From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Dec  1 14:41:54 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 11:41:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Suppress new incoming messages,
 but able to view private archives
In-Reply-To: <CC59AB08-3B5B-44A3-8D27-EDD89DC18E06@contoso.com>
References: <CC59AB08-3B5B-44A3-8D27-EDD89DC18E06@contoso.com>
Message-ID: <bc134d7b-a831-22d8-4d6a-f96c91912cf0@msapiro.net>

On 11/30/2017 08:29 AM, Dang Tran wrote:
> 
> Can I set up a subscriber so that s/he has access to the archives (private), but does not receive messages?  Another word ? suppress new incoming message, only be able to view archives.


Set her subscription to no mail. A list admin can do this on the web
admin membership list by checking the 'nomail' box or it can be done by
the user or a list admin from the user's options page by setting 'Mail
delivery' to 'Disabled'. See
<https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%202.1%20Members%20Manual#A7.1_How_do_I_turn_mail_delivery_on_or_off.3F_.28delivery_option.29>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From odhiambo at gmail.com  Sat Dec  2 01:26:51 2017
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 09:26:51 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stadistics
In-Reply-To: <8863ede2-77e6-0bca-f55a-d40689e9190a@msapiro.net>
References: <4B0E8C62-FB9D-4080-90EB-E7CF24A5AF1F@evangelizacion.org.mx>
 <8863ede2-77e6-0bca-f55a-d40689e9190a@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WO5BPG7XOwz96i9RmSRyFk-k81qD3C-aOwTRt9=tmkcZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 25 November 2017 at 01:05, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 11/24/2017 01:39 PM, Jesus Rivas wrote:
> > Hi, there are any way to get statistics from mailman 2.1.14, some
> graphical, i use pflogsumm, there are any software for statistics like used
> for mailchimp and other?
>
>
> Mailman writes fairly extensive log information, but tools to analyze
> and report that info are lacking. In the contrib/ directory in the
> distribution there is an 'mmdsr' (Mailman Daily Status Report) script
> and a README.mmdsr file, but this is intended more for daily health
> monitoring, not statistics reporting.
>
> People may have made their own log file analysis tools, but none other
> than mmdsr have been contributed back to the project.
>
> There is also a contrib/post-count script that examines a list's
> archives and produces a report by month of number of posts and total
> message size.
>

I have used/I am using mail-trends[1] to produce some stats as
can be seen from the community Mailing List [2] I've managed since 2005.

I hope it pleases the OP.

[1] https://github.com/jpbarraca/mail-trends
[2]  https://www.kictanet.or.ke/mail-trends/

-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223
"Oh, the cruft."

From listown at nanniandjack.com  Mon Dec  4 14:37:23 2017
From: listown at nanniandjack.com (List Manager)
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 12:37:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderator Message List
Message-ID: <41ddff2b047903abd565cdaa4e73ec1d@nanniandjack.com>

Is there a way, with mailman 2.1.24 to sort the Pending Moderator
Requests list in something other than alphabetically?

Chronologically would be especially helpful. The list I manage is
subscriber-only post, and with loads of SPAM and a few members on
moderate, I am concerned that by the time I reach the end of the list of
messages with status "defer" something from a member may be added to the
list and get deleted if I select "Discard messages marked Defer"
Ideas?
--
Jack Hill, W4KH - BoatAnchors Listowner/Archiver
"Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose"
"Il n'y a que les idiots qui ne changent jamais d'idee"

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec  4 22:34:26 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 19:34:26 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderator Message List
In-Reply-To: <41ddff2b047903abd565cdaa4e73ec1d@nanniandjack.com>
References: <41ddff2b047903abd565cdaa4e73ec1d@nanniandjack.com>
Message-ID: <380c5fb0-cf35-e493-70c9-dfd7fa053920@msapiro.net>

On 12/04/2017 11:37 AM, List Manager wrote:
> Is there a way, with mailman 2.1.24 to sort the Pending Moderator
> Requests list in something other than alphabetically?


Yes.


> Chronologically would be especially helpful. The list I manage is
> subscriber-only post, and with loads of SPAM and a few members on
> moderate, I am concerned that by the time I reach the end of the list of
> messages with status "defer" something from a member may be added to the
> list and get deleted if I select "Discard messages marked Defer"


First of all, the "Discard messages marked Defer" selection will not
discard any messages which aren't listed and marked Defer on the page
when you submit it, so you don't need to worry about discarding messages
that arrived after you loaded the page.

As far as sorting is concerned, if you can update the server config or
influence those that can, since Mailman 2.1.16, there is the following:

# Shall the admindb held message summary display the grouping and sorting
# option radio buttons?  Set this in mm_cfg.py to one of the following:
# SSENDER -> Default to grouped and sorted by sender.
# SSENDERTIME -> Default to grouped by sender and sorted by time.
# STIME -> Default to ungrouped and sorted by time.
DISPLAY_HELD_SUMMARY_SORT_BUTTONS = No

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From listown at nanniandjack.com  Tue Dec  5 18:38:41 2017
From: listown at nanniandjack.com (List Manager)
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 16:38:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderator Message List
In-Reply-To: <mailman.0.1512493202.23319.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.0.1512493202.23319.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <325859c50756383b0b230cc55703d615@nanniandjack.com>

Yesterday, I asked: Is there a way, with mailman 2.1.24 to sort the
Pending Moderator
Requests list in something other than alphabetically? Chronologically
would be especially helpful. 

And Mark answered:
> Yes.
> First of all, the "Discard messages marked Defer" selection will not
> discard any messages which aren't listed and marked Defer on the page
> when you submit it, so you don't need to worry about discarding messages
>that arrived after you loaded the page. 

VERY good to know... HOWEVER, since my moderator list of deferrals has
both SPAM and a few members set to moderate, and I check these moderated
members' messages as I encounter them on the list, that means the list
is being reloaded after each moderated message I handle, so my fear is
justified (though I wish it were not)... 

> As far as sorting is concerned, if you can update the server config or
> influence those that can 

I can do both/either 

# Shall the admindb held message summary display the grouping and
sorting
# option radio buttons? Set this in mm_cfg.py to one of the following:
# SSENDER -> Default to grouped and sorted by sender.
# SSENDERTIME -> Default to grouped by sender and sorted by time.
# STIME -> Default to ungrouped and sorted by time.
DISPLAY_HELD_SUMMARY_SORT_BUTTONS = No 

Key question here: does this impact ALL lists on the server, or just my
list? I have not mucked about with configuration settings for the list,
save those on the Admin web page(s), and we have several lists managed
by other people, whose toes I'd like to avoid trampling upon...
--
Jack Hill, W4KH - BoatAnchors Listowner/Archiver
"Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose"
"Il n'y a que les idiots qui ne changent jamais d'idee"

From mailman-admin at uni-konstanz.de  Wed Dec  6 05:51:33 2017
From: mailman-admin at uni-konstanz.de (mailman-admin)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 11:51:33 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderator Message List
In-Reply-To: <325859c50756383b0b230cc55703d615@nanniandjack.com>
References: <mailman.0.1512493202.23319.mailman-users@python.org>
 <325859c50756383b0b230cc55703d615@nanniandjack.com>
Message-ID: <dee571cc-5727-3409-7105-f536ae1020e2@uni-konstanz.de>

Hello

Am 06.12.2017 um 00:38 schrieb List Manager:
> Yesterday, I asked: Is there a way, with mailman 2.1.24 to sort the
> Pending Moderator
> Requests list in something other than alphabetically? Chronologically
> would be especially helpful. 
> 
> And Mark answered:
>> Yes.
>> First of all, the "Discard messages marked Defer" selection will not
>> discard any messages which aren't listed and marked Defer on the page
>> when you submit it, so you don't need to worry about discarding messages
>> that arrived after you loaded the page. 
> 
> VERY good to know... HOWEVER, since my moderator list of deferrals has
> both SPAM and a few members set to moderate, and I check these moderated
> members' messages as I encounter them on the list, that means the list
> is being reloaded after each moderated message I handle, so my fear is
> justified (though I wish it were not)... 
> 

You always have to check all listed emails on the moderation page,
before using that button.
Moderation is a tedious task, and there is nothing to prevent that.


>> As far as sorting is concerned, if you can update the server config or
>> influence those that can 
> 
> I can do both/either 
> 
> # Shall the admindb held message summary display the grouping and
> sorting
> # option radio buttons? Set this in mm_cfg.py to one of the following:
> # SSENDER -> Default to grouped and sorted by sender.
> # SSENDERTIME -> Default to grouped by sender and sorted by time.
> # STIME -> Default to ungrouped and sorted by time.
> DISPLAY_HELD_SUMMARY_SORT_BUTTONS = No 
> 
> Key question here: does this impact ALL lists on the server, or just my
> list? I have not mucked about with configuration settings for the list,
> save those on the Admin web page(s), and we have several lists managed
> by other people, whose toes I'd like to avoid trampling upon...

You activate a default setting for all lists, but all admins/moderators
can change that for their list in the moderation page.


Kind regards,
Christian Mack

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec  6 11:05:22 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 08:05:22 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderator Message List
In-Reply-To: <dee571cc-5727-3409-7105-f536ae1020e2@uni-konstanz.de>
References: <mailman.0.1512493202.23319.mailman-users@python.org>
 <325859c50756383b0b230cc55703d615@nanniandjack.com>
 <dee571cc-5727-3409-7105-f536ae1020e2@uni-konstanz.de>
Message-ID: <0531b0b3-b4bb-21ab-087f-633c11104549@msapiro.net>

On 12/06/2017 02:51 AM, mailman-admin wrote:
> 
> Am 06.12.2017 um 00:38 schrieb List Manager:
>>
>> I can do both/either 
>>
>> # Shall the admindb held message summary display the grouping and
>> sorting
>> # option radio buttons? Set this in mm_cfg.py to one of the following:
>> # SSENDER -> Default to grouped and sorted by sender.
>> # SSENDERTIME -> Default to grouped by sender and sorted by time.
>> # STIME -> Default to ungrouped and sorted by time.
>> DISPLAY_HELD_SUMMARY_SORT_BUTTONS = No 
>>
>> Key question here: does this impact ALL lists on the server, or just my
>> list? I have not mucked about with configuration settings for the list,
>> save those on the Admin web page(s), and we have several lists managed
>> by other people, whose toes I'd like to avoid trampling upon...
> 
> You activate a default setting for all lists, but all admins/moderators
> can change that for their list in the moderation page.


Also note that if you set

DISPLAY_HELD_SUMMARY_SORT_BUTTONS = SSENDER

The display will be the same as with "No". The only difference is there
will be 3 radio buttons at the top of the page that can be used to
select a different sort/grouping.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From rbeatteay at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  7 00:43:03 2017
From: rbeatteay at yahoo.com (Ron Beatteay)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 05:43:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to the List
In-Reply-To: <325859c50756383b0b230cc55703d615@nanniandjack.com>
References: <mailman.0.1512493202.23319.mailman-users@python.org>
 <325859c50756383b0b230cc55703d615@nanniandjack.com>
Message-ID: <1222694008.141145.1512625384011@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi all,?
I?m new to mailman. ?My previous Listserv?platform ( LSoft ) made it easy to reply to?discussions?by automatically sending replies?to the list. ?With mailman, replies?go to the?person, not the list,, so we?have to make the?extra step of correcting the?outgoing to: address. ??Is there a way to make?that default in settings?
Ron

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad


On Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 3:38 PM, List Manager <listown at nanniandjack.com> wrote:

Yesterday, I asked: Is there a way, with mailman 2.1.24 to sort the
Pending Moderator
Requests list in something other than alphabetically? Chronologically
would be especially helpful. 

And Mark answered:
> Yes.
> First of all, the "Discard messages marked Defer" selection will not
> discard any messages which aren't listed and marked Defer on the page
> when you submit it, so you don't need to worry about discarding messages
>that arrived after you loaded the page. 

VERY good to know... HOWEVER, since my moderator list of deferrals has
both SPAM and a few members set to moderate, and I check these moderated
members' messages as I encounter them on the list, that means the list
is being reloaded after each moderated message I handle, so my fear is
justified (though I wish it were not)... 

> As far as sorting is concerned, if you can update the server config or
> influence those that can 

I can do both/either 

# Shall the admindb held message summary display the grouping and
sorting
# option radio buttons? Set this in mm_cfg.py to one of the following:
# SSENDER -> Default to grouped and sorted by sender.
# SSENDERTIME -> Default to grouped by sender and sorted by time.
# STIME -> Default to ungrouped and sorted by time.
DISPLAY_HELD_SUMMARY_SORT_BUTTONS = No 

Key question here: does this impact ALL lists on the server, or just my
list? I have not mucked about with configuration settings for the list,
save those on the Admin web page(s), and we have several lists managed
by other people, whose toes I'd like to avoid trampling upon...
--
Jack Hill, W4KH - BoatAnchors Listowner/Archiver
"Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose"
"Il n'y a que les idiots qui ne changent jamais d'idee"
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/rbeatteay%40yahoo.com




From phils at caerllewys.net  Thu Dec  7 12:15:05 2017
From: phils at caerllewys.net (Phil Stracchino)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 12:15:05 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to the List
In-Reply-To: <1222694008.141145.1512625384011@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.0.1512493202.23319.mailman-users@python.org>
 <325859c50756383b0b230cc55703d615@nanniandjack.com>
 <1222694008.141145.1512625384011@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <158764e0-0f88-350f-f5bd-baf97f2ac5ac@caerllewys.net>

On 12/07/17 00:43, Ron Beatteay via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Hi all,?
> I?m new to mailman. ?My previous Listserv?platform ( LSoft ) made it easy to reply to?discussions?by automatically sending replies?to the list. ?With mailman, replies?go to the?person, not the list,, so we?have to make the?extra step of correcting the?outgoing to: address. ??Is there a way to make?that default in settings?

Yes.  The documentation explains how.

Short version for free:  Edit /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py and add the
following line anywhere AFTER 'from Defaults import *':

DEFAULT_REPLY_GOES_TO_LIST = 1



-- 
  Phil Stracchino
  Babylon Communications
  phils at caerllewys.net
  phil at co.ordinate.org
  Landline: +1.603.293.8485
  Mobile:   +1.603.998.6958

From phils at caerllewys.net  Thu Dec  7 13:21:56 2017
From: phils at caerllewys.net (Phil Stracchino)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 13:21:56 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to the List
In-Reply-To: <b837437f-1f6c-5a20-0386-841fda83fd4f@maileater.net>
References: <mailman.0.1512493202.23319.mailman-users@python.org>
 <325859c50756383b0b230cc55703d615@nanniandjack.com>
 <1222694008.141145.1512625384011@mail.yahoo.com>
 <158764e0-0f88-350f-f5bd-baf97f2ac5ac@caerllewys.net>
 <b837437f-1f6c-5a20-0386-841fda83fd4f@maileater.net>
Message-ID: <a1fd538e-cf45-903e-24fc-4af964e13b5b@caerllewys.net>

On 12/07/17 13:17, Jordan Brown wrote:
> On 12/7/2017 9:15 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
>> On 12/07/17 00:43, Ron Beatteay via Mailman-Users wrote:
>>> Hi all,?
>>> I?m new to mailman. ?My previous Listserv?platform ( LSoft ) made it easy to reply to?discussions?by automatically sending replies?to the list. ?With mailman, replies?go to the?person, not the list,, so we?have to make the?extra step of correcting the?outgoing to: address. ??Is there a way to make?that default in settings?
>> Yes.  The documentation explains how.
>>
>> Short version for free:  Edit /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py and add the
>> following line anywhere AFTER 'from Defaults import *':
>>
>> DEFAULT_REPLY_GOES_TO_LIST = 1
> 
> But don't do it.? Teach your users to use "Reply All" when they want to
> talk to everybody and "Reply" when they want to talk to the author of
> the particular message.
> 
> Mailing list mechanisms that set "Reply-To" to point to the mailing list
> inevitably lead to messages that are intended to be private being
> accidentally sent to the entire list.


This is a religious dispute.  Both schools of thought have their
adherents and their vehement opponents, and some mailers still do not
provide separate options for reply-to-sender and reply-to-list.

The smart-money choice is to carefully consider on a list-by-list basis
which policy is appropriate for the list in question.


-- 
  Phil Stracchino
  Babylon Communications
  phils at caerllewys.net
  phil at co.ordinate.org
  Landline: +1.603.293.8485
  Mobile:   +1.603.998.6958

From mailman at jordan.maileater.net  Thu Dec  7 13:25:23 2017
From: mailman at jordan.maileater.net (Jordan Brown)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 10:25:23 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to the List
In-Reply-To: <a1fd538e-cf45-903e-24fc-4af964e13b5b@caerllewys.net>
References: <mailman.0.1512493202.23319.mailman-users@python.org>
 <325859c50756383b0b230cc55703d615@nanniandjack.com>
 <1222694008.141145.1512625384011@mail.yahoo.com>
 <158764e0-0f88-350f-f5bd-baf97f2ac5ac@caerllewys.net>
 <b837437f-1f6c-5a20-0386-841fda83fd4f@maileater.net>
 <a1fd538e-cf45-903e-24fc-4af964e13b5b@caerllewys.net>
Message-ID: <1f249e3a-702d-1319-0857-59dffd8a3609@maileater.net>

On 12/7/2017 10:21 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
> This is a religious dispute.

Yep.


From dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu  Thu Dec  7 13:39:51 2017
From: dmaziuk at bmrb.wisc.edu (Dimitri Maziuk)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 12:39:51 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to the List
In-Reply-To: <1f249e3a-702d-1319-0857-59dffd8a3609@maileater.net>
References: <mailman.0.1512493202.23319.mailman-users@python.org>
 <325859c50756383b0b230cc55703d615@nanniandjack.com>
 <1222694008.141145.1512625384011@mail.yahoo.com>
 <158764e0-0f88-350f-f5bd-baf97f2ac5ac@caerllewys.net>
 <b837437f-1f6c-5a20-0386-841fda83fd4f@maileater.net>
 <a1fd538e-cf45-903e-24fc-4af964e13b5b@caerllewys.net>
 <1f249e3a-702d-1319-0857-59dffd8a3609@maileater.net>
Message-ID: <7c37aff6-639e-4239-7595-12a000178cbb@bmrb.wisc.edu>

On 12/07/2017 12:25 PM, Jordan Brown wrote:
> On 12/7/2017 10:21 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
>> This is a religious dispute.
> 
> Yep.

Only FVO religion = "belief that computer can read your mind".

Presumably there exist some lists and/or users out there for which
replying to one or the other (or both) is *always* The Right Thing(tm).
I don't remember ever running into one myself.

-- 
Dimitri Maziuk
Programmer/sysadmin
BioMagResBank, UW-Madison -- http://www.bmrb.wisc.edu

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 190 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/attachments/20171207/829546a0/attachment.sig>

From mailman at jordan.maileater.net  Thu Dec  7 13:17:20 2017
From: mailman at jordan.maileater.net (Jordan Brown)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 10:17:20 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to the List
In-Reply-To: <158764e0-0f88-350f-f5bd-baf97f2ac5ac@caerllewys.net>
References: <mailman.0.1512493202.23319.mailman-users@python.org>
 <325859c50756383b0b230cc55703d615@nanniandjack.com>
 <1222694008.141145.1512625384011@mail.yahoo.com>
 <158764e0-0f88-350f-f5bd-baf97f2ac5ac@caerllewys.net>
Message-ID: <b837437f-1f6c-5a20-0386-841fda83fd4f@maileater.net>

On 12/7/2017 9:15 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
> On 12/07/17 00:43, Ron Beatteay via Mailman-Users wrote:
>> Hi all,?
>> I?m new to mailman. ?My previous Listserv?platform ( LSoft ) made it easy to reply to?discussions?by automatically sending replies?to the list. ?With mailman, replies?go to the?person, not the list,, so we?have to make the?extra step of correcting the?outgoing to: address. ??Is there a way to make?that default in settings?
> Yes.  The documentation explains how.
>
> Short version for free:  Edit /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py and add the
> following line anywhere AFTER 'from Defaults import *':
>
> DEFAULT_REPLY_GOES_TO_LIST = 1

But don't do it.? Teach your users to use "Reply All" when they want to
talk to everybody and "Reply" when they want to talk to the author of
the particular message.

Mailing list mechanisms that set "Reply-To" to point to the mailing list
inevitably lead to messages that are intended to be private being
accidentally sent to the entire list.

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec  7 14:29:31 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 11:29:31 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to the List
In-Reply-To: <158764e0-0f88-350f-f5bd-baf97f2ac5ac@caerllewys.net>
References: <mailman.0.1512493202.23319.mailman-users@python.org>
 <325859c50756383b0b230cc55703d615@nanniandjack.com>
 <1222694008.141145.1512625384011@mail.yahoo.com>
 <158764e0-0f88-350f-f5bd-baf97f2ac5ac@caerllewys.net>
Message-ID: <044bf1f5-254a-22c7-3e54-4d812964ecea@msapiro.net>

On 12/07/2017 09:15 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
> 
> Short version for free:  Edit /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py and add the
> following line anywhere AFTER 'from Defaults import *':
> 
> DEFAULT_REPLY_GOES_TO_LIST = 1


It is not necessary and probably not effective in this case to edit
mm_cfg.py. That only sets the default for new lists.

What is wanted in this case is the settings on the web admin UI General
Options page under Reply-To: header munging. In particular:

Where are replies to list messages directed? Poster is strongly
recommended for most mailing lists.
(Details for reply_goes_to_list)

And do follow the Details link and read the articles linked therefrom
and also <http://marc.merlins.org/netrants/reply-to-still-harmful.html>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From chip at aresti.com  Thu Dec  7 21:19:19 2017
From: chip at aresti.com (Chip Davis)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 21:19:19 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to the List
In-Reply-To: <044bf1f5-254a-22c7-3e54-4d812964ecea@msapiro.net>
References: <mailman.0.1512493202.23319.mailman-users@python.org>
 <325859c50756383b0b230cc55703d615@nanniandjack.com>
 <1222694008.141145.1512625384011@mail.yahoo.com>
 <158764e0-0f88-350f-f5bd-baf97f2ac5ac@caerllewys.net>
 <044bf1f5-254a-22c7-3e54-4d812964ecea@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <b6d4dda0-5789-6be0-c9f8-990234daf884@aresti.com>

On 12/7/2017 2:29 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/07/2017 09:15 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
>>
>> Short version for free:  Edit /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py and add the
>> following line anywhere AFTER 'from Defaults import *':
>>
>> DEFAULT_REPLY_GOES_TO_LIST = 1
> 
> 
> It is not necessary and probably not effective in this case to edit
> mm_cfg.py. That only sets the default for new lists.
> 
> What is wanted in this case is the settings on the web admin UI General
> Options page under Reply-To: header munging. In particular:
> 
> Where are replies to list messages directed? Poster is strongly
> recommended for most mailing lists.
> (Details for reply_goes_to_list)

And I have no problem with that (except that editorial advice probably 
doesn't belong on a settings page) because it refers to a "mailing 
list".  I have no statistics, but my exposure to Mailman has been 
almost exclusively as a "discussion list".  Therefore, all of the 
Mailman instances that I admin ignore this "strong recommendation" and 
set 'reply_goes_to_list' to 'This list'.  Yes, that does open the 
DMARC/DKIM can-o-worms, but just about everything useful does... :-/

Perhaps it would be useful to new Mailman admins if there were some 
sort of Quick Start Tutorial that covered appropriate initial settings 
for using Mailman as a:
  - Mailing List
  - Discussion List
  - Suggestion Box
  - IRC bot
  - etc.

-Chip-

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Dec  7 22:04:48 2017
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 20:04:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to the List
In-Reply-To: <b6d4dda0-5789-6be0-c9f8-990234daf884@aresti.com>
References: <mailman.0.1512493202.23319.mailman-users@python.org>
 <325859c50756383b0b230cc55703d615@nanniandjack.com>
 <1222694008.141145.1512625384011@mail.yahoo.com>
 <158764e0-0f88-350f-f5bd-baf97f2ac5ac@caerllewys.net>
 <044bf1f5-254a-22c7-3e54-4d812964ecea@msapiro.net>
 <b6d4dda0-5789-6be0-c9f8-990234daf884@aresti.com>
Message-ID: <21300fd6-f893-56aa-8883-3c96ccca989f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 12/07/2017 07:19 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
> And I have no problem with that (except that editorial advice probably 
> doesn't belong on a settings page) because it refers to a "mailing 
> list".? I have no statistics, but my exposure to Mailman has been almost 
> exclusively as a "discussion list".? Therefore, all of the Mailman 
> instances that I admin ignore this "strong recommendation" and set 
> 'reply_goes_to_list' to 'This list'.? Yes, that does open the DMARC/DKIM 
> can-o-worms, but just about everything useful does... :-/

I came to the conclusion long ago that there are effectively two types 
of mailing lists, 1) broadcast lists where replies go somewhere other 
than the list and 2) discussion lists where replies go back to the 
mailing list.

Which should be used is an often debated topic.  In some ways, it's as 
religious as vi vs emacs.

Ultimately, it comes down to what you, as a mailing list administrator 
want to do.  Sure, you can take some influence from your subscribers. 
But it is /your/ choice as the administrator.

I think that Mailman (et al) should inform administrators of the 
potential caveats of their decision, not try to persuade them one way or 
the other.

I personally feel like discussion mailing lists are their own entity. 
Thus they are the author of the message (with content heavily based on 
incoming emails) and as such all aspects of the message should reflect 
the discussion mailing list.  (I'm also a vim user.)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


From jorohr at gmail.com  Sat Dec  9 05:23:42 2017
From: jorohr at gmail.com (Johannes Rohr)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 11:23:42 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] change links in mail footer to https
Message-ID: <cec7a254-78aa-dbbf-2a92-0d59731f892c@gmail.com>

Hi, all the links in mails generated by mailman start with http, even
though DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN starts with https. How can I change this?

Thanks a lot in advance for any advice,

Johannes

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 512 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/attachments/20171209/1f66152e/attachment.sig>

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Dec  9 13:02:04 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 10:02:04 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] change links in mail footer to https
In-Reply-To: <cec7a254-78aa-dbbf-2a92-0d59731f892c@gmail.com>
References: <cec7a254-78aa-dbbf-2a92-0d59731f892c@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16cc9c9b-37d6-262a-8309-8d22986004d4@msapiro.net>

On 12/09/2017 02:23 AM, Johannes Rohr wrote:
> Hi, all the links in mails generated by mailman start with http, even
> though DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN starts with https. How can I change this?


See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030616>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 181 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/attachments/20171209/64c97624/attachment.sig>

From chip at aresti.com  Sat Dec  9 13:40:15 2017
From: chip at aresti.com (Chip Davis)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 13:40:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] change links in mail footer to https
In-Reply-To: <16cc9c9b-37d6-262a-8309-8d22986004d4@msapiro.net>
References: <cec7a254-78aa-dbbf-2a92-0d59731f892c@gmail.com>
 <16cc9c9b-37d6-262a-8309-8d22986004d4@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <7ac81d24-1cb5-dd44-16d1-bd5165249bd1@aresti.com>

That's all well and good Mark, but surely you know that any fix that 
involves issuing a shell command is useless for those of us 
responsible for lists on a shared server running cPanel (or equivalent).

Is there a procedure that we can implement, or are we just SOL?

Has anyone had any success forwarding the procedure to your host's 
tech support?

-Chip-

On 12/9/2017 1:02 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/09/2017 02:23 AM, Johannes Rohr wrote:
>> Hi, all the links in mails generated by mailman start with http, even
>> though DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN starts with https. How can I change this?
> 
> 
> See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030616>.

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Dec  9 14:06:31 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 11:06:31 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] change links in mail footer to https
In-Reply-To: <7ac81d24-1cb5-dd44-16d1-bd5165249bd1@aresti.com>
References: <cec7a254-78aa-dbbf-2a92-0d59731f892c@gmail.com>
 <16cc9c9b-37d6-262a-8309-8d22986004d4@msapiro.net>
 <7ac81d24-1cb5-dd44-16d1-bd5165249bd1@aresti.com>
Message-ID: <a1554322-0dee-03cb-ee40-81d9f582b3f8@msapiro.net>

On 12/09/2017 10:40 AM, Chip Davis wrote:
> That's all well and good Mark, but surely you know that any fix that
> involves issuing a shell command is useless for those of us responsible
> for lists on a shared server running cPanel (or equivalent).


The OP indicated that he had changed DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN. If he can do
that, he can run fix_url.


> Is there a procedure that we can implement, or are we just SOL?


I know nothing about setting a cPanel domain to use https, but I imaging
more that just the Mailman part of this requires action by a server admin.

The real underlying issue with cPanel is the fact that Mailman just
"comes in the box" with cPanel. There are some hosting services using
cPanel who are very conscientious and cooperative in supporting their
customers use of Mailman, but unfortunately, there are others who only
offer Mailman because it "comes in the box" and are unwilling to put any
effort into supporting it.

If your host won't cooperate, see
<https://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20hosting%20services> for possible
replacements.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From chip at aresti.com  Sat Dec  9 15:02:25 2017
From: chip at aresti.com (Chip Davis)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 15:02:25 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] change links in mail footer to https
In-Reply-To: <a1554322-0dee-03cb-ee40-81d9f582b3f8@msapiro.net>
References: <cec7a254-78aa-dbbf-2a92-0d59731f892c@gmail.com>
 <16cc9c9b-37d6-262a-8309-8d22986004d4@msapiro.net>
 <7ac81d24-1cb5-dd44-16d1-bd5165249bd1@aresti.com>
 <a1554322-0dee-03cb-ee40-81d9f582b3f8@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <9561ec14-194d-adc0-d2ed-5196414dd31f@aresti.com>

Thanks, Mark.

I'll sent that URL to Tech Support and ask them to fix my servers. 
Depending on how they respond, I may contact one of the vendors on 
that list.

With so many lists running on cPanel, I was hoping that someone had 
already figured out a way to do it (or get it done).

-Chip-

On 12/9/2017 2:06 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/09/2017 10:40 AM, Chip Davis wrote:
>> That's all well and good Mark, but surely you know that any fix that
>> involves issuing a shell command is useless for those of us responsible
>> for lists on a shared server running cPanel (or equivalent).
> 
> 
> The OP indicated that he had changed DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN. If he can do
> that, he can run fix_url.
> 
> 
>> Is there a procedure that we can implement, or are we just SOL?
> 
> 
> I know nothing about setting a cPanel domain to use https, but I imaging
> more that just the Mailman part of this requires action by a server admin.
> 
> The real underlying issue with cPanel is the fact that Mailman just
> "comes in the box" with cPanel. There are some hosting services using
> cPanel who are very conscientious and cooperative in supporting their
> customers use of Mailman, but unfortunately, there are others who only
> offer Mailman because it "comes in the box" and are unwilling to put any
> effort into supporting it.
> 
> If your host won't cooperate, see
> <https://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20hosting%20services> for possible
> replacements.
> 

From jorohr at gmail.com  Sun Dec 10 02:33:33 2017
From: jorohr at gmail.com (Johannes Rohr)
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 08:33:33 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] change links in mail footer to https
In-Reply-To: <a1554322-0dee-03cb-ee40-81d9f582b3f8@msapiro.net>
References: <cec7a254-78aa-dbbf-2a92-0d59731f892c@gmail.com>
 <16cc9c9b-37d6-262a-8309-8d22986004d4@msapiro.net>
 <7ac81d24-1cb5-dd44-16d1-bd5165249bd1@aresti.com>
 <a1554322-0dee-03cb-ee40-81d9f582b3f8@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <f4caf163-9815-00f0-f85d-fe08d1847d9e@gmail.com>



Am 09.12.2017 um 20:06 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
> On 12/09/2017 10:40 AM, Chip Davis wrote:
>> That's all well and good Mark, but surely you know that any fix that
>> involves issuing a shell command is useless for those of us responsible
>> for lists on a shared server running cPanel (or equivalent).
>
> The OP indicated that he had changed DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN. If he can do
> that, he can run fix_url.

I have found the reason. There was an error with the config file and
there were two entries for DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN, the first starting with
https and the second which I had not noticed with http. I deleted the
second and now running fix_url dig the trick.

Thanks,

Johannes


-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 512 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/attachments/20171210/0bbb6424/attachment.sig>

From tlhackque at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 10 12:42:36 2017
From: tlhackque at yahoo.com (tlhackque)
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:42:36 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] change links in mail footer to https
In-Reply-To: <a1554322-0dee-03cb-ee40-81d9f582b3f8@msapiro.net>
References: <cec7a254-78aa-dbbf-2a92-0d59731f892c@gmail.com>
 <16cc9c9b-37d6-262a-8309-8d22986004d4@msapiro.net>
 <7ac81d24-1cb5-dd44-16d1-bd5165249bd1@aresti.com>
 <a1554322-0dee-03cb-ee40-81d9f582b3f8@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <515351de-c765-03c4-2233-3f444fb663dc@yahoo.com>

On 09-Dec-17 14:06, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/09/2017 10:40 AM, Chip Davis wrote:
>> That's all well and good Mark, but surely you know that any fix that
>> involves issuing a shell command is useless for those of us responsible
>> for lists on a shared server running cPanel (or equivalent).
>
> The OP indicated that he had changed DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN. If he can do
> that, he can run fix_url.

That is not necessarily true.

On a cPanel-managed website that I support, the "File manager" provides
an editor, which allows any text file to be edited.? And you can set 'x'
permission.? But there is no shell access, and no straightforward way to
execute a file.? (If you're clever and sufficiently motivated, you can
setup a temporary cron job or modify some source file.)

I've had similar issues with people using wiki software; in that case,?
the solution was to add a carefully-protected admin option to allow a
very privileged admin to run a shell command (e.g. system(...)).? As a
developer, I was not enthusiastic - but it seems that a significant
number of people are stuck with hosts that don't provide shell access.?
Of course, my first reaction was "change hosting provider" - but there
were many "I can't" - though the reasons varied.

You might consider adding a super-user menu to allow users to run
withlist; fix_url; etc without shell access.? Or an admin privilege that
can be granted to selected list managers.? If not for MM2, for MM3.

If you don't want to support mailman in environments without shell
access, at a minimum, put a big warning in the install docs that
"administration and maintenance of a mailman site requires shell
access".? It shouldn't be a requirement that's discovered later.





From mike at writestarr.com  Sun Dec 10 13:17:55 2017
From: mike at writestarr.com (Mike Starr)
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:17:55 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] change links in mail footer to https
In-Reply-To: <515351de-c765-03c4-2233-3f444fb663dc@yahoo.com>
References: <cec7a254-78aa-dbbf-2a92-0d59731f892c@gmail.com>
 <16cc9c9b-37d6-262a-8309-8d22986004d4@msapiro.net>
 <7ac81d24-1cb5-dd44-16d1-bd5165249bd1@aresti.com>
 <a1554322-0dee-03cb-ee40-81d9f582b3f8@msapiro.net>
 <515351de-c765-03c4-2233-3f444fb663dc@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f4133338-830d-88a9-0c93-af5362022159@writestarr.com>

I'm inclined to agree with tlhackque. I'd venture a guess that a large 
percentage (perhaps even a majority) of Mailman users are provided with 
Mailman from their hosting company as the only mailing list tool 
available. The Mailman UI allows them to do the initial configuration 
and management but they're not, in most cases, even aware of python or 
shell script execution. It's completely foreign to them and most likely 
completely beyond their skill sets. They then come to this list for help 
and get told something in a language they don't understand and as this 
thread reveals, many hosting companies are completely uncooperative with 
respect to python and shell execution.

Of course, having monitored this list for several years, I'm totally 
impressed with the skill and knowledge of Mark Sapiro and others, and I 
do understand that Mailman is an open-source program for which (to the 
best of my knowledge) nobody gets paid to maintain. But it would 
certainly be nice is the Mailman UI could be improved to allow users to 
accomplish many of the things they seek help for here without having to 
spend weeks learning how to do python programming or shell script execution.

Best Regards,

Mike
-- 
Mike Starr, Writer
Technical Writer   -    Online Help Developer   -   WordPress Websites
Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - Custom Microsoft Word templates
(262) 694-1028   -  mike at writestarr.com   -  http://www.writestarr.com

On 12/10/2017 11:42 AM, tlhackque via Mailman-Users wrote:
> On 09-Dec-17 14:06, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 12/09/2017 10:40 AM, Chip Davis wrote:
>>> That's all well and good Mark, but surely you know that any fix that
>>> involves issuing a shell command is useless for those of us responsible
>>> for lists on a shared server running cPanel (or equivalent).
>> The OP indicated that he had changed DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN. If he can do
>> that, he can run fix_url.
> That is not necessarily true.
>
> On a cPanel-managed website that I support, the "File manager" provides
> an editor, which allows any text file to be edited.? And you can set 'x'
> permission.? But there is no shell access, and no straightforward way to
> execute a file.? (If you're clever and sufficiently motivated, you can
> setup a temporary cron job or modify some source file.)
>
> I've had similar issues with people using wiki software; in that case,
> the solution was to add a carefully-protected admin option to allow a
> very privileged admin to run a shell command (e.g. system(...)).? As a
> developer, I was not enthusiastic - but it seems that a significant
> number of people are stuck with hosts that don't provide shell access.
> Of course, my first reaction was "change hosting provider" - but there
> were many "I can't" - though the reasons varied.
>
> You might consider adding a super-user menu to allow users to run
> withlist; fix_url; etc without shell access.? Or an admin privilege that
> can be granted to selected list managers.? If not for MM2, for MM3.
>
> If you don't want to support mailman in environments without shell
> access, at a minimum, put a big warning in the install docs that
> "administration and maintenance of a mailman site requires shell
> access".? It shouldn't be a requirement that's discovered later.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/mike%40writestarr.com


From brian at emwd.com  Sun Dec 10 15:19:34 2017
From: brian at emwd.com (Brian Carpenter)
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 15:19:34 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] change links in mail footer to https
In-Reply-To: <f4133338-830d-88a9-0c93-af5362022159@writestarr.com>
References: <cec7a254-78aa-dbbf-2a92-0d59731f892c@gmail.com>
 <16cc9c9b-37d6-262a-8309-8d22986004d4@msapiro.net>
 <7ac81d24-1cb5-dd44-16d1-bd5165249bd1@aresti.com>
 <a1554322-0dee-03cb-ee40-81d9f582b3f8@msapiro.net>
 <515351de-c765-03c4-2233-3f444fb663dc@yahoo.com>
 <f4133338-830d-88a9-0c93-af5362022159@writestarr.com>
Message-ID: <046a01d371f4$31f19070$95d4b150$@emwd.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
> bounces+brian=emwd.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Mike Starr
> Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 1:18 PM
> To: mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] change links in mail footer to https
> 
> I'm inclined to agree with tlhackque. I'd venture a guess that a large
> percentage (perhaps even a majority) of Mailman users are provided with
> Mailman from their hosting company as the only mailing list tool
> available. The Mailman UI allows them to do the initial configuration
> and management but they're not, in most cases, even aware of python or
> shell script execution. It's completely foreign to them and most likely
> completely beyond their skill sets. They then come to this list for help
> and get told something in a language they don't understand and as this
> thread reveals, many hosting companies are completely uncooperative with
> respect to python and shell execution.
> 
> Of course, having monitored this list for several years, I'm totally
> impressed with the skill and knowledge of Mark Sapiro and others, and I
> do understand that Mailman is an open-source program for which (to the
> best of my knowledge) nobody gets paid to maintain. But it would
> certainly be nice is the Mailman UI could be improved to allow users to
> accomplish many of the things they seek help for here without having to
> spend weeks learning how to do python programming or shell script
> execution.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Mike
> --
> Mike Starr, Writer
> Technical Writer   -    Online Help Developer   -   WordPress Websites
> Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - Custom Microsoft Word templates
> (262) 694-1028   -  mike at writestarr.com   -  http://www.writestarr.com
> 
> On 12/10/2017 11:42 AM, tlhackque via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > On 09-Dec-17 14:06, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> >> On 12/09/2017 10:40 AM, Chip Davis wrote:
> >>> That's all well and good Mark, but surely you know that any fix that
> >>> involves issuing a shell command is useless for those of us responsible
> >>> for lists on a shared server running cPanel (or equivalent).
> >> The OP indicated that he had changed DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN. If he can
> do
> >> that, he can run fix_url.
> > That is not necessarily true.
> >
> > On a cPanel-managed website that I support, the "File manager" provides
> > an editor, which allows any text file to be edited.  And you can set 'x'
> > permission.  But there is no shell access, and no straightforward way to
> > execute a file.  (If you're clever and sufficiently motivated, you can
> > setup a temporary cron job or modify some source file.)
> >
> > I've had similar issues with people using wiki software; in that case,
> > the solution was to add a carefully-protected admin option to allow a
> > very privileged admin to run a shell command (e.g. system(...)).  As a
> > developer, I was not enthusiastic - but it seems that a significant
> > number of people are stuck with hosts that don't provide shell access.
> > Of course, my first reaction was "change hosting provider" - but there
> > were many "I can't" - though the reasons varied.
> >
> > You might consider adding a super-user menu to allow users to run
> > withlist; fix_url; etc without shell access.  Or an admin privilege that
> > can be granted to selected list managers.  If not for MM2, for MM3.
> >
> > If you don't want to support mailman in environments without shell
> > access, at a minimum, put a big warning in the install docs that
> > "administration and maintenance of a mailman site requires shell
> > access".  It shouldn't be a requirement that's discovered later.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
> users%40python.org/
> > Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
> users/mike%40writestarr.com
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
> users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
> users/brian%40emwd.com

Well let's not give all hosting providers a black eye. We run all kinds of admin tasks on behalf of our mailman clients. As for using SSL, it is time consuming moving a large number of lists on various domains to use SSL. We run our mailman lists on cPanel servers with the default http setup. Since there is a growing demand for SSL connections we are moving our clients to use SSL. We already offer free SSL certificates so this move fits quite well with that.

The problem with shell access and mailman, is that mailman server changes requires root access and what ever changes are made to the mailman server itself impacts all mailing lists. So those of you who use mailman on a shared hosting environment should never be given shell access to mailman. 

I do not agree that mailman users need or require shell access. What is being asked here in regards to SSL is at this moment a preference not a need. Perhaps the developers of the MM 2.1 branch can add some additional functionality to the mailman list admin interface to turn on or off SSL connections. I know you can do this with WordPress quite easily. Another path is make a feature request with cPanel, Inc. to add some sort of function to add SSL functionality to Mailman lists.


Brian Carpenter
Owner

Providing Cloud and Mailman Services and more for over 15 years.

E: brian at emwd.com
www.emwd.com

 



From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Dec 10 19:24:46 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 16:24:46 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] change links in mail footer to https
In-Reply-To: <046a01d371f4$31f19070$95d4b150$@emwd.com>
References: <cec7a254-78aa-dbbf-2a92-0d59731f892c@gmail.com>
 <16cc9c9b-37d6-262a-8309-8d22986004d4@msapiro.net>
 <7ac81d24-1cb5-dd44-16d1-bd5165249bd1@aresti.com>
 <a1554322-0dee-03cb-ee40-81d9f582b3f8@msapiro.net>
 <515351de-c765-03c4-2233-3f444fb663dc@yahoo.com>
 <f4133338-830d-88a9-0c93-af5362022159@writestarr.com>
 <046a01d371f4$31f19070$95d4b150$@emwd.com>
Message-ID: <f15c9e65-790a-7523-ed96-0672d3b117f3@msapiro.net>

On 12/10/2017 10:17 AM, Mike Starr wrote:
> 
> Of course, having monitored this list for several years, I'm totally
> impressed with the skill and knowledge of Mark Sapiro and others, and I
> do understand that Mailman is an open-source program for which (to the
> best of my knowledge) nobody gets paid to maintain.


Thank you.

And you are correct that no one is paid to maintain Mailman (in the
interest of full disclosure, that may change in a small way for a short
time for one Mailman 3 developer). Also, for the last several years, I
am the only one doing maintenance on Mailman 2.1. I have had a few
contributions from the community which I greatly appreciate, but I am
it, and I too would rather spend all my time on Mailman 3, but I'm still
not (quite) ready to throw Mailman 2.1 support under the bus. There are
still too many users.


>> But it would
>> certainly be nice is the Mailman UI could be improved to allow users to
>> accomplish many of the things they seek help for here without having to
>> spend weeks learning how to do python programming or shell script
>> execution.


If this had been a well thought out feature request even 5 years ago, I
might have done it, and even now, a complete merge proposal might be
accepted, but at this point, I'm not interested in doing this from
scratch. See below for more.


On 12/10/2017 12:19 PM, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> 
> Well let's not give all hosting providers a black eye. We run all kinds of admin tasks on behalf of our mailman clients. As for using SSL, it is time consuming moving a large number of lists on various domains to use SSL. We run our mailman lists on cPanel servers with the default http setup. Since there is a growing demand for SSL connections we are moving our clients to use SSL. We already offer free SSL certificates so this move fits quite well with that.


And Brian's is definitely one of the "very conscientious and
cooperative" cPanel Mailman hosting services I had in mind in my post at
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2017-December/082803.html>.


> The problem with shell access and mailman, is that mailman server changes requires root access and what ever changes are made to the mailman server itself impacts all mailing lists. So those of you who use mailman on a shared hosting environment should never be given shell access to mailman. 


And this is a real problem and one that I think should be addressed by
cPanel, not me.

The Mailman developers see Mailman as software that requires server
admin access to install and configure. cPanel changes that at some level
so they should go all the way and give the end user the ability through
the control panel to make the changes in a way that doesn't affect other
users on a shared host. I had a conversation several years ago at PyCon
about access to Mailman's logs in some way that could allow a cPanel
domain admin to access only log info for their domain, but that didn't
get anywhere.

The Mailman development team has also had contact with cPanel, and
cPanel is interested in Mailman remaining viable and in offering Mailman
3, and they do support us by providing the server that supports our CI
environment in GitLab where we develop Mailman 3, and we are very
appreciative of that. They are, however, only able to provide money or
hardware resources, not actual development.

Note that with this specific issue, I could expose a list's web_page_url
in the web admin UI, but that wouldn't solve the problem. As Brian
indicates, making Mailman use https involve more than that. It also
requires certificates and web server configuration, and while I don't
know, I suspect these things require a server admin, even on cPanel.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From tlhackque at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 10 20:27:38 2017
From: tlhackque at yahoo.com (tlhackque)
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:27:38 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] change links in mail footer to https
In-Reply-To: <f15c9e65-790a-7523-ed96-0672d3b117f3@msapiro.net>
References: <cec7a254-78aa-dbbf-2a92-0d59731f892c@gmail.com>
 <16cc9c9b-37d6-262a-8309-8d22986004d4@msapiro.net>
 <7ac81d24-1cb5-dd44-16d1-bd5165249bd1@aresti.com>
 <a1554322-0dee-03cb-ee40-81d9f582b3f8@msapiro.net>
 <515351de-c765-03c4-2233-3f444fb663dc@yahoo.com>
 <f4133338-830d-88a9-0c93-af5362022159@writestarr.com>
 <046a01d371f4$31f19070$95d4b150$@emwd.com>
 <f15c9e65-790a-7523-ed96-0672d3b117f3@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <87210119-7ec2-b199-cfdf-7ea39810ff00@yahoo.com>


On 10-Dec-17 19:24, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
> Note that with this specific issue, I could expose a list's web_page_url
> in the web admin UI, but that wouldn't solve the problem. As Brian
> indicates, making Mailman use https involve more than that. It also
> requires certificates and web server configuration, and while I don't
> know, I suspect these things require a server admin, even on cPanel.
>

I'm not going to claim cPanel expertise - but in my experience a cPanel
admin can allow server admins access to SSL/TLS configuration.? Once I
had that enabled, I was able to just paste certificates/keys into the
cPanel UI, and apache is reconfigured behind the scenes.? It's pretty
good about decoding the certificate and telling you what it covers and
when it's valid.? I have heard that there's a let'sEncrypt module for
cPanel (my provider doesn't have it yet).

So the missing piece for allowing a MM admin to convert to (or from)
https is 'just' the web admin UI - and some documentation.? (Note: I
don't run Mailman under cPanel, so I don't know what else there may be.)

Of course MM is mostly a volunteer effort, and MM2.1 is on the back
burner.? Didn't mean to imply otherwise.

As I noted, whether or not the web admin UI is improved for 2.1, it
should be done for 3.

And the doc should clearly indicate that shell access is (currently) a
requirement post-install.? Apparently, cPanel does some
packaging/wrapping of Mailman - which I can't speak to.? But there
should be no need for root access for a private Mailman instance running
from a user directory.? Mailman does not run under root.? If you choose
to run mailing lists for multiple administrative domains under a single
instance, you would need access to the instance's mailman user.? And
that could be undesirable and/or complicated.?

Off the top of my head, the only system file access required for MM2.1
is to /etc/aliases -- presumably, the cPanel wrapper takes care of
updating it (and running newaliases) as lists are created/destroyed.? As
I said, the best solution is to provide all the MM admin functions from
the web admin UI.? (There are quite a few in mailman/bin.)? Not just for
this, but because as time passes, fewer mailing list admins are
comfortable at the command line.

Speaking of WordPress - I do run it in a cPanel -managed host.? WP is a
completely private install.? My VirtualHost has a complete copy of
WordPress in my_username/public_html - nothing is stored in a system
directory.? And no root access is required.? From a hosting provider's
point of view, this isn't as efficient as a shared install.? But they
can charge for the disk space and network/computes used to update each
instance, so it works out.? I don't see why Mailman couldn't be packaged
the same way.? TLS is configured by editing the WP config file for each
instance (using the cPanel editor that I mentioned).? And certificates
are installed for the VirtualHost using cPanel->Security->SSL/TLS.?
(There are also plugins for getting certificates from various CAs.)

Finally, I never said "all shared hosting providers are bad".? I said
"many don't provide shell access", and that Mailman currently requires
it for a number of post-install admin operations.? It would be good if
those requirements could be reduced.? If someone has the
need/inclination/energy.

But this has gone rather far afield.? I don't have this particular
problem, so I'm going to leave this here.? I hope these notes help those
who do.



From charles at stremen.xs4all.nl  Mon Dec 11 10:27:56 2017
From: charles at stremen.xs4all.nl (Charles Stroom)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 16:27:56 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] no "pending moderator requests" email warnings
 anymore
Message-ID: <20171211162756.4d7d627d@fiume5.localnet>

Hi,

I have used mailman for many years to maintain a small distribution
list for a group of musical instrument makers, called "dehoutblazers".
It has been transferred a couple of times and runs now on a Linux
Opensuse Leap 42.2 server which distributed Mailman 2.1.22.  The list
is purely used via email (no web site), but I do use the
administrative tasks via the web site.

Since a couple of weeks (or maybe longer) there is a problem with
the "attend to pending tasks", for intercepted emails which are
not going through because of the criteria (non-member email, too
large, etc.) I used to receive a message of the mailman, but I am
not getting such messages anymore.  I have been trying to find out
why, but have so far failed.

I tested also some email mailman addresses with the following results.

- the mail list itself works as it should.
My conclusion is that the aliases file is found and used.

- if I send an email to "listname"-request, I get proper replies.

- if I send to "listname"-admin, I do not receive that email, but
instead an email from mailman-bounce to "listname"-owner with my
email attached.

""
From: mailman-bounces at stremen.xs4all.nl
To: dehoutblazers-owner at stremen.xs4all.nl
Subject: Uncaught bounce notification
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 15:24:13 +0100
Sender: "dehoutblazers" <mailman-bounces at stremen.xs4all.nl>

The attached message was received as a bounce, but either the bounce
format was not recognised, or no member addresses could be extracted
from it.  This mailing list has been configured to send all
unrecognised bounce messages to the list administrator(s).

For more information see:
http://stremen.xs4all.nl/mailman/admin/dehoutblazers/bounce


From: Charles Stroom <charles at stremen.xs4all.nl>
To: dehoutblazers-admin at stremen.xs4all.nl
Subject: email test
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 15:24:07 +0100
X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.12.0 (GTK+ 2.24.31; x86_64-suse-linux-gnu)

no content
""
And in the standard mail log of the server I get
""
postfix/smtpd[3689]: connect from bsmtpdelivery7.xs4all.net[194.109.127.156]
postfix/smtpd[3689]: C774F216C: client=bsmtpdelivery7.xs4all.net[194.109.127.156]
postfix/cleanup[3693]: C774F216C: message-id=<20171211152407.1611b8b4 at fiume5.localnet>
postfix/qmgr[2642]: C774F216C: from=<charles at stremen.xs4all.nl>, size=1444, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
postfix/smtpd[3689]: disconnect from bsmtpdelivery7.xs4all.net[194.109.127.156]
postfix/local[3694]: C774F216C: to=<dehoutblazers-admin at stremen.xs4all.nl>, relay=local, delay=0.35, delays=0.13/0.01/0/0.21, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command: /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman admin dehoutblazers)
postfix/qmgr[2642]: C774F216C: removed
postfix/smtpd[3689]: connect from localhost[::1]
postfix/smtpd[3689]: C36FC216C: client=localhost[::1]
postfix/cleanup[3693]: C36FC216C: message-id=<mailman.0.1513002253.2882.dehoutblazers at stremen.xs4all.nl>
postfix/qmgr[2642]: C36FC216C: from=<mailman-bounces at stremen.xs4all.nl>, size=3058, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
postfix/smtpd[3689]: disconnect from localhost[::1]
postfix/local[3694]: C36FC216C: to=<charles at stremen.xs4all.nl>, relay=local, delay=0.06, delays=0.02/0/0/0.04, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to mailbox)
postfix/qmgr[2642]: C36FC216C: removed
""

- if I send to "listname"-owner, I do not receive any email at all,
as if the email has been delivered to /dev/null.  And in the
standard mail log of the server I get:
""
postfix/smtpd[3880]: connect from bsmtpdelivery6.xs4all.net[194.109.127.155]
postfix/smtpd[3880]: 3814C216C: client=bsmtpdelivery6.xs4all.net[194.109.127.155]
postfix/cleanup[3884]: 3814C216C: message-id=<20171211153550.7fb31e1d at fiume5.localnet>
postfix/qmgr[2642]: 3814C216C: from=<charles at stremen.xs4all.nl>, size=1455, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
postfix/smtpd[3880]: disconnect from bsmtpdelivery6.xs4all.net[194.109.127.155]
postfix/local[3885]: 3814C216C: to=<dehoutblazers-owner at stremen.xs4all.nl>, relay=local, delay=0.36, delays=0.13/0.01/0/0.22, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command: /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner dehoutblazers)
postfix/qmgr[2642]: 3814C216C: removed
postfix/smtpd[3880]: connect from localhost[::1]
postfix/smtpd[3880]: warning: Illegal address syntax from localhost[::1] in MAIL command: <mailman-bounces@>
postfix/smtpd[3880]: disconnect from localhost[::1]
""

There are pending pending moderator requests in the list
so I tried a manual cron command (as user "mailman"):
""
/usr/bin/python -S /usr/lib/mailman/cron/checkdbs
""
Nothing happened, the offending emails are not removed, and I did
not receive any email.   With the mail log below
""
postfix/smtpd[4025]: connect from localhost[::1]
postfix/smtpd[4025]: 1AC17216C: client=localhost[::1]
postfix/cleanup[4028]: 1AC17216C: message-id=<mailman.0.1513003270.4024.dehoutblazers at stremen.xs4all.nl>
postfix/qmgr[2642]: 1AC17216C: from=<dehoutblazers-bounces at stremen.xs4all.nl>, size=1500, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
postfix/smtpd[4025]: disconnect from localhost[::1]
postfix/local[4029]: 1AC17216C: to=<dehoutblazers-owner at stremen.xs4all.nl>, relay=local, delay=0.22, delays=0.03/0.01/0/0.18, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command: /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner dehoutblazers)
postfix/qmgr[2642]: 1AC17216C: removed
postfix/smtpd[4025]: connect from localhost[::1]
postfix/smtpd[4025]: warning: Illegal address syntax from localhost[::1] in MAIL command: <mailman-bounces@>
2017-12-11T15:41:13.195034+01:00 stremen6 postfix/smtpd[4025]: disconnect from localhost[::1]
""

Apparently, the is something wrong with the email message sender
or recipient as formatted by mailman, but to me everything seems OK.
I am the owner and the moderator.

Is there a way to see what mailman is actually transferring to
the postfix program?

I should add that at about the same time I have added a second
mailing list, which behaves similarly.  I am not sure the
erroneous behaviour occurred before, due to, or after that
introduction.  Any help would be appreciated.

Regards,

Charles





-- 
Charles Stroom
email: charles at no-spam.stremen.xs4all.nl (remove the "no-spam.")

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 12 00:25:42 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 21:25:42 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] no "pending moderator requests" email warnings
 anymore
In-Reply-To: <20171211162756.4d7d627d@fiume5.localnet>
References: <20171211162756.4d7d627d@fiume5.localnet>
Message-ID: <a52e1092-2ad0-2e2e-48ac-5d1b22abcf32@msapiro.net>

On 12/11/2017 07:27 AM, Charles Stroom wrote:
> 
> Since a couple of weeks (or maybe longer) there is a problem with
> the "attend to pending tasks", for intercepted emails which are
> not going through because of the criteria (non-member email, too
> large, etc.) I used to receive a message of the mailman, but I am
> not getting such messages anymore.  I have been trying to find out
> why, but have so far failed.
> 
> I tested also some email mailman addresses with the following results.
> 
...
> - if I send to "listname"-admin, I do not receive that email, but
> instead an email from mailman-bounce to "listname"-owner with my
> email attached.


This is because "listname"-admin is a deprecated alias for
"listname"-bounces, however the fact that the unrecognized bounce notice
appears to be To: the "listname"-owner address is misleading because it
is actually sent directly to the list owner(s)


> - if I send to "listname"-owner, I do not receive any email at all,
> as if the email has been delivered to /dev/null.


And this is the issue because the daily pending requests email is sent
to "listname"-owner to be resent to the owners and moderators.


>  And in the
> standard mail log of the server I get:
> ""
> postfix/smtpd[3880]: connect from bsmtpdelivery6.xs4all.net[194.109.127.155]
> postfix/smtpd[3880]: 3814C216C: client=bsmtpdelivery6.xs4all.net[194.109.127.155]
> postfix/cleanup[3884]: 3814C216C: message-id=<20171211153550.7fb31e1d at fiume5.localnet>
> postfix/qmgr[2642]: 3814C216C: from=<charles at stremen.xs4all.nl>, size=1455, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
> postfix/smtpd[3880]: disconnect from bsmtpdelivery6.xs4all.net[194.109.127.155]
> postfix/local[3885]: 3814C216C: to=<dehoutblazers-owner at stremen.xs4all.nl>, relay=local, delay=0.36, delays=0.13/0.01/0/0.22, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command: /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner dehoutblazers)
> postfix/qmgr[2642]: 3814C216C: removed

So the mail to -owner is delivered properly to Mailman.


> postfix/smtpd[3880]: connect from localhost[::1]
> postfix/smtpd[3880]: warning: Illegal address syntax from localhost[::1] in MAIL command: <mailman-bounces@>
> postfix/smtpd[3880]: disconnect from localhost[::1]
> ""


So the issue here appears to be the smtp MAIL FROM command is from
<mailman-bounces@> instead of from <mailman-bounces at stremen.xs4all.nl>


> There are pending pending moderator requests in the list
> so I tried a manual cron command (as user "mailman"):
> ""
> /usr/bin/python -S /usr/lib/mailman/cron/checkdbs
> ""
> Nothing happened, the offending emails are not removed, and I did
> not receive any email.


You didn't receive mail because mail to "listname"-owner doesnb't work,
and cron/checkdbs never does anything with pending moderator requests
other than report them.


> With the mail log below


Which is the same issue as above.


> Apparently, the is something wrong with the email message sender
> or recipient as formatted by mailman, but to me everything seems OK.
> I am the owner and the moderator.
> 
> Is there a way to see what mailman is actually transferring to
> the postfix program?


See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030716> for a way to enable vastly
increased SMTP logging.

However, the issue appears to be that
Utils.get_site_email(extra='bounces') is returning 'mailman-bounces@'

This can occur if your settings for DEFAULT_URL_HOST,
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST, and add_virtualhost() directives in mm_cfg.py are
broken in some way. In particular, if you have some add_virtualhost()
directive with a null string as the second argument.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From charles at stremen.xs4all.nl  Tue Dec 12 18:17:51 2017
From: charles at stremen.xs4all.nl (Charles Stroom)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 00:17:51 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] no "pending moderator requests" email warnings
 anymore
In-Reply-To: <a52e1092-2ad0-2e2e-48ac-5d1b22abcf32@msapiro.net>
References: <20171211162756.4d7d627d@fiume5.localnet>
 <a52e1092-2ad0-2e2e-48ac-5d1b22abcf32@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20171213001751.52140871@fiume5.localnet>

On Mon, 11 Dec 2017 21:25:42 -0800
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> 
> So the mail to -owner is delivered properly to Mailman.
> 
> 
> > postfix/smtpd[3880]: connect from localhost[::1]
> > postfix/smtpd[3880]: warning: Illegal address syntax from
> > localhost[::1] in MAIL command: <mailman-bounces@>
> > postfix/smtpd[3880]: disconnect from localhost[::1] ""
> 
> 
> So the issue here appears to be the smtp MAIL FROM command is from
> <mailman-bounces@> instead of from <mailman-bounces at stremen.xs4all.nl>

I didn't notice this "mailman-bounces@" error. 
 
> 
> See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030716> for a way to enable vastly
> increased SMTP logging.
> 
> However, the issue appears to be that
> Utils.get_site_email(extra='bounces') is returning 'mailman-bounces@'
> 
> This can occur if your settings for DEFAULT_URL_HOST,
> DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST, and add_virtualhost() directives in mm_cfg.py are
> broken in some way. In particular, if you have some add_virtualhost()
> directive with a null string as the second argument.
> 
I will look into more details.  These 2 variables are setup in an
Opensuse sysconfig file.  Maybe I did something wrong when adding a new
mailing list recently, destroying something.

I checked the date of all files under /usr/lib/mailman but except 2
(the crontab and crontab.in files which have time modifications), they
all have the same old 2016 timestamp.  They are apparently unchanged.

Thanks,

Charles

-- 
Charles Stroom
email: charles at no-spam.stremen.xs4all.nl (remove the "no-spam.")

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 12 18:39:22 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 15:39:22 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] no "pending moderator requests" email warnings
 anymore
In-Reply-To: <20171213001751.52140871@fiume5.localnet>
References: <20171211162756.4d7d627d@fiume5.localnet>
 <a52e1092-2ad0-2e2e-48ac-5d1b22abcf32@msapiro.net>
 <20171213001751.52140871@fiume5.localnet>
Message-ID: <48748ff8-1821-c9ee-89a8-30d0e0309c2d@msapiro.net>

On 12/12/2017 03:17 PM, Charles Stroom wrote:
> 
> I checked the date of all files under /usr/lib/mailman but except 2
> (the crontab and crontab.in files which have time modifications), they
> all have the same old 2016 timestamp.  They are apparently unchanged.


The file you want to look at is mm_cfg.py. Looking at
<https://en.opensuse.org/Mailman> it seems it is
/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py and gets built by "SuSEconfig -module
mailman" based on things in /etc/sysconfig/mailman. If that file
contains a non-null value for MAILMAN_DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST, I suspect the
issue has to do with the setting in that file for MAILMAN_VIRTUAL_HOSTS,
although I don't know what the correct format for this is.

Note that adding a new list per se should not change anything in
mm_cfg.py, so if it hasn't changed, I don't know what the issue is, but
if you post the contents of both /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py and
/etc/sysconfig/mailman, I might be able to see something.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From charles at stremen.xs4all.nl  Wed Dec 13 06:22:54 2017
From: charles at stremen.xs4all.nl (Charles Stroom)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 12:22:54 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] no "pending moderator requests" email warnings
 anymore
In-Reply-To: <48748ff8-1821-c9ee-89a8-30d0e0309c2d@msapiro.net>
References: <20171211162756.4d7d627d@fiume5.localnet>
 <a52e1092-2ad0-2e2e-48ac-5d1b22abcf32@msapiro.net>
 <20171213001751.52140871@fiume5.localnet>
 <48748ff8-1821-c9ee-89a8-30d0e0309c2d@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20171213122254.189d730d@fiume5.localnet>

On Tue, 12 Dec 2017 15:39:22 -0800
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 12/12/2017 03:17 PM, Charles Stroom wrote:
> > 
> > I checked the date of all files under /usr/lib/mailman but except 2
> > (the crontab and crontab.in files which have time modifications),
> > they all have the same old 2016 timestamp.  They are apparently
> > unchanged.
> 
> 
> The file you want to look at is mm_cfg.py. Looking at
> <https://en.opensuse.org/Mailman> it seems it is
> /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py and gets built by "SuSEconfig
> -module mailman" based on things in /etc/sysconfig/mailman. If that
> file contains a non-null value for MAILMAN_DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST, I
> suspect the issue has to do with the setting in that file for
> MAILMAN_VIRTUAL_HOSTS, although I don't know what the correct format
> for this is.
> 
> Note that adding a new list per se should not change anything in
> mm_cfg.py, so if it hasn't changed, I don't know what the issue is,
> but if you post the contents of
> both /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py and /etc/sysconfig/mailman, I
> might be able to see something.

The new list was indeed a red herring.  It probably hasn't been working
correctly since the lists were moved to a new PC mid 2016.
/etc/sysconfig/mailman looked OK, but the "SuSEconfig module mailman"
was never executed.  Then I used
/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailman-generate-sysconfig to regenerate
/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py and compared the new with the old,
and ALL variable settings were missing in the old version.

I did a few tests, including the
/usr/bin/python -S /usr/lib/mailman/cron/checkdbs
and I got my warning mail.

Many thanks,

Charles


  
-- 
Charles Stroom
email: charles at no-spam.stremen.xs4all.nl (remove the "no-spam.")

From brent.sowers at yale.edu  Fri Dec 15 09:10:41 2017
From: brent.sowers at yale.edu (Sowers, Brent)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 14:10:41 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] admindb functionality not working 2.2.15 on RHEL
Message-ID: <BN6PR08MB3490109232E46CED65DC3A39FF0B0@BN6PR08MB3490.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

I'm in the process of migrating to a new server and the remaining issue I've run into is none of the admindb functionality is working on lists I've created to test the new server.

The old server is running 2.1.6, the new is running 2.1.15 from an RPM install.

I have 2 subscription requests that won't process, approve doesn't add them to the list, reject doesn't generate an email, likewise defer and discard have no impact either.
I did some research and saw that a patch was introduced in 2002 for something similar and confirmed that the code change is present in my admindb.py file.

I have one email in the pending list which I can't process either.

The old server has ownership set for apache:mailman on select pyc files in the Mailman/Cgi directory so I changed the files on the new server to have the same ownership and permissions (rw-rw----) but it didn't resolve the problem.

Regards,
Brent Sowers
203.432.5840


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Dec 15 14:51:47 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 11:51:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] admindb functionality not working 2.2.15 on RHEL
In-Reply-To: <BN6PR08MB3490109232E46CED65DC3A39FF0B0@BN6PR08MB3490.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BN6PR08MB3490109232E46CED65DC3A39FF0B0@BN6PR08MB3490.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <70e18e72-5f86-04d7-755e-c7a8a63cc4f0@msapiro.net>

On 12/15/2017 06:10 AM, Sowers, Brent wrote:
> I'm in the process of migrating to a new server and the remaining issue I've run into is none of the admindb functionality is working on lists I've created to test the new server.
> 
> The old server is running 2.1.6, the new is running 2.1.15 from an RPM install.
> 
> I have 2 subscription requests that won't process, approve doesn't add them to the list, reject doesn't generate an email, likewise defer and discard have no impact either.


If they remain in the admindb interface, see
<https://wiki.list.org/x/4030602>. If not, what happens? If you see the
"we hit a bug" page, what's in Mailman's error log (/var/log/mailman/error)?


> I did some research and saw that a patch was introduced in 2002 for something similar and confirmed that the code change is present in my admindb.py file.


I'm curious as to what you are referring to, particularly since
Cgi/admindb.py didn't exist prior to Mailman 2.1 in 2003.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From johnf at net2000.com.au  Mon Dec 18 19:42:27 2017
From: johnf at net2000.com.au (John Fitzsimons)
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 11:42:27 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rejecting all addresses from a particular domain ?
Message-ID: <3lmg3dl280j595596tst5ul9qggan1le1a@4ax.com>



Hi, thanks to the Mailman FAQ I have a fairly good idea how to do the
following BUT I am not very familiar with regexp. Could someone here
help me with the exact syntax please ?

I want to automatically discard all non-subscribers who attempt to
subscribe from the .ua domain (Ukraine ?)

In other words, what do I put in "List of non-member addresses whose
postings will be automatically discarded" ?


Regards, John.


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 19 01:14:05 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 22:14:05 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rejecting all addresses from a particular
 domain ?
In-Reply-To: <3lmg3dl280j595596tst5ul9qggan1le1a@4ax.com>
References: <3lmg3dl280j595596tst5ul9qggan1le1a@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <116d8ad6-276c-65d4-88e0-162a9cd19b13@msapiro.net>

On 12/18/2017 04:42 PM, John Fitzsimons wrote:
> 
> I want to automatically discard all non-subscribers who attempt to
> subscribe from the .ua domain (Ukraine ?)
> 
> In other words, what do I put in "List of non-member addresses whose
> postings will be automatically discarded" ?


Do you want to prevent subscription or just discard attempted posts?

The regexp you want is

^.*\.ua$

which will match any address ending in '.ua'. If you put that in
discard_these_monmembers (List of non-member addresses whose postings
will be automatically discarded.), that will automatically discard any
list post from a nonmember address that ends with .ua, but it will do
nothing about attempted subscriptions.

To prevent such addresses from subscribing, put the same regexp in
Privacy options... -> Subscription rules -> ban_list (List of addresses
which are banned from membership in this mailing list.)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From runner at winning.com  Tue Dec 19 17:53:20 2017
From: runner at winning.com (Runner)
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 23:53:20 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I have Google recaptcha V2 working on mailman 2.1.23
Message-ID: <trinity-96f536d4-5fcb-4be7-b929-67840529a4d1-1513724000935@3c-app-mailcom-lxa16>

I am running mailman version 2.1.23.  A while back I configured google?s recaptcha v1 on a mailman server to stop subscription abuse.  I used the instructions provided here: https://www.dragonsreach.it/2014/05/03/adding-recaptcha-support-to-mailman/

Google announced that recaptcha v1 will end sometime in March 2018.  I could not find any instructions for implementing recaptcha v2 with mailman so I took a deep dive into what was required.  I set up a test Ubuntu 16.04 server and figured it out.  I have no python programming experience so some aspects of this process do not follow best practices.  If any of you are experienced at python programming and you have the time, I would appreciate it if you would provide some guidance on how to improve these instructions.  There are two areas that need cleaning up.  The first one is how to install requisite python modules so they are all located in one nice neat location.  In my instructions below I had to add five sys.path.append statements so python could find the extra python modules. This is sloppy.  Second, I do not know how to reference a variable from inside a web page template where the variable is defined in mm_cfg.py.  For now I just hard coded it but it?s not elegant.  These two question are python issues and not really mailman issues.  

So, for those of you who are running mailman v 2.1.23 (or something close) and you want to enable Google recaptcha v2, here is what I did:

Environment
Ubuntu 16.04
Mailman 2.1.23
Python 2.7.12

*** Install prerequisite python modules ***
The server I tested with was a basic Ubuntu 16.04 install.  I had to manually install the following software:
sudo apt-get install python-dnspython
sudo apt-get install python-distutils-extra
sudo apt-get install python-setuptools
sudo apt-get install python-dev
sudo apt-get install build-essential
sudo apt-get install python-requests
Manually install these python modules using the command "python setup.py install" inside the source code directory:
orderedmultidict
furl
recaptcha2 ( available at https://pypi.python.org/pypi/recaptcha2/0.1 )



*** Modify the listinfo.html file located at MAILMAN_HOME/templates/en/listinfo.html (assuming you are using English) ***
Locate the </HEAD> tag and add this line above it:
<script src='https://www.google.com/recaptcha/api.js'></script>

Locate the <mm-digest-question-end> tag and add the following lines below it:
<tr>
    <td BGCOLOR="#dddddd">Please fill out the following captcha</td>
    <td><div class="g-recaptcha" data-sitekey="ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ1234567890"></div></td>
</tr>

NOTE:  Use your own google public key for data-sitekey above.  The better way to do this would be to add your public key to mm_cfg.py and reference that variable inside this file.  When I have more  time I will figure out how to do this and update the directions.



*** Add your google recaptcha public and private keys to MAILMAN_HOME/Mailman/mm_cfg.py ***
Append them to the end of the file:
PUBLIC_KEY = "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ1234567890"
PRIVATE_KEY = "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ1234567890"



*** Edit the file MAILMAN_HOME/Mailman/Cgi/subscribe.py ***
We are going to add three pieces of information to this file: 1) The paths to the additional python modules you installed 2) import commands for two modules and 3) the code to check the recaptcha result. 

Concerning item 1) I manually appended the location of all the modules using sys.path.append.  A better way to do this would be to install the modules in one directory where python can find them.  I've never worked with python before so I didn't know how to do this.  I will take some time later to figure this out and simplify the install instructions MAYBE.  In the file subscribe.py, locate the end of the paragraph that contains all the "from Mailman import" commands.  In version 2.1.23 this is line 34.  After line 34 add all the paths to the extra modules.  Here is what I had for my Ubuntu 16.04 server:

sys.path.append("/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/recaptcha2-0.1-py2.7.egg")
sys.path.append("/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages")
sys.path.append("/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/furl-1.0.1-py2.7.egg")
sys.path.append("/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/orderedmultidict-0.7.11-py2.7.egg")
sys.path.append("/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests-2.9.1.egg-info")

Concerning item 2) immediately after the sys.path.append lines you just added, add these import commands:
import requests
import recaptcha2

Concerning item 3) this is the last step.  Locate the line that reads "# Was an attempt made to subscribe the list to itself?"  This should be somewhere around line 188 assuming you've added the above lines already.  Directly above this line add the following code:

# Google recaptcha v2
captcha_result = recaptcha2.verify(
    mm_cfg.SECRET_KEY,
    cgidata.getvalue('g-recaptcha-response', ""),
    os.environ.get('REMOTE_ADDR')
)
if not captcha_result['success']:
    results.append(_('Invalid captcha'))

That?s all.  I have tested this in a development environment and it appears to work as expected.

From james at dorydesign.com  Thu Dec 21 18:14:44 2017
From: james at dorydesign.com (Jim Dory)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 14:14:44 -0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo problems again
Message-ID: <CAKhfoy3fGUUo_rLMXJ7wCpyskR9frztGdWwaQSj2JEQ_1F8F4w@mail.gmail.com>

I'm running a CPanel version of mailman.
I've been seeing a lot of the following errors of mostly yahoo.com users
but a few other providers as well.

"---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mail Delivery System <Mailer-Daemon at server.nomekennelclub.com>
To: nome-announce-bounces at nomekennelclub.com
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 17:22:05 +0000
Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.

A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:

 xxxx at yahoo.com
    host mta7.am0.yahoodns.net [98.137.159.27]
    SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
    554 delivery error: dd Requested mail action aborted -
mta4357.mail.ne1.yahoo.com

Action: failed
Final-Recipient: rfc822;xxx at yahoo.com
Status: 5.0.0
Remote-MTA: dns; mta7.am0.yahoodns.net
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 554 delivery error: dd Requested mail action aborted
- mta4357.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
"

followed by a forwarded message that had been sent to the list by another
user.
-which I don't know how to deal with. And also, I just had a yahoo user try
to send something to the list and he was completely blocked:

"From: Mail Delivery System <Mailer-Daemon at server.nomekennelclub.com>
Date: December 21, 2017 at 10:55:27 AM AKST
To: yyyy at yahoo.com
Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender

This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.

A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:

me at dorydesign.com
   (generated from nomeannounce at nomekennelclub.com)
   host mx1.arandomserver.com [208.43.240.3]
   SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
   550 High probability of spam


Action: failed
Final-Recipient: rfc822;me at dorydesign.com
Status: 5.0.0
Remote-MTA: dns; mx1.arandomserver.com
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 High probability of spam
"

The attached mime from that message was this (I've tried to obscure the
email addresses in these examples):

Return-path: <yyyy at yahoo.com>
Received: from se001.arandomserver.com ([207.210.220.219]:42974)
by server.nomekennelclub.com with esmtps
(TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256)
(Exim 4.89_1)
(envelope-from <yyyy at yahoo.com>)
id 1eS6w8-0005XI-5V
for nomeannounce at nomekennelclub.com; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 19:55:24 +0000
Received: from sonic306-2.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.132.41])
by se001.arandomserver.com with esmtps
(TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128)
(Exim 4.89)
(envelope-from <yyyy at yahoo.com>)
id 1eS6vT-0006g3-7Y
for nomeannounce at nomekennelclub.com; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 13:54:43 -0600
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048;
t=1513886082; bh=oAG+Vx42je2VW+88C4FZSQH+Yw6Qb4GSG+M2O1+tDyc=;
h=From:Subject:Date:To:From:Subject;
b=Xcfo3BhyCiYF0RUBYPratRWoint9KVpgawUavGEI41YTWaESeLOyfRCAlFrNuVMbrNUKM8aAo49oYN9VlKqYjGY7oqHoZa1hEm8MsxW2K7x73NoiUIjShUvfCA6IrNqEHz3h2HtoJGC27nF5JP9AqVjroXOy9f7AIugKL0sWlH1Duz3d0MKFmeg6BNRHp4HliFb8zbvey/8zAuVoE8Unh1rZp2zY1DQYEwQqg4HcFlzY6P9ZaAzkMWF692PIa7JSz1gD2zw0BWhi1MQOlRigWsMkOJBK0ia2QRTDgzRMsdQ1zc/iOi16YXUIVddPvRuNjk2prx2ojrdZiQeD9jZ/ww==
X-YMail-OSG: uvH4Z2EVM1kqMXtalwJ6oTN1d5zS2x6GWBYuwiJt9FyjfYi0ji89oNPJ78BmCkW
 PfZgicNYSHDBf2svIrXgPXOTBZt6zMqTngoNNyPlVb38SVZdf5MHcMDpVFHrRTZ.e0bMy4SS2jCZ
 VNrnPuskvvg5TaAw39nxkWuQLNPhVVix6kT_o4Nn5fNGPn1WFbC3CJAlJvWs0.Re6ZwrmdhIqZzs
 _8sg4YH3gBSS4i9oVcuAOsrI_bqZwH56KnE8_ICkPS9d9y3uRFBOriBOiKQYdNKve8AKBBWFSjJi
 b.Z._BNpLNrz1LGAD_paOegr8hvOvWBUrwee5bsfXuY0tOpe96R.PtbLlRmKM_9H8D0W3OsC3R0k
 L7ts11xugZRbxsOlJt8wQqsBOsdVN9AREERluLjuYt6Yu9GumXYjHVb7cUH_Hl5xwFLHQ6AfpVXV
 IgCJohmz2iU1paZD0vg0ARqlxHF5qtNJZ82qDfjRtDCGIkS56rv35.1LvqIzIW1aMgn8BQECi6XV
 dp_6S
Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by
sonic306.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 19:54:42
+0000
Received: from smtp127-mob.biz.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (EHLO [10.126.186.15])
([98.139.172.251])
          by smtp408.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (JAMES SMTP Server ) with ESMTPA ID
52a4c2265a6e8c2eb991fbaec30e880c
          for <nomeannounce at nomekennelclub.com>;
          Thu, 21 Dec 2017 19:54:39 +0000 (UTC)
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii
From: Timothy Smith <yyyy at yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Subject: Looking for old snowplow
Message-Id: <72E67804-9C39-4648-B54A-355A1CD91A83 at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 10:54:36 -0900
To: nomeannounce at nomekennelclub.com
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14G60)
Received-SPF: pass (se001.arandomserver.com: domain of yahoo.com designates
74.6.132.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.6.132.41; envelope-from=
yyyy at yahoo.com; helo=sonic306-2.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com;
X-SPF-Result: se001.arandomserver.com: domain of yahoo.com designates
74.6.132.41 as permitted sender
Authentication-Results: se001.arandomserver.com; dmarc=pass header.from=
yahoo.com
Authentication-Results:  arandomserver.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=
yyyy at yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=yahoo.com
X-SpamExperts-Class: whitelisted
X-SpamExperts-Evidence: sender
X-Recommended-Action: accept
X-Filter-ID:
PqwsvolAWURa0gwxuN3S5dbLZBtEelHx626yyIFROGBoq7PC935D5gVVZdRAS4cpe2lzoh2cHLtu
 1SqMOIQTJhg2bPqsF3NKVeRdIq6+m8hAMDzeDPgTbattB4dzugM/GAAHuU7Kix/q2NhXWYORrd1x
 l5D7ORax3H8jyTz96hP+lczXWRsecrL6KZmV4jaidG5gGLSgW4Bn/5M0JETfQd7usy1SiXvhjHr/
 TSF/Xh+FcqCQR+qeCjyt4VgXy9au/V2g4NFXKjiWEq6AptiBOZ0DJh9EsOc01tOOj/R6OcliBP5d
 I2uVKl4iqs7slFv2rNU9pgrR2527oymQ/UGyCfdQO3rhq0nW47cN5z+mpmD4G4szLADW4wW12QfH
 F7cITI2it2spocGAwh4WoxJReeWBOXp8nHKe0R+FkIqN7hnb2h17GFq7RyA5TlS+SepcaldRuW5H
 Z5VCz3oI8G6gg5uymjpsIKEGfL1NrbMEQvkYAAe5TsqLH+rY2FdZg5Gt3XGXkPs5FrHcfyPJPP3q
 E/n1AS6Vvbdi/Ytm8JblH86XTVJp/Vp1c6oRqL12g/4d+n4K/vAYO0wLn77ziAlxt3ZAfdGUK6xm
 xt3uoWu7latyV9A8fT7KxsMfMjFtkNpsOi+G2wty43cRSQ8qLbbzwKE/uv+p4Jwt80+TCbaU2ezd
 u108kaQJKXxbTO451NNAah/EURL1xtLvrMfFXIdIhByeP3kMF/HM2qi7bXBmBn9TEFgSWr/NHmgi
 bYOxhTAHAGpU1KrPVLcYGHrgyo25Xfvg7iEFLP+SSY+Av5+AiC5DA8QlLMss9wAh0997AWd7Poec
 lVMMg4omr0qmP8EG27tPLjMU/DCffyE9gEZuU8cySBvQ55du5dUCC09Y9ZczQ9OVVyXpqvfcPEJW
 mcaNuHQgpgHO7UCv07taZADhvKZIv0iLmzKdXyIb0q0eJBBHDdjre9h1YQfOlkxOVd0feQ==
X-Report-Abuse-To: spam at se001.arandomserver.com

I'm in search of old snowplow blades, parts, frames, pumps etc. to rebuild.
=
  This would be for a truck or jeep.  I'm not interested in ATV plows.=20

Please reply if you have anything for me to look at.=20

Thanks,
Tim

Sent from my iPhone=

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 21 19:18:18 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 16:18:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo problems again
In-Reply-To: <CAKhfoy3fGUUo_rLMXJ7wCpyskR9frztGdWwaQSj2JEQ_1F8F4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKhfoy3fGUUo_rLMXJ7wCpyskR9frztGdWwaQSj2JEQ_1F8F4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <88d27ef1-d047-6e34-2e92-0cdcaed64711@msapiro.net>

On 12/21/2017 03:14 PM, Jim Dory wrote:
> I'm running a CPanel version of mailman.
> I've been seeing a lot of the following errors of mostly yahoo.com users
> but a few other providers as well.
> 
> "---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Mail Delivery System <Mailer-Daemon at server.nomekennelclub.com>
> To: nome-announce-bounces at nomekennelclub.com
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 17:22:05 +0000
> Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
> This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.
> 
> A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
> recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
> 
>  xxxx at yahoo.com
>     host mta7.am0.yahoodns.net [98.137.159.27]
>     SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
>     554 delivery error: dd Requested mail action aborted -
> mta4357.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
> 
> Action: failed
> Final-Recipient: rfc822;xxx at yahoo.com
> Status: 5.0.0
> Remote-MTA: dns; mta7.am0.yahoodns.net
> Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 554 delivery error: dd Requested mail action aborted
> - mta4357.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
> "
> 
> followed by a forwarded message that had been sent to the list by another
> user.
> -which I don't know how to deal with.


This is a Yahoo glitch. They are reporting a bogus reason for a list
message to a Yahoo address that doesn't exist. See
<https://forums.yahoo.net/t5/Delivery-errors-5xx-and-421/554-delivery-error-dd-Requested-mail-action-aborted-mta1240-mail/td-p/382749>


> And also, I just had a yahoo user try
> to send something to the list and he was completely blocked:
> 
> "From: Mail Delivery System <Mailer-Daemon at server.nomekennelclub.com>
> Date: December 21, 2017 at 10:55:27 AM AKST
> To: yyyy at yahoo.com
> Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
> 
> This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.
> 
> A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
> recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
> 
> me at dorydesign.com
>    (generated from nomeannounce at nomekennelclub.com)
>    host mx1.arandomserver.com [208.43.240.3]
>    SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
>    550 High probability of spam
> 
> 
> Action: failed
> Final-Recipient: rfc822;me at dorydesign.com
> Status: 5.0.0
> Remote-MTA: dns; mx1.arandomserver.com
> Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 High probability of spam
> "


It appears that spam detection software on your list's server is
rejecting this message as spam.



-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From rclemings at gmail.com  Fri Dec 22 14:04:16 2017
From: rclemings at gmail.com (Russell Clemings)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 11:04:16 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo problems again
Message-ID: <CAN7RX0aTh0A3aEv81_=K3aG9QOq+Crxt-qcQz9LiSpL5Rs0u_g@mail.gmail.com>

FWIW, last month on another list a Yahoo/AOL rep said it means an inactive
account. Which is not exactly the same as an account that doesn't exist, I
guess.

https://www.mail-archive.com/mailop at mailop.org/msg05018.html



On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 9:00 AM, <mailman-users-request at python.org> wrote:


> From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
> To: mailman-users at python.org
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 16:18:18 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo problems again
> On 12/21/2017 03:14 PM, Jim Dory wrote:
> > I'm running a CPanel version of mailman.
> > I've been seeing a lot of the following errors of mostly yahoo.com users
> > but a few other providers as well.
> >
> > "---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Mail Delivery System <Mailer-Daemon at server.nomekennelclub.com>
> > To: nome-announce-bounces at nomekennelclub.com
> > Cc:
> > Bcc:
> > Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 17:22:05 +0000
> > Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
> > This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.
> >
> > A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
> > recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
> >
> >  xxxx at yahoo.com
> >     host mta7.am0.yahoodns.net [98.137.159.27]
> >     SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
> >     554 delivery error: dd Requested mail action aborted -
> > mta4357.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
> >
> > Action: failed
> > Final-Recipient: rfc822;xxx at yahoo.com
> > Status: 5.0.0
> > Remote-MTA: dns; mta7.am0.yahoodns.net
> > Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 554 delivery error: dd Requested mail action
> aborted
> > - mta4357.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
> > "
> >
> > followed by a forwarded message that had been sent to the list by another
> > user.
> > -which I don't know how to deal with.
>
>
> This is a Yahoo glitch. They are reporting a bogus reason for a list
> message to a Yahoo address that doesn't exist. See
> <https://forums.yahoo.net/t5/Delivery-errors-5xx-and-421/554
> -delivery-error-dd-Requested-mail-action-aborted-mta1240-mail/td-p/382749>
>
>
>
>

From james at dorydesign.com  Sat Dec 23 12:03:57 2017
From: james at dorydesign.com (Jim Dory)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 08:03:57 -0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo problems again
In-Reply-To: <CAN7RX0aTh0A3aEv81_=K3aG9QOq+Crxt-qcQz9LiSpL5Rs0u_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAN7RX0aTh0A3aEv81_=K3aG9QOq+Crxt-qcQz9LiSpL5Rs0u_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKhfoy0-D_j=Z7pU-y3D_r6VberobcY9xOpX3p6k38g+mW-w_w@mail.gmail.com>

There were indeed a couple addresses that had unavailable mailboxes due to
being full, and one that just may have been deactivated by the user. I set
those to "no mail" but am still getting the same yahoo notifications of the
554 delivery error. Watching to see if there's another unavailable address
but have yet to see it.   Thanks for help and advice!   /jim

On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 10:04 AM, Russell Clemings <rclemings at gmail.com>
wrote:

> FWIW, last month on another list a Yahoo/AOL rep said it means an inactive
> account. Which is not exactly the same as an account that doesn't exist, I
> guess.
>
> https://www.mail-archive.com/mailop at mailop.org/msg05018.html
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 9:00 AM, <mailman-users-request at python.org> wrote:
>
>
> > From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
> > To: mailman-users at python.org
> > Cc:
> > Bcc:
> > Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 16:18:18 -0800
> > Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo problems again
> > On 12/21/2017 03:14 PM, Jim Dory wrote:
> > > I'm running a CPanel version of mailman.
> > > I've been seeing a lot of the following errors of mostly yahoo.com
> users
> > > but a few other providers as well.
> > >
> > > "---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > From: Mail Delivery System <Mailer-Daemon at server.nomekennelclub.com>
> > > To: nome-announce-bounces at nomekennelclub.com
> > > Cc:
> > > Bcc:
> > > Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 17:22:05 +0000
> > > Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
> > > This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.
> > >
> > > A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
> > > recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es)
> failed:
> > >
> > >  xxxx at yahoo.com
> > >     host mta7.am0.yahoodns.net [98.137.159.27]
> > >     SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
> > >     554 delivery error: dd Requested mail action aborted -
> > > mta4357.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
> > >
> > > Action: failed
> > > Final-Recipient: rfc822;xxx at yahoo.com
> > > Status: 5.0.0
> > > Remote-MTA: dns; mta7.am0.yahoodns.net
> > > Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 554 delivery error: dd Requested mail action
> > aborted
> > > - mta4357.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
> > > "
> > >
> > > followed by a forwarded message that had been sent to the list by
> another
> > > user.
> > > -which I don't know how to deal with.
> >
> >
> > This is a Yahoo glitch. They are reporting a bogus reason for a list
> > message to a Yahoo address that doesn't exist. See
> > <https://forums.yahoo.net/t5/Delivery-errors-5xx-and-421/554
> > -delivery-error-dd-Requested-mail-action-aborted-mta1240-
> mail/td-p/382749>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/
> mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/
> james%40dorydesign.com
>

From awhite at pdbti.org  Wed Dec 27 23:08:17 2017
From: awhite at pdbti.org (Andrew White, PhD)
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 20:08:17 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] importing large (1GB) mbox file,
 hitting a wall here..
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20171227195747.09f4c2c0@mindspring.com>

   First post- thanks much for your archives, been getting myself up to speed
   today and I hope to be a member of the community who gives back as well.

   I took over a large mailing list with a 12 year archive, which is about a
   1 GB .mbox file (about 35,000 messages). I need to upload it to a new
   Mailman install on a new server. I have a background in visual basic and
   command line SPSS, and have managed Mailman lists before, but I'm a little
   new on this part. Here's where I'm at- let me know where I'm off.

   For reference, the name of the list on the machine is dbt-l_pdbti.org.

   Per the FAQ (
   [1]https://wiki.list.org/DOC/How%20do%20I%20import%20an%20archive%20into%20a%20new%20mailing%20list%3F
   ), I uploaded the old .mbox into the correct folder (in this case
   archives/private/dbt-l_pdbti.org.mbox/).  This is a brand new list
   install, with no posts. I then ran bin/arch --wipe dbt-l_pdbti.org. When I
   checked the archives, only about 11,000 messages were imported. I saw in
   the arch help file there can be memory issues, and so to run things in
   chunks. So, I did this:

   bin/arch ---wipe q -s 0 e 10000 dbt-l_pdbti.org
   bin/arch -q -s 10001 e 20000 dbt-l_pdbti.org
   bin/arch  q -s 20001 e 30000 dbt-l_pdbti.org
   bin/arch  q -s 30001 e 40000 dbt-l_pdbti.org

   So when I do this, each piece works, but each piece overwrites the
   previous- in other words, rather than each chunk adding into the archives,
   only the most recent command seems to affect the archives. At the end of
   these commands, only messages 30,000 to 35,000 are showing up in the
   archives.

   I'm sure there is something I'm doing wrong here, but I'm feeling pretty
   stuck- is there something I'm leaving out?

   Appreciate the help-

   ........................................................................
   Andrew White, PhD
   Associate Director
   DBT-Linehan Board of Certification, Certified DBT Clinician*
   Licensed Clinical Psychologist
   Portland DBT Institute
   (503) 290.3281 (phone)
   (503) 231.8153 (fax)

   Please be aware that e-mail communication can be intercepted in
   transmission or misdirected. This e-mail message and any documents
   attached to it are confidential and may contain information that is
   protected from disclosure by various federal and state laws, including the
   HIPAA privacy rule (45 C.F.R., Part 164). This information is intended to
   be used solely by the entity or individual to whom this message is
   addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that any use,
   dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this message without
   the sender's written permission is strictly prohibited and may be
   unlawful. Accordingly, if you have received this message in error, please
   notify the sender immediately with a copy to hipaa(at)pdbti.org and
   destroy this message. Please do not include personal identifying
   information such as your birth date, or personal medical information in
   any emails you send to us. No one can diagnose your condition from email
   or other written communications and is not a reliable mechanism for
   emergency communication.

References

   Visible links
   1. https://wiki.list.org/DOC/How%20do%20I%20import%20an%20archive%20into%20a%20new%20mailing%20list?

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 28 12:33:05 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 09:33:05 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] importing large (1GB) mbox file,
 hitting a wall here..
In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20171227195747.09f4c2c0@mindspring.com>
References: <7.0.0.16.2.20171227195747.09f4c2c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <7c3a66fe-40aa-c22f-c25e-9f2968193d56@msapiro.net>

On 12/27/2017 08:08 PM, Andrew White, PhD wrote:

>    I then ran bin/arch --wipe dbt-l_pdbti.org. When I
>    checked the archives, only about 11,000 messages were imported. I saw in
>    the arch help file there can be memory issues, and so to run things in
>    chunks. So, I did this:
> 
>    bin/arch ---wipe q -s 0 e 10000 dbt-l_pdbti.org
>    bin/arch -q -s 10001 e 20000 dbt-l_pdbti.org
>    bin/arch  q -s 20001 e 30000 dbt-l_pdbti.org
>    bin/arch  q -s 30001 e 40000 dbt-l_pdbti.org
> 
>    So when I do this, each piece works, but each piece overwrites the
>    previous- in other words, rather than each chunk adding into the archives,
>    only the most recent command seems to affect the archives. At the end of
>    these commands, only messages 30,000 to 35,000 are showing up in the
>    archives.


Are you sure you are not including the --wipe option on the subsequent
commands? The behavior you describe should not occur unless --wipe is
specified on the subsequent commands.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mailman at jordan.maileater.net  Thu Dec 28 14:57:31 2017
From: mailman at jordan.maileater.net (Jordan Brown)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 11:57:31 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] options for dealing with DMARC
Message-ID: <97305993-61d8-16d5-5054-4bc9bd8c1b85@maileater.net>

I've been running my mailing list for a few years with "Munge From" to
defend against DMARC rejection.? This means that my messages get

    From: Joe User <mymailinglist at mydomain.com>
    Reply-To: Joe User <joe at example.com>

That mostly works, but sometimes confuses people a bit, and just now
I've had somebody send what I think was intended as a private address to
that From line, not to the Reply-To line.? (I think their e-mail client,
Pegasus, has an excessively flexible policy on which headers to use for
a reply and may be subtly misconfigured, but maybe they just naively
copied the From line.)

That's leading me to wonder whether there's another way, whether I can
leave From alone and still get past the DMARC checks.? Wikipedia tells
me that DMARC passes if either SPF *or* DKIM passes.? There's no hope
for SPF with the original sender in From, because the mailing list
server isn't the user's mail server.? However, DKIM seems like it
*might* pass, if I'm careful in how I configure the mailing list.? In
particular, it looks like I'd have to get rid of the message footer.?
That would be OK.? Looks like I might also have to kill off the
[ListName] addition to the Subject, which is less OK but might be better
than the alternative.

Before I go recruit a couple of users from several DMARC-using providers
and run some tests, can anybody tell me if there is any hope there, and
maybe share some configuration tips?



From mailman at jordan.maileater.net  Thu Dec 28 15:28:52 2017
From: mailman at jordan.maileater.net (Jordan Brown)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 12:28:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] options for dealing with DMARC
In-Reply-To: <97305993-61d8-16d5-5054-4bc9bd8c1b85@maileater.net>
References: <97305993-61d8-16d5-5054-4bc9bd8c1b85@maileater.net>
Message-ID: <3f963b55-3112-26fe-1e06-e7d6a7207d88@maileater.net>

[ Today is not my day for getting details right.? Sigh. ]

On 12/28/2017 11:57 AM, Jordan Brown wrote:
> I've been running my mailing list for a few years with "Munge From" to
> defend against DMARC rejection.? This means that my messages get
>
>     From: Joe User <mymailinglist at mydomain.com>

That should be

    From: Joe User via MyMailingList <mymailinglist at mydomain.com>

>     Reply-To: Joe User <joe at example.com>
>
> That mostly works, but sometimes confuses people a bit, and just now
> I've had somebody send what I think was intended as a private address to

Should be "... intended as a private message to ..."

> that From line, not to the Reply-To line.? (I think their e-mail client,
> Pegasus, has an excessively flexible policy on which headers to use for
> a reply and may be subtly misconfigured, but maybe they just naively
> copied the From line.)
>
> That's leading me to wonder whether there's another way, whether I can
> leave From alone and still get past the DMARC checks.? Wikipedia tells
> me that DMARC passes if either SPF *or* DKIM passes.? There's no hope
> for SPF with the original sender in From, because the mailing list
> server isn't the user's mail server.? However, DKIM seems like it
> *might* pass, if I'm careful in how I configure the mailing list.? In
> particular, it looks like I'd have to get rid of the message footer.?
> That would be OK.? Looks like I might also have to kill off the
> [ListName] addition to the Subject, which is less OK but might be better
> than the alternative.
>
> Before I go recruit a couple of users from several DMARC-using providers
> and run some tests, can anybody tell me if there is any hope there, and
> maybe share some configuration tips?

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 28 16:27:21 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 13:27:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] options for dealing with DMARC
In-Reply-To: <97305993-61d8-16d5-5054-4bc9bd8c1b85@maileater.net>
References: <97305993-61d8-16d5-5054-4bc9bd8c1b85@maileater.net>
Message-ID: <527a7eea-5209-5ffc-d4a4-319861fd5b6a@msapiro.net>

On 12/28/2017 11:57 AM, Jordan Brown wrote:
> 
> That's leading me to wonder whether there's another way, whether I can
> leave From alone and still get past the DMARC checks.? Wikipedia tells
> me that DMARC passes if either SPF *or* DKIM passes.? There's no hope
> for SPF with the original sender in From, because the mailing list
> server isn't the user's mail server.? However, DKIM seems like it
> *might* pass, if I'm careful in how I configure the mailing list.


Correct. As pointed out in item 2 at <https://wiki.list.org/x/17891458>
you can avoid breaking DKIM signatures by turning off Content filtering,
scrubbing of non-digest messages and Reply-To: header munging and remove
subject_prefix, msg_header and msg_footer so Mailman doesn't make
message modifications that break DKIM signatures.

If you are willing to have your list not make any such transformations,
that will work.

Ideally, you might check DMARC on incoming mail, because if it fails,
that mail will bounce anyway. E.g., I have seen a case where a user had
configured a "Yahoo" account in her local email client to send From: her
yahoo.com address but not send via a yahoo SMTP server. Thus, all of her
mail, including list mail, would be bounced by anyone not checking DMARC
because it had no yahoo.com DKIM signature, but in the case of list mail
without DMARC mitigations, this would cause multiple recipients to
bounce the mail and perhaps have their delivery disabled.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Dec 28 18:33:08 2017
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 16:33:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] options for dealing with DMARC
In-Reply-To: <97305993-61d8-16d5-5054-4bc9bd8c1b85@maileater.net>
References: <97305993-61d8-16d5-5054-4bc9bd8c1b85@maileater.net>
Message-ID: <fcb467bf-4bef-051b-4a59-f6e2aea378e1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 12/28/2017 12:57 PM, Jordan Brown wrote:
> Wikipedia tells me that DMARC passes if either SPF or DKIM passes.

Sending domain administrators can require that *both* SPF /and/ DKIM 
must pass for DMARC to pass.  So your /or/ premise is likely not going 
to work out as well as you had hoped.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Dec 28 18:49:06 2017
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 16:49:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] options for dealing with DMARC
In-Reply-To: <fcb467bf-4bef-051b-4a59-f6e2aea378e1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <97305993-61d8-16d5-5054-4bc9bd8c1b85@maileater.net>
 <fcb467bf-4bef-051b-4a59-f6e2aea378e1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <1d5fba72-1af4-eac6-32e2-cac3528635e4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 12/28/2017 04:33 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Sending domain administrators can require that *both* SPF /and/ DKIM 
> must pass for DMARC to pass.? So your /or/ premise is likely not going 
> to work out as well as you had hoped.

(*sigh*  It's been a day.)

As sure as I say that.

I may be conflating reporting with requirements to pass.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


From mailman at jordan.maileater.net  Thu Dec 28 18:48:58 2017
From: mailman at jordan.maileater.net (Jordan Brown)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 15:48:58 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] options for dealing with DMARC
In-Reply-To: <527a7eea-5209-5ffc-d4a4-319861fd5b6a@msapiro.net>
References: <97305993-61d8-16d5-5054-4bc9bd8c1b85@maileater.net>
 <527a7eea-5209-5ffc-d4a4-319861fd5b6a@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1b8ec590-445b-f15b-d89e-67df4d6e69db@oracle.com>

[ Mark, sorry for the dup.? Sent from the wrong address, so the copy to
the mailing list bounced. ]

On 12/28/2017 1:27 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/28/2017 11:57 AM, Jordan Brown wrote:
>> That's leading me to wonder whether there's another way, whether I can
>> leave From alone and still get past the DMARC checks.? Wikipedia tells
>> me that DMARC passes if either SPF *or* DKIM passes.? There's no hope
>> for SPF with the original sender in From, because the mailing list
>> server isn't the user's mail server.? However, DKIM seems like it
>> *might* pass, if I'm careful in how I configure the mailing list.
> Correct. As pointed out in item 2 at <https://wiki.list.org/x/17891458>
> you can avoid breaking DKIM signatures by turning off Content filtering,
> scrubbing of non-digest messages and Reply-To: header munging and remove
> subject_prefix, msg_header and msg_footer so Mailman doesn't make
> message modifications that break DKIM signatures.
>
> If you are willing to have your list not make any such transformations,
> that will work.

Thanks!? (And sorry for not looking at the FAQ first.)

(In looking to see what else I might have missed, I found DEV/DMARC; you
might want to link the two together.)

> Ideally, you might check DMARC on incoming mail, because if it fails,
> that mail will bounce anyway. E.g., I have seen a case where a user had
> configured a "Yahoo" account in her local email client to send From: her
> yahoo.com address but not send via a yahoo SMTP server. Thus, all of her
> mail, including list mail, would be bounced by anyone not checking DMARC
> because it had no yahoo.com DKIM signature, but in the case of list mail
> without DMARC mitigations, this would cause multiple recipients to
> bounce the mail and perhaps have their delivery disabled.


Is DMARC checking available as a Mailman feature?? I don't remember
seeing a "check DMARC" option in the UI, and I don't find one in the
docs.? I'm an HSP customer with cPanel as my UI.? It looks like I could
enable DKIM on a domain-global basis, but I don't see anything for DMARC
per se.? I don't want to turn on any domain-global rejection of
"failing" mail, because I wouldn't want to reject messages sent to the
non-mailing-list addresses.? It would be OK to add a "failed DMARC"
header to the message and then have Mailman reject on the basis of that
header.




From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 28 21:10:54 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 18:10:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] options for dealing with DMARC
In-Reply-To: <1b8ec590-445b-f15b-d89e-67df4d6e69db@oracle.com>
References: <97305993-61d8-16d5-5054-4bc9bd8c1b85@maileater.net>
 <527a7eea-5209-5ffc-d4a4-319861fd5b6a@msapiro.net>
 <1b8ec590-445b-f15b-d89e-67df4d6e69db@oracle.com>
Message-ID: <014994c5-0bba-3356-be03-694c3feefd09@msapiro.net>

On 12/28/2017 03:48 PM, Jordan Brown wrote:
> 
> On 12/28/2017 1:27 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>> As pointed out in item 2 at <https://wiki.list.org/x/17891458>
>> ...
> (In looking to see what else I might have missed, I found DEV/DMARC; you
> might want to link the two together.)


Actually, <https://wiki.list.org/x/17891458> does link to DEV/DMARC at
the end of item 1), but not vice versa.


> Is DMARC checking available as a Mailman feature?


No. It's generally something you would do in the incoming MTA. See
<http://www.trusteddomain.org/opendmarc/> for an open source milter to
check DMARC.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Fri Dec 29 11:33:10 2017
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 01:33:10 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] options for dealing with DMARC
In-Reply-To: <1b8ec590-445b-f15b-d89e-67df4d6e69db@oracle.com>
References: <97305993-61d8-16d5-5054-4bc9bd8c1b85@maileater.net>
 <527a7eea-5209-5ffc-d4a4-319861fd5b6a@msapiro.net>
 <1b8ec590-445b-f15b-d89e-67df4d6e69db@oracle.com>
Message-ID: <23110.28230.187051.618687@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Jordan Brown writes:

 > per se.? I don't want to turn on any domain-global rejection of
 > "failing" mail, because I wouldn't want to reject messages sent to the
 > non-mailing-list addresses.

You should think twice about that.  The reason why AOL and Yahoo! have
turned on the reject policy is that they leaked hundreds of millions
of address books, and the spammers were sending "recommendation from a
friend" spam apparently from the address book to their contacts.

Apparently, every "campaign" using this technique involved hundreds of
millions of messages to Yahoo! addresses alone.  Since p=reject, the
spammers try every once in a while to see if (a) p=reject is off or
(b) recipients are not respecting it.

?> It would be OK to add a "failed DMARC" header to the message and
?> then have Mailman reject on the basis of that header.

If you have a DMARC-capable MTA, you may already have one, and if not,
you probably can turn it on.  It's called the Authentication-Results
field (documented in RFC 7601).

In Mailman 3 you will soon (Mailman 3 from gitlab, mid-January?) be
able to do better in some cases.  We have several implementations of
the ARC protocol, which does check the various security protocols (SPF
-- almost guaranteed to fail, DKIM, and DMARC), and adds a signed
field to inform the next hop that you checked and what passed.

(Of course it's better to have your MTA do the ARC stuff.)

Some of the big providers (GMail and Yahoo!, I think) are already
implementing ARC.  I'm not sure if there's a way to determine if a
provider implements ARC automatically, so we may have to add a
whitelist for known ARC sites and suppress decorations or From munge
on the rest.

(What I'd like to do is tell everybody to let it fail and tell the
subscribers to request that their providers implement ARC }:^}, but
that's not really fair to you list owners.)


From awhite at pdbti.org  Thu Dec 28 14:14:58 2017
From: awhite at pdbti.org (Andrew White, PhD)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 11:14:58 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] importing large (1GB) mbox file,
 hitting a  wall here..
In-Reply-To: <7c3a66fe-40aa-c22f-c25e-9f2968193d56@msapiro.net>
References: <7.0.0.16.2.20171227195747.09f4c2c0@mindspring.com>
 <7c3a66fe-40aa-c22f-c25e-9f2968193d56@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20171228111209.09f63d70@pdbti.org>

   I checked for that- it looks like my problem solving was incomplete. I
   found an error message when running arch where it was sticking on a bad
   record - I kept getting "got an unexpected keyword argument 'flags' "
   (even after using cleanarch on the mbox file), and I think that was the
   actual problem, not running out of memory. I ran it last night removing
   that record, and it worked without batching as long as I didn't include
   that batch of records only about .3% of the file..

   At 09:33 AM 12/28/2017, you wrote:

     On 12/27/2017 08:08 PM, Andrew White, PhD wrote:

     >    I then ran bin/arch --wipe dbt-l_pdbti.org. When I
     >    checked the archives, only about 11,000 messages were imported. I
     saw in
     >    the arch help file there can be memory issues, and so to run things
     in
     >    chunks. So, I did this:
     >
     >    bin/arch ---wipe q -s 0 e 10000 dbt-l_pdbti.org
     >    bin/arch -q -s 10001 e 20000 dbt-l_pdbti.org
     >    bin/arch  q -s 20001 e 30000 dbt-l_pdbti.org
     >    bin/arch  q -s 30001 e 40000 dbt-l_pdbti.org
     >
     >    So when I do this, each piece works, but each piece overwrites the
     >    previous- in other words, rather than each chunk adding into the
     archives,
     >    only the most recent command seems to affect the archives. At the
     end of
     >    these commands, only messages 30,000 to 35,000 are showing up in
     the
     >    archives.

     Are you sure you are not including the --wipe option on the subsequent
     commands? The behavior you describe should not occur unless --wipe is
     specified on the subsequent commands.

     --
     Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
     San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
     ------------------------------------------------------
     Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
     [1]https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
     Mailman FAQ: [2]http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
     Security Policy: [3]http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
     Searchable Archives:
     [4]http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
     Unsubscribe:
     [5]https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/awhite%40pdbti.org

   ........................................................................
   Andrew White, PhD
   Associate Director
   DBT-Linehan Board of Certification, Certified DBT Clinician*
   Licensed Clinical Psychologist
   Portland DBT Institute
   (503) 290.3281 (phone)
   (503) 231.8153 (fax)

   Please be aware that e-mail communication can be intercepted in
   transmission or misdirected. This e-mail message and any documents
   attached to it are confidential and may contain information that is
   protected from disclosure by various federal and state laws, including the
   HIPAA privacy rule (45 C.F.R., Part 164). This information is intended to
   be used solely by the entity or individual to whom this message is
   addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that any use,
   dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this message without
   the sender's written permission is strictly prohibited and may be
   unlawful. Accordingly, if you have received this message in error, please
   notify the sender immediately with a copy to hipaa(at)pdbti.org and
   destroy this message. Please do not include personal identifying
   information such as your birth date, or personal medical information in
   any emails you send to us. No one can diagnose your condition from email
   or other written communications and is not a reliable mechanism for
   emergency communication.

References

   Visible links
   1. https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
   2. http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
   3. http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
   4. http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/
   5. https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/awhite at pdbti.org

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Dec 29 12:51:16 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 09:51:16 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] importing large (1GB) mbox file,
 hitting a wall here..
In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20171228111209.09f63d70@pdbti.org>
References: <7.0.0.16.2.20171227195747.09f4c2c0@mindspring.com>
 <7c3a66fe-40aa-c22f-c25e-9f2968193d56@msapiro.net>
 <7.0.0.16.2.20171228111209.09f63d70@pdbti.org>
Message-ID: <557f47b0-4f49-7a3f-7db8-fee691a86a50@msapiro.net>

On 12/28/2017 11:14 AM, Andrew White, PhD wrote:
>    I checked for that- it looks like my problem solving was incomplete. I
>    found an error message when running arch where it was sticking on a bad
>    record - I kept getting "got an unexpected keyword argument 'flags' "
>    (even after using cleanarch on the mbox file), and I think that was the
>    actual problem, not running out of memory.


It looks like we have a bug somewhere. There may be a defective message
in the .mbox, but even so, it should result in a more graceful error report.

Did you get a traceback with the "unexpected keyword argument"
exception. I would like to see a traceback and if possible, the
offending message.

Note that there is a place in the _set_date() function in
Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py where we are trying to determine the
message's date and if there is no Date: header with a valid date and no
X-List-Received-Date: header with a valid date, we look at a Received:
header and try to extract a date with

    date = floatdate(re.sub(r'^.*;\s*', '',
                            message.get('received', ''), flags=re.S))

but flags=re.S is a valid argument to re.sub. However, you might look in
your mbox for a message without a Date: header.

Also note that cleanarch won't do anything about defective messages. All
it does is look for lines that begin with 'From ' that don't appear to
be mbox message separator 'From ' lines

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Dec 29 15:30:55 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 12:30:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] importing large (1GB) mbox file,
 hitting a wall here..
In-Reply-To: <557f47b0-4f49-7a3f-7db8-fee691a86a50@msapiro.net>
References: <557f47b0-4f49-7a3f-7db8-fee691a86a50@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1012643b-0252-76eb-c985-db03029363fe@msapiro.net>

On 12/29/2017 09:51 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> It looks like we have a bug somewhere. There may be a defective message
> in the .mbox, but even so, it should result in a more graceful error report.
> 
> Did you get a traceback with the "unexpected keyword argument"
> exception. I would like to see a traceback and if possible, the
> offending message.


Never mind. The use of the flags= argument in re.sub was introduced in
Mailman 2.1.22 and requires Python 2.7.

The exception will occur with Python older than 2.7.x when attempting to
archive a message with no valid Date: header and no valid
X-List-Received-Date: header.

I have updated the FAQs at <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030629> and
<https://wiki.list.org/x/876> to note this requirement.

I have also attached a patch to Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py that will
allow it to work with older Python.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: pipermail.py.patch
Type: text/x-patch
Size: 729 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/attachments/20171229/13c724fd/attachment.bin>

From awhite at pdbti.org  Fri Dec 29 15:50:39 2017
From: awhite at pdbti.org (Andrew White, PhD)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 12:50:39 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] importing large (1GB) mbox file,
 hitting a  wall here..
In-Reply-To: <1012643b-0252-76eb-c985-db03029363fe@msapiro.net>
References: <557f47b0-4f49-7a3f-7db8-fee691a86a50@msapiro.net>
 <1012643b-0252-76eb-c985-db03029363fe@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20171229124930.09fb55d8@pdbti.org>

   I think that's totally the issue- I can see some really old messages
   (1996) which very malformed date fields. Am checking on my versions of
   software now- I'm a little limited on this end since I'm using a virtual
   box on bluehost.com, and while I have root access, there are some aspects
   I can't upgrade or change. Am looking now.

   At 12:30 PM 12/29/2017, Mark Sapiro wrote:

     On 12/29/2017 09:51 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
     >
     > It looks like we have a bug somewhere. There may be a defective
     message
     > in the .mbox, but even so, it should result in a more graceful error
     report.
     >
     > Did you get a traceback with the "unexpected keyword argument"
     > exception. I would like to see a traceback and if possible, the
     > offending message.

     Never mind. The use of the flags= argument in re.sub was introduced in
     Mailman 2.1.22 and requires Python 2.7.

     The exception will occur with Python older than 2.7.x when attempting to
     archive a message with no valid Date: header and no valid
     X-List-Received-Date: header.

     I have updated the FAQs at < [1]https://wiki.list.org/x/4030629> and
     < [2]https://wiki.list.org/x/876> to note this requirement.

     I have also attached a patch to Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py that will
     allow it to work with older Python.

     --
     Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
     San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

     ------------------------------------------------------
     Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
     [3]https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
     Mailman FAQ: [4]http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
     Security Policy: [5]http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
     Searchable Archives:
     [6]http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
     Unsubscribe:
     [7]https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/awhite%40pdbti.org

   ........................................................................
   Andrew White, PhD
   Associate Director
   DBT-Linehan Board of Certification, Certified DBT Clinician*
   Licensed Clinical Psychologist
   Portland DBT Institute
   (503) 290.3281 (phone)
   (503) 231.8153 (fax)

   Please be aware that e-mail communication can be intercepted in
   transmission or misdirected. This e-mail message and any documents
   attached to it are confidential and may contain information that is
   protected from disclosure by various federal and state laws, including the
   HIPAA privacy rule (45 C.F.R., Part 164). This information is intended to
   be used solely by the entity or individual to whom this message is
   addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that any use,
   dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this message without
   the sender's written permission is strictly prohibited and may be
   unlawful. Accordingly, if you have received this message in error, please
   notify the sender immediately with a copy to hipaa(at)pdbti.org and
   destroy this message. Please do not include personal identifying
   information such as your birth date, or personal medical information in
   any emails you send to us. No one can diagnose your condition from email
   or other written communications and is not a reliable mechanism for
   emergency communication.

References

   Visible links
   1. https://wiki.list.org/x/4030629
   2. https://wiki.list.org/x/876
   3. https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
   4. http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
   5. http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
   6. http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/
   7. https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/awhite at pdbti.org