From sm at noisynotes.com  Thu Oct  1 07:35:02 2015
From: sm at noisynotes.com (Steve Matzura)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2015 01:35:02 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message may contain ... administrivia?
Message-ID: <tchp0bpebmgp75m3die9vaoba01gh9k4r9@4ax.com>

Well now I've seen everything. Why would Mailman send a return message
to a subscriber to a mailing list that says their message couldn't be
posted to the mailing list because "message may contain
administrivia"?

From lac at openend.se  Thu Oct  1 08:56:57 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2015 08:56:57 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message may contain ... administrivia?
In-Reply-To: <tchp0bpebmgp75m3die9vaoba01gh9k4r9@4ax.com>
References: <tchp0bpebmgp75m3die9vaoba01gh9k4r9@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <201510010656.t916uvPn008269@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Thu, 01 Oct 2015 01:35:02 -0400, Steve Matzura writes:
>Well now I've seen everything. Why would Mailman send a return message
>to a subscriber to a mailing list that says their message couldn't be
>posted to the mailing list because "message may contain
>administrivia".

If your subject contains just one of these words, or this word
followed by a reasonable number of arguments, or if the content
of your message is again, one line, one of these words, or one of them
followed by a reasonable number of arguments, then your message can
be held.

ADMINDATA = {
    # admin keyword: (minimum #args, maximum #args)
    'confirm':     (1, 1),
    'help':        (0, 0),
    'info':        (0, 0),
    'lists':       (0, 0),
    'options':     (0, 0),
    'password':    (2, 2),
    'remove':      (0, 0),
    'set':         (3, 3),
    'subscribe':   (0, 3),
    'unsubscribe': (0, 1),
    'who':         (0, 0),
    }


You can turn this off. Under general options, look for
(Administrivia filter) Check postings and intercept ones that seem to be administrative requests?

I mostly turn mine off, as I haven't found it very useful. It would be
a good idea if your list was plagued by people trying to be sophisticated
in using the list commands and mailing the list rather than list-request.
This sort of thing happens to me about once every 5 years, over the
management of a large number of lists.  It is more common for me to get
mail on lists Subject: I don't understand this error

Help <some wretched error number generated by microsoft>


I am curious -- does mailman 3 have this feature?

Laura


From lac at openend.se  Thu Oct  1 09:06:05 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2015 09:06:05 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message may contain ... administrivia?
In-Reply-To: <201510010656.t916uvPn008269@fido.openend.se>
References: <tchp0bpebmgp75m3die9vaoba01gh9k4r9@4ax.com>
 <201510010656.t916uvPn008269@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <201510010706.t91765Vi009100@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Thu, 01 Oct 2015 08:56:57 +0200, Laura Creighton writes:

>management of a large number of lists.  It is more common for me to get
>mail on lists Subject: I don't understand this error
>
>Help <some wretched error number generated by microsoft>

Hmmm.  On further thought, I think that one would go through.
Its mail with the subject:
I don't understand Microsoft error XXXXXXX
and the content
Help

that I don't want caught, so I turn the thing off.

Laura

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct  1 17:15:10 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 08:15:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message may contain ... administrivia?
In-Reply-To: <201510010656.t916uvPn008269@fido.openend.se>
References: <tchp0bpebmgp75m3die9vaoba01gh9k4r9@4ax.com>
 <201510010656.t916uvPn008269@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <560D4DFE.4070106@msapiro.net>

On 09/30/2015 11:56 PM, Laura Creighton wrote:
> 
> I am curious -- does mailman 3 have this feature?


Yes. See
<http://mailman.readthedocs.org/en/latest/src/mailman/rules/docs/administrivia.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From bryan at skiblack.com  Thu Oct  1 17:10:35 2015
From: bryan at skiblack.com (Bryan Blackwell)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 11:10:35 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message may contain ... administrivia?
In-Reply-To: <tchp0bpebmgp75m3die9vaoba01gh9k4r9@4ax.com>
References: <tchp0bpebmgp75m3die9vaoba01gh9k4r9@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <D0D478CD-E2DC-4EFE-BF12-00CDBB77E6E0@skiblack.com>


> On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:35 AM, Steve Matzura <sm at noisynotes.com> wrote:
> 
> Well now I've seen everything. Why would Mailman send a return message
> to a subscriber to a mailing list that says their message couldn't be
> posted to the mailing list because "message may contain
> administrivia"?

When e-mail lists had no web interface, subscribers would often send admin commands - "unsubscribe", "set digest", etc., to the actual list instead of the admin address.  This was pretty common when MJ lists were ported to MM.  Those filters are in place to catch those, in part to avoid the follow on "RTFM" posts to the main list.

Probably just as well to turn them off, most people use the web interface nowadays and have for some time.

--Bryan


From brad at fineby.me.uk  Thu Oct  1 17:35:36 2015
From: brad at fineby.me.uk (Brad Rogers)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 16:35:36 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message may contain ... administrivia?
In-Reply-To: <D0D478CD-E2DC-4EFE-BF12-00CDBB77E6E0@skiblack.com>
References: <tchp0bpebmgp75m3die9vaoba01gh9k4r9@4ax.com>
 <D0D478CD-E2DC-4EFE-BF12-00CDBB77E6E0@skiblack.com>
Message-ID: <20151001163536.1abb00c0@abydos.stargate.org.uk>

On Thu, 1 Oct 2015 11:10:35 -0400
Bryan Blackwell <bryan at skiblack.com> wrote:

Hello Bryan,

>When e-mail lists had no web interface, subscribers would often send
>admin commands - "unsubscribe", "set digest", etc., to the actual list

Sadly, many people still do.  Despite the appearance of footer notes
telling them where to send admin stuff.   :-(

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Well I don't want you to think I'm being obscene
Fish - The Damned
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From rb211 at tds.net  Thu Oct  1 18:04:37 2015
From: rb211 at tds.net (William Bagwell)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 12:04:37 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message may contain ... administrivia?
In-Reply-To: <D0D478CD-E2DC-4EFE-BF12-00CDBB77E6E0@skiblack.com>
References: <tchp0bpebmgp75m3die9vaoba01gh9k4r9@4ax.com>
 <D0D478CD-E2DC-4EFE-BF12-00CDBB77E6E0@skiblack.com>
Message-ID: <201510011204.37463.rb211@tds.net>

On Thursday 01 October 2015, Bryan Blackwell wrote:
> Probably just as well to turn them off, most people use the web interface
> nowadays and have for some time.

Very long time for some of us, almost got kicked off of a mailing list about 
15 years ago when I discovered List Serve had added a web interface before 
the list owner knew. Accused me of 'hacking' :-O Same guy later moved that 
list to Mailman 2.0.6 which was how I learned of its existence.
-- 
William

From take at nerd.fi  Thu Oct  1 20:39:46 2015
From: take at nerd.fi (Take)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2015 21:39:46 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems on mailman3 installation via
	mailman-bundler
In-Reply-To: <560ACA4C.5050108@msapiro.net>
References: <5609BFA6.6040100@nerd.fi> <560ACA4C.5050108@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <560D7DF2.6000707@nerd.fi>

On 09/29/2015 08:28 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> No. The address which is the problem is the sender address of the post
> that is being held. Mailman is attempting to notify the poster that her
> post is being held for moderation and the poster's address appears to be
> invalid. This is normally the address in the From: header of the post,
> but can be another address depending on the message itself and the
> [mailman] -> sender_headers configuration.

I'll verify this again, however I'm suspecting that this is a some sort 
of bug in mailman configuration, since the domain I'm using for testing 
is dedicated to mailman and (as far as I can understand) mailman should 
take care of it's own email addresses automatically.

I tried to browse trough the code, but I'm not that competent with 
python that I could see any problems immediately. However I'll try to 
debug this problem further now since I have atleast some clue about 
where to look from.


> The debug information is the traceback from the 'error' log which you
> post above. I'm not completely sure about MM 3, but in MM 2.1 in order
> to write anything to a debug log, you actually have to insert the
> logging calls in the code.

As I browsed trough the code I saw calls to function log.debug(), which 
suggested to me that there should be atleast something on the debug log, 
but since the documentation (atleast the ones I have found) for mailman3 
are shallow at best I couldn't confirm if there's any configuration 
options to specifically enable debugging.


> Questions about Mailman 3 are better posted to the
> mailman-developers at python.org list
> <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers>. Please
> join that list if you are not already a member and post there.

I assumed that user-list is for stable releases, which mailman3 has been 
for couple of months now, but I'll subscribe to developers list as well 
and post results from my debugging to there. Thank you for your time, I 
really appreciate it.

-- 
Take

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct  1 21:22:35 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 12:22:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems on mailman3 installation via
 mailman-bundler
In-Reply-To: <560D7DF2.6000707@nerd.fi>
References: <5609BFA6.6040100@nerd.fi> <560ACA4C.5050108@msapiro.net>
 <560D7DF2.6000707@nerd.fi>
Message-ID: <560D87FB.30704@msapiro.net>

On 10/01/2015 11:39 AM, Take wrote:
> On 09/29/2015 08:28 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> No. The address which is the problem is the sender address of the post
>> that is being held. Mailman is attempting to notify the poster that her
>> post is being held for moderation and the poster's address appears to be
>> invalid. This is normally the address in the From: header of the post,
>> but can be another address depending on the message itself and the
>> [mailman] -> sender_headers configuration.
> 
> I'll verify this again, however I'm suspecting that this is a some sort
> of bug in mailman configuration, since the domain I'm using for testing
> is dedicated to mailman and (as far as I can understand) mailman should
> take care of it's own email addresses automatically.


The email address of the sender of the post doesn't pass the test in
mailman/email/validate.py. This means it contains a space or begins with
a '-' or contains or a non-printable ascii character or an ascii
printable character in the set

][()<>|;^,

It also must be a fully qualified address with at least one '.' in the
domain.


> As I browsed trough the code I saw calls to function log.debug(), which
> suggested to me that there should be atleast something on the debug log,
> but since the documentation (atleast the ones I have found) for mailman3
> are shallow at best I couldn't confirm if there's any configuration
> options to specifically enable debugging.


log.debug() will write a 'debug' level log message to the log file which
is defined in the 'log' instance.

For example, just to pick one, the module mailman/mta/connection.py contains

log = logging.getLogger('mailman.smtp')

and a few calls to log.debug(). In this case, all those calls will write
to the 'smtp' log with level = debug


>> Questions about Mailman 3 are better posted to the
>> mailman-developers at python.org list
>> <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers>. Please
>> join that list if you are not already a member and post there.
> 
> I assumed that user-list is for stable releases, which mailman3 has been
> for couple of months now, but I'll subscribe to developers list as well
> and post results from my debugging to there. Thank you for your time, I
> really appreciate it.


We are trying to get there. We will have a mailman3-users at mailman3.org
list running under Mailman 3, but we're not quite there yet. In the mean
time mailman-developers at python.org is the best place for Mailman 3 issues.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From take at nerd.fi  Thu Oct  1 21:55:55 2015
From: take at nerd.fi (Take)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2015 22:55:55 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problems on mailman3 installation via
	mailman-bundler
In-Reply-To: <560D87FB.30704@msapiro.net>
References: <5609BFA6.6040100@nerd.fi> <560ACA4C.5050108@msapiro.net>
 <560D7DF2.6000707@nerd.fi> <560D87FB.30704@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <560D8FCB.8030108@nerd.fi>

On 10/01/2015 10:22 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> The email address of the sender of the post doesn't pass the test in
> mailman/email/validate.py. This means it contains a space or begins with
> a '-' or contains or a non-printable ascii character or an ascii
> printable character in the set
>
> ][()<>|;^,
>
> It also must be a fully qualified address with at least one '.' in the
> domain.

I added some logging (and posted details to dev-list) as well, 
apparently the part raising exception is:

if not self.is_valid(email):
    raise InvalidEmailAddressError(email)

However, the variable 'email' is empty, which obviously doesn't qualify 
as an valid email address. I haven't yet got further about why the 
variable doesn't contain anything.

-- 
Take

From danijel.domazet at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 12:15:46 2015
From: danijel.domazet at gmail.com (Danijel Domazet)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 12:15:46 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bulk aproval?
Message-ID: <CAL5QDY46k7O4a_qCWjtTJYj8suzP=-jphS4xRXES1SP0h7Nv8A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi mailman list,
I have about 500 requests to join the list waiting to be approved.

1. Is there a way of automatically aproving any request, something like an
"open" free list to join for everyone?

2. How do I bulk approve those 500? Currently it seems I will have to click
500 times on the "Approve" checkbox, which is a pain.

Thanks for help,
Danijel

From Jeffrey.Westgate at arkansas.gov  Thu Oct  1 15:05:04 2015
From: Jeffrey.Westgate at arkansas.gov (Jeffrey Westgate)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 13:05:04 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] monthly reminders not being sent
Message-ID: <A36B14FA9AA67F4E836C0EE59DEA89C4F41D3E2E@CM-SAS-MBX-06.sas.arkgov.net>

Greetings all;

I'm a relative noob to the list server realm, having inherited 60-odd lists running on a few different servers 4months ago from a coworker who passed on. The following week our list server crashed hard - disk issue on old hardware.

I've rebuilt and recovered all the active lists, collapsed three (or was it four...?) separate servers/aliases into one, purged a few old and unused lists, and even added some new ones since - we're hovering at just about 50 lists.  I've build the new box as a VMWare VM running Scientific Linux 7 x86_64, with Mailman v2.1.20.

Users are happy, things seem to be stable and humming along nicely... except for one thing I have not been able to get sorted -

monthly password reminders are not being sent. The 'send me' is set to Yes on the list page.

If I go the the list page and tell it to send me a reminder, it does.

I've checked the docs and wiki.  I'm fairly sure this is a (probably) simple config issue, but my lack of experience with Mailman is hindering me.

Someone point me in the right direction, please?


--
Jeff Westgate
State of Arkansas DIS UNIX System Administration




From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct  2 17:13:33 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 08:13:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bulk aproval?
In-Reply-To: <CAL5QDY46k7O4a_qCWjtTJYj8suzP=-jphS4xRXES1SP0h7Nv8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL5QDY46k7O4a_qCWjtTJYj8suzP=-jphS4xRXES1SP0h7Nv8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <560E9F1D.4@msapiro.net>

On 10/2/15 3:15 AM, Danijel Domazet wrote:
>
> I have about 500 requests to join the list waiting to be approved.
> 
> 1. Is there a way of automatically aproving any request, something like an
> "open" free list to join for everyone?


Set Privacy options... -> Subscription rules -> subscribe_policy to
Confirm or if ALLOW_OPEN_SUBSCRIBE is set to Yes in mm_cfg.py and you
want to allow spammers to subscribe without at least confirmation, set
subscribe_policy to None.

Also, in Mailman 2.1.20 and up there is a subscribe_auto_approval list
of addresses and regexps whose subscriptions do not require approval
when subscribe_policy requires it.


> 2. How do I bulk approve those 500? Currently it seems I will have to click
> 500 times on the "Approve" checkbox, which is a pain.


If you have command line access to the server, see the script at
<https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/list_requests>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct  2 17:31:52 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 08:31:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] monthly reminders not being sent
In-Reply-To: <A36B14FA9AA67F4E836C0EE59DEA89C4F41D3E2E@CM-SAS-MBX-06.sas.arkgov.net>
References: <A36B14FA9AA67F4E836C0EE59DEA89C4F41D3E2E@CM-SAS-MBX-06.sas.arkgov.net>
Message-ID: <560EA368.4070409@msapiro.net>

On 10/1/15 6:05 AM, Jeffrey Westgate wrote:
> 
> Users are happy, things seem to be stable and humming along nicely... except for one thing I have not been able to get sorted -
> 
> monthly password reminders are not being sent. The 'send me' is set to Yes on the list page.


Monthly reminders and some other things are done by cron. See
<http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node41.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From sm at noisynotes.com  Sat Oct  3 01:46:04 2015
From: sm at noisynotes.com (Steve Matzura)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2015 19:46:04 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message may contain ... administrivia?
In-Reply-To: <201510010656.t916uvPn008269@fido.openend.se>
References: <tchp0bpebmgp75m3die9vaoba01gh9k4r9@4ax.com>
 <201510010656.t916uvPn008269@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <ho5u0blfq3asoi22uttjsqd02ih9k09jka@4ax.com>

Guilty as charged. On several counts. Oy!

On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 08:56:57 +0200, you wrote:

>In a message of Thu, 01 Oct 2015 01:35:02 -0400, Steve Matzura writes:
>>Well now I've seen everything. Why would Mailman send a return message
>>to a subscriber to a mailing list that says their message couldn't be
>>posted to the mailing list because "message may contain
>>administrivia".
>
>If your subject contains just one of these words, or this word
>followed by a reasonable number of arguments, or if the content
>of your message is again, one line, one of these words, or one of them
>followed by a reasonable number of arguments, then your message can
>be held.
>
>ADMINDATA = {
>    # admin keyword: (minimum #args, maximum #args)
>    'confirm':     (1, 1),
>    'help':        (0, 0),
>    'info':        (0, 0),
>    'lists':       (0, 0),
>    'options':     (0, 0),
>    'password':    (2, 2),
>    'remove':      (0, 0),
>    'set':         (3, 3),
>    'subscribe':   (0, 3),
>    'unsubscribe': (0, 1),
>    'who':         (0, 0),
>    }
>
>
>You can turn this off. Under general options, look for
>(Administrivia filter) Check postings and intercept ones that seem to be administrative requests?
>
>I mostly turn mine off, as I haven't found it very useful. It would be
>a good idea if your list was plagued by people trying to be sophisticated
>in using the list commands and mailing the list rather than list-request.
>This sort of thing happens to me about once every 5 years, over the
>management of a large number of lists.  It is more common for me to get
>mail on lists Subject: I don't understand this error
>
>Help <some wretched error number generated by microsoft>
>
>
>I am curious -- does mailman 3 have this feature?
>
>Laura
>

From aj at adityaj.in  Sat Oct  3 00:00:21 2015
From: aj at adityaj.in (Aditya Jain)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 03:30:21 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Limiting number of failed login attempts
Message-ID: <560EFE75.9020908@adityaj.in>

Hi All,

Greetings for the day!

I am currently using mailman package from debian repository.
I use mailman for a number of private mailing lists. The archives of
these mailing lists is also private.

Most of the members of these mailing lists do not change their default
mailman passwords, which in my installation means 8 characters of a-z.

Is there a way in which I can limit the number of failed login attempts
to the archive to prevent a brute force attempt?


Thanks & Regards
Aditya Jain

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Oct  3 15:14:43 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 06:14:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Limiting number of failed login attempts
In-Reply-To: <560EFE75.9020908@adityaj.in>
References: <560EFE75.9020908@adityaj.in>
Message-ID: <560FD4C3.9000805@msapiro.net>

On 10/2/15 3:00 PM, Aditya Jain wrote:
> 
> Is there a way in which I can limit the number of failed login attempts
> to the archive to prevent a brute force attempt?


In recent Mailman, both the private CGI and the options CGI return a 401
Unauthorized status for a failed login. This makes it easy to use
something like fail2ban to block an IP after a number of failed attempts.

Also, You can generate more secure passwords by setting

USER_FRIENDLY_PASSWORDS = No

in mm_cfg.py, and you can make them longer by setting
MEMBER_PASSWORD_LENGTH = a number > 8.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From aj at adityaj.in  Sat Oct  3 20:51:24 2015
From: aj at adityaj.in (Aditya Jain)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 00:21:24 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Limiting number of failed login attempts
In-Reply-To: <560FD4C3.9000805@msapiro.net>
References: <560EFE75.9020908@adityaj.in> <560FD4C3.9000805@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <561023AC.7040805@adityaj.in>

Hi,

Thanks! At the moment I don't have a separate IP for mailman. Therefore
I cannot use fail2ban. But hopefully, a really long password should be
enough to discourage a simple brute force.

Thanks & Regards
Aditya Jain

On Saturday 03 October 2015 06:44 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/2/15 3:00 PM, Aditya Jain wrote:
>> Is there a way in which I can limit the number of failed login attempts
>> to the archive to prevent a brute force attempt?
>
> In recent Mailman, both the private CGI and the options CGI return a 401
> Unauthorized status for a failed login. This makes it easy to use
> something like fail2ban to block an IP after a number of failed attempts.
>
> Also, You can generate more secure passwords by setting
>
> USER_FRIENDLY_PASSWORDS = No
>
> in mm_cfg.py, and you can make them longer by setting
> MEMBER_PASSWORD_LENGTH = a number > 8.
>


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Oct  4 03:58:21 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 18:58:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Limiting number of failed login attempts
In-Reply-To: <561023AC.7040805@adityaj.in>
References: <560EFE75.9020908@adityaj.in> <560FD4C3.9000805@msapiro.net>
 <561023AC.7040805@adityaj.in>
Message-ID: <561087BD.9090505@msapiro.net>

On 10/3/15 11:51 AM, Aditya Jain wrote:
> 
> Thanks! At the moment I don't have a separate IP for mailman. Therefore
> I cannot use fail2ban. But hopefully, a really long password should be
> enough to discourage a simple brute force.


I'm not sure if you understand fail2ban. See
<http://www.fail2ban.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page>.

fail2ban runs on (in this case) the machine on which Mailman's web
interface runs. It monitors the web server logs and looks for (in this
case) a minimum number of 401 errors within a given time window from a
single IP and if found uses iptables or similar to block access from
that IP for a defined time.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From aj at adityaj.in  Sun Oct  4 08:13:55 2015
From: aj at adityaj.in (Aditya Jain)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 11:43:55 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Limiting number of failed login attempts
In-Reply-To: <561087BD.9090505@msapiro.net>
References: <560EFE75.9020908@adityaj.in> <560FD4C3.9000805@msapiro.net>
 <561023AC.7040805@adityaj.in> <561087BD.9090505@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <5610C3A3.7090008@adityaj.in>

Hi,

Thanks for pointing me to the manual.

On Sunday 04 October 2015 07:28 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> I'm not sure if you understand fail2ban. See
> <http://www.fail2ban.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page>.
>
> fail2ban runs on (in this case) the machine on which Mailman's web
> interface runs. It monitors the web server logs and looks for (in this
> case) a minimum number of 401 errors within a given time window from a
> single IP and if found uses iptables or similar to block access from
> that IP for a defined time.
>
I run multiple websites on the same IP and same port. Therefore I was
looking for something that is inside mailman so that access to other
websites is not blocked in case the attempts were genuine. For now I
think I can manage with long passwords.


Thanks & Regards
Aditya Jain

From ovh at forum-pc.net  Sun Oct  4 23:09:42 2015
From: ovh at forum-pc.net (=?UTF-8?Q?Camille_Olli=c3=a9?=)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 23:09:42 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Multiple "Re:" in subject
In-Reply-To: <55FA01D2.80502@msapiro.net>
References: <55F82233.3010606@forum-pc.net> <55F8343B.1070606@msapiro.net>
 <55F8D153.2090309@forum-pc.net> <55F8E1B1.2000707@msapiro.net>
 <55F9BCF3.6090401@forum-pc.net> <55F9F942.1010307@msapiro.net>
 <55FA0084.4070402@forum-pc.net> <55FA01D2.80502@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56119596.10006@forum-pc.net>

Le 17/09/2015 01:57, Mark Sapiro a ?crit :
>
> In that case, please report this issue in as much detail as possible at
> <https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/issues>. Reporting the subject
> headers of an entire thread showing the growing string of Re: will be
> helpful.
>
> Nothing I do to fix this in MM 2.1 will affect MM 3.
>

i've posted on gitlab but nothing more :(

-- 
Camille Olli?

www.forum-pc.net / www.scoot-boost.com

LinkedIn : http://lnkd.in/_K65k5

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Oct  4 23:56:36 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 14:56:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Multiple "Re:" in subject
In-Reply-To: <56119596.10006@forum-pc.net>
References: <55F82233.3010606@forum-pc.net> <55F8343B.1070606@msapiro.net>
 <55F8D153.2090309@forum-pc.net> <55F8E1B1.2000707@msapiro.net>
 <55F9BCF3.6090401@forum-pc.net> <55F9F942.1010307@msapiro.net>
 <55FA0084.4070402@forum-pc.net> <55FA01D2.80502@msapiro.net>
 <56119596.10006@forum-pc.net>
Message-ID: <5611A094.9080403@msapiro.net>

On 10/04/2015 02:09 PM, Camille Olli? wrote:
> Le 17/09/2015 01:57, Mark Sapiro a ?crit :
>>
>> In that case, please report this issue in as much detail as possible at
>> <https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/issues>. Reporting the subject
>> headers of an entire thread showing the growing string of Re: will be
>> helpful.
>>
>> Nothing I do to fix this in MM 2.1 will affect MM 3.
>>
> 
> i've posted on gitlab but nothing more :(


We are all volunteers. No contributer to GNU Mailman is paid for their
contributions.

Your bug report is there. I have looked at the issue, but not assigned
it to me, at least not yet. Others may or may not be looking at it.
These things take time and you need to be patient.

Also, what you posted is helpful, but it would be even more help if you
could post an example of an incoming post together with the multiple Re:
outgoing post that results.

Also, information such as whether this is a rare or a frequent
occurrence, and what MUA's are responsible for generating the first post
in a thread that has the issue would be helpful.

Also, with respect to the post included in your bug report, is this the
end of a thread with a growing chain of Re: or did the initial list post
in the thread arrive with all those 'Re:', 'Fwd:' and 'RE :' things
already in it? I can see where the current code will not remove or
collapse 'RE :' or anything to the right of it, and I think I know how
to fix that, but fixing these things is non-trivial because in addition
to doing the fix, documentation and unit tests need to be updated and
tests run to ensure regressions haven't been introduced, and I don't
know if that's the only issue.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Mon Oct  5 12:17:35 2015
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 11:17:35 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Limiting number of failed login attempts
In-Reply-To: <5610C3A3.7090008@adityaj.in>
References: <560EFE75.9020908@adityaj.in> <560FD4C3.9000805@msapiro.net>
 <561023AC.7040805@adityaj.in> <561087BD.9090505@msapiro.net>
 <5610C3A3.7090008@adityaj.in>
Message-ID: <20151005101735.GL9573@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Sun, Oct 04, 2015 at 11:43:55AM +0530, Aditya Jain wrote:
> On Sunday 04 October 2015 07:28 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> > fail2ban runs on (in this case) the machine on which Mailman's web
> > interface runs. It monitors the web server logs and looks for (in this
> > case) a minimum number of 401 errors within a given time window from a
> > single IP and if found uses iptables or similar to block access from
> > that IP for a defined time.
> >
> I run multiple websites on the same IP and same port. Therefore I was
> looking for something that is inside mailman so that access to other
> websites is not blocked in case the attempts were genuine. For now I
> think I can manage with long passwords.

>From the Subject: line, I was going to suggest use of fail2ban?

It doesn't matter if there are other sites/services hosted on the same
machine/address; fail2ban works on patterns matching in logfiles; if
you only want to look at Mailman errors, only configure fail2ban to
look at the Mailman (vhost) logs.

If you've got (brute force attempt) issues from one host / botnet,
preventing access to other things, is surely an added win?


-- 
"To save the world requires faith and courage: faith in reason, 
 and courage to proclaim what reason shows to be true."
    -- Bertrand Russell

From lac at openend.se  Mon Oct  5 12:49:03 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 12:49:03 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Limiting number of failed login attempts
In-Reply-To: <20151005101735.GL9573@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
References: <560EFE75.9020908@adityaj.in> <560FD4C3.9000805@msapiro.net>
 <561023AC.7040805@adityaj.in> <561087BD.9090505@msapiro.net>
 <5610C3A3.7090008@adityaj.in> <20151005101735.GL9573@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
Message-ID: <201510051049.t95An3Ov028109@fido.openend.se>

I think that Aditya Jain's problem is that he (she?)
doesn't understand that fail2ban takes a look at where the attackers
are coming from and bans _their_ Host from connecting.  He thought
it worked by making his host unconnectable, which of course will not
work.

But I could be wrong ..

Laura

From aj at adityaj.in  Mon Oct  5 13:58:15 2015
From: aj at adityaj.in (Aditya Jain)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 17:28:15 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Limiting number of failed login attempts
In-Reply-To: <201510051049.t95An3Ov028109@fido.openend.se>
References: <560EFE75.9020908@adityaj.in> <560FD4C3.9000805@msapiro.net>
 <561023AC.7040805@adityaj.in> <561087BD.9090505@msapiro.net>
 <5610C3A3.7090008@adityaj.in> <20151005101735.GL9573@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <201510051049.t95An3Ov028109@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <561265D7.6060405@adityaj.in>

Hi,


On Monday 05 October 2015 04:19 PM, Laura Creighton wrote:
> I think that Aditya Jain's problem is that he (she?)
He :)
> doesn't understand that fail2ban takes a look at where the attackers
> are coming from and bans _their_ Host from connecting.  He thought
> it worked by making his host unconnectable, which of course will not
> work.
I know how it works, I also use it in some places. The concern that I
have is that most of the requests that my list receives come from very
few organizations. This leaves me with a very small number of client IP
addresses.

If I block a particular IP address because some disgruntled person from
the organization is trying to brute force, it will block access for
other legitimate users from that organization (because they have only
one IP dedicated to browsing traffic). That is why I was looking for
something that can look at the username/email and block request or show
captcha if number of failed attempts cross a certain limit, at
application(mailman) level.

I think this is sounding more like a feature request.

Thanks & Regards
Aditya Jain

From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Oct  5 17:07:25 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 00:07:25 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Limiting number of failed login attempts
In-Reply-To: <561265D7.6060405@adityaj.in>
References: <560EFE75.9020908@adityaj.in> <560FD4C3.9000805@msapiro.net>
 <561023AC.7040805@adityaj.in> <561087BD.9090505@msapiro.net>
 <5610C3A3.7090008@adityaj.in>
 <20151005101735.GL9573@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <201510051049.t95An3Ov028109@fido.openend.se>
 <561265D7.6060405@adityaj.in>
Message-ID: <22034.37421.635985.314725@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Aditya Jain writes:

 > If I block a particular IP address because some disgruntled person
 > from the organization is trying to brute force, it will block
 > access for other legitimate users from that organization (because
 > they have only one IP dedicated to browsing traffic).

This is a social problem that Mailman ultimately can't solve, and
probably shouldn't try.

 > That is why I was looking for something that can look at the
 > username/email and block request or show captcha if number of
 > failed attempts cross a certain limit, at application(mailman)
 > level.
 > 
 > I think this is sounding more like a feature request.

I think this is sounding like a denial-of-service attack on the
legitimate users no matter how you try to defend them.  My experience
with such "disgruntled users" is that they don't hesitate to abuse
others' accounts for this purpose.  They also are often willing to go
to the trouble of acquiring software to automate captcha-breaking.

Perhaps a per-user login attempt limit would work for you.  Each
(ab)user is different.  But I don't think it's a good idea for a
supported feature of Mailman, it's too fragile and it would be an
invitation to an endless series of "improvements" as the admins get in
arms races with the rogues.

It might be possible to revisit this in Mailman 3 (when we get a
unified authn/authz story) using a token-based approach where the
token is acquired somewhere that already has a stronger authentication
story.  But that will require serious coding.

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Mon Oct  5 18:10:56 2015
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 17:10:56 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Limiting number of failed login attempts
In-Reply-To: <22034.37421.635985.314725@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <560EFE75.9020908@adityaj.in> <560FD4C3.9000805@msapiro.net>
 <561023AC.7040805@adityaj.in> <561087BD.9090505@msapiro.net>
 <5610C3A3.7090008@adityaj.in>
 <20151005101735.GL9573@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <201510051049.t95An3Ov028109@fido.openend.se>
 <561265D7.6060405@adityaj.in>
 <22034.37421.635985.314725@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20151005161056.GM9573@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Tue, Oct 06, 2015 at 12:07:25AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Perhaps a per-user login attempt limit would work for you.  Each
> (ab)user is different.  But I don't think it's a good idea for a
> supported feature of Mailman, it's too fragile and it would be an
> invitation to an endless series of "improvements" as the admins get in
> arms races with the rogues.

Very much a +1, especially if we're looking at modern design, then
this could (for those wanting it) be a plugin, or shocker, using
something already out there.

> It might be possible to revisit this in Mailman 3 (when we get a
> unified authn/authz story) using a token-based approach where the
> token is acquired somewhere that already has a stronger authentication
> story.  But that will require serious coding.

I think I'd prefer the ability to void/regenerate tokens, rather than
anything else. Although with sophisticated API management tools,
shaping may be an option?

I'm not an advocate for "fixing" things in the application, rather
than at say, transport/network layer; to setup Mailman, one's
in(evit|vari)ably going to need root access anyhow, so one might as
well do things properly.



-- 
"Opera, next to Gothic architecture, is one of the strangest
 inventions of Western man. It could not have been foreseen by any
 logical process."
    -- Kenneth Clark

From cnulk at scu.edu  Tue Oct  6 17:07:40 2015
From: cnulk at scu.edu (Chris Nulk)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 08:07:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Additional questions about ban_list
Message-ID: <5613E3BC.5090805@scu.edu>

Hello all,

I have been loosely following the discussion regarding regex in the 
ban_list attribute.  I now find myself being asked to create a list 
which will most likely use the ban_list attribute.  So, I have a few 
questions.

1. The ban_list attribute is to help prevent unwanted people from 
subscribing to a list, however, I want to restrict who can subscribe to 
the list and ban anyone else.  I have the regex for who I want to allow 
to subscribe but there isn't an allow_list attribute.  Is there an easy 
way of allowing a regex to control who is able to subscribe?  Or, is 
there a way to easily invert the regex logic and use it in ban_list?  As 
an example (not the real regex), say I want to only allow @gmail.com to 
subscribe to the list but no one else.

2. An additional requirement is to restrict a subgroup of the addresses 
from subscribing.  In short, I want to allow all @gmail.com addresses to 
subscribe except for a known subgroup.  Now the known subgroup is in a 
Mailman list.  So, can I use a Mailman list in the ban_list attribute 
similar to using a list in *_these_members attributes?  Or, would I have 
to modify the code to allow using a Mailman list in the ban_list attribute?

Thank you for your consideration,
Chris

From fsantiago at garbage-juice.com  Mon Oct  5 21:02:24 2015
From: fsantiago at garbage-juice.com (fsantiago at garbage-juice.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 15:02:24 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hyperkitty / Postorius / Apache web access error
Message-ID: <d42cfdb4e066457a78e51206f8072dd4@garbage-juice.com>

Hello,

I'm setting up Mailman3 based on the hyperkitty-el.repo.

I believe I've setup my config files but my apache logs continue reading 
access errors:

client denied by server configuration: 
/etc/hyperkitty/sites/default/wsgi.py

or

client denied by server configuration: 
/etc/postorius/sites/default/srv/postorius.wsgi


What am I missing and/or where should I be looking? Thanks.

- Fabian S.

From fsantiago at garbage-juice.com  Tue Oct  6 19:30:56 2015
From: fsantiago at garbage-juice.com (fsantiago at garbage-juice.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 13:30:56 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman v2.1.20 init script for cos7 / wrong pid
	location
Message-ID: <81d79ffbeed8490778c10048ba069813@garbage-juice.com>

Hello,

I've installed / compiled mailman 2.1.20 from source on centos 7. works 
fine when manually operated via:

bin/mailmanctl start / stop

when i copy the mailman script from /scripts to /etc/rc.d/init.d and 
perform 'chkconfig --add mailman', and then try to start it via:

systemctl start mailman

it does actually start (I can see the processes) but on the CLI, it 
reports start failed. When I ask for the status, it tells me:

Starting SYSV: Mailman is the GNU Mailing List Manager, a program that 
manages electronic mail discussion groups.  For more on GNU Mailman see 
http://www.list.org...
Oct 06 11:03:12 mail.garbage-juice.com systemd[1]: PID file 
/usr/lib/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid not readable (yet?) after 
start.
Oct 06 11:08:12 mail.garbage-juice.com systemd[1]: mailman.service 
operation timed out. Terminating.
Oct 06 11:08:12 mail.garbage-juice.com systemd[1]: Failed to start SYSV: 
Mailman is the GNU Mailing List Manager, a program that manages 
electronic mail discussion groups.  For more on GNU Mailman see 
http://www.list.org.
Oct 06 11:08:12 mail.garbage-juice.com systemd[1]: Unit mailman.service 
entered failed state.

Now, the readout states the pid file as 
/usr/lib/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid, which doesn't exist.

When started manually via mailmanctl, the pid file that is created is:  
/var/lib/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid

When started via systemctl, despite the reported error, the pid file 
actually exists under /var/lib...

So systemd is looking in the wrong spot for the pid apparently.

Where can I make a change to tell systemd where to look? Thanks 
everyone.


- Fabe S.

From aj at adityaj.in  Tue Oct  6 19:43:47 2015
From: aj at adityaj.in (Aditya Jain)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 23:13:47 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Additional questions about ban_list
In-Reply-To: <5613E3BC.5090805@scu.edu>
References: <5613E3BC.5090805@scu.edu>
Message-ID: <56140853.6060303@adityaj.in>

Hi Chris,


On Tuesday 06 October 2015 08:37 PM, Chris Nulk wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I have been loosely following the discussion regarding regex in the
> ban_list attribute.  I now find myself being asked to create a list
> which will most likely use the ban_list attribute.  So, I have a few
> questions.
>
> 1. The ban_list attribute is to help prevent unwanted people from
> subscribing to a list, however, I want to restrict who can subscribe
> to the list and ban anyone else.  I have the regex for who I want to
> allow to subscribe but there isn't an allow_list attribute.  Is there
> an easy way of allowing a regex to control who is able to subscribe? 
> Or, is there a way to easily invert the regex logic and use it in
> ban_list?  As an example (not the real regex), say I want to only
> allow @gmail.com to subscribe to the list but no one else.
You can use ban_list to accomplish this. You just have to revert the
matching criteria. For example if you want to allow only example.org and
example.com you can use the following regex

^[^@]+@(?!(.*\.)?example\.(org|com)$)

Regards
Aditya Jain


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct  6 20:13:53 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 11:13:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman v2.1.20 init script for cos7 / wrong
 pid location
In-Reply-To: <81d79ffbeed8490778c10048ba069813@garbage-juice.com>
References: <81d79ffbeed8490778c10048ba069813@garbage-juice.com>
Message-ID: <56140F61.9040500@msapiro.net>

On 10/06/2015 10:30 AM, fsantiago at garbage-juice.com wrote:
> 
> I've installed / compiled mailman 2.1.20 from source on centos 7. works
> fine when manually operated via:
>
> bin/mailmanctl start / stop
> 
> when i copy the mailman script from /scripts to /etc/rc.d/init.d and
> perform 'chkconfig --add mailman', and then try to start it via:


You should be using the configured init.d script from misc/mailman in
the directory in which you configured the source distribution.


> systemctl start mailman
> 
> it does actually start (I can see the processes) but on the CLI, it
> reports start failed. When I ask for the status, it tells me:
...
> Now, the readout states the pid file as
> /usr/lib/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid, which doesn't exist.
> 
> When started manually via mailmanctl, the pid file that is created is: 
> /var/lib/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid
> 
> When started via systemctl, despite the reported error, the pid file
> actually exists under /var/lib...
> 
> So systemd is looking in the wrong spot for the pid apparently.
> 
> Where can I make a change to tell systemd where to look? Thanks everyone.


Probably in something like /etc/sysconfig/mailman, but if you want to
run the source distribution, you should be using it 100%. If you install
from source but use init.d scripts, crontabs, etc. from a package,
you're asking for trouble.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fsantiago at garbage-juice.com  Tue Oct  6 20:24:48 2015
From: fsantiago at garbage-juice.com (fsantiago at garbage-juice.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 14:24:48 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman v2.1.20 init script for cos7 / wrong
 pid location
In-Reply-To: <56140F61.9040500@msapiro.net>
References: <81d79ffbeed8490778c10048ba069813@garbage-juice.com>
 <56140F61.9040500@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <e717df4b48105593456c6c93ab816201@garbage-juice.com>

Mark,

thanks for your reply. But i believe you misunderstood; all files have 
been taken from the source distribution (or were put in their current 
locations during 'make install'). I have used no packages in this 
endeavor.

I double checked and ran diff; <source>/misc/mailman and 
/etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman are an exact match. they should be as i put it 
there today myself.

so, what else?

- Fabe S.


On 2015-10-06 14:13, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/06/2015 10:30 AM, fsantiago at garbage-juice.com wrote:
>> 
>> I've installed / compiled mailman 2.1.20 from source on centos 7. 
>> works
>> fine when manually operated via:
>> 
>> bin/mailmanctl start / stop
>> 
>> when i copy the mailman script from /scripts to /etc/rc.d/init.d and
>> perform 'chkconfig --add mailman', and then try to start it via:
> 
> 
> You should be using the configured init.d script from misc/mailman in
> the directory in which you configured the source distribution.
> 
> 
>> systemctl start mailman
>> 
>> it does actually start (I can see the processes) but on the CLI, it
>> reports start failed. When I ask for the status, it tells me:
> ...
>> Now, the readout states the pid file as
>> /usr/lib/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid, which doesn't exist.
>> 
>> When started manually via mailmanctl, the pid file that is created is:
>> /var/lib/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid
>> 
>> When started via systemctl, despite the reported error, the pid file
>> actually exists under /var/lib...
>> 
>> So systemd is looking in the wrong spot for the pid apparently.
>> 
>> Where can I make a change to tell systemd where to look? Thanks 
>> everyone.
> 
> 
> Probably in something like /etc/sysconfig/mailman, but if you want to
> run the source distribution, you should be using it 100%. If you 
> install
> from source but use init.d scripts, crontabs, etc. from a package,
> you're asking for trouble.

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct  6 20:35:23 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 11:35:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hyperkitty / Postorius / Apache web access error
In-Reply-To: <d42cfdb4e066457a78e51206f8072dd4@garbage-juice.com>
References: <d42cfdb4e066457a78e51206f8072dd4@garbage-juice.com>
Message-ID: <5614146B.106@msapiro.net>

On 10/05/2015 12:02 PM, fsantiago at garbage-juice.com wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I'm setting up Mailman3 based on the hyperkitty-el.repo.
> 
> I believe I've setup my config files but my apache logs continue reading
> access errors:
> 
> client denied by server configuration:
> /etc/hyperkitty/sites/default/wsgi.py
> 
> or
> 
> client denied by server configuration:
> /etc/postorius/sites/default/srv/postorius.wsgi
> 
> 
> What am I missing and/or where should I be looking? Thanks.


This may be the Apache 2.2 -> 2.4 issue. In Apache 2.2 and earlier
access was granted to a resource (directory, etc.) for anyone via
something like

    Order Allow,Deny
    Allow from all

In Apache 2.4, you need instead

    Require all granted


Note that questions about Mailman 3 and particularly Postorius and
Hyperkitty are better posted to the mailman-developers at python.org list
<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers>. Please
join that list if you are not already a member and post there.

We will soon have a mailman3-users at mailman3.org list (running on MM 3 of
course), but there are still infrastructure issues to work out before
that list will be operational.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fsantiago at garbage-juice.com  Tue Oct  6 20:45:39 2015
From: fsantiago at garbage-juice.com (fsantiago at garbage-juice.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 14:45:39 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hyperkitty / Postorius / Apache web access error
In-Reply-To: <5614146B.106@msapiro.net>
References: <d42cfdb4e066457a78e51206f8072dd4@garbage-juice.com>
 <5614146B.106@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <41755dbabeead7fed1bcf1895641d6c5@garbage-juice.com>

Mark,

Damn, missed that. That was it. Thanks. still not working though; 503 
error. I will start posting in mailman-dev... thanks again.


On 2015-10-06 14:35, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/05/2015 12:02 PM, fsantiago at garbage-juice.com wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> I'm setting up Mailman3 based on the hyperkitty-el.repo.
>> 
>> I believe I've setup my config files but my apache logs continue 
>> reading
>> access errors:
>> 
>> client denied by server configuration:
>> /etc/hyperkitty/sites/default/wsgi.py
>> 
>> or
>> 
>> client denied by server configuration:
>> /etc/postorius/sites/default/srv/postorius.wsgi
>> 
>> 
>> What am I missing and/or where should I be looking? Thanks.
> 
> 
> This may be the Apache 2.2 -> 2.4 issue. In Apache 2.2 and earlier
> access was granted to a resource (directory, etc.) for anyone via
> something like
> 
>     Order Allow,Deny
>     Allow from all
> 
> In Apache 2.4, you need instead
> 
>     Require all granted
> 
> 
> Note that questions about Mailman 3 and particularly Postorius and
> Hyperkitty are better posted to the mailman-developers at python.org list
> <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers>. Please
> join that list if you are not already a member and post there.
> 
> We will soon have a mailman3-users at mailman3.org list (running on MM 3 
> of
> course), but there are still infrastructure issues to work out before
> that list will be operational.

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct  6 21:09:42 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 12:09:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman v2.1.20 init script for cos7 / wrong
 pid location
In-Reply-To: <e717df4b48105593456c6c93ab816201@garbage-juice.com>
References: <81d79ffbeed8490778c10048ba069813@garbage-juice.com>
 <56140F61.9040500@msapiro.net>
 <e717df4b48105593456c6c93ab816201@garbage-juice.com>
Message-ID: <56141C76.9090505@msapiro.net>

On 10/06/2015 11:24 AM, fsantiago at garbage-juice.com wrote:

First of all, whatever MUA you're using included the Sender:
Mailman-Users
<mailman-users-bounces+fsantiago=garbage-juice.com at python.org> address
in your reply-all which resulted in your being scored with a bounce for
today. Be careful to which addresses you're replying.


> Mark,
> 
> thanks for your reply. But i believe you misunderstood; all files have
> been taken from the source distribution (or were put in their current
> locations during 'make install'). I have used no packages in this endeavor.
> 
> I double checked and ran diff; <source>/misc/mailman and
> /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman are an exact match. they should be as i put it
> there today myself.


And that file contains

# pidfile: @prefix@/data/master-qrunner.pid

PYTHON=@PYTHON@
MAILMANHOME=@prefix@
MAILMANCTL=$MAILMANHOME/bin/mailmanctl


This would seem to be a bug. I.e misc/mailman.in should contain

# pidfile: @VAR_PREFIX@/data/master-qrunner.pid

if in fact this is what systemctl is using.

Try changing

# pidfile: /usr/lib/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid

to

# pidfile: /var/lib/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid

in /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman and report if that fixes it.
-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fsantiago at garbage-juice.com  Tue Oct  6 21:18:05 2015
From: fsantiago at garbage-juice.com (fsantiago at garbage-juice.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 15:18:05 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman v2.1.20 init script for cos7 / wrong
 pid location
In-Reply-To: <56141C76.9090505@msapiro.net>
References: <81d79ffbeed8490778c10048ba069813@garbage-juice.com>
 <56140F61.9040500@msapiro.net>
 <e717df4b48105593456c6c93ab816201@garbage-juice.com>
 <56141C76.9090505@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <55d7aa904f3f8ad231271f15a7591285@garbage-juice.com>

Yes it fixed it. thank you Mark.

- Fabe S.



On 2015-10-06 15:09, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/06/2015 11:24 AM, fsantiago at garbage-juice.com wrote:
> 
> First of all, whatever MUA you're using included the Sender:
> Mailman-Users
> <mailman-users-bounces+fsantiago=garbage-juice.com at python.org> address
> in your reply-all which resulted in your being scored with a bounce for
> today. Be careful to which addresses you're replying.
> 
> 
>> Mark,
>> 
>> thanks for your reply. But i believe you misunderstood; all files have
>> been taken from the source distribution (or were put in their current
>> locations during 'make install'). I have used no packages in this 
>> endeavor.
>> 
>> I double checked and ran diff; <source>/misc/mailman and
>> /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman are an exact match. they should be as i put 
>> it
>> there today myself.
> 
> 
> And that file contains
> 
> # pidfile: @prefix@/data/master-qrunner.pid
> 
> PYTHON=@PYTHON@
> MAILMANHOME=@prefix@
> MAILMANCTL=$MAILMANHOME/bin/mailmanctl
> 
> 
> This would seem to be a bug. I.e misc/mailman.in should contain
> 
> # pidfile: @VAR_PREFIX@/data/master-qrunner.pid
> 
> if in fact this is what systemctl is using.
> 
> Try changing
> 
> # pidfile: /usr/lib/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid
> 
> to
> 
> # pidfile: /var/lib/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid
> 
> in /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman and report if that fixes it.

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct  6 21:18:37 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 12:18:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman v2.1.20 init script for cos7 / wrong
 pid location
In-Reply-To: <56141C76.9090505@msapiro.net>
References: <81d79ffbeed8490778c10048ba069813@garbage-juice.com>
 <56140F61.9040500@msapiro.net>
 <e717df4b48105593456c6c93ab816201@garbage-juice.com>
 <56141C76.9090505@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56141E8D.60103@msapiro.net>

On 10/06/2015 12:09 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> Try changing
> 
> # pidfile: /usr/lib/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid
> 
> to
> 
> # pidfile: /var/lib/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid
> 
> in /etc/rc.d/init.d/mailman and report if that fixes it.


You may need to rerun chkconfig after making the change.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct  7 02:43:58 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 17:43:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Additional questions about ban_list
In-Reply-To: <5613E3BC.5090805@scu.edu>
References: <5613E3BC.5090805@scu.edu>
Message-ID: <56146ACE.5010606@msapiro.net>

On 10/06/2015 08:07 AM, Chris Nulk wrote:
> 
> 1. The ban_list attribute is to help prevent unwanted people from
> subscribing to a list, however, I want to restrict who can subscribe to
> the list and ban anyone else.  I have the regex for who I want to allow
> to subscribe but there isn't an allow_list attribute.  Is there an easy
> way of allowing a regex to control who is able to subscribe?  Or, is
> there a way to easily invert the regex logic and use it in ban_list?  As
> an example (not the real regex), say I want to only allow @gmail.com to
> subscribe to the list but no one else.


As Aditya Jain replied, you can use Python RE negative lookahead
assertions to create regexps with "doesn't match" conditions. See
<https://docs.python.org/2/library/re.html#regular-expression-syntax>.


Although the posted regexp modified for gmail

^[^@]+@(?!(.*\.)?gmail\.com$)

will not match and hence allow, addresses like user at subdomain.gmail.com.
To allow only '@gmail.com' addresses, e.g. to ban all non-'@gmail.com'
addresses, use

^[^@]+@(?!gmail\.com$)

Often, if you have the regexp to allow, the regexp to ban may be as
simple as

^(?!the_allow_regexp)


> 2. An additional requirement is to restrict a subgroup of the addresses
> from subscribing.  In short, I want to allow all @gmail.com addresses to
> subscribe except for a known subgroup.  Now the known subgroup is in a
> Mailman list.  So, can I use a Mailman list in the ban_list attribute
> similar to using a list in *_these_members attributes?  Or, would I have
> to modify the code to allow using a Mailman list in the ban_list attribute?


Allowing @list_name in ban_list is a simple code modification if you
don't care if various 'error' log messages such as list references
itself or references non-existent list refer to
'subscribe_auto_approval' even if the error is in ban_list.

The change would be in this code in Mailman/Mail.List.py

    def GetBannedPattern(self, email):
        """Returns matched entry in ban_list if email matches.
        Otherwise returns None.
        """
        return self.GetPattern(email, self.ban_list)

change the last line to

        return self.GetPattern(email, self.ban_list, at_list=True)

Or, if you've installed the GLOBAL_BAN_LIST mod, make the change in each
of the two lines in

        return (self.GetPattern(email, self.ban_list) or
                self.GetPattern(email, mm_cfg.GLOBAL_BAN_LIST)
               )

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From brian at emwd.com  Wed Oct  7 15:16:32 2015
From: brian at emwd.com (brian at emwd.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 09:16:32 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subscription Form Spam -- It continues . . .
Message-ID: <a9f32425e8043635c3827e77a08f7d23@emwd.com>

Hello list,

I have seen another type of subscription form spam pop-up on our 
servers. It is particularly affecting one client that has 80 mailman 
lists and they wish to keep their lists publicly advertised. We keep 
seeing dozens of subscription spam coming in from gmail addresses PER 
MINUTE with the following format:

kihuotter+59233527 at gmail.com

We have implemented the form secret function that was introduced in 
Mailman 2.16 but it is having no effect on these particular subscription 
requests.

I remember seeing a solution from Mark Sapiro addressing this exact 
issue but I can't seem to find it again.

Help me Obi-Wan Sapiro. You are my only hope! (other suggestions would 
also be appreciated!)

Thanks,
Brian Carpenter

From kliu.gis at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 04:25:23 2015
From: kliu.gis at gmail.com (Kai Liu)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 22:25:23 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman cgi error after server restart
Message-ID: <CACwD=t37D3E9s21Geh3PkubHJaUpndtAb-vyS0qPwUV3w=r1mA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys,

My server is Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES release 4. I installed mailman
2.1.3 and postfix. It has worked for 4 years. Yesterday I restarted the
server, but found I can not go to thehttp://MyDomain/mailman/create
<http://mydomain/mailman/create> page. It shows the following error:

Mailman CGI error!!!

The Mailman CGI wrapper encountered a fatal error. This entry is being
stored in your syslog:

Group mismatch error.  Mailman expected the CGI
wrapper script to be executed as group "daemon", but
the system's web server executed the CGI script as
group "apache".  Try tweaking the web server to run the
script as group "daemon", or re-run configure,
providing the command line option `--with-cgi-gid=apache'.


1) it says I could re-run configure, but I have run this about 4 years and
have many mail list. If I re-run configure, will I lose some data?

2) How to run the postfix as group "daemon"?

This question is also available at:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32982074/mailman-cgi-error-after-server-restart
-- 

Kai Liu
Ph.D. student
Department of Geography and GeoInformation Science
George Mason University

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Wed Oct  7 16:39:18 2015
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 15:39:18 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman cgi error after server restart
In-Reply-To: <CACwD=t37D3E9s21Geh3PkubHJaUpndtAb-vyS0qPwUV3w=r1mA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwD=t37D3E9s21Geh3PkubHJaUpndtAb-vyS0qPwUV3w=r1mA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151007143918.GN9573@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Tue, Oct 06, 2015 at 10:25:23PM -0400, Kai Liu wrote:
> Hi guys,
> 
> My server is Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES release 4. I installed mailman
> 2.1.3 and postfix. It has worked for 4 years.

Your version of Mailman is almost 10 years old. I'd be inclined to
upgrade that.

> Yesterday I restarted the
> server, but found I can not go to thehttp://MyDomain/mailman/create
> <http://mydomain/mailman/create> page. It shows the following error:
> 
> Mailman CGI error!!!
> 
> The Mailman CGI wrapper encountered a fatal error. This entry is being
> stored in your syslog:
> 
> Group mismatch error.  Mailman expected the CGI
> wrapper script to be executed as group "daemon", but
> the system's web server executed the CGI script as
> group "apache".  Try tweaking the web server to run the
> script as group "daemon", or re-run configure,
> providing the command line option `--with-cgi-gid=apache'.

check_perms is the (Mailman) script you want.

-- 
DRINK COFFEE -- Do stupid things faster with more energy!

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct  7 17:03:36 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 08:03:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subscription Form Spam -- It continues . . .
In-Reply-To: <a9f32425e8043635c3827e77a08f7d23@emwd.com>
References: <a9f32425e8043635c3827e77a08f7d23@emwd.com>
Message-ID: <56153448.1080801@msapiro.net>

On 10/07/2015 06:16 AM, brian at emwd.com wrote:
> We keep
> seeing dozens of subscription spam coming in from gmail addresses PER
> MINUTE with the following format:
> 
> kihuotter+59233527 at gmail.com
> 
> We have implemented the form secret function that was introduced in
> Mailman 2.16 but it is having no effect on these particular subscription
> requests.


When these first started, enabling SUBSCRIBE_FORM_SECRET would help, but
there were still many that delayed long enough even with
SUBSCRIBE_FORM_MIN_TIME = seconds(8) to get through. Currently, the ones
that hit mail.python.org almost always delay long enough. I just checked
the vette log and we're currently banning about 18,000 attempts per day.

See
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-September/079844.html>


> I remember seeing a solution from Mark Sapiro addressing this exact
> issue but I can't seem to find it again.


There are several threads on this in the archives of this list from
August and September, but the above linked post is a good summary.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From rsk at gsp.org  Wed Oct  7 17:15:42 2015
From: rsk at gsp.org (Rich Kulawiec)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 11:15:42 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subscription Form Spam -- It continues . . .
In-Reply-To: <a9f32425e8043635c3827e77a08f7d23@emwd.com>
References: <a9f32425e8043635c3827e77a08f7d23@emwd.com>
Message-ID: <20151007151542.GA6225@gsp.org>

On Wed, Oct 07, 2015 at 09:16:32AM -0400, brian at emwd.com wrote:
> I have seen another type of subscription form spam pop-up on our
> servers. It is particularly affecting one client that has 80 mailman
> lists and they wish to keep their lists publicly advertised. We keep
> seeing dozens of subscription spam coming in from gmail addresses
> PER MINUTE with the following format:

There are multiple approaches to this:

1.  Look at the logs.  Find out where the subscriptions are coming from,
and firewall out the appropriate network(s) or countries.  (See ipdeny.com
for country IP ranges.)

or

2. If you only expect to receive subscriptions from one or a few countries,
then firewall out the entire world and only allow connections from that
small set.

and/or

3. Use the Spamhaus DROP and EDROP lists in your firewall and drop
*all* inbound traffic from and *all* outbound traffic to those ranges.
This achieves lossless compression.  (This should be done whether you
do 1 or 2 or neither.  It's basic network self-defense.)

and/or

4. Collect all the forged subscriptions and have a chat with the email
people at Gmail.  It's possible that they can do something about this
on their side.  I can put you in touch with someone if need be.

---rsk

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct  8 02:31:00 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 17:31:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman cgi error after server restart
In-Reply-To: <CACwD=t37D3E9s21Geh3PkubHJaUpndtAb-vyS0qPwUV3w=r1mA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwD=t37D3E9s21Geh3PkubHJaUpndtAb-vyS0qPwUV3w=r1mA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5615B944.3090004@msapiro.net>

On 10/06/2015 07:25 PM, Kai Liu wrote:
> 
> 1) it says I could re-run configure, but I have run this about 4 years and
> have many mail list. If I re-run configure, will I lose some data?


Running configure, make and make install will not result in data loss,
but you should stop Mailman before make install and start it after.

If you have local mods to the Mailman code or you made settings in
Defaults.py instead of mm_cfg.py, there can be loss of those things, so
make your settings in mm_cfg.py and if you have modes to running code,
be sure you know what they are so you can reapply them.


> 2) How to run the postfix as group "daemon"?


Postfix is not the issue in your original post. Your OP referred to a
CGI wrapper group mismatch, not a mail wrapper group mismatch.

You can set the group in Apache with Apache's Group directive, but this
is a global setting. In Apache 2.4, there is also a VHostGroup directive
that applies only to a VirtualHost, but not in older versions. See
<http://httpd.apache.org/docs/>.

For Postfix, if delivery is via aliases, postfix will run the pipe in a
Mailman alias as the user and group of the owner of the aliases.db file
in which the alias is found. Note this is the primary group of the owner
of the file, not the group of the file.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct  8 02:49:28 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 17:49:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subscription Form Spam -- It continues . . .
In-Reply-To: <20151007151542.GA6225@gsp.org>
References: <a9f32425e8043635c3827e77a08f7d23@emwd.com>
 <20151007151542.GA6225@gsp.org>
Message-ID: <5615BD98.6060003@msapiro.net>

On 10/07/2015 08:15 AM, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
> 
> There are multiple approaches to this:
> 
> 1.  Look at the logs.  Find out where the subscriptions are coming from,
> and firewall out the appropriate network(s) or countries.  (See ipdeny.com
> for country IP ranges.)
> 
> or
> 
> 2. If you only expect to receive subscriptions from one or a few countries,
> then firewall out the entire world and only allow connections from that
> small set.
> 
> and/or
> 
> 3. Use the Spamhaus DROP and EDROP lists in your firewall and drop
> *all* inbound traffic from and *all* outbound traffic to those ranges.
> This achieves lossless compression.  (This should be done whether you
> do 1 or 2 or neither.  It's basic network self-defense.)
> 
> and/or


Except these come from botnets and the IPs are all over the world.


> 
> 4. Collect all the forged subscriptions and have a chat with the email
> people at Gmail.  It's possible that they can do something about this
> on their side.  I can put you in touch with someone if need be.


And Gmail has nothing to do with this. This is a DOS attack. There may
be some intent to harass various gmail users with backscatter, but none
of this originates from gmail and the addresses being subscribed may not
even be valid gmail addresses, but if they are, I doubt their owners are
more than victims.

By globally banning the addresses at mail.python.org, we have no
backscatter and we block subscription and only say so in the web
response to the subscribe form submission. Thus whoever is behind this
gains nothing and only causes us the web processing to process their GET
and POST. It's hard to see why they continue to hammer us, but we see
ever increasing numbers of these, 17341 on Oct 5, 17882 on Oct 6 and
19927 on Oct 7, CEST. These are the number of subscribe attempts that
got far enough to be banned. Significant numbers are blocked via IP
block lists and some fail because the POST comes too soon after the GET.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mjs at clemson.edu  Thu Oct  8 04:19:28 2015
From: mjs at clemson.edu (Matthew Saltzman)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 02:19:28 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subscription Form Spam -- It continues . . .
In-Reply-To: <5615BD98.6060003@msapiro.net>
References: <a9f32425e8043635c3827e77a08f7d23@emwd.com>
 <20151007151542.GA6225@gsp.org> <5615BD98.6060003@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1444270766.18305.52.camel@clemson.edu>

On Wed, 2015-10-07 at 17:49 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/07/2015 08:15 AM, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
> > 
> > There are multiple approaches to this:
> > 
> > 1.  Look at the logs.  Find out where the subscriptions are coming
> > from,
> > and firewall out the appropriate network(s) or countries.  (See
> > ipdeny.com
> > for country IP ranges.)
> > 
> > or
> > 
> > 2. If you only expect to receive subscriptions from one or a few
> > countries,
> > then firewall out the entire world and only allow connections from
> > that
> > small set.
> > 
> > and/or
> > 
> > 3. Use the Spamhaus DROP and EDROP lists in your firewall and drop
> > *all* inbound traffic from and *all* outbound traffic to those
> > ranges.
> > This achieves lossless compression.  (This should be done whether
> > you
> > do 1 or 2 or neither.  It's basic network self-defense.)
> > 
> > and/or
> 
> 
> Except these come from botnets and the IPs are all over the world.
> 
> 
> > 
> > 4. Collect all the forged subscriptions and have a chat with the
> > email
> > people at Gmail.  It's possible that they can do something about
> > this
> > on their side.  I can put you in touch with someone if need be.
> 
> 
> And Gmail has nothing to do with this. This is a DOS attack. There
> may
> be some intent to harass various gmail users with backscatter, but
> none
> of this originates from gmail and the addresses being subscribed may
> not
> even be valid gmail addresses, but if they are, I doubt their owners
> are
> more than victims.
> 
> By globally banning the addresses at mail.python.org, we have no
> backscatter and we block subscription and only say so in the web
> response to the subscribe form submission. Thus whoever is behind
> this
> gains nothing and only causes us the web processing to process their
> GET
> and POST. It's hard to see why they continue to hammer us, but we see
> ever increasing numbers of these, 17341 on Oct 5, 17882 on Oct 6 and
> 19927 on Oct 7, CEST. These are the number of subscribe attempts that
> got far enough to be banned. Significant numbers are blocked via IP
> block lists and some fail because the POST comes too soon after the
> GET.
> 

Based on Mark's advice, we banned the following regexps from
subscribing:

    ^.*\+\d{5,    }@gmail    \.com
    ^.*\+\d{5,    }@usc    \.edu

That might be a bit aggressive, potentially blocking a legitimate
address or two, but we haven't seen the spam since. (Note that there
was only one usc.edu address involved, and we haven't seen that once
since instituting the ban.)

    # wc subscribe vette
          12      132     1153 subscribe
       82014   902233 10164693 vette

...and that's just today!

-- 
Matthew Saltzman
Clemson University Math Sciences
mjs AT clemson DOT edu

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Oct  8 06:42:07 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 13:42:07 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subscription Form Spam -- It continues . . .
In-Reply-To: <5615BD98.6060003@msapiro.net>
References: <a9f32425e8043635c3827e77a08f7d23@emwd.com>
 <20151007151542.GA6225@gsp.org> <5615BD98.6060003@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <22037.62495.55666.121418@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > > 3. Use the Spamhaus DROP and EDROP lists in your firewall and drop
 > > *all* inbound traffic from and *all* outbound traffic to those ranges.
 > > This achieves lossless compression.  (This should be done whether you
 > > do 1 or 2 or neither.  It's basic network self-defense.)
 > > 
 > > and/or
 > 
 > Except these come from botnets and the IPs are all over the world.

I wonder how effective the Spamhaus XBL (eXploited host Black List)
would be at this.  I wouldn't use it unless I were experiencing the
attack, though.

 > It's hard to see why they continue to hammer us,

Good question.

By the way, I'm not seeing the '.*\+\d{5,}@gmail\.com' subscribes at
XEmacs, but I am seeing this (curiously not for XEmacs itself, but for
LUG lists our host also serves):

Oct 04 yhslug: pending info at firstlast.com  195.228.45.176
Oct 04 shenlug: pending nick.last at gmail.com  173.254.216.68
Oct 04 fredlug: pending nick.last at gmail.com  209.133.66.214
Oct 04 bbh: pending nick.last at gmail.com  195.154.209.57
Oct 04 bod: pending nick.last at gmail.com  195.154.209.57
Oct 04 ma-linux: pending nick.last at gmail.com  162.247.72.
Oct 04 yhslug: pending nick.last at gmail.com  162.247.72.7
Oct 04 ma-jobs: pending nick.last at gmail.com  81.89.96.88
Oct 04 fredlug: pending nick.last at gmail.com  192.151.154.142
Oct 04 ma-linux: pending nick.last at gmail.com  195.154.191.67
Oct 04 yhslug: pending nick.last at gmail.com  195.154.191.67
Oct 05 mailman: pending info at firstlast.com  5.9.36.66
Oct 05 ma-jobs: pending info at firstlast.com  5.9.36.66
Oct 05 shenlug: pending info at firstlast.com  5.9.36.66
Oct 05 xlock-announce: pending info at firstlast.com  5.9.36.66
Oct 05 ma-linux: pending info at firstlast.com  213.61.149.100
Oct 05 yhslug: pending info at firstlast.com  213.61.149.100
Oct 05 xlock-develop: pending nick.last at gmail.com  107.181.174.84
Oct 05 ma-jobs: pending nick.last at gmail.com  107.181.174.84
Oct 05 shenlug: pending nick.last at gmail.com  107.181.174.84
Oct 05 ma-linux: pending info at firstlast.com  185.101.107.189
Oct 05 yhslug: pending info at firstlast.com  185.101.107.189
Oct 06 fredlug: pending nick.last at gmail.com  62.210.105.116
Oct 06 shenlug: pending info at firstlast.com  37.130.227.133
Oct 06 mailman: pending nick.last at gmail.com  37.187.7.74
Oct 06 yhslug: pending info at firstlast.com  37.187.7.74
Oct 06 shenlug: pending nick.last at gmail.com  37.187.7.74
Oct 06 ma-linux: pending nick.last at gmail.com  69.162.139.9
Oct 06 yhslug: pending nick.last at gmail.com  69.162.139.9
Oct 07 shenlug: pending info at firstlast.com  171.25.193.131
Oct 07 bbh: pending info at firstlast.com  185.104.120.4
Oct 07 mailman: pending nick.last at gmail.com  91.219.236.222
Oct 07 ma-jobs: pending nick.last at gmail.com  91.219.236.222

(Name obfuscated to protect the probably innocent victim.)

19 different IPs -- "Nick Last" sure gets around on the Internet!
This isn't the only suspicious subscription activity on the host and
it doesn't amount to a serious DOS attack for us, but it looks like a
variation (maybe an older scheme? or just a script kiddie with only a
few bots?) on the same theme.

Just speculation, but I wonder if the bots are discovering Mailman
hosts, then going to listinfo and getting the list of lists, and then
telling the other bots in their net to subscribe (in an unintended
"Great Internet Worm" fiasco)?

Steve

From rsk at gsp.org  Thu Oct  8 16:51:41 2015
From: rsk at gsp.org (Rich Kulawiec)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 10:51:41 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subscription Form Spam -- It continues . . .
In-Reply-To: <1444270766.18305.52.camel@clemson.edu>
References: <a9f32425e8043635c3827e77a08f7d23@emwd.com>
 <20151007151542.GA6225@gsp.org> <5615BD98.6060003@msapiro.net>
 <1444270766.18305.52.camel@clemson.edu>
Message-ID: <20151008145140.GA7202@gsp.org>


I'd be curiously to see the logs for these.  (I intend to check
them against various address range lists to see if the originating
IP addresses correlate with anything else I'm tracking.)  If they're
coming from botted hosts, then (as noted in the thread) using the XBL
or similar may help.  If they're coming from hijacked networks, then
the DROP/EDROP lists may help.  If they're coming from...well, without
analyzing the data and looking for patterns, it's hard to say what
will help.  But I'm certainly willing to put in some time scripting
and eyeballing even though the most likely outcome is nothing useful.

Mark is probably right about the addresses being forgeries, but once
in a while attacks like these turn out to be using a smattering of
real ones mixed in with the junk.  That's why I suggested running
the collation past Gmail people: they may be able to match it up
with some other activity that isn't visible out here.  (Or not.)

Question/speculation: in the SMTP world, we've found that using
things like greet_pause (which causes the SMTP server to refrain from
sending its greeting for a little bit, and thus lets us detect SMTP
clients that start sending too soon) can be pretty effective.
Does the timing of these attacks lend itself to a similar approach?
(Yes, of course clients can and will eventually adapt...but years
later, greet_pause still manages to fend off some of the attacks.)

---rsk

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct  8 18:44:17 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 09:44:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subscription Form Spam -- It continues . . .
In-Reply-To: <20151008145140.GA7202@gsp.org>
References: <a9f32425e8043635c3827e77a08f7d23@emwd.com>
 <20151007151542.GA6225@gsp.org> <5615BD98.6060003@msapiro.net>
 <1444270766.18305.52.camel@clemson.edu> <20151008145140.GA7202@gsp.org>
Message-ID: <56169D61.4010408@msapiro.net>

On 10/08/2015 07:51 AM, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
> 
> I'd be curiously to see the logs for these.  (I intend to check
> them against various address range lists to see if the originating
> IP addresses correlate with anything else I'm tracking.)


The results from

grep -E 'GET /mailman/listinfo|POST /mailman/subscribe'
mail.python.org-ssl_access.log

are available at

<https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6k7rjr_EKxzc2wtYWJjQ2s3V2M/view?usp=sharing>

This covers from Oct 4 to date CEST and is over 70 MB. Some of the GETs
are legitimate retrievals of listinfo pages, but most are associated
with these subscribe attempts. And, of course a few GET/POST sequences
are legitimate subscribe requests, but the vast majority are these bogus
ones.

A large number of POSTs have 401 status. These are generated by
mod-spamhaus which applies to

MS_METHODS POST,PUT,OPTIONS,CONNECT

and uses

MS_Dns list.blogspambl.com


> If they're
> coming from botted hosts, then (as noted in the thread) using the XBL
> or similar may help.  If they're coming from hijacked networks, then
> the DROP/EDROP lists may help.  If they're coming from...well, without
> analyzing the data and looking for patterns, it's hard to say what
> will help.  But I'm certainly willing to put in some time scripting
> and eyeballing even though the most likely outcome is nothing useful.


Thank you. Your help will be appreciated.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From kliu.gis at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 21:34:44 2015
From: kliu.gis at gmail.com (Kai Liu)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 15:34:44 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman cgi error after server restart
In-Reply-To: <5615B944.3090004@msapiro.net>
References: <CACwD=t37D3E9s21Geh3PkubHJaUpndtAb-vyS0qPwUV3w=r1mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5615B944.3090004@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CACwD=t1tfpryNU9DjoC=iAd3Bg-CR=6JpwGHQN69nfup75gGmA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Mark and Adam. I folloed Mark's guide and the mailman works now.

Best regards,

On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 8:31 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 10/06/2015 07:25 PM, Kai Liu wrote:
> >
> > 1) it says I could re-run configure, but I have run this about 4 years
> and
> > have many mail list. If I re-run configure, will I lose some data?
>
>
> Running configure, make and make install will not result in data loss,
> but you should stop Mailman before make install and start it after.
>
> If you have local mods to the Mailman code or you made settings in
> Defaults.py instead of mm_cfg.py, there can be loss of those things, so
> make your settings in mm_cfg.py and if you have modes to running code,
> be sure you know what they are so you can reapply them.
>
>
> > 2) How to run the postfix as group "daemon"?
>
>
> Postfix is not the issue in your original post. Your OP referred to a
> CGI wrapper group mismatch, not a mail wrapper group mismatch.
>
> You can set the group in Apache with Apache's Group directive, but this
> is a global setting. In Apache 2.4, there is also a VHostGroup directive
> that applies only to a VirtualHost, but not in older versions. See
> <http://httpd.apache.org/docs/>.
>
> For Postfix, if delivery is via aliases, postfix will run the pipe in a
> Mailman alias as the user and group of the owner of the aliases.db file
> in which the alias is found. Note this is the primary group of the owner
> of the file, not the group of the file.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/kliu.gis%40gmail.com
>



-- 

Kai Liu
Ph.D. student
Department of Geography and GeoInformation Science
George Mason University

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct  9 01:32:10 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 16:32:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subscription Form Spam -- It continues . . .
In-Reply-To: <22037.62495.55666.121418@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <a9f32425e8043635c3827e77a08f7d23@emwd.com>
 <20151007151542.GA6225@gsp.org> <5615BD98.6060003@msapiro.net>
 <22037.62495.55666.121418@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <5616FCFA.8060307@msapiro.net>

On 10/07/2015 09:42 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> I wonder how effective the Spamhaus XBL (eXploited host Black List)
> would be at this.  I wouldn't use it unless I were experiencing the
> attack, though.


As I reported in my reply to Rich's post, it appears that Apache on
mail.python.org uses list.blogspambl.com as it's one and only block
list. This does seem to block quite a few POST requests (It isn't
applied to GET).

I had nothing to do with setting this up and can't speak to why this and
only this block list was chosen, but it seems that xbl.spamhaus.org
would be an appropriate (additional ?) list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mjs at clemson.edu  Fri Oct  9 17:31:47 2015
From: mjs at clemson.edu (Matthew Saltzman)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:31:47 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Putting back bounce unsubscribes?
Message-ID: <1444404707.28901.36.camel@fulkerson-math-clemson-edu>

We recently moved our Mailman server to a new location. During setup, we
had some issues with mail that caused a large number of illegitimate
bounces. Recently, these have resulted in Mailman auto-unsubscribing
many users that are actually legitimate and don't normally bounce.

Is there an efficient way to identify and resubscribe these? Is there a
way to clear the bounce records from multiple lists so that we don't
lose more users?

Thanks in advance.

-- 
Matthew Saltzman
Clemson University Math Sciences
mjs AT clemson DOT edu


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct  9 18:33:11 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:33:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Putting back bounce unsubscribes?
In-Reply-To: <1444404707.28901.36.camel@fulkerson-math-clemson-edu>
References: <1444404707.28901.36.camel@fulkerson-math-clemson-edu>
Message-ID: <5617EC47.1010609@msapiro.net>

On 10/09/2015 08:31 AM, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> We recently moved our Mailman server to a new location. During setup, we
> had some issues with mail that caused a large number of illegitimate
> bounces. Recently, these have resulted in Mailman auto-unsubscribing
> many users that are actually legitimate and don't normally bounce.
> 
> Is there an efficient way to identify and resubscribe these? Is there a
> way to clear the bounce records from multiple lists so that we don't
> lose more users?


As far as identifying users who have been removed by bounce processing,
Mailman's bounce log has the info of what addresses were removed from
what lists. You could extract that and create input for Mailman's
bin/add_members.

If you have backups of the list's config.pck files from before the
unsubscribes, you might be able to use those to recover the user's
options and passwords, but otherwise those are gone.

As far as clearing bounce info, I refer you to my answer at
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-September/079873.html>
from the last time you asked this question.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From johnslists at mcswartz.org  Mon Oct 12 00:05:20 2015
From: johnslists at mcswartz.org (John Swartzentruber)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 18:05:20 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Troubleshooting help needed
Message-ID: <561ADD20.90304@mcswartz.org>

Hi,

I've been off this list for a few years, but suddenly today I've run 
into a problem and I'm stumped. I suspect it might be a postfix problem, 
not a mailman problem, but I'm not really sure and I'm hoping someone 
here can give me some pointers.

Until this morning I've had mailman working fine for me (for many years 
and over one year with my current server, which is running CentOS 6). 
Basically one small list that is active daily and a few other lists that 
are mostly inactive. I wanted to disable two of the inactive lists 
without removing them or their archives. To do this, I edited my 
/etc/mailman/virtual-mailman file and added "# " in front of all of the 
entries for those lists. I did the same in the /etc/mailman/aliases 
file. Prior to these edits I had googled and found some messages from 
Mark that seemed to indicate that this was an appropriate approach.

I rebuilt the /etc/mailman/virtual-mailman.db file using "postmap 
virtual-mailman" command. I think I failed to rebuild the aliases.db 
file at this point. I reloaded postfix (postfix reload). I assumed 
everything was fine and went about my day. Around noon I received an 
email from a list user indicating that the list was down. When he 
posted, he got this error:

<heap at xxxx.com>: unknown user: "heap"

Since that time, I've tried about everything to get the lists working again. I uncommented the lines. I've deleted and rebuilt the aliases.db and mailman-virtual.db files. I always reload postfix after any changes. I even rebooted the server. No luck.

As a workaround, I tried to create an alias to a list of email addresses (i.e., bypassing mailman). This alias also is reported as not existing. I'm stumped. None of my other files have changed recently (based on file dates). I don't see any errors in my /var/log/maillog or /var/log/messages logs. Or in any of the /var/log/mailman logs.

My assumption is that some configuration file has an error in it that is keeping all virtual addresses or aliases from working, but I can't see where the error is and I don't get any errors that tell me about it.

One other odd thing that I saw was the at some point after I deleted the aliases.db file, it wasn't getting rebuilt when I ran "newaliases". I ended up rebuilding it using makemap directly.

As I said, I would greatly appreciate any pointers. Is there a log file that I'm missing? Any good way to get diagnostic output or trace things?

John

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Oct 12 01:31:04 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 16:31:04 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Troubleshooting help needed
In-Reply-To: <561ADD20.90304@mcswartz.org>
References: <561ADD20.90304@mcswartz.org>
Message-ID: <561AF138.9070500@msapiro.net>

On 10/11/2015 03:05 PM, John Swartzentruber wrote:
> 
> Until this morning I've had mailman working fine for me (for many years
> and over one year with my current server, which is running CentOS 6).
> Basically one small list that is active daily and a few other lists that
> are mostly inactive. I wanted to disable two of the inactive lists
> without removing them or their archives. To do this, I edited my
> /etc/mailman/virtual-mailman file and added "# " in front of all of the
> entries for those lists. I did the same in the /etc/mailman/aliases
> file. Prior to these edits I had googled and found some messages from
> Mark that seemed to indicate that this was an appropriate approach.


OK

> I rebuilt the /etc/mailman/virtual-mailman.db file using "postmap
> virtual-mailman" command. I think I failed to rebuild the aliases.db
> file at this point. I reloaded postfix (postfix reload). I assumed
> everything was fine and went about my day. Around noon I received an
> email from a list user indicating that the list was down. When he
> posted, he got this error:


Run

postmap /etc/mailman/virtual-mailman

and

postalias /etc/mailman/aliases

assuming those are the correct paths, and run them both as the 'mailman'
user. In any case, the resultant virtual-mailman.db and aliases.db
should be both user and group 'mailman' or whatever the mailman
user/group is on your system.

Note that the command is postmap for the virtual maps and postalias for
the aliases;

If that doesn't fix it, post the output from 'postconf -n' and the
postfix log messages for a failed delivery.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From johnslists at mcswartz.org  Mon Oct 12 02:18:53 2015
From: johnslists at mcswartz.org (John Swartzentruber)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:18:53 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Troubleshooting help needed
In-Reply-To: <561AF138.9070500@msapiro.net>
References: <561ADD20.90304@mcswartz.org> <561AF138.9070500@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <561AFC6D.5060403@mcswartz.org>

On 10/11/2015 7:31 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/11/2015 03:05 PM, John Swartzentruber wrote:
>> Until this morning I've had mailman working fine for me (for many years
>> and over one year with my current server, which is running CentOS 6).
>> Basically one small list that is active daily and a few other lists that
>> are mostly inactive. I wanted to disable two of the inactive lists
>> without removing them or their archives. To do this, I edited my
>> /etc/mailman/virtual-mailman file and added "# " in front of all of the
>> entries for those lists. I did the same in the /etc/mailman/aliases
>> file. Prior to these edits I had googled and found some messages from
>> Mark that seemed to indicate that this was an appropriate approach.
>
> OK
>
>> I rebuilt the /etc/mailman/virtual-mailman.db file using "postmap
>> virtual-mailman" command. I think I failed to rebuild the aliases.db
>> file at this point. I reloaded postfix (postfix reload). I assumed
>> everything was fine and went about my day. Around noon I received an
>> email from a list user indicating that the list was down. When he
>> posted, he got this error:
>
> Run
>
> postmap /etc/mailman/virtual-mailman
>
> and
>
> postalias /etc/mailman/aliases
>
> assuming those are the correct paths, and run them both as the 'mailman'
> user. In any case, the resultant virtual-mailman.db and aliases.db
> should be both user and group 'mailman' or whatever the mailman
> user/group is on your system.
>
> Note that the command is postmap for the virtual maps and postalias for
> the aliases;
>
> If that doesn't fix it, post the output from 'postconf -n' and the
> postfix log messages for a failed delivery.
>

Thanks Mark. That seems to have made things work. I'm guessing the 
problem must have been that my aliases.db and virtual-mailman.db files 
were root:mailman, not mailman:mailman. I did a chown on them and my 
message just went through.

For future reference, where is the postfix log? Is this just the normal 
/var/log/maillog file?
Also, how do I run those commands as the mailman user? I tried "su 
mailman" and "su - mailman", but it says "This account is currently not 
available". I see that it is listed as nologin in /etc/passwd.

Thanks again for your help. I'm glad things are working again and I have 
some clue as to how I inadvertently broke things.

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Oct 12 02:40:16 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 17:40:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Troubleshooting help needed
In-Reply-To: <561AFC6D.5060403@mcswartz.org>
References: <561ADD20.90304@mcswartz.org> <561AF138.9070500@msapiro.net>
 <561AFC6D.5060403@mcswartz.org>
Message-ID: <561B0170.4010209@msapiro.net>

On 10/11/2015 05:18 PM, John Swartzentruber wrote:

> 
> Thanks Mark. That seems to have made things work. I'm guessing the
> problem must have been that my aliases.db and virtual-mailman.db files
> were root:mailman, not mailman:mailman. I did a chown on them and my
> message just went through.


OK, good.

The important thing is the owner of the aliases.db file. See the
"DELIVERY RIGHTS" paragraph in 'man 8 local'. That file needs to be
owned by mailman and not by root.

Postfix will attempt to invoke the pipe in the alias as the owner of the
aliases.db file unless that is root in which case it will invoke it as
the configured 'default_privs' user which is usually 'nobody' and that
won't work.


> For future reference, where is the postfix log? Is this just the normal
> /var/log/maillog file?


Yes, that would be it.


> Also, how do I run those commands as the mailman user? I tried "su
> mailman" and "su - mailman", but it says "This account is currently not
> available". I see that it is listed as nologin in /etc/passwd.


Something like

sudo -u mailman postalias /etc/mailman/aliases

and similarly for postmap.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From borjariesgo at gmail.com  Tue Oct 13 10:38:16 2015
From: borjariesgo at gmail.com (Borja Riesgo Juan)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:38:16 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: BCC and bounces
In-Reply-To: <CAOhW4Wki9gp1wqhm5w9u2oFBxoCuwrSgaeZ=LNYj0u8GDB9pDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOhW4Wki9gp1wqhm5w9u2oFBxoCuwrSgaeZ=LNYj0u8GDB9pDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOhW4WmtiPbNPFLi=GdH0cRFU0f5J3oaQQDnvS_7GOW+F7rw3g@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,


related to
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-September/079767.html


how can i display "undisclosed recpiets"? I remmeber that in first testing
i?ve got this.


Best regards,

Borja Riesgo
borjariesgo at gmail.com

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Oct 13 11:33:30 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:33:30 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Fwd: BCC and bounces
In-Reply-To: <CAOhW4WmtiPbNPFLi=GdH0cRFU0f5J3oaQQDnvS_7GOW+F7rw3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOhW4Wki9gp1wqhm5w9u2oFBxoCuwrSgaeZ=LNYj0u8GDB9pDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOhW4WmtiPbNPFLi=GdH0cRFU0f5J3oaQQDnvS_7GOW+F7rw3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22044.53226.21185.420157@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Borja Riesgo Juan writes:

 > how can i display "undisclosed recpiets"? I remmeber that in first testing
 > i?ve got this.

I don't understand what you want to do.  My first guess is you just
want to put "undisclosed recipients" in the addressee field.  That's
easy.  You can put the string "Undisclosed recipients:;" (without the
quotes) in any address field, and your recipients will see that
string.  (If they don't, it's their MUA doing something weird.)
Technically, it is an empty address group (if there were any
addresses, they would appear between the ":" and the ";").

My second guess is you want to be able to see the addresses that
weren't disclosed.  You can't.  There aren't any.  Instead, the MTA
contacts the receiving MTA and tells it who to deliver to as a
separate command (this is often referred to as the "envelope
address").  So if you get such a message and you're not in the To: or
Cc: header, you're one of the "undisclosed recipients", but you can't
find out who any others are.  And nobody except the sender (and
anybody she tells) can find out who they are.

Note that there's no guarantee that mail was sent to *any* undisclosed
addresses.  It's just a string that is ignored by mail programs, like
a comment.

HTH

Steve

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 14 02:31:35 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 17:31:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: BCC and bounces
In-Reply-To: <22044.53226.21185.420157@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAOhW4Wki9gp1wqhm5w9u2oFBxoCuwrSgaeZ=LNYj0u8GDB9pDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOhW4WmtiPbNPFLi=GdH0cRFU0f5J3oaQQDnvS_7GOW+F7rw3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <22044.53226.21185.420157@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <561DA267.6090302@msapiro.net>

On 10/13/2015 02:33 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Borja Riesgo Juan writes:
> 
>  > how can i display "undisclosed recpiets"? I remmeber that in first testing
>  > i?ve got this.
> 
> I don't understand what you want to do.  My first guess is you just
> want to put "undisclosed recipients" in the addressee field.  That's
> easy.  You can put the string "Undisclosed recipients:;" (without the
> quotes) in any address field, and your recipients will see that
> string.


Also, many MUAs will do that for you if all the recipients are in Bcc:

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From steve at pearwood.info  Wed Oct 14 03:42:22 2015
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:42:22 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Formatting problems with AOL subscribers
Message-ID: <20151014014222.GI13813@ando.pearwood.info>

Hi,

I run an announcement-only mailing list with mailman, and some of my 
subscribers are having problems with the formatting of the text. 
Specifically AOL users.

What I'm sending is plain text with hard end-of-lines, and blank lines 
between paragraphs (rather like this email itself). The emails look as 
intended in my mail clients (Thunderbird and mutt), and in the web 
archive:

http://www.pearwood.info/pipermail/wossname/2015/000028.html

but AOL users say that they get a single block of text with no 
paragraphs. I'm not sure if that means that it just lacks the blank 
lines between paragraphs, or if it means that the entire post is 
converted to a single paragraph.

Has anyone else come across this? Do you know what is going on and is 
there anything I can do to fix it?


Thanks,



-- 
Steve

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 14 04:14:21 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 19:14:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Formatting problems with AOL subscribers
In-Reply-To: <20151014014222.GI13813@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <20151014014222.GI13813@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <561DBA7D.1000800@msapiro.net>

On 10/13/2015 06:42 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
> but AOL users say that they get a single block of text with no 
> paragraphs. I'm not sure if that means that it just lacks the blank 
> lines between paragraphs, or if it means that the entire post is 
> converted to a single paragraph.


Friends don't let friends use AOL (or Yahoo).

OK, that's only a little bit facetious, but there is apparently an AOL
formatting issue here. Using Thunderbird, I sent your post to an AOL
account. Your original looked good as I received it from the
mailman-users list. What I sent looked good in my sent folder. It also
looked good in my Thunderbird inbox for my AOL account (IMAP).

When I looked at it in AOL's web client, it was garbled. The 'paragraph'
structure with blank lines was there, but the paragraphs were rewrapped
strangely. E.g your paragraph

> but AOL users say that they get a single block of text with no
> paragraphs. I'm not sure if that means that it just lacks the blank
> lines between paragraphs, or if it means that the entire post is
> converted to a single paragraph.

renders in AOL's client as

> but
> AOL users say that they get a single block of text with no
> paragraphs. I'm not
> sure if that means that it just lacks the blank
> lines between paragraphs, or if
> it means that the entire post is
> converted to a single paragraph.

So, I don't see exactly what your users report, but I do see anomalous
rendering.

Bottom line is this is an AOL issue. Possibly sending without the hard
returns except at paragraph breaks would help. I just tried that, and
it's better, but there are still extraneous line breaks after 'but' in
the above paragraph and after 'Has anyone' in the subsequent paragraph.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From lac at openend.se  Wed Oct 14 08:48:22 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 08:48:22 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Formatting problems with AOL subscribers
In-Reply-To: <20151014014222.GI13813@ando.pearwood.info>
References: <20151014014222.GI13813@ando.pearwood.info>
Message-ID: <201510140648.t9E6mMxb006089@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:42:22 +1100, "Steven D'Aprano" writes:
>Hi,
>
>I run an announcement-only mailing list with mailman, and some of my 
>subscribers are having problems with the formatting of the text. 
>Specifically AOL users.

This could be an outlook 10 problem not an AOL one.
http://blog.beezix.com/2012/03/16/outlook-2010-give-me-back-my-plain-text-line-breaks/

From borjariesgo at gmail.com  Wed Oct 14 12:37:23 2015
From: borjariesgo at gmail.com (Borja Riesgo Juan)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:37:23 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: BCC and bounces
In-Reply-To: <22044.53226.21185.420157@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAOhW4Wki9gp1wqhm5w9u2oFBxoCuwrSgaeZ=LNYj0u8GDB9pDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOhW4WmtiPbNPFLi=GdH0cRFU0f5J3oaQQDnvS_7GOW+F7rw3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <22044.53226.21185.420157@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAOhW4W=9+Pi3s1PmitAcsVHyV06mRwkASgWJup19ib8CMNaWPQ@mail.gmail.com>

What is the use of "undisclosed recpients" for?


i wan t to try this for see the efect on a user. how can i do that? No w i
don?t know how to do that.

Un saludo

Borja Riesgo
borjariesgo at gmail.com

2015-10-13 11:33 GMT+02:00 Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org>:

> Borja Riesgo Juan writes:
>
>  > how can i display "undisclosed recpiets"? I remmeber that in first
> testing
>  > i?ve got this.
>
> I don't understand what you want to do.  My first guess is you just
> want to put "undisclosed recipients" in the addressee field.  That's
> easy.  You can put the string "Undisclosed recipients:;" (without the
> quotes) in any address field, and your recipients will see that
> string.  (If they don't, it's their MUA doing something weird.)
> Technically, it is an empty address group (if there were any
> addresses, they would appear between the ":" and the ";").
>
> My second guess is you want to be able to see the addresses that
> weren't disclosed.  You can't.  There aren't any.  Instead, the MTA
> contacts the receiving MTA and tells it who to deliver to as a
> separate command (this is often referred to as the "envelope
> address").  So if you get such a message and you're not in the To: or
> Cc: header, you're one of the "undisclosed recipients", but you can't
> find out who any others are.  And nobody except the sender (and
> anybody she tells) can find out who they are.
>
> Note that there's no guarantee that mail was sent to *any* undisclosed
> addresses.  It's just a string that is ignored by mail programs, like
> a comment.
>
> HTH
>
> Steve
>

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Oct 14 15:01:56 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 22:01:56 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: BCC and bounces
In-Reply-To: <CAOhW4W=9+Pi3s1PmitAcsVHyV06mRwkASgWJup19ib8CMNaWPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOhW4Wki9gp1wqhm5w9u2oFBxoCuwrSgaeZ=LNYj0u8GDB9pDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOhW4WmtiPbNPFLi=GdH0cRFU0f5J3oaQQDnvS_7GOW+F7rw3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <22044.53226.21185.420157@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAOhW4W=9+Pi3s1PmitAcsVHyV06mRwkASgWJup19ib8CMNaWPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22046.21060.890760.971044@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Borja Riesgo Juan writes:
 > What is the use of "undisclosed recpients" for?

To let readers know that there are other readers whose identities are
hidden.

 > i wan t to try this for see the efect on a user. how can i do that?

As I wrote before:

 > > I don't understand what you want to do.  My first guess is you just
 > > want to put "undisclosed recipients" in the addressee field.  That's
 > > easy.  You can put the string "Undisclosed recipients:;" (without the
 > > quotes) in any address field, and your recipients will see that
 > > string.

You need the colon ":" and the semicolon ";" in that order, or your
mail server will probably complain, and may not send the mail.

Hope this helps.

Steve

From ovh at forum-pc.net  Wed Oct 14 17:42:40 2015
From: ovh at forum-pc.net (=?UTF-8?Q?Camille_Olli=c3=a9?=)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:42:40 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 : add footer to messages
Message-ID: <561E77F0.6080002@forum-pc.net>

Hi,

i've not found in mailman 3 where to add footer to messages.

Can anyone tell me where it must be done ? :)

Regards.

-- 
Camille Olli?

www.forum-pc.net / www.scoot-boost.com

LinkedIn : http://lnkd.in/_K65k5

From ovh at forum-pc.net  Wed Oct 14 18:12:39 2015
From: ovh at forum-pc.net (=?UTF-8?Q?Camille_Olli=c3=a9?=)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:12:39 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 : add footer to messages
In-Reply-To: <561E77F0.6080002@forum-pc.net>
References: <561E77F0.6080002@forum-pc.net>
Message-ID: <561E7EF7.3090007@forum-pc.net>

Le 14/10/2015 17:42, Camille Olli? a ?crit :
> Hi,
>
> i've not found in mailman 3 where to add footer to messages.
>
> Can anyone tell me where it must be done ? :)
>
> Regards.
>

i've found it can be done by myfooter.txt but it's not enabled, and 
there is no option in web interface to enable it.

-- 
Camille Olli?

www.forum-pc.net / www.scoot-boost.com

LinkedIn : http://lnkd.in/_K65k5

From ovh at forum-pc.net  Wed Oct 14 18:12:58 2015
From: ovh at forum-pc.net (=?UTF-8?Q?Camille_Olli=c3=a9?=)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:12:58 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MM 3 : permit users to manage subscription
In-Reply-To: <560BF251.3050604@forum-pc.net>
References: <5601B5AB.6000600@forum-pc.net>
 <87y4fxetg6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <56027673.4030306@forum-pc.net>
 <87k2rhdz8u.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <560BF251.3050604@forum-pc.net>
Message-ID: <561E7F0A.9040304@forum-pc.net>

Le 30/09/2015 16:31, Camille Olli? a ?crit :
> Le 23/09/2015 15:46, Stephen J. Turnbull a ?crit :
>> Camille Olli? writes:
>>
>>   > > How are the users trying "access accounts"?  Through the web?
>> What is
>>   > > in the webserver log when they try to access an account?
>>   >
>>   > no one accessed for now.
>>
>> I don't understand, before you said they "couldn't access", now you
>> say they "didn't access."  You need to be a lot more precise about
>> what your problem is, or nobody's going to be able to help you.
>>
>> Please continue the conversation on the mailing list.  I myself will
>> have no time to participate for several days.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> they don't have any access.
>
> I added them with the mass subscription option in the mailing list manager.
>

bump ^^

-- 
Camille Olli?

www.forum-pc.net / www.scoot-boost.com

LinkedIn : http://lnkd.in/_K65k5

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 14 18:35:54 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 09:35:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 : add footer to messages
In-Reply-To: <561E7EF7.3090007@forum-pc.net>
References: <561E77F0.6080002@forum-pc.net> <561E7EF7.3090007@forum-pc.net>
Message-ID: <561E846A.6070402@msapiro.net>

On 10/14/2015 09:12 AM, Camille Olli? wrote:
> Le 14/10/2015 17:42, Camille Olli? a ?crit :
>> Hi,
>>
>> i've not found in mailman 3 where to add footer to messages.
>>
>> Can anyone tell me where it must be done ? :)
>>
>> Regards.
>>
> 
> i've found it can be done by myfooter.txt but it's not enabled, and
> there is no option in web interface to enable it.
> 


Questions about Mailman 3 and particularly Postorius and Hyperkitty are
better posted to the mailman-developers at python.org list
<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers>. Please
join that list if you are not already a member and post there.



The people working most closely with MM 3 are much more likely to read
your post on mailman-developers. We will soon have a
mailman3-users at mailman3.org list (running on MM 3 of course), but there
are still infrastructure issues to work out before that list will be
operational.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cnulk at scu.edu  Thu Oct 15 23:37:15 2015
From: cnulk at scu.edu (Chris Nulk)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 14:37:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Additional questions about ban_list
In-Reply-To: <56146ACE.5010606@msapiro.net>
References: <5613E3BC.5090805@scu.edu> <56146ACE.5010606@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56201C8B.3080002@scu.edu>

Hello all,

I would like to thank Aditya Jain and Mark Sapiro for the help with 
adding my negative regexp to the ban_list.  I apologize for being late 
in my response.  I was OBE'd.

Next, in my original message, I forgot to mention I am using Mailman 
v2.1.18-1 so the kind code assistance Mark provided doesn't quite 
match.  My fault for not putting in the version of Mailman. However, 
looking at the code, it seems to be remarkably similar to code I had to 
modify when using an earlier version of Mailman.

The question now is if I change the following in Mailman/MailList.py

     def GetBannedPattern(self, email):
         """Returns matched entry in ban_list if email matches.
         Otherwise returns None.
         """
         ban = False
         for pattern in self.ban_list:
             if pattern.startswith('^'):
                 # This is a regular expression match
                 try:
                     if re.search(pattern, email, re.IGNORECASE):
                         ban = True
                         break
                 except re.error:
                     # BAW: we should probably remove this pattern
                     pass
             else:
                 # Do the comparison case insensitively
                 if pattern.lower() == email.lower():
                     ban = True
                     break
         if ban:
             return pattern
         else:
             return None

to the following ( I have added ** at the beginning of the lines I added 
to indicate the changes - in practice the ** would be spaces)

     def GetBannedPattern(self, email):
         """Returns matched entry in ban_list if email matches.
         Otherwise returns None.
         """
         ban = False
         for pattern in self.ban_list:
             if pattern.startswith('^'):
                 # This is a regular expression match
                 try:
                     if re.search(pattern, email, re.IGNORECASE):
                         ban = True
                         break
                 except re.error:
                     # BAW: we should probably remove this pattern
                     pass
**          elif pattern.startswith('@'):
**              listname = self.internal_name()  # is this correct?
**              try:
**                  mname = pattern[1:].lower().strip()
**                  if mname == listname:
**                      # don't reference your own list
**                      syslog('error',
**                          'Ban_list listfor %s references own list',
**                          listname)
**                  else:
**                      mother = MailList(mname, lock=0)
**                      if mother.isMember(email):
**                          ban = True
**                          break
**              except Errors.MMUnknownListError:
**                  syslog('error',
**                      'Ban_list for list %s references non-existent 
list %s',
**                      listname, mname)
             else:
                 # Do the comparison case insensitively
                 if pattern.lower() == email.lower():
                     ban = True
                     break
         if ban:
             return pattern
         else:
             return None

Am I on the correct path?

Mark, if you have the time and/or inclination, could you explain your 
comments about

	Allowing @list_name in ban_list is a simple code modification if you
	don't care if various 'error' log messages such as list references
	itself or references non-existent list refer to
	'subscribe_auto_approval' even if the error is in ban_list.

Thanks to everyone for the help,
Chris



On 10/6/2015 5:43 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/06/2015 08:07 AM, Chris Nulk wrote:
>> 1. The ban_list attribute is to help prevent unwanted people from
>> subscribing to a list, however, I want to restrict who can subscribe to
>> the list and ban anyone else.  I have the regex for who I want to allow
>> to subscribe but there isn't an allow_list attribute.  Is there an easy
>> way of allowing a regex to control who is able to subscribe?  Or, is
>> there a way to easily invert the regex logic and use it in ban_list?  As
>> an example (not the real regex), say I want to only allow @gmail.com to
>> subscribe to the list but no one else.
>
> As Aditya Jain replied, you can use Python RE negative lookahead
> assertions to create regexps with "doesn't match" conditions. See
> <https://docs.python.org/2/library/re.html#regular-expression-syntax>.
>
>
> Although the posted regexp modified for gmail
>
> ^[^@]+@(?!(.*\.)?gmail\.com$)
>
> will not match and hence allow, addresses like user at subdomain.gmail.com.
> To allow only '@gmail.com' addresses, e.g. to ban all non-'@gmail.com'
> addresses, use
>
> ^[^@]+@(?!gmail\.com$)
>
> Often, if you have the regexp to allow, the regexp to ban may be as
> simple as
>
> ^(?!the_allow_regexp)
>
>
>> 2. An additional requirement is to restrict a subgroup of the addresses
>> from subscribing.  In short, I want to allow all @gmail.com addresses to
>> subscribe except for a known subgroup.  Now the known subgroup is in a
>> Mailman list.  So, can I use a Mailman list in the ban_list attribute
>> similar to using a list in *_these_members attributes?  Or, would I have
>> to modify the code to allow using a Mailman list in the ban_list attribute?
>
> Allowing @list_name in ban_list is a simple code modification if you
> don't care if various 'error' log messages such as list references
> itself or references non-existent list refer to
> 'subscribe_auto_approval' even if the error is in ban_list.
>
> The change would be in this code in Mailman/Mail.List.py
>
>      def GetBannedPattern(self, email):
>          """Returns matched entry in ban_list if email matches.
>          Otherwise returns None.
>          """
>          return self.GetPattern(email, self.ban_list)
>
> change the last line to
>
>          return self.GetPattern(email, self.ban_list, at_list=True)
>
> Or, if you've installed the GLOBAL_BAN_LIST mod, make the change in each
> of the two lines in
>
>          return (self.GetPattern(email, self.ban_list) or
>                  self.GetPattern(email, mm_cfg.GLOBAL_BAN_LIST)
>                 )
>


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct 16 00:07:17 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:07:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Additional questions about ban_list
In-Reply-To: <56201C8B.3080002@scu.edu>
References: <5613E3BC.5090805@scu.edu> <56146ACE.5010606@msapiro.net>
 <56201C8B.3080002@scu.edu>
Message-ID: <56202395.6090602@msapiro.net>

On 10/15/2015 02:37 PM, Chris Nulk wrote:
> 
> The question now is if I change the following in Mailman/MailList.py
> 
>     def GetBannedPattern(self, email):
>         """Returns matched entry in ban_list if email matches.
>         Otherwise returns None.
>         """
>         ban = False
>         for pattern in self.ban_list:
>             if pattern.startswith('^'):
>                 # This is a regular expression match
>                 try:
>                     if re.search(pattern, email, re.IGNORECASE):
>                         ban = True
>                         break
>                 except re.error:
>                     # BAW: we should probably remove this pattern
>                     pass
>             else:
>                 # Do the comparison case insensitively
>                 if pattern.lower() == email.lower():
>                     ban = True
>                     break
>         if ban:
>             return pattern
>         else:
>             return None
> 
> to the following ( I have added ** at the beginning of the lines I added
> to indicate the changes - in practice the ** would be spaces)
> 
>     def GetBannedPattern(self, email):
>         """Returns matched entry in ban_list if email matches.
>         Otherwise returns None.
>         """
>         ban = False
>         for pattern in self.ban_list:
>             if pattern.startswith('^'):
>                 # This is a regular expression match
>                 try:
>                     if re.search(pattern, email, re.IGNORECASE):
>                         ban = True
>                         break
>                 except re.error:
>                     # BAW: we should probably remove this pattern
>                     pass
> **          elif pattern.startswith('@'):
> **              listname = self.internal_name()  # is this correct?
> **              try:
> **                  mname = pattern[1:].lower().strip()
> **                  if mname == listname:
> **                      # don't reference your own list
> **                      syslog('error',
> **                          'Ban_list listfor %s references own list',
> **                          listname)
> **                  else:
> **                      mother = MailList(mname, lock=0)
> **                      if mother.isMember(email):
> **                          ban = True
> **                          break
> **              except Errors.MMUnknownListError:
> **                  syslog('error',
> **                      'Ban_list for list %s references non-existent
> list %s',
> **                      listname, mname)
>             else:
>                 # Do the comparison case insensitively
>                 if pattern.lower() == email.lower():
>                     ban = True
>                     break
>         if ban:
>             return pattern
>         else:
>             return None
> 
> Am I on the correct path?


Yes.


> Mark, if you have the time and/or inclination, could you explain your
> comments about
> 
>     Allowing @list_name in ban_list is a simple code modification if you
>     don't care if various 'error' log messages such as list references
>     itself or references non-existent list refer to
>     'subscribe_auto_approval' even if the error is in ban_list.


In Mailman 2.1.19 much of the code in the GetBannedPattern() method was
moved to a new GetPattern() method which optionally supports the
@listname convention. This was done for subscribe_auto_approval, and
while it's kind of kludgy, the error log messages that you have above
for 'Ban_list listfor %s references own list' and 'Ban_list for list %s
references non-existent list %s' refer to subscribe_auto_approval rather
than ban_list or something variable.

Thus if you had 2.1.19 or later, the code change is much simpler if you
don't mind the error log messages saying subscribe_auto_approval when
they might mean ban_list.

See
<http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/view/head:/Mailman/MailList.py>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cnulk at scu.edu  Fri Oct 16 00:25:00 2015
From: cnulk at scu.edu (Chris Nulk)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:25:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Additional questions about ban_list
In-Reply-To: <56202395.6090602@msapiro.net>
References: <5613E3BC.5090805@scu.edu> <56146ACE.5010606@msapiro.net>
 <56201C8B.3080002@scu.edu> <56202395.6090602@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <562027BC.7080606@scu.edu>



On 10/15/2015 3:07 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/15/2015 02:37 PM, Chris Nulk wrote:
>> The question now is if I change the following in Mailman/MailList.py
>>
>>      def GetBannedPattern(self, email):
>>          """Returns matched entry in ban_list if email matches.
>>          Otherwise returns None.
Am I on the correct path?
>
> Yes.
Great.  Thank you for the help.
>> Mark, if you have the time and/or inclination, could you explain your
>> comments about
>>
>>      Allowing @list_name in ban_list is a simple code modification if you
>>      don't care if various 'error' log messages such as list references
>>      itself or references non-existent list refer to
>>      'subscribe_auto_approval' even if the error is in ban_list.
>
> In Mailman 2.1.19 much of the code in the GetBannedPattern() method was
> moved to a new GetPattern() method which optionally supports the
> @listname convention.
Okay.  I have made a number of code changes to 2.1.9 and several of the 
dropped out/were not needed when we went to 2.1.18-1.  There still are a 
number of changes that keep us from switching without taking a close 
look at needs to be done.  I have recorded all the changes I have made, 
the problem is finding the time to work on it.

Thank you for the information though.

> This was done for subscribe_auto_approval, and
> while it's kind of kludgy, the error log messages that you have above
> for 'Ban_list listfor %s references own list' and 'Ban_list for list %s
> references non-existent list %s' refer to subscribe_auto_approval rather
> than ban_list or something variable.
>
> Thus if you had 2.1.19 or later, the code change is much simpler if you
> don't mind the error log messages saying subscribe_auto_approval when
> they might mean ban_list.
Okay.  That makes sense.

Thanks again for the help.

Chris

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct 16 01:01:01 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 16:01:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Additional questions about ban_list
In-Reply-To: <562027BC.7080606@scu.edu>
References: <5613E3BC.5090805@scu.edu> <56146ACE.5010606@msapiro.net>
 <56201C8B.3080002@scu.edu> <56202395.6090602@msapiro.net>
 <562027BC.7080606@scu.edu>
Message-ID: <5620302D.6050500@msapiro.net>

On 10/15/2015 03:25 PM, Chris Nulk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 10/15/2015 3:07 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
>> This was done for subscribe_auto_approval, and
>> while it's kind of kludgy, the error log messages that you have above
>> for 'Ban_list listfor %s references own list' and 'Ban_list for list %s
>> references non-existent list %s' refer to subscribe_auto_approval rather
>> than ban_list or something variable.
>>
>> Thus if you had 2.1.19 or later, the code change is much simpler if you
>> don't mind the error log messages saying subscribe_auto_approval when
>> they might mean ban_list.
> Okay.  That makes sense.


I have decided to refactor this code to allow the attribute name to be
passed as the argument to GetPattern that says to allow @listname
syntax. This will make the error messages log the correct attribute name
and will simplify extending @listname recognition to other attributes in
the future. Along with this, I'm replacing the matches_p() function in
Moderate.py with calls to the GetPattern() method so all this is in one
place.

I haven't committed this change yet as it still needs testing, but I
expect it to be in 2.1.21.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct 16 06:33:47 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 21:33:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Additional questions about ban_list
In-Reply-To: <56202395.6090602@msapiro.net>
References: <56202395.6090602@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56207E2B.9000606@msapiro.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/15/2015 02:37 PM, Chris Nulk wrote:
>> to the following ( I have added ** at the beginning of the lines I added
>> to indicate the changes - in practice the ** would be spaces)
>> 
>>     def GetBannedPattern(self, email):
>>         """Returns matched entry in ban_list if email matches.
>>         Otherwise returns None.
>>         """
>>         ban = False
>>         for pattern in self.ban_list:
>>             if pattern.startswith('^'):
>>                 # This is a regular expression match
>>                 try:
>>                     if re.search(pattern, email, re.IGNORECASE):
>>                         ban = True
>>                         break
>>                 except re.error:
>>                     # BAW: we should probably remove this pattern
>>                     pass
>> **          elif pattern.startswith('@'):
>> **              listname = self.internal_name()  # is this correct?
>> **              try:
>> **                  mname = pattern[1:].lower().strip()
>> **                  if mname == listname:
>> **                      # don't reference your own list
>> **                      syslog('error',
>> **                          'Ban_list listfor %s references own list',
>> **                          listname)
>> **                  else:
>> **                      mother = MailList(mname, lock=0)
>> **                      if mother.isMember(email):
>> **                          ban = True
>> **                          break
>> **              except Errors.MMUnknownListError:
>> **                  syslog('error',
>> **                      'Ban_list for list %s references non-existent
>> list %s',
>> **                      listname, mname)
>>             else:
>>                 # Do the comparison case insensitively
>>                 if pattern.lower() == email.lower():
>>                     ban = True
>>                     break
>>         if ban:
>>             return pattern
>>         else:
>>             return None
>> 
>> Am I on the correct path?
> 
> 
> Yes.


One more thing however. While the above code looks good for processing
@listname entries in ban_list, you won't be able to add them via the
list admin GUI unless you also modify Mailman/Gui/GUIBase.py. You need
to find the lines in that module that in 2.1.18-1 are

        elif (wtype == mm_cfg.EmailListEx and addr.startswith('@')
                and property.endswith('_these_nonmembers')):

only indented more than above and change them to

        elif (wtype == mm_cfg.EmailListEx and addr.startswith('@')
                and (property.endswith('_these_nonmembers') or
                     property == 'ban_list')):

If you don't make that change, you will still be able to add @listname
entries to a list's ban_list with withlist or other scripts, but the web
admin GUI will report them as bad email addresses.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cnulk at scu.edu  Fri Oct 16 18:22:51 2015
From: cnulk at scu.edu (Chris Nulk)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 09:22:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Additional questions about ban_list
In-Reply-To: <5620302D.6050500@msapiro.net>
References: <5613E3BC.5090805@scu.edu> <56146ACE.5010606@msapiro.net>
 <56201C8B.3080002@scu.edu> <56202395.6090602@msapiro.net>
 <562027BC.7080606@scu.edu> <5620302D.6050500@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <5621245B.2000003@scu.edu>

On 10/15/2015 4:01 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/15/2015 03:25 PM, Chris Nulk wrote:
>>
>> On 10/15/2015 3:07 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>
>>> This was done for subscribe_auto_approval, and
>>> while it's kind of kludgy, the error log messages that you have above
>>> for 'Ban_list listfor %s references own list' and 'Ban_list for list %s
>>> references non-existent list %s' refer to subscribe_auto_approval rather
>>> than ban_list or something variable.
>>>
>>> Thus if you had 2.1.19 or later, the code change is much simpler if you
>>> don't mind the error log messages saying subscribe_auto_approval when
>>> they might mean ban_list.
>> Okay.  That makes sense.
>
> I have decided to refactor this code to allow the attribute name to be
> passed as the argument to GetPattern that says to allow @listname
> syntax. This will make the error messages log the correct attribute name
> and will simplify extending @listname recognition to other attributes in
> the future. Along with this, I'm replacing the matches_p() function in
> Moderate.py with calls to the GetPattern() method so all this is in one
> place.
>
> I haven't committed this change yet as it still needs testing, but I
> expect it to be in 2.1.21.
>
Excellent.  Thank you for the hard work.

Chris

From cnulk at scu.edu  Fri Oct 16 18:25:41 2015
From: cnulk at scu.edu (Chris Nulk)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 09:25:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Additional questions about ban_list
In-Reply-To: <56207E2B.9000606@msapiro.net>
References: <56202395.6090602@msapiro.net> <56207E2B.9000606@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56212505.40107@scu.edu>

On 10/15/2015 9:33 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 10/15/2015 02:37 PM, Chris Nulk wrote:
>>> to the following ( I have added ** at the beginning of the lines I added
>>> to indicate the changes - in practice the ** would be spaces)
>>>
>>>      def GetBannedPattern(self, email):
>>>          """Returns matched entry in ban_list if email matches.
>>>          Otherwise returns None.
>>>          """
>>>          ban = False
>>>          for pattern in self.ban_list:
>>>              if pattern.startswith('^'):
>>>                  # This is a regular expression match
>>>                  try:
>>>                      if re.search(pattern, email, re.IGNORECASE):
>>>                          ban = True
>>>                          break
>>>                  except re.error:
>>>                      # BAW: we should probably remove this pattern
>>>                      pass
>>> **          elif pattern.startswith('@'):
>>> **              listname = self.internal_name()  # is this correct?
>>> **              try:
>>> **                  mname = pattern[1:].lower().strip()
>>> **                  if mname == listname:
>>> **                      # don't reference your own list
>>> **                      syslog('error',
>>> **                          'Ban_list listfor %s references own list',
>>> **                          listname)
>>> **                  else:
>>> **                      mother = MailList(mname, lock=0)
>>> **                      if mother.isMember(email):
>>> **                          ban = True
>>> **                          break
>>> **              except Errors.MMUnknownListError:
>>> **                  syslog('error',
>>> **                      'Ban_list for list %s references non-existent
>>> list %s',
>>> **                      listname, mname)
>>>              else:
>>>                  # Do the comparison case insensitively
>>>                  if pattern.lower() == email.lower():
>>>                      ban = True
>>>                      break
>>>          if ban:
>>>              return pattern
>>>          else:
>>>              return None
>>>
>>> Am I on the correct path?
>>
>> Yes.
>
> One more thing however. While the above code looks good for processing
> @listname entries in ban_list, you won't be able to add them via the
> list admin GUI unless you also modify Mailman/Gui/GUIBase.py. You need
> to find the lines in that module that in 2.1.18-1 are
>
>          elif (wtype == mm_cfg.EmailListEx and addr.startswith('@')
>                  and property.endswith('_these_nonmembers')):
>
> only indented more than above and change them to
>
>          elif (wtype == mm_cfg.EmailListEx and addr.startswith('@')
>                  and (property.endswith('_these_nonmembers') or
>                       property == 'ban_list')):
>
> If you don't make that change, you will still be able to add @listname
> entries to a list's ban_list with withlist or other scripts, but the web
> admin GUI will report them as bad email addresses.
>
Thank you for letting me know.  I am going to try to make the changes 
soon.  We try not to make changes on Fridays unless we really want to 
come in on Saturday to fix things.

Thanks,
Chris

From marc at kprod.net  Sun Oct 18 15:23:05 2015
From: marc at kprod.net (Marc Bourgeois)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 15:23:05 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam/DKIM issues
Message-ID: <CAAjDQEfXOLnaqNa4ZGkzEpcbN0v_BsW+JnCGrYWMd-cMnwkwag@mail.gmail.com>

Hi to everyone,

I'm trying to build a few mailing list with mailman.
I've got some trouble with spam/dkim
(In the past it was working out-of-the-box ! -without dkim)

I'm running a Debian 7.9 server, with postfix.

When I'm sending email from a system user, I can see in mail header :

dkim=pass header.i=@example.xyz

I'm experiencing some difficulties to understand how mailman process
outgoing mail with a valid DKIM header.

When a mailing list user send a mail through my list, sometimes header are
filled with a X-Google-DKIM-Signature (depend on sender, gmail/google app
domain...) but no sign of my original DKIM-Signature

I've tried using REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS yes or no, with no success

Some opendkim issues can be found in mail.log:
opendkim[1507]: 19D41278A1A5: no signing table match for 'kemkem42 at gmail.com
'
Whats this ? Is there a link to my problem ?

Can someone help me with this ?

My conf files below

main.cf

#mtpd_banner = $myhostname ESMTP $mail_name (Debian/GNU)
biff = no

# appending .domain is the MUA's job.
append_dot_mydomain = no

# Uncomment the next line to generate "delayed mail" warnings
#delay_warning_time = 4h

# TLS parameters
smtpd_tls_cert_file=/etc/ssl/certs/ssl-cert-snakeoil.pem
smtpd_tls_key_file=/etc/ssl/private/ssl-cert-snakeoil.key
smtpd_use_tls=yes
smtpd_tls_session_cache_database = btree:${queue_directory}/smtpd_scache
smtp_tls_session_cache_database = btree:${queue_directory}/smtp_scache

# See /usr/share/doc/postfix/TLS_README.gz in the postfix-doc package for
# information on enabling SSL in the smtp client.
myhostname = example.xyz
alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases
alias_maps = hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases
myorigin = example.xyz
mydestination = example.xyz, localhost.localdomain, localhost
#mynetworks = 127.0.0.0/8
mynetworks = 127.0.0.0/8 [::ffff:127.0.0.0]/104 [::1]/128
mailbox_command = procmail -a "$EXTENSION"
mailbox_size_limit = 0
recipient_delimiter = +
inet_interfaces = all
relay_domains = example.xyz, localhost.localdomain, localhost

#secu
smtpd_helo_required = yes
strict_rfc821_envelopes = yes

smtpd_sender_restrictions = permit_mynetworks,
reject_unknown_sender_domain,
warn_if_reject reject_unverified_sender

smtpd_recipient_restrictions =
permit_mynetworks,
reject_non_fqdn_hostname,
reject_non_fqdn_sender,
reject_non_fqdn_recipient,
reject_unauth_destination,
reject_invalid_hostname

smtpd_client_restrictions =
reject_unknown_client,
permit_mynetworks

milter_protocol = 2
milter_default_action = accept
smtpd_milters = inet:localhost:12301
non_smtpd_milters = inet:localhost:12301
inet_protocols = all


master.cf

#
# Postfix master process configuration file.  For details on the format
# of the file, see the master(5) manual page (command: "man 5 master").
#
# Do not forget to execute "postfix reload" after editing this file.
#
# ==========================================================================
# service type  private unpriv  chroot  wakeup  maxproc command + args
#               (yes)   (yes)   (yes)   (never) (100)
# ==========================================================================
smtp      inet  n       -       -       -       -       smtpd
#submission inet n       -       -       -       -       smtpd
#  -o smtpd_tls_security_level=encrypt
#  -o smtpd_sasl_auth_enable=yes
#  -o smtpd_client_restrictions=permit_sasl_authenticated,reject
#  -o milter_macro_daemon_name=ORIGINATING
#smtps     inet  n       -       -       -       -       smtpd
#  -o smtpd_tls_wrappermode=yes
#  -o smtpd_sasl_auth_enable=yes
#  -o smtpd_client_restrictions=permit_sasl_authenticated,reject
#  -o milter_macro_daemon_name=ORIGINATING
#628       inet  n       -       -       -       -       qmqpd
pickup    fifo  n       -       -       60      1       pickup
cleanup   unix  n       -       -       -       0       cleanup
qmgr      fifo  n       -       n       300     1       qmgr
#qmgr     fifo  n       -       -       300     1       oqmgr
tlsmgr    unix  -       -       -       1000?   1       tlsmgr
rewrite   unix  -       -       -       -       -       trivial-rewrite
bounce    unix  -       -       -       -       0       bounce
defer     unix  -       -       -       -       0       bounce
trace     unix  -       -       -       -       0       bounce
verify    unix  -       -       -       -       1       verify
flush     unix  n       -       -       1000?   0       flush
proxymap  unix  -       -       n       -       -       proxymap
proxywrite unix -       -       n       -       1       proxymap
smtp      unix  -       -       -       -       -       smtp
# When relaying mail as backup MX, disable fallback_relay to avoid MX loops
relay     unix  -       -       -       -       -       smtp
-o smtp_fallback_relay=
#       -o smtp_helo_timeout=5 -o smtp_connect_timeout=5
showq     unix  n       -       -       -       -       showq
error     unix  -       -       -       -       -       error
retry     unix  -       -       -       -       -       error
discard   unix  -       -       -       -       -       discard
local     unix  -       n       n       -       -       local
virtual   unix  -       n       n       -       -       virtual
lmtp      unix  -       -       -       -       -       lmtp
anvil     unix  -       -       -       -       1       anvil
scache    unix  -       -       -       -       1       scache
#
# ====================================================================
# Interfaces to non-Postfix software. Be sure to examine the manual
# pages of the non-Postfix software to find out what options it wants.
#
# Many of the following services use the Postfix pipe(8) delivery
# agent.  See the pipe(8) man page for information about ${recipient}
# and other message envelope options.
# ====================================================================
#
# maildrop. See the Postfix MAILDROP_README file for details.
# Also specify in main.cf: maildrop_destination_recipient_limit=1
#
maildrop  unix  -       n       n       -       -       pipe
  flags=DRhu user=vmail argv=/usr/bin/maildrop -d ${recipient}
#
# ====================================================================
#
# Recent Cyrus versions can use the existing "lmtp" master.cf entry.
#
# Specify in cyrus.conf:
#   lmtp    cmd="lmtpd -a" listen="localhost:lmtp" proto=tcp4
#
# Specify in main.cf one or more of the following:
#  mailbox_transport = lmtp:inet:localhost
#  virtual_transport = lmtp:inet:localhost
#
# ====================================================================
#
# Cyrus 2.1.5 (Amos Gouaux)
# Also specify in main.cf: cyrus_destination_recipient_limit=1
#
#cyrus     unix  -       n       n       -       -       pipe
#  user=cyrus argv=/cyrus/bin/deliver -e -r ${sender} -m ${extension}
${user}
#
# ====================================================================
# Old example of delivery via Cyrus.
#
#old-cyrus unix  -       n       n       -       -       pipe
#  flags=R user=cyrus argv=/cyrus/bin/deliver -e -m ${extension} ${user}
#
# ====================================================================
#
# See the Postfix UUCP_README file for configuration details.
#
uucp      unix  -       n       n       -       -       pipe
  flags=Fqhu user=uucp argv=uux -r -n -z -a$sender - $nexthop!rmail
($recipient)
#
# Other external delivery methods.
#
ifmail    unix  -       n       n       -       -       pipe
  flags=F user=ftn argv=/usr/lib/ifmail/ifmail -r $nexthop ($recipient)
bsmtp     unix  -       n       n       -       -       pipe
  flags=Fq. user=bsmtp argv=/usr/lib/bsmtp/bsmtp -t$nexthop -f$sender
$recipient
scalemail-backend unix - n n - 2 pipe
  flags=R user=scalemail argv=/usr/lib/scalemail/bin/scalemail-store
${nexthop} ${user} ${extension}
mailman   unix  -       n       n       -       -       pipe
  flags=FR user=list argv=/usr/lib/mailman/bin/postfix-to-mailman.py
  ${nexthop} ${user}

mm_cfg.py

"""This is the module which takes your site-specific settings.

>From a raw distribution it should be copied to mm_cfg.py.  If you
already have an mm_cfg.py, be careful to add in only the new settings
you want.  The complete set of distributed defaults, with annotation,
are in ./Defaults.  In mm_cfg, override only those you want to
change, after the

  from Defaults import *

line (see below).

Note that these are just default settings - many can be overridden via the
admin and user interfaces on a per-list or per-user basis.

Note also that some of the settings are resolved against the active list
setting by using the value as a format string against the
list-instance-object's dictionary - see the distributed value of
DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER for an example."""


#######################################################
#    Here's where we get the distributed defaults.    #

from Defaults import *

##############################################################
# Put YOUR site-specific configuration below, in mm_cfg.py . #
# See Defaults.py for explanations of the values.            #

#-------------------------------------------------------------
# The name of the list Mailman uses to send password reminders
# and similar. Don't change if you want mailman-owner to be
# a valid local part.
MAILMAN_SITE_LIST = 'mailman'

#-------------------------------------------------------------
# If you change these, you have to configure your http server
# accordingly (Alias and ScriptAlias directives in most httpds)
DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/cgi-bin/mailman/'
PRIVATE_ARCHIVE_URL = '/cgi-bin/mailman/private'
IMAGE_LOGOS         = '/images/mailman/'

#-------------------------------------------------------------
# Default domain for email addresses of newly created MLs
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'endymion.xyz'
#-------------------------------------------------------------
# Default host for web interface of newly created MLs
DEFAULT_URL_HOST   = 'endymion.xyz'
#-------------------------------------------------------------
# Required when setting any of its arguments.
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

#-------------------------------------------------------------
# The default language for this server.
DEFAULT_SERVER_LANGUAGE = 'en'

#-------------------------------------------------------------
# Iirc this was used in pre 2.1, leave it for now
USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER    = 0              # Still used?

#-------------------------------------------------------------
# Unset send_reminders on newly created lists
DEFAULT_SEND_REMINDERS = 0

#-------------------------------------------------------------
# Uncomment this if you configured your MTA such that it
# automatically recognizes newly created lists.
# (see /usr/share/doc/mailman/README.Exim4.Debian or
# /usr/share/mailman/postfix-to-mailman.py)
# MTA=None   # Misnomer, suppresses alias output on newlist

#-------------------------------------------------------------
# Uncomment if you use Postfix virtual domains (but not
# postfix-to-mailman.py), but be sure to see
# /usr/share/doc/mailman/README.Debian first.
# MTA='Postfix'

#-------------------------------------------------------------
# Uncomment if you want to filter mail with SpamAssassin. For
# more information please visit this website:
# http://www.jamesh.id.au/articles/mailman-spamassassin/
# GLOBAL_PIPELINE.insert(1, 'SpamAssassin')

# Note - if you're looking for something that is imported from mm_cfg, but
you
# didn't find it above, it's probably in
/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Defaults.py.

REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS = No


Thanks for reading


Marc
@obscur_moirage <https://twitter.com/obscur_moirage> | marc-bourgeois.net |
dev.kprod.net | g+ <https://plus.google.com/111579343717579702540>

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Oct 18 20:08:09 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 03:08:09 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Spam/DKIM issues
In-Reply-To: <CAAjDQEfXOLnaqNa4ZGkzEpcbN0v_BsW+JnCGrYWMd-cMnwkwag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAjDQEfXOLnaqNa4ZGkzEpcbN0v_BsW+JnCGrYWMd-cMnwkwag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22051.57353.343661.894486@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Marc Bourgeois writes:

 > I'm trying to build a few mailing list with mailman.
 > I've got some trouble with spam/dkim

It's not a Mailman problem as far as I can see.  Mailman doesn't
produce DKIM signatures ever: that's for the MTA to do.

It would help if you explain what the specific symptoms of "trouble"
are.

 > I'm experiencing some difficulties to understand how mailman process
 > outgoing mail with a valid DKIM header.

It does (almost) nothing.  If incoming mail contains a DKIM-Signature
field, it unfolds a multiline header into one line (this is done for
all header fields), and then if REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS is yes, it removes
the field entirely.  On the way back out it simply folds it again (I
believe this should result in exactly the same header field as
received).  Mailman-generated messages do not have a DKIM signature;
that is the job of the MTA.

 > When a mailing list user send a mail through my list, sometimes
 > header are filled with a X-Google-DKIM-Signature (depend on sender,
 > gmail/google app domain...)

Something other than Mailman (possibly your local MTA or MUA) is doing
that.

 > but no sign of my original DKIM-Signature

What system and mail user agent are you looking at this mail that you
expect to contain a DKIM-Signature field?  What original
DKIM-Signature are you talking about?  Ie, why do you expect there to
be an "original" signature by you?

 > opendkim[1507]: 19D41278A1A5: no signing table match for 'kemkem42 at gmail.com'

I guess that is a DKIM authentication failure.  This is happening in
the MTA (Postfix), not in Mailman.

 > Can someone help me with this ?

The Postfix lists are your best resource.

You may have luck with somebody here knowing about Postfix, too, but
that's not me.  Sorry. :-(

Steve


From lists at damorris.com  Mon Oct 19 02:02:04 2015
From: lists at damorris.com (Adam Morris)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 11:02:04 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] best way to transfer members from one list to
 another?
Message-ID: <562432FC.5000102@damorris.com>

Hi all,

I am looking at transferring all members from one list to another list.

What is the easiest way to get the addresses to do this?


-- 


Adam Morris

email:
adam at damorris.com


		


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Oct 19 03:13:31 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 18:13:31 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] best way to transfer members from one list to
 another?
In-Reply-To: <562432FC.5000102@damorris.com>
References: <562432FC.5000102@damorris.com>
Message-ID: <562443BB.5050007@msapiro.net>

On 10/18/2015 05:02 PM, Adam Morris wrote:
> 
> I am looking at transferring all members from one list to another list.
> 
> What is the easiest way to get the addresses to do this?


See the FAQ article at <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030569>.

Also, you may be interested in
<https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/clone_list> if you have sufficient
access to the Mailman server (or
<https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/clone_list2> if Python on the server is
< 2.7).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From marc at kprod.net  Mon Oct 19 11:24:58 2015
From: marc at kprod.net (Marc Bourgeois)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 11:24:58 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam/DKIM issues
In-Reply-To: <22051.57353.343661.894486@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAAjDQEfXOLnaqNa4ZGkzEpcbN0v_BsW+JnCGrYWMd-cMnwkwag@mail.gmail.com>
 <22051.57353.343661.894486@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAAjDQEcTom9jJ-gTYNwL+Yf0wn9ta83zmoVfR5KaYra1KT8yzQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for replying

>
>  > I'm trying to build a few mailing list with mailman.
>  > I've got some trouble with spam/dkim
>
> It's not a Mailman problem as far as I can see.  Mailman doesn't
> produce DKIM signatures ever: that's for the MTA to do.
>
> got it :)


> It would help if you explain what the specific symptoms of "trouble"
> are.
>

When someone write to the list, the relayed mail to other users is
considered as spam in their mailboxes (gmail for instance)

It seems that directly sent mails from mailman, signed with dkim, pass spam
filters


>
>  > I'm experiencing some difficulties to understand how mailman process
>  > outgoing mail with a valid DKIM header.
>
> It does (almost) nothing.  If incoming mail contains a DKIM-Signature
> field, it unfolds a multiline header into one line (this is done for
> all header fields), and then if REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS is yes, it removes
> the field entirely.  On the way back out it simply folds it again (I
> believe this should result in exactly the same header field as
> received).  Mailman-generated messages do not have a DKIM signature;
> that is the job of the MTA.
>

Ok, got it.

I was trying to sign with dkim outgoing relayed mail to avoid spam filters.
Apparently this is not a solution


>
>  > When a mailing list user send a mail through my list, sometimes
>  > header are filled with a X-Google-DKIM-Signature (depend on sender,
>  > gmail/google app domain...)
>
> Something other than Mailman (possibly your local MTA or MUA) is doing
> that.
>


>
>  > but no sign of my original DKIM-Signature
>
> What system and mail user agent are you looking at this mail that you
> expect to contain a DKIM-Signature field?  What original
> DKIM-Signature are you talking about?  Ie, why do you expect there to
> be an "original" signature by you?
>
>  > opendkim[1507]: 19D41278A1A5: no signing table match for '
> kemkem42 at gmail.com'
>
> I guess that is a DKIM authentication failure.  This is happening in
> the MTA (Postfix), not in Mailman.
>
>  > Can someone help me with this ?
>
> The Postfix lists are your best resource.


> You may have luck with somebody here knowing about Postfix, too, but
> that's not me.  Sorry. :-(
>

Thanks !


>
> Steve
>
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Oct 19 19:16:25 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:16:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam/DKIM issues
In-Reply-To: <CAAjDQEcTom9jJ-gTYNwL+Yf0wn9ta83zmoVfR5KaYra1KT8yzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAjDQEfXOLnaqNa4ZGkzEpcbN0v_BsW+JnCGrYWMd-cMnwkwag@mail.gmail.com>
 <22051.57353.343661.894486@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAjDQEcTom9jJ-gTYNwL+Yf0wn9ta83zmoVfR5KaYra1KT8yzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56252569.1090506@msapiro.net>

On 10/19/2015 02:24 AM, Marc Bourgeois wrote:
> 
> When someone write to the list, the relayed mail to other users is
> considered as spam in their mailboxes (gmail for instance)
> 
> It seems that directly sent mails from mailman, signed with dkim, pass spam
> filters


And DKIM signing your outbound Mailman mail may help too, but a lot
depends on why the mail is considered spam by the recipient ISPs.

See the FAQ article at <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030690> for some more on
this.

Also, DMARC may be involved. See <http://wiki.list.org/DEV/DMARC> and
<http://wiki.list.org/x/17891458>.



> I was trying to sign with dkim outgoing relayed mail to avoid spam filters.
> Apparently this is not a solution


And are your outbound posts from Mailman actually being DKIM signed by
your outgoing MTA?

If so, and this doesn't help, there are other possibilities.

If the incoming mail is DKIM signed by the sender's MTA, that signature
normally gets broken by list transformations such as subject prefixing,
addition of msg_footer and content filtering. A broken (invalid) DKIM
signature is *supposed* to be treated by a recipient the same as no
signature, but it may not be. Mailman has the ability to remove incoming
DKIM sigs. This shouldn't help, but it may. See the documentation in
Defaults.py for REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS and consider setting
'REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS = 2' (for current Mailman) in mm_cfg.py.

This could also be a DMARC issue in which case neither removing incoming
DKIM sigs nor DKIM signing outbound mail will help. See the above
referenced wiki pages.


>>  > opendkim[1507]: 19D41278A1A5: no signing table match for '
>> kemkem42 at gmail.com'

opendkim has a signing table (usually /etc/opendkim/SigningTable) that
tells it what keys to sign with for what senders. To sign outgoing list
mail, you want something like

SenderHeaders           List-Post,Sender,From

in opendkim.conf so that if the message has a List-Post: header,
opendkim will consider that address as the sender and sign with the
list's key rather than the From: or other address's key.

Other things I have are

SigningTable            refile:/etc/opendkim/SigningTable

in opendkim.conf and

*@mailman.list.domain	KeyTable_entry_name

in /etc/opendkim/SigningTable.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From her at adm.ku.dk  Tue Oct 20 10:52:22 2015
From: her at adm.ku.dk (Henrik Rasmussen)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 08:52:22 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some subscriber's e-mail adresses contains line
 break unicode character &#8203; 
Message-ID: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D014D845284@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>

In some occasions, a few subscribers of different lists contains the character &#8203; in the mail-address, like me at example.com&#8203;<mailto:me at example.com&#8203;> preventing them from receiving any mails from Mailman. The Unicode is always the same on affected subscribers.

As what I've read it is a zero space line break unicode character. So far the only think I found was about HTML pages containing the character and a single post explains something about the character being added to a page through the Office 365 Public Website editor. But since subscribing to a Mailman list does not involve an editor, I assume that the character could have been added by a webbased mail client.

>From what I've learned, the issue is associated with a random number of subscribers on different lists, having different admins in most cases - I currently have the issue on two lists having the same admin though, but two different subscribers.

I don't know whether the subscribers have subscribed through mail or through the Mailman web interface, but since the problem is random, I assume that the Mailman web interface is not associated. I guess that it must be some kind of common web based MUA they have used, like Gmail or Hotmail or similar.

What could course this and how can I prevent it?

Yours faithfully

Henrik Rasmussen

From Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz  Tue Oct 20 23:42:20 2015
From: Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz (Steven Jones)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:42:20 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] automating adding and removing subscribers
In-Reply-To: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D014D845284@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
References: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D014D845284@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
Message-ID: <HK2PR04MB1186B43D611D713AD8A056B7D4390@HK2PR04MB1186.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Hi,

Is there a way to automate the adding and removing subscribers from another system? such that the list is kept concurrent?



regards

Steven

From cnulk at scu.edu  Wed Oct 21 00:40:43 2015
From: cnulk at scu.edu (Chris Nulk)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:40:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] automating adding and removing subscribers
In-Reply-To: <HK2PR04MB1186B43D611D713AD8A056B7D4390@HK2PR04MB1186.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D014D845284@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
 <HK2PR04MB1186B43D611D713AD8A056B7D4390@HK2PR04MB1186.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <5626C2EB.7010004@scu.edu>

Hello,

It depends on how much work you want to do and how timely the changes 
need to be made.  Here is what we have and do...

We have two lists for each group of users.  Both lists are used. One 
list is dynamically built using LDAP.  That list is considered the 
master list.  Members are not allowed to remove themselves nor change 
any options.  The second list is a regular list built using data from 
the master list.  Users can removed themselves and change their options.

To automate the adding and removing of subscribers on the second list, we:
1. if <listname>.today exists, rename <listname>.today to 
<listname>.yesterday
2. dump the list membership of the masters list to <listname>.today
3. diff -i --context=0 <listname>.today <listname>.yesterday -> 
<listname>.diff  so that each line of <listname>.diff has a '+' before 
the address to be added and a '-' before the address to be removed.
4. Split <listname>.diff into <listname>.add and <listname>.remove where 
<listname>.add has all the '+' addresses (without the '+') and 
<listname>.remove has the equivalent for address to remove.
5. Use the regular Mailman tools, add_members and remove_members, to add 
and remove subscribers to the second list.

We run this process once a day.  When a new user shows up in the master 
list, it takes a day to make it to the second list. Acceptable for us.  
Run more often if you need faster updates to the second list.

The master list doesn't have to be a list.  It can be a list of address 
from a database, LDAP, or anything else.  All the processing to the 
master list information can be done on another system or the same 
system.  Only send the <listname>.add and <listname>.remove files to the 
Mailman system for final processing.

The process works for us.  Diff occasionally glitches on closely matched 
names but a follow on process run weekly fixes the problem.

Good Luck,
Chris

On 10/20/2015 2:42 PM, Steven Jones wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Is there a way to automate the adding and removing subscribers from another system? such that the list is kept concurrent?
>
>
>
> regards
>
> Steven
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/cnulk%40scu.edu


From Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz  Wed Oct 21 00:52:49 2015
From: Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz (Steven Jones)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:52:49 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] automating adding and removing subscribers
In-Reply-To: <5626C2EB.7010004@scu.edu>
References: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D014D845284@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
 <HK2PR04MB1186B43D611D713AD8A056B7D4390@HK2PR04MB1186.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com>,
 <5626C2EB.7010004@scu.edu>
Message-ID: <HK2PR04MB1186F4373B77A5BEAB098BC6D4390@HK2PR04MB1186.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Hi,

No, this sounds good enough and what I thought of doing as the external file/list will be updated once a week which I'll "suck" onto the server.

I just wondered if there was something already written in/for mailman to do this.

thanks

regards

Steven

________________________________________
From: Mailman-Users <mailman-users-bounces+steven.jones=vuw.ac.nz at python.org> on behalf of Chris Nulk <cnulk at scu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, 21 October 2015 11:40 a.m.
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] automating adding and removing subscribers

Hello,

It depends on how much work you want to do and how timely the changes
need to be made.  Here is what we have and do...

We have two lists for each group of users.  Both lists are used. One
list is dynamically built using LDAP.  That list is considered the
master list.  Members are not allowed to remove themselves nor change
any options.  The second list is a regular list built using data from
the master list.  Users can removed themselves and change their options.

To automate the adding and removing of subscribers on the second list, we:
1. if <listname>.today exists, rename <listname>.today to
<listname>.yesterday
2. dump the list membership of the masters list to <listname>.today
3. diff -i --context=0 <listname>.today <listname>.yesterday ->
<listname>.diff  so that each line of <listname>.diff has a '+' before
the address to be added and a '-' before the address to be removed.
4. Split <listname>.diff into <listname>.add and <listname>.remove where
<listname>.add has all the '+' addresses (without the '+') and
<listname>.remove has the equivalent for address to remove.
5. Use the regular Mailman tools, add_members and remove_members, to add
and remove subscribers to the second list.

We run this process once a day.  When a new user shows up in the master
list, it takes a day to make it to the second list. Acceptable for us.
Run more often if you need faster updates to the second list.

The master list doesn't have to be a list.  It can be a list of address
from a database, LDAP, or anything else.  All the processing to the
master list information can be done on another system or the same
system.  Only send the <listname>.add and <listname>.remove files to the
Mailman system for final processing.

The process works for us.  Diff occasionally glitches on closely matched
names but a follow on process run weekly fixes the problem.

Good Luck,
Chris

On 10/20/2015 2:42 PM, Steven Jones wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Is there a way to automate the adding and removing subscribers from another system? such that the list is kept concurrent?
>
>
>
> regards
>
> Steven
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/cnulk%40scu.edu

------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/steven.jones%40vuw.ac.nz

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 21 01:04:14 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:04:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] automating adding and removing subscribers
In-Reply-To: <HK2PR04MB1186B43D611D713AD8A056B7D4390@HK2PR04MB1186.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D014D845284@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
 <HK2PR04MB1186B43D611D713AD8A056B7D4390@HK2PR04MB1186.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <5626C86E.8010105@msapiro.net>

On 10/20/2015 02:42 PM, Steven Jones wrote:
> 
> Is there a way to automate the adding and removing subscribers from another system? such that the list is kept concurrent?


Please don't hijack threads by replying to unrelated posts. Your post is
still threaded with the one you replied to even if you change the Subject:

If you have two lists on the same server/mailman installation

bin/list_members -f <source_listname> | bin/sync_members -f - [other
options] <dest_listname>

all on one line, run by cron as often as you like.

On two different hosts, a cron on the destination that runs
bin/list_members on the source with output to a file (via ssh) followed
by rsync to copy the file to the destination followed by
bin/sync_members on the destination.

Give the list_members and sync_members commands with --help for
documentation.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From marco at stoecker-family.de  Wed Oct 21 01:45:38 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 01:45:38 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
Message-ID: <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de>

On 03/20/2015 05:29 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> On 03/20/2015 05:12 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 03/20/2015 08:42 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> 
>>>
>>> Mar 18 22:16:43 hostname postfix/smtpd[9815]: 6D42445B: 
>>> client=localhost[::1] Mar 18 22:16:43 hostname
>>> postfix/cleanup[9818]: 6D42445B: 
>>> message-id=<5509EB1C.8050605 at stoecker-family.de>
> 
> 
>> OK. This message was received from something on localhost (IPv6
>> [::1] at 22:16:43 and delivered to all the Mailman list
>> recipients.
> 
> 
> 
> [snipped]
> 
>>> Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 6D42445B: removed
>>>
>>> and for grep 4ACCAD07:
>>>
>>> Mar 18 22:16:46 hostname postfix/smtpd[9815]: 4ACCAD07: 
>>> client=localhost[::1] Mar 18 22:16:46 hostname
>>> postfix/cleanup[9818]: 4ACCAD07: 
>>> message-id=<5509EB1C.8050605 at stoecker-family.de>
> 
> 
>> And then 3 seconds later something on the same host delivered a
>> second copy to Postfix which delivered that to the lists also.
> 
> [snipped]
> 
> 
>> So this duplication occurred before Mailman and even before
>> Postfix delivering to Mailman. It could be anything. You could try
>> grepping the log for the Message-ID and see if that gives a clue.
> 
>> Look for an original arrival being passed to some process that
>> returns two copies.
> 
> I also use clamav-milter and spamassassin-milter together with
> postfix, maybe ones of these is the root cause. Thx for your detailed
> help. I think for Mailman this is solved, cause it has nothing to do
> with it.

I see a pattern now, when duplicates occur and it may have to do with
mailman.
If someone in a list send an email to two or three lists on the same
server, the recipients of the list will get two or three times the same
email. If it is sent to one list only, no duplicate occur.
Any glue what the root cause could be?

BR Marco


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 21 02:40:25 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:40:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
 <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de>
Message-ID: <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>

On 10/20/2015 04:45 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> 
> I see a pattern now, when duplicates occur and it may have to do with
> mailman.
> If someone in a list send an email to two or three lists on the same
> server, the recipients of the list will get two or three times the same
> email. If it is sent to one list only, no duplicate occur.
> Any glue what the root cause could be?


If you are saying that people who are members of more than one list
receive a copy from each list of which they are a member when a post is
sent to multiple lists, that's the way Mailman works.

I.e. If I am a member of list1, list2 and list3 and someone posts to all
three lists, I will receive a copy from each list.

The list member setting "Avoid duplicate copies of messages?" (nodupes)
does not affect this. It only affects whether I receive a list copy if I
am also a To: or Cc: addressee of the post.

The list's Non-digest options -> regular_exclude_lists can modify this
behavior somewhat. E.g., if the regular_exclude_lists setting for
list1 at example.com includes list2 at example.com and list3 at example.com and
the regular_exclude_lists setting for list2 at example.com includes
list3 at example.com, then a member of all three lists will receive a copy
of a post sent to all three lists from only list3 at example.com.

regular_exclude_lists need to be set up with care. In particular, if
list2 at example.com is in list1 at example.com's regular_exclude_lists,
list1 at example.com MUST not be in list2 at example.com's
regular_exclude_lists or a post sent to both lists will not be received
by anyone who is a member of both lists.

Note that in the above, member means non-digest member. Digest members
are not affected by this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Oct 21 05:29:30 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 12:29:30 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some subscriber's e-mail adresses contains line
 break unicode character &#8203; 
In-Reply-To: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D014D845284@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
References: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D014D845284@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
Message-ID: <22055.1690.404895.700723@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Henrik Rasmussen writes:

 > In some occasions, a few subscribers of different lists contains
 > the character &#8203; in the mail-address, like
 > me at example.com&#8203;<mailto:me at example.com&#8203;>

This example doesn't make sense to me.  me at example.com can't be a real
address so you didn't cut and paste, and I don't understand why a
plain-text message would have HTML escapes in it.  (I guess maybe your
mail was pure HTML and autoconverted by mailman at mail.python.org?)  Do
these addresses really have an embedded "mailto:" URL?

Regarding the address itself.  I don't understand why an address would
have ZWSP stuck on the end.  I would expect something like
"First Last{ZWSP}<me at example.com>".

 > preventing them from receiving any mails from Mailman. The Unicode
 > is always the same on affected subscribers.

It appears that pasting from (some versions of? some plug-ins of?)
Google Chrome to other applications can have this effect.  Eg,

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7055600/u200b-zero-width-space-characters-in-my-js-code-where-did-they-came-from

 > As what I've read it is a zero space line break unicode character.

Yes.  Technically, a zero-width space, which indicates a word boundary
and *may* be treated as a line-break point or a point for adding space
when text is fully justified.

 > What could course this and how can I prevent it?

Broken software (not Mailman) is injecting the character, and there's
nothing you can do to prevent it at present.  I expect that it's
occurring in the web interface, and my guess would be a list admin
copy-pasting into "mass add members" or a user copy-pasting a full
address with display name into the address field on the listinfo page.

To figure out what to do about it, it would help to have confirmation
that your me at example.com example accurately represents the
configuration that is occuring.

Mark may have a patch to filter these at subscription time and/or a
withlist script to remove them shortly.


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 21 05:59:02 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 20:59:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some subscriber's e-mail adresses contains
 linebreak unicode character &#8203; 
In-Reply-To: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D014D845284@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
References: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D014D845284@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
Message-ID: <56270D86.6050202@msapiro.net>

On 10/20/2015 01:52 AM, Henrik Rasmussen wrote:
> In some occasions, a few subscribers of different lists contains the character &#8203; in the mail-address, like me at example.com&#8203;<mailto:me at example.com&#8203;> preventing them from receiving any mails from Mailman. The Unicode is always the same on affected subscribers.


I am confused. Are you saying the addresses end with an actual Unicode
zero width space character or that they end with the ascii string
'&#8203;'. If the latter, I don't see how this can happen. In no version
of Mailman 2.1 back to pre 2.1.1 has a ';' been allowed in an email
address. If the former, an address with '\u200B' (the python escape for
that character) in the domain would not have been allowed since Mailman
2.1.15, but may have been allowed before that.


> As what I've read it is a zero space line break unicode character. So far the only think I found was about HTML pages containing the character and a single post explains something about the character being added to a page through the Office 365 Public Website editor. But since subscribing to a Mailman list does not involve an editor, I assume that the character could have been added by a webbased mail client.


That is probably correct, but gmail's web mail in particular (which I
once thought was good about stuff like this) and probably others when
composing in 'rich text' and creating a multipart/alternative message,
sometimes creates a text/plain alternative littered with these characters.

Thus, if one composes an email in Gmail's web client to the list-request
address with a body line

subscribe me at example.com

It is possible the text/plain alternative will have a zero width space
appended to the address.


> I don't know whether the subscribers have subscribed through mail or through the Mailman web interface, but since the problem is random, I assume that the Mailman web interface is not associated. I guess that it must be some kind of common web based MUA they have used, like Gmail or Hotmail or similar.


Have you looked at Mailman's subscribe log?


> What could course this and how can I prevent it?


Conjecture on cause above. Prevention - upgrade Mailman to >= 2.1.15

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 21 06:09:39 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:09:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some subscriber's e-mail adresses contains
 linebreak unicode character &#8203; 
In-Reply-To: <22055.1690.404895.700723@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D014D845284@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
 <22055.1690.404895.700723@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <56271003.6070901@msapiro.net>

On 10/20/2015 08:29 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> Mark may have a patch to filter these at subscription time and/or a
> withlist script to remove them shortly.


As I said in another reply, MM >= 2.1.15 will not allow these addresses
to be subscribed. With MM >= 2.1.15, the pipe

bin/list_members -i <listname> | bin/remove_members -f - <listname>

may remove them from <listname>, but it may not because stripping of
leading and trailing whitespace in remove_members may remove the
offending character. There is also a script at
<https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/remove_bad_address.py> that should work
in any case.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From marco at stoecker-family.de  Wed Oct 21 08:15:22 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 08:15:22 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
 <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de> <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56272D7A.20603@stoecker-family.de>

On 10/21/2015 02:40 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/20/2015 04:45 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
>>
>> I see a pattern now, when duplicates occur and it may have to do with
>> mailman.
>> If someone in a list send an email to two or three lists on the same
>> server, the recipients of the list will get two or three times the same
>> email. If it is sent to one list only, no duplicate occur.
>> Any glue what the root cause could be?
> 
> 
> If you are saying that people who are members of more than one list
> receive a copy from each list of which they are a member when a post is
> sent to multiple lists, that's the way Mailman works.
> 
> I.e. If I am a member of list1, list2 and list3 and someone posts to all
> three lists, I will receive a copy from each list.

No, what I was trying to say is, I have a list member which is also
allowed (via accept_these_nonmembers) to write to other lists but is not
a member of these other lists.
So if x at y.com sent an email to list1 at mydomain.com and to
list2 at mydomain.com and x at y.com is only member of list1 at mydomain.com than
x at y.com gets a duplicate email as well as all members of these two lists.
Furthermore if that email is also sent to list3 at mydomain.com, than the
members as well as x at y.com will receive 3 identical emails (content wise).
It seems to me as if mailman, when it hands over to postfix, duplicates
the email so many times as to so many lists the emails was sent. But
this is only my suggestion. I have no idea, where to look into. The
mailman logs and postfix logs gave me no clear picture.



> 
> The list member setting "Avoid duplicate copies of messages?" (nodupes)
> does not affect this. It only affects whether I receive a list copy if I
> am also a To: or Cc: addressee of the post.

This is already set in the intended manner.

> 
> The list's Non-digest options -> regular_exclude_lists can modify this
> behavior somewhat. E.g., if the regular_exclude_lists setting for
> list1 at example.com includes list2 at example.com and list3 at example.com and
> the regular_exclude_lists setting for list2 at example.com includes
> list3 at example.com, then a member of all three lists will receive a copy
> of a post sent to all three lists from only list3 at example.com.

I do not use the regular_exclude_lists
> 
> regular_exclude_lists need to be set up with care. In particular, if
> list2 at example.com is in list1 at example.com's regular_exclude_lists,
> list1 at example.com MUST not be in list2 at example.com's
> regular_exclude_lists or a post sent to both lists will not be received
> by anyone who is a member of both lists.
> 
> Note that in the above, member means non-digest member. Digest members
> are not affected by this.
> 


From her at adm.ku.dk  Wed Oct 21 09:59:34 2015
From: her at adm.ku.dk (Henrik Rasmussen)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 07:59:34 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some subscriber's e-mail adresses contains
 linebreak unicode character &#8203; 
In-Reply-To: <56270D86.6050202@msapiro.net>
References: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D014D845284@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
 <56270D86.6050202@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D014D848377@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>

Sorry, my bad. Output from list_members LISTNAME shows email addresses containing &#8203 like me at example.com&#8203, but without semicolon (;) used in HTML.

All the affected members seems to have been added by mass subscribtion from an admin so maybe the Mailman web interface form have been altered somewhere. I wonder why it's random though.

Thank you for the command. I will look further in to the problem.

Yours faithfully
?
Henrik Rasmussen
Systemadministrator, Core Services






> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> Fra: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
> bounces+her=adm.ku.dk at python.org] P? vegne af Mark Sapiro
> Sendt: 21. oktober 2015 05:59
> Til: mailman-users at python.org
> Emne: Re: [Mailman-Users] Some subscriber's e-mail adresses contains
> linebreak unicode character 
> 
> On 10/20/2015 01:52 AM, Henrik Rasmussen wrote:
> > In some occasions, a few subscribers of different lists contains the
> character &#8203; in the mail-address, like
> me at example.com&#8203;<mailto:me at example.com&#8203;> preventing
> them from receiving any mails from Mailman. The Unicode is always the
> same on affected subscribers.
> 
> 
> I am confused. Are you saying the addresses end with an actual Unicode zero
> width space character or that they end with the ascii string '&#8203;'. If the
> latter, I don't see how this can happen. In no version of Mailman 2.1 back to
> pre 2.1.1 has a ';' been allowed in an email address. If the former, an address
> with '\u200B' (the python escape for that character) in the domain would not
> have been allowed since Mailman 2.1.15, but may have been allowed before
> that.
> 
> 
> > As what I've read it is a zero space line break unicode character. So far the
> only think I found was about HTML pages containing the character and a
> single post explains something about the character being added to a page
> through the Office 365 Public Website editor. But since subscribing to a
> Mailman list does not involve an editor, I assume that the character could
> have been added by a webbased mail client.
> 
> 
> That is probably correct, but gmail's web mail in particular (which I once
> thought was good about stuff like this) and probably others when composing
> in 'rich text' and creating a multipart/alternative message, sometimes creates
> a text/plain alternative littered with these characters.
> 
> Thus, if one composes an email in Gmail's web client to the list-request
> address with a body line
> 
> subscribe me at example.com
> 
> It is possible the text/plain alternative will have a zero width space appended
> to the address.
> 
> 
> > I don't know whether the subscribers have subscribed through mail or
> through the Mailman web interface, but since the problem is random, I
> assume that the Mailman web interface is not associated. I guess that it must
> be some kind of common web based MUA they have used, like Gmail or
> Hotmail or similar.
> 
> 
> Have you looked at Mailman's subscribe log?
> 
> 
> > What could course this and how can I prevent it?
> 
> 
> Conjecture on cause above. Prevention - upgrade Mailman to >= 2.1.15
> 
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy:
> http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-
> archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
> users/her%40adm.ku.dk

From marco at stoecker-family.de  Wed Oct 21 11:06:16 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 11:06:16 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
 <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de> <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <d07e46b386fd462932bf3d6845c0ae5f@metaxa.loswebos.de>



On 10/21/2015 02:40 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/20/2015 04:45 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
>> 
>> I see a pattern now, when duplicates occur and it may have to do with
>> mailman.
>> If someone in a list send an email to two or three lists on the same
>> server, the recipients of the list will get two or three times the 
>> same
>> email. If it is sent to one list only, no duplicate occur.
>> Any glue what the root cause could be?
> 
> 
> If you are saying that people who are members of more than one list
> receive a copy from each list of which they are a member when a post is
> sent to multiple lists, that's the way Mailman works.
> 
> I.e. If I am a member of list1, list2 and list3 and someone posts to 
> all
> three lists, I will receive a copy from each list.
> 
> The list member setting "Avoid duplicate copies of messages?" (nodupes)
> does not affect this. It only affects whether I receive a list copy if 
> I
> am also a To: or Cc: addressee of the post.
> 
> The list's Non-digest options -> regular_exclude_lists can modify this
> behavior somewhat. E.g., if the regular_exclude_lists setting for
> list1 at example.com includes list2 at example.com and list3 at example.com and
> the regular_exclude_lists setting for list2 at example.com includes
> list3 at example.com, then a member of all three lists will receive a copy
> of a post sent to all three lists from only list3 at example.com.
> 
> regular_exclude_lists need to be set up with care. In particular, if
> list2 at example.com is in list1 at example.com's regular_exclude_lists,
> list1 at example.com MUST not be in list2 at example.com's
> regular_exclude_lists or a post sent to both lists will not be received
> by anyone who is a member of both lists.
> 
> Note that in the above, member means non-digest member. Digest members
> are not affected by this.

Dear Mark,

in addition to my former post, where do I find information about how 
mailman is handing over to postfix. Mayby that could help me.

BR
Marco

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 21 16:59:05 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 07:59:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some subscriber's e-mail adresses
 containslinebreak unicode character &#8203; 
In-Reply-To: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D014D848377@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
References: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D014D845284@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
 <56270D86.6050202@msapiro.net>
 <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713D014D848377@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain>
Message-ID: <5627A839.80602@msapiro.net>

On 10/21/2015 12:59 AM, Henrik Rasmussen wrote:
> Sorry, my bad. Output from list_members LISTNAME shows email addresses containing &#8203 like me at example.com&#8203, but without semicolon (;) used in HTML.


That address would be invalid in Mailman >= 2.1.15, but not before.


> All the affected members seems to have been added by mass subscribtion from an admin so maybe the Mailman web interface form have been altered somewhere. I wonder why it's random though.


Perhaps the admin has copied and pasted the addresses from a webmail
page to the Mailman admin page.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 21 17:56:42 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 08:56:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <56272D7A.20603@stoecker-family.de>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
 <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de> <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
 <56272D7A.20603@stoecker-family.de>
Message-ID: <5627B5BA.2000702@msapiro.net>

On 10/20/2015 11:15 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> 
> No, what I was trying to say is, I have a list member which is also
> allowed (via accept_these_nonmembers) to write to other lists but is not
> a member of these other lists.
> So if x at y.com sent an email to list1 at mydomain.com and to
> list2 at mydomain.com and x at y.com is only member of list1 at mydomain.com than
> x at y.com gets a duplicate email as well as all members of these two lists.


I'm still confused. Are you saying here that someone who is a member of
say list1 and not list2 will get two copies of the message?. If so, look
at the complete headers of both messages. Do they both come from Mailman
and does one of them come from list1 and one from list2?


> Furthermore if that email is also sent to list3 at mydomain.com, than the
> members as well as x at y.com will receive 3 identical emails (content wise).
> It seems to me as if mailman, when it hands over to postfix, duplicates
> the email so many times as to so many lists the emails was sent. But
> this is only my suggestion. I have no idea, where to look into. The
> mailman logs and postfix logs gave me no clear picture.


The Mailman 'smtp' log will have entries like

Oct 18 17:47:02 2015 (pppp) <message-id> smtp to listname for nnn
recips, completed in t.ttt seconds

where pppp is the PID of OutgoingRunner, message-id is the actual
message-id of the post, listname is the list name and nnn is the number
of recipients sent to.

Postfix's log will have complete information as to what was delivered to
Mailman and received from Mailman and subsequently delivered.

Mailman's logs may be in /var/lib/mailman/logs/,
/usr/local/mailman/logs, /var/log/mailman/ or ??? depending on how
mailman was installed. Postfix's logs are usually /var/log/maillog or
/var/log/mail.log.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From marco at stoecker-family.de  Wed Oct 21 23:14:04 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:14:04 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <5627B5BA.2000702@msapiro.net>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
 <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de> <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
 <56272D7A.20603@stoecker-family.de> <5627B5BA.2000702@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <5628001C.6020400@stoecker-family.de>

On 10/21/2015 05:56 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/20/2015 11:15 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
>>
>> No, what I was trying to say is, I have a list member which is also
>> allowed (via accept_these_nonmembers) to write to other lists but is not
>> a member of these other lists.
>> So if x at y.com sent an email to list1 at mydomain.com and to
>> list2 at mydomain.com and x at y.com is only member of list1 at mydomain.com than
>> x at y.com gets a duplicate email as well as all members of these two lists.
> 
> 
> I'm still confused. Are you saying here that someone who is a member of
> say list1 and not list2 will get two copies of the message?. If so, look
> at the complete headers of both messages. Do they both come from Mailman
> and does one of them come from list1 and one from list2?

That is exactly what I've tried to say :-)
And not only that 'someone' but also all members of list1 and list2 get
two copies (ore more).

How do I identify whether the message comes from mailman or list1 or list2?
Sorry for the questions, I'm not that experienced so far.

> 
> 
>> Furthermore if that email is also sent to list3 at mydomain.com, than the
>> members as well as x at y.com will receive 3 identical emails (content wise).
>> It seems to me as if mailman, when it hands over to postfix, duplicates
>> the email so many times as to so many lists the emails was sent. But
>> this is only my suggestion. I have no idea, where to look into. The
>> mailman logs and postfix logs gave me no clear picture.
> 
> 
> The Mailman 'smtp' log will have entries like

Will have I look into it and come back here

> 
> Oct 18 17:47:02 2015 (pppp) <message-id> smtp to listname for nnn
> recips, completed in t.ttt seconds
> 
> where pppp is the PID of OutgoingRunner, message-id is the actual
> message-id of the post, listname is the list name and nnn is the number
> of recipients sent to.
> 
> Postfix's log will have complete information as to what was delivered to
> Mailman and received from Mailman and subsequently delivered.
> 
> Mailman's logs may be in /var/lib/mailman/logs/,
> /usr/local/mailman/logs, /var/log/mailman/ or ??? depending on how
> mailman was installed. Postfix's logs are usually /var/log/maillog or
> /var/log/mail.log.
> 


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 21 23:45:06 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:45:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <5628001C.6020400@stoecker-family.de>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
 <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de> <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
 <56272D7A.20603@stoecker-family.de> <5627B5BA.2000702@msapiro.net>
 <5628001C.6020400@stoecker-family.de>
Message-ID: <56280762.4030306@msapiro.net>

On 10/21/2015 02:14 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> 
> How do I identify whether the message comes from mailman or list1 or list2?
> Sorry for the questions, I'm not that experienced so far.


Here are some of the headers of your message as I received it from the
mailman-users list with my comments interspersed. How you actually see
these headers depends on your mail client. It may be something like
"show original" or "view source" or something else depending on the
client. I have removed some headers which aren't relevant to this
discussion.

> Return-Path: <mailman-users-bounces+mark=msapiro.net at python.org>

Above shows the envelope sender of the message which is the VERPed
mailman-users-bounces address.

> X-Original-To: mark at msapiro.net
> Delivered-To: msapiro_mark at sbh16.songbird.com

Above are from my Postfix.


> Received: from mail.python.org (mail.python.org [82.94.164.166])
> 	(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits))
> 	(No client certificate requested)
> 	by sbh16.songbird.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CDC511E0176
> 	for <mark at msapiro.net>; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:14:41 -0700 (PDT)

>From my Postfix showing receipt from mail.python.org and id 4CDC511E0176
which I can find in my Postfix logs.


> Received: from albatross.python.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])
> 	by mail.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3nh4Mg1yt4zR5g
> 	for <mark at msapiro.net>; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:14:39 +0200 (CEST)

Postfix on albatross.python.org (another name for mail.python.org)
received the message from Mailman on mail.python.org.


> X-Original-To: mailman-users at python.org
> Delivered-To: mailman-users at mail.python.org
> Received: from albatross.python.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])
>  by mail.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3nh4M35Td4zQHp
>  for <mailman-users at python.org>; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:14:07 +0200 (CEST)

mail.python.org receiving and delivering the message to Mailman


(spam_bayes related headers removed)
> Received: from localhost (HELO mail.python.org) (127.0.0.1)
>  by albatross.python.org with SMTP; 21 Oct 2015 23:14:07 +0200

Message passing to spam_bayes processing on albatross.python.org.


> Received: from metaxa.loswebos.de (metaxa.loswebos.de [213.187.93.206])
>  (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits))
>  (No client certificate requested)
>  by mail.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS
>  for <mailman-users at python.org>; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:14:06 +0200 (CEST)

Message received from your relay metaxa.loswebos.de by mail.python.org.


> Received: from [192.168.178.20] (ipbcc26d30.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de
>  [188.194.109.48])
>  by metaxa.loswebos.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D09F03A8C012
>  for <mailman-users at python.org>; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:14:04 +0200 (CEST)

Message received from you by your relay.

Note that all the above headers are added by MTAs to the beginning of
the message so the "higher up" they are, the more recent they are.


> Message-ID: <5628001C.6020400 at stoecker-family.de>
> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:14:04 +0200
> From: Marco Stoecker <marco at stoecker-family.de>
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64;
>  rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/31.8.0
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: mailman-users at python.org
> References: <5509F231.4010102 at stoecker-family.de>
>  <550AF7BE.4010208 at msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603 at stoecker-family.de>
>  <550B2460.8020100 at msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302 at stoecker-family.de>
>  <550B53E6.5020209 at msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800 at stoecker-family.de>
>  <550C34ED.2070207 at msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306 at stoecker-family.de>
>  <550C46EC.6020900 at msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303 at stoecker-family.de>
>  <5626D222.9070103 at stoecker-family.de> <5626DEF9.3090400 at msapiro.net>
>  <56272D7A.20603 at stoecker-family.de> <5627B5BA.2000702 at msapiro.net>
> In-Reply-To: <5627B5BA.2000702 at msapiro.net>

The group above are all in your original message as sent.


> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] duplicates

This may have been modified by Mailman's subject prefixing.


> X-BeenThere: mailman-users at python.org

This was added by mailman to say the message has been processed by the
mailman-users at python.org list.

> X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20+
> Precedence: list
> List-Id: Mailman mailing list management users <mailman-users.python.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users>,
>  <mailto:mailman-users-request at python.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> List-Archive: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/>
> List-Post: <mailto:mailman-users at python.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:mailman-users-request at python.org?subject=help>
> List-Subscribe: <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users>,
>  <mailto:mailman-users-request at python.org?subject=subscribe>

Added by Mailman.


> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Possibly modified by Mailman's content filtering but not in this case
since there is no X-Content-Filtered-By: header.


> Errors-To: mailman-users-bounces+mark=msapiro.net at python.org
> Sender: "Mailman-Users" <mailman-users-bounces+mark=msapiro.net at python.org>

Added by Mailman.

If you just get the complete headers from all the duplicates of one
message received by one user and post those, I can help interpret them.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From thomas at ifi.uio.no  Wed Oct 21 23:37:24 2015
From: thomas at ifi.uio.no (Thomas Gramstad)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:37:24 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Welcome to the "Sathynz" mailing list (fwd)
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.20.1510212335340.8379@gilly.ifi.uio.no>

These are spammers, using a Mailman installation to add all 
e-mail addresses they can find. Can something be done about that?

Thomas Gramstad


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:20:58 -0700
From: sathynz-request at sathy.co.nz
To: sigar at ifi.uio.no
Subject: Welcome to the "Sathynz" mailing list

Welcome to the Sathynz at sathy.co.nz mailing list!

To post to this list, send your message to:

   sathynz at sathy.co.nz

General information about the mailing list is at:

   http://sathy.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/sathynz_sathy.co.nz

If you ever want to unsubscribe or change your options (eg, switch to
or from digest mode, change your password, etc.), visit your
subscription page at:

   http://sathy.co.nz/mailman/options/sathynz_sathy.co.nz/sigar%40ifi.uio.no


You can also make such adjustments via email by sending a message to:

   Sathynz-request at sathy.co.nz

with the word `help' in the subject or body (don't include the
quotes), and you will get back a message with instructions.

You must know your password to change your options (including changing
the password, itself) or to unsubscribe without confirmation.  It is:

   waidpimo

Normally, Mailman will remind you of your sathy.co.nz mailing list
passwords once every month, although you can disable this if you
prefer.  This reminder will also include instructions on how to
unsubscribe or change your account options.  There is also a button on
your options page that will email your current password to you.

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct 22 00:41:11 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 15:41:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Welcome to the "Sathynz" mailing list (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.20.1510212335340.8379@gilly.ifi.uio.no>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.20.1510212335340.8379@gilly.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <56281487.5020105@msapiro.net>

On 10/21/2015 02:37 PM, Thomas Gramstad wrote:
> These are spammers, using a Mailman installation to add all e-mail
> addresses they can find. Can something be done about that?


The list at <http://sathy.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/sathynz_sathy.co.nz> no
longer exists, probably because someone reported the abuse to their
hosting service.

Using tools like dig and whois, one can usually find out who the hosting
provider is for a domain and report abuse there.

Unfortunately, while the GNU Mailman project abhors such abuse of our
software, there's nothing we as a free, open source project can do to
prevent it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From kapuzino at web.de  Thu Oct 22 15:09:17 2015
From: kapuzino at web.de (kapuzino at web.de)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 21:09:17 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman only deliveres inside server
Message-ID: <3nhdlW6Zs1zN7k@mail.python.org>

Hello

I'm using Mailman 2.1.18 as a customer of hosting.

Mailman had worked fine primarily.
After a server-update it deliveres messages only to email-adresses hostet on the same server (my own adresses connected to two different tld's).

Using my own adresses everything is going well.
External adresses only can write to the list.
They don't get any mail an any request answers.

A simple forwarding-list to the same adresses - established in plesk-panel - is doing its job.

The system is a linux debian 3.16.7.
Mailman was installed via Plesk.
It uses Postfix und Dovecot.

My hoster is a small one, I have a cheap account and I'm the only mailman user.
So I want to help him solving.

The hoster-guy is not familiar to mailman.
He changed the server two times, reinstalled mailman 2.1.5 and then 2.1.18.
Now he is out of idea.

Is this a known problem ?
A simple restriction server-setting ?

Is any further information needed ?
(phpinfo ?)

If any Error logs are required, I have to ask the hoster.

hoping for help

regards 
Kapuzino


 









From gao at pztop.com  Sun Oct 25 17:06:05 2015
From: gao at pztop.com (Gao)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 14:06:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman only deliveres inside server
In-Reply-To: <3nhdlW6Zs1zN7k@mail.python.org>
References: <3nhdlW6Zs1zN7k@mail.python.org>
Message-ID: <562D443D.2000105@pztop.com>

I am having the same problem on a new build mail server. It took me a 
while to figure out the solution. When mailman failed send out mail for 
external domain, I got this in mailllog:

Oct 23 22:22:15 zeta postfix/smtpd[5288]: connect from localhost[::1]
Oct 23 22:22:15 zeta postfix/smtpd[5288]: NOQUEUE: reject: RCPT from 
localhost[::1]: 454 4.7.1 <someone at gmail.com>: Relay access denied; 
from=<mailman-bounces at mydomain.com> to=<someone at gmail.com> proto=ESMTP 
helo=<zeta.mydomain.com>
Oct 23 22:22:15 zeta postfix/smtpd[5288]: disconnect from localhost[::1]

I turned on debug for postfix then it show me that it is mynetwork seems 
not includles localhost. So I changed my main.cf:
mynetworks = 192.168.1.0/24, 127.0.0.0/8 localhost

After this the problem is gone and mail send out as before.

Not sure if this helps your case.

Gao

On 10/22/2015 12:09 PM, kapuzino at web.de wrote:
> Hello
>
> I'm using Mailman 2.1.18 as a customer of hosting.
>
> Mailman had worked fine primarily.
> After a server-update it deliveres messages only to email-adresses hostet on the same server (my own adresses connected to two different tld's).
>
> Using my own adresses everything is going well.
> External adresses only can write to the list.
> They don't get any mail an any request answers.
>
> A simple forwarding-list to the same adresses - established in plesk-panel - is doing its job.
>
> The system is a linux debian 3.16.7.
> Mailman was installed via Plesk.
> It uses Postfix und Dovecot.
>
> My hoster is a small one, I have a cheap account and I'm the only mailman user.
> So I want to help him solving.
>
> The hoster-guy is not familiar to mailman.
> He changed the server two times, reinstalled mailman 2.1.5 and then 2.1.18.
> Now he is out of idea.
>
> Is this a known problem ?
> A simple restriction server-setting ?
>
> Is any further information needed ?
> (phpinfo ?)
>
> If any Error logs are required, I have to ask the hoster.
>
> hoping for help
>
> regards
> Kapuzino
>
>
>   
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/gao%40pztop.com


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Oct 25 17:19:28 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 14:19:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman only deliveres inside server
In-Reply-To: <3nhdlW6Zs1zN7k@mail.python.org>
References: <3nhdlW6Zs1zN7k@mail.python.org>
Message-ID: <562D4760.8010902@msapiro.net>

On 10/22/2015 12:09 PM, kapuzino at web.de wrote:
> 
> Mailman had worked fine primarily.
> After a server-update it deliveres messages only to email-adresses hostet on the same server (my own adresses connected to two different tld's).
...
> The hoster-guy is not familiar to mailman.
> He changed the server two times, reinstalled mailman 2.1.5 and then 2.1.18.
> Now he is out of idea.


This is almost certainly a Postfix issue, not a Mailman issue.


> Is this a known problem ?


There are many issues that can affect mail delivery. They almost all
have to do with things outside of Mailman.


> A simple restriction server-setting ?


There's no such setting in Mailman.


> Is any further information needed ?
> (phpinfo ?)
> 
> If any Error logs are required, I have to ask the hoster.


The hoster needs to check the Postfix log (/var/log/mail.log) to see
what it says about delivery.

If there is a Mailman issue, the hoster should contact us directly.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From marco at stoecker-family.de  Mon Oct 26 17:14:07 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 22:14:07 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <56280762.4030306@msapiro.net>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
 <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de> <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
 <56272D7A.20603@stoecker-family.de> <5627B5BA.2000702@msapiro.net>
 <5628001C.6020400@stoecker-family.de> <56280762.4030306@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <19b3638681b7c2f88dea2665378882b2@metaxa.loswebos.de>

On 10/21/2015 11:45 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/21/2015 02:14 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
>> 
>> How do I identify whether the message comes from mailman or list1 or 
>> list2?
>> Sorry for the questions, I'm not that experienced so far.
> 
> 
> Here are some of the headers of your message as I received it from the
> mailman-users list with my comments interspersed. How you actually see
> these headers depends on your mail client. It may be something like
> "show original" or "view source" or something else depending on the
> client. I have removed some headers which aren't relevant to this
> discussion.
> 
>> Return-Path: <mailman-users-bounces+mark=msapiro.net at python.org>
> 
> Above shows the envelope sender of the message which is the VERPed
> mailman-users-bounces address.
> 

<snipped>

> 
> Added by Mailman.
> 
> If you just get the complete headers from all the duplicates of one
> message received by one user and post those, I can help interpret them.

This would be very great!
I did attach the header from a recent message I got last week. I'm a 
member of a
list and the sender sent this mail to 5 mailinglists on our server. Each
member of these 5 lists got 5 messages.

But the email, which I sent last week, with the attachement never made 
it to this list. How can I send the headers instead, cause this email 
would be very long?

Did I understood right, all entry in /var/log/mailman/smtp file are made
by mailman and in this case it could be an indicator that mailman send
the email 5 times to each list?

And here is the corresponding entry in the /var/log/mailman/smtp file:

Oct 22 10:40:33 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 21.833 seconds
Oct 22 10:41:02 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
ak-leiter for 13 recips, completed in 28.426 seconds
Oct 22 10:41:12 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
gruppensprecher for 6 recips, completed in 10.447 seconds
Oct 22 10:41:23 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
kollegium for 16 recips, completed in 11.236 seconds
Oct 22 10:41:29 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
vorstand for 3 recips, completed in 5.095 seconds
Oct 22 10:41:39 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 10.615 seconds
Oct 22 10:41:50 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
kollegium for 16 recips, completed in 10.871 seconds
Oct 22 10:41:55 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
vorstand for 3 recips, completed in 4.794 seconds
Oct 22 10:42:06 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
gruppensprecher for 6 recips, completed in 10.890 seconds
Oct 22 10:42:22 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
ak-leiter for 13 recips, completed in 15.688 seconds
Oct 22 10:42:32 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 10.289 seconds
Oct 22 10:42:43 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
gruppensprecher for 6 recips, completed in 10.736 seconds
Oct 22 10:42:53 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
kollegium for 16 recips, completed in 10.497 seconds
Oct 22 10:43:09 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
ak-leiter for 13 recips, completed in 16.035 seconds
Oct 22 10:43:15 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
vorstand for 3 recips, completed in 5.468 seconds
Oct 22 10:43:25 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
gruppensprecher for 6 recips, completed in 10.680 seconds
Oct 22 10:43:31 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
vorstand for 3 recips, completed in 5.253 seconds
Oct 22 10:43:46 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
ak-leiter for 13 recips, completed in 15.867 seconds
Oct 22 10:43:57 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
kollegium for 16 recips, completed in 10.956 seconds
Oct 22 10:44:09 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 11.101 seconds
Oct 22 10:44:18 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
gruppensprecher for 6 recips, completed in 9.922 seconds
Oct 22 10:44:28 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 9.971 seconds
Oct 22 10:44:39 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
kollegium for 16 recips, completed in 10.315 seconds
Oct 22 10:44:55 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
ak-leiter for 13 recips, completed in 16.343 seconds
Oct 22 10:45:00 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
vorstand for 3 recips, completed in 4.947 seconds

BR
Marco

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Oct 26 18:32:28 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 15:32:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <19b3638681b7c2f88dea2665378882b2@metaxa.loswebos.de>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
 <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de> <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
 <56272D7A.20603@stoecker-family.de> <5627B5BA.2000702@msapiro.net>
 <5628001C.6020400@stoecker-family.de> <56280762.4030306@msapiro.net>
 <19b3638681b7c2f88dea2665378882b2@metaxa.loswebos.de>
Message-ID: <562EA9FC.7090007@msapiro.net>

On 10/26/2015 02:14 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:

> I did attach the header from a recent message I got last week. I'm a
> member of a
> list and the sender sent this mail to 5 mailinglists on our server. Each
> member of these 5 lists got 5 messages.
> 
> But the email, which I sent last week, with the attachement never made
> it to this list. How can I send the headers instead, cause this email
> would be very long?


I never saw such a message, even in the moderation queue because of size.

You can view the raw message, select all the headers, copy and paste
them into a post.


> Did I understood right, all entry in /var/log/mailman/smtp file are made
> by mailman and in this case it could be an indicator that mailman send
> the email 5 times to each list?


Yes, the smtp log entries indicate each of the 5 lists received 5
messages with message-id <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de>.

Also, delivery from Mailman to Postfix seems slow, but that's a separate
issue and may not be a problem for you.


> And here is the corresponding entry in the /var/log/mailman/smtp file:
> 
> Oct 22 10:40:33 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
> beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 21.833 seconds
...
> Oct 22 10:41:39 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
> beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 10.615 seconds
...
> Oct 22 10:42:32 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
> beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 10.289 seconds
...
> Oct 22 10:44:09 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
> beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 11.101 seconds
...
> Oct 22 10:44:28 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
> beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 9.971 seconds


So we know that each list is receiving 5 copies of the message. I'm am
certain this duplication occurs in the MTA delivering to Mailman or
before and not in Mailman itself.

The most helpful information would be the Postfix log entries from
several minutes before Oct 22 10:40:33 2015 up to Oct 22 10:44:28 2015,

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From marco at stoecker-family.de  Tue Oct 27 03:30:01 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 08:30:01 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <562EA9FC.7090007@msapiro.net>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
 <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de> <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
 <56272D7A.20603@stoecker-family.de> <5627B5BA.2000702@msapiro.net>
 <5628001C.6020400@stoecker-family.de> <56280762.4030306@msapiro.net>
 <19b3638681b7c2f88dea2665378882b2@metaxa.loswebos.de>
 <562EA9FC.7090007@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <562F27F9.1080203@stoecker-family.de>

On 10/26/2015 11:32 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/26/2015 02:14 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> 
>> I did attach the header from a recent message I got last week. I'm a
>> member of a
>> list and the sender sent this mail to 5 mailinglists on our server. Each
>> member of these 5 lists got 5 messages.
>>
>> But the email, which I sent last week, with the attachement never made
>> it to this list. How can I send the headers instead, cause this email
>> would be very long?
> 
> 
> I never saw such a message, even in the moderation queue because of size.
> 
> You can view the raw message, select all the headers, copy and paste
> them into a post.
> 
> 
>> Did I understood right, all entry in /var/log/mailman/smtp file are made
>> by mailman and in this case it could be an indicator that mailman send
>> the email 5 times to each list?
> 
> 
> Yes, the smtp log entries indicate each of the 5 lists received 5
> messages with message-id <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de>.
> 
> Also, delivery from Mailman to Postfix seems slow, but that's a separate
> issue and may not be a problem for you.
> 
> 
>> And here is the corresponding entry in the /var/log/mailman/smtp file:
>>
>> Oct 22 10:40:33 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
>> beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 21.833 seconds
> ...
>> Oct 22 10:41:39 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
>> beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 10.615 seconds
> ...
>> Oct 22 10:42:32 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
>> beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 10.289 seconds
> ...
>> Oct 22 10:44:09 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
>> beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 11.101 seconds
> ...
>> Oct 22 10:44:28 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
>> beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 9.971 seconds
> 
> 
> So we know that each list is receiving 5 copies of the message. I'm am
> certain this duplication occurs in the MTA delivering to Mailman or
> before and not in Mailman itself.
> 
> The most helpful information would be the Postfix log entries from
> several minutes before Oct 22 10:40:33 2015 up to Oct 22 10:44:28 2015,
> 
This is the related mail.log entry:

Oct 22 10:40:05 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4898]: connect from localhost[::1]
Oct 22 10:40:05 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4898]: BF9AD1C94:
client=localhost[::1]
Oct 22 10:40:05 wakis02 postfix/cleanup[4901]: BF9AD1C94:
message-id=<008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de>
Oct 22 10:40:10 wakis02 postfix/qmgr[1304]: BF9AD1C94:
from=<alexandrakick at web.de>, size=312694, nrcpt=5 (queue active)
Oct 22 10:40:10 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4898]: ADDE72652:
client=localhost[::1]
Oct 22 10:40:10 wakis02 postfix/cleanup[4901]: ADDE72652:
message-id=<008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de>
Oct 22 10:40:10 wakis02 postfix/local[4903]: BF9AD1C94:
to=<beisitz at localhost>, relay=local, delay=5.2, delays=4.9/0.03/0/0.3,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post beisitz)
Oct 22 10:40:10 wakis02 postfix/local[4909]: BF9AD1C94:
to=<vorstand at localhost>, relay=local, delay=5.3, delays=4.9/0.11/0/0.29,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post vorstand)
Oct 22 10:40:10 wakis02 postfix/local[4907]: BF9AD1C94:
to=<kollegium at localhost>, relay=local, delay=5.3,
delays=4.9/0.07/0/0.33, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post kollegium)
Oct 22 10:40:10 wakis02 postfix/local[4905]: BF9AD1C94:
to=<gruppensprecher at localhost>, relay=local, delay=5.3,
delays=4.9/0.05/0/0.36, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post gruppensprecher)
Oct 22 10:40:10 wakis02 postfix/local[4902]: BF9AD1C94:
to=<ak-leiter at localhost>, relay=local, delay=5.3,
delays=4.9/0.02/0/0.39, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post ak-leiter)
Oct 22 10:40:11 wakis02 postfix/qmgr[1304]: BF9AD1C94: removed
Oct 22 10:40:12 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4920]: connect from localhost[::1]
Oct 22 10:40:12 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4920]: 2AFF52697:
client=localhost[::1]
Oct 22 10:40:12 wakis02 postfix/cleanup[4921]: 2AFF52697:
message-id=<008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de>
Oct 22 10:40:21 wakis02 postfix/qmgr[1304]: ADDE72652:
from=<alexandrakick at web.de>, size=312704, nrcpt=5 (queue active)
Oct 22 10:40:21 wakis02 postfix/local[4909]: ADDE72652:
to=<vorstand at localhost>, relay=local, delay=11, delays=11/0.01/0/0.35,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post vorstand)
Oct 22 10:40:21 wakis02 postfix/local[4905]: ADDE72652:
to=<gruppensprecher at localhost>, relay=local, delay=11,
delays=11/0/0/0.35, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post gruppensprecher)
Oct 22 10:40:21 wakis02 postfix/local[4903]: ADDE72652:
to=<ak-leiter at localhost>, relay=local, delay=11, delays=11/0/0/0.35,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post ak-leiter)
Oct 22 10:40:21 wakis02 postfix/local[4902]: ADDE72652:
to=<beisitz at localhost>, relay=local, delay=11, delays=11/0/0/0.36,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post beisitz)
Oct 22 10:40:21 wakis02 postfix/local[4907]: ADDE72652:
to=<kollegium at localhost>, relay=local, delay=11, delays=11/0.01/0/0.36,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post kollegium)
Oct 22 10:40:21 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4898]: 8010E3A: client=localhost[::1]
Oct 22 10:40:21 wakis02 postfix/cleanup[4901]: 8010E3A:
message-id=<008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de>
Oct 22 10:40:21 wakis02 postfix/qmgr[1304]: ADDE72652: removed
Oct 22 10:40:23 wakis02 postfix/qmgr[1304]: 2AFF52697:
from=<beisitz-bounces at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>, size=314124,
nrcpt=1 (queue active)
Oct 22 10:40:23 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4920]: 63AC226AE:
client=localhost[::1]
Oct 22 10:40:23 wakis02 postfix/cleanup[4921]: 63AC226AE:
message-id=<008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de>
Oct 22 10:40:27 wakis02 postfix/smtp[4937]: 2AFF52697:
to=<N.Rausch at gmx.net>, relay=smtp.1und1.de[212.227.15.183]:25, delay=16,
delays=11/0.17/0.17/4.1, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 Requested mail
action okay, completed: id=0MUQrq-1ZyZK12VWs-00R3sy)
Oct 22 10:40:27 wakis02 postfix/qmgr[1304]: 2AFF52697: removed
Oct 22 10:40:32 wakis02 postfix/qmgr[1304]: 8010E3A:
from=<alexandrakick at web.de>, size=312694, nrcpt=5 (queue active)
Oct 22 10:40:32 wakis02 postfix/local[4903]: 8010E3A:
to=<gruppensprecher at localhost>, relay=local, delay=11,
delays=11/0/0/0.32, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post gruppensprecher)
Oct 22 10:40:32 wakis02 postfix/local[4909]: 8010E3A:
to=<vorstand at localhost>, relay=local, delay=11, delays=11/0.01/0/0.32,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post vorstand)
Oct 22 10:40:32 wakis02 postfix/local[4902]: 8010E3A:
to=<ak-leiter at localhost>, relay=local, delay=11, delays=11/0/0/0.33,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post ak-leiter)
Oct 22 10:40:32 wakis02 postfix/local[4907]: 8010E3A:
to=<kollegium at localhost>, relay=local, delay=11, delays=11/0.01/0/0.33,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post kollegium)
Oct 22 10:40:32 wakis02 postfix/local[4905]: 8010E3A:
to=<beisitz at localhost>, relay=local, delay=11, delays=11/0/0/0.34,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post beisitz)
Oct 22 10:40:32 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4898]: 8251C2697:
client=localhost[::1]
Oct 22 10:40:32 wakis02 postfix/cleanup[4901]: 8251C2697:
message-id=<008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de>
Oct 22 10:40:32 wakis02 postfix/qmgr[1304]: 8010E3A: removed
Oct 22 10:40:33 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4920]: disconnect from localhost[::1]
Oct 22 10:40:33 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4920]: connect from localhost[::1]
Oct 22 10:40:34 wakis02 postfix/qmgr[1304]: 63AC226AE:
from=<beisitz-bounces at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>, size=314101,
nrcpt=2 (queue active)
Oct 22 10:40:34 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4920]: 230E52694:
client=localhost[::1]
Oct 22 10:40:34 wakis02 postfix/cleanup[4921]: 230E52694:
message-id=<008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de>
Oct 22 10:40:38 wakis02 postfix/smtp[4937]: 63AC226AE:
to=<email1 at mail.de>, relay=smtp.1und1.de[212.227.15.167]:25, delay=15,
delays=11/0.13/0.18/4.2, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 Requested mail
action okay, completed: id=0LkPdb-1aMsY51RPP-00cMXf)
Oct 22 10:40:38 wakis02 postfix/smtp[4937]: 63AC226AE:
to=<email2 at mail.de>, relay=smtp.1und1.de[212.227.15.167]:25, delay=15,
delays=11/0.13/0.18/4.2, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 Requested mail
action okay, completed: id=0LkPdb-1aMsY51RPP-00cMXf)
Oct 22 10:40:38 wakis02 postfix/qmgr[1304]: 63AC226AE: removed
Oct 22 10:40:43 wakis02 postfix/qmgr[1304]: 8251C2697:
from=<alexandrakick at web.de>, size=312695, nrcpt=5 (queue active)
Oct 22 10:40:43 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4898]: 98DC6269A:
client=localhost[::1]
Oct 22 10:40:43 wakis02 postfix/local[4905]: 8251C2697:
to=<beisitz at localhost>, relay=local, delay=12, delays=11/0/0/0.35,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post beisitz)
Oct 22 10:40:43 wakis02 postfix/local[4902]: 8251C2697:
to=<ak-leiter at localhost>, relay=local, delay=12, delays=11/0/0/0.35,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post ak-leiter)
Oct 22 10:40:43 wakis02 postfix/local[4903]: 8251C2697:
to=<gruppensprecher at localhost>, relay=local, delay=12,
delays=11/0/0/0.35, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post gruppensprecher)
Oct 22 10:40:43 wakis02 postfix/local[4909]: 8251C2697:
to=<kollegium at localhost>, relay=local, delay=12, delays=11/0/0/0.36,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post kollegium)
Oct 22 10:40:43 wakis02 postfix/local[4907]: 8251C2697:
to=<vorstand at localhost>, relay=local, delay=12, delays=11/0/0/0.36,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post vorstand)
Oct 22 10:40:43 wakis02 postfix/cleanup[4901]: 98DC6269A:
message-id=<008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de>
Oct 22 10:40:44 wakis02 postfix/qmgr[1304]: 8251C2697: removed
Oct 22 10:40:45 wakis02 postfix/qmgr[1304]: 230E52694:
from=<ak-leiter-bounces at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>, size=314166,
nrcpt=1 (queue active)
Oct 22 10:40:46 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4920]: E1EE526B3:
client=localhost[::1]
Oct 22 10:40:46 wakis02 postfix/cleanup[4921]: E1EE526B3:
message-id=<008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de>
Oct 22 10:40:50 wakis02 postfix/smtp[4937]: 230E52694:
to=<email3 at mail.de>, relay=smtp.1und1.de[212.227.15.183]:25, delay=17,
delays=12/0.32/0.2/4.1, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 Requested mail
action okay, completed: id=0MUjgO-1a1LbG1CxA-00Y9t2)
Oct 22 10:40:50 wakis02 postfix/qmgr[1304]: 230E52694: removed
Oct 22 10:40:54 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4898]: disconnect from localhost[::1]
Oct 22 10:40:54 wakis02 postfix/qmgr[1304]: 98DC6269A:
from=<alexandrakick at web.de>, size=312696, nrcpt=5 (queue active)
Oct 22 10:40:55 wakis02 postfix/local[4905]: 98DC6269A:
to=<gruppensprecher at localhost>, relay=local, delay=12,
delays=11/0/0/0.38, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post gruppensprecher)
Oct 22 10:40:55 wakis02 postfix/local[4907]: 98DC6269A:
to=<kollegium at localhost>, relay=local, delay=12, delays=11/0/0/0.39,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post kollegium)
Oct 22 10:40:55 wakis02 postfix/local[4903]: 98DC6269A:
to=<vorstand at localhost>, relay=local, delay=12, delays=11/0.01/0/0.39,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post vorstand)
Oct 22 10:40:55 wakis02 postfix/local[4909]: 98DC6269A:
to=<beisitz at localhost>, relay=local, delay=12, delays=11/0/0/0.4,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post beisitz)
Oct 22 10:40:55 wakis02 postfix/local[4902]: 98DC6269A:
to=<ak-leiter at localhost>, relay=local, delay=12, delays=11/0/0/0.4,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post ak-leiter)
Oct 22 10:40:55 wakis02 postfix/qmgr[1304]: 98DC6269A: removed

From ricardo at americasnet.com  Sat Oct 24 13:58:52 2015
From: ricardo at americasnet.com (Ricardo Kleemann)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 10:58:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] trying to understand Relay access denied (in reply
 to RCPT TO command)
Message-ID: <BA322504-5ADA-4292-BE2E-ED09A4D6511A@americasnet.com>

Hi,

I have some lists that have message delivery bounces returned and I can?t quite understand what?s going on.

I?m using Postfix on the mailman server. In sending messages to either gmail or yahoo recipients, it seems to only work when the receiving end relays from a certain server, but errors when relaying through a different one. Not sure how to better explain so I?ll copy the examples here.

The recipient addresses are people in Brazil, and the error cases are when mail is being relayed through there

successful deliveries to yahoo and gmail, the relay shows a yahoo and gmail server respectively:
Oct 23 13:18:07 localhost postfix/smtp[6101]: 0B0B344071: to=<xxxxxxx at yahoo.com>, relay=mta6.am0.yahoodns.net[98.138.112.35]:25, delay=1.4, delays=0.01/0.19/0.15/1, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 ok dirdel)
Oct 23 13:18:30 localhost postfix/smtp[6099]: AC6FC44166: to=< xxxxxxx at yahoo.com>, relay=mta5.am0.yahoodns.net[98.138.112.33]:25, delay=22, delays=0.01/21/0.16/1, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 ok dirdel 2/0)
Oct 24 06:18:54 localhost postfix/smtp[8152]: 61EF744176: to=< xxxxxxx at yahoo.com>, relay=mta5.am0.yahoodns.net[98.136.216.25]:25, conn_use=5, delay=19, delays=0.01/16/0.02/2.9, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 ok dirdel 2/0)

Oct 23 13:18:07 localhost postfix/smtp[6077]: 08E0F44070: to=<xxxxx at gmail.com>, relay=gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[74.125.20.26]:25, delay=1, delays=0.01/0.61/0.05/0.33, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 OK 1445631542 dl5si20130969pbb.108 - gsmtp)
Oct 23 13:19:04 localhost postfix/smtp[6052]: 27EFF4448E: to=<xxxxx at gmail.com>, relay=gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[74.125.20.26]:25, conn_use=57, delay=51, delays=0.01/50/0.03/0.39, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 OK 1445631599 is2si31916407pbc.241 - gsmtp)
Oct 23 13:26:59 localhost postfix/smtp[8446]: 220BF44B92: to=<xxxxx at gmail.com>, relay=gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[74.125.28.26]:25, conn_use=4, delay=249, delays=0.01/248/0.06/0.43, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 OK 1445632074 9si17275085ion.14 - gsmtp)


Bad delivery attempts to same recipients at yahoo and gmail, but this time it?s relaying through a server in Brazil:
Oct 24 06:27:26 localhost postfix/smtp[11544]: B7064449E0: to=< xxxxxxx at yahoo.com>, relay=mx2.ibest.com.br[177.153.23.241]:25, conn_use=17, delay=501, delays=0.03/501/0.2/0.21, dsn=5.7.1, status=bounced (host mx2.ibest.com.br[177.153.23.241] said: 554 5.7.1 < xxxxxxx at yahoo.com>: Relay access denied (in reply to RCPT TO command))

Oct 23 13:26:45 localhost postfix/smtp[8446]: 2039444A28: to=<xxxxx at gmail.com>, relay=mx2.ibest.com.br[177.153.23.241]:25, conn_use=9, delay=498, delays=0.01/497/0.25/0.21, dsn=5.7.1, status=bounced (host mx2.ibest.com.br[177.153.23.241] said: 554 5.7.1 <xxxxx at gmail.com>: Relay access denied (in reply to RCPT TO command)
Oct 24 06:27:22 localhost postfix/smtp[8165]: 334874492E: to=<xxxxx at gmail.com>, relay=mx2.ibest.com.br[177.153.23.241]:25, conn_use=2, delay=497, delays=0.03/497/0.2/0.22, dsn=5.7.1, status=bounced (host mx2.ibest.com.br[177.153.23.241] said: 554 5.7.1 <xxxxx at gmail.com>: Relay access denied (in reply to RCPT TO command))
Oct 24 06:27:26 localhost postfix/smtp[11417]: AFCF644249: to=<xxxxx at gmail.com>, relay=mx2.ibest.com.br[177.153.23.241]:25, conn_use=3, delay=501, delays=0.03/501/0.21/0.24, dsn=5.7.1, status=bounced (host mx2.ibest.com.br[177.153.23.241] said: 554 5.7.1 <xxxxx at gmail.com>: Relay access denied (in reply to RCPT TO command))


In all failure scenarios, the relaying server (for both yahoo and gmail recipients) was the same. But what exactly is the relay error? Is it complaining that my own server isn?t properly configured for relay, or is it a problem on mx2.ibest.com.br <http://mx2.ibest.com.br/>?

The info for my server and mailman is as follows:
Server: relay1.americasnet.com <http://relay1.americasnet.com/>
The lists address use either relay1.americasnet.com <http://relay1.americasnet.com/> or listas.americasnet.com <http://listas.americasnet.com/>. Both of these have MX and SPF records properly configured to point to relay1.americasnet.com <http://relay1.americasnet.com/>. 

So I don?t understand why would any server be bouncing back with a relay error.

Does anyone have any ideas to help me out?

thanks
Ricardo


From weif at weif.net  Sun Oct 25 21:01:50 2015
From: weif at weif.net (Keith Seyffarth)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 19:01:50 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Confirmation by reply not working
Message-ID: <84lhaq5toh.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>


Hello,

I'm having problems with the confirmation by reply working. When a user
is invited to the list, or when a user subscribes on the web for, or
when a user subscribes by emailing -join@, they are sent the
confirmation email.

If they replay to the email or create a new message and send ONLY the
confirmation code as instructed, nothing happens. However, if they try
again with the same confirmation code, they will get a response back
that the confirmation code is no loger valid. This appears to indicate
that mailman is receiving the email and processing it, but not actually
subscribing them to the list.

This is happening after moving to CentOS 7 using PLESK 12.5...

Any ideas on what could be going on?

From marco at stoecker-family.de  Tue Oct 27 03:35:48 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 08:35:48 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <56280762.4030306@msapiro.net>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
 <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de> <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
 <56272D7A.20603@stoecker-family.de> <5627B5BA.2000702@msapiro.net>
 <5628001C.6020400@stoecker-family.de> <56280762.4030306@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <562F2954.6080606@stoecker-family.de>

On 10/21/2015 11:45 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/21/2015 02:14 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
>>
>> How do I identify whether the message comes from mailman or list1 or list2?
>> Sorry for the questions, I'm not that experienced so far.
> 
> 
> Here are some of the headers of your message as I received it from the
> mailman-users list with my comments interspersed. How you actually see
> these headers depends on your mail client. It may be something like
> "show original" or "view source" or something else depending on the
> client. I have removed some headers which aren't relevant to this
> discussion.
>  

<snipped>

> 
> If you just get the complete headers from all the duplicates of one
> message received by one user and post those, I can help interpret them.
> 

This would be very great!
I attach the header from a recent message I got today. I'm a member of a
list and the sender sent this mail to 5 mailinglists on our server. Each
member of these 5 lists got 5 messages.

Did I understood right, all entry in /var/log/mailman/smtp file are made
by mailman and in this case it could be an indicator that mailman send
the email 5 times to each list?

And here is the corresponding entry in the /var/log/mailman/smtp file:

Oct 22 10:40:33 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 21.833 seconds
Oct 22 10:41:02 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
ak-leiter for 13 recips, completed in 28.426 seconds
Oct 22 10:41:12 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
gruppensprecher for 6 recips, completed in 10.447 seconds
Oct 22 10:41:23 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
kollegium for 16 recips, completed in 11.236 seconds
Oct 22 10:41:29 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
vorstand for 3 recips, completed in 5.095 seconds
Oct 22 10:41:39 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 10.615 seconds
Oct 22 10:41:50 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
kollegium for 16 recips, completed in 10.871 seconds
Oct 22 10:41:55 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
vorstand for 3 recips, completed in 4.794 seconds
Oct 22 10:42:06 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
gruppensprecher for 6 recips, completed in 10.890 seconds
Oct 22 10:42:22 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
ak-leiter for 13 recips, completed in 15.688 seconds
Oct 22 10:42:32 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 10.289 seconds
Oct 22 10:42:43 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
gruppensprecher for 6 recips, completed in 10.736 seconds
Oct 22 10:42:53 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
kollegium for 16 recips, completed in 10.497 seconds
Oct 22 10:43:09 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
ak-leiter for 13 recips, completed in 16.035 seconds
Oct 22 10:43:15 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
vorstand for 3 recips, completed in 5.468 seconds
Oct 22 10:43:25 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
gruppensprecher for 6 recips, completed in 10.680 seconds
Oct 22 10:43:31 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
vorstand for 3 recips, completed in 5.253 seconds
Oct 22 10:43:46 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
ak-leiter for 13 recips, completed in 15.867 seconds
Oct 22 10:43:57 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
kollegium for 16 recips, completed in 10.956 seconds
Oct 22 10:44:09 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 11.101 seconds
Oct 22 10:44:18 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
gruppensprecher for 6 recips, completed in 9.922 seconds
Oct 22 10:44:28 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
beisitz for 3 recips, completed in 9.971 seconds
Oct 22 10:44:39 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
kollegium for 16 recips, completed in 10.315 seconds
Oct 22 10:44:55 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
ak-leiter for 13 recips, completed in 16.343 seconds
Oct 22 10:45:00 2015 (897) <008b01d10ca4$eb5fd0b0$c21f7210$@de> smtp to
vorstand for 3 recips, completed in 4.947 seconds
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From: "Alexandra Kick" <alexandrakick at web.de>
To: "'Alexandra Kick'" <alexandrakick at web.de>,
 <vorstand at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
 <kollegium at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
 <ak-leiter at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
 <gruppensprecher at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
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 <beisitz at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>
References: 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:37:42 +0200
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Subject: [Waldorfkiga Vorstand] Nachtrag zum Teamabend mit Harald Kriegbaum
	am 8.10.2015 um 20:00 Uhr und Konfliktmanagementunterlagen
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From: "Alexandra Kick" <alexandrakick at web.de>
To: "'Alexandra Kick'" <alexandrakick at web.de>,
 <vorstand at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
 <kollegium at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:37:42 +0200
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Subject: [Waldorfkiga Vorstand] Nachtrag zum Teamabend mit Harald Kriegbaum
	am 8.10.2015 um 20:00 Uhr und Konfliktmanagementunterlagen
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From: "Alexandra Kick" <alexandrakick at web.de>
To: "'Alexandra Kick'" <alexandrakick at web.de>,
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Subject: [Waldorfkiga Vorstand] Nachtrag zum Teamabend mit Harald Kriegbaum
	am 8.10.2015 um 20:00 Uhr und Konfliktmanagementunterlagen
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From: "Alexandra Kick" <alexandrakick at web.de>
To: "'Alexandra Kick'" <alexandrakick at web.de>,
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Subject: [Waldorfkiga Vorstand] Nachtrag zum Teamabend mit Harald Kriegbaum
	am 8.10.2015 um 20:00 Uhr und Konfliktmanagementunterlagen
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From: "Alexandra Kick" <alexandrakick at web.de>
To: "'Alexandra Kick'" <alexandrakick at web.de>,
 <vorstand at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
 <kollegium at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
 <ak-leiter at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
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References: 
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From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Oct 27 12:22:49 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 01:22:49 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] trying to understand Relay access denied (in reply
 to RCPT TO command)
In-Reply-To: <BA322504-5ADA-4292-BE2E-ED09A4D6511A@americasnet.com>
References: <BA322504-5ADA-4292-BE2E-ED09A4D6511A@americasnet.com>
Message-ID: <22063.42201.80813.516172@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Ricardo Kleemann writes:

 > successful deliveries to yahoo and gmail, the relay shows a yahoo
 > and gmail server respectively:
 > Oct 23 13:18:07 localhost postfix/smtp[6101]: 0B0B344071:
 > to=<xxxxxxx at yahoo.com>,
 > relay=mta6.am0.yahoodns.net[98.138.112.35]:25, delay=1.4,
 > delays=0.01/0.19/0.15/1, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 ok dirdel)

That's not a relay in the relevant sense.  That host is already
Yahoo.  Everything past that is just internal details to Yahoo.  The
same is true of your gmail example.

 > Bad delivery attempts to same recipients at yahoo and gmail, but
 > this time it?s relaying through a server in Brazil:
 > Oct 24 06:27:26 localhost postfix/smtp[11544]: B7064449E0:
 > to=<xxxxxxx at yahoo.com>, relay=mx2.ibest.com.br[177.153.23.241]:25,
 > conn_use=17, delay=501, delays=0.03/501/0.2/0.21, dsn=5.7.1,
 > status=bounced (host mx2.ibest.com.br[177.153.23.241] said: 554
 > 5.7.1 < xxxxxxx at yahoo.com>: Relay access denied (in reply to RCPT
 > TO command))

Almost certainly it's just telling you you don't have permission to
relay through that host.  Is there a reason you think that you should
have permission, or did you just assume it would work?  Or perhaps you
had past experience but no contract, and they decided that being an
open relay was a bad idea.

 > So I don?t understand why would any server be bouncing back with a
 > relay error.

Actually, the question is why any server not operated by the
recipient's ISP would allow you to relay.  And the answer is simple.
Either they are an external MX authorized by the recipient ISP to
relay any mail to the recipient, or you have an explicit agreement
with them to relay mail from you.

There's a third answer, which is that they let anyone relay.  Such
hosts are called "open relays," they are frequently used by spammers,
and they tend to get blacklisted by the major providers and "black
hole" lists very quickly.  So nobody who has a reputation to protect
allows open relay any more (or they learn very quickly that it's a bad
idea).

Regards,



From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct 27 13:03:43 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 10:03:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] trying to understand Relay access denied (in
 reply to RCPT TO command)
In-Reply-To: <BA322504-5ADA-4292-BE2E-ED09A4D6511A@americasnet.com>
References: <BA322504-5ADA-4292-BE2E-ED09A4D6511A@americasnet.com>
Message-ID: <562FAE6F.7060303@msapiro.net>

On 10/24/2015 10:58 AM, Ricardo Kleemann wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I have some lists that have message delivery bounces returned and I can?t quite understand what?s going on.
> 
> I?m using Postfix on the mailman server. In sending messages to either gmail or yahoo recipients, it seems to only work when the receiving end relays from a certain server, but errors when relaying through a different one. Not sure how to better explain so I?ll copy the examples here.
> 
> The recipient addresses are people in Brazil, and the error cases are when mail is being relayed through there
> 
> successful deliveries to yahoo and gmail, the relay shows a yahoo and gmail server respectively:
> Oct 23 13:18:07 localhost postfix/smtp[6101]: 0B0B344071: to=<xxxxxxx at yahoo.com>, relay=mta6.am0.yahoodns.net[98.138.112.35]:25, delay=1.4, delays=0.01/0.19/0.15/1, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 ok dirdel)
...
> Oct 23 13:18:07 localhost postfix/smtp[6077]: 08E0F44070: to=<xxxxx at gmail.com>, relay=gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[74.125.20.26]:25, delay=1, delays=0.01/0.61/0.05/0.33, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 OK 1445631542 dl5si20130969pbb.108 - gsmtp)
...
> 
> Bad delivery attempts to same recipients at yahoo and gmail, but this time it?s relaying through a server in Brazil:
> Oct 24 06:27:26 localhost postfix/smtp[11544]: B7064449E0: to=< xxxxxxx at yahoo.com>, relay=mx2.ibest.com.br[177.153.23.241]:25, conn_use=17, delay=501, delays=0.03/501/0.2/0.21, dsn=5.7.1, status=bounced (host mx2.ibest.com.br[177.153.23.241] said: 554 5.7.1 < xxxxxxx at yahoo.com>: Relay access denied (in reply to RCPT TO command))
> 
> Oct 23 13:26:45 localhost postfix/smtp[8446]: 2039444A28: to=<xxxxx at gmail.com>, relay=mx2.ibest.com.br[177.153.23.241]:25, conn_use=9, delay=498, delays=0.01/497/0.25/0.21, dsn=5.7.1, status=bounced (host mx2.ibest.com.br[177.153.23.241] said: 554 5.7.1 <xxxxx at gmail.com>: Relay access denied (in reply to RCPT TO command)
...
> 
> In all failure scenarios, the relaying server (for both yahoo and gmail recipients) was the same. But what exactly is the relay error? Is it complaining that my own server isn?t properly configured for relay, or is it a problem on mx2.ibest.com.br <http://mx2.ibest.com.br/>?


The MTA at mx2.ibest.com.br is saying it cannot relay mail from you to
yahoo.com and gmail.com.

Your postfix should always be relaying via one of the MX servers for
yahoo.com or gmail.com. I.e.

> $ dig mx yahoo.com
> ...
> ;; ANSWER SECTION:
> yahoo.com. 1800 IN MX 1 mta6.am0.yahoodns.net.
> yahoo.com. 1800 IN MX 1 mta7.am0.yahoodns.net.
> yahoo.com. 1800 IN MX 1 mta5.am0.yahoodns.net.
> ...
> $ dig mx gmail.com
> ...
> ;; ANSWER SECTION:
> gmail.com. 197 IN MX 10 alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com.
> gmail.com. 197 IN MX 30 alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com.
> gmail.com. 197 IN MX 40 alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com.
> gmail.com. 197 IN MX 20 alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com.
> gmail.com. 197 IN MX 5 gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com.


Possibly your Postfix configuration has some sender dependent transport
mapping that specifies mx2.ibest.com.br as the relay for some mail or
maybe your DNS is being corrupted somehow.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct 27 13:11:02 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 10:11:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Confirmation by reply not working
In-Reply-To: <84lhaq5toh.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
References: <84lhaq5toh.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
Message-ID: <562FB026.9020003@msapiro.net>

On 10/25/2015 06:01 PM, Keith Seyffarth wrote:
> 
> If they replay to the email or create a new message and send ONLY the
> confirmation code as instructed, nothing happens. However, if they try
> again with the same confirmation code, they will get a response back
> that the confirmation code is no loger valid. This appears to indicate
> that mailman is receiving the email and processing it, but not actually
> subscribing them to the list.


What is the subscribe_policy for the list (Privacy options... ->
Subscription rules)?  If 'Confirm and approve', are the subscriptions
waiting approval by a moderator?

What's in Mailman's vette and subscribe logs?

Does web confirmation work?

Anything in Mailman's error log?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From weif at weif.net  Tue Oct 27 19:28:09 2015
From: weif at weif.net (Keith Seyffarth)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 17:28:09 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Confirmation by reply not working
In-Reply-To: <562FB026.9020003@msapiro.net> (message from Mark Sapiro on Tue,
 27 Oct 2015 10:11:02 -0700)
Message-ID: <84pozzoprq.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>


>> If they replay to the email or create a new message and send ONLY the
>> confirmation code as instructed, nothing happens. However, if they try
>> again with the same confirmation code, they will get a response back
>> that the confirmation code is no loger valid. This appears to indicate
>> that mailman is receiving the email and processing it, but not actually
>> subscribing them to the list.
>
>
> What is the subscribe_policy for the list (Privacy options... ->
> Subscription rules)?  If 'Confirm and approve', are the subscriptions
> waiting approval by a moderator?

It's just confirm. I don't see any way to approve a subscription, but
that may be because qpproval is nto required.

> What's in Mailman's vette and subscribe logs?

Both are empty for the last three days.

> Does web confirmation work?

Yes.

> Anything in Mailman's error log?

Oct 27 17:22:16 2015 (901) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 9] Bad file descriptor
Oct 27 17:22:16 2015 (901) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in _oneloop
    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/CommandRunner.py", line 263, in _dispose
    ret = res.process()
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/CommandRunner.py", line 118, in process
    ret = self.do_command(cmd, args)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/CommandRunner.py", line 146, in do_command
    return self.do_command(cmd, args)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/CommandRunner.py", line 151, in do_command
    if handler.process(self, args):
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Commands/cmd_confirm.py", line 46, in process
    results = mlist.ProcessConfirmation(cookie, res.msg)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 1257, in ProcessConfirmation
    self.ApprovedAddMember(userdesc, whence=whence)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 1015, in ApprovedAddMember
    kind, formataddr((name, email)), whence)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Syslog.py", line 43, in write
    self.write_ex(kind, msg, args, kws)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Syslog.py", line 52, in write_ex
    logf = self._logfiles[kind] = StampedLogger(kind)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Logging/StampedLogger.py", line 52, in __init__
    Logger.__init__(self, category, nofail, immediate)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", line 50, in __init__
    self.__get_f()
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", line 76, in __get_f
    _logexc(self, e)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Utils.py", line 22, in _logexc
    sys.__stderr__.write('Logging error: %s\n' % logger)
IOError: [Errno 9] Bad file descriptor

Oct 27 17:22:16 2015 (901) SHUNTING: 1445988136.175048+4b651bb8e2ca5a8b65ef1b9f3c4a54e715f0686f



From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct 27 20:26:48 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 17:26:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Confirmation by reply not working
In-Reply-To: <84pozzoprq.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
References: <84pozzoprq.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
Message-ID: <56301648.5050002@msapiro.net>

On 10/27/2015 04:28 PM, Keith Seyffarth wrote:
> 
> 
>> Anything in Mailman's error log?
> 
> Oct 27 17:22:16 2015 (901) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 9] Bad file descriptor
> Oct 27 17:22:16 2015 (901) Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in _oneloop
>     self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
>     keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/CommandRunner.py", line 263, in _dispose
>     ret = res.process()
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/CommandRunner.py", line 118, in process
>     ret = self.do_command(cmd, args)
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/CommandRunner.py", line 146, in do_command
>     return self.do_command(cmd, args)
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/CommandRunner.py", line 151, in do_command
>     if handler.process(self, args):
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Commands/cmd_confirm.py", line 46, in process
>     results = mlist.ProcessConfirmation(cookie, res.msg)
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 1257, in ProcessConfirmation
>     self.ApprovedAddMember(userdesc, whence=whence)
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 1015, in ApprovedAddMember
>     kind, formataddr((name, email)), whence)
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Syslog.py", line 43, in write
>     self.write_ex(kind, msg, args, kws)
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Syslog.py", line 52, in write_ex
>     logf = self._logfiles[kind] = StampedLogger(kind)
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Logging/StampedLogger.py", line 52, in __init__
>     Logger.__init__(self, category, nofail, immediate)
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", line 50, in __init__
>     self.__get_f()
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", line 76, in __get_f
>     _logexc(self, e)
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Utils.py", line 22, in _logexc
>     sys.__stderr__.write('Logging error: %s\n' % logger)
> IOError: [Errno 9] Bad file descriptor
> 
> Oct 27 17:22:16 2015 (901) SHUNTING: 1445988136.175048+4b651bb8e2ca5a8b65ef1b9f3c4a54e715f0686f


That's the problem. I'm not sure what's going on, but the issue is in
writing to Mailman's 'subscribe' log. What does

ls -l /path/to/mailman/logs/

show?

Also, it may or may not be helpful, but if you could send me off list
the
/path/to/mailman/qfiles/1445988136.175048+4b651bb8e2ca5a8b65ef1b9f3c4a54e715f0686f.pck
file or alternatevely, post or send me the output from

/path/to/mailman/bin/dumpdb
/path/to/mailman/qfiles/1445988136.175048+4b651bb8e2ca5a8b65ef1b9f3c4a54e715f0686f.pck

it might help.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From weif at weif.net  Tue Oct 27 21:07:47 2015
From: weif at weif.net (Keith Seyffarth)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 19:07:47 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Confirmation by reply not working
In-Reply-To: <56301648.5050002@msapiro.net> (message from Mark Sapiro on Tue,
 27 Oct 2015 17:26:48 -0700)
Message-ID: <84ziz3n6l8.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>

>
> That's the problem. I'm not sure what's going on, but the issue is in
> writing to Mailman's 'subscribe' log. What does
>
> ls -l /path/to/mailman/logs/
>
> show?

bounce
error
post
qrunner
smtp
smtp-failure
subscribe
vette

Each of which has one or more archived log files. Subscribe is owned by
root, others are owned by mailman.

> Also, it may or may not be helpful, but if you could send me off list
> the
> /path/to/mailman/qfiles/1445988136.175048+4b651bb8e2ca5a8b65ef1b9f3c4a54e715f0686f.pck
> file or alternatevely, post or send me the output from
>
> /path/to/mailman/bin/dumpdb
> /path/to/mailman/qfiles/1445988136.175048+4b651bb8e2ca5a8b65ef1b9f3c4a54e715f0686f.pck
>
> it might help.

Can you help me figure out "/path/to/mailman/qfiles/?" I'm not finding
anything like that in any of the mailman directories I can find...

thanks,
Keith

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Oct 27 21:39:08 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 18:39:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Confirmation by reply not working
In-Reply-To: <84ziz3n6l8.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
References: <84ziz3n6l8.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
Message-ID: <5630273C.9000408@msapiro.net>

On 10/27/2015 06:07 PM, Keith Seyffarth wrote:
>>
>> That's the problem. I'm not sure what's going on, but the issue is in
>> writing to Mailman's 'subscribe' log. What does
>>
>> ls -l /path/to/mailman/logs/
>>
>> show?
> 
> bounce
> error
> post
> qrunner
> smtp
> smtp-failure
> subscribe
> vette


I need 'ls -l'. I want to see the owner, group and mode of the files.


> Each of which has one or more archived log files. Subscribe is owned by
> root, others are owned by mailman.
>

sudo chown mailman:mailman subscribe

may help.


>> Also, it may or may not be helpful, but if you could send me off list
>> the
>> /path/to/mailman/qfiles/1445988136.175048+4b651bb8e2ca5a8b65ef1b9f3c4a54e715f0686f.pck
>> file or alternatevely, post or send me the output from
>>
>> /path/to/mailman/bin/dumpdb
>> /path/to/mailman/qfiles/1445988136.175048+4b651bb8e2ca5a8b65ef1b9f3c4a54e715f0686f.pck
>>
>> it might help.
> 
> Can you help me figure out "/path/to/mailman/qfiles/?" I'm not finding
> anything like that in any of the mailman directories I can find...


Aaahh yes, you did say CentOS. And I gave you the wrong path anyway (I
left out shunt). For RedHat/CentOS it's

/var/spool/mailman/shunt/1445988136.175048+4b651bb8e2ca5a8b65ef1b9f3c4a54e715f0686f.pck


See <http://wiki.list.org/x/8486953> to translate my paths to yours.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From weif at weif.net  Tue Oct 27 22:25:27 2015
From: weif at weif.net (Keith Seyffarth)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 20:25:27 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Confirmation by reply not working
In-Reply-To: <5630273C.9000408@msapiro.net> (message from Mark Sapiro on Tue,
 27 Oct 2015 18:39:08 -0700)
Message-ID: <84lhann2zs.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>


> I need 'ls -l'. I want to see the owner, group and mode of the files.

Sorry about that.

 -rw-rw-r--  1 mailman mailman    12745 Oct 27 20:20 smtp
 -rw-rw-r--  1 root    root           0 Oct 18 02:42 subscribe

[etc]

They all had the same permissions, and except "subscribe" they all had
the same owner


>> Each of which has one or more archived log files. Subscribe is owned by
>> root, others are owned by mailman.
>>
>
> sudo chown mailman:mailman subscribe
>
> may help.

that actually did it. And subscribe from 'mass subscribe' or confirming
by clicking the link also still work.

Thanks!

Keith

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 28 00:49:38 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 21:49:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <562F27F9.1080203@stoecker-family.de>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
 <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de> <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
 <56272D7A.20603@stoecker-family.de> <5627B5BA.2000702@msapiro.net>
 <5628001C.6020400@stoecker-family.de> <56280762.4030306@msapiro.net>
 <19b3638681b7c2f88dea2665378882b2@metaxa.loswebos.de>
 <562EA9FC.7090007@msapiro.net> <562F27F9.1080203@stoecker-family.de>
Message-ID: <563053E2.7090707@msapiro.net>

On 10/27/2015 12:30 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> On 10/26/2015 11:32 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 10/26/2015 02:14 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
>>
>>> I did attach the header from a recent message I got last week. I'm a
>>> member of a
>>> list and the sender sent this mail to 5 mailinglists on our server. Each
>>> member of these 5 lists got 5 messages.
>>>
>>> But the email, which I sent last week, with the attachement never made
>>> it to this list. How can I send the headers instead, cause this email
>>> would be very long?
>>
>>
>> I never saw such a message, even in the moderation queue because of size.


I and the list have now received it. It was sent during the recent
server outage on only reached the server earlier today.

It is helpful. I will copy some of the header info below.


...
>>
>> The most helpful information would be the Postfix log entries from
>> several minutes before Oct 22 10:40:33 2015 up to Oct 22 10:44:28 2015,
>>
> This is the related mail.log entry:
> 
> Oct 22 10:40:05 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4898]: connect from localhost[::1]
> Oct 22 10:40:05 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4898]: BF9AD1C94:
...


This doesn't start early enough. The duplication occurs at 10:37:47. The
duplication occurs because of the way your mail is ultimately delivered
to mailman. Here is an excerpt from header1.txt in your other mail:

> Received: from imap.1und1.de [212.227.15.188]

>  by wakis02.local with IMAP (fetchmail-6.3.26)

>  Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:40:43 +0200 (CEST)

> Received: from [212.227.15.41] ([212.227.15.41]) by mx.kundenserver.de

>  (mxeue002) with ESMTPS (Nemesis) id 0M1foo-1aeGtV2fLW-00tjIT for

>  <mailmanserver at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:37:47

>  +0200

> Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]) by mx.kundenserver.de (mxeue002)

>  with ESMTPS (Nemesis) id 0MVE1V-1a1cd42azt-00YP1m for

>  <ak-leiter at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:37:47 +0200

> Received: from Klamotten ([84.168.195.183]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb003) with

>  ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MTh7A-1Zy14E1g36-00QRsw; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:37:47

>  +0200

> From: "Alexandra Kick" <alexandrakick at web.de>

> To: "'Alexandra Kick'" <alexandrakick at web.de>,

>  <vorstand at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,

>  <kollegium at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,

>  <ak-leiter at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,

>  <gruppensprecher at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,

>  <verwaltung at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,

>  <beisitz at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>


Looking at the Received headers in chronological order (bottom to top),
the message is received by smtp.web.de and relayed (as mout.web.de) to
mx.kundenserver.de for the <ak-leiter at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>
list. It is then relayed as is probably all list mail on that server to
itself for <mailmanserver at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>. It is then
picked up by fetchmail and processed further.

The other messages headers all look the same except they are each
initially for one of the other lists, but they all get forwarded to
<mailmanserver at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>.

Now, I'm sure what happens is one message for
<ak-leiter at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de> gets to
<mailmanserver at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de> and at some point later
the fact that it was originally received just for the
<ak-leiter at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de> list is lost or ignored and
the process looks at the To: header of the mail, sees 5 lists and
forwards the mail to all 5 lists.

The same thing happens with each of the other 4 messages resulting in 5
messages to each of the 5 lists.

The answer is your process for delivering mail to Mailman is flawed
because it takes a message received for one list only and delivers it to
every list mentioned in To: (and maybe Cc:).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From marco at stoecker-family.de  Wed Oct 28 03:57:49 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 08:57:49 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <563053E2.7090707@msapiro.net>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
 <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de> <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
 <56272D7A.20603@stoecker-family.de> <5627B5BA.2000702@msapiro.net>
 <5628001C.6020400@stoecker-family.de> <56280762.4030306@msapiro.net>
 <19b3638681b7c2f88dea2665378882b2@metaxa.loswebos.de>
 <562EA9FC.7090007@msapiro.net> <562F27F9.1080203@stoecker-family.de>
 <563053E2.7090707@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <f7286682c6ce26a5a14d412b8da0ef1f@metaxa.loswebos.de>



On 10/28/2015 05:49 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/27/2015 12:30 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
>> On 10/26/2015 11:32 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>> On 10/26/2015 02:14 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I did attach the header from a recent message I got last week. I'm a
>>>> member of a
>>>> list and the sender sent this mail to 5 mailinglists on our server. 
>>>> Each
>>>> member of these 5 lists got 5 messages.
>>>> 
>>>> But the email, which I sent last week, with the attachement never 
>>>> made
>>>> it to this list. How can I send the headers instead, cause this 
>>>> email
>>>> would be very long?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I never saw such a message, even in the moderation queue because of 
>>> size.
> 
> 
> I and the list have now received it. It was sent during the recent
> server outage on only reached the server earlier today.
> 
> It is helpful. I will copy some of the header info below.
> 
> 
> ...
>>> 
>>> The most helpful information would be the Postfix log entries from
>>> several minutes before Oct 22 10:40:33 2015 up to Oct 22 10:44:28 
>>> 2015,
>>> 
>> This is the related mail.log entry:
>> 
>> Oct 22 10:40:05 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4898]: connect from 
>> localhost[::1]
>> Oct 22 10:40:05 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4898]: BF9AD1C94:
> ...
> 
> 
> This doesn't start early enough. The duplication occurs at 10:37:47. 
> The
> duplication occurs because of the way your mail is ultimately delivered
> to mailman. Here is an excerpt from header1.txt in your other mail:

The entry before this in /var/log/mail.log has a time stamp of 09:35:59 
which is far before the duplicated message was sent.

> 
>> Received: from imap.1und1.de [212.227.15.188]
> 
>>  by wakis02.local with IMAP (fetchmail-6.3.26)
> 
>>  Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:40:43 +0200 (CEST)
> 
>> Received: from [212.227.15.41] ([212.227.15.41]) by mx.kundenserver.de
> 
>>  (mxeue002) with ESMTPS (Nemesis) id 0M1foo-1aeGtV2fLW-00tjIT for
> 
>>  <mailmanserver at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 
>> 10:37:47
> 
>>  +0200
> 
>> Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]) by mx.kundenserver.de 
>> (mxeue002)
> 
>>  with ESMTPS (Nemesis) id 0MVE1V-1a1cd42azt-00YP1m for
> 
>>  <ak-leiter at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 
>> 10:37:47 +0200
> 
>> Received: from Klamotten ([84.168.195.183]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb003) 
>> with
> 
>>  ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MTh7A-1Zy14E1g36-00QRsw; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 
>> 10:37:47
> 
>>  +0200
> 
>> From: "Alexandra Kick" <alexandrakick at web.de>
> 
>> To: "'Alexandra Kick'" <alexandrakick at web.de>,
> 
>>  <vorstand at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
> 
>>  <kollegium at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
> 
>>  <ak-leiter at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
> 
>>  <gruppensprecher at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
> 
>>  <verwaltung at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
> 
>>  <beisitz at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>
> 
> 
> Looking at the Received headers in chronological order (bottom to top),
> the message is received by smtp.web.de and relayed (as mout.web.de) to
> mx.kundenserver.de for the <ak-leiter at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>
> list. It is then relayed as is probably all list mail on that server to
> itself for <mailmanserver at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>. It is then
> picked up by fetchmail and processed further.
> 
> The other messages headers all look the same except they are each
> initially for one of the other lists, but they all get forwarded to
> <mailmanserver at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>.
> 
> Now, I'm sure what happens is one message for
> <ak-leiter at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de> gets to
> <mailmanserver at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de> and at some point later
> the fact that it was originally received just for the
> <ak-leiter at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de> list is lost or ignored and
> the process looks at the To: header of the mail, sees 5 lists and
> forwards the mail to all 5 lists.
> 
> The same thing happens with each of the other 4 messages resulting in 5
> messages to each of the 5 lists.
> 
> The answer is your process for delivering mail to Mailman is flawed
> because it takes a message received for one list only and delivers it 
> to
> every list mentioned in To: (and maybe Cc:).

I also posted this problem to the postfix mailing list and today I got 
an indicator that maybe fetchmail is the root of the problem due to some 
probably missing multi-drop support, which I have to double check now.
But the fetchmail version which is delivered since debian 7 does not 
support time stamp information in the log.

Thx for your support!
Marco

From marco at stoecker-family.de  Wed Oct 28 05:22:50 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 10:22:50 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <f7286682c6ce26a5a14d412b8da0ef1f@metaxa.loswebos.de>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
 <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de> <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
 <56272D7A.20603@stoecker-family.de> <5627B5BA.2000702@msapiro.net>
 <5628001C.6020400@stoecker-family.de> <56280762.4030306@msapiro.net>
 <19b3638681b7c2f88dea2665378882b2@metaxa.loswebos.de>
 <562EA9FC.7090007@msapiro.net> <562F27F9.1080203@stoecker-family.de>
 <563053E2.7090707@msapiro.net>
 <f7286682c6ce26a5a14d412b8da0ef1f@metaxa.loswebos.de>
Message-ID: <563093EA.9000109@stoecker-family.de>

On 10/28/2015 08:57 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> 
> 
> On 10/28/2015 05:49 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 10/27/2015 12:30 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
>>> On 10/26/2015 11:32 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>>> On 10/26/2015 02:14 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I did attach the header from a recent message I got last week. I'm a
>>>>> member of a
>>>>> list and the sender sent this mail to 5 mailinglists on our server.
>>>>> Each
>>>>> member of these 5 lists got 5 messages.
>>>>>
>>>>> But the email, which I sent last week, with the attachement never made
>>>>> it to this list. How can I send the headers instead, cause this email
>>>>> would be very long?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I never saw such a message, even in the moderation queue because of
>>>> size.
>>
>>
>> I and the list have now received it. It was sent during the recent
>> server outage on only reached the server earlier today.
>>
>> It is helpful. I will copy some of the header info below.
>>
>>
>> ...
>>>>
>>>> The most helpful information would be the Postfix log entries from
>>>> several minutes before Oct 22 10:40:33 2015 up to Oct 22 10:44:28 2015,
>>>>
>>> This is the related mail.log entry:
>>>
>>> Oct 22 10:40:05 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4898]: connect from localhost[::1]
>>> Oct 22 10:40:05 wakis02 postfix/smtpd[4898]: BF9AD1C94:
>> ...
>>
>>
>> This doesn't start early enough. The duplication occurs at 10:37:47. The
>> duplication occurs because of the way your mail is ultimately delivered
>> to mailman. Here is an excerpt from header1.txt in your other mail:
> 
> The entry before this in /var/log/mail.log has a time stamp of 09:35:59
> which is far before the duplicated message was sent.
> 
>>
>>> Received: from imap.1und1.de [212.227.15.188]
>>
>>>  by wakis02.local with IMAP (fetchmail-6.3.26)
>>
>>>  Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:40:43 +0200 (CEST)
>>
>>> Received: from [212.227.15.41] ([212.227.15.41]) by mx.kundenserver.de
>>
>>>  (mxeue002) with ESMTPS (Nemesis) id 0M1foo-1aeGtV2fLW-00tjIT for
>>
>>>  <mailmanserver at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>; Thu, 22 Oct 2015
>>> 10:37:47
>>
>>>  +0200
>>
>>> Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]) by mx.kundenserver.de
>>> (mxeue002)
>>
>>>  with ESMTPS (Nemesis) id 0MVE1V-1a1cd42azt-00YP1m for
>>
>>>  <ak-leiter at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>; Thu, 22 Oct 2015
>>> 10:37:47 +0200
>>
>>> Received: from Klamotten ([84.168.195.183]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb003)
>>> with
>>
>>>  ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MTh7A-1Zy14E1g36-00QRsw; Thu, 22 Oct 2015
>>> 10:37:47
>>
>>>  +0200
>>
>>> From: "Alexandra Kick" <alexandrakick at web.de>
>>
>>> To: "'Alexandra Kick'" <alexandrakick at web.de>,
>>
>>>  <vorstand at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
>>
>>>  <kollegium at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
>>
>>>  <ak-leiter at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
>>
>>>  <gruppensprecher at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
>>
>>>  <verwaltung at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>,
>>
>>>  <beisitz at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>
>>
>>
>> Looking at the Received headers in chronological order (bottom to top),
>> the message is received by smtp.web.de and relayed (as mout.web.de) to
>> mx.kundenserver.de for the <ak-leiter at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>
>> list. It is then relayed as is probably all list mail on that server to
>> itself for <mailmanserver at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>. It is then
>> picked up by fetchmail and processed further.
>>
>> The other messages headers all look the same except they are each
>> initially for one of the other lists, but they all get forwarded to
>> <mailmanserver at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de>.
>>
>> Now, I'm sure what happens is one message for
>> <ak-leiter at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de> gets to
>> <mailmanserver at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de> and at some point later
>> the fact that it was originally received just for the
>> <ak-leiter at waldorfkindergarten-erlangen.de> list is lost or ignored and
>> the process looks at the To: header of the mail, sees 5 lists and
>> forwards the mail to all 5 lists.
>>
>> The same thing happens with each of the other 4 messages resulting in 5
>> messages to each of the 5 lists.
>>
>> The answer is your process for delivering mail to Mailman is flawed
>> because it takes a message received for one list only and delivers it to
>> every list mentioned in To: (and maybe Cc:).
> 
> I also posted this problem to the postfix mailing list and today I got
> an indicator that maybe fetchmail is the root of the problem due to some
> probably missing multi-drop support, which I have to double check now.
> But the fetchmail version which is delivered since debian 7 does not
> support time stamp information in the log.
> 
> Thx for your support!
> Marco

Dear Mark,

I think I do now understand why duplication is happening. But have no
idea how to avoid it. So here is how I think it happened.

I send an email to list1 and list2
now on my ISP there is an email forwarding from list1 at ... and list2 at ...
to the email account mailmansrv at mydomain. So here I have 2 emails in
that account which are both to: list1 and list2. Fetchmail now will get
these 2 messages with to: to both lists and even postfix gets 2 messages
with each adressed to two lists. I think this is the reason why
duplication happens.
But now I have no glue how to configure on the ISP side or
postfix(relayhost) or mailman to avoid such duplicates.
Any assistance possible here in this mailing list?

BR
Marco


From lac at openend.se  Wed Oct 28 05:55:58 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 10:55:58 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <563093EA.9000109@stoecker-family.de>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
 <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de> <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
 <56272D7A.20603@stoecker-family.de> <5627B5BA.2000702@msapiro.net>
 <5628001C.6020400@stoecker-family.de> <56280762.4030306@msapiro.net>
 <19b3638681b7c2f88dea2665378882b2@metaxa.loswebos.de>
 <562EA9FC.7090007@msapiro.net> <562F27F9.1080203@stoecker-family.de>
 <563053E2.7090707@msapiro.net>
 <f7286682c6ce26a5a14d412b8da0ef1f@metaxa.loswebos.de>
 <563093EA.9000109@stoecker-family.de>
Message-ID: <201510280955.t9S9twtD000641@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Wed, 28 Oct 2015 10:22:50 +0100, Marco Stoecker writes:
>But now I have no glue how to configure on the ISP side or
>postfix(relayhost) or mailman to avoid such duplicates.
>Any assistance possible here in this mailing list?
>
>BR
>Marco

There is a fetchmail-users mailing list here:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fetchmail-users
if you need to ask about how to configure fetchmail.  I am not sure
that is your problem, though.

Laura


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 28 11:07:02 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 08:07:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <f7286682c6ce26a5a14d412b8da0ef1f@metaxa.loswebos.de>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
 <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de> <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
 <56272D7A.20603@stoecker-family.de> <5627B5BA.2000702@msapiro.net>
 <5628001C.6020400@stoecker-family.de> <56280762.4030306@msapiro.net>
 <19b3638681b7c2f88dea2665378882b2@metaxa.loswebos.de>
 <562EA9FC.7090007@msapiro.net> <562F27F9.1080203@stoecker-family.de>
 <563053E2.7090707@msapiro.net>
 <f7286682c6ce26a5a14d412b8da0ef1f@metaxa.loswebos.de>
Message-ID: <5630E496.2020203@msapiro.net>

On 10/28/2015 12:57 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> 
> 
> On 10/28/2015 05:49 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>> This doesn't start early enough. The duplication occurs at 10:37:47. The
>> duplication occurs because of the way your mail is ultimately delivered
>> to mailman. Here is an excerpt from header1.txt in your other mail:
> 
> The entry before this in /var/log/mail.log has a time stamp of 09:35:59
> which is far before the duplicated message was sent.


Yes, they are on another machine.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 28 11:22:02 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 08:22:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <563093EA.9000109@stoecker-family.de>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
 <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de> <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
 <56272D7A.20603@stoecker-family.de> <5627B5BA.2000702@msapiro.net>
 <5628001C.6020400@stoecker-family.de> <56280762.4030306@msapiro.net>
 <19b3638681b7c2f88dea2665378882b2@metaxa.loswebos.de>
 <562EA9FC.7090007@msapiro.net> <562F27F9.1080203@stoecker-family.de>
 <563053E2.7090707@msapiro.net>
 <f7286682c6ce26a5a14d412b8da0ef1f@metaxa.loswebos.de>
 <563093EA.9000109@stoecker-family.de>
Message-ID: <5630E81A.4000408@msapiro.net>

On 10/28/2015 02:22 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> 
> I think I do now understand why duplication is happening. But have no
> idea how to avoid it. So here is how I think it happened.
> 
> I send an email to list1 and list2
> now on my ISP there is an email forwarding from list1 at ... and list2 at ...
> to the email account mailmansrv at mydomain. So here I have 2 emails in
> that account which are both to: list1 and list2. Fetchmail now will get
> these 2 messages with to: to both lists and even postfix gets 2 messages
> with each adressed to two lists. I think this is the reason why
> duplication happens.
> But now I have no glue how to configure on the ISP side or
> postfix(relayhost) or mailman to avoid such duplicates.
> Any assistance possible here in this mailing list?


Yes. That is what's happening

To fix this, if it is possible to eliminate fetchmail and have the ISP
email forwarding go directly to your machine, you can then configure
Postfix on your machine to deliver to Mailman with aliases in the normal
way and the problem is solved.

If it is not possible to to eliminate fetchmail because, e.g., it is not
possible to mail directly to your machine from the ISP, then perhaps you
can eliminate the forwarding from list1 at ... and list2 at ... to the email
account mailmansrv at mydomain and have fetchmail pick up the mail
individually per list and deliver only to that list.

Your basic problem is that mailman is designed to run on the server that
receives the list mail directly. Because of whatever restrictions exist
that prevent that, you (or someone) have come up with this fetchmail
kludge and it doesn't work because of the duplication.

Others have made this work by having separate mailboxes on the host for
each list, list-owner, list-subscribe, etc. address and using fetchmail
to deliver mailbox by mailbox to the appropriate place on the Mailman
machine.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From julia.lawall at lip6.fr  Wed Oct 28 06:06:53 2015
From: julia.lawall at lip6.fr (Julia Lawall)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 11:06:53 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] undo auto-discard
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1510281106390.2456@hadrien>

I accidentally set someone to auto-discard.  How do I undo that?

julia

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 28 11:30:21 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 08:30:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] undo auto-discard
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1510281106390.2456@hadrien>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1510281106390.2456@hadrien>
Message-ID: <5630EA0D.606@msapiro.net>

On 10/28/2015 03:06 AM, Julia Lawall wrote:
> I accidentally set someone to auto-discard.  How do I undo that?

If you mean what I think, go to Privacy options... -> Sender filters in
the list admin web UI and remove the address from discard_these_nonmembers.

If that isn't the issue, please explain in more detail what you did so I
can understand what the problem is.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From marco at stoecker-family.de  Wed Oct 28 20:45:49 2015
From: marco at stoecker-family.de (Marco Stoecker)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 01:45:49 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <5630E81A.4000408@msapiro.net>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
 <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de> <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
 <56272D7A.20603@stoecker-family.de> <5627B5BA.2000702@msapiro.net>
 <5628001C.6020400@stoecker-family.de> <56280762.4030306@msapiro.net>
 <19b3638681b7c2f88dea2665378882b2@metaxa.loswebos.de>
 <562EA9FC.7090007@msapiro.net> <562F27F9.1080203@stoecker-family.de>
 <563053E2.7090707@msapiro.net>
 <f7286682c6ce26a5a14d412b8da0ef1f@metaxa.loswebos.de>
 <563093EA.9000109@stoecker-family.de> <5630E81A.4000408@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56316C3D.2080702@stoecker-family.de>

On 10/28/2015 04:22 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/28/2015 02:22 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
>>
>> I think I do now understand why duplication is happening. But have no
>> idea how to avoid it. So here is how I think it happened.
>>
>> I send an email to list1 and list2
>> now on my ISP there is an email forwarding from list1 at ... and list2 at ...
>> to the email account mailmansrv at mydomain. So here I have 2 emails in
>> that account which are both to: list1 and list2. Fetchmail now will get
>> these 2 messages with to: to both lists and even postfix gets 2 messages
>> with each adressed to two lists. I think this is the reason why
>> duplication happens.
>> But now I have no glue how to configure on the ISP side or
>> postfix(relayhost) or mailman to avoid such duplicates.
>> Any assistance possible here in this mailing list?
> 
> 
> Yes. That is what's happening
> 
> To fix this, if it is possible to eliminate fetchmail and have the ISP
> email forwarding go directly to your machine, you can then configure
> Postfix on your machine to deliver to Mailman with aliases in the normal
> way and the problem is solved.

my machine has dynamic/changing ip adresses, as it is connected to the
internet via dial-in connection.

> 
> If it is not possible to to eliminate fetchmail because, e.g., it is not
> possible to mail directly to your machine from the ISP, then perhaps you
> can eliminate the forwarding from list1 at ... and list2 at ... to the email
> account mailmansrv at mydomain and have fetchmail pick up the mail
> individually per list and deliver only to that list.

I have 24 lists and only 20 email accounts to configure separately.

> 
> Your basic problem is that mailman is designed to run on the server that
> receives the list mail directly. Because of whatever restrictions exist
> that prevent that, you (or someone) have come up with this fetchmail
> kludge and it doesn't work because of the duplication.

I'm also not happy with this, but the kindergarden for which the
solution is, can afford only this.

> 
> Others have made this work by having separate mailboxes on the host for
> each list, list-owner, list-subscribe, etc. address and using fetchmail
> to deliver mailbox by mailbox to the appropriate place on the Mailman
> machine.
> 

problem solved :-D
I got the indication of envelope 1 Received to skip the first Received
line + 'aka mx.kundenserver.de' in the fetchmailrc was the solution to
get the envelope information of to what list the email was intended to.
So I can keep fetchmail, cause there is no other solution so far.

Thx for your support!
Marco

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 28 20:58:15 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 17:58:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicates
In-Reply-To: <56316C3D.2080702@stoecker-family.de>
References: <5509F231.4010102@stoecker-family.de>
 <550AF7BE.4010208@msapiro.net> <550B15EC.20603@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B2460.8020100@msapiro.net> <550B4C0D.2000302@stoecker-family.de>
 <550B53E6.5020209@msapiro.net> <550C2F73.7050800@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C34ED.2070207@msapiro.net> <550C3FF6.6010306@stoecker-family.de>
 <550C46EC.6020900@msapiro.net> <550C4ADC.9050303@stoecker-family.de>
 <5626D222.9070103@stoecker-family.de> <5626DEF9.3090400@msapiro.net>
 <56272D7A.20603@stoecker-family.de> <5627B5BA.2000702@msapiro.net>
 <5628001C.6020400@stoecker-family.de> <56280762.4030306@msapiro.net>
 <19b3638681b7c2f88dea2665378882b2@metaxa.loswebos.de>
 <562EA9FC.7090007@msapiro.net> <562F27F9.1080203@stoecker-family.de>
 <563053E2.7090707@msapiro.net>
 <f7286682c6ce26a5a14d412b8da0ef1f@metaxa.loswebos.de>
 <563093EA.9000109@stoecker-family.de> <5630E81A.4000408@msapiro.net>
 <56316C3D.2080702@stoecker-family.de>
Message-ID: <56316F27.5070604@msapiro.net>

On 10/28/2015 05:45 PM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> 
> problem solved :-D
> I got the indication of envelope 1 Received to skip the first Received
> line + 'aka mx.kundenserver.de' in the fetchmailrc was the solution to
> get the envelope information of to what list the email was intended to.
> So I can keep fetchmail, cause there is no other solution so far.


Yes. There's no inherent problem with using fetchmail per se in an
environment like yours as long as fetchmail can be told to which address
any particular message was originally sent and delivers it to only that
list and not blindly to every list mentioned in To:

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From adhaou at ipbrick.com  Thu Oct 29 09:19:33 2015
From: adhaou at ipbrick.com (Abdallah Dhaou)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 13:19:33 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and qmail problem
Message-ID: <56321CE5.1060702@ipbrick.com>

I have a problem configuring mailman 2.1.18 with qmail on Debian .

Short version : The package is installed, users could subscribe to the 
list, unsubscribe ... everything work fine, but it always fail to send 
an email to all members.

Long version : The package is installed, users could subscribe to the 
list, unsubscribe ... everything work fine. Once I access to the email 
of the list's administartor and try to send an email to all members, it 
always fail. This is what I have in the log

//////////////////////// start copy ////////////////////////////////////
@40000000563118d016611294 status: local 0/10 remote 0/20
@40000000563118fa225c516c new msg 394714
@40000000563118fa225c610c info msg 394714: bytes 1519 from 
<souma at domain41.com> qp 30138 uid 901
@40000000563118fa229d1774 starting delivery 1: msg 394714 to local 
log at ipb-srv41.domain41.com
@40000000563118fa229d1f44 status: local 1/10 remote 0/20
@40000000563118fa229d232c starting delivery 2: msg 394714 to local 
list-listsouma at lists.ipb-srv41.domain41.com
@40000000563118fa229d2714 status: local 2/10 remote 0/20
@40000000563118fa255f583c delivery 2: failure: 
Sorry,_no_mailbox_here_by_that_name._(#5.1.1)/
@40000000563118fa255f67dc status: local 1/10 remote 0/20
@40000000563118fa29c93654 delivery 1: success: 
October_28,_2015,_6:50_pm_-_30142_-_DIR:/tmp/emails/mail1446058224.65219600/_Fim/did_0+0+1/
@40000000563118fa29c949dc status: local 0/10 remote 0/20
@40000000563118fa2b23730c bounce msg 394714 qp 30153
@40000000563118fa2b237ec4 end msg 394714
@40000000563118fa2b2ac9f4 new msg 394975
@40000000563118fa2b2acddc info msg 394975: bytes 2092 from <> qp 30153 
uid 906
@40000000563118fa2b5e64e4 starting delivery 3: msg 394975 to local 
log at ipb-srv41.domain41.com
@40000000563118fa2b5e6cb4 status: local 1/10 remote 0/20
@40000000563118fa2b5e6cb4 starting delivery 4: msg 394975 to local 
souma at domain41.com
@40000000563118fa2b5e709c status: local 2/10 remote 0/20
//////////////////////// End copy ////////////////////////////////////

While I create a list from the command line
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ipb-srv41:/var/qmail# newlist list1
Enter the email of the person running the list: administrator at domain41.com
Initial list1 password:
To finish creating your mailing list, you must edit your /etc/aliases (or
equivalent) file by adding the following lines, and possibly running the
`newaliases' program:

## list1 mailing list
list1:              "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post list1"
list1-admin:        "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman admin list1"
list1-bounces:      "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman bounces list1"
list1-confirm:      "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman confirm list1"
list1-join:         "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman join list1"
list1-leave:        "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman leave list1"
list1-owner:        "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner list1"
list1-request:      "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request list1"
list1-subscribe:    "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe list1"
list1-unsubscribe:  "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe list1"

Hit enter to notify list1 owner...

ipb-srv41:/var/qmail#
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My questions are the following:
1- where those alias are stored ?
2- is there an addional config to do with qmail ?
3- why the user receive email to subscribe/unsubscribe , but the admin 
couldn't sedn email to the list ?

From fsantiago at deviltracks.net  Thu Oct 29 11:32:56 2015
From: fsantiago at deviltracks.net (=?utf-8?q?fsantiago=40deviltracks=2Enet?=)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 11:32:56 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and qmail problem
In-Reply-To: <56321CE5.1060702@ipbrick.com>
References: <56321CE5.1060702@ipbrick.com>
Message-ID: <920F6562-CFB6-42B9-9C63-51615FFBC5E2@deviltracks.net>

See if this helps you:

http://wiki.qmailtoaster.com/index.php/Mailman

But probably a question better asked on a Qmail related mailing list like:

Qmailtoaster-list at qmailtoaster.com


Sincerely,

Fabian Santiago

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 29, 2015, at 9:19 AM, Abdallah Dhaou <adhaou at ipbrick.com> wrote:
> 
> I have a problem configuring mailman 2.1.18 with qmail on Debian .
> 
> Short version : The package is installed, users could subscribe to the list, unsubscribe ... everything work fine, but it always fail to send an email to all members.
> 
> Long version : The package is installed, users could subscribe to the list, unsubscribe ... everything work fine. Once I access to the email of the list's administartor and try to send an email to all members, it always fail. This is what I have in the log
> 
> //////////////////////// start copy ////////////////////////////////////
> @40000000563118d016611294 status: local 0/10 remote 0/20
> @40000000563118fa225c516c new msg 394714
> @40000000563118fa225c610c info msg 394714: bytes 1519 from <souma at domain41.com> qp 30138 uid 901
> @40000000563118fa229d1774 starting delivery 1: msg 394714 to local log at ipb-srv41.domain41.com
> @40000000563118fa229d1f44 status: local 1/10 remote 0/20
> @40000000563118fa229d232c starting delivery 2: msg 394714 to local list-listsouma at lists.ipb-srv41.domain41.com
> @40000000563118fa229d2714 status: local 2/10 remote 0/20
> @40000000563118fa255f583c delivery 2: failure: Sorry,_no_mailbox_here_by_that_name._(#5.1.1)/
> @40000000563118fa255f67dc status: local 1/10 remote 0/20
> @40000000563118fa29c93654 delivery 1: success: October_28,_2015,_6:50_pm_-_30142_-_DIR:/tmp/emails/mail1446058224.65219600/_Fim/did_0+0+1/
> @40000000563118fa29c949dc status: local 0/10 remote 0/20
> @40000000563118fa2b23730c bounce msg 394714 qp 30153
> @40000000563118fa2b237ec4 end msg 394714
> @40000000563118fa2b2ac9f4 new msg 394975
> @40000000563118fa2b2acddc info msg 394975: bytes 2092 from <> qp 30153 uid 906
> @40000000563118fa2b5e64e4 starting delivery 3: msg 394975 to local log at ipb-srv41.domain41.com
> @40000000563118fa2b5e6cb4 status: local 1/10 remote 0/20
> @40000000563118fa2b5e6cb4 starting delivery 4: msg 394975 to local souma at domain41.com
> @40000000563118fa2b5e709c status: local 2/10 remote 0/20
> //////////////////////// End copy ////////////////////////////////////
> 
> While I create a list from the command line
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ipb-srv41:/var/qmail# newlist list1
> Enter the email of the person running the list: administrator at domain41.com
> Initial list1 password:
> To finish creating your mailing list, you must edit your /etc/aliases (or
> equivalent) file by adding the following lines, and possibly running the
> `newaliases' program:
> 
> ## list1 mailing list
> list1:              "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post list1"
> list1-admin:        "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman admin list1"
> list1-bounces:      "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman bounces list1"
> list1-confirm:      "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman confirm list1"
> list1-join:         "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman join list1"
> list1-leave:        "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman leave list1"
> list1-owner:        "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner list1"
> list1-request:      "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request list1"
> list1-subscribe:    "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe list1"
> list1-unsubscribe:  "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe list1"
> 
> Hit enter to notify list1 owner...
> 
> ipb-srv41:/var/qmail#
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> My questions are the following:
> 1- where those alias are stored ?
> 2- is there an addional config to do with qmail ?
> 3- why the user receive email to subscribe/unsubscribe , but the admin couldn't sedn email to the list ?
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fsantiago%40deviltracks.net


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct 29 11:52:18 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 08:52:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and qmail problem
In-Reply-To: <56321CE5.1060702@ipbrick.com>
References: <56321CE5.1060702@ipbrick.com>
Message-ID: <563240B2.6040609@msapiro.net>

On 10/29/2015 06:19 AM, Abdallah Dhaou wrote:
> I have a problem configuring mailman 2.1.18 with qmail on Debian .
...
> To finish creating your mailing list, you must edit your /etc/aliases (or
> equivalent) file by adding the following lines, and possibly running the
> `newaliases' program:
> 
> ## list1 mailing list
> list1:              "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post list1"
> list1-admin:        "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman admin list1"
> list1-bounces:      "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman bounces list1"
> list1-confirm:      "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman confirm list1"
> list1-join:         "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman join list1"
> list1-leave:        "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman leave list1"
> list1-owner:        "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner list1"
> list1-request:      "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request list1"
> list1-subscribe:    "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe list1"
> list1-unsubscribe:  "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe list1"
> 
...
> My questions are the following:
> 1- where those alias are stored ?
> 2- is there an addional config to do with qmail ?
> 3- why the user receive email to subscribe/unsubscribe , but the admin
> couldn't sedn email to the list ?


Those aliases are generic for sendmail and postfix. Qmail is different.
See <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/qmail-issues.html> for some
information about mail delivery from Qmail to Mailman.

Also note if you are installing the Debian Mailman package with Qmail as
the MTA, this should somehow be covered in Debian's documentation and if
it isn't that's a Debian bug. See <http://wiki.list.org/x/12812344>.

As to your third question, Mailman has no problem delivering outgoing
mail to Qmail via SMTP to port 25 on localhost, but Qmail doesn't know
how to deliver incoming list mail to Mailman. The info at
<http://www.list.org/mailman-install/qmail-issues.html> should help with
that.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct 29 12:13:22 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 09:13:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and qmail problem
In-Reply-To: <563240B2.6040609@msapiro.net>
References: <56321CE5.1060702@ipbrick.com> <563240B2.6040609@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <563245A2.5080409@msapiro.net>

On 10/29/2015 08:52 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> Those aliases are generic for sendmail and postfix. Qmail is different.
> See <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/qmail-issues.html> for some
> information about mail delivery from Qmail to Mailman.
> 
> Also note if you are installing the Debian Mailman package with Qmail as
> the MTA, this should somehow be covered in Debian's documentation and if
> it isn't that's a Debian bug. See <http://wiki.list.org/x/12812344>.


I am reminded by Fabian Santiago's reply that there is also a
qmail-to-mailman.py script. In a source install, the base script is in
contrib/qmail-to-mailman.py and a 'configured' script is in
build/contrib/qmail-to-mailman.py

I don't know what the situation is in the Debian package, but given
Debian's proclivity towards postfix-to-mailman.py (not distributed by
the GNU Mailman project), they may well have a way to set this up for Qmail.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From weif at weif.net  Thu Oct 29 12:35:21 2015
From: weif at weif.net (Keith Seyffarth)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 10:35:21 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] changing domains on Mailman implementation
Message-ID: <84y4el63au.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>



Is there an efficient way to change the domain name that mailman is
affiliated with?

I have two mailing lists that were created for an organization before
that organization had their own domain. At the time the organization was
sure they did not want their own domain and would not be getting a
domain.

Since then, they have chosen to get a domain and set up a web site.

I would like to move their mailing lists onto their domain. It looks
like the process for this is:
1) get the list of subscribers
2) delete the mailing list from the one domain (losing the archives)
3) create the mailing list on the new domain
4) subscribe the list of subscribers

This process doesn't seem too difficult, but I would prefer to keep the
archives, if possible.

Both domains are on the same server, running CentOS7 and PLESK 12.5, if
that makes a difference.

Thanks,
Keith

From fmouse at fmp.com  Thu Oct 29 12:55:53 2015
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 11:55:53 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and qmail problem
In-Reply-To: <563240B2.6040609@msapiro.net>
References: <56321CE5.1060702@ipbrick.com> <563240B2.6040609@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1446137753.59272.14.camel@pudina.fmp.com>

On Thu, 2015-10-29 at 08:52 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/29/2015 06:19 AM, Abdallah Dhaou wrote:
> > I have a problem configuring mailman 2.1.18 with qmail on Debian .
> ...
> > To finish creating your mailing list, you must edit your /etc/aliases (or
> > equivalent) file by adding the following lines, and possibly running the
> > `newaliases' program:
> > 
> > ## list1 mailing list
> > list1:              "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post list1"
> > list1-admin:        "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman admin list1"
> > list1-bounces:      "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman bounces list1"
> > list1-confirm:      "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman confirm list1"
> > list1-join:         "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman join list1"
> > list1-leave:        "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman leave list1"
> > list1-owner:        "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner list1"
> > list1-request:      "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request list1"
> > list1-subscribe:    "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe list1"
> > list1-unsubscribe:  "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe list1"
> > 
> ...
> > My questions are the following:
> > 1- where those alias are stored ?
> > 2- is there an addional config to do with qmail ?
> > 3- why the user receive email to subscribe/unsubscribe , but the admin
> > couldn't sedn email to the list ?

There's an excellent program in Mailman's contrib folder in the source
called qmail-to-mailman.py which eliminates the need for specific
aliases as you have listed. It's been years since I used qmail but as I
recall, qmail has the ability to process a mail to a list through a
configurable program. I adapted qmail-to-mailman.py to create
courier-to-mailman (also in contrib) for the courier MTA, which is
similar to qmail in some regards, and it works perfectly.


> Those aliases are generic for sendmail and postfix. Qmail is different.
> See <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/qmail-issues.html> for some
> information about mail delivery from Qmail to Mailman.
> 
> Also note if you are installing the Debian Mailman package with Qmail as
> the MTA, this should somehow be covered in Debian's documentation and if
> it isn't that's a Debian bug. See <http://wiki.list.org/x/12812344>.
> 
> As to your third question, Mailman has no problem delivering outgoing
> mail to Qmail via SMTP to port 25 on localhost, but Qmail doesn't know
> how to deliver incoming list mail to Mailman. The info at
> <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/qmail-issues.html> should help with
> that.
> 

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The only unchanging certainty
FMP Computer Services |    is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190          |
http://www.fmp.com    | - Ancient wisdom, all cultures


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct 29 13:02:03 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 10:02:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] changing domains on Mailman implementation
In-Reply-To: <84y4el63au.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
References: <84y4el63au.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>
Message-ID: <5632510B.6090404@msapiro.net>

On 10/29/2015 09:35 AM, Keith Seyffarth wrote:
> 
> Is there an efficient way to change the domain name that mailman is
> affiliated with?
...
> I would like to move their mailing lists onto their domain. It looks
> like the process for this is:
> 1) get the list of subscribers
> 2) delete the mailing list from the one domain (losing the archives)
> 3) create the mailing list on the new domain
> 4) subscribe the list of subscribers
> 
> This process doesn't seem too difficult, but I would prefer to keep the
> archives, if possible.


That's unduly complex and disruptive. Don't do any of that.


> Both domains are on the same server, running CentOS7 and PLESK 12.5, if
> that makes a difference.


Note: the following is for standard Mailman. Plesk may be different.

First make sure you have

add_virtualhost('their.web.domain', 'their.email.domain')

im mm_cfg.py.

Then for each affected list you run Mailman's

bin/withlist -l -r fix_url listname --urlhost=their.web.domain

That takes care of most of it, but there may be issues with delivery of
mail to Mailman. If you use Postfix with Postfix-Mailman integration for
automatic generation of aliases and virtual mappings, you probably also
want to add 'their.email.domain' to the POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS
list in mm_cfg.py. Then running Mailman's

bin/genaliases

is all you need. In other cases, you may need to manually update virtual
mappings. Aliases generally don't need to be changed.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From adhaou at ipbrick.com  Fri Oct 30 11:25:01 2015
From: adhaou at ipbrick.com (Abdallah Dhaou)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 15:25:01 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and qmail problem
In-Reply-To: <563245A2.5080409@msapiro.net>
References: <56321CE5.1060702@ipbrick.com> <563240B2.6040609@msapiro.net>
 <563245A2.5080409@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56338BCD.60202@ipbrick.com>

hello,

So after some changes , I got another error :/

---------------------Start copy 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Group_mismatch_error.__Mailman_expected_the_mail/wrapper_script_to_be_executed_as_group_"daemon",_but/the_system's_mail_server_executed_the_mail_script_as/group_"nofiles".__Try_tweaking_the_mail_server_to_run_the/script_as_group_"daemon",_or_re-run_configure,_/providing_the_command_line_option_`--with-mail-gid=nofiles'./
---------------------End copy 
-----------------------------------------------------------


the script check_perms  don't return any error
---------------------Start copy 
-----------------------------------------------------------
ipb-srv41:/var/qmail# /usr/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms
No problems found
---------------------End copy 
-----------------------------------------------------------

any help will be much appreciated.

On 29-10-2015 16:13, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/29/2015 08:52 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> Those aliases are generic for sendmail and postfix. Qmail is different.
>> See <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/qmail-issues.html> for some
>> information about mail delivery from Qmail to Mailman.
>>
>> Also note if you are installing the Debian Mailman package with Qmail as
>> the MTA, this should somehow be covered in Debian's documentation and if
>> it isn't that's a Debian bug. See <http://wiki.list.org/x/12812344>.
>
> I am reminded by Fabian Santiago's reply that there is also a
> qmail-to-mailman.py script. In a source install, the base script is in
> contrib/qmail-to-mailman.py and a 'configured' script is in
> build/contrib/qmail-to-mailman.py
>
> I don't know what the situation is in the Debian package, but given
> Debian's proclivity towards postfix-to-mailman.py (not distributed by
> the GNU Mailman project), they may well have a way to set this up for Qmail.
>

-- 
Assinatura
Abdallah Dhaou
/IPBrick I&D Dpt/ 	IPBrick S.A. <http://www.ipbrick.com/>SGS 
<http://www.sgs.com/en/Our-Company/Certified-Client-Directories/Certified-Client-Directories.aspx>qualidade 
<http://www.sgs.com/en/Our-Company/Certified-Client-Directories/Certified-Client-Directories.aspx> 

IPBRICK International
Rua Passos Manuel, 66/76
4000-381 Porto
Portugal 	TEL: +351 221 207 100
TLM: +351 916 543 043
FAX: +351 225 189 722
UCoIP: adhaou at ipbrick.com <mailto:adhaou at ipbrick.com>
www.ipbrick.com <http://www.ipbrick.com/>
www.iportaldoc.com <http://www.iportaldoc.com/> 	UCoIP 
<http://adhaou.ipbrick.com> Facebook 
<http://www.facebook.com/pages/IPBrick/263923950988/> Twitter 
<http://twitter.com/IPBrick/> Linked In 
<http://pt.linkedin.com/in/ipbrick/>


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct 30 13:44:33 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:44:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and qmail problem
In-Reply-To: <56338BCD.60202@ipbrick.com>
References: <56321CE5.1060702@ipbrick.com> <563240B2.6040609@msapiro.net>
 <563245A2.5080409@msapiro.net> <56338BCD.60202@ipbrick.com>
Message-ID: <5633AC81.7040400@msapiro.net>

On 10/30/2015 08:25 AM, Abdallah Dhaou wrote:
> hello,
> 
> So after some changes , I got another error :/
> 
> ---------------------Start copy
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Group_mismatch_error.__Mailman_expected_the_mail/wrapper_script_to_be_executed_as_group_"daemon",_but/the_system's_mail_server_executed_the_mail_script_as/group_"nofiles".__Try_tweaking_the_mail_server_to_run_the/script_as_group_"daemon",_or_re-run_configure,_/providing_the_command_line_option_`--with-mail-gid=nofiles'./
> 
> ---------------------End copy


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030645>

If you still have issues, please post how you installed Mailman (source
or Debian package) and if you installed from package, be sure you have
read /usr/share/doc/mailman/README.Debian and everything else in the
package related to qmail.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From avhernandez at uci.cu  Fri Oct 30 16:14:16 2015
From: avhernandez at uci.cu (Amaury Viera =?utf-8?Q?Hern=C3=A1ndez?=)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 16:14:16 -0400 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] restrict subscription,
 unsubscription and send mails in mailman list
In-Reply-To: <209349082.3096240.1446235556691.JavaMail.zimbra@uci.cu>
Message-ID: <296351665.3097696.1446236056480.JavaMail.zimbra@uci.cu>

Hi everyone:
I just arrived to this list and I'm needing your help. I have a mailman list and I need 3 things (I couldn't find this in google and in http://wiki.list.org/DOC/Frequently%20Asked%20Questions):
1- I need that the users couldn't subscribe to the list
2- I need that the subscribed users can't unsubscribe
3- I need that just some users can send mails to the list

Regards and Thanks in advance, Amaury.
Noviembre 13-14: Final Caribe?a 2015 del Concurso de Programaci?n ACM-ICPC
https://icpc.baylor.edu/regionals/finder/cf-2015

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Oct 31 11:50:25 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 08:50:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] restrict subscription,
 unsubscription and send mails in mailman list
In-Reply-To: <296351665.3097696.1446236056480.JavaMail.zimbra@uci.cu>
References: <296351665.3097696.1446236056480.JavaMail.zimbra@uci.cu>
Message-ID: <5634E341.7020505@msapiro.net>

On 10/30/2015 01:14 PM, Amaury Viera Hern?ndez wrote:
> Hi everyone:
> I just arrived to this list and I'm needing your help. I have a mailman list and I need 3 things (I couldn't find this in google and in http://wiki.list.org/DOC/Frequently%20Asked%20Questions):
> 1- I need that the users couldn't subscribe to the list

In the web admin UI for the list set Privacy options... -> Subscription
rules -> subscribe_policy to Require approval and then reject or discard
any subscription requests.


> 2- I need that the subscribed users can't unsubscribe

In the web admin UI for the list set Privacy options... -> Subscription
rules -> unsubscribe_policy to Yes and then reject or discard any
unsubscription requests.


> 3- I need that just some users can send mails to the list

In the web admin UI for the list set Privacy options... -> Sender
filters set default_member_moderation to Yes and
member_moderation_action to Reject or Discard as desired, and if Reject,
maybe set member_moderation_notice.

Then go to Membership Management... -> Membership List and under
Additional Member Tasks set everyone moderated and then uncheck 'mod'
for those allowed to post.

Also, see <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030685>, particularly the sections
"How to restrict the list so only authorized persons can post:" and "How
to post to the announcement list:".

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From lists at damorris.com  Sat Oct 31 21:38:52 2015
From: lists at damorris.com (Adam Morris)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 12:38:52 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list discription in header?
Message-ID: <56356D2C.20403@damorris.com>

Hi all,

I'm by no mean an expert on mailman just using it through my hosting 
provider.
I've created a list and the below shows up in the header, wondering how 
to stop this so it just says the list address?

List-Id: "This is a list for the discussion of accessible technology for 
Blind
     and Vision impaired people." <atug.damorris.com>




-- 


Adam Morris

email:
adam at damorris.com


		


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Oct 31 22:52:36 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 19:52:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list discription in header?
In-Reply-To: <56356D2C.20403@damorris.com>
References: <56356D2C.20403@damorris.com>
Message-ID: <56357E74.3080707@msapiro.net>

On 10/31/2015 06:38 PM, Adam Morris wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm by no mean an expert on mailman just using it through my hosting
> provider.
> I've created a list and the below shows up in the header, wondering how
> to stop this so it just says the list address?
> 
> List-Id: "This is a list for the discussion of accessible technology for
> Blind
>     and Vision impaired people." <atug.damorris.com>


That text comes from the list's 'description' attribute set in the
list's web admin UI General Options page. It is exposed in a few plases
including The List-Id: header, the Description on the listinfo overview
page and the title of the list's listinfo page.

You can set it to anything you want including empty, but it will affect
all those places.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan