From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jun  2 21:59:53 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 18:59:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.24 released
Message-ID: <edb090c6-caf4-85dd-da85-7caa2160cbe5@msapiro.net>

I am pleased to announce the release of Mailman 2.1.24.

Python 2.4 is the minimum supported, but Python 2.7 is strongly recommended.

This release has a few new features, a few i18n updates and several bug
fixes. See the attached README.txt for details.

Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and
e-newsletters. Mailman is used for all the python.org and
SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.

For more information, please see our web site at one of:

http://www.list.org
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman
http://mailman.sourceforge.net/
http://mirror.list.org/

Mailman 2.1.24 can be downloaded from

https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/
http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/    (not yet updated as of this writing)
https://sourceforge.net/projects/mailman/

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
-------------- next part --------------
2.1.24 (02-Jun-2017)

  Security

    - A most likely unexploitable XSS attach that relies on the Mailman web
      server passing a crafted Host: header to the CGI environment has been
      fixed.  Apache for one is not vulnerable.  Thanks to Alqnas Eslam.

  New Features

    - There is a new RCPT_BASE64_HEADER_NAME setting.  If this is set to a
      non-empty string, that string is the name of a header that will be added
      to personalized and VERPed deliveries with value equal to the base64
      encoding of the recipient's email address.  This is intended to enable
      identification of the recipient otherwise redacted from "spam report"
      feedback loop messages.

    - cron/senddigests has a new -e/--exceptlist option to send pending
      digests for all but a named list.  (LP: #1619770)

    - The values for DEFAULT_DIGEST_FOOTER and DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER have been
      changed to use a standard signature separator for DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER
      and to remove the unneded line of underscores from DEFAULT_DIGEST_FOOTER.
      (LP: #266269)

  i18n

    - The Polish html templates have been recoded to use html entities
      instead of non-ascii characters.

    - The Basque (Euskara) translation has been updated by Gari Araolaza.

    - The German "details for personalize" page has been updated by
      Christian F Buser.

    - The Japanese translation has been updated by Yasuhito FUTATSUKI.

  Bug fixes and other patches

    - The list-owner at virtual.domain addresses are now added to virtual-mailman
      as they are exposed in 'list created' emails.  (LP: 1694384)

    - The 'list run by' addresses in web page footers are now just the
      list-owner address.  (LP: #1694384)

    - Changed member_verbosity_threshold from a >= test to a strictly > test
      to avoid the issue of moderating every post when the threshold = 1.
      (LP: #1693366)

    - Subject prefixing has been improved to always have a space between
      the prefix and the subject even with non-ascii in the prefix.  This
      will sometimes result in two spaces when the prefix is non-ascii but
      the subject is ascii, but this is the lesser evil.  (LP: #1525954)

    - Treat message and digest headers and footers as empty if they contain
      only whitespace.  (LP: #1673307)

    - Ensured that added message and digest headers and footers always have
      a terminating new-line.  (LP: #1670033)

    - Fixed an uncaught TypeError in the subscribe CGI.  (LP: #1667215)

    - Added recognition for a newly seen mailEnable bounce.

    - Fixed an uncaught NotAMemberError when a member is removed before a
      probe bounce for the member is returned.  (LP: #1664729)

    - Fixed a TypeError thrown in the roster CGI when called with a listname
      containing a % character.  (LP: #1661810)

    - Fixed a NameError issue in bin/add_members with
      DISABLE_COMMAND_LOCALE_CSET = yes.  (LP: #1647450)

    - The CleanseDKIM handler has been removed from OWNER_PIPELINE.  It isn't
      needed there and has adverse DMARC implications for messages to -owner
      of an anonymous list.  (LP: #1645901)

    - Fixed an issue with properly RFC 2047 encoding the display name in the
      From: header for messages with DMARC mitigations.  (LP: #1643210)

    - Fixed an issue causing UnicodeError in sending digests following a
      change of a list's preferred_language.  (LP: #1644356)

    - Enhanced the fix for race conditions in MailList().Load().  (LP: #266464)

    - Fixed a typo in Utils.py that could have resulted in a NameError in
      logging an unlikely occurrence.  (LP: #1637745)

    - Fixed a bug which created incorrect "view more members" links at the
      bottom of the admin Membership List pages.  (LP: #1637061)

    - The 2.1.23 fix for LP: #1604544 only fixed the letter links at the top
      of the Membership List.  The links at the bottom have now been fixed.

    - paths.py now adds dist-packages as well as site-packages to sys.path.
      (LP: #1621172)

    - INIT INFO has been added to the sample init.d script.  (LP: #1620121)

-------------- next part --------------
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From sp2l at sp2l.ampr.org  Fri Jun  2 13:03:01 2017
From: sp2l at sp2l.ampr.org (sp2l)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 20:03:01 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-2.1.23 and reCAPTCHA
Message-ID: <2E2CE3BFE4534A74A6F10CFF65CCADD6@Sibro>

Greetings.


Does somebody  succeeded intergating
reCAPTCHA to Mailman-2.1.23 ?

I tried belows:
https://www.dragonsreach.it/2014/05/03/adding-recaptcha-support-to-mailman/


but unsuccessfully...

Mailman reports the following:

Jun 02 18:07:09 2017 admin(4038): @@@@@@@@@@
admin(4038): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.23 -----] 
admin(4038): [----- Traceback ------] 
admin(4038): Traceback (most recent call last):
admin(4038):   File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/driver", line 102, in run_main
admin(4038):     pkg = __import__('Mailman.Cgi', globals(), locals(), [scriptname])
admin(4038):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py", line 37, in <module>
admin(4038):    from recaptcha.client import captcha
admin(4038): ImportError: No module named recaptcha.client
admin(4038): [----- Python Information -----] 
admin(4038): sys.version     =   2.7.9 (default, Aug 13 2016, 16:41:35) 
[GCC 4.9.2] 
admin(4038): sys.executable  =   /usr/bin/python 
admin(4038): sys.prefix      =   /usr 
admin(4038): sys.exec_prefix =   /usr 
admin(4038): sys.path        =   ['/usr/local/mailman/pythonlib', '/usr/local/mailman', '/usr/local/mailman/scripts', '/usr/local/mailman', '/usr/lib/python2.7/', '/usr/lib/python2.7/plat-i386-linux-gnu', '/usr/lib/python2.7/lib-tk', '/usr/lib/python2.7/lib-old', '/usr/lib/python2.7/lib-dynload', '/usr/lib/python2.7/site-packages', '/usr/share/pyshared'] 
admin(4038): sys.platform    =   linux2 
admin(4038): [----- Environment Variables -----] 
admin(4038): HTTP_COOKIE: fusion27SN8_visited=yes; fusion27SN8_cookieconsent=yes; mailviewsplitterv=165; mailviewsplitter=205; phpipam=ipe9n75m8erj33340dn786bcf2 
admin(4038): CONTEXT_DOCUMENT_ROOT: /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/ 
admin(4038): SERVER_SOFTWARE: Apache/2.4.10 (Debian) 
admin(4038): CONTEXT_PREFIX: /mailman/ 
admin(4038): SERVER_SIGNATURE: <address>Apache/2.4.10 (Debian) Server at www.sp2l.ampr.org Port 80</address>
admin(4038): 
admin(4038): REQUEST_METHOD: GET 
admin(4038): SERVER_PROTOCOL: HTTP/1.1 
admin(4038): QUERY_STRING:  
admin(4038): HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/45.0 
admin(4038): HTTP_CONNECTION: keep-alive 
admin(4038): HTTP_REFERER: http://www.sp2l.ampr.org/news.php 
admin(4038): SERVER_NAME: www.sp2l.ampr.org 
admin(4038): REMOTE_ADDR: 87.251.250.110 
admin(4038): SERVER_PORT: 80 
admin(4038): SERVER_ADDR: 192.168.0.101 
admin(4038): DOCUMENT_ROOT: /var/www 
admin(4038): PYTHONPATH: /usr/local/mailman 
admin(4038): SCRIPT_FILENAME: /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo 
admin(4038): SERVER_ADMIN: SP2L at wp.pl 
admin(4038): HTTP_HOST: www.sp2l.ampr.org 
admin(4038): SCRIPT_NAME: /mailman/listinfo 
admin(4038): HTTP_CACHE_CONTROL: max-age=0 
admin(4038): REQUEST_URI: /mailman/listinfo 
admin(4038): HTTP_ACCEPT: text/html,application/xhtml+xml,application/xml;q=0.9,*/*;q=0.8 
admin(4038): GATEWAY_INTERFACE: CGI/1.1 
admin(4038): REMOTE_PORT: 42610 
admin(4038): HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE: en-US,en;q=0.5 
admin(4038): REQUEST_SCHEME: http 
admin(4038): HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING: gzip, deflate 

===================================================



1. Mailman-2.1.23  ? installed, up&running
2. python-recaptcha  ? installed
3. System Debian-8.8./32b - updated to date.



Best regards.
Tom ? SP2L

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun  3 18:04:38 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 15:04:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-2.1.23 and reCAPTCHA
In-Reply-To: <2E2CE3BFE4534A74A6F10CFF65CCADD6@Sibro>
References: <2E2CE3BFE4534A74A6F10CFF65CCADD6@Sibro>
Message-ID: <2a9ec205-5cdd-db6e-e5c0-518d0f4064ac@msapiro.net>

On 06/02/2017 10:03 AM, sp2l wrote:
> Greetings.
> 
> 
> Does somebody  succeeded intergating
> reCAPTCHA to Mailman-2.1.23 ?
> 
> I tried belows:
> https://www.dragonsreach.it/2014/05/03/adding-recaptcha-support-to-mailman/
> 
> 
> but unsuccessfully...
> 
> Mailman reports the following:
> 
> Jun 02 18:07:09 2017 admin(4038): @@@@@@@@@@
> admin(4038): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.23 -----] 
> admin(4038): [----- Traceback ------] 
> admin(4038): Traceback (most recent call last):
> admin(4038):   File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/driver", line 102, in run_main
> admin(4038):     pkg = __import__('Mailman.Cgi', globals(), locals(), [scriptname])
> admin(4038):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py", line 37, in <module>
> admin(4038):    from recaptcha.client import captcha
> admin(4038): ImportError: No module named recaptcha.client


The patch you installed requires the installation of recaptcha-client
<https://pypi.python.org/pypi/recaptcha-client/>.

This is not recaptcha <https://pypi.python.org/pypi/recaptcha/1.0rc1>.

sudo pip install recaptcha-client

should do it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From luscheina at yahoo.de  Sun Jun  4 13:16:48 2017
From: luscheina at yahoo.de (Christian F Buser)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 19:16:48 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderator action requested for a new subscription?
Message-ID: <20170604191648673631.e7e87cf4@yahoo.de>

Hi 

For one of my (5) lists, I received today a request to approve a new subscriber. 

No problem, I thought - there might just be a setting which I have missed, because the list should work without such an approval. But: I did not see any difference to any of the other lists. 

All have the following options set on the first page of the list setup:

"Send reminders" = No
"Send welcome msg" = Yes
"Send goodbye msg" = Yes
"Admin immed notify" = Yes
"Admin notify mchanges" = No
"Respond to post requests" = Yes

I can?t find any other setting which would require me to approve new members. But maybe there is one I missed? 

Mailman 2.1.23 on cPanel installation. 

Tahnk you for advice, Christian 

-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)      
Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Sun Jun  4 14:58:08 2017
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 14:58:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderator action requested for a new
 subscription?
In-Reply-To: <20170604191648673631.e7e87cf4@yahoo.de>
References: <20170604191648673631.e7e87cf4@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <4625bfc7-13dc-38b4-25d6-277ce481aac3@Damon-Family.org>

On 6/4/17 1:16 PM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Hi
>
> For one of my (5) lists, I received today a request to approve a new subscriber.
>
> No problem, I thought - there might just be a setting which I have missed, because the list should work without such an approval. But: I did not see any difference to any of the other lists.
>
> All have the following options set on the first page of the list setup:
>
> "Send reminders" = No
> "Send welcome msg" = Yes
> "Send goodbye msg" = Yes
> "Admin immed notify" = Yes
> "Admin notify mchanges" = No
> "Respond to post requests" = Yes
>
> I can?t find any other setting which would require me to approve new members. But maybe there is one I missed?
>
> Mailman 2.1.23 on cPanel installation.
>
> Tahnk you for advice, Christian
>
See Privacy Options / Subscription Rules / subscribe_policy

Sounds like it is set to "Require Approval" or "Confirm and Approve" 
instead of "Confirm"

-- 
Richard Damon


From luscheina at yahoo.de  Sun Jun  4 17:01:21 2017
From: luscheina at yahoo.de (Christian F Buser)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 23:01:21 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderator action requested for a new
 subscription?
In-Reply-To: <4625bfc7-13dc-38b4-25d6-277ce481aac3@Damon-Family.org>
References: <20170604191648673631.e7e87cf4@yahoo.de>
 <4625bfc7-13dc-38b4-25d6-277ce481aac3@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <20170604230121588171.efb5adc3@yahoo.de>

Hello Richard Damon. On Sun, 4 Jun 2017 14:58:08 -0400, you wrote:
> On 6/4/17 1:16 PM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> For one of my (5) lists, I received today a request to approve a new 
>> subscriber.
>> 
>> No problem, I thought - there might just be a setting which I have 
>> missed, because the list should work without such an approval. But: 
>> I did not see any difference to any of the other lists.
>> 
>> All have the following options set on the first page of the list setup:
>> 
>> "Send reminders" = No
>> "Send welcome msg" = Yes
>> "Send goodbye msg" = Yes
>> "Admin immed notify" = Yes
>> "Admin notify mchanges" = No
>> "Respond to post requests" = Yes
>> 
>> I can?t find any other setting which would require me to approve new 
>> members. But maybe there is one I missed?
>> 
>> Mailman 2.1.23 on cPanel installation.
>> 
>> Tahnk you for advice, Christian
>> 
> See Privacy Options / Subscription Rules / subscribe_policy
> 
> Sounds like it is set to "Require Approval" or "Confirm and Approve" 
> instead of "Confirm"

Thank you for the quick help, that was it!

Christian 
-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)      
Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org

From sp2l at sp2l.ampr.org  Mon Jun  5 13:43:00 2017
From: sp2l at sp2l.ampr.org (sp2l)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 20:43:00 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-2.1.23 and reCAPTCHA
In-Reply-To: <2a9ec205-5cdd-db6e-e5c0-518d0f4064ac@msapiro.net>
References: <2E2CE3BFE4534A74A6F10CFF65CCADD6@Sibro>
 <2a9ec205-5cdd-db6e-e5c0-518d0f4064ac@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1E48A05BBCC7450F93F637884178267A@Sibro>


-----Original message ----- 
From: Mark Sapiro
Sent: Sunday, June 4, 2017 1:04 AM
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-2.1.23 and reCAPTCHA

...


The patch you installed requires the installation of recaptcha-client
<https://pypi.python.org/pypi/recaptcha-client/>.

This is not recaptcha <https://pypi.python.org/pypi/recaptcha/1.0rc1>.

sudo pip install recaptcha-client

should do it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
------------------------------------------------------



Hello Mark.

Thank you for your suggestion,
but apparently this was not the case...

When I ran "pip install recaptcha-client"
I got the following message:

   root at linux:# pip install recaptcha-client
   Requirement already satisfied (use --upgrade to upgrade): 
recaptcha-client in /usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages
   Cleaning up...
   root at linux:#

So, it appears that installing python-recaptcha,
module recaptcha-client got installed too.

Therefore I startet to look at issue from a different point of view.

The error message was:
   admin(4038):    from recaptcha.client import captcha
   admin(4038):    ImportError: No module named recaptcha.client

Looking at the directory tree I noticed the following chain:
/usr / share / pyshared / recaptcha / client

There _IS NEITHER_  recaptcha.client
_NOR_  recaptcha-client  directory.

In patch supplied by this article:
   https://www.dragonsreach.it/2014/05/03/adding-recaptcha-support-to-mailman/

there are twice two lines:

   sys.path.append("/usr/share/pyshared")
   from recaptcha.client import captcha

Changed them to read:

   sys.path.append("/usr/share/pyshared/recaptcha")
   from client import captcha

This way achieved success to have at least
properly displayed and working recaptcha box.

Please navigate to one of test lists to see above:

   http://www.sp2l.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo

After filling the form, satisfying recaptcha requirements
then clicking "Subscribe" I received another error message
in web browser window:

   Bug in Mailman version 2.1.23

   We're sorry, we hit a bug!

   Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem.
   Printing of traceback and other system information has been explicitly 
inhibited,
   but the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs.

Checked mailman error log file and noticed the following:

   Jun 05 20:20:03 2017 admin(23429): @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@.
   admin(23429): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.23 -----].
   admin(23429): [----- Traceback ------].
   admin(23429): Traceback (most recent call last):
   admin(23429):   File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/driver", line 102, in 
run_main
   admin(23429):     pkg = __import__('Mailman.Cgi', globals(), locals(), 
[scriptname])
   admin(23429):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/subscribe.py", line 
149
   admin(23429):     if email == mlist.GetListEmail():
   admin(23429):                                                       ^
   admin(23429): IndentationError: unindent does not match any outer 
indentation level


At this point I am simply stucked...
All suggestions, advices are very welcomed.

BTW, should recaptcha box be positioned
at the bottom of browser window?



Best regards.
Tom - SP2L


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun  5 20:18:09 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 17:18:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-2.1.23 and reCAPTCHA
In-Reply-To: <1E48A05BBCC7450F93F637884178267A@Sibro>
References: <2E2CE3BFE4534A74A6F10CFF65CCADD6@Sibro>
 <2a9ec205-5cdd-db6e-e5c0-518d0f4064ac@msapiro.net>
 <1E48A05BBCC7450F93F637884178267A@Sibro>
Message-ID: <f4868bb9-8b4d-25ac-6f17-b356b66885cb@msapiro.net>

On 06/05/2017 10:43 AM, sp2l wrote:

> When I ran "pip install recaptcha-client"
> I got the following message:
> 
>   root at linux:# pip install recaptcha-client
>   Requirement already satisfied (use --upgrade to upgrade): recaptcha-client in /usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages
>   Cleaning up...
>   root at linux:#
> 
> So, it appears that installing python-recaptcha,
> module recaptcha-client got installed too.
> 
> Therefore I startet to look at issue from a different point of view.
> 
> The error message was:
>   admin(4038):    from recaptcha.client import captcha
>   admin(4038):    ImportError: No module named recaptcha.client
> 
> Looking at the directory tree I noticed the following chain:
> /usr / share / pyshared / recaptcha / client
> 
> There _IS NEITHER_  recaptcha.client
> _NOR_  recaptcha-client  directory.


You need to understand how Python imports work. The recaptcha/client
directory contains both __init__.py and captcha.py. Thus the

from recaptcha.client import captcha

statement will import the captcha.py file from recaptcha/client/

This is all as it should be. If the import fails it is because
/usr/share/pyshared/ is not in Python's path. This is not too surprising
as it this would normally be installed in
/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/ rather than /usr/share/pyshared/.


> In patch supplied by this article:
>   https://www.dragonsreach.it/2014/05/03/adding-recaptcha-support-to-mailman/
> 
> there are twice two lines:
> 
>   sys.path.append("/usr/share/pyshared")
>   from recaptcha.client import captcha
> 
> Changed them to read:
> 
>   sys.path.append("/usr/share/pyshared/recaptcha")
>   from client import captcha
> 
> This way achieved success to have at least
> properly displayed and working recaptcha box.


OK. That's an acceptable work-around. Possibly the issue is there is no
__init__.py file in the distributed recaptcha/ directory. Possibly just

touch /usr/share/pyshared/recaptcha/__init__.py

would also enable this.


> Checked mailman error log file and noticed the following:
> 
>   Jun 05 20:20:03 2017 admin(23429): @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@.
>   admin(23429): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.23 -----].
>   admin(23429): [----- Traceback ------].
>   admin(23429): Traceback (most recent call last):
>   admin(23429):   File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/driver", line 102, in run_main
>   admin(23429):     pkg = __import__('Mailman.Cgi', globals(), locals(), [scriptname])
>   admin(23429):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/subscribe.py", line 149
>   admin(23429):     if email == mlist.GetListEmail():
>   admin(23429):                                                       ^
>   admin(23429): IndentationError: unindent does not match any outer indentation level


In the process of applying the patch and/or editing the file, you have
broken the formatting of /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/subscribe.py

The patched code beginning around line 130 should look like

     remote = os.environ.get('REMOTE_HOST',
                             os.environ.get('REMOTE_ADDR',
                                            'unidentified origin'))

     # recaptcha
     captcha_response = captcha.submit(
         cgidata.getvalue('recaptcha_challenge_field', ""),
         cgidata.getvalue('recaptcha_response_field', ""),
         mm_cfg.RECAPTCHA_PRIVATE_KEY,
         remote,
         )
     if not captcha_response.is_valid:
         results.append(_('Invalid captcha'))

      # Was an attempt made to subscribe the list to itself?
      if email == mlist.GetListEmail():
          syslog('mischief', 'Attempt to self subscribe %s: %s', email,
remote)

The lines

     remote = os.environ.get('REMOTE_HOST',
     # recaptcha
     captcha_response = captcha.submit(
     if not captcha_response.is_valid:
     # Was an attempt made to subscribe the list to itself?
     if email == mlist.GetListEmail():

in the above MUST be indented exactly 4 spaces, no tabs

> At this point I am simply stucked...
> All suggestions, advices are very welcomed.
> 
> BTW, should recaptcha box be positioned
> at the bottom of browser window?


Questions such as this should be addressed to the author of the patch.
See <https://wiki.list.org/x/12812344>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From SP2L at sp2l.ampr.org  Tue Jun  6 10:23:32 2017
From: SP2L at sp2l.ampr.org (SP2L)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2017 16:23:32 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-2.1.23 and reCAPTCHA
In-Reply-To: <f4868bb9-8b4d-25ac-6f17-b356b66885cb@msapiro.net>
References: <2E2CE3BFE4534A74A6F10CFF65CCADD6@Sibro>
 <2a9ec205-5cdd-db6e-e5c0-518d0f4064ac@msapiro.net>
 <1E48A05BBCC7450F93F637884178267A@Sibro>
 <f4868bb9-8b4d-25ac-6f17-b356b66885cb@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <15c7dca06b8.2829.0d5d507b467de5f1925475a5a25b732f@sp2l.ampr.org>

Hello Mark.


First of all I thank you very much for such
complex and self-explanatory elucidation.

Now, I need to say  _NOT GUILTY_  in regards everything
what is beyound control of regular Linux system
user when installing OS from original DVD disc.
I mean for instance, which packages and where
being placed by installation routine.

1. The recaptcha/client directory contained from
     the beginning both __init__.py and captcha.py.
     So, "touch /usr/share/pyshared/recaptcha/__init__.py"
     wasn't necessary.

2. The two directories:
        /usr/share/pyshared/
        /usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages
     were created during system install time.

3. Removed  __one additional__  space character
    before " if not...", thus solving indent issue.


Yet another problem emerged:
"Invalid captcha" message,
regardless of correct response to captcha.

Need to search for solution.


Best regards.

---
Tom - SP2L

Sent from Xperia Z1 with AquaMail
http:/?/?www?.?aqua-mail?.?com




From SP2L at sp2l.ampr.org  Tue Jun  6 10:58:02 2017
From: SP2L at sp2l.ampr.org (SP2L)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2017 16:58:02 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-2.1.23 and reCAPTCHA
In-Reply-To: <f4868bb9-8b4d-25ac-6f17-b356b66885cb@msapiro.net>
References: <2E2CE3BFE4534A74A6F10CFF65CCADD6@Sibro>
 <2a9ec205-5cdd-db6e-e5c0-518d0f4064ac@msapiro.net>
 <1E48A05BBCC7450F93F637884178267A@Sibro>
 <f4868bb9-8b4d-25ac-6f17-b356b66885cb@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <15c7de9a090.2829.0d5d507b467de5f1925475a5a25b732f@sp2l.ampr.org>

Mark.


Location  /usr/share/pyshared seem to be
specific to Debian as I just checked my old
Debian-7.11 where exactly the same exists.


Best regards.
---
Tom - SP2L

Sent from Xperia Z1 with AquaMail
http:/?/?www?.?aqua-mail?.?com




From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun  6 12:29:10 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 09:29:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-2.1.23 and reCAPTCHA
In-Reply-To: <15c7dca06b8.2829.0d5d507b467de5f1925475a5a25b732f@sp2l.ampr.org>
References: <2E2CE3BFE4534A74A6F10CFF65CCADD6@Sibro>
 <2a9ec205-5cdd-db6e-e5c0-518d0f4064ac@msapiro.net>
 <1E48A05BBCC7450F93F637884178267A@Sibro>
 <f4868bb9-8b4d-25ac-6f17-b356b66885cb@msapiro.net>
 <15c7dca06b8.2829.0d5d507b467de5f1925475a5a25b732f@sp2l.ampr.org>
Message-ID: <cacaa8df-064e-8f94-42df-7a985ea537de@msapiro.net>

On 06/06/2017 07:23 AM, SP2L wrote:
> 
> 1. The recaptcha/client directory contained from
>     the beginning both __init__.py and captcha.py.
>     So, "touch /usr/share/pyshared/recaptcha/__init__.py"
>     wasn't necessary.


I know that the recaptcha-client package contains
recaptcha/client/__init__.py. I was suggesting that for some unknown
reason, it may also need recaptcha/__init__.py. In order for a directory
to be recognized as a Python module, it must contain a (possibly empty)
__init__.py.


> Yet another problem emerged:
> "Invalid captcha" message,
> regardless of correct response to captcha.
> 
> Need to search for solution.


I can't help with that one.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From brennan at columbia.edu  Tue Jun  6 15:11:20 2017
From: brennan at columbia.edu (Joseph Brennan)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 15:11:20 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Authenticated Received Chain in Mailman?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1705302228340.9845@pannier.local>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1705302228340.9845@pannier.local>
Message-ID: <CAMSGcLBJL6Y6k9oD+sXQ9A0gNVVbO+-FyZYmeS5ceZV-44v22A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Brett Delmage
<Brett at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca> wrote:
> Will Mailman 2 or 3 be incorporating Authenticated Received Chain (ARC) http://arc-spec.org/ ?


Wonderful, another offering of "This document is not an Internet
Standards Track specification; it is published for informational
purposes" adding further complexity to email in a mad attempt to make
up for the "potential" (?) problems that the previous "informational"
one (DMARC) has done to mailing lists.

It would be too easy for email-reading software to show me the address
of the sender and the name of the system that handed the message to my
system, and let me use my own common sense to decide whether it's
spoofed.

Well, we have to play the cards we're dealt. Onward.

Joseph Brennan
Columbia University


From jimpop at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 16:40:11 2017
From: jimpop at gmail.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 16:40:11 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Authenticated Received Chain in Mailman?
In-Reply-To: <CAMSGcLBJL6Y6k9oD+sXQ9A0gNVVbO+-FyZYmeS5ceZV-44v22A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1705302228340.9845@pannier.local>
 <CAMSGcLBJL6Y6k9oD+sXQ9A0gNVVbO+-FyZYmeS5ceZV-44v22A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGfsgR3-c4NCQ3_esR9ejQLVPZdo_koBjSD-Gi+4L_OPJNv8Tg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Joseph Brennan <brennan at columbia.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Brett Delmage
> <Brett at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca> wrote:
>> Will Mailman 2 or 3 be incorporating Authenticated Received Chain (ARC) http://arc-spec.org/ ?
>
>
> Wonderful, another offering of "This document is not an Internet
> Standards Track specification; it is published for informational
> purposes" adding further complexity to email in a mad attempt to make
> up for the "potential" (?) problems that the previous "informational"
> one (DMARC) has done to mailing lists.

In the Spam fighting world these have been happening for so long they
are known as FUSSPs.

Fret not, a year or two after ARC the same people will come along with
a new spec and insist that everyone support it.  It's kind of like a
mafia, "do this or we'll shame you into doing it by promoting your
competitors on our website".

-Jim P.

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Thu Jun  8 02:56:12 2017
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 15:56:12 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Authenticated Received Chain in Mailman?
In-Reply-To: <CAMSGcLBJL6Y6k9oD+sXQ9A0gNVVbO+-FyZYmeS5ceZV-44v22A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1705302228340.9845@pannier.local>
 <CAMSGcLBJL6Y6k9oD+sXQ9A0gNVVbO+-FyZYmeS5ceZV-44v22A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22840.62732.9399.783328@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Joseph Brennan writes:

 > Wonderful, another offering of "This document is not an Internet
 > Standards Track specification; it is published for informational
 > purposes" adding further complexity to email in a mad attempt to make
 > up for the "potential" (?) problems that the previous "informational"
 > one (DMARC) has done to mailing lists.

Have you actually participated in IETF decision-making?  It's complex
and political.

I am not pleased with Yahoo! and AOL, but at least they're honest
about what they've done.  On the other side, there are Certain Parties
who show up every time mail abuse gets discussed, arguing for
solutions that are as bad as the disease (not to mention scaling
poorly).  It could be worse (the IETF could be run by the Republican
Party), but it wouldn't be *much* worse.  There's also the problem
that it's not clear whether the 800-lb gorillas would be willing to go
along with some of the changes that the Reasonable People Among Us
seemed to favor.  This way, at least we have a standard.

Furthermore, IMHO, as Internet standards go (whether "Standards Track"
or "Informational") DMARC is a high quality standard, something that
people will be willing to conform to with little ambiguity.
Admittedly, it has been abused by at least two large providers, but
not to the extent nor the harm that RFCs 821 and 822 have. :-/

ARC is also looking to be a good standard, potentially useful for
mailing lists, and it's being pushed by the same large providers who
are problems (real and potential) for mailing lists.  If Yahoo! and
AOL come on board in a timely fashion, ARC will help a lot.  My
expectation is that Yahoo! will be there, although their financial
situation exudes the stench of reorganization.  AOL is more dubious.
Good intentions from their IETF delegates, but they've had severe
staffing problems in the not-so-distant past.

 > It would be too easy for email-reading software to show me the address
 > of the sender and the name of the system that handed the message to my
 > system, and let me use my own common sense to decide whether it's
 > spoofed.

Sure, but you *have* common sense.  There's good empirical support for
the phrase "more money than brains", you know.  And let's not forget
that a sadly large fraction of the vulnerable are elderly, with no
chance of recovering from a financial loss by earning more.  Finally,
although the high-profile political phishing was done by APTy
entities, who can probably suborn your DNS, that's not true of many of
the lesser, purely profit-oriented or malicious, threats.  But the
social engineering skill needed to craft such phishing messages is
widely distributed, including among garden-variety stalkers-in-the-
grass.

YMMV, but after talking to the people who have the data about the
average bloke, and watching relatively well-educated people fall like
dominos for phishing emails, I've come around to the idea that DMARC
is a very useful tool.  Shame about *my* ox, of course.

To sum up, I too wish that we could go back to the days of "friendly
networks", but DMARC + ARC is not all that bad a way to play the cards
that spammers and phishers deal us.

Regards,

Steve


From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Thu Jun  8 02:48:33 2017
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 15:48:33 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Authenticated Received Chain in Mailman?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1705302228340.9845@pannier.local>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1705302228340.9845@pannier.local>
Message-ID: <22840.62273.951297.484393@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

[My apologies, I drafted this a couple days ago, but never finished
it.]

Brett Delmage writes:

 > Will Mailman 2 or 3 be incorporating Authenticated Received Chain (ARC) 
 > http://arc-spec.org/ ?

We will be doing so in Mailman 3, probably by mid-July for the Gitlab
trunk, and planned for release in Mailman 3.2.

However, configuring ARC in Mailman is a not-great idea if you can
avoid it.  instead, use an ARC-enabled MTA on your boundary MX.  There
is no need based on the protocol itself to do this in Mailman; we're
providing the feature only for experimentation and because it seems
likely many virtual hosting services will take a while to update their
MTAs.  (Of course, they're even more likely to take a while to update
from Mailman 2.1 to Mailman 3.)

In detail:

(1) Mailman cannot do ARC by itself.  It requires help from the DNS
    for the distribution of the public key needed to verify the
    signatures.  So you already need somebody with sensitive access to
    sensitive hosts, you can't delegate to Mailman list/site admins.

(2) In many configurations, the private signing key will be the key
    used for DKIM.  You don't want anybody but root to have access to
    that.

(3) The ARC host should be a boundary host (ie, the first host in your
    administrative domain to receive the post on the way in, and the
    last host to touch it on the way out).  In many configurations,
    the Mailman host will not be a boundary host.  This is especially
    likely in the current state of Mailman 3, as there are strong
    reasons to put all of the services (Mailman itself, Postorius, and
    HyperKitty) on the same host.  On the other hand, because the
    Mailman component communicates with the MTA by LMTP and submission
    or SMTP, there's no need for Mailman to be on the MTA host.  This
    allows isolation of the MTA on a more secure host (recommended).

(4) Mailman cannot verify SPF because it does not have access to the
    SMTP connection.  Few important hosts are dependent on SPF (almost
    everybody with SPF also has DKIM configured), but this is a
    weakness of doing it in Mailman.

If you're running your own host and can configure your own DNS, you
can use the Mailman version, but I do have to recommend an MTA-based
implementation of ARC over ours.

In the next few days I'll follow up with Sendmail, Postfix, and Exim
to see what they're planning for ARC.  (We don't officially support
Qmail, but if there are Qmail fans out there, feel free to check and
let me know!)  I do know that the ARC developers are planning milters
(which would take care of Sendmail and Postfix).

Hope this helps,

Steve

-- 
Associate Professor              Division of Policy and Planning Science
http://turnbull/sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/     Faculty of Systems and Information
Email: turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp                   University of Tsukuba
Tel: 029-853-5175                 Tennodai 1-1-1, Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN

From henry at Aegis00.com  Thu Jun  8 19:40:27 2017
From: henry at Aegis00.com (Henry Yen)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 19:40:27 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Authenticated Received Chain in Mailman?
In-Reply-To: <22840.62732.9399.783328@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1705302228340.9845@pannier.local>
 <CAMSGcLBJL6Y6k9oD+sXQ9A0gNVVbO+-FyZYmeS5ceZV-44v22A@mail.gmail.com>
 <22840.62732.9399.783328@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20170608234027.GU8533@nntp.AegisInfoSys.com>

On Thu, Jun 08, 2017 at 03:56:12AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> If Yahoo! and
> AOL come on board in a timely fashion, ARC will help a lot.  My
> expectation is that Yahoo! will be there, although their financial
> situation exudes the stench of reorganization.  AOL is more dubious.
> Good intentions from their IETF delegates, but they've had severe
> staffing problems in the not-so-distant past.

Do you think your analysis will change now that AOL and Yahoo! are
now both part of Verizon?

-- 
Henry Yen                                       Aegis Information Systems, Inc.
Senior Systems Programmer                       Hicksville, New York

From johnl at taugh.com  Thu Jun  8 21:54:44 2017
From: johnl at taugh.com (John Levine)
Date: 9 Jun 2017 01:54:44 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Authenticated Received Chain in Mailman?
In-Reply-To: <20170608234027.GU8533@nntp.AegisInfoSys.com>
Message-ID: <20170609015444.7046.qmail@ary.lan>

In article <20170608234027.GU8533 at nntp.AegisInfoSys.com> you write:
>Do you think your analysis will change now that AOL and Yahoo! are
>now both part of Verizon?

Probably not.  Verizon's folded their legacy mail system into AOL's.
Maybe they'll merge the AOL and Yahoo mail systems, but I would be
surprised since they're technically quite different and their users
expect different features.

R's,
John

From sherwindu at att.net  Fri Jun  9 14:43:40 2017
From: sherwindu at att.net (sherwin)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 13:43:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with Public Forums on Ibiblio
Message-ID: <deb72d50-e2e0-cb76-9d42-63e7a401d322@att.net>

Hi,

For the past few days, I have been unable to get Ibiblio to respond to any

of the postings on your public Ibiblio forum.  Is there some kind of 
technical

problem and if so, when can I expect things to come back up?

                    Sherwin Dubren

                    Forum Administrator for Midfex


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jun  9 15:18:33 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 12:18:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with Public Forums on Ibiblio
In-Reply-To: <deb72d50-e2e0-cb76-9d42-63e7a401d322@att.net>
References: <deb72d50-e2e0-cb76-9d42-63e7a401d322@att.net>
Message-ID: <e5bb9847-b681-fb2d-b7af-4a2f52aa687a@msapiro.net>

On 6/9/17 11:43 AM, sherwin wrote:
> 
> For the past few days, I have been unable to get Ibiblio to respond to any
> 
> of the postings on your public Ibiblio forum.  Is there some kind of
> technical
> 
> problem and if so, when can I expect things to come back up?


Mailman is open source software used by thousands of sites about which
we have no information. Anyone can install and use our software without
our even knowing who they are.

If there are problems with Mailman at ibiblio.org, you will have to
contact ibiblio.org about them. This is not "our" forum. It is operated
by an organization that happens to use our software, but we have no
control over it. No one here can help you.

To find contact information, try <https://www.ibiblio.org/help/> and
<https://whois.icann.org/en/lookup?name=ibiblio.org>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Wed Jun 14 01:22:10 2017
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 14:22:10 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Authenticated Received Chain in Mailman?
In-Reply-To: <20170608234027.GU8533@nntp.AegisInfoSys.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1705302228340.9845@pannier.local>
 <CAMSGcLBJL6Y6k9oD+sXQ9A0gNVVbO+-FyZYmeS5ceZV-44v22A@mail.gmail.com>
 <22840.62732.9399.783328@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20170608234027.GU8533@nntp.AegisInfoSys.com>
Message-ID: <22848.51202.841898.68670@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Henry Yen writes:

 > Do you think your analysis will change now that AOL and Yahoo! are
 > now both part of Verizon?

I really don't know.  It depends on whether Verizon management is
willing to leave well enough alone.  Email abuse is a very hard
problem, so if they try to make big changes, they're likely to cause
problems.  But I suspect they'll be happy enough with their new market
power for a while, and email is not a cash cow for anybody but maybe
Google any more.

Steve


From tran at isoc.org  Wed Jun 14 06:22:52 2017
From: tran at isoc.org (Dang Tran)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 10:22:52 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List deletion confirmation (2nd attempt)
Message-ID: <3A6B1442-F44C-4643-AB23-4BCA82552216@isoc.org>

Hi ?

 

Is it possible for the list owner(s) to receive notification when a list gets deleted?  thanks

 

Best,

Dang


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 14 11:35:58 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 08:35:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List deletion confirmation (2nd attempt)
In-Reply-To: <3A6B1442-F44C-4643-AB23-4BCA82552216@isoc.org>
References: <3A6B1442-F44C-4643-AB23-4BCA82552216@isoc.org>
Message-ID: <23979d75-a6c8-9c91-f68a-778db2e9787b@msapiro.net>

On 06/14/2017 03:22 AM, Dang Tran wrote:
> 
> Is it possible for the list owner(s) to receive notification when a list gets deleted?  thanks


What does (2nd attempt) mean? I don't think I ever saw a first attempt.

Anyway, it depends on what you mean by "possible". The person doing the
removing (if not the owner) could always notify the owner.

You could also modify Mailman's bin/rmlist and possibly
Mailman/Cgi/rmlist.py to notify the owner(s) upon removal.

But if you mean is there some setting or option to make this happen
automatically, the answer is no.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz  Wed Jun 14 16:36:53 2017
From: Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz (Steven Jones)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 20:36:53 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Purging old archives over 7 years old
Message-ID: <SY3PR01MB21248562F6FE4FB21016EB06D4C30@SY3PR01MB2124.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>

Hi,


I have a 12year old mailman server which is absorbing 650gb of expensive disk space. Is there any feature that would go through each list's archives and delete emails over say 7 years old?   (or maybe even only 3 as we do a yearly backup going back a decade).



regards

Steven

From jaybird at bluegrasspals.com  Thu Jun 15 05:54:09 2017
From: jaybird at bluegrasspals.com (Jayson Smith)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 05:54:09 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can a list owner address be allowed to post to
 their own list?
Message-ID: <fd11538d-1387-67a4-bb24-4c23ffed2639@bluegrasspals.com>

Hi,


I'm in the design stages of creating a script for my own use. This 
script will send a predetermined Email to a predetermined mailing list. 
I want it to be set up so anyone receiving this message can just hit 
Reply and reach the list owner address, listname-owner at domain. Is there 
any problem with subscribing that address to the list in question, as 
long as it's set to Nomail? Or is there an easy way to tell a list to 
accept all mail from a certain address, even though it's not subscribed 
to the list?


Thanks,


Jayson



From Frank.Elsner at TU-Berlin.DE  Thu Jun 15 07:36:47 2017
From: Frank.Elsner at TU-Berlin.DE (Frank Elsner)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 13:36:47 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trouble with "Reply-to:"
Message-ID: <20170615133647.107c36d409be9660dddc5b03@TU-Berlin.DE>


Hi, 

running mailman-2.1.12-26.el6.x86_64 under Red Hat Enterprise Linux Server release 6.9
we have trouble with the "Reply-To:" header settings.

The list config contains 

first_strip_reply_to = 1
reply_goes_to_list = 2
reply_to_address = 'redacted at mailbox.tu-berlin.de'

but mails going though the list have no "Reply-To:" line in header.

What might be the cause? What overlooked? Where to look?


Kind regards, Frank Elsner

From jhs at berklix.com  Thu Jun 15 09:05:15 2017
From: jhs at berklix.com (Julian H. Stacey)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 15:05:15 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Purging old archives over 7 years old
In-Reply-To: Your message "Wed, 14 Jun 2017 20:36:53 -0000."
 <SY3PR01MB21248562F6FE4FB21016EB06D4C30@SY3PR01MB2124.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <201706151305.v5FD5Fm8092929@fire.js.berklix.net>

Steven Jones wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> I have a 12year old mailman server which is absorbing 650gb of expensive disk space. Is there any feature that would go through each list's archives and delete emails over say 7 years old?   (or maybe even only 3 as we do a yearly backup going back a decade).

I've no idea if mailman has own special tools for that,
standard Unix tools can find tools that use the Unix find command, eg
	echo "Learn find, dialects vary per Unix."
	man find 
	cd /usr/local/mailman/bin 
	echo "Get an idea where to look:"
	find . -type f | sort | xargs grep -l find | more
	find . -type f | sort | xargs grep -l find \
		| grep -v /archives/ \
		| grep -v /lists/ \
		| grep -v /logs/ \
		| grep -v /messages/ \
		| grep -v /templates/ \
		| grep -v /tests/ \
		| more
	echo "Ignore ./cgi-bin/* binaries."
	vi -c/find `find bin/* scripts/* -type f | xargs grep -l find`
	echo "Also consider ./Mailman/*/*.py[c] files"

Or more simply:

cd /usr/local/mailman/archives
find . -type f -name \*.html | more
	./private/pc532/index.html
	./private/pc532/2017q2/000000.html
	./private/pc532/2017q2/date.html
	./private/pc532/2017q2/subject.html
	./private/pc532/2017q2/author.html
	./private/pc532/2017q2/thread.html
	./private/pc532/2017q2/000001.html
	./private/pc532/2017q2/000002.html

so eg
	rm -rf ./private/pc532/2007*

find . -type f -name \*.html | xargs ls -l > ~/tmp/dates_to_browse
find . -type f -name \[0-9\]\*.html
find . -type d -name 2012q\* | more
find . -type d -name 2012q\* | xargs rm -rf

Find is very powerful.  Read 
	man find
before you use find,
use 
	more
before you use
	rm
Do a backup before anything. 

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer
 Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable.
 http://berklix.eu/brexit/#stolen_votes  Starve a troll: Ignore Trump's tweets.

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun 15 12:27:58 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 09:27:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trouble with "Reply-to:"
In-Reply-To: <20170615133647.107c36d409be9660dddc5b03@TU-Berlin.DE>
References: <20170615133647.107c36d409be9660dddc5b03@TU-Berlin.DE>
Message-ID: <7f7105ed-4b3a-1464-984b-82ba5a306f3c@msapiro.net>

On 06/15/2017 04:36 AM, Frank Elsner wrote:
> 
> running mailman-2.1.12-26.el6.x86_64 under Red Hat Enterprise Linux Server release 6.9
> we have trouble with the "Reply-To:" header settings.
> 
> The list config contains 
> 
> first_strip_reply_to = 1
> reply_goes_to_list = 2
> reply_to_address = 'redacted at mailbox.tu-berlin.de'
> 
> but mails going though the list have no "Reply-To:" line in header.


Please see <https://wiki.list.org/x/12812344>. Then contact RedHat about
what appears to be a bug in their mailman-2.1.12-26.el6.x86_64 package.


> What might be the cause? What overlooked? Where to look?


I suppose it's possible that Mailman is adding the Reply-To: and the
outgoing MTA is removing it, but in any of our Mailman 2.1 distributions
since 2.1.1 the above settings will result in

Reply-To: redacted at mailbox.tu-berlin.de

being added to the outgoing message.

You could look at your Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py in the section
that begins with the comment

    # Reply-To: munging. ...

to see it it looks correct. In particular, this

        # List admin wants an explicit Reply-To: added
        if mlist.reply_goes_to_list == 2:
            add(parseaddr(mlist.reply_to_address))

is what puts reply_to_address in the Reply-To: header in the outgoing
message.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dawn.vincej at nasa.gov  Thu Jun 15 10:53:20 2017
From: dawn.vincej at nasa.gov (Vincej, Dawn (GRC-VE00)[DB Consulting Group, Inc.])
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 14:53:20 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Purging old archives over 7 years old
In-Reply-To: <SY3PR01MB21248562F6FE4FB21016EB06D4C30@SY3PR01MB2124.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
References: <SY3PR01MB21248562F6FE4FB21016EB06D4C30@SY3PR01MB2124.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <190B1233-CFD6-4CC9-8B08-3F274226EC60@nasa.gov>

We use a pruning script to remove older messages from archives located here:

https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/prune_arch



Dawn




On Jun 14, 2017, at 4:36 PM, Steven Jones <Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz<mailto:Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz>> wrote:

Hi,


I have a 12year old mailman server which is absorbing 650gb of expensive disk space. Is there any feature that would go through each list's archives and delete emails over say 7 years old?   (or maybe even only 3 as we do a yearly backup going back a decade).



regards

Steven
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org<mailto:Mailman-Users at python.org>
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/dawn.vincej%40nasa.gov


From mark at mailmanlists.net  Thu Jun 15 17:51:39 2017
From: mark at mailmanlists.net (Mark Dale)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 07:51:39 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Purging old archives over 7 years old
In-Reply-To: <201706151305.v5FD5Fm8092929@fire.js.berklix.net>
References: <201706151305.v5FD5Fm8092929@fire.js.berklix.net>
Message-ID: <da8c4d5e-ae96-6db3-40c2-a0ebb0b4a6ab@mailmanlists.net>

Hi,

We've found this to be useful.

"Using Archivemail to pruning Mailman archives"

https://playingwithsid.blogspot.se/2014/03/using-archivemail-to-pruning-mailman.html


Best,
Mark

On 15/06/17 23:05, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> Steven Jones wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> I have a 12year old mailman server which is absorbing 650gb of expensive disk space. Is there any feature that would go through each list's archives and delete emails over say 7 years old?   (or maybe even only 3 as we do a yearly backup going back a decade).
> 
> I've no idea if mailman has own special tools for that,
> standard Unix tools can find tools that use the Unix find command, eg
> 	echo "Learn find, dialects vary per Unix."
> 	man find 
> 	cd /usr/local/mailman/bin 
> 	echo "Get an idea where to look:"
> 	find . -type f | sort | xargs grep -l find | more
> 	find . -type f | sort | xargs grep -l find \
> 		| grep -v /archives/ \
> 		| grep -v /lists/ \
> 		| grep -v /logs/ \
> 		| grep -v /messages/ \
> 		| grep -v /templates/ \
> 		| grep -v /tests/ \
> 		| more
> 	echo "Ignore ./cgi-bin/* binaries."
> 	vi -c/find `find bin/* scripts/* -type f | xargs grep -l find`
> 	echo "Also consider ./Mailman/*/*.py[c] files"
> 
> Or more simply:
> 
> cd /usr/local/mailman/archives
> find . -type f -name \*.html | more
> 	./private/pc532/index.html
> 	./private/pc532/2017q2/000000.html
> 	./private/pc532/2017q2/date.html
> 	./private/pc532/2017q2/subject.html
> 	./private/pc532/2017q2/author.html
> 	./private/pc532/2017q2/thread.html
> 	./private/pc532/2017q2/000001.html
> 	./private/pc532/2017q2/000002.html
> 
> so eg
> 	rm -rf ./private/pc532/2007*
> 
> find . -type f -name \*.html | xargs ls -l > ~/tmp/dates_to_browse
> find . -type f -name \[0-9\]\*.html
> find . -type d -name 2012q\* | more
> find . -type d -name 2012q\* | xargs rm -rf
> 
> Find is very powerful.  Read 
> 	man find
> before you use find,
> use 
> 	more
> before you use
> 	rm
> Do a backup before anything. 
> 
> Cheers,
> Julian
> 

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun 15 18:54:14 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 15:54:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can a list owner address be allowed to post to
 their own list?
In-Reply-To: <fd11538d-1387-67a4-bb24-4c23ffed2639@bluegrasspals.com>
References: <fd11538d-1387-67a4-bb24-4c23ffed2639@bluegrasspals.com>
Message-ID: <11ae98da-e334-495c-5060-9a6bc47785fa@msapiro.net>

On 06/15/2017 02:54 AM, Jayson Smith wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> I'm in the design stages of creating a script for my own use. This
> script will send a predetermined Email to a predetermined mailing list.
> I want it to be set up so anyone receiving this message can just hit
> Reply and reach the list owner address, listname-owner at domain.


On the admin General Options page set reply_goes_to_list to Explicit
address and reply_to_address to listname-owner at domain. You may or may
not want to also set first_strip_reply_to to Yes to avoid replying to
the original poster's address.

I may not understand your desire. The above will cause 'reply' to any
post to go to listname-owner at domain. If you only want replies to this
specific script-generated post to go to listname-owner at domain, you have
other choices.


> Is there
> any problem with subscribing that address to the list in question, as
> long as it's set to Nomail?


No, there is no problem and you don't have to set it to nomail unless
you don't want it to receive list posts. In other words, it won't cause
any issue other than receiving possibly unwanted list posts if it is not
set to nomail.


> Or is there an easy way to tell a list to
> accept all mail from a certain address, even though it's not subscribed
> to the list?


Yes. Add the address to Privacy options ... -> Sender filters ->
accept_these_nonmembers.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From heller at deepsoft.com  Thu Jun 15 20:56:10 2017
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 20:56:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trouble with "Reply-to:"
In-Reply-To: <7f7105ed-4b3a-1464-984b-82ba5a306f3c@msapiro.net>
References: <20170615133647.107c36d409be9660dddc5b03@TU-Berlin.DE> 
 <7f7105ed-4b3a-1464-984b-82ba5a306f3c@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20170616005610.BD1BE732AA5@sharky3.deepsoft.com>

At Thu, 15 Jun 2017 09:27:58 -0700 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> 
> On 06/15/2017 04:36 AM, Frank Elsner wrote:
> > 
> > running mailman-2.1.12-26.el6.x86_64 under Red Hat Enterprise Linux Server release 6.9
> > we have trouble with the "Reply-To:" header settings.
> > 
> > The list config contains 
> > 
> > first_strip_reply_to = 1
> > reply_goes_to_list = 2
> > reply_to_address = 'redacted at mailbox.tu-berlin.de'
> > 
> > but mails going though the list have no "Reply-To:" line in header.
> 
> 
> Please see <https://wiki.list.org/x/12812344>. Then contact RedHat about
> what appears to be a bug in their mailman-2.1.12-26.el6.x86_64 package.

You could try upgrading to mailman-2.1.16 (an el5 SRPM is available at 
ftp://ftp.deepsoft.com/pub/deepwoods-repo/el5/SRPMS/mailman-2.1.16-2_DWS.el5.src.rpm 
and I am sure it builds under EL6, since I have done it).

> 
> 
> > What might be the cause? What overlooked? Where to look?
> 
> 
> I suppose it's possible that Mailman is adding the Reply-To: and the
> outgoing MTA is removing it, but in any of our Mailman 2.1 distributions
> since 2.1.1 the above settings will result in
> 
> Reply-To: redacted at mailbox.tu-berlin.de
> 
> being added to the outgoing message.
> 
> You could look at your Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py in the section
> that begins with the comment
> 
>     # Reply-To: munging. ...
> 
> to see it it looks correct. In particular, this
> 
>         # List admin wants an explicit Reply-To: added
>         if mlist.reply_goes_to_list == 2:
>             add(parseaddr(mlist.reply_to_address))
> 
> is what puts reply_to_address in the Reply-To: header in the outgoing
> message.
> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller at deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                                                                                   

From Frank.Elsner at TU-Berlin.DE  Fri Jun 16 02:47:41 2017
From: Frank.Elsner at TU-Berlin.DE (Frank Elsner)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 08:47:41 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trouble with "Reply-to:"
In-Reply-To: <20170616005610.BD1BE732AA5@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
References: <20170615133647.107c36d409be9660dddc5b03@TU-Berlin.DE>
 <7f7105ed-4b3a-1464-984b-82ba5a306f3c@msapiro.net>
 <20170616005610.BD1BE732AA5@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20170616084741.583759b458e58c8b26174f4a@TU-Berlin.DE>

On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 20:56:10 -0400 (EDT) Robert Heller wrote:

  [ ... ]

The outgoing MTA has no special handling for "Reply-To:" and I've looked at the
spool file, it has no "Reply-To:" :-(

> > You could look at your Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py in the section
> > that begins with the comment
> > 
> >     # Reply-To: munging. ...
> > 
> > to see it it looks correct. In particular, this
> > 
> >         # List admin wants an explicit Reply-To: added
> >         if mlist.reply_goes_to_list == 2:
> >             add(parseaddr(mlist.reply_to_address))
> > 
> > is what puts reply_to_address in the Reply-To: header in the outgoing
> > message.

I'll do this, definitly.


Kind regards, Frank Elsner

From tlhackque at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 17 17:14:29 2017
From: tlhackque at yahoo.com (tlhackque)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 17:14:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 confusion
Message-ID: <e8654cf9-d974-0994-8e79-ac2e7b1e1878@yahoo.com>

I took another look at installing Mailman 3, and ended up lost and
confused.  I'm an experienced software person - but my Python knowledge
is minimal.

Fedora 25, python 3.5.3, pretty much out of the box.

Mailman version: 3.1.0 (The other bits and pieces are current - 1.1)

I tried to follow the documentation on
http://docs.list.org/en/latest/prodsetup.html,

http://mailman-3-installation.readthedocs.io/en/latest/production_install.html
claims that the backend requires Python 3.4, but the frontend 2.7.  Not
clear if this is credible, but it's out there...

https://wiki.list.org/Mailman3 points to Mark Sapiro's experience on
https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%203%20installation%20experience  This
starts off with "For both installs I started with mailman-bundler."  
But https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman-bundler says "All of this
documentation is obsolete!  Mailman Bundler is no longer recommended or
supported. "  So...

I have yet to find a step-by-step 'bare OS to running MM3" document. 
I've run MM2.1 lists for years, it wasn't this hard to get started. 
Just install and edit one config file (plus the webserver.).  I don't
want to learn a zillion other technologies just to get started - e.g.

But, I decided to see how far I could get.  I tried this, based on pip
search mailman:

dnf install python3 python3-devel (gets 3.5.3)
pip3 install mailman postorius mailmanclient HyperKitty
mailman-hyperkitty KittyStore

All went well until KittyStore, which (0.9.3 is what pip found) died with:
Collecting storm (from KittyStore)
  Downloading storm-0.20.tar.bz2 (213kB)
    100% |################################| 215kB 318kB/s
    Complete output from command python setup.py egg_info:
    Traceback (most recent call last):
      File "<string>", line 1, in <module>
      File "/tmp/pip-build-wzs03r_4/storm/setup.py", line 5, in <module>
        import ez_setup
      File "/tmp/pip-build-wzs03r_4/storm/ez_setup.py", line 106
        except pkg_resources.VersionConflict, e:
                                            ^
    SyntaxError: invalid syntax

Well, set that aside, and install the rest, which seems to work.

Try again with KittyStore, same failure.  So maybe skip the archive for now.

Try 'mailman info', another syntax error.

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File
"/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/xmlconfig.py", line
272, in endElementNS
    self.context.end()
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
line 345, in end
    self.stack.pop().finish()
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
line 452, in finish
    args = toargs(context, *self.argdata)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
line 794, in toargs
    args[str(name)] = field.fromUnicode(s)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/fields.py",
line 73, in fromUnicode
    value = self.context.resolve(name)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
line 151, in resolve
    mod = __import__(mname, *_import_chickens)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/database/factory.py",
line 22, in <module>
    import alembic.command
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/command.py", line 3, in
<module>
    from .script import ScriptDirectory
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/script/__init__.py",
line 1, in <module>
    from .base import ScriptDirectory, Script  # noqa
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/script/base.py", line
2, in <module>
    from dateutil import tz
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/dateutil/tz.py", line 78
    `self._name`,
    ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax

During handling of the above exception, another exception occurred:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/bin/mailman", line 9, in <module>
    load_entry_point('mailman==3.1.0', 'console_scripts', 'mailman')()
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/bin/mailman.py", line
97, in main
    initialize(config_path)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/core/initialize.py",
line 184, in initialize
    initialize_1(config_path)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/core/initialize.py",
line 101, in initialize_1
    xmlconfig.string(zcml.decode('utf-8'))
  File
"/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/xmlconfig.py", line
513, in string
    processxmlfile(f, context)
  File
"/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/xmlconfig.py", line
295, in processxmlfile
    parser.parse(src)
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.5/xml/sax/expatreader.py", line 110, in parse
    xmlreader.IncrementalParser.parse(self, source)
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.5/xml/sax/xmlreader.py", line 125, in parse
    self.feed(buffer)
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.5/xml/sax/expatreader.py", line 210, in feed
    self._parser.Parse(data, isFinal)
  File "/builddir/build/BUILD/Python-3.5.3/Modules/pyexpat.c", line 468,
in EndElement
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.5/xml/sax/expatreader.py", line 370, in
end_element_ns
    self._cont_handler.endElementNS(pair, None)
  File
"/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/xmlconfig.py", line
281, in endElementNS
    None, sys.exc_info()[2])
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/_compat.py",
line 38, in reraise
    raise value.with_traceback(tb)
  File
"/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/xmlconfig.py", line
272, in endElementNS
    self.context.end()
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
line 345, in end
    self.stack.pop().finish()
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
line 452, in finish
    args = toargs(context, *self.argdata)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
line 794, in toargs
    args[str(name)] = field.fromUnicode(s)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/fields.py",
line 73, in fromUnicode
    value = self.context.resolve(name)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
line 151, in resolve
    mod = __import__(mname, *_import_chickens)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/database/factory.py",
line 22, in <module>
    import alembic.command
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/command.py", line 3, in
<module>
    from .script import ScriptDirectory
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/script/__init__.py",
line 1, in <module>
    from .base import ScriptDirectory, Script  # noqa
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/script/base.py", line
2, in <module>
    from dateutil import tz
zope.configuration.xmlconfig.ZopeXMLConfigurationError: File "<string>",
line 65.2-69.6
    SyntaxError: invalid syntax (tz.py, line 78)

And the same traceback from 'mailman start'

https://pythonhosted.org/mailman/src/mailman/docs/START.html refers to
src/mailman/config/schema.cfg,
/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/config/schema.cfg exists.

http://docs.list.org/en/latest/prodsetup.html refers to "Your Django
Site's settings.py".  I don't have any (other) Django sites.  "locate"
turns up
/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/django/conf/global_settings.py, but it
looks to me as if Mailman needs one (or maybe one/list) Django site.

Bottom line - I'd like to try Mailman 3 for a new project - especially
since I pre-process inbound mail, and will have to speak LMTP.  But I'm
lost trying to follow the scattered docs that try to explain how to
bring it up.

Any pointers, or efforts to record a from-scratch install would be
appreciated.

Also, is version 3 supplying equivalents to the Mailman 2.1 list_lists
and config_list utilities, or do I have to interface to the new REST
API?  (For the latter, I only really need to import and export the
topics definitions....)





From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jun 18 13:58:56 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 10:58:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 confusion
In-Reply-To: <e8654cf9-d974-0994-8e79-ac2e7b1e1878@yahoo.com>
References: <e8654cf9-d974-0994-8e79-ac2e7b1e1878@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f22fa361-011a-471e-0fc6-8831d6c352a4@msapiro.net>

On 06/17/2017 02:14 PM, tlhackque via Mailman-Users wrote:
> I took another look at installing Mailman 3, and ended up lost and
> confused.  I'm an experienced software person - but my Python knowledge
> is minimal.
> 
> Fedora 25, python 3.5.3, pretty much out of the box.
> 
> Mailman version: 3.1.0 (The other bits and pieces are current - 1.1)


A better list for Mailman 3 discussions is mailman-users at mailman3.org
<https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users at mailman3.org/>


> I tried to follow the documentation on
> http://docs.list.org/en/latest/prodsetup.html,
> 
> http://mailman-3-installation.readthedocs.io/en/latest/production_install.html
> claims that the backend requires Python 3.4, but the frontend 2.7.  Not
> clear if this is credible, but it's out there...


At the moment it actually says "The backend requires Python 3.4 or newer
while the frontend requires Python 2.7"

What that means is the Mailman core (mailman) and and the Mailman -
HyperKitty plugin (mailman-hyperkitty) require Python 3 (3.4, 3.5 and
3.6 are supported).

Postorius (postorius), HyperKitty (mailman-hyperkitty) and therefore the
supporting project modules they import, mailmanclient and
django-mailman3 all require Python 2.7.


> https://wiki.list.org/Mailman3 points to Mark Sapiro's experience on
> https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%203%20installation%20experience  This
> starts off with "For both installs I started with mailman-bundler."  
> But https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman-bundler says "All of this
> documentation is obsolete!  Mailman Bundler is no longer recommended or
> supported. "  So...


Yes. I intend to update that. In the mean time I added a note.


> I have yet to find a step-by-step 'bare OS to running MM3" document. 


Have you seen <http://docs.list.org/en/latest/prodsetup.html>


> I've run MM2.1 lists for years, it wasn't this hard to get started. 
> Just install and edit one config file (plus the webserver.).  I don't
> want to learn a zillion other technologies just to get started - e.g.
> 
> But, I decided to see how far I could get.  I tried this, based on pip
> search mailman:
> 
> dnf install python3 python3-devel (gets 3.5.3)
> pip3 install mailman postorius mailmanclient HyperKitty
> mailman-hyperkitty KittyStore
> 
> All went well until KittyStore, which (0.9.3 is what pip found) died with:
> Collecting storm (from KittyStore)
>   Downloading storm-0.20.tar.bz2 (213kB)
>     100% |################################| 215kB 318kB/s
>     Complete output from command python setup.py egg_info:
>     Traceback (most recent call last):
>       File "<string>", line 1, in <module>
>       File "/tmp/pip-build-wzs03r_4/storm/setup.py", line 5, in <module>
>         import ez_setup
>       File "/tmp/pip-build-wzs03r_4/storm/ez_setup.py", line 106
>         except pkg_resources.VersionConflict, e:
>                                             ^
>     SyntaxError: invalid syntax


KittyStore is obsolete and not required.

You also need django-mailman3.


> Well, set that aside, and install the rest, which seems to work.
> 
> Try again with KittyStore, same failure.  So maybe skip the archive for now.
> 
> Try 'mailman info', another syntax error.
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File
> "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/xmlconfig.py", line
> 272, in endElementNS
>     self.context.end()
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
> line 345, in end
>     self.stack.pop().finish()
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
> line 452, in finish
>     args = toargs(context, *self.argdata)
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
> line 794, in toargs
>     args[str(name)] = field.fromUnicode(s)
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/fields.py",
> line 73, in fromUnicode
>     value = self.context.resolve(name)
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
> line 151, in resolve
>     mod = __import__(mname, *_import_chickens)
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/database/factory.py",
> line 22, in <module>
>     import alembic.command
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/command.py", line 3, in
> <module>
>     from .script import ScriptDirectory
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/script/__init__.py",
> line 1, in <module>
>     from .base import ScriptDirectory, Script  # noqa
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/script/base.py", line
> 2, in <module>
>     from dateutil import tz
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/dateutil/tz.py", line 78
>     `self._name`,
>     ^
> SyntaxError: invalid syntax


This looks like you have somehow installed the Python 2.7
python_dateutil package in your python 3 library.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jun 18 14:07:42 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 11:07:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 confusion
In-Reply-To: <f22fa361-011a-471e-0fc6-8831d6c352a4@msapiro.net>
References: <e8654cf9-d974-0994-8e79-ac2e7b1e1878@yahoo.com>
 <f22fa361-011a-471e-0fc6-8831d6c352a4@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <a198303f-34dd-fb59-387e-a8b2cf6f20e8@msapiro.net>

On 06/18/2017 10:58 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 06/17/2017 02:14 PM, tlhackque via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
>> I have yet to find a step-by-step 'bare OS to running MM3" document. 
> 
> 
> Have you seen <http://docs.list.org/en/latest/prodsetup.html>


Yes, obviously you referenced that earlier :(

And yes, it is not (yet) the step by step you're looking for. We are
working on that and also on getting some packaged solutions that are
much easier to install, but we're not there yet.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From Frank.Elsner at TU-Berlin.DE  Mon Jun 19 02:57:29 2017
From: Frank.Elsner at TU-Berlin.DE (Frank Elsner)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 08:57:29 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trouble with "Reply-to:"
In-Reply-To: <20170616084741.583759b458e58c8b26174f4a@TU-Berlin.DE>
References: <20170615133647.107c36d409be9660dddc5b03@TU-Berlin.DE>
 <7f7105ed-4b3a-1464-984b-82ba5a306f3c@msapiro.net>
 <20170616005610.BD1BE732AA5@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
 <20170616084741.583759b458e58c8b26174f4a@TU-Berlin.DE>
Message-ID: <20170619085729.6cfefa0c67f9b7f2a79a3b28@TU-Berlin.DE>

On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 08:47:41 +0200 Frank Elsner wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 20:56:10 -0400 (EDT) Robert Heller wrote:
> 
>   [ ... ]
> 
> The outgoing MTA has no special handling for "Reply-To:" and I've looked at the
> spool file, it has no "Reply-To:" :-(
> 
> > > You could look at your Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py in the section
> > > that begins with the comment
> > > 
> > >     # Reply-To: munging. ...
> > > 
> > > to see it it looks correct. In particular, this
> > > 
> > >         # List admin wants an explicit Reply-To: added
> > >         if mlist.reply_goes_to_list == 2:
> > >             add(parseaddr(mlist.reply_to_address))
> > > 
> > > is what puts reply_to_address in the Reply-To: header in the outgoing
> > > message.
> 
> I'll do this, definitly.

Oh wonder, I found exactly this code snippet :-(


Kind regards, Frank Elsner

From mark at nervous.org  Sun Jun 18 13:03:24 2017
From: mark at nervous.org (Mark Lindsay)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 13:03:24 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 confusion
In-Reply-To: <e8654cf9-d974-0994-8e79-ac2e7b1e1878@yahoo.com>
References: <e8654cf9-d974-0994-8e79-ac2e7b1e1878@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABPy5zw5TarPKFSb5git3aT0DD1Uon76p0eAVdfY_5U7XG0ynw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Tlhackque,

I went through a similar battle with installing Mailman 3 but emerged
victorious in the end. Here are some tips that might help you out.

- There are several places where you can find Mailman 3 docs. It is
confusing. The most complete documentation I found is here:
https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/docs/install.html

- Don't use mailman bundler

- Start with installing just Mailman 3 Core. Core is the part of Mailman 3
that talks to your mail server and controls lists and members of lists.
Leave Postorius and Hyperkitty out of it until you have Core running and
you understand what it is doing. You can work directly with Mailman 3 using
`mailman shell` or the Mailman 3 Core REST API
https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/rest/docs/rest.html

- Mailman 3 Core indeed requires python 3

- Use Python's `virtualenv -p python3` to install Mailman 3 Core. It looks
like a lot of the problems you're having are because of dependency/version
hell. virtualenv will help with this. Successfully dockerizing Mailman 3
Core will help even more! I read over on the Mailman 3 Users list that an
install process using Docker will soon be the canonical way to install
Mailman 3, which is great.

- Use a SQL backend with Mailman 3 Core that allows you to inspect its DB
tables directly. This is so you can see what it is doing behind the scenes
when you interact with it via `mailman shell` or the REST API. The DB
schema is sane and easy to navigate.
https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/docs/database.html

- I really like that I was able to install Mailman 3 Core right in a
non-privileged user's home directory.  My server is just a stock Ubuntu AWS
EC2 instance. My Mailman 3 Core install is in `/home/ubuntu/mailman` with a
configuration file of `/home/ubuntu/mailman/var/etc/mailman.cfg`. I am
running Mailman 3 Core in production from the regular `ubuntu` user's home
directory in a virtualenv. I do not know if this is the recommended way to
do it, but the documentation is especially sparse in this area, and it
seems to work!

As best I can remember (it's been a couple months), here are the steps I
followed to get it up and running:

1. `cd ~`
2. `git clone https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman.git`
3. `cd mailman`
4. `virtualenv -p python3 venv`
5. `source venv/bin/activate`
6. `python setup.py develop`
7. I am pretty sure this setup command will place a configuration file into
`~/mailman/var/etc/mailman.cfg`. Edit this file.
https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/config/docs/config.html
8. `mailman info` can confirm which configuration file is in use
9. `mailman start` will start up Mailman 3 Core. This is what the parent
background process command looks like in `ps -ef`:
`/home/ubuntu/mailman/venv/bin/python /home/ubuntu/mailman/venv/bin/master
-C /home/ubuntu/mailman/var/etc/mailman.cfg`
10. Logs are in ~/mailman/var/logs

It is not a straightforward install process and requires a little detective
work based on your environment and mail server. I had the disadvantage of
never being a Mailman 2 user, so a big chunk of my learning curve was
understanding Mailman terminology and its way of doing things.

I still do not have Postorius or Hyperkitty installed. My use case is a
PHP-based CMS which administers Mailman 3 Core via its REST API. I wrote a
quick and dirty PHP client and it works surprisingly well. Mailman 3 Core
has been solid in production and easy to deal with via the REST API.

Good luck, and you might want to check out the Mailman 3-specific users
list here:
https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users at mailman3.org/

On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 5:14 PM, tlhackque via Mailman-Users <
mailman-users at python.org> wrote:

> I took another look at installing Mailman 3, and ended up lost and
> confused.  I'm an experienced software person - but my Python knowledge
> is minimal.
>
> Fedora 25, python 3.5.3, pretty much out of the box.
>
> Mailman version: 3.1.0 (The other bits and pieces are current - 1.1)
>
> I tried to follow the documentation on
> http://docs.list.org/en/latest/prodsetup.html,
>
> http://mailman-3-installation.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
> production_install.html
> claims that the backend requires Python 3.4, but the frontend 2.7.  Not
> clear if this is credible, but it's out there...
>
> https://wiki.list.org/Mailman3 points to Mark Sapiro's experience on
> https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%203%20installation%20experience  This
> starts off with "For both installs I started with mailman-bundler."
> But https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman-bundler says "All of this
> documentation is obsolete!  Mailman Bundler is no longer recommended or
> supported. "  So...
>
> I have yet to find a step-by-step 'bare OS to running MM3" document.
> I've run MM2.1 lists for years, it wasn't this hard to get started.
> Just install and edit one config file (plus the webserver.).  I don't
> want to learn a zillion other technologies just to get started - e.g.
>
> But, I decided to see how far I could get.  I tried this, based on pip
> search mailman:
>
> dnf install python3 python3-devel (gets 3.5.3)
> pip3 install mailman postorius mailmanclient HyperKitty
> mailman-hyperkitty KittyStore
>
> All went well until KittyStore, which (0.9.3 is what pip found) died with:
> Collecting storm (from KittyStore)
>   Downloading storm-0.20.tar.bz2 (213kB)
>     100% |################################| 215kB 318kB/s
>     Complete output from command python setup.py egg_info:
>     Traceback (most recent call last):
>       File "<string>", line 1, in <module>
>       File "/tmp/pip-build-wzs03r_4/storm/setup.py", line 5, in <module>
>         import ez_setup
>       File "/tmp/pip-build-wzs03r_4/storm/ez_setup.py", line 106
>         except pkg_resources.VersionConflict, e:
>                                             ^
>     SyntaxError: invalid syntax
>
> Well, set that aside, and install the rest, which seems to work.
>
> Try again with KittyStore, same failure.  So maybe skip the archive for
> now.
>
> Try 'mailman info', another syntax error.
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File
> "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/xmlconfig.py", line
> 272, in endElementNS
>     self.context.end()
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
> line 345, in end
>     self.stack.pop().finish()
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
> line 452, in finish
>     args = toargs(context, *self.argdata)
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
> line 794, in toargs
>     args[str(name)] = field.fromUnicode(s)
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/fields.py",
> line 73, in fromUnicode
>     value = self.context.resolve(name)
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
> line 151, in resolve
>     mod = __import__(mname, *_import_chickens)
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/database/factory.py",
> line 22, in <module>
>     import alembic.command
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/command.py", line 3, in
> <module>
>     from .script import ScriptDirectory
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/script/__init__.py",
> line 1, in <module>
>     from .base import ScriptDirectory, Script  # noqa
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/script/base.py", line
> 2, in <module>
>     from dateutil import tz
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/dateutil/tz.py", line 78
>     `self._name`,
>     ^
> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
>
> During handling of the above exception, another exception occurred:
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/bin/mailman", line 9, in <module>
>     load_entry_point('mailman==3.1.0', 'console_scripts', 'mailman')()
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/bin/mailman.py", line
> 97, in main
>     initialize(config_path)
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/core/initialize.py",
> line 184, in initialize
>     initialize_1(config_path)
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/core/initialize.py",
> line 101, in initialize_1
>     xmlconfig.string(zcml.decode('utf-8'))
>   File
> "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/xmlconfig.py", line
> 513, in string
>     processxmlfile(f, context)
>   File
> "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/xmlconfig.py", line
> 295, in processxmlfile
>     parser.parse(src)
>   File "/usr/lib64/python3.5/xml/sax/expatreader.py", line 110, in parse
>     xmlreader.IncrementalParser.parse(self, source)
>   File "/usr/lib64/python3.5/xml/sax/xmlreader.py", line 125, in parse
>     self.feed(buffer)
>   File "/usr/lib64/python3.5/xml/sax/expatreader.py", line 210, in feed
>     self._parser.Parse(data, isFinal)
>   File "/builddir/build/BUILD/Python-3.5.3/Modules/pyexpat.c", line 468,
> in EndElement
>   File "/usr/lib64/python3.5/xml/sax/expatreader.py", line 370, in
> end_element_ns
>     self._cont_handler.endElementNS(pair, None)
>   File
> "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/xmlconfig.py", line
> 281, in endElementNS
>     None, sys.exc_info()[2])
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/_compat.py",
> line 38, in reraise
>     raise value.with_traceback(tb)
>   File
> "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/xmlconfig.py", line
> 272, in endElementNS
>     self.context.end()
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
> line 345, in end
>     self.stack.pop().finish()
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
> line 452, in finish
>     args = toargs(context, *self.argdata)
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
> line 794, in toargs
>     args[str(name)] = field.fromUnicode(s)
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/fields.py",
> line 73, in fromUnicode
>     value = self.context.resolve(name)
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
> line 151, in resolve
>     mod = __import__(mname, *_import_chickens)
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/database/factory.py",
> line 22, in <module>
>     import alembic.command
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/command.py", line 3, in
> <module>
>     from .script import ScriptDirectory
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/script/__init__.py",
> line 1, in <module>
>     from .base import ScriptDirectory, Script  # noqa
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/script/base.py", line
> 2, in <module>
>     from dateutil import tz
> zope.configuration.xmlconfig.ZopeXMLConfigurationError: File "<string>",
> line 65.2-69.6
>     SyntaxError: invalid syntax (tz.py, line 78)
>
> And the same traceback from 'mailman start'
>
> https://pythonhosted.org/mailman/src/mailman/docs/START.html refers to
> src/mailman/config/schema.cfg,
> /usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/config/schema.cfg exists.
>
> http://docs.list.org/en/latest/prodsetup.html refers to "Your Django
> Site's settings.py".  I don't have any (other) Django sites.  "locate"
> turns up
> /usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/django/conf/global_settings.py, but it
> looks to me as if Mailman needs one (or maybe one/list) Django site.
>
> Bottom line - I'd like to try Mailman 3 for a new project - especially
> since I pre-process inbound mail, and will have to speak LMTP.  But I'm
> lost trying to follow the scattered docs that try to explain how to
> bring it up.
>
> Any pointers, or efforts to record a from-scratch install would be
> appreciated.
>
> Also, is version 3 supplying equivalents to the Mailman 2.1 list_lists
> and config_list utilities, or do I have to interface to the new REST
> API?  (For the latter, I only really need to import and export the
> topics definitions....)
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/
> mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/
> mark%40nervous.org
>

From tlhackque at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 18 16:14:17 2017
From: tlhackque at yahoo.com (tlhackque)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 16:14:17 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 confusion
In-Reply-To: <CABPy5zw5TarPKFSb5git3aT0DD1Uon76p0eAVdfY_5U7XG0ynw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8654cf9-d974-0994-8e79-ac2e7b1e1878@yahoo.com>
 <CABPy5zw5TarPKFSb5git3aT0DD1Uon76p0eAVdfY_5U7XG0ynw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55d4e851-ba6e-fce2-444a-a981e027de57@yahoo.com>

On 18-Jun-17 13:03, Mark Lindsay wrote:

Thanks for taking the time to write & share your experience!  I'll see
if I can reproduce your success.

readthedocs is somewhat off-putting since it asserts different Python
version dependencies from the main site.

I did understand that the core requires Python 3.  What isn't clear is
whether the Front end requires Python 2... I do have 2.7.3 installed.

I didn't know about the mailman3-users list; next round will go there.

I've perused the docs, and  decided that I will have to get an instance
running & do some experimentation to make sense of them.  (e.g. the
schemas for the REST API's  json are sketchy - I haven't found how
topics/topic filters are represented - and they're a key item for me. 
And the "dumps" are less helpful to a non-python person
than raw json.)  There's noBut it looks like it should be possible to
replace what I did with the 2.1 cli utilities with not much code - and a
lot of research. 

I can live without the archive for a while, but the main reason for
converting my new project to MM3 is the new UI.

It's not obvious that I can use a virtual environment when a webserver
has to interact - and especially where the host runs SeLinux (extended
access controls.)

I use SQLite elsewhere; I planned to stick with it for this.  It's the
Python default, and the command interface for queries is reasonable. 
(And it has a -- sorry -- Perl API, which is the implementation language
for the main application.)

I do disagree with you on one point - it doesn't take 'a little
detective work' to figure this out.  It takes a LOT of detective work
:-)  I've invested several daze, and still don't have a process running.

But I'll (probably) get there.  Eventually.  Thanks for the tips.


> Hi Tlhackque,
>
> I went through a similar battle with installing Mailman 3 but emerged
> victorious in the end. Here are some tips that might help you out.
>
> - There are several places where you can find Mailman 3 docs. It is
> confusing. The most complete documentation I found is
> here: https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/docs/install.html
>
> - Don't use mailman bundler
>
> - Start with installing just Mailman 3 Core. Core is the part of
> Mailman 3 that talks to your mail server and controls lists and
> members of lists. Leave Postorius and Hyperkitty out of it until you
> have Core running and you understand what it is doing. You can work
> directly with Mailman 3 using `mailman shell` or the Mailman 3 Core
> REST
> API https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/rest/docs/rest.html
>
> - Mailman 3 Core indeed requires python 3
>
> - Use Python's `virtualenv -p python3` to install Mailman 3 Core. It
> looks like a lot of the problems you're having are because of
> dependency/version hell. virtualenv will help with this. Successfully
> dockerizing Mailman 3 Core will help even more! I read over on the
> Mailman 3 Users list that an install process using Docker will soon be
> the canonical way to install Mailman 3, which is great.
>
> - Use a SQL backend with Mailman 3 Core that allows you to inspect its
> DB tables directly. This is so you can see what it is doing behind the
> scenes when you interact with it via `mailman shell` or the REST API.
> The DB schema is sane and easy to
> navigate. https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/docs/database.html
>
> - I really like that I was able to install Mailman 3 Core right in a
> non-privileged user's home directory.  My server is just a stock
> Ubuntu AWS EC2 instance. My Mailman 3 Core install is in
> `/home/ubuntu/mailman` with a configuration file of
> `/home/ubuntu/mailman/var/etc/mailman.cfg`. I am running Mailman 3
> Core in production from the regular `ubuntu` user's home directory in
> a virtualenv. I do not know if this is the recommended way to do it,
> but the documentation is especially sparse in this area, and it seems
> to work!
>
> As best I can remember (it's been a couple months), here are the steps
> I followed to get it up and running:
>
> 1. `cd ~`
> 2. `git clone https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman.git`
> <https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman.git%60>
> 3. `cd mailman`
> 4. `virtualenv -p python3 venv`
> 5. `source venv/bin/activate`
> 6. `python setup.py develop`
> 7. I am pretty sure this setup command will place a configuration file
> into `~/mailman/var/etc/mailman.cfg`. Edit this
> file. https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/config/docs/config.html
> 8. `mailman info` can confirm which configuration file is in use
> 9. `mailman start` will start up Mailman 3 Core. This is what the
> parent background process command looks like in `ps -ef`:
> `/home/ubuntu/mailman/venv/bin/python
> /home/ubuntu/mailman/venv/bin/master -C
> /home/ubuntu/mailman/var/etc/mailman.cfg`
> 10. Logs are in ~/mailman/var/logs
>
> It is not a straightforward install process and requires a little
> detective work based on your environment and mail server. I had the
> disadvantage of never being a Mailman 2 user, so a big chunk of my
> learning curve was understanding Mailman terminology and its way of
> doing things.
>
> I still do not have Postorius or Hyperkitty installed. My use case is
> a PHP-based CMS which administers Mailman 3 Core via its REST API. I
> wrote a quick and dirty PHP client and it works surprisingly well.
> Mailman 3 Core has been solid in production and easy to deal with via
> the REST API.
>
> Good luck, and you might want to check out the Mailman 3-specific
> users list
> here: https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users at mailman3.org/
>
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 5:14 PM, tlhackque via Mailman-Users
> <mailman-users at python.org <mailto:mailman-users at python.org>> wrote:
>
>     I took another look at installing Mailman 3, and ended up lost and
>     confused.  I'm an experienced software person - but my Python
>     knowledge
>     is minimal.
>
>     Fedora 25, python 3.5.3, pretty much out of the box.
>
>     Mailman version: 3.1.0 (The other bits and pieces are current - 1.1)
>
>     I tried to follow the documentation on
>     http://docs.list.org/en/latest/prodsetup.html
>     <http://docs.list.org/en/latest/prodsetup.html>,
>
>     http://mailman-3-installation.readthedocs.io/en/latest/production_install.html
>     <http://mailman-3-installation.readthedocs.io/en/latest/production_install.html>
>     claims that the backend requires Python 3.4, but the frontend
>     2.7.  Not
>     clear if this is credible, but it's out there...
>
>     https://wiki.list.org/Mailman3 points to Mark Sapiro's experience on
>     https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%203%20installation%20experience
>     <https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%203%20installation%20experience> 
>     This
>     starts off with "For both installs I started with mailman-bundler."
>     But https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman-bundler
>     <https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman-bundler> says "All of this
>     documentation is obsolete!  Mailman Bundler is no longer
>     recommended or
>     supported. "  So...
>
>     I have yet to find a step-by-step 'bare OS to running MM3" document.
>     I've run MM2.1 lists for years, it wasn't this hard to get started.
>     Just install and edit one config file (plus the webserver.).  I don't
>     want to learn a zillion other technologies just to get started - e.g.
>
>     But, I decided to see how far I could get.  I tried this, based on pip
>     search mailman:
>
>     dnf install python3 python3-devel (gets 3.5.3)
>     pip3 install mailman postorius mailmanclient HyperKitty
>     mailman-hyperkitty KittyStore
>
>     All went well until KittyStore, which (0.9.3 is what pip found)
>     died with:
>     Collecting storm (from KittyStore)
>       Downloading storm-0.20.tar.bz2 (213kB)
>         100% |################################| 215kB 318kB/s
>         Complete output from command python setup.py egg_info:
>         Traceback (most recent call last):
>           File "<string>", line 1, in <module>
>           File "/tmp/pip-build-wzs03r_4/storm/setup.py", line 5, in
>     <module>
>             import ez_setup
>           File "/tmp/pip-build-wzs03r_4/storm/ez_setup.py", line 106
>             except pkg_resources.VersionConflict, e:
>                                                 ^
>         SyntaxError: invalid syntax
>
>     Well, set that aside, and install the rest, which seems to work.
>
>     Try again with KittyStore, same failure.  So maybe skip the
>     archive for now.
>
>     Try 'mailman info', another syntax error.
>
>     Traceback (most recent call last):
>       File
>     "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/xmlconfig.py",
>     line
>     272, in endElementNS
>         self.context.end()
>       File
>     "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
>     line 345, in end
>         self.stack.pop().finish()
>       File
>     "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
>     line 452, in finish
>         args = toargs(context, *self.argdata)
>       File
>     "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
>     line 794, in toargs
>         args[str(name)] = field.fromUnicode(s)
>       File
>     "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/fields.py",
>     line 73, in fromUnicode
>         value = self.context.resolve(name)
>       File
>     "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
>     line 151, in resolve
>         mod = __import__(mname, *_import_chickens)
>       File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/database/factory.py",
>     line 22, in <module>
>         import alembic.command
>       File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/command.py", line
>     3, in
>     <module>
>         from .script import ScriptDirectory
>       File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/script/__init__.py",
>     line 1, in <module>
>         from .base import ScriptDirectory, Script  # noqa
>       File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/script/base.py", line
>     2, in <module>
>         from dateutil import tz
>       File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/dateutil/tz.py", line 78
>         `self._name`,
>         ^
>     SyntaxError: invalid syntax
>
>     During handling of the above exception, another exception occurred:
>
>     Traceback (most recent call last):
>       File "/usr/bin/mailman", line 9, in <module>
>         load_entry_point('mailman==3.1.0', 'console_scripts', 'mailman')()
>       File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/bin/mailman.py", line
>     97, in main
>         initialize(config_path)
>       File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/core/initialize.py",
>     line 184, in initialize
>         initialize_1(config_path)
>       File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/core/initialize.py",
>     line 101, in initialize_1
>         xmlconfig.string(zcml.decode('utf-8'))
>       File
>     "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/xmlconfig.py",
>     line
>     513, in string
>         processxmlfile(f, context)
>       File
>     "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/xmlconfig.py",
>     line
>     295, in processxmlfile
>         parser.parse(src)
>       File "/usr/lib64/python3.5/xml/sax/expatreader.py", line 110, in
>     parse
>         xmlreader.IncrementalParser.parse(self, source)
>       File "/usr/lib64/python3.5/xml/sax/xmlreader.py", line 125, in parse
>         self.feed(buffer)
>       File "/usr/lib64/python3.5/xml/sax/expatreader.py", line 210, in
>     feed
>         self._parser.Parse(data, isFinal)
>       File "/builddir/build/BUILD/Python-3.5.3/Modules/pyexpat.c",
>     line 468,
>     in EndElement
>       File "/usr/lib64/python3.5/xml/sax/expatreader.py", line 370, in
>     end_element_ns
>         self._cont_handler.endElementNS(pair, None)
>       File
>     "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/xmlconfig.py",
>     line
>     281, in endElementNS
>         None, sys.exc_info()[2])
>       File
>     "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/_compat.py",
>     line 38, in reraise
>         raise value.with_traceback(tb)
>       File
>     "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/xmlconfig.py",
>     line
>     272, in endElementNS
>         self.context.end()
>       File
>     "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
>     line 345, in end
>         self.stack.pop().finish()
>       File
>     "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
>     line 452, in finish
>         args = toargs(context, *self.argdata)
>       File
>     "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
>     line 794, in toargs
>         args[str(name)] = field.fromUnicode(s)
>       File
>     "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/fields.py",
>     line 73, in fromUnicode
>         value = self.context.resolve(name)
>       File
>     "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/zope/configuration/config.py",
>     line 151, in resolve
>         mod = __import__(mname, *_import_chickens)
>       File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/database/factory.py",
>     line 22, in <module>
>         import alembic.command
>       File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/command.py", line
>     3, in
>     <module>
>         from .script import ScriptDirectory
>       File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/script/__init__.py",
>     line 1, in <module>
>         from .base import ScriptDirectory, Script  # noqa
>       File "/usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/alembic/script/base.py", line
>     2, in <module>
>         from dateutil import tz
>     zope.configuration.xmlconfig.ZopeXMLConfigurationError: File
>     "<string>",
>     line 65.2-69.6
>         SyntaxError: invalid syntax (tz.py, line 78)
>
>     And the same traceback from 'mailman start'
>
>     https://pythonhosted.org/mailman/src/mailman/docs/START.html
>     <https://pythonhosted.org/mailman/src/mailman/docs/START.html>
>     refers to
>     src/mailman/config/schema.cfg,
>     /usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/mailman/config/schema.cfg exists.
>
>     http://docs.list.org/en/latest/prodsetup.html
>     <http://docs.list.org/en/latest/prodsetup.html> refers to "Your Django
>     Site's settings.py".  I don't have any (other) Django sites.  "locate"
>     turns up
>     /usr/lib/python3.5/site-packages/django/conf/global_settings.py,
>     but it
>     looks to me as if Mailman needs one (or maybe one/list) Django site.
>
>     Bottom line - I'd like to try Mailman 3 for a new project - especially
>     since I pre-process inbound mail, and will have to speak LMTP. 
>     But I'm
>     lost trying to follow the scattered docs that try to explain how to
>     bring it up.
>
>     Any pointers, or efforts to record a from-scratch install would be
>     appreciated.
>
>     Also, is version 3 supplying equivalents to the Mailman 2.1 list_lists
>     and config_list utilities, or do I have to interface to the new REST
>     API?  (For the latter, I only really need to import and export the
>     topics definitions....)
>
>
>
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------
>     Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
>     <mailto:Mailman-Users at python.org>
>     https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>     <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users>
>     Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>     Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>     Searchable Archives:
>     http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>     <http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/>
>     Unsubscribe:
>     https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/mark%40nervous.org
>     <https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/mark%40nervous.org>
>
>

-- 
This communication may not represent my employer's views,
if any, on the matters discussed. 


From rosenbaumlm at ornl.gov  Mon Jun 19 11:01:55 2017
From: rosenbaumlm at ornl.gov (Rosenbaum, Larry M.)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 15:01:55 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 confusion
In-Reply-To: <f22fa361-011a-471e-0fc6-8831d6c352a4@msapiro.net>
References: <e8654cf9-d974-0994-8e79-ac2e7b1e1878@yahoo.com>
 <f22fa361-011a-471e-0fc6-8831d6c352a4@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <d3c84d9301194779b366fb86b147ef34@EXCHCS32.ornl.gov>

> From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
> bounces+rosenbaumlm=ornl.gov at python.org] On Behalf Of Mark Sapiro
> 
> At the moment it actually says "The backend requires Python 3.4 or newer
> while the frontend requires Python 2.7"
> 
> What that means is the Mailman core (mailman) and and the Mailman -
> HyperKitty plugin (mailman-hyperkitty) require Python 3 (3.4, 3.5 and
> 3.6 are supported).
> 
> Postorius (postorius), HyperKitty (mailman-hyperkitty) and therefore the
> supporting project modules they import, mailmanclient and
> django-mailman3 all require Python 2.7.

Does that mean _at_least_ 2.7, or does it mean I need two different versions of Python on the same box, or does it mean I need two boxes?

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 19 21:53:37 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 18:53:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 confusion
In-Reply-To: <d3c84d9301194779b366fb86b147ef34@EXCHCS32.ornl.gov>
References: <e8654cf9-d974-0994-8e79-ac2e7b1e1878@yahoo.com>
 <f22fa361-011a-471e-0fc6-8831d6c352a4@msapiro.net>
 <d3c84d9301194779b366fb86b147ef34@EXCHCS32.ornl.gov>
Message-ID: <f3d2c6f1-8e60-b78f-3505-98443596ed1f@msapiro.net>

On 06/19/2017 08:01 AM, Rosenbaum, Larry M. wrote:
>> From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
>> bounces+rosenbaumlm=ornl.gov at python.org] On Behalf Of Mark Sapiro
>>
>> At the moment it actually says "The backend requires Python 3.4 or newer
>> while the frontend requires Python 2.7"
>>
>> What that means is the Mailman core (mailman) and and the Mailman -
>> HyperKitty plugin (mailman-hyperkitty) require Python 3 (3.4, 3.5 and
>> 3.6 are supported).
>>
>> Postorius (postorius), HyperKitty (mailman-hyperkitty) and therefore the
>> supporting project modules they import, mailmanclient and
>> django-mailman3 all require Python 2.7.
> 
> Does that mean _at_least_ 2.7, or does it mean I need two different versions of Python on the same box, or does it mean I need two boxes?


It means Postorius (postorius), HyperKitty (mailman-hyperkitty) and
therefore the supporting project modules they import, mailmanclient and
django-mailman3 all require Python 2.7. Not 'at least' Python 2.7, but
some 2.7.x.

Python 2.7 and Python 3 are significantly different. Programs can be
bilingual, but not all of Postorius, HyperKitty and their dependencies
are fully Python 3 compatible yet.

This means you need Python 3.4 or later for Mailman core and Python
2.7.x for Postorius and HyperKitty. These are quite capable of
coexisting on the same box and that is probably what you want, but it is
possible to run Postorius and HyperKitty on a separate box, but there
are potential security issues involved in exposing the core's REST
interface beyond 'localhost'.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jon+mailman at unequivocal.eu  Mon Jun 19 22:30:35 2017
From: jon+mailman at unequivocal.eu (Jon Ribbens)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2017 03:30:35 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 confusion
In-Reply-To: <f3d2c6f1-8e60-b78f-3505-98443596ed1f@msapiro.net>
References: <e8654cf9-d974-0994-8e79-ac2e7b1e1878@yahoo.com>
 <f22fa361-011a-471e-0fc6-8831d6c352a4@msapiro.net>
 <d3c84d9301194779b366fb86b147ef34@EXCHCS32.ornl.gov>
 <f3d2c6f1-8e60-b78f-3505-98443596ed1f@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20170620023035.7zb5knm6axcl6iih@unequivocal.eu>

On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 06:53:37PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> It means Postorius (postorius), HyperKitty (mailman-hyperkitty) and
> therefore the supporting project modules they import, mailmanclient and
> django-mailman3 all require Python 2.7. Not 'at least' Python 2.7, but
> some 2.7.x.
> 
> Python 2.7 and Python 3 are significantly different. Programs can be
> bilingual, but not all of Postorius, HyperKitty and their dependencies
> are fully Python 3 compatible yet.
> 
> This means you need Python 3.4 or later for Mailman core and Python
> 2.7.x for Postorius and HyperKitty. These are quite capable of
> coexisting on the same box and that is probably what you want, but it is
> possible to run Postorius and HyperKitty on a separate box, but there
> are potential security issues involved in exposing the core's REST
> interface beyond 'localhost'.

This is all true, but personally I can't see any likelihood of
any noticeable uptake of Mailman 3 until it will all run on one
version of Python.

Having said that, if there's any specific help needed to achieve that
then I'm potentially willing to put some work in.

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 19 22:41:47 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 19:41:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trouble with "Reply-to:"
In-Reply-To: <20170619085729.6cfefa0c67f9b7f2a79a3b28@TU-Berlin.DE>
References: <20170615133647.107c36d409be9660dddc5b03@TU-Berlin.DE>
 <7f7105ed-4b3a-1464-984b-82ba5a306f3c@msapiro.net>
 <20170616005610.BD1BE732AA5@sharky3.deepsoft.com>
 <20170616084741.583759b458e58c8b26174f4a@TU-Berlin.DE>
 <20170619085729.6cfefa0c67f9b7f2a79a3b28@TU-Berlin.DE>
Message-ID: <c419e5b0-13ba-05e2-61d3-c8e348208049@msapiro.net>

On 06/18/2017 11:57 PM, Frank Elsner wrote:
> 
> Oh wonder, I found exactly this code snippet :-(


First, are you sure that reply_goes_to_list is set to the integer 2 and
not the string '2'. If it is a string, that would explain it.

And are you setting/inspecting it from the web UI, with bin/config_list,
with bin/withlist or some other way?

Have you tried different settings, perhaps on a test list, th see if any
reply to munging works?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 19 22:57:51 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 19:57:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 confusion
In-Reply-To: <20170620023035.7zb5knm6axcl6iih@unequivocal.eu>
References: <e8654cf9-d974-0994-8e79-ac2e7b1e1878@yahoo.com>
 <f22fa361-011a-471e-0fc6-8831d6c352a4@msapiro.net>
 <d3c84d9301194779b366fb86b147ef34@EXCHCS32.ornl.gov>
 <f3d2c6f1-8e60-b78f-3505-98443596ed1f@msapiro.net>
 <20170620023035.7zb5knm6axcl6iih@unequivocal.eu>
Message-ID: <c95432f2-b1a3-377d-f63a-b83c9f16aab6@msapiro.net>

On 06/19/2017 07:30 PM, Jon Ribbens wrote:
> 
> This is all true, but personally I can't see any likelihood of
> any noticeable uptake of Mailman 3 until it will all run on one
> version of Python.


Personally, I can't understand why you would say that. Can you elaborate
on that? I have no hard data, but I expect that most machines that have
any Python applications at all probably have both Python 2 and Python 3
installed and likely have both Python 2 and Python 3 applications.

Keep in mind that both Postorius and HyperKitty, while quite useful, are
really separate applications from the Mailman core and are not required
to use the core to manage email lists.


> Having said that, if there's any specific help needed to achieve that
> then I'm potentially willing to put some work in.


I'm sure we would welcome your help, but the place to discuss that is
mailman-users at mailman3.org
<https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users at mailman3.org/>
or mailman-developers at python.org
<https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at nervous.org  Tue Jun 20 10:52:49 2017
From: mark at nervous.org (Mark Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2017 10:52:49 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 confusion
In-Reply-To: <d3c84d9301194779b366fb86b147ef34@EXCHCS32.ornl.gov>
References: <e8654cf9-d974-0994-8e79-ac2e7b1e1878@yahoo.com>
 <f22fa361-011a-471e-0fc6-8831d6c352a4@msapiro.net>
 <d3c84d9301194779b366fb86b147ef34@EXCHCS32.ornl.gov>
Message-ID: <CABPy5zxpnsZVqYK6M0-4MGJC35nkmU5mFUjLvRyEoRz+tuYEOA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Larry,

Does that mean _at_least_ 2.7, or does it mean I need two different
> versions of Python on the same box, or does it mean I need two boxes?
>

The `virtualenv` tool will solve this problem for you. From
http://python-guide-pt-br.readthedocs.io/en/latest/dev/virtualenvs/ :


> A Virtual Environment is a tool to keep the dependencies required by
> different projects in separate places, by creating virtual Python
> environments for them. It solves the ?Project X depends on version 1.x but,
> Project Y needs 4.x? dilemma, and keeps your global site-packages directory
> clean and manageable.


It allows you to have application-specific versions of the python
interpreter and python packages on the same machine. The global (server
default) version of python will no longer be relevant.

`virtualenv -p python3` will give you python 3 for Mailman 3 Core.
`virtualenv` will give you python 2 for the other apps.

Mark

From danil at smirnov.la  Wed Jun 21 01:57:00 2017
From: danil at smirnov.la (Danil Smirnov)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 08:57:00 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 confusion
In-Reply-To: <CABPy5zw5TarPKFSb5git3aT0DD1Uon76p0eAVdfY_5U7XG0ynw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8654cf9-d974-0994-8e79-ac2e7b1e1878@yahoo.com>
 <CABPy5zw5TarPKFSb5git3aT0DD1Uon76p0eAVdfY_5U7XG0ynw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMrrXbqkhEnLeVbGYt8RotZmfrWqAhDymGjLGQAYr4ZQcCJGFw@mail.gmail.com>

2017-06-18 20:03 GMT+03:00 Mark Lindsay <mark at nervous.org>:

> I read over on the Mailman 3 Users list that an
> install process using Docker will soon be the canonical way to install
> Mailman 3, which is great.
>

The docker installation is quite usable already, no blocking issues
noticed, see
https://asynchronous.in/docker-mailman/

You can easily set up all Mailman components with single docker-compose.yml
and even have SSL certificates automatically installed by Letsencrypt.

There is no need in manual work fighting versions/dependencies/etc
anymore...

Regards,
Danil Smirnov
https://mailman3.com/

From frank at frank.uvena.de  Tue Jun 20 10:12:43 2017
From: frank at frank.uvena.de (Frank Lanitz)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2017 16:12:43 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.23: Issues with mailmanctl restart
Message-ID: <47cbc2d1d7d2be84991a8806ea90b539@frank.uvena.de>

Hello,

I have seen recently issues with mailmanctl restart: From time to time 
there seems to be some kind of race condition between shutdown and 
startup. Inside qrunner log it looks something like ? but not started.

Jun 18 02:20:21 2017 (30372) OutgoingRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  
Stopping.
Jun 18 02:20:21 2017 (30368) BounceRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  
Stopping.
Jun 18 02:20:21 2017 (30368) BounceRunner qrunner exiting.
Jun 18 02:20:21 2017 (30372) OutgoingRunner qrunner exiting.
Jun 18 02:20:21 2017 (30370) IncomingRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  
Stopping.
Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30370) IncomingRunner qrunner exiting.
Jun 18 02:20:21 2017 (30373) VirginRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  
Stopping.
Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30367) ArchRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  
Stopping.
Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30367) ArchRunner qrunner exiting.
Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30369) CommandRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  
Stopping.
Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30373) VirginRunner qrunner exiting.
Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30369) CommandRunner qrunner exiting.
Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30371) NewsRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  
Stopping.
Jun 18 02:20:24 2017 (30371) NewsRunner qrunner exiting.
Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30374) RetryRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  
Stopping.
Jun 18 02:20:25 2017 (30374) RetryRunner qrunner exiting.

(the restart is getting triggered by some logrotate-magic but this is 
also happening from time to time when executing it directly)

I cannot see any segfault or exception by now and wondering whether only 
me is seeing this kind of issue?

Regards,
Frank

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 21 12:01:10 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:01:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.23: Issues with mailmanctl restart
In-Reply-To: <47cbc2d1d7d2be84991a8806ea90b539@frank.uvena.de>
References: <47cbc2d1d7d2be84991a8806ea90b539@frank.uvena.de>
Message-ID: <be620baa-fbd4-83eb-3d28-19efdd304a76@msapiro.net>

On 06/20/2017 07:12 AM, Frank Lanitz wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I have seen recently issues with mailmanctl restart: From time to time
> there seems to be some kind of race condition between shutdown and
> startup. Inside qrunner log it looks something like ? but not started.
> 
> Jun 18 02:20:21 2017 (30372) OutgoingRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM. 
> Stopping.
> Jun 18 02:20:21 2017 (30368) BounceRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM. 
> Stopping.
> Jun 18 02:20:21 2017 (30368) BounceRunner qrunner exiting.
> Jun 18 02:20:21 2017 (30372) OutgoingRunner qrunner exiting.
> Jun 18 02:20:21 2017 (30370) IncomingRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM. 
> Stopping.
> Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30370) IncomingRunner qrunner exiting.
> Jun 18 02:20:21 2017 (30373) VirginRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM. 
> Stopping.
> Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30367) ArchRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
> Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30367) ArchRunner qrunner exiting.
> Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30369) CommandRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM. 
> Stopping.
> Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30373) VirginRunner qrunner exiting.
> Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30369) CommandRunner qrunner exiting.
> Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30371) NewsRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
> Jun 18 02:20:24 2017 (30371) NewsRunner qrunner exiting.
> Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30374) RetryRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
> Jun 18 02:20:25 2017 (30374) RetryRunner qrunner exiting.


The above looks like normal entries for a "stop" except for a missing
"Master watcher caught SIGTERM.  Exiting.". Are you saying that
"restart" acts like "stop"?


> (the restart is getting triggered by some logrotate-magic but this is
> also happening from time to time when executing it directly)


The logrotate script should do "reopen", not "restart".


> I cannot see any segfault or exception by now and wondering whether only
> me is seeing this kind of issue?


I have not seen any reports of "restart" not restarting.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From zalezny.niezalezny at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 12:53:03 2017
From: zalezny.niezalezny at gmail.com (Zalezny Niezalezny)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:53:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] moderation without webpanel - how to setup in
 mailman 2 ?
Message-ID: <CAKPGuG9pXO6Tuy6hD_3YLTwgSd6tGudQP1h4W6byGi73+QnrXw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I would like to setup some newsletter where, external company sending an
E-mail on the mailing list address, and after few seconds E-mail return to
them with msg file(message file) to approve it.

External company checking if e-mail looks good, replying on that e-mail and
system starting to send that message to few thousands user.


How to configure this kind of moderation without webpanel ?
Unfortunately external company doesnt have an access to mailman internal
webpanel.



Sorry that Im asking the same question several times, but till now I havent
found any good solution for it.


With kind regards

Zalezny

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 21 13:24:31 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 10:24:31 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] moderation without webpanel - how to setup in
 mailman 2 ?
In-Reply-To: <CAKPGuG9pXO6Tuy6hD_3YLTwgSd6tGudQP1h4W6byGi73+QnrXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKPGuG9pXO6Tuy6hD_3YLTwgSd6tGudQP1h4W6byGi73+QnrXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <73626915-9441-0b5e-3d1d-83a41d91888a@msapiro.net>

On 06/21/2017 09:53 AM, Zalezny Niezalezny wrote:
> 
> I would like to setup some newsletter where, external company sending an
> E-mail on the mailing list address, and after few seconds E-mail return to
> them with msg file(message file) to approve it.


If you set admin_immed_notify to Yes, such a message will be sent to the
owners and moderators of the list, and the held message can be approved
by replying to the message contained in the third MIME part with

Approved: <password>

as a header or the first body line of the reply where <password> is the
lists admin or moderator password. If the Approved: header is missing,
the message will be discarded. Note that the reply must be to the
message in the third MIME part, not the outer "notice", or at least sent
to the list's -request address with the confirm <token> in the Subject.

Thus, you can do this if the external company sender is a moderator and
knows the moderator password.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 21 13:28:11 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 10:28:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.23: Issues with mailmanctl restart
In-Reply-To: <47cbc2d1d7d2be84991a8806ea90b539@frank.uvena.de>
References: <47cbc2d1d7d2be84991a8806ea90b539@frank.uvena.de>
Message-ID: <916aecc3-5f2f-a453-2677-4e20a7fe389d@msapiro.net>

> On 06/20/2017 07:12 AM, Frank Lanitz wrote:
>> 
>> I have seen recently issues with mailmanctl restart: From time to time
>> there seems to be some kind of race condition between shutdown and
>> startup. Inside qrunner log it looks something like ? but not started.
>> 
>> Jun 18 02:20:21 2017 (30372) OutgoingRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM. 
>> Stopping.
>> Jun 18 02:20:21 2017 (30368) BounceRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM. 
>> Stopping.
>> Jun 18 02:20:21 2017 (30368) BounceRunner qrunner exiting.
>> Jun 18 02:20:21 2017 (30372) OutgoingRunner qrunner exiting.
>> Jun 18 02:20:21 2017 (30370) IncomingRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM. 
>> Stopping.
>> Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30370) IncomingRunner qrunner exiting.
>> Jun 18 02:20:21 2017 (30373) VirginRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM. 
>> Stopping.
>> Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30367) ArchRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
>> Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30367) ArchRunner qrunner exiting.
>> Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30369) CommandRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM. 
>> Stopping.
>> Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30373) VirginRunner qrunner exiting.
>> Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30369) CommandRunner qrunner exiting.
>> Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30371) NewsRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
>> Jun 18 02:20:24 2017 (30371) NewsRunner qrunner exiting.
>> Jun 18 02:20:22 2017 (30374) RetryRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
>> Jun 18 02:20:25 2017 (30374) RetryRunner qrunner exiting.


Also, in addition to my prior reply, note that "restart" should be
sending SIGINT to the runners, not SIGTERM

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From SP2L at sp2l.ampr.org  Fri Jun 23 05:40:31 2017
From: SP2L at sp2l.ampr.org (SP2L)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 11:40:31 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.24
In-Reply-To: <47cbc2d1d7d2be84991a8806ea90b539@frank.uvena.de>
References: <47cbc2d1d7d2be84991a8806ea90b539@frank.uvena.de>
Message-ID: <15cd4522808.2829.0d5d507b467de5f1925475a5a25b732f@sp2l.ampr.org>

Greetings.


Today successfully upgraded mailman instance running
on my server from Mailman-2.1.23 to Mailman-2.1.24
without any issues so far.

The only action taken was to run twice command
bin/check_perms -f in order to fix 226 ownership errors
- "root" been replaced by "mailman".


Best regards.
---
Tom - SP2L

Sent from Xperia Z1 with AquaMail
http:/?/?www?.?aqua-mail?.?com




From bryant at sandiego.edu  Thu Jun 29 15:03:11 2017
From: bryant at sandiego.edu (Bryan Teague)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 15:03:11 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sync_users output
Message-ID: <73596DED-8FF7-40F5-B975-E9C91F821A70@sandiego.edu>

Hi, 

I know that the sync_users -n will provide information on what the script would have done.  If you run the command without the -n,  will it output what was done? 

I looked, but could not find anything on the output of the script other than with the -n. 

Thanks,
Bryan

Bryan Teague | Senior Web Administrator  | University Web Services | ITS | Maher Hall, Room 198 
5998 Alcal? Park | San Diego, CA 92110-2492 | P: (619) 260-7842 | C: (619) 321-7288 
bryant at sandiego.edu <mailto:bryant at sandiego.edu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jun 29 17:00:05 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 14:00:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sync_users output
In-Reply-To: <73596DED-8FF7-40F5-B975-E9C91F821A70@sandiego.edu>
References: <73596DED-8FF7-40F5-B975-E9C91F821A70@sandiego.edu>
Message-ID: <dbbfa616-f5c5-f63e-8519-503680c26cb7@msapiro.net>

On 6/29/17 12:03 PM, Bryan Teague wrote:
> Hi, 
> 
> I know that the sync_users -n will provide information on what the script would have done.  If you run the command without the -n,  will it output what was done? 


If you mean sync_members, the output will be the same with one possible
addition. If an address to be added is banned from the list, '-n' will
not report this because the script actually has to try to add the
address to find if it's banned, but without '-n', attempts to add banned
addresses will fail and be reported.

If you actually mean sync_users, I don't know what that is or what it does.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From bryant at sandiego.edu  Fri Jun 30 11:41:51 2017
From: bryant at sandiego.edu (Bryan Teague)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 11:41:51 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sync_users output
In-Reply-To: <dbbfa616-f5c5-f63e-8519-503680c26cb7@msapiro.net>
References: <73596DED-8FF7-40F5-B975-E9C91F821A70@sandiego.edu>
 <dbbfa616-f5c5-f63e-8519-503680c26cb7@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56D22C05-EFE5-4990-A9B6-D5D3A8326B28@sandiego.edu>

Hi Mark, 

Thanks for the explanation.  I did mean sync_members.  

Bryan

Bryan Teague | Senior Web Administrator  | University Web Services | ITS | Maher Hall, Room 198 
5998 Alcal? Park | San Diego, CA 92110-2492 | P: (619) 260-7842 | C: (619) 321-7288 
bryant at sandiego.edu <mailto:bryant at sandiego.edu>
> On Jun 29, 2017, at 5:00 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> 
> On 6/29/17 12:03 PM, Bryan Teague wrote:
>> Hi, 
>> 
>> I know that the sync_users -n will provide information on what the script would have done.  If you run the command without the -n,  will it output what was done? 
> 
> 
> If you mean sync_members, the output will be the same with one possible
> addition. If an address to be added is banned from the list, '-n' will
> not report this because the script actually has to try to add the
> address to find if it's banned, but without '-n', attempts to add banned
> addresses will fail and be reported.
> 
> If you actually mean sync_users, I don't know what that is or what it does.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/bryant%40sandiego.edu


From kayla.manchette at devplateau.com  Fri Jun 30 18:50:07 2017
From: kayla.manchette at devplateau.com (Kayla Manchette)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 18:50:07 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Cannot navigate to admin web portal
Message-ID: <cfd331e0-2f6c-cad6-d7de-f669ea2ea31d@devplateau.com>

Hello,

I have recently installed the mailman version that comes with Ubuntu 
Server 16.04, so I believe that's 2.1.20 (hopefully).

I am having when issue where when I try to navigate to the admin page on 
my server, I receive a 404 error that looks like it is coming from 
Nginx. At least that's what it says on the bottom of the page that 
comes. I don't know why, I thought I had set it up with Apache.

I thought I had found the proper code to put in my Nginx file, this:

location /cgi-bin/mailman {
         root /usr/lib/;
         fastcgi_split_path_info (^/cgi-bin/mailman/[^/]*)(.*)$;
         include /etc/nginx/fastcgi_params;
         fastcgi_param SCRIPT_FILENAME $document_root$fastcgi_script_name;
         fastcgi_param PATH_INFO $fastcgi_path_info;
         fastcgi_param PATH_TRANSLATED $document_root$fastcgi_path_info;
         fastcgi_intercept_errors on;
         fastcgi_pass unix:/var/run/fcgiwrap.socket;
     }
     location /images/mailman {
         alias /usr/share/images/mailman;
     }
     location /pipermail {
         alias /var/lib/mailman/archives/public; autoindex on;
     }

But that did not seem to do anything. Attached (hopefully) you will find 
my full Nginx default configuration so that you can see the whole thing.

I also have mailcow-dockerized installed on this server. Could this 
possibility be the reason that the web interface will not work? I have 
not tried if the command line interface works (I probably should) but I 
want to get the web interface working for my users.

If anyone can help me figure out why this is happening, that would be 
awesome. I am trying to get this figured out kind of quickly.


-------------- next part --------------
##
# You should look at the following URL's in order to grasp a solid understanding
# of Nginx configuration files in order to fully unleash the power of Nginx.
# http://wiki.nginx.org/Pitfalls
# http://wiki.nginx.org/QuickStart
# http://wiki.nginx.org/Configuration
#
# Generally, you will want to move this file somewhere, and start with a clean
# file but keep this around for reference. Or just disable in sites-enabled.
#
# Please see /usr/share/doc/nginx-doc/examples/ for more detailed examples.
##

# Default server configuration
#
server {
	#listen 80 default_server;
	#listen [::]:80 default_server;

	# SSL configuration
	#
	# listen 443 ssl default_server;
	# listen [::]:443 ssl default_server;
	listen 8000 default_server;
	listen [::]:8000 default_server;
	#
	# Note: You should disable gzip for SSL traffic.
	# See: https://bugs.debian.org/773332
	#
	# Read up on ssl_ciphers to ensure a secure configuration.
	# See: https://bugs.debian.org/765782
	#
	# Self signed certs generated by the ssl-cert package
	# Don't use them in a production server!
	#
	# include snippets/snakeoil.conf;

	root /usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman;

	# Add index.php to the list if you are using PHP
	index index.html index.htm index.nginx-debian.html;

	server_name _;

	location /cgi-bin/mailman {
		root /usr/lib/;
		fastcgi_split_path_info (^/cgi-bin/mailman/[^/]*)(.*)$;
		include /etc/nginx/fastcgi_params;
		fastcgi_param SCRIPT_FILENAME $document_root$fastcgi_script_name;
		fastcgi_param PATH_INFO $fastcgi_path_info;
		fastcgi_param PATH_TRANSLATED $document_root$fastcgi_path_info;
		fastcgi_intercept_errors on;
		fastcgi_pass unix:/var/run/fcgiwrap.socket;
	}
	location /images/mailman {
		alias /usr/share/images/mailman;
	}
	location /pipermail {
		alias /var/lib/mailman/archives/public; autoindex on;
	}
	
	location / {
		# First attempt to serve request as file, then
		# as directory, then fall back to displaying a 404.
		try_files $uri $uri/ =404;
	}

	# pass the PHP scripts to FastCGI server listening on 127.0.0.1:9000
	#
	#location ~ \.php$ {
	#	include snippets/fastcgi-php.conf;
	#
	#	# With php7.0-cgi alone:
	#	fastcgi_pass 127.0.0.1:9000;
	#	# With php7.0-fpm:
	#	fastcgi_pass unix:/run/php/php7.0-fpm.sock;
	#}

	# deny access to .htaccess files, if Apache's document root
	# concurs with nginx's one
	#
	#location ~ /\.ht {
	#	deny all;
	#}
}


# Virtual Host configuration for example.com
#
# You can move that to a different file under sites-available/ and symlink that
# to sites-enabled/ to enable it.
#
#server {
#	listen 80;
#	listen [::]:80;
#
#	server_name example.com;
#
#	root /var/www/example.com;
#	index index.html;
#
#	location / {
#		try_files $uri $uri/ =404;
#	}
#}