From tandrews at grok.co.za  Tue Dec  1 10:37:31 2009
From: tandrews at grok.co.za (Thomas Andrews)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 11:37:31 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] web interface permissions ?
Message-ID: <4B14E3DB.3080304@grok.co.za>

Hi,

On a newly installed mailman setup, the "Submit All Data" button has no 
effect in the page "Tend to pending moderator requests". It doesn't 
matter if I select 'Accept' 'Reject' or 'Discard', the effect is the 
same - nothing.

On other admin pages I can do anything I want - add users, change 
defaults, etc, etc...

I'm wondering if this is a permissions issue?

I've checked /var/log/apache/* and /var/log/mailman/* plus the usual 
syslog files for errors, and I can't see anything obviously wrong.

This is pretty much a standard debian install with two lists: one 
'mailman' list and another.

I'm using mailman with Exim and had to make some small changes as 
suggested in the docs to get it to work, and the SMTP side of it seems 
to be perfectly fine - I just can't do things like discarding messages 
from non-members.

dpkg -l mailman gives me this:

ii  mailman  1:2.1.12-3     Powerful, web-based mailing list manager

Running "check_perms" gives me lots of permissions errors, but it was 
like that before I touched any of the config files, so I'm wondering if 
anyone else has had to fix this problem to get the mailman deb to work 
properly.

Many thanks,
Thomas

From kristo at no-log.org  Tue Dec  1 04:32:18 2009
From: kristo at no-log.org (Kristo)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 04:32:18 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sig file impossible to download
Message-ID: <4B148E42.3000604@no-log.org>

Hi,

I get an error when trying to download
http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/mailman-2.1.12.tgz.sig
it says the source file cant be read...

so I cant check the signature...
Is it an issue?
Thanks a lot,

Chris


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec  1 17:09:27 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 08:09:27 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sig file impossible to download
In-Reply-To: <4B148E42.3000604@no-log.org>
Message-ID: <PC1952009120108092705310e8dc66e@msapiro>

Kristo wrote:
>
>I get an error when trying to download
>http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/mailman-2.1.12.tgz.sig
>it says the source file cant be read...
>
>so I cant check the signature...
>Is it an issue?


There is some problem retrieving these sigs from gnu.org via http. It
may be a browser issue or a web server issue at ftp.gnu.org.

In a quick test,I was unable to download the above URL with several
browsers, but I was able to successfully get it with Opera 10.10 and
also from the command line with both wget and curl.

I was also able to successfully get it with the failing browsers from
<ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/mailman-2.1.12.tgz.sig>

Finally, although no longer listed on the download page at
www.list.org, it is available at
<http://sourceforge.net/projects/mailman/files/>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec  1 17:21:27 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 08:21:27 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] web interface permissions ?
In-Reply-To: <4B14E3DB.3080304@grok.co.za>
Message-ID: <PC195200912010821270093c58fb978@msapiro>

Thomas Andrews wrote:
>
>On a newly installed mailman setup, the "Submit All Data" button has no 
>effect in the page "Tend to pending moderator requests". It doesn't 
>matter if I select 'Accept' 'Reject' or 'Discard', the effect is the 
>same - nothing.
>
>On other admin pages I can do anything I want - add users, change 
>defaults, etc, etc...
>
>I'm wondering if this is a permissions issue?


Possibly, but not too likely.


>I've checked /var/log/apache/* and /var/log/mailman/* plus the usual 
>syslog files for errors, and I can't see anything obviously wrong.
>
>This is pretty much a standard debian install with two lists: one 
>'mailman' list and another.
>
>I'm using mailman with Exim and had to make some small changes as 
>suggested in the docs to get it to work, and the SMTP side of it seems 
>to be perfectly fine - I just can't do things like discarding messages 
>from non-members.
>
>dpkg -l mailman gives me this:
>
>ii  mailman  1:2.1.12-3     Powerful, web-based mailing list manager
>
>Running "check_perms" gives me lots of permissions errors, but it was 
>like that before I touched any of the config files, so I'm wondering if 
>anyone else has had to fix this problem to get the mailman deb to work 
>properly.


You should run 'check_perms -f' as root until the problems are fixed,
but there is one caveat. I think the Debian package installs a number
of symlinks and check_perms doesn't do well with symlinks. It checks
the ownership and mode of the symlink itself and finds a problem. It
then tries to fix the problem, but this fixes the target, not the
symlink. So, it will continue to report problems with the permissions
of the symlink even though there are really no problems.

What happens when you click the "Submit All Data" button? does it
reload the same page or what?

If you look at the page source, what is the action url in the form tag?
Is it correct? Is it something that the web server redirects? Is it
the same as that on the admin pages except for 'admindb' instead of
'admin'?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Tue Dec  1 17:37:40 2009
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 16:37:40 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] web interface permissions ?
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912010821270093c58fb978@msapiro>
References: <4B14E3DB.3080304@grok.co.za>
	<PC195200912010821270093c58fb978@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20091201163740.GZ12363@amyl.org.uk>

On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 08:21:27AM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> You should run 'check_perms -f' as root until the problems are fixed,
> but there is one caveat. I think the Debian package installs a number
> of symlinks and check_perms doesn't do well with symlinks. It checks
> the ownership and mode of the symlink itself and finds a problem. It
> then tries to fix the problem, but this fixes the target, not the
> symlink. So, it will continue to report problems with the permissions
> of the symlink even though there are really no problems.

It does. I keep meaning to write a patch to fix that, as it annoys me
quite a lot.

The symlinks are part of making the package adhere to Debian Policy,
istr.

One of the PPA packagers is onlist (although maybe the dev list), ISTR. 

-- 
``What the bloody hell is the point of 24-hour rolling news
  if it doesn't carry terrifying-lizard-related news?''
  (Anthony Wells, on learning from the web that `a giant
  lizard is terrorising Beirut')

From velvetpixel at gmail.com  Tue Dec  1 18:16:23 2009
From: velvetpixel at gmail.com (Cameron Smith)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:16:23 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using CLI to admin
Message-ID: <edc0e50f0912010916t3fa44e27m7cebd6250b5efa51@mail.gmail.com>

I am tasked with removing a mailman list using CLI on a cpanel install.

When I run the list_lists command in bin I get this:

# python list_lists
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "list_lists", line 44, in ?
    import paths
ImportError: No module named paths


How can I get a list of the lists to then proceed to using rmlist?

Thank you,
Cameron

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec  1 19:11:26 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 10:11:26 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using CLI to admin
In-Reply-To: <edc0e50f0912010916t3fa44e27m7cebd6250b5efa51@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC19520091201101126089036163854@msapiro>

Cameron Smith wrote:

>I am tasked with removing a mailman list using CLI on a cpanel install.
>
>When I run the list_lists command in bin I get this:
>
># python list_lists
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "list_lists", line 44, in ?
>    import paths
>ImportError: No module named paths


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/sYA9>.

Assuming that FAQ is correct about where things are located and cPanel
hasn't broken things too badly, try

/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/bin/list_lists

If that is what you ran, then there is no
/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/bin/paths.py file. That file needs
to be there for any of the /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/bin/
commands to run. If it isn't there, there might be one in
/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/cron which you could copy to
/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/bin/

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From velvetpixel at gmail.com  Tue Dec  1 19:20:21 2009
From: velvetpixel at gmail.com (Cameron Smith)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 10:20:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using CLI to admin
In-Reply-To: <PC19520091201101126089036163854@msapiro>
References: <edc0e50f0912010916t3fa44e27m7cebd6250b5efa51@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC19520091201101126089036163854@msapiro>
Message-ID: <edc0e50f0912011020qa292389ge2f55c4f51af11da@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> Cameron Smith wrote:
>
>>I am tasked with removing a mailman list using CLI on a cpanel install.
>>
>>When I run the list_lists command in bin I get this:
>>
>># python list_lists
>>Traceback (most recent call last):
>> ?File "list_lists", line 44, in ?
>> ? ?import paths
>>ImportError: No module named paths
>
>
> See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/sYA9>.
>
> Assuming that FAQ is correct about where things are located and cPanel
> hasn't broken things too badly, try
>
> /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/bin/list_lists
>
> If that is what you ran, then there is no
> /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/bin/paths.py file. That file needs
> to be there for any of the /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/bin/
> commands to run. If it isn't there, there might be one in
> /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/cron which you could copy to
> /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/bin/
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> ? ? ? ?The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California ? ?better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>

Thank you Mark!

I will check for that file.

From tandrews at grok.co.za  Tue Dec  1 20:46:44 2009
From: tandrews at grok.co.za (Thomas Andrews)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 21:46:44 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] web interface permissions ?
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912010821270093c58fb978@msapiro>
References: <PC195200912010821270093c58fb978@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4B1572A4.2040404@grok.co.za>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Thomas Andrews wrote:
>> On a newly installed mailman setup, the "Submit All Data" button has no 
>> effect in the page "Tend to pending moderator requests". It doesn't 
>> matter if I select 'Accept' 'Reject' or 'Discard', the effect is the 
>> same - nothing.


> What happens when you click the "Submit All Data" button? does it
> reload the same page or what?

Yes, it was

> If you look at the page source, what is the action url in the form tag?
> Is it correct? Is it something that the web server redirects? Is it
> the same as that on the admin pages except for 'admindb' instead of
> 'admin'?

This gave me the solution. The action url was referring to http://... 
but I had apache configured to redirect http to https using

     Redirect 301 / https://bla

Mailman of course didn't know this so it didn't use https://

First I fixed it by turning off the Redirect, and then I re-enabled 
Redirect and changed mm_cfg.py's setting of DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN. I had 
to run this command for it to take effect:

    /usr/lib/mailman/bin/withlist -l -r fix_url

It seems to be working fine now.

Thanks very much for the help!

-Thomas

From jay at splitstreams.com  Tue Dec  1 23:16:04 2009
From: jay at splitstreams.com (Jay Deiman)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 16:16:04 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Footer not being appended to messages in 2.1.10
In-Reply-To: <4AFC463D.2010802@splitstreams.com>
References: <4AFC463D.2010802@splitstreams.com>
Message-ID: <4B1595A4.3070805@splitstreams.com>

Jay Deiman wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> I've been running mailman 2.1.10 on FreeBSD 6.2 for quite some time now 
> and I just recently noticed that the default footer (msg_footer) is not 
> being appended to all the messages.  Is there something else that needs 
> to be set/enabled to turn this on?  I've searched for this problem and 
> I've found nothing so I'm kind of assuming that I'm missing a setting 
> somewhere.

I figured out what was going on here.  This was due to my still using 
the deprecated "Sendmail" DELIVERY_MODULE.  I switched to "SMTPDirect" 
and everything is peachy now.

On a related note, is there any plan to possibly fix/rewrite the 
Sendmail module.  The reason I was using it in the first place is 
because it was much easier in terms of integration with my system since 
using the sendmail binary for outgoing mail bypasses all the post-queue 
content filtering and such that goes on on my server.

On the flipside, setting up SMTPDirect with postfix was just a matter of 
adding an smtpd entry in master.cf that only listens on localhost and 
just permits.  However, it would still be nice to *realistically* have 
an option.

Jay

-- 
Jay Deiman

\033:wq!

From D.Q.A.Theobald at swansea.ac.uk  Wed Dec  2 10:34:43 2009
From: D.Q.A.Theobald at swansea.ac.uk (Damion Theobald)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:34:43 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sibling list setup
Message-ID: <000001ca7332$ad895ca0$089c15e0$@q.a.theobald@swansea.ac.uk>

HI,

 

Could anyone help with the setup of some sibling lists within mailman. I am
having trouble stopping duplicate e-mail to the sibling lists

 

Parent List                                           Sibling Lists

Staff                                                      Research-staff

 
Lecturing-Staff

                                                                Tech

                                                                Staff

 


Research                                             Research-staff

 
Lecturing-Staff

                                                                Grads

                                                                visitors

                                                                

 

Currently when a e-mail is sent  to both the parent lists, staff and
research,  users that are on both Research-Staff and Lecturing-staff receive
the e-mail twice.

 

Any help would be much appreciated

 

Regards

Damion


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec  2 17:07:46 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 08:07:46 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sibling list setup
In-Reply-To: <000001ca7332$ad895ca0$089c15e0$@q.a.theobald@swansea.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <PC195200912020807460328d099e736@msapiro>

Damion Theobald wrote:
>
>Could anyone help with the setup of some sibling lists within mailman. I am
>having trouble stopping duplicate e-mail to the sibling lists


Can you be more specific?

What's in regular_include_lists for each of the involved lists, and how
is the post being addressed?

Also note that if a person is on an included sibling with a
non-identical address - e.g., user at example.com on one list and
user at mail.example.com on another - that person will get a mail to each
address.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From john.m.capps at intel.com  Thu Dec  3 01:16:45 2009
From: john.m.capps at intel.com (Capps, John M)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 16:16:45 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] htdig-mailman patch(es) - blank page results only
	so far
Message-ID: <34D415B755EFAE4D8B827211EAE62CA25DC6A92A@orsmsx506.amr.corp.intel.com>

Hiya Mailman Users,

This list is so trafficked and since this question is mostly regarding the htdig-mailman patches, it took a big puzzle for me to actually sign up and post :)

I am running Mailman 2.1.12 with the following 2.1.12 patches applied (archiver index control/htdig integration)

http://www.openinfo.co.uk/mm/patches/444879/index.html

http://www.openinfo.co.uk/mm/patches/444884/index.html

My method of building and build results were a little rockier than I had hoped for.  I utilize FC10 systems mainly and so I wanted to make an FC12 RPM with the patches.
I found that the 'Fedora way' of building mailman involved a fairly complex set of patches already, and it would be a lot of effort to find out through  relative set of diff and patch to noodle out how to package this in a Fedora manner, so I followed this course of action:

Changed a FC10 mailman 2.1.11 spec to only patch these two patches, removing all Fedora specific patches.
Changed some symlink behavior to preserve the precious /etc/mailman link *to* a /var/lib/mailman/data/sitelist.cfg target (the FC10 makes the symlink the other direction)
Substituted a different init script (the FC10 /etc/init.d/mailman), which does an 'install' of the cron script and then a 'python mailmanctl  -s -q start' to start:

The configure options for the FC10 spec file looks like so (mmdir=/usr/lib/mailman):

./configure --libdir=%{_libdir} --prefix=%{mmdir}  --with-var-prefix=%{varmmdir}   --with-config-dir=%{configdir}  --with-lock-dir=%{lockdir}  --with-log-dir=%{logdir} \
        --with-pid-dir=%{piddir}  --with-queue-dir=%{queuedir}  --with-python=%{__python}   --with-mail-gid=%{mailgroup}  --with-cgi-id=%{cgiuser} \
        --with-cgi-gid=%{cgigroup}  --with-mailhost=localhost.localdomain  --with-urlhost=localhost.localdomain --without-permcheck

So after I got it built I had missed a few things:

The %{mmdir}/archives/htdig folder needed to be created to match my mm_cfg.py goodies:
USE_HTDIG = 1
HTDIG_HTSEARCH_PATH = '/usr/bin/htsearch'
HTDIG_RUNDIG_PATH = '/usr/bin/rundig'
HTDIG_CONF_LINK_DIR = '/var/lib/mailman/archives/htdig'
OWNERS_CAN_DELETE_THEIR_OWN_LISTS = Yes
MTA = 'Postfix'
SHORTCUT_ICON = 'xxxxx.png'
WEB_HEADER_COLOR = '#3399FF'

Then I ran this to create indices (and htdig dbs/symlinks):
#!/bin/bash
LISTS=`ls /var/lib/mailman/lists`
for list in ${LISTS[@]};do
   /usr/lib/mailman/bin/arch $list
done

I made a symlink from /var/www/htdig where FC10 puts htdig (3.2.0-0.3.b6.fc10) common files /usr/share/htdig and added to my VirtualHost Apache definition:
Alias /htdig/ /usr/share/htdig/

Then ran '/usr/bin/python -v /usr/lib/mailman/cron/nightly_htdig'  and great, I was up and had a per list (even private) search form with all my search fields available.

I then went to do a search and all I got back was a blank page, no errors in the mailman log nor the Apache error log.

I tried passing mail through a public and private list to see if that would 'prime the pump' as it were, but to no avail.

Greatly appreciate any insight the group can offer here!

Thanks!
Jeremy Capps



From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec  3 18:25:27 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 09:25:27 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] htdig-mailman patch(es) - blank page results
	onlyso far
In-Reply-To: <34D415B755EFAE4D8B827211EAE62CA25DC6A92A@orsmsx506.amr.corp.intel.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952009120309252704371d34e790@msapiro>

Capps, John M wrote:
>
>I am running Mailman 2.1.12 with the following 2.1.12 patches applied (archiver index control/htdig integration)
>
>http://www.openinfo.co.uk/mm/patches/444879/index.html
>
>http://www.openinfo.co.uk/mm/patches/444884/index.html
>
>My method of building and build results were a little rockier than I had hoped for.  I utilize FC10 systems mainly and so I wanted to make an FC12 RPM with the patches.
>I found that the 'Fedora way' of building mailman involved a fairly complex set of patches already, and it would be a lot of effort to find out through  relative set of diff and patch to noodle out how to package this in a Fedora manner, so I followed this course of action:


I don't know what else there is, but John Dennis' original RedHat FHS
patch is at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2004-October/017343.html>.


>Changed a FC10 mailman 2.1.11 spec to only patch these two patches, removing all Fedora specific patches.
>Changed some symlink behavior to preserve the precious /etc/mailman link *to* a /var/lib/mailman/data/sitelist.cfg target (the FC10 makes the symlink the other direction)


Note that sitelist.cfg is not actually used for anything by Mailman. It
is intended ONLY as suggested input to bin/config_list for configuring
the 'mailman' site list since the default new list configuration is
probably not appropriate for that list.


>Substituted a different init script (the FC10 /etc/init.d/mailman), which does an 'install' of the cron script and then a 'python mailmanctl  -s -q start' to start:
>
>The configure options for the FC10 spec file looks like so (mmdir=/usr/lib/mailman):
>
>./configure --libdir=%{_libdir} --prefix=%{mmdir}  --with-var-prefix=%{varmmdir}   --with-config-dir=%{configdir}  --with-lock-dir=%{lockdir}  --with-log-dir=%{logdir} \
>        --with-pid-dir=%{piddir}  --with-queue-dir=%{queuedir}  --with-python=%{__python}   --with-mail-gid=%{mailgroup}  --with-cgi-id=%{cgiuser} \
>        --with-cgi-gid=%{cgigroup}  --with-mailhost=localhost.localdomain  --with-urlhost=localhost.localdomain --without-permcheck


Some of those config options rely on RedHat patches to configure.


>So after I got it built I had missed a few things:
>
>The %{mmdir}/archives/htdig folder needed to be created to match my mm_cfg.py goodies:
>USE_HTDIG = 1
>HTDIG_HTSEARCH_PATH = '/usr/bin/htsearch'
>HTDIG_RUNDIG_PATH = '/usr/bin/rundig'
>HTDIG_CONF_LINK_DIR = '/var/lib/mailman/archives/htdig'
>OWNERS_CAN_DELETE_THEIR_OWN_LISTS = Yes
>MTA = 'Postfix'
>SHORTCUT_ICON = 'xxxxx.png'
>WEB_HEADER_COLOR = '#3399FF'
>
>Then I ran this to create indices (and htdig dbs/symlinks):
>#!/bin/bash
>LISTS=`ls /var/lib/mailman/lists`
>for list in ${LISTS[@]};do
>   /usr/lib/mailman/bin/arch $list
>done


You probably should have included the --wipe option to bin/arch and a
more robust script is

#!/bin/bash
for list in $(/usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_lists --bare);do
   /usr/lib/mailman/bin/arch --wipe $list
done


>I made a symlink from /var/www/htdig where FC10 puts htdig (3.2.0-0.3.b6.fc10) common files /usr/share/htdig and added to my VirtualHost Apache definition:
>Alias /htdig/ /usr/share/htdig/
>
>Then ran '/usr/bin/python -v /usr/lib/mailman/cron/nightly_htdig'  and great, I was up and had a per list (even private) search form with all my search fields available.
>
>I then went to do a search and all I got back was a blank page, no errors in the mailman log nor the Apache error log.


The action for the search form should be to post to a url like
http://www.example.com/mailman/mmsearch/listname.

If you just go to that URL in a browser, you should get a response like:

------------------------------------------
htdig Archives Access Failure
CGI problem. -5-Field count -4- fields:

If you want to make another attempt to access a list archive then go
via the list users information page.

If this problem persists then please e-mail the following information
to the mailman at example.com:

    Referer not known
    /mailman/mmsearch/listname
------------------------------------------

If that is all working correctly, the problem is in htdig. mmsearch
just sets CONFIG_DIR in the environment to your HTDIG_CONF_LINK_DIR
setting and then opens a pipe to and from the command in your
HTDIG_HTSEARCH_PATH setting, writes the search parameters to the pipe
and reads and displays the result.

It detects a bad status and a null response. It logs a bad status in
Mailman's error log and should display either an error message or the
non-null response.

What happens if you run '/usr/bin/htsearch' by hand?


>I tried passing mail through a public and private list to see if that would 'prime the pump' as it were, but to no avail.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec  3 18:49:43 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 09:49:43 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sig file impossible to download
In-Reply-To: <PC1952009120108092705310e8dc66e@msapiro>
References: <PC1952009120108092705310e8dc66e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4B17FA37.4000407@msapiro.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Kristo wrote:
>>
>>I get an error when trying to download
>>http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/mailman-2.1.12.tgz.sig
>>it says the source file cant be read...
>>
>>so I cant check the signature...
>>Is it an issue?
> 
> 
> There is some problem retrieving these sigs from gnu.org via http. It
> may be a browser issue or a web server issue at ftp.gnu.org.


This was an issue at gnu.org. The problem was that apache was saying the
file was gzip encoded when it wasn't and this resulted in a decoding
error. This has now been fixed, but if you have encountered this error,
it may be necessary to clear your browser's cache before you can
successfully get the file.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From sanchiro at gmail.com  Thu Dec  3 20:30:09 2009
From: sanchiro at gmail.com (Scott Jones)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 12:30:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Site not responding
Message-ID: <d5c086b20912031130g7a2b3f30q3c922dc554f45cb@mail.gmail.com>

I am at work, and unable to ssh to or access the webmin for my site,
running on http://fyrenice.com/mailman/

I am confused why the site doesn't seem to be responding, i.e., it
won't reflect back out if I email to <listname>@fyrenice.com with
'help' in the subject or body. Isn't that supposed to trigger the list
to reply back with instructions, with help information on a specific
site?

At work here I am behind a corporate firewall, so I can't navigate and
connect via http://fyrenice.com/mailman/admin. Strangely enough though
I can connect to the webmin using http://fyrenice.com:<portnumber>/
and I can log in to my router.

Could someone help me understand this behavior?

Thank You,

Scott

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec  3 21:23:30 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 12:23:30 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Site not responding
In-Reply-To: <d5c086b20912031130g7a2b3f30q3c922dc554f45cb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912031223300671d35aa5fd@msapiro>

Scott Jones wrote:

>I am at work, and unable to ssh to or access the webmin for my site,
>running on http://fyrenice.com/mailman/
>
>I am confused why the site doesn't seem to be responding, i.e., it
>won't reflect back out if I email to <listname>@fyrenice.com with
>'help' in the subject or body. Isn't that supposed to trigger the list
>to reply back with instructions, with help information on a specific
>site?
>
>At work here I am behind a corporate firewall, so I can't navigate and
>connect via http://fyrenice.com/mailman/admin. Strangely enough though
>I can connect to the webmin using http://fyrenice.com:<portnumber>/
>and I can log in to my router.
>
>Could someone help me understand this behavior?


Something or things on your server are not working. Someone has to
access the server and find out what's wrong. No one on this list other
than you can do this.

Your server at 75.145.58.209 does not respond to connect requests to
port 80. This probably indicates the web server (apache?) is down

Exim does respond to port 25 connects, so presumably mail is being
delivered to Mailman's queues, but if you get no replies from Mailman,
perhaps there is an outgoing mail issue or one or more of Mailman's
qrinners is not running.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From joey at lombardipublishing.com  Fri Dec  4 16:33:55 2009
From: joey at lombardipublishing.com (Joey Squadrilla)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:33:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman User Question
Message-ID: <750D8155E52946B18F9AC5C669D28A18@FILESERVER>

Hello,

 

Currently a user of your Mailman software, and have one problem that I cant
seem to find an answer to.

 

When we send an email, to some accounts (specifically Hotmail, although
there may be others) an un-subscribe link appears below the header and links
directly back to Mailman. We would like to remove that as our database is
not in-sync with the Mailman list. Can you please provide an answer?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Joey Squadrilla

Web / Graphic Designer

Lombardi Publishing Corporation

 <http://www.lombardipublishing.com> www.lombardipublishing.com

905-856-2022 ext. 229

 


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Dec  5 17:09:48 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 08:09:48 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman User Question
In-Reply-To: <750D8155E52946B18F9AC5C669D28A18@FILESERVER>
Message-ID: <PC19520091205080948070393af996f@msapiro>

Joey Squadrilla wrote:
>
>When we send an email, to some accounts (specifically Hotmail, although
>there may be others) an un-subscribe link appears below the header and links
>directly back to Mailman. We would like to remove that as our database is
>not in-sync with the Mailman list. Can you please provide an answer?


<aside> It is good to know that Microsoft fixed their bug that I
reported over 9 months ago. Their unsubscribe link used to not work
because they didn't correctly interpret List-Unsubscribe: headers with
multiple URLs. </aside>

>From the above, you might deduce that the unsubscribe link is based on
the List-Unsubscribe: header in your list mail. You can remove this
and other List-* headers in your outgoing mail by setting the list's
include_rfc2369_headers attribute to No (on the list admin General
Options page).

However, while removing the headers will remove the list related
actions from MUAs that understand the headers, this will not entirely
solve your problem, as even without the link or button in hotmail,
etc. people will still be able to unsubscribe or change their address
directly via Mailman. No matter what you do, people will always mail
the list asking to be unsubscribed and some will actually figure out
how to unsubscribe themselves via Mailman.

Things you may wish to consider are periodically extracting the list's
membership <http://wiki.list.org/x/aYA9> and syncing your database
with it or setting Privacy options... -> Subscription rules ->
unsubscribe_policy to Yes so unsubscribe requires moderator approval
and then the moderator can update the database when approving
unsubscribes.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From webmaster at tucsongrs.org  Sun Dec  6 06:13:28 2009
From: webmaster at tucsongrs.org (Webmaster)
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 22:13:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about subscription requests
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAGVzbIDf4ItKrPf016Am/kzCgAAAEAAAABIWDuOGMR1GmWdmCrGbGxgBAAAAAA==@tucsongrs.org>

Our users are instructed to send an email to members-subscribe at tucsongrs.org
with their name in the message when they want to subscribe (we are a private
list). I, as the list admin, receive the email that there is a request to be
approved or disapproved but I cannot see their original message.  Is there
some way that I can see their message so I know who the requester is?

 

Thank you


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec  7 04:58:22 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 19:58:22 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about subscription requests
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAGVzbIDf4ItKrPf016Am/kzCgAAAEAAAABIWDuOGMR1GmWdmCrGbGxgBAAAAAA==@tucsongrs.org>
Message-ID: <PC195200912061958220635073f6851@msapiro>

Webmaster wrote:

>Our users are instructed to send an email to members-subscribe at tucsongrs.org
>with their name in the message when they want to subscribe (we are a private
>list). I, as the list admin, receive the email that there is a request to be
>approved or disapproved but I cannot see their original message.  Is there
>some way that I can see their message so I know who the requester is?


If they put their name in the From: header of the message as in

  From: User Name <user at example.com>

the subscription approval will have both their name and email address.

If you want more, or a more reliable way to get the information, change
your instructions to ask them to mail members-owner at tucsongrs.org, and
when you receive that mail, you can add them via admin mass subscribe.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec  7 05:02:52 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 20:02:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question about subscription requests
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912061958220635073f6851@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC195200912062002520197073f66b9@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>If they put their name in the From: header of the message as in
>
>  From: User Name <user at example.com>
>
>the subscription approval will have both their name and email address.


Actually, I see the notice of pending subscription to the admin doesn't
have the 'real name', but it is shown with the pending subscription on
the admindb web interface.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From alexander at nautae.eti.br  Mon Dec  7 16:09:50 2009
From: alexander at nautae.eti.br (alexander at nautae.eti.br)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 08:09:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server skips Mailman
Message-ID: <20091207080950.19455mmnmv4z8akg@www.nautae.eti.br>

Hi.

I have an weird error here.

If I send a message to a list using an email account that "resides" at  
same email server than Mailman, everything works fine.

But if I send a message to a list using a email account from other  
server/domain, I receive an error "Recipient address rejected: User  
unknown in virtual mailbox table".

For example:

1. I have the list.domain.com hosted at machine/server A
2. I have the domain+account alexander at blah.com hosted at same  
machine/server A
3. I send a message to people at list.domain.com using alexander at blah.com. OK
4. I send a message to people at list.domain.com using other at other.com. ERROR
5. the account other at other.com is ok in Mailman (it's not moderated, etc)

So, seems that if I use alexander at blah.com the request goes by  
Mailman, and if not, the request ignores Mailman completely and treat  
people at list.domain.com as an ordinary email address.

And, so, seems to be a postfix configuration problem... but... it's  
hard to me to figure out where is the problem.

Could someone help me?

[]s
Alexander
Brazil

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From CmdrNCDiv at aol.com  Mon Dec  7 14:51:15 2009
From: CmdrNCDiv at aol.com (CmdrNCDiv at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 08:51:15 EST
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Technical Problem/Question
Message-ID: <c42.53b11e63.384e6253@aol.com>

Hello,
 
  I am the moderator of the Telegram List Server.  I recently  tried to get 
into the Telegram Administrative Interface to change my password  and could 
not do it.  I followed the steps below.
 
I used my password on the Telegram Moderator Authentication page which got  
me to the Telegram Administrative Database page.  Once on this page I  
clicked on Telegram Administrative Interface.  Once this page came up I  used 
the same password for the Telegram Administrative Authentication and the  
authorization keeps failing.  
 
Would you set me up a temporary password that works so that I can reset my  
password.  I have no idea why my password works with the Telegram Moderator 
 Authentication but then doesn't work with the Telegram Administration  
Authentication?  Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks,
 
Tom Smith
Moderator
NC Division Commander
Sons of Confederate Veterans

From alexander at nautae.eti.br  Mon Dec  7 16:57:49 2009
From: alexander at nautae.eti.br (alexander at nautae.eti.br)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 08:57:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server skips Mailman - more
Message-ID: <20091207085749.10031hyaha5tu874@www.nautae.eti.br>

Hi again.

Just to give more information:

I'm using postfix-to-mailman script.

And I have my domain in 'add_virtualhost' variable (in the mm_cfg.py file).

I've noticed now that there is a 'virtual-mailman' file at  
/etc/mailman, but I think it's useless because I'm using  
postfix-to-mailman.

If not, should I fill that file with my lists address?

[]s
Alexander
Brazil

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From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Mon Dec  7 17:31:52 2009
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 16:31:52 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Technical Problem/Question
In-Reply-To: <c42.53b11e63.384e6253@aol.com>
References: <c42.53b11e63.384e6253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20091207163151.GE21877@amyl.org.uk>

On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 08:51:15AM -0500, CmdrNCDiv at aol.com wrote:
>   I am the moderator of the Telegram List Server.  I recently  tried to get 
> into the Telegram Administrative Interface to change my password  and could 
> not do it.  I followed the steps below.
>  
> I used my password on the Telegram Moderator Authentication page which got  
> me to the Telegram Administrative Database page.  Once on this page I  
> clicked on Telegram Administrative Interface.  Once this page came up I  used 
> the same password for the Telegram Administrative Authentication and the  
> authorization keeps failing.  

There would appear to be a different password for the admins &
moderators.

> Would you set me up a temporary password that works so that I can reset my  
> password.  I have no idea why my password works with the Telegram Moderator 
>  Authentication but then doesn't work with the Telegram Administration  
> Authentication?  Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks,

None of us on this list can provide a "temporary password" for the
lists (unless one of us hosts the lists for you). You need to contact
the person who manages the list(s).

There are two areas of adminish web-interface /admin and /admindb: the
first being for complete list-admin, the second for handling list
moderation.

For the moderator password to be changed, you should probably contact
the owner of the list (e.g., by mailing
    <listname-owner at lists.example.com>), 
and ask them to sort you out: there may well be other moderators who
will duly need any new moderator's password, too.


-- 
``If we do not conjure up a war into being,
  certainly no one else will do so.''
  (Alfred von Kiderlen-W?chter, German Foreign Minister, 1910)

From alexander at nautae.eti.br  Mon Dec  7 17:33:30 2009
From: alexander at nautae.eti.br (alexander at nautae.eti.br)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 09:33:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server skips Mailman - more II
Message-ID: <20091207093330.38766pbnmm46m9c8@www.nautae.eti.br>

Hi again.

I'm not sure if it makes any difference, but... mailman should resolve  
a subdomain.

I have a contact.enterprise.com subdomain.

And I don't have any list.contact.enterprise.com.

I mean, Mailman should resolve directly the contact.enterprise.com

I have a MX record in enterprise.com DNS server pointing to  
contact.enterprise.com.

And 'contact' machine is where the postfix/mailman is installed.

I still stuck on "User unknown in virtual mailbox table".

And I can't imagine why this error doesn't happen when I'm using an  
account (even from another domain) hosted at the same  
server/machine/postfix.

[]s
Alexander
Brazil

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From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Dec  7 17:53:29 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:53:29 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Technical Problem/Question
In-Reply-To: <c42.53b11e63.384e6253@aol.com>
References: <c42.53b11e63.384e6253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <874oo2u3na.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

CmdrNCDiv at aol.com writes:

 >   I am the moderator of the Telegram List Server.  I recently  tried to get 
 > into the Telegram Administrative Interface to change my password  and could 
 > not do it.  I followed the steps below.

Hi, Tom,

You have posted to the mailman-users at python.org.  This is a list where
operators and moderators of lists on various hosts help each other
with the operation of mailing lists using the Mailman software.
However, we do not provide any list hosting ourselves.  You need to
contact the administrators of the "Telegram" service directly, because
only they have the necessary authority to change passwords on their
host.  We simply do not have the access.

 > I have no idea why my password works with the Telegram Moderator
 > Authentication but then doesn't work with the Telegram
 > Administration Authentication?  Any help would be appreciated.

That is a question I can answer.  In Mailman, moderation and list
administration are separate functions.  Moderators have very
restricted powers, basically to approve or reject posts.  List
administrators are far more powerful, able to view and change members'
subscription settings, even for members who have requested privacy,
for example.  Therefore these have separate passwords, allowing site
administrators to have different security policies for the different
functions.

Depending on site policy, you may be able to set them to be the same,
but you will need to take care to reset both manually; there is
currently no way to configure so that resetting one password
automatically resets the other to the same (new) password.





From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org  Mon Dec  7 17:46:18 2009
From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 16:46:18 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server skips Mailman - more
In-Reply-To: <20091207085749.10031hyaha5tu874@www.nautae.eti.br>
References: <20091207085749.10031hyaha5tu874@www.nautae.eti.br>
Message-ID: <D76869AD7DF0F742866D1573A51430612A9AEA7F07@ELROND.hodgsonfamily.org>

alexander at nautae.eti.br wrote:

>I'm using postfix-to-mailman script.

I had a lot of problems with this and Postfix thinking the users were not known on the domain, causing 5XX bounces.  I think the reason for this is that Postfix does the recipient lookup at the SMTP stage, and doesn't run this script at this time, thus the alias never expands.

I followed the document at:

http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-install/node13.html

Look at the virtual domains section (I didn't initialy use this on Postfix because I only hosted lists at the one domain, and so didn't need multi-domain hosting).

Thanks.
Andrew.

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec  7 18:05:34 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:05:34 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server skips Mailman - more
In-Reply-To: <20091207085749.10031hyaha5tu874@www.nautae.eti.br>
Message-ID: <PC19520091207090534042135a45c47@msapiro>

alexander at nautae.eti.br wrote:
>
>I'm using postfix-to-mailman script.


<rant_warning>
postfix_to_mailman.py is user contributed software which is
'officially' not supported by the GNU Mailman project. Why are you
using it? If you are using it because that's the way your
Debian/Ubuntu/other package installed Mailman, you should be talking
to Debian/Ubuntu/other.

Also, there are Postfix lists for Postfix support. See
<http://www.postfix.org/lists.html>.
</rant_warning>



>And I have my domain in 'add_virtualhost' variable (in the mm_cfg.py file).


This is not going to make any difference to
Postfix/postfix_to_mailman.py.


>I've noticed now that there is a 'virtual-mailman' file at  
>/etc/mailman, but I think it's useless because I'm using  
>postfix-to-mailman.


Whether or not it's used depends on what you've put in Postfix's
main.cf.


My best guess in the dark here is you have MTA='Postfix' in mm_cfg.py
so Mailman is generating list aliases in it's data/aliases file and
you are referencing that file in alias_maps in Postfix main.cf. And,
delivery from local senders is working because it is using these
aliases, not postfix_to_mailman.py.

Then, something is not configured correctly for postfix_to_mailman so
it isn't working, and that's why mail from outside to your (virtual)
lists domain isn't working.

See the documentation at the beginning of the postfix_to_mailman.py
script on how to configure Postfix, or do as Andrew suggests in his
reply and set up the recommended Mailman/Postfix integration and don't
use postfix_to_mailman.py.

And if you wan't further help here or from postfix lists, post the
output from postconf -n and your master.cf changes.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec  7 18:22:05 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:22:05 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server skips Mailman - more II
In-Reply-To: <20091207093330.38766pbnmm46m9c8@www.nautae.eti.br>
Message-ID: <PC195200912070922050609eca651a6@msapiro>

alexander at nautae.eti.br wrote:
>
>I'm not sure if it makes any difference, but... mailman should resolve  
>a subdomain.


Mailman is not a DNS server. It doesn't 'resolve' domains.


>I have a contact.enterprise.com subdomain.
>
>And I don't have any list.contact.enterprise.com.


Actually, even the name server at ns1.enterprise.com has no A or MX
records for either domain, contact.enterprise.com or
lists.contact.enterprise.com.

That raises the issue of how external mail even gets far enough to get
a "Recipient address rejected: User unknown in virtual mailbox table"
error.


>I mean, Mailman should resolve directly the contact.enterprise.com
>
>I have a MX record in enterprise.com DNS server pointing to  
>contact.enterprise.com.


Not that I can see?

dig mx contact.enterprise.com @ns1.enterprise.com

; <<>> DiG 9.3.3rc2 <<>> mx contact.enterprise.com @ns1.enterprise.com
; (1 server found)
;; global options:  printcmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 45783
;; flags: qr aa rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 0

;; QUESTION SECTION:
;contact.enterprise.com.                IN      MX

;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
enterprise.com.         14400   IN      SOA     ns1.enterprise.com.
dnsadmin.ent
erprise.com. 2009111900 3600 1800 2592000 14400

;; Query time: 70 msec
;; SERVER: 65.197.19.32#53(65.197.19.32)
;; WHEN: Mon Dec  7 09:11:



>And 'contact' machine is where the postfix/mailman is installed.
>
>I still stuck on "User unknown in virtual mailbox table".
>
>And I can't imagine why this error doesn't happen when I'm using an  
>account (even from another domain) hosted at the same  
>server/machine/postfix.


If I send mail to local_address at lists.contact.enterprise.com, there
MUST be an MX or an A record in DNS for lists.contact.enterprise.com,
or my MTA doesn't know where to attempt to deliver that mail. It
doesn't 'fall back' to contact.enterprise.com or enterprise.com; it
just gives up. All this has to work before the message will even get
to the server that Mailman is running on.

If the Mailman/Postfix server is contact.enterprise.com, you need an A
record for contact.enterprise.com and an MX record for
lists.contact.enterprise.com giving contact.enterprise.com as the
target. Otherwise, the mail will never get to your server.
Alternatively, you can have just an A record for
lists.contact.enterprise.com giving the IP address of the server.

You don't appear to have any of these DNS records.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From alexander at nautae.eti.br  Mon Dec  7 18:28:04 2009
From: alexander at nautae.eti.br (alexander at nautae.eti.br)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 10:28:04 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server skips Mailman - more II
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912070922050609eca651a6@msapiro>
References: <PC195200912070922050609eca651a6@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20091207102804.24622g2bbkeeiaf4@www.nautae.eti.br>

> Mailman is not a DNS server. It doesn't 'resolve' domains.

Yes, I know.


>> I have a MX record in enterprise.com DNS server pointing to
>> contact.enterprise.com.
> Not that I can see?

My God!

Sorry, I haven't said that the domain 'contact.enterprise.com' is only  
an example in this message.

The real stuff is contato.edem.g12.br

[]s
Alexander
Brazil

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From kremels at kreme.com  Mon Dec  7 18:57:51 2009
From: kremels at kreme.com (LuKreme)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 10:57:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server skips Mailman - more II
In-Reply-To: <20091207093330.38766pbnmm46m9c8@www.nautae.eti.br>
References: <20091207093330.38766pbnmm46m9c8@www.nautae.eti.br>
Message-ID: <D766A0A5-D41D-442D-88DB-38D2F186922D@kreme.com>

On 7-Dec-2009, at 09:33, alexander at nautae.eti.br wrote:
> I have a contact.enterprise.com subdomain.

Please don't use real (or even potentially real) domains when you are trying to obfuscate your own domains. You have three, and ONLY three choices:

1) Use the real domains. In most cases, this is a good choice as it allow people to do things like check your DNS, your rDNS, etc.

2) Use example.com example.org or example.net

3) use a made up domain ending in a made-up non-existing tld. For example, I would have said

> I have a contract.enterprise.tld subdomain.


tld stands for top-level domain and is not a valid tld. If you go with #3 you have to be POSITIVE that the tld you use is not used, potentially used, or under review to be added. .xxx is a terrible choice for these reasons. .tld .moc .example are all reasonable choices

In the example you gave, enterprise.com is a domain name for Enterprise Rent a Car.

-- 
I believe you can joke about anything. -- George Carlin


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec  7 19:01:27 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 10:01:27 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server skips Mailman - more II
In-Reply-To: <20091207102804.24622g2bbkeeiaf4@www.nautae.eti.br>
Message-ID: <PC1952009120710012703122785d093@msapiro>

alexander at nautae.eti.br wrote:
>
>Sorry, I haven't said that the domain 'contact.enterprise.com' is only  
>an example in this message.


Had you used one of the RFC 2606 recommended domains such as
example.com or .invalid, I would have known they were examples only.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From alexander at nautae.eti.br  Mon Dec  7 19:07:03 2009
From: alexander at nautae.eti.br (alexander at nautae.eti.br)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:07:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server skips Mailman - more II
In-Reply-To: <PC1952009120710012703122785d093@msapiro>
References: <PC1952009120710012703122785d093@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20091207110703.27485uo3nb3x0b0o@www.nautae.eti.br>

> Had you used one of the RFC 2606 recommended domains such as
> example.com or .invalid, I would have known they were examples only.

Ok, ok, lesson learned.

Whata shame...

Sorry!

[]s
Alexander
Brazil

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From jlieber at goengineer.com  Mon Dec  7 19:35:23 2009
From: jlieber at goengineer.com (John Lieber)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 12:35:23 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Getting ready to try my first install of mailman on
	OS-X
Message-ID: <49314D57A0408341864E8641BB5285DC7AC42EA655@AUSP01VMBX08.collaborationhost.net>

Beyond my control is that we are not using OS-X Server.

Awaiting a call that will get me access to the machine (remote location) to find out the specifics (Which OS version/etc).  All I know is that it is a Mac Mini.  Very possible it is Tiger (PowerPC)...

So for right now if anyone has any links that I can read up on or hints/tips/suggestions..

Thank you in advance,
Johnathen

From kremels at kreme.com  Mon Dec  7 20:08:24 2009
From: kremels at kreme.com (LuKreme)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 12:08:24 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Pending requests
Message-ID: <2FB67C44-3985-4ED1-9CAC-4360758D7910@kreme.com>


So, my mailinglists are on http://covisp.net/mailman/ and I want them to be on lists.covisp.net, but I can't remember how to change this.

The reason is that the default server for www.covisp.net and covisp.net has changed, but the mail server is still the same machine, and that is the machine that used to be www.covisp.net and the machine that has mailman on it.

I can still access most of the admin interface, except for the pending request section which I am able to see, but I am not able to clear any pending requests because the button redirects to 'http://covisp.net' and that redirects to the webserver that doesn't have mailman on it.


-- 
THERE WAS NO ROMAN GOD NAMED "FARTICUS"
	Bart chalkboard Ep. 5F06


From john.m.capps at intel.com  Mon Dec  7 20:09:24 2009
From: john.m.capps at intel.com (Capps, John M)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 11:09:24 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] htdig-mailman patch(es) - blank page results
 onlyso far
In-Reply-To: <PC1952009120309252704371d34e790@msapiro>
References: <34D415B755EFAE4D8B827211EAE62CA25DC6A92A@orsmsx506.amr.corp.intel.com>
	<PC1952009120309252704371d34e790@msapiro>
Message-ID: <34D415B755EFAE4D8B827211EAE62CA25F5F6A01@orsmsx506.amr.corp.intel.com>

Thanks Mark,

Yeah, the FHS patch is there, and you are indeed correct there are options missing without this PATCH applied, options like lock dir, etc...  Not sure which one may be causing an issue with htdig, but will make the attempt to at least get that patch in conjunction with the indexing and the htdig patch.

Other patches in addition to FHS are (ctypo,selinux,Unicode,privurl,mmcfg,fhsinit).

Thanks for the --wipe and scripting suggestion, seems more appropriate indeed.

The url http://mailmansite.com/mailman/mmsearch/listname does in fact produce the desired result (referrer not known).

<snip>
If that is all working correctly, the problem is in htdig. mmsearch
just sets CONFIG_DIR in the environment to your HTDIG_CONF_LINK_DIR
setting and then opens a pipe to and from the command in your
HTDIG_HTSEARCH_PATH setting, writes the search parameters to the pipe
and reads and displays the result.
...
What happens if you run '/usr/bin/htsearch' by hand?
<snip>

If I run it from bash, specifying a config file with -c in the config directory, it also returns blank results (specifying text format).

Like So: /usr/bin/htsearch -c /var/lib/mailman/archives/htdig/listname.conf
Enter value for words: recentword 
Content-type: text/html

Enter value for format: text
#

Could it be the config file written?

<snip>
database_dir: /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname/htdig
start_url: http://mailmansite.com/mailman/htdig/listname/
limit_urls_to: ${start_url}
local_urls: http://mailmansite.com/mailman/htdig/listname/=/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname/
local_urls_only: true
url_part_aliases: http://mailmansite.com/mailman/htdig/listname/ *mm-htdig*
script_name: http://mailmansite.com/mailman/mmsearch/bta_developers
noindex_end: <!--/htdig_noindex-->
noindex_start: <!--htdig_noindex-->
exclude_urls: /cgi-bin/ .cgi
<snip>
(the following template content seems appropriate)

Well, I might go back to patch fun, but you do seem to have narrowed the problem down to htdig itself... perhaps some way it is creating the dbs?

I notice that the /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname/htdig directory does not have permissions appropriate for the Apache host to access....

Thanks!
Jeremy (John) Capps
Software Engineer
DHG - Consumer Electronics
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark at msapiro.net] 
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 9:25 AM
To: Capps, John M; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] htdig-mailman patch(es) - blank page results onlyso far

Capps, John M wrote:
>
>I am running Mailman 2.1.12 with the following 2.1.12 patches applied (archiver index control/htdig integration)
>
>http://www.openinfo.co.uk/mm/patches/444879/index.html
>
>http://www.openinfo.co.uk/mm/patches/444884/index.html
>
>My method of building and build results were a little rockier than I had hoped for.  I utilize FC10 systems mainly and so I wanted to make an FC12 RPM with the patches.
>I found that the 'Fedora way' of building mailman involved a fairly complex set of patches already, and it would be a lot of effort to find out through  relative set of diff and patch to noodle out how to package this in a Fedora manner, so I followed this course of action:


I don't know what else there is, but John Dennis' original RedHat FHS
patch is at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2004-October/017343.html>.


>Changed a FC10 mailman 2.1.11 spec to only patch these two patches, removing all Fedora specific patches.
>Changed some symlink behavior to preserve the precious /etc/mailman link *to* a /var/lib/mailman/data/sitelist.cfg target (the FC10 makes the symlink the other direction)


Note that sitelist.cfg is not actually used for anything by Mailman. It
is intended ONLY as suggested input to bin/config_list for configuring
the 'mailman' site list since the default new list configuration is
probably not appropriate for that list.


>Substituted a different init script (the FC10 /etc/init.d/mailman), which does an 'install' of the cron script and then a 'python mailmanctl  -s -q start' to start:
>
>The configure options for the FC10 spec file looks like so (mmdir=/usr/lib/mailman):
>
>./configure --libdir=%{_libdir} --prefix=%{mmdir}  --with-var-prefix=%{varmmdir}   --with-config-dir=%{configdir}  --with-lock-dir=%{lockdir}  --with-log-dir=%{logdir} \
>        --with-pid-dir=%{piddir}  --with-queue-dir=%{queuedir}  --with-python=%{__python}   --with-mail-gid=%{mailgroup}  --with-cgi-id=%{cgiuser} \
>        --with-cgi-gid=%{cgigroup}  --with-mailhost=localhost.localdomain  --with-urlhost=localhost.localdomain --without-permcheck


Some of those config options rely on RedHat patches to configure.


>So after I got it built I had missed a few things:
>
>The %{mmdir}/archives/htdig folder needed to be created to match my mm_cfg.py goodies:
>USE_HTDIG = 1
>HTDIG_HTSEARCH_PATH = '/usr/bin/htsearch'
>HTDIG_RUNDIG_PATH = '/usr/bin/rundig'
>HTDIG_CONF_LINK_DIR = '/var/lib/mailman/archives/htdig'
>OWNERS_CAN_DELETE_THEIR_OWN_LISTS = Yes
>MTA = 'Postfix'
>SHORTCUT_ICON = 'xxxxx.png'
>WEB_HEADER_COLOR = '#3399FF'
>
>Then I ran this to create indices (and htdig dbs/symlinks):
>#!/bin/bash
>LISTS=`ls /var/lib/mailman/lists`
>for list in ${LISTS[@]};do
>   /usr/lib/mailman/bin/arch $list
>done


You probably should have included the --wipe option to bin/arch and a
more robust script is

#!/bin/bash
for list in $(/usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_lists --bare);do
   /usr/lib/mailman/bin/arch --wipe $list
done


>I made a symlink from /var/www/htdig where FC10 puts htdig (3.2.0-0.3.b6.fc10) common files /usr/share/htdig and added to my VirtualHost Apache definition:
>Alias /htdig/ /usr/share/htdig/
>
>Then ran '/usr/bin/python -v /usr/lib/mailman/cron/nightly_htdig'  and great, I was up and had a per list (even private) search form with all my search fields available.
>
>I then went to do a search and all I got back was a blank page, no errors in the mailman log nor the Apache error log.


The action for the search form should be to post to a url like
http://www.example.com/mailman/mmsearch/listname.

If you just go to that URL in a browser, you should get a response like:

------------------------------------------
htdig Archives Access Failure
CGI problem. -5-Field count -4- fields:

If you want to make another attempt to access a list archive then go
via the list users information page.

If this problem persists then please e-mail the following information
to the mailman at example.com:

    Referer not known
    /mailman/mmsearch/listname
------------------------------------------

If that is all working correctly, the problem is in htdig. mmsearch
just sets CONFIG_DIR in the environment to your HTDIG_CONF_LINK_DIR
setting and then opens a pipe to and from the command in your
HTDIG_HTSEARCH_PATH setting, writes the search parameters to the pipe
and reads and displays the result.

It detects a bad status and a null response. It logs a bad status in
Mailman's error log and should display either an error message or the
non-null response.

What happens if you run '/usr/bin/htsearch' by hand?


>I tried passing mail through a public and private list to see if that would 'prime the pump' as it were, but to no avail.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From lstone19 at stonejongleux.com  Mon Dec  7 20:25:23 2009
From: lstone19 at stonejongleux.com (Larry Stone)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:25:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Getting ready to try my first install of
 mailman on OS-X
In-Reply-To: <49314D57A0408341864E8641BB5285DC7AC42EA655@AUSP01VMBX08.collaborationhost.net>
References: <49314D57A0408341864E8641BB5285DC7AC42EA655@AUSP01VMBX08.collaborationhost.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.64.0912071319470.81633@albion.stonejongleux.com>

On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, John Lieber wrote:

> Beyond my control is that we are not using OS-X Server.

That is a "good thing". Installing on OS X Client means you do it the 
right way rather than having the Apple dain-bramaged version they include 
with Server.

> Awaiting a call that will get me access to the machine (remote location) 
> to find out the specifics (Which OS version/etc).  All I know is that it 
> is a Mac Mini.  Very possible it is Tiger (PowerPC)...

Well, which version would be good to know. Tiger is actually better than 
Leopard as there is an unresolved issue with Leopard's system startup that 
occasionally causes the Mailman startup to fail.

> So for right now if anyone has any links that I can read up on or 
> hints/tips/suggestions..

I currently have Mailman running on OS X Client and have posted 
installation instructions for both Panther and Tiger as well as notes on 
my upgrade to Leopard.

The Tiger instructions can be found in the archives at:
<http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/msg33402.html>. A 
search will let you find the Panther instructions and Leopard notes if you 
need those.

-- 
Larry Stone
lstone19 at stonejongleux.com
http://www.stonejongleux.com/


------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/lstone19%40stonejongleux.com

-- Larry Stone
    lstone19 at stonejongleux.com

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec  8 00:03:57 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:03:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Pending requests
In-Reply-To: <2FB67C44-3985-4ED1-9CAC-4360758D7910@kreme.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912071503570484746bc25d@msapiro>

LuKreme wrote:
>
>So, my mailinglists are on http://covisp.net/mailman/ and I want them to be on lists.covisp.net, but I can't remember how to change this.


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/gIA9>. Make the mm_cfg.py
changes and run fix_url.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec  8 00:50:02 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:50:02 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] htdig-mailman patch(es) - blank page
	resultsonlyso far
In-Reply-To: <34D415B755EFAE4D8B827211EAE62CA25F5F6A01@orsmsx506.amr.corp.intel.com>
Message-ID: <PC19520091207155002092167aa695b@msapiro>

Capps, John Mwrote:
>
>The url http://mailmansite.com/mailman/mmsearch/listname does in fact produce the desired result (referrer not known).



Just to be clear, it should produce a page like

htdig Archives Access Failure
CGI problem. -5-Field count -4- fields:

If you want to make another attempt to access a list archive then go
via the list users information page.

If this problem persists then please e-mail the following information
to the mailman at example.com:

    Referer not known
    /mailman/mmsearch/listname

It looks like that's what you got. That says at least Mailman's
mmsearch CGI is accessable and probably working.


>If that is all working correctly, the problem is in htdig. mmsearch
>just sets CONFIG_DIR in the environment to your HTDIG_CONF_LINK_DIR
>setting and then opens a pipe to and from the command in your
>HTDIG_HTSEARCH_PATH setting, writes the search parameters to the pipe
>and reads and displays the result.
>...
>What happens if you run '/usr/bin/htsearch' by hand?
><snip>
>
>If I run it from bash, specifying a config file with -c in the config directory, it also returns blank results (specifying text format).


format should be 'short' or 'long'


>Like So: /usr/bin/htsearch -c /var/lib/mailman/archives/htdig/listname.conf
>Enter value for words: recentword 
>Content-type: text/html
>
>Enter value for format: text
>#


What do you get if you enter 'short' instead of 'text'. It probably
doesn't matter. You should get an HTML search results page either way.


>Could it be the config file written?
>
><snip>
>database_dir: /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname/htdig
>start_url: http://mailmansite.com/mailman/htdig/listname/
>limit_urls_to: ${start_url}
>local_urls: http://mailmansite.com/mailman/htdig/listname/=/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname/
>local_urls_only: true
>url_part_aliases: http://mailmansite.com/mailman/htdig/listname/ *mm-htdig*
>script_name: http://mailmansite.com/mailman/mmsearch/bta_developers


I assume bta-developers is what is listname elsewhere


>noindex_end: <!--/htdig_noindex-->
>noindex_start: <!--htdig_noindex-->
>exclude_urls: /cgi-bin/ .cgi
><snip>
>(the following template content seems appropriate)


As does all the above.


>Well, I might go back to patch fun, but you do seem to have narrowed the problem down to htdig itself... perhaps some way it is creating the dbs?


Possibly. Here is the contents of archives/private/mailman/htdig

-rw-rw-r-- 1 mark mailman  24576 Sep 19 03:30 db.docdb
-rw-rw-r-- 1 mark mailman  24576 Sep 19 03:30 db.docs.index
-rw-rw-r-- 1 mark mailman  49152 Sep 19 03:30 db.excerpts
-rw-rw-r-- 1 mark mailman  49152 Sep 19 03:30 db.metaphone.db
-rw-rw-r-- 1 mark mailman  49152 Sep 19 03:30 db.soundex.db
-rw-rw-r-- 1 mark mailman 126976 Sep 19 03:30 db.words.db
-rw-rw-r-- 1 mark mailman  16384 Sep 19 03:30 db.words.db_weakcmpr
-rw-rw-r-- 1 root mailman   2070 Dec 26  2008 mailman.conf
-rw-rw-r-- 1 mark mailman      0 Sep 19 03:30 rundig_last_run

and here is a larger, more active list

-rw-rw-r-- 1 mark mailman 22503424 Dec  7 03:29 db.docdb
-rw-rw-r-- 1 mark mailman  2678784 Dec  7 03:29 db.docs.index
-rw-rw-r-- 1 mark mailman 57622528 Dec  7 03:29 db.excerpts
-rw-rw-r-- 1 mark mailman  5914624 Dec  7 03:30 db.metaphone.db
-rw-rw-r-- 1 mark mailman  5668864 Dec  7 03:30 db.soundex.db
-rw-rw-r-- 1 mark mailman 74221568 Dec  7 03:29 db.words.db
-rw-rw-r-- 1 mark mailman    16384 Dec  7 03:29 db.words.db_weakcmpr
-rw-rw-r-- 1 root mailman     2056 Dec 26  2008 gpc-talk.conf
-rw-rw-r-- 1 mark mailman        0 Dec  7 03:30 rundig_last_run

How to those compare with yours?


>I notice that the /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname/htdig directory does not have permissions appropriate for the Apache host to access....


That's as it should be. The directory should be g+rws and Mailman's
group, because the CGIs that access it are run through SETGID wrappers
that set Mailman's group. This is true of all Mailman's data.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From alexander at nautae.eti.br  Tue Dec  8 10:01:12 2009
From: alexander at nautae.eti.br (alexander at nautae.eti.br)
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 02:01:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server skips Mailman - SOLVED
In-Reply-To: <PC19520091207090534042135a45c47@msapiro>
References: <PC19520091207090534042135a45c47@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20091208020112.18541cxi1r7guin4@www.nautae.eti.br>

>> I'm using postfix-to-mailman script.
> <rant_warning>
> postfix_to_mailman.py is user contributed software which is
> 'officially' not supported by the GNU Mailman project. Why are you
> using it?

Ok, I've changed the approach. I've removed all postfix_to_mailman.py  
stuff, configured the 'normal' way of doing virtual domains with  
Postfix+Mailman and everything is working now.

Thank you very much for your attention!

[]s
Alexander
Brazil - Rio de Janeiro


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From info at localcolorseattle.com  Mon Dec  7 23:26:47 2009
From: info at localcolorseattle.com (Local Color)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 14:26:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Auto delete
Message-ID: <F96DD2999C0B4AB88390809EE6CFC748@FJA>

Is there a way for me as administrator to set up a direct link so those that
want to be deleted from our mailing list can do so?
 
Local Color
1606 Pike Place
Seattle, WA 98101
store  206.728.1717
office 206.285.2014
fax     206.285.2015
www.LocalColorSeattle.com <http://www.localcolorseattle.com/> 
 

From scheidell at secnap.net  Tue Dec  8 15:33:36 2009
From: scheidell at secnap.net (Michael Scheidell)
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 09:33:36 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Auto delete
In-Reply-To: <F96DD2999C0B4AB88390809EE6CFC748@FJA>
References: <F96DD2999C0B4AB88390809EE6CFC748@FJA>
Message-ID: <4B1E63C0.6090503@secnap.net>


http://listserver.hackertrap.net/mailman/options/first-alerts


?

so, its your mailing list server/mailman/options/(mailing list)



Local Color wrote:
> Is there a way for me as administrator to set up a direct link so those that
> want to be deleted from our mailing list can do so?
>  
> Local Color
> 1606 Pike Place
> Seattle, WA 98101
> store  206.728.1717
> office 206.285.2014
> fax     206.285.2015
> www.LocalColorSeattle.com <http://www.localcolorseattle.com/> 
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/scheidell%40secnap.net
>   

-- 
Michael Scheidell, CTO
Phone: 561-999-5000, x 1259
 > *| *SECNAP Network Security Corporation

    * Certified SNORT Integrator
    * 2008-9 Hot Company Award Winner, World Executive Alliance
    * Five-Star Partner Program 2009, VARBusiness
    * Best Anti-Spam Product 2008, Network Products Guide
    * King of Spam Filters, SC Magazine 2008


_________________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned and certified safe by SpammerTrap(r). 
For Information please see http://www.spammertrap.com
_________________________________________________________________________

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec  8 15:55:13 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 06:55:13 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Auto delete
In-Reply-To: <F96DD2999C0B4AB88390809EE6CFC748@FJA>
Message-ID: <PC195200912080655130750c011e8bb@msapiro>

Local Color wrote:

>Is there a way for me as administrator to set up a direct link so those that
>want to be deleted from our mailing list can do so?


Set the list's Non-digest options -> personalize to Yes and add
something like

Unsubscribe: %(user_optionsurl)s

to Non-digest options -> msg_footer

If you don't see the personalization settings on the Non-digest options
page, the site admin will have to add

OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION = Yes

to mm_cfg.py or the site admin can set personalize for your list only
via config_list or withlist.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From dandrews at visi.com  Tue Dec  8 16:12:03 2009
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 09:12:03 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using CLI to admin
In-Reply-To: <PC19520091201101126089036163854@msapiro>
References: <edc0e50f0912010916t3fa44e27m7cebd6250b5efa51@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC19520091201101126089036163854@msapiro>
Message-ID: <auto-000130470841@mailfront2.g2host.com>

At 12:11 PM 12/1/2009, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>Cameron Smith wrote:
>
> >I am tasked with removing a mailman list using CLI on a cpanel install.
> >
> >When I run the list_lists command in bin I get this:
> >
> ># python list_lists
> >Traceback (most recent call last):
> >  File "list_lists", line 44, in ?
> >    import paths
> >ImportError: No module named paths
>
>
>See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/sYA9>.
>
>Assuming that FAQ is correct about where things are located and cPanel
>hasn't broken things too badly, try
>
>/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/bin/list_lists
>
>If that is what you ran, then there is no
>/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/bin/paths.py file. That file needs
>to be there for any of the /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/bin/
>commands to run. If it isn't there, there might be one in
>/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/cron which you could copy to
>/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman/bin/

I believe in cPanel, there is also a button somewhere in the web UI 
to remove a list.

Dave



From bigred414 at verizon.net  Tue Dec  8 16:35:19 2009
From: bigred414 at verizon.net (Loretta G. Kepler)
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:35:19 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] name change
Message-ID: <1260286519.5553.33.camel@loretta-desktop>

How do I change my name on my e-mails?  My name went from Loretta G.
Kepler to Loretta Guglielmino.  I am currently using my maiden mane.
thanks Lori


From ch.kolodziej at web.de  Tue Dec  8 16:49:11 2009
From: ch.kolodziej at web.de (KoloJay)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:49:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Global whitelist for all mailinglists?
Message-ID: <26695911.post@talk.nabble.com>


Hello everybody,

I'm administrating a mailman installation with nearly 20 different
mailinglists. And each mailinglist has it't own whitelist to accept mails
from non members (accept_these_non_members). If I got a new email address
that should be accepted from all lists I have to log in 20 times and to add
this new email address to the whitelist 20 times. That costs much time...

Is there a possiblity to have a global whitlists? Then changes only have to
be made in this one whitelist and then are active in all lists. Maybe anyone
does know a solution?

Best regards
KoloJay
-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Global-whitelist-for-all-mailinglists--tp26695911p26695911.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From tom at comconmedia.com  Wed Dec  9 06:46:38 2009
From: tom at comconmedia.com (TomSherlock)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 21:46:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Can't hide sender of message
Message-ID: <26705496.post@talk.nabble.com>


Hello.

I use Mailman version 2.1.11.cp3.  I have  set to "yes" the option  "Hide
the sender of a message, replacing it with the list address (Removes From,
Sender and Reply-To fields)".

Now subscribers are receiving e-mail from the mailing list and from the
author of the e-mail message.

Any ideas are greatly appreciated.

Thanks, 
Tom
-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Can%27t-hide-sender-of-message-tp26705496p26705496.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From tom at comconmedia.com  Wed Dec  9 06:52:48 2009
From: tom at comconmedia.com (TomSherlock)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 21:52:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Member unable to post to list
Message-ID: <26705499.post@talk.nabble.com>


Hello, 

With Mailman version 2.1.11.cp3 I received the following message for a
message posted by a member of the list:

"Post by non-member to a members-only list"

Any ideas?


Thanks, 
Tom
-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Member-unable-to-post-to-list-tp26705499p26705499.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec  9 16:05:12 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:05:12 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] name change
In-Reply-To: <1260286519.5553.33.camel@loretta-desktop>
Message-ID: <PC1952009120907051206092bce3dad@msapiro>

Loretta G. Kepler wrote:

>How do I change my name on my e-mails?  My name went from Loretta G.
>Kepler to Loretta Guglielmino.  I am currently using my maiden mane.
>thanks Lori


I don't think this is a mailman question. I think you are asking how to
change your name in your mail client (Evolution 2.22.3.1). There is
some options or preferences setting to do this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec  9 16:10:15 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:10:15 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Global whitelist for all mailinglists?
In-Reply-To: <26695911.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952009120907101501562bce3beb@msapiro>

KoloJay wrote:
>
>I'm administrating a mailman installation with nearly 20 different
>mailinglists. And each mailinglist has it't own whitelist to accept mails
>from non members (accept_these_non_members). If I got a new email address
>that should be accepted from all lists I have to log in 20 times and to add
>this new email address to the whitelist 20 times. That costs much time...
>
>Is there a possiblity to have a global whitlists? Then changes only have to
>be made in this one whitelist and then are active in all lists. Maybe anyone
>does know a solution?


Create a list 'listname' which doesn't send passwords or notices and
for which new members are moderated by default and
member_moderation_action is discard. This is your whitelist. Then add
@listname to accept_these_nonmembers of the other lists.

Also, see the script at <http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/non_members>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec  9 16:16:25 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:16:25 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't hide sender of message
In-Reply-To: <26705496.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912090716250765a2b93b96@msapiro>

TomSherlock wrote:
>
>I use Mailman version 2.1.11.cp3.  I have  set to "yes" the option  "Hide
>the sender of a message, replacing it with the list address (Removes From,
>Sender and Reply-To fields)".
>
>Now subscribers are receiving e-mail from the mailing list and from the
>author of the e-mail message.


Do you mean they receive a single message from the list which is From:
both the list and the poster? If so, this is a cPanel issue which we
can't help with. See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/sYA9>.

If on the other hand, you mean they receive two messages, one from the
list which is From: the list and one From: the poster, perhaps the
poster is including some list members in a CC or BCC, or this could
also be a cPanel issue.

In order to say more, we'd have to see the complete headers of both
messages.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From geoff at QuiteLikely.com  Wed Dec  9 16:18:28 2009
From: geoff at QuiteLikely.com (Geoff Shang)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 17:18:28 +0200 (IST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Member unable to post to list
In-Reply-To: <26705499.post@talk.nabble.com>
References: <26705499.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0912091717370.4104@data.home>

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, TomSherlock wrote:

> With Mailman version 2.1.11.cp3 I received the following message for a
> message posted by a member of the list:
>
> "Post by non-member to a members-only list"
>
> Any ideas?

Was their message sent from their subscribed address?  This message 
usually means what it says.

Geoff.


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec  9 16:20:18 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:20:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Member unable to post to list
In-Reply-To: <26705499.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912090720180296963be6fa@msapiro>

TomSherlock wrote:
>
>With Mailman version 2.1.11.cp3 I received the following message for a
>message posted by a member of the list:
>
>"Post by non-member to a members-only list"
>
>Any ideas?


The address the poster sent the message from was not identical (except
for case) to the poster's subscribed address. E.g. user at example.com
vs. user at mail.example.com or user at gmail.com vs. user at googlemail.com.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From terri at zone12.com  Wed Dec  9 16:23:11 2009
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:23:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] name change
In-Reply-To: <PC1952009120907051206092bce3dad@msapiro>
References: <PC1952009120907051206092bce3dad@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4B1FC0DF.1060308@zone12.com>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Loretta G. Kepler wrote: 
>> How do I change my name on my e-mails?  My name went from Loretta G.
>> Kepler to Loretta Guglielmino.  I am currently using my maiden mane.
>> thanks Lori
> I don't think this is a mailman question. I think you are asking how to
> change your name in your mail client (Evolution 2.22.3.1). There is
> some options or preferences setting to do this.

Well, it *could* be a mailman question.  You can change your real name 
in your list options page (e.g. 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users for this list). 
Changing your name in mailman will change which name administrators see 
when they look at your subscription, and the name you see when you log 
in to edit your mailman options.

However, this has no impact on what name will show up in the mails you 
send to the list or elsewhere. As Mark said, you'll need to change that 
in your mail client.

  Terri

From scheidell at secnap.net  Wed Dec  9 16:23:58 2009
From: scheidell at secnap.net (Michael Scheidell)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:23:58 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Member unable to post to list
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912090720180296963be6fa@msapiro>
References: <PC195200912090720180296963be6fa@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4B1FC10E.6010807@secnap.net>



Mark Sapiro wrote:
> TomSherlock wrote:
>   
>> With Mailman version 2.1.11.cp3 I received the following message for a
>> message posted by a member of the list:
>>
>> "Post by non-member to a members-only list"
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>     
>
>
>   
user should subscribe, once per email 'variation', and set all but one 
of the addresses to 'I don't want email'.

> The address the poster sent the message from was not identical (except
> for case) to the poster's subscribed address. E.g. user at example.com
> vs. user at mail.example.com or user at gmail.com vs. user at googlemail.com.
>
>   

-- 
Michael Scheidell, CTO
Phone: 561-999-5000, x 1259
 > *| *SECNAP Network Security Corporation

    * Certified SNORT Integrator
    * 2008-9 Hot Company Award Winner, World Executive Alliance
    * Five-Star Partner Program 2009, VARBusiness
    * Best Anti-Spam Product 2008, Network Products Guide
    * King of Spam Filters, SC Magazine 2008


_________________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned and certified safe by SpammerTrap(r). 
For Information please see http://www.spammertrap.com
_________________________________________________________________________

From scheidell at secnap.net  Wed Dec  9 16:26:08 2009
From: scheidell at secnap.net (Michael Scheidell)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:26:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] tom@ramruva.com vs tom@comconmedia.com [Fwd: Mail
 delivery failed: returning message to sender]
Message-ID: <4B1FC190.8010403@secnap.net>

and, if you are using spf, you need to fix your mail servers.
if you 'transparently' forward without changing 'from' address, you get 
stuff like this.

(because, your forwarded does NOT have permission to send on behalf of 
'secnap.net')


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
Date: 	Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:24:04 -0500
From: 	Mail Delivery System <Mailer-Daemon at a2s44.a2hosting.com>
To: 	scheidell at secnap.net



This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.

A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:

  tom at ramruva.com
    (ultimately generated from tom at comconmedia.com)
    SMTP error from remote mail server after DATA:
    host smtp.secureserver.net [216.69.186.201]: 550 5.7.1 SPF unauthorized mail is prohibited.

------ This is a copy of the message, including all the headers. ------

Return-path: <scheidell at secnap.net>
Received: from mx1.secnap.com.ionspam.net ([204.89.241.253])
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	 Wed, 9 Dec 2009 10:23:58 -0500
Message-ID: <4B1FC10E.6010807 at secnap.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:23:58 -0500
From: Michael Scheidell <scheidell at secnap.net>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: TomSherlock <tom at comconmedia.com>
CC: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Member unable to post to list
References: <PC195200912090720180296963be6fa at msapiro>
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912090720180296963be6fa at msapiro>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------080100040103070106040404"
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Dec 2009 15:23:58.0172 (UTC) FILETIME=[A0A779C0:01CA78E3]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------080100040103070106040404
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Mark Sapiro wrote:
> TomSherlock wrote:
>   
>> With Mailman version 2.1.11.cp3 I received the following message for a
>> message posted by a member of the list:
>>
>> "Post by non-member to a members-only list"
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>     
>
>
>   
user should subscribe, once per email 'variation', and set all but one 
of the addresses to 'I don't want email'.

> The address the poster sent the message from was not identical (except
> for case) to the poster's subscribed address. E.g. user at example.com
> vs. user at mail.example.com or user at gmail.com vs. user at googlemail.com.
>
>   

-- 
Michael Scheidell, CTO
Phone: 561-999-5000, x 1259
 > *| *SECNAP Network Security Corporation

    * Certified SNORT Integrator
    * 2008-9 Hot Company Award Winner, World Executive Alliance
    * Five-Star Partner Program 2009, VARBusiness
    * Best Anti-Spam Product 2008, Network Products Guide
    * King of Spam Filters, SC Magazine 2008


_________________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned and certified safe by SpammerTrap(r). 
For Information please see http://www.spammertrap.com
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--------------080100040103070106040404
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<br>
<br>
Mark Sapiro wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:PC195200912090720180296963be6fa at msapiro"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">TomSherlock wrote:
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">With Mailman version 2.1.11.cp3 I received the following message for a
message posted by a member of the list:

"Post by non-member to a members-only list"

Any ideas?
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->

  </pre>
</blockquote>
user should subscribe, once per email 'variation', and set all but one
of the addresses to 'I don't want email'.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:PC195200912090720180296963be6fa at msapiro"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">The address the poster sent the message from was not identical (except
for case) to the poster's subscribed address. E.g. <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:user at example.com">user at example.com</a>
vs. <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:user at mail.example.com">user at mail.example.com</a> or <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:user at gmail.com">user at gmail.com</a> vs. <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:user at googlemail.com">user at googlemail.com</a>.

  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
Michael Scheidell, CTO<br>
Phone: 561-999-5000, x 1259<br>
<font color="#999999">&gt;</font><font color="#cc0000"> <b>| </b></font>SECNAP
Network Security Corporation
<style type="text/css">
<!--
.unnamed1 {
	margin: 1em;
	padding: 1px;
} -->
</style>
<ul class="unnamed1">
  <li>Certified SNORT Integrator</li>
  <li>2008-9 Hot Company Award Winner, World Executive Alliance</li>
  <li>Five-Star Partner Program 2009, VARBusiness</li>
  <li>Best Anti-Spam Product 2008, Network Products Guide</li>
  <li>King of Spam Filters, SC Magazine 2008</li>
</ul>
</div>

<br>
<div id="disclaimer.secnap.com"><hr>
<p>This email has been scanned and certified safe by SpammerTrap&reg;.
<br />For Information please see
<a href="http://www.spammertrap.com">www.spammertrap.com</a></p>
<hr></div>
<br>
</body>
</html>

--------------080100040103070106040404--


-- 
Michael Scheidell, CTO
Phone: 561-999-5000, x 1259
 > *| *SECNAP Network Security Corporation

    * Certified SNORT Integrator
    * 2008-9 Hot Company Award Winner, World Executive Alliance
    * Five-Star Partner Program 2009, VARBusiness
    * Best Anti-Spam Product 2008, Network Products Guide
    * King of Spam Filters, SC Magazine 2008


_________________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned and certified safe by SpammerTrap(r). 
For Information please see http://www.secnap.com/products/spammertrap/
_________________________________________________________________________
   

From CNulk at scu.edu  Wed Dec  9 16:24:43 2009
From: CNulk at scu.edu (C Nulk)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 07:24:43 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] name change
In-Reply-To: <PC1952009120907051206092bce3dad@msapiro>
References: <PC1952009120907051206092bce3dad@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4B1FC13B.5090009@scu.edu>

For what it is worth, I use Evolution occasionally.  To change how your
name appears in your mail client (Evolution), go to
"Edit->Preferences".  Select your account and click on the "Edit"
button.  Under the "Identity" Tab, change the "Full Name" information to
what you would like to appear in your messages.  Click on "OK", then
close the preferences dialog.  That should do it.  Unless you are using
a totally different Evolution than I am (Evolution v2.12.3).

Chris

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Loretta G. Kepler wrote:
>
>   
>> How do I change my name on my e-mails?  My name went from Loretta G.
>> Kepler to Loretta Guglielmino.  I am currently using my maiden mane.
>> thanks Lori
>>     
>
>
> I don't think this is a mailman question. I think you are asking how to
> change your name in your mail client (Evolution 2.22.3.1). There is
> some options or preferences setting to do this.
>
>   

From cvanders at niu.edu  Wed Dec  9 18:14:03 2009
From: cvanders at niu.edu (Carolyn Vander Schee)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 11:14:03 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listserv question
Message-ID: <4B1F8679.C294.0066.1@niu.edu>

Hello, 

I am wondering if you could help me with a problem I am having regarding a list serv that has recently been set up. 

It seems as though some members of the group are receiving a very messy post (ie., characters do not all turn out and spaces are missing). This, of course, is making it difficult for our members to read. Some members however are receiving the message as it was sent (no problems). 

When I compose the messages, I am careful to take all the formatting out (using word) and then paste the unformatted announcement in my email (novell email). 

Perhaps you could offer a few suggestions. Would it be better, for example, for me to use g-mail to send out the messages?

Many thanks for all your help.
Carolyn

Carolyn Vander Schee, Ph.D.
Northern Illinois University
DeKalb, IL 60115
cvanders at niu.edu
(815) 753-9340
 
 



From tom at comconmedia.com  Wed Dec  9 16:53:44 2009
From: tom at comconmedia.com (TomSherlock)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:53:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Member unable to post to list
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912090720180296963be6fa@msapiro>
References: <26705499.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<PC195200912090720180296963be6fa@msapiro>
Message-ID: <26712521.post@talk.nabble.com>




Mark Sapiro-3 wrote:
> 
> TomSherlock wrote:
>>
>>With Mailman version 2.1.11.cp3 I received the following message for a
>>message posted by a member of the list:
>>
>>"Post by non-member to a members-only list"
>>
>>Any ideas?
> 
> 
> The address the poster sent the message from was not identical (except
> for case) to the poster's subscribed address. E.g. user at example.com
> vs. user at mail.example.com or user at gmail.com vs. user at googlemail.com.
> 
> 

This may or may not be the case.  The post was sent from
subscribed-user at example.com.  This e-mail address
subscribed-user at example.com is subscribed to the mailing list.

However, I did sent the e-mail out of the webmail account of
me at my-personal-domain.com, which allows me to change the value of the FROM
field to subscribed-user at example.com, a different domain.

-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Member-unable-to-post-to-list-tp26705499p26712521.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From tom at comconmedia.com  Wed Dec  9 17:01:39 2009
From: tom at comconmedia.com (TomSherlock)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:01:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't hide sender of message
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912090716250765a2b93b96@msapiro>
References: <26705496.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<PC195200912090716250765a2b93b96@msapiro>
Message-ID: <26712661.post@talk.nabble.com>



Mark Sapiro-3 wrote:
> 
> TomSherlock wrote:
>>
>>I use Mailman version 2.1.11.cp3.  I have  set to "yes" the option  "Hide
>>the sender of a message, replacing it with the list address (Removes From,
>>Sender and Reply-To fields)".
>>
>>Now subscribers are receiving e-mail from the mailing list and from the
>>author of the e-mail message.
> 
> 
> Do you mean they receive a single message from the list which is From:
> both the list and the poster? If so, this is a cPanel issue which we
> can't help with. See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/sYA9>.
> 
> If on the other hand, you mean they receive two messages, one from the
> list which is From: the list and one From: the poster, perhaps the
> poster is including some list members in a CC or BCC, or this could
> also be a cPanel issue.
> 
> In order to say more, we'd have to see the complete headers of both
> messages.
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 

They receive two messages, one from the list and one from the poster.

Here is the header from the poster:

Received: (qmail 11320 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2009 20:44:06 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO m1pismtp01-023.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net)
([10.8.12.26])
          (envelope-sender <angela.evans at bt.com>)
          by smtp26-01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (qmail-1.03) with SMTP
          for <tom at ramruva.com>; 8 Dec 2009 20:44:06 -0000
Received: from a2s47.a2hosting.com ([216.119.128.130])
  by m1pismtp01-023.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net with ESMTP; 08 Dec 2009
13:44:05 -0700
Received: from smtp1.smtp.bt.com ([217.32.164.137])
	by a2s47.a2hosting.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69)
	(envelope-from <angela.evans at bt.com>)
	id 1NI6uh-0004QP-Sv; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:44:04 -0500
Received: from E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.116]) by
smtp1.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959);
	 Tue, 8 Dec 2009 20:43:58 +0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/related;
	type="multipart/alternative";
	boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CA7847.2AAEA169"
Subject: [LSPTA Bulletin 22] Lincoln News- Holiday Boutique Countdown 
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 20:46:39 -0000
Message-ID:
<6A375F4747F4B14EB41AF6728C452AFF058023DF at E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
X-MS-Has-Attach: yes
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 
Thread-Topic: [LSPTA Bulletin 22] Lincoln News- Holiday Boutique Countdown 
Thread-Index: Acp4R4oMftaqBO0+T/+5kewhonrw5w==
From: <angela.evans at bt.com>
To: <bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net>,
	<bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Dec 2009 20:43:58.0913 (UTC)
FILETIME=[2AC64B10:01CA7847]
X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with
any abuse report
X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - a2s47.a2hosting.com
X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - lincolnschoolpta.net
X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12]
X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bt.com
X-Nonspam: Whitelist


Here is the header from the list:

Received: (qmail 22283 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2009 20:44:25 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO p3pismtp01-026.prod.phx3.secureserver.net)
([10.6.12.31])
          (envelope-sender <bulletin-bounces at lincolnschoolpta.net>)
          by smtp29.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (qmail-1.03) with SMTP
          for <tom at ramruva.com>; 8 Dec 2009 20:44:25 -0000
Received: from vms169129pub.verizon.net ([206.46.169.129])
  by p3pismtp01-026.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with ESMTP; 08 Dec 2009
13:44:24 -0700
Received: from a2s47.a2hosting.com ([216.119.128.130])
 by vms169129.mailsrvcs.net
 (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-7.04 (built Sep 26 2008; 32bit))
 with ESMTP id <0KUC00BZOPLQA082 at vms169129.mailsrvcs.net> for
tom at ramruva.com
 (ORCPT tj.sherlock at verizon.net); Tue, 08 Dec 2009 14:44:19 -0600 (CST)
X-Originating-IP: [216.119.128.130]
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=a2s47.a2hosting.com)
	by a2s47.a2hosting.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69)
	(envelope-from <bulletin-bounces at lincolnschoolpta.net>)
	id 1NI6uj-0004So-C7; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:44:05 -0500
Received: from smtp1.smtp.bt.com ([217.32.164.137])	by a2s47.a2hosting.com
with
 esmtp (Exim 4.69)	(envelope-from <angela.evans at bt.com>)
	id 1NI6uh-0004QP-Sv; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:44:04 -0500
Received: from E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.116])
 by	smtp1.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue,
 08 Dec 2009 20:43:58 +0000
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:46:39 +0000
Message-id:

<6A375F4747F4B14EB41AF6728C452AFF058023DF at E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
X-MS-Has-Attach: yes
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
Thread-topic: [LSPTA Bulletin 22] Lincoln News- Holiday Boutique Countdown
Thread-index: Acp4R4oMftaqBO0+T/+5kewhonrw5w==
To: <bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net>,	<bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Dec 2009 20:43:58.0913 (UTC)
	FILETIME=[2AC64B10:01CA7847]
From: Lincoln School PTA Bulletin <bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net>
Subject: [LSPTA Bulletin 23]  Lincoln News- Holiday Boutique Countdown
X-BeenThere: bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11.cp3
Precedence: list
Reply-to: Bulletin-Editor at lincolnschoolpta.net
List-Id: Lincoln School PTA Bulletin
	<bulletin_lincolnschoolpta.net.lincolnschoolpta.net>
List-Unsubscribe:

<http://lincolnschoolpta.net/mailman/options/bulletin_lincolnschoolpta.net>,
	<mailto:bulletin-request at lincolnschoolpta.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive:
 <http://lincolnschoolpta.net/pipermail/bulletin_lincolnschoolpta.net>
List-Post: <mailto:bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net>
List-Help: <mailto:bulletin-request at lincolnschoolpta.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe:

<http://lincolnschoolpta.net/mailman/listinfo/bulletin_lincolnschoolpta.net>,
	<mailto:bulletin-request at lincolnschoolpta.net?subject=subscribe>
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
boundary="===============1080370488203077477=="
Sender: bulletin-bounces at lincolnschoolpta.net
Errors-to: bulletin-bounces at lincolnschoolpta.net
X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse,
 please include it with any abuse report
X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - a2s47.a2hosting.com
X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - verizon.net
X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12]
X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - lincolnschoolpta.net
X-Nonspam: Whitelist


Thanks

-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Can%27t-hide-sender-of-message-tp26705496p26712661.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 10 02:07:50 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 17:07:50 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Member unable to post to list
In-Reply-To: <26712521.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952009120917075000156182a281@msapiro>

TomSherlock wrote:
>
>Mark Sapiro-3 wrote:
>> 
>> TomSherlock wrote:
>>>
>>>With Mailman version 2.1.11.cp3 I received the following message for a
>>>message posted by a member of the list:
>>>
>>>"Post by non-member to a members-only list"
>>>
>>>Any ideas?
>> 
>> 
>> The address the poster sent the message from was not identical (except
>> for case) to the poster's subscribed address. E.g. user at example.com
>> vs. user at mail.example.com or user at gmail.com vs. user at googlemail.com.
>> 
>> 
>
>This may or may not be the case.  The post was sent from
>subscribed-user at example.com.  This e-mail address
>subscribed-user at example.com is subscribed to the mailing list.
>
>However, I did sent the e-mail out of the webmail account of
>me at my-personal-domain.com, which allows me to change the value of the FROM
>field to subscribed-user at example.com, a different domain.


In standard GNU Mailman with defaults as shipped, a post is considered
to be from a member if any of the From: header, the envelope sender,
the Reply-To: header if any or the Sender: header contains a member
address.

If that's not what's happening in your case, see the Mailman cPanel FAQ
at <http://wiki.list.org/x/sYA9> and/or contact whoever hosts your
Mailman.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 10 02:16:31 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 17:16:31 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't hide sender of message
In-Reply-To: <26712661.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952009120917163100461884974d@msapiro>

TomSherlock wrote:
>
>They receive two messages, one from the list and one from the poster.
>
>Here is the header from the poster:
>
>Received: (qmail 11320 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2009 20:44:06 -0000
>Received: from unknown (HELO m1pismtp01-023.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net)
>([10.8.12.26])
>          (envelope-sender <angela.evans at bt.com>)
>          by smtp26-01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (qmail-1.03) with SMTP
>          for <tom at ramruva.com>; 8 Dec 2009 20:44:06 -0000
>Received: from a2s47.a2hosting.com ([216.119.128.130])
>  by m1pismtp01-023.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net with ESMTP; 08 Dec 2009
>13:44:05 -0700
>Received: from smtp1.smtp.bt.com ([217.32.164.137])
>	by a2s47.a2hosting.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69)
>	(envelope-from <angela.evans at bt.com>)
>	id 1NI6uh-0004QP-Sv; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:44:04 -0500
>Received: from E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.116]) by
>smtp1.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959);
>	 Tue, 8 Dec 2009 20:43:58 +0000
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5
>Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: multipart/related;
>	type="multipart/alternative";
>	boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CA7847.2AAEA169"
>Subject: [LSPTA Bulletin 22] Lincoln News- Holiday Boutique Countdown 
>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 20:46:39 -0000
>Message-ID:
><6A375F4747F4B14EB41AF6728C452AFF058023DF at E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
>X-MS-Has-Attach: yes
>X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 
>Thread-Topic: [LSPTA Bulletin 22] Lincoln News- Holiday Boutique Countdown 
>Thread-Index: Acp4R4oMftaqBO0+T/+5kewhonrw5w==
>From: <angela.evans at bt.com>
>To: <bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net>,
>	<bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net>
>X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Dec 2009 20:43:58.0913 (UTC)
>FILETIME=[2AC64B10:01CA7847]
>X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with
>any abuse report
>X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - a2s47.a2hosting.com
>X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - lincolnschoolpta.net
>X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12]
>X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bt.com
>X-Nonspam: Whitelist
>


Please two things about the above message. It contains no Mailman
headers of any kind indicating it didn't come from a Mailman list. It
is addressed To: <bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net>,
	<bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net>

Would <bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net> be an alias for you?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Dec 10 02:40:24 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 10:40:24 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't hide sender of message
In-Reply-To: <26712661.post@talk.nabble.com>
References: <26705496.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<PC195200912090716250765a2b93b96@msapiro>
	<26712661.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <87ws0vr4hj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

TomSherlock writes:

 > They receive two messages, one from the list and one from the poster.
 > 
 > Here is the header from the poster:

Cutting to the chase, from poster, the (relevant, edited) headers are:

 > Received: from a2s47 by m1pismtp01-023
 > Received: from smtp1 by a2s47

>From list:

 > Received: from vms169129pub by p3pismtp01-026
 > Received: from a2s47 by vms169129 for tom at ramruva.com (ORCPT tj.sherlock)
 > Received: from localhost by a2s47
 > Received: from smtp1 by a2s47

First, note the "from localhost" entry in the second series.  This
means that Mailman is reinjecting the message on the same host.  It
doesn't appear in the first series; Mailman did *not* handle that
message, it was relayed *directly to you* by the MTA at a2s47.
Second, apparently the list knows you as "tj.sherlock at verizon", but
it's likely the direct mail was originally addressed to "tom at ramruva".

I would guess that the sender is BCC'ing you (perhaps to help you
identify any problems?)  It's hard to say because I don't know
Microsoft Exchange, but it is quite possible that the mail from the
sender's host is going to multiple recipients (ie, other than the
list) at the point where her MUA injects it.  If there were a single
message to the list only, the first MTA in the chain will often have a
"for mailing-list" clause in the Received header.  Its absence doesn't
prove anything, but certainly leaves open the possibility of multiple
recipients.

A lower probability is that there's a rule or alias at a2s47's MTA
that BCCs you on list mail, again for debugging purposes.
(Coincidentally, yesterday I implemented exactly that feature using
the same MTA (Exim 4) for a list I run, although the purpose was
different.  It's just one line in /etc/aliases.)

As unlikely as that seems, based on the Received chain posted, I would
say a problem with Mailman is even less likely.  I just don't see how
Mailman could be involved with the direct mail.

I'm sorry we can't find a Mailman issue here, in the sense that we
could help you with that.



From kremels at kreme.com  Thu Dec 10 03:23:23 2009
From: kremels at kreme.com (LuKreme)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 19:23:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't hide sender of message
In-Reply-To: <26712661.post@talk.nabble.com>
References: <26705496.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<PC195200912090716250765a2b93b96@msapiro>
	<26712661.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <A2AD0B94-B173-426C-BCC6-9868A77AF2F3@kreme.com>

On 9-Dec-2009, at 09:01, TomSherlock wrote:
> They receive two messages, one from the list and one from the poster.

So you are trying to figure out how Mailman can prevent a third party from mailing a third party?


-- 
The older you get the more you need the people you knew when you
	were young.


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 10 04:41:14 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 19:41:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listserv question
In-Reply-To: <4B1F8679.C294.0066.1@niu.edu>
Message-ID: <PC19520091209194114026592f3e6d7@msapiro>

Carolyn Vander Schee wrote:

>I am wondering if you could help me with a problem I am having regarding a list serv that has recently been set up. 


If you are really asking about a Listserv(r) list, you've come to the
wrong place.

<rant>
I know that use of Listserv(r) as a generic term to refer to an email
list or email list management software is ubiquitious, and I'm just
pissing in the wind to fight it, but Listserv(r) is a registered
trademark[1] owned by the developer of a particular email list
management product, and it shouldn't be used generically.

My personal interest in this is not to protect the Listserv(r)
trademark, but rather to avoid confusing Listserv(r) email list
management software with any other email list management software
including GNU Mailman of which I am a developer.

[1] <http://www.lsoft.com/corporate/trademark.asp>
</rant>


>It seems as though some members of the group are receiving a very messy post (ie., characters do not all turn out and spaces are missing). This, of course, is making it difficult for our members to read. Some members however are receiving the message as it was sent (no problems). 
>
>When I compose the messages, I am careful to take all the formatting out (using word) and then paste the unformatted announcement in my email (novell email). 
>
>Perhaps you could offer a few suggestions. Would it be better, for example, for me to use g-mail to send out the messages?


It is very difficult to know what might be happening without seeing a
sample raw message including all headers and MIME parts.

What I am guessing is happening is your novell email is composing a
multipart/alternative message with text/plain and text/html
alternative parts. Some clients will actually create an HTML message
as you type, paste, etc. and then convert that HTML to plain text for
the text/plain part and some are notoriously bad at converting the
HTML to plain text.

This could be happening in your case such that the text/html part is a
fairly faithful representation of what you entered and the text/plain
alternative is somewhat garbled. Then those users whose mail readers
display the html part see what you entered and others whose mail
readers display the plain text part see the garbled message.

As I said though, this is only a guess, but I can say that if this is
in fact a Mailman list, all regular (non-digest) members are receiving
the same message.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From CNulk at scu.edu  Thu Dec 10 16:43:05 2009
From: CNulk at scu.edu (C Nulk)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 07:43:05 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listserv question
In-Reply-To: <PC19520091209194114026592f3e6d7@msapiro>
References: <PC19520091209194114026592f3e6d7@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4B211709.5060901@scu.edu>

Hello all,

How odd?  I can potentially answer another question.

By "novell email", I am going to guess you are referring to either the
Novell GroupWise client or Novell's GroupWise WebAccess client (email
via the web).

Let's start with the GroupWise client.  Depending on your settings, you
will be sending your message as plain text or as an html message (this
is actually like Mark said - a multipart/alternative message with
text/plain and text/html - and I am simplifying).  It is best to send
your message to Mailman as a plain text message.  To do so with the
client when composing a message, click on "View -> Plain Text" (my
version of the GroupWise client is v7.0.3).  Compose the message and
send it.

As for the GroupWise WebAccess client, I don't know of any way to switch
to plain text - either in the options or while composing a message.  I
would recommend the GroupWise Client.  However, if you must use
WebAccess, I would recommend you save your Word document as a "Plain
text (*.txt)" document first, then open it with Notepad to cut and paste
to the WebAccess compose dialog.  Hopefully, that will strip out any
Word anomalies which may affect your message.

Or, you can do like I do, use a mail client that allows you to chose if
you want to send your message as html, plain text, or both.  I use
Thunderbird, others may use something else.

Chris

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Carolyn Vander Schee wrote:
>
>   
>> I am wondering if you could help me with a problem I am having regarding a list serv that has recently been set up. 
>>     
>
>
> If you are really asking about a Listserv(r) list, you've come to the
> wrong place.
>
> <rant>
> I know that use of Listserv(r) as a generic term to refer to an email
> list or email list management software is ubiquitious, and I'm just
> pissing in the wind to fight it, but Listserv(r) is a registered
> trademark[1] owned by the developer of a particular email list
> management product, and it shouldn't be used generically.
>
> My personal interest in this is not to protect the Listserv(r)
> trademark, but rather to avoid confusing Listserv(r) email list
> management software with any other email list management software
> including GNU Mailman of which I am a developer.
>
> [1] <http://www.lsoft.com/corporate/trademark.asp>
> </rant>
>
>
>   
>> It seems as though some members of the group are receiving a very messy post (ie., characters do not all turn out and spaces are missing). This, of course, is making it difficult for our members to read. Some members however are receiving the message as it was sent (no problems). 
>>
>> When I compose the messages, I am careful to take all the formatting out (using word) and then paste the unformatted announcement in my email (novell email). 
>>
>> Perhaps you could offer a few suggestions. Would it be better, for example, for me to use g-mail to send out the messages?
>>     
>
>
> It is very difficult to know what might be happening without seeing a
> sample raw message including all headers and MIME parts.
>
> What I am guessing is happening is your novell email is composing a
> multipart/alternative message with text/plain and text/html
> alternative parts. Some clients will actually create an HTML message
> as you type, paste, etc. and then convert that HTML to plain text for
> the text/plain part and some are notoriously bad at converting the
> HTML to plain text.
>
> This could be happening in your case such that the text/html part is a
> fairly faithful representation of what you entered and the text/plain
> alternative is somewhat garbled. Then those users whose mail readers
> display the html part see what you entered and others whose mail
> readers display the plain text part see the garbled message.
>
> As I said though, this is only a guess, but I can say that if this is
> in fact a Mailman list, all regular (non-digest) members are receiving
> the same message.
>
>   


From artshow at worldfantasy2009.org  Thu Dec 10 03:42:19 2009
From: artshow at worldfantasy2009.org (World Fantasy 2009 artshow)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 18:42:19 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] listserv question
In-Reply-To: <4B1F8679.C294.0066.1@niu.edu>
References: <4B1F8679.C294.0066.1@niu.edu>
Message-ID: <4B20600B.1040200@worldfantasy2009.org>

Carolyn Vander Schee wrote:

> I am wondering if you could help me with a problem I am having regarding
> a list serv that has recently been set up.

First, a mention that "listserv" is trademark for -another- mailing list 
manager, it's not a generic name for any mailing list manager.

> It seems as though some members of the group are receiving a very messy
> post (ie., characters do not all turn out and spaces are missing). This,
> of course, is making it difficult for our members to read. Some members
> however are receiving the message as it was sent (no problems).

This sort of thing usually isn't a problem with mailman, but rather with the 
sending and receiving mail programs (AKA "mail user agent" or MUA), so 
you're probably better off looking at the MUAs than mailman. That said, to 
get anywhere we'd have to see exactly what they're getting and to know about 
which sending and receiving programs are working properly. Also look at the 
content encoding message headers. If you haven't taken a spin through the 
mailman docs and FAQ, please do so.

> When I compose the messages, I am careful to take all the formatting out
> (using word) and then paste the unformatted announcement in my email
> (novell email).

IMHO ms-word is a terrible tool for removing formatting. Better to use a 
plain text editor (even notepad) and paste from there into groupwise. Also, 
check your GW settings to send only plain text email.

z!

From tom at ramruva.com  Thu Dec 10 06:20:23 2009
From: tom at ramruva.com (TomSherlock)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 21:20:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't hide sender of message
In-Reply-To: <PC1952009120917163100461884974d@msapiro>
References: <26705496.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<PC195200912090716250765a2b93b96@msapiro>
	<26712661.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<PC1952009120917163100461884974d@msapiro>
Message-ID: <26722317.post@talk.nabble.com>



Mark Sapiro-3 wrote:
> 
> 
> Please two things about the above message. It contains no Mailman
> headers of any kind indicating it didn't come from a Mailman list. It
> is addressed To: <bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net>,
> 	<bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net>
> 
> Would <bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net> be an alias for you?
> 
> -- 
> 
> 


Bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net is a subscriber of the mailing list and
the only one able to post to the mailing list.  E-mail sent to
Bulletin-editor is forwarded to my e-mail account. 
Bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net is the mailing list and is managed through
mailman.

Here is the header of the third e-mail.  It looks like it includes list info
and mailman info:

Received: (qmail 11845 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2009 22:28:52 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO p3pismtp01-016.prod.phx3.secureserver.net)
([10.6.12.16])
          (envelope-sender <bulletin-bounces at lincolnschoolpta.net>)
          by smtp18-02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (qmail-1.03) with SMTP
          for <tom at ramruva.com>; 8 Dec 2009 22:28:52 -0000
Received: from a2s47.a2hosting.com ([216.119.128.130])
  by p3pismtp01-016.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with ESMTP; 08 Dec 2009
15:28:52 -0700
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=a2s47.a2hosting.com)
	by a2s47.a2hosting.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69)
	(envelope-from <bulletin-bounces at lincolnschoolpta.net>)
	id 1NI8XM-0008Mx-AG; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:28:04 -0500
Received: from smtp4.smtp.bt.com ([217.32.164.151])
	by a2s47.a2hosting.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69)
	(envelope-from <angela.evans at bt.com>)
	id 1NI8XI-0007S6-Jq; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:28:01 -0500
Received: from E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.116]) by
	smtp4.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 
	Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:27:55 +0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CA7855.B0326989"
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:25:55 -0000
Message-ID:
<6A375F4747F4B14EB41AF6728C452AFF02200439 at E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
X-MS-Has-Attach: yes
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 
Thread-Topic: [LSPTA Bulletin 24]  Lincoln News- Cookie Dough is here!!! 
Thread-Index: Acp4R4oMftaqBO0+T/+5kewhonrw5wADd5PM
References:
<6A375F4747F4B14EB41AF6728C452AFF058023DF at E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
To: <Bulletin-Editor at lincolnschoolpta.net>,
	<bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net>, <bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Dec 2009 22:27:55.0904 (UTC)
	FILETIME=[B04F9800:01CA7855]
From: Lincoln School PTA Bulletin <bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net>
Subject: [LSPTA Bulletin 24]   Lincoln News- Cookie Dough is here!!!
X-BeenThere: bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11.cp3
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Bulletin-Editor at lincolnschoolpta.net
List-Id: Lincoln School PTA Bulletin
	<bulletin_lincolnschoolpta.net.lincolnschoolpta.net>
List-Unsubscribe:
<http://lincolnschoolpta.net/mailman/options/bulletin_lincolnschoolpta.net>,
	<mailto:bulletin-request at lincolnschoolpta.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive:
<http://lincolnschoolpta.net/pipermail/bulletin_lincolnschoolpta.net>
List-Post: <mailto:bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net>
List-Help: <mailto:bulletin-request at lincolnschoolpta.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe:
<http://lincolnschoolpta.net/mailman/listinfo/bulletin_lincolnschoolpta.net>,
	<mailto:bulletin-request at lincolnschoolpta.net?subject=subscribe>
Sender: bulletin-bounces at lincolnschoolpta.net
Errors-To: bulletin-bounces at lincolnschoolpta.net
X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with
any abuse report
X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - a2s47.a2hosting.com
X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ramruva.com
X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12]
X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - lincolnschoolpta.net
X-Nonspam: Whitelist
-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Can%27t-hide-sender-of-message-tp26705496p26722317.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From tom at ramruva.com  Thu Dec 10 06:28:23 2009
From: tom at ramruva.com (TomSherlock)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 21:28:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't hide sender of message
In-Reply-To: <A2AD0B94-B173-426C-BCC6-9868A77AF2F3@kreme.com>
References: <26705496.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<PC195200912090716250765a2b93b96@msapiro>
	<26712661.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<A2AD0B94-B173-426C-BCC6-9868A77AF2F3@kreme.com>
Message-ID: <26722353.post@talk.nabble.com>


No, I am trying use the mailman feature which allows the poster's e-mail to
be shown as coming from the  list, not from the poster.

However, based on the analysis of the others, regular may be getting mixed
in with the mailing list.


LuKreme wrote:
> 
> On 9-Dec-2009, at 09:01, TomSherlock wrote:
>> They receive two messages, one from the list and one from the poster.
> 
> So you are trying to figure out how Mailman can prevent a third party from
> mailing a third party?
> 
> 
> -- 
> The older you get the more you need the people you knew when you
> 	were young.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/lists%40nabble.com
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Can%27t-hide-sender-of-message-tp26705496p26722353.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From tom at ramruva.com  Thu Dec 10 06:30:17 2009
From: tom at ramruva.com (TomSherlock)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 21:30:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't hide sender of message
In-Reply-To: <87ws0vr4hj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <26705496.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<PC195200912090716250765a2b93b96@msapiro>
	<26712661.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<87ws0vr4hj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <26722359.post@talk.nabble.com>




Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm sorry we can't find a Mailman issue here, in the sense that we
> could help you with that.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/lists%40nabble.com
> 
> 


Your reply, Mark's and Michael have definitely helped me to sort this out.
-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Can%27t-hide-sender-of-message-tp26705496p26722359.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 10 18:05:02 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 09:05:02 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't hide sender of message
In-Reply-To: <26722317.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912100905020750abcb99f0@msapiro>

TomSherlock 
>
>Bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net is a subscriber of the mailing list and
>the only one able to post to the mailing list.  E-mail sent to
>Bulletin-editor is forwarded to my e-mail account. 
>Bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net is the mailing list and is managed through
>mailman.


So the original post was sent to both
Bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net and
Bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net. You received a copy of the list post
from the list and you also received the copy of the message that was
sent to Bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net.

If the only copy you received from the list was the one sent from the
list to Bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net, you can suppress this
copy from the list by checking 'nodups' for the
Bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net member on the Membership
Management... -> Membership List page in the list's admin interface or
by setting the "Avoid duplicate copies of messages?" option to Yes on
the user options page for Bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net.


>Here is the header of the third e-mail.  It looks like it includes list info
>and mailman info:


This is a totally different message with different Message-ID and
subject from the ones you posted previously.

This one is addressed to

>To: <Bulletin-Editor at lincolnschoolpta.net>,
>	<bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net>, <bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net>

I.e. it is sent twice to different spellings of
bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net which may account for your have
received 3 copies because MTAs should consider
Bulletin-Editor at lincolnschoolpta.net and
bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net to be separate recipients.


>Received: (qmail 11845 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2009 22:28:52 -0000
>Received: from unknown (HELO p3pismtp01-016.prod.phx3.secureserver.net)
>([10.6.12.16])
>          (envelope-sender <bulletin-bounces at lincolnschoolpta.net>)
>          by smtp18-02.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (qmail-1.03) with SMTP
>          for <tom at ramruva.com>; 8 Dec 2009 22:28:52 -0000
>Received: from a2s47.a2hosting.com ([216.119.128.130])
>  by p3pismtp01-016.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with ESMTP; 08 Dec 2009
>15:28:52 -0700
>Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=a2s47.a2hosting.com)
>	by a2s47.a2hosting.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69)
>	(envelope-from <bulletin-bounces at lincolnschoolpta.net>)
>	id 1NI8XM-0008Mx-AG; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:28:04 -0500
>Received: from smtp4.smtp.bt.com ([217.32.164.151])
>	by a2s47.a2hosting.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69)
>	(envelope-from <angela.evans at bt.com>)
>	id 1NI8XI-0007S6-Jq; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:28:01 -0500
>Received: from E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.116]) by
>	smtp4.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); 
>	Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:27:55 +0000
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5
>Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
>boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CA7855.B0326989"
>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:25:55 -0000
>Message-ID:
><6A375F4747F4B14EB41AF6728C452AFF02200439 at E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
>X-MS-Has-Attach: yes
>X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 
>Thread-Topic: [LSPTA Bulletin 24]  Lincoln News- Cookie Dough is here!!! 
>Thread-Index: Acp4R4oMftaqBO0+T/+5kewhonrw5wADd5PM
>References:
><6A375F4747F4B14EB41AF6728C452AFF058023DF at E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
>To: <Bulletin-Editor at lincolnschoolpta.net>,
>	<bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net>, <bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net>
>X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Dec 2009 22:27:55.0904 (UTC)
>	FILETIME=[B04F9800:01CA7855]
>From: Lincoln School PTA Bulletin <bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net>
>Subject: [LSPTA Bulletin 24]   Lincoln News- Cookie Dough is here!!!
>X-BeenThere: bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net
>X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11.cp3
>Precedence: list
>Reply-To: Bulletin-Editor at lincolnschoolpta.net
>List-Id: Lincoln School PTA Bulletin
>	<bulletin_lincolnschoolpta.net.lincolnschoolpta.net>
>List-Unsubscribe:
><http://lincolnschoolpta.net/mailman/options/bulletin_lincolnschoolpta.net>,
>	<mailto:bulletin-request at lincolnschoolpta.net?subject=unsubscribe>
>List-Archive:
><http://lincolnschoolpta.net/pipermail/bulletin_lincolnschoolpta.net>
>List-Post: <mailto:bulletin at lincolnschoolpta.net>
>List-Help: <mailto:bulletin-request at lincolnschoolpta.net?subject=help>
>List-Subscribe:
><http://lincolnschoolpta.net/mailman/listinfo/bulletin_lincolnschoolpta.net>,
>	<mailto:bulletin-request at lincolnschoolpta.net?subject=subscribe>
>Sender: bulletin-bounces at lincolnschoolpta.net
>Errors-To: bulletin-bounces at lincolnschoolpta.net
>X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with
>any abuse report
>X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - a2s47.a2hosting.com
>X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ramruva.com
>X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12]
>X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - lincolnschoolpta.net
>X-Nonspam: Whitelist
>-- 
>View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Can%27t-hide-sender-of-message-tp26705496p26722317.html
>Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>------------------------------------------------------
>Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/mark%40msapiro.net
-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From bernie at fantasyfarm.com  Thu Dec 10 23:14:08 2009
From: bernie at fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:14:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing the host mailman is running on
Message-ID: <4B212C60.10816.8B0494C@bernie.fantasyfarm.com>

I've been pawing through the docs and the config and I can't quite figure 
out what to do: we recently moved mailman to a new system.  The sysadmin 
got mailman working and it seems OK.  BUT: all the cgi-admin machinery 
has the *old* address [not just the emails, but the list-admin-screens 
internally reference the old server, so if I click on a "submit" it goes 
to the wrong system].

I've looked through the list-config via
  bin/config_list -o - LIST | grep OLDSERVER

and I get no hits at all, so I don't know where the old server's hostname 
is being hidden.  the mm_cfg.ph just does 'fdqn' for the URL_HOST, but 
that seems OK [I think] -- the *admin* [rather than list-specific] links 
seems to correctly poitn to the NEWSERVER.  I don't know where to look 
next... Tnx!!

  /bernie\


-- 
Bernie Cosell                     Fantasy Farm Fibers
mailto:bernie at fantasyfarm.com     Pearisburg, VA
    -->  Too many people, too few sheep  <--       




From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Dec 11 02:15:35 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:15:35 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing the host mailman is running on
In-Reply-To: <4B212C60.10816.8B0494C@bernie.fantasyfarm.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912101715350640fc5a5763@msapiro>

Bernie Cosell wrote:

>I've been pawing through the docs and the config and I can't quite figure 
>out what to do: we recently moved mailman to a new system.  The sysadmin 
>got mailman working and it seems OK.  BUT: all the cgi-admin machinery 
>has the *old* address [not just the emails, but the list-admin-screens 
>internally reference the old server, so if I click on a "submit" it goes 
>to the wrong system].


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/mIA9>.


>I've looked through the list-config via
>  bin/config_list -o - LIST | grep OLDSERVER
>
>and I get no hits at all


There are two attributes. host_name which is in the GUI on the General
Options page and does appear in config_list -o and is the domain that
appears in email addresses and web_page_url which is not in the GUI
and thus doesn't appear in config_list -o and which controls the
initial part of URLs.

The FAQ explains this and what to do about it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Dec 11 03:08:30 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 11:08:30 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't hide sender of message
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912100905020750abcb99f0@msapiro>
References: <26722317.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<PC195200912100905020750abcb99f0@msapiro>
Message-ID: <87aaxqqn35.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > I.e. it is sent twice to different spellings of
 > bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net which may account for your have
 > received 3 copies because MTAs should consider
 > Bulletin-Editor at lincolnschoolpta.net and
 > bulletin-editor at lincolnschoolpta.net to be separate recipients.

>From the "But that's *stupid*" department:

N.As I'm sure Mark knows, distinguishing case in mailboxes is a
deprecated practice, and local mail delivery systems are strongly
encouraged to avoid it.  Nevertheless, the practice *does exist*, and
therefore originating and intermediate MTAs *must* distinguish those
addresses, and forward to all of them.  The originating MTA cannot
know what the ultimate destination's policy is, and it must not guess.


From ekram at escenic.com  Thu Dec 10 19:13:01 2009
From: ekram at escenic.com (ekram)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 01:13:01 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Please Help.
Message-ID: <4B213A2D.4000106@escenic.com>

Hi i am having a problem with mailman migration.
I am able to shift 2.0 to 2.1.5 recently in centOS 3 server.
Everything is working just fine. But the problem is when people using 
reply to from there MUA.
If they use reply to from MUA its assign address xyz at domian.com but it 
should xyz at lists.domain.com
The setting in Defaults.py and mm_cfg.py is according to manual.
Every time people reply to they need to manually change the reply to 
address.
Please help me.

-ekram


From jtodd at digium.com  Thu Dec 10 21:52:24 2009
From: jtodd at digium.com (John Todd)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 12:52:24 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Automatic rejection on message size?
Message-ID: <4E97F305-B2BA-4BD1-9664-410954EB6FFB@digium.com>


Hello -
  I've scoured the wiki, FAQ, and mailing list archives but perhaps  
I'm not using the right keywords... I'm looking to have Mailman  
(2.1.9) automatically reject messages that exceed our pre-set size  
limitation.


  Why?  We have a large number of users who cut/paste debug logs, code  
snippets, SVN output, and all manner of text into their messages.   
These are NOT attachments; they're text in the message body that is  
not MIME encoded.  I manage two dozen or so lists, and every day I get  
at least 10 moderated messages in my to-be-moderated queues that are  
all there because of size overruns.  This gets really tedious, since  
all I do is "Reject" them with a message about their post exceeding  
the size limit.

  I see no obvious way that I can set a list (or the whole system, for  
that matter) to auto-reject with a message based on size of the  
message.  It would actually seem to me that this would be a desirable  
setting to have overall - is there a recipe for modifying the filter/ 
actions so that I can make this happen?  I'm not a python wizard (or  
even neophyte) and I have very little understanding of the internals  
of Mailman at this point, so I'd kindly ask that any hints someone has  
to offer could be worded in a way that is approachable by a skilled  
*NIX admin but not a developer or Mailman wizard.  :-)  Thanks!

JT

---
John Todd                       email:jtodd at digium.com
Digium, Inc. | Asterisk Open Source Community Director
445 Jan Davis Drive NW -  Huntsville AL 35806  -   USA
direct: +1-256-428-6083         http://www.digium.com/




From sunshine.works at gmail.com  Fri Dec 11 01:37:50 2009
From: sunshine.works at gmail.com (Cathe')
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:37:50 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] question about exporting e-mail addreses
Message-ID: <97ca4da40912101637w3a6fdd42v23043dab021cac9d@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, how do I export my list of e-mail addresses out of Mailman?
Thanks so much,
Cathe'

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Dec 11 15:53:39 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:53:39 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] question about exporting e-mail addreses
In-Reply-To: <97ca4da40912101637w3a6fdd42v23043dab021cac9d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912110653390703d8cc8e66@msapiro>

Cathe' wrote:

>Hi, how do I export my list of e-mail addresses out of Mailman?
>Thanks so much,


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/aYA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Dec 11 16:42:12 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 07:42:12 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Please Help.
In-Reply-To: <4B213A2D.4000106@escenic.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952009121107421209847b396fa4@msapiro>

ekram wrote:

>Hi i am having a problem with mailman migration.
>I am able to shift 2.0 to 2.1.5 recently in centOS 3 server.
>Everything is working just fine. But the problem is when people using 
>reply to from there MUA.
>If they use reply to from MUA its assign address xyz at domian.com but it 
>should xyz at lists.domain.com
>The setting in Defaults.py and mm_cfg.py is according to manual.
>Every time people reply to they need to manually change the reply to 
>address.
>Please help me.


It is not clear to me what the issue is. If it is a mailman issue, it
is possible that the list is set (on General Options) to reply to a
fixed address, and the address in incorrect. If so, change it. It is
also possible that the list's host_name attribute (near the bottom of
General Options) is wrong. If so, change that and also see the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/mIA9>.

If neither of the above fixes the problem, then some MTA is probably
rewriting the domain of the To: header in the post. This could be
either a DNS or MTA configuration issue.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Dec 11 16:33:53 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 07:33:53 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Automatic rejection on message size?
In-Reply-To: <4E97F305-B2BA-4BD1-9664-410954EB6FFB@digium.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952009121107335302340d35835f@msapiro>

John Todd wrote:
>
>  I see no obvious way that I can set a list (or the whole system, for  
>that matter) to auto-reject with a message based on size of the  
>message.  It would actually seem to me that this would be a desirable  
>setting to have overall - is there a recipe for modifying the filter/ 
>actions so that I can make this happen?  I'm not a python wizard (or  
>even neophyte) and I have very little understanding of the internals  
>of Mailman at this point, so I'd kindly ask that any hints someone has  
>to offer could be worded in a way that is approachable by a skilled  
>*NIX admin but not a developer or Mailman wizard.  :-)  Thanks!


The various miscellaneous holds including message size are only holds.
There is no setting to reject or discard messages exceeding the size
limit.

If you want to change this, you can do one of two things: You can
modify Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py to reject or discard, or you can add a
custom handler to do the rejection between Moderate and Hold (see
<http://wiki.list.org/x/l4A9>).

Also, if you are going to do this and you also do content filtering, it
is probably a good idea to rearrange the pipeline to put MimeDel
before hold or your custom handler so you are rejecting on the content
filtered size. This can be accomplished by putting the following lines
(comments optional) in mm_cfg.py

#
# Put MimeDel ahead of Hold so "too big" is based on content filtered
# message.
#
GLOBAL_PIPELINE.remove('MimeDel')
GLOBAL_PIPELINE.insert(GLOBAL_PIPELINE.index('Hold'), 'MimeDel')


Making the actions configurable is something that can be considered for
MM 3.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From paul at fpen.org  Fri Dec 11 17:53:57 2009
From: paul at fpen.org (Paul Kleeberg)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 10:53:57 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving lists on one box with several virtual hosts
Message-ID: <32619C4E-A6D3-4389-B2F9-361DE58F5A08@fpen.org>

I have several Mailman lists on one box that has several virtual sites.  I need to move them to a new box and I want to change the web address for users to manage their addresses from virtual1.tld to www.virtual1.tld.  Looking at both config_list and with_list, I do not see a way to do that.  I see how I may assign a domain for the list, but not one that assigns a domain for the web address to the list.

I would not think I needed to do this but whenever I try and access the list page with virtual1.tld it succeeds and it fails with www.virtual1.tld.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Paul
--
Paul Kleeberg
paul at fpen.org



From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Dec 11 19:18:30 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 10:18:30 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving lists on one box with several virtual
	hosts
In-Reply-To: <32619C4E-A6D3-4389-B2F9-361DE58F5A08@fpen.org>
Message-ID: <PC19520091211101830003136a2e5fd@msapiro>

Paul Kleeberg wrote:

>I have several Mailman lists on one box that has several virtual sites.  I need to move them to a new box and I want to change the web address for users to manage their addresses from virtual1.tld to www.virtual1.tld.  Looking at both config_list and with_list, I do not see a way to do that.  I see how I may assign a domain for the list, but not one that assigns a domain for the web address to the list.


What you are missing is the list's hidden web_page_url attribute. See
the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/mIA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From skip at pobox.com  Sat Dec 12 15:26:40 2009
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 08:26:40 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to get relative paths in MM admin/moderator
	links?
Message-ID: <m2vdgcclpb.fsf@montanaro.dyndns.org>


We're running MM 2.1.9 at work.  I noticed much to my chagrin today that
all the links in the admin interface appear to be absolute URLs.  At
work they have this annoying habit of never using the FQDN for hosts, so
our MM machine is just "lists".  I can edit the URL to use the FQDN and
thus get to the website via our VPN, but all the links are still

    http://lists/mailman/...

Is there some way to tell MM to use relative URLs or at least to not
include the http://hostname part?

Thanks,


-- 
Skip Montanaro - skip at pobox.com - http://www.smontanaro.net/

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Dec 12 17:19:46 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 08:19:46 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to get relative paths in MM
	admin/moderatorlinks?
In-Reply-To: <m2vdgcclpb.fsf@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <PC19520091212081946037519ece765@msapiro>

skip at pobox.com wrote:
>
>We're running MM 2.1.9 at work.  I noticed much to my chagrin today that
>all the links in the admin interface appear to be absolute URLs.


Mailman was always intended to use relative href's in the web
interface, but due to a bug , this didn't work in 2.1.x prior to
2.1.12.


>At
>work they have this annoying habit of never using the FQDN for hosts, so
>our MM machine is just "lists".  I can edit the URL to use the FQDN and
>thus get to the website via our VPN, but all the links are still
>
>    http://lists/mailman/...
>
>Is there some way to tell MM to use relative URLs or at least to not
>include the http://hostname part?


Will an http://lists.example.com/mailman/... URL work inside the LAN?
If so, you can set

DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.example.com'

in mm_cfg.py and run fix_url to update the web_page_url attributes of
all the lists so the URLs will be http://lists.example.com/mailman/...

If this won't work, and you can't upgrade to 2.1.12, you may be able to
fix the bug. See
<http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/revision/1154#Mailman/Utils.py>
for the fix.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From skip at pobox.com  Sat Dec 12 17:31:22 2009
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 10:31:22 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to get relative paths in MM
 admin/moderatorlinks?
In-Reply-To: <PC19520091212081946037519ece765@msapiro>
References: <m2vdgcclpb.fsf@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<PC19520091212081946037519ece765@msapiro>
Message-ID: <19235.50522.458000.615343@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Mark> Mailman was always intended to use relative href's in the web
    Mark> interface, but due to a bug , this didn't work in 2.1.x prior to
    Mark> 2.1.12.

Thanks.  I'll see if I can get the powers-that-be to upgrade.

Skip

From paul at fpen.org  Sat Dec 12 18:41:43 2009
From: paul at fpen.org (Paul Kleeberg)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 11:41:43 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Creating aliases for moved lists
Message-ID: <67B2F413-4C27-4C60-86E1-707ADA3C49B4@fpen.org>

I have moved several lists to a new box with virtual domains.  I have moved /archives and /lists, used with_list and fix_url but I remembered something about aliases and looked and saw ~/mailman/data/aliases does not contain the moved lists.  Is that a manual build, a command I should run, or is there something else I can do to merge the two files?

Paul
--
Paul Kleeberg
paul at fpen.org



From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Dec 12 18:58:23 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 09:58:23 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Creating aliases for moved lists
In-Reply-To: <67B2F413-4C27-4C60-86E1-707ADA3C49B4@fpen.org>
Message-ID: <PC195200912120958230203aa51fbe2@msapiro>

Paul Kleeberg wrote:

>I have moved several lists to a new box with virtual domains.  I have moved /archives and /lists, used with_list and fix_url but I remembered something about aliases and looked and saw ~/mailman/data/aliases does not contain the moved lists.  Is that a manual build, a command I should run, or is there something else I can do to merge the two files?


bin/genaliases is what you want.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From paul at fpen.org  Sun Dec 13 15:51:57 2009
From: paul at fpen.org (Paul Kleeberg)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 08:51:57 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help with an error
Message-ID: <2527B22C-C3C1-4014-8BB8-37E32609E17C@fpen.org>

Migrated mailman from one box to another with a slight name change on the virtual hosts.  Ran:

3) bin/withlist -l -r fix_url <listname> -u <www.domain.tld> to fix the web page URLs
4) 'bin/arch --wipe'
5) 'bin/genaliases' to create the alias file.

In attending to a subscription request to a sunsetted list (the request came before the migration) via the web interface, I received an error.  Here is the mailman error log (I have modified e-mail addresses and the domain name):

Dec 13 08:35:55 2009 admin(81221): @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 
admin(81221): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.12rc1 -----] 
admin(81221): [----- Traceback ------] 
admin(81221): Traceback (most recent call last):
admin(81221):   File "/usr/share/mailman/scripts/driver", line 112, in run_main
admin(81221):     main()
admin(81221):   File "/BinaryCache/mailman/mailman-132~28/Root/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py", line 164, in main
admin(81221):   File "/BinaryCache/mailman/mailman-132~28/Root/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py", line 773, in process_form
admin(81221): AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'get'
admin(81221): [----- Python Information -----] 
admin(81221): sys.version     =   2.6.1 (r261:67515, Jul  7 2009, 23:51:51) 
[GCC 4.2.1 (Apple Inc. build 5646)] 
admin(81221): sys.executable  =   /usr/bin/python 
admin(81221): sys.prefix      =   /System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6 
admin(81221): sys.exec_prefix =   /System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6 
admin(81221): sys.path        =   /System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6 
admin(81221): sys.platform    =   darwin 
admin(81221): [----- Environment Variables -----] 
admin(81221): 	HTTP_REFERER: http://www.mydomain.com/mailman/admindb/cds-mneug 
admin(81221): 	VERSIONER_PYTHON_PREFER_32_BIT: no 
admin(81221): 	SERVER_SOFTWARE: Apache/2.2.13 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.2.13 OpenSSL/0.9.8k PHP/5.3.0 
admin(81221): 	SCRIPT_NAME: /mailman/admindb 
admin(81221): 	SERVER_SIGNATURE: <address>Apache/2.2.13 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.2.13 OpenSSL/0.9.8k PHP/5.3.0 Server at www.mydomain.com Port 80</address>
admin(81221): 
admin(81221): 	REQUEST_METHOD: POST 
admin(81221): 	PATH_INFO: /cds-mneug 
admin(81221): 	HTTP_ORIGIN: http://www.mydomain.com 
admin(81221): 	SERVER_PROTOCOL: HTTP/1.1 
admin(81221): 	QUERY_STRING:  
admin(81221): 	CONTENT_LENGTH: 68 
admin(81221): 	HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10_6_2; en-us) AppleWebKit/531.21.8 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.4 Safari/531.21.10 
admin(81221): 	HTTP_CONNECTION: keep-alive 
admin(81221): 	HTTP_COOKIE: cds-mneug+admin=280200000069abfb244b732800000034333533356532663261346266343665306538363832656532373233366562336164363434613735; himss-cpoe+admin=2802000000693ffb244b732800000062393066626336636632356230643436303966616139343438303762323736373235643530616237; __utma=235507584.16807.1171413544.1260036906.1260212869.32; __utmz=235507584.1258473236.29.5.utmcsr=myhq.com|utmccn=(referral)|utmcmd=referral|utmcct=/ 
admin(81221): 	SERVER_NAME: www.mydomain.com 
admin(81221): 	REMOTE_ADDR: 192.168.1.7 
admin(81221): 	PATH_TRANSLATED: /Library/WebServer/mydomain/cds-mneug 
admin(81221): 	SERVER_PORT: 80 
admin(81221): 	SERVER_ADDR: 192.168.1.1 
admin(81221): 	DOCUMENT_ROOT: /Library/WebServer/mydomain 
admin(81221): 	HTTP_X_COLLABORATION_WIKIS: Enabled 
admin(81221): 	PYTHONPATH: /usr/share/mailman 
admin(81221): 	SCRIPT_FILENAME: /usr/share/mailman/cgi-bin/admindb 
admin(81221): 	SERVER_ADMIN: admin at mydomain.com 
admin(81221): 	SCRIPT_URI: http://www.mydomain.com/mailman/admindb/cds-mneug 
admin(81221): 	HTTP_HOST: www.mydomain.com 
admin(81221): 	SCRIPT_URL: /mailman/admindb/cds-mneug 
admin(81221): 	REQUEST_URI: /mailman/admindb/cds-mneug 
admin(81221): 	HTTP_ACCEPT: application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5 
admin(81221): 	GATEWAY_INTERFACE: CGI/1.1 
admin(81221): 	REMOTE_PORT: 54251 
admin(81221): 	HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE: en-us 
admin(81221): 	HTTP_X_COLLABORATION_BLOGS: Enabled 
admin(81221): 	__CF_USER_TEXT_ENCODING: 0x46:0:0 
admin(81221): 	VERSIONER_PYTHON_VERSION: 2.6 
admin(81221): 	CONTENT_TYPE: application/x-www-form-urlencoded 
admin(81221): 	HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING: gzip, deflate 

I am wondering, was this error due to the migration and I do not need to do anything, or is there something else I need to do?

Paul
--
Paul Kleeberg
paul at fpen.org



From opensource at unixoses.com  Sun Dec 13 16:22:55 2009
From: opensource at unixoses.com (Paul)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 10:22:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Creating aliases for moved lists
In-Reply-To: <67B2F413-4C27-4C60-86E1-707ADA3C49B4@fpen.org>
References: <67B2F413-4C27-4C60-86E1-707ADA3C49B4@fpen.org>
Message-ID: <49274.64.49.153.1.1260717775.squirrel@outsideventure.com>

> I have moved several lists to a new box with virtual domains.  I have
> moved /archives and /lists, used with_list and fix_url but I remembered
> something about aliases and looked and saw ~/mailman/data/aliases does not
> contain the moved lists.  Is that a manual build, a command I should run,
> or is there something else I can do to merge the two files?

What I did was to copy/paste the entries in "/etc/mailman/aliases" and
manually input them to "/etc/postfix/virtual".  File location may vary
depending on Linux and MTA version.  It worked well for me anyhow.


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Dec 13 17:11:19 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 08:11:19 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help with an error
In-Reply-To: <2527B22C-C3C1-4014-8BB8-37E32609E17C@fpen.org>
Message-ID: <PC1952009121308111901145db25305@msapiro>

Paul Kleeberg wrote:
>
>In attending to a subscription request to a sunsetted list (the request came before the migration) via the web interface, I received an error.  Here is the mailman error log (I have modified e-mail addresses and the domain name):
>
>Dec 13 08:35:55 2009 admin(81221): @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 
>admin(81221): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.12rc1 -----] 
>admin(81221): [----- Traceback ------] 
>admin(81221): Traceback (most recent call last):
>admin(81221):   File "/usr/share/mailman/scripts/driver", line 112, in run_main
>admin(81221):     main()
>admin(81221):   File "/BinaryCache/mailman/mailman-132~28/Root/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py", line 164, in main
>admin(81221):   File "/BinaryCache/mailman/mailman-132~28/Root/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py", line 773, in process_form
>admin(81221): AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'get'


This is a bug in 2.1.12rc1. Upgrade to 2.1.12 or install the attached
admindb.patch.txt.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From info at certuspersonality.com  Mon Dec 14 12:48:15 2009
From: info at certuspersonality.com (certuspersonality)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:48:15 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mass Removal
Message-ID: <20091214122736.WMJA1743.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@herward-i79lit1.certuspersonality.com>

I am unable to use commands on my server, so I am looking for a way 
to mass-remove all subscribers from a given list.
As I can view all list subscribers on a long screen, the easiest for 
me would be to mark the individual subscribers in the column 'unsub', 
but it would take a long time to this for each member individually.
Is it possible to mark all members in the 'unsub' column in one go?

Herward


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec 14 17:36:18 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 08:36:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mass Removal
In-Reply-To: <20091214122736.WMJA1743.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@herward-i79lit1.certuspersonality.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912140836180375aeb8fb09@msapiro>

certuspersonality wrote:

>I am unable to use commands on my server, so I am looking for a way 
>to mass-remove all subscribers from a given list.
>As I can view all list subscribers on a long screen, the easiest for 
>me would be to mark the individual subscribers in the column 'unsub', 
>but it would take a long time to this for each member individually.
>Is it possible to mark all members in the 'unsub' column in one go?


Absolutely.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Mon Dec 14 17:37:23 2009
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:37:23 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mass Removal
In-Reply-To: <20091214122736.WMJA1743.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@herward-i79lit1.certuspersonality.com>
References: <20091214122736.WMJA1743.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@herward-i79lit1.certuspersonality.com>
Message-ID: <20091214163723.GH3079@amyl.org.uk>

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 09:48:15PM +1000, certuspersonality wrote:
> Is it possible to mark all members in the 'unsub' column in one go?

greasemonkey? A few GM scripts for Mailman have been written: I can't
remember what for, though. Search the list archives for greasemonkey,
perhaps?


-- 
``Treason doth ne'er prosper / And what is the reason?
  If treason should prosper / None dare call it treason.''
  (Glorious-Revolution-era ditty)

From paul at fpen.org  Mon Dec 14 17:39:06 2009
From: paul at fpen.org (Paul Kleeberg)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:39:06 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Distutils is not available or is incomplete for
	/usr/bin/python
Message-ID: <17FB5983-A76A-48C8-9FDB-3901E07B65A0@fpen.org>

I am upgrading a MacOSX 10.5.8 Server with Mailman 2.1.9 to 2.1.12.  In attempting to ./configure mailman, I encounter the following:

Distutils is not available or is incomplete for /usr/bin/python

Here is the version information I have on Python:

Python 2.5.1 (r251:54863, Feb  6 2009, 19:02:12) 
[GCC 4.0.1 (Apple Inc. build 5465)] on darwin

Suggestions on how to proceed?  I have marginal skills.

Paul
--
Paul Kleeberg
paul at fpen.org



From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec 14 20:35:13 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:35:13 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.13rc1 released
Message-ID: <4B269371.2070102@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I am happy to announce the first release candidate of Mailman 2.1.13.

Mailman 2.1.13 is a bug fix release and contains a new localization for
the Asturian language.

Python 2.4 is the minimum supported, but Python 2.5.or 2.6 is recommended.

See the changelog at <https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/2.1.13rc1> for
more details.

Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and
e-newsletters. Mailman is used for all the python.org and
SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.

For more information, please see:

http://www.list.org
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman

Mailman 2.1.13 can be downloaded from

https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/
http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/

Note to translators:

The mailman.pot is up to date in this release and has been merged with
the individual message catalogs. If possible, please review your
translations and submit any changes before December 21 if you want to
get them in the 2.1.13 final release.

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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3jYAnAn/5+SQSPby3c3eG7MJhC187cA6
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From paul at FPEN.ORG  Mon Dec 14 22:29:52 2009
From: paul at FPEN.ORG (Paul Kleeberg)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:29:52 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error running bin/mailmanctl restart
Message-ID: <0BD0A5CC-B4BC-4CA9-BBA0-5C130DCC357C@FPEN.ORG>

In my migration of a MacOS 10.5.8 server from mailman 2.1.9 to 2.1.12, I discovered I had to install Python 2.5.4 and XCode 3.2.1 to get a compiler.  It compiled with the command:

/configure --prefix=/usr/share/mailman --with-cgi-gid=_www --with-mail-gid=mail --with-mailhost=domain.com --with-urlhost=domain.com

But now when I try and run  I get:

server:mailman-2.1.12 paul$ sudo /usr/share/mailman/bin/mailmanctl restart
Restarting Mailman's master qrunner
PID unreadable in: /usr/share/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid
[Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/usr/share/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid'
Is qrunner even running?

I find the .pid file in:

/private/var/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid

Should I be adding something to the configure command?

Paul
--
Paul Kleeberg
paul at fpen.org



From jlieber at goengineer.com  Mon Dec 14 22:46:33 2009
From: jlieber at goengineer.com (John Lieber)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:46:33 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interface domain woes
Message-ID: <49314D57A0408341864E8641BB5285DC7AC43790C0@AUSP01VMBX08.collaborationhost.net>

I nearly complete setting up my new list server however I am running into a problem with the web interface.  The interface is resolving to a different FQDN than what I want.  I have edited the mm_cfg_py and restarted mailman (added DEFAULT_URL_HOST and DEFAULT_MAIL_HOST) and am at a loss as to what to do next....

Thank you in advance,
Johnathen

(Host:  OS X Tiger, Mailman 2.1.11, Postfix)

Postfix resolves to the correct domain and can send/receive emails...

From terri at zone12.com  Mon Dec 14 23:47:26 2009
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:47:26 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mass Removal
In-Reply-To: <20091214163723.GH3079@amyl.org.uk>
References: <20091214122736.WMJA1743.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@herward-i79lit1.certuspersonality.com>
	<20091214163723.GH3079@amyl.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4B26C07E.8000604@zone12.com>

Adam McGreggor wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 09:48:15PM +1000, certuspersonality wrote:
>> Is it possible to mark all members in the 'unsub' column in one go?
> 
> greasemonkey? A few GM scripts for Mailman have been written: I can't
> remember what for, though. Search the list archives for greasemonkey,
> perhaps?

Here's one that should work, although it's not too well tested:

// Begin script
var inputs = document.getElementsByTagName("input");

for (var i=0; i < inputs.length; i++){
	if(inputs[i].type == 'checkbox' &&
		inputs[i].name.indexOf("_unsub") > 0){
		inputs[i].checked = true;
	}
}
// End script

Or if you don't have greasemonkey, here's the same thing as a 
bookmarklet (In Firefox, make a bookmark and set this as the "location")

javascript:function%20unsubAll(){var%20inputs=document.getElementsByTagName("input");for(var%20i=0;i<inputs.length;i++){if(inputs[i].type=='checkbox'&&inputs[i].name.indexOf("_unsub")>0){inputs[i].checked=true;}}}unsubAll();




From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec 14 23:58:45 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:58:45 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interface domain woes
In-Reply-To: <49314D57A0408341864E8641BB5285DC7AC43790C0@AUSP01VMBX08.collaborationhost.net>
Message-ID: <PC1952009121414584500313e87398c@msapiro>

John Lieber wrote:

>I nearly complete setting up my new list server however I am running into a problem with the web interface.  The interface is resolving to a different FQDN than what I want.  I have edited the mm_cfg_py and restarted mailman (added DEFAULT_URL_HOST and DEFAULT_MAIL_HOST) and am at a loss as to what to do next....


Run fux_url?

See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/mIA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From barry at python.org  Tue Dec 15 00:12:15 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:12:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interface domain woes
In-Reply-To: <PC1952009121414584500313e87398c@msapiro>
References: <49314D57A0408341864E8641BB5285DC7AC43790C0@AUSP01VMBX08.collaborationhost.net>
	<PC1952009121414584500313e87398c@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20091214181215.1d4e0878@freewill>

On Dec 14, 2009, at 02:58 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Run fux_url?

Freudian slip? :)

-Barry
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From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 15 00:51:27 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:51:27 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error running bin/mailmanctl restart
In-Reply-To: <0BD0A5CC-B4BC-4CA9-BBA0-5C130DCC357C@FPEN.ORG>
Message-ID: <PC1952009121415512705154a9cd85e@msapiro>

Paul Kleeberg wrote:

>In my migration of a MacOS 10.5.8 server from mailman 2.1.9 to 2.1.12, I discovered I had to install Python 2.5.4 and XCode 3.2.1 to get a compiler.  It compiled with the command:
>
>/configure --prefix=/usr/share/mailman --with-cgi-gid=_www --with-mail-gid=mail --with-mailhost=domain.com --with-urlhost=domain.com
>
>But now when I try and run  I get:
>
>server:mailman-2.1.12 paul$ sudo /usr/share/mailman/bin/mailmanctl restart
>Restarting Mailman's master qrunner
>PID unreadable in: /usr/share/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid
>[Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/usr/share/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid'
>Is qrunner even running?
>
>I find the .pid file in:
>
>/private/var/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid
>
>Should I be adding something to the configure command?


At a minimum. you seem to need 

  --with-var-prefix=/var/mailman

(I think /var is a symlink to /private/var in Mac OS X).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Dec 15 03:25:35 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:25:35 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interface domain woes
In-Reply-To: <20091214181215.1d4e0878@freewill>
References: <49314D57A0408341864E8641BB5285DC7AC43790C0@AUSP01VMBX08.collaborationhost.net>
	<PC1952009121414584500313e87398c@msapiro>
	<20091214181215.1d4e0878@freewill>
Message-ID: <878wd56kio.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Barry Warsaw writes:
 > On Dec 14, 2009, at 02:58 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
 > 
 > >Run fux_url?
 > 
 > Freudian slip? :)

Definite "Typo of the Month" candidate!


From grschmidt at acm.org  Tue Dec 15 12:24:14 2009
From: grschmidt at acm.org (Gary R. Schmidt)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 22:24:14 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interface domain woes
In-Reply-To: <mailman.37.1260874803.21291.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.37.1260874803.21291.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <b5bf0ba0e39826b32b7554f37f8610d0.squirrel@www.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>

On Tue, December 15, 2009 13:25, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Barry Warsaw writes:
>  > On Dec 14, 2009, at 02:58 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>  >
>  > >Run fux_url?
>  >
>  > Freudian slip? :)
>
> Definite "Typo of the Month" candidate!
>
Nah, he's just a closet Kiwi![1]

        Cheers,
                Gary    B-)

1 - New Zealanders, called "Kiwis", have an accent that says "fush and
chups".


From yellowprotoss at gmail.com  Wed Dec 16 03:48:01 2009
From: yellowprotoss at gmail.com (yellow protoss)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 03:48:01 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Management
Message-ID: <c783da440912151848v3725afbfw3000ea03dbd58d2d@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Sir,

I have just subscribed for one list, and would like to do fine tuning. I
would like to change the notification, from daily to instant.

The problem is that the webadmin of our mailing list is not available
anymore. It was few years ago I guess (simply login/paswd).

Maybe you could help me, where is this webpage admin if present.

thank you
Best regards
Y.

From wcook at mycoachonline.com  Wed Dec 16 03:11:22 2009
From: wcook at mycoachonline.com (Wayne Cook)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:11:22 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello List
Message-ID: <F4327A4D-1066-4DDC-BBAD-7B92D8E74167@mycoachonline.com>

Here's my first post to this list :)

I'm setting up a mailing list and I only want the list administrator  
to be able to post messages to the list, can this be set as some kind  
of default setting?

Thanks
Wayne

From dlugasx at googlemail.com  Wed Dec 16 11:55:39 2009
From: dlugasx at googlemail.com (Dlugas X)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:55:39 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sublist ?
Message-ID: <7a7c91970912160255m709401d2h333ad54200143793@mail.gmail.com>

hi all,

     just short question. Is it possible to configure something like sublist
in mailman ?


thanks

dlugasx

From dlugasx at googlemail.com  Wed Dec 16 11:57:05 2009
From: dlugasx at googlemail.com (Dlugas X)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:57:05 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] USENET gateway in mailman
Message-ID: <7a7c91970912160257j36ee0778le801c8da48c411fa@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

      where can I find some informations about usenet gateway in mailman ?


thanks

dlugasx

From marieyvette.ingabire at gmail.com  Wed Dec 16 14:19:43 2009
From: marieyvette.ingabire at gmail.com (Marie Ingabire)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:19:43 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rejected message Archive
Message-ID: <9b32a0810912160519l53d9624fs360a2c2a7a7513b3@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I'm learning how to use mailman mailing list. Still now, everything goes
right. When a moderator refuses that a message can not be delivered, is
there a way to find it in archive?

I only find in archive the messages approved

Thank you and best regards,

Mary

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Wed Dec 16 16:58:24 2009
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:58:24 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello List
In-Reply-To: <F4327A4D-1066-4DDC-BBAD-7B92D8E74167@mycoachonline.com>
References: <F4327A4D-1066-4DDC-BBAD-7B92D8E74167@mycoachonline.com>
Message-ID: <20091216155823.GU3079@amyl.org.uk>

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 08:11:22PM -0600, Wayne Cook wrote:
> Here's my first post to this list :)
> 
> I'm setting up a mailing list and I only want the list administrator  
> to be able to post messages to the list, can this be set as some kind  
> of default setting?

    http://wiki.list.org/x/3YA9 

(searching for "announcement" gave that as the first result)

-- 
"I only can properly enjoy carol services if I am having an
  illicit affair with someone in the congregation. Why is this?
  Perhaps because they are essentially pagan, not Christian, celebrations."
  (Alan Clark's 'Diaries')

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec 16 17:03:06 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:03:06 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Management
In-Reply-To: <c783da440912151848v3725afbfw3000ea03dbd58d2d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912160803060812371ce5f2@msapiro>

yellow protoss wrote:
>
>I have just subscribed for one list, and would like to do fine tuning. I
>would like to change the notification, from daily to instant.


If you mean you want to switch from daily digests to individual
messages, go to the user options page, login and switch. The page is
at a URL like <http://www.example.com/mailman/options/LISTNAME>. There
is a link to the page in your monthly password reminder email.

If you mean you are the list admin/moderator, and you want immediate
notification of held messages and subscription requests, go to the
list admin General Options page and set admin_immed_notify to Yes.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec 16 17:07:43 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:07:43 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello List
In-Reply-To: <F4327A4D-1066-4DDC-BBAD-7B92D8E74167@mycoachonline.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912160807430859db03e946@msapiro>

Wayne Cook wrote:
>
>I'm setting up a mailing list and I only want the list administrator  
>to be able to post messages to the list, can this be set as some kind  
>of default setting?


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/3YA9> for how to set this up.

If you want this to be the default for newly created lists, some of
these settings can be made defaults in the site's mm_cfg.py. See
Defaults.py for the descriptions of the available settings.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Wed Dec 16 17:08:34 2009
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:08:34 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Management
In-Reply-To: <c783da440912151848v3725afbfw3000ea03dbd58d2d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c783da440912151848v3725afbfw3000ea03dbd58d2d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091216160834.GV3079@amyl.org.uk>

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 03:48:01AM +0100, yellow protoss wrote:
> I have just subscribed for one list, and would like to do fine tuning. I
> would like to change the notification, from daily to instant.

If I'm understanding correctly, "admin_immed_notify" is the variable
you would want to change (from 'no' to 'yes')

> The problem is that the webadmin of our mailing list is not available
> anymore. It was few years ago I guess (simply login/paswd).

'admin_immed_notify' is a setting that can be changed via the admin
pages for your list(s). 

If you've not got the admin password, and no-one knows what it is, you
will need to reset the password (or use the site password).

change_pw may be of help -- if you've got shell access to the machine, and
appropriate permissions. If not, the person/organization who hosts the
list will have to reset the password(s) for you.

-- 
``Every public action which is not customary either is wrong, or, if it is
  right, is a dangerous precedent. It follows that nothing should ever be
  done for the first time.'' (Francis Cornford, Microcosmographia Academica)

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec 16 17:10:35 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:10:35 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sublist ?
In-Reply-To: <7a7c91970912160255m709401d2h333ad54200143793@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912160810350125db03e660@msapiro>

Dlugas X wrote:
>
>     just short question. Is it possible to configure something like sublist
>in mailman ?


Maybe, depending on what you mean. Go to the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3> and search for "umbrella".

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Wed Dec 16 17:21:39 2009
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:21:39 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] USENET gateway in mailman
In-Reply-To: <7a7c91970912160257j36ee0778le801c8da48c411fa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7a7c91970912160257j36ee0778le801c8da48c411fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B290913.8020101@riverviewtech.net>

On 12/16/09 04:57, Dlugas X wrote:
> where can I find some informations about usenet gateway in mailman ?

I've run the gateway for quite a while, what are you wanting to know?

(I'm sure there is some documentation, I'm just not sure where it is.)



Grant. . . .

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec 16 17:23:36 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:23:36 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rejected message Archive
In-Reply-To: <9b32a0810912160519l53d9624fs360a2c2a7a7513b3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912160823360718371ce5b2@msapiro>

Marie Ingabire wrote:
>
>I'm learning how to use mailman mailing list. Still now, everything goes
>right. When a moderator refuses that a message can not be delivered, is
>there a way to find it in archive?
>
>I only find in archive the messages approved


That is because the archive only contains messages delivered to the
list. Would you really want spam and/or other posts that a moderator
deemed inappropriate to be in the list's archive?

When a moderator rejects or discards a post, there is a check box to
preserve the message for the site admin. Such messages are copied to a
directory named (by default) 'spam' in Mailman's file structure. This
may not be satisfactory, as it requires a specific moderator action
and the place where the messages are saved is not generally web
accessable (although it could be), but it is the only option for
'archiving' rejected or discarded posts.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From b19141 at anl.gov  Wed Dec 16 17:15:23 2009
From: b19141 at anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:15:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello List
In-Reply-To: Mail from 'Wayne Cook <wcook@mycoachonline.com>'
	dated: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:11:22 -0600
Message-ID: <20091216161523.AC861175E9@britaine.cis.anl.gov>

Wayne Cook <wcook at mycoachonline.com> wrote:

>Here's my first post to this list :)
>
>I'm setting up a mailing list and I only want the list administrator  
>to be able to post messages to the list, can this be set as some kind  
>of default setting?
>
>Thanks
>Wayne

Change the list configuration so that all subscribers are moderated.
And then set each current subscriber to "moderated" via one click
on the membership admin web page.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 240, Room 5.B.8             Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994


From b19141 at anl.gov  Wed Dec 16 17:13:03 2009
From: b19141 at anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:13:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Rejected message Archive
In-Reply-To: Mail from 'Marie Ingabire <marieyvette.ingabire@gmail.com>'
	dated: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:19:43 +0100
Message-ID: <20091216161303.9295B175E9@britaine.cis.anl.gov>

>Hello,
>
>I'm learning how to use mailman mailing list. Still now, everything goes
>right. When a moderator refuses that a message can not be delivered, is
>there a way to find it in archive?
>
>I only find in archive the messages approved
>
>Thank you and best regards,
>
>Mary

The list archives contain all mail that was delivered to the list.
If a moderator rejects a posting, it will not be delivered to the
list, and it will not appear in the list archives.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 240, Room 5.B.8             Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994


From geoff at QuiteLikely.com  Wed Dec 16 18:52:51 2009
From: geoff at QuiteLikely.com (Geoff Shang)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:52:51 +0200 (IST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello List
In-Reply-To: <20091216161523.AC861175E9@britaine.cis.anl.gov>
References: <20091216161523.AC861175E9@britaine.cis.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0912161950190.3726@data.home>

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Barry Finkel wrote:

>> I'm setting up a mailing list and I only want the list administrator
>> to be able to post messages to the list, can this be set as some kind
>> of default setting?
>
> Change the list configuration so that all subscribers are moderated.
> And then set each current subscriber to "moderated" via one click
> on the membership admin web page.

And of course unmoderate the list admin and anyone else you want to be 
able to post.

You should also probably set the list to reject posts from moderated 
members, otherwise you'll need to manually process posts from anyone who 
tries to post.

Geoff.


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec 16 19:00:14 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:00:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] USENET gateway in mailman
In-Reply-To: <7a7c91970912160257j36ee0778le801c8da48c411fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC19520091216100014020310375419@msapiro>

Dlugas X wrote:
>
>      where can I find some informations about usenet gateway in mailman ?


If you are a Mailman list admin or site admin, see the documentation of
the NNTP_* settings in Defaults.pt and see the Mail<->News gateways
section of the admin web interface including the 'details for' links
for the individual settings.

Beyond that, there isn't any concise documentation.

If you are not a list or site admin and are just asking about the
gateway in general, Mailman supports gating messages in either or both
directions between a Mailman list and a Usenet group. The gateway from
the list to Usenet can also be configured to interact appropriately
with moderated groups.

There are some limitations. Different lists cann gateway to/from
different news servers, but if authentication is required they must
all authenticate with the same user/password as that is a global
setting.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec 16 19:22:00 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:22:00 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello List
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0912161950190.3726@data.home>
Message-ID: <PC195200912161022000296192b66e8@msapiro>

Geoff Shang wrote:
>
>And of course unmoderate the list admin and anyone else you want to be 
>able to post.


This is not good advice. Everyone should be moderated and posters
should use an Approved: <password> header to post. Otherwise, it's too
easy for an unauthorized poster to spoof an authorized address.
Spammers even do it accidently.


>You should also probably set the list to reject posts from moderated 
>members, otherwise you'll need to manually process posts from anyone who 
>tries to post.


Yes. This is all covered in the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/3YA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From paul at fpen.org  Wed Dec 16 22:19:30 2009
From: paul at fpen.org (Paul Kleeberg)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:19:30 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Upgrading Mailman on Mac Server 10.5.8 - Stuck!
Message-ID: <BE4A1C87-E0D5-42AD-B22A-7366D12AE849@fpen.org>

I am upgrading preinstalled versions of Mailman (first 2.1.9 => 2.1.12 on a clean install of server 10.5.8 as practice then I will do 2.1.12 rc1 => 2.1.12 in production on server 10.6.2) and I am running into a bunch of minor issues.  I have made it through most of them but this one has me stuck.  When I try and run mailmanctl, I get the error message:

	Shutting down Mailman's master qrunner
	PID unreadable in: /usr/share/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid
	[Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/usr/share/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid'
	Is qrunner even running?

and I find that the file is in another directory:

	/private/var/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid

I have tried different things in the bin/config command, but nothing appears to work.   I have tried searching for a solution but have found nothing.  Can anyone help?

Paul
--
Paul Kleeberg
paul at fpen.org



From paul at fpen.org  Wed Dec 16 22:30:08 2009
From: paul at fpen.org (Paul Kleeberg)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:30:08 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Upgrading Mailman on Mac Server 10.5.8 - Stuck!
In-Reply-To: <BE4A1C87-E0D5-42AD-B22A-7366D12AE849@fpen.org>
References: <BE4A1C87-E0D5-42AD-B22A-7366D12AE849@fpen.org>
Message-ID: <C0FB4F7C-DFBE-4F07-AF75-03146F82F4C3@fpen.org>

Never mind.  Mark already answered my question.  I had forgotten I had asked it.  My apologies.

Paul
--
Paul Kleeberg
paul at fpen.org


On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:19 PM, Paul Kleeberg wrote:

> I am upgrading preinstalled versions of Mailman (first 2.1.9 => 2.1.12 on a clean install of server 10.5.8 as practice then I will do 2.1.12 rc1 => 2.1.12 in production on server 10.6.2) and I am running into a bunch of minor issues.  I have made it through most of them but this one has me stuck.  When I try and run mailmanctl, I get the error message:
> 
> 	Shutting down Mailman's master qrunner
> 	PID unreadable in: /usr/share/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid
> 	[Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/usr/share/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid'
> 	Is qrunner even running?
> 
> and I find that the file is in another directory:
> 
> 	/private/var/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid
> 
> I have tried different things in the bin/config command, but nothing appears to work.   I have tried searching for a solution but have found nothing.  Can anyone help?
> 
> Paul
> --
> Paul Kleeberg
> paul at fpen.org
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/paul%40fpen.org


From cwieland at uci.edu  Thu Dec 17 04:49:26 2009
From: cwieland at uci.edu (Con Wieland)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:49:26 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] shunt - errors
Message-ID: <61FB2F41-AF97-427A-88CA-9AEAE2F6B5CC@uci.edu>

It seems I have a loop going on but I don't understand the error.  I  
have multiple similar messages:

Here's an excerpt from the /opt/nsp/mailman/logs/error

Dec 16 17:22:02 2009 (817) SHUNTING: 1261012921.337497 
+ef91a103dec2273f323d2758d
097a1357db67d3a
Dec 16 18:11:34 2009 (817) Uncaught runner exception: invalid load  
key, '\245'.
Dec 16 18:11:34 2009 (817) Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "/opt/nsp/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 112, in  
_oneloop
     self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
   File "/opt/nsp/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 170, in  
_onefile
     keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
   File "/opt/nsp/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 73, in  
_dispose
     mlist.ArchiveMail(msg)
   File "/opt/nsp/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 215, in  
ArchiveMail
     h = HyperArch.HyperArchive(self)
   File "/opt/nsp/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 641,  
in __init__
     self.__super_init(dir, reload=1, database=db)
   File "/opt/nsp/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 300,  
in __init__
     d = pickle.load(f)
UnpicklingError: invalid load key, '\245'.

any help would be appreciated

Con Wieland
University of California

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 17 05:49:24 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:49:24 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] shunt - errors
In-Reply-To: <61FB2F41-AF97-427A-88CA-9AEAE2F6B5CC@uci.edu>
Message-ID: <PC195200912162049240593208d6829@msapiro>

Con Wieland wrote:

>It seems I have a loop going on but I don't understand the error.  I  
>have multiple similar messages:


It's not a loop.


>Here's an excerpt from the /opt/nsp/mailman/logs/error
>
>Dec 16 17:22:02 2009 (817) SHUNTING: 1261012921.337497 
>+ef91a103dec2273f323d2758d
>097a1357db67d3a
>Dec 16 18:11:34 2009 (817) Uncaught runner exception: invalid load  
>key, '\245'.
>Dec 16 18:11:34 2009 (817) Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/opt/nsp/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 112, in  
>_oneloop
>     self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
>   File "/opt/nsp/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 170, in  
>_onefile
>     keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>   File "/opt/nsp/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 73, in  
>_dispose
>     mlist.ArchiveMail(msg)
>   File "/opt/nsp/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 215, in  
>ArchiveMail
>     h = HyperArch.HyperArchive(self)
>   File "/opt/nsp/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 641,  
>in __init__
>     self.__super_init(dir, reload=1, database=db)
>   File "/opt/nsp/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 300,  
>in __init__
>     d = pickle.load(f)
>UnpicklingError: invalid load key, '\245'.
>
>any help would be appreciated


A list's archives/private/LISTNAME/pipermail.pck file is corrupt. Every
post to that list results in the above error and shunting of the
message to be archived.

You can do

bin/dumpdb qfiles/shunt/1261012921.337497+ef91a103dec2273f323d2758d.pck

on one or more of the shunted files and that should tell you what list.
The messages have probably been successfully added to
archives/private/LISTNAME.mbox/LISTNAME.mbox, and that affects what to
do.

After you determine the list, stop Mailman. Then copy aside the
archives/private/LISTNAME/ directory and it's contents just in case
somethin goes wrong at the next step. Then do

bin/arch --wipe listname

to rebuild the archive. Then you can start Mailman. Then you want to
examine the messages in the qfiles/shunt/*.pck files with bin/dumpdb
or bin/show_qfiles. They are probably in the rebuilt archive. For
those that are, remove the .pck file. If any aren't in the archive,
leave them in qfiles/shunt and run bin/unshunt after deleting the
others.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From a.cappelli at gmail.com  Thu Dec 17 12:26:35 2009
From: a.cappelli at gmail.com (Andrea Cappelli)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:26:35 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscribe link on msg_footer
Message-ID: <1261049195.20014.3.camel@vulcan>

Hi list,
I would place in email footer the link to give possibility to the user
to unsubscribe (possibly directly, without insert the password)

I try to do this adding in msg_footer the following
Unsubscribe: %(user_optionsurl)s?password=%(user_password)
s&unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1

but Mailman (2.1.11 on Debian Lenny) said me that I can't use
user_optionsutl in this variable

There is any other way to do this?

Thank you


From paul at FPEN.ORG  Thu Dec 17 15:20:32 2009
From: paul at FPEN.ORG (Paul Kleeberg)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 08:20:32 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error running bin/mailmanctl restart
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912161353040718df1de892@msapiro>
References: <PC195200912161353040718df1de892@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4F9A9046-1024-4C99-BB20-16F825B1307A@FPEN.ORG>

Mark has been helping me with this off-line but I thought I would send this to the list to see if there are others who are aware of the solution.  I have been using the following on a clean install of Mac Server 10.5.8 and upgrading Mailman 2.1.9 to 2.1.12:

	./configure --prefix=/usr/share/mailman --with-cgi-gid=_www --with-mail-gid=mail --with-mailhost=domain.com --with-urlhost=domain.com --with-var-prefix=/var/mailman  --with-groupname=_mailman

and get the following error:

	***** Installation directory /var/mailman is not configured properly!
	***** Directory must be owned by group _mailman: /var/mailman 

/var/mailman is has the settings root:wheel while the files inside are root:_mailman.

Do I need to change the group of the /var/mailman directory for the install?  I know that change is probably not significant, but I an not sure enough of my knowledge to know.

Once I get this right, I plan on upgrading a 10.6.2 production server running 2.1.12rc1 to 2.1.12.

Thanks!

Paul
--
Paul Kleeberg
paul at fpen.org


On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:53 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Paul Kleeberg wrote:
> 
>> You are correct.  /var points to /private/var but /private/var/mailman
>> is owned by root:wheel.  Should I chgrp to _mailman which is the group
>> of all the files inside or use
>> 
>> --with-groupname=wheel
> 
> 
> As long as the subordinate directories are all group _mailman and
> SETGID, the group of var-prefix itself doesn't matter.
> 
> And you should configure with --with-groupname=_mailman to match the
> group of the existing install.


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 17 16:35:42 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 07:35:42 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error running bin/mailmanctl restart
In-Reply-To: <4F9A9046-1024-4C99-BB20-16F825B1307A@FPEN.ORG>
Message-ID: <PC195200912170735420406753acd80@msapiro>

Paul Kleeberg wrote:

>Mark has been helping me with this off-line


It wasn't my intent to go off-line, but if someone replies to me
without including the list, I tend not to copy the list on further
replies.


>
>and get the following error:
>
>	***** Installation directory /var/mailman is not configured properly!
>	***** Directory must be owned by group _mailman: /var/mailman 
>
>/var/mailman is has the settings root:wheel while the files inside are root:_mailman.
>
>Do I need to change the group of the /var/mailman directory for the install?  I know that change is probably not significant, but I an not sure enough of my knowledge to know.


It is only significant to configure in your case, but configure whant
the prefix and var_prefix directories to be SETGID and Mailman's group
so that subordinates created by make install will be the same.

When you originally asked about this off line, I thought what you had
would be OK because it was a working installation, but apparently it
only works for Apple :(

You need to

chgrp _mailman /var/mailman
chmod g+s /var/mailman

to make configure happy. The prefix directory (/usr/share/mailman in
your case) needs to be the same.

>Once I get this right, I plan on upgrading a 10.6.2 production server running 2.1.12rc1 to 2.1.12.


FYI, 2.1.13rc1 is released and 2.1.13 final will be released next week
barring the unexpected. It fixes several minor bugs in 2.1.12.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From bluria at gmail.com  Wed Dec 16 22:36:14 2009
From: bluria at gmail.com (Brian Luria)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:36:14 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Searching across lists and making global changes
Message-ID: <fed90af00912161336u251637d4ne09c2d87bab31fbd@mail.gmail.com>

Have multiple mailing lists under one domain

Is there any way to search across all lists for a certain member and make a
global change to their email or name?

As an administrator, if a user changes their email, I often have to search
each list for the member to locate them (1) and then change their info (2)

Thank you.

-- 
Brian J. Luria DVM, DACVIM
Bluepearl Veterinary Partners
Florida Veterinary Specialists
Tampa: (813) 933-8944
Clearwater: (727) 572-0132
Brandon: (813) 571-3303
www.bluepearlvet.com

From brillantejewelleryoz at gmail.com  Thu Dec 17 04:11:10 2009
From: brillantejewelleryoz at gmail.com (Elizabeth Cotterell)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 14:11:10 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with mailing list
Message-ID: <2f21be080912161911n607db902t923246e7e4bc678e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi there - I have been having problems with my MAILMAN mailing list that my
hosting service believes is a MAILMAN related problem rather than a hosting
one. I can't post to the list, though the support staff at the hosting
service can... My message gets to MAILMAN but disappears into the ether once
it has been approved, and isn't showing up in the archives.

The list is brillante at brillante.com.au. How do I get support for this?
thanks, Elizabeth

-- 
Elizabeth Cotterell

Brillante Pty Ltd
PO Box 4136
Kingston ACT 2604
AUSTRALIA
email: info at brillante.com.au
web: www.brillante.com.au

From s.watkins at nhm.ac.uk  Thu Dec 17 12:47:46 2009
From: s.watkins at nhm.ac.uk (Steff Watkins)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:47:46 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscribe link on msg_footer
In-Reply-To: <1261049195.20014.3.camel@vulcan>
References: <1261049195.20014.3.camel@vulcan>
Message-ID: <8A17F10FEBA5C841956578C5AD9027D3141751@HOMER.nhm.ac.uk>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mailman-users-bounces+s.watkins=nhm.ac.uk at python.org 
> [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+s.watkins=nhm.ac.uk at python.org] 
> On Behalf Of Andrea Cappelli
> Sent: 17 December 2009 11:27
> To: mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscribe link on msg_footer
> 
> Hi list,
> I would place in email footer the link to give possibility to 
> the user to unsubscribe (possibly directly, without insert 
> the password)
> 
> I try to do this adding in msg_footer the following
> Unsubscribe: %(user_optionsurl)s?password=%(user_password)
> s&unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1
> 
> but Mailman (2.1.11 on Debian Lenny) said me that I can't use 
> user_optionsutl in this variable
> 
> There is any other way to do this?
> 
> Thank you

I'm sorry to say this but this gives me the screaming hab-dabs.

Emailing a user's password in plain text WITHOUT the user requesting it
or expecting it???

Please... No... Don't do it. Walk away from the whizzy
super-fasty-clicky-interfacey-clicky thing and ... No!

Just don't.. Please?

By all means link them back to the webpage that allows them to
unsubscribe. By all means link them to the webpage that allows them to
have a password reminder/reset their password.

But don't EVER just randomly send out a user's password to them
BECAUSE... Well, they MIGHT want to unsubscribe... Or floss the cat..
Or...

Sorry to seem like such a <insert preferred expletive here> but this
opens the door to some many different types of Hell it is strongly to be
discouraged.

Regards, (Xmas cheers and all that... Ho ho ho!)

S Watkins
======

From Hans.Wenzel at FernUni-Hagen.de  Thu Dec 17 14:37:34 2009
From: Hans.Wenzel at FernUni-Hagen.de (Hans Joachim Wenzel)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 14:37:34 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to reduce list archives
Message-ID: <4B2A341E.2080703@FernUni-Hagen.de>

Hi,

we "private" archive all our lists - and its come the time where we
need to free space up on the volume that its archiving to. We are using version 2.1.12.

We tried to edit the archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox file to remove the messages we don't want and then run 'bin/arch --wipe listname' and got:

exim at mailhost-locust] /usr/local/mailman/bin $ ./arch --wipe security  
#00000 <20090102122338.D9D2A15804B at flens.dfn-cert.de>
Schreibe Archivzustand in Datei /HAmailhost/mailman/archives/private/security/pipermail.pck
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./arch", line 201, in ?
    main()
  File "./arch", line 189, in main
    archiver.processUnixMailbox(fp, start, end)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 578, in processUnixMailbox
    a = self._makeArticle(m, self.sequence)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 684, in _makeArticle
    mlist=self.maillist)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 308, in __init__
    charset = message.get_content_charset(cset_out)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.4/email/Message.py", line 800, in get_content_charset
    charset = unicode(charset, 'us-ascii').encode('us-ascii')
TypeError: decoding Unicode is not supported

The archive was completely lost and restored from backup. Any help would be appropriate.
Thanks.

From bluria at gmail.com  Thu Dec 17 16:54:19 2009
From: bluria at gmail.com (Brian Luria)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:54:19 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Searching across lists and making global changes
In-Reply-To: <fed90af00912161336u251637d4ne09c2d87bab31fbd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fed90af00912161336u251637d4ne09c2d87bab31fbd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fed90af00912170754h147f9445sf7d03b33738a1bee@mail.gmail.com>

Apologies if this is a repeat, wasn't sure it went through
*****

> Have multiple mailing lists under one domain
>
> Is there any way to search across all lists for a certain member and make a
> global change to their email or name?
>
> As an administrator, if a user changes their email, I often have to search
> each list for the member to locate them (1) and then change their info (2)
>
> Thank you.
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 17 17:19:56 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 08:19:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscribe link on msg_footer
In-Reply-To: <1261049195.20014.3.camel@vulcan>
Message-ID: <PC195200912170819560296b180bb20@msapiro>

Andrea Cappelli wrote:
>
>I try to do this adding in msg_footer the following
>Unsubscribe: %(user_optionsurl)s?password=%(user_password)s&unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1
>
>but Mailman (2.1.11 on Debian Lenny) said me that I can't use
>user_optionsutl in this variable
>
>There is any other way to do this?


Steff Watkins has already replied as to why this is a bad idea.

As to why it doesn't work, the %(user_optionsurl)s and
%(user_password)s replacements are only available if the list's
Non-digest options -> personalize setting is "Yes" or "Full
Personalization". If the personalize setting doesn't appear on the
Non-digest options page, the installation has to add
OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION = Yes to mm_cfg.py to enable it.

But as Steff says, don't do it. Just use

Unsubscribe: %(user_optionsurl)s

or without personalization

Unsubscribe: %(web_page_url)soptions/%(list_name)s

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Thu Dec 17 17:44:37 2009
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 16:44:37 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Searching across lists and making global changes
In-Reply-To: <fed90af00912161336u251637d4ne09c2d87bab31fbd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fed90af00912161336u251637d4ne09c2d87bab31fbd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091217164437.GZ3079@amyl.org.uk>

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 04:36:14PM -0500, Brian Luria wrote:
> Have multiple mailing lists under one domain
> 
> Is there any way to search across all lists for a certain member

find_member if you've got shell access

> and make a global change to their email or name?

I tend to see how many entries there are, if it's one or two, i'll do
it manually; clone_member is a dandy tool for where there are quite a
few.

Both of those just work on the email address; for the name, make the
person handle that via /options, and instruct them to set the 'set
globally' option.

-- 
``novissima autem inimica destruetur mors omnia enim 
  subiecit sub pedibus eius cum autem dicat''
    (I Corinthios 15:26 (Biblia Sacra Vulgata))

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 17 18:00:15 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:00:15 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to reduce list archives
In-Reply-To: <4B2A341E.2080703@FernUni-Hagen.de>
Message-ID: <PC195200912170900150312f83f88c7@msapiro>

Hans Joachim Wenzel wrote:
>
>we "private" archive all our lists - and its come the time where we
>need to free space up on the volume that its archiving to. We are using version 2.1.12.
>
>We tried to edit the archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox file to remove the messages we don't want and then run 'bin/arch --wipe listname' and got:
>
>exim at mailhost-locust] /usr/local/mailman/bin $ ./arch --wipe security  
>#00000 <20090102122338.D9D2A15804B at flens.dfn-cert.de>
>Schreibe Archivzustand in Datei /HAmailhost/mailman/archives/private/security/pipermail.pck
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "./arch", line 201, in ?
>    main()
>  File "./arch", line 189, in main
>    archiver.processUnixMailbox(fp, start, end)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 578, in processUnixMailbox
>    a = self._makeArticle(m, self.sequence)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 684, in _makeArticle
>    mlist=self.maillist)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 308, in __init__
>    charset = message.get_content_charset(cset_out)
>  File "/usr/lib/python2.4/email/Message.py", line 800, in get_content_charset
>    charset = unicode(charset, 'us-ascii').encode('us-ascii')
>TypeError: decoding Unicode is not supported
>
>The archive was completely lost and restored from backup. Any help would be appropriate.


This is due to an incompatibility between Mailman 2.1.12 and the email
package in some Python 2.4.x releases. See the March 2009 note in the
FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/pYA9> which includes a link to a patch
to the Python lib/email/Charset.py module to fix this.

Also see the comment thread in the bug report at
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/328353>.

I'm surprised that this was the only place you noticed this problem.
Are there occasional shunted messages and error log tracebacks?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 17 18:34:00 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:34:00 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with mailing list
In-Reply-To: <2f21be080912161911n607db902t923246e7e4bc678e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC19520091217093400060966437361@msapiro>

Elizabeth Cotterell wrote:

>Hi there - I have been having problems with my MAILMAN mailing list that my
>hosting service believes is a MAILMAN related problem rather than a hosting
>one. I can't post to the list, though the support staff at the hosting
>service can... My message gets to MAILMAN but disappears into the ether once
>it has been approved, and isn't showing up in the archives.
>
>The list is brillante at brillante.com.au. How do I get support for this?
>thanks, Elizabeth


So your hosting service offers Mailman lists, but is unwilling or
unable to support them. The real answer is to find a host for your
lists that is willing to support what they offer.

This is complicated by the fact that
<http://brillante.com.au/mailman/listinfo> is a cPanel Mailman. See
the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/sYA9>.


That all said, here's the situation. Mailman will silently discard a
message for one of several reasons. All discards are logged in
Mailman's vette log which the host can see, but ...

The most likely reason is content filtering:
  filter_content is Yes
  filter_action is Discard
  nothing was left after content filtering

There are various reasons for this, e.g. the message's type is
multipart/related and pass_mime_types doesn't include that type, or
the message has only text/html parts and they aren't passed.

Other possible reasons include:
  The post is from a moderated member and member_moderation_action is
discard.
  The post is from a non-member and there is a match in
discard_these_nonmembers or generic_nonmember_action is discard.
  The post matches a header_filter_rules rule with discard action.
  The incoming message for some reason contains an X-BeenThere: header
with the list's address
  The installation has set ARCHIVE_HTML_SANITIZER to discard html only
messages and the list's scrub_nondigest is Yes and this is a text/html
message.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Thu Dec 17 20:00:13 2009
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:00:13 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Searching across lists and making global changes
In-Reply-To: <fed90af00912170900w28035fafq1b46a855ef44827a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fed90af00912161336u251637d4ne09c2d87bab31fbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091217164437.GZ3079@amyl.org.uk>
	<fed90af00912170900w28035fafq1b46a855ef44827a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091217190013.GD3079@amyl.org.uk>

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 12:00:34PM -0500, Brian Luria wrote:
> Thanks

please don't 
    (1) reply to list-posts off-list: send them to the list; 
    (2) top-post

> The site is hosted so I dont have shell access. Only the admin interface
> etc. I presume that is of no use(?)

It doesn't look that way; although if the hosts will write a wrapper
to make clone_members/find_members available that may be a help.

I don't imagine you're the site-admin, either, for the lists. 

That said, you might find the thread of which
    http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/msg41130.html
is a part, of interest.

I would suggest that, in the absence of these, you get the users to
bloody-well do their housekeeping themselves. Point them to the
options page, if necessary, pre-fill a URI with their email address,
so something like:
    http://lists.example.org/mailman/options/listfoo/foo at example.com
where they can change their name, and see which other lists that email
address is a member of.

People asking me -- as listadmin -- to change their subscriptions usually
get something like
    "mail me the request from both the old and new address so i know
     it's not nefarious, or visit
        <http://lists.example.org/help#swapsub>
     for instructions on how to do it yourself."

That said, I'm grumpy, and miserable, and believe people should take
responsibility for themselves.

-- 
``Democracy means that if the doorbell rings in the early hours,
  it is likely to be the milkman.'' (Winston Churchill, attrib.)

From paul at FPEN.ORG  Thu Dec 17 20:21:35 2009
From: paul at FPEN.ORG (Paul Kleeberg)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 13:21:35 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error running bin/mailmanctl restart
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912170735420406753acd80@msapiro>
References: <PC195200912170735420406753acd80@msapiro>
Message-ID: <48D2836E-3077-4FDA-9FEC-8F92D44E41D4@FPEN.ORG>

I am ready to tear my hair out.

Thanks to Mark, I got mailman up and running except for one minor hitch.  In my log file I see an endless stream of:

	12/17/09 11:56:49 AM com.apple.launchd[1] (org.list.mailmanctl) Throttling respawn: Will start in 10 seconds 
	12/17/09 11:57:00 AM com.apple.launchd[1] (org.list.mailmanctl) Throttling respawn: Will start in 10 seconds 

Searching the archives, I found this (The thread starts at http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/msg53952.html):


> The only difference between my org.list.mailmanctl.plist and Apple's is my verb *start*, as opposed to Apple's *startf*. I'm baffled by *startf*, which is not supported by mailman and does nothing, either in the CLI or in org.list.mailmanctl.plist.

Further on down in the messages I read:

> I just caught that Bryan notes that he receives an "endless succession" of those messages where as I see one and that's it.
> Comparing our launchd .plist files, I see a few differences:
> Bryan:
>         <key>OnDemand</key>
>         <false/>
> Me:
>         <key>OnDemand</key>
>         <true/>
>         <key>RunAtLoad</key>
>         <true/>

So I made that change to /System/Library/LaunchDaemons/org.list.mailmanctl.plist.

Everything appeared to work fine, web interface works, creating a list works but qrunner does not to appear to start on bootup.  it appears that I now have to manually run:

  sudo /usr/share/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start

to get mailman to start.  That concerns me.  I need to know how to get it to start on boot and how to restart itself if it dies.

When this is all done, I would be happy to summarize what I learned for http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030530.

Paul
--
Paul Kleeberg
paul at fpen.org


On Dec 17, 2009, at 9:35 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Paul Kleeberg wrote:
> 
>> 
>> and get the following error:
>> 
>> 	***** Installation directory /var/mailman is not configured properly!
>> 	***** Directory must be owned by group _mailman: /var/mailman 
>> 
>> /var/mailman is has the settings root:wheel while the files inside are root:_mailman.
>> 
>> Do I need to change the group of the /var/mailman directory for the install?  I know that change is probably not significant, but I an not sure enough of my knowledge to know.
> 
> 
> It is only significant to configure in your case, but configure whant
> the prefix and var_prefix directories to be SETGID and Mailman's group
> so that subordinates created by make install will be the same.
> 
> When you originally asked about this off line, I thought what you had
> would be OK because it was a working installation, but apparently it
> only works for Apple :(
> 
> You need to
> 
> chgrp _mailman /var/mailman
> chmod g+s /var/mailman
> 
> to make configure happy. The prefix directory (/usr/share/mailman in
> your case) needs to be the same.
> 
>> Once I get this right, I plan on upgrading a 10.6.2 production server running 2.1.12rc1 to 2.1.12.
> 
> 
> FYI, 2.1.13rc1 is released and 2.1.13 final will be released next week
> barring the unexpected. It fixes several minor bugs in 2.1.12.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> 


From paul at fpen.org  Thu Dec 17 21:09:02 2009
From: paul at fpen.org (Paul Kleeberg)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 14:09:02 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help with an error
In-Reply-To: <PC1952009121308111901145db25305@msapiro>
References: <PC1952009121308111901145db25305@msapiro>
Message-ID: <CD14CBDC-7300-4F74-9A15-3F8F0B735A2B@fpen.org>

Now that I know what a nightmare it is for me to upgrade Apple's installation of Mailman on a 10.5.8 server, I am not eager to upgrade my 10.6.2 server to which this message applies.  I would like to apply the patch that Mark sent to me but I see from faq 4.40 that I will need to go through the same process of './configure' and 'make install' as I would with an upgrade.  Are there any other options?

I would like to leave it alone, but denying a subscription request fails and i keep getting reminders each morning of the pending request.

Are there other options to deny the request?

Paul
--
Paul Kleeberg
paul at fpen.org


On Dec 13, 2009, at 10:11 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Paul Kleeberg wrote:
>> 
>> In attending to a subscription request to a sunsetted list (the request came before the migration) via the web interface, I received an error.  Here is the mailman error log (I have modified e-mail addresses and the domain name):
>> 
>> Dec 13 08:35:55 2009 admin(81221): @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 
>> admin(81221): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.12rc1 -----] 
>> admin(81221): [----- Traceback ------] 
>> admin(81221): Traceback (most recent call last):
>> admin(81221):   File "/usr/share/mailman/scripts/driver", line 112, in run_main
>> admin(81221):     main()
>> admin(81221):   File "/BinaryCache/mailman/mailman-132~28/Root/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py", line 164, in main
>> admin(81221):   File "/BinaryCache/mailman/mailman-132~28/Root/usr/share/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py", line 773, in process_form
>> admin(81221): AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'get'
> 
> 
> This is a bug in 2.1.12rc1. Upgrade to 2.1.12 or install the attached
> admindb.patch.txt.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> 
> <admindb.patch.txt>


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 17 21:21:56 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:21:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help with an error
In-Reply-To: <CD14CBDC-7300-4F74-9A15-3F8F0B735A2B@fpen.org>
Message-ID: <PC195200912171221560375cfac62af@msapiro>

Paul Kleeberg wrote:

>Now that I know what a nightmare it is for me to upgrade Apple's installation of Mailman on a 10.5.8 server, I am not eager to upgrade my 10.6.2 server to which this message applies.  I would like to apply the patch that Mark sent to me but I see from faq 4.40 that I will need to go through the same process of './configure' and 'make install' as I would with an upgrade.  Are there any other options?


FAQ 4.40 describes a general process for applying patches that could
patch files that are input to configure. For the admindb.py patch I
gave you, you don't have to do this. Just apply the patch to the
installed Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py file. Since it's a CGI, you don't
even have to restart Mailman.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From srb at umich.edu  Thu Dec 17 21:35:42 2009
From: srb at umich.edu (Steve Burling)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 15:35:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error running bin/mailmanctl restart
In-Reply-To: <48D2836E-3077-4FDA-9FEC-8F92D44E41D4@FPEN.ORG>
References: <PC195200912170735420406753acd80@msapiro>
	<48D2836E-3077-4FDA-9FEC-8F92D44E41D4@FPEN.ORG>
Message-ID: <0ECDDBEF8404E9520836B927@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>

--On December 17, 2009 1:21:35 PM -0600 Paul Kleeberg <paul at FPEN.ORG> wrote:

> I am ready to tear my hair out.
>
> Thanks to Mark, I got mailman up and running except for one minor hitch.
> In my log file I see an endless stream of:
>
> 	12/17/09 11:56:49 AM com.apple.launchd[1] (org.list.mailmanctl)
> Throttling respawn: Will start in 10 seconds  	12/17/09 11:57:00 AM
> com.apple.launchd[1] (org.list.mailmanctl) Throttling respawn: Will start
> in 10 seconds
>
> Searching the archives, I found this (The thread starts at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/msg53952.html):
>
>
> > The only difference between my org.list.mailmanctl.plist and Apple's is
> > my verb *start*, as opposed to Apple's *startf*. I'm baffled by
> > *startf*, which is not supported by mailman and does nothing, either in
> > the CLI or in org.list.mailmanctl.plist.

At one point, I compared the stock mailmanctl with that from the one Apple 
distributes with Mac OS X Server.  The only difference was that the 'start' 
stanza in main() had been cloned as a 'startf' stanza, with a couple of 
relatively minor changes, primarily (if I remember correctly) to make it 
not daemonize, since things run from launchd aren't allowed to daemonize. 
I *think* that that's what's leading to the problem you see -- mailmanctl 
daemonizes, launchd cleans it up and it respawns, eventually triggering the 
error.

For my Mailman install on Mac OS X (client, not server) I gave up on using 
launchd to start Mailman at boot time, and just used an old-style 
StartupItem.  I did make launchd scripts for all the Mailman stuff that's 
normally run out of cron; see the archives of this list for information 
about those.

In short, if you want to use launchd to start Mailman at boot time, I think 
that you're going to have to look at Apple's version of mailmanctl, and 
make equivalent changes to the stock mailmanctl to provide a 'startf' 
variant.  If you do that, I urge you to try to do it in a cleaner way than 
Apple's hack -- my memory is that there were so few differences that it was 
a crime that they'd just duplicated the entire block of code and commented 
out parts.

NOTE:  I was doing this comparison between the mailmanctl from Mac OS X 
Server 10.5, not 10.6, so it's possible that they cleaned up their act and 
did things differently.  But a quick side-by-side compare of their 
mailmanctl and the stock one should get you pointed in the right direction.

-- 
Steve Burling                                    <mailto:srb at umich.edu>
University of Michigan, ICPSR                    Voice: +1 734 615.3779
330 Packard Street                               FAX:   +1 734 647.8700
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-2910

From lstone19 at stonejongleux.com  Thu Dec 17 21:39:04 2009
From: lstone19 at stonejongleux.com (Larry Stone)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 14:39:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error running bin/mailmanctl restart
In-Reply-To: <48D2836E-3077-4FDA-9FEC-8F92D44E41D4@FPEN.ORG>
References: <PC195200912170735420406753acd80@msapiro>
	<48D2836E-3077-4FDA-9FEC-8F92D44E41D4@FPEN.ORG>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.64.0912171424160.81884@albion.stonejongleux.com>

I recognize some of my words in what Paul has quoted below so let me 
comment. The discussion Paul is quoting from dealt with running Mailman on 
Mac OS X CLIENT whereas Paul is dealing with Mac OS X SERVER. OS X Server 
comes with a bastardized version of Mailman where as OS X Client has 
nothing except a Mailman account (Why is the account already there? Who 
knows!). The undocumented changes Apple has made have been talked about 
much before and I thought with the conclusion that the Apple provided 
version in Server is unsupported here due to the kind issues Paul is 
having.

My suggestion would be to remove the Apple provided version of Mailman, 
the install the official version from source. Once the Apple version is 
gone, I see no reason that instructions for installing from scratch that 
I've previously posted would not work. Heck, they might even work fine in 
parallel with the Apple version (which obviously then should not be 
allowed to run). I'm pretty sure, if I remember my own instructions 
correctly, that I have Mailman self-contained within /Applications/mailman 
except for the startup file in /Library/LaunchDaemons (which might need to 
be given a slightly different name to avoid a conflict), the modifications 
to the Apache configuration file, and the modifications to the Postfix 
configuration file for the aliases (all of which should be preserved by 
any Apple upgrades).

-- Larry Stone
    lstone19 at stonejongleux.com

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009, Paul Kleeberg wrote:

> I am ready to tear my hair out.
>
> Thanks to Mark, I got mailman up and running except for one minor hitch.  In my log file I see an endless stream of:
>
> 	12/17/09 11:56:49 AM com.apple.launchd[1] (org.list.mailmanctl) Throttling respawn: Will start in 10 seconds
> 	12/17/09 11:57:00 AM com.apple.launchd[1] (org.list.mailmanctl) Throttling respawn: Will start in 10 seconds
>
> Searching the archives, I found this (The thread starts at http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/msg53952.html):
>
>
>> The only difference between my org.list.mailmanctl.plist and Apple's is my verb *start*, as opposed to Apple's *startf*. I'm baffled by *startf*, which is not supported by mailman and does nothing, either in the CLI or in org.list.mailmanctl.plist.
>
> Further on down in the messages I read:
>
>> I just caught that Bryan notes that he receives an "endless succession" of those messages where as I see one and that's it.
>> Comparing our launchd .plist files, I see a few differences:
>> Bryan:
>>         <key>OnDemand</key>
>>         <false/>
>> Me:
>>         <key>OnDemand</key>
>>         <true/>
>>         <key>RunAtLoad</key>
>>         <true/>
>
> So I made that change to /System/Library/LaunchDaemons/org.list.mailmanctl.plist.
>
> Everything appeared to work fine, web interface works, creating a list works but qrunner does not to appear to start on bootup.  it appears that I now have to manually run:
>
>  sudo /usr/share/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start
>
> to get mailman to start.  That concerns me.  I need to know how to get it to start on boot and how to restart itself if it dies.
>
> When this is all done, I would be happy to summarize what I learned for http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030530.
>
> Paul
> --
> Paul Kleeberg
> paul at fpen.org
>
>
> On Dec 17, 2009, at 9:35 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>> Paul Kleeberg wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> and get the following error:
>>>
>>> 	***** Installation directory /var/mailman is not configured properly!
>>> 	***** Directory must be owned by group _mailman: /var/mailman
>>>
>>> /var/mailman is has the settings root:wheel while the files inside are root:_mailman.
>>>
>>> Do I need to change the group of the /var/mailman directory for the install?  I know that change is probably not significant, but I an not sure enough of my knowledge to know.
>>
>>
>> It is only significant to configure in your case, but configure whant
>> the prefix and var_prefix directories to be SETGID and Mailman's group
>> so that subordinates created by make install will be the same.
>>
>> When you originally asked about this off line, I thought what you had
>> would be OK because it was a working installation, but apparently it
>> only works for Apple :(
>>
>> You need to
>>
>> chgrp _mailman /var/mailman
>> chmod g+s /var/mailman
>>
>> to make configure happy. The prefix directory (/usr/share/mailman in
>> your case) needs to be the same.
>>
>>> Once I get this right, I plan on upgrading a 10.6.2 production server running 2.1.12rc1 to 2.1.12.
>>
>>
>> FYI, 2.1.13rc1 is released and 2.1.13 final will be released next week
>> barring the unexpected. It fixes several minor bugs in 2.1.12.
>>
>> --
>> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
>> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/lstone19%40stonejongleux.com
>


From barry at list.org  Thu Dec 17 22:12:29 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 16:12:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error running bin/mailmanctl restart
In-Reply-To: <0ECDDBEF8404E9520836B927@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>
References: <PC195200912170735420406753acd80@msapiro>
	<48D2836E-3077-4FDA-9FEC-8F92D44E41D4@FPEN.ORG>
	<0ECDDBEF8404E9520836B927@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <20091217161229.59e9cfe6@freewill>

On Dec 17, 2009, at 03:35 PM, Steve Burling wrote:

>At one point, I compared the stock mailmanctl with that from the one Apple 
>distributes with Mac OS X Server.  The only difference was that the 'start' 
>stanza in main() had been cloned as a 'startf' stanza, with a couple of 
>relatively minor changes, primarily (if I remember correctly) to make it 
>not daemonize, since things run from launchd aren't allowed to daemonize. 
>I *think* that that's what's leading to the problem you see -- mailmanctl 
>daemonizes, launchd cleans it up and it respawns, eventually triggering the 
>error.

Could someone submit a bug on this here:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman

I think it would be useful to support a "no-daemonize" option to the
'bin/mailman start' command in Mailman 3.

-Barry
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From srb at umich.edu  Thu Dec 17 22:30:35 2009
From: srb at umich.edu (Steve Burling)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 16:30:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error running bin/mailmanctl restart
In-Reply-To: <20091217161229.59e9cfe6@freewill>
References: <PC195200912170735420406753acd80@msapiro>
	<48D2836E-3077-4FDA-9FEC-8F92D44E41D4@FPEN.ORG>
	<0ECDDBEF8404E9520836B927@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>
	<20091217161229.59e9cfe6@freewill>
Message-ID: <F0BB8B9571D23AAEC168EDED@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>

--On December 17, 2009 4:12:29 PM -0500 Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org> wrote:

> Could someone submit a bug on this here:
>
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman
>
> I think it would be useful to support a "no-daemonize" option to the
> 'bin/mailman start' command in Mailman 3.

To which I reply:

Done.

-- 
Steve Burling                                    <mailto:srb at umich.edu>
University of Michigan, ICPSR                    Voice: +1 734 615.3779
330 Packard Street                               FAX:   +1 734 647.8700
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-2910

From lstone19 at stonejongleux.com  Thu Dec 17 22:31:35 2009
From: lstone19 at stonejongleux.com (Larry Stone)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 15:31:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error running bin/mailmanctl restart
In-Reply-To: <0ECDDBEF8404E9520836B927@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>
References: <PC195200912170735420406753acd80@msapiro>
	<48D2836E-3077-4FDA-9FEC-8F92D44E41D4@FPEN.ORG>
	<0ECDDBEF8404E9520836B927@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.64.0912171518190.82791@albion.stonejongleux.com>

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009, Steve Burling wrote:

> At one point, I compared the stock mailmanctl with that from the one Apple 
> distributes with Mac OS X Server.  The only difference was that the 'start' 
> stanza in main() had been cloned as a 'startf' stanza, with a couple of 
> relatively minor changes, primarily (if I remember correctly) to make it not 
> daemonize, since things run from launchd aren't allowed to daemonize. I 
> *think* that that's what's leading to the problem you see -- mailmanctl 
> daemonizes, launchd cleans it up and it respawns, eventually triggering the 
> error.

I forgot about the deamonizing issue. But, it can sort of be worked 
around. In the note Paul quoted from, we have (and I am the "Me" in the 
quote; I forget who Bryan is):

> I just caught that Bryan notes that he receives an "endless succession" 
> of those messages where as I see one and that's it.
> Comparing our launchd .plist files, I see a few differences:
> Bryan:
>         <key>OnDemand</key>
>         <false/>
> Me:
>         <key>OnDemand</key>
>         <true/>
>         <key>RunAtLoad</key>
>         <true/>

With OnDemand set to false, launchctl thinks you want mailmanctl always 
running. But mailmanctl daemonizes and exits so launchctl tries to 
restart it. With my OnDemand set to true and RunAtLoad set to true, 
launchctl tries to run mailmanctl once at boot and is done with it. That 
mailmanctl exits is find. But it comes at the cost of launchctl not 
knowing anything about Mailman after mailmanctl exits. It won't restart it 
if it subsequently dies (has not been a problem for me. I have a cron job 
that runs hourly and e-mails me if a qrunner is missing not that one ever 
is once it's up and running).

But Paul mentioned that he tried OnDemand = true and RunAtLoad = true and 
no qrunners (Paul, did you reboot or force a reload of the launchd plist 
for mailman?). So we'd need to see log files as to what's happening. If 
there's nothing in any logfile (including system.log), then I'd guess the 
plist was never reloaded.

-- Larry Stone
    lstone19 at stonejongleux.com

From barry at list.org  Thu Dec 17 22:54:10 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 16:54:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error running bin/mailmanctl restart
In-Reply-To: <F0BB8B9571D23AAEC168EDED@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>
References: <PC195200912170735420406753acd80@msapiro>
	<48D2836E-3077-4FDA-9FEC-8F92D44E41D4@FPEN.ORG>
	<0ECDDBEF8404E9520836B927@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>
	<20091217161229.59e9cfe6@freewill>
	<F0BB8B9571D23AAEC168EDED@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <20091217165410.56e4a32e@freewill>

On Dec 17, 2009, at 04:30 PM, Steve Burling wrote:

>Done.

Thanks!
-Barry
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From derrickwooden at gmail.com  Thu Dec 17 23:14:03 2009
From: derrickwooden at gmail.com (Derrick Wooden)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 16:14:03 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery
Message-ID: <8e7982f70912171414q44d273d9hc903924591be5327@mail.gmail.com>

I'm currently using a dedicated cPanel server with the following specs.

Xeon 3060 - Dual Core 2.4 GHz - 250GB SATA-II HDD - 2GB DDR2 RAM;
RedHat/cPanel

It currently takes me about 6 hours to deliver 800K emails.  It's an
announce only list with 20 sublists of 40K addresses.

I will be upgrading to:
Xeon 3450 - SATA - Quad Core 2.66 GHz - 250 GB IDE/SATA, 7200rpm - 4GB DDR3
RAM; RedHat/cPanel

and wanted to know if my email deliver would be much faster.

Any assistance/direction with server configuration would be greatly
appreciated.

-Derrick Wooden

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Fri Dec 18 01:30:00 2009
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 00:30:00 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery
In-Reply-To: <8e7982f70912171414q44d273d9hc903924591be5327@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8e7982f70912171414q44d273d9hc903924591be5327@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091218003000.GE3079@amyl.org.uk>

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 04:14:03PM -0600, Derrick Wooden wrote:
> I will be upgrading to:
> Xeon 3450 - SATA - Quad Core 2.66 GHz - 250 GB IDE/SATA, 7200rpm - 4GB DDR3
> RAM; RedHat/cPanel

Regarding cPanel, see <http://wiki.list.org/x/sYA9>.

> and wanted to know if my email deliver would be much faster.

You've not said which MTA, how that's been tweaked, how the spools are
handled (or indeed, partitioned), what else the machine's doing, the
connectivity of the machine, ISP infrastructure, destination servers,
geography/latency, or a ~bundle~ of other things.

> Any assistance/direction with server configuration would be greatly
> appreciated.

There have been some recent posts on this, that I didn't pay much
attention to, but they'll be in the list archive. ISTR djb's Qmail
being involved by the OP, and others suggesting the use of a different
MTA.

-- 
Go mad this weekend: buy some beef! (advert at a supermarket)

From cpz at tuunq.com  Fri Dec 18 02:04:59 2009
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:04:59 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery
In-Reply-To: <20091218003000.GE3079@amyl.org.uk>
References: <8e7982f70912171414q44d273d9hc903924591be5327@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091218003000.GE3079@amyl.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4B2AD53B.2030309@tuunq.com>


Lots of it depends on the MTA (general opinion is that postfix seems to be 
the fastest), connectivity, and list settings (personalized email will take 
much longer).  Check out the FAQ for performance, and as Adam mentioned, the 
list archives)

FWIW, before you change hardware, have you looked at which resources are 
constrained? Also, if it's a dedicated server, why are you using cpanel?

z!


From derrickwooden at gmail.com  Fri Dec 18 02:15:30 2009
From: derrickwooden at gmail.com (d-woo)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:15:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery
In-Reply-To: <20091218003000.GE3079@amyl.org.uk>
References: <8e7982f70912171414q44d273d9hc903924591be5327@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091218003000.GE3079@amyl.org.uk>
Message-ID: <26837735.post@talk.nabble.com>



Adam McGreggor-2 wrote:
> 
> You've not said which MTA, how that's been tweaked, how the spools are
> handled (or indeed, partitioned), what else the machine's doing, the
> connectivity of the machine, ISP infrastructure, destination servers,
> geography/latency, or a ~bundle~ of other things.
> 

The MTA is Exim.  I paid someone to set up this server for Mailman 3 years
ago, but am not certain about partitioning.  I have access to the dedicated
server.  If given directions I could give you which ever settings are
needed.  

The 4 partions are: 
/dev/sda5, mounted at / [root] (227GB/136GB free)
/dev/sda1, mounted at /boot (99MB/78MB free), 
/dev/sda3, mounted at /tmp (1012 MB/927MB free), and 
/tmp, mounted at /var/tmp (also 1012MB/927MB free)

The machine only has one domain on it and is used specifically for
newsletters using Mailman.  Nothing else.  Not even website pages. The
server is hosted by ThePlanet.com and the servers were in Houston when this
was setup 3 years ago.



Adam McGreggor-2 wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 04:14:03PM -0600, Derrick Wooden wrote:
>> I will be upgrading to:
>> Xeon 3450 - SATA - Quad Core 2.66 GHz - 250 GB IDE/SATA, 7200rpm - 4GB
>> DDR3
>> RAM; RedHat/cPanel
> 
> Regarding cPanel, see <http://wiki.list.org/x/sYA9>.
> 
>> and wanted to know if my email deliver would be much faster.
> 
> You've not said which MTA, how that's been tweaked, how the spools are
> handled (or indeed, partitioned), what else the machine's doing, the
> connectivity of the machine, ISP infrastructure, destination servers,
> geography/latency, or a ~bundle~ of other things.
> 
>> Any assistance/direction with server configuration would be greatly
>> appreciated.
> 
> There have been some recent posts on this, that I didn't pay much
> attention to, but they'll be in the list archive. ISTR djb's Qmail
> being involved by the OP, and others suggesting the use of a different
> MTA.
> 
> -- 
> Go mad this weekend: buy some beef! (advert at a supermarket)
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/lists%40nabble.com
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Increasing-the-Speed-of-Email-Delivery-tp26837149p26837735.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From derrickwooden at gmail.com  Fri Dec 18 02:20:08 2009
From: derrickwooden at gmail.com (d-woo)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:20:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery
In-Reply-To: <4B2AD53B.2030309@tuunq.com>
References: <8e7982f70912171414q44d273d9hc903924591be5327@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091218003000.GE3079@amyl.org.uk> <4B2AD53B.2030309@tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <26837773.post@talk.nabble.com>



Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> 
> Also, if it's a dedicated server, why are you using cpanel?
> 

When I first started experimenting with MailMan 3 years ago, I used cPanel
to add/remove my mailing lists, but have since learned how to do a few
things via SSH.  Is the implication that cPanel would hinder the optimal
performance of the MTA and/or Mailman?


Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> 
> 
> Lots of it depends on the MTA (general opinion is that postfix seems to be 
> the fastest), connectivity, and list settings (personalized email will
> take 
> much longer).  Check out the FAQ for performance, and as Adam mentioned,
> the 
> list archives)
> 
> FWIW, before you change hardware, have you looked at which resources are 
> constrained? Also, if it's a dedicated server, why are you using cpanel?
> 
> z!
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/lists%40nabble.com
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Increasing-the-Speed-of-Email-Delivery-tp26837149p26837773.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From derrickwooden at gmail.com  Fri Dec 18 03:25:07 2009
From: derrickwooden at gmail.com (Derrick Wooden)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:25:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery
In-Reply-To: <26837735.post@talk.nabble.com>
References: <8e7982f70912171414q44d273d9hc903924591be5327@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091218003000.GE3079@amyl.org.uk> <26837735.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <26838225.post@talk.nabble.com>


Additional information:

Mailman 2.1.11.cp3
MTA - Exim 4

Exim Config:
queue_only

#smtp_connect_backlog = 200
#smtp_accept_max = 500

auto_thaw = 1d
ignore_bounce_errors_after = 12h
timeout_frozen_after = 2d

split_spool_directory = yes
queue_run_max = 20
remote_max_parallel = 20
smtp_connect_backlog = 50
smtp_accept_max = 100
deliver_queue_load_max = 25

# turn off writing of logs to /var/spool/exim_incoming/msglog/
no_message_logs



Derrick Wooden wrote:
> 
> 
> Adam McGreggor-2 wrote:
>> 
>> You've not said which MTA, how that's been tweaked, how the spools are
>> handled (or indeed, partitioned), what else the machine's doing, the
>> connectivity of the machine, ISP infrastructure, destination servers,
>> geography/latency, or a ~bundle~ of other things.
>> 
> 
> The MTA is Exim.  I paid someone to set up this server for Mailman 3 years
> ago, but am not certain about partitioning.  I have access to the
> dedicated server.  If given directions I could give you which ever
> settings are needed.  
> 
> The 4 partions are: 
> /dev/sda5, mounted at / [root] (227GB/136GB free)
> /dev/sda1, mounted at /boot (99MB/78MB free), 
> /dev/sda3, mounted at /tmp (1012 MB/927MB free), and 
> /tmp, mounted at /var/tmp (also 1012MB/927MB free)
> 
> The machine only has one domain on it and is used specifically for
> newsletters using Mailman.  Nothing else.  Not even website pages. The
> server is hosted by ThePlanet.com and the servers were in Houston when
> this was setup 3 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Adam McGreggor-2 wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 04:14:03PM -0600, Derrick Wooden wrote:
>>> I will be upgrading to:
>>> Xeon 3450 - SATA - Quad Core 2.66 GHz - 250 GB IDE/SATA, 7200rpm - 4GB
>>> DDR3
>>> RAM; RedHat/cPanel
>> 
>> Regarding cPanel, see <http://wiki.list.org/x/sYA9>.
>> 
>>> and wanted to know if my email deliver would be much faster.
>> 
>> You've not said which MTA, how that's been tweaked, how the spools are
>> handled (or indeed, partitioned), what else the machine's doing, the
>> connectivity of the machine, ISP infrastructure, destination servers,
>> geography/latency, or a ~bundle~ of other things.
>> 
>>> Any assistance/direction with server configuration would be greatly
>>> appreciated.
>> 
>> There have been some recent posts on this, that I didn't pay much
>> attention to, but they'll be in the list archive. ISTR djb's Qmail
>> being involved by the OP, and others suggesting the use of a different
>> MTA.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Go mad this weekend: buy some beef! (advert at a supermarket)
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>> Searchable Archives:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>> Unsubscribe:
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/lists%40nabble.com
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Increasing-the-Speed-of-Email-Delivery-tp26837149p26838225.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Dec 18 06:55:44 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:55:44 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Meta: bringing along the newcomers
In-Reply-To: <20091217190013.GD3079@amyl.org.uk>
References: <fed90af00912161336u251637d4ne09c2d87bab31fbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091217164437.GZ3079@amyl.org.uk>
	<fed90af00912170900w28035fafq1b46a855ef44827a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091217190013.GD3079@amyl.org.uk>
Message-ID: <878wd06d27.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Somebody-whom-I-don't-want-to-pick-on-in-particular writes:

 > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 12:00:34PM -0500, (Some) Poor Fellow  wrote:
 > > Thanks
 > 
 > please don't 
 >     (1) reply to list-posts off-list: send them to the list; 
 >     (2) top-post

Given the recent surge in non-traditional list admins (ie, folks
without a Unix or mail admin background), I feel this is excessively
curt.  I don't know about this particular Poor Fellow, but the generic
Poor Fellow probably had no idea it wasn't going to the right place
(he probably isn't subscribed, either, so he won't notice that he
didn't get his own post back).

I suggest that better wording is "Please be careful to ensure that
your reply is addressed to the list."

Actually there should be a FAQ for that in Section 1, so you can add
"see FAQ x.yy".  I suggest adding this to FAQ 1.22.  Something like

    1.22 How should I write my post when asking a question on this
         mailing list?

    Customs vary on the Internet, and while we [except for the
    majority of us old Usenet curmudgeons ;-] don't want to impose our
    customs on the rest of the 'Net, your questions *will* be answered
    more quickly and helpfully if you observe the following:

    o  The first thing you should do is indicate that you've done your
       homework. Look at the Mailman documentation linked from
       http://www.list.org/docs.html. Search the Frequently Asked
       Questions in the wiki. Search the archives of the mailing list
       (see "How do I search the archives of the mailman-users mailing
       list?").

       Once you've looked through all the relevant pieces of
       documentation, FAQ entries, archive messages, etc... and you
       still haven't found your answer, please give us additional
       information as well as the question itself.  See FAQ .

       Specifically, we would like to know:

       1. What methods did you use to look through the documentation
          and search the FAQ, mailing list archives, etc...?

       2. If there were things that initially sounded relevant but
          ended up not being useful to you, which ones were they?

       If you did miss something that is relevant, then having this
       information will help us go back and improve the
       documentation/FAQ/etc... so that the next person who does the
       same search will hopefully hit the correct answer.

       In addition, we would appreciate it if you could provide URLs
       and precise descriptions of the information you found but which
       was not helpful to you.

    o  If you have a specific/detailed question, please proceed to FAQ
       entry 1.23 at "I have a specific-detailed question -- What kind
       of information do I need to provide when posting a question to
       this mailing list?"

       See also FAQ entry 4.78 "Troubleshooting- No mail going out to
       lists members."

       With this information, we are much more likely to be able to
       provide you assistance with your question.

    o  Be careful to ensure that your reply is addressed to the list.
       The widespread practice of "Reply-To munging" is *not*
       implemented on our lists because it makes it difficult (and
       sometimes impossible) to send a private reply.  Because this
       need is frequent in working on Mailman issues (many questions
       involve details of network and host configuration that could be
       used by crackers to compromise security), we do not set
       Reply-To to the list.  (Reply-To munging is not a good idea in
       most cases; see Chip Rosenthal's essay "Reply-To Munging
       Considered Harmful".)

    o  It is a very good idea to subscribe to the list, or at least
       follow the thread in the archives.  For various reasons,
       related posts may *not* be addressed to you, but only to the
       list.  It would be a shame if you missed them.

    o  Once you've sent your post, *wait* at least 48 hours for it to
       be forwarded to you or appear in the archives before assuming
       it got lost.  Because we must allow non-members to post, we are
       relatively vulnerable to spam, and the lists are *moderated* by
       rather busy volunteers.

       Also, make sure that any spamblocking software you have is
       *off* for a while; you will get no sympathy at all if you block
       a reply (and note you don't know where it will come from,
       because the respondent may feel that the required information
       is sensitive, and should not be discussed in public -- see #2
       above).  No sympathy for the delay itself, and many of the less
       frequent contributors will ignore you completely thereafter.
       (The core people will still take care of you, but about half
       the useful answers come from the peanut gallery -- it's a
       significant resource.)

    o  Avoid top-posting (adding a quick comment to the top of a
       message, leaving the automatically included quoted block
       intact.  The people who provide the best answers are used to a
       style in which irrelevant details in the quote are *trimmed*
       (deleted), and in which responses to specific points appear
       *inline*, ie, immediately below the statements or questions
       they refer to.  We don't ask you to like this style; however,
       it is a fact that most of us will be irritated if we scan to
       the bottom of a long quote and discover we just wasted as
       little as 5 seconds doing so.

       In general, conforming to the practices of "Netiquette" will
       smooth the path to resolving your Mailman issues.  It's not
       just a matter of conforming to the "peculiar institutions" of
       the Mailman community: these practices are actually more
       effective in this context.  [needs URL for netiquette]

Sorry, I'm Confluence-differently-abled at the moment.  Assuming
nobody thinks this is a terrible idea, I'll eventually get to posting
this myself, but if somebody wants to speed up the process, I wouldn't
object. :-)

In case it's not obvious, stuff in [square brackets] should not be
cut/pasted to the FAQ.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Dec 18 07:04:10 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:04:10 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery
In-Reply-To: <26837773.post@talk.nabble.com>
References: <8e7982f70912171414q44d273d9hc903924591be5327@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091218003000.GE3079@amyl.org.uk> <4B2AD53B.2030309@tuunq.com>
	<26837773.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <877hsk6co5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

d-woo writes:

 > When I first started experimenting with MailMan 3 years ago, I used cPanel
 > to add/remove my mailing lists, but have since learned how to do a few
 > things via SSH.  Is the implication that cPanel would hinder the optimal
 > performance of the MTA and/or Mailman?

Maybe a little.  The big issue is that it hinders *your* performance,
because your questions on Mailman lists will often get the totally
non-responsive response

    See FAQ <http://wiki.list.org/x/sYA9>.

IOW, the mere mention of cPanel (or Plesk) causes Mailman-Users to
abort and dump core, which is not very useful to you.

P.S.  Read that FAQ.


From derrickwooden at gmail.com  Fri Dec 18 07:15:50 2009
From: derrickwooden at gmail.com (Derrick Wooden)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 22:15:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery
In-Reply-To: <877hsk6co5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <8e7982f70912171414q44d273d9hc903924591be5327@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091218003000.GE3079@amyl.org.uk>
	<4B2AD53B.2030309@tuunq.com> <26837773.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<877hsk6co5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <26839632.post@talk.nabble.com>



Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> IOW, the mere mention of cPanel (or Plesk) causes Mailman-Users to
> abort and dump core, which is not very useful to you.
> 

I have been doing a lot of reading along that wise.  As a result I'm setting
up the new server with no cPanel and will use Postfix as my MTA.  I will do
a clean install of Mailman 2.13 so that I can be on the same page as most
users.

I read in a 2004 (or earlier thread) where using MySQL db tables would also
increase the speed.  I will also utilize this option.



Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> d-woo writes:
> 
>  > When I first started experimenting with MailMan 3 years ago, I used
> cPanel
>  > to add/remove my mailing lists, but have since learned how to do a few
>  > things via SSH.  Is the implication that cPanel would hinder the
> optimal
>  > performance of the MTA and/or Mailman?
> 
> Maybe a little.  The big issue is that it hinders *your* performance,
> because your questions on Mailman lists will often get the totally
> non-responsive response
> 
>     See FAQ <http://wiki.list.org/x/sYA9>.
> 
> IOW, the mere mention of cPanel (or Plesk) causes Mailman-Users to
> abort and dump core, which is not very useful to you.
> 
> P.S.  Read that FAQ.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/lists%40nabble.com
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Increasing-the-Speed-of-Email-Delivery-tp26837149p26839632.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Fri Dec 18 07:29:41 2009
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 00:29:41 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Meta: bringing along the newcomers
In-Reply-To: <878wd06d27.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <fed90af00912161336u251637d4ne09c2d87bab31fbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091217164437.GZ3079@amyl.org.uk>
	<fed90af00912170900w28035fafq1b46a855ef44827a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091217190013.GD3079@amyl.org.uk>
	<878wd06d27.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <1261117781.6900.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-12-18 at 14:55 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Somebody-whom-I-don't-want-to-pick-on-in-particular writes:
> 
>  > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 12:00:34PM -0500, (Some) Poor Fellow
> wrote:
>  > > Thanks
>  > 
>  > please don't 
>  >     (1) reply to list-posts off-list: send them to the list; 
>  >     (2) top-post
> 
> Given the recent surge in non-traditional list admins (ie, folks
> without a Unix or mail admin background), I feel this is excessively
> curt.

Stephen, with all due respect for the work you put into your post, I
think it goes a bit overboard in the other direction.  If I can pose a
question in 6 or 7 lines of text, do I really need to read a couple of
hundred lines of instruction?  - or dig through a FAQ and write a
critique of it - just to get a simple answer?

I recently posted a question to this list in about 7 lines inquiring as
to what file is the source document in a Mailman Pipermail archive.  I
asked on the list precisely _because_ I didn't want to spend the time
searching through FAQs and other documentation for a simple answer to a
simple question.  Mark kindly answered my question within a few minutes
with two lines - one with the name of the file in question and the
second with the URL of a wiki entry discussing the matter in some detail
(thank you, Mark!).

I think your post has some good ideas, but needs a generous application
of the KISS principle :-)

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Never expect the people who caused a problem
FMP Computer Services |  to solve it."  - Albert Einstein
512-259-1190          |        
http://www.fmp.com    |


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Dec 18 14:09:19 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:09:19 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Meta: bringing along the newcomers
In-Reply-To: <1261117781.6900.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <fed90af00912161336u251637d4ne09c2d87bab31fbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091217164437.GZ3079@amyl.org.uk>
	<fed90af00912170900w28035fafq1b46a855ef44827a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091217190013.GD3079@amyl.org.uk>
	<878wd06d27.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1261117781.6900.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <87iqc4ton4.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Lindsay Haisley writes:

 > Stephen, with all due respect for the work you put into your post, I
 > think it goes a bit overboard in the other direction.  If I can pose a
 > question in 6 or 7 lines of text, do I really need to read a couple of
 > hundred lines of instruction?

It's under 100 lines, of which almost half were cut-and-pasted from
the existing FAQ 1.22.

 > - or dig through a FAQ and write a critique of it - just to get a
 >   simple answer?

Yup, that's exactly the stuff I cut and pasted.

Anyway, you're entirely missing the point.  I don't expect anybody to
read FAQ 1.22 in advance of comitting a faux pas; this particular FAQ
is mostly for pointing to *afterward*.

 > I recently posted a question to this list in about 7 lines
 > inquiring as to what file is the source document in a Mailman
 > Pipermail archive.  I asked on the list precisely _because_ I
 > didn't want to spend the time searching through FAQs and other
 > documentation for a simple answer to a simple question.

Er, that's precisely what FAQs and documentation in general are for,
so I suggest you go read the current version of FAQ 1.22, then.  It
was written for people like you.<wink>

More seriously, you've been around long enough (and have presumably
actually perused the FAQ once or twice) to have a sense of what's
*not* in there.  You're obviously not the audience for FAQ 1.22, and
the question you describe is not one of the ones that Mark should make
a New Year's resolution to stop answering.

From Geoff at QuiteLikely.com  Fri Dec 18 14:31:23 2009
From: Geoff at QuiteLikely.com (Geoff Shang)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:31:23 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Meta: bringing along the newcomers
References: <fed90af00912161336u251637d4ne09c2d87bab31fbd@mail.gmail.com><20091217164437.GZ3079@amyl.org.uk><fed90af00912170900w28035fafq1b46a855ef44827a@mail.gmail.com><20091217190013.GD3079@amyl.org.uk><878wd06d27.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp><1261117781.6900.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<87iqc4ton4.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <465D0332DEFE4FB39345B053415A01B8@home>

Hi,

Excuse the top-posting. :)

When I first had to look at the FAQs and subscribe to this list to get some 
problems sorted, there were two FAQs.  There may will still be.  It appeared 
to me that the much shorter one was by far the more visible, and I only 
found the main WIKI-based FAQ when I went to look in the WIKI, which seemed 
to me an obvious thing to do but might not to people less familiar with open 
source projects and their methodologies.

I think that two things would cut down on the "see the FAQ" type questions:

1.  Get rid of the non-WIKI FAQ, merging any content that's not already in 
the WIKI, then point everyone there.  The WIKI FAQ is an excellent resource, 
and I'm sure many people would find the answers to their questions if they 
knew to look there.

2.  In the places where this list is mentioned, make it clear that this 
list, which is given as the main support address for Mailman, is a mailing 
list, that it's a moderated list so posts may take a day or two to be sent, 
and that we cannot reset your password for you or other types of things that 
specific hosting providers need to do.  A comment about the various forks of 
Mailman which can't really be supported might also be a good idea.

Just my 2c as a person who's come on board here in the past couple of 
months.

Geoff.







----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen at xemacs.org>
To: <fmouse at fmp.com>
Cc: <mailman-users at python.org>
Sent: Friday, 18 December, 2009 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Meta: bringing along the newcomers


Lindsay Haisley writes:

 > Stephen, with all due respect for the work you put into your post, I
 > think it goes a bit overboard in the other direction.  If I can pose a
 > question in 6 or 7 lines of text, do I really need to read a couple of
 > hundred lines of instruction?

It's under 100 lines, of which almost half were cut-and-pasted from
the existing FAQ 1.22.

 > - or dig through a FAQ and write a critique of it - just to get a
 >   simple answer?

Yup, that's exactly the stuff I cut and pasted.

Anyway, you're entirely missing the point.  I don't expect anybody to
read FAQ 1.22 in advance of comitting a faux pas; this particular FAQ
is mostly for pointing to *afterward*.

 > I recently posted a question to this list in about 7 lines
 > inquiring as to what file is the source document in a Mailman
 > Pipermail archive.  I asked on the list precisely _because_ I
 > didn't want to spend the time searching through FAQs and other
 > documentation for a simple answer to a simple question.

Er, that's precisely what FAQs and documentation in general are for,
so I suggest you go read the current version of FAQ 1.22, then.  It
was written for people like you.<wink>

More seriously, you've been around long enough (and have presumably
actually perused the FAQ once or twice) to have a sense of what's
*not* in there.  You're obviously not the audience for FAQ 1.22, and
the question you describe is not one of the ones that Mark should make
a New Year's resolution to stop answering.
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From lucither at lucither.de  Thu Dec 17 18:56:17 2009
From: lucither at lucither.de (Jan Behrens)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:56:17 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Iphone and Mailman
Message-ID: <DA3EEE8B-E156-4BD4-8078-C930EDF536A5@lucither.de>

Hello,


I'm using mailman 2.1.9 on a suse11 linux server with qmail und i  
found a strange behaviour:

whenever i send an email to the list via the mail.app on my IPhone,  
sent images are lost.

when i send the same email to that list  with Mail on my macbook,  
everything is okay.

since mail works normally and mail.app send its pictures via email to  
other people, it seems to be a small problem with the parsing of an  
iphone mail.

Is there anything known about that or a workaround? i googled und used  
your manuals but haven't found anything.



best regards Jan



From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Dec 18 16:39:56 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:39:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Iphone and Mailman
In-Reply-To: <DA3EEE8B-E156-4BD4-8078-C930EDF536A5@lucither.de>
Message-ID: <PC19520091218073956025059c8e6f2@msapiro>

Jan Behrens wrote:
>
>whenever i send an email to the list via the mail.app on my IPhone,  
>sent images are lost.
>
>when i send the same email to that list  with Mail on my macbook,  
>everything is okay.
>
>since mail works normally and mail.app send its pictures via email to  
>other people, it seems to be a small problem with the parsing of an  
>iphone mail.


It may be the list's content filtering doing this or it may be
something else. In order to see more, we would need to see your
content filtering settings (assuming filter_content is Yes), and we
would need to see the MIME structure of the message from the iPhone,
i.e. a raw message sent directly from the iPhone. This could have the
actual message part contents removed, but we'd need all headers
including sub-part headers and boundarys.

If you want, you could send me directly (off list) a message with an
image from the iPhone.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From Geoff at QuiteLikely.com  Fri Dec 18 17:17:45 2009
From: Geoff at QuiteLikely.com (Geoff Shang)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:17:45 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello List
References: <PC195200912161022000296192b66e8@msapiro>
Message-ID: <46FFB3275F56400E9414743422DDD4A5@home>

Hi,

You're right in that I did forget the Approved: approach, as I didn't iknow 
about it until recently.

Howver, thinking about it further, there's one thing I don't like about it. 
It's OK if the people posting are list admins or moderators, but if you have 
othwers who should be able to post to the list, you don't necessarily want 
to give them all the admin or moderator password.  An additional password 
for this purpose would perhaps be called for here, one that's only used to 
allow posts through without granting any other access.

Geoff.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Sapiro" <mark at msapiro.net>
To: "Geoff Shang" <geoff at QuiteLikely.com>; <Mailman-Users at python.org>
Sent: Wednesday, 16 December, 2009 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Hello List


Geoff Shang wrote:
>
>And of course unmoderate the list admin and anyone else you want to be
>able to post.


This is not good advice. Everyone should be moderated and posters
should use an Approved: <password> header to post. Otherwise, it's too
easy for an unauthorized poster to spoof an authorized address.
Spammers even do it accidently.


>You should also probably set the list to reject posts from moderated
>members, otherwise you'll need to manually process posts from anyone who
>tries to post.


Yes. This is all covered in the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/3YA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 4699 (20091218) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com




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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com




From fmouse at fmp.com  Fri Dec 18 17:22:24 2009
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:22:24 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello List
In-Reply-To: <46FFB3275F56400E9414743422DDD4A5@home>
References: <PC195200912161022000296192b66e8@msapiro>
	<46FFB3275F56400E9414743422DDD4A5@home>
Message-ID: <1261153344.6769.11.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-12-18 at 18:17 +0200, Geoff Shang wrote:
> Howver, thinking about it further, there's one thing I don't like about it. 
> It's OK if the people posting are list admins or moderators, but if you have 
> othwers who should be able to post to the list, you don't necessarily want 
> to give them all the admin or moderator password.  An additional password 
> for this purpose would perhaps be called for here, one that's only used to 
> allow posts through without granting any other access.

Is there some reason that you, as admin, can't just un-set their
moderation flag?

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       |"Fighting against human |     PGP public key
FMP Computer Services |   creativity is like   |      available at
512-259-1190          |   trying to eradicate  |<http://pubkeys.fmp.com>
http://www.fmp.com    |       dandelions"      |
                      |     (Pamela Jones)     |



From Geoff at QuiteLikely.com  Fri Dec 18 17:09:13 2009
From: Geoff at QuiteLikely.com (Geoff Shang)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:09:13 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Searching across lists and making global changes
References: <fed90af00912161336u251637d4ne09c2d87bab31fbd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18CDF1E791634BA4A6FD951A14649400@home>

Hi,

Sorry again for the top-post, not using my regular Email client.  This is a 
temporary condition.

First, your members can do this for themselves, and I for one encourage them 
to do this.  They can simply change these in their options page for one of 
the lists and then choose to change it globally.

Unfortunately, there appears to be some restriction that prevents a list 
admin from doing this.  I vaguely recall that there is a work-around for 
this, but can't recall it right now.  I'm sure someone will mention it if 
there is.

Geoff.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brian Luria" <bluria at gmail.com>
To: <mailman-users at python.org>
Sent: Wednesday, 16 December, 2009 11:36 PM
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Searching across lists and making global changes


Have multiple mailing lists under one domain

Is there any way to search across all lists for a certain member and make a
global change to their email or name?

As an administrator, if a user changes their email, I often have to search
each list for the member to locate them (1) and then change their info (2)

Thank you.

-- 
Brian J. Luria DVM, DACVIM
Bluepearl Veterinary Partners
Florida Veterinary Specialists
Tampa: (813) 933-8944
Clearwater: (727) 572-0132
Brandon: (813) 571-3303
www.bluepearlvet.com
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Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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From Geoff at QuiteLikely.com  Fri Dec 18 17:34:33 2009
From: Geoff at QuiteLikely.com (Geoff Shang)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:34:33 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello List
References: <PC195200912161022000296192b66e8@msapiro><46FFB3275F56400E9414743422DDD4A5@home>
	<1261153344.6769.11.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <0B85EAD7DC1F4774B023BD043A26904D@home>

Hi,

Yes I can clear their moderation flag, and in fact this is what I first 
suggested, but my message was in response to a message from Mark who was 
putting forward the position that this was a bad idea and that it's better 
to post using the Approved: header instead.

Geoff.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lindsay Haisley" <fmouse at fmp.com>
To: <mailman-users at python.org>
Sent: Friday, 18 December, 2009 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Hello List


On Fri, 2009-12-18 at 18:17 +0200, Geoff Shang wrote:
> Howver, thinking about it further, there's one thing I don't like about 
> it.
> It's OK if the people posting are list admins or moderators, but if you 
> have
> othwers who should be able to post to the list, you don't necessarily want
> to give them all the admin or moderator password.  An additional password
> for this purpose would perhaps be called for here, one that's only used to
> allow posts through without granting any other access.

Is there some reason that you, as admin, can't just un-set their
moderation flag?

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       |"Fighting against human |     PGP public key
FMP Computer Services |   creativity is like   |      available at
512-259-1190          |   trying to eradicate  |<http://pubkeys.fmp.com>
http://www.fmp.com    |       dandelions"      |
                      |     (Pamela Jones)     |


------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/geoff%40quitelikely.com


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com




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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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From fmouse at fmp.com  Fri Dec 18 18:02:40 2009
From: fmouse at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:02:40 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello List
In-Reply-To: <0B85EAD7DC1F4774B023BD043A26904D@home>
References: <PC195200912161022000296192b66e8@msapiro>
	<46FFB3275F56400E9414743422DDD4A5@home>
	<1261153344.6769.11.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<0B85EAD7DC1F4774B023BD043A26904D@home>
Message-ID: <1261155760.6769.38.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-12-18 at 18:34 +0200, Geoff Shang wrote:
> Yes I can clear their moderation flag, and in fact this is what I first 
> suggested, but my message was in response to a message from Mark who was 
> putting forward the position that this was a bad idea and that it's better 
> to post using the Approved: header instead.

I don't entirely agree with Mark on this.  I generally offer my
customers the option of using either mechanism, with the caveat that
using the mod flag is potentially less secure.  

You have two moderation passwords, one for "administrators" and one for
"moderators".  Either will work in an "Approved" header or pseudo-
header.  If you don't designate any moderators, then only the
administrator password is effective.  There's no reason you couldn't
designate a group of moderators and give them the password, and then
change it administratively if their service is no longer needed.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Never expect the people who caused a problem
FMP Computer Services |  to solve it."  - Albert Einstein
512-259-1190          |        
http://www.fmp.com    |


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Fri Dec 18 18:03:21 2009
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:03:21 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello List
In-Reply-To: <0B85EAD7DC1F4774B023BD043A26904D@home>
References: <PC195200912161022000296192b66e8@msapiro>
	<46FFB3275F56400E9414743422DDD4A5@home>
	<1261153344.6769.11.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<0B85EAD7DC1F4774B023BD043A26904D@home>
Message-ID: <1261155801.6769.40.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-12-18 at 18:34 +0200, Geoff Shang wrote:
> Yes I can clear their moderation flag, and in fact this is what I first 
> suggested, but my message was in response to a message from Mark who was 
> putting forward the position that this was a bad idea and that it's better 
> to post using the Approved: header instead.

I don't entirely agree with Mark on this.  I generally offer my
customers the option of using either mechanism, with the caveat that
using the mod flag is potentially less secure.  

You have two moderation passwords, one for "administrators" and one for
"moderators".  Either will work in an "Approved" header or pseudo-
header.  If you don't designate any moderators, then only the
administrator password is effective.  There's no reason you couldn't
designate a group of moderators and give them the password, and then
change it administratively if their service is no longer needed.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Never expect the people who caused a problem
FMP Computer Services |  to solve it."  - Albert Einstein
512-259-1190          |        
http://www.fmp.com    |


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Fri Dec 18 18:27:14 2009
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:27:14 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Code comments
Message-ID: <1261157234.6769.53.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Given that definitive documentation for Mailman isn't really
consolidated in one place, I often find that the code comments in the
Mailman program files (~mailman/Mailman/*) can be very helpful in
answering questions or solving problems with Mailman.

I've worked with code in many languages that is so cryptically
commented, with variable names that were so non-descriptive (Dan
Bernstein's qmail code comes to mind) as to be totally useless if one
wanted to look under the hood for help.  Mailman code is quite the
opposite - well organized with copious comments which can be very
helpful if one knows even a little about the program structure.  Even if
you don't grok python, or OO programming, there's a lot to be learned
here.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Everything works    |     PGP public key
FMP Computer Services |       if you let it" |      available at
512-259-1190          |    (The Roadie)      | http://pubkeys.fmp.com
http://www.fmp.com    |                      |




From barry at python.org  Fri Dec 18 18:57:26 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:57:26 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Code comments
In-Reply-To: <1261157234.6769.53.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1261157234.6769.53.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <E2E5EB4F-45C1-44ED-8F66-42F82C903078@python.org>

On Dec 18, 2009, at 12:27 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

> I've worked with code in many languages that is so cryptically
> commented, with variable names that were so non-descriptive (Dan
> Bernstein's qmail code comes to mind) as to be totally useless if one
> wanted to look under the hood for help.  Mailman code is quite the
> opposite - well organized with copious comments which can be very
> helpful if one knows even a little about the program structure.  Even if
> you don't grok python, or OO programming, there's a lot to be learned
> here.

Thanks!  Mailman 3 should be even better.  I'm a huge fan of doctests (not exclusive to unittests, but highly favored) so there should be fairly comprehensive narratives for all the component parts.  Soon I'll be fleshing out some higher level overview type documentation too.  And because it's all doctest/sphinx, you can generate nice HTML, which I try to do when I release new versions.

-Barry


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Dec 18 20:00:42 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:00:42 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello List
In-Reply-To: <1261155801.6769.40.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <PC19520091218110042045359c8e7af@msapiro>

Lindsay Haisley wrote:

>On Fri, 2009-12-18 at 18:34 +0200, Geoff Shang wrote:
>> Yes I can clear their moderation flag, and in fact this is what I first 
>> suggested, but my message was in response to a message from Mark who was 
>> putting forward the position that this was a bad idea and that it's better 
>> to post using the Approved: header instead.
>
>I don't entirely agree with Mark on this.  I generally offer my
>customers the option of using either mechanism, with the caveat that
>using the mod flag is potentially less secure.  


FWIW, I was recommending the Approved: <password> approach in the
context of a reply where the OP said "I only want the list
administrator to be able to post messages to the list".

I agree that in the case where you have authorized posters who are not
necessarily admins or moderators that controlling posting by
unmoderating posters and/or accept_these_nonmembers is appropriate
although still subject to spoofing. It all depends on the list.


>You have two moderation passwords, one for "administrators" and one for
>"moderators".  Either will work in an "Approved" header or pseudo-
>header.  If you don't designate any moderators, then only the
>administrator password is effective.  There's no reason you couldn't
>designate a group of moderators and give them the password, and then
>change it administratively if their service is no longer needed.


Just to be clear, the presence or absence of an email address in the
owner or moderator attributes of a list has nothing to do with who can
do what. It only controls where notices are sent and what appears in
web page footers.

It is quite possible to set a moderator password without adding any
addresses to 'moderator', and anyone who knows that password can post
an Approved: or Urgent: message and log in to the admindb page.

See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/5YA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Fri Dec 18 20:36:54 2009
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:36:54 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello List
In-Reply-To: <PC19520091218110042045359c8e7af@msapiro>
References: <PC19520091218110042045359c8e7af@msapiro>
Message-ID: <1261165014.6769.76.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-12-18 at 11:00 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Just to be clear, the presence or absence of an email address in the
> owner or moderator attributes of a list has nothing to do with who can
> do what. It only controls where notices are sent and what appears in
> web page footers.
> 
> It is quite possible to set a moderator password without adding any
> addresses to 'moderator', and anyone who knows that password can post
> an Approved: or Urgent: message and log in to the admindb page.

I'm aware of this, but it does bring up another question, which, in my
own cowardly way, I was trying to avoid dealing with ;-/  

I assume that if one sets up a new list and doesn't set a moderator
password, then only the administrator can use an
"Approved:" [pseudo]header and there's no default moderator password.
If one sets up a moderator password then either will work.  I (naively)
assumed that deleting all moderator email addresses _might_ thereby
render the moderator password ineffective, but in my guts, I knew it
probably wasn't so.

Is there any way to nullify the moderator password altogether?  Does
submitting the passwords page with an empty field for the mod pw
accomplish this?

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The difference between |     PGP public key
FMP Computer Services |  a duck is because one  |      available at
512-259-1190          |  leg is both the same"  | http://pubkeys.fmp.com
http://www.fmp.com    |       - Anonymous       |


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Fri Dec 18 20:35:30 2009
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:35:30 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello List
In-Reply-To: <PC19520091218110042045359c8e7af@msapiro>
References: <PC19520091218110042045359c8e7af@msapiro>
Message-ID: <1261164930.6769.75.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2009-12-18 at 11:00 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Just to be clear, the presence or absence of an email address in the
> owner or moderator attributes of a list has nothing to do with who can
> do what. It only controls where notices are sent and what appears in
> web page footers.
> 
> It is quite possible to set a moderator password without adding any
> addresses to 'moderator', and anyone who knows that password can post
> an Approved: or Urgent: message and log in to the admindb page.

I'm aware of this, but it does bring up another question, which, in my
own cowardly way, I was trying to avoid dealing with ;-/  

I assume that if one sets up a new list and doesn't set a moderator
password, then only the administrator can use an
"Approved:" [pseudo]header and there's no default moderator password.
If one sets up a moderator password then either will work.  I (naively)
assumed that deleting all moderator email addresses _might_ thereby
render the moderator password ineffective, but in my guts, I knew it
probably wasn't so.

Is there any way to nullify the moderator password altogether?  Does
submitting the passwords page with an empty field for the mod pw
accomplish this?

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "The difference between |     PGP public key
FMP Computer Services |  a duck is because one  |      available at
512-259-1190          |  leg is both the same"  | http://pubkeys.fmp.com
http://www.fmp.com    |       - Anonymous       |


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Dec 18 21:13:47 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:13:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hello List
In-Reply-To: <1261165014.6769.76.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <PC195200912181213470031aadc050e@msapiro>

Lindsay Haisley wrote:
>
>Is there any way to nullify the moderator password altogether?  Does
>submitting the passwords page with an empty field for the mod pw
>accomplish this?


You can't remove a moderator password through the GUI. You could always
enter some obscure string that you will immediately forget, and that's
probably as good, but if you really want to remove it, you have to set

mod_password = None

via bin/withlist or bin/config_list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From kremels at kreme.com  Sat Dec 19 04:02:12 2009
From: kremels at kreme.com (LuKreme)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 20:02:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Iphone and Mailman
In-Reply-To: <DA3EEE8B-E156-4BD4-8078-C930EDF536A5@lucither.de>
References: <DA3EEE8B-E156-4BD4-8078-C930EDF536A5@lucither.de>
Message-ID: <8CE13633-4AC0-45F1-B8B1-C1A79A404792@kreme.com>

On 17-Dec-2009, at 10:56, Jan Behrens wrote:
> whenever i send an email to the list via the mail.app on my IPhone, sent images are lost.

I just tested this from my iPhone and the image was posted just fine.

Headers look like this:

Return-Path: <mylist-bounces+*munged*=*munged*.com@*munged*.com>
X-Original-To: *munged*@*munged*.com
Delivered-To: *munged*@covisp.net
Received: from [75.148.117.93] (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mail.covisp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C683A118B9E4
	for <*munged*@*munged*.com>; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:25:59 -0700 (MST)
X-Original-To: mylist@*munged*.com
Delivered-To: mylist at covisp.net
Received: from [10.0.5.13] (c-71-229-189-229.hsd1.co.comcast.net
	[71.229.189.229])
	by mail.covisp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04CF4118B949
	for <mylist@*munged*.com>; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:25:38 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <5E995063-B92C-48A7-83F6-BCAAFA8F6E0F@*munged*.com>
From: MyiPhone <*munged*@*munged*.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--603504906
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:25:36 -0700
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11)
Subject: [mylist] Testing
X-BeenThere: mylist@*munged*.com
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: mylist@*munged*.com
Cc: mylist@*munged*.com
List-Id: <mylist.*munged*.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.covisp.net/mailman/listinfo/mylist>,
	<mailto:mylist-request@*munged*.com?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://mailman.covisp.net/mailman/private/mylist>
List-Post: <mailto:mylist@*munged*.com>
List-Help: <mailto:mylist-request@*munged*.com?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.covisp.net/mailman/listinfo/mylist>,
	<mailto:mylist-request@*munged*.com?subject=subscribe>
To: Lewis Butler <*munged*@*munged*.com>
Sender: mylist-bounces+*munged*=*munged*.com@*munged*.com
Errors-To: mylist-bounces+*munged*=*munged*.com@*munged*.com

--Apple-Mail-1--603504906
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=us-ascii;
	format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit




--Apple-Mail-1--603504906
Content-Disposition: inline;
	filename=photo.jpg
Content-Type: image/jpeg;
	name=photo.jpg
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAICAgICAQICAgICAgIDAwYEAwMDAwcFBQQGCAcICAgH
?etc
oAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooA//2Q==

--Apple-Mail-1--603504906
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline


-- 
Penny! *Everything* is better with BlueTooth


From johnf at net2000.com.au  Mon Dec 21 08:49:44 2009
From: johnf at net2000.com.au (John Fitzsimons)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:49:44 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>


Hi,

Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman
mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and
vica versa ?

I believe that something like this could work with phpbb2 but not the
current release. Can anyone help please ?

Regards, John.


From Robert.L.Hicks at uscg.mil  Mon Dec 21 15:18:36 2009
From: Robert.L.Hicks at uscg.mil (Hicks, Robert CTR)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:18:36 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] glitch or something I missed?
Message-ID: <E2F4A8FFBEBA9145AB316E4A4F283BE1042413D1@emo-exmb-m-202.main.ads.uscg.mil>

I setup mailman and I have a user that sent me the following:

===
I am the list administrator for several deckplates in District 13.  
Yesterday I had 2 submissions (different subjects) by the same person to
3 different deckplates.  When I went to approve them, both messages were there but there was only one big box covering both messages to approve, discard, etc.  Usually there is a separate approval box for each message.  Anyway, I checked approve on all 3 deckplates, but only the message with the earliest date was released.

I've never had this happen before.  Usually there is an approval box for each message and I have released several at once in the past.  Is this a glitch in the system?
===

Did I miss a config option maybe?

Bob

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Mon Dec 21 15:52:25 2009
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:52:25 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <20091221145225.GY3079@amyl.org.uk>

On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 06:49:44PM +1100, John Fitzsimons wrote:
> Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman
> mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and
> vica versa ?

Not quite forum, but there's a start in processing/handling email via
Wordpress: it sort of works most of the time in the few cases where
I'm using that (although in those cases, that's soon to change to
generating the content in $CMS, and thence mailing via the CMS'd
version).

The Wordpress thingy turns email -> database record(s), from which it
ought to be moderately easy to map those fields to appropriate ones
for the forum.

Perhaps use Mailman -> Wordpress -> [script] Forum, or maybe have a
look at the Wordpress importer, and adapt that to suit the fields for
your forum database. Most of that sort of thing (forums, wordpress)
uses pretty standard approaches, IME.

For getting forum -> list, it ought to be quite trivial to subscribe
the list to the forum's tracking wotsit, although, then you're
reproducing content (with the originating author's consent?), and
there's no guarantee in avoid duplication.

I can't really think of a way to maintain an up-to date email thread
in a forum, allowing posting to both; although, an afterthought may be
to use NNTP for both... but that's quite perverse. 

(Do forum softwares still support NNTP feeds, or does one need to use
"RSS" or "XML" or one of those other new-fangled things to import
content?)

Others may have better 'solutions'.

-- 
``I speak better English than this villain Bush.''
  (Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf, attrib.)

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec 21 16:10:27 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:10:27 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] glitch or something I missed?
In-Reply-To: <E2F4A8FFBEBA9145AB316E4A4F283BE1042413D1@emo-exmb-m-202.main.ads.uscg.mil>
Message-ID: <PC19520091221071027076588aacf18@msapiro>

Hicks, Robert CTR wrote:

>I setup mailman and I have a user that sent me the following:
>
>===
>I am the list administrator for several deckplates in District 13.  
>Yesterday I had 2 submissions (different subjects) by the same person to
>3 different deckplates.  When I went to approve them, both messages were there but there was only one big box covering both messages to approve, discard, etc.  Usually there is a separate approval box for each message.  Anyway, I checked approve on all 3 deckplates, but only the message with the earliest date was released.
>
>I've never had this happen before.  Usually there is an approval box for each message and I have released several at once in the past.  Is this a glitch in the system?
>===


When there are multiple held posts from the same address, they are
always grouped as above (by sender) on the admindb summary page.

If the moderator wants to deal with or view the messages separately,
she/he can click the individual message number and get a detail page
for that message only, and it can be approved/rejected/discarded from
there.

If the sender group is acted upon on the summary page, the action
applies to all messages in the group.

As to why only one of the three messages reached the list(s) in this
case, it is possible only one was accepted from it's detail page, or
two of the three accepted messages could have been rejected/discarded
by content filtering. If the messages were discarded by content
filtering, there will be discard messages in Mailman's vette log. If
they were rejected, there is no log message, but the poster should
have received the rejection.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec 21 16:22:55 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:22:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <PC1952009122107225506404851f6b7@msapiro>

John Fitzsimons wrote:
>
>Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman
>mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and
>vica versa ?


Mailman can gateway a lists to/from a Usenet group. The gateway is via
NNTP. If the Usenet group is also carried on Google Groups for
example, you then have web access to the group, but Mailman can't
directly gateway to/from Google or any other non-NNTP service.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From barry at python.org  Mon Dec 21 17:06:29 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:06:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <86CF6924-7CD1-47F5-A975-6A35F82ECD71@python.org>

On Dec 21, 2009, at 2:49 AM, John Fitzsimons wrote:

> Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman
> mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and
> vica versa ?

I would invite anybody interested in exploring this to join us over in mailman-developers.  This is something I'd love to see for Mailman 3.

-Barry


From terri at zone12.com  Mon Dec 21 19:21:10 2009
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:21:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <4B2FBC96.4080306@zone12.com>

John Fitzsimons wrote:
> Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman
> mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and
> vica versa ?
> 
> I believe that something like this could work with phpbb2 but not the
> current release. Can anyone help please ?

Not yet, but I'd like there to be, because I think a web forum could be 
a more user-friendly (or at least user-familiar) way for us to handle 
archives.  I started looking in to it some time ago, but life happened 
and the code I'd hoped to write didn't.

  Terri


From brodak at gmail.com  Mon Dec 21 19:49:22 2009
From: brodak at gmail.com (Brandon Rodak)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:49:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Site administrative broadcast to all lists and all
	list members - server wide
Message-ID: <570244400912211049m6a49b22fhdc5b96de6806bce9@mail.gmail.com>

I have searched for a way to send a "server-wide" broadcast message to all
admins and subscribers and found the following (which I have yet to try):

"Send a message with an Urgent: header that contains the admin password and
it's supposed to be sent as a direct message to all subscribers"

What I find a but confusing is how to specify an "Urgent" header.  Does this
person mean to say place "Urgent" in the subject line with the Admin
password?  In other words, I am not sure how to specify or manipulate a
message's "header" with Mailman.

Anybody have any ideas/thoughts or am I missing something obvious?

Thanks for any and all help - Brandon

From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Mon Dec 21 20:23:36 2009
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:23:36 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Site administrative broadcast to all lists
	and	all list members - server wide
In-Reply-To: <570244400912211049m6a49b22fhdc5b96de6806bce9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <570244400912211049m6a49b22fhdc5b96de6806bce9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1261423416.6829.37.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-12-21 at 11:49 -0700, Brandon Rodak wrote:
> What I find a but confusing is how to specify an "Urgent" header.  Does this
> person mean to say place "Urgent" in the subject line with the Admin
> password?  In other words, I am not sure how to specify or manipulate a
> message's "header" with Mailman.

This is from the code comments in the file CalcRecips.py.

    # Support for urgent messages, which bypasses digests and disabled
    # delivery and forces an immediate delivery to all members Right Now.  We
    # are specifically /not/ allowing the site admins password to work here
    # because we want to discourage the practice of sending the site admin
    # password through email in the clear. (see also Approve.py)
 
I would assume, from this, that the mechanism is the same as for an
"Approved:" header or pseudo-header.  If you have a mail program that
can add arbitrary headers then you can add a true mail header, with
"Urgent: some_password".  If your mail program won't do this, you can
use a pseudo-header by putting "Urgent: password" as the very first line
in a post to the list ('password' is either the admin or moderator
password.  There must be no lines above this pseudo-header in the email
body, and it must be left-justified.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       |  "We are all broken  |     PGP public key
FMP Computer Services |   toasters, but we   |      available at
512-259-1190          | still manage to make |<http://pubkeys.fmp.com>
http://www.fmp.com    |        toast"        |
                      |    (Cheryl Dehut)    |



From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec 21 20:23:56 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:23:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Site administrative broadcast to all lists and
	alllist members - server wide
In-Reply-To: <570244400912211049m6a49b22fhdc5b96de6806bce9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912211123560156d473e694@msapiro>

Brandon Rodak wrote:

>I have searched for a way to send a "server-wide" broadcast message to all
>admins and subscribers and found the following (which I have yet to try):
>
>"Send a message with an Urgent: header that contains the admin password and
>it's supposed to be sent as a direct message to all subscribers"
>
>What I find a but confusing is how to specify an "Urgent" header.  Does this
>person mean to say place "Urgent" in the subject line with the Admin
>password?  In other words, I am not sure how to specify or manipulate a
>message's "header" with Mailman.


First, a few things about an 'urgent' message. This is a list function,
not a server function. If you send an urgent message to a list, it
only goes to the members of that list. If you send it to all lists,
members of more that one list will be sent multiple copies.

Also, urgent messages are not sent to owners or moderators unless they
are also list members. To mail the owners and moderators of a list,
send mail to LISTNAME-owner at ...

That said, the Urgent: <password> header is just that. It must be added
to your message as a header. Unlike Approved:, it can't be a
pseudo-header in an initial body line, It must be a real message
header. How you do this is a function of your MUA (mail client). Mutt
makes it fairly easy to edit a raw message before it is sent and add
headers. With thunderbird, you can go to Tools -> Options -> Advanced
-> Config Editor... and add Urgent to mail.compose.other.header to add
it to the To:, Cc:, etc pulldown list in mail composition.

Other MUAs such as I think MS Outlook and most webmail clients do not
provide a way to do this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com  Mon Dec 21 20:33:28 2009
From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:33:28 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Site administrative broadcast to all lists
	and	alllist members - server wide
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912211123560156d473e694@msapiro>
References: <PC195200912211123560156d473e694@msapiro>
Message-ID: <1261424008.6829.40.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2009-12-21 at 11:23 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> That said, the Urgent: <password> header is just that. It must be added
> to your message as a header. Unlike Approved:, it can't be a
> pseudo-header in an initial body line, It must be a real message
> header.

Thanks for the clarification.  I mis-spoke in my post, just prior to
yours, in suggesting that this might work with a pseudo-header.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley       | "Never expect the people who caused a problem
FMP Computer Services |  to solve it."  - Albert Einstein
512-259-1190          |        
http://www.fmp.com    |


From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Mon Dec 21 22:18:04 2009
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:18:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <4B2FBC96.4080306@zone12.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
	<4B2FBC96.4080306@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <4B2FE60C.2060608@libertytrek.org>

On 2009-12-21, Terri Oda (terri at zone12.com) wrote:
> Not yet, but I'd like there to be,

Me too... I spent weeks trying to find something a while back...

From tinker123 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 21 16:43:40 2009
From: tinker123 at gmail.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:43:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trouble enabling HTML messages.
Message-ID: <171bb3f10912210743k6d9a6d6cl453ce09d003bbb5b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi.

I have a mailing list running in
GNU Mailman version 2.1.11

I would like for my users to be able to send HTML emails to the list.

In the section  called "Content Filtering"   I checked "No" to the question

++++++++++++++++++
Should Mailman convert text/html parts to plain text? This conversion
happens after MIME attachments have been stripped.
+++++++++++++++++++

And

I checked "No" for the question

++++++++++++++++++++++
Should Mailman collapse multipart/alternative to its first part content?
(Edit collapse_alternatives)
++++++++++++++++++++++++

No luck.   The HTML still gets strippped .

Is there anything else I can try?

Thanks in advance

Steve

From Ted.Fitzpatrick at dof.ca.gov  Mon Dec 21 19:59:21 2009
From: Ted.Fitzpatrick at dof.ca.gov (Fitzpatrick, Ted)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:59:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 2 Emails
Message-ID: <4868C7E43C828B43BD87AAB46798C37402E8285739@MAILBOX-CCR-1.DOF.FINANCE>

Hi,

Why do some subscribers receive 2 emails from the mailing list? 1 email from listname at ourdomain, and a duplicate message from listname-bounces at ourdomain ?

Thanks!

Ted


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec 21 23:29:41 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:29:41 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trouble enabling HTML messages.
In-Reply-To: <171bb3f10912210743k6d9a6d6cl453ce09d003bbb5b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912211429410921051d0a82@msapiro>

Steve wrote:
>
>I would like for my users to be able to send HTML emails to the list.
>
>In the section  called "Content Filtering"   I checked "No" to the question
>
>++++++++++++++++++
>Should Mailman convert text/html parts to plain text? This conversion
>happens after MIME attachments have been stripped.
>+++++++++++++++++++
>
>And
>
>I checked "No" for the question
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++
>Should Mailman collapse multipart/alternative to its first part content?
>(Edit collapse_alternatives)
>++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>No luck.   The HTML still gets strippped .
>
>Is there anything else I can try?


Add

text/html

to pass_mime_types and make sure that pass_mime_types includes
multipart/alternative or preferably, just multipart or set
filter_content to No.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec 21 23:40:00 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:40:00 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 2 Emails
In-Reply-To: <4868C7E43C828B43BD87AAB46798C37402E8285739@MAILBOX-CCR-1.DOF.FINANCE>
Message-ID: <PC195200912211440000250051d07ba@msapiro>

Fitzpatrick, Ted wrote:
>
>Why do some subscribers receive 2 emails from the mailing list? 1 email from listname at ourdomain, and a duplicate message from listname-bounces at ourdomain ?


I am guessing you have General Options -> anonymous_list set to Yes -
otherwise at least one of these would be from the poster's address
instead of listname at ourdomain.

There are actually two parts to your question. The listname-bounces
address is set as the envelope sender of the message and also in the
Sender: header for automated bounce processing. See the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/RoA9> for more on this.

The duplication is almost certainly caused by filtering/filing rules in
the MUAs (mail clients) of the recipients of the duplicate messages.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From johnf at net2000.com.au  Mon Dec 21 23:44:44 2009
From: johnf at net2000.com.au (John Fitzsimons)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:44:44 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <20091221145225.GY3079@amyl.org.uk>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
	<20091221145225.GY3079@amyl.org.uk>
Message-ID: <nftvi5d6fsr448gck631ki7jqrbm38kjjj@4ax.com>

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:52:25 +0000, Adam McGreggor wrote:
 
>On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 06:49:44PM +1100, John Fitzsimons wrote:

Hi Adam,

>> Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman
>> mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and
>> vica versa ?

< snip >

>The Wordpress thingy turns email -> database record(s), from which it
>ought to be moderately easy to map those fields to appropriate ones
>for the forum.

< snip >

Well, there are a few "issues" here. I am totally unfamiliar with how
Wordpress works, I wouldn't know how/where to map anything, I don't
have root access to the hosting site that has my Mailman install.

Those three items make things a bit difficult.  :-(

>I can't really think of a way to maintain an up-to date email thread
>in a forum, allowing posting to both; although, an afterthought may be

Well, it has been done a number of times. With a number of forums. The
trouble is that upgrading forums generally stops things working and/or
one needs root access to install. Something not everyone has.

Here is an example IF one wants to pay the huge cost of their
software..

http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=151222

>to use NNTP for both... but that's quite perverse. 

I would prefer to/from NNTP. Think I might start a new thread for
that.

>(Do forum softwares still support NNTP feeds, or does one need to use
>"RSS" or "XML" or one of those other new-fangled things to import
>content?)

>Others may have better 'solutions'.

Thanks for your comments.

Regards, John.

From johnf at net2000.com.au  Mon Dec 21 23:52:54 2009
From: johnf at net2000.com.au (John Fitzsimons)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:52:54 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <86CF6924-7CD1-47F5-A975-6A35F82ECD71@python.org>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
	<86CF6924-7CD1-47F5-A975-6A35F82ECD71@python.org>
Message-ID: <vmuvi59pttbv1bqgu6hbql995gmk1cf8pa@4ax.com>

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:06:29 -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote:
 
>On Dec 21, 2009, at 2:49 AM, John Fitzsimons wrote:

>> Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman
>> mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and
>> vica versa ?

>I would invite anybody interested in exploring this to join us over in mailman-developers.  This is something I'd love to see for Mailman 3.

>-Barry

Would there be any point in us "non programmers" doing that ? Apart
from being unable to contribute much, if anything, we would then need
to read a whole pile of posts that are probably too "technical" to be
of much interest.

FWIW I suggest the following...

A new mailing list specifically for this.

A new "announce" mailing list to announce when a "release" is ready
for testing.


Regards, John.

From brodak at gmail.com  Mon Dec 21 23:57:00 2009
From: brodak at gmail.com (Brandon Rodak)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:57:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Site administrative broadcast to all lists and
	alllist members - server wide
Message-ID: <570244400912211457t674715e3h40bd089df8852a54@mail.gmail.com>

Lindsay and Mark:

Thanks for your advice on the broadcast message and how to add the
appropriate header.  I guess my next question would be if it is possible at
all to send such a broadcast message to all lists (and thus all list
members) at one time.  I have 60 + distinct/unique lists and would not want
to send the same message sixty times if I did not have to - Any ideas?

Thanks again - Brandon

From johnf at net2000.com.au  Mon Dec 21 23:58:57 2009
From: johnf at net2000.com.au (John Fitzsimons)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:58:57 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <4B2FBC96.4080306@zone12.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
	<4B2FBC96.4080306@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <53vvi5pocln2m5rni503mnh9ai34lfns1k@4ax.com>

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:21:10 -0500, Terri Oda wrote:
 
>John Fitzsimons wrote:

Hi Terri,

>> Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman
>> mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and
>> vica versa ?
 
>> I believe that something like this could work with phpbb2 but not the
>> current release. Can anyone help please ?

>Not yet, but I'd like there to be, because I think a web forum could be 
>a more user-friendly (or at least user-familiar) way for us to handle 
>archives.  I started looking in to it some time ago, but life happened 
>and the code I'd hoped to write didn't.

I HATE web forums but know people who like them. The advantage 
of a web forum <> email situation is IMO "participation".

Suppose 10 people who dislike forums are on an email list.
Suppose 10 people who dislike email lists are on a forum.

With mirroring all 20 could be talking to each other. Each using
his/her preferred posting method.

Lastly, some people prefer both. Eg. email from home and web forum 
posting from work.

Regards, John.

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Tue Dec 22 00:18:57 2009
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:18:57 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <u4vvi5949no98ectmbllgpdm96n1u2lb38@4ax.com>

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:49:44 +1100, John Fitzsimons
<johnf at net2000.com.au> wrote:

>
>Hi,
>
>Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman
>mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and
>vica versa ?
>
>I believe that something like this could work with phpbb2 but not the
>current release. Can anyone help please ?
>
>Regards, John

I am currently working on a bridge for phpBB3. What I am attempting to
do is have messages from the list be put into forums based on "topics"
and into threads based on reference-id/subjects and reply back to the
list with messages posted to specified forums (adding a specified tag
for topic detection).

I will post word when/if I have significant progress.

Richard Damon

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Tue Dec 22 00:31:00 2009
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 23:31:00 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <nftvi5d6fsr448gck631ki7jqrbm38kjjj@4ax.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
	<20091221145225.GY3079@amyl.org.uk>
	<nftvi5d6fsr448gck631ki7jqrbm38kjjj@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20091221233059.GB3079@amyl.org.uk>

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 09:44:44AM +1100, John Fitzsimons wrote:
> Well, there are a few "issues" here. I am totally unfamiliar with how
> Wordpress works, I wouldn't know how/where to map anything, I don't
> have root access to the hosting site that has my Mailman install.

    http://core.svn.wordpress.org/trunk/wp-mail.php

is the handler in Wordpress; it's quite well documented, in-line, even
if you don't understand PHP. If you know how/where your forum sorts
stuff, that might be a starting point. It doesn't need root;
although the script is typically hit by cron. 

> Those three items make things a bit difficult.  :-(
> 
> >I can't really think of a way to maintain an up-to date email thread
> >in a forum, allowing posting to both; although, an afterthought may be
> 
> Well, it has been done a number of times. With a number of forums. The
> trouble is that upgrading forums generally stops things working and/or
> one needs root access to install. Something not everyone has.
> 
> Here is an example IF one wants to pay the huge cost of their
> software..
> 
> http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=151222

well that's another candidate for justtellmethefuckingprice.com... I
really should find some time to build that.

Reading the first bit of that thread (my eyes! my eyes!), that
modification appears to be something that polls a mailbox for new
stuff and processes it as it arrives, and pushes stuff from the forum
back to mail. The "setup a separate email address to use for each
forum that you have this enabled for" line makes me think that.

> >to use NNTP for both... but that's quite perverse. 
> 
> I would prefer to/from NNTP. Think I might start a new thread for
> that.

Based on the above (the plugin), IMAP(S) might also work.

-- 
``In Lent she ate onion soup and gave up drink; but
  otherwise she must have drunk the maximum compatible
  with survival and sanity.''
  (Telegraph Obit of Jennifer Paterson, one of the 'Two Fat Ladies')

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 22 00:43:45 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:43:45 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Site administrative broadcast to all lists
	andalllist members - server wide
In-Reply-To: <570244400912211457t674715e3h40bd089df8852a54@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC19520091221154345092183827e46@msapiro>

Brandon Rodak wrote:
>
>Thanks for your advice on the broadcast message and how to add the
>appropriate header.  I guess my next question would be if it is possible at
>all to send such a broadcast message to all lists (and thus all list
>members) at one time.  I have 60 + distinct/unique lists and would not want
>to send the same message sixty times if I did not have to - Any ideas?


bin/find_member . | grep -v "^ " | sed "s/ found in://" | \
xargs mail < message_file -s "The Subject"

If you want to include owners and moderators who aren't list members,

#!bin/sh
bin/find_member . | grep -v "^ " | sed "s/ found in://" > member_file
bin/list_owners -m > owner_moderator_file
sort -u member_file owner_moderator_file | \
xargs mail < message_file -s "The Subject"


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Dec 22 01:43:50 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:43:50 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Site administrative broadcast to all lists
	and	alllist members - server wide
In-Reply-To: <570244400912211457t674715e3h40bd089df8852a54@mail.gmail.com>
References: <570244400912211457t674715e3h40bd089df8852a54@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87eimnsurd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brandon Rodak writes:

 > members) at one time.  I have 60 + distinct/unique lists and would not want
 > to send the same message sixty times if I did not have to - Any ideas?

Make an umbrella list, ie, the subscribers are the 60+ lists.
Optionally add the LIST-owner addresses.  Set it up as announce-only.

The main glitch here is that the umbrella list will probably clean out
the Urgent header since it contains a password, and the 60+ lists will
deliver the message as usual (including digest processing if the users
have that enabled.  Fixing this (if I am correct) would probably
require customizing the Mailman code a bit.



From johnf at net2000.com.au  Tue Dec 22 01:36:32 2009
From: johnf at net2000.com.au (John Fitzsimons)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:36:32 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] NNTP server for "local" newsgroups ?
Message-ID: <r350j515dfjm5d2913p57aib2b7g6or0i8@4ax.com>


In another thread we were talking about Mailman to web forum 
options. As Mailman can manage NNTP I wondered whether anyone
here had come across an NNTP server for "local" (not usenet)
newsgroups ?

One that doesn't require root access and could be put on a "hosted"
Linux site. I have doubts that such a thing exists but if it does then
I thought someone here may have come across it.   :-)


Regards, John.

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Dec 22 01:49:55 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:49:55 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <vmuvi59pttbv1bqgu6hbql995gmk1cf8pa@4ax.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
	<86CF6924-7CD1-47F5-A975-6A35F82ECD71@python.org>
	<vmuvi59pttbv1bqgu6hbql995gmk1cf8pa@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <87d427suh8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

John Fitzsimons writes:

 > FWIW I suggest the following...
 > 
 > A new mailing list specifically for this.
 > 
 > A new "announce" mailing list to announce when a "release" is ready
 > for testing.

There isn't enough traffic on mailman-developers to justify either of
those IMO.  I certainly wouldn't subscribe to either one myself, and I
suspect Barry himself would forget they exist -- he didn't say he was
planning to do any coding himself, almost certainly not soon.

If you are not going to participate in the development list (and given
what you've said so far, you'd be welcome but I think likely it would
not be an efficient use of *your* time), wait for an announcement here
and/or on the generic announce list (ISTR there is a mailman-announce
list).



From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Dec 22 01:59:40 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:59:40 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <87bphrsu0z.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

John Fitzsimons writes:

 > Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman
 > mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and
 > vica versa ?

Precisely what does a "web forum" do?  Would Trac or Roundup serve?

These are nominally "issue trackers" (and Trac is bundled with a wiki
which might or might not be attractive for your purpose).  However,
what they basically do is manage threads.  Roundup is quite good at
integrating mail and web submissions at least for its purpose (but it
doesn't thread automatically; instead, each issue might be thought of
as a manually specified thread).  I don't know how well Trac handles
mail submissions, I only use the web interface of the Tracs I deal
with.

Roundup is a hairball, but very very configurable.  Trac is a lot more
slick but at least in the incarnation where I met it
(bugs.macosforge.org circa summer 2007) it was a ponderous
unconfigurable beast requiring massive admin attention to get the
smallest tweak implemented (or maybe it's just that the MacPorts folks
can't admin their way out of a paper bag, I've seen other symptoms to
suggest that's the case, so don't take this as entirely negative on
Trac -- not to mention that lots of people love it).

I've briefly mentioned integrating some Roundup functions with the
mailman interface to Barry but that hasn't gone anywhere yet.

From kremels at kreme.com  Tue Dec 22 02:17:26 2009
From: kremels at kreme.com (LuKreme)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:17:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] NNTP server for "local" newsgroups ?
In-Reply-To: <r350j515dfjm5d2913p57aib2b7g6or0i8@4ax.com>
References: <r350j515dfjm5d2913p57aib2b7g6or0i8@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <7427D2BB-8D8F-4E1B-A2E4-CC979465425F@kreme.com>

On 21-Dec-2009, at 17:36, John Fitzsimons wrote:
> In another thread we were talking about Mailman to web forum 
> options. As Mailman can manage NNTP I wondered whether anyone
> here had come across an NNTP server for "local" (not usenet)
> newsgroups ?


I'd start with this search:

http://www.google.com/search?q=nntpd


-- 
What are you, Ghouls? There are no dead students here. This week.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Dec 22 03:28:58 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:28:58 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  NNTP server for "local" newsgroups ?
In-Reply-To: <r350j515dfjm5d2913p57aib2b7g6or0i8@4ax.com>
References: <r350j515dfjm5d2913p57aib2b7g6or0i8@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <873a33spw5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

John Fitzsimons writes:

 > In another thread we were talking about Mailman to web forum 
 > options. As Mailman can manage NNTP I wondered whether anyone
 > here had come across an NNTP server for "local" (not usenet)
 > newsgroups ?

Just use any old NNTP server and block access from the outside at the
firewall.

 > One that doesn't require root access and could be put on a "hosted"
 > Linux site. I have doubts that such a thing exists but if it does then
 > I thought someone here may have come across it.   :-)

Most such software has a configuration option to specify the port,
since that's a common way to test modified software.

From barry at python.org  Tue Dec 22 03:57:39 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 21:57:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <vmuvi59pttbv1bqgu6hbql995gmk1cf8pa@4ax.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
	<86CF6924-7CD1-47F5-A975-6A35F82ECD71@python.org>
	<vmuvi59pttbv1bqgu6hbql995gmk1cf8pa@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <81FE7862-D6EF-4E31-AA71-84E1BCDD639D@python.org>

On Dec 21, 2009, at 5:52 PM, John Fitzsimons wrote:

> A new mailing list specifically for this.

I don't think there's any justification right now for a separate  
list.  mailman-developers does not get that much traffic.

-Barry

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From barry at python.org  Tue Dec 22 04:13:15 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:13:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] NNTP server for "local" newsgroups ?
In-Reply-To: <r350j515dfjm5d2913p57aib2b7g6or0i8@4ax.com>
References: <r350j515dfjm5d2913p57aib2b7g6or0i8@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <C3AD0FF0-27D4-42E1-9F29-D0B0B41FBA24@python.org>

On Dec 21, 2009, at 7:36 PM, John Fitzsimons wrote:

> In another thread we were talking about Mailman to web forum
> options. As Mailman can manage NNTP I wondered whether anyone
> here had come across an NNTP server for "local" (not usenet)
> newsgroups ?

Yes.  I intend to explore using Twisted in Mailman 3 to provide NNTP  
and IMAP access to Mailman archives.

-Barry

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From mark at bradakis.com  Tue Dec 22 04:01:12 2009
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 20:01:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <87bphrsu0z.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
	<87bphrsu0z.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <4B303678.6020803@bradakis.com>

Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Precisely what does a "web forum" do?  Would Trac or Roundup serve?
>
>   

Are you seriously asking about what are web forums?  There's about 38.63
gazillion of them on the net.  A couple I'm working on are at

http://www.team.net/forums

and

http://wasatchfoodies.com


If I misunderstood your query, I do apologize.

mjb.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Dec 22 09:23:15 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 17:23:15 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <4B303678.6020803@bradakis.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
	<87bphrsu0z.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4B303678.6020803@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <87zl5bqux8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark J Bradakis writes:
 > Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
 > > Precisely what does a "web forum" do?  Would Trac or Roundup serve?

Sorry, I omitted the words "for you".  I'm interested in the OP's
requirements, not in the available software, which matches his
requirements more or less closely (all too often, "less").

 > Are you seriously asking about what are web forums?  There's about 38.63
 > gazillion of them on the net.

38.63 gazillion = 1 plague, if I recall my biometric units
correctly.<wink>

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Tue Dec 22 13:47:40 2009
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 07:47:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <4B303678.6020803@bradakis.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>	<87bphrsu0z.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4B303678.6020803@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <4B30BFEC.5020608@libertytrek.org>

On 2009-12-21 10:01 PM, Mark J Bradakis wrote:
> Are you seriously asking about what are web forums?  There's about 38.63
> gazillion of them on the net.  A couple I'm working on are at
> 
> http://www.team.net/forums
> 
> and
> 
> http://wasatchfoodies.com

Please - not to start a 'distro' war, but if work is going to be done, I
hope it will be done in a modular fashion so that other forum software
(with a plugin architecture) will be able to work with it.

I wouldn't touch phpBB again with a ten meter optical fiber - and yes,
this is from personal experience, and lots of corrupted data - and
googling will reveal tons of similar experiences.

Simple Machines is the one to pick if you are going to support only one.

-- 

Best regards,

Charles

From barry at python.org  Tue Dec 22 16:00:35 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:00:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <4B30BFEC.5020608@libertytrek.org>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>	<87bphrsu0z.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4B303678.6020803@bradakis.com> <4B30BFEC.5020608@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <94215CC4-E7C6-4765-9C55-85848673C228@python.org>

On Dec 22, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:

> Please - not to start a 'distro' war, but if work is going to be done, I
> hope it will be done in a modular fashion so that other forum software
> (with a plugin architecture) will be able to work with it.

Absolutely, just like we support multiple MTAs, web servers, etc.

-Barry


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 22 20:02:18 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:02:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.13 released
Message-ID: <4B3117BA.9080108@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I am happy to announce the final release  of Mailman 2.1.13.

Mailman 2.1.13 is a bug fix release and contains a new localization for
the Asturian language.

Python 2.4 is the minimum supported, but Python 2.5.or 2.6 is recommended.

See the changelog at <https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/2.1.13> for
more details.

Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and
e-newsletters. Mailman is used for all the python.org and
SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.

For more information, please see:

http://www.list.org
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman

Mailman 2.1.13 can be downloaded from

https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/
http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/

- -- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From johnf at net2000.com.au  Tue Dec 22 23:35:35 2009
From: johnf at net2000.com.au (John Fitzsimons)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:35:35 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <87bphrsu0z.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
	<87bphrsu0z.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <f9e2j5d50jeb82qi3u1lqrp1r0dhab6gus@4ax.com>

On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:59:40 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
 
>John Fitzsimons writes:

> > Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman
> > mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and
> > vica versa ?

>Precisely what does a "web forum" do?  

Have threaded web discussions. Eg. 

http://www.phpbb.com/about/

http://www.phorum.org/ etc.

>Would Trac 

Never heard of it. Doesn't look remotely like the above. IMO clearly
for those who are familiar with Linux and/or are programmers.

>or Roundup serve?

Much the same thing. I don't even see any web forums at that site.

>These are nominally "issue trackers" (and Trac is bundled with a wiki
>which might or might not be attractive for your purpose).  However,
>what they basically do is manage threads.  Roundup is quite good at
>integrating mail and web submissions at least for its purpose (but it
>doesn't thread automatically; instead, each issue might be thought of
>as a manually specified thread).  I don't know how well Trac handles
>mail submissions, I only use the web interface of the Tracs I deal
>with.

>Roundup is a hairball, 

Sounds like something one should warn one's cat about. Or one's
barber.

>but very very configurable.  

If one is a Linux guru. That isn't me.

>Trac is a lot more
>slick but at least in the incarnation where I met it
>(bugs.macosforge.org circa summer 2007) it was a ponderous
>unconfigurable beast requiring massive admin attention to get the
>smallest tweak implemented (or maybe it's just that the MacPorts folks
>can't admin their way out of a paper bag, I've seen other symptoms to
>suggest that's the case, so don't take this as entirely negative on
>Trac -- not to mention that lots of people love it).

>I've briefly mentioned integrating some Roundup functions with the
>mailman interface to Barry but that hasn't gone anywhere yet.

I have mentioned previously that if something needs root access, or
familiarity with Linux, then it is of little use to me.

Regards, John.

From johnf at net2000.com.au  Tue Dec 22 23:35:35 2009
From: johnf at net2000.com.au (John Fitzsimons)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:35:35 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <nvf2j5ls87072er19kk600svgm3mnmqjdk@4ax.com>

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:49:44 +1100, John Fitzsimons wrote:
 

>Hi,

>Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman
>mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and
>vica versa ?

< snip >

Since my post I have come across...

http://www.phorum.org/phorum5/read.php?62,140380

it says....

"this allows for two way integration with mailinglists. "


The comments..."shell / cronjob access" and "raw shell access" 
suggest that it wouldn't work for me on a hosted site.  :-(


Regards, John.

From johnf at net2000.com.au  Tue Dec 22 23:35:36 2009
From: johnf at net2000.com.au (John Fitzsimons)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:35:36 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <4B30BFEC.5020608@libertytrek.org>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>	<87bphrsu0z.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4B303678.6020803@bradakis.com> <4B30BFEC.5020608@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <9of2j5heh2uvbbf183jathifpreqp795pn@4ax.com>

On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 07:47:40 -0500, Tanstaafl wrote:
 
< snip >

>if work is going to be done, I
>hope it will be done in a modular fashion so that other forum software
>(with a plugin architecture) will be able to work with it.

< snip >

>Simple Machines is the one to pick if you are going to support only one.

Looks like an example of very good forum software. Thanks for the
reference.  :-)


Regards, John.

From johnf at net2000.com.au  Tue Dec 22 23:35:37 2009
From: johnf at net2000.com.au (John Fitzsimons)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:35:37 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] NNTP server for "local" newsgroups ?
In-Reply-To: <C3AD0FF0-27D4-42E1-9F29-D0B0B41FBA24@python.org>
References: <r350j515dfjm5d2913p57aib2b7g6or0i8@4ax.com>
	<C3AD0FF0-27D4-42E1-9F29-D0B0B41FBA24@python.org>
Message-ID: <pbg2j5544kovidb4vj0k05pf4bj869qcuu@4ax.com>

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:13:15 -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote:
 
>On Dec 21, 2009, at 7:36 PM, John Fitzsimons wrote:

Hi Barry,

>> In another thread we were talking about Mailman to web forum
>> options. As Mailman can manage NNTP I wondered whether anyone
>> here had come across an NNTP server for "local" (not usenet)
>> newsgroups ?

>Yes.  I intend to explore using Twisted in Mailman 3 to provide NNTP  
>and IMAP access to Mailman archives.

>-Barry

Would you mind explaining that a bit more please ? Would the end 
user need to install Twisted first to get NNTP access to Mailman
archives ?

When you say "archives" do you mean "old posts" ? Or would this
provide the "live" NNTP < > email list mirroring that I am looking 
for ?

As you appear to have already provided email to NNTP mirroring ability
eg. Gmane would your version 3 provide the install of an NNTP server
with the Mailman install ?

Sorry to ask so many dumb questions but I would really like to get a
better understanding of what you propose and whether it is likely to
give me the mirroring facilities I am after.

Bye the way, I don't know if the following helps, or not, but someone
who managed to get email < > web < > NNTP newsgroups working 
said..


"you can also make some changes to the way your web server is set up
so that your users can access your newsgroups through the same URL as
your web site. There is no need to include unsightly port numbers in
the URL. This can also overcome problems of people not being able
to read your newsgroups because of their firewall settings.

< snip >

we use the Apache web server with the mod_proxy module. Similar
approaches are available with most other web servers. For IIS, you
will either need Microsoft Proxy Server, Microsoft Internet
Acceleration Server, or a third-party ISAPI module (such as
http://www.isapirewrite.com/) to have the same effect.

< snip >

For details on how to set this up on your own web server, see the
Apache mod_proxy documentation or the documentation for whatever web
server or proxy server you are using, and look for details on how to
set up a "reverse proxy".

Don't know whether that helps, or is relevant to the discussion.


Regards, John.

From barry at python.org  Wed Dec 23 00:59:56 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:59:56 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] NNTP server for "local" newsgroups ?
In-Reply-To: <pbg2j5544kovidb4vj0k05pf4bj869qcuu@4ax.com>
References: <r350j515dfjm5d2913p57aib2b7g6or0i8@4ax.com>
	<C3AD0FF0-27D4-42E1-9F29-D0B0B41FBA24@python.org>
	<pbg2j5544kovidb4vj0k05pf4bj869qcuu@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <6C50D4FC-6287-4097-BE83-813C4E13EB13@python.org>

On Dec 22, 2009, at 5:35 PM, John Fitzsimons wrote:

> Would you mind explaining that a bit more please ? Would the end 
> user need to install Twisted first to get NNTP access to Mailman
> archives ?

The end user wouldn't but the system administrator for the Mailman site would.  It would be optional of course.

> When you say "archives" do you mean "old posts" ? Or would this
> provide the "live" NNTP < > email list mirroring that I am looking 
> for ?

Yes, old posts.  Of course, three seconds after the message is approved and being sent to the list membership, it's "old" :)

> As you appear to have already provided email to NNTP mirroring ability
> eg. Gmane would your version 3 provide the install of an NNTP server
> with the Mailman install ?

Well, there's a lot to work out with respect to packaging, but the idea is that you could run a local NNTP server that people could connect to with their newsreaders.  It would work very much like Gmane (though we'd have to work out posting via NNTP issues).

> "you can also make some changes to the way your web server is set up
> so that your users can access your newsgroups through the same URL as
> your web site. There is no need to include unsightly port numbers in
> the URL. This can also overcome problems of people not being able
> to read your newsgroups because of their firewall settings.
> 
> < snip >
> 
> we use the Apache web server with the mod_proxy module. Similar
> approaches are available with most other web servers. For IIS, you
> will either need Microsoft Proxy Server, Microsoft Internet
> Acceleration Server, or a third-party ISAPI module (such as
> http://www.isapirewrite.com/) to have the same effect.
> 
> < snip >
> 
> For details on how to set this up on your own web server, see the
> Apache mod_proxy documentation or the documentation for whatever web
> server or proxy server you are using, and look for details on how to
> set up a "reverse proxy".
> 
> Don't know whether that helps, or is relevant to the discussion.

Hmm, I'm not sure how it is relevant to NNTP access to the mailing lists.

-Barry


From johnf at net2000.com.au  Wed Dec 23 01:21:53 2009
From: johnf at net2000.com.au (John Fitzsimons)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:21:53 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] NNTP server for "local" newsgroups ?
In-Reply-To: <6C50D4FC-6287-4097-BE83-813C4E13EB13@python.org>
References: <r350j515dfjm5d2913p57aib2b7g6or0i8@4ax.com>
	<C3AD0FF0-27D4-42E1-9F29-D0B0B41FBA24@python.org>
	<pbg2j5544kovidb4vj0k05pf4bj869qcuu@4ax.com>
	<6C50D4FC-6287-4097-BE83-813C4E13EB13@python.org>
Message-ID: <95o2j556g0c9ok3m6hq6lp24bup8cb267k@4ax.com>

On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:59:56 -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote:
 
>On Dec 22, 2009, at 5:35 PM, John Fitzsimons wrote:

Hi Barry,

Thank you for explaining things more.

< snip >

>> As you appear to have already provided email to NNTP mirroring ability
>> eg. Gmane would your version 3 provide the install of an NNTP server
>> with the Mailman install ?

>Well, there's a lot to work out with respect to packaging, but the idea is that you could run a local NNTP server that people could connect to with their newsreaders. 

One can run "a local NNTP server" now. That connects to Mailman. I
assume that you are meaning that if Twisted were installed then
Twisted, or will it be Mailman, would provide the server ? 

Or are we not talking about an NNTP server at all ? Just a conversion
of protocols in some way ?

> It would work very much like Gmane (though we'd have to work out posting via NNTP issues).

< snip >

Okay, but I am assuming that Gmane has port 119 open. Many sites that
provide Mailman wouldn't have it open. How could that be overcome ?

Regards, John.

From barry at python.org  Wed Dec 23 02:15:40 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 20:15:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] NNTP server for "local" newsgroups ?
In-Reply-To: <95o2j556g0c9ok3m6hq6lp24bup8cb267k@4ax.com>
References: <r350j515dfjm5d2913p57aib2b7g6or0i8@4ax.com>
	<C3AD0FF0-27D4-42E1-9F29-D0B0B41FBA24@python.org>
	<pbg2j5544kovidb4vj0k05pf4bj869qcuu@4ax.com>
	<6C50D4FC-6287-4097-BE83-813C4E13EB13@python.org>
	<95o2j556g0c9ok3m6hq6lp24bup8cb267k@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <D2CBEFB9-FFE2-4142-B43B-687136685F06@python.org>

On Dec 22, 2009, at 7:21 PM, John Fitzsimons wrote:

> One can run "a local NNTP server" now. That connects to Mailman. I
> assume that you are meaning that if Twisted were installed then
> Twisted, or will it be Mailman, would provide the server ? 

Twisted would provide the server.  The only reason I'm thinking Twisted is because it might be easier to configure permissions for and integrate with Mailman.  But there might be other options, e.g. along the lines of using dovecot for IMAP.

> Okay, but I am assuming that Gmane has port 119 open. Many sites that
> provide Mailman wouldn't have it open. How could that be overcome ?

Well, you'd have to open the appropriate port.  Gmane is a fine service, but it's run by a party you don't control.  The idea here is to run a server that you do control for sites that want to do that.

-Barry


From johnf at net2000.com.au  Wed Dec 23 05:24:36 2009
From: johnf at net2000.com.au (John Fitzsimons)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:24:36 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] NNTP server for "local" newsgroups ?
In-Reply-To: <D2CBEFB9-FFE2-4142-B43B-687136685F06@python.org>
References: <r350j515dfjm5d2913p57aib2b7g6or0i8@4ax.com>
	<C3AD0FF0-27D4-42E1-9F29-D0B0B41FBA24@python.org>
	<pbg2j5544kovidb4vj0k05pf4bj869qcuu@4ax.com>
	<6C50D4FC-6287-4097-BE83-813C4E13EB13@python.org>
	<95o2j556g0c9ok3m6hq6lp24bup8cb267k@4ax.com>
	<D2CBEFB9-FFE2-4142-B43B-687136685F06@python.org>
Message-ID: <fr53j5les4iav49dlvcfifppo9mcfi8lv3@4ax.com>

On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 20:15:40 -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote:
 
>On Dec 22, 2009, at 7:21 PM, John Fitzsimons wrote:

>> One can run "a local NNTP server" now. That connects to Mailman. I
>> assume that you are meaning that if Twisted were installed then
>> Twisted, or will it be Mailman, would provide the server ? 

>Twisted would provide the server.  

Okay.

>The only reason I'm thinking Twisted is because it might be easier to configure permissions for and integrate with Mailman.

Okay.

>But there might be other options, e.g. along the lines of using dovecot for IMAP.

>> Okay, but I am assuming that Gmane has port 119 open. Many sites that
>> provide Mailman wouldn't have it open. How could that be overcome ?

>Well, you'd have to open the appropriate port.

Okay, IF an NNTP setup were part of Mailman then that would IMO
encourage a huge number of hosters, that currently install Mailman,
to consider opening that port. Particularly as you could put in the
installation documents that the Mailman NNTP facility requires it.

You would be doing a gigantic service to newsgroup fans around the
world. I sure hope you can manage this venture. 

> Gmane is a fine service, 

Yep, as a "proof of concept" situation it works particularly well. Web
forum <> newsgroup post <> email mirroring. Few other people have
managed that.

>but it's run by a party you don't control.  

Yes, and if one doesn't use it there is nobody else anywhere who can
provide a similar service. Even for a cost.  :-(

>The idea here is to run a server that you do control for sites that want to do that.

>-Barry

Well, if you pull this off, then IMO Mailman will blow competing
products out of the water. Both freeware and payware.   :-)

Regards, John.
  

From johnf at net2000.com.au  Wed Dec 23 06:29:08 2009
From: johnf at net2000.com.au (John Fitzsimons)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:29:08 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web access to Mailman.
Message-ID: <u2a3j51qk6bkkgebgduv4nmrh28h47mn0m@4ax.com>


I am new to Mailman so there is something I didn't consider in the
recent web forum to Mailman discussions. The existing Mailman web
forum facility.

It seems to me that the majority of the Mailman to web work has
already been done. All that is needed is a "new post", and "reply"
button, addition to our mailing list archives page.

Admittedly "bare bones" but IMO a big help if people wanted to post
via the web in preference to an emailer.


Regards, John.

From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Dec 23 06:48:59 2009
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:48:59 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Meta: bringing along the newcomers
In-Reply-To: <87iqc4ton4.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <fed90af00912161336u251637d4ne09c2d87bab31fbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091217164437.GZ3079@amyl.org.uk>
	<fed90af00912170900w28035fafq1b46a855ef44827a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091217190013.GD3079@amyl.org.uk>
	<878wd06d27.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1261117781.6900.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<87iqc4ton4.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <DB423AC4-B999-42F8-9598-D83916FFDDDB@shub-internet.org>

On Dec 18, 2009, at 7:09 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> It's under 100 lines, of which almost half were cut-and-pasted from
> the existing FAQ 1.22.

Most of which I wrote, and which I probably was not in a particularly good mood when I wrote it.  It definitely needs re-working.

> Anyway, you're entirely missing the point.  I don't expect anybody to
> read FAQ 1.22 in advance of comitting a faux pas; this particular FAQ
> is mostly for pointing to *afterward*.

Indeed.  That is precisely the point.

--
Brad Knowles <bradknowles at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Dec 23 06:52:20 2009
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:52:20 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery
In-Reply-To: <26839632.post@talk.nabble.com>
References: <8e7982f70912171414q44d273d9hc903924591be5327@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091218003000.GE3079@amyl.org.uk>
	<4B2AD53B.2030309@tuunq.com> <26837773.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<877hsk6co5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<26839632.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <150AB728-118F-42C1-B9FE-23049632FF25@shub-internet.org>

On Dec 18, 2009, at 12:15 AM, Derrick Wooden wrote:

> I have been doing a lot of reading along that wise.  As a result I'm setting
> up the new server with no cPanel and will use Postfix as my MTA.  I will do
> a clean install of Mailman 2.13 so that I can be on the same page as most
> users.

It's not just the MTA.  It's also the configuration.  I could build a Sendmail configuration that could beat the pants off an out-of-the-box postfix configuration, if the list was large enough and I had enough hardware to do the job right.  I'm sure that we could find people who could do the same with Exim.

IMO, using postfix will give you a good initial default configuration and it won't take as much tweaking to improve the mail delivery performance, but that's just a personal opinion.

> I read in a 2004 (or earlier thread) where using MySQL db tables would also
> increase the speed.  I will also utilize this option.

I don't know of any way that MySQL would factor into this discussion.  Can you provide a reference?

--
Brad Knowles <bradknowles at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Dec 23 06:56:19 2009
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:56:19 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <3E871552-E8F7-4161-85B7-2E3536045C6F@shub-internet.org>

On Dec 21, 2009, at 1:49 AM, John Fitzsimons wrote:

> Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman
> mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and
> vica versa ?

Search the FAQ wizard for "web forum".  You should find a link to an article that talks about Joomla.  That's the best integration I know of, although I'm sure there are others.

> I believe that something like this could work with phpbb2 but not the
> current release. Can anyone help please ?

I'm not personally aware of anything, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

--
Brad Knowles <bradknowles at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


From bernd at petrovitsch.priv.at  Wed Dec 23 11:20:57 2009
From: bernd at petrovitsch.priv.at (Bernd Petrovitsch)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:20:57 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery
In-Reply-To: <4B2AD53B.2030309@tuunq.com>
References: <8e7982f70912171414q44d273d9hc903924591be5327@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091218003000.GE3079@amyl.org.uk>  <4B2AD53B.2030309@tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <1261563657.3480.84.camel@gimli.petrovitsch.priv.at>

On Don, 2009-12-17 at 17:04 -0800, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> Lots of it depends on the MTA (general opinion is that postfix seems to be 
> the fastest), connectivity, and list settings (personalized email will take 
Do I take the flame bait?;-)

Whatever you understand in detail under a "fast MTA" (and even if it
would be the case), it doesn't really matter IMHO because
a) Email/SMTP never was anywhere near "realtime" (though many people
   expect mails to be delivered in seconds),
b) if your local Internet connection is too small, it doesn't help to
   have the fastest MTA[0],
c) the local MTA resolves various hostnames and that could be "slow" and
   will involved timeouts (where every MTA out there just can wait)[0],
d) if your hardware (RAM, disks) are too small or slow, the MTA really
   can't do anything (and I expect all widespread MTAS to reasonably
   minimize the I/O and memory anyways). That may be irrelevant on the
   usual small mailserver with average nowadays hardware but if you have
   e.g. a small ISP with >25K mailboxes and (on the average) 1E6 mails
   per day ("after" using DNSBLs blocking lots of spam/viruses before
   even sending "EHLO"), it
   looks quite different,
e) b) for the remote MTA - but you have absolutely no influence on the 
   remote side[0],
f) c) for the remote MTA - but you have absolutely no influence on the 
   remote side[0],
g) the remote MTA may do extensive spam/virus checking, grey-listing,
   ... - taking time - causing "slow" mail delivery you have absolutely
   no influence on the remote side[0].
Of course the timeouts and waiting from above cost next to no
resources/performance locally (so the MTA(s) usually deliver several
emails in parallel without any problems as long as the box(es) do not
trash) but it costs total time (which makes email delivery "slow").

So I don't think that saving 10% (or even 50%) local "speed" will make a
significant difference (perhaps if you have a *really* large setup - but
even then deploying one more box is cheaper than investing a day to
improve the local performance. OK, saving a box is better for the world
as such ....).

	Bernd

[0]: And changing the local MTA won't solve that.
-- 
mobil: +43 664 4416156          http://bernd.petrovitsch.priv.at/
    Linux Software Entwicklung, Beratung und Dienstleistungen


From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Dec 23 11:50:15 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 19:50:15 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <94215CC4-E7C6-4765-9C55-85848673C228@python.org>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
	<87bphrsu0z.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4B303678.6020803@bradakis.com> <4B30BFEC.5020608@libertytrek.org>
	<94215CC4-E7C6-4765-9C55-85848673C228@python.org>
Message-ID: <87k4weq80o.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Barry Warsaw writes:
 > On Dec 22, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
 > 
 > > Please - not to start a 'distro' war, but if work is going to be done, I
 > > hope it will be done in a modular fashion so that other forum software
 > > (with a plugin architecture) will be able to work with it.
 > 
 > Absolutely, just like we support multiple MTAs, web servers, etc.

Sounds non-trivial.  ISTM that this would conflict with pluggable
archivers at least, and quite likely with other features of Mailman,
since the functionality of Mailman, archivers, and forums all overlap
substantially.



From lists at luigirosa.com  Wed Dec 23 11:36:51 2009
From: lists at luigirosa.com (Luigi Rosa)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:36:51 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery
In-Reply-To: <1261563657.3480.84.camel@gimli.petrovitsch.priv.at>
References: <8e7982f70912171414q44d273d9hc903924591be5327@mail.gmail.com>	<20091218003000.GE3079@amyl.org.uk>
	<4B2AD53B.2030309@tuunq.com>
	<1261563657.3480.84.camel@gimli.petrovitsch.priv.at>
Message-ID: <4B31F2C3.1030602@luigirosa.com>

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Bernd Petrovitsch said the following on 23/12/09 11:20:

> a) Email/SMTP never was anywhere near "realtime" (though many people
>    expect mails to be delivered in seconds),

Unfortunately, too much users tend to forget this basic concept: SMTP is not
designed to be an instant message service.


Ciao,
luigi

- -- 
/
+--[Luigi Rosa]--
\

Alexander Graham Bell is alive and well in New York,
and still waiting for a dial tone.
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From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Dec 23 14:38:41 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 22:38:41 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery
In-Reply-To: <1261563657.3480.84.camel@gimli.petrovitsch.priv.at>
References: <8e7982f70912171414q44d273d9hc903924591be5327@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091218003000.GE3079@amyl.org.uk> <4B2AD53B.2030309@tuunq.com>
	<1261563657.3480.84.camel@gimli.petrovitsch.priv.at>
Message-ID: <87eimlrese.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Bernd Petrovitsch writes:
 > On Don, 2009-12-17 at 17:04 -0800, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
 > > Lots of it depends on the MTA (general opinion is that postfix seems to be 
 > > the fastest), connectivity, and list settings (personalized email will take 
 > Do I take the flame bait?;-)
 > 
 > Whatever you understand in detail under a "fast MTA" (and even if it
 > would be the case), it doesn't really matter IMHO because

"Fast MTA" does have a meaningful definition in list management.  For
Mailman purposes, a "fast MTA" is one whose default settings keep the
pipe full and reduce the backlog quickly, and (secondarily) uses few
host resources in doing so.


From luca at improntedigitali.it  Wed Dec 23 10:53:20 2009
From: luca at improntedigitali.it (Lucafr)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:53:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  mailman moderation
Message-ID: <26897645.post@talk.nabble.com>


Hi all
I have a mailing list with mailman 2.1.5: the list is moderate and I would
like that the alert sent by mailman were not every day but in real time (I
would like the admin will receive the alert everytime somebody send a
message to the list).
Someone know if it is possinle and how?
Thanks in advanced
Luca
-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/mailman-moderation-tp26897645p26897645.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec 23 15:30:00 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:30:00 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman moderation
In-Reply-To: <26897645.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912230630000031ab41c05f@msapiro>

Lucafr wrote:

>I have a mailing list with mailman 2.1.5: the list is moderate and I would
>like that the alert sent by mailman were not every day but in real time (I
>would like the admin will receive the alert everytime somebody send a
>message to the list).


Go to the web admin interface General Options page and set

Should the list moderators get immediate notice of new requests, as
well as daily notices about collected ones?
(Details for admin_immed_notify)

to Yes.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From barry at python.org  Wed Dec 23 16:55:08 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:55:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <87k4weq80o.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
	<87bphrsu0z.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4B303678.6020803@bradakis.com> <4B30BFEC.5020608@libertytrek.org>
	<94215CC4-E7C6-4765-9C55-85848673C228@python.org>
	<87k4weq80o.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <1F44613B-FC08-4A5E-9543-61091F613874@python.org>

On Dec 23, 2009, at 5:50 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> Barry Warsaw writes:
>> On Dec 22, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
>> 
>>> Please - not to start a 'distro' war, but if work is going to be done, I
>>> hope it will be done in a modular fashion so that other forum software
>>> (with a plugin architecture) will be able to work with it.
>> 
>> Absolutely, just like we support multiple MTAs, web servers, etc.
> 
> Sounds non-trivial.  ISTM that this would conflict with pluggable
> archivers at least, and quite likely with other features of Mailman,
> since the functionality of Mailman, archivers, and forums all overlap
> substantially.

Mailman 3 is already more flexibly w.r.t. archivers, in the sense that we define an interface between Mailman and generic archiver, and then implement a number of modules to support everything from Pipermail to mail-archive.com to MHonArc.  We should take the same approach with forum integration.

-Barry


From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Dec 23 17:47:50 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 01:47:50 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <1F44613B-FC08-4A5E-9543-61091F613874@python.org>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
	<87bphrsu0z.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4B303678.6020803@bradakis.com> <4B30BFEC.5020608@libertytrek.org>
	<94215CC4-E7C6-4765-9C55-85848673C228@python.org>
	<87k4weq80o.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1F44613B-FC08-4A5E-9543-61091F613874@python.org>
Message-ID: <87aax9r615.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Barry Warsaw writes:

 > Mailman 3 is already more flexibly w.r.t. archivers, in the sense
 > that we define an interface between Mailman and generic archiver,
 > and then implement a number of modules to support everything from
 > Pipermail to mail-archive.com to MHonArc.  We should take the same
 > approach with forum integration.

Sure.  My point is that forum and archivers are likely to step on each
others' toes.  Isn't that the case?  I would think you want one or the
other, but not both.  Or am I just seeing bogies?




From barry at python.org  Wed Dec 23 18:01:27 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:01:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <87aax9r615.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
	<87bphrsu0z.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4B303678.6020803@bradakis.com> <4B30BFEC.5020608@libertytrek.org>
	<94215CC4-E7C6-4765-9C55-85848673C228@python.org>
	<87k4weq80o.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<1F44613B-FC08-4A5E-9543-61091F613874@python.org>
	<87aax9r615.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <6D638B0A-974E-433C-8CDD-8C14F6E1537E@python.org>

On Dec 23, 2009, at 11:47 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> Barry Warsaw writes:
> 
>> Mailman 3 is already more flexibly w.r.t. archivers, in the sense
>> that we define an interface between Mailman and generic archiver,
>> and then implement a number of modules to support everything from
>> Pipermail to mail-archive.com to MHonArc.  We should take the same
>> approach with forum integration.
> 
> Sure.  My point is that forum and archivers are likely to step on each
> others' toes.  Isn't that the case?  I would think you want one or the
> other, but not both.  Or am I just seeing bogies?

I don't know about bogies, but maybe overly festive elves? :)

I agree they overlap, but I think they're different media, and I think they serve different purposes.  They have to work together, but they can coexist.

-Barry



From derrickwooden at gmail.com  Wed Dec 23 18:24:01 2009
From: derrickwooden at gmail.com (Derrick Wooden)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:24:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery
In-Reply-To: <150AB728-118F-42C1-B9FE-23049632FF25@shub-internet.org>
References: <8e7982f70912171414q44d273d9hc903924591be5327@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091218003000.GE3079@amyl.org.uk>
	<4B2AD53B.2030309@tuunq.com> <26837773.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<877hsk6co5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<26839632.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<150AB728-118F-42C1-B9FE-23049632FF25@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <26904964.post@talk.nabble.com>



Brad Knowles-3 wrote:
> I don't know of any way that MySQL would factor into this discussion.  Can
> you provide a reference?
Brad, upon reading this thread again you are correct.  It was NOT implied
that MySQL would speed up email delivery, but rather MySQL would be a better
database solution.

Reference:
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/msg02401.html

Brad, I would be interested in contracting your services.  Please email me
off the forum.  derrickwooden AT gmail

I have a dedicated server that will solely be used for Mailman.  6GB of RAM,
Intel 2.6 GHz quad core.  Am interested in delivering email as fast as
possible.



Brad Knowles-3 wrote:
> 
> On Dec 18, 2009, at 12:15 AM, Derrick Wooden wrote:
> 
>> I have been doing a lot of reading along that wise.  As a result I'm
>> setting
>> up the new server with no cPanel and will use Postfix as my MTA.  I will
>> do
>> a clean install of Mailman 2.13 so that I can be on the same page as most
>> users.
> 
> It's not just the MTA.  It's also the configuration.  I could build a
> Sendmail configuration that could beat the pants off an out-of-the-box
> postfix configuration, if the list was large enough and I had enough
> hardware to do the job right.  I'm sure that we could find people who
> could do the same with Exim.
> 
> IMO, using postfix will give you a good initial default configuration and
> it won't take as much tweaking to improve the mail delivery performance,
> but that's just a personal opinion.
> 
>> I read in a 2004 (or earlier thread) where using MySQL db tables would
>> also
>> increase the speed.  I will also utilize this option.
> 
> I don't know of any way that MySQL would factor into this discussion.  Can
> you provide a reference?
> 
> --
> Brad Knowles <bradknowles at shub-internet.org>
> LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/lists%40nabble.com
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Increasing-the-Speed-of-Email-Delivery-tp26837149p26904964.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Dec 23 19:59:55 2009
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:59:55 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery
In-Reply-To: <26904964.post@talk.nabble.com>
References: <8e7982f70912171414q44d273d9hc903924591be5327@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091218003000.GE3079@amyl.org.uk>
	<4B2AD53B.2030309@tuunq.com> <26837773.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<877hsk6co5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<26839632.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<150AB728-118F-42C1-B9FE-23049632FF25@shub-internet.org>
	<26904964.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <649FE32C-B3F8-4BCC-A706-B100E891BFC2@shub-internet.org>

On Dec 23, 2009, at 11:24 AM, Derrick Wooden wrote:

> Brad, upon reading this thread again you are correct.  It was NOT implied
> that MySQL would speed up email delivery, but rather MySQL would be a better
> database solution.

As a database, yes -- MySQL is better at that job than using Python "pickles", which is what Mailman does today.  Unfortunately, there are no official interfaces between the current version of Mailman and MySQL.  There is the MySQL Member Adapter, but it's not officially supported (so far as I know), so the best you can get with the current version is to run a script which periodically extracts the information from MySQL and then puts that into Mailman, and vice-versa.

Mailman3 will have a much improved database interface that will include MySQL, but it's not here yet.

> Brad, I would be interested in contracting your services.  Please email me
> off the forum.  derrickwooden AT gmail

Unfortunately, I am not in a position to do this kind of consulting anymore.  I'll give advice for free, but that's the best I can do at the moment.

--
Brad Knowles <bradknowles at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


From derrickwooden at gmail.com  Wed Dec 23 20:12:41 2009
From: derrickwooden at gmail.com (Derrick Wooden)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:12:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery
In-Reply-To: <1261563657.3480.84.camel@gimli.petrovitsch.priv.at>
References: <8e7982f70912171414q44d273d9hc903924591be5327@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091218003000.GE3079@amyl.org.uk> <4B2AD53B.2030309@tuunq.com>
	<1261563657.3480.84.camel@gimli.petrovitsch.priv.at>
Message-ID: <26906066.post@talk.nabble.com>


I'm well aware that SMTP doesn't mean instant.

I'm just looking at a solution that can cut 1E6 emails being delivered in 12
hours down to say 4 hours.  With a fast server, correct MTA optimization and
proper Mailman setup could this be attainable?
  
The Barack Obama email campaign used Postfix for their MTA and PHP Mailer to
deliver their newsletters.  

I'm using a package install of Mailman along with Exim through cPanel.  I
now know that this setup is not optimal and needs lots of tweaking.  I'm
looking into VERP also based on helpful information in the FAQs.


Bernd Petrovitsch-2 wrote:
> 
> On Don, 2009-12-17 at 17:04 -0800, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
>> Lots of it depends on the MTA (general opinion is that postfix seems to
>> be 
>> the fastest), connectivity, and list settings (personalized email will
>> take 
> Do I take the flame bait?;-)
> 
> Whatever you understand in detail under a "fast MTA" (and even if it
> would be the case), it doesn't really matter IMHO because
> a) Email/SMTP never was anywhere near "realtime" (though many people
>    expect mails to be delivered in seconds),
> b) if your local Internet connection is too small, it doesn't help to
>    have the fastest MTA[0],
> c) the local MTA resolves various hostnames and that could be "slow" and
>    will involved timeouts (where every MTA out there just can wait)[0],
> d) if your hardware (RAM, disks) are too small or slow, the MTA really
>    can't do anything (and I expect all widespread MTAS to reasonably
>    minimize the I/O and memory anyways). That may be irrelevant on the
>    usual small mailserver with average nowadays hardware but if you have
>    e.g. a small ISP with >25K mailboxes and (on the average) 1E6 mails
>    per day ("after" using DNSBLs blocking lots of spam/viruses before
>    even sending "EHLO"), it
>    looks quite different,
> e) b) for the remote MTA - but you have absolutely no influence on the 
>    remote side[0],
> f) c) for the remote MTA - but you have absolutely no influence on the 
>    remote side[0],
> g) the remote MTA may do extensive spam/virus checking, grey-listing,
>    ... - taking time - causing "slow" mail delivery you have absolutely
>    no influence on the remote side[0].
> Of course the timeouts and waiting from above cost next to no
> resources/performance locally (so the MTA(s) usually deliver several
> emails in parallel without any problems as long as the box(es) do not
> trash) but it costs total time (which makes email delivery "slow").
> 
> So I don't think that saving 10% (or even 50%) local "speed" will make a
> significant difference (perhaps if you have a *really* large setup - but
> even then deploying one more box is cheaper than investing a day to
> improve the local performance. OK, saving a box is better for the world
> as such ....).
> 
> 	Bernd
> 
> [0]: And changing the local MTA won't solve that.
> -- 
> mobil: +43 664 4416156          http://bernd.petrovitsch.priv.at/
>     Linux Software Entwicklung, Beratung und Dienstleistungen
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/lists%40nabble.com
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Increasing-the-Speed-of-Email-Delivery-tp26837149p26906066.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Dec 23 20:50:18 2009
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:50:18 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery
In-Reply-To: <26906066.post@talk.nabble.com>
References: <8e7982f70912171414q44d273d9hc903924591be5327@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091218003000.GE3079@amyl.org.uk> <4B2AD53B.2030309@tuunq.com>
	<1261563657.3480.84.camel@gimli.petrovitsch.priv.at>
	<26906066.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <62BDC28D-F870-47E5-8F21-5B5249711BBD@shub-internet.org>

On Dec 23, 2009, at 1:12 PM, Derrick Wooden wrote:

> I'm well aware that SMTP doesn't mean instant.

Regretfully, you are the exception.  Most people don't seem to get this concept -- even people like my wife, and I've been trying to pound this one into her brain for ten years.

> I'm just looking at a solution that can cut 1E6 emails being delivered in 12
> hours down to say 4 hours.  With a fast server, correct MTA optimization and
> proper Mailman setup could this be attainable?

I believe so, yes.  However, optimization would have to be done at all levels, not just the MTA.

If you've got that many recipients, then you're probably seeing a lot of Python pickle contention during initial list delivery, and you'd want to break that down into a number of sub-lists.  If you have a million recipients, then a thousand sublists with a thousand subscribers each would probably be overkill, but a hundred sublists with ten thousand subscribers each probably would not be enough.

Using postfix, you can tune things for maximum parallelization, and eliminate things like unnecessary DNS queries and blacklist checks on outbound (because you've already done them on inbound, or it's an announce-only list and they don't need to be done at all).  You can also tune things so that any messages which don't get delivered right away can get pushed off onto another "slow delivery" server, thus keeping the primary server pumping as fast as possible.  For an announce-only list, you might also want to consider putting the primary mail queues on solid-state disk -- you shouldn't need a particularly large SSD for the primary server if the "slow delivery" server has sufficient storage.

Your primary bottlenecks are going to be disk latency and locking contention.  If you can eliminate or minimize those, everything else should flow as fast as your Internet connection allows.

> The Barack Obama email campaign used Postfix for their MTA and PHP Mailer to
> deliver their newsletters.  

How many people did they deliver to?  How many machines did they have doing delivery?  How often did they send out messages?  How large were those messages?  Did they do DKIM signing on each message?  There's lots of variables here that could affect their numbers relative to what you might be able to achieve.

> I'm using a package install of Mailman along with Exim through cPanel.  I
> now know that this setup is not optimal and needs lots of tweaking.  I'm
> looking into VERP also based on helpful information in the FAQs.

I've done the best I can to encode as much of my knowledge as possible into the FAQs.  Pretty much everything is there, or I point to references where the rest of the information can be found.  The key is knowing what you're looking for and when you've found it.

--
Brad Knowles <bradknowles at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net  Wed Dec 23 21:57:49 2009
From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:57:49 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] NNTP server for "local" newsgroups ?
In-Reply-To: <fr53j5les4iav49dlvcfifppo9mcfi8lv3@4ax.com>
References: <r350j515dfjm5d2913p57aib2b7g6or0i8@4ax.com>	<C3AD0FF0-27D4-42E1-9F29-D0B0B41FBA24@python.org>	<pbg2j5544kovidb4vj0k05pf4bj869qcuu@4ax.com>	<6C50D4FC-6287-4097-BE83-813C4E13EB13@python.org>	<95o2j556g0c9ok3m6hq6lp24bup8cb267k@4ax.com>	<D2CBEFB9-FFE2-4142-B43B-687136685F06@python.org>
	<fr53j5les4iav49dlvcfifppo9mcfi8lv3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <4B32844D.606@riverviewtech.net>

On 12/22/09 22:24, John Fitzsimons wrote:
> Okay, IF an NNTP setup were part of Mailman then that would IMO 
> encourage a huge number of hosters, that currently install Mailman, 
> to consider opening that port. Particularly as you could put in the 
> installation documents that the Mailman NNTP facility requires it.

I'm sure that hosts would consider running an NNTP server for a few 
moments before considering the ramifications (to Mailman) of not doing 
so before ultimately considering a different mailing list manager.

I think Mailman (as a mailing list manager) should remain separate from 
a NNTP daemon.  Having Mailman take advantage of an NNTP server that 
exists is wonderful.  Making the leap to requiring the use of a Mailman 
rolled NNTP server is (IMHO) extremely arrogant.  Offering an optional 
program that has been "tested to work with" (tm) is something completely 
different and acceptable.

Further, you have some sites that are running Mailman on a server that 
is already running a different NNTP server.  Are you going to tell these 
sites that they have to switch from their current NNTP server to the one 
that ships with Mailman?  What if they refuse to switch?  Does that mean 
that they have chosen to abandon Mailman and go with another product?

Requiring a Mailman included NNTP server is a *VERY* big and (IMHO) bad 
thing to do.

At most, I think there should be an optional component that is tested 
and supported.  Any thing beyond that should be what we currently have, 
best effort support to work with an alternative part NNTP server.

> You would be doing a gigantic service to newsgroup fans around the 
> world. I sure hope you can manage this venture.

Is adding multiple additional news servers (that only carry groups for 
the mailing lists hosted on the server) really such a good service?  Or 
would it be better to (do what we currently do) gateway from Mailman and 
an existing NNTP server.

> Well, if you pull this off, then IMO Mailman will blow competing 
> products out of the water. Both freeware and payware.   :-)

There are already packages that provide web form / mailing list / 
newsgroup / news server integration all in one.  Synchronet comes to mind.



Grant. . . .

From johnf at net2000.com.au  Wed Dec 23 23:10:28 2009
From: johnf at net2000.com.au (John Fitzsimons)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 09:10:28 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] NNTP server for "local" newsgroups ?
In-Reply-To: <4B32844D.606@riverviewtech.net>
References: <r350j515dfjm5d2913p57aib2b7g6or0i8@4ax.com>	<C3AD0FF0-27D4-42E1-9F29-D0B0B41FBA24@python.org>	<pbg2j5544kovidb4vj0k05pf4bj869qcuu@4ax.com>	<6C50D4FC-6287-4097-BE83-813C4E13EB13@python.org>	<95o2j556g0c9ok3m6hq6lp24bup8cb267k@4ax.com>	<D2CBEFB9-FFE2-4142-B43B-687136685F06@python.org>
	<fr53j5les4iav49dlvcfifppo9mcfi8lv3@4ax.com>
	<4B32844D.606@riverviewtech.net>
Message-ID: <u135j5tb3sd18ghieap93ibr07m0dm9fjj@4ax.com>

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:57:49 -0600, Grant Taylor wrote:
 
>On 12/22/09 22:24, John Fitzsimons wrote:

>> Okay, IF an NNTP setup were part of Mailman then that would IMO 
>> encourage a huge number of hosters, that currently install Mailman, 
>> to consider opening that port. Particularly as you could put in the 
>> installation documents that the Mailman NNTP facility requires it.

>I'm sure that hosts would consider running an NNTP server for a few 
>moments before considering the ramifications (to Mailman) of not doing 
>so before ultimately considering a different mailing list manager.

No idea why someone wanting a mailing list manager would NOT like to
have additional functionality. If it were an option.

I was, of course, assuming that during Mailman's installation a
question would be asked such as "Do you wish to enable an NNTP 
server for use with Mailman ? Y/N ?"

>I think Mailman (as a mailing list manager) should remain separate from 
>a NNTP daemon. 

If people had an option during installation then they could decide
that question for themselves.

>Having Mailman take advantage of an NNTP server that 
>exists is wonderful.  Making the leap to requiring the use of a Mailman 
>rolled NNTP server is (IMHO) extremely arrogant.  

I wasn't recommending that. I was suggesting that if people chose,
during installation, to add an NNTP capability then they would be
reminded that they need to open the relevant port to get everything
working properly.

>Offering an optional 
>program that has been "tested to work with" (tm) is something completely 
>different and acceptable.

>Further, you have some sites that are running Mailman on a server that 
>is already running a different NNTP server.  Are you going to tell these 
>sites that they have to switch from their current NNTP server to the one 
>that ships with Mailman?  What if they refuse to switch?  Does that mean 
>that they have chosen to abandon Mailman and go with another product?

No, as these people wouldn't choose the added NNTP functionality while
installing Mailman.

>Requiring a Mailman included NNTP server is a *VERY* big and (IMHO) bad 
>thing to do.

I wasn't suggesting that. The NNTP part would be optional.

>At most, I think there should be an optional component that is tested 
>and supported.  Any thing beyond that should be what we currently have, 
>best effort support to work with an alternative part NNTP server.

>> You would be doing a gigantic service to newsgroup fans around the 
>> world. I sure hope you can manage this venture.

>Is adding multiple additional news servers (that only carry groups for 
>the mailing lists hosted on the server) really such a good service?  

Well, as Gmane has 11,972 mailing list ported to NNTP I guess quite a
lot of people would say "yes". IMO the only reason more people don't
use Gmane is because they haven't heard of it and/or don't understand
how it works.

That certainly applies to me. Had I known about Gmane, and how it
works, in 2002 then I would have considered using their service then.
IF Mailman had a similar thing as an "option" then IMO many would jump
at the opportunity to have this added functionality.

>Or 
>would it be better to (do what we currently do) gateway from Mailman and 
>an existing NNTP server.

No it wouldn't. A very high percentage of "hosted" sites install
Mailman. IF an NNTP "optional" component existed then more sites would
offer their clients that option. 

At the moment the number of "hosted" sites that offer an NNTP option
is pretty close to 0%. Almost all the very very few sites that offer
NNTP do so as a newsgroup provider only. It isn't part of the "hosting
package" that many companies offer. 

>> Well, if you pull this off, then IMO Mailman will blow competing 
>> products out of the water. Both freeware and payware.   :-)

>There are already packages that provide web form / mailing list / 
>newsgroup / news server integration all in one.  Synchronet comes to mind.

Almost all of which need root access and/or Linux skills. Not much use
to people who don't have root access, or Linux skills.

With Synchronet for example ..

"Step-by-step Instructions
=========================

Note: These instructions assume you are already logged in as 'root'.

Q. Where do I get Synchronet for Unix?

A. There are no binary distributions at this time, so you must get the
source code from...."


Not everyone is a "Unix geek". Some of us simply want to be able to
send/receive email and newsgroup posts. Preferably as a synchronised
setup.

This sort of thing is absurdly simple in windows. It is amazingly
difficult in Linux.


Regards, John.
 

From barry at python.org  Wed Dec 23 23:13:35 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 17:13:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] NNTP server for "local" newsgroups ?
In-Reply-To: <4B32844D.606@riverviewtech.net>
References: <r350j515dfjm5d2913p57aib2b7g6or0i8@4ax.com>
	<C3AD0FF0-27D4-42E1-9F29-D0B0B41FBA24@python.org>
	<pbg2j5544kovidb4vj0k05pf4bj869qcuu@4ax.com>
	<6C50D4FC-6287-4097-BE83-813C4E13EB13@python.org>
	<95o2j556g0c9ok3m6hq6lp24bup8cb267k@4ax.com>
	<D2CBEFB9-FFE2-4142-B43B-687136685F06@python.org>
	<fr53j5les4iav49dlvcfifppo9mcfi8lv3@4ax.com>
	<4B32844D.606@riverviewtech.net>
Message-ID: <20091223171335.74dd256f@freewill>

On Dec 23, 2009, at 02:57 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:

>Making the leap to requiring the use of a Mailman 
>rolled NNTP server is (IMHO) extremely arrogant.  Offering an optional 
>program that has been "tested to work with" (tm) is something completely 
>different and acceptable.

No, Mailman will not /require/ the use of its NNTP server, just like today it
does not require the use of Pipermail.  It'll be available for anybody who
wants an easy, turnkey solution, which actually is probably the majority of
users.  But if you don't want it, or want to roll you're own, you will of
course be welcome to.

-Barry
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From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Wed Dec 23 23:19:27 2009
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 22:19:27 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] NNTP server for "local" newsgroups ?
In-Reply-To: <u135j5tb3sd18ghieap93ibr07m0dm9fjj@4ax.com>
References: <r350j515dfjm5d2913p57aib2b7g6or0i8@4ax.com>
	<C3AD0FF0-27D4-42E1-9F29-D0B0B41FBA24@python.org>
	<pbg2j5544kovidb4vj0k05pf4bj869qcuu@4ax.com>
	<6C50D4FC-6287-4097-BE83-813C4E13EB13@python.org>
	<95o2j556g0c9ok3m6hq6lp24bup8cb267k@4ax.com>
	<D2CBEFB9-FFE2-4142-B43B-687136685F06@python.org>
	<fr53j5les4iav49dlvcfifppo9mcfi8lv3@4ax.com>
	<4B32844D.606@riverviewtech.net>
	<u135j5tb3sd18ghieap93ibr07m0dm9fjj@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20091223221927.GE3079@amyl.org.uk>

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 09:10:28AM +1100, John Fitzsimons wrote:
> No idea why someone wanting a mailing list manager would NOT like to
> have additional functionality. If it were an option.

Function-creep/bloatware, things getting too big for their own boots?

I like small things. If I want extra packages/software, I install
them. I don't want them to be bundled in. Especially not
automatically.

-- 
``I believe I am the only living man to deliberately
  place his hands in the mouth of an attacking cougar.'' (Clarence Hall)

From luca at improntedigitali.it  Wed Dec 23 18:15:59 2009
From: luca at improntedigitali.it (Lucafr)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:15:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman moderation
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912230630000031ab41c05f@msapiro>
References: <26897645.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<PC195200912230630000031ab41c05f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <26904869.post@talk.nabble.com>




Mark Sapiro-3 wrote:
> 
> Lucafr wrote:
> 
>>I have a mailing list with mailman 2.1.5: the list is moderate and I would
>>like that the alert sent by mailman were not every day but in real time (I
>>would like the admin will receive the alert everytime somebody send a
>>message to the list).
> 
> 
> Go to the web admin interface General Options page and set
> 
> Should the list moderators get immediate notice of new requests, as
> well as daily notices about collected ones?
> (Details for admin_immed_notify)
> 
> to Yes.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> 
> nsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/lists%40nabble.com
> 
> 


that's ok, it works thank you very much!
just another question: this option dont work with emergency moderation
status, it works only if some or all members are setted as moderated, isn
it?
-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/mailman-moderation-tp26897645p26904869.html
Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 24 15:39:57 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 06:39:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman moderation
In-Reply-To: <26904869.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912240639570031134a71d8@msapiro>

Lucafr wrote:

>just another question: this option dont work with emergency moderation
>status, it works only if some or all members are setted as moderated, isnit?


That is correct. Emergency moderation is intended to be used for
emergencies - e.g. to stop a flame war that has gotten out of hand -
not routinely. Thus, it is felt that immediate notification of posts
held for emergency moderation would be unnecessary and intrusive.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From info at certuspersonality.com  Thu Dec 24 11:03:15 2009
From: info at certuspersonality.com (certuspersonality)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:03:15 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mass Removal of Subscribers from Mailing List
Message-ID: <20091224100347.NKZW24930.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@herward-i79lit1.certuspersonality.com>

This is a new attempt to receive a meaningful reply to above subject.

I am not able to use Mailman commands on my server, as Mailman is 
integrated in cpanel of the hosting server I am subscribed to.
I need to remove all subscriber email addresses in a given mailing 
list to then mass-subscribe a number of new email addresses.
As the existing list is long and I do not have a backup of it on my 
computer, I cannot copy them into the field displayed for mass removal.
It is possible to mark all given entries in the 'unsub' column 
individually but that takes ages to do.
Is there a way of marking them in one go?

Herward 


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 24 21:35:17 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:35:17 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mass Removal of Subscribers from Mailing List
In-Reply-To: <20091224100347.NKZW24930.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@herward-i79lit1.certuspersonality.com>
Message-ID: <PC19520091224123517045378fd97d6@msapiro>

certuspersonality wrote:

>This is a new attempt to receive a meaningful reply to above subject.
>
>I am not able to use Mailman commands on my server, as Mailman is 
>integrated in cpanel of the hosting server I am subscribed to.
>I need to remove all subscriber email addresses in a given mailing 
>list to then mass-subscribe a number of new email addresses.
>As the existing list is long and I do not have a backup of it on my 
>computer, I cannot copy them into the field displayed for mass removal.
>It is possible to mark all given entries in the 'unsub' column 
>individually but that takes ages to do.
>Is there a way of marking them in one go?


I grant that my reply to your original post was not helpful because I
misunderstood your question. However, I thought Terri's reply at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2009-December/068015.html>
was relevant and informative. Perhaps if you can address that
particular reply, specifically what about it you didn't understand or
isn't applicable in your situation, we can provide more information.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From scott at 916networks.com  Thu Dec 24 21:28:45 2009
From: scott at 916networks.com (Scott Race)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:28:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mass Removal of Subscribers from Mailing List
In-Reply-To: <20091224100347.NKZW24930.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@herward-i79lit1.certuspersonality.com>
References: <20091224100347.NKZW24930.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@herward-i79lit1.certuspersonality.com>
Message-ID: <B7767460-34BF-473B-8D26-B697159D8360@916networks.com>

Have you actually talked to your hosting company?  One client I worked  
with had cpanlr hosting, and we were able to get the hosting company  
to run commands for us, they dropped the .csv files into our hosting  
directory.

Scott

On Dec 24, 2009, at 12:21 PM, "certuspersonality" <info at certuspersonality.com 
 > wrote:

> This is a new attempt to receive a meaningful reply to above subject.
>
> I am not able to use Mailman commands on my server, as Mailman is
> integrated in cpanel of the hosting server I am subscribed to.
> I need to remove all subscriber email addresses in a given mailing
> list to then mass-subscribe a number of new email addresses.
> As the existing list is long and I do not have a backup of it on my
> computer, I cannot copy them into the field displayed for mass  
> removal.
> It is possible to mark all given entries in the 'unsub' column
> individually but that takes ages to do.
> Is there a way of marking them in one go?
>
> Herward
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/scott%40916networks.com

From johnf at net2000.com.au  Fri Dec 25 01:43:29 2009
From: johnf at net2000.com.au (John Fitzsimons)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:43:29 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <3E871552-E8F7-4161-85B7-2E3536045C6F@shub-internet.org>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
	<3E871552-E8F7-4161-85B7-2E3536045C6F@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <5e28j5hp6h2cddkveo37sps4ppfgus9i0c@4ax.com>

On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:56:19 -0600, Brad Knowles wrote:
 
>On Dec 21, 2009, at 1:49 AM, John Fitzsimons wrote:

>> Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman
>> mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and
>> vica versa ?

>Search the FAQ wizard for "web forum".  You should find a link to an article that talks about Joomla.  

< snip >

Okay, thanks. It appears that Joomla, and PHPBB, both need a database
eg. MySQL. I don't suppose you know whether they could both reference
the same database when setting things up for the above outcome ?

Thank you for your help.

Regards, John.

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Fri Dec 25 02:19:27 2009
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 01:19:27 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <5e28j5hp6h2cddkveo37sps4ppfgus9i0c@4ax.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
	<3E871552-E8F7-4161-85B7-2E3536045C6F@shub-internet.org>
	<5e28j5hp6h2cddkveo37sps4ppfgus9i0c@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20091225011927.GG3079@amyl.org.uk>

On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 11:43:29AM +1100, John Fitzsimons wrote:
> Okay, thanks. It appears that Joomla, and PHPBB, both need a database
> eg. MySQL. I don't suppose you know whether they could both reference
> the same database when setting things up for the above outcome ?

Joomla doesn't have native forums, from last time I looked. Joomla is
'just' a CMS.

http://www.kunena.com/ is apparently "Next Generation Native Joomla
Forum"; it's that wh(at|ich) is installed on a box I sysadmin for, but
didn't set-up.

I've got a vague knowledge of phpBB2, but I've not kept upto date.

However, with those caveats, one should be able to use the same
*database*, and Joomla/Kunena/Drupal/phpBB2 could all co-exist, in the
same database, just using different database table prefixes, e.g.,

resulting in something like
    db_foo.joomla_blah
    db_foo.joomla_users
    db_foo.kunena_forum
    db_foo.kunena_users
    db_foo.drupal_nodes
    db_foo.drupal_users
    db_foo.phpbb_users
    db_foo.phpbb_topics

There's an option to specify prefixes at install/configuration time.

I'd not advise having that sort of structure, it's just going to get
messy/putting all of one's eggs in the same basket, but it could be
considered an option.

-- 
``The government wants to bring an end to so-called vertical drinking.''
  (from the BBC's `Today in Parliament')

From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Dec 25 03:26:01 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:26:01 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <20091225011927.GG3079@amyl.org.uk>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
	<3E871552-E8F7-4161-85B7-2E3536045C6F@shub-internet.org>
	<5e28j5hp6h2cddkveo37sps4ppfgus9i0c@4ax.com>
	<20091225011927.GG3079@amyl.org.uk>
Message-ID: <87skazpz5y.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Adam McGreggor writes:

 > However, with those caveats, one should be able to use the same
 > *database*, and Joomla/Kunena/Drupal/phpBB2 could all co-exist, in the
 > same database, just using different database table prefixes, e.g.,

I rather doubt that's what John wants.  I am guessing he wants *one*
user database, *one* message database/archive, etc, etc, which
presents various different faces to users depending one whether they
access via mail, news, or forum.

That's why Barry is focusing on various kind of adaptors, so that
different functions can share certain databases.

From matiassurdi at gmail.com  Mon Dec 28 10:22:46 2009
From: matiassurdi at gmail.com (Matias Surdi)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 10:22:46 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hiding list address
Message-ID: <720ff42b0912280122l31dc2c03nf819108deb7ae937@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I've been asked to setup a couple mailing lists we have at work so
that, when somebody sends a mail to mylist at example.com and one of the
members of the list click on "Reply all" the reply doesn't get into
the list again.

Is there any way to hide the list email address (the To: header) so
that mail clients doesn't see it?


Thanks a lot for your help.


-- 
Matias Emanuel Surdi.

From david at vizion2000.net  Mon Dec 28 11:33:32 2009
From: david at vizion2000.net (David Southwell)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 10:33:32 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Group mismatch error..on Freebsd 7.2 p3 amd64
Message-ID: <200912281033.32511.david@vizion2000.net>

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Despite scouring the web and trying the many different solutions that seem to 
be offered to this problem I have be unable to fix it. Is there a way of 
tracing the cause in my particular instance?

The entry in maillog does not say how to tweak postfix!

Freebsd 7.2 p3 amd64 on Intel quad core

I have run 
/usr/local/mailman
dns1# ./bin/check_perms
No problems found
dns1# ./bin/genaliases
dns1# ls -l /etc |grep aliases
-rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel      5916 Dec 27 18:14 aliases
-rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel     16384 Dec 27 18:48 aliases.db
-rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel      2726 Dec 27 17:52 aliases~
dns1# ls -l ./data
total 58
-rw-r-----  1 mailman  mailman     41 Dec 19 17:46 adm.pw
-rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman   3760 Dec 28 09:40 aliases
-rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  16384 Dec 28 09:40 aliases.db
-rw-r--r--  1 root     mailman     10 Dec 28 09:23 last_mailman_version
-rw-r--r--  1 root     mailman  14100 Dec 28 09:23 sitelist.cfg
-rw-rw----  1 root     mailman   3284 Dec 28 09:40 virtual-mailman
-rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  16384 Dec 28 09:40 virtual-mailman.db


I tried to get the mail script changed to run --with-mail-gid=nobody but 
either I did not issue the command correctly or if I did it made no 
difference.! If someone could post the comand line that works on a freebsd 7.2 
system which they know to be correct I will try that again.


Extract from maillog:
TEST_15
Dec 28 09:25:41 dns1 postfix/pickup[33009]: 1278934D451: uid=1001 
from=<david at vizion2000.net>
Dec 28 09:25:41 dns1 postfix/cleanup[44509]: 1278934D451: message-
id=<200912280925.41000.david at vizion2000.net>
Dec 28 09:25:41 dns1 postfix/qmgr[23289]: 1278934D451: 
from=<david at vizion2000.net>, size=3166, nrcpt=2 (queue active)
Dec 28 09:25:41 dns1 Mailman mail-wrapper: Group mismatch error.  Mailman 
expected the mail wrapper script to be executed as group "mailman", but the 
system's mail server executed the mail script as group "nobody".  Try tweaking 
the mail server to run the script as group "mailman", or re-run configure,  
providing the command line option `--with-mail-gid=nobody'.
Dec 28 09:25:41 dns1 postfix/local[44512]: 1278934D451: 
to=<david at vizion2000.net>, relay=local, delay=0.07, delays=0.06/0.01/0/0, 
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to mailbox)
Dec 28 09:25:41 dns1 postfix/local[44511]: 1278934D451: 
to=<bps_comps_print_announce at vizion2000.net>, relay=local, delay=0.08, 
delays=0.06/0.01/0/0.01, dsn=5.3.0, status=bounced (Command died with status 
2: "/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post bps_comps_print_announce". Command 
output: Group mismatch error.  Mailman expected the mail wrapper script to be 
executed as group "mailman", but the system's mail server executed the mail 
script as group "nobody".  Try tweaking the mail server to run the script as 
group "mailman", or re-run configure,  providing the command line option `--
with-mail-gid=nobody'. )
Dec 28 09:25:41 dns1 postfix/cleanup[44509]: 18F7434D456: message-
id=<20091228092541.18F7434D456 at dns1.vizion2000.net>
Dec 28 09:25:41 dns1 postfix/bounce[44514]: 1278934D451: sender non-delivery 
notification: 18F7434D456
Dec 28 09:25:41 dns1 postfix/qmgr[23289]: 18F7434D456: from=<>, size=5719, 
nrcpt=1 (queue active)
Dec 28 09:25:41 dns1 postfix/qmgr[23289]: 1278934D451: removed
Dec 28 09:25:41 dns1 postfix/local[44512]: 18F7434D456: 
to=<david at vizion2000.net>, relay=local, delay=0, delays=0/0/0/0, dsn=2.0.0, 
status=sent (delivered to mailbox)
Dec 28 09:25:41 dns1 postfix/qmgr[23289]: 18F7434D456: removed

Thanks 

David

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec 28 15:08:54 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 06:08:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hiding list address
In-Reply-To: <720ff42b0912280122l31dc2c03nf819108deb7ae937@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912280608540687c96e0aa5@msapiro>

Matias Surdi wrote:
>
>I've been asked to setup a couple mailing lists we have at work so
>that, when somebody sends a mail to mylist at example.com and one of the
>members of the list click on "Reply all" the reply doesn't get into
>the list again.
>
>Is there any way to hide the list email address (the To: header) so
>that mail clients doesn't see it?


Not really. You can fully personalize the list and messages will then
be To: the recipient, but this will force the list address into a Cc:
header so 'reply all' will still include the list. If what you want is
for the list members to be unable to post to the list, see the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/3YA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec 28 15:35:24 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 06:35:24 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Group mismatch error..on Freebsd 7.2 p3 amd64
In-Reply-To: <200912281033.32511.david@vizion2000.net>
Message-ID: <PC195200912280635240015806ffca7@msapiro>

David Southwell wrote:
>
>Despite scouring the web and trying the many different solutions that seem to 
>be offered to this problem I have be unable to fix it. Is there a way of 
>tracing the cause in my particular instance?


Yes.


>The entry in maillog does not say how to tweak postfix!


No, but Postfix's 'man 8 local' manpage does in the 'DELIVERY RIGHTS'
paragraph.


[...]
>dns1# ls -l ./data
>total 58
>-rw-r-----  1 mailman  mailman     41 Dec 19 17:46 adm.pw
>-rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman   3760 Dec 28 09:40 aliases
>-rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  16384 Dec 28 09:40 aliases.db


The ownership of the above aliases.db file is what controls the group
with which Postfix invokes the mail wrapper. Postfix runs the wrapper
with user:group of the owner of that file. I.e. group 'mailman', but
not because the file is group 'mailman'; rather because the owner of
the file is 'mailman' and 'mailman's primary group is 'mailman'.


[...]
>I tried to get the mail script changed to run --with-mail-gid=nobody but 
>either I did not issue the command correctly or if I did it made no 
>difference.! If someone could post the comand line that works on a freebsd 7.2 
>system which they know to be correct I will try that again.


--with-mail-gid=nobody is wrong in the first place. it would be
--with-mail-gid=mailman in your case, but this is not an option to the
mail wrapper. It is an option to configure in the configure/make/make
install process to build and install Mailman.

If you are running a FreeBSD package, you aren't doing this process, so
--with-mail-gid=mailman is not applicable in your case. The FreeBSD
package probably has a way to set this, but how is a FreeBSD package
question that I can't answer. However, from the below, it appears that
the wrapper already expects group 'mailman' which should be correct.


>Extract from maillog:
[...]
>Dec 28 09:25:41 dns1 postfix/local[44511]: 1278934D451: 
>to=<bps_comps_print_announce at vizion2000.net>, relay=local, delay=0.08, 
>delays=0.06/0.01/0/0.01, dsn=5.3.0, status=bounced (Command died with status 
>2: "/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post bps_comps_print_announce". Command 
>output: Group mismatch error.  Mailman expected the mail wrapper script to be 
>executed as group "mailman", but the system's mail server executed the mail 
>script as group "nobody".  Try tweaking the mail server to run the script as 
>group "mailman", or re-run configure,  providing the command line option `--
>with-mail-gid=nobody'. )


This indicates that the wrapper is expecting group 'mailman' which is
correct, but either 'mailman's primary group is 'nobody' which is both
wrong and unlikely, or Postfix found the alias for
bps_comps_print_announce in /etc/aliases.db which is owned by root so
it fell back to 'default_privs'.

I suspect the latter is the explanation. There should be no Mailman
aliases in /etc/aliases. Mailman will maintain them automatically in
data/aliases which should be referenced in Postfix' alias_maps.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From david at vizion2000.net  Mon Dec 28 16:28:57 2009
From: david at vizion2000.net (David Southwell)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 15:28:57 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Group mismatch error..on Freebsd 7.2 p3 amd64
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912280635240015806ffca7@msapiro>
References: <PC195200912280635240015806ffca7@msapiro>
Message-ID: <200912281528.57685.david@vizion2000.net>

> David Southwell wrote:
> >Despite scouring the web and trying the many different solutions that seem
> > to be offered to this problem I have be unable to fix it. Is there a way
> > of tracing the cause in my particular instance?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> >The entry in maillog does not say how to tweak postfix!
> 
> No, but Postfix's 'man 8 local' manpage does in the 'DELIVERY RIGHTS'
> paragraph.
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> >dns1# ls -l ./data
> >total 58
> >-rw-r-----  1 mailman  mailman     41 Dec 19 17:46 adm.pw
> >-rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman   3760 Dec 28 09:40 aliases
> >-rw-rw----  1 mailman  mailman  16384 Dec 28 09:40 aliases.db
> 
> The ownership of the above aliases.db file is what controls the group
> with which Postfix invokes the mail wrapper. Postfix runs the wrapper
> with user:group of the owner of that file. I.e. group 'mailman', but
> not because the file is group 'mailman'; rather because the owner of
> the file is 'mailman' and 'mailman's primary group is 'mailman'.
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> >I tried to get the mail script changed to run --with-mail-gid=nobody but
> >either I did not issue the command correctly or if I did it made no
> >difference.! If someone could post the comand line that works on a freebsd
> > 7.2 system which they know to be correct I will try that again.
> 
> --with-mail-gid=nobody is wrong in the first place. it would be
> --with-mail-gid=mailman in your case, but this is not an option to the
> mail wrapper. It is an option to configure in the configure/make/make
> install process to build and install Mailman.
> 
> If you are running a FreeBSD package, you aren't doing this process, so
> --with-mail-gid=mailman is not applicable in your case. The FreeBSD
> package probably has a way to set this, but how is a FreeBSD package
> question that I can't answer. However, from the below, it appears that
> the wrapper already expects group 'mailman' which should be correct.
> 
> >Extract from maillog:
> 
> [...]
> 
> >Dec 28 09:25:41 dns1 postfix/local[44511]: 1278934D451:
> >to=<bps_comps_print_announce at vizion2000.net>, relay=local, delay=0.08,
> >delays=0.06/0.01/0/0.01, dsn=5.3.0, status=bounced (Command died with
> > status 2: "/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post
> > bps_comps_print_announce". Command output: Group mismatch error.  Mailman
> > expected the mail wrapper script to be executed as group "mailman", but
> > the system's mail server executed the mail script as group "nobody".  Try
> > tweaking the mail server to run the script as group "mailman", or re-run
> > configure,  providing the command line option `-- with-mail-gid=nobody'.
> > )
> 
> This indicates that the wrapper is expecting group 'mailman' which is
> correct, but either 'mailman's primary group is 'nobody' which is both
> wrong and unlikely, or Postfix found the alias for
> bps_comps_print_announce in /etc/aliases.db which is owned by root so
> it fell back to 'default_privs'.
> 
> I suspect the latter is the explanation. There should be no Mailman
> aliases in /etc/aliases. Mailman will maintain them automatically in
> data/aliases which should be referenced in Postfix' alias_maps.
> 

OK

You were right on the ball!! I removed mailman aliases which were indeed in 
/etc/aliases and the problem went away..

Well done
Thanks

David




From david at vizion2000.net  Mon Dec 28 19:45:34 2009
From: david at vizion2000.net (David Southwell)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:45:34 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Group mismatch _SOLVED BUT one config more error
	---?-(
Message-ID: <200912281845.34206.david@vizion2000.net>

Thanks in advance for any responses.

Mark really helped me out by solving the Group mismatch problem. I seem to 
have one difficulty left. Mail addressed to the list is now reaching mailman 
and being placed in the archive. However it is not being distributed to list 
members.

Here is an extract from mailman/logs/error:

Dec 28 15:54:28 2009 (60604) SHUNTING: 
1261678284.135128+abc9a7be89381d91e5224fab04702f5dbaef2285
Dec 28 15:54:28 2009 (60604) Uncaught runner exception: 'list' object has no 
attribute 'find'
Dec 28 15:54:28 2009 (60604) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 120, in _oneloop
    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 191, in _onefile
    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/OutgoingRunner.py", line 74, in 
_dispose
    self._func(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py", line 159, in 
process
    deliveryfunc(mlist, msg, msgdata, envsender, refused, conn)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py", line 345, in 
verpdeliver
    bulkdeliver(mlist, msgcopy, msgdata, envsender, failures, conn)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py", line 375, in 
bulkdeliver
    refused = conn.sendmail(envsender, recips, msgtext, mailopts)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py", line 69, in 
sendmail
    self.__connect()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py", line 64, in 
__connect
    self.__conn.connect(mm_cfg.SMTPHOST, mm_cfg.SMTPPORT)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.6/smtplib.py", line 286, in connect
    if not port and (host.find(':') == host.rfind(':')):
AttributeError: 'list' object has no attribute 'find'

mm_cfg.py has the following lines:

from Defaults import *

##################################################
# Put YOUR site-specific settings below this line.
add_virtualhost ( 'vizion2000.net' )

POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['vizion2000.net', 'atf4.com']



MTA = 'Postfix'
SMTPHOST = [ 'dns1.vizion2000.net']

David

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec 28 20:19:22 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:19:22 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Group mismatch _SOLVED BUT one config more
	error ---?-(
In-Reply-To: <200912281845.34206.david@vizion2000.net>
Message-ID: <PC195200912281119220531380c90a9@msapiro>

David Southwell wrote:
>
>Here is an extract from mailman/logs/error:
>
>Dec 28 15:54:28 2009 (60604) SHUNTING: 
>1261678284.135128+abc9a7be89381d91e5224fab04702f5dbaef2285
>Dec 28 15:54:28 2009 (60604) Uncaught runner exception: 'list' object has no 
>attribute 'find'
[...]
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py", line 64, in 
>__connect
>    self.__conn.connect(mm_cfg.SMTPHOST, mm_cfg.SMTPPORT)
>  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.6/smtplib.py", line 286, in connect
>    if not port and (host.find(':') == host.rfind(':')):
>AttributeError: 'list' object has no attribute 'find'
>
>mm_cfg.py has the following lines:
>
>from Defaults import *
>
>##################################################
># Put YOUR site-specific settings below this line.
>add_virtualhost ( 'vizion2000.net' )
>
>POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['vizion2000.net', 'atf4.com']
>
>
>
>MTA = 'Postfix'
>SMTPHOST = [ 'dns1.vizion2000.net']


SMTPHOST is not a list. It is a string. I.e. if you realy want to
specify a host other than the default 'localhost', you need

SMTPHOST = 'dns1.vizion2000.net'

but the default which would be Postfix on the Mailman machine is
normally correct.

After you correct that, you can run Mailman's bin/unshunt do process
the shunted messages, or if you don't want to send them, you can just
remove them from qfiles/shunt/

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec 28 20:38:15 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:38:15 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Group mismatch _SOLVED BUT one config more
	error ---?-(
In-Reply-To: <200912281845.34206.david@vizion2000.net>
Message-ID: <PC195200912281138150015a610781e@msapiro>

David Southwell wrote:
>add_virtualhost ( 'vizion2000.net' )


BTW, it wasn't part of your question, but the above is wrong.
add_virtualhost takes two arguments, the web host and the email host.
If you give it only one argument, that is the web host, and the email
host is formed by removing the string up to the first '.' from the web
host. This is so that common cases like

add_virtualhost('www.example.com', 'example.com')

can be shortened to

add_virtualhost('www.example.com')

but what you have above is equivalent to

add_virtualhost ( 'vizion2000.net', 'net')

which is not what you want.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From clare at catspaw.plus.com  Mon Dec 28 17:55:11 2009
From: clare at catspaw.plus.com (Clare Redstone)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 16:55:11 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to digests
Message-ID: <014e01ca87de$85916bf0$90b443d0$@plus.com>

Hello,

 

I'm in the process of setting up Mailman for a discussion group of about 100
members. From past experience, I know some people will prefer to have digest
but they'll also probably just hit the "reply" button without editing the
subject or deleting anything automatically included. I think this will mean
their replies will contain the entire digest: difficult to work out which
message they're replying to and using archive space on the server.

 

1.       How do I stop this happening?

 

At the moment, the only thing I can think of is to filter out messages
containing "digest" in the subject line and hold those for moderation.

 

2.       Can I also filter messages with "digest" in the body? I can't see
where to do this in the administrative interface.

 

3.       When I'm reviewing a message held for moderation, can I edit it to
remove unwanted bits of the digest? I need to do this without altering the
sender's details so members know the message is from them and not from me?
When I click on the message in the moderation queue, I can see a message
excerpt but can't see how to edit it.

 

4.       If messages have got through with lots of unwanted text, is it
possible for me to edit them in the archive? Otherwise my archive may be
unnecessarily large and I can't afford endless server space.

 

Thanks for your help.

Clare


From david at vizion2000.net  Tue Dec 29 16:03:46 2009
From: david at vizion2000.net (David Southwell)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 15:03:46 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive access Forbidden
Message-ID: <200912291503.46908.david@vizion2000.net>

Thank you in advance for replies. The list is now working fine however access 
to the archive is blocked
:
From:
http://www.vizion2000.net/mailman/listinfo/bps_comps_print_announce

On line:
To see collection of prior postings to the list, visit the
clicking link for>   bps_comps_print_announce Archives

goes to:
http://www.vizion2000.net/pipermail/bps_comps_print_announce/

with result:
Forbidden
You don't have permission to access/pipermail/bps_comps_print_announce/ on 
this server

Attempt to view archives from Topic Section of the mailing list administration 
page using link for> Go to list archives
also fails

Extract from httpd-error.log
[Tue Dec 29 12:50:12 2009] [error] [client 62.49.197.51] attempt to invoke 
directory as script: /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/
[Tue Dec 29 12:50:47 2009] [error] [client 62.49.197.51] Symbolic link not 
allowed or link target not accessible: 
/usr/local/mailman/archives/public/bps_comps_print_announce, referer: 
http://www.vizion2000.net/mailman/listinfo/bps_comps_print_announce

Extract from httpd.conf
ScriptAlias /mailman      "/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin"
<Directory "/usr/local/mailman">
        Options FollowSymLinks ExecCGI
        AllowOverride None
        Order allow,deny
        Allow from all
     </Directory>
ScriptAlias /pipermail "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public"
<Directory "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public">
 Options FollowSymLinks ExecCGI
       AllowOverride None
       Order allow,deny
          Allow from all
Options Indexes MultiViews
  AddDefaultCharset Off
    </Directory>

dns1# pwd                         
/usr/local/mailman                
dns1# ls -l                       
total 36                          
drwxrwsr-x  11 mailman  mailman  2048 Dec 29 09:03 Mailman
drwxrwsr-x   4 www      www       512 Dec 28 13:07 archives
drwxrwsr-x   2 root     mailman  1024 Dec 28 13:07 bin     
drwxrwsr-x   2 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 cgi-bin 
drwxrwsr-x   2 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 cron
drwxrwsr-x   2 mailman  mailman   512 Dec 28 15:54 data
drwxrwsr-x   2 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 icons
drwxrwsr-x   6 mailman  mailman   512 Dec 28 15:45 lists
drwxrwsr-x   2 root     mailman   512 Dec 29 14:00 locks
drwxrwsr-x   2 mailman  mailman   512 Dec 29 09:04 logs
drwxrwsr-x   2 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 mail
drwxrwsr-x  37 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 messages
drwxrwsr-x   5 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 pythonlib
drwxrwsr-x  11 mailman  mailman   512 Dec 28 15:54 qfiles
drwxrwsr-x   2 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 scripts
drwxrwsr-x   2 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 spam
drwxrwsr-x  38 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 templates
drwxrwsr-x   4 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 tests
dns1# cd archives
dns1# ls -l
total 4
drwxrws---  10 www  www  512 Dec 28 15:45 private
drwxrwsr-x   2 www  www  512 Dec 28 15:46 public
dns1# cd private
dns1# ls -l
total 16
drwxrwsr-x  2 www  www  512 Dec 19 17:58 bps_comp_print_chat
drwxrwsr-x  2 www  www  512 Dec 19 17:58 bps_comp_print_chat.mbox
drwxrwsr-x  2 www  www  512 Dec 19 17:57 bps_comp_print_reminders
drwxrwsr-x  2 www  www  512 Dec 19 17:57 bps_comp_print_reminders.mbox
drwxrwsr-x  4 www  www  512 Dec 29 03:27 bps_comps_print_announce
drwxrwsr-x  2 www  www  512 Dec 28 15:54 bps_comps_print_announce.mbox
drwxrwsr-x  2 www  www  512 Dec 28 15:45 mailman
drwxrwsr-x  2 www  www  512 Dec 28 15:45 mailman.mbox
dns1# cd ../public
dns1# ls -l
total 0
lrwxr-xr-x  1 www  www  55 Dec 19 17:58 bps_comp_print_chat -> 
/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/bps_comp_print_chat
lrwxr-xr-x  1 www  www  60 Dec 19 17:57 bps_comp_print_reminders -> 
/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/bps_comp_print_reminders
lrwxr-xr-x  1 www  www  60 Dec 19 17:56 bps_comps_print_announce -> 
/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/bps_comps_print_announce
dns1# cd /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/bps_comps_print_announce
dns1# ls -l
total 14
drwxrwsr-x  2 www  www   512 Dec 28 15:54 2009-December
-rw-rw-r--  1 www  www  2870 Dec 28 15:54 2009-December.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 www  www  1356 Dec 29 03:27 2009-December.txt.gz
drwxrws---  2 www  www   512 Dec 28 15:54 database
-rw-rw-r--  1 www  www  1110 Dec 28 15:54 index.html
-rw-rw----  1 www  www   870 Dec 28 15:54 pipermail.pck
dns1#

Thanks in advance
_______________________________________________

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 29 16:05:40 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 07:05:40 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to digests
In-Reply-To: <014e01ca87de$85916bf0$90b443d0$@plus.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912290705400015df0890b7@msapiro>

Clare Redstone wrote:
>
>I'm in the process of setting up Mailman for a discussion group of about 100
>members. From past experience, I know some people will prefer to have digest
>but they'll also probably just hit the "reply" button without editing the
>subject or deleting anything automatically included. I think this will mean
>their replies will contain the entire digest: difficult to work out which
>message they're replying to and using archive space on the server.
>
> 
>
>1.       How do I stop this happening?
>
> 
>
>At the moment, the only thing I can think of is to filter out messages
>containing "digest" in the subject line and hold those for moderation.


You can do that with Privacy options ... -> Spam filters ->
header_filter_rules, or you can just moderate all members or all
digest members and reject their posts until they learn. You can also
set General Options -> max_message_size small enough to catch these.
In particular, if digests are triggered on size only, you should be
able to find a sweet spot that will catch all quoted digests but not
most 'good' posts.	


>2.       Can I also filter messages with "digest" in the body? I can't see
>where to do this in the administrative interface.


No. Filtering on anything in the message body requires a custom
handler. See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/l4A9>.


>3.       When I'm reviewing a message held for moderation, can I edit it to
>remove unwanted bits of the digest? I need to do this without altering the
>sender's details so members know the message is from them and not from me?
>When I click on the message in the moderation queue, I can see a message
>excerpt but can't see how to edit it.


Without source modifications, you can't edit a held message from the
admindb interface. What you can do depends on your MUA. I do the
following occasionally (when a quoted digest is held for size). I have
admin_immed_notify set to yes, so I receive a notice containing the
post as part 2 of 3 message parts. First, I discard the original held
message. Then, using Mutt, I open the notice and then the
message/rfc822 part containing the post, edit it and then 'bounce' it
to the list. 'Bounce' is Mutt's term for resending the original
message to additional recipients. This is not forwarding; it is
resending with the original headers. Not all MUAs can do this.

Also see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/24A9>.

OTOH, you'll get more mileage in the long run by rejecting the post and
requiring the user to generate a proper reply.


>4.       If messages have got through with lots of unwanted text, is it
>possible for me to edit them in the archive? Otherwise my archive may be
>unnecessarily large and I can't afford endless server space.


This requires shell access to the server. See the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/OAB0>. (Note: These days, file space is a lot
cheaper than your time to do this, even if you do it as a hobby.)


Also note that if the members subscribe to the MIME format digest (make
it the default), many MUAs allow opening an individual message from
the digest and replying to it alone. It might be easier to train your
users if they have this ability.

Aside: I would think this behavior would be self correcting as it
renders digests (particularly plain format digests) virtually
unreadable, but the ability of users to blindly act in opposition to
their own interests continues to amaze me. I guess that when replying
to the current digest, the readability of the next digest is what
economists call an externality.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 29 16:32:46 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 07:32:46 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive access Forbidden
In-Reply-To: <200912291503.46908.david@vizion2000.net>
Message-ID: <PC195200912290732460937040e7297@msapiro>

David Southwell wrote:

>Thank you in advance for replies. The list is now working fine however access 
>to the archive is blocked
[...]
>dns1# pwd                         
>/usr/local/mailman                
>dns1# ls -l                       
>total 36                          
>drwxrwsr-x  11 mailman  mailman  2048 Dec 29 09:03 Mailman
>drwxrwsr-x   4 www      www       512 Dec 28 13:07 archives


This and everything subordinate to it needs to be group mailman.


>drwxrwsr-x   2 root     mailman  1024 Dec 28 13:07 bin     
>drwxrwsr-x   2 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 cgi-bin 
>drwxrwsr-x   2 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 cron
>drwxrwsr-x   2 mailman  mailman   512 Dec 28 15:54 data
>drwxrwsr-x   2 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 icons
>drwxrwsr-x   6 mailman  mailman   512 Dec 28 15:45 lists
>drwxrwsr-x   2 root     mailman   512 Dec 29 14:00 locks
>drwxrwsr-x   2 mailman  mailman   512 Dec 29 09:04 logs
>drwxrwsr-x   2 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 mail
>drwxrwsr-x  37 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 messages
>drwxrwsr-x   5 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 pythonlib
>drwxrwsr-x  11 mailman  mailman   512 Dec 28 15:54 qfiles
>drwxrwsr-x   2 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 scripts
>drwxrwsr-x   2 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 spam
>drwxrwsr-x  38 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 templates
>drwxrwsr-x   4 root     mailman   512 Dec 28 13:07 tests
>dns1# cd archives
>dns1# ls -l
>total 4
>drwxrws---  10 www  www  512 Dec 28 15:45 private


The owner of archives/private needs to be the user the web server runs
as. I would think that would be 'www', but then I don't understand why
public archive access doesn't work.

See <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node9.html> for info on
archives/private. Normally, it is o+x, but if not, it needs to be
owned by the web server user but still group mailman.

check_perms should fix a lot of this, but you may also need to do

chggrp -R mailman /usr/local/mailman/archives/

and possibly

for d in `find /usr/local/mailman/archives/ -type d -print` ; do
   chmod g+s $d
done

With the ownership and permissions you have here, Mailman shouldn't be
able to even store anything in the archives.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From s.watkins at nhm.ac.uk  Tue Dec 29 16:39:53 2009
From: s.watkins at nhm.ac.uk (Steff Watkins)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 15:39:53 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive access Forbidden
In-Reply-To: <200912291503.46908.david@vizion2000.net>
References: <200912291503.46908.david@vizion2000.net>
Message-ID: <8A17F10FEBA5C841956578C5AD9027D314175F@HOMER.nhm.ac.uk>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mailman-users-bounces+s.watkins=nhm.ac.uk at python.org 
> [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+s.watkins=nhm.ac.uk at python.org] 
> On Behalf Of David Southwell
> Sent: 29 December 2009 15:04
> To: mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive access Forbidden


> with result:
> Forbidden
> You don't have permission to 
> access/pipermail/bps_comps_print_announce/ on this server
> 
> Attempt to view archives from Topic Section of the mailing 
> list administration page using link for> Go to list archives 
> also fails
> 
> Extract from httpd-error.log
> [Tue Dec 29 12:50:12 2009] [error] [client 62.49.197.51] 
> attempt to invoke directory as script: 
> /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/ [Tue Dec 29 12:50:47 2009] 
> [error] [client 62.49.197.51] Symbolic link not allowed or 
> link target not accessible: 
> /usr/local/mailman/archives/public/bps_comps_print_announce, referer: 
> http://www.vizion2000.net/mailman/listinfo/bps_comps_print_announce
> 
> Extract from httpd.conf
> ScriptAlias /mailman      "/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin"
> <Directory "/usr/local/mailman">
>         Options FollowSymLinks ExecCGI
>         AllowOverride None
>         Order allow,deny
>         Allow from all
>      </Directory>
> ScriptAlias /pipermail "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public"
> <Directory "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public">
>  Options FollowSymLinks ExecCGI
>        AllowOverride None
>        Order allow,deny
>           Allow from all
> Options Indexes MultiViews
>   AddDefaultCharset Off
>     </Directory>

Hi,

 I'm guessing that the directory indexing mechanism of Apache is getting
confused. 

The line

  ScriptAlias /pipermail "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public"

tells apache that anything with a URI starting with /pipermail is a
script, so Apache will take any call to that URI as a call for an
exectuable.

Looking at my local setup I see that the only indexing material in the
'archive/public' subdirectories are the file index.html.

So you have to configure Apache to look for index.html as the indexing
mechanism within a "script only" directory. Something like:

  <Directory "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public">
    ....
    ....
   DirectoryIndex index.html
   </Directory>

should do the trick. Don't forget to restart Apache after adding that
line.

HTH,
S Watkins

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 29 16:50:08 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 07:50:08 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive access Forbidden
In-Reply-To: <8A17F10FEBA5C841956578C5AD9027D314175F@HOMER.nhm.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <PC19520091229075008046876406edc@msapiro>

Steff Watkins wrote:
>
> I'm guessing that the directory indexing mechanism of Apache is getting
>confused. 
>
>The line
>
>  ScriptAlias /pipermail "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public"
>
>tells apache that anything with a URI starting with /pipermail is a
>script, so Apache will take any call to that URI as a call for an
>exectuable.


Good catch! I missed that. It should be

Alias /pipermail "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public"

not ScriptAlias.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From david at vizion2000.net  Tue Dec 29 17:23:22 2009
From: david at vizion2000.net (David Southwell)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 16:23:22 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive access Forbidden
In-Reply-To: <PC19520091229075008046876406edc@msapiro>
References: <PC19520091229075008046876406edc@msapiro>
Message-ID: <200912291623.22340.david@vizion2000.net>

> Steff Watkins wrote:
> > I'm guessing that the directory indexing mechanism of Apache is getting
> >confused.
> >
> >The line
> >
> >  ScriptAlias /pipermail "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public"
> >
> >tells apache that anything with a URI starting with /pipermail is a
> >script, so Apache will take any call to that URI as a call for an
> >exectuable.
> 
> Good catch! I missed that. It should be
> 
> Alias /pipermail "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public"
> 
> not ScriptAlias.
> 
OK guys -- thank you everyone BUT BUT

still no success I changed the entries in httpd.conf and restarted the server 
but still get the same result.

As a matter of curiosity I tried http://www.vizion2000.net/pipermail which 
simply gave me a page
Index of /pipermail
. Parent Directory

Following the link > Parent Directory took me to

http://www.vizion2000.net/

So we know the Alias pipermail line in httpd.conf is being read but we still 
get no further. It seems there must be something wrong with the httpd.conf so 
I am reposting it as it now stands:

   Options Indexes FollowSymLinks

    #
    # AllowOverride controls what directives may be placed in .htaccess files.
    # It can be "All", "None", or any combination of the keywords:
    #   Options FileInfo AuthConfig Limit
    #
    AllowOverride None

    #
    # Controls who can get stuff from this server.
    #
    Order allow,deny
    Allow from all

</Directory>
ScriptAlias /mailman     " /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin"
<Directory "/usr/local/mailman">
        Options FollowSymLinks ExecCGI
        AllowOverride None
        Order allow,deny
        Allow from all
     </Directory>
Alias /pipermail "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public"
<Directory "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public/">
 Options FollowSymLinks ExecCGI
       AllowOverride None
       Order allow,deny
          Allow from all
Options Indexes MultiViews
  AddDefaultCharset Off
DirectoryIndex index.html
    </Directory>

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Tue Dec 29 17:38:15 2009
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 11:38:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to digests
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912290705400015df0890b7@msapiro>
References: <PC195200912290705400015df0890b7@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4B3A3077.1010406@libertytrek.org>

On 2009-12-29, Mark Sapiro (mark at msapiro.net) wrote:
> Also note that if the members subscribe to the MIME format digest (make
> it the default), many MUAs allow opening an individual message from
> the digest and replying to it alone. It might be easier to train your
> users if they have this ability.

I don't recall where, but I have seen some digest lists that actually
have Reply/Forward 'links' for each message in the digest in the
included 'headers' of each individual message in the digest. Using these
links creates a reply identical to one that would be generated if the
message had been received individually.

Any chance of Mailman ever being able to do that? Or is that what you
are talking about with the MIME format digest?

From s.watkins at nhm.ac.uk  Tue Dec 29 18:10:59 2009
From: s.watkins at nhm.ac.uk (Steff Watkins)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 17:10:59 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive access Forbidden
In-Reply-To: <200912291623.22340.david@vizion2000.net>
References: <PC19520091229075008046876406edc@msapiro>
	<200912291623.22340.david@vizion2000.net>
Message-ID: <8A17F10FEBA5C841956578C5AD9027D3141761@HOMER.nhm.ac.uk>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Southwell [mailto:david at vizion2000.net] 
> Sent: 29 December 2009 16:23
> To: mailman-users at python.org
> Cc: Mark Sapiro; Steff Watkins
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Archive access Forbidden

> OK guys -- thank you everyone BUT BUT

> Alias /pipermail "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public"
> <Directory "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public/">
>  Options FollowSymLinks ExecCGI
>        AllowOverride None
>        Order allow,deny
>           Allow from all
> Options Indexes MultiViews
>   AddDefaultCharset Off
> DirectoryIndex index.html
>     </Directory>

Errm... suggestion... tidy up! :) 

AFAIK Apache doesn't allow you to just sequently "add" Options lines
together. If I've read it correctly, the "Options Indexes MultiViews"
would cancel the "Options FollowSymLinks ExecCGI" as it is a later
instruction.. I could be wrong on that, been a while since I went
grubbing around in Apache's mechanics.

My own setup for this looks like:

    Alias /pipermail/ "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public/"

    <Directory "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public">
        Options FollowSymLinks
        AllowOverride None
        Order allow,deny
        Allow from all
    </Directory>

No Indexes, no Multiviews and definitely No ExecCGI. Something just
makes me feels queasy about making a web archive of a public mailing
list in a way that it might be possible to have someone include a script
in the mail that may have an ever so slight chance of executing. You're
not running SSIs, are you?

Really, make life as easy as possible for yourself. K.I.S.S... Kiss It
Simple, Sunshine! As simple as you can possibly get away with.

One other problem with this is that we only see the "relevent" part of
the httpd.conf file. I am not knocking you for that, security minded
people work on the idea of least-disclosed the better. Problem is that
there may be a directive in some other part of the httpd.conf file which
totally banjaxs your mailman setup.

Are you in a position to run a test instance of the webserver, say on
something like port 8080 with a totally plain-vanilla stock httpd.conf
file? You could then inject the mailman configuration into that and see
what is needed to make it work. If you then inject those changes into
your standard (port 80) httpd.conf and they still fail, you would at
least know that there was some directive in the original webserver setup
that was playing havok with your mailman setup.

Regards,
S Watkins


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 29 19:29:22 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:29:22 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive access Forbidden
In-Reply-To: <8A17F10FEBA5C841956578C5AD9027D3141761@HOMER.nhm.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <PC1952009122910292203755099c3cd@msapiro>

Steff Watkins wrote:
>> From: David Southwell [mailto:david at vizion2000.net]=20
>
>> OK guys -- thank you everyone BUT BUT
>
>> Alias /pipermail "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public"
>> <Directory "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public/">
>>  Options FollowSymLinks ExecCGI
>>        AllowOverride None
>>        Order allow,deny
>>           Allow from all
>> Options Indexes MultiViews
>>   AddDefaultCharset Off
>> DirectoryIndex index.html
>>     </Directory>
>
>Errm... suggestion... tidy up! :)
>
>AFAIK Apache doesn't allow you to just sequently "add" Options lines
>together. If I've read it correctly, the "Options Indexes MultiViews"
>would cancel the "Options FollowSymLinks ExecCGI" as it is a later
>instruction.. I could be wrong on that, been a while since I went
>grubbing around in Apache's mechanics.


That is correct. You can add options with a + as in

  Options FollowSymLinks ExecCGI
  Options +Indexes +MultiViews

but without + to add or - to take away, The options will replace any
prior options.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 29 19:43:47 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:43:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to digests
In-Reply-To: <4B3A3077.1010406@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <PC195200912291043470140079bb7bb@msapiro>

Tanstaafl wrote:
>
>I don't recall where, but I have seen some digest lists that actually
>have Reply/Forward 'links' for each message in the digest in the
>included 'headers' of each individual message in the digest. Using these
>links creates a reply identical to one that would be generated if the
>message had been received individually.


This sounds like something with a web based 'archive' that allows
replying/forwarding via the web.


>Any chance of Mailman ever being able to do that? Or is that what you
>are talking about with the MIME format digest?


The MIME format digest does allow something like this if your MUA
supports it, but I don't think it's what you're talking about.

MM3 will have more flexibility to enable doing things like this. You
may eventually see it in MM 3.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Tue Dec 29 20:02:13 2009
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 14:02:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to digests
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912291043470140079bb7bb@msapiro>
References: <PC195200912291043470140079bb7bb@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4B3A5235.5000700@libertytrek.org>

On 2009-12-29 1:43 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Tanstaafl wrote:
>> I don't recall where, but I have seen some digest lists that actually
>> have Reply/Forward 'links' for each message in the digest in the
>> included 'headers' of each individual message in the digest. Using these
>> links creates a reply identical to one that would be generated if the
>> message had been received individually.

> This sounds like something with a web based 'archive' that allows
> replying/forwarding via the web.

No, it was definitely in an HTML formatted digest list...

But now that I think about it, I may be mistaken about the resulting
reply being the same... ok, I just went and looked - it was Yahoo Group
Digest messages...

I really like the way these digests work. You can click on a message in
the summary at the top and it scrolls down to that message.

Then it has 'Reply to sender' and 'Reply to Group' links, as well as a
'Back to top' link at the bottom of each message which makes it easy to
get back to the summary if you are cherry picking which messages you
want to read - *very* useful for busy lists that have a lot of messages.

It does reply with the correct Subject when you use those links, but it
does *not* generate In-Reply-To headers, which is the only shortcoming I
can see.

>> Any chance of Mailman ever being able to do that? Or is that what you
>> are talking about with the MIME format digest?

> The MIME format digest does allow something like this if your MUA
> supports it, but I don't think it's what you're talking about.
> 
> MM3 will have more flexibility to enable doing things like this. You
> may eventually see it in MM 3.

As one who does not hate HTML messages like some people do - especially
for things like this where the HTML code can provide extremely useful
behavior like this - I really do hope that Mailman can (will) be
extended with this kind of functionality some day.

-- 

Best regards,

Charles

From clare at catspaw.plus.com  Tue Dec 29 22:19:44 2009
From: clare at catspaw.plus.com (Clare Redstone)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 21:19:44 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to digests
In-Reply-To: <4B3A5235.5000700@libertytrek.org>
References: <PC195200912291043470140079bb7bb@msapiro>
	<4B3A5235.5000700@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <000f01ca88cc$a49b7d80$edd27880$@plus.com>

>>it was Yahoo Group Digest messages...

I really like the way these digests work. You can click on a message in the
summary at the top and it scrolls down to that message.<<

Yes, that was the first thing I noticed, trying out the Mailman digest -
that it doesn't do this, so takes a bit longer viewing messages in a digest.

>> Then it has 'Reply to sender' and 'Reply to Group' links, as well as a
'Back to top' link at the bottom of each message which makes it easy to get
back to the summary if you are cherry picking which messages you want to
read - *very* useful for busy lists that have a lot of messages.<<

I'd forgotten about the "reply to" links the Yahoo digests have as well.

The Mailman MIME digest works pretty well for me in Outlook 2007. One
attachment has the list of messages, then each message is a separate
attachment so can be viewed and replied to individually. Keeping correct
subject. It doesn't work in Yahoo Mail though :(

I'd be very happy if digests in the next MM can be navigated and replied to
individually with ease.

In the mean time, I'll follow Mark's suggestions. (Those I can work out how
to do!)

Clare



From clare at catspaw.plus.com  Tue Dec 29 23:46:30 2009
From: clare at catspaw.plus.com (Clare Redstone)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 22:46:30 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to digests
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912290705400015df0890b7@msapiro>
References: <014e01ca87de$85916bf0$90b443d0$@plus.com>
	<PC195200912290705400015df0890b7@msapiro>
Message-ID: <006401ca88d8$c3966f90$4ac34eb0$@plus.com>

Thanks for this very helpful reply, Mark.

I'm going to follow your advice and mainly aim at training members. I do
want to be flexible about this though: some infrequent posters have some
very good things to say that will help us all. But they're also probably
more likely to be a bit computer-fearful and want digests because busy
inboxes confound them but not be aware of editing subject and body. I really
don't want to be so strict that I frighten them off posting.

So:

Step 1a, filtering "digest" from headers will pick up most and I'll send
those back to members to clean up for themselves. (But sometimes do what I
can myself-see below.)

Step 1b, I'll set default as MIME which will help in some cases, depending
on MUA.

Step 2, set repeat offenders to moderate, or if it's a widespread problem,
every now and then check through the subscriber list and set all digest
people to moderate.

I might exceptionally see if I can edit and resend messages when I think
it's particularly worth it and the sender likely to be flummoxed by being
asked to clean and resend. I'm having trouble following the instructions
though.

I use Outlook 2007 on Windows XP so don't have Mutt.

>> What you can do depends on your MUA. I do the
following occasionally (when a quoted digest is held for size). I have
admin_immed_notify set to yes, so I receive a notice containing the
post as part 2 of 3 message parts. First, I discard the original held
message. Then, using Mutt, I open the notice and then the
message/rfc822 part containing the post, edit it...<<

In Outlook, I get an email telling me there's a message waiting for
authorisation, with 2 attachments: one called by the post subject and the
other called "confirm 2ff72..." long string of numbers/letters.

Test 1. "Subject" is the actual rogue post. I can use reply or forward, edit
the message and address it to the list. I changed options to send in plain
text, wrote approved: password at the top of the body and, just below that,
changed the line "To: testlist at ..." to "Resent-To: testlist@ ..."

The message made it through OK, but appears to be from me instead of from
the original sender, and has the headers written at the top of the body of
the message in the same way any replied to or forwarded email would have
(albeit changed to Resent-To.)

So I've got it working in part and this will do if there isn't a
straightforward solution. The "approved" bit worked and I could edit the
message, but how do I make a "Resent-To" instead of a "Forward?"

Which is what I think you mean by:
 >>and then 'bounce' it
to the list. 'Bounce' is Mutt's term for resending the original
message to additional recipients. This is not forwarding; it is
resending with the original headers. Not all MUAs can do this.<<

Is it possible in Outlook?

Another odd thing is that although it's been approved (via email) and
received by list members, the original post is still sitting in the admin
queue on the web interface. So I'll need to remember to delete it manually.

One of the wiki pages you linked to, about editing messages before approving
them (thank you, very helpful) says,

>>If this feature is not available in your MUA, you can still post the
edited message directly if you are on a
machine with an MTA, e.g., sendmail, etc., by saving the edited message in a
file and giving a command
similar to the following:
/path/to/sendmail list at example.com < edited_message_file<<

I haven't a clue what any of that means so guess it's beyond me.

Thanks for the other links too. I'll explore them but after a quick read, I
think it's likely to be beyond me. Good advice too about server space being
so cheap compared with the amount of time I could spend tidying up digests
and archives.

Thank you again for such a helpful reply. Any solutions getting Resent-To
(Bounce?) to work through Outlook?

Clare

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark at msapiro.net] 
Sent: 29 December 2009 15:06
To: Clare Redstone; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Replying to digests

Clare Redstone wrote:
>
>I'm in the process of setting up Mailman for a discussion group of about
100
>members. From past experience, I know some people will prefer to have
digest
>but they'll also probably just hit the "reply" button without editing the
>subject or deleting anything automatically included. I think this will mean
>their replies will contain the entire digest: difficult to work out which
>message they're replying to and using archive space on the server.
>
> 
>
>1.       How do I stop this happening?
>
> 
>
>At the moment, the only thing I can think of is to filter out messages
>containing "digest" in the subject line and hold those for moderation.


You can do that with Privacy options ... -> Spam filters ->
header_filter_rules, or you can just moderate all members or all
digest members and reject their posts until they learn. You can also
set General Options -> max_message_size small enough to catch these.
In particular, if digests are triggered on size only, you should be
able to find a sweet spot that will catch all quoted digests but not
most 'good' posts.	


>2.       Can I also filter messages with "digest" in the body? I can't see
>where to do this in the administrative interface.


No. Filtering on anything in the message body requires a custom
handler. See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/l4A9>.


>3.       When I'm reviewing a message held for moderation, can I edit it to
>remove unwanted bits of the digest? I need to do this without altering the
>sender's details so members know the message is from them and not from me?
>When I click on the message in the moderation queue, I can see a message
>excerpt but can't see how to edit it.


Without source modifications, you can't edit a held message from the
admindb interface. What you can do depends on your MUA. I do the
following occasionally (when a quoted digest is held for size). I have
admin_immed_notify set to yes, so I receive a notice containing the
post as part 2 of 3 message parts. First, I discard the original held
message. Then, using Mutt, I open the notice and then the
message/rfc822 part containing the post, edit it and then 'bounce' it
to the list. 'Bounce' is Mutt's term for resending the original
message to additional recipients. This is not forwarding; it is
resending with the original headers. Not all MUAs can do this.

Also see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/24A9>.

OTOH, you'll get more mileage in the long run by rejecting the post and
requiring the user to generate a proper reply.


>4.       If messages have got through with lots of unwanted text, is it
>possible for me to edit them in the archive? Otherwise my archive may be
>unnecessarily large and I can't afford endless server space.


This requires shell access to the server. See the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/OAB0>. (Note: These days, file space is a lot
cheaper than your time to do this, even if you do it as a hobby.)


Also note that if the members subscribe to the MIME format digest (make
it the default), many MUAs allow opening an individual message from
the digest and replying to it alone. It might be easier to train your
users if they have this ability.

Aside: I would think this behavior would be self correcting as it
renders digests (particularly plain format digests) virtually
unreadable, but the ability of users to blindly act in opposition to
their own interests continues to amaze me. I guess that when replying
to the current digest, the readability of the next digest is what
economists call an externality.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec 30 00:53:14 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 15:53:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to digests
In-Reply-To: <006401ca88d8$c3966f90$4ac34eb0$@plus.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912291553140046e447a57c@msapiro>

Clare Redstone wrote:
>
>I might exceptionally see if I can edit and resend messages when I think
>it's particularly worth it and the sender likely to be flummoxed by being
>asked to clean and resend. I'm having trouble following the instructions
>though.
>
>I use Outlook 2007 on Windows XP so don't have Mutt.
>
>>> What you can do depends on your MUA. I do the
>following occasionally (when a quoted digest is held for size). I have
>admin_immed_notify set to yes, so I receive a notice containing the
>post as part 2 of 3 message parts. First, I discard the original held
>message. Then, using Mutt, I open the notice and then the
>message/rfc822 part containing the post, edit it...<<
>
>In Outlook, I get an email telling me there's a message waiting for
>authorisation, with 2 attachments: one called by the post subject and the
>other called "confirm 2ff72..." long string of numbers/letters.


Yes, that's correct. The one with the 'confirm ...' subject can be used
to approve or discard the original. If you open that message and reply
to it, the original post will be discarded. If you insert "Approved:
<password>" as the first line of that reply, the original UNEDITED
post will ba accepted for the list.


>Test 1. "Subject" is the actual rogue post. I can use reply or forward, edit
>the message and address it to the list. I changed options to send in plain
>text, wrote approved: password at the top of the body and, just below that,
>changed the line "To: testlist at ..." to "Resent-To: testlist@ ..."


The Approved: <password> here may or may not be needed. It is only to
ensure that the resent message doesn't get held a second time. If you
edit out the things that caused it to be held, you don't need the
Approved: <password>.


>The message made it through OK, but appears to be from me instead of from
>the original sender, and has the headers written at the top of the body of
>the message in the same way any replied to or forwarded email would have
>(albeit changed to Resent-To.)


Yes. That is because you are replying or forwarding. The headers you
are editing are copies of the original message headers in the body of
your reply/forward. You are effectively creating a new message From:
you to the list, and this is not what you want to do.


>So I've got it working in part and this will do if there isn't a
>straightforward solution. The "approved" bit worked and I could edit the
>message, but how do I make a "Resent-To" instead of a "Forward?"


The Approved: bit may or may not have been required as I note above.


>Which is what I think you mean by:
> >>and then 'bounce' it
>to the list. 'Bounce' is Mutt's term for resending the original
>message to additional recipients. This is not forwarding; it is
>resending with the original headers. Not all MUAs can do this.<<
>
>Is it possible in Outlook?


I don't know. What happens if you drag the attachment containing the
original message to your "Drafts" folder? Do you have such a thing? If
so, you might be able to do that, and then edit the "draft" and send
it. I don't know if that would work, but it is worth a try.


>Another odd thing is that although it's been approved (via email) and
>received by list members, the original post is still sitting in the admin
>queue on the web interface. So I'll need to remember to delete it manually.


Right. The original post will always have to be manually deleted. Even
if you get the editing down so the resend is From: the original sender
with the original Message-ID: and In-Reply-To: and References: headers
(for threading in the archives, although if it's a reply to a digest,
it won't be threaded anyway), it's still a separate post as far as
Mailman is concerned, and the original has to be manually discarded.


>One of the wiki pages you linked to, about editing messages before approving
>them (thank you, very helpful) says,
>
>>>If this feature is not available in your MUA, you can still post the
>edited message directly if you are on a
>machine with an MTA, e.g., sendmail, etc., by saving the edited message in a
>file and giving a command
>similar to the following:
>/path/to/sendmail list at example.com < edited_message_file<<
>
>I haven't a clue what any of that means so guess it's beyond me.


That is not directly applicable to Windows XP without installing other
software. It would be possible to do this with a Windows MUA like
popcorn <http://www.ultrafunk.com/popcorn/>.

If you configured popcorn to be able to send mail, you could save the
original message part from outlook and then open it as a draft with
popcorn and then edit and send it. That is possibly the easiest thing
if you need to install something, but try the outlook drafts idea
first.


>Thank you again for such a helpful reply. Any solutions getting Resent-To
>(Bounce?) to work through Outlook?


Try the drafts idea. There may actually be a way to directly resend a
message from outlook, but I know little about it, and the drafts trick
is all I can think of.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Wed Dec 30 13:14:49 2009
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 07:14:49 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to digests
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912291553140046e447a57c@msapiro>
References: <PC195200912291553140046e447a57c@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4B3B4439.4020703@libertytrek.org>

On 2009-12-29 6:53 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Clare Redstone wrote:
>> Thank you again for such a helpful reply. Any solutions getting Resent-To
>> (Bounce?) to work through Outlook?

> Try the drafts idea. There may actually be a way to directly resend a
> message from outlook, but I know little about it, and the drafts trick
> is all I can think of.

To do this in Outlook (2003 at least), open the message, then:

Tools > Actions > Resend this message

-- 

Best regards,

Charles

From clare at catspaw.plus.com  Wed Dec 30 13:37:58 2009
From: clare at catspaw.plus.com (Clare Redstone)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 12:37:58 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to digests
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912291553140046e447a57c@msapiro>
References: <006401ca88d8$c3966f90$4ac34eb0$@plus.com>
	<PC195200912291553140046e447a57c@msapiro>
Message-ID: <005d01ca894c$eaceed70$c06cc850$@plus.com>

Thanks again for your help.

1.
>>Test 1. "Subject" is the actual rogue post. I can use reply or 
>>forward, edit the message and address it to the list. I changed 
>>options to send in plain text, wrote approved: password at the top of 
>>the body and, just below that, changed the line "To: testlist at ..." to
"Resent-To: testlist@ >>..."


>The Approved: <password> here may or may not be needed. It is only to
ensure that the resent message doesn't get held a second time. If you edit
out the things that caused it to be held, you don't need the Approved:
<password>.   <

I just checked what was happening again. Even with "approved: password" at
the beginning of the message I forwarded, MM filtered on the taboo word
("digest") in the subject. So if I want to edit a message body, I need to
edit the subject too. Which isn't a problem as that's one of the things I'd
be changing in any case.

Approving by replying to the "confirm" email with approved: password accepts
the taboo word.

An oddity but not a problem.

2. Thanks for the suggestion to drag the message into drafts. Unfortunately
it only opens as an email to be read, not as an email I can edit. :(

But.. finally I worked out what to put in Google to find help and discovered
"Other actions - resend."

So, for anyone else wanting to do this in Outlook:
- MM is set to notify me of held messages.
- double click the attachment called the subject (that has the filtered word
"digest" in it.)
- "Other actions > resend"
- Edit subject (even with approved:pw in the body, MM won't let "digest"
through the filter) and body.
- Send.

And the message reaches the list, edited, but with the original sender as
"from."

I'm there!

Thanks for your help.

Clare

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark at msapiro.net] 
Sent: 29 December 2009 23:53
To: Clare Redstone; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Replying to digests

Clare Redstone wrote:
>
>I might exceptionally see if I can edit and resend messages when I think
>it's particularly worth it and the sender likely to be flummoxed by being
>asked to clean and resend. I'm having trouble following the instructions
>though.
>
>I use Outlook 2007 on Windows XP so don't have Mutt.
>
>>> What you can do depends on your MUA. I do the
>following occasionally (when a quoted digest is held for size). I have
>admin_immed_notify set to yes, so I receive a notice containing the
>post as part 2 of 3 message parts. First, I discard the original held
>message. Then, using Mutt, I open the notice and then the
>message/rfc822 part containing the post, edit it...<<
>
>In Outlook, I get an email telling me there's a message waiting for
>authorisation, with 2 attachments: one called by the post subject and the
>other called "confirm 2ff72..." long string of numbers/letters.


Yes, that's correct. The one with the 'confirm ...' subject can be used
to approve or discard the original. If you open that message and reply
to it, the original post will be discarded. If you insert "Approved:
<password>" as the first line of that reply, the original UNEDITED
post will ba accepted for the list.


>Test 1. "Subject" is the actual rogue post. I can use reply or forward,
edit
>the message and address it to the list. I changed options to send in plain
>text, wrote approved: password at the top of the body and, just below that,
>changed the line "To: testlist at ..." to "Resent-To: testlist@ ..."


The Approved: <password> here may or may not be needed. It is only to
ensure that the resent message doesn't get held a second time. If you
edit out the things that caused it to be held, you don't need the
Approved: <password>.


>The message made it through OK, but appears to be from me instead of from
>the original sender, and has the headers written at the top of the body of
>the message in the same way any replied to or forwarded email would have
>(albeit changed to Resent-To.)


Yes. That is because you are replying or forwarding. The headers you
are editing are copies of the original message headers in the body of
your reply/forward. You are effectively creating a new message From:
you to the list, and this is not what you want to do.


>So I've got it working in part and this will do if there isn't a
>straightforward solution. The "approved" bit worked and I could edit the
>message, but how do I make a "Resent-To" instead of a "Forward?"


The Approved: bit may or may not have been required as I note above.


>Which is what I think you mean by:
> >>and then 'bounce' it
>to the list. 'Bounce' is Mutt's term for resending the original
>message to additional recipients. This is not forwarding; it is
>resending with the original headers. Not all MUAs can do this.<<
>
>Is it possible in Outlook?


I don't know. What happens if you drag the attachment containing the
original message to your "Drafts" folder? Do you have such a thing? If
so, you might be able to do that, and then edit the "draft" and send
it. I don't know if that would work, but it is worth a try.


>Another odd thing is that although it's been approved (via email) and
>received by list members, the original post is still sitting in the admin
>queue on the web interface. So I'll need to remember to delete it manually.


Right. The original post will always have to be manually deleted. Even
if you get the editing down so the resend is From: the original sender
with the original Message-ID: and In-Reply-To: and References: headers
(for threading in the archives, although if it's a reply to a digest,
it won't be threaded anyway), it's still a separate post as far as
Mailman is concerned, and the original has to be manually discarded.


>One of the wiki pages you linked to, about editing messages before
approving
>them (thank you, very helpful) says,
>
>>>If this feature is not available in your MUA, you can still post the
>edited message directly if you are on a
>machine with an MTA, e.g., sendmail, etc., by saving the edited message in
a
>file and giving a command
>similar to the following:
>/path/to/sendmail list at example.com < edited_message_file<<
>
>I haven't a clue what any of that means so guess it's beyond me.


That is not directly applicable to Windows XP without installing other
software. It would be possible to do this with a Windows MUA like
popcorn <http://www.ultrafunk.com/popcorn/>.

If you configured popcorn to be able to send mail, you could save the
original message part from outlook and then open it as a draft with
popcorn and then edit and send it. That is possibly the easiest thing
if you need to install something, but try the outlook drafts idea
first.


>Thank you again for such a helpful reply. Any solutions getting Resent-To
>(Bounce?) to work through Outlook?


Try the drafts idea. There may actually be a way to directly resend a
message from outlook, but I know little about it, and the drafts trick
is all I can think of.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From argyros.george at gmail.com  Tue Dec 29 16:18:58 2009
From: argyros.george at gmail.com (George Argyros)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 17:18:58 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail server cannot communicate with mailman
Message-ID: <a477118b0912290718i5e7e5fc6offf291c1affbdc8f@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,
I am trying for some days now to setup mailman in debian but i am
running to the following problem:
Although mailman setup seems fine and the mail server (Exim or
Postfix) can send mail to any address, mailman and the mail server
cannot communicate. Every time i try to post a message to a list, or
send a password reminder from mailman etc. the mails never reach their
destination, and usually i get an error after some time.
As i mention above i tried both Exim and Postfix and ran into the same
problem. I have installed mailman from the repositories and as a web
server i use apache 2.
I would appreciate any suggestions on the problem.
Thanks in advance,
George

From chris.leleux at bitwiselogic.com  Wed Dec 30 03:48:32 2009
From: chris.leleux at bitwiselogic.com (Chris Leleux)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:48:32 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Admin Question
Message-ID: <001d01ca88fa$93990100$bacb0300$@leleux@bitwiselogic.com>

This is probably a stupid question, but I'm having trouble setting up a new
ListServ for a  client.

 

I have created a new mail list - and added an admin and moderator.  I've
created three members (using 3 email accounts of mine).  These three user
accounts have received the message they been "subscribed".  The problem is
when I send a message to the listserv - the one in the subscribe email,
nothing happens.  It's not held and yet it doesn't go anywhere.  However
when someone that's not a member sends a message to that same listserv -
those get held in the pending file (waiting for the moderator to accept
them.

 

What have I done wrong with the members?

Thanks,

 

Chris LeLeux
Bitwise Logic, Inc.
 <mailto:chris.leleux at bitwiselogic.com> chris.leleux at bitwiselogic.com
952-746-4360

 


From joemailgroups at gmail.com  Wed Dec 30 07:24:17 2009
From: joemailgroups at gmail.com (JRC Groups)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 22:24:17 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting up redundant mailing lists in OS X Snow
	Leopard.
Message-ID: <C7603211.16DEBF%joemailgroups@gmail>

Hi, everyone.

First I wish to say hello to everyone as I am a new member and this is my
first post to the list. I have just purchased a Mac server with Snow Leopard
server installed and one of the main reasons for the purchase was my plan to
set-up some mailing lists. The following are some questions I have:

While setting up Mailman mailing lists under Snow Leopard Server I've run
into some questions and thought I would ask here for help. These are the
questions:

Q1. In Mailman how are mailing list subscribers set-up ? Are subscribers
set-up separately or do they have to be set-up as users in Workgroup Manager
?

I would prefer to set-up subscribers to the mailing lists separately as they
are not members of my workgroup. Is there a configuration pane under Mailman
mailing lists for setting up subscribers ?

Q2. I am trying to set-up two versions of each mailing list so that one
version allows attachments to be forwarded to subscribers along with the
posts while the other version blocks the attachments and only forwards the
text portion of the post. How can this be set-up in Mailman ? How can I
manage attachment rules in Mailman and create this redundant mailing lists ?
Where are attachments sent along with posts to the lists saved in OS X
(folder address) ?

Thank you,

Joseph



From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Wed Dec 30 14:44:13 2009
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 13:44:13 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail server cannot communicate with mailman
In-Reply-To: <a477118b0912290718i5e7e5fc6offf291c1affbdc8f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a477118b0912290718i5e7e5fc6offf291c1affbdc8f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091230134413.GJ3079@amyl.org.uk>

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 05:18:58PM +0200, George Argyros wrote:
> I am trying for some days now to setup mailman in debian but i am
> running to the following problem:
> Although mailman setup seems fine and the mail server (Exim or
> Postfix) can send mail to any address, mailman and the mail server
> cannot communicate. Every time i try to post a message to a list, or
> send a password reminder from mailman etc. the mails never reach their
> destination, and usually i get an error after some time.

Having that error would be quite useful:
http://exim.org/howto/mailman21.html#lisver is quite useful for Exim.

Certainly for Exim, Exim needs some stanzas for Mailman, have you done
something along the lines of
    http://exim.org/howto/mailman21.html
?



-- 
``We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
  languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their
  pockets for new vocabulary.'' (Booker T. Washington)

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec 30 14:53:52 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 05:53:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Replying to digests
In-Reply-To: <005d01ca894c$eaceed70$c06cc850$@plus.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912300553520765bd2caff1@msapiro>

Clare Redstone quoted me and wrote:
>
>>The Approved: <password> here may or may not be needed. It is only to
>ensure that the resent message doesn't get held a second time. If you edit
>out the things that caused it to be held, you don't need the Approved:
><password>.   <
>
>I just checked what was happening again. Even with "approved: password" at
>the beginning of the message I forwarded, MM filtered on the taboo word
>("digest") in the subject. So if I want to edit a message body, I need to
>edit the subject too. Which isn't a problem as that's one of the things I'd
>be changing in any case.


Actually, there is a real problem with using an Approved:
header/pseudo-header in this context. It won't stop a post from being
held by header_filter_rules because SpamDetect comes before Approve in
the global handler pipeline, but there is a more serious problem. If a
message containing an Approved: header/pseudo-header is held by
header_filter_rules and subsequently approved, the Approved:
header/pseudo-header is not removed from the message.


>Approving by replying to the "confirm" email with approved: password accepts
>the taboo word.
>
>An oddity but not a problem.


Well, as I say above, it is a problem if you put an Approved:
header/pseudo-header in your edited message, and your edited message
gets held by header_filter_rules. In that case, when you approve the
edited message, the Approved: header/pseudo-header isn't removed.


>2. Thanks for the suggestion to drag the message into drafts. Unfortunately
>it only opens as an email to be read, not as an email I can edit. :(
>
>But.. finally I worked out what to put in Google to find help and discovered
>"Other actions - resend."
>
>So, for anyone else wanting to do this in Outlook:
>- MM is set to notify me of held messages.
>- double click the attachment called the subject (that has the filtered word
>"digest" in it.)
>- "Other actions > resend"
>- Edit subject (even with approved:pw in the body, MM won't let "digest"
>through the filter) and body.
>- Send.
>
>And the message reaches the list, edited, but with the original sender as
>"from."
>
>I'm there!


Cool!

I'm going to add your findings plus info about the Approved: header to
the FAQ. Thanks for reporting back.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec 30 15:06:04 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 06:06:04 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail server cannot communicate with mailman
In-Reply-To: <20091230134413.GJ3079@amyl.org.uk>
Message-ID: <PC195200912300606040484bd2caea8@msapiro>

Adam McGreggor wrote:

>On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 05:18:58PM +0200, George Argyros wrote:
>> I am trying for some days now to setup mailman in debian but i am
>> running to the following problem:
>> Although mailman setup seems fine and the mail server (Exim or
>> Postfix) can send mail to any address, mailman and the mail server
>> cannot communicate. Every time i try to post a message to a list, or
>> send a password reminder from mailman etc. the mails never reach their
>> destination, and usually i get an error after some time.
>
>Having that error would be quite useful:
>http://exim.org/howto/mailman21.html#lisver is quite useful for Exim.


Also, what is in Mailman's smtp and smtp-failure logs and Exim's
exim_main.log?


>Certainly for Exim, Exim needs some stanzas for Mailman, have you done
>something along the lines of
>    http://exim.org/howto/mailman21.html
>?


While this how-to is important, it is only for delivery to Mailman. It
doesn't affect delivery of outbound mail from Mailman.

However, that could be the problem here in that posts are not delivered
to Mailman. If other messages from Mailman are delivered, e.g.
subscription confirmation requests or list welcome messages, then the
problem is likely in delivery to Mailman and that how-to is very
relevant.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec 30 15:15:44 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 06:15:44 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Admin Question
In-Reply-To: <001d01ca88fa$93990100$bacb0300$@leleux@bitwiselogic.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912300615440640bd2caf6c@msapiro>

Chris Leleux wrote:

>This is probably a stupid question, but I'm having trouble setting up a new
>ListServ for a  client.


If you are setting up a ListServ (sic)[1], you've come to the wrong
place. This list is for Mailman lists, not ListServ lists.


>I have created a new mail list - and added an admin and moderator.  I've
>created three members (using 3 email accounts of mine).  These three user
>accounts have received the message they been "subscribed".  The problem is
>when I send a message to the listserv - the one in the subscribe email,
>nothing happens.  It's not held and yet it doesn't go anywhere.  However
>when someone that's not a member sends a message to that same listserv -
>those get held in the pending file (waiting for the moderator to accept
>them.


What's im Mailman's vette log (if you have access)? What hapens to the
held posts if you accept them?

Probably Content Filtering is discarding the messages, but it is hard
to say without more information.


[1] I know that use of Listserv(r) as a generic term to refer to an
email list or email list management software is ubiquitious, and I'm
just pissing in the wind to fight it, but Listserv(r) is a registered
trademark[2] owned by the developer of a particular email list
management product, and it shouldn't be used generically.

My personal interest in this is not to protect the Listserv(r)
trademark, but rather to avoid confusing Listserv(r) email list
management software with any other email list management software
including GNU Mailman of which I am a developer.

[2] <http://www.lsoft.com/corporate/trademark.asp>


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec 30 15:47:27 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 06:47:27 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting up redundant mailing lists in OS X
	SnowLeopard.
In-Reply-To: <C7603211.16DEBF%joemailgroups@gmail>
Message-ID: <PC1952009123006472702504f1ee6d5@msapiro>

JRC Groups wrote:
>
>While setting up Mailman mailing lists under Snow Leopard Server I've run
>into some questions and thought I would ask here for help. These are the
>questions:
>
>Q1. In Mailman how are mailing list subscribers set-up ? Are subscribers
>set-up separately or do they have to be set-up as users in Workgroup Manager
>?


List members are managed by Mailman as email addresses. They have
nothing to do with users on your server.


>I would prefer to set-up subscribers to the mailing lists separately as they
>are not members of my workgroup. Is there a configuration pane under Mailman
>mailing lists for setting up subscribers ?


If you ignore Apple's GUI and just use Mailman's web admin interface,
you can 'mass subscribe' members.

There are also command-line tools for adding members and syncing
membership with a flat file.

There are others on this list who know more about Apple's OS-X server
implementation of Mailman, but I'm not one of them.


>Q2. I am trying to set-up two versions of each mailing list so that one
>version allows attachments to be forwarded to subscribers along with the
>posts while the other version blocks the attachments and only forwards the
>text portion of the post. How can this be set-up in Mailman ? How can I
>manage attachment rules in Mailman and create this redundant mailing lists ?
>Where are attachments sent along with posts to the lists saved in OS X
>(folder address) ?


I'm not sure I understand the question. You can set up two lists with
two different names. Use Mailman's Content Filtering to specify what
will be accepted and what will be filtered out. If you mean you want
posts to be sent to one address and some people to receive attachments
and some not, you can use an umbrella list for this (search the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3> for "umbrella")


>Where are attachments sent along with posts to the lists saved in OS X
>(folder address) ?


Attachments not removed by content filtering are saved in the list's
archives. in a default Mailman install, this would be in
sub-directories of
/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/LISTNAME/attachments/. I think in
OS-X server, this translates to
/var/mailman/archives/private/LISTNAME/attachments/ or
/private/var/mailman/archives/private/LISTNAME/attachments/. See the
FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/QoA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From argyros.george at gmail.com  Wed Dec 30 18:07:39 2009
From: argyros.george at gmail.com (George Argyros)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:07:39 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail server cannot communicate with mailman
In-Reply-To: <PC195200912300606040484bd2caea8@msapiro>
References: <20091230134413.GJ3079@amyl.org.uk>
	<PC195200912300606040484bd2caea8@msapiro>
Message-ID: <a477118b0912300907v6ebe3fd6qf2c6d896e539ac83@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you for your answers.
I managed to make the outgoing mail of mailman to work with Exim. Now
password reminders, register confirmations etc are sended normally
from mailman.
However the incoming mails still cannot reach any mailing list,
although this time, the mail seems to be accepted by the Exim.
Additionally in the Exim mainlog i get the following error entry:
|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner foofoo <foofoo-owner@**********>
R=system_aliases defer (-30): pipe_transport unset in system_aliases
router
I' ve searched a bit in the internet, and i saw that this is a
relatively common error, however i didn't find any solutions.

In order to configure exim to work with mailman i followed the
instructions in the file /usr/share/doc/mailman/README.Exim4.Debian.

George


On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> Adam McGreggor wrote:
>
>>On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 05:18:58PM +0200, George Argyros wrote:
>>> I am trying for some days now to setup mailman in debian but i am
>>> running to the following problem:
>>> Although mailman setup seems fine and the mail server (Exim or
>>> Postfix) can send mail to any address, mailman and the mail server
>>> cannot communicate. Every time i try to post a message to a list, or
>>> send a password reminder from mailman etc. the mails never reach their
>>> destination, and usually i get an error after some time.
>>
>>Having that error would be quite useful:
>>http://exim.org/howto/mailman21.html#lisver is quite useful for Exim.
>
>
> Also, what is in Mailman's smtp and smtp-failure logs and Exim's
> exim_main.log?
>
>
>>Certainly for Exim, Exim needs some stanzas for Mailman, have you done
>>something along the lines of
>> ? ?http://exim.org/howto/mailman21.html
>>?
>
>
> While this how-to is important, it is only for delivery to Mailman. It
> doesn't affect delivery of outbound mail from Mailman.
>
> However, that could be the problem here in that posts are not delivered
> to Mailman. If other messages from Mailman are delivered, e.g.
> subscription confirmation requests or list welcome messages, then the
> problem is likely in delivery to Mailman and that how-to is very
> relevant.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> ? ? ? ?The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California ? ?better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Dec 30 20:46:30 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 11:46:30 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail server cannot communicate with mailman
In-Reply-To: <a477118b0912300907v6ebe3fd6qf2c6d896e539ac83@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912301146300250062ab918@msapiro>

George Argyros wrote:

>However the incoming mails still cannot reach any mailing list,
>although this time, the mail seems to be accepted by the Exim.
>Additionally in the Exim mainlog i get the following error entry:
>|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner foofoo <foofoo-owner@**********>
>R=3Dsystem_aliases defer (-30): pipe_transport unset in system_aliases
>router
>I' ve searched a bit in the internet, and i saw that this is a
>relatively common error, however i didn't find any solutions.


It appears that you are using aliases to deliver from Exim to Mailman.
While you can do this, it is by far preferable to set up Exim to
deliver programmatically as described at
http://exim.org/howto/mailman21.html.


>In order to configure exim to work with mailman i followed the
>instructions in the file /usr/share/doc/mailman/README.Exim4.Debian.


I am unfamiliar with that document, but if it discusses setting up a
mailman router and transport as in
http://exim.org/howto/mailman21.html, then your problem is that your
system_aliases router precedes your mailman router and you have
mailman aliases installed. If you are deliverian with a mailman
router, you should not have any mailman aliases and you should have

 MTA = None

in mm_cfg.py so Mailman doesn't bug you about aliases when you create
lists.

If you intend to deliver to Mailman using aliases, you need to be sure
your system_aliases: router definition includes "pipe_transport =
address_pipe" and an appropriate group= for mailman.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From parrotmom2 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Dec 30 14:36:17 2009
From: parrotmom2 at sbcglobal.net (Lark Burger)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 05:36:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help?
Message-ID: <427508.51310.qm@web82007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I've done something stupid, and I don't know how to get out of it.  I'm a moderator for the Knittingbeyondthehebrides group and I've accidentally banned a member.  I was half-awake and accidentally clicked on the "permanent ban" button instead of approving her.  Now I can't figure out how to get around that and approve the poor woman.  Can you help?  Is it possible to remove the ban from your end so that I may approve the membership?

Lark Burger


From adam-mailman at tanqueray.amyl.org.uk  Wed Dec 30 14:41:43 2009
From: adam-mailman at tanqueray.amyl.org.uk (adam-mailman at tanqueray.amyl.org.uk)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 13:41:43 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Admin Question
Message-ID: <20091230134143.GI3079@amyl.org.uk>

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 08:48:32PM -0600, Chris Leleux wrote:
> This is probably a stupid question, but I'm having trouble setting up a new
> ListServ for a  client.

How about redirecting your question to the listserv list?

-- 
``Freedom of the press in Britain means freedom to print such of the
  proprietor's prejudices as the advertisers don't object to.''
  (Hannen Swaffer)

From JLC2F at hscmail.mcc.virginia.edu  Wed Dec 30 22:01:27 2009
From: JLC2F at hscmail.mcc.virginia.edu (Cichon, Joan L *HS)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 16:01:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FW: listserv account vanished
Message-ID: <CA7B140F2F20CA43AC79DF86B7357ABDD656A7AECB@HSCSEMAIL32.hscs.virginia.edu>

Hello,

My ListServ seems to have gone missing.  I keep emailing you to get assistance (see below) and can't seem to get an answer.  Please respond.

Thanks,
Joan

Joan Cichon
Instructional Design Coordinator
Cardiovascular Division
University of Virginia

"Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the presence of creative alternatives for responding to conflict."  Dorothy Thompson

From: Cichon, Joan L *HS
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 8:50 AM
To: 'mailman at listserv.bnsi.net'
Subject: FW: listserv account vanished

Still can't find my ListServ.  Please respond.

Joan Cichon
Instructional Design Coordinator
Cardiovascular Division
University of Virginia

"Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the presence of creative alternatives for responding to conflict."  Dorothy Thompson

From: Cichon, Joan L *HS
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 8:24 AM
To: 'mailman at listserv.bnsi.net'
Subject: listserv account vanished

http://listserv.bnsi.net/mailman/admindb/cardiovillage

Went to the list serv to check on my mailing list and can't find it.  Any ideas?

Thanks,
Joan

Joan Cichon
Instructional Design Coordinator
Cardiovascular Division
University of Virginia
1215 Lane St. Rm 4008A
P.O. Box 800158
Charlottesville, VA 22908
jcichon at virginia.edu<mailto:jcichon at virginia.edu>
Tel:  (434) 982-6407
Fax: 434-982-1998
http://www.uvarealm.com<http://www.uvarealm.com/>
http://www.cardiovillage.com<http://www.cardiovillage.com/>

"Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the presence of creative alternatives for responding to conflict."  Dorothy Thompson


From rob.macgregor at gmail.com  Thu Dec 31 15:44:16 2009
From: rob.macgregor at gmail.com (Rob MacGregor)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:44:16 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help?
In-Reply-To: <427508.51310.qm@web82007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <427508.51310.qm@web82007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <43ea8d070912310644h5aa9930bx30014fe29c843e1f@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 13:36, Lark Burger <parrotmom2 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I've done something stupid, and I don't know how to get out of it. ?I'm a moderator for the Knittingbeyondthehebrides group and I've accidentally banned a member. ?I was half-awake and accidentally clicked on the "permanent ban" button instead of approving her. ?Now I can't figure out how to get around that and approve the poor woman. ?Can you help? ?Is it possible to remove the ban from your end so that I may approve the membership?

Note that this list is for support and assistance with GNU Mailman in
general, not specific installations.  Nobody here will be able to do
anything to your list for you.  I'm sure in due course however
somebody will be along who knows about Mailman to help you solve the
problem though.

-- 
                 Please keep list traffic on the list.

Rob MacGregor
      Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he
        doesn't become a monster.                  Friedrich Nietzsche

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 31 15:45:50 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:45:50 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help?
In-Reply-To: <427508.51310.qm@web82007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC195200912310645500765bfac46ef@msapiro>

Lark Burger wrote:

>I've done something stupid, and I don't know how to get out of it.  I'm a moderator for the Knittingbeyondthehebrides group and I've accidentally banned a member.  I was half-awake and accidentally clicked on the "permanent ban" button instead of approving her.  Now I can't figure out how to get around that and approve the poor woman.  Can you help?


If you have access to the list's admin interface, go to Privacy
options... -> Subscription rules and remove her address from the
ban_list.

If you only have assess to the moderator interface, contact the list
owner.


>Is it possible to remove the ban from your end so that I may approve the membership?


We have nothing at all to do with the management of your list. You need
to contact the list owner or the service that hosts your list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From rob.macgregor at gmail.com  Thu Dec 31 15:47:28 2009
From: rob.macgregor at gmail.com (Rob MacGregor)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:47:28 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FW: listserv account vanished
In-Reply-To: <CA7B140F2F20CA43AC79DF86B7357ABDD656A7AECB@HSCSEMAIL32.hscs.virginia.edu>
References: <CA7B140F2F20CA43AC79DF86B7357ABDD656A7AECB@HSCSEMAIL32.hscs.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <43ea8d070912310647m7c267abbn906359404010bc59@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 21:01, Cichon, Joan L *HS
<JLC2F at hscmail.mcc.virginia.edu> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> My ListServ seems to have gone missing. ?I keep emailing you to get assistance (see below) and can't seem to get an answer. ?Please respond.

<Cough> that's GNU Mailman, not the trademarked ListServ as I'm sure
Mark will point out in a moment ;)

Also, this isn't mailman at listserv.bnsi.net but the mailing list for
users of Mailman.  Unless the administrators of that happen to lurk
here nobody can help you with that specific problem.

-- 
                 Please keep list traffic on the list.

Rob MacGregor
      Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he
        doesn't become a monster.                  Friedrich Nietzsche

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Thu Dec 31 15:48:50 2009
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Tanstaafl)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 09:48:50 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help?
In-Reply-To: <427508.51310.qm@web82007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <427508.51310.qm@web82007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B3CB9D2.2040506@libertytrek.org>

On 2009-12-30 8:36 AM, Lark Burger wrote:
> Now
> I can't figure out how to get around that and approve the poor woman.
> Can you help?

Privacy options > Subscription rules > Ban list?

> Is it possible to remove the ban from your end so that I may approve
> the membership?

This is the general Mailman support list... only the person who controls
your particular Mailman installation can Administer your list(s).

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Dec 31 15:57:38 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:57:38 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FW: listserv account vanished
In-Reply-To: <CA7B140F2F20CA43AC79DF86B7357ABDD656A7AECB@HSCSEMAIL32.hscs.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1952009123106573806563a8f1676@msapiro>

Cichon, Joan L *HS wrote:
>
>My ListServ seems to have gone missing.


Mailman is not ListServ[1] although perhaps you can be forgiven seeing
that even your hosting service doesn't know the difference.


>I keep emailing you to get assistance (see below) and can't seem to get an answer.  Please respond.


mailman-users at python.org can't help you with this. The fact that uour
host doesn't know the difference between Listserv and Mailman suggests
that they also do not actually receive mail sent to
mailman at listserv.bnsi.net.

You will have to contact them in some other way.


[1] I know that use of Listserv(r) as a generic term to refer to an
email list or email list management software is ubiquitious, and I'm
just pissing in the wind to fight it, but Listserv(r) is a registered
trademark[2] owned by the developer of a particular email list
management product, and it shouldn't be used generically.

My personal interest in this is not to protect the Listserv(r)
trademark, but rather to avoid confusing Listserv(r) email list
management software with any other email list management software
including GNU Mailman of which I am a developer.

[2] <http://www.lsoft.com/corporate/trademark.asp>


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Thu Dec 31 17:47:11 2009
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 16:47:11 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?
In-Reply-To: <87skazpz5y.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <3.0.6.32.20091221184944.0253bba0@127.0.0.1>
	<3E871552-E8F7-4161-85B7-2E3536045C6F@shub-internet.org>
	<5e28j5hp6h2cddkveo37sps4ppfgus9i0c@4ax.com>
	<20091225011927.GG3079@amyl.org.uk>
	<87skazpz5y.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20091231164711.GQ3079@amyl.org.uk>

On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 11:26:01AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Adam McGreggor writes:
>  > However, with those caveats, one should be able to use the same
>  > *database*, and Joomla/Kunena/Drupal/phpBB2 could all co-exist, in the
>  > same database, just using different database table prefixes, e.g.,
> 
> I rather doubt that's what John wants.  I am guessing he wants *one*
> user database, *one* message database/archive, etc, etc 

LDAP FTW :)


-- 
``[These atrocities] -- they all happened, and they did not happen
  any the less because the Daily Telegraph has suddenly found out
  about them when it is five years too late.''
  (George Orwell, Looking Back on the Spanish War, 1942)