From willi.uebelherr at gmail.com  Wed Mar  1 14:44:52 2017
From: willi.uebelherr at gmail.com (willi uebelherr)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 16:44:52 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Re: Mailing list membership.
In-Reply-To: <6f8f6012-c393-e3d7-f3bc-2d70ef5fe217@riseup.net>
References: <6f8f6012-c393-e3d7-f3bc-2d70ef5fe217@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <6832cca9-621f-a4c7-f53c-1acd7d80e4db@gmail.com>


Dear friends of Mailman,

in the IETF discussion list we have a discussion about the bounces, that 
are created based on the DMARC processing.

I know, from a discussion in this mailman list, that mailman follow 
strong the RFC 2821 (SMTP) and reject this DMARC nonsense.

I send you my answer to Theodore and Khaled in the IETF discussion list 
for verify. I have not so much experience with that. But i know from 
many mailman lists that they have always this bounce-errors.

The consequence should be, that the members in the list should change 
her mailbox servers to avoid this "bounce errors", based on DMARC 
processing, or not?

For me, i don't like any form of work arounds. We need a clear base. And 
this can only be the standard RFCs.

What you think about?

many greetings, willi


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Re: Mailing list membership.
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 16:29:01 -0300
From: willi uebelherr <willi.uebelherr at riseup.net>
To: IETF discussion <ietf at ietf.org>

Dear Theodore, many thanks for your explanation to the RFC 2821 (SMTP). 
The answer from Khaled i have included, because it goes to me as a 
private message.

Maybe, based on my bad english, i feel some confusion with the terms.

1) Khaled, like i and you, is member of the IETF discussion list. This 
means, he receive all emails that are distributed over the list.

2) Khaled, like i and you, use the maillist server mailman from IETF 
discussion list to distribute his messages to all members in the list.

3) The IETF discussion list don't follow the DMARC processing. This 
means, it act only outside.

4) Khaled, like i and you, use a mail box server system as the 
interconnection point to the list. Khaled use hotmail, you use mit.edu, 
i use riseup.net.

This means, the actors are the mailbox servers with the mailman maillist 
server IETF discuss in both direction.

I understand and agree absolutly, that the maillist server never change 
the From-line in the header. He create the Return-Path-line and/or 
Error-To-line for error response from the receiver mailbox server 
system. The bounce-information.

The mailman maillist server use bounce-counters for every member and 
some limits for this bounce-counter. If the limit exceeds, and the 
admin-group do nothing, then the maillist server mailman disable the 
delivery. It is not an unsubscription.

The admin-group have to follow the incremental increase of the 
bounce-counters to understand, what is the background. Maybe, the 
mailbox is full, or don't exist or is the result of this stupid DMARC 
processing.

The DMARC processing is defined in the DNS info. But we can ignore it, 
or not? The admin-group can inform the member to change her mailbox 
server to "avoid more errors" like Khaled wrote. The IETF discussion 
admin-group can only inform about the error sources. The members have to 
change her mailbox servers, or not?

Based on that process, we can clean all this nonsense in our IETF lists 
environment and work strong based on the RFC 2821, like mailman do it.

What do you think about?

many greetings, willi


On 01/03/2017 07:50, Khaled Omar wrote:
> Hi Willi,
>
>> Mailman never change the "From"-header. Therefore, the From-Header
always points to the author of the email. What you think, is that the 
correct, compatible way? I think, yes.
>
> Such case is out of our hands, other e-mail service providers are
welcome to be used just if this will add a value and avoid more errors.
>
> Best Regards,
> Khaled

On 01/03/2017 01:49, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 05:29:24PM -0300, willi uebelherr wrote:
>>
>> related to the problem, what Khaled explained, what is your proposal?
>>
>> What are your "compatible with internet mailing lists" mail systems?
>
> RFC 2821, Simple Mail Transfer Protocol, section 3.10.2
>
>    "To expand a list, the recipient mailer replaces the
>    pseudo-mailbox address in the envelope with all of the expanded
>    addresses.  The return address in the envelope is changed so that all
>    error messages generated by the final deliveries will be returned to
>    a list administrator, not to the message originator, who generally
>    has no control over the contents of the list and will typically find
>    error messages annoying."
>
> This is the SMTP Envelope From field.  The FROM field is not changed,
> but the SMTP return address is changed, so that bounces go to the
> mailing list administrator as opposed to the person who sends mail to
> the mailing list.
>
> Unfortunately, if you are using a system whose domain requests that
> all recipients enforce DMARC alignment, this specifically instructs
> recipients to bounce mail if the SMTP Envelope return address doesn't
> match the FROM field in the header.  This means that they won't see
> mailing list mail as defined by the IETF Standards Track RFC 2821,
> which specifically says that is acceptable (and in fact a good thing)
> to change the SMTP envelope return address so that bounces (caused by
> people changing where they work, etc.) go to an administrator who can
> deal with them.  But if the mailing list administrators gets too may
> bounces, and it's because the sending domain is requesting that mail
> be bounced, the only thing they can do is to unsubscribe the sender or
> the recipient.
>
> Hence mailing list systems that enforce DMARC, or request DMARC
> processing, are fundamentally incompatible with mailing lists as
> defined by section 3.10.2 of RFC 2821.
>
> If you want to participate in such mailing list, one of the best ways
> is to change to a mailing list system that doesn't do DMARC.
>
> Best regards,
> -Ted

From jimpop at gmail.com  Wed Mar  1 19:06:43 2017
From: jimpop at gmail.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 19:06:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: Re: Mailing list membership.
In-Reply-To: <6832cca9-621f-a4c7-f53c-1acd7d80e4db@gmail.com>
References: <6f8f6012-c393-e3d7-f3bc-2d70ef5fe217@riseup.net>
 <6832cca9-621f-a4c7-f53c-1acd7d80e4db@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGfsgR0bCWOr7_fY6ZEVLkvcwV3nf+xTGYvjWd02ryBJtM0FGA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 2:44 PM, willi uebelherr
<willi.uebelherr at gmail.com> wrote:
> What you think about?

IETF is running Mailman v2.1.17, I think you need to upgrade and take
advantage of the DMARC processing in newer versions of Mailman.

-Jim P.

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Thu Mar  2 04:38:30 2017
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 18:38:30 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Fwd: Re: Mailing list membership.
In-Reply-To: <6832cca9-621f-a4c7-f53c-1acd7d80e4db@gmail.com>
References: <6f8f6012-c393-e3d7-f3bc-2d70ef5fe217@riseup.net>
 <6832cca9-621f-a4c7-f53c-1acd7d80e4db@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22711.59414.243751.688266@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

willi uebelherr writes:

 > Dear friends of Mailman,

Thanks for getting in touch!

 > in the IETF discussion list we have a discussion about the bounces, that 
 > are created based on the DMARC processing.
 > 
 > I know, from a discussion in this mailman list, that mailman follow 
 > strong the RFC 2821 (SMTP) and reject this DMARC nonsense.

RFC 2821 has little practical significance for DMARC.  DMARC
processing itself has very little to do with SMTP (except for the
indirect relation through SPF -- more about that below).  I have all
the respect in the world for Ted T'so, but he seems to be not very
familiar with DMARC, DKIM, and SPF.

Mailman can not and does not "reject" DMARC in any way (although some
Mailman developers are pretty unhappy about it ;-).  DMARC is a fact
of life for mailing lists now.

First, the good news:
I (as a representative of the GNU Mailman project, as well as for
personal interest) have been participating in the DMARC discussions as
well as in development of the new "Authenticated Received Chain" (ARC)
protocol.  ARC allows an intermediate site to cryptographically sign
its authentication results, which (we hope) will allow end receivers
to trust those for DMARC purposes.  However widespread implementation
is at least a year off (theoretically possible as the DMARC
Consortium, Google, Yahoo!, and AOL are all participating in ARC
discussions, but you know how the Internet moves).

Mailman 3 itself will be ARC-capable in limited ways in that time
frame, and we expect Postfix, Exim, and Sendmail to implement it as
well.  (The "big guys" use MTAs developed in-house.)

Now, the bad news.

 > The consequence should be, that the members in the list should change 
 > her mailbox servers to avoid this "bounce errors", based on DMARC 
 > processing, or not?

>From the list owner's point of view, "it would be nice if" posters
would post from DMARC "p=none" domains.  ("p=none" includes sites
which have no DMARC DNS record at all; it is the implicit default that
DMARC receivers must assume.)  However, in the great majority of
cases, users get very upset about being asked to use "p=none"
mailboxes if that means changing their workflows.  IETF mailing lists
*may* be an exception, but I suspect there are a lot of people using
Yahoo! and other DMARC-protected addresses in the IETF subscriber base.

 > For me, i don't like any form of work arounds. We need a clear
 > base. And this can only be the standard RFCs.

Unfortunately, there are no RFCs that help here.  DMARC is *intended*
to prevent "unwanted" indirect mail flows, and unfortunately the
heuristic chosen also will interdict mailing lists.  What the DMARC
RFC *should* say is "if your mailbox provider posts a DMARC policy
other than 'p=none', that is automatically a policy of prohibiting
posting to mailing lists".  And that is precisely why the DMARC RFC is
"Informative", rather than "Standards Track", as you would expect with
an RFC with so much promise for reducing phishing and other mail
abuse.  The DMARC Consortium really wanted to avoid any language that
would implicate DMARC users is negative effects of the standard, and
an informative RFC allowed the Consortium members to retain control.

The only RFC-conforming option that allows you to avoid triggering
DMARC backscatter is to turn off ALL message-modifying options:
subject tags and serial numbers, and body headers and footers.  (I
believe that is currently the complete list of Mailman features that
invalidate common DKIM signatures.)

Other than that, your choice is to turn your "p!=none" posters into
backscatter bombs, or use of one of the options that Mailman provides
to avoid triggering DMARC.  There are more, and more attractive,
options in the most recent Mailman 2 versions (at least 2.1.20), as
Jim Popovich mentioned.

I hope this helps.

Below some comments on technical aspects of the appended
correspondence.


 > 3) The IETF discussion list don't follow the DMARC processing. This 
 > means, it act only outside.

DMARC processing, by which I mean the protocols defined in RFC 7489,
is in no way done by mailing lists.  Anything that a mailing list or
its MTA does to handle DMARC is a "workaround".  (This will change
with ARC, but ARC will provide no guarantees -- use of ARC is entirely
optional for the receivers.)

 > I understand and agree absolutly, that the maillist server never change 
 > the From-line in the header.

Changing the From field in the RFC 2822 header is the most popular
workaround by far.  This is not a denial of your position, it's a
statement of current common practice.

 > The mailman maillist server use bounce-counters for every member and 
 > some limits for this bounce-counter. If the limit exceeds, and the 
 > admin-group do nothing, then the maillist server mailman disable the 
 > delivery. It is not an unsubscription.

Under some setting of the bounce processing in Mailman, it *can*
result in unsubscription.

 > The DMARC processing is defined in the DNS info. But we can ignore it, 
 > or not?

If you ignore it, your list(s) will be subject to adverse consequences
based on DMARC processing at poster and subscriber addresses.  That's
your choice, of course.

 > Based on that process, we can clean all this nonsense in our IETF
 > lists environment and work strong based on the RFC 2821, like
 > mailman do it.

As Jim Popovich mentioned, the IETF lists are handled by GNU Mailman.
According to the most recent message I received it is Mailman 2.1.18.

Ted T'so writes:

 > > RFC 2821, Simple Mail Transfer Protocol, section 3.10.2
 > >
 > >    "To expand a list, the recipient mailer replaces the
 > >    pseudo-mailbox address in the envelope with all of the expanded
 > >    addresses.  The return address in the envelope is changed so that all
 > >    error messages generated by the final deliveries will be returned to
 > >    a list administrator, not to the message originator, who generally
 > >    has no control over the contents of the list and will typically find
 > >    error messages annoying."
 > >
 > > This is the SMTP Envelope From field.  The FROM field is not changed,
 > > but the SMTP return address is changed, so that bounces go to the
 > > mailing list administrator as opposed to the person who sends mail to
 > > the mailing list.

This is true, but it is not part of the definition of mailing list,
nor is there any popular mailing list software left that doesn't give
you the option of fiddling with the FROM field (for several reasons
such as anonymization, as well as working around DMARC).

 > > Unfortunately, if you are using a system whose domain requests that
 > > all recipients enforce DMARC alignment, this specifically instructs
 > > recipients to bounce mail if the SMTP Envelope return address doesn't
 > > match the FROM field in the header.

This is a misunderstanding of the DMARC protocol.  I won't go into
details, but in practice the vast majority of originating domains use
DKIM as well as, or instead of, SPF.[1]  In the case of DKIM
verification, the authorizing domain is the one claimed in the
DKIM-Signature field, not the Envelope From.

 > > Hence mailing list systems that enforce DMARC, or request DMARC
 > > processing, are fundamentally incompatible with mailing lists as
 > > defined by section 3.10.2 of RFC 2821.

This is false.  In practice, a mailing list that does not alter the
From, Subject, Date, and Message-ID header fields and does not alter
the body is compatible with DMARC originators which provide DKIM
signatures.  That's pretty much all of them, as mentioned above.

As I mention above, Mailman can be configured that way, but it rarely
is.  A few list-owners run into legal issues where the list must
provide visible legal disclaimers or unsubscription instructions,
which typically occur in footers appended to the message body,
invalidating the DKIM signature.  I doubt such a legal requirement
applies to the IETF lists, however.

Hope this helps.

Steve


Footnotes: 
[1]  According to a source at DMARC Consortium, their analysis
shows that nearly 100% (I forget the exact figure) of p=reject
traffic is DKIM-signed.  Of course that's heavily weighted by Yahoo!
and AOL, the two biggest sources of p=reject traffic.

-- 
Associate Professor              Division of Policy and Planning Science
http://turnbull/sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/     Faculty of Systems and Information
Email: turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp                   University of Tsukuba
Tel: 029-853-5175                 Tennodai 1-1-1, Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN

From sjones at scisat.ca  Mon Mar  6 10:15:25 2017
From: sjones at scisat.ca (Scott Jones)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 10:15:25 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unable to send emails with mailman/postfix
Message-ID: <CAE=bQ56L5+CwznR=W49vLW1_cdmonjiP4eLDuT6wyfcnBJP-Mw@mail.gmail.com>

Mailman version: 2.1.20
OS version (virtual): Ubuntu LTS 16.04.2


Hi,

I've set up a mailman client on a virtual server that I am able to connect
to from the outside world. I see all of my mailing lists and have followed
this document:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Mailman

when configuring. However, none of my test messages are being sent. I do
not see anything in the mail logs and further, when I send a message using
'mail -s' it works perfectly. I eventually get a

"The recipient server did not accept our requests to connect"

receipt from Google. Any suggestions as to what to try next?


Thanks,

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar  6 13:12:18 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 10:12:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unable to send emails with mailman/postfix
In-Reply-To: <CAE=bQ56L5+CwznR=W49vLW1_cdmonjiP4eLDuT6wyfcnBJP-Mw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE=bQ56L5+CwznR=W49vLW1_cdmonjiP4eLDuT6wyfcnBJP-Mw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30d6d4e6-a8cd-5678-e9b5-13f38db4d7cc@msapiro.net>

On 03/06/2017 07:15 AM, Scott Jones wrote:
> 
> I've set up a mailman client on a virtual server that I am able to connect
> to from the outside world. I see all of my mailing lists and have followed
> this document:
> 
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Mailman
> 
> when configuring.


See <https://wiki.list.org/x/12812344>.


> However, none of my test messages are being sent. I do
> not see anything in the mail logs and further, when I send a message using
> 'mail -s' it works perfectly. I eventually get a
> 
> "The recipient server did not accept our requests to connect"
> 
> receipt from Google. Any suggestions as to what to try next?


Why is Google involved? Is your virtual server hosted by Google?

If there is nothing at all relevant in /var/log/mail.log, Mailman is not
connecting to Postfix on the virtual machine. What are the settings in
mm_cfg.py if any or Defaults.py for SMTPHOST and SMTPPORT.

What is in Mailman's logs? Particularly 'smtp', 'smtp-failure' and 'error'?

Is Mailman even running?

See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030723>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar  6 14:06:57 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 11:06:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unable to send emails with mailman/postfix
In-Reply-To: <CAE=bQ55k7fWTX+-2=hCduh+cHCpj2UHUg_X0Tsi5Df5mc5L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE=bQ56L5+CwznR=W49vLW1_cdmonjiP4eLDuT6wyfcnBJP-Mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <30d6d4e6-a8cd-5678-e9b5-13f38db4d7cc@msapiro.net>
 <CAE=bQ55k7fWTX+-2=hCduh+cHCpj2UHUg_X0Tsi5Df5mc5L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <552174df-6603-a180-aa80-570ee94e27e2@msapiro.net>

On 03/06/2017 10:33 AM, Scott Jones wrote:
> 
> The Google message is just the bounce back I receive informing me that
> the message could not be delivered. It seemed to be pointing me toward
> an smtp problem. The virtual server itself is just on a Ubuntu machine. 
> 
> I don't see anything in any of the logs you mention, so it seems you're
> right that mailman and postfix are not talking. When I sign up for a new
> list, I do get the confirmation email from mailman, so yes it is running. 


So your issue is that mail sent to Mailman is not delivered to Mailman.
I.e. the non-delivery notice you receive is about the message you sent
to Mailman and mail from Mailman, e.g., confirmations, is delivered.

This is actually not surprising as the
<https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Mailman> document you followed is
totally f****d when it comes to setting up delivery from Postfix to Mailman.

It conflates delivery via aliases with delivery via the unsupported,
3rd-party postfix_to_mailman.py script.

See <https://wiki.list.org/x/15564817>, and decide which delivery method
you want to use, and if you still have issues, we will try to help, but
be aware that we are much happier supporting the standard delivery via
aliases rather than postfix_to_mailman.py.

Also:
1) Please keep this on the list.
2) If you have further DSNs from google regarding delivery to a list,
the actual content of the DSN would be helpful.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From greg at headingup.net  Mon Mar  6 14:43:19 2017
From: greg at headingup.net (Greg Sims)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 11:43:19 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] add_virtualhost with single argument
Message-ID: <CAOXbGWFBQkW3rqYMBXsZ6EXSLeZ+gzwejT+0UaJ6BxuFvA97og@mail.gmail.com>

I completed a migration to a new server over the weekend.  We were able to
send all the needed email this morning so the basics are in place.

I reviewed mm_cfg.py in the migration process.  I found some
add_virtualhost statements that I am not sure do anything.  I would like to
delete them if this is the case.  Here is one of them:

add_virtualhost('lists.raystedman.org')

It appears that mailman needs to understand the mappings between url and
email per:

# "add_virtualhost(urlfqdn, emailfqdn)" to add new mappings.

What does having an add_virtualhost with only one parameter mean to
mailman?  What would happen if I were to delete the add_virtualhost above?

Trying to clean things up along the way.

Thanks, Greg

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar  6 14:55:54 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 11:55:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unable to send emails with mailman/postfix
In-Reply-To: <CAE=bQ55dCuACEksCWyf3NtVuGOJa3ykQdiRDjdOAftddhFubfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE=bQ56L5+CwznR=W49vLW1_cdmonjiP4eLDuT6wyfcnBJP-Mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <30d6d4e6-a8cd-5678-e9b5-13f38db4d7cc@msapiro.net>
 <CAE=bQ55k7fWTX+-2=hCduh+cHCpj2UHUg_X0Tsi5Df5mc5L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <552174df-6603-a180-aa80-570ee94e27e2@msapiro.net>
 <CAE=bQ55dCuACEksCWyf3NtVuGOJa3ykQdiRDjdOAftddhFubfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01476556-fd23-7d3e-0eac-be885f507250@msapiro.net>

On 03/06/2017 11:39 AM, Scott Jones wrote:
> 
> I have followed the integration methods you've pointed me towards. The
> only thing I found was that I did not have a 'mailman' user installed
> along with my mailman installation for changing the ownership of the
> 'aliases' files. 
> 
> I've just received another DSN. The contents are:
> 
> 
> 
> The response from the remote server was:
> 
> The recipient server did not accept our requests to connect. Learn more
> at https://support.google.com/mail/answer/7720
> <https://support.google.com/mail/answer/7720> [[server FQDN] [IP]: timed
> out]
> 
> 
> Final-Recipient: rfc822; [mail list address]
> Action: failed
> Status: 4.4.1
> Diagnostic-Code: smtp; The recipient server did not accept our requests
> to connect. Learn more at https://support.google.com/mail/answer/7720
> <https://support.google.com/mail/answer/7720>
>  [[server FQDN] [IP]: timed out]
> Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 11:31:34 -0800 (PST)

Assuming Postfix is running and listening

sudo netstat -ltnp|grep master

should show things like

tcp        0      0 0.0.0.0:25              0.0.0.0:*
LISTEN      2781/master

and maybe

tcp6       0      0 :::25                   :::*
LISTEN      2781/master


If that's the case, this appears to be a firewall issue. You are not
able to access port 25 on the server from outside. What do you get if
from outside the server you do

telnet [server FQDN] 25

If you get an immediate connection refused, either Postfix isn't
listening or the firewall is rejecting port 25 connects. More likely,
and consistent with your DSN, you get a timeout which means the firewall
is dropping packets to port 25.

(Please reply-all to keep this on the list.)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar  6 15:08:17 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 12:08:17 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] add_virtualhost with single argument
In-Reply-To: <CAOXbGWFBQkW3rqYMBXsZ6EXSLeZ+gzwejT+0UaJ6BxuFvA97og@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOXbGWFBQkW3rqYMBXsZ6EXSLeZ+gzwejT+0UaJ6BxuFvA97og@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5b7e637f-743d-db64-c7cc-1b1cd368f0ec@msapiro.net>

On 03/06/2017 11:43 AM, Greg Sims wrote:
> 
> I reviewed mm_cfg.py in the migration process.  I found some
> add_virtualhost statements that I am not sure do anything.  I would like to
> delete them if this is the case.  Here is one of them:
> 
> add_virtualhost('lists.raystedman.org')
> 
> It appears that mailman needs to understand the mappings between url and
> email per:
> 
> # "add_virtualhost(urlfqdn, emailfqdn)" to add new mappings.
> 
> What does having an add_virtualhost with only one parameter mean to
> mailman?  What would happen if I were to delete the add_virtualhost above?


 From Mailman/Defaults.py

> # Helper function; use this in your mm_cfg.py files.  If optional emailhost is
> # omitted it defaults to urlhost with the first name stripped off, e.g.
> #
> # add_virtualhost('www.dom.ain')
> # VIRTUAL_HOST['www.dom.ain']
> # ==> 'dom.ain'


In particular, this means that

add_virtualhost('lists.raystedman.org')

has exactly the same effect as

add_virtualhost('lists.raystedman.org', 'raystedman.org')

Also note that add_virtualhost(urlfqdn, emailfqdn) creates a mapping in
the VIRTUAL_HOSTS dictionary from urlfqdn to emailfqdn. Thus if you have
more that one add_virtualhost with the same urlfqdn, whether or not a
second argument is provided, only the last one is effective.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From sjones at scisat.ca  Mon Mar  6 16:01:30 2017
From: sjones at scisat.ca (Scott Jones)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 16:01:30 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unable to send emails with mailman/postfix
In-Reply-To: <01476556-fd23-7d3e-0eac-be885f507250@msapiro.net>
References: <CAE=bQ56L5+CwznR=W49vLW1_cdmonjiP4eLDuT6wyfcnBJP-Mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <30d6d4e6-a8cd-5678-e9b5-13f38db4d7cc@msapiro.net>
 <CAE=bQ55k7fWTX+-2=hCduh+cHCpj2UHUg_X0Tsi5Df5mc5L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <552174df-6603-a180-aa80-570ee94e27e2@msapiro.net>
 <CAE=bQ55dCuACEksCWyf3NtVuGOJa3ykQdiRDjdOAftddhFubfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <01476556-fd23-7d3e-0eac-be885f507250@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAE=bQ55vSjjQMvXxZzAQ-5o3bvQD+Eig9UsSJrHvfDZLdSpjtw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Mark,

Everything looks good from the netstat command.

I did get a connection refused with telnet. However, I then installed
postfix on the host server and port 25 now seems to be open, yet no go so
far on the messages.

Just as a recap, I'm currently running mailman on a Ubuntu VM hosted on a
Ubuntu server. Perhaps then I need to forward port 25 to the VM somehow? I
did have this working fine from hard disks, but with some server troubles
we wanted to keep mailman more self-contained.


Scott

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 03/06/2017 11:39 AM, Scott Jones wrote:
> >
> > I have followed the integration methods you've pointed me towards. The
> > only thing I found was that I did not have a 'mailman' user installed
> > along with my mailman installation for changing the ownership of the
> > 'aliases' files.
> >
> > I've just received another DSN. The contents are:
> >
> >
> >
> > The response from the remote server was:
> >
> > The recipient server did not accept our requests to connect. Learn more
> > at https://support.google.com/mail/answer/7720
> > <https://support.google.com/mail/answer/7720> [[server FQDN] [IP]: timed
> > out]
> >
> >
> > Final-Recipient: rfc822; [mail list address]
> > Action: failed
> > Status: 4.4.1
> > Diagnostic-Code: smtp; The recipient server did not accept our requests
> > to connect. Learn more at https://support.google.com/mail/answer/7720
> > <https://support.google.com/mail/answer/7720>
> >  [[server FQDN] [IP]: timed out]
> > Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 11:31:34 -0800 (PST)
>
> Assuming Postfix is running and listening
>
> sudo netstat -ltnp|grep master
>
> should show things like
>
> tcp        0      0 0.0.0.0:25              0.0.0.0:*
> LISTEN      2781/master
>
> and maybe
>
> tcp6       0      0 :::25                   :::*
> LISTEN      2781/master
>
>
> If that's the case, this appears to be a firewall issue. You are not
> able to access port 25 on the server from outside. What do you get if
> from outside the server you do
>
> telnet [server FQDN] 25
>
> If you get an immediate connection refused, either Postfix isn't
> listening or the firewall is rejecting port 25 connects. More likely,
> and consistent with your DSN, you get a timeout which means the firewall
> is dropping packets to port 25.
>
> (Please reply-all to keep this on the list.)
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/
> mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/
> sjones%40scisat.ca
>

From harrison at utm.edu  Mon Mar  6 13:31:02 2017
From: harrison at utm.edu (Bruce Harrison)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 18:31:02 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] delay on mailman sending out messages
Message-ID: <SN1PR01MB162900E2FAC69C9BB9ED5C2FDE2C0@SN1PR01MB1629.prod.exchangelabs.com>

I'm running Mailman 2.1.7

In the past month or two.  I'm seeing Mailman delaying sending out messages.  In the logs I see where it's posted, then in /var/logs/maillog I see sending start immediately and then somewhere along the line a delay of an hour or two, then it finishes sending. Or it delays initially then starts sending.
This hasn't been happening in the past.  We in the process of moving a lot of our mail users to O365
Not sure what's going on or how best to troubleshoot.  Any ideas?

