From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec  1 11:56:42 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 08:56:42 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List messages showing as attachments
In-Reply-To: <565CCBE0.4030506@iinet.net.au>
References: <565CCBE0.4030506@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <565DD14A.4000809@msapiro.net>

On 11/30/2015 02:21 PM, Lindsay Graham wrote:
> 
> The TSS list is new and, as a member of TSS (The Surname Society), I was
> subscribed automatically to Digest mode, but very soon switched to
> Individual mode.  All email messages that come from the list (both
> Digest and Individual) are blank except for the list footer and the real
> message is an attachment to that blank message.  I always have to open
> that attachment to read the message but to reply, I have to reply to the
> blank message.  It's my impression that very few other TSS list
> subscribers receive their messages in this way, and I've not so far been
> able to get any explanation form the TSS webmaster.


This is discussed in the FAQ article at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/4030707>. That article is directed more at the
list admin than at the list members, but it explains what is happening.

As a list member recipient, your choices are:

1) Use an MUA (mail reader) that does a better job of rendering this
multipart message format.

2) Urge all the other list members to post plain text only.

3) Convince the list admins to apply one of the configuration options
discussed in the FAQ.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec  1 12:07:01 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 09:07:01 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] strange interaction between mailman and google
 docs
In-Reply-To: <CAHww1eX63wrS61xJzWnKO7up-pHDR-+huVMs7yjYZPBswyh77Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHww1eX63wrS61xJzWnKO7up-pHDR-+huVMs7yjYZPBswyh77Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <565DD3B5.5060708@msapiro.net>

On 11/30/2015 02:48 PM, Ottoson Webmaster wrote:
> 
> Within google docs I use the feature "Email as attachment" to send to the
> list.
> The mailman list has about 1000 addresses some of which are gmail addresses
> and some are not (yahoo, hotmail, etc.)
> 
> Well, the email from google docs is *only* received by the gmail addresses
> in the mailing list but *not* by any of the other addresses.


Is the mailman list on a server you have access to? If so, what is in
the MTA logs on that server for one of these messages? What is in
Mailman's bounce log?


> If I send the email with the attachment from google docs to a *single*
> non-google email, then I see no problems.
> If I send the email with the attachment from gmail  (outside of google
> docs) to the entire list I see no problems.
> 
> The problem is only *from google docs to non-google email in mailman list*


It is difficult to even guess what might be happening without more
information. Someone needs to look at logs on the Mailman server to see
what is happening to the message to non-gmail recipients. I'm certain
Mailman is sending it so what is the outgoing MTA doing with it. Is it
being delivered to the MX servers for the non-gmail recipients?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Tue Dec  1 12:16:03 2015
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 17:16:03 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] strange interaction between mailman and google
 docs
In-Reply-To: <565DD3B5.5060708@msapiro.net>
References: <CAHww1eX63wrS61xJzWnKO7up-pHDR-+huVMs7yjYZPBswyh77Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <565DD3B5.5060708@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20151201171603.GH21217@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 09:07:01AM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 11/30/2015 02:48 PM, Ottoson Webmaster wrote:
> > The problem is only *from google docs to non-google email in mailman list*
> 
> It is difficult to even guess what might be happening without more
> information. Someone needs to look at logs on the Mailman server to see
> what is happening to the message to non-gmail recipients. I'm certain
> Mailman is sending it so what is the outgoing MTA doing with it. Is it
> being delivered to the MX servers for the non-gmail recipients?

If your Google (docs) account is one that is a member of one of the
plans that has access to the Google email log search, there might be
some light in there, too
(https://support.google.com/a/answer/2604578?hl=en).

-- 
"a difficulty for every solution" 
    -- Samuel, on the Civil Service

From cmupythia at cmu.edu  Tue Dec  1 11:51:06 2015
From: cmupythia at cmu.edu (Gretchen R Beck)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 16:51:06 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View a user's subscription options
Message-ID: <89d64a4d65e74cb2817f3ed5ca4b9c81@PGH-MSGMLT-02.andrew.ad.cmu.edu>

Is there a command line script that can be used to view an individual user's subscription options for a specific list?

Gretchen Beck
Carnegie Mellon

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec  1 20:23:58 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 17:23:58 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View a user's subscription options
In-Reply-To: <89d64a4d65e74cb2817f3ed5ca4b9c81@PGH-MSGMLT-02.andrew.ad.cmu.edu>
References: <89d64a4d65e74cb2817f3ed5ca4b9c81@PGH-MSGMLT-02.andrew.ad.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <565E482E.2010700@msapiro.net>

On 12/01/2015 08:51 AM, Gretchen R Beck wrote:
> Is there a command line script that can be used to view an individual user's subscription options for a specific list?


I'm not aware of one, but it is fairly simple to do. I'm willing to add
it to the collection at <https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/>, but what do
you want in the way of output. Presumably the input would be something like

get_user_options listname user at example.com

but what kind of output are you looking for? What fields and in what format?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec  2 14:59:31 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 11:59:31 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View a user's subscription options
In-Reply-To: <565E482E.2010700@msapiro.net>
References: <89d64a4d65e74cb2817f3ed5ca4b9c81@PGH-MSGMLT-02.andrew.ad.cmu.edu>
 <565E482E.2010700@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <565F4DA3.1030408@msapiro.net>

On 12/01/2015 05:23 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/01/2015 08:51 AM, Gretchen R Beck wrote:
>> Is there a command line script that can be used to view an individual user's subscription options for a specific list?
> 
> 
> I'm not aware of one, but it is fairly simple to do. I'm willing to add
> it to the collection at <https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/>, but what do
> you want in the way of output. Presumably the input would be something like
> 
> get_user_options listname user at example.com
> 
> but what kind of output are you looking for? What fields and in what format?


Based on a reply from Gretchen, I have implemented a first cut at this.
The script can be found at
<https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/user_options> (mirrored at
<http://fog.ccsf.edu/~msapiro/scripts/user_options>). The script
displays essentially all the user information on the user's options page
including optionally the password.

To use it, download it to Mailman's bin/ directory, make sure it has
execute permission and then run 'bin/user_options -h' for more info.

Comments welcome.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From larry at qhpress.org  Thu Dec  3 09:21:11 2015
From: larry at qhpress.org (Larry Kuenning)
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2015 09:21:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View a user's subscription options
In-Reply-To: <565F4DA3.1030408@msapiro.net>
References: <89d64a4d65e74cb2817f3ed5ca4b9c81@PGH-MSGMLT-02.andrew.ad.cmu.edu>
 <565E482E.2010700@msapiro.net> <565F4DA3.1030408@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56604FD7.5040003@qhpress.org>

On 12/2/2015 2:59 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
 > Based on a reply from Gretchen, I have implemented a first cut at this.
 > The script can be found at
 > <https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/user_options> (mirrored at
 > <http://fog.ccsf.edu/~msapiro/scripts/user_options>). The script
 > displays essentially all the user information on the user's options page
 > including optionally the password.
 >
 > To use it, download it to Mailman's bin/ directory, make sure it has
 > execute permission and then run 'bin/user_options -h' for more info.
 >

I tried this and got:

[root at xxxxxxx mailman]# bin/user_options -h
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "bin/user_options", line 98, in ?
     main()
   File "bin/user_options", line 52, in main
     ns, args = parseargs()
   File "bin/user_options", line 38, in parseargs
     formatter=optparse.IndentedHelpFormatter())
TypeError: __init__() got an unexpected keyword argument 'epilog'

This is under Python 2.4.3.  (Should the file be called user_options or 
user_options.py?  I tried it both ways and got the same result.)

-- 
Larry Kuenning
larry at qhpress.org


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec  3 12:02:41 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 09:02:41 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View a user's subscription options
In-Reply-To: <56604FD7.5040003@qhpress.org>
References: <89d64a4d65e74cb2817f3ed5ca4b9c81@PGH-MSGMLT-02.andrew.ad.cmu.edu>
 <565E482E.2010700@msapiro.net> <565F4DA3.1030408@msapiro.net>
 <56604FD7.5040003@qhpress.org>
Message-ID: <566075B1.1040704@msapiro.net>

On 12/03/2015 06:21 AM, Larry Kuenning wrote:
> 
> I tried this and got:
> 
> [root at xxxxxxx mailman]# bin/user_options -h
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "bin/user_options", line 98, in ?
>     main()
>   File "bin/user_options", line 52, in main
>     ns, args = parseargs()
>   File "bin/user_options", line 38, in parseargs
>     formatter=optparse.IndentedHelpFormatter())
> TypeError: __init__() got an unexpected keyword argument 'epilog'
> 
> This is under Python 2.4.3.  (Should the file be called user_options or
> user_options.py?  I tried it both ways and got the same result.)


It doesn't matter what you name the file or whether it has a .py
extension. This is only significant for withlist scripts.

The problem is your Python version. optparse.OptionParser didn't have an
'epilog' attribute in Python 2.4. That requires Python 2.5.

If you just remove the lines 36 and 37:

        epilog=Utils.wrap("""This script must be put in Mailman's bin/
directory."""),

from the script, it should work with Python 2.4, although the -h/--help
output won't contain that line.

Sorry about that. This dependency doesn't appear to be documented at
<https://docs.python.org/2/library/optparse.html#creating-the-parser>.
I'll add some comment to the script.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec  3 13:36:29 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 10:36:29 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] utf-8 subjects;
 extended "." regexp really necessary?
In-Reply-To: <22101.8854.418388.552807@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <20151124213726.48CD7165D890@ubuntu1204-102.cs.uwaterloo.ca>
 <22101.8854.418388.552807@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <56608BAD.9000306@msapiro.net>

On 11/24/2015 06:53 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Adrian Pepper writes:
>  >  Am I correct in my conclusion that .* won't match newline characters,
>  >  but <space-chars><not-space-chars><linefeed><carriage-return> will ?
>  >  (And also, that that is the character class I created).
> 
> Yes.  Here are the docs for Python regular expressions as used in
> Mailman: https://docs.python.org/2.7/library/re.html.
> 
> In general this problem would be addressed with the DOTALL flag:
> 
>     The special characters are:
> 
>     '.'
>     (Dot.) In the default mode, this matches any character except a
>     newline. If the DOTALL flag has been specified, this matches any
>     character including a newline.
> 
> Note that the definition of "newline" here is exactly "\n".


Note you can turn on DOTALL in the regexp itself. so while

  Farmers[_ ]Weekly.*Ac

doesn't match,

 (?s)Farmers[_ ]Weekly.*Ac

will (see docs referenced above).


>  >  Empirically I see  ?=\n =?utf-8?q?_ after "Weekly" and before "Ac".
>  >  (And it seems the matching is done on the incoming subject, not the
>  >  one formatted for resending, which, with my tag, and the utf-8
>  >  of an incoming tag pushes the expression entirely onto the second
>  >  line where I think the ".*" variant (or even [_ ]) would match.


This is all a bug in not decoding RFC2047 encoded headers before
matching. See <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/891676> fixed in
Mailman 2.1.15.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From arpepper at uwaterloo.ca  Thu Dec  3 16:09:01 2015
From: arpepper at uwaterloo.ca (Adrian Pepper)
Date: Thu,  3 Dec 2015 16:09:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View a user's subscription options
Message-ID: <20151203210901.A0A551694507@ubuntu1204-102.cs.uwaterloo.ca>

On 12/01/2015 17:23:58 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/01/2015 08:51 AM, Gretchen R Beck wrote:
> > Is there a command line script that can be used to view an individual user's subscription options for a specific list?
> 
> 
> I'm not aware of one, but it is fairly simple to do. I'm willing to add
> it to the collection at <https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/>, but what do
> you want in the way of output. Presumably the input would be something like
> 
> get_user_options listname user at example.com
> 
> but what kind of output are you looking for? What fields and in what format?
> 

 I wrote something (really ugly[*], incrementally developed over a period
 of weeks) that produced, based on the main "membership" page(s) that
 produced via web access, e.g.

     apepper at pytone.org smHxanudP "Adrian Pepper"
     apepper at pyttwo.org smHxAnuDP "Adrian Pepper again"
     empty at pytone.org smHxanudP "Empty Recipient List"
     mshapiro at pytone.org smHxanudP "Mark Shapiro"
     onafees at pytthree.org smHXanudP "Oscar Nafees"

 those letter options correspond to reading across on
 https://SERVER/mailman/admin/LISTNAME/members
 sort of like "ls gone a little crazy".

   s/S - subscribe/unsubscribe (not actually implemented, for "safety")
            (though I did once in a test version when it would be useful)
   m/M - moderation off/ON
   h/H - hidden off/ON
   x/X - nomail off/ON (reason lost)
   a/A - ack off/ON
   n/N - not metoo off/ON
   u/U - nodUpes off/ON (ahem!)
   d/D - digest off/ON
   p/P - plaintext off/ON (applies to digest only)

 Needs a cookie file for access.  Vulnerable to formatting changes in
 the web page output, of course.

 I actually have something to take that output as input and "make it so".
 But with at least one bug. (Omitted option letters are turned off, not
 left unchanged).

 But my main goal was to monitor changes, especially "nomail", and
 the email address which was supposed to conform to a standard.

 Though the "make it so" script is actually used for doing remote (web)
 subscriptions, setting desired options and a standard name field.

 And much later I realized that that output includes only some of the
 options available to the user on the user options page.

    https://SERVER/mailman/options/LISTNAME

 I guess you're talking about running the command on the server?  I don't
 know if you want to contemplate something like my "ls gone a little crazy",
 or not.


Adrian.
[*] Lots of analysis done in csh in the top-level csh script


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec  3 16:57:31 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 13:57:31 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View a user's subscription options
In-Reply-To: <20151203210901.A0A551694507@ubuntu1204-102.cs.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <20151203210901.A0A551694507@ubuntu1204-102.cs.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <5660BACB.1000506@msapiro.net>

On 12/03/2015 01:09 PM, Adrian Pepper wrote:
> 
>  I wrote something (really ugly[*], incrementally developed over a period
>  of weeks) that produced, based on the main "membership" page(s) that
>  produced via web access, e.g.
> 
>      apepper at pytone.org smHxanudP "Adrian Pepper"
>      apepper at pyttwo.org smHxAnuDP "Adrian Pepper again"
>      empty at pytone.org smHxanudP "Empty Recipient List"
>      mshapiro at pytone.org smHxanudP "Mark Shapiro"
>      onafees at pytthree.org smHXanudP "Oscar Nafees"
> 
>  those letter options correspond to reading across on
>  https://SERVER/mailman/admin/LISTNAME/members
>  sort of like "ls gone a little crazy".
> 
>    s/S - subscribe/unsubscribe (not actually implemented, for "safety")
>             (though I did once in a test version when it would be useful)
>    m/M - moderation off/ON
>    h/H - hidden off/ON
>    x/X - nomail off/ON (reason lost)
>    a/A - ack off/ON
>    n/N - not metoo off/ON
>    u/U - nodUpes off/ON (ahem!)
>    d/D - digest off/ON
>    p/P - plaintext off/ON (applies to digest only)
> 
>  Needs a cookie file for access.  Vulnerable to formatting changes in
>  the web page output, of course.


You might be interested in looking at
<https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/mailman-subscribers.py> which is
another web admin membership screenscraper which when run with the --csv
option produces output like


> "Full name","email address","mod","hide","nomail","ack","not metoo","nodupes","digest","plain"
> "Mark Sapiro","mark at msapiro.net","off","off","off","off","off","on","off","off"
> "Mark","another at address","off","off","[A]","off","off","on","off","off"
> "Mark","yet at another","off","off","[A]","off","on","on","off","off"


It uses Python's cookielib to deal with cookies and only requires the
hostname, listname and admin password for input.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mediamon2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  4 06:21:01 2015
From: mediamon2003 at yahoo.com (Woody Mon)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 11:21:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List posts sent to AOL list subscribers bounce as
 undeliverable (v. 2.1.20)
References: <1385796684.12373098.1449228062008.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1385796684.12373098.1449228062008.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Hello, 

I'm assisting a small non-profit organization with  their informational news listserv which is running on Mailman version 2.1.20.

The issue is that list posts sent to AOL subscriber addresses are now bouncing as undeliverable with the bounce code: "521 5.2.1 :  AOL will not accept delivery of this message."

This issue just began several days ago and 200+ subscribers with AOL email addresses are now identified as bouncing in Mailman admin.

I understand last year AOL (and Yahoo)  made changes to their email systems which might contribute to this issue. However it didn't seem to impact our list subscribers with AOL email addresses until just now.

The bounce email message for each subscriber appears as:

----
   A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
   recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:

    EmailAccountHere at aol.com
      host mailin-03.mx.aol.com [64.12.91.196]
      SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
      521 5.2.1 :  AOL will not accept delivery of this message. 
----

Unfortunately the list server runs on a host machine maintained by another non-profit, which in turn contacts with a small local hosting provider. And we don't have access to changing any list server configuration parameters, beyond what is available in the list owner admin. 

And unfortunately the hosting provider will not make any changes to the server for specific lists. We are just grateful the free listserv service and that they keep the version of Mailman up-to-date.

And we are unable to setup a white list or feedback loop (FBL) with AOL as we don't have access to the postmaster or abuse email accounts for the list server domain.

We have sent an email to http://postmaster.info.aol.com/SupportRequest.php
to request unblocking out list email address and/or the list server IP (assuming one or the other is actually "blocked", we have no idea at this point), but have yet to receive a response from AOL.

The error codes page at https://postmaster.info.aol.com/error-codes
says this about the bounce error noted above:

   AOL will not accept delivery of this message

   This is a permanent bounce due to:

       * RFC2822 From domain does not match the rDNS of sending server.
       * RFC 2822 FROM address does not have an A record and is not a valid domain.
       * IP has a poor reputation and mail is sent to multiple recipients.
       * There are multiple From address in the mail headers and the IP reputation is poor.


Before I dive into the details above and the info within the document at https://postmaster.info.aol.com/tech-requirements, I'm hoping to hear some potential simple solutions that may be applied to our particular solution. 

I can post the content of the list email a headers, but I wish to avoid posting the info in a public forum,

Thank you for any advice.

From bsfinkel at att.net  Fri Dec  4 08:13:30 2015
From: bsfinkel at att.net (Barry S. Finkel)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 07:13:30 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List posts sent to AOL list subscribers bounce
 as undeliverable (v. 2.1.20)
In-Reply-To: <1385796684.12373098.1449228062008.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1385796684.12373098.1449228062008.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1385796684.12373098.1449228062008.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5661917A.5000006@att.net>

On 12/4/2015 5:21 AM, Woody Mon via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm assisting a small non-profit organization with  their informational news listserv which is running on Mailman version 2.1.20.
>
> The issue is that list posts sent to AOL subscriber addresses are now bouncing as undeliverable with the bounce code: "521 5.2.1 :  AOL will not accept delivery of this message."
>
> This issue just began several days ago and 200+ subscribers with AOL email addresses are now identified as bouncing in Mailman admin.
>
> I understand last year AOL (and Yahoo)  made changes to their email systems which might contribute to this issue. However it didn't seem to impact our list subscribers with AOL email addresses until just now.
>
> The bounce email message for each subscriber appears as:
>
> ----
>     A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
>     recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
>
>      EmailAccountHere at aol.com
>        host mailin-03.mx.aol.com [64.12.91.196]
>        SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
>        521 5.2.1 :  AOL will not accept delivery of this message.
> ----
>
> Unfortunately the list server runs on a host machine maintained by another non-profit, which in turn contacts with a small local hosting provider. And we don't have access to changing any list server configuration parameters, beyond what is available in the list owner admin.
>
> And unfortunately the hosting provider will not make any changes to the server for specific lists. We are just grateful the free listserv service and that they keep the version of Mailman up-to-date.
>
> And we are unable to setup a white list or feedback loop (FBL) with AOL as we don't have access to the postmaster or abuse email accounts for the list server domain.
>
> We have sent an email to http://postmaster.info.aol.com/SupportRequest.php
> to request unblocking out list email address and/or the list server IP (assuming one or the other is actually "blocked", we have no idea at this point), but have yet to receive a response from AOL.
>
> The error codes page at https://postmaster.info.aol.com/error-codes
> says this about the bounce error noted above:
>
>     AOL will not accept delivery of this message
>
>     This is a permanent bounce due to:
>
>         * RFC2822 From domain does not match the rDNS of sending server.
>         * RFC 2822 FROM address does not have an A record and is not a valid domain.
>         * IP has a poor reputation and mail is sent to multiple recipients.
>         * There are multiple From address in the mail headers and the IP reputation is poor.
>
>
> Before I dive into the details above and the info within the document at https://postmaster.info.aol.com/tech-requirements, I'm hoping to hear some potential simple solutions that may be applied to our particular solution.
>
> I can post the content of the list email a headers, but I wish to avoid posting the info in a public forum,
>
> Thank you for any advice.
> ------------------------------------------------------


I believe that the AOL rejection

      521 5.2.1 :  AOL will not accept delivery of this message.

signifies that there is something in the message that AOL thinks
is objectionable.  What the objectionable content might be is
anyone's guess.

P. S.
 > their informational news listserv which is running on Mailman version 
2.1.20.

Listserv (R) is a registered trademark of Lsoft, and that term does
NOT pertain to Mailman.  Both products are mailing list management
software, but only Listserv (R) is listserv.

