From dan at prowebassociates.com  Wed Aug  2 11:55:26 2017
From: dan at prowebassociates.com (Dan Young)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 11:55:26 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] clear space
Message-ID: <52de642c-2418-eec4-24c9-c112a9beb06b@prowebassociates.com>


Anyone have a script, code or link that shows how to delete archives & 
maybe bounce-events
or anything else I can clean without effecting lists. Need to free up 
some space.

Thanks,
Dan Young

-- 
ProWeb Associates, Inc. <http://www.ProWebAssociates.com>
Phone: 717-207-7125

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Aug  2 14:29:42 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 11:29:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] clear space
In-Reply-To: <52de642c-2418-eec4-24c9-c112a9beb06b@prowebassociates.com>
References: <52de642c-2418-eec4-24c9-c112a9beb06b@prowebassociates.com>
Message-ID: <960f19de-51ef-4ee1-d900-1bfa5be7dee0@msapiro.net>

On 08/02/2017 08:55 AM, Dan Young wrote:
> 
> Anyone have a script, code or link that shows how to delete archives &
> maybe bounce-events
> or anything else I can clean without effecting lists. Need to free up
> some space.


If you have files in Mailman's data/ directory named
bounce-events-ppppp.pck the only one, if any, that's useful is one with
a current time stamp and ppppp = to the pid of the currently running
BounceRunner. Any others are orphaned and can safely be removed.

As for archives, see <https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/prune_arch>
(mirrored at <https://fog.ccsf.edu/~msapiro/scripts/prune_arch>), or if
you really don't want archives for a list, you can set the lists
Archiving Options -> archive to No and just remove
archives/private/LISTNAME/ and archives/private/LISTNAME.mbox/.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From rosenbaumlm at ornl.gov  Wed Aug  2 15:06:18 2017
From: rosenbaumlm at ornl.gov (Rosenbaum, Larry M.)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 19:06:18 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] clear space
In-Reply-To: <960f19de-51ef-4ee1-d900-1bfa5be7dee0@msapiro.net>
References: <52de642c-2418-eec4-24c9-c112a9beb06b@prowebassociates.com>
 <960f19de-51ef-4ee1-d900-1bfa5be7dee0@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <e77c743297bd464caf883c1807664f99@EXCHCS32.ornl.gov>

> On 08/02/2017 08:55 AM, Dan Young wrote:
> >
> > Anyone have a script, code or link that shows how to delete archives &
> > maybe bounce-events
> > or anything else I can clean without effecting lists. Need to free up
> > some space.
> 
> 
> If you have files in Mailman's data/ directory named
> bounce-events-ppppp.pck the only one, if any, that's useful is one with
> a current time stamp and ppppp = to the pid of the currently running
> BounceRunner. Any others are orphaned and can safely be removed.

What about heldmsg-*.pck files in that directory?

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Aug  2 15:37:55 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 12:37:55 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] clear space
In-Reply-To: <e77c743297bd464caf883c1807664f99@EXCHCS32.ornl.gov>
References: <52de642c-2418-eec4-24c9-c112a9beb06b@prowebassociates.com>
 <960f19de-51ef-4ee1-d900-1bfa5be7dee0@msapiro.net>
 <e77c743297bd464caf883c1807664f99@EXCHCS32.ornl.gov>
Message-ID: <96279354-cced-341c-b1c8-b8e13b5c44f3@msapiro.net>

On 08/02/2017 12:06 PM, Rosenbaum, Larry M. wrote:
> 
> What about heldmsg-*.pck files in that directory?


What about them? They are messages held for moderator action. They
should be dealt with through the admindb interface. Also see the list
admin General Options -> max_days_to_hold setting and scripts at
<https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/hold_again> and
<https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/list_requests> (mirrored at
<https://fog.ccsf.edu/~msapiro/scripts/hold_again> and
<https://fog.ccsf.edu/~msapiro/scripts/list_requests>).


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jacques at lavignotte.org  Thu Aug  3 05:48:57 2017
From: jacques at lavignotte.org (Jacques Lav!gnotte.)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2017 11:48:57 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf8' codec can't decode
 byte 0xe0 in position 88: invalid continuation byte
Message-ID: <e0e8fd3a-3850-5f30-9c9b-847ad8691cb0@lavignotte.org>

Hello,

Any message sent to a specific list generates these error messages.

I cant figure out where to search...

Thanks for you help

Jacques




Aug 03 11:31:48 2017 (29482) Uncaught runner exception: 'utf8' codec
can't decode byte 0xe0 in position 88: invalid continuation byte
Aug 03 11:31:48 2017 (29482) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in _oneloop
    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130, in
_dispose
    more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153, in
_dopipeline
    sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Cleanse.py", line 80, in process
    i18ndesc = str(uheader(mlist, mlist.description, 'From'))
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py", line 65, in
uheader
    return Header(s, charset, maxlinelen, header_name, continuation_ws)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/email/header.py", line 183, in __init__
    self.append(s, charset, errors)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/email/header.py", line 267, in append
    ustr = unicode(s, incodec, errors)
UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf8' codec can't decode byte 0xe0 in position 88:
invalid continuation byte

Aug 03 11:31:48 2017 (29482) SHUNTING:
1501752708.538834+d7c38a7bcdab18839bc4b0c694b770ae850cb4c8

-- 
GnuPg : 0x156520BBC8F5B1E3
WeUsePGP Because privacy matters http://weusepgp.info/

From jacques at lavignotte.org  Thu Aug  3 08:46:22 2017
From: jacques at lavignotte.org (Jacques Lav!gnotte.)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2017 14:46:22 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [SOLVED] Re: Error UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf8' codec
 can't decode byte 0xe0 in position 88: invalid continuation byte
In-Reply-To: <e0e8fd3a-3850-5f30-9c9b-847ad8691cb0@lavignotte.org>
References: <e0e8fd3a-3850-5f30-9c9b-847ad8691cb0@lavignotte.org>
Message-ID: <81e3c343-eb3d-9783-645a-63acb456801e@lavignotte.org>


list_members > foo
rmlist list
newlist list
add_members < foo


J.



-- 
GnuPg : 0x156520BBC8F5B1E3
WeUsePGP Because privacy matters http://weusepgp.info/

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Aug  3 11:09:48 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2017 08:09:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [SOLVED] Re: Error UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf8'
 codec can't decode byte 0xe0 in position 88: invalid continuation byte
In-Reply-To: <81e3c343-eb3d-9783-645a-63acb456801e@lavignotte.org>
References: <e0e8fd3a-3850-5f30-9c9b-847ad8691cb0@lavignotte.org>
 <81e3c343-eb3d-9783-645a-63acb456801e@lavignotte.org>
Message-ID: <d61b44b9-9662-657f-3025-2e025b9e2a3a@msapiro.net>

On 08/03/2017 05:46 AM, Jacques Lav!gnotte. wrote:
> 
> list_members > foo
> rmlist list
> newlist list
> add_members < foo


This was overkill. The underlying issue was that the list's
'description' attribute was encoded in a character set which was not
that of the list's preferred language.

This probably came about because of the Debian/Ubuntu package's blanket
recoding of all languages to UTF-8 without regard to strings in list
attributes. See <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1462755>,
particularly comment #6 and the threads referenced there, for more about
this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jacques at lavignotte.org  Fri Aug  4 04:57:48 2017
From: jacques at lavignotte.org (Jacques Lav!gnotte.)
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 10:57:48 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [SOLVED] Re: Error UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf8'
 codec can't decode byte 0xe0 in position 88: invalid continuation byte
In-Reply-To: <d61b44b9-9662-657f-3025-2e025b9e2a3a@msapiro.net>
References: <e0e8fd3a-3850-5f30-9c9b-847ad8691cb0@lavignotte.org>
 <81e3c343-eb3d-9783-645a-63acb456801e@lavignotte.org>
 <d61b44b9-9662-657f-3025-2e025b9e2a3a@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <15dff369-d997-9d72-c0f4-9004c62226f5@lavignotte.org>

Le 03/08/2017 ? 17:09, Mark Sapiro a ?crit :

> This was overkill. The underlying issue was that the list's
> 'description' attribute was encoded in a character set which was not
> that of the list's preferred language.

Thanks Mark. This will probably will be usefull for some more lists
because the server migrated to Debian 8 few days ago.

J.


Rest of the text left untouched for search purposes

> This probably came about because of the Debian/Ubuntu package's blanket
> recoding of all languages to UTF-8 without regard to strings in list
> attributes. See <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1462755>,
> particularly comment #6 and the threads referenced there, for more about
> this.
> 


-- 
GnuPg : 0x156520BBC8F5B1E3
WeUsePGP Because privacy matters http://weusepgp.info/

From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org  Fri Aug  4 09:46:35 2017
From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 13:46:35 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Newer Thunderbird reply list behaviour
Message-ID: <AM5PR0802MB25462B54C9DF08F4B214A997C5B60@AM5PR0802MB2546.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com>

Hi,

I am recently getting a lot of complaints from Thunderbird users on several lists running on our Mailman 2.1.24 system that when they press ctrl+r for reply, the reply goes to the individual sender and not the list.  Mailman is set to strip the Reply-To header and set replies to go to the list.  I believe that something in newer Thunderbirds are detecting the list headers and giving the user the option of replying to the author (ctrl+r) and the list (ctrl+l).  The only issue is sometimes this doesn't seem to be obvious to our blind subscribers which option to use in Thunderbird.

Does anyone know the precise mechanisms that Thunderbird is using, and whether there is any way to overrite it so we can get the old behaviour back by using the reply function to reply to the list?

Thanks.
Andrew.

From mailman at jordan.maileater.net  Thu Aug  3 22:15:02 2017
From: mailman at jordan.maileater.net (Jordan Brown)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2017 19:15:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?
Message-ID: <6e63cc28-f3a7-33fe-043e-654c724947e6@maileater.net>

Is there a way to control the From value when it gets munged so we pass
DMARC?

Setting it to the list name interacts badly with outloook.com and
hotmail.com replies.  Since the From address really isn't used (because
there's a Reply-To), it seems like it could be anything that's at the
host domain - the request address, for instance.

Thanks.



From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Aug  4 11:24:03 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 08:24:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?
In-Reply-To: <6e63cc28-f3a7-33fe-043e-654c724947e6@maileater.net>
References: <6e63cc28-f3a7-33fe-043e-654c724947e6@maileater.net>
Message-ID: <870f7af6-ef59-fbbd-a228-d113af2ea0bf@msapiro.net>

On 08/03/2017 07:15 PM, Jordan Brown wrote:
> Is there a way to control the From value when it gets munged so we pass
> DMARC?


There's no configuration for it, but it's a simple patch. The exact
patch depends on what version you have. In Mailman 2.1.18, the code is
around line 133 and is

>         change_header('From',
>                       formataddr(('%s via %s' % (realname, mlist.real_name),
>                                  mlist.GetListEmail())),
>                       mlist, msg, msgdata)

In 2.1.24 it is around line 187 and is

>         change_header('From',
>                       formataddr((dn, mlist.GetListEmail())),
>                       mlist, msg, msgdata)


To make the address be the list-request address for example, you'd
change mlist.GetListEmail() to mlist.getListAddress('request').

I suspect that this would cause other issues. In spite of the fact that
there will always be a Reply-To: header with some value, there will be
some user's MUAs that will include the From: address in a 'reply' or
'reply-all'. This may or may not be a problem depending on the exact
content of the reply, the setting of DISCARD_MESSAGE_WITH_NO_COMMAND
(defaults to Yes), and whether the MUA addresses the reply to the
desired addresses in addition to From:.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Fri Aug  4 11:39:02 2017
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 09:39:02 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Newer Thunderbird reply list behaviour
In-Reply-To: <AM5PR0802MB25462B54C9DF08F4B214A997C5B60@AM5PR0802MB2546.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com>
References: <AM5PR0802MB25462B54C9DF08F4B214A997C5B60@AM5PR0802MB2546.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <6543674d-4192-b30f-16f6-d9f126ba2da6@tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/04/2017 07:46 AM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:
> I am recently getting a lot of complaints from Thunderbird users 
> on several lists running on our Mailman 2.1.24 system that when they 
> press ctrl+r for reply, the reply goes to the individual sender and not 
> the list.  Mailman is set to strip the Reply-To header and set replies 
> to go to the list.  I believe that something in newer Thunderbirds are 
> detecting the list headers and giving the user the option of replying to 
> the author (ctrl+r) and the list (ctrl+l).  The only issue is sometimes 
> this doesn't seem to be obvious to our blind subscribers which option 
> to use in Thunderbird.

I can reproduce the behavior in Thunderbird 52.2.1 with this message.

I get the same behavior via pressing <Ctrl>-<r> and clicking the reply 
button, both of which reply to the OP, /not/ to the list.

I do have a button "Reply List" which seems to use the List-Post header.

It's been a while since I set up a Mailman mailing list, but I seem to 
remember having Mailman add a Reply-To and direct the replies to the 
mailing list / List-Post address.

> Does anyone know the precise mechanisms that Thunderbird is using, and 
> whether there is any way to overrite it so we can get the old behaviour 
> back by using the reply function to reply to the list?

I don't think this is a Thunderbird problem per say.  Reply "to sender" 
and reply "to list" are two distinct things.

To me, this is a user education issue -or- a mailing list configuration 
issue.  (Sorry, I can't point to how to reconfigure things.)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


From adam at agp-llc.com  Fri Aug  4 10:52:31 2017
From: adam at agp-llc.com (Adam Goldberg)
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 14:52:31 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?
In-Reply-To: <6e63cc28-f3a7-33fe-043e-654c724947e6@maileater.net>
References: <6e63cc28-f3a7-33fe-043e-654c724947e6@maileater.net>
Message-ID: <0100015dadbbc96a-5b00505f-cabc-4451-b1a2-a97bc7efdd56-000000@email.amazonses.com>

General Options, select "Munge From".

[cid:image001.png at 01D30D0F.C2588CD0]





Adam Goldberg

AGP, LLC

+1-202-507-9900





-----Original Message-----
From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+adam=agp-llc.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Jordan Brown
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 10:15 PM
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?



Is there a way to control the From value when it gets munged so we pass DMARC?



Setting it to the list name interacts badly with outloook.com and hotmail.com replies.  Since the From address really isn't used (because there's a Reply-To), it seems like it could be anything that's at the host domain - the request address, for instance.



Thanks.





------------------------------------------------------

Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org<mailto:Mailman-Users at python.org> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users

Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/

Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/adam%40agp-llc.com

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Aug  4 12:10:13 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 09:10:13 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?
In-Reply-To: <0100015dadbbc96a-5b00505f-cabc-4451-b1a2-a97bc7efdd56-000000@email.amazonses.com>
References: <6e63cc28-f3a7-33fe-043e-654c724947e6@maileater.net>
 <0100015dadbbc96a-5b00505f-cabc-4451-b1a2-a97bc7efdd56-000000@email.amazonses.com>
Message-ID: <d412dafa-a657-7d5d-cf9b-72b9c327f2eb@msapiro.net>

On 08/04/2017 07:52 AM, Adam Goldberg wrote:
> General Options, select "Munge From".
> 
> [cid:image001.png at 01D30D0F.C2588CD0]


Your screen shot was removed by content filtering, however a few comments:

It is usually preferable to use the more selective Privacy options... ->
Sender filters -> dmarc_moderation_action setting rather than the
General Options -> from_is_list setting.

The OP was not asking how to enable From: munging. He was asking how to
change the address in the munged From: to something other than the list
posting address.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Aug  4 12:18:28 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 09:18:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Newer Thunderbird reply list behaviour
In-Reply-To: <AM5PR0802MB25462B54C9DF08F4B214A997C5B60@AM5PR0802MB2546.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com>
References: <AM5PR0802MB25462B54C9DF08F4B214A997C5B60@AM5PR0802MB2546.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <124ae3f4-fcb0-d0b6-62f0-51d9398856c7@msapiro.net>

On 08/04/2017 06:46 AM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know the precise mechanisms that Thunderbird is using, and whether there is any way to overrite it so we can get the old behaviour back by using the reply function to reply to the list?


This is a Thunderbird "feature". It's stupid and they refuse to reverse
it. See <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1309486> including
my comment at <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1309486#c38>.

The only way around in Mailman it is to set General Options ->
include_list_post_header to No. This will restore the old behavior
except you will no longer be offered a 'reply-list' option in Tbird and
other MUAs that support that.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mailman at jordan.maileater.net  Fri Aug  4 13:15:19 2017
From: mailman at jordan.maileater.net (Jordan Brown)
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 10:15:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?
In-Reply-To: <870f7af6-ef59-fbbd-a228-d113af2ea0bf@msapiro.net>
References: <6e63cc28-f3a7-33fe-043e-654c724947e6@maileater.net>
 <870f7af6-ef59-fbbd-a228-d113af2ea0bf@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <084dc633-92cf-8317-6f60-e859d7e65332@maileater.net>

On 8/4/2017 8:24 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 08/03/2017 07:15 PM, Jordan Brown wrote:
>> Is there a way to control the From value when it gets munged so we pass
>> DMARC?
> There's no configuration for it, but it's a simple patch.

Thanks.  Alas, I'm a hosting-provider customer, not standalone, and so
don't have access to make source changes.  Maybe it can go on the wish list?

> I suspect that this would cause other issues. In spite of the fact that
> there will always be a Reply-To: header with some value, there will be
> some user's MUAs that will include the From: address in a 'reply' or
> 'reply-all'. This may or may not be a problem depending on the exact
> content of the reply, the setting of DISCARD_MESSAGE_WITH_NO_COMMAND
> (defaults to Yes), and whether the MUA addresses the reply to the
> desired addresses in addition to From:.

It seems like that could be controlled through the choice of the address
used.  Although the -request address seems obvious, one could also use
the -owner address, or an address that bounces or leads into a black
hole.  Let the admin specify the address to use.


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Aug  4 15:51:59 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 12:51:59 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?
In-Reply-To: <084dc633-92cf-8317-6f60-e859d7e65332@maileater.net>
References: <6e63cc28-f3a7-33fe-043e-654c724947e6@maileater.net>
 <870f7af6-ef59-fbbd-a228-d113af2ea0bf@msapiro.net>
 <084dc633-92cf-8317-6f60-e859d7e65332@maileater.net>
Message-ID: <bcfab7f4-194f-051e-9b30-e926486136dd@msapiro.net>

On 08/04/2017 10:15 AM, Jordan Brown wrote:
> On 8/4/2017 8:24 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 08/03/2017 07:15 PM, Jordan Brown wrote:
>>> Is there a way to control the From value when it gets munged so we pass
>>> DMARC?
>> There's no configuration for it, but it's a simple patch.
> 
> Thanks.  Alas, I'm a hosting-provider customer, not standalone, and so
> don't have access to make source changes.  Maybe it can go on the wish list?