Bruce Harrison
Univ of Tennessee at Martin

Post Log
Mar 03 13:34:57 2017 (1223) post to information from munger at utm.edu, size=37061, message-id=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>, success log


/var/logs/maillog
Mar  3 09:11:23 mailman sendmail[17197]: v23FBNsO017197: from=<munger at utm.edu>, size=35583, class=0, nrcpts=1, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=mail-dm3nam03lp0023.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.23]
Mar  3 13:34:56 mailman sendmail[22801]: v23JYu9r022801: from=<information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu>, size=37061, class=-30, nrcpts=150, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)
Mar  3 13:34:56 mailman sendmail[22801]: v23JYu9s022801: from=<information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu>, size=37061, class=-30, nrcpts=500, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)
Mar  3 13:34:57 mailman sendmail[22801]: v23JYu9t022801: from=<information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu>, size=37061, class=-30, nrcpts=500, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)
Mar  3 13:34:57 mailman sendmail[22801]: v23JYu9u022801: from=<information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu>, size=37061, class=-30, nrcpts=500, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)
Mar  3 13:34:57 mailman sendmail[22801]: v23JYu9v022801: from=<information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu>, size=37061, class=-30, nrcpts=8, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)
Mar  3 13:34:57 mailman sendmail[22801]: v23JYu9w022801: from=<information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu>, size=37061, class=-30, nrcpts=7, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)
Mar  3 13:35:02 mailman sendmail[22811]: v23JYu9v022801: to=<trinitypresb at frontiernet.net>,<mcochran at wljt.org>,<khicks at utfcu.org>,<trinitypastor at frontiernet.net>,<mshumake at wljt.org>,<mnperry at comcast.net>,<mreese at wljt.org>,<mfield at charter.net>, delay=00:00:05, xdelay=00:00:05, mailer=relay, pri=331061, relay=xmail.utm.edu. [10.51.0.154], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu> [InternalId=7717462] Queued mail for delivery)
Mar  3 13:35:02 mailman sendmail[22805]: v23JYu9s022801: to=<thibbard at utm.edu>,<clovette at utm.edu>,<dahender at utm.edu>,<mbrooks at utm.edu>,<afulle14 at utm.edu>,<kroudenb at utm.edu>,<bjohnson at utm.edu>,<ndavis at utm.edu>,<jimerson at utm.edu>,<sburliso at utm.edu>,<thutche2 at utm.edu>,<hchen38 at utm.edu>,<nashbaug at utm.edu>,<mparish1 at utm.edu>,<jjohn275 at utm.edu>,<tgallien at utm.edu>,<sgoldmon at utm.edu>,<agardner at utm.edu>,<ddietrich at utm.edu>,<jfishe37 at utm.edu>,<ahuffma2 at utm.edu>,<kwheel19 at utm.edu>,<lmccurley at utm.edu>,<kelmwhit at ut.utm.edu>,<khammond at utm.edu>,<jscott61 at utm.edu>,<aricha54 at utm.edu>,<rpruit10 at utm.edu>,<ewheeler at utm.edu>,<lgibson at utm.edu>,<shalkias at utm.edu>,<akeller at utm.edu>,<phewitt at utm.edu>,<dabel at utm.edu>,<dryan11 at utm.edu>,<jdavis at utm.edu>, [more], delay=00:00:06, xdelay=00:00:06, mailer=relay, pri=15091061, relay=xmail.utm.edu. [10.51.0.154], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu> [InternalId=7717459] Queued mail for delivery)
.
.
.
Mar  3 13:35:30 mailman sendmail[22805]: v23JYu9s022801: to=<jjones98 at utm.edu>,<pwatkins at utm.edu>,<dmccull1 at utm.edu>,<dwilliams-boyd at utm.edu>,<jbyrd24 at utm.edu>,<ajohn171 at utm.edu>,<jgoyret at utm.edu>,<sholt at utm.edu>,<mgibson at utm.edu>,<jhende33 at utm.edu>,<bgiles at utm.edu>,<lwarren at utm.edu>,<mtraynom at utm.edu>,<blee37 at utm.edu>,<jjohn324 at utm.edu>,<rjones at utm.edu>,<sdyer at utm.edu>,<sperry19 at utm.edu>,<djorda19 at utm.edu>,<cposadny at utm.edu>,<tharri70 at utm.edu>,<gfelts at utm.edu>,<cnichols at utm.edu>,<jlavalle at utm.edu>,<jschomme at utm.edu>,<volds at utm.edu>, delay=00:00:34, xdelay=00:00:06, mailer=relay, pri=15091061, relay=xmail.utm.edu. [10.51.0.154], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu> [InternalId=7717507] Queued mail for delivery)
Mar  3 14:41:17 mailman sendmail[24288]: v23JYu9w022801: to=<chaamerw2000 at yahoo.com>,<jesse.kowalewski at sodexo.com>,<kevin_mclemore at hotmail.com>,<msudzum at worldtrav.com>,<njanemiller25 at gmail.com>,<sully12980 at aol.com>,<vlhiggs at gmail.com>, delay=01:06:20, xdelay=00:00:02, mailer=relay, pri=481061, relay=xmail.utm.edu. [10.51.0.154], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu> [InternalId=7719913] Queued mail for delivery)
Mar  3 14:42:43 mailman sendmail[24288]: v23JYu9r022801: to=<dsimmons at utm.edu>,<emoser at utm.edu>,<epritch2 at utm.edu>,<ereed21 at utm.edu>,<esimmons at utm.edu>,<espivey at utm.edu>,<ewhite38 at utm.edu>,<ffackler at utm.edu>,<gbrown at utm.edu>,<geckert at utm.edu>,<gibson at utm.edu>,<hknox at utm.edu>,<jash5 at utm.edu>,<jclark at utm.edu>,<jdonal11 at utm.edu>,<jesbensh at utm.edu>,<jforsyt5 at utm.edu>,<jgreenwood at utm.edu>,<jhahn at utm.edu>,<jjone239 at utm.edu>,<jlamb5 at utm.edu>,<jlongac1 at utm.edu>,<jmack at utm.edu>,<jmathern at utm.edu>,<jonrmitc at ut.utm.edu>,<jstreet7 at utm.edu>,<jyocum at utm.edu>,<kcurrie at utm.edu>,<kelliot4 at utm.edu>,<kericson at utm.edu>,<kevans31 at utm.edu>,<khealy at utm.edu>,<kprzybeck at utm.edu>,<krimfuhs at ut.utm.edu>,<kwill126 at utm.edu>,<ldavis at utm.edu>,<learls at utm.edu>, [more], delay=01:07:47, xdelay=00:00:05, mailer=relay, pri=4771061, relay=xmail.utm.edu. [10.51.0.154], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu> [InternalId=7719987] Queued mail for delivery)

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar  6 16:08:34 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 13:08:34 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unable to send emails with mailman/postfix
In-Reply-To: <CAE=bQ55vSjjQMvXxZzAQ-5o3bvQD+Eig9UsSJrHvfDZLdSpjtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE=bQ56L5+CwznR=W49vLW1_cdmonjiP4eLDuT6wyfcnBJP-Mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <30d6d4e6-a8cd-5678-e9b5-13f38db4d7cc@msapiro.net>
 <CAE=bQ55k7fWTX+-2=hCduh+cHCpj2UHUg_X0Tsi5Df5mc5L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <552174df-6603-a180-aa80-570ee94e27e2@msapiro.net>
 <CAE=bQ55dCuACEksCWyf3NtVuGOJa3ykQdiRDjdOAftddhFubfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <01476556-fd23-7d3e-0eac-be885f507250@msapiro.net>
 <CAE=bQ55vSjjQMvXxZzAQ-5o3bvQD+Eig9UsSJrHvfDZLdSpjtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29cdb221-e4a7-17e6-cd2a-ea3cae6016a9@msapiro.net>

On 03/06/2017 01:01 PM, Scott Jones wrote:
> 
> Just as a recap, I'm currently running mailman on a Ubuntu VM hosted on a
> Ubuntu server. Perhaps then I need to forward port 25 to the VM somehow? I
> did have this working fine from hard disks, but with some server troubles
> we wanted to keep mailman more self-contained.


Yes. That is your issue. You need port 25 connects to the host server to
forward to Postfix on the Mailman VM. If your VM has its own IP address
and DNS, this isn't an issue, but if DNS for the MX points to the host
server, it needs to forward that port to the VM.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar  6 18:02:17 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 15:02:17 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] delay on mailman sending out messages
In-Reply-To: <SN1PR01MB162900E2FAC69C9BB9ED5C2FDE2C0@SN1PR01MB1629.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <SN1PR01MB162900E2FAC69C9BB9ED5C2FDE2C0@SN1PR01MB1629.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <712cf382-9b5d-2249-ddd2-67e57534126c@msapiro.net>

On 03/06/2017 10:31 AM, Bruce Harrison wrote:
> I'm running Mailman 2.1.7
> 
> In the past month or two.  I'm seeing Mailman delaying sending out messages.  In the logs I see where it's posted, then in /var/logs/maillog I see sending start immediately and then somewhere along the line a delay of an hour or two, then it finishes sending. Or it delays initially then starts sending.
> This hasn't been happening in the past.  We in the process of moving a lot of our mail users to O365
> Not sure what's going on or how best to troubleshoot.  Any ideas?

I assume from the above that your concern is the delays following this

> Post Log
> Mar 03 13:34:57 2017 (1223) post to information from munger at utm.edu, size=37061, message-id=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>, success log


entry and not with the delay between this

> /var/logs/maillog
> Mar  3 09:11:23 mailman sendmail[17197]: v23FBNsO017197: from=<munger at utm.edu>, size=35583, class=0, nrcpts=1, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=mail-dm3nam03lp0023.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.23]

and the rest.  When the post log entry is written at 13:34:57, Mailman
has finished the delivery of the message for all recipients to sendmail.
Further delays are entirely within sendmail.


> Mar  3 13:34:56 mailman sendmail[22801]: v23JYu9r022801: from=<information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu>, size=37061, class=-30, nrcpts=150, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)
> Mar  3 13:34:56 mailman sendmail[22801]: v23JYu9s022801: from=<information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu>, size=37061, class=-30, nrcpts=500, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)
> Mar  3 13:34:57 mailman sendmail[22801]: v23JYu9t022801: from=<information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu>, size=37061, class=-30, nrcpts=500, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)
> Mar  3 13:34:57 mailman sendmail[22801]: v23JYu9u022801: from=<information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu>, size=37061, class=-30, nrcpts=500, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)
> Mar  3 13:34:57 mailman sendmail[22801]: v23JYu9v022801: from=<information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu>, size=37061, class=-30, nrcpts=8, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)
> Mar  3 13:34:57 mailman sendmail[22801]: v23JYu9w022801: from=<information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu>, size=37061, class=-30, nrcpts=7, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)

The above are sendmail's receipt of the delivered "chunks" from mailman.
Mailman is dividing the recipient list into chunks by top level domain.
See the comments in the code near the beginning of the definition of the
process function in Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py and the chunkify
function for how this is done.

In your case, SMTP_MAX_RCPTS is the default 500 and your recipients for
this message are split into 6 chunks of 150, 500, 500, 500, 8 and 7
recipients respectively and those are delivered to sendmail in 6 smtp
transactions, each with the respective number of RCPT TO recipients.

Then sendmail begins delivery.


> Mar  3 13:35:02 mailman sendmail[22811]: v23JYu9v022801: to=<trinitypresb at frontiernet.net>,<mcochran at wljt.org>,<khicks at utfcu.org>,<trinitypastor at frontiernet.net>,<mshumake at wljt.org>,<mnperry at comcast.net>,<mreese at wljt.org>,<mfield at charter.net>, delay=00:00:05, xdelay=00:00:05, mailer=relay, pri=331061, relay=xmail.utm.edu. [10.51.0.154], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu> [InternalId=7717462] Queued mail for delivery)

This chunk with 8 recipients in various domains is delivered quickly


> Mar  3 13:35:02 mailman sendmail[22805]: v23JYu9s022801: to=<thibbard at utm.edu>,<clovette at utm.edu>,<dahender at utm.edu>,<mbrooks at utm.edu>,<afulle14 at utm.edu>,<kroudenb at utm.edu>,<bjohnson at utm.edu>,<ndavis at utm.edu>,<jimerson at utm.edu>,<sburliso at utm.edu>,<thutche2 at utm.edu>,<hchen38 at utm.edu>,<nashbaug at utm.edu>,<mparish1 at utm.edu>,<jjohn275 at utm.edu>,<tgallien at utm.edu>,<sgoldmon at utm.edu>,<agardner at utm.edu>,<ddietrich at utm.edu>,<jfishe37 at utm.edu>,<ahuffma2 at utm.edu>,<kwheel19 at utm.edu>,<lmccurley at utm.edu>,<kelmwhit at ut.utm.edu>,<khammond at utm.edu>,<jscott61 at utm.edu>,<aricha54 at utm.edu>,<rpruit10 at utm.edu>,<ewheeler at utm.edu>,<lgibson at utm.edu>,<shalkias at utm.edu>,<akeller at utm.edu>,<phewitt at utm.edu>,<dabel at utm.edu>,<dryan11 at utm.edu>,<jdavis at utm.edu>, [more], delay=00:00:06, xdelay=00:00:06, mailer=relay, pri=15091061, relay=xmail.utm.edu. [10.51.0.154], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu> [InternalId=7717459] Queued mail for delivery)

as is this chunk with a large number of utm recipients.
> .
> .
> .
> Mar  3 13:35:30 mailman sendmail[22805]: v23JYu9s022801: to=<jjones98 at utm.edu>,<pwatkins at utm.edu>,<dmccull1 at utm.edu>,<dwilliams-boyd at utm.edu>,<jbyrd24 at utm.edu>,<ajohn171 at utm.edu>,<jgoyret at utm.edu>,<sholt at utm.edu>,<mgibson at utm.edu>,<jhende33 at utm.edu>,<bgiles at utm.edu>,<lwarren at utm.edu>,<mtraynom at utm.edu>,<blee37 at utm.edu>,<jjohn324 at utm.edu>,<rjones at utm.edu>,<sdyer at utm.edu>,<sperry19 at utm.edu>,<djorda19 at utm.edu>,<cposadny at utm.edu>,<tharri70 at utm.edu>,<gfelts at utm.edu>,<cnichols at utm.edu>,<jlavalle at utm.edu>,<jschomme at utm.edu>,<volds at utm.edu>, delay=00:00:34, xdelay=00:00:06, mailer=relay, pri=15091061, relay=xmail.utm.edu. [10.51.0.154], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu> [InternalId=7717507] Queued mail for delivery)

and this one with more utm recips.


> Mar  3 14:41:17 mailman sendmail[24288]: v23JYu9w022801: to=<chaamerw2000 at yahoo.com>,<jesse.kowalewski at sodexo.com>,<kevin_mclemore at hotmail.com>,<msudzum at worldtrav.com>,<njanemiller25 at gmail.com>,<sully12980 at aol.com>,<vlhiggs at gmail.com>, delay=01:06:20, xdelay=00:00:02, mailer=relay, pri=481061, relay=xmail.utm.edu. [10.51.0.154], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu> [InternalId=7719913] Queued mail for delivery)

this chunk with 7 recips in various domains is delayed over an hour. I
don't know much about sendmail, but this could be because there was some
issue contacting the MX for one of the seven and the whole message was
deferred.

> Mar  3 14:42:43 mailman sendmail[24288]: v23JYu9r022801: to=<dsimmons at utm.edu>,<emoser at utm.edu>,<epritch2 at utm.edu>,<ereed21 at utm.edu>,<esimmons at utm.edu>,<espivey at utm.edu>,<ewhite38 at utm.edu>,<ffackler at utm.edu>,<gbrown at utm.edu>,<geckert at utm.edu>,<gibson at utm.edu>,<hknox at utm.edu>,<jash5 at utm.edu>,<jclark at utm.edu>,<jdonal11 at utm.edu>,<jesbensh at utm.edu>,<jforsyt5 at utm.edu>,<jgreenwood at utm.edu>,<jhahn at utm.edu>,<jjone239 at utm.edu>,<jlamb5 at utm.edu>,<jlongac1 at utm.edu>,<jmack at utm.edu>,<jmathern at utm.edu>,<jonrmitc at ut.utm.edu>,<jstreet7 at utm.edu>,<jyocum at utm.edu>,<kcurrie at utm.edu>,<kelliot4 at utm.edu>,<kericson at utm.edu>,<kevans31 at utm.edu>,<khealy at utm.edu>,<kprzybeck at utm.edu>,<krimfuhs at ut.utm.edu>,<kwill126 at utm.edu>,<ldavis at utm.edu>,<learls at utm.edu>, [more], delay=01:07:47, xdelay=00:00:05, mailer=relay, pri=4771061, relay=xmail.utm.edu. [10.51.0.154], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu> [InternalId=7719987] Queued mail for delivery)

And similarly for this one with utm recips. Maybe one recip had a
transient mailbox issue trhat caused the entire message to be deferred.

There are some older articles in the faq at <https://wiki.list.org/>.
Search titles for performance.

I recommend:
Consider upgrading Mailman. 2.1.7 is very old. Upgrades won't address
this issue specifically, but many new features and bug fixes have
occurred since 2.1.7 was released over 11 years ago.

Set

VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1

in mm_cfg.py. This will improve bounce recognition, but mainly it has
the same effect as setting SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 1 so each recipient is sent
in a single SMTP transaction so sendmail delivery to a large chunk of
recips is not impacted by one delay.

If you don't want to go that far, or if this causes Mailman -> sendmail
delivery to take too long. at least try something like

SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 10

The bottom line is this is all in sendmail and this list is not the best
resource for sendmail issues. Most of us are more versed in Postfix or Exim.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From harrison at utm.edu  Mon Mar  6 17:40:42 2017
From: harrison at utm.edu (Bruce Harrison)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 22:40:42 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] delays in mailman sending out email
Message-ID: <SN1PR01MB1629D1A912DBFB3BA3C874E5DE2C0@SN1PR01MB1629.prod.exchangelabs.com>

I'm running Mailman 2.1.7

In the past month or two.  I'm seeing Mailman delaying sending out messages.  In the logs I see where it's posted, then in /var/logs/maillog I see sending start immediately and then somewhere along the line a delay of an hour or two, then it finishes sending. Or it delays initially then starts sending.
This hasn't been happening in the past.  We in the process of moving a lot of our mail users to O365
Not sure what's going on or how best to troubleshoot.  Any ideas?

Bruce Harrison
Univ of Tennessee at Martin

Post Log
Mar 03 13:34:57 2017 (1223) post to information from munger at utm.edu<mailto:munger at utm.edu>, size=37061, message-id=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu<mailto:320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>>, success log


/var/logs/maillog
Mar  3 09:11:23 mailman sendmail[17197]: v23FBNsO017197: from=<munger at utm.edu<mailto:munger at utm.edu>>, size=35583, class=0, nrcpts=1, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu<mailto:320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=mail-dm3nam03lp0023.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.23]
Mar  3 13:34:56 mailman sendmail[22801]: v23JYu9r022801: from=<information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu<mailto:information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu>>, size=37061, class=-30, nrcpts=150, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu<mailto:320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)
Mar  3 13:34:56 mailman sendmail[22801]: v23JYu9s022801: from=<information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu<mailto:information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu>>, size=37061, class=-30, nrcpts=500, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu<mailto:320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)
Mar  3 13:34:57 mailman sendmail[22801]: v23JYu9t022801: from=<information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu<mailto:information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu>>, size=37061, class=-30, nrcpts=500, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu<mailto:320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)
Mar  3 13:34:57 mailman sendmail[22801]: v23JYu9u022801: from=<information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu<mailto:information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu>>, size=37061, class=-30, nrcpts=500, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu<mailto:320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)
Mar  3 13:34:57 mailman sendmail[22801]: v23JYu9v022801: from=<information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu<mailto:information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu>>, size=37061, class=-30, nrcpts=8, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu<mailto:320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)
Mar  3 13:34:57 mailman sendmail[22801]: v23JYu9w022801: from=<information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu<mailto:information-bounces at mailman.utm.edu>>, size=37061, class=-30, nrcpts=7, msgid=<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu<mailto:320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)
Mar  3 13:35:02 mailman sendmail[22811]: v23JYu9v022801: to=<trinitypresb at frontiernet.net<mailto:trinitypresb at frontiernet.net>>,<mcochran at wljt.org<mailto:mcochran at wljt.org>>,<khicks at utfcu.org<mailto:khicks at utfcu.org>>,<trinitypastor at frontiernet.net<mailto:trinitypastor at frontiernet.net>>,<mshumake at wljt.org<mailto:mshumake at wljt.org>>,<mnperry at comcast.net<mailto:mnperry at comcast.net>>,<mreese at wljt.org<mailto:mreese at wljt.org>>,<mfield at charter.net<mailto:mfield at charter.net>>, delay=00:00:05, xdelay=00:00:05, mailer=relay, pri=331061, relay=xmail.utm.edu. [10.51.0.154], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu<mailto:320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>> [InternalId=7717462] Queued mail for delivery)
Mar  3 13:35:02 mailman sendmail[22805]: v23JYu9s022801: to=<thibbard at utm.edu<mailto:thibbard at utm.edu>>,<clovette at utm.edu<mailto:clovette at utm.edu>>,<dahender at utm.edu<mailto:dahender at utm.edu>>,<mbrooks at utm.edu<mailto:mbrooks at utm.edu>>,<afulle14 at utm.edu<mailto:afulle14 at utm.edu>>,<kroudenb at utm.edu<mailto:kroudenb at utm.edu>>,<bjohnson at utm.edu<mailto:bjohnson at utm.edu>>,<ndavis at utm.edu<mailto:ndavis at utm.edu>>,<jimerson at utm.edu<mailto:jimerson at utm.edu>>,<sburliso at utm.edu<mailto:sburliso at utm.edu>>,<thutche2 at utm.edu<mailto:thutche2 at utm.edu>>,<hchen38 at utm.edu<mailto:hchen38 at utm.edu>>,<nashbaug at utm.edu<mailto:nashbaug at utm.edu>>,<mparish1 at utm.edu<mailto:mparish1 at utm.edu>>,<jjohn275 at utm.edu<mailto:jjohn275 at utm.edu>>,<tgallien at utm.edu<mailto:tgallien at utm.edu>>,<sgoldmon at utm.edu<mailto:sgoldmon at utm.edu>>,<agardner at utm.edu<mailto:agardner at utm.edu>>,<ddietrich at utm.edu<mailto:ddietrich at utm.edu>>,<jfishe37 at utm.edu<mailto:jfishe37 at utm.edu>>,<ahuffma2 at utm.edu<mailto:ahuffma2 at utm.edu>>,<kwheel19 at utm.edu<mailto:kwheel19 at utm.edu>>,<lmccurley at utm.edu<mailto:lmccurley at utm.edu>>,<kelmwhit at ut.utm.edu<mailto:kelmwhit at ut.utm.edu>>,<khammond at utm.edu<mailto:khammond at utm.edu>>,<jscott61 at utm.edu<mailto:jscott61 at utm.edu>>,<aricha54 at utm.edu<mailto:aricha54 at utm.edu>>,<rpruit10 at utm.edu<mailto:rpruit10 at utm.edu>>,<ewheeler at utm.edu<mailto:ewheeler at utm.edu>>,<lgibson at utm.edu<mailto:lgibson at utm.edu>>,<shalkias at utm.edu<mailto:shalkias at utm.edu>>,<akeller at utm.edu<mailto:akeller at utm.edu>>,<phewitt at utm.edu<mailto:phewitt at utm.edu>>,<dabel at utm.edu<mailto:dabel at utm.edu>>,<dryan11 at utm.edu<mailto:dryan11 at utm.edu>>,<jdavis at utm.edu<mailto:jdavis at utm.edu>>, [more], delay=00:00:06, xdelay=00:00:06, mailer=relay, pri=15091061, relay=xmail.utm.edu. [10.51.0.154], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu<mailto:320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>> [InternalId=7717459] Queued mail for delivery)
.
.
.
Mar  3 13:35:30 mailman sendmail[22805]: v23JYu9s022801: to=<jjones98 at utm.edu<mailto:jjones98 at utm.edu>>,<pwatkins at utm.edu<mailto:pwatkins at utm.edu>>,<dmccull1 at utm.edu<mailto:dmccull1 at utm.edu>>,<dwilliams-boyd at utm.edu<mailto:dwilliams-boyd at utm.edu>>,<jbyrd24 at utm.edu<mailto:jbyrd24 at utm.edu>>,<ajohn171 at utm.edu<mailto:ajohn171 at utm.edu>>,<jgoyret at utm.edu<mailto:jgoyret at utm.edu>>,<sholt at utm.edu<mailto:sholt at utm.edu>>,<mgibson at utm.edu<mailto:mgibson at utm.edu>>,<jhende33 at utm.edu<mailto:jhende33 at utm.edu>>,<bgiles at utm.edu<mailto:bgiles at utm.edu>>,<lwarren at utm.edu<mailto:lwarren at utm.edu>>,<mtraynom at utm.edu<mailto:mtraynom at utm.edu>>,<blee37 at utm.edu<mailto:blee37 at utm.edu>>,<jjohn324 at utm.edu<mailto:jjohn324 at utm.edu>>,<rjones at utm.edu<mailto:rjones at utm.edu>>,<sdyer at utm.edu<mailto:sdyer at utm.edu>>,<sperry19 at utm.edu<mailto:sperry19 at utm.edu>>,<djorda19 at utm.edu<mailto:djorda19 at utm.edu>>,<cposadny at utm.edu<mailto:cposadny at utm.edu>>,<tharri70 at utm.edu<mailto:tharri70 at utm.edu>>,<gfelts at utm.edu<mailto:gfelts at utm.edu>>,<cnichols at utm.edu<mailto:cnichols at utm.edu>>,<jlavalle at utm.edu<mailto:jlavalle at utm.edu>>,<jschomme at utm.edu<mailto:jschomme at utm.edu>>,<volds at utm.edu<mailto:volds at utm.edu>>, delay=00:00:34, xdelay=00:00:06, mailer=relay, pri=15091061, relay=xmail.utm.edu. [10.51.0.154], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu<mailto:320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>> [InternalId=7717507] Queued mail for delivery)
Mar  3 14:41:17 mailman sendmail[24288]: v23JYu9w022801: to=<chaamerw2000 at yahoo.com<mailto:chaamerw2000 at yahoo.com>>,<jesse.kowalewski at sodexo.com<mailto:jesse.kowalewski at sodexo.com>>,<kevin_mclemore at hotmail.com<mailto:kevin_mclemore at hotmail.com>>,<msudzum at worldtrav.com<mailto:msudzum at worldtrav.com>>,<njanemiller25 at gmail.com<mailto:njanemiller25 at gmail.com>>,<sully12980 at aol.com<mailto:sully12980 at aol.com>>,<vlhiggs at gmail.com<mailto:vlhiggs at gmail.com>>, delay=01:06:20, xdelay=00:00:02, mailer=relay, pri=481061, relay=xmail.utm.edu. [10.51.0.154], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu<mailto:320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>> [InternalId=7719913] Queued mail for delivery)
Mar  3 14:42:43 mailman sendmail[24288]: v23JYu9r022801: to=<dsimmons at utm.edu<mailto:dsimmons at utm.edu>>,<emoser at utm.edu<mailto:emoser at utm.edu>>,<epritch2 at utm.edu<mailto:epritch2 at utm.edu>>,<ereed21 at utm.edu<mailto:ereed21 at utm.edu>>,<esimmons at utm.edu<mailto:esimmons at utm.edu>>,<espivey at utm.edu<mailto:espivey at utm.edu>>,<ewhite38 at utm.edu<mailto:ewhite38 at utm.edu>>,<ffackler at utm.edu<mailto:ffackler at utm.edu>>,<gbrown at utm.edu<mailto:gbrown at utm.edu>>,<geckert at utm.edu<mailto:geckert at utm.edu>>,<gibson at utm.edu<mailto:gibson at utm.edu>>,<hknox at utm.edu<mailto:hknox at utm.edu>>,<jash5 at utm.edu<mailto:jash5 at utm.edu>>,<jclark at utm.edu<mailto:jclark at utm.edu>>,<jdonal11 at utm.edu<mailto:jdonal11 at utm.edu>>,<jesbensh at utm.edu<mailto:jesbensh at utm.edu>>,<jforsyt5 at utm.edu<mailto:jforsyt5 at utm.edu>>,<jgreenwood at utm.edu<mailto:jgreenwood at utm.edu>>,<jhahn at utm.edu<mailto:jhahn at utm.edu>>,<jjone239 at utm.edu<mailto:jjone239 at utm.edu>>,<jlamb5 at utm.edu<mailto:jlamb5 at utm.edu>>,<jlongac1 at utm.edu<mailto:jlongac1 at utm.edu>>,<jmack at utm.edu<mailto:jmack at utm.edu>>,<jmathern at utm.edu<mailto:jmathern at utm.edu>>,<jonrmitc at ut.utm.edu<mailto:jonrmitc at ut.utm.edu>>,<jstreet7 at utm.edu<mailto:jstreet7 at utm.edu>>,<jyocum at utm.edu<mailto:jyocum at utm.edu>>,<kcurrie at utm.edu<mailto:kcurrie at utm.edu>>,<kelliot4 at utm.edu<mailto:kelliot4 at utm.edu>>,<kericson at utm.edu<mailto:kericson at utm.edu>>,<kevans31 at utm.edu<mailto:kevans31 at utm.edu>>,<khealy at utm.edu<mailto:khealy at utm.edu>>,<kprzybeck at utm.edu<mailto:kprzybeck at utm.edu>>,<krimfuhs at ut.utm.edu<mailto:krimfuhs at ut.utm.edu>>,<kwill126 at utm.edu<mailto:kwill126 at utm.edu>>,<ldavis at utm.edu<mailto:ldavis at utm.edu>>,<learls at utm.edu<mailto:learls at utm.edu>>, [more], delay=01:07:47, xdelay=00:00:05, mailer=relay, pri=4771061, relay=xmail.utm.edu. [10.51.0.154], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (<320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu<mailto:320E686FEA4720449A309FC08FC6F49D01023D575A at EXCH2010MBOX2.utm.edu>> [InternalId=7719987] Queued mail for delivery)


From Brett at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Mon Mar  6 18:43:56 2017
From: Brett at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (Brett Delmage)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 18:43:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Possible to get list mbox archives anywhere?
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1703061837150.23865@pannier.local>

I unsub'd from the list from 2015-07-05 through 2016-12-15.

I'm admining Mailman again and it would be nice to have a local archive I 
could search through quickly for answers. Ya, I know the list web archives 
are searchable...

Can anyone connect me with a list archives (mbox format) I can fill the 
hole in my local list archives with?

Thank you!

Brett

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar  6 18:57:10 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 15:57:10 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Possible to get list mbox archives anywhere?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1703061837150.23865@pannier.local>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1703061837150.23865@pannier.local>
Message-ID: <7fa28c9d-8a3f-9388-a20b-7498119ad12d@msapiro.net>

On 03/06/2017 03:43 PM, Brett Delmage wrote:
> I unsub'd from the list from 2015-07-05 through 2016-12-15.
> 
> I'm admining Mailman again and it would be nice to have a local archive
> I could search through quickly for answers. Ya, I know the list web
> archives are searchable...
> 
> Can anyone connect me with a list archives (mbox format) I can fill the
> hole in my local list archives with?


You can download the entire archive mbox at
<https://mail.python.org/mailman/private/mailman-users.mbox/mailman-users.mbox>
(requires authentication with your list password) and select the portion
you want from that.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From sjones at scisat.ca  Tue Mar  7 11:48:48 2017
From: sjones at scisat.ca (Scott Jones)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:48:48 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unable to send emails with mailman/postfix
In-Reply-To: <29cdb221-e4a7-17e6-cd2a-ea3cae6016a9@msapiro.net>
References: <CAE=bQ56L5+CwznR=W49vLW1_cdmonjiP4eLDuT6wyfcnBJP-Mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <30d6d4e6-a8cd-5678-e9b5-13f38db4d7cc@msapiro.net>
 <CAE=bQ55k7fWTX+-2=hCduh+cHCpj2UHUg_X0Tsi5Df5mc5L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <552174df-6603-a180-aa80-570ee94e27e2@msapiro.net>
 <CAE=bQ55dCuACEksCWyf3NtVuGOJa3ykQdiRDjdOAftddhFubfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <01476556-fd23-7d3e-0eac-be885f507250@msapiro.net>
 <CAE=bQ55vSjjQMvXxZzAQ-5o3bvQD+Eig9UsSJrHvfDZLdSpjtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <29cdb221-e4a7-17e6-cd2a-ea3cae6016a9@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAE=bQ55Vi3Qt441Y2=6RrTpH7PsEM+Yh-cnpgkvu+-F+MS5wEA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Mark,

I've managed to forward port 25 to my VM. I am still not receiving messages
sent from my gmail address (on the list) to the mailing list.

The only other thing I've learned is that I can send mail to that same list
from the command line with 'mail -s', which leads me to believe postfix is
OK.


Thanks for all of your help,

Scott

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 4:08 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 03/06/2017 01:01 PM, Scott Jones wrote:
> >
> > Just as a recap, I'm currently running mailman on a Ubuntu VM hosted on a
> > Ubuntu server. Perhaps then I need to forward port 25 to the VM somehow?
> I
> > did have this working fine from hard disks, but with some server troubles
> > we wanted to keep mailman more self-contained.
>
>
> Yes. That is your issue. You need port 25 connects to the host server to
> forward to Postfix on the Mailman VM. If your VM has its own IP address
> and DNS, this isn't an issue, but if DNS for the MX points to the host
> server, it needs to forward that port to the VM.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/
> mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/
> sjones%40scisat.ca
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar  7 12:02:07 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 09:02:07 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unable to send emails with mailman/postfix
In-Reply-To: <CAE=bQ55Vi3Qt441Y2=6RrTpH7PsEM+Yh-cnpgkvu+-F+MS5wEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE=bQ56L5+CwznR=W49vLW1_cdmonjiP4eLDuT6wyfcnBJP-Mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <30d6d4e6-a8cd-5678-e9b5-13f38db4d7cc@msapiro.net>
 <CAE=bQ55k7fWTX+-2=hCduh+cHCpj2UHUg_X0Tsi5Df5mc5L3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <552174df-6603-a180-aa80-570ee94e27e2@msapiro.net>
 <CAE=bQ55dCuACEksCWyf3NtVuGOJa3ykQdiRDjdOAftddhFubfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <01476556-fd23-7d3e-0eac-be885f507250@msapiro.net>
 <CAE=bQ55vSjjQMvXxZzAQ-5o3bvQD+Eig9UsSJrHvfDZLdSpjtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <29cdb221-e4a7-17e6-cd2a-ea3cae6016a9@msapiro.net>
 <CAE=bQ55Vi3Qt441Y2=6RrTpH7PsEM+Yh-cnpgkvu+-F+MS5wEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6b67e128-c5c3-8b73-948f-044623998b1b@msapiro.net>

On 03/07/2017 08:48 AM, Scott Jones wrote:
> 
> I've managed to forward port 25 to my VM. I am still not receiving messages
> sent from my gmail address (on the list) to the mailing list.


What's in /var/log/mail.log on the VM?


> The only other thing I've learned is that I can send mail to that same list
> from the command line with 'mail -s', which leads me to believe postfix is
> OK.


So it seems that Postfix on the VM can deliver to the Mailman list, so
my guess is that mail from the outside still isn't reaching Postfix on
the VM. As Adam suggests, possibly a firewall issue on the VM.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From adam at agp-llc.com  Tue Mar  7 11:56:21 2017
From: adam at agp-llc.com (Adam Goldberg)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 16:56:21 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unable to send emails with mailman/postfix
Message-ID: <0100015aa9b3409b-ed6b4050-5a95-4fb0-8b75-1ef31120f6f4-000000@email.amazonses.com>

Check your firewall settings on the VM.  You may need to open up 25.

Adam Goldberg
202-507-9900




On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 11:49 AM -0500, "Scott Jones" <sjones at scisat.ca<mailto:sjones at scisat.ca>> wrote:

Hi Mark,

I've managed to forward port 25 to my VM. I am still not receiving messages
sent from my gmail address (on the list) to the mailing list.

The only other thing I've learned is that I can send mail to that same list
from the command line with 'mail -s', which leads me to believe postfix is
OK.


Thanks for all of your help,

Scott

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 4:08 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 03/06/2017 01:01 PM, Scott Jones wrote:
> >
> > Just as a recap, I'm currently running mailman on a Ubuntu VM hosted on a
> > Ubuntu server. Perhaps then I need to forward port 25 to the VM somehow?
> I
> > did have this working fine from hard disks, but with some server troubles
> > we wanted to keep mailman more self-contained.
>
>
> Yes. That is your issue. You need port 25 connects to the host server to
> forward to Postfix on the Mailman VM. If your VM has its own IP address
> and DNS, this isn't an issue, but if DNS for the MX points to the host
> server, it needs to forward that port to the VM.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/
> mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/
> sjones%40scisat.ca
>
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/adam%40agp-llc.com

From c.endemann at fsc.org  Wed Mar  8 04:59:22 2017
From: c.endemann at fsc.org (Christina Endemann)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:59:22 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] disappearing subscriber
Message-ID: <d587f32125c348a4ae40486af9f9fcc5@FSC-DMZ-MAIL.fsc-ic.org>


Dear all,

one of our subscribers was "somehow" taken off the mailing list.


a)      He was certainly on the list until a while ago (by chance I had a list of subscriptions from two/three weeks ago)

b)      I did not unsubscribe him (to my knowledge), and also I don't have an unsubscribe message

c)       After subscribing that person again, he appeared in the members list again, but the strange thing is that his name field is filled in, which I certainly did not fill this time.

So it looks a bit as if that person had been deactivated / reactivated.
Can someone shed some light on this?  We have to ensure that people reliably get the messages.

Thanks!

Christina



And, btw, the moderator notification issue is solved thanks to your help. It was in fact only the non-existing e-mail address.

From c.endemann at fsc.org  Wed Mar  8 05:09:22 2017
From: c.endemann at fsc.org (Christina Endemann)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 10:09:22 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] disappearing subscriber - sorry, solved!
Message-ID: <51bdf9f9fa3240319b69c490dedf1d73@FSC-DMZ-MAIL.fsc-ic.org>

Sorry, Looking into this again, I found that they changed their e-mail addresses  from .net org to .com. I did not notice that before.
As simple as that.

Sorry for bothering you.
Cheers, Christina


From: Christina Endemann
Sent: Mittwoch, 8. M?rz 2017 10:59
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: disappearing subscriber


Dear all,

one of our subscribers was "somehow" taken off the mailing list.


a)      He was certainly on the list until a while ago (by chance I had a list of subscriptions from two/three weeks ago)

b)      I did not unsubscribe him (to my knowledge), and also I don't have an unsubscribe message

c)       After subscribing that person again, he appeared in the members list again, but the strange thing is that his name field is filled in, which I certainly did not fill this time.

So it looks a bit as if that person had been deactivated / reactivated.
Can someone shed some light on this?  We have to ensure that people reliably get the messages.

Thanks!

Christina



And, btw, the moderator notification issue is solved thanks to your help. It was in fact only the non-existing e-mail address.

From luscheina at yahoo.de  Wed Mar  8 05:14:40 2017
From: luscheina at yahoo.de (Christian F Buser)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 11:14:40 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] disappearing subscriber
In-Reply-To: <d587f32125c348a4ae40486af9f9fcc5@FSC-DMZ-MAIL.fsc-ic.org>
References: <d587f32125c348a4ae40486af9f9fcc5@FSC-DMZ-MAIL.fsc-ic.org>
Message-ID: <20170308111440904626.3b130a0c@yahoo.de>

Hello Christina Endemann. On Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:59:22 +0000, you wrote:

> one of our subscribers was "somehow" taken off the mailing list.
> 
> a)      He was certainly on the list until a while ago (by chance I 
> had a list of subscriptions from two/three weeks ago)
> 
> b)      I did not unsubscribe him (to my knowledge), and also I don't 
> have an unsubscribe message

He could have been unsubscribed automagically due to too many bounced messages to his address. 

> c)       After subscribing that person again, he appeared in the 
> members list again, but the strange thing is that his name field is 
> filled in, which I certainly did not fill this time.

Is this a cPanel installation? I had a mail (not list) user whose address was suspended (no incoming mail, no login) and afterwards deleted. After some time, the address was re-created and it showed up with the last status of that address (suspended) just after re-creation. This behaviour might also apply to lists, but it is just an assumption - not knowledge. 

> So it looks a bit as if that person had been deactivated / reactivated.
> Can someone shed some light on this?  We have to ensure that people 
> reliably get the messages.

If he was taken off the list due to bounces - why should Mailman send a message to an address which does not accept mails? 

Christian 
-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)      
Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org

From james at dorydesign.com  Wed Mar  8 13:11:03 2017
From: james at dorydesign.com (Jim Dory)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 09:11:03 -0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] removing individual email headers from digest
Message-ID: <CAKhfoy2uvc9iqCJ8VFF4iyywTu9wniQg64yz9CKrCH-OA38E_A@mail.gmail.com>

I got a request from a user that seemed to make sense: removing unnecessary
email headers at the top of each message in a digest. So I googled it, but
before implementing it wanted to make sure it was correct and wouldn't
cause other issues by presenting it here for comment.

The fields of each collected message that seem appropriate for removal
would be the "To:" line, since that is in the digest header, the
Message-ID: line since that means nothing to the end user, and the
Content-Type as that probably means nothing to the end user.

That would leave intact the Date, From, and Subject lines.

So here's the solution I found by googling (would it work or is better
way?), and commenting out lines to keep:

main config is loaded is Defaults.py
above it mm_cfg.py config loaded
edit
sudo nano /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py
with adding in the end:


# removing frustrating headers, 2016 06 04 by OG2K
#
PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('Message')
PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('Date')
PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('From')
PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('To')
PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('Cc')
PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('Subject')
PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('Message-ID')
PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('Keywords')
PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('Content-Type')

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Thu Mar  9 01:05:09 2017
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 15:05:09 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  removing individual email headers from digest
In-Reply-To: <CAKhfoy2uvc9iqCJ8VFF4iyywTu9wniQg64yz9CKrCH-OA38E_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKhfoy2uvc9iqCJ8VFF4iyywTu9wniQg64yz9CKrCH-OA38E_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22720.61589.305610.160978@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Jim Dory writes:

Warnings:

 > Message-ID: line since that means nothing to the end user, and the

If you have any digest subscribers with decent MUAs who are exploding
the digest into individual messages, or treating it as a folder, and
therefore would be able to respond to individual messages, you'll
break threading (ie, replies will be treated as new conversations by
many MUAs, and no MUAs will be able to keep late replies "near" the
message they are in-reply-to -- they'll be all jumbled up ).

 > Content-Type as that probably means nothing to the end user.

Content-Type is essential to most MUAs to present the individual
messages correctly.  Standard-conforming MUAs present the "raw"
version of messages, including HTML markup and encoded characters (eg,
foreign languages and emoticons).

You're welcome to try it and see (as it turns out, most popular MUAs
are anything but standard-conforming, so they may be able to guess
what is meant from the context), but I would do it in the morning and
monitor the list frequently throughout the day for cries of anguish
from the digest subscribers.

Steve

From james at dorydesign.com  Thu Mar  9 02:06:41 2017
From: james at dorydesign.com (Jim Dory)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 22:06:41 -0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] removing individual email headers from digest
In-Reply-To: <22720.61589.305610.160978@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAKhfoy2uvc9iqCJ8VFF4iyywTu9wniQg64yz9CKrCH-OA38E_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <22720.61589.305610.160978@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAKhfoy2QLgpoonMz4BxDvM=URu-epQA2Pkgrewd6r945gBMCfg@mail.gmail.com>

cool - things I didn't know about. Thanks Steve.    /jim

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 9:05 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <
turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:

> Jim Dory writes:
>
> Warnings:
>
>  > Message-ID: line since that means nothing to the end user, and the
>
> If you have any digest subscribers with decent MUAs who are exploding
> the digest into individual messages, or treating it as a folder, and
> therefore would be able to respond to individual messages, you'll
> break threading (ie, replies will be treated as new conversations by
> many MUAs, and no MUAs will be able to keep late replies "near" the
> message they are in-reply-to -- they'll be all jumbled up ).
>
>  > Content-Type as that probably means nothing to the end user.
>
> Content-Type is essential to most MUAs to present the individual
> messages correctly.  Standard-conforming MUAs present the "raw"
> version of messages, including HTML markup and encoded characters (eg,
> foreign languages and emoticons).
>
> You're welcome to try it and see (as it turns out, most popular MUAs
> are anything but standard-conforming, so they may be able to guess
> what is meant from the context), but I would do it in the morning and
> monitor the list frequently throughout the day for cries of anguish
> from the digest subscribers.
>
> Steve
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar  9 03:56:00 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 00:56:00 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] removing individual email headers from digest
In-Reply-To: <CAKhfoy2uvc9iqCJ8VFF4iyywTu9wniQg64yz9CKrCH-OA38E_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKhfoy2uvc9iqCJ8VFF4iyywTu9wniQg64yz9CKrCH-OA38E_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1ef296dd-b543-6608-ab58-772837620bfa@msapiro.net>

On 03/08/2017 10:11 AM, Jim Dory wrote:
> 
> The fields of each collected message that seem appropriate for removal
> would be the "To:" line, since that is in the digest header, the
> Message-ID: line since that means nothing to the end user, and the
> Content-Type as that probably means nothing to the end user.
> 
> That would leave intact the Date, From, and Subject lines.
> 
> So here's the solution I found by googling (would it work or is better
> way?), and commenting out lines to keep:
> 
> main config is loaded is Defaults.py
> above it mm_cfg.py config loaded
> edit
> sudo nano /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py
> with adding in the end:
> 
> 
> # removing frustrating headers, 2016 06 04 by OG2K
> #
> PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('Message')
> PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('Date')
> PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('From')
> PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('To')
> PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('Cc')
> PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('Subject')
> PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('Message-ID')
> PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('Keywords')
> PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('Content-Type')


Do you really want to remove them all? Actually, the format of the plain
digest is described in RFC 1153 which says in part

   If they exist in the
   original message header, the following lines must be retained as-is
   in the reconstructed header: Date:, From:, To:, Cc:, Subject:,
   Message-ID:, and Keywords:, rearranged to appear in that order.

So the RFC requires those. It also says

   All other header lines should be
   discarded, especially Received lines.

note that this is a 'should', not 'must' but the only others we include
are the Message: header which is actually just the sequence number of
the message in the digest and Content-Type:. Actually, since this is a
'plain' digest, all non-text/plain parts have been removed anyway, and
depending on the list's content filtering, the content type will be
either text/plain or some multipart/ or message/rfc822 type which is
probably meaningless in the context of a plain text digest.

I'm not sure why we include Content-Type: in plain digests and that
chould be removed, although it could contain potentially useful
information about the original character set of the message (the charset
in the digest is that of the list's preferred language). Steve's point
about Content-Type: is only relevant for MIME digests. The only other
header not required by the RFC is Message:

Of course, you are free to remove any headers you don't want, but this
makes your digest non-compliant and Steve's point about Message-ID: and
threading in exploded digests is valid although without References: or
In-Reply-To:, Message-ID: alone is not to useful for threading.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Thu Mar  9 11:00:49 2017
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 01:00:49 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] removing individual email headers from digest
In-Reply-To: <1ef296dd-b543-6608-ab58-772837620bfa@msapiro.net>
References: <CAKhfoy2uvc9iqCJ8VFF4iyywTu9wniQg64yz9CKrCH-OA38E_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ef296dd-b543-6608-ab58-772837620bfa@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <22721.31793.936162.66404@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > Of course, you are free to remove any headers you don't want, but this
 > makes your digest non-compliant and Steve's point about Message-ID: and
 > threading in exploded digests is valid although without References: or
 > In-Reply-To:, Message-ID: alone is not to useful for threading.

That's not quite true.  It's true that the user herself needs the
replied-to message ID to thread, but if she replies to a message
without the message ID, she breaks threading for everybody else, too.

I'm sorry I missed the point about text/plain digests, though.  True
enough, in that case there's no need for Content-Type.

Steve

From dennisthetiger at chez-vrolet.net  Fri Mar 10 09:56:39 2017
From: dennisthetiger at chez-vrolet.net (Dennis Carr)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 06:56:39 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archives are returning HTTP 403 (Forbidden)
Message-ID: <20170310065639.8e6b867c3126c240c08077ca@chez-vrolet.net>

Of late, I've just received word that my archives are returning HTTP
403 - forbidden.  So nobody can see them.

Checking the file system, it doesn't appear to be a Linux issue
necessarily - permissions are set so anybody can read the directory. In
general, /var is set 755, /var/lib/mailman and /var/lib/mailman/archives
are set "sticky" for group and is root.list, and the archives
themselves are set 664 (and associated dirs are set 775 sticky), all
list.list.  

I'm a bit lost, and can use some direction here.  Help me out?

Thanks,

-Dennis Carr

From greg at headingup.net  Thu Mar  9 11:20:03 2017
From: greg at headingup.net (Greg Sims)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 08:20:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration Issue -- Only Some Members Receive
 Email?
Message-ID: <CAOXbGWGCg+XicWU9dSu6PHL+kH=6Hp+JPud-H=js0oi54r6ReQ@mail.gmail.com>

I recently migrated from RHEL 6 to CentOS 7.  The migration seemed to be
straight-forward by:

   - creating three mailman lists
   - for each of the list directories
      - copy files from the old to new server
      - list options and membership seems good

I have an issue and have run out of ideas.

[root at ray06 log]# cat /var/log/maillog.processed /var/log/maillog | grep
'Mar  9' | grep status=sent | wc
   6176  109377 1554218

The above looks at our maillogs for email that was sent on Mar 9.  The
answer is 6,176 emails sent.  We have over 20,000 subscribers total on our
three mailman lists.  It appears that only some of the subscribers are
receiving email.

I also looked at this from the perspective of one ISP -- gmail.com.

[root at ray06 email]# cat /var/log/maillog.processed /var/log/maillog | grep
'Mar  9' | grep status=sent | grep gmail.com | wc
    976   18544  254501
[root at ray06 email]# sudo /usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_members english-devotion
| grep gmail.com | wc
   4945    4945  110190

The maillogs show 976 gmail.com emails sent while one of our lists has
4,945 gmail.com members.  Again it appears that only some members are
receiving email.

I looked at /var/log/mailman/* and things seem normal.  I'm not sure how to
proceed from here.

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 10 10:45:40 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 07:45:40 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archives are returning HTTP 403 (Forbidden)
In-Reply-To: <20170310065639.8e6b867c3126c240c08077ca@chez-vrolet.net>
References: <20170310065639.8e6b867c3126c240c08077ca@chez-vrolet.net>
Message-ID: <752f7cee-0988-0a3b-584e-2815e8503a7a@msapiro.net>

On 03/10/2017 06:56 AM, Dennis Carr wrote:
> Of late, I've just received word that my archives are returning HTTP
> 403 - forbidden.  So nobody can see them.


If these are public archives, i.e. 'pipermail' URLs, see the Warning box
at <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node9.html>.

The /var/lib/mailman/archives/private directory itself must either be
o+x or owned by the web server user.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 10 11:07:51 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 08:07:51 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration Issue -- Only Some Members
 Receive Email?
In-Reply-To: <CAOXbGWGCg+XicWU9dSu6PHL+kH=6Hp+JPud-H=js0oi54r6ReQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOXbGWGCg+XicWU9dSu6PHL+kH=6Hp+JPud-H=js0oi54r6ReQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f5a68697-5d0f-a7e2-62ef-1d8e5bbc3b85@msapiro.net>

On 03/09/2017 08:20 AM, Greg Sims wrote:
> 
> I have an issue and have run out of ideas.
> 
> [root at ray06 log]# cat /var/log/maillog.processed /var/log/maillog | grep
> 'Mar  9' | grep status=sent | wc
>    6176  109377 1554218
> 
> The above looks at our maillogs for email that was sent on Mar 9.  The
> answer is 6,176 emails sent.  We have over 20,000 subscribers total on our
> three mailman lists.  It appears that only some of the subscribers are
> receiving email.


What's in Mailman's 'smtp' log? I.e. in the

<message-id> smtp to listname for nnnn recips, completed ...

entries is nnnn the expected number? If it is, this is not a Mailman
issue per se. It is an MTA/mail delivery issue.

Also, if Mailman is chunking recipients (delivering to the MTA with more
that one recipient per transaction), the MTA may also be delivering to
recipient MXs with more than one recipient per transaction so one
'status=sent' might be a delivery for more than one recipient. See the
post at
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2017-March/081959.html>
for some insight on this.


> I also looked at this from the perspective of one ISP -- gmail.com.
> 
> [root at ray06 email]# cat /var/log/maillog.processed /var/log/maillog | grep
> 'Mar  9' | grep status=sent | grep gmail.com | wc
>     976   18544  254501
> [root at ray06 email]# sudo /usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_members english-devotion
> | grep gmail.com | wc
>    4945    4945  110190
> 
> The maillogs show 976 gmail.com emails sent while one of our lists has
> 4,945 gmail.com members.  Again it appears that only some members are
> receiving email.


Counts of "missing" messages indicate that there is a problem but give
no clue as to what the problem might be.

What are a few of the status log messages for the ones that weren't
status=sent? Are they 'bounced' or 'deferred' and what is the server's
response?.

If the migration involved a new IP, large ISPs that are suddenly
receiving lots of mail from a previously unknown IP may be applying
throttling or greylisting.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dennisthetiger at chez-vrolet.net  Fri Mar 10 14:45:59 2017
From: dennisthetiger at chez-vrolet.net (Dennis Carr)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:45:59 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archives are returning HTTP 403 (Forbidden)
In-Reply-To: <752f7cee-0988-0a3b-584e-2815e8503a7a@msapiro.net>
References: <20170310065639.8e6b867c3126c240c08077ca@chez-vrolet.net>
 <752f7cee-0988-0a3b-584e-2815e8503a7a@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20170310114559.028f7173e5fb6bba46209c28@chez-vrolet.net>

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 07:45:40 -0800
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 03/10/2017 06:56 AM, Dennis Carr wrote:
> > Of late, I've just received word that my archives are returning HTTP
> > 403 - forbidden.  So nobody can see them.
> 
> 
> If these are public archives, i.e. 'pipermail' URLs, see the Warning
> box at <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node9.html>.
> 
> The /var/lib/mailman/archives/private directory itself must either be
> o+x or owned by the web server user.

Confirmed, they are indeed o+x and owned by www-data, group 'list'.  

-Dennis Carr

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 10 14:51:19 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:51:19 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archives are returning HTTP 403 (Forbidden)
In-Reply-To: <20170310114559.028f7173e5fb6bba46209c28@chez-vrolet.net>
References: <20170310065639.8e6b867c3126c240c08077ca@chez-vrolet.net>
 <752f7cee-0988-0a3b-584e-2815e8503a7a@msapiro.net>
 <20170310114559.028f7173e5fb6bba46209c28@chez-vrolet.net>
Message-ID: <d6bc6859-4319-519b-7cb2-b3e23e96cd63@msapiro.net>

On 3/10/17 11:45 AM, Dennis Carr wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 07:45:40 -0800
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>>
>> The /var/lib/mailman/archives/private directory itself must either be
>> o+x or owned by the web server user.
> 
> Confirmed, they are indeed o+x and owned by www-data, group 'list'.  


What's in your web server error log for these 403s?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From DonK at dbscompany.com  Fri Mar 10 17:32:08 2017
From: DonK at dbscompany.com (Don Keating)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 17:32:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Checking if I Can Post
Message-ID: <004801d299ee$27c035e0$7740a1a0$@dbscompany.com>

Jus' Checkin'

 

    >don<

803-312-4246 Phone

800-513-2321 Fax

 

 


From dennisthetiger at chez-vrolet.net  Fri Mar 10 23:22:07 2017
From: dennisthetiger at chez-vrolet.net (Dennis Carr)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 20:22:07 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archives are returning HTTP 403 (Forbidden)
In-Reply-To: <d6bc6859-4319-519b-7cb2-b3e23e96cd63@msapiro.net>
References: <20170310065639.8e6b867c3126c240c08077ca@chez-vrolet.net>
 <752f7cee-0988-0a3b-584e-2815e8503a7a@msapiro.net>
 <20170310114559.028f7173e5fb6bba46209c28@chez-vrolet.net>
 <d6bc6859-4319-519b-7cb2-b3e23e96cd63@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20170310202207.208107561659db303c8106ba@chez-vrolet.net>

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:51:19 -0800
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> What's in your web server error log for these 403s?

AH01630: client denied by server
configuration: /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/ffml/, referer:
http://www.chez-vrolet.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ffml

Time to do some debugging in that regard, methinks. Thanks for the
pointer, Mark.  Could, erm...could you point me to the documentation or
sample for a properly working Apache config?  =D

Now to stare down this Apache config....

-Dennis

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 10 23:52:58 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 20:52:58 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archives are returning HTTP 403 (Forbidden)
In-Reply-To: <20170310202207.208107561659db303c8106ba@chez-vrolet.net>
References: <20170310065639.8e6b867c3126c240c08077ca@chez-vrolet.net>
 <752f7cee-0988-0a3b-584e-2815e8503a7a@msapiro.net>
 <20170310114559.028f7173e5fb6bba46209c28@chez-vrolet.net>
 <d6bc6859-4319-519b-7cb2-b3e23e96cd63@msapiro.net>
 <20170310202207.208107561659db303c8106ba@chez-vrolet.net>
Message-ID: <5df612d1-ddf7-4718-99f2-fc59f2752100@msapiro.net>

On 03/10/2017 08:22 PM, Dennis Carr wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:51:19 -0800
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> 
>> What's in your web server error log for these 403s?
> 
> AH01630: client denied by server
> configuration: /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/ffml/, referer:
> http://www.chez-vrolet.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ffml


The usual cause of this is upgrade from apache 2.2 to 2.4 necessitating
replacement of directives like

        Order allow,deny
        Allow from all

by

        Require all granted


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From greg at headingup.net  Sat Mar 11 16:10:02 2017
From: greg at headingup.net (Greg Sims)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 13:10:02 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] %(confirmurl)s reference HTTPS?
Message-ID: <CAOXbGWHhFhPKeT0nonJtCMy1zArOG80oQt-a9c6NXxbE1h-UYQ@mail.gmail.com>

I am using %(confirmurl)s in verify.txt and unsub.txt.  In our current
setup, these substitution symbols generate urls with that use http://
protocol.  Is it possible for these variables to generate https:// protocol
instead?

Thanks, Greg

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Mar 11 19:11:00 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 16:11:00 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] %(confirmurl)s reference HTTPS?
In-Reply-To: <CAOXbGWHhFhPKeT0nonJtCMy1zArOG80oQt-a9c6NXxbE1h-UYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOXbGWHhFhPKeT0nonJtCMy1zArOG80oQt-a9c6NXxbE1h-UYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <859502b0-4dc8-b3e5-123c-d3e3ada033b4@msapiro.net>

On 03/11/2017 01:10 PM, Greg Sims wrote:
> I am using %(confirmurl)s in verify.txt and unsub.txt.  In our current
> setup, these substitution symbols generate urls with that use http://
> protocol.  Is it possible for these variables to generate https:// protocol
> instead?


Yes. See steps 2 and 3 at <https://wiki.list.org/x/17892007>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From kilbaha at gmail.com  Tue Mar 14 05:10:01 2017
From: kilbaha at gmail.com (Bill Healy)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 20:10:01 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscribe line missing
Message-ID: <CACKkQzmGOFBYsRdMXUio5sL2cowYRUnBat96-7m-5FWdXY1LNQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,

We are very new users of Mailman. Version 2.1.23

Our mailing list is made up of schools. Responsibilities within schools
change frequently so list members need to unsubscribe when someone takes
their job. Some members are reporting that the one click unsubscribe notice
at the end of emails is not there and that they have to write individually
to the list moderator to have their email removed. On the other hand, it is
obvious that some members are successfully using the one click unsubscribe.

Is there an explanation for this? Can anything be done about it?

Thanks in advance for any advice.


Bill Healy
CEO
Kilbaha Multimedia Publishing (Est. 1978)
Melbourne
Australia

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar 14 12:15:15 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 09:15:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscribe line missing
In-Reply-To: <CACKkQzmGOFBYsRdMXUio5sL2cowYRUnBat96-7m-5FWdXY1LNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACKkQzmGOFBYsRdMXUio5sL2cowYRUnBat96-7m-5FWdXY1LNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d3d294ca-9fc7-2ad5-2527-8a38cee1a55d@msapiro.net>

On 03/14/2017 02:10 AM, Bill Healy wrote:
> 
> Some members are reporting that the one click unsubscribe notice
> at the end of emails is not there and that they have to write individually
> to the list moderator to have their email removed. On the other hand, it is
> obvious that some members are successfully using the one click unsubscribe.
> 
> Is there an explanation for this? Can anything be done about it?


See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030707>

Note that instead of writing to some moderator's address or to
LISTNAME-owner at ..., they can just write to LISTNAME-leave at ... or
LISTNAME-unsubscribe at ... to unsubscribe themselves.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From terry.lund at gmail.com  Thu Mar 16 09:20:04 2017
From: terry.lund at gmail.com (Terry Lund)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:20:04 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC issue with Mailman List
Message-ID: <CA++scQA2kzN-U2c_gLvU++f8HQyQkYmrEpxZBxuRO-0ypu8HYA@mail.gmail.com>

We are getting the following error for one of our users in one of our
mailman lists. I've tried to figure out if one of the configuration options
in Privacy Rules can be used to address this issue, but I am afraid I am
not real clear on the implications of the relevent DMARC related
parameters. Any insight or assistance would be much appreciated.

Our configuration is that our web site integration with PayPal has PayPal
sending confirmation emails to a mailman list called treasurer-alias, so
that multiple people are aware of the PayPal transaction.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: MAILER-DAEMON at bounce.mail.unifiedlayer.com
To: treasurer-alias-bounces at catoctinareaturners.org
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: 16 Mar 2017 02:55:28 -0000
Subject: failure notice
Hi. This is the qmail-send program at bounce.mail.unifiedlayer.com.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

<28blcr28 at gmail.com>:
74.125.28.27 failed after I sent the message.
Remote host said: 550-5.7.1 Unauthenticated email from paypal.com is not
accepted due to domain's
550-5.7.1 DMARC policy. Please contact the administrator of paypal.com
 domain
550-5.7.1 if this was a legitimate mail. Please visit
550-5.7.1  https://support.google.com/mail/answer/2451690 to learn about the
550 5.7.1 DMARC initiative. j61si3837935plb.86 - gsmtp

--- Enclosed are the original headers of the message.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:
To:
Cc:
Bcc:
Date:
Subject:
(Body supressed)


Regards, and thanks in advance for any assistance.

-- 
Terry Lund
terry.lund at gmail.com

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 16 13:08:11 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:08:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC issue with Mailman List
In-Reply-To: <CA++scQA2kzN-U2c_gLvU++f8HQyQkYmrEpxZBxuRO-0ypu8HYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA++scQA2kzN-U2c_gLvU++f8HQyQkYmrEpxZBxuRO-0ypu8HYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <203d4f83-ba0e-58f2-551c-bc87dd41b58a@msapiro.net>

On 03/16/2017 06:20 AM, Terry Lund wrote:
> We are getting the following error for one of our users in one of our
> mailman lists. I've tried to figure out if one of the configuration options
> in Privacy Rules can be used to address this issue, but I am afraid I am
> not real clear on the implications of the relevent DMARC related
> parameters. Any insight or assistance would be much appreciated.
> 
> Our configuration is that our web site integration with PayPal has PayPal
> sending confirmation emails to a mailman list called treasurer-alias, so
> that multiple people are aware of the PayPal transaction.


PayPal.com publishes DMARC p=reject. Your treasurer-alias list makes
some message transformation such as adding a footer or subject prefix
that breaks PayPal's DKIM signature. Therefore recipient list member's
ISPs that honor DMARC will reject the message.

See <https://wiki.list.org/x/17891458> items 1) and 2) for ways to deal
with this. If your Mailman is 2.1.18+, I suggest setting Privacy
options... -> Sender filters -> dmarc_moderation_action to Munge From.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Fri Mar 17 00:53:53 2017
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 13:53:53 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscribe line missing
In-Reply-To: <d3d294ca-9fc7-2ad5-2527-8a38cee1a55d@msapiro.net>
References: <CACKkQzmGOFBYsRdMXUio5sL2cowYRUnBat96-7m-5FWdXY1LNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <d3d294ca-9fc7-2ad5-2527-8a38cee1a55d@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <22731.27617.88786.133298@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:
 > On 03/14/2017 02:10 AM, Bill Healy wrote:
 > > 
 > > Some members are reporting that the one click unsubscribe notice
 > > at the end of emails is not there and that they have to write individually
 > > to the list moderator to have their email removed. On the other hand, it is
 > > obvious that some members are successfully using the one click unsubscribe.
 > > 
 > > Is there an explanation for this? Can anything be done about it?
 > 
 > 
 > See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030707>

Besides the MUA issue, it's possible that the "no notice" subscribers
are subscribing to the digest, I think.  If they have a reasonably
smart MUA it can treat the digest as a folder and display the messages
individually.  In that case the subscriber probably won't see the
footer, which I believe is attached at the bottom of the digest, not
at the bottom of each message in the digest.  (Mark, can you confirm?)

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 17 01:10:03 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 22:10:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscribe line missing
In-Reply-To: <22731.27617.88786.133298@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CACKkQzmGOFBYsRdMXUio5sL2cowYRUnBat96-7m-5FWdXY1LNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <d3d294ca-9fc7-2ad5-2527-8a38cee1a55d@msapiro.net>
 <22731.27617.88786.133298@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <337be976-c369-e243-574f-e403204eb009@msapiro.net>

On 03/16/2017 09:53 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> Besides the MUA issue, it's possible that the "no notice" subscribers
> are subscribing to the digest, I think.  If they have a reasonably
> smart MUA it can treat the digest as a folder and display the messages
> individually.  In that case the subscriber probably won't see the
> footer, which I believe is attached at the bottom of the digest, not
> at the bottom of each message in the digest.  (Mark, can you confirm?)


There are a few things going on depending on digest format. In a MIME
format digest the boiler plate, the digest_header, the TOC, the
individual messages and the digest_footer are all separate MIME parts.

In the RFC 1153 compliant plain text digest (beginning in MM 2.1.15),
the digest_footer is added as a separate message with Subject: Digest
Footer, so it should be visible in an exploded digest.

However, all this is moot as digest headers and footers cannot be
personalized so it is not possible to put a "one click" unsubscribe link
in either format of digest.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org  Fri Mar 17 07:35:42 2017
From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 11:35:42 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Email services in and out
Message-ID: <AM5PR0401MB26285FE070E2CEE343F0E93BC5390@AM5PR0401MB2628.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Hi,

I have a couple of issues with our Mailman setup not really with Mailman but the inbound and outbound mail delivery, and wondered if anyone could recommend a service which would help me.

I am getting more and more spam through the system, a lot of it is rejected with SpamAssassin, but stuff sometimes gets through from a forged subscriber's email address.  There is also backscatter from the various subscribe addresses etc.  I would like to try and cut this down if possible, looking at inbound antispam services that work with Mailman domains.

I could also do with getting an outbound email service which has good delivery rates to the big ISPs.  This is working well for me right now, but there are occasional issues where one provider stops receiving the messages altogether, and it can take time to deal with this.

In short, does anyone have recommendations for AV/AS email solutions that work inbound and outbound that play nice with Mailman?

Thanks.
Andrew.

From cpz at tuunq.com  Sat Mar 18 01:07:26 2017
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 22:07:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Limit messages per user?
Message-ID: <a6910b52-6bcc-248a-c85b-0529ab9454f2@tuunq.com>

Hi,

Just asking for completeness--

AFAIK there is no mechanism in either mailman 2 or 3 to limit the number of 
messages per day originating from a given member. True?

A list I'm on (but don't manage), had something like 700(!) in 30 minutes 
from a buggy auto-responder. That was shut down, but the damage was done. 
Now people are screaming about how poorly the list is managed, etc, etc.

Will even spam-assassin cover this?

Thanks,

z!

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Mar 18 01:36:39 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 22:36:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Limit messages per user?
In-Reply-To: <a6910b52-6bcc-248a-c85b-0529ab9454f2@tuunq.com>
References: <a6910b52-6bcc-248a-c85b-0529ab9454f2@tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <40d91a93-5230-2a3e-f16c-a9692d5d416f@msapiro.net>

On 03/17/2017 10:07 PM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> 
> AFAIK there is no mechanism in either mailman 2 or 3 to limit the number
> of messages per day originating from a given member. True?


Since Mailman 2.1.21, there is this (from NEWS)

>     - Thanks to Jim Popovitch there is now a feature to automatically turn
>       on moderation for a malicious list member who attempts to flood a list
>       with spam.  See the details for the Privacy options ... -> Sender
>       filters -> member_verbosity_threshold and member_verbosity_interval
>       settings in the web admin UI and the documentation in Defaults.py for
>       the DEFAULT_MEMBER_VERBOSITY_* and VERBOSE_CLEAN_LIMIT settings for
>       information.

This has not been ported to MM 3.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cpz at tuunq.com  Sat Mar 18 01:40:35 2017
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 22:40:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Limit messages per user?
In-Reply-To: <40d91a93-5230-2a3e-f16c-a9692d5d416f@msapiro.net>
References: <a6910b52-6bcc-248a-c85b-0529ab9454f2@tuunq.com>
 <40d91a93-5230-2a3e-f16c-a9692d5d416f@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <062c5dc0-7c84-d89a-36e5-c33b6ad1a346@tuunq.com>

On 3/17/2017 10:36 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Since Mailman 2.1.21, there is this (from NEWS)

Perfect, thanks. Maybe some day I'll read the release notes and news files 
again :).

z!


From mrbrklyn at panix.com  Sat Mar 18 03:11:28 2017
From: mrbrklyn at panix.com (Ruben Safir)
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 03:11:28 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list of subscribers
Message-ID: <d4bd4cf3-f349-3ee1-c990-458ddd237fea@panix.com>

where is the list of subscribers maintained on the file system.


-- 
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Mar 18 11:49:47 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 08:49:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list of subscribers
In-Reply-To: <d4bd4cf3-f349-3ee1-c990-458ddd237fea@panix.com>
References: <d4bd4cf3-f349-3ee1-c990-458ddd237fea@panix.com>
Message-ID: <ea47d6a7-f832-9be7-a9ed-11316da2fc16@msapiro.net>

On 03/18/2017 12:11 AM, Ruben Safir wrote:
> where is the list of subscribers maintained on the file system.


If you are using the standard MemberAdaptor, which you almost certainly
are, it's in the lists/LISTNAME/config.pck file along with all the other
list configuration info.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jdd at dodin.org  Mon Mar 20 13:53:15 2017
From: jdd at dodin.org (jdd)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 18:53:15 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] compare lists setup
Message-ID: <03792505-dfee-8289-a64e-7406ceb65118@dodin.org>

Hello :-)

Gmail recipient anti spam filters get me mad.

After some work, I have one list that reaches the gmail recipients, good!

but I have an other list that get bounces. same server, same domain.

I guess I forgot some setup on the other list

comparing on the web interface is very difficult.

is there a way to read these setups directly on the server in a config 
file where I could make a diff?

thanks
jdd

From phirayam at fredhutch.org  Tue Mar 21 11:54:50 2017
From: phirayam at fredhutch.org (Hirayama, Pat)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 15:54:50 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] compare lists setup
In-Reply-To: <03792505-dfee-8289-a64e-7406ceb65118@dodin.org>
References: <03792505-dfee-8289-a64e-7406ceb65118@dodin.org>
Message-ID: <4531_1490111701_58D14CD5_4531_11555_1_AE5F7147890F3544BFCDB1594A4329C901281DA228@adama.fhcrc.org>

I think that config_list is what you want:

config_list -o list1config list1
config_list -o list2config list2
diff list1config list2config

---
[root at lists ~]# config_list
Configure a list from a text file description.

Usage: config_list [options] listname

Options:
    --inputfile filename
    -i filename
        Configure the list by assigning each module-global variable in the
        file to an attribute on the list object, then saving the list.  The
        named file is loaded with execfile() and must be legal Python code.
        Any variable that isn't already an attribute of the list object is
        ignored (a warning message is printed).  See also the -c option.

        A special variable named `mlist' is put into the globals during the
        execfile, which is bound to the actual MailList object.  This lets you
        do all manner of bizarre thing to the list object, but BEWARE!  Using
        this can severely (and possibly irreparably) damage your mailing list!

    --outputfile filename
    -o filename
        Instead of configuring the list, print out a list's configuration
        variables in a format suitable for input using this script.  In this
        way, you can easily capture the configuration settings for a
        particular list and imprint those settings on another list.  filename
        is the file to output the settings to.  If filename is `-', standard
        out is used.

    --checkonly
    -c
        With this option, the modified list is not actually changed.  Only
        useful with -i.

    --verbose
    -v
        Print the name of each attribute as it is being changed.  Only useful
        with -i.

    --help
    -h
        Print this help message and exit.

The options -o and -i are mutually exclusive.


One of -i or -o is required
----
				-p

--
Pat Hirayama
Systems Engineer / 206.667.4856 / phirayam at fredhutch.org / Fred Hutch / Cures Start Here 
CIT | Advancing IT and Data Services to Accelerate the Elimination of Disease

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
> bounces+phirayam=fredhutch.org at python.org] On Behalf Of jdd
> Sent: Monday, March 20, 2017 10:53 AM
> To: mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] compare lists setup
> 
> Hello :-)
> 
> Gmail recipient anti spam filters get me mad.
> 
> After some work, I have one list that reaches the gmail recipients, good!
> 
> but I have an other list that get bounces. same server, same domain.
> 
> I guess I forgot some setup on the other list
> 
> comparing on the web interface is very difficult.
> 
> is there a way to read these setups directly on the server in a config
> file where I could make a diff?
> 
> thanks
> jdd
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
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> 3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_mailman-
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> Mailman FAQ: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-
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> &s=Uj6rRj8h-rxKR-PMyg-kA91_Np18W-NfaBJ0BSte4rs&e=
> Security Policy: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-
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> &s=xI7O1DkQtfX722dVADWdV3UUVufYUDWt9DQpvWfn5ow&e=
> Searchable Archives: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-
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> Unsubscribe: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
> 3A__mail.python.org_mailman_options_mailman-2Dusers_phirayam-
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> iG1QSVFTbfjX2BOlwYPvRF0HoRKpntjpux1bshc&e=

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Tue Mar 21 13:19:09 2017
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 02:19:09 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] DMARC issue with Mailman List
In-Reply-To: <203d4f83-ba0e-58f2-551c-bc87dd41b58a@msapiro.net>
References: <CA++scQA2kzN-U2c_gLvU++f8HQyQkYmrEpxZBxuRO-0ypu8HYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <203d4f83-ba0e-58f2-551c-bc87dd41b58a@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <22737.24717.346649.63879@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > > Our configuration is that our web site integration with PayPal has PayPal
 > > sending confirmation emails to a mailman list called treasurer-alias, so
 > > that multiple people are aware of the PayPal transaction.
 > 
 > PayPal.com publishes DMARC p=reject. Your treasurer-alias list makes
 > some message transformation such as adding a footer or subject prefix
 > that breaks PayPal's DKIM signature. Therefore recipient list member's
 > ISPs that honor DMARC will reject the message.
 > 
 > See <https://wiki.list.org/x/17891458> items 1) and 2) for ways to deal
 > with this. If your Mailman is 2.1.18+, I suggest setting Privacy
 > options... -> Sender filters -> dmarc_moderation_action to Munge From.

I recommend against that, since this is exactly the transactional
mailflow that DMARC "p=reject" was designed for.  Munge From makes it
difficult-to-impossible to verify mail apparently from PayPal without
ARC, which probably is not available on your site yet.

On the other hand, I suppose that there are few members of
treasurer-alias, and they would probably be willing to accept this
mailflow without the usual Subject tags and footer.  So the annoyance
level should not be huge if they were omitted.  So, I recommend that
you configure your list not to touch the Subject and body instead.

Steve

From jdd at dodin.org  Tue Mar 21 15:02:01 2017
From: jdd at dodin.org (jdd)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 20:02:01 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] compare lists setup
In-Reply-To: <AE5F7147890F3544BFCDB1594A4329C901281DA228@adama.fhcrc.org>
References: <03792505-dfee-8289-a64e-7406ceb65118@dodin.org>
 <AE5F7147890F3544BFCDB1594A4329C901281DA228@adama.fhcrc.org>
Message-ID: <8ca2e885-1959-bb80-e604-20a35beb56cd@dodin.org>

Le 21/03/2017 ? 16:54, Hirayama, Pat a ?crit :
> I think that config_list is what you want:
>
> config_list -o list1config list1
> config_list -o list2config list2
> diff list1config list2config

thanks, it's exactly what I needed:-)

jdd


From jhs at berklix.com  Tue Mar 21 20:38:47 2017
From: jhs at berklix.com (Julian H. Stacey)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 01:38:47 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] compare lists setup
In-Reply-To: Your message "Tue, 21 Mar 2017 15:54:50 +0000."
 <4531_1490111701_58D14CD5_4531_11555_1_AE5F7147890F3544BFCDB1594A4329C901281DA228@adama.fhcrc.org>
Message-ID: <201703220038.v2M0clLJ098725@fire.js.berklix.net>

"Hirayama, Pat" wrote:
> I think that config_list is what you want:
> 
> config_list -o list1config list1
> config_list -o list2config list2
> diff list1config list2config

Thanks to jdd for asking, & Pat for answering, 
I too am using this to debug a troublesome list list.

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian Stacey, BSD Linux Unix Sys Eng Consultant Munich
 Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable.
 http://berklix.eu/brexit/#stolen_votes  http://berklix.eu/brexit/#eu_passports

From jdd at dodin.org  Wed Mar 22 03:37:05 2017
From: jdd at dodin.org (jdd)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:37:05 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] compare lists setup
In-Reply-To: <201703220038.v2M0clLJ098725@fire.js.berklix.net>
References: <201703220038.v2M0clLJ098725@fire.js.berklix.net>
Message-ID: <473b57ba-7da7-139f-5239-806a63a0a75e@dodin.org>

Le 22/03/2017 ? 01:38, Julian H. Stacey a ?crit :
> "Hirayama, Pat" wrote:
>> I think that config_list is what you want:
>>
>> config_list -o list1config list1
>> config_list -o list2config list2
>> diff list1config list2config
>
> Thanks to jdd for asking, & Pat for answering,
> I too am using this to debug a troublesome list list.
>

and if you want to get rid of comments

http://dodin.info/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Doc.AfficherUnFichierSansLesCommentaires

jdd


From karrageorgiou.giannis at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 22 11:18:20 2017
From: karrageorgiou.giannis at yahoo.com (karrageorgiou.giannis at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:18:20 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] an unrelated site's (cgi) access to mailman cmdline
 tools
References: <1413687555.832793.1490195900607.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1413687555.832793.1490195900607@mail.yahoo.com>

dear mailman team,

I have a cgi program running under a site that
is NOT the one hosting the mailman's web 
interface
(i.e. both mail.[domain] (mailman) and www.[domain]
are apache's virtual domains in the same system, 
but under DIFFERENT user/group directives)

The cgi program must generate userinfo lists 
taking the email parts live from the list_members 
stdout; when the various lists/*/config.pck are 
world readable it works fine; but when their
permissions are reset/recreated, it breaks.

Notice that I am not talking about the group
permissions, but world's. I even tried setting
an acl giving the cgi/httpd user read permissions
but again they get lost.

since there is no way to have the main site 
under mailman's group, is there a way to 
make mailman processes not ruin the world or 
acl permissions on the */config.pck?

(I mean natively, without resorting to
suid wrappers or sudo tricks)

thanks beforehand for any answer

giannis

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar 22 13:24:21 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 10:24:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] an unrelated site's (cgi) access to mailman
 cmdline tools
In-Reply-To: <1413687555.832793.1490195900607@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1413687555.832793.1490195900607.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1413687555.832793.1490195900607@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2f5ff841-03f0-24bb-ac1e-41d7fe6338de@msapiro.net>

On 03/22/2017 08:18 AM, karrageorgiou.giannis--- via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> I have a cgi program running under a site that
> is NOT the one hosting the mailman's web 
> interface
> (i.e. both mail.[domain] (mailman) and www.[domain]
> are apache's virtual domains in the same system, 
> but under DIFFERENT user/group directives)


OK


> The cgi program must generate userinfo lists 
> taking the email parts live from the list_members 
> stdout; when the various lists/*/config.pck are 
> world readable it works fine; but when their
> permissions are reset/recreated, it breaks.
> 
> Notice that I am not talking about the group
> permissions, but world's. I even tried setting
> an acl giving the cgi/httpd user read permissions
> but again they get lost.


This seems like a bad idea anyway. Does every list on your server have
public archives and public list rosters?

Anyone who can access a list's config.pck has access to the roster and
the list passwords for all members. It seems making those files world
readable is a very bad idea.


> since there is no way to have the main site 
> under mailman's group, is there a way to 
> make mailman processes not ruin the world or 
> acl permissions on the */config.pck?


Instead of that, just change the owner of the relevant Mailman files to
the web server user of the other domain. This should allow that apache
virtual domain to access the files, and as far as I know, no Mailman
process will change the owner of these files and it won't matter for
access from the mailman virtual domain because that's all controlled by
group.

You still will need to ensure that arbitrary visitors to the 'other'
domain aren't able to retrieve those files, i.e. they are only
accessible via your cgi and not via other URLs, but that should not be hard.

You may also be interested in the 'members.c' program attached to
<https://wiki.list.org/x/4030648>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From zalezny.niezalezny at gmail.com  Wed Mar 22 15:13:37 2017
From: zalezny.niezalezny at gmail.com (Zalezny Niezalezny)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:13:37 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to automatic update aliases and virtual maps in
 Postfix ?
Message-ID: <CAKPGuG8+T6DahG-9jWBvpF9AwGzr7ZSXHrtD8e_LcsSGWO2eYQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

maybe somebody will be able to support me here.

I have a Mailman 2 and Postfix 3.10 on Ubuntu. Since few hours I`m trying
to configure automatic update of /etc/mailman/alias and
/etc/mailman/virtual-mailman during creation of the new mailing list.

In my Postfix main.cf I have configured everything as it was described in
the documentation:

alias_map = hash:/etc/mailman/aliases
alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases

virtual_alias_maps = hash:/etc/mailman/virtual-mailman
newaliases_path = /usr/bin/newaliases     (in redhat I have
"newaliases.postfix" is this the same ?)


In my /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py

I have configured everything as in the documentation, for automatic update
MTA='Postifx'.
E-mail and URL was also configured, but its not the point.


When I`m creating new mailing list, I would like to force Mailman to create
automaticaly aliases in

/etc/mailman/aliases
/etc/mailman/virtual-mailman


How to do it correctly. On Redhat everything is running but on Ubuntu...
not.



I will appreciate Your support.


With kind regards

Zalezny

From mark at tafn.org.uk  Wed Mar 22 15:50:15 2017
From: mark at tafn.org.uk (mark at tafn.org.uk)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 19:50:15 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman list help
Message-ID: <003001d2a345$86f32bc0$94d98340$@tafn.org.uk>

Hi all I have a list setup with a email forwarder to 
The problem is if any non-member emails the list I have to aloud it is there
any way we can have non-members just emailing the list also need to
moderated it as well ie block any email address
Mark.


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar 22 17:18:34 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 14:18:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to automatic update aliases and virtual
 maps in Postfix ?
In-Reply-To: <CAKPGuG8+T6DahG-9jWBvpF9AwGzr7ZSXHrtD8e_LcsSGWO2eYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKPGuG8+T6DahG-9jWBvpF9AwGzr7ZSXHrtD8e_LcsSGWO2eYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ddd6a669-6f71-1374-6871-a70b85ace07f@msapiro.net>

On 03/22/2017 12:13 PM, Zalezny Niezalezny wrote:
> 
> When I`m creating new mailing list, I would like to force Mailman to create
> automaticaly aliases in
> 
> /etc/mailman/aliases
> /etc/mailman/virtual-mailman
> 
> 
> How to do it correctly. On Redhat everything is running but on Ubuntu...
> not.


I think the issue is where the files are located. In Ubuntu, the files
(aliases, aliases.db, virtual-mailman and virtual-mailman.db) will (I
think) be in /var/lib/mailman/data/.

See if in fact, those files exist and are updated when you create a list
or run Mailman's bin/genaliases.

Those files are the ones you want to point to in your Postfix config.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar 22 17:23:50 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 14:23:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman list help
In-Reply-To: <003001d2a345$86f32bc0$94d98340$@tafn.org.uk>
References: <003001d2a345$86f32bc0$94d98340$@tafn.org.uk>
Message-ID: <7c9a2372-d62b-4609-c36d-b159c8ddfb9c@msapiro.net>

On 03/22/2017 12:50 PM, mark at tafn.org.uk wrote:
> Hi all I have a list setup with a email forwarder to 
> The problem is if any non-member emails the list I have to aloud it is there
> any way we can have non-members just emailing the list also need to
> moderated it as well ie block any email address
> Mark.


I'm having trouble understanding what it is that you are asking, but if
you want to allow posts from non-members to go to the list without
moderation, in the list's web admin UI set Privacy options... -> Sender
filters -> generic_nonmember_action to Accept.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jhs at berklix.com  Wed Mar 22 18:39:37 2017
From: jhs at berklix.com (Julian H. Stacey)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 23:39:37 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] compare lists setup
In-Reply-To: Your message "Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:37:05 +0100."
 <473b57ba-7da7-139f-5239-806a63a0a75e@dodin.org>
Message-ID: <201703222239.v2MMdb3t099439@fire.js.berklix.net>

jdd wrote:
> Le 22/03/2017 ? 01:38, Julian H. Stacey a ?crit :
> > "Hirayama, Pat" wrote:
> >> I think that config_list is what you want:
> >> config_list -o list1config list1
> >> config_list -o list2config list2
> >> diff list1config list2config
> > Thanks to jdd for asking, & Pat for answering,
> > I too am using this to debug a troublesome list list.
> and if you want to get rid of comments
> http://dodin.info/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Doc.AfficherUnFichierSansLesCommentaires

Thanks, Contains:
 cat /etc/sysconfig/cron | egrep -v "^[[:space:]]*$|^#"
 egrep -v "^$|^#" file

Testing with csh, " was not delimiting (Illegal variable name) so '
 cat /etc/crontab | egrep -v '^[[:space:]]*$|^#'

I tried to get an ideally short RE but man egrep is terse, & lacks examples:
https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=egrep&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+11.0-RELEASE+and+Ports&arch=default&format=html

 cd /usr/local/mailman/lists
 config_list -o - bg | egrep -v '^[[:space:]]*#|^$'    # OK, but not ideal
 config_list -o - bg | egrep -v '^[[:space:]]*#|$'     # Empty.
 config_list -o - bg | egrep -v '^[[:space:]]*[#$]'    # Blank lines remain.
 config_list -o - bg | egrep -v '^[[:space:]]*[#$]|^$' # OK
 config_list -o - bg | egrep -v '^[[:space:]]{0,}[#$]' # Blank lines remain.

Does some other Unix have a better worded or more verbose RE definition,
more examples ?

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian Stacey, BSD Linux Unix Sys Eng Consultant Munich
 Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable.
 http://berklix.eu/brexit/#stolen_votes  http://berklix.eu/brexit/#eu_passports

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar 22 19:13:17 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 16:13:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] compare lists setup
In-Reply-To: <201703222239.v2MMdb3t099439@fire.js.berklix.net>
References: <201703222239.v2MMdb3t099439@fire.js.berklix.net>
Message-ID: <2561b47e-edb0-c156-097d-3f79ddcc6729@msapiro.net>

On 03/22/2017 03:39 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> 
>  cd /usr/local/mailman/lists
>  config_list -o - bg | egrep -v '^[[:space:]]*#|^$'    # OK, but not ideal
>  config_list -o - bg | egrep -v '^[[:space:]]*#|$'     # Empty.

Because '^[[:space:]]*#|$' matches '^[[:space:]]*#' or '$' i.e.
everything with an end of line


>  config_list -o - bg | egrep -v '^[[:space:]]*[#$]'    # Blank lines remain.

Because [#$] is a character class matching literally '3' or '$' not end
of line.


>  config_list -o - bg | egrep -v '^[[:space:]]*[#$]|^$' # OK
>  config_list -o - bg | egrep -v '^[[:space:]]{0,}[#$]' # Blank lines remain.
>

As above.

> Does some other Unix have a better worded or more verbose RE definition,


You don't need to be concerned about leading whitespace because
config_list -o doesn't write comments with lkeading whitespace.

config_list -o - bg | egrep -v '^(#|$)'

which matches and ignores any line that starts with # or is empty. This
is similar to your '^[[:space:]]*#|^$' example without the unneeded
[[:space:]]* except it says 'beginning of the line followed by either #
or end of line' instead of 'beginning of line followed by # or begining
of line followed by end of line'

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From zalezny.niezalezny at gmail.com  Thu Mar 23 07:18:02 2017
From: zalezny.niezalezny at gmail.com (Zalezny Niezalezny)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 07:18:02 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] hiding/rewriting subscriber addresses
Message-ID: <CAKPGuG_UyB3UebQGin16vL-v_6AGVVVZT48WBid1A+PUqEkowA@mail.gmail.com>

HI,

is it possible to hide or rewrite subscriber E-mails ?

So for example, user A posting a question on the list. User B answering,
but user A is not able to see user B E-mail address. Will it be possible ?



Cheers

Zalezny

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Thu Mar 23 08:39:23 2017
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 08:39:23 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] hiding/rewriting subscriber addresses
In-Reply-To: <CAKPGuG_UyB3UebQGin16vL-v_6AGVVVZT48WBid1A+PUqEkowA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKPGuG_UyB3UebQGin16vL-v_6AGVVVZT48WBid1A+PUqEkowA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f3a952cd-c5be-4cdd-39a3-b8396045a8c4@Damon-Family.org>

On 3/23/17 7:18 AM, Zalezny Niezalezny wrote:
> HI,
>
> is it possible to hide or rewrite subscriber E-mails ?
>
> So for example, user A posting a question on the list. User B answering,
> but user A is not able to see user B E-mail address. Will it be possible ?
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
Have you looked at the Anonymous List option on the General Options 
page. It makes all messages be From: the list instead of the original 
poster.


-- 
Richard Damon


From Mike at demenis.co.uk  Wed Mar 22 17:53:06 2017
From: Mike at demenis.co.uk (Michael Demenis)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 21:53:06 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] when emailing my list the email is delivered as an
 attachment to a blank email
In-Reply-To: <60E68A3E-C979-4A7E-ADDB-CBDC40372738@contoso.com>
References: <60E68A3E-C979-4A7E-ADDB-CBDC40372738@contoso.com>
Message-ID: <AC292428-8F3C-4BEC-B8A1-67D0A5B080F8@demenis.co.uk>


Hi

When sending an email to any of my newly created lists the email is delivered as a *subject*.eml file attached to an email that is otherwise blank except for the email footer.

This happens whether I send text emails, html emails, I?ve read a few articles that have led me to the content filtering options, played around with a few of these options and not changed any of this behaviour, this still happens when content filter is disabled.

This appears to be different from most user?s issues where the footer becomes the attachment, I?m getting the footer but the body is the attachment. If I set there to be no footer I still get the body as an attachment. In fact I?d much rather have the issue others have seen.


I?m sure this is a simple setting somewhere but I can?t seem to find where it is, any help would be greatly appreciated. It would be much clearer for my users if these appeared as an email, rather than an attachment.



Thanks in advance


Mike


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 23 12:32:01 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 09:32:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] when emailing my list the email is delivered as
 an attachment to a blank email
In-Reply-To: <AC292428-8F3C-4BEC-B8A1-67D0A5B080F8@demenis.co.uk>
References: <60E68A3E-C979-4A7E-ADDB-CBDC40372738@contoso.com>
 <AC292428-8F3C-4BEC-B8A1-67D0A5B080F8@demenis.co.uk>
Message-ID: <0c7dfdc6-421d-656e-796f-562728dfc871@msapiro.net>

On 03/22/2017 02:53 PM, Michael Demenis wrote:
> 
> When sending an email to any of my newly created lists the email is delivered as a *subject*.eml file attached to an email that is otherwise blank except for the email footer.


See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030707>. Note the last sentence of the 5th
paragraph "The same issue applies to msg_header, if any, although in
this case, some MUA's may display the header as the message and the body
as an attachment."

I suspect msg_header is not truly empty. I.e., it contains some
whitespace. If this is the casefor all newly created lists, possibly
DEFAULT_MSG_HEADER is set to something other than the null string ("")
in mm_cfg.py.

In the list's admin UI at Non-digest options -> msg_header, click in the
text box, select all, delete and Submit Your Changes.

This may help.


> This happens whether I send text emails, html emails, I?ve read a few articles that have led me to the content filtering options, played around with a few of these options and not changed any of this behaviour, this still happens when content filter is disabled.


You are probably never actually sending a plain text only email. If you
were, headers and footers would be added inline, not as separate MIME parts.

Also, turning content filtering off will not help. Content filtering
with collapse_alternatives and convert_html_to_plaintext both set to Yes
will help as long as your MUA is not adding a non-plain text signature
to your posts.	


> This appears to be different from most user?s issues where the footer becomes the attachment, I?m getting the footer but the body is the attachment. If I set there to be no footer I still get the body as an attachment. In fact I?d much rather have the issue others have seen.


It is not clear to me exactly what is going on that would display the
msg_footer as the body and the message as an attachment. Are you sure
that what you are calling the footer is not actually msg_header? It
would help if you could post or send me an example raw message as
received from the list - i.e. the actual raw message with all headers,
and MIME sub-part headers intact.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dhoffmann at uwalumni.com  Fri Mar 24 12:10:23 2017
From: dhoffmann at uwalumni.com (Dominik Hoffmann)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 12:10:23 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] =?utf-8?q?What=E2=80=99s_up=3A_Sitelist_is_missin?=
 =?utf-8?q?g=3A_mailman?=
Message-ID: <79053005-5E7D-4ABD-A87F-6E5312A85F60@uwalumni.com>

My error log shows entries like this

Mar 22 16:52:28 2017 mailmanctl(175): Site list is missing: mailman 
Mar 22 16:52:28 2017 (175) Site list is missing: mailman

I found directions on how to fix this at <https://www.askdavetaylor.com/why_is_mailman_complaining_site_list_is_missing_mailman/>.

The question I have for you guys are

1. How might this have happened?

2. What is the purpose of the mailman list.

From mb at bw-networx.net  Fri Mar 24 06:53:54 2017
From: mb at bw-networx.net (Markus Bobe)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 10:53:54 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Why is a Mail stuck in qfiles/bad
Message-ID: <72d059dc2bf34f78a7704e3348573747@Hagrid2012.lan.bw-networx.net>

Hi!

I have a mailinglist running for several years now, but today a mail keeps getting stuck in qfiles/bad/ and I can't find a reason (or one I don't understand).

The error log says:

Mar 24 11:11:18 2017 (18258) .bak file max count, preserving file: 1490350277.837968+0696655d510e3bad34fee55513eec06ed9b3413c

and when I do a dumpdb -p:

[----- start pickle file -----]
<----- start object 1 ----->

[MAIL CONTENT]

<----- start object 2 ----->
{   '_bak_count': 3,
    '_parsemsg': True,
    'listname': 'newsletter1',
    'received_time': 1490350277.837968,
    'tolist': 1,
    'version': 3}
[----- end pickle file -----]

Can someone tell me the meaning of  ".bak file max count"? I had no success reading the FAQ or searching the mailinglist archive.

Mailman Version is: 2.1.15

Thanks in advance,
Markus



From luscheina at yahoo.de  Thu Mar 23 12:05:14 2017
From: luscheina at yahoo.de (Christian F Buser)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 17:05:14 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Weird response from a subscriber's mail server
Message-ID: <20170323170514823598.ca92f5ba@yahoo.de>

Hi all 

I have a new problem with our mailing list (Mailman 2.1.23 on cPanel 62.0.17 where a subscriber's provider rejects messages from the list. Not the usual way, where the message simply bounces; here the original sender of the list message receives a notification as shown in the attachment. 

The receiving address is a subscriber of the list for a long time, but these messages started to show up just today. 

What can I do to solve the problem? 

Thank you, Christian 
-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)      
Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 24 13:37:44 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 10:37:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Weird response from a subscriber's mail server
In-Reply-To: <20170323170514823598.ca92f5ba@yahoo.de>
References: <20170323170514823598.ca92f5ba@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <9abfdb69-0c27-cda1-daaa-005ef0ff2701@msapiro.net>

On 03/23/2017 09:05 AM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> I have a new problem with our mailing list (Mailman 2.1.23 on cPanel 62.0.17 where a subscriber's provider rejects messages from the list. Not the usual way, where the message simply bounces; here the original sender of the list message receives a notification as shown in the attachment. 
> 
> The receiving address is a subscriber of the list for a long time, but these messages started to show up just today. 


The OP had an attached screenshot which was removed by this lists
content filtering.

The screenshot was from MHS internet hosting <http://www.mhs.ch/> and
appears to be from a spam filter saying (in German and English) that the
received mail appeared to be spam and offering a "release" button
"Please click on the button below to identify your message as a regular
message".


> What can I do to solve the problem? 


Have the recipient whose ISP is generating these messages contact her
ISP and ask them how to whitelist this list mail, and if she can't do
it, remove her from the list.

In the mean time, if your list is digestable, you could switch the
subscriber to digests. The digests may still produce the notices, but
they will go to the list owner.

Also, have people receiving these tried clicking the "release" button.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 24 15:11:26 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 12:11:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 
 =?utf-8?q?What=E2=80=99s_up=3A_Sitelist_is_missi?=
 =?utf-8?q?ng=3A_mailman?=
In-Reply-To: <79053005-5E7D-4ABD-A87F-6E5312A85F60@uwalumni.com>
References: <79053005-5E7D-4ABD-A87F-6E5312A85F60@uwalumni.com>
Message-ID: <7c1902c5-c27b-ffaf-67fa-18b018ac0d80@msapiro.net>

On 03/24/2017 09:10 AM, Dominik Hoffmann wrote:
> My error log shows entries like this
> 
> Mar 22 16:52:28 2017 mailmanctl(175): Site list is missing: mailman 
> Mar 22 16:52:28 2017 (175) Site list is missing: mailman
...

> The question I have for you guys are
> 
> 1. How might this have happened?


The list got deleted. I have no clue as to how. Exactly when did these
messages start appearing in the error log? What other messages are
logged in various logs at times between the previous Mailman (re)start
and then?


> 2. What is the purpose of the mailman list.


It is a long standing requirement of Mailman 2.1. Its address is exposed
as a help/info address on the web admin and listinfo overview pages. Its
-request address is the From: address in password reminders and it's
-bounces address is the bounce address of last resort.

It goes away (along with password reminders) in MM 3.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dhoffmann at uwalumni.com  Fri Mar 24 15:32:18 2017
From: dhoffmann at uwalumni.com (Dominik Hoffmann)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 15:32:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 
 =?utf-8?q?What=E2=80=99s_up=3A_Sitelist_is_missi?=
 =?utf-8?q?ng=3A_mailman?=
In-Reply-To: <7c1902c5-c27b-ffaf-67fa-18b018ac0d80@msapiro.net>
References: <79053005-5E7D-4ABD-A87F-6E5312A85F60@uwalumni.com>
 <7c1902c5-c27b-ffaf-67fa-18b018ac0d80@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <E17FCECC-57F1-4D36-AFB6-F60FA0C46A28@uwalumni.com>

Thanks, Mark!

As for more details on the error, I found the following

bounce: no errors
posts: no errors
qrunner:

Mar 20 11:25:11 2017 (291) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 299, sig: None, sts: 15, class: CommandRunner, slice: 1/1) 
Mar 20 11:25:11 2017 (291) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 301, sig: None, sts: 15, class: NewsRunner, slice: 1/1) 
Mar 20 11:25:11 2017 (291) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 298, sig: None, sts: 15, class: BounceRunner, slice: 1/1) 
Mar 20 11:25:11 2017 (291) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 304, sig: None, sts: 15, class: RetryRunner, slice: 1/1) 
Mar 20 11:25:11 2017 (291) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 303, sig: None, sts: 15, class: VirginRunner, slice: 1/1) 
Mar 20 11:25:11 2017 (291) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 297, sig: None, sts: 15, class: ArchRunner, slice: 1/1) 
Mar 20 11:25:12 2017 (291) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 302, sig: None, sts: 15, class: OutgoingRunner, slice: 1/1) 
Mar 20 11:25:12 2017 (291) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 300, sig: None, sts: 15, class: IncomingRunner, slice: 1/1) 

This is, I believe the first date, on which I had trouble. I noticed something was up only two days later. Only today did I notice the extent to which something was wrong.

smtp:

Silence between March 20, 9:48 AM until today 12:31, when I fixed the missing mailman list and restarted mailman.

smtp-failure: no errors
subscribe: no errors
vette: no errors

Any idea, why the instructions at <https://www.askdavetaylor.com/why_is_mailman_complaining_site_list_is_missing_mailman/> have me add aliases to /etc/aliases? I don?t recall having to do that, when I first set up mailman.

> On Mar 24, 2017, at 3:11 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> 
> On 03/24/2017 09:10 AM, Dominik Hoffmann wrote:
>> My error log shows entries like this
>> 
>> Mar 22 16:52:28 2017 mailmanctl(175): Site list is missing: mailman 
>> Mar 22 16:52:28 2017 (175) Site list is missing: mailman
> ...
> 
>> The question I have for you guys are
>> 
>> 1. How might this have happened?
> 
> 
> The list got deleted. I have no clue as to how. Exactly when did these
> messages start appearing in the error log? What other messages are
> logged in various logs at times between the previous Mailman (re)start
> and then?
> 
> 
>> 2. What is the purpose of the mailman list.
> 
> 
> It is a long standing requirement of Mailman 2.1. Its address is exposed
> as a help/info address on the web admin and listinfo overview pages. Its
> -request address is the From: address in password reminders and it's
> -bounces address is the bounce address of last resort.
> 
> It goes away (along with password reminders) in MM 3.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/dhoffmann%40uwalumni.com


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 24 15:40:14 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 12:40:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Why is a Mail stuck in qfiles/bad
In-Reply-To: <72d059dc2bf34f78a7704e3348573747@Hagrid2012.lan.bw-networx.net>
References: <72d059dc2bf34f78a7704e3348573747@Hagrid2012.lan.bw-networx.net>
Message-ID: <9d7cad19-1cf2-5d92-82c7-6460f474d41c@msapiro.net>

On 03/24/2017 03:53 AM, Markus Bobe wrote:
> 
> The error log says:
> 
> Mar 24 11:11:18 2017 (18258) .bak file max count, preserving file: 1490350277.837968+0696655d510e3bad34fee55513eec06ed9b3413c


In order to not lose messages in the event of a hard server crash, power
outage, etc., when a Mailman runner dequeues a message for processing,
the .pck queue entry is renamed to .bak. Then if Mailman (or the runner)
dies for some reason, the .bak is left behind and when the runner
restarts, it looks for and processes the .bak file.

There is a safety valve built in that keeps track of the number of times
the .bak file is processed and quits after a limit to prevent endlessly
reprocessing a message which kills the runner. This is hard coded in
Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py as

MAX_BAK_COUNT = 3

If a .bak has been processed that many times, it is just saved as a .psv
in qfiles/bad

> and when I do a dumpdb -p:
> 
> [----- start pickle file -----]
> <----- start object 1 ----->
> 
> [MAIL CONTENT]
> 
> <----- start object 2 ----->
> {   '_bak_count': 3,
>     '_parsemsg': True,
>     'listname': 'newsletter1',
>     'received_time': 1490350277.837968,
>     'tolist': 1,
>     'version': 3}
> [----- end pickle file -----]
> 
> Can someone tell me the meaning of  ".bak file max count"? I had no success reading the FAQ or searching the mailinglist archive.


So, what keeps getting stuck? If it is a new message each time, look in
Mailman's error and qrunner logs for info as to why.

If as I suspect, this is the same file and you are just moving it from
qfiles/bad/xxx.psv to some qfiles/*/xxx.pck, that won't work becayse the
metadata already has '_bak_count': 3, so it will just be preserved again
without being processed.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 24 16:00:44 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:00:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 
 =?utf-8?q?What=E2=80=99s_up=3A_Sitelist_is_missi?=
 =?utf-8?q?ng=3A_mailman?=
In-Reply-To: <E17FCECC-57F1-4D36-AFB6-F60FA0C46A28@uwalumni.com>
References: <79053005-5E7D-4ABD-A87F-6E5312A85F60@uwalumni.com>
 <7c1902c5-c27b-ffaf-67fa-18b018ac0d80@msapiro.net>
 <E17FCECC-57F1-4D36-AFB6-F60FA0C46A28@uwalumni.com>
Message-ID: <da6d3e3e-b172-cf55-8fef-17d2c8db771a@msapiro.net>

On 03/24/2017 12:32 PM, Dominik Hoffmann wrote:
> Thanks, Mark!
> 
> As for more details on the error, I found the following
> 
> bounce: no errors
> posts: no errors
> qrunner:
> 
> Mar 20 11:25:11 2017 (291) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
> (pid: 299, sig: None, sts: 15, class: CommandRunner, slice: 1/1) 
...

sts 15 is

015 ENOTBLK         Block device required

which means nothing to me without more info. Is there anything from that
time in Mailman's error log or the server's syslog? Was there some file
system issue around that time?


> 
> This is, I believe the first date, on which I had trouble. I noticed something was up only two days later. Only today did I notice the extent to which something was wrong.
> 
> smtp:
> 
> Silence between March 20, 9:48 AM until today 12:31, when I fixed the missing mailman list and restarted mailman.
> 
> smtp-failure: no errors
> subscribe: no errors
> vette: no errors
> 
> Any idea, why the instructions at <https://www.askdavetaylor.com/why_is_mailman_complaining_site_list_is_missing_mailman/> have me add aliases to /etc/aliases? I don?t recall having to do that, when I first set up mailman.


You need aliases for the mailman list as for any other. Whether you need
to do anything manually depends on your MTA and how it's configured.

See <https://wiki.list.org/x/12812344>. Also note that the post you're
looking at is 11 years old and is talking about upgrading from 2.1b
(over 14 years old) to 2.1.2 (14 years old).

<http://www.list.org/mailman-install/site-list.html> would probably have
been a better place to look.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dhoffmann at uwalumni.com  Fri Mar 24 16:09:30 2017
From: dhoffmann at uwalumni.com (Dominik Hoffmann)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 16:09:30 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 
 =?utf-8?q?What=E2=80=99s_up=3A_Sitelist_is_missi?=
 =?utf-8?q?ng=3A_mailman?=
In-Reply-To: <da6d3e3e-b172-cf55-8fef-17d2c8db771a@msapiro.net>
References: <79053005-5E7D-4ABD-A87F-6E5312A85F60@uwalumni.com>
 <7c1902c5-c27b-ffaf-67fa-18b018ac0d80@msapiro.net>
 <E17FCECC-57F1-4D36-AFB6-F60FA0C46A28@uwalumni.com>
 <da6d3e3e-b172-cf55-8fef-17d2c8db771a@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CF31109E-F129-45C1-943F-5F56964A00F1@uwalumni.com>

system.log indicates that I rebooted my server at that time. That?s all I can see, however.

> On Mar 24, 2017, at 4:00 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> 
> On 03/24/2017 12:32 PM, Dominik Hoffmann wrote:
>> Thanks, Mark!
>> 
>> As for more details on the error, I found the following
>> 
>> bounce: no errors
>> posts: no errors
>> qrunner:
>> 
>> Mar 20 11:25:11 2017 (291) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
>> (pid: 299, sig: None, sts: 15, class: CommandRunner, slice: 1/1) 
> ...
> 
> sts 15 is
> 
> 015 ENOTBLK         Block device required
> 
> which means nothing to me without more info. Is there anything from that
> time in Mailman's error log or the server's syslog? Was there some file
> system issue around that time?
> 
> 
>> 
>> This is, I believe the first date, on which I had trouble. I noticed something was up only two days later. Only today did I notice the extent to which something was wrong.
>> 
>> smtp:
>> 
>> Silence between March 20, 9:48 AM until today 12:31, when I fixed the missing mailman list and restarted mailman.
>> 
>> smtp-failure: no errors
>> subscribe: no errors
>> vette: no errors
>> 
>> Any idea, why the instructions at <https://www.askdavetaylor.com/why_is_mailman_complaining_site_list_is_missing_mailman/> have me add aliases to /etc/aliases? I don?t recall having to do that, when I first set up mailman.
> 
> 
> You need aliases for the mailman list as for any other. Whether you need
> to do anything manually depends on your MTA and how it's configured.
> 
> See <https://wiki.list.org/x/12812344>. Also note that the post you're
> looking at is 11 years old and is talking about upgrading from 2.1b
> (over 14 years old) to 2.1.2 (14 years old).
> 
> <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/site-list.html> would probably have
> been a better place to look.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/dhoffmann%40uwalumni.com


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 24 16:38:01 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:38:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 
 =?utf-8?q?What=E2=80=99s_up=3A_Sitelist_is_missi?=
 =?utf-8?q?ng=3A_mailman?=
In-Reply-To: <CF31109E-F129-45C1-943F-5F56964A00F1@uwalumni.com>
References: <79053005-5E7D-4ABD-A87F-6E5312A85F60@uwalumni.com>
 <7c1902c5-c27b-ffaf-67fa-18b018ac0d80@msapiro.net>
 <E17FCECC-57F1-4D36-AFB6-F60FA0C46A28@uwalumni.com>
 <da6d3e3e-b172-cf55-8fef-17d2c8db771a@msapiro.net>
 <CF31109E-F129-45C1-943F-5F56964A00F1@uwalumni.com>
Message-ID: <2927ff1f-9b06-3326-f38c-ca89775f872b@msapiro.net>

On 03/24/2017 01:09 PM, Dominik Hoffmann wrote:
> system.log indicates that I rebooted my server at that time. That?s all I can see, however.


So the qrunner terminations in the qrunner log were probably from the
reboot, and probably Mailman didn't restart after the reboot because the
sitelist was missing at that point, so whatever caused it to be missing
happened before that, possibly long before if Mailman hadn't been
restarted in a long time.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From zalezny.niezalezny at gmail.com  Sun Mar 26 09:53:45 2017
From: zalezny.niezalezny at gmail.com (Zalezny Niezalezny)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2017 09:53:45 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unsubscribe(ban) users via e-mail
Message-ID: <CAKPGuG_MZVvtpM-z729P1Dem5iWFyK5n0K8T9mfR9=oxvsN=HQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

does admin is able to unsubscribe some annoing users without using Mailman
Webpanel ?

For example, by sending some command on the mailing list address ?

Thanks in advance for any hints.


Cheers

Zalezny

From zalezny.niezalezny at gmail.com  Sun Mar 26 10:09:16 2017
From: zalezny.niezalezny at gmail.com (Zalezny Niezalezny)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2017 10:09:16 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] convert attachment to download link
Message-ID: <CAKPGuG8SGL4C1CQjecT_sEpHRe2WyXsu1x=Hg_hWJp_MdTUUhQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

is it possible to convert Mailman attachments to clickable URLs, where user
will be able to download attachment using http for example ?

Is there any feature for it ?


With kind regards

Zalezny

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Mar 26 12:29:59 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2017 09:29:59 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unsubscribe(ban) users via e-mail
In-Reply-To: <CAKPGuG_MZVvtpM-z729P1Dem5iWFyK5n0K8T9mfR9=oxvsN=HQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKPGuG_MZVvtpM-z729P1Dem5iWFyK5n0K8T9mfR9=oxvsN=HQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <94e6fa91-8f9e-0328-d5ed-9b99bd346972@msapiro.net>

On 03/26/2017 06:53 AM, Zalezny Niezalezny wrote:
> 
> does admin is able to unsubscribe some annoing users without using Mailman
> Webpanel ?
> 
> For example, by sending some command on the mailing list address ?


It can be done by email command, but you need to know the users list
password to avoid requiring confirmation. I.e. send

unsubscribe users_password address=user at example.com

to the list's -request address.

There are also command line tools (see
<https://wiki.list.org/x/4030671>) such as bin/remove_members, but they
require command line access to the Mailman server and appropriate access.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Mar 26 12:34:39 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2017 09:34:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] convert attachment to download link
In-Reply-To: <CAKPGuG8SGL4C1CQjecT_sEpHRe2WyXsu1x=Hg_hWJp_MdTUUhQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKPGuG8SGL4C1CQjecT_sEpHRe2WyXsu1x=Hg_hWJp_MdTUUhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d1cc33f9-55a9-ec9c-5f2d-e94ef81b7b0d@msapiro.net>

On 03/26/2017 07:09 AM, Zalezny Niezalezny wrote:
> 
> is it possible to convert Mailman attachments to clickable URLs, where user
> will be able to download attachment using http for example ?
> 
> Is there any feature for it ?


If you set the list's Non-digest options -> scrub_nondigest to Yes,
attachments that pass content filtering will be stored aside and
replaced by links. The links a plain text, not HTML so whether or not
they are "clickable" depends on the MUA reading the mail.

I suggest experimenting on a test list to see if this is what you want.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mb at bw-networx.net  Mon Mar 27 05:25:11 2017
From: mb at bw-networx.net (Markus Bobe)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 09:25:11 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Why is a Mail stuck in qfiles/bad
In-Reply-To: <9d7cad19-1cf2-5d92-82c7-6460f474d41c@msapiro.net>
References: <72d059dc2bf34f78a7704e3348573747@Hagrid2012.lan.bw-networx.net>
 <9d7cad19-1cf2-5d92-82c7-6460f474d41c@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <4c66c43f38944c4385cc105cc851d2c3@Hagrid2012.lan.bw-networx.net>

Hi!

All messages have been stuck. With the knowledge that the .bak are generated due to a server crash I found that python had a segfault every time. I blame an update because after I rebooted the server the problem disappeared.

Thanks for your help!

Best regards,
Markus


-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+mb=bw-networx.net at python.org] Im Auftrag von Mark Sapiro
Gesendet: Freitag, 24. M?rz 2017 20:40
An: mailman-users at python.org
Betreff: Re: [Mailman-Users] Why is a Mail stuck in qfiles/bad

On 03/24/2017 03:53 AM, Markus Bobe wrote:
> 
> The error log says:
> 
> Mar 24 11:11:18 2017 (18258) .bak file max count, preserving file: 
> 1490350277.837968+0696655d510e3bad34fee55513eec06ed9b3413c


In order to not lose messages in the event of a hard server crash, power outage, etc., when a Mailman runner dequeues a message for processing, the .pck queue entry is renamed to .bak. Then if Mailman (or the runner) dies for some reason, the .bak is left behind and when the runner restarts, it looks for and processes the .bak file.

There is a safety valve built in that keeps track of the number of times the .bak file is processed and quits after a limit to prevent endlessly reprocessing a message which kills the runner. This is hard coded in Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py as

MAX_BAK_COUNT = 3

If a .bak has been processed that many times, it is just saved as a .psv in qfiles/bad

> and when I do a dumpdb -p:
> 
> [----- start pickle file -----]
> <----- start object 1 ----->
> 
> [MAIL CONTENT]
> 
> <----- start object 2 ----->
> {   '_bak_count': 3,
>     '_parsemsg': True,
>     'listname': 'newsletter1',
>     'received_time': 1490350277.837968,
>     'tolist': 1,
>     'version': 3}
> [----- end pickle file -----]
> 
> Can someone tell me the meaning of  ".bak file max count"? I had no success reading the FAQ or searching the mailinglist archive.


So, what keeps getting stuck? If it is a new message each time, look in Mailman's error and qrunner logs for info as to why.

If as I suspect, this is the same file and you are just moving it from qfiles/bad/xxx.psv to some qfiles/*/xxx.pck, that won't work becayse the metadata already has '_bak_count': 3, so it will just be preserved again without being processed.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/mb%40bw-networx.net

From nwyman at viablecomputing.com  Tue Mar 28 23:28:49 2017
From: nwyman at viablecomputing.com (Nick Wyman)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:28:49 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interface stopped working after ubuntu update
Message-ID: <032701d2a83c$953d6aa0$bfb83fe0$@viablecomputing.com>

Hello,

I have an Ubuntu 14.04 server running apache2.4 and mailman.  This server has been running a few lists with no problems for over a year.  After updating some Ubuntu packages for security maintenance (unfortunately I don't know all that changed, but apache2 and mailman were unaltered), the web interface, e.g. mailman/listinfo now displays:

Mailman CGI error!!!

The Mailman CGI wrapper encountered a fatal error. This entry is being stored in your syslog:
Operation not permitted

The apache2 config files are unchanged:

I have checked that the vhost for this domain is running with uid and gid www-data.
Verified that I can run mailman/listinfo from the shell as www-data and receive a proper HTML response.

I enabled apache2 LogLevel trace3 and see that the request is getting through to mailman/listinfo, but no other info is logged.

No meaningful info is logged to syslog or mailman/logs.

It seems that something is failing inside the listinfo executable causing it to return error to the driver leading to the above response.  Is it possible to get more logging info from this process?   Perhaps a Python update has caused a script malfunction?

Thanks in advance for your help. 



From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar 29 11:51:23 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:51:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interface stopped working after ubuntu
 update
In-Reply-To: <032701d2a83c$953d6aa0$bfb83fe0$@viablecomputing.com>
References: <032701d2a83c$953d6aa0$bfb83fe0$@viablecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <7297a6b0-39e0-b731-18be-6e703c86efce@msapiro.net>

On 03/28/2017 08:28 PM, Nick Wyman wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I have an Ubuntu 14.04 server running apache2.4 and mailman.  This server has been running a few lists with no problems for over a year.  After updating some Ubuntu packages for security maintenance (unfortunately I don't know all that changed, but apache2 and mailman were unaltered), the web interface, e.g. mailman/listinfo now displays:
> 
> Mailman CGI error!!!
> 
> The Mailman CGI wrapper encountered a fatal error. This entry is being stored in your syslog:
> Operation not permitted
> 
> The apache2 config files are unchanged:
> 
> I have checked that the vhost for this domain is running with uid and gid www-data.
> Verified that I can run mailman/listinfo from the shell as www-data and receive a proper HTML response.
> 
> I enabled apache2 LogLevel trace3 and see that the request is getting through to mailman/listinfo, but no other info is logged.
> 
> No meaningful info is logged to syslog or mailman/logs.
> 
> It seems that something is failing inside the listinfo executable causing it to return error to the driver leading to the above response.  Is it possible to get more logging info from this process?   Perhaps a Python update has caused a script malfunction?


The error is "Operation not permitted". My best guess is this is
occurring at this point in the wrapper

#ifdef HAVE_SETREGID
        status = setregid(getegid(), -1);
        if (status)
                fatal(logident, SETREGID_FAILURE, "%s", strerror(errno));
#endif /* HAVE_SETREGID */

Do other CGIs (e.g. admin, admindb, private, options) fail the same way.

There should at least be something logged in /var/log/apache2/error.log
or wherever the error log is for the vhost. There is a 'syslog' call in
the wrapper, but it only writes the "Operation not permitted" message
that was displayed in the browser.

If you can find the exit status of the wrapper in the apache log, those
codes are defined as

/* Exit codes, so it's easier to distinguish what caused fatal errors when
 * looking at syslogs.
 */
#define GROUP_MISMATCH 2
#define SETREGID_FAILURE 3
#define EXECVE_FAILURE 4
#define MAIL_USAGE_ERROR 5
#define MAIL_ILLEGAL_COMMAND 6
#define ADDALIAS_USAGE_ERROR 7
#define GROUP_NAME_NOT_FOUND 8

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From nwyman at viablecomputing.com  Wed Mar 29 15:31:57 2017
From: nwyman at viablecomputing.com (Nick Wyman)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:31:57 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interface stopped working after ubuntu
 update
In-Reply-To: <7297a6b0-39e0-b731-18be-6e703c86efce@msapiro.net>
References: <032701d2a83c$953d6aa0$bfb83fe0$@viablecomputing.com>
 <7297a6b0-39e0-b731-18be-6e703c86efce@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <02c301d2a8c3$21a33980$64e9ac80$@viablecomputing.com>

Mark,

Thank you for looking.

> The error is "Operation not permitted". My best guess is this is
> occurring at this point in the wrapper
> 
> #ifdef HAVE_SETREGID
>         status = setregid(getegid(), -1);
>         if (status)
>                 fatal(logident, SETREGID_FAILURE, "%s", strerror(errno));
> #endif /* HAVE_SETREGID */

Indeed this is the case.  I recompiled the wrapper with this code block disabled and the web interface functioned again.

Note that the mailman user and group are "list" while apache runs as user and group "www-data".

> 
> Do other CGIs (e.g. admin, admindb, private, options) fail the same way.

Yes, all the cgi-bin executables return the same error message.

> 
> There should at least be something logged in /var/log/apache2/error.log
> or wherever the error log is for the vhost. There is a 'syslog' call in
> the wrapper, but it only writes the "Operation not permitted" message
> that was displayed in the browser.
> 
> If you can find the exit status of the wrapper in the apache log, those
> codes are defined as
> 
> /* Exit codes, so it's easier to distinguish what caused fatal errors when
>  * looking at syslogs.
>  */
> #define GROUP_MISMATCH 2
> #define SETREGID_FAILURE 3
> #define EXECVE_FAILURE 4
> #define MAIL_USAGE_ERROR 5
> #define MAIL_ILLEGAL_COMMAND 6
> #define ADDALIAS_USAGE_ERROR 7
> #define GROUP_NAME_NOT_FOUND 8

I could not find this information in any log file.  However, via print instrumentation, I have reduced the problem to the setregid call.

I'm unable to explain why this command is suddenly failing. 



From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar 29 16:44:26 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:44:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interface stopped working after ubuntu
 update
In-Reply-To: <02c301d2a8c3$21a33980$64e9ac80$@viablecomputing.com>
References: <032701d2a83c$953d6aa0$bfb83fe0$@viablecomputing.com>
 <7297a6b0-39e0-b731-18be-6e703c86efce@msapiro.net>
 <02c301d2a8c3$21a33980$64e9ac80$@viablecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <46077ce4-3b49-7f89-bbc1-4c38a8eb542f@msapiro.net>

On 03/29/2017 12:31 PM, Nick Wyman wrote:
> 
> Indeed this is the case.  I recompiled the wrapper with this code block disabled and the web interface functioned again.
> 
> Note that the mailman user and group are "list" while apache runs as user and group "www-data".


That is expected. The wrappers themselves are group "list" and SETGID.
They are compiled binaries rather than scripts so SETGID is honored.
Apache invokes the wrapper as group "www-data" so when it is invoked its
effective group is "list" and its real group is www-data which is
checked against the compiled in expected group.

All that is OK, but then the wrapper attempts to set the real GID to
that of "list". The reason for this is

        /* We need to set the real gid to the effective gid because
there are
         * some Linux systems which do not preserve the effective gid across
         * popen() calls.  This breaks mail delivery unless the
~mailman/data
         * directory is chown'd to the uid that runs mail programs, and that
         * isn't a viable alternative.
         */

Based on that comment, it's really only important for the mail wrapper,
but in any case, this is what is failing in your case with "Operation
not permitted". Why this would start occurring following an OS update, I
don't know. Possibly it is some apparmor config or something similar.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cpz at tuunq.com  Wed Mar 29 17:23:01 2017
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:23:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interface stopped working after ubuntu
 update
In-Reply-To: <46077ce4-3b49-7f89-bbc1-4c38a8eb542f@msapiro.net>
References: <032701d2a83c$953d6aa0$bfb83fe0$@viablecomputing.com>
 <7297a6b0-39e0-b731-18be-6e703c86efce@msapiro.net>
 <02c301d2a8c3$21a33980$64e9ac80$@viablecomputing.com>
 <46077ce4-3b49-7f89-bbc1-4c38a8eb542f@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <39b93004-f2c8-e8bf-0658-0b6629f11d97@tuunq.com>

On 3/29/2017 1:44 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Why this would start occurring following an OS update, I
> don't know. Possibly it is some apparmor config or something similar.

Or SELinux became enabled?

z!


From nwyman at viablecomputing.com  Wed Mar 29 18:08:02 2017
From: nwyman at viablecomputing.com (Nick Wyman)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 17:08:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interface stopped working after ubuntu
 update
In-Reply-To: <39b93004-f2c8-e8bf-0658-0b6629f11d97@tuunq.com>
References: <032701d2a83c$953d6aa0$bfb83fe0$@viablecomputing.com>
 <7297a6b0-39e0-b731-18be-6e703c86efce@msapiro.net>
 <02c301d2a8c3$21a33980$64e9ac80$@viablecomputing.com>
 <46077ce4-3b49-7f89-bbc1-4c38a8eb542f@msapiro.net>
 <39b93004-f2c8-e8bf-0658-0b6629f11d97@tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <044701d2a8d8$efd917b0$cf8b4710$@viablecomputing.com>

> > Why this would start occurring following an OS update, I
> > don't know. Possibly it is some apparmor config or something similar.
> 
> Or SELinux became enabled?
> 

I've been able to eliminate apparmor (disabled) and selinux (not installed).  

The setregid call simply returns -1.  What is odd is that it is the wrapper is attempting to set the GID to the current value.  Here is some debugging output:

check_caller: start
check_caller: end
run_script: start
effective GID 38
real GID 38
setregid returned -1
errno: 1 Operation not permitted



From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar 29 18:33:10 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:33:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interface stopped working after ubuntu
 update
In-Reply-To: <044701d2a8d8$efd917b0$cf8b4710$@viablecomputing.com>
References: <032701d2a83c$953d6aa0$bfb83fe0$@viablecomputing.com>
 <7297a6b0-39e0-b731-18be-6e703c86efce@msapiro.net>
 <02c301d2a8c3$21a33980$64e9ac80$@viablecomputing.com>
 <46077ce4-3b49-7f89-bbc1-4c38a8eb542f@msapiro.net>
 <39b93004-f2c8-e8bf-0658-0b6629f11d97@tuunq.com>
 <044701d2a8d8$efd917b0$cf8b4710$@viablecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <b523ee37-a448-635c-f5df-c0ab016db067@msapiro.net>

On 03/29/2017 03:08 PM, Nick Wyman wrote:
> 
> The setregid call simply returns -1.  What is odd is that it is the wrapper is attempting to set the GID to the current value.  Here is some debugging output:
> 
> check_caller: start
> check_caller: end
> run_script: start
> effective GID 38
> real GID 38
> setregid returned -1
> errno: 1 Operation not permitted


What group is GID 38?

I would expect the wrapper to see the effective GID is that of "list"
and the real GID is that of "www-data" and then to be trying to set the
real GID to be the effective GID.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From nwyman at viablecomputing.com  Wed Mar 29 21:09:43 2017
From: nwyman at viablecomputing.com (Nick Wyman)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 20:09:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interface stopped working after ubuntu
 update
In-Reply-To: <b523ee37-a448-635c-f5df-c0ab016db067@msapiro.net>
References: <032701d2a83c$953d6aa0$bfb83fe0$@viablecomputing.com>
 <7297a6b0-39e0-b731-18be-6e703c86efce@msapiro.net>
 <02c301d2a8c3$21a33980$64e9ac80$@viablecomputing.com>
 <46077ce4-3b49-7f89-bbc1-4c38a8eb542f@msapiro.net>
 <39b93004-f2c8-e8bf-0658-0b6629f11d97@tuunq.com>
 <044701d2a8d8$efd917b0$cf8b4710$@viablecomputing.com>
 <b523ee37-a448-635c-f5df-c0ab016db067@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <056101d2a8f2$50f262e0$f2d728a0$@viablecomputing.com>

> 
> What group is GID 38?
> 
> I would expect the wrapper to see the effective GID is that of "list"
> and the real GID is that of "www-data" and then to be trying to set the
> real GID to be the effective GID.
> 

Yes, sorry, that was captured when I tried setting the apache gid to 38 (list group).   Below is the output from standard apache config (running for months) with apache gid 33 (www-data).

check_caller: start
check_caller: end
run_script: start
effective GID 38
real GID 33
setregid returned -1
errno: 1 Operation not permitted

listinfo is owned by group 'list' and chmod g+s 


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar 29 21:25:14 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:25:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interface stopped working after ubuntu
 update
In-Reply-To: <056101d2a8f2$50f262e0$f2d728a0$@viablecomputing.com>
References: <032701d2a83c$953d6aa0$bfb83fe0$@viablecomputing.com>
 <7297a6b0-39e0-b731-18be-6e703c86efce@msapiro.net>
 <02c301d2a8c3$21a33980$64e9ac80$@viablecomputing.com>
 <46077ce4-3b49-7f89-bbc1-4c38a8eb542f@msapiro.net>
 <39b93004-f2c8-e8bf-0658-0b6629f11d97@tuunq.com>
 <044701d2a8d8$efd917b0$cf8b4710$@viablecomputing.com>
 <b523ee37-a448-635c-f5df-c0ab016db067@msapiro.net>
 <056101d2a8f2$50f262e0$f2d728a0$@viablecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <1642caa6-033f-4bfb-921e-0bc3f9f661c2@msapiro.net>

On 03/29/2017 06:09 PM, Nick Wyman wrote:
> 
> Yes, sorry, that was captured when I tried setting the apache gid to 38 (list group).   Below is the output from standard apache config (running for months) with apache gid 33 (www-data).
> 
> check_caller: start
> check_caller: end
> run_script: start
> effective GID 38
> real GID 33
> setregid returned -1
> errno: 1 Operation not permitted
> 
> listinfo is owned by group 'list' and chmod g+s 


That is all exactly what I would expect except for the recent appearance
of "Operation not permitted", and I don't know what might be causing that.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cpz at tuunq.com  Wed Mar 29 21:42:35 2017
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:42:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interface stopped working after ubuntu
 update
In-Reply-To: <044701d2a8d8$efd917b0$cf8b4710$@viablecomputing.com>
References: <032701d2a83c$953d6aa0$bfb83fe0$@viablecomputing.com>
 <7297a6b0-39e0-b731-18be-6e703c86efce@msapiro.net>
 <02c301d2a8c3$21a33980$64e9ac80$@viablecomputing.com>
 <46077ce4-3b49-7f89-bbc1-4c38a8eb542f@msapiro.net>
 <39b93004-f2c8-e8bf-0658-0b6629f11d97@tuunq.com>
 <044701d2a8d8$efd917b0$cf8b4710$@viablecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <b92a56e9-abfe-9bc0-eb84-c477600c5905@tuunq.com>

On 3/29/2017 3:08 PM, Nick Wyman wrote:
> The setregid call simply returns -1.  What is odd is that it is the
> wrapper is attempting to set the GID to the current value.

I don't have the linux kernel source handy, but in the freebsd code if the 
calling process doesn't have the right credentials, looks like it'll bounce 
regardless of what you're trying to change. That is.... (slightly 
reformatted, and I may be wrong, too)

egid = uap->egid;
rgid = uap->rgid;
...
   if (
	(
	 (rgid != (gid_t)-1 &&
	  rgid != oldcred->cr_rgid &&
           rgid != oldcred->cr_svgid)
          ||
          (egid != (gid_t)-1 &&
	  egid != oldcred->cr_groups[0] &&
           egid != oldcred->cr_rgid &&
	  egid != oldcred->cr_svgid)
	)
	&&
         (error = priv_check_cred(oldcred, PRIV_CRED_SETREGID, 0)) != 0
     )
         goto fail;
(/usr/src/sys/kern/kern_prot.c on a 10.3 system)

Sort of sounds to me that either the calling process isn't actually the IDs 
it should be or that the kernel semantics changed.

Instead of using the wrapper itself, have you written a simple test program 
to play around with combinations of UID/GID? Might be faster just to try 
some variations and see what happens (and maybe try the same on a slightly 
older system).

Later,

z!
who really isn't a BSD kernel hacker

From her at adm.ku.dk  Thu Mar 30 07:29:01 2017
From: her at adm.ku.dk (Henrik Rasmussen)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:29:01 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 The Definitive Mailman Suite - Download
 error
Message-ID: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D019B9836B2@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>

Is this list the correct place for Mailman 3 questions?

I was in the progress of installing the Mailman3-bundler as it got obsolete. As a consequence the old Mailman-bundler documentation was changed to refer to http://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/devsetup.html "The Definitive Mailman Suite Development Setup Guide". I am now starting over.

Both in the Mailman Suite Setup Guide section "Set up and run Mailman Core" http://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/devsetup.html#set-up-and-run-mailman-core , and the Mailman Core doc at http://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/release-3.0/src/mailman/docs/WebUIin5.html#gnu-mailman-3 the code is supposed to be downloaded using the command "git clone git at gitlab.com:mailman/mailman.git", but I get a Permission Denied

  (venv-3.5) [mailman at lstapp01pl ~]$ git clone git at gitlab.com:mailman/mailman.git
  Cloning into 'mailman'...
  The authenticity of host 'gitlab.com (<no hostip for proxy command>)' can't be established.
  RSA key fingerprint is b6:03:0e:39:97:9e:d0:e7:24:ce:a3:77:3e:01:42:09.
  No matching host key fingerprint found in DNS.
  Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? yes
  Warning: Permanently added 'gitlab.com' (RSA) to the list of known hosts.
  Permission denied (publickey).
  fatal: Could not read from remote repository.
  
  Please make sure you have the correct access rights
  and the repository exists.

How should I download the Mailman core?

Henrik Rasmussen

From guest2 at sgeinc.com  Thu Mar 30 10:43:15 2017
From: guest2 at sgeinc.com (Richard Shetron)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:43:15 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interface stopped working after ubuntu
 update
In-Reply-To: <02c301d2a8c3$21a33980$64e9ac80$@viablecomputing.com>
References: <032701d2a83c$953d6aa0$bfb83fe0$@viablecomputing.com>
 <7297a6b0-39e0-b731-18be-6e703c86efce@msapiro.net>
 <02c301d2a8c3$21a33980$64e9ac80$@viablecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <4d80fd0d-d6c4-446f-fe5c-1ec4d263aeb6@sgeinc.com>

I had this problem during a ubuntu update.  IIRC:  I discovered that the 
update changed the user/group id's of mailman from mailman:www-data to 
list:list (or something like that) as it did a mailman update that 
messed up the id's.  It has been too long to remember the exact details. 
  The default ubuntu mailman install uses different permissions from a 
regular mailman install from the mailman tarball.  I may have removed 
and then reinstalled mailman from the tarball/source.  The ubuntu 
mailman package was pretty old, IIRC.

I remember systemd and apparmor breaking a running system and spending 
weeks fixing everything that was broken.  It broke enough stuff and 
caused enough problems that ubuntu has convinced me to find another *nix 
distribution or even switch to bsd to get away from the disaster that is 
systemd.

On 3/29/2017 3:31 PM, Nick Wyman wrote:
> Mark,
> 
> Thank you for looking.
> 
>> The error is "Operation not permitted". My best guess is this is
>> occurring at this point in the wrapper
>>
>> #ifdef HAVE_SETREGID
>>          status = setregid(getegid(), -1);
>>          if (status)
>>                  fatal(logident, SETREGID_FAILURE, "%s", strerror(errno));
>> #endif /* HAVE_SETREGID */
> 
> Indeed this is the case.  I recompiled the wrapper with this code block disabled and the web interface functioned again.
> 
> Note that the mailman user and group are "list" while apache runs as user and group "www-data".
> 
>>
>> Do other CGIs (e.g. admin, admindb, private, options) fail the same way.
> 
> Yes, all the cgi-bin executables return the same error message.
> 
>>
>> There should at least be something logged in /var/log/apache2/error.log
>> or wherever the error log is for the vhost. There is a 'syslog' call in
>> the wrapper, but it only writes the "Operation not permitted" message
>> that was displayed in the browser.
>>
>> If you can find the exit status of the wrapper in the apache log, those
>> codes are defined as
>>
>> /* Exit codes, so it's easier to distinguish what caused fatal errors when
>>   * looking at syslogs.
>>   */
>> #define GROUP_MISMATCH 2
>> #define SETREGID_FAILURE 3
>> #define EXECVE_FAILURE 4
>> #define MAIL_USAGE_ERROR 5
>> #define MAIL_ILLEGAL_COMMAND 6
>> #define ADDALIAS_USAGE_ERROR 7
>> #define GROUP_NAME_NOT_FOUND 8
> 
> I could not find this information in any log file.  However, via print instrumentation, I have reduced the problem to the setregid call.
> 
> I'm unable to explain why this command is suddenly failing.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/guest2%40sgeinc.com
> 

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 30 11:07:50 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:07:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 The Definitive Mailman Suite -
 Download error
In-Reply-To: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D019B9836B2@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
References: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D019B9836B2@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
Message-ID: <4aad5a11-b1bc-edaf-d1c1-4981818ed11d@msapiro.net>

On 03/30/2017 04:29 AM, Henrik Rasmussen wrote:
> Is this list the correct place for Mailman 3 questions?


No. Better places are mailman-users at mailman3.org
<https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.mailman3.org/>
and mailman-developers at python.org
<https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers>.


> I was in the progress of installing the Mailman3-bundler as it got obsolete. As a consequence the old Mailman-bundler documentation was changed to refer to http://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/devsetup.html "The Definitive Mailman Suite Development Setup Guide". I am now starting over.
> 
> Both in the Mailman Suite Setup Guide section "Set up and run Mailman Core" http://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/devsetup.html#set-up-and-run-mailman-core , and the Mailman Core doc at http://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/release-3.0/src/mailman/docs/WebUIin5.html#gnu-mailman-3 the code is supposed to be downloaded using the command "git clone git at gitlab.com:mailman/mailman.git", but I get a Permission Denied
> 
>   (venv-3.5) [mailman at lstapp01pl ~]$ git clone git at gitlab.com:mailman/mailman.git
>   Cloning into 'mailman'...
>   The authenticity of host 'gitlab.com (<no hostip for proxy command>)' can't be established.
>   RSA key fingerprint is b6:03:0e:39:97:9e:d0:e7:24:ce:a3:77:3e:01:42:09.
>   No matching host key fingerprint found in DNS.
>   Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? yes
>   Warning: Permanently added 'gitlab.com' (RSA) to the list of known hosts.
>   Permission denied (publickey).
>   fatal: Could not read from remote repository.


You need to create an account on GitLab and add your ssh public key in
order to use git at gitlab.com:mailman/mailman.git URLs. Alternatively, you
can use URLs like https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman.git

There are a few places where this is mentioned. E.g.,
<https://wiki.list.org/DEV/SetupDevEnvironment>, but we need to be
better about making this more clear.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jon+mailman at unequivocal.eu  Thu Mar 30 05:02:46 2017
From: jon+mailman at unequivocal.eu (Jon Ribbens)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:02:46 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman brokenly base64-encoding all messages
Message-ID: <20170330090246.hpecn4veaqkxcyoc@unequivocal.eu>

I'm using Mailman 2.1.22 packaged by Ubuntu 16.10.

It appears that on one (but I think not all) of my mailing lists,
Mailman is base64-encoding every single message. Yes, including
ones that 100% definitely contain only ASCII characters. Does anyone
know why Mailman would be doing this?

You might say that base64-encoding all messages shouldn't be
a problem, and you'd be partly right. However there is also another
problem: Mailman is getting the line break encoding wrong in its
base64-encoded messages - by which I mean the encoded representation
of line breaks inside the base64 data. As per RFC 2045 s6.8: "line
breaks must be converted into CRLF sequences prior to base64 encoding"
but Mailman is outputting just LF.

The latter problem definitely appears to be a bug in Mailman,
or perhaps the Python 'email' package. The former seems likely to
be a configuration issue, but it's not obvious to me where.

From jon+mailman at unequivocal.eu  Thu Mar 30 11:10:01 2017
From: jon+mailman at unequivocal.eu (Jon Ribbens)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:10:01 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 The Definitive Mailman Suite -
 Download error
In-Reply-To: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D019B9836B2@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
References: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D019B9836B2@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
Message-ID: <20170330151001.r5xhnrhmebycpmiu@unequivocal.eu>

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 11:29:01AM +0000, Henrik Rasmussen wrote:
> Both in the Mailman Suite Setup Guide section "Set up and run
> Mailman Core"
> http://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/devsetup.html#set-up-and-run-mailman-core
> , and the Mailman Core doc at
> http://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/release-3.0/src/mailman/docs/WebUIin5.html#gnu-mailman-3
> the code is supposed to be downloaded using the command "git clone
> git at gitlab.com:mailman/mailman.git", but I get a Permission Denied

Try this instead:

  git clone https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman.git

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 30 11:35:54 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:35:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman brokenly base64-encoding all messages
In-Reply-To: <20170330090246.hpecn4veaqkxcyoc@unequivocal.eu>
References: <20170330090246.hpecn4veaqkxcyoc@unequivocal.eu>
Message-ID: <9ec5d177-9050-06e1-9a26-71dc948fd576@msapiro.net>

On 03/30/2017 02:02 AM, Jon Ribbens wrote:
> I'm using Mailman 2.1.22 packaged by Ubuntu 16.10.
> 
> It appears that on one (but I think not all) of my mailing lists,
> Mailman is base64-encoding every single message. Yes, including
> ones that 100% definitely contain only ASCII characters. Does anyone
> know why Mailman would be doing this?


Yes. First, Debian has changed their Mailman package on which Ubuntu is
based to make UTF-8 Mailman's character set for all preferred languages.

This combines with the fact that the Python email library base64 encodes
utf-8 message bodies.


> You might say that base64-encoding all messages shouldn't be
> a problem, and you'd be partly right. However there is also another
> problem: Mailman is getting the line break encoding wrong in its
> base64-encoded messages - by which I mean the encoded representation
> of line breaks inside the base64 data. As per RFC 2045 s6.8: "line
> breaks must be converted into CRLF sequences prior to base64 encoding"
> but Mailman is outputting just LF.


I believe that RFC 2045 s6.8 refers back to canonical form as discussed
in sections 6.5 and 6.6 and RFC 2049 sec 4. While it is arguable that
this requires all plain text to use CRLF line delimiters regardless of
encoding, I think common practice is to use CRLF only "on the wire" and
not in base64 or quoted-printable encodings.


> The latter problem definitely appears to be a bug in Mailman,
> or perhaps the Python 'email' package.


If it is a bug, it is in the Python email library, not Mailman.


> The former seems likely to
> be a configuration issue, but it's not obvious to me where.


To change the former, you can put

add_language('en', 'English (USA)', 'us-ascii')

in mm_cfg.py.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From barry at list.org  Thu Mar 30 11:38:07 2017
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:38:07 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 The Definitive Mailman Suite -
 Download error
In-Reply-To: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D019B9836B2@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
References: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D019B9836B2@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
Message-ID: <20170330113807.65e39ad6@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 30, 2017, at 11:29 AM, Henrik Rasmussen wrote:

>Both in the Mailman Suite Setup Guide section "Set up and run Mailman Core"
>the code is supposed to be downloaded using the command "git clone
>git at gitlab.com:mailman/mailman.git", but I get a Permission Denied

I'll fix that to use the https URLs.

Cheers,
-Barry

From luscheina at yahoo.de  Thu Mar 30 11:44:52 2017
From: luscheina at yahoo.de (Christian F Buser)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 17:44:52 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2 and 3
Message-ID: <58DD27F4.3040706@yahoo.de>

Hi all

Every now and then, "Mailman 3" is mentioned on this list. As I
understand it, MM 3 is completely different from the current MM 2 we all
are using, and as Mark Sapiro wrote earlier today, questions regarding
MM3 belong somewhere else. And I think I'll be using MM 2 as long as MM
2 is offered by our provider (via the cPanel installation).

However: What is the state of Mailman 2 at the moment? I think it is
still supported and developed. But will this change in the near or in
the distant future?

No, I am not afraid of learning something new - I am just wondering :)

Thank you, Christian
-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)      
Hilfe f?r Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org

From jon+mailman at unequivocal.eu  Thu Mar 30 11:58:01 2017
From: jon+mailman at unequivocal.eu (Jon Ribbens)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:58:01 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman brokenly base64-encoding all messages
In-Reply-To: <9ec5d177-9050-06e1-9a26-71dc948fd576@msapiro.net>
References: <20170330090246.hpecn4veaqkxcyoc@unequivocal.eu>
 <9ec5d177-9050-06e1-9a26-71dc948fd576@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20170330155801.lcd3owbhag32yee6@unequivocal.eu>

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 08:35:54AM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> I believe that RFC 2045 s6.8 refers back to canonical form as discussed
> in sections 6.5 and 6.6 and RFC 2049 sec 4. While it is arguable that
> this requires all plain text to use CRLF line delimiters regardless of
> encoding, I think common practice is to use CRLF only "on the wire" and
> not in base64 or quoted-printable encodings.

RFC 2045 s6.8 explicitly says that text line breaks "must" be
converted to CRLF before base64 encoding, and that this is regardless
of whether it's canonical form or not.

> If it is a bug, it is in the Python email library, not Mailman.

OK I'll look into reporting it on the Python bug tracker.

> To change the former, you can put
> 
> add_language('en', 'English (USA)', 'us-ascii')
> 
> in mm_cfg.py.

I've done this (in /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py) and then done
systemctl restart mailman and it's made no difference.
Is there anything else I need to do also?

(I'm testing it by getting it to reply to a 'help' request.)

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 30 12:16:41 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:16:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2 and 3
In-Reply-To: <58DD27F4.3040706@yahoo.de>
References: <58DD27F4.3040706@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <3f5dd33e-fa1a-5961-bd99-823c6f600d49@msapiro.net>

On 03/30/2017 08:44 AM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> However: What is the state of Mailman 2 at the moment? I think it is
> still supported and developed. But will this change in the near or in
> the distant future?


Mailman 2 is definitely end of life. I am the only one actively
supporting it at this point and while I continue to offer help and fix
bugs, it's not what I want to be doing.

Mailman 3 is the future. 3.1 will be released probably after PyCon in
May if not before, and while there will still be some things "missing"
from the web admin UI (Postorius), and the migration tools for 2.1 lists
are still buggy, we think 3.1 will be a viable replacement for Mailman
2.1. There are currently production lists running on Mailman 3 at
<https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/>,
<https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/>,
<https://lists.fedoraproject.org/admin/lists/> and elsewhere.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 30 13:22:08 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:22:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman brokenly base64-encoding all messages
In-Reply-To: <20170330155801.lcd3owbhag32yee6@unequivocal.eu>
References: <20170330090246.hpecn4veaqkxcyoc@unequivocal.eu>
 <9ec5d177-9050-06e1-9a26-71dc948fd576@msapiro.net>
 <20170330155801.lcd3owbhag32yee6@unequivocal.eu>
Message-ID: <19df3cb2-4d92-0327-97b4-2497b57cd090@msapiro.net>

On 03/30/2017 08:58 AM, Jon Ribbens wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 08:35:54AM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
>> To change the former, you can put
>>
>> add_language('en', 'English (USA)', 'us-ascii')
>>
>> in mm_cfg.py.
> 
> I've done this (in /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py) and then done
> systemctl restart mailman and it's made no difference.
> Is there anything else I need to do also?


Sorry, I forgot. Debian's package ignores any charset argument you put
in add_language.

You need to put

LC_DESCRIPTIONS['en'] = ('English (USA)', 'us-ascii', 'ltr')

in mm_cfg.py. I think that will work.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Mar 30 12:55:17 2017
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:55:17 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2 and 3
In-Reply-To: <3f5dd33e-fa1a-5961-bd99-823c6f600d49@msapiro.net>
References: <58DD27F4.3040706@yahoo.de>
 <3f5dd33e-fa1a-5961-bd99-823c6f600d49@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <054cb5fb-2a15-3dff-cb62-9666b3bc8d02@neurotica.com>

On 03/30/2017 12:16 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> However: What is the state of Mailman 2 at the moment? I think it is
>> still supported and developed. But will this change in the near or in
>> the distant future?
>
> Mailman 2 is definitely end of life. I am the only one actively
> supporting it at this point and while I continue to offer help and fix
> bugs, it's not what I want to be doing.
>
> Mailman 3 is the future. 3.1 will be released probably after PyCon in
> May if not before, and while there will still be some things "missing"
> from the web admin UI (Postorius), and the migration tools for 2.1 lists
> are still buggy, we think 3.1 will be a viable replacement for Mailman
> 2.1.

   Does 3 yet run on anything other than Linux?  The last time I looked 
at it, it looked to be pretty much Linux-only.  (My company's 
Solaris-based mail servers aren't going away anytime soon.)

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 30 17:27:20 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:27:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2 and 3
In-Reply-To: <054cb5fb-2a15-3dff-cb62-9666b3bc8d02@neurotica.com>
References: <58DD27F4.3040706@yahoo.de>
 <3f5dd33e-fa1a-5961-bd99-823c6f600d49@msapiro.net>
 <054cb5fb-2a15-3dff-cb62-9666b3bc8d02@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <fd6927f6-c347-d801-c308-c749ffdeb963@msapiro.net>

On 03/30/2017 09:55 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> 
>   Does 3 yet run on anything other than Linux?  The last time I looked
> at it, it looked to be pretty much Linux-only.  (My company's
> Solaris-based mail servers aren't going away anytime soon.)


It should run on any *nix that supports Python 2, Python 3 and its
dependencies. I know people have built it successfully on Mac OSX, at
least for development/testing.

Are there specific issues with Solaris that you think will be problems?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Mar 30 18:08:05 2017
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:08:05 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2 and 3
In-Reply-To: <fd6927f6-c347-d801-c308-c749ffdeb963@msapiro.net>
References: <58DD27F4.3040706@yahoo.de>
 <3f5dd33e-fa1a-5961-bd99-823c6f600d49@msapiro.net>
 <054cb5fb-2a15-3dff-cb62-9666b3bc8d02@neurotica.com>
 <fd6927f6-c347-d801-c308-c749ffdeb963@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <c9d4d411-4bd8-f12a-dd04-df715b71c882@neurotica.com>

On 03/30/2017 05:27 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>   Does 3 yet run on anything other than Linux?  The last time I looked
>> at it, it looked to be pretty much Linux-only.  (My company's
>> Solaris-based mail servers aren't going away anytime soon.)
>
> It should run on any *nix that supports Python 2, Python 3 and its
> dependencies. I know people have built it successfully on Mac OSX, at
> least for development/testing.
>
> Are there specific issues with Solaris that you think will be problems?

   Hi!  I last looked at it about a year ago (which is a very long time 
in my world ;)) so the specifics are very fuzzy.  I believe there was a 
dependency on a biggish package that was either Linux-only or x86-only. 
Would it have been Node.js?

   Thinking about it some more, yes I believe it was Node.js. 
Apparently Node.js isn't quite portable enough to run on SPARC.

                -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 30 19:11:38 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:11:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2 and 3
In-Reply-To: <c9d4d411-4bd8-f12a-dd04-df715b71c882@neurotica.com>
References: <58DD27F4.3040706@yahoo.de>
 <3f5dd33e-fa1a-5961-bd99-823c6f600d49@msapiro.net>
 <054cb5fb-2a15-3dff-cb62-9666b3bc8d02@neurotica.com>
 <fd6927f6-c347-d801-c308-c749ffdeb963@msapiro.net>
 <c9d4d411-4bd8-f12a-dd04-df715b71c882@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4f2710b5-76b0-55d7-f920-0fb16cc68958@msapiro.net>

On 03/30/2017 03:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> 
>   Thinking about it some more, yes I believe it was Node.js. Apparently
> Node.js isn't quite portable enough to run on SPARC.


I'm afraid Node.js is still a requirement.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cpz at tuunq.com  Thu Mar 30 19:13:06 2017
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:13:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2 and 3
In-Reply-To: <054cb5fb-2a15-3dff-cb62-9666b3bc8d02@neurotica.com>
References: <58DD27F4.3040706@yahoo.de>
 <3f5dd33e-fa1a-5961-bd99-823c6f600d49@msapiro.net>
 <054cb5fb-2a15-3dff-cb62-9666b3bc8d02@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <27c77c98-61fd-608d-266f-af1f007715b4@tuunq.com>

On 3/30/2017 9:55 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
>   Does 3 yet run on anything other than Linux?  The last time I looked at
> it, it looked to be pretty much Linux-only.  (My company's Solaris-based
> mail servers aren't going away anytime soon.)

Unless v3 is different from v2 in this regard, mailman doesn't have to run 
in the same OS instance as the MTA. Put mailman3 on a linux (or bsd) box and 
let the existing MTAs do their thing. You will have to deal with routing the 
mailman aliases to the mailman system, but that shouldn't be difficult.

OTOH, node.js is available for solaris x86 (32 & 64 bit) on the nodejs.org 
site. If you're still running sparc servers.... aren't they getting a bit 
long in the tooth? (Says the person still running his backup DNS on a 
Pentium P90 :).)

Later,

z!


From jon+mailman at unequivocal.eu  Thu Mar 30 19:32:26 2017
From: jon+mailman at unequivocal.eu (Jon Ribbens)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 00:32:26 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman brokenly base64-encoding all messages
In-Reply-To: <19df3cb2-4d92-0327-97b4-2497b57cd090@msapiro.net>
References: <20170330090246.hpecn4veaqkxcyoc@unequivocal.eu>
 <9ec5d177-9050-06e1-9a26-71dc948fd576@msapiro.net>
 <20170330155801.lcd3owbhag32yee6@unequivocal.eu>
 <19df3cb2-4d92-0327-97b4-2497b57cd090@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20170330233226.242hoqa33ovv22zt@unequivocal.eu>

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 10:22:08AM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Sorry, I forgot. Debian's package ignores any charset argument you put
> in add_language.
> 
> You need to put
> 
> LC_DESCRIPTIONS['en'] = ('English (USA)', 'us-ascii', 'ltr')
> 
> in mm_cfg.py. I think that will work.

Awesome, that does indeed appear to work perfectly. Thank you.
Shouldn't this be a FAQ? I looked there first but couldn't find
anything relevant.

From jaybird at bluegrasspals.com  Thu Mar 30 18:30:42 2017
From: jaybird at bluegrasspals.com (Jayson Smith)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:30:42 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Any way to disable bounce subscription disabling
 for just certain users?
Message-ID: <948d38e1-46f0-c92a-59b4-046b97f1672e@bluegrasspals.com>

Hi,


I have a weird situation I'm sure others have had, and I'm wondering if 
there's any way in Mailman 2 to deal with it. I have three subscribers 
to one of my lists who are on ISP's who do spam filtering at the SMTP 
level, rejecting with a 554 any message they don't like. And as so often 
happens, their definition of spam and our definition of spam can 
sometimes be totally different. I'm assuming here that the particular 
subscribers probably have no way to turn off this spam filtering.


I have my bounce score threshold set to 2.9 so whenever someone bounces 
three days within a week, they get disabled. What ends up happening is 
that I have to go in and re-enable their subscriptions. Normally I could 
just do a reset_bounce on that list, but I also have someone whose 
mailbox is full, and I want to keep them disabled, hoping they'll clean 
it up, get a mail is bouncing message, and come back. I've tried 
contacting these subscribers, asking if they have another Email address 
they could use, but have had no response.


Is there any way to disable the automatic disabling of just specific 
member addresses? If I could find a way to do it, would setting their 
bounce score to something like negative 1,000,000,000 do the trick, or 
would Mailman just consider that the same as 0 and set it to 1 the next day?


Thanks for any thoughts.


Jayson



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Mar 30 19:37:41 2017
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 19:37:41 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2 and 3
In-Reply-To: <27c77c98-61fd-608d-266f-af1f007715b4@tuunq.com>
References: <58DD27F4.3040706@yahoo.de>
 <3f5dd33e-fa1a-5961-bd99-823c6f600d49@msapiro.net>
 <054cb5fb-2a15-3dff-cb62-9666b3bc8d02@neurotica.com>
 <27c77c98-61fd-608d-266f-af1f007715b4@tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <c916d403-0b77-89c2-d522-d6ebf6493af7@neurotica.com>

On 03/30/2017 07:13 PM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
>>   Does 3 yet run on anything other than Linux?  The last time I looked at
>> it, it looked to be pretty much Linux-only.  (My company's Solaris-based
>> mail servers aren't going away anytime soon.)
>
> Unless v3 is different from v2 in this regard, mailman doesn't have to
> run in the same OS instance as the MTA. Put mailman3 on a linux (or bsd)
> box and let the existing MTAs do their thing. You will have to deal with
> routing the mailman aliases to the mailman system, but that shouldn't be
> difficult.

   We could set that up here, but rather than set up another VM running 
a different OS just to support Mailman 3 isn't going to happen.  We'll 
stick with 2.

> OTOH, node.js is available for solaris x86 (32 & 64 bit) on the
> nodejs.org site. If you're still running sparc servers.... aren't they
> getting a bit long in the tooth?

   Just because there were SPARC servers in 1995 doesn't mean ALL SPARC 
servers are from 1995, CZ...these aren't the ones we ran at Digex. ;)

   Our T3s and T4s are reasonably new and screaming fast.  They'll get 
replaced when they're truly obsolete, rather than "salesman obsolete". 
That likely means ARM. (does Node.js run on ARM?)

> (Says the person still running his backup DNS on a Pentium P90 :).)

   Hey, if it serves the requests..

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Mar 30 19:38:26 2017
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 19:38:26 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2 and 3
In-Reply-To: <4f2710b5-76b0-55d7-f920-0fb16cc68958@msapiro.net>
References: <58DD27F4.3040706@yahoo.de>
 <3f5dd33e-fa1a-5961-bd99-823c6f600d49@msapiro.net>
 <054cb5fb-2a15-3dff-cb62-9666b3bc8d02@neurotica.com>
 <fd6927f6-c347-d801-c308-c749ffdeb963@msapiro.net>
 <c9d4d411-4bd8-f12a-dd04-df715b71c882@neurotica.com>
 <4f2710b5-76b0-55d7-f920-0fb16cc68958@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <be788761-a55f-e4fa-c083-2f9e08672030@neurotica.com>

On 03/30/2017 07:11 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>   Thinking about it some more, yes I believe it was Node.js. Apparently
>> Node.js isn't quite portable enough to run on SPARC.
>
> I'm afraid Node.js is still a requirement.

   Ok.  No Mailman 3 for us. :-(  Thanks for your response.

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

From barry at list.org  Thu Mar 30 20:08:07 2017
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:08:07 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2 and 3
In-Reply-To: <4f2710b5-76b0-55d7-f920-0fb16cc68958@msapiro.net>
References: <58DD27F4.3040706@yahoo.de>
 <3f5dd33e-fa1a-5961-bd99-823c6f600d49@msapiro.net>
 <054cb5fb-2a15-3dff-cb62-9666b3bc8d02@neurotica.com>
 <fd6927f6-c347-d801-c308-c749ffdeb963@msapiro.net>
 <c9d4d411-4bd8-f12a-dd04-df715b71c882@neurotica.com>
 <4f2710b5-76b0-55d7-f920-0fb16cc68958@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20170330200807.4ddf0873@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 30, 2017, at 04:11 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>I'm afraid Node.js is still a requirement.

Of the web interface of course.  Technically those are optional components,
but practically speaking if you want to control Mailman 3 via the web, that's
the only option.

-Barry

From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Mar 30 20:11:16 2017
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:11:16 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2 and 3
In-Reply-To: <20170330200807.4ddf0873@subdivisions.wooz.org>
References: <58DD27F4.3040706@yahoo.de>
 <3f5dd33e-fa1a-5961-bd99-823c6f600d49@msapiro.net>
 <054cb5fb-2a15-3dff-cb62-9666b3bc8d02@neurotica.com>
 <fd6927f6-c347-d801-c308-c749ffdeb963@msapiro.net>
 <c9d4d411-4bd8-f12a-dd04-df715b71c882@neurotica.com>
 <4f2710b5-76b0-55d7-f920-0fb16cc68958@msapiro.net>
 <20170330200807.4ddf0873@subdivisions.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <8f7bdda5-913d-b270-537e-b9bacde6536e@neurotica.com>

On 03/30/2017 08:08 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> I'm afraid Node.js is still a requirement.
>
> Of the web interface of course.  Technically those are optional components,
> but practically speaking if you want to control Mailman 3 via the web, that's
> the only option.

   Interesting.  I know there's a pretty clear division between 
components in 3; can the web interface run on a separate machine and 
point to a remote instance of Mailman?

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

From barry at list.org  Thu Mar 30 20:35:48 2017
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:35:48 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2 and 3
In-Reply-To: <8f7bdda5-913d-b270-537e-b9bacde6536e@neurotica.com>
References: <58DD27F4.3040706@yahoo.de>
 <3f5dd33e-fa1a-5961-bd99-823c6f600d49@msapiro.net>
 <054cb5fb-2a15-3dff-cb62-9666b3bc8d02@neurotica.com>
 <fd6927f6-c347-d801-c308-c749ffdeb963@msapiro.net>
 <c9d4d411-4bd8-f12a-dd04-df715b71c882@neurotica.com>
 <4f2710b5-76b0-55d7-f920-0fb16cc68958@msapiro.net>
 <20170330200807.4ddf0873@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <8f7bdda5-913d-b270-537e-b9bacde6536e@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <20170330203548.7469f4ca@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 30, 2017, at 08:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:

>Interesting.  I know there's a pretty clear division between components in 3;
>can the web interface run on a separate machine and point to a remote
>instance of Mailman?

Yep!  It's somewhat important to keep in mind that the REST API of Core is a
fully administrative API.  It can be protected by some basic auth secrets, but
nothing more than that, so just make sure that the Core REST API isn't
published on some public IP address and you should be fine.

Cheers,
-Barry

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 30 20:59:50 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 17:59:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Any way to disable bounce subscription
 disabling for just certain users?
In-Reply-To: <948d38e1-46f0-c92a-59b4-046b97f1672e@bluegrasspals.com>
References: <948d38e1-46f0-c92a-59b4-046b97f1672e@bluegrasspals.com>
Message-ID: <397074b3-bad0-4875-67ec-c5be2f9ddf84@msapiro.net>

On 03/30/2017 03:30 PM, Jayson Smith wrote:
> 
> Is there any way to disable the automatic disabling of just specific
> member addresses? If I could find a way to do it, would setting their
> bounce score to something like negative 1,000,000,000 do the trick, or
> would Mailman just consider that the same as 0 and set it to 1 the next
> day?


I'm not sure, but I think that setting the users score to a large
negative number might work. It's worth a try.


> Thanks for any thoughts.

Another thing you can do is set

VERP_PROBES = Yes

in mm_cfg.py. This changes bounce processing in the following way.

When a user's score reaches threshold, The user's bounce info is reset
and a special probe message with a token in the envelope from address is
sent to the user. The body is built from templates/LC/probe.txt. The
user's delivery is only disabled if the probe bounces.

In your case, the probe will hopefully not be considered spam by the
user's ISP and won't bounce.

On the other hand, real undeliverable addresses will bounce the probe
and the user's delivery will be disabled and bounce processing will
proceed as in the non-probe case.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 30 21:20:08 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:20:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman brokenly base64-encoding all messages
In-Reply-To: <20170330233226.242hoqa33ovv22zt@unequivocal.eu>
References: <20170330090246.hpecn4veaqkxcyoc@unequivocal.eu>
 <9ec5d177-9050-06e1-9a26-71dc948fd576@msapiro.net>
 <20170330155801.lcd3owbhag32yee6@unequivocal.eu>
 <19df3cb2-4d92-0327-97b4-2497b57cd090@msapiro.net>
 <20170330233226.242hoqa33ovv22zt@unequivocal.eu>
Message-ID: <bfdedbd4-8f8f-d528-6bb2-22054e1f0d68@msapiro.net>

On 03/30/2017 04:32 PM, Jon Ribbens wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 10:22:08AM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> Sorry, I forgot. Debian's package ignores any charset argument you put
>> in add_language.
>>
>> You need to put
>>
>> LC_DESCRIPTIONS['en'] = ('English (USA)', 'us-ascii', 'ltr')
>>
>> in mm_cfg.py. I think that will work.
> 
> Awesome, that does indeed appear to work perfectly. Thank you.
> Shouldn't this be a FAQ? I looked there first but couldn't find
> anything relevant.


I'll think about a FAQ. This whole Debian/Ubuntu utf-8 encoding issue
has been a pain from the beginning for those of us (me) who've had to
pick up the pieces after things broke.

See for example the comment thread at
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1462755> and the archived
thread linked from comment #6.

Also, if you're interested, see the first paragraph at
<https://wiki.list.org/> about obtaining write access to the wiki if
you'd like to write something.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From zalezny.niezalezny at gmail.com  Fri Mar 31 07:07:33 2017
From: zalezny.niezalezny at gmail.com (Zalezny Niezalezny)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 13:07:33 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to remove [MASSMAIL] tag from the subject ?
In-Reply-To: <CAKPGuG8YhydLKqaGWbqerDnqz3ECrEahOcSsp0WsGRoX8-W_Bw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKPGuG9rEWeg=N-=UQAds+iBx9cBgzxngOm1Nyr==cV4oLEchg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKPGuG8YhydLKqaGWbqerDnqz3ECrEahOcSsp0WsGRoX8-W_Bw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKPGuG9U8dG76HB2APDrUoZXffXO7sDv3PwVNGTR08GHLgHtZQ@mail.gmail.com>

hi

i have removed prefix subject in the webpanel, but mailman still marking
outgping e-mails.

for some list its working for some not. what could be the reason ?

how to fix it ?


cheers
zalezny

From zalezny.niezalezny at gmail.com  Fri Mar 31 09:30:15 2017
From: zalezny.niezalezny at gmail.com (Zalezny Niezalezny)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:30:15 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] welcome message text ignoring break lines
Message-ID: <CAKPGuG8+-ZxTCJYHFZtGCstKUunnzpQ9YTHrYyg2OxMnuuhd=w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

why welcome message text ingoring break lines ?


instead of writting

test
test3
test4


its writting everything so

test test3 test4


How to manage that ?


Cheers

Zalezny

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 31 11:00:06 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:00:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to remove [MASSMAIL] tag from the subject ?
In-Reply-To: <CAKPGuG9U8dG76HB2APDrUoZXffXO7sDv3PwVNGTR08GHLgHtZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKPGuG9rEWeg=N-=UQAds+iBx9cBgzxngOm1Nyr==cV4oLEchg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKPGuG8YhydLKqaGWbqerDnqz3ECrEahOcSsp0WsGRoX8-W_Bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKPGuG9U8dG76HB2APDrUoZXffXO7sDv3PwVNGTR08GHLgHtZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <023fd878-de67-e976-96ec-7f43184db11f@msapiro.net>

On 03/31/2017 04:07 AM, Zalezny Niezalezny wrote:
> 
> i have removed prefix subject in the webpanel, but mailman still marking
> outgping e-mails.


If by the above, you mean that you have removed it from the item

Prefix for subject line of list postings.
(Details for subject_prefix)

on the list admin General Options page, that should be all that's required.


> for some list its working for some not. what could be the reason ?


Perhaps where you are still seeing the prefix, it is in a post which is
a reply to an older post that had the prefix in the subject.

I.e., if subject_prefix is empty, Mailman won't add anything to the
incoming Subject: header, but it also won't remove anything.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From hakon at alstadheim.priv.no  Fri Mar 31 03:45:14 2017
From: hakon at alstadheim.priv.no (=?UTF-8?Q?H=c3=a5kon_Alstadheim?=)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:45:14 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list-admin on gmail ?
Message-ID: <e1d3db70-c73c-89b4-c993-c332c5307739@alstadheim.priv.no>

I have a list administrator who is on gmail. Forwarding held 
spam-messages to him does not work, since google rejects mail that has 
spam attached. Is it possible to send notification of pending actions 
*without* attaching the held message?

---
H?kon


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 31 11:12:42 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:12:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] welcome message text ignoring break lines
In-Reply-To: <CAKPGuG8+-ZxTCJYHFZtGCstKUunnzpQ9YTHrYyg2OxMnuuhd=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKPGuG8+-ZxTCJYHFZtGCstKUunnzpQ9YTHrYyg2OxMnuuhd=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d0a4cd45-71d5-d7e4-08fc-808fe9172d07@msapiro.net>

On 03/31/2017 06:30 AM, Zalezny Niezalezny wrote:
> 
> why welcome message text ingoring break lines ?
> 
> 
> instead of writting
> 
> test
> test3
> test4
> 
> 
> its writting everything so
> 
> test test3 test4


Assuming you are talking about

List-specific text prepended to new-subscriber welcome message
(Details for welcome_msg)

if you follow the (Details for welcome_msg) link you will see the
details which include (in English anyway)

"""
Note that this text will be wrapped, according to the following rules:

    Each paragraph is filled so that no line is longer than 70 characters.
    Any line that begins with whitespace is not filled.
    A blank line separates paragraphs.
"""

So you can do one of two things:

1) enter

test

test3

test4

but this will double space the lines, or

2) enter

 test
 test3
 test4

i.e precede each line with a space to prevent filling.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From scott at qth.com  Fri Mar 31 11:13:49 2017
From: scott at qth.com (Scott Neader)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 10:13:49 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list-admin on gmail ?
In-Reply-To: <e1d3db70-c73c-89b4-c993-c332c5307739@alstadheim.priv.no>
References: <e1d3db70-c73c-89b4-c993-c332c5307739@alstadheim.priv.no>
Message-ID: <CAPLm_7BEd7FDJSybZBjR2nKnZFhiLtnycJ5jGcKCdyafPHvUew@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 2:45 AM, H?kon Alstadheim via Mailman-Users <
mailman-users at python.org> wrote:

> I have a list administrator who is on gmail. Forwarding held spam-messages
> to him does not work, since google rejects mail that has spam attached. Is
> it possible to send notification of pending actions *without* attaching the
> held message?


Hi H?kon.

This is an interesting question, and I'm interested in the answer.
However, since your user happens to be using GMail, you DO have a good
option to solve this:

The approval emails will come from:

FROM: listname-owner at example.com


The GMail user can simply create a "Filter" in GMail, that looks for
messages "from:listname-owner at example.com" and check the box that says
"Never send it to Spam".  Here's how:

http://blog.simplelists.com/make-sure-real-emails-dont-get-sent-to-spam-gmail-2015/

- Scott

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 31 11:41:40 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:41:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list-admin on gmail ?
In-Reply-To: <e1d3db70-c73c-89b4-c993-c332c5307739@alstadheim.priv.no>
References: <e1d3db70-c73c-89b4-c993-c332c5307739@alstadheim.priv.no>
Message-ID: <abff0e31-a234-9673-dc71-88decf3c1794@msapiro.net>

On 03/31/2017 12:45 AM, H?kon Alstadheim via Mailman-Users wrote:
> I have a list administrator who is on gmail. Forwarding held
> spam-messages to him does not work, since google rejects mail that has
> spam attached. Is it possible to send notification of pending actions
> *without* attaching the held message?


The notices sent upon holding a message when admin_immed_notify is Yes
will always contain the held message.

However, the daily summary of held messages does not contain the
messages themselves.

It would seem that if the immediate notification is "spam" and not
received, that there wouldn't be any urgency to deal with that before
the daily summary is sent anyway, so it doesn't seem to me that this is
really a problem.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 31 11:50:59 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:50:59 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list-admin on gmail ?
In-Reply-To: <CAPLm_7BEd7FDJSybZBjR2nKnZFhiLtnycJ5jGcKCdyafPHvUew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e1d3db70-c73c-89b4-c993-c332c5307739@alstadheim.priv.no>
 <CAPLm_7BEd7FDJSybZBjR2nKnZFhiLtnycJ5jGcKCdyafPHvUew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6aa7e5b1-eba8-609d-81aa-59a34c033516@msapiro.net>

On 03/31/2017 08:13 AM, Scott Neader wrote:
> 
> The GMail user can simply create a "Filter" in GMail, that looks for
> messages "from:listname-owner at example.com" and check the box that says
> "Never send it to Spam".  Here's how:
> 
> http://blog.simplelists.com/make-sure-real-emails-dont-get-sent-to-spam-gmail-2015/


I'm not certain, but I don't think this will work in this case. It will
certainly work if the message is ending up in the user's spam folder,
but I think the filtering is occurring earlier in this case. I.e., gmail
rejects the message at incoming SMTP time per

550-5.7.1 [2a03:b0c0:2:d0::71:1      12] Our system has detected that this
550-5.7.1 message is likely unsolicited mail. To reduce the amount of
spam sent
550-5.7.1 to Gmail, this message has been blocked. Please visit
550-5.7.1  https://support.google.com/mail/?p=UnsolicitedMessageError
550 5.7.1  for more information.

and the message never gets as far as the user's filters.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From hakon at alstadheim.priv.no  Fri Mar 31 13:05:03 2017
From: hakon at alstadheim.priv.no (=?UTF-8?Q?H=c3=a5kon_Alstadheim?=)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:05:03 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list-admin on gmail ?
In-Reply-To: <CAPLm_7BEd7FDJSybZBjR2nKnZFhiLtnycJ5jGcKCdyafPHvUew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e1d3db70-c73c-89b4-c993-c332c5307739@alstadheim.priv.no>
 <CAPLm_7BEd7FDJSybZBjR2nKnZFhiLtnycJ5jGcKCdyafPHvUew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17f10bd1-c88c-9041-ccf5-47ae1423bcdb@alstadheim.priv.no>



Den 31. mars 2017 17:13, skrev Scott Neader:
> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 2:45 AM, H?kon Alstadheim via
> Mailman-Users <mailman-users at python.org
> <mailto:mailman-users at python.org>> wrote:
>
>     I have a list administrator who is on gmail. Forwarding held
>     spam-messages to him does not work, since google rejects mail that
>     has spam attached. Is it possible to send notification of pending
>     actions *without* attaching the held message?
>
>
> Hi H?kon.
>
> This is an interesting question, and I'm interested in the answer.
> However, since your user happens to be using GMail, you DO have a good
> option to solve this:
>
> The approval emails will come from:
>
>     FROM: listname-owner at example.com <mailto:listname-owner at example.com>
>
>
> The GMail user can simply create a "Filter" in GMail, that looks for
> messages "from:listname-owner at example.com
> <mailto:from%3Alistname-owner at example.com>" and check the box that says
> "Never send it to Spam".  Here's how:
>
> http://blog.simplelists.com/make-sure-real-emails-dont-get-sent-to-spam-gmail-2015/
>

Slightly wrong description in my original report, I was jumping to 
conclusions. I see now it is my "smarthost" upstream outbound relay that 
is complaining, and rejecting (not just mis-filing):

Mar 31 09:05:51 garbo postfix-relay/smtp[27886]: 657FFC00036D: host 
smtp.altibox.no[109.247.116.10] said: 550 5.7.1 Rejected. This message 
has been marked as spam. client=148.252.117.52 job_id=441D780084 (in 
reply to end of DATA command)

So, I need to NOT send the attachment to get the "pending" mail to the 
list-admin.


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 31 13:52:50 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 10:52:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list-admin on gmail ?
In-Reply-To: <17f10bd1-c88c-9041-ccf5-47ae1423bcdb@alstadheim.priv.no>
References: <e1d3db70-c73c-89b4-c993-c332c5307739@alstadheim.priv.no>
 <CAPLm_7BEd7FDJSybZBjR2nKnZFhiLtnycJ5jGcKCdyafPHvUew@mail.gmail.com>
 <17f10bd1-c88c-9041-ccf5-47ae1423bcdb@alstadheim.priv.no>
Message-ID: <ca1bdeec-cc7d-7425-7ebd-a81e1935cdc0@msapiro.net>

On 03/31/2017 10:05 AM, H?kon Alstadheim via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> So, I need to NOT send the attachment to get the "pending" mail to the
> list-admin.


The only way to do that would be to modify the code in the
hold_for_approval function in Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py, but why do you
need to not send the attachment? As I indicate in my reply at
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2017-March/082071.html>,
if the message is spam, why is there any urgency in notifying the admin
of the held message? Isn't the next daily summary soon enough?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From hakon at alstadheim.priv.no  Fri Mar 31 15:12:49 2017
From: hakon at alstadheim.priv.no (=?UTF-8?Q?H=c3=a5kon_Alstadheim?=)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 21:12:49 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list-admin on gmail ?
In-Reply-To: <ca1bdeec-cc7d-7425-7ebd-a81e1935cdc0@msapiro.net>
References: <e1d3db70-c73c-89b4-c993-c332c5307739@alstadheim.priv.no>
 <CAPLm_7BEd7FDJSybZBjR2nKnZFhiLtnycJ5jGcKCdyafPHvUew@mail.gmail.com>
 <17f10bd1-c88c-9041-ccf5-47ae1423bcdb@alstadheim.priv.no>
 <ca1bdeec-cc7d-7425-7ebd-a81e1935cdc0@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <610c2b1f-1119-5dfd-cf89-1ff1c1733345@alstadheim.priv.no>



Den 31. mars 2017 19:52, skrev Mark Sapiro:
> On 03/31/2017 10:05 AM, H?kon Alstadheim via Mailman-Users wrote:
>>
>> So, I need to NOT send the attachment to get the "pending" mail to the
>> list-admin.
>
>
> The only way to do that would be to modify the code in the
> hold_for_approval function in Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py,
Thanks for the tip, I actually might do that. At least I feel I can give 
attempts at changing the config a rest.

  but why do you
> need to not send the attachment? As I indicate in my reply at
> <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2017-March/082071.html>,
> if the message is spam, why is there any urgency in notifying the admin
> of the held message? Isn't the next daily summary soon enough?
>

Sure, daily summary should be fine, but on a bad day these 
non-deliverable admin-emails will add up, and postfix keeps trying to 
deliver them. So my logs show quite a few failed delivery attempts. 
Queue of undeliverable mail grows. Neat-freak in me gets very jumpy.

Like I say elsewhere, slight mis-reporting on my part, it's my 
"smart-host" up-stream out-going smtp that is rejecting the mail w\ 
spam-attachments.


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 31 16:41:29 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 13:41:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list-admin on gmail ?
In-Reply-To: <610c2b1f-1119-5dfd-cf89-1ff1c1733345@alstadheim.priv.no>
References: <e1d3db70-c73c-89b4-c993-c332c5307739@alstadheim.priv.no>
 <CAPLm_7BEd7FDJSybZBjR2nKnZFhiLtnycJ5jGcKCdyafPHvUew@mail.gmail.com>
 <17f10bd1-c88c-9041-ccf5-47ae1423bcdb@alstadheim.priv.no>
 <ca1bdeec-cc7d-7425-7ebd-a81e1935cdc0@msapiro.net>
 <610c2b1f-1119-5dfd-cf89-1ff1c1733345@alstadheim.priv.no>
Message-ID: <7dab1bcf-5634-a201-1ec1-e431f2c4dc86@msapiro.net>

On 03/31/2017 12:12 PM, H?kon Alstadheim via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> 
> Sure, daily summary should be fine, but on a bad day these
> non-deliverable admin-emails will add up, and postfix keeps trying to
> deliver them. So my logs show quite a few failed delivery attempts.
> Queue of undeliverable mail grows. Neat-freak in me gets very jumpy.
> 
> Like I say elsewhere, slight mis-reporting on my part, it's my
> "smart-host" up-stream out-going smtp that is rejecting the mail w\
> spam-attachments.


The "smart host" doesn't seem very smart if it is rejecting spam mail
with a 4xx (retryable) and not a 5xx (failure) status.

Another thought is just turn off admin_immed_notify, but of course that
will also turn off notices for mail that might not be spam.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From hakon at alstadheim.priv.no  Fri Mar 31 17:28:04 2017
From: hakon at alstadheim.priv.no (=?UTF-8?Q?H=c3=a5kon_Alstadheim?=)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 23:28:04 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list-admin on gmail ?
In-Reply-To: <7dab1bcf-5634-a201-1ec1-e431f2c4dc86@msapiro.net>
References: <e1d3db70-c73c-89b4-c993-c332c5307739@alstadheim.priv.no>
 <CAPLm_7BEd7FDJSybZBjR2nKnZFhiLtnycJ5jGcKCdyafPHvUew@mail.gmail.com>
 <17f10bd1-c88c-9041-ccf5-47ae1423bcdb@alstadheim.priv.no>
 <ca1bdeec-cc7d-7425-7ebd-a81e1935cdc0@msapiro.net>
 <610c2b1f-1119-5dfd-cf89-1ff1c1733345@alstadheim.priv.no>
 <7dab1bcf-5634-a201-1ec1-e431f2c4dc86@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <f44cac72-8e49-88d8-4540-bed6c35ff46c@alstadheim.priv.no>



Den 31. mars 2017 22:41, skrev Mark Sapiro:
> On 03/31/2017 12:12 PM, H?kon Alstadheim via Mailman-Users wrote:
>>
>>
>> Sure, daily summary should be fine, but on a bad day these
>> non-deliverable admin-emails will add up, and postfix keeps trying to
>> deliver them. So my logs show quite a few failed delivery attempts.
>> Queue of undeliverable mail grows. Neat-freak in me gets very jumpy.
>>
>> Like I say elsewhere, slight mis-reporting on my part, it's my
>> "smart-host" up-stream out-going smtp that is rejecting the mail w\
>> spam-attachments.
>
>
> The "smart host" doesn't seem very smart if it is rejecting spam mail
> with a 4xx (retryable) and not a 5xx (failure) status.

Partly my fault I suppose, I've got various settings tuned to avoid 
losing mail during testing of my new mail-setup. This whole exercise 
started because I have switched from dSpam to rspamd for 
spam-prevention. I had a whole forest of postfix-instances to fine tune 
things so spam-filtering was done before alias-expansion and after 
spf/dkim checks. Lots of other tweaks. I did have a working web-based 
quarantine though. Presently doing major demolition and converting to 
rmilter/rspamd, without quarantine. This means mailman gets to do the 
quarantine duty for spam to my lists.

I'm confident that the end-result will be less spaghetti-like, but I'm 
not there yet :-) . Also my rspamd is not fully trained and tested.

>
> Another thought is just turn off admin_immed_notify, but of course that
> will also turn off notices for mail that might not be spam.
>

Done that, seems it did not "take" immediately. Spam flood has abated 
now, hopefully a few days to the next storm, by which time things will 
be in better shape.