From johnl at taugh.com  Tue Oct  2 15:49:49 2018
From: johnl at taugh.com (John Levine)
Date: 2 Oct 2018 15:49:49 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman consultants ?
Message-ID: <20181002194950.97C9220063BDDE@ary.qy>

An organization I know runs a bunch of Mailman lists for their
members, and the last person who understood Mailman recently quit.
It's a few dozen lists, none more than about 500 members.  They're
looking for someone to do the tech work, install updates, set up
configuration arcana, stuff like that.  The lists all have members who
manage them, no dealing with actual users expected.  

They're in Boston MA but remote work is fine.  It'd be very part time,
probably paying a fixed monthly fee.

Is there a list of people who do this kind of stuff?  Or is there
some other place I should inquire?

Regards,
John Levine, johnl at iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct  2 16:35:17 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 13:35:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman consultants ?
In-Reply-To: <20181002194950.97C9220063BDDE@ary.qy>
References: <20181002194950.97C9220063BDDE@ary.qy>
Message-ID: <dc2a8319-bb23-636e-8a47-2183e39f919d@msapiro.net>

On 10/02/2018 12:49 PM, John Levine wrote:
> 
> Is there a list of people who do this kind of stuff?  Or is there
> some other place I should inquire?


There is a short list at
<https://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20consulting%20services>. There is
also a link there to the Python Jobs Board.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From tundra at tundraware.com  Thu Oct  4 00:24:32 2018
From: tundra at tundraware.com (Tim Daneliuk)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 23:24:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sending Mail To List And Individual User
Message-ID: <9d886ea3-b46b-705f-1a88-881461e27e57@tundraware.com>

I have a list, foo at bar.com.   luser at splat.com is the administrator of that
list and also a member of the list.   If someone sends a message to foo at bar.com
luser gets a copy as expected.  However, if someone send mail with both
foo at bar.com and luser at splat.com as recipients, only the direct message for
luser shows up.  luser's copy of the list message never does.

How do I change this so luser gets both the copy directed to him as well
as the mailing list message?
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk     tundra at tundraware.com
PGP Key:         http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct  4 18:03:34 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:03:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sending Mail To List And Individual User
In-Reply-To: <9d886ea3-b46b-705f-1a88-881461e27e57@tundraware.com>
References: <9d886ea3-b46b-705f-1a88-881461e27e57@tundraware.com>
Message-ID: <6abf53ae-2460-4ee2-0317-9ad0d1af1682@msapiro.net>

On 10/03/2018 09:24 PM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
> 
> How do I change this so luser gets both the copy directed to him as well
> as the mailing list message?

On luser's options page set "Avoid duplicate copies of messages?" to No
or in the web admin membership list uncheck "nodupes" for luser.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From weif at weif.net  Thu Oct  4 18:31:36 2018
From: weif at weif.net (Keith Seyffarth)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 16:31:36 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sending Mail To List And Individual User
In-Reply-To: <9d886ea3-b46b-705f-1a88-881461e27e57@tundraware.com> (message
 from Tim Daneliuk on Wed, 3 Oct 2018 23:24:32 -0500)
Message-ID: <84h8i1jqd3.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>

Tim Daneliuk <tundra at tundraware.com> writes:

> I have a list, foo at bar.com.   luser at splat.com is the administrator of that
> list and also a member of the list.   If someone sends a message to foo at bar.com
> luser gets a copy as expected.  However, if someone send mail with both
> foo at bar.com and luser at splat.com as recipients, only the direct message for
> luser shows up.  luser's copy of the list message never does.
>
> How do I change this so luser gets both the copy directed to him as well
> as the mailing list message?

In the site admin, go to the membership list.
Find luser at splat.com and uncheck the check in the "not metoo" column.
Submit your changes.


-- 
----
from my mac to yours...

Keith Seyffarth
mailto:weif at weif.net
http://www.weif.net/ - Home of the First Tank Guide!
http://www.rpgcalendar.net/ - the Montana Role-Playing Calendar
----
http://www.miscon.org/ - Montana's Longest Running Science Fiction Convention

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct  4 18:47:14 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:47:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sending Mail To List And Individual User
In-Reply-To: <84h8i1jqd3.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
References: <84h8i1jqd3.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
Message-ID: <46b84938-373c-9ff9-6704-f5230b204618@msapiro.net>

On 10/04/2018 03:31 PM, Keith Seyffarth wrote:
> 
> In the site admin, go to the membership list.
> Find luser at splat.com and uncheck the check in the "not metoo" column.
> Submit your changes.


Actually, 'not metoo' controls whether you receive copies of your own
posts (posts From: you). The control for receiving copies of posts in
which you are directly addressed in To: or Cc: is 'nodups' as I said at
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2018-October/083833.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From geek at uniserve.com  Thu Oct  4 20:03:52 2018
From: geek at uniserve.com (Dave Stevens)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:03:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] debugging help - logs show mailman post executed
 but no mail
Message-ID: <20181004170352.782111f3@user-Satellite-A100>

so like this:

postfix/local[12525]: 0558C8ECC0F:
to=<daveonly-aqadvisories.ca at web5.bcenclave.ca>,
orig_to=<daveonly at aqadvisories.ca>, relay=local, delay=0.75,
delays=0.09/0/0/0.66, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to
command: /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post daveonly)

The list exists, the sender is subscribed and unmoderated the
destination email exists, the post operation seems to have worked
(where's the logfile???) but no mail delivered.

Where should I be looking?

D


-- 
In modern fantasy (literary or governmental), killing people is the
usual solution to the so-called war between good and evil. My books are
not conceived in terms of such a war, and offer no simple answers to
simplistic questions.

----- Ursula Le Guin

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct  4 22:16:24 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 19:16:24 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] debugging help - logs show mailman post
 executed but no mail
In-Reply-To: <20181004170352.782111f3@user-Satellite-A100>
References: <20181004170352.782111f3@user-Satellite-A100>
Message-ID: <63693b63-af84-7efd-1d8e-affdd0f405e3@msapiro.net>

On 10/04/2018 05:03 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
> 
> The list exists, the sender is subscribed and unmoderated the
> destination email exists, the post operation seems to have worked
> (where's the logfile???) but no mail delivered.
> 
> Where should I be looking?


In Mailman's logs. Particularly 'error', 'post', 'smtp' and
'smtp-failure'. Where they are depends on how Mailman was installed,
possibly /usr/lib/mailman/logs/ or /var/lib/mailman/logs/ or
/var/log/mailman/ or elsewhere depending on how Mailman was
configured/packaged.

If there is no error or smtp failure and there are entries in the 'post'
and 'smtp' logs, then the message was delivered to the outgoing MTA.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From tundra at tundraware.com  Thu Oct  4 23:17:04 2018
From: tundra at tundraware.com (Tim Daneliuk)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 22:17:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sending Mail To List And Individual User
In-Reply-To: <46b84938-373c-9ff9-6704-f5230b204618@msapiro.net>
References: <84h8i1jqd3.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
 <46b84938-373c-9ff9-6704-f5230b204618@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <2aafd348-9042-eb10-926a-924f62ffef98@tundraware.com>

On 10/04/2018 05:47 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/04/2018 03:31 PM, Keith Seyffarth wrote:
>>
>> In the site admin, go to the membership list.
>> Find luser at splat.com and uncheck the check in the "not metoo" column.
>> Submit your changes.
> 
> 
> Actually, 'not metoo' controls whether you receive copies of your own
> posts (posts From: you). The control for receiving copies of posts in
> which you are directly addressed in To: or Cc: is 'nodups' as I said at
> <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2018-October/083833.html>.
> 


Thanks all.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk     tundra at tundraware.com
PGP Key:         http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/


From geek at uniserve.com  Thu Oct  4 23:20:25 2018
From: geek at uniserve.com (Dave Stevens)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:20:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] debugging help - logs show mailman post
 executed but no mail
In-Reply-To: <63693b63-af84-7efd-1d8e-affdd0f405e3@msapiro.net>
References: <20181004170352.782111f3@user-Satellite-A100>
 <63693b63-af84-7efd-1d8e-affdd0f405e3@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20181004202025.5bd4595a@user-Satellite-A100>

On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 19:16:24 -0700
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 10/04/2018 05:03 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
> > 
> > The list exists, the sender is subscribed and unmoderated the
> > destination email exists, the post operation seems to have worked
> > (where's the logfile???) but no mail delivered.
> > 
> > Where should I be looking?  
> 
> 
> In Mailman's logs. Particularly 'error', 'post', 'smtp' and
> 'smtp-failure'. Where they are depends on how Mailman was installed,
> possibly /usr/lib/mailman/logs/ or /var/lib/mailman/logs/ or
> /var/log/mailman/ or elsewhere depending on how Mailman was
> configured/packaged.
> 
> If there is no error or smtp failure and there are entries in the
> 'post' and 'smtp' logs, then the message was delivered to the
> outgoing MTA.
> 

files from /var/log/mailman:

error exists and has a few entries but none as recent as Oct 3 which is
the failure date. 

post has this content only:

Oct 01 17:13:04 2018 (2966) post to amsdirectors from
geek at uniserve.com, size=2919,
message-id=<20181001171248.33c61328 at user-Satellite-A100>, success

I can confirm that this was delivered, I received it.

smtp, dated Oct 1 and smtp.1, dated Oct 2, are zero bytes

no file smtp-failure

and from syslog.1 this excerpt at the relevant time:

Oct  3 18:02:11 web5 postfix/smtpd[23732]: connect from
apps-kam-2.gov.bc.ca[142.34.224.137] Oct  3 18:02:11 web5
postfix/smtpd[23732]: C21AE8ED2DF:
client=apps-kam-2.gov.bc.ca[142.34.224.137] Oct  3 18:02:11 web5
postfix/cleanup[4673]: C21AE8ED2DF:
message-id=<201810040102.w9412ABv006557 at apps-kam-2.gov.bc.ca> Oct  3
18:02:11 web5 postfix/qmgr[1546]: C21AE8ED2DF:
from=<DASALERT at gov.bc.ca>, size=1268, nrcpt=1 (queue active) Oct  3
18:02:12 web5 postfix/smtpd[23732]: disconnect from
apps-kam-2.gov.bc.ca[142.34.224.137] Oct  3 18:02:12 web5
postfix/local[4674]: C21AE8ED2DF:this point then deleted 
to=<kitimat-aqadvisories.ca at web5.bcenclave.ca>,
orig_to=<Kitimat at aqadvisories.ca>, relay=local, delay=0.92,
delays=0.2/0.01/0/0.71, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to
command: /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post kitimat) Oct  3 18:02:12
web5 postfix/qmgr[1546]: C21AE8ED2DF: removed

so to me this looks just like a normal delivery. I think it must be the
case that mailman handed off the delivery to postfix at this point then
deleted the message. But then why no actual delivery?

D





-- 
In modern fantasy (literary or governmental), killing people is the
usual solution to the so-called war between good and evil. My books are
not conceived in terms of such a war, and offer no simple answers to
simplistic questions.

----- Ursula Le Guin

From heller at deepsoft.com  Thu Oct  4 23:40:36 2018
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Thu,  4 Oct 2018 23:40:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sending Mail To List And Individual User
In-Reply-To: <9d886ea3-b46b-705f-1a88-881461e27e57@tundraware.com>
References: <9d886ea3-b46b-705f-1a88-881461e27e57@tundraware.com>
Message-ID: <20181005034036.8F2E126C23EC@sharky3.deepsoft.com>

At Wed, 3 Oct 2018 23:24:32 -0500 Tim Daneliuk <tundra at tundraware.com> wrote:

> 
> I have a list, foo at bar.com.   luser at splat.com is the administrator of that
> list and also a member of the list.   If someone sends a message to foo at bar.com
> luser gets a copy as expected.  However, if someone send mail with both
> foo at bar.com and luser at splat.com as recipients, only the direct message for
> luser shows up.  luser's copy of the list message never does.
> 
> How do I change this so luser gets both the copy directed to him as well
> as the mailing list message?

This is a user option setting, "send a copy to yourself" (something like 
that).  Note: if luser is actually @gmail.com, *gmail* might get all clever 
and not deliver both copies -- that would be a gmail "feature".

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller at deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                                                                                                               

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct  5 01:18:13 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 22:18:13 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] debugging help - logs show mailman post
 executed but no mail
In-Reply-To: <20181004202025.5bd4595a@user-Satellite-A100>
References: <20181004170352.782111f3@user-Satellite-A100>
 <63693b63-af84-7efd-1d8e-affdd0f405e3@msapiro.net>
 <20181004202025.5bd4595a@user-Satellite-A100>
Message-ID: <2322ac8c-8d8c-8e38-83a8-6e88b44199ff@msapiro.net>

On 10/04/2018 08:20 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
> 
> and from syslog.1 this excerpt at the relevant time:
> 
> Oct  3 18:02:11 web5 postfix/smtpd[23732]: connect from
> apps-kam-2.gov.bc.ca[142.34.224.137] Oct  3 18:02:11 web5
> postfix/smtpd[23732]: C21AE8ED2DF:
> client=apps-kam-2.gov.bc.ca[142.34.224.137] Oct  3 18:02:11 web5
> postfix/cleanup[4673]: C21AE8ED2DF:
> message-id=<201810040102.w9412ABv006557 at apps-kam-2.gov.bc.ca> Oct  3
> 18:02:11 web5 postfix/qmgr[1546]: C21AE8ED2DF:
> from=<DASALERT at gov.bc.ca>, size=1268, nrcpt=1 (queue active) Oct  3
> 18:02:12 web5 postfix/smtpd[23732]: disconnect from
> apps-kam-2.gov.bc.ca[142.34.224.137] Oct  3 18:02:12 web5
> postfix/local[4674]: C21AE8ED2DF:this point then deleted 
> to=<kitimat-aqadvisories.ca at web5.bcenclave.ca>,
> orig_to=<Kitimat at aqadvisories.ca>, relay=local, delay=0.92,
> delays=0.2/0.01/0/0.71, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to
> command: /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post kitimat) Oct  3 18:02:12
> web5 postfix/qmgr[1546]: C21AE8ED2DF: removed
> 
> so to me this looks just like a normal delivery. I think it must be the
> case that mailman handed off the delivery to postfix at this point then
> deleted the message. But then why no actual delivery?


Those entries are about Postfix receiving the mail for
Kitimat at aqadvisories.ca and delivering it via pipe to
'/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post kitimat' which is passing it to
Mailman for posting to the kitimat list. Presumably the 'mailman'
wrapper received it and queued it.

I don't know where Mailman's queues are in your installation, but based
on logs being in /var/log/mailman, I'm guessing this is RedHat/CentOS
and queues are in /var/spool/mailman. In particular, I think you'll find
the message in /var/spool/mailman/in/*.pck because IncomingRunner is not
running and processing it's queue. Maybe Mailman is not running at all.

See /var/log/mailman/qrunner and points 2.2 and 6.2 at
<https://wiki.list.org/x/4030723>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dap1 at bellsouth.net  Fri Oct  5 14:23:59 2018
From: dap1 at bellsouth.net (Dennis Putnam)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 14:23:59 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ban Any AOL Users
Message-ID: <0d662c43-c5ea-02c1-2b36-e11cf49e9e73@bellsouth.net>

I am not much on regexp but I want to prevent any AOL user from
subscribing. The examples in the FAQ are all overly complex for what I
want to do. Can someone show me the syntax to ban all AOL addresses? TIA.

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From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct  5 14:40:39 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 11:40:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ban Any AOL Users
In-Reply-To: <0d662c43-c5ea-02c1-2b36-e11cf49e9e73@bellsouth.net>
References: <0d662c43-c5ea-02c1-2b36-e11cf49e9e73@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <52e8bcc9-c102-d442-28a5-a26bfa647829@msapiro.net>

On 10/05/2018 11:23 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> I am not much on regexp but I want to prevent any AOL user from
> subscribing. The examples in the FAQ are all overly complex for what I
> want to do. Can someone show me the syntax to ban all AOL addresses? TIA.


There are lots of regexps that will work, but

^.*[@.]aol\.com$

will ban any address that ends with '@aol.com' or '.aol.com', i.e. any
address in the aol.com domain or a sub-domain thereof.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From heller at deepsoft.com  Fri Oct  5 15:35:26 2018
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Fri,  5 Oct 2018 15:35:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ban Any AOL Users
In-Reply-To: <0d662c43-c5ea-02c1-2b36-e11cf49e9e73@bellsouth.net>
References: <0d662c43-c5ea-02c1-2b36-e11cf49e9e73@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <20181005193526.ABD8826C23ED@sharky3.deepsoft.com>

At Fri, 5 Oct 2018 14:23:59 -0400 Dennis Putnam <dap1 at bellsouth.net> wrote:

> 
> 
> From: Dennis Putnam <dap1 at bellsouth.net>
> To: Mailman Users <mailman-users at python.org>
> Message-ID: <0d662c43-c5ea-02c1-2b36-e11cf49e9e73 at bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Ban Any AOL Users
> 
> Content-Language: en-US
> 
> I am not much on regexp but I want to prevent any AOL user from
> subscribing. The examples in the FAQ are all overly complex for what I
> want to do. Can someone show me the syntax to ban all AOL addresses? TIA.

AOL was bought out by Yahoo and Yahoo merged (?) with Verizon. (Also, AOL way
back when bought out netscape.) Right now, Yahoo handles @aol.com,
@netscape.net, @yahoo.com, and @verizon.net. So if you want to avoid AOL DMARC
issues, you really want to avoid Yahoo DMARC issues, so you need to ban 
@aol.com, @netscape.net, @yahoo.com, and @verizon.net (at least).

> 
> Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32)
> 
> iEYEARECAAYFAlu3rEAACgkQ/fiWYqZ2tVTh1QCg77DpcznMqCmtqr0hCnuRdCqI
> KF0AoMRc5TgYucHs3+T6Itg2l6IK3RRg
> =mGT6
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/heller%40deepsoft.com
> 
>         

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller at deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                                                    

From dap1 at bellsouth.net  Fri Oct  5 15:45:13 2018
From: dap1 at bellsouth.net (Dennis Putnam)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:45:13 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ban Any AOL Users
In-Reply-To: <20181005193526.ABD8826C23ED@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
References: <0d662c43-c5ea-02c1-2b36-e11cf49e9e73@bellsouth.net>
 <20181005193526.ABD8826C23ED@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
Message-ID: <36ce2e08-daa8-db0c-7f85-c8a3e2e85dc3@bellsouth.net>

On 10/5/2018 3:35 PM, Robert Heller wrote:
> At Fri, 5 Oct 2018 14:23:59 -0400 Dennis Putnam <dap1 at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> From: Dennis Putnam <dap1 at bellsouth.net>
>> To: Mailman Users <mailman-users at python.org>
>> Message-ID: <0d662c43-c5ea-02c1-2b36-e11cf49e9e73 at bellsouth.net>
>> Subject: Ban Any AOL Users
>>
>> Content-Language: en-US
>>
>> I am not much on regexp but I want to prevent any AOL user from
>> subscribing. The examples in the FAQ are all overly complex for what I
>> want to do. Can someone show me the syntax to ban all AOL addresses? TIA.
> AOL was bought out by Yahoo and Yahoo merged (?) with Verizon. (Also, AOL way
> back when bought out netscape.) Right now, Yahoo handles @aol.com,
> @netscape.net, @yahoo.com, and @verizon.net. So if you want to avoid AOL DMARC
> issues, you really want to avoid Yahoo DMARC issues, so you need to ban 
> @aol.com, @netscape.net, @yahoo.com, and @verizon.net (at least).
Thanks for the reply. I am aware of all that but I have a totally
different reason for wanting to ban just the aol.com domain. In any case
you forgot to include the regexp I asked about.

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From dap1 at bellsouth.net  Fri Oct  5 15:46:08 2018
From: dap1 at bellsouth.net (Dennis Putnam)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:46:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ban Any AOL Users
In-Reply-To: <52e8bcc9-c102-d442-28a5-a26bfa647829@msapiro.net>
References: <0d662c43-c5ea-02c1-2b36-e11cf49e9e73@bellsouth.net>
 <52e8bcc9-c102-d442-28a5-a26bfa647829@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <5c7073a8-6d98-782b-b14e-50f8aae12de8@bellsouth.net>

On 10/5/2018 2:40 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/05/2018 11:23 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> I am not much on regexp but I want to prevent any AOL user from
>> subscribing. The examples in the FAQ are all overly complex for what I
>> want to do. Can someone show me the syntax to ban all AOL addresses? TIA.
>
> There are lots of regexps that will work, but
>
> ^.*[@.]aol\.com$
>
> will ban any address that ends with '@aol.com' or '.aol.com', i.e. any
> address in the aol.com domain or a sub-domain thereof.
>
>
Hi Mark,

Thanks. That is what I needed.

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From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Fri Oct  5 16:12:12 2018
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 16:12:12 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ban Any AOL Users
In-Reply-To: <20181005193526.ABD8826C23ED@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
References: <0d662c43-c5ea-02c1-2b36-e11cf49e9e73@bellsouth.net>
 <20181005193526.ABD8826C23ED@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
Message-ID: <2d601e1d-db2c-d9c4-8442-70ec54b2ff66@Damon-Family.org>

On 10/5/18 3:35 PM, Robert Heller wrote:
> AOL was bought out by Yahoo and Yahoo merged (?) with Verizon. (Also, AOL way
> back when bought out netscape.) Right now, Yahoo handles @aol.com,
> @netscape.net, @yahoo.com, and @verizon.net. So if you want to avoid AOL DMARC
> issues, you really want to avoid Yahoo DMARC issues, so you need to ban 
> @aol.com, @netscape.net, @yahoo.com, and @verizon.net (at least).
>
One point of information, as far as I have seen, even though verizon
email is handled by Yahoo, they don't seem to have migrated the DMARC
issue to that domain.? Not all domains managed by Yahoo have a DMARC
setting of reject, I imagine only those that have had the data leak that
prompted the issue in the first place.

Richard Damon


From heller at deepsoft.com  Fri Oct  5 20:03:09 2018
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Fri,  5 Oct 2018 20:03:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ban Any AOL Users
In-Reply-To: <36ce2e08-daa8-db0c-7f85-c8a3e2e85dc3@bellsouth.net>
References: <0d662c43-c5ea-02c1-2b36-e11cf49e9e73@bellsouth.net> 
 <20181005193526.ABD8826C23ED@sharky3.deepsoft.com> 
 <36ce2e08-daa8-db0c-7f85-c8a3e2e85dc3@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <20181006000309.C42FA26C23ED@sharky3.deepsoft.com>

At Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:45:13 -0400 Dennis Putnam <dap1 at bellsouth.net> wrote:

> 
> 
> From: Dennis Putnam <dap1 at bellsouth.net>
> To: Mailman Users <mailman-users at python.org>
> Message-ID: <36ce2e08-daa8-db0c-7f85-c8a3e2e85dc3 at bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Ban Any AOL Users
> References: <0d662c43-c5ea-02c1-2b36-e11cf49e9e73 at bellsouth.net>  <20181005193526.ABD8826C23ED at sharky3.deepsoft.com>
> In-Reply-To: <20181005193526.ABD8826C23ED at sharky3.deepsoft.com>
> 
> Content-Language: en-US
> 
> On 10/5/2018 3:35 PM, Robert Heller wrote:
> > At Fri, 5 Oct 2018 14:23:59 -0400 Dennis Putnam <dap1 at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> From: Dennis Putnam <dap1 at bellsouth.net>
> >> To: Mailman Users <mailman-users at python.org>
> >> Message-ID: <0d662c43-c5ea-02c1-2b36-e11cf49e9e73 at bellsouth.net>
> >> Subject: Ban Any AOL Users
> >>
> >> Content-Language: en-US
> >>
> >> I am not much on regexp but I want to prevent any AOL user from
> >> subscribing. The examples in the FAQ are all overly complex for what I
> >> want to do. Can someone show me the syntax to ban all AOL addresses? TIA.
> > AOL was bought out by Yahoo and Yahoo merged (?) with Verizon. (Also, AOL way
> > back when bought out netscape.) Right now, Yahoo handles @aol.com,
> > @netscape.net, @yahoo.com, and @verizon.net. So if you want to avoid AOL DMARC
> > issues, you really want to avoid Yahoo DMARC issues, so you need to ban 
> > @aol.com, @netscape.net, @yahoo.com, and @verizon.net (at least).
> Thanks for the reply. I am aware of all that but I have a totally
> different reason for wanting to ban just the aol.com domain. In any case
> you forgot to include the regexp I asked about.

I figured someone else would.

> 
> Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32)
> 
> iEYEARECAAYFAlu3v0oACgkQ/fiWYqZ2tVSXvwCgtv153HC5i7eqwIHqGGb4LU8b
> LWcAoMysWQrNJHvGzLQPPQkgrx2dNbXg
> =hJzZ
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/heller%40deepsoft.com
> 
>                                                        

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller at deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                                                                                       

From james at confitdesign.com  Fri Oct  5 13:03:15 2018
From: james at confitdesign.com (James Kelleway)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 12:03:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Migration
Message-ID: <CAFfNFdmOiv3GW2SSNhEWL=w+bZtgA32Fv_M+9nDNXd=N_wf5Lg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

We have a client who uses mailman on a plesk server. They are in the
process of moving to a cpanel server but we have no experience with mailman
and were wondering if anyone experienced devs could give us a quote to
perform the migration for us? Please feel free to reach out with any
questions.

Thanks,

James

-- 
James Kelleway
Confit
Web Design & Development
http://confitdesign.com

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Oct  6 15:17:17 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 12:17:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Migration
In-Reply-To: <CAFfNFdmOiv3GW2SSNhEWL=w+bZtgA32Fv_M+9nDNXd=N_wf5Lg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFfNFdmOiv3GW2SSNhEWL=w+bZtgA32Fv_M+9nDNXd=N_wf5Lg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <85d70a89-c2cd-1412-02e8-22921df15d6d@msapiro.net>

On 10/05/2018 10:03 AM, James Kelleway wrote:
> 
> We have a client who uses mailman on a plesk server. They are in the
> process of moving to a cpanel server but we have no experience with mailman
> and were wondering if anyone experienced devs could give us a quote to
> perform the migration for us? Please feel free to reach out with any
> questions.


The process of moving Mailman 2.1 archives and lists from one server to
another is usually simple (see <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030682>), but
both cPanel and Plesk have their own modified Mailman instances which
are non-standard and differ from each other which might greatly
complicate this. See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030644> and
<https://wiki.list.org/x/4030641>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From weif at weif.net  Sat Oct  6 16:22:18 2018
From: weif at weif.net (Keith Seyffarth)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2018 14:22:18 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Migration
In-Reply-To: <CAFfNFdmOiv3GW2SSNhEWL=w+bZtgA32Fv_M+9nDNXd=N_wf5Lg@mail.gmail.com> (message
 from James Kelleway on Fri, 5 Oct 2018 12:03:15 -0500)
Message-ID: <84va6ekepx.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>


> We have a client who uses mailman on a plesk server. They are in the
> process of moving to a cpanel server but we have no experience with mailman
> and were wondering if anyone experienced devs could give us a quote to
> perform the migration for us? Please feel free to reach out with any
> questions.

First check to see what options you have from within cPanel, apparently
some cPanel implementations come with a migration or transfer tool which
is already set up to transfer sites from PLESK to cPanel. I haven't gone
this direction, but I have transferred from cPanel to PLESK or from older
versions of PLESK to newer versions of PLESK with the PLESK Migrate
tool...

If you don't have that option, you may want to check out
https://forums.cpanel.net/threads/migrating-account-from-plesk-to-cpanel.303772/
which appears to have information on a free transfer service...

Keith

-- 
----
from my mac to yours...

Keith Seyffarth
mailto:weif at weif.net
http://www.weif.net/ - Home of the First Tank Guide!
http://www.rpgcalendar.net/ - the Montana Role-Playing Calendar
----
http://www.miscon.org/ - Montana's Longest Running Science Fiction Convention

From joe.mezzanini at gmail.com  Sat Oct  6 14:32:18 2018
From: joe.mezzanini at gmail.com (Joe Mezzanini)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 14:32:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Footer shows as a txt attachment instead of
 appended in body
Message-ID: <CAJg5LRNHy2P+z9rOGVqr5-thGykUUVYAqe59xniM6u9At9f1QQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have a mailman discussion group with some text
in the "Footer added to mail sent to regular list members "

However, some mail software does not show that added text.

Specifically, Outlook has it as a file attachment AT000001.txt instead of
appending it to the body of the email.

Anyone know how to ?fix? this?  thanks

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Oct  7 12:26:24 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 09:26:24 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Footer shows as a txt attachment instead of
 appended in body
In-Reply-To: <CAJg5LRNHy2P+z9rOGVqr5-thGykUUVYAqe59xniM6u9At9f1QQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJg5LRNHy2P+z9rOGVqr5-thGykUUVYAqe59xniM6u9At9f1QQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62bdaeb7-f078-3ad9-4df8-5cecae4cc966@msapiro.net>

On 10/06/2018 11:32 AM, Joe Mezzanini wrote:
> 
> Specifically, Outlook has it as a file attachment AT000001.txt instead of
> appending it to the body of the email.
> 
> Anyone know how to ?fix? this?  thanks


See the FAQ at <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030707>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fmouse at fmp.com  Sun Oct  7 12:28:28 2018
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2018 11:28:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists
Message-ID: <1538929708.111075.120.camel@fmp.com>

FMP's mail and web server is a virtual server at Linode. We run half a
dozen Mailman lists or so, all opt-in lists for a couple of non-profits 
and small business customers, all of which have been running
successfully for many months. Today I got a large number of
unsubscription notices from one of our lists, all of them for addresses
at hotmail.com, msn.com and outlook.com. They contain the following
text:

?hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com [104.47.44.33]:
?>>> MAIL FROM:<aftm-bounces+clarkson-66=hotmail.com at lists.fmp.com>
BODY=8BITMIME SIZE=5492
?<<< 550 5.7.1 Unfortunately, messages from [198.58.125.221] weren't
sent. Please contact your Internet service provider since part of their
network is on our block list (S3140). You can also refer your provider
to http://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx#errors.
[SN1NAM04FT034.eop-NAM04.prod.protection.outlook.com]

Has anyone seen similar problems recently with Microsoft mail customers
who are Mailman list subscribers?

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The first casualty when
FMP Computer Services |         war comes is truth."
512-259-1190          |            
http://www.fmp.com    |     -- Hiram W Johnson



From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Oct  7 13:12:54 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 10:12:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists
In-Reply-To: <1538929708.111075.120.camel@fmp.com>
References: <1538929708.111075.120.camel@fmp.com>
Message-ID: <fa6a9827-68c0-e347-8171-55a759294711@msapiro.net>

On 10/07/2018 09:28 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> FMP's mail and web server is a virtual server at Linode. We run half a
> dozen Mailman lists or so, all opt-in lists for a couple of non-profits 
> and small business customers, all of which have been running
> successfully for many months. Today I got a large number of
> unsubscription notices from one of our lists, all of them for addresses
> at hotmail.com, msn.com and outlook.com. They contain the following
> text:
> 
> ?hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com [104.47.44.33]:
> ?>>> MAIL FROM:<aftm-bounces+clarkson-66=hotmail.com at lists.fmp.com>
> BODY=8BITMIME SIZE=5492
> ?<<< 550 5.7.1 Unfortunately, messages from [198.58.125.221] weren't
> sent. Please contact your Internet service provider since part of their
> network is on our block list (S3140). You can also refer your provider
> to http://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx#errors.
> [SN1NAM04FT034.eop-NAM04.prod.protection.outlook.com]
> 
> Has anyone seen similar problems recently with Microsoft mail customers
> who are Mailman list subscribers?


I haven't seen Microsoft IP block bounces on any of the lists I'm
involved with in some time, but I used to have other issues with them.

You need to go to <http://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx>. In
the second paragraph under "Sender services, tools, and issue
submission" you will see "click here to contact support" which goes to
<http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkID=614866>. Submit that form and be
prepared for an iterative process in which you feel you are dealing with
a robot, but you may ultimately get this fixed.

Also, signing up for "Smart Network Data Services"
<https://postmaster.live.com/snds> and maybe other things from
<https://sendersupport.olc.protection.outlook.com/pm/services.aspx> can
help you keep up with what they think of you.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jaybird at bluegrasspals.com  Sun Oct  7 13:00:58 2018
From: jaybird at bluegrasspals.com (Jayson Smith)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 13:00:58 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists
In-Reply-To: <1538929708.111075.120.camel@fmp.com>
References: <1538929708.111075.120.camel@fmp.com>
Message-ID: <a4550bd1-b5bd-3877-58a3-3513683f10b3@bluegrasspals.com>

Hi,

Unfortunately, yes, I have seen this behavior from Microsoft. I have no 
idea what triggers it, but my Linode IP has been blocklisted twice, once 
a bit over three years ago, and another time less than two weeks ago.

If you haven't already, try signing up for their Smart Network Data 
Service at https://postmaster.live.com/snds. On the FAQ page there you 
will find a link to submit a delivery support ticket, you can request 
your IP be removed from the blocklist. I have no idea how long your IP 
will stay on their blocklist if you don't request removal. Before 
requesting removal you should probably use some online checkers to 
insure you're not on any other blacklists, check your IP at 
senderscore.org, etc.

The last incident inspired me to move a high-traffic list I run from 
Mailman to Groups.IO.

Hope this helps,

Jayson

On 10/7/2018 12:28 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> FMP's mail and web server is a virtual server at Linode. We run half a
> dozen Mailman lists or so, all opt-in lists for a couple of non-profits
> and small business customers, all of which have been running
> successfully for many months. Today I got a large number of
> unsubscription notices from one of our lists, all of them for addresses
> at hotmail.com, msn.com and outlook.com. They contain the following
> text:
>
>  ?hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com [104.47.44.33]:
>  ?>>> MAIL FROM:<aftm-bounces+clarkson-66=hotmail.com at lists.fmp.com>
> BODY=8BITMIME SIZE=5492
>  ?<<< 550 5.7.1 Unfortunately, messages from [198.58.125.221] weren't
> sent. Please contact your Internet service provider since part of their
> network is on our block list (S3140). You can also refer your provider
> to http://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx#errors.
> [SN1NAM04FT034.eop-NAM04.prod.protection.outlook.com]
>
> Has anyone seen similar problems recently with Microsoft mail customers
> who are Mailman list subscribers?
>


From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Sun Oct  7 13:36:23 2018
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 02:36:23 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists
In-Reply-To: <1538929708.111075.120.camel@fmp.com>
References: <1538929708.111075.120.camel@fmp.com>
Message-ID: <23482.17431.345749.27438@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Lindsay Haisley writes:

 > ?hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com [104.47.44.33]:
 > ?>>> MAIL FROM:<aftm-bounces+clarkson-66=hotmail.com at lists.fmp.com>
 > BODY=8BITMIME SIZE=5492
 > ?<<< 550 5.7.1 Unfortunately, messages from [198.58.125.221] weren't
 > sent. Please contact your Internet service provider since part of their
 > network is on our block list (S3140). You can also refer your provider
 > to http://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx#errors.
 > [SN1NAM04FT034.eop-NAM04.prod.protection.outlook.com]
 > 
 > Has anyone seen similar problems recently with Microsoft mail customers
 > who are Mailman list subscribers?

Yes, I've seen a similar problem.  I was actually the source for a bit
of spam (backscatter from attempted subscriptions, fortunately those
lists don't need to be open subscription so I just blocked them all
with action DISCARD).

However, in my case it was specific to my IP, I was able to go to
their website and enter my IP into a "I won't do it again" page, and
after about 48 hours, mail was flowing again.  YMMV.