--Barry Finkel

--Barry Finkel


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Dec  4 13:01:14 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 10:01:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List posts sent to AOL list subscribers bounce
 as undeliverable (v. 2.1.20)
In-Reply-To: <1385796684.12373098.1449228062008.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1385796684.12373098.1449228062008.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1385796684.12373098.1449228062008.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5661D4EA.1060605@msapiro.net>

On 12/04/2015 03:21 AM, Woody Mon via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> The issue is that list posts sent to AOL subscriber addresses are now bouncing as undeliverable with the bounce code: "521 5.2.1 :  AOL will not accept delivery of this message."


This is a rather non-specific AOL error message, but as you note, it is
documented. I've seen mail rejected by AOL for this reason, but the only
circumstance under which I've seen it on my own server is when an AOL
user posts to a list (with DMARC munge from in effect) the copy to that
user is rejected with that reason, but it is accepted for other AOL
members of the same list. I've dealt with this by setting all AOL list
members to 'not metoo'. I've never been able to figure out what in the
message causes this.

I see this reject quite often on mail.python.org, but we've seen no
complaints from the python.org lists about this, so I don't think it's
all AOL users all the time.

In the cases I've seen, the only reasons listed for this at
<https://postmaster.aol.com/error-codes#other> that might apply are
"RFC2822 From domain does not match the rDNS of sending server." and "IP
has a poor reputation and mail is sent to multiple recipients.", but if
one of those is the cause, why in the first case above is only the
poster's copy rejected?


> This issue just began several days ago and 200+ subscribers with AOL email addresses are now identified as bouncing in Mailman admin.
> 
> I understand last year AOL (and Yahoo)  made changes to their email systems which might contribute to this issue. However it didn't seem to impact our list subscribers with AOL email addresses until just now.


The changes have to do with DMARC, and if AOL rejects a message for
DMARC policy reasons it normally responds with one of the documented
DMARC codes.


> Unfortunately the list server runs on a host machine maintained by another non-profit, which in turn contacts with a small local hosting provider. And we don't have access to changing any list server configuration parameters, beyond what is available in the list owner admin. 


And I wish I knew what you could change if you could, but I don't.


> And unfortunately the hosting provider will not make any changes to the server for specific lists. We are just grateful the free listserv service and that they keep the version of Mailman up-to-date.
> 
> And we are unable to setup a white list or feedback loop (FBL) with AOL as we don't have access to the postmaster or abuse email accounts for the list server domain.
> 
> We have sent an email to http://postmaster.info.aol.com/SupportRequest.php
> to request unblocking out list email address and/or the list server IP (assuming one or the other is actually "blocked", we have no idea at this point), but have yet to receive a response from AOL.
> 
> The error codes page at https://postmaster.info.aol.com/error-codes
> says this about the bounce error noted above:
> 
>    AOL will not accept delivery of this message
> 
>    This is a permanent bounce due to:
> 
>        * RFC2822 From domain does not match the rDNS of sending server.
>        * RFC 2822 FROM address does not have an A record and is not a valid domain.
>        * IP has a poor reputation and mail is sent to multiple recipients.
>        * There are multiple From address in the mail headers and the IP reputation is poor.
> 


The first reason above is really bad. It's looks like AOL's own
extension to DMARC that ignores any DMARC policy that might actually be
published by the From: domain. On the other hand, I don't expect AOL to
properly document what they are doing anyway. You could try setting
from_is_list on your list's General Options page to Munge From or Wrap
Message. If that solves the problem, then it is that first reason, but I
suspect it is more likely the third and the answer is to improve your
IP's reputation with AOL, but you may not be able to do that.


> Before I dive into the details above and the info within the document at https://postmaster.info.aol.com/tech-requirements, I'm hoping to hear some potential simple solutions that may be applied to our particular solution. 


I'm not aware of any.


> I can post the content of the list email a headers, but I wish to avoid posting the info in a public forum,


I don't think that will be helpful. You do need to look at them and
determine that the Mailman sending server at least meets the following:

Identifies itself in HELO/EHLO with a host name whose A record matches
its IP address.

Its IP address has a rDNS (PTR) record pointing back to the same host
name/domain.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From johnl at taugh.com  Fri Dec  4 16:40:15 2015
From: johnl at taugh.com (John Levine)
Date: 4 Dec 2015 21:40:15 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List posts sent to AOL list subscribers bounce
 as undeliverable (v. 2.1.20)
In-Reply-To: <1385796684.12373098.1449228062008.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20151204214015.41031.qmail@ary.lan>

>The issue is that list posts sent to AOL subscriber addresses are now bouncing as undeliverable with the bounce code: "521
>5.2.1 :  AOL will not accept delivery of this message."

I see that you have a yahoo.com address.  If there's a yahoo.com
address on the From: line of the list mail, AOL and Yahoo's well
documented abuse of DMARC will cause the failure you're seeing.

If you're running a recent version of Mailman, there are some DMARC
workarounds you can use.  Other than that, I'd find a different
address to mail from, not at Yahoo, not at AOL, and preferably not at
Gmail.

R's,
John

From mediamon2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  4 17:06:20 2015
From: mediamon2003 at yahoo.com (Woody Mon)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 22:06:20 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List posts sent to AOL list subscribers bounce
 as undeliverable (v. 2.1.20)
References: <412483155.12670781.1449266780623.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <412483155.12670781.1449266780623.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Thank you  for everyone's ideas and recommends. 

I've checked and every list subscriber has the 

As Mark suggested trying, I'll change "from_is_list" to "Munge From" to see if that has any effect. And if not will try "Wrap Message".

Note that almost all list subscribers are set to receive Digests, so hoping this doesn't mess with the format of the digests any (the list is text only, no html or attachments)..

As Mark related, I suspect the issue is DNS related, and AOL is just finally cracking down on mail sent from this particular list server.

A free web based DNS checker reports the following for the listserver domain:

1. FAIL - SOA record check. "No nameservers provided an SOA record for the zone". 

2. FAIL - MX records check. "No MX records exist within the zone. This is legal, but if you want to receive E-mail on this domain, you should have MX record(s)." 

3. PTR record for the domain "Error: Invalid IP address"

I'm not privy to the details but I suspect the list server runs within a virtual host environment. 

>From the header of a list digest email I received yesterday

-----
Return-Path: Listname-bounces at lsubdomain.domain1.org
X-RC-FROM: <Listname at lsubdomain.domain1.org>
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:obfuscated-port# helo=hostname.domain2.org)
	by hostname.domain2.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85)
	(envelope-from <Listname at lsubdomain.domain1.org>)
	id obfuscated date & timestamp

X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - hostname.domain2.org
X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - domain3.org
X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - subdomain.domain1.org

From: Listname-request at subdomain.domain1.org
Subject: Listname Digest, Vol ##, Issue ###
To: Listname at subdomain.domain1.org
Reply-To: Listname at subdomain.domain1.org
-------

It appears the listserver domain (domain1) runs on the domain2.org host and which is responsible for sending mail for domain1. Whereas the 'abuse' domain (domain3) is the domain name of the parent organization which hosts domain2, which the domain1 listserver runs upon.

I'm considering sending a direct email to all the list subscribers with AOL addresses, recommending they either contact AOL to request a whitelist solution or to send us an alternative (freemail) email address which we'll change their list subscription to.

Besides the list provider repairing their DNS configuration, is the above a recommended solution? 

If I was a network administrator I likely could phrase all this in better terms. ;-)

From mediamon2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  4 17:20:53 2015
From: mediamon2003 at yahoo.com (Woody Mon)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 22:20:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List posts sent to AOL list subscribers bounce
 as undeliverable (v. 2.1.20)
References: <1789413758.170111.1449267653462.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1789413758.170111.1449267653462.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

I just attempted to change "from_is_list" from "No" to "Munge From"
but observed the following error in Mailman admin

"Error: The form lifetime has expired. (request forgery check)"

Reading VARHELP=general/from_is_list
it appears that changing to "Munge From" or "Wrap Message" would not provide any benefit when sending list digests..

From mediamon2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  4 17:31:03 2015
From: mediamon2003 at yahoo.com (Woody Mon)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 22:31:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List posts sent to AOL list subscribers bounce
 as undeliverable (v. 2.1.20)
References: <901960005.12664469.1449268263197.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <901960005.12664469.1449268263197.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

FYI, I'm just using a Yahoo email account (via web interface) to post to the Mailman-users list. I don't use this account for much anything else.

All posts to the list in question are moderated and almost all are sent from a Mozilla Thunderbird email client.

And almost all subscribers (including AOL subscribers) are set for digest mode.

In the list mail the from line always shows the listname at subdomain.domain1.org (not an individual email address or freemail domain)

How do I find these DMARC workarounds which you speak?

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 12/4/15, John wrote:

 I see that you have a yahoo.com address.? If there's a yahoo.com address on the From: line of the list mail, AOL and Yahoo's well documented abuse of DMARC will cause the failure you're seeing.
 
 If you're running a recent version of Mailman, there are some DMARC workarounds you can use.? Other than that, I'd find a different address to mail from, not at Yahoo, not at AOL, and preferably not at Gmail.
 

From johnl at taugh.com  Fri Dec  4 17:41:02 2015
From: johnl at taugh.com (John Levine)
Date: 4 Dec 2015 22:41:02 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List posts sent to AOL list subscribers bounce
 as undeliverable (v. 2.1.20)
In-Reply-To: <412483155.12670781.1449266780623.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20151204224102.41172.qmail@ary.lan>

>As Mark related, I suspect the issue is DNS related, and AOL is just finally cracking down on mail sent from this particular list server.

If you told us what the domain was, we could provide a lot more help.

Really, we don't bite, if you want help, provide the information that
will let people help you.

R's,
John



From mediamon2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  4 17:35:41 2015
From: mediamon2003 at yahoo.com (Woody Mon)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 22:35:41 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List posts sent to AOL list subscribers bounce
 as undeliverable (v. 2.1.20)
References: <1875943714.12600521.1449268541017.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1875943714.12600521.1449268541017.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Somehow a sentence above was cut off, Should be:

I've checked and every list subscriber has the 'not metoo' and 'dupe' boxes checked. 

From mediamon2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  4 17:45:05 2015
From: mediamon2003 at yahoo.com (Woody Mon)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 22:45:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List posts sent to AOL list subscribers bounce
 as undeliverable (v. 2.1.20)
References: <405348222.12668730.1449269105165.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <405348222.12668730.1449269105165.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

RE: "Error: The form lifetime has expired. (request forgery check)"

Never mind on that. Just let the admin form idle too long. 

So just changed to 'Munge' and unchecked the 'No Mail' box for several AOL subscribers which were bouncing. Will see if this has any impact.

From brian at emwd.com  Fri Dec  4 17:40:31 2015
From: brian at emwd.com (Brian Carpenter)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 17:40:31 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List posts sent to AOL list subscribers bounce
 as undeliverable (v. 2.1.20)
In-Reply-To: <901960005.12664469.1449268263197.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <901960005.12664469.1449268263197.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <901960005.12664469.1449268263197.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <27d001d12ee4$c8a3bc50$59eb34f0$@emwd.com>

What version of Mailman are you using? The DMARC settings are found on the General Options and Sender Filters pages.



Brian Carpenter
Owner

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: brian at emwd.com
www.emwd.com

 




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
> bounces+brian=emwd.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Woody Mon via
> Mailman-Users
> Sent: Friday, December 04, 2015 5:31 PM
> To: mailman-users at python.org
> Cc: mediamon2003 at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] List posts sent to AOL list subscribers bounce as
> undeliverable (v. 2.1.20)
> 
> FYI, I'm just using a Yahoo email account (via web interface) to post to the
> Mailman-users list. I don't use this account for much anything else.
> 
> All posts to the list in question are moderated and almost all are sent from a
> Mozilla Thunderbird email client.
> 
> And almost all subscribers (including AOL subscribers) are set for digest
> mode.
> 
> In the list mail the from line always shows the
> listname at subdomain.domain1.org (not an individual email address or
> freemail domain)
> 
> How do I find these DMARC workarounds which you speak?
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 12/4/15, John wrote:
> 
>  I see that you have a yahoo.com address.  If there's a yahoo.com address on
> the From: line of the list mail, AOL and Yahoo's well documented abuse of
> DMARC will cause the failure you're seeing.
> 
>  If you're running a recent version of Mailman, there are some DMARC
> workarounds you can use.  Other than that, I'd find a different address to
> mail from, not at Yahoo, not at AOL, and preferably not at Gmail.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
> users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
> users/brian%40emwd.com


From jaybird at bluegrasspals.com  Fri Dec  4 17:19:55 2015
From: jaybird at bluegrasspals.com (Jayson Smith)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 17:19:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List posts sent to AOL list subscribers bounce
 as undeliverable (v. 2.1.20)
In-Reply-To: <412483155.12670781.1449266780623.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <412483155.12670781.1449266780623.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <412483155.12670781.1449266780623.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5662118B.8070406@bluegrasspals.com>

Hi,

I'd say the domain does need to be fixed first. I recently encountered a 
mail server (not AOL) which refused to accept mail from my domain 
because I didn't have an MX record.

As far as I can tell, it is not the individual AOL users who need to 
request whitelisting, but rather, the server sending mail on behalf of 
the list. Remember, all the AOL users are doing is possibly sending some 
messages if they participate on the list, and they're also receiving 
list traffic. Since the issue is with AOL users receiving mail, not 
sending mail, it's the mail server that needs to be whitelisted, but 
before doing that I'd make sure all the DNS stuff is in order.

Jayson

On 12/4/2015 5:06 PM, Woody Mon via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Thank you  for everyone's ideas and recommends.
>
> I've checked and every list subscriber has the
>
> As Mark suggested trying, I'll change "from_is_list" to "Munge From" to see if that has any effect. And if not will try "Wrap Message".
>
> Note that almost all list subscribers are set to receive Digests, so hoping this doesn't mess with the format of the digests any (the list is text only, no html or attachments)..
>
> As Mark related, I suspect the issue is DNS related, and AOL is just finally cracking down on mail sent from this particular list server.
>
> A free web based DNS checker reports the following for the listserver domain:
>
> 1. FAIL - SOA record check. "No nameservers provided an SOA record for the zone".
>
> 2. FAIL - MX records check. "No MX records exist within the zone. This is legal, but if you want to receive E-mail on this domain, you should have MX record(s)."
>
> 3. PTR record for the domain "Error: Invalid IP address"
>
> I'm not privy to the details but I suspect the list server runs within a virtual host environment.
>
> >From the header of a list digest email I received yesterday
>
> -----
> Return-Path: Listname-bounces at lsubdomain.domain1.org
> X-RC-FROM: <Listname at lsubdomain.domain1.org>
> Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:obfuscated-port# helo=hostname.domain2.org)
> 	by hostname.domain2.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85)
> 	(envelope-from <Listname at lsubdomain.domain1.org>)
> 	id obfuscated date & timestamp
>
> X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - hostname.domain2.org
> X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - domain3.org
> X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - subdomain.domain1.org
>
> From: Listname-request at subdomain.domain1.org
> Subject: Listname Digest, Vol ##, Issue ###
> To: Listname at subdomain.domain1.org
> Reply-To: Listname at subdomain.domain1.org
> -------
>
> It appears the listserver domain (domain1) runs on the domain2.org host and which is responsible for sending mail for domain1. Whereas the 'abuse' domain (domain3) is the domain name of the parent organization which hosts domain2, which the domain1 listserver runs upon.
>
> I'm considering sending a direct email to all the list subscribers with AOL addresses, recommending they either contact AOL to request a whitelist solution or to send us an alternative (freemail) email address which we'll change their list subscription to.
>
> Besides the list provider repairing their DNS configuration, is the above a recommended solution?
>
> If I was a network administrator I likely could phrase all this in better terms. ;-)
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jaybird%40bluegrasspals.com
>
>


From mediamon2003 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  4 18:02:12 2015
From: mediamon2003 at yahoo.com (Woody Mon)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 23:02:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List posts sent to AOL list subscribers bounce
 as undeliverable (v. 2.1.20)
References: <647975024.12656544.1449270132111.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <647975024.12656544.1449270132111.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

The Mailman version is in both the subject line and the OP ;-)

I'll investigate those DEMARC settings. Thanks.

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Dec  5 09:34:57 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 23:34:57 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List posts sent to AOL list subscribers bounce
 as undeliverable (v. 2.1.20)
In-Reply-To: <5661D4EA.1060605@msapiro.net>
References: <1385796684.12373098.1449228062008.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1385796684.12373098.1449228062008.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5661D4EA.1060605@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <22114.62993.316252.291144@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > >    This is a permanent bounce due to:
 > > 
 > >        * RFC2822 From domain does not match the rDNS of sending server.

 > The first reason above is really bad. It's looks like AOL's own
 > extension to DMARC that ignores any DMARC policy that might actually be
 > published by the From: domain.

AOL fired most (all?) of their competent people a couple of years ago.
The ones who are left probably don't have time to write super-precise
documentation.  I just read that one as a reject of a message without
a valid DKIM signature that fails the SPF test too, according to the
DMARC policy of the From domain.  True, it could be as bad as you say
-- this is AOL we're talking about -- but I think it's probably just
hard-to-understand docs.

 > On the other hand, I don't expect AOL to properly document what
 > they are doing anyway. You could try setting from_is_list on your
 > list's General Options page to Munge From or Wrap Message.

Note that Wrap Message is the theoretically correct answer, but it
causes pain to at least iPhone users (as of last year).  I can't
imagine it works better than Munge From as a DMARC mitigation
(except for Emacs/Gnus and mutt users ;-).  I wouldn't bother trying
it if I were Woody, and much as it pains me to say it (it was my
proposal, after all) I don't think we should recommend it to anybody
who can't figure out what it does for themselves. :-(

Also, if this is happening to digests (as Woody says in a later post),
that seems weird to me.  Digests should be sent From:
mailman at sending-host.tld, and so should be DMARC-safe, right?  Of
course the sending host may not be DMARC-ly correct, but if so I would
think they would suffer greatly in many ways.

So I tend to think it's the IP reputation that's the main problem, but
what AOL considers in computing reputation I don't know.

Steve


From incoming-pythonlists at rjl.com  Sat Dec  5 14:05:22 2015
From: incoming-pythonlists at rjl.com (Natu)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2015 12:05:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List posts sent to AOL list subscribers bounce
 as undeliverable (v. 2.1.20)
In-Reply-To: <20151204214015.41031.qmail@ary.lan>
References: <20151204214015.41031.qmail@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <56633572.3090803@rjl.com>

On 12/04/2015 02:40 PM, John Levine wrote:
>> The issue is that list posts sent to AOL subscriber addresses are now bouncing as undeliverable with the bounce code: "521
>> 5.2.1 :  AOL will not accept delivery of this message."
> I see that you have a yahoo.com address.  If there's a yahoo.com
> address on the From: line of the list mail, AOL and Yahoo's well
> documented abuse of DMARC will cause the failure you're seeing.
>
> If you're running a recent version of Mailman, there are some DMARC
> workarounds you can use.  Other than that, I'd find a different
> address to mail from, not at Yahoo, not at AOL, and preferably not at
> Gmail.
>
> R's,
> John
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/incoming-pythonlists%40rjl.com

Two things to look at:

Enter the IP address of your server on the AOL IP reputation page.  I
don't know if it will give you anymore information than what you already
have, but it's probably worth a try:
https://postmaster.aol.com/ip-reputation

I don't believe you mention anywhere whether there are any kind of DKIM
signatures in your message or weather there is an SPF record for your
sending domain.  You could subscribe to your list from a gmail account,
and then, on one of the lists postings,  click "show original message"
(in the GMAIL GUI) and look for gmail's results of the DKIM, SPF, and
DMARC tests.  If you use from_is_list, or for digests, it is best to
have a valid DKIM signature.  If you don't use from_is_list, then no
signature is your best bet if mailman is adding footers.  My sense is
you stand the best chance of getting your message through if it has a
valid DKIM signature.  A bad DKIM signature will likely cause problems. 
I know that under some circumstances mailman strips dkim signatures, but
it's best to look at headers to see what is actually happening.

I realize you have no ability to change some of these things, but at
least determining the cause of your problem will help to determine if
you will be able to solve it or not.


Natu


From Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz  Sun Dec  6 21:06:13 2015
From: Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz (Steven Jones)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 02:06:13 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] feature request
Message-ID: <HK2PR04MB1186792B28875DB8E9AF6B76D4090@HK2PR04MB1186.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com>

"Should administrator get notices of subscribes and unsubscribes? "


Would it be possible to split these as our list admins would like to see unsubscribes but not subscribes.
<http://lists.vuw.ac.nz/mailman/admin/all_active_students/?VARHELP=general/admin_notify_mchanges>


<http://lists.vuw.ac.nz/mailman/admin/all_active_students/?VARHELP=general/admin_notify_mchanges>



regards

Steven

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec  7 16:31:37 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 13:31:37 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] feature request
In-Reply-To: <HK2PR04MB1186792B28875DB8E9AF6B76D4090@HK2PR04MB1186.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HK2PR04MB1186792B28875DB8E9AF6B76D4090@HK2PR04MB1186.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <5665FAB9.5040406@msapiro.net>

On 12/06/2015 06:06 PM, Steven Jones wrote:
> "Should administrator get notices of subscribes and unsubscribes? "
> 
> 
> Would it be possible to split these as our list admins would like to see unsubscribes but not subscribes.


There are no plans to implement such a split in official MM 2.1
releases, but if you wanted to implement it, it could be simple
depending on what you wanted to do.

I.e. if you just wanted to modify the code so that admin_notify_mchanges
meant "unsubscribes only", you could just find the two lines

        if admin_notif is None:
            admin_notif = self.admin_notify_mchanges

about 20 lines below the start of the definition of ApprovedAddMember in
Mailman/MailList.py and delete them.

Actually splitting the switches into admin_notify_subscribes and
admin_notify_unsubscribes is more complicated and involves changes to
multiple modules.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From khbkhb at gmail.com  Mon Dec  7 16:47:02 2015
From: khbkhb at gmail.com (Keith Bierman)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 14:47:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] feature request
In-Reply-To: <5665FAB9.5040406@msapiro.net>
References: <HK2PR04MB1186792B28875DB8E9AF6B76D4090@HK2PR04MB1186.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <5665FAB9.5040406@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAHSokPygTvAXpu37C0-a8D6dRrbNCRELSbEBh6QiBXUYoQNyAA@mail.gmail.com>

Probably betrays my ignorance of the OP's needs, but I'd have thought:

1) tracking who joins is more interesting than those leaving
2) client side filtering (including automated discarding) allows the
administrators to save their sanity ...

So I find the described request slightly surprising. Kudos to Mark for not
pushing back on this basis ... but perhaps the OP can provide a little more
context for why this would be a generally GoodThing.

Keith Bierman
khbkhb at gmail.com
kbiermank AIM
303 997 2749

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 12/06/2015 06:06 PM, Steven Jones wrote:
> > "Should administrator get notices of subscribes and unsubscribes? "
> >
> >
> > Would it be possible to split these as our list admins would like to see
> unsubscribes but not subscribes.
>
>
> There are no plans to implement such a split in official MM 2.1
> releases, but if you wanted to implement it, it could be simple
> depending on what you wanted to do.
>
> I.e. if you just wanted to modify the code so that admin_notify_mchanges
> meant "unsubscribes only", you could just find the two lines
>
>         if admin_notif is None:
>             admin_notif = self.admin_notify_mchanges
>
> about 20 lines below the start of the definition of ApprovedAddMember in
> Mailman/MailList.py and delete them.
>
> Actually splitting the switches into admin_notify_subscribes and
> admin_notify_unsubscribes is more complicated and involves changes to
> multiple modules.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/khbkhb%40gmail.com
>

From Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz  Mon Dec  7 16:54:13 2015
From: Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz (Steven Jones)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 21:54:13 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] feature request
In-Reply-To: <CAHSokPygTvAXpu37C0-a8D6dRrbNCRELSbEBh6QiBXUYoQNyAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HK2PR04MB1186792B28875DB8E9AF6B76D4090@HK2PR04MB1186.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <5665FAB9.5040406@msapiro.net>,
 <CAHSokPygTvAXpu37C0-a8D6dRrbNCRELSbEBh6QiBXUYoQNyAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <HK2PR04MB1186FBDB201C1F569A9D8A2FD4090@HK2PR04MB1186.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Hi,

It is an emergency mailing list that only gets used in a major emergency,  19000 subscribers.  We dont really care who subscribes but we dont want "important" ppl un-subscribing and then complaining they didnt get teh emergency email down the track.



regards

Steven 
________________________________________
From: Mailman-Users <mailman-users-bounces+steven.jones=vuw.ac.nz at python.org> on behalf of Keith Bierman <khbkhb at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 8 December 2015 10:47 a.m.
To: Mark Sapiro
Cc: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] feature request

Probably betrays my ignorance of the OP's needs, but I'd have thought:

1) tracking who joins is more interesting than those leaving
2) client side filtering (including automated discarding) allows the
administrators to save their sanity ...

So I find the described request slightly surprising. Kudos to Mark for not
pushing back on this basis ... but perhaps the OP can provide a little more
context for why this would be a generally GoodThing.

Keith Bierman
khbkhb at gmail.com
kbiermank AIM
303 997 2749

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 12/06/2015 06:06 PM, Steven Jones wrote:
> > "Should administrator get notices of subscribes and unsubscribes? "
> >
> >
> > Would it be possible to split these as our list admins would like to see
> unsubscribes but not subscribes.
>
>
> There are no plans to implement such a split in official MM 2.1
> releases, but if you wanted to implement it, it could be simple
> depending on what you wanted to do.
>
> I.e. if you just wanted to modify the code so that admin_notify_mchanges
> meant "unsubscribes only", you could just find the two lines
>
>         if admin_notif is None:
>             admin_notif = self.admin_notify_mchanges
>
> about 20 lines below the start of the definition of ApprovedAddMember in
> Mailman/MailList.py and delete them.
>
> Actually splitting the switches into admin_notify_subscribes and
> admin_notify_unsubscribes is more complicated and involves changes to
> multiple modules.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/khbkhb%40gmail.com
>
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/steven.jones%40vuw.ac.nz

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec  7 17:39:42 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 14:39:42 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] feature request
In-Reply-To: <HK2PR04MB1186FBDB201C1F569A9D8A2FD4090@HK2PR04MB1186.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HK2PR04MB1186792B28875DB8E9AF6B76D4090@HK2PR04MB1186.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <5665FAB9.5040406@msapiro.net>
 <CAHSokPygTvAXpu37C0-a8D6dRrbNCRELSbEBh6QiBXUYoQNyAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <HK2PR04MB1186FBDB201C1F569A9D8A2FD4090@HK2PR04MB1186.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <56660AAE.5000703@msapiro.net>

On 12/07/2015 01:54 PM, Steven Jones wrote:
> 
> It is an emergency mailing list that only gets used in a major emergency,  19000 subscribers.  We dont really care who subscribes but we dont want "important" ppl un-subscribing and then complaining they didnt get teh emergency email down the track.


You could always set Privacy options... -> Subscription rules ->
unsubscribe_policy to Yes. Then admins would have to approve
unsubscribes and could just not approve those of "important" people.

Of course, those people can potentially figure out they can't
unsubscribe and set themselves to "no mail" instead.

It's difficult to solve social problems with technology.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Dec  9 12:21:38 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 02:21:38 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] feature request
In-Reply-To: <CAHSokPygTvAXpu37C0-a8D6dRrbNCRELSbEBh6QiBXUYoQNyAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HK2PR04MB1186792B28875DB8E9AF6B76D4090@HK2PR04MB1186.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <5665FAB9.5040406@msapiro.net>
 <CAHSokPygTvAXpu37C0-a8D6dRrbNCRELSbEBh6QiBXUYoQNyAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22120.25378.14629.373211@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Keith Bierman writes:
 > Probably betrays my ignorance of the OP's needs, but I'd have thought:
 > 
 > 1) tracking who joins is more interesting than those leaving

That depends.  In many organizational settings monitoring certain
channels is part of the job of certain people.  And of course there's
the "emergency list" use case mentioned by Steven.

 > 2) client side filtering (including automated discarding) allows the
 > administrators to save their sanity ...

Some people just don't get it, though, and they're sometimes very
competent in their own areas, too.  And some filtering is just plain
hard.  Eg, I have a couple of committee chairs who think it is a good
idea to emphasize the importance of college-level list traffic related
to their committee work, that comes on lists we're all subscribed to,
by forwarding them to everybody in the department -- I'd like to
spambucket them based on list serial numbers, but sometimes there is
actual content in the forward (especially dangerous is the occasional
gloss like "this means you, Prof. Turnbull" -- since these messages
are written in Japanese, that's actually more helpful than annoying :-).

From arpepper at uwaterloo.ca  Thu Dec 10 13:10:14 2015
From: arpepper at uwaterloo.ca (Adrian Pepper)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:10:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View a user's subscription options
Message-ID: <20151210181014.EEF7316B30C2@ubuntu1204-102.cs.uwaterloo.ca>

 I see https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/user_options lists subscribed topics.
 Which is something of interest.  But it must be run from the server.
 
 I ended up taking my own approach, building on little things I'd written
 before, to do an assessment of topic subscriptions from a web client machine.
 
 Does the following mimic some standard utility somewhere?
 
    #
    # tag-filter
    # From HTML input, output lines of only text or a single tags.
    #
 
 I.e. it will produce...
 (e.g. from output of
     curl -s -b cookiefile https://mailman/mailman/options/test-aharper-subset/aharper--at--dt.uwaterloo.ca  )
 
     <html>
     <head>
     <link rel="SHORTCUT ICON" href="/icons/mm-icon.png">
     <title>
     aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca membership configuration for test-aharper-subset
     </title>
     </head>
     <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff">
     <TABLE WIDTH="100%" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="5">
     <TR>
     <TD WIDTH="100%" BGCOLOR="#99CCFF">
     <B>
     <FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=+1>
     test-aharper-subset mailing list membership configuration for
     aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca
     </FONT>
     [...]
     <tr>
     <td colspan="2">
 
 
 
 
     <p>
     <strong>
     [...]
 
 
 That can simplify rudimentary parsing.
 
 After tag-filter, I can use my "form-filter", which from output such as
 the above can produce...
 
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.disablemail="0"(CHECKED)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.disablemail="1"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.deliver-globally="1"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.digest="0"(CHECKED)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.digest="1"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.mime="0"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.mime="1"(CHECKED)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.mime-globally="1"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.dontreceive="1"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.dontreceive="0"(CHECKED)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.ackposts="0"(CHECKED)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.ackposts="1"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.remind="1"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.remind="0"(CHECKED)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.remind-globally="1"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.conceal="0"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.conceal="1"(CHECKED)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.usertopic="Newsletter%2C"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.usertopic="Test+Topic+2%2C"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.usertopic="Any+Topic%2C"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.usertopic="This+Topic+Should+Match+Nothing%2C"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.usertopic="This+Topic+Should+Match+Everything%2C"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.usertopic="Farmers+Institute+Newsletters+1%2C"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.usertopic="Farmers+Institute+Newsletters+2%2C"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.usertopic="Farmers+Institute+Newsletters+3%2C"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.usertopic="Farmers+Institute+Newsletters+4%2C"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.usertopic="Farmers+Institute+Newsletters+5%2C"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.usertopic="Farmers+Institute+Newsletters+6%2C"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.usertopic="NothingPythonOrg%2C"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.usertopic="NothingMine%2C"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.rcvtopic="0"(CHECKED)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.rcvtopic="1"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.nodupes="0"(CHECKED)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.nodupes="1"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.nodupes-globally="1"(notchecked)
    aharper at dt.uwaterloo.ca.options-submit="Submit My Changes"
 
 (Both tag-filter and form-filter may make simplifying assumptions based
 on what has and has never been seen as mailman HTML, e.g. on what to use
 as "form name").
 
 After turning a simple pipeline like that into "mailman-get-member-options"
 and writing something to do:
 
     get-member-list $listname | \
            xargs -n 1 mailman-get-member-options $listname
 
 I added that to what I run in  my standard list dumps.
 
 Allowing me to assess...
 (relevant output is distributed into */members.optioned)
 
 cs-xh-admin% grep topic= */*optioned | sed 's/^[^:]*:.*[.]//' | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr
    1063 rcvtopic="1"(notchecked)
    1063 rcvtopic="0"(CHECKED)
     104 usertopic="Topic+Which+Gets+No+Posts"(notchecked)
     102 usertopic="Farmers+Institute+Newsletters"(notchecked)
       4 usertopic="This+Topic+Should+Match+Nothing%2C"(notchecked)
       4 usertopic="This+Topic+Should+Match+Everything%2C"(notchecked)
       4 usertopic="Test+Topic+2%2C"(notchecked)
       4 usertopic="SCS+Newsletter%2C"(notchecked)
       4 usertopic="NothingPythonOrg%2C"(notchecked)
       4 usertopic="NothingMine%2C"(notchecked)
       4 usertopic="Farmers+Institute+Newsletters+6%2C"(notchecked)
       4 usertopic="Farmers+Institute+Newsletters+5%2C"(notchecked)
       4 usertopic="Farmers+Institute+Newsletters+4%2C"(notchecked)
       4 usertopic="Farmers+Institute+Newsletters+3%2C"(notchecked)
       4 usertopic="Farmers+Institute+Newsletters+2%2C"(notchecked)
       4 usertopic="Farmers+Institute+Newsletters+1%2C"(notchecked)
       4 usertopic="Any+Topic%2C"(notchecked)
       2 usertopic="Farmers+Institute+Newsletters"(CHECKED)
       1 rcvtopic="1"(CHECKED)
       1 rcvtopic="0"(notchecked)
 cs-xh-admin% 
 
 (Not a lot of interest is selecting based on topic (yet)).
 (The only use so far is my own testing).
 

 Adrian.

On 12/03/2015 1:57 PM -0800 Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> On 12/03/2015 01:09 PM, Adrian Pepper wrote:
> > 
> >  I wrote something (really ugly[*], incrementally developed over a period
[...]
> 
> 
> You might be interested in looking at
> <https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/mailman-subscribers.py> which is
> another web admin membership screenscraper which when run with the --csv
> option produces output like
> 
> 
> > "Full name","email address","mod","hide","nomail","ack","not metoo","nodupes","digest","plain"
> > "Mark Sapiro","mark at msapiro.net","off","off","off","off","off","on","off","off"
> > "Mark","another at address","off","off","[A]","off","off","on","off","off"
> > "Mark","yet at another","off","off","[A]","off","on","on","off","off"
> 
> 
> It uses Python's cookielib to deal with cookies and only requires the
> hostname, listname and admin password for input.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro
> 


From bilias at edu.physics.uoc.gr  Fri Dec 11 08:42:32 2015
From: bilias at edu.physics.uoc.gr (Kapetanakis Giannis)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 15:42:32 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] accept_these_nonmembers from address encoding
 problem
Message-ID: <566AD2C8.8040802@edu.physics.uoc.gr>

Hi,

I have a problem in accept_these_nonmembers option.
The system is not recognizing sender's address cause it contains an 
iso-8859-7 encoded name inside From: header.

As a result it does not much user's email which is included in 
accept_these_nonmembers.

The From: header is like this:
From: 
=?iso-8859-7?B?1C7FLskuIMrRx9TH0ywg0NHPxcTRz9MgxS4gyuHw5fTh7dzq5/I=?=<user at example.com>

The system sees only a sender as ?.?.? instead of user at example.com

Can I force the use of envelope address instead of from address?
I've tried setting
SENDER_HEADERS = (None,)
SENDER_HEADERS = ('from',)
without any luck.

Any other option to try?

System is Centos 5 with mailman-2.1.9

Thanks in advance,

Giannis

From tbibbs at gforgegroup.com  Thu Dec 10 15:27:17 2015
From: tbibbs at gforgegroup.com (Tony Bibbs)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:27:17 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What's the /var/spool/mailman/virgin for?
Message-ID: <CAOHXD-ja=VLEdst01nOGp0u3f1jmPwgU8Up=_KfN19O+j0q4=Q@mail.gmail.com>

I've got an instance of mailman where the contents of
/var/spool/mailman/virgin holds 1.4G of data.  I'm just curious what this
directory is for to determine what is putting the data there and what's
responsible for sending it along.  The same directory is empty for most
other mailman instances I have access to.

Thanks in advance,

--Tony

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Dec 11 11:18:41 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:18:41 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] What's the /var/spool/mailman/virgin for?
In-Reply-To: <CAOHXD-ja=VLEdst01nOGp0u3f1jmPwgU8Up=_KfN19O+j0q4=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOHXD-ja=VLEdst01nOGp0u3f1jmPwgU8Up=_KfN19O+j0q4=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <566AF761.50405@msapiro.net>

On 12/10/2015 12:27 PM, Tony Bibbs wrote:
> I've got an instance of mailman where the contents of
> /var/spool/mailman/virgin holds 1.4G of data.  I'm just curious what this
> directory is for to determine what is putting the data there and what's
> responsible for sending it along.  The same directory is empty for most
> other mailman instances I have access to.


The virgin queue is where Mailman queues all internally generated
messages to be sent. These are things like notices to admins and
moderators, confirmation requests, digests and so forth.

If this queue is filling up (not being processed), either VirginRunner
is not running or is encountering errors. Check Mailman's qrunner and
error logs.

All queues with the exception of bad and shunt (i.e., archive, bounces,
commands, in, news, out, retry and virgin) are processed by a qrunner
and under normal circumstances never have more than a few entries.

Restarting Mailman will at least try to start VirginRunner.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Dec 11 12:02:00 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 09:02:00 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] accept_these_nonmembers from address encoding
 problem
In-Reply-To: <566AD2C8.8040802@edu.physics.uoc.gr>
References: <566AD2C8.8040802@edu.physics.uoc.gr>
Message-ID: <566B0188.5070303@msapiro.net>

On 12/11/2015 05:42 AM, Kapetanakis Giannis wrote:
> 
> The From: header is like this:
> From:
> =?iso-8859-7?B?1C7FLskuIMrRx9TH0ywg0NHPxcTRz9MgxS4gyuHw5fTh7dzq5/I=?=<user at example.com>
> 
> 
> The system sees only a sender as ?.?.? instead of user at example.com


I think this is <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/702516> fixed
in MM 2.1.15. In any case, this From: is properly recognized in current
Mailman.


> Can I force the use of envelope address instead of from address?
> I've tried setting
> SENDER_HEADERS = (None,)
> SENDER_HEADERS = ('from',)
> without any luck.


SENDER_HEADERS = (None,)

is correct, to use only the envelope sender.

SENDER_HEADERS = ('from',)

will use only the From: header which is exactly what you don't want.

But, these won't help. What you want is

USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER = Yes

but that may not help either. The issue is complicated. A Mailman
Message instance has two methods, get_sender() and get_senders().

get_sender() returns a single address which is the first address found
in the From: header, the Sender: header or the envelope sender in that
order if USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER = No. If USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER = Yes, the
order is Sender: header, From: header, envelope sender, so
USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER is really a misnomer; it really means prefer Sender:
over From:.

get_senders() returns a list of all the addresses found in the places
listed in SENDER_HEADERS searched in the order they appear there, so
with SENDER_HEADERS = (None,), get_senders() will return a list
containing only the envelope sender.

The issue you have is because Mailman uses the addrersses returned by
get_senders() to determine list membership. If one of those addresses is
a list member, the post is determined to be a post from the first member
address in get_senders(), but if none of those is a list member, only
the address returned by get_sender() is checked against *_these_nonmembers.

The bottom line here is the only way to address this with list settings
is to set USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER = Yes and to ensure that the incoming post
has a Sender: header with the sender's address.

If you can't do that and you can't upgrade to at least Mailman 2.1.15,
you could consider patching Mailman/Message.py to make get_sender()
return the 'unixfrom', or you could install both patches at
<http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/revision/984>
and
<http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/revision/1271>
(rev 1271 is the fix, but it assumes rev 984).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From bilias at edu.physics.uoc.gr  Fri Dec 11 15:31:10 2015
From: bilias at edu.physics.uoc.gr (Kapetanakis Giannis)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 22:31:10 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] accept_these_nonmembers from address encoding
 problem
In-Reply-To: <566B0188.5070303@msapiro.net>
References: <566AD2C8.8040802@edu.physics.uoc.gr>
 <566B0188.5070303@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <566B328E.70808@edu.physics.uoc.gr>



On 11/12/15 19:02, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
> SENDER_HEADERS = (None,)
>
> is correct, to use only the envelope sender.
>
>
> The bottom line here is the only way to address this with list settings
> is to set USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER = Yes and to ensure that the incoming post
> has a Sender: header with the sender's address.
>
> If you can't do that and you can't upgrade to at least Mailman 2.1.15,
> you could consider patching Mailman/Message.py to make get_sender()
> return the 'unixfrom', or you could install both patches at
> <http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/revision/984>
> and
> <http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/revision/1271>
> (rev 1271 is the fix, but it assumes rev 984).

Thanks Mark for the very thorough reply.

Since the user's mail client does not use Sender header I'll try the 
patches.

best regards,

G


From my_list_address at yahoo.no  Sat Dec 12 16:46:46 2015
From: my_list_address at yahoo.no (Hal)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 22:46:46 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
Message-ID: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no>

Today I received 18 unsubscribe notification mesages, each one telling 
me that "name at addr.ess has been removed from my_list_name".
They all appear to have been sent simultaneously, and since I (the list 
adminisistrator) haven't performed the unsubscribe request myself I 
suspect either some sort of automated request by the Mailman software or 
someone hacking into the system.
I've had this happen to me once before, several months ago.

The only thing I can think of apart from someone hacking into the 
list-server is that Mailman automatically removes members who have 
non-working addresses after a certain amount of list postings. Could 
this be it, or am I right to be worried and should contact the server 
owner to ask if an intrusion has shown up on the logs?
Logging into the Mailman admin page for my list tells me I'm using 
Mailman 2.1.12.

Hal

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Dec 12 17:04:55 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 14:04:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
In-Reply-To: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no>
References: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no>
Message-ID: <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>

On 12/12/2015 01:46 PM, Hal wrote:
> Today I received 18 unsubscribe notification mesages, each one telling
> me that "name at addr.ess has been removed from my_list_name".
> They all appear to have been sent simultaneously, and since I (the list
> adminisistrator) haven't performed the unsubscribe request myself I
> suspect either some sort of automated request by the Mailman software or
> someone hacking into the system.


If they were sent at 09:00 server time (that's the default, but it could
be different) They were almost certainly unsubscribes done by Mailman's
cron/disabled job.

This is a part of Mailman's automated bounce processing.


> The only thing I can think of apart from someone hacking into the
> list-server is that Mailman automatically removes members who have
> non-working addresses after a certain amount of list postings. Could
> this be it, or am I right to be worried and should contact the server
> owner to ask if an intrusion has shown up on the logs?


You should review the settings (and Details links) in your list's web
admin Bounce processing section.

Beyond that, if 18 members were unsubscribed at once it is likely that
the bounces that caused their delivery to be disabled and them to
ultimately be removed were due to something other that the addresses
being invalid, e.g., DMARC or possibly some network issue.

See the FAQ article at <http://wiki.list.org/x/17891458>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From my_list_address at yahoo.no  Sun Dec 13 05:14:48 2015
From: my_list_address at yahoo.no (Hal)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 11:14:48 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
In-Reply-To: <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>
References: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no> <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <566D4518.9010103@yahoo.no>

On 12/12/2015 23:04, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/12/2015 01:46 PM, Hal wrote:
>> Today I received 18 unsubscribe notification mesages, each one telling
>> me that "name at addr.ess has been removed from my_list_name".

> If they were sent at 09:00 server time (that's the default, but it could
> be different) They were almost certainly unsubscribes done by Mailman's
> cron/disabled job.

Thanks -Yes, that's right! 09.00 at the server's time.


> This is a part of Mailman's automated bounce processing.

Glad to have this sorted out!



> You should review the settings (and Details links) in your list's web
> admin Bounce processing section.

Sure. Here are my bounce settings (I believe they're the default ones 
though as I try not to touch stuff I don't fully understand):

bounce processing:	 YES
bounce score threshold:	 5.0
bounce info state after: 7
bounce you are disabled warnings:  3
bounce you are disabled interval:  7

bounce unrecognized goes to list owner:	YES
bounce notify owner on disable:		YES
bounce notify owner on removale:	YES



> Beyond that, if 18 members were unsubscribed at once it is likely that
> the bounces that caused their delivery to be disabled and them to
> ultimately be removed were due to something other that the addresses
> being invalid, e.g., DMARC or possibly some network issue.
>
> See the FAQ article at <http://wiki.list.org/x/17891458>.

Thanks.
So I understand that a certain procedure for fighting spam has been set 
up by many email providers but this is incompatible with how Mailman 
works, causing problems such as the ones I'm experiencing.


Seeing that 17 out of those 18 unsubscribed messages were sent from 
Hotmail I can only assume the above was what happened. Next I will 
locate the other instance I had of automated removals to see if there's 
a similar pattern there.

Most of the discussions in the FAQ article were over my head, so I 
suppose to make it simple I should just change the "bounce processing" 
option to OFF, then resubscribe all the members which were unsubscribed 
and finally emailing each of them with an apology and explanation.

So, by turning this option off I will lose Mailman's ability to 
automatically remove addresses which are no longer reachable? What else 
will I be missing out on?


Hal



of yesterday I found that 17 of them were from hotmail. The remaining 
message was from live.com.au.
I will try and find the other instance (several months ago) of Mailmain
As there seems


Most of that stuff was way over my head but I did understand that


From my_list_address at yahoo.no  Sun Dec 13 05:55:24 2015
From: my_list_address at yahoo.no (Hal)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 11:55:24 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
In-Reply-To: <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>
References: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no> <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <566D4E9C.5080506@yahoo.no>

On 13/12/2015 11:14, Hal wrote:
> On 12/12/2015 23:04, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 12/12/2015 01:46 PM, Hal wrote:
>>> Today I received 18 unsubscribe notification mesages, each one telling
>>> me that "name at addr.ess has been removed from my_list_name".
>
>> If they were sent at 09:00 server time (that's the default, but it could
>> be different) They were almost certainly unsubscribes done by Mailman's
>> cron/disabled job.
>
> Thanks -Yes, that's right! 09.00 at the server's time.

> Seeing that 17 out of those 18 unsubscribed messages were sent from
> Hotmail I can only assume the above was what happened. Next I will
> locate the other instance I had of automated removals to see if there's
> a similar pattern there.

I found the previous instance (actually a couple of other instances) 
when list members had automatically been removed at 09:00, but I didn't 
see any pattern in the addresses as they were all different.
Still, I suppose I should just turn the automatic removal option off so 
this won't ever happen again.

Hal





From my_list_address at yahoo.no  Sun Dec 13 07:42:47 2015
From: my_list_address at yahoo.no (Hal)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 13:42:47 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
In-Reply-To: <566D5F10.7000406@bluegrasspals.com>
References: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no> <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>
 <566D4E9C.5080506@yahoo.no> <566D5F10.7000406@bluegrasspals.com>
Message-ID: <566D67C7.1010202@yahoo.no>

On 13/12/2015 13:05, Jayson Smith wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Unfortunately, disabling automatic removal from the list will only fix
> one effect of the problem, not the problem itself. There's something
> going on which is causing mail to those addresses to bounce. If you are
> receiving messages with the subject of "Bounce action notification"
> these will tell you who is bouncing mail, and the attached mail delivery
> failure reports will tell you why they are bouncing mail, which is
> important. I suspect you have a DMARC or IP reputation issue.

I'm not sure I fully understand this and what to do about it.

Are you saying that even though I turn "automatic removal" off I will 
still have postings from certain list members NOT reaching the list (but 
bouncing with an error message back to me, the list owner -possibly also 
with an error alert to the poster as well)?

Are there other restrictions in the Mailman software which stops 
postings based on other criteria? If yes, can this/these features be 
turned off so in the end I only rely on "only allow posting from 
existing members"? I assume having the latter enabled will at least 
prevent automated spam messages from reaching the list.

Alternatively I'm guessing the solution is to set the list to moderation 
and approve every single message manually. I do have a relatively 
low-volume list, so this is doable (but not something I would enjoy 
enabling) -how is this done actually? By logging into the administration 
interface and clicking on something for every message, or can it be done 
simpler/quicker by simply pressing reply to a certain admin message or 
something?



Hal



From jaybird at bluegrasspals.com  Sun Dec 13 07:05:36 2015
From: jaybird at bluegrasspals.com (Jayson Smith)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 07:05:36 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
In-Reply-To: <566D4E9C.5080506@yahoo.no>
References: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no> <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>
 <566D4E9C.5080506@yahoo.no>
Message-ID: <566D5F10.7000406@bluegrasspals.com>

Hi,

Unfortunately, disabling automatic removal from the list will only fix 
one effect of the problem, not the problem itself. There's something 
going on which is causing mail to those addresses to bounce. If you are 
receiving messages with the subject of "Bounce action notification" 
these will tell you who is bouncing mail, and the attached mail delivery 
failure reports will tell you why they are bouncing mail, which is 
important. I suspect you have a DMARC or IP reputation issue.

Hope this helps.

Jayson

On 12/13/2015 5:55 AM, Hal wrote:
> On 13/12/2015 11:14, Hal wrote:
>> On 12/12/2015 23:04, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>> On 12/12/2015 01:46 PM, Hal wrote:
>>>> Today I received 18 unsubscribe notification mesages, each one telling
>>>> me that "name at addr.ess has been removed from my_list_name".
>>
>>> If they were sent at 09:00 server time (that's the default, but it 
>>> could
>>> be different) They were almost certainly unsubscribes done by Mailman's
>>> cron/disabled job.
>>
>> Thanks -Yes, that's right! 09.00 at the server's time.
>
>> Seeing that 17 out of those 18 unsubscribed messages were sent from
>> Hotmail I can only assume the above was what happened. Next I will
>> locate the other instance I had of automated removals to see if there's
>> a similar pattern there.
>
> I found the previous instance (actually a couple of other instances) 
> when list members had automatically been removed at 09:00, but I 
> didn't see any pattern in the addresses as they were all different.
> Still, I suppose I should just turn the automatic removal option off 
> so this won't ever happen again.
>
> Hal
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jaybird%40bluegrasspals.com
>
>


From jaybird at bluegrasspals.com  Sun Dec 13 08:50:58 2015
From: jaybird at bluegrasspals.com (Jayson Smith)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 08:50:58 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
In-Reply-To: <566D67C7.1010202@yahoo.no>
References: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no> <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>
 <566D4E9C.5080506@yahoo.no> <566D5F10.7000406@bluegrasspals.com>
 <566D67C7.1010202@yahoo.no>
Message-ID: <566D77C2.3040504@bluegrasspals.com>

Hi,

The problem isn't with Mailman receiving unwanted messages. The problem 
is that Mailman is trying to deliver outbound messages, and is having 
problems, messages are being returned as undeliverable. Everything in 
Mailman is working properly up to the point where messages are being 
bounced. This could be for a number of reasons. Some users might have 
outdated addresses, in which case messages would be bounced back with 
errors similar to "No such user" or "User unknown." Some people may have 
full mailboxes. But the more likely problem, since you're having many 
issues come up all at once is that there's a problem between your server 
and the destination mail server for those messages. It could be that the 
DMARC settings in Mailman aren't set correctly and those servers are 
rejecting messages they don't like, or it could be that your server's IP 
address has somehow received a bad reputation, and certain mail servers 
will reject all mail from your server, regardless of sender, recipient, 
or content.

Jayson

On 12/13/2015 7:42 AM, Hal wrote:
> On 13/12/2015 13:05, Jayson Smith wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Unfortunately, disabling automatic removal from the list will only fix
>> one effect of the problem, not the problem itself. There's something
>> going on which is causing mail to those addresses to bounce. If you are
>> receiving messages with the subject of "Bounce action notification"
>> these will tell you who is bouncing mail, and the attached mail delivery
>> failure reports will tell you why they are bouncing mail, which is
>> important. I suspect you have a DMARC or IP reputation issue.
>
> I'm not sure I fully understand this and what to do about it.
>
> Are you saying that even though I turn "automatic removal" off I will 
> still have postings from certain list members NOT reaching the list 
> (but bouncing with an error message back to me, the list owner 
> -possibly also with an error alert to the poster as well)?
>
> Are there other restrictions in the Mailman software which stops 
> postings based on other criteria? If yes, can this/these features be 
> turned off so in the end I only rely on "only allow posting from 
> existing members"? I assume having the latter enabled will at least 
> prevent automated spam messages from reaching the list.
>
> Alternatively I'm guessing the solution is to set the list to 
> moderation and approve every single message manually. I do have a 
> relatively low-volume list, so this is doable (but not something I 
> would enjoy enabling) -how is this done actually? By logging into the 
> administration interface and clicking on something for every message, 
> or can it be done simpler/quicker by simply pressing reply to a 
> certain admin message or something?
>
>
>
> Hal
>
>
>


From lac at openend.se  Sun Dec 13 09:53:17 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 15:53:17 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
In-Reply-To: <566D67C7.1010202@yahoo.no>
References: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no> <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>
 <566D4E9C.5080506@yahoo.no> <566D5F10.7000406@bluegrasspals.com>
 <566D67C7.1010202@yahoo.no>
Message-ID: <201512131453.tBDErHwO029390@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Sun, 13 Dec 2015 13:42:47 +0100, Hal writes:
>On 13/12/2015 13:05, Jayson Smith wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Unfortunately, disabling automatic removal from the list will only fix
>> one effect of the problem, not the problem itself. There's something
>> going on which is causing mail to those addresses to bounce. If you are
>> receiving messages with the subject of "Bounce action notification"
>> these will tell you who is bouncing mail, and the attached mail delivery
>> failure reports will tell you why they are bouncing mail, which is
>> important. I suspect you have a DMARC or IP reputation issue.
>
>I'm not sure I fully understand this and what to do about it.
>
>Are you saying that even though I turn "automatic removal" off I will 
>still have postings from certain list members NOT reaching the list (but 
>bouncing with an error message back to me, the list owner -possibly also 
>with an error alert to the poster as well)?

This is possible.  What is more likely is that a member of your list,
posts something to the list.  Then mailman tries to deliver the mail
to all the subscribers.  When it calls up some_site asking to deliver
mail to subscribers who have subscribed from accounts on some_site,
some_site says something to the effect of:

Drop dead.  We are protecting our users from receiving mail from
you!  No matter how many times you ask us to send mail to them,
we _won't_ because _we don't like you and your crappy mailing list_.

So you need to check your logs and find out if there is a some_site,
or more than one some_site which really doesn't like you.

The usual reasons for disliking you are:

1. We hate your IP, you have bad reputation with us, maybe you have been
   reported as a spammer someplace, or maybe you just send us a lot of
   mail and we don't like that.

Mailman cannot do anything about this problem.  Talking to the site that
hates you can, if the site that hates you is willing to talk to you at
all about the problem.  Large sites, like aol typically do not.   "We
hate you because you are a spammer, and the last thing we want to do
is to tell you how to get around our spam protection.  We don't care
how many innocent non-spammers are hurt by our policies which has falsely
caused them to be considered spammers.  So if you aren't a spammer,
too bad, we won't lose any sleep over the fact that your mail cannot
arrive here.  And we won't talk to you about it, either."

2.  We have a DMARC policy which is designed as follows:

    If mail comes in that originates from a user on one of our sites,
    and it doesn't come in on one of our servers, we will call this spam
    and refuse to deliver it.

The big offenders here are aol and yahoo.  This policy breaks every 
mailing list on the planet.

A user on yahoo.com sends mail to a mailing list, and the list tries
to send it to all the subscribers, and when it tries for all the other
subscribers at yahoo.com, yahoo says, 'This mail that supposedly
came from user at yahoo.com, didn't come from one of our servers. Do
not deliver.'

If this is your problem, and we think it is, you need a mailman 
at least 2.16 and 2.18 is better.  Then we can tell you how to
configure it to rewrite things so that your mailing list mesages
no longer appear to come from their senders, so yahoo doesn't
reject them, but does let people reply to such messages and
have the reply go to the real sender, at yahoo or wherever
the way that you expect.

But first you have to figure out why you are getting the bounces
in the first place.  Check your mailman log files for that.  They
are in different places depending on whether you have a CPanel
mailman, or a regular one, or one of countless other hosting
solutions that I am unfamiliar with.

Does this make sense?

Laura Creighton

From my_list_address at yahoo.no  Sun Dec 13 11:11:03 2015
From: my_list_address at yahoo.no (Hal)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 17:11:03 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
In-Reply-To: <201512131453.tBDErHwO029390@fido.openend.se>
References: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no> <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>
 <566D4E9C.5080506@yahoo.no> <566D5F10.7000406@bluegrasspals.com>
 <566D67C7.1010202@yahoo.no> <201512131453.tBDErHwO029390@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <566D9897.2000908@yahoo.no>

On 13/12/2015 15:53, Laura Creighton wrote:


> What is more likely is that a member of your list,
> posts something to the list.  Then mailman tries to deliver the mail
> to all the subscribers.  When it calls up some_site asking to deliver
> mail to subscribers who have subscribed from accounts on some_site,
> some_site says something to the effect of:
>
> Drop dead.  We are protecting our users from receiving mail from
> you!  No matter how many times you ask us to send mail to them,
> we _won't_ because _we don't like you and your crappy mailing list_.

So "some_site" in your example are all the mail servers around the world 
which REFUSE to receive the posting(s) from my mailing list, and thus 
sends an error message back to my list server's Mailman software.

And as these error messages on my list-server start piling up from 
various mail servers around the world (i.e. "some_site") Mailman says 
"OK, enough! The LIST-MEMBER sending those messages has to be banned as 
messages from him won't receive a vast majority of the other list 
members anyway, so I'll remove him so it won't happen again".

Have I more or less understood it correctly?



> So you need to check your logs and find out if there is a some_site,
> or more than one some_site which really doesn't like you.

OK, I'll ask the server-admin/owner about the logs as I'm not sure where 
they are or how to access them. Which logs specifically are we looking 
for as I'm sure there are many?

I assumed I would get an error message (email) for every time a posting 
didn't reach the list but the latest "bounce action notification" I have 
is from 5 months back, so apparently not. Maybe I've messed with some 
settings in the Mailman web control panel as I kept getting so many of 
them and didn't know what to do about it all.



> The usual reasons for disliking you are:
>
> 1. We hate your IP, you have bad reputation with us, maybe you have been
>     reported as a spammer someplace, or maybe you just send us a lot of
>     mail and we don't like that.

Again, this is the IP address of certain LIST-MEMBERS, right, and not my 
list-server?

Does this also mean that the same receiving mail-servers will refuse 
email sent from the same LIST-MEMBER, but sent directly (i.e. outside of 
my mailing list)?



> Mailman cannot do anything about this problem.  Talking to the site that
> hates you can, if the site that hates you is willing to talk to you at
> all about the problem.  Large sites, like aol typically do not.

I don't have the capacity nor time to contact every single email 
provider refusing to receive messages from certain list members.




> 2.  We have a DMARC policy which is designed as follows:
>
>      If mail comes in that originates from a user on one of our sites,
>      and it doesn't come in on one of our servers, we will call this spam
>      and refuse to deliver it.
>
> The big offenders here are aol and yahoo.  This policy breaks every
> mailing list on the planet.
>
> A user on yahoo.com sends mail to a mailing list, and the list tries
> to send it to all the subscribers, and when it tries for all the other
> subscribers at yahoo.com, yahoo says, 'This mail that supposedly
> came from user at yahoo.com, didn't come from one of our servers. Do
> not deliver.'

Ouch! So it won't accept the email because my list-server PASSES ON a 
message, and that IP address is obviously not the same as that of the 
LIST MEMBER posting that message in the first place?




> If this is your problem, and we think it is, you need a mailman
> at least 2.16 and 2.18 is better.

I'll contact my server-owner/admin to upgrade the Mailman software.
I see from the Mailman site (http://www.list.org/) that version 2.1.20 
is the latest version, and there's version 3.01 as well ("Show don't 
tell", whatever that means).
Is 2.18 the latest stable version?




Then we can tell you how to
> configure it to rewrite things so that your mailing list mesages
> no longer appear to come from their senders, so yahoo doesn't
> reject them, but does let people reply to such messages and
> have the reply go to the real sender, at yahoo or wherever
> the way that you expect.

I know many list-owners prefer to have messages reply back to the poster 
of the message instead of the list itself (I've read those discussions 
many times though I forget why), but for my list I'm sure this would 
mean A LOT of list discussions done outside of the list, which in turn 
defeats the purpose of my list (sharing information).



> Does this make sense?

Certainly more than a couple of days ago! Thanks for explaining :-)


Hal

From lac at openend.se  Sun Dec 13 12:01:28 2015
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 18:01:28 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
In-Reply-To: <566D9897.2000908@yahoo.no>
References: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no> <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>
 <566D4E9C.5080506@yahoo.no> <566D5F10.7000406@bluegrasspals.com>
 <566D67C7.1010202@yahoo.no> <201512131453.tBDErHwO029390@fido.openend.se>
 <566D9897.2000908@yahoo.no>
Message-ID: <201512131701.tBDH1So9031000@fido.openend.se>

In a message of Sun, 13 Dec 2015 17:11:03 +0100, Hal writes:
>On 13/12/2015 15:53, Laura Creighton wrote:
>
>
>> What is more likely is that a member of your list,
>> posts something to the list.  Then mailman tries to deliver the mail
>> to all the subscribers.  When it calls up some_site asking to deliver
>> mail to subscribers who have subscribed from accounts on some_site,
>> some_site says something to the effect of:
>>
>> Drop dead.  We are protecting our users from receiving mail from
>> you!  No matter how many times you ask us to send mail to them,
>> we _won't_ because _we don't like you and your crappy mailing list_.
>
>So "some_site" in your example are all the mail servers around the world 
>which REFUSE to receive the posting(s) from my mailing list, and thus 
>sends an error message back to my list server's Mailman software.

It could be that you are in such a sad state that many places won't
deal with you, but usually the problem is one site, where you have
many users, and that site won't deal with you.   If your 18 bounces
are all from different places, well, maybe you do have 18 users 
who have all managed to use up their disk quota at the same time.
Especially if people on your list have started sending really, really
large files for some reason.

But if the 18 users are all from the same domain, that is reason to
strongly suspect that the reason mail to these users is bouncing is
that their site isn't talking to you, rather than their disk quota 
is full, they all cancelled their accounts and don't exit, they died,
they got fired and their accounts were removed or any of these
other, legitimate reasons for mail to bounce, which has to do with
a problem with their account.  Their accounts are fine.  You just
cannot send mail to them.

>And as these error messages on my list-server start piling up from 
>various mail servers around the world (i.e. "some_site") Mailman says 
>"OK, enough! The LIST-MEMBER sending those messages has to be banned as 
>messages from him won't receive a vast majority of the other list 
>members anyway, so I'll remove him so it won't happen again".
>
>Have I more or less understood it correctly?

No.  Let us say you have 5 users on your list, user1 at aol.com, user2 at aol.com,
user3 at aol.com user4 at aol.com and user5 at aol.com.

user1 at aol.com posts a piece of mail to your list.
mailman tries to deliver to user2, user3, user4 and user5 @ aol.com
aol says "drop dead, we don't talk to you because of our DMARC policy"
mail to user2 user3 user4 and user5 bounces.  Their bounce count is 
incremented.

user2 at aol.com posts a piece of mail to your list.
mailman tries to deliver to user1, user3, user4 and user5 @ aol.com
aol says "drop dead, we don't talk to you because of our DMARC policy"
mail to user1 user3 user4 and user5 bounces.  Their bounce count is 
incremented.

and so on.  Every time somebody from aol sends mail to the list,
it bounces for every other aol member on your list.  Their bounce
counts increase.  

One day, some message sends some of the bounce counts over the limit
mailman has, after which it says -- Too many bounces!  I cannot
deliver mail to this account!  Unsubscribe this person!  And,
because of the way things have happened you get a triggering message
which causes a lot of unsubscribes _from the same site_.

This is what we think has happened to you.  We would be very pleased
to be mistaken about this, but you have to check the logs to find out
why the mail is bouncing.

Whether 18 bounce unsubscribes is a lot depends on the size of your
mailing list.  If your list has 200 members, its an indication something
is seriously wrong.  If it has 20,000 members then everything may be
just fine.

>> So you need to check your logs and find out if there is a some_site,
>> or more than one some_site which really doesn't like you.
>
>OK, I'll ask the server-admin/owner about the logs as I'm not sure where 
>they are or how to access them. Which logs specifically are we looking 
>for as I'm sure there are many?
>
>I assumed I would get an error message (email) for every time a posting 
>didn't reach the list but the latest "bounce action notification" I have 
>is from 5 months back, so apparently not. Maybe I've messed with some 
>settings in the Mailman web control panel as I kept getting so many of 
>them and didn't know what to do about it all.

What sort of mailman do you have?  What is the url for the
administrative interface?  What OS is it running under?  I only know
of some of the places you can find mailman logs, but if we can find out
what system you have and how it is set up and administered, then
somebody here will know where to look.

>> The usual reasons for disliking you are:
>>
>> 1. We hate your IP, you have bad reputation with us, maybe you have been
>>     reported as a spammer someplace, or maybe you just send us a lot of
>>     mail and we don't like that.
>
>Again, this is the IP address of certain LIST-MEMBERS, right, and not my 
>list-server?

No, it is your server.

>Ouch! So it won't accept the email because my list-server PASSES ON a 
>message, and that IP address is obviously not the same as that of the 
>LIST MEMBER posting that message in the first place?

Yes.


>> If this is your problem, and we think it is, you need a mailman
>> at least 2.16 and 2.18 is better.
>
>I'll contact my server-owner/admin to upgrade the Mailman software.
>I see from the Mailman site (http://www.list.org/) that version 2.1.20 
>is the latest version, and there's version 3.01 as well ("Show don't 
>tell", whatever that means).
>Is 2.18 the latest stable version?

No. The current stable GNU Mailman version are 2.1.20 released on 31-Mar-2015.

>I know many list-owners prefer to have messages reply back to the poster 
>of the message instead of the list itself (I've read those discussions 
>many times though I forget why), but for my list I'm sure this would 
>mean A LOT of list discussions done outside of the list, which in turn 
>defeats the purpose of my list (sharing information).

If you have your list configured so that reply-to goes to the list 
rather than to the sender, you will have a more difficult time of it,
but _things can be done_.

>> Does this make sense?
>
>Certainly more than a couple of days ago! Thanks for explaining :-)
>
>
>Hal

Good luck.  

Laura

From weif at weif.net  Sun Dec 13 11:57:33 2015
From: weif at weif.net (Keith Seyffarth)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 09:57:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
In-Reply-To: <566D9897.2000908@yahoo.no> (message from Hal on Sun,
 13 Dec 2015 17:11:03 +0100)
Message-ID: <8437v69the.fsf@maxwell.cjones.org>


>> What is more likely is that a member of your list,
>> posts something to the list.  Then mailman tries to deliver the mail
>> to all the subscribers.  When it calls up some_site asking to deliver
>> mail to subscribers who have subscribed from accounts on some_site,
>> some_site says something to the effect of:
>>
>> Drop dead.  We are protecting our users from receiving mail from
>> you!  No matter how many times you ask us to send mail to them,
>> we _won't_ because _we don't like you and your crappy mailing list_.
>
> So "some_site" in your example are all the mail servers around the world 
> which REFUSE to receive the posting(s) from my mailing list, and thus 
> sends an error message back to my list server's Mailman software.

In this particular example, some_site refers to the specific host the
receiving email addresses that were just automatically unsubscribed were
on, but it could be extrapolated to any site that is blocking your IP.

> And as these error messages on my list-server start piling up from 
> various mail servers around the world (i.e. "some_site") Mailman says 
> "OK, enough! The LIST-MEMBER sending those messages has to be banned as 
> messages from him won't receive a vast majority of the other list 
> members anyway, so I'll remove him so it won't happen again".

No, that isn't quite correct. Mailman sees that messages to
subscriber1 at some_site are bouncing and unsubscribed
subscriber1 at some_site, then sees that messages to subscriber2 at some_site
are bouncing and unsubscribes subscriber2 at some_site.

> Have I more or less understood it correctly?

The recipient addresses are the ones bouncing, and are therefore the
ones that are unsubscribed to stop the bouncing - and to protect your IP
addresses reputation by making it look less like you are a spammer.

<snip log location question and bounce notification question>

>> The usual reasons for disliking you are:
>>
>> 1. We hate your IP, you have bad reputation with us, maybe you have been
>>     reported as a spammer someplace, or maybe you just send us a lot of
>>     mail and we don't like that.
>
> Again, this is the IP address of certain LIST-MEMBERS, right, and not my 
> list-server?

In this case, the IP of the list server.

> Does this also mean that the same receiving mail-servers will refuse 
> email sent from the same LIST-MEMBER, but sent directly (i.e. outside of 
> my mailing list)?

If this is the case, the receiving server (some_site) would likely
refuse any message sent from your list server, whether it was sent
through the mailing list or sent directly.

>> Mailman cannot do anything about this problem.  Talking to the site that
>> hates you can, if the site that hates you is willing to talk to you at
>> all about the problem.  Large sites, like aol typically do not.
>
> I don't have the capacity nor time to contact every single email 
> provider refusing to receive messages from certain list members.

They probably aren't refusing messages from certain list members, but
every message on your mailing list and possibly every message from your
mail server. Of course, this relies on this actually being the issue.

Another possibility is that a school or corporate mail server
administrator made a policy change and pushed new email addresses to
everyone, then after 4 or 6 or 8 months, or maybe a year of forwarding
old addresses to new addresses, deleted the old addresses so they are no
longer valid and these bounced generating the rash of unsubscribes. In
part, this is done by mailman so you do not look like a spammer who will
likely not bother removing invalid addresses from their address
lists. This is very similar to what has been going on with the
cable-provider-I-can't-remember-the-name-of to Bresnan to ComCast to
Charter changes in this part of the US over the last few years. All the
email addresses of the precursor to Bresnan have been deleted, and in
most areas all personal and many business Bresnan email addresses have
been deleted. Some users have had their email address forcibly changed
four times in four years...

>> 2.  We have a DMARC policy which is designed as follows:
>>
>>      If mail comes in that originates from a user on one of our sites,
>>      and it doesn't come in on one of our servers, we will call this spam
>>      and refuse to deliver it.
>>
>> The big offenders here are aol and yahoo.  This policy breaks every
>> mailing list on the planet.
>>
>> A user on yahoo.com sends mail to a mailing list, and the list tries
>> to send it to all the subscribers, and when it tries for all the other
>> subscribers at yahoo.com, yahoo says, 'This mail that supposedly
>> came from user at yahoo.com, didn't come from one of our servers. Do
>> not deliver.'
>
> Ouch! So it won't accept the email because my list-server PASSES ON a 
> message, and that IP address is obviously not the same as that of the 
> LIST MEMBER posting that message in the first place?

Correct, if this is the issue causing your bounces.

<snipped questions about configuring 2.18>

Keith

-- 
----
from my mac to yours...

Keith Seyffarth
mailto:weif at weif.net
http://www.weif.net/ - Home of the First Tank Guide!
http://www.rpgcalendar.net/ - the Montana Role-Playing Calendar
----
http://www.miscon.org/ - Montana's Longest Running Science Fiction Convention

From larry at qhpress.org  Sun Dec 13 12:49:48 2015
From: larry at qhpress.org (Larry Kuenning)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 12:49:48 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
In-Reply-To: <566D4518.9010103@yahoo.no>
References: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no> <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>
 <566D4518.9010103@yahoo.no>
Message-ID: <566DAFBC.8000507@qhpress.org>

On 12/13/2015 5:14 AM, Hal wrote:

> Seeing that 17 out of those 18 unsubscribed messages were sent from
> Hotmail I can only assume the above was what happened. [etc]

This sounds as if Hotmail has joined the villainous club formerly 
composed only of Yahoo and AOL, publishing a DMARC policy of "p=reject". 
  Can anyone else confirm that this has happened?

(Despite all the work Mark has put into updating Mailman 2.1.x to deal 
automatically with the DMARC problem, I'm still handling it by putting 
Yahoo and AOL users on moderation and manually wrapping their posts.  I 
do this because I'm not sure I can successfully upgrade Mailman on a 
Plesk system that I don't really understand; and it's feasible because I 
have only two very low-volume lists.  I guess I now have to do the same 
with Hotmail users?)

-- 
Larry Kuenning
larry at qhpress.org


From larry at qhpress.org  Sun Dec 13 13:35:28 2015
From: larry at qhpress.org (Larry Kuenning)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 13:35:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
In-Reply-To: <201512131701.tBDH1So9031000@fido.openend.se>
References: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no> <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>
 <566D4E9C.5080506@yahoo.no> <566D5F10.7000406@bluegrasspals.com>
 <566D67C7.1010202@yahoo.no> <201512131453.tBDErHwO029390@fido.openend.se>
 <566D9897.2000908@yahoo.no> <201512131701.tBDH1So9031000@fido.openend.se>
Message-ID: <566DBA70.9020609@qhpress.org>

On 12/13/2015 12:01 PM, Laura Creighton wrote:

>> Have I more or less understood it correctly?
>
> No.  Let us say you have 5 users on your list, user1 at aol.com, user2 at aol.com,
> user3 at aol.com user4 at aol.com and user5 at aol.com.
>
> user1 at aol.com posts a piece of mail to your list.
> mailman tries to deliver to user2, user3, user4 and user5 @ aol.com
> aol says "drop dead, we don't talk to you because of our DMARC policy"
> mail to user2 user3 user4 and user5 bounces.  Their bounce count is
> incremented.

But this account is still incomplete.

Besides what AOL does with the attempted deliveries to user2, user3, 
user4, and user5, you also get problems with delivery to users on a lot 
of other domains.  The reason is that some other domains automatically 
consult AOL to see what to do with mail that claims to come from 
user1 at aol.com but didn't reach them directly from an AOL server.  They 
find that AOL has published a DMARC policy of "p=reject", and they 
obediently follow AOL's instruction to reject the post.  So it bounces 
not only for the other AOL users (2 through 5) but for a lot of users on 
miscellaneous other domains.

The problem originates with AOL's DMARC policy but creates bounces in 
delivery attempts to users on many other domains because those domains 
have decided to respect AOL's published "p=reject" policy.

And Hal's report suggests that this is now happening not only with AOL 
and Yahoo (which started this practice in April 2014) but with messages 
originating on Hotmail as well.  Can anyone check that Hotmail has 
published a "p=reject" DMARC policy?

-- 
Larry Kuenning
larry at qhpress.org


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Dec 13 13:39:29 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 10:39:29 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
In-Reply-To: <566D4518.9010103@yahoo.no>
References: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no> <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>
 <566D4518.9010103@yahoo.no>
Message-ID: <566DBB61.5080404@msapiro.net>

On 12/13/2015 02:14 AM, Hal wrote:
> 
> Sure. Here are my bounce settings (I believe they're the default ones
> though as I try not to touch stuff I don't fully understand):
> 
> bounce processing:     YES
> bounce score threshold:     5.0
> bounce info state after: 7
> bounce you are disabled warnings:  3
> bounce you are disabled interval:  7
> 
> bounce unrecognized goes to list owner:    YES
> bounce notify owner on disable:        YES
> bounce notify owner on removale:    YES


Yes, these are the defaults. There are a number of other replies in this
thread and I didn't thoroughly read them all, so some of this may be
redundant, but with the above settings (ignoring typos) if a list
member's ISP bounces posts on 5 different days with no more than 7 days
between bounces, that member's delivery will be disabled and a notice
sent to the list owner (bounce notify owner on disable: = YES)
containing a copy of the bounce message from the member's ISP. This is
where you find out why the ISP is rejecting the message.

It may be because of things like "no such user here" in which case, you
need do nothing more because bounce processing is doing what it's
intended to do. The list member will be sent a notice as well which will
also bounce for the same reason, but that's OK. After 3 7-day intervals,
the member will be unsubscribed and the owner notified.

If the reason in the disabling notice is something else like "message
rejected for DMARC policy reasons" or "we don't like the sending
server", these are things where you may take additional actions. There
are two basic classes here. I'll take them separately.

Rejects because the recipient ISP doesn't like the sending server can be
addressed, but only by the people who control the server. Things like
ensuring proper full-circle DNS (See
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward-confirmed_reverse_DNS>), DKIM
signing outgoing mail, publishing SPF and signing up for various ISP
monitoring services may help. See <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030690>.

Rejects because of DMARC policy occur because the domain of the author
of the post publishes a DMARC p=reject policy, E.g., the post that is
bounced is From: some_user at yahoo.com. Without the list applying some
DMARC mitigation, this post will be bounced by every ISP (not just Yahoo
and AOL) that honors the published DMARC policy of the From: domain.
Note that in this case, the list member should receive the warning
notices sent to the member, and should be able to re-enable delivery and
avoid being unsubscribed.

Beginning with Mailman 2.1.16, and much improved in Mailman 2.1.18,
there are list settings that help with DMARC mitigation by altering the
From: header of the post or wrapping the post in an outer message From:
the list. Prior to Mailman 2.1.16 the only thing a list owner can do are
items 2), 3), 6) or 7) in the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/17891458>.

The bottom line is look at the notices you receive when a member's
delivery is first disabled by bounce and figure out why.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Dec 13 13:49:16 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 10:49:16 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
In-Reply-To: <566DAFBC.8000507@qhpress.org>
References: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no> <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>
 <566D4518.9010103@yahoo.no> <566DAFBC.8000507@qhpress.org>
Message-ID: <566DBDAC.80700@msapiro.net>

On 12/13/2015 09:49 AM, Larry Kuenning wrote:
> On 12/13/2015 5:14 AM, Hal wrote:
> 
>> Seeing that 17 out of those 18 unsubscribed messages were sent from
>> Hotmail I can only assume the above was what happened. [etc]
> 
> This sounds as if Hotmail has joined the villainous club formerly
> composed only of Yahoo and AOL, publishing a DMARC policy of "p=reject".
>  Can anyone else confirm that this has happened?


This is not the case. First of all, it doesn't say anything about
hotmail's DMARC policy. It only says that if these are DMARC bounces,
hotmail is honoring published DMARC policies.

In any case, here's hotmail.com's DMARC record.

_dmarc.hotmail.com.	3600	IN	TXT	"v=DMARC1\; p=none\; pct=100\;
rua=mailto:d at rua.agari.com\; ruf=mailto:d at ruf.agari.com\; fo=1"


p=none means no DMARC policy. This only means that ISP's should not
check DMARC for mail From: the hotmail.com domain. It does not mean that
hotmail won't check DMARC on incoming mail From: domains that do publish
a DMARC policy other than none, and in fact hotmail and other Microsoft
server do check DMARC and have from the beginning.

You can find the DMARC policy for any domain, e.g. example.com, by
querying DNS for a TXT record for the domain with _dmarc. prepended,
e.g. _dmarc.example.com.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Dec 13 13:56:33 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 10:56:33 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
In-Reply-To: <566DBA70.9020609@qhpress.org>
References: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no> <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>
 <566D4E9C.5080506@yahoo.no> <566D5F10.7000406@bluegrasspals.com>
 <566D67C7.1010202@yahoo.no> <201512131453.tBDErHwO029390@fido.openend.se>
 <566D9897.2000908@yahoo.no> <201512131701.tBDH1So9031000@fido.openend.se>
 <566DBA70.9020609@qhpress.org>
Message-ID: <566DBF61.6060904@msapiro.net>

On 12/13/2015 10:35 AM, Larry Kuenning wrote:
> 
> And Hal's report suggests that this is now happening not only with AOL
> and Yahoo (which started this practice in April 2014) but with messages
> originating on Hotmail as well.


No. Hal's report only said that most of the unsubscribed user's were
hotmail. It said nothing about the From: domain of the posts that were
bounced.

In fact, the fact that almost all the unsubscribed users were hotmail
makes it seem that this is not DMARC, but more likely hotmail
(Microsoft) blocking the sending IP.


> Can anyone check that Hotmail has
> published a "p=reject" DMARC policy?


See my reply to your other post
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080216.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Dec 13 14:12:43 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 11:12:43 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
In-Reply-To: <566D9897.2000908@yahoo.no>
References: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no> <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>
 <566D4E9C.5080506@yahoo.no> <566D5F10.7000406@bluegrasspals.com>
 <566D67C7.1010202@yahoo.no> <201512131453.tBDErHwO029390@fido.openend.se>
 <566D9897.2000908@yahoo.no>
Message-ID: <566DC32B.8020204@msapiro.net>

On 12/13/2015 08:11 AM, Hal wrote:
> 
> I assumed I would get an error message (email) for every time a posting
> didn't reach the list but the latest "bounce action notification" I have
> is from 5 months back, so apparently not. Maybe I've messed with some
> settings in the Mailman web control panel as I kept getting so many of
> them and didn't know what to do about it all.


You don't get a notice for every bounce. With all the notices enabled as
you posted earlier, you get every message sent to the list-bounces
address which Mailman can't parse as a bounce. Normally, this is only
spam. You also get only one "bounce action notification" containing a
copy of the disabling bounce when Mailman disables delivery to a member
for bouncing, and you get the "unsubscribed" notice when the member is
removed.

In this case, you should have received the "bounce action notification"
messages for each of the unsubscribed members three weeks prior to their
being unsubscribed. If you didn't receive these, there is some problem
with their delivery. Maybe they went to a spam folder, maybe your ISP
rejected or discarded them. The outgoing mail logs on the Mailman server
will have more info if you can convince someone to look at them and they
know what to look for and they haven't been rotated out of existence by now.


>> The usual reasons for disliking you are:
>>
>> 1. We hate your IP, you have bad reputation with us, maybe you have been
>>     reported as a spammer someplace, or maybe you just send us a lot of
>>     mail and we don't like that.
> 
> Again, this is the IP address of certain LIST-MEMBERS, right, and not my
> list-server?


No. Laura is talking about the IP address of the Mailman server.


> Does this also mean that the same receiving mail-servers will refuse
> email sent from the same LIST-MEMBER, but sent directly (i.e. outside of
> my mailing list)?


No.


> 
> I'll contact my server-owner/admin to upgrade the Mailman software.
> I see from the Mailman site (http://www.list.org/) that version 2.1.20
> is the latest version, and there's version 3.01 as well ("Show don't
> tell", whatever that means).
> Is 2.18 the latest stable version?


No, 2.1.20 is the latest 'stable' version of the 2.1 series. Mailman 3
is a major change and is currently recommended only for new lists as
there is as yet no defined migration path for MM 2.1 lists.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Dec 13 14:40:28 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 11:40:28 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
In-Reply-To: <566D67C7.1010202@yahoo.no>
References: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no> <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>
 <566D4E9C.5080506@yahoo.no> <566D5F10.7000406@bluegrasspals.com>
 <566D67C7.1010202@yahoo.no>
Message-ID: <566DC9AC.8020606@msapiro.net>

On 12/13/2015 04:42 AM, Hal wrote:
> 
> Are you saying that even though I turn "automatic removal" off I will
> still have postings from certain list members NOT reaching the list (but
> bouncing with an error message back to me, the list owner -possibly also
> with an error alert to the poster as well)?


If you turn of bounce_processing (the only way to turn off automatic
removal other than perhaps setting bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings to a
very large number), Mailman will ignore all bounces of posts. It won't
notify the admin or the user, and if the bouncing user's ISP is
compliant, it won't notify the poster either as all bounce notifications
should be returned to the envelope sender of the delivered post which is
Mailman and not the poster.


> Are there other restrictions in the Mailman software which stops
> postings based on other criteria? If yes, can this/these features be
> turned off so in the end I only rely on "only allow posting from
> existing members"? I assume having the latter enabled will at least
> prevent automated spam messages from reaching the list.


As long as the spam doesn't spoof a list member address.


> Alternatively I'm guessing the solution is to set the list to moderation
> and approve every single message manually. I do have a relatively
> low-volume list, so this is doable (but not something I would enjoy
> enabling) -how is this done actually? By logging into the administration
> interface and clicking on something for every message, or can it be done
> simpler/quicker by simply pressing reply to a certain admin message or
> something?


