From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul  1 01:43:40 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 16:43:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] custom message for banned address
In-Reply-To: <53B1D9B0.4080309@msapiro.net>
References: <53B1D9B0.4080309@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <53B1F62C.408@msapiro.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> It is possible to globally change the messages without modifying code,
> by creating the path and file messages/en/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
> containing something like the attached edited for your desired messages

Sorry, content filtering removed the attachment. This one should make it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
-------------- next part --------------
#: Mailman/Cgi/subscribe.py:206
msgid ""
"The email address you supplied is banned from this\n"
"        mailing list.  If you think this restriction is erroneous, please\n"
"        contact the list owners at %(listowner)s."
msgstr ""
"Put your desired message lines here.\n"
"You can include %(listowner)s to be replaced with the\n"
"list-owner email address."

#: Mailman/Commands/cmd_subscribe.py:113
msgid ""
"The email address you supplied is banned from this mailing list.\n"
"If you think this restriction is erroneous, please contact the list\n"
"owners at %(listowner)s."
msgstr ""
"Put your desired message lines here.\n"
"You can include %(listowner)s to be replaced with the\n"
"list-owner email address."


From heller at deepsoft.com  Tue Jul  1 13:50:10 2014
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 07:50:10 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about rejection messages.
Message-ID: <201407011150.s61BoAW3011468@sharky2.deepsoft.com>

I am the site admin of a server that hosts a bunch of Mailman lists and on the 
1st of the month Mailman sends out its monthly reminder messages.  Some of 
these messages are bouncing.  Some are *obviously* for people who have changed 
E-Mail providers (the bunces say 'User Unknown' or 'Mailbox full').  But some 
have 'odd' rejection reasons and I wonder what it really going on.

Comcast is bouncing with the message:
    reason: 554 Transaction Failed Spam Message not queued.
    
Is this Comcast's way of 'hiding' the fact that the E-Mail address is no 
longer valid? That is, does Comcast consider E-Mail to unknown users spam?


-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933 / heller at deepsoft.com
Deepwoods Software        -- http://www.deepsoft.com/
()  ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   -- against proprietary attachments


                                        

From mlnospam at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  1 14:46:07 2014
From: mlnospam at yahoo.com (ML mail)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 05:46:07 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Installing v3.0.0b4 on Debian 7
In-Reply-To: <53B171FF.1090305@msapiro.net>
References: <1404074141.673.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <53B171FF.1090305@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1404218767.33107.YahooMailNeo@web162502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Thanks, I used now pip install to install the zope interface and it worked, I had the debian package's version installed and that did not work well along.




On Monday, June 30, 2014 4:20 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
On 06/29/2014 01:35 PM, ML mail wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I am trying to install version 3.0.0b4 of Mailman on Debian 7 and for that purpose I took the original tar.gz file and ran:
> 
> sudo python setup.py install
> 
> There was an issue with the version of zope.interface which I resolved by running the following command:
> 
> sudo pip install -U zope.interface
> 
> Now Mailman got correctly installed but when doesn't seem to run. This is the output when I run the mailman command on its own:


I saw a similar issue at one point. I *think* I fixed it by completely
removing zope.interface and rerunning python setup.py install, letting
it install the zope.interface package it wanted.

That said, I'm not really working on MM 3 at this point and most of the
MM 3 folks are better found on mailman-developers at python.org.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>? ? ? ? The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California? ? better use your sense - B. Dylan



------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/mlnospam%40yahoo.com


From mlnospam at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  1 14:49:29 2014
From: mlnospam at yahoo.com (ML mail)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 05:49:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman v3 how to create new user
Message-ID: <1404218969.6068.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hi,

I installed Mailman 3 and Postorius all working fine so far but I have a question regarding user management. I got one admin user created while running the "syncdb" command in Django, but how do I now create additional users? 


Ideally I would like one "domain admin" user who can manage mailing lists for a specific domain, is this possible?


Regards,
ML


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jul  1 15:24:18 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2014 22:24:18 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Question about rejection messages.
In-Reply-To: <201407011150.s61BoAW3011468@sharky2.deepsoft.com>
References: <201407011150.s61BoAW3011468@sharky2.deepsoft.com>
Message-ID: <87mwctus8t.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Robert Heller writes:

 > Comcast is bouncing with the message:
 >     reason: 554 Transaction Failed Spam Message not queued.
 >     
 > Is this Comcast's way of 'hiding' the fact that the E-Mail address
 > is no longer valid? That is, does Comcast consider E-Mail to
 > unknown users spam?

How would anybody except a Comcast postmaster know?  If they're doing
something that antisocial, would they admit it publicly?  To diagnose,
I suggest investigating questions like the following:

  - Are other Comcast addresses being accepted for delivery?
  - Is it concentrated on a particular list (vs. there is a subset of
    addresses being bounced that way for all lists)?
  - Are any of them members you recognize as being recently active?
  - Are any Comcast addresses bouncing as non-existent?  (Note that
    RFC 5321 itself gives "no valid recipients" as a reason for a 554
    status return, vs. 550, which is a generic "I can't/won't do that"
    status.)

If you have strong evidence that it's true (the answers are yes, no,
no, and no), my suggestion is to post to your lists explaining the
situation and your conclusion that such failures mean a non-existent
subscriber, and that to protect your lists from being put on a Comcast
known spammer list, you are disabling/unsubscribing all such addresses
immediately.  Direct those suffering from collateral damage to talk to
their ISP about mending its evil ways (after reinstating them, of
course).



From roel at wagenaar.nu  Tue Jul  1 16:08:40 2014
From: roel at wagenaar.nu (Roel Wagenaar)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 16:08:40 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] We're sorry, we hit a bug!
Message-ID: <mpro.n81dyg1j1bsxc02sz@wagenaar.nu>

L.S.

	Bug in Mailman version 2.1.15

	We're sorry, we hit a bug!

	Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing 	of
traceback and other system information has been explicitly 			inhibited, but the
webmaster can find this information in the 			Mailman error logs. 


The above message shows up on the web pages, unfortunately the last log written
to is qrunner, error is empty, so no info on what it is about.

The last thing changed is the adres of the main pages.

It looks like the mail-system is not affected, any idea what is going on?

Would like to show some logging, but it simply is not there.

-- 
Roel Wagenaar,

Linux-User #469851 with the Linux Counter; http://linuxcounter.net/

Antw.: Omdat het de volgorde verstoord waarin mensen tekst lezen.
Vraag: Waarom is top-posting een slechte gewoonte?
Antw.: Top-posting.
Vraag: Wat is het meest ergerlijke in e-mail?

Why be difficult, when with a bit of effort, you can be impossible?

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul  1 17:03:28 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2014 08:03:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] We're sorry, we hit a bug!
In-Reply-To: <mpro.n81dyg1j1bsxc02sz@wagenaar.nu>
References: <mpro.n81dyg1j1bsxc02sz@wagenaar.nu>
Message-ID: <53B2CDC0.1090409@msapiro.net>

On 07/01/2014 07:08 AM, Roel Wagenaar wrote:
> L.S.
> 
> 	Bug in Mailman version 2.1.15
> 
> 	We're sorry, we hit a bug!
> 
> 	Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing 	of
> traceback and other system information has been explicitly 			inhibited, but the
> webmaster can find this information in the 			Mailman error logs. 
> 
> 
> The above message shows up on the web pages, unfortunately the last log written
> to is qrunner, error is empty, so no info on what it is about.


The above message indicates the traceback was written to some 'error'
log, just not the one you're looking at.

You can always edit (temporarily) Mailman's scripts/driver and at line
33 change

STEALTH_MODE = 1

to

STEALTH_MODE = 0

and that will allow the traceback and other diagnostic info to be
displayed instead of the "We're sorry, we hit a bug!" message.


> Would like to show some logging, but it simply is not there.


It was successfully written to an 'error' log somewhere or the "We're
sorry, we hit a bug!" message would say:

"Mailman experienced a very low level failure and could not even
generate a useful traceback for you.  Please report this to the Mailman
administrator at this site."

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From roel at wagenaar.nu  Tue Jul  1 17:33:19 2014
From: roel at wagenaar.nu (Roel Wagenaar)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 17:33:19 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] We're sorry, we hit a bug!
In-Reply-To: <53B2CDC0.1090409@msapiro.net>
References: <mpro.n81dyg1j1bsxc02sz@wagenaar.nu> <53B2CDC0.1090409@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <mpro.n81hvj1ubbxhc02sz@wagenaar.nu>

Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:


> The above message indicates the traceback was written to some 'error' log,
> just not the one you're looking at.
> 
> You can always edit (temporarily) Mailman's scripts/driver and at line 33
> change
> 
> STEALTH_MODE = 1
> 
> to
> 
> STEALTH_MODE = 0
> 
> and that will allow the traceback and other diagnostic info to be displayed
> instead of the "We're sorry, we hit a bug!" message.
> 
> 
> > Would like to show some logging, but it simply is not there.
> 
> 
> It was successfully written to an 'error' log somewhere or the "We're sorry,
> we hit a bug!" message would say:
> 
> "Mailman experienced a very low level failure and could not even generate a
> useful traceback for you.  Please report this to the Mailman administrator at
> this site."
> 

Thanks Mark, the page is showing that the log location was not writeable, must
be the bug.

Resetting the LOG_DIR to default saved me.

Apologies for the noise.

-- 
Roel Wagenaar,

Linux-User #469851 with the Linux Counter; http://linuxcounter.net/

Antw.: Omdat het de volgorde verstoord waarin mensen tekst lezen.
Vraag: Waarom is top-posting een slechte gewoonte?
Antw.: Top-posting.
Vraag: Wat is het meest ergerlijke in e-mail?

Ignorence is when you don't know anything and somebody finds out.

From bsfinkel at att.net  Tue Jul  1 17:42:13 2014
From: bsfinkel at att.net (Barry S. Finkel)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2014 10:42:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about rejection messages.
In-Reply-To: <201407011150.s61BoAW3011468@sharky2.deepsoft.com>
References: <201407011150.s61BoAW3011468@sharky2.deepsoft.com>
Message-ID: <53B2D6D5.3030008@att.net>

On 7/1/2014 6:50 AM, Robert Heller wrote:
> I am the site admin of a server that hosts a bunch of Mailman lists and on the
> 1st of the month Mailman sends out its monthly reminder messages.  Some of
> these messages are bouncing.  Some are *obviously* for people who have changed
> E-Mail providers (the bunces say 'User Unknown' or 'Mailbox full').  But some
> have 'odd' rejection reasons and I wonder what it really going on.
>
> Comcast is bouncing with the message:
>      reason: 554 Transaction Failed Spam Message not queued.
>
> Is this Comcast's way of 'hiding' the fact that the E-Mail address is no
> longer valid? That is, does Comcast consider E-Mail to unknown users spam?
>
>


My interpretation of the message is this - Comcast, for some unstated
reason, thinks that this mail is spam, so it is not going to accept
the message.  Without seeing the exact mail that was being sent,
I cannot tell what Comcast might have thought objectionable.

--Barry Finkel

From finches at portadmiral.org  Tue Jul  1 18:16:44 2014
From: finches at portadmiral.org (Larry Finch)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 12:16:44 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about rejection messages.
In-Reply-To: <53B2D6D5.3030008@att.net>
References: <201407011150.s61BoAW3011468@sharky2.deepsoft.com>
 <53B2D6D5.3030008@att.net>
Message-ID: <DC8CEB0A-62F1-4384-80EC-6D55775AD6F3@portadmiral.org>


On Jul 1, 2014, at 11:42 AM, Barry S. Finkel <bsfinkel at att.net> wrote:

> On 7/1/2014 6:50 AM, Robert Heller wrote:
>> I am the site admin of a server that hosts a bunch of Mailman lists and on the
>> 1st of the month Mailman sends out its monthly reminder messages.  Some of
>> these messages are bouncing.  Some are *obviously* for people who have changed
>> E-Mail providers (the bunces say 'User Unknown' or 'Mailbox full').  But some
>> have 'odd' rejection reasons and I wonder what it really going on.
>> 
>> Comcast is bouncing with the message:
>>     reason: 554 Transaction Failed Spam Message not queued.
>> 
>> Is this Comcast's way of 'hiding' the fact that the E-Mail address is no
>> longer valid? That is, does Comcast consider E-Mail to unknown users spam?
>> 
>> 
> 

Comcast* will reject all list mail from a Yahoo or AOL member post based on those ISP?s DMARC p=reject policy. In other words, they honor the p=reject. Could this be your issue?

best regards,
Larry

*So will many other ISPs: SBC Global, AT&T, Rogers, Earthlink, etc.

--
Larry Finch
finches at portadmiral.org




From heller at deepsoft.com  Tue Jul  1 18:59:17 2014
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 12:59:17 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about rejection messages.
In-Reply-To: <53B2D6D5.3030008@att.net>
References: <201407011150.s61BoAW3011468@sharky2.deepsoft.com> 
 <53B2D6D5.3030008@att.net>
Message-ID: <201407011659.s61GxHGR023484@sharky2.deepsoft.com>

At Tue, 01 Jul 2014 10:42:13 -0500 "Barry S. Finkel" <bsfinkel at att.net> wrote:

> 
> On 7/1/2014 6:50 AM, Robert Heller wrote:
> > I am the site admin of a server that hosts a bunch of Mailman lists and on the
> > 1st of the month Mailman sends out its monthly reminder messages.  Some of
> > these messages are bouncing.  Some are *obviously* for people who have changed
> > E-Mail providers (the bunces say 'User Unknown' or 'Mailbox full').  But some
> > have 'odd' rejection reasons and I wonder what it really going on.
> >
> > Comcast is bouncing with the message:
> >      reason: 554 Transaction Failed Spam Message not queued.
> >
> > Is this Comcast's way of 'hiding' the fact that the E-Mail address is no
> > longer valid? That is, does Comcast consider E-Mail to unknown users spam?
> >
> >
> 
> 
> My interpretation of the message is this - Comcast, for some unstated
> reason, thinks that this mail is spam, so it is not going to accept
> the message.  Without seeing the exact mail that was being sent,
> I cannot tell what Comcast might have thought objectionable.

It was the monthly Mailman reminder message.

> 
> --Barry Finkel
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/heller%40deepsoft.com
> 
>                      

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933 / heller at deepsoft.com
Deepwoods Software        -- http://www.deepsoft.com/
()  ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   -- against proprietary attachments


                                                

From heller at deepsoft.com  Tue Jul  1 18:59:18 2014
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 12:59:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about rejection messages.
In-Reply-To: <DC8CEB0A-62F1-4384-80EC-6D55775AD6F3@portadmiral.org>
References: <201407011150.s61BoAW3011468@sharky2.deepsoft.com> 
 <53B2D6D5.3030008@att.net> 
 <DC8CEB0A-62F1-4384-80EC-6D55775AD6F3@portadmiral.org>
Message-ID: <201407011659.s61GxIRN023490@sharky2.deepsoft.com>

At Tue, 1 Jul 2014 12:16:44 -0400 Larry Finch <finches at portadmiral.org> wrote:

> 
> 
> On Jul 1, 2014, at 11:42 AM, Barry S. Finkel <bsfinkel at att.net> wrote:
> 
> > On 7/1/2014 6:50 AM, Robert Heller wrote:
> >> I am the site admin of a server that hosts a bunch of Mailman lists and on the
> >> 1st of the month Mailman sends out its monthly reminder messages.  Some of
> >> these messages are bouncing.  Some are *obviously* for people who have changed
> >> E-Mail providers (the bunces say 'User Unknown' or 'Mailbox full').  But some
> >> have 'odd' rejection reasons and I wonder what it really going on.
> >> 
> >> Comcast is bouncing with the message:
> >>     reason: 554 Transaction Failed Spam Message not queued.
> >> 
> >> Is this Comcast's way of 'hiding' the fact that the E-Mail address is no
> >> longer valid? That is, does Comcast consider E-Mail to unknown users spam?
> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> 
> Comcast* will reject all list mail from a Yahoo or AOL member post based on
> those ISP??s DMARC p=reject policy. In other words, they honor the p=reject.
> Could this be your issue?

No. As I stated above, it was a Mailman monthly reminder message. 

> 
> best regards,
> Larry
> 
> *So will many other ISPs: SBC Global, AT&T, Rogers, Earthlink, etc.
> 
> --
> Larry Finch
> finches at portadmiral.org
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/heller%40deepsoft.com
> 
>   
> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933 / heller at deepsoft.com
Deepwoods Software        -- http://www.deepsoft.com/
()  ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   -- against proprietary attachments


                                                            

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Wed Jul  2 00:07:49 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 08:07:49 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about rejection messages.
In-Reply-To: <201407011150.s61BoAW3011468@sharky2.deepsoft.com>
References: <201407011150.s61BoAW3011468@sharky2.deepsoft.com>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C38F4@nuwvicms2>

Do you know if any of the reminders to Comcast addresses are getting through?

Peter Shute

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mailman-Users 
> [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+pshute=nuw.org.au at python.org] 
> On Behalf Of Robert Heller
> Sent: Tuesday, 1 July 2014 9:50 PM
> To: Mailman Users
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about rejection messages.
> 
> I am the site admin of a server that hosts a bunch of Mailman 
> lists and on the 1st of the month Mailman sends out its 
> monthly reminder messages.  Some of these messages are 
> bouncing.  Some are *obviously* for people who have changed 
> E-Mail providers (the bunces say 'User Unknown' or 'Mailbox 
> full').  But some have 'odd' rejection reasons and I wonder 
> what it really going on.
> 
> Comcast is bouncing with the message:
>     reason: 554 Transaction Failed Spam Message not queued.
>     
> Is this Comcast's way of 'hiding' the fact that the E-Mail 
> address is no longer valid? That is, does Comcast consider 
> E-Mail to unknown users spam?

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul  2 00:36:37 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2014 15:36:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about rejection messages.
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C38F4@nuwvicms2>
References: <201407011150.s61BoAW3011468@sharky2.deepsoft.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C38F4@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <53B337F5.5050106@msapiro.net>

On 07/01/2014 03:07 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
> Do you know if any of the reminders to Comcast addresses are getting through?


At 05:00 local time this morning my Mailman installation sent password
reminders to 65 comcast.net addresses. Of these, exactly 1 bounced with

550 5.1.1 <user at comcast.net> Account not available (in reply to RCPT TO
command)

and this was for a known bad address that's been bouncing password
reminders for at least two months prior to today.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Jul  2 04:12:52 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2014 11:12:52 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about rejection messages.
In-Reply-To: <53B337F5.5050106@msapiro.net>
References: <201407011150.s61BoAW3011468@sharky2.deepsoft.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C38F4@nuwvicms2>
 <53B337F5.5050106@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <87fvikv78b.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > At 05:00 local time this morning my Mailman installation sent password
 > reminders to 65 comcast.net addresses. Of these, exactly 1 bounced with
 > 
 > 550 5.1.1 <user at comcast.net> Account not available (in reply to RCPT TO
 > command)

OK, so we know Comcast will admit that a user doesn't exist.  Is this
a personalized list?  Maybe Comcast does something different with a
multiple recipient RCPT TO that contains multiple invalid users?

Also, note that this message, presumably a quote from comcast.net up
to the open paren, includes an extended status code whereas the OP's
error did not.  I wonder if his MTA was actually talking to
comcast.net?  Maybe somebody gave him a "comcast.com" address by
mistake or something like that?


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul  2 05:34:15 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2014 20:34:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about rejection messages.
In-Reply-To: <87fvikv78b.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <201407011150.s61BoAW3011468@sharky2.deepsoft.com>	<C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C38F4@nuwvicms2>	<53B337F5.5050106@msapiro.net>
 <87fvikv78b.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <53B37DB7.2080500@msapiro.net>

On 07/01/2014 07:12 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Mark Sapiro writes:
> 
>  > At 05:00 local time this morning my Mailman installation sent password
>  > reminders to 65 comcast.net addresses. Of these, exactly 1 bounced with
>  > 
>  > 550 5.1.1 <user at comcast.net> Account not available (in reply to RCPT TO
>  > command)
> 
> OK, so we know Comcast will admit that a user doesn't exist.  Is this
> a personalized list?  Maybe Comcast does something different with a
> multiple recipient RCPT TO that contains multiple invalid users?


These and the OP's were all password reminders which are all
'personalized' and sent to a single RCPT TO


> Also, note that this message, presumably a quote from comcast.net up
> to the open paren, includes an extended status code whereas the OP's
> error did not.  I wonder if his MTA was actually talking to
> comcast.net?  Maybe somebody gave him a "comcast.com" address by
> mistake or something like that?


Good observation.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From her at adm.ku.dk  Wed Jul  2 12:58:48 2014
From: her at adm.ku.dk (Henrik Rasmussen)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 10:58:48 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Password in clear text
Message-ID: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713DBAF2EA44@P1KITMBX05WC03.unicph.domain>

I know this has been asked before, but I haven't found anything about whether or not this will be a future change or how to work around it.

The passwords in Mailman, are stored unencrypted. The web connection can be encrypted by SSL to avoid man in the middle, but passwords are sent in clear text in password reminders.

Is there any plans of a future change so passwords will be stored encrypted, and some kind of one-time link to change the password, instead of sending reminders, or some kind of challenge will be implemented, to avoid revealing the password to third party?

Otherwise I will request such a change.

Henrik Rasmussen

From heller at deepsoft.com  Wed Jul  2 13:49:10 2014
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 07:49:10 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about rejection messages.
In-Reply-To: <53B37DB7.2080500@msapiro.net>
References: <201407011150.s61BoAW3011468@sharky2.deepsoft.com> 
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C38F4@nuwvicms2> 
 <53B337F5.5050106@msapiro.net> 
 <87fvikv78b.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> 
 <53B37DB7.2080500@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <201407021149.s62BnAvF026084@sharky2.deepsoft.com>

At Tue, 01 Jul 2014 20:34:15 -0700 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> 
> On 07/01/2014 07:12 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> > Mark Sapiro writes:
> > 
> >  > At 05:00 local time this morning my Mailman installation sent password
> >  > reminders to 65 comcast.net addresses. Of these, exactly 1 bounced with
> >  > 
> >  > 550 5.1.1 <user at comcast.net> Account not available (in reply to RCPT TO
> >  > command)
> > 
> > OK, so we know Comcast will admit that a user doesn't exist.  Is this
> > a personalized list?  Maybe Comcast does something different with a
> > multiple recipient RCPT TO that contains multiple invalid users?
> 
> 
> These and the OP's were all password reminders which are all
> 'personalized' and sent to a single RCPT TO
> 
> 
> > Also, note that this message, presumably a quote from comcast.net up
> > to the open paren, includes an extended status code whereas the OP's
> > error did not.  I wonder if his MTA was actually talking to
> > comcast.net?  Maybe somebody gave him a "comcast.com" address by
> > mistake or something like that?
> 
> 
> Good observation.

All three of the comcast bounces were @cable.comcast.com addresses.  Other 
comcast address (all @comcast.net) went through fine.  The @cable.comcast.com 
were working for sometime.  The list in question has had extreemly low volume 
recently, and was never a really high volume list.

> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933 / heller at deepsoft.com
Deepwoods Software        -- http://www.deepsoft.com/
()  ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   -- against proprietary attachments


                                                                   

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Jul  2 14:28:51 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2014 21:28:51 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about rejection messages.
In-Reply-To: <201407021149.s62BnAvF026084@sharky2.deepsoft.com>
References: <201407011150.s61BoAW3011468@sharky2.deepsoft.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C38F4@nuwvicms2>
 <53B337F5.5050106@msapiro.net>
 <87fvikv78b.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <53B37DB7.2080500@msapiro.net>
 <201407021149.s62BnAvF026084@sharky2.deepsoft.com>
Message-ID: <878uocuepo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Robert Heller writes:

 > All three of the comcast bounces were @cable.comcast.com addresses.
 > Other comcast address (all @comcast.net) went through fine.  The
 > @cable.comcast.com were working for sometime.

Well, comcast.net is participating in DMARC, while neither comcast.com
not cable.comcast.com are.  I suspect that they've decommissioned
those domains for incoming mail completely, and so assume that any
mail going to such addresses is spam based on old lists.

Steve

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul  2 15:28:37 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2014 06:28:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Password in clear text
In-Reply-To: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713DBAF2EA44@P1KITMBX05WC03.unicph.domain>
References: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713DBAF2EA44@P1KITMBX05WC03.unicph.domain>
Message-ID: <53B40905.4040900@msapiro.net>

On 07/02/2014 03:58 AM, Henrik Rasmussen wrote:
> I know this has been asked before, but I haven't found anything about whether or not this will be a future change or how to work around it.


Mailman 3 does not store unencrypted passwords.

There are no plans for changing the way passwords are handled in Mailman
2.1.

You can always remove cron/mailpasswds from Mailman's crontab to avoid
sending monthly reminders all together regardless of list or user
settings. Users will still be able to request a reminder from the
options login page.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Jul  3 06:51:56 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2014 13:51:56 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Password in clear text
In-Reply-To: <53B40905.4040900@msapiro.net>
References: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713DBAF2EA44@P1KITMBX05WC03.unicph.domain>
 <53B40905.4040900@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <877g3vujrn.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:
 > On 07/02/2014 03:58 AM, Henrik Rasmussen wrote:

 > > I know this has been asked before, but I haven't found anything
 > > about whether or not this will be a future change or how to work
 > > around it.

 > You can always remove cron/mailpasswds from Mailman's crontab to avoid
 > sending monthly reminders all together regardless of list or user
 > settings. Users will still be able to request a reminder from the
 > options login page.

A more complicated option is to use MemberAdapter and handle
authentication entirely yourself.

IMHO, for anybody who has done the work ensuring the security of the
accompanying system (TLS/SASL for all communications, encrypted hard
drives for all stored traffic including users' archives, etc),
MemberAdapter will be a snap. :-)

Of course in security every little bit matters, and the design
decision in Mailman 3 to never store unencrypted (or decryptable, for
that matter) passwords was the correct one.  But given how leaky the
mail system is by default, I think the incremental benefit to the vast
majority of our users to trying to plug this hole ex post design of
Mailman 2 is too small to justify the effort.


From jaw171 at pitt.edu  Wed Jul  2 18:46:38 2014
From: jaw171 at pitt.edu (Jeff White)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2014 12:46:38 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Password in clear text
In-Reply-To: <53B40905.4040900@msapiro.net>
References: <6DCC3E5DA06FE346B4DE4876C4F2713DBAF2EA44@P1KITMBX05WC03.unicph.domain>
 <53B40905.4040900@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <53B4376E.6030707@pitt.edu>

I have a script that disables password reminders on lists.  So if you 
have a bunch of lists that may or may not have reminders set you can run 
this to disable them all and notify the list owners you did so.

https://github.com/jwhite530/Random/blob/master/Mailman/disable_password_reminders.py

Jeff White - GNU+Linux Systems Administrator
University of Pittsburgh - CSSD

On 07/02/2014 09:28 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 07/02/2014 03:58 AM, Henrik Rasmussen wrote:
>> I know this has been asked before, but I haven't found anything about whether or not this will be a future change or how to work around it.
>
>
> Mailman 3 does not store unencrypted passwords.
>
> There are no plans for changing the way passwords are handled in Mailman
> 2.1.
>
> You can always remove cron/mailpasswds from Mailman's crontab to avoid
> sending monthly reminders all together regardless of list or user
> settings. Users will still be able to request a reminder from the
> options login page.
>

From mohsen at pahlevanzadeh.org  Fri Jul  4 01:58:16 2014
From: mohsen at pahlevanzadeh.org (Mohsen Pahlevanzadeh)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2014 04:28:16 +0430
Subject: [Mailman-Users] newsletter with mailman
Message-ID: <1404431896.7193.3.camel@debian>

Dear all,

I need to create a read-only mailing list, and users can't post to list
and just read news.By the way, i only have mailman web interface, no
cmd.
Before any help, Thank you ....

Yours,
Mohsen


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul  4 17:32:14 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2014 08:32:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] newsletter with mailman
In-Reply-To: <1404431896.7193.3.camel@debian>
References: <1404431896.7193.3.camel@debian>
Message-ID: <53B6C8FE.4060103@msapiro.net>

On 07/03/2014 04:58 PM, Mohsen Pahlevanzadeh wrote:
> 
> I need to create a read-only mailing list, and users can't post to list
> and just read news.By the way, i only have mailman web interface, no
> cmd.


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/3YA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From heller at deepsoft.com  Fri Jul  4 17:35:11 2014
From: heller at deepsoft.com (Robert Heller)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2014 11:35:11 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] newsletter with mailman
Message-ID: <201407041535.s64FZB2C021904@sharky2.deepsoft.com>

All you need to do is set all users to 'moderated', set the reply-to to you (not the list or the poster),
and disable posting by moderated users.  You can join the list and turn off moderation for your self OR 
add you E-Mail address to the list of non-members that can post to the list.

All of this can be done with the web interface.

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Fri Jul  4 17:35:57 2014
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2014 11:35:57 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] newsletter with mailman
In-Reply-To: <1404431896.7193.3.camel@debian>
References: <1404431896.7193.3.camel@debian>
Message-ID: <53B6C9DD.5050104@Damon-Family.org>

On 7/3/14, 7:58 PM, Mohsen Pahlevanzadeh wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I need to create a read-only mailing list, and users can't post to list
> and just read news.By the way, i only have mailman web interface, no
> cmd.
> Before any help, Thank you ....
>
> Yours,
> Mohsen
>
There is a web page in the faq about this: 
http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030685

The essential basics, make sure all new subscribers are moderated, and 
never remove them from moderation (so they can't post). Then if they do 
post the messages will be held for review (so you can reject them), or 
you can set up filters to automatically reject them (though the reject 
message will not be very helpful).

-- 
Richard Damon


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul  4 18:10:37 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2014 09:10:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] newsletter with mailman
In-Reply-To: <201407041535.s64FZB2C021904@sharky2.deepsoft.com>
References: <201407041535.s64FZB2C021904@sharky2.deepsoft.com>
Message-ID: <53B6D1FD.70508@msapiro.net>

On 07/04/2014 08:35 AM, Robert Heller wrote:
> You can join the list and turn off moderation for your self OR 
> add you E-Mail address to the list of non-members that can post to the list.


This method of posting to a 'newsletter' list is insecure. Any list
member who sees the address that posts are From: and wants to post can
just spoof that From: address in his own post. Also, random spam From:
the authorized address and To: the list will be accepted.

The secure method is to leave everyone moderated and post with an
Approved: header as discussed in the FAQs at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/3YA9> and <http://wiki.list.org/x/XIA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From r.klein at inode.at  Sat Jul  5 17:03:20 2014
From: r.klein at inode.at (Reinhard Klein)
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2014 17:03:20 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Subscribers Management
Message-ID: <53B813B8.9090105@inode.at>

Hi to all
We have just started to run a Mailing list with nearly 1000 subscribers. 
If I go to list the subcribers in the admin web interface, I have only 
found the possibilty to search subscribers by name or e-mail adress to 
list them, or list all by entering a star (*)
Is there a possibility to search by the content of the other subscriber 
list columns like "nomail"  to see who has nomail = on for any reason. 
If so, what is the search syntax for that.
Thanks for help!
Reinhard Klein

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jul  6 16:01:27 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2014 07:01:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Subscribers Management
In-Reply-To: <53B813B8.9090105@inode.at>
References: <53B813B8.9090105@inode.at>
Message-ID: <53B956B7.5070807@msapiro.net>

On 07/05/2014 08:03 AM, Reinhard Klein wrote:
> Hi to all
> We have just started to run a Mailing list with nearly 1000 subscribers.
> If I go to list the subcribers in the admin web interface, I have only
> found the possibilty to search subscribers by name or e-mail adress to
> list them, or list all by entering a star (*)


You can also search by partial name or email address, e.g, search for
yahoo.com to find all members with yahoo.com addresses[1]. You can also
search for members whose name or address matches a regular expression
pattern, e.g. ^j.*com$ to find members whose name or address starts with
'j' and ends with 'com'. All matches are case insensitive. see the 'Find
member' help link for documentation of the regular expression syntax.


> Is there a possibility to search by the content of the other subscriber
> list columns like "nomail"  to see who has nomail = on for any reason.
> If so, what is the search syntax for that.


Not directly from the web UI. If you have access to Mailman's command
line tools, you can use Mailman's bin/list_members for this, e.g.

bin/list_members --nomail LISTNAME

See 'bin/list_members --help' for more.

If you only have web access, the script at
<http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/mailman-subscribers.py> and/or the FAQ
at <http://wiki.list.org/x/aYA9> may help.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From rob at colorist.org  Sun Jul  6 16:26:51 2014
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2014 09:26:51 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] adding a logo to the  general list info page
Message-ID: <DBA2DEC1-29BE-4B2D-B11D-D1FA551E4A49@colorist.org>

I?d like to add a logo to the general list info page.  Please excuse the somewhat sophomoric question? 

I can access the editing interface for the page, but how to add the logo seems a little inscrutable.

thanks in advance.

Rob


--
Rob Lingelbach  http://rob.colorist.org
http://colorist.org   rob at colorist.org


From larry at qhpress.org  Sun Jul  6 16:52:11 2014
From: larry at qhpress.org (Larry Kuenning)
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2014 10:52:11 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Subscribers Management
In-Reply-To: <53B956B7.5070807@msapiro.net>
References: <53B813B8.9090105@inode.at> <53B956B7.5070807@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <53B9629B.9080206@qhpress.org>

On 7/6/2014 10:01 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> see the 'Find
> member' help link for documentation of the regular expression syntax.

This link currently gets a "404 File Not Found" error.

Incidentally I find by experiment that neither a star (as mentioned by 
the OP) nor the regular expression "^.*@.*$" succeeds in showing all 
members of a list in my Mailman 2.1.9 installation.  The star by itself 
gets "Error: Bad regular expression: *" (not surprising) and the regular 
expression (or the simpler "@") gets only a list of the A's (except in a 
list that's so small it shows its whole membership automatically in the 
web interface).  A more restrictive search term (such as "@yahoo") does 
work but of course doesn't find all members.

-- 
Larry Kuenning
larry at qhpress.org


From rob at colorist.org  Sun Jul  6 18:25:20 2014
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2014 11:25:20 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] adding a logo to the general list info page
In-Reply-To: <CADbGg-Na6Y62Y2gQzZ2M73Bj_VY9BghKAa5fLtXj2p9XcSZVUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DBA2DEC1-29BE-4B2D-B11D-D1FA551E4A49@colorist.org>
 <CADbGg-Na6Y62Y2gQzZ2M73Bj_VY9BghKAa5fLtXj2p9XcSZVUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8D2FF13E-358A-43F1-89D6-C4FC2A8EAFB5@colorist.org>


On Jul 6, 2014, at 11:19 AM, billy noah <billynoah at zuma-design.com> wrote:

> Suppose you could just insert something like: <img width="200" src="http://example.com/my-image.jpg"> somewhere in the table?  Are you familliar enough with html to understand the table layout?
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Rob Lingelbach <rob at colorist.org> wrote:
> I?d like to add a logo to the general list info page.  Please excuse the somewhat sophomoric question?
> 
> I can access the editing interface for the page, but how to add the logo seems a little inscrutable.


I have been familiar, it?s been a while, thanks for the suggestion, will definitely give it a try.  

Rob

--
Rob Lingelbach  http://rob.colorist.org
http://colorist.org   rob at colorist.org


From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Sun Jul  6 19:45:01 2014
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2014 13:45:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Subscribers Management
In-Reply-To: <53B9629B.9080206@qhpress.org>
References: <53B813B8.9090105@inode.at> <53B956B7.5070807@msapiro.net>
 <53B9629B.9080206@qhpress.org>
Message-ID: <53B98B1D.3070701@Damon-Family.org>

On 7/6/14, 10:52 AM, Larry Kuenning wrote:
> On 7/6/2014 10:01 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>> see the 'Find
>> member' help link for documentation of the regular expression syntax.
>
> This link currently gets a "404 File Not Found" error.
>
> Incidentally I find by experiment that neither a star (as mentioned by 
> the OP) nor the regular expression "^.*@.*$" succeeds in showing all 
> members of a list in my Mailman 2.1.9 installation.  The star by 
> itself gets "Error: Bad regular expression: *" (not surprising) and 
> the regular expression (or the simpler "@") gets only a list of the 
> A's (except in a list that's so small it shows its whole membership 
> automatically in the web interface).  A more restrictive search term 
> (such as "@yahoo") does work but of course doesn't find all members.
>
Any search that returns more than a "chunk" full of results, will get 
broken into pages based on the first letter (and if there are more than 
a chunk worth that begin with that letter, broken into chunk sized pieces).

If you change the chunk size to be larger than the number of members on 
the list (and isn't so big that mailman chokes on it), then you will get 
a full listing of members.

-- 
Richard Damon


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jul  6 20:03:51 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2014 11:03:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Subscribers Management
In-Reply-To: <53B9629B.9080206@qhpress.org>
References: <53B813B8.9090105@inode.at> <53B956B7.5070807@msapiro.net>
 <53B9629B.9080206@qhpress.org>
Message-ID: <49fed0ec-c17b-4a3f-b8df-4955dbd13d30@email.android.com>

On July 6, 2014 7:52:11 AM PDT, Larry Kuenning <larry at qhpress.org> wrote:
>On 7/6/2014 10:01 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>> see the 'Find
>> member' help link for documentation of the regular expression syntax.
>
>This link currently gets a "404 File Not Found" error.


The link has been corrected in more recent mailman versions. It's a link to the Python re module documentation at www.python.org



-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. [Unpaid endorsement]

From billynoah at zuma-design.com  Sun Jul  6 18:19:42 2014
From: billynoah at zuma-design.com (billy noah)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2014 12:19:42 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] adding a logo to the general list info page
In-Reply-To: <DBA2DEC1-29BE-4B2D-B11D-D1FA551E4A49@colorist.org>
References: <DBA2DEC1-29BE-4B2D-B11D-D1FA551E4A49@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <CADbGg-Na6Y62Y2gQzZ2M73Bj_VY9BghKAa5fLtXj2p9XcSZVUQ@mail.gmail.com>

Suppose you could just insert something like: <img width="200" src="
http://example.com/my-image.jpg"> somewhere in the table?  Are you
familliar enough with html to understand the table layout?




On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Rob Lingelbach <rob at colorist.org> wrote:

> I?d like to add a logo to the general list info page.  Please excuse the
> somewhat sophomoric question?
>
> I can access the editing interface for the page, but how to add the logo
> seems a little inscrutable.
>
> thanks in advance.
>
> Rob
>
>
> --
> Rob Lingelbach  http://rob.colorist.org
> http://colorist.org   rob at colorist.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/billynoah%40zuma-design.com
>

From krao at teslamotors.com  Tue Jul  8 22:33:40 2014
From: krao at teslamotors.com (Kamlesh Rao)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2014 20:33:40 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about genaliases
Message-ID: <D0DD0B8E035FF64C9BBAF12F5CD288BE22A105C8@SJC04-DAG01-N02.teslamotors.com>

Hi,
I am migrating the mailman distribution lists from one instance to the other.

To reserve/block the DL names, I have copied over the all  'lists' folders to the new instance.

Is there an option to run 'genaliases' per Distribution list on a on demand basis. I believe the default behavior is that it checks all the lists in the installation directory and sets up the aliases in the file /etc/mailman/aliases and aliases.db

I am running v2.1.12 of mailman with postfix.

Regards,
Kamlesh

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul  9 10:23:42 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2014 01:23:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about genaliases
In-Reply-To: <D0DD0B8E035FF64C9BBAF12F5CD288BE22A105C8@SJC04-DAG01-N02.teslamotors.com>
References: <D0DD0B8E035FF64C9BBAF12F5CD288BE22A105C8@SJC04-DAG01-N02.teslamotors.com>
Message-ID: <53BCFC0E.70502@msapiro.net>

On 07/08/2014 01:33 PM, Kamlesh Rao wrote:
> 
> Is there an option to run 'genaliases' per Distribution list on a on demand basis. I believe the default behavior is that it checks all the lists in the installation directory and sets up the aliases in the file /etc/mailman/aliases and aliases.db


There is no such genaliases option, but you could put the following 3
lines in a file named make_alias.py in Mailman's bin/ directory

from Mailman.MTA.Postfix import create
def make_alias(mlist):
    create(mlist)

and then the command

bin/withlist -r make_alias LISTNAME

will create the aliases for LISTNAME.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cwieland at uci.edu  Wed Jul  9 19:43:44 2014
From: cwieland at uci.edu (Con Wieland)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 10:43:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list request notices
Message-ID: <6EA7C9A4-6E50-4135-889B-D8332357049C@uci.edu>

I am still receiving request notices for a list I recently removed. When I go to the admindb link I receive this message:

Mailman Administrative Database Error

No such list neighborYou must specify a list name. Here is the list of available mailing lists.

I have not had this happen before with lists after they where removed. How can I clear this?

Con WIeland
Office of Information Technology
University of California at Irvine

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul  9 20:29:58 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2014 11:29:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list request notices
In-Reply-To: <6EA7C9A4-6E50-4135-889B-D8332357049C@uci.edu>
References: <6EA7C9A4-6E50-4135-889B-D8332357049C@uci.edu>
Message-ID: <53BD8A26.7030804@msapiro.net>

On 07/09/2014 10:43 AM, Con Wieland wrote:
> I am still receiving request notices for a list I recently removed. When I go to the admindb link I receive this message:
> 
> Mailman Administrative Database Error
> 
> No such list neighborYou must specify a list name. Here is the list of available mailing lists.


Is there still a lists/neighboryou directory in Mailman's hierarchy? If
so it probably contains a requests.pck file with the request. you should
remove the entire directory and also any data/heldmsg-neighboryou-* files.

If that's not the answer, see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/EoCE>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From info at estevecom.com  Wed Jul  9 18:12:14 2014
From: info at estevecom.com (Esteve Communication)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 18:12:14 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] attached file
Message-ID: <001001cf9b90$8c7b9920$a572cb60$@com>

Hi,

 

I have difficulties to find the answer to a simple question :

 

I put an unsubscription link in the field :
<http://esteve.octopuce.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/acvinfo/?VARHELP=nondigest/
msg_footer> (D?tails de msg_footer)

 

All members receive the unsubscription link in a small attached file and not
in the footer of the message.

 

How to change that ? I would like to have the link in the email itself


 

Best regards

 

Cordialement

 

Pierre

 


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul 10 16:48:23 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 07:48:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] attached file
In-Reply-To: <001001cf9b90$8c7b9920$a572cb60$@com>
References: <001001cf9b90$8c7b9920$a572cb60$@com>
Message-ID: <53BEA7B7.1090404@msapiro.net>

On 07/09/2014 09:12 AM, Esteve Communication wrote:
> 
> I put an unsubscription link in the field :
> <http://esteve.octopuce.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/acvinfo/?VARHELP=nondigest/
> msg_footer> (D?tails de msg_footer)
> 
> All members receive the unsubscription link in a small attached file and not
> in the footer of the message.
> 
> How to change that ? I would like to have the link in the email itself?


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/84A9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From billc_lists at greenbuilder.com  Thu Jul 10 20:13:45 2014
From: billc_lists at greenbuilder.com (Bill Christensen)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 13:13:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Group mismatch again.
Message-ID: <53BED7D9.1050603@greenbuilder.com>

Hey folks,

I'm doing an upgrade/reinstall on one of my servers, and when I put 
Mailman back on I'm getting a group mismatch error.  It's happened to me 
before, but I don't remember the exact procedure to make it work properly.

The setup:  Moving from Mac OS 10.8.5 to 10.9.4, on a MAMP setup, 
everything installed using MacPorts.  Upgrading MySQL, PHP, and 
PostgreSQL in the process.  MacPorts hasn't upgraded Mailman beyond 
2.1.13 (a separate issue I may want to address later).  Right now I'm 
doing test runs on a backup to make sure all the pieces and parts will 
work properly when I do the update for real.  I have all the other parts 
in place but I'm now getting the dreaded group mismatch error from Mailman.

When I first installed everything I installed Mailman before PostgreSQL, 
and the feedback told me that I needed either to compile Mailman as 
--with-mail-gid=postgresql or change the mail server (standard Mac 
installation of Postfix) to run as group _mailman.  I uninstalled and 
reinstalled Mailman and now it's telling me that I need to compile 
Mailman as --with-mail-gid=staff.

I changed the setting in MacPorts' file from --with-mail-gid=_mailman to 
--with-mail-gid=staff and attempted to reinstall, but I'm getting an 
error that it's "Unable to open port - invalid command name 
'--with-mail-gid=staff'".

Anyone have any ideas of where to go from here?

I'd rather not do a direct download/compile of Mailman if possible, as 
MacPorts spreads the pieces and parts into a number of directories and 
I'd probably have a heck of a time getting all the paths working 
correctly again.

From addw at phcomp.co.uk  Fri Jul 11 15:13:52 2014
From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 14:13:52 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to import the xml file from export.py
Message-ID: <20140711131352.GP6540@phcomp.co.uk>

I want to extract all of the roster (user list) information from a mail list and
import into another one.[**] I can get all of what I want using export.py but I
cannot see how to import that information into another list.

How do I do that ?


BTW: how is progress on the project to store mailman info in a SQL database
rather than a python pickle ?


[**] Long story short: I took over the list from another server with an old
version of mailman running under cpanel. There is a problem where the text of
digests is duplicated - since this does not happen elsewhere an obvious solution
is to recreate the list and import the members.

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  http://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php
#include <std_disclaimer.h>

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 11 18:37:45 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 09:37:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to import the xml file from export.py
In-Reply-To: <20140711131352.GP6540@phcomp.co.uk>
References: <20140711131352.GP6540@phcomp.co.uk>
Message-ID: <53C012D9.5020909@msapiro.net>

On 07/11/2014 06:13 AM, Alain Williams wrote:
> I want to extract all of the roster (user list) information from a mail list and
> import into another one.[**] I can get all of what I want using export.py but I
> cannot see how to import that information into another list.
> 
> How do I do that ?


The 'import' script was never written. AFAIK, you have to write your own.


> BTW: how is progress on the project to store mailman info in a SQL database
> rather than a python pickle ?


This is already done in Mailman 3. There are no plans to do this in
Mailman 2.1.


> [**] Long story short: I took over the list from another server with an old
> version of mailman running under cpanel. There is a problem where the text of
> digests is duplicated - since this does not happen elsewhere an obvious solution
> is to recreate the list and import the members.


Or to diagnose the issue with the existing list and fix it. If you want
to do that, tell us more specifically what the issue is. I.e. what text
is duplicated, does it affect both plain format and MIME format digests
or only one type, and anything else you think is relevant.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jul 12 01:26:07 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 16:26:07 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Group mismatch again.
In-Reply-To: <53BED7D9.1050603@greenbuilder.com>
References: <53BED7D9.1050603@greenbuilder.com>
Message-ID: <53C0728F.7020403@msapiro.net>

On 07/10/2014 11:13 AM, Bill Christensen wrote:
> 
> The setup:  Moving from Mac OS 10.8.5 to 10.9.4, on a MAMP setup,
> everything installed using MacPorts.  Upgrading MySQL, PHP, and
> PostgreSQL in the process.  MacPorts hasn't upgraded Mailman beyond
> 2.1.13 (a separate issue I may want to address later).  Right now I'm
> doing test runs on a backup to make sure all the pieces and parts will
> work properly when I do the update for real.  I have all the other parts
> in place but I'm now getting the dreaded group mismatch error from Mailman.
> 
> When I first installed everything I installed Mailman before PostgreSQL,
> and the feedback told me that I needed either to compile Mailman as
> --with-mail-gid=postgresql or change the mail server (standard Mac
> installation of Postfix) to run as group _mailman.  I uninstalled and
> reinstalled Mailman and now it's telling me that I need to compile
> Mailman as --with-mail-gid=staff.
> 
> I changed the setting in MacPorts' file from --with-mail-gid=_mailman to
> --with-mail-gid=staff and attempted to reinstall, but I'm getting an
> error that it's "Unable to open port - invalid command name
> '--with-mail-gid=staff'".
> 
> Anyone have any ideas of where to go from here?


This is really an Apple issue, at least the way you're going about it.
Have you asked Apple?

However, you say you (only) changed --with-mail-gid=_mailman to
--with-mail-gid=staff, and whereas the install worked with
--with-mail-gid=_mailman, after the change it complains "invalid command
name '--with-mail-gid=staff'".

I really know nothing about the OS X server Mailman or even where you
made that change, but in 'standard' Mailman that would be an option to
configure and configure would never make that exact complaint. Are you
sure you didn't introduce an extraneous newline or similar that would
cause --with-mail-gid=staff to be interpreted as a command rather than
an option to a prior command?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From Jared.Fulton at timeinc.com  Fri Jul 11 18:01:09 2014
From: Jared.Fulton at timeinc.com (Jared.Fulton at timeinc.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 16:01:09 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web Interface Error
Message-ID: <04C26AD9B355FA46B6081128EAE53BCE2519F2B3@TMPEXCHMB04.enterprise.corpad.timeinc.com>

Hello,

                I recently just installed mailman on my apache virtual machine. I made the first mailing list and did all the preliminary steps but when I try to access MYWEBSERVER/mailman/create or /mailman/admin I get this; "You don't have permission to access /mailman/create on this server. Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. Where should I start to fix this issue?

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jul 12 08:25:31 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 23:25:31 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web Interface Error
In-Reply-To: <04C26AD9B355FA46B6081128EAE53BCE2519F2B3@TMPEXCHMB04.enterprise.corpad.timeinc.com>
References: <04C26AD9B355FA46B6081128EAE53BCE2519F2B3@TMPEXCHMB04.enterprise.corpad.timeinc.com>
Message-ID: <53C0D4DB.6060201@msapiro.net>

On 07/11/2014 09:01 AM, Jared.Fulton at timeinc.com wrote:
> 
>                 I recently just installed mailman on my apache virtual machine. I made the first mailing list and did all the preliminary steps but when I try to access MYWEBSERVER/mailman/create or /mailman/admin I get this; "You don't have permission to access /mailman/create on this server. Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. Where should I start to fix this issue?


Run Mailman's bin/check_perms.

See <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node10.html>.

Check Apache's error log.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From pknowles at tpnsolutions.com  Sat Jul 12 08:31:52 2014
From: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com (Peter Knowles)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 23:31:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML messages being scrubbed...
Message-ID: <CAD=__t91rDZpsFnvNc3S8jya1k4SjA140XoENzcU3pLf7+25WQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Ever since I upgraded Mailman to address DMARC issues in April a number of
archives have been having their HTML messages scrubbed.

The result is that the archived message shows all these scrubbed notices
instead of the actual message.

What is causing this and how do I resolve this?

*** is there a way to fix existing archives as well? ***

Best Regards,
Peter Knowles
TPN Solutions

E: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com
P: 604-782-9342
W: http://www.tpnsolutions.com

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jul 12 20:26:21 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 11:26:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML messages being scrubbed...
In-Reply-To: <CAD=__t91rDZpsFnvNc3S8jya1k4SjA140XoENzcU3pLf7+25WQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD=__t91rDZpsFnvNc3S8jya1k4SjA140XoENzcU3pLf7+25WQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53C17DCD.8060401@msapiro.net>

On 07/11/2014 11:31 PM, Peter Knowles wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Ever since I upgraded Mailman to address DMARC issues in April a number of
> archives have been having their HTML messages scrubbed.


I suspect you upgraded to 2.1.16 or 2.1.17 and that 2.1.18 and 2.1.18-1
do not have this behavior.

I'm not sure why this is happening, but it 2.1.18+, the archived message
should be the same as it would be without DMARC mitigation, but in
2.1.16 and 2.1.17, if the from_is_list setting in Munge From, it is the
Munged message that is archived.

On the other hand, HTML parts are always scrubbed from the archive, at
least with the default setting of ARCHIVE_HTML_SANITIZER. See the
documentation for this setting in Defaults.py.


> The result is that the archived message shows all these scrubbed notices
> instead of the actual message.
> 
> What is causing this and how do I resolve this?
> 
> *** is there a way to fix existing archives as well? ***


As I said, I'm not sure what's causing it. If the issue is that you
previously had some non-default setting for ARCHIVE_HTML_SANITIZER and
it got lost in your upgrade (because you changed it in Defaults.py
instead of overriding it in mm_cfg.py or ??), you can now set it as you
want in mm_cfg.py and restart Mailman which will fix the issue for new
messages, and rebuilding a list's archives with 'bin/arch --wipe' (see
the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/oIA9>) should fix the existing messages.

If there is some other cause, I would need to see both an 'old' and a
'new' message from archives/private/LISTNAME.mbox/LISTNAME.mbox to see
what's different to begin to understand why.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stevenjowens at gmail.com  Sat Jul 12 19:58:29 2014
From: stevenjowens at gmail.com (Steven Owens)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 13:58:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman message IDs? Disappearing Posts
Message-ID: <CAMwA6Z7MAg3nop2+FYKKetWnioC7E-0ayiwPNUyjb0zL+05uxQ@mail.gmail.com>

What does mailman do to message IDs?  When a message is posted to list
subscribers, does it have the same message ID, or a predictably
modified message ID that I can grep for?

I'm trying to trace disappearing posts from a couple of list members.
Their posts go through postfix, mailman reports the posts as
succesfully posted, and the posts show up in the list archives, but
not in the subscribers mailboxes.

I have a small list with about 20 members.  Most of the members, the
list works fine;  mail is showing up, being sent out, being received
and replied to, etc.

A handful of members lots of bounces, probably due to their provider's
policies (yahoo and hotmail, although *sometimes* the messages get
through and one yahoo user has posted successfully).

However, for these two yahoo subscribers, their posts get reported as
posted successfully, but are never received by the list subscribers.

I grep postfix logs (/var/log/mail.log) for the sender's email
address, I see a message coming in, and postfix handing it off to
mailman post (full log excerpt at end of message):

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jul  9 07:52:53 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/local[5175]: 4A11D26A33:
to=<Examplelist at example.com>, relay=local, delay=0.46,
delays=0.36/0.01/0/0.09, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post examplelist)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I grep that message ID in /var/log/mailman/* and I see one line,
telling me it was posted successfully:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
post:Jul 09 07:52:54 2014 (4216) post to listname from
example at yahoo.com, size=3411,
message-id=<1404892372.90900.YahooMailBasic at web163105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>,
success
----------------------------------------------------------------------

No other occurrences of that message ID in /var/log/mailman/*.  Or
anywhere in /var/log other than the lines of postfix receiving it,
forwarding it and cleaning it up (see log excerpt at end).

The mailman post log just says "posted successfully", nothing else in
there to indicate where to look next, or what the new message ID (if
any) might be.  Any hints?

Grepping for lines with a similar timestamp turns up half a dozen
bounce messages two seconds later, which may explains why those 6
subscribers don't get the messages, but not the rest.

/var/log/mailman/error is empty.

/var/lib/mailman/qfiles subdirectories are empty.

Content filtering is NOT on.  Though I just went in and changed the
action from "discard" to "forward to list owner" (me), just in case.

--/var/log/mail.log---------------------------------------------------
Jul  9 07:52:52 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/smtpd[5171]: connect from
nm12-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com[98.139.213.140]
Jul  9 07:52:53 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/smtpd[5171]: 4A11D26A33:
client=nm12-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com[98.139.213.140]
Jul  9 07:52:53 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/cleanup[5174]: 4A11D26A33:
message-id=<1404892372.90900.YahooMailBasic at web163105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Jul  9 07:52:53 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/qmgr[1119]: 4A11D26A33:
from=<exampleuser at yahoo.com>, size=2415, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
Jul  9 07:52:53 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/local[5175]: 4A11D26A33:
to=<Examplelist at example.com>, relay=local, delay=0.46,
delays=0.36/0.01/0/0.09, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post examplelist)
Jul  9 07:52:53 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/qmgr[1119]: 4A11D26A33: removed
Jul  9 07:52:53 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/smtpd[5171]: disconnect from
nm12-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com[98.139.213.140]
Jul  9 07:52:54 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/smtpd[5171]: connect from
localhost[127.0.0.1]
Jul  9 07:52:54 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/smtpd[5171]: 88D3726A7D:
client=localhost[127.0.0.1]
Jul  9 07:52:54 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/cleanup[5174]: 88D3726A7D:
message-id=<1404892372.90900.YahooMailBasic at web163105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Jul  9 07:52:54 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/qmgr[1119]: 88D3726A7D:
from=<examplelist-bounces at example.com>, size=3672, nrcpt=1 (queue
active)
Jul  9 07:52:54 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/smtpd[5171]: 95CF926A7E:
client=localhost[127.0.0.1]
Jul  9 07:52:54 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/cleanup[5174]: 95CF926A7E:
message-id=<1404892372.90900.YahooMailBasic at web163105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Jul  9 07:52:54 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/smtpd[5171]: disconnect from
localhost[127.0.0.1]
----------------------------------------------------------------------

--/var/log/mailman/post-----------------------------------------------
Jul 09 07:52:54 2014 (4216) post to examplelist from
exampleuser at yahoo.com, size=3411,
message-id=<1404892372.90900.YahooMailBasic at web163105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>,
success
----------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Steven J. Owens
stevenjowens at gmail.com
puff at darksleep.com
412-401-8060

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jul 12 21:20:57 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 12:20:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman message IDs? Disappearing Posts
In-Reply-To: <CAMwA6Z7MAg3nop2+FYKKetWnioC7E-0ayiwPNUyjb0zL+05uxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMwA6Z7MAg3nop2+FYKKetWnioC7E-0ayiwPNUyjb0zL+05uxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53C18A99.7000001@msapiro.net>

On 07/12/2014 10:58 AM, Steven Owens wrote:
> What does mailman do to message IDs?  When a message is posted to list
> subscribers, does it have the same message ID, or a predictably
> modified message ID that I can grep for?


Mailman does not modify the Message-ID of list posts except in the case
of anonymous lists. In that case, and in the case of a message wrapped
for DMARC mitigation, the Message-ID of the anonymized message or the
outer wrapping message is a Mailman generated id of the form
<mailman.nnnn.tttt.pppp.LISTNAME at HOST> where nnnn is a serial number,
tttt is the time in seconds since the epoch, and pppp is the pid of the
IncomingRunner process.


> I'm trying to trace disappearing posts from a couple of list members.
> Their posts go through postfix, mailman reports the posts as
> succesfully posted, and the posts show up in the list archives, but
> not in the subscribers mailboxes.


Is there anything in Mailman's bounce log? What does Postfix report
about the outgoing posts?


> I have a small list with about 20 members.  Most of the members, the
> list works fine;  mail is showing up, being sent out, being received
> and replied to, etc.
> 
> A handful of members lots of bounces, probably due to their provider's
> policies (yahoo and hotmail, although *sometimes* the messages get
> through and one yahoo user has posted successfully).
> 
> However, for these two yahoo subscribers, their posts get reported as
> posted successfully, but are never received by the list subscribers.


Because the recipient's MTA's are rejecting the post for DMARC policy
reasons.


> I grep postfix logs (/var/log/mail.log) for the sender's email
> address, I see a message coming in, and postfix handing it off to
> mailman post (full log excerpt at end of message):
...
> Grepping for lines with a similar timestamp turns up half a dozen
> bounce messages two seconds later, which may explains why those 6
> subscribers don't get the messages, but not the rest.


The bounces may be for multiple recipients in the same domain.


> Jul  9 07:52:54 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/smtpd[5171]: connect from
> localhost[127.0.0.1]
> Jul  9 07:52:54 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/smtpd[5171]: 88D3726A7D:
> client=localhost[127.0.0.1]
> Jul  9 07:52:54 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/cleanup[5174]: 88D3726A7D:
> message-id=<1404892372.90900.YahooMailBasic at web163105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Jul  9 07:52:54 ip-172-31-8-246 postfix/qmgr[1119]: 88D3726A7D:
> from=<examplelist-bounces at example.com>, size=3672, nrcpt=1 (queue
> active)

What else do you see in the Postfix log with queue ID 88D3726A7D ?

See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/ggARAQ>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stevenjowens at gmail.com  Sat Jul 12 23:10:14 2014
From: stevenjowens at gmail.com (Steven Owens)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 17:10:14 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman message IDs? Disappearing Posts
In-Reply-To: <53C18A99.7000001@msapiro.net>
References: <CAMwA6Z7MAg3nop2+FYKKetWnioC7E-0ayiwPNUyjb0zL+05uxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C18A99.7000001@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAMwA6Z7OdP4+9sq34z2NeVb-tNXkabafP+sOVpGYj0L1WtVzOQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have some new data just now, as one of the list subscribers finally
reported that they had seen one of the posts in question.

Also, confusing the issue was the fact that my gmail account is
receiving other list messages, but not list messages from those users,
and there was no sign of a bounce from gmail.  However, I did some
googling and apparently it's not unknown for gmail to silently discard
messages... sigh.

What's weird is that hotmail/yahoo/gmail are discarding or bouncing
some messages, and allowing some others through.  One yahoo user's
posts get through while another's done.

Doing some more googling, it looks like a lot of spam filtering /
blocking policies changed recently.  I guess I need to study up.  If
you have any suggestions for where to start, I'm all ears (well,
eyes).

I was going to ask if there's a log level setting that I can turn up,
but google shows you replying to a similar request with "no" :-).

Thanks for the help.


-- 
Steven J. Owens
stevenjowens at gmail.com
puff at darksleep.com
412-401-8060

From billynoah at zuma-design.com  Sat Jul 12 23:28:49 2014
From: billynoah at zuma-design.com (billy noah)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 17:28:49 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman message IDs? Disappearing Posts
In-Reply-To: <CAMwA6Z7OdP4+9sq34z2NeVb-tNXkabafP+sOVpGYj0L1WtVzOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMwA6Z7MAg3nop2+FYKKetWnioC7E-0ayiwPNUyjb0zL+05uxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C18A99.7000001@msapiro.net>
 <CAMwA6Z7OdP4+9sq34z2NeVb-tNXkabafP+sOVpGYj0L1WtVzOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADbGg-Naya2LXNDH4Jcr4AETMHEBBDN+w5DTSnpuJEe_xbfmXQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not sure if this makes any difference but you'll want to make sure you
have spf records & dkim set up for your mailserver.  I had some troubles
with messages being discarded by gmai, hotmail and others before I got this
set up properly.  On the other hand, if some messages are going through at
all then I'm not sure if this would have much effect.  In any event it's
recommended.


On Sat, Jul 12, 2014 at 5:10 PM, Steven Owens <stevenjowens at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I have some new data just now, as one of the list subscribers finally
> reported that they had seen one of the posts in question.
>
> Also, confusing the issue was the fact that my gmail account is
> receiving other list messages, but not list messages from those users,
> and there was no sign of a bounce from gmail.  However, I did some
> googling and apparently it's not unknown for gmail to silently discard
> messages... sigh.
>
> What's weird is that hotmail/yahoo/gmail are discarding or bouncing
> some messages, and allowing some others through.  One yahoo user's
> posts get through while another's done.
>
> Doing some more googling, it looks like a lot of spam filtering /
> blocking policies changed recently.  I guess I need to study up.  If
> you have any suggestions for where to start, I'm all ears (well,
> eyes).
>
> I was going to ask if there's a log level setting that I can turn up,
> but google shows you replying to a similar request with "no" :-).
>
> Thanks for the help.
>
>
> --
> Steven J. Owens
> stevenjowens at gmail.com
> puff at darksleep.com
> 412-401-8060
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/billynoah%40zuma-design.com
>

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Sun Jul 13 00:48:43 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 08:48:43 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman message IDs? Disappearing Posts
In-Reply-To: <CAMwA6Z7OdP4+9sq34z2NeVb-tNXkabafP+sOVpGYj0L1WtVzOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMwA6Z7MAg3nop2+FYKKetWnioC7E-0ayiwPNUyjb0zL+05uxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C18A99.7000001@msapiro.net>
 <CAMwA6Z7OdP4+9sq34z2NeVb-tNXkabafP+sOVpGYj0L1WtVzOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B400A79D-F2B3-4565-9EED-F076C7E5D905@nuw.org.au>

Confusing things more is that not all Yahoo domains are set to p=reject. E.g. Yahoo.com.au doesn't, but yahoo.com does. Are all your yahoo members on yahoo.com?

Peter Shute

Sent from my iPad

> On 13 Jul 2014, at 7:10 am, "Steven Owens" <stevenjowens at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I have some new data just now, as one of the list subscribers finally
> reported that they had seen one of the posts in question.
> 
> Also, confusing the issue was the fact that my gmail account is
> receiving other list messages, but not list messages from those users,
> and there was no sign of a bounce from gmail.  However, I did some
> googling and apparently it's not unknown for gmail to silently discard
> messages... sigh.
> 
> What's weird is that hotmail/yahoo/gmail are discarding or bouncing
> some messages, and allowing some others through.  One yahoo user's
> posts get through while another's done.
> 
> Doing some more googling, it looks like a lot of spam filtering /
> blocking policies changed recently.  I guess I need to study up.  If
> you have any suggestions for where to start, I'm all ears (well,
> eyes).
> 
> I was going to ask if there's a log level setting that I can turn up,
> but google shows you replying to a similar request with "no" :-).
> 
> Thanks for the help.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Steven J. Owens
> stevenjowens at gmail.com
> puff at darksleep.com
> 412-401-8060
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pshute%40nuw.org.au

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jul 13 00:53:38 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 15:53:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman message IDs? Disappearing Posts
In-Reply-To: <CADbGg-Naya2LXNDH4Jcr4AETMHEBBDN+w5DTSnpuJEe_xbfmXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMwA6Z7MAg3nop2+FYKKetWnioC7E-0ayiwPNUyjb0zL+05uxQ@mail.gmail.com>	<53C18A99.7000001@msapiro.net>	<CAMwA6Z7OdP4+9sq34z2NeVb-tNXkabafP+sOVpGYj0L1WtVzOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADbGg-Naya2LXNDH4Jcr4AETMHEBBDN+w5DTSnpuJEe_xbfmXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53C1BC72.4080600@msapiro.net>

On 07/12/2014 02:28 PM, billy noah wrote:
> I'm not sure if this makes any difference but you'll want to make sure
> you have spf records & dkim set up for your mailserver.  I had some
> troubles with messages being discarded by gmai, hotmail and others
> before I got this set up properly.  On the other hand, if some messages
> are going through at all then I'm not sure if this would have much
> effect.  In any event it's recommended.


It is good practice and helps with delivery of some mail, but it has no
effect on messages being rejected for DMARC policy reasons as the domain
of your server's SPF and DKIM do not 'align' with the domain of the
From: address.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jul 13 00:56:54 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 15:56:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman message IDs? Disappearing Posts
In-Reply-To: <CAMwA6Z7OdP4+9sq34z2NeVb-tNXkabafP+sOVpGYj0L1WtVzOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMwA6Z7MAg3nop2+FYKKetWnioC7E-0ayiwPNUyjb0zL+05uxQ@mail.gmail.com>	<53C18A99.7000001@msapiro.net>
 <CAMwA6Z7OdP4+9sq34z2NeVb-tNXkabafP+sOVpGYj0L1WtVzOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53C1BD36.3020109@msapiro.net>

On 07/12/2014 02:10 PM, Steven Owens wrote:
> 
> Doing some more googling, it looks like a lot of spam filtering /
> blocking policies changed recently.  I guess I need to study up.  If
> you have any suggestions for where to start, I'm all ears (well,
> eyes).


There is an overwhelming amount of discussion in the archives of this
list at
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2014-April/thread.html>
in threads with subjects mentioning DMARC and yahoo.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Jul 13 02:23:22 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 09:23:22 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman message IDs? Disappearing Posts
In-Reply-To: <CAMwA6Z7OdP4+9sq34z2NeVb-tNXkabafP+sOVpGYj0L1WtVzOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMwA6Z7MAg3nop2+FYKKetWnioC7E-0ayiwPNUyjb0zL+05uxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C18A99.7000001@msapiro.net>
 <CAMwA6Z7OdP4+9sq34z2NeVb-tNXkabafP+sOVpGYj0L1WtVzOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87ha2myumd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Steven Owens writes:

 > Also, confusing the issue was the fact that my gmail account is
 > receiving other list messages, but not list messages from those users,
 > and there was no sign of a bounce from gmail.  However, I did some
 > googling and apparently it's not unknown for gmail to silently discard
 > messages... sigh.

I sympathize with your desire for more information, but it's not that
simple.

A silent discard (or with report to DMARC Author Domain, not you or
author, if requested by that domain) is correct and courteous behavior
if Google can't confirm origin of your message.

Otherwise the bounces produce backscatter.  Spammers are known to fake
every header under the sun, but they can't fake SPF or DKIM.[1]  It is
not known precisely what Google's criteria are, but we do know that
Google ignores DMARC p=reject for at least some mailing lists.
However, I suspect that they want crypto proof of origin -- that means
they can send the bounce to somebody who provably handled the message.
Without DKIM or SPF, anywhere they send the bounce might be based on a
spoofed address.

So the question posed elsewhere about whether your site provides DKIM
and SPF, or not, becomes important.  If not, you should do so as soon
as possible -- that's the best way to improve reliability of delivery
and receive bounces.

 > I was going to ask if there's a log level setting that I can turn up,
 > but google shows you replying to a similar request with "no" :-).

What are you hoping to see logged?  Maybe it could be added.


Footnotes: 
[1]  Of course they sometimes can and do suborn the hosts that provide
the signatures.  I'm excluding that from "fake".


From stevenjowens at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 20:04:13 2014
From: stevenjowens at gmail.com (Steven Owens)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 14:04:13 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST, FROM_IS_LIST and
	http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=17891458
Message-ID: <CAMwA6Z4YRCV+54if587Vio0X6nH96zAq0VZ87KBj5RDB-AY5Bw@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

A suggestion, you might want to change this page:

http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=17891458

...to something like:

"If you have Mailman 2.1.16 or newer, set

ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST = Yes

in mm_cfg.py and then restart mailman.  The from_is_list setting will
then appear on the Admin / General page.  Set the list's from_is_list
setting to either [...]"

I didn't want to edit mm_cfg.py and restart mailman until I knew what
I needed to change for from_is_list.  I did a fair bit of googling and
tail chasing, only finding discussions about ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST, until
I found a page (the dreamhost mailman wiki) that explicitly said
from_is_list should show up on General/Admin.  Then I guessed that
editing mm_cfg.py and restarting might make it show up.






-- 
Steven J. Owens
stevenjowens at gmail.com
puff at darksleep.com
412-401-8060

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 14 00:52:34 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 15:52:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST, FROM_IS_LIST and
	http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=17891458
In-Reply-To: <CAMwA6Z4YRCV+54if587Vio0X6nH96zAq0VZ87KBj5RDB-AY5Bw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMwA6Z4YRCV+54if587Vio0X6nH96zAq0VZ87KBj5RDB-AY5Bw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53C30DB2.10405@msapiro.net>

On 07/13/2014 11:04 AM, Steven Owens wrote:
> 
> A suggestion, you might want to change this page:
> 
> http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=17891458
> 
> ...to something like:
> 
> "If you have Mailman 2.1.16 or newer, set
> 
> ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST = Yes
> 
> in mm_cfg.py and then restart mailman.  The from_is_list setting will
> then appear on the Admin / General page.  Set the list's from_is_list
> setting to either [...]"

I have changed it to

If you have Mailman 2.1.16 or newer, set

ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST = Yes

in mm_cfg.py and then set the list's from_is_list setting on the web
admin General Options page to either 'Mung From' or 'Wrap Message'. Even
though you will see and can set the setting in the web admin GUI, it is
still necessary to restart Mailman after changing mm_cfg.py for the
setting to be effective.

Thanks for the input.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stevenjowens at gmail.com  Mon Jul 14 02:48:06 2014
From: stevenjowens at gmail.com (Steven Owens)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 20:48:06 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST, FROM_IS_LIST and
	http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=17891458
In-Reply-To: <53C30DB2.10405@msapiro.net>
References: <CAMwA6Z4YRCV+54if587Vio0X6nH96zAq0VZ87KBj5RDB-AY5Bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C30DB2.10405@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAMwA6Z7rKfuDsEBxb_J2Bn9LzzC621XiuTCbdwvvLZ2R=23c=w@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> On 07/13/2014 11:04 AM, Steven Owens wrote:
>>
>> A suggestion, you might want to change this page:
>>
>> http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=17891458
>>
>> ...to something like:
>>
>> "If you have Mailman 2.1.16 or newer, set
>>
>> ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST = Yes
>>
>> in mm_cfg.py and then restart mailman.  The from_is_list setting will
>> then appear on the Admin / General page.  Set the list's from_is_list
>> setting to either [...]"
>
> I have changed it to
>
> If you have Mailman 2.1.16 or newer, set
>
> ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST = Yes
>
> in mm_cfg.py and then set the list's from_is_list setting on the web
> admin General Options page to either 'Mung From' or 'Wrap Message'. Even
> though you will see and can set the setting in the web admin GUI, it is
> still necessary to restart Mailman after changing mm_cfg.py for the
> setting to be effective.

To be clear, are you saying that the from_is_list will appear as soon
as you save the changed copy of mm_cfg-py, regardless of whether you
restart mailman or not?

> Thanks for the input.

Thanks for the awesome software.

-- 
Steven J. Owens
stevenjowens at gmail.com
puff at darksleep.com
412-401-8060

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 14 03:01:26 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 18:01:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST, FROM_IS_LIST and
	http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=17891458
In-Reply-To: <CAMwA6Z7rKfuDsEBxb_J2Bn9LzzC621XiuTCbdwvvLZ2R=23c=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMwA6Z4YRCV+54if587Vio0X6nH96zAq0VZ87KBj5RDB-AY5Bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C30DB2.10405@msapiro.net>
 <CAMwA6Z7rKfuDsEBxb_J2Bn9LzzC621XiuTCbdwvvLZ2R=23c=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53C32BE6.1040502@msapiro.net>

On 07/13/2014 05:48 PM, Steven Owens wrote:
> 
> To be clear, are you saying that the from_is_list will appear as soon
> as you save the changed copy of mm_cfg-py, regardless of whether you
> restart mailman or not?


Yes, I'm saying that and that you will be able to set from_is_list via
the web GUI as soon as you have updated mm_cfg.py with
"ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST = Yes", but you still have to restart Mailman before
the setting becomes effective.

The reason for this is the code which processes the from_is_list setting
also checks the ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST setting and this code is in a handler
which runs as part of IncomingRunner which is a persistent process and
which won't re-import mm_cfg unless Mailman is restarted, but the web
admin CGI is a new process invoked by the web server for each
interaction, so it always gets the current mm_cfg.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stevenjowens at gmail.com  Mon Jul 14 03:59:22 2014
From: stevenjowens at gmail.com (Steven Owens)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 21:59:22 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST, FROM_IS_LIST and
	http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=17891458
In-Reply-To: <53C32BE6.1040502@msapiro.net>
References: <CAMwA6Z4YRCV+54if587Vio0X6nH96zAq0VZ87KBj5RDB-AY5Bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C30DB2.10405@msapiro.net>
 <CAMwA6Z7rKfuDsEBxb_J2Bn9LzzC621XiuTCbdwvvLZ2R=23c=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C32BE6.1040502@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAMwA6Z79SC6wqWHmMNTVogJGNDdcDknTez=uHiPSce42oRXa0g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 9:01 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> Yes, I'm saying that and that you will be able to set from_is_list via
> the web GUI as soon as you have updated mm_cfg.py with
> "ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST = Yes", but you still have to restart Mailman before
> the setting becomes effective.
>
> The reason for this is the code which processes the from_is_list setting
> also checks the ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST setting and this code is in a handler
> which runs as part of IncomingRunner which is a persistent process and
> which won't re-import mm_cfg unless Mailman is restarted, but the web
> admin CGI is a new process invoked by the web server for each
> interaction, so it always gets the current mm_cfg.

Cool.   Is there a doc anywhere that explains the mailman internals?

-- 
Steven J. Owens
stevenjowens at gmail.com
puff at darksleep.com
412-401-8060

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 14 04:26:05 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 19:26:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST, FROM_IS_LIST and
	http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=17891458
In-Reply-To: <CAMwA6Z79SC6wqWHmMNTVogJGNDdcDknTez=uHiPSce42oRXa0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMwA6Z4YRCV+54if587Vio0X6nH96zAq0VZ87KBj5RDB-AY5Bw@mail.gmail.com>	<53C30DB2.10405@msapiro.net>	<CAMwA6Z7rKfuDsEBxb_J2Bn9LzzC621XiuTCbdwvvLZ2R=23c=w@mail.gmail.com>	<53C32BE6.1040502@msapiro.net>
 <CAMwA6Z79SC6wqWHmMNTVogJGNDdcDknTez=uHiPSce42oRXa0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53C33FBD.30100@msapiro.net>

On 07/13/2014 06:59 PM, Steven Owens wrote:
>    Is there a doc anywhere that explains the mailman internals?


Not really for Mailman 2.1. There is a high level description of message
flow in comments in Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py, and you can learn a
lot by reading Mailman/Defaults.py, but the actual architecture is not
well documented.

Mailman 3 is much better in this respect. The distribution contains a
fairly complete set of reStructuredText docs for the core and these can
be processed by Sphinx into HTML, but it is enough different that an
understanding of Mailman 3 internals won't go far in helping understand 2.1.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Mon Jul 14 13:29:16 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 21:29:16 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
Message-ID: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>

As a moderator of our list, I know when messages are approved, and I'm seeing very erratic delivery times to my own address, which is on an Exchange server. They used to come through within a minute or so, now they can take 20 minutes or an hour.

I subscribed my gmail address for comparison, and am finding that the same list messages come through to it as quickly as ever.

>From those observations I would conclude that the Exchange server is having problems receiving external mail, but I've found that test messages sent from my gmail account to my Exchange address come through within seconds.

Can I assume this has nothing to do with mailman?

Peter Shute

Sent from my iPad

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Mon Jul 14 13:59:52 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 21:59:52 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
Message-ID: <474595FE-21BA-4EBD-AFC0-3C7EBAF60E38@nuw.org.au>

Just for interest, the email below took 15 minutes to arrive back. I'm sure they normally come back way faster than that, which makes me think it's a problem with the Exchange server.

But what sort of problem makes a server take longer to receive a list message than a direct message?

Peter Shute

Sent from my iPad

> On 14 Jul 2014, at 9:44 pm, "Peter Shute" <pshute at nuw.org.au> wrote:
> 
> As a moderator of our list, I know when messages are approved, and I'm seeing very erratic delivery times to my own address, which is on an Exchange server. They used to come through within a minute or so, now they can take 20 minutes or an hour.
> 
> I subscribed my gmail address for comparison, and am finding that the same list messages come through to it as quickly as ever.
> 
> From those observations I would conclude that the Exchange server is having problems receiving external mail, but I've found that test messages sent from my gmail account to my Exchange address come through within seconds.
> 
> Can I assume this has nothing to do with mailman?
> 
> Peter Shute
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pshute%40nuw.org.au

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 14 14:55:16 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 05:55:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
Message-ID: <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>

On July 14, 2014 4:29:16 AM PDT, Peter Shute <pshute at nuw.org.au> wrote:
>
>Can I assume this has nothing to do with mailman?


Look at the Received: headers in the received message to determine where the delay is.

Could grey listing be involved?



-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. [Unpaid endorsement]

From mlnospam at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 14 22:12:16 2014
From: mlnospam at yahoo.com (ML mail)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 13:12:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List owner account in Mailman3 (postorius)
Message-ID: <1405368736.16158.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hi,

How do I create a list owner account in the new Mailman3 web interface (postorius)?

Regards
ML


From pshute at nuw.org.au  Tue Jul 15 03:43:17 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 11:43:17 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>

Would grey listing show up in the headers? We haven't installed grey listing here, but who know what our anti spam does. If it's using it then it certainly isn't using it consistently. I can't see anything in the Exchange Message Tracking logs that shows anything unusual as they come in. They simply arrive late.

I dumped from Outlook the last few weeeks of send and received times for stuff I've received from this list. Some of the delays will be moderation time, but I can see that the number of messages delayed longer than a few minutes increased greatly on 11/7/14, but that there is still the occasional one that comes though within a minute.

These are the top two headers from a delayed message. Does this tell me anything other than it was received by the server upstream of mine 21 minutes before it was received by mine? If so then the delay could be before that upstream server sent it on, or while it waited for my server to accept it. If it tried several times, would that be shown in the headers?

Received: from s26.web-hosting.com (192.64.112.70) by NUWVICMS2.nuw.org.au
 (192.168.0.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.436.0; Fri, 11 Jul 2014
 09:11:01 +1000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37183 helo=server26.web-hosting.com)	by
 server26.web-hosting.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82)	(envelope-from
 <birding-aus-bounces at birding-aus.org>)	id 1X5NAu-001sA8-Fw; Thu, 10 Jul 2014
 18:50:48 -0400

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark at msapiro.net] 
> Sent: Monday, 14 July 2014 10:55 PM
> To: Peter Shute; GNU mailman users
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
> 
> On July 14, 2014 4:29:16 AM PDT, Peter Shute 
> <pshute at nuw.org.au> wrote:
> >
> >Can I assume this has nothing to do with mailman?
> 
> 
> Look at the Received: headers in the received message to 
> determine where the delay is.
> 
> Could grey listing be involved?
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. [Unpaid endorsement]
> 

From bsfinkel at att.net  Tue Jul 15 03:55:42 2014
From: bsfinkel at att.net (Barry S. Finkel)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 20:55:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net>

 >> -----Original Message-----
 >> From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark at msapiro.net]
 >> Sent: Monday, 14 July 2014 10:55 PM
 >> To: Peter Shute; GNU mailman users
 >> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
 >>
 >> On July 14, 2014 4:29:16 AM PDT, Peter Shute
 >> <pshute at nuw.org.au> wrote:
 >>>
 >>> Can I assume this has nothing to do with mailman?
 >>
 >>
 >> Look at the Received: headers in the received message to
 >> determine where the delay is.
 >>
 >> Could grey listing be involved?
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> --
 >> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
 >> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. [Unpaid endorsement]


On 7/14/2014 8:43 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
> Would grey listing show up in the headers? We haven't installed grey listing here, but who know what our anti spam does. If it's using it then it certainly isn't using it consistently. I can't see anything in the Exchange Message Tracking logs that shows anything unusual as they come in. They simply arrive late.
>
> I dumped from Outlook the last few weeeks of send and received times for stuff I've received from this list. Some of the delays will be moderation time, but I can see that the number of messages delayed longer than a few minutes increased greatly on 11/7/14, but that there is still the occasional one that comes though within a minute.
>
> These are the top two headers from a delayed message. Does this tell me anything other than it was received by the server upstream of mine 21 minutes before it was received by mine? If so then the delay could be before that upstream server sent it on, or while it waited for my server to accept it. If it tried several times, would that be shown in the headers?
>
> Received: from s26.web-hosting.com (192.64.112.70) by NUWVICMS2.nuw.org.au
>   (192.168.0.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.436.0; Fri, 11 Jul 2014
>   09:11:01 +1000
> Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37183 helo=server26.web-hosting.com)	by
>   server26.web-hosting.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82)	(envelope-from
>   <birding-aus-bounces at birding-aus.org>)	id 1X5NAu-001sA8-Fw; Thu, 10 Jul 2014
>   18:50:48 -0400


The server26 machine accepted the mail from localhost at 18:50:48 .
The NUWVICMS2 machine accepted the mail from server26 at 09:11:01
The time difference is 9:12 + 11:01 = 20:12.  Twenty minutes seems
a long time for greylisting.  You would have to look at the mail logs
from the NUWVICMS2 machine to see what it was doing from 08:50 until
09:11 (GMT+1000) to know why the mail was delayed.  Also, the logs
on the server16 machine would probably tell if server26 tried an earlier
connection to the NUWVICMS2 machine.

--Barry Finkel

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 15 04:59:16 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 19:59:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net>
Message-ID: <53C49904.7070503@msapiro.net>

On 07/14/2014 06:55 PM, Barry S. Finkel wrote:

> On 7/14/2014 8:43 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
>> Would grey listing show up in the headers? We haven't installed grey
>> listing here, but who know what our anti spam does.


Greylisting may or may not show in headers depending on the software
doing it. For example, Postgrey adds a header like

X-Greylist: delayed 427 seconds by postgrey-1.34 at sbh16.songbird.com;
 Sat, 12 Jul 2014 18:14:34 PDT


>> If it's using it
>> then it certainly isn't using it consistently. I can't see anything in
>> the Exchange Message Tracking logs that shows anything unusual as they
>> come in. They simply arrive late.


See below.


>> I dumped from Outlook the last few weeeks of send and received times
>> for stuff I've received from this list. Some of the delays will be
>> moderation time, but I can see that the number of messages delayed
>> longer than a few minutes increased greatly on 11/7/14, but that there
>> is still the occasional one that comes though within a minute.


This could be due to greylisting. Intelligent greylisting keeps track of
sending servers, and after a server has successfully retried a small
number of messages, there is no point in further greylisting that server
because the server is known to retry.


>> These are the top two headers from a delayed message. Does this tell
>> me anything other than it was received by the server upstream of mine
>> 21 minutes before it was received by mine? If so then the delay could
>> be before that upstream server sent it on, or while it waited for my
>> server to accept it. If it tried several times, would that be shown in
>> the headers?


You are correct, the delay was in transmission from the upstream server
to your exchange server. The headers tell you nothing more than that.

However, in this case, if greylisting is involved, it is your exchange
server doing it and there should be evidence in the exchange server's
logs of the initial connect and temporary reject at about the time the
upstream server received the message and initially tried to relay it.

Of course, there can be other reasons such as network issues why the
sending server's initial sending attempt failed, and these may not be
logged in your server. You'd have to see the logs of the sending server
to know what happened and why in these cases.

...
> Twenty minutes seems
> a long time for greylisting.


There are two times involved in greylisting. The first is the recipient
(greylisting) servers "early retry" time, i.e. the time before which the
server says this retry is too soon. That is typically short, on the
order of 5 minutes.

The second is the delay before the sending server retries. This depends
on the retry strategy of the sending server and can easily exceed 20
minutes.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Tue Jul 15 05:07:25 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 13:07:25 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <53C49904.7070503@msapiro.net>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net> <53C49904.7070503@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A8@nuwvicms2>

Thanks for that, Mark. I've discovered one possible reason - we're low on space on our Exchange server, which caused it to process external incoming mail erratically. The free space limit before delays on our old server was 1GB, the new one is higher than I expected at 2.7GB (I never knew it was a percentage of total disk space).

This doesn't explain though why SOME external mail (including most but not all from this list) was coming in quickly though. Might just be a coincidence. We've cleared some space, so I'll know if this was the problem when the next list message arrives.

Peter Shute

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mailman-Users 
> [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+pshute=nuw.org.au at python.org] 
> On Behalf Of Mark Sapiro
> Sent: Tuesday, 15 July 2014 12:59 PM
> To: mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
> 
> On 07/14/2014 06:55 PM, Barry S. Finkel wrote:
> 
> > On 7/14/2014 8:43 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
> >> Would grey listing show up in the headers? We haven't 
> installed grey 
> >> listing here, but who know what our anti spam does.
> 
> 
> Greylisting may or may not show in headers depending on the 
> software doing it. For example, Postgrey adds a header like
> 
> X-Greylist: delayed 427 seconds by postgrey-1.34 at 
> sbh16.songbird.com;  Sat, 12 Jul 2014 18:14:34 PDT
> 
> 
> >> If it's using it
> >> then it certainly isn't using it consistently. I can't see 
> anything 
> >> in the Exchange Message Tracking logs that shows anything 
> unusual as 
> >> they come in. They simply arrive late.
> 
> 
> See below.
> 
> 
> >> I dumped from Outlook the last few weeeks of send and 
> received times 
> >> for stuff I've received from this list. Some of the delays will be 
> >> moderation time, but I can see that the number of messages delayed 
> >> longer than a few minutes increased greatly on 11/7/14, but that 
> >> there is still the occasional one that comes though within 
> a minute.
> 
> 
> This could be due to greylisting. Intelligent greylisting 
> keeps track of sending servers, and after a server has 
> successfully retried a small number of messages, there is no 
> point in further greylisting that server because the server 
> is known to retry.
> 
> 
> >> These are the top two headers from a delayed message. Does 
> this tell 
> >> me anything other than it was received by the server 
> upstream of mine
> >> 21 minutes before it was received by mine? If so then the 
> delay could 
> >> be before that upstream server sent it on, or while it 
> waited for my 
> >> server to accept it. If it tried several times, would that 
> be shown 
> >> in the headers?
> 
> 
> You are correct, the delay was in transmission from the 
> upstream server to your exchange server. The headers tell you 
> nothing more than that.
> 
> However, in this case, if greylisting is involved, it is your 
> exchange server doing it and there should be evidence in the 
> exchange server's logs of the initial connect and temporary 
> reject at about the time the upstream server received the 
> message and initially tried to relay it.
> 
> Of course, there can be other reasons such as network issues 
> why the sending server's initial sending attempt failed, and 
> these may not be logged in your server. You'd have to see the 
> logs of the sending server to know what happened and why in 
> these cases.
> 
> ...
> > Twenty minutes seems
> > a long time for greylisting.
> 
> 
> There are two times involved in greylisting. The first is the 
> recipient
> (greylisting) servers "early retry" time, i.e. the time 
> before which the server says this retry is too soon. That is 
> typically short, on the order of 5 minutes.
> 
> The second is the delay before the sending server retries. 
> This depends on the retry strategy of the sending server and 
> can easily exceed 20 minutes.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: 
> http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pshute%4
0nuw.org.au
> 

From billc_lists at greenbuilder.com  Tue Jul 15 05:45:47 2014
From: billc_lists at greenbuilder.com (Bill Christensen)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 22:45:47 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Group mismatch again.
In-Reply-To: <53C0728F.7020403@msapiro.net>
References: <53BED7D9.1050603@greenbuilder.com> <53C0728F.7020403@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <53C4A3EB.7090305@greenbuilder.com>

On 7/11/14 6:26 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 07/10/2014 11:13 AM, Bill Christensen wrote:
>> The setup:  Moving from Mac OS 10.8.5 to 10.9.4, on a MAMP setup,
>> everything installed using MacPorts.  Upgrading MySQL, PHP, and
>> PostgreSQL in the process.  MacPorts hasn't upgraded Mailman beyond
>> 2.1.13 (a separate issue I may want to address later).  Right now I'm
>> doing test runs on a backup to make sure all the pieces and parts will
>> work properly when I do the update for real.  I have all the other parts
>> in place but I'm now getting the dreaded group mismatch error from Mailman.
>>
>> When I first installed everything I installed Mailman before PostgreSQL,
>> and the feedback told me that I needed either to compile Mailman as
>> --with-mail-gid=postgresql or change the mail server (standard Mac
>> installation of Postfix) to run as group _mailman.  I uninstalled and
>> reinstalled Mailman and now it's telling me that I need to compile
>> Mailman as --with-mail-gid=staff.
>>
>> I changed the setting in MacPorts' file from --with-mail-gid=_mailman to
>> --with-mail-gid=staff and attempted to reinstall, but I'm getting an
>> error that it's "Unable to open port - invalid command name
>> '--with-mail-gid=staff'".
>>
>> Anyone have any ideas of where to go from here?
>
> This is really an Apple issue, at least the way you're going about it.
> Have you asked Apple?
>
> However, you say you (only) changed --with-mail-gid=_mailman to
> --with-mail-gid=staff, and whereas the install worked with
> --with-mail-gid=_mailman, after the change it complains "invalid command
> name '--with-mail-gid=staff'".
>
> I really know nothing about the OS X server Mailman or even where you
> made that change, but in 'standard' Mailman that would be an option to
> configure and configure would never make that exact complaint. Are you
> sure you didn't introduce an extraneous newline or similar that would
> cause --with-mail-gid=staff to be interpreted as a command rather than
> an option to a prior command?
>
Figured it out.  It was syntax problems:

First, I had added a comment as a note to myself within the 
configure_args block, so that if I needed to revert I'd have the exact 
line.  I should have known not to put it in the block.

After I moved the comment to before the block, I left the comment with a 
trailing "\", as that was at the end of the original line. 
Unfortunately, that threw things off also.   Removing the "\" got the 
installation working correctly and it's now up and running.

From turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp  Tue Jul 15 08:30:25 2014
From: turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 15:30:25 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net>
Message-ID: <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Barry S. Finkel writes:
 > On 7/14/2014 8:43 PM, Peter Shute wrote:

 > > Would grey listing show up in the headers? We haven't installed
 > > grey listing here, but who know what our anti spam does. If it's
 > > using it then it certainly isn't using it consistently. I can't
 > > see anything in the Exchange Message Tracking logs that shows
 > > anything unusual as they come in. They simply arrive late.

It might, depending on the receiving software.  My system shows this:

X-Greylist: IP, sender and recipient auto-whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.6 (mx.example.org [10.0.0.1]); Mon, 14 Jul 2014 21:57:46 -0400 (EDT)

 > > These are the top two headers from a delayed message. Does this
 > > tell me anything other than it was received by the server
 > > upstream of mine 21 minutes before it was received by mine?

Not that I can see.

 > > If so then the delay could be before that upstream server sent it
 > > on, or while it waited for my server to accept it.

Yes.

 > > If it tried several times, would that be shown in the headers?

Normally, no.

 > The server26 machine accepted the mail from localhost at 18:50:48 .
 > The NUWVICMS2 machine accepted the mail from server26 at 09:11:01
 > The time difference is 9:12 + 11:01 = 20:12.  Twenty minutes seems
 > a long time for greylisting.

Why?  My host will continue to refuse mail for 15 minutes before
autowhitelisting, but most mail gets delayed for 2-4 hours depending
on the retry cycle of the sending machine (the host doesn't get a lot
of mail from most sites).


 > You would have to look at the mail logs from the NUWVICMS2 machine
 > to see what it was doing from 08:50 until 09:11 (GMT+1000) to know
 > why the mail was delayed.  Also, the logs on the server16 machine
 > would probably tell if server26 tried an earlier connection to the
 > NUWVICMS2 machine.

This should also appear in the NUWVICMS2 machine logs if it was greylisting.

Steve

From sajan at parikh.io  Tue Jul 15 18:55:39 2014
From: sajan at parikh.io (Sajan Parikh)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 11:55:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interfaces and list addresses - different
	domains?
In-Reply-To: <53C4A3EB.7090305@greenbuilder.com>
References: <53BED7D9.1050603@greenbuilder.com> <53C0728F.7020403@msapiro.net>
 <53C4A3EB.7090305@greenbuilder.com>
Message-ID: <53C55D0B.5020209@parikh.io>

What's going to be the best way to configure all the web interfaces to 
run on a domain like lists.domain.com, but have all the list addresses 
by domain.com?

I couldn't find anything about this sort of setup in the docs. Maybe I 
didn't look hard enough?

I assume, I'll just have to change the aliases and forward the different 
domains to the lists, but will Mailman actually accept this?

Sajan Parikh



From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 15 23:26:22 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 14:26:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interfaces and list addresses - different
 domains?
In-Reply-To: <53C55D0B.5020209@parikh.io>
References: <53BED7D9.1050603@greenbuilder.com> <53C0728F.7020403@msapiro.net>
 <53C4A3EB.7090305@greenbuilder.com> <53C55D0B.5020209@parikh.io>
Message-ID: <53C59C7E.8000305@msapiro.net>

On 07/15/2014 09:55 AM, Sajan Parikh wrote:
> What's going to be the best way to configure all the web interfaces to
> run on a domain like lists.domain.com, but have all the list addresses
> by domain.com?
> 
> I couldn't find anything about this sort of setup in the docs. Maybe I
> didn't look hard enough?


I'm confused. If you want a single web domain and a single email domain,
this is the usual configuration. Just set the following in mm_cfg.py

DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.domain.com'
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'domain.com'
VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

Then run Mailman's

bin/withlist -a -r fix_url

To update the lists' web_page_url and host_name. See the FAQs at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/mIA9> and <http://wiki.list.org/x/gIA9>.


> I assume, I'll just have to change the aliases and forward the different
> domains to the lists, but will Mailman actually accept this?


Do you mean that you will have multiple domains of the form
lists.domain.com for web access and domain.com for email.

If so, you will need to put additional

add_virtualhost('lists.otherdomain1.com', 'otherdomain1.com')
add_virtualhost('lists.otherdomain2.com', 'otherdomain2.com')

lines following the

add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

line in mm_cfg.py and run commands like

bin/withlist -r fix_url list1 -u lists.otherdomain1.com

for each list with the appropriate -u web_host option for the list.

In any case, aliases use only the list name and probably don't need to
be changed, but if some of these domains are non-local, you may need
virtual mappings.

In order to advise you further, I would need to know more about your MTA
configuration and how it delivers to Mailman. Your mention of
lists.domain.com makes me think you might be using a debian/ubuntu
package. If so, and if you are using postfix_to_mailman.py, see the FAQ
at <http://wiki.list.org/x/EYDt>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From pablo at montepagano.com.ar  Thu Jul 17 00:18:18 2014
From: pablo at montepagano.com.ar (Pablo Montepagano)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 19:18:18 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help customizing VERP_CONFIRM_REGEXP
Message-ID: <CAKp2AQ=22Pfwt3Tax1-LmmeoCHC0TqenfgeZAe9UjpxXms2rOA@mail.gmail.com>

I have enabled in my server VERP_CONFIRMATIONS so that the subject of
email confirmations is more human-friendly. But I would also like to
change the format of the "From:" header of email confirmations.

Currently they follow the default value of VERP_CONFIRM_REGEXP. I've
been trying to change it so that I can get something like this:

From: Mailman <listaddr-confirm+cookie at example.org>


This is currently in my mm_cfg.py:

VERP_CONFIRM_REGEXP = r'(?s)^(.*<)?(?P<addr>.+)\+(?P<cookie>[^@+]+)@.*$'
VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes

Does anyone know how to do this?

I'm running mailman 2.1.13

Thanks in advance,

Pablo

From peter.brooks at kchclinics.com  Thu Jul 17 13:12:57 2014
From: peter.brooks at kchclinics.com (Peter Brooks)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 13:12:57 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re-formatting messages
Message-ID: <CAFtB7BSkQKZ9=AYLj7LaYxacByO8buFafsY8Yk5CTeuDPZfKnA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm using a mailing list for a very specific application. All the
e-mails arrive in a standard - but unfriendly format.

How do I reformat them? If I could filter the messages through a unix
script, that'd do the job perfectly. Is there a way to get mailman to
pass e-mails through a script before sending them?

What I'm actually trying to do is that the message arrives something like this:

"
Subject: Message from #343223 at 16:50 on 16/07/2014
Body:

Dear X,

Here is the from #343223 at 16:50 on 16/07/2014

J.Smith|Logged a message|Urgent|16:50 on
16/07/2014|Subject:Incident|Description:The machine is broken|
|How do I fix it?|Status:New|Telephone:01423435|e-mail:J-Smith at smiths.co.es|16:50
on 16/07/2014|Location:Head Office|
MessageID:343. at co.es.4212

"

What I'd like to turn this into is:

Subject: URGENT Incident - Logged by J.Smith at 16:50 on 16/07/2014
Message:

URGENT Incident - J.Smith - Telephone:01423435 e-mail:J-Smith at smiths.co.es
--------------------------------
The machine is broken
How do I fix it?
--------------------------------

Location: Head Office

"

What's the best way to achieve that?

All the messages have exactly the same format, so it'd be really easy
to write an awk filter to do this, and that'd be my preferred option -
but I've no idea where to put the script or how to ask mailman to use
it.

To complicate matters a little bit, I'm using a hosted machine, so I
have to do everything through CPANEL.

If this isn't possible, my next option would be to send the messages
to a machine I do have control over - so, if there's a way to do this
that needs root access then I'd like to know that too, because that's
plan C.

[My Plan A was to get the originating machine to send nicely formatted
messages in the first place, but I've not managed that and run out of
time..]

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul 17 16:21:27 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 07:21:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help customizing VERP_CONFIRM_REGEXP
In-Reply-To: <CAKp2AQ=22Pfwt3Tax1-LmmeoCHC0TqenfgeZAe9UjpxXms2rOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKp2AQ=22Pfwt3Tax1-LmmeoCHC0TqenfgeZAe9UjpxXms2rOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53C7DBE7.10809@msapiro.net>

On 07/16/2014 03:18 PM, Pablo Montepagano wrote:
> 
> Currently they follow the default value of VERP_CONFIRM_REGEXP. I've
> been trying to change it so that I can get something like this:
> 
> From: Mailman <listaddr-confirm+cookie at example.org>


That is what you get by default if VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes


> This is currently in my mm_cfg.py:
> 
> VERP_CONFIRM_REGEXP = r'(?s)^(.*<)?(?P<addr>.+)\+(?P<cookie>[^@+]+)@.*$'

Wht are you changing this in this way? It should work, but so should the
default. You should only need to change VERP_CONFIRM_REGEXp if you've
changed VERP_CONFIRM_FORMAT.


> VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes
> 
> Does anyone know how to do this?


I do not understand what the problem is. Are you not getting the From:
you want? If not, did you restart Mailman after changing mm_cfg.py?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul 17 16:32:47 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 07:32:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re-formatting messages
In-Reply-To: <CAFtB7BSkQKZ9=AYLj7LaYxacByO8buFafsY8Yk5CTeuDPZfKnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFtB7BSkQKZ9=AYLj7LaYxacByO8buFafsY8Yk5CTeuDPZfKnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53C7DE8F.9040100@msapiro.net>

On 07/17/2014 04:12 AM, Peter Brooks wrote:
> 
> All the messages have exactly the same format, so it'd be really easy
> to write an awk filter to do this, and that'd be my preferred option -
> but I've no idea where to put the script or how to ask mailman to use
> it.


You need a custom handler for your list. See the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/l4A9>. The Python handler could do the
reformatting itself or call awk to do it.


> To complicate matters a little bit, I'm using a hosted machine, so I
> have to do everything through CPANEL.


Then you probably can't do this.


> If this isn't possible, my next option would be to send the messages
> to a machine I do have control over - so, if there's a way to do this
> that needs root access then I'd like to know that too, because that's
> plan C.


You could have the originating machine send the message to your machine
which would reformat it and send the reformatted message to the list on
the cPanel machine.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From lstone19 at stonejongleux.com  Thu Jul 17 16:37:01 2014
From: lstone19 at stonejongleux.com (Larry Stone)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 09:37:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re-formatting messages
In-Reply-To: <CAFtB7BSkQKZ9=AYLj7LaYxacByO8buFafsY8Yk5CTeuDPZfKnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFtB7BSkQKZ9=AYLj7LaYxacByO8buFafsY8Yk5CTeuDPZfKnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1407170932360.13264@server-imac.local>

On Thu, 17 Jul 2014, Peter Brooks wrote:

> I'm using a mailing list for a very specific application. All the
> e-mails arrive in a standard - but unfriendly format.
>
> How do I reformat them? If I could filter the messages through a unix
> script, that'd do the job perfectly. Is there a way to get mailman to
> pass e-mails through a script before sending them?

I'd say you're thinking about this the wrong way. I'd make sure they're 
formatted correctly before Mailman ever sees them. Instead of having your 
MTA deliver them to Mailman, change the alias to deliver them to a script 
to reformat them, then have the script send them to Mailman.

> To complicate matters a little bit, I'm using a hosted machine, so I
> have to do everything through CPANEL.

As Mark replied as I was writing, this is a problem.

> If this isn't possible, my next option would be to send the messages
> to a machine I do have control over - so, if there's a way to do this
> that needs root access then I'd like to know that too, because that's
> plan C.

See above - I think plan C is the way to go.

-- Larry Stone
    lstone19 at stonejongleux.com

From pablo at montepagano.com.ar  Thu Jul 17 17:28:57 2014
From: pablo at montepagano.com.ar (Pablo Montepagano)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 12:28:57 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help customizing VERP_CONFIRM_REGEXP
In-Reply-To: <53C7DBE7.10809@msapiro.net>
References: <CAKp2AQ=22Pfwt3Tax1-LmmeoCHC0TqenfgeZAe9UjpxXms2rOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C7DBE7.10809@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAKp2AQ=GxY8c_svvG=9AGJMyPSfUTormxXn59F0hyPNKm7LGKA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm sorry for not being clear. VERP_CONFIRM_REGEXP is set to the same
value that comes with Defaults.py

When confirmations are sent, the FROM header does not follow this
pattern "Mailman <listaddr-confirm+cookie at example.org>", it just has
the addres, i.e, "listaddr-confirm+cookie at example.org". I wolud like
to add the "Mailman <" to the beginning and ">" at the end.

Why? So that those who receive the invitation/confirmation email see a
human readable name in the "From" header.

Hope I'm being clear. Thanks!

On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> On 07/16/2014 03:18 PM, Pablo Montepagano wrote:
>>
>> Currently they follow the default value of VERP_CONFIRM_REGEXP. I've
>> been trying to change it so that I can get something like this:
>>
>> From: Mailman <listaddr-confirm+cookie at example.org>
>
>
> That is what you get by default if VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes
>
>
>> This is currently in my mm_cfg.py:
>>
>> VERP_CONFIRM_REGEXP = r'(?s)^(.*<)?(?P<addr>.+)\+(?P<cookie>[^@+]+)@.*$'
>
> Wht are you changing this in this way? It should work, but so should the
> default. You should only need to change VERP_CONFIRM_REGEXp if you've
> changed VERP_CONFIRM_FORMAT.
>
>
>> VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes
>>
>> Does anyone know how to do this?
>
>
> I do not understand what the problem is. Are you not getting the From:
> you want? If not, did you restart Mailman after changing mm_cfg.py?
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pablo%40montepagano.com.ar

From pknowles at tpnsolutions.com  Thu Jul 17 17:40:11 2014
From: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com (Peter Knowles)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 08:40:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mhonarc patch
Message-ID: <CAD=__t_R5TmsbxUmKXfL4Y-YGCFONpgzE-QhLhDBqWN8E8u=CA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Is anyone familiar with the "mhonarc" patch found at:

http://www.openinfo.co.uk/mm/patches/mhonarc/

It seems when applied to 2.1.8, it cannot seem to patch "Mailboxes.py" and
"Version.py".

During the patching process, here is the error produced:

Hunk #2 FAILED at 106.
1 out of 2 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file Mailman/Mailbox.py.rej

Hunk #1 FAILED at 39.
1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file Mailman/Version.py.rej

*** all other patching seems to work fine, and I've followed all
instructions on the website to the best of my knowledge including changing
the value of "DATA_FILE_VERSION" in the patch.

Any help in making this patch work would be super, as I've got clients on
my case about being able to use mhonarc once again. This patch was chosen
specifically because we're also using the "htdig" patch by the same author.

Best Regards,
Peter Knowles
TPN Solutions

Email: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com
Phone: 604-229-0715
Skype: tpnsupport
Website: http://www.tpnsolutions.com

From g17jimmy at gmail.com  Thu Jul 17 17:43:47 2014
From: g17jimmy at gmail.com (Jimmy)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 11:43:47 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] postfix errors
Message-ID: <CAG8E47R9N6c-XJFuDZVnQSwg5F5u2HvCae4KOWQGnSSbaBpDFQ@mail.gmail.com>

I am still working on this new mailman system and seeing these errors when
an email is sent to the system. I've googled the errors and haven't yet
found anything that helps. Any ideas? Thanks

2014-07-17T10:38:52.396296-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
connect from unknown[10.0.0.1]
2014-07-17T10:38:52.497048-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
790A84583: client=unknown[10.0.0.1]
2014-07-17T10:38:52.613030-04:00 listservhostname postfix/cleanup[13802]:
790A84583: message-id=<
7e1decc87c4844c18882f3a27eefa406 at CORPEXCHMBX10.listdomain.com>
2014-07-17T10:38:52.625741-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
790A84583: from=<username at listdomain.com>, size=5925, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
2014-07-17T10:38:52.635273-04:00 listservhostname postfix/pipe[13803]:
fatal: get_service_attr: unknown username: list
2014-07-17T10:38:52.666526-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
disconnect from unknown[10.0.0.1]
2014-07-17T10:38:53.637115-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
warning: private/mailman socket: malformed response
2014-07-17T10:38:53.637153-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
warning: transport mailman failure -- see a previous warning/fatal/panic
logfile record for the problem description
2014-07-17T10:38:53.638431-04:00 listservhostname postfix/master[13722]:
warning: process /usr/libexec/postfix/pipe pid 13803 exit status 1
2014-07-17T10:38:53.638453-04:00 listservhostname postfix/master[13722]:
warning: /usr/libexec/postfix/pipe: bad command startup -- throttling
2014-07-17T10:38:53.656307-04:00 listservhostname postfix/error[13805]:
790A84583: to=<systems-changelog at lists.listdomain.com>, relay=none,
delay=1.2, delays=0.14/1/0/0.01, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (unknown mail
transport error)
2014-07-17T10:39:42.687502-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
740AF107: from=<username at listdomain.com>, size=5114, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
2014-07-17T10:39:42.699454-04:00 listservhostname postfix/error[13805]:
740AF107: to=<systems-changelog at lists.listdomain.com>, relay=none,
delay=539, delays=539/0.01/0/0, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (unknown mail
transport error)

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Fri Jul 18 02:01:19 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 10:01:19 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net> <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>

Thanks for taking the time to reply to those points. Since my discovery and fixing of the diskspace problem that was causing Exchange to apply what it calls back pressure to incoming mail, the delays have continued. The disk space problem had only been adding to the problem, not causing it.

I've now enabled protocol logging on our Exchange server, a new world for me. I can see several possibly relevant events in yesterday's logs that look like this:
2014-07-17T07:02:03.914Z,NUWVICMS2\Default NUWVICMS2,08D145520008BC68,24,192.168.0.36:25,192.64.112.70:38732,>,550 5.7.1 Requested action not taken: message refused,

192.64.112.70 is the list's mail server, and I can see entries where mail has been delivered successfully from that address.

Googling that message found a few people blaming it on Symantec antispam, which we use here at work.

As a test, I subscribed myself a second time to the same list with a gmail address. I sent a test message to the list, and it came through to the gmail address within a minute or two, but took 66 minutes to reach my work address.

Then I subscribed a thrid time with an outlook.com address and sent another test message. Again it arrived in the gmail mailbox within a couple of minutes. It arrived in the outlook.com and my work mailboxes around the same time, 12 minutes later.

I believe outlook.com also used Symantec antispam, so this seems to be the common factor. It makes sense that this might suddenly start happening, coinciding with an antispam signature update.

But if the antispam software is refusing the messages, how do they eventually get through?

Peter Shute

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mailman-Users 
> [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+pshute=nuw.org.au at python.org] 
> On Behalf Of Stephen J. Turnbull
> Sent: Tuesday, 15 July 2014 4:30 PM
> To: Barry S. Finkel
> Cc: mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
> 
> Barry S. Finkel writes:
>  > On 7/14/2014 8:43 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
> 
>  > > Would grey listing show up in the headers? We haven't 
> installed  > > grey listing here, but who know what our anti 
> spam does. If it's  > > using it then it certainly isn't 
> using it consistently. I can't  > > see anything in the 
> Exchange Message Tracking logs that shows  > > anything 
> unusual as they come in. They simply arrive late.
> 
> It might, depending on the receiving software.  My system shows this:
> 
> X-Greylist: IP, sender and recipient auto-whitelisted, not 
> delayed by milter-greylist-1.6 (mx.example.org [10.0.0.1]); 
> Mon, 14 Jul 2014 21:57:46 -0400 (EDT)
> 
>  > > These are the top two headers from a delayed message. 
> Does this  > > tell me anything other than it was received by 
> the server  > > upstream of mine 21 minutes before it was 
> received by mine?
> 
> Not that I can see.
> 
>  > > If so then the delay could be before that upstream 
> server sent it  > > on, or while it waited for my server to accept it.
> 
> Yes.
> 
>  > > If it tried several times, would that be shown in the headers?
> 
> Normally, no.
> 
>  > The server26 machine accepted the mail from localhost at 18:50:48 .
>  > The NUWVICMS2 machine accepted the mail from server26 at 
> 09:11:01  > The time difference is 9:12 + 11:01 = 20:12.  
> Twenty minutes seems  > a long time for greylisting.
> 
> Why?  My host will continue to refuse mail for 15 minutes 
> before autowhitelisting, but most mail gets delayed for 2-4 
> hours depending on the retry cycle of the sending machine 
> (the host doesn't get a lot of mail from most sites).
> 
> 
>  > You would have to look at the mail logs from the NUWVICMS2 
> machine  > to see what it was doing from 08:50 until 09:11 
> (GMT+1000) to know  > why the mail was delayed.  Also, the 
> logs on the server16 machine  > would probably tell if 
> server26 tried an earlier connection to the  > NUWVICMS2 machine.
> 
> This should also appear in the NUWVICMS2 machine logs if it 
> was greylisting.
> 
> Steve
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: 
> http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pshute%4
0nuw.org.au
> 

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 18 03:20:33 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 18:20:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net> <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>

On 07/17/2014 05:01 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
> 
> I've now enabled protocol logging on our Exchange server, a new world for me. I can see several possibly relevant events in yesterday's logs that look like this:
> 2014-07-17T07:02:03.914Z,NUWVICMS2\Default NUWVICMS2,08D145520008BC68,24,192.168.0.36:25,192.64.112.70:38732,>,550 5.7.1 Requested action not taken: message refused,


This is a 550 (extended 5.7.,1) status which is a permanent failure.
This is a bounce and will (should) not be retried by the sending server.

I doubt that this specific log message has anything to do with your
delayed messages.


> But if the antispam software is refusing the messages, how do they eventually get through?


Exactly.

You could look at the logs on the 192.64.112.70 sending server to see
what that server did with this message after it was bounced by the
exchange server.

If the Mailman server is sending directly to the exchange server and
that is where the delays are occurring, you need to look at the MTA logs
of the Mailman server and see what's there relevant to sending failures
and resends.

But, this thread no longer has anything to do with Mailman. Perhaps you
could find another list/forum to discuss this that might be able to
provide more expertise in this area.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 18 04:53:02 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 19:53:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mhonarc patch
In-Reply-To: <CAD=__t_R5TmsbxUmKXfL4Y-YGCFONpgzE-QhLhDBqWN8E8u=CA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD=__t_R5TmsbxUmKXfL4Y-YGCFONpgzE-QhLhDBqWN8E8u=CA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53C88C0E.5090808@msapiro.net>

> 
> During the patching process, here is the error produced:


It would help if you actually provided the content of the .rej files.

Also, Are you really patching 2.1.8 or did you mean 2.1.18?


> Hunk #2 FAILED at 106.
> 1 out of 2 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file Mailman/Mailbox.py.rej


The 2.1.7-0.1.patch file I'm looking at which is the patch also for
2.1.8 is trying to replace

        mailbox.PortableUnixMailbox.__init__(self, fp, _archfactory(self))

with

        mailbox.UnixMailbox.__init__(self, fp, _archfactory(self))

and add a bunch of stuff following the definition of scrub. It looks OK
to me. Without seeing Mailman/Mailbox.py.rej and maybe
Mailman/Mailbox.py and/or Mailman/Mailbox.py.orig, I can't tell you what
the problem is.


> Hunk #1 FAILED at 39.
> 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file Mailman/Version.py.rej


This is almost certainly because your existing Mailman/Version.py file
has  Mailman/Version.py has DATA_FILE_VERSION = some number different
from what the patch expects.

All you need to do is manually edit Mailman/Version.py and set
DATA_FILE_VERSION = a number bigger than what it currently is, perhaps
by appending '.1' to the existing number if it's an integer or
incrementing the number if it's a decimal.


> *** all other patching seems to work fine, and I've followed all
> instructions on the website to the best of my knowledge including changing
> the value of "DATA_FILE_VERSION" in the patch.


Did you change the

-DATA_FILE_VERSION =

line to match what's currently in the file and the

+DATA_FILE_VERSION =

line to a larger number?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 18 05:46:18 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 20:46:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help customizing VERP_CONFIRM_REGEXP
In-Reply-To: <CAKp2AQ=GxY8c_svvG=9AGJMyPSfUTormxXn59F0hyPNKm7LGKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKp2AQ=22Pfwt3Tax1-LmmeoCHC0TqenfgeZAe9UjpxXms2rOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C7DBE7.10809@msapiro.net>
 <CAKp2AQ=GxY8c_svvG=9AGJMyPSfUTormxXn59F0hyPNKm7LGKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53C8988A.7080004@msapiro.net>

On 07/17/2014 08:28 AM, Pablo Montepagano wrote:
> 
> When confirmations are sent, the FROM header does not follow this
> pattern "Mailman <listaddr-confirm+cookie at example.org>", it just has
> the addres, i.e, "listaddr-confirm+cookie at example.org". I wolud like
> to add the "Mailman <" to the beginning and ">" at the end.


There are two ways to accomplish something like what you want. To do it
only in mm_cfg.py, there's no way to add the trailing '>', but you could set

VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes
VERP_CONFIRM_FORMAT = '(Mailman) %(addr)s+%(cookie)s'
VERP_CONFIRM_REGEXP =
 r'(?s)^\(Mailman\) (.*<)?(?P<addr>.+)\+(?P<cookie>[0-9a-f]{40})@.*$'

That last should all be on one line. Also the "[0-9a-f]{40}" instead of
"[^@+]+" is not a necessary change, but it fixes a problem if the list
name contains a '+'

The above will create a From header "(Mailman)
listaddr-confirm+cookie at example.org and the regexp will recognize it in
replies, although the two MUAs I tried (Thunderbird and Mutt) will
address the reply to "Mailman <listaddr-confirm+cookie at example.org>"
which will be recognized by the default regexp.

The other way involves editing Mailman/MailList.py and changing

    def GetConfirmEmail(self, cookie):
        return mm_cfg.VERP_CONFIRM_FORMAT % {
            'addr'  : '%s-confirm' % self.internal_name(),
            'cookie': cookie,
            } + '@' + self.host_name

to

    def GetConfirmEmail(self, cookie):
        return 'Mailman <' + mm_cfg.VERP_CONFIRM_FORMAT % {
            'addr'  : '%s-confirm' % self.internal_name(),
            'cookie': cookie,
            } + '@' + self.host_name + '>'

This will produce a From: of "Mailman
<listaddr-confirm+cookie at example.org>" which will be recognized by the
default regexp, so only

VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes

is needed in mm_cfg.py.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From pknowles at tpnsolutions.com  Fri Jul 18 09:10:34 2014
From: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com (Peter Knowles)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 00:10:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mhonarc patch
In-Reply-To: <53C88C0E.5090808@msapiro.net>
References: <CAD=__t_R5TmsbxUmKXfL4Y-YGCFONpgzE-QhLhDBqWN8E8u=CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C88C0E.5090808@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAD=__t-Jv+A3HkRiPAzG25xnM0Z2jHFuON5Eg2iRCtJ_jZQvUQ@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

First off, to clarify, yes we're using version 2.1.18-1.

Next, the "Version.py" issue has been resolved. I had forgotten to apply
the "modinc" prerequisite patch.

The only error that remains when applying the "mhonarc" patch is:

Hulk #2 FAILED at 106.
1 out of 2 hulks FAILED -- saving rejects to file Mailman/Mailbox.py.rej

*** Attached is a copy of "Mailbox.py.rej" ***

Thanks in advance!

Best Regards,
Peter Knowles
TPN Solutions

Email: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com
Phone: 604-229-0715
Skype: tpnsupport
Website: http://www.tpnsolutions.com


On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 7:53 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> >
> > During the patching process, here is the error produced:
>
>
> It would help if you actually provided the content of the .rej files.
>
> Also, Are you really patching 2.1.8 or did you mean 2.1.18?
>
>
> > Hunk #2 FAILED at 106.
> > 1 out of 2 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file Mailman/Mailbox.py.rej
>
>
> The 2.1.7-0.1.patch file I'm looking at which is the patch also for
> 2.1.8 is trying to replace
>
>         mailbox.PortableUnixMailbox.__init__(self, fp, _archfactory(self))
>
> with
>
>         mailbox.UnixMailbox.__init__(self, fp, _archfactory(self))
>
> and add a bunch of stuff following the definition of scrub. It looks OK
> to me. Without seeing Mailman/Mailbox.py.rej and maybe
> Mailman/Mailbox.py and/or Mailman/Mailbox.py.orig, I can't tell you what
> the problem is.
>
>
> > Hunk #1 FAILED at 39.
> > 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file Mailman/Version.py.rej
>
>
> This is almost certainly because your existing Mailman/Version.py file
> has  Mailman/Version.py has DATA_FILE_VERSION = some number different
> from what the patch expects.
>
> All you need to do is manually edit Mailman/Version.py and set
> DATA_FILE_VERSION = a number bigger than what it currently is, perhaps
> by appending '.1' to the existing number if it's an integer or
> incrementing the number if it's a decimal.
>
>
> > *** all other patching seems to work fine, and I've followed all
> > instructions on the website to the best of my knowledge including
> changing
> > the value of "DATA_FILE_VERSION" in the patch.
>
>
> Did you change the
>
> -DATA_FILE_VERSION =
>
> line to match what's currently in the file and the
>
> +DATA_FILE_VERSION =
>
> line to a larger number?
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pknowles%40tpnsolutions.com
>

From pablo at montepagano.com.ar  Fri Jul 18 15:03:32 2014
From: pablo at montepagano.com.ar (Pablo Montepagano)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 10:03:32 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help customizing VERP_CONFIRM_REGEXP
In-Reply-To: <53C8988A.7080004@msapiro.net>
References: <CAKp2AQ=22Pfwt3Tax1-LmmeoCHC0TqenfgeZAe9UjpxXms2rOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C7DBE7.10809@msapiro.net>
 <CAKp2AQ=GxY8c_svvG=9AGJMyPSfUTormxXn59F0hyPNKm7LGKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C8988A.7080004@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAKp2AQkkAHg-hcF78P_MkSrfS6djO6J+wY1r-ko7gZyhbU0mEw@mail.gmail.com>

THANK YOU! Worked like a charm. I owe you a beer, at least. :)

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 12:46 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> On 07/17/2014 08:28 AM, Pablo Montepagano wrote:
>>
>> When confirmations are sent, the FROM header does not follow this
>> pattern "Mailman <listaddr-confirm+cookie at example.org>", it just has
>> the addres, i.e, "listaddr-confirm+cookie at example.org". I wolud like
>> to add the "Mailman <" to the beginning and ">" at the end.
>
>
> There are two ways to accomplish something like what you want. To do it
> only in mm_cfg.py, there's no way to add the trailing '>', but you could set
>
> VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes
> VERP_CONFIRM_FORMAT = '(Mailman) %(addr)s+%(cookie)s'
> VERP_CONFIRM_REGEXP =
>  r'(?s)^\(Mailman\) (.*<)?(?P<addr>.+)\+(?P<cookie>[0-9a-f]{40})@.*$'
>
> That last should all be on one line. Also the "[0-9a-f]{40}" instead of
> "[^@+]+" is not a necessary change, but it fixes a problem if the list
> name contains a '+'
>
> The above will create a From header "(Mailman)
> listaddr-confirm+cookie at example.org and the regexp will recognize it in
> replies, although the two MUAs I tried (Thunderbird and Mutt) will
> address the reply to "Mailman <listaddr-confirm+cookie at example.org>"
> which will be recognized by the default regexp.
>
> The other way involves editing Mailman/MailList.py and changing
>
>     def GetConfirmEmail(self, cookie):
>         return mm_cfg.VERP_CONFIRM_FORMAT % {
>             'addr'  : '%s-confirm' % self.internal_name(),
>             'cookie': cookie,
>             } + '@' + self.host_name
>
> to
>
>     def GetConfirmEmail(self, cookie):
>         return 'Mailman <' + mm_cfg.VERP_CONFIRM_FORMAT % {
>             'addr'  : '%s-confirm' % self.internal_name(),
>             'cookie': cookie,
>             } + '@' + self.host_name + '>'
>
> This will produce a From: of "Mailman
> <listaddr-confirm+cookie at example.org>" which will be recognized by the
> default regexp, so only
>
> VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes
>
> is needed in mm_cfg.py.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pablo%40montepagano.com.ar

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 18 19:26:46 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 10:26:46 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mhonarc patch
In-Reply-To: <CAD=__t-Jv+A3HkRiPAzG25xnM0Z2jHFuON5Eg2iRCtJ_jZQvUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD=__t_R5TmsbxUmKXfL4Y-YGCFONpgzE-QhLhDBqWN8E8u=CA@mail.gmail.com>	<53C88C0E.5090808@msapiro.net>
 <CAD=__t-Jv+A3HkRiPAzG25xnM0Z2jHFuON5Eg2iRCtJ_jZQvUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53C958D6.7030200@msapiro.net>

On 07/18/2014 12:10 AM, Peter Knowles wrote:
> 
> The only error that remains when applying the "mhonarc" patch is:
> 
> Hulk #2 FAILED at 106.
> 1 out of 2 hulks FAILED -- saving rejects to file Mailman/Mailbox.py.rej


The problem with the patch is that the file it is based on ended at the
point where the last hunk was applied, and a new method was subsequently
added to Mailbox.py which wasn't taken into account in the patch.

The attached Mailbox.py.patch should work with possible line number
shifts. It is intended to be applied to your previously patched
Mailbox.py with the first hunk of the patch already applied.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
-------------- next part --------------
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Type: text/x-diff
Size: 5982 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/attachments/20140718/94ec682e/attachment.patch>

From pknowles at tpnsolutions.com  Fri Jul 18 19:40:32 2014
From: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com (Peter Knowles)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 10:40:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mhonarc patch
In-Reply-To: <53C958D6.7030200@msapiro.net>
References: <CAD=__t_R5TmsbxUmKXfL4Y-YGCFONpgzE-QhLhDBqWN8E8u=CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C88C0E.5090808@msapiro.net>
 <CAD=__t-Jv+A3HkRiPAzG25xnM0Z2jHFuON5Eg2iRCtJ_jZQvUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C958D6.7030200@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAD=__t9BtE-YUVQ3U0Jo35o801suW+hZn4o0SM7QuQk-1Szx6Q@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

So if I understand correctly, based on your patch, I apply things in the
following order:

1. modinc.patch
2. mhonarc.patch
3. Mailbox.py.patch

*** the latter patch addressing what the "mhonarc" patch didn't due to
Mailman changes that were made post-patch release. ***


Best Regards,
Peter Knowles
TPN Solutions

Email: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com
Phone: 604-229-0715
Skype: tpnsupport
Website: http://www.tpnsolutions.com


On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 07/18/2014 12:10 AM, Peter Knowles wrote:
> >
> > The only error that remains when applying the "mhonarc" patch is:
> >
> > Hulk #2 FAILED at 106.
> > 1 out of 2 hulks FAILED -- saving rejects to file Mailman/Mailbox.py.rej
>
>
> The problem with the patch is that the file it is based on ended at the
> point where the last hunk was applied, and a new method was subsequently
> added to Mailbox.py which wasn't taken into account in the patch.
>
> The attached Mailbox.py.patch should work with possible line number
> shifts. It is intended to be applied to your previously patched
> Mailbox.py with the first hunk of the patch already applied.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 18 19:50:31 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 10:50:31 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mhonarc patch
In-Reply-To: <CAD=__t9BtE-YUVQ3U0Jo35o801suW+hZn4o0SM7QuQk-1Szx6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD=__t_R5TmsbxUmKXfL4Y-YGCFONpgzE-QhLhDBqWN8E8u=CA@mail.gmail.com>	<53C88C0E.5090808@msapiro.net>	<CAD=__t-Jv+A3HkRiPAzG25xnM0Z2jHFuON5Eg2iRCtJ_jZQvUQ@mail.gmail.com>	<53C958D6.7030200@msapiro.net>
 <CAD=__t9BtE-YUVQ3U0Jo35o801suW+hZn4o0SM7QuQk-1Szx6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53C95E67.6040106@msapiro.net>

On 07/18/2014 10:40 AM, Peter Knowles wrote:
> 
> So if I understand correctly, based on your patch, I apply things in the
> following order:
> 
> 1. modinc.patch
> 2. mhonarc.patch
> 3. Mailbox.py.patch
> 
> *** the latter patch addressing what the "mhonarc" patch didn't due to
> Mailman changes that were made post-patch release. ***


That is correct.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From pknowles at tpnsolutions.com  Fri Jul 18 19:59:33 2014
From: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com (Peter Knowles)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 10:59:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mhonarc patch
In-Reply-To: <53C95E67.6040106@msapiro.net>
References: <CAD=__t_R5TmsbxUmKXfL4Y-YGCFONpgzE-QhLhDBqWN8E8u=CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C88C0E.5090808@msapiro.net>
 <CAD=__t-Jv+A3HkRiPAzG25xnM0Z2jHFuON5Eg2iRCtJ_jZQvUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C958D6.7030200@msapiro.net>
 <CAD=__t9BtE-YUVQ3U0Jo35o801suW+hZn4o0SM7QuQk-1Szx6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C95E67.6040106@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAD=__t8knJHMB6MvkK8jjV0RwEjtWP5UbNu-+uHs5i6b4e9p=A@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

I hate to be a pest.

1. I saved your patch in "/usr/src"

2. I enter the folder "/usr/src/mailman-2.1.18-1"

3. I run "patch -p1 < ../Mailbox.py.patch"

4. The following message is presented:

(Stripping trailing CRs from patch.)
can't find file to patch at input line 3
Perhaps you used the wrong -p or --strip option?
The text leading up to this was:
-----------------------------------------------------
|--- Mailbox.py 2013-12-13 16:25:41.417368781 -0800
|--- Mailbox.py.new 2014-07-18 10:11:48.645854753 -0700
-----------------------------------------------------
File to patch:

Best Regards,
Peter Knowles
TPN Solutions

Email: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com
Phone: 604-229-0715
Skype: tpnsupport
Website: http://www.tpnsolutions.com


On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 10:50 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 07/18/2014 10:40 AM, Peter Knowles wrote:
> >
> > So if I understand correctly, based on your patch, I apply things in the
> > following order:
> >
> > 1. modinc.patch
> > 2. mhonarc.patch
> > 3. Mailbox.py.patch
> >
> > *** the latter patch addressing what the "mhonarc" patch didn't due to
> > Mailman changes that were made post-patch release. ***
>
>
> That is correct.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 18 20:12:33 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 11:12:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mhonarc patch
In-Reply-To: <CAD=__t8knJHMB6MvkK8jjV0RwEjtWP5UbNu-+uHs5i6b4e9p=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD=__t_R5TmsbxUmKXfL4Y-YGCFONpgzE-QhLhDBqWN8E8u=CA@mail.gmail.com>	<53C88C0E.5090808@msapiro.net>	<CAD=__t-Jv+A3HkRiPAzG25xnM0Z2jHFuON5Eg2iRCtJ_jZQvUQ@mail.gmail.com>	<53C958D6.7030200@msapiro.net>	<CAD=__t9BtE-YUVQ3U0Jo35o801suW+hZn4o0SM7QuQk-1Szx6Q@mail.gmail.com>	<53C95E67.6040106@msapiro.net>
 <CAD=__t8knJHMB6MvkK8jjV0RwEjtWP5UbNu-+uHs5i6b4e9p=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53C96391.9060601@msapiro.net>

On 07/18/2014 10:59 AM, Peter Knowles wrote:
> Mark,
> 
> I hate to be a pest.
> 
> 1. I saved your patch in "/usr/src"
> 
> 2. I enter the folder "/usr/src/mailman-2.1.18-1"
> 
> 3. I run "patch -p1 < ../Mailbox.py.patch"
> 
> 4. The following message is presented:
> 
> (Stripping trailing CRs from patch.)
> can't find file to patch at input line 3
> Perhaps you used the wrong -p or --strip option?


It's partly my fault as I didn't have the same paths as the other
patches, but at steps 2 and 3 you need

cd /usr/src/mailman-2.1.18-1/Mailman
patch -p0 < ../../Mailbox.py.patch

Or you could just do

patch Mailman/Mailbox.py < ../Mailbox.py.patch
in the /usr/src/mailman-2.1.18-1 directory.

See 'man patch'

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From pknowles at tpnsolutions.com  Fri Jul 18 20:20:34 2014
From: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com (Peter Knowles)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 11:20:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mhonarc patch
In-Reply-To: <53C96391.9060601@msapiro.net>
References: <CAD=__t_R5TmsbxUmKXfL4Y-YGCFONpgzE-QhLhDBqWN8E8u=CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C88C0E.5090808@msapiro.net>
 <CAD=__t-Jv+A3HkRiPAzG25xnM0Z2jHFuON5Eg2iRCtJ_jZQvUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C958D6.7030200@msapiro.net>
 <CAD=__t9BtE-YUVQ3U0Jo35o801suW+hZn4o0SM7QuQk-1Szx6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C95E67.6040106@msapiro.net>
 <CAD=__t8knJHMB6MvkK8jjV0RwEjtWP5UbNu-+uHs5i6b4e9p=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <53C96391.9060601@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAD=__t9z4t1Pp_r6Haju6qpz8v28O3nv+++VBg0UA_GwvtDy_g@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

One last question, as I'm a bit of novice when it comes to the "patch"
command.

When I run the other patches, it'd report something like "Hunk #1 succeed
at 12 (offset -1 lines).", compared to when I ran your patch (as directed
above) it only spits out "patching file Mailman/Mailbox.py" with no
indication whether it was successful or not.

My question regarding this is, is this simply due to the way your patch was
written, or does the "Hunk #X succeeded" message get generated by the
"patch" program?

Best Regards,
Peter Knowles
TPN Solutions

Email: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com
Phone: 604-229-0715
Skype: tpnsupport
Website: http://www.tpnsolutions.com


On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 11:12 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 07/18/2014 10:59 AM, Peter Knowles wrote:
> > Mark,
> >
> > I hate to be a pest.
> >
> > 1. I saved your patch in "/usr/src"
> >
> > 2. I enter the folder "/usr/src/mailman-2.1.18-1"
> >
> > 3. I run "patch -p1 < ../Mailbox.py.patch"
> >
> > 4. The following message is presented:
> >
> > (Stripping trailing CRs from patch.)
> > can't find file to patch at input line 3
> > Perhaps you used the wrong -p or --strip option?
>
>
> It's partly my fault as I didn't have the same paths as the other
> patches, but at steps 2 and 3 you need
>
> cd /usr/src/mailman-2.1.18-1/Mailman
> patch -p0 < ../../Mailbox.py.patch
>
> Or you could just do
>
> patch Mailman/Mailbox.py < ../Mailbox.py.patch
> in the /usr/src/mailman-2.1.18-1 directory.
>
> See 'man patch'
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 18 21:36:54 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 12:36:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mhonarc patch
In-Reply-To: <CAD=__t9z4t1Pp_r6Haju6qpz8v28O3nv+++VBg0UA_GwvtDy_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD=__t_R5TmsbxUmKXfL4Y-YGCFONpgzE-QhLhDBqWN8E8u=CA@mail.gmail.com>	<53C88C0E.5090808@msapiro.net>	<CAD=__t-Jv+A3HkRiPAzG25xnM0Z2jHFuON5Eg2iRCtJ_jZQvUQ@mail.gmail.com>	<53C958D6.7030200@msapiro.net>	<CAD=__t9BtE-YUVQ3U0Jo35o801suW+hZn4o0SM7QuQk-1Szx6Q@mail.gmail.com>	<53C95E67.6040106@msapiro.net>	<CAD=__t8knJHMB6MvkK8jjV0RwEjtWP5UbNu-+uHs5i6b4e9p=A@mail.gmail.com>	<53C96391.9060601@msapiro.net>
 <CAD=__t9z4t1Pp_r6Haju6qpz8v28O3nv+++VBg0UA_GwvtDy_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53C97756.3080005@msapiro.net>

On 07/18/2014 11:20 AM, Peter Knowles wrote:
> 
> When I run the other patches, it'd report something like "Hunk #1
> succeed at 12 (offset -1 lines).", compared to when I ran your patch (as
> directed above) it only spits out "patching file Mailman/Mailbox.py"
> with no indication whether it was successful or not.
> 
> My question regarding this is, is this simply due to the way your patch
> was written, or does the "Hunk #X succeeded" message get generated by
> the "patch" program?


patch issues messages such as the one you quote when there is some
discrepancy between the file being patched and the patch itself, but the
discrepancy (in the above case a shift of 1 line) is minor enough that
patch can figure out what do do. Also, in those cases, patch will create
an xxx.orig file with the original, unpatched content so you can examine
the diff between the original and the patched file if you wish to see
that patch really did what you wanted.

If there is no discrepancy, patch just applies the patch and doesn't
issue any further messages.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From runner at winning.com  Fri Jul 18 22:27:53 2014
From: runner at winning.com (Alfred Pope)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 22:27:53 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving lists to new server - question on specific
	files
Message-ID: <trinity-e084f97a-a191-465b-8565-95311d362c7f-1405715273013@3capp-mailcom-lxa01>

I've read dozens of posts concerning how to move mailman lists to a new mailman server and I have a pretty good idea what needs to be done.  I would like to get clarification on several details though.
 
1) I'm moving the lists from version 2.1.9 on Solaris 10 to version 2.1.18-1 on Ubuntu.  In an older post from Barry (which I cannot find now) he seems to indicate the list configuration files under mailman/lists/<listname>/ have not changed in these minor releases.  He didn't come right out and say it directly but that's what I got from the post.  I just wanted to clarify this.  Does the format or contents of the list config files change among these minor releases?
 
2) Also concerning the files under mailman/lists/<listname>/:  several different posters say to copy over the entire contents of mailman/lists/<listname>/ but other posters say the only "necessary" files to copy are the list config.pck files.   It makes sense that if you only copy over these minimal config files, you will loose the pending requests and subscription requests for each list.  Loosing the data in pending.pck and request.pck is OK with me as long as it doesn't break the list.  The list managers will be alerted in advance to clean up their lists.  Also, the current (old) list server contains config.db files for each list in addition to the config.pck files.  This is probably due to a previous migration in 2007.  I would rather not copy everything under these list directories.  I just need the list configuration and membership data.  Is copying the minimal config files a safe plan?
 
3) I don't plan on copying over the heldmsg and bounce files under mailman/data/  If the list managers don't clean up their lists before the move they will loose this data.  That's OK.  I just want to make sure not including those files won't break something down the road.  
 
Thank you for your time.
 
Rick

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jul 19 19:12:50 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2014 10:12:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving lists to new server - question on
 specific files
In-Reply-To: <trinity-e084f97a-a191-465b-8565-95311d362c7f-1405715273013@3capp-mailcom-lxa01>
References: <trinity-e084f97a-a191-465b-8565-95311d362c7f-1405715273013@3capp-mailcom-lxa01>
Message-ID: <53CAA712.4010302@msapiro.net>

On 07/18/2014 01:27 PM, Alfred Pope wrote:
>  
> 1) I'm moving the lists from version 2.1.9 on Solaris 10 to version 2.1.18-1 on Ubuntu.  In an older post from Barry (which I cannot find now) he seems to indicate the list configuration files under mailman/lists/<listname>/ have not changed in these minor releases.  He didn't come right out and say it directly but that's what I got from the post.  I just wanted to clarify this.  Does the format or contents of the list config files change among these minor releases?


Yes, there are changes in the list config.pck files, mostly the addition
of new attributes, but this is not something you need to worry about
when moving a config.pck from an older to a newer MM.

Each Mailman installation has an attribute
Mailman.Version.DATA_FILE_VERSION and each list has an attribute
data_version. Every time a list is instantiated, the list's data_version
is compared to the installation's DATA_FILE_VERSION and if it is less, a
process is run which knows how to update the list to match the
installation, and the list is updated.

Thus you don't have to worry when dropping a 2.1.9 config.pck into a
2.1.18-1 installation. The config.pck will be updated as needed
automatically.

There are possible issues with dropping a newer config.pck into an older
installation. In most cases this will result in 'unused' list attributes
which does no harm, but if an attribute has been renamed between the
older and newer releases, the old name will be missing in this case.
This is rare. The only recent case is from_is_list which was called
author_is_list only in 2.1.16rc2, so dropping a newer config.pck into a
2.1.16rc2 installation would be a problem.


> 2) Also concerning the files under mailman/lists/<listname>/:  several different posters say to copy over the entire contents of mailman/lists/<listname>/ but other posters say the only "necessary" files to copy are the list config.pck files.   It makes sense that if you only copy over these minimal config files, you will loose the pending requests and subscription requests for each list.  Loosing the data in pending.pck and request.pck is OK with me as long as it doesn't break the list.  The list managers will be alerted in advance to clean up their lists.  Also, the current (old) list server contains config.db files for each list in addition to the config.pck files.  This is probably due to a previous migration in 2007.  I would rather not copy everything under these list directories.  I just need the list configuration and membership data.  Is copying the minimal config files a safe plan?


Copying only the config.pck is a safe plan. The config.db files are left
over from Mailman 2.0.x and should not be copied in any case. In fact,
they should be removed from the 2.1.9 installation.

The reason for this is the data therein is very old, and it is possible
that the config.pck files could become corrupted in some way and Mailman
would fall back to the extremely outdated config.db. It's better if the
config.pck corruption is discovered soon after it occurs.


> 3) I don't plan on copying over the heldmsg and bounce files under mailman/data/  If the list managers don't clean up their lists before the move they will loose this data.  That's OK.  I just want to make sure not including those files won't break something down the road.  


That too is fine. WRT the bounce-events-ppppp.pck files, there normally
should be at most one of these (or a few if BounceRunner is sliced) with
ppppp equal to the PID of BounceRunner. If there are any with PIDs of
non-existent process, they are left behind from some anomalous event,
possibly <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1161610>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jul 19 20:57:49 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2014 11:57:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] postfix errors
In-Reply-To: <CAG8E47R9N6c-XJFuDZVnQSwg5F5u2HvCae4KOWQGnSSbaBpDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG8E47R9N6c-XJFuDZVnQSwg5F5u2HvCae4KOWQGnSSbaBpDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53CABFAD.80507@msapiro.net>

On 07/17/2014 08:43 AM, Jimmy wrote:
> I am still working on this new mailman system and seeing these errors when
> an email is sent to the system. I've googled the errors and haven't yet
> found anything that helps. Any ideas? Thanks
> 
...
> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.635273-04:00 listservhostname postfix/pipe[13803]:
> fatal: get_service_attr: unknown username: list
> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.666526-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
> disconnect from unknown[10.0.0.1]
> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.637115-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
> warning: private/mailman socket: malformed response
> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.637153-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
> warning: transport mailman failure -- see a previous warning/fatal/panic
> logfile record for the problem description


I'm really guessing here, but it looks like postfix is attempting to
deliver this message via a 'mailman' transport and is piping the message
to the transport (postfix_to_mailman.py ?) and there is some issue
because there is no user 'list' in the system.

If this doesn't help, please provide more detail as to your postfix
configuration. E.g. things like the output from 'postconf -n' the
non-comment contents of /etc/postfix/transport and the definition of the
'mailman' transport from /etc/postfix/master.cf.

Also, see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/EYDt>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From rdwoodford at gmail.com  Sun Jul 20 13:38:24 2014
From: rdwoodford at gmail.com (Russell Woodford)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2014 21:38:24 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net>
 <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Peter, Mark and all

I think I may have the solution now (Peter is one of our list moderators).
My web host is now telling me that there is a 200 emails per hour limit for
my hosting plan. We have 1140 subscribers. That means we blow the limit out
of the water EVERY time someone posts!

I'm not sure why they have taken so long to tell me this, as we've been
running on this host for over 7 months, but it seems they throttle the
outgoing mail volume, so it can take a while for all those recipients to
get each message. I suppose it depends on overall server activity - if
nothing else is happening, then maybe a new message does get straight to
1140 recipients.

Looks like we will need to shift to a new listserver and maybe even a new
webhost - and maybe even a new domain registrar (I've had all my eggs in
the Namecheap basket for some years now).  Somehow I don't think I am going
to get away with this volume of mail for the $50 a year I'm currently
paying :-(

Russell Woodford
Geelong, Australia
birding-aus.org


On 18 July 2014 11:20, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 07/17/2014 05:01 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
> >
> > I've now enabled protocol logging on our Exchange server, a new world
> for me. I can see several possibly relevant events in yesterday's logs that
> look like this:
> > 2014-07-17T07:02:03.914Z,NUWVICMS2\Default NUWVICMS2,08D145520008BC68,24,
> 192.168.0.36:25,192.64.112.70:38732,>,550 5.7.1 Requested action not
> taken: message refused,
>
>
> This is a 550 (extended 5.7.,1) status which is a permanent failure.
> This is a bounce and will (should) not be retried by the sending server.
>
> I doubt that this specific log message has anything to do with your
> delayed messages.
>
>
> > But if the antispam software is refusing the messages, how do they
> eventually get through?
>
>
> Exactly.
>
> You could look at the logs on the 192.64.112.70 sending server to see
> what that server did with this message after it was bounced by the
> exchange server.
>
> If the Mailman server is sending directly to the exchange server and
> that is where the delays are occurring, you need to look at the MTA logs
> of the Mailman server and see what's there relevant to sending failures
> and resends.
>
> But, this thread no longer has anything to do with Mailman. Perhaps you
> could find another list/forum to discuss this that might be able to
> provide more expertise in this area.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/rdwoodford%40gmail.com
>

From dave.lists at nathanson.org  Sun Jul 20 17:25:52 2014
From: dave.lists at nathanson.org (Dave Nathanson)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2014 08:25:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net> <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>

I'm surprised that any web/email host would apply a rule intended for a personal email account to a listserve. I'm guessing that you are running MailMan on your own computer, then using mail server provided by your email hosting company to send the messages. So to the email host, you do look like a very busy personal account. 

As I see it, your options include:

* Discuss this limitation with your email host & see if they will waive the message sending cap for your listserv.
* Use a mailman installation hosted by your email hosting company, which is not subject to a message sending cap. 
* Changing email hosts & using a mailman installation hosted by your email hosting company, which is not subject to a message sending cap. 

No need to change registrars. NameCheap is a good registrar, better than many. I haven't used their web/email hosting. 

My email lists are all running on Mailman provided by my email host. You don't even need to install it, just choose a dedicated subdomain for it to run on. They do NOT limit message flow from Mailman, although they do limit the number of messages per hour sent from a personal mail account. No web/email host is perfect, but I'm pretty happy with DreamHost. Especially for about $100 a year for more services than I can possibly use. (And I'm giving it a good go!). 

Here is a Dreamhost Coupon code & link that will give you $10 off now, plus 1 free LIFETIME domain registration. So that's a savings of about $11 a year for life. MACMEDIXFREEDOM  What else is included? Tons! Check it out.
http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?250640/hosting.html

Best, 
 Dave Nathanson
 Mac Medix

On Jul 20, 2014, at 4:38 AM, Russell Woodford <rdwoodford at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Peter, Mark and all
> 
> I think I may have the solution now (Peter is one of our list moderators).
> My web host is now telling me that there is a 200 emails per hour limit for
> my hosting plan. We have 1140 subscribers. That means we blow the limit out
> of the water EVERY time someone posts!
> 
> I'm not sure why they have taken so long to tell me this, as we've been
> running on this host for over 7 months, but it seems they throttle the
> outgoing mail volume, so it can take a while for all those recipients to
> get each message. I suppose it depends on overall server activity - if
> nothing else is happening, then maybe a new message does get straight to
> 1140 recipients.
> 
> Looks like we will need to shift to a new listserver and maybe even a new
> webhost - and maybe even a new domain registrar (I've had all my eggs in
> the Namecheap basket for some years now).  Somehow I don't think I am going
> to get away with this volume of mail for the $50 a year I'm currently
> paying :-(
> 
> Russell Woodford
> Geelong, Australia
> birding-aus.org
> 
> 
> On 18 July 2014 11:20, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 07/17/2014 05:01 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
>>> 
>>> I've now enabled protocol logging on our Exchange server, a new world
>> for me. I can see several possibly relevant events in yesterday's logs that
>> look like this:
>>> 2014-07-17T07:02:03.914Z,NUWVICMS2\Default NUWVICMS2,08D145520008BC68,24,
>> 192.168.0.36:25,192.64.112.70:38732,>,550 5.7.1 Requested action not
>> taken: message refused,
>> 
>> 
>> This is a 550 (extended 5.7.,1) status which is a permanent failure.
>> This is a bounce and will (should) not be retried by the sending server.
>> 
>> I doubt that this specific log message has anything to do with your
>> delayed messages.
>> 
>> 
>>> But if the antispam software is refusing the messages, how do they
>> eventually get through?
>> 
>> 
>> Exactly.
>> 
>> You could look at the logs on the 192.64.112.70 sending server to see
>> what that server did with this message after it was bounced by the
>> exchange server.
>> 
>> If the Mailman server is sending directly to the exchange server and
>> that is where the delays are occurring, you need to look at the MTA logs
>> of the Mailman server and see what's there relevant to sending failures
>> and resends.
>> 
>> But, this thread no longer has anything to do with Mailman. Perhaps you
>> could find another list/forum to discuss this that might be able to
>> provide more expertise in this area.
>> 
>> --
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/dave.lists%40nathanson.org


From pshute at nuw.org.au  Sun Jul 20 22:35:17 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 06:35:17 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net> <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
Message-ID: <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>

No, it's all hosted via cpanel. Does this mail per hour limit seem odd with that sort of setup?

Does dreamhost keep their mailman up to date? We're still on 2.1.15, and when I asked about upgrading, they wouldn't commit to any date, only that it would be more likely to be months than a month.

Peter Shute

Sent from my iPad

> On 21 Jul 2014, at 1:35 am, "Dave Nathanson" <dave.lists at nathanson.org> wrote:
> 
> I'm surprised that any web/email host would apply a rule intended for a personal email account to a listserve. I'm guessing that you are running MailMan on your own computer, then using mail server provided by your email hosting company to send the messages. So to the email host, you do look like a very busy personal account. 
> 
> As I see it, your options include:
> 
> * Discuss this limitation with your email host & see if they will waive the message sending cap for your listserv.
> * Use a mailman installation hosted by your email hosting company, which is not subject to a message sending cap. 
> * Changing email hosts & using a mailman installation hosted by your email hosting company, which is not subject to a message sending cap. 
> 
> No need to change registrars. NameCheap is a good registrar, better than many. I haven't used their web/email hosting. 
> 
> My email lists are all running on Mailman provided by my email host. You don't even need to install it, just choose a dedicated subdomain for it to run on. They do NOT limit message flow from Mailman, although they do limit the number of messages per hour sent from a personal mail account. No web/email host is perfect, but I'm pretty happy with DreamHost. Especially for about $100 a year for more services than I can possibly use. (And I'm giving it a good go!). 
> 
> Here is a Dreamhost Coupon code & link that will give you $10 off now, plus 1 free LIFETIME domain registration. So that's a savings of about $11 a year for life. MACMEDIXFREEDOM  What else is included? Tons! Check it out.
> http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?250640/hosting.html
> 
> Best, 
> Dave Nathanson
> Mac Medix
> 
>> On Jul 20, 2014, at 4:38 AM, Russell Woodford <rdwoodford at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Peter, Mark and all
>> 
>> I think I may have the solution now (Peter is one of our list moderators).
>> My web host is now telling me that there is a 200 emails per hour limit for
>> my hosting plan. We have 1140 subscribers. That means we blow the limit out
>> of the water EVERY time someone posts!
>> 
>> I'm not sure why they have taken so long to tell me this, as we've been
>> running on this host for over 7 months, but it seems they throttle the
>> outgoing mail volume, so it can take a while for all those recipients to
>> get each message. I suppose it depends on overall server activity - if
>> nothing else is happening, then maybe a new message does get straight to
>> 1140 recipients.
>> 
>> Looks like we will need to shift to a new listserver and maybe even a new
>> webhost - and maybe even a new domain registrar (I've had all my eggs in
>> the Namecheap basket for some years now).  Somehow I don't think I am going
>> to get away with this volume of mail for the $50 a year I'm currently
>> paying :-(
>> 
>> Russell Woodford
>> Geelong, Australia
>> birding-aus.org
>> 
>> 
>>> On 18 July 2014 11:20, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 07/17/2014 05:01 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I've now enabled protocol logging on our Exchange server, a new world
>>> for me. I can see several possibly relevant events in yesterday's logs that
>>> look like this:
>>>> 2014-07-17T07:02:03.914Z,NUWVICMS2\Default NUWVICMS2,08D145520008BC68,24,
>>> 192.168.0.36:25,192.64.112.70:38732,>,550 5.7.1 Requested action not
>>> taken: message refused,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> This is a 550 (extended 5.7.,1) status which is a permanent failure.
>>> This is a bounce and will (should) not be retried by the sending server.
>>> 
>>> I doubt that this specific log message has anything to do with your
>>> delayed messages.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> But if the antispam software is refusing the messages, how do they
>>> eventually get through?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Exactly.
>>> 
>>> You could look at the logs on the 192.64.112.70 sending server to see
>>> what that server did with this message after it was bounced by the
>>> exchange server.
>>> 
>>> If the Mailman server is sending directly to the exchange server and
>>> that is where the delays are occurring, you need to look at the MTA logs
>>> of the Mailman server and see what's there relevant to sending failures
>>> and resends.
>>> 
>>> But, this thread no longer has anything to do with Mailman. Perhaps you
>>> could find another list/forum to discuss this that might be able to
>>> provide more expertise in this area.
>>> 
>>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/dave.lists%40nathanson.org
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pshute%40nuw.org.au

From brian at emwd.com  Sun Jul 20 23:49:33 2014
From: brian at emwd.com (Brian Carpenter)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2014 17:49:33 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net> <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
 <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>
Message-ID: <2db501cfa464$7e394100$7aabc300$@emwd.com>

Dreamhost also throttles their SMTP servers:

http://wiki.dreamhost.com/SMTP_quota

By not keeping their Mailman installation up to date is also VERY
problematic since certain ISPs' DMARC policies impacts mailing lists
everywhere. If you were serious about your mailing list(s), I would not use
them. Using us on the other hand makes a lot of sense. :^)

http://www.mailmanhost.com

Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: brian at emwd.com
www.emwd.com

> No, it's all hosted via cpanel. Does this mail per hour limit seem odd
with that
> sort of setup?
> 
> Does dreamhost keep their mailman up to date? We're still on 2.1.15, and
> when I asked about upgrading, they wouldn't commit to any date, only that
it
> would be more likely to be months than a month.
> 
> Peter Shute
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> > On 21 Jul 2014, at 1:35 am, "Dave Nathanson" <dave.lists at nathanson.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > I'm surprised that any web/email host would apply a rule intended for a
> personal email account to a listserve. I'm guessing that you are running
> MailMan on your own computer, then using mail server provided by your
> email hosting company to send the messages. So to the email host, you do
> look like a very busy personal account.
> >
> > As I see it, your options include:
> >
> > * Discuss this limitation with your email host & see if they will waive
the
> message sending cap for your listserv.
> > * Use a mailman installation hosted by your email hosting company, which
> is not subject to a message sending cap.
> > * Changing email hosts & using a mailman installation hosted by your
email
> hosting company, which is not subject to a message sending cap.
> >
> > No need to change registrars. NameCheap is a good registrar, better than
> many. I haven't used their web/email hosting.
> >
> > My email lists are all running on Mailman provided by my email host. You
> don't even need to install it, just choose a dedicated subdomain for it to
run
> on. They do NOT limit message flow from Mailman, although they do limit
> the number of messages per hour sent from a personal mail account. No
> web/email host is perfect, but I'm pretty happy with DreamHost. Especially
> for about $100 a year for more services than I can possibly use. (And I'm
> giving it a good go!).
> >
> > Here is a Dreamhost Coupon code & link that will give you $10 off now,
plus
> 1 free LIFETIME domain registration. So that's a savings of about $11 a
year
> for life. MACMEDIXFREEDOM  What else is included? Tons! Check it out.
> > http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?250640/hosting.html
> >
> > Best,
> > Dave Nathanson
> > Mac Medix
> >
> >> On Jul 20, 2014, at 4:38 AM, Russell Woodford <rdwoodford at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Peter, Mark and all
> >>
> >> I think I may have the solution now (Peter is one of our list
moderators).
> >> My web host is now telling me that there is a 200 emails per hour limit
for
> >> my hosting plan. We have 1140 subscribers. That means we blow the limit
> out
> >> of the water EVERY time someone posts!
> >>
> >> I'm not sure why they have taken so long to tell me this, as we've been
> >> running on this host for over 7 months, but it seems they throttle the
> >> outgoing mail volume, so it can take a while for all those recipients
to
> >> get each message. I suppose it depends on overall server activity - if
> >> nothing else is happening, then maybe a new message does get straight
> to
> >> 1140 recipients.
> >>
> >> Looks like we will need to shift to a new listserver and maybe even a
new
> >> webhost - and maybe even a new domain registrar (I've had all my eggs
in
> >> the Namecheap basket for some years now).  Somehow I don't think I am
> going
> >> to get away with this volume of mail for the $50 a year I'm currently
> >> paying :-(
> >>
> >> Russell Woodford
> >> Geelong, Australia
> >> birding-aus.org
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 18 July 2014 11:20, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 07/17/2014 05:01 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I've now enabled protocol logging on our Exchange server, a new world
> >>> for me. I can see several possibly relevant events in yesterday's logs
that
> >>> look like this:
> >>>> 2014-07-17T07:02:03.914Z,NUWVICMS2\Default
> NUWVICMS2,08D145520008BC68,24,
> >>> 192.168.0.36:25,192.64.112.70:38732,>,550 5.7.1 Requested action not
> >>> taken: message refused,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> This is a 550 (extended 5.7.,1) status which is a permanent failure.
> >>> This is a bounce and will (should) not be retried by the sending
server.
> >>>
> >>> I doubt that this specific log message has anything to do with your
> >>> delayed messages.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> But if the antispam software is refusing the messages, how do they
> >>> eventually get through?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Exactly.
> >>>
> >>> You could look at the logs on the 192.64.112.70 sending server to see
> >>> what that server did with this message after it was bounced by the
> >>> exchange server.
> >>>
> >>> If the Mailman server is sending directly to the exchange server and
> >>> that is where the delays are occurring, you need to look at the MTA
logs
> >>> of the Mailman server and see what's there relevant to sending
failures
> >>> and resends.
> >>>
> >>> But, this thread no longer has anything to do with Mailman. Perhaps
you
> >>> could find another list/forum to discuss this that might be able to
> >>> provide more expertise in this area.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >> ------------------------------------------------------
> >> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> >> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> >> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> >> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
> users%40python.org/
> >> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
> users/dave.lists%40nathanson.org
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
> users%40python.org/
> > Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
> users/pshute%40nuw.org.au
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
> users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
> users/brian%40emwd.com


From pshute at nuw.org.au  Mon Jul 21 00:49:22 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:49:22 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <2db501cfa464$7e394100$7aabc300$@emwd.com>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net> <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
 <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>
 <2db501cfa464$7e394100$7aabc300$@emwd.com>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39FF@nuwvicms2>

That dreamhost page says there's an smtp limit of 100 recipients an hour, which would be unworkable for 1000 plus members, but also mentions "announce lists", which don't have limits. The announce lists page says these are different from "discussion lists", but the discussion lists page doesn't mention limits.

I assume when you mention not keeping mailman up to date, you're referring to our current provider, not dreamhost?

Peter Shute

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Carpenter [mailto:brian at emwd.com] 
> Sent: Monday, 21 July 2014 7:50 AM
> To: Peter Shute; 'Dave Nathanson'
> Cc: mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: RE: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
> 
> Dreamhost also throttles their SMTP servers:
> 
> http://wiki.dreamhost.com/SMTP_quota
> 
> By not keeping their Mailman installation up to date is also 
> VERY problematic since certain ISPs' DMARC policies impacts 
> mailing lists everywhere. If you were serious about your 
> mailing list(s), I would not use them. Using us on the other 
> hand makes a lot of sense. :^)
> 
> http://www.mailmanhost.com
> 
> Brian Carpenter
> EMWD.com
> 
> Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.
> 
> T: 336.755.0685
> E: brian at emwd.com
> www.emwd.com
> 
> > No, it's all hosted via cpanel. Does this mail per hour 
> limit seem odd
> with that
> > sort of setup?
> > 
> > Does dreamhost keep their mailman up to date? We're still 
> on 2.1.15, 
> > and when I asked about upgrading, they wouldn't commit to any date, 
> > only that
> it
> > would be more likely to be months than a month.
> > 
> > Peter Shute
> > 
> > Sent from my iPad
> > 
> > > On 21 Jul 2014, at 1:35 am, "Dave Nathanson" 
> > > <dave.lists at nathanson.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm surprised that any web/email host would apply a rule intended 
> > > for a
> > personal email account to a listserve. I'm guessing that you are 
> > running MailMan on your own computer, then using mail 
> server provided 
> > by your email hosting company to send the messages. So to the email 
> > host, you do look like a very busy personal account.
> > >
> > > As I see it, your options include:
> > >
> > > * Discuss this limitation with your email host & see if they will 
> > > waive
> the
> > message sending cap for your listserv.
> > > * Use a mailman installation hosted by your email hosting 
> company, 
> > > which
> > is not subject to a message sending cap.
> > > * Changing email hosts & using a mailman installation 
> hosted by your
> email
> > hosting company, which is not subject to a message sending cap.
> > >
> > > No need to change registrars. NameCheap is a good 
> registrar, better 
> > > than
> > many. I haven't used their web/email hosting.
> > >
> > > My email lists are all running on Mailman provided by my 
> email host. 
> > > You
> > don't even need to install it, just choose a dedicated 
> subdomain for 
> > it to
> run
> > on. They do NOT limit message flow from Mailman, although they do 
> > limit the number of messages per hour sent from a personal mail 
> > account. No web/email host is perfect, but I'm pretty happy with 
> > DreamHost. Especially for about $100 a year for more 
> services than I 
> > can possibly use. (And I'm giving it a good go!).
> > >
> > > Here is a Dreamhost Coupon code & link that will give you $10 off 
> > > now,
> plus
> > 1 free LIFETIME domain registration. So that's a savings of 
> about $11 
> > a
> year
> > for life. MACMEDIXFREEDOM  What else is included? Tons! 
> Check it out.
> > > http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?250640/hosting.html
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Dave Nathanson
> > > Mac Medix
> > >
> > >> On Jul 20, 2014, at 4:38 AM, Russell Woodford 
> > >> <rdwoodford at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hi Peter, Mark and all
> > >>
> > >> I think I may have the solution now (Peter is one of our list
> moderators).
> > >> My web host is now telling me that there is a 200 emails 
> per hour 
> > >> limit
> for
> > >> my hosting plan. We have 1140 subscribers. That means we 
> blow the 
> > >> limit
> > out
> > >> of the water EVERY time someone posts!
> > >>
> > >> I'm not sure why they have taken so long to tell me 
> this, as we've 
> > >> been running on this host for over 7 months, but it seems they 
> > >> throttle the outgoing mail volume, so it can take a 
> while for all 
> > >> those recipients
> to
> > >> get each message. I suppose it depends on overall server 
> activity - 
> > >> if nothing else is happening, then maybe a new message does get 
> > >> straight
> > to
> > >> 1140 recipients.
> > >>
> > >> Looks like we will need to shift to a new listserver and 
> maybe even 
> > >> a
> new
> > >> webhost - and maybe even a new domain registrar (I've had all my 
> > >> eggs
> in
> > >> the Namecheap basket for some years now).  Somehow I 
> don't think I 
> > >> am
> > going
> > >> to get away with this volume of mail for the $50 a year I'm 
> > >> currently paying :-(
> > >>
> > >> Russell Woodford
> > >> Geelong, Australia
> > >> birding-aus.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> On 18 July 2014 11:20, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 07/17/2014 05:01 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I've now enabled protocol logging on our Exchange 
> server, a new 
> > >>>> world
> > >>> for me. I can see several possibly relevant events in 
> yesterday's 
> > >>> logs
> that
> > >>> look like this:
> > >>>> 2014-07-17T07:02:03.914Z,NUWVICMS2\Default
> > NUWVICMS2,08D145520008BC68,24,
> > >>> 192.168.0.36:25,192.64.112.70:38732,>,550 5.7.1 
> Requested action 
> > >>> not
> > >>> taken: message refused,
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> This is a 550 (extended 5.7.,1) status which is a 
> permanent failure.
> > >>> This is a bounce and will (should) not be retried by the sending
> server.
> > >>>
> > >>> I doubt that this specific log message has anything to do with 
> > >>> your delayed messages.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> But if the antispam software is refusing the messages, how do 
> > >>>> they
> > >>> eventually get through?
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Exactly.
> > >>>
> > >>> You could look at the logs on the 192.64.112.70 sending 
> server to 
> > >>> see what that server did with this message after it was 
> bounced by 
> > >>> the exchange server.
> > >>>
> > >>> If the Mailman server is sending directly to the 
> exchange server 
> > >>> and that is where the delays are occurring, you need to look at 
> > >>> the MTA
> logs
> > >>> of the Mailman server and see what's there relevant to sending
> failures
> > >>> and resends.
> > >>>
> > >>> But, this thread no longer has anything to do with Mailman. 
> > >>> Perhaps
> you
> > >>> could find another list/forum to discuss this that 
> might be able 
> > >>> to provide more expertise in this area.
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >> ------------------------------------------------------
> > >> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org 
> > >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> > >> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: 
> > >> http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: 
> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
> > users%40python.org/
> > >> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
> > users/dave.lists%40nathanson.org
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------
> > > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org 
> > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> > > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: 
> > > http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: 
> > > http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
> > users%40python.org/
> > > Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
> > users/pshute%40nuw.org.au
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org 
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: 
> > http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: 
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
> > users%40python.org/
> > Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
> > users/brian%40emwd.com
> 
> 

From cgtyoder at alum.mit.edu  Mon Jul 21 01:11:29 2014
From: cgtyoder at alum.mit.edu (Conrad G T Yoder)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2014 19:11:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <2db501cfa464$7e394100$7aabc300$@emwd.com>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net> <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
 <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>
 <2db501cfa464$7e394100$7aabc300$@emwd.com>
Message-ID: <1F1B943F-8417-48D8-95B3-43FB169A83F3@alum.mit.edu>

Always beware when businesses attempt to describe their competitor?s products.

That?s pretty disingenuous of you, Brian.  On that page you mention, it plainly says:

> Discussion Lists (created via our control panel): unlimited recipients per hour
> 
> ? Max recipients per message: unlimited
> ? Max message size: 40MB (encoded); individual list may set a lower limit

I myself admin several mailing lists with them, one with 7800+ members, with roughly 14 messages/day.  That?s on the order of
100K emails/day.  I have never had any issues with DH throttling the outgoing messages from my lists.  (I do have problems with the likes of Roadrunner/Time Warner having irresponsible reception policies so that their email users are constantly getting subscriptions disabled, but that?s another story).

Dreamhost is definitely not perfect, but this is not one of the problem areas.

(They are now running MM 2.1.17, as of a couple months ago.)

-Conrad



On Jul 20, 2014, at 5:49 PM, Brian Carpenter <brian at emwd.com> wrote:

> Dreamhost also throttles their SMTP servers:
> 
> http://wiki.dreamhost.com/SMTP_quota
> 
> By not keeping their Mailman installation up to date is also VERY
> problematic since certain ISPs' DMARC policies impacts mailing lists
> everywhere. If you were serious about your mailing list(s), I would not use
> them. Using us on the other hand makes a lot of sense. :^)
> 
> http://www.mailmanhost.com
> 
> Brian Carpenter
> EMWD.com
> 
> Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.
> 
> T: 336.755.0685
> E: brian at emwd.com
> www.emwd.com
> 
>> No, it's all hosted via cpanel. Does this mail per hour limit seem odd with that
>> sort of setup?
>> 
>> Does dreamhost keep their mailman up to date? We're still on 2.1.15, and
>> when I asked about upgrading, they wouldn't commit to any date, only that it
>> would be more likely to be months than a month.
>> 
>> Peter Shute
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On 21 Jul 2014, at 1:35 am, "Dave Nathanson" <dave.lists at nathanson.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm surprised that any web/email host would apply a rule intended for a
>> personal email account to a listserve. I'm guessing that you are running
>> MailMan on your own computer, then using mail server provided by your
>> email hosting company to send the messages. So to the email host, you do
>> look like a very busy personal account.
>>> 
>>> As I see it, your options include:
>>> 
>>> * Discuss this limitation with your email host & see if they will waive the
>> message sending cap for your listserv.
>>> * Use a mailman installation hosted by your email hosting company, which
>> is not subject to a message sending cap.
>>> * Changing email hosts & using a mailman installation hosted by your email
>> hosting company, which is not subject to a message sending cap.
>>> 
>>> No need to change registrars. NameCheap is a good registrar, better than
>> many. I haven't used their web/email hosting.
>>> 
>>> My email lists are all running on Mailman provided by my email host. You
>> don't even need to install it, just choose a dedicated subdomain for it to run
>> on. They do NOT limit message flow from Mailman, although they do limit
>> the number of messages per hour sent from a personal mail account. No
>> web/email host is perfect, but I'm pretty happy with DreamHost. Especially
>> for about $100 a year for more services than I can possibly use. (And I'm
>> giving it a good go!).
>>> 
>>> Here is a Dreamhost Coupon code & link that will give you $10 off now, plus
>> 1 free LIFETIME domain registration. So that's a savings of about $11 a year
>> for life. MACMEDIXFREEDOM  What else is included? Tons! Check it out.
>>> http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?250640/hosting.html
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Dave Nathanson
>>> Mac Medix
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 20, 2014, at 4:38 AM, Russell Woodford <rdwoodford at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Peter, Mark and all
>>>> 
>>>> I think I may have the solution now (Peter is one of our list moderators).
>>>> My web host is now telling me that there is a 200 emails per hour limit for
>>>> my hosting plan. We have 1140 subscribers. That means we blow the limit out
>>>> of the water EVERY time someone posts!
>>>> 
>>>> I'm not sure why they have taken so long to tell me this, as we've been
>>>> running on this host for over 7 months, but it seems they throttle the
>>>> outgoing mail volume, so it can take a while for all those recipients to
>>>> get each message. I suppose it depends on overall server activity - if
>>>> nothing else is happening, then maybe a new message does get straight to
>>>> 1140 recipients.
>>>> 
>>>> Looks like we will need to shift to a new listserver and maybe even a new
>>>> webhost - and maybe even a new domain registrar (I've had all my eggs in
>>>> the Namecheap basket for some years now).  Somehow I don't think I am going
>>>> to get away with this volume of mail for the $50 a year I'm currently
>>>> paying :-(
>>>> 
>>>> Russell Woodford
>>>> Geelong, Australia
>>>> birding-aus.org
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 18 July 2014 11:20, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 07/17/2014 05:01 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I've now enabled protocol logging on our Exchange server, a new world
>>>>> for me. I can see several possibly relevant events in yesterday's logs that
>>>>> look like this:
>>>>>> 2014-07-17T07:02:03.914Z,NUWVICMS2\Default NUWVICMS2,08D145520008BC68,24,
>>>>> 192.168.0.36:25,192.64.112.70:38732,>,550 5.7.1 Requested action not
>>>>> taken: message refused,
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> This is a 550 (extended 5.7.,1) status which is a permanent failure.
>>>>> This is a bounce and will (should) not be retried by the sending server.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I doubt that this specific log message has anything to do with your
>>>>> delayed messages.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> But if the antispam software is refusing the messages, how do they
>>>>> eventually get through?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Exactly.
>>>>> 
>>>>> You could look at the logs on the 192.64.112.70 sending server to see
>>>>> what that server did with this message after it was bounced by the
>>>>> exchange server.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If the Mailman server is sending directly to the exchange server and
>>>>> that is where the delays are occurring, you need to look at the MTA logs
>>>>> of the Mailman server and see what's there relevant to sending failures
>>>>> and resends.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But, this thread no longer has anything to do with Mailman. Perhaps you
>>>>> could find another list/forum to discuss this that might be able to
>>>>> provide more expertise in this area.
>>>>> 
>>>>> --

--
Eternal vigilance is the price of prosperity.


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 21 04:52:50 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2014 19:52:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net> <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
Message-ID: <53CC8082.2090706@msapiro.net>

On 07/20/2014 08:25 AM, Dave Nathanson wrote:
> I'm surprised that any web/email host would apply a rule intended for a personal email account to a listserve.


Don Quixote says see the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Mailman+is+not+Listserv>.

That said, if you search the archives of this list, you will find many
reports of hosting services that provide Mailman list "support" and
limit outgoing mail rates from those lists.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Mon Jul 21 05:06:02 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 13:06:02 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <53CC8082.2090706@msapiro.net>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net> <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
 <53CC8082.2090706@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C3A17@nuwvicms2>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

> That said, if you search the archives of this list, you will 
> find many reports of hosting services that provide Mailman 
> list "support" and limit outgoing mail rates from those lists.

Is limiting normally applied strictly per recipient? Or does it reduce the problem if lots of the members are on one domain? 50% of our members are with just 5 domains.

Peter Shute

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 21 05:19:02 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2014 20:19:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C3A17@nuwvicms2>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net> <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
 <53CC8082.2090706@msapiro.net>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C3A17@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <53CC86A6.40403@msapiro.net>

On 07/20/2014 08:06 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
> 
> Is limiting normally applied strictly per recipient? Or does it reduce the problem if lots of the members are on one domain? 50% of our members are with just 5 domains.


It depends on the specific service and their policies. They could limit
recipients or SMTP transactions. If they limit recipients, there's not
much you can do.

If the limit is on transactions, you can leave Mailman's default
settings for SMTP_MAX_RCPTS (500) VERP (No) and personalization (No) and
Mailman will group domains into a few transactions with many RCPTs and
this may help.

But the question remains. If MTA rate limiting is the answer, why did it
only start not long ago (In one post you said 11 July).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Jul 21 05:27:07 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 12:27:07 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net>
 <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
 <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>
Message-ID: <87fvhvgzn8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Peter Shute writes:

 > No, it's all hosted via cpanel. Does this mail per hour limit seem
 > odd with that sort of setup?

To me it seems like a good way to chase away customers, but IIRC over
the years many people have posted to this list about such limitations
(usually under the subject of "how do I throttle Mailman to not
overrun my host's SMTP limit?")


From shop at justbrits.com  Mon Jul 21 05:53:55 2014
From: shop at justbrits.com (Ed Kaler)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2014 22:53:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net> <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
 <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>
Message-ID: <53CC8ED3.70403@justbrits.com>

<<  On 7/20/2014 3:35 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
> Does dreamhost keep their mailman up to date?  >>

My 'understanding' is that above has a non-answer because there is
allegedly  distinct difference between an ISP offering MM 2.1.15.... and
QUIETLY offering cPanel's "version" ALSO bearing the I.D. as above.

At least my Blue Host "Tech" person related to me.

And yep, just checked one (1) of my List Mails and "source" header
info says BH using "Mailman-Version: 2.1.15".

This little "blurb" may be of interest to some of you <sigh>:
<quote>
With mailings lists larger than 100 users, it is not suggested to use 
the above mailing lists[1]. There is another free program, called 
DadaMail which is very robust, and can also throttle the email so the 
entire list is not sent at once. In the shared hosting environment, this 
is very much appreciated by the host as it lowers the server load for 
all. If you would like more information on DadaMail, please visit their 
website HERE <http://dadamailproject.com/>.
</quote>

I have "mentioned" a few facts learned here (List) whilst either doing eMail
(NON-Lists)"problems" and basically been told that "I" have zero clue(s)
about Mailing Lists and 'mails' ! ! !  Each time has left me LMAO & shaking
my head -:) -:) -:)  ! ! !

But, since I have an extremely sweet deal, I stay.

Ed
" Just Brits "

[1] above = MailMan (on "List Set-up Pages).


From pshute at nuw.org.au  Mon Jul 21 07:06:05 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 15:06:05 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <53CC86A6.40403@msapiro.net>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net> <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
 <53CC8082.2090706@msapiro.net>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C3A17@nuwvicms2>
 <53CC86A6.40403@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C3A20@nuwvicms2>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

> > Is limiting normally applied strictly per recipient? Or 
> does it reduce the problem if lots of the members are on one 
> domain? 50% of our members are with just 5 domains.
> 
> It depends on the specific service and their policies. They 
> could limit recipients or SMTP transactions. If they limit 
> recipients, there's not much you can do.

I think they said it was a recipient limit.

> If the limit is on transactions, you can leave Mailman's 
> default settings for SMTP_MAX_RCPTS (500) VERP (No) and 
> personalization (No) and Mailman will group domains into a 
> few transactions with many RCPTs and this may help.

I don't think we'd have access to those settings with cpanel anyway, would we?

> But the question remains. If MTA rate limiting is the answer, 
> why did it only start not long ago (In one post you said 11 July).

They claim we were sending spam, and they noticed a huge spike in the amount of SMTP traffic (2.5GB vs the usual 10MB or so) on the 10th. they didn't show us stats for the numbers of emails, only the size. We think someone somehow hacked our account and really was sending spam, although we've only got their word for it. If they were sending it to list members that would explain the mail rejections I was seeing in my own logs.

Anyway, it's obvious that the topic of these limits is an old one, and the only new thing here is that we somehow got lucky and they didn't apply them for a long time. I think I'd have prefered if we'd known from the start. Time to concentrate on moving to a new provider.

Peter Shute

From g17jimmy at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 17:01:32 2014
From: g17jimmy at gmail.com (Jimmy)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 11:01:32 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] postfix errors
In-Reply-To: <CAG8E47R9N6c-XJFuDZVnQSwg5F5u2HvCae4KOWQGnSSbaBpDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG8E47R9N6c-XJFuDZVnQSwg5F5u2HvCae4KOWQGnSSbaBpDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG8E47QaUdLr7RV=UGXZ5-n1CoQiQ0yQkt6_ATjoDDYp1Md_Bw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not sure why it's trying to use a username 'list', if that is the
problem. Here are the things you mentioned. Thanks.

======master.cf======
mailman   unix  -       n       n       -       -       pipe
  flags=FR user=list argv=/usr/lib/mailman/bin/postfix-to-mailman.py
  ${nexthop} ${user}

======/etc/postfix/transport======
lists.listdomain.com  mailman:

======postconf -n======
alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases
alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases
command_directory = /usr/sbin
config_directory = /etc/postfix
daemon_directory = /usr/libexec/postfix
data_directory = /var/lib/postfix
default_privs = nobody
html_directory = no
inet_interfaces = all
inet_protocols = ipv4
mail_owner = postfix
mailq_path = /usr/bin/mailq.postfix
mydestination = $myhostname localhost.$mydomain localhost
lists.listdomain.com
mydomain = lists.listdomain.com
mynetworks = 10.0.0.0/8
mynetworks_style = subnet
newaliases_path = /usr/bin/newaliases.postfix
queue_directory = /var/spool/postfix
recipient_delimiter = +
relay_domains = listdomain.com
relayhost = mailserver.prod.listdomain.com
sendmail_path = /usr/sbin/sendmail.postfix
setgid_group = postdrop
soft_bounce = no
transport_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/transport
unknown_local_recipient_reject_code = 550



On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Jimmy <g17jimmy at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am still working on this new mailman system and seeing these errors when
> an email is sent to the system. I've googled the errors and haven't yet
> found anything that helps. Any ideas? Thanks
>
> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.396296-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
> connect from unknown[10.0.0.1]
> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.497048-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
> 790A84583: client=unknown[10.0.0.1]
> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.613030-04:00 listservhostname postfix/cleanup[13802]:
> 790A84583: message-id=<
> 7e1decc87c4844c18882f3a27eefa406 at CORPEXCHMBX10.listdomain.com>
> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.625741-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
> 790A84583: from=<username at listdomain.com>, size=5925, nrcpt=1 (queue
> active)
> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.635273-04:00 listservhostname postfix/pipe[13803]:
> fatal: get_service_attr: unknown username: list
> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.666526-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
> disconnect from unknown[10.0.0.1]
> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.637115-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
> warning: private/mailman socket: malformed response
> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.637153-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
> warning: transport mailman failure -- see a previous warning/fatal/panic
> logfile record for the problem description
> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.638431-04:00 listservhostname postfix/master[13722]:
> warning: process /usr/libexec/postfix/pipe pid 13803 exit status 1
> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.638453-04:00 listservhostname postfix/master[13722]:
> warning: /usr/libexec/postfix/pipe: bad command startup -- throttling
> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.656307-04:00 listservhostname postfix/error[13805]:
> 790A84583: to=<systems-changelog at lists.listdomain.com>, relay=none,
> delay=1.2, delays=0.14/1/0/0.01, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (unknown mail
> transport error)
> 2014-07-17T10:39:42.687502-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
> 740AF107: from=<username at listdomain.com>, size=5114, nrcpt=1 (queue
> active)
> 2014-07-17T10:39:42.699454-04:00 listservhostname postfix/error[13805]:
> 740AF107: to=<systems-changelog at lists.listdomain.com>, relay=none,
> delay=539, delays=539/0.01/0/0, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (unknown mail
> transport error)
>
>

From g17jimmy at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 18:05:25 2014
From: g17jimmy at gmail.com (Jimmy)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 12:05:25 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] postfix errors
In-Reply-To: <CAG8E47QaUdLr7RV=UGXZ5-n1CoQiQ0yQkt6_ATjoDDYp1Md_Bw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG8E47R9N6c-XJFuDZVnQSwg5F5u2HvCae4KOWQGnSSbaBpDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47QaUdLr7RV=UGXZ5-n1CoQiQ0yQkt6_ATjoDDYp1Md_Bw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG8E47Q35zgHY+o7vYt35tcHnw7s=JZpk8WsqQOsgXqEGWFOTQ@mail.gmail.com>

Based on this error and the following link I think I'm missing something
from my /etc/postfix/transport.

"unknown mail transport error"
http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Mailman+-+Postfix+integration+with+Mailman+generated+transport+or+other+maps

I used the 'integrating mailman and postfix' guide but don't see what I
need to do to fix it.
Thanks


On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Jimmy <g17jimmy at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not sure why it's trying to use a username 'list', if that is the
> problem. Here are the things you mentioned. Thanks.
>
> ======master.cf======
> mailman   unix  -       n       n       -       -       pipe
>   flags=FR user=list argv=/usr/lib/mailman/bin/postfix-to-mailman.py
>   ${nexthop} ${user}
>
> ======/etc/postfix/transport======
> lists.listdomain.com  mailman:
>
> ======postconf -n======
> alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases
> alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases
> command_directory = /usr/sbin
> config_directory = /etc/postfix
> daemon_directory = /usr/libexec/postfix
> data_directory = /var/lib/postfix
> default_privs = nobody
> html_directory = no
> inet_interfaces = all
> inet_protocols = ipv4
> mail_owner = postfix
> mailq_path = /usr/bin/mailq.postfix
> mydestination = $myhostname localhost.$mydomain localhost
> lists.listdomain.com
> mydomain = lists.listdomain.com
> mynetworks = 10.0.0.0/8
> mynetworks_style = subnet
> newaliases_path = /usr/bin/newaliases.postfix
> queue_directory = /var/spool/postfix
> recipient_delimiter = +
> relay_domains = listdomain.com
> relayhost = mailserver.prod.listdomain.com
> sendmail_path = /usr/sbin/sendmail.postfix
> setgid_group = postdrop
> soft_bounce = no
> transport_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/transport
> unknown_local_recipient_reject_code = 550
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Jimmy <g17jimmy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I am still working on this new mailman system and seeing these errors
>> when an email is sent to the system. I've googled the errors and haven't
>> yet found anything that helps. Any ideas? Thanks
>>
>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.396296-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
>> connect from unknown[10.0.0.1]
>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.497048-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
>> 790A84583: client=unknown[10.0.0.1]
>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.613030-04:00 listservhostname postfix/cleanup[13802]:
>> 790A84583: message-id=<
>> 7e1decc87c4844c18882f3a27eefa406 at CORPEXCHMBX10.listdomain.com>
>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.625741-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>> 790A84583: from=<username at listdomain.com>, size=5925, nrcpt=1 (queue
>> active)
>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.635273-04:00 listservhostname postfix/pipe[13803]:
>> fatal: get_service_attr: unknown username: list
>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.666526-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
>> disconnect from unknown[10.0.0.1]
>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.637115-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>> warning: private/mailman socket: malformed response
>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.637153-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>> warning: transport mailman failure -- see a previous warning/fatal/panic
>> logfile record for the problem description
>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.638431-04:00 listservhostname postfix/master[13722]:
>> warning: process /usr/libexec/postfix/pipe pid 13803 exit status 1
>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.638453-04:00 listservhostname postfix/master[13722]:
>> warning: /usr/libexec/postfix/pipe: bad command startup -- throttling
>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.656307-04:00 listservhostname postfix/error[13805]:
>> 790A84583: to=<systems-changelog at lists.listdomain.com>, relay=none,
>> delay=1.2, delays=0.14/1/0/0.01, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (unknown mail
>> transport error)
>> 2014-07-17T10:39:42.687502-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>> 740AF107: from=<username at listdomain.com>, size=5114, nrcpt=1 (queue
>> active)
>> 2014-07-17T10:39:42.699454-04:00 listservhostname postfix/error[13805]:
>> 740AF107: to=<systems-changelog at lists.listdomain.com>, relay=none,
>> delay=539, delays=539/0.01/0/0, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (unknown mail
>> transport error)
>>
>>
>

From bsfinkel at att.net  Mon Jul 21 18:29:02 2014
From: bsfinkel at att.net (Barry S. Finkel)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 11:29:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] postfix errors
In-Reply-To: <CAG8E47Q35zgHY+o7vYt35tcHnw7s=JZpk8WsqQOsgXqEGWFOTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG8E47R9N6c-XJFuDZVnQSwg5F5u2HvCae4KOWQGnSSbaBpDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47QaUdLr7RV=UGXZ5-n1CoQiQ0yQkt6_ATjoDDYp1Md_Bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47Q35zgHY+o7vYt35tcHnw7s=JZpk8WsqQOsgXqEGWFOTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53CD3FCE.3090400@att.net>

On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Jimmy <g17jimmy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure why it's trying to use a username 'list', if that is the
>> problem. Here are the things you mentioned. Thanks.
>>
>> ======master.cf======
>> mailman   unix  -       n       n       -       -       pipe
>>    flags=FR user=list argv=/usr/lib/mailman/bin/postfix-to-mailman.py
>>    ${nexthop} ${user}
>>
>> ======/etc/postfix/transport======
>> lists.listdomain.com  mailman:
>>
>> ======postconf -n======
>> alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases
>> alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases
>> command_directory = /usr/sbin
>> config_directory = /etc/postfix
>> daemon_directory = /usr/libexec/postfix
>> data_directory = /var/lib/postfix
>> default_privs = nobody
>> html_directory = no
>> inet_interfaces = all
>> inet_protocols = ipv4
>> mail_owner = postfix
>> mailq_path = /usr/bin/mailq.postfix
>> mydestination = $myhostname localhost.$mydomain localhost
>> lists.listdomain.com
>> mydomain = lists.listdomain.com
>> mynetworks = 10.0.0.0/8
>> mynetworks_style = subnet
>> newaliases_path = /usr/bin/newaliases.postfix
>> queue_directory = /var/spool/postfix
>> recipient_delimiter = +
>> relay_domains = listdomain.com
>> relayhost = mailserver.prod.listdomain.com
>> sendmail_path = /usr/sbin/sendmail.postfix
>> setgid_group = postdrop
>> soft_bounce = no
>> transport_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/transport
>> unknown_local_recipient_reject_code = 550
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Jimmy <g17jimmy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I am still working on this new mailman system and seeing these errors
>>> when an email is sent to the system. I've googled the errors and haven't
>>> yet found anything that helps. Any ideas? Thanks
>>>
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.396296-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
>>> connect from unknown[10.0.0.1]
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.497048-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
>>> 790A84583: client=unknown[10.0.0.1]
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.613030-04:00 listservhostname postfix/cleanup[13802]:
>>> 790A84583: message-id=<
>>> 7e1decc87c4844c18882f3a27eefa406 at CORPEXCHMBX10.listdomain.com>
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.625741-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>>> 790A84583: from=<username at listdomain.com>, size=5925, nrcpt=1 (queue
>>> active)
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.635273-04:00 listservhostname postfix/pipe[13803]:
>>> fatal: get_service_attr: unknown username: list
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.666526-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
>>> disconnect from unknown[10.0.0.1]
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.637115-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>>> warning: private/mailman socket: malformed response
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.637153-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>>> warning: transport mailman failure -- see a previous warning/fatal/panic
>>> logfile record for the problem description
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.638431-04:00 listservhostname postfix/master[13722]:
>>> warning: process /usr/libexec/postfix/pipe pid 13803 exit status 1
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.638453-04:00 listservhostname postfix/master[13722]:
>>> warning: /usr/libexec/postfix/pipe: bad command startup -- throttling
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.656307-04:00 listservhostname postfix/error[13805]:
>>> 790A84583: to=<systems-changelog at lists.listdomain.com>, relay=none,
>>> delay=1.2, delays=0.14/1/0/0.01, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (unknown mail
>>> transport error)
>>> 2014-07-17T10:39:42.687502-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>>> 740AF107: from=<username at listdomain.com>, size=5114, nrcpt=1 (queue
>>> active)
>>> 2014-07-17T10:39:42.699454-04:00 listservhostname postfix/error[13805]:
>>> 740AF107: to=<systems-changelog at lists.listdomain.com>, relay=none,
>>> delay=539, delays=539/0.01/0/0, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (unknown mail
>>> transport error)


On 7/21/2014 11:05 AM, Jimmy wrote:> Based on this error and the 
following link I think I'm missing something
 > from my /etc/postfix/transport.
 >
 > "unknown mail transport error"
 > 
http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Mailman+-+Postfix+integration+with+Mailman+generated+transport+or+other+maps
 >
 > I used the 'integrating mailman and postfix' guide but don't see what I
 > need to do to fix it.
 > Thanks


Why do you use   postfix-to-mailman.py ?
That piece is not recommended by the Mailman developers.  See

      http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=15564817

--Barry Finkel


From g17jimmy at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 19:04:30 2014
From: g17jimmy at gmail.com (Jimmy)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 13:04:30 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] postfix errors
In-Reply-To: <CAG8E47Q35zgHY+o7vYt35tcHnw7s=JZpk8WsqQOsgXqEGWFOTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG8E47R9N6c-XJFuDZVnQSwg5F5u2HvCae4KOWQGnSSbaBpDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47QaUdLr7RV=UGXZ5-n1CoQiQ0yQkt6_ATjoDDYp1Md_Bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47Q35zgHY+o7vYt35tcHnw7s=JZpk8WsqQOsgXqEGWFOTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG8E47R03n5M3JU7NXH2tDWo9jh9QMj27Eg9qP1_mosBBFk_uA@mail.gmail.com>

I found that the file /usr/lib/mailman/bin/postfix-to-mailman.py does not
exist on my system, postfix-to-mailman.py  isn't anywhere on my system at
all, so that obviously presents a problem. Is that not normally in the RPM
installation?

Thanks


On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Jimmy <g17jimmy at gmail.com> wrote:

> Based on this error and the following link I think I'm missing something
> from my /etc/postfix/transport.
>
> "unknown mail transport error"
>
> http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Mailman+-+Postfix+integration+with+Mailman+generated+transport+or+other+maps
>
> I used the 'integrating mailman and postfix' guide but don't see what I
> need to do to fix it.
> Thanks
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Jimmy <g17jimmy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure why it's trying to use a username 'list', if that is the
>> problem. Here are the things you mentioned. Thanks.
>>
>> ======master.cf======
>> mailman   unix  -       n       n       -       -       pipe
>>   flags=FR user=list argv=/usr/lib/mailman/bin/postfix-to-mailman.py
>>   ${nexthop} ${user}
>>
>> ======/etc/postfix/transport======
>> lists.listdomain.com  mailman:
>>
>> ======postconf -n======
>> alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases
>> alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases
>> command_directory = /usr/sbin
>> config_directory = /etc/postfix
>> daemon_directory = /usr/libexec/postfix
>> data_directory = /var/lib/postfix
>> default_privs = nobody
>> html_directory = no
>> inet_interfaces = all
>> inet_protocols = ipv4
>> mail_owner = postfix
>> mailq_path = /usr/bin/mailq.postfix
>> mydestination = $myhostname localhost.$mydomain localhost
>> lists.listdomain.com
>> mydomain = lists.listdomain.com
>> mynetworks = 10.0.0.0/8
>> mynetworks_style = subnet
>> newaliases_path = /usr/bin/newaliases.postfix
>> queue_directory = /var/spool/postfix
>> recipient_delimiter = +
>> relay_domains = listdomain.com
>> relayhost = mailserver.prod.listdomain.com
>> sendmail_path = /usr/sbin/sendmail.postfix
>> setgid_group = postdrop
>> soft_bounce = no
>> transport_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/transport
>> unknown_local_recipient_reject_code = 550
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Jimmy <g17jimmy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I am still working on this new mailman system and seeing these errors
>>> when an email is sent to the system. I've googled the errors and haven't
>>> yet found anything that helps. Any ideas? Thanks
>>>
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.396296-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
>>> connect from unknown[10.0.0.1]
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.497048-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
>>> 790A84583: client=unknown[10.0.0.1]
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.613030-04:00 listservhostname
>>> postfix/cleanup[13802]: 790A84583: message-id=<
>>> 7e1decc87c4844c18882f3a27eefa406 at CORPEXCHMBX10.listdomain.com>
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.625741-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>>> 790A84583: from=<username at listdomain.com>, size=5925, nrcpt=1 (queue
>>> active)
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.635273-04:00 listservhostname postfix/pipe[13803]:
>>> fatal: get_service_attr: unknown username: list
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.666526-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
>>> disconnect from unknown[10.0.0.1]
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.637115-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>>> warning: private/mailman socket: malformed response
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.637153-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>>> warning: transport mailman failure -- see a previous warning/fatal/panic
>>> logfile record for the problem description
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.638431-04:00 listservhostname postfix/master[13722]:
>>> warning: process /usr/libexec/postfix/pipe pid 13803 exit status 1
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.638453-04:00 listservhostname postfix/master[13722]:
>>> warning: /usr/libexec/postfix/pipe: bad command startup -- throttling
>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.656307-04:00 listservhostname postfix/error[13805]:
>>> 790A84583: to=<systems-changelog at lists.listdomain.com>, relay=none,
>>> delay=1.2, delays=0.14/1/0/0.01, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (unknown mail
>>> transport error)
>>> 2014-07-17T10:39:42.687502-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>>> 740AF107: from=<username at listdomain.com>, size=5114, nrcpt=1 (queue
>>> active)
>>> 2014-07-17T10:39:42.699454-04:00 listservhostname postfix/error[13805]:
>>> 740AF107: to=<systems-changelog at lists.listdomain.com>, relay=none,
>>> delay=539, delays=539/0.01/0/0, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (unknown mail
>>> transport error)
>>>
>>>
>>
>

From g17jimmy at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 19:43:43 2014
From: g17jimmy at gmail.com (Jimmy)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 13:43:43 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] postfix errors
In-Reply-To: <CAG8E47R03n5M3JU7NXH2tDWo9jh9QMj27Eg9qP1_mosBBFk_uA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG8E47R9N6c-XJFuDZVnQSwg5F5u2HvCae4KOWQGnSSbaBpDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47QaUdLr7RV=UGXZ5-n1CoQiQ0yQkt6_ATjoDDYp1Md_Bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47Q35zgHY+o7vYt35tcHnw7s=JZpk8WsqQOsgXqEGWFOTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47R03n5M3JU7NXH2tDWo9jh9QMj27Eg9qP1_mosBBFk_uA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG8E47SkhmpAcvLvaotXsgrn1nRh24N7V22+3RC4OobipDQPtA@mail.gmail.com>

I just found where the postfix-to-mailman line came from:

http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Integrating+Mailman+with+postfix

And see that Mark specifically recommends not using this doc. I'm backing
that config out.


On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 1:04 PM, Jimmy <g17jimmy at gmail.com> wrote:

> I found that the file /usr/lib/mailman/bin/postfix-to-mailman.py does not
> exist on my system, postfix-to-mailman.py  isn't anywhere on my system at
> all, so that obviously presents a problem. Is that not normally in the RPM
> installation?
>
> Thanks
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Jimmy <g17jimmy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Based on this error and the following link I think I'm missing something
>> from my /etc/postfix/transport.
>>
>> "unknown mail transport error"
>>
>> http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Mailman+-+Postfix+integration+with+Mailman+generated+transport+or+other+maps
>>
>> I used the 'integrating mailman and postfix' guide but don't see what I
>> need to do to fix it.
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Jimmy <g17jimmy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not sure why it's trying to use a username 'list', if that is the
>>> problem. Here are the things you mentioned. Thanks.
>>>
>>> ======master.cf======
>>> mailman   unix  -       n       n       -       -       pipe
>>>   flags=FR user=list argv=/usr/lib/mailman/bin/postfix-to-mailman.py
>>>   ${nexthop} ${user}
>>>
>>> ======/etc/postfix/transport======
>>> lists.listdomain.com  mailman:
>>>
>>> ======postconf -n======
>>> alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases
>>> alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases
>>> command_directory = /usr/sbin
>>> config_directory = /etc/postfix
>>> daemon_directory = /usr/libexec/postfix
>>> data_directory = /var/lib/postfix
>>> default_privs = nobody
>>> html_directory = no
>>> inet_interfaces = all
>>> inet_protocols = ipv4
>>> mail_owner = postfix
>>> mailq_path = /usr/bin/mailq.postfix
>>> mydestination = $myhostname localhost.$mydomain localhost
>>> lists.listdomain.com
>>> mydomain = lists.listdomain.com
>>> mynetworks = 10.0.0.0/8
>>> mynetworks_style = subnet
>>> newaliases_path = /usr/bin/newaliases.postfix
>>> queue_directory = /var/spool/postfix
>>> recipient_delimiter = +
>>> relay_domains = listdomain.com
>>> relayhost = mailserver.prod.listdomain.com
>>> sendmail_path = /usr/sbin/sendmail.postfix
>>> setgid_group = postdrop
>>> soft_bounce = no
>>> transport_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/transport
>>> unknown_local_recipient_reject_code = 550
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Jimmy <g17jimmy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am still working on this new mailman system and seeing these errors
>>>> when an email is sent to the system. I've googled the errors and haven't
>>>> yet found anything that helps. Any ideas? Thanks
>>>>
>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.396296-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
>>>> connect from unknown[10.0.0.1]
>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.497048-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
>>>> 790A84583: client=unknown[10.0.0.1]
>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.613030-04:00 listservhostname
>>>> postfix/cleanup[13802]: 790A84583: message-id=<
>>>> 7e1decc87c4844c18882f3a27eefa406 at CORPEXCHMBX10.listdomain.com>
>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.625741-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>>>> 790A84583: from=<username at listdomain.com>, size=5925, nrcpt=1 (queue
>>>> active)
>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.635273-04:00 listservhostname postfix/pipe[13803]:
>>>> fatal: get_service_attr: unknown username: list
>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.666526-04:00 listservhostname postfix/smtpd[13799]:
>>>> disconnect from unknown[10.0.0.1]
>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.637115-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>>>> warning: private/mailman socket: malformed response
>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.637153-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>>>> warning: transport mailman failure -- see a previous warning/fatal/panic
>>>> logfile record for the problem description
>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.638431-04:00 listservhostname
>>>> postfix/master[13722]: warning: process /usr/libexec/postfix/pipe pid 13803
>>>> exit status 1
>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.638453-04:00 listservhostname
>>>> postfix/master[13722]: warning: /usr/libexec/postfix/pipe: bad command
>>>> startup -- throttling
>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.656307-04:00 listservhostname postfix/error[13805]:
>>>> 790A84583: to=<systems-changelog at lists.listdomain.com>, relay=none,
>>>> delay=1.2, delays=0.14/1/0/0.01, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (unknown mail
>>>> transport error)
>>>> 2014-07-17T10:39:42.687502-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>>>> 740AF107: from=<username at listdomain.com>, size=5114, nrcpt=1 (queue
>>>> active)
>>>> 2014-07-17T10:39:42.699454-04:00 listservhostname postfix/error[13805]:
>>>> 740AF107: to=<systems-changelog at lists.listdomain.com>, relay=none,
>>>> delay=539, delays=539/0.01/0/0, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (unknown mail
>>>> transport error)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

From dave.lists at nathanson.org  Mon Jul 21 19:59:53 2014
From: dave.lists at nathanson.org (Dave Nathanson)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 10:59:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net> <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
 <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>
Message-ID: <6762DDC5-F1E8-4046-8937-2477CD8FD65C@nathanson.org>

Hi Peter,
To answer your question, Dreamhost has the *almost* newest version of MailMan 2.1.17. They upgraded just as 2.1.18 came out and had already tested 2.1.17 so they went with that. And this version does have the most important DMARC mitigation features. So it is working for us. 

I have never had any problem with DreamHost imposing a message sending cap on their "1-Click" installs of Mailman. I run several discussion lists there completely without incident, for 8 years.... Until this whole Yahoo/demarc mess. And we are back to normal. No host is perfect, but considering the low price & all the "unlimited everything" they offer, I'm very happy with mine. Considering the price you have been paying, you will most likely need to pay more to get out of this problem, but maybe not much more. 
http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?250640/hosting.html

Best,
Dave Nathanson
Mac Medix


> On Jul 20, 2014, at 1:35 PM, Peter Shute <pshute at nuw.org.au> wrote:
> 
> No, it's all hosted via cpanel. Does this mail per hour limit seem odd with that sort of setup?
> 
> Does dreamhost keep their mailman up to date? We're still on 2.1.15, and when I asked about upgrading, they wouldn't commit to any date, only that it would be more likely to be months than a month.
> 
> Peter Shute
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On 21 Jul 2014, at 1:35 am, "Dave Nathanson" <dave.lists at nathanson.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I'm surprised that any web/email host would apply a rule intended for a personal email account to a listserve. I'm guessing that you are running MailMan on your own computer, then using mail server provided by your email hosting company to send the messages. So to the email host, you do look like a very busy personal account. 
>> 
>> As I see it, your options include:
>> 
>> * Discuss this limitation with your email host & see if they will waive the message sending cap for your listserv.
>> * Use a mailman installation hosted by your email hosting company, which is not subject to a message sending cap. 
>> * Changing email hosts & using a mailman installation hosted by your email hosting company, which is not subject to a message sending cap. 
>> 
>> No need to change registrars. NameCheap is a good registrar, better than many. I haven't used their web/email hosting. 
>> 
>> My email lists are all running on Mailman provided by my email host. You don't even need to install it, just choose a dedicated subdomain for it to run on. They do NOT limit message flow from Mailman, although they do limit the number of messages per hour sent from a personal mail account. No web/email host is perfect, but I'm pretty happy with DreamHost. Especially for about $100 a year for more services than I can possibly use. (And I'm giving it a good go!). 
>> 
>> Here is a Dreamhost Coupon code & link that will give you $10 off now, plus 1 free LIFETIME domain registration. So that's a savings of about $11 a year for life. MACMEDIXFREEDOM  What else is included? Tons! Check it out.
>> http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?250640/hosting.html
>> 
>> Best, 
>> Dave Nathanson
>> Mac Medix
>> 
>>> On Jul 20, 2014, at 4:38 AM, Russell Woodford <rdwoodford at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Peter, Mark and all
>>> 
>>> I think I may have the solution now (Peter is one of our list moderators).
>>> My web host is now telling me that there is a 200 emails per hour limit for
>>> my hosting plan. We have 1140 subscribers. That means we blow the limit out
>>> of the water EVERY time someone posts!
>>> 
>>> I'm not sure why they have taken so long to tell me this, as we've been
>>> running on this host for over 7 months, but it seems they throttle the
>>> outgoing mail volume, so it can take a while for all those recipients to
>>> get each message. I suppose it depends on overall server activity - if
>>> nothing else is happening, then maybe a new message does get straight to
>>> 1140 recipients.
>>> 
>>> Looks like we will need to shift to a new listserver and maybe even a new
>>> webhost - and maybe even a new domain registrar (I've had all my eggs in
>>> the Namecheap basket for some years now).  Somehow I don't think I am going
>>> to get away with this volume of mail for the $50 a year I'm currently
>>> paying :-(
>>> 
>>> Russell Woodford
>>> Geelong, Australia
>>> birding-aus.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> On 18 July 2014 11:20, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 07/17/2014 05:01 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've now enabled protocol logging on our Exchange server, a new world
>>>> for me. I can see several possibly relevant events in yesterday's logs that
>>>> look like this:
>>>>> 2014-07-17T07:02:03.914Z,NUWVICMS2\Default NUWVICMS2,08D145520008BC68,24,
>>>> 192.168.0.36:25,192.64.112.70:38732,>,550 5.7.1 Requested action not
>>>> taken: message refused,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> This is a 550 (extended 5.7.,1) status which is a permanent failure.
>>>> This is a bounce and will (should) not be retried by the sending server.
>>>> 
>>>> I doubt that this specific log message has anything to do with your
>>>> delayed messages.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> But if the antispam software is refusing the messages, how do they
>>>> eventually get through?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Exactly.
>>>> 
>>>> You could look at the logs on the 192.64.112.70 sending server to see
>>>> what that server did with this message after it was bounced by the
>>>> exchange server.
>>>> 
>>>> If the Mailman server is sending directly to the exchange server and
>>>> that is where the delays are occurring, you need to look at the MTA logs
>>>> of the Mailman server and see what's there relevant to sending failures
>>>> and resends.
>>>> 
>>>> But, this thread no longer has anything to do with Mailman. Perhaps you
>>>> could find another list/forum to discuss this that might be able to
>>>> provide more expertise in this area.
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>> 

From g17jimmy at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 20:22:06 2014
From: g17jimmy at gmail.com (Jimmy)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 14:22:06 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] postfix errors
In-Reply-To: <CAG8E47SkhmpAcvLvaotXsgrn1nRh24N7V22+3RC4OobipDQPtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG8E47R9N6c-XJFuDZVnQSwg5F5u2HvCae4KOWQGnSSbaBpDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47QaUdLr7RV=UGXZ5-n1CoQiQ0yQkt6_ATjoDDYp1Md_Bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47Q35zgHY+o7vYt35tcHnw7s=JZpk8WsqQOsgXqEGWFOTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47R03n5M3JU7NXH2tDWo9jh9QMj27Eg9qP1_mosBBFk_uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47SkhmpAcvLvaotXsgrn1nRh24N7V22+3RC4OobipDQPtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG8E47QUy+0_+TAr_98dJ=ipVGSjsV=mKkez5m3S6F4otqihTQ@mail.gmail.com>

Backed out the 3rd party mailman module config, corrected the permissions
on the aliases* files, restarted mailman and postfix and all is functional
now. Thanks!


On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Jimmy <g17jimmy at gmail.com> wrote:

> I just found where the postfix-to-mailman line came from:
>
> http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Integrating+Mailman+with+postfix
>
> And see that Mark specifically recommends not using this doc. I'm backing
> that config out.
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 1:04 PM, Jimmy <g17jimmy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I found that the file /usr/lib/mailman/bin/postfix-to-mailman.py does not
>> exist on my system, postfix-to-mailman.py  isn't anywhere on my system at
>> all, so that obviously presents a problem. Is that not normally in the RPM
>> installation?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Jimmy <g17jimmy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Based on this error and the following link I think I'm missing something
>>> from my /etc/postfix/transport.
>>>
>>> "unknown mail transport error"
>>>
>>> http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Mailman+-+Postfix+integration+with+Mailman+generated+transport+or+other+maps
>>>
>>> I used the 'integrating mailman and postfix' guide but don't see what I
>>> need to do to fix it.
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Jimmy <g17jimmy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm not sure why it's trying to use a username 'list', if that is the
>>>> problem. Here are the things you mentioned. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> ======master.cf======
>>>> mailman   unix  -       n       n       -       -       pipe
>>>>   flags=FR user=list argv=/usr/lib/mailman/bin/postfix-to-mailman.py
>>>>   ${nexthop} ${user}
>>>>
>>>> ======/etc/postfix/transport======
>>>> lists.listdomain.com  mailman:
>>>>
>>>> ======postconf -n======
>>>> alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases
>>>> alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases
>>>> command_directory = /usr/sbin
>>>> config_directory = /etc/postfix
>>>> daemon_directory = /usr/libexec/postfix
>>>> data_directory = /var/lib/postfix
>>>> default_privs = nobody
>>>> html_directory = no
>>>> inet_interfaces = all
>>>> inet_protocols = ipv4
>>>> mail_owner = postfix
>>>> mailq_path = /usr/bin/mailq.postfix
>>>> mydestination = $myhostname localhost.$mydomain localhost
>>>> lists.listdomain.com
>>>> mydomain = lists.listdomain.com
>>>> mynetworks = 10.0.0.0/8
>>>> mynetworks_style = subnet
>>>> newaliases_path = /usr/bin/newaliases.postfix
>>>> queue_directory = /var/spool/postfix
>>>> recipient_delimiter = +
>>>> relay_domains = listdomain.com
>>>> relayhost = mailserver.prod.listdomain.com
>>>> sendmail_path = /usr/sbin/sendmail.postfix
>>>> setgid_group = postdrop
>>>> soft_bounce = no
>>>> transport_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/transport
>>>> unknown_local_recipient_reject_code = 550
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Jimmy <g17jimmy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I am still working on this new mailman system and seeing these errors
>>>>> when an email is sent to the system. I've googled the errors and haven't
>>>>> yet found anything that helps. Any ideas? Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.396296-04:00 listservhostname
>>>>> postfix/smtpd[13799]: connect from unknown[10.0.0.1]
>>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.497048-04:00 listservhostname
>>>>> postfix/smtpd[13799]: 790A84583: client=unknown[10.0.0.1]
>>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.613030-04:00 listservhostname
>>>>> postfix/cleanup[13802]: 790A84583: message-id=<
>>>>> 7e1decc87c4844c18882f3a27eefa406 at CORPEXCHMBX10.listdomain.com>
>>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.625741-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>>>>> 790A84583: from=<username at listdomain.com>, size=5925, nrcpt=1 (queue
>>>>> active)
>>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.635273-04:00 listservhostname postfix/pipe[13803]:
>>>>> fatal: get_service_attr: unknown username: list
>>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:52.666526-04:00 listservhostname
>>>>> postfix/smtpd[13799]: disconnect from unknown[10.0.0.1]
>>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.637115-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>>>>> warning: private/mailman socket: malformed response
>>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.637153-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>>>>> warning: transport mailman failure -- see a previous warning/fatal/panic
>>>>> logfile record for the problem description
>>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.638431-04:00 listservhostname
>>>>> postfix/master[13722]: warning: process /usr/libexec/postfix/pipe pid 13803
>>>>> exit status 1
>>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.638453-04:00 listservhostname
>>>>> postfix/master[13722]: warning: /usr/libexec/postfix/pipe: bad command
>>>>> startup -- throttling
>>>>> 2014-07-17T10:38:53.656307-04:00 listservhostname
>>>>> postfix/error[13805]: 790A84583: to=<
>>>>> systems-changelog at lists.listdomain.com>, relay=none, delay=1.2,
>>>>> delays=0.14/1/0/0.01, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (unknown mail transport
>>>>> error)
>>>>> 2014-07-17T10:39:42.687502-04:00 listservhostname postfix/qmgr[13725]:
>>>>> 740AF107: from=<username at listdomain.com>, size=5114, nrcpt=1 (queue
>>>>> active)
>>>>> 2014-07-17T10:39:42.699454-04:00 listservhostname
>>>>> postfix/error[13805]: 740AF107: to=<
>>>>> systems-changelog at lists.listdomain.com>, relay=none, delay=539,
>>>>> delays=539/0.01/0/0, dsn=4.3.0, status=deferred (unknown mail transport
>>>>> error)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Mon Jul 21 20:56:25 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 04:56:25 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <6762DDC5-F1E8-4046-8937-2477CD8FD65C@nathanson.org>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net> <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
 <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>
 <6762DDC5-F1E8-4046-8937-2477CD8FD65C@nathanson.org>
Message-ID: <8006A547-1CE8-4596-8204-8A55C821EA3A@nuw.org.au>

Thanks, Dave. How are you coping with yahoo emails if you've only got 2.1.17? I can't remember what changes it's got in it, but I thought the latest dealt with it better.

Peter Shute 

Sent from my iPad

> On 22 Jul 2014, at 3:59 am, "Dave Nathanson" <dave.lists at nathanson.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Peter,
> To answer your question, Dreamhost has the *almost* newest version of MailMan 2.1.17. They upgraded just as 2.1.18 came out and had already tested 2.1.17 so they went with that. And this version does have the most important DMARC mitigation features. So it is working for us. 
> 
> I have never had any problem with DreamHost imposing a message sending cap on their "1-Click" installs of Mailman. I run several discussion lists there completely without incident, for 8 years.... Until this whole Yahoo/demarc mess. And we are back to normal. No host is perfect, but considering the low price & all the "unlimited everything" they offer, I'm very happy with mine. Considering the price you have been paying, you will most likely need to pay more to get out of this problem, but maybe not much more. 
> http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?250640/hosting.html
> 
> Best,
> Dave Nathanson
> Mac Medix
> 
> 
>> On Jul 20, 2014, at 1:35 PM, Peter Shute <pshute at nuw.org.au> wrote:
>> 
>> No, it's all hosted via cpanel. Does this mail per hour limit seem odd with that sort of setup?
>> 
>> Does dreamhost keep their mailman up to date? We're still on 2.1.15, and when I asked about upgrading, they wouldn't commit to any date, only that it would be more likely to be months than a month.
>> 
>> Peter Shute
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On 21 Jul 2014, at 1:35 am, "Dave Nathanson" <dave.lists at nathanson.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm surprised that any web/email host would apply a rule intended for a personal email account to a listserve. I'm guessing that you are running MailMan on your own computer, then using mail server provided by your email hosting company to send the messages. So to the email host, you do look like a very busy personal account. 
>>> 
>>> As I see it, your options include:
>>> 
>>> * Discuss this limitation with your email host & see if they will waive the message sending cap for your listserv.
>>> * Use a mailman installation hosted by your email hosting company, which is not subject to a message sending cap. 
>>> * Changing email hosts & using a mailman installation hosted by your email hosting company, which is not subject to a message sending cap. 
>>> 
>>> No need to change registrars. NameCheap is a good registrar, better than many. I haven't used their web/email hosting. 
>>> 
>>> My email lists are all running on Mailman provided by my email host. You don't even need to install it, just choose a dedicated subdomain for it to run on. They do NOT limit message flow from Mailman, although they do limit the number of messages per hour sent from a personal mail account. No web/email host is perfect, but I'm pretty happy with DreamHost. Especially for about $100 a year for more services than I can possibly use. (And I'm giving it a good go!). 
>>> 
>>> Here is a Dreamhost Coupon code & link that will give you $10 off now, plus 1 free LIFETIME domain registration. So that's a savings of about $11 a year for life. MACMEDIXFREEDOM  What else is included? Tons! Check it out.
>>> http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?250640/hosting.html
>>> 
>>> Best, 
>>> Dave Nathanson
>>> Mac Medix
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 20, 2014, at 4:38 AM, Russell Woodford <rdwoodford at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Peter, Mark and all
>>>> 
>>>> I think I may have the solution now (Peter is one of our list moderators).
>>>> My web host is now telling me that there is a 200 emails per hour limit for
>>>> my hosting plan. We have 1140 subscribers. That means we blow the limit out
>>>> of the water EVERY time someone posts!
>>>> 
>>>> I'm not sure why they have taken so long to tell me this, as we've been
>>>> running on this host for over 7 months, but it seems they throttle the
>>>> outgoing mail volume, so it can take a while for all those recipients to
>>>> get each message. I suppose it depends on overall server activity - if
>>>> nothing else is happening, then maybe a new message does get straight to
>>>> 1140 recipients.
>>>> 
>>>> Looks like we will need to shift to a new listserver and maybe even a new
>>>> webhost - and maybe even a new domain registrar (I've had all my eggs in
>>>> the Namecheap basket for some years now).  Somehow I don't think I am going
>>>> to get away with this volume of mail for the $50 a year I'm currently
>>>> paying :-(
>>>> 
>>>> Russell Woodford
>>>> Geelong, Australia
>>>> birding-aus.org
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>> On 18 July 2014 11:20, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 07/17/2014 05:01 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I've now enabled protocol logging on our Exchange server, a new world
>>>>> for me. I can see several possibly relevant events in yesterday's logs that
>>>>> look like this:
>>>>>> 2014-07-17T07:02:03.914Z,NUWVICMS2\Default NUWVICMS2,08D145520008BC68,24,
>>>>> 192.168.0.36:25,192.64.112.70:38732,>,550 5.7.1 Requested action not
>>>>> taken: message refused,
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> This is a 550 (extended 5.7.,1) status which is a permanent failure.
>>>>> This is a bounce and will (should) not be retried by the sending server.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I doubt that this specific log message has anything to do with your
>>>>> delayed messages.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> But if the antispam software is refusing the messages, how do they
>>>>> eventually get through?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Exactly.
>>>>> 
>>>>> You could look at the logs on the 192.64.112.70 sending server to see
>>>>> what that server did with this message after it was bounced by the
>>>>> exchange server.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If the Mailman server is sending directly to the exchange server and
>>>>> that is where the delays are occurring, you need to look at the MTA logs
>>>>> of the Mailman server and see what's there relevant to sending failures
>>>>> and resends.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But, this thread no longer has anything to do with Mailman. Perhaps you
>>>>> could find another list/forum to discuss this that might be able to
>>>>> provide more expertise in this area.
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>> 

From brian at emwd.com  Mon Jul 21 20:59:46 2014
From: brian at emwd.com (Brian Carpenter)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 14:59:46 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <8006A547-1CE8-4596-8204-8A55C821EA3A@nuw.org.au>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net> <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
 <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>
 <6762DDC5-F1E8-4046-8937-2477CD8FD65C@nathanson.org>
 <8006A547-1CE8-4596-8204-8A55C821EA3A@nuw.org.au>
Message-ID: <348a01cfa515$f11400f0$d33c02d0$@emwd.com>

The latest version (which we offer) offers additional moderation features
that gives list administrators more options in working with ISPs with poor
DMARC policies.

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-announce/2014-April/000188.html


Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: brian at emwd.com
www.emwd.com
www.mailmanhost.com


?



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
> bounces+brian=emwd.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Peter Shute
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 2:56 PM
> To: Dave Nathanson
> Cc: mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
> 
> Thanks, Dave. How are you coping with yahoo emails if you've only got
> 2.1.17? I can't remember what changes it's got in it, but I thought the
latest
> dealt with it better.
> 
> Peter Shute
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> > On 22 Jul 2014, at 3:59 am, "Dave Nathanson" <dave.lists at nathanson.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Peter,
> > To answer your question, Dreamhost has the *almost* newest version of
> MailMan 2.1.17. They upgraded just as 2.1.18 came out and had already
> tested 2.1.17 so they went with that. And this version does have the most
> important DMARC mitigation features. So it is working for us.
> >
> > I have never had any problem with DreamHost imposing a message
> sending cap on their "1-Click" installs of Mailman. I run several
discussion lists
> there completely without incident, for 8 years.... Until this whole
> Yahoo/demarc mess. And we are back to normal. No host is perfect, but
> considering the low price & all the "unlimited everything" they offer, I'm
very
> happy with mine. Considering the price you have been paying, you will most
> likely need to pay more to get out of this problem, but maybe not much
> more.
> > http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?250640/hosting.html
> >
> > Best,
> > Dave Nathanson
> > Mac Medix
> >
> >
> >> On Jul 20, 2014, at 1:35 PM, Peter Shute <pshute at nuw.org.au> wrote:
> >>
> >> No, it's all hosted via cpanel. Does this mail per hour limit seem odd
with
> that sort of setup?
> >>
> >> Does dreamhost keep their mailman up to date? We're still on 2.1.15,
and
> when I asked about upgrading, they wouldn't commit to any date, only that
it
> would be more likely to be months than a month.
> >>
> >> Peter Shute
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPad
> >>
> >>> On 21 Jul 2014, at 1:35 am, "Dave Nathanson"
> <dave.lists at nathanson.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I'm surprised that any web/email host would apply a rule intended for
a
> personal email account to a listserve. I'm guessing that you are running
> MailMan on your own computer, then using mail server provided by your
> email hosting company to send the messages. So to the email host, you do
> look like a very busy personal account.
> >>>
> >>> As I see it, your options include:
> >>>
> >>> * Discuss this limitation with your email host & see if they will
waive the
> message sending cap for your listserv.
> >>> * Use a mailman installation hosted by your email hosting company,
> which is not subject to a message sending cap.
> >>> * Changing email hosts & using a mailman installation hosted by your
> email hosting company, which is not subject to a message sending cap.
> >>>
> >>> No need to change registrars. NameCheap is a good registrar, better
> than many. I haven't used their web/email hosting.
> >>>
> >>> My email lists are all running on Mailman provided by my email host.
You
> don't even need to install it, just choose a dedicated subdomain for it to
run
> on. They do NOT limit message flow from Mailman, although they do limit
> the number of messages per hour sent from a personal mail account. No
> web/email host is perfect, but I'm pretty happy with DreamHost. Especially
> for about $100 a year for more services than I can possibly use. (And I'm
> giving it a good go!).
> >>>
> >>> Here is a Dreamhost Coupon code & link that will give you $10 off now,
> plus 1 free LIFETIME domain registration. So that's a savings of about $11
a
> year for life. MACMEDIXFREEDOM  What else is included? Tons! Check it out.
> >>> http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?250640/hosting.html
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Dave Nathanson
> >>> Mac Medix
> >>>
> >>>> On Jul 20, 2014, at 4:38 AM, Russell Woodford
> <rdwoodford at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Peter, Mark and all
> >>>>
> >>>> I think I may have the solution now (Peter is one of our list
> moderators).
> >>>> My web host is now telling me that there is a 200 emails per hour
limit
> for
> >>>> my hosting plan. We have 1140 subscribers. That means we blow the
> limit out
> >>>> of the water EVERY time someone posts!
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not sure why they have taken so long to tell me this, as we've
been
> >>>> running on this host for over 7 months, but it seems they throttle
the
> >>>> outgoing mail volume, so it can take a while for all those recipients
to
> >>>> get each message. I suppose it depends on overall server activity -
if
> >>>> nothing else is happening, then maybe a new message does get
> straight to
> >>>> 1140 recipients.
> >>>>
> >>>> Looks like we will need to shift to a new listserver and maybe even a
> new
> >>>> webhost - and maybe even a new domain registrar (I've had all my eggs
> in
> >>>> the Namecheap basket for some years now).  Somehow I don't think I
> am going
> >>>> to get away with this volume of mail for the $50 a year I'm currently
> >>>> paying :-(
> >>>>
> >>>> Russell Woodford
> >>>> Geelong, Australia
> >>>> birding-aus.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> On 18 July 2014 11:20, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 07/17/2014 05:01 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I've now enabled protocol logging on our Exchange server, a new
> world
> >>>>> for me. I can see several possibly relevant events in yesterday's
logs
> that
> >>>>> look like this:
> >>>>>> 2014-07-17T07:02:03.914Z,NUWVICMS2\Default
> NUWVICMS2,08D145520008BC68,24,
> >>>>> 192.168.0.36:25,192.64.112.70:38732,>,550 5.7.1 Requested action not
> >>>>> taken: message refused,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This is a 550 (extended 5.7.,1) status which is a permanent failure.
> >>>>> This is a bounce and will (should) not be retried by the sending
server.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I doubt that this specific log message has anything to do with your
> >>>>> delayed messages.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> But if the antispam software is refusing the messages, how do they
> >>>>> eventually get through?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Exactly.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You could look at the logs on the 192.64.112.70 sending server to
see
> >>>>> what that server did with this message after it was bounced by the
> >>>>> exchange server.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If the Mailman server is sending directly to the exchange server and
> >>>>> that is where the delays are occurring, you need to look at the MTA
> logs
> >>>>> of the Mailman server and see what's there relevant to sending
> failures
> >>>>> and resends.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But, this thread no longer has anything to do with Mailman. Perhaps
> you
> >>>>> could find another list/forum to discuss this that might be able to
> >>>>> provide more expertise in this area.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
> users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
> users/brian%40emwd.com


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jul 22 02:51:26 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 09:51:26 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] postfix errors
In-Reply-To: <CAG8E47R03n5M3JU7NXH2tDWo9jh9QMj27Eg9qP1_mosBBFk_uA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG8E47R9N6c-XJFuDZVnQSwg5F5u2HvCae4KOWQGnSSbaBpDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47QaUdLr7RV=UGXZ5-n1CoQiQ0yQkt6_ATjoDDYp1Md_Bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47Q35zgHY+o7vYt35tcHnw7s=JZpk8WsqQOsgXqEGWFOTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47R03n5M3JU7NXH2tDWo9jh9QMj27Eg9qP1_mosBBFk_uA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <878unmp65t.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Jimmy writes:

 > I found that the file /usr/lib/mailman/bin/postfix-to-mailman.py does not
 > exist on my system, postfix-to-mailman.py  isn't anywhere on my system at
 > all, so that obviously presents a problem. Is that not normally in the RPM
 > installation?

That's right.  IIRC, postfix-to-mailman.py was developed by Bruce
Perens and adopted by Debian because it fits their configuration
management philosophy better.  AFAIK you'll find it on Debian and
derivatives but not elsewhere.

 > > I used the 'integrating mailman and postfix' guide but don't see
 > > what I need to do to fix it.  Thanks

With open source software, 3rd party guides need to be treated with
care.

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jul 22 03:16:58 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 10:16:58 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <8006A547-1CE8-4596-8204-8A55C821EA3A@nuw.org.au>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net>
 <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
 <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>
 <6762DDC5-F1E8-4046-8937-2477CD8FD65C@nathanson.org>
 <8006A547-1CE8-4596-8204-8A55C821EA3A@nuw.org.au>
Message-ID: <877g36p4z9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Peter Shute writes:

 > Thanks, Dave. How are you coping with yahoo emails if you've only
 > got 2.1.17? I can't remember what changes it's got in it, but I
 > thought the latest dealt with it better.

IIRC the big difference between 2.1.17 and 2.1.18-1[1] is that in
2.1.17 the DMARC-mitigation features[2] are applied to *all* posts,
whereas in 2.1.18 you have the option of checking the DMARC policy and
only making those ugly changes to posts *from domains with a "p=reject"
DMARC policy* (requires an additional Python package to make the DNS
check for the policy).  You can also (in >= 2.1.18) "preemptively"[3]
reject such posts before trying to distribute them, and thus
distribute only posts that will not trigger DMARC rejects.

2.1.18-1 may also have some minor improvements in bounce handling, but
as far is I know this is still problematic as many receiving hosts
don't tell you that it's a DMARC reject, and even those that do have a
wide variety of idioms for indicating that.  So many DMARC rejects
will increment subscribers' bounce counts, even though the reject was
instigated by the poster's service provider.

Steve


Footnotes: 
[1]  Avoid 2.1.18, it has a bug that is fatal on some systems.

[2]  Encapsulation in a mini-digest which is From: mailman, or
directly munging from so that the address that appears there is
mailman's address, not the poster's.  The Reply-To field is tweaked so
that the poster can be addressed without copying the address by hand.

[3]  Usually at the Mailman host the post will pass the DMARC check,
and so the Mailman host's MTA may participate in DMARC protocols but
it will still deliver to Mailman regardless of DMARC policy at the
source.  However, due to the nature of the protocol, a Mailman list
which changes the post (even just a list tag in the Subject) will
necessarily fail the check, so Mailman knows when a DMARC reject of
distributed posts will occur.

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Tue Jul 22 03:50:47 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 11:50:47 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <877g36p4z9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net>	<87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
 <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>
 <6762DDC5-F1E8-4046-8937-2477CD8FD65C@nathanson.org>
 <8006A547-1CE8-4596-8204-8A55C821EA3A@nuw.org.au>
 <877g36p4z9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C3A3F@nuwvicms2>

Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> IIRC the big difference between 2.1.17 and 2.1.18-1[1] is that in
> 2.1.17 the DMARC-mitigation features[2] are applied to *all* 
> posts, whereas in 2.1.18 you have the option of checking the 
> DMARC policy and only making those ugly changes to posts 
> *from domains with a "p=reject"
> DMARC policy* (requires an additional Python package to make 
> the DNS check for the policy).

That was my impression too. It sounds less disruptive, but I wonder if the resulting variability of behaviour of Reply and Reply all would just cause confusion.

Peter Shute

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 22 03:57:33 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 18:57:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] postfix errors
In-Reply-To: <CAG8E47SkhmpAcvLvaotXsgrn1nRh24N7V22+3RC4OobipDQPtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG8E47R9N6c-XJFuDZVnQSwg5F5u2HvCae4KOWQGnSSbaBpDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47QaUdLr7RV=UGXZ5-n1CoQiQ0yQkt6_ATjoDDYp1Md_Bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47Q35zgHY+o7vYt35tcHnw7s=JZpk8WsqQOsgXqEGWFOTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47R03n5M3JU7NXH2tDWo9jh9QMj27Eg9qP1_mosBBFk_uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47SkhmpAcvLvaotXsgrn1nRh24N7V22+3RC4OobipDQPtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53CDC50D.4000602@msapiro.net>

On 07/21/2014 10:43 AM, Jimmy wrote:
> I just found where the postfix-to-mailman line came from:
> 
> http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Integrating+Mailman+with+postfix
> 
> And see that Mark specifically recommends not using this doc. I'm backing
> that config out.


Thanks for bringing that FAQ up. It is terribly misleading despite the
Warning I added in sec 4. I didn't write it, and I have now added a
stronger warning against following it at the top.

I see from other posts that you have things working now. I'm glad you
got it straightened out.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From chadrebuck at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 01:33:57 2014
From: chadrebuck at gmail.com (Chad Rebuck)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2014 19:33:57 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to access admin interface
Message-ID: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not able to access the admin interface.  I don't reach the page where I
can enter my admin password.  The mailman error log doesn't show anything.
 I'm running mailman 2.1.18-1.

This message appears:

Gateway Timeout

The gateway did not receive a timely response from the upstream server or
application.

From iva.vianello at crorec.hr  Mon Jul 21 21:27:43 2014
From: iva.vianello at crorec.hr (iva.vianello at crorec.hr)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 21:27:43 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need help with mailman bug
Message-ID: <3ad422a80cdbb631eb529f95e5a65545.squirrel@crorec.hr>

Hello,

I desperately need your help. We've been using Mailman newsletter lists
for over 4 years now and it always worked fantastic. This morning we've
moved to a different hosting / server and Mailman displays this bug:

---

Bug in Mailman version 2.1.18-1

We're sorry, we hit a bug!

Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of
traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited, but
the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs.

--

This message pops up in administration panel when I try to access the page
where I usually confirm to send out or delete newsletters.

Can you help me? I can't send any newsletters out.

Thanks, Iva


From mcgredo at nps.edu  Tue Jul 22 00:37:41 2014
From: mcgredo at nps.edu (McGregor, Donald (Don) (CIV))
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 22:37:41 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving Archive Lists
Message-ID: <3E8D8826-224A-4428-A99B-8D1E6BFCBB3F@nps.edu>

I had a server blow up on me. It?s dead, Jim, but I have backups of the /usr/local/mailman directory, and
I?m attempting to bring it up on a new box with a yum-supplied copy of mailman rather than the
old-fashioned hand install.

I?ve got the yum-supplied version configured, and can create new lists. But the old archive
lists, in the same directory with the same permissions, are not showing up. The yum-supplied
new mailman version is not the same as the version on the old server, and I can?t really bring
up the old server without some heroic measures.

Is there some pck database file I need to upgrade or massage to have the old lists
be recognized?

From g17jimmy at gmail.com  Tue Jul 22 04:27:48 2014
From: g17jimmy at gmail.com (Jimmy)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 22:27:48 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] postfix errors
In-Reply-To: <878unmp65t.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAG8E47R9N6c-XJFuDZVnQSwg5F5u2HvCae4KOWQGnSSbaBpDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47QaUdLr7RV=UGXZ5-n1CoQiQ0yQkt6_ATjoDDYp1Md_Bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47Q35zgHY+o7vYt35tcHnw7s=JZpk8WsqQOsgXqEGWFOTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG8E47R03n5M3JU7NXH2tDWo9jh9QMj27Eg9qP1_mosBBFk_uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <878unmp65t.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAG8E47S76ifU6A=TCG77F-JuDG+eDiro9YcURUast+Rgz9SSag@mail.gmail.com>

> > With open source software, 3rd party guides need to be treated with
> > care.

Very true, I stumbled upon the other instructions and got that mixed up
with what I was working on. I backed it all out and got it working now.
Thanks!


On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 8:51 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org>
wrote:

> Jimmy writes:
>
>  > I found that the file /usr/lib/mailman/bin/postfix-to-mailman.py does
> not
>  > exist on my system, postfix-to-mailman.py  isn't anywhere on my system
> at
>  > all, so that obviously presents a problem. Is that not normally in the
> RPM
>  > installation?
>
> That's right.  IIRC, postfix-to-mailman.py was developed by Bruce
> Perens and adopted by Debian because it fits their configuration
> management philosophy better.  AFAIK you'll find it on Debian and
> derivatives but not elsewhere.
>
>  > > I used the 'integrating mailman and postfix' guide but don't see
>  > > what I need to do to fix it.  Thanks
>
> With open source software, 3rd party guides need to be treated with
> care.
>

From cgtyoder at alum.mit.edu  Tue Jul 22 04:58:03 2014
From: cgtyoder at alum.mit.edu (Conrad G T Yoder)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 22:58:03 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Senders' email addresses not in archives
Message-ID: <A28FCEDB-33D2-4D3A-A73E-CEC004E54D8D@alum.mit.edu>

[Using 2.1.17]

I just realized that with the DMARC mitigation ?Mung From? option turned on, the senders? email addresses are not showing up in the archives.  So, basically impossible to contact them unless replying to the whole list, and/or the original sender put their address somewhere in the body of the message.  Is there a way to have their email addresses get into the archives and still have the Mung From option turned on?

-Conrad

--
Is there a suspect in your family? Contact the Ministry of Information. Ring  100 00 00.


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 22 05:25:29 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 20:25:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need help with mailman bug
In-Reply-To: <3ad422a80cdbb631eb529f95e5a65545.squirrel@crorec.hr>
References: <3ad422a80cdbb631eb529f95e5a65545.squirrel@crorec.hr>
Message-ID: <53CDD9A9.6000103@msapiro.net>

On 07/21/2014 12:27 PM, iva.vianello at crorec.hr wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I desperately need your help. We've been using Mailman newsletter lists
> for over 4 years now and it always worked fantastic. This morning we've
> moved to a different hosting / server and Mailman displays this bug:


See my comment in your bug report at
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1346468>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jul 22 05:29:18 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 12:29:18 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Chad Rebuck writes:

 > I'm not able to access the admin interface.  I don't reach the page
 > where I can enter my admin password.  The mailman error log doesn't
 > show anything.
 >  I'm running mailman 2.1.18-1.
 > 
 > This message appears:
 > 
 > Gateway Timeout
 > 
 > The gateway did not receive a timely response from the upstream server or
 > application.

This error doesn't indicate a Mailman problem, but rather a network or
webserver problem.  A timeout indicates that the gateway couldn't
contact the webserver at all (which is not part of Mailman, but a
completely separate package).  To check:

1.  Are you using the correct URL (including port; maybe your Mailman
    is configured to use https: rather than http: or something like
    that)?
2.  Is there a webserver running on the Mailman host?
3.  Is it listening to the port you're using (probably 80 = http, but
    possibly 443 = https or even something else)?
4.  Is there a firewall protecting port 80 (or 443 if you're using
    https: URLs) between your gateway (proxy server) and the Mailman
    host?
5.  If there is a webserver running, check that it it configured to
    provide CGI services (lack of CGI should not result in a network
    timeout, but rather a 404 No Such Page from the webserver, or
    perhaps a permission failure error -- but you never know).  Still,
    I'd bet on #2 or #3 here.

HTH

Steve


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 22 05:32:02 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 20:32:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Senders' email addresses not in archives
In-Reply-To: <A28FCEDB-33D2-4D3A-A73E-CEC004E54D8D@alum.mit.edu>
References: <A28FCEDB-33D2-4D3A-A73E-CEC004E54D8D@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <53CDDB32.5080109@msapiro.net>

On 07/21/2014 07:58 PM, Conrad G T Yoder wrote:
> [Using 2.1.17]
> 
> I just realized that with the DMARC mitigation ?Mung From? option turned on, the senders? email addresses are not showing up in the archives.  So, basically impossible to contact them unless replying to the whole list, and/or the original sender put their address somewhere in the body of the message.  Is there a way to have their email addresses get into the archives and still have the Mung From option turned on?


This is fixed in Mailman 2.1.18 (by not Munging the From: in archived
messages). While a fix could be backported to 2.1.17, it would probably
be easier to upgrade.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From cgtyoder at alum.mit.edu  Tue Jul 22 05:17:37 2014
From: cgtyoder at alum.mit.edu (Conrad G T Yoder)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 23:17:37 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo webmail stripping out headers in digests
Message-ID: <B4DB8C85-4A86-490B-A822-0C1CCB8137BE@alum.mit.edu>

Another episode in the ?Just Noticed? saga: In Yahoo?s webmail, they are stripping out the headers of each email in the digests, so that you can?t even tell where a new message starts in the digest, let alone who actually sent it.  Anyone had experience with this and know of a way to get all the individual headers shown again?

-Conrad

--
Truth is information.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jul 22 05:43:26 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 12:43:26 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Moving Archive Lists
In-Reply-To: <3E8D8826-224A-4428-A99B-8D1E6BFCBB3F@nps.edu>
References: <3E8D8826-224A-4428-A99B-8D1E6BFCBB3F@nps.edu>
Message-ID: <8738duoy75.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Don:

 > I?m attempting to bring it up on a new box with a yum-supplied copy
 > of mailman rather than the old-fashioned hand install.

Some systems put the configs and so on in a different place from the
"standard" mailman install.  I infer that you have the right place,
but please confirm.  On my Debian system, list configs look like

/var/lib/mailman/lists/LISTNAME/config.pck

and I've never seen a system that didn't conform to the
.../mailman/lists/LISTNAME/config.pck pattern.

 > The yum-supplied new mailman version is not the same as the version
 > on the old server,

How old was the old Mailman?  AFAIK old configs should automatically
be upgraded if necessary when you upgrade Mailman, unless they're very
very old (< 2.1.9 at a guess).

 > But the old archive lists, in the same directory with the same
 > permissions, are not showing up.

Please clarify what you mean by "old archive lists not showing up."
What's not showing up?  The list archives?  The public lists in the
mailman/listinfo page in the admin website?  It doesn't deliver posts
to those lists?  More than one of the above (please specify)?
Something else?

 > Is there some pck database file I need to upgrade or massage to
 > have the old lists be recognized?

No, Mailman 2.1 recognizes lists by the presence of a config.pck file
in the lists/<list-name> directory.  If you have the right place and
the version of Mailman that created the configs was not locally
modified and not decades old, it should recognize those configs.

HTH

Steve

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jul 22 05:53:43 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 12:53:43 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C3A3F@nuwvicms2>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net>
 <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
 <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>
 <6762DDC5-F1E8-4046-8937-2477CD8FD65C@nathanson.org>
 <8006A547-1CE8-4596-8204-8A55C821EA3A@nuw.org.au>
 <877g36p4z9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C3A3F@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <871tteoxq0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Peter Shute writes:

 > That was my impression too. It sounds less disruptive, but I wonder
 > if the resulting variability of behaviour of Reply and Reply all
 > would just cause confusion.

Well, I can get away with a policy of "Friends don't let friends use
Yahoo!" and be ornery about it, so take my advice with a grain of
salt.  But I just blame Yahoo! and tell yahoo.com users (other yahoo.*
domains don't have this policy) to lump it.

But you're right, people do report the difference.  So it depends on
how many users who prefer to post from Yahoo! you have.  (In my case,
most of my Yahoo! users say "I should have got rid of my Yahoo!
account long ago.)

N.B.  You're posting from edu.au.  Do you really have that many
yahoo.COM users that you care about a difference in their treatment?
If the majority of your Yahoo!/AOL users are from a different country,
they may very well *not* have "p=reject" policies.  Eg:

$ dig +short _dmarc.yahoo.com.au TXT
"v=DMARC1\; p=none\; pct=100\; rua=mailto:dmarc-yahoo-rua at yahoo-inc.com\;"

Note the "p=none".  Australian Yahoo! users don't have a reject policy
in place (yet).

Steve


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jul 22 06:14:42 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 13:14:42 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Senders' email addresses not in archives
In-Reply-To: <A28FCEDB-33D2-4D3A-A73E-CEC004E54D8D@alum.mit.edu>
References: <A28FCEDB-33D2-4D3A-A73E-CEC004E54D8D@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <87zjg2ni6l.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Conrad G T Yoder writes:

 > [Using 2.1.17]
 > 
 > Is there a way to have their email addresses get into the archives
 > and still have the Mung From option turned on?

It looks to me (version 2.1.18, though) like the from corruption is
performed in the CookHeaders Handler.  Perhaps you can move the
ToArchive Handler ahead of CookHeaders in the global pipeline (or list
by list if you prefer).  If I were you I'd wait for confirmation from
Mark that that's safe, though. :-)  It *should* be safe (since
subscriber delivery takes place after ToArchive, ToArchive must be
working on copies of the message and metadata or it would mess delivery
up), but I haven't audited the code.

To do this, GLOBAL_PIPELINE is a Python list, in Defaults.py.  Copy
the whole line to mm_cfg.py, and edit it to move the ToArchive (and
its trailing comma) ahead of CookHeaders.  The usual caveat about
"don't ever edit Defaults.py" applies here.

HTH

Steve

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Tue Jul 22 06:32:39 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 14:32:39 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <871tteoxq0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net>	<87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
 <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>
 <6762DDC5-F1E8-4046-8937-2477CD8FD65C@nathanson.org>
 <8006A547-1CE8-4596-8204-8A55C821EA3A@nuw.org.au>
 <877g36p4z9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C3A3F@nuwvicms2>
 <871tteoxq0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C3A4C@nuwvicms2>

Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>  > That was my impression too. It sounds less disruptive, but 
> I wonder  > if the resulting variability of behaviour of 
> Reply and Reply all  > would just cause confusion.
> 
> But you're right, people do report the difference.  So it 

It's the people who don't notice the difference that I'm worried about. If someone has been relying on the fact that clicking Reply will create a private reply, they're going to try it on a munged one and not notice. Then it'll be them defending themselves for whatever inappropriate remark they've accicentally sent to the list, not the Yahoo user. I can see myself getting caught out by it, it's hard to remember to look how it's set up.

I'm still all for rejecting and forwarding them by hand, with an explanatory note at the top. Then at least the private replies will only go to me. But we need 2.1.18-1 to help us detect them reliably.

> N.B.  You're posting from edu.au.  Do you really have that 
> many yahoo.COM users that you care about a difference in 
> their treatment?
> If the majority of your Yahoo!/AOL users are from a different 
> country, they may very well *not* have "p=reject" policies.  Eg:

I did recently realise they weren't all affected, but most of our yahoo users are on yahoo.com.

Peter Shute

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 22 07:12:38 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 22:12:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Senders' email addresses not in archives
In-Reply-To: <87zjg2ni6l.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <A28FCEDB-33D2-4D3A-A73E-CEC004E54D8D@alum.mit.edu>
 <87zjg2ni6l.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <53CDF2C6.8020600@msapiro.net>

On 07/21/2014 09:14 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Conrad G T Yoder writes:
> 
>  > [Using 2.1.17]
>  > 
>  > Is there a way to have their email addresses get into the archives
>  > and still have the Mung From option turned on?
> 
> It looks to me (version 2.1.18, though) like the from corruption is
> performed in the CookHeaders Handler.  Perhaps you can move the
> ToArchive Handler ahead of CookHeaders in the global pipeline (or list
> by list if you prefer).  If I were you I'd wait for confirmation from
> Mark that that's safe, though. :-)  It *should* be safe (since
> subscriber delivery takes place after ToArchive, ToArchive must be
> working on copies of the message and metadata or it would mess delivery
> up), but I haven't audited the code.


In 2.1.16 and 2.1.16, the message gets Munged in CookHeaders as Stephen
suggests. Thus it's the Munged message that gets archived and included
in digests and gated to Usenet.

Beginning in 2.1.18, CookHeaders still determines what to do with
headers like From: and Reply-To:, but they aren't actually changed
there. Essentially, CookHeaders tells WrapMessage what to do and
WrapMessage does it.


> To do this, GLOBAL_PIPELINE is a Python list, in Defaults.py.  Copy
> the whole line to mm_cfg.py, and edit it to move the ToArchive (and
> its trailing comma) ahead of CookHeaders.  The usual caveat about
> "don't ever edit Defaults.py" applies here.


That would work and is safe, but instead, I would move CookHeaders to a
place just after ToUsenet.

This can be done as Steve suggests by Copying the whole GLOBAL_PIPELINE
list to mm_cfg.py and editing it there, but this leads to problems if
GLOBAL_PIPELINE is changed in a subsequent release. A better way is to
put something like

GLOBAL_PIPELINE.remove('CookHeaders')
GLOBAL_PIPELINE.insert(GLOBAL_PIPELINE.index('AfterDelivery'),
'CookHeaders')

in mm_cfg.py. The first line removes CookHeaders from GLOBAL_PIPELINE.
The second line[1] inserts CookHeaders in GLOBAL_PIPELINE ahead of
AfterDelivery which is just after ToUsenet.

This way if GLOBAL_PIPELINE is changed in a subsequent release, the
changes in Defaults.py will be effective because mm_cfg.py is not
overriding the whole thing but just moving something.

[1] The second line is probably wrapped here, but it doesn't mater if it
is or not as Python ignores line breaks inside parens. I.e.,

(xxx\nyyy)

is the same as

(xxxyyy)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 22 07:20:54 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 22:20:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving Archive Lists
In-Reply-To: <8738duoy75.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <3E8D8826-224A-4428-A99B-8D1E6BFCBB3F@nps.edu>
 <8738duoy75.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <53CDF4B6.6000107@msapiro.net>

On 07/21/2014 08:43 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> 
> How old was the old Mailman?  AFAIK old configs should automatically
> be upgraded if necessary when you upgrade Mailman, unless they're very
> very old (< 2.1.9 at a guess).


Way older than that. Even config.db files from Mailman 2.0.x will be
properly converted/upgraded. There's even code in Mailman/versions.py,
which is what does the work, to address Mailman 1.0 lists, but I won't
guarantee it works on 1.0.x or the oldest 2.0.x config.db files but it
does the best it can to map things as closely as possible to their
current equivalents.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 22 07:54:22 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 22:54:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C3A3F@nuwvicms2>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net>	<87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
 <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>
 <6762DDC5-F1E8-4046-8937-2477CD8FD65C@nathanson.org>
 <8006A547-1CE8-4596-8204-8A55C821EA3A@nuw.org.au>
 <877g36p4z9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C3A3F@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <53CDFC8E.60809@msapiro.net>

On 07/21/2014 06:50 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
> 
> That was my impression too. It sounds less disruptive, but I wonder if the resulting variability of behaviour of Reply and Reply all would just cause confusion.


In 2.1.18-1, with minor exceptions, 'reply' and 'reply all' do the same
things on a munged message as on a non-munged message. The exceptions
are due to the fact that in 2.1.18-1 the Munge From action always puts
the original From: in Reply-To: so the original From: is always
somewhere. The implication of this is that with list settings
first_strip_reply_to = Yes and reply_goes_to_list = This List, in the
unmunged case, reply goes only to the list and in the munged case, it
goes to the list and the original From: which may mean the original
From: gets a dupe or only a direct and not a list copy.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From pshute at nuw.org.au  Tue Jul 22 10:45:52 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 18:45:52 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
In-Reply-To: <53CDFC8E.60809@msapiro.net>
References: <61377823-4AF4-406C-81F8-6BC9E3D5F240@nuw.org.au>
 <0bc710f0-57df-4ad4-bbad-ba9ee80cdcc1@email.android.com>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39A2@nuwvicms2>
 <53C48A1E.8020802@att.net> <87lhrv2kxq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C39EA@nuwvicms2>
 <53C87661.3080909@msapiro.net>
 <CAEUd7=6_v4qTgttXz2ac0NtSZcCheUM=ywKxLhK2ubxXOXExhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1B9BECA9-0F0D-4FA3-8503-3B7843AA2E1E@nathanson.org>
 <E2746FB1-0772-456A-BD58-09E251438FE3@nuw.org.au>
 <6762DDC5-F1E8-4046-8937-2477CD8FD65C@nathanson.org>
 <8006A547-1CE8-4596-8204-8A55C821EA3A@nuw.org.au>
 <877g36p4z9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C3A3F@nuwvicms2>
 <53CDFC8E.60809@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1874665E-28F0-4AC1-8328-811BCD75A7C7@nuw.org.au>

I'm glad to hear that, although I think I'll have to try it to get my head around it.

Peter Shute

Sent from my iPad

> On 22 Jul 2014, at 3:54 pm, "Mark Sapiro" <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 07/21/2014 06:50 PM, Peter Shute wrote:
>> 
>> That was my impression too. It sounds less disruptive, but I wonder if the resulting variability of behaviour of Reply and Reply all would just cause confusion.
> 
> 
> In 2.1.18-1, with minor exceptions, 'reply' and 'reply all' do the same
> things on a munged message as on a non-munged message. The exceptions
> are due to the fact that in 2.1.18-1 the Munge From action always puts
> the original From: in Reply-To: so the original From: is always
> somewhere. The implication of this is that with list settings
> first_strip_reply_to = Yes and reply_goes_to_list = This List, in the
> unmunged case, reply goes only to the list and in the munged case, it
> goes to the list and the original From: which may mean the original
> From: gets a dupe or only a direct and not a list copy.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pshute%40nuw.org.au

From cgtyoder at alum.mit.edu  Tue Jul 22 16:01:54 2014
From: cgtyoder at alum.mit.edu (Conrad G T Yoder)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 10:01:54 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Senders' email addresses not in archives
In-Reply-To: <87zjg2ni6l.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <A28FCEDB-33D2-4D3A-A73E-CEC004E54D8D@alum.mit.edu>
 <87zjg2ni6l.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <E072D37E-4640-4E9F-8E02-9C43A260B84A@alum.mit.edu>

On Jul 22, 2014, at 12:14 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:

> Conrad G T Yoder writes:
> 
>> [Using 2.1.17]
>> 
>> Is there a way to have their email addresses get into the archives
>> and still have the Mung From option turned on?
> 
> It looks to me (version 2.1.18, though) like the from corruption is
> performed in the CookHeaders Handler.  Perhaps you can move the
> ToArchive Handler ahead of CookHeaders in the global pipeline (or list
> by list if you prefer).  If I were you I'd wait for confirmation from
> Mark that that's safe, though. :-)  It *should* be safe (since
> subscriber delivery takes place after ToArchive, ToArchive must be
> working on copies of the message and metadata or it would mess delivery
> up), but I haven't audited the code.
> 
> To do this, GLOBAL_PIPELINE is a Python list, in Defaults.py.  Copy
> the whole line to mm_cfg.py, and edit it to move the ToArchive (and
> its trailing comma) ahead of CookHeaders.  The usual caveat about
> "don't ever edit Defaults.py" applies here.

I don?t have access to all this - my MM install is hosted (not by me).  So I?ll have to put in an upgrade request.

-Conrad

--
Trust in Security.


From mcgredo at nps.edu  Tue Jul 22 20:09:06 2014
From: mcgredo at nps.edu (McGregor, Donald (Don) (CIV))
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 18:09:06 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving Archive Lists
In-Reply-To: <53CDF4B6.6000107@msapiro.net>
References: <3E8D8826-224A-4428-A99B-8D1E6BFCBB3F@nps.edu>
 <8738duoy75.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <53CDF4B6.6000107@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <6FBA9A4D-E4A5-47A5-AE5B-DC95ECF48874@nps.edu>

> Some systems put the configs and so on in a different place from the
> "standard" mailman install.  I infer that you have the right place,
> but please confirm.  On my Debian system, list configs look like
> 
> /var/lib/mailman/lists/LISTNAME/config.pck
> 
> and I've never seen a system that didn't conform to the
> .../mailman/lists/LISTNAME/config.pck pattern.

The old version was 2.12 rc2, so it?s not that old.

list_lists does not pick up the old, archived lists, but does find any
new lists created on the new host. Comparing the 
contents of a list from the old server to one created on the new
server:

// contents of list directory from old, crashed host for the list oldList:

[root lists]# ls -lR oldList
oldList:
total 8
drwxrwsr-x 2 root mailman 4096 May 29 14:10 en
-rw-rw-r-- 1 root mailman   24 May 29 14:10 request.pck

oldList/en:
total 8
-rw-r--r-- 1 root mailman 5582 May 29 14:10 listinfo.html

// Contents of directory for list, wocka17, created on the new host

[root lists]# ls -lR wocka17
wocka17:
total 12
-rw-rw---- 1 mailman mailman 3714 Jul 22 09:00 config.pck
-rw-rw---- 1 root    mailman 3714 Jul 21 12:05 config.pck.last
-rw-rw-r-- 1 root    mailman   24 Jul 21 12:05 request.pck

So it looks like I?m missing the config.pck files on the lists
from the old host. Did I get a bad backup?  The disks eventually
blew up on the old host so that?s plausible. 

Is there a way to re-generate the config.pck files? And where
is the list of subscribers for each list kept?


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 22 20:17:24 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 11:17:24 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving Archive Lists
In-Reply-To: <6FBA9A4D-E4A5-47A5-AE5B-DC95ECF48874@nps.edu>
References: <3E8D8826-224A-4428-A99B-8D1E6BFCBB3F@nps.edu>
 <8738duoy75.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <53CDF4B6.6000107@msapiro.net>
 <6FBA9A4D-E4A5-47A5-AE5B-DC95ECF48874@nps.edu>
Message-ID: <53CEAAB4.4080607@msapiro.net>

On 07/22/2014 11:09 AM, McGregor, Donald (Don) (CIV) wrote:
> 
> So it looks like I?m missing the config.pck files on the lists
> from the old host. Did I get a bad backup?  The disks eventually
> blew up on the old host so that?s plausible. 


If the config.pck files are missing from your backups, your backups are
incomplete.


> Is there a way to re-generate the config.pck files? And where
> is the list of subscribers for each list kept?


Unless you have a custom MemberAdaptor, the list membership is in the
config.pck along with all the list attributes. The only way to
re-generate it is to create the list, configure it and add the members.
There's nowhere else that the information is kept.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From chadrebuck at gmail.com  Tue Jul 22 22:16:42 2014
From: chadrebuck at gmail.com (Chad Rebuck)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 16:16:42 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>

thanks for the help

1.  yes, I am able to access the list info page fine, then I click on the
admin interface from that page.  All the pages are http, not https from
what I see.
2. yes
3. yes, I can access other pages on the same server using the same domain
name even when the admin page is not responding.
4. yes, there is a firewall on my router that forwards all port 80 traffic
to the web server
5. I'll have to check on this one.  Will see how to test this, but since i
can get into the admin page and the list info page, etc. does this mean it
must be working?

The display of the admin pages works at times, but then gets stuck and
provides a 504 gateway timeout after choosing a few of the admin page
options.  I can't make any sense of why it stops working.


On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 11:29 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org>
wrote:

> Chad Rebuck writes:
>
>  > I'm not able to access the admin interface.  I don't reach the page
>  > where I can enter my admin password.  The mailman error log doesn't
>  > show anything.
>  >  I'm running mailman 2.1.18-1.
>  >
>  > This message appears:
>  >
>  > Gateway Timeout
>  >
>  > The gateway did not receive a timely response from the upstream server
> or
>  > application.
>
> This error doesn't indicate a Mailman problem, but rather a network or
> webserver problem.  A timeout indicates that the gateway couldn't
> contact the webserver at all (which is not part of Mailman, but a
> completely separate package).  To check:
>
> 1.  Are you using the correct URL (including port; maybe your Mailman
>     is configured to use https: rather than http: or something like
>     that)?
> 2.  Is there a webserver running on the Mailman host?
> 3.  Is it listening to the port you're using (probably 80 = http, but
>     possibly 443 = https or even something else)?
> 4.  Is there a firewall protecting port 80 (or 443 if you're using
>     https: URLs) between your gateway (proxy server) and the Mailman
>     host?
> 5.  If there is a webserver running, check that it it configured to
>     provide CGI services (lack of CGI should not result in a network
>     timeout, but rather a 404 No Such Page from the webserver, or
>     perhaps a permission failure error -- but you never know).  Still,
>     I'd bet on #2 or #3 here.
>
> HTH
>
> Steve
>
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 22 22:39:33 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 13:39:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>

On 07/22/2014 01:16 PM, Chad Rebuck wrote:
> thanks for the help
> 
> 1.  yes, I am able to access the list info page fine, then I click on the
> admin interface from that page.  All the pages are http, not https from
> what I see.


What is the exact URL of the listinfo page you are accessing and the
admin page you can't access? In particular, are they identical except
for 'listinfo' <-> 'admin'.

What if anything is in the the web server's access and error logs for
these failed attempts?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From chadrebuck at gmail.com  Tue Jul 22 22:52:56 2014
From: chadrebuck at gmail.com (Chad Rebuck)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 16:52:56 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CA+V5SC-KA34pTdbKDBY9Kz00XpOPRpG+uKpVpZAdC=eOZiPGOw@mail.gmail.com>

http://mail.a2-16v.com/mailman/listinfo/a2-16v-list

http://mail.a2-16v.com/mailman/admin/a2-16v-list

web access
144.160.5.25 - - [22/Jul/2014:16:38:40 -0400] "GET
/mailman/admin/a2-16v-list HTTP/1.1" 504 247

web error
[Tue Jul 22 16:40:40.374934 2014] [cgi:warn] [pid 187:tid 1098904624]
[client 144.160.5.25:13341] AH01220: Timeout waiting for output from CGI
script /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/admin, referer:
http://mail.a2-16v.com/mailman/listinfo/a2-16v-list




On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 07/22/2014 01:16 PM, Chad Rebuck wrote:
> > thanks for the help
> >
> > 1.  yes, I am able to access the list info page fine, then I click on the
> > admin interface from that page.  All the pages are http, not https from
> > what I see.
>
>
> What is the exact URL of the listinfo page you are accessing and the
> admin page you can't access? In particular, are they identical except
> for 'listinfo' <-> 'admin'.
>
> What if anything is in the the web server's access and error logs for
> these failed attempts?
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/chadrebuck%40gmail.com
>

From mcgredo at nps.edu  Tue Jul 22 23:03:21 2014
From: mcgredo at nps.edu (McGregor, Donald (Don) (CIV))
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 21:03:21 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving Archive Lists
In-Reply-To: <53CEAAB4.4080607@msapiro.net>
References: <3E8D8826-224A-4428-A99B-8D1E6BFCBB3F@nps.edu>
 <8738duoy75.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <53CDF4B6.6000107@msapiro.net>
 <6FBA9A4D-E4A5-47A5-AE5B-DC95ECF48874@nps.edu> <53CEAAB4.4080607@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <AB99348C-F114-4C30-81FC-AF3AA6C028EB@nps.edu>

?And, that was it. Reverting to an earlier backup that got the whole
thing solved the problem.


On Jul 22, 2014, at 11:17 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 07/22/2014 11:09 AM, McGregor, Donald (Don) (CIV) wrote:
>> 
>> So it looks like I?m missing the config.pck files on the lists
>> from the old host. Did I get a bad backup?  The disks eventually
>> blew up on the old host so that?s plausible. 
> 
> 
> If the config.pck files are missing from your backups, your backups are
> incomplete.
> 
> 
>> Is there a way to re-generate the config.pck files? And where
>> is the list of subscribers for each list kept?
> 
> 
> Unless you have a custom MemberAdaptor, the list membership is in the
> config.pck along with all the list attributes. The only way to
> re-generate it is to create the list, configure it and add the members.
> There's nowhere else that the information is kept.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/mcgredo%40nps.edu


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 22 23:11:47 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 14:11:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] {Disarmed} Re: unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <CA+V5SC8ht6gfd_PG+uPo3KR=ozWEpirEfYFvDXS1DDHLBggqAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>	<874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>	<53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC-KA34pTdbKDBY9Kz00XpOPRpG+uKpVpZAdC=eOZiPGOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+V5SC8ht6gfd_PG+uPo3KR=ozWEpirEfYFvDXS1DDHLBggqAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53CED393.9020601@msapiro.net>

On 07/22/2014 01:56 PM, Chad Rebuck wrote:
> I see a related email from a google seach where you pointed someone to
> the lock files directory.  I suppose this isn't normal?  Too many lock
> files?
> 
> [root at pogo locks]# pwd
> /var/lib/mailman/locks
> [root at pogo locks]# ll
> total 100K
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 18:10 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.19620.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20307.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20309.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20311.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20312.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20313.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20316.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20323.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20351.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20519.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20598.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 22:38 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20648.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 22:40 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20663.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 22:44 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20674.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 22:48 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20699.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 22:57 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20827.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 23:16 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20980.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 23:19 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20989.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 23:54 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.21944.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 50 Jul 21 00:16 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.406.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 50 Jul 21 00:20 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.435.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 50 Jul 21 00:31 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.484.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 23  2014 master-qrunner
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 23  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341


There is definitely a locking issue. It's not that there are too many
per se, it's that the list is locked by a defunct process and the lock
will never be relinquished.

If you

cat /var/lib/mailman/locks/a2-16v-list.lock

the contents will be the file name of the active lock. Judging from the
link count, it's this one

-rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20307.0



do 'ps -fww 20307' or whatever the PID of the active lock is. If that
PID doesn't exist, do

rm /var/lib/mailman/locks/a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.19620.0

and wait a few seconds. If all the locks don't clear, repeat until they do.

If a PID with the lock does exist, ps -fww will show what it is which
may help identfy why it is hung with the list locked.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From chadrebuck at gmail.com  Tue Jul 22 23:20:58 2014
From: chadrebuck at gmail.com (Chad Rebuck)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 17:20:58 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] {Disarmed} Re: unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <53CED393.9020601@msapiro.net>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-KA34pTdbKDBY9Kz00XpOPRpG+uKpVpZAdC=eOZiPGOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+V5SC8ht6gfd_PG+uPo3KR=ozWEpirEfYFvDXS1DDHLBggqAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CED393.9020601@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CA+V5SC-H4xe1AHYSNbW3sV4JZ9LZ5Gjob+wd1Mb2ekK-u+qYPw@mail.gmail.com>

Should I delete each lock in order from oldest to newest, excluding the
active lock (20307)?  I've deleted a few and waited a few minutes between
each delete and saw no locks auto disappear yet.

Would I delete a2-16v-list.lock is I make it down the list that far should
I leave it alone?

[root at pogo locks]# ls -lsrt
total 92
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 22:38 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20648.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 22:40 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20663.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 22:44 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20674.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 22:48 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20699.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 22:57 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20827.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 23:16 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20980.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 23:19 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20989.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 23:54 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.21944.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 50 Jul 21 00:16 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.406.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 50 Jul 21 00:20 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.435.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 50 Jul 21 00:31 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.484.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20307.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20311.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20312.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20313.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20316.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20323.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20351.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20519.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20598.0
4 -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 23  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341
4 -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 23  2014 master-qrunner
[root at pogo locks]#


On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 07/22/2014 01:56 PM, Chad Rebuck wrote:
> > I see a related email from a google seach where you pointed someone to
> > the lock files directory.  I suppose this isn't normal?  Too many lock
> > files?
> >
> > [root at pogo locks]# pwd
> > /var/lib/mailman/locks
> > [root at pogo locks]# ll
> > total 100K
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 18:10
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.19620.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20307.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20309.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20311.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20312.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20313.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20316.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20323.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20351.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20519.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20598.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 22:38
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20648.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 22:40
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20663.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 22:44
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20674.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 22:48
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20699.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 22:57
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20827.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 23:16
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20980.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 23:19
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20989.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 20 23:54
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.21944.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 50 Jul 21 00:16 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.406.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 50 Jul 21 00:20 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.435.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 50 Jul 21 00:31 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.484.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 23  2014 master-qrunner
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 23  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341
>
>
> There is definitely a locking issue. It's not that there are too many
> per se, it's that the list is locked by a defunct process and the lock
> will never be relinquished.
>
> If you
>
> cat /var/lib/mailman/locks/a2-16v-list.lock
>
> the contents will be the file name of the active lock. Judging from the
> link count, it's this one
>
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 22  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.20307.0
>
>
>
> do 'ps -fww 20307' or whatever the PID of the active lock is. If that
> PID doesn't exist, do
>
> rm /var/lib/mailman/locks/a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.19620.0
>
> and wait a few seconds. If all the locks don't clear, repeat until they do.
>
> If a PID with the lock does exist, ps -fww will show what it is which
> may help identfy why it is hung with the list locked.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 22 23:29:50 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 14:29:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] {Disarmed} Re: unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <CA+V5SC-H4xe1AHYSNbW3sV4JZ9LZ5Gjob+wd1Mb2ekK-u+qYPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>	<874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>	<53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC-KA34pTdbKDBY9Kz00XpOPRpG+uKpVpZAdC=eOZiPGOw@mail.gmail.com>	<CA+V5SC8ht6gfd_PG+uPo3KR=ozWEpirEfYFvDXS1DDHLBggqAg@mail.gmail.com>	<53CED393.9020601@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-H4xe1AHYSNbW3sV4JZ9LZ5Gjob+wd1Mb2ekK-u+qYPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53CED7CE.20700@msapiro.net>

On 07/22/2014 02:20 PM, Chad Rebuck wrote:
> Should I delete each lock in order from oldest to newest, excluding the
> active lock (20307)?  I've deleted a few and waited a few minutes
> between each delete and saw no locks auto disappear yet.


You can go through the whole list looking for non-existent PIDs and
delete all those, or you can delete just the active lock as that is the
one preventing the others from proceeding.

I.e., delete the active lock (assuming its PID is gone) and some waiting
processes may proceed. In any case, a new lock will become active.
Repeat that until no locks remain.


> Would I delete a2-16v-list.lock is I make it down the list that far
> should I leave it alone?

If at some point you are left with only the a2-16v-list.lock and no
a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.PID.* files, you can just remove a2-16v-list.lock,
or I think if you don't, it will be automatically removed the next time
a process locks and unlocks the a2-16v-list list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dave at fiteyes.com  Wed Jul 23 00:38:32 2014
From: dave at fiteyes.com (David)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 18:38:32 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Approve/Deny moderated posts via email - my failure
	to understand how
Message-ID: <CAH=dxU7sU_0pux8Fxy_jTpCZOffSFL--ChoMCQXz0gNYrkanHw@mail.gmail.com>

I have the same question as here:

Re: [Mailman-Users] Approve/Deny moderated posts via email - my failure to
understand how
https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/msg64564.html

After reading Mark's reply, I understand a little more, but I still do not
have success. The message I receive back is:

*Bad approval password given.  Held message is still being held.*


What is the list password that is required? I have tried the list admin
password and the list moderators password. Either those are not the
required password or I am putting them in the wrong location in the message.

Appreciate any help. Thanks.

Regards,
David

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 23 01:26:17 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 16:26:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Approve/Deny moderated posts via email - my
 failure to understand how
In-Reply-To: <CAH=dxU7sU_0pux8Fxy_jTpCZOffSFL--ChoMCQXz0gNYrkanHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=dxU7sU_0pux8Fxy_jTpCZOffSFL--ChoMCQXz0gNYrkanHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53CEF319.10409@msapiro.net>

On 07/22/2014 03:38 PM, David wrote:
> 
> After reading Mark's reply, I understand a little more, but I still do not
> have success. The message I receive back is:
> 
> *Bad approval password given.  Held message is still being held.*
> 
> 
> What is the list password that is required? I have tried the list admin
> password and the list moderators password. Either those are not the
> required password or I am putting them in the wrong location in the message.


The password is either the list admin password or the list moderator
password.

The fact that you get the "Bad approval password" response indicates you
have included the Approved: header or first body line, but the password
doesn't match the list admin password or the list moderator password.
The header/line should be exactly

Approved: password

where password is the list admin or moderator password. If that's what
you're sending without any quotes or <> around the password, it is
possible that you are composing a 'rich text' reply and your MUA is
creating a text/plain alternative which has somehow munged the Approved:
line.

You can check this by including yourself in a Bcc: on the reply and then
examining the raw source of the Bcc: message.

Note that if you sent an HTML only message, The Approved: line wouldn't
be seen at all because only the first text/plain part if any is examined.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From chadrebuck at gmail.com  Wed Jul 23 04:10:00 2014
From: chadrebuck at gmail.com (Chad Rebuck)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 22:10:00 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] {Disarmed} Re: unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <53CED7CE.20700@msapiro.net>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-KA34pTdbKDBY9Kz00XpOPRpG+uKpVpZAdC=eOZiPGOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+V5SC8ht6gfd_PG+uPo3KR=ozWEpirEfYFvDXS1DDHLBggqAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CED393.9020601@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-H4xe1AHYSNbW3sV4JZ9LZ5Gjob+wd1Mb2ekK-u+qYPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CED7CE.20700@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CA+V5SC86TAURyjEqjL2Rg_eZAn1eTXnQJAYft44M1smfGbFUQg@mail.gmail.com>

All the lock files have been deleted as I found no process running for any
of them.  However, the problem still occurs.  What should I attempt next?

Thanks.




On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 5:29 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 07/22/2014 02:20 PM, Chad Rebuck wrote:
> > Should I delete each lock in order from oldest to newest, excluding the
> > active lock (20307)?  I've deleted a few and waited a few minutes
> > between each delete and saw no locks auto disappear yet.
>
>
> You can go through the whole list looking for non-existent PIDs and
> delete all those, or you can delete just the active lock as that is the
> one preventing the others from proceeding.
>
> I.e., delete the active lock (assuming its PID is gone) and some waiting
> processes may proceed. In any case, a new lock will become active.
> Repeat that until no locks remain.
>
>
> > Would I delete a2-16v-list.lock is I make it down the list that far
> > should I leave it alone?
>
> If at some point you are left with only the a2-16v-list.lock and no
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.PID.* files, you can just remove a2-16v-list.lock,
> or I think if you don't, it will be automatically removed the next time
> a process locks and unlocks the a2-16v-list list.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 23 04:14:49 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 19:14:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] {Disarmed} Re: unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <CA+V5SC86TAURyjEqjL2Rg_eZAn1eTXnQJAYft44M1smfGbFUQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>	<874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>	<53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC-KA34pTdbKDBY9Kz00XpOPRpG+uKpVpZAdC=eOZiPGOw@mail.gmail.com>	<CA+V5SC8ht6gfd_PG+uPo3KR=ozWEpirEfYFvDXS1DDHLBggqAg@mail.gmail.com>	<53CED393.9020601@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC-H4xe1AHYSNbW3sV4JZ9LZ5Gjob+wd1Mb2ekK-u+qYPw@mail.gmail.com>	<53CED7CE.20700@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC86TAURyjEqjL2Rg_eZAn1eTXnQJAYft44M1smfGbFUQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53CF1A99.3090700@msapiro.net>

On 07/22/2014 07:10 PM, Chad Rebuck wrote:
> All the lock files have been deleted as I found no process running for
> any of them.  However, the problem still occurs.  What should I attempt
> next?


What is the content of the /var/lib/mailman/locks/ directory now?

Did you remove the a2-16v-list.lock file? If not, you probably need to.

Is the message in the web server error log the same as before?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From chadrebuck at gmail.com  Wed Jul 23 04:25:58 2014
From: chadrebuck at gmail.com (Chad Rebuck)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 22:25:58 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] {Disarmed} Re: unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <53CF1A99.3090700@msapiro.net>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-KA34pTdbKDBY9Kz00XpOPRpG+uKpVpZAdC=eOZiPGOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+V5SC8ht6gfd_PG+uPo3KR=ozWEpirEfYFvDXS1DDHLBggqAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CED393.9020601@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-H4xe1AHYSNbW3sV4JZ9LZ5Gjob+wd1Mb2ekK-u+qYPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CED7CE.20700@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC86TAURyjEqjL2Rg_eZAn1eTXnQJAYft44M1smfGbFUQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CF1A99.3090700@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CA+V5SC_Jy1fScUMV_mA=Hk8ZnvVFsuiQRSxzPBF75Bxx6cpEbQ@mail.gmail.com>

I didn't remove it until now, but I saw it seemed to update itself when I
tried to access the admin page.

[root at pogo locks]# ll
total 16K
-rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
-rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.21765.0
-rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
-rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341

[root at pogo locks]# rm -rf a2-16v-list.lock*

[root at pogo locks]# ll
total 8.0K
-rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
-rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341


I was then able to access the admin page, but when I clicked on "tend to
pending requests" I got the 504 error after a couple minutes

[root at pogo locks]# tail -2 /var/log/httpd/error_log
[Tue Jul 22 22:22:30.721677 2014] [cgi:error] [pid 378:tid 1143579696]
[client 144.160.5.25:34507] Script timed out before returning headers:
admindb, referer: http://mail.a2-16v.com/mailman/admin/a2-16v-list
[Tue Jul 22 22:23:30.781402 2014] [cgi:warn] [pid 378:tid 1143579696]
[client 144.160.5.25:34507] AH01220: Timeout waiting for output from CGI
script /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/admindb, referer:
http://mail.a2-16v.com/mailman/admin/a2-16v-list
[root at pogo locks]# tail -2 /var/log/httpd/access_log
144.160.5.25 - - [22/Jul/2014:22:21:14 -0400] "GET
/mailman/admin/a2-16v-list HTTP/1.1" 200 20748
144.160.5.25 - - [22/Jul/2014:22:21:30 -0400] "GET
/mailman/admindb/a2-16v-list HTTP/1.1" 504 247

now the lock folder is as follows

[root at pogo locks]# ll
total 16K
-rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
-rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.21828.0
-rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
-rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341
[root at pogo locks]#


On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 10:14 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 07/22/2014 07:10 PM, Chad Rebuck wrote:
> > All the lock files have been deleted as I found no process running for
> > any of them.  However, the problem still occurs.  What should I attempt
> > next?
>
>
> What is the content of the /var/lib/mailman/locks/ directory now?
>
> Did you remove the a2-16v-list.lock file? If not, you probably need to.
>
> Is the message in the web server error log the same as before?
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 23 06:00:24 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 21:00:24 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <CA+V5SC_Jy1fScUMV_mA=Hk8ZnvVFsuiQRSxzPBF75Bxx6cpEbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>	<874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>	<53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC-KA34pTdbKDBY9Kz00XpOPRpG+uKpVpZAdC=eOZiPGOw@mail.gmail.com>	<CA+V5SC8ht6gfd_PG+uPo3KR=ozWEpirEfYFvDXS1DDHLBggqAg@mail.gmail.com>	<53CED393.9020601@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC-H4xe1AHYSNbW3sV4JZ9LZ5Gjob+wd1Mb2ekK-u+qYPw@mail.gmail.com>	<53CED7CE.20700@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC86TAURyjEqjL2Rg_eZAn1eTXnQJAYft44M1smfGbFUQg@mail.gmail.com>	<53CF1A99.3090700@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC_Jy1fScUMV_mA=Hk8ZnvVFsuiQRSxzPBF75Bxx6cpEbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53CF3358.4010907@msapiro.net>

On 07/22/2014 07:25 PM, Chad Rebuck wrote:
> I didn't remove it until now, but I saw it seemed to update itself when I
> tried to access the admin page.
> 
> [root at pogo locks]# ll
> total 16K
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.21765.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341
> 
> [root at pogo locks]# rm -rf a2-16v-list.lock*
> 
> [root at pogo locks]# ll
> total 8.0K
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341
> 
> 
> I was then able to access the admin page, but when I clicked on "tend to
> pending requests" I got the 504 error after a couple minutes
> 
> [root at pogo locks]# tail -2 /var/log/httpd/error_log
> [Tue Jul 22 22:22:30.721677 2014] [cgi:error] [pid 378:tid 1143579696]
> [client 144.160.5.25:34507] Script timed out before returning headers:
> admindb, referer: http://mail.a2-16v.com/mailman/admin/a2-16v-list
> [Tue Jul 22 22:23:30.781402 2014] [cgi:warn] [pid 378:tid 1143579696]
> [client 144.160.5.25:34507] AH01220: Timeout waiting for output from CGI
> script /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/admindb, referer:
> http://mail.a2-16v.com/mailman/admin/a2-16v-list
> [root at pogo locks]# tail -2 /var/log/httpd/access_log
> 144.160.5.25 - - [22/Jul/2014:22:21:14 -0400] "GET
> /mailman/admin/a2-16v-list HTTP/1.1" 200 20748
> 144.160.5.25 - - [22/Jul/2014:22:21:30 -0400] "GET
> /mailman/admindb/a2-16v-list HTTP/1.1" 504 247
> 
> now the lock folder is as follows
> 
> [root at pogo locks]# ll
> total 16K
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.21828.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341
> [root at pogo locks]#


So PID 21828 has the list lock. It looks like the admindb CGI, PID 378
timed out, presumably because it couldn't get the lock, but its request
would be a file named a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.378.0, and that doesn't seem
to be there.

What if anything is in Mailman's 'error' log and 'locks' log?

Locking may be the underlying issue, but it's not just stale locks
because even after they're cleared, you still have issues.

How did you install 2.1.18-1?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mlnospam at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 23 13:58:33 2014
From: mlnospam at yahoo.com (ML mail)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 04:58:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best method to interface Mailman3 from custom web
	application
Message-ID: <1406116713.43273.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hello,

I have built a simple mail control panel in PHP where I would like to be able to create new mailing lists, subscribe/unsubscribe members, etc. Now I was wondering what would be the best method for my control panel to do that? I am aware of the following methods:

- using SQL to directly speak with mailman3 database
- using the REST API

What would you recommend and are there any other alternatives?

Regards
ML

From chadrebuck at gmail.com  Wed Jul 23 15:54:44 2014
From: chadrebuck at gmail.com (Chad Rebuck)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 09:54:44 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <53CF3358.4010907@msapiro.net>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-KA34pTdbKDBY9Kz00XpOPRpG+uKpVpZAdC=eOZiPGOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+V5SC8ht6gfd_PG+uPo3KR=ozWEpirEfYFvDXS1DDHLBggqAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CED393.9020601@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-H4xe1AHYSNbW3sV4JZ9LZ5Gjob+wd1Mb2ekK-u+qYPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CED7CE.20700@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC86TAURyjEqjL2Rg_eZAn1eTXnQJAYft44M1smfGbFUQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CF1A99.3090700@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC_Jy1fScUMV_mA=Hk8ZnvVFsuiQRSxzPBF75Bxx6cpEbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CF3358.4010907@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CA+V5SC-VqCxFC3EL+mApg5YFbtNfQ2iZ-g-goDxDRtkCv9-HGQ@mail.gmail.com>

I installed it with a package on my arch system using

pacman -Syu

[root at pogo chadr]# ll /var/lib/mailman/locks/
total 16K
-rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23 03:52 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.22018.0
-rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23 04:45 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.22205.0
-rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
-rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341

Then I tried to access

http://mail.a2-16v.com/mailman/admindb/a2-16v-list and waited for the 504
error to appear in the browser


[root at pogo chadr]# ll /var/lib/mailman/locks/
total 24K
-rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
-rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23 03:52 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.22018.0
-rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23 04:45 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.22205.0
-rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.25275.0
-rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
-rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341

No recent updates to the locks or error log

[root at pogo chadr]# tail /var/lib/mailman/logs/locks
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File
"/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)     keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg,
msgdata)
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File
"/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 115, in _dispose
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)
mlist.Lock(timeout=mm_cfg.LIST_LOCK_TIMEOUT)
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py",
line 161, in Lock
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)     self.__lock.lock(timeout)
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py",
line 306, in lock
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)     important=True)
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py",
line 416, in __writelog
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)     traceback.print_stack(file=logf)

[root at pogo chadr]# tail /var/lib/mailman/logs/error
Jun 20 06:32:44 2014 mailmanctl(382):      lock = acquire_lock_1(force)
Jun 20 06:32:44 2014 mailmanctl(382):   File
"/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl", line 203, in acquire_lock_1
Jun 20 06:32:44 2014 mailmanctl(382):      if not force or qrunner_state():
Jun 20 06:32:44 2014 mailmanctl(382):   File
"/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl", line 187, in qrunner_state
Jun 20 06:32:44 2014 mailmanctl(382):      os.kill(pid, 0)
Jun 20 06:32:44 2014 mailmanctl(382): OSError :  [Errno 1] Operation not
permitted
Jun 21 01:24:28 2014 (3941) No such list "a2-16v-list<":
Jul 20 17:47:52 2014 mailmanctl(20690): The master qrunner lock could not
be acquired because it appears as if another
master qrunner is already running.
Jul 20 17:47:52 2014 mailmanctl(20690):

[root at pogo chadr]# date
Wed Jul 23 09:51:56 EDT 2014



On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 12:00 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 07/22/2014 07:25 PM, Chad Rebuck wrote:
> > I didn't remove it until now, but I saw it seemed to update itself when I
> > tried to access the admin page.
> >
> > [root at pogo locks]# ll
> > total 16K
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.21765.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341
> >
> > [root at pogo locks]# rm -rf a2-16v-list.lock*
> >
> > [root at pogo locks]# ll
> > total 8.0K
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341
> >
> >
> > I was then able to access the admin page, but when I clicked on "tend to
> > pending requests" I got the 504 error after a couple minutes
> >
> > [root at pogo locks]# tail -2 /var/log/httpd/error_log
> > [Tue Jul 22 22:22:30.721677 2014] [cgi:error] [pid 378:tid 1143579696]
> > [client 144.160.5.25:34507] Script timed out before returning headers:
> > admindb, referer: http://mail.a2-16v.com/mailman/admin/a2-16v-list
> > [Tue Jul 22 22:23:30.781402 2014] [cgi:warn] [pid 378:tid 1143579696]
> > [client 144.160.5.25:34507] AH01220: Timeout waiting for output from CGI
> > script /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/admindb, referer:
> > http://mail.a2-16v.com/mailman/admin/a2-16v-list
> > [root at pogo locks]# tail -2 /var/log/httpd/access_log
> > 144.160.5.25 - - [22/Jul/2014:22:21:14 -0400] "GET
> > /mailman/admin/a2-16v-list HTTP/1.1" 200 20748
> > 144.160.5.25 - - [22/Jul/2014:22:21:30 -0400] "GET
> > /mailman/admindb/a2-16v-list HTTP/1.1" 504 247
> >
> > now the lock folder is as follows
> >
> > [root at pogo locks]# ll
> > total 16K
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.21828.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341
> > [root at pogo locks]#
>
>
> So PID 21828 has the list lock. It looks like the admindb CGI, PID 378
> timed out, presumably because it couldn't get the lock, but its request
> would be a file named a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.378.0, and that doesn't seem
> to be there.
>
> What if anything is in Mailman's 'error' log and 'locks' log?
>
> Locking may be the underlying issue, but it's not just stale locks
> because even after they're cleared, you still have issues.
>
> How did you install 2.1.18-1?
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From chadrebuck at gmail.com  Wed Jul 23 17:05:59 2014
From: chadrebuck at gmail.com (Chad Rebuck)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 11:05:59 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <CA+V5SC-VqCxFC3EL+mApg5YFbtNfQ2iZ-g-goDxDRtkCv9-HGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-KA34pTdbKDBY9Kz00XpOPRpG+uKpVpZAdC=eOZiPGOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+V5SC8ht6gfd_PG+uPo3KR=ozWEpirEfYFvDXS1DDHLBggqAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CED393.9020601@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-H4xe1AHYSNbW3sV4JZ9LZ5Gjob+wd1Mb2ekK-u+qYPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CED7CE.20700@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC86TAURyjEqjL2Rg_eZAn1eTXnQJAYft44M1smfGbFUQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CF1A99.3090700@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC_Jy1fScUMV_mA=Hk8ZnvVFsuiQRSxzPBF75Bxx6cpEbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CF3358.4010907@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-VqCxFC3EL+mApg5YFbtNfQ2iZ-g-goDxDRtkCv9-HGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+V5SC9vpyWBNGB-ikbH+c_ZD2xXLN1ojqK_ffMziGZ64uv6Ng@mail.gmail.com>

Here is additional information.  The log entries for "lifetime has expired"
started happening much more frequently after upgrading to 2.1.18-1.

This is the most recent complete log entry for the "lifetime has expired":

Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881) a2-16v-list.lock lifetime has expired, breaking
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File "/usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner", line
278, in <module>
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)     main()
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File "/usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner", line
238, in main
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)     qrunner.run()
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File
"/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 70, in run
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)     filecnt = self._oneloop()
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File
"/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 119, in _oneloop
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)     self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File
"/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)     keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg,
msgdata)
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File
"/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 115, in _dispose
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)
mlist.Lock(timeout=mm_cfg.LIST_LOCK_TIMEOUT)
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py",
line 161, in Lock
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)     self.__lock.lock(timeout)
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py",
line 306, in lock
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)     important=True)
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py",
line 416, in __writelog
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)     traceback.print_stack(file=logf)


[root at pogo chadr]# grep lifetime /var/lib/mailman/logs/locks
Feb 01 23:05:41 2012 (19141) master-qrunner lifetime has expired, breaking
Dec 19 08:48:06 2012 (25356) master-qrunner lifetime has expired, breaking
Dec 28 17:54:14 2012 (588) master-qrunner lifetime has expired, breaking
Jun 05 03:02:35 2013 (249) master-qrunner lifetime has expired, breaking
Sep 09 09:25:40 2013 (235) a2-16v-list.lock lifetime has expired, breaking
Dec 14 06:30:53 2013 (251) a2-16v-list.lock lifetime has expired, breaking
Feb 05 22:49:50 2014 (247) a2-16v-list.lock lifetime has expired, breaking
Mar 02 22:31:50 2014 (189) master-qrunner lifetime has expired, breaking
Jun 27 17:05:45 2014 (344) master-qrunner lifetime has expired, breaking

--> this is when mailman was upgraded to 2.1.18-1

Jul 20 18:08:00 2014 (365) a2-16v-list.lock lifetime has expired, breaking
Jul 20 23:15:50 2014 (346) a2-16v-list.lock lifetime has expired, breaking
Jul 21 13:58:47 2014 (13825) a2-16v-list.lock lifetime has expired, breaking
Jul 22 22:01:47 2014 (21735) a2-16v-list.lock lifetime has expired, breaking
Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881) a2-16v-list.lock lifetime has expired, breaking



[root at pogo chadr]# grep mailman /var/log/pacman.log
[2011-08-04 23:11] Running 'pacman -S mailman'
[2011-08-04 23:12] Running 'pacman -S mailman'
[2011-08-04 23:15] installed mailman (2.1.14-1)
[2012-04-09 18:04] upgraded mailman (2.1.14-1 -> 2.1.14-3)
[2012-04-30 15:56] Running 'pacman -S mailman'
[2012-04-30 15:57] upgraded mailman (2.1.14-3 -> 2.1.14-3)
[2012-04-30 16:01] Running 'pacman -U
/var/cache/pacman/pkg/mailman-2.1.14-1-arm.pkg.tar.xz'
[2012-04-30 16:02] upgraded mailman (2.1.14-3 -> 2.1.14-1)
[2012-04-30 18:03] Running 'pacman -S mailman'
[2012-04-30 18:14] Running 'pacman -Syu mailman'
[2012-04-30 18:15] Running 'pacman -S mailman'
[2012-04-30 18:16] upgraded mailman (2.1.14-1 -> 2.1.14-4)
[2012-08-14 09:37] upgraded mailman (2.1.14-4 -> 2.1.15-2)
[2013-02-05 03:06] upgraded mailman (2.1.15-2 -> 2.1.15-3)
[2014-03-06 12:37] [PACMAN] upgraded mailman (2.1.15-3 -> 2.1.17-1)
[2014-07-20 17:37] [PACMAN] Running 'pacman -Syu mailman'
[2014-07-20 17:37] [PACMAN] Running 'pacman -S mailman'
[2014-07-20 17:38] [PACMAN] upgraded mailman (2.1.17-1 -> 2.1.18.1-1)
[root at pogo chadr]#


On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 9:54 AM, Chad Rebuck <chadrebuck at gmail.com> wrote:

> I installed it with a package on my arch system using
>
> pacman -Syu
>
> [root at pogo chadr]# ll /var/lib/mailman/locks/
> total 16K
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23 03:52 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.22018.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23 04:45 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.22205.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341
>
> Then I tried to access
>
> http://mail.a2-16v.com/mailman/admindb/a2-16v-list and waited for the 504
> error to appear in the browser
>
>
> [root at pogo chadr]# ll /var/lib/mailman/locks/
> total 24K
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23 03:52 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.22018.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23 04:45 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.22205.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.25275.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341
>
> No recent updates to the locks or error log
>
> [root at pogo chadr]# tail /var/lib/mailman/logs/locks
> Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File
> "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 190, in _onefile
> Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)     keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg,
> msgdata)
> Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File
> "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 115, in _dispose
> Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)
> mlist.Lock(timeout=mm_cfg.LIST_LOCK_TIMEOUT)
> Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File
> "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 161, in Lock
> Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)     self.__lock.lock(timeout)
> Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File
> "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 306, in lock
> Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)     important=True)
> Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)   File
> "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 416, in __writelog
> Jul 23 03:47:28 2014 (21881)     traceback.print_stack(file=logf)
>
> [root at pogo chadr]# tail /var/lib/mailman/logs/error
> Jun 20 06:32:44 2014 mailmanctl(382):      lock = acquire_lock_1(force)
> Jun 20 06:32:44 2014 mailmanctl(382):   File
> "/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl", line 203, in acquire_lock_1
> Jun 20 06:32:44 2014 mailmanctl(382):      if not force or qrunner_state():
> Jun 20 06:32:44 2014 mailmanctl(382):   File
> "/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl", line 187, in qrunner_state
> Jun 20 06:32:44 2014 mailmanctl(382):      os.kill(pid, 0)
> Jun 20 06:32:44 2014 mailmanctl(382): OSError :  [Errno 1] Operation not
> permitted
> Jun 21 01:24:28 2014 (3941) No such list "a2-16v-list<":
> Jul 20 17:47:52 2014 mailmanctl(20690): The master qrunner lock could not
> be acquired because it appears as if another
> master qrunner is already running.
> Jul 20 17:47:52 2014 mailmanctl(20690):
>
> [root at pogo chadr]# date
> Wed Jul 23 09:51:56 EDT 2014
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 12:00 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>
>> On 07/22/2014 07:25 PM, Chad Rebuck wrote:
>> > I didn't remove it until now, but I saw it seemed to update itself when
>> I
>> > tried to access the admin page.
>> >
>> > [root at pogo locks]# ll
>> > total 16K
>> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
>> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014
>> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.21765.0
>> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
>> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341
>> >
>> > [root at pogo locks]# rm -rf a2-16v-list.lock*
>> >
>> > [root at pogo locks]# ll
>> > total 8.0K
>> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
>> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341
>> >
>> >
>> > I was then able to access the admin page, but when I clicked on "tend to
>> > pending requests" I got the 504 error after a couple minutes
>> >
>> > [root at pogo locks]# tail -2 /var/log/httpd/error_log
>> > [Tue Jul 22 22:22:30.721677 2014] [cgi:error] [pid 378:tid 1143579696]
>> > [client 144.160.5.25:34507] Script timed out before returning headers:
>> > admindb, referer: http://mail.a2-16v.com/mailman/admin/a2-16v-list
>> > [Tue Jul 22 22:23:30.781402 2014] [cgi:warn] [pid 378:tid 1143579696]
>> > [client 144.160.5.25:34507] AH01220: Timeout waiting for output from
>> CGI
>> > script /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/admindb, referer:
>> > http://mail.a2-16v.com/mailman/admin/a2-16v-list
>> > [root at pogo locks]# tail -2 /var/log/httpd/access_log
>> > 144.160.5.25 - - [22/Jul/2014:22:21:14 -0400] "GET
>> > /mailman/admin/a2-16v-list HTTP/1.1" 200 20748
>> > 144.160.5.25 - - [22/Jul/2014:22:21:30 -0400] "GET
>> > /mailman/admindb/a2-16v-list HTTP/1.1" 504 247
>> >
>> > now the lock folder is as follows
>> >
>> > [root at pogo locks]# ll
>> > total 16K
>> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
>> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014
>> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.21828.0
>> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
>> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341
>> > [root at pogo locks]#
>>
>>
>> So PID 21828 has the list lock. It looks like the admindb CGI, PID 378
>> timed out, presumably because it couldn't get the lock, but its request
>> would be a file named a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.378.0, and that doesn't seem
>> to be there.
>>
>> What if anything is in Mailman's 'error' log and 'locks' log?
>>
>> Locking may be the underlying issue, but it's not just stale locks
>> because even after they're cleared, you still have issues.
>>
>> How did you install 2.1.18-1?
>>
>> --
>> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
>> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>>
>
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 23 17:10:23 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 08:10:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] {Disarmed} Re: unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <CA+V5SC-VqCxFC3EL+mApg5YFbtNfQ2iZ-g-goDxDRtkCv9-HGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>	<874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>	<53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC-KA34pTdbKDBY9Kz00XpOPRpG+uKpVpZAdC=eOZiPGOw@mail.gmail.com>	<CA+V5SC8ht6gfd_PG+uPo3KR=ozWEpirEfYFvDXS1DDHLBggqAg@mail.gmail.com>	<53CED393.9020601@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC-H4xe1AHYSNbW3sV4JZ9LZ5Gjob+wd1Mb2ekK-u+qYPw@mail.gmail.com>	<53CED7CE.20700@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC86TAURyjEqjL2Rg_eZAn1eTXnQJAYft44M1smfGbFUQg@mail.gmail.com>	<53CF1A99.3090700@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC_Jy1fScUMV_mA=Hk8ZnvVFsuiQRSxzPBF75Bxx6cpEbQ@mail.gmail.com>	<53CF3358.4010907@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-VqCxFC3EL+mApg5YFbtNfQ2iZ-g-goDxDRtkCv9-HGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53CFD05F.1030200@msapiro.net>

On 07/23/2014 06:54 AM, Chad Rebuck wrote:
> I installed it with a package on my arch system using 
> 
> pacman -Syu


Did it ever work?


> [root at pogo chadr]# ll /var/lib/mailman/locks/
> total 16K
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23 03:52 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.22018.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23 04:45 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.22205.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341
> 
> Then I tried to access
> 
> http://mail.a2-16v.com/mailman/admindb/a2-16v-list and waited for the
> 504 error to appear in the browser
> 
> 
> [root at pogo chadr]# ll /var/lib/mailman/locks/
> total 24K
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23 03:52 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.22018.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23 04:45 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.22205.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.25275.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341


I don't think the issue is lock contention because it appears that your
CGI process was PID 25275 and it acquired the lock. Either that or
something is really hosed and the CGI attempts to lock the list twice.

Also, there's something weird about the clock on your system because 4
of the above 6 files have time stamps in the future.

I don't know if there are multiple runner issues or not, and they
shouldn't affect CGIs anyway, but see the "You need to stop all Mailman
processes and then start Mailman once only." section in the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/_4A9>. Do this up to the point of starting
Mailman, but before starting Mailman remove all files from the
/var/lib/mailman/locks/ directory and then try the web interface again
without first starting Mailman.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From chadrebuck at gmail.com  Wed Jul 23 17:39:00 2014
From: chadrebuck at gmail.com (Chad Rebuck)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 11:39:00 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] {Disarmed} Re: unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <53CFD05F.1030200@msapiro.net>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-KA34pTdbKDBY9Kz00XpOPRpG+uKpVpZAdC=eOZiPGOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+V5SC8ht6gfd_PG+uPo3KR=ozWEpirEfYFvDXS1DDHLBggqAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CED393.9020601@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-H4xe1AHYSNbW3sV4JZ9LZ5Gjob+wd1Mb2ekK-u+qYPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CED7CE.20700@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC86TAURyjEqjL2Rg_eZAn1eTXnQJAYft44M1smfGbFUQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CF1A99.3090700@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC_Jy1fScUMV_mA=Hk8ZnvVFsuiQRSxzPBF75Bxx6cpEbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CF3358.4010907@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-VqCxFC3EL+mApg5YFbtNfQ2iZ-g-goDxDRtkCv9-HGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CFD05F.1030200@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CA+V5SC8UNhm6H4w+N46RTUxY+SXbztQBzOY-=3WNkbJ5iRzLyw@mail.gmail.com>

It has been months at least (maybe even back to 2013) since I've attempted
to access the pending moderator requests, but it has worked before.

I stopped mailman, confirmed no python processes exist, and deleted all
files from the locks dir.  I could access the admin page, but not the
pending moderator requests.

[root at pogo locks]# ll
total 8.0K
-rw-rw-r-- 2 http mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
-rw-rw-r-- 2 http mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.25650.0
[root at pogo locks]#





On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 07/23/2014 06:54 AM, Chad Rebuck wrote:
> > I installed it with a package on my arch system using
> >
> > pacman -Syu
>
>
> Did it ever work?
>
>
> > [root at pogo chadr]# ll /var/lib/mailman/locks/
> > total 16K
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23 03:52
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.22018.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23 04:45
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.22205.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341
> >
> > Then I tried to access
> >
> > http://mail.a2-16v.com/mailman/admindb/a2-16v-list and waited for the
> > 504 error to appear in the browser
> >
> >
> > [root at pogo chadr]# ll /var/lib/mailman/locks/
> > total 24K
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23 03:52
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.22018.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 1 http    mailman 52 Jul 23 04:45
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.22205.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014
> a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.25275.0
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 46 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.341
>
>
> I don't think the issue is lock contention because it appears that your
> CGI process was PID 25275 and it acquired the lock. Either that or
> something is really hosed and the CGI attempts to lock the list twice.
>
> Also, there's something weird about the clock on your system because 4
> of the above 6 files have time stamps in the future.
>
> I don't know if there are multiple runner issues or not, and they
> shouldn't affect CGIs anyway, but see the "You need to stop all Mailman
> processes and then start Mailman once only." section in the FAQ at
> <http://wiki.list.org/x/_4A9>. Do this up to the point of starting
> Mailman, but before starting Mailman remove all files from the
> /var/lib/mailman/locks/ directory and then try the web interface again
> without first starting Mailman.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 23 17:50:45 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 08:50:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best method to interface Mailman3 from custom
 web application
In-Reply-To: <1406116713.43273.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1406116713.43273.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <53CFD9D5.5030104@msapiro.net>

On 07/23/2014 04:58 AM, ML mail wrote:
> 
> I have built a simple mail control panel in PHP where I would like to be able to create new mailing lists, subscribe/unsubscribe members, etc. Now I was wondering what would be the best method for my control panel to do that? I am aware of the following methods:
> 
> - using SQL to directly speak with mailman3 database
> - using the REST API
> 
> What would you recommend and are there any other alternatives?


I think its been mentioned to you before, but
mailman-developers at python.org is much preferred over
mailman-users at python.org for MM 3 discussion.

In any case, one of the major reasons for splitting MM 3 into separate
pieces with a core engine with a REST API was to facilitate exactly what
you are talking about. So use the REST API.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 23 18:05:52 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 09:05:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] {Disarmed} Re: unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <CA+V5SC8UNhm6H4w+N46RTUxY+SXbztQBzOY-=3WNkbJ5iRzLyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>	<874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>	<53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC-KA34pTdbKDBY9Kz00XpOPRpG+uKpVpZAdC=eOZiPGOw@mail.gmail.com>	<CA+V5SC8ht6gfd_PG+uPo3KR=ozWEpirEfYFvDXS1DDHLBggqAg@mail.gmail.com>	<53CED393.9020601@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC-H4xe1AHYSNbW3sV4JZ9LZ5Gjob+wd1Mb2ekK-u+qYPw@mail.gmail.com>	<53CED7CE.20700@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC86TAURyjEqjL2Rg_eZAn1eTXnQJAYft44M1smfGbFUQg@mail.gmail.com>	<53CF1A99.3090700@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC_Jy1fScUMV_mA=Hk8ZnvVFsuiQRSxzPBF75Bxx6cpEbQ@mail.gmail.com>	<53CF3358.4010907@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC-VqCxFC3EL+mApg5YFbtNfQ2iZ-g-goDxDRtkCv9-HGQ@mail.gmail.com>	<53CFD05F.1030200@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC8UNhm6H4w+N46RTUxY+SXbztQBzOY-=3WNkbJ5iRzLyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53CFDD60.5050503@msapiro.net>

On 07/23/2014 08:39 AM, Chad Rebuck wrote:
> 
> I stopped mailman, confirmed no python processes exist, and deleted all
> files from the locks dir.  I could access the admin page, but not the
> pending moderator requests.
> 
> [root at pogo locks]# ll
> total 8.0K
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 http mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 http mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.25650.0
> [root at pogo locks]#


First, ignore my prior remark about time stamps in the future. This is
expected. It is the way locking determines when a lock expires.

What happens if you do something like the above, but before the CGI
times out you look at the locks and then look for the PID?

I.e., if you looked at the locks and saw the above, do

ps -fww 25650

to see some detail about the process that has the lock while it's still
there.

It appears that the CGI is not responding for some other reason and when
killed by the web server, it leaves the list locked. So locked lists are
not the cause of the problem, but another symptom of the problem
whatever that might be.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mlnospam at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 23 18:12:56 2014
From: mlnospam at yahoo.com (ML mail)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 09:12:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best method to interface Mailman3 from custom
	web application
In-Reply-To: <53CFD9D5.5030104@msapiro.net>
References: <1406116713.43273.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <53CFD9D5.5030104@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <1406131976.37852.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Thanks I will go for the REST API and sorry for bothering the mailman users mailing list. I will use the developers one in the future instead.



On Wednesday, July 23, 2014 5:50 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
 


On 07/23/2014 04:58 AM, ML mail wrote:

> 
> I have built a simple mail control panel in PHP where I would like to be able to create new mailing lists, subscribe/unsubscribe members, etc. Now I was wondering what would be the best method for my control panel to do that? I am aware of the following methods:
> 
> - using SQL to directly speak with mailman3 database
> - using the REST API
> 
> What would you recommend and are there any other alternatives?


I think its been mentioned to you before, but
mailman-developers at python.org is much preferred over
mailman-users at python.org for MM 3 discussion.

In any case, one of the major reasons for splitting MM 3 into separate
pieces with a core engine with a REST API was to facilitate exactly what
you are talking about. So use the REST API.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>? ? ? ? The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California? ? better use your sense - B. Dylan
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/mlnospam%40yahoo.com

From chadrebuck at gmail.com  Wed Jul 23 18:15:55 2014
From: chadrebuck at gmail.com (Chad Rebuck)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 12:15:55 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] {Disarmed} Re: unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <53CFDD60.5050503@msapiro.net>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-KA34pTdbKDBY9Kz00XpOPRpG+uKpVpZAdC=eOZiPGOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+V5SC8ht6gfd_PG+uPo3KR=ozWEpirEfYFvDXS1DDHLBggqAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CED393.9020601@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-H4xe1AHYSNbW3sV4JZ9LZ5Gjob+wd1Mb2ekK-u+qYPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CED7CE.20700@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC86TAURyjEqjL2Rg_eZAn1eTXnQJAYft44M1smfGbFUQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CF1A99.3090700@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC_Jy1fScUMV_mA=Hk8ZnvVFsuiQRSxzPBF75Bxx6cpEbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CF3358.4010907@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-VqCxFC3EL+mApg5YFbtNfQ2iZ-g-goDxDRtkCv9-HGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CFD05F.1030200@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC8UNhm6H4w+N46RTUxY+SXbztQBzOY-=3WNkbJ5iRzLyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CFDD60.5050503@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CA+V5SC9QZcwK6_51o1hsLJ+i7y137d6zvvjG91ncc-rYai1FOg@mail.gmail.com>

Here ya go

[root at pogo locks]# ll
total 16K
-rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
-rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.25890.0
-rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 48 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
-rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 48 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.25683
[root at pogo locks]# ps -fww 25890
UID        PID  PPID  C STIME TTY      STAT   TIME CMD
http     25890   378 95 12:12 ?        R      0:11 /usr/bin/python2 -S
/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/driver admindb




On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 07/23/2014 08:39 AM, Chad Rebuck wrote:
> >
> > I stopped mailman, confirmed no python processes exist, and deleted all
> > files from the locks dir.  I could access the admin page, but not the
> > pending moderator requests.
> >
> > [root at pogo locks]# ll
> > total 8.0K
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 http mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
> > -rw-rw-r-- 2 http mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.25650.0
> > [root at pogo locks]#
>
>
> First, ignore my prior remark about time stamps in the future. This is
> expected. It is the way locking determines when a lock expires.
>
> What happens if you do something like the above, but before the CGI
> times out you look at the locks and then look for the PID?
>
> I.e., if you looked at the locks and saw the above, do
>
> ps -fww 25650
>
> to see some detail about the process that has the lock while it's still
> there.
>
> It appears that the CGI is not responding for some other reason and when
> killed by the web server, it leaves the list locked. So locked lists are
> not the cause of the problem, but another symptom of the problem
> whatever that might be.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 23 18:26:34 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 09:26:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <CA+V5SC9QZcwK6_51o1hsLJ+i7y137d6zvvjG91ncc-rYai1FOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>	<874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>	<53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC-KA34pTdbKDBY9Kz00XpOPRpG+uKpVpZAdC=eOZiPGOw@mail.gmail.com>	<CA+V5SC8ht6gfd_PG+uPo3KR=ozWEpirEfYFvDXS1DDHLBggqAg@mail.gmail.com>	<53CED393.9020601@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC-H4xe1AHYSNbW3sV4JZ9LZ5Gjob+wd1Mb2ekK-u+qYPw@mail.gmail.com>	<53CED7CE.20700@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC86TAURyjEqjL2Rg_eZAn1eTXnQJAYft44M1smfGbFUQg@mail.gmail.com>	<53CF1A99.3090700@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC_Jy1fScUMV_mA=Hk8ZnvVFsuiQRSxzPBF75Bxx6cpEbQ@mail.gmail.com>	<53CF3358.4010907@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC-VqCxFC3EL+mApg5YFbtNfQ2iZ-g-goDxDRtkCv9-HGQ@mail.gmail.com>	<53CFD05F.1030200@msapiro.net>	<CA+V5SC8UNhm6H4w+N46RTUxY+SXbztQBzOY-=3WNkbJ5iRzLyw@mail.gmail.com>	<53CFDD60.5050503@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC9QZcwK6_51o1hsLJ+i7y137d6zvvjG91ncc-rYai1FOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53CFE23A.8000009@msapiro.net>

On 07/23/2014 09:15 AM, Chad Rebuck wrote:
> Here ya go
> 
> [root at pogo locks]# ll
> total 16K
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 http    mailman 52 Jul 23  2014 a2-16v-list.lock.pogo.25890.0
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 48 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner
> -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 48 Jul 24  2014 master-qrunner.pogo.25683
> [root at pogo locks]# ps -fww 25890
> UID        PID  PPID  C STIME TTY      STAT   TIME CMD
> http     25890   378 95 12:12 ?        R      0:11 /usr/bin/python2 -S
> /usr/lib/mailman/scripts/driver admindb


I have some ideas about debugging, but it's complicated and I won't have
time for more detail until late this afternoon, but what happens if you
give the shell command

/usr/bin/python2 /usr/lib/mailman/scripts/driver admindb

You should get a "we hit a bug" response and Mailman's error log should
have something like

admin(5110): Traceback (most recent call last):
admin(5110):   File "scripts/driver", line 111, in run_main
admin(5110):     if not request_method.lower() in ['get', 'post', 'head']:
admin(5110): AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'lower'

I expect you'll see this and we need to set some environment variables
to get further, but more later ...

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul 24 02:28:19 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 17:28:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <53CFE23A.8000009@msapiro.net>
References: <53CFE23A.8000009@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <53D05323.90202@msapiro.net>

Just to provide closure here, after a bit more off list communication,
it was determined that the list's request.pck was huge (1.3 MB) with
probably thousands of held messages and the admindb CGI was being timed
out by the web server before it could process the whole file which was
leaving the list locked.

The OP has set the list's max_days_to_hold = 30 which should allow
cron/checkdbs to clean things up the next time it runs.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Jul 24 02:34:51 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 09:34:51 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Best method to interface Mailman3 from
	custom	web application
In-Reply-To: <1406131976.37852.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1406116713.43273.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <53CFD9D5.5030104@msapiro.net>
 <1406131976.37852.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <87ppgvoaqc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

ML mail writes:

 > Thanks I will go for the REST API and sorry for bothering the
 > mailman users mailing list. I will use the developers one in the
 > future instead.

It's really not a question of "bothering", it's a question of where
you will get the best answers.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Jul 24 02:37:55 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 09:37:55 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <CA+V5SC9vpyWBNGB-ikbH+c_ZD2xXLN1ojqK_ffMziGZ64uv6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-KA34pTdbKDBY9Kz00XpOPRpG+uKpVpZAdC=eOZiPGOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+V5SC8ht6gfd_PG+uPo3KR=ozWEpirEfYFvDXS1DDHLBggqAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CED393.9020601@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-H4xe1AHYSNbW3sV4JZ9LZ5Gjob+wd1Mb2ekK-u+qYPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CED7CE.20700@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC86TAURyjEqjL2Rg_eZAn1eTXnQJAYft44M1smfGbFUQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CF1A99.3090700@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC_Jy1fScUMV_mA=Hk8ZnvVFsuiQRSxzPBF75Bxx6cpEbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CF3358.4010907@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-VqCxFC3EL+mApg5YFbtNfQ2iZ-g-goDxDRtkCv9-HGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+V5SC9vpyWBNGB-ikbH+c_ZD2xXLN1ojqK_ffMziGZ64uv6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87oawfoal8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Chad Rebuck writes:

 > Here is additional information.  The log entries for "lifetime has
 > expired" started happening much more frequently after upgrading to
 > 2.1.18-1.

Did you enable any of the features that require querying the DNS for
DMARC policy (eg, Privacy | Sender Filters | dmarc_moderation_action)?




From chadrebuck at gmail.com  Thu Jul 24 03:25:39 2014
From: chadrebuck at gmail.com (Chad Rebuck)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 21:25:39 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unable to access admin interface
In-Reply-To: <87oawfoal8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CA+V5SC9iKWzHn-n_1T+UrhsLiD6Zq3mgV3rOVmFd67ywuNGLiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <874myaoyup.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CA+V5SC9g0C_uyf36JrrL5swGt1jBNbdo-xBEYsryiTr3ThOo2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CECC05.3050108@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-KA34pTdbKDBY9Kz00XpOPRpG+uKpVpZAdC=eOZiPGOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+V5SC8ht6gfd_PG+uPo3KR=ozWEpirEfYFvDXS1DDHLBggqAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CED393.9020601@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-H4xe1AHYSNbW3sV4JZ9LZ5Gjob+wd1Mb2ekK-u+qYPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CED7CE.20700@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC86TAURyjEqjL2Rg_eZAn1eTXnQJAYft44M1smfGbFUQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CF1A99.3090700@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC_Jy1fScUMV_mA=Hk8ZnvVFsuiQRSxzPBF75Bxx6cpEbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <53CF3358.4010907@msapiro.net>
 <CA+V5SC-VqCxFC3EL+mApg5YFbtNfQ2iZ-g-goDxDRtkCv9-HGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+V5SC9vpyWBNGB-ikbH+c_ZD2xXLN1ojqK_ffMziGZ64uv6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <87oawfoal8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CA+V5SC-=Stm8Pc3wp2oiZtQsA47PLgh4GCLNzPTu5icxM3aT5w@mail.gmail.com>

hi. Nope, didn't touch the configuration after the latest update.  Glad
Mark led me to the root cause.  Working just fine now that I ran the
database check.

Great support!
On Jul 23, 2014 8:37 PM, "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:

> Chad Rebuck writes:
>
>  > Here is additional information.  The log entries for "lifetime has
>  > expired" started happening much more frequently after upgrading to
>  > 2.1.18-1.
>
> Did you enable any of the features that require querying the DNS for
> DMARC policy (eg, Privacy | Sender Filters | dmarc_moderation_action)?
>
>
>
>

From jamestr at gmail.com  Wed Jul 23 18:43:10 2014
From: jamestr at gmail.com (James Riemermann)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 11:43:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] New install of mailman -- web links point to
	non-working https address
Message-ID: <CABmdnkp6HJvazTZ5VxVueq3rjo70AfReKoP9YFci857fAwXnPA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I just installed mailman on a Centos 6.5 server with Apache, and find that
all the links on the web interface are broken because they point to an
https:// address with /cgi-bin/ in the address rather than an http://
address that works.

The Defaults.py config includes the following line:

DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'

rather than the folloowing:

DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'https://%s/mailman/cgi-bin/'

which was recommended on one web tutorial I have been using for setup.

While I wouldn't mind having it work at the SSL/https address, I don't have
a working SSL certificate, won't be purchasing one, and would rather not
use a self-signed one that pops up security prompts every time someone
visits. So, I'm inclined to stick with the less secure http://

I've tried configuring it both ways, changing the DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN and
restarting mailman, but either way the site works at
http://www.mysite.com/mailman/listinfo/, but all the web links are to
https://www.mysite.com/cgi-bin/listinfo/.

I've also checked the config files "mm_cfg.py" and "mailman.conf" and don't
see anything that is pointing to an https:// address.

Any suggestions? I am a novice and appreciate your patience.

James

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul 24 20:15:43 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 11:15:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] New install of mailman -- web links point to
 non-working https address
In-Reply-To: <CABmdnkp6HJvazTZ5VxVueq3rjo70AfReKoP9YFci857fAwXnPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABmdnkp6HJvazTZ5VxVueq3rjo70AfReKoP9YFci857fAwXnPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53D14D4F.8070106@msapiro.net>

On 07/23/2014 09:43 AM, James Riemermann wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I just installed mailman on a Centos 6.5 server with Apache, and find that
> all the links on the web interface are broken because they point to an
> https:// address with /cgi-bin/ in the address rather than an http://
> address that works.
> 
> The Defaults.py config includes the following line:
> 
> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'
> 
> rather than the folloowing:
> 
> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'https://%s/mailman/cgi-bin/'
> 
> which was recommended on one web tutorial I have been using for setup.


First of all, never edit Defaults.py. Make all your settings as
overrides in mm_cfg.py. See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/fIA9>.


> I've tried configuring it both ways, changing the DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN and
> restarting mailman, but either way the site works at
> http://www.mysite.com/mailman/listinfo/, but all the web links are to
> https://www.mysite.com/cgi-bin/listinfo/.


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/mIA9> for the answer to this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Thu Jul 24 20:14:23 2014
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 19:14:23 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] New install of mailman -- web links point to
 non-working https address
In-Reply-To: <CABmdnkp6HJvazTZ5VxVueq3rjo70AfReKoP9YFci857fAwXnPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABmdnkp6HJvazTZ5VxVueq3rjo70AfReKoP9YFci857fAwXnPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20140724181423.GK6878@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 11:43:10AM -0500, James Riemermann wrote:

[ ? ]

> The Defaults.py config includes the following line:
> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'
> rather than the folloowing:
> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'https://%s/mailman/cgi-bin/'
> 
> which was recommended on one web tutorial I have been using for setup.
> 
> I've tried configuring it both ways, changing the DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN and
> restarting mailman, but either way the site works at
> http://www.mysite.com/mailman/listinfo/, but all the web links are to
> https://www.mysite.com/cgi-bin/listinfo/.
> 
> I've also checked the config files "mm_cfg.py" and "mailman.conf" and don't
> see anything that is pointing to an https:// address.
> 
> Any suggestions? I am a novice and appreciate your patience.

Try fix_url : see
    http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030616



-- 
"Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder
 respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."
    -- Orwell, 'Politics and the English Language'

From pknowles at tpnsolutions.com  Fri Jul 25 21:12:33 2014
From: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com (Peter Knowles)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 12:12:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Stats
Message-ID: <CAD=__t8-6EE_MeTEwjPqNv4Ppgg23G_dzMxYAAOwuKaj-wSYDA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Does anyone know of any good statistics scripts that either can email
detailed stats to list admins, or even offer stats from within the admin
itself?

We're using Mailman 2.1.18-1

Thanks in advance!

Best Regards,
Peter Knowles
TPN Solutions

Email: pknowles at tpnsolutions.com
Phone: 604-229-0715
Skype: tpnsupport
Website: http://www.tpnsolutions.com

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 25 22:16:46 2014
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 13:16:46 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Stats
In-Reply-To: <CAD=__t8-6EE_MeTEwjPqNv4Ppgg23G_dzMxYAAOwuKaj-wSYDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD=__t8-6EE_MeTEwjPqNv4Ppgg23G_dzMxYAAOwuKaj-wSYDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53D2BB2E.6000008@msapiro.net>

On 07/25/2014 12:12 PM, Peter Knowles wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know of any good statistics scripts that either can email
> detailed stats to list admins, or even offer stats from within the admin
> itself?


There's the mmdsr script in the contrib directory of the distribution,
but it's more server level statistics than list level. Even if it
doesn't directly suit your purpose, it can serve as an example of how to
extract relevant information from Mailman's log files.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From al.maskari at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 25 16:19:18 2014
From: al.maskari at hotmail.com (Abdullah Maskari)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 18:19:18 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] emails from mailman rejected with error "reject=550
 Relaying denied. IP name possibly forged"
Message-ID: <DUB121-W26C610DFC01855881DF00782FC0@phx.gbl>

Hi,

I seem to have an issue with my mailhost server randomly rejecting emails from my mailman server whenever they are directed externally.
My current setup is I have a mailman server running mailman and sendmail which sends all emails to my mailhost server also running sendmail. Mailhost passes the emails through mailscanner etc. and then relays them either externally or internally based on the target email. Internal relaying works just fine but external relaying seems to sporadically accept some addresses for delivery and reject others. the choice of addresses it chooses to accept or reject is different for every attempt I am so for example for my first attempt it will forward the email to the first and 3rd external email addresses and reject to forward to the rest and on the 2nd attempt it rejects the the 2nd and 3rd and 4th but sends the emails to the 1st and 5th addresses just fine and so on. My mailman server's logs do not show any errors but my mailhost does.
this is the extract in question from my mailhost server mail log file:
Jul 24 09:08:52 mailhost sm-mta[3296]: s6O88pSr003296: from=<Source-email at external-domain.com>, size=2260, class=0, nrcpts=1, msgid=<cq0nx1du5icvm2eubfc8lvdy.1406189339980 at email.android.com>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA-v4, relay=mail-we0-f174.external-domain.com [74.125.82.174]Jul 24 09:08:52 mailhost sm-mta[3296]: s6O88pSr003296: to=<mailman-list at dmz.on.internal-domain.com>, delay=00:00:00, mailer=esmtp, pri=32260, stat=queuedJul 24 09:08:53 mailhost MailScanner[2909]: New Batch: Scanning 1 messages, 2837 bytesJul 24 09:08:53 mailhost MailScanner[2909]: Virus and Content Scanning: StartingJul 24 09:09:07 mailhost MailScanner[2909]: MCP Checks: StartingJul 24 09:09:07 mailhost MailScanner[2909]: Uninfected: Delivered 1 messagesJul 24 09:09:07 mailhost MailScanner[2909]: Deleted 1 messages from processing-databaseJul 24 09:09:08 mailhost sendmail[3307]: s6O88pSr003296: to=<mailman-list at dmz.on.internal-domain.com>, delay=00:00:16, xdelay=00:00:01, mailer=esmtp, pri=122260, relay=mailman-server.dmz.on.internal-domain.com. [172.16.0.143], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (s6O893Rm003831 Message accepted for delivery)Jul 24 09:09:16 mailhost sm-mta[3309]: s6O89FAL003309: ruleset=check_rcpt, arg1=<target-address at external.domain2.com>, relay=mailhost.server.in-dmz.on.internal-domain.com [mailhost ip address] (may be forged), reject=550 5.7.1 <target-address at external.domain2.com>... Relaying denied. IP name possibly forged [mailhost ip address]Jul 24 09:09:16 mailhost sm-mta[3309]: s6O89FAL003309: from=<mailman-list-bounces at dmz.on.internal-domain.com>, size=4645, class=0, nrcpts=0, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA-v4, relay=mailhost.server.in-dmz.on.internal-domain.com [mailhost ip address] (may be forged)Jul 24 09:09:16 mailhost sm-mta[3309]: s6O89FAN003309: <mailman-list-bounces at dmz.on.internal-domain.com>... User unknownJul 24 09:09:16 mailhost sm-mta[3309]: s6O89FAN003309: from=<>, size=0, class=0, nrcpts=0, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA-v4, relay=mailhost.server.in-dmz.on.internal-domain.com [mailhost ip address] (may be forged)Jul 24 09:09:16 mailhost sm-mta[3309]: s6O89FAP003309: from=<>, size=2657, class=0, nrcpts=1, msgid=<201407240809.s6O89CZP003837 at mailman-server.dmz.on.internal-domain.com>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA-v4, relay=mailhost.server.in-dmz.on.internal-domain.com [mailhost ip address] (may be forged)Jul 24 09:09:16 mailhost sm-mta[3309]: s6O89FAP003309: to=<support-email at internal-domain.com>, delay=00:00:00, mailer=esmtp, pri=32657, stat=queuedJul 24 09:09:16 mailhost sm-mta[3310]: s6O89FRV003310: from=<mailman-list-bounces at dmz.on.internal-domain.com>, size=4640, class=-30, nrcpts=2, msgid=<cq0nx1du5icvm2eubfc8lvdy.1406189339980 at email.android.com>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA-v4, relay=mailhost.serscis.eu [mailhost ip address]Jul 24 09:09:16 mailhost sm-mta[3310]: s6O89FRV003310: to=<Source-email at external-domain.com>, delay=00:00:00, mailer=esmtp, pri=118640, stat=queuedJul 24 09:09:16 mailhost sm-mta[3310]: s6O89FRV003310: to=<target-address at external.domain.com>, delay=00:00:00, mailer=esmtp, pri=118640, stat=queuedJul 24 09:09:16 mailhost sm-mta[3311]: s6O89Fll003311: ruleset=check_rcpt, arg1=<target-address at external.domain3.com>, relay=mailhost.server.in-dmz.on.internal-domain.com [mailhost ip address] (may be forged), reject=550 5.7.1 <target-address at external.domain3.com>... Relaying denied. IP name possibly forged [mailhost ip address]Jul 24 09:09:16 mailhost sm-mta[3311]: s6O89Fll003311: from=<mailman-list-bounces at dmz.on.internal-domain.com>, size=4640, class=-30, nrcpts=1, msgid=<cq0nx1du5icvm2eubfc8lvdy.1406189339980 at email.android.com>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA-v4, relay=mailhost.server.in-dmz.on.internal-domain.com [mailhost ip address] (may be forged)Jul 24 09:09:16 mailhost sm-mta[3311]: s6O89Fll003311: to=<target-address at internal-domain.com>, delay=00:00:00, mailer=esmtp, pri=88640, stat=queuedJul 24 09:09:17 mailhost sm-mta[3311]: s6O89Fln003311: <mailman-list-bounces at dmz.on.internal-domain.com>... User unknownJul 24 09:09:17 mailhost sm-mta[3311]: s6O89Fln003311: from=<>, size=0, class=0, nrcpts=0, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA-v4, relay=mailhost.server.in-dmz.on.internal-domain.com [mailhost ip address] (may be forged)Jul 24 09:09:17 mailhost sm-mta[3311]: s6O89Flp003311: from=<>, size=2657, class=0, nrcpts=1, msgid=<201407240809.s6O89CZP003841 at mailman-server.dmz.on.internal-domain.com>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA-v4, relay=mailhost.server.in-dmz.on.internal-domain.com [mailhost ip address] (may be forged)Jul 24 09:09:17 mailhost sm-mta[3311]: s6O89Flp003311: to=<support-email at internal-domain.com>, delay=00:00:00, mailer=esmtp, pri=32657, stat=queued



Any help would be appreciated.
ThanksAbZ
 		 	   		  

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Jul 27 01:54:32 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2014 08:54:32 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] emails from mailman rejected with error "reject=550
 Relaying denied. IP name possibly forged"
In-Reply-To: <DUB121-W26C610DFC01855881DF00782FC0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB121-W26C610DFC01855881DF00782FC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <877g2zoevb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Abdullah Maskari writes:

 > Jul 24 09:09:16 mailhost sm-mta[3309]: s6O89FAL003309:
 > ruleset=check_rcpt, arg1=<target-address at external.domain2.com>,
 > relay=mailhost.server.in-dmz.on.internal-domain.com [mailhost ip
 > address] (may be forged), reject=550 5.7.1
 > <target-address at external.domain2.com>... Relaying denied. IP name
 > possibly forged [mailhost ip address]

Looks to me like your DNS is quite broken (the references to IP
addresses being forged).  Many destination hosts will filter such
mail.

The enhanced status code is 5.7.1, an administrative reject.  You've
violated somebody's spam-filtering policy, and they're not accepting
mail from you.  You might want to check if your IP address(es) are on
a blackhole list.

However, I think the immediate priority is fixing your DNS so that
your external mail server is the MX for your domain, which has a
proper A and/or AAAA address (ie, the domain name advertised is not a
CNAME), and has PTR record from the MX name to the server's IP.


From al.maskari at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 27 22:43:35 2014
From: al.maskari at hotmail.com (Abdullah AL-Maskari)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2014 21:43:35 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] emails from mailman rejected with error
 "reject=550 Relaying denied. IP name possibly forged"
In-Reply-To: <877g2zoevb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <DUB121-W26C610DFC01855881DF00782FC0@phx.gbl>
 <877g2zoevb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <BLU436-SMTP40BC2046F6EA0204DD409482FA0@phx.gbl>

Hi,

thanks for your reply.

I should have probably mentioned that I have another instance of mailman 
running on another server on the network and it is not having any 
trouble sending mail through mailhost. The sendmail files I am using for 
my mailman installation have been copied from the other server as the 
whole idea is to migrate from the currently working server to the one I 
built.

I will look at the spam filter configurations and my DNS but I dont see 
how any of those systems could be broken if the original mailman server 
is working fine.


Thanks
Abdullah
On 27/07/2014 00:54, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Abdullah Maskari writes:
>
>   > Jul 24 09:09:16 mailhost sm-mta[3309]: s6O89FAL003309:
>   > ruleset=check_rcpt, arg1=<target-address at external.domain2.com>,
>   > relay=mailhost.server.in-dmz.on.internal-domain.com [mailhost ip
>   > address] (may be forged), reject=550 5.7.1
>   > <target-address at external.domain2.com>... Relaying denied. IP name
>   > possibly forged [mailhost ip address]
>
> Looks to me like your DNS is quite broken (the references to IP
> addresses being forged).  Many destination hosts will filter such
> mail.
>
> The enhanced status code is 5.7.1, an administrative reject.  You've
> violated somebody's spam-filtering policy, and they're not accepting
> mail from you.  You might want to check if your IP address(es) are on
> a blackhole list.
>
> However, I think the immediate priority is fixing your DNS so that
> your external mail server is the MX for your domain, which has a
> proper A and/or AAAA address (ie, the domain name advertised is not a
> CNAME), and has PTR record from the MX name to the server's IP.
>


From pshute at nuw.org.au  Mon Jul 28 00:01:14 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 08:01:14 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] emails from mailman rejected with error
 "reject=550 Relaying denied. IP name possibly forged"
In-Reply-To: <BLU436-SMTP40BC2046F6EA0204DD409482FA0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB121-W26C610DFC01855881DF00782FC0@phx.gbl>
 <877g2zoevb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <BLU436-SMTP40BC2046F6EA0204DD409482FA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C3A9B@nuwvicms2>

Abdullah AL-Maskari wrote:

> I should have probably mentioned that I have another instance 
> of mailman running on another server on the network and it is 
> not having any trouble sending mail through mailhost. The 
> sendmail files I am using for my mailman installation have 
> been copied from the other server as the whole idea is to 
> migrate from the currently working server to the one I built.
> 
> I will look at the spam filter configurations and my DNS but 
> I dont see how any of those systems could be broken if the 
> original mailman server is working fine.

Because different recipient servers respond differently to wrongly configured DNS, it might just be coincidence that the other list isn't having the same trouble. It might also be that it is having the same trouble, but with far less recipients.

Peter Shute

From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Jul 28 04:33:32 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 11:33:32 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] emails from mailman rejected with error
 "reject=550 Relaying denied. IP name possibly forged"
In-Reply-To: <BLU436-SMTP40BC2046F6EA0204DD409482FA0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB121-W26C610DFC01855881DF00782FC0@phx.gbl>
 <877g2zoevb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <BLU436-SMTP40BC2046F6EA0204DD409482FA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <87y4vemcub.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Abdullah AL-Maskari writes:

 > I will look at the spam filter configurations and my DNS but I dont see 
 > how any of those systems could be broken if the original mailman server 
 > is working fine.

It's not a question of whether something is broken; something is.  The
fact that your own logs record that your mailhost "may be forged"
proves that.  The questions are what it is, and whether this breakage
is causing you problems.[1]  If you have another Mailman host that works,
you can check for differences in their configurations (including the
list memberships!), as well as any aspects of the mailhost
configuration that might treat them differently.  But I still think it
would be a good idea to configure your mailhost so that in the DNS it
looks like a responsible citizen rather than a 'bot sending spam.

It occurs to me that the DNS problem may be that your HELO hostname
(in the SMTP transaction) doesn't match the reverse lookup for the IP
observed in the TCP connection.  That should be easy to fix in the
Sendmail configuration.

As for spam filters, it's probably not your spam filters that are
rejecting your mail, it's filters on the recipient hosts.  It's hard
to tell from the log, though.


Footnotes: 
[1]  You'll have to figure those out for yourself because you've
redacted all useful information about your network.  That's entirely
up to you, of course, and it's more secure.  But if you insist on
security, you're going to have to take our wild guesses seriously.


From pshute at nuw.org.au  Mon Jul 28 05:47:40 2014
From: pshute at nuw.org.au (Peter Shute)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 13:47:40 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] emails from mailman rejected with error
 "reject=550 Relaying denied. IP name possibly forged"
In-Reply-To: <87y4vemcub.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <DUB121-W26C610DFC01855881DF00782FC0@phx.gbl>
 <877g2zoevb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <BLU436-SMTP40BC2046F6EA0204DD409482FA0@phx.gbl>
 <87y4vemcub.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C3AB0@nuwvicms2>

 Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> It occurs to me that the DNS problem may be that your HELO 
> hostname (in the SMTP transaction) doesn't match the reverse 
> lookup for the IP observed in the TCP connection.  That 
> should be easy to fix in the Sendmail configuration.

That sounds like something similar to what happened to us when someone decided they'd reconfigure our mail server to send from a different ip address than we receive mail on. 

We got away with it for a long time, but as more recipients installed spam filters (this was a few years ago), we began to see more bounces when we sent mail. Fixed by setting up reverse lookup for the sending address.

Peter Shute

From al.maskari at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 29 16:58:02 2014
From: al.maskari at hotmail.com (Abdullah Maskari)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 18:58:02 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] emails from mailman rejected with error
 "reject=550 Relaying denied. IP name possibly forged"
In-Reply-To: <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C3AB0@nuwvicms2>
References: <DUB121-W26C610DFC01855881DF00782FC0@phx.gbl>,
 <877g2zoevb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>,
 <BLU436-SMTP40BC2046F6EA0204DD409482FA0@phx.gbl>,
 <87y4vemcub.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>,
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C3AB0@nuwvicms2>
Message-ID: <DUB121-W361924F679BE8B3B7ED29182F80@phx.gbl>

So it seems that my problem is that my mailman server attempts to 
communicate with mailhost through mailhost's outward facing IP rather 
than through its internal network IP, I have added an entry for mailhost 
in the hosts file but sendmail still insists on communicating with 
mailhost through mailhost's external IP. I am not sure how to change 
this behaviour.

Abdullah
> From: pshute at nuw.org.au
> To: stephen at xemacs.org; al.maskari at hotmail.com
> CC: mailman-users at python.org
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 13:47:40 +1000
> Subject: RE: [Mailman-Users] emails from mailman rejected with error "reject=550 Relaying denied. IP name possibly forged"
> 
> 
>  Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> > It occurs to me that the DNS problem may be that your HELO 
> > hostname (in the SMTP transaction) doesn't match the reverse 
> > lookup for the IP observed in the TCP connection.  That 
> > should be easy to fix in the Sendmail configuration.
> 
> That sounds like something similar to what happened to us when someone decided they'd reconfigure our mail server to send from a different ip address than we receive mail on. 
> 
> We got away with it for a long time, but as more recipients installed spam filters (this was a few years ago), we began to see more bounces when we sent mail. Fixed by setting up reverse lookup for the sending address.
> 
> Peter Shute
 		 	   		  

From k.vernon at ntta.com  Tue Jul 29 16:50:57 2014
From: k.vernon at ntta.com (Kyle Vernon)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 14:50:57 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Erroneous results with Find_member
Message-ID: <6913F96032C2E2439AFFDBBD575F8F9901DFB5B6@ITWEGFCLST29002>

This probably isn't the forum for questions, and I've submitted a request to join the user mailing list, however, I'm in a bit of a time pinch and would like to know if you guys have seen this before and if so, what might be the cause.

When I run the find_members script natively on the mailman box I get this result:
root at mbox1:/opt/mailman/bin# ./find_member -w k.vernon at ntta.com<mailto:k.vernon at ntta.com>
k.vernon at ntta.com<mailto:k.vernon at ntta.com> found in:
     billinglist
     dbdev2-notice (as owner)
     it_storage
     it_storage (as owner)
     san_notify (as owner)
     itlist
     dbdev1-notice (as owner)
     db1-notice (as owner)
     ccrb
     mailman
     mailman (as owner)
     nttadallas
     db2-notice (as owner)
     peoplesoftlist
     shap-notice
     shap-notice (as owner)
     it_unix
     it_unix (as owner)
     hardwaremaint
     scan_results
     db3-notice (as owner)
     it_dns
     it_dns (as owner)
     it_server (as owner)
     ntta-corporate
     it_backup
     it_backup (as owner)
     page_unix (as owner)
     ilom_alerts
     ilom_alerts (as owner)
     zmanda
     zmanda (as owner)

But when I run it from inside a script, I get totally different results:

##################################################################
##                   NOTE NOTE NOTE NOTE                        ##
##           This part of script produces erroneous             ##
##                  results.  Do NOT trust                      ##
##################################################################

#SSH to mbox1 and run /opt/mailman/bin/find_member

USERNAME=kyle
HOST=mbox1.it.ntta.com
SCRIPT="op mailmanscripts /opt/mailman/bin/find_member -w ${2} "
ssh -o StrictHostkeyChecking=no -l ${USERNAME} ${HOST} "${SCRIPT}"

cas-webomerrors at verio.net<mailto:cas-webomerrors at verio.net> found in:
     webomusers
k.vernon at ntta.com<mailto:k.vernon at ntta.com> found in:
     ccrb
     it_storage
     mailman
     ntta-corporate
     shap-notice
     it_backup
     it_unix
     hardwaremaint
     billinglist
     nttadallas
     peoplesoftlist
     itlist
     ilom_alerts
     scan_results
     it_dns
     zmanda

Kyle A. Vernon
IT Systems and Storage Professional
NTT America
1950 N Stemmons Fwy, #2001
Dallas, TX  75207
214-800-7519 office
903-879-1360 cell


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From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Jul 30 07:51:52 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2014 14:51:52 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] emails from mailman rejected with error
 "reject=550 Relaying denied. IP name possibly forged"
In-Reply-To: <DUB121-W361924F679BE8B3B7ED29182F80@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB121-W26C610DFC01855881DF00782FC0@phx.gbl>
 <877g2zoevb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <BLU436-SMTP40BC2046F6EA0204DD409482FA0@phx.gbl>
 <87y4vemcub.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <C2F1879073AE7347BAB44065F143E170017E3C3AB0@nuwvicms2>
 <DUB121-W361924F679BE8B3B7ED29182F80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <87k36vmm13.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Abdullah Maskari writes:

 > So it seems that my problem is that my mailman server attempts to 
 > communicate with mailhost through mailhost's outward facing IP rather 
 > than through its internal network IP,

Aha!  I'll have to remember that, I wouldn't be surprised if it comes
up again.

 > I have added an entry for mailhost  in the hosts file

This is generally not recommended.  Most systems nowadays are
configured to use the nameservers whenever possible, and only fall
back to hosts when no nameserver can be contacted.  Although you can
change that priority (if you have write access to the appropriate
configuration, often /etc/host.conf), this isn't recommended either as
hosts is often untouched for years and easily becomes out of date and
inaccurate.

 > but sendmail still insists on communicating with mailhost through
 > mailhost's external IP.  I am not sure how to change this
 > behaviour.

First let me say this is way out of scope for this list.

That said, I can think of a couple of ways of addressing the
situation.

My first suggestion is that you give the outgoing (*internal* IP) and
incoming (*external* IP) SMTP gateways different names even if they're
implemented on the same host.  Then when your site expands enough to
need a more powerful host, or separate hosts to service incoming and
outgoing traffic, you just add the new host, change the DNS, and all
your internal mail goes to the right place, ditto external mail, and
nobody cares how your mail system works, it Just Works.

Second, you probably want internal hosts to be unable to see the
external gateway and vice versa, so you may want to run two name
servers, one (outside) which only knows about your hosts that provide
public services (like web and mailservers, and is configured to return
their external addresses), and one (inside) which knows about your
internal network, but doesn't know about your public hosts (at least,
not their public IP addresses and names), and recurses to your ISP's
nameserver (*not* your "outside" nameserver!) for "remote" sites.

If the first suggestion is impossible for some reason, you could
reconfigure to give the hosts file precedence.  (The suggestion about
two nameservers is optional if you're careful enough about firewalls,
and don't care if names and internal network details leak.)

You should also look at your working list server and see how its
configuration differs from this one.  If you used the hosts file dodge
on that one, then probably it is configured to give hosts precedence
over DNS.  My suggestion is to separate the DNS entries for outgoing
and incoming and to change that one too.

Steve


From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Jul 30 08:59:14 2014
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2014 15:59:14 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Erroneous results with Find_member
In-Reply-To: <6913F96032C2E2439AFFDBBD575F8F9901DFB5B6@ITWEGFCLST29002>
References: <6913F96032C2E2439AFFDBBD575F8F9901DFB5B6@ITWEGFCLST29002>
Message-ID: <87fvhjmiwt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Kyle Vernon writes:

 > When I run the find_members script natively on the mailman box I get this result:
 > root at mbox1:/opt/mailman/bin# ./find_member -w k.vernon at ntta.com<mailto:k.vernon at ntta.com>

Are you root when you ssh from the other box:

 > SCRIPT="op mailmanscripts /opt/mailman/bin/find_member -w ${2} "
 > ssh -o StrictHostkeyChecking=no -l ${USERNAME} ${HOST} "${SCRIPT}"

?  (I guess that's what "op" is for, but gotta check.)  I don't think
these scripts should depend on CWD, but you could try cd'ing before
running the script.