You could submit a request at
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+filebug> or for Mailman 3, at
<https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/issues>, but It's unlikely that
anything will be done, at least for 2.1.

For Mailman 2.1, I see two ways to do this. The easy way is to create an
mm_cfg.py setting with which one could specify 'xxx' to be added to the
address as in listname-xxx at example.com.  This wouldn't help you and
other hosting provider customers however as the hosts would almost
certainly not change the default.

The alternative of making it a list setting is more work as it affects
the web admin UI and the translations thereof.

Also, with either method, forward porting to MM 3 is an additional
consideration.

I'm aware of issues with Microsoft services adding 'spoofing' warnings
to messages where the From: address and the To: address are the same. Is
this what you were referring to by "Setting it to the list name
interacts badly with outloook.com and hotmail.com replies." in your OP.
If not that, then what?

In any case, if these issues become more problematic, we'll probably
have to do something, but what, I don't know.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mailman at jordan.maileater.net  Fri Aug  4 16:35:32 2017
From: mailman at jordan.maileater.net (Jordan Brown)
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 13:35:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?
In-Reply-To: <bcfab7f4-194f-051e-9b30-e926486136dd@msapiro.net>
References: <6e63cc28-f3a7-33fe-043e-654c724947e6@maileater.net>
 <870f7af6-ef59-fbbd-a228-d113af2ea0bf@msapiro.net>
 <084dc633-92cf-8317-6f60-e859d7e65332@maileater.net>
 <bcfab7f4-194f-051e-9b30-e926486136dd@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <161fe88b-c8fc-bdf6-5011-9eecf3fb27e6@maileater.net>

On 8/4/2017 12:51 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> I'm aware of issues with Microsoft services adding 'spoofing' warnings
> to messages where the From: address and the To: address are the same.
> Is this what you were referring to by "Setting it to the list name
> interacts badly with outloook.com and hotmail.com replies." in your
> OP. If not that, then what?

I haven't investigated deeply, but with an original message like:

    Return-Path: <list1-bounces at listdomain.org>
    Return-path: <list1-bounces at listdomain.org>
    Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 19:44:35 +0000 (UTC)
    To: list2 <list2 at listdomain.org>, 
    	list1 <list1 at listdomain.org>
    Subject: [list1] ...
    X-BeenThere: list1 at listdomain.org
    X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23
    Precedence: list
    List-Id: "list1" <list1.listdomain.org>
    List-Unsubscribe: <http://listdomain.org/mailman/options/list1_listdomain.org>, 
    	<mailto:list1-request at listdomain.org?subject=unsubscribe>
    List-Post: <mailto:list1 at listdomain.org>
    List-Help: <mailto:list1-request at listdomain.org?subject=help>
    List-Subscribe: <http://listdomain.org/mailman/listinfo/list1_listdomain.org>,
    	<mailto:list1-request at listdomain.org?subject=subscribe>
    From: Jane User via list1 <list1 at listdomain.org>
    Reply-To: Jane User <jane at example.net>
    Errors-To: list1-bounces at listdomain.org
    Sender: "list1" <list1-bounces at listdomain.org>

Two of my users (on outlook.com and hotmail.com) ended up with
reply-to-all results that were addressed to Joe User and list2, but not
to list1 at all.  (Note that this reply came to me via list2.)

    Return-Path: <list2-bounces at listdomain.org>
    Return-path: <list2-bounces at listdomain.org>
    To: Troop 92 list2 <list2 at listdomain.org>, Jane User
    	<jane at example.com>
    Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 20:27:29 +0000
    Subject: Re: [list2] [list1] ...
    X-BeenThere: list2 at listdomain.org
    X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23
    Precedence: list
    List-Id: list2 <list2.listdomain.org>
    List-Unsubscribe: <http://listdomain.org/mailman/options/list2_listdomain.org>, 
    	<mailto:list2-request at listdomain.org?subject=unsubscribe>
    List-Post: <mailto:list2 at listdomain.org>
    List-Help: <mailto:list2-request at listdomain.org?subject=help>
    List-Subscribe: <http://listdomain.org/mailman/listinfo/list2_listdomain.org>, 
    	<mailto:list2-request at listdomain.org?subject=subscribe>
    From: Susan MsUser via list2 <list2 at listdomain.org>
    Reply-To: Susan MsUser <susan at hotmail.com>
    Errors-To: list2-bounces at listdomain.org
    Sender: "list2" <list2-bounces at listdomain.org>

My theory is that MS is (wrongly) dropping the "To" copy of list1 from
the reply because it's the From, and then (correctly) using the Reply-To
instead of the From.

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Aug  4 17:32:07 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 14:32:07 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?
In-Reply-To: <161fe88b-c8fc-bdf6-5011-9eecf3fb27e6@maileater.net>
References: <6e63cc28-f3a7-33fe-043e-654c724947e6@maileater.net>
 <870f7af6-ef59-fbbd-a228-d113af2ea0bf@msapiro.net>
 <084dc633-92cf-8317-6f60-e859d7e65332@maileater.net>
 <bcfab7f4-194f-051e-9b30-e926486136dd@msapiro.net>
 <161fe88b-c8fc-bdf6-5011-9eecf3fb27e6@maileater.net>
Message-ID: <2415634d-035e-3c07-ae9e-0892dd40d652@msapiro.net>

On 08/04/2017 01:35 PM, Jordan Brown wrote:
> On 8/4/2017 12:51 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> I'm aware of issues with Microsoft services adding 'spoofing' warnings
>> to messages where the From: address and the To: address are the same.
>> Is this what you were referring to by "Setting it to the list name
>> interacts badly with outloook.com and hotmail.com replies." in your
>> OP. If not that, then what?
> 
> I haven't investigated deeply, but with an original message like:


Thanks for the info.


>     Return-Path: <list1-bounces at listdomain.org>
>     Return-path: <list1-bounces at listdomain.org>
>     Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 19:44:35 +0000 (UTC)
>     To: list2 <list2 at listdomain.org>, 
>     	list1 <list1 at listdomain.org>
>     Subject: [list1] ...
>     X-BeenThere: list1 at listdomain.org
>     X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23
>     Precedence: list
>     List-Id: "list1" <list1.listdomain.org>
>     List-Unsubscribe: <http://listdomain.org/mailman/options/list1_listdomain.org>, 
>     	<mailto:list1-request at listdomain.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>     List-Post: <mailto:list1 at listdomain.org>
>     List-Help: <mailto:list1-request at listdomain.org?subject=help>
>     List-Subscribe: <http://listdomain.org/mailman/listinfo/list1_listdomain.org>,
>     	<mailto:list1-request at listdomain.org?subject=subscribe>
>     From: Jane User via list1 <list1 at listdomain.org>
>     Reply-To: Jane User <jane at example.net>
>     Errors-To: list1-bounces at listdomain.org
>     Sender: "list1" <list1-bounces at listdomain.org>
> 
> Two of my users (on outlook.com and hotmail.com) ended up with
> reply-to-all results that were addressed to Joe User and list2, but not
> to list1 at all.  ...

> My theory is that MS is (wrongly) dropping the "To" copy of list1 from
> the reply because it's the From, and then (correctly) using the Reply-To
> instead of the From.


It looks to me as if your theory is correct, except I wouldn't say
"wrongly". I think an MUA is arguably doing the right thing by
overriding the From: address with the Reply-To: address on a reply-all
even though the From: address is also in To:.

I agree that this is an issue because without From: munging the message
would be From: Jane User <jane at example.net> and presumably reply-all
would go to Jane and both lists in To:.

Here's what I say in the code

>     # MAS: We need to do some things with the original From: if we've munged
>     # it for DMARC mitigation.  We have goals for this process which are
>     # not completely compatible, so we do the best we can.  Our goals are:
>     # 1) as long as the list is not anonymous, the original From: address
>     #    should be obviously exposed, i.e. not just in a header that MUAs
>     #    don't display.
>     # 2) the original From: address should not be in a comment or display
>     #    name in the new From: because it is claimed that multiple domains
>     #    in any fields in From: are indicative of spamminess.  This means
>     #    it should be in Reply-To: or Cc:.
>     # 3) the behavior of an MUA doing a 'reply' or 'reply all' should be
>     #    consistent regardless of whether or not the From: is munged.
>     # Goal 3) implies sometimes the original From: should be in Reply-To:
>     # and sometimes in Cc:, and even so, this goal won't be achieved in
>     # all cases with all MUAs.  In cases of conflict, the above ordering of
>     # goals is priority order.

Clearly in this case with these MUAs we don't meet Goal 3) and this
falls into "even so, this goal won't be achieved in all cases with all
MUAs."

I think it might be possible to munge the address to
no_reply at example.com instead of listname at example.com in all cases of
From: munging. I have to consider all the possible consequences of this,
or as many as I can think of, before actually doing it.

One issue that comes to mind immediately is when the original From: goes
in Cc:. This is when the Reply-To: is munged to be the list address and
is done so that "reply" goes only to the list and "reply-all" includes
the original From:. In this case, "reply-all" may (arguably wrongly, but
still ...) include the no_reply address which is bad.

I'm inclined to leave it as is for now, but I'll continue to think about it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mailman at jordan.maileater.net  Fri Aug  4 22:30:18 2017
From: mailman at jordan.maileater.net (Jordan Brown)
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 19:30:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?
In-Reply-To: <2415634d-035e-3c07-ae9e-0892dd40d652@msapiro.net>
References: <6e63cc28-f3a7-33fe-043e-654c724947e6@maileater.net>
 <870f7af6-ef59-fbbd-a228-d113af2ea0bf@msapiro.net>
 <084dc633-92cf-8317-6f60-e859d7e65332@maileater.net>
 <bcfab7f4-194f-051e-9b30-e926486136dd@msapiro.net>
 <161fe88b-c8fc-bdf6-5011-9eecf3fb27e6@maileater.net>
 <2415634d-035e-3c07-ae9e-0892dd40d652@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <e2d3be1f-d9a9-bd12-553f-36b0a1b40466@maileater.net>

On 8/4/2017 2:32 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> My theory is that MS is (wrongly) dropping the "To" copy of list1 from
>> the reply because it's the From, and then (correctly) using the Reply-To
>> instead of the From.
> It looks to me as if your theory is correct, except I wouldn't say
> "wrongly". I think an MUA is arguably doing the right thing by
> overriding the From: address with the Reply-To: address on a reply-all
> even though the From: address is also in To:.

It should certainly override the From with the Reply-To.

What I'm objecting to is the fact that it hunts down *other* instances
of the address in From and removes them (or perhaps replaces them with
the Reply-To and then eliminates duplicates).  I think Reply-All should
take {Reply-To, else From}, To, and CC, and reply to them.


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Aug  5 00:36:07 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 21:36:07 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?
In-Reply-To: <e2d3be1f-d9a9-bd12-553f-36b0a1b40466@maileater.net>
References: <6e63cc28-f3a7-33fe-043e-654c724947e6@maileater.net>
 <870f7af6-ef59-fbbd-a228-d113af2ea0bf@msapiro.net>
 <084dc633-92cf-8317-6f60-e859d7e65332@maileater.net>
 <bcfab7f4-194f-051e-9b30-e926486136dd@msapiro.net>
 <161fe88b-c8fc-bdf6-5011-9eecf3fb27e6@maileater.net>
 <2415634d-035e-3c07-ae9e-0892dd40d652@msapiro.net>
 <e2d3be1f-d9a9-bd12-553f-36b0a1b40466@maileater.net>
Message-ID: <fa35fe89-8d06-e993-2ce6-697a332d07ca@msapiro.net>

On 08/04/2017 07:30 PM, Jordan Brown wrote:
> 
> What I'm objecting to is the fact that it hunts down *other* instances
> of the address in From and removes them (or perhaps replaces them with
> the Reply-To and then eliminates duplicates).  I think Reply-All should
> take {Reply-To, else From}, To, and CC, and reply to them.


I agree that what you think would be reasonable and what people
generally expect, but what RFC 5322 says is

      Note: Some mail applications have automatic reply commands that
      include the destination addresses of the original message in the
      destination addresses of the reply.  How those reply commands
      behave is implementation dependent and is beyond the scope of this
      document.  In particular, whether or not to include the original
      destination addresses when the original message had a "Reply-To:"
      field is not addressed here.

Which basically says that whatever the specific MUA does with reply-all
when there is a Reply-To: is not addressed by the standard and is up to
the implementer, so while you and I may not like the behavior of
outlook/hotmail in this case, we can't say it is non-compliant.

As an aside, you don't want to convince me that this behavior is wrong,
because you'd like me to do something in Mailman to make this reply-all
behavior work as expected, but I'm not interested in kludging Mailman to
accommodate broken MUAs.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dlugasny at protonmail.com  Sun Aug  6 14:34:48 2017
From: dlugasny at protonmail.com (Dlugasny)
Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2017 14:34:48 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sync_members - doesnt sync E-mail addresses with
 german umlauts characters (in the domain)
Message-ID: <y2YLt1Ln8ydeY4qxxWXenIyBREOO1-SSGQnVxxaMYl2g27Km0CPj_U8A7S88RXu1J5R9e7yl5s0PYHoY9c7Y4jHCmehf2JK-uozXngXzEbU=@protonmail.com>

Hi,
sync_members command is not able to sync E-mail addresses with german Umlauts.

[?, ?,](https://learn-german-easily.com/german-umlauts)

I saw some rules for an valid E-mail domain in .../Mailman/Utils.py
This kind of characters are allowed in the domain names, but mailman accepting only a-z 0-9. Is it possible to change it ?
Greetz
Dlugasny

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Aug  6 15:11:46 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 12:11:46 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sync_members - doesnt sync E-mail addresses
 with german umlauts characters (in the domain)
In-Reply-To: <y2YLt1Ln8ydeY4qxxWXenIyBREOO1-SSGQnVxxaMYl2g27Km0CPj_U8A7S88RXu1J5R9e7yl5s0PYHoY9c7Y4jHCmehf2JK-uozXngXzEbU=@protonmail.com>
References: <y2YLt1Ln8ydeY4qxxWXenIyBREOO1-SSGQnVxxaMYl2g27Km0CPj_U8A7S88RXu1J5R9e7yl5s0PYHoY9c7Y4jHCmehf2JK-uozXngXzEbU=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <bc0bc944-d6b4-1fd8-ab54-618a81b107f0@msapiro.net>

On 08/06/2017 11:34 AM, Dlugasny via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Hi,
> sync_members command is not able to sync E-mail addresses with german Umlauts.
> 
> [?, ?,](https://learn-german-easily.com/german-umlauts)
> 
> I saw some rules for an valid E-mail domain in .../Mailman/Utils.py
> This kind of characters are allowed in the domain names, but mailman accepting only a-z 0-9. Is it possible to change it ?


Mailman 2.1 does not support Internationalized Domain Names (RFCs
5890-5894 and predecessors). There are no plans for it to do so in the
future.

Mailman 3 currently does not support Internationalized Domain Names
either, but may do so in the future.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Sun Aug  6 15:18:51 2017
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 15:18:51 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sync_members - doesnt sync E-mail addresses
 with german umlauts characters (in the domain)
In-Reply-To: <y2YLt1Ln8ydeY4qxxWXenIyBREOO1-SSGQnVxxaMYl2g27Km0CPj_U8A7S88RXu1J5R9e7yl5s0PYHoY9c7Y4jHCmehf2JK-uozXngXzEbU=@protonmail.com>
References: <y2YLt1Ln8ydeY4qxxWXenIyBREOO1-SSGQnVxxaMYl2g27Km0CPj_U8A7S88RXu1J5R9e7yl5s0PYHoY9c7Y4jHCmehf2JK-uozXngXzEbU=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <82684f1a-b985-dbee-77d2-6cca22629adc@Damon-Family.org>

On 8/6/17 2:34 PM, Dlugasny via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Hi,
> sync_members command is not able to sync E-mail addresses with german Umlauts.
>
> [?, ?,](https://learn-german-easily.com/german-umlauts)
>
> I saw some rules for an valid E-mail domain in .../Mailman/Utils.py
> This kind of characters are allowed in the domain names, but mailman accepting only a-z 0-9. Is it possible to change it ?
> Greetz
> Dlugasny
>
The issue is likely due to the fact that the base protocol document for 
SMTP only allows for 'ASCII' characters in email addresses (and to a 
large extent anywhere in the headers of an email message). There are 
extensions with varying degrees of acceptance that extend this character 
set. (Note, I don't think SMTP needs to be 8 bit clean even for the 
message body, which is why we still have things like BASE64 and 
Quote-Printed encoding for messages).

A second part of the question is to what level does Python email 
libraries support these extensions and how easy is it to figure out how 
the local email system will handle messages that attempt to use them.

-- 
Richard Damon


From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Mon Aug  7 02:36:10 2017
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 15:36:10 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?
In-Reply-To: <e2d3be1f-d9a9-bd12-553f-36b0a1b40466@maileater.net>
References: <6e63cc28-f3a7-33fe-043e-654c724947e6@maileater.net>
 <870f7af6-ef59-fbbd-a228-d113af2ea0bf@msapiro.net>
 <084dc633-92cf-8317-6f60-e859d7e65332@maileater.net>
 <bcfab7f4-194f-051e-9b30-e926486136dd@msapiro.net>
 <161fe88b-c8fc-bdf6-5011-9eecf3fb27e6@maileater.net>
 <2415634d-035e-3c07-ae9e-0892dd40d652@msapiro.net>
 <e2d3be1f-d9a9-bd12-553f-36b0a1b40466@maileater.net>
Message-ID: <22920.2650.994635.955421@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Jordan Brown writes:

 > What I'm objecting to is the fact that it hunts down *other* instances
 > of the address in From and removes them (or perhaps replaces them with
 > the Reply-To and then eliminates duplicates).  I think Reply-All should
 > take {Reply-To, else From}, To, and CC, and reply to them.

Unfortunately, you can assume that the large freemail services do not
care what you think.  I'm not sure why they've all gone substantially
downhill in the last decade, but they have.  Probably they get
complaints and feel they have to "do something, anything" about them.

That said, I don't know if it's a useful option for you, but one
possibility would be to set reply-to to the list as well as using one
of the munge_from settings.  Because munge_from has the effect of
hiding the author's address, it also places the author's address in
the reply-to, even if the list is already there.

Steve

-- 
Associate Professor              Division of Policy and Planning Science
http://turnbull/sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/     Faculty of Systems and Information
Email: turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp                   University of Tsukuba
Tel: 029-853-5175                 Tennodai 1-1-1, Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN

From mailman at jordan.maileater.net  Mon Aug  7 12:43:50 2017
From: mailman at jordan.maileater.net (Jordan Brown)
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 09:43:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?
In-Reply-To: <22920.2650.994635.955421@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <6e63cc28-f3a7-33fe-043e-654c724947e6@maileater.net>
 <870f7af6-ef59-fbbd-a228-d113af2ea0bf@msapiro.net>
 <084dc633-92cf-8317-6f60-e859d7e65332@maileater.net>
 <bcfab7f4-194f-051e-9b30-e926486136dd@msapiro.net>
 <161fe88b-c8fc-bdf6-5011-9eecf3fb27e6@maileater.net>
 <2415634d-035e-3c07-ae9e-0892dd40d652@msapiro.net>
 <e2d3be1f-d9a9-bd12-553f-36b0a1b40466@maileater.net>
 <22920.2650.994635.955421@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <e0d73210-2260-8e31-4562-cee9214db777@maileater.net>

On 8/6/2017 11:36 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Unfortunately, you can assume that the large freemail services do not
> care what you think.

Yep.

50% :-)
50% :-(

> I'm not sure why they've all gone substantially
> downhill in the last decade, but they have.  Probably they get
> complaints and feel they have to "do something, anything" about them.

Sometimes I think they're trying to drive everybody to Facebook.

> That said, I don't know if it's a useful option for you, but one
> possibility would be to set reply-to to the list as well as using one
> of the munge_from settings.  Because munge_from has the effect of
> hiding the author's address, it also places the author's address in
> the reply-to, even if the list is already there.

Alas, no.  I've seen too many messages intended to be private sent to
the entire list with that configuration; I would never use it.  (I've
boycotted lists simply because they insisted on that configuration.)

Thanks.


From karotlopj at gmail.com  Tue Aug  8 13:19:20 2017
From: karotlopj at gmail.com (John Poltorak)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 18:19:20 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 on FreeBSD
Message-ID: <CAH7uOGtGAhjF51oR0mkguTZ6YuRi70cO+9tVGqX_ZfYA0876ag@mail.gmail.com>

Is it possible to run Mailman 3 on FreeBSD?

If anyone has it working can you say if I should simply follow the normal
installation instructions or are there any gotchas?

From david at midrange.com  Tue Aug  8 13:22:01 2017
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:22:01 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Distributed mass subscribe attack?
Message-ID: <omcrvk$ht8$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Folks:

Anyone else noticing a distributed mass subscribe attack going on their lists?

I've noticed a massive number of attempts a small subset of email addresses, with modifiers (address+modifier at example.com), going on.

It appears the address is valid ... so it appears to be some kind of hit job to flood someone's inbox.

Luckily the address's are trivial to block using 'ban_list'.

The hosts they are using appear to be from all over the place, although they do seem to be favoring hosts serviced by virtua.com.br.

david


-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding a metric century (100 km / 65 miles) in the American Diabetes Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax deductible donation to my ride by visiting http://gmane.diabetessucks.net.  My goal is $6000 but any amount is appreciated.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map ... http://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From bsfinkel at att.net  Tue Aug  8 13:59:55 2017
From: bsfinkel at att.net (Barry S. Finkel)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:59:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Distributed mass subscribe attack?
In-Reply-To: <omcrvk$ht8$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <omcrvk$ht8$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <142036b7-1891-a76d-c572-cb6193756430@att.net>

On 8/8/2017 12:22 PM, David Gibbs wrote:
> Folks:
> 
> Anyone else noticing a distributed mass subscribe attack going on their 
> lists?
> 
> I've noticed a massive number of attempts a small subset of email 
> addresses, with modifiers (address+modifier at example.com), going on.
> 
> It appears the address is valid ... so it appears to be some kind of hit 
> job to flood someone's inbox.
> 
> Luckily the address's are trivial to block using 'ban_list'.
> 
> The hosts they are using appear to be from all over the place, although 
> they do seem to be favoring hosts serviced by virtua.com.br.
> 
> david
> 
> 


I would report this to  mail-abuse at cert.br .

--Barry Finkel

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Aug  8 14:06:50 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 11:06:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <CAH7uOGtGAhjF51oR0mkguTZ6YuRi70cO+9tVGqX_ZfYA0876ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH7uOGtGAhjF51oR0mkguTZ6YuRi70cO+9tVGqX_ZfYA0876ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0b144964-3e58-d2f6-1bb1-5d7fd79e754a@msapiro.net>

John Poltorak wrote:

> Is it possible to run Mailman 3 on FreeBSD?


I don't know of anything that would be an issue. I know MM 3 has been
successfully installed on Mac OS X/Darwin.

A better place for this inquiry would be mailman-users at mailman3.org
<https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users at mailman3.org/>
or mailman-developers at python.org
<https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Aug  8 14:30:06 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 11:30:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Distributed mass subscribe attack?
In-Reply-To: <omcrvk$ht8$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <omcrvk$ht8$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e3e7f37b-d7b7-cbbb-87ea-1da4ed18f8dc@msapiro.net>

On 08/08/2017 10:22 AM, David Gibbs wrote:
> 
> Anyone else noticing a distributed mass subscribe attack going on their
> lists?
> 
> I've noticed a massive number of attempts a small subset of email
> addresses, with modifiers (address+modifier at example.com), going on.
> 
> It appears the address is valid ... so it appears to be some kind of hit
> job to flood someone's inbox.
> 
> Luckily the address's are trivial to block using 'ban_list'.


I've seen this on mail.python.org in the past but not recently. Both the
form you mention and a local-part at gmail.com form with dots interspersed
in the local part (which gmail ignores). I agree that it appears to be
some kind of hit job to flood someone's inbox.

It is this kind of attack that motivated the GLOBAL_BAN_LIST feature in
MM 2.1.21.

What I've seen recently is massive non-member posts in chinese to
maulman-users at mailman3.org from addresses of the form
string_of_digits at qq.com and some at 163.com. After waking up to 2000+
held message notifications a while back, I now block these with a
Postfix header_checks rule

/^From:.*<.*[0-9]{4}.*@(qq|163)\.com>/ REJECT Go away you F*ing mail bomber

I am still seeing a few from various @163.com addresses, but I am now
(temporarily?) discarding non-member posts, so I only see them in logs
if I look.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Tue Aug  8 14:44:18 2017
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 03:44:18 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?
In-Reply-To: <e0d73210-2260-8e31-4562-cee9214db777@maileater.net>
References: <6e63cc28-f3a7-33fe-043e-654c724947e6@maileater.net>
 <870f7af6-ef59-fbbd-a228-d113af2ea0bf@msapiro.net>
 <084dc633-92cf-8317-6f60-e859d7e65332@maileater.net>
 <bcfab7f4-194f-051e-9b30-e926486136dd@msapiro.net>
 <161fe88b-c8fc-bdf6-5011-9eecf3fb27e6@maileater.net>
 <2415634d-035e-3c07-ae9e-0892dd40d652@msapiro.net>
 <e2d3be1f-d9a9-bd12-553f-36b0a1b40466@maileater.net>
 <22920.2650.994635.955421@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <e0d73210-2260-8e31-4562-cee9214db777@maileater.net>
Message-ID: <22922.1666.920793.360509@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Jordan Brown writes:

 > Alas, no.  I've seen too many messages intended to be private sent to
 > the entire list with that configuration; I would never use it.

Good for you!  I'm sorry that means that the suggestion is useless to
you, though.

Steve

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Wed Aug  9 05:47:16 2017
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 18:47:16 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] About "qq" and "163" [was: Distributed mass
 subscribe attack?]
In-Reply-To: <e3e7f37b-d7b7-cbbb-87ea-1da4ed18f8dc@msapiro.net>
References: <omcrvk$ht8$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <e3e7f37b-d7b7-cbbb-87ea-1da4ed18f8dc@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <22922.55844.677592.419453@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > What I've seen recently is massive non-member posts in chinese to
 > maulman-users at mailman3.org from addresses of the form

Eh! ^^^ Barry is not going to be pleased! :^)

 > string_of_digits at qq.com

For future reference, qq.com does not appear to support mailboxes with
intelligible names (actually those are phone numbers or perhaps hashed
phone numbers, I think).  

 > and some at 163.com.

Again for reference, both of these Chinese domains have real people
using them :-( and have long histories of tolerating spamming. :-( :-(
Fortunately for me, my employer has a very-stupid-but-convenient-for-
this-purpose-rule-against-many-non-institutional-mailboxes, so I just
tell my Chinese students to go to Gmail or use their @university
addresses.

I feel sorry for them because on the one hand recently China has
decided to ban Gmail and the VPNs they use to get to Gmail "on the
outside", and on the other @university webmail is, well, "squirrely",
but they're philosophical about it.

@infinite_scream ...

Steve

From karotlopj at gmail.com  Wed Aug  9 06:51:03 2017
From: karotlopj at gmail.com (John Poltorak)
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 11:51:03 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <0b144964-3e58-d2f6-1bb1-5d7fd79e754a@msapiro.net>
References: <CAH7uOGtGAhjF51oR0mkguTZ6YuRi70cO+9tVGqX_ZfYA0876ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <0b144964-3e58-d2f6-1bb1-5d7fd79e754a@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAH7uOGsi3urV=2dgWD2qGhHx-05B=hGRcqWX0RgZMeqLZ0sP0w@mail.gmail.com>

I'm trying to follow the instructions here

http://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/prodsetup.html

After pip3 install mailman I'm supoosed to

create a configuration file at /etc/mailman.cfg for Mailman Core.

On FreeBSD this would be /usr/local/etc/mailman.cfg but how would know
where to look and what should I put in this file? Can I use the same file
from Mailman v2?

After installing mailman, I'm instructed to run 'mailman info' but this
shows a number of errors because the module '_sqlite3' cannot be found.

On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 7:06 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> John Poltorak wrote:
>
> > Is it possible to run Mailman 3 on FreeBSD?
>
>
> I don't know of anything that would be an issue. I know MM 3 has been
> successfully installed on Mac OS X/Darwin.
>
> A better place for this inquiry would be mailman-users at mailman3.org
> <https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users at mailman3.org/>
> or mailman-developers at python.org
> <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers>.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/
> mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/
> karotlopj%40gmail.com
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Aug  9 11:36:46 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 08:36:46 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <CAH7uOGsi3urV=2dgWD2qGhHx-05B=hGRcqWX0RgZMeqLZ0sP0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH7uOGtGAhjF51oR0mkguTZ6YuRi70cO+9tVGqX_ZfYA0876ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <0b144964-3e58-d2f6-1bb1-5d7fd79e754a@msapiro.net>
 <CAH7uOGsi3urV=2dgWD2qGhHx-05B=hGRcqWX0RgZMeqLZ0sP0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <60056b41-4d19-b6fb-3004-b8721d2044f6@msapiro.net>

On 08/09/2017 03:51 AM, John Poltorak wrote:
> I'm trying to follow the instructions here
> 
> http://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/prodsetup.html


The person who wrote those docs does not read this list. As I said in my
prior reply:

>> A better place for this inquiry would be mailman-users at mailman3.org
>> <https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users at mailman3.org/>
>> or mailman-developers at python.org
>> <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers>.


Please join one of those two lists and post this there.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From alb at pccp.com.ar  Wed Aug  9 13:17:00 2017
From: alb at pccp.com.ar (Dr. Alberto Barengols)
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2017 14:17:00 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Errors while sending mail: centos + mailman +
 postfix
In-Reply-To: <47a2335f24650c5b373a6f80e914d605@pccp.com.ar>
References: <47a2335f24650c5b373a6f80e914d605@pccp.com.ar>
Message-ID: <13d491952950fdba23142499bfca60a7@pccp.com.ar>

Hello everybody!
   I just installed Mailman version: 2.1.15  in a Centos server running 
Postfix 2,11,3

  I had create a list ( cod3 at listas.pccorreo.com.ar ), and everything 
went right.

But when I send a message to this list it appears some errors:

==========================================================================
<cod3 at listas.pccorreo.com.ar>: Command died with status 5:
     "/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman". Command output: Usage:
     /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman program [args...]

<post at listas.pccorreo.com.ar> (expanded from 
<cod3 at listas.pccorreo.com.ar>):
     unknown user: "post"

<cod3 at listas.pccorreo.com.ar>: unknown user: "cod3"
==========================================================================

What do you think about??

Thanks in advance, Alberto
/////////////////////////////

-------- Mensaje Original --------


Transient hostname: listas.pccp.com.ar
Operating System: CentOS Linux 7 (Core)
CPE OS Name: cpe:/o:centos:centos:7
Kernel: Linux 3.10.0-327.4.4.el7.centos.plus.x86_64
Architecture: x86-64

Using Mailman version: 2.1.15
POSTFIX mail_version = 2.11.3



From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Aug 10 16:26:25 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:26:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Errors while sending mail: centos + mailman +
 postfix
In-Reply-To: <13d491952950fdba23142499bfca60a7@pccp.com.ar>
References: <47a2335f24650c5b373a6f80e914d605@pccp.com.ar>
 <13d491952950fdba23142499bfca60a7@pccp.com.ar>
Message-ID: <498ed090-9372-8ec9-4ebc-cc7145ea693a@msapiro.net>

On 08/09/2017 10:17 AM, Dr. Alberto Barengols wrote:
> 
>  I had create a list ( cod3 at listas.pccorreo.com.ar ), and everything
> went right.
> 
> But when I send a message to this list it appears some errors:
> 
> ==========================================================================
> <cod3 at listas.pccorreo.com.ar>: Command died with status 5:
>     "/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman". Command output: Usage:
>     /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman program [args...]
> 
> <post at listas.pccorreo.com.ar> (expanded from
> <cod3 at listas.pccorreo.com.ar>):
>     unknown user: "post"
> 
> <cod3 at listas.pccorreo.com.ar>: unknown user: "cod3"
> ==========================================================================


You really need to configure Mailman Postfix integration for automatic
alias generation. See
<http://www.list.org/mailman-install/postfix-integration.html>.

That said, you have aliases like

cod3: |/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post cod3

They need to be quoted as

cod3: "|/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post cod3"

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From acravens at uen.org  Fri Aug 11 11:13:17 2017
From: acravens at uen.org (Andy Cravens)
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 15:13:17 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and reCAPTCHA v2
Message-ID: <D867650B-6C9A-4A53-BAB8-2B233AAAFF12@umail.utah.edu>

Currently running mailman 2.1.23 and would like to implement reCAPTCHA v2.  The only information I can find on this topic relates to reCAPTCHA v1 which google no longer supports.  I can?t even generate keys for v1 any more.  Has anybody successfully implemented reCAPTCHA v2 with mailman 2.1.X ?

?
Andy  

From fid0 at safecomputing.org  Tue Aug 15 11:24:01 2017
From: fid0 at safecomputing.org (Christian)
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 08:24:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] posting to list is not seen by mailman
Message-ID: <003a01d315da$86607ac0$93217040$@safecomputing.org>

Using postfix, dovecot & mysql. I changed the certs on postfix and dovecot
and it broke email lists that were working previously. My smtp server works
fine except for postings sent to a mailman list. There are no obvious errors
in the mail log, nor in mailman's logfiles. I'm stumped. Thanks in advance.

 

__

https://impeachdonaldtrumpnow.org <https://impeachdonaldtrumpnow.org/> 

"Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding." -
Albert Einstein


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Aug 15 12:30:13 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 09:30:13 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] posting to list is not seen by mailman
In-Reply-To: <003a01d315da$86607ac0$93217040$@safecomputing.org>
References: <003a01d315da$86607ac0$93217040$@safecomputing.org>
Message-ID: <a6c5588d-1b1b-b900-f925-27165a467310@msapiro.net>

On 08/15/2017 08:24 AM, Christian wrote:
> Using postfix, dovecot & mysql. I changed the certs on postfix and dovecot
> and it broke email lists that were working previously. My smtp server works
> fine except for postings sent to a mailman list. There are no obvious errors
> in the mail log, nor in mailman's logfiles. I'm stumped. Thanks in advance.


Is Mailman running? See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030723>, items 2.2 and 6.2

What does the mail log say about the disposition of the message to the list?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fid0 at safecomputing.org  Wed Aug 16 10:27:17 2017
From: fid0 at safecomputing.org (Christian)
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 07:27:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] posting to list is not seen by mailman
In-Reply-To: <a6c5588d-1b1b-b900-f925-27165a467310@msapiro.net>
References: <003a01d315da$86607ac0$93217040$@safecomputing.org>
 <a6c5588d-1b1b-b900-f925-27165a467310@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <006901d3169b$c36933f0$4a3b9bd0$@safecomputing.org>

I got it working. Turns out it was an IP block on my ISPs network. thank you
anyway!

__
https://impeachdonaldtrumpnow.org
"Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding." -
Albert Einstein

-----Original Message-----
From: Mailman-Users
[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+fid0=safecomputing.org at python.org] On Behalf
Of Mark Sapiro
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 9:30 AM
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] posting to list is not seen by mailman

On 08/15/2017 08:24 AM, Christian wrote:
> Using postfix, dovecot & mysql. I changed the certs on postfix and 
> dovecot and it broke email lists that were working previously. My smtp 
> server works fine except for postings sent to a mailman list. There 
> are no obvious errors in the mail log, nor in mailman's logfiles. I'm
stumped. Thanks in advance.


Is Mailman running? See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030723>, items 2.2 and 6.2

What does the mail log say about the disposition of the message to the list?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy:
http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives:
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe:
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fid0%40safecomputing.o
rg


From radwa.hamed at auf.org  Thu Aug 17 07:30:28 2017
From: radwa.hamed at auf.org (Radwa Hamed)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2017 13:30:28 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message not accepted for policy reasons
In-Reply-To: <7c351c82-936d-0fe0-2dd9-2c3136413490@msapiro.net>
References: <b2006308-af4e-2cca-2199-ea6f3f575a44@auf.org>
 <7c351c82-936d-0fe0-2dd9-2c3136413490@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <3071e1fc-d444-d264-572a-f076dd11e9da@auf.org>

Thank you very much for the reply that was exactly what I'm looking for 
, I just had to upgrade mailman to 2.1.18 to find these options


Le 19/07/2017 ? 16:45, Mark Sapiro a ?crit :
> On 07/19/2017 06:23 AM, Radwa Hamed wrote:
>> is there a way to change the sender address to our
>> domain which permits our ip as sender , while keeping the reply to
>> address that of the original sender , so that the sender would be known
>> to others
>
> See <https://wiki.list.org/x/17891458>
>
> In Mailman 2.1.18+ setting Privacy options... -> Sender filters ->
> dmarc_moderation_action to "Munge From" will do exactly what you ask.
>

-- 
Ing?nieur Radwa Hamed
Responsable Technique local du Campus Num?rique Francophone (CNF) de l'Agence Universitaire de la francophonie (AUF) ?  l'Universit? Senghor
D?partement Formations ?  Distance (FAD) & Technologies de l'information et de la communication pour l'Education (TICE)
1, Place Ahmed Orabi, EL Mancheya
BP 415, 21111 Alexandrie - Egypte
T?l : ++ 203 482 99 59


From david at midrange.com  Thu Aug 17 16:39:47 2017
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2017 15:39:47 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Distributed mass subscribe attack?
In-Reply-To: <omcrvk$ht8$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <omcrvk$ht8$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <on4uud$lea$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 8/8/2017 12:22 PM, David Gibbs wrote:
> Anyone else noticing a distributed mass subscribe attack going on
> their lists?
>
> I've noticed a massive number of attempts a small subset of email
> addresses, with modifiers (address+modifier at example.com), going on.
>
> It appears the address is valid ... so it appears to be some kind of
> hit job to flood someone's inbox.

FWIW: I did a bit of hacking (super simple) and think I've found a way to thwart the attempt (at least on my server).

It appears that the bot that's doing the attack first gets the subscribe form, so it can retrieve the sub_form_token value, before it does a POST to do the subscribe.

I changed the subscribe & listinfo scripts to use a different name for the sub_form_token field.  Something unique to my system.

I've seen a lot of GETS & POSTS from the hosts that were doing the attack and no subscribe's logged.

david



-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding a metric century (100 km / 65 miles) in the American Diabetes Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research, education, advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax deductible donation to my ride by visiting http://gmane.diabetessucks.net.  My goal is $6000 but any amount is appreciated.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive donation map ... http://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From acravens at uen.org  Thu Aug 17 16:44:36 2017
From: acravens at uen.org (Andy Cravens)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2017 20:44:36 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Distributed mass subscribe attack?
In-Reply-To: <on4uud$lea$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <omcrvk$ht8$1@blaine.gmane.org> <on4uud$lea$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <9EBE2C95-DBBA-4887-876F-147FB5A4FC05@umail.utah.edu>

On 8/8/2017 12:22 PM, David Gibbs wrote:
> Anyone else noticing a distributed mass subscribe attack going on
> their lists?
> 
> I've noticed a massive number of attempts a small subset of email
> addresses, with modifiers (address+modifier at example.com), going on.
> 
> It appears the address is valid ... so it appears to be some kind of
> hit job to flood someone's inbox.

"FWIW: I did a bit of hacking (super simple) and think I've found a way to thwart the attempt (at least on my server).

It appears that the bot that's doing the attack first gets the subscribe form, so it can retrieve the sub_form_token value, before it does a POST to do the subscribe.

I changed the subscribe & listinfo scripts to use a different name for the sub_form_token field.  Something unique to my system."




I have the same issues.  Thank you for the info above.  I?m also working on a patch for reCaptcha V2.  Don?t know if I?ll have it done this month.

?
Andy

From acravens at uen.org  Thu Aug 17 16:47:48 2017
From: acravens at uen.org (Andy Cravens)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2017 20:47:48 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Distributed mass subscribe attack?
In-Reply-To: <on4uud$lea$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <omcrvk$ht8$1@blaine.gmane.org> <on4uud$lea$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <341AA5A1-FF4F-470E-AF97-B286AF9D5083@umail.utah.edu>

On 8/8/2017 12:22 PM, David Gibbs wrote:
> Anyone else noticing a distributed mass subscribe attack going on
> their lists?
> 
> I've noticed a massive number of attempts a small subset of email
> addresses, with modifiers (address+modifier at example.com), going on.
> 
> It appears the address is valid ... so it appears to be some kind of
> hit job to flood someone's inbox.

FWIW: I did a bit of hacking (super simple) and think I've found a way to thwart the attempt (at least on my server).

It appears that the bot that's doing the attack first gets the subscribe form, so it can retrieve the sub_form_token value, before it does a POST to do the subscribe.

I changed the subscribe & listinfo scripts to use a different name for the sub_form_token field.  Something unique to my system.

I've seen a lot of GETS & POSTS from the hosts that were doing the attack and no subscribe's logged.

david




David,

I forgot to mention I?m also working on a modsecurity rule to look at all POSTs and reject if they contain an email address with a + sign.

?
Andy

From david at midrange.com  Fri Aug 18 10:36:06 2017
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 09:36:06 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Distributed mass subscribe attack?
In-Reply-To: <341AA5A1-FF4F-470E-AF97-B286AF9D5083@umail.utah.edu>
References: <omcrvk$ht8$1@blaine.gmane.org> <on4uud$lea$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <341AA5A1-FF4F-470E-AF97-B286AF9D5083@umail.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <on6u04$2kp$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 8/17/17 3:47 PM, Andy Cravens wrote:
> I forgot to mention I?m also working on a modsecurity rule to look at
> all POSTs and reject if they contain an email address with a + sign.

I'm interested in both your recaptcha mod & mod_security rule ... please
post (or contact me privately) when you make some progress.

If you're interested in my MM mod, let me know.

david



-- 
IBM i on Power Systems: For when you can't afford to be out of business!

I'm riding a metric century (100 km / 65 miles) in the American Diabetes
Association's Tour de Cure to raise money for diabetes research,
education, advocacy, and awareness.  You can make a tax deductible
donation to my ride by visiting http://gmane.diabetessucks.net.  My goal
is $6000 but any amount is appreciated.

You can see where my donations come from by visiting my interactive
donation map ... http://gmane.diabetessucks.net/map (it's a geeky thing).

I may have diabetes, but diabetes doesn't have me!


From tlhackque at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 18 12:25:36 2017
From: tlhackque at yahoo.com (tlhackque)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 12:25:36 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Distributed mass subscribe attack?
In-Reply-To: <341AA5A1-FF4F-470E-AF97-B286AF9D5083@umail.utah.edu>
References: <omcrvk$ht8$1@blaine.gmane.org> <on4uud$lea$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <341AA5A1-FF4F-470E-AF97-B286AF9D5083@umail.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <c99684a9-ea8b-e0ee-1c47-75afbcebfa5b@yahoo.com>

On 17-Aug-17 16:47, Andy Cravens wrote:
>
>
> David,
>
> I forgot to mention I?m also working on a modsecurity rule to look at all POSTs
> and reject if they contain an email address with a + sign.
>
I understand the drive to suppress an attack.  However, + is valid in
e-mail addresses.  It's frequently used by people to setup auto-filing
rules, and/or to track the source of addresses harvested for SPAM.

I strongly discourage any service provider from defining what formats of
e-mail addresses are acceptable.  Such definitions, however
well-intentioned, are almost always wrong - and effectively blindly deny
service.

We've seen this with hardcoded lists of TLDs (there'll never be more
than 13.  + CC TLDs. + IDN + freemarket...).  And every variety of
mailbox name format restriction - character set, length, "bad words", ...

If an address is valid per RFC822 (2822,5322, ...), accept it.

But by all means use other approaches to suppress attacks.  Captchas are
probably your best shot.  Rate limiting can help.  You can use
(imperfect) filtering by geolocating by IP address - if your client base
doesn't include the whole world.   Other tricks include telling the user
to wait a minute or two before clicking submit; discard or require
re-submission of early responses.  Bots won't do that. 

No matter what you do, the spammers will adapt, eventually.  But unless
you're a particularly appealing target, they're likely to move on if you
do almost anything unusual.


From phils at caerllewys.net  Fri Aug 18 13:07:29 2017
From: phils at caerllewys.net (Phil Stracchino)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 13:07:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Distributed mass subscribe attack?
In-Reply-To: <c99684a9-ea8b-e0ee-1c47-75afbcebfa5b@yahoo.com>
References: <omcrvk$ht8$1@blaine.gmane.org> <on4uud$lea$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <341AA5A1-FF4F-470E-AF97-B286AF9D5083@umail.utah.edu>
 <c99684a9-ea8b-e0ee-1c47-75afbcebfa5b@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1da13b54-13c2-c96d-fc85-2a9f55c646ec@caerllewys.net>

On 08/18/17 12:25, tlhackque via Mailman-Users wrote:
> On 17-Aug-17 16:47, Andy Cravens wrote:
>>
>>
>> David,
>>
>> I forgot to mention I?m also working on a modsecurity rule to look at all POSTs
>> and reject if they contain an email address with a + sign.
>>
> I understand the drive to suppress an attack.  However, + is valid in
> e-mail addresses.  It's frequently used by people to setup auto-filing
> rules, and/or to track the source of addresses harvested for SPAM.
> 
> I strongly discourage any service provider from defining what formats of
> e-mail addresses are acceptable.  Such definitions, however
> well-intentioned, are almost always wrong - and effectively blindly deny
> service.

I second this.  It is a legitimate part of compliant email addresses, no
matter how many web stores seem to believe otherwise (or are merely
unaware of it).

> If an address is valid per RFC822 (2822,5322, ...), accept it.

This.

> No matter what you do, the spammers will adapt, eventually.  But unless
> you're a particularly appealing target, they're likely to move on if you
> do almost anything unusual.

One of your best first lines of defense is don't be the low-hanging fruit.


-- 
  Phil Stracchino
  Babylon Communications
  phils at caerllewys.net
  phil at co.ordinate.org
  Landline: +1.603.293.8485
  Mobile:   +1.603.998.6958

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Fri Aug 18 13:52:10 2017
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 11:52:10 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Distributed mass subscribe attack?
In-Reply-To: <1da13b54-13c2-c96d-fc85-2a9f55c646ec@caerllewys.net>
References: <omcrvk$ht8$1@blaine.gmane.org> <on4uud$lea$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <341AA5A1-FF4F-470E-AF97-B286AF9D5083@umail.utah.edu>
 <c99684a9-ea8b-e0ee-1c47-75afbcebfa5b@yahoo.com>
 <1da13b54-13c2-c96d-fc85-2a9f55c646ec@caerllewys.net>
Message-ID: <8495aa48-f4fa-128e-c4d8-0bd8fb59c360@tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/18/2017 11:07 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
> I second this.  It is a legitimate part of compliant email addresses, no
> matter how many web stores seem to believe otherwise (or are merely
> unaware of it).

I third this.

I love user+detail but HATE that poorly designed web forms balk at +, 
and have been forced to do something else for user+detail like 
functionality.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


From guest2 at sgeinc.com  Sat Aug 19 03:27:42 2017
From: guest2 at sgeinc.com (Richard Shetron)
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 03:27:42 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Distributed mass subscribe attack?
In-Reply-To: <8495aa48-f4fa-128e-c4d8-0bd8fb59c360@tnetconsulting.net>
References: <omcrvk$ht8$1@blaine.gmane.org> <on4uud$lea$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <341AA5A1-FF4F-470E-AF97-B286AF9D5083@umail.utah.edu>
 <c99684a9-ea8b-e0ee-1c47-75afbcebfa5b@yahoo.com>
 <1da13b54-13c2-c96d-fc85-2a9f55c646ec@caerllewys.net>
 <8495aa48-f4fa-128e-c4d8-0bd8fb59c360@tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <8f929429-457e-a292-dda1-fddc5908b0ed@sgeinc.com>



On 8/18/2017 1:52 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> On 08/18/2017 11:07 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
>> I second this.? It is a legitimate part of compliant email addresses, no
>> matter how many web stores seem to believe otherwise (or are merely
>> unaware of it).
> 
> I third this.
> 
> I love user+detail but HATE that poorly designed web forms balk at +, 
> and have been forced to do something else for user+detail like 
> functionality.

I also agree with allowing the +.  I run my own mail server and now that 
postfix allows defining more then one tag character, I've added _ so I 
can tag with both + and _.  The sites rejecting RFC compliant addresses 
are very annoying.

From steve at tunedinweb.com  Sat Aug 19 10:27:20 2017
From: steve at tunedinweb.com (Steve Wehr)
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 10:27:20 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users being unsubscribed without requesting it.
Message-ID: <029c01d318f7$447df310$cd79d930$@com>

I host about a hundred lists and from time to time the list owners keep
telling me that users are being unsubscribed from the list without asking to
be. Now I assume these users are just being removed for bouncing, but when I
check the mailman log files in /var/log/mailman I see this:

 

subscribe:Aug 18 00:41:10 2017 (22583) saintsofswing: deleted
dorrainescofield at gmail.com; via the member options page

 

My understanding of "via the member options page" means that that user
unsubscribed themselves from the list. Users who bound have a completely
different set of messages in the logs and it's clear they were removed by
mailman for bouncing.

 

The problem is that when contacted, these users swear they DID NOT
unsubscribe themselves. So how can they be getting unsubscribed (with
messages in the logs like the one above) but they are not going to the
member options page and unsubscribing??

 

Thanks for your help.

 

_____________________

Steve Wehr

Tunedin Web Design <http://www.tunedinweb.com/> 

 


From weif at weif.net  Sat Aug 19 10:55:18 2017
From: weif at weif.net (Keith Seyffarth)
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 08:55:18 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users being unsubscribed without requesting it.
In-Reply-To: <029c01d318f7$447df310$cd79d930$@com> (steve@tunedinweb.com)
Message-ID: <84o9rbwqsp.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>

"Steve Wehr" <steve at tunedinweb.com> writes:

<snip>

> The problem is that when contacted, these users swear they DID NOT
> unsubscribe themselves. So how can they be getting unsubscribed (with
> messages in the logs like the one above) but they are not going to the
> member options page and unsubscribing??

One possibility would be that they are marking these messages as "Junk"
or "Spam" and their ESP/ISP, either through a manual or automated
process, is following the unsubscribe link in the email to remove them
from the list...

-- 
----
from my mac to yours...

Keith Seyffarth
mailto:weif at weif.net
http://www.weif.net/ - Home of the First Tank Guide!
http://www.rpgcalendar.net/ - the Montana Role-Playing Calendar
----
http://www.miscon.org/ - Montana's Longest Running Science Fiction Convention

From acravens at uen.org  Sat Aug 19 11:08:28 2017
From: acravens at uen.org (Andy Cravens)
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 15:08:28 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users being unsubscribed without requesting it.
In-Reply-To: <029c01d318f7$447df310$cd79d930$@com>
References: <029c01d318f7$447df310$cd79d930$@com>
Message-ID: <7DCA4AD7-5A6D-4F9C-A587-255921094250@umail.utah.edu>

On Aug 19, 2017, at 8:27 AM, Steve Wehr <steve at tunedinweb.com> wrote:


subscribe:Aug 18 00:41:10 2017 (22583) saintsofswing: deleted
dorrainescofield at gmail.com; via the member options page




Steve, if this was done via the web interface the first thing I would do is get the date/timestamp for the log entry ?deleted via the member options page.?   Next, search through your apache logs looking for that same date/timestamp.  You should be able to find the exact apache access log entry with that date and time down to the second where someone submitted the form to remove the user.  Your apache log should contain the IP address of the client who submitted the form.  Finally, look up that IP address to see who owns it.  You could also grep for that IP address to get all the access logs for that user to see what else they are up to.  This would allow you to track down the client responsible for unsubscribing that address.

?
Andy



From steve at tunedinweb.com  Sat Aug 19 11:31:31 2017
From: steve at tunedinweb.com (Steve Wehr)
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 11:31:31 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users being unsubscribed without requesting it.
In-Reply-To: <84o9rbwqsp.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
References: <029c01d318f7$447df310$cd79d930$@com> (steve@tunedinweb.com)
 <84o9rbwqsp.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
Message-ID: <030601d31900$3bb8af50$b32a0df0$@com>

That's the best theory I have heard so far to explain the facts. 

The user's in question, who are being unsubscribed without asking to be, are
people who like the mailing lists they are on, and would not be flagging
emails from the list as spam. Now their ISP might, but they wouldn't. The
list owners swear to me that these people are friends who want their emails.

Some further info... I was including a link at the bottom of all emails sent
by mailman (in the msg_footer field: 
"Click this link to unsubscribe:
%(user_optionsurl)s?password=%(user_password)s&unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" 

I thought perhaps users were accidentally clicking this and unsubscribing
themselves, so I have removed the "&unsubconfirm=1" part of the URL so they
will have to manually confirm.

Maybe this would foil ISPs who are automatically following this link to
unsubscribe people. Do ISPs really do this?

_____________________
Steve Wehr
Tunedin Web Design


-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Seyffarth [mailto:weif at weif.net] 
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 10:55 AM
To: Steve Wehr
Cc: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Users being unsubscribed without requesting it.

"Steve Wehr" <steve at tunedinweb.com> writes:

<snip>

> The problem is that when contacted, these users swear they DID NOT 
> unsubscribe themselves. So how can they be getting unsubscribed (with 
> messages in the logs like the one above) but they are not going to the 
> member options page and unsubscribing??

One possibility would be that they are marking these messages as "Junk"
or "Spam" and their ESP/ISP, either through a manual or automated process,
is following the unsubscribe link in the email to remove them from the
list...

--
----
from my mac to yours...

Keith Seyffarth
mailto:weif at weif.net
http://www.weif.net/ - Home of the First Tank Guide!
http://www.rpgcalendar.net/ - the Montana Role-Playing Calendar
----
http://www.miscon.org/ - Montana's Longest Running Science Fiction
Convention


From listown at nanniandjack.com  Sun Aug 20 17:39:43 2017
From: listown at nanniandjack.com (List Manager)
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 15:39:43 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users being unsubscribed without requesting it.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.0.1503158402.23484.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.0.1503158402.23484.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <dfd926d78adf447649591838d3902969@nanniandjack.com>

Steve-

Just a thought, but since the "unsubscribe link" has been part of the
output of your list, it is possible that someone other than the
recipient sees the link and clicks on it, either in malice or error
(trying to unsubscribe themselves)
--
Jack Hill, W4KH - BoatAnchors Listowner/Archiver
listown at nanniandjack.com
"Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose"
"Il n'y a que les idiots qui ne changent jamais d'idee"

 On 2017-08-19 10:00, Steve Wehr wrote:

> That's the best theory I have heard so far to explain the facts.  
> 
> The user's in question, who are being unsubscribed without asking to be, are people who like the mailing lists they are on, and would not be flagging emails from the list as spam. Now their ISP might, but they wouldn't. The list owners swear to me that these people are friends who want their emails.
> 
> Some further info... I was including a link at the bottom of all emails sent by mailman (in the msg_footer field: 
> "Click this link to unsubscribe:
> %(user_optionsurl)s?password=%(user_password)s&unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" 
> 
> I thought perhaps users were accidentally clicking this and unsubscribing
> themselves, so I have removed the "&unsubconfirm=1" part of the URL so they will have to manually confirm.
> 
> Maybe this would foil ISPs who are automatically following this link to
> unsubscribe people. Do ISPs really do this?
> 
> _____________________
> Steve Wehr
> Tunedin Web Design
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Seyffarth [mailto:weif at weif.net] 
> Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 10:55 AM
> To: Steve Wehr
> Cc: mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Users being unsubscribed without requesting it.
> 
> "Steve Wehr" <steve at tunedinweb.com> writes:
> 
> <snip>
> 
>> The problem is that when contacted, these users swear they DID NOT 
>> unsubscribe themselves. So how can they be getting unsubscribed (with 
>> messages in the logs like the one above) but they are not going to the 
>> member options page and unsubscribing??
> 
> One possibility would be that they are marking these messages as "Junk"
> or "Spam" and their ESP/ISP, either through a manual or automated process,
> is following the unsubscribe link in the email to remove them from the
> list...

From jhs at berklix.com  Sun Aug 20 21:44:50 2017
From: jhs at berklix.com (Julian H. Stacey)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 03:44:50 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users being unsubscribed without requesting it.
In-Reply-To: Your message "Sat, 19 Aug 2017 11:31:31 -0400."
 <030601d31900$3bb8af50$b32a0df0$@com>
Message-ID: <201708210145.v7L1io7x003574@fire.js.berklix.net>

"Steve Wehr" wrote:
> That's the best theory I have heard so far to explain the facts. 
> 
> The user's in question, who are being unsubscribed without asking to be, are
> people who like the mailing lists they are on, and would not be flagging
> emails from the list as spam. Now their ISP might, but they wouldn't. The
> list owners swear to me that these people are friends who want their emails.
> 
> Some further info... I was including a link at the bottom of all emails sent
> by mailman (in the msg_footer field: 
> "Click this link to unsubscribe:
> %(user_optionsurl)s?password=%(user_password)s&unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" 
> 
> I thought perhaps users were accidentally clicking this and unsubscribing
> themselves, so I have removed the "&unsubconfirm=1" part of the URL so they
> will have to manually confirm.
> 
> Maybe this would foil ISPs who are automatically following this link to
> unsubscribe people. Do ISPs really do this?

Those list members may have forwarded some posts to acquaintances,
those 3rd parties may have clicked those links mostly
by accident.  I have received stuff like that quite often from
people (regardless what mail manager was) Some people are clueless
thus forward without pruning. Some careless, some time pressured,
& some 3rd parties will click Anything.

Andy C's idea is good: Track a couple of cases in apache (or other httpd) logs .

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Munich
 Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable.
 http://berklix.eu/brexit/#3,500,000_stolen_votes_inc_700,000_in_EU

From johnl at taugh.com  Mon Aug 21 16:08:26 2017
From: johnl at taugh.com (John Levine)
Date: 21 Aug 2017 20:08:26 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users being unsubscribed without requesting it.
In-Reply-To: <201708210145.v7L1io7x003574@fire.js.berklix.net>
Message-ID: <20170821200826.9589.qmail@ary.lan>

In article <201708210145.v7L1io7x003574 at fire.js.berklix.net> you write:
>> Maybe this would foil ISPs who are automatically following this link to
>> unsubscribe people. Do ISPs really do this?

There are plenty of anti-spam schemes that fetch all the URLs in a
message to see whether they're malicious.  That's why ESPs usually
have a landing page with a confirm link, and why we wrote RFC 8058
which defines a one-click opt-out link that uses POST rather than GET,
since the URL malware fetchers all do GETs.

R's,
John

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Mon Aug 21 17:56:52 2017
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 15:56:52 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users being unsubscribed without requesting it.
In-Reply-To: <20170821200826.9589.qmail@ary.lan>
References: <20170821200826.9589.qmail@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <7e0bd0e4-b837-4d76-3c14-a0b6dfda982b@tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/21/2017 02:08 PM, John Levine wrote:
> There are plenty of anti-spam schemes that fetch all the URLs in a
> message to see whether they're malicious.  That's why ESPs usually
> have a landing page with a confirm link, and why we wrote RFC 8058
> which defines a one-click opt-out link that uses POST rather than GET,
> since the URL malware fetchers all do GETs.

Why do single click?

Why not do confirmed?

I.e. you go to a page that asks you to "Click here to confirm that you 
want to unsubscribe."?

I never understood the problem with (what I consider to be) double opt 
in / out.

I'd also worry that the POST method is not distinct enough compared to 
GET.  (At least compared to double opt out.)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


From johnl at taugh.com  Mon Aug 21 19:32:50 2017
From: johnl at taugh.com (John Levine)
Date: 21 Aug 2017 23:32:50 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users being unsubscribed without requesting it.
In-Reply-To: <7e0bd0e4-b837-4d76-3c14-a0b6dfda982b@tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <20170821233250.10128.qmail@ary.lan>

In article <7e0bd0e4-b837-4d76-3c14-a0b6dfda982b at tnetconsulting.net> you write:
>-=-=-=-=-=-
>-=-=-=-=-=-
>
>On 08/21/2017 02:08 PM, John Levine wrote:
>> which defines a one-click opt-out link that uses POST rather than GET,
>> since the URL malware fetchers all do GETs.
>
>Why do single click?  Why not do confirmed?

You can read RFC 8058 and find out about the specific problem it addresses.

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8058

R's,
John

From acravens at uen.org  Tue Aug 22 12:18:57 2017
From: acravens at uen.org (Andy Cravens)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2017 16:18:57 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Distributed mass subscribe attack?
In-Reply-To: <on6u04$2kp$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <omcrvk$ht8$1@blaine.gmane.org> <on4uud$lea$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <341AA5A1-FF4F-470E-AF97-B286AF9D5083@umail.utah.edu>
 <on6u04$2kp$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <7B0AC1DF-E57C-4DBB-9B49-61BC4BBA69F9@umail.utah.edu>


On Aug 18, 2017, at 8:36 AM, David Gibbs <david at midrange.com> wrote:

On 8/17/17 3:47 PM, Andy Cravens wrote:
> I forgot to mention I?m also working on a modsecurity rule to look at
> all POSTs and reject if they contain an email address with a + sign.

I'm interested in both your recaptcha mod & mod_security rule ... please
post (or contact me privately) when you make some progress.

If you're interested in my MM mod, let me know.




After reading the responses concerning the + symbol in email addresses I have decided not to block them.  What I did was to implement reCaptcha v1 using the instructions here: 

https://www.dragonsreach.it/2014/05/03/adding-recaptcha-support-to-mailman/

When I first looked at this I had made several bad assumptions.  I assumed you could not use the reCaptcha v2 keys with v1.  The new keys work fine with v1.  I had to apply the patch manually by editing the files and inserting the new code.  It wasn?t a big deal.   I still plan on looking at implementing v2 sometime this year if I can find some free time.  Also plan on creating the modsecurity rules mentioned earlier.  Another modsecurity rule I want to create is to watch for outgoing replies that indicate a failed login attempt and take action if conditions warrant.  I will post my rules when I have tested and verified they work.

?
Andy

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Wed Aug 23 00:32:19 2017
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 13:32:19 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users being unsubscribed without requesting it.
In-Reply-To: <201708210145.v7L1io7x003574@fire.js.berklix.net>
References: <030601d31900$3bb8af50$b32a0df0$@com>
 <201708210145.v7L1io7x003574@fire.js.berklix.net>
Message-ID: <22941.1363.20510.718103@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Julian H. Stacey writes:

 > Some people are clueless thus forward without pruning.

While I strongly agree with you that pruning is a great idea, and
award bonus points to those who prune, I think "clueless" is unfair.
Granted, "leaking" personalized links is a pretty serious issue and
people "should" learn to trim them, but in the face of top-posting
culture that's a pretty severe demand.

For more about why I believe this, see

      http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/Teach/ESES/socsys-2.html

(The last in the series is socsys-9, titled "Institutions".)

Steve


From jhs at berklix.com  Fri Aug 25 09:29:23 2017
From: jhs at berklix.com (Julian H. Stacey)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2017 15:29:23 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] periodic shunts might have been undetected bad
 bounce_matching_headers
Message-ID: <201708251329.v7PDTN7B044085@fire.js.berklix.net>

Hi mailman-users at python.org
I hope I may have solved some postings being shunted on a few of my lists,
necessitating occasional
	cd /usr/local/mailman; unshunt qfiles/shunt

I discovered 3 lists had missing '\n', shown with
	cd /usr/local/mailman/lists; config_list -o - ListName
bounce_matching_headers = """# Lines that *start* with a '#' are comments.

Fixed with 
	cd /usr/local/mailman/lists ; config_list -o ~/tmp/ListName ListName
	vi  ~/tmp/ListName ; config_list -i ~/tmp/ListName ListName
& I hope the shunting will stop.

I did autopsy snapshots of /usr/local/mailman before & after last unshunt,
if anyone feels like telling me what to look for.

Unfortunately the corrupt bounce_matching_headers lines in configuration
were undetected by these automatic checks 
	cd /usr/local/etc/rc.d; ./mailman stop ; ./mailman start 
	cd /usr/local/mailman/lists ; ../bin/check_db -a
	cd /usr/local/mailman/lists ; ../bin/check_perms

The errors probably derive from a fumbled edit by me using an older mailman.
I'll do more visual inspection on my most troublesome list.

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Munich
 Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable.
 http://berklix.eu/brexit/#3,500,000_stolen_votes_inc_700,000_in_EU

From anon_777 at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 18 23:11:37 2017
From: anon_777 at hotmail.com (Terry .)
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 03:11:37 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Bounce action notification" emails for
 subscribes/unsubscribes
Message-ID: <KL1PR06MB1045FA7285F186D9C0510B31A9810@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Hi Mark, etc,

I?ve been a happy user of Mailman for years via a webhost on a shared server which runs cPanel.  I?m the list owner for various lists, and in general it?s been working well.  The current Mailman version the webhost have is 2.1.23.

But in recent months I?ve noticed that, as list owner, when I subscribe or unsubscribe someone, instead of just receiving an email with the subject:
    ?<listname> subscription notification?
or:
    ?<listname> unsubscribe notification?
I receive an email with the subject:
    ?Bounce action notification?
Which contains:

    ?This is a Mailman mailing list bounce action notice:

        List:       Bro   [for example]

        Member:     mylistadminaddress at mydomain.com<mailto:mylistadminaddress at mydomain.com>   [for example]

        Action:     Subscription bounce score incremented.

        Reason:     Excessive or fatal bounces.

    The triggering bounce notice is attached below.

    Questions? Contact the Mailman site administrator at mailman at somedomain.com<mailto:mailman at somedomain.com>.?   [for example]



And that email contains an ATTACHMENT which has the subject:
  ?<listname> subscription notification?
or:
  ?<listname> unsubscribe notification?



Notes:
- This didn?t used to happen with these same lists, and I don?t know what?s triggered the change in behaviour.

- Even if I change the list ?owner? address to another of my addresses, it still happens.

- I have admin_notify_mchanges set to ?Yes?.

- I don?t have any moderators set up.



Questions:

Q1. Is this a known issue?

Q2. What?s the likely cause of this problem suddenly starting to happen?

Q3. What?s the likely solution?

Q4. Do you need any more info to troubleshoot the cause of this?  If so, what, exactly?



Thanks.

Terry

From iank at fsf.org  Thu Aug 24 11:39:41 2017
From: iank at fsf.org (Ian Kelling)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2017 08:39:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message stuck in held messages queue. Why,
 how to fix?
Message-ID: <87mv6pkm9u.fsf@x2>

I mark it as accept then submit, the request returns 200, the page
reappears and the message is still there. Why?

Things I wonder if they are related:
* Under the message, it says "The sender is now a member of this list"
* The post goes over http, but the get requests are over https.

It's a private list, running mailman 2.1.13, the url goes like this:
https://site/mailman/admindb/listname

If there's not a good answer, it's not a big deal, just curious. I could
discard the message and see what happens too.

Thanks.

--
Ian Kelling | Senior Systems Administrator, Free Software Foundation
GPG Key: B125 F60B 7B28 7FF6 A2B7  DF8F 170A F0E2 9542 95DF
https://fsf.org | https://gnu.org

From joly at punkcast.com  Sat Aug 19 13:36:55 2017
From: joly at punkcast.com (Joly MacFie)
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 13:36:55 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users being unsubscribed without requesting it.
In-Reply-To: <84o9rbwqsp.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
References: <029c01d318f7$447df310$cd79d930$@com>
 <84o9rbwqsp.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
Message-ID: <CAM9VJk2me9JtH7Bmfx4pqug83AJDXiBe+mDgW_YadxS5KNS_Tw@mail.gmail.com>

Is it possible that others sharing the same ISP could have been
spam-marking and this has led to other subs on ISP getting removed?

I had a spate of nyu.edu unsubs a while back that and that seemed to
possibly be the case. I had to resub people using alt emails.



On Sat, Aug 19, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Keith Seyffarth <weif at weif.net> wrote:

> "Steve Wehr" <steve at tunedinweb.com> writes:
>
> <snip>
>
> > The problem is that when contacted, these users swear they DID NOT
> > unsubscribe themselves. So how can they be getting unsubscribed (with
> > messages in the logs like the one above) but they are not going to the
> > member options page and unsubscribing??
>
> One possibility would be that they are marking these messages as "Junk"
> or "Spam" and their ESP/ISP, either through a manual or automated
> process, is following the unsubscribe link in the email to remove them
> from the list...
>
> --
> ----
> from my mac to yours...
>
> Keith Seyffarth
> mailto:weif at weif.net
> http://www.weif.net/ - Home of the First Tank Guide!
> http://www.rpgcalendar.net/ - the Montana Role-Playing Calendar
> ----
> http://www.miscon.org/ - Montana's Longest Running Science Fiction
> Convention
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/
> mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/
> joly%40punkcast.com
>



-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
--------------------------------------------------------------
-

From joly at punkcast.com  Sun Aug 20 18:35:57 2017
From: joly at punkcast.com (Joly MacFie)
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 18:35:57 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users being unsubscribed without requesting it.
In-Reply-To: <dfd926d78adf447649591838d3902969@nanniandjack.com>
References: <mailman.0.1503158402.23484.mailman-users@python.org>
 <dfd926d78adf447649591838d3902969@nanniandjack.com>
Message-ID: <CAM9VJk2qy-q1D-y4eDJB_yFo+_r0VKucHWvti9S=++6DUvVn6w@mail.gmail.com>

There would still be a confirmation step.



On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 5:39 PM, List Manager <listown at nanniandjack.com>
wrote:

> Steve-
>
> Just a thought, but since the "unsubscribe link" has been part of the
> output of your list, it is possible that someone other than the
> recipient sees the link and clicks on it, either in malice or error
> (trying to unsubscribe themselves)
> --
> Jack Hill, W4KH - BoatAnchors Listowner/Archiver
> listown at nanniandjack.com
> "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose"
> "Il n'y a que les idiots qui ne changent jamais d'idee"
>
>  On 2017-08-19 10:00, Steve Wehr wrote:
>
> > That's the best theory I have heard so far to explain the facts.
> >
> > The user's in question, who are being unsubscribed without asking to be,
> are people who like the mailing lists they are on, and would not be
> flagging emails from the list as spam. Now their ISP might, but they
> wouldn't. The list owners swear to me that these people are friends who
> want their emails.
> >
> > Some further info... I was including a link at the bottom of all emails
> sent by mailman (in the msg_footer field:
> > "Click this link to unsubscribe:
> > %(user_optionsurl)s?password=%(user_password)s&unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"
> >
> > I thought perhaps users were accidentally clicking this and unsubscribing
> > themselves, so I have removed the "&unsubconfirm=1" part of the URL so
> they will have to manually confirm.
> >
> > Maybe this would foil ISPs who are automatically following this link to
> > unsubscribe people. Do ISPs really do this?
> >
> > _____________________
> > Steve Wehr
> > Tunedin Web Design
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Keith Seyffarth [mailto:weif at weif.net]
> > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 10:55 AM
> > To: Steve Wehr
> > Cc: mailman-users at python.org
> > Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Users being unsubscribed without requesting
> it.
> >
> > "Steve Wehr" <steve at tunedinweb.com> writes:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >> The problem is that when contacted, these users swear they DID NOT
> >> unsubscribe themselves. So how can they be getting unsubscribed (with
> >> messages in the logs like the one above) but they are not going to the
> >> member options page and unsubscribing??
> >
> > One possibility would be that they are marking these messages as "Junk"
> > or "Spam" and their ESP/ISP, either through a manual or automated
> process,
> > is following the unsubscribe link in the email to remove them from the
> > list...
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/
> mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/
> joly%40punkcast.com
>



-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
--------------------------------------------------------------
-

From paul.hunt at customsupport.com  Wed Aug 23 14:00:08 2017
From: paul.hunt at customsupport.com (Paul Hunt)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 14:00:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Privacy Options > Sender Filters >
 Accept_these_non-members
Message-ID: <F9256D03-2508-48C6-BC3A-5BC809C499E5@customsupport.com>

Version 2.1.24

According to the documentation, I can set Privacy Options > Sender Filters > Accept_these_non-members to allow members of other local lists to post. It is not working for me.

Example:
Domain: parishplayers.org
List: board at parishplayers.org
I added: @digital to Accept_these_non-members (digital at parishplayers.org is a valid, working list)
It still holds mail from people on the digital mailing list.

Am I doing something wrong?


Thanks,
Paul

paul.hunt at customsupport.com
www.customsupport.com
F ? S = k (the product of freedom and security is a constant)


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Aug 28 18:09:35 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 15:09:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Bounce action notification" emails for
 subscribes/unsubscribes
In-Reply-To: <KL1PR06MB1045FA7285F186D9C0510B31A9810@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <KL1PR06MB1045FA7285F186D9C0510B31A9810@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <d987372f-118a-c7fd-d857-8f33593be199@msapiro.net>

Sorry for the delayed reply. I've been away.

On 08/18/2017 08:11 PM, Terry . wrote:
> 
> But in recent months I?ve noticed that, as list owner, when I subscribe or unsubscribe someone, instead of just receiving an email with the subject:
>     ?<listname> subscription notification?
> or:
>     ?<listname> unsubscribe notification?
> I receive an email with the subject:
>     ?Bounce action notification?
> Which contains:
> 
>     ?This is a Mailman mailing list bounce action notice:
> 
>         List:       Bro   [for example]
> 
>         Member:     mylistadminaddress at mydomain.com   [for example]
> 
>         Action:     Subscription bounce score incremented.
> 
>         Reason:     Excessive or fatal bounces.
> 
>     The triggering bounce notice is attached below.
> 
>     Questions? Contact the Mailman site administrator at mailman at somedomain.com<mailto:mailman at somedomain.com>.?   [for example]
> 
> 
> 
> And that email contains an ATTACHMENT which has the subject:
>   ?<listname> subscription notification?
> or:
>   ?<listname> unsubscribe notification?


This is very strange. What seems to be happening is the (un)subscription
notification is bouncing, causing a bounce notification to be sent to
the list owner, but a bounce notification should only be sent if the
original (bounced) message was to a list member, not the owner.

Also the bounce notification should also have an attached DSN with
details of why the (un)subscription notification bounced. What does that
say?


> Notes:
> - This didn?t used to happen with these same lists, and I don?t know what?s triggered the change in behaviour.
> 
> - Even if I change the list ?owner? address to another of my addresses, it still happens.
> 
> - I have admin_notify_mchanges set to ?Yes?.
> 
> - I don?t have any moderators set up.


OK


> Questions:
> 
> Q1. Is this a known issue?


No


> Q2. What?s the likely cause of this problem suddenly starting to happen?


Post the full raw bounce action notice with all headers and MIME parts
and I might be able to say more.


> Q3. What?s the likely solution?


See Q2


> Q4. Do you need any more info to troubleshoot the cause of this?  If so, what, exactly?


See Q2

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Aug 28 18:34:27 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 15:34:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users being unsubscribed without requesting it.
In-Reply-To: <030601d31900$3bb8af50$b32a0df0$@com>
References: <029c01d318f7$447df310$cd79d930$@com>
 <84o9rbwqsp.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org> <030601d31900$3bb8af50$b32a0df0$@com>
Message-ID: <c0d4ee00-5a00-d927-de6a-8cd31e86abfa@msapiro.net>

On 08/19/2017 08:31 AM, Steve Wehr wrote:
> 
> Some further info... I was including a link at the bottom of all emails sent
> by mailman (in the msg_footer field: 
> "Click this link to unsubscribe:
> %(user_optionsurl)s?password=%(user_password)s&unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" 
> 
> I thought perhaps users were accidentally clicking this and unsubscribing
> themselves, so I have removed the "&unsubconfirm=1" part of the URL so they
> will have to manually confirm.
> 
> Maybe this would foil ISPs who are automatically following this link to
> unsubscribe people. Do ISPs really do this?


Including a link like the above is a very bad idea. It leads to:

A receives a list post.

A forwards the post to friend B

B clicks the unsubscribe link either maliciously or thinking she's been
subscribed to a list.

A is removed from the list.

Do not include the password in the link. Just make it

%(user_optionsurl)s?login-unsub=Unsubscribe

This will send a "Your confirmation is required to leave the xxx mailing
list" message to user A which user A will hopefully ignore.

If you just drop the &unsubconfirm=1, B can still confirm and unsubscribe A.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Aug 28 20:57:25 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 17:57:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Privacy Options > Sender Filters >
 Accept_these_non-members
In-Reply-To: <F9256D03-2508-48C6-BC3A-5BC809C499E5@customsupport.com>
References: <F9256D03-2508-48C6-BC3A-5BC809C499E5@customsupport.com>
Message-ID: <e695297c-3e01-aff8-5165-b00612ecd912@msapiro.net>

On 08/23/2017 11:00 AM, Paul Hunt wrote:
> Version 2.1.24
> 
> According to the documentation, I can set Privacy Options > Sender Filters > Accept_these_non-members to allow members of other local lists to post. It is not working for me.
> 
> Example:
> Domain: parishplayers.org
> List: board at parishplayers.org
> I added: @digital to Accept_these_non-members (digital at parishplayers.org is a valid, working list)
> It still holds mail from people on the digital mailing list.


If this is cPanel (are they up to 2.1.24 yet?), you need to use the
cPanel internal list name, i.e., @digital_parishplayers.org in this case.

If that is not the explanation, what is the reason why the post is held?
Is it 'Post by non-member to a members-only list' or something else?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Aug 28 21:07:57 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 18:07:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message stuck in held messages queue. Why,
 how to fix?
In-Reply-To: <87mv6pkm9u.fsf@x2>
References: <87mv6pkm9u.fsf@x2>
Message-ID: <7c9ffd0b-b830-03e0-0b26-fcb57df12cb3@msapiro.net>

On 08/24/2017 08:39 AM, Ian Kelling wrote:
> I mark it as accept then submit, the request returns 200, the page
> reappears and the message is still there. Why?
> 
> Things I wonder if they are related:
> * Under the message, it says "The sender is now a member of this list"
> * The post goes over http, but the get requests are over https.


See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030602> and steps 2 and 3 at
<https://wiki.list.org/x/17892007>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Aug 28 21:19:53 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 18:19:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] periodic shunts might have been undetected bad
 bounce_matching_headers
In-Reply-To: <201708251329.v7PDTN7B044085@fire.js.berklix.net>
References: <201708251329.v7PDTN7B044085@fire.js.berklix.net>
Message-ID: <f3555f73-1525-4e45-b847-14381c8ac880@msapiro.net>

On 08/25/2017 06:29 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> Hi mailman-users at python.org
> I hope I may have solved some postings being shunted on a few of my lists,
> necessitating occasional
> 	cd /usr/local/mailman; unshunt qfiles/shunt
> 
> I discovered 3 lists had missing '\n', shown with
> 	cd /usr/local/mailman/lists; config_list -o - ListName
> bounce_matching_headers = """# Lines that *start* with a '#' are comments.


What is the rest of this up to the terminating """?

> Fixed with 
> 	cd /usr/local/mailman/lists ; config_list -o ~/tmp/ListName ListName
> 	vi  ~/tmp/ListName ; config_list -i ~/tmp/ListName ListName
> & I hope the shunting will stop.
> 
> I did autopsy snapshots of /usr/local/mailman before & after last unshunt,
> if anyone feels like telling me what to look for.


What is the traceback from the 'shunt' message in Mailman's error log?


> Unfortunately the corrupt bounce_matching_headers lines in configuration
> were undetected by these automatic checks 
> 	cd /usr/local/etc/rc.d; ./mailman stop ; ./mailman start 
> 	cd /usr/local/mailman/lists ; ../bin/check_db -a
> 	cd /usr/local/mailman/lists ; ../bin/check_perms


If bounce_matching_headers contains an invalid line, there should be
entries in Mailman's 'config' log like

'bad bounce_matching_header line: LISTNAME
LINE

or

bad regexp in bounce_matching_header line: LISTNAME
REGEXP (cause: ERROR)


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From jhs at berklix.com  Tue Aug 29 18:59:02 2017
From: jhs at berklix.com (Julian H. Stacey)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 00:59:02 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] periodic shunts might have been undetected bad
 bounce_matching_headers
In-Reply-To: Your message "Mon, 28 Aug 2017 18:19:53 -0700."
 <f3555f73-1525-4e45-b847-14381c8ac880@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <201708292259.v7TMx2QS082082@fire.js.berklix.net>

Hi Mark, thanks for reply.
PS you'r doing a great job answering so many of us :-)

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 08/25/2017 06:29 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > Hi mailman-users at python.org
> > I hope I may have solved some postings being shunted on a few of my lists,
> > necessitating occasional
> > 	cd /usr/local/mailman; unshunt qfiles/shunt
> > 
> > I discovered 3 lists had missing '\n', shown with
> > 	cd /usr/local/mailman/lists; config_list -o - ListName
> > bounce_matching_headers = """# Lines that *start* with a '#' are comments.
> 
> 
> What is the rest of this up to the terminating """?

Ah yes, I see what you mean, Its not a '' line, but a """ block:
Now I have:
	# Note that leading whitespace is trimmed from the regexp.  This can be
	# circumvented in a number of ways, e.g. by escaping or bracketing it.
	bounce_matching_headers = """
	# Lines that *start* with a '#' are comments.
	to: friend at public.com
	message-id: relay.comanche.denmark.eu
	from: list at listme.com
	from: .*@uplinkpro.com"""
	
	## Bounce options
before it was
	# Note that leading whitespace is trimmed from the regexp.  This can be
	# circumvented in a number of ways, e.g. by escaping or bracketing it.
	bounce_matching_headers = """# Lines that *start* with a '#' are comments.
	to: friend at public.com
	message-id: relay.comanche.denmark.eu
	from: list at listme.com
	from: .*@uplinkpro.com"""
	
	## Bounce options

So fixed, but I guess that wasnt the cause of the shunts. 
Especially as I rcall a shunt on one of the other lists that didnt have that damage.


> > Fixed with 
> > 	cd /usr/local/mailman/lists ; config_list -o ~/tmp/ListName ListName
> > 	vi  ~/tmp/ListName ; config_list -i ~/tmp/ListName ListName
> > & I hope the shunting will stop.
> > 
> > I did autopsy snapshots of /usr/local/mailman before & after last unshunt,
> > if anyone feels like telling me what to look for.
> 
> 
> What is the traceback from the 'shunt' message in Mailman's error log?

/usr/local/mailman/logs/error
  (Aside: I also spotted a few other unassociated errors such as Hostile
  listname: & fixed pages that pointed to non existant local Mailman list names)

All my remaining errors now seem to be the same sort:

	NameError: global name 'syslog' is not defined
	
	Aug 23 13:37:16 2017 (82399) SHUNTING: 1503488012.441064+20509f89ec545c49966a4f1d747c804ea1df5852
	Aug 24 20:56:44 2017 (18093) Uncaught runner exception: global name 'syslog' is not defined
	Aug 24 20:56:44 2017 (18093) Traceback (most recent call last):
	  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in _oneloop
	    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
	  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
	    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
	  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130, in _dispose
	    more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline)
	  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153, in _dopipeline
	    sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
	  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py", line 136, in process
	    syslog('vette',
	NameError: global name 'syslog' is not defined
	
	Aug 24 20:56:44 2017 (18093) SHUNTING: 1503601003.748515+0146d084002ddd93cacadc41656c7632efc83301

/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py line 136
	syslog('vette',
                    '%s: Automatically Moderated %s for verbose postings.',
                     mlist.real_name, sender)

	Line 34:	from Mailman import mm_cfg
	Mailman/mm_cfg.py has no syslog
	So I'm searching for syslog in my FreeBSD /usr/ports/mail/mailman 
	Got a bit lost maybe this might be FreeBSD specific,
	Added maintainer of the FreeBSD ports wrapper in case of a hint ?


> > Unfortunately the corrupt bounce_matching_headers lines in configuration
> > were undetected by these automatic checks 
> > 	cd /usr/local/etc/rc.d; ./mailman stop ; ./mailman start 
> > 	cd /usr/local/mailman/lists ; ../bin/check_db -a
> > 	cd /usr/local/mailman/lists ; ../bin/check_perms
> 
> 
> If bounce_matching_headers contains an invalid line, there should be
> entries in Mailman's 'config' log like
> 
> 'bad bounce_matching_header line: LISTNAME
> LINE
> 
> or
> 
> bad regexp in bounce_matching_header line: LISTNAME
> REGEXP (cause: ERROR)

cd /usr/local/mailman/logs
	grep bad *
	grep header *
No other errors, apart from 
	admin: No such list "admin":

Thanks,
Julian
-- 
Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Munich
 Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable.
 http://berklix.eu/brexit/#3,500,000_stolen_votes_inc_700,000_in_EU

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Aug 29 20:56:23 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2017 17:56:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] periodic shunts might have been undetected bad
 bounce_matching_headers
In-Reply-To: <201708292259.v7TMx2QS082082@fire.js.berklix.net>
References: <201708292259.v7TMx2QS082082@fire.js.berklix.net>
Message-ID: <2213f0b5-1f04-5987-7ac3-6bfd68e1f3a1@msapiro.net>

On 08/29/2017 03:59 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:

> Now I have:
> 	# Note that leading whitespace is trimmed from the regexp.  This can be
> 	# circumvented in a number of ways, e.g. by escaping or bracketing it.
> 	bounce_matching_headers = """
> 	# Lines that *start* with a '#' are comments.
> 	to: friend at public.com
> 	message-id: relay.comanche.denmark.eu
> 	from: list at listme.com
> 	from: .*@uplinkpro.com"""
> 	
> 	## Bounce options
> before it was
> 	# Note that leading whitespace is trimmed from the regexp.  This can be
> 	# circumvented in a number of ways, e.g. by escaping or bracketing it.
> 	bounce_matching_headers = """# Lines that *start* with a '#' are comments.
> 	to: friend at public.com
> 	message-id: relay.comanche.denmark.eu
> 	from: list at listme.com
> 	from: .*@uplinkpro.com"""

Actually, the only difference between the two is "Now" has a leading
blank line which won't make any difference as blank lines are ignored.


>> What is the traceback from the 'shunt' message in Mailman's error log?
> 
> /usr/local/mailman/logs/error
>   (Aside: I also spotted a few other unassociated errors such as Hostile
>   listname: & fixed pages that pointed to non existant local Mailman list names)
> 
> All my remaining errors now seem to be the same sort:
> 
> 	NameError: global name 'syslog' is not defined
> 	
> 	Aug 23 13:37:16 2017 (82399) SHUNTING: 1503488012.441064+20509f89ec545c49966a4f1d747c804ea1df5852
> 	Aug 24 20:56:44 2017 (18093) Uncaught runner exception: global name 'syslog' is not defined
> 	Aug 24 20:56:44 2017 (18093) Traceback (most recent call last):
> 	  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in _oneloop
> 	    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
> 	  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
> 	    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
> 	  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130, in _dispose
> 	    more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline)
> 	  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153, in _dopipeline
> 	    sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
> 	  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py", line 136, in process
> 	    syslog('vette',
> 	NameError: global name 'syslog' is not defined
> 	
> 	Aug 24 20:56:44 2017 (18093) SHUNTING: 1503601003.748515+0146d084002ddd93cacadc41656c7632efc83301
> 
> /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py line 136
> 	syslog('vette',
>                     '%s: Automatically Moderated %s for verbose postings.',
>                      mlist.real_name, sender)
> 
> 	Line 34:	from Mailman import mm_cfg


That and the next few lines should be

from Mailman import mm_cfg
from Mailman import Errors
from Mailman import i18n
from Mailman import Utils
from Mailman.Handlers.Hold import hold_for_approval
from Mailman.Logging.Syslog import syslog


It appears the 'from Mailman.Logging.Syslog import syslog' line is missing.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From anon_777 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 30 06:45:35 2017
From: anon_777 at hotmail.com (Terry .)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 10:45:35 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Bounce action notification" emails for
 subscribes/unsubscribes
In-Reply-To: <d987372f-118a-c7fd-d857-8f33593be199@msapiro.net>
References: <KL1PR06MB1045FA7285F186D9C0510B31A9810@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>,
 <d987372f-118a-c7fd-d857-8f33593be199@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <KL1PR06MB1045CD07BAACD5B6E61E97FBA99C0@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your reply, and no problem with the delayed response.  I knew you were away from a note you left.

I don't know what a DSN looks like, but there is only that 1 attachment.

Below is the whole thing including headers and unsubscribe email attachment.

BTW, does this list allow me to attach files?  Might do that next time.

I've obfuscated some parts with "XXX".  Here it is.  See more comments below the email.


Return-Path: <mailman-bounces at serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com>
Delivered-To: terry at XXX.net
Received: from serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com
        by serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com with LMTP id gHWCD8eMplm6SwAA9jRSrA
        for <terry at XXX.net>; Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:00:39 -0500
Return-path: <mailman-bounces at serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com>
Envelope-to: terry at XXX.net
Delivery-date: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:00:39 -0500
Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=58524 helo=serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com)
        by serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.89)
        (envelope-from <mailman-bounces at serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com>)
        id 1dmznb-00069e-4b
        for terry at XXX.net; Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:00:39 -0500
Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=58490 helo=serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com)
 by serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.89)
 (envelope-from <all-bounces at riveXXX.org.nz>)
 id 1dmznZ-000681-Me
 for all-owner at riveXXX.org.nz; Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:00:37 -0500
Subject: Bounce action notification
From: mailman at riveXXX.org.nz
To: all-owner at riveXXX.org.nz
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4320979077890092118=="
Message-ID: <mailman.4.1504087236.1346.all_riveXXX.org.nz at riveXXX.org.nz>
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:00:36 -0500
Precedence: list
X-BeenThere: all at riveXXX.org.nz
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23
List-Id: RLC All <all.riveXXX.org.nz>
X-List-Administrivia: yes
Errors-To: mailman-bounces at serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com
Sender: "ALL" <mailman-bounces at serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com>

--===============4320979077890092118==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This is a Mailman mailing list bounce action notice:

    List:       ALL
    Member:     terry at XXX.net
    Action:     Subscription bounce score incremented.
    Reason:     Excessive or fatal bounces.



The triggering bounce notice is attached below.

Questions? Contact the Mailman site administrator at
mailman at riveXXX.org.nz.

--===============4320979077890092118==
Content-Type: message/rfc822
MIME-Version: 1.0

MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: ALL unsubscribe notification
From: mailman-bounces at riveXXX.org.nz
To: all-owner at riveXXX.org.nz
Precedence: list
Message-ID: <mailman.0.1504087235.23494.all_riveXXX.org.nz at riveXXX.org.nz>
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:00:35 -0500
X-BeenThere: all at riveXXX.org.nz
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23
List-Id: RLC All <all.riveXXX.org.nz>
X-List-Administrivia: yes
Errors-To: mailman-bounces at riveXXX.org.nz
Sender: "ALL" <mailman-bounces at riveXXX.org.nz>

XXX at XXXtraining.co.nz has been removed from ALL.


--===============4320979077890092118==--


That's the end of it.


In this case my email address is both the owner and an UNmoderated member of the list, but I get the same problem when the owner address is not a member of the list at all.  If I click my email address link from the Membership List page, it says this near the top, in case it is relevant:


"We have received some recent bounces from your address. Your current bounce score is 2.0 out of a maximum of 20.0. Please double check that your subscribed address is correct and that there are no problems with delivery to this address. Your bounce score will be automatically reset if the problems are corrected soon."


Also, sometimes I might receive emails relating to subscribes but not unsubscribes.

I think all these problems started happening in the last year or so, on lists which I've had for years without such problems.

Some of my lists still don't seem to have any of these problems, but I haven't worked out what's different about them yet.


I can delete & recreate a list as a test, if required.


Thanks Mark.

Terry

________________________________
From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Sent: 29 August 2017 10:09
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] "Bounce action notification" emails for subscribes/unsubscribes

Sorry for the delayed reply. I've been away.

On 08/18/2017 08:11 PM, Terry . wrote:
>
> But in recent months I?ve noticed that, as list owner, when I subscribe or unsubscribe someone, instead of just receiving an email with the subject:
>     ?<listname> subscription notification?
> or:
>     ?<listname> unsubscribe notification?
> I receive an email with the subject:
>     ?Bounce action notification?
> Which contains:
>
>     ?This is a Mailman mailing list bounce action notice:
>
>         List:       Bro   [for example]
>
>         Member:     mylistadminaddress at mydomain.com   [for example]
>
>         Action:     Subscription bounce score incremented.
>
>         Reason:     Excessive or fatal bounces.
>
>     The triggering bounce notice is attached below.
>
>     Questions? Contact the Mailman site administrator at mailman at somedomain.com<mailto:mailman at somedomain.com>.?   [for example]
>
>
>
> And that email contains an ATTACHMENT which has the subject:
>   ?<listname> subscription notification?
> or:
>   ?<listname> unsubscribe notification?


This is very strange. What seems to be happening is the (un)subscription
notification is bouncing, causing a bounce notification to be sent to
the list owner, but a bounce notification should only be sent if the
original (bounced) message was to a list member, not the owner.

Also the bounce notification should also have an attached DSN with
details of why the (un)subscription notification bounced. What does that
say?


> Notes:
> - This didn?t used to happen with these same lists, and I don?t know what?s triggered the change in behaviour.
>
> - Even if I change the list ?owner? address to another of my addresses, it still happens.
>
> - I have admin_notify_mchanges set to ?Yes?.
>
> - I don?t have any moderators set up.


OK


> Questions:
>
> Q1. Is this a known issue?


No


> Q2. What?s the likely cause of this problem suddenly starting to happen?


Post the full raw bounce action notice with all headers and MIME parts
and I might be able to say more.


> Q3. What?s the likely solution?


See Q2


> Q4. Do you need any more info to troubleshoot the cause of this?  If so, what, exactly?


See Q2

--
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From jhs at berklix.com  Wed Aug 30 11:36:47 2017
From: jhs at berklix.com (Julian H. Stacey)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 17:36:47 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] periodic shunts might have been undetected bad
 bounce_matching_headers
In-Reply-To: Your message "Tue, 29 Aug 2017 17:56:23 -0700."
 <2213f0b5-1f04-5987-7ac3-6bfd68e1f3a1@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <201708301536.v7UFalUi015944@fire.js.berklix.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 08/29/2017 03:59 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> 
> > Now I have:
> > 	# Note that leading whitespace is trimmed from the regexp.  This can be
> > 	# circumvented in a number of ways, e.g. by escaping or bracketing it.
> > 	bounce_matching_headers = """
> > 	# Lines that *start* with a '#' are comments.
> > 	to: friend at public.com
> > 	message-id: relay.comanche.denmark.eu
> > 	from: list at listme.com
> > 	from: .*@uplinkpro.com"""
> > 	
> > 	## Bounce options
> > before it was
> > 	# Note that leading whitespace is trimmed from the regexp.  This can be
> > 	# circumvented in a number of ways, e.g. by escaping or bracketing it.
> > 	bounce_matching_headers = """# Lines that *start* with a '#' are comments.
> > 	to: friend at public.com
> > 	message-id: relay.comanche.denmark.eu
> > 	from: list at listme.com
> > 	from: .*@uplinkpro.com"""
> 
> Actually, the only difference between the two is "Now" has a leading
> blank line which won't make any difference as blank lines are ignored.

OK,


> >> What is the traceback from the 'shunt' message in Mailman's error log?
> > 
> > /usr/local/mailman/logs/error
> >   (Aside: I also spotted a few other unassociated errors such as Hostile
> >   listname: & fixed pages that pointed to non existant local Mailman list names)
> > 
> > All my remaining errors now seem to be the same sort:
> > 
> > 	NameError: global name 'syslog' is not defined
> > 	
> > 	Aug 23 13:37:16 2017 (82399) SHUNTING: 1503488012.441064+20509f89ec545c49966a4f1d747c804ea1df5852
> > 	Aug 24 20:56:44 2017 (18093) Uncaught runner exception: global name 'syslog' is not defined
> > 	Aug 24 20:56:44 2017 (18093) Traceback (most recent call last):
> > 	  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in _oneloop
> > 	    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
> > 	  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
> > 	    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
> > 	  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130, in _dispose
> > 	    more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline)
> > 	  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153, in _dopipeline
> > 	    sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
> > 	  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py", line 136, in process
> > 	    syslog('vette',
> > 	NameError: global name 'syslog' is not defined
> > 	
> > 	Aug 24 20:56:44 2017 (18093) SHUNTING: 1503601003.748515+0146d084002ddd93cacadc41656c7632efc83301
> > 
> > /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py line 136
> > 	syslog('vette',
> >                     '%s: Automatically Moderated %s for verbose postings.',
> >                      mlist.real_name, sender)
> > 
> > 	Line 34:	from Mailman import mm_cfg
> 
> 
> That and the next few lines should be
> 
> from Mailman import mm_cfg
> from Mailman import Errors
> from Mailman import i18n
> from Mailman import Utils
> from Mailman.Handlers.Hold import hold_for_approval
> from Mailman.Logging.Syslog import syslog
> 
> 
> It appears the 'from Mailman.Logging.Syslog import syslog' line is missing.

Yes, it's missing.  Well analysed without seeing it, Thanks !  
So I patched just that line in.  
Mailman 2.1.22 source misses that line. 2.1.23 2.1.24 have it.

2.1.23/NEWS has "Bug Fixes and other patches" ... SpamDetect.py
I'd best upgrade from 2.1.22 to 2.1.24 when I can monitor traffic after.  

I checked in case anything else missing, but all seems OK :-)
  I compared 2.1.22 & 2.1.24, all Handlers/*.py , & SpamDetect.py is
  the only one varying between versions with Mailman.Logging.Syslog .
  Various other Handlers/*.py do not have Mailman.Logging.Syslog
  in 2.1.22 & 2.1.24, but this quick check passes:
  	cd /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers
  	grep -l syslog *.py > ~/tmp/1
  	grep -l Mailman.Logging.Syslog *.py > ~/tmp/2
  	cmp ~/tmp/1 ~/tmp/2
  (But I don't know Python, & not considered other directories, includes, libs).

Thanks Mark!

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Munich
 Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable.
 http://berklix.eu/brexit/#3,500,000_stolen_votes_inc_700,000_in_EU

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Aug 30 14:00:26 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 11:00:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] periodic shunts might have been undetected bad
 bounce_matching_headers
In-Reply-To: <201708301536.v7UFalUi015944@fire.js.berklix.net>
References: <201708301536.v7UFalUi015944@fire.js.berklix.net>
Message-ID: <aa663765-715b-b9be-86e8-8d3e12d601ca@msapiro.net>

On 08/30/2017 08:36 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>
>> It appears the 'from Mailman.Logging.Syslog import syslog' line is missing.
> 
> Yes, it's missing.  Well analysed without seeing it, Thanks !  
> So I patched just that line in.  
> Mailman 2.1.22 source misses that line. 2.1.23 2.1.24 have it.


This is a bug introduced in 2.1.21, never noticed and inadvertently
fixed in 2.1.23. Presumably, it was never noticed before now because it
was introduced with the member verbosity feature and only triggered if
Privacy options... -> Sender filters -> member_verbosity_threshold is
set greater than the default 0 and a "verbose" member is actually set to
moderated.


> 2.1.23/NEWS has "Bug Fixes and other patches" ... SpamDetect.py


But that is in the 2.1.16 section of NEWS.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cuculovic at mdpi.com  Wed Aug 30 08:11:02 2017
From: cuculovic at mdpi.com (Milos Cuculovic)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 14:11:02 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to change the mailman admin email domain
Message-ID: <4FD7EF3D-5BE5-46A5-AB4E-1E6207224047@mdpi.com>

I installed Mailman 2.1.16 today on Ubuntu 14.04.
We are using the email domain lists.xxx.com which worshippers well for mailing lists, however the main domain I am using for normal email is xxx.com.
The problem arises when trying to contact Mailman admin following this instruction:

?If you are having trouble using the lists, please contact mailman at lists.xxx.com.? 

Is there a possibility to setup the xxx.com domain for this sentence, or if not, make an alias so that mailman at lists.xxx.com is forwarded to mailman at xxx.com

Milos Cuculovic

From jhs at berklix.com  Wed Aug 30 20:13:13 2017
From: jhs at berklix.com (Julian H. Stacey)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 02:13:13 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] periodic shunts might have been undetected bad
 bounce_matching_headers
In-Reply-To: Your message "Wed, 30 Aug 2017 11:00:26 -0700."
 <aa663765-715b-b9be-86e8-8d3e12d601ca@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <201708310013.v7V0DDUQ079011@fire.js.berklix.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 08/30/2017 08:36 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > Mark Sapiro wrote:
> >> It appears the 'from Mailman.Logging.Syslog import syslog' line is missing.
> > 
> > Yes, it's missing.  Well analysed without seeing it, Thanks !  
> > So I patched just that line in.  
> > Mailman 2.1.22 source misses that line. 2.1.23 2.1.24 have it.
> 
> 
> This is a bug introduced in 2.1.21, never noticed and inadvertently
> fixed in 2.1.23. Presumably, it was never noticed before now because it
> was introduced with the member verbosity feature and only triggered if
> Privacy options... -> Sender filters -> member_verbosity_threshold is
> set greater than the default 0 and a "verbose" member is actually set to
> moderated.

2.1.24 has defaults 0 300.  My most troublesome list had max 5/week =
	member_verbosity_threshold:	5
	member_verbosity_interval:	604800		
which may have occasionaly triggered correctly, but at least one
of the shunted people was someone who very rarely posts so at least that
shunt was unintended by traffic criteria.


> > 2.1.23/NEWS has "Bug Fixes and other patches" ... SpamDetect.py
> 
> But that is in the 2.1.16 section of NEWS.

Oh yes, I hadn't noticed it was in an old section.
So this is a till now undocumented old fix :-)

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Munich
 Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable.
 http://berklix.eu/brexit/#3,500,000_stolen_votes_inc_700,000_in_EU

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Aug 30 20:46:03 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 17:46:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] periodic shunts might have been undetected bad
 bounce_matching_headers
In-Reply-To: <201708310013.v7V0DDUQ079011@fire.js.berklix.net>
References: <201708310013.v7V0DDUQ079011@fire.js.berklix.net>
Message-ID: <62adde3b-9734-03c7-3156-76fdb1f0146f@msapiro.net>

On 08/30/2017 05:13 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> 
> 2.1.24 has defaults 0 300.  My most troublesome list had max 5/week =
> 	member_verbosity_threshold:	5
> 	member_verbosity_interval:	604800		
> which may have occasionaly triggered correctly, but at least one
> of the shunted people was someone who very rarely posts so at least that
> shunt was unintended by traffic criteria.


With the bug, the shunting will occur whenever a member's moderate flag
is set for verbosity. The exception occurs after the flag is set in the
attempt to log the fact.

Note that with the above settings on the list flagging doesn't require
>5 posts to this list within a week, but >5 posts combined to all lists
with member_verbosity_threshold > 0.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Aug 30 23:32:23 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 20:32:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to change the mailman admin email domain
In-Reply-To: <4FD7EF3D-5BE5-46A5-AB4E-1E6207224047@mdpi.com>
References: <4FD7EF3D-5BE5-46A5-AB4E-1E6207224047@mdpi.com>
Message-ID: <1e8e4284-a2c8-683a-8ef8-4b8590b90687@msapiro.net>

On 08/30/2017 05:11 AM, Milos Cuculovic wrote:
> I installed Mailman 2.1.16 today on Ubuntu 14.04.

You'd be much better off installing 2.1.24 from source. See
<https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/2.1.24/+download/> for the source and
<https://wiki.list.org/x/17891606> for installatipon help.


> We are using the email domain lists.xxx.com which worshippers well for mailing lists, however the main domain I am using for normal email is xxx.com.

"works well" ?


> The problem arises when trying to contact Mailman admin following this instruction:
> 
> ?If you are having trouble using the lists, please contact mailman at lists.xxx.com.? 
> 
> Is there a possibility to setup the xxx.com domain for this sentence, or if not, make an alias so that mailman at lists.xxx.com is forwarded to mailman at xxx.com


mailman at lists.xxx.com is the posting address for the "mailman" site
list. Configure that list to accept non-member posts and subscribe the
addresses that you want to receive that mail.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Aug 31 00:37:02 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 21:37:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Bounce action notification" emails for
 subscribes/unsubscribes
In-Reply-To: <KL1PR06MB1045CD07BAACD5B6E61E97FBA99C0@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <KL1PR06MB1045FA7285F186D9C0510B31A9810@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <d987372f-118a-c7fd-d857-8f33593be199@msapiro.net>
 <KL1PR06MB1045CD07BAACD5B6E61E97FBA99C0@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <191e6b3a-1b62-879e-53de-73d494a6597d@msapiro.net>

On 08/30/2017 03:45 AM, Terry . wrote:
> 
> Below is the whole thing including headers and unsubscribe email attachment.
> 
> BTW, does this list allow me to attach files?  Might do that next time.


You can attach files, but only plain text (MIME types text/plain and
text/x-diff) will make it to the list.


> I've obfuscated some parts with "XXX".  Here it is.  See more comments below the email.
> 
> 
> Return-Path: <mailman-bounces at serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com>
> Delivered-To: terry at XXX.net
> Received: from serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com
>         by serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com with LMTP id gHWCD8eMplm6SwAA9jRSrA
>         for <terry at XXX.net>; Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:00:39 -0500
> Return-path: <mailman-bounces at serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com>
> Envelope-to: terry at XXX.net
> Delivery-date: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:00:39 -0500
> Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=58524 helo=serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com)
>         by serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.89)
>         (envelope-from <mailman-bounces at serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com>)
>         id 1dmznb-00069e-4b
>         for terry at XXX.net; Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:00:39 -0500
> Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=58490 helo=serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com)
>  by serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.89)
>  (envelope-from <all-bounces at riveXXX.org.nz>)
>  id 1dmznZ-000681-Me
>  for all-owner at riveXXX.org.nz; Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:00:37 -0500
> Subject: Bounce action notification
> From: mailman at riveXXX.org.nz
> To: all-owner at riveXXX.org.nz
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4320979077890092118=="
> Message-ID: <mailman.4.1504087236.1346.all_riveXXX.org.nz at riveXXX.org.nz>
> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:00:36 -0500
> Precedence: list
> X-BeenThere: all at riveXXX.org.nz
> X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23
> List-Id: RLC All <all.riveXXX.org.nz>
> X-List-Administrivia: yes
> Errors-To: mailman-bounces at serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com
> Sender: "ALL" <mailman-bounces at serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com>
> 
> --===============4320979077890092118==
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> This is a Mailman mailing list bounce action notice:
> 
>     List:       ALL
>     Member:     terry at XXX.net
>     Action:     Subscription bounce score incremented.
>     Reason:     Excessive or fatal bounces.
> 
> 
> 
> The triggering bounce notice is attached below.
> 
> Questions? Contact the Mailman site administrator at
> mailman at riveXXX.org.nz.
> 
> --===============4320979077890092118==
> Content-Type: message/rfc822
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> 
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Subject: ALL unsubscribe notification
> From: mailman-bounces at riveXXX.org.nz
> To: all-owner at riveXXX.org.nz
> Precedence: list
> Message-ID: <mailman.0.1504087235.23494.all_riveXXX.org.nz at riveXXX.org.nz>
> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:00:35 -0500
> X-BeenThere: all at riveXXX.org.nz
> X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23
> List-Id: RLC All <all.riveXXX.org.nz>
> X-List-Administrivia: yes
> Errors-To: mailman-bounces at riveXXX.org.nz
> Sender: "ALL" <mailman-bounces at riveXXX.org.nz>
> 
> XXX at XXXtraining.co.nz has been removed from ALL.
> 
> 
> --===============4320979077890092118==--
> 
> 
> That's the end of it.
> 
> 
> In this case my email address is both the owner and an UNmoderated member of the list, but I get the same problem when the owner address is not a member of the list at all.


This is very strange. First of all, the "Bounce action notification"
notice about

>     Member:     terry at XXX.net
>     Action:     Subscription bounce score incremented.

should only occur when terry at XXX.net is a member of the list; never when
it's not.

Also, the notice you post has only two MIME parts; the text/plain notice
and the message/rfc822 message that bounced part. This latter part
should normally be the DSN (Delivery Status Notification), not the
message that bounced. Thus, it appears that this message is somehow
being processed as a bounce instead of being sent to the owner.

I would like to see all of the MTA (Exim) log messages relating to the
messages with Message-IDs
<mailman.0.1504087235.23494.all_riveXXX.org.nz at riveXXX.org.nz> and
<mailman.4.1504087236.1346.all_riveXXX.org.nz at riveXXX.org.nz>.

Also, Mailman's bounce, smtp and smtp-failure log messages from around
Wed, 30 Aug 2017 04:45 to 05:01 may help.

Although, this appears to be cPanel, so you may not have access to these
things - see  <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030641>.


> If I click my email address link from the Membership List page, it says this near the top, in case it is relevant:
> 
> 
> "We have received some recent bounces from your address. Your current bounce score is 2.0 out of a maximum of 20.0. Please double check that your subscribed address is correct and that there are no problems with delivery to this address. Your bounce score will be automatically reset if the problems are corrected soon."


That's normal.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cuculovic at mdpi.com  Thu Aug 31 03:41:50 2017
From: cuculovic at mdpi.com (Milos Cuculovic)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 09:41:50 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to change the mailman admin email domain
In-Reply-To: <1e8e4284-a2c8-683a-8ef8-4b8590b90687@msapiro.net>
References: <4FD7EF3D-5BE5-46A5-AB4E-1E6207224047@mdpi.com>
 <1e8e4284-a2c8-683a-8ef8-4b8590b90687@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <39B2442F-02A2-4DC9-A4A7-88183CD3C771@mdpi.com>

Hi ark,

Thank you for your prompt reply.

> You'd be much better off installing 2.1.24 from source.
=> Will do, thx.

> "works well? ?
=> Yes, sorry, my email client changed it automatically.

> Configure that list to accept non-member posts and subscribe the
> addresses that you want to receive that mail.
=> I do not think this is an option / solution to my problem. The text I mentioned ?If you are having trouble using the lists, please contact mailman at lists.xxx.com.? is displayed on the MailMan homepage, so people may click on the email address and send an email. As this email address is inexistent, it will not work. Please correct me if I?m wrong.


Milos

> On 31 Aug 2017, at 05:32, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> 
> On 08/30/2017 05:11 AM, Milos Cuculovic wrote:
>> I installed Mailman 2.1.16 today on Ubuntu 14.04.
> 
> You'd be much better off installing 2.1.24 from source. See
> <https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/2.1.24/+download/> for the source and
> <https://wiki.list.org/x/17891606> for installatipon help.
> 
> 
>> We are using the email domain lists.xxx.com which worshippers well for mailing lists, however the main domain I am using for normal email is xxx.com.
> 
> "works well" ?
> 
> 
>> The problem arises when trying to contact Mailman admin following this instruction:
>> 
>> ?If you are having trouble using the lists, please contact mailman at lists.xxx.com.? 
>> 
>> Is there a possibility to setup the xxx.com domain for this sentence, or if not, make an alias so that mailman at lists.xxx.com is forwarded to mailman at xxx.com
> 
> 
> mailman at lists.xxx.com is the posting address for the "mailman" site
> list. Configure that list to accept non-member posts and subscribe the
> addresses that you want to receive that mail.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/cuculovic%40mdpi.com


From anon_777 at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 31 04:29:57 2017
From: anon_777 at hotmail.com (Terry .)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 08:29:57 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Bounce action notification" emails for
 subscribes/unsubscribes
In-Reply-To: <191e6b3a-1b62-879e-53de-73d494a6597d@msapiro.net>
References: <KL1PR06MB1045FA7285F186D9C0510B31A9810@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <d987372f-118a-c7fd-d857-8f33593be199@msapiro.net>
 <KL1PR06MB1045CD07BAACD5B6E61E97FBA99C0@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>,
 <191e6b3a-1b62-879e-53de-73d494a6597d@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <KL1PR06MB1045D30BD66E3B319402A79FA99D0@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Hi again Mark,


> I would like to see all of the MTA (Exim) log messages relating to the
> messages with Message-IDs
> <mailman.0.1504087235.23494.all_riveXXX.org.nz at riveXXX.org.nz> and
> <mailman.4.1504087236.1346.all_riveXXX.org.nz at riveXXX.org.nz>.

> Also, Mailman's bounce, smtp and smtp-failure log messages from around
> Wed, 30 Aug 2017 04:45 to 05:01 may help.

> Although, this appears to be cPanel, so you may not have access to these
> things - see  <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030641>.


You're right - I don't have such access, but thanks for the interesting link.  I'm not yet sure if the webhost will provide these, but I might ask them if needed.


However, here's the latest development.  I created bugtest1 at whatever-domain.com lists for each of my 7 domains, then for each list, I:

- Set owner to my address,

- Set admin_notify_mchanges to "Yes",

- Took a few other Yes/No options which shouldn't matter, the same for each list),

- Subscribed X address to the list,

- Then unsubscribed X address from the list.

The result was, only 3 of the 7 lists sent me subscription and unsubscribe emails.  The other 4 sent nothing!  (I confirmed this from the command line where I could see the emails which I received a few levels under the ~/mail directory on the server.  I also confirmed the lists are basically the same by dumping & comparing their settings with a Perl script I wrote, which uses Perl's WWW::Mailman module.)


Does it sound as if cPanel or the webhost have caused some problems with the mailman installation?


Should I take this up with the webhost, (who will probably have to pass it on to cPanel), or do you have any ideas?


I'm using cPanel 11 66.0.17, in case anyone is interested.


Thanks again.

Terry

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Thu Aug 31 06:47:36 2017
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 06:47:36 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to change the mailman admin email domain
In-Reply-To: <39B2442F-02A2-4DC9-A4A7-88183CD3C771@mdpi.com>
References: <4FD7EF3D-5BE5-46A5-AB4E-1E6207224047@mdpi.com>
 <1e8e4284-a2c8-683a-8ef8-4b8590b90687@msapiro.net>
 <39B2442F-02A2-4DC9-A4A7-88183CD3C771@mdpi.com>
Message-ID: <006c0a86-c67f-20b3-a5cd-5dae0bec534f@Damon-Family.org>

On 8/31/17 3:41 AM, Milos Cuculovic wrote:
> Hi ark,
>
> Thank you for your prompt reply.
>
>> You'd be much better off installing 2.1.24 from source.
> => Will do, thx.
>
>> "works well? ?
> => Yes, sorry, my email client changed it automatically.
>
>> Configure that list to accept non-member posts and subscribe the
>> addresses that you want to receive that mail.
> => I do not think this is an option / solution to my problem. The text I mentioned ?If you are having trouble using the lists, please contact mailman at lists.xxx.com.? is displayed on the MailMan homepage, so people may click on the email address and send an email. As this email address is inexistent, it will not work. Please correct me if I?m wrong.

Installing Mailman on lists.example.com will automatically create a 
special list, mailman, whose address will be mailman at lists.example.org, 
so the address should exist, that list may not be configured the way you 
want, which is why you were given instructions on how to configure it to 
work the way you want.

>
>
> Milos
>
>> On 31 Aug 2017, at 05:32, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>>
>> On 08/30/2017 05:11 AM, Milos Cuculovic wrote:
>>> I installed Mailman 2.1.16 today on Ubuntu 14.04.
>> You'd be much better off installing 2.1.24 from source. See
>> <https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/2.1.24/+download/> for the source and
>> <https://wiki.list.org/x/17891606> for installatipon help.
>>
>>
>>> We are using the email domain lists.xxx.com which worshippers well for mailing lists, however the main domain I am using for normal email is xxx.com.
>> "works well" ?
>>
>>
>>> The problem arises when trying to contact Mailman admin following this instruction:
>>>
>>> ?If you are having trouble using the lists, please contact mailman at lists.xxx.com.?
>>>
>>> Is there a possibility to setup the xxx.com domain for this sentence, or if not, make an alias so that mailman at lists.xxx.com is forwarded to mailman at xxx.com
>>
>> mailman at lists.xxx.com is the posting address for the "mailman" site
>> list. Configure that list to accept non-member posts and subscribe the
>> addresses that you want to receive that mail.
>>
>> -- 
>> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
>> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-- 
Richard Damon


From cuculovic at mdpi.com  Thu Aug 31 07:03:48 2017
From: cuculovic at mdpi.com (Milos Cuculovic)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 13:03:48 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to change the mailman admin email domain
In-Reply-To: <006c0a86-c67f-20b3-a5cd-5dae0bec534f@Damon-Family.org>
References: <4FD7EF3D-5BE5-46A5-AB4E-1E6207224047@mdpi.com>
 <1e8e4284-a2c8-683a-8ef8-4b8590b90687@msapiro.net>
 <39B2442F-02A2-4DC9-A4A7-88183CD3C771@mdpi.com>
 <006c0a86-c67f-20b3-a5cd-5dae0bec534f@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <1A7B3DC9-D880-4FB3-AD9A-0807A3EEB90D@mdpi.com>

Hi Richard,

I now understand how to do it. Sounds as a good workaround. Thank you all very much for your help.

Disclaimer: The information and files contained in this message are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this message in error, please notify me and delete this message from your system. You may not copy this message in its entirety or in part, or disclose its contents to anyone.

> On 31 Aug 2017, at 12:47, Richard Damon <Richard at Damon-Family.org> wrote:
> 
> On 8/31/17 3:41 AM, Milos Cuculovic wrote:
>> Hi ark,
>> 
>> Thank you for your prompt reply.
>> 
>>> You'd be much better off installing 2.1.24 from source.
>> => Will do, thx.
>> 
>>> "works well? ?
>> => Yes, sorry, my email client changed it automatically.
>> 
>>> Configure that list to accept non-member posts and subscribe the
>>> addresses that you want to receive that mail.
>> => I do not think this is an option / solution to my problem. The text I mentioned ?If you are having trouble using the lists, please contact mailman at lists.xxx.com.? is displayed on the MailMan homepage, so people may click on the email address and send an email. As this email address is inexistent, it will not work. Please correct me if I?m wrong.
> 
> Installing Mailman on lists.example.com <http://lists.example.com/> will automatically create a special list, mailman, whose address will be mailman at lists.example.org <mailto:mailman at lists.example.org>, so the address should exist, that list may not be configured the way you want, which is why you were given instructions on how to configure it to work the way you want.
> 
>> 
>> 
>> Milos
>> 
>>> On 31 Aug 2017, at 05:32, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 08/30/2017 05:11 AM, Milos Cuculovic wrote:
>>>> I installed Mailman 2.1.16 today on Ubuntu 14.04.
>>> You'd be much better off installing 2.1.24 from source. See
>>> <https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/2.1.24/+download/> for the source and
>>> <https://wiki.list.org/x/17891606> for installatipon help.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> We are using the email domain lists.xxx.com which worshippers well for mailing lists, however the main domain I am using for normal email is xxx.com.
>>> "works well" ?
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> The problem arises when trying to contact Mailman admin following this instruction:
>>>> 
>>>> ?If you are having trouble using the lists, please contact mailman at lists.xxx.com.?
>>>> 
>>>> Is there a possibility to setup the xxx.com domain for this sentence, or if not, make an alias so that mailman at lists.xxx.com is forwarded to mailman at xxx.com
>>> 
>>> mailman at lists.xxx.com is the posting address for the "mailman" site
>>> list. Configure that list to accept non-member posts and subscribe the
>>> addresses that you want to receive that mail.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
>>> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> 
> -- 
> Richard Damon
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/cuculovic%40mdpi.com


From jhs at berklix.com  Thu Aug 31 09:26:40 2017
From: jhs at berklix.com (Julian H. Stacey)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 15:26:40 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] periodic shunts might have been undetected bad
 bounce_matching_headers
In-Reply-To: Your message "Wed, 30 Aug 2017 17:46:03 -0700."
 <62adde3b-9734-03c7-3156-76fdb1f0146f@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <201708311326.v7VDQe5d008197@fire.js.berklix.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 08/30/2017 05:13 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > 
> > 2.1.24 has defaults 0 300.  My most troublesome list had max 5/week =
> > 	member_verbosity_threshold:	5
> > 	member_verbosity_interval:	604800		
> > which may have occasionaly triggered correctly, but at least one
> > of the shunted people was someone who very rarely posts so at least that
> > shunt was unintended by traffic criteria.
> 
> 
> With the bug, the shunting will occur whenever a member's moderate flag
> is set for verbosity. The exception occurs after the flag is set in the
> attempt to log the fact.
> 
> Note that with the above settings on the list flagging doesn't require
> >5 posts to this list within a week, but >5 posts combined to all lists
> with member_verbosity_threshold > 0.

I hadn't realised that.  Explains why I saw so many shunts. 
I've reverted my lists to defaults.  Thanks.

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Munich
 Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable.
 http://berklix.eu/brexit/#3,500,000_stolen_votes_inc_700,000_in_EU

From james at dorydesign.com  Thu Aug 31 11:55:54 2017
From: james at dorydesign.com (Jim Dory)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 07:55:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Bounce action notification" emails for
 subscribes/unsubscribes
In-Reply-To: <KL1PR06MB1045D30BD66E3B319402A79FA99D0@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <KL1PR06MB1045FA7285F186D9C0510B31A9810@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <d987372f-118a-c7fd-d857-8f33593be199@msapiro.net>
 <KL1PR06MB1045CD07BAACD5B6E61E97FBA99C0@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <191e6b3a-1b62-879e-53de-73d494a6597d@msapiro.net>
 <KL1PR06MB1045D30BD66E3B319402A79FA99D0@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAKhfoy09JpGKXR6W6yiGOrU7316CzfXe+_yScw4q3Cun8sU2qw@mail.gmail.com>

For what it is worth, I've stopped getting subscribe/unsubscribe notices
too on my one list hosted on CPanel/virtual server. Perhaps months ago. I
figured it was over my head to figure out, so reading this thread to see if
anything easy presents as a solution.   /jim

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 12:29 AM, Terry . <anon_777 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hi again Mark,
>
>
> > I would like to see all of the MTA (Exim) log messages relating to the
> > messages with Message-IDs
> > <mailman.0.1504087235.23494.all_riveXXX.org.nz at riveXXX.org.nz> and
> > <mailman.4.1504087236.1346.all_riveXXX.org.nz at riveXXX.org.nz>.
>
> > Also, Mailman's bounce, smtp and smtp-failure log messages from around
> > Wed, 30 Aug 2017 04:45 to 05:01 may help.
>
> > Although, this appears to be cPanel, so you may not have access to these
> > things - see  <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030641>.
>
>
> You're right - I don't have such access, but thanks for the interesting
> link.  I'm not yet sure if the webhost will provide these, but I might ask
> them if needed.
>
>
> However, here's the latest development.  I created
> bugtest1 at whatever-domain.com lists for each of my 7 domains, then for
> each list, I:
>
> - Set owner to my address,
>
> - Set admin_notify_mchanges to "Yes",
>
> - Took a few other Yes/No options which shouldn't matter, the same for
> each list),
>
> - Subscribed X address to the list,
>
> - Then unsubscribed X address from the list.
>
> The result was, only 3 of the 7 lists sent me subscription and unsubscribe
> emails.  The other 4 sent nothing!  (I confirmed this from the command line
> where I could see the emails which I received a few levels under the ~/mail
> directory on the server.  I also confirmed the lists are basically the same
> by dumping & comparing their settings with a Perl script I wrote, which
> uses Perl's WWW::Mailman module.)
>
>
> Does it sound as if cPanel or the webhost have caused some problems with
> the mailman installation?
>
>
> Should I take this up with the webhost, (who will probably have to pass it
> on to cPanel), or do you have any ideas?
>
>
> I'm using cPanel 11 66.0.17, in case anyone is interested.
>
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Terry
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/
> mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/
> james%40dorydesign.com
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Aug 31 22:15:48 2017
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 19:15:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Bounce action notification" emails for
 subscribes/unsubscribes
In-Reply-To: <KL1PR06MB1045D30BD66E3B319402A79FA99D0@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <KL1PR06MB1045FA7285F186D9C0510B31A9810@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <d987372f-118a-c7fd-d857-8f33593be199@msapiro.net>
 <KL1PR06MB1045CD07BAACD5B6E61E97FBA99C0@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <191e6b3a-1b62-879e-53de-73d494a6597d@msapiro.net>
 <KL1PR06MB1045D30BD66E3B319402A79FA99D0@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <12d44c51-bd5c-683c-e122-06db5a66a26a@msapiro.net>

On 08/31/2017 01:29 AM, Terry . wrote:
> 
> However, here's the latest development.  I created bugtest1 at whatever-domain.com lists for each of my 7 domains, then for each list, I:
> 
> - Set owner to my address,
> 
> - Set admin_notify_mchanges to "Yes",
> 
> - Took a few other Yes/No options which shouldn't matter, the same for each list),
> 
> - Subscribed X address to the list,
> 
> - Then unsubscribed X address from the list.
> 
> The result was, only 3 of the 7 lists sent me subscription and unsubscribe emails.  The other 4 sent nothing!


Are the list's archiving? Does anything end up in the list archives,
i.e., posted to the list?


> Does it sound as if cPanel or the webhost have caused some problems with the mailman installation?


Yes, it does.


> Should I take this up with the webhost, (who will probably have to pass it on to cPanel), or do you have any ideas?


I am out of ideas. I am willing to work with the webhost and/or cPanel
if they contact me, but I don't think I can do any more without
information that's not available to you.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From james at dorydesign.com  Thu Aug 31 22:31:48 2017
From: james at dorydesign.com (Jim Dory)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 18:31:48 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] "Bounce action notification" emails for
 subscribes/unsubscribes
In-Reply-To: <12d44c51-bd5c-683c-e122-06db5a66a26a@msapiro.net>
References: <KL1PR06MB1045FA7285F186D9C0510B31A9810@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <d987372f-118a-c7fd-d857-8f33593be199@msapiro.net>
 <KL1PR06MB1045CD07BAACD5B6E61E97FBA99C0@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <191e6b3a-1b62-879e-53de-73d494a6597d@msapiro.net>
 <KL1PR06MB1045D30BD66E3B319402A79FA99D0@KL1PR06MB1045.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <12d44c51-bd5c-683c-e122-06db5a66a26a@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAKhfoy3jfkmjAPBO-JC=5Zd=_ONFPjH95ZfZZWWL9dcByNJwSg@mail.gmail.com>

I have root access to my server and I'm not getting the
subscribe/unsubscribe notices for our mailing list. If it would help I can
look something up. However, this isn't my day job so I would need cookbook
style instructions. I have ssh ability as well as their WHM interface.

That said, not sure we have the same problem.   /jim

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 6:15 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 08/31/2017 01:29 AM, Terry . wrote:
> >
> > However, here's the latest development.  I created
> bugtest1 at whatever-domain.com lists for each of my 7 domains, then for
> each list, I:
> >
> > - Set owner to my address,
> >
> > - Set admin_notify_mchanges to "Yes",
> >
> > - Took a few other Yes/No options which shouldn't matter, the same for
> each list),
> >
> > - Subscribed X address to the list,
> >
> > - Then unsubscribed X address from the list.
> >
> > The result was, only 3 of the 7 lists sent me subscription and
> unsubscribe emails.  The other 4 sent nothing!
>
>
> Are the list's archiving? Does anything end up in the list archives,
> i.e., posted to the list?
>
>
> > Does it sound as if cPanel or the webhost have caused some problems with
> the mailman installation?
>
>
> Yes, it does.
>
>
> > Should I take this up with the webhost, (who will probably have to pass
> it on to cPanel), or do you have any ideas?
>
>
> I am out of ideas. I am willing to work with the webhost and/or cPanel
> if they contact me, but I don't think I can do any more without
> information that's not available to you.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/
> mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/
> james%40dorydesign.com
>