Controlling what posts reach the list will not have any effect on posts
which are blocked by recipient ISPs for DMARC or other policy reasons
except perhaps indirectly by affecting the reputation of the Mailman
server, but if I understand correctly, your list is one of many on a
shared host, so you are in some sense at the mercy of others.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mailmanu-20150316 at billmail.scconsult.com  Mon Dec 14 10:27:00 2015
From: mailmanu-20150316 at billmail.scconsult.com (Bill Cole)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 10:27:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Many users unsubscribed at once (not by me)
In-Reply-To: <566DBF61.6060904@msapiro.net>
References: <566C95C6.3050205@yahoo.no> <566C9A07.7090905@msapiro.net>
 <566D4E9C.5080506@yahoo.no> <566D5F10.7000406@bluegrasspals.com>
 <566D67C7.1010202@yahoo.no> <201512131453.tBDErHwO029390@fido.openend.se>
 <566D9897.2000908@yahoo.no> <201512131701.tBDH1So9031000@fido.openend.se>
 <566DBA70.9020609@qhpress.org> <566DBF61.6060904@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <0E11D059-2639-402E-83F9-6DB18749AE41@billmail.scconsult.com>

On 13 Dec 2015, at 13:56, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> In fact, the fact that almost all the unsubscribed users were hotmail
> makes it seem that this is not DMARC, but more likely hotmail
> (Microsoft) blocking the sending IP.

And with the one other being live.com.au (roughly: Australian Hotmail) 
it becomes a distinctively Microsoft problem.

For what it is worth, recently the policy staff and policies of 
Microsoft's former-Hotmail and former-Frontbridge have seemed to be 
converging/merging. One win for the world of this is that the chronic 
problem of Hotmail/Live.com mail being accepted but silently discarded 
has been replaced by overt rejection at the MX border (no, not THAT MX 
border) in many cases. For Mailman lists, one result is that long-dead 
addresses are getting cleaned out because they are now bouncing. Another 
result is that some silent discards have been replaced by delivery, so 
in some cases people who haven't seen mail from a list in years and now 
are seeing it and telling MS that it's spam. The second process can lead 
to broad blocking across MS-hosted domains, but at least now it is 
visible.

From eisaksso at gmail.com  Sun Dec 13 12:18:38 2015
From: eisaksso at gmail.com (Eva Isaksson)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 19:18:38 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Encoding problem with 2.15 to 2.18 upgrade with
 Finnish
Message-ID: <CAEMzDVPAOw=jOK6NpruVh0N5UzyVGDhiLuS4TLOjDSzAzxt_Yg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I have a charset encoding problem that I'm unable to solve. I've been
reading FAQs and list archives with little success.

Our lists are in Finnish. The setup: our mailman installation uses its own
translation file that is different from the Finnish translation that comes
with the release. Because of that, mailman is on hold, and gets upgraded
manually so that we can msfmt our own mailman.po.

We have been running 2.15, on Debian, but because of the DMARC situation
it's time to upgrade to 2.18..

Our upgrades have been rather routine so far, but this time we ran into
problems. Suddenly, the character encoding was producing quite unreadable
interfaces.

Believing that the translation file was now supposed to be in utf-8 instead
of iso-8859-1 I  tried to re-encode all relevant files and change the
mm_cfg.py values accordingly. This did not help at all.

I've tried to check whether there have been any changes to mailman that
could explain this, but no luck.

- Eva Isaksson

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec 14 14:18:21 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:18:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Encoding problem with 2.15 to 2.18 upgrade with
 Finnish
In-Reply-To: <CAEMzDVPAOw=jOK6NpruVh0N5UzyVGDhiLuS4TLOjDSzAzxt_Yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEMzDVPAOw=jOK6NpruVh0N5UzyVGDhiLuS4TLOjDSzAzxt_Yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <566F15FD.5060102@msapiro.net>

On 12/13/2015 09:18 AM, Eva Isaksson wrote:
> 
> We have been running 2.15, on Debian, but because of the DMARC situation
> it's time to upgrade to 2.18..


Why not 2.1.20?


> Our upgrades have been rather routine so far, but this time we ran into
> problems. Suddenly, the character encoding was producing quite unreadable
> interfaces.
> 
> Believing that the translation file was now supposed to be in utf-8 instead
> of iso-8859-1 I  tried to re-encode all relevant files and change the
> mm_cfg.py values accordingly. This did not help at all.


Mailman's character set for Finnish is iso-8859-1. All templates and the
mailman.po message catalog should be iso-8859-1 encoded. This has not
changed in the source distribution.  I don't know what changes there
might be in the Debian package that would affect this, but I don't see
why there would be any.

You might want to refer to the FAQ article at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/17891606> and consider upgrading from source.
Note that the head of the branch at
<https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1> is quite stable
and is what we are running for all the @python.org lists. See
<http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/view/head:/NEWS> for
changes since 2.1.20.

Perhaps there is something in the your web server that is overriding the
charset specified in the META tag in Mailman's web pages?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From arpepper at uwaterloo.ca  Thu Dec 17 17:57:26 2015
From: arpepper at uwaterloo.ca (Adrian Pepper)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 17:57:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using mailman output in web page documentation
Message-ID: <20151217225726.2706316E46C1@ubuntu1204-102.cs.uwaterloo.ca>

 I found it convenient to use mechanical dumps of mailman pages in attempting
 to create some moderator documentation, intended primarily for local use
 at the university where I work.

 Such dumped pages do not contain any formal copyright/left statement beyond
     alt="GNU's NOT Unix"

 1. Is there a suitable comment one could/should (should not?) add to
    attribute the source of such excerpts to GNU (GFDL?).

 I use HTML dumps rather than screenshots so that I can modify them to
 create a mockup of a page which refers to a particular mailing list by
 name, and actually links variously to the real mailman server links,
 or further mockups as seems appropriate (to me).

 In addition, form items such as radio buttons will tend to appear in the
 manner the particular browser will display them on the real page.


Adrian Pepper 
P.S. That's enough to start.  Further analysis and tangential questions
"2. and 3." exist already, perhaps in response to followups.


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 17 23:47:09 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 20:47:09 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using mailman output in web page documentation
In-Reply-To: <20151217225726.2706316E46C1@ubuntu1204-102.cs.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <20151217225726.2706316E46C1@ubuntu1204-102.cs.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <56738FCD.9030404@msapiro.net>

On 12/17/2015 02:57 PM, Adrian Pepper wrote:
>  I found it convenient to use mechanical dumps of mailman pages in attempting
>  to create some moderator documentation, intended primarily for local use
>  at the university where I work.
> 
>  Such dumped pages do not contain any formal copyright/left statement beyond
>      alt="GNU's NOT Unix"
> 
>  1. Is there a suitable comment one could/should (should not?) add to
>     attribute the source of such excerpts to GNU (GFDL?).


I am neither a lawyer nor an expert in free/open source licenses, so
take this with a grain of salt.

Mailman is produced by the GNU Mailman project which is a GNU project.
As such, the Mailman developers have assigned copyright to the Free
Software Foundation and Mailman is distributed and licensed under the
GPL (v2 for Mailman 2.1).

Section 0. of the GPL says

<quote>
  0. This License applies to any program or other work which contains
a notice placed by the copyright holder saying it may be distributed
under the terms of this General Public License.  The "Program", below,
refers to any such program or work, and a "work based on the Program"
means either the Program or any derivative work under copyright law:
that is to say, a work containing the Program or a portion of it,
either verbatim or with modifications and/or translated into another
language.  (Hereinafter, translation is included without limitation in
the term "modification".)  Each licensee is addressed as "you".

Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not
covered by this License; they are outside its scope.  The act of
running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program
is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the
Program (independent of having been made by running the Program).
Whether that is true depends on what the Program does.
</quote>

The HTML produced by Mailman's CGI modules does contain lots of literal
strings (or translations thereof) which are part of the program, so it
is at least arguable that this HTML is a derivative work.

Thus, I think a brief statement to the effect that this HTML is
copyright by the Free Software Foundation, Inc. and licensed under the
GPL would be appropriate

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Dec 18 22:48:40 2015
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 12:48:40 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using mailman output in web page documentation
In-Reply-To: <56738FCD.9030404@msapiro.net>
References: <20151217225726.2706316E46C1@ubuntu1204-102.cs.uwaterloo.ca>
 <56738FCD.9030404@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <22132.54168.938680.383967@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:
 > On 12/17/2015 02:57 PM, Adrian Pepper wrote:

 > >  I found it convenient to use mechanical dumps of mailman pages
 > >  in attempting to create some moderator documentation, intended
 > >  primarily for local use at the university where I work.
 > > 
 > >  Such dumped pages do not contain any formal copyright/left
 > >  statement beyond
 > >      alt="GNU's NOT Unix"
 > > 
 > >  1. Is there a suitable comment one could/should (should not?) add to
 > >     attribute the source of such excerpts to GNU (GFDL?).

FDL is not possible without permission of the FSF.  All of Mailman is
licensed under the GPL, including documentation and text included in
the executable program.  (My personal recommendation is that the FDL
should be avoided in favor of any other free license in use by the
project.  Eg, technically FDL+GPL does not permit anyone but the FSF
to move documentation out of code into manuals, or from manuals into
code.  It also has a number of obnoxious provisions like cover texts
and invariant sections which are explicitly intended to be abused to
make political statements that downstream is expected to disagree
with, and pander to commercial interests.)

 > I am neither a lawyer nor an expert in free/open source licenses, so
 > take this with a grain of salt.

IANAL, but I'm somewhat knowledgable.

 > Mailman is produced by the GNU Mailman project which is a GNU project.
 > As such, the Mailman developers have assigned copyright to the Free

This phrasing is somewhat inaccurate.  Assignment is not required of
GNU projects, nor is assignment to the FSF restricted to GNU projects.
It happens that Mailman has a policy of assigning to the FSF.

 > Software Foundation and Mailman is distributed and licensed under the
 > GPL (v2 for Mailman 2.1).

v2 or later.

 > The HTML produced by Mailman's CGI modules does contain lots of
 > literal strings (or translations thereof) which are part of the
 > program, so it is at least arguable that this HTML is a derivative
 > work.

It's clearly a derivative work.

 > Thus, I think a brief statement to the effect that this HTML is
 > copyright by the Free Software Foundation, Inc.

Adrian's copyright is probably also involved.  I'm not sure it's a
good idea to mention the FSF specifically here.  If anybody wants to
do something with Adrian's documentation beyond what's permitted by
the GPL, they probably need to talk to him first anyway, unless his
whole documentation really is just saved HTML as created by the
Mailman CGI.

 > and licensed under the GPL would be appropriate.

The FSF's current preferred form for source code is

    GNU Mailman is free software: you can redistribute it and/or
    modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as
    published by the Free Software Foundation, either version 2 of the
    License, or (at your option) any later version.

    GNU Mailman is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but
    WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
    MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the GNU
    General Public License for more details.

    You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
    along with GNU Mailman.  If not, see <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.

What I personally would do in HTML is put "This document is derived
from GNU Mailman, and distributed under the same terms." at the end of
the document, and then link to the GPL on the GNU site.  Also add the
text above as an HTML comment, or better yet as ALT= text for the link.

I'm as picky as anyone about these things.  I'm mentioning this as the
*maximum* you would want to do (anything more leads to maintenance
problems in the long run).

From arpepper at uwaterloo.ca  Mon Dec 21 15:24:05 2015
From: arpepper at uwaterloo.ca (Adrian Pepper)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:24:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderated approval via email
Message-ID: <20151221202405.289CE17043EF@ubuntu1204-102.cs.uwaterloo.ca>

I struggled with this problem until I unearthed this gem from the archive.
In addition we were using aliases as moderators, so I thought that was the
key problem, but subsequent testing suggests there is no such restriction.
Is that correct?  So it is alright to use an alias as list administrator
or moderator, but moderator recipients must simply know the "trick" of
replying to the contained message, not the overall message.

I usually use an "heirloom-mailx"-like MUA and I assumed it was not smart
enough to generate correct headers.  But now I'm reasonably sure I could
create a working response to the sub-message in a number of ways.

I have a means to save a message into a mailbox where I can view it with
Thunderbird on my workstation.  But I don't really use Thunderbird much,
mostly just to look at messages heavy with graphics and other noise.
Took me a while to work out that you need to "Open all attachments"
(somewhat hidden in a non-obvious menu, and there didn't seem to be a
selective option) which would give you a window you could reply to.
And voila!  I finally managed to get that pending posting to disappear!
And after I removed my email address from both owner and moderator
boxes, I still seemed to be able to dicard another pending posting.

I struggled so long with this I thought I'd post my dumpster diving
and added observations in case it helped anyone else.  I didn't find
anything like the following in a FAQ.

     Note also, that this moderation message is a multipart/mixed message
     and the part that says "If you reply to this message, keeping the
     Subject: header intact ..." is it's own message/rfc822 part and it's
     that message part you must reply to with the Approved: <password>
     line, not the "outer" message.

Perhaps mention of this should be added.  My apologies if it's already
there and my web and keyword searches overlooked it.

Now I know what to look for, I find more recent coverage on the list.
https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/msg64564.html
(May 2014)


Adrian.

Mark Sapiro msapiro at value.net wrote Thu Feb 10 01:58:46 CET 2005
> 
>     Previous message: [Mailman-Users] Moderated approval via email
>     Next message: [Mailman-Users] Auto Subscriptions to Mailman list
>     Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
> 
> Pantejo, Barbara                FTL wrote:
> >
> >As the list admin/moderator, I received an email to approve a posting to a
> >particular mailing list, but the instructions on approving via a reply email
> >is confusing:
> >
> >"If you reply to this message and include an Approved: header with the list
> >password in it, the message will be approved for posting to the list.  The
> >Approved: header can also appear in the first line of the body of the
> >reply."
> >
> >What does "header" mean and where on a reply email does it exist? Does
> >"header" mean the Subject line?
> >
> >Does this mean one of the following?:
> >1) Clear out the Subject line of the email and place "Approved:{list
> >password}"
> 
> No.
> 
> >2) Reply with the Subject line intact and place "Approved:{list password}"
> >as the first line of the reply message.
> 
> Yes
> 
> >3) Something else...
> 
> If your MUA allows it, you can actually add the Approved: <password>
> line in the headers of the reply as a separate header, not in the
> Subject:.
> 
> >I tried option 1 and 2 and it did not work. Should there be a space between
> >the colon and {list password}?  
> 
> 
> 2) should work. A space is conventional, but not required. The password
> must be the list admin password or the list moderator password. The
> site password is explicitly not accepted to discourage sending it in
> plain text e-mail.
> 
> Note also, that this moderation message is a multipart/mixed message
> and the part that says "If you reply to this message, keeping the
> Subject: header intact ..." is it's own message/rfc822 part and it's
> that message part you must reply to with the Approved: <password>
> line, not the "outer" message.
> 
> I.e. the reply must be to the <listname>-request address, not the
> <listname>-owner address, and the subject must be the "confirm
> long-string-of-hex-digits" subject, not the "<listname> post from
> <poster> requires approval" subject.
> 
> --
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec 21 21:59:11 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 18:59:11 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderated approval via email
In-Reply-To: <20151221202405.289CE17043EF@ubuntu1204-102.cs.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <20151221202405.289CE17043EF@ubuntu1204-102.cs.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <5678BC7F.2060000@msapiro.net>

On 12/21/2015 12:24 PM, Adrian Pepper wrote:
> I struggled with this problem until I unearthed this gem from the archive.
> In addition we were using aliases as moderators, so I thought that was the
> key problem, but subsequent testing suggests there is no such restriction.
> Is that correct?  So it is alright to use an alias as list administrator
> or moderator, but moderator recipients must simply know the "trick" of
> replying to the contained message, not the overall message.


Mailman doesn't care who the confirmation email is From:. If the confirm
token is correct and the message is sent to the proper place, that's all
that's required.

Also, see the FAQ article at <http://wiki.list.org/x/4030693>.


> I struggled so long with this I thought I'd post my dumpster diving
> and added observations in case it helped anyone else.  I didn't find
> anything like the following in a FAQ.
> 
>      Note also, that this moderation message is a multipart/mixed message
>      and the part that says "If you reply to this message, keeping the
>      Subject: header intact ..." is it's own message/rfc822 part and it's
>      that message part you must reply to with the Approved: <password>
>      line, not the "outer" message.
> 
> Perhaps mention of this should be added.  My apologies if it's already
> there and my web and keyword searches overlooked it.


I just added a FAQ article at <http://wiki.list.org/x/17891907>. Feel
free to edit it if you wish. Instructions for obtaining write access to
the wiki are at <http://wiki.list.org/FrontPage>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gbcbooksmj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 26 02:10:28 2015
From: gbcbooksmj at gmail.com (MichaelLeung)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 15:10:28 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
Message-ID: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com>

hi all

anyone had face this problem before ?

if i send the mail from a client end , like thunder, mailman can read it 
correctly .

From gbcbooksmj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 26 07:11:11 2015
From: gbcbooksmj at gmail.com (MichaelLeung)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 20:11:11 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>

hi

i locate this problem

maillman cannot read subject when i use command like mail -s 'subject' 
xxx at abc.com,
but if i dont  speacify the subject at the first, like mail xxx at abc.com, 
when i subject key prompt , then enter the subject , this mail can be 
read by mailman correctly .

does any know what wrong?

On 12/26/2015 03:10 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> hi all
>
> anyone had face this problem before ?
>
> if i send the mail from a client end , like thunder, mailman can read 
> it correctly .


From gbcbooksmj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 26 07:55:46 2015
From: gbcbooksmj at gmail.com (MichaelLeung)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 20:55:46 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com>

sorry , i think i m wrong,

subject is not the root case,

i actually user -r paramater to speacify the sender as the mailman's 
name , then mailman failed to ready mail's subject.

any one can fix this ?

On 12/26/2015 08:11 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> hi
>
> i locate this problem
>
> maillman cannot read subject when i use command like mail -s 'subject' 
> xxx at abc.com,
> but if i dont  speacify the subject at the first, like mail 
> xxx at abc.com, when i subject key prompt , then enter the subject , this 
> mail can be read by mailman correctly .
>
> does any know what wrong?
>
> On 12/26/2015 03:10 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>> hi all
>>
>> anyone had face this problem before ?
>>
>> if i send the mail from a client end , like thunder, mailman can read 
>> it correctly .
>


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Dec 26 12:43:42 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 09:43:42 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <567ED1CE.5040108@msapiro.net>

On 12/26/2015 04:55 AM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> ...
> 
> On 12/26/2015 08:11 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>> ...
>> On 12/26/2015 03:10 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>>> hi all
>>>
>>> anyone had face this problem before ?
>>>
>>> if i send the mail from a client end , like thunder, mailman can read
>>> it correctly .


A message is held for "implicit destination" is the list is not
explicitly addressed in To: or Cc: of the message. See the lists web
admin Privacy options... ->Recipient filters settings for ways to
control this.

This has nothing to do with the Subject: or the envelope sender
(sendmail -r option). If Mailman's require_explicit_destination is Yes,
sending the message to the list posting address is not sufficient. The
message must also have a To: or Cc: header with the list posting address.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From bsfinkel at att.net  Sat Dec 26 20:07:47 2015
From: bsfinkel at att.net (Barry S. Finkel)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 19:07:47 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>

 >> On 12/26/2015 03:10 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
 >>> hi all
 >>>
 >>> anyone had face this problem before ?
 >>>
 >>> if i send the mail from a client end , like thunder, mailman can
 >>> read it correctly .



On 12/26/2015 08:11 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>> hi
>>
>> i locate this problem
>>
>> maillman cannot read subject when i use command like mail -s 'subject'
>> xxx at abc.com,
>> but if i dont  speacify the subject at the first, like mail
>> xxx at abc.com, when i subject key prompt , then enter the subject , this
>> mail can be read by mailman correctly .
>>
>> does any know what wrong?



On 12/26/2015 6:55 AM, MichaelLeung wrote:
 > sorry , i think i m wrong,
 >
 > subject is not the root case,
 >
 > i actually user -r paramater to speacify the sender as the mailman's
 > name , then mailman failed to ready mail's subject.
 >
 > any one can fix this ?



The message "implicit destination" is issued if the list name to which
the mail is addressed does not appear in an RFC5322 "From:" or "To:"
line.  This implies that the list name was in a "Bcc:" line.  If you
want to send to a list via "Bcc:", you have to change the list
configuration to allow implicit destination.  The mailman-supplied
default is to not allow the list name in a "Bcc:"

--Barry Finkel


From gbcbooksmj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 26 21:23:52 2015
From: gbcbooksmj at gmail.com (MichaelLeung)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:23:52 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
Message-ID: <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com>

i sent it to a mailbox instead of a maillist ,  mailbox can read the 
subject, i did use cc or bcc .

On 12/27/2015 09:07 AM, Barry S. Finkel wrote:
> >> On 12/26/2015 03:10 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> >>> hi all
> >>>
> >>> anyone had face this problem before ?
> >>>
> >>> if i send the mail from a client end , like thunder, mailman can
> >>> read it correctly .
>
>
>
> On 12/26/2015 08:11 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>>> hi
>>>
>>> i locate this problem
>>>
>>> maillman cannot read subject when i use command like mail -s 'subject'
>>> xxx at abc.com,
>>> but if i dont  speacify the subject at the first, like mail
>>> xxx at abc.com, when i subject key prompt , then enter the subject , this
>>> mail can be read by mailman correctly .
>>>
>>> does any know what wrong?
>
>
>
> On 12/26/2015 6:55 AM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> > sorry , i think i m wrong,
> >
> > subject is not the root case,
> >
> > i actually user -r paramater to speacify the sender as the mailman's
> > name , then mailman failed to ready mail's subject.
> >
> > any one can fix this ?
>
>
>
> The message "implicit destination" is issued if the list name to which
> the mail is addressed does not appear in an RFC5322 "From:" or "To:"
> line.  This implies that the list name was in a "Bcc:" line.  If you
> want to send to a list via "Bcc:", you have to change the list
> configuration to allow implicit destination.  The mailman-supplied
> default is to not allow the list name in a "Bcc:"
>
> --Barry Finkel
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/gbcbooksmj%40gmail.com


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Dec 26 21:44:42 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 18:44:42 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>

On 12/26/2015 06:23 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> i sent it to a mailbox instead of a maillist ,  mailbox can read the
> subject, i did use cc or bcc .


I cannot understand what exactly your issue is. Your subject for this
message says "mails send from sendmail with commandline to mailman
become 'Message has implicit destination'"

This seems to say to me that you are sending a message to a Mailman list
and it is being held by Mailman for the reason 'Message has implicit
destination'. If that is the case, it is being held because the list's
Privacy options... -> Recipient filters -> require_explicit_destination
setting is Yes and either the list or one of the list's
acceptable_aliases is not explicitly in a To: or Cc: header of the
message received by the Mailman list.

If that is not the case, then I don't understand what the problem is.

Also note, if you use the command line sendmail command as in

sendmail list at example.com < file/with/message

the sendmail command adds no headers to the message in
file/with/message. That message must contain headers like From:,
Subject: and To:, in particular

To: list at example.com

the sendmail command itself adds no headers to the message.

If you still don't understand what's happening, please post the exact
command that you issue to send the mail and the contents of the file you
are sending.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gbcbooksmj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 26 22:34:45 2015
From: gbcbooksmj at gmail.com (MichaelLeung)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 11:34:45 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com>

hi Mark

thanks for your reply

my issue is when i send a email by using sendmail commandline to mailist 
, maillist services can not read this message correctly , the message 
will become a "Message has implicit destination" warning , but it did 
have a subject and i pretty sure that i have a subject and i did not use 
cc or bcc .

this issue will happen if i speacified maillist name as the sender and 
the recipient from the comandline , that means ,if i send it from client 
, maillist service will forward it to its members as normal.

On 12/27/2015 10:44 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/26/2015 06:23 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>> i sent it to a mailbox instead of a maillist ,  mailbox can read the
>> subject, i did use cc or bcc .
>
> I cannot understand what exactly your issue is. Your subject for this
> message says "mails send from sendmail with commandline to mailman
> become 'Message has implicit destination'"
>
> This seems to say to me that you are sending a message to a Mailman list
> and it is being held by Mailman for the reason 'Message has implicit
> destination'. If that is the case, it is being held because the list's
> Privacy options... -> Recipient filters -> require_explicit_destination
> setting is Yes and either the list or one of the list's
> acceptable_aliases is not explicitly in a To: or Cc: header of the
> message received by the Mailman list.
>
> If that is not the case, then I don't understand what the problem is.
>
> Also note, if you use the command line sendmail command as in
>
> sendmail list at example.com < file/with/message
>
> the sendmail command adds no headers to the message in
> file/with/message. That message must contain headers like From:,
> Subject: and To:, in particular
>
> To: list at example.com
>
> the sendmail command itself adds no headers to the message.
>
> If you still don't understand what's happening, please post the exact
> command that you issue to send the mail and the contents of the file you
> are sending.
>


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Dec 26 22:52:54 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 19:52:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>

> 
> my issue is when i send a email by using sendmail commandline to mailist
> , maillist services can not read this message correctly , the message
> will become a "Message has implicit destination" warning , but it did
> have a subject and i pretty sure that i have a subject and i did not use
> cc or bcc .


The message file that you sent did not contain a To: header with the
list address.

The sendmail command, unlike the mail command, does not add headers to
the input and your message must have a To: header with the list address
in order to not be flagged for implicit destination.

In other words if you are sending the message with some command like

sendmail -r you at example.com list at example.com < input_file

the file input_file must contain things like

--------------------------------------------------
To: list at example.com
From: you at example.com
Subject: The message subject

The body
of the message
--------------------------------------------------

The sending MTA will probably add headers like Message-ID: and Date:,
but it won't add To: which is your issue.

If you want to use a command line command that will add header like To:
and Subject: use the mail command, not the sendmail command.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gbcbooksmj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 26 22:58:44 2015
From: gbcbooksmj at gmail.com (MichaelLeung)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 11:58:44 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com>

i did not know the different between mail and sendmail

i actually use mail , not sendmail, sorry

for example

echo "please dont reply this email" | mail -v -s 'this is a test mail' 
-r mailman at maillist.com mailman at maillist.com



On 12/27/2015 11:52 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> my issue is when i send a email by using sendmail commandline to mailist
>> , maillist services can not read this message correctly , the message
>> will become a "Message has implicit destination" warning , but it did
>> have a subject and i pretty sure that i have a subject and i did not use
>> cc or bcc .
>
> The message file that you sent did not contain a To: header with the
> list address.
>
> The sendmail command, unlike the mail command, does not add headers to
> the input and your message must have a To: header with the list address
> in order to not be flagged for implicit destination.
>
> In other words if you are sending the message with some command like
>
> sendmail -r you at example.com list at example.com < input_file
>
> the file input_file must contain things like
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> To: list at example.com
> From: you at example.com
> Subject: The message subject
>
> The body
> of the message
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> The sending MTA will probably add headers like Message-ID: and Date:,
> but it won't add To: which is your issue.
>
> If you want to use a command line command that will add header like To:
> and Subject: use the mail command, not the sendmail command.
>


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Dec 26 23:20:01 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 20:20:01 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>

On 12/26/2015 07:58 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> i did not know the different between mail and sendmail
> 
> i actually use mail , not sendmail, sorry
> 
> for example
> 
> echo "please dont reply this email" | mail -v -s 'this is a test mail'
> -r mailman at maillist.com mailman at maillist.com


So, are you saying that the message sent by the above command is held by
the list mailman at maillist.com because of implicit destination.

If that is the case, please go to the web admindb interface for the
mailman at maillist.com list, click on the message number and on the
resultan't page, select all the text in the "Message Headers:" box, copy
it and paste it into a post to this list so I can see it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gbcbooksmj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 26 23:31:21 2015
From: gbcbooksmj at gmail.com (MichaelLeung)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 12:31:21 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <567F6999.9010203@gmail.com>

HI Mark

please
Received: from iZ255b8oaekZ.yyyyyy.cn ([123.57.8.47])
     by vps2.xxxxx.eu.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id tBR4SIEB021591
     for &lt;gtexpress-support at yyyyyy.eu.org&gt;; Sun, 27 Dec 2015 
04:28:18 GMT
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 04:28:18 GMT
From: gtexpress-support at yyyyyy.eu.org
Message-Id: &lt;201512270428.tBR4SIEB021591 at vps2.xxxxx.eu.org&gt;

On 12/27/2015 12:20 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/26/2015 07:58 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>> i did not know the different between mail and sendmail
>>
>> i actually use mail , not sendmail, sorry
>>
>> for example
>>
>> echo "please dont reply this email" | mail -v -s 'this is a test mail'
>> -r mailman at maillist.com mailman at maillist.com
>
> So, are you saying that the message sent by the above command is held by
> the list mailman at maillist.com because of implicit destination.
>
> If that is the case, please go to the web admindb interface for the
> mailman at maillist.com list, click on the message number and on the
> resultan't page, select all the text in the "Message Headers:" box, copy
> it and paste it into a post to this list so I can see it.
>


From gbcbooksmj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 26 23:33:06 2015
From: gbcbooksmj at gmail.com (MichaelLeung)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 12:33:06 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com>

if you are convenience , i can create a newlist for test  and grand you 
as the adminitrator.

On 12/27/2015 12:20 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/26/2015 07:58 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>> i did not know the different between mail and sendmail
>>
>> i actually use mail , not sendmail, sorry
>>
>> for example
>>
>> echo "please dont reply this email" | mail -v -s 'this is a test mail'
>> -r mailman at maillist.com mailman at maillist.com
>
> So, are you saying that the message sent by the above command is held by
> the list mailman at maillist.com because of implicit destination.
>
> If that is the case, please go to the web admindb interface for the
> mailman at maillist.com list, click on the message number and on the
> resultan't page, select all the text in the "Message Headers:" box, copy
> it and paste it into a post to this list so I can see it.
>


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Dec 26 23:41:14 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 20:41:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F6999.9010203@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6999.9010203@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <567F6BEA.7020102@msapiro.net>

On 12/26/2015 08:31 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> HI Mark
> 
> please
> Received: from iZ255b8oaekZ.yyyyyy.cn ([123.57.8.47])
>     by vps2.xxxxx.eu.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id tBR4SIEB021591
>     for &lt;gtexpress-support at yyyyyy.eu.org&gt;; Sun, 27 Dec 2015
> 04:28:18 GMT
> Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 04:28:18 GMT
> From: gtexpress-support at yyyyyy.eu.org
> Message-Id: &lt;201512270428.tBR4SIEB021591 at vps2.xxxxx.eu.org&gt;


There is no To: or Subject: header in that message.


> On 12/27/2015 12:20 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 12/26/2015 07:58 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>>> i did not know the different between mail and sendmail
>>>
>>> i actually use mail , not sendmail, sorry
>>>
>>> for example
>>>
>>> echo "please dont reply this email" | mail -v -s 'this is a test mail'
>>> -r mailman at maillist.com mailman at maillist.com


If that message was sent by a command such as the above, that "mail"
command is behaving more like a "sendmail" command than like a "mail"
command.

The bottom line is you can't use that "mail" command in that way.

What output do the following commands produce:

ls -l `which mail`

ls -l `which sendmail`

ls -l `which mailx`

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Dec 26 23:42:57 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 20:42:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>

On 12/26/2015 08:33 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> if you are convenience , i can create a newlist for test  and grand you
> as the adminitrator.


The problem is not Mailman. The problem is the 'mail' command on your
system.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gbcbooksmj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 26 23:51:30 2015
From: gbcbooksmj at gmail.com (MichaelLeung)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 12:51:30 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com> <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com>

i have two sendmail server ,
i send a test mail from the same machine to these two server
one works fine ,
the other one 's is what we facing for .

On 12/27/2015 12:42 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/26/2015 08:33 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>> if you are convenience , i can create a newlist for test  and grand you
>> as the adminitrator.
>
> The problem is not Mailman. The problem is the 'mail' command on your
> system.
>


From gbcbooksmj at gmail.com  Sat Dec 26 23:55:48 2015
From: gbcbooksmj at gmail.com (MichaelLeung)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 12:55:48 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com> <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>
 <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <567F6F54.1040509@gmail.com>

and if i send this test mail to a speacific mail address, it can be 
received correctly .



On 12/27/2015 12:51 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> i have two sendmail server ,
> i send a test mail from the same machine to these two server
> one works fine ,
> the other one 's is what we facing for .
>
> On 12/27/2015 12:42 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 12/26/2015 08:33 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>>> if you are convenience , i can create a newlist for test  and grand you
>>> as the adminitrator.
>>
>> The problem is not Mailman. The problem is the 'mail' command on your
>> system.
>>
>


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Dec 27 00:00:16 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 21:00:16 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com> <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>
 <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <567F7060.1040401@msapiro.net>

On 12/26/2015 08:51 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> i have two sendmail server ,
> i send a test mail from the same machine to these two server
> one works fine ,
> the other one 's is what we facing for .
> 
> On 12/27/2015 12:42 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 12/26/2015 08:33 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>>> if you are convenience , i can create a newlist for test  and grand you
>>> as the adminitrator.
>>
>> The problem is not Mailman. The problem is the 'mail' command on your
>> system.


As I said, the problem is when you issue the command

> echo "please dont reply this email" | mail -v -s 'this is a test mail' -r mailman at maillist.com mailman at maillist.com

and it results in the message being held for implicit destination, it is
because that particular 'mail' command is not adding the Subject: and
To: headers to the message it creates. I.e., it is not doing what the
usual 'mail' command does.

Try doing

> echo "please dont reply this email" | mailx -v -s 'this is a test mail' -r mailman at maillist.com mailman at maillist.com

instead. I.e. use mailx rather than mail. also, as I asked before,

What output do the following commands produce:

ls -l `which mail`

ls -l `which sendmail`

ls -l `which mailx`

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gbcbooksmj at gmail.com  Sun Dec 27 00:19:57 2015
From: gbcbooksmj at gmail.com (MichaelLeung)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 13:19:57 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F7060.1040401@msapiro.net>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com> <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>
 <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com> <567F7060.1040401@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <567F74FD.50108@gmail.com>

i get confuse, how did it work on the other mailman server.

On 12/27/2015 01:00 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/26/2015 08:51 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>> i have two sendmail server ,
>> i send a test mail from the same machine to these two server
>> one works fine ,
>> the other one 's is what we facing for .
>>
>> On 12/27/2015 12:42 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>> On 12/26/2015 08:33 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>>>> if you are convenience , i can create a newlist for test  and grand you
>>>> as the adminitrator.
>>> The problem is not Mailman. The problem is the 'mail' command on your
>>> system.
>
> As I said, the problem is when you issue the command
>
>> echo "please dont reply this email" | mail -v -s 'this is a test mail' -r mailman at maillist.com mailman at maillist.com
> and it results in the message being held for implicit destination, it is
> because that particular 'mail' command is not adding the Subject: and
> To: headers to the message it creates. I.e., it is not doing what the
> usual 'mail' command does.
>
> Try doing
>
>> echo "please dont reply this email" | mailx -v -s 'this is a test mail' -r mailman at maillist.com mailman at maillist.com
> instead. I.e. use mailx rather than mail. also, as I asked before,
>
> What output do the following commands produce:
>
> ls -l `which mail`
>
> ls -l `which sendmail`
>
> ls -l `which mailx`
>


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Dec 27 00:23:19 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 21:23:19 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com> <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>
 <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <567F75C7.9030808@msapiro.net>

On 12/26/2015 08:51 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> i have two sendmail server ,
> i send a test mail from the same machine to these two server
> one works fine ,
> the other one 's is what we facing for .


If what you are saying here is you have two different machines and the
command

> echo "please dont reply this email" | mail -v -s 'this is a test mail' -r mailman at maillist.com mailman at maillist.com

produces a message which is accepted by Mailman when run on one machine,
but it produces a message which is held for implicit destination when
run on the other machine, that is because the 'mail' command is only
broken on the second machine.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gbcbooksmj at gmail.com  Sun Dec 27 00:31:23 2015
From: gbcbooksmj at gmail.com (MichaelLeung)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 13:31:23 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F75C7.9030808@msapiro.net>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com> <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>
 <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com> <567F75C7.9030808@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <567F77AB.2040601@gmail.com>

here is the list
i have three machine

1.first mailman server
2.sec mailman server
3. mail sender

all test mails are send from 3, the mail sender


On 12/27/2015 01:23 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/26/2015 08:51 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>> i have two sendmail server ,
>> i send a test mail from the same machine to these two server
>> one works fine ,
>> the other one 's is what we facing for .
>
> If what you are saying here is you have two different machines and the
> command
>
>> echo "please dont reply this email" | mail -v -s 'this is a test mail' -r mailman at maillist.com mailman at maillist.com
> produces a message which is accepted by Mailman when run on one machine,
> but it produces a message which is held for implicit destination when
> run on the other machine, that is because the 'mail' command is only
> broken on the second machine.
>


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Dec 27 00:41:57 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 21:41:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F77AB.2040601@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com> <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>
 <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com> <567F75C7.9030808@msapiro.net>
 <567F77AB.2040601@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <567F7A25.4080609@msapiro.net>

On 12/26/2015 09:31 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> here is the list
> i have three machine
> 
> 1.first mailman server
> 2.sec mailman server
> 3. mail sender
> 
> all test mails are send from 3, the mail sender


The 'mail' command on 3 is broken. The machine (1 or 2) which accepts
the mail has the list's  Privacy options... -> Recipient filters ->
require_explicit_destination set to No and the other machine has it set
to Yes.

If you wish to pursue the broken mail command what  output do the
following commands produce on machine 3:

ls -l `which mail`

ls -l `which sendmail`

ls -l `which mailx`

and if any of those outputs is a symlink such as

/usr/bin/mail -> /etc/alternatives/mail

what does

ls -l /etc/alternatives/mail

(i.e. ls -l of the target of the symlink) produce?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Dec 27 00:42:52 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 21:42:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F74FD.50108@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com> <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>
 <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com> <567F7060.1040401@msapiro.net>
 <567F74FD.50108@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <567F7A5C.7060401@msapiro.net>

On 12/26/2015 09:19 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> i get confuse, how did it work on the other mailman server.

Do you have 1) two different Mailman servers one of which accepts the
message an one of which doesn't or do you have 2) two different machines
from which you send the message to the same mailman server or do you
perhaps have 3) two different machines from which you send the message
to two different mailman servers?

if 1) it is because the Mailman list which accepts the message has its
Privacy options... -> Recipient filters -> require_explicit_destination
set to No and the other list has it set to Yes.

if 2) it is because the 'mail' command on the non-working machine is broken.

if 3) it is one of those two reasons.

Please answer these questions:

1) on how many different machines do you run the mail command? If more
than one, does it work from one and not another?

2) how many mailman lists/servers are there? If more than one, does it
work on one and not another?

on the machine(s) on which you run the mail command,


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Dec 27 00:45:48 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 21:45:48 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F7A5C.7060401@msapiro.net>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com> <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>
 <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com> <567F7060.1040401@msapiro.net>
 <567F74FD.50108@gmail.com> <567F7A5C.7060401@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <567F7B0C.2070900@msapiro.net>

On 12/26/2015 09:42 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/26/2015 09:19 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>> i get confuse, how did it work on the other mailman server.
> 
> Do you have 1) two different Mailman servers one of which accepts the
> message an one of which doesn't or do you have 2) two different machines
> from which you send the message to the same mailman server or do you
> perhaps have 3) two different machines from which you send the message
> to two different mailman servers?
> 
> if 1) it is because the Mailman list which accepts the message has its
> Privacy options... -> Recipient filters -> require_explicit_destination
> set to No and the other list has it set to Yes.
> 
> if 2) it is because the 'mail' command on the non-working machine is broken.
> 
> if 3) it is one of those two reasons.
> 
> Please answer these questions:
> 
> 1) on how many different machines do you run the mail command? If more
> than one, does it work from one and not another?
> 
> 2) how many mailman lists/servers are there? If more than one, does it
> work on one and not another?
> 
> on the machine(s) on which you run the mail command,
> 
> 


Ignore the above incomplete message. The relevant message is
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080249.html>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gbcbooksmj at gmail.com  Sun Dec 27 01:22:18 2015
From: gbcbooksmj at gmail.com (MichaelLeung)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 14:22:18 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F7B0C.2070900@msapiro.net>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com> <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>
 <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com> <567F7060.1040401@msapiro.net>
 <567F74FD.50108@gmail.com> <567F7A5C.7060401@msapiro.net>
 <567F7B0C.2070900@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <567F839A.2020603@gmail.com>

as i said

i have three machines
two are mailman servers,
one is responsible for sending mail

i send mails to these from the third machine to that two mailman 
servers, one accepted the message , but the other one didnot.

On 12/27/2015 01:45 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/26/2015 09:42 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 12/26/2015 09:19 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>>> i get confuse, how did it work on the other mailman server.
>> Do you have 1) two different Mailman servers one of which accepts the
>> message an one of which doesn't or do you have 2) two different machines
>> from which you send the message to the same mailman server or do you
>> perhaps have 3) two different machines from which you send the message
>> to two different mailman servers?
>>
>> if 1) it is because the Mailman list which accepts the message has its
>> Privacy options... -> Recipient filters -> require_explicit_destination
>> set to No and the other list has it set to Yes.
>>
>> if 2) it is because the 'mail' command on the non-working machine is broken.
>>
>> if 3) it is one of those two reasons.
>>
>> Please answer these questions:
>>
>> 1) on how many different machines do you run the mail command? If more
>> than one, does it work from one and not another?
>>
>> 2) how many mailman lists/servers are there? If more than one, does it
>> work on one and not another?
>>
>> on the machine(s) on which you run the mail command,
>>
>>
>
> Ignore the above incomplete message. The relevant message is
> <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080249.html>
>


From gbcbooksmj at gmail.com  Sun Dec 27 03:37:44 2015
From: gbcbooksmj at gmail.com (MichaelLeung)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 16:37:44 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F839A.2020603@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com> <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>
 <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com> <567F7060.1040401@msapiro.net>
 <567F74FD.50108@gmail.com> <567F7A5C.7060401@msapiro.net>
 <567F7B0C.2070900@msapiro.net> <567F839A.2020603@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <567FA358.2010501@gmail.com>

i think is related to the sender address

  as i use -r to speacified a maillist address as the sender address and 
send this mail to this maillist , Mailman will report the issue , which 
mean while , if the from address is differen to recipient address, 
mailman will accept it.


On 12/27/2015 02:22 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> as i said
>
> i have three machines
> two are mailman servers,
> one is responsible for sending mail
>
> i send mails to these from the third machine to that two mailman 
> servers, one accepted the message , but the other one didnot.
>
> On 12/27/2015 01:45 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 12/26/2015 09:42 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>> On 12/26/2015 09:19 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>>>> i get confuse, how did it work on the other mailman server.
>>> Do you have 1) two different Mailman servers one of which accepts the
>>> message an one of which doesn't or do you have 2) two different 
>>> machines
>>> from which you send the message to the same mailman server or do you
>>> perhaps have 3) two different machines from which you send the message
>>> to two different mailman servers?
>>>
>>> if 1) it is because the Mailman list which accepts the message has its
>>> Privacy options... -> Recipient filters -> require_explicit_destination
>>> set to No and the other list has it set to Yes.
>>>
>>> if 2) it is because the 'mail' command on the non-working machine is 
>>> broken.
>>>
>>> if 3) it is one of those two reasons.
>>>
>>> Please answer these questions:
>>>
>>> 1) on how many different machines do you run the mail command? If more
>>> than one, does it work from one and not another?
>>>
>>> 2) how many mailman lists/servers are there? If more than one, does it
>>> work on one and not another?
>>>
>>> on the machine(s) on which you run the mail command,
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Ignore the above incomplete message. The relevant message is
>> <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080249.html> 
>>
>>
>


From bsfinkel at att.net  Sun Dec 27 11:05:31 2015
From: bsfinkel at att.net (Barry S. Finkel)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:05:31 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567F74FD.50108@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com> <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>
 <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com> <567F7060.1040401@msapiro.net>
 <567F74FD.50108@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56800C4B.8080905@att.net>

Mack Sapiro wrote in response to MichaelLeung
:
> What output do the following commands produce:
>
> ls -l `which mail`
>
> ls -l `which sendmail`
>
> ls -l `which mailx`

Michael, you have not given us the output of those commands
(unless I missed something in the dialog between you and Mark).
And also, what on what type of Unix box are you issuing the
"mail" command?

--Barry Finkel


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Dec 27 12:42:02 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 09:42:02 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <567FA358.2010501@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com> <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>
 <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com> <567F7060.1040401@msapiro.net>
 <567F74FD.50108@gmail.com> <567F7A5C.7060401@msapiro.net>
 <567F7B0C.2070900@msapiro.net> <567F839A.2020603@gmail.com>
 <567FA358.2010501@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <568022EA.5050108@msapiro.net>

On 12/27/2015 12:37 AM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> i think is related to the sender address
> 
>  as i use -r to speacified a maillist address as the sender address and
> send this mail to this maillist , Mailman will report the issue , which
> mean while , if the from address is differen to recipient address,
> mailman will accept it.


I am really trying to help you, but it is difficult when you don't
answer my questions.

Please see the post at
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080249.html>
and answer the questions in that post.

Also please do both of the following commands exactly as shown:

> echo "test message 1" | mail -s 'test mail 1' -r mark at msapiro.net mark at msapiro.net

> echo "test message 2" | mail -s 'test mail 2' mark at msapiro.net

When you have done the above commands and answered the questions in the
post at
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080249.html>,
I will respond further.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gbcbooksmj at gmail.com  Sun Dec 27 21:42:02 2015
From: gbcbooksmj at gmail.com (MichaelLeung)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:42:02 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <568022EA.5050108@msapiro.net>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com> <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>
 <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com> <567F7060.1040401@msapiro.net>
 <567F74FD.50108@gmail.com> <567F7A5C.7060401@msapiro.net>
 <567F7B0C.2070900@msapiro.net> <567F839A.2020603@gmail.com>
 <567FA358.2010501@gmail.com> <568022EA.5050108@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <5680A17A.4030408@gmail.com>

hi all
sorry , i think i miss the previous email

here is the output
ls -l `which mail`
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 22 12? 18 11:13 /bin/mail -> /etc/alternatives/mail

ls -l `which sendmail`
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 12? 18 11:12 /usr/sbin/sendmail -> 
/etc/alternatives/mta

  ls -l `which mailx`
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 390720 12? 17  2014 /bin/mailx

to Barry

i issue mail command on a Centos 6.5 which the mail version is 
mailx-12.4-8.el6_6.x86_64

and ,i did a further test last night ,

mailman did not accept those emails set their From address as the 
maillist address.

which means , for example , if my maillist address is abc at mailman.com
then mailman server will not accept those emails sent from 
abc at mailman.com to abc at mailman.com

and if abc at aliase.com is a aliase of abc at mailman.com

mailman server can accept those emails sent from abc at aliase.com to 
abc at mailman.com

even aliase.com and mailman.com are resolved to a same IP address.






On 12/28/2015 01:42 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/27/2015 12:37 AM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>> i think is related to the sender address
>>
>>   as i use -r to speacified a maillist address as the sender address and
>> send this mail to this maillist , Mailman will report the issue , which
>> mean while , if the from address is differen to recipient address,
>> mailman will accept it.
>
> I am really trying to help you, but it is difficult when you don't
> answer my questions.
>
> Please see the post at
> <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080249.html>
> and answer the questions in that post.
>
> Also please do both of the following commands exactly as shown:
>
>> echo "test message 1" | mail -s 'test mail 1' -r mark at msapiro.net mark at msapiro.net
>> echo "test message 2" | mail -s 'test mail 2' mark at msapiro.net
> When you have done the above commands and answered the questions in the
> post at
> <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080249.html>,
> I will respond further.
>


From gbcbooksmj at gmail.com  Sun Dec 27 21:46:21 2015
From: gbcbooksmj at gmail.com (MichaelLeung)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:46:21 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <5680A17A.4030408@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com> <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>
 <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com> <567F7060.1040401@msapiro.net>
 <567F74FD.50108@gmail.com> <567F7A5C.7060401@msapiro.net>
 <567F7B0C.2070900@msapiro.net> <567F839A.2020603@gmail.com>
 <567FA358.2010501@gmail.com> <568022EA.5050108@msapiro.net>
 <5680A17A.4030408@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5680A27D.5030705@gmail.com>

so , i think the root cause relate to the if mailman does support 
spoofing sender or not ,

but from my another instance mailman server , the answer should be YES, 
cause this instance mailman server can accept mail sent from 
abc at mailman.com to abc at mailman.com

On 12/28/2015 10:42 AM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> hi all
> sorry , i think i miss the previous email
>
> here is the output
> ls -l `which mail`
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 22 12? 18 11:13 /bin/mail -> 
> /etc/alternatives/mail
>
> ls -l `which sendmail`
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 12? 18 11:12 /usr/sbin/sendmail -> 
> /etc/alternatives/mta
>
>  ls -l `which mailx`
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 390720 12? 17  2014 /bin/mailx
>
> to Barry
>
> i issue mail command on a Centos 6.5 which the mail version is 
> mailx-12.4-8.el6_6.x86_64
>
> and ,i did a further test last night ,
>
> mailman did not accept those emails set their From address as the 
> maillist address.
>
> which means , for example , if my maillist address is abc at mailman.com
> then mailman server will not accept those emails sent from 
> abc at mailman.com to abc at mailman.com
>
> and if abc at aliase.com is a aliase of abc at mailman.com
>
> mailman server can accept those emails sent from abc at aliase.com to 
> abc at mailman.com
>
> even aliase.com and mailman.com are resolved to a same IP address.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12/28/2015 01:42 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 12/27/2015 12:37 AM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>>> i think is related to the sender address
>>>
>>>   as i use -r to speacified a maillist address as the sender address 
>>> and
>>> send this mail to this maillist , Mailman will report the issue , which
>>> mean while , if the from address is differen to recipient address,
>>> mailman will accept it.
>>
>> I am really trying to help you, but it is difficult when you don't
>> answer my questions.
>>
>> Please see the post at
>> <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080249.html> 
>>
>> and answer the questions in that post.
>>
>> Also please do both of the following commands exactly as shown:
>>
>>> echo "test message 1" | mail -s 'test mail 1' -r mark at msapiro.net 
>>> mark at msapiro.net
>>> echo "test message 2" | mail -s 'test mail 2' mark at msapiro.net
>> When you have done the above commands and answered the questions in the
>> post at
>> <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080249.html>, 
>>
>> I will respond further.
>>
>


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Dec 27 22:17:09 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:17:09 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <5680A17A.4030408@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com> <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>
 <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com> <567F7060.1040401@msapiro.net>
 <567F74FD.50108@gmail.com> <567F7A5C.7060401@msapiro.net>
 <567F7B0C.2070900@msapiro.net> <567F839A.2020603@gmail.com>
 <567FA358.2010501@gmail.com> <568022EA.5050108@msapiro.net>
 <5680A17A.4030408@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5680A9B5.6020807@msapiro.net>

On 12/27/2015 06:42 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> hi all
> sorry , i think i miss the previous email
> 
> here is the output
> ls -l `which mail`
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 22 12? 18 11:13 /bin/mail -> /etc/alternatives/mail
> 
> ls -l `which sendmail`
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 12? 18 11:12 /usr/sbin/sendmail ->
> /etc/alternatives/mta
> 
>  ls -l `which mailx`
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 390720 12? 17  2014 /bin/mailx


You are still not paying attention.

I also asked that if any of those results were symlinks that you do 'ls
-l' on the target. I.e. in this case

ls -l /etc/alternatives/mail

and

ls -l /etc/alternatives/mta

Further, I asked you

> Also please do both of the following commands exactly as shown:
>
> echo "test message 1" | mail -s 'test mail 1' -r mark at msapiro.net mark at msapiro.net
> echo "test message 2" | mail -s 'test mail 2' mark at msapiro.net


If you have done that, I didn't get the resultant mail.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Dec 27 22:23:35 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:23:35 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <5680A27D.5030705@gmail.com>
References: <567E3D64.30608@gmail.com> <567E83DF.2070907@gmail.com>
 <567E8E52.4050602@gmail.com> <567F39E3.2080303@att.net>
 <567F4BB8.8010107@gmail.com> <567F509A.9030806@msapiro.net>
 <567F5C55.3070909@gmail.com> <567F6096.2010909@msapiro.net>
 <567F61F4.4070802@gmail.com> <567F66F1.9090600@msapiro.net>
 <567F6A02.10805@gmail.com> <567F6C51.5050900@msapiro.net>
 <567F6E52.6040605@gmail.com> <567F7060.1040401@msapiro.net>
 <567F74FD.50108@gmail.com> <567F7A5C.7060401@msapiro.net>
 <567F7B0C.2070900@msapiro.net> <567F839A.2020603@gmail.com>
 <567FA358.2010501@gmail.com> <568022EA.5050108@msapiro.net>
 <5680A17A.4030408@gmail.com> <5680A27D.5030705@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5680AB37.7040900@msapiro.net>

On 12/27/2015 06:46 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> so , i think the root cause relate to the if mailman does support
> spoofing sender or not ,
> 
> but from my another instance mailman server , the answer should be YES,
> cause this instance mailman server can accept mail sent from
> abc at mailman.com to abc at mailman.com


See the posts at
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080234.html>
- the second paragraph following the first quote and
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080249.html>
- the first paragraph following the quote.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Dec 27 23:10:09 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 20:10:09 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <5680A9B5.6020807@msapiro.net>
References: <5680A9B5.6020807@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <5680B621.7000501@msapiro.net>

I wrote:

> Further, I asked you
> 
>> Also please do both of the following commands exactly as shown:
>>
>> echo "test message 1" | mail -s 'test mail 1' -r mark at msapiro.net mark at msapiro.net
>> echo "test message 2" | mail -s 'test mail 2' mark at msapiro.net
> 
> 
> If you have done that, I didn't get the resultant mail.


OK, I got the mails and they both have the expected To: and Subject:
headers.

So, if you are certain that the issue is 'Message has implicit
destination', then I think the issue is that the mail to the list that
doesn't work is not addressed to the address that the list thinks is the
list address. I.e. it is addressed to some other address that winds up
at that list by aliasing/forwarding.

Go to the list's web admin interface and look at Privacy options... ->
Recipient filters. Read that page and also the pages at the (Details for
require_explicit_destination) and (Details for acceptable_aliases) links.
	
That should explain what's happening and what you can do about it.

If on the other hand, the message is held for something like "post by
non-member ..." look at Privacy options... -> Sender filters.

I am done for today and going fishing tomorrow. I'll be back here in
about 20 hours.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gbcbooksmj at gmail.com  Mon Dec 28 01:11:57 2015
From: gbcbooksmj at gmail.com (MichaelLeung)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 14:11:57 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <5680B621.7000501@msapiro.net>
References: <5680A9B5.6020807@msapiro.net> <5680B621.7000501@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <5680D2AD.5090703@gmail.com>

please tell me what did you see the To: and the Subject:header

i issue these commands

echo "test message 1" | mail -s 'test mail 1' -r user1 at gtexrxxxx.eu.org user1 at gtexrxxxx.eu.org

echo "test message 2" | mail -s 'test mail 2' user1 at gtexrxxxx.eu.org

i got test mail 2 as normal ,but test mail 1 did not have To:and 
Subject:header

On 12/28/2015 12:10 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> I wrote:
>
>> Further, I asked you
>>
>>> Also please do both of the following commands exactly as shown:
>>>
>>> echo "test message 1" | mail -s 'test mail 1' -r mark at msapiro.net mark at msapiro.net
>>> echo "test message 2" | mail -s 'test mail 2' mark at msapiro.net
>>
>> If you have done that, I didn't get the resultant mail.
>
> OK, I got the mails and they both have the expected To: and Subject:
> headers.
>
> So, if you are certain that the issue is 'Message has implicit
> destination', then I think the issue is that the mail to the list that
> doesn't work is not addressed to the address that the list thinks is the
> list address. I.e. it is addressed to some other address that winds up
> at that list by aliasing/forwarding.
>
> Go to the list's web admin interface and look at Privacy options... ->
> Recipient filters. Read that page and also the pages at the (Details for
> require_explicit_destination) and (Details for acceptable_aliases) links.
> 	
> That should explain what's happening and what you can do about it.
>
> If on the other hand, the message is held for something like "post by
> non-member ..." look at Privacy options... -> Sender filters.
>
> I am done for today and going fishing tomorrow. I'll be back here in
> about 20 hours.
>


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec 28 22:58:32 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 19:58:32 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <5680D2AD.5090703@gmail.com>
References: <5680A9B5.6020807@msapiro.net> <5680B621.7000501@msapiro.net>
 <5680D2AD.5090703@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <568204E8.4030804@msapiro.net>

On 12/27/2015 10:11 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> please tell me what did you see the To: and the Subject:header


Look at the raw message or at least the raw message headers. You can do
this with, e.g., less or vi on the mailbox containing the message or
with any mail client that will show you the raw message or the complete
headers.

Here are the messages I received from you minus some headers such as
Received:, Delivered-To: and MailScanner headers added by MTAs in transit.

message sent by echo "test message 1" | mail -s 'test mail 1' -r mark@
msapiro.net mark at msapiro.net
----------------------------------------------------------
Return-Path: <mark at msapiro.net>
Received: (from root at localhost)
	by ali.gbcbooks.eu.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id tBS3e95u030672
	for mark at msapiro.net; Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:40:09 +0800
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:40:09 +0800
From: mark at msapiro.net
To: mark at msapiro.net
Subject: test mail 1
Message-ID: <5680af19.5TMi+2OLTZoLTjxO%mark at msapiro.net>
User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.4 7/29/08
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

test message 1
----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: is set by the final MTA to the envelope sender set by the
-r option. The message contains both Subject: from the -s option and To:
with the recipients address. The From: header is also set freom the -r
option


message sent by echo "test message 2" | mail -s 'test mail 2'
mark at msapiro.net
----------------------------------------------------------
Return-Path: <root at ali.gbcbooks.eu.org>
Received: (from root at localhost)
	by ali.gbcbooks.eu.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id tBS3e9io030675
	for mark at msapiro.net; Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:40:09 +0800
From: root <root at ali.gbcbooks.eu.org>
Message-Id: <201512280340.tBS3e9io030675 at ali.gbcbooks.eu.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:40:09 +0800
To: mark at msapiro.net
Subject: test mail 2
User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.4 7/29/08
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

test message 2
----------------------------------------------------------

This message is the same except the From: and Return-Path: are the
user at host that sent it because there is no -r option.


> i issue these commands
> 
> echo "test message 1" | mail -s 'test mail 1' -r user1 at gtexrxxxx.eu.org
> user1 at gtexrxxxx.eu.org
> 
> echo "test message 2" | mail -s 'test mail 2' user1 at gtexrxxxx.eu.org
> 
> i got test mail 2 as normal ,but test mail 1 did not have To:and
> Subject:header


And how did you look at it to determine that? The messages you sent to
me clearly do have appropriate To: and Subject: headers put there by
your mailx User-Agent:

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gbcbooksmj at gmail.com  Tue Dec 29 01:16:22 2015
From: gbcbooksmj at gmail.com (MichaelLeung)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:16:22 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <568204E8.4030804@msapiro.net>
References: <5680A9B5.6020807@msapiro.net> <5680B621.7000501@msapiro.net>
 <5680D2AD.5090703@gmail.com> <568204E8.4030804@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56822536.1020401@gmail.com>

Hi Mark

normally , dovecot service will save a copy of mail that i sent , but , 
mailx won't ,

i was using mailx to sent those test mails to you , so , there were no 
raw message left in my mail server

from the message that you received , there is nothing wrong with the 
spoofing mail(test mail 1)

remeber i said i have two mail servers and one client machine,

i sent those test mail to these two mail servers , one accept test mails 
just did as yours , another one (the one are fixing ), lost the To: and 
subject:header.

i start to believe that is my sendmail service's problem.

On 12/29/2015 11:58 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 12/27/2015 10:11 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
>> please tell me what did you see the To: and the Subject:header
>
> Look at the raw message or at least the raw message headers. You can do
> this with, e.g., less or vi on the mailbox containing the message or
> with any mail client that will show you the raw message or the complete
> headers.
>
> Here are the messages I received from you minus some headers such as
> Received:, Delivered-To: and MailScanner headers added by MTAs in transit.
>
> message sent by echo "test message 1" | mail -s 'test mail 1' -r mark@
> msapiro.net mark at msapiro.net
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Return-Path: <mark at msapiro.net>
> Received: (from root at localhost)
> 	by ali.gbcbooks.eu.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id tBS3e95u030672
> 	for mark at msapiro.net; Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:40:09 +0800
> Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:40:09 +0800
> From: mark at msapiro.net
> To: mark at msapiro.net
> Subject: test mail 1
> Message-ID: <5680af19.5TMi+2OLTZoLTjxO%mark at msapiro.net>
> User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.4 7/29/08
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> test message 1
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Return-Path: is set by the final MTA to the envelope sender set by the
> -r option. The message contains both Subject: from the -s option and To:
> with the recipients address. The From: header is also set freom the -r
> option
>
>
> message sent by echo "test message 2" | mail -s 'test mail 2'
> mark at msapiro.net
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Return-Path: <root at ali.gbcbooks.eu.org>
> Received: (from root at localhost)
> 	by ali.gbcbooks.eu.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id tBS3e9io030675
> 	for mark at msapiro.net; Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:40:09 +0800
> From: root <root at ali.gbcbooks.eu.org>
> Message-Id: <201512280340.tBS3e9io030675 at ali.gbcbooks.eu.org>
> Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:40:09 +0800
> To: mark at msapiro.net
> Subject: test mail 2
> User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.4 7/29/08
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> test message 2
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> This message is the same except the From: and Return-Path: are the
> user at host that sent it because there is no -r option.
>
>
>> i issue these commands
>>
>> echo "test message 1" | mail -s 'test mail 1' -r user1 at gtexrxxxx.eu.org
>> user1 at gtexrxxxx.eu.org
>>
>> echo "test message 2" | mail -s 'test mail 2' user1 at gtexrxxxx.eu.org
>>
>> i got test mail 2 as normal ,but test mail 1 did not have To:and
>> Subject:header
>
> And how did you look at it to determine that? The messages you sent to
> me clearly do have appropriate To: and Subject: headers put there by
> your mailx User-Agent:
>


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 29 12:45:46 2015
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 09:45:46 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mails send from sendmail with commandline to
 mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'
In-Reply-To: <56822536.1020401@gmail.com>
References: <5680A9B5.6020807@msapiro.net> <5680B621.7000501@msapiro.net>
 <5680D2AD.5090703@gmail.com> <568204E8.4030804@msapiro.net>
 <56822536.1020401@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5682C6CA.2080207@msapiro.net>

On 12/28/2015 10:16 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:
> 
> normally , dovecot service will save a copy of mail that i sent , but ,
> mailx won't ,


You can always send yourself a 'Bcc' with the -b option. However, I can
assure you that your 'Heirloom mailx 12.4 7/29/08' is putting To: and
Subject: headers in the mail it creates.


> i sent those test mail to these two mail servers , one accept test mails
> just did as yours , another one (the one are fixing ), lost the To: and
> subject:header.
> 
> i start to believe that is my sendmail service's problem.


I have never heard of any MTA removing the Subject: header from a
message. Also, while MTAs can be configured to rewrite To: headers under
some circumstances, they don't generally remove them.

Further, you have said that if you send the mail from Thunderbird, it
works. If the sendmail MTA were removing To: and Subject: headers, it
would probably remove them from the Thunderbird mail as well.

You did at one point say something about aliasing or forwarding. Perhaps
it is this process which is creating a new message with missing headers.

This thread has drifted far from Mailman. To bring it back to focus, on
the Mailman list on which you have issues with implicit destination, go
to the web admin interface for that list and go to the Privacy
options... -> Recipient filters page and set
require_explicit_destination to No. This will avoid that hold.

If you have other issues with Mailman, please try to be very specific
about what you are doing and what the desired and actual results are,
and we will do our best to help you. Keep in mind that if you have
unusual or non-standard infrastructure surrounding your mail delivery,
we need very specific information about it, otherwise we can't even
guess what might be happening.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan