From david at midrange.com  Wed Jan  2 11:02:12 2019
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 10:02:12 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 'Warm up' an IP when moving a mailing list server
 to a new host?
Message-ID: <q0in61$a48$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Folks:

This isn't specific to Mailman ... but is related to mailing list servers in general.

I've had my mailing lists on an in-house server for a long time (more than 15 years).  I'm currently able to deliver mail to Yahoo without any problems.

I've been trying to move the mailing list server to an Amazon VPS ... and, of course, this means that the IP that I'm sending from is changing.

Unfortunately, Yahoo has started deferring mail delivery because the new IP doesn't have a reputation (although it's not on any black lists that I'm aware of).

The Yahoo postmaster support people are telling me that I should 'warm up' the IP by sending some mail to Yahoo from the new IP and continue to send from the old IP.

Any suggestions on how that might be accomplished?

The only thing I can think of is to move a few of my lists over to the new, do some apache contortion to proxy requests for the moved lists to the new host, and other rsync stuff to keep my archives in sync.

Yahoo is a major PITA.

david

-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding 615 miles (Yes, you read that right) in the American Diabetes Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax-deductible donation to my ride by visiting https://gmane.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map ... https://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From odhiambo at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 12:36:55 2019
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 20:36:55 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing the mailman access url
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WMBjsZyC8B=U7JA4zzamDZmQrFkV7n6mGq-09+LR5cE7Q@mail.gmail.com>

I have manually installed mailman and moved the files. This is on the same
server.
Now my problem is the urls:
I have http://FQDN/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/LISTNAME which I would like to
change to http://FQDN/mailman/admin/skunkworks - ideally, just eliminating
the /cgi-bin/ bit.

-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223
"Oh, the cruft.", grep ^[^#] :-)

From phils at caerllewys.net  Thu Jan  3 13:49:43 2019
From: phils at caerllewys.net (Phil Stracchino)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 13:49:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing the mailman access url
In-Reply-To: <CAAdA2WMBjsZyC8B=U7JA4zzamDZmQrFkV7n6mGq-09+LR5cE7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAdA2WMBjsZyC8B=U7JA4zzamDZmQrFkV7n6mGq-09+LR5cE7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44ddeb93-ee76-80f8-7e1f-cddabc7c74d9@caerllewys.net>

On 1/3/19 12:36 PM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> I have manually installed mailman and moved the files. This is on the same
> server.
> Now my problem is the urls:
> I have http://FQDN/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/LISTNAME which I would like to
> change to http://FQDN/mailman/admin/skunkworks - ideally, just eliminating
> the /cgi-bin/ bit.
> 

This does not look like a Mailman configuration issue.  This is
something easily done in your Apache configuration.

Try this:

    ScriptAlias /mailman /usr/lib64/mailman/cgi-bin/

(or whatever your actual path is)

    <Location /mailman>
        SetHandler cgi-script
        Options +MultiViews
        Require all granted
    </Location>


-- 
  Phil Stracchino
  Babylon Communications
  phils at caerllewys.net
  phil at co.ordinate.org
  Landline: +1.603.293.8485
  Mobile:   +1.603.998.6958

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jan  3 14:21:07 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 11:21:07 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing the mailman access url
In-Reply-To: <CAAdA2WMBjsZyC8B=U7JA4zzamDZmQrFkV7n6mGq-09+LR5cE7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAdA2WMBjsZyC8B=U7JA4zzamDZmQrFkV7n6mGq-09+LR5cE7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <680362e7-06e1-2583-86e8-d05f62585dc1@msapiro.net>

On 1/3/19 9:36 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> I have manually installed mailman and moved the files. This is on the same
> server.
> Now my problem is the urls:
> I have http://FQDN/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/LISTNAME which I would like to
> change to http://FQDN/mailman/admin/skunkworks - ideally, just eliminating
> the /cgi-bin/ bit.


You need a couple of things. You need to configure your web server to do
the right thing. For example, with Apache you may have

ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/mailman/       /path/to/mailman/cgi-bin/

and that needs to be changed to

ScriptAlias /mailman/       /path/to/mailman/cgi-bin/

You also need to change something like

DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/cgi-bin/mailman/'

to

DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'

and run fix_url on all lists. See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030616>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From list at ziobro.rochester.ny.us  Fri Jan  4 05:40:16 2019
From: list at ziobro.rochester.ny.us (Jim Ziobro)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 05:40:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mm-handler same as postfix-to-mailman.py
Message-ID: <51438abd-a857-3d73-2877-f0e6d879cee8@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>

Mm-handler works well when mail-lists are in a separate domain.

I ran across postfix-to-mailman.py while researching mailman to postfix 
connections.? I realized it performs the same function as mm-handler.? I 
changed mm-handler to be a drop in as a replacement for 
postfix-to-mailman.py 
<https://github.com/fauria/docker-mailman/blob/master/centos7/postfix-to-mailman.py>. 
It is under:

http://sw.ziobro.info/mm-handler/

I did a test install of mailman with Postfix to test it.? It worked.

I also setup a Mailman to Postfix connection using the aliases method as 
described in the documentation.? That worked fine also. I don't use 
Postfix but using the postfix-to-mailman.py seemed a little more obvious 
than setting up through the aliases method. The Postfix package on 
CentOS 7 even had comments where the mailman transport entry would go. 
Configuring is especially tough if you are not familiar with Python. :-)

Setting up mailing lists in a separate domain has a nice administrative 
appeal.? I did a little more research to see how popular that method 
might be.? I got a list of 1922 US universities and 457 have a host 
"lists...." and 191 have a host "list..." in their DNS.? I surveyed a 
few and ran across: Mailman, Lyris, Sympa, Listserv, Majordomo, and 
Google groups.? Many universities outsource their Email to Outlook which 
has it own Group capability.

Running mail list software is clearly popular.? Both mm-handler and 
postfix-to-mailman.py are contributed code.? The folks who package the 
various tools add glue to make them easy to use.? It looks like both 
Sympa <https://sympa-community.github.io/manual/>and Mailman have very 
similar requirements.? Maybe time to work together?

I can hook up any mail system.? Just give me the list of mail-lists and 
tell me how to inject messages.? Glue will be more specific to a Mailer 
and OS than either Mailman or Sympa.? I think we get a benefit if we 
make a clean interface between Mailman and its feeding MTA.? We can then 
eliminate some of the hacks like mm-handler.

I have some ideas for Mailman2.? I'll follow up.

Ciao,
//Z\\
Jim Ziobro



From dnewman at networktest.com  Thu Jan  3 17:18:11 2019
From: dnewman at networktest.com (David Newman)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 14:18:11 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] admindb pages redirect to localhost
Message-ID: <e17eddd7-6d02-f92a-d702-045c3ffca016@networktest.com>

FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE-p1, mailman-2.1.29_5, postfix-3.3.2_1,1,
nginx-1.14.2_3,2

Greetings. Could use help understanding two issues after migrating from
Apache to nginx:

1. All Mailman web pages load as expect except links from the admindb
page (for pending moderator request), which redirect to localhost.

For example, for the admindb page for the list networktest-announce on
the host lists.networktest.com, the link for "Click here to reload this
page" goes here:

https://localhost/mailman/admindb/networktest-announce

Similar localhost links appear in admin emails about pending moderator
requests.

I've pasted below snippets from mm_cfg.py and the Nginx config -- please
let me know if you need other info.

I suspect the issue may be a lack of an Nginx location for admindb, but
I'm not sure how to address that.

2. Also on the admindb page, clicking the submit button to tend to
pending requests triggers a warning in Firefox that the info is about to
be submitted insecurely, even though the admindb URL begins with
https:// - how to fix this?

Thanks in advance for troubleshooting clues on both points.

dn

mm_cfg.py mods:

##################################################
# Put YOUR site-specific settings below this line.
MTA = 'Postfix'
DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'https://%s/mailman/'
PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL = 'https://%(hostname)s/pipermail/%(listname)s'
PRIVATE_ARCHIVE_URL = '/mailman/private'

# Clear the Defaults.py VIRTUAL_HOSTS entry
# VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()

# other vhosts omitted from following line
POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = [ 'lists.networktest.com' ]

# other vhosts omitted after following line
add_virtualhost('lists.networktest.com','lists.networktest.com')

DEB_LISTMASTER = 'postmaster at networktest.com'

ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST = Yes

-----

lists.networktest.com.conf in Nginx:

root at mail8:/usr/local/etc/nginx/vhosts # cat lists.networktest.com.conf

server {
    listen 80;
    server_name lists.networktest.com;

    # Lets encrypt
    location ^~ /.well-known/acme-challenge/ {
        alias /usr/local/www/.well-known/acme-challenge/;
    }

    # Redirect other HTTP connections to HTTPS
    location / {
        return  301 https://$server_name$request_uri;
    }

    access_log  /var/log/lists.networktest.com.access.log;
    error_log  /var/log/lists.networktest.com.error.log;

}

server {

    listen       443;
    server_name  lists.networktest.com;

    access_log  /var/log/lists.networktest.com.access.log;
    error_log  /var/log/lists.networktest.com.error.log;

	ssl                  on;
    ssl_certificate      /etc/ssl/certs/lists.networktest.com.pem;
    ssl_certificate_key  /etc/ssl/priv/lists.networktest.com.key;
    ssl_session_timeout  5m;
    ssl_protocols  TLSv1 TLSv1.1 TLSv1.2;
    ssl_ciphers  HIGH:!aNULL:!MD5;
    ssl_prefer_server_ciphers   on;

    root   /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin;

    location = / {
        rewrite ^ /mailman/listinfo permanent;
    }

    location / {
        rewrite ^ /mailman$uri;
    }

    location ~ ^/mailman(/[^/]*)(/.*)?$ {
        fastcgi_split_path_info (^/mailman/[^/]*)(.*)$;
        include fastcgi_params;
        fastcgi_param GATEWAY_INTERFACE CGI/1.1;
        fastcgi_param SCRIPT_FILENAME $document_root$1;
        fastcgi_param PATH_INFO $fastcgi_path_info;
        fastcgi_param PATH_TRANSLATED $document_root$2;
        fastcgi_pass  unix:/var/run/fcgiwrap/fcgiwrap.sock;
    }

    location /images/mailman {
        alias /usr/local/mailman/icons;
    }

    location /icons {
        alias /usr/local/mailman/icons;
    }

    location /pipermail {
        alias /usr/local/mailman/archives/public;
        autoindex on;
    }
}

From ricardo at americasnet.com  Fri Jan  4 12:55:10 2019
From: ricardo at americasnet.com (Ricardo Kleemann)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 09:55:10 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] question on bounce processing
Message-ID: <CALR4AhSCHQZ10K_YUaVogd6QWoyBuWOUbUB23KtfjwzLRv6U5w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Where should I look at for trying to figure out why particular members are
being dropped off? I have members receiving the excessive bounce messages
but I'm not finding much in the mail log relative to excessive bounces for
the email address (I'm probably not looking for the correct bounce lines in
the log)

I'm running Mailman 2.1.26 on Ubuntu 18.04 and postfix

thanks
Ricardo

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jan  4 14:58:40 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 11:58:40 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] question on bounce processing
In-Reply-To: <CALR4AhSCHQZ10K_YUaVogd6QWoyBuWOUbUB23KtfjwzLRv6U5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALR4AhSCHQZ10K_YUaVogd6QWoyBuWOUbUB23KtfjwzLRv6U5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a272d6f6-7dcf-b385-fc53-4817b07053e0@msapiro.net>

On 1/4/19 9:55 AM, Ricardo Kleemann wrote:
> 
> Where should I look at for trying to figure out why particular members are
> being dropped off? I have members receiving the excessive bounce messages
> but I'm not finding much in the mail log relative to excessive bounces for
> the email address (I'm probably not looking for the correct bounce lines in
> the log)
> 
> I'm running Mailman 2.1.26 on Ubuntu 18.04 and postfix


Ensure that Bounce processing -> bounce_notify_owner_on_disable is set
to Yes. Then when the user's delivery is disabled, the list owner will
receive a notice with a copy of the bounce DSN.

Or, with Mailman 2.1.19+ you can set
bounce_notify_owner_on_bounce_increment to Yes to get a notice every
time a user's bounce score is incremented.

This info should also be in the mail log if the bounces are reported by
the local MTA, but not if they are reported by a remote MTA. With
Postfix, look for lines with "status=bounce"

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jan  4 15:19:07 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 12:19:07 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] admindb pages redirect to localhost
In-Reply-To: <e17eddd7-6d02-f92a-d702-045c3ffca016@networktest.com>
References: <e17eddd7-6d02-f92a-d702-045c3ffca016@networktest.com>
Message-ID: <8af1dddd-5196-4e8a-d0ce-40e17e08f957@msapiro.net>

On 1/3/19 2:18 PM, David Newman wrote:
> FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE-p1, mailman-2.1.29_5, postfix-3.3.2_1,1,
> nginx-1.14.2_3,2
> 
> Greetings. Could use help understanding two issues after migrating from
> Apache to nginx:
> 
> 1. All Mailman web pages load as expect except links from the admindb
> page (for pending moderator request), which redirect to localhost.
...
> 2. Also on the admindb page, clicking the submit button to tend to
> pending requests triggers a warning in Firefox that the info is about to
> be submitted insecurely, even though the admindb URL begins with
> https:// - how to fix this?


I'm only answering the second issue here because it may also answer the
first. The issue here is the action= URL in the form tag has an http
(not https) scheme.

But, you have


> mm_cfg.py mods:
> 
> ##################################################
> # Put YOUR site-specific settings below this line.
> MTA = 'Postfix'
> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'https://%s/mailman/'


This indicates you need to run fix_url to update existing lists with
this information. See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030616>.

If this doesn't fix the first issue too, let us know and we'll look further.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From ricardo at americasnet.com  Fri Jan  4 15:21:38 2019
From: ricardo at americasnet.com (Ricardo Kleemann)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 12:21:38 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] question on bounce processing
In-Reply-To: <a272d6f6-7dcf-b385-fc53-4817b07053e0@msapiro.net>
References: <CALR4AhSCHQZ10K_YUaVogd6QWoyBuWOUbUB23KtfjwzLRv6U5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <a272d6f6-7dcf-b385-fc53-4817b07053e0@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CALR4AhTXxcLUOuLpwdU1N+i5FRpKP4KKCVBf7RJS=FaVjnmjXw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Mark.

Is there a way to have the bounce notification and info be sent to a
different email address (like me instead of the list owner)? It would be
too technical to have them sent to the owner.

On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 11:59 AM Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 1/4/19 9:55 AM, Ricardo Kleemann wrote:
> >
> > Where should I look at for trying to figure out why particular members
> are
> > being dropped off? I have members receiving the excessive bounce messages
> > but I'm not finding much in the mail log relative to excessive bounces
> for
> > the email address (I'm probably not looking for the correct bounce lines
> in
> > the log)
> >
> > I'm running Mailman 2.1.26 on Ubuntu 18.04 and postfix
>
>
> Ensure that Bounce processing -> bounce_notify_owner_on_disable is set
> to Yes. Then when the user's delivery is disabled, the list owner will
> receive a notice with a copy of the bounce DSN.
>
> Or, with Mailman 2.1.19+ you can set
> bounce_notify_owner_on_bounce_increment to Yes to get a notice every
> time a user's bounce score is incremented.
>
> This info should also be in the mail log if the bounces are reported by
> the local MTA, but not if they are reported by a remote MTA. With
> Postfix, look for lines with "status=bounce"
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/ricardo%40americasnet.com
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jan  4 15:37:36 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 12:37:36 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] question on bounce processing
In-Reply-To: <CALR4AhTXxcLUOuLpwdU1N+i5FRpKP4KKCVBf7RJS=FaVjnmjXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALR4AhSCHQZ10K_YUaVogd6QWoyBuWOUbUB23KtfjwzLRv6U5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <a272d6f6-7dcf-b385-fc53-4817b07053e0@msapiro.net>
 <CALR4AhTXxcLUOuLpwdU1N+i5FRpKP4KKCVBf7RJS=FaVjnmjXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ed4d7b70-4b47-852a-1c65-593628b1386b@msapiro.net>

On 1/4/19 12:21 PM, Ricardo Kleemann wrote:
> Thanks Mark.
> 
> Is there a way to have the bounce notification and info be sent to a
> different email address (like me instead of the list owner)? It would be
> too technical to have them sent to the owner.


The best you can do is add your own address to the list's 'owner'
attribute. Then you will get the notices too along with all other owner
notifications. Anything else requires modifying the definition of the
__sendAdminBounceNotice() method in Mailman/Bouncer.py.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dnewman at networktest.com  Fri Jan  4 19:40:55 2019
From: dnewman at networktest.com (David Newman)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 16:40:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] admindb pages redirect to localhost
In-Reply-To: <8af1dddd-5196-4e8a-d0ce-40e17e08f957@msapiro.net>
References: <e17eddd7-6d02-f92a-d702-045c3ffca016@networktest.com>
 <8af1dddd-5196-4e8a-d0ce-40e17e08f957@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <0d79de2f-786e-8c8c-2524-f9adc1e2c61a@networktest.com>



On 1/4/19 12:19 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 1/3/19 2:18 PM, David Newman wrote:
>> FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE-p1, mailman-2.1.29_5, postfix-3.3.2_1,1,
>> nginx-1.14.2_3,2
>>
>> Greetings. Could use help understanding two issues after migrating from
>> Apache to nginx:
>>
>> 1. All Mailman web pages load as expect except links from the admindb
>> page (for pending moderator request), which redirect to localhost.
> ...
>> 2. Also on the admindb page, clicking the submit button to tend to
>> pending requests triggers a warning in Firefox that the info is about to
>> be submitted insecurely, even though the admindb URL begins with
>> https:// - how to fix this?
> 
> 
> I'm only answering the second issue here because it may also answer the
> first. The issue here is the action= URL in the form tag has an http
> (not https) scheme.
> 
> But, you have
> 
> 
>> mm_cfg.py mods:
>>
>> ##################################################
>> # Put YOUR site-specific settings below this line.
>> MTA = 'Postfix'
>> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'https://%s/mailman/'
> 
> 
> This indicates you need to run fix_url to update existing lists with
> this information. See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030616>.
> 
> If this doesn't fix the first issue too, let us know and we'll look further.
> 

Actually, the localhost issue began _after_ I ran "bin/withlist -l -a -r
fix_url" from the /usr/local/mailman directory and restarted the Mailman
service.

Thanks in advance for further clues on getting both issues sorted out.

dn




From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jan  4 20:10:01 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 17:10:01 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] admindb pages redirect to localhost
In-Reply-To: <0d79de2f-786e-8c8c-2524-f9adc1e2c61a@networktest.com>
References: <e17eddd7-6d02-f92a-d702-045c3ffca016@networktest.com>
 <8af1dddd-5196-4e8a-d0ce-40e17e08f957@msapiro.net>
 <0d79de2f-786e-8c8c-2524-f9adc1e2c61a@networktest.com>
Message-ID: <ccdedda4-e53c-3bdc-3c09-4c9fc58dee9f@msapiro.net>

On 1/4/19 4:40 PM, David Newman wrote:
> 
> Actually, the localhost issue began _after_ I ran "bin/withlist -l -a -r
> fix_url" from the /usr/local/mailman directory and restarted the Mailman
> service.


In your OP you said

> mm_cfg.py mods:
> 
> ##################################################
> # Put YOUR site-specific settings below this line.
> MTA = 'Postfix'
> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'https://%s/mailman/'
> PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL = 'https://%(hostname)s/pipermail/%(listname)s'
> PRIVATE_ARCHIVE_URL = '/mailman/private'
> 
> # Clear the Defaults.py VIRTUAL_HOSTS entry
> # VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()
> 
> # other vhosts omitted from following line
> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = [ 'lists.networktest.com' ]
> 
> # other vhosts omitted after following line
> add_virtualhost('lists.networktest.com','lists.networktest.com')
> 
> DEB_LISTMASTER = 'postmaster at networktest.com'
> 
> ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST = Yes

Absent from this is

DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.networktest.com'
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'lists.networktest.com'

If those are set to 'localhost' in Defaults.py, that could explain some
of this.

However, you also have comments about "other vhosts omitted". If you
actually have multiple vhosts, you can't run

bin/withlist -l -a -r fix_url

because that will set every list to whatever DEFAULT_URL_HOST is. You
need to run

bin/withlist -l -r fix_url LISTNAME --urlhost=HOST_FOR_THAT_LIST

for each list.

What do you get from

for list in `bin/list_lists --bare`; do
echo $list
bin/dumpdb lists/$list/config.pck|grep \'web_page_url\'
done


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dnewman at networktest.com  Fri Jan  4 20:20:54 2019
From: dnewman at networktest.com (David Newman)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 17:20:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] admindb pages redirect to localhost
In-Reply-To: <0d79de2f-786e-8c8c-2524-f9adc1e2c61a@networktest.com>
References: <e17eddd7-6d02-f92a-d702-045c3ffca016@networktest.com>
 <8af1dddd-5196-4e8a-d0ce-40e17e08f957@msapiro.net>
 <0d79de2f-786e-8c8c-2524-f9adc1e2c61a@networktest.com>
Message-ID: <cc8d8f38-d4ae-1e82-3f94-8d5066256442@networktest.com>

On 1/4/19 4:40 PM, David Newman wrote:
> 
> 
> On 1/4/19 12:19 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 1/3/19 2:18 PM, David Newman wrote:
>>> FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE-p1, mailman-2.1.29_5, postfix-3.3.2_1,1,
>>> nginx-1.14.2_3,2
>>>
>>> Greetings. Could use help understanding two issues after migrating from
>>> Apache to nginx:
>>>
>>> 1. All Mailman web pages load as expect except links from the admindb
>>> page (for pending moderator request), which redirect to localhost.
>> ...
>>> 2. Also on the admindb page, clicking the submit button to tend to
>>> pending requests triggers a warning in Firefox that the info is about to
>>> be submitted insecurely, even though the admindb URL begins with
>>> https:// - how to fix this?
>>
>>
>> I'm only answering the second issue here because it may also answer the
>> first. The issue here is the action= URL in the form tag has an http
>> (not https) scheme.
>>
>> But, you have
>>
>>
>>> mm_cfg.py mods:
>>>
>>> ##################################################
>>> # Put YOUR site-specific settings below this line.
>>> MTA = 'Postfix'
>>> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'https://%s/mailman/'
>>
>>
>> This indicates you need to run fix_url to update existing lists with
>> this information. See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030616>.
>>
>> If this doesn't fix the first issue too, let us know and we'll look further.
>>
> 
> Actually, the localhost issue began _after_ I ran "bin/withlist -l -a -r
> fix_url" from the /usr/local/mailman directory and restarted the Mailman
> service.

Answering my own question: That command as written was a really bad idea.

There are multiple virtual hosts on this server, and no lists defined on
the server's canonical hostname. Running fix_url without calling out
each virtual host resulted in 'localhost' instead.

When I reran the command multiple times with the -u switch like this:

bin/withlist -l  -r fix_url listname -u lists.vhost1.com
bin/withlist -l  -r fix_url listname -u lists.vhost2.com
...
bin/withlist -l  -r fix_url listname -u lists.vhostN.com

and restarted mailman, all was good with the world once again.

Moral: If you have virtual hosts, run fix_url multiple times and use the
-u switch multiple times, once for each list and each virtual host.

Sorry for the waste of bandwidth.

dn



> 
> Thanks in advance for further clues on getting both issues sorted out.
> 
> dn
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/dnewman%40networktest.com
> 

From dnewman at networktest.com  Fri Jan  4 20:22:24 2019
From: dnewman at networktest.com (David Newman)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 17:22:24 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] admindb pages redirect to localhost
In-Reply-To: <ccdedda4-e53c-3bdc-3c09-4c9fc58dee9f@msapiro.net>
References: <e17eddd7-6d02-f92a-d702-045c3ffca016@networktest.com>
 <8af1dddd-5196-4e8a-d0ce-40e17e08f957@msapiro.net>
 <0d79de2f-786e-8c8c-2524-f9adc1e2c61a@networktest.com>
 <ccdedda4-e53c-3bdc-3c09-4c9fc58dee9f@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <87a38ba3-1a17-f6b7-09f4-a1c8a0e75d8f@networktest.com>



On 1/4/19 5:10 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 1/4/19 4:40 PM, David Newman wrote:
>>
>> Actually, the localhost issue began _after_ I ran "bin/withlist -l -a -r
>> fix_url" from the /usr/local/mailman directory and restarted the Mailman
>> service.
> 
> 
> In your OP you said
> 
>> mm_cfg.py mods:
>>
>> ##################################################
>> # Put YOUR site-specific settings below this line.
>> MTA = 'Postfix'
>> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'https://%s/mailman/'
>> PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL = 'https://%(hostname)s/pipermail/%(listname)s'
>> PRIVATE_ARCHIVE_URL = '/mailman/private'
>>
>> # Clear the Defaults.py VIRTUAL_HOSTS entry
>> # VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()
>>
>> # other vhosts omitted from following line
>> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = [ 'lists.networktest.com' ]
>>
>> # other vhosts omitted after following line
>> add_virtualhost('lists.networktest.com','lists.networktest.com')
>>
>> DEB_LISTMASTER = 'postmaster at networktest.com'
>>
>> ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST = Yes
> 
> Absent from this is
> 
> DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.networktest.com'
> DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'lists.networktest.com'
> 
> If those are set to 'localhost' in Defaults.py, that could explain some
> of this.
> 
> However, you also have comments about "other vhosts omitted". If you
> actually have multiple vhosts, you can't run
> 
> bin/withlist -l -a -r fix_url
> 
> because that will set every list to whatever DEFAULT_URL_HOST is. You
> need to run
> 
> bin/withlist -l -r fix_url LISTNAME --urlhost=HOST_FOR_THAT_LIST

Yup. Sorry I missed this.

dn

> 
> for each list.
> 
> What do you get from
> 
> for list in `bin/list_lists --bare`; do
> echo $list
> bin/dumpdb lists/$list/config.pck|grep \'web_page_url\'
> done
> 
> 

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Sun Jan  6 17:47:01 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 15:47:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mm-handler same as postfix-to-mailman.py
In-Reply-To: <51438abd-a857-3d73-2877-f0e6d879cee8@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
References: <51438abd-a857-3d73-2877-f0e6d879cee8@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
Message-ID: <fe5cf02d-67cc-f295-04dc-16c80c004b69@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

Hi Jim,

On 1/4/19 3:40 AM, Jim Ziobro wrote:
> Setting up mailing lists in a separate domain has a nice administrative 
> appeal.

Agreed.  That's how I've always done it.

If I ever cared enough, I could set up a forward (et al) from 
list at example.net to list at lists.example.net.  Maybe not automatic.  But 
it does function.  (Or it did the last time I tried.)  -  I think it did 
require adding an alternate address for the list to recognize itself as.

> I did a little more research to see how popular that method might be. 
> I got a list of 1922 US universities and 457 have a host "lists...." and 
> 191 have a host "list..." in their DNS.  I surveyed a few and ran 
> across: Mailman, Lyris, Sympa, Listserv, Majordomo, and Google groups. 
> Many universities outsource their Email to Outlook which has it own 
> Group capability.

Interesting.

> I can hook up any mail system.? Just give me the list of mail-lists and 
> tell me how to inject messages.? Glue will be more specific to a Mailer 
> and OS than either Mailman or Sympa.? I think we get a benefit if we 
> make a clean interface between Mailman and its feeding MTA.

Agreed.

> We can then eliminate some of the hacks like mm-handler.

Maybe.  But I think the hacks just move elsewhere, especially if you 
want other features.

> I have some ideas for Mailman2.? I'll follow up.

I'd like to see some sort of integration into the Mailer (MTA) such that 
it can do some simple filtering and reject the message at SMTP time 
instead of needing to bounce it after the fact.

I think it should be somewhat easy to test the SMTP envelope sender to 
see if it's subscribed to a list that is the SMTP envelope recipient. 
If the sender is not a subscriber the MTA can reject the message.

It wouldn't be as simple, but I think similar could be done with the 
DATA phase of the SMTP transaction to filter body contents.  Though I'm 
not sure how to parse a message to see if it should be rejected without 
actually having the message pass through part of Mailman.

I also think that an LMTP and / or SMTP interface to Mailman would be 
nice.  I think that provides more features at the SMTP / DSN (maybe MDN) 
level than STDIN into Mailman can provide.

Nice work Jim.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From odhiambo at gmail.com  Mon Jan  7 04:22:09 2019
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:22:09 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Install mailman-2.1.z with python3.6
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WM6a0E4RLzRyBft6L0JYCBKbO-4ZB3Sw8oC7Ahqs4d3hg@mail.gmail.com>

I need to install Mailman2.1 using python3.x, but I have had some problem.

On my Ubuntu-18.04 server, I have both python2.7 and python3.6.
Now, everything is all fine with python2.7, but when I use python3.6, it
bombs out:


root at lists:/home/wash/Mailman/2.1.29/mailman-2.1.29# ./configure
--with-cgi-gid=33 --with-mail-gid=117 --with-python=/usr/bin/python3.6
checking for --with-python... /usr/bin/python3.6
checking Python interpreter... /usr/bin/python3.6
checking Python version... 3.6.7
checking dnspython... ok
checking Python's email package... Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "conftest.py", line 8, in <module>
    version = tuple(int(v) for v in email.__version__.split('.'))
AttributeError: module 'email' has no attribute '__version__'
cat: conftest.out: No such file or directory

checking Japanese codecs... Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "conftest.py", line 2, in <module>
    unicode('OK', 'iso-2022-jp')
NameError: name 'unicode' is not defined
cat: conftest.out: No such file or directory

checking Korean codecs... Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "conftest.py", line 2, in <module>
    unicode('OK', 'euc-kr')
NameError: name 'unicode' is not defined
cat: conftest.out: No such file or directory

checking that Python has a working distutils... yes
checking for a BSD-compatible install... /usr/bin/install -c
checking whether make sets $(MAKE)... yes
checking for true... /bin/true
checking for --without-gcc... no
checking for gcc... gcc
checking whether the C compiler works... yes
checking for C compiler default output file name... a.out
checking for suffix of executables...
checking whether we are cross compiling... no
checking for suffix of object files... o
checking whether we are using the GNU C compiler... yes
checking whether gcc accepts -g... yes
checking for gcc option to accept ISO C89... none needed
checking whether #! works in shell scripts... yes
checking for --with-var-prefix... no
checking for --with-permcheck... yes
checking for --with-username... mailman
checking for user name "mailman"... okay
checking for --with-groupname... mailman
checking for group name "mailman"... okay
checking permissions on /usr/local/mailman...   File "conftest.py", line 17
    if mailmangid <> gid:
                   ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax
cat: conftest.out: No such file or directory
configure: error:
***** Installation directory /usr/local/mailman is not configured properly!


-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223
"Oh, the cruft.", grep ^[^#] :-)

From dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu  Mon Jan  7 11:59:18 2019
From: dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu (Dmitri Maziuk)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 10:59:18 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mm-handler same as postfix-to-mailman.py
In-Reply-To: <fe5cf02d-67cc-f295-04dc-16c80c004b69@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <51438abd-a857-3d73-2877-f0e6d879cee8@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
 <fe5cf02d-67cc-f295-04dc-16c80c004b69@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <20190107105918.dd1f04080a3192d66ad5a0a9@bmrb.wisc.edu>

On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 15:47:01 -0700
Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users <mailman-users at python.org> wrote:

> Hi Jim,
> 
> On 1/4/19 3:40 AM, Jim Ziobro wrote:
> > Setting up mailing lists in a separate domain has a nice
> > administrative appeal.

We used to run irix whose sendmail sent every message from host.domain
and every A record had to have an adjacent MX record for e-mail to even
work. That way lies madness.

> > I did a little more research to see how popular that method might
> > be. I got a list of 1922 US universities and 457 have a host
> > "lists...." and 191 have a host "list..." in their DNS.  I surveyed
> > a few and ran across: Mailman, Lyris, Sympa, Listserv, Majordomo,
> > and Google groups. Many universities outsource their Email to
> > Outlook which has it own Group capability.

Our university has lyris @ lists.uw, googlegoups, and has recently
bought into lookout'365! as well. While we run our own mailman
instances.

We have "lists" in our little niche. It's the web front-end, our list
traffic comes from @domain. 

So 500 out of 2000 universities having "list(s)" in DNS doesn't really
mean all that much.

> I think it should be somewhat easy to test the SMTP envelope sender
> to see if it's subscribed to a list that is the SMTP envelope
> recipient. If the sender is not a subscriber the MTA can reject the
> message.

Rather trivial with postfix but a) we have bona fide subscribers
posting rom their gmail instead of subscribed From: -- I want those to
get moderated instead of bounced, b) it is of course subject to
spoofing, and c) how much of a problem is it IRL?

In our -- admittedly very lightly loaded -- domains, it's RBL and
fail2ban that seem to provide best bang for the buck.

-- 
Dmitri Maziuk <dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jan  7 12:35:57 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 09:35:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Install mailman-2.1.z with python3.6
In-Reply-To: <CAAdA2WM6a0E4RLzRyBft6L0JYCBKbO-4ZB3Sw8oC7Ahqs4d3hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAdA2WM6a0E4RLzRyBft6L0JYCBKbO-4ZB3Sw8oC7Ahqs4d3hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <046b24ee-a55e-a556-1b62-261e1c6161f7@msapiro.net>

On 1/7/19 1:22 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> I need to install Mailman2.1 using python3.x, but I have had some problem.
> 
> On my Ubuntu-18.04 server, I have both python2.7 and python3.6.
> Now, everything is all fine with python2.7, but when I use python3.6, it
> bombs out:


Which is expected because Mailman 2.1 does not support Python 3 and
never will.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Mon Jan  7 15:13:28 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:13:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mm-handler same as postfix-to-mailman.py
In-Reply-To: <20190107105918.dd1f04080a3192d66ad5a0a9@bmrb.wisc.edu>
References: <51438abd-a857-3d73-2877-f0e6d879cee8@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
 <fe5cf02d-67cc-f295-04dc-16c80c004b69@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20190107105918.dd1f04080a3192d66ad5a0a9@bmrb.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <daf8370c-6ca2-ce54-e7e7-b489bbead3b1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 01/07/2019 09:59 AM, Dmitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users wrote:
> We used to run irix whose sendmail sent every message from host.domain 
> and every A record had to have an adjacent MX record for e-mail to even 
> work. That way lies madness.

Hum.

I think Sendmail (and other MTAs that I've tested) default to 
user at host.domain too.  But that's just a default that's easy to change.

I thought that SMTP allowed for falling back to an A record to find 
where to send messages for host.domain.  Or are you saying that you used 
MX records to route email to a different machine, possibly a mail hub?

I also thought that SMTP would iterate up through the right hand side of 
email addresses looking for MX / A records and trying to connect to an 
SMTP server.  Thus it would be possible to have an MX record for domain 
and all hosts there in would cascade up to said MX record.

Or is all of this vagaries of SMTP and too unpredictable / unreliable 
and best avoided?

> Rather trivial with postfix but a) we have bona fide subscribers posting 
> rom their gmail instead of subscribed From: -- I want those to get 
> moderated instead of bounced, b) it is of course subject to spoofing, 
> and c) how much of a problem is it IRL?

A) Fair enough.  I would expect there to be a per-list tunable to either 
reject or not-reject messages based on list membership.  In the scenario 
that you describe, the messages would not be rejected based on sending 
email address and assuming the message passes other tests would be 
passed further into Mailman.

B) I would hope that other things like SPF / DKIM / DMARC would help 
reduce this considerably.  But I'm not going to hope enough to hold my 
breath.

C) ?\_(?)_/?  I suspect it's highly mailing list dependent.  -  I 
personally like to do as much as possible during the SMTP transaction. 
So if there is a reasonable way to apply some Mailman filtering logic to 
applicable messages, why not do it?

> In our -- admittedly very lightly loaded -- domains, it's RBL and fail2ban 
> that seem to provide best bang for the buck.

*nod*



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu  Mon Jan  7 15:32:47 2019
From: dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu (Dimitri Maziuk)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:32:47 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mm-handler same as postfix-to-mailman.py
In-Reply-To: <daf8370c-6ca2-ce54-e7e7-b489bbead3b1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <51438abd-a857-3d73-2877-f0e6d879cee8@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
 <fe5cf02d-67cc-f295-04dc-16c80c004b69@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20190107105918.dd1f04080a3192d66ad5a0a9@bmrb.wisc.edu>
 <daf8370c-6ca2-ce54-e7e7-b489bbead3b1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <4b319fc1-b797-03af-36f0-6c07b1ec32db@bmrb.wisc.edu>

On 1/7/19 2:13 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:

> I think Sendmail (and other MTAs that I've tested) default to
> user at host.domain too.? But that's just a default that's easy to change.

LOL. Not on IRIX it wasn't.

> Or are you saying that you used
> MX records to route email to a different machine, possibly a mail hub?

That. If you want a single MX accepting mail for the Internet, you have
to have virtual domains on it for your every host, and make sure SMTP
and/or DNS reliable routes addres at host.domain to address at domain. Which
may be easier than I think, I never tried...

Granted we're talking "just one" @list.domain here. Well, maybe also
@list.domain... and then by strong mathematical induction we arrive at
the above.

> B) I would hope that other things like SPF / DKIM / DMARC would help
> reduce this considerably.? But I'm not going to hope enough to hold my
> breath.

But then you wouldn't need it in mailman: if it's spoofed as per dmarc,
you just reject it regardless ot its destination.

> C) ?\_(?)_/?? I suspect it's highly mailing list dependent.? -? I
> personally like to do as much as possible during the SMTP transaction.
> So if there is a reasonable way to apply some Mailman filtering logic to
> applicable messages, why not do it?

Like I said, it's probably whooping 10 extra lines of python -- as long
as you use postfix. The question is how much work it is to support other
MTAs.

-- 
Dimitri Maziuk
Programmer/sysadmin
BioMagResBank, UW-Madison -- http://www.bmrb.wisc.edu

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From odhiambo at gmail.com  Mon Jan  7 16:19:28 2019
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 00:19:28 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Install mailman-2.1.z with python3.6
In-Reply-To: <046b24ee-a55e-a556-1b62-261e1c6161f7@msapiro.net>
References: <CAAdA2WM6a0E4RLzRyBft6L0JYCBKbO-4ZB3Sw8oC7Ahqs4d3hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <046b24ee-a55e-a556-1b62-261e1c6161f7@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WM5c6RLe1x1UZUCr5S+8Hs7GKW+wjozrTYD5vihSXyg9w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 20:37, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 1/7/19 1:22 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> > I need to install Mailman2.1 using python3.x, but I have had some
> problem.
> >
> > On my Ubuntu-18.04 server, I have both python2.7 and python3.6.
> > Now, everything is all fine with python2.7, but when I use python3.6, it
> > bombs out:
>
>
> Which is expected because Mailman 2.1 does not support Python 3 and
> never will.
>

Noted! I thought I could eliminate python2 from my server :)


-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223
"Oh, the cruft.", grep ^[^#] :-)

From phils at caerllewys.net  Mon Jan  7 17:58:32 2019
From: phils at caerllewys.net (Phil Stracchino)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 17:58:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Install mailman-2.1.z with python3.6
In-Reply-To: <CAAdA2WM5c6RLe1x1UZUCr5S+8Hs7GKW+wjozrTYD5vihSXyg9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAdA2WM6a0E4RLzRyBft6L0JYCBKbO-4ZB3Sw8oC7Ahqs4d3hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <046b24ee-a55e-a556-1b62-261e1c6161f7@msapiro.net>
 <CAAdA2WM5c6RLe1x1UZUCr5S+8Hs7GKW+wjozrTYD5vihSXyg9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bddaa4ea-283e-1b0d-1846-1b50bc706308@caerllewys.net>

On 1/7/19 4:19 PM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 20:37, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>> Which is expected because Mailman 2.1 does not support Python 3 and
>> never will.
> 
> Noted! I thought I could eliminate python2 from my server :)

Not yet, unfortunately.


-- 
  Phil Stracchino
  Babylon Communications
  phils at caerllewys.net
  phil at co.ordinate.org
  Landline: +1.603.293.8485
  Mobile:   +1.603.998.6958

From kristin.solba at gmail.com  Tue Jan  8 05:03:34 2019
From: kristin.solba at gmail.com (Kristin Solbakken)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 11:03:34 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Wrong Indentation in MailMan archive (threads)
Message-ID: <CAL-4q0o6i6WB6adj4mRWaFop7G8XVFQ69BHWboAAZwigHb3Eww@mail.gmail.com>

Hi. We had some mails missing from the archive, so I ran ./bin/arch
listname to update the archive. This fixed the missing mails part, but
somehow must have messed up the indentation.

All mails got indented three times, and it looks like none of them are
connected to each other anymore. Here is an example
https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/thread.html

Does anybody know how this can be fixed? Or know what has happened here? I
have previously ran the bin/arch script to update the archive if some mails
are missing, neveer experienced this indentation issue before.

Best Regards,
Kristin Solbakken

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jan  8 15:16:49 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 12:16:49 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Wrong Indentation in MailMan archive (threads)
In-Reply-To: <CAL-4q0o6i6WB6adj4mRWaFop7G8XVFQ69BHWboAAZwigHb3Eww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL-4q0o6i6WB6adj4mRWaFop7G8XVFQ69BHWboAAZwigHb3Eww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0370aab5-0523-015d-6957-5460e9249ad5@msapiro.net>

On 1/8/19 2:03 AM, Kristin Solbakken wrote:
> Hi. We had some mails missing from the archive, so I ran ./bin/arch
> listname to update the archive. This fixed the missing mails part, but
> somehow must have messed up the indentation.


If you actually ran './bin/arch listname', the input was the cumulative
archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox file. This is an issue
because you are processing messages that are already in the archive and
adding them again even though they don't appear because of duplicate
Message-IDs. This is what's screwing up your threading.


> All mails got indented three times, and it looks like none of them are
> connected to each other anymore.


Three is the maximum indent, otherwise they would be indented more.

If you look at the source of
<https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/thread.html>, you
will see each index entry is preceded by an HTML comment

The first two of which are> <!--3
01546606492.2242-01546606492.2656-01546606492.3076-01546606492.3496-01546606492.3918-01546606492.4340-01546606492.4762-01546606492.4762-
-->
> <!--3 01546606492.2242-01546606492.2656-01546606492.3076-01546606492.3496-01546606492.3918-01546606492.4340-01546606492.4762-01546606492.4762-01546846679.4765- -->

The '3' is the thread depth and the long strings represent the threaded
messages. The pieces are '<time_stamp>.<sequence>-' every time stamp is
01546606492 which is Fri Jan  4 04:54:52 2019

The first message is actually 8 messages deep in the thread and the
second is threaded below it at a depth of 9.

You have multiple copies of the same message in the archive. Looking
only at the first of the above, the initial message in the thread is
<https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/002242.html>
followed by
<https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/002656.html>,
<https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/003076.html>,
<https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/003496.html>,
<https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/003918.html>,
<https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/004340.html>,
<https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/004762.html>, and
finally <https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/004762.html>
again.

This is all because of re-adding messages that are already in the archive.

The bottom line here is if you are going to process the entire
archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox file, you need to run

./bin/arch --wipe listname

Running that should fix your archive. But the question is if that fixes
the "missing" messages, why are the messages in the listname.mbox file
but not in the pipermail archive.

What's in Mailman's error log and Mailman's qfiles/shunt directory to
explain that?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From kristin.solba at gmail.com  Wed Jan  9 01:40:34 2019
From: kristin.solba at gmail.com (Kristin Solbakken)
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 07:40:34 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Wrong Indentation in MailMan archive (threads)
In-Reply-To: <0370aab5-0523-015d-6957-5460e9249ad5@msapiro.net>
References: <CAL-4q0o6i6WB6adj4mRWaFop7G8XVFQ69BHWboAAZwigHb3Eww@mail.gmail.com>
 <0370aab5-0523-015d-6957-5460e9249ad5@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAL-4q0quF8gUGrz53qYTacpeXzQxLEXv-e7Op4jg2xt+b3qOSw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, and thanks for the detailed explanation, this all makes sense now. I
now ran the arch script with wipe option, and the archive is back to
normal. As for the mails that did not go to the archive I did not see any
related message in the error.log , but my guess is that this was caused by
the qrunner (which stopped a while back). Well now it is back to normal,
and all mails seem to be present in the archive :)

Best regards,
Kristin Solbakken

On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 9:17 PM Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 1/8/19 2:03 AM, Kristin Solbakken wrote:
> > Hi. We had some mails missing from the archive, so I ran ./bin/arch
> > listname to update the archive. This fixed the missing mails part, but
> > somehow must have messed up the indentation.
>
>
> If you actually ran './bin/arch listname', the input was the cumulative
> archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox file. This is an issue
> because you are processing messages that are already in the archive and
> adding them again even though they don't appear because of duplicate
> Message-IDs. This is what's screwing up your threading.
>
>
> > All mails got indented three times, and it looks like none of them are
> > connected to each other anymore.
>
>
> Three is the maximum indent, otherwise they would be indented more.
>
> If you look at the source of
> <https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/thread.html>, you
> will see each index entry is preceded by an HTML comment
>
> The first two of which are> <!--3
>
> 01546606492.2242-01546606492.2656-01546606492.3076-01546606492.3496-01546606492.3918-01546606492.4340-01546606492.4762-01546606492.4762-
> -->
> > <!--3
> 01546606492.2242-01546606492.2656-01546606492.3076-01546606492.3496-01546606492.3918-01546606492.4340-01546606492.4762-01546606492.4762-01546846679.4765-
> -->
>
> The '3' is the thread depth and the long strings represent the threaded
> messages. The pieces are '<time_stamp>.<sequence>-' every time stamp is
> 01546606492 which is Fri Jan  4 04:54:52 2019
>
> The first message is actually 8 messages deep in the thread and the
> second is threaded below it at a depth of 9.
>
> You have multiple copies of the same message in the archive. Looking
> only at the first of the above, the initial message in the thread is
> <https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/002242.html>
> followed by
> <https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/002656.html>,
> <https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/003076.html>,
> <https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/003496.html>,
> <https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/003918.html>,
> <https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/004340.html>,
> <https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/004762.html>, and
> finally <https://opm-project.org/pipermail/opm/2019-January/004762.html>
> again.
>
> This is all because of re-adding messages that are already in the archive.
>
> The bottom line here is if you are going to process the entire
> archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox file, you need to run
>
> ./bin/arch --wipe listname
>
> Running that should fix your archive. But the question is if that fixes
> the "missing" messages, why are the messages in the listname.mbox file
> but not in the pipermail archive.
>
> What's in Mailman's error log and Mailman's qfiles/shunt directory to
> explain that?
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/kristin.solba%40gmail.com
>

From konrad.wawryn at virtual-machine.org  Wed Jan  9 10:15:26 2019
From: konrad.wawryn at virtual-machine.org (Konrad Wawryn)
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2019 16:15:26 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How many abonents mailman can handle ?
Message-ID: <bb098d60239e8ae4c4cca4c3018f08a7@virtual-machine.org>

Hi,

I would like to create newsletter mailing list with ~3,2mln abonents.

The question is, can Mailman handle it ? Will it be possible to import 
via command line such a big amount of users ?



Thanks in advance for any feedback.


Cheers
Konrad

-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.


From dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu  Thu Jan 10 11:06:39 2019
From: dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu (Dmitri Maziuk)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 10:06:39 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How many abonents mailman can handle ?
In-Reply-To: <bb098d60239e8ae4c4cca4c3018f08a7@virtual-machine.org>
References: <bb098d60239e8ae4c4cca4c3018f08a7@virtual-machine.org>
Message-ID: <20190110100639.8529872d46c03600791073cf@bmrb.wisc.edu>

On Wed, 09 Jan 2019 16:15:26 +0100
Konrad Wawryn <konrad.wawryn at virtual-machine.org> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I would like to create newsletter mailing list with ~3,2mln abonents.
> 
> The question is, can Mailman handle it ? Will it be possible to
> import via command line such a big amount of users ?

Ours choked on a few thousand, we ended up importing them in
smaller batches.

-- 
Dmitri Maziuk <dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jan 10 11:51:42 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 08:51:42 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How many abonents mailman can handle ?
In-Reply-To: <bb098d60239e8ae4c4cca4c3018f08a7@virtual-machine.org>
References: <bb098d60239e8ae4c4cca4c3018f08a7@virtual-machine.org>
Message-ID: <ccb7650e-447b-137a-df32-93f04582e014@msapiro.net>

On 1/9/19 7:15 AM, Konrad Wawryn wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I would like to create newsletter mailing list with ~3,2mln abonents.
> 
> The question is, can Mailman handle it ? Will it be possible to import
> via command line such a big amount of users ?


See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030518>.

The answer depends on the server and supporting infrastructure. E.g.,
how long will it take to process messages to 3.2 million recipients
through the MTA; will the Python qrunner processes be able to acquire
enough memory to handle a 500 MB (about 150 bytes per user) list
configuration.

Some have found it helpful to divide a very large list into several
smaller lists.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From david at midrange.com  Fri Jan 11 10:06:03 2019
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 09:06:03 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Prevent MM from adding a CC for DMARC munged posts?
Message-ID: <q1ab8n$mfv$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Folks:

Does anyone know if there is a way to prevent MM from adding the original posters email address as a CC when the DMARC munging is done?

Thanks!

david
-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding 615 miles (Yes, you read that right) in the American Diabetes Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax-deductible donation to my ride by visiting https://gmane.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map ... https://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jan 11 14:23:36 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 11:23:36 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Prevent MM from adding a CC for DMARC munged
 posts?
In-Reply-To: <q1ab8n$mfv$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <q1ab8n$mfv$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <46028271-8f37-6590-49f1-590e18b43507@msapiro.net>

On 1/11/19 7:06 AM, David Gibbs via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know if there is a way to prevent MM from adding the
> original posters email address as a CC when the DMARC munging is done?


The following comment from Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py describes the
goals for handling the original From:

>     # MAS: We need to do some things with the original From: if we've munged
>     # it for DMARC mitigation.  We have goals for this process which are
>     # not completely compatible, so we do the best we can.  Our goals are:
>     # 1) as long as the list is not anonymous, the original From: address
>     #    should be obviously exposed, i.e. not just in a header that MUAs
>     #    don't display.
>     # 2) the original From: address should not be in a comment or display
>     #    name in the new From: because it is claimed that multiple domains
>     #    in any fields in From: are indicative of spamminess.  This means
>     #    it should be in Reply-To: or Cc:.
>     # 3) the behavior of an MUA doing a 'reply' or 'reply all' should be
>     #    consistent regardless of whether or not the From: is munged.
>     # Goal 3) implies sometimes the original From: should be in Reply-To:
>     # and sometimes in Cc:, and even so, this goal won't be achieved in
>     # all cases with all MUAs.  In cases of conflict, the above ordering of
>     # goals is priority order.


If your goal is to not expose the original From: address, you can make
the list anonymous or if you have sufficient access, modify the code.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jester at panix.com  Mon Jan 14 07:02:47 2019
From: jester at panix.com (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 07:02:47 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restoring manually backed-up archives into cPanel
 installation?
Message-ID: <20190114120247.GA8249@panix.com>


I'm trying to migrate a group of Mailman lists onto a new shared hosting provider. I do not have direct access to the original system; the sysadmin there has given me a full tarball of the mailman directory, including the archives/, data/, and lists/ subdirectories.

The new hosting provider, to which I do have command-line access via SSH, uses Mailman through a cPanel installation. There's no mailman directory currently, and cPanel itself doesn't have any options for migration. I e-mailed the support group to ask where to put it, and they said that you can only restore a backup that is itself made with cPanel into a cPanel environment; the cPanel version of mailman is different and won't accept backups made manually.

Is this true? I've Googled what I can, but haven't found anything that addresses this. If I can't restore the list archives, I'll need to find a different hosting provider, and it hasn't been easy to find one that meets my otherwise very simple needs.

From brian at emwd.com  Mon Jan 14 10:45:53 2019
From: brian at emwd.com (Brian Carpenter)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 10:45:53 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restoring manually backed-up archives into
 cPanel installation?
In-Reply-To: <20190114120247.GA8249@panix.com>
References: <20190114120247.GA8249@panix.com>
Message-ID: <091401d4ac20$3bf722d0$b3e56870$@emwd.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mailman-Users <mailman-users-
> bounces+brian=emwd.com at python.org> On Behalf Of Jesse Sheidlower
> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2019 7:03 AM
> To: mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restoring manually backed-up archives into cPanel
> installation?
> 
> 
> I'm trying to migrate a group of Mailman lists onto a new shared hosting
> provider. I do not have direct access to the original system; the sysadmin
> there has given me a full tarball of the mailman directory, including the
> archives/, data/, and lists/ subdirectories.
> 
> The new hosting provider, to which I do have command-line access via SSH,
> uses Mailman through a cPanel installation. There's no mailman directory
> currently, and cPanel itself doesn't have any options for migration. I
e-mailed
> the support group to ask where to put it, and they said that you can only
> restore a backup that is itself made with cPanel into a cPanel
environment;
> the cPanel version of mailman is different and won't accept backups made
> manually.
> 
> Is this true? I've Googled what I can, but haven't found anything that
> addresses this. If I can't restore the list archives, I'll need to find a
different
> hosting provider, and it hasn't been easy to find one that meets my
> otherwise very simple needs.

Hi Jesse,

Those files need to go into the backend of the server which is beyond the
reach of a cPanel shared hosting account. The server admin would have to do
that for you. As long as the backup of the files are version 2.1.* they
should migrate fine. Contact me off list if you can't get this resolved.

Brian Carpenter
Mailmanhost.com  :^)


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jan 14 11:20:21 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 08:20:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restoring manually backed-up archives into
 cPanel installation?
In-Reply-To: <20190114120247.GA8249@panix.com>
References: <20190114120247.GA8249@panix.com>
Message-ID: <1ac38ec6-a012-ba95-be46-c953568ffaa0@msapiro.net>

On 1/14/19 4:02 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
> 
> I'm trying to migrate a group of Mailman lists onto a new shared hosting provider. I do not have direct access to the original system; the sysadmin there has given me a full tarball of the mailman directory, including the archives/, data/, and lists/ subdirectories.


Good.


> The new hosting provider, to which I do have command-line access via SSH, uses Mailman through a cPanel installation. There's no mailman directory currently, and cPanel itself doesn't have any options for migration. I e-mailed the support group to ask where to put it, and they said that you can only restore a backup that is itself made with cPanel into a cPanel environment; the cPanel version of mailman is different and won't accept backups made manually.
> 
> Is this true?


Yes and No.

There is some info at
<https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%20and%20CPanel>. The most important
thing is that the 'mailman' directory in cPanel is at
/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman.

Importing archives is not a problem. Importing lists is an issue because
of cPanel's appending the domain to the internal listname, so you can't
just drop a mailman/lists/LISTNAME/config.pck into cPanel, even if yo
put it in
/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/lists/LISTNAME_DOMAIN/config.pck,
because the internal name in the config.pck is wrong.

I think if you have a way to import the list membership, the way to
proceed is to create the lists in cPanel and then add the members.
Extracting the members from your existing
mailman/lists/LISTNAME/config.pck file is difficult without a mailman
installation, but you might be able to just put a config.pck in
/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/lists/XXX/config.pck and run
/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/bin/list_members on the XXX list to
get files of regular members, plain digest members and mime digest
members which you can import to the real list via
/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/bin/add_members. Run those commands
with the --help option for details on options.

For the archives, you should be able to import them into a cPanel list
with the command '/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/bin/arch
LISTNAME_DOMAIN /path/to/old/archives/private/LISTNAME.mbox/LISTNAME.mbox'

Actually, you might be able to create a list in cPanel and then just
replace its lists/LISTNAME_DOMAIN/config.pck with the one from the
backup and then use /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/bin/withlist to
'fix' attributes like _internal_name, host_name and web_page_url, but
this probably requires some knowledge of Mailman internals and trial and
error.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From david at midrange.com  Mon Jan 14 11:40:16 2019
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 10:40:16 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Allow posting from addresses with modifiers?
Message-ID: <q1idte$j3b$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Folks:

Anyone know if it's possible to configure MM 2.1 to allow posting with an email address that has a modifier?

For example ... if someone is subscribed as "john+lists at example.com", but their email comes from "john at example.com", allow that address to post?

I've had some people ask me about this ability because they want to use the modifier address to help them filter messages.

Thanks!

david

-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding 615 miles (Yes, you read that right) in the American Diabetes Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax-deductible donation to my ride by visiting https://gmane.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map ... https://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jan 14 13:13:21 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 10:13:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Allow posting from addresses with modifiers?
In-Reply-To: <q1idte$j3b$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <q1idte$j3b$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <7710a381-b7e0-dd30-6936-c5307cc0e437@msapiro.net>

On 1/14/19 8:40 AM, David Gibbs via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> Anyone know if it's possible to configure MM 2.1 to allow posting with
> an email address that has a modifier?


You can't configure Mailman to just do it without making code changes,
but there are possibilities:


> For example ... if someone is subscribed as "john+lists at example.com",
> but their email comes from "john at example.com", allow that address to post?


To place the burden on john, he can subscribe both addresses and set
john at example.com to nomail.

To place the burden on you, assuming you have access to Mailman's
command line tools, you could periodically (via cron) run a script to
list the members, find those with '+' in the local part and add the
address without the +... in the local part to the list's
accept_these_nonmembers. There is a script at
<https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/non_members> (mirrored at
<https://fog.ccsf.edu/~msapiro/scripts/non_members>) that can do the
adding to accept_these_nonmembers.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From david at midrange.com  Mon Jan 14 13:35:34 2019
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 12:35:34 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Allow posting from addresses with modifiers?
In-Reply-To: <7710a381-b7e0-dd30-6936-c5307cc0e437@msapiro.net>
References: <q1idte$j3b$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <7710a381-b7e0-dd30-6936-c5307cc0e437@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <q1iklj$cmv$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 1/14/2019 12:13 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 1/14/19 8:40 AM, David Gibbs via Mailman-Users wrote:
>> Anyone know if it's possible to configure MM 2.1 to allow posting
>> with an email address that has a modifier?
> 
> You can't configure Mailman to just do it without making code
> changes,

OK, thanks.

I might play around with that at some point in the future.

david

-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding 615 miles (Yes, you read that right) in the American Diabetes Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax-deductible donation to my ride by visiting https://gmane.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map ... https://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Mon Jan 14 14:09:01 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 12:09:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Allow posting from addresses with modifiers?
In-Reply-To: <7710a381-b7e0-dd30-6936-c5307cc0e437@msapiro.net>
References: <q1idte$j3b$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <7710a381-b7e0-dd30-6936-c5307cc0e437@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <5621164a-81b0-b7da-0353-2a4a075cb87f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 01/14/2019 11:13 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> To place the burden on john, he can subscribe both addresses and set 
> john at example.com to nomail.

This is what I have done for many mailing lists.  ?  I subscribe with 
one private address for email filtering and reply from another public 
email address.

I suggest that the member also pick one and toggle the option to hide 
(the non-public subscribed address) from other subscribers.

> To place the burden on you, assuming you have access to Mailman's command 
> line tools, you could periodically (via cron) run a script to list the 
> members, find those with '+' in the local part and add the address without 
> the +... in the local part to the list's accept_these_nonmembers. There 
> is a script at <https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/non_members> (mirrored 
> at <https://fog.ccsf.edu/~msapiro/scripts/non_members>) that can do the 
> adding to accept_these_nonmembers.

I don't see any obvious security related down sides to this.  It does 
open the mailing list up to messages (spam) from some additional 
addresses.  But I can't think of any cases where user at domain.tld would 
be different than user+detail at domain.tld.  I guess maybe some sort of 
ticketing system /might/ do something like that.  But I bet that the 
intersection between such configurations and Mailman configured as Mark 
is describing to be quite small.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From jester at panix.com  Tue Jan 15 10:07:29 2019
From: jester at panix.com (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 10:07:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restoring manually backed-up archives into
 cPanel installation?
In-Reply-To: <1ac38ec6-a012-ba95-be46-c953568ffaa0@msapiro.net>
References: <20190114120247.GA8249@panix.com>
 <1ac38ec6-a012-ba95-be46-c953568ffaa0@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20190115150729.GA85@panix.com>

On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 08:20:21AM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 1/14/19 4:02 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
> > 
> > I'm trying to migrate a group of Mailman lists onto a new shared hosting provider. I do not have direct access to the original system; the sysadmin there has given me a full tarball of the mailman directory, including the archives/, data/, and lists/ subdirectories.
> 
> 
> Yes and No.
> 
> There is some info at
> <https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%20and%20CPanel>. The most important
> thing is that the 'mailman' directory in cPanel is at
> /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman.
>
> Importing archives is not a problem. Importing lists is an issue because
> of cPanel's appending the domain to the internal listname, so you can't
> just drop a mailman/lists/LISTNAME/config.pck into cPanel, even if yo
> put it in
> /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/lists/LISTNAME_DOMAIN/config.pck,
> because the internal name in the config.pck is wrong.

Thank you (and to Brian Carpenter for his separate reply). I do not have access to the /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty directory myself. However, the hosting provider has said that they can put the archives in the right location here; the hard thing is, as you say, getting the lists themselves in place. Rather than trying something that's probably impossible with the access I have, I'll just redo the lists manually and then get the archives set.

I do hope this goes OK; I feel like it would have been relatively straightforward if I were using a dedicated server instead of a shared system, but I'm getting this set up for someone with no computer skills, and they need something like a shared, supported environment with something like cPanel for when I'm not around to maintain it.

From odhiambo at gmail.com  Tue Jan 15 10:18:07 2019
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 18:18:07 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restoring manually backed-up archives into
 cPanel installation?
In-Reply-To: <20190115150729.GA85@panix.com>
References: <20190114120247.GA8249@panix.com>
 <1ac38ec6-a012-ba95-be46-c953568ffaa0@msapiro.net>
 <20190115150729.GA85@panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WNJasXEQk__h0QeF6PiK8n79D6=vC2krJL+tUkg0eGhaw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 18:08, Jesse Sheidlower <jester at panix.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 08:20:21AM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> > On 1/14/19 4:02 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm trying to migrate a group of Mailman lists onto a new shared
> hosting provider. I do not have direct access to the original system; the
> sysadmin there has given me a full tarball of the mailman directory,
> including the archives/, data/, and lists/ subdirectories.
> >
> >
> > Yes and No.
> >
> > There is some info at
> > <https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%20and%20CPanel>. The most important
> > thing is that the 'mailman' directory in cPanel is at
> > /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman.
> >
> > Importing archives is not a problem. Importing lists is an issue because
> > of cPanel's appending the domain to the internal listname, so you can't
> > just drop a mailman/lists/LISTNAME/config.pck into cPanel, even if yo
> > put it in
> > /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/lists/LISTNAME_DOMAIN/config.pck,
> > because the internal name in the config.pck is wrong.
>
> Thank you (and to Brian Carpenter for his separate reply). I do not have
> access to the /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty directory myself. However, the
> hosting provider has said that they can put the archives in the right
> location here; the hard thing is, as you say, getting the lists themselves
> in place. Rather than trying something that's probably impossible with the
> access I have, I'll just redo the lists manually and then get the archives
> set.
>
> I do hope this goes OK; I feel like it would have been relatively
> straightforward if I were using a dedicated server instead of a shared
> system, but I'm getting this set up for someone with no computer skills,
> and they need something like a shared, supported environment with something
> like cPanel for when I'm not around to maintain it.
>

The thing is, because you have the tarbals, you could install mailman on
your machine and use it to extract the list configs and the list members.
You could then pass the list config to the cPanel folks to import while
putting the archives at the right place. The members you could just add
once lists are up.
Anyway, I am sure you will hack it.



-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223
"Oh, the cruft.", grep ^[^#] :-)

From brian at emwd.com  Tue Jan 15 10:44:02 2019
From: brian at emwd.com (Brian Carpenter)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 10:44:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restoring manually backed-up archives into
 cPanel installation?
In-Reply-To: <20190115150729.GA85@panix.com>
References: <20190114120247.GA8249@panix.com>
 <1ac38ec6-a012-ba95-be46-c953568ffaa0@msapiro.net>
 <20190115150729.GA85@panix.com>
Message-ID: <1b0201d4ace9$23d62060$6b826120$@emwd.com>

> Thank you (and to Brian Carpenter for his separate reply). I do not have
> access to the /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty directory myself. However, the
> hosting provider has said that they can put the archives in the right
location
> here; the hard thing is, as you say, getting the lists themselves in
place.
> Rather than trying something that's probably impossible with the access I
> have, I'll just redo the lists manually and then get the archives set.
> 
> I do hope this goes OK; I feel like it would have been relatively
> straightforward if I were using a dedicated server instead of a shared
system,
> but I'm getting this set up for someone with no computer skills, and they
> need something like a shared, supported environment with something like
> cPanel for when I'm not around to maintain it.

If the host is willing to move your archives then they can do the same for
your lists. This is what you do:

1. Log into cPanel

2. Create the lists that you are migrating over.

3. Contact the host and ask them to overwrite those list directories that
cPanel created with your back ups. It takes a few minutes to do that. Make
sure they run /scripts/fixmailinglistperms on each list after they do that.


Brian Carpenter
Owner

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: brian at emwd.com
www.emwd.com
www.mailmanhost.com
www.mailman3host.com



From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jan 15 18:04:04 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 15:04:04 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restoring manually backed-up archives into
 cPanel installation?
In-Reply-To: <1b0201d4ace9$23d62060$6b826120$@emwd.com>
References: <20190114120247.GA8249@panix.com>
 <1ac38ec6-a012-ba95-be46-c953568ffaa0@msapiro.net>
 <20190115150729.GA85@panix.com> <1b0201d4ace9$23d62060$6b826120$@emwd.com>
Message-ID: <6b542d00-427f-2027-22e1-3b80a72d2934@msapiro.net>

On 1/15/19 7:44 AM, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> 
> If the host is willing to move your archives then they can do the same for
> your lists. This is what you do:
> 
> 1. Log into cPanel
> 
> 2. Create the lists that you are migrating over.
> 
> 3. Contact the host and ask them to overwrite those list directories that
> cPanel created with your back ups. It takes a few minutes to do that. Make
> sure they run /scripts/fixmailinglistperms on each list after they do that.


I may be wrong because Brian knows more about cPanel than I do, and I
don't know what /scripts/fixmailinglistperms does, but I see an issue
with the above.

Namely, if the backups don't come from cPanel, the list's _internal_name
in the backup won't have the _domain appendage that cPanel list's have
and if the new domain is not the old one, the list's web_page_url will
have the wrong domain name. Also, the list's host_name may be wrong, but
that can be fixed via the Mailman web UI, but without a correct
web_page_url, none of the web form submissions will work.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From brian at emwd.com  Tue Jan 15 18:40:59 2019
From: brian at emwd.com (Brian Carpenter)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 18:40:59 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restoring manually backed-up archives into
 cPanel installation?
In-Reply-To: <6b542d00-427f-2027-22e1-3b80a72d2934@msapiro.net>
References: <20190114120247.GA8249@panix.com>
 <1ac38ec6-a012-ba95-be46-c953568ffaa0@msapiro.net>
 <20190115150729.GA85@panix.com> <1b0201d4ace9$23d62060$6b826120$@emwd.com>
 <6b542d00-427f-2027-22e1-3b80a72d2934@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <209501d4ad2b$c4de02b0$4e9a0810$@emwd.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mailman-Users <mailman-users-
> bounces+brian=emwd.com at python.org> On Behalf Of Mark Sapiro
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2019 6:04 PM
> To: mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Restoring manually backed-up archives into
> cPanel installation?
> 
> On 1/15/19 7:44 AM, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> >
> > If the host is willing to move your archives then they can do the same
for
> > your lists. This is what you do:
> >
> > 1. Log into cPanel
> >
> > 2. Create the lists that you are migrating over.
> >
> I may be wrong because Brian knows more about cPanel than I do, and I
> don't know what /scripts/fixmailinglistperms does, but I see an issue
> with the above.
> 
> Namely, if the backups don't come from cPanel, the list's _internal_name
> in the backup won't have the _domain appendage that cPanel list's have
> and if the new domain is not the old one, the list's web_page_url will
> have the wrong domain name. Also, the list's host_name may be wrong, but
> that can be fixed via the Mailman web UI, but without a correct
> web_page_url, none of the web form submissions will work.
> 
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

That is why you first create the lists via the cPanel interface. Overwriting
the contents of the list directory with the backups will not interfere with
cPanel's list naming approach if those lists were first created by cPanel.

I am assuming the list domain is still the same. If it is not then the host
of the server has some more work to do but you can still migrate them over
to the new domain fairly easy. I do it all the time using the fix_url
script.

Brian Carpenter
Owner

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: brian at emwd.com
www.emwd.com




From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jan 15 21:03:23 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 18:03:23 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restoring manually backed-up archives into
 cPanel installation?
In-Reply-To: <209501d4ad2b$c4de02b0$4e9a0810$@emwd.com>
References: <20190114120247.GA8249@panix.com>
 <1ac38ec6-a012-ba95-be46-c953568ffaa0@msapiro.net>
 <20190115150729.GA85@panix.com> <1b0201d4ace9$23d62060$6b826120$@emwd.com>
 <6b542d00-427f-2027-22e1-3b80a72d2934@msapiro.net>
 <209501d4ad2b$c4de02b0$4e9a0810$@emwd.com>
Message-ID: <c39bb75e-4194-cbb4-7b27-c7b3cddcd16d@msapiro.net>

On 1/15/19 3:40 PM, Brian Carpenter wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mark Sapiro
...
>> I may be wrong because Brian knows more about cPanel than I do, and I
>> don't know what /scripts/fixmailinglistperms does, but I see an issue
>> with the above.
>>
>> Namely, if the backups don't come from cPanel, the list's _internal_name
>> in the backup won't have the _domain appendage that cPanel list's have
>> and if the new domain is not the old one, the list's web_page_url will
>> have the wrong domain name. Also, the list's host_name may be wrong, but
>> that can be fixed via the Mailman web UI, but without a correct
>> web_page_url, none of the web form submissions will work.
...
> That is why you first create the lists via the cPanel interface. Overwriting
> the contents of the list directory with the backups will not interfere with
> cPanel's list naming approach if those lists were first created by cPanel.


I wasn't concerned about things like the directory names. I was
concerned that the list's _internal_name attribute in the config.pck
created by cPanel would be the listname_domain cPanel name and the value
in the backed up config.pck would be just the listname.

However, as I said, "Brian knows more about cPanel than I do" and I have
now looked at the cPanel Mailman patches that I have (an old set from
2.1.13, but I doubt they've changed much), and it seems that even in
cPanel, the _internal_name attribute is just the listname without the
_domain appendage, so I withdraw my concern.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dhoffmann at uwalumni.com  Sat Jan 19 00:56:07 2019
From: dhoffmann at uwalumni.com (Dominik Hoffmann)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 00:56:07 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some mailing lists are stuck
Message-ID: <32F14433-6B1F-4664-83B4-E1BCE364C193@uwalumni.com>

I have a couple of mailing lists on my mailman server that don?t forward messages to their members. There are no rules that would block them. It all looks like they are stuck in a queue, which would just have to be unstuck. Is there a command-line way of doing that?
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From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jan 19 14:36:03 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 11:36:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some mailing lists are stuck
In-Reply-To: <32F14433-6B1F-4664-83B4-E1BCE364C193@uwalumni.com>
References: <32F14433-6B1F-4664-83B4-E1BCE364C193@uwalumni.com>
Message-ID: <a20c86ff-1761-ea70-edaf-761e866bf002@msapiro.net>

On 1/18/19 9:56 PM, Dominik Hoffmann wrote:
> I have a couple of mailing lists on my mailman server that don?t forward messages to their members. There are no rules that would block them. It all looks like they are stuck in a queue, which would just have to be unstuck. Is there a command-line way of doing that?


Is it some lists or all lists?

See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030723>, particularly items 2.2, 6.2, 7,
8, 9 and 13.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From kgordon2006 at frontier.com  Sat Jan 19 16:58:08 2019
From: kgordon2006 at frontier.com (Kenneth G. Gordon)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 13:58:08 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Nonsubscribers attacking one of my lists.
Message-ID: <5C439D70.4578.645A5F5@kgordon2006.frontier.com>

One of my forums has suddenly been inundated with posts to the list by non-subscribers, 
most of which seem to be coming from some homosexual list somewhere. 

These seem to be coming from every place in the world.

I receive notices from Mailman every time I check my e-mail listing of 4 to a dozen 
non-subscribers attempting post to the forum, and I have to go to my admin database and 
remove and block each one.

Is there some way to prevent these jerks from showing up in the database at all?

Ken Gordon

From Richard at Damon-family.org  Sat Jan 19 17:08:42 2019
From: Richard at Damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 17:08:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Nonsubscribers attacking one of my lists.
In-Reply-To: <5C439D70.4578.645A5F5@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
References: <5C439D70.4578.645A5F5@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
Message-ID: <47AF7D03-7344-4CA7-913B-AE05E44589ED@Damon-family.org>

Set the action on Sender Filters for messages from non-members to discard, instead of hold. I had to do that a long time ago (Don?t reject or you will be generating back-scatter)

> On Jan 19, 2019, at 4:58 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon <kgordon2006 at frontier.com> wrote:
> 
> One of my forums has suddenly been inundated with posts to the list by non-subscribers, 
> most of which seem to be coming from some homosexual list somewhere. 
> 
> These seem to be coming from every place in the world.
> 
> I receive notices from Mailman every time I check my e-mail listing of 4 to a dozen 
> non-subscribers attempting post to the forum, and I have to go to my admin database and 
> remove and block each one.
> 
> Is there some way to prevent these jerks from showing up in the database at all?
> 
> Ken Gordon
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/richard%40damon-family.org


From kgordon2006 at frontier.com  Sat Jan 19 17:24:07 2019
From: kgordon2006 at frontier.com (Kenneth G. Gordon)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 14:24:07 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Nonsubscribers attacking one of my lists.
In-Reply-To: <47AF7D03-7344-4CA7-913B-AE05E44589ED@Damon-family.org>
References: <5C439D70.4578.645A5F5@kgordon2006.frontier.com>,
 <47AF7D03-7344-4CA7-913B-AE05E44589ED@Damon-family.org>
Message-ID: <5C43A387.20757.65D6F6F@kgordon2006.frontier.com>

On 19 Jan 2019 at 17:08, Richard Damon wrote:

> Set the action on Sender Filters for messages from non-members to
> discard, instead of hold. I had to do that a long time ago (Don?t
> reject or you will be generating back-scatter) 

OK. I'll try that. 

I DO get messages from non-subscribers once in a while that I should pass on to the forum, 
but there are so few of those that at this point, I had better follow your advice.

Thanks,

Ken Gordon

From kgordon2006 at frontier.com  Sat Jan 19 17:44:41 2019
From: kgordon2006 at frontier.com (Kenneth G. Gordon)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 14:44:41 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest mode.
Message-ID: <5C43A859.3648.670448B@kgordon2006.frontier.com>

One of my subscribers is complaining that he cannot activate the digest mode for his 
account. I can find nothing wrong in the admin database.

Where should I look for this problem?

Ken Gordon

From kgordon2006 at frontier.com  Sat Jan 19 17:41:02 2019
From: kgordon2006 at frontier.com (Kenneth G. Gordon)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 14:41:02 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce processing
Message-ID: <5C43A77E.16974.66CEC86@kgordon2006.frontier.com>

Over the past several weeks, I have received many reports from Mailman concerning too 
many bounces from certain subscribers who are normally very active on one of my forums.

All of these "Bounce Action Notification"'s appear to be coming from only a very few ISPs, 
the big one being AOL, although also verizon.com is another one. In the past, gmail.com, 
and hotmail.com have been a culprits.

Is there any way to prevent these people from being essentially kicked off the forum until 
AOL, among others, gets its act together?

Ken Gordon

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Sat Jan 19 21:39:22 2019
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 21:39:22 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce processing
In-Reply-To: <5C43A77E.16974.66CEC86@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
References: <5C43A77E.16974.66CEC86@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
Message-ID: <4687f4c1-a765-8161-20d9-c52a495a4d66@Damon-Family.org>

On 1/19/19 5:41 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon wrote:
> Over the past several weeks, I have received many reports from Mailman concerning too 
> many bounces from certain subscribers who are normally very active on one of my forums.
>
> All of these "Bounce Action Notification"'s appear to be coming from only a very few ISPs, 
> the big one being AOL, although also verizon.com is another one. In the past, gmail.com, 
> and hotmail.com have been a culprits.
>
> Is there any way to prevent these people from being essentially kicked off the forum until 
> AOL, among others, gets its act together?
>
> Ken Gordon

The best you can do is look at the bounces and see what the cause is. If
it is the message being detected as spam, you may be able to contact the
ISP and get them to adjust their filters and at least partially white
list you.

There might be some other issue happening that the notice might help you
with.

-- 
Richard Damon


From bernie at fantasyfarm.com  Sat Jan 19 18:16:11 2019
From: bernie at fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 18:16:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce processing
In-Reply-To: <5C43A77E.16974.66CEC86@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
References: <5C43A77E.16974.66CEC86@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
Message-ID: <16868666e90.2796.742cd0bcba90c1f7f640db99bf6503c5@fantasyfarm.com>

On January 19, 2019 18:00:35 "Kenneth G. Gordon" <kgordon2006 at frontier.com> 
wrote:

> Over the past several weeks, I have received many reports from Mailman 
> concerning too
> many bounces from certain subscribers who are normally very active on one 
> of my forums.
>
> All of these "Bounce Action Notification"'s appear to be coming from only a 
> very few ISPs,
> the big one being AOL, although also verizon.com is another one. In the 
> past, gmail.com,
> and hotmail.com have been a culprits.
>
> Is there any way to prevent these people from being essentially kicked off 
> the forum until
> AOL, among others, gets its act together?

it depends on the reason that you're getting the bounces.  i get them all the
time.  sometimes they're just bogus anomalous nonsense {e, g a clearly
non-spam message rejected for "too much spam content}  i just ignore
those - those people must know about the idiosyncrasies of their ISP and
 by staying with them accept their foibles. ... BUT.. if the bounce is because
your host has been blacklisted or is otherwise banned, you need to contact
your isp pronto and get them started on getting themselves re-approved.

/Bernie\

>


                     Bernie Cosell
           bernie at fantasyfarm. com
? Too many people,  too few sheep ?

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Sat Jan 19 21:43:42 2019
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 21:43:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Nonsubscribers attacking one of my lists.
In-Reply-To: <5C43A387.20757.65D6F6F@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
References: <5C439D70.4578.645A5F5@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
 <47AF7D03-7344-4CA7-913B-AE05E44589ED@Damon-family.org>
 <5C43A387.20757.65D6F6F@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
Message-ID: <87cfa90e-b2ee-dd31-03c2-052670163897@Damon-Family.org>

On 1/19/19 5:24 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon wrote:
> On 19 Jan 2019 at 17:08, Richard Damon wrote:
>
>> Set the action on Sender Filters for messages from non-members to
>> discard, instead of hold. I had to do that a long time ago (Don?t
>> reject or you will be generating back-scatter) 
> OK. I'll try that. 
>
> I DO get messages from non-subscribers once in a while that I should pass on to the forum, 
> but there are so few of those that at this point, I had better follow your advice.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ken Gordon
>
It's basically a policy call. If it is a few known addresses, you can
add them to accept these non-members to white list. If you want to
accept some non-member but reject others, unless you can devise a filter
to distinguish, you need to review them all.

-- 
Richard Damon


From heller at deepsoft.com  Sat Jan 19 21:55:17 2019
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 21:55:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Nonsubscribers attacking one of my lists.
In-Reply-To: <5C439D70.4578.645A5F5@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
References: <5C439D70.4578.645A5F5@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
Message-ID: <20190120025517.63C6A26C2162@sharky3.deepsoft.com>

At Sat, 19 Jan 2019 13:58:08 -0800 "Kenneth G. Gordon" <kgordon2006 at frontier.com> wrote:

> 
> One of my forums has suddenly been inundated with posts to the list by non-subscribers, 
> most of which seem to be coming from some homosexual list somewhere. 
> 
> These seem to be coming from every place in the world.
> 
> I receive notices from Mailman every time I check my e-mail listing of 4 to a dozen 
> non-subscribers attempting post to the forum, and I have to go to my admin database and 
> remove and block each one.
> 
> Is there some way to prevent these jerks from showing up in the database at all?

Check the message headers -- there might be common patterns.  Look for 
Received: headers with "unknown" -- this is a giveaway that the messages are 
using spoofed From: headers.  Also look at the From: address, sometimes these 
messages are coming from partitular domains.

There are spam filters and sender filters.  When the regexp matches, one 
option is to *silently* discard the message.

*If* you have access to the inbound MTA's configuration, there are things 
there that can drop or bounce the messages at that point.

> 
> Ken Gordon
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/heller%40deepsoft.com
> 
>                                         

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller at deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                           

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jan 19 22:13:37 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 19:13:37 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest mode.
In-Reply-To: <5C43A859.3648.670448B@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
References: <5C43A859.3648.670448B@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
Message-ID: <e023262d-3f99-fc6b-b65b-6c3baf22dcb4@msapiro.net>

On 1/19/19 2:44 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon wrote:
> One of my subscribers is complaining that he cannot activate the digest mode for his 
> account. I can find nothing wrong in the admin database.
> 
> Where should I look for this problem?


What does the user do and what happens?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jan 19 22:21:41 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 19:21:41 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce processing
In-Reply-To: <5C43A77E.16974.66CEC86@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
References: <5C43A77E.16974.66CEC86@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
Message-ID: <6d3426a8-f810-4e35-d7d9-a40f792ae1d1@msapiro.net>

On 1/19/19 2:41 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon wrote:
> Over the past several weeks, I have received many reports from Mailman concerning too 
> many bounces from certain subscribers who are normally very active on one of my forums.
> 
> All of these "Bounce Action Notification"'s appear to be coming from only a very few ISPs, 
> the big one being AOL, although also verizon.com is another one. In the past, gmail.com, 
> and hotmail.com have been a culprits.
> 
> Is there any way to prevent these people from being essentially kicked off the forum until 
> AOL, among others, gets its act together?


Other replies have given good advice, but one thing not mentioned is
DMARC. If the bounces are of mail that doesn't pass DMARC. See
<https://wiki.list.org/DEV/DMARC> if this is the issue.

You need to look at the bounce notices and determine the reason for the
bounces.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From brian at emwd.com  Sat Jan 19 22:52:32 2019
From: brian at emwd.com (Brian Carpenter)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2019 22:52:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce processing
In-Reply-To: <6d3426a8-f810-4e35-d7d9-a40f792ae1d1@msapiro.net>
References: <5C43A77E.16974.66CEC86@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
 <6d3426a8-f810-4e35-d7d9-a40f792ae1d1@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <0c7e01d4b073$92cdb770$b8692650$@emwd.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mailman-Users <mailman-users-
> bounces+brian=emwd.com at python.org> On Behalf Of Mark Sapiro
> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2019 10:22 PM
> To: mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Bounce processing
> 
> On 1/19/19 2:41 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon wrote:
> > Over the past several weeks, I have received many reports from Mailman
> concerning too
> > many bounces from certain subscribers who are normally very active on
> one of my forums.
> >
> > All of these "Bounce Action Notification"'s appear to be coming from
only
> a very few ISPs,
> > the big one being AOL, although also verizon.com is another one. In the
> past, gmail.com,
> > and hotmail.com have been a culprits.


I believe AOL and Verizon are under Yahoo now. All of them have DMARC
records that will cause bounces if you don't have your DMARC settings set
correctly. What do you have the "Action to take when anyone posts to the
list from a domain with a DMARC Reject/Quarantine Policy." setting set to on
the Privacy options --> Sender filters page?

Brian Carpenter
Owner

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: brian at emwd.com
www.emwd.com

?






From luscheina at yahoo.de  Sun Jan 20 02:38:26 2019
From: luscheina at yahoo.de (Christian F Buser)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2019 08:38:26 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Nonsubscribers attacking one of my lists.
In-Reply-To: <87cfa90e-b2ee-dd31-03c2-052670163897@Damon-Family.org>
References: <5C439D70.4578.645A5F5@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
 <47AF7D03-7344-4CA7-913B-AE05E44589ED@Damon-family.org>
 <5C43A387.20757.65D6F6F@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
 <87cfa90e-b2ee-dd31-03c2-052670163897@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <20190120083826394775.e65f8df7@yahoo.de>

Hello Richard Damon. On Sat, 19 Jan 2019 21:43:42 -0500, you wrote:

> It's basically a policy call. If it is a few known addresses, you can
> add them to accept these non-members to white list. If you want to
> accept some non-member but reject others, unless you can devise a filter
> to distinguish, you need to review them all.

It is possible to "subscribe" to a list and set that address to "nomail". So, this participant can still send messages to the list but will not receive anything. Much better idea than manually going through all the messages held for moderation. 

Christian 

-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)      
Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org

From list at ziobro.rochester.ny.us  Mon Jan 21 02:28:49 2019
From: list at ziobro.rochester.ny.us (Jim Ziobro)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 02:28:49 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Anti Spam to stop list attacks
In-Reply-To: <5C439D70.4578.645A5F5@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
References: <5C439D70.4578.645A5F5@kgordon2006.frontier.com>
Message-ID: <c356af60-a307-3bdf-192e-e874694986ef@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>

I assume you are referring to random postings vs. an adversary targeting 
you specifically.

An internet-facing mail server has to have some anti-spam technology 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-spam_techniques#Confirmed_opt-in_for_mailing_lists>.? 
Email addresses out on public web pages will get hoovered up and added 
to spam lists.? The server will soon be hit by botnets from around the 
world.? By default Mailman lists the posting address of the mailing 
list.? Expect spam!

If you are being hit by spam then you should stop it before your server 
accepts the incoming mail.? Once mail is accepted on your system you 
have lost half the battle. Either discard unwanted posts or risk back 
scatter.? As you noted it takes work in Mailman to handle general spam.

May I suggest creating a web page with addresses to serve as a honeypot 
on your server.? Then you know everything sent to those addresses are 
junk.? I learned a lot by using that trick.

Ciao,
//Z\\
Jim Ziobro
On 1/19/2019 4:58 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon wrote:
> One of my forums has suddenly been inundated with posts to the list by non-subscribers,
> most of which seem to be coming from some homosexual list somewhere.
>
> These seem to be coming from every place in the world.
>
> I receive notices from Mailman every time I check my e-mail listing of 4 to a dozen
> non-subscribers attempting post to the forum, and I have to go to my admin database and
> remove and block each one.
>
> Is there some way to prevent these jerks from showing up in the database at all?
>
> Ken Gordon
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/list%40ziobro.rochester.ny.us



From david at midrange.com  Mon Jan 28 14:54:21 2019
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 13:54:21 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Manually treat certain domains as if they have
 restrictive DMARC policy
Message-ID: <q2nmle$5stj$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Folks:

I've got a number of subscribers who's email admins have set a policy such that, 
if a message is sent to them with their email address as the 'from' address, the 
message is rejected.

This is causing those peoples posts to bounce ... and, ultimately, they get 
unsubscribed.

Although the BEST course of action would be for the mail admin's to alter their 
spam filters or implement DMARC policies, that's a bit much to ask for.

To resolve this, I'm thinking of creating a flat file of domains that are 
causing this problem ... then modifying the _DMARCProhibited routine, in 
Utils.py, to read the flat file and treat domains found in that file as if they 
had a DMARC policy set to reject.

Do you think that will work ... or am I completely off base?  Perhaps there's 
already a mechanism in MM 2.1 that would do what I want (hopeful grin)?

david

-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding 615 miles (Yes, you read that right) in the American Diabetes 
Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, 
advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax-deductible donation to my ride by 
visiting https://gmane.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map 
... https://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From luscheina at yahoo.de  Mon Jan 28 15:19:40 2019
From: luscheina at yahoo.de (Christian F Buser)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 21:19:40 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Manually treat certain domains as if they have
 restrictive DMARC policy
In-Reply-To: <q2nmle$5stj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <q2nmle$5stj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20190128211940737099.540793c3@yahoo.de>

Hello David Gibbs via Mailman-Users. On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 13:54:21 -0600, you wrote:

> I've got a number of subscribers who's email admins have set a policy 
> such that, if a message is sent to them with their email address as 
> the 'from' address, the message is rejected.
> 
> This is causing those peoples posts to bounce ... and, ultimately, 
> they get unsubscribed.

This mail server setup / filter is nonsense. I usually send a Bcc of all my messages to myself to "simulate" IMAP while using POP3. 

My simple "solution" would be:

- They should subscribe twice, with one address to receive the list mails, with the other to send their messages to the list. 
- They should set the "sending" mail address to "silent" (i.e. "no mail") 
- They should maybe use a mail program which allows to automatically reply from the other address if they want to reply to a list message. This would eliminate problems if they forget about it (what would be the case for me most of the time). 

Christian 
-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)      
Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jan 28 15:25:46 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 12:25:46 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Manually treat certain domains as if they have
 restrictive DMARC policy
In-Reply-To: <q2nmle$5stj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <q2nmle$5stj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <8267b0f1-ce0c-05f1-928c-98b555d253aa@msapiro.net>

On 1/28/19 11:54 AM, David Gibbs via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> To resolve this, I'm thinking of creating a flat file of domains that
> are causing this problem ... then modifying the _DMARCProhibited
> routine, in Utils.py, to read the flat file and treat domains found in
> that file as if they had a DMARC policy set to reject.
> 
> Do you think that will work ... or am I completely off base?? Perhaps
> there's already a mechanism in MM 2.1 that would do what I want (hopeful
> grin)?


The current development branch at
<https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1> contains
<https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/revision/1804>
which implements 'dmarc_moderation_addresses which is:

List of addresses (or regexps) whose posts should always apply
dmarc_moderation_action regardless of any domain specific DMARC Policy.

The intent of this feature is (almost) exactly your situation. We say
this about it.

 This can be utilized to automatically wrap or munge postings from known
addresses or domains that might have policies rejecting external mail
From: themselves.

This feature will be in the next release (no planned date yet) or you
can get it now from launchpad.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From david at midrange.com  Mon Jan 28 15:44:55 2019
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 14:44:55 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Manually treat certain domains as if they have
 restrictive DMARC policy
In-Reply-To: <8267b0f1-ce0c-05f1-928c-98b555d253aa@msapiro.net>
References: <q2nmle$5stj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <8267b0f1-ce0c-05f1-928c-98b555d253aa@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <q2npk8$5nhc$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 1/28/19 2:25 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> List of addresses (or regexps) whose posts should always apply 
> dmarc_moderation_action regardless of any domain specific DMARC Policy.

That's close to what I want ... the only issue is that I'm looking for the 
behavior to be site wide not on a per-list basis.

david


-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding 615 miles (Yes, you read that right) in the American Diabetes
Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education,
advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax-deductible donation to my ride by
visiting https://gmane.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map
... https://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Mon Jan 28 23:46:02 2019
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 13:46:02 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Manually treat certain domains as if they have
 restrictive DMARC policy
In-Reply-To: <q2npk8$5nhc$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <q2nmle$5stj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <8267b0f1-ce0c-05f1-928c-98b555d253aa@msapiro.net>
 <q2npk8$5nhc$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <23631.55946.908372.682099@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

David Gibbs via Mailman-Users writes:
 > On 1/28/19 2:25 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
 > > List of addresses (or regexps) whose posts should always apply 
 > > dmarc_moderation_action regardless of any domain specific DMARC Policy.
 > 
 > That's close to what I want ... the only issue is that I'm looking for the 
 > behavior to be site wide not on a per-list basis.

Unfortunately, that's a fundamental problem with Mailman 2's web admin
design; it doesn't know about sites, only about lists, with the
(single) site being implicit.  This is addressed in Mailman 3.

I would guess that it wouldn't be hard to write a script for Mailman 2
using mailman/bin/withlist to do the updates.

Steve


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jan 29 01:13:40 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 22:13:40 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Manually treat certain domains as if they have
 restrictive DMARC policy
In-Reply-To: <23631.55946.908372.682099@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <q2nmle$5stj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <8267b0f1-ce0c-05f1-928c-98b555d253aa@msapiro.net>
 <q2npk8$5nhc$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <23631.55946.908372.682099@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <394e657b-da81-9d70-c334-2d425b57ada9@msapiro.net>

On 1/28/19 8:46 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> David Gibbs via Mailman-Users writes:
>  > 
>  > That's close to what I want ... the only issue is that I'm looking for the 
>  > behavior to be site wide not on a per-list basis.
> 
> I would guess that it wouldn't be hard to write a script for Mailman 2
> using mailman/bin/withlist to do the updates.


As Steve says, a withlist script to update all lists is not at all complex.

Also, Adding a global setting for dmarc_moderation_addresses on top of
the per-list setting is not difficult either. See
<https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/revision/1574>
for how this was done for a global ban_list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From odhiambo at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 06:34:13 2019
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 14:34:13 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Br0ken Mailman - Ubuntu 18.04.1 LTS
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WM3PZV-LepGMfe1FQ-rOELGD6fiY+hC1OVbomNqWdji8w@mail.gmail.com>

I got an error this morning about some strange permission while run the
cron.

Cron <list at lists> [ -x /usr/local/mailman/cron/senddigests ] &&
/usr/local/mailman/cron/senddigests:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/mailman/cron/senddigests", line 120, in <module>
    main()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/cron/senddigests", line 98, in main
    mlist = MailList.MailList(listname, lock=0)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 133, in __init__
    self.Load()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 693, in Load
    dict, e = self.__load(file)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 656, in __load
    fp = open(dbfile)
IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied:
'/usr/local/mailman/lists/skunkworks/config.pck'

So I fumbled around trying to figure it out without success!
bin/check_perms -f did not help either.

And now I tried to manually recompile and build mailman and ended up with
even more problems:

root at lists:/home/wash/Mailman/2.1.29/mailman-2.1.29# ./configure
--with-cgi-gid=33 --with-mail-gid=117
checking for --with-python... no
checking for python... /usr/bin/python
checking Python interpreter... /usr/bin/python
checking Python version... 2.7.15rc1
checking dnspython... Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "conftest.py", line 2, in <module>
    import dns.resolver
  File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/resolver.py", line 33, in <module>
  File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/message.py", line 36, in <module>
  File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/rrset.py", line 24, in <module>
  File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/renderer.py", line 26, in <module>
  File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/tsig.py", line 64, in <module>
  File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/name.py", line 912, in from_text
struct.error: cannot convert argument to integer
cat: conftest.out: No such file or directory

.......
.......

make install
......
......

Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/CommandRunner.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/MaildirRunner.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/NewsRunner.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/OutgoingRunner.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/RetryRunner.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/VirginRunner.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/__init__.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/sbcache.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/SafeDict.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/SecurityManager.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Site.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/TopicMgr.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/UserDesc.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Utils.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Version.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/__init__.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/i18n.py ...
Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/versions.py ...
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "bin/update", line 50, in <module>
    from Mailman import Utils
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Utils.py", line 76, in <module>
    import dns.resolver
  File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/resolver.py", line 33, in <module>
  File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/message.py", line 36, in <module>
  File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/rrset.py", line 24, in <module>
  File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/renderer.py", line 26, in <module>
  File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/tsig.py", line 64, in <module>
  File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/name.py", line 912, in from_text
struct.error: cannot convert argument to integer
Makefile:133: recipe for target 'update' failed
make: *** [update] Error 1

And of now I am just flummoxed :)

What is it about this dns,resolver??



-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223
"Oh, the cruft.", grep ^[^#] :-)

From odhiambo at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 07:17:22 2019
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 15:17:22 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Br0ken Mailman - Ubuntu 18.04.1 LTS - SOLVED
In-Reply-To: <CAAdA2WM3PZV-LepGMfe1FQ-rOELGD6fiY+hC1OVbomNqWdji8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAdA2WM3PZV-LepGMfe1FQ-rOELGD6fiY+hC1OVbomNqWdji8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WPKimay5D1fBajhYVg4jxSukGrXu8WMkZXrGhRbP_Ee3w@mail.gmail.com>

I somehow managed to solve this:
apt install python-pip
/usr/bin/pip uninstall dnspython
/usr/bin/pip install dnspython

Ubuntu seems to have moved python2.7 to /usr/bin while making python3.7
resident in /usr/local/bin


On Tue, 29 Jan 2019 at 14:34, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I got an error this morning about some strange permission while run the
> cron.
>
> Cron <list at lists> [ -x /usr/local/mailman/cron/senddigests ] &&
> /usr/local/mailman/cron/senddigests:
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/cron/senddigests", line 120, in <module>
>     main()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/cron/senddigests", line 98, in main
>     mlist = MailList.MailList(listname, lock=0)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 133, in __init__
>     self.Load()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 693, in Load
>     dict, e = self.__load(file)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 656, in __load
>     fp = open(dbfile)
> IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied:
> '/usr/local/mailman/lists/skunkworks/config.pck'
>
> So I fumbled around trying to figure it out without success!
> bin/check_perms -f did not help either.
>
> And now I tried to manually recompile and build mailman and ended up with
> even more problems:
>
> root at lists:/home/wash/Mailman/2.1.29/mailman-2.1.29# ./configure
> --with-cgi-gid=33 --with-mail-gid=117
> checking for --with-python... no
> checking for python... /usr/bin/python
> checking Python interpreter... /usr/bin/python
> checking Python version... 2.7.15rc1
> checking dnspython... Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "conftest.py", line 2, in <module>
>     import dns.resolver
>   File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/resolver.py", line 33, in <module>
>   File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/message.py", line 36, in <module>
>   File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/rrset.py", line 24, in <module>
>   File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/renderer.py", line 26, in <module>
>   File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/tsig.py", line 64, in <module>
>   File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/name.py", line 912, in from_text
> struct.error: cannot convert argument to integer
> cat: conftest.out: No such file or directory
>
> .......
> .......
>
> make install
> ......
> ......
>
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/CommandRunner.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/MaildirRunner.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/NewsRunner.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/OutgoingRunner.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/RetryRunner.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/VirginRunner.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/__init__.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/sbcache.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/SafeDict.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/SecurityManager.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Site.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/TopicMgr.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/UserDesc.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Utils.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Version.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/__init__.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/i18n.py ...
> Compiling /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/versions.py ...
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "bin/update", line 50, in <module>
>     from Mailman import Utils
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Utils.py", line 76, in <module>
>     import dns.resolver
>   File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/resolver.py", line 33, in <module>
>   File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/message.py", line 36, in <module>
>   File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/rrset.py", line 24, in <module>
>   File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/renderer.py", line 26, in <module>
>   File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/tsig.py", line 64, in <module>
>   File "build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/dns/name.py", line 912, in from_text
> struct.error: cannot convert argument to integer
> Makefile:133: recipe for target 'update' failed
> make: *** [update] Error 1
>
> And of now I am just flummoxed :)
>
> What is it about this dns,resolver??
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
> Nairobi,KE
> +254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223
> "Oh, the cruft.", grep ^[^#] :-)
>


-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223
"Oh, the cruft.", grep ^[^#] :-)

From david at midrange.com  Tue Jan 29 09:55:07 2019
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:55:07 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Manually treat certain domains as if they have
 restrictive DMARC policy
In-Reply-To: <394e657b-da81-9d70-c334-2d425b57ada9@msapiro.net>
References: <q2nmle$5stj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <8267b0f1-ce0c-05f1-928c-98b555d253aa@msapiro.net>
 <q2npk8$5nhc$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <23631.55946.908372.682099@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <394e657b-da81-9d70-c334-2d425b57ada9@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <q2ppgb$59qm$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 1/29/2019 12:13 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Also, Adding a global setting for dmarc_moderation_addresses on top of
> the per-list setting is not difficult either. See
> <https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/revision/1574>
> for how this was done for a global ban_list.

I'm by no means a Python expert (far from it), but I hacked this together...

=== modified file 'Mailman/Defaults.py.in'
--- Mailman/Defaults.py.in      2018-07-12 03:14:02 +0000
+++ Mailman/Defaults.py.in      2019-01-29 14:27:59 +0000
@@ -145,6 +145,11 @@
  # GLOBAL_BAN_LIST = ['xxx at aol\.com', '^yyy.*@gmail\.com$']
  GLOBAL_BAN_LIST = []

+# Installation wide DMARC list.  This is a list of email addresses and
+# regexp patterns (beginning with ^) that will be treated as if they
+# have a restrictive DMARC policy. Same examples as GLOBAL_BAN_LIST
+GLOBAL_DMARC_LIST = []
+
  # If the following is set to Yes, and a web subscribe comes from an IPv4
  # address and the IP is listed in Spamhaus SBL, CSS or XBL, the subscription
  # will be blocked.  It will work with IPv6 addresses if Python's py2-ipaddress

=== modified file 'Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py'
--- Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py      2018-12-01 04:13:12 +0000
+++ Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py      2019-01-29 14:24:26 +0000
@@ -110,6 +110,7 @@
          dn, addr = parseaddr(msg.get('from'))
          if addr and mlist.dmarc_moderation_action > 0:
              if (mlist.GetPattern(addr, mlist.dmarc_moderation_addresses) or
+                mlist.getPattern(addr, mm_cfg.GLOBAL_DMARC_LIST) or
                  Utils.IsDMARCProhibited(mlist, addr)):
                  # Note that for dmarc_moderation_action, 0 = Accept,
                  #    1 = Munge, 2 = Wrap, 3 = Reject, 4 = Discard





-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding 615 miles (Yes, you read that right) in the American Diabetes Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax-deductible donation to my ride by visiting https://gmane.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map ... https://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jan 29 12:40:12 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 09:40:12 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Manually treat certain domains as if they have
 restrictive DMARC policy
In-Reply-To: <q2ppgb$59qm$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <q2nmle$5stj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <8267b0f1-ce0c-05f1-928c-98b555d253aa@msapiro.net>
 <q2npk8$5nhc$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <23631.55946.908372.682099@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <394e657b-da81-9d70-c334-2d425b57ada9@msapiro.net>
 <q2ppgb$59qm$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <d367e93e-dc7a-584e-ff4d-975520268fb2@msapiro.net>

On 1/29/19 6:55 AM, David Gibbs via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> I'm by no means a Python expert (far from it), but I hacked this
> together...
> 
> === modified file 'Mailman/Defaults.py.in'
> --- Mailman/Defaults.py.in????? 2018-07-12 03:14:02 +0000
> +++ Mailman/Defaults.py.in????? 2019-01-29 14:27:59 +0000
> @@ -145,6 +145,11 @@
> ?# GLOBAL_BAN_LIST = ['xxx at aol\.com', '^yyy.*@gmail\.com$']
> ?GLOBAL_BAN_LIST = []
> 
> +# Installation wide DMARC list.? This is a list of email addresses and
> +# regexp patterns (beginning with ^) that will be treated as if they
> +# have a restrictive DMARC policy. Same examples as GLOBAL_BAN_LIST
> +GLOBAL_DMARC_LIST = []
> +
> ?# If the following is set to Yes, and a web subscribe comes from an IPv4
> ?# address and the IP is listed in Spamhaus SBL, CSS or XBL, the subscription
> ?# will be blocked.? It will work with IPv6 addresses if Python's py2-ipaddress


The above is good, but you will have to run 'configure' with appropriate
options to propagate that to Defaults.py and then add your actual list
by setting GLOBAL_DMARC_LIST in mm_cfg.py.


> === modified file 'Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py'
> --- Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py????? 2018-12-01 04:13:12 +0000
> +++ Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py????? 2019-01-29 14:24:26 +0000
> @@ -110,6 +110,7 @@
> ???????? dn, addr = parseaddr(msg.get('from'))
> ???????? if addr and mlist.dmarc_moderation_action > 0:
> ???????????? if (mlist.GetPattern(addr, mlist.dmarc_moderation_addresses) or
> +??????????????? mlist.getPattern(addr, mm_cfg.GLOBAL_DMARC_LIST) or

GetPattern, not getPattern. Otherwise good.

> ???????????????? Utils.IsDMARCProhibited(mlist, addr)):
> ???????????????? # Note that for dmarc_moderation_action, 0 = Accept,
> ???????????????? #??? 1 = Munge, 2 = Wrap, 3 = Reject, 4 = Discard
> 


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jan 29 18:21:04 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 15:21:04 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Br0ken Mailman - Ubuntu 18.04.1 LTS
In-Reply-To: <CAAdA2WM3PZV-LepGMfe1FQ-rOELGD6fiY+hC1OVbomNqWdji8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAdA2WM3PZV-LepGMfe1FQ-rOELGD6fiY+hC1OVbomNqWdji8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ae40e9fa-8759-6e99-2644-807b43783249@msapiro.net>

On 1/29/19 3:34 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> I got an error this morning about some strange permission while run the
> cron.
> 
> Cron <list at lists> [ -x /usr/local/mailman/cron/senddigests ] &&
> /usr/local/mailman/cron/senddigests:
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/cron/senddigests", line 120, in <module>
>     main()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/cron/senddigests", line 98, in main
>     mlist = MailList.MailList(listname, lock=0)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 133, in __init__
>     self.Load()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 693, in Load
>     dict, e = self.__load(file)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 656, in __load
>     fp = open(dbfile)
> IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied:
> '/usr/local/mailman/lists/skunkworks/config.pck'
> 
> So I fumbled around trying to figure it out without success!
> bin/check_perms -f did not help either.


Was this a new list or one that was present during a prior successful
cron/senddigests run?

Could you access the list via the web UI?

What user runs the cron, i.e. the owner of the crontab or the listed
user is a system crontab, and can that user access the config.pck file?
Can that user successfully run cron/senddigests manually?

If the above doesn't give clues, maybe apparmor is involved.

Maybe it was a transient glitch.

In any case, I wouldn't expect re-installing Mailman to correct a
permissions problem if check_perms didn't find anything.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From odhiambo at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 01:44:01 2019
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 09:44:01 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Br0ken Mailman - Ubuntu 18.04.1 LTS
In-Reply-To: <ae40e9fa-8759-6e99-2644-807b43783249@msapiro.net>
References: <CAAdA2WM3PZV-LepGMfe1FQ-rOELGD6fiY+hC1OVbomNqWdji8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <ae40e9fa-8759-6e99-2644-807b43783249@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WPa=XJaAwLWCZNkqY14iQK7+oE7UB9mYaqSNaER92-8Eg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 at 02:21, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 1/29/19 3:34 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> > I got an error this morning about some strange permission while run the
> > cron.
> >
> > Cron <list at lists> [ -x /usr/local/mailman/cron/senddigests ] &&
> > /usr/local/mailman/cron/senddigests:
> >
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> >   File "/usr/local/mailman/cron/senddigests", line 120, in <module>
> >     main()
> >   File "/usr/local/mailman/cron/senddigests", line 98, in main
> >     mlist = MailList.MailList(listname, lock=0)
> >   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 133, in __init__
> >     self.Load()
> >   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 693, in Load
> >     dict, e = self.__load(file)
> >   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 656, in __load
> >     fp = open(dbfile)
> > IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied:
> > '/usr/local/mailman/lists/skunkworks/config.pck'
> >
> > So I fumbled around trying to figure it out without success!
> > bin/check_perms -f did not help either.
>
>
> Was this a new list or one that was present during a prior successful
> cron/senddigests run?
>

It's an existing list.


>
> Could you access the list via the web UI?
>

After fixing the issues I had with dns.resolver, the list is alive and I
can do everything
via the web UI.
However, the cron errors still persist.


> What user runs the cron, i.e. the owner of the crontab or the listed
> user is a system crontab, and can that user access the config.pck file?
> Can that user successfully run cron/senddigests manually?
>

The contrab file is in /etc/cron.d/ and is owned by root:root like all the
files I see in there.




> If the above doesn't give clues, maybe apparmor is involved.
>

I need to figure out what apparmor is. Heading to Google :)

>
> Maybe it was a transient glitch.
>

It is not, because this morning I have seen permission problems with other
aspects of the cron.


> In any case, I wouldn't expect re-installing Mailman to correct a
> permissions problem if check_perms didn't find anything.
>

That is the strange part - check_perms -f isn't fixing it.

root at lists:/etc/cron.d#  /usr/local/mailman/bin/check_perms
No problems found

-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223
"Oh, the cruft.", grep ^[^#] :-)

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jan 30 12:43:44 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 09:43:44 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Br0ken Mailman - Ubuntu 18.04.1 LTS
In-Reply-To: <CAAdA2WPa=XJaAwLWCZNkqY14iQK7+oE7UB9mYaqSNaER92-8Eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAdA2WM3PZV-LepGMfe1FQ-rOELGD6fiY+hC1OVbomNqWdji8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <ae40e9fa-8759-6e99-2644-807b43783249@msapiro.net>
 <CAAdA2WPa=XJaAwLWCZNkqY14iQK7+oE7UB9mYaqSNaER92-8Eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d4205506-a096-b6dd-930d-0b41b95cec1b@msapiro.net>

On 1/29/19 10:44 PM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> 
> The contrab file is in /etc/cron.d/ and is owned by root:root like all the
> files I see in there.


And in that file, the entries have 5 date/time fields followed by a 6th
field which is the user to run the command as.

What is this user and does it have permission?

It should be the Mailman user which I think is 'list' in the Ubuntu package.


> That is the strange part - check_perms -f isn't fixing it.
> 
> root at lists:/etc/cron.d#  /usr/local/mailman/bin/check_perms
> No problems found


check_perms checks that Mailman's group (again, probably 'list') is the
group of the files and directories and that the owner and group
permissions are as they should be. That can be all correct and you will
still have issues if commands are not being run as the Mailman user.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From rdiezmail-temp2 at yahoo.de  Thu Jan 31 05:11:48 2019
From: rdiezmail-temp2 at yahoo.de (R. Diez)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 11:11:48 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject
In-Reply-To: <0ae2c9fd-58a1-a79d-6c06-ebc1fef9c92f@yahoo.de>
References: <0ae2c9fd-58a1-a79d-6c06-ebc1fef9c92f@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <3d8bf840-c253-abb7-e22e-87b5ffba9218@yahoo.de>

Hi all:

I have the following recurring problem with mailing lists all over the Internet: people do reply to my posts, by they do not address or copy 
me in their replies. They send their e-mails only to the mailing list. Or they reply to the previous reply, and forget to copy the original 
poster.

So I do not get a copy of the relevant messages straight away. If need to manually fish their answers from the web interface. If there is 
one. And then composing e-mails is cumbersome. And the subject threading no longer works properly.

This problem has annoyed me (and other people on the Internet) for a long time.

I cannot subscribe to every mailing list I need to occasionally use. It's far too much. This e-mail is the perfect example of such a 
come-ask-and-go-again scenario.

If I need to subscribe in order to post a question, I turn off mail delivery straight away.

Getting a digest with all e-mails does not help either. Replying to a single e-mail in this mode is cumbersome too. Besides, I do not want 
to manually skip other messages which do not interest me.

Other forum software has a nice feature for this scenario: If I post to a subject, I am automatically subscribed to that subject. I then get 
an e-mail for any new posts with the same subject.

The "topic" feature in Mailman is different. Very few people use it. I need something based on the e-mail subject.

Is there any way to achieve that with Mailman?

Thanks in advance,
   rdiez


From editor at visionscience.com  Thu Jan 31 10:04:55 2019
From: editor at visionscience.com (editor at visionscience.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 07:04:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] incorrect spam labelling
Message-ID: <6EECE8F3-23FC-414A-AD7C-14589C1272CB@visionscience.com>

Not sure if this is a mailman issue, but?

Occasionally as moderator I see messages in which "***SPAM*** ? has been prepended to the subject line.
The messages are not spam.
I do not want to send them out to the list like that but cannot edit the subject line.
Is there anything I can do?

-Andrew


From luscheina at yahoo.de  Thu Jan 31 12:42:10 2019
From: luscheina at yahoo.de (Christian F Buser)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 18:42:10 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject
In-Reply-To: <3d8bf840-c253-abb7-e22e-87b5ffba9218@yahoo.de>
References: <0ae2c9fd-58a1-a79d-6c06-ebc1fef9c92f@yahoo.de>
 <3d8bf840-c253-abb7-e22e-87b5ffba9218@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <20190131184210257526.616812da@yahoo.de>

Hello R. Diez via Mailman-Users. On Thu, 31 Jan 2019 11:11:48 +0100, you wrote:

> I have the following recurring problem with mailing lists all over 
> the Internet: people do reply to my posts, by they do not address or 
> copy me in their replies. They send their e-mails only to the mailing 
> list. Or they reply to the previous reply, and forget to copy the 
> original poster.

If I post a question to a list, I am also a subscriber to the list and I get replies to my question that way. 
 
> So I do not get a copy of the relevant messages straight away.

A mailing list may have a web archive, but the standard thing is that the conversation goes via e-mail. 

> I cannot subscribe to every mailing list I need to occasionally use. 
> It's far too much. This e-mail is the perfect example of such a 
> come-ask-and-go-again scenario.

So, to post to _this_ list, you had to subscribe to it. You may remain a subscriber until your question is answered. Where is the problem? 

> If I need to subscribe in order to post a question, I turn off mail 
> delivery straight away.

Aha. 

> Other forum software has a nice feature for this scenario: If I post 
> to a subject, I am automatically subscribed to that subject. I then 
> get an e-mail for any new posts with the same subject.

I think you are talking here about a web forum, where you can "subscribe" to information posted to a certain thread. I never saw this in a real mailing list. 

I Cc: this reply to you to make sure you see it - but I won?t do this for every message I write to any mailing list normally. 

Christian 

-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)      
Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jan 31 12:47:30 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 09:47:30 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject
In-Reply-To: <3d8bf840-c253-abb7-e22e-87b5ffba9218@yahoo.de>
References: <0ae2c9fd-58a1-a79d-6c06-ebc1fef9c92f@yahoo.de>
 <3d8bf840-c253-abb7-e22e-87b5ffba9218@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <cc4ac752-9c3d-46f8-67e4-28db04265c08@msapiro.net>

On 1/31/19 2:11 AM, R. Diez via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> Other forum software has a nice feature for this scenario: If I post to
> a subject, I am automatically subscribed to that subject. I then get an
> e-mail for any new posts with the same subject.
> 
> The "topic" feature in Mailman is different. Very few people use it. I
> need something based on the e-mail subject.
> 
> Is there any way to achieve that with Mailman?


Systers Mailman has a 'dlist' (dynamic sublists) feature which may be
what you want. This is mentioned at
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2010-August/070057.html>.
That post is old and the repo at <https://launchpad.net/systers>
mentioned therein is also old, but it still exists although the
documentation links in the post and the README files in the repo are all
broken.

We have been looking at dlists or something similar for Mailman 3, and
Systers also has done Mailman 3 work (see <https://github.com/systers>).

You may be able to port the changes from <https://launchpad.net/systers>
to more current Mailman, or perhaps contact Systers for more
information. It appears they are still using a Mailman 2.1.12 version
with their changes. I.e., see <http://systers.org/mailman/listinfo/>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From rdiezmail-temp2 at yahoo.de  Thu Jan 31 12:58:47 2019
From: rdiezmail-temp2 at yahoo.de (R. Diez)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 18:58:47 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject
In-Reply-To: <20190131184210257526.616812da@yahoo.de>
References: <0ae2c9fd-58a1-a79d-6c06-ebc1fef9c92f@yahoo.de>
 <3d8bf840-c253-abb7-e22e-87b5ffba9218@yahoo.de>
 <20190131184210257526.616812da@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <a1279f35-b8c1-4702-7066-c4b71a5d68d2@yahoo.de>


 > [...]
> I think you are talking here about a web forum, where you can "subscribe"
> to information posted to a certain thread. I never saw this in a real mailing list.
> 
> I Cc: this reply to you to make sure you see it - but I won???t do this for
> every message I write to any mailing list normally.
 > [...]


This is a serious shortcoming in Mailman. I am surprised that such a basic human communication issue has not been properly addressed.

See here what kind of effect that can have. From the message below, a long discussion follows on this subject:

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2018-July/294510.html

I would like to specifically mention the following page, which accurate describes the problem:

http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html

All that would not be necessary if Mailman were smart enough. It already knows how to group e-mails by subject. It could make sure the participants 
are all kept in the loop.

Regards,
   rdiez

From terry at fiteyes.com  Thu Jan 31 13:12:38 2019
From: terry at fiteyes.com (Terry Earley)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 11:12:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] incorrect spam labelling
In-Reply-To: <6EECE8F3-23FC-414A-AD7C-14589C1272CB@visionscience.com>
References: <6EECE8F3-23FC-414A-AD7C-14589C1272CB@visionscience.com>
Message-ID: <CAL3ZyvBbxjFjgkFBOH4Y+EDQ5d0wWJWoOyjM3_78=gtoSZh+TA@mail.gmail.com>

When a subject is not relevant to the body of the message or missing, the
moderator will re-post with a corrected subject. At the top of that
re-post, he includes the reason. That reminds other members to pay
attention to the subject field when posting.

Terry Earley



On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 10:16 AM editor at visionscience.com <
editor at visionscience.com> wrote:

> Not sure if this is a mailman issue, but?
>
> Occasionally as moderator I see messages in which "***SPAM*** ? has been
> prepended to the subject line.
> The messages are not spam.
> I do not want to send them out to the list like that but cannot edit the
> subject line.
> Is there anything I can do?
>
> -Andrew
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/terry%40fiteyes.com
>

From tlhackque at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 31 13:35:20 2019
From: tlhackque at yahoo.com (tlhackque)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 13:35:20 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject
In-Reply-To: <3d8bf840-c253-abb7-e22e-87b5ffba9218@yahoo.de>
References: <0ae2c9fd-58a1-a79d-6c06-ebc1fef9c92f@yahoo.de>
 <3d8bf840-c253-abb7-e22e-87b5ffba9218@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <2cefcbb6-1660-1e97-f432-178e1ac56897@yahoo.com>

On 31-Jan-19 05:11, R. Diez wrote:
> Hi all:
>
> I have the following recurring problem with mailing lists all over the
> Internet: people do reply to my posts, by they do not address or copy
> me in their replies. They send their e-mails only to the mailing list.
> Or they reply to the previous reply, and forget to copy the original
> poster.
>
> So I do not get a copy of the relevant messages straight away. If need
> to manually fish their answers from the web interface. If there is
> one. And then composing e-mails is cumbersome. And the subject
> threading no longer works properly.
>
> This problem has annoyed me (and other people on the Internet) for a
> long time.
>
> I cannot subscribe to every mailing list I need to occasionally use.
> It's far too much. This e-mail is the perfect example of such a
> come-ask-and-go-again scenario.
>
> If I need to subscribe in order to post a question, I turn off mail
> delivery straight away.
>
> Getting a digest with all e-mails does not help either. Replying to a
> single e-mail in this mode is cumbersome too. Besides, I do not want
> to manually skip other messages which do not interest me.
>
> Other forum software has a nice feature for this scenario: If I post
> to a subject, I am automatically subscribed to that subject. I then
> get an e-mail for any new posts with the same subject.
>
> The "topic" feature in Mailman is different. Very few people use it. I
> need something based on the e-mail subject.
>
> Is there any way to achieve that with Mailman?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> ? rdiez
>
>
While I sympathize, I should also point out that this behavior goes
against the underlying philosophy of many mailing lists.

In that context, it is viewed as "selfish" to only ask for help while
never providing any.? If you don't read the list, you can't offer help
to others.? You don't have to be an 'expert' to be able to answer
questions, or to help an 'expert' to understand a novice's point of
view.? Communities are built from cooperation.

It should be up to a list owner to decide whether or not to enable a
feature that facilitates "take but don't give" behavior.? The list norms
should decide if "ask and run" or "ignore everyone else" is considered
anti-social/exploitive or acceptable use.?

In my experience, people paid to support a product might be happy with
the feature enabled, while a volunteer community might oppose it.?

Of course, today you can subscribe to the list and put a client-side
filter in your MUA that discards any post that doesn't reference your
post.? (By subject or "References" header.)? That doesn't require any
new support in Mailman.



From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Thu Jan 31 13:45:46 2019
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2019 03:45:46 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] incorrect spam labelling
In-Reply-To: <6EECE8F3-23FC-414A-AD7C-14589C1272CB@visionscience.com>
References: <6EECE8F3-23FC-414A-AD7C-14589C1272CB@visionscience.com>
Message-ID: <23635.16986.514570.484632@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

editor at visionscience.com writes:

 > Not sure if this is a mailman issue, but?

It's not, although possibly Mailman can help mitigate it.

 > Occasionally as moderator I see messages in which "***SPAM*** ? has
 > been prepended to the subject line.  The messages are not spam.  I
 > do not want to send them out to the list like that but cannot edit
 > the subject line.  Is there anything I can do?

Not with only moderator privileges.  Stock Mailman doesn't modify
messages in the moderation queue in that way.  So the spam label has
been attached by some other application, or by modifying Mailman to
call a spam checker.

You may be able to get some help from your mail administrator, who can
tune the spam checker to make fewer errors, or whitelist your
subscribers, or something along those lines.

If you can configure and add code to the Mailman system, it would be
possible to add code to remove the offending text from the Subject
automatically.  (You don't have to modify any of the stock Mailman
code, so in that sense this is "safe".)  There may be other
indications of "spamminess" that should be removed as well, hidden in
the header.

If you can configure/add code to Mailman and want help with the
programming, please send a copy of the header portion of such a post 
so we can see all of the the potential spamminess indicators.

Steve

-- 
Associate Professor              Division of Policy and Planning Science
http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/     Faculty of Systems and Information
Email: turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp                   University of Tsukuba
Tel: 029-853-5175                 Tennodai 1-1-1, Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Thu Jan 31 13:53:47 2019
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2019 03:53:47 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject
In-Reply-To: <3d8bf840-c253-abb7-e22e-87b5ffba9218@yahoo.de>
References: <0ae2c9fd-58a1-a79d-6c06-ebc1fef9c92f@yahoo.de>
 <3d8bf840-c253-abb7-e22e-87b5ffba9218@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <23635.17467.666753.682717@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

R. Diez via Mailman-Users writes:

 > I have the following recurring problem with mailing lists all over
 > the Internet: people do reply to my posts, by they do not address
 > or copy me in their replies. They send their e-mails only to the
 > mailing list. Or they reply to the previous reply, and forget to
 > copy the original poster.

A mailing list may send mail to tens, thousands, or millions of
people.  If you have no connection to them, but post to the list for
your own benefit, that is called "spam".  It is generally considered
somewhere between rude and criminal.  At the very least you should
establish a minimal connection by subscribing.

 > This problem has annoyed me (and other people on the Internet) for
 > a long time.

It's not a problem with mailing lists; the kind of interaction you
desire is not what they're designed for.  That kind of interaction has
its place, but the software has to implement a "pull" model so that
nobody needs to make any effort to ignore everybody else.

 > Other forum software has a nice feature for this scenario: If I
 > post to a subject, I am automatically subscribed to that subject. I
 > then get an e-mail for any new posts with the same subject.

Mailman is not forum software.  Mailing lists support communities of
people, not question and answer threads.  If you want forum behavior,
use forum software, or in some applications you can use an issue
tracker.  If the community prefers mailing lists, they have a reason
for that, and you're out of luck: join the community and deal with the
mail, or look for replies in the archives.

 > Is there any way to achieve that with Mailman?

Not as a subscriber, no.  Mailing lists simply don't work that way,
because they're fundamentally based on a "push" model.  The only way
to get the behavior you want is to switch to forum or tracker
software based on a "pull" model.

It's possible that in a future version of Mailman 3 a feature called
"dynamic sublists" will be available, but it is dependent on the
poster taking special action to create the thread.  It doesn't allow
you to exclude all mail except the single thread you're interested in:
to get any posts you must subscribe, and then you'll see all thread
roots.  Of course, you can already have this with an appropriately
configured threading mail client, but dynamic sublists save bandwidth
and diskspace.

Again, if you want forum behavior, convince the community to use forum
software.

Steve


From weif at weif.net  Thu Jan 31 14:29:44 2019
From: weif at weif.net (Keith Seyffarth)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 12:29:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject
In-Reply-To: <a1279f35-b8c1-4702-7066-c4b71a5d68d2@yahoo.de>
 (mailman-users@python.org)
Message-ID: <847eek1v87.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>

> All that would not be necessary if Mailman were smart enough. It
> already knows how to group e-mails by subject. It could make sure the
> participants 
> are all kept in the loop.

Except then you run into ethical issues and possible legal violations of
emailing people who have not opted-n to receive the email. Just posting
to a web forum does not automatically subscribe you to a thread, you
have to check that you want notifications - and before you can even get
to that point, you have to create an account so you can post. And, as
has been pointed out previously in this discussion, there is a
difference between mailing lists and web forums or bulletin boards...



From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jan 31 14:49:03 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 11:49:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] incorrect spam labelling
In-Reply-To: <6EECE8F3-23FC-414A-AD7C-14589C1272CB@visionscience.com>
References: <6EECE8F3-23FC-414A-AD7C-14589C1272CB@visionscience.com>
Message-ID: <c90c8fc1-0950-cdf8-2abd-bebbb14371c9@msapiro.net>

On 1/31/19 7:04 AM, editor at visionscience.com wrote:
> Not sure if this is a mailman issue, but?
> 
> Occasionally as moderator I see messages in which "***SPAM*** ? has been prepended to the subject line.
> The messages are not spam.
> I do not want to send them out to the list like that but cannot edit the subject line.
> Is there anything I can do?


Yes, but it's cumbersome, particularly if you don't have good tools, but
here's a way.

In the admindb interface discard the held message, but also check the
'Forward messages (individually) to:' box and enter your own address, or
if you received an immediate notification of the held message that
includes the message, you can skip the forward.

Now, one way or the other, you have an email containing a copy of the
message. Save that email or open it in a way that you can view the raw
message. From that raw message, extract (edit out other parts or
copy/paste) the raw original message, and then edit that to 'fix' the
subject and also remove certain problem headers. For example, if the
Mailman server MTA is Postfix, you need to remove the 'Delivered-To:
<list address>' header or Postfix won't deliver this one to the list.

I typically remove the Return-Path:, X-Original-To: and Delivered-To:
headers from the top of the message.

Now you resend that message to the list. If you have a 'sendmail'
command on your workstation you can just do

sendmail -f listname-bounces at list.domain listname at list.domain < file

where 'file' contains the edited message. If you don't have 'sendmail',
some MUAs will allow you to open the message and resend or 'bounce' it
back to the list.

Also, there is a very old patch at
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/557995> which enables editing
the headers and message body directly in the admindb interface. If you
have the ability to patch Mailman, this may work for you. I have updated
the patch so it applies cleanly to current Mailman, but it is not tested.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From rdiezmail-temp2 at yahoo.de  Thu Jan 31 15:05:28 2019
From: rdiezmail-temp2 at yahoo.de (R. Diez)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 21:05:28 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject
In-Reply-To: <23635.17467.666753.682717@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <0ae2c9fd-58a1-a79d-6c06-ebc1fef9c92f@yahoo.de>
 <3d8bf840-c253-abb7-e22e-87b5ffba9218@yahoo.de>
 <23635.17467.666753.682717@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <79a5ffef-6b35-a921-66fa-c0091045c749@yahoo.de>


 > [...]
> If you have no connection to them, but post to the list for
> your own benefit, that is called "spam".  It is generally considered
> somewhere between rude and criminal.
 > [...]

Your comments are surprisingly unfair for someone in a mailing list for mailing list software.

Let's take me as an example. I do have a connection with you. I am a user of your software, on multiple mailing lists. And this particular mailing 
list is open for anybody. It's fine to drop by for a short while. I did not see anywhere any notice that only close affiliates are welcome. Heck, this 
mailing list is called "users", and not "developers" or "mailman clan only".

I asked about a way around a perceived limitation, and in the face of the answer, I contributed with reasoning and examples (a couple of links) about 
a missing feature and why it is important. You may not like my view. You may have a strong idea about how mailing list administrators should use your 
software. But am I spamming? Is this discussion not welcome here then?

Maybe you are implying that only people who read all posts for a few weeks and commit further resources to this project are entitled to voice their 
matters here. I find this a strange view on how to develop a community. It is rather off-putting.

Other projects have benefited from a bug report or a small patch I sent to their mailing lists. I was never actually subscribed to any of those.

If all this actually bugs you, maybe you can convince you community to make this mailing list private for proven contributors, and leave out those 
people who probably just want to benefit from your open-source project?

Regards,
   rdiez

From brian at emwd.com  Thu Jan 31 13:58:54 2019
From: brian at emwd.com (Brian Carpenter)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 13:58:54 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] incorrect spam labelling
In-Reply-To: <6EECE8F3-23FC-414A-AD7C-14589C1272CB@visionscience.com>
References: <6EECE8F3-23FC-414A-AD7C-14589C1272CB@visionscience.com>
Message-ID: <07b601d4b997$03a7dd00$0af79700$@emwd.com>

> Not sure if this is a mailman issue, but?
> 
> Occasionally as moderator I see messages in which "***SPAM*** ? has been
> prepended to the subject line.
> The messages are not spam.
> I do not want to send them out to the list like that but cannot edit the subject
> line.
> Is there anything I can do?
> 
> -Andrew

That is not Mailman. It is most likely coming from Spamassassin. Is your mailman list on a cPanel server?

Brian Carpenter
Owner

Now offering Mailman 3 list hosting!
https://mailman3host.com


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jan 31 16:16:14 2019
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 13:16:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject
In-Reply-To: <79a5ffef-6b35-a921-66fa-c0091045c749@yahoo.de>
References: <0ae2c9fd-58a1-a79d-6c06-ebc1fef9c92f@yahoo.de>
 <3d8bf840-c253-abb7-e22e-87b5ffba9218@yahoo.de>
 <23635.17467.666753.682717@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <79a5ffef-6b35-a921-66fa-c0091045c749@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <e2c00c50-9ba4-38b5-f000-9e6b27aa9b61@msapiro.net>

On 1/31/19 12:05 PM, R. Diez via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> I asked about a way around a perceived limitation, and in the face of
> the answer, I contributed with reasoning and examples (a couple of
> links) about a missing feature and why it is important. You may not like
> my view. You may have a strong idea about how mailing list
> administrators should use your software. But am I spamming? Is this
> discussion not welcome here then?


I don't think anyone said you weren't entitled to post or that your post
was unwelcome.

People were responding to your desire to be able to post to a Mailman
list (any list, not just this one) and then receive all replies in that
thread and only that thread whether or not you were explicitly addressed.

Have you considered that you could subscribe for a while with delivery
enabled and then at your end filter out mail from the list that doesn't
match your subject or maybe doesn't contain References: to your post.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Thu Jan 31 23:57:23 2019
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 23:57:23 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Automatic subscription based on e-mail subject
In-Reply-To: <a1279f35-b8c1-4702-7066-c4b71a5d68d2@yahoo.de>
References: <0ae2c9fd-58a1-a79d-6c06-ebc1fef9c92f@yahoo.de>
 <3d8bf840-c253-abb7-e22e-87b5ffba9218@yahoo.de>
 <20190131184210257526.616812da@yahoo.de>
 <a1279f35-b8c1-4702-7066-c4b71a5d68d2@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <ad9cce90-b57e-558f-880a-f6dd6caf9a4c@Damon-Family.org>

On 1/31/19 12:58 PM, R. Diez via Mailman-Users wrote:
>
> > [...]
>> I think you are talking here about a web forum, where you can
>> "subscribe"
>> to information posted to a certain thread. I never saw this in a real
>> mailing list.
>>
>> I Cc: this reply to you to make sure you see it - but I won???t do
>> this for
>> every message I write to any mailing list normally.
> > [...]
>
>
> This is a serious shortcoming in Mailman. I am surprised that such a
> basic human communication issue has not been properly addressed.
>
> See here what kind of effect that can have. From the message below, a
> long discussion follows on this subject:
>
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2018-July/294510.html
>
> I would like to specifically mention the following page, which
> accurate describes the problem:
>
> http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html
>
> All that would not be necessary if Mailman were smart enough. It
> already knows how to group e-mails by subject. It could make sure the
> participants are all kept in the loop.
>
> Regards,
> ? rdiez 

Mailman really CAN'T be smart enough, as email isn't that sort of media.
The reader of the message reads the message, and decides where to send
the reply to. THEY decide whether to copy you or not as an explicit
destination, and likely different people will choose different choices.
Mailman when it gets the message knows enough to be able to distribute
it to subscribers in their chosen way.

Email doesn't really have the concept of a 'Topic' like a forum, the
closest email has is the In-Reply-To and References headers, but if the
list is sort of busy (which would be the only real reason to want to
limit what you get from the list) then it is actually a lot of work to
track, as for every message the list would need to check for every
subscriber if they have 'followed' ANY of the messages that this message
is a reply to, and if so add this message to the list. The problem is
that while on a forum, all messages posted in a topic, will be connected
to THAT topic, an email message doesn't necessarily keep track of all
the messages, or even the original message that it is a reply to, by the
standard, it is supposed to at a minimum refer to the message it is a
direct reply, and possible some number or previous messages in the chain.

The sort by subject is a very different thing, as that doesn't need to
know about individual subscribers, and if the 'topic' gets broken
because someone edited the subject slightly it isn't an issue, as the
data is still all there, will if you tried to keep a list of subjects
that a subscriber was interested in, they won't get messages where some
small change was made in the subject. Small changes can sometimes happen
just by slightly mis-configured software, doing things like adding
additional re: prefixes

I will ask you how much you are willing to talk to a person who
basically interrupts, says they aren't really interested in the general
conversation, so isn't really listening, but if you go out of your way
to answer in a special way they will hear you. (Which is one way to
describe what you are doing),

-- 
Richard Damon