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Sun Oct  7 13:40:21 2018
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 02:40:21 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Ban Any AOL Users
In-Reply-To: <2d601e1d-db2c-d9c4-8442-70ec54b2ff66@Damon-Family.org>
References: <0d662c43-c5ea-02c1-2b36-e11cf49e9e73@bellsouth.net>
 <20181005193526.ABD8826C23ED@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
 <2d601e1d-db2c-d9c4-8442-70ec54b2ff66@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <23482.17669.776319.621761@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Richard Damon writes:

 > Not all domains managed by Yahoo have a DMARC setting of reject,

True, I believe (although AIUI yahoo.co.* except for yahoo.co.jp have
p=reject, jp is franchised, not managed by Yahoo!), but those not
branded "Yahoo!" have p=whatever-the-domain-wants.

 > I imagine only those that have had the data leak that prompted the
 > issue in the first place.

No, I'm pretty sure this is an issue of brand management.  Although
AFAIK only yahoo.com leaked, Yahoo! eventually imposed p=reject on all
yahoo.co.* domains as well (except in Japan, where AIUI Yahoo! Japan
has licensed the tech and the brand, but manages itself).  I imagine
Yahoo! probably manages a large number of transactional domains where
p=reject is appropriate, as well as several domains where it's a
massive PIT Internet's A.

Steve


From martin at bittop.de  Sun Oct  7 13:42:37 2018
From: martin at bittop.de (=?utf-8?Q?Martin_N=C3=BCnning?=)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 19:42:37 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Footer shows as a txt attachment instead of
 appended in body
In-Reply-To: <CAJg5LRNHy2P+z9rOGVqr5-thGykUUVYAqe59xniM6u9At9f1QQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJg5LRNHy2P+z9rOGVqr5-thGykUUVYAqe59xniM6u9At9f1QQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86933CC0-A5B1-4533-B5FA-1FC457EE1381@bittop.de>

Hi Joe, 

The only thing that worked for me was the 
MIMEDefang Methode mentioned in the FAQ ... but it is not really a quick fix... but my costumer insisted on Outlook showing the Mails ?nice?
But you would need full Root Access to the Mail Server and the postfix ( or whatever mailsystem ) to implement MIMEDefang. 
Just as a List Admin I would say no chance

Regards

Martin
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Am 06.10.2018 um 20:32 schrieb Joe Mezzanini <joe.mezzanini at gmail.com>:
> 
> I have a mailman discussion group with some text
> in the "Footer added to mail sent to regular list members "
> 
> However, some mail software does not show that added text.
> 
> Specifically, Outlook has it as a file attachment AT000001.txt instead of
> appending it to the body of the email.
> 
> Anyone know how to ?fix? this?  thanks
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/martin%40bittop.de


From heller at deepsoft.com  Sun Oct  7 14:04:50 2018
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Sun,  7 Oct 2018 14:04:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Footer shows as a txt attachment instead of
 appended in body
In-Reply-To: <CAJg5LRNHy2P+z9rOGVqr5-thGykUUVYAqe59xniM6u9At9f1QQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJg5LRNHy2P+z9rOGVqr5-thGykUUVYAqe59xniM6u9At9f1QQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20181007180451.2D15026C23EC@sharky3.deepsoft.com>

At Sat, 6 Oct 2018 14:32:18 -0400 Joe Mezzanini <joe.mezzanini at gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> I have a mailman discussion group with some text
> in the "Footer added to mail sent to regular list members "
> 
> However, some mail software does not show that added text.
> 
> Specifically, Outlook has it as a file attachment AT000001.txt instead of
> appending it to the body of the email.
> 
> Anyone know how to ???fix??? this?  thanks

This usually happens when the messages are HTML *and* you allow HTML messages. 
Telling Mailman not to allow HTML messages and/or asking Mailman to convert 
HTML to plain text and/or telling Mailman to use the text/plain version of 
multipart/alternate messages.

> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/heller%40deepsoft.com
> 
>                  

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller at deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                                                                            

From johnl at taugh.com  Sun Oct  7 14:25:02 2018
From: johnl at taugh.com (John Levine)
Date: 7 Oct 2018 14:25:02 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists
In-Reply-To: <a4550bd1-b5bd-3877-58a3-3513683f10b3@bluegrasspals.com>
Message-ID: <20181007182503.648852006B5E30@ary.local>

In article <a4550bd1-b5bd-3877-58a3-3513683f10b3 at bluegrasspals.com> you write:
>Hi,
>
>Unfortunately, yes, I have seen this behavior from Microsoft. I have no 
>idea what triggers it, but my Linode IP has been blocklisted twice, once 
>a bit over three years ago, and another time less than two weeks ago.

It may well not be you.  Linode does a poor job of keeping their
network clean of spammers and other miscreants.  They always kick them
off when you report it, but by then it's too late, so their whole
network has an iffy reputation.

Linode's hosting is nothing special, either in features or price.  You
might consider moving your system somewhere else that manages their
network better.


From rbraver at ohww.norman.ok.us  Sun Oct  7 13:19:11 2018
From: rbraver at ohww.norman.ok.us (Robert Braver)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 12:19:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists
In-Reply-To: <1538929708.111075.120.camel@fmp.com>
References: <1538929708.111075.120.camel@fmp.com>
Message-ID: <1609129993.20181007121911@ohww.norman.ok.us>

On Sunday, October 7, 2018, 11:28:28 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

LH> FMP's mail and web server is a virtual server at Linode. We run half a
LH> dozen Mailman lists or so, all opt-in lists for a couple of non-profits
LH> and small business customers, all of which have been running
LH> successfully for many months. Today I got a large number of
LH> unsubscription notices from one of our lists, all of them for addresses
LH> at hotmail.com, msn.com and outlook.com. They contain the following
LH> text:

[...]

LH> Has anyone seen similar problems recently with Microsoft mail customers
LH> who are Mailman list subscribers?

No problems here with the two lists I run, although I'm not a stranger
to problems with blocklists or list users inadvertently reporting list
messages as spam.

This is almost certainly not going to have anything to do with
Mailman, but more to do with the reputation of the IP address of your
virtual server at Linode or IP netblock ("neighborhood") you are
sending from.

If you Google around for the error you reported, you should be able to
find a form to request de-listing. Perhaps they will while-list your
server's IP address even if they are not thrilled with the overall
experience with emails from Linode address space.



-- 
Best regards,
 Robert Braver
 rbraver at ohww.norman.ok.us


From fmouse at fmp.com  Sun Oct  7 15:54:38 2018
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2018 14:54:38 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists
In-Reply-To: <1609129993.20181007121911@ohww.norman.ok.us>
References: <1538929708.111075.120.camel@fmp.com>
 <1609129993.20181007121911@ohww.norman.ok.us>
Message-ID: <1538942078.111075.143.camel@fmp.com>

On Sun, 2018-10-07 at 12:19 -0500, Robert Braver wrote:
> This is almost certainly not going to have anything to do with
> Mailman, but more to do with the reputation of the IP address of your
> virtual server at Linode or IP netblock ("neighborhood") you are
> sending from.

Understood. I had thought that perhaps others on this list had had
similar problems and I could get a bit of a handle on the lay of the
land with MS from others. This is indeed the case.

> If you Google around for the error you reported, you should be able to
> find a form to request de-listing. Perhaps they will while-list your
> server's IP address even if they are not thrilled with the overall
> experience with emails from Linode address space.

I got good responses here from Mark Sapiro and Stephen Turnbull with
concrete suggestions on resolving the problem. Unfortunately, Microsoft
has informed me that my IP address "does not qualify for mitigation",
so I've asked for more details.

It looks as if I may need to unload all my Mailman list hosting clients
and send them to a commercial service such as MailChimp.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The first casualty when
FMP Computer Services |         war comes is truth."
512-259-1190          |            
http://www.fmp.com    |     -- Hiram W Johnson



From fmouse at fmp.com  Sun Oct  7 16:13:49 2018
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2018 15:13:49 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists
In-Reply-To: <20181007182503.648852006B5E30@ary.local>
References: <20181007182503.648852006B5E30@ary.local>
Message-ID: <1538943229.111075.144.camel@fmp.com>

On Sun, 2018-10-07 at 14:25 -0400, John Levine wrote:
> In article <a4550bd1-b5bd-3877-58a3-3513683f10b3 at bluegrasspals.com> you write:
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Unfortunately, yes, I have seen this behavior from Microsoft. I have no?
> > idea what triggers it, but my Linode IP has been blocklisted twice, once?
> > a bit over three years ago, and another time less than two weeks ago.
> It may well not be you.??Linode does a poor job of keeping their
> network clean of spammers and other miscreants.

I've had a _few_ spam spews here which came from Linode IPs, but very
few. Other IP blocks in Brazil, Poland, Italy, DigitalOcean, etc.
harbor many more.

> They always kick them
> off when you report it, but by then it's too late, so their whole
> network has an iffy reputation.

Be that as it may, the support folks at Linode are exceptional, and go
the extra mile for me on any problems or questions I may have, whether
it's their issues are someone else's.?

> Linode's hosting is nothing special, either in features or price.??You
> might consider moving your system somewhere else that manages their
> network better.

I've got a lot of sweat equity into programming against their DNS API,
and have an IPv6 /56 subnet from them which provides v6 addresses to
our SOHO LAN. I have too much on my plate to make a major move,
including 80 or so domain names on their DNS.

The Linode support folks went to bat on this particular issue and filed
a delisting request with Microsoft on my address, or the /24 containing
it. I've done the same from my end.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The first casualty when
FMP Computer Services |         war comes is truth."
512-259-1190          |            
http://www.fmp.com    |     -- Hiram W Johnson



From mike at writestarr.com  Sun Oct  7 16:25:45 2018
From: mike at writestarr.com (Mike Starr)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 15:25:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists
In-Reply-To: <20181007182503.648852006B5E30@ary.local>
References: <20181007182503.648852006B5E30@ary.local>
Message-ID: <0cc8590a-6512-0df5-0c0d-f78d09fab3f3@writestarr.com>

On 10/7/2018 1:25 PM, John Levine wrote:
> It may well not be you.  Linode does a poor job of keeping their
> network clean of spammers and other miscreants.  They always kick them
> off when you report it, but by then it's too late, so their whole
> network has an iffy reputation.
>
> Linode's hosting is nothing special, either in features or price.  You
> might consider moving your system somewhere else that manages their
> network better.
And there's the problem... you can switch hosts but not know if they 
manager their network better until you know they don't because your 
email gets blocked. Like they say in the pool hall, poke and hope. 
Unless there's some way to shop for a hosting company on the basis of 
their "network reputation." As far as hosting companies go, like the 
rotisserie ad said, I just want to set it and forget it.



From james at confitdesign.com  Sun Oct  7 22:07:39 2018
From: james at confitdesign.com (James Kelleway)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 21:07:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Migration
In-Reply-To: <84va6ekepx.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
References: <CAFfNFdmOiv3GW2SSNhEWL=w+bZtgA32Fv_M+9nDNXd=N_wf5Lg@mail.gmail.com>
 <84va6ekepx.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
Message-ID: <CAFfNFd=AXxVkKM2uozQ77TnTHBv09RSNCg9Ud_Cg6bHpzOdahQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks all for the great advice!

On Sat, Oct 6, 2018 at 3:22 PM Keith Seyffarth <weif at weif.net> wrote:

>
> > We have a client who uses mailman on a plesk server. They are in the
> > process of moving to a cpanel server but we have no experience with
> mailman
> > and were wondering if anyone experienced devs could give us a quote to
> > perform the migration for us? Please feel free to reach out with any
> > questions.
>
> First check to see what options you have from within cPanel, apparently
> some cPanel implementations come with a migration or transfer tool which
> is already set up to transfer sites from PLESK to cPanel. I haven't gone
> this direction, but I have transferred from cPanel to PLESK or from older
> versions of PLESK to newer versions of PLESK with the PLESK Migrate
> tool...
>
> If you don't have that option, you may want to check out
>
> https://forums.cpanel.net/threads/migrating-account-from-plesk-to-cpanel.303772/
> which appears to have information on a free transfer service...
>
> Keith
>
> --
> ----
> from my mac to yours...
>
> Keith Seyffarth
> mailto:weif at weif.net
> http://www.weif.net/ - Home of the First Tank Guide!
> http://www.rpgcalendar.net/ - the Montana Role-Playing Calendar
> ----
> http://www.miscon.org/ - Montana's Longest Running Science Fiction
> Convention
>


-- 
James Kelleway
Confit
Web Design & Development
http://confitdesign.com

From jaybird at bluegrasspals.com  Mon Oct  8 03:57:06 2018
From: jaybird at bluegrasspals.com (Jayson Smith)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 03:57:06 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists
In-Reply-To: <0cc8590a-6512-0df5-0c0d-f78d09fab3f3@writestarr.com>
References: <20181007182503.648852006B5E30@ary.local>
 <0cc8590a-6512-0df5-0c0d-f78d09fab3f3@writestarr.com>
Message-ID: <cc13df08-21b7-a0fc-c449-492ae53831f7@bluegrasspals.com>

Hi,

I've learned this lesson the hard way. Back in early 2011 I signed up 
with a company called Serverpronto where I could get my own dedicated 
server. Their terms of service were very clear on the fact that they 
have a zero-tolerance policy when it comes to spammers, and all the 
horrible things they would do to you if you even thought about getting 
any of their network on any Email blacklists. Well I signed up, moved 
lists over, and five days later I started getting bounces left and right 
because my IP was on blacklists. I assume it wasn't my specific IP but 
an IP range. I contacted support, and they did?absolutely nothing about 
it! They weren't willing to investigate, they weren't willing to contact 
the blacklists on my behalf since "they never respond," etc. I ended up 
leaving them and switching to Linode. They've since merged with another 
outfit I think, but unless they've straightened their act up big time, I 
wouldn't recommend them to anyone!

Just goes to show, the terms of service can be all "We hate spammers 
just as much as you do, and if we find out you're a spammer we'll do 
unspeakable things," but it might not mean a thing.

Jayson

On 10/7/2018 4:25 PM, Mike Starr wrote:
> On 10/7/2018 1:25 PM, John Levine wrote:
>> It may well not be you.? Linode does a poor job of keeping their
>> network clean of spammers and other miscreants.? They always kick them
>> off when you report it, but by then it's too late, so their whole
>> network has an iffy reputation.
>>
>> Linode's hosting is nothing special, either in features or price.? You
>> might consider moving your system somewhere else that manages their
>> network better.
> And there's the problem... you can switch hosts but not know if they 
> manager their network better until you know they don't because your 
> email gets blocked. Like they say in the pool hall, poke and hope. 
> Unless there's some way to shop for a hosting company on the basis of 
> their "network reputation." As far as hosting companies go, like the 
> rotisserie ad said, I just want to set it and forget it.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jaybird%40bluegrasspals.com
>
>


From bernie at fantasyfarm.com  Mon Oct  8 07:52:52 2018
From: bernie at fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2018 07:52:52 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicate pending requests
Message-ID: <5BBB4514.32298.26B05CAB@bernie.fantasyfarm.com>

Every morning I get two identical copies of the "moderator requests waiting".  It 
isn't a big deal but I'm wondering why.  I first thought it was sending one copy to 
the owner and one copy to the moderator [I had me in as both], so I removed me 
from moderator -- now there's no moderator and only the owner and still I get 
two copies.   Did I misconfigure something?

  /b\
            Bernie Cosell
       bernie at fantasyfarm.com
-- Too many people; too few sheep --
   




From fmouse at fmp.com  Mon Oct  8 12:01:13 2018
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2018 11:01:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists
In-Reply-To: <cc13df08-21b7-a0fc-c449-492ae53831f7@bluegrasspals.com>
References: <20181007182503.648852006B5E30@ary.local>
 <0cc8590a-6512-0df5-0c0d-f78d09fab3f3@writestarr.com>
 <cc13df08-21b7-a0fc-c449-492ae53831f7@bluegrasspals.com>
Message-ID: <1539014473.111075.217.camel@fmp.com>

On Mon, 2018-10-08 at 03:57 -0400, Jayson Smith wrote:
> I've learned this lesson the hard way. Back in early 2011 I signed up?
> with a company called Serverpronto where I could get my own dedicated?
> server. Their terms of service were very clear on the fact that they?
> have a zero-tolerance policy when it comes to spammers, and all the?
> horrible things they would do to you if you even thought about getting?
> any of their network on any Email blacklists. Well I signed up, moved?
> lists over, and five days later I started getting bounces left and right?
> because my IP was on blacklists. I assume it wasn't my specific IP but?
> an IP range. I contacted support, and they did?absolutely nothing about?
> it! They weren't willing to investigate, they weren't willing to contact?
> the blacklists on my behalf since "they never respond," etc. I ended up?
> leaving them and switching to Linode. They've since merged with another?
> outfit I think, but unless they've straightened their act up big time, I?
> wouldn't recommend them to anyone!

I've generally had good luck with Linode. Their tech folks are real
geniuses and technically their service really rock. Their tech support
staff is very responsive and helpful, well above and beyond what I
might expect. I run my own mail server, know and understand the basics
of email which I learned back in the 90s working for one of Austin's
first ISPs.

One of the things I offer for customers is hands-off customer-
configured redirection of email. If customer John Doe has a domain
mydomain.com he can set up redirection so that email to?
john at mydomain.com?redirects to, say, john.doe at gmail.com. This is a
feature of the Courier MTA which is _very_ useful, and is also
leveraged to redirect mail into Mailman mailing lists. Unfortunately,
if john at mydomain.com?gets harvested for spamming, then my server is
burdened with filtering out spam to this address, and a certain amount
gets through. I've written many of my own spam filtering routines,
DMARC mitigation, etc. (i.e. courier-to-mailman.py in Mailman's contrib
collection), but some slips through anyway, and it appears to come from
MY server, if one only looks at the topmost Received header. I've had
problems with public RBL blockages from time to time, and with Gmail,
but I try to stay on top of it and get these resolved as they come up.
Microsoft says they've "mitigated" this situation, but it'll take until
tomorrow night before my server may be fully able to send email to
addresses at hotmail.com, msn.com, outlook.com and live.com.

Meanwhile I have customers, including a county political party, for
whom email redirection is an absolutely vital on a daily basis to their
functioning and I'm going to have to tell them to take their business
elsewhere ASAP, and I may have to discontinue redirection as a service
offering. This is going to cost me a lot of good will and income.

> Just goes to show, the terms of service can be all "We hate spammers?
> just as much as you do, and if we find out you're a spammer we'll do?
> unspeakable things," but it might not mean a thing.

Yep. I am amazed that email, as implemented through RFC 822 and other
early protocols, still survives and hasn't gone the way of UseNet News,
UUCP Mail, Gopher and Archie. It's probably the most stressed service
on the Internet what with c.a. 90% of email being UCE, and there are so
many misbegotten attempts out there to deal with the problem in ways
that break email on the Internet, often violation of RFCs. It's a
tribute to the engineering genius of the internet pioneers who
developed the email protocols that it survives at all and hasn't been
replaced entirely with proprietary services such as Facebook Messenger.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The first casualty when
FMP Computer Services |         war comes is truth."
512-259-1190          |            
http://www.fmp.com    |     -- Hiram W Johnson



From jimpop at domainmail.org  Mon Oct  8 12:23:11 2018
From: jimpop at domainmail.org (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2018 12:23:11 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists
In-Reply-To: <1539014473.111075.217.camel@fmp.com>
References: <20181007182503.648852006B5E30@ary.local>
 <0cc8590a-6512-0df5-0c0d-f78d09fab3f3@writestarr.com>
 <cc13df08-21b7-a0fc-c449-492ae53831f7@bluegrasspals.com>
 <1539014473.111075.217.camel@fmp.com>
Message-ID: <1539015791.5289.1.camel@domainmail.org>

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Hash: SHA512

On Mon, 2018-10-08 at 11:01 -0500, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> 
> I've generally had good luck with Linode. Their tech folks are real
> geniuses and technically their service really rock. 

Next time you're on one of their nodes do this:

egrep "(MHz|model name)" /proc/cpuinfo

For less $$ you can get newer/faster hardware elsewhere (and some even
come with pure SSD RAID10 storage)  All I'm saying is that it pays to
shop around.

model name	: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1240 v6 @ 3.70GHz
cpu MHz		: 3695.998
model name	: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1240 v6 @ 3.70GHz
cpu MHz		: 3695.998


model name	: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1240 V2 @ 3.40GHz
cpu MHz		: 3400.022
model name	: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1240 V2 @ 3.40GHz
cpu MHz		: 3400.022


- -Jim P.
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From fmouse at fmp.com  Mon Oct  8 13:32:23 2018
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2018 12:32:23 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists
In-Reply-To: <1539015791.5289.1.camel@domainmail.org>
References: <20181007182503.648852006B5E30@ary.local>
 <0cc8590a-6512-0df5-0c0d-f78d09fab3f3@writestarr.com>
 <cc13df08-21b7-a0fc-c449-492ae53831f7@bluegrasspals.com>
 <1539014473.111075.217.camel@fmp.com>
 <1539015791.5289.1.camel@domainmail.org>
Message-ID: <1539019943.111075.233.camel@fmp.com>

On Mon, 2018-10-08 at 12:23 -0400, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users
wrote:
> On Mon, 2018-10-08 at 11:01 -0500, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > I've generally had good luck with Linode. Their tech folks are real
> > geniuses and technically their service really rock.?
> Next time you're on one of their nodes do this:
> 
> egrep "(MHz|model name)" /proc/cpuinfo
> 
> For less $$ you can get newer/faster hardware elsewhere (and some
> even
> come with pure SSD RAID10 storage)??All I'm saying is that it pays to
> shop around.
> 
> model name	: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1240 v6 @ 3.70GHz
> cpu MHz		: 3695.998
> model name	: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1240 v6 @ 3.70GHz
> cpu MHz		: 3695.998

My linode has a quad:

model name	: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2680 v2 @ 2.80GHz
cpu MHz		: 2800.000

Not as fast, but speed isn't everything, and the speed is quite
adequate for my small email and web hosting business. I _did_ shop
around, and when I settled on Linode back in 2014 it was recommended by
people in the IT business whom I trust. As I said, I've been quite
impressed with their technical skills and the quality of their support.

On top of that, I'm using their DNS services for probably 90 domain
names (with programming for several facilities in place which leverages
their DNS API), and have an IPv6 /56 assigned to me from them, routed
through a VPN to our SOHO LAN. On top of that, my wife and I are up
against some major medical issues which are occupying all of our
available time which I'm NOT spending on trying to keep FMP's
customers' mail service open to the full Internet. Switching virtual
server providers at this point is NOT an option. I'm 77, _should_ be
retired, and am stressed to the breaking point with dealing with all
the crap coming down the pike at us. Thanks for your comment, though.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The first casualty when
FMP Computer Services |         war comes is truth."
512-259-1190          |            
http://www.fmp.com    |     -- Hiram W Johnson



From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Oct  8 13:37:40 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 10:37:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicate pending requests
In-Reply-To: <5BBB4514.32298.26B05CAB@bernie.fantasyfarm.com>
References: <5BBB4514.32298.26B05CAB@bernie.fantasyfarm.com>
Message-ID: <28232dc9-c1f0-8057-528c-08ce7b74c33b@msapiro.net>

On 10/08/2018 04:52 AM, Bernie Cosell wrote:
> Every morning I get two identical copies of the "moderator requests waiting".  It 
> isn't a big deal but I'm wondering why.  I first thought it was sending one copy to 
> the owner and one copy to the moderator [I had me in as both], so I removed me 
> from moderator -- now there's no moderator and only the owner and still I get 
> two copies.   Did I misconfigure something?


Identical including all headers? If so, I don't know what the issue
would be, but it could be some filter rule in your MUA creating the
duplicate. Also, Mailman's smtp log and the MTA log may have clues. The
notice is sent first to the LIST-owner address, and then received by
Mailman and resent to the owner and moderator addresses.

If there are differences in headers, examine them for clues.

One likely possibility is you have both a system crontam and a Mailman
user crontab running Mailman's cron/checkdbs. It doesn't matter which
you have, but there should only be one.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From geek at uniserve.com  Mon Oct  8 23:25:06 2018
From: geek at uniserve.com (Dave Stevens)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2018 20:25:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'm doing as check_perms suggests with no change -
 what next?
Message-ID: <20181008202506.176674kbffnl8f4i@webmail.uniserve.com>

root at web6:/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/stewards# check_perms -f
/var/lib/mailman/scripts bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
/var/lib/mailman/locks bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
/var/lib/mailman/Mailman bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
/var/lib/mailman/templates bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
/var/lib/mailman/icons bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
/var/lib/mailman/mail bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
/var/lib/mailman/cron bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
/var/lib/mailman/cgi-bin bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
/var/lib/mailman/logs bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
/var/lib/mailman/bin bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
Problems found: 10
Re-run as list (or root) with -f flag to fix

I'be repeated this several times and don't see what to do. Ideas?

Dave

-- 
"As long as politics is the shadow cast on society by big business,
the attenuation of the shadow will not change the substance."

-- John Dewey






From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct  9 08:45:42 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2018 05:45:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I'm doing as check_perms suggests with no
 change - what next?
In-Reply-To: <20181008202506.176674kbffnl8f4i@webmail.uniserve.com>
References: <20181008202506.176674kbffnl8f4i@webmail.uniserve.com>
Message-ID: <7AD3A51D-D3C0-42FC-A61C-D76483CA0591@msapiro.net>

On October 8, 2018 8:25:06 PM PDT, Dave Stevens <geek at uniserve.com> wrote:
>root at web6:/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/stewards# check_perms -f
>/var/lib/mailman/scripts bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
>/var/lib/mailman/locks bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
>/var/lib/mailman/Mailman bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
>/var/lib/mailman/templates bad group (has: root, expected list)
>(fixing)
>/var/lib/mailman/icons bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
>/var/lib/mailman/mail bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
>/var/lib/mailman/cron bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
>/var/lib/mailman/cgi-bin bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
>/var/lib/mailman/logs bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
>/var/lib/mailman/bin bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing)
>Problems found: 10
>Re-run as list (or root) with -f flag to fix
>
>I'be repeated this several times and don't see what to do. Ideas?


First see <https://wiki.list.org/x/12812344>.

That said, those are all symlinks and owner/group/mode don't matter on symlinks.



-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Sent from my Not_an_iThing with standards compliant, open source software.

From bernie at fantasyfarm.com  Wed Oct 10 20:34:22 2018
From: bernie at fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 20:34:22 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicate mod request waiting emails
Message-ID: <5BBE9A8E.16056.33B64162@bernie.fantasyfarm.com>

Very curious!  The second message was sent a few minutes after the first:

Subject: 1 NPL-Folk moderator request(s) waiting
From: npl-folk-bounces at lists.puzzlers.org
To: npl-folk-owner at lists.puzzlers.org
Message-ID: 
<mailman.0.1538965012.1994.npl-folk-puzzlers.org at lists.puzzlers.org>
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2018 19:16:52 -0700

Subject: 1 NPL-Folk moderator request(s) waiting
From: npl-folk-bounces at lists.puzzlers.org
To: npl-folk-owner at lists.puzzlers.org
Message-ID: 
<mailman.0.1538965394.8110.npl-folk-puzzlers.org at lists.puzzlers.org>
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2018 19:23:14 -0700

Completely separate, duplicate "waiting" emails!

  /Bernie\
            Bernie Cosell
       bernie at fantasyfarm.com
-- Too many people; too few sheep --
   




From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct 11 01:28:51 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 22:28:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicate mod request waiting emails
In-Reply-To: <5BBE9A8E.16056.33B64162@bernie.fantasyfarm.com>
References: <5BBE9A8E.16056.33B64162@bernie.fantasyfarm.com>
Message-ID: <38ae267b-aef4-a754-0b58-76ae9bd45d1a@msapiro.net>

On 10/10/2018 05:34 PM, Bernie Cosell wrote:
> Very curious!  The second message was sent a few minutes after the first:
> 
> Subject: 1 NPL-Folk moderator request(s) waiting
> From: npl-folk-bounces at lists.puzzlers.org
> To: npl-folk-owner at lists.puzzlers.org
> Message-ID: 
> <mailman.0.1538965012.1994.npl-folk-puzzlers.org at lists.puzzlers.org>
> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2018 19:16:52 -0700
> 
> Subject: 1 NPL-Folk moderator request(s) waiting
> From: npl-folk-bounces at lists.puzzlers.org
> To: npl-folk-owner at lists.puzzlers.org
> Message-ID: 
> <mailman.0.1538965394.8110.npl-folk-puzzlers.org at lists.puzzlers.org>
> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2018 19:23:14 -0700
> 
> Completely separate, duplicate "waiting" emails!


There are two possibilities. One possibility is the two messages come
from separate Mailman instances, but this doesn't seem likely as it
usually results in the issue described at <https://wiki.list.org/x/8683538>.

The other possibility is Mailman's cron/checkdbs is being run twice,
possibly by two different entries in the same crontab or possibly by two
different crontabs.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fmouse at fmp.com  Fri Oct 12 11:20:58 2018
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:20:58 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recursion problem with "disabled" cron job.
Message-ID: <1539357658.119875.8.camel@fmp.com>

I'm running Mailman?2.1.18-1
I'm running cron job daily with this command:

/usr/bin/python -S /usr/lib64/mailman/cron/disabled

I've started getting the following messages indicating a code problem
with this script, to wit:

Traceback (most recent call last):
? File "/usr/lib64/mailman/cron/disabled", line 227, in <module>
????main()
? File "/usr/lib64/mailman/cron/disabled", line 204, in main
????member)
? File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Pending.py", line 67, in pend_new
????db = self.__load()
? File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Pending.py", line 97, in __load
????return cPickle.load(fp)
? File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 138, in __getattr__
????return getattr(self._memberadaptor, name)
? File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 138, in __getattr__
    return getattr(self._memberadaptor, name)
? etc .....

.... until the recursion limit is exceeded.

To the best of my knowledge, this is relatively new. Any ideas about
what might be happening here? Was this perhaps addressed in a newer
version of MM?

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The first casualty when
FMP Computer Services |         war comes is truth."
512-259-1190          |            
http://www.fmp.com    |     -- Hiram W Johnson



From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct 12 14:31:19 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 11:31:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recursion problem with "disabled" cron job.
In-Reply-To: <1539357658.119875.8.camel@fmp.com>
References: <1539357658.119875.8.camel@fmp.com>
Message-ID: <60d5ce53-f78f-5c0c-10d2-2d41e8b4d0a6@msapiro.net>

On 10/12/2018 08:20 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> I'm running Mailman?2.1.18-1
> I'm running cron job daily with this command:
> 
> /usr/bin/python -S /usr/lib64/mailman/cron/disabled
> 
> I've started getting the following messages indicating a code problem
> with this script, to wit:
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> ? File "/usr/lib64/mailman/cron/disabled", line 227, in <module>
> ????main()
> ? File "/usr/lib64/mailman/cron/disabled", line 204, in main
> ????member)
> ? File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Pending.py", line 67, in pend_new
> ????db = self.__load()
> ? File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Pending.py", line 97, in __load
> ????return cPickle.load(fp)
> ? File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 138, in __getattr__
> ????return getattr(self._memberadaptor, name)
> ? File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 138, in __getattr__
>     return getattr(self._memberadaptor, name)
> ? etc .....
> 
> .... until the recursion limit is exceeded.


At first glance, this doesn't seem related to cron/disabled.

The scenario is cron/disabled has found a list member whose delivery is
disabled by bounce and is due another warning notice. It is getting a
new 're-enable' token for the notice. This calls mlist.pend_new and the
first thing that does is try to load the list's pending.pck file. How
that gets into a loop calling the list's __getattr__() method is not
clear, but I suspect a corrupt pending.pck file for some list.

I would do the following in bash:

cd /usr/lib64/mailman/
for list in `bin/list_lists --bare`; do
    if [ -f lists/$list/pending.pck ]; then
        echo $list
        bin/dumpdb lists/$list/pending.pck|grep evictions
    fi
done

This should print two lines for every list that has a pending.pck, the
name of the list and a line that begins

    'evictions': {

You are looking for a list that doesn't print the 'evictions' line or
that exhibits the loop.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From geek at uniserve.com  Sat Oct 13 16:35:32 2018
From: geek at uniserve.com (Dave Stevens)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 13:35:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] most recent docs?
Message-ID: <20181013133532.637d06db@user-Satellite-A100>

Mark suggested I take up an issue with my distro maintainers which I've
done. One part of that is reading the admin guide dated June 2, 2017
and written by Barry Warsaw. There's another such document at
https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%202.1%20List%20Administrators%20Manual?highlight=%28admin%29%7C%28warsaw%29
and isn't clear to me which is most up to date. Anyone know?

Dave


-- 
In modern fantasy (literary or governmental), killing people is the
usual solution to the so-called war between good and evil. My books are
not conceived in terms of such a war, and offer no simple answers to
simplistic questions.

----- Ursula Le Guin

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Oct 13 18:48:38 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 15:48:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] most recent docs?
In-Reply-To: <20181013133532.637d06db@user-Satellite-A100>
References: <20181013133532.637d06db@user-Satellite-A100>
Message-ID: <259d9314-de35-e3ad-2ca2-8346a75ec6b1@msapiro.net>

On 10/13/2018 01:35 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
> Mark suggested I take up an issue with my distro maintainers which I've
> done. One part of that is reading the admin guide dated June 2, 2017
> and written by Barry Warsaw.


Actually the date is misleading. That's just the date I rebuilt the docs
for the then current release. The content is actually older than that.


> There's another such document at
> https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%202.1%20List%20Administrators%20Manual?highlight=%28admin%29%7C%28warsaw%29
> and isn't clear to me which is most up to date. Anyone know?


It is intended that the one in the wiki is the most up to date, but
there are still some sections there that are just placeholders.

Neither document is completely up to date with features from the last
few releases.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fmouse at fmp.com  Sun Oct 14 12:13:43 2018
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 11:13:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recursion problem with "disabled" cron job.
In-Reply-To: <60d5ce53-f78f-5c0c-10d2-2d41e8b4d0a6@msapiro.net>
References: <1539357658.119875.8.camel@fmp.com>
 <60d5ce53-f78f-5c0c-10d2-2d41e8b4d0a6@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <bb8b60504dab699fea39929e359ae3c039b75b76.camel@fmp.com>

Here's what happened. Among the lists my server hosts is one for a
local folk music mailing list. It's a large, "general announcements"
list, on a short fuse for bounces (bounce_score_threshold = 1.0). Last
weekend I noticed 49 disablement notices in my inbox, all of them from
Microsoft domain names - hotmail.com, msn.com, outlook.com, etc. It
seems that MS had blacklisted FMP's IP address, triggering bounces and
subsequent disablements.

I dealt with Microsoft and got the blacklisting removed, and we went
through the subscriber list on the web UI and re-enabled all the
disabled addresses.

This is when the recursive error started happening. It looks as if what
we did somehow got crosswise with Mailman's internal record keeping,
and something in MM's relational database setup is now corrupt.

So I can pretty definitively identify the list, based on your
discussion, and what happened here, which is causing the problem. The
question is, how can we fix it?

We know the addresses which were disabled. Would it suffice to delete
these addresses from the list and re-add them?? Is there some other way
to bring what appears to be effectively a non-normalized relational
database back in sync with itself?

On Fri, 2018-10-12 at 11:31 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/12/2018 08:20 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> > I'm running Mailman 2.1.18-1
> > I'm running cron job daily with this command:
> > 
> > /usr/bin/python -S /usr/lib64/mailman/cron/disabled
> > 
> > I've started getting the following messages indicating a code
> > problem
> > with this script, to wit:
> > 
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> >   File "/usr/lib64/mailman/cron/disabled", line 227, in <module>
> >     main()
> >   File "/usr/lib64/mailman/cron/disabled", line 204, in main
> >     member)
> >   File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Pending.py", line 67, in
> > pend_new
> >     db = self.__load()
> >   File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Pending.py", line 97, in __load
> >     return cPickle.load(fp)
> >   File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 138, in
> > __getattr__
> >     return getattr(self._memberadaptor, name)
> >   File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 138, in
> > __getattr__
> >     return getattr(self._memberadaptor, name)
> >   etc .....
> > 
> > .... until the recursion limit is exceeded.
> 
> 
> At first glance, this doesn't seem related to cron/disabled.
> 
> The scenario is cron/disabled has found a list member whose delivery is
> disabled by bounce and is due another warning notice. It is getting a
> new 're-enable' token for the notice. This calls mlist.pend_new and the
> first thing that does is try to load the list's pending.pck file. How
> that gets into a loop calling the list's __getattr__() method is not
> clear, but I suspect a corrupt pending.pck file for some list.
> 
> I would do the following in bash:
> 
> cd /usr/lib64/mailman/
> for list in `bin/list_lists --bare`; do
>     if [ -f lists/$list/pending.pck ]; then
>         echo $list
>         bin/dumpdb lists/$list/pending.pck|grep evictions
>     fi
> done
> 
> This should print two lines for every list that has a pending.pck, the
> name of the list and a line that begins
> 
>     'evictions': {
> 
> You are looking for a list that doesn't print the 'evictions' line or
> that exhibits the loop.
> 
-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The first casualty when
FMP Computer Services |         war comes is truth."
512-259-1190          |            
http://www.fmp.com    |     -- Hiram W Johnson


From fmouse at fmp.com  Sun Oct 14 12:41:00 2018
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 11:41:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recursion problem with "disabled" cron job.
In-Reply-To: <60d5ce53-f78f-5c0c-10d2-2d41e8b4d0a6@msapiro.net>
References: <1539357658.119875.8.camel@fmp.com>
 <60d5ce53-f78f-5c0c-10d2-2d41e8b4d0a6@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <cb02c12e1e2d2488257ca0065deb71afd7ed4ea5.camel@fmp.com>

On Fri, 2018-10-12 at 11:31 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> cd /usr/lib64/mailman/
> for list in `bin/list_lists --bare`; do
>     if [ -f lists/$list/pending.pck ]; then
>         echo $list
>         bin/dumpdb lists/$list/pending.pck|grep evictions
>     fi
> done

Thanks for the code, Mark. I should note, though, that dumpdb expects a
FQPN (if the path isn't relative to the PWD), and I believe the default
for most MM installs is to put the python pickle files under
/var/lib/mailman, so this line, for anyone else who might want to use or document it, should be

   bin/dumpdb /var/lib/mailman/lists/$list/pending.pck|grep evictions

This, at least, is how things are laid out here, although perhaps the
standard now is to put the lists dir under /usr/lib64/mailman.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The first casualty when
FMP Computer Services |         war comes is truth."
512-259-1190          |            
http://www.fmp.com    |     -- Hiram W Johnson


From fmouse at fmp.com  Sun Oct 14 12:50:54 2018
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 11:50:54 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recursion problem with "disabled" cron job.
In-Reply-To: <60d5ce53-f78f-5c0c-10d2-2d41e8b4d0a6@msapiro.net>
References: <1539357658.119875.8.camel@fmp.com>
 <60d5ce53-f78f-5c0c-10d2-2d41e8b4d0a6@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <3907c8cf93487ff38865f2384242779cb76000bb.camel@fmp.com>

On Fri, 2018-10-12 at 11:31 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> You are looking for a list that doesn't print the 'evictions' line or
> that exhibits the loop.

And yes, I can trigger the recursion with the bash snippet you posted,
and it is indeed in the list which had 49 disablements (and manual re-
enablements) after our blacklisting by Microsoft last weekend.

The question now is how to fix it?

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The first casualty when
FMP Computer Services |         war comes is truth."
512-259-1190          |            
http://www.fmp.com    |     -- Hiram W Johnson


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Oct 14 19:21:15 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 16:21:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recursion problem with "disabled" cron job.
In-Reply-To: <cb02c12e1e2d2488257ca0065deb71afd7ed4ea5.camel@fmp.com>
References: <1539357658.119875.8.camel@fmp.com>
 <60d5ce53-f78f-5c0c-10d2-2d41e8b4d0a6@msapiro.net>
 <cb02c12e1e2d2488257ca0065deb71afd7ed4ea5.camel@fmp.com>
Message-ID: <c8ed5be5-e8bf-7968-6f73-8f2b29571fed@msapiro.net>

On 10/14/2018 09:41 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> On Fri, 2018-10-12 at 11:31 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> cd /usr/lib64/mailman/
>> for list in `bin/list_lists --bare`; do
>>     if [ -f lists/$list/pending.pck ]; then
>>         echo $list
>>         bin/dumpdb lists/$list/pending.pck|grep evictions
>>     fi
>> done
> 
> Thanks for the code, Mark. I should note, though, that dumpdb expects a
> FQPN (if the path isn't relative to the PWD), and I believe the default
> for most MM installs is to put the python pickle files under
> /var/lib/mailman,


The default for both 'prefix' (basically the source code) and
'var_prefix' (mutable data) for a built from source configure is
/usr/local/mailman. Various downstream packagers will configure mailman
to put things wherever they want.


> so this line, for anyone else who might want to use or document it, should be
> 
>    bin/dumpdb /var/lib/mailman/lists/$list/pending.pck|grep evictions
> 
> This, at least, is how things are laid out here, although perhaps the
> standard now is to put the lists dir under /usr/lib64/mailman.


I was wrong to create the sample script assuming that everything was in
/usr/lib64/mailman. That was an oversimplification.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Oct 14 19:28:14 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 16:28:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recursion problem with "disabled" cron job.
In-Reply-To: <3907c8cf93487ff38865f2384242779cb76000bb.camel@fmp.com>
References: <1539357658.119875.8.camel@fmp.com>
 <60d5ce53-f78f-5c0c-10d2-2d41e8b4d0a6@msapiro.net>
 <3907c8cf93487ff38865f2384242779cb76000bb.camel@fmp.com>
Message-ID: <b6913ae4-0e91-8a0c-d24d-6e336e21e3e7@msapiro.net>

On 10/14/2018 09:50 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> 
> And yes, I can trigger the recursion with the bash snippet you posted,
> and it is indeed in the list which had 49 disablements (and manual re-
> enablements) after our blacklisting by Microsoft last weekend.
> 
> The question now is how to fix it?


Fix it by removing the corrupt lists/LISTNAME/pending.pck file.

If you are interested in trying to determine what happened, you can save
that file. If bin/dumpdb will dump it, that output may tell you what is
wrong with the file. If bin/dumpdb says it's not a pickle or exhibits
the loop or even if it produces reasonable output that you don't
understand, and you are really interested, you can send the pending.pck
file to me and I'll look at it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fmouse at fmp.com  Sun Oct 14 22:33:23 2018
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 21:33:23 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recursion problem with "disabled" cron job.
In-Reply-To: <b6913ae4-0e91-8a0c-d24d-6e336e21e3e7@msapiro.net>
References: <1539357658.119875.8.camel@fmp.com>
 <60d5ce53-f78f-5c0c-10d2-2d41e8b4d0a6@msapiro.net>
 <3907c8cf93487ff38865f2384242779cb76000bb.camel@fmp.com>
 <b6913ae4-0e91-8a0c-d24d-6e336e21e3e7@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <3af42fd81babb1191b5814e1e3828aa99bc20c25.camel@fmp.com>

On Sun, 2018-10-14 at 16:28 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Fix it by removing the corrupt lists/LISTNAME/pending.pck file.

Can I assume a proper replacement will be auto-generated going forward?

> If you are interested in trying to determine what happened, you can save
> that file. If bin/dumpdb will dump it, that output may tell you what is
> wrong with the file. If bin/dumpdb says it's not a pickle or exhibits
> the loop or even if it produces reasonable output that you don't
> understand, and you are really interested, you can send the pending.pck
> file to me and I'll look at it.

My thinking is that if the pickle is corrupt, it was corrupted during
normal operations of MM. Posts to subscribers bounced, MM disabled (but
did not delete) the addresses. The addresses were manually re-enabled
using the MM subscriber management web UI, and we have a corrupted
file. So this looks like a bug or a python anomaly.

$ dumpdb lists/aftm/pending.pck
[----- start pickle file -----]
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/lib64/mailman/bin/dumpdb", line 156, in <module>
    msg = main()
  File "/usr/lib64/mailman/bin/dumpdb", line 136, in main
    obj = load(fp)
  File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 138, in __getattr__
    return getattr(self._memberadaptor, name)
  File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 138, in __getattr__
    return getattr(self._memberadaptor, name)
 ... ad recursionum maximus

Nothing to see here ..... :(

Perhaps simply deleting pending.pck as you suggest and moving on is the
wisest move. We're all busy, and sometimes things just break for
obscure reasons which aren't worth the effort to fully explore if the
problem is rare and a quick-fix readily available. I have plenty of
excellent software, notably my Evolution MUA, which has some nasty pot-
holes scattered among otherwise exceptional features. One learns to
deal with them.

I'll be happy to send the sour pickle to you, Mark, if you want to look
into it, but it's your call.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The first casualty when
FMP Computer Services |         war comes is truth."
512-259-1190          |            
http://www.fmp.com    |     -- Hiram W Johnson


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Oct 15 21:16:32 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 18:16:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recursion problem with "disabled" cron job.
In-Reply-To: <3af42fd81babb1191b5814e1e3828aa99bc20c25.camel@fmp.com>
References: <1539357658.119875.8.camel@fmp.com>
 <60d5ce53-f78f-5c0c-10d2-2d41e8b4d0a6@msapiro.net>
 <3907c8cf93487ff38865f2384242779cb76000bb.camel@fmp.com>
 <b6913ae4-0e91-8a0c-d24d-6e336e21e3e7@msapiro.net>
 <3af42fd81babb1191b5814e1e3828aa99bc20c25.camel@fmp.com>
Message-ID: <c61ff614-949c-84ad-5019-51e9c8947acc@msapiro.net>

On 10/14/18 7:33 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> On Sun, 2018-10-14 at 16:28 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> Fix it by removing the corrupt lists/LISTNAME/pending.pck file.
> 
> Can I assume a proper replacement will be auto-generated going forward?


Yes, the next time something is pended, the file will be created.


> My thinking is that if the pickle is corrupt, it was corrupted during
> normal operations of MM. Posts to subscribers bounced, MM disabled (but
> did not delete) the addresses. The addresses were manually re-enabled
> using the MM subscriber management web UI, and we have a corrupted
> file. So this looks like a bug or a python anomaly.


Granted if all that was done was that bounce processing disabled a bunch
of deliveries (and pended a re-enable token for each one), the file
shouldn't have been corrupted. Re-enabling delivery via the member
management UI doesn't touch pending.pck.

Is there anything in Mailman's error log from around the time of these
bounces or later?

Basically, if a delivery disable by bounce was successful, the
pending.pck was good at that time.

You might look at the change date on the pending.pck if you still have
the original and see if there's anything in Mailman's logs with that
time stamp.


> I'll be happy to send the sour pickle to you, Mark, if you want to look
> into it, but it's your call.


I'm curious enough to look at it, so yes, send it to me.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fmouse at fmp.com  Mon Oct 15 23:14:58 2018
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 22:14:58 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recursion problem with "disabled" cron job.
In-Reply-To: <c61ff614-949c-84ad-5019-51e9c8947acc@msapiro.net>
References: <1539357658.119875.8.camel@fmp.com>
 <60d5ce53-f78f-5c0c-10d2-2d41e8b4d0a6@msapiro.net>
 <3907c8cf93487ff38865f2384242779cb76000bb.camel@fmp.com>
 <b6913ae4-0e91-8a0c-d24d-6e336e21e3e7@msapiro.net>
 <3af42fd81babb1191b5814e1e3828aa99bc20c25.camel@fmp.com>
 <c61ff614-949c-84ad-5019-51e9c8947acc@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <87e76c3242808529f1a96e4d9b0f88be79ad669a.camel@fmp.com>

On Mon, 2018-10-15 at 18:16 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Granted if all that was done was that bounce processing disabled a bunch
> of deliveries (and pended a re-enable token for each one), the file
> shouldn't have been corrupted. Re-enabling delivery via the member
> management UI doesn't touch pending.pck.
> 
> Is there anything in Mailman's error log from around the time of these
> bounces or later?

The list is called aftm.

The file timestamp on pending.pck is Oct  7 22:49, which I assume is
the last time it was modified, and probably corrupted at that time,
too. There are no errors which appear to be related. The closest events
are as follows:

>From subscribe:

   Oct 07 22:47:23 2018 (19359) aftm: new Jack xxxx <Bluexx at gmail.com>, admin mass sub
   Oct 07 22:47:23 2018 (19359) aftm: new Chip xxxx <bxxxx at gmail.com>, admin mass sub

   Same list, but these look unrelated.

>From bounce:

   Many bounces from Microsoft addresses, the last one being:
   Oct 07 10:29:33 2018 (29052) aftm: stevexxxx at hotmail.com residual bounce received

Here's the first occurrence of the recursion issue in the error log:

Oct 08 17:20:47 2018 (3892) Uncaught runner exception: maximum recursion depth exceeded
Oct 08 17:20:47 2018 (3892) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in _oneloop
    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Queue/CommandRunner.py", line 267, in _dispose
    ret = res.do_command('leave')
  File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Queue/CommandRunner.py", line 151, in do_command
    if handler.process(self, args):
  File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Commands/cmd_unsubscribe.py", line 76, in process
    mlist.ConfirmUnsubscription(cpaddr)
  File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 1333, in ConfirmUnsubscription
    cookie = self.pend_new(Pending.UNSUBSCRIPTION, addr)
  File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Pending.py", line 67, in pend_new
    db = self.__load()
  File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Pending.py", line 97, in __load
    return cPickle.load(fp)
  File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 138, in __getattr__
    return getattr(self._memberadaptor, name)
  File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 138, in __getattr__
    return getattr(self._memberadaptor, name)
  ... ad recursionum maximus

Unfortunately, I don't have the disablement notification emails (with
timestamps) which I received from MM which alerted me to the Microsoft
blocking issue. I've combed through the mail log a bit, but don't see
it there.

> Basically, if a delivery disable by bounce was successful, the
> pending.pck was good at that time.

True, dat. 

> You might look at the change date on the pending.pck if you still have
> the original and see if there's anything in Mailman's logs with that
> time stamp.

I did think of that. See above.

> > I'll be happy to send the sour pickle to you, Mark, if you want to look
> > into it, but it's your call.
> 
> I'm curious enough to look at it, so yes, send it to me.

I'll send it to you privately.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The first casualty when
FMP Computer Services |         war comes is truth."
512-259-1190          |            
http://www.fmp.com    |     -- Hiram W Johnson


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct 16 00:09:41 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 21:09:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recursion problem with "disabled" cron job.
In-Reply-To: <87e76c3242808529f1a96e4d9b0f88be79ad669a.camel@fmp.com>
References: <1539357658.119875.8.camel@fmp.com>
 <60d5ce53-f78f-5c0c-10d2-2d41e8b4d0a6@msapiro.net>
 <3907c8cf93487ff38865f2384242779cb76000bb.camel@fmp.com>
 <b6913ae4-0e91-8a0c-d24d-6e336e21e3e7@msapiro.net>
 <3af42fd81babb1191b5814e1e3828aa99bc20c25.camel@fmp.com>
 <c61ff614-949c-84ad-5019-51e9c8947acc@msapiro.net>
 <87e76c3242808529f1a96e4d9b0f88be79ad669a.camel@fmp.com>
Message-ID: <0d408dd6-8e14-a398-6af9-678d64717313@msapiro.net>

On 10/15/18 8:14 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't have the disablement notification emails (with
> timestamps) which I received from MM which alerted me to the Microsoft
> blocking issue. I've combed through the mail log a bit, but don't see
> it there.


There should be "delivery disabled" entries in Mailman's bounce log.


>>> I'll be happy to send the sour pickle to you, Mark, if you want to look
>>> into it, but it's your call.
>>
>> I'm curious enough to look at it, so yes, send it to me.
> 
> I'll send it to you privately.


I've looked at the pending.pck, and it is very messed up.

The initial portion of it contains 23 re-enable tokens, one unsubscribe
token and the 'version' entry.

This is followed by what looks like the list's config.pck file data and
then some more re-enable tokens and the 'evictions' entry.

I.e., it appears that somehow something was saving the pending data to
the pending.pck and in the middle of that operation something saved the
list's config.pck file to the same file. It's as if something was
updating the list and the pending database and had a single file
descriptor for both the config.pck and the pending.pck, but I have no
idea how that could happen.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fmouse at fmp.com  Tue Oct 16 00:23:10 2018
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 23:23:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recursion problem with "disabled" cron job.
In-Reply-To: <0d408dd6-8e14-a398-6af9-678d64717313@msapiro.net>
References: <1539357658.119875.8.camel@fmp.com>
 <60d5ce53-f78f-5c0c-10d2-2d41e8b4d0a6@msapiro.net>
 <3907c8cf93487ff38865f2384242779cb76000bb.camel@fmp.com>
 <b6913ae4-0e91-8a0c-d24d-6e336e21e3e7@msapiro.net>
 <3af42fd81babb1191b5814e1e3828aa99bc20c25.camel@fmp.com>
 <c61ff614-949c-84ad-5019-51e9c8947acc@msapiro.net>
 <87e76c3242808529f1a96e4d9b0f88be79ad669a.camel@fmp.com>
 <0d408dd6-8e14-a398-6af9-678d64717313@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <bb1687762332ebffe4e4637f981ab64acb2865d5.camel@fmp.com>

On Mon, 2018-10-15 at 21:09 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> There should be "delivery disabled" entries in Mailman's bounce log.

Nada, even though I got email notifications of the disablement.

> It's as if something was
> updating the list and the pending database and had a single file
> descriptor for both the config.pck and the pending.pck, but I have no
> idea how that could happen.

Evil spirits.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The first casualty when
FMP Computer Services |         war comes is truth."
512-259-1190          |            
http://www.fmp.com    |     -- Hiram W Johnson


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct 16 00:43:28 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 21:43:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recursion problem with "disabled" cron job.
In-Reply-To: <bb1687762332ebffe4e4637f981ab64acb2865d5.camel@fmp.com>
References: <1539357658.119875.8.camel@fmp.com>
 <60d5ce53-f78f-5c0c-10d2-2d41e8b4d0a6@msapiro.net>
 <3907c8cf93487ff38865f2384242779cb76000bb.camel@fmp.com>
 <b6913ae4-0e91-8a0c-d24d-6e336e21e3e7@msapiro.net>
 <3af42fd81babb1191b5814e1e3828aa99bc20c25.camel@fmp.com>
 <c61ff614-949c-84ad-5019-51e9c8947acc@msapiro.net>
 <87e76c3242808529f1a96e4d9b0f88be79ad669a.camel@fmp.com>
 <0d408dd6-8e14-a398-6af9-678d64717313@msapiro.net>
 <bb1687762332ebffe4e4637f981ab64acb2865d5.camel@fmp.com>
Message-ID: <e767440b-8f44-f533-5951-2f0ce718d14a@msapiro.net>

On 10/15/18 9:23 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> On Mon, 2018-10-15 at 21:09 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> There should be "delivery disabled" entries in Mailman's bounce log.
> 
> Nada, even though I got email notifications of the disablement.


There must be entries of the form

Oct 12 03:20:10 2018 (2138) LISTNAME: user at example.com disabling due to
bounce score 1.0 >= 1.0

in the bounce log. Perhaps I confused you by writing "delivery disabled"
without actually looking at the message.


>> It's as if something was
>> updating the list and the pending database and had a single file
>> descriptor for both the config.pck and the pending.pck, but I have no
>> idea how that could happen.
> 
> Evil spirits.


Much as I hate to say it, I think without further evidence we have to go
with that.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fmouse at fmp.com  Tue Oct 16 00:59:10 2018
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 23:59:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Recursion problem with "disabled" cron job.
In-Reply-To: <e767440b-8f44-f533-5951-2f0ce718d14a@msapiro.net>
References: <1539357658.119875.8.camel@fmp.com>
 <60d5ce53-f78f-5c0c-10d2-2d41e8b4d0a6@msapiro.net>
 <3907c8cf93487ff38865f2384242779cb76000bb.camel@fmp.com>
 <b6913ae4-0e91-8a0c-d24d-6e336e21e3e7@msapiro.net>
 <3af42fd81babb1191b5814e1e3828aa99bc20c25.camel@fmp.com>
 <c61ff614-949c-84ad-5019-51e9c8947acc@msapiro.net>
 <87e76c3242808529f1a96e4d9b0f88be79ad669a.camel@fmp.com>
 <0d408dd6-8e14-a398-6af9-678d64717313@msapiro.net>
 <bb1687762332ebffe4e4637f981ab64acb2865d5.camel@fmp.com>
 <e767440b-8f44-f533-5951-2f0ce718d14a@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <68657aa0cdd2d04776eaab1465e3135b22fac16f.camel@fmp.com>

On Mon, 2018-10-15 at 21:43 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/15/18 9:23 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> > On Mon, 2018-10-15 at 21:09 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> > > There should be "delivery disabled" entries in Mailman's bounce log.
> > 
> > Nada, even though I got email notifications of the disablement.
> 
> 
> There must be entries of the form
> 
> Oct 12 03:20:10 2018 (2138) LISTNAME: user at example.com disabling due to
> bounce score 1.0 >= 1.0
> 
> in the bounce log. Perhaps I confused you by writing "delivery disabled"
> without actually looking at the message.

A-ha! Yes. I'm just using grep, which requires precision. I found the
disablement notices, timestamp Oct 07 10:14:33.


> > > It's as if something was
> > > updating the list and the pending database and had a single file
> > > descriptor for both the config.pck and the pending.pck, but I have no
> > > idea how that could happen.
> > 
> > Evil spirits.

I did find a reference, perhaps relevant, to the effect that there
could be fd confusion in python pickling if using the Twisted API. I
don't see that MM uses this. I took a look at Twisted at one point and
it was too strange a beast for me to give it much consideration. I'm an
old-fashioned hacker :) I cut my programming teeth on Z-80 assembly
language programming, which gives you a clue to my age.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The first casualty when
FMP Computer Services |         war comes is truth."
512-259-1190          |            
http://www.fmp.com    |     -- Hiram W Johnson


From jimpop at domainmail.org  Tue Oct 16 23:26:54 2018
From: jimpop at domainmail.org (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 23:26:54 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] new Mailman Ubuntu builds (PPA)
Message-ID: <1539746814.1950.3.camel@domainmail.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Hello,

With some help from Mark and Barry, I was able to setup build "recipes"
(Ubuntu Launchpad configurations) that will now automatically build and
publish the latest greatest Mailman 2.x source that Mark releases. 
That's right, it's all auto-magical.  When Mark pushes an update to
Mailman, Lauchpad detects it and builds and releases packages (.debs) in
the new Mailman PPA.


The 5 build variants are:

  mailman
     https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1

  mailman-htdig
     https://code.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/htdig

  mailman-htdig-mhonarc
     https://code.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/htdig_mhonarc

  mailman-mhonarc
      https://code.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/mhonarc

  mailman-vhost
      https://code.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/vhost


The currently released distributions are:

    Ubuntu/Precise LTS (12.04)
    Ubuntu/Trusty LTS (14.04)
    Ubuntu/Xenial LTS (16.04)
    Ubuntu/Bionic LTS (18.04)
    Ubuntu/Cosmic (18.10)

...across these processor architectures:

    AMD x86-64 (amd64)
?   ARM ARMv8 (arm64)
   ?ARM ARMv7 Soft Float (armel)
   ?ARM ARMv7 Hard Float (armhf)
?   Intel x86 (i386)
?   PowerPC (powerpc)
?   PowerPC64 Little-Endian (ppc64el)
   ?IBM System z (s390x)

That's right, fire up your System Z and create a near infinite number of
lists.  :-)


For more information on the new Mailman PPA, please see this link:
https://launchpad.net/~mailman-administrivia/+archive/ubuntu/ppa

- -Jim P.





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From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Thu Oct 18 04:01:35 2018
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 10:01:35 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Prioritizing mails?
Message-ID: <20181018080135.GH18275@charite.de>

We're runnging a mailman server with a lot of lists. Today somebody sent
quite a large mail (attachment) to a newly created list with 14.000
recipients.

This caused all other mail via Mailman to be more or less stalled. Is
there a way of assigning priorities to lists, like giving all lists
"normal" priority and large lists "low" priority?

OTOH sending small mails to large lists is ok, so maybe the product of
"size_of_mail" and "number_of_list_recipients" could be used to adjust
the priority accordingly....

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
https://www.charite.de             Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From Hi at 3x5.co  Wed Oct 17 15:21:47 2018
From: Hi at 3x5.co (=?UTF-8?Q?3=c3=975?=)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 14:21:47 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Auto-populating lists from postfix virtual_aliases
Message-ID: <9a2f3afb-6d11-451b-ea99-01e06a32f7bf@3x5.co>

Hello,

I have a client with an existing mail server that uses postfix. He wants 
to be able to occasionally mass-mail all the users in the 
virtual_aliases table. However, they need to be able to opt-out of these 
emails, like any other mailing list.

He also wants to be able to send to lists based on virtual domain. There 
are several domains in the virtual_domains table of the mail server, and 
he wants to be able to filter by one, and mail to everyone in 
virtual_aliases who hasn't opted out and whose domain matches the filter.

I know that it's possible to integrate Mailman with postfix, but I don't 
know if mailman can pull together lists in this way. Is it possible, or 
is mailman the wrong tool for this job?

Thanks for reading!

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct 18 16:20:09 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 13:20:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Prioritizing mails?
In-Reply-To: <20181018080135.GH18275@charite.de>
References: <20181018080135.GH18275@charite.de>
Message-ID: <65d802bc-a7a3-6337-abcc-b9547a3f8d38@msapiro.net>

On 10/18/18 1:01 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
> 
> This caused all other mail via Mailman to be more or less stalled. Is
> there a way of assigning priorities to lists, like giving all lists
> "normal" priority and large lists "low" priority?
> 
> OTOH sending small mails to large lists is ok, so maybe the product of
> "size_of_mail" and "number_of_list_recipients" could be used to adjust
> the priority accordingly....


The architecture of both Mailman 2.1 and Mailman 3 doesn't really allow
for this to be done too easily. Messages are queued for delivery in a
FIFO queue for the outgoing runner(s). Slicing the queue space into
multiple ranges for multiple runners doesn't solve the problem as other
messages in the range with the "big" message will still have to wait.

What could be done is to create multiple outgoing queues, say normal_out
and big_out and then have separate instances of the outgoing runner
processing the two queues. Then the handler that queues outgoing
messages could decide which queue based on whatever criteria are desired.

This wouldn't make the "big" message wait until after the normal
messages were all processed, but the "big" message would be processed by
a separate process and the normal messages wouldn't have to wait for it
to complete.

I don't think it would be too difficult to implement this, but my advice
would be to use content filtering and maximum message size to prevent
the problem which could have been easily avoided in this case by making
the attachment web accessible and including only a link in the post.

Note that if your list owners don't understand the importance of maximum
message size, there is for Mailman 2.1 an example handler that
implements a global maximum at
<https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/GlobalTooBig.py>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Thu Oct 18 16:29:46 2018
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 22:29:46 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [ext] Re:  Prioritizing mails?
In-Reply-To: <65d802bc-a7a3-6337-abcc-b9547a3f8d38@msapiro.net>
References: <20181018080135.GH18275@charite.de>
 <65d802bc-a7a3-6337-abcc-b9547a3f8d38@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20181018202946.GB25418@charite.de>

* Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
> On 10/18/18 1:01 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
> > 
> > This caused all other mail via Mailman to be more or less stalled. Is
> > there a way of assigning priorities to lists, like giving all lists
> > "normal" priority and large lists "low" priority?
> > 
> > OTOH sending small mails to large lists is ok, so maybe the product of
> > "size_of_mail" and "number_of_list_recipients" could be used to adjust
> > the priority accordingly....
> 
> 
> The architecture of both Mailman 2.1 and Mailman 3 doesn't really allow
> for this to be done too easily. Messages are queued for delivery in a
> FIFO queue for the outgoing runner(s). Slicing the queue space into
> multiple ranges for multiple runners doesn't solve the problem as other
> messages in the range with the "big" message will still have to wait.

Yeah, exactly what I encountered.
 
> What could be done is to create multiple outgoing queues, say normal_out
> and big_out and then have separate instances of the outgoing runner
> processing the two queues. Then the handler that queues outgoing
> messages could decide which queue based on whatever criteria are desired.
> 
> This wouldn't make the "big" message wait until after the normal
> messages were all processed, but the "big" message would be processed by
> a separate process and the normal messages wouldn't have to wait for it
> to complete.

That's something!
 
> I don't think it would be too difficult to implement this, but my advice
> would be to use content filtering and maximum message size to prevent
> the problem which could have been easily avoided in this case by making
> the attachment web accessible and including only a link in the post.

Yes, *I* would have done this (especially since this allows to change
the PDF AFTER it had been sent...)

> Note that if your list owners don't understand the importance of maximum
> message size, there is for Mailman 2.1 an example handler that
> implements a global maximum at
> <https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/GlobalTooBig.py>.

Will look at this.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
https://www.charite.de             Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From roy.pangani at ubuntunet.net  Fri Oct 19 04:03:10 2018
From: roy.pangani at ubuntunet.net (Roy Pangani)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 10:03:10 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MIGRATING MAILMAN LISTS
Message-ID: <B9D7E9F2-CE2C-45ED-9CAF-0C6FDBA2C39C@ubuntunet.net>

I am new to this Mailman. I have just installed in mailman in docker containers. And I want to migrate lists from another server which doesn?t use docker.

Any ideas on how to do this best way?

Regards,

Roy

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct 19 13:01:09 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 10:01:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MIGRATING MAILMAN LISTS
In-Reply-To: <B9D7E9F2-CE2C-45ED-9CAF-0C6FDBA2C39C@ubuntunet.net>
References: <B9D7E9F2-CE2C-45ED-9CAF-0C6FDBA2C39C@ubuntunet.net>
Message-ID: <167ffaf6-8968-48f2-362e-0d171cae50b5@msapiro.net>

On 10/19/18 1:03 AM, Roy Pangani wrote:
> I am new to this Mailman. I have just installed in mailman in docker containers. And I want to migrate lists from another server which doesn?t use docker.


I'm guessing from the fact that you are using docker containers that
this is Mailman 3. The appropriate list for MM 3 is
mailman-users at mailman3.org
<https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users at mailman3.org/>.

That said, much of what needs to be migrated is in Mailman's database
and migration would be more of a database migration issue than a docker
vs. non-docker issue, but I don't think we have a documented process in
any case.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct 19 13:31:12 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 10:31:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Auto-populating lists from postfix
 virtual_aliases
In-Reply-To: <9a2f3afb-6d11-451b-ea99-01e06a32f7bf@3x5.co>
References: <9a2f3afb-6d11-451b-ea99-01e06a32f7bf@3x5.co>
Message-ID: <21740e13-a8f7-4dbd-7908-766bd8d8e3d1@msapiro.net>

On 10/17/18 12:21 PM, 3?5 wrote:
> 
> I know that it's possible to integrate Mailman with postfix, but I don't
> know if mailman can pull together lists in this way. Is it possible, or
> is mailman the wrong tool for this job?


Mailman is not able to directly use this kind of information from
Postfix to generate lists. While one can use Mailman as the engine to
send the mail, it is probably not the appropriate tool for that either.

Whether using Mailman or not, you would still need to generate the
recipient lists in some other way. For example, you could maintain a
file of addresses that have opted out. Then to do a mailing, read all
the virtual alias from Postfix's files, filter by domain if necessary
and drop addresses from the opt-out list to produce a recipient list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From david at midrange.com  Sat Oct 20 12:17:22 2018
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:17:22 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] reply_goes_to_list problem in 2.1.29
Message-ID: <pqfkag$fvl$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Folks:

I just upgraded from a REALLY old version of Mailman to 2.1.29 and have noticed 
a serious problem with reply_goes_to_list.

I have reply_goes_to_list set to 1, so a reply-to header is added to send 
replies back to the list.

This worked fine in the previous version that I was using (2.1.17 maybe).

However, when I post a message to my test list, the reply-to header isn't being 
added.

I'm not seeing any errors in the logs.

I've also set the value to 3 and set the list address as the explicit address 
and the reply-to header still isn't added.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

david

-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding 615 miles (Yes, you read that right) in the American Diabetes 
Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, 
advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax deductible donation to my ride by 
visiting https://gmane.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map 
... https://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From david at midrange.com  Sat Oct 20 12:24:23 2018
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:24:23 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] reply_goes_to_list problem in 2.1.29
In-Reply-To: <pqfkag$fvl$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <pqfkag$fvl$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <pqfknk$cfi$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 10/20/18 11:17 AM, David Gibbs wrote:
> I'm not seeing any errors in the logs.

Well, I did just see an error ... not specifically related to the reply-to issue 
... but probably related to another issue I'm seeing related to DMARC munging.

I have dmarc_moderation_action set to "munge from", but the from address isn't 
getting munged for domains that have dmarc=reject (like a yahoo or sbcgobal 
address).

The error I'm seeing is: Unable to retrieve data from 
https://publicsuffix.org/list/public_suffix_list.dat: <urlopen error (1, 
'error:14077410:SSL routines:SSL23_GET_SERVER_HELLO:sslv3 alert handshake failure')>

My Linux install is REALLY old ... so that might be related.  Any suggestions on 
a workaround?

Thanks!

david


-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding 615 miles (Yes, you read that right) in the American Diabetes 
Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, 
advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax deductible donation to my ride by 
visiting https://gmane.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map 
... https://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Oct 20 13:31:59 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 10:31:59 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] reply_goes_to_list problem in 2.1.29
In-Reply-To: <pqfkag$fvl$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <pqfkag$fvl$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <2e03c459-3246-2ad4-e94f-536bacc58e15@msapiro.net>

On 10/20/18 9:17 AM, David Gibbs wrote:
> 
> I have reply_goes_to_list set to 1, so a reply-to header is added to
> send replies back to the list.
> 
> This worked fine in the previous version that I was using (2.1.17 maybe).
> 
> However, when I post a message to my test list, the reply-to header
> isn't being added.


It should be, but this may be related to the "Unable to retrieve data
from https://publicsuffix.org/list/public_suffix_list.dat:" error, see
next reply.


> I've also set the value to 3 and set the list address as the explicit
> address and the reply-to header still isn't added.


The correct value for 'explicit address' is 2, not 3.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Oct 20 13:52:10 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 10:52:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] reply_goes_to_list problem in 2.1.29
In-Reply-To: <pqfknk$cfi$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <pqfkag$fvl$1@blaine.gmane.org> <pqfknk$cfi$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <ba18ee1d-8027-4364-e654-220d820f2df4@msapiro.net>

On 10/20/18 9:24 AM, David Gibbs wrote:
> On 10/20/18 11:17 AM, David Gibbs wrote:
>> I'm not seeing any errors in the logs.
> 
> Well, I did just see an error ... not specifically related to the
> reply-to issue ... but probably related to another issue I'm seeing
> related to DMARC munging.
> 
> I have dmarc_moderation_action set to "munge from", but the from address
> isn't getting munged for domains that have dmarc=reject (like a yahoo or
> sbcgobal address).
> 
> The error I'm seeing is: Unable to retrieve data from
> https://publicsuffix.org/list/public_suffix_list.dat: <urlopen error (1,
> 'error:14077410:SSL routines:SSL23_GET_SERVER_HELLO:sslv3 alert
> handshake failure')>
> 
> My Linux install is REALLY old ... so that might be related.? Any
> suggestions on a workaround?


You need to upgrade SSL on your server.

As far as the actual error is concerned, this shouldn't affect reply-to
munging. Also, it should only affect organizational domain processing.
What this means is, for example, for a domain like sub.yahoo.com, the
organizational domain is yahoo.com. This means that if sub.yahoo.com
doesn't publish a DMARC policy and mail is From: the sub.yahoo.com
domain we should look at the DMARC policy of the organizational domain,
yahoo.com.

The absence of the organizational domain data affects the lookup of
organizational domain, but is only an issue if the organizational domain
has more that two labels. I.e., this does not affect xxx.com, xxx.edu,
xxx.net, etc. type domains but does affect domains like xxx.co.uk and
many others.

Bottom line is I don't think this is affecting either your reply-to
munging or your DMARC mitigations. Is there anything about DMARC in
Mailman's vette log?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From david at midrange.com  Sat Oct 20 14:16:51 2018
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 13:16:51 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] reply_goes_to_list problem in 2.1.29
In-Reply-To: <ba18ee1d-8027-4364-e654-220d820f2df4@msapiro.net>
References: <pqfkag$fvl$1@blaine.gmane.org> <pqfknk$cfi$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <ba18ee1d-8027-4364-e654-220d820f2df4@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <pqfrah$kke$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 10/20/18 12:52 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>> The error I'm seeing is: Unable to retrieve data from
>> https://publicsuffix.org/list/public_suffix_list.dat: <urlopen error (1,
>> 'error:14077410:SSL routines:SSL23_GET_SERVER_HELLO:sslv3 alert
>> handshake failure')>
> 
> You need to upgrade SSL on your server.

Yeah, I know ... it's on the list.

> As far as the actual error is concerned, this shouldn't affect reply-to
> munging. Also, it should only affect organizational domain processing.

I suspect it is related, although I'm not sure how.  See below.;

> Bottom line is I don't think this is affecting either your reply-to
> munging or your DMARC mitigations. Is there anything about DMARC in
> Mailman's vette log?

There were log entries indicating that it had parsed the DMARC policy correctly 
(the address I was testing had p=quarantine).

As for the suffix file ...

I changed my mm_cfg.py file to reference a local file instead of a URL so it 
doesn't need SSL (I'll retrieve the file periodically) using a mechanism that works.

Once I had the file setup the reply-to munging works and so does the DMARC handling.

At least my test list is working. :)

david


-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding 615 miles (Yes, you read that right) in the American Diabetes 
Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, 
advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax deductible donation to my ride by 
visiting https://gmane.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map 
... https://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Oct 20 15:07:20 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:07:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] reply_goes_to_list problem in 2.1.29
In-Reply-To: <pqfrah$kke$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <pqfkag$fvl$1@blaine.gmane.org> <pqfknk$cfi$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <ba18ee1d-8027-4364-e654-220d820f2df4@msapiro.net>
 <pqfrah$kke$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <bffe38e2-1719-4876-fa79-b362400eea4d@msapiro.net>

On 10/20/18 11:16 AM, David Gibbs wrote:
> 
> As for the suffix file ...
> 
> I changed my mm_cfg.py file to reference a local file instead of a URL
> so it doesn't need SSL (I'll retrieve the file periodically) using a
> mechanism that works.
> 
> Once I had the file setup the reply-to munging works and so does the
> DMARC handling.


I'm not sure why not being able to access the file would cause the
issues you saw, but I'll do some testing.

As far as updating your local file is concerned, Mailman 2.1 only reads
the file once (Mailman 3 is different and re-reads it periodically) on
the first post following (re)start, so if the file actually changes, you
need to restart Mailman to pick up the changes. However, changes to that
list generally only affect domains that you probably don't see.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From david at midrange.com  Sat Oct 20 15:31:37 2018
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 14:31:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] reply_goes_to_list problem in 2.1.29
In-Reply-To: <bffe38e2-1719-4876-fa79-b362400eea4d@msapiro.net>
References: <pqfkag$fvl$1@blaine.gmane.org> <pqfknk$cfi$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <ba18ee1d-8027-4364-e654-220d820f2df4@msapiro.net>
 <pqfrah$kke$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <bffe38e2-1719-4876-fa79-b362400eea4d@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <pqfvmm$t9v$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 10/20/18 2:07 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> As far as updating your local file is concerned, Mailman 2.1 only reads
> the file once (Mailman 3 is different and re-reads it periodically) on
> the first post following (re)start, so if the file actually changes, you
> need to restart Mailman to pick up the changes. However, changes to that
> list generally only affect domains that you probably don't see.

Good to know ... thanks for your help.

david



-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding 615 miles (Yes, you read that right) in the American Diabetes 
Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, 
advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax deductible donation to my ride by 
visiting https://gmane.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map 
... https://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From mark at tafn.org.uk  Sat Oct 20 20:12:49 2018
From: mark at tafn.org.uk (Mark T)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 01:12:49 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] setting reply address
Message-ID: <42d0xn6GVszFqpC@mail.python.org>

Hi can anyone help please
I have a announce only list
What I am trying to do  is have it set so when you reply to the list  it will 
Go to a selected email address
I have set this but when I reply it goes to the selected email address also the announce list as well
Mark.
Tune in to the number one station on the web TAFN radio 
http://tafn.org.uk/listen
Or for our catch up service on demand http://www.tafn.org.uk/on-demand 
or for our upcoming weekly schedule 
http://www.tafn.org.uk/radio
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www.tafn.org.uk
Registered UK Charity: #1108043.
Sent from Windows 10 Mail.


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Oct 20 21:54:14 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 18:54:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] setting reply address
In-Reply-To: <42d0xn6GVszFqpC@mail.python.org>
References: <42d0xn6GVszFqpC@mail.python.org>
Message-ID: <06057c98-79f9-0042-f69c-ec7524be02e8@msapiro.net>

On 10/20/18 5:12 PM, Mark T wrote:
> Hi can anyone help please
> I have a announce only list
> What I am trying to do  is have it set so when you reply to the list  it will 
> Go to a selected email address
> I have set this but when I reply it goes to the selected email address also the announce list as well


If I understand correctly what your issue is, the bottom line is you
can't control this.

If you have configured your list with reply_goes_to_list = Explicit
address and reply_to_address = the address you want, say
user at example.com, then a post from the list will be sent out with the
headers

To: the list address
From: the original sender
Reply-To: user at example.com

The issue is that these are only 'suggestions' to the recipient's MUA
(mail client) as to what to do when the recipient says 'reply' or
'reply-all'. Most MUAs understand that Reply-To: takes precedence over
From: and will address a reply only to user at example.com, but not all do.

Also most will address a 'reply-all' to in this case user at example.com
and the list address but some will include the original sender in a
'reply-all'.	

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Oct 21 00:25:27 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 21:25:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] reply_goes_to_list problem in 2.1.29
In-Reply-To: <bffe38e2-1719-4876-fa79-b362400eea4d@msapiro.net>
References: <pqfkag$fvl$1@blaine.gmane.org> <pqfknk$cfi$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <ba18ee1d-8027-4364-e654-220d820f2df4@msapiro.net>
 <pqfrah$kke$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <bffe38e2-1719-4876-fa79-b362400eea4d@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <59495bc5-a31b-2d1e-7b31-a314f59ac4e9@msapiro.net>

On 10/20/18 12:07 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/20/18 11:16 AM, David Gibbs wrote:
>>
>> Once I had the file setup the reply-to munging works and so does the
>> DMARC handling.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure why not being able to access the file would cause the
> issues you saw, but I'll do some testing.


OK. I've done testing and looked carefully through the code. I set

DMARC_ORGANIZATIONAL_DOMAIN_DATA_URL = "http://msapiro.net/mailman/garbage"

in mm_cfg.py and then sent a test post From: mark_sapiro at zzz.yahoo.com
and got this in the error log

Oct 20 21:04:31 2018 (19289) Unable to retrieve data from
http://msapiro.net/mailman/garbage: HTTP Error 404: Not Found

and this in vette

Oct 20 21:04:31 2018 (19289) List1: DMARC lookup for
mark_sapiro at zzz.yahoo.com (_dmarc.yahoo.com) found p=reject in
_dmarc.yahoo.com. = v=DMARC1; p=reject; pct=100;
rua=mailto:dmarc_y_rua at yahoo.com;

and DMARC mitigations were applied. In particular, when you see a
message like that in the vette log, it means that Mailman's
IsDMARCProhibited() function has returned True meaning apply the DMARC
mitigations.

I don't see that it is possible to see that message in the vette log
without the mitigations being applied.

Further, if the From: domain itself publishes a DMARC policy, the code
that reads the organizational domain data isn't even executed (that's
why the domain is zzz.yahoo.com in my test).

Anyway, it's working for you now, and that's the important thing.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From geek at uniserve.com  Sun Oct 21 17:42:20 2018
From: geek at uniserve.com (Dave Stevens)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 14:42:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman architectural overview incomplete?
Message-ID: <20181021144220.2345c9be@user-Satellite-A100>

This document:

http://terri.zone12.com/doc/mailman/mailman-admin.pdf

describes on p. 4 the basics of incoming queue management. But it stops
with outgoing queue details absent. Is this written up somewhere?

Dave

-- 
In modern fantasy (literary or governmental), killing people is the
usual solution to the so-called war between good and evil. My books are
not conceived in terms of such a war, and offer no simple answers to
simplistic questions.

----- Ursula Le Guin

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Oct 21 20:53:21 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 17:53:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman architectural overview incomplete?
In-Reply-To: <20181021144220.2345c9be@user-Satellite-A100>
References: <20181021144220.2345c9be@user-Satellite-A100>
Message-ID: <c8c9cb60-4582-c560-cef6-29882cfefbda@msapiro.net>

On 10/21/18 2:42 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
> This document:
> 
> http://terri.zone12.com/doc/mailman/mailman-admin.pdf
> 
> describes on p. 4 the basics of incoming queue management. But it stops
> with outgoing queue details absent. Is this written up somewhere?


If you're talking about section 2.4, replace the sentence "Messages in
the incoming queue may also be stored for appending to digests." with
"Messages in the incoming queue are finally stored in the outgoing queue
for distribution to regular members and added to a digest.mbox for
eventual distribution to digest members."

There really isn't more to say at that level.

For more detail about how outgoing messages are handled, see
<https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/view/head:/Mailman/Queue/OutgoingRunner.py>
and
<https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/view/head:/Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From bernie at fantasyfarm.com  Mon Oct 22 07:20:18 2018
From: bernie at fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 07:20:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman generated email
Message-ID: <5BCDB272.8950.292AB533@bernie.fantasyfarm.com>

I'm corresponding with the sysops about those odd duplicated "pending 
moderator requests" messages and the sysops are claiming that mailman, itself, 
never sends messages, it only forwards them.   I know that's not true but I don't 
know enough about the mechanics of mailman to make a definitive reply.  His 
latest message

    With a discussion list, a message is not created by the list server.
    The list server accepts an email sent to the list address, which
    posts it for moderation approval, which then sends the email sent to
    that list to all subscribed users of that list. 

What's the definitive way to describe to him the [crontab?] mechanism that 
generates the overnight "pending moder requests" message that mailman 
generates.   He doesn't even understand that with the messages I forwarded to 
him for comparison were generated by mailman -- he just mentioned that each of 
the two pending requests was a real user-sent message [of course true] but 
doesn't see the forest [that that was mailman notification] for the trees [the two 
message currently pending].  ugh

 /bernie\

            Bernie Cosell
       bernie at fantasyfarm.com
-- Too many people; too few sheep --
   




From odhiambo at gmail.com  Mon Oct 22 09:41:18 2018
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 16:41:18 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM3 on FreeBSD
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WOzBM+hoUgnNyUsD93W-4rPMO0jatRPRV5k3X_UjKyL6A@mail.gmail.com>

Hola a todos!

I have finally read bits of documents here and there and managed to install
MM3 on a FreeBSD 11.2 server. This is for testing and getting to grasp the
new monster. Later, I hope I could run my MLs on MM3.

So, so far, this is what I have done - all successfully:

pkg install python36
pkg install py36-sqlite3
[ln -s /usr/local/bin/python3.6 /usr/local/bin/python3]
python3 -m ensurepip
pip3 install mailman

I have opted to use /opt/mailman3 as the directory for MM3.
So I did:

cd /opt
mkdir mailman3
cd mailman3
mailman info
[Here I got some errors, which Google led me to set some ENV variables]
export LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8
export LANG=en_US.UTF-8
mailman info

The directory has been populated with some data.

# Then from http://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/prodsetup.html
pip3 install postorius
pip3 install hyperkitty
pip3 install mailman-hyperkitty
pip3 install uwsgi

All those installed successfully. However, I am not sure where they
installed into on my FreeBSD, but I guess no es importa :)

What next now?? Edit the var/etc/mailman.cfg??

Then how to launch the MM3 queue runner? Postorius? HyperKitty? etc?


TIA


-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223
"Oh, the cruft."

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Oct 22 23:05:55 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 20:05:55 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman generated email
In-Reply-To: <5BCDB272.8950.292AB533@bernie.fantasyfarm.com>
References: <5BCDB272.8950.292AB533@bernie.fantasyfarm.com>
Message-ID: <fc8af137-f463-4700-b6e9-8fb3d0d4c4ba@msapiro.net>

On 10/22/18 4:20 AM, Bernie Cosell wrote:
> 
> What's the definitive way to describe to him the [crontab?] mechanism that 
> generates the overnight "pending moder requests" message that mailman 
> generates.   He doesn't even understand that with the messages I forwarded to 
> him for comparison were generated by mailman -- he just mentioned that each of 
> the two pending requests was a real user-sent message [of course true] but 
> doesn't see the forest [that that was mailman notification] for the trees [the two 
> message currently pending].  ugh


Trying to get this resolved is probably futile. Particularly if the host
is running cPanel. cPanel includes Mailman in their distribution and
while some cPanel hosts are very good at supporting Mailman, others only
offer Mailman because it comes with cPanel and know nothing about
Mailman and don't want to learn.

That said, you could try to explain to him that in addition to
forwarding posts to list members, Mailman generates several different
kinds of notices on its own. In particular, the "nn moderator requests
waiting" message is generated by Mailman's cron/checkdbs job which is
intended to be run by cron once daily, however in your case, it appears
that this job is being run twice, either by two separate crontabs or two
entries in one crontab.

Good luck.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From alain at eestec.ethz.ch  Tue Oct 23 08:29:31 2018
From: alain at eestec.ethz.ch (Alain Kohli)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:29:31 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rebuild mbox archives
Message-ID: <7eab7e3e-1929-0cf4-f5dc-fd644fc9cc7d@eestec.ethz.ch>

Hi,

We are using mailman 2.1 and are preparing to migrate to mailman 3. We 
would like to also move the archives and as far as I understand it from 
the migration guide, you need the mbox file for that. The problem is, 
that on our current server we are somewhat restricted regarding disk 
space, which is why we truncated some of the mbox archives. The non-mbox 
archives, the ones you access from the webinterface, however, are still 
intact. My question is, whether we can either recreate the mbox files or 
if we can migrate the archives without them. If I understand it 
correctly, we should be able to cat all the archive files together into 
a new mbox file, but I'm not sure if that will break something.

Regards,
Alain


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 24 10:55:35 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:55:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rebuild mbox archives
In-Reply-To: <7eab7e3e-1929-0cf4-f5dc-fd644fc9cc7d@eestec.ethz.ch>
References: <7eab7e3e-1929-0cf4-f5dc-fd644fc9cc7d@eestec.ethz.ch>
Message-ID: <28663bdc-1d2a-9a2d-302d-04f22b7a59cc@msapiro.net>

On 10/23/18 5:29 AM, Alain Kohli wrote:
> If I understand it
> correctly, we should be able to cat all the archive files together into
> a new mbox file, but I'm not sure if that will break something.


It will work, but you will lose some header information and possibly
scrubbed MIME parts, but the header info is lost anyway.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From list at ziobro.rochester.ny.us  Wed Oct 24 17:52:23 2018
From: list at ziobro.rochester.ny.us (Jim Ziobro)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 17:52:23 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mm-handler support
Message-ID: <74a45a61-c9bd-9519-1107-3f55a0ad60ef@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>

I used mm-handler to setup mailman here.? It is a wonderful piece of 
work!? Go Dave Champion (2006)!

There is a couple of simple things that need to be done:
 ??? - add the conversion to lowercase (solved over a decade ago!)
 ??? - handle POSTMASTER (RFC822)

I am a newbie to mailman but an old sendmail hand.? I'd be happy to make 
those changes.? Anyone else got comments about mm-handler?
Ciao,
//Z\\
Jim Ziobro

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct 25 11:22:48 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 08:22:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mm-handler support
In-Reply-To: <74a45a61-c9bd-9519-1107-3f55a0ad60ef@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
References: <74a45a61-c9bd-9519-1107-3f55a0ad60ef@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
Message-ID: <7982827d-cea2-6e52-370a-68f3a0eb7369@msapiro.net>

On 10/24/18 2:52 PM, Jim Ziobro wrote:
> I used mm-handler to setup mailman here.? It is a wonderful piece of
> work!? Go Dave Champion (2006)!
> 
> There is a couple of simple things that need to be done:
> ??? - add the conversion to lowercase (solved over a decade ago!)
> ??? - handle POSTMASTER (RFC822)
> 
> I am a newbie to mailman but an old sendmail hand.? I'd be happy to make
> those changes.? Anyone else got comments about mm-handler?


Please make whatever changes you feel are needed and post them here, and
I will include them in the next release.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Oct 25 13:00:21 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:00:21 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mm-handler support
In-Reply-To: <7982827d-cea2-6e52-370a-68f3a0eb7369@msapiro.net>
References: <74a45a61-c9bd-9519-1107-3f55a0ad60ef@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
 <7982827d-cea2-6e52-370a-68f3a0eb7369@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <79fec478-328b-ee31-5193-6d5f789bef40@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 10/25/2018 09:22 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Please make whatever changes you feel are needed and post them here, 
> and I will include them in the next release.

What is the authoritative version / source of mm-handler?

I've got three different versions:

  - 2.1.10
  - 5100
  - modified form of an unknown version

I made some changes years ago to have mm-handler return a properly 
formatted DSN.  But I don't know what version it was based on.  As such, 
I can't submit patches.

I'd be willing to make similar changes to current and submit them if 
you're interested.

In hindsight I'd like to also add the Auto-Submitted: auto-generated 
header to the DSN.  And make sure it uses the Null Reverse Path.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


From david at midrange.com  Thu Oct 25 15:03:48 2018
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 14:03:48 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error in pipermail
Message-ID: <pqt3uh$o0s$1@blaine.gmane.org>

I just upgraded from a pretty old version of MM to 2.1.29 and everything appears to be working OK.

I noticed the following in my error log though.

I only have a few lists that archive using the built in functionality.

Oct 24 07:57:40 2018 (18940) Uncaught runner exception: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xb5 in position 26: ordinal not in range(128)
Oct 24 07:57:40 2018 (18940) Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in _oneloop
     self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
     keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 77, in _dispose
     mlist.ArchiveMail(msg)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 216, in ArchiveMail
     h.processUnixMailbox(f)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 596, in processUnixMailbox
     self.add_article(a)
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 640, in add_article
     author = fixAuthor(article.decoded['author'])
   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 63, in fixAuthor
     while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xb5 in position 26: ordinal not in range(128)

Any suggestions on how to fix this?

david

-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding 615 miles (Yes, you read that right) in the American Diabetes Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax deductible donation to my ride by visiting https://gmane.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map ... https://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From david at midrange.com  Mon Oct 29 15:42:16 2018
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 14:42:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Reply-to header not set in mime encoded digest's
Message-ID: <pr7nmm$of5$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Folks:

On my lists, I have reply_goes_to_list set so users reply's default to the list 
address.

When MM 2.1.29 sends out a mime encoded digest, the individual messages in the 
digest don't have the reply-to header set so replies go back to the list (as 
with non-digest messages).

Is there any way to have the reply-to header set correctly on mime-digest messages?

Thanks!

david

-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding 615 miles (Yes, you read that right) in the American Diabetes 
Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, 
advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax deductible donation to my ride by 
visiting https://gmane.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map 
... https://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Oct 29 17:51:00 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 14:51:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Reply-to header not set in mime encoded digest's
In-Reply-To: <pr7nmm$of5$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <pr7nmm$of5$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <ac22048c-4d44-88d3-b1f8-fd7ab25a9152@msapiro.net>

On 10/29/18 12:42 PM, David Gibbs wrote:
> 
> When MM 2.1.29 sends out a mime encoded digest, the individual messages
> in the digest don't have the reply-to header set so replies go back to
> the list (as with non-digest messages).
> 
> Is there any way to have the reply-to header set correctly on
> mime-digest messages?


This is a consequence of the way in which DMARC mitigations are applied
to outgoing messages. The modifications to the From:, Reply-To: and Cc:
headers are not applied to the message that is archived, sent in digests
or gated to usenet.

This is generally a good thing, but is problematic in that non-DMARC
Reply-To: munging is also deferred.

A simple, but possibly unsatisfactory solution is to put the following
two lines in mm_cfg.py

GLOBAL_PIPELINE.remove('ToDigest')
GLOBAL_PIPELINE.insert(GLOBAL_PIPELINE.index('ToOutgoing'), 'ToDigest')

This will cause the message to not be added to the digests until after
the header munging has occurred, but also means any DMARC actions to
munge the From: or wrap the message will be applied to the digested
message which may be undesirable.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Oct 29 23:22:50 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 20:22:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mm-handler support
In-Reply-To: <79fec478-328b-ee31-5193-6d5f789bef40@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <74a45a61-c9bd-9519-1107-3f55a0ad60ef@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
 <7982827d-cea2-6e52-370a-68f3a0eb7369@msapiro.net>
 <79fec478-328b-ee31-5193-6d5f789bef40@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <8b40f070-c302-c7ce-6f02-e7b9ea1dde35@msapiro.net>

On 10/25/18 10:00 AM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> On 10/25/2018 09:22 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> Please make whatever changes you feel are needed and post them here,
>> and I will include them in the next release.
> 
> What is the authoritative version / source of mm-handler?


The most up to date version is
<https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/view/head:/contrib/mm-handler-2.1.10>.
For some info on the differences between this and the original
<https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/view/head:/contrib/mm-handler>,
see the thread beginning at
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2008-March/020008.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Oct 29 23:47:20 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 20:47:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error in pipermail
In-Reply-To: <pqt3uh$o0s$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <pqt3uh$o0s$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <952dc0ec-03b3-2443-2059-b811a3feeab9@msapiro.net>

On 10/25/18 12:03 PM, David Gibbs wrote:
> I just upgraded from a pretty old version of MM to 2.1.29 and everything
> appears to be working OK.
> 
> I noticed the following in my error log though.
> 
> I only have a few lists that archive using the built in functionality.
> 
> Oct 24 07:57:40 2018 (18940) Uncaught runner exception: 'ascii' codec
> can't decode byte 0xb5 in position 26: ordinal not in range(128)
> Oct 24 07:57:40 2018 (18940) Traceback (most recent call last):
> ? File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in _oneloop
> ??? self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
> ? File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
> ??? keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
> ? File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 77, in
> _dispose
> ??? mlist.ArchiveMail(msg)
> ? File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 216, in
> ArchiveMail
> ??? h.processUnixMailbox(f)
> ? File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 596, in
> processUnixMailbox
> ??? self.add_article(a)
> ? File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 640, in
> add_article
> ??? author = fixAuthor(article.decoded['author'])
> ? File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 63, in
> fixAuthor
> ??? while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
> UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xb5 in position 26:
> ordinal not in range(128)
> 
> Any suggestions on how to fix this?


There should be a 'SHUNTING: xxxx.pck' message immediately following the
above traceback. This points to an entry in Mailman' qfiles/shunt/
directory.

You can see the message by pointing Mailman's bin/show_qfiles at that
file. There is something bogus and/or non-ascii in that message's From:
header, possibly an RFC 2047 encoded word with the 'wrong' character set.

Please post the message or at least the headers of the message here, and
I will investigate further.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From david at midrange.com  Tue Oct 30 11:58:19 2018
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 10:58:19 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error in pipermail
In-Reply-To: <952dc0ec-03b3-2443-2059-b811a3feeab9@msapiro.net>
References: <pqt3uh$o0s$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <952dc0ec-03b3-2443-2059-b811a3feeab9@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <pr9uuo$rrj$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 10/29/18 10:47 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> You can see the message by pointing Mailman's bin/show_qfiles at that
> file. There is something bogus and/or non-ascii in that message's From:
> header, possibly an RFC 2047 encoded word with the 'wrong' character set.
> 
> Please post the message or at least the headers of the message here, and
> I will investigate further.

Here's the headers (slightly redacted for privacy)...

====================> 
1540592328.5818169+9355405b7c0fedaecdb985ef6cca70da23b3fb88.pck
Received: from atl4mhob13.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob13.registeredsite.com
	[209.17.115.51])
	by mail1.midrange.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id w9QMIZNH032270
	for <list at midrange.com>; Fri, 26 Oct 2018 17:18:41 -0500
	(envelope-from: user at example.com)
Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com
	(atl4qobmail02pod1.registeredsite.com [10.30.71.114])
	by atl4mhob13.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id
	w9QMIXdS009683
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256
	verify=FAIL)
	for <list at example.com>; Fri, 26 Oct 2018 18:18:33 -0400
Received: (qmail 4507 invoked by uid 0); 26 Oct 2018 22:18:33 -0000
X-TCPREMOTEIP: xxx
X-Authenticated-UID: user at example.com
Received: from unknown (HELO OPTX780A) (user at example.com@xxx)
	by 0 with ESMTPA; 26 Oct 2018 22:18:32 -0000
From: "username \(company\)" <user at example.com>
To: "'list'" <list at example.com>
References: 
<DM5PR22MB16577CE4BC25F9D3EEBE1F5AE3F70 at DM5PR22MB1657.namprd22.prod.outlook.com> 
<DM5PR22MB1657DD71CEAC4797DD0BEE66E3F00 at DM5PR22MB1657.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
	<BF912234F5E88F4EA9B267AEDD14D53B3A0423C0 at CORE-EXCHANGE.other.com>
In-Reply-To: <BF912234F5E88F4EA9B267AEDD14D53B3A0423C0 at CORE-EXCHANGE.example.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 17:18:37 -0500
Organization: company.
Message-ID: <003101d46d79$d7cb43c0$8761cb40$@example.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0
Thread-Index: AQHAVNlPdu6ULI5F0rro7GFJ9slJLQIXwy9qAX6wIRilPZZQ4A==
Content-Language: en-us
X-Greylist: IP, sender and recipient auto-whitelisted, not delayed by
	milter-greylist-4.6.2 (mail1.midrange.com [xxx]);
	Fri, 26 Oct 2018 17:18:41 -0500 (CDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.100.2 at mail1.midrange.com
X-Virus-Status: Clean
Subject: Re: *redacted*
X-BeenThere: list at example.com
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: listname <list.example.com.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.midrange.com/mailman/options/list>,
	<mailto:list-request at midrange.com?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.midrange.com/mailman/private/list/>
List-Post: <mailto:list at midrange.com>
List-Help: <mailto:list-request at midrange.com?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/list>,
	<mailto:listrequest at midrange.com?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 22:18:48 -0000
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 22:18:48 -0000
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-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding 615 miles (Yes, you read that right) in the American Diabetes 
Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, 
advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax deductible donation to my ride by 
visiting https://gmane.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map 
... https://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From david at midrange.com  Tue Oct 30 12:20:17 2018
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 11:20:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Reply-to header not set in mime encoded digest's
In-Reply-To: <ac22048c-4d44-88d3-b1f8-fd7ab25a9152@msapiro.net>
References: <pr7nmm$of5$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <ac22048c-4d44-88d3-b1f8-fd7ab25a9152@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <pra07u$30r$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 10/29/18 4:51 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> A simple, but possibly unsatisfactory solution is to put the following
> two lines in mm_cfg.py
> 
> GLOBAL_PIPELINE.remove('ToDigest')
> GLOBAL_PIPELINE.insert(GLOBAL_PIPELINE.index('ToOutgoing'), 'ToDigest')
> 
> This will cause the message to not be added to the digests until after
> the header munging has occurred, but also means any DMARC actions to
> munge the From: or wrap the message will be applied to the digested
> message which may be undesirable.

Actually, this solution looks pretty good.

I've implemented it and am currently testing.

I think I owe a contribution to your beer fund. :)

david


-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding 615 miles (Yes, you read that right) in the American Diabetes 
Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, 
advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax deductible donation to my ride by 
visiting https://gmane.diabetessucks.net.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map 
... https://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct 30 12:41:18 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 09:41:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error in pipermail
In-Reply-To: <pr9uuo$rrj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <pqt3uh$o0s$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <952dc0ec-03b3-2443-2059-b811a3feeab9@msapiro.net>
 <pr9uuo$rrj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <eae50943-81df-79eb-4b42-309045ef34fd@msapiro.net>

On 10/30/18 8:58 AM, David Gibbs wrote:
> On 10/29/18 10:47 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> You can see the message by pointing Mailman's bin/show_qfiles at that
>> file. There is something bogus and/or non-ascii in that message's From:
>> header, possibly an RFC 2047 encoded word with the 'wrong' character set.
>>
>> Please post the message or at least the headers of the message here, and
>> I will investigate further.
> 
> Here's the headers (slightly redacted for privacy)...
> 
> ====================>
...
> From: "username \(company\)" <user at example.com>


This is the one I need to see in order to reproduce the issue. If you
don't want to post it to the list unredacted, please send it to me off list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From list at ziobro.rochester.ny.us  Wed Oct 31 10:41:28 2018
From: list at ziobro.rochester.ny.us (Jim Ziobro)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 10:41:28 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mm-handler starting version
In-Reply-To: <8b40f070-c302-c7ce-6f02-e7b9ea1dde35@msapiro.net>
References: <74a45a61-c9bd-9519-1107-3f55a0ad60ef@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
 <7982827d-cea2-6e52-370a-68f3a0eb7369@msapiro.net>
 <79fec478-328b-ee31-5193-6d5f789bef40@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8b40f070-c302-c7ce-6f02-e7b9ea1dde35@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <e08370a3-5882-0f5a-2d48-5525619575a4@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>

On 10/29/2018 11:22 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/25/18 10:00 AM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> What is the authoritative version / source of mm-handler?

I am starting from the contrib directory file named:
 ??? mm-handler-2.1.10
inside is line:
 ??? $VERSION = '$Id: mm-handler 2.1.10 2008-04-14 00:00:00 $';

My goals:

  * patch upper/lowercase issue solved a decade ago
  * allow mail to POSTMASTER at list.example.com to forward to the
    machine's postmaster.?? This fix allows arbitrary personal aliases.?
    (Support RFC-2142)

One other feature that I'd like is to optionally save *all* bounce 
messages.? This is valuable for initial list creation.? Is that feature 
available elsewhere in mailman?

Thanks,
//Z\\
Jim Ziobro

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Wed Oct 31 17:06:43 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 15:06:43 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mm-handler support
In-Reply-To: <8b40f070-c302-c7ce-6f02-e7b9ea1dde35@msapiro.net>
References: <74a45a61-c9bd-9519-1107-3f55a0ad60ef@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
 <7982827d-cea2-6e52-370a-68f3a0eb7369@msapiro.net>
 <79fec478-328b-ee31-5193-6d5f789bef40@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8b40f070-c302-c7ce-6f02-e7b9ea1dde35@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <209f915d-07d9-3175-aa45-c93f347c2be2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 10/29/2018 09:22 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> The most up to date version is 
> <https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/view/head:/contrib/mm-handler-2.1.10>.
> For some info on the differences between this and the original 
> <https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/view/head:/contrib/mm-handler>,
> see the thread beginning at 
> <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2008-March/020008.html>.

Thank you for the links Mark.

It looks like mine is based off of the original (or a close variant 
there of).

The version I'm running:

    $VERSION = '$Id: mm-handler,v 1.2 2002/04/05 19:41:09 bwarsaw Exp $';

mm-handler-5100:

    $VERSION = '$Id: mm-handler 5100 2002-04-05 19:41:09Z bwarsaw $';

It looks like the changes consisted of the following:

  - Changing how the sendmail binary is called ($SENDMAIL) to pass 
different options:
     - Change the ErrorMode from m (mail back) to q (return code)
     - Change the from to be the null reverse path.
     - Set to never return a DSN.
     - Sets outgoing DNS parameter to only return headers.
     - Sets an outgoing envelope ID.
  - I extensively re-wrote / re-factored what was a simple multi-line 
print to use MIME:: modules to build a proper DNS with all three 
sections.  (The last section is just the headers b/c of the outgoing 
SMTP parameter.)
  - I tweaked the ADDR: label to return an SMTP error (553 5.1.1 
<$list\@$server>...) error message.

Let me know if you'd like me to port these changes to mm-handler-2.1.10.

I may do this anyway to be running a newer mm-handler*.

Aside:  I've often contemplated a milter that could hook into the Python 
pickles to optionally reject messages at SMTP time if a non-subscriber 
tries to send an email to a list.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 31 22:14:01 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 19:14:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mm-handler support
In-Reply-To: <209f915d-07d9-3175-aa45-c93f347c2be2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <74a45a61-c9bd-9519-1107-3f55a0ad60ef@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
 <7982827d-cea2-6e52-370a-68f3a0eb7369@msapiro.net>
 <79fec478-328b-ee31-5193-6d5f789bef40@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8b40f070-c302-c7ce-6f02-e7b9ea1dde35@msapiro.net>
 <209f915d-07d9-3175-aa45-c93f347c2be2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <e9babf3e-ecc7-2e1e-cd29-854270f31de3@msapiro.net>

On 10/31/18 2:06 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> Let me know if you'd like me to port these changes to mm-handler-2.1.10.
> 
> I may do this anyway to be running a newer mm-handler*.


I think that would be good.


> Aside:? I've often contemplated a milter that could hook into the Python
> pickles to optionally reject messages at SMTP time if a non-subscriber
> tries to send an email to a list.


See <http://ftp.tummy.com/pub/tummy/tummailmanmember/tummailmanmember>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 31 22:20:07 2018
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 19:20:07 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mm-handler starting version
In-Reply-To: <e08370a3-5882-0f5a-2d48-5525619575a4@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
References: <74a45a61-c9bd-9519-1107-3f55a0ad60ef@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
 <7982827d-cea2-6e52-370a-68f3a0eb7369@msapiro.net>
 <79fec478-328b-ee31-5193-6d5f789bef40@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <8b40f070-c302-c7ce-6f02-e7b9ea1dde35@msapiro.net>
 <e08370a3-5882-0f5a-2d48-5525619575a4@ziobro.rochester.ny.us>
Message-ID: <b705de53-e9ca-24ae-22a8-905ddf211cac@msapiro.net>

On 10/31/18 7:41 AM, Jim Ziobro wrote:
> 
> One other feature that I'd like is to optionally save *all* bounce
> messages.? This is valuable for initial list creation.? Is that feature
> available elsewhere in mailman?


It depends what you mean by "bounce messages". If you mean actual DSNs
returned to the list-bounces address, you can do that in the MTA. If you
also want to include bounces generated by the OutgoingRunner when there
is an smtp failure on delivery from Mailman to the outgoing MTA, that is
more difficult, but they are all logged in Mailman's smtp-failure log.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan