From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul  1 03:39:06 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:39:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman true virtual hosting
In-Reply-To: <418151.29884.qm@web76104.mail.sg1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008063018390606406d4cdfc6@msapiro>

Dony Tata wrote:

>can some body help me? i have true domain "true.org" and virtual domain "virtual.org" in DNS configure like this
[...]
>
>#.../mm_cfg.py
>DEFAULT_URL_HOST   = 'lists.true.org'
>DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'lists.true.org'


I think you probably want to add

VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
add_virtualhost('www.virtual.org', 'virtual.org')


>MTA = 'Postfix'
>POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['virtual.org']
>
>#postconf -n
>alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases
>alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases, hash:/etc/mailman/aliases
>command_directory = /usr/sbin
>config_directory = /etc/postfix
>daemon_directory = /usr/libexec/postfix
>debug_peer_level = 2
>html_directory = no
>inet_interfaces = all
>mail_owner = postfix
>mailq_path = /usr/bin/mailq.postfix
>manpage_directory = /usr/share/man
>mydestination = $myhostname, localhost.$mydomain
>mynetworks = 172.18.3.0/24, 127.0.0.0/8
>newaliases_path = /usr/bin/newaliases.postfix
>queue_directory = /var/spool/postfix
>readme_directory = /usr/share/doc/postfix-2.3.3/README_FILES
>recipient_delimiter = +
>sample_directory = /usr/share/doc/postfix-2.3.3/samples
>sendmail_path = /usr/sbin/sendmail.postfix
>setgid_group = postdrop
>unknown_local_recipient_reject_code = 550
>virtual_alias_domains = virtual.org
>virtual_alias_maps = hash:/etc/mailman/virtual-mailman, hash:/etc/postfix/virtual
>
>#.../etc/postfix/virtual
>@virtual.org            @lists.true.org

You probably don't want this.


>with configuration above, i succes create new list abc at virtual.org, and i have subscribe member "member at true.org" in list abc at virtual.org, but if i send mail to list abc at virtual.org, i have got messege
>
>
>The mail system <abc at virtual.org>: mail for virtual.org loops back to myself 
>Reporting-MTA: dns; mail.true.org 
>X-Postfix-Queue-ID: 6F2662840C 
>X-Postfix-Sender: rfc822; member at true.org 
>Arrival-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 22:38:21 +0700 (WIT) 
>Final-Recipient: rfc822; abc at virtual.org
>Original-Recipient: rfc822;abc at virtual.org
>Action: failed 
>Status: 5.4.6 
>Diagnostic-Code: X-Postfix; mail for virtual.org loops back to myself 


Did Mailman create a set of entries

abc at virtual.org         abc
abc-admin at virtual.org   abc-admin
...

in data/virtual-mailman and aliases

abc: "|/path/to/mail/mailman post abc"
abc-admin: "|/path/to/mail/mailman admin abc"
...

in data/aliases

If those virtual map and alias entries are there, it should work.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mdale at geniusmoon.com.au  Tue Jul  1 07:55:51 2008
From: mdale at geniusmoon.com.au (Mark Dale)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 15:55:51 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bug reported when creating a new list from webpage
Message-ID: <4869C6E7.6030602@geniusmoon.com.au>

Hi All

Can anyone shed any light on this error I get when creating a new list
from the webpage. (I can create lists okay from the "newlist" command)

*** Displayed on the webpage ***
---------------------------------

Bug in Mailman version 2.1.9

We're sorry, we hit a bug!

Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of
traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited,
but the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs.
================================================================================

*** extract from the error log ***
------------------------------

Jul 01 05:27:46 2008 (14663) command failed: /usr/sbin/postmap
/var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman (status: 1, Operation not permitted)
Jul 01 05:27:46 2008 admin(14663):
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
admin(14663): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.9 -----]
admin(14663): [----- Traceback ------]
admin(14663): Traceback (most recent call last):
admin(14663):   File "/var/lib/mailman/scripts/driver", line 110, in
run_main
admin(14663):     main()
admin(14663):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 56,
in main
admin(14663):     process_request(doc, cgidata)
admin(14663):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 238,
in process_request
admin(14663):     sys.modules[modname].create(mlist, cgi=1)
admin(14663):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line
232, in create
admin(14663):     _update_maps()
admin(14663):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 60,
in _update_maps
admin(14663):     raise RuntimeError, msg % (vcmd, status, errstr)
admin(14663): RuntimeError: command failed: /usr/sbin/postmap
/var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman (status: 1, Operation not permitted)
admin(14663): [----- Python Information -----]
admin(14663): sys.version     =   2.5.2 (r252:60911, Apr 21 2008, 11:17:30)
[GCC 4.2.3 (Ubuntu 4.2.3-2ubuntu7)]

From laidlaws at hotkey.net.au  Tue Jul  1 08:39:34 2008
From: laidlaws at hotkey.net.au (Doug Laidlaw)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 16:39:34 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscribing
Message-ID: <200807011639.34789.laidlaws@hotkey.net.au>

I am unsubscribing.  Thanks very much for helping with my inquiry, Mark.  The 
other queries don't apply to me, and I can offer no help with them.

On my inquiry, one would think that an OS that wants to rule the world would 
be compatible with the most popular mailing list software.  Oh, well...

Doug.

From dony1985.0729 at yahoo.co.id  Tue Jul  1 10:07:51 2008
From: dony1985.0729 at yahoo.co.id (Dony Tata)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 16:07:51 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bls:  mailman true virtual hosting
Message-ID: <683898.9737.qm@web76111.mail.sg1.yahoo.com>






>Did Mailman create a set of entries

>abc at virtual.org         abc
>abc-admin at virtual.org   abc-admin
...
Mailman doesn't create that set but Mailman create this set
abc-virtual.org at virtual.org            abc-virtual.org
abc-virtual.org-admin at virtual.org    abc-virtual.org-admin

in data/virtual-mailman and aliases

abc-virtual.org: "|/path/to/mail/mailman post abc-virtual.org"
abc-virtual.org-admin: "|/path/to/mail/mailman admin abc-virtual.org"
...

>in data/aliases

>If those virtual map and alias entries are there, it should work.

mailman does not working....


      ___________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Toolbar kini dilengkapi dengan Search Assist. Download sekarang juga.
http://id.toolbar.yahoo.com/

From srb at umich.edu  Tue Jul  1 12:07:25 2008
From: srb at umich.edu (Steve Burling)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 06:07:25 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscribing
In-Reply-To: <200807011639.34789.laidlaws@hotkey.net.au>
References: <200807011639.34789.laidlaws@hotkey.net.au>
Message-ID: <388B497839C6B5A34AF66D85@srb.local>

--On July 1, 2008 4:39:34 PM +1000 Doug Laidlaw <laidlaws at hotkey.net.au> 
wrote:

> On my inquiry, one would think that an OS that wants to rule the world
> would  be compatible with the most popular mailing list software.  Oh,
> well...

To which I reply:

There is the source of your confusion.  You are under the impression that 
Microsoft cares about how their software interacts with non-Microsoft 
products.  They don't.  You should just be using all Microsoft products, 
then everything would be good and right.

Drink the Kool-Aid, Doug.

-- 
Steve Burling                                    <mailto:srb at umich.edu>
University of Michigan, ICPSR                    Voice: +1 734 615.3779
330 Packard Street                               FAX:   +1 734 647.8700
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-2910

From Jan at Bytesmiths.com  Tue Jul  1 15:48:05 2008
From: Jan at Bytesmiths.com (Jan Steinman)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 06:48:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscribing
In-Reply-To: <mailman.20.1214906406.18003.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.20.1214906406.18003.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <FBF8D811-55D9-4EE4-AEE2-6F9A0B253150@Bytesmiths.com>

> From: Doug Laidlaw <laidlaws at hotkey.net.au>
>
> ... one would think that an OS that wants to rule the world would
> be compatible with the most popular mailing list software.  Oh,  
> well...

Wow, you mean Microsoft is going to be compatible with Mailman?  
Cool! :-)

:::: Jesus Saves!...     Passes to Gretsky; Gretsky SCORES! ::::
:::: Jan Steinman <http://www.VeggieVanGogh.com> ::::



From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul  1 15:59:40 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 06:59:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bug reported when creating a new list from
	webpage
In-Reply-To: <4869C6E7.6030602@geniusmoon.com.au>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070106594001870bfadc63@msapiro>

Mark Dale wrote:
>
>Can anyone shed any light on this error I get when creating a new list
>from the webpage. (I can create lists okay from the "newlist" command)
>
>*** extract from the error log ***
>------------------------------
>
>Jul 01 05:27:46 2008 (14663) command failed: /usr/sbin/postmap
>/var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman (status: 1, Operation not permitted)
>Jul 01 05:27:46 2008 admin(14663):
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>admin(14663): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.9 -----]
>admin(14663): [----- Traceback ------]
>admin(14663): Traceback (most recent call last):
>admin(14663):   File "/var/lib/mailman/scripts/driver", line 110, in
>run_main
>admin(14663):     main()
>admin(14663):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 56,
>in main
>admin(14663):     process_request(doc, cgidata)
>admin(14663):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 238,
>in process_request
>admin(14663):     sys.modules[modname].create(mlist, cgi=1)
>admin(14663):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line
>232, in create
>admin(14663):     _update_maps()
>admin(14663):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 60,
>in _update_maps
>admin(14663):     raise RuntimeError, msg % (vcmd, status, errstr)
>admin(14663): RuntimeError: command failed: /usr/sbin/postmap
>/var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman (status: 1, Operation not permitted)


The issue is with ownership and/or permissions of virtual-mailman*

When running create from the web, the process is running as the web
server user and the mailman group because the create wrapper is group
mailman and SETGID.

When this user:group runs postmap, it fails as above. Permissions and
ownership of the aliases* and virtual-mailman* files should be

-rw-rw---- 1 root    mailman    6308 Jun 21 12:51 aliases
-rw-rw---- 1 mailman mailman   12288 Jun 21 12:51 aliases.db
-rw-rw---- 1 apache  mailman    8051 Jun 21 12:51 virtual-mailman
-rw-rw---- 1 mailman mailman   12288 Jun 21 12:51 virtual-mailman.db

Note that all files are group writable and group mailman and the .db
files (particularly aliases.db) are also owned by mailman. This latter
controls the user (and that user's default group) that Postfix uses to
run the pipes.

The owner of aliases and virtual-mailman is not important. It may be
root, apache or something else depending on who last created a list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From fcocquyt at stanford.edu  Tue Jul  1 18:19:10 2008
From: fcocquyt at stanford.edu (Fletcher Cocquyt)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 09:19:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
	leak?)
In-Reply-To: <C485BE5A.1F2FF%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <C48FA70E.1FFDC%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>

An update - I've upgraded to the latest stable python (2.5.2) and its made
no difference to the process growth:
Config: 
Solaris 10 x86
Python 2.5.2
Mailman 2.1.9 (8 Incoming queue runners - the leak rate increases with this)
SpamAssassin 3.2.5

At this point I am looking for ways to isolate the suspected memory leak - I
am looking at using dtrace: http://blogs.sun.com/sanjeevb/date/200506

Any other tips appreciated!

Initial (immediately after a /etc/init.d/mailman restart):
last pid: 10330;  load averages:  0.45,  0.19,  0.15
09:13:33
93 processes:  92 sleeping, 1 on cpu
CPU states: 98.6% idle,  0.4% user,  1.0% kernel,  0.0% iowait,  0.0% swap
Memory: 1640M real, 1160M free, 444M swap in use, 2779M swap free

   PID USERNAME LWP PRI NICE  SIZE   RES STATE    TIME    CPU COMMAND
 10314 mailman    1  59    0 9612K 7132K sleep    0:00  0.35% python
 10303 mailman    1  59    0 9604K 7080K sleep    0:00  0.15% python
 10305 mailman    1  59    0 9596K 7056K sleep    0:00  0.14% python
 10304 mailman    1  59    0 9572K 7036K sleep    0:00  0.14% python
 10311 mailman    1  59    0 9572K 7016K sleep    0:00  0.13% python
 10310 mailman    1  59    0 9572K 7016K sleep    0:00  0.13% python
 10306 mailman    1  59    0 9556K 7020K sleep    0:00  0.14% python
 10302 mailman    1  59    0 9548K 6940K sleep    0:00  0.13% python
 10319 mailman    1  59    0 9516K 6884K sleep    0:00  0.15% python
 10312 mailman    1  59    0 9508K 6860K sleep    0:00  0.12% python
 10321 mailman    1  59    0 9500K 6852K sleep    0:00  0.14% python
 10309 mailman    1  59    0 9500K 6852K sleep    0:00  0.13% python
 10307 mailman    1  59    0 9500K 6852K sleep    0:00  0.13% python
 10308 mailman    1  59    0 9500K 6852K sleep    0:00  0.12% python
 10313 mailman    1  59    0 9500K 6852K sleep    0:00  0.12% python

After 8 hours:
last pid:  9878;  load averages:  0.14,  0.12,  0.13
09:12:18
97 processes:  96 sleeping, 1 on cpu
CPU states: 97.2% idle,  1.2% user,  1.6% kernel,  0.0% iowait,  0.0% swap
Memory: 1640M real, 179M free, 2121M swap in use, 1100M swap free

   PID USERNAME LWP PRI NICE  SIZE   RES STATE    TIME    CPU COMMAND
 10123 mailman    1  59    0  314M  311M sleep    1:57  0.02% python
 10131 mailman    1  59    0  310M  307M sleep    1:35  0.01% python
 10124 mailman    1  59    0  309M   78M sleep    0:45  0.10% python
 10134 mailman    1  59    0  307M   81M sleep    1:27  0.01% python
 10125 mailman    1  59    0  307M   79M sleep    0:42  0.01% python
 10133 mailman    1  59    0   44M   41M sleep    0:14  0.01% python
 10122 mailman    1  59    0   34M   30M sleep    0:43  0.39% python
 10127 mailman    1  59    0   31M   27M sleep    0:40  0.26% python
 10130 mailman    1  59    0   30M   26M sleep    0:15  0.03% python
 10129 mailman    1  59    0   28M   24M sleep    0:19  0.10% python
 10126 mailman    1  59    0   28M   25M sleep    1:07  0.59% python
 10132 mailman    1  59    0   27M   24M sleep    1:00  0.46% python
 10128 mailman    1  59    0   27M   24M sleep    0:16  0.01% python
 10151 mailman    1  59    0 9516K 3852K sleep    0:05  0.01% python
 10150 mailman    1  59    0 9500K 3764K sleep    0:00  0.00% python


On 6/23/08 8:55 PM, "Fletcher Cocquyt" <fcocquyt at stanford.edu> wrote:

> Mike, many thanks for your (as always) very helpful response - I added the 1
> liner to mm_cfg.py to increase the threads to 16.
> Now I am observing (via memory trend graphs) an acceleration of what looks
> like a memory leak - maybe from python - currently at 2.4
> 
> I am compiling the latest 2.5.2 to see if that helps - for now the workaround
> is to restart mailman occasionally.
> 
> (and yes the spamassassin checks are the source of the 4-10 second delay - now
> those happen in parallel x16 - so no spikes in the backlog...)
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> 
> On 6/20/08 9:01 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> 
>> Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi, I am observing periods of qfiles/in backlogs in the 400-600 message
>>> count range that take 1-2hours to clear with the standard Mailman 2.1.9 +
>>> Spamassassin (the vette log shows these messages process in an avg of ~10
>>> seconds each)
>> 
>> 
>> Is Spamassassin invoked from Mailman or from the MTA before Mailman? If
>> this plain Mailman, 10 seconds is a hugely long time to process a
>> single post through IncomingRunner.
>> 
>> If you have some Spamassassin interface like
>> 
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=640518&group_id=103>>
&
>> atid=300103>
>> that calls spamd from a Mailman handler, you might consider moving
>> Spamassassin ahead of Mailman and using something like
>> 
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=840426&group_id=103>>
&
>> atid=300103>
>> or just header_filter_rules instead.
>> 
>> 
>>> Is there an easy way to parallelize what looks like a single serialized
>>> Mailman queue?
>>> I see some posts re: multi-slice ? but nothing definitive
>> 
>> 
>> See the section of Defaults.py headed with
>> 
>> #####
>> # Qrunner defaults
>> #####
>> 
>> In order to run multiple, parallel IncomingRunner processes, you can
>> either copy the entire QRUNNERS definition from Defaults.py to
>> mm_cfg.py
>> and change
>> 
>>     ('IncomingRunner', 1), # posts from the outside world
>> 
>> to
>> 
>>     ('IncomingRunner', 4), # posts from the outside world
>> 
>> 
>> which says run 4 IncomingRunner processes, or you can just add
>> something like
>> 
>> QRUNNERS[QRUNNERS.index(('IncomingRunner',1))] = ('IncomingRunner',4)
>> 
>> to mm_cfg.py. You can use any power of two for the number.
>> 
>> 
>>> I would also like the option of working this into an overall loadbalancing
>>> scheme where I have multiple smtp nodes behind an F5 loadbalancer and the
>>> nodes share an NFS backend...
>> 
>> 
>> The following search will return some information.
>> 
>> 
<http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Amail.python.org++inurl%3Amailman++%22l>>
o
>> ad+balancing%22>

-- 
Fletcher Cocquyt
Senior Systems Administrator
Information Resources and Technology (IRT)
Stanford University School of Medicine

Email: fcocquyt at stanford.edu
Phone: (650) 724-7485



From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul  1 18:24:36 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:24:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bls:  mailman true virtual hosting
In-Reply-To: <683898.9737.qm@web76111.mail.sg1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC187020080701092436095300ecf4dd@msapiro>

Dony Tata wrote:
>
>>Did Mailman create a set of entries
>
>>abc at virtual.org         abc
>>abc-admin at virtual.org   abc-admin
>...
>Mailman doesn't create that set but Mailman create this set
>abc-virtual.org at virtual.org            abc-virtual.org
>abc-virtual.org-admin at virtual.org    abc-virtual.org-admin
>
>in data/virtual-mailman and aliases
>
>abc-virtual.org: "|/path/to/mail/mailman post abc-virtual.org"
>abc-virtual.org-admin: "|/path/to/mail/mailman admin abc-virtual.org"
>...
>
>>in data/aliases
>


You did not create the list properly. You created a list named
abc-virtual.org. You did not create the list abc.

If you have installed some patches that are supposed to provide "true
virtual hosting" you need to talk to whoever developed those patches.

If not, and this is straight GNU Mailman, you need to do the following
in the mailman directory:

bin/rmlist -a abc-virtual.org
bin/newlist -e virtual.org -u www.virtual.org abc

where www.virtual.org may be something else such as just virtual.org.
It is the host name for the virtual.org web pages.

In any case, with data/aliases entries like the above, the
virtual-mailman entries should be like:

abc at virtual.org            abc-virtual.org
abc-admin at virtual.org    abc-virtual.org-admin

Otherwise you would have to actually mail to
abc-virtual.org at virtual.org, etc.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com  Tue Jul  1 19:09:15 2008
From: brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com (Vidiot)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:09:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <C48FA70E.1FFDC%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <200807011709.m61H9Fdr004084@mrvideo.vidiot.com>

>Solaris 10 x86
>Python 2.5.2
>Mailman 2.1.9 (8 Incoming queue runners - the leak rate increases with this)
>SpamAssassin 3.2.5
>
>At this point I am looking for ways to isolate the suspected memory leak - I
>am looking at using dtrace: http://blogs.sun.com/sanjeevb/date/200506
>
>Any other tips appreciated!

I'd start by installing 2.1.11, which was just released yesterday.

MB
-- 
e-mail: vidiot at vidiot.com                                /~\ The ASCII
[I've been to Earth.  I know where it is.         ]      \ / Ribbon Campaign
[And I'm gonna take us there.    Starbuck  3/25/07]       X  Against
Visit - URL: http://vidiot.com/                          / \ HTML Email

From cyndi at tikvah.com  Tue Jul  1 20:03:49 2008
From: cyndi at tikvah.com (Cyndi Norwitz)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:03:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <PC187020080624115102071872307290@msapiro> (message from Mark
	Sapiro on Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:51:02 -0700)
References: <PC187020080624115102071872307290@msapiro>
Message-ID: <200807011803.m61I3nra030359@b.mail.sonic.net>

Hi all, I am finally doing a followup on this.  Mark asked me to vet his
proposed solution to my ISP and see what they said.  They actually took it
quite seriously and discussed it.  I just got a phone call from the head
guy in that department who wanted to speak to me directly about it.  (Mark,
I'm sending you some private email with his contact info.)

Basically, they are very concerned about spammers using their system.
Their first response to my request was to wonder why I thought a spammer
wouldn't be patient enough to add addresses to their lists slowly.

After talking more with me, what he said was that he would be interested in
the feature and would use it *IF* it could be turned on per list or per
user, as opposed to a global on or off.  He said he'd want to "have a
conversation" with each listowner to make sure they really understood how
to keep documentation proving how someone signed up for the list (email
trail, paper from a signup sheet at an event, etc).  He said he'd gladly
turn on the feature for my lists after hearing that I knew how to do this.

I pointed out to him that if it was per list, then I'd be bothering them
every time I set up a new list (I have a lot of little ones).  He agrees
that per user would be much better, if it were possible.  I said I'd heard
hints (am I right?) that MM might be moving in that direction, allowing
listowners to administer (or at least see) all their lists together.  It
would make life a lot easier if the ISP could simply say, "okay, any list
that Cyndi runs can have this new feature."

So that's the feedback.  Thanks for all your time with this.

Cyndi


   Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:51:02 -0700
   From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>

   Cyndi Norwitz wrote:

   >Please let me know if I should post this elsewhere too.
   >
   >The Mass Subscribe feature has two settings: on and off.


   No it doesn't.


   >My
   >ISP has chosen to turn off Mass Subscribe.  Only the invite feature is
   >left.


   This is not a setting. It is a code modification done somewhere
   downstream of the Mailman project.


   >My request is for an intermediate step that the provider can set.
   >Something like subscribing one name at a time (so it's too much of a pain
   >for a spammer to put in a thousand names) or up to 10 a day, or something
   >that will make a large provider feel more comfortable but not completely
   >remove the feature from the users.


   Turning off mass subscribe and leaving only mass invite is a
   modification not done by us. This request might better be directed to
   whoever made this modification.

   We fully sympathize with the difficulty and frustration of dealing with
   users who can't manage to successfully accept an invitation, and the
   problem of explaining to the VIP that the software doesn't allow this.

   I can see that actual site settings something like

   MAXIMUM_LIST_OWNER_SUBSCRIBES = 10
   LIST_OWNER_SUBSCRIBE_WINDOW = days(7)

   to allow at most 10 subscribes in any 7 day period, might be an
   alternative that ISPs would use, but OTOH, I think that an ISP that
   choses to disable mass subscribe has likely done this in response to
   large ISP/email services that demand that lists be fully confirmed
   opt-in in order to be whitelisted, so they may not be willing to allow
   even that.

   Before I invest any effort in implementing such an option, I'd be
   interested in an opinion from your ISP as to whether they would use it.



From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul  1 20:04:44 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 11:04:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.11 final has been released.
In-Reply-To: <486930DE.6050202@msapiro.net>
References: <486930DE.6050202@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <486A71BC.3060105@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

The release notes and NEWS file for Mailman 2.1.11 contains the
following innocuous looking item.

~    - Improved bounce loop detection and handling in BounceRunner.py.

This actually first appeared in 2.1.11rc2. It turns out this had an
unintended consequence, but I actually think it is a good thing.

The change involved bounces returned to the site list (mailman list)
- -bounces address. There was always code in BounceRunner.py to look at
bounces returned to the site list -bounces address to try to detect if
the bounce was a bounce of a notice to a list owner, and if so, to send
the bounce to the site list instead of processing it. This code never
worked right.

The main problem, is I don't in general know how to tell to what address
the bounced message was originally sent. If I did, there would never be
an unrecognized bounce. So part of the change in 2.1.11 rc2 and final is
to just forward to the site list owner any message that arrives to the
site list -bounces address so the owner can handle the bounce.

The unintended consequence is that bounces of password reminders will
also now go to the site list owner whereas before they were probably
just ignored or processed as unrecognized bounces to the site list.

Most of these bounces will probably be for dead addresses where the user
disabled delivery and forgot about the list and the address died and the
password reminders have been bouncing for a long time.

In the longer term, plain text passwords and reminders are going away,
but in the short term, the site list owner may get a lot of bounced
password reminders (possibly a whole lot in a large site) on the first
of the month following installation of this release.

I think the best way to deal with these is to remove the dead addresses
from the lists. Once this is done, the number of bounces on an ongoing
basis should be small.

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFIanG8VVuXXpU7hpMRAg9UAKDa8+K8krlwftCWex/9HuGPV/yq8ACgkX0H
/lXKKlzIU/aP2xOhE9K3H5k=
=lOmt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From vancleef at lostwells.net  Tue Jul  1 20:40:26 2008
From: vancleef at lostwells.net (Hank van Cleef)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:40:26 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.11 final has been released.
In-Reply-To: <486A71BC.3060105@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <200807011840.m61IeRKV022201@julie.lostwells.net>

The esteemed Mark Sapiro has said:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> The release notes and NEWS file for Mailman 2.1.11 contains the
> following innocuous looking item.
> 
> ~    - Improved bounce loop detection and handling in BounceRunner.py.
> 
> This actually first appeared in 2.1.11rc2. It turns out this had an
> unintended consequence, but I actually think it is a good thing.
> 
> The unintended consequence is that bounces of password reminders will
> also now go to the site list owner whereas before they were probably
> just ignored or processed as unrecognized bounces to the site list.
> 
> Most of these bounces will probably be for dead addresses where the user
> disabled delivery and forgot about the list and the address died and the
> password reminders have been bouncing for a long time.
> 
> In the longer term, plain text passwords and reminders are going away,
> but in the short term, the site list owner may get a lot of bounced
> password reminders (possibly a whole lot in a large site) on the first
> of the month following installation of this release.
> 
> I think the best way to deal with these is to remove the dead addresses
> from the lists. Once this is done, the number of bounces on an ongoing
> basis should be small.
> 
Mark, I've snipped your message, but it brings up something that is a
problem for us, and maybe "hijacking" your note with a "feature
request."

We have a pattern of having list subscribers set themselves nomail,
and sometime later, close out the ISP account that was used to receive
mail.  We would like to be able to cull out these "moved/left no
address" subscribers.  

Evidently, 2.1.11 will allow me to more-or-less identify those
accounts by telling me which accounts bounced the monthly reminder
e-mail.  It is not too great a task to look at perhaps ten accounts
per month and correlate "nomail by user" with the bounce message.

Over time, dead accounts add up.  Last time I did something about
this, I set all the "nomail" accounts to receive mail, and the bounce
processor killed off close to half the accounts.  This was after eight
years of running.  The problem with that was that I had a hundred or
so users who were still active but who did not want to receive list
mail.  (Many were following the list through reading the archives).

I'm also concerned about this proposed scheme to discontinue montnly
mailings.  It most definitely needs some mechanism whereby a user can
reset or re-obtain their password without moderator intervention.  Our
user base is just plain not password-savvy, and I'm concerned about
the increase in moderator workload if the recovery method is similar
to password resetting by root (the Unix method).

Hank


From dony1985.0729 at yahoo.co.id  Tue Jul  1 20:41:43 2008
From: dony1985.0729 at yahoo.co.id (Dony Tata)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 02:41:43 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bug reported when creating a new list from
	webpage
Message-ID: <460517.64880.qm@web76102.mail.sg1.yahoo.com>





----- Pesan Asli ----
Dari: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Kepada: mdale at geniusmoon.com.au; Mailman-Users at python.org
Terkirim: Selasa, 1 Juli, 2008 20:59:40
Topik: Re: [Mailman-Users] Bug reported when creating a new list from webpage

Mark Dale wrote:
>
>Can anyone shed any light on this error I get when creating a new list
>from the webpage. (I can create lists okay from the "newlist" command)
>
>*** extract from the error log ***
>------------------------------
>
>Jul 01 05:27:46 2008 (14663) command failed: /usr/sbin/postmap
>/var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman (status: 1, Operation not permitted)
>Jul 01 05:27:46 2008 admin(14663):
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>admin(14663): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.9 -----]
>admin(14663): [----- Traceback ------]
>admin(14663): Traceback (most recent call last):
>admin(14663):   File "/var/lib/mailman/scripts/driver", line 110, in
>run_main
>admin(14663):     main()
>admin(14663):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 56,
>in main
>admin(14663):     process_request(doc, cgidata)
>admin(14663):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 238,
>in process_request
>admin(14663):     sys.modules[modname]..create(mlist, cgi=1)
>admin(14663):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line
>232, in create
>admin(14663):     _update_maps()
>admin(14663):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 60,
>in _update_maps
>admin(14663):     raise RuntimeError, msg % (vcmd, status, errstr)
>admin(14663): RuntimeError: command failed: /usr/sbin/postmap
>/var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman (status: 1, Operation not permitted)


try to disable selinux...



      ___________________________________________________________________________
Dapatkan situs lowongan kerja - Yahoo! Indonesia Search.
http://id.search.yahoo.com/search?p=lowongan+kerja&cs=bz&fr=fp-top

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Tue Jul  1 20:42:42 2008
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 20:42:42 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.11 final has been released.
In-Reply-To: <486930DE.6050202@msapiro.net>
References: <486930DE.6050202@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20080701184242.GT19916@charite.de>

* Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
> I am happy to announce the final release of the Mailman 2.1.11.

I get lots of these:
initialization differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2351: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2351: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2351: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2351: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2353: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2353: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2353: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2353: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2376: warning: pointer targets in initialization
differ in signedness
src/_koco_uhc.h:2376: warning: pointer targets in initialization

Should I worry?

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt (i.A. des IT-Zentrums)         Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de
Charite - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin            Tel.  +49 (0)30-450 570-155
Gemeinsame Einrichtung von FU- und HU-Berlin    Fax.  +49 (0)30-450 570-962
IT-Zentrum Standort CBF                 send no mail to snickebo at charite.de

From barry at list.org  Tue Jul  1 20:57:38 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 14:57:38 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.11 final has been released.
In-Reply-To: <200807011840.m61IeRKV022201@julie.lostwells.net>
References: <200807011840.m61IeRKV022201@julie.lostwells.net>
Message-ID: <F32CB58B-B7E7-4193-8516-58D0E57E4610@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jul 1, 2008, at 2:40 PM, Hank van Cleef wrote:

> I'm also concerned about this proposed scheme to discontinue montnly
> mailings.  It most definitely needs some mechanism whereby a user can
> reset or re-obtain their password without moderator intervention.  Our
> user base is just plain not password-savvy, and I'm concerned about
> the increase in moderator workload if the recovery method is similar
> to password resetting by root (the Unix method).

Don't worry, going forward we'll have a fairly typical password reset  
feature instead of the monthly reminder.  The other advantage of this  
is that we won't have to keep user passwords in our database  
unencrypted.

- -Barry

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From barry at list.org  Tue Jul  1 20:58:18 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 14:58:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.11 final has been released.
In-Reply-To: <20080701184242.GT19916@charite.de>
References: <486930DE.6050202@msapiro.net> <20080701184242.GT19916@charite.de>
Message-ID: <988390E6-3724-4C0D-A580-1C5CA5A7D684@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jul 1, 2008, at 2:42 PM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:

> * Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
>> I am happy to announce the final release of the Mailman 2.1.11.
>
> I get lots of these:
> initialization differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2351: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2351: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2351: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2351: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2353: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2353: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2353: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2353: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2376: warning: pointer targets in initialization
> differ in signedness
> src/_koco_uhc.h:2376: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>
> Should I worry?

Nope, you can ignore these.
- -Barry

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From b19141 at anl.gov  Tue Jul  1 21:30:04 2008
From: b19141 at anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Tue,  1 Jul 2008 14:30:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.11 final has been released.
In-Reply-To: Mail from 'Ralf Hildebrandt <Ralf.Hildebrandt@charite.de>'
	dated: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 20:42:42 +0200
Message-ID: <20080701193004.A37C217554@britaine.cis.anl.gov>

* Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
> I am happy to announce the final release of the Mailman 2.1.11.

Ralf Hildebrandt <Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de> replied:
>I get lots of these:
>initialization differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2351: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2351: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2351: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2351: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2352: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2353: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2353: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2353: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2353: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2354: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2355: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2356: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2357: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2358: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2359: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2360: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2376: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>differ in signedness
>src/_koco_uhc.h:2376: warning: pointer targets in initialization
>
>Should I worry?

When I build my 2.1.11 package for Ubuntu this morning I saw those
(and others), and I did some research:

-----
src/_koco_ksc5601.h:1493:  

     static unsigned char *ksc5601_encode_page0[945] = { /* 0x00a1 - 0x0451 */
     "\xa2\xae", 0, 0, "\xa2\xb4", 0, 0, "\xa1\xd7", "\xa1\xa7",

     There is one message for each non-zero value (e.g., "\xa2\xae").

-----
src/_koco_uhc.h:1613:

     static unsigned char *uhc_encode_page0[11170] = { /* 0xac02 - 0xd7a3 */
       "\x81\x41", "\x81\x42", 0, "\x81\x43", "\x81\x44", 0, 0, 0,

     There is one message for each non-zero value (e.g., "\xa2\xae").
-----
src/koco_stream.h:42: warning: pointer targets in assignment differ in signedness
src/koco_stream.h:43: warning: pointer targets in assignment differ in signedness
     srccur = s;           [unsigned char = char]
     srcend = s + slen;    [unsigned char = char + int]

     The same is true for lines 135 and 136.
-----
And there are similar errors in a handful of other routines.
-----

I have not yet installed my 2.1.11 package on my test machine, but
my records show that I had the identical messages when I built my
2.1.9 package, which I use in production.  I am not an expert in the
C language and what type conversions are done.  But I would not worry
about these messages.  I do not know if the C code can be changed to
eliminate these messages.

I captured the output of my package build process using the "script"
command.  That output file has

    17097 "warning: " lines
     4777 other lines
    -----
    21874 lines total
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994


From fcocquyt at stanford.edu  Tue Jul  1 21:56:55 2008
From: fcocquyt at stanford.edu (Fletcher Cocquyt)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 12:56:55 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <200807011709.m61H9Fdr004084@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
Message-ID: <C48FDA17.20086%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>

I'm having a hard time finding the release notes for 2.1.11 - can you please
provide a link?
(I want to see where it details any memory leak fixes since 2.1.9)

thanks


On 7/1/08 10:09 AM, "Vidiot" <brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com> wrote:

>> Solaris 10 x86
>> Python 2.5.2
>> Mailman 2.1.9 (8 Incoming queue runners - the leak rate increases with this)
>> SpamAssassin 3.2.5
>> 
>> At this point I am looking for ways to isolate the suspected memory leak - I
>> am looking at using dtrace: http://blogs.sun.com/sanjeevb/date/200506
>> 
>> Any other tips appreciated!
> 
> I'd start by installing 2.1.11, which was just released yesterday.
> 
> MB

-- 
Fletcher Cocquyt
Senior Systems Administrator
Information Resources and Technology (IRT)
Stanford University School of Medicine

Email: fcocquyt at stanford.edu
Phone: (650) 724-7485



From brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com  Tue Jul  1 22:05:33 2008
From: brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com (Vidiot)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 15:05:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <C48FDA17.20086%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <200807012005.m61K5XON004404@mrvideo.vidiot.com>

>I'm having a hard time finding the release notes for 2.1.11 - can you please
>provide a link?
>(I want to see where it details any memory leak fixes since 2.1.9)
>Fletcher Cocquyt
>Senior Systems Administrator
>Information Resources and Technology (IRT)
>Stanford University School of Medicine

There should be one on the list.org website.  If not, I do not know where
it is.  Should also be in the package.

MB
-- 
e-mail: vidiot at vidiot.com                                /~\ The ASCII
[I've been to Earth.  I know where it is.         ]      \ / Ribbon Campaign
[And I'm gonna take us there.    Starbuck  3/25/07]       X  Against
Visit - URL: http://vidiot.com/                          / \ HTML Email

From fcocquyt at stanford.edu  Tue Jul  1 22:28:27 2008
From: fcocquyt at stanford.edu (Fletcher Cocquyt)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 13:28:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <200807012005.m61K5XON004404@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
Message-ID: <C48FE17B.20097%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>

Not finding a "leak" ref - save a irrelevant (for this runner issue) admindb
one:

god at irt-smtp-02:mailman-2.1.11 1:26pm 58 # ls
ACKNOWLEDGMENTS   Mailman           README-I18N.en    STYLEGUIDE.txt
configure         doc               misc              templates
BUGS              Makefile.in       README.CONTRIB    TODO
configure.in      gnu-COPYING-GPL   mkinstalldirs     tests
FAQ               NEWS              README.NETSCAPE   UPGRADING
contrib           install-sh        scripts
INSTALL           README            README.USERAGENT  bin               cron
messages          src
god at irt-smtp-02:mailman-2.1.11 1:26pm 59 # egrep -i leak *
NEWS:      (Tokio Kikuchi's i18n patches), 862906 (unicode prefix leak in
admindb),


Thanks




On 7/1/08 1:05 PM, "Vidiot" <brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com> wrote:

>> I'm having a hard time finding the release notes for 2.1.11 - can you please
>> provide a link?
>> (I want to see where it details any memory leak fixes since 2.1.9)
>> Fletcher Cocquyt
>> Senior Systems Administrator
>> Information Resources and Technology (IRT)
>> Stanford University School of Medicine
> 
> There should be one on the list.org website.  If not, I do not know where
> it is.  Should also be in the package.
> 
> MB

-- 
Fletcher Cocquyt
Senior Systems Administrator
Information Resources and Technology (IRT)
Stanford University School of Medicine

Email: fcocquyt at stanford.edu
Phone: (650) 724-7485



From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul  1 23:56:13 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 14:56:13 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.11 final has been released.
In-Reply-To: <20080701193004.A37C217554@britaine.cis.anl.gov>
References: <20080701193004.A37C217554@britaine.cis.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <486AA7FD.9080002@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Barry Finkel wrote:
| * Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
|> I am happy to announce the final release of the Mailman 2.1.11.
|
| Ralf Hildebrandt <Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de> replied:
|> I get lots of these:
|> initialization differ in signedness
|> src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
|> differ in signedness
|> src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
|> differ in signedness
<snip>
|>
|> Should I worry?
|
| When I build my 2.1.11 package for Ubuntu this morning I saw those
| (and others), and I did some research:
|
| -----
| src/_koco_ksc5601.h:1493:
|
|      static unsigned char *ksc5601_encode_page0[945] = { /* 0x00a1 -
0x0451 */
|      "\xa2\xae", 0, 0, "\xa2\xb4", 0, 0, "\xa1\xd7", "\xa1\xa7",
|
|      There is one message for each non-zero value (e.g., "\xa2\xae").
|
| -----
| src/_koco_uhc.h:1613:
|
|      static unsigned char *uhc_encode_page0[11170] = { /* 0xac02 -
0xd7a3 */
|        "\x81\x41", "\x81\x42", 0, "\x81\x43", "\x81\x44", 0, 0, 0,
|
|      There is one message for each non-zero value (e.g., "\xa2\xae").
| -----
| src/koco_stream.h:42: warning: pointer targets in assignment differ in
signedness
| src/koco_stream.h:43: warning: pointer targets in assignment differ in
signedness
|      srccur = s;           [unsigned char = char]
|      srcend = s + slen;    [unsigned char = char + int]
|
|      The same is true for lines 135 and 136.
| -----
| And there are similar errors in a handful of other routines.
| -----
|
| I have not yet installed my 2.1.11 package on my test machine, but
| my records show that I had the identical messages when I built my
| 2.1.9 package, which I use in production.  I am not an expert in the
| C language and what type conversions are done.  But I would not worry
| about these messages.  I do not know if the C code can be changed to
| eliminate these messages.


Probably the code or some header declaration could be changed to avoid
these. I have in the past been able to produce them by giving the
'-pedantic' option to a gcc that didn't produce them by default.

The bottom line is that some versions of gcc will produce these
warnings, but they don't affect the operation of the installed codecs.

If these Japanese and Korean codecs were sticking around, we might look
into 'fixing' this, but Mailman 3.0 will require Python 2.5 minimum, and
~ These codecs have been built-in since Python 2.4 so Mailman's
installation of them will be going away.

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul  2 00:37:08 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 15:37:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <C48FE17B.20097%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <PC187020080701153708068708118277@msapiro>

Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:

>Not finding a "leak" ref - save a irrelevant (for this runner issue) admindb


Nothing has been done in Mailman to fix any memory leaks. As far as I
know, nothing has been done to create any either.

If there is a leak, it is most likely in the underlying Python and not
a Mailman issue per se.

I am curious. You say this problem was exacerbated when you went from
one IncomingRunner to eight (sliced) IncomingRunners. The
IncomingRunner instances themselves should be processing fewer
messages each, and I would expect them to leak less. The other runners
are doing the same as before so I would expect them to be the same
unless by solving your 'in' queue backlog, you're just handling a
whole lot more messages.

Also, in an 8 hour period, I would expect that RetryRunner and
CommandRunner and, unless you are doing a lot of mail -> news
gatewaying, NewsRunner to have done virtually nothing.

In this snapshot

   PID USERNAME LWP PRI NICE  SIZE   RES STATE    TIME    CPU COMMAND
 10123 mailman    1  59    0  314M  311M sleep    1:57  0.02% python
 10131 mailman    1  59    0  310M  307M sleep    1:35  0.01% python
 10124 mailman    1  59    0  309M   78M sleep    0:45  0.10% python
 10134 mailman    1  59    0  307M   81M sleep    1:27  0.01% python
 10125 mailman    1  59    0  307M   79M sleep    0:42  0.01% python
 10133 mailman    1  59    0   44M   41M sleep    0:14  0.01% python
 10122 mailman    1  59    0   34M   30M sleep    0:43  0.39% python
 10127 mailman    1  59    0   31M   27M sleep    0:40  0.26% python
 10130 mailman    1  59    0   30M   26M sleep    0:15  0.03% python
 10129 mailman    1  59    0   28M   24M sleep    0:19  0.10% python
 10126 mailman    1  59    0   28M   25M sleep    1:07  0.59% python
 10132 mailman    1  59    0   27M   24M sleep    1:00  0.46% python
 10128 mailman    1  59    0   27M   24M sleep    0:16  0.01% python
 10151 mailman    1  59    0 9516K 3852K sleep    0:05  0.01% python
 10150 mailman    1  59    0 9500K 3764K sleep    0:00  0.00% python

Which processes correspond to which runners. And why are the two
processes that have apparently done the least the ones that have grown
the most.

In fact, why are none of these 15 PIDs the same as the ones from 8
hours earlier, or was that snapshot actually from after the above were
restarted?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From fcocquyt at stanford.edu  Wed Jul  2 01:20:42 2008
From: fcocquyt at stanford.edu (Fletcher Cocquyt)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:20:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <PC187020080701153708068708118277@msapiro>
Message-ID: <C49009DA.2012F%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>




On 7/1/08 3:37 PM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:
> 
>> Not finding a "leak" ref - save a irrelevant (for this runner issue) admindb
> 
> 
> Nothing has been done in Mailman to fix any memory leaks. As far as I
> know, nothing has been done to create any either.

Ok, thanks for confirming that - I will not prioritize a mailman
2.1.9->2.1.11 upgrade
 
> If there is a leak, it is most likely in the underlying Python and not
> a Mailman issue per se.

Agreed - hence my first priority to upgrade from python 2.4.x to 2.5.2 (the
latest on python.org) - but upgrading did not help this
 
> I am curious. You say this problem was exacerbated when you went from
> one IncomingRunner to eight (sliced) IncomingRunners. The
> IncomingRunner instances themselves should be processing fewer
> messages each, and I would expect them to leak less. The other runners
> are doing the same as before so I would expect them to be the same
> unless by solving your 'in' queue backlog, you're just handling a
> whole lot more messages.
 
> Also, in an 8 hour period, I would expect that RetryRunner and
> CommandRunner and, unless you are doing a lot of mail -> news
> gatewaying, NewsRunner to have done virtually nothing.
> 
> In this snapshot
> 
>    PID USERNAME LWP PRI NICE  SIZE   RES STATE    TIME    CPU COMMAND
>  10123 mailman    1  59    0  314M  311M sleep    1:57  0.02% python
>  10131 mailman    1  59    0  310M  307M sleep    1:35  0.01% python
>  10124 mailman    1  59    0  309M   78M sleep    0:45  0.10% python
>  10134 mailman    1  59    0  307M   81M sleep    1:27  0.01% python
>  10125 mailman    1  59    0  307M   79M sleep    0:42  0.01% python
>  10133 mailman    1  59    0   44M   41M sleep    0:14  0.01% python
>  10122 mailman    1  59    0   34M   30M sleep    0:43  0.39% python
>  10127 mailman    1  59    0   31M   27M sleep    0:40  0.26% python
>  10130 mailman    1  59    0   30M   26M sleep    0:15  0.03% python
>  10129 mailman    1  59    0   28M   24M sleep    0:19  0.10% python
>  10126 mailman    1  59    0   28M   25M sleep    1:07  0.59% python
>  10132 mailman    1  59    0   27M   24M sleep    1:00  0.46% python
>  10128 mailman    1  59    0   27M   24M sleep    0:16  0.01% python
>  10151 mailman    1  59    0 9516K 3852K sleep    0:05  0.01% python
>  10150 mailman    1  59    0 9500K 3764K sleep    0:00  0.00% python
> 
> Which processes correspond to which runners. And why are the two
> processes that have apparently done the least the ones that have grown
> the most.
> 
> In fact, why are none of these 15 PIDs the same as the ones from 8
> hours earlier, or was that snapshot actually from after the above were
> restarted?
Yes, I snapshot'ed the current leaked state, then restarted and snapped
those new PIDs to show the size diff.

Here is the current leaked state since the the cron 13:27 restart only 3
hours ago:
last pid: 20867;  load averages:  0.53,  0.47,  0.24
16:04:15
91 processes:  90 sleeping, 1 on cpu
CPU states: 99.1% idle,  0.3% user,  0.6% kernel,  0.0% iowait,  0.0% swap
Memory: 1640M real, 77M free, 1509M swap in use, 1699M swap free

   PID USERNAME LWP PRI NICE  SIZE   RES STATE    TIME    CPU COMMAND
 24167 mailman    1  59    0  311M  309M sleep    0:28  0.02% python
 24158 mailman    1  59    0  308M  305M sleep    0:30  0.01% python
 24169 mailman    1  59    0  303M  301M sleep    0:28  0.01% python
 24165 mailman    1  59    0   29M   27M sleep    0:09  0.03% python
 24161 mailman    1  59    0   29M   27M sleep    0:12  0.07% python
 24164 mailman    1  59    0   28M   26M sleep    0:07  0.01% python
 24172 mailman    1  59    0   26M   24M sleep    0:04  0.01% python
 24160 mailman    1  59    0   26M   24M sleep    0:08  0.01% python
 24162 mailman    1  59    0   26M   23M sleep    0:10  0.01% python
 24166 mailman    1  59    0   26M   23M sleep    0:04  0.01% python
 24171 mailman    1  59    0   25M   23M sleep    0:04  0.02% python
 24163 mailman    1  59    0   24M   22M sleep    0:04  0.01% python
 24168 mailman    1  59    0   19M   17M sleep    0:03  0.02% python
 24170 mailman    1  59    0 9516K 6884K sleep    0:01  0.01% python
 24159 mailman    1  59    0 9500K 6852K sleep    0:00  0.00% python

And the mapping to the runners:
god at irt-smtp-02:mailman-2.1.11 4:16pm 66 # /usr/ucb/ps auxw | egrep mailman
| awk '{print $2 " " $11}'
24167 --runner=IncomingRunner:5:8
24165 --runner=BounceRunner:0:1
24158 --runner=IncomingRunner:7:8
24162 --runner=VirginRunner:0:1
24163 --runner=IncomingRunner:1:8
24166 --runner=IncomingRunner:0:8
24168 --runner=IncomingRunner:4:8
24169 --runner=IncomingRunner:2:8
24171 --runner=IncomingRunner:6:8
24172 --runner=IncomingRunner:3:8
24160 --runner=CommandRunner:0:1
24161 --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1
24164 --runner=ArchRunner:0:1
24170 /bin/python
24159 /bin/python

Thanks for the analysis,
Fletcher



From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul  2 03:14:57 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:14:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <C49009DA.2012F%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070118145702348b11eee3@msapiro>

Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:
>
>Here is the current leaked state since the the cron 13:27 restart only 3
>hours ago:
>last pid: 20867;  load averages:  0.53,  0.47,  0.24
>16:04:15
>91 processes:  90 sleeping, 1 on cpu
>CPU states: 99.1% idle,  0.3% user,  0.6% kernel,  0.0% iowait,  0.0% swap
>Memory: 1640M real, 77M free, 1509M swap in use, 1699M swap free
>
>   PID USERNAME LWP PRI NICE  SIZE   RES STATE    TIME    CPU COMMAND
> 24167 mailman    1  59    0  311M  309M sleep    0:28  0.02% python
> 24158 mailman    1  59    0  308M  305M sleep    0:30  0.01% python
> 24169 mailman    1  59    0  303M  301M sleep    0:28  0.01% python
> 24165 mailman    1  59    0   29M   27M sleep    0:09  0.03% python
> 24161 mailman    1  59    0   29M   27M sleep    0:12  0.07% python
> 24164 mailman    1  59    0   28M   26M sleep    0:07  0.01% python
> 24172 mailman    1  59    0   26M   24M sleep    0:04  0.01% python
> 24160 mailman    1  59    0   26M   24M sleep    0:08  0.01% python
> 24162 mailman    1  59    0   26M   23M sleep    0:10  0.01% python
> 24166 mailman    1  59    0   26M   23M sleep    0:04  0.01% python
> 24171 mailman    1  59    0   25M   23M sleep    0:04  0.02% python
> 24163 mailman    1  59    0   24M   22M sleep    0:04  0.01% python
> 24168 mailman    1  59    0   19M   17M sleep    0:03  0.02% python
> 24170 mailman    1  59    0 9516K 6884K sleep    0:01  0.01% python
> 24159 mailman    1  59    0 9500K 6852K sleep    0:00  0.00% python
>
>And the mapping to the runners:
>god at irt-smtp-02:mailman-2.1.11 4:16pm 66 # /usr/ucb/ps auxw | egrep mailman
>| awk '{print $2 " " $11}'
>24167 --runner=IncomingRunner:5:8
>24165 --runner=BounceRunner:0:1
>24158 --runner=IncomingRunner:7:8
>24162 --runner=VirginRunner:0:1
>24163 --runner=IncomingRunner:1:8
>24166 --runner=IncomingRunner:0:8
>24168 --runner=IncomingRunner:4:8
>24169 --runner=IncomingRunner:2:8
>24171 --runner=IncomingRunner:6:8
>24172 --runner=IncomingRunner:3:8
>24160 --runner=CommandRunner:0:1
>24161 --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1
>24164 --runner=ArchRunner:0:1
>24170 /bin/python
>24159 /bin/python


What are these last 2? Presumably they are the missing NewsRunner and
RetryRunner, but what is the extra stuff in the ps output causing $11
to be the python command and not the runner option? And again, why are
these two, which presumably have done nothing, seemingly the biggest.

Here's some additional thought.

Are you sure there is an actual leak? Do you know that if you just let
them run, they don't reach some stable size and remain there as
opposed to growing so large that they eventually throw a MemoryError
exception and get restarted by mailmanctl.

If you allowed them to do that once, the MemoryError traceback might
provide a clue.

Caveat! I know very little about Python's memory management. Some of
what follows may be wrong.

Here's what I think - Python allocates more memory (from the OS) as
needed to import additional modules and create new objects. Imports
don't go away, but objects that are destroyed or become unreachable
(eg a file object that is closed or a message object whose only
reference gets assigned to something else) become candidates for
garbage collection and ultimately the memory allocated to them is
collected and reused (assuming no leaks). I *think* however, that no
memory is ever actually freed back to the OS. Thus, Python processes
that run for a long time can grow, but don't shrink.

Now, IncomingRunner in particular can get very large if large messages
are arriving, even if those messages are ultimately not processed very
far. Incoming runner reads the entire message into memory and then
parses it into a message object which is even bigger than the message
string. So, if someone happens to send a 100MB attachment to a list,
IncomingRunner is going to need over 200MB before it ever looks at the
message itself. This memory will later become available for other use
within that IncomingRunner instance, but I don't think it is ever
freed back to the OS.

Also, I see very little memory change between the 3 hour old snapshot
above and the 8 hour old one from your prior post. If this is really a
memory leak, I'd expect the 8 hour old ones to be perhaps twice as big
as the 3 hour old ones.

Also, do you have any really big lists with big config.pck files. If
so, Runners will grow as they instantiate that (those) big list(s).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mdale at geniusmoon.com.au  Wed Jul  2 03:40:25 2008
From: mdale at geniusmoon.com.au (Mark Dale)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:40:25 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bug reported when creating a new list from
	webpage
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008070106594001870bfadc63@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008070106594001870bfadc63@msapiro>
Message-ID: <486ADC89.9060006@geniusmoon.com.au>


That's great Mark, many thanks.

Just recapping for anyone else's interest.
------------------------------------------------------------------

After installing Mailman, when first attemping to create a new list
using the webpage - it returned a "You don't have permission".

(Creating a new list from the terminal was working okay)

This was fixed by running: sudo mmsitepass -c myNewPassword
and restarting: sudo /etc/init.d/mailman restart

Then, when trying to create a new list from the webpage, it returned an
error "Bug in Mailman ..."

This was fixed by settig correct permissions and group/owner on the
files as Mark explained.


% /var/lib/mailman/data: ll
total 76
drwxrwsr-x 2 root     list  4096 Jul  1 06:19 .
drwxrwsr-x 9 root     list  4096 Jun 30 04:33 ..
-rw-rw---- 1 root     list  1865 Jul  1 06:19 aliases
-rw-rw-r-- 1 list     list 12288 Jul  1 06:19 aliases.db
-rw-rw---- 1 list     list  4719 Jul  1 06:06 bounce-events-14733.pck
-rw-r----- 1 root     list    41 Jul  1 05:26 creator.pw
-rw-rw-r-- 1 list     list  1620 Jun 30 05:01 heldmsg-testlist-1.pck
-rw-rw-r-- 1 root     list    10 Jun 30 04:33 last_mailman_version
-rw-r--r-- 1 root     list 14114 Mar  7 05:22 sitelist.cfg
-rw-rw---- 1 www-data list  1314 Jul  1 06:19 virtual-mailman
-rw-rw---- 1 list     list 12288 Jul  1 06:19 virtual-mailman.db
% /var/lib/mailman/data: sudo /etc/init.d/mailman restart

------------------------------------------------------------------





Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Mark Dale wrote:
>> Can anyone shed any light on this error I get when creating a new list
>>from the webpage. (I can create lists okay from the "newlist" command)
>> *** extract from the error log ***
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Jul 01 05:27:46 2008 (14663) command failed: /usr/sbin/postmap
>> /var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman (status: 1, Operation not permitted)
>> Jul 01 05:27:46 2008 admin(14663):
>> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>> admin(14663): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.9 -----]
>> admin(14663): [----- Traceback ------]
>> admin(14663): Traceback (most recent call last):
>> admin(14663):   File "/var/lib/mailman/scripts/driver", line 110, in
>> run_main
>> admin(14663):     main()
>> admin(14663):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 56,
>> in main
>> admin(14663):     process_request(doc, cgidata)
>> admin(14663):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 238,
>> in process_request
>> admin(14663):     sys.modules[modname].create(mlist, cgi=1)
>> admin(14663):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line
>> 232, in create
>> admin(14663):     _update_maps()
>> admin(14663):   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 60,
>> in _update_maps
>> admin(14663):     raise RuntimeError, msg % (vcmd, status, errstr)
>> admin(14663): RuntimeError: command failed: /usr/sbin/postmap
>> /var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman (status: 1, Operation not permitted)
> 
> 
> The issue is with ownership and/or permissions of virtual-mailman*
> 
> When running create from the web, the process is running as the web
> server user and the mailman group because the create wrapper is group
> mailman and SETGID.
> 
> When this user:group runs postmap, it fails as above. Permissions and
> ownership of the aliases* and virtual-mailman* files should be
> 
> -rw-rw---- 1 root    mailman    6308 Jun 21 12:51 aliases
> -rw-rw---- 1 mailman mailman   12288 Jun 21 12:51 aliases.db
> -rw-rw---- 1 apache  mailman    8051 Jun 21 12:51 virtual-mailman
> -rw-rw---- 1 mailman mailman   12288 Jun 21 12:51 virtual-mailman.db
> 
> Note that all files are group writable and group mailman and the .db
> files (particularly aliases.db) are also owned by mailman. This latter
> controls the user (and that user's default group) that Postfix uses to
> run the pipes.
> 
> The owner of aliases and virtual-mailman is not important. It may be
> root, apache or something else depending on who last created a list.
> 

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul  2 04:16:52 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 19:16:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008070118145702348b11eee3@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008070118145702348b11eee3@msapiro>
Message-ID: <486AE514.1020701@msapiro.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Which processes correspond to which runners. And why are the two
> processes that have apparently done the least the ones that have grown
> the most.

and

> What are these last 2? Presumably they are the missing NewsRunner and
> RetryRunner, but what is the extra stuff in the ps output causing $11
> to be the python command and not the runner option? And again, why are
> these two, which presumably have done nothing, seemingly the biggest.

Doh? I finally noticed these are in K and the others are in M so that 
question is answered at least - the two that haven't done anything 
actually haven't grown.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From fcocquyt at stanford.edu  Wed Jul  2 05:26:23 2008
From: fcocquyt at stanford.edu (Fletcher Cocquyt)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 20:26:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008070118145702348b11eee3@msapiro>
Message-ID: <C490436F.2017D%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>

Pmap shows its the heap

god at irt-smtp-02:in 8:08pm 64 # pmap 24167
24167:    /bin/python /opt/mailman-2.1.9/bin/qrunner
--runner=IncomingRunner:5:8
08038000      64K rwx--    [ stack ]
08050000     940K r-x--  /usr/local/stow/Python-2.5.2/bin/python
0814A000     172K rwx--  /usr/local/stow/Python-2.5.2/bin/python
08175000  312388K rwx--    [ heap ]
CF210000      64K rwx--    [ anon ]
<--many small libs -->
 total    318300K

Whether its a leak or not - we need to understand why the heap is growing
and put a limit on its growth to avoid exausting memory and swapping into
oblivion...

None of the lists seem too big:
god at irt-smtp-02:lists 8:24pm 73 # du -sk */*pck | sort -nr | head | awk
'{print $1}'
1392
1240
1152
1096
912
720
464
168
136
112

Researching python heap alloaction....

thanks




On 7/1/08 6:14 PM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:
>> 
>> Here is the current leaked state since the the cron 13:27 restart only 3
>> hours ago:
>> last pid: 20867;  load averages:  0.53,  0.47,  0.24
>> 16:04:15
>> 91 processes:  90 sleeping, 1 on cpu
>> CPU states: 99.1% idle,  0.3% user,  0.6% kernel,  0.0% iowait,  0.0% swap
>> Memory: 1640M real, 77M free, 1509M swap in use, 1699M swap free
>> 
>>   PID USERNAME LWP PRI NICE  SIZE   RES STATE    TIME    CPU COMMAND
>> 24167 mailman    1  59    0  311M  309M sleep    0:28  0.02% python
>> 24158 mailman    1  59    0  308M  305M sleep    0:30  0.01% python
>> 24169 mailman    1  59    0  303M  301M sleep    0:28  0.01% python
>> 24165 mailman    1  59    0   29M   27M sleep    0:09  0.03% python
>> 24161 mailman    1  59    0   29M   27M sleep    0:12  0.07% python
>> 24164 mailman    1  59    0   28M   26M sleep    0:07  0.01% python
>> 24172 mailman    1  59    0   26M   24M sleep    0:04  0.01% python
>> 24160 mailman    1  59    0   26M   24M sleep    0:08  0.01% python
>> 24162 mailman    1  59    0   26M   23M sleep    0:10  0.01% python
>> 24166 mailman    1  59    0   26M   23M sleep    0:04  0.01% python
>> 24171 mailman    1  59    0   25M   23M sleep    0:04  0.02% python
>> 24163 mailman    1  59    0   24M   22M sleep    0:04  0.01% python
>> 24168 mailman    1  59    0   19M   17M sleep    0:03  0.02% python
>> 24170 mailman    1  59    0 9516K 6884K sleep    0:01  0.01% python
>> 24159 mailman    1  59    0 9500K 6852K sleep    0:00  0.00% python
>> 
>> And the mapping to the runners:
>> god at irt-smtp-02:mailman-2.1.11 4:16pm 66 # /usr/ucb/ps auxw | egrep mailman
>> | awk '{print $2 " " $11}'
>> 24167 --runner=IncomingRunner:5:8
>> 24165 --runner=BounceRunner:0:1
>> 24158 --runner=IncomingRunner:7:8
>> 24162 --runner=VirginRunner:0:1
>> 24163 --runner=IncomingRunner:1:8
>> 24166 --runner=IncomingRunner:0:8
>> 24168 --runner=IncomingRunner:4:8
>> 24169 --runner=IncomingRunner:2:8
>> 24171 --runner=IncomingRunner:6:8
>> 24172 --runner=IncomingRunner:3:8
>> 24160 --runner=CommandRunner:0:1
>> 24161 --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1
>> 24164 --runner=ArchRunner:0:1
>> 24170 /bin/python
>> 24159 /bin/python
> 
> 
> What are these last 2? Presumably they are the missing NewsRunner and
> RetryRunner, but what is the extra stuff in the ps output causing $11
> to be the python command and not the runner option? And again, why are
> these two, which presumably have done nothing, seemingly the biggest.
> 
> Here's some additional thought.
> 
> Are you sure there is an actual leak? Do you know that if you just let
> them run, they don't reach some stable size and remain there as
> opposed to growing so large that they eventually throw a MemoryError
> exception and get restarted by mailmanctl.
> 
> If you allowed them to do that once, the MemoryError traceback might
> provide a clue.
> 
> Caveat! I know very little about Python's memory management. Some of
> what follows may be wrong.
> 
> Here's what I think - Python allocates more memory (from the OS) as
> needed to import additional modules and create new objects. Imports
> don't go away, but objects that are destroyed or become unreachable
> (eg a file object that is closed or a message object whose only
> reference gets assigned to something else) become candidates for
> garbage collection and ultimately the memory allocated to them is
> collected and reused (assuming no leaks). I *think* however, that no
> memory is ever actually freed back to the OS. Thus, Python processes
> that run for a long time can grow, but don't shrink.
> 
> Now, IncomingRunner in particular can get very large if large messages
> are arriving, even if those messages are ultimately not processed very
> far. Incoming runner reads the entire message into memory and then
> parses it into a message object which is even bigger than the message
> string. So, if someone happens to send a 100MB attachment to a list,
> IncomingRunner is going to need over 200MB before it ever looks at the
> message itself. This memory will later become available for other use
> within that IncomingRunner instance, but I don't think it is ever
> freed back to the OS.
> 
> Also, I see very little memory change between the 3 hour old snapshot
> above and the 8 hour old one from your prior post. If this is really a
> memory leak, I'd expect the 8 hour old ones to be perhaps twice as big
> as the 3 hour old ones.
> 
> Also, do you have any really big lists with big config.pck files. If
> so, Runners will grow as they instantiate that (those) big list(s).

-- 
Fletcher Cocquyt
Senior Systems Administrator
Information Resources and Technology (IRT)
Stanford University School of Medicine

Email: fcocquyt at stanford.edu
Phone: (650) 724-7485



From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul  2 06:22:30 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 21:22:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <C490436F.2017D%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807012122300406c9376f74@msapiro>

Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:

>Pmap shows its the heap
>
>god at irt-smtp-02:in 8:08pm 64 # pmap 24167
>24167:    /bin/python /opt/mailman-2.1.9/bin/qrunner
>--runner=IncomingRunner:5:8
>08038000      64K rwx--    [ stack ]
>08050000     940K r-x--  /usr/local/stow/Python-2.5.2/bin/python
>0814A000     172K rwx--  /usr/local/stow/Python-2.5.2/bin/python
>08175000  312388K rwx--    [ heap ]
>CF210000      64K rwx--    [ anon ]
><--many small libs -->
> total    318300K
>
>Whether its a leak or not - we need to understand why the heap is growing
>and put a limit on its growth to avoid exausting memory and swapping into
>oblivion...


At this point, I don't think it's a leak.

Your runners start out at about 9.5 MB. Most of your working runners
grow to about the 20-40 MB range which I don't think is unusual for a
site with some config.pck files approaching 1.4 MB.

Only your IncomingRunners seem to grow really big, and I think that is
because you are seeing occasional, very large messages, or perhaps it
has something to do with your custom spam filtering interface.

Does your MTA limit incoming message size?

In any case, I know you're reluctant to just let it run, but I think if
you did let it run for a couple of days that the IncomingRunners
wouldn't get any bigger than the 310 +- MB that you're already seeing
after 3 hours, and the rest of the runners would remain in the 10 - 50
MB range.

I don't think you'll see a lot of paging activity of that 300+MB
because I suspect that most of the time nothing is going on in most of
that memory


>None of the lists seem too big:
>god at irt-smtp-02:lists 8:24pm 73 # du -sk */*pck | sort -nr | head | awk
>'{print $1}'
>1392
>1240
>1152
>1096
>912
>720
>464
>168
>136
>112
>
>Researching python heap alloaction....


You may also be interested in the FAQ article at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/94A9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Jul  2 06:48:11 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 23:48:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807012122300406c9376f74@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200807012122300406c9376f74@msapiro>
Message-ID: <p06240803c490b7e254c4@[192.168.1.102]>

On 7/1/08, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>  In any case, I know you're reluctant to just let it run, but I think if
>  you did let it run for a couple of days that the IncomingRunners
>  wouldn't get any bigger than the 310 +- MB that you're already seeing
>  after 3 hours, and the rest of the runners would remain in the 10 - 50
>  MB range.

The thing I've discovered when doing detailed memory/performance 
analysis of Mailman queue runners in the past is that, by far, the 
vast amount of memory that is in use is actually shared across all 
the processes, so in this case you'd only take that ~310MB hit once.

Some OSes make it more clear than others that this memory is being 
shared, and conversely some OSes appear to count this shared memory 
as actually belonging to multiple separate processes and end up 
vastly overstating the amount of real memory that is being allocated.

>  You may also be interested in the FAQ article at
>  <http://wiki.list.org/x/94A9>.

It would be interesting to have all those same commands run for the 
system in question, to compare with the numbers in the FAQ.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Jul  2 07:14:24 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 00:14:24 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <C490436F.2017D%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
References: <C490436F.2017D%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <p06240804c490b9a1bd82@[192.168.1.102]>

On 7/1/08, Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:

>  Pmap shows its the heap
>
>  god at irt-smtp-02:in 8:08pm 64 # pmap 24167
>  24167:    /bin/python /opt/mailman-2.1.9/bin/qrunner
>  --runner=IncomingRunner:5:8
>  08038000      64K rwx--    [ stack ]
>  08050000     940K r-x--  /usr/local/stow/Python-2.5.2/bin/python
>  0814A000     172K rwx--  /usr/local/stow/Python-2.5.2/bin/python
>  08175000  312388K rwx--    [ heap ]
>  CF210000      64K rwx--    [ anon ]
>  <--many small libs -->
>  total    318300K

And when I do the same thing on the mail server for python.org (which 
hosts over 100 lists, including some pretty active lists with large 
numbers of subscribers), on the largest queue runner we have 
(ArchRunner at 41m), I see:

# pmap 1040 | sort -nr -k 2 | head
  total    45800K
0815f000  23244K rwx--    [ anon ]
40f61000   4420K rw---    [ anon ]
40a0f000   2340K rw---    [ anon ]
408aa000   1300K rw---    [ anon ]
40745000   1300K rw---    [ anon ]
40343000   1160K r-x--  /usr/lib/i686/cmov/libcrypto.so.0.9.8
4009c000   1092K r-x--  /lib/libc-2.3.6.so
41844000   1040K rw---    [ anon ]
08048000    944K r-x--  /usr/local/bin/python

No heap showing up anywhere.  Doing the same for our IncomingRunner, I get:

# pmap 1043 | sort -nr -k 2 | head
  total    23144K
0815f000   7740K rwx--    [ anon ]
40b12000   1560K rw---    [ anon ]
40745000   1300K rw---    [ anon ]
40cb8000   1168K rw---    [ anon ]
40347000   1160K r-x--  /usr/lib/i686/cmov/libcrypto.so.0.9.8
4009c000   1092K r-x--  /lib/libc-2.3.6.so
4098d000   1040K rw---    [ anon ]
08048000    944K r-x--  /usr/local/bin/python
4063b000    936K rw---    [ anon ]

Again, no heap.

>  None of the lists seem too big:
>  god at irt-smtp-02:lists 8:24pm 73 # du -sk */*pck | sort -nr | head | awk
>  '{print $1}'
>  1392
>  1240
>  1152
>  1096
>  912
>  720
>  464
>  168
>  136
>  112

Where did you do this?  In the /usr/local/mailman directory?

When I did this in /usr/local/mailman, all of the .pck files that 
showed up were actually held messages in the data/ directory, not in 
lists/.  This would mean that they were individual messages that had 
been pickled and then held for moderation, not pickles for lists.

Doing the same in /usr/local/mailman/lists, I find that one of our 
smaller mailing lists (python-help, seventeen recipients) has the 
largest list pickle (1044 kilobytes).  We have a total of 150 lists, 
and here's the current subscription count of the five biggest lists:

    4075 Python-list
    3305 Tutor
    2600 Mailman-Users
    2329 Mailman-announce
    1528 Python-announce-list

Of these, python-list and tutor frequently gets between twenty to a 
hundred or more messages in a day.  However, here's their respective 
list.pck files, using the same "du -sk" script from above:

904     tutor/config.pck
652     python-list/config.pck
476     mailman-users/config.pck
324     mailman-announce/config.pck
208     python-announce-list/config.pck

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Jul  2 06:58:41 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 23:58:41 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <PC187020080701153708068708118277@msapiro>
References: <PC187020080701153708068708118277@msapiro>
Message-ID: <p06240805c490ba59e8d1@[192.168.1.102]>

On 7/1/08, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>  In this snapshot
>
>    PID USERNAME LWP PRI NICE  SIZE   RES STATE    TIME    CPU COMMAND
>  10123 mailman    1  59    0  314M  311M sleep    1:57  0.02% python
>  10131 mailman    1  59    0  310M  307M sleep    1:35  0.01% python
>  10124 mailman    1  59    0  309M   78M sleep    0:45  0.10% python
>  10134 mailman    1  59    0  307M   81M sleep    1:27  0.01% python
>  10125 mailman    1  59    0  307M   79M sleep    0:42  0.01% python
>  10133 mailman    1  59    0   44M   41M sleep    0:14  0.01% python
>  10122 mailman    1  59    0   34M   30M sleep    0:43  0.39% python
>  10127 mailman    1  59    0   31M   27M sleep    0:40  0.26% python
>  10130 mailman    1  59    0   30M   26M sleep    0:15  0.03% python
>  10129 mailman    1  59    0   28M   24M sleep    0:19  0.10% python
>  10126 mailman    1  59    0   28M   25M sleep    1:07  0.59% python
>  10132 mailman    1  59    0   27M   24M sleep    1:00  0.46% python
>  10128 mailman    1  59    0   27M   24M sleep    0:16  0.01% python
>  10151 mailman    1  59    0 9516K 3852K sleep    0:05  0.01% python
>  10150 mailman    1  59    0 9500K 3764K sleep    0:00  0.00% python
>
>  Which processes correspond to which runners. And why are the two
>  processes that have apparently done the least the ones that have grown
>  the most.

In contrast, the mail server for python.org shows the following:

top - 06:54:48 up 29 days,  9:09,  4 users,  load average: 1.05, 1.08, 0.95
Tasks: 151 total,   1 running, 149 sleeping,   0 stopped,   1 zombie
Cpu(s):   0.2% user,   1.1% system,   0.0% nice,  98.7% idle

   PID USER      PR  VIRT  NI  RES  SHR S %CPU    TIME+  %MEM COMMAND
  1040 mailman    9 42960   0  41m  12m S    0 693:59.44  2.1 ArchRunner:0:1 -s
  1041 mailman    9 22876   0  20m 7488 S    0 478:18.62  1.0 BounceRunner:0:1
  1045 mailman    9 20412   0  19m  10m S    0   3031:12  0.9 OutgoingRunner:0:
  1043 mailman    9 20476   0  18m 4968 S    0 127:02.62  0.9 IncomingRunner:0:
  1042 mailman    9 18564   0  17m 7316 S    0  11:34.14  0.9 CommandRunner:0:1
  1046 mailman   11 17276   0  15m  10m S    1  66:32.16  0.8 VirginRunner:0:1
  1044 mailman    9 11568   0 9964 5184 S    0  12:34.04  0.5 NewsRunner:0:1 -s

And those are the only Python-related processes that show up in the 
first twenty lines.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Jul  2 07:21:01 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 00:21:01 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <C490436F.2017D%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
References: <C490436F.2017D%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <p06240806c490bfe635bf@[192.168.1.102]>

On 7/1/08, Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:

>  Fletcher Cocquyt
>  Senior Systems Administrator
>  Information Resources and Technology (IRT)
>  Stanford University School of Medicine

BTW, in case it hasn't come through yet -- I am very sensitive to 
your issues.  In my "real" life, I am currently employed as a Sr. 
System Administrator at the University of Texas at Austin, with about 
~50,000 students and ~20,000 faculty and staff, and one of my jobs is 
helping out with both the mail system administration and the mailing 
list system administration.

So, just because I post messages quoting the current statistics we're 
seeing on python.org, that doesn't mean I'm not sensitive to the 
problems you're seeing.  All I'm saying is that we're not currently 
seeing them on python.org, so it may be a bit more difficult for us 
to directly answer your questions, although we'll certainly do 
everything we can do help.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From johnlist at gulfbridge.net  Wed Jul  2 07:13:43 2008
From: johnlist at gulfbridge.net (John Hicks)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 01:13:43 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How can I check status of or abort a mailing in
	progress?
Message-ID: <486B0E87.90702@gulfbridge.net>

I have been hosting a mailing list of 16,000 names which has been 
purring along for over a year now with no problems. (I am running 
Mailman 2.1.5, Postfix-2.2.10,  on RHES 4.0)

Recently I reconfigured this list to enable personalization so my client 
could do a better job of processing cancellation requests from 
subscribers. The processing time for a mailing (from the smtp log) went 
from a few seconds per mailing to a few minutes, but nothing unreasonable.

Heady from this success, I re-reconfigured the list to enable "full 
personalization". My client posted his first message using this 
configuration Sunday night and it is still being processed (Tuesday 
night). The smtp log is filling with entries indicating either one or 
three recipients were processed. [I understand the reason for the 
singletons but not the triplets.] These entries occur in batches of a 
hundred or so and then pause for an hour or two.

I have no idea how far the system has gotten in processing the entire 
list. Is there any way to find out? (The message already appears in the 
archives but there is no entry in the Mailman "post" log.)

My client wants me to cancel the post, but I can't find any indication 
of how one would go about doing that. Nothing in the "documentation," 
wiki, FAQ, and only one post on the subject on this list (but without an 
answer to the question).

Any help would be appreciated.

(Also pointing me toward any general document on the overall design and 
architecture of Mailman would be appreciated. The only documentation I 
can find is user or list-admin oriented. Not a clue about how Mailman 
actually gets its job done.)

Thanks in advance,

John Hicks

From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Jul  2 07:46:10 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 00:46:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How can I check status of or abort a mailing in
 progress?
In-Reply-To: <486B0E87.90702@gulfbridge.net>
References: <486B0E87.90702@gulfbridge.net>
Message-ID: <p06240809c490c51f6f11@[192.168.1.102]>

On 7/2/08, John Hicks wrote:

>  I have no idea how far the system has gotten in processing the entire list.
>  Is there any way to find out? (The message already appears in the archives
>  but there is no entry in the Mailman "post" log.)

Other than what is showing up in the Mailman smtp logs and in the 
postfix syslog, there's no "status" tool that I know of.

>  My client wants me to cancel the post, but I can't find any indication of
>  how one would go about doing that. Nothing in the "documentation," wiki,
>  FAQ, and only one post on the subject on this list (but without an answer
>  to the question).

It's pretty simple, actually -- stop Mailman and postfix, clean out 
all the affected queue messages and move them aside, then restart 
Mailman and postfix.

How you find out which queue messages are affected will be a bit 
harder, but with the "dumpdb" program for dumping Python pickles, and 
the "postcat" command to look at postfix messages in the queue, that 
shouldn't be too excessively difficult.

>  (Also pointing me toward any general document on the overall design and
>  architecture of Mailman would be appreciated. The only documentation I
>  can find is user or list-admin oriented. Not a clue about how Mailman
>  actually gets its job done.)

I'm not sure what you're asking for.  There's plenty of FAQ entries 
that are specific to site admins, and there's also documentation 
specific to site administrators.  I don't know how much more 
"actually gets its job done" you get than that.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From fcocquyt at stanford.edu  Wed Jul  2 08:05:37 2008
From: fcocquyt at stanford.edu (Fletcher Cocquyt)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 23:05:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <p06240805c490ba59e8d1@[192.168.1.102]>
Message-ID: <C49068C1.2019A%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>

I did a test - I disabled the SpamAssassin integration and watched the heap
grow steadily - I do not believe its SA related:

god at irt-smtp-02:mailman-2.1.9 10:51pm 68 # pmap 22804 | egrep heap
08175000   14060K rwx--    [ heap ]
god at irt-smtp-02:mailman-2.1.9 10:51pm 69 # pmap 22804 | egrep heap
08175000   16620K rwx--    [ heap ]
god at irt-smtp-02:mailman-2.1.9 10:52pm 70 # pmap 22804 | egrep heap
08175000   16620K rwx--    [ heap ]
god at irt-smtp-02:mailman-2.1.9 10:53pm 75 # pmap 22804 | egrep heap
08175000   18924K rwx--    [ heap ]
god at irt-smtp-02:mailman-2.1.9 10:54pm 81 # pmap 22804 | egrep heap
08175000   19692K rwx--    [ heap ]
god at irt-smtp-02:mailman-2.1.9 10:55pm 82 # pmap 22804 | egrep heap
08175000   19692K rwx--    [ heap ]

Trying to find a way to look at the contents of the heap or at least limit
its growth.
Or is there not a way expire & restart mailman processes analogous to the
apache httpd process expiration (designed to mitigate this kind of resource
growth over time)?

thanks

On 7/1/08 9:58 PM, "Brad Knowles" <brad at shub-internet.org> wrote:

> On 7/1/08, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
>>  In this snapshot
>> 
>>    PID USERNAME LWP PRI NICE  SIZE   RES STATE    TIME    CPU COMMAND
>>  10123 mailman    1  59    0  314M  311M sleep    1:57  0.02% python
>>  10131 mailman    1  59    0  310M  307M sleep    1:35  0.01% python
>>  10124 mailman    1  59    0  309M   78M sleep    0:45  0.10% python
>>  10134 mailman    1  59    0  307M   81M sleep    1:27  0.01% python
>>  10125 mailman    1  59    0  307M   79M sleep    0:42  0.01% python
>>  10133 mailman    1  59    0   44M   41M sleep    0:14  0.01% python
>>  10122 mailman    1  59    0   34M   30M sleep    0:43  0.39% python
>>  10127 mailman    1  59    0   31M   27M sleep    0:40  0.26% python
>>  10130 mailman    1  59    0   30M   26M sleep    0:15  0.03% python
>>  10129 mailman    1  59    0   28M   24M sleep    0:19  0.10% python
>>  10126 mailman    1  59    0   28M   25M sleep    1:07  0.59% python
>>  10132 mailman    1  59    0   27M   24M sleep    1:00  0.46% python
>>  10128 mailman    1  59    0   27M   24M sleep    0:16  0.01% python
>>  10151 mailman    1  59    0 9516K 3852K sleep    0:05  0.01% python
>>  10150 mailman    1  59    0 9500K 3764K sleep    0:00  0.00% python
>> 
>>  Which processes correspond to which runners. And why are the two
>>  processes that have apparently done the least the ones that have grown
>>  the most.
> 
> In contrast, the mail server for python.org shows the following:
> 
> top - 06:54:48 up 29 days,  9:09,  4 users,  load average: 1.05, 1.08, 0.95
> Tasks: 151 total,   1 running, 149 sleeping,   0 stopped,   1 zombie
> Cpu(s):   0.2% user,   1.1% system,   0.0% nice,  98.7% idle
> 
>    PID USER      PR  VIRT  NI  RES  SHR S %CPU    TIME+  %MEM COMMAND
>   1040 mailman    9 42960   0  41m  12m S    0 693:59.44  2.1 ArchRunner:0:1
> -s
>   1041 mailman    9 22876   0  20m 7488 S    0 478:18.62  1.0 BounceRunner:0:1
>   1045 mailman    9 20412   0  19m  10m S    0   3031:12  0.9
> OutgoingRunner:0:
>   1043 mailman    9 20476   0  18m 4968 S    0 127:02.62  0.9
> IncomingRunner:0:
>   1042 mailman    9 18564   0  17m 7316 S    0  11:34.14  0.9
> CommandRunner:0:1
>   1046 mailman   11 17276   0  15m  10m S    1  66:32.16  0.8 VirginRunner:0:1
>   1044 mailman    9 11568   0 9964 5184 S    0  12:34.04  0.5 NewsRunner:0:1
> -s
> 
> And those are the only Python-related processes that show up in the
> first twenty lines.

-- 
Fletcher Cocquyt
Senior Systems Administrator
Information Resources and Technology (IRT)
Stanford University School of Medicine

Email: fcocquyt at stanford.edu
Phone: (650) 724-7485



From Tim.Bell at Sun.COM  Wed Jul  2 08:37:10 2008
From: Tim.Bell at Sun.COM (Tim Bell)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 23:37:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours
 (memory leak?)
In-Reply-To: <C48FA70E.1FFDC%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
References: <C48FA70E.1FFDC%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <486B2216.5040203@sun.com>

Back at the beginning of this thread, Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:

> Config: 
> Solaris 10 x86
> Python 2.5.2
> Mailman 2.1.9 (8 Incoming queue runners - the leak rate increases with this)
> SpamAssassin 3.2.5
> 
> At this point I am looking for ways to isolate the suspected memory leak - I
> am looking at using dtrace: http://blogs.sun.com/sanjeevb/date/200506
> 
> Any other tips appreciated!

With Solaris 10, you can interpose the libumem library when starting those python processes.
This gives you different malloc()/free() allocators including extra instrumentation that is
low enough in overhead to run in a production environment, and (when combined with mdb) a 
powerful set of debugging tools.

Set LD_PRELOAD, UMEM_DEBUG, UMEM_LOGGING environment variables in the parent process before 
starting python so they will inherit the settings.  If you have to, you could replace 'python' 
with a script that sets what you want in the environment and then runs the python executable.

I know this will be looking at the lower, native layers of the problem, and you may not see the 
upper (python) part of the stack very well, but libumem has been a big help to me so I thought 
I would mention it.

Here are two references... there are many more if you start searching:

Identifying Memory Management Bugs Within Applications
Using the libumem Library
http://access1.sun.com/techarticles/libumem.html

Solaris Modular Debugger Guide
http://docs.sun.com/db/doc/806-6545

Hope this helps - this is too long, so I'll stop now.

Tim

From bernd at firmix.at  Wed Jul  2 11:05:12 2008
From: bernd at firmix.at (Bernd Petrovitsch)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:05:12 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscribing
In-Reply-To: <200807011639.34789.laidlaws@hotkey.net.au>
References: <200807011639.34789.laidlaws@hotkey.net.au>
Message-ID: <1214989512.19283.8.camel@tara.firmix.at>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
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URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/attachments/20080702/1927e160/attachment.txt>

From khillo100 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul  2 13:57:30 2008
From: khillo100 at hotmail.com (Khalil Abbas)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 11:57:30 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Auto Install
In-Reply-To: <mailman.18.1214992808.16092.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.18.1214992808.16092.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <BLU130-W690FB4D153F90B42DCDABFB990@phx.gbl>


Hi, 
 
I bought a dedicated server to host my list with .. but for my surprise, mailman did not exist in its control panel which is webmin .. in cpanel u can just click a button and it will do everything but not in webmin ..
 
I tried to follow the installation instructions from the site (list.org) but it's like reading chineese!! I couldn't understand a thing .. 
 
is there like a script to automatically install mailman like in forums ? u just run a single command and it automatically extracts the mailman files (which I didn't know how to do that in the first place) and  asks you a few questions to configure mailman???
 
please help ..
 
Thanks..
_________________________________________________________________
Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_072008

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul  2 16:26:49 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 07:26:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How can I check status of or abort a mailing
	inprogress?
In-Reply-To: <486B0E87.90702@gulfbridge.net>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807020726490562f2cd1e63@msapiro>

John Hicks wrote:
>
>Heady from this success, I re-reconfigured the list to enable "full 
>personalization". My client posted his first message using this 
>configuration Sunday night and it is still being processed (Tuesday 
>night). The smtp log is filling with entries indicating either one or 
>three recipients were processed. [I understand the reason for the 
>singletons but not the triplets.] These entries occur in batches of a 
>hundred or so and then pause for an hour or two.
>
>I have no idea how far the system has gotten in processing the entire 
>list. Is there any way to find out? (The message already appears in the 
>archives but there is no entry in the Mailman "post" log.)
>
>My client wants me to cancel the post, but I can't find any indication 
>of how one would go about doing that. Nothing in the "documentation," 
>wiki, FAQ, and only one post on the subject on this list (but without an 
>answer to the question).


The only difference between personalize = Yes, and personalize = Full
is the contents of the To: header in the message. Normally, this would
have no effect whatsoever on the SMTP interaction between Mailman and
the MTA.

Also, with respect to logging, I don't understand the singletons or
triplets without more information. If there are no failures
(smtp-failure log), even with Full personalization, the SMTPDirect
handler writes one smtp log entry and the post log entry at the end
after everything is delivered to the MTA.

Brad posted how to cancel if you can - stop Mailman. Look at the
entries in the 'out' and 'retry' queues with bin/dumpdb or
bin/show_qfiles and remove the ones for this message. There will be at
most one in 'out'. I'm not sure about retry. For anything that left
Mailman , you have to look to the MTA.

What are the message-ids in the smtp log entries? What's in the
smtp-failure log.?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul  2 17:15:17 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 08:15:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <C49068C1.2019A%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <PC187020080702081517028138c4a06a@msapiro>

Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:

>I did a test - I disabled the SpamAssassin integration and watched the heap
>grow steadily - I do not believe its SA related:


OK.

Does your MTA limit the size of incoming messages? Can it?

At some point in the next day or so, I'm going to make a modified
scripts/post script which will queue incoming messages in qfiles/bad
and then move them to qfiles/in only if they are under a certain size.
I'm really curious to see if that will help.


>Trying to find a way to look at the contents of the heap or at least limit
>its growth.
>Or is there not a way expire & restart mailman processes analogous to the
>apache httpd process expiration (designed to mitigate this kind of resource
>growth over time)?


bin/mailmanctl could be modified to do this automatically, but
currently only does it on command (restart) or signal (SIGINT), but I
gather you're already running a cron that does a periodic restart.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Wed Jul  2 17:18:52 2008
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:18:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Auto Install
In-Reply-To: <BLU130-W690FB4D153F90B42DCDABFB990@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.18.1214992808.16092.mailman-users@python.org>
	<BLU130-W690FB4D153F90B42DCDABFB990@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <200807021514.m62FEFup032105@newbox.eroded.org>

Khalil Abbas wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I bought a dedicated server to host my list with .. but for my 
>surprise, mailman did not exist in its control panel which is webmin 
>.. in cpanel u can just click a button and it will do everything but 
>not in webmin ..
>
>I tried to follow the installation instructions from the site 
>(list.org) but it's like reading chineese!! I couldn't understand a thing ..
>
>is there like a script to automatically install mailman like in 
>forums ? u just run a single command and it automatically extracts 
>the mailman files (which I didn't know how to do that in the first 
>place) and  asks you a few questions to configure mailman???
>
>please help ..
>
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Installing mailman from source assumes that you have some 
understanding of how to do a fair number of things from the command 
line interface. Having said that, I think the documentation is not 
too complicated and if you take your time you should be able to 
follow it as long as the other pieces you need are installed (like 
Apache web server) and you have root access to do certain things to 
configure the system.

Some OS distributions have pre-packaged versions of mailman that can 
be installed with a package manager like yum but the problem I see 
with these is that they are often reorganized to place components of 
the system in different places that the OS vendor thinks are 
appropriate. This can make troubleshooting problems a bit more difficult.

In my opinion, I'd say that in the long run you will be better off 
learning how to administer the system from the command line so you 
don't have to rely on control panels. Knowing this makes it far 
easier to get the system working the way you want and lets you more 
effectively fix problems.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From david at midrange.com  Wed Jul  2 17:21:52 2008
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:21:52 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman group on LinkedIn
Message-ID: <486B9D10.6090506@midrange.com>

Folks:

On a lark, I created a Mailman group on LinkedIn.

If you would like to join the group, visit 
http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/134598/181E8C14C43E.

david

-- 
IBM i on Power Systems - For when you can't afford to be out of business


From fcocquyt at stanford.edu  Wed Jul  2 17:55:48 2008
From: fcocquyt at stanford.edu (Fletcher Cocquyt)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:55:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <PC187020080702081517028138c4a06a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <C490F314.2027B%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>




On 7/2/08 8:15 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:
> 
>> I did a test - I disabled the SpamAssassin integration and watched the heap
>> grow steadily - I do not believe its SA related:
> 
> 
> OK.
> 
> Does your MTA limit the size of incoming messages? Can it?
No, Yes 
# maximum message size
#O MaxMessageSize=0

> At some point in the next day or so, I'm going to make a modified
> scripts/post script which will queue incoming messages in qfiles/bad
> and then move them to qfiles/in only if they are under a certain size.
> I'm really curious to see if that will help.

Yes, having a global incoming maxmessagesize limit and handler (what will
the sender receive back?) for mailman would be useful.

> 
> 
>> Trying to find a way to look at the contents of the heap or at least limit
>> its growth.
>> Or is there not a way expire & restart mailman processes analogous to the
>> apache httpd process expiration (designed to mitigate this kind of resource
>> growth over time)?
> 
> 
> bin/mailmanctl could be modified to do this automatically, but
> currently only does it on command (restart) or signal (SIGINT), but I
> gather you're already running a cron that does a periodic restart.

-- 
Fletcher Cocquyt
Senior Systems Administrator
Information Resources and Technology (IRT)
Stanford University School of Medicine

Email: fcocquyt at stanford.edu
Phone: (650) 724-7485



From lrosa at hypertrek.info  Wed Jul  2 17:48:07 2008
From: lrosa at hypertrek.info (Luigi Rosa)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 17:48:07 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman group on LinkedIn
In-Reply-To: <486B9D10.6090506@midrange.com>
References: <486B9D10.6090506@midrange.com>
Message-ID: <486BA337.6030706@hypertrek.info>

David Gibbs said the following on 02/07/2008 17.21:

> If you would like to join the group, visit 
> http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/134598/181E8C14C43E.

Good idea! I just joined the group.




Ciao,
luigi

-- 
/
+--[Luigi Rosa]--
\

Hackers do it with all sorts of characters.

From fcocquyt at stanford.edu  Wed Jul  2 18:01:58 2008
From: fcocquyt at stanford.edu (Fletcher Cocquyt)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 09:01:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <C49071AA.201A8%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <C490F486.2027E%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>

Last night I added 
ulimit -v 50000 

To the /etc/init.d/mailman script and restarted

And I am seeing the processes stop growing at 49M - and so far no adverse
affects.

I view this as a workaround until the underlying cause is determined...
But it also allows me to bump my incoming runners from 8 to 16 and
manage/enforce the overall memory footprint - I like it (so far)


last pid:  8371;  load averages:  0.07,  0.11,  0.16
08:57:41
91 processes:  90 sleeping, 1 on cpu
CPU states: 98.2% idle,  0.5% user,  1.3% kernel,  0.0% iowait,  0.0% swap
Memory: 1640M real, 792M free, 697M swap in use, 2602M swap free

   PID USERNAME LWP PRI NICE  SIZE   RES STATE    TIME    CPU COMMAND
  7565 mailman    1  59    0   49M   46M sleep    0:07  0.01% python
  7571 mailman    1  59    0   35M   31M sleep    0:04  0.01% python
  7551 mailman    1  59    0   35M   32M sleep    0:18  0.02% python
  7554 mailman    1  59    0   31M   27M sleep    0:22  0.02% python
  7568 mailman    1  59    0   31M   28M sleep    0:03  0.01% python
  7574 mailman    1  59    0   30M   28M sleep    0:03  0.01% python
  7570 mailman    1  59    0   30M   27M sleep    0:14  0.01% python
  7560 mailman    1  59    0   30M   27M sleep    0:12  0.15% python
  7562 mailman    1  59    0   27M   25M sleep    0:03  0.02% python
  7566 mailman    1  59    0   27M   25M sleep    0:03  0.01% python
  7569 mailman    1  59    0   27M   25M sleep    0:04  0.01% python
  7561 mailman    1  59    0   27M   24M sleep    0:03  0.01% python
  7558 mailman    1  59    0   26M   24M sleep    0:19  0.02% python
  7572 mailman    1  59    0   26M   23M sleep    0:03  0.01% python
  7567 mailman    1  59    0   26M   23M sleep    0:03  0.01% python


On 7/1/08 11:43 PM, "Fletcher Cocquyt" <fcocquyt at stanford.edu> wrote:

> Hey thanks, I really appreciated the responsiveness, and helpful analysis by
> the folks on this list
> 
> BTW I am experimenting with ulimit -v to limit the growth of mailman procs
> (added it to the init script)
> Will see what the growth looks like overnight and report back - thanks
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/1/08 10:21 PM, "Brad Knowles" <brad at shub-internet.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 7/1/08, Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:
>> 
>>>  Fletcher Cocquyt
>>>  Senior Systems Administrator
>>>  Information Resources and Technology (IRT)
>>>  Stanford University School of Medicine
>> 
>> BTW, in case it hasn't come through yet -- I am very sensitive to
>> your issues.  In my "real" life, I am currently employed as a Sr.
>> System Administrator at the University of Texas at Austin, with about
>> ~50,000 students and ~20,000 faculty and staff, and one of my jobs is
>> helping out with both the mail system administration and the mailing
>> list system administration.
>> 
>> So, just because I post messages quoting the current statistics we're
>> seeing on python.org, that doesn't mean I'm not sensitive to the
>> problems you're seeing.  All I'm saying is that we're not currently
>> seeing them on python.org, so it may be a bit more difficult for us
>> to directly answer your questions, although we'll certainly do
>> everything we can do help.

-- 
Fletcher Cocquyt
Senior Systems Administrator
Information Resources and Technology (IRT)
Stanford University School of Medicine

Email: fcocquyt at stanford.edu
Phone: (650) 724-7485



From barry at list.org  Wed Jul  2 18:03:42 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:03:42 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <PC187020080702081517028138c4a06a@msapiro>
References: <PC187020080702081517028138c4a06a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <89C35AC9-B253-46B5-B230-15A9C2070F46@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jul 2, 2008, at 11:15 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> At some point in the next day or so, I'm going to make a modified
> scripts/post script which will queue incoming messages in qfiles/bad
> and then move them to qfiles/in only if they are under a certain size.
> I'm really curious to see if that will help.

This should be moved to mailman-developers, but in general it's an  
interesting idea. In MM3 I've split the incoming queue into two  
separate queues.  The incoming queue now solely determines the  
disposition of the message, i.e. held, rejected, discarded or  
accepted.  If accepted, the message is moved to a pipeline queue where  
it's munged for delivery (i.e. headers and footers added, etc.).

MM3 also has an LMTP queue runner, which I'd like to make the default  
delivery mechanism for 3.0 and possibly 2.2 (yes, I still have a todo  
to back port MM3's new process architecture to 2.2).  Although it's  
not there right now, it would be trivial to add a check on the raw  
size of the message before it's parsed.  If it's too large then it can  
be rejected before the email package attempts to parse it, and that  
would give the upstream LTMP client (i.e. your MTA) a better diagnostic.

It still makes sense to put a size limit in your MTA so it never hits  
the LMTP server because the string will still be in the Python  
process's memory.  But at least you won't pay the penalty for parsing  
such a huge message just to reject it later.

>> Trying to find a way to look at the contents of the heap or at  
>> least limit
>> its growth.
>> Or is there not a way expire & restart mailman processes analogous  
>> to the
>> apache httpd process expiration (designed to mitigate this kind of  
>> resource
>> growth over time)?
>
>
> bin/mailmanctl could be modified to do this automatically, but
> currently only does it on command (restart) or signal (SIGINT), but I
> gather you're already running a cron that does a periodic restart.

This is a good idea.  It might be better to do this in  
Runner._doperiodic().

- -Barry

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From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Jul  2 18:22:21 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:22:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <C49068C1.2019A%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
References: <C49068C1.2019A%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <486BAB3D.1060404@shub-internet.org>

Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:

> Or is there not a way expire & restart mailman processes analogous to the
> apache httpd process expiration (designed to mitigate this kind of resource
> growth over time)?

You can do "mailmanctl restart", but that's not really a proper solution to 
this problem.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From rcampbel at eng.utoledo.edu  Wed Jul  2 18:31:31 2008
From: rcampbel at eng.utoledo.edu (Robert Campbell)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:31:31 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Apache and pipermail 403 issues
In-Reply-To: <8bae9e280807020924t6ed2ee29mebb2fbc8139a3859@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8bae9e280807020748ld7771dbsae4dfb9cbe129ed8@mail.gmail.com>
	<8bae9e280807020924t6ed2ee29mebb2fbc8139a3859@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8bae9e280807020931p42e07c3o3d76e32245a74977@mail.gmail.com>

Currently when ever I try to get to the mailman archives for any of the
mailing lists I revcive a 403 error.
When I check the apache error log i see the following line:

[Wed Jul 02 10:28:52 2008] [error] [client <some ip>] client denied by
server configuration: <var-install-location>/archives/public/

The Private folder is owned by what apache runs under.

Also the apache config file has

Alias /pipermail/ <var-install-location>/archives/public/

<Directory <var-install-location>
AllowOverride   All
Options +FollowSymLinks
AddDefaultCharset Off
</Directory>

<Directory <install-prefix>>
AllowOverride   All
Options +FollowSymLinks
AddDefaultCharset Off
</Directory>

ScriptAlias /mailman/ "<prefix>/cgi-bin/"
 <Directory <prefix>/cgi-bin>
AllowOverride All
Order allow,deny
Allow from all
</Directory>

Apache version: 2.2.6
Mailman version: 1.1.11rc1

If there are any ideas on how to fix this please let me know.

Thanks

From fcocquyt at stanford.edu  Wed Jul  2 19:12:42 2008
From: fcocquyt at stanford.edu (Fletcher Cocquyt)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:12:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <486BAB3D.1060404@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <C491051A.202B0%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>

I am hopeful our esteemed code maintainers are thinking the built in restart
idea is a good one:

BW wrote:
>> Or is there not a way expire & restart mailman processes analogous
>> to the
>> apache httpd process expiration (designed to mitigate this kind of
>> resource
>> growth over time)?
>
>
> bin/mailmanctl could be modified to do this automatically, but
> currently only does it on command (restart) or signal (SIGINT), but I
> gather you're already running a cron that does a periodic restart.

This is a good idea.  It might be better to do this in
Runner._doperiodic().


On 7/2/08 9:22 AM, "Brad Knowles" <brad at shub-internet.org> wrote:

> Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:
> 
>> Or is there not a way expire & restart mailman processes analogous to the
>> apache httpd process expiration (designed to mitigate this kind of resource
>> growth over time)?
> 
> You can do "mailmanctl restart", but that's not really a proper solution to
> this problem.

-- 
Fletcher Cocquyt
Senior Systems Administrator
Information Resources and Technology (IRT)
Stanford University School of Medicine

Email: fcocquyt at stanford.edu
Phone: (650) 724-7485



From barry at list.org  Wed Jul  2 19:14:45 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 13:14:45 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <C491051A.202B0%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
References: <C491051A.202B0%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <FBC9F872-EFD4-43E0-A79B-C8E5F606BE4F@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jul 2, 2008, at 1:12 PM, Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:

> I am hopeful our esteemed code maintainers are thinking the built in  
> restart
> idea is a good one:

Optionally, yes.  By default, I'm not so sure.

- -Barry

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From fcocquyt at stanford.edu  Wed Jul  2 19:17:14 2008
From: fcocquyt at stanford.edu (Fletcher Cocquyt)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:17:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <C490F486.2027E%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <C491062A.202B2%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>

Interesting, the growth per python is limited to 50M by ulimit -v 50000, but
I'm seeing each one gradually take up that limit - then what ? (stay tuned!
- mailman fails to malloc?)

load averages:  0.14,  0.11,  0.11
10:14:43
120 processes: 119 sleeping, 1 on cpu
CPU states: 93.9% idle,  3.7% user,  2.4% kernel,  0.0% iowait,  0.0% swap
Memory: 1640M real, 646M free, 858M swap in use, 2436M swap free

   PID USERNAME LWP PRI NICE  SIZE   RES STATE    TIME    CPU COMMAND
  7566 mailman    1  59    0   49M   46M sleep    0:08  0.01% python
  7565 mailman    1  59    0   49M   46M sleep    0:09  0.02% python
  7557 mailman    1  59    0   48M   46M sleep    0:08  0.01% python
  7569 mailman    1  59    0   48M   45M sleep    0:09  0.01% python
  7552 mailman    1  59    0   47M   45M sleep    0:08  0.01% python
  7561 mailman    1  59    0   47M   45M sleep    0:08  0.06% python
  7570 mailman    1  59    0   47M   44M sleep    0:20  0.01% python
  7571 mailman    1  59    0   35M   31M sleep    0:05  0.01% python
  7551 mailman    1  59    0   35M   32M sleep    0:31  0.16% python
  7554 mailman    1  59    0   31M   27M sleep    0:37  0.35% python
  7568 mailman    1  59    0   31M   28M sleep    0:05  0.01% python
  7574 mailman    1  59    0   30M   28M sleep    0:05  0.37% python
  7560 mailman    1  59    0   30M   27M sleep    0:20  0.02% python
  7562 mailman    1  59    0   27M   25M sleep    0:06  0.03% python
  7558 mailman    1  59    0   26M   24M sleep    0:33  0.35% python


On 7/2/08 9:01 AM, "Fletcher Cocquyt" <fcocquyt at stanford.edu> wrote:

> Last night I added
> ulimit -v 50000 
> 
> To the /etc/init.d/mailman script and restarted
> 
> And I am seeing the processes stop growing at 49M - and so far no adverse
> affects.
> 
> I view this as a workaround until the underlying cause is determined...
> But it also allows me to bump my incoming runners from 8 to 16 and
> manage/enforce the overall memory footprint - I like it (so far)
> 
> 
> last pid:  8371;  load averages:  0.07,  0.11,  0.16
> 08:57:41
> 91 processes:  90 sleeping, 1 on cpu
> CPU states: 98.2% idle,  0.5% user,  1.3% kernel,  0.0% iowait,  0.0% swap
> Memory: 1640M real, 792M free, 697M swap in use, 2602M swap free
> 
>    PID USERNAME LWP PRI NICE  SIZE   RES STATE    TIME    CPU COMMAND
>   7565 mailman    1  59    0   49M   46M sleep    0:07  0.01% python
>   7571 mailman    1  59    0   35M   31M sleep    0:04  0.01% python
>   7551 mailman    1  59    0   35M   32M sleep    0:18  0.02% python
>   7554 mailman    1  59    0   31M   27M sleep    0:22  0.02% python
>   7568 mailman    1  59    0   31M   28M sleep    0:03  0.01% python
>   7574 mailman    1  59    0   30M   28M sleep    0:03  0.01% python
>   7570 mailman    1  59    0   30M   27M sleep    0:14  0.01% python
>   7560 mailman    1  59    0   30M   27M sleep    0:12  0.15% python
>   7562 mailman    1  59    0   27M   25M sleep    0:03  0.02% python
>   7566 mailman    1  59    0   27M   25M sleep    0:03  0.01% python
>   7569 mailman    1  59    0   27M   25M sleep    0:04  0.01% python
>   7561 mailman    1  59    0   27M   24M sleep    0:03  0.01% python
>   7558 mailman    1  59    0   26M   24M sleep    0:19  0.02% python
>   7572 mailman    1  59    0   26M   23M sleep    0:03  0.01% python
>   7567 mailman    1  59    0   26M   23M sleep    0:03  0.01% python
> 
> 
> On 7/1/08 11:43 PM, "Fletcher Cocquyt" <fcocquyt at stanford.edu> wrote:
> 
>> Hey thanks, I really appreciated the responsiveness, and helpful analysis by
>> the folks on this list
>> 
>> BTW I am experimenting with ulimit -v to limit the growth of mailman procs
>> (added it to the init script)
>> Will see what the growth looks like overnight and report back - thanks
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 7/1/08 10:21 PM, "Brad Knowles" <brad at shub-internet.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 7/1/08, Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:
>>> 
>>>>  Fletcher Cocquyt
>>>>  Senior Systems Administrator
>>>>  Information Resources and Technology (IRT)
>>>>  Stanford University School of Medicine
>>> 
>>> BTW, in case it hasn't come through yet -- I am very sensitive to
>>> your issues.  In my "real" life, I am currently employed as a Sr.
>>> System Administrator at the University of Texas at Austin, with about
>>> ~50,000 students and ~20,000 faculty and staff, and one of my jobs is
>>> helping out with both the mail system administration and the mailing
>>> list system administration.
>>> 
>>> So, just because I post messages quoting the current statistics we're
>>> seeing on python.org, that doesn't mean I'm not sensitive to the
>>> problems you're seeing.  All I'm saying is that we're not currently
>>> seeing them on python.org, so it may be a bit more difficult for us
>>> to directly answer your questions, although we'll certainly do
>>> everything we can do help.

-- 
Fletcher Cocquyt
Senior Systems Administrator
Information Resources and Technology (IRT)
Stanford University School of Medicine

Email: fcocquyt at stanford.edu
Phone: (650) 724-7485



From fcocquyt at stanford.edu  Wed Jul  2 22:54:00 2008
From: fcocquyt at stanford.edu (Fletcher Cocquyt)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:54:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours -
 dtrace stack
In-Reply-To: <FBC9F872-EFD4-43E0-A79B-C8E5F606BE4F@list.org>
Message-ID: <C49138F8.2035B%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>

I had a parallel thread on the dtrace list to get memleak.d running

http://blogs.sun.com/sanjeevb/date/200506

 - I just got this stack trace from a 10 second sample of the most actively
growing python mailman process - the output is explained by Sanjeev on his
blog, but I'm hoping the stack trace will point the analysis towards a cause
for why my mailman processes are  growing abnormally

I will see if the findleaks.pl analysis of this output returns anything

Thanks!

  0  42246                   realloc:return Ptr=0x824c268 Oldptr=0x0 Size=16
              libc.so.1`realloc+0x33a
              python`addcleanup+0x45
              python`convertsimple+0x145d
              python`vgetargs1+0x259
              python`_PyArg_ParseTuple_SizeT+0x1d
              python`posix_listdir+0x55
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x59ff
              python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x49ff
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
              python`PyEval_EvalCode+0x22
              python`PyRun_FileExFlags+0xaf
              python`PyRun_SimpleFileExFlags+0x156
              python`Py_Main+0xa6b
              python`main+0x17
              python`_start+0x80

  0  42249                       free:entry Ptr=0x824c268
  0  42244                   lmalloc:return Ptr=0xcf890300 Size=16
              libc.so.1`lmalloc+0x143
              libc.so.1`opendir+0x3e
              python`posix_listdir+0x6d
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x59ff
              python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x49ff
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
              python`PyEval_EvalCode+0x22
              python`PyRun_FileExFlags+0xaf
              python`PyRun_SimpleFileExFlags+0x156
              python`Py_Main+0xa6b
              python`main+0x17
              python`_start+0x80

  0  42244                   lmalloc:return Ptr=0xcf894000 Size=8192
              libc.so.1`lmalloc+0x143
              libc.so.1`opendir+0x3e
              python`posix_listdir+0x6d
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x59ff
              python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x49ff
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
              python`PyEval_EvalCode+0x22
              python`PyRun_FileExFlags+0xaf
              python`PyRun_SimpleFileExFlags+0x156
              python`Py_Main+0xa6b
              python`main+0x17
              python`_start+0x80

  0  42249                       free:entry Ptr=0x86d78f0
^C
  0  42246                   realloc:return Ptr=0x824c268 Oldptr=0x0 Size=16
              libc.so.1`realloc+0x33a
              python`addcleanup+0x45
              python`convertsimple+0x145d
              python`vgetargs1+0x259
              python`_PyArg_ParseTuple_SizeT+0x1d
              python`posix_listdir+0x55
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x59ff
              python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x49ff
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
              python`PyEval_EvalCode+0x22
              python`PyRun_FileExFlags+0xaf
              python`PyRun_SimpleFileExFlags+0x156
              python`Py_Main+0xa6b
              python`main+0x17
              python`_start+0x80

  0  42249                       free:entry Ptr=0x824c268
  0  42244                   lmalloc:return Ptr=0xcf890300 Size=16
              libc.so.1`lmalloc+0x143
              libc.so.1`opendir+0x3e
              python`posix_listdir+0x6d
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x59ff
              python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x49ff
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
              python`PyEval_EvalCode+0x22
              python`PyRun_FileExFlags+0xaf
              python`PyRun_SimpleFileExFlags+0x156
              python`Py_Main+0xa6b
              python`main+0x17
              python`_start+0x80

  0  42244                   lmalloc:return Ptr=0xcf894000 Size=8192
              libc.so.1`lmalloc+0x143
              libc.so.1`opendir+0x3e
              python`posix_listdir+0x6d
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x59ff
              python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x49ff
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
              python`PyEval_EvalCode+0x22
              python`PyRun_FileExFlags+0xaf
              python`PyRun_SimpleFileExFlags+0x156
              python`Py_Main+0xa6b
              python`main+0x17
              python`_start+0x80

  0  42249                       free:entry Ptr=0x86d78f0




On 7/2/08 10:14 AM, "Barry Warsaw" <barry at list.org> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Jul 2, 2008, at 1:12 PM, Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:
> 
>> I am hopeful our esteemed code maintainers are thinking the built in
>> restart
>> idea is a good one:
> 
> Optionally, yes.  By default, I'm not so sure.
> 
> - -Barry
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)
> 
> iEYEARECAAYFAkhrt4UACgkQ2YZpQepbvXE9kACeLg04R4n22C4X3VInoJaaCqyI
> MdkAoJjgj0qwONIKM425QHh/Glxpo4gm
> =yOaG
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- 
Fletcher Cocquyt
Senior Systems Administrator
Information Resources and Technology (IRT)
Stanford University School of Medicine

Email: fcocquyt at stanford.edu
Phone: (650) 724-7485



From fcocquyt at stanford.edu  Wed Jul  2 23:16:34 2008
From: fcocquyt at stanford.edu (Fletcher Cocquyt)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:16:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours -
 dtrace stack
In-Reply-To: <C49138F8.2035B%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <C4913E42.2036A%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>

Below is the findleaks output from a ~5minute sample of a python runner - I
will take a larger sample to see if this is representative or not:
(again the reference is http://blogs.sun.com/sanjeevb/date/200506 )

Thanks

god at irt-smtp-02:~ 2:10pm 67 # ./findleaks.pl ./ml.out
Ptr=0xcf890340 Size=16
              libc.so.1`lmalloc+0x143
              libc.so.1`opendir+0x3e
              python`posix_listdir+0x6d
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x59ff
              python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x49ff
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
              python`PyEval_EvalCode+0x22
              python`PyRun_FileExFlags+0xaf
              python`PyRun_SimpleFileExFlags+0x156
              python`Py_Main+0xa6b
              python`main+0x17
              python`_start+0x80

---------
Ptr=0xcf894000 Size=8192
              libc.so.1`lmalloc+0x143
              libc.so.1`opendir+0x3e
              python`posix_listdir+0x6d
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x59ff
              python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x49ff
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
              python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
              python`PyEval_EvalCode+0x22
              python`PyRun_FileExFlags+0xaf
              python`PyRun_SimpleFileExFlags+0x156
              python`Py_Main+0xa6b
              python`main+0x17
              python`_start+0x80

---------



On 7/2/08 1:54 PM, "Fletcher Cocquyt" <fcocquyt at stanford.edu> wrote:

> I had a parallel thread on the dtrace list to get memleak.d running
> 
> http://blogs.sun.com/sanjeevb/date/200506
> 
>  - I just got this stack trace from a 10 second sample of the most actively
> growing python mailman process - the output is explained by Sanjeev on his
> blog, but I'm hoping the stack trace will point the analysis towards a cause
> for why my mailman processes are  growing abnormally
> 
> I will see if the findleaks.pl analysis of this output returns anything
> 
> Thanks!
> 
>   0  42246                   realloc:return Ptr=0x824c268 Oldptr=0x0 Size=16
>               libc.so.1`realloc+0x33a
>               python`addcleanup+0x45
>               python`convertsimple+0x145d
>               python`vgetargs1+0x259
>               python`_PyArg_ParseTuple_SizeT+0x1d
>               python`posix_listdir+0x55
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x59ff
>               python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x49ff
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
>               python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
>               python`PyEval_EvalCode+0x22
>               python`PyRun_FileExFlags+0xaf
>               python`PyRun_SimpleFileExFlags+0x156
>               python`Py_Main+0xa6b
>               python`main+0x17
>               python`_start+0x80
> 
>   0  42249                       free:entry Ptr=0x824c268
>   0  42244                   lmalloc:return Ptr=0xcf890300 Size=16
>               libc.so.1`lmalloc+0x143
>               libc.so.1`opendir+0x3e
>               python`posix_listdir+0x6d
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x59ff
>               python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x49ff
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
>               python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
>               python`PyEval_EvalCode+0x22
>               python`PyRun_FileExFlags+0xaf
>               python`PyRun_SimpleFileExFlags+0x156
>               python`Py_Main+0xa6b
>               python`main+0x17
>               python`_start+0x80
> 
>   0  42244                   lmalloc:return Ptr=0xcf894000 Size=8192
>               libc.so.1`lmalloc+0x143
>               libc.so.1`opendir+0x3e
>               python`posix_listdir+0x6d
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x59ff
>               python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x49ff
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
>               python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
>               python`PyEval_EvalCode+0x22
>               python`PyRun_FileExFlags+0xaf
>               python`PyRun_SimpleFileExFlags+0x156
>               python`Py_Main+0xa6b
>               python`main+0x17
>               python`_start+0x80
> 
>   0  42249                       free:entry Ptr=0x86d78f0
> ^C
>   0  42246                   realloc:return Ptr=0x824c268 Oldptr=0x0 Size=16
>               libc.so.1`realloc+0x33a
>               python`addcleanup+0x45
>               python`convertsimple+0x145d
>               python`vgetargs1+0x259
>               python`_PyArg_ParseTuple_SizeT+0x1d
>               python`posix_listdir+0x55
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x59ff
>               python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x49ff
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
>               python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
>               python`PyEval_EvalCode+0x22
>               python`PyRun_FileExFlags+0xaf
>               python`PyRun_SimpleFileExFlags+0x156
>               python`Py_Main+0xa6b
>               python`main+0x17
>               python`_start+0x80
> 
>   0  42249                       free:entry Ptr=0x824c268
>   0  42244                   lmalloc:return Ptr=0xcf890300 Size=16
>               libc.so.1`lmalloc+0x143
>               libc.so.1`opendir+0x3e
>               python`posix_listdir+0x6d
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x59ff
>               python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x49ff
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
>               python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
>               python`PyEval_EvalCode+0x22
>               python`PyRun_FileExFlags+0xaf
>               python`PyRun_SimpleFileExFlags+0x156
>               python`Py_Main+0xa6b
>               python`main+0x17
>               python`_start+0x80
> 
>   0  42244                   lmalloc:return Ptr=0xcf894000 Size=8192
>               libc.so.1`lmalloc+0x143
>               libc.so.1`opendir+0x3e
>               python`posix_listdir+0x6d
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x59ff
>               python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x49ff
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
>               python`PyEval_EvalFrameEx+0x6133
>               python`PyEval_EvalCodeEx+0x57f
>               python`PyEval_EvalCode+0x22
>               python`PyRun_FileExFlags+0xaf
>               python`PyRun_SimpleFileExFlags+0x156
>               python`Py_Main+0xa6b
>               python`main+0x17
>               python`_start+0x80
> 
>   0  42249                       free:entry Ptr=0x86d78f0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/2/08 10:14 AM, "Barry Warsaw" <barry at list.org> wrote:
> 
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>> 
>> On Jul 2, 2008, at 1:12 PM, Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:
>> 
>>> I am hopeful our esteemed code maintainers are thinking the built in
>>> restart
>>> idea is a good one:
>> 
>> Optionally, yes.  By default, I'm not so sure.
>> 
>> - -Barry
>> 
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)
>> 
>> iEYEARECAAYFAkhrt4UACgkQ2YZpQepbvXE9kACeLg04R4n22C4X3VInoJaaCqyI
>> MdkAoJjgj0qwONIKM425QHh/Glxpo4gm
>> =yOaG
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- 
Fletcher Cocquyt
Senior Systems Administrator
Information Resources and Technology (IRT)
Stanford University School of Medicine

Email: fcocquyt at stanford.edu
Phone: (650) 724-7485



From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul  3 01:29:05 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 16:29:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <C491062A.202B2%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070216290505934b603956@msapiro>

Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:

>Interesting, the growth per python is limited to 50M by ulimit -v 50000, but
>I'm seeing each one gradually take up that limit - then what ? (stay tuned!
>- mailman fails to malloc?)


Look in Mailman's error and qrunner logs.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul  3 01:51:30 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 16:51:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Apache and pipermail 403 issues
In-Reply-To: <8bae9e280807020931p42e07c3o3d76e32245a74977@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC187020080702165130056263325b90@msapiro>

Robert Campbell wrote:

>Currently when ever I try to get to the mailman archives for any of the
>mailing lists I revcive a 403 error.
>When I check the apache error log i see the following line:
>
>[Wed Jul 02 10:28:52 2008] [error] [client <some ip>] client denied by
>server configuration: <var-install-location>/archives/public/
>
>The Private folder is owned by what apache runs under.
>
>Also the apache config file has
>
>Alias /pipermail/ <var-install-location>/archives/public/
>
><Directory <var-install-location>
>AllowOverride   All
>Options +FollowSymLinks
>AddDefaultCharset Off


You could try adding here

Order allow,deny
Allow from all


Often, Apache configs are set up to deny access to everything and then
selectively allow the various DocumentRoot directories. Such a
configuration would not allow access to the <var-install-location>
directory.


></Directory>


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From yahoo at jimpop.com  Thu Jul  3 03:02:37 2008
From: yahoo at jimpop.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:02:37 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman group on LinkedIn
In-Reply-To: <486BA337.6030706@hypertrek.info>
References: <486B9D10.6090506@midrange.com> <486BA337.6030706@hypertrek.info>
Message-ID: <7ff145960807021802i7e7515ebja51d444ea9c84b1c@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 11:48 AM, Luigi Rosa <lrosa at hypertrek.info> wrote:
> David Gibbs said the following on 02/07/2008 17.21:
>
>> If you would like to join the group, visit
>> http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/134598/181E8C14C43E.
>
> Good idea! I just joined the group.

And for those on Facebook:  http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=17128034665

-Jim P.

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul  3 05:01:22 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 20:01:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <C490F314.2027B%fcocquyt@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070220012209067ecafba0@msapiro>

Fletcher Cocquyt wrote:
>
>On 7/2/08 8:15 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>
>> At some point in the next day or so, I'm going to make a modified
>> scripts/post script which will queue incoming messages in qfiles/bad
>> and then move them to qfiles/in only if they are under a certain size.
>> I'm really curious to see if that will help.
>
>Yes, having a global incoming maxmessagesize limit and handler (what will
>the sender receive back?) for mailman would be useful.


The attached 'post' file is a modified version of scripts/post.

It does the following compared to the normal script.

The normal script reads the message from the pipe from the MTA and
queues it in the 'in' queue for processing by an IncomingRunner. This
script receives the message and instead queues it in the 'bad' queue.
It then looks at the size of the 'bad' queue entry (a Python pickle
that will be just slightly larger than the message text). If the size
is less than MAXSIZE bytes (a parameter near the beginning of the
script, currently set to 1000000, but which you can change as you
desire), it moves the queue entry from the 'bad' queue to the 'in'
queue for processing.

The end result is queue entries smaller than MAXSIZE will be processed
normally, and entries >= MAXSIZE will be left in the 'bad' queue for
manual examination (with bin/dumpdb or bin/show_qfiles) and either
manual deletion or manual moving to the 'in' queue for processing.

The delivery is accepted by the MTA in either case so the poster sees
nothing unusual.

This is not intended to be used in a normal production environment. It
is only intended as a debug aid to see if IncomingRunners will not
grow so large if incoming message size is limited.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From barry at list.org  Thu Jul  3 05:05:13 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 23:05:13 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008070220012209067ecafba0@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008070220012209067ecafba0@msapiro>
Message-ID: <6F4706BC-84DD-4B38-A3AD-5034FAB9B8F3@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jul 2, 2008, at 11:01 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> The attached 'post' file is a modified version of scripts/post.

Hi Mark, there was no attachment.

> It does the following compared to the normal script.
>
> The normal script reads the message from the pipe from the MTA and
> queues it in the 'in' queue for processing by an IncomingRunner. This
> script receives the message and instead queues it in the 'bad' queue.
> It then looks at the size of the 'bad' queue entry (a Python pickle
> that will be just slightly larger than the message text). If the size
> is less than MAXSIZE bytes (a parameter near the beginning of the
> script, currently set to 1000000, but which you can change as you
> desire), it moves the queue entry from the 'bad' queue to the 'in'
> queue for processing.

I'm not sure 'bad' should be used.  Perhaps a separate queue called  
'raw'?  It is nice that files > MAXSIZE need only be left in 'bad'.

- -Barry

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From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul  3 05:15:31 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 20:15:31 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <6F4706BC-84DD-4B38-A3AD-5034FAB9B8F3@list.org>
References: <PC18702008070220012209067ecafba0@msapiro>
	<6F4706BC-84DD-4B38-A3AD-5034FAB9B8F3@list.org>
Message-ID: <486C4453.9060002@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Barry Warsaw wrote:
| On Jul 2, 2008, at 11:01 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
|
|> The attached 'post' file is a modified version of scripts/post.
|
| Hi Mark, there was no attachment.


Yes, I know. I was just about to resend. It is attached here. The MUA I
used to send the previous message gives any attachment without an
extension Content-Type: application/octet-stream, so the list's content
filtering removed it.


|> It does the following compared to the normal script.
|
|> The normal script reads the message from the pipe from the MTA and
|> queues it in the 'in' queue for processing by an IncomingRunner. This
|> script receives the message and instead queues it in the 'bad' queue.
|> It then looks at the size of the 'bad' queue entry (a Python pickle
|> that will be just slightly larger than the message text). If the size
|> is less than MAXSIZE bytes (a parameter near the beginning of the
|> script, currently set to 1000000, but which you can change as you
|> desire), it moves the queue entry from the 'bad' queue to the 'in'
|> queue for processing.
|
| I'm not sure 'bad' should be used.  Perhaps a separate queue called
| 'raw'?  It is nice that files > MAXSIZE need only be left in 'bad'.


If we're going to do something like this going forward, we can certainly
change the queue. For this 'debug' effort, I wanted to keep it simple
and use an existing mm_cfg queue name.

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From barry at list.org  Thu Jul  3 05:55:32 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 23:55:32 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python process size grows 30x in 8 hours (memory
In-Reply-To: <486C4453.9060002@msapiro.net>
References: <PC18702008070220012209067ecafba0@msapiro>
	<6F4706BC-84DD-4B38-A3AD-5034FAB9B8F3@list.org>
	<486C4453.9060002@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <2B0862A8-C5DA-4236-814D-26EC97C0AFCD@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jul 2, 2008, at 11:15 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Yes, I know. I was just about to resend. It is attached here. The  
> MUA I
> used to send the previous message gives any attachment without an
> extension Content-Type: application/octet-stream, so the list's  
> content
> filtering removed it.

Ah, np.

> |> It does the following compared to the normal script.
> |
> |> The normal script reads the message from the pipe from the MTA and
> |> queues it in the 'in' queue for processing by an IncomingRunner.  
> This
> |> script receives the message and instead queues it in the 'bad'  
> queue.
> |> It then looks at the size of the 'bad' queue entry (a Python pickle
> |> that will be just slightly larger than the message text). If the  
> size
> |> is less than MAXSIZE bytes (a parameter near the beginning of the
> |> script, currently set to 1000000, but which you can change as you
> |> desire), it moves the queue entry from the 'bad' queue to the 'in'
> |> queue for processing.
> |
> | I'm not sure 'bad' should be used.  Perhaps a separate queue called
> | 'raw'?  It is nice that files > MAXSIZE need only be left in 'bad'.
>
>
> If we're going to do something like this going forward, we can  
> certainly
> change the queue. For this 'debug' effort, I wanted to keep it simple
> and use an existing mm_cfg queue name.

Excellent point.  A couple of very minor comments on the file, but  
other than that, it looks great.  (I know you copied this from the  
original file, but still I can't resist. ;)

> # Copyright (C) 1998,1999,2000,2001,2002 by the Free Software  
> Foundation, Inc.

1998-2008

>
> #
> # This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
> # modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
> # as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2
> # of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
> #
> # This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
> # but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
> # MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
> # GNU General Public License for more details.
> #
> # You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
> # along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software
> # Foundation, Inc., 51 Franklin Street, Fifth Floor, Boston, MA  
> 02110-1301, USA.
>
> """Accept posts to a list and handle them properly.
>
> The main advertised address for a list should be filtered to this  
> program,
> through the mail wrapper.  E.g. for list `test at yourdomain.com', the  
> `test'
> alias would deliver to this script.
>
> Stdin is the mail message, and argv[1] is the name of the target  
> mailing list.
>
> """
>
> import os
> import sys
>
> import paths
> from Mailman import mm_cfg
> from Mailman import Utils
> from Mailman.i18n import _
> from Mailman.Queue.sbcache import get_switchboard
> from Mailman.Logging.Utils import LogStdErr
>
> LogStdErr("error", "post")
>
> MAXSIZE = 1000000
>
>
>
> def main():
>    # TBD: If you've configured your list or aliases so poorly as to  
> get
>    # either of these first two errors, there's little that can be  
> done to
>    # save your messages.  They will be lost.  Minimal testing of new  
> lists
>    # should avoid either of these problems.
>    try:
>        listname = sys.argv[1]
>    except IndexError:
>        print >> sys.stderr, _('post script got no listname.')
>        sys.exit(1)
>    # Make sure the list exists
>    if not Utils.list_exists(listname):
>        print >> sys.stderr, _('post script, list not found: % 
> (listname)s')
>        sys.exit(1)
>    # Immediately queue the message for the incoming qrunner to  
> process.  The
>    # advantage to this approach is that messages should never get  
> lost --
>    # some MTAs have a hard limit to the time a filter prog can run.   
> Postfix
>    # is a good example; if the limit is hit, the proc is SIGKILL'd  
> giving us
>    # no chance to save the message.
>    bdq = get_switchboard(mm_cfg.BADQUEUE_DIR)
>    filebase = bdq.enqueue(sys.stdin.read(),
>                           listname=listname,
>                           tolist=1, _plaintext=1)

Should probably use True there instead of 1.

>    frompath= os.path.join(mm_cfg.BADQUEUE_DIR, filebase + '.pck')
>    topath= os.path.join(mm_cfg.INQUEUE_DIR, filebase + '.pck')

Space in front of the =

>
>
>    if os.stat(frompath).st_size < MAXSIZE:
>        os.rename(frompath,topath)

Space after the comma.

>
> if __name__ == '__main__':
>    main()

- -Barry

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From mkabot at soarol.com  Thu Jul  3 05:53:18 2008
From: mkabot at soarol.com (Michael Kabot)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 23:53:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Message,  ReturnPath/ErrorsTo issue
Message-ID: <00af01c8dcc0$56491200$02db3600$@com>

Configuration
- CentOS 5 64 bit
- Mailman 2.1.9
- Qmail with Plesk 8.3 mods

I have an interesting bounce issue occurring.  
- Email is sent to a Mailman List
- List sends to each address
- One of the addresses bounces
- The bounce message ends with the right FROM and TO headers, but the wrong
RETURN-PATH and ERRORS-TO headers.

Is this a Mailman or Qmail issue?

Here is the bounce message 

------------------
Return-Path: <mailman-bounces@[WRONGDOMAIN.COM]>
Received: (qmail 28263 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2008 14:46:36 -0400
Received: from localhost (HELO [MAIL.RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]) (127.0.0.1)
  by localhost with SMTP; 2 Jul 2008 14:46:36 -0400
Return-Path: <>
Delivered-To: [LISTNAME]-bounces@[RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]
Received: (qmail 28252 invoked for bounce); 2 Jul 2008 14:46:34 -0400
Date: 2 Jul 2008 14:46:34 -0400
From: MAILER-DAEMON@[MAIL.RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]
To: [LISTNAME]-bounces@[RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]
Subject: failure notice
Errors-To: mailman-bounces@[WRONGDOMAIN.COM]

Hi. This is the qmail-send program at [MAIL.RIGHTDOMAIN.COM].
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

[BADEMAIL ADDRESS]:
[REMOTEIP] does not like recipient.
Remote host said: 550-5.1.1 The email account that you tried to reach does
not exist. Please
550-5.1.1 try double-checking the recipient's email address for typos
550-5.1.1 or unnecessary spaces. Learn more at                     
550 5.1.1 http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=6596
23si5229629hsd.10 
Giving up on [REMOTEIP].

--- Below this line is a copy of the message.

Return-Path: [LISTNAME]-bounces@[RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]
Received: (qmail 28243 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2008 14:46:34 -0400
Received: from localhost (HELO [MAIL.RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]) (127.0.0.1)
  by localhost with SMTP; 2 Jul 2008 14:46:34 -0400
Return-Path: [SENDEREMAIL]
Delivered-To: [LISTNAME]@[RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]
Received: (qmail 28072 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2008 14:46:32 -0400
Received: [OMMITTED]
Received: [OMMITTED]
Message-ID: [OMMITTED]
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:46:27 -0400
From: [OMMITTED]
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [LISTNAME]@[RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: [members] whiter water trip update
X-BeenThere: [LISTNAME]@[RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Errors-To: [LISTNAME]-bounces@[RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]

[ORIGINAL MESSAGE]

------------------

  
In Service,
 
Michael Kabot
President - SOAR
  Scouting Online
    Affordable & Reliable
mkabot at soarol.com
585-388-0211

www.soarol.com 
 
 


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul  3 06:44:56 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:44:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Message,  ReturnPath/ErrorsTo issue
In-Reply-To: <00af01c8dcc0$56491200$02db3600$@com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807022144560062d1489336@msapiro>

Michael Kabotwrote:

>Configuration
>- CentOS 5 64 bit
>- Mailman 2.1.9
>- Qmail with Plesk 8.3 mods
>
>I have an interesting bounce issue occurring.  
>- Email is sent to a Mailman List
>- List sends to each address
>- One of the addresses bounces
>- The bounce message ends with the right FROM and TO headers, but the wrong
>RETURN-PATH and ERRORS-TO headers.
>
>Is this a Mailman or Qmail issue?
>
>Here is the bounce message 
>
>------------------
>Return-Path: <mailman-bounces@[WRONGDOMAIN.COM]>
>Received: (qmail 28263 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2008 14:46:36 -0400
>Received: from localhost (HELO [MAIL.RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]) (127.0.0.1)
>  by localhost with SMTP; 2 Jul 2008 14:46:36 -0400


It looks like below here up to my next comment are the actual bounce
notice headers with Return-Path: <> indicating a null envelope from
which should be the case for a normal bounce.

The headers above here look like Mailman received this bounce and
resent it to a list owner. When sending to a list owner, Mailman sets
the envelope from the site list (mailman) -bounces address. Is
[WRONGDOMAIN.COM] the domain of the site list?


>Return-Path: <>
>Delivered-To: [LISTNAME]-bounces@[RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]
>Received: (qmail 28252 invoked for bounce); 2 Jul 2008 14:46:34 -0400
>Date: 2 Jul 2008 14:46:34 -0400
>From: MAILER-DAEMON@[MAIL.RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]
>To: [LISTNAME]-bounces@[RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]
>Subject: failure notice


And the header below may have also been added by Mailman in resending.


>Errors-To: mailman-bounces@[WRONGDOMAIN.COM]
>
>Hi. This is the qmail-send program at [MAIL.RIGHTDOMAIN.COM].
>I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
>This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
>
>[BADEMAIL ADDRESS]:
>[REMOTEIP] does not like recipient.
>Remote host said: 550-5.1.1 The email account that you tried to reach does
>not exist. Please
>550-5.1.1 try double-checking the recipient's email address for typos
>550-5.1.1 or unnecessary spaces. Learn more at                     
>550 5.1.1 http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=6596
>23si5229629hsd.10 
>Giving up on [REMOTEIP].
>
>--- Below this line is a copy of the message.
>
>Return-Path: [LISTNAME]-bounces@[RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]
>Received: (qmail 28243 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2008 14:46:34 -0400
>Received: from localhost (HELO [MAIL.RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]) (127.0.0.1)
>  by localhost with SMTP; 2 Jul 2008 14:46:34 -0400
>Return-Path: [SENDEREMAIL]
>Delivered-To: [LISTNAME]@[RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]
>Received: (qmail 28072 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2008 14:46:32 -0400
>Received: [OMMITTED]
>Received: [OMMITTED]
>Message-ID: [OMMITTED]
>Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:46:27 -0400
>From: [OMMITTED]
>User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: [LISTNAME]@[RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Subject: [members] whiter water trip update
>X-BeenThere: [LISTNAME]@[RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]
>X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
>Precedence: list
>Errors-To: [LISTNAME]-bounces@[RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]
>
>[ORIGINAL MESSAGE]
>
>------------------


The thing that's strange in all the above is that Mailman (at least
standard GNU Mailman) doesn't redirect bounces like this. It sends a
totally new message to the list owner with the original bounce
attached.

Also, assuming [BADEMAIL ADDRESS]: in the notice was enclosed in <> as
in <bad at example.com>:, it would not have been an unrecognized bounce
in 2.1.9.

Is this Mailman 2.1.9 installed from our distribution, or is it a Plesk
or other package?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Jul  3 07:36:30 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:36:30 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.11 final has been released.
In-Reply-To: <20080701193004.A37C217554@britaine.cis.anl.gov>
References: <Ralf.Hildebrandt@charite.de>
	<20080701193004.A37C217554@britaine.cis.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <87prpvmsv5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Barry Finkel writes:

 > I have not yet installed my 2.1.11 package on my test machine, but
 > my records show that I had the identical messages when I built my
 > 2.1.9 package, which I use in production.  I am not an expert in the
 > C language and what type conversions are done.  But I would not worry
 > about these messages.  I do not know if the C code can be changed to
 > eliminate these messages.

It is very difficult to safely eliminate these messages.  It's
probably not worth trying.


From nitin.bhadauria at tetrain.com  Thu Jul  3 07:24:26 2008
From: nitin.bhadauria at tetrain.com (Nitin Bhadauria)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:54:26 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Generating list archive from a mbox file
Message-ID: <2038.59.180.67.12.1215062666.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>

Dear All,

I have a list with of 500 user and 20-25 post per day.

My list administrator disable list archiving by mistake from last three
month and now he want them back.

As we know mailman save mails in mbox formate and from that file it
generate archive regularly.

So i take all the mails that we want to upload on the list and save them
in mbox format and generate archive manually with the help of 'bin/arch'.

It dose work it generate archive of those three mount on the list there
are some problem in the archive mail there attachment are not working and
some mails lost there body and some text are unreadable.

Can some help me out if there is another way to figure it out .

Thanks
Nitin





From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Jul  3 07:43:21 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 00:43:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Generating list archive from a mbox file
In-Reply-To: <2038.59.180.67.12.1215062666.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>
References: <2038.59.180.67.12.1215062666.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>
Message-ID: <p06240800c4921708a257@[192.168.1.102]>

On 7/3/08, Nitin Bhadauria wrote:

>  My list administrator disable list archiving by mistake from last three
>  month and now he want them back.
>
>  As we know mailman save mails in mbox formate and from that file it
>  generate archive regularly.

Only if archiving is turned on.  If archiving is turned off, then the 
mbox files are not kept, and no archives are created.

>  So i take all the mails that we want to upload on the list and save them
>  in mbox format and generate archive manually with the help of 'bin/arch'.
>
>  It dose work it generate archive of those three mount on the list there
>  are some problem in the archive mail there attachment are not working and
>  some mails lost there body and some text are unreadable.

That's normal.  When you try to take messages after they've been 
munged and re-build an mbox format "raw" archive to be processed by 
bin/arch, there's going to be some strange problems.  There's just no 
way around that, since the original content has been forever lost.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From nitin.bhadauria at tetrain.com  Thu Jul  3 09:08:29 2008
From: nitin.bhadauria at tetrain.com (Nitin Bhadauria)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 12:38:29 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Generating list archive from a mbox file
In-Reply-To: <p06240800c4921708a257@[192.168.1.102]>
References: <2038.59.180.67.12.1215062666.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>
	<p06240800c4921708a257@[192.168.1.102]>
Message-ID: <2478.59.180.3.119.1215068909.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>

Please don't say that there is no way to get the archive back because i
have to get them any how, even if i need to create whole archive manually.

But i don't want to wast that much of time. That why i am looking for an
other option.


> On 7/3/08, Nitin Bhadauria wrote:
>
>>  My list administrator disable list archiving by mistake from last three
>>  month and now he want them back.
>>
>>  As we know mailman save mails in mbox formate and from that file it
>>  generate archive regularly.
>
> Only if archiving is turned on.  If archiving is turned off, then the
> mbox files are not kept, and no archives are created.
>
>>  So i take all the mails that we want to upload on the list and save
>> them
>>  in mbox format and generate archive manually with the help of
>> 'bin/arch'.
>>
>>  It dose work it generate archive of those three mount on the list there
>>  are some problem in the archive mail there attachment are not working
>> and
>>  some mails lost there body and some text are unreadable.
>
> That's normal.  When you try to take messages after they've been
> munged and re-build an mbox format "raw" archive to be processed by
> bin/arch, there's going to be some strange problems.  There's just no
> way around that, since the original content has been forever lost.
>
> --
> Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
> LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>
>


From b19141 at anl.gov  Thu Jul  3 14:37:49 2008
From: b19141 at anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Thu,  3 Jul 2008 07:37:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.11 final has been released.
In-Reply-To: Mail from '"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org>'
	dated: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:36:30 +0900
Message-ID: <20080703123749.B238C17554@britaine.cis.anl.gov>

Barry Finkel writes:

>> I have not yet installed my 2.1.11 package on my test machine, but
>> my records show that I had the identical messages when I built my
>> 2.1.9 package, which I use in production.  I am not an expert in the
>> C language and what type conversions are done.  But I would not worry
>> about these messages.  I do not know if the C code can be changed to
>> eliminate these messages.

And Stephen J. Turnbull replied:

>It is very difficult to safely eliminate these messages.  It's
>probably not worth trying.

I have not looked at the current documentation.  Are these messages
documented as being harmless?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994


From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Jul  3 16:29:54 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:29:54 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Generating list archive from a mbox file
In-Reply-To: <2478.59.180.3.119.1215068909.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>
References: <2038.59.180.67.12.1215062666.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>
	<p06240800c4921708a257@[192.168.1.102]>
	<2478.59.180.3.119.1215068909.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>
Message-ID: <486CE262.7020501@shub-internet.org>

Nitin Bhadauria wrote:

> Please don't say that there is no way to get the archive back because i
> have to get them any how, even if i need to create whole archive manually.

Sorry, if the archiving function was turned off, then Mailman didn't keep 
any copies of the messages in question and there would be nothing to restore.

> But i don't want to wast that much of time. That why i am looking for an
> other option.

If you can find someone else who has a complete copy of all the messages in 
question, and they can convert that into a 7th edition "mbox" format file, 
the site admin can then import that with bin/arch and restore that part of 
the archive.

Otherwise, I don't think there's any other solution to your problem.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul  3 16:31:39 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 07:31:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Generating list archive from a mbox file
In-Reply-To: <2478.59.180.3.119.1215068909.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070307313903905753cf6d@msapiro>

Nitin Bhadauria wrote:

>Please don't say that there is no way to get the archive back because i
>have to get them any how, even if i need to create whole archive manually.
>
>But i don't want to wast that much of time. That why i am looking for an
>other option.


As Brad said, with list archiving turned off, Mailman doesn't
permanently save the messages anywhere. Mailman doesn't have them,
except for a possible few that might be in
lists/<listname>/digest.mbox awaiting the next digest.

So, first you need to get the messages to be archived. If you are
really lucky, perhaps some list recipient has saved all the lost posts
in a single mailbox/mail folder already.

In any case, you need to get all the messages with as close as possible
to the original headers and mime structure, and get them in a single
*nix mbox format file.

Then, check the From separators and the possible presence of unescaped
From_ lines in message bodies with Mailman's bin/cleanarch. Then,
after you're satisfied you have a good mbox containing all the missing
messages, you can add them to the archive with

  bin/arch listname /path/to/mbox

You should also stop mailman and append the mbox to
archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox so if you ever need to
use that file, it will be complete.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mkabot at soarol.com  Thu Jul  3 16:43:00 2008
From: mkabot at soarol.com (Michael Kabot)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:43:00 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Message,  ReturnPath/ErrorsTo issue
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807022144560062d1489336@msapiro>
References: <00af01c8dcc0$56491200$02db3600$@com>
	<PC1870200807022144560062d1489336@msapiro>
Message-ID: <00eb01c8dd1b$17cb8b10$4762a130$@com>

Mark,

My apologies, I should have noted that 
 - I have Bounce Processing turned off
 - I have the -bounces address forwarding to the -owner address.  With
Bounce Processing off I still needed bounce messages to go back to the list
owner
     |/var/qmail/bin/preline /var/qmail/bin/mm_wrapper
/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman
       owner [LISTNAME]


| -----Original Message-----
| From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark at msapiro.net]
| Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 12:45 AM
| To: mkabot at soarol.com; mailman-users at python.org
| Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Message, ReturnPath/ErrorsTo issue
| 
| Michael Kabotwrote:
| 
| >Configuration
| >- CentOS 5 64 bit
| >- Mailman 2.1.9
| >- Qmail with Plesk 8.3 mods
| >
| >I have an interesting bounce issue occurring.
| >- Email is sent to a Mailman List
| >- List sends to each address
| >- One of the addresses bounces
| >- The bounce message ends with the right FROM and TO headers, but the
| wrong
| >RETURN-PATH and ERRORS-TO headers.
| >
| >Is this a Mailman or Qmail issue?
| >
| >Here is the bounce message
| >
| >------------------
| >Return-Path: <mailman-bounces@[WRONGDOMAIN.COM]>
| >Received: (qmail 28263 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2008 14:46:36 -
| 0400
| >Received: from localhost (HELO [MAIL.RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]) (127.0.0.1)
| >  by localhost with SMTP; 2 Jul 2008 14:46:36 -0400
| 
| 
| It looks like below here up to my next comment are the actual bounce
| notice headers with Return-Path: <> indicating a null envelope from
| which should be the case for a normal bounce.
| 
| The headers above here look like Mailman received this bounce and
| resent it to a list owner. When sending to a list owner, Mailman sets
| the envelope from the site list (mailman) -bounces address. Is
| [WRONGDOMAIN.COM] the domain of the site list?

Neither [RIGHTDOMAIN.COM] or [WRONGDOMAIN.COM] are the domain of the
'mailman' site list.  [WRONGDOMAIN.COM] is coincidentally the last
add_virtualhost line of my config file.

Where in the code are these being added to the -owner address?

| 
| >Return-Path: <>
| >Delivered-To: [LISTNAME]-bounces@[RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]
| >Received: (qmail 28252 invoked for bounce); 2 Jul 2008 14:46:34 -0400
| >Date: 2 Jul 2008 14:46:34 -0400
| >From: MAILER-DAEMON@[MAIL.RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]
| >To: [LISTNAME]-bounces@[RIGHTDOMAIN.COM]
| >Subject: failure notice
| 
| 
| And the header below may have also been added by Mailman in resending.
| 
| 
| >Errors-To: mailman-bounces@[WRONGDOMAIN.COM]
| >
| 
| 
| The thing that's strange in all the above is that Mailman (at least
| standard GNU Mailman) doesn't redirect bounces like this. It sends a
| totally new message to the list owner with the original bounce
| attached.
| 
| Also, assuming [BADEMAIL ADDRESS]: in the notice was enclosed in <> as
| in <bad at example.com>:, it would not have been an unrecognized bounce
| in 2.1.9.
| 
| Is this Mailman 2.1.9 installed from our distribution, or is it a Plesk
| or other package?

I think the modification of -bounces to -owner and Bounce Processing turned
off would explain the format above.


  
In Service,
 
Michael Kabot
President - SOAR
mkabot at soarol.com

 




From brad at python.org  Thu Jul  3 16:52:15 2008
From: brad at python.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:52:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman group on LinkedIn
In-Reply-To: <486B9D10.6090506@midrange.com>
References: <486B9D10.6090506@midrange.com>
Message-ID: <486CE79F.2040104@python.org>

David Gibbs wrote:

> On a lark, I created a Mailman group on LinkedIn.

That's fine for an unofficial group, but did you contact the maintainers of 
the Mailman project to get approval to use the graphic?  I'll stay out of 
that discussion myself, but you should at least get a confirmation from 
Barry Warsaw or someone else in a position of authority on the project that 
it's okay for you to use this graphic.

> If you would like to join the group, visit 
> http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/134598/181E8C14C43E.

The Official Mailman group for LinkedIn is at 
<http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/134678/7C9AFD40B231>.  As far as I'm 
concerned, you're welcome to keep your unofficial group if you like, but 
this one will be maintained by me and others who provide official support 
for the Mailman project.

If we find it necessary, I'll create additional groups for Mailman-users, 
Mailman-developers, etc....

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at python.org>
Member of the Python.org Postmaster Team & Co-Moderator of the
mailman-users and mailman-developers mailing lists

From barry at python.org  Thu Jul  3 17:08:03 2008
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 11:08:03 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman group on LinkedIn
In-Reply-To: <486CE79F.2040104@python.org>
References: <486B9D10.6090506@midrange.com> <486CE79F.2040104@python.org>
Message-ID: <5BD4203A-A1A0-4343-B6E9-CE0714B40513@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jul 3, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Brad Knowles wrote:

> David Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On a lark, I created a Mailman group on LinkedIn.
>
> That's fine for an unofficial group, but did you contact the  
> maintainers of the Mailman project to get approval to use the  
> graphic?  I'll stay out of that discussion myself, but you should at  
> least get a confirmation from Barry Warsaw or someone else in a  
> position of authority on the project that it's okay for you to use  
> this graphic.

Technically I believe the logos are GPLd and owned by the FSF, so as  
long as their use honors the license, it should be allowed.  To the  
extent that my blessing means anything :) I think it's fine as long as  
it's used in a positive spirit to the betterment of the Mailman  
community.

As long as there are useful distinctions between the groups, I think  
it's fine to have more than one.  David's appears to be for folks who  
are administering Mailman lists.

- -Barry

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From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul  3 17:18:01 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 08:18:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Message,  ReturnPath/ErrorsTo issue
In-Reply-To: <00eb01c8dd1b$17cb8b10$4762a130$@com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807030818010671d9acb260@msapiro>

Michael Kabot wrote:
>
>My apologies, I should have noted that 
> - I have Bounce Processing turned off
> - I have the -bounces address forwarding to the -owner address.  With
>Bounce Processing off I still needed bounce messages to go back to the list
>owner
>     |/var/qmail/bin/preline /var/qmail/bin/mm_wrapper
>/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman
>       owner [LISTNAME]

<snip>

>Neither [RIGHTDOMAIN.COM] or [WRONGDOMAIN.COM] are the domain of the
>'mailman' site list.  [WRONGDOMAIN.COM] is coincidentally the last
>add_virtualhost line of my config file.
>
>Where in the code are these being added to the -owner address?


The scripts/owner script which receives mail addressed to -owner sets

   envsender=Utils.get_site_email(extra='bounces')

(this is in Mailman/Utils.py). This in turn gets the domain part of the
address in a complex way (see Utils.get_domain()), but in this case,
it boils down to

  - get DEFAULT_URL_HOST
  - look up the corresponding email host in mm_cfg.VIRTUAL_HOSTS
    (the dictionary built by add_virtualhost())

So it looks like you probably have more that one add_virtualhost()
entry with the same url_host argument (either DEFAULT_URL_HOST or its
literal value.

This doesn't work. VIRTUAL_HOSTS is a Python dictionary (hash table)
with key = the first add_virtualhost() argument and value = the second.

So, if you have something equivalent to

add_virtualhost('www.example.com', 'example.com')
add_virtualhost('www.example.com', 'example.net')

the second entry replaces the first.

All url_hosts and all email hosts in

add_virtualhost(url_host, email_host)

lines need to be unique for it to work as intended.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From bergenpeak at comcast.net  Thu Jul  3 17:30:30 2008
From: bergenpeak at comcast.net (bergenpeak at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:30:30 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman stats
In-Reply-To: <4845838B.4040605@evangelizacion.org.mx>
References: <4845838B.4040605@evangelizacion.org.mx>
Message-ID: <486CF096.602@comcast.net>

Sort of related question-- is there a page (pages) that mailman 
maintains which shows the number of mails received/send over the last N 
days (maybe a nice graph showing the mail volume)?

Thanks


Jes?s Rivas wrote:
> Hi, i'm performing some tests with Mailman and Postfix over Centos5.
> Does some body know how many messages per hour can be sent?
> I?ll appreciate if some one could tell me  what  hardware and bandwith 
> are using and your stats?
> What do I need to improve it?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Jesus Alonso Rivas
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/bergenpeak%40comcast.net 
>
>
> Security Policy: 
> http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>


From thomas.kappler at isb-sib.ch  Thu Jul  3 17:24:08 2008
From: thomas.kappler at isb-sib.ch (Thomas Kappler)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:24:08 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Confirmation-less subscription: avoiding "results
	of your email	commands" mail
Message-ID: <1215098648.1622.81.camel@lin-014>

Hello list,

I'm another one in the long row of people striving for confirmation-less
subscription. I've read the FAQ and am aware that mailman is not a CRM,
and we'd be totally content with it if subscribing would work without
requiring any actions by our users.

We have set ALLOW_OPEN_SUBSCRIBE and confirmation: none, and now the
problem is the "The results of your email commands" mail. I've found the
advice here:
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/msg44391.html
but the result of the modification is just that the "results..." mail
changes to saying "No commands were found in this message.".

We run mailman 2.1.9.

Any updated advice on how to avoid the mail altogether?

Thanks,
Thomas Kappler




From brad at python.org  Thu Jul  3 17:34:11 2008
From: brad at python.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:34:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman stats
In-Reply-To: <486CF096.602@comcast.net>
References: <4845838B.4040605@evangelizacion.org.mx> <486CF096.602@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <486CF173.2030604@python.org>

bergenpeak at comcast.net wrote:

> Sort of related question-- is there a page (pages) that mailman 
> maintains which shows the number of mails received/send over the last N 
> days (maybe a nice graph showing the mail volume)?

Not really.  See Mailman FAQ 1.30 at <http://wiki.list.org/x/1oA9>.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at python.org>
Member of the Python.org Postmaster Team & Co-Moderator of the
mailman-users and mailman-developers mailing lists

From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Jul  3 17:36:37 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:36:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman stats
In-Reply-To: <4845838B.4040605@evangelizacion.org.mx>
References: <4845838B.4040605@evangelizacion.org.mx>
Message-ID: <486CF205.4080703@shub-internet.org>

Jes?s Rivas wrote:

> Hi, i'm performing some tests with Mailman and Postfix over Centos5.
> Does some body know how many messages per hour can be sent?
> I?ll appreciate if some one could tell me  what  hardware and bandwith 
> are using and your stats?
> What do I need to improve it?

Go to the Mailman FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3> and search for 
"performance".  Also pay attention to FAQ 1.15 at <http://wiki.list.org/x/NoA9>.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Jul  3 17:40:24 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:40:24 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Confirmation-less subscription: avoiding
 "results of your email	commands" mail
In-Reply-To: <1215098648.1622.81.camel@lin-014>
References: <1215098648.1622.81.camel@lin-014>
Message-ID: <486CF2E8.9020007@shub-internet.org>

Thomas Kappler wrote:

> I'm another one in the long row of people striving for confirmation-less
> subscription.

We don't want to make this process too easy.  That would make it trivial to 
abuse Mailman into a spamming tool, and I think that's something we actively 
want to avoid.

>                I've read the FAQ and am aware that mailman is not a CRM,
> and we'd be totally content with it if subscribing would work without
> requiring any actions by our users.

You can always use the "mass subscribe" feature, and just subscribe the 
users without inviting them.  Of course, then you are getting a lot closer 
to that line where you're spamming those people as opposed to doing a proper 
double-opt-in mailing list.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From david at midrange.com  Thu Jul  3 17:40:17 2008
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:40:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman group on LinkedIn
In-Reply-To: <486CE79F.2040104@python.org>
References: <486B9D10.6090506@midrange.com> <486CE79F.2040104@python.org>
Message-ID: <486CF2E1.2030704@midrange.com>

Brad Knowles wrote:
> That's fine for an unofficial group, but did you contact the maintainers 
> of the Mailman project to get approval to use the graphic?  

Well, I didn't specifically ask permission ... but I kind of assumed 
that, since Mailman is GPL, the logo fell under the same license.

> The Official Mailman group for LinkedIn is at 
> <http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/134678/7C9AFD40B231>.  As far as I'm 
> concerned, you're welcome to keep your unofficial group if you like, but 
> this one will be maintained by me and others who provide official 
> support for the Mailman project.

If I knew the group existed, I would not have created mine.  LinkedIn 
really needs to get their act together and create a group directory or 
search function.

I assumed that such a group did not exist because I found Barry's 
profile on LinkedIn and didn't see such a group reference on his profile.

david

From barry at python.org  Thu Jul  3 17:47:25 2008
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 11:47:25 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman group on LinkedIn
In-Reply-To: <486CF2E1.2030704@midrange.com>
References: <486B9D10.6090506@midrange.com> <486CE79F.2040104@python.org>
	<486CF2E1.2030704@midrange.com>
Message-ID: <334F29E8-2DD3-4841-AB3B-009E38158FCD@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jul 3, 2008, at 11:40 AM, David Gibbs wrote:

> Brad Knowles wrote:
>> That's fine for an unofficial group, but did you contact the  
>> maintainers of the Mailman project to get approval to use the  
>> graphic?
>
> Well, I didn't specifically ask permission ... but I kind of assumed  
> that, since Mailman is GPL, the logo fell under the same license.

It is.  The FSF owns it.

>> The Official Mailman group for LinkedIn is at <http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/134678/7C9AFD40B231 
>> >.  As far as I'm concerned, you're welcome to keep your unofficial  
>> group if you like, but this one will be maintained by me and others  
>> who provide official support for the Mailman project.
>
> If I knew the group existed, I would not have created mine.   
> LinkedIn really needs to get their act together and create a group  
> directory or search function.
>
> I assumed that such a group did not exist because I found Barry's  
> profile on LinkedIn and didn't see such a group reference on his  
> profile.

I don't know, I'm one of those near-dinosaurs that kind of  
participates in social networks when hit in the face by them, but  
otherwise to paraphrase a wise man: I fear change. :)

- -Barry

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From bergenpeak at comcast.net  Thu Jul  3 17:50:00 2008
From: bergenpeak at comcast.net (bergenpeak at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:50:00 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] multiple domains
Message-ID: <486CF528.2060600@comcast.net>


I'm running mailman on a server that has an existing domain 
(abc.domain.com) and resolves to some IP address X.   Couple of 100 
lists running in this setup.

I've recently gotten another DNS entry defined (xyz.domain.com) that 
also resolves to IP address X.

I'd like to setup new mailman lists to use the new domain--  
mmlist1 at xyz.domain.com.  What do I need to change to support this?  Note 
that I'd like the existing mailman lists in the near-term to continue to 
use there existing "abc.domain.com" domain.

Now, once mailman supports new lists in the new domain, I might want to 
convert all exiting mailman lists to use the new domain.  Is this 
easy/straightforward?  I'd like the archives to be maintained as well 
during this conversion process.

Thanks

From mkabot at soarol.com  Thu Jul  3 18:22:23 2008
From: mkabot at soarol.com (Michael Kabot)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 12:22:23 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Message,  ReturnPath/ErrorsTo issue
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807030818010671d9acb260@msapiro>
References: <00eb01c8dd1b$17cb8b10$4762a130$@com>
	<PC1870200807030818010671d9acb260@msapiro>
Message-ID: <003f01c8dd28$f9f9d7f0$eded87d0$@com>

(To the list this time !)

Mark,

Thanks for the quick response and pointers to the right place in the code.

I have left Plesk managing the Mailman lists to try to keep continuity on my
server.  It looks like Plesk is not doing a good job of properly configuring
Mailman or the lists.

The following is an excerpt from my mm_cfg.py

	from socket import *
	try:
 	   fqdn = getfqdn()
	except:
 	   fqdn = 'mm_cfg_has_unknown_host_domains'

	DEFAULT_URL_HOST   = fqdn
	DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = fqdn

	add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

	add_virtualhost('lists.[DOMAIN1.COM]')
	add_virtualhost('lists.[DOMAIN2.COM]')
      [ADDITIONAL LINES FOR EACH OF THE HUNDREDS OF DOMAINS I HOST]

If there is no 2nd parameter to add_virtualhost, will it create one from the
1st parameter?  I checked, there are no duplicate add_virtualhost lines.

It looks like getfqdn() is where the WRONGDOMAIN.COM is coming from.

Either way, I would rather have a bounced bounce message go
postmaster@[SERVER.COM] than a domain specific email address or the
mailman-bounces address.  Looks like I can "affect" that in the owner code
given my Mailman configuration.

Thank you for your assistance !

Mike


| -----Original Message-----
| From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark at msapiro.net]
| Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 11:18 AM
| To: mkabot at soarol.com; mailman-users at python.org
| Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Message, ReturnPath/ErrorsTo issue
| 
| Michael Kabot wrote:
| >
| >My apologies, I should have noted that
| > - I have Bounce Processing turned off
| > - I have the -bounces address forwarding to the -owner address.  With
| >Bounce Processing off I still needed bounce messages to go back to the
| list
| >owner
| >     |/var/qmail/bin/preline /var/qmail/bin/mm_wrapper
| >/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman
| >       owner [LISTNAME]
| 
| <snip>
| 
| >Neither [RIGHTDOMAIN.COM] or [WRONGDOMAIN.COM] are the domain of the
| >'mailman' site list.  [WRONGDOMAIN.COM] is coincidentally the last
| >add_virtualhost line of my config file.
| >
| >Where in the code are these being added to the -owner address?
| 
| 
| The scripts/owner script which receives mail addressed to -owner sets
| 
|    envsender=Utils.get_site_email(extra='bounces')
| 
| (this is in Mailman/Utils.py). This in turn gets the domain part of the
| address in a complex way (see Utils.get_domain()), but in this case,
| it boils down to
| 
|   - get DEFAULT_URL_HOST
|   - look up the corresponding email host in mm_cfg.VIRTUAL_HOSTS
|     (the dictionary built by add_virtualhost())
| 
| So it looks like you probably have more that one add_virtualhost()
| entry with the same url_host argument (either DEFAULT_URL_HOST or its
| literal value.
| 
| This doesn't work. VIRTUAL_HOSTS is a Python dictionary (hash table)
| with key = the first add_virtualhost() argument and value = the second.
| 
| So, if you have something equivalent to
| 
| add_virtualhost('www.example.com', 'example.com')
| add_virtualhost('www.example.com', 'example.net')
| 
| the second entry replaces the first.
| 
| All url_hosts and all email hosts in
| 
| add_virtualhost(url_host, email_host)
| 
| lines need to be unique for it to work as intended.
| 
| --
| Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
| San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul  3 18:55:47 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 09:55:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Message,  ReturnPath/ErrorsTo issue
In-Reply-To: <003f01c8dd28$f9f9d7f0$eded87d0$@com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807030955470234f8193399@msapiro>

Michael Kabot wrote:
>
>I have left Plesk managing the Mailman lists to try to keep continuity on my
>server.  It looks like Plesk is not doing a good job of properly configuring
>Mailman or the lists.
>
>The following is an excerpt from my mm_cfg.py
>
>	from socket import *
>	try:
> 	   fqdn = getfqdn()
>	except:
> 	   fqdn = 'mm_cfg_has_unknown_host_domains'
>
>	DEFAULT_URL_HOST   = fqdn
>	DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = fqdn
>
>	add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
>
>	add_virtualhost('lists.[DOMAIN1.COM]')
>	add_virtualhost('lists.[DOMAIN2.COM]')
>      [ADDITIONAL LINES FOR EACH OF THE HUNDREDS OF DOMAINS I HOST]
>
>If there is no 2nd parameter to add_virtualhost, will it create one from the
>1st parameter?


Yes. add_virtualhost('xxx.somedomain') is equivalent to
add_virtualhost('xxx.somedomain', 'somedomain').


>It looks like getfqdn() is where the WRONGDOMAIN.COM is coming from.


It looks that way. See <http://docs.python.org/lib/module-socket.html>.


>Either way, I would rather have a bounced bounce message go
>postmaster@[SERVER.COM] than a domain specific email address or the
>mailman-bounces address.  Looks like I can "affect" that in the owner code
>given my Mailman configuration.


You can set that in the scripts/owner script for messages sent directly
to or via the -owner address. This will get some but not all owner
notifications. To get the rest, you also have to look at
Mailman/Message.py. In the definition of the OwnerNotification()
class's __init__ method there is

        sender = Utils.get_site_email(mlist.host_name, 'bounces')

which set's the sender similarly to the way the owner script does
except it usees the list's host_name attribute as the domain of the
mailman-bounces address.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mkabot at soarol.com  Thu Jul  3 19:05:00 2008
From: mkabot at soarol.com (Michael Kabot)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 13:05:00 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Message,  ReturnPath/ErrorsTo issue
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807030955470234f8193399@msapiro>
References: <003f01c8dd28$f9f9d7f0$eded87d0$@com>
	<PC1870200807030955470234f8193399@msapiro>
Message-ID: <006101c8dd2e$eff9aa90$cfecffb0$@com>

Mark,

The modification to scripts/owner will do the trick for me.

I have owner notifications turned off on all lists, so no need to modify
Message.py.

Thank again for the assistance.

Mike

| -----Original Message-----
| From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark at msapiro.net]
| Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 12:56 PM
| To: mkabot at soarol.com; mailman-users at python.org
| Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Message, ReturnPath/ErrorsTo issue
| 
| Michael Kabot wrote:
| >
| >I have left Plesk managing the Mailman lists to try to keep continuity
| on my
| >server.  It looks like Plesk is not doing a good job of properly
| configuring
| >Mailman or the lists.
| >
| >The following is an excerpt from my mm_cfg.py
| >
| >	from socket import *
| >	try:
| > 	   fqdn = getfqdn()
| >	except:
| > 	   fqdn = 'mm_cfg_has_unknown_host_domains'
| >
| >	DEFAULT_URL_HOST   = fqdn
| >	DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = fqdn
| >
| >	add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
| >
| >	add_virtualhost('lists.[DOMAIN1.COM]')
| >	add_virtualhost('lists.[DOMAIN2.COM]')
| >      [ADDITIONAL LINES FOR EACH OF THE HUNDREDS OF DOMAINS I HOST]
| >
| >If there is no 2nd parameter to add_virtualhost, will it create one
| from the
| >1st parameter?
| 
| 
| Yes. add_virtualhost('xxx.somedomain') is equivalent to
| add_virtualhost('xxx.somedomain', 'somedomain').
| 
| 
| >It looks like getfqdn() is where the WRONGDOMAIN.COM is coming from.
| 
| 
| It looks that way. See <http://docs.python.org/lib/module-socket.html>.
| 
| 
| >Either way, I would rather have a bounced bounce message go
| >postmaster@[SERVER.COM] than a domain specific email address or the
| >mailman-bounces address.  Looks like I can "affect" that in the owner
| code
| >given my Mailman configuration.
| 
| 
| You can set that in the scripts/owner script for messages sent directly
| to or via the -owner address. This will get some but not all owner
| notifications. To get the rest, you also have to look at
| Mailman/Message.py. In the definition of the OwnerNotification()
| class's __init__ method there is
| 
|         sender = Utils.get_site_email(mlist.host_name, 'bounces')
| 
| which set's the sender similarly to the way the owner script does
| except it usees the list's host_name attribute as the domain of the
| mailman-bounces address.
| 
| --
| Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
| San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From rcampbel at eng.utoledo.edu  Thu Jul  3 19:07:06 2008
From: rcampbel at eng.utoledo.edu (Robert Campbell)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 13:07:06 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Apache and pipermail 403 issues
In-Reply-To: <PC187020080702165130056263325b90@msapiro>
References: <8bae9e280807020931p42e07c3o3d76e32245a74977@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC187020080702165130056263325b90@msapiro>
Message-ID: <8bae9e280807031007k4d5f21aeudde1f28c49550bee@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Mark that worked perfectly.

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 7:51 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> Robert Campbell wrote:
>
> >Currently when ever I try to get to the mailman archives for any of the
> >mailing lists I revcive a 403 error.
> >When I check the apache error log i see the following line:
> >
> >[Wed Jul 02 10:28:52 2008] [error] [client <some ip>] client denied by
> >server configuration: <var-install-location>/archives/public/
> >
> >The Private folder is owned by what apache runs under.
> >
> >Also the apache config file has
> >
> >Alias /pipermail/ <var-install-location>/archives/public/
> >
> ><Directory <var-install-location>
> >AllowOverride   All
> >Options +FollowSymLinks
> >AddDefaultCharset Off
>
>
> You could try adding here
>
> Order allow,deny
> Allow from all
>
>
> Often, Apache configs are set up to deny access to everything and then
> selectively allow the various DocumentRoot directories. Such a
> configuration would not allow access to the <var-install-location>
> directory.
>
>
> ></Directory>
>
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>

From terri at zone12.com  Thu Jul  3 19:11:33 2008
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 13:11:33 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] multiple domains
In-Reply-To: <486CF528.2060600@comcast.net>
References: <486CF528.2060600@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3C9B7E21-2759-497D-A9B7-F3D1E1B5B436@zone12.com>

If you just want to change the default for new lists, you'll want to  
change mm_cfg.py so that DEFAULTURLHOST and DEFAULTEMAILHOST use the  
new domain.  This will only have an effect on new lists.

When converting old lists, you'll need to change the values of those  
variables for each list you want to change.  The archives will be  
untouched by this action.

On 3-Jul-08, at 11:50 AM, bergenpeak at comcast.net wrote:

>
> I'm running mailman on a server that has an existing domain  
> (abc.domain.com) and resolves to some IP address X.   Couple of 100  
> lists running in this setup.
>
> I've recently gotten another DNS entry defined (xyz.domain.com)  
> that also resolves to IP address X.
>
> I'd like to setup new mailman lists to use the new domain--   
> mmlist1 at xyz.domain.com.  What do I need to change to support this?   
> Note that I'd like the existing mailman lists in the near-term to  
> continue to use there existing "abc.domain.com" domain.
>
> Now, once mailman supports new lists in the new domain, I might  
> want to convert all exiting mailman lists to use the new domain.   
> Is this easy/straightforward?  I'd like the archives to be  
> maintained as well during this conversion process.
>
> Thanks
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users% 
> 40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/ 
> terri%40zone12.com
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul  3 21:27:01 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 12:27:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] multiple domains
In-Reply-To: <3C9B7E21-2759-497D-A9B7-F3D1E1B5B436@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070312270107340a36f09f@msapiro>

Terri Oda wrote:

>If you just want to change the default for new lists, you'll want to  
>change mm_cfg.py so that DEFAULTURLHOST and DEFAULTEMAILHOST use the  
>new domain.  This will only have an effect on new lists.
>
>When converting old lists, you'll need to change the values of those  
>variables for each list you want to change.  The archives will be  
>untouched by this action.


See FAQ 4.29 at <http://wiki.list.org/x/gIA9> for more detail.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul  3 21:53:08 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 12:53:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Confirmation-less subscription: avoiding
	"resultsof your email	commands" mail
In-Reply-To: <1215098648.1622.81.camel@lin-014>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070312530802030a36ee93@msapiro>

Thomas Kappler wrote:
>
>We have set ALLOW_OPEN_SUBSCRIBE and confirmation: none, and now the
>problem is the "The results of your email commands" mail. I've found the
>advice here:
>http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/msg44391.html
>but the result of the modification is just that the "results..." mail
>changes to saying "No commands were found in this message.".
>
>We run mailman 2.1.9.
>
>Any updated advice on how to avoid the mail altogether?


The advice in the referenced post to modify the code in
Mailman/Commands/cmd_subscribe.py by changing the code at the very end
of the module from

    else:
        # Everything is a-ok
        res.results.append(_('Subscription request succeeded.'))

to

    else:
        # Everything is a-ok
        res.respond = 0

works and does what you want.

If you got a "No commands were found in this message.", you most likely
sent a blank message to the list-request address. You can subscribe by
sending a blank message to list-subscribe or to list-join, but if you
mail to list-request, the message must include a subscribe command in
the subject or body.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From nitin.bhadauria at tetrain.com  Fri Jul  4 06:57:16 2008
From: nitin.bhadauria at tetrain.com (Nitin Bhadauria)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:27:16 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Generating list archive from a mbox file
In-Reply-To: <486CE262.7020501@shub-internet.org>
References: <2038.59.180.67.12.1215062666.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>
	<p06240800c4921708a257@[192.168.1.102]>
	<2478.59.180.3.119.1215068909.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>
	<486CE262.7020501@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <1746.59.180.117.60.1215147436.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>

Thanks Brad Knowles

and yes i do have all the mail in my mail client which i have to upload
but i don't can i make a perfect "mbox" file from mails.

Any suggestion.....



> Nitin Bhadauria wrote:
>
>> Please don't say that there is no way to get the archive back because i
>> have to get them any how, even if i need to create whole archive
>> manually.
>
> Sorry, if the archiving function was turned off, then Mailman didn't keep
> any copies of the messages in question and there would be nothing to
> restore.
>
>> But i don't want to wast that much of time. That why i am looking for an
>> other option.
>
> If you can find someone else who has a complete copy of all the messages
> in
> question, and they can convert that into a 7th edition "mbox" format file,
> the site admin can then import that with bin/arch and restore that part of
> the archive.
>
> Otherwise, I don't think there's any other solution to your problem.
>
> --
> Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
> LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>
>


From nitin.bhadauria at tetrain.com  Fri Jul  4 07:05:47 2008
From: nitin.bhadauria at tetrain.com (Nitin Bhadauria)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:35:47 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Generating list archive from a mbox file
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008070307313903905753cf6d@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008070307313903905753cf6d@msapiro>
Message-ID: <1761.59.180.117.60.1215147947.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>

Thanks Mark

I know we can find the mail in the digest folder but I lost mail of last
three month so i can't find them in the digest.

But if u can help me out to making a mbox file from the mails stored in my
mail client.




> Nitin Bhadauria wrote:
>
>>Please don't say that there is no way to get the archive back because i
>>have to get them any how, even if i need to create whole archive
>> manually.
>>
>>But i don't want to wast that much of time. That why i am looking for an
>>other option.
>
>
> As Brad said, with list archiving turned off, Mailman doesn't
> permanently save the messages anywhere. Mailman doesn't have them,
> except for a possible few that might be in
> lists/<listname>/digest.mbox awaiting the next digest.
>
> So, first you need to get the messages to be archived. If you are
> really lucky, perhaps some list recipient has saved all the lost posts
> in a single mailbox/mail folder already.
>
> In any case, you need to get all the messages with as close as possible
> to the original headers and mime structure, and get them in a single
> *nix mbox format file.
>
> Then, check the From separators and the possible presence of unescaped
> From_ lines in message bodies with Mailman's bin/cleanarch. Then,
> after you're satisfied you have a good mbox containing all the missing
> messages, you can add them to the archive with
>
>   bin/arch listname /path/to/mbox
>
> You should also stop mailman and append the mbox to
> archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox so if you ever need to
> use that file, it will be complete.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>


From brad at shub-internet.org  Fri Jul  4 07:11:38 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 00:11:38 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Generating list archive from a mbox file
In-Reply-To: <1746.59.180.117.60.1215147436.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>
References: <2038.59.180.67.12.1215062666.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>   
	<p06240800c4921708a257@[192.168.1.102]>   
	<2478.59.180.3.119.1215068909.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>   
	<486CE262.7020501@shub-internet.org>
	<1746.59.180.117.60.1215147436.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>
Message-ID: <p06240800c49361440913@[192.168.1.102]>

On 7/4/08, Nitin Bhadauria wrote:

>  and yes i do have all the mail in my mail client which i have to upload
>  but i don't can i make a perfect "mbox" file from mails.
>
>  Any suggestion.....

Some mail clients can export their internal mail folder 
representation into a 7th edition mbox format.  For others, there may 
be third party tools that can do that conversion for you.

However, this would be something specific to your mail client and not 
something that we can help you with.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Fri Jul  4 07:36:55 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 00:36:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Generating list archive from a mbox file
In-Reply-To: <1761.59.180.117.60.1215147947.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>
References: <PC18702008070307313903905753cf6d@msapiro>
	<1761.59.180.117.60.1215147947.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>
Message-ID: <p06240804c49367497260@[192.168.1.102]>

On 7/4/08, Nitin Bhadauria wrote:

>  But if u can help me out to making a mbox file from the mails stored in my
>  mail client.

That's a problem specific to your mail client, and there's nothing we 
can do to help you with that.  You need to go find mailing lists or 
other resources to help you answer questions regarding your mail 
client.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From bijayant4u at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  4 07:53:40 2008
From: bijayant4u at yahoo.com (bijayant kumar)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 22:53:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman post requires approval(Receiving 100 mails
	daily)
Message-ID: <755881.66087.qm@web32708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi,

I am facing very strange situation. I am using Mailman on centos machine. It was running fine from few months. Suddenly my users complaints that they are not receiving mails on the list. I just restarted the mailman service, and suddenly they received 1 months old mails. I did not understand the reason. Why the mails has not been delivered earlier though mailman service was running. Why the mails stucked? Now how to tackle this situation, should i have to restart mailman once daily?

One more problem i am facing. Whenever i am restarting mailman i am getting 100 mails From default list "Mailman" stating 
Mailman post requires approval

Subject: Cron <mailman at server> mailman /var/mailman/cron/gate_news
Reason:  Post by non-member to a members-only list

/bin/sh: line 1: mailman: command not found

I have turned off the moderation bit and deleted all these mails also. But whenever i am restarting the mailman service, i am getting 100 of such mails.
How to avoid getting these mails. Can i delete these notifications.
Please help me, i am in very tough situation.

Bijayant Kumar

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 

From maickel.pandie at gmail.com  Fri Jul  4 11:11:50 2008
From: maickel.pandie at gmail.com (Maickel Pandie)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 16:11:50 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Size attachment limit on messages sent to maillist
Message-ID: <6a215fbe0807040211w43675cco1b2998624c533ab7@mail.gmail.com>

hi friend

I have some problem here...
I want to increase the limit of attachment file size...
What should I do???

I already try to increase "General Options -> max_message_size" until
20 MB and still when I sent email with attachment size 8 MB nothing
happen and this what I got from log file


Jul  4 14:50:26 abc postfix/cleanup[3205]: ECAE21643BF:
message-id=<20080704075026.ECAE21643BF at abc.abc.com>
Jul  4 14:50:27 abc postfix/smtpd[2816]: warning: ECAE21643BF: queue
file size limit exceeded

From z.szalbot at lc-words.com  Fri Jul  4 11:15:41 2008
From: z.szalbot at lc-words.com (Zbigniew Szalbot)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 11:15:41 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Size attachment limit on messages sent to
	maillist
In-Reply-To: <6a215fbe0807040211w43675cco1b2998624c533ab7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a215fbe0807040211w43675cco1b2998624c533ab7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <486DEA3D.5040207@lc-words.com>

Hello,

> Jul  4 14:50:26 abc postfix/cleanup[3205]: ECAE21643BF:
> message-id=<20080704075026.ECAE21643BF at abc.abc.com>
> Jul  4 14:50:27 abc postfix/smtpd[2816]: warning: ECAE21643BF: queue
> file size limit exceeded

The message is quite clear. Fix the problem in Postfix by increasing the 
max message size.

-- 
Zbigniew Szalbot
www.LCWords.com

From maickel.pandie at gmail.com  Fri Jul  4 11:19:38 2008
From: maickel.pandie at gmail.com (Maickel Pandie)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 16:19:38 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Size attachment limit on messages sent to
	maillist
In-Reply-To: <486DEA3D.5040207@lc-words.com>
References: <6a215fbe0807040211w43675cco1b2998624c533ab7@mail.gmail.com>
	<486DEA3D.5040207@lc-words.com>
Message-ID: <6a215fbe0807040219m2eef75e6xd4654c5c301369b@mail.gmail.com>

How can I do that...

What file Should I edit??

2008/7/4, Zbigniew Szalbot <z.szalbot at lc-words.com>:
> Hello,
>
>> Jul  4 14:50:26 abc postfix/cleanup[3205]: ECAE21643BF:
>> message-id=<20080704075026.ECAE21643BF at abc.abc.com>
>> Jul  4 14:50:27 abc postfix/smtpd[2816]: warning: ECAE21643BF: queue
>> file size limit exceeded
>
> The message is quite clear. Fix the problem in Postfix by increasing the
> max message size.
>
> --
> Zbigniew Szalbot
> www.LCWords.com
>

From z.szalbot at lc-words.com  Fri Jul  4 11:24:37 2008
From: z.szalbot at lc-words.com (Zbigniew Szalbot)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 11:24:37 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Size attachment limit on messages sent to
	maillist
In-Reply-To: <6a215fbe0807040219m2eef75e6xd4654c5c301369b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a215fbe0807040211w43675cco1b2998624c533ab7@mail.gmail.com>	
	<486DEA3D.5040207@lc-words.com>
	<6a215fbe0807040219m2eef75e6xd4654c5c301369b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <486DEC55.90901@lc-words.com>

Hello,

Maickel Pandie:
> How can I do that...
> 
> What file Should I edit??

http://www.postfix.org/postconf.5.html

message_size_limit (default: 10240000)

You set it in main.cf.

> 
> 2008/7/4, Zbigniew Szalbot <z.szalbot at lc-words.com>:
>> Hello,
>>
>>> Jul  4 14:50:26 abc postfix/cleanup[3205]: ECAE21643BF:
>>> message-id=<20080704075026.ECAE21643BF at abc.abc.com>
>>> Jul  4 14:50:27 abc postfix/smtpd[2816]: warning: ECAE21643BF: queue
>>> file size limit exceeded
>> The message is quite clear. Fix the problem in Postfix by increasing the
>> max message size.
>>
>> --
>> Zbigniew Szalbot
>> www.LCWords.com
>>

-- 
Zbigniew Szalbot
www.LCWords.com

From maickel.pandie at gmail.com  Fri Jul  4 11:26:29 2008
From: maickel.pandie at gmail.com (Maickel Pandie)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 16:26:29 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Size attachment limit on messages sent to
	maillist
In-Reply-To: <486DEC55.90901@lc-words.com>
References: <6a215fbe0807040211w43675cco1b2998624c533ab7@mail.gmail.com>
	<486DEA3D.5040207@lc-words.com>
	<6a215fbe0807040219m2eef75e6xd4654c5c301369b@mail.gmail.com>
	<486DEC55.90901@lc-words.com>
Message-ID: <6a215fbe0807040226x13c3f60fm6f27fcd014abef4@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you very much....

I will try it first

2008/7/4, Zbigniew Szalbot <z.szalbot at lc-words.com>:
> Hello,
>
> Maickel Pandie:
>> How can I do that...
>>
>> What file Should I edit??
>
> http://www.postfix.org/postconf.5.html
>
> message_size_limit (default: 10240000)
>
> You set it in main.cf.
>
>>
>> 2008/7/4, Zbigniew Szalbot <z.szalbot at lc-words.com>:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>> Jul  4 14:50:26 abc postfix/cleanup[3205]: ECAE21643BF:
>>>> message-id=<20080704075026.ECAE21643BF at abc.abc.com>
>>>> Jul  4 14:50:27 abc postfix/smtpd[2816]: warning: ECAE21643BF: queue
>>>> file size limit exceeded
>>> The message is quite clear. Fix the problem in Postfix by increasing the
>>> max message size.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Zbigniew Szalbot
>>> www.LCWords.com
>>>
>
> --
> Zbigniew Szalbot
> www.LCWords.com
>

From t.d.lee at durham.ac.uk  Fri Jul  4 13:31:13 2008
From: t.d.lee at durham.ac.uk (David Lee)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:31:13 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] load-balance 2.1.x
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0807041205160.14066@arachne.dur.ac.uk>


(This is in relation to 2.0.9, but I would probably move to 2.1.11.)

I've been reading FAQ 4.75 ("How do I set up ... to load-balance ...") and
Barry's archived email of 2006/11/29 "Load-balancing mailman between two
servers".

They talk about setting up multiple "slices" for "qfiles".  But it's not
clear how this is done.  I suspect I need to copy the "QRUNNERS"
definition across from Defaults.py to mm_cfg.py, and then do some sort of
edit.  And that this edit should somehow specify both a power-of-2 number
of slices (same on both machines), and also some sort of specification of
which slices this machine should run (different on both machines).  But
what is that edit?  Is it changing the "1" for one or more of the QRUNNER
entries (which?) to something like "1:2" (machine1) and "2:2" (machine2)?

Have I missed something in the doucmentation about this particular aspect?


Looking more generally, is there any other overall advice on such
clustering?

I would plan:

o  two front-end Mailman machines, clustered via Linux-HA/heartbeat (of
which we already have experience).  Ideally these would run live/live,
maintaining a pair of round-robin service-IP addresses.  (With a machine
failure, the other machine would adopt the failed machine's service-IP.)

o  a central (NetApp) NFS server would store all the Mailman data (though
"mm_cfg.py" would presumably be maintained within each machine).  Are
there any other considerations about what data-storage would be best kept
per-machine?


So I'd need to set up that multiple slice/qrunner stuff.  And probably
(for unattended operation) arrange that failover would reconfigure the
good machine also to run all slices; similarly that failback (whether
manual or automatic) after recovery would revert to "only my slices"
operation.


Has this been written up anywhere?  If not, I'd be happy to keep notes of
the process and submit them back to the Mailman documentation if that
would help.

Thanks.


-- 

:  David Lee                                I.T. Service          :
:  Senior Systems Programmer                Computer Centre       :
:  UNIX Team Leader                         Durham University     :
:                                           South Road            :
:  http://www.dur.ac.uk/t.d.lee/            Durham DH1 3LE        :
:  Phone: +44 191 334 2752                  U.K.                  :

From doppeltgemoppelt at gmail.com  Fri Jul  4 15:45:54 2008
From: doppeltgemoppelt at gmail.com (joz)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:45:54 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] wish list
In-Reply-To: <486E1DEE.2080305@gmail.com>
References: <486E1DEE.2080305@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <486E2992.3050102@gmail.com>

Hi,
thanks for the great software which mailman is.

On your website I could not find how to ad a wish to your wish-list. I 
hope this mail is the apropriate way...

I have a wish for the digest mode:
Answering to one specific message of the digest does not seem to be 
possible. I think it does not make so much sense to reply to the whole 
digest. It would be fine if a specific answer with the right mail 
subject would be possible.

And something that is already on your list:
"More flexible digests: index digests (subject and authors only, with 
URLs to retrieve the article)"
Only URLs are not what I would really like, but a clickable index with 
anchors to the concerned message within the mail would be nice.

thanks again
greetings
Joz


From falko.richter at fhtw-berlin.de  Fri Jul  4 15:48:24 2008
From: falko.richter at fhtw-berlin.de (Falko Richter)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:48:24 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam protection
Message-ID: <486E2A28.1080607@fhtw-berlin.de>

Hello everyone,

I?m using the mailman from my university for a big project (12 mailings 
lists) there is some amount of spam and i would like to filter a little 
bit. I only want to accept mails from my university ( ***@fhtw-berlin.de 
) and from the domain of the project ( ***@dpwk.de ).

Is there an option to do just that? some sort of regex-filter for 
incoming mail?

Thanks for the support

Falko

From james.cort at u4eatech.com  Fri Jul  4 17:15:23 2008
From: james.cort at u4eatech.com (James Cort)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 16:15:23 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Authorization required with FireFox 3
Message-ID: <486E3E8B.6030201@u4eatech.com>

I've found that I have the same problem with Firefox 3 and Mailman 
2.1.9rc1, viz. I can log in with setting the URL ?adminpw=<password> but 
the admin login interface always returns "Authorization failed".

Once logged in with ?adminpw=, everything works as it should.  I can 
mass-subscribe members, edit settings and logout as I'd want.

The login for the user list membership configuration page works just 
fine, as does visiting the subscriber list on lists with a protected 
subscriber list and viewing list archives.

I've used ethereal to capture the traffic between my PC and the list 
server.  The capture file is about 4kb; would there be a problem with me 
attaching it to a mail to this list?

The underlying platform is Gentoo Linux with Python 2.3.5.

-- 
James Cort

IT Manager
U4EA Technologies Ltd.

-- 
U4EA Technologies
http://www.u4eatech.com


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul  4 17:53:41 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 08:53:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman post requires approval(Receiving 100
	mailsdaily)
In-Reply-To: <755881.66087.qm@web32708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807040853410500a618c21d@msapiro>

bijayant kumar wrote:
>
>I am facing very strange situation. I am using Mailman on centos machine. It was running fine from few months. Suddenly my users complaints that they are not receiving mails on the list. I just restarted the mailman service, and suddenly they received 1 months old mails. I did not understand the reason. Why the mails has not been delivered earlier though mailman service was running. Why the mails stucked? Now how to tackle this situation, should i have to restart mailman once daily?


See <http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9> for info on troubleshooting no mail
delivery.


>One more problem i am facing. Whenever i am restarting mailman i am getting 100 mails From default list "Mailman" stating 
>Mailman post requires approval
>
>Subject: Cron <mailman at server> mailman /var/mailman/cron/gate_news
>Reason:  Post by non-member to a members-only list
>
>/bin/sh: line 1: mailman: command not found


Your mailman crontab is not in the correct format. You may have two
crontabs, one of which is working and one of which is not.

You have a 'system' mailman crontab which is intended to be installed
in /etc/cron.d/mailman, and it is installed (probably by crontab -u
mailman) in /var/spool/cron/mailman. The two crontabs have different
formats. The system crontab has an extra field for the effective user.
When you install it as a user crontab, that field (containing mailman)
is taken as the command. It fails, and cron mails the failure to
'mailman' which is the post by non-member to your mailman list.
gate_news is run every 5 minutes, so you get one every 5 minutes.

If you have /etc/cron.d/mailman installed, just remove
/var/spool/cron/mailman, either

rm /var/spool/cron/mailman

or

crontab -u mailman -r

If you don't have /etc/cron.d/mailman installed then just

mv /var/spool/cron/mailman /etc/cron.d/mailman


>I have turned off the moderation bit and deleted all these mails also. But whenever i am restarting the mailman service, i am getting 100 of such mails.
>How to avoid getting these mails. Can i delete these notifications.
>Please help me, i am in very tough situation.


Fixing the crontab issue will eliminate those notices, but you still
have the problem of why mail is not delivered until you restart. See
<http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul  4 17:57:29 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 08:57:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Authorization required with FireFox 3
In-Reply-To: <486E3E8B.6030201@u4eatech.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070408572903905d23de63@msapiro>

James Cort wrote:

>I've found that I have the same problem with Firefox 3 and Mailman 
>2.1.9rc1, viz. I can log in with setting the URL ?adminpw=<password> but 
>the admin login interface always returns "Authorization failed".
>
>Once logged in with ?adminpw=, everything works as it should.  I can 
>mass-subscribe members, edit settings and logout as I'd want.
>
>The login for the user list membership configuration page works just 
>fine, as does visiting the subscriber list on lists with a protected 
>subscriber list and viewing list archives.
>
>I've used ethereal to capture the traffic between my PC and the list 
>server.  The capture file is about 4kb; would there be a problem with me 
>attaching it to a mail to this list?


Please do send it. Be sure the attachment is 'text/plain'. otherwise,
content filtering will remove it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul  4 19:15:01 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:15:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] wish list
In-Reply-To: <486E2992.3050102@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807041015010437c5cb6f76@msapiro>

joz wrote:
>
>On your website I could not find how to ad a wish to your wish-list. I 
>hope this mail is the apropriate way...
>
>I have a wish for the digest mode:
>Answering to one specific message of the digest does not seem to be 
>possible. I think it does not make so much sense to reply to the whole 
>digest. It would be fine if a specific answer with the right mail 
>subject would be possible.


This depends on digest format and your MUA. If you set your digest
format to MIME rather than Plain, the digest will be sent with the
individual messages as message/rfc822 parts within a multipart/digest
part.

Then it is up to your MUA (mail client) to understand this format and
allow you to reply to an individual message. Some do and some don't.


>And something that is already on your list:
>"More flexible digests: index digests (subject and authors only, with 
>URLs to retrieve the article)"
>Only URLs are not what I would really like, but a clickable index with 
>anchors to the concerned message within the mail would be nice.


You can add these and other comments to <http://wiki.list.org/x/IQ>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul  4 19:19:04 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:19:04 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam protection
In-Reply-To: <486E2A28.1080607@fhtw-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807041019040046c5cb6df2@msapiro>

Falko Richter wrote:
>
>I?m using the mailman from my university for a big project (12 mailings 
>lists) there is some amount of spam and i would like to filter a little 
>bit. I only want to accept mails from my university ( ***@fhtw-berlin.de 
>) and from the domain of the project ( ***@dpwk.de ).
>
>Is there an option to do just that? some sort of regex-filter for 
>incoming mail?


Yes. See the *_these_nonmembers settings on the list admin Privacy
options... -> Sender filters page.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From morte at chsti.com  Fri Jul  4 20:48:45 2008
From: morte at chsti.com (Luiz)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:48:45 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] qmail
Message-ID: <486E708D.6060902@chsti.com>


Hello List, this is my first post.

I'm trying to use qmail-ldap with mailman.

I've installed mailman with this parameters

make MAILMANDIR=/var/mailman MAIL_GID=qnofiles CGI_GID=www install

I've created two lists:

mailman: works great
test: I received this error for any message that I try to send to the list.

2008-07-04 15:31:28.148486500 delivery 17: deferral: 
Group_mismatch_error.__Mailman_expected_the_mail/wrapper_script_to_be_executed_as_group_"vmail",
_but/the_system's_mail_server_executed_the_mail_script_as/group_"qnofiles".
__Try_tweaking_the_mail_server_to_run_the/script_as_group_"vmail",_or_re-run_configure,
_/providing_the_command_line_option_`--with-mail-gid=qnofiles'./


If I chance MAIL_GID=vmail, I received the error to use qnofiles.
If I chance MAIL_GID=qnofiles, I received the error to use vmail.

Have you seen this error before?

Thanks in advance for any help.
Luiz




From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul  4 21:18:22 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:18:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] load-balance 2.1.x
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0807041205160.14066@arachne.dur.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070412182209378713f17f@msapiro>

David Lee wrote:
>
>(This is in relation to 2.0.9, but I would probably move to 2.1.11.)
>
>I've been reading FAQ 4.75 ("How do I set up ... to load-balance ...") and
>Barry's archived email of 2006/11/29 "Load-balancing mailman between two
>servers".
>
>They talk about setting up multiple "slices" for "qfiles".  But it's not
>clear how this is done.  I suspect I need to copy the "QRUNNERS"
>definition across from Defaults.py to mm_cfg.py, and then do some sort of
>edit.  And that this edit should somehow specify both a power-of-2 number
>of slices (same on both machines), and also some sort of specification of
>which slices this machine should run (different on both machines).  But
>what is that edit?  Is it changing the "1" for one or more of the QRUNNER
>entries (which?) to something like "1:2" (machine1) and "2:2" (machine2)?
>
>Have I missed something in the doucmentation about this particular aspect?


You need to do more than just edit the QRUNNERS list in mm_cfg.py . If
you just change the 1's to 2's, mailmanctl will start two of each
runner on each machine, a 0:2 runner and a 1:2 runner (slices are
numbered from 0).

You also need to modify mailmanctl, so that on one machine it starts
only the 0:2 sliced runners and on the other only the 1:2 sliced
runners.

If you are having separate mm_cfg.py files per machine (see below), it
would be fairly simple to modify the structure of the QRUNNERS list to
specify not only the number of slices, but which slices to start. This
would be done by changing the start_all_runners() function in
mailmanctl.


>Looking more generally, is there any other overall advice on such
>clustering?


You'll find some information in the hits at
<http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Amail.python.org+inurl%3Amailman+load+balancing>


>I would plan:
>
>o  two front-end Mailman machines, clustered via Linux-HA/heartbeat (of
>which we already have experience).  Ideally these would run live/live,
>maintaining a pair of round-robin service-IP addresses.  (With a machine
>failure, the other machine would adopt the failed machine's service-IP.)
>
>o  a central (NetApp) NFS server would store all the Mailman data (though
>"mm_cfg.py" would presumably be maintained within each machine).  Are
>there any other considerations about what data-storage would be best kept
>per-machine?


Having separate mm_cfg.py files per machine might be tricky. I have no
experience with this, so I'm probably overlooking things, but my
initial thought is it would be easy to just create a symlink from
Mailman/mm_cfg.py to a file outside the shared file system, but this
is problematic. What will happen is the first process that imports
mm_cfg will read it from the symlinked file, but will create
mm_cfg.pyc in the Mailman/ directory and subsequent processes will
just read the shared mm_cfg.pyc. You can work around this by also
having a compiled mm_cfg.pyc symlinked from Mailman/mm_cfg.pyc, but
you have to be careful, because if you edit mm_cfg.py and then just
import it, Python will recompile it and put the new mm_cfg.pyc in
Mailman/mm_cfg.pyc removing the symlink.


>So I'd need to set up that multiple slice/qrunner stuff.  And probably
>(for unattended operation) arrange that failover would reconfigure the
>good machine also to run all slices; similarly that failback (whether
>manual or automatic) after recovery would revert to "only my slices"
>operation.
>
>
>Has this been written up anywhere?  If not, I'd be happy to keep notes of
>the process and submit them back to the Mailman documentation if that
>would help.


I'm not aware of anything beyond what you'll find with the above and
similar google searches.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From raou-chimi at hotmail.fr  Fri Jul  4 21:33:51 2008
From: raou-chimi at hotmail.fr (SAA SASA)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:33:51 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 53, Issue 16
In-Reply-To: <mailman.753.1215199115.20627.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.753.1215199115.20627.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <BAY128-W5270936B2E9AD7668D325CF89B0@phx.gbl>


 hey mother fucker i am not your fuckin admin don't email me again
_________________________________________________________________
T?l?chargez gratuitement des ?motic?nes pour pimenter vos conversations Messenger
http://specials.fr.msn.com/femmes/amour/emoticonesLove.aspx 

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul  4 22:06:12 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 13:06:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] qmail
In-Reply-To: <486E708D.6060902@chsti.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807041306120218c9c96ea6@msapiro>

Luiz wrote:
>
>I've installed mailman with this parameters
>
>make MAILMANDIR=/var/mailman MAIL_GID=qnofiles CGI_GID=www install


None of those 3 parameters are in our Makefiles. The mail and cgi
groups are MAIL_GROUP and CGI_GROUP and the install directory is
prefix.

Are you installing our GNU Mailman distribution or someone's package.
If this is our distribution, those things are normally set at
configure time with the --prefix=, --with-mail-gid= and
--with-cgi-gid= configure options.

If this is pre-configured package, you'll probably need to use the
support resources of the packager.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From billc_lists at greenbuilder.com  Sat Jul  5 03:06:21 2008
From: billc_lists at greenbuilder.com (Bill Christensen)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 20:06:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Inaccessible public archives
Message-ID: <a0623091dc49372bc361c@[192.168.33.3]>

Hi folks,

I just moved my Mailman/Apache/Postfix server to a new hard drive, 
and in the process managed to make the public archives inaccessible. 
Private archives work fine, as does everything else as far as I can 
tell.

I suspect that the problem has to do with my renaming the root hard 
drive (though of course the paths would typically still be 
/usr/local/mailman/ which accounts for most everything still working).

I've tried switching to private archives and back again in the hope 
of building a new working symlink, but there's no difference.  I made 
no changes to the Apache config file, and all the paths and rules 
there look like they should work.

Any ideas where else I should search for a fix?


-- 
Bill Christensen
<http://greenbuilder.com/contact/>

Green Building Professionals Directory: <http://directory.greenbuilder.com>
Sustainable Building Calendar: <http://www.greenbuilder.com/calendar/>
Green Real Estate: <http://www.greenbuilder.com/realestate/>
Straw Bale Registry: <http://sbregistry.greenbuilder.com/>
Books/videos/software: <http://bookstore.greenbuilder.com/>

From morte at chsti.com  Sat Jul  5 03:10:13 2008
From: morte at chsti.com (Luiz)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 22:10:13 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] qmail
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807041306120218c9c96ea6@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200807041306120218c9c96ea6@msapiro>
Message-ID: <486EC9F5.7080706@chsti.com>


Hello Mark,

Sorry for my mistake.

Mark Sapiro escreveu:
> Luiz wrote:
>> I've installed mailman with this parameters
>>
>> make MAILMANDIR=/var/mailman MAIL_GID=qnofiles CGI_GID=www install

This is for the BSD ports. I've done this:

#./configure --prefix=/var/mailman --with-mail-gid=qnofiles --with-cgi-gid=www
#make install

It?s working now. That error bellow had been fixed with this configuration.

Thanks any way.

Luiz.




> 
> 
> None of those 3 parameters are in our Makefiles. The mail and cgi
> groups are MAIL_GROUP and CGI_GROUP and the install directory is
> prefix.
> 
> Are you installing our GNU Mailman distribution or someone's package.
> If this is our distribution, those things are normally set at
> configure time with the --prefix=, --with-mail-gid= and
> --with-cgi-gid= configure options.
> 
> If this is pre-configured package, you'll probably need to use the
> support resources of the packager.
> 


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jul  5 03:59:10 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 18:59:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Inaccessible public archives
In-Reply-To: <a0623091dc49372bc361c@[192.168.33.3]>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070418591004841b5ac16e@msapiro>

Bill Christensen wrote:
>
>I just moved my Mailman/Apache/Postfix server to a new hard drive, 
>and in the process managed to make the public archives inaccessible. 
>Private archives work fine, as does everything else as far as I can 
>tell.
>
>I suspect that the problem has to do with my renaming the root hard 
>drive (though of course the paths would typically still be 
>/usr/local/mailman/ which accounts for most everything still working).
>
>I've tried switching to private archives and back again in the hope 
>of building a new working symlink, but there's no difference.  I made 
>no changes to the Apache config file, and all the paths and rules 
>there look like they should work.
>
>Any ideas where else I should search for a fix?


What does Apache say when you try to access a public archive? What's in
Apache's error log?

Is SELinux or some other security policy management involved?

What are the ownership and permissions of
/usr/local/mailman/archives/private ?  In particular, is it either
owned by the apache user or o+x ?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From brad at shub-internet.org  Sat Jul  5 08:03:22 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 01:03:22 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] wish list
In-Reply-To: <486E2992.3050102@gmail.com>
References: <486E1DEE.2080305@gmail.com> <486E2992.3050102@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240801c494be96e8fc@[192.168.1.102]>

On 7/4/08, joz wrote:

>  I have a wish for the digest mode:
>  Answering to one specific message of the digest does not seem to be
>  possible.

Depends on the digest format and the client.  Some clients are 
intelligent enough to be able to take a single input digest message 
and break that up into multiple chunks which can be treated as 
individual messages.  If your client doesn't do this, then you should 
take this up with the people who wrote your client.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From billc_lists at greenbuilder.com  Sat Jul  5 10:29:40 2008
From: billc_lists at greenbuilder.com (Bill Christensen)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 03:29:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Inaccessible public archives
Message-ID: <a06230906c494e17128e3@[192.168.33.3]>

At 6:59 PM -0700 7/4/08, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>Bill Christensen wrote:
>>
>>I just moved my Mailman/Apache/Postfix server to a new hard drive,
>>and in the process managed to make the public archives inaccessible.
>>Private archives work fine, as does everything else as far as I can
>>tell.
>>
>>I suspect that the problem has to do with my renaming the root hard
>>drive (though of course the paths would typically still be
>>/usr/local/mailman/ which accounts for most everything still working).
>>
>>I've tried switching to private archives and back again in the hope
>>of building a new working symlink, but there's no difference.  I made
>>no changes to the Apache config file, and all the paths and rules
>>there look like they should work.
>>
>>Any ideas where else I should search for a fix?
>
>
>What does Apache say when you try to access a public archive? What's in
>Apache's error log?

Symbolic link not allowed.

>
>Is SELinux or some other security policy management involved?

nope.

>
>What are the ownership and permissions of
>/usr/local/mailman/archives/private ?  In particular, is it either
>owned by the apache user or o+x ?


they were were

drwxrws---	nobody	mailman	private
drwxrwsr-x	billc	mailman	public

I looked on the old hd and found them set as

drwxrwx---	billc	mailman	private
drwxrwxr-x	billc	mailman	public

I tried a perms fix, but that didn't do the  trick.

So I tried changing them to that.  Bad idea, now I'm getting a "we've 
hit a bug in mailman 2.1.9..." message when logging in to the web 
interface.   I tried another perms fix, and the symptoms are 
unchanged.

Help, Mr Wizard!  I have no idea how to set an "rws" to get it back 
to broken but generally functional.


-- 
Bill Christensen
<http://greenbuilder.com/contact/>

Green Building Professionals Directory: <http://directory.greenbuilder.com>
Sustainable Building Calendar: <http://www.greenbuilder.com/calendar/>
Green Real Estate: <http://www.greenbuilder.com/realestate/>
Straw Bale Registry: <http://sbregistry.greenbuilder.com/>
Books/videos/software: <http://bookstore.greenbuilder.com/>

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jul  5 16:24:14 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 07:24:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Inaccessible public archives
In-Reply-To: <a06230906c494e17128e3@[192.168.33.3]>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070507241405311f51d7a1@msapiro>

Bill Christensen wrote:

>At 6:59 PM -0700 7/4/08, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>
>>What does Apache say when you try to access a public archive? What's in
>>Apache's error log?
>
>Symbolic link not allowed.


This says you need

Options +FollowSymLinks

in a

<Directory /usr/local/mailman/archives/public>

or superordinate block.


>>What are the ownership and permissions of
>>/usr/local/mailman/archives/private ?  In particular, is it either
>>owned by the apache user or o+x ?
>
>
>they were were
>
>drwxrws---	nobody	mailman	private
>drwxrwsr-x	billc	mailman	public
>
>I looked on the old hd and found them set as
>
>drwxrwx---	billc	mailman	private
>drwxrwxr-x	billc	mailman	public
>
>I tried a perms fix, but that didn't do the  trick.

Permissions and ownership should be as in the first set, assuming
Apache runs as user 'nobody'.


>
>So I tried changing them to that.  Bad idea, now I'm getting a "we've 
>hit a bug in mailman 2.1.9..." message when logging in to the web 
>interface.   I tried another perms fix, and the symptoms are 
>unchanged.
>
>Help, Mr Wizard!  I have no idea how to set an "rws" to get it back 
>to broken but generally functional.


chmod g+s will do it, but just to make sure everything is right, do it
this way:

chmod 2770 /usr/local/mailman/archives/private
chown nobody:mailman /usr/local/mailman/archives/private
chmod 2775 /usr/local/mailman/archives/public

Then put the Options +FollowSymLinks in an appropriate Directory block
in the Apache config.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From billc_lists at greenbuilder.com  Sat Jul  5 19:26:02 2008
From: billc_lists at greenbuilder.com (Bill Christensen)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:26:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Inaccessible public archives
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008070507241405311f51d7a1@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008070507241405311f51d7a1@msapiro>
Message-ID: <a06230907c4955eef92b4@[192.168.33.3]>

Thanks.  That and fixing a missing symlink did the trick.

At 7:24 AM -0700 7/5/08, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>
>
>chmod g+s will do it, but just to make sure everything is right, do it
>this way:
>
>chmod 2770 /usr/local/mailman/archives/private
>chown nobody:mailman /usr/local/mailman/archives/private
>chmod 2775 /usr/local/mailman/archives/public
>
>Then put the Options +FollowSymLinks in an appropriate Directory block
>in the Apache config.
>

-- 
Bill Christensen
<http://greenbuilder.com/contact/>

Green Building Professionals Directory: <http://directory.greenbuilder.com>
Sustainable Building Calendar: <http://www.greenbuilder.com/calendar/>
Green Real Estate: <http://www.greenbuilder.com/realestate/>
Straw Bale Registry: <http://sbregistry.greenbuilder.com/>
Books/videos/software: <http://bookstore.greenbuilder.com/>

From rcampbel at eng.utoledo.edu  Sun Jul  6 01:47:52 2008
From: rcampbel at eng.utoledo.edu (Robert Campbell)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:47:52 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Apache Resource Issue
Message-ID: <8bae9e280807051647v6db74d6s2a79a212f1217638@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, I had mailman working not less than 10 min ago, and now I get a 500
error.

The apache error log shows the following when I try to go to admin,
listinfo, and couple of the other cgi .

(11)Resource temporarily unavailable: couldn't create child process: 11:
listinfo
 (11)Resource temporarily unavailable: couldn't spawn child process:
<cgi-location>/listinfo

If there is any one has any suggestions they are greatly appreciated, since
I do not know where to start.

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jul  6 02:06:23 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 17:06:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Apache Resource Issue
In-Reply-To: <8bae9e280807051647v6db74d6s2a79a212f1217638@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070517062303128173f8cf@msapiro>

Robert Campbell wrote:
>
>The apache error log shows the following when I try to go to admin,
>listinfo, and couple of the other cgi .
>
>(11)Resource temporarily unavailable: couldn't create child process: 11:
>listinfo
> (11)Resource temporarily unavailable: couldn't spawn child process:
><cgi-location>/listinfo


I'm not an Apache expert, but it looks like you are running up against
some Apache limit - maybe RLimitNPROC.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From maickel.pandie at gmail.com  Sun Jul  6 14:08:13 2008
From: maickel.pandie at gmail.com (Maickel Pandie)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 19:08:13 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailmanctl stop working?
Message-ID: <6a215fbe0807060508h5493f901m8cc29b58d3322b07@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Yesterday I  tested my server Mailman + Postfix,
I start mailmanctl and postfix service,
When I sent 40 email with 15 MB attachment size from another computer,
Postfix received all email I sent but Mailman suddenly stop working, so I
have to start again mailmanctl after all email had been recieved by Postfix.
Can you tell me why this situation happen?

From barry at list.org  Sun Jul  6 17:52:45 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 11:52:45 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Donate to GNU Mailman!
Message-ID: <1890C687-2335-408B-84E2-602571A19A3D@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I'm very pleased to announce that you can now donate to the GNU  
Mailman project!

https://www.fsf.org/donate/directed-donations/gnumailman/

The Free Software Foundation has established a directed donation fund  
for GNU Mailman.  Most of your donation goes directly to GNU Mailman,  
with a small percentage going to help the FSF.  You can now support  
both great organizations with one donation.

As quoted on the donation page:

"Your donation will be used to obtain equipment, services, development  
resources and other support for the GNU Mailman project.  All  
expenditures will be approved by a committee chosen from core GNU  
Mailman maintainers, and will be fully disclosed on the main GNU  
Mailman website."

Currently myself, Mark Sapiro and Terri Oda are serving as members of  
the informal Mailman Steering Committee.

I'd like to thank Peter Brown at the FSF for help getting this set up  
over there. I'd also like to thank Jeff Marshall and Jeff Breidenbach  
from the Mail-Archive.com for their initial generous donation.  As  
part of this kick-start, Mailman 3 will make it possible to easily  
archive your public mailing lists at www.mail-archive.com, including a  
permalink in the footer of all messages.

More details on the donation program are available on the wiki:

http://wiki.list.org/x/R4BJ

Feel free to comment on that page with any questions, and we'll make  
sure to update the page with any additional information.

Please consider supporting both GNU Mailman and the FSF with your  
donation.  We thank you.

- -Barry

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)

iEYEARECAAYFAkhw6k0ACgkQ2YZpQepbvXEo8ACffJq3QNTmNIDIR8Fa6x8e+sjT
2egAnArei7fdCEsIjNjcW7utRs6KHHCc
=6VAj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jul  6 17:59:37 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 08:59:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailmanctl stop working?
In-Reply-To: <6a215fbe0807060508h5493f901m8cc29b58d3322b07@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC187020080706085937067133d3a284@msapiro>

Maickel Pandie wrote:
>
>Yesterday I  tested my server Mailman + Postfix,
>I start mailmanctl and postfix service,
>When I sent 40 email with 15 MB attachment size from another computer,
>Postfix received all email I sent but Mailman suddenly stop working, so I
>have to start again mailmanctl after all email had been recieved by Postfix.
>Can you tell me why this situation happen?


Not without more information. Look in Mailman's error, locks and
qrunner logs for more information. Also look in the system maillog to
be sure the mail was actually piped to Mailman without delay.

Also, are you sure that Mailman was completely shut down with no
qrunners running and no locks/ files before starting the first time,
and did you do a 'start' or a 'restart' the second time?

See these FAQs - <http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9> and
<http://wiki.list.org/x/_4A9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From david at hlacik.eu  Mon Jul  7 14:47:36 2008
From: david at hlacik.eu (=?ISO-8859-2?Q?David_Hl=E1=E8ik?=)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:47:36 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] body text size limit
Message-ID: <cba415ca0807070547m3e30618cpd832aa3b499d8b54@mail.gmail.com>

Hello, we have noticed, that mailman is breaking long subject values with
newlines. What is the motivation for doing this?

Sample :

Path: groups.polarion.com!not-for-mail
From: "Miroslav Ruza" <miroslav.ruza at polarion.com>
Newsgroups: polarion.it
*Subject: hodne dlouhy text gfgfsdlkgnd slkngdlksngldksg lknlkgs klnlnk iin
l
    inlin egfrfe*
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:41:48 +0200

.............

Thanks in advance!

David

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul  7 17:28:54 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 08:28:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Header folding - was: body text size limit
In-Reply-To: <cba415ca0807070547m3e30618cpd832aa3b499d8b54@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cba415ca0807070547m3e30618cpd832aa3b499d8b54@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48723636.3050008@msapiro.net>

David Hl??ik wrote:
> Hello, we have noticed, that mailman is breaking long subject values with
> newlines. What is the motivation for doing this?


RFC 2822 section 2.1.1 and 2.2.3

2.1.1. Line Length Limits

    There are two limits that this standard places on the number of
    characters in a line. Each line of characters MUST be no more than
    998 characters, and SHOULD be no more than 78 characters, excluding
    the CRLF.
    [...]

2.2.3. Long Header Fields

    Each header field is logically a single line of characters comprising
    the field name, the colon, and the field body.  For convenience
    however, and to deal with the 998/78 character limitations per line,
    the field body portion of a header field can be split into a multiple
    line representation; this is called "folding".  The general rule is

    that wherever this standard allows for folding white space (not
    simply WSP characters), a CRLF may be inserted before any WSP.  For
    example, the header field:

            Subject: This is a test

    can be represented as:

            Subject: This
             is a test
    [...]

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From terri at zone12.com  Mon Jul  7 17:40:09 2008
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:40:09 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] body text size limit
In-Reply-To: <cba415ca0807070547m3e30618cpd832aa3b499d8b54@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cba415ca0807070547m3e30618cpd832aa3b499d8b54@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E6490BC4-69E9-410C-A5E1-3BB37ADB045A@zone12.com>

On 7-Jul-08, at 8:47 AM, David Hl??ik wrote:
> Hello, we have noticed, that mailman is breaking long subject  
> values with
> newlines. What is the motivation for doing this?

The short answer: it's not Mailman, it's the python email library  
that does it.

For more discussion, there was just a thread on this topic two weeks  
ago.  It starts here:
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/msg49882.html

  Terri


From mark_dara at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  8 05:42:34 2008
From: mark_dara at yahoo.com (Mak Dara)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:42:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] every posting is approved by admin
Message-ID: <874860.585.qm@web57209.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Hello

I can't find option for every mail posting is approved by administrator before display in inbox's users(both subscript users and unsubscripted users), waiting for admin approved.
Please share me.

I hope get back from you.

Dara


      

From RATKINSON at tbs-ltd.co.uk  Tue Jul  8 08:25:25 2008
From: RATKINSON at tbs-ltd.co.uk (Atkinson, Robert)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 07:25:25 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using MailMan To Hide Addresses
Message-ID: <C2C319C4C1CC7D46B2D7815BE3A2753E03CECE10@coxsrv-3.uk.randomhouse.com>

I have a unique problem where I need to use MailMan (or another application)
to hide my users email addresses.
 
Basically, I need to create a single address that a company ('Global
Supplies') will email me on, e.g. 'community at mycompany.com'
<mailto:'community at mycompany.com'> . When the email gets to me, I need to
check and release it. It will then be distributed to all the users on the
'community at mycompany.com' list, BUT must still appear as if it came from the
'Global Supplies' email address, and not mine.
 
I'd like to know if MailMan can do this, if you know of any companies that
use MailMan where I can buy a managed service, or any other software/services
where I can achieve the same goals.
 
Thanks, Robert.

***********************************************************************************
Any opinions expressed in email are those of the individual and not necessarily those of the company. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and solely for the use of the intended recipient 
or entity to whom they are addressed. It may contain material protected by attorney-client privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering to the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use is strictly prohibited.

Random House Group + 44 (0) 20 7840 8400
http://www.randomhouse.co.uk
http://www.booksattransworld.co.uk 
http://www.kidsatrandomhouse.co.uk
Generic email address - enquiries at randomhouse.co.uk

Name & Registered Office:
THE RANDOM HOUSE GROUP LIMITED
20 VAUXHALL BRIDGE ROAD
LONDON
SW1V 2SA
Random House Group Ltd is registered in the United Kingdom with company No. 00954009, VAT number 102838980
***********************************************************************************


From mark_dara at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  8 12:16:39 2008
From: mark_dara at yahoo.com (Mak Dara)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 03:16:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 53, Issue 20
In-Reply-To: <mailman.14.1215511208.16452.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <406142.20132.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Ok thank for your experience? but i don't meaning like this, I want to moderation all posting mail that waiting for admin approved. 

Dara

--- On Tue, 7/8/08, mailman-users-request at python.org <mailman-users-request at python.org> wrote:
From: mailman-users-request at python.org <mailman-users-request at python.org>
Subject: Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 53, Issue 20
To: mailman-users at python.org
Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 3:00 AM

Send Mailman-Users mailing list submissions to
	mailman-users at python.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	mailman-users-request at python.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	mailman-users-owner at python.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Mailman-Users digest..."Today's Topics:

   1. body text size limit ( David Hl??ik )
   2. Re: Header folding - was: body text size limit (Mark Sapiro)
   3. Re: body text size limit (Terri Oda)
   4. every posting is approved by admin (Mak Dara)
   5. Using MailMan To Hide Addresses (Atkinson, Robert)Hello, we have noticed, that mailman is breaking long subject values with
newlines. What is the motivation for doing this?

Sample :

Path: groups.polarion.com!not-for-mail
From: "Miroslav Ruza" <miroslav.ruza at polarion.com>
Newsgroups: polarion.it
*Subject: hodne dlouhy text gfgfsdlkgnd slkngdlksngldksg lknlkgs klnlnk iin
l
    inlin egfrfe*
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:41:48 +0200

.............

Thanks in advance!

DavidDavid Hl??ik wrote:
> Hello, we have noticed, that mailman is breaking long subject values with
> newlines. What is the motivation for doing this?


RFC 2822 section 2.1.1 and 2.2.3

2.1.1. Line Length Limits

    There are two limits that this standard places on the number of
    characters in a line. Each line of characters MUST be no more than
    998 characters, and SHOULD be no more than 78 characters, excluding
    the CRLF.
    [...]

2.2.3. Long Header Fields

    Each header field is logically a single line of characters comprising
    the field name, the colon, and the field body.  For convenience
    however, and to deal with the 998/78 character limitations per line,
    the field body portion of a header field can be split into a multiple
    line representation; this is called "folding".  The general rule
is

    that wherever this standard allows for folding white space (not
    simply WSP characters), a CRLF may be inserted before any WSP.  For
    example, the header field:

            Subject: This is a test

    can be represented as:

            Subject: This
             is a test
    [...]

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. DylanOn 7-Jul-08, at 8:47 AM, David Hl??ik wrote:
> Hello, we have noticed, that mailman is breaking long subject  
> values with
> newlines. What is the motivation for doing this?

The short answer: it's not Mailman, it's the python email library  
that does it.

For more discussion, there was just a thread on this topic two weeks  
ago.  It starts here:
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/msg49882.html

  TerriHello

I can't find option for every mail posting is approved by administrator
before display in inbox's users(both subscript users and unsubscripted
users), waiting for admin approved.
Please share me.

I hope get back from you.

DaraI have a unique problem where I need to use MailMan (or another application)
to hide my users email addresses.
 
Basically, I need to create a single address that a company ('Global
Supplies') will email me on, e.g. 'community at mycompany.com'
<mailto:'community at mycompany.com'> . When the email gets to me, I
need to
check and release it. It will then be distributed to all the users on the
'community at mycompany.com' list, BUT must still appear as if it came
from the
'Global Supplies' email address, and not mine.
 
I'd like to know if MailMan can do this, if you know of any companies that
use MailMan where I can buy a managed service, or any other software/services
where I can achieve the same goals.
 
Thanks, Robert.

***********************************************************************************
Any opinions expressed in email are those of the individual and not necessarily
those of the company. This email and any files transmitted with it are
confidential and solely for the use of the intended recipient 
or entity to whom they are addressed. It may contain material protected by
attorney-client privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person
responsible for delivering to the intended recipient, be advised that you have
received this email in error and that any use is strictly prohibited.

Random House Group + 44 (0) 20 7840 8400
http://www.randomhouse.co.uk
http://www.booksattransworld.co.uk 
http://www.kidsatrandomhouse.co.uk
Generic email address - enquiries at randomhouse.co.uk

Name & Registered Office:
THE RANDOM HOUSE GROUP LIMITED
20 VAUXHALL BRIDGE ROAD
LONDON
SW1V 2SA
Random House Group Ltd is registered in the United Kingdom with company No.
00954009, VAT number 102838980
***********************************************************************************------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list
Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/


      

From dsilver at suddenlink.net  Tue Jul  8 12:29:15 2008
From: dsilver at suddenlink.net (Dana Silvernale)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 03:29:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] PHP List for humgreen@humboldtgreens.org sends
	duplicate messages
Message-ID: <E04AB334-71E2-4E14-B528-E55E786BB6C8@suddenlink.net>

Hello,

I am the list administrator for the PHP list  
humgreen at humboldtgreens.org.

I entered the html code for a web page I designed in Dreamweaver. I  
copied and pasted directly from Dreamweaver and added the http  
address for the images. The listserve sent the web page beautifully  
when I tested it in an email to myself, but when I sent it to my  
list, it went unformatted with links instead of the web page I  
received in my test. Now when I test it to myself and others on my  
list, it sends duplicate copies, one as a simple email with links,  
the other as the web page. How can I get the list serve to send only  
the web page design?

I will email you the two messages I am receiving so that you can see  
for yourself what I am getting. The subject line will read:
PHP List for humgreen at humboldtgreens.org sends duplicate messages -  
sample

Thanks!

Dana Silvernale
707 267-5342

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul  8 16:07:11 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 07:07:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] every posting is approved by admin
In-Reply-To: <874860.585.qm@web57209.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070807071104682d095bdf@msapiro>

Mak Dara wrote:
>
>I can't find option for every mail posting is approved by administrator before display in inbox's users(both subscript users and unsubscripted users), waiting for admin approved.
>Please share me.


On Privacy options...->Sender filters set default_member_moderation to
Yes. Also make sure that generic_nonmember_action is something other
than Accept (probably Hold if you want the admin/moderator to be able
to accept a non-member post).

Then go to Membership Management..., scroll down to Additional Member
Tasks, set On under "Set everyone's moderation bit, including those
members not currently visible" and click "Set"

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul  8 16:18:20 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 07:18:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using MailMan To Hide Addresses
In-Reply-To: <C2C319C4C1CC7D46B2D7815BE3A2753E03CECE10@coxsrv-3.uk.randomhouse.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070807182004689c6d5ea8@msapiro>

Atkinson, Robert wrote:

>I have a unique problem where I need to use MailMan (or another application)
>to hide my users email addresses.
> 
>Basically, I need to create a single address that a company ('Global
>Supplies') will email me on, e.g. 'community at mycompany.com'
><mailto:'community at mycompany.com'> . When the email gets to me, I need to
>check and release it. It will then be distributed to all the users on the
>'community at mycompany.com' list, BUT must still appear as if it came from the
>'Global Supplies' email address, and not mine.


This is how a Mailman list normally works, at least in part. As long as
the list is not "anonymous", the From: header in the post delivered to
the list will be that of the original post.

However, the Sender: header (and the envelope sender) would be set to
'community-bounces at mycompany.com' so automated bounce processing
works. Some MUAs, notably Microsoft Outlook, will display this
information to the user. See <http://wiki.list.org/x/RoA9>.


>I'd like to know if MailMan can do this, if you know of any companies that
>use MailMan where I can buy a managed service, or any other software/services
>where I can achieve the same goals.


See <http://wiki.list.org/x/N4A9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul  8 16:25:32 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 07:25:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] PHP List for humgreen@humboldtgreens.org
	sendsduplicate messages
In-Reply-To: <E04AB334-71E2-4E14-B528-E55E786BB6C8@suddenlink.net>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070807253209689c6d60a8@msapiro>

Dana Silvernale wrote:
>
>I am the list administrator for the PHP list  
>humgreen at humboldtgreens.org.


The mailman-users at python.org list is for discussion of GNU Mailman. It
has nothing whatsoever to do with phplist.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From t.d.lee at durham.ac.uk  Tue Jul  8 20:14:38 2008
From: t.d.lee at durham.ac.uk (David Lee)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 19:14:38 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] load-balance 2.1.x
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008070412182209378713f17f@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008070412182209378713f17f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0807081849020.14066@arachne.dur.ac.uk>

On Fri, 4 Jul 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> David Lee wrote:
> >
> >(This is in relation to 2.0.9, but I would probably move to 2.1.11.)
> >
> >I've been reading FAQ 4.75 ("How do I set up ... to load-balance ...") and
> >Barry's archived email of 2006/11/29 "Load-balancing mailman between two
> >servers".
> >
> >They talk about setting up multiple "slices" for "qfiles".  But it's not
> >clear how this is done.  I suspect I need to copy the "QRUNNERS"
> >definition across from Defaults.py to mm_cfg.py, and then do some sort of
> >edit.  And that this edit should somehow specify both a power-of-2 number
> >of slices (same on both machines), and also some sort of specification of
> >which slices this machine should run (different on both machines).  But
> >what is that edit?  Is it changing the "1" for one or more of the QRUNNER
> >entries (which?) to something like "1:2" (machine1) and "2:2" (machine2)?
> >
> >Have I missed something in the doucmentation about this particular aspect?
>
>
> You need to do more than just edit the QRUNNERS list in mm_cfg.py . If
> you just change the 1's to 2's, mailmanctl will start two of each
> runner on each machine, a 0:2 runner and a 1:2 runner (slices are
> numbered from 0).
>
> You also need to modify mailmanctl, so that on one machine it starts
> only the 0:2 sliced runners and on the other only the 1:2 sliced
> runners.

Thanks for your reply.  Much appreciated.

I'm starting from the ground here, bootstrapping myself through the
process, with very little knowledge other than what is in the publicly
available FAQ (e.g. 4.75) and Barry's email thread.

So if I "need to do more than just edit the QRUNNERS", what are those
extras that I need to do?

My guess of changing "1" to "1:2" was simply a guess in the absence of any
(known) documentation?  So let's backtrack on that. Could you let me know
a reasonable starting point for a specification, please?

You say that I "also need to modify mailmanctl".  But what should I modify
and how?

There's also sorts of words such as "queue runners" and "slices" and
"qfiles".  But what are these mysterious concepts and where can I read
about them (in a "bootstrap" kind of way)?

As I say, I'm happy to keep notes and to try to write them up for the
benefit of others.


> If you are having separate mm_cfg.py files per machine (see below), it
> would be fairly simple to modify the structure of the QRUNNERS list to
> specify not only the number of slices, but which slices to start. This
> would be done by changing the start_all_runners() function in
> mailmanctl.
>
> [...]
> Having separate mm_cfg.py files per machine might be tricky. I have no
> experience with this, so I'm probably overlooking things, but my
> initial thought is it would be easy to just create a symlink from
> Mailman/mm_cfg.py to a file outside the shared file system, but this
> is problematic. What will happen is the first process that imports
> mm_cfg will read it from the symlinked file, but will create
> mm_cfg.pyc in the Mailman/ directory and subsequent processes will
> just read the shared mm_cfg.pyc. You can work around this by also
> having a compiled mm_cfg.pyc symlinked from Mailman/mm_cfg.pyc, but
> you have to be careful, because if you edit mm_cfg.py and then just
> import it, Python will recompile it and put the new mm_cfg.pyc in
> Mailman/mm_cfg.pyc removing the symlink.


OK, so rewind on my earlier attempts at guessing what I might need to do.

Starting again, what would be "best practice" for this?

I currently run a simple single-machine self-contained Mailman server.

What steps (e.g. what edits to what files) do I take to adjust that (with
reasonable simplicity) into a resilient pair (Mailman cluster) using (for
example) Linux-HA/heartbeat and a NetApp NFS file server.

(I realise that the WWW aspect is "out of scope" for this discussion.
That's fine.)

There's some Mailman data (list configs, archives) which needs to be
available to both machines in the cluster and so "factored out" onto the
NetApp NFS box.  But what data (e.g. pathnames) is this?

There's some config. things I need to change (these mysterious "queue
runner", "slice", ... concepts?).  But what, and where and how?

(My guess at per-machine "mm_cfg.py" was simply a guess.  And possibly too
wild for comfort.  And I'd rather do things the tame way!  If there's a
better way than my guess, I'll follow it.)



> I'm not aware of anything beyond what you'll find with the above and
> similar google searches.

Thus it seems difficult for me (or others) to bootstrap myself up to the
requisite level even to understand the concepts, let alone be able then to
map them into details in config files (or, worse, edits to scripts).

But I would be happy to be guided through this, and then to try to
document it for the sake of others.

-- 

:  David Lee                                I.T. Service          :
:  Senior Systems Programmer                Computer Centre       :
:  UNIX Team Leader                         Durham University     :
:                                           South Road            :
:  http://www.dur.ac.uk/t.d.lee/            Durham DH1 3LE        :
:  Phone: +44 191 334 2752                  U.K.                  :

From knabe at 4j.lane.edu  Tue Jul  8 21:01:42 2008
From: knabe at 4j.lane.edu (Knabe, Troy)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:01:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Scripting List Creation
Message-ID: <C49907A6.10746%knabe@4j.lane.edu>

I currently use ldap groups for mail lists, and I am wanting to migrate them to Mailman.  I have somewhere around 1000 lists, and want to be able to script list creation.  Is there a way to run newlist and take it's input from a file?

Thanks
-Troy

From brad at shub-internet.org  Tue Jul  8 21:36:14 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:36:14 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using MailMan To Hide Addresses
In-Reply-To: <C2C319C4C1CC7D46B2D7815BE3A2753E03CECE10@coxsrv-3.uk.randomhouse.com>
References: <C2C319C4C1CC7D46B2D7815BE3A2753E03CECE10@coxsrv-3.uk.randomhouse.com>
Message-ID: <4873C1AE.2070902@shub-internet.org>

Atkinson, Robert wrote:
> I have a unique problem where I need to use MailMan (or another application)
> to hide my users email addresses.
>  
> Basically, I need to create a single address that a company ('Global
> Supplies') will email me on, e.g. 'community at mycompany.com'
> <mailto:'community at mycompany.com'> . When the email gets to me, I need to
> check and release it. It will then be distributed to all the users on the
> 'community at mycompany.com' list, BUT must still appear as if it came from the
> 'Global Supplies' email address, and not mine.
>  
> I'd like to know if MailMan can do this, if you know of any companies that
> use MailMan where I can buy a managed service, or any other software/services
> where I can achieve the same goals.

That sounds like a standard moderated mailing list.  Unless you choose the 
functions to convert it into an anonymous list, the sender's address will 
always appear to be that of the original sender (i.e., the "From:" header is 
not modified), pretty much regardless of what else may be done to the message.

As a moderator, you would get an e-mail message telling you that there is 
something waiting in the moderator queue, you fire up a web browser to go 
look at the queue and take action on it, and any approved messages should 
then show up on the list.

Of course, in the default configuration the sender is going to get a notice 
that their message is being held for moderation, which is good in most 
circumstances, but maybe not what you want here.


 From the looks of it, I think you want to talk to some Python/Mailman 
service providers and get a more direct in-person discussion over what the 
software can and cannot do for you, what kinds of fees they charge for their 
services, etc....

I'd suggest starting with the links in the "Mailman Community" page at 
<http://wiki.list.org/display/COM/Home> and check out both hosting services 
and consulting services.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Tue Jul  8 21:46:43 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:46:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 53, Issue 20
In-Reply-To: <406142.20132.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <406142.20132.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4873C423.2010203@shub-internet.org>

Mak Dara wrote:

> Ok thank for your experience  but i don't meaning like this, I want to
> moderation all posting mail that waiting for admin approved.

Gack.  Please trim your quotes in the future.

Anyway, one easy way to solve this problem is to turn on "emergency 
moderation" for the entire list.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul  8 22:07:34 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:07:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Scripting List Creation
In-Reply-To: <C49907A6.10746%knabe@4j.lane.edu>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070813073400157f9bccb1@msapiro>

Knabe, Troy wrote:

>I currently use ldap groups for mail lists, and I am wanting to migrate them to Mailman.  I have somewhere around 1000 lists, and want to be able to script list creation.  Is there a way to run newlist and take it's input from a file?


You don't need to. Just specify the -q option and the listname, owner
email and password on the command line, and newlist will silently
create the list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From dsilver at suddenlink.net  Wed Jul  9 05:32:09 2008
From: dsilver at suddenlink.net (Dana Silvernale)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 20:32:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscribe
Message-ID: <7162BEB6-58CA-43E1-84B8-126F50CC304F@suddenlink.net>



From mark_dara at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  9 09:35:07 2008
From: mark_dara at yahoo.com (Mak Dara)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:35:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Input text when admin rejected mail
Message-ID: <442391.57851.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I want to input my own text, when i reject mail. when i put it into "If you reject this post,
please explain (optional) " box, it's display like message below:

"Your request to the Gender mailing list

    Posting of your message titled "Hi"

has been rejected by the list moderator.  The moderator gave the
following reason for rejecting your request:

"Your mail has been rejected.

The gender mailing list is to be used as electronic means to share
information and knowledge, and to discuss on gender issues in
Cambodia. Any mail on non-related issues will be rejected."

Any questions or comments should be directed to the list administrator
at:    gender-owner at lists.open.org.kh"

But when i rejected message, i want to send message below to sender 
"Your mail has been rejected. 

The gender mailing list is used as electronic communication mean to share information and knowledge, and to discuss on gender mailing issues on Cambodia. Any mail on non-related topic will be rejected. "

Please shard me your experience

Dara




      

From Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de  Wed Jul  9 10:30:54 2008
From: Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de (Sebastian Hagedorn)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 10:30:54 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Scripting List Creation
In-Reply-To: <C49907A6.10746%knabe@4j.lane.edu>
References: <C49907A6.10746%knabe@4j.lane.edu>
Message-ID: <F73E63703DF72277427553F2@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>

--On 8. Juli 2008 12:01:42 -0700 "Knabe, Troy" <knabe at 4j.lane.edu> wrote:

> I currently use ldap groups for mail lists, and I am wanting to migrate
> them to Mailman.  I have somewhere around 1000 lists, and want to be able
> to script list creation.  Is there a way to run newlist and take it's
> input from a file?

Not exactly, but there's something similar: after your script has executed 
newlist, it can configure the list from a file using config_list and 
populate the list from a file using add_members. We have a Perl script that 
does that.
-- 
     .:.Sebastian Hagedorn - RZKR-R1 (Geb?ude 52), Zimmer 18.:.
Zentrum f?r angewandte Informatik - Universit?tsweiter Service RRZK
.:.Universit?t zu K?ln / Cologne University - ? +49-221-478-5587.:.
                   .:.:.:.Skype: shagedorn.:.:.:.
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From RATKINSON at tbs-ltd.co.uk  Wed Jul  9 11:36:05 2008
From: RATKINSON at tbs-ltd.co.uk (Atkinson, Robert)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:36:05 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using MailMan To Hide Addresses
In-Reply-To: <4873C1AE.2070902@shub-internet.org>
References: <C2C319C4C1CC7D46B2D7815BE3A2753E03CECE10@coxsrv-3.uk.randomhouse.com> 
	<4873C1AE.2070902@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <C2C319C4C1CC7D46B2D7815BE3A2753E03CECE29@coxsrv-3.uk.randomhouse.com>

Thanks for your comments, Brad.

I've contacted a couple of companies on the Hosting Services list, as the
Consultancy list is actually empty. Everything else everybody's told me seems
like MailMan will do the job, although the Python aspect (or my complete lack
of knowledge of it) could be a problem.

Rob.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Knowles [mailto:brad at shub-internet.org] 
Sent: 08 July 2008 20:36
To: Atkinson, Robert
Cc: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Using MailMan To Hide Addresses

Atkinson, Robert wrote:
> I have a unique problem where I need to use MailMan (or another
application)
> to hide my users email addresses.
>  
> Basically, I need to create a single address that a company ('Global
> Supplies') will email me on, e.g. 'community at mycompany.com'
> <mailto:'community at mycompany.com'> . When the email gets to me, I need to
> check and release it. It will then be distributed to all the users on the
> 'community at mycompany.com' list, BUT must still appear as if it came from
the
> 'Global Supplies' email address, and not mine.
>  
> I'd like to know if MailMan can do this, if you know of any companies that
> use MailMan where I can buy a managed service, or any other
software/services
> where I can achieve the same goals.

That sounds like a standard moderated mailing list.  Unless you choose the 
functions to convert it into an anonymous list, the sender's address will 
always appear to be that of the original sender (i.e., the "From:" header is 
not modified), pretty much regardless of what else may be done to the
message.

As a moderator, you would get an e-mail message telling you that there is 
something waiting in the moderator queue, you fire up a web browser to go 
look at the queue and take action on it, and any approved messages should 
then show up on the list.

Of course, in the default configuration the sender is going to get a notice 
that their message is being held for moderation, which is good in most 
circumstances, but maybe not what you want here.


 From the looks of it, I think you want to talk to some Python/Mailman 
service providers and get a more direct in-person discussion over what the 
software can and cannot do for you, what kinds of fees they charge for their 
services, etc....

I'd suggest starting with the links in the "Mailman Community" page at 
<http://wiki.list.org/display/COM/Home> and check out both hosting services 
and consulting services.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

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From knabe at 4j.lane.edu  Wed Jul  9 16:36:01 2008
From: knabe at 4j.lane.edu (Knabe, Troy)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:36:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] issues with mm_cfg.py
Message-ID: <947CB9157E57934A8C3213BA68DB2F2450ADA9A1@mail2.ad.4j.lane.edu>

This is my mm_cfg.py but it doesn't appear that mailman is utilizing it.  I had to change my DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST in Defaults.py in order for it to take affect on install, and now I am trying to set the DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER and it is not using this one.  Any insights?

cat mm_cfg.py
# -*- python -*-

# Copyright (C) 1998,1999,2000,2001,2002 by the Free Software Foundation, Inc.
#
# This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
# modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
# as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2
# of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
#
# This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
# but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
# MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
# GNU General Public License for more details.
#
# You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
# along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software
# Foundation, Inc., 51 Franklin Street, Fifth Floor, Boston, MA 02110-1301, USA.

"""This module contains your site-specific settings.

>From a brand new distribution it should be copied to mm_cfg.py.  If you
already have an mm_cfg.py, be careful to add in only the new settings you
want.  Mailman's installation procedure will never overwrite your mm_cfg.py
file.

The complete set of distributed defaults, with documentation, are in the file
Defaults.py.  In mm_cfg.py, override only those you want to change, after the

  from Defaults import *

line (see below).

Note that these are just default settings; many can be overridden via the
administrator and user interfaces on a per-list or per-user basis.

"""

###############################################
# Here's where we get the distributed defaults.

from Defaults import *

##################################################
# Put YOUR site-specific settings below this line.
IMAGE_LOGOS = '/images/'
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mydomain.district.edu'
DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER = """_______________________________________________
%(real_name)s mailing list
%(real_name)s@%(host_name)s
http://webserver.mydomain.district.edu/staff/mailing
"""

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul  9 16:51:18 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:51:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Input text when admin rejected mail
In-Reply-To: <442391.57851.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807090751180703b8badd91@msapiro>

Mak Dara wrote:

>I want to input my own text, when i reject mail. when i put it into "If you reject this post,
>please explain (optional) " box, it's display like message below:
>
>"Your request to the Gender mailing list
>
>    Posting of your message titled "Hi"
>
>has been rejected by the list moderator.  The moderator gave the
>following reason for rejecting your request:
>
>"Your mail has been rejected.
>
>The gender mailing list is to be used as electronic means to share
>information and knowledge, and to discuss on gender issues in
>Cambodia. Any mail on non-related issues will be rejected."
>
>Any questions or comments should be directed to the list administrator
>at:    gender-owner at lists.open.org.kh"
>
>But when i rejected message, i want to send message below to sender 
>"Your mail has been rejected. 
>
>The gender mailing list is used as electronic communication mean to share information and knowledge, and to discuss on gender mailing issues on Cambodia. Any mail on non-related topic will be rejected. "
>


The additional text you see in the notice comes from the template named
refuse.txt. See <http://wiki.list.org/x/jYA9> for information about
making edited templates to apply sitewide, by domain or by list.

Keep in mind however that if you remove the bulk of this text from the
template and then reject a post without giving a reason, the resultant
message to the poster will be very uninformative.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul  9 17:08:40 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:08:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] issues with mm_cfg.py
In-Reply-To: <947CB9157E57934A8C3213BA68DB2F2450ADA9A1@mail2.ad.4j.lane.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807090808400906b8bade72@msapiro>

Knabe, Troy wrote:

>This is my mm_cfg.py but it doesn't appear that mailman is utilizing it.  I had to change my DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST in Defaults.py in order for it to take affect on install, and now I am trying to set the DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER and it is not using this one.  Any insights?


See <http://wiki.list.org/x/mIA9>.

As for DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER, that is the default for lists created after
you made the change. It has no effect on exisitng lists. (more below)


>cat mm_cfg.py
<snip>
>###############################################
># Here's where we get the distributed defaults.
>
>from Defaults import *
>
>##################################################
># Put YOUR site-specific settings below this line.
>IMAGE_LOGOS = '/images/'
>DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mydomain.district.edu'
>DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER = """_______________________________________________
>%(real_name)s mailing list
>%(real_name)s@%(host_name)s
>http://webserver.mydomain.district.edu/staff/mailing
>"""


Also, both DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST and DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER are used in
Defaults.py to set other things, and those things are imported before
you make your changes, so you actually need

DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mydomain.district.edu'
VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER = as you have it
DEFAULT_DIGEST_FOOTER = DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER

Otherwise, the VIRTUAL_HOSTS table will retain the Defaults.py setting
for DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST, and similarly for DEFAULT_DIGEST_FOOTER.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From dandrews at visi.com  Wed Jul  9 18:11:12 2008
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 11:11:12 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List Member Set Back
Message-ID: <auto-000057764462@mailfront1.g2host.com>

I run a Cobalt RAQ550 server with about 125 Mailman lists on it.  On 
several occasions, one of the lists has had its membership roster set 
back to one from the past.  It turns out I had a defective UPS, and I 
would guess that it happened when there was a power glitch and some 
operation got upset, and the membership list was set back to an old one.

I have two questions:

First, am I right in my guess of the problem,

and second, the list that is put in place has been, in some instances 
a couple years old.

I have a new UPS, so hope this happens less, but if it does, is there 
any way to make the list that is auto restored more recent?

David Andrews


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul  9 23:13:46 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:13:46 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List Member Set Back
In-Reply-To: <auto-000057764462@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070914134601098439ee5b@msapiro>

David Andrews wrote:

>I run a Cobalt RAQ550 server with about 125 Mailman lists on it.  On 
>several occasions, one of the lists has had its membership roster set 
>back to one from the past.  It turns out I had a defective UPS, and I 
>would guess that it happened when there was a power glitch and some 
>operation got upset, and the membership list was set back to an old one.
>
>I have two questions:
>
>First, am I right in my guess of the problem,
>
>and second, the list that is put in place has been, in some instances 
>a couple years old.
>
>I have a new UPS, so hope this happens less, but if it does, is there 
>any way to make the list that is auto restored more recent?


Look through your Mailman lists/* directories. For any given list,
there should be a lists/listname directory with a few files including
a config.pck and a config.pck.last file. If there are also config.db
and config.db.last files, remove them. These are old files left ofer
from a Mailman 2.0.x to 2.1.x migration and their contents are that
old.

What happens is this. When Mailman instantiates a list, it tries to
load the list data from config.pck. If that fails, it falls back to
config.pck.last, config.db and config.db.last in that order. So if
both config.pck and config.pck.last (the immediately prior generation)
get corrupted in a power outage so they can't be loaded, Mailman may
fall back to the out of date config.db, so remove those old config.db*
files to prevent that.

Then if in the future, both config.pck and config.pck.last should
become unusable, that list will just not work and you will have to
restore config.pck from a (hopefully recent) backup, but at least it
won't silently fall back to years old data.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From dandrews at visi.com  Wed Jul  9 23:54:55 2008
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 16:54:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List Member Set Back
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008070914134601098439ee5b@msapiro>
References: <auto-000057764462@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<PC18702008070914134601098439ee5b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <auto-000057830362@mailfront1.g2host.com>

Thanks as always for your clear and accurate answer.  You amaze me 
with your work in development, and support, your knowledge, your 
patience etc...

Thanks!

Dave

At 04:13 PM 7/9/2008, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>David Andrews wrote:
>
> >I run a Cobalt RAQ550 server with about 125 Mailman lists on it.  On
> >several occasions, one of the lists has had its membership roster set
> >back to one from the past.  It turns out I had a defective UPS, and I
> >would guess that it happened when there was a power glitch and some
> >operation got upset, and the membership list was set back to an old one.
> >
> >I have two questions:
> >
> >First, am I right in my guess of the problem,
> >
> >and second, the list that is put in place has been, in some instances
> >a couple years old.
> >
> >I have a new UPS, so hope this happens less, but if it does, is there
> >any way to make the list that is auto restored more recent?
>
>
>Look through your Mailman lists/* directories. For any given list,
>there should be a lists/listname directory with a few files including
>a config.pck and a config.pck.last file. If there are also config.db
>and config.db.last files, remove them. These are old files left ofer
>from a Mailman 2.0.x to 2.1.x migration and their contents are that
>old.
>
>What happens is this. When Mailman instantiates a list, it tries to
>load the list data from config.pck. If that fails, it falls back to
>config.pck.last, config.db and config.db.last in that order. So if
>both config.pck and config.pck.last (the immediately prior generation)
>get corrupted in a power outage so they can't be loaded, Mailman may
>fall back to the out of date config.db, so remove those old config.db*
>files to prevent that.
>
>Then if in the future, both config.pck and config.pck.last should
>become unusable, that list will just not work and you will have to
>restore config.pck from a (hopefully recent) backup, but at least it
>won't silently fall back to years old data.
>
>--
>Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
>San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.7/1542 - Release Date: 
>7/9/2008 6:50 AM


From knabe at 4j.lane.edu  Thu Jul 10 00:03:28 2008
From: knabe at 4j.lane.edu (Knabe, Troy)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:03:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] issues with mm_cfg.py
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807090808400906b8bade72@msapiro>
References: <947CB9157E57934A8C3213BA68DB2F2450ADA9A1@mail2.ad.4j.lane.edu>
	<PC1870200807090808400906b8bade72@msapiro>
Message-ID: <947CB9157E57934A8C3213BA68DB2F2450ADA9AC@mail2.ad.4j.lane.edu>



As for DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER, that is the default for lists created after
you made the change. It has no effect on exisitng lists. (more below)

I understand that, but it didn't seem to work that way, I will test it again.

So here is my snip of mm_cfg.py, my concern is that my "mailhost" is mydomain.district.edu, but my DEFAULT_URL_HOST (I believe) is mailmanserver.mydomain.district.edu doesn't this setting set it to mydomain.district.edu?

##################################################
# Put YOUR site-specific settings below this line.
IMAGE_LOGOS = '/images/'
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mydomain.district.edu'
VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER = """_______________________________________________
%(real_name)s mailing list
%(real_name)s@%(host_name)s
http://server.mydomain.district.edu/staff/mailing
"""
DEFAULT_DIGEST_FOOTER = DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER

>cat mm_cfg.py
<snip>
>###############################################
># Here's where we get the distributed defaults.
>
>from Defaults import *
>
>##################################################
># Put YOUR site-specific settings below this line.
>IMAGE_LOGOS = '/images/'
>DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mydomain.district.edu'
>DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER = """_______________________________________________
>%(real_name)s mailing list
>%(real_name)s@%(host_name)s
>http://webserver.mydomain.district.edu/staff/mailing
>"""


Also, both DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST and DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER are used in
Defaults.py to set other things, and those things are imported before
you make your changes, so you actually need

DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mydomain.district.edu'
VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER = as you have it
DEFAULT_DIGEST_FOOTER = DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER

Otherwise, the VIRTUAL_HOSTS table will retain the Defaults.py setting
for DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST, and similarly for DEFAULT_DIGEST_FOOTER.

--
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From knabe at 4j.lane.edu  Thu Jul 10 00:14:48 2008
From: knabe at 4j.lane.edu (Knabe, Troy)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:14:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] slow sending
Message-ID: <947CB9157E57934A8C3213BA68DB2F2450ADA9AF@mail2.ad.4j.lane.edu>

My messages sent to lists are being placed in the mailq and taking 5-15 minutes to be delivered.  I use Sophos's PureMessage for Spam/Anti-virus scanning so part of sendmail config hands the message off to a milter, but then it is being placed in the mailq instead of delivering the message.  Is this normal, it seems my messages to this list are delivered faster than to my own.  I am using sendmail for my mta.

Thanks
-Troy

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul 10 00:24:01 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:24:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] issues with mm_cfg.py
In-Reply-To: <947CB9157E57934A8C3213BA68DB2F2450ADA9AC@mail2.ad.4j.lane.edu>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070915240106562f202891@msapiro>

Knabe, Troy wrote:
>
>As for DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER, that is the default for lists created after
>you made the change. It has no effect on exisitng lists. (more below)
>
>I understand that, but it didn't seem to work that way, I will test it again.
>
>So here is my snip of mm_cfg.py, my concern is that my "mailhost" is mydomain.district.edu, but my DEFAULT_URL_HOST (I believe) is mailmanserver.mydomain.district.edu doesn't this setting set it to mydomain.district.edu?
>
<snip>
>DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mydomain.district.edu'
>VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()
>add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)


No. What that setting says that the email domain for a list in the
'mailmanserver.mydomain.district.edu' web domain is
'mydomain.district.edu'.

The default web domain is still DEFAULT_URL_HOST.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul 10 00:35:35 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:35:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] slow sending
In-Reply-To: <947CB9157E57934A8C3213BA68DB2F2450ADA9AF@mail2.ad.4j.lane.edu>
Message-ID: <PC18702008070915353503757e018fda@msapiro>

Knabe, Troy wrote:

>My messages sent to lists are being placed in the mailq and taking 5-15 minutes to be delivered.  I use Sophos's PureMessage for Spam/Anti-virus scanning so part of sendmail config hands the message off to a milter, but then it is being placed in the mailq instead of delivering the message.  Is this normal, it seems my messages to this list are delivered faster than to my own.  I am using sendmail for my mta.


I assume you're talking about messages to Mailman. If I'm wrong, and
you're talking about messages from Mailman, these should not be spam
filtered at all. They should have been spam filtered on the way in.

In any case, these seem to be sendmail questions, not Mailman
questions. There is some sendmail specific information at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/GoA9>, but it mostly has to do with outgoing
mail.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From savoy at uleth.ca  Thu Jul 10 00:46:14 2008
From: savoy at uleth.ca (Savoy, Jim)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 16:46:14 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Muti-Mailman install
In-Reply-To: <485A8FFE.8000608@python.org>
References: <4858C199.6000500@gmail.com>	<16288-61549@sneakemail.com>	<48595B2B.1040607@gmail.com>	<13061-77666@sneakemail.com><4859FEEE.7090607@gmail.com>
	<485A8FFE.8000608@python.org>
Message-ID: <366860B666E21241A76B26156DC56E0BA00947@EXCHCL2.uleth.ca>


> Brad Knowles wrote:

> Correct.  The Mailman developers feel that forcing all 
> replies to go back to the list causes much more harm than 
> good.

For a real-world example: We run several thousand lists here
at our university (not all in Mailman) and we had a class list
set up with "replies go to list" (the professor/owner had inadvertantly
changed that setting from the default). One night, the professor sent
out
a message to the class list, giving them some instructions or something.
Well one student on the list didn't realize this and thought the
prof had sent the message only to her, basically targetting her (I guess
she didn't look at the headers). She replied with a pretty personal
message
back to the prof, and it went to the entire class (180 students). She
was
so embarrassed and humiliated the next day to know that entire class had
read her personal message and were talking about her, that she dropped
the class.

This is basically why you want people to specifically address the list,
if they mean to send to it. Sure it was her fault, but it's wiser to
use the "strongly recommended" defaults than to try to teach a revolving
group of 15,000 students an email lesson.

 - jim -



From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Jul 10 01:06:49 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 18:06:49 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] slow sending
In-Reply-To: <947CB9157E57934A8C3213BA68DB2F2450ADA9AF@mail2.ad.4j.lane.edu>
References: <947CB9157E57934A8C3213BA68DB2F2450ADA9AF@mail2.ad.4j.lane.edu>
Message-ID: <48754489.3090300@shub-internet.org>

Knabe, Troy wrote:
> My messages sent to lists are being placed in the mailq and taking 5-15
> minutes to be delivered.  I use Sophos's PureMessage for Spam/Anti-virus
> scanning so part of sendmail config hands the message off to a milter,
> but then it is being placed in the mailq instead of delivering the
> message.  Is this normal, it seems my messages to this list are delivered
> faster than to my own.  I am using sendmail for my mta.

Sounds to me like you're doing anti-spam/anti-virus filtering after the 
mailing list.  Don't do that.

Do all your filtering on inbound, and then set up another instance of the 
MTA with all filtering turned off, and listening only to a certain 
designated private high-numbered port on the loopback/127.0.0.1 interface, 
and then set up Mailman to use this second instance of your MTA for sending 
all outbound mail.

I'm sure this is covered in the FAQ.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From cyndi at tikvah.com  Thu Jul 10 04:48:18 2008
From: cyndi at tikvah.com (Cyndi Norwitz)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 19:48:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Message-ID: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>

Sigh...this is my ISP's response to my request.  At least they did take it
seriously and consider it (the option is Mark's suggestion of a severe
limit on numbers of subscribers listowners could add per
day/week/whatever).

"We have decided that we are not going to implement this option on our
current Listserv setup.

"Users must be able to reply to their subscription notifications.  This
alone prevents abuse and protects everyone involved here.

"If the person in question has an email address, and wants to be on a
mailing list, they should be able to respond to one message; confirming
their desire to be involved."

Obviously, I disagree.  As do all the other mailing list providers that I'm
aware of.  At least it's the only large change they've made to the software
so it's still pretty usable.

Thanks for your help, Mark.

Cyndi

P.S. I still don't understand why they insist on an invite model.  Why not
just let the listowner add people but have it not take place until the
person responds?  My issue isn't with requiring confirmation (though I
think written confirmation should be good enough) but with making someone
who might be very computer illiterate go to a website to sign up.


From yahoo at jimpop.com  Thu Jul 10 04:54:59 2008
From: yahoo at jimpop.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:54:59 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <7ff145960807091954t7ce890bejbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:48 PM, Cyndi Norwitz <cyndi at tikvah.com> wrote:
> Obviously, I disagree.  As do all the other mailing list providers that I'm
> aware of.

Not me.  If I were setting up a Mailman system that allowed un-trusted
users to admin lists, then I would remove the bulk-subscription stuff
ASAP.   Just saying.

-Jim P.

From cyndi at tikvah.com  Thu Jul 10 05:09:56 2008
From: cyndi at tikvah.com (Cyndi Norwitz)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 20:09:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <7ff145960807091954t7ce890bejbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com>
	(yahoo@jimpop.com)
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<7ff145960807091954t7ce890bejbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic.net>

   Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:54:59 -0400
   From: "Jim Popovitch" <yahoo at jimpop.com>

   On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:48 PM, Cyndi Norwitz <cyndi at tikvah.com> wrote:
   > Obviously, I disagree.  As do all the other mailing list providers that I'm
   > aware of.

   Not me.  If I were setting up a Mailman system that allowed un-trusted
   users to admin lists, then I would remove the bulk-subscription stuff
   ASAP.   Just saying.

I appreciate your input.  I am curious what other server owners/ISP's do.
>From the talk on this list, it would seem that any restriction on what
listowners can do is considered a violation.  Yahoogroups allows 10 direct
adds per day and makes you click a couple extra links to find the right
page.  I believe the other large mailing list providers are similar. 

Assuming you ran a system with users you didn't know well enough to judge,
what sorts of options would you consider implementing?  If any...

Cyndi


From yahoo at jimpop.com  Thu Jul 10 05:18:29 2008
From: yahoo at jimpop.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 23:18:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic.net>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<7ff145960807091954t7ce890bejbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com>
	<200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <7ff145960807092018k6ab04cber9b256e2bfd46a89d@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 11:09 PM, Cyndi Norwitz <cyndi at tikvah.com> wrote:
> Assuming you ran a system with users you didn't know well enough to judge,
> what sorts of options would you consider implementing?  If any...

Excellent question.  I would have to think, given the prevalence and
persistence of spammers, that any ability to force unconfirmed (i.e.
non-opt-in) subscriptions would be a violation of most ISP's TOS.   So
to me, providing the capabilities to disable mass subscriptions would
be a good mmcfg.py option.

-Jim P.

From mrcham at wsa.net  Thu Jul 10 05:02:27 2008
From: mrcham at wsa.net (mrcham at wsa.net)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 23:02:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using Mailman at School
Message-ID: <33093.68.47.98.185.1215658947.squirrel@webmail.wsa.net>

I'll be begin by saying I greatly appreciate those who will take the time
to provide me with some guidance and assistance.

BACKGROUND
Our school has access to a Mailman (version 2.1.9.cp2) List Server. We
just want to create a "Master" email list to send announcements out to
parents and students.
Mailman is provided as a service by our email host so we can ONLY ACCESS
Mailman via a web interface.

If we create a list with 1000 different parent email addresses can we
group them into different lists?  The key thing here is if we update one
address that change would be reflected in all lists.  If so how?

EXAMPLE
>From those 1000 address I tag/mark all the 8th grade parents addresses and
call that list Grade08.
Then I tag/mark some more addresses as 12th grade parents and call that
list Grade12, and so on.
We could make a third list called Soccer Team and tag some addresses from
both the Grade08 and Grade12 lists.

AVAILABLE OPTIONS
Having read the FAQs, Archives and prior posts it seems like it has
something to do with Umbrella Lists, Aliases or both.
Since we can only use the program (Mailman version 2.1.9.cp2) via a web
interface we can do this:
1. Create a list that we want
2. Then we can modify that list.  The modifications we can do are grouped
together as follows:

[General Options]
Passwords
Language options
Membership Management...
Non-digest options
Digest options

[Configuration Categories ]
Privacy options...
Bounce processing
Archiving Options
Mail<->News gateways
Auto-responder
Content filtering
Topics

[ Other Administrative Activities ]
Tend to pending moderator requests
Go to the general list information page
Edit the public HTML pages and text files
Go to list archives


From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Jul 10 06:36:16 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:36:16 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic.net>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<7ff145960807091954t7ce890bejbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com>
	<200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <877ibunynz.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Cyndi Norwitz writes:

 > I appreciate your input.  I am curious what other server owners/
 > ISP's do.  From the talk on this list, it would seem that any
 > restriction on what listowners can do is considered a violation.

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to call it a violation, but I would not
want to work under such restrictions myself.

 > Assuming you ran a system with users you didn't know well enough to
 > judge, what sorts of options would you consider implementing?  If
 > any...

I think that probably what I would consider doing if the market would
bear it, and courts would enforce it, is restrict mass subscription
privileges to people willing to pay upfront for a multi-year contract,
or who pay substantially higher prices for a premium service.  If they
violate the TOS, they get no refund.  If they've been well-behaved but
want out early, I'd pay them back pro rata.  I also wouldn't advertise
the service beyond the bare minimum ... only people who ask for it get
it.

But somebody who's been around for years and is running a reputable
list, hey, that's not that hard to check.  I would think it would be
easy enough for them to find out that much about you and your service;
I think they *do* know you well enough.

I'm not criticizing their policy, especially if they're inexpensive,
though.  Making such judgments is not cheap.



From bob001 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 10 07:32:08 2008
From: bob001 at gmail.com (bob 001)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:32:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [dkim-milter-discuss] dkim + mailman + postfix
	- dkim=fail. <<<RESOLVED>>>
Message-ID: <29be4f4d0807092232k7ca1f5bam4c21d82f94c55672@mail.gmail.com>

awesome!!! It worked. Thanks so much Jason and everyone.

It was exactly same issue that you identified. Appreciate great help from
Jason, Mouss and team.

Following changes were done in mailman configuration to make it work.
--
REMOVE_DKIM_HEADER = YES in defaults.py
SMTPPORT=587                          in mm_cfg.py ----- IMPORTANT,
POSTIX/DKIMPROXY.
--

after above changes and bounce using mailmanctl, yahoo shows domainkeys=pass
and gmail too , dkim=pass.

Thanks again.
Bob.

On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 7:26 AM, Jason Long <jlong at messiah.edu> wrote:

> My first guess would be that Mailman is submitting the mail using port 25.
> See if you can configure Mailman to use port 587 instead.
> Jason
>
>
>
> >>> "bob 001" <bob001 at gmail.com> 7/7/08 12:26 PM >>>
>  Also,
> when I send the simple message from ageoftruth server on one-to-one basis
> to
> yahoo id, it says domainkeys=pass.
> That means it does add the signature.
>
> Only when listserv gets involved, postfix and dkimproxy for some reason
> are
> not adding the signature.
>
> Also, current setting in mailman's Defaults.py is :- REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS =
> No.
>
> So, it seems postfix and dkimproxy is not adding the signature at all for
> some reason. It seems, my configuration is not OK :-(. Kindly help.
>
> - Regards,
> Bob.
>
>

From mark_dara at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 10 08:57:36 2008
From: mark_dara at yahoo.com (Mak Dara)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 23:57:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 53, Issue 24
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2918.1215667939.20627.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <455157.74326.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Ok, thank everybody for all experience . 

--- On Wed, 7/9/08, mailman-users-request at python.org <mailman-users-request at python.org> wrote:
From: mailman-users-request at python.org <mailman-users-request at python.org>
Subject: Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 53, Issue 24
To: mailman-users at python.org
Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 10:32 PM

Send Mailman-Users mailing list submissions to
	mailman-users at python.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	mailman-users-request at python.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	mailman-users-owner at python.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Mailman-Users digest..."Today's Topics:

   1. Re: slow sending (Mark Sapiro)
   2. Re: Muti-Mailman install (Savoy, Jim)
   3. Re: slow sending (Brad Knowles)
   4. Re: Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription (Cyndi Norwitz)
   5. Re: Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription (Jim Popovitch)
   6. Re: Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription (Cyndi Norwitz)
   7. Re: Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription (Jim Popovitch)
   8. Using Mailman at School (mrcham at wsa.net)
   9. Re: Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
      (Stephen J. Turnbull)
  10. Re: [dkim-milter-discuss] dkim + mailman + postfix	-
      dkim=fail. <<<RESOLVED>>> (bob 001)Knabe, Troy wrote:

>My messages sent to lists are being placed in the mailq and taking 5-15
minutes to be delivered.  I use Sophos's PureMessage for Spam/Anti-virus
scanning so part of sendmail config hands the message off to a milter, but then
it is being placed in the mailq instead of delivering the message.  Is this
normal, it seems my messages to this list are delivered faster than to my own. 
I am using sendmail for my mta.


I assume you're talking about messages to Mailman. If I'm wrong, and
you're talking about messages from Mailman, these should not be spam
filtered at all. They should have been spam filtered on the way in.

In any case, these seem to be sendmail questions, not Mailman
questions. There is some sendmail specific information at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/GoA9>, but it mostly has to do with outgoing
mail.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan> Brad Knowles wrote:

> Correct.  The Mailman developers feel that forcing all 
> replies to go back to the list causes much more harm than 
> good.

For a real-world example: We run several thousand lists here
at our university (not all in Mailman) and we had a class list
set up with "replies go to list" (the professor/owner had
inadvertantly
changed that setting from the default). One night, the professor sent
out
a message to the class list, giving them some instructions or something.
Well one student on the list didn't realize this and thought the
prof had sent the message only to her, basically targetting her (I guess
she didn't look at the headers). She replied with a pretty personal
message
back to the prof, and it went to the entire class (180 students). She
was
so embarrassed and humiliated the next day to know that entire class had
read her personal message and were talking about her, that she dropped
the class.

This is basically why you want people to specifically address the list,
if they mean to send to it. Sure it was her fault, but it's wiser to
use the "strongly recommended" defaults than to try to teach a
revolving
group of 15,000 students an email lesson.

 - jim -Knabe, Troy wrote:
> My messages sent to lists are being placed in the mailq and taking 5-15
> minutes to be delivered.  I use Sophos's PureMessage for
Spam/Anti-virus
> scanning so part of sendmail config hands the message off to a milter,
> but then it is being placed in the mailq instead of delivering the
> message.  Is this normal, it seems my messages to this list are delivered
> faster than to my own.  I am using sendmail for my mta.

Sounds to me like you're doing anti-spam/anti-virus filtering after the 
mailing list.  Don't do that.

Do all your filtering on inbound, and then set up another instance of the 
MTA with all filtering turned off, and listening only to a certain 
designated private high-numbered port on the loopback/127.0.0.1 interface, 
and then set up Mailman to use this second instance of your MTA for sending 
all outbound mail.

I'm sure this is covered in the FAQ.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>Sigh...this is my ISP's response to my request.  At least they did take it
seriously and consider it (the option is Mark's suggestion of a severe
limit on numbers of subscribers listowners could add per
day/week/whatever).

"We have decided that we are not going to implement this option on our
current Listserv setup.

"Users must be able to reply to their subscription notifications.  This
alone prevents abuse and protects everyone involved here.

"If the person in question has an email address, and wants to be on a
mailing list, they should be able to respond to one message; confirming
their desire to be involved."

Obviously, I disagree.  As do all the other mailing list providers that I'm
aware of.  At least it's the only large change they've made to the
software
so it's still pretty usable.

Thanks for your help, Mark.

Cyndi

P.S. I still don't understand why they insist on an invite model.  Why not
just let the listowner add people but have it not take place until the
person responds?  My issue isn't with requiring confirmation (though I
think written confirmation should be good enough) but with making someone
who might be very computer illiterate go to a website to sign up.On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:48 PM, Cyndi Norwitz <cyndi at tikvah.com> wrote:
> Obviously, I disagree.  As do all the other mailing list providers that
I'm
> aware of.

Not me.  If I were setting up a Mailman system that allowed un-trusted
users to admin lists, then I would remove the bulk-subscription stuff
ASAP.   Just saying.

-Jim P.Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:54:59 -0400
   From: "Jim Popovitch" <yahoo at jimpop.com>

   On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:48 PM, Cyndi Norwitz <cyndi at tikvah.com>
wrote:
   > Obviously, I disagree.  As do all the other mailing list providers that
I'm
   > aware of.

   Not me.  If I were setting up a Mailman system that allowed un-trusted
   users to admin lists, then I would remove the bulk-subscription stuff
   ASAP.   Just saying.

I appreciate your input.  I am curious what other server owners/ISP's do.
>From the talk on this list, it would seem that any restriction on what
listowners can do is considered a violation.  Yahoogroups allows 10 direct
adds per day and makes you click a couple extra links to find the right
page.  I believe the other large mailing list providers are similar. 

Assuming you ran a system with users you didn't know well enough to judge,
what sorts of options would you consider implementing?  If any...

CyndiOn Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 11:09 PM, Cyndi Norwitz <cyndi at tikvah.com> wrote:
> Assuming you ran a system with users you didn't know well enough to
judge,
> what sorts of options would you consider implementing?  If any...

Excellent question.  I would have to think, given the prevalence and
persistence of spammers, that any ability to force unconfirmed (i.e.
non-opt-in) subscriptions would be a violation of most ISP's TOS.   So
to me, providing the capabilities to disable mass subscriptions would
be a good mmcfg.py option.

-Jim P.I'll be begin by saying I greatly appreciate those who will take the time
to provide me with some guidance and assistance.

BACKGROUND
Our school has access to a Mailman (version 2.1.9.cp2) List Server. We
just want to create a "Master" email list to send announcements out
to
parents and students.
Mailman is provided as a service by our email host so we can ONLY ACCESS
Mailman via a web interface.

If we create a list with 1000 different parent email addresses can we
group them into different lists?  The key thing here is if we update one
address that change would be reflected in all lists.  If so how?

EXAMPLE
>From those 1000 address I tag/mark all the 8th grade parents addresses and
call that list Grade08.
Then I tag/mark some more addresses as 12th grade parents and call that
list Grade12, and so on.
We could make a third list called Soccer Team and tag some addresses from
both the Grade08 and Grade12 lists.

AVAILABLE OPTIONS
Having read the FAQs, Archives and prior posts it seems like it has
something to do with Umbrella Lists, Aliases or both.
Since we can only use the program (Mailman version 2.1.9.cp2) via a web
interface we can do this:
1. Create a list that we want
2. Then we can modify that list.  The modifications we can do are grouped
together as follows:

[General Options]
Passwords
Language options
Membership Management...
Non-digest options
Digest options

[Configuration Categories ]
Privacy options...
Bounce processing
Archiving Options
Mail<->News gateways
Auto-responder
Content filtering
Topics

[ Other Administrative Activities ]
Tend to pending moderator requests
Go to the general list information page
Edit the public HTML pages and text files
Go to list archivesCyndi Norwitz writes:

 > I appreciate your input.  I am curious what other server owners/
 > ISP's do.  From the talk on this list, it would seem that any
 > restriction on what listowners can do is considered a violation.

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to call it a violation, but I would not
want to work under such restrictions myself.

 > Assuming you ran a system with users you didn't know well enough to
 > judge, what sorts of options would you consider implementing?  If
 > any...

I think that probably what I would consider doing if the market would
bear it, and courts would enforce it, is restrict mass subscription
privileges to people willing to pay upfront for a multi-year contract,
or who pay substantially higher prices for a premium service.  If they
violate the TOS, they get no refund.  If they've been well-behaved but
want out early, I'd pay them back pro rata.  I also wouldn't advertise
the service beyond the bare minimum ... only people who ask for it get
it.

But somebody who's been around for years and is running a reputable
list, hey, that's not that hard to check.  I would think it would be
easy enough for them to find out that much about you and your service;
I think they *do* know you well enough.

I'm not criticizing their policy, especially if they're inexpensive,
though.  Making such judgments is not cheap.awesome!!! It worked. Thanks so much Jason and everyone.

It was exactly same issue that you identified. Appreciate great help from
Jason, Mouss and team.

Following changes were done in mailman configuration to make it work.
--
REMOVE_DKIM_HEADER = YES in defaults.py
SMTPPORT=587                          in mm_cfg.py ----- IMPORTANT,
POSTIX/DKIMPROXY.
--

after above changes and bounce using mailmanctl, yahoo shows domainkeys=pass
and gmail too , dkim=pass.

Thanks again.
Bob.

On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 7:26 AM, Jason Long <jlong at messiah.edu> wrote:

> My first guess would be that Mailman is submitting the mail using port 25.
> See if you can configure Mailman to use port 587 instead.
> Jason
>
>
>
> >>> "bob 001" <bob001 at gmail.com> 7/7/08 12:26 PM
>>>
>  Also,
> when I send the simple message from ageoftruth server on one-to-one basis
> to
> yahoo id, it says domainkeys=pass.
> That means it does add the signature.
>
> Only when listserv gets involved, postfix and dkimproxy for some reason
> are
> not adding the signature.
>
> Also, current setting in mailman's Defaults.py is :-
REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS =
> No.
>
> So, it seems postfix and dkimproxy is not adding the signature at all for
> some reason. It seems, my configuration is not OK :-(. Kindly help.
>
> - Regards,
> Bob.
>
>------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list
Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/


      

From walter at translate.org.za  Thu Jul 10 09:26:13 2008
From: walter at translate.org.za (Walter Leibbrandt)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:26:13 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Easier list administration
Message-ID: <4875B995.4080205@translate.org.za>

Hi,

This is just to introduce a little (Mailman-related) project of mine to 
all list administrators that might find it useful. I hope that it is not 
inappropriate for me to be posting it on this list, but here goes.

After recently being made administrator of 19-odd mailing lists I've 
started mailmanman (https://sourceforge.net/projects/mailmanman/) as a 
way to script web-based list administration (in Python). As noted on the 
"Mailman Tips, Tricks, Scripts" page 
(http://starship.python.net/crew/jwt/mailman/#throughtheweb): "Effective 
Mailman administration really presumes shell access so that you can use 
the many tools available in the 'bin' directory for maintaining your 
lists. However if that is not allowed by your host, you can script the 
web interface using a local copy of Python to mimic what a human user 
would do with a web browser." That is exactly where mailmanman comes in. 
It mimics a user a with a browser that performs administration tasks.

The only features implemented so far is the ability to retrieve and 
discard held messages (which is what I currently need it to do).

Mailmanman is still *very* young, so if it may be useful to you, please 
try it and provide some feedback.

Regards,

Walter Leibbrandt

From maickel.pandie at gmail.com  Thu Jul 10 10:31:35 2008
From: maickel.pandie at gmail.com (Maickel Pandie)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:31:35 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hard drive is full
Message-ID: <6a215fbe0807100131q4f3d1e43s2c0448253aa03a72@mail.gmail.com>

Hi...

It's been 3 weeks since I launched my mailing list server using Mailman +
Postfix, 2 days ago my server stoped sending mail, when I search the problem
from log it telling me that the problem is disk drive is full. When I
restart my server I can't login into server because there are no free space
anymore in disk drive. First time this server work, it only consume 6 GB.
Now my 40 GB hard drive is full.

Is it right that Mailman save all email or attachment file in server
machine? if it's right what can I do to clear all email or attachment file
in server machine?

Need Help Please......

From mcnutt at utk.edu  Thu Jul 10 18:36:41 2008
From: mcnutt at utk.edu (McNutt Jr, William R)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:36:41 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Specific Users Members Mail Not Going Out
In-Reply-To: <mailman.16.1215684005.19246.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <0913EC48F2B05C4FBE4878BAFCABBFEC0251FABC@KFSVS2.utk.tennessee.edu>

I have an issue I am having difficulty tracking down.

I have two users, one of whom is my boss, whose messages are not showing
up on the list.  Instead, I get an "uncaught bounce notification" with
the message attached in my mailman_admin box.

The error text reads:
The attached message was received as a bounce, but either the bounce
format was not recognized, or no member addresses could be extracted
from it.  This mailing list has been configured to send all unrecognized
bounce messages to the list administrator(s).

Both are members of the list in question, the memberships are not
disabled.

Can anyone tell me where I should be looking?

Bill 

From terri at zone12.com  Thu Jul 10 18:59:54 2008
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:59:54 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Specific Users Members Mail Not Going Out
In-Reply-To: <0913EC48F2B05C4FBE4878BAFCABBFEC0251FABC@KFSVS2.utk.tennessee.edu>
References: <0913EC48F2B05C4FBE4878BAFCABBFEC0251FABC@KFSVS2.utk.tennessee.edu>
Message-ID: <F37A31DE-3B43-430B-9408-260A23751691@zone12.com>

On 10-Jul-08, at 12:36 PM, McNutt Jr, William R wrote:
> I have two users, one of whom is my boss, whose messages are not  
> showing
> up on the list.  Instead, I get an "uncaught bounce notification" with
> the message attached in my mailman_admin box.

Are they, perchance, sending to LISTNAME-bounces at yourdomain.com  
instead of LISTNAME at yourdomain.com?

Some mail clients seem to pick up the wrong address if you hit reply/ 
reply-all to an existing message, and anything that goes to -bounces  
is treated as a bounce.

Get them to specifically type in LISTNAME at yourdomain.com next time  
rather than hitting reply and see if that's the problem.

  Terri


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Thu Jul 10 19:02:12 2008
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:02:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Specific Users Members Mail Not Going Out
In-Reply-To: <0913EC48F2B05C4FBE4878BAFCABBFEC0251FABC@KFSVS2.utk.tennes
	see.edu>
References: <mailman.16.1215684005.19246.mailman-users@python.org>
	<0913EC48F2B05C4FBE4878BAFCABBFEC0251FABC@KFSVS2.utk.tennessee.edu>
Message-ID: <200807101656.m6AGujUH023596@newbox.eroded.org>

McNutt Jr, William R wrote:
>I have an issue I am having difficulty tracking down.
>
>I have two users, one of whom is my boss, whose messages are not showing
>up on the list.  Instead, I get an "uncaught bounce notification" with
>the message attached in my mailman_admin box.
>
>The error text reads:
>The attached message was received as a bounce, but either the bounce
>format was not recognized, or no member addresses could be extracted
>from it.  This mailing list has been configured to send all unrecognized
>bounce messages to the list administrator(s).
>
>Both are members of the list in question, the memberships are not
>disabled.
>
>Can anyone tell me where I should be looking?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

I have found that some users for reasons unknown (maybe a 
brain-damaged MUA?) send to the bounce address and not the list address.

Make sure they are posting to the list address and not mistakenly 
trying to post using the bounce address.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Thu Jul 10 19:19:53 2008
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Simon)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:19:53 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hard drive is full
In-Reply-To: <6a215fbe0807100131q4f3d1e43s2c0448253aa03a72@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a215fbe0807100131q4f3d1e43s2c0448253aa03a72@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <487644B9.2060704@libertytrek.org>

On 7/10/2008 4:31 AM, Maickel Pandie wrote:
> It's been 3 weeks since I launched my mailing list server using Mailman +
> Postfix, 2 days ago my server stoped sending mail, when I search the problem
> from log it telling me that the problem is disk drive is full. When I
> restart my server I can't login into server because there are no free space
> anymore in disk drive. First time this server work, it only consume 6 GB.
> Now my 40 GB hard drive is full.
> 
> Is it right that Mailman save all email or attachment file in server
> machine? if it's right what can I do to clear all email or attachment file
> in server machine?

This doesn't help you much now, but this is why it is a good idea to 
keep anything that stores data (mail, temp directories, etc) on a 
separate partition from your / directory.

You may have to connect the drive to a different computer to delete the 
archives (located in something like /var/lib/mailman/archives) - but if 
it were me, I'd just buy a [much] bigger hard drive and clone the old 
one to it... 40GB is pretty tiny these days... :)

Good luck, hope you get it sorted...

From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Jul 10 20:20:01 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:20:01 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <487652D1.1030206@shub-internet.org>

Cyndi Norwitz wrote:

> P.S. I still don't understand why they insist on an invite model.

Because all it takes is one listowner that doesn't understand and does a 
mass subscribe of a number of people, some of those people complain and then 
the entire ISP gets blacklisted.  And some blacklists you simply cannot 
*EVER* get them to remove you.

Personally, I would be happy to see the "mass subscribe" feature go away 
completely from the web interface of Mailman, or at least disabled by 
default.  But then I've been fighting spam since the time I was the Sr. 
Internet Mail Administrator at AOL in '95, and this is a subject that I feel 
very strongly about.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Jul 10 20:23:11 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:23:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Using Mailman at School
In-Reply-To: <33093.68.47.98.185.1215658947.squirrel@webmail.wsa.net>
References: <33093.68.47.98.185.1215658947.squirrel@webmail.wsa.net>
Message-ID: <4876538F.4050909@shub-internet.org>

mrcham at wsa.net wrote:

> EXAMPLE
> From those 1000 address I tag/mark all the 8th grade parents addresses and
> call that list Grade08.
> Then I tag/mark some more addresses as 12th grade parents and call that
> list Grade12, and so on.
> We could make a third list called Soccer Team and tag some addresses from
> both the Grade08 and Grade12 lists.

You can create umbrella and sister lists, so that you could have the 
separate Grade08 and Grade12 lists, and an AllGrades "umbrella" list that 
points to all the various separate grade lists.

But there's no way to pull up all addresses in a single list and then hit a 
"tag" button to also add them to a completely different list.  They would 
need to be subscribed individually to each list that they would be a member of.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Jul 10 20:29:01 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:29:01 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hard drive is full
In-Reply-To: <6a215fbe0807100131q4f3d1e43s2c0448253aa03a72@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a215fbe0807100131q4f3d1e43s2c0448253aa03a72@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <487654ED.2070003@shub-internet.org>

Maickel Pandie wrote:

>                        First time this server work, it only consume 6 GB.
> Now my 40 GB hard drive is full.

For a server, especially a mailing list server, 40GB is ... very small. 
Most servers I know of would probably have hundreds of GB available for the 
OS, the archives, etc....

> Is it right that Mailman save all email or attachment file in server
> machine?

Yup.  It's called an archive.

>           if it's right what can I do to clear all email or attachment file
> in server machine?

You could blow away the entire archive, but then you wouldn't have an 
archive of the traffic on the mailing list.

Not really sure we can provide much help here.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Thu Jul 10 20:28:46 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:28:46 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass  Subscription
In-Reply-To: <200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic.net>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<7ff145960807091954t7ce890bejbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com>
	<200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20080710182911.BEDF35F5ED@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>

Hi friends.

I think that bulk adding is a dangerous thing to allow, from the host's viewpoint at a minimum. Who's to say what unscrupulous a-holes are ready to take advantage of that ability.

That said, my own need calls for the ability to do just that. We are qualifying individual supporters of our nonprofit outside of the list, via snail mail, sign-up sheets, and phone contact. We need to grease the skids for these folks as much as possible. It would seem flaky to make them hoop jump twice. Dealing with confirmed members and donors is MUCH different than dealing with the general public.

That also said, we still get occasional folks that say, "why the tarnation did you add me to your mail list" even when they specifically requested it--they forget what they requested, I suppose. At least they respect us enough not to complain to our host or spamcop.

Dreamhost allows subscribing using either "Subscribe" or "Invite." I do not know if they have found a way to put limits on the numbers subscribed without opt-in, but they do allow it.

It's funny, their announcement list setup pages have strict anti-spam warnings, but the discussion lists have no such thing.

And on the mass subscribe page, the default is "subscribe" and not "invite" which seems to me to be an error.

Cyndi Norwitz wrote at 08:09 PM 7/9/2008:
 
>   On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:48 PM, Cyndi Norwitz <cyndi at tikvah.com> wrote:
>   > Obviously, I disagree.  As do all the other mailing list providers that I'm
>   > aware of.
>
>   Not me.  If I were setting up a Mailman system that allowed un-trusted
>   users to admin lists, then I would remove the bulk-subscription stuff
>   ASAP.   Just saying.
>
>I appreciate your input.  I am curious what other server owners/ISP's do.
>>From the talk on this list, it would seem that any restriction on what
>listowners can do is considered a violation.  Yahoogroups allows 10 direct
>adds per day and makes you click a couple extra links to find the right
>page.  I believe the other large mailing list providers are similar. 
>
>Assuming you ran a system with users you didn't know well enough to judge,
>what sorts of options would you consider implementing?  If any...


- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org


From cyndi at tikvah.com  Thu Jul 10 20:34:11 2008
From: cyndi at tikvah.com (Cyndi Norwitz)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:34:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <487652D1.1030206@shub-internet.org> (message from Brad Knowles
	on Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:20:01 -0500)
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<487652D1.1030206@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <200807101834.m6AIYBx5025646@b.mail.sonic.net>

   Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:20:01 -0500
   From: Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>

   Cyndi Norwitz wrote:

   > P.S. I still don't understand why they insist on an invite model.

   Because all it takes is one listowner that doesn't understand and does a 
   mass subscribe of a number of people, some of those people complain and then 
   the entire ISP gets blacklisted.  And some blacklists you simply cannot 
   *EVER* get them to remove you.

Actually, by "invite model" I meant that the user had to click on a link
and confirm by signing up on the website.  But a fellow user at my ISP
tested it and pointed out that, while there is indeed an option to use the
link to sign up, you can simply reply to the invite message and that will
start your subscription.  So I stand corrected on that one.

   Personally, I would be happy to see the "mass subscribe" feature go away
   completely from the web interface of Mailman, or at least disabled by
   default.  But then I've been fighting spam since the time I was the Sr.
   Internet Mail Administrator at AOL in '95, and this is a subject that I
   feel very strongly about.

I have mixed feelings.  Obviously, as a listowner I know *I* do things
responsibly and want the tools to go with it.  As someone who could be the
victim of an irresponsible listowner, or trying to put myself into the
position of an ISP, I realize that the tool can be terribly misused and the
software should make it hard or impossible to do that.

The person at my ISP I spoke to on the phone said that, in the event of a
complaint, they would simply want proof that the person wanted to be
added.  Every single person I've added to lists I've run on other software
(or would add to MM lists if I could) falls into one of 3 categories:
someone who has tried and failed to subscribe her/himself and asks me to do
it (I keep the email trail); someone who signs up on a paper form and not
only gives their email but also checks a box saying "add me to the mailing
list" (I keep the paper); someone I am friends with or have a business
relationship with who asks me to add them (no paper trail here usually but
I could get the person to write email or call correcting any complaint they
might have made by accident (never happened so far)).  The ISP person said
that would be fine by him.

I really really hate having my ability to effectively run lists (or
websites or chats) curtailed because of the huge numbers of greedy jerks
out there.  I realize it can't be ignored but I am hoping there could be
some middle ground.  

I thought Mark's suggestion of limiting direct adds to a small number per
time unit, or my ISP's suggestion of being able to give particular lists or
listowners the ability to do direct adds (overruled by his superviser it
seems), to be quite reasonable.

Cyndi


From brian at emwd.com  Thu Jul 10 20:37:29 2008
From: brian at emwd.com (Brian Carpenter)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:37:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange problem with one mailman list
Message-ID: <028801c8e2bc$03a679f0$0af36dd0$@com>

Hi Everyone:

I am seeing a strange problem with a particular list on our server. We run
mailman on a cpanel box in a virtual host environment. The MTA is exim.

We are having a problem with one list on this server. It seems whenever the
list sends out a welcome message or an unsubscribe notification to a member,
it is appending -owner to the e-mail address. It will be something like
name-owner at domain.com when it should just be name at domain.com. This problem
does not affect any other list on the server, just this one particular list.
Also this issue only happens on subscribe/unsubscribe notifications. Posts
sent to the list are sent out fine.

Can someone shed some light on this?

Regards,
Brian
--------------------------------------
EMWD.com -  'Powered by Techies'
Blog.emwd.com - "Curious comments from a web hosting techie"




From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Jul 10 20:58:06 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:58:06 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass  Subscription
In-Reply-To: <20080710182911.BEDF35F5ED@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>	<7ff145960807091954t7ce890bejbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com>	<200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic.net>
	<20080710182911.BEDF35F5ED@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <48765BBE.1050201@shub-internet.org>

Michael Welch wrote:

> That said, my own need calls for the ability to do just that.

And I've used it myself on numerous occasions.  This is why I haven't made 
too much noise about stripping this function, or even turning it off by 
default.  I trust myself to use it, and I'm willing to trust most of my 
users on certain systems, but I don't trust anyone else.

Since I want to keep the feature for myself, I can't argue too loudly to 
remove it for everyone else.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Jul 10 21:00:05 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:00:05 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <200807101834.m6AIYBx5025646@b.mail.sonic.net>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<487652D1.1030206@shub-internet.org>
	<200807101834.m6AIYBx5025646@b.mail.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <48765C35.5090708@shub-internet.org>

Cyndi Norwitz wrote:

> I thought Mark's suggestion of limiting direct adds to a small number per
> time unit, or my ISP's suggestion of being able to give particular lists or
> listowners the ability to do direct adds (overruled by his superviser it
> seems), to be quite reasonable.

Agreed.

Of course, now it's up to Mark to actually implement the feature.  ;-)

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From gilmore.126 at osu.edu  Thu Jul 10 21:05:09 2008
From: gilmore.126 at osu.edu (Melinda Gilmore)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:05:09 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stumped on a archive move
Message-ID: <009201c8e2bf$df5b4270$6af29280@ad.service.osu.edu>

Ok, I move an example list and the archive called zos to a new mailman
server.   When I copy the archive over zos.mbox and then try to run the
bin/arch,   I am getting an error of:

Cannot open mbox file archives/private/zos.mbox/zos.mbox: [Errno 2] No such
file or directory: 'archives/private/zos.mbox/zos.mbox'

I am confused on trying to fix this.   It is adding another zos.mbox at the
end.  If I try to go to the administrative pages and click on list archives,
it goes to a website of http://listservername instead of the
https://listservernamethat it should go to.  

I missed something here.  Any help would be appreciated.

Melinda Gilmore
Systems Engineer
The Ohio State University
Enterprise Messaging/OIT
614-292-4953


From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Thu Jul 10 21:05:34 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:05:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass   Subscription
In-Reply-To: <48765BBE.1050201@shub-internet.org>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<7ff145960807091954t7ce890bejbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com>
	<200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic.net>
	<20080710182911.BEDF35F5ED@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
	<48765BBE.1050201@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <20080710190613.4DE11121D0B@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>

Right, Brad. 

Did you note that on our subscribe page, the default radio box is "subscribe" and not "invite?"

I do not know if that is a site admin setting, but it seems to me it should be the opposite.

Brad Knowles wrote at 11:58 AM 7/10/2008:
 
>Michael Welch wrote:
>
>>That said, my own need calls for the ability to do just that.
>
>And I've used it myself on numerous occasions.  This is why I haven't made too much noise about stripping this function, or even turning it off by default.  I trust myself to use it, and I'm willing to trust most of my users on certain systems, but I don't trust anyone else.
>
>Since I want to keep the feature for myself, I can't argue too loudly to remove it for everyone else.

Right.  

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Thu Jul 10 21:20:04 2008
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:20:04 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass  Subscription
In-Reply-To: <200807101834.m6AIYBx5025646@b.mail.sonic.net>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<487652D1.1030206@shub-internet.org>
	<200807101834.m6AIYBx5025646@b.mail.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <200807101914.m6AJE6sx025773@newbox.eroded.org>

Cyndi Norwitz wrote:

>I really really hate having my ability to effectively run lists (or
>websites or chats) curtailed because of the huge numbers of greedy jerks
>out there.  I realize it can't be ignored but I am hoping there could be
>some middle ground.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

I think it really comes down to choices, which break down about like this:

If you were running your own server and installed your own copy of 
mailman, you would be able to run it any way you wish. But then you 
have to maintain it.

Or you could find another service provider that allows it, but they 
may have other issues for you to deal with (like being blacklisted).

Or you can just live with the restrictions your ISP has imposed on 
their shared hosting system.





Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From lstone19 at stonejongleux.com  Thu Jul 10 21:12:54 2008
From: lstone19 at stonejongleux.com (Larry Stone)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:12:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass  Subscription
In-Reply-To: <48765BBE.1050201@shub-internet.org>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<7ff145960807091954t7ce890bejbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com>
	<200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic.net>
	<20080710182911.BEDF35F5ED@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
	<48765BBE.1050201@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.58.0807101401220.76202@albion.stonejongleux.com>

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008, Brad Knowles wrote:

> Michael Welch wrote:
>
> > That said, my own need calls for the ability to do just that.
>
> And I've used it myself on numerous occasions.  This is why I haven't made
> too much noise about stripping this function, or even turning it off by
> default.  I trust myself to use it, and I'm willing to trust most of my
> users on certain systems, but I don't trust anyone else.
>
> Since I want to keep the feature for myself, I can't argue too loudly to
> remove it for everyone else.

Brad, I'm glad you added that. But it raises an interesting topic of
discussion which is why is e-mail held to a different standard than
other means of communication.

I know I've mentioned this before but as a side job, I assign soccer
referees to soccer games. I need to periodically make announcements to
them about upcoming games, etc. These officials are independent
contractors - they are not employees. I use Mailman to handle mailings
because I can e-mail to them 1) with it addressed to them personally
(using Full Personaliztion) and 2) without revealing the addresses of
other referees, all without having to BCC: them.

Now have any of them given permission to be added to a mailing list? Nope,
not one of them. Actually, most people don't even know it goes through a
mailing list processor. But they have voluntarily provided their e-mail
addresses to me when requesting games. When someone applies for games, I
use mass subscribe to add them.  I think it's reasonable to conclude that
by applying, they have an expectation that I'll use the address they've
provided to send them e-mail related to the games they've requested. Just
as I'll use the phone numbers they've provided to call them and the snail
mail address potentially to send them snail mail. Nobody asks for
confirmed opt-in for snail mail mailings or phone calls. So why is e-mail
held to a different standard?

Note that this is my own server on its own address so I have no worries
about customers abusing it. But note also that the way I use Mailman for
these lists to my referees is very much outside the traditional mailing
list model. And by the way, I also do run a few "traditional" lists and
they are very much confirmed opt-in.

-- Larry Stone
   lstone19 at stonejongleux.com

From terri at zone12.com  Thu Jul 10 21:29:39 2008
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:29:39 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stumped on a archive move
In-Reply-To: <009201c8e2bf$df5b4270$6af29280@ad.service.osu.edu>
References: <009201c8e2bf$df5b4270$6af29280@ad.service.osu.edu>
Message-ID: <B24641B3-5DA5-4D7E-8D57-38F0289D40FF@zone12.com>

On 10-Jul-08, at 3:05 PM, Melinda Gilmore wrote:

> Ok, I move an example list and the archive called zos to a new mailman
> server.   When I copy the archive over zos.mbox and then try to run  
> the
> bin/arch,   I am getting an error of:
>
> Cannot open mbox file archives/private/zos.mbox/zos.mbox: [Errno 2]  
> No such
> file or directory: 'archives/private/zos.mbox/zos.mbox'
>
> I am confused on trying to fix this.   It is adding another  
> zos.mbox at the
> end.
>

It's not adding an extra one.  There really should be a directory  
called zos.mbox containing only a single file, also named zos.mbox.   
I know, it seems silly, but that's the way it is, so if you change  
your files to match that structure it should work just fine!  (Well,  
assuming you have the permissions correct and so on...)

  Terri


From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Jul 10 22:18:49 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:18:49 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stumped on a archive move
In-Reply-To: <009201c8e2bf$df5b4270$6af29280@ad.service.osu.edu>
References: <009201c8e2bf$df5b4270$6af29280@ad.service.osu.edu>
Message-ID: <48766EA9.1000407@shub-internet.org>

Melinda Gilmore wrote:

> Ok, I move an example list and the archive called zos to a new mailman
> server.   When I copy the archive over zos.mbox and then try to run the
> bin/arch,   I am getting an error of:
> 
> Cannot open mbox file archives/private/zos.mbox/zos.mbox: [Errno 2] No such
> file or directory: 'archives/private/zos.mbox/zos.mbox'
> 
> I am confused on trying to fix this.   It is adding another zos.mbox at the
> end.

That's correct.  The actual mbox-format "raw" archive is stored with the 
filename of "list.mbox", but then this mbox is stored in a directory by the 
same name.

Believe me, it can be very confusing.

>       If I try to go to the administrative pages and click on list archives,
> it goes to a website of http://listservername instead of the
> https://listservernamethat it should go to.

That sounds like a list configuration issue that needs to be resolved with 
fix_list, and should be discussed in the FAQ.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Thu Jul 10 22:30:37 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:30:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass  Subscription
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.58.0807101401220.76202@albion.stonejongleux.com>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>	<7ff145960807091954t7ce890bejbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com>	<200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic.net>	<20080710182911.BEDF35F5ED@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>	<48765BBE.1050201@shub-internet.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.58.0807101401220.76202@albion.stonejongleux.com>
Message-ID: <4876716D.7010800@shub-internet.org>

Larry Stone wrote:

> Brad, I'm glad you added that. But it raises an interesting topic of
> discussion which is why is e-mail held to a different standard than
> other means of communication.

This is a lot like another case where there is only harm perceived when 
someone claims that they've been harmed, such as sexual harassment at work.

There are one category of things that pretty much everyone can agree to as 
being wrong, and another category of things about which there may be quite a 
bit of disagreement.

At the end of the day, it's not really sexual harassment until the person on 
the receiving end says it is.


Spam is much the same.  So, until someone complains, you're fine.  But even 
if you've operated the most scrupulous system that you can possibly do, as 
soon as you get that complaint then you've got a problem.

In the anti-spam community, over time we have developed some standards by 
which we say that everyone should operate, and if you can "prove" that you 
do that, then pretty much by definition you are not a spammer.

There are plenty of others who are not spammers but who do not operate by 
these rules, and until such time as there is a complaint against them, 
they're probably okay.  But then there are also a lot of shady characters 
who intentionally shave close to that line, and what should we do about them?


It's the combination of that massive amount of grey area, and potential for 
abuse throughout the grey area, that causes the problems.

In order to try to avoid any appearance of impropriety, we set much higher 
standards so as to try to completely avoid even getting close to the grey area.

At least, that's my personal view.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From vancleef at lostwells.net  Thu Jul 10 22:42:39 2008
From: vancleef at lostwells.net (Hank van Cleef)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:42:39 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <487652D1.1030206@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <200807102042.m6AKgd48015176@julie.lostwells.net>

The esteemed Brad Knowles has said:
> 
> Personally, I would be happy to see the "mass subscribe" feature go away 
> completely from the web interface of Mailman, or at least disabled by 
> default.  But then I've been fighting spam since the time I was the Sr. 
> Internet Mail Administrator at AOL in '95, and this is a subject that I feel 
> very strongly about.
> 
I am going to go on record as very strongly OPPOSED to removal of the
"mass subscribe" feature.  We used it as the only method a new user
can subscribe to the list.  

Our method for new subscribers is to direct them to a web page with a
form they fill out.  On completion, that form is mailed by a cgi
script to the moderators.  After moderator review, we manually add
those we approve to Mailman through the "mass subscribe" interface.

The two mail subscription ports (-join, -subscribe) are disabled.  
Some time ago I did a check to see how much spam and how many bogus
attempts to subscribe those ports got.  Answer: plenty, and it was
quite clear that there were several attempts to evade our checks by
listers we had removed for list violations.  

I don't know what you did at AOL, but I'm here to tell you that AOL in
general was one big headache right from the get-go, and the source of
many disguised attempts to thwart our subscription policies.  We're
down to two AOL subscribers who are very well known to the moderators.

Hank

From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Thu Jul 10 23:32:21 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:32:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderation in mass subscribes,
	and moderator member list view
Message-ID: <20080710213228.749C6181096@friskymail-a3.g.dreamhost.com>

Hi friends. A couple of questions.

I do not have shell access, only access through the admin page automatically set up by my host.

On one of my lists, I want to put some folks, but not others, on moderation as I invite them. Is there some coding I can add to the end of their entry in the mass subscribe box or something I am missing?

Also, I was surprised to see that my moderator does not have access to changing the moderation status of list members. And I do not find an opportunity to give them that access. Am I missing something?

No doubt there will be more questions, I hope I do not wear on your patience.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org


From honneus at cisco.com  Thu Jul 10 23:36:59 2008
From: honneus at cisco.com (Bill Honneus (honneus))
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:36:59 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Export list of subscribers?
Message-ID: <72090C0C43FAAE4EA600F612226977D8BE6D38@xmb-rtp-213.amer.cisco.com>

Hi,
 
Is there a way to export the current list of subscribers of a mailing
list to a text file, either through the web administrator interface or
through a command line option?
 
Much appreciated!
 
Thanks,
 
Bill

From hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu  Thu Jul 10 23:31:24 2008
From: hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu (hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:31:24 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <200807102042.m6AKgd48015176@julie.lostwells.net>
References: <200807102042.m6AKgd48015176@julie.lostwells.net>
Message-ID: <78CE1A2E12C49D4F54BDE3D9@OHIO-87C67B454B.cns.ohiou.edu>

--On Thursday, July 10, 2008 2:42 PM -0600 Hank van Cleef 
<vancleef at lostwells.net> wrote:

> The two mail subscription ports (-join, -subscribe) are disabled.

How can the Mass Subscriptions options for all new lists be changed to only 
Invite? I'd like to eliminate the Subscribe option. I looked in the 
Defaults.py file but did not find this.

Don Hone
<http://edirectory.ohio.edu/?$search?uid=hone>
Ohio University

From z.szalbot at lcwords.com  Thu Jul 10 23:42:30 2008
From: z.szalbot at lcwords.com (Zbigniew Szalbot)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:42:30 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Export list of subscribers?
In-Reply-To: <72090C0C43FAAE4EA600F612226977D8BE6D38@xmb-rtp-213.amer.cisco.com>
References: <72090C0C43FAAE4EA600F612226977D8BE6D38@xmb-rtp-213.amer.cisco.com>
Message-ID: <48768246.5080500@lcwords.com>

Hi there,

Bill Honneus (honneus):
> Hi,
>  
> Is there a way to export the current list of subscribers of a mailing
> list to a text file, either through the web administrator interface or
> through a command line option?
Command line will work best.
Take a look at bin/list_members

HTH
-- 
Zbigniew Szalbot
www.LCWords.com

From brad at shub-internet.org  Fri Jul 11 00:54:50 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:54:50 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <200807102042.m6AKgd48015176@julie.lostwells.net>
References: <200807102042.m6AKgd48015176@julie.lostwells.net>
Message-ID: <4876933A.4090205@shub-internet.org>

Hank van Cleef wrote:

> I am going to go on record as very strongly OPPOSED to removal of the
> "mass subscribe" feature.  We used it as the only method a new user
> can subscribe to the list.  

I know there are people who use it responsibly, which is why I don't 
advocate too strongly for its removal.  But that doesn't mean that it 
doesn't get abused, or that we shouldn't do things to try to curb that abuse.

> I don't know what you did at AOL, but I'm here to tell you that AOL in
> general was one big headache right from the get-go, and the source of
> many disguised attempts to thwart our subscription policies.  We're
> down to two AOL subscribers who are very well known to the moderators.

I mostly managed the Internet e-mail gateway system at AOL, but as an 
old-hand Unix user myself (going back to 1984), I actively tried to get 
everyone I knew to stop using the AOL client.  It tries to make things too 
easy for the newbie to do, and in the meanwhile it makes things harder for 
the more computer-savvy user.

Most importantly, because they make it trivially easy to hit the "report as 
spam" button and they don't spank the crap out of their users who abuse this 
feature, they really make it much more difficult for the rest of us.

Read all of the items in the FAQ that mention AOL.  Every single one of them 
is negative with respect to AOL, and I wrote or edited them all.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Fri Jul 11 00:58:36 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:58:36 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderation in mass subscribes,
 and moderator member list view
In-Reply-To: <20080710213228.749C6181096@friskymail-a3.g.dreamhost.com>
References: <20080710213228.749C6181096@friskymail-a3.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <4876941C.1070502@shub-internet.org>

Michael Welch wrote:

> On one of my lists, I want to put some folks, but not others, on
> moderation as I invite them. Is there some coding I can add to the end of
> their entry in the mass subscribe box or something I am missing?

There is no feature for this kind of thing in Mailman.  You can subscribe 
them and then go in and manually set their moderation bit, or you can set 
the default to be moderated then add them, then reset the default, but you 
can't do it all as one operation.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From cyndi at tikvah.com  Fri Jul 11 01:06:41 2008
From: cyndi at tikvah.com (Cyndi Norwitz)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 16:06:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.58.0807101401220.76202@albion.stonejongleux.com>
	(message from Larry Stone on Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:12:54 -0500 (CDT))
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<7ff145960807091954t7ce890bejbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com>
	<200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic.net>
	<20080710182911.BEDF35F5ED@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
	<48765BBE.1050201@shub-internet.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.58.0807101401220.76202@albion.stonejongleux.com>
Message-ID: <200807102306.m6AN6fm1030861@a.mail.sonic.net>

   Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:12:54 -0500 (CDT)
   From: Larry Stone <lstone19 at stonejongleux.com>

   When someone applies for games, I use mass subscribe to add them.  I
   think it's reasonable to conclude that by applying, they have an
   expectation that I'll use the address they've provided to send them
   e-mail related to the games they've requested. Just as I'll use the
   phone numbers they've provided to call them and the snail mail address
   potentially to send them snail mail. 

I agree.

   Nobody asks for confirmed opt-in for snail mail mailings or phone
   calls. So why is e-mail held to a different standard?

I think the question is, why is email held to a LOWER standard?  

For years and years (and still), if a telemarketer called you, you could
say "please remove me from your list" and they had to comply.  Of course
some were better about it than others, but generally it worked.  And the
law was on your side.  Now there is a do-not-call list and nearly everyone
complies with it.  I've had just a handful of unwanted sales calls since it
began a couple years ago (not counting the 3-4 a month I get for my
business, which uses my home #).

It's a bit more work to get rid of junk mail but, again, the law says you
have to be removed from their list if you ask.  And there are some places
to sign up to opt out of receiving mass mailings.

Even faxes are regulated.  It's illegal to send unwanted commercialfaxes.

There are two differences with email: 1) there are only spotty and poorly
enforced laws against junk email (in part because a lot of it is
international and/or hidden) and 2) sending snail mail, faxes, or phoning
all cost money--sending emails costs little to nothing, so there are
exponentially more of them.

I do the same thing as you do in the sense of being in charge of putting
people I know personally or am local to on small lists.  Unfortunately, the
vast majority of unsolicited email is not small or local or personal.


   Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:20:04 -0700
   From: Dragon <dragon at crimson-dragon.com>

   Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
   >I really really hate having my ability to effectively run lists (or
   >websites or chats) curtailed because of the huge numbers of greedy jerks
   >out there.  I realize it can't be ignored but I am hoping there could be
   >some middle ground.

   I think it really comes down to choices, which break down about like this:

   If you were running your own server and installed your own copy of 
   mailman, you would be able to run it any way you wish. But then you 
   have to maintain it.

   Or you could find another service provider that allows it, but they 
   may have other issues for you to deal with (like being blacklisted).

   Or you can just live with the restrictions your ISP has imposed on 
   their shared hosting system.

I choose option #4: live with it while at the same time I see if newer
versions can have some reasonable options and try to get my ISP to
implement them.

I do love my ISP and the cost is super reasonable: $10 or $20/month
(depending on the plan) for email, domain name service, usenet, tons of
storage, the ability to run various things on my shell/unix account, many
email boxes and POP service, databases, Wordpress blogs, and as many
Mailman mailing lists as I want to set up.  This is just a quibble :)

Cyndi


From d.drury at gmail.com  Fri Jul 11 01:37:08 2008
From: d.drury at gmail.com (Duncan Drury)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 00:37:08 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yum install of mailman on CentOS 5
Message-ID: <4156a9150807101637h190b70bg9b38086b4b1de053@mail.gmail.com>

I am trying to get mailman working via a yum install on CentOS 5, which is
based on a RedHat rpm of mailman 2.1.9.

I am unable to get the mailman cgi-bin scripts to run via Apache.  Rather
than running the scripts, Apache will send the listinfo file to my browser.
I am able to get scripts in other ScriptAlias directories to run, so as far
as I can tell my basic setup of Apache is ok.

The yum install creates the following apache directives:

#
#  httpd configuration settings for use with mailman.
#

ScriptAlias /mailman/ /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/
<Directory /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/>
    AllowOverride None
    Options ExecCGI
    Order allow,deny
    Allow from all
</Directory>


Alias /pipermail/ /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/
<Directory /var/lib/mailman/archives/public>
    Options Indexes MultiViews FollowSymLinks
    AllowOverride None
    Order allow,deny
    Allow from all
</Directory>

# Uncomment the following line, replacing www.example.com with your server's
# name, to redirect queries to /mailman to the listinfo page (recommended).

RedirectMatch ^/mailman[/]*$ http://www.example.com/mailman/listinfo

Permissions in my /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin are as follows:

# ls -la
total 104
drwxrwsr-x  2 root mailman 4096 Jul 11 00:18 .
drwxrwsr-x 13 root mailman 4096 Jul 10 23:38 ..
-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6844 May 24 21:44 admin
-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6852 May 24 21:44 admindb
-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6852 May 24 21:44 confirm
-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6852 May 24 21:44 create
-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6856 May 24 21:44 edithtml
-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6856 May 24 21:44 listinfo
-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6852 May 24 21:44 options
-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6852 May 24 21:44 private
-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6852 May 24 21:44 rmlist
-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6852 May 24 21:44 roster
-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6856 May 24 21:44 subscribe

I'm able to run these scripts from shell (although they don't like being run
as any user other than apache and stop).

Has anyone come across this problem before, and/or any ideas on how to fix
it?

Thanks very much,

Duncan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 11 02:50:23 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:50:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yum install of mailman on CentOS 5
In-Reply-To: <4156a9150807101637h190b70bg9b38086b4b1de053@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008071017502305636183ac8a@msapiro>

Duncan Drury wrote:

>I am trying to get mailman working via a yum install on CentOS 5, which is
>based on a RedHat rpm of mailman 2.1.9.
>
>I am unable to get the mailman cgi-bin scripts to run via Apache.  Rather
>than running the scripts, Apache will send the listinfo file to my browser.


What listinfo file? The binary wrapper?


>I am able to get scripts in other ScriptAlias directories to run, so as far
>as I can tell my basic setup of Apache is ok.


If Apache is actually delivering the /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin wrapper
files instead of executing them, there is something wrong with the
apache config.

What do apache's access_log and error_log say for the access?


>The yum install creates the following apache directives:
>
>#
>#  httpd configuration settings for use with mailman.
>#
>
>ScriptAlias /mailman/ /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/
><Directory /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/>
>    AllowOverride None
>    Options ExecCGI
>    Order allow,deny
>    Allow from all
></Directory>
>
>
>Alias /pipermail/ /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/
><Directory /var/lib/mailman/archives/public>
>    Options Indexes MultiViews FollowSymLinks
>    AllowOverride None
>    Order allow,deny
>    Allow from all
></Directory>
>
># Uncomment the following line, replacing www.example.com with your server's
># name, to redirect queries to /mailman to the listinfo page (recommended).
>
>RedirectMatch ^/mailman[/]*$ http://www.example.com/mailman/listinfo


and presumably puts them in /etc/httpd/conf.d/mailman.conf. Is there
anything in /etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf that might contradict the
ScriptAlias?


>Permissions in my /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin are as follows:
>
># ls -la
>total 104
>drwxrwsr-x  2 root mailman 4096 Jul 11 00:18 .
>drwxrwsr-x 13 root mailman 4096 Jul 10 23:38 ..
>-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6844 May 24 21:44 admin
>-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6852 May 24 21:44 admindb
>-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6852 May 24 21:44 confirm
>-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6852 May 24 21:44 create
>-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6856 May 24 21:44 edithtml
>-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6856 May 24 21:44 listinfo
>-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6852 May 24 21:44 options
>-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6852 May 24 21:44 private
>-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6852 May 24 21:44 rmlist
>-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6852 May 24 21:44 roster
>-rwxr-sr-x  1 root mailman 6856 May 24 21:44 subscribe


Permissions are as they should be.


>I'm able to run these scripts from shell (although they don't like being run
>as any user other than apache and stop).


That's as it should be, so they work.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From maickel.pandie at gmail.com  Fri Jul 11 03:11:18 2008
From: maickel.pandie at gmail.com (Maickel Pandie)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 08:11:18 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hard drive is full
In-Reply-To: <487654ED.2070003@shub-internet.org>
References: <6a215fbe0807100131q4f3d1e43s2c0448253aa03a72@mail.gmail.com>
	<487654ED.2070003@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <6a215fbe0807101811s6e0a6f98r9b76aee6bfa01642@mail.gmail.com>

can I just use cleanarch from /var/lib/mailman/bin/cleanarch to delete all
archive?

2008/7/11 Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>:

> Maickel Pandie wrote:
>
>                        First time this server work, it only consume 6 GB.
>> Now my 40 GB hard drive is full.
>>
>
> For a server, especially a mailing list server, 40GB is ... very small.
> Most servers I know of would probably have hundreds of GB available for the
> OS, the archives, etc....
>
>  Is it right that Mailman save all email or attachment file in server
>> machine?
>>
>
> Yup.  It's called an archive.
>
>           if it's right what can I do to clear all email or attachment file
>> in server machine?
>>
>
> You could blow away the entire archive, but then you wouldn't have an
> archive of the traffic on the mailing list.
>
> Not really sure we can provide much help here.
>
> --
> Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
> LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 11 03:18:06 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:18:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hard drive is full
In-Reply-To: <6a215fbe0807100131q4f3d1e43s2c0448253aa03a72@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008071018180600014ea22087@msapiro>

Maickel Pandie wrote:

>Hi...
>
>It's been 3 weeks since I launched my mailing list server using Mailman +
>Postfix, 2 days ago my server stoped sending mail, when I search the problem
>from log it telling me that the problem is disk drive is full. When I
>restart my server I can't login into server because there are no free space
>anymore in disk drive. First time this server work, it only consume 6 GB.
>Now my 40 GB hard drive is full.
>
>Is it right that Mailman save all email or attachment file in server
>machine? if it's right what can I do to clear all email or attachment file
>in server machine?


Yes, Mailman archives list posts, but the list owner can turn off
archiving for a list, and the site admin can disable archiving
completely by setting

ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX = -1

in mm_cfg.py (see Defaults.py for a description of all the possible
settings).

However, if Mailman's archives are the culprit, you are accumulating
over 10 GB of archive data per week. Granted, Mailman isn't too
efficient at minimizing archive space usage, but even given that there
might by three copies of an attachment in the archives, one scrubbed
from the archive, one scrubbed from the digest and one in the
listname.mbox file, 10 GB is over 1000 posts per week of over 2MB each
in size. My mind boggles.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 11 03:21:00 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:21:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hard drive is full
In-Reply-To: <6a215fbe0807101811s6e0a6f98r9b76aee6bfa01642@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC187020080710182100050105ad3f35@msapiro>

Maickel Pandie wrote:

>can I just use cleanarch from /var/lib/mailman/bin/cleanarch to delete all
>archive?


No. That's not what cleanarch does.

To remove a list's archives, you do

rm -r path/to/archives/private/listname*

where listname is the name of the list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 11 05:08:53 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:08:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <78CE1A2E12C49D4F54BDE3D9@OHIO-87C67B454B.cns.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <PC18702008071020085301102ace9423@msapiro>

hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu wrote:
>
>How can the Mass Subscriptions options for all new lists be changed to only 
>Invite? I'd like to eliminate the Subscribe option. I looked in the 
>Defaults.py file but did not find this.


There are no settings for it nor for defaulting subscribe/invite to
invite (although as a result of this thread, there may be in Mailman
2.2). Here's a patch I use to default to "invite". Eliminating
subscribe as an option is a bit more involved and I don't have a patch
for it offhand, but one way to do it would be to change
'subscribe_or_invite' from a radio button selection to a hidden field
with a fixed value of 1.


--- mailman-2.1.10b1/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py       2007-12-04
12:03:50.000000000 -0
800
+++ /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py     2007-12-14
22:42:29.000000000 -0
800
@@ -1137,7 +1137,7 @@
         Label(_('Subscribe these users now or invite them?')),
         RadioButtonArray('subscribe_or_invite',
                          (_('Subscribe'), _('Invite')),
-                         0, values=(0, 1))
+                         1, values=(0, 1))
         ])
     table.AddCellInfo(table.GetCurrentRowIndex(), 0, bgcolor=GREY)
     table.AddCellInfo(table.GetCurrentRowIndex(), 1, bgcolor=GREY)


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From billc_lists at greenbuilder.com  Fri Jul 11 05:35:48 2008
From: billc_lists at greenbuilder.com (Bill Christensen)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:35:48 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hard drive is full
In-Reply-To: <487644B9.2060704@libertytrek.org>
References: <6a215fbe0807100131q4f3d1e43s2c0448253aa03a72@mail.gmail.com>
	<487644B9.2060704@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <a0623094cc49c809878f5@[192.168.33.3]>

At 1:19 PM -0400 7/10/08, Simon wrote:
>
>This doesn't help you much now, but this is why it is a good idea to 
>keep anything that stores data (mail, temp directories, etc) on a 
>separate partition from your / directory.
>

On that note... is there anything to look out for with moving the 
archives elsewhere?  Can they just be moved and a symlink put in 
their place?  Or is it best to define the path in a config file (and 
if so, which one)?

Thanks


-- 
Bill Christensen
<http://greenbuilder.com/contact/>

Green Building Professionals Directory: <http://directory.greenbuilder.com>
Sustainable Building Calendar: <http://www.greenbuilder.com/calendar/>
Green Real Estate: <http://www.greenbuilder.com/realestate/>
Straw Bale Registry: <http://sbregistry.greenbuilder.com/>
Books/videos/software: <http://bookstore.greenbuilder.com/>

From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Jul 11 08:48:25 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:48:25 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <200807102306.m6AN6fm1030861@a.mail.sonic.net>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<7ff145960807091954t7ce890bejbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com>
	<200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic.net>
	<20080710182911.BEDF35F5ED@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
	<48765BBE.1050201@shub-internet.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.58.0807101401220.76202@albion.stonejongleux.com>
	<200807102306.m6AN6fm1030861@a.mail.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <87r6a0ncg6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Cyndi Norwitz writes:

 > There are two differences with email: 1) there are only spotty and poorly
 > enforced laws against junk email (in part because a lot of it is
 > international and/or hidden) and 2) sending snail mail, faxes, or phoning
 > all cost money--sending emails costs little to nothing, so there are
 > exponentially more of them.

No, there's another difference.  (3) E-mail can be sent with almost no
chance of identifying the sender.  This means that the vendor can
claim they're being set up at the same time they're spamming.

About the only to handle this would be for police to conduct sting
operations and make it risky to hire professional spammers running
botnets.  Hopefully this might also lead down the food chain to the
botnets themselves.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Jul 11 09:09:38 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:09:38 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass  Subscription
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.58.0807101401220.76202@albion.stonejongleux.com>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<7ff145960807091954t7ce890bejbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com>
	<200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic.net>
	<20080710182911.BEDF35F5ED@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
	<48765BBE.1050201@shub-internet.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.58.0807101401220.76202@albion.stonejongleux.com>
Message-ID: <87prpknbgt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Larry Stone writes:

 > Brad, I'm glad you added that. But it raises an interesting topic of
 > discussion which is why is e-mail held to a different standard than
 > other means of communication.

Because it's different.  First, the costs are several orders of
magnitude cheaper.  Second, identifying the agent who caused an email
to be sent (who doesn't want to be identified) is orders of magnitude
harder, let alone forcing them to appear in court.

 > Now have any of them given permission to be added to a mailing
 > list?

The software you use is irrelevant.  Did they give you permission to
send them email?  As you explain it, implicitly, they did.  Between
you and them, legally and ethically, cased closed.

The problem is that email operates at internet speed, for good and for
bad.  ISPs can have their whole IP block blacklisted within seconds
after a mailing goes out.  They don't have time for drawn out due
process; if they receive a complaint, they need to make a decision
quickly.

 > Nobody asks for confirmed opt-in for snail mail mailings or phone
 > calls. So why is e-mail held to a different standard?

Practically speaking, because it's not possible to for random
individuals to stop snail mail or phone calls simply by setting up a
special-purpose nameserver (or a filter in the MTA of a mega-ISP).  To
stop snail mail or phone calls, a third party needs to go through the
courts.  Furthermore, even if I get banned from sending mass mail
through the USPS, the rest of my zip code is unaffected.  That's not
necessarily true if you get your ISP's whole IP block listed on one of
the black holes.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Jul 11 09:54:06 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:54:06 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass  Subscription
In-Reply-To: <20080710182911.BEDF35F5ED@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<7ff145960807091954t7ce890bejbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com>
	<200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic.net>
	<20080710182911.BEDF35F5ED@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <87od54n9ep.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Michael Welch writes:

 > I think that bulk adding is a dangerous thing to allow, from the
 > host's viewpoint at a minimum. Who's to say what unscrupulous
 > a-holes are ready to take advantage of that ability.

Very dumb ones.  I really don't see a major social problem here; as a
host, make your users pay a couple months in advance and throttle them
to X total recipients/day by default.  The small-time spams possible
under those conditions are not effective.  Really dumb people will
rediscover the extremely low cost of email every few weeks, get
terminated with extreme prejudice from their ISPs, featured in the
local newspaper in one of those "there but for the grace of God go I"
articles with their names changed, become the laughingstock of the
neighborhood and have their kid nicknamed "Son of Spam".  Net social
cost will be tolerable (just like drinking, smoking, watching iCarly,
running negative ads in your campaign for President, and all the other
familiar American vices).

What the really unscrupulous a-holes are doing is making bots out of
the host's customers.

IMO, the real problem is the professional spammers with their botnets
and their look-the-other-way IP-block-poisoning pet ISPs.  There is no
way that more than 1% of the spam I get comes from Mom & Pop shops
using the mass subscribe feature of Mailman.

However, that real problem is a *big* problem, enough so that an awful
lot of people have a "zero tolerance" attitude toward spam.  That
means that they dog-pile on the easy targets: the dimwits who try to
spam using an ISP-provided cPanel Mailman, and so on.  Except that
they can't identify the dimwits, so they dog-pile on the ISPs hosting
the dimwits.  But the ISPs can't afford to have that happen too often,
so ... voila! draconian restrictions.

 > That also said, we still get occasional folks that say, "why
 > the tarnation did you add me to your mail list" even when they
 > specifically requested it--they forget what they requested, I
 > suppose. At least they respect us enough not to complain to our
 > host or spamcop.

Right.  This is part of what I meant above by "tolerable" social
costs.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Jul 11 10:15:37 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:15:37 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <4876933A.4090205@shub-internet.org>
References: <200807102042.m6AKgd48015176@julie.lostwells.net>
	<4876933A.4090205@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <87mykon8eu.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brad Knowles writes:

 > I know there are people who use it responsibly, which is why I
 > don't advocate too strongly for its removal.  But that doesn't mean
 > that it doesn't get abused, or that we shouldn't do things to try
 > to curb that abuse.

I have to disagree.  Anything that can be done with the Mailman "mass
subscribe" feature can be done just as effectively with a contact list
on Gmail, in theory.[1]  It's other aspects of Gmail policy that (so
far at least) make that a small enough problem that I've never
considered filtering on "^(From|Sender):.*@gmail\.com".

So I think that's the wrong way to phrase it.  We (the Mailman
community) can't do much to curb abuse without crippling useful
features of the software.  What we can do is to provide hosting
services with tools to implement their own policies.  What needs to be
done is to give site administrators ways to set policy.  *Maybe* the
defaults should be set up "safely", too, but that's not entirely clear
to me.


Footnotes: 
[1]  And in practice.  Last term I gave a makeup exam to a student who
fell prey to a hoax that classes were being cancelled in solidarity
with a planned strike by university service workers -- on the day of
my midterm.  The (confirmed by Google, apparently) source was a
throwaway Gmail address.  One thing I'll say for the spammer: the
English was excellent and a dead ringer for university bureaucratese.


From z.szalbot at lcwords.com  Fri Jul 11 10:18:18 2008
From: z.szalbot at lcwords.com (Zbigniew Szalbot)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:18:18 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <87mykon8eu.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <200807102042.m6AKgd48015176@julie.lostwells.net>	<4876933A.4090205@shub-internet.org>
	<87mykon8eu.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <4877174A.1030303@lcwords.com>

Hi all,

> I have to disagree.  Anything that can be done with the Mailman "mass
>  subscribe" feature can be done just as effectively with a contact
> list on Gmail, in theory.[1]  It's other aspects of Gmail policy that
> (so far at least) make that a small enough problem that I've never 
> considered filtering on "^(From|Sender):.*@gmail\.com".

Quite a long thread but important issues on their own. Let me just make
one point. I think that we're really talking about two contexts:

1/ Mailman as a discussion list - like the one we're having here. I 
don't imagine spammers would be setting up their lists as discussion 
list, would they? I don't actually imagine big time spammers using 
mailman. They're all about botnets.

2/ Mailman as a newsletter/announcement list.
I can't sponsor the developers (sad but true) but I'd love to see 
Mailman giving me an option to create either discussion or announcement 
list with pre-set features for each of them. One of these pre-sets could 
be in fact the presence or absence of mass-subscribe feature defined per 
list during list creation.

If I don't really know the people I am giving a list to administer, I 
would be tempted, especially with an announcement list, to turn off mass 
subscribe feature.

Mailman is getting better and better no doubt about it. However, if I 
understand the current trends, discussion lists are dropped in favour of 
online forums and newsletter/marketing tools are more and more sought 
after. This is a market to gain for Mailman but it currently lacks a few 
features to do that. Well, my post is slowly getting off topic so I will 
just wrap it up by thanking the developers for a very good software I am 
able to use!

Regards,

-- 
Zbigniew Szalbot
www.LCWords.com

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Fri Jul 11 12:47:57 2008
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Simon)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 06:47:57 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hard drive is full
In-Reply-To: <a0623094cc49c809878f5@[192.168.33.3]>
References: <6a215fbe0807100131q4f3d1e43s2c0448253aa03a72@mail.gmail.com>	<487644B9.2060704@libertytrek.org>
	<a0623094cc49c809878f5@[192.168.33.3]>
Message-ID: <48773A5D.30302@libertytrek.org>

On 7/10/2008, Bill Christensen (billc_lists at greenbuilder.com) wrote:
> On that note... is there anything to look out for with moving the
> archives elsewhere?  Can they just be moved and a symlink put in
> their place?  Or is it best to define the path in a config file (and
> if so, which one)?

Hmmm, dunno, never tried... I'll let someone who knows respond. Kinda 
curious myself now.

From barry at list.org  Fri Jul 11 14:20:44 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 08:20:44 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <4877174A.1030303@lcwords.com>
References: <200807102042.m6AKgd48015176@julie.lostwells.net>	<4876933A.4090205@shub-internet.org>
	<87mykon8eu.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4877174A.1030303@lcwords.com>
Message-ID: <AAF3097C-F642-400E-A14F-6AC068A8F7B7@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jul 11, 2008, at 4:18 AM, Zbigniew Szalbot wrote:

> 2/ Mailman as a newsletter/announcement list.
> I can't sponsor the developers (sad but true) but I'd love to see  
> Mailman giving me an option to create either discussion or  
> announcement list with pre-set features for each of them. One of  
> these pre-sets could be in fact the presence or absence of mass- 
> subscribe feature defined per list during list creation.

Mailman 3 already has a 'list style' infrastructure, so I agree that  
presets are an important feature.

- -Barry

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iEYEARECAAYFAkh3UB0ACgkQ2YZpQepbvXHo4QCeJWueMKJ7k9QR+Ip5+1K1fw4N
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From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 11 16:47:04 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:47:04 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange problem with one mailman list
In-Reply-To: <028801c8e2bc$03a679f0$0af36dd0$@com>
References: <028801c8e2bc$03a679f0$0af36dd0$@com>
Message-ID: <48777268.8030307@msapiro.net>

Brian Carpenter wrote:
> 
> We are having a problem with one list on this server. It seems whenever the
> list sends out a welcome message or an unsubscribe notification to a member,
> it is appending -owner to the e-mail address. It will be something like
> name-owner at domain.com when it should just be name at domain.com. This problem
> does not affect any other list on the server, just this one particular list.
> Also this issue only happens on subscribe/unsubscribe notifications. Posts
> sent to the list are sent out fine.


Check the "Umbrella list settings" on the list's General Options page 
(hint: set umbrella_list to No).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From japruim at raoset.com  Fri Jul 11 16:45:50 2008
From: japruim at raoset.com (Jason Pruim)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:45:50 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <200807102306.m6AN6fm1030861@a.mail.sonic.net>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<7ff145960807091954t7ce890bejbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com>
	<200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic.net>
	<20080710182911.BEDF35F5ED@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
	<48765BBE.1050201@shub-internet.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.58.0807101401220.76202@albion.stonejongleux.com>
	<200807102306.m6AN6fm1030861@a.mail.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <AA363697-D571-410F-90B1-C40333897808@raoset.com>


On Jul 10, 2008, at 7:06 PM, Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
>
>
>
> It's a bit more work to get rid of junk mail but, again, the law  
> says you
> have to be removed from their list if you ask.  And there are some  
> places
> to sign up to opt out of receiving mass mailings.

The problem with this, is the fact that you can purchase mailing lists  
that were assembled out of publicly available data, which then pulls  
you out of any of the individual companies do not mail lists...

I have worked with the USPS in the direct mail industry for the past  
13 years. Also, another issue is what is called a saturation mailing  
where you would hit every house on a given postal route. A good share  
of the time they do those types of mailings it just gets sent to  
"Postal Customer" or "Current Resident" no actual names included in  
saturation mailing lists...

So all of that to say that mass mailings are very hard to get out of  
because of the list providers that collect and sell your  
information... And since it's all public knowledge anyway, anyone who  
wanted to take the time could go through and get the same info on you :)

--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
11287 James St
Holland, MI 49424
www.raoset.com
japruim at raoset.com





From terri at zone12.com  Fri Jul 11 18:10:33 2008
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:10:33 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hard drive is full
In-Reply-To: <a0623094cc49c809878f5@[192.168.33.3]>
References: <6a215fbe0807100131q4f3d1e43s2c0448253aa03a72@mail.gmail.com>
	<487644B9.2060704@libertytrek.org>
	<a0623094cc49c809878f5@[192.168.33.3]>
Message-ID: <6A3F6F62-1903-4347-9B76-096D0AEE64BB@zone12.com>

On 10-Jul-08, at 11:35 PM, Bill Christensen wrote:
> At 1:19 PM -0400 7/10/08, Simon wrote:
>> This doesn't help you much now, but this is why it is a good idea  
>> to keep anything that stores data (mail, temp directories, etc) on  
>> a separate partition from your / directory.
> On that note... is there anything to look out for with moving the  
> archives elsewhere?  Can they just be moved and a symlink put in  
> their place?  Or is it best to define the path in a config file  
> (and if so, which one)?

They can just be moved and a symlink used, as long as your web server  
doesn't object.  I'm pretty sure I did this on one server that had  
some poorly chosen partition sizes and the list archive data wound up  
having to go on its own hard drive for a while.

Just watch that you shutdown mailman for a minute while you move  
files and set up the simlink so that it's not trying to write to  
space that gets pulled out from under it.

  Terri


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 11 18:35:50 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 09:35:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stumped on a archive move
In-Reply-To: <009201c8e2bf$df5b4270$6af29280@ad.service.osu.edu>
Message-ID: <PC18702008071109355009683dd42a7a@msapiro>

Melinda Gilmore wrote:

>If I try to go to the administrative pages and click on list archives,
>it goes to a website of http://listservername instead of the
>https://listservernamethat it should go to.  


If you move a list to a new server, you need to run fix_url on the
moved list to update the stored web_page_url and host_name attributes
of the list. It is the web_page_url attribute that contains the
scheme://host-name used in links. See <http://wiki.list.org/x/mIA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From gilmore.126 at osu.edu  Fri Jul 11 18:54:33 2008
From: gilmore.126 at osu.edu (Melinda Gilmore)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:54:33 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stumped on a archive move
In-Reply-To: <48766EA9.1000407@shub-internet.org>
References: <009201c8e2bf$df5b4270$6af29280@ad.service.osu.edu>
	<48766EA9.1000407@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <007801c8e376$cba0ac90$6af29280@ad.service.osu.edu>

Thank you all for the response.  I was able to fix this with your
suggestions.   I had run fix_url at one time, but had to run it again after
I tweeked some permissions.   

Thanks again 

-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Knowles [mailto:brad at shub-internet.org] 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 4:19 PM
To: Melinda Gilmore
Cc: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Stumped on a archive move

Melinda Gilmore wrote:

> Ok, I move an example list and the archive called zos to a new mailman
> server.   When I copy the archive over zos.mbox and then try to run the
> bin/arch,   I am getting an error of:
> 
> Cannot open mbox file archives/private/zos.mbox/zos.mbox: [Errno 2] No 
> such file or directory: 'archives/private/zos.mbox/zos.mbox'
> 
> I am confused on trying to fix this.   It is adding another zos.mbox at
the
> end.

That's correct.  The actual mbox-format "raw" archive is stored with the
filename of "list.mbox", but then this mbox is stored in a directory by the
same name.

Believe me, it can be very confusing.

>       If I try to go to the administrative pages and click on list 
> archives, it goes to a website of http://listservername instead of the 
> https://listservernamethat it should go to.

That sounds like a list configuration issue that needs to be resolved with
fix_list, and should be discussed in the FAQ.

--
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 11 18:58:28 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 09:58:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderation in mass subscribes,
	and moderator member list view
In-Reply-To: <20080710213228.749C6181096@friskymail-a3.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807110958280406c43f6c32@msapiro>

Michael Welch wrote:
>
>On one of my lists, I want to put some folks, but not others, on moderation as I invite them. Is there some coding I can add to the end of their entry in the mass subscribe box or something I am missing?


As Brad said, there is no 'one step' way to do this.


>Also, I was surprised to see that my moderator does not have access to changing the moderation status of list members. And I do not find an opportunity to give them that access. Am I missing something?


A person with the list moderator password only does not have access to
the admin Membership pages, but on the admindb page, when a post is
held because it is from a moderated member, there is a checkbox in the
entry for that post to "Clear this member's moderate flag".

So the moderator cannot set a member to moderated nor arbitrarily set a
member to unmoderated, but the moderator can set a member unmoderated
as part of accepting (or not) a moderated post from that member.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From rpyne at kinfolk.org  Sat Jul 12 05:49:56 2008
From: rpyne at kinfolk.org (rpyne at kinfolk.org)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:49:56 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] domain update
Message-ID: <4877D584.10871.17F4956@rpyne.kinfolk.org>

I am almost sure that I have seen this before, but I couldn't find 
the answer.

I have a list that has a large number of members whose email domain 
has changes en mass. In particular, I need to change all of the 
subscribers @mmode.com to @txt.att.net. Is there a simple way to do 
this or am I going to have to delete and re-subscribe every one of 
them?

Thanks.

--Richard


From brad at shub-internet.org  Sat Jul 12 06:03:44 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 23:03:44 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] domain update
In-Reply-To: <4877D584.10871.17F4956@rpyne.kinfolk.org>
References: <4877D584.10871.17F4956@rpyne.kinfolk.org>
Message-ID: <p06240801c49ddd38a3fe@[192.168.1.102]>

On 7/11/08, rpyne at kinfolk.org wrote:

>  I have a list that has a large number of members whose email domain
>  has changes en mass. In particular, I need to change all of the
>  subscribers @mmode.com to @txt.att.net. Is there a simple way to do
>  this or am I going to have to delete and re-subscribe every one of
>  them?

You should be able to relatively easily fix these using a "with_list" 
python script, or by dumping the entire list of subscribers to a 
file, then editing the file, then re-importing the list of 
subscribers.

But both of these methods require privileged command-line access to 
the server in order to do them.  If you have that kind of access, I'd 
suggest searching the FAQ and the archives for pointers on the 
specifics.


Otherwise, you may be able to script this through the web interface, 
but I suspect that's going to be rather more painful.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From linuxswan at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 12 13:00:00 2008
From: linuxswan at yahoo.com (jithender reddy)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 04:00:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Security & privacy needed examples are
	given below
Message-ID: <378085.69413.qm@web55815.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Hello Mailman community 

We are using the Mailman in our office, for our internal purpose only. Which is meant for privacy to the office also.

where
as one day i find that same as ours i.e mailman archieve it is showing
entire mails to the outside people. If they are downloading all the
archieves and seeing them will break our privacy this came to my
existance after 2 years of time. I dont know how may are doing this.
And we are very much afraid of this.

for example same iam showing the link here

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/

http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo

By
seeing the above link what i understood is All the groups and members
are known to others, then how i can achieve the privacy using this
mailman. This is usefull for open community by seeing the mails
interchanging the knowledge. For offices like us can we achieve the
privacy. Even the attachments in the mails are also visible to others
and sometimes the mails are consisting the Passwords also.

So if any one know the solution for this let me know so that we can get full benifit of this.

with regards
linuxswan




      

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jul 12 17:09:16 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:09:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] domain update
In-Reply-To: <p06240801c49ddd38a3fe@[192.168.1.102]>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807120809160250385633ca@msapiro>

Brad Knowles wrote:

>On 7/11/08, rpyne at kinfolk.org wrote:
>
>>  I have a list that has a large number of members whose email domain
>>  has changes en mass. In particular, I need to change all of the
>>  subscribers @mmode.com to @txt.att.net. Is there a simple way to do
>>  this or am I going to have to delete and re-subscribe every one of
>>  them?
>
>You should be able to relatively easily fix these using a "with_list" 
>python script, or by dumping the entire list of subscribers to a 
>file, then editing the file, then re-importing the list of 
>subscribers.

If you have command line access, use Mailman's bin/clone_member to
actually change the addresses as that preserves all other member
options and settings.

Run

bin/list_members listname | grep @mmode.com > file

to get a list of addresses to be changed. Edit file to make a list of
commands like

bin/clone_member -r user1 at mmode.com user1 at txt.att.net
bin/clone_member -r user2 at mmode.com user2 at txt.att.net
...

and run it as a shell script.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jul 12 17:32:46 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:32:46 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Security & privacy needed examples
	aregiven below
In-Reply-To: <378085.69413.qm@web55815.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008071208324606252ea3ce5f@msapiro>

jithender reddy wrote:
>
>where
>as one day i find that same as ours i.e mailman archieve it is showing
>entire mails to the outside people. If they are downloading all the
>archieves and seeing them will break our privacy this came to my
>existance after 2 years of time. I dont know how may are doing this.
>And we are very much afraid of this.
>
>for example same iam showing the link here
>
>http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/
>
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo
>


If you set archive_private to "private" on the lists "Archiving
Options" page in the admin web interface, the archive will only be
available to list members who log in with their list pasword. The
archive links will be of the form
<http://mail.python.org/mailman/private/mailman-developers/>, and the
'pipermail' links won't work.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jul 12 17:59:11 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:59:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yum install of mailman on CentOS 5
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008071017502305636183ac8a@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008071017502305636183ac8a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4878D4CF.5090804@msapiro.net>

Your original post contained the following, presumably contained in the 
mailman.conf installed by the rpm.

> # Uncomment the following line, replacing www.example.com with your server's
> # name, to redirect queries to /mailman to the listinfo page (recommended).
> 
> RedirectMatch ^/mailman[/]*$ http://www.example.com/mailman/listinfo
> 

and an off list reply to me contained

>>
>> What do apache's access_log and error_log say for the access?
>>
> 
> Nothing in error_log - access_log (at LogLevel debug) just shows:
> 
> ip - - [12/Jul/2008:14:26:24 +0100] "GET /mailman HTTP/1.1" 302 307 "-"
> "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.9) Gecko/2008052906
> Firefox/3.0"

which looks like the URL you're going to is http://.../mailman and 
getting redirected (302 status) as opposed to http://.../mailman/listinfo.

This, together with the fact that you say (in another off list message) 
that the problem only occurs with listinfo, seems to say that the 
problem is somehow related to the RedirectMatch. Presumably, it doesn't 
really say "www.example.com". What does it say? and what is the 
access_log entry immediately following the one above for the same IP?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From subscribed-lists at sterndata.com  Sat Jul 12 18:40:11 2008
From: subscribed-lists at sterndata.com (Steven Stern)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:40:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Security & privacy needed examples
 aregiven below
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008071208324606252ea3ce5f@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008071208324606252ea3ce5f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4878DE6B.7010603@sterndata.com>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> jithender reddy wrote:
>   
>> where
>> as one day i find that same as ours i.e mailman archieve it is showing
>> entire mails to the outside people. If they are downloading all the
>> archieves and seeing them will break our privacy this came to my
>> existance after 2 years of time. I dont know how may are doing this.
>> And we are very much afraid of this.
>>
>> for example same iam showing the link here
>>
>> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/
>>
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo
>>
>>     
>
>
> If you set archive_private to "private" on the lists "Archiving
> Options" page in the admin web interface, the archive will only be
> available to list members who log in with their list pasword. The
> archive links will be of the form
> <http://mail.python.org/mailman/private/mailman-developers/>, and the
> 'pipermail' links won't work.
>   

It might also be a very good idea to set up an IP address restriction 
for the pipermail directory tree in httpd.conf to restrict access to 
your internal network.

From d.drury at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 14:49:13 2008
From: d.drury at gmail.com (Duncan Drury)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:49:13 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yum install of mailman on CentOS 5
In-Reply-To: <4878D4CF.5090804@msapiro.net>
References: <PC18702008071017502305636183ac8a@msapiro>
	<4878D4CF.5090804@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <4156a9150807130549h5674218ak89cd4d13568f60e1@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry for off list posts - Gmail doesn't seem to reply to the list.

There is no access log entry after the one I posted.  I've changed the
redirect to point to
/mailman/admin<http://www.example.com/mailman/listinfo>instead of
/mailman/listinfo and it works.

My suspicion is that for some reason listinfo is giving the wrong content
type, so the browser is downloading the data rather than displaying it.  The
output is mostly binary data.  I'll post it if anyone is interested.

SELinux is disabled.

Thanks,

Duncan

From d.drury at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 15:07:44 2008
From: d.drury at gmail.com (Duncan Drury)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:07:44 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yum install of mailman on CentOS 5
In-Reply-To: <4156a9150807130549h5674218ak89cd4d13568f60e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PC18702008071017502305636183ac8a@msapiro>
	<4878D4CF.5090804@msapiro.net>
	<4156a9150807130549h5674218ak89cd4d13568f60e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4156a9150807130607u3a6d7597q9a3e6f281e30467c@mail.gmail.com>

After bringing the RedirectMatch ^/mailman[/]*$
http://www.example.com/mailman/listinfo directive into my vhost directive
block, listinfo also started working.  I think that the mailman.conf file
created by the rpm might work fine on a server where there is only a single
domain, but not for those hosting other websites.

It is all working well now.

Thanks for all the assistance.

Duncan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jul 13 17:57:11 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 08:57:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yum install of mailman on CentOS 5
In-Reply-To: <4156a9150807130549h5674218ak89cd4d13568f60e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008071308571103431ff82de2@msapiro>

Duncan Drury wrote:
>
>There is no access log entry after the one I posted.


That indicates that the redirect is going to a different server or at
least to a different virtual host with a with a different TransferLog.


>I've changed the
>redirect to point to
>/mailman/admin<http://www.example.com/mailman/listinfo>instead of
>/mailman/listinfo and it works.


That's strange.


>My suspicion is that for some reason listinfo is giving the wrong content
>type, so the browser is downloading the data rather than displaying it.  The
>output is mostly binary data.  I'll post it if anyone is interested.


Whatever is happening, it is Apache, not the browser that is doing it.
The

ScriptAlias /mailman/ /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/

should tell Apache that a GET of any path that begins with /mailman/x
should execute the corresponding /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/x CGI and
return the output of that CGI to the browser.

In your case, it is serving the content of
/usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo (or some listinfo) instead of the
output from executing it. No matter what content-type header it sends,
the wrong thing will result.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jul 13 19:24:19 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:24:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yum install of mailman on CentOS 5
In-Reply-To: <4156a9150807130607u3a6d7597q9a3e6f281e30467c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008071310241904848cc09eb7@msapiro>

Duncan Drury wrote:

>After bringing the RedirectMatch ^/mailman[/]*$
>http://www.example.com/mailman/listinfo directive into my vhost directive
>block, listinfo also started working.  I think that the mailman.conf file
>created by the rpm might work fine on a server where there is only a single
>domain, but not for those hosting other websites.


It shouldn't matter. In my installation, I have

RedirectMatch ^/mailman[/]*$  /mailman/listinfo

in the main configuration prior to any VirtualHost blocks, and it works
just fine for the main server and all virtual hosts. I don't specify a
scheme or a host in my redirect target which just defaults them to the
scheme and host of the original URL which is more appropriate in a
virtual host environment - you don't want to redirect
http://virt1.example.com/mailman to
http://virt2.example.com/mailman/listinfo - but I don't think that
difference should cause the problem you see. (I have reported this
latter situation at
<https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=455185>).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From cris at tompkinsagainstwar.org  Sun Jul 13 21:37:28 2008
From: cris at tompkinsagainstwar.org (Cris McConkey)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:37:28 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] regular_exclude_lists (nondigest) does not work
	with hosting service
Message-ID: <487A5978.2060306@tompkinsagainstwar.org>

I have several lists under one domain.  I'd like to avoid duplicate 
posts when the same message is sent to multiple lists on the domain.  
GNU Mailman version is 2.1.11 supports this.  The hosting service I used 
just updated to GNU Mailman version 2.1.11.

However, when I change the setting for regular_exclude_lists in the 
admin panel for non-digest options, the new setting has no effect and 
duplicate messages are still received by the list.

I am a list owner but not site administrator.  The hosting service 
administers the site.  I have contacted their technical support, but 
mine is probably their first request related to this feature.  So, they 
are slow getting back to me.

I do know that they have disabled monthly password reminders so that it 
doesn't matter what settings I use in that regard, the setting will just 
be ignored.

Might regular_exclude_lists also have been disabled?

I have created a test site to see if starting from scratch I can get it 
to work, but I am still waiting for the DNS to propagate,
*
regular_exclude_lists* (nondigest): Other mailing lists on this site 
whose members are excluded from the regular (non-digest) delivery if 
those list addresses appear in a To: or Cc: header.
-- 

Visit Tompkins County & Ithaca Against the War, weblog for Tompkins 
County War resisters

tompkinsagainstwar.org <http://tompkinsagainstwar.org/>

Subscribe to community event calendar with iCal, Lightning or Sunbird.


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jul 13 22:03:42 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:03:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] regular_exclude_lists (nondigest) does not
	workwith hosting service
In-Reply-To: <487A5978.2060306@tompkinsagainstwar.org>
Message-ID: <PC18702008071313034201098283ee57@msapiro>

Cris McConkey wrote:

>I have several lists under one domain.  I'd like to avoid duplicate 
>posts when the same message is sent to multiple lists on the domain.  
>GNU Mailman version is 2.1.11 supports this.  The hosting service I used 
>just updated to GNU Mailman version 2.1.11.
>
>However, when I change the setting for regular_exclude_lists in the 
>admin panel for non-digest options, the new setting has no effect and 
>duplicate messages are still received by the list.


There are a couple of possibilities. The entries in
regular_exclude_lists must match (case insensitively) the list posting
address found in To: or Cc: to be excluded. I.e., it is the list
posting email address, not just the name.

The other catch is if this is someone's patched Mailman (e.g. cPanel)
where the list posting address is say list at example.com, but the actual
list name as in the web URLs has a domain appended, e.g.
list_example.com, the Sibling lists feature won't work unless that too
is patched.

So, what is the source of this Mailman? Does it perhaps identify itself
as 2.1.11cp1? Does it append the domain to the listname 'behind the
scenes'?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From cris at tompkinsagainstwar.org  Sun Jul 13 23:05:16 2008
From: cris at tompkinsagainstwar.org (Cris McConkey)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:05:16 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] regular_exclude_lists (nondigest) does not
 workwith hosting service
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008071313034201098283ee57@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008071313034201098283ee57@msapiro>
Message-ID: <487A6E0C.8020509@tompkinsagainstwar.org>

Regarding correct form for regular_exclude_lists, which is the correct 
form?

listname-domain at lists.domain

or

listname at lists.domain

?

I have tried both.


There is NO indication of  2.1.11cp1.

I did see the following on my hosting services wiki that:

Due to a recent finding where discussion lists were often breaking due 
to their location in user's home directories, a major change was made to 
the system. Discussion list home directories are no longer publicly 
accessible.

My that somehow interfere with sibling lists?

I'm still waiting for the DNS to propagate so I can test the 
regular_exclude_lists function on a new list rcreated with Mailman 
2.1.11 ather than an old list created before the upgrade to 2.1.11.

Thanks.

--Cris


Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Cris McConkey wrote:
>
>   
>> I have several lists under one domain.  I'd like to avoid duplicate 
>> posts when the same message is sent to multiple lists on the domain.  
>> GNU Mailman version is 2.1.11 supports this.  The hosting service I used 
>> just updated to GNU Mailman version 2.1.11.
>>
>> However, when I change the setting for regular_exclude_lists in the 
>> admin panel for non-digest options, the new setting has no effect and 
>> duplicate messages are still received by the list.
>>     
>
>
> There are a couple of possibilities. The entries in
> regular_exclude_lists must match (case insensitively) the list posting
> address found in To: or Cc: to be excluded. I.e., it is the list
> posting email address, not just the name.
>
> The other catch is if this is someone's patched Mailman (e.g. cPanel)
> where the list posting address is say list at example.com, but the actual
> list name as in the web URLs has a domain appended, e.g.
> list_example.com, the Sibling lists feature won't work unless that too
> is patched.
>
> So, what is the source of this Mailman? Does it perhaps identify itself
> as 2.1.11cp1? Does it append the domain to the listname 'behind the
> scenes'?
>
>   


-- 

Visit Tompkins County & Ithaca Against the War, weblog for Tompkins 
County War resisters

tompkinsagainstwar.org <http://tompkinsagainstwar.org/>

Subscribe to community event calendar with iCal, Lightning or Sunbird.


From brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com  Sun Jul 13 23:41:19 2008
From: brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:41:19 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't create list
Message-ID: <20080713214119.GD239@mrvideo.vidiot.com>

I am getting extremely frustrated.

Keep in mind that the server is on a DSL, static IP, on the LAN side of the DSL
with an IP of 192.168.1.1.  The vidiot.com obviously points to the real outside
address.

If I traceroute vidiot.com, it never goes the the DSlam gateway and back.

Until trying to do things with mailman, having to get at my webpages on the
server via http://localhost/... has not been a problem.

Can't get there via http:/vidiot.com/ as I get the following error:

	404 Not Found
	The requested URL '/mailman/create' was not found on this server.
	
Can not for the life of me figure out why the DocumentRoot is not getting
prepended to the request.  If I knew how it was coming at the server, I might
be able to place something in the config file, but what I've tried hasn't
worked.

If I come at the create with localhost, or 192.168.1.1, I get the following
error:

	Error: Unknown virtual host: localhost
	Error: Unknown virtual host: 192.168.1.1

I'm about ready to make a boat anchor out of this thing.

MB
-- 
e-mail: vidiot at vidiot.com                                /~\ The ASCII
[I've been to Earth.  I know where it is.         ]      \ / Ribbon Campaign
[And I'm gonna take us there.    Starbuck  3/25/07]       X  Against
Visit - URL: http://vidiot.com/                          / \ HTML Email

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jul 13 23:46:37 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:46:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] regular_exclude_lists (nondigest) does not
	workwithhosting service
In-Reply-To: <487A6E0C.8020509@tompkinsagainstwar.org>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807131446370875a5828710@msapiro>

Cris McConkey wrote:

>Regarding correct form for regular_exclude_lists, which is the correct 
>form?
>
>listname-domain at lists.domain
>
>or
>
>listname at lists.domain
>
>?
>
>I have tried both.


The only form that will work is the list posting address which
presumably is listname at lists.domain.

Also, unless Mailman is configured to allow cross domain siblings,
'lists.domain' must be the same as the host_name attribute of the list
you are configuring (on its General Options page).

What is the url you use to visit say the listinfo page for listname? If
it is of the form http://www.example.com/mailman/listinfo/listname,
then regular_exclude_lists should work. If, however, the URL is of the
form http://www.example.com/mailman/listinfo/listname_www.example.com,
then you are dealing with some form of "true virtual hosting" patch
which has probably not been updated for the Sibling lists feature.

In any case, there will be messages in Mailman's error log of the form
'Exclude list %s not found.' or 'Exclude list %s is not in the same
domain.' to indicate what the problem is.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 14 00:03:41 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:03:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't create list
In-Reply-To: <20080713214119.GD239@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807131503410578a58285eb@msapiro>

Mike Brown wrote:

>I am getting extremely frustrated.
>
>Keep in mind that the server is on a DSL, static IP, on the LAN side of the DSL
>with an IP of 192.168.1.1.  The vidiot.com obviously points to the real outside
>address.
>
>If I traceroute vidiot.com, it never goes the the DSlam gateway and back.
>
>Until trying to do things with mailman, having to get at my webpages on the
>server via http://localhost/... has not been a problem.
>
>Can't get there via http:/vidiot.com/ as I get the following error:
>
>	404 Not Found
>	The requested URL '/mailman/create' was not found on this server.


http://vidiot.com/mailman/create works for me. All the above would seem
like network/DNS/router issues. Perhaps from inside your LAN,
http:/vidiot.com/ goes to the wrong box.

	
>Can not for the life of me figure out why the DocumentRoot is not getting
>prepended to the request.


Well, it is a ScriptAlias, so it has nothing to do with the document
root, but as I say, it works for me. I think it would work for you too
if it went to the correct box.


>If I knew how it was coming at the server, I might
>be able to place something in the config file, but what I've tried hasn't
>worked.


The browser sends an http GET for /mailman/create to host vidiot.com.


>If I come at the create with localhost, or 192.168.1.1, I get the following
>error:
>
>	Error: Unknown virtual host: localhost
>	Error: Unknown virtual host: 192.168.1.1
>
>I'm about ready to make a boat anchor out of this thing.


Because those host names are not in the VIRTUAL_HOSTS dictionary. You
could put something like

add_virtualhost('192.168.1.1', '192.168.1.1')

in mm_cfg.py and then create a list in the '192.168.1.1' domain, but
don't do that because the domain '192.168.1.1' will appear everywhere
in that list's links and addresses and it won't work from outside your
LAN.

Fix whatever network issue is preventing you from going to
http://vidiot.com/mailman/create (on the correct box) from inside your
LAN.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com  Mon Jul 14 02:49:48 2008
From: brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 19:49:48 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't create list
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807131503410578a58285eb@msapiro>
References: <20080713214119.GD239@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
	<PC1870200807131503410578a58285eb@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20080714004948.GG239@mrvideo.vidiot.com>

On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 03:03:41PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> http://vidiot.com/mailman/create works for me. All the above would seem
> like network/DNS/router issues. Perhaps from inside your LAN,
> http:/vidiot.com/ goes to the wrong box.

There are zero other boxes on the internal LAN that has a webserver running,
i.e. they are all Windoze boxes.

> >Can not for the life of me figure out why the DocumentRoot is not getting
> >prepended to the request.
> 
> 
> Well, it is a ScriptAlias, so it has nothing to do with the document
> root, but as I say, it works for me. I think it would work for you too
> if it went to the correct box.

While thinking about this and remembering the WebAdmin GUI login box that came
up while trying to go to the root webpage, it dawned on me to try something.
That is I tried logging into the DSL box.  Sure enough, the damn DSL
modem/router is intercepting the outgoing http request.

If the http request comes in via the WAN, i.e., DSL phone line connection,
it gets routed to 192.168.1.1.  But, if a request to my IP address comes in
from the LAN, the damn box intercepts it, instead of passing it through to the
DSL DSLAM gateway and having it send it back.

Not sure how to get around this.  I unfortunately deleted the rest of your
reply, which I think has something in it about this.  So, I'll go read what
you wrote and see if that will work.

MB
-- 
e-mail: vidiot at vidiot.com                                /~\ The ASCII
[I've been to Earth.  I know where it is.         ]      \ / Ribbon Campaign
[And I'm gonna take us there.    Starbuck  3/25/07]       X  Against
Visit - URL: http://vidiot.com/                          / \ HTML Email

From brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com  Mon Jul 14 03:29:19 2008
From: brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:29:19 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't create list
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807131503410578a58285eb@msapiro>
References: <20080713214119.GD239@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
	<PC1870200807131503410578a58285eb@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20080714012919.GJ239@mrvideo.vidiot.com>

On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 03:03:41PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Fix whatever network issue is preventing you from going to
> http://vidiot.com/mailman/create (on the correct box) from inside your
> LAN.

That is not going to be easy.  While adding www.vidiot.com and vidiot.com
to the hosts file works for doing things like ping, which shows that 192.168.1.1
is doing the responding, the Opera browser is not using the OS to do lookups
and is going directly through DNS to look up vidiot.com.  The local hosts
file is therefore ignored. :-(

I do not have bind running locally.  There has been no need for it.  The
resolv.conf file is set to go to my ISP's nameserver and then to the two
nameservers that host my domainname.

If I had a bunch of internal Unix boxes that I needed to be able to communicate
between, then I'd set one up.

While it won't be the easiest thing to do, the best might be to just do admin
from work.

MB
-- 
e-mail: vidiot at vidiot.com                                /~\ The ASCII
[I've been to Earth.  I know where it is.         ]      \ / Ribbon Campaign
[And I'm gonna take us there.    Starbuck  3/25/07]       X  Against
Visit - URL: http://vidiot.com/                          / \ HTML Email

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 14 03:59:57 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:59:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't create list
In-Reply-To: <20080714012919.GJ239@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807131859570859a5828714@msapiro>

Mike Brown wrote:
>
>That is not going to be easy.  While adding www.vidiot.com and vidiot.com
>to the hosts file works for doing things like ping, which shows that 192.168.1.1
>is doing the responding, the Opera browser is not using the OS to do lookups
>and is going directly through DNS to look up vidiot.com.  The local hosts
>file is therefore ignored. :-(
>
>I do not have bind running locally.  There has been no need for it.  The
>resolv.conf file is set to go to my ISP's nameserver and then to the two
>nameservers that host my domainname.
>
>If I had a bunch of internal Unix boxes that I needed to be able to communicate
>between, then I'd set one up.
>
>While it won't be the easiest thing to do, the best might be to just do admin
>from work.


I don't know what your network looks like, but in my case, I have a
router connected to the LAN side of the DSL modem and if I send a
packet from a box on the lan to (e.g.) port 80 at my external IP, the
router knows that is its IP and it routes the packet back to the local
box that's configured in its port forwarding table for port 80 without
ever trying to send it to the WAN.

Also, can you dial out with a modem? I know that's so 20th century, but
it will bypass the DSL box outbound.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From se456 at rohan.id.au  Mon Jul 14 04:04:31 2008
From: se456 at rohan.id.au (Rohan Carly)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 10:04:31 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailmanctl holds ssh window open
Message-ID: <487AB42F.9080407@rohan.id.au>

I am experiencing a problem when I restart Mailman that I don't understand.

If I login as root via ssh and then run:
	/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start

It says "Starting Mailman's master qrunner." and return to a shell prompt.

Fine. But when I exit, the terminal window is stuck open. This doesn't happen 
when restarting other daemons on my system such as Apache.

If I restart Mailman from the console and then exit, it behaves as expected. 
Also restarting from the console in X works normally. The problem seems to be 
limited to ssh / Putty (windows client).

Can anyone tell me what's going on?

-- 
Rohan Carly


From brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com  Mon Jul 14 05:42:10 2008
From: brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:42:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't create list
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807131859570859a5828714@msapiro>
References: <20080714012919.GJ239@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
	<PC1870200807131859570859a5828714@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20080714034210.GM239@mrvideo.vidiot.com>

On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 06:59:57PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> I don't know what your network looks like, but in my case, I have a
> router connected to the LAN side of the DSL modem and if I send a
> packet from a box on the lan to (e.g.) port 80 at my external IP, the
> router knows that is its IP and it routes the packet back to the local
> box that's configured in its port forwarding table for port 80 without
> ever trying to send it to the WAN.

No routers.  Just a 1GB switch and the DSL modem.  The DSL modem is a router,
but do not know if the routing table stuff is only for redirecting WAN stuff
to internal 192 LAN addresses.  There is no manual for the damn thing.

> Also, can you dial out with a modem? I know that's so 20th century, but
> it will bypass the DSL box outbound.

I haven't had a modem attached to a system for a decade :-)

Looks like I'll have to start a nameserver and have it listed first in
resolv.conf so that I can have it point www.vidiot.com and vidiot.com to
the LAN address.

MB
-- 
e-mail: vidiot at vidiot.com                                /~\ The ASCII
[I've been to Earth.  I know where it is.         ]      \ / Ribbon Campaign
[And I'm gonna take us there.    Starbuck  3/25/07]       X  Against
Visit - URL: http://vidiot.com/                          / \ HTML Email

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 14 05:47:34 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:47:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailmanctl holds ssh window open
In-Reply-To: <487AB42F.9080407@rohan.id.au>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807132047340265a58284ab@msapiro>

Rohan Carly wrote:

>I am experiencing a problem when I restart Mailman that I don't understand.
>
>If I login as root via ssh and then run:
>	/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start
>
>It says "Starting Mailman's master qrunner." and return to a shell prompt.
>
>Fine. But when I exit, the terminal window is stuck open. This doesn't happen 
>when restarting other daemons on my system such as Apache.
>
>If I restart Mailman from the console and then exit, it behaves as expected. 
>Also restarting from the console in X works normally. The problem seems to be 
>limited to ssh / Putty (windows client).
>
>Can anyone tell me what's going on?


mailmanctl forks copies of itself which become the master watcher and
the qrunners. These forked copy processes are also attached to your
ssh pseudo tty and sshd waits for them to terminate before closing the
connection. Of course, they don't terminate (we hope) so you
eventually close the connection from your side, but I think your sshd
process still waits.

What is your OS? If you install a /etc/init.d/mailman script (see
<http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node42.html>) and start mailman
via the service command, I think you avoid this issue.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From se456 at rohan.id.au  Mon Jul 14 06:55:06 2008
From: se456 at rohan.id.au (Rohan Carly)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:55:06 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailmanctl holds ssh window open
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807132047340265a58284ab@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200807132047340265a58284ab@msapiro>
Message-ID: <487ADC2A.1040905@rohan.id.au>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Rohan Carly wrote:
> 
>> I am experiencing a problem when I restart Mailman that I don't understand.
>>
>> If I login as root via ssh and then run:
>> 	/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl start
>>
>> It says "Starting Mailman's master qrunner." and return to a shell prompt.
>>
>> Fine. But when I exit, the terminal window is stuck open. This doesn't happen 
>> when restarting other daemons on my system such as Apache.
>>
>> If I restart Mailman from the console and then exit, it behaves as expected. 
>> Also restarting from the console in X works normally. The problem seems to be 
>> limited to ssh / Putty (windows client).
>>
>> Can anyone tell me what's going on?
> 
> 
> mailmanctl forks copies of itself which become the master watcher and
> the qrunners. These forked copy processes are also attached to your
> ssh pseudo tty and sshd waits for them to terminate before closing the
> connection. Of course, they don't terminate (we hope) so you
> eventually close the connection from your side, but I think your sshd
> process still waits.
> 
> What is your OS? If you install a /etc/init.d/mailman script (see
> <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node42.html>) and start mailman
> via the service command, I think you avoid this issue.

I've tried the service command, and it makes no difference.

I'm using Linux (Fedora 7). It already has a Mailman init script. It has a line:
   daemon $PYTHON $MAILMANCTL -s -q start

daemon is a function in /etc/rc.d/functions which does this:
   $nice runuser -s /bin/bash - $user -c "$corelimit >/dev/null 2>&1 ; $*"

Is it possible for mailmanctl to disassociate itself from the terminal?
Would the setsid() system call help?

-- 
Rohan Carly

From timm.stamer at uni-oldenburg.de  Mon Jul 14 09:40:25 2008
From: timm.stamer at uni-oldenburg.de (Timm Stamer)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:40:25 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yum install of mailman on CentOS 5
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008071310241904848cc09eb7@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008071310241904848cc09eb7@msapiro>
Message-ID: <487B02E9.9020605@uni-oldenburg.de>

Hi Duncan,

is SELinux enabled?

[root at box root]# getenforce

If SELinux is enforcing set it temporary into permissive mode by

[root at box root]# setenforce 0

and check your webinterface again.


Timm


Mark Sapiro schrieb:
> Duncan Drury wrote:
> 
>> After bringing the RedirectMatch ^/mailman[/]*$
>> http://www.example.com/mailman/listinfo directive into my vhost directive
>> block, listinfo also started working.  I think that the mailman.conf file
>> created by the rpm might work fine on a server where there is only a single
>> domain, but not for those hosting other websites.
> 
> 
> It shouldn't matter. In my installation, I have
> 
> RedirectMatch ^/mailman[/]*$  /mailman/listinfo
> 
> in the main configuration prior to any VirtualHost blocks, and it works
> just fine for the main server and all virtual hosts. I don't specify a
> scheme or a host in my redirect target which just defaults them to the
> scheme and host of the original URL which is more appropriate in a
> virtual host environment - you don't want to redirect
> http://virt1.example.com/mailman to
> http://virt2.example.com/mailman/listinfo - but I don't think that
> difference should cause the problem you see. (I have reported this
> latter situation at
> <https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=455185>).
> 

From carloswill at gmail.com  Mon Jul 14 17:04:01 2008
From: carloswill at gmail.com (Carlos Williams)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:04:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Deleting Mailman Mbox
Message-ID: <d80f793f0807140804u489703a7y2597fc869021d22d@mail.gmail.com>

I have no idea what happened to my mailman installation. As far as I
can tell from a very basic administrative and user level, it works
perfect with my Postifx install. Only only noticed this was a problem
when I started to migrate my mailman data to a new email server I am
building to replace this old hardware.

When I go to /var/lib/mailman/archives/private - I then see the
mailman.mbox directory. This directory repeats over and over:

[root at mail mailman.mbox]# pwd
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox


I have never seen anything like this and so far this is the only one I
have seen so far with this problem. My only solution to fix it is to
delete everything recursive from
/var/lib/mailman/archives/mailman.mbox. I don't know if this is going
to break anything or what. I notice in my other *.mbox directories,
there is always a file that ends in *.mbox.

[root at mail accounting.mbox]# ls -l
total 149408
-rwxrwxr-x  1 mailman mailman 152834117 Jul 12 13:51 accounting.mbox

As you can see above, I am in the
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/accounting.mbox "directory" and in
that directory there is a identical named file.  My mailman.mbox
directory does not have this file in all of its repetitiveness or at
least I did not see it.

Suggestions on how to fix this problem?


-- 
Man your battle stations...

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 14 17:33:20 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 08:33:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Deleting Mailman Mbox
In-Reply-To: <d80f793f0807140804u489703a7y2597fc869021d22d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807140833200843d6e7711f@msapiro>

Carlos Williams wrote:

>I have no idea what happened to my mailman installation. As far as I
>can tell from a very basic administrative and user level, it works
>perfect with my Postifx install. Only only noticed this was a problem
>when I started to migrate my mailman data to a new email server I am
>building to replace this old hardware.
>
>When I go to /var/lib/mailman/archives/private - I then see the
>mailman.mbox directory. This directory repeats over and over:
>
>[root at mail mailman.mbox]# pwd
>/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox
>
>
>I have never seen anything like this and so far this is the only one I
>have seen so far with this problem. My only solution to fix it is to
>delete everything recursive from
>/var/lib/mailman/archives/mailman.mbox. I don't know if this is going
>to break anything or what. I notice in my other *.mbox directories,
>there is always a file that ends in *.mbox.


Someone else reported a similar symptom a month or two ago. (I just
tried to find this in the archive, and I see it was you, not someone
else.)

I have no idea how this happened. I suspect somehow instead of
mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox being a file, it somehow became a link back
to its parent. If this is the case, even "rm -rf
/var/lib/mailman/archives/mailman.mbox" may not succeed because it may
loop indefinitely, but it's worth a try.

At worst, you might be able to "mv
/var/lib/mailman/archives/mailman.mbox junk". Then you could create a
new /var/lib/mailman/archives/mailman.mbox directory and empty
/var/lib/mailman/archives/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox file with the same
ownership and permissions as the good ones.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From carloswill at gmail.com  Mon Jul 14 18:11:01 2008
From: carloswill at gmail.com (Carlos Williams)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:11:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Deleting Mailman Mbox
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807140833200843d6e7711f@msapiro>
References: <d80f793f0807140804u489703a7y2597fc869021d22d@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1870200807140833200843d6e7711f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <d80f793f0807140911v4ba6f9efm13f060d11d7659f0@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>
> Someone else reported a similar symptom a month or two ago. (I just
> tried to find this in the archive, and I see it was you, not someone
> else.)

Yes - I reported this during my migration help email. It was me...

> I have no idea how this happened. I suspect somehow instead of
> mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox being a file, it somehow became a link back
> to its parent. If this is the case, even "rm -rf
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/mailman.mbox" may not succeed because it may
> loop indefinitely, but it's worth a try.
>
> At worst, you might be able to "mv
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/mailman.mbox junk". Then you could create a
> new /var/lib/mailman/archives/mailman.mbox directory and empty
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox file with the same
> ownership and permissions as the good ones.

So I think I am simply going to just "rm -rf
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/mailman.mbox/mailman.box"

This will retain the first mailman.box directory which is expected to
be there and then remove everything beyond that.
I will then assume at some point Mailman will attempt to re-generate a
mailbox.mbox file in that directory. Do you think this is a bad idea?

From acravens at uen.org  Mon Jul 14 18:09:26 2008
From: acravens at uen.org (Andy Cravens)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 10:09:26 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Runaway python process
Message-ID: <487B7A36.10608@uen.org>

I'm running Mailman 2.1.9 on Solaris 10.  Sometime this weekend we had a 
mail loop which pounded our list server.  The mail loop has been fixed 
but there is a python process that is consuming an entire cpu.  Further 
inspection of this process reveals:

qrunner --runner=ArchRunner:0:1 -s

I'm assuming that ArchRunner is a process that archives incoming 
messages and that mailman is in the process of archiving all those 
thousands of messages that were received due to the mail loop. 

I've been searching the mailman site and also googling to find a way to 
discard all those bogus messages.  I'm getting pressure to fix this  
fast because people cannot log in to the web interface because the 
server is pegged due to this process.

So, 1)  I'd like to know if I'm going down the right path assuming 
mailman is busy archiving all those messages and 2)  How can I get it to 
stop?

I'm going to log into the web interface even though it will forever to 
get the page to come up and I will try disabling archiving fir the 
affected list.  Not sure if that will stop the archiving that is already 
happening or not but I'm going to give it a try.

--
Andy

From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Mon Jul 14 18:36:15 2008
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:36:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Runaway python process
In-Reply-To: <487B7A36.10608@uen.org>
References: <487B7A36.10608@uen.org>
Message-ID: <200807141635.m6EGZk68030981@newbox.eroded.org>

Andy Cravens wrote:
>I'm running Mailman 2.1.9 on Solaris 10.  Sometime this weekend we 
>had a mail loop which pounded our list server.  The mail loop has 
>been fixed but there is a python process that is consuming an entire 
>cpu.  Further inspection of this process reveals:
>
>qrunner --runner=ArchRunner:0:1 -s
>
>I'm assuming that ArchRunner is a process that archives incoming 
>messages and that mailman is in the process of archiving all those 
>thousands of messages that were received due to the mail loop.
>I've been searching the mailman site and also googling to find a way 
>to discard all those bogus messages.  I'm getting pressure to fix this
>fast because people cannot log in to the web interface because the 
>server is pegged due to this process.
>
>So, 1)  I'd like to know if I'm going down the right path assuming 
>mailman is busy archiving all those messages and 2)  How can I get it to stop?
>
>I'm going to log into the web interface even though it will forever 
>to get the page to come up and I will try disabling archiving fir 
>the affected list.  Not sure if that will stop the archiving that is 
>already happening or not but I'm going to give it a try.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

I'd suggest killing the archive runner process. And then disabling 
archiving in the web interface. Then you can go in and remove the 
offending files from qfiles/archive (though exactly what needs to be 
done there I am not certain).

You probably also want to remove the offending messages from the mbox 
files for the lists and then rebuild the archives without them, 
though there are issues with possibly breaking links to messages in 
the archives.

Once you have things cleaned up, you can restart mailman and 
re-enable archiving.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From acravens at uen.org  Mon Jul 14 18:50:14 2008
From: acravens at uen.org (Andy Cravens)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 10:50:14 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Runaway python process
In-Reply-To: <200807141635.m6EGZk68030981@newbox.eroded.org>
References: <487B7A36.10608@uen.org>
	<200807141635.m6EGZk68030981@newbox.eroded.org>
Message-ID: <487B83C6.80309@uen.org>

Dragon wrote:
> Andy Cravens wrote:
>> I'm running Mailman 2.1.9 on Solaris 10.  Sometime this weekend we 
>> had a mail loop which pounded our list server.  The mail loop has 
>> been fixed but there is a python process that is consuming an entire 
>> cpu.  Further inspection of this process reveals:
>>
>> qrunner --runner=ArchRunner:0:1 -s
>>
>> I'm assuming that ArchRunner is a process that archives incoming 
>> messages and that mailman is in the process of archiving all those 
>> thousands of messages that were received due to the mail loop.
>> I've been searching the mailman site and also googling to find a way 
>> to discard all those bogus messages.  I'm getting pressure to fix this
>> fast because people cannot log in to the web interface because the 
>> server is pegged due to this process.
>>
>> So, 1)  I'd like to know if I'm going down the right path assuming 
>> mailman is busy archiving all those messages and 2)  How can I get it 
>> to stop?
>>
>> I'm going to log into the web interface even though it will forever 
>> to get the page to come up and I will try disabling archiving fir the 
>> affected list.  Not sure if that will stop the archiving that is 
>> already happening or not but I'm going to give it a try.
> ---------------- End original message. ---------------------
>
> I'd suggest killing the archive runner process. And then disabling 
> archiving in the web interface. Then you can go in and remove the 
> offending files from qfiles/archive (though exactly what needs to be 
> done there I am not certain).
>
> You probably also want to remove the offending messages from the mbox 
> files for the lists and then rebuild the archives without them, though 
> there are issues with possibly breaking links to messages in the 
> archives.
>
> Once you have things cleaned up, you can restart mailman and re-enable 
> archiving.
>
> Dragon
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/acravens%40uen.org
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9

Problem solved.   I already killed that qrunner process so that I could 
edit the archive options via the web interface.  The key was deleting 
the 25,000 files from qfiles/archive.  and then restarting mailman.  I 
probably deleted some other legit archives to other lists in the process 
but at least we're back up.   Probably should have done a selective 
delete by grepping for the list name within the file but oh well...

Thanks for pointing me to qfiles/archive.  I learned something.

--
Andy


From brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com  Mon Jul 14 19:09:49 2008
From: brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:09:49 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't create list
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807131503410578a58285eb@msapiro>
References: <20080713214119.GD239@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
	<PC1870200807131503410578a58285eb@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20080714170949.GA10335@mrvideo.vidiot.com>

On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 03:03:41PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Because those host names are not in the VIRTUAL_HOSTS dictionary. You
> could put something like
> 
> add_virtualhost('192.168.1.1', '192.168.1.1')
> 
> in mm_cfg.py and then create a list in the '192.168.1.1' domain, but
> don't do that because the domain '192.168.1.1' will appear everywhere
> in that list's links and addresses and it won't work from outside your
> LAN.

I tried it from work and got the same problem, virtual host unknown: vidiot.com

MB
-- 
e-mail: vidiot at vidiot.com                                /~\ The ASCII
[I've been to Earth.  I know where it is.         ]      \ / Ribbon Campaign
[And I'm gonna take us there.    Starbuck  3/25/07]       X  Against
Visit - URL: http://vidiot.com/                          / \ HTML Email

From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Jul 14 19:32:53 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:32:53 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <4877174A.1030303@lcwords.com>
References: <200807102042.m6AKgd48015176@julie.lostwells.net>
	<4876933A.4090205@shub-internet.org>
	<87mykon8eu.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4877174A.1030303@lcwords.com>
Message-ID: <87d4lg5q2i.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Zbigniew Szalbot writes:

 > 1/ Mailman as a discussion list - like the one we're having here. I 
 > don't imagine spammers would be setting up their lists as discussion 
 > list, would they? I don't actually imagine big time spammers using 
 > mailman. They're all about botnets.

Big time spammers won't use Mailman, true, but we can't predict how
they will format their messages.  If formatting messages like Mailman
discussion lists makes it more likely they'll be delivered to end
users, they'll do that.  They avoid getting return mail simply by not
running MTA servers!

 > I'd love to see Mailman giving me an option to create either
 > discussion or announcement list with pre-set features for each of
 > them. One of these pre-sets could be in fact the presence or
 > absence of mass-subscribe feature defined per list during list
 > creation.

Barry for Mailman 3 has been talking about making Mailman easier to
configure, and I'm sure Mark would consider adding improved config
tools to 2.2.  But (my impression is that) all of the developers have
Usenet/devel list backgrounds.  Clear and detailed lists of needed
features, eg, what currently unconfigurable behavior needs to be
configurable, and how.  So the mass subscribe feature is a good
example of a configuration need, and it needs not only to be on/off,
but some kind of rate limit seems to be desirable.  (Even though
Cyndi's ISP decided not to allow it, it was attractive enough that
they considered it seriously.)

I think these features would be best described on the wiki (but there
doesn't seem to be an obvious place for the community's wishlist as
opposed to developer proposals), and discussed on mailman-developers.

 > However, if I understand the current trends, discussion lists are
 > dropped in favour of online forums and newsletter/marketing tools
 > are more and more sought after.

On the other hand, the people who can actually contribute code to
Mailman are so far more versed in the discussion lists.

 > This is a market to gain for Mailman but it currently lacks a few
 > features to do that. Well, my post is slowly getting off topic

But IMO it would be quite on-topic for mailman-developers.  This kind
of post would be more effective in inciting dev activity if more
focused.  Eg, rather than talking about "markets to gain", which
sounds good but generally doesn't attract a lot of dev effort, talk
about specific tasks and their needs, and the specific features that
could be extended or added to satisfy them.  Remember, AIUI at least,
the devs have little experience with these usages so concrete details
of requirements would be very helpful.




From ge at linuxbox.org  Mon Jul 14 19:25:08 2008
From: ge at linuxbox.org (Gadi Evron)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:25:08 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman servers coordination: find spammers
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0807141220500.26086@linuxbox.org>

I often see addresses popping up and subscribing to all visible lists on 
my servers.

Sometimes they're a curious individual, and most times they are spammers 
harversting addresses (as these are open only to admin).

I wonder what the coding "price" would be, if it can even work with 
mailman, to create a central trusted DB which watched subscription trends?

1. It could be used for security.
2. It could fight spammers on the mailman front.
3. If we deal with the security and privacy implications of the first 
two, or want a constructive cause--collect cool trends and provide with a 
mailing lists index by tag words and activity. Think technorati..

This of course, is just a neat idea. Thoughts?

Thanks,

 	Gadi.

From japruim at raoset.com  Mon Jul 14 19:50:34 2008
From: japruim at raoset.com (Jason Pruim)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:50:34 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman servers coordination: find spammers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0807141220500.26086@linuxbox.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0807141220500.26086@linuxbox.org>
Message-ID: <CE44E4E6-C9B3-4B96-8F42-E8D094BBF1B9@raoset.com>

First, I think it would have better luck on the developers mailing  
list :)

But as for the idea, I think it could work, but someone would have to  
provide the hosting for the database that would hold all the info. And  
we would have to figure out who would be a "trusted" source to report  
the spam.... My spam might be your ham... I need lunch hehe

In general though I like the idea and would love to hear from others  
on it as well :)


On Jul 14, 2008, at 1:25 PM, Gadi Evron wrote:

> I often see addresses popping up and subscribing to all visible  
> lists on my servers.
>
> Sometimes they're a curious individual, and most times they are  
> spammers harversting addresses (as these are open only to admin).
>
> I wonder what the coding "price" would be, if it can even work with  
> mailman, to create a central trusted DB which watched subscription  
> trends?
>
> 1. It could be used for security.
> 2. It could fight spammers on the mailman front.
> 3. If we deal with the security and privacy implications of the  
> first two, or want a constructive cause--collect cool trends and  
> provide with a mailing lists index by tag words and activity. Think  
> technorati..
>
> This of course, is just a neat idea. Thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
>
> 	Gadi.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/japruim%40raoset.com
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>

--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
11287 James St
Holland, MI 49424
www.raoset.com
japruim at raoset.com





From zipfel at greenacrestechnology.com  Mon Jul 14 20:08:05 2008
From: zipfel at greenacrestechnology.com (Krystal Zipfel)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:08:05 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman servers coordination: find spammers
In-Reply-To: <CE44E4E6-C9B3-4B96-8F42-E8D094BBF1B9@raoset.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0807141220500.26086@linuxbox.org>
	<CE44E4E6-C9B3-4B96-8F42-E8D094BBF1B9@raoset.com>
Message-ID: <487B9605.3090106@greenacrestechnology.com>

The problem I see with this is much like the DNSBLs and Block lists 
(spamhaus?).

As Jason put it, one person's spam could very much be another person's 
ham, so mail starts getting rejected by those who outright trust such a 
database and it is hell trying to get removed from those said lists.

Not to mention, there is so much forgery and many changes to spam tricks 
that even SA has to keep up with it. :-(

Personally, I think spam filtering/watching/fighting should be done per 
server, per user, etc. Would be real nice if the ISP's would start doing 
that...

My opinion. :-)

Jason Pruim wrote:
> First, I think it would have better luck on the developers mailing 
> list :)
>
> But as for the idea, I think it could work, but someone would have to 
> provide the hosting for the database that would hold all the info. And 
> we would have to figure out who would be a "trusted" source to report 
> the spam.... My spam might be your ham... I need lunch hehe
>
> In general though I like the idea and would love to hear from others 
> on it as well :)
>
>
> On Jul 14, 2008, at 1:25 PM, Gadi Evron wrote:
>
>> I often see addresses popping up and subscribing to all visible lists 
>> on my servers.
>>
>> Sometimes they're a curious individual, and most times they are 
>> spammers harversting addresses (as these are open only to admin).
>>
>> I wonder what the coding "price" would be, if it can even work with 
>> mailman, to create a central trusted DB which watched subscription 
>> trends?
>>
>> 1. It could be used for security.
>> 2. It could fight spammers on the mailman front.
>> 3. If we deal with the security and privacy implications of the first 
>> two, or want a constructive cause--collect cool trends and provide 
>> with a mailing lists index by tag words and activity. Think technorati..
>>
>> This of course, is just a neat idea. Thoughts?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>     Gadi.
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> Mailman-Users mailing list
>> Mailman-Users at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>> Searchable Archives: 
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>> Unsubscribe: 
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/japruim%40raoset.com 
>>
>>
>> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>>
>
> -- 
>
> Jason Pruim
> Raoset Inc.
> Technology Manager
> MQC Specialist
> 11287 James St
> Holland, MI 49424
> www.raoset.com
> japruim at raoset.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/zipfel%40greenacrestechnology.com 
>
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>


From skip at pobox.com  Mon Jul 14 21:45:14 2008
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:45:14 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Updated mmfold.py
Message-ID: <18555.44234.624664.534823@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>

A long time ago I wrote a small Python script to allow me to easily manage
held messages for a number of Mailman-managed mailing lists.  It worked well
for me, but was still a bit cumbersome because it required me to enter the
admin or moderator password for each list.  I fixed that a few days ago,
allowing urls to include the admpw parameter, e.g.:

    http://mail.python.org/mailman/admindb/list1?admpw=XYZABC

This makes it *much* easier to use.  I can now run through the held messages
in 11 Python-related lists in less than a minute (most lists don't actually
have any held messages) with a shell function like this:

    function mmcheck {
        for url in \
            http://mail.python.org/mailman/admindb/list1?admpw=XYZABC \
            http://mail.python.org/mailman/admindb/list2?admpw=ABCXYZ \
            http://mail.python.org/mailman/admindb/list3?admpw=FOOBAR \
            http://mail.python.org/mailman/admindb/list4?admpw=BARFOOD \
            ...
        ; do
            python ~/tmp/py/mmfold.py $url
        done
    }

The output looks like this:

    % mmcheck
    no messages await review for spambayes
    no messages await review for spambayes-dev
    2 items sent to browser for review
    no messages await review for python-3000
    no messages await review for python-mode
    no messages await review for pydotorg
    no messages await review for python-dev
    1 items sent to browser for review
    1 items sent to browser for review
    no messages await review for csv
    1 items sent to browser for review

Only those lists with pending messages generate pages in my web browser.
Just wait for the function to finish and then visit the resulting pages
(generally each will pop up in a separate tab, though I suspect that depends
on your default browser).

Unless you're running this on a shared machine there should be little risk
in recording list passwords in a file.  (If you manage several lists you
probably have them recorded online somewhere anyway.)

The updated mmfold.py script is here:

    http://www.webfast.com/~skip/python/mmfold.py

Let me know if you have any questions or comments.

-- 
Skip Montanaro - skip at pobox.com - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
------
ELON MUSK: If fuel cells were good, don't think you'd see them somewhere, like
maybe in a laptop or a cell phone or a $200 million military satellite maybe?
And yet, where do you see them?
SPENCER MICHELS: You don't.
ELON MUSK: Exactly.

From brad at shub-internet.org  Mon Jul 14 21:46:53 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:46:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman servers coordination: find spammers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0807141220500.26086@linuxbox.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0807141220500.26086@linuxbox.org>
Message-ID: <55485279-E110-4786-B86F-E337192262A4@shub-internet.org>

Gadi,

I think we could certainly do this, but we would need to carefully  
vette the subscriptions to try to keep the more advanced spammers from  
sneaking in.

Feel free to discuss this with me offline, if you like.

-- 
Brad Knowles

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 14, 2008, at 10:25 AM, Gadi Evron <ge at linuxbox.org> wrote:

> I often see addresses popping up and subscribing to all visible  
> lists on my servers.
>
> Sometimes they're a curious individual, and most times they are  
> spammers harversting addresses (as these are open only to admin).
>
> I wonder what the coding "price" would be, if it can even work with  
> mailman, to create a central trusted DB which watched subscription  
> trends?
>
> 1. It could be used for security.
> 2. It could fight spammers on the mailman front.
> 3. If we deal with the security and privacy implications of the  
> first two, or want a constructive cause--collect cool trends and  
> provide with a mailing lists index by tag words and activity. Think  
> technorati..
>
> This of course, is just a neat idea. Thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
>
>    Gadi.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/brad%40shub-internet.org
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9

From z.szalbot at lcwords.com  Mon Jul 14 22:34:13 2008
From: z.szalbot at lcwords.com (Zbigniew Szalbot)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 22:34:13 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <87d4lg5q2i.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <200807102042.m6AKgd48015176@julie.lostwells.net>	<4876933A.4090205@shub-internet.org>	<87mykon8eu.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<4877174A.1030303@lcwords.com>
	<87d4lg5q2i.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <487BB845.6000901@lcwords.com>

Hi there,

Stephen J. Turnbull:

>  > This is a market to gain for Mailman but it currently lacks a few
>  > features to do that. Well, my post is slowly getting off topic
> 
> But IMO it would be quite on-topic for mailman-developers.  This kind
> of post would be more effective in inciting dev activity if more
> focused.  Eg, rather than talking about "markets to gain", which
> sounds good but generally doesn't attract a lot of dev effort, talk
> about specific tasks and their needs, and the specific features that
> could be extended or added to satisfy them.  Remember, AIUI at least,
> the devs have little experience with these usages so concrete details
> of requirements would be very helpful.

You're absolutely right, but given that I cannot really sponsor new 
Mailman features I felt not quite an appropriate person to suggest them. 
I am trying to give some of my time to handle Polish translation of 
Mailman but this is about all I can give to this project.

If there's a space to do so and people willing to discuss what it would 
take to make Mailman more marketing-wise friendly tool, I'd be happy to 
contribute. :)

Kind regards,

-- 
Zbigniew Szalbot
www.LCWords.com

From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Jul 14 23:39:00 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:39:00 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Deleting Mailman Mbox
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807140833200843d6e7711f@msapiro>
References: <d80f793f0807140804u489703a7y2597fc869021d22d@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1870200807140833200843d6e7711f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <877ibo5eob.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > I have no idea how this happened. I suspect somehow instead of
 > mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox being a file, it somehow became a link back
 > to its parent. If this is the case, even "rm -rf
 > /var/lib/mailman/archives/mailman.mbox" may not succeed because it may
 > loop indefinitely, but it's worth a try.

Also try "rm -f /var/lib/mailman/archives/mailman.mbox/mailman.mbox"
(no "-r" option), which should work if the target is a symlink.


From brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com  Tue Jul 15 04:23:46 2008
From: brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:23:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't create list
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807141904460250445fed28@Notebook>
References: <20080714170949.GA10335@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
	<PC1870200807141904460250445fed28@Notebook>
Message-ID: <20080715022346.GC15054@mrvideo.vidiot.com>

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 07:04:46PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Put the following in mm_cfg.py
> 
> DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'vidiot.com'
> DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'vidiot.com'

Those two lines were there.

> VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()

Don't see this mentioned in the Defaults.py file.

> add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

Missed this being described in the Defaults.py file.

Thanks for pointing it out.  We'll see how far I get tomorrow.

MB
-- 
e-mail: vidiot at vidiot.com                                /~\ The ASCII
[I've been to Earth.  I know where it is.         ]      \ / Ribbon Campaign
[And I'm gonna take us there.    Starbuck  3/25/07]       X  Against
Visit - URL: http://vidiot.com/                          / \ HTML Email

From ge at linuxbox.org  Tue Jul 15 04:38:03 2008
From: ge at linuxbox.org (Gadi Evron)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:38:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] honeypot lists Re: mailman servers coordination:
 find spammers
In-Reply-To: <487B9605.3090106@greenacrestechnology.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0807141220500.26086@linuxbox.org>
	<CE44E4E6-C9B3-4B96-8F42-E8D094BBF1B9@raoset.com>
	<487B9605.3090106@greenacrestechnology.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0807142137160.26086@linuxbox.org>

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008, Krystal Zipfel wrote:
> The problem I see with this is much like the DNSBLs and Block lists 
> (spamhaus?).
>
> As Jason put it, one person's spam could very much be another person's ham, 
> so mail starts getting rejected by those who outright trust such a database 
> and it is hell trying to get removed from those said lists.
>
> Not to mention, there is so much forgery and many changes to spam tricks that 
> even SA has to keep up with it. :-(
>
> Personally, I think spam filtering/watching/fighting should be done per 
> server, per user, etc. Would be real nice if the ISP's would start doing 
> that...
>
> My opinion. :-)

Well, one immediate solution that helps is starting another list or two, 
as a honeypot, and seeing who subscribes.

 	Gadi.

>
> Jason Pruim wrote:
>> First, I think it would have better luck on the developers mailing list :)
>> 
>> But as for the idea, I think it could work, but someone would have to 
>> provide the hosting for the database that would hold all the info. And we 
>> would have to figure out who would be a "trusted" source to report the 
>> spam.... My spam might be your ham... I need lunch hehe
>> 
>> In general though I like the idea and would love to hear from others on it 
>> as well :)
>> 
>> 
>> On Jul 14, 2008, at 1:25 PM, Gadi Evron wrote:
>> 
>>> I often see addresses popping up and subscribing to all visible lists on 
>>> my servers.
>>> 
>>> Sometimes they're a curious individual, and most times they are spammers 
>>> harversting addresses (as these are open only to admin).
>>> 
>>> I wonder what the coding "price" would be, if it can even work with 
>>> mailman, to create a central trusted DB which watched subscription trends?
>>> 
>>> 1. It could be used for security.
>>> 2. It could fight spammers on the mailman front.
>>> 3. If we deal with the security and privacy implications of the first two, 
>>> or want a constructive cause--collect cool trends and provide with a 
>>> mailing lists index by tag words and activity. Think technorati..
>>> 
>>> This of course, is just a neat idea. Thoughts?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>>     Gadi.
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>> Mailman-Users mailing list
>>> Mailman-Users at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>>> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>>> Searchable Archives: 
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>>> Unsubscribe: 
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/japruim%40raoset.com 
>>> 
>>> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> Jason Pruim
>> Raoset Inc.
>> Technology Manager
>> MQC Specialist
>> 11287 James St
>> Holland, MI 49424
>> www.raoset.com
>> japruim at raoset.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> Mailman-Users mailing list
>> Mailman-Users at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>> Searchable Archives: 
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>> Unsubscribe: 
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/zipfel%40greenacrestechnology.com 
>> 
>> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>> 
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/ge%40linuxbox.org
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 15 04:22:07 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 19:22:07 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't create list
In-Reply-To: <20080714170949.GA10335@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
References: <20080714170949.GA10335@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
Message-ID: <487C09CF.7040909@msapiro.net>

Mike Brown wrote:
 >
 >I tried it from work and got the same problem, virtual host unknown:
 >vidiot.com


Then vidiot.com is not a url host in the VIRTUAL_HOSTS dictionary.

Put the following in mm_cfg.py

DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'vidiot.com'
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'vidiot.com'
VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 15 04:20:17 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 19:20:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Deleting Mailman Mbox
In-Reply-To: <d80f793f0807140911v4ba6f9efm13f060d11d7659f0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d80f793f0807140911v4ba6f9efm13f060d11d7659f0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <487C0961.1050708@msapiro.net>

Carlos Williams wrote:
 >
 >So I think I am simply going to just "rm -rf
 >/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/mailman.mbox/mailman.box"
 >
 >This will retain the first mailman.box directory which is expected to
 >be there and then remove everything beyond that.
 >I will then assume at some point Mailman will attempt to re-generate a
 >mailbox.mbox file in that directory. Do you think this is a bad idea?

No. I think it is a good idea.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 15 08:32:47 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 23:32:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't create list
In-Reply-To: <20080715022346.GC15054@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
References: <20080714170949.GA10335@mrvideo.vidiot.com>	<PC1870200807141904460250445fed28@Notebook>
	<20080715022346.GC15054@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
Message-ID: <487C448F.4000703@msapiro.net>

Mike Brown wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 07:04:46PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
>> Put the following in mm_cfg.py
>>
>> DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'vidiot.com'
>> DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'vidiot.com'
> 
> Those two lines were there.
> 
>> VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()
> 
> Don't see this mentioned in the Defaults.py file.


It's not. What's in Defaults.py is

VIRTUAL_HOSTS = {}

and

add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

These two things initialize VIRTUAL_HOSTS to an empty dictionary and 
then add the DEFAULT_URL_HOST: DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST entry.

When you change DEFAULT_URL_HOST and/or DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST in mm_cfg.py, 
you want to clear the VIRTUAL_HOSTS dictionary and start over. Granted, 
Defaults.py only mentions putting the add_virtualhost in mm_cfg.py, and 
it isn't strictly necessary to remove the original entry from 
Defaults.py, but I think it's good to do. See <http://wiki.list.org/x/gIA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From kmcarthu at bates.edu  Tue Jul 15 14:14:22 2008
From: kmcarthu at bates.edu (Karen R McArthur)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:14:22 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] password choice
Message-ID: <487C949E.1070201@bates.edu>

We do not want users using their network password as their mailman 
password.  Is there some way to modify the Mailman code so that users 
are NOT given the option to choose their own password?
-- 
Karen R. McArthur <kmcarthu at bates.edu>
Systems Administrator
Information and Library Services, Bates College
Lewiston, Maine 04240 USA
ph:(207)786-8236   fax:(207)786-6057

If you find that everybody else is right and you're wrong,
it might just be that you're thinking outside the box. The
world is yet to catch up.

From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Tue Jul 15 18:40:22 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:40:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Invitation time limit
Message-ID: <20080715174841.4D6275F550@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>

Just got the following from somebody that wanted to participate and I invited. Is the 3 day limit built in and/or a default? It sure seems short to me, I would think that 14 days would be much more appropriate. As in this particular case, three days is a common length for folks to be gone for long weekends. And, it makes administrators work more than they should have to, what with having to sign people up more than once.

Also, it would be helpful to be able to see the current list of invitees, but I cannot find a web page that displays that.

>Michael, thanks for the invite. When I reply it says that I?m past the 3 day invitation period. Please add me again and this time I?ll get right on it. 



From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 15 20:30:58 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:30:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Invitation time limit
In-Reply-To: <20080715174841.4D6275F550@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
References: <20080715174841.4D6275F550@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <487CECE2.9030808@msapiro.net>

Michael Welch wrote:
> Just got the following from somebody that wanted to participate and I
> invited. Is the 3 day limit built in and/or a default? It sure seems
> short to me, I would think that 14 days would be much more
> appropriate. As in this particular case, three days is a common
> length for folks to be gone for long weekends. And, it makes
> administrators work more than they should have to, what with having
> to sign people up more than once.


The limit is a global Defaults.py/mm_cfg.py setting 
(PENDING_REQUEST_LIFE) with a default of three days which applies to all 
pending requests.


> Also, it would be helpful to be able to see the current list of
> invitees, but I cannot find a web page that displays that.


It's not in the web UI. There's a script at 
<http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/list_pending>, but that won't help 
without command line access.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From savoy at uleth.ca  Tue Jul 15 21:29:26 2008
From: savoy at uleth.ca (Savoy, Jim)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:29:26 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <200807102306.m6AN6fm1030861@a.mail.sonic.net>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net><7ff145960807091954t7ce890bejbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com><200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic.net><20080710182911.BEDF35F5ED@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com><48765BBE.1050201@shub-internet.org><Pine.OSX.4.58.0807101401220.76202@albion.stonejongleux.com>
	<200807102306.m6AN6fm1030861@a.mail.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <366860B666E21241A76B26156DC56E0BA00B7C@EXCHCL2.uleth.ca>

 
   I guess we might be considered a fascist regime, but mass-subscribe
is an invauable tool here at our university. Hardly any of our lists are
opt-in (what a nightmare that would be for us - we need our lists up
and populated on exact dates and ready to roll). We have class lists,
lab lists, club lists, team lists, student lists, employee lists,
security lists (some of which contain every soul on our campus - rarely
ever used (never used yet, in fact, knock wood) for Virginia Tech-type
campus-wide emergencies, etc).

   Many of the lists are automatically populated by cron on certain
dates.
There is very little involvement really, and all of the email addresses
used
to populate these lists are from our own domains. Sure we have the odd
cranky
professor or student who wants off, and we comply by setting their
no-mail
flag for them (unless it's the security list - they have no opt-out
option
on that one (and a few others) and that is written into their contract
when
they aquire an account from us).

   But in all these years, we've had very few complaints and everything
has run
very smoothly. We usually comply quickly if someone wants out, but we
would
never in a million years want people to have to opt-in! That would truly
be
a disaster (confused users, thousands of phone calls and help queries,
and
worst of all, porously-populated, inconsistent lists, with no guarantees
that
the right students got critical class/lab-related messages, etc). This
invisible
behind-the-scenes subscription method is the way to go for us. None of
our
Mailman subscribers even know they have their own list passwords, and we
don't want them to! (I'd say about .01% are clever/curious enough to
figure
it out - I'm not implying that they are dopes, but rather they are just
overwhelmed by the hundreds of new things they have to learn coming to a
university - we don't want to pile on with even more stuff they need to
know).

I think that by running the server ourselves (and using only addresses
from our
domains) warrants this admittedly fascist attitude. Perhaps the safest
way to
handle this (in future releases) is to make mass-subscribe=NO the
default setting
for new installs, but not removing the option altogether. Thanks.

 - jim -

PS I am pretty sure that this discussion only involves removing
mass-subscribe
   from the GUI (and not the command line) but many of our lists require
mass-
   subscribes on certain dates from the GUI as well (usually conducted
by the
   departmental secretaries).

From zipfel at greenacrestechnology.com  Tue Jul 15 21:46:52 2008
From: zipfel at greenacrestechnology.com (Krystal Zipfel)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:46:52 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <366860B666E21241A76B26156DC56E0BA00B7C@EXCHCL2.uleth.ca>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net><7ff145960807091954t7ce890bejbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com><200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic.net><20080710182911.BEDF35F5ED@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com><48765BBE.1050201@shub-internet.org><Pine.OSX.4.58.0807101401220.76202@albion.stonejongleux.com>	<200807102306.m6AN6fm1030861@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<366860B666E21241A76B26156DC56E0BA00B7C@EXCHCL2.uleth.ca>
Message-ID: <487CFEAC.2020403@greenacrestechnology.com>

Hello Jim,

"I think that by running the server ourselves (and using only addresses
from our domains) warrants this admittedly fascist attitude. Perhaps the safest way to handle this (in future releases) is to make mass-subscribe=NO the default setting for new installs, but not removing the option altogether."

I think you hit the issue right on the nose. As a private entity running 
your own servers, and especially for the use you have it makes perfect 
sense to run it as you are. As a (lifetime) student at Duquesne, it's 
the exact same way. I get e-mailed no matter what, I attend school 
there, that was my opt-in.

But ISP's have a different liability. Just as you control your servers, 
we have to control ours and cannot afford having AT&T block an entire 
server block because someone hit the "spam button" instead of 
unsubscribing (even when legit).

I still like the option you offered, on and off. Adding the ability to 
limit how many in a day or at one time or what have you would be nice as 
well, but everyone has a different purpose in life. :-)

-Krystal


Savoy, Jim wrote:
>  
>    I guess we might be considered a fascist regime, but mass-subscribe
> is an invauable tool here at our university. Hardly any of our lists are
> opt-in (what a nightmare that would be for us - we need our lists up
> and populated on exact dates and ready to roll). We have class lists,
> lab lists, club lists, team lists, student lists, employee lists,
> security lists (some of which contain every soul on our campus - rarely
> ever used (never used yet, in fact, knock wood) for Virginia Tech-type
> campus-wide emergencies, etc).
>
>    Many of the lists are automatically populated by cron on certain
> dates.
> There is very little involvement really, and all of the email addresses
> used
> to populate these lists are from our own domains. Sure we have the odd
> cranky
> professor or student who wants off, and we comply by setting their
> no-mail
> flag for them (unless it's the security list - they have no opt-out
> option
> on that one (and a few others) and that is written into their contract
> when
> they aquire an account from us).
>
>    But in all these years, we've had very few complaints and everything
> has run
> very smoothly. We usually comply quickly if someone wants out, but we
> would
> never in a million years want people to have to opt-in! That would truly
> be
> a disaster (confused users, thousands of phone calls and help queries,
> and
> worst of all, porously-populated, inconsistent lists, with no guarantees
> that
> the right students got critical class/lab-related messages, etc). This
> invisible
> behind-the-scenes subscription method is the way to go for us. None of
> our
> Mailman subscribers even know they have their own list passwords, and we
> don't want them to! (I'd say about .01% are clever/curious enough to
> figure
> it out - I'm not implying that they are dopes, but rather they are just
> overwhelmed by the hundreds of new things they have to learn coming to a
> university - we don't want to pile on with even more stuff they need to
> know).
>
> I think that by running the server ourselves (and using only addresses
> from our
> domains) warrants this admittedly fascist attitude. Perhaps the safest
> way to
> handle this (in future releases) is to make mass-subscribe=NO the
> default setting
> for new installs, but not removing the option altogether. Thanks.
>
>  - jim -
>
> PS I am pretty sure that this discussion only involves removing
> mass-subscribe
>    from the GUI (and not the command line) but many of our lists require
> mass-
>    subscribes on certain dates from the GUI as well (usually conducted
> by the
>    departmental secretaries).
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/zipfel%40greenacrestechnology.com
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>
>   


From drew.tenenholz at isid.org  Tue Jul 15 22:09:56 2008
From: drew.tenenholz at isid.org (Drew Tenenholz)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:09:56 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Upgrade questions - Best method suggestions
	requested
Message-ID: <p06240847c4a2aef08af3@[192.168.209.10]>

Folks --

I'm planning on upgrading my Mac XServe this weekend, and wanted to 
get a feel for the 'best' way to make sure the work goes smoothly. 
Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

The overall goal is to upgrade from G5 XServe 10.3.9 Server(!) with 
default Apple installation of Mailman 2.1.4(!) to Mac OS X 10.5 and a 
standardized install of Mailman 2.1.11.  This is less of an upgrade 
and more of a process whereby I take new hard drives, format them and 
then install/migrate the data/applications from the older drives.

I have a very old message directing me to some of the FAQ which, with 
the help of someone very familiar with UNIX, we can use to get away 
from the Apple version of the install.  However, I still have a 
couple of questions:

1) Are there any significant changes to the FAQ for Apple upgrade I 
should know about?

2) Should we upgrade Mailman to 2.1.11 FIRST, then do the OS X 
install or the other way around?  I can see arguments for both, but 
having never done any upgrade for mailman I'm not sure which to do 
first.

3) I'm running a single, very small announce-only list with about 125 
subscribers, but I'd like to preserve the archived messages (all in 
Cyrillic text).  I really DON'T want to preserve the existing queue 
of postings held for moderation, they are all SPAM.  Is it possible 
to drop a specific piece of Mailman like that during an upgrade?

4) So, I really need to put some kind of SPAM filter between Mailman 
and Postfix.  Does anyone know if the pre-installed SapmAssassin 
which comes with OS X (10.5) just 'magically' becomes part of the 
mix, or do I need to do something else to start filtering the 
incoming junk to mailman?

5) I hope to set up a boot drive plus a RAID0 for the data drives. 
Where does Mailman end up living?

Thanks again,
Drew Tenenholz

From lists at blazestudios.com  Tue Jul 15 22:43:30 2008
From: lists at blazestudios.com (Tom Ray [Lists])
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:43:30 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not sending email to list users / Archives
	giving 403
Message-ID: <487D0BF2.1000207@blazestudios.com>

I had a server crash and I needed to move two domains that are using 
mailman lists to a new server. I didn't think this was a big deal 
because they were moved from server that was taken out of production to 
the server that crashed without issue. Everything seems to be working 
just fine. They can manage their lists and add new ones but two things 
are happening now.

First, the archives are giving 403 errors when you try to view them. 
Apache logs a "client denied by server configuration:" error. Here are 
the current permissions:

drwxrws--x  26 root mailman 808 Jul  9 14:36 private
drwxrwsr-x   2 root mailman 288 Jul  9 14:36 public

All the subdirectories in private are set to "drwxrwsr-x" with the 
root:mailman user/group. All the html and txt files are set to 644. And 
in the .mbox dirs the .mbox file is set to 664.

I'm not sure why it's pulling a 403 error. Is there something I missed? 
I ran bin/check_perms -f everything once they were moved over and it 
fixed all the permissions and ownerships.

Second, none of the email is being sent to the list users. If a new user 
joins the list the welcome letter is sent. If a non-user tries to post 
to the list the moderators are emailed and the poster is emailed the 
"your post awaits approval" but the registered list users are not 
receiving emails.

This is what I see in the maillog: 2008-07-14 16:13:20 1KIUQB-00053s-5D 
=> test <test at listdomain.net> R=mailman_router T=mailman_transport

I'm using Exim 4.69 with Mailman 2.1.10

Exim Config:

Router:
mailman_router:
    driver = accept
    require_files = 
/mail/${domain}/mailman/lists/${lc::$local_part}/config.pck
    local_part_suffix_optional
    local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
                        -confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
                        -owner : -request : -admin
    transport = mailman_transport

Transport:
mailman_transport:
    driver = pipe
    command = /mail/${domain}/mailman/mail/mailman \
              '${if def:local_part_suffix \
                    {${sg{$local_part_suffix}{-(\\w+)(\\+.*)?}{\$1}}} \
                    {post}}' \
              $local_part
    current_directory = /mail/${domain}/mailman
    home_directory = /mail/${domain}/mailman
    user = MAILMAN_USER
    group = MAILMAN_GROUP


MAILMAN_USER and MAILMAN_GROUP are mailman.

Can anyone give me any insight on this please?

Thanks!

From cyndi at tikvah.com  Tue Jul 15 23:36:00 2008
From: cyndi at tikvah.com (Cyndi Norwitz)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:36:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] discard_these_nonmembers
Message-ID: <200807152136.m6FLa0uT011178@a.mail.sonic.net>

Aside #1: Feature Request
Can there be a link to the FAQ or other documentation on the Mailman
administration page used by listowners at their ISP?

Aside #2: Is there a place to see what updates have been made in various MM
versions?  I can't find it at the wiki.

Question:

I'm trying to edit discard_these_nonmembers.  Sometimes when I've done it
in the past I made a syntax error and got an error msg.  But now I'm
getting the error msg no matter what I do.  Even just trying to submit the
original text.  I am guessing something changed in this version of MM, but
I don't know.

I got this syntax from Mark here a while ago.  I use it to automatically
discard spam from certain domains:

Example: ^[^@]+@(.*\.)?heatherandhailey\.com$

When I get a new domain to discard, I cut and paste one of the other domain
lines and swap out the new domain and change .com to .org or whatever if
needed.

I'm trying to create this line:
^[^@]+@(.*\.)?hunt4loot\.com$

But then I get the error:
Error: Bad email address for option discard_these_nonmembers:
^[^@]+@(.*\.)?heatherandhailey\.com$ ^[^@]+@(.*\.)?myloveschool\.com$
[and so on, listing every line in my box, including plain email addresses
with no funny characters.]

When this has happened before, I remove the new line(s), resubmit and the
error disappears.  Then I carefully put my new info back, one line at a
time, until I find the error and fix it.

But this time, even resubmiting the old info results in an error msg.

I thought maybe it didn't like some old code I had in there that turned out
to be ineffective but harmless.  So I tried cutting it but it still gives
me the error msg.

The only changes I've made since the last time I got it to work have been
to use the auto-discard option on the moderation page.

I can post the entire code I have if anyone wants, but it's rather long and
I didn't want to flood the list.

My ISP recently upgraded from version 2.1.9 to version 2.1.11.

Thanks,
Cyndi


From forbesd at gmail.com  Wed Jul 16 00:38:24 2008
From: forbesd at gmail.com (Don Forbes)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:38:24 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
Message-ID: <dd9583ce0807151538x148eb23ndf1dea3cd0d6fa0d@mail.gmail.com>

> Cyndi Norwitz wrote:

> P.S. I still don't understand why they insist on an invite model.

> Because all it takes is one listowner that doesn't understand and does a
> mass subscribe of a number of people, some of those people complain and then
> the entire ISP gets blacklisted.  And some blacklists you simply cannot
> *EVER* get them to remove you.
>
> Personally, I would be happy to see the "mass subscribe" feature go away
> completely from the web interface of Mailman, or at least disabled by
> default.  But then I've been fighting spam since the time I was the Sr.
> Internet Mail Administrator at AOL in '95, and this is a subject that I feel
> very strongly about.
>
> --
> Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
> LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>


Brad does a good job here of explaining a key point that is often
overlooked, but must be a top priority when you're entrusted with the
administration of a list server(s) and the integrity reputation of the
IP addresses associated with it, all while looking after the greater
good of your company, institution, etc.

--
Don

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 16 01:17:26 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:17:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] discard_these_nonmembers
In-Reply-To: <200807152136.m6FLa0uT011178@a.mail.sonic.net>
References: <200807152136.m6FLa0uT011178@a.mail.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <487D3006.8040300@msapiro.net>

Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
> Aside #1: Feature Request
> Can there be a link to the FAQ or other documentation on the Mailman
> administration page used by listowners at their ISP?
> 
> Aside #2: Is there a place to see what updates have been made in various MM
> versions?  I can't find it at the wiki.


<http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/annotate/head:/NEWS>


> Question:
> 
> I'm trying to edit discard_these_nonmembers.  Sometimes when I've done it
> in the past I made a syntax error and got an error msg.  But now I'm
> getting the error msg no matter what I do.  Even just trying to submit the
> original text.  I am guessing something changed in this version of MM, but
> I don't know.
> 
> I got this syntax from Mark here a while ago.  I use it to automatically
> discard spam from certain domains:
> 
> Example: ^[^@]+@(.*\.)?heatherandhailey\.com$
> 
> When I get a new domain to discard, I cut and paste one of the other domain
> lines and swap out the new domain and change .com to .org or whatever if
> needed.
> 
> I'm trying to create this line:
> ^[^@]+@(.*\.)?hunt4loot\.com$
> 
> But then I get the error:
> Error: Bad email address for option discard_these_nonmembers:
> ^[^@]+@(.*\.)?heatherandhailey\.com$ ^[^@]+@(.*\.)?myloveschool\.com$
> [and so on, listing every line in my box, including plain email addresses
> with no funny characters.]
> 
> When this has happened before, I remove the new line(s), resubmit and the
> error disappears.  Then I carefully put my new info back, one line at a
> time, until I find the error and fix it.
> 
> But this time, even resubmiting the old info results in an error msg.
> 
> I thought maybe it didn't like some old code I had in there that turned out
> to be ineffective but harmless.  So I tried cutting it but it still gives
> me the error msg.
> 
> The only changes I've made since the last time I got it to work have been
> to use the auto-discard option on the moderation page.
> 
> I can post the entire code I have if anyone wants, but it's rather long and
> I didn't want to flood the list.
> 
> My ISP recently upgraded from version 2.1.9 to version 2.1.11.


Not too much has changed that would affect this. Each entry must look 
syntactically like a valid email address or be a valid regexp starting 
with ^ or be a listname preceded by @.  The @listname feature is new in 
2.1.10, but it should result in accepting more, not less (and the actual 
listname isn't validated at this point).

There was a change in email address validation in that an address with 
an unquoted local part containing ':', '\' or '"' is now considered 
invalid. E.g., previously, the (invalid) address doe:j at example.com would 
have been accepted, but now it must be "doe:j"@example.com. This was 
changed in 2.1.11 to fix the bug report at 
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1956393&group_id=103&atid=100103>.

So I suspect you must have an address already in 
discard_these_nonmembers that fails this new test.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 16 01:38:11 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:38:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not sending email to list users /
 Archives giving 403
In-Reply-To: <487D0BF2.1000207@blazestudios.com>
References: <487D0BF2.1000207@blazestudios.com>
Message-ID: <487D34E3.4060205@msapiro.net>

Tom Ray [Lists] wrote:
> I had a server crash and I needed to move two domains that are using 
> mailman lists to a new server. I didn't think this was a big deal 
> because they were moved from server that was taken out of production to 
> the server that crashed without issue. Everything seems to be working 
> just fine. They can manage their lists and add new ones but two things 
> are happening now.
> 
> First, the archives are giving 403 errors when you try to view them. 
> Apache logs a "client denied by server configuration:" error. Here are 
> the current permissions:
> 
> drwxrws--x  26 root mailman 808 Jul  9 14:36 private
> drwxrwsr-x   2 root mailman 288 Jul  9 14:36 public
> 
> All the subdirectories in private are set to "drwxrwsr-x" with the 
> root:mailman user/group. All the html and txt files are set to 644. And 
> in the .mbox dirs the .mbox file is set to 664.
> 
> I'm not sure why it's pulling a 403 error. Is there something I missed? 
> I ran bin/check_perms -f everything once they were moved over and it 
> fixed all the permissions and ownerships.


Do you have a directory block in your apache config for the 
archives/public directory something like

<Directory "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public">
     Options +FollowSymLinks
     Order allow,deny
     Allow from all
</Directory>

If that isn't it, are you running SELinux or some other security policy 
manager> What's in Apache's error_log?


> Second, none of the email is being sent to the list users.


Do posts get archived?


> If a new user 
> joins the list the welcome letter is sent. If a non-user tries to post 
> to the list the moderators are emailed and the poster is emailed the 
> "your post awaits approval" but the registered list users are not 
> receiving emails.
> 
> This is what I see in the maillog: 2008-07-14 16:13:20 1KIUQB-00053s-5D 
> => test <test at listdomain.net> R=mailman_router T=mailman_transport
> 
> I'm using Exim 4.69 with Mailman 2.1.10
> 
> Exim Config:
> 
> Router:
> mailman_router:
>    driver = accept
>    require_files = 
> /mail/${domain}/mailman/lists/${lc::$local_part}/config.pck
>    local_part_suffix_optional
>    local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
>                        -confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
>                        -owner : -request : -admin
>    transport = mailman_transport
> 
> Transport:
> mailman_transport:
>    driver = pipe
>    command = /mail/${domain}/mailman/mail/mailman \
>              '${if def:local_part_suffix \
>                    {${sg{$local_part_suffix}{-(\\w+)(\\+.*)?}{\$1}}} \
>                    {post}}' \
>              $local_part
>    current_directory = /mail/${domain}/mailman
>    home_directory = /mail/${domain}/mailman
>    user = MAILMAN_USER
>    group = MAILMAN_GROUP
> 
> 
> MAILMAN_USER and MAILMAN_GROUP are mailman.
> 
> Can anyone give me any insight on this please?


All of the exim stuff above has to do with mail TO Mailman. If posts are 
getting queued in Mailman's 'in' queue or getting beyond that to the 
list archives, all that is working.

See <http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9>.
-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com  Wed Jul 16 02:00:34 2008
From: brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:00:34 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't create list
In-Reply-To: <487C448F.4000703@msapiro.net>
References: <20080714170949.GA10335@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
	<PC1870200807141904460250445fed28@Notebook>
	<20080715022346.GC15054@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
	<487C448F.4000703@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20080716000034.GA2277@mrvideo.vidiot.com>

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:32:47PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> When you change DEFAULT_URL_HOST and/or DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST in mm_cfg.py, 
> you want to clear the VIRTUAL_HOSTS dictionary and start over. Granted, 
> Defaults.py only mentions putting the add_virtualhost in mm_cfg.py, and it 
> isn't strictly necessary to remove the original entry from Defaults.py, but 
> I think it's good to do. See <http://wiki.list.org/x/gIA9>.

Thanks.

I was able to create the mail list.  Did some simple admin stuff.  But, since
I left my printed copy of the manual at home, I couldn't figure out how to
subscribe myself.

I'll try that tomorrow.

MB
-- 
e-mail: vidiot at vidiot.com                                /~\ The ASCII
[I've been to Earth.  I know where it is.         ]      \ / Ribbon Campaign
[And I'm gonna take us there.    Starbuck  3/25/07]       X  Against
Visit - URL: http://vidiot.com/                          / \ HTML Email

From cyndi at tikvah.com  Wed Jul 16 02:50:44 2008
From: cyndi at tikvah.com (Cyndi Norwitz)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:50:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] discard_these_nonmembers
In-Reply-To: <487D3006.8040300@msapiro.net> (message from Mark Sapiro on Tue, 
	15 Jul 2008 16:17:26 -0700)
References: <200807152136.m6FLa0uT011178@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<487D3006.8040300@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <200807160050.m6G0oiZV017159@b.mail.sonic.net>

   Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:17:26 -0700
   From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>

   > My ISP recently upgraded from version 2.1.9 to version 2.1.11.


   There was a change in email address validation in that an address with
   an unquoted local part containing ':', '\' or '"' is now considered
   invalid. E.g., previously, the (invalid) address doe:j at example.com would
   have been accepted, but now it must be "doe:j"@example.com.

It was an address with a "|" in the username.  It all works now.

Thanks!
Cyndi


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 16 03:02:33 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:02:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] password choice
In-Reply-To: <487C949E.1070201@bates.edu>
References: <487C949E.1070201@bates.edu>
Message-ID: <487D48A9.5060308@msapiro.net>

Karen R McArthur wrote:
> We do not want users using their network password as their mailman 
> password.  Is there some way to modify the Mailman code so that users 
> are NOT given the option to choose their own password?


It's only code. It can be modified :)

Or perhaps you are asking what would need to be modified.

You could do most of it by editing the subscribe form on the listinfo 
template to remove the password specification section and the user 
specific options template to remove the password change section.

These edits can be done for a specific list via the list admin "Edit the 
public HTML pages and text files" link or more generally via the methods 
at <http://wiki.list.org/x/jYA9>.

That would take care of most of it, but to be more complete, you would 
need to modify Mailman/Commands/cmd_subscribe to prevent setting a 
password with an email subscribe command.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From lists at blazestudios.com  Wed Jul 16 05:02:33 2008
From: lists at blazestudios.com (Tom Ray [Lists])
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:02:33 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not sending email to list users /
 Archives giving 403
In-Reply-To: <487D34E3.4060205@msapiro.net>
References: <487D0BF2.1000207@blazestudios.com> <487D34E3.4060205@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <487D64C9.6020308@blazestudios.com>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
> Do you have a directory block in your apache config for the 
> archives/public directory something like
>
> <Directory "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public">
>     Options +FollowSymLinks
>     Order allow,deny
>     Allow from all
> </Directory>
> $
> If that isn't it, are you running SELinux or some other security 
> policy manager> What's in Apache's error_log?
OK this worked I can now get to the archives. Thanks.
>
>
>> Second, none of the email is being sent to the list users.
>
>
> Do posts get archived?
No. Not one of the test emails I've sent to the test list are archived. 
So it's dieing some where between being received and sent to the in queue.
>
>
> All of the exim stuff above has to do with mail TO Mailman. If posts 
> are getting queued in Mailman's 'in' queue or getting beyond that to 
> the list archives, all that is working.
>
> See <http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9>.


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 16 07:22:43 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:22:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not sending email to list users /
 Archives giving 403
In-Reply-To: <487D64C9.6020308@blazestudios.com>
References: <487D0BF2.1000207@blazestudios.com> <487D34E3.4060205@msapiro.net>
	<487D64C9.6020308@blazestudios.com>
Message-ID: <487D85A3.6000506@msapiro.net>

Tom Ray [Lists] wrote:
> Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>
>> Do posts get archived?
> No. Not one of the test emails I've sent to the test list are archived. 
> So it's dieing some where between being received and sent to the in queue.


Actually, the exim log entry you posted says the mail was delivered via 
the mailman-transport which says it was piped to

   /mail/listdomain.net/mailman/mail/mailman post test

which, assuming that wrapper and the 'post' script are not totally 
broken to the point that they terminate normally without doing anything, 
says that the mail made it to qfiles/in.


>> See <http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9>.


Check the various things in the above FAQ article.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Jul 16 07:52:00 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:52:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <366860B666E21241A76B26156DC56E0BA00B7C@EXCHCL2.uleth.ca>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net><7ff145960807091954t7ce890be
	jbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com><200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic
	.net><20080710182911.BEDF35F5ED@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com><48765BBE.10
	50201@shub-internet.org><Pine.OSX.4.58.0807101401220.76202@albion.stonejon
	gleux.com>	<200807102306.m6AN6fm1030861@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<366860B666E21241A76B26156DC56E0BA00B7C@EXCHCL2.uleth.ca>
Message-ID: <p06240801c4a33b092d8f@[192.168.253.100]>

On 7/15/08, Savoy, Jim wrote:

>                                                   We have class lists,
>  lab lists, club lists, team lists, student lists, employee lists,
>  security lists (some of which contain every soul on our campus - rarely
>  ever used (never used yet, in fact, knock wood) for Virginia Tech-type
>  campus-wide emergencies, etc).

Mailing lists are useful for a wide variety of things, but VT-type 
emergencies are not among them.

IIRC, just a day or two after that event, the CIO of VT came to this 
very list to ask for assistance in setting up Mailman for future 
cases like this, to send out emergency notices to everyone on campus. 
My understanding is that he went away very disheartened when he was 
informed of:

	1.  The inherently unreliable nature of e-mail and how long it
		can take to get delivered under "normal" circumstances

	2.  The more time-sensitive the subject, the less likely you
		are to meet your desired goals of reachability in a
		given amount of time

	3.  The fact that most carriers are literally dropping billions
		and billions of SMS messages per day that are coming
		across the e-mail-to-SMS gateways

There are commercial companies who specialize in these kinds of 
emergency broadcast notification systems.  For this function, you 
want to go with one of these companies.  Mailing lists are *NOT* a 
good solution here.

>    But in all these years, we've had very few complaints and everything
>  has run very smoothly. We usually comply quickly if someone wants out,
>  but we would never in a million years want people to have to opt-in!

When you have some control over the potential population (like a 
University does over their faculty, staff, and students, or how a 
company would have control over their employees), then an opt-out 
solution of the sort you describe is quite reasonable.

Again, we get back to this issue where not everyone uses it that way, 
and the feature can be sorely abused.  However, considering 
circumstances such as you have described, the feature is provided in 
the code and is not currently disabled by default.

And, despite my own personal views, I realize the situation that 
other sites may be in, so I don't agitate too loudly to try to change 
that default.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Jul 16 07:57:22 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:57:22 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Upgrade questions - Best method suggestions
 requested
In-Reply-To: <p06240847c4a2aef08af3@[192.168.209.10]>
References: <p06240847c4a2aef08af3@[192.168.209.10]>
Message-ID: <p06240802c4a33d39b0d3@[192.168.253.100]>

On 7/15/08, Drew Tenenholz wrote:

>  1) Are there any significant changes to the FAQ for Apple upgrade I
>  should know about?

The Apple-related portion of the documentation has been contributed 
by other members of the community, so if you haven't seen any updates 
there, it is *NOT* safe to assume that the instructions are still 
valid.  You could always try them and report back your experiences, 
and maybe hope that someone will be able to update the documentation 
to reflect that.

>  2) Should we upgrade Mailman to 2.1.11 FIRST, then do the OS X install or
>  the other way around?  I can see arguments for both, but having never done
>  any upgrade for mailman I'm not sure which to do first.

Do the OS upgrade first, then Mailman.

>  3) I'm running a single, very small announce-only list with about 125
>  subscribers, but I'd like to preserve the archived messages (all in
>  Cyrillic text).  I really DON'T want to preserve the existing queue of
>  postings held for moderation, they are all SPAM.  Is it possible to drop
>  a specific piece of Mailman like that during an upgrade?

Sure.  Just don't copy those messages over when you copy over everything else.

>  4) So, I really need to put some kind of SPAM filter between Mailman
>  and Postfix.  Does anyone know if the pre-installed SapmAssassin which
>  comes with OS X (10.5) just 'magically' becomes part of the mix, or do
>  I need to do something else to start filtering the incoming junk to
>  mailman?

I haven't seen their SpamAssassin configuration.  I do know that the 
SpamAssassin integration instructions we have work at another site I 
help administer (ntp.org).

>  5) I hope to set up a boot drive plus a RAID0 for the data drives. Where
>  does Mailman end up living?

Our standard installation for everything related to Mailman usually 
gets put in /usr/local/Mailman/, but I don't know if the installation 
process has been updated to put it wherever Apple specifies to put 
things for their version of Mailman.  You'd want to check that to 
make sure.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From MWadham at alentus.com  Wed Jul 16 11:16:53 2008
From: MWadham at alentus.com (Mark Wadham)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 03:16:53 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman stopped working
Message-ID: <060EDFC2221B014B9504AC06B747F58A497627491F@ex01.alentus.lan>

Hi,

I've got a mailman installation that has apparently stopped working.  If I post to a list, the post appears in the moderation queue, I then approve it and in the 'vette' log it shows the post being accepted, but it never gets delivered to any recipients and the MTA apparently never got the mail back from mailman.

How can I debug this?

Thanks,
--
Mark Wadham
System Administrator | Alentus UK Limited
Tel: +44 (0)20 8315 5800 | http://www.alentus.co.uk/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Alentus UK Limited, formerly Areti Internet Ltd; See the press
  release at: http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20080603005238/en
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From lstone19 at stonejongleux.com  Wed Jul 16 13:50:25 2008
From: lstone19 at stonejongleux.com (Larry Stone)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 06:50:25 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Upgrade questions - Best method suggestions
 requested
In-Reply-To: <p06240802c4a33d39b0d3@[192.168.253.100]>
Message-ID: <C4A34AB1.5D0E5%lstone19@stonejongleux.com>

On 7/16/08 12:57 AM, Brad Knowles at brad at shub-internet.org wrote:

> On 7/15/08, Drew Tenenholz wrote:
> 
>>  1) Are there any significant changes to the FAQ for Apple upgrade I
>>  should know about?
> 
> The Apple-related portion of the documentation has been contributed
> by other members of the community, so if you haven't seen any updates
> there, it is *NOT* safe to assume that the instructions are still
> valid.  You could always try them and report back your experiences,
> and maybe hope that someone will be able to update the documentation
> to reflect that.

As the author of the document referenced in the FAQ on installing Mailman on
client Mac OS X, there are some significant changes for Leopard. I posted an
update on 10/29/07 titled "Mac OS X Leopard upgrade experience" which should
be findable in the archives.

I do have one ongoing problem which is the Mailman startup, when started as
part of system boot, fails about 2/3 of the time with the "stray process"
message mentioned in the note referenced above. My "solution" to it is a
cron job that runs hourly to alert me to missing qrunners (which obviously
is useful for other mailman problems as well) and manually starting it when
necessary. 

-- 
Larry Stone
lstone19 at stonejongleux.com
http://www.stonejongleux.com/



From geon at post.cz  Wed Jul 16 14:27:11 2008
From: geon at post.cz (Pavel Kosina)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:27:11 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] www interface
Message-ID: <487DE91F.7030404@post.cz>

I was really looking for this theme but no success.

Does there exists some extension/add-on for mailman that would enabled 
the www discussion interface? So that its possible to read/write 
contributions both with emails and www interface? My admin keeps telling 
me that nothing is like that and I cant believe him.

Thank you

-- 
geon
Pavel Kosina


From lists at blazestudios.com  Wed Jul 16 15:28:25 2008
From: lists at blazestudios.com (Tom Ray [Lists])
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:28:25 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not sending email to list users /
 Archives giving 403
In-Reply-To: <487D85A3.6000506@msapiro.net>
References: <487D0BF2.1000207@blazestudios.com> <487D34E3.4060205@msapiro.net>
	<487D64C9.6020308@blazestudios.com> <487D85A3.6000506@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <487DF779.8060106@blazestudios.com>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Tom Ray [Lists] wrote:
>> Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>>
>>> Do posts get archived?
>> No. Not one of the test emails I've sent to the test list are 
>> archived. So it's dieing some where between being received and sent 
>> to the in queue.
>
>
> Actually, the exim log entry you posted says the mail was delivered 
> via the mailman-transport which says it was piped to
>
>   /mail/listdomain.net/mailman/mail/mailman post test
>
> which, assuming that wrapper and the 'post' script are not totally 
> broken to the point that they terminate normally without doing 
> anything, says that the mail made it to qfiles/in.
>
>
>>> See <http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9>.
>
>

> Check the various things in the above FAQ article.
>
I managed to get this working. It turned out to be what I thought it 
was, Permissions issues. I had to go in and change the permissions back 
bin/check_perms -f didn't do it.


Thanks for the assistance.


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Wed Jul 16 17:06:17 2008
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:06:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] www interface
In-Reply-To: <487DE91F.7030404@post.cz>
References: <487DE91F.7030404@post.cz>
Message-ID: <200807161505.m6GF5TOS001580@newbox.eroded.org>

Pavel Kosina wrote:
>I was really looking for this theme but no success.
>
>Does there exists some extension/add-on for mailman that would 
>enabled the www discussion interface? So that its possible to 
>read/write contributions both with emails and www interface? My 
>admin keeps telling me that nothing is like that and I cant believe him.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

No such thing exists. Mailman is an e-mail list manager, not a 
web-mail solution like Yahoo or Google groups.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Wed Jul 16 17:09:59 2008
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:09:59 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not sending email to list users /
 Archives giving 403
In-Reply-To: <487DF779.8060106@blazestudios.com>
References: <487D0BF2.1000207@blazestudios.com> <487D34E3.4060205@msapiro.net>
	<487D64C9.6020308@blazestudios.com> <487D85A3.6000506@msapiro.net>
	<487DF779.8060106@blazestudios.com>
Message-ID: <200807161509.m6GF9A27001632@newbox.eroded.org>

Tom Ray [Lists] sent the message below at 06:28 7/16/2008:
>Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>Tom Ray [Lists] wrote:
>>>Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Do posts get archived?
>>>No. Not one of the test emails I've sent to the test list are 
>>>archived. So it's dieing some where between being received and 
>>>sent to the in queue.
>>
>>
>>Actually, the exim log entry you posted says the mail was delivered 
>>via the mailman-transport which says it was piped to
>>
>>   /mail/listdomain.net/mailman/mail/mailman post test
>>
>>which, assuming that wrapper and the 'post' script are not totally 
>>broken to the point that they terminate normally without doing 
>>anything, says that the mail made it to qfiles/in.
>>
>>
>>>>See <http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9>.
>>
>
>>Check the various things in the above FAQ article.
>I managed to get this working. It turned out to be what I thought it 
>was, Permissions issues. I had to go in and change the permissions 
>back bin/check_perms -f didn't do it.
>
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

check_perms should work if you run it as root and you do several 
passes until it reports no errors.

If it didn't work, could you let us know what files or directories it 
failed to fix? That way one of the developers could have a look at 
what went wrong and see if it is something that could be fixed.

If you did not run it as root, the user you did run as may not have 
permission to change the ownership and file permissions to what they 
need to be.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 16 17:11:49 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:11:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman stopped working
In-Reply-To: <060EDFC2221B014B9504AC06B747F58A497627491F@ex01.alentus.lan>
References: <060EDFC2221B014B9504AC06B747F58A497627491F@ex01.alentus.lan>
Message-ID: <487E0FB5.9000602@msapiro.net>

Mark Wadham wrote:
> 
> I've got a mailman installation that has apparently stopped working.
> If I post to a list, the post appears in the moderation queue, I then
> approve it and in the 'vette' log it shows the post being accepted,
> but it never gets delivered to any recipients and the MTA apparently
> never got the mail back from mailman.
> 
> How can I debug this?


Seems like OutgoingRunner may not be running. See 
<http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 16 17:14:10 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:14:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not sending email to list users /
 Archives giving 403
In-Reply-To: <487DF779.8060106@blazestudios.com>
References: <487D0BF2.1000207@blazestudios.com> <487D34E3.4060205@msapiro.net>
	<487D64C9.6020308@blazestudios.com> <487D85A3.6000506@msapiro.net>
	<487DF779.8060106@blazestudios.com>
Message-ID: <487E1042.2050903@msapiro.net>

Tom Ray [Lists] wrote:

> I managed to get this working. It turned out to be what I thought it 
> was, Permissions issues. I had to go in and change the permissions back 
> bin/check_perms -f didn't do it.


If you would tell us what permissions were required that check_perms
didn't find/fix, we might be able to fix check_perms.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 16 17:21:09 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:21:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] www interface
In-Reply-To: <200807161505.m6GF5TOS001580@newbox.eroded.org>
References: <487DE91F.7030404@post.cz>
	<200807161505.m6GF5TOS001580@newbox.eroded.org>
Message-ID: <487E11E5.7090308@msapiro.net>

Dragon wrote:
> Pavel Kosina wrote:
>> I was really looking for this theme but no success.
>>
>> Does there exists some extension/add-on for mailman that would enabled 
>> the www discussion interface? So that its possible to read/write 
>> contributions both with emails and www interface? My admin keeps 
>> telling me that nothing is like that and I cant believe him.
> ---------------- End original message. ---------------------
> 
> No such thing exists. Mailman is an e-mail list manager, not a web-mail 
> solution like Yahoo or Google groups.


Actually, it is quite practical to read list mail via the web archive, 
and, at least if ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS is Yes, the author's 
address is a good mailto: link for posting back to the list, but this 
still requires a mail client because as Dragon says, there is no web 
posting interface.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Wed Jul 16 17:25:05 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:25:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] www interface
In-Reply-To: <200807161505.m6GF5TOS001580@newbox.eroded.org>
References: <487DE91F.7030404@post.cz>
	<200807161505.m6GF5TOS001580@newbox.eroded.org>
Message-ID: <20080716152555.5C27F131B0A@friskymail-a2.g.dreamhost.com>


Dragon wrote at 08:06 AM 7/16/2008:
 
>>Does there exists some extension/add-on for mailman that would enabled the www discussion interface? So that its possible to read/write contributions both with emails and www interface? My admin keeps telling me that nothing is like that and I cant believe him.
>
>No such thing exists. Mailman is an e-mail list manager, not a web-mail solution like Yahoo or Google groups.

Hi Dragon. Other mail list solutions have the ability to post and reply to messages online. The prime example may be the Topica discussion lists. They do not offer web mail, but they do offer online participation.

I think this would be a great feature to add, so folks could check and post online, without using their ISP's web mail. I run several Topica lists, and we have many list members that choose "No Mail" and regularly go to the archives to view others' posts, respond, or post. For whatever reason, they prefer to not receive emails from the list. 

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Wed Jul 16 17:37:46 2008
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:37:46 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] www interface
In-Reply-To: <20080716152555.5C27F131B0A@friskymail-a2.g.dreamhost.com>
References: <487DE91F.7030404@post.cz>
	<200807161505.m6GF5TOS001580@newbox.eroded.org>
	<20080716152555.5C27F131B0A@friskymail-a2.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <200807161537.m6GFaw6n002183@newbox.eroded.org>

Michael Welch wrote:

>Dragon wrote at 08:06 AM 7/16/2008:
>
> >>Does there exists some extension/add-on for mailman that would 
> enabled the www discussion interface? So that its possible to 
> read/write contributions both with emails and www interface? My 
> admin keeps telling me that nothing is like that and I cant believe him.
> >
> >No such thing exists. Mailman is an e-mail list manager, not a 
> web-mail solution like Yahoo or Google groups.
>
>Hi Dragon. Other mail list solutions have the ability to post and 
>reply to messages online. The prime example may be the Topica 
>discussion lists. They do not offer web mail, but they do offer 
>online participation.

I am well aware of that, I just used Yahoo and Google as two 
well-known examples. The point I am making is that no such 
functionality exists in the current product, it is a mailing list 
manager program, and will be until somebody dedicates the time and 
work to implement other features.

>I think this would be a great feature to add, so folks could check 
>and post online, without using their ISP's web mail. I run several 
>Topica lists, and we have many list members that choose "No Mail" 
>and regularly go to the archives to view others' posts, respond, or 
>post. For whatever reason, they prefer to not receive emails from the list.

Well, the nature of a project such as this is it is developed by 
volunteers in their spare time and the developers work on the pieces 
of the puzzle they are interested in supporting.

This would take a major piece of code to add such a feature and a lot 
more to integrate it into the rest of the project. Unless somebody 
steps up to do it, it's going to remain something that would be "nice to have".

Personally, I have neither the interest nor the time to do it.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From MWadham at alentus.com  Wed Jul 16 17:38:16 2008
From: MWadham at alentus.com (Mark Wadham)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:38:16 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman stopped working
In-Reply-To: <487E0FB5.9000602@msapiro.net>
References: <060EDFC2221B014B9504AC06B747F58A497627491F@ex01.alentus.lan>,
	<487E0FB5.9000602@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <060EDFC2221B014B9504AC06B747F58A4976274923@ex01.alentus.lan>

It is running;

# ps aux |grep -i outgoing
list      2605  0.0  0.0  11520     8 ?        S    May16  16:21 /usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s

The url you gave is currently 503..

Thanks,
--
Mark Wadham
System Administrator | Alentus UK Limited
Tel: +44 (0)20 8315 5800 | http://www.alentus.co.uk/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Alentus UK Limited, formerly Areti Internet Ltd; See the press
  release at: http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20080603005238/en
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________
From: Mark Sapiro [mark at msapiro.net]
Sent: 16 July 2008 16:11
To: Mark Wadham
Cc: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman stopped working

Mark Wadham wrote:
>
> I've got a mailman installation that has apparently stopped working.
> If I post to a list, the post appears in the moderation queue, I then
> approve it and in the 'vette' log it shows the post being accepted,
> but it never gets delivered to any recipients and the MTA apparently
> never got the mail back from mailman.
>
> How can I debug this?


Seems like OutgoingRunner may not be running. See
<http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9>.

--
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu  Wed Jul 16 17:38:45 2008
From: hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu (hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:38:45 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] newlist auto-generate password
Message-ID: <18219BE24B75B69AC8B788A1@OHIO-87C67B454B.cns.ohiou.edu>

There doesn't seem to be an option to have a system generated password when 
running bin/newlist from the command line. Is this correct? If so, I would 
appreciate this be added as an enhancement request.

The ability to create a list from the command line is good since it creates 
the aliases lines for me.

Don Hone
<http://edirectory.ohio.edu/?$search?uid=hone>
Ohio University

From timm.stamer at uni-oldenburg.de  Wed Jul 16 17:47:31 2008
From: timm.stamer at uni-oldenburg.de (Timm Stamer)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:47:31 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] newlist auto-generate password
In-Reply-To: <18219BE24B75B69AC8B788A1@OHIO-87C67B454B.cns.ohiou.edu>
References: <18219BE24B75B69AC8B788A1@OHIO-87C67B454B.cns.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <487E1813.7090108@uni-oldenburg.de>

Hi Don,

I use

newlist --language=$lang $listname $email `pwgen -sB 15 1`

in my scripts to generate passwords. Search for pwgen.


Timm Stamer

hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu schrieb:
> There doesn't seem to be an option to have a system generated password 
> when running bin/newlist from the command line. Is this correct? If so, 
> I would appreciate this be added as an enhancement request.
> 
> The ability to create a list from the command line is good since it 
> creates the aliases lines for me.
> 
> Don Hone
> <http://edirectory.ohio.edu/?$search?uid=hone>
> Ohio University
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/timm.stamer%40uni-oldenburg.de 
> 
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9

From savoy at uleth.ca  Wed Jul 16 18:07:39 2008
From: savoy at uleth.ca (Savoy, Jim)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:07:39 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Feature Request: Selective Mass Subscription
In-Reply-To: <p06240801c4a33b092d8f@[192.168.253.100]>
References: <200807100248.m6A2mIU9021579@a.mail.sonic.net><7ff145960807091954t7ce890be
	jbc2e04851510adbb@mail.gmail.com><200807100309.m6A39uvR014259@b.mail.sonic
	.net><20080710182911.BEDF35F5ED@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com><48765BBE.10
	50201@shub-internet.org><Pine.OSX.4.58.0807101401220.76202@albion.stonejon
	gleux.com>	<200807102306.m6AN6fm1030861@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<366860B666E21241A76B26156DC56E0BA00B7C@EXCHCL2.uleth.ca>
	<p06240801c4a33b092d8f@[192.168.253.100]>
Message-ID: <366860B666E21241A76B26156DC56E0BA00BE4@EXCHCL2.uleth.ca>

 
Brad Knowles wrote:

> Mailing lists are useful for a wide variety of things, but 
> VT-type emergencies are not among them.

Well we definitely know that it isn't the *only* solution (there are
speakers and alarms and sirens and lights and cameras everywhere on
campus). But it is just one more thing we can add to the basket of
helpful security goodies.

> IIRC, just a day or two after that event, the CIO of VT came 
> to this very list to ask for assistance in setting up Mailman 
> for future cases like this, to send out emergency notices to 
> everyone on campus. 

I must have missed that discussion.

> My understanding is that he went away very disheartened...

I think his expectations were unreasonably high. E-Mail has its
caveats, just like everything else. We had lots of meetings here
after the VT (and Dawson College (Montreal)) attacks. I think everyone
in security understood that none of their solutions were 100%
guaranteed,
but they also agreed that a saturation warning (by every means possible)
was better than nothing.

 - jim -


From terri at zone12.com  Wed Jul 16 18:29:05 2008
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:29:05 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] www interface
In-Reply-To: <20080716152555.5C27F131B0A@friskymail-a2.g.dreamhost.com>
References: <487DE91F.7030404@post.cz>
	<200807161505.m6GF5TOS001580@newbox.eroded.org>
	<20080716152555.5C27F131B0A@friskymail-a2.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <615DF0FB-2B7C-4BF9-944C-2656CCA969EF@zone12.com>

On 16-Jul-08, at 11:25 AM, Michael Welch wrote:
> Dragon wrote at 08:06 AM 7/16/2008:
>>> Does there exists some extension/add-on for mailman that would  
>>> enabled the www discussion interface? So that its possible to  
>>> read/write contributions both with emails and www interface? My  
>>> admin keeps telling me that nothing is like that and I cant  
>>> believe him.
>> No such thing exists. Mailman is an e-mail list manager, not a web- 
>> mail solution like Yahoo or Google groups.
> I think this would be a great feature to add, so folks could check  
> and post online, without using their ISP's web mail. I run several  
> Topica lists, and we have many list members that choose "No Mail"  
> and regularly go to the archives to view others' posts, respond, or  
> post. For whatever reason, they prefer to not receive emails from  
> the list.

Actually, this is on my personal mailman to-do (and has been for  
months) but I've got a couple of other things that I want to get done  
first so it might take a while.

On the bright side, I *did* finish what I wanted to do with the FAQ,  
mostly reorganized what I wanted from the documentation, and the  
website is nearly ready to go, so it's getting closer to the top of  
the list again. :)

  Terri


From b19141 at anl.gov  Wed Jul 16 18:07:34 2008
From: b19141 at anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:07:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] newlist auto-generate password
In-Reply-To: Mail from 'hone+mailman@oak.cats.ohiou.edu'
	dated: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:38:45 -0400
Message-ID: <20080716160734.76E5917554@britaine.cis.anl.gov>

Don Hone wrote:

>There doesn't seem to be an option to have a system generated password
>when running bin/newlist from the command line. Is this correct? If so,
>I would appreciate this be added as an enhancement request.
>
>The ability to create a list from the command line is good since it creates 
>the aliases lines for me.

I do not see why you would want the system to generate a list admin
password when you create the list.  The bin/newlist script wants
you to generate a password.  If Mailman were to generate a random
password, how would it tell you what it was?  You need that password
to do any list administration via the web.  I am not sure that I
would want a random password for a list admin, as it would be hard
to remember.  When I, as Mailman administrator, create a new list
for someone, either the requestor gives me the password, or I choose
a password and let the requestor change it.  I would never be able
to remember a really random password, unless I used it multiple
times each day to do list maintenance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994


From melanie.bureau at capacoa.ca  Wed Jul 16 18:43:52 2008
From: melanie.bureau at capacoa.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?M=E9lanie_Bureau?=)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:43:52 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] New List
Message-ID: <00ab01c8e763$21b83cc0$6528b640$@bureau@capacoa.ca>

 

 

Hi ,

 

We would like to create a new list serve. How can we do this?

 

Thank you!

 

M?lanie

 

 

M?lanie Bureau

____________________________________
Operations manager/ directrice des op?rations
CAPACOA 
(Canadian Arts Presenting Association/l?Association canadienne des
organismes artistiques)
200?17 York Street
Ottawa, ON  K1N 9J6
tel/ t?l: 613.562.3515
fax/t?l?c: 613.562.4005
email/courriel:  <mailto:melanie.bureau at capacoa.ca> melanie.bureau
<mailto:melanie.bureau at capacoa.ca> @capacoa.ca
Web:  <http://www.capacoa.ca> http://www.capacoa.ca



 

 

 


From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Jul 16 18:49:16 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:49:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] newlist auto-generate password
In-Reply-To: <20080716160734.76E5917554@britaine.cis.anl.gov>
References: <20080716160734.76E5917554@britaine.cis.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <B9461BC6-5BFE-461B-9FD9-7B24F3828595@shub-internet.org>

When you create a list from the WebUI, you have the option of having  
Mailman generate the password itself, in which case it will get  
included in the e-mail message that is sent to the listowner.

The CLI interface is not going to auto-generate that e-mail message,  
so by default it is not going to auto-generate that password either.

-- 
Brad Knowles

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 16, 2008, at 9:07 AM, b19141 at anl.gov (Barry Finkel) wrote:

> Don Hone wrote:
>
>> There doesn't seem to be an option to have a system generated  
>> password
>> when running bin/newlist from the command line. Is this correct? If  
>> so,
>> I would appreciate this be added as an enhancement request.
>>
>> The ability to create a list from the command line is good since it  
>> creates
>> the aliases lines for me.
>
> I do not see why you would want the system to generate a list admin
> password when you create the list.  The bin/newlist script wants
> you to generate a password.  If Mailman were to generate a random
> password, how would it tell you what it was?  You need that password
> to do any list administration via the web.  I am not sure that I
> would want a random password for a list admin, as it would be hard
> to remember.  When I, as Mailman administrator, create a new list
> for someone, either the requestor gives me the password, or I choose
> a password and let the requestor change it.  I would never be able
> to remember a really random password, unless I used it multiple
> times each day to do list maintenance.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Barry S. Finkel
> Computing and Information Systems Division
> Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
> 9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
> Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
> Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/brad%40shub-internet.org
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9

From bvo at atz.nl  Wed Jul 16 18:00:33 2008
From: bvo at atz.nl (B. van Ouwerkerk)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:00:33 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] www interface
In-Reply-To: <487DE91F.7030404@post.cz>
References: <487DE91F.7030404@post.cz>
Message-ID: <487E1B21.9090008@atz.nl>

Pavel Kosina schreef:
> I was really looking for this theme but no success.
>
> Does there exists some extension/add-on for mailman that would enabled 
> the www discussion interface? So that its possible to read/write 
> contributions both with emails and www interface? My admin keeps 
> telling me that nothing is like that and I cant believe him.
>
> Thank you
>
Something like http://fudforum.org/forum/ you mean? It's not a mailman 
extension but it seems it will do most if not all of what you want.





B.

From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Wed Jul 16 18:57:54 2008
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:57:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] New List
In-Reply-To: <00ab01c8e763$21b83cc0$6528b640$@bureau@capacoa.ca>
References: <00ab01c8e763$21b83cc0$6528b640$@bureau@capacoa.ca>
Message-ID: <200807161657.m6GGv5jB003436@newbox.eroded.org>

M?lanie Bureau wrote:

>Hi ,
>
>We would like to create a new list serve. How can we do this?
>
>Thank you!
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

You will need to install mailman.

Start here:
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-install/index.html

You can get the latest version here:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=103

If you have any questions or concerns, please 
check the FAQ to see if your question might be 
answered there before posting to the list.

Mailman FAQ:
http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3


Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu  Wed Jul 16 19:25:18 2008
From: hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu (hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:25:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] newlist auto-generate password
In-Reply-To: <B9461BC6-5BFE-461B-9FD9-7B24F3828595@shub-internet.org>
References: <20080716160734.76E5917554@britaine.cis.anl.gov>
	<B9461BC6-5BFE-461B-9FD9-7B24F3828595@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <07154893666323BC9C81F784@OHIO-87C67B454B.cns.ohiou.edu>

--On Wednesday, July 16, 2008 9:49 AM -0700 Brad Knowles 
<brad at shub-internet.org> wrote:

> When you create a list from the WebUI, you have the option of having
> Mailman generate the password itself, in which case it will get  included
> in the e-mail message that is sent to the listowner.

Yes, that is a really nice feature.

>
> The CLI interface is not going to auto-generate that e-mail message,  so
> by default it is not going to auto-generate that password either.

When I add a new list via the CLI, I must enter a password and it is sent 
in the email to the list admin:

	The mailing list `cgilist' has just been created for you.
	The following is some basic information about your
	mailing list.

	Your mailing list password is:

	     XXXXXXXXX

The new list owner can change the password via the web page if that is 
easier for them. It would be easier for me to not have to ask for a 
password from the list admin for every list I create.

Don Hone
<http://edirectory.ohio.edu/?$search?uid=hone>
Ohio University

From b19141 at anl.gov  Wed Jul 16 20:05:48 2008
From: b19141 at anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:05:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] newlist auto-generate password
In-Reply-To: Mail from 'hone+mailman@oak.cats.ohiou.edu'
	dated: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:25:18 -0400
Message-ID: <20080716180549.01AE517554@britaine.cis.anl.gov>

Don Hone wrote:

>When I add a new list via the CLI, I must enter a password and it is sent 
>in the email to the list admin:
>
>	The mailing list `cgilist' has just been created for you.
>	The following is some basic information about your
>	mailing list.
>
>	Your mailing list password is:
>
>	     XXXXXXXXX
>
>The new list owner can change the password via the web page if that is 
>easier for them. It would be easier for me to not have to ask for a 
>password from the list admin for every list I create.

When I create a list and the requestor has not provided me a password,
I create one and let the new list owner change it if he/she desires.

And on the same subject Brad Knowles wrote in reply to my previous
reply:

>When you create a list from the WebUI, you have the option of having  
>Mailman generate the password itself, in which case it will get  
>included in the e-mail message that is sent to the listowner.
>
>The CLI interface is not going to auto-generate that e-mail message,  
>so by default it is not going to auto-generate that password either.

I do not create lists via the WebUI, as that will create a list with
default parameters, and then I would have to tailor the parms to
meet the needs of the requestor.  I can't always assume that the
requestor will be able to change the correct parms for his/her needs.
There are a huge number of list parameters, and changing the wrong
parm or using an incorrect value for the correct parm can cause
great damage to the list cofig.

I have 21 base list configs.  Fifteen of these are a 3x5 matrix of lists
based on sub/unsub options (3) and who is allowed to post (5).  The
other six configs are for specialty lists.  When someone requests a 
list he/she tells me what type of list, so I know what base
config file to use.  I then copy that base file, modify

     realname
     info
     description
     archive info (Y/N public/private)
     digestable

and run a script that creates the list from the config file.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994


From djenkins at cs.otago.ac.nz  Thu Jul 17 01:08:52 2008
From: djenkins at cs.otago.ac.nz (Dylan Jenkinson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:08:52 +1200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error During Attempt to Unsuscribe
Message-ID: <487E7F84.6050801@cs.otago.ac.nz>

Hi,

I have been trying to unsubscribe some people recently via an webpage of 
my creation. When I want to do the unsubscribe I use the following string:
http://[server]/options/[list]/[email]?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1&password=[password]

This works, but sends out an unsubscribe message which, for my purposes 
is unwanted. So I went on to use the following string to try to 
unsubscribe without the messages:
http://[sever]/admin/[list]/members/remove?adminpw=[password]&unsubscribees=[email]

When I try this by just typing it into the address box in my browser it 
comes up with a page that says "Bug in Mailman version 2.1.9", and when 
sent from the webpage, it does nothing.

I'm wondering, can anyone tell me if I'm doing the second unsubscribe 
right, or if I'm wrong, what it is I need to change to make it right? Or 
a way to make sure that no unsubscribe messages go out when I use the 
first method?

Thanks,
Dylan Jenkinson

From dony1985.0729 at yahoo.co.id  Thu Jul 17 04:52:10 2008
From: dony1985.0729 at yahoo.co.id (Dony Tata)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:52:10 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] true virtual hosting
Message-ID: <932888.78964.qm@web76113.mail.sg1.yahoo.com>

how to make mailing list abc at xxx.dom.org and abc at yyy.dom.org in the same machine from web, i use postfix and mailman 2.1.5 patch true virtual hosting. Patch true virtual hosting from "https://lethe.koumbit.net/svn/koumbit/trunk/patches/mailman-true-virtual-2.1.5.patch". i got the error " list already exits"
in mm_cfg.py i configure like this
DEFAULT_URL_HOST   = 'xxx..dom.org'
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'xxx.dom.org'

VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
add_virtualhost('yyy.dom.org', 'yyy.dom.org')

MTA = 'Postfix'
POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['yyy.dom.org']

in postfix i configure like this
alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases
alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases, hash:/etc/mailman/aliases
command_directory = /usr/sbin
config_directory = /etc/postfix
daemon_directory = /usr/libexec/postfix
debug_peer_level = 2
html_directory = no
inet_interfaces = all
mail_owner = postfix
mailq_path = /usr/bin/mailq.postfix
manpage_directory = /usr/share/man
mydestination = $myhostname, localhost.$mydomain, $mydomain, localhost
mydomain = dom.org
myhostname = xxx.dom.org
mynetworks = 172.18.3.0/24, 127.0.0.0/8
newaliases_path = /usr/bin/newaliases.postfix
queue_directory = /var/spool/postfix
readme_directory = /usr/share/doc/postfix-2.3.3/README_FILES
recipient_delimiter = +
sample_directory = /usr/share/doc/postfix-2.3.3/samples
sendmail_path = /usr/sbin/sendmail.postfix
setgid_group = postdrop
unknown_local_recipient_reject_code = 550
virtual_alias_maps = hash:/etc/mailman/virtual-mailman


      ___________________________________________________________________________
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Dapatkan nama yang selalu Anda inginkan sebelum diambil orang lain!
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From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul 17 05:23:35 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:23:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman stopped working
In-Reply-To: <060EDFC2221B014B9504AC06B747F58A4976274923@ex01.alentus.lan>
References: <060EDFC2221B014B9504AC06B747F58A497627491F@ex01.alentus.lan>,
	<487E0FB5.9000602@msapiro.net>
	<060EDFC2221B014B9504AC06B747F58A4976274923@ex01.alentus.lan>
Message-ID: <487EBB37.6090705@msapiro.net>

Mark Wadham wrote:
> It is running;
> 
> # ps aux |grep -i outgoing
> list      2605  0.0  0.0  11520     8 ?        S    May16  16:21 /usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s


OK, so that's not it.


> The url you gave is currently 503..

> See <http://wiki.list.org/x/A4E9>.


It's working now. Please go through the items in that FAQ and post any 
further questions or results.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Thu Jul 17 17:23:15 2008
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:23:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] true virtual hosting
In-Reply-To: <932888.78964.qm@web76113.mail.sg1.yahoo.com>
References: <932888.78964.qm@web76113.mail.sg1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200807171523.m6HFN8B0019847@newbox.eroded.org>

Dony Tata wrote:
>how to make mailing list abc at xxx.dom.org and abc at yyy.dom.org in the 
>same machine from web, i use postfix and mailman 2.1.5 patch true 
>virtual hosting. Patch true virtual hosting from 
>"https://lethe.koumbit.net/svn/koumbit/trunk/patches/mailman-true-virtual-2.1.5.patch". 
>i got the error " list already exits"
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

In short, right now under the current default mailman code base, you can't.

The list names MUST be unique.

Now having said that, there are ways to make it happen but they are 
not simple and may require code modifications. cPanel has modified 
their distribution of mailman to munge the domain with the list name 
behind the scenes to support this.

I believe there is another way to do so by running multiple instances 
of mailman in separate directories. You would have to set up your 
aliases or mail routing to deliver to the appropriate instance for 
each domain. However, I don't know exactly how to do that.



Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul 17 17:30:49 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:30:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] true virtual hosting
In-Reply-To: <932888.78964.qm@web76113.mail.sg1.yahoo.com>
References: <932888.78964.qm@web76113.mail.sg1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <487F65A9.3040902@msapiro.net>

Dony Tata wrote:
> how to make mailing list abc at xxx.dom.org and abc at yyy.dom.org in the
> same machine from web, i use postfix and mailman 2.1.5 patch true
> virtual hosting. Patch true virtual hosting from
> "https://lethe.koumbit.net/svn/koumbit/trunk/patches/mailman-true-virtual-2.1.5.patch".
> i got the error " list already exits"


This feature is scheduled for support in Mailman 3. In the mean time, if 
you use a non-standard, unsupported patch, you may be able to get help 
from the author.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From khillo100 at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 17 17:44:08 2008
From: khillo100 at hotmail.com (Khalil Abbas)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:44:08 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Discarded Messages..
Message-ID: <BLU130-W437820CF38C979025174E1FB8E0@phx.gbl>


Dear mailman guys..
 
I have this option under Sender Filters set to NO :
 
Should messages from non-members, which are automatically discarded, be forwarded to the list moderator? 
 
yet I keep recieving messages:
 
 From : mailman-bounces at localhost.localdomain on behalf of ....
 TO : MY-LIST-NAME-owner at MY-DOMAIN-NAME.com
 
how can I stop this ?
 
Thanks..
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
Time for vacation? WIN what you need- enter now!
http://www.gowindowslive.com/summergiveaway/?ocid=tag_jlyhm

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul 17 17:54:16 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:54:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Discarded Messages..
In-Reply-To: <BLU130-W437820CF38C979025174E1FB8E0@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU130-W437820CF38C979025174E1FB8E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <487F6B28.7080707@msapiro.net>

Khalil Abbas wrote:
> Dear mailman guys..
>  
> I have this option under Sender Filters set to NO :
>  
> Should messages from non-members, which are automatically discarded, be forwarded to the list moderator? 
>  
> yet I keep recieving messages:
>  
>  From : mailman-bounces at localhost.localdomain on behalf of ....
>  TO : MY-LIST-NAME-owner at MY-DOMAIN-NAME.com
>  
> how can I stop this ?


I don't know. These messages to the list-owner address could originate 
in lots of ways. If you would show us more of the message, we might be 
able to help.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul 17 18:03:52 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:03:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] newlist auto-generate password
In-Reply-To: <07154893666323BC9C81F784@OHIO-87C67B454B.cns.ohiou.edu>
References: <20080716160734.76E5917554@britaine.cis.anl.gov>	<B9461BC6-5BFE-461B-9FD9-7B24F3828595@shub-internet.org>
	<07154893666323BC9C81F784@OHIO-87C67B454B.cns.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <487F6D68.2000500@msapiro.net>

hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu wrote:
> --On Wednesday, July 16, 2008 9:49 AM -0700 Brad Knowles 
> <brad at shub-internet.org> wrote:
> 
>> The CLI interface is not going to auto-generate that e-mail message,  so
>> by default it is not going to auto-generate that password either.
> 
> When I add a new list via the CLI, I must enter a password and it is 
> sent in the email to the list admin:
> 
>     The mailing list `cgilist' has just been created for you.
>     The following is some basic information about your
>     mailing list.
> 
>     Your mailing list password is:
> 
>          XXXXXXXXX


But, you can supress this notice with -q/--quiet.


> The new list owner can change the password via the web page if that is 
> easier for them. It would be easier for me to not have to ask for a 
> password from the list admin for every list I create.


So make up your own random password. See 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2008-July/062639.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul 17 18:18:15 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:18:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error During Attempt to Unsuscribe
In-Reply-To: <487E7F84.6050801@cs.otago.ac.nz>
References: <487E7F84.6050801@cs.otago.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <487F70C7.4050007@msapiro.net>

Dylan Jenkinson wrote:
> 
> This works, but sends out an unsubscribe message which, for my purposes 
> is unwanted. So I went on to use the following string to try to 
> unsubscribe without the messages:
> http://[sever]/admin/[list]/members/remove?adminpw=[password]&unsubscribees=[email] 
> 
> 
> When I try this by just typing it into the address box in my browser it 
> comes up with a page that says "Bug in Mailman version 2.1.9", and when 
> sent from the webpage, it does nothing.


I think the 'bug' is because you haven't set
send_unsub_notifications_to_list_owner and send_unsub_ack_to_this_batch.
The bug traceback in Mailman's error log will give details, but I gather
you may not have access to this log.

You will want to set them anyway. Add
&send_unsub_notifications_to_list_owner=0&send_unsub_ack_to_this_batch=0
to your URL.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Thu Jul 17 18:28:01 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:28:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list archives
Message-ID: <20080717162806.8EA14121D16@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>

Hi Friends. I have noticed that this list's archives include 3 months which have not happened yet. 

How has this occurred, and what will happen when we reach that date and new posts crash into the improperly dated archives?

More importantly, how does one search the mailman archives looking for all posts that contain particular text?

I understand that many folks use mailarchive.com, but that seems a bit out of our control. Will it be there forever?

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Thu Jul 17 18:49:54 2008
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:49:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list archives
In-Reply-To: <20080717162806.8EA14121D16@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>
References: <20080717162806.8EA14121D16@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <200807171649.m6HGnkJw021159@newbox.eroded.org>

Michael Welch wrote:
>Hi Friends. I have noticed that this list's archives include 3 
>months which have not happened yet.
>
>How has this occurred, and what will happen when we reach that date 
>and new posts crash into the improperly dated archives?
>
>More importantly, how does one search the mailman archives looking 
>for all posts that contain particular text?
>
>I understand that many folks use mailarchive.com, but that seems a 
>bit out of our control. Will it be there forever?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

That happens because the date is extracted from the Date: header of 
the message. The header is set by the MUA sending the message, if 
somebody has their computer clock set incorrectly, this will happen.

There really isn't a lot you can do about it except maybe point out 
to the people with incorrect clocks to reset them. Changing this 
header at any point after it is generated is not recommended.

The archive will work fine as is, it will simply show the incorrectly 
dated messages in the wrong directory (they are filed by month and 
year by default). The links for threads will work fine if proper 
headers existed in the original e-mail to determine threading order. 
Threading in the archive is controlled by References: and 
In-Reply-To: headers, not by the Date: header or even the subject line.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From aidan at wemail.info  Thu Jul 17 18:46:59 2008
From: aidan at wemail.info (Aidan C A Hopkins)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:46:59 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Renaming lists - how to change the list "real_name"
	afterwards
Message-ID: <487F8593.7048.2B484521@aidan.hopkins.me.uk>

I have renamed two GNU Mailman lists using the four "mv" commands in the 
middle of the following FAQ:

  http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030617

When I go back into the new admin screen, the list name in the first box 
still shows "oldlist" and needs changing to "newlist".

I get this error if I try to do so on that screen:

  Error: real_name attribute not changed! It must differ from the list's 
name by case only.

I was expecting this to happen, so presumably there is a further edit 
needed to change the list real_name - which is of course referenced in 
the footer lines of admin and listinfo screens, and appears in the list 
of lists also.

I have done various searchs on the Wiki/FAQ without success. Any pointers 

will be much appreciated.

TIA

Aidan

-- 
A C A Hopkins               | T: 01344 430023
Wemail                      | 
VIRGINIA WATER, GU25 4RD    | E: servermgr at odg.org.uk
-----------------------------------------------------------
The addressee should satisfy him/herself that this message
contains no virus nor other harmful content (which could 
have been generated without the knowledge of the sender).
-----------------------------------------------------------



From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul 17 19:14:17 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:14:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list archives
In-Reply-To: <20080717162806.8EA14121D16@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>
References: <20080717162806.8EA14121D16@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <487F7DE9.90702@msapiro.net>

Michael Welch wrote:
> Hi Friends. I have noticed that this list's archives include 3 months
> which have not happened yet.
> 
> How has this occurred, and what will happen when we reach that date
> and new posts crash into the improperly dated archives?


As Dragon notes, this is because the original posts had bad Date: 
headers. In more recent Mailman versions, this is prevented by (from 
Defaults.py)

ARCHIVER_CLOBBER_DATE_POLICY = 2
ARCHIVER_ALLOWABLE_SANE_DATE_SKEW = days(15)


Nothing bad will happen when we reach those dates. In fact, it's 
happened before. IIRC, there were '2008' posts from years back that we 
have already caught up to.


> More importantly, how does one search the mailman archives looking
> for all posts that contain particular text?


See <http://wiki.list.org/x/OIA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul 17 19:23:00 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:23:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Renaming lists - how to change the list
 "real_name" afterwards
In-Reply-To: <487F8593.7048.2B484521@aidan.hopkins.me.uk>
References: <487F8593.7048.2B484521@aidan.hopkins.me.uk>
Message-ID: <487F7FF4.4070400@msapiro.net>

Aidan C A Hopkins wrote:
> I have renamed two GNU Mailman lists using the four "mv" commands in the 
> middle of the following FAQ:
> 
>   http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030617
> 
> When I go back into the new admin screen, the list name in the first box 
> still shows "oldlist" and needs changing to "newlist".
> 
> I get this error if I try to do so on that screen:
> 
>   Error: real_name attribute not changed! It must differ from the list's 
> name by case only.


It works for me. Are you entering a name that differs from "newlist" in 
case only?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From carol at kavanaugh.ca  Thu Jul 17 19:12:17 2008
From: carol at kavanaugh.ca (Carol Kavanaugh)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:12:17 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1605.1216227125.920.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.1605.1216227125.920.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <00b101c8e830$47182ca0$d54885e0$@ca>



--------------------------------------------------------
Carol Kavanaugh, M.Sc., ASQ CQE
Statistical Consulting
voice - (613) 634 6193
fax - (613) 634 8458
e-mail - carol at kavanaugh.ca
web - http://www.kavanaugh.ca 

-----Original Message-----
From: mailman-users-bounces+carol=kavanaugh.ca at python.org
[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+carol=kavanaugh.ca at python.org] On Behalf Of
mailman-users-request at python.org
Sent: July 16, 2008 12:52 PM
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 53, Issue 42

Send Mailman-Users mailing list submissions to
	mailman-users at python.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	mailman-users-request at python.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	mailman-users-owner at python.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Mailman-Users digest..."



From aidan at wemail.info  Thu Jul 17 20:06:07 2008
From: aidan at wemail.info (Aidan C A Hopkins at Wemail)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:06:07 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Renaming lists - how to change the list
	"real_name" afterwards
In-Reply-To: <487F7FF4.4070400@msapiro.net>
References: <487F8593.7048.2B484521@aidan.hopkins.me.uk>,
	<487F7FF4.4070400@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <487F981F.5805.2B90B81D@sales.wemail.info>

On 17 Jul 2008 at 10:23, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Aidan C A Hopkins wrote:
> > I have renamed two GNU Mailman lists using the four "mv" commands in the 
> > middle of the following FAQ:
> > 
> >   http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030617
> > 
> > When I go back into the new admin screen, the list name in the first box 
> > still shows "oldlist" and needs changing to "newlist".
> > 
> > I get this error if I try to do so on that screen:
> > 
> >   Error: real_name attribute not changed! It must differ from the list's 
> > name by case only.
> 
> 
> It works for me. Are you entering a name that differs from "newlist" in 
> case only?
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

Thanks for reply.

Strange - I still get exactly the same error! The new list name I am 
using is exactly as included in the URI; I have tried all lowercase or 
even with the first letter uppercase - doesn't help.

The admin screen still shows the old name in the title line, twice right 
at the bottom, in the overview page, the name of the archives and so on. 
The URI of all these is showing the new name.

Could it be a permission problem on some file which is effectively hidden 
unless one knows where to look?!

-- 
A C A Hopkins                   | T: 01344 430023
Wemail, PO Box 464              | F: 0870 131 5565
VIRGINIA WATER, GU25 4RQ        | E: support at wemail.info
-----------------------------------------------------------
The addressee should satisfy him/herself that this message
contains no virus nor other harmful content (which could 
have been generated without the knowledge of the sender).
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Thu Jul 17 20:13:10 2008
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Simon)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:13:10 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list archives
In-Reply-To: <200807171649.m6HGnkJw021159@newbox.eroded.org>
References: <20080717162806.8EA14121D16@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>
	<200807171649.m6HGnkJw021159@newbox.eroded.org>
Message-ID: <487F8BB6.9010000@libertytrek.org>

On 7/17/2008, Dragon (dragon at crimson-dragon.com) wrote:
> That happens because the date is extracted from the Date: header of
> the message. The header is set by the MUA sending the message, if
> somebody has their computer clock set incorrectly, this will happen.

Wow... haven't run into that one yet...

Is there a simple way to tell mailman to use the servers RECEIVED 
date/time instead?

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul 17 20:33:07 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:33:07 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list archives
In-Reply-To: <487F8BB6.9010000@libertytrek.org>
References: <20080717162806.8EA14121D16@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>	<200807171649.m6HGnkJw021159@newbox.eroded.org>
	<487F8BB6.9010000@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <487F9063.4010501@msapiro.net>

Simon wrote:
> 
> Is there a simple way to tell mailman to use the servers RECEIVED 
> date/time instead?


See the documentation in Defaults.py for the settings

ARCHIVER_CLOBBER_DATE_POLICY = 2
ARCHIVER_ALLOWABLE_SANE_DATE_SKEW = days(15)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Thu Jul 17 20:56:12 2008
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Simon)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:56:12 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list archives
In-Reply-To: <487F9063.4010501@msapiro.net>
References: <20080717162806.8EA14121D16@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>	<200807171649.m6HGnkJw021159@newbox.eroded.org>
	<487F8BB6.9010000@libertytrek.org> <487F9063.4010501@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <487F95CC.3080602@libertytrek.org>

On 7/17/2008, Mark Sapiro (mark at msapiro.net) wrote:
> See the documentation in Defaults.py for the settings
> 
> ARCHIVER_CLOBBER_DATE_POLICY = 2 

Ah, perfect, thanks... so setting it to 1 will always use the received date.

I'm wondering what the disadvantages to this are - assuming the server 
date/time is always correct?


From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Jul 17 22:03:33 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 05:03:33 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list archives
In-Reply-To: <487F95CC.3080602@libertytrek.org>
References: <20080717162806.8EA14121D16@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>
	<200807171649.m6HGnkJw021159@newbox.eroded.org>
	<487F8BB6.9010000@libertytrek.org> <487F9063.4010501@msapiro.net>
	<487F95CC.3080602@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <8763r4qnvu.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Simon writes:
 > On 7/17/2008, Mark Sapiro (mark at msapiro.net) wrote:
 > > See the documentation in Defaults.py for the settings
 > > 
 > > ARCHIVER_CLOBBER_DATE_POLICY = 2 
 > 
 > Ah, perfect, thanks... so setting it to 1 will always use the received date.
 > 
 > I'm wondering what the disadvantages to this are - assuming the server 
 > date/time is always correct?

The main disadvantage AFAICS is that the Date header is an author
header according to the standards; mail handlers should pass it
through unchanged.

Practically, mail is somewhat unreliable (more so, these days).  In a
large archive, you will surely see many messages where some hop
introduced a delay of many hours.  It is sometimes useful in forensics
(eg, identifying spam -- IIRC some of the pump and dump spams were
deliberated postdated so that more victims would think they were
looking at very fresh information).

Finally, any time you add something that changes the message you add
potential for bugs.  Also, by changing the message you may make it
less reliable as evidence should that be necessary.


From hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu  Thu Jul 17 22:09:47 2008
From: hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu (hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:09:47 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] newlist auto-generate password
Message-ID: <379E6B46E9602B47BCFF1DE4@OHIO-87C67B454B.cns.ohiou.edu>

--On Wednesday, July 16, 2008 5:47 PM +0200 Timm Stamer 
<timm.stamer at uni-oldenburg.de> wrote:

> Hi Don,
>
> I use
>
> newlist --language=$lang $listname $email `pwgen -sB 15 1`
>
> in my scripts to generate passwords. Search for pwgen.
>
>
> Timm Stamer


Timm,

That works perfectly. Thanks to all who replied to my message.


Don Hone
<http://edirectory.ohio.edu/?$search?uid=hone>
Ohio University

From mkabot at soarol.com  Thu Jul 17 22:14:08 2008
From: mkabot at soarol.com (Michael Kabot)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:14:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] true virtual hosting
In-Reply-To: <487F65A9.3040902@msapiro.net>
References: <932888.78964.qm@web76113.mail.sg1.yahoo.com>
	<487F65A9.3040902@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <00d601c8e849$ac6f4890$054dd9b0$@com>

Dony,

As the developers have pointed out you can:

1. Wait for Mailman 3.0
2. Use CPanel which has modified Mailman to support virtual hosts
3. Use the patch you found and get support from the developer and most
likely remain on an older version of Mailman

I have another method that I use with Plesk/Qmail that gets around the issue
without modifying Mailman.  Basically you append the hostname to the
listname for each list.  You then create aliases for the listname within the
virtual host that point to the combined hostname-listname Mailman addresses.
This gets around the single namespace issue.  There is a little overhead do
to the aliases but it is all internal to the machine you are running on.

Happy to provider further details off list if you are interested.


In Service,
 
Michael Kabot
President - SOAR
  Scouting Online
    Affordable & Reliable
mkabot at soarol.com
585-388-0211

www.soarol.com 
 
| -----Original Message-----
| From: mailman-users-bounces+mkabot=soarol.com at python.org
| [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+mkabot=soarol.com at python.org] On Behalf
| Of Mark Sapiro
| Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 11:31 AM
| To: Dony Tata
| Cc: Mailman-Users at python.org
| Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] true virtual hosting
| 
| Dony Tata wrote:
| > how to make mailing list abc at xxx.dom.org and abc at yyy.dom.org in the
| > same machine from web, i use postfix and mailman 2.1.5 patch true
| > virtual hosting. Patch true virtual hosting from
| > "https://lethe.koumbit.net/svn/koumbit/trunk/patches/mailman-true-
| virtual-2.1.5.patch".
| > i got the error " list already exits"
| 
| 
| This feature is scheduled for support in Mailman 3. In the mean time,
| if
| you use a non-standard, unsupported patch, you may be able to get help
| from the author.
| 
| --
| Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
| San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
| ------------------------------------------------------
| Mailman-Users mailing list
| Mailman-Users at python.org
| http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
| Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
| Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
| users%40python.org/
| Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
| users/mkabot%40soarol.com
| 
| Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9


From tanstaafl at libertytrek.org  Thu Jul 17 22:37:50 2008
From: tanstaafl at libertytrek.org (Simon)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:37:50 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list archives
In-Reply-To: <8763r4qnvu.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <20080717162806.8EA14121D16@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>	<200807171649.m6HGnkJw021159@newbox.eroded.org>	<487F8BB6.9010000@libertytrek.org>	<487F9063.4010501@msapiro.net>	<487F95CC.3080602@libertytrek.org>
	<8763r4qnvu.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <487FAD9E.3060500@libertytrek.org>

On 7/17/2008 4:03 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>>> ARCHIVER_CLOBBER_DATE_POLICY = 2 

>> Ah, perfect, thanks... so setting it to 1 will always use the received date.
>> 
>> I'm wondering what the disadvantages to this are - assuming the server 
>> date/time is always correct?

> The main disadvantage AFAICS is that the Date header is an author
> header according to the standards; mail handlers should pass it
> through unchanged.
> 
> Practically, mail is somewhat unreliable (more so, these days).  In a
> large archive, you will surely see many messages where some hop
> introduced a delay of many hours.  It is sometimes useful in forensics
> (eg, identifying spam -- IIRC some of the pump and dump spams were
> deliberated postdated so that more victims would think they were
> looking at very fresh information).
> 
> Finally, any time you add something that changes the message you add
> potential for bugs.  Also, by changing the message you may make it
> less reliable as evidence should that be necessary.

Good points... and explains the more sensible default setting of 2...

Thanks...

From rcampbel at eng.utoledo.edu  Thu Jul 17 23:15:16 2008
From: rcampbel at eng.utoledo.edu (Robert Campbell)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:15:16 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Issue that Can cause mass spam for site admin
Message-ID: <8bae9e280807171415i298e4b70gfffa033320fe5b9@mail.gmail.com>

While testing my local install, one of my colleges found an exploit with the
"forgot password" and "unsubscribe" option of the web UI and ended up
spamming me ( on purpose to prove the pt), 90 emails to the list-owner in
under 5 min as a different user ( mainly my test user), so this could be
easily scripted.

Has anyone else seen this issue, if so any suggestions on how to fix it?

From brad at shub-internet.org  Fri Jul 18 00:43:13 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:43:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list archives
In-Reply-To: <487F95CC.3080602@libertytrek.org>
References: <20080717162806.8EA14121D16@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>	<200807171649.m6HGnkJw021159@newbox.eroded.org>
	<487F8BB6.9010000@libertytrek.org> <487F9063.4010501@msapiro.net>
	<487F95CC.3080602@libertytrek.org>
Message-ID: <ACD5454A-0608-4CBE-85F8-215BE0253E07@shub-internet.org>

For one thing, that correction is applied at the time of archiving,  
not reception.  So, if you regenerate your archives in the future,  
then all thase date/time stamps will change.

-- 
Brad Knowles

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 17, 2008, at 1:56 PM, Simon <tanstaafl at libertytrek.org> wrote:

> On 7/17/2008, Mark Sapiro (mark at msapiro.net) wrote:
>> See the documentation in Defaults.py for the settings
>> ARCHIVER_CLOBBER_DATE_POLICY = 2
>
> Ah, perfect, thanks... so setting it to 1 will always use the  
> received date.
>
> I'm wondering what the disadvantages to this are - assuming the  
> server date/time is always correct?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/brad%40shub-internet.org
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9

From brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com  Fri Jul 18 03:34:43 2008
From: brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:34:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] My issue with using web server on the server to get
	to mailman
Message-ID: <20080718013443.GF27984@mrvideo.vidiot.com>

Enhancement request:

Allow the following to work:

	http://localhost/mailman/...

Then, somewhere within the configuration, mailman is told that localhost is
equal to, in my case, vidiot.com/www.vidiot.com.

After doing so more research tonight, even if I sent up the DNS bind
configuration on my system, it won't help.  I removed dns from the nsswitch.conf
file and verified that the browser can't get anywhere.

I then changed the hosts file to look like:

	192.168.1.1 mrvideo vidiot.com www.vidiot.com loghost

I then told the browser to go to http://vidiot.com and the DSL box put up
its web page.  The DSL box will not allow me to talk to myself with regards to
web pages.  Whomever wrote the Linux software for the DLS modem didn't take
into account this situation.  It should only allow web access via its LAN
address.

By using the locahost interface, I avoid sending packets out of the ethernet
port, keeping the DSL modem from intercepting them.

I can't be the only one that has had a problem with this.

I really do not want to spend money on a router to do a simple thing that
can be done in software.  That is just plain overkill.

Thanks for listening.

BTW, I'm going to WiMax in the near future, after TDS gets their act together,
which will get me a whole new internet interfce box.  No idea how it will work.
I'd rather not wait until then to find out.

MB
-- 
e-mail: vidiot at vidiot.com                                /~\ The ASCII
[I've been to Earth.  I know where it is.         ]      \ / Ribbon Campaign
[And I'm gonna take us there.    Starbuck  3/25/07]       X  Against
Visit - URL: http://vidiot.com/                          / \ HTML Email

From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Jul 18 05:27:27 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:27:27 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] My issue with using web server on the server to
	get	to mailman
In-Reply-To: <20080718013443.GF27984@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
References: <20080718013443.GF27984@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
Message-ID: <87y73zq3c0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mike Brown writes:

 > I then changed the hosts file to look like:
 > 
 > 	192.168.1.1 mrvideo vidiot.com www.vidiot.com loghost

Are you sure 192.168.1.1 isn't the DSL box?  192.168.1.1 is grabbed
for themselves by many DSL boxes.  But whatever.

Anyway, changing that to 127.0.0.1 should do what you want; the DSL
box can't get its hands on that since it never leaves the local host
at all.

 > I really do not want to spend money on a router to do a simple thing that
 > can be done in software.  That is just plain overkill.

Yeah, but it shouldn't be done in Mailman.  That's just going to add
confusing, potentially buggy code for a task that should be arranged
by the host OS for best results (including making the meaning of tests
clear).


From jclarkv at gmail.com  Fri Jul 18 05:22:20 2008
From: jclarkv at gmail.com (Clark Venable)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:22:20 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Palm Versamail user claims empty e-mail message
	bodies
Message-ID: <e79309600807172022i322fd5bs380779bc84554811@mail.gmail.com>

I just started using Mailman (2.1.11) via Dreamhost.  I have one user who
tells me that, on his Palm Treo using Versamail (all software up-to-date) he
receives messages from the list, but the message body is always blank. I've
searched and read the posts on this forum and have a) asked him if his
e-mails have attachments that may actually contain the message (there is not
attachment) and b) have removed the string of text that I was adding to the
beginning of messages. Is there anything obvious I'm missing (besides just
encouraging him to face the facts and get an iPhone)?

Thanks in advance for any ideas,

-- 
Clark Venable

From brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com  Fri Jul 18 05:59:35 2008
From: brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:59:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] My issue with using web server on the server	to
	get to mailman
In-Reply-To: <87y73zq3c0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <20080718013443.GF27984@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
	<87y73zq3c0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20080718035935.GH27984@mrvideo.vidiot.com>

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 12:27:27PM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Mike Brown writes:
> 
>  > I then changed the hosts file to look like:
>  > 
>  > 	192.168.1.1 mrvideo vidiot.com www.vidiot.com loghost
> 
> Are you sure 192.168.1.1 isn't the DSL box?  192.168.1.1 is grabbed
> for themselves by many DSL boxes.  But whatever.

Yes.  The first DSL box I got was one of those passive types, where the computer
is set to the actual IP.  The Linux server used two ports at that time and the
internal LAN had the server at 192.168.1.1.  The Linux server did the
firewalling and NAT processing.  When the upgraded DSL connection was done,
it used new equipment and a new modem.  So I assigned 192.168.1.254 to the
DSL NAT box and that is used as the gateway address by all of the LAN
computers.

> Anyway, changing that to 127.0.0.1 should do what you want; the DSL
> box can't get its hands on that since it never leaves the local host
> at all.

Good idea, didn't think of doing it there.  So now the hosts file looks like:

	127.0.0.1       localhost www.vdiot.com vidiot.com

Doing a ping got the right results:

	mrvideo.ZROOT <64> ping -s vidiot.com
	PING vidiot.com: 56 data bytes
	64 bytes from localhost (127.0.0.1): icmp_seq=0. time=0.0620 ms

That is a good sign.

All went to pieces after that.  Putting vidiot.com as the URL got the damn
DSL modem's web page again.  That is just not right.  As you say, that should
be impossible.

Back to the drawing board to figure out what is going on with those packets.

BTW, the packets are really going to the DSL modem, because when I disconnect
the LAN cable to the bax, the browser freezes until I reconnect it, and the
pages gets loaded.

MB
-- 
e-mail: vidiot at vidiot.com                                /~\ The ASCII
[I've been to Earth.  I know where it is.         ]      \ / Ribbon Campaign
[And I'm gonna take us there.    Starbuck  3/25/07]       X  Against
Visit - URL: http://vidiot.com/                          / \ HTML Email

From brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com  Fri Jul 18 06:12:05 2008
From: brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:12:05 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] My issue with using web server on the server	to
	get to mailman
In-Reply-To: <87y73zq3c0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <20080718013443.GF27984@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
	<87y73zq3c0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20080718041205.GI27984@mrvideo.vidiot.com>

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 12:27:27PM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> Anyway, changing that to 127.0.0.1 should do what you want; the DSL
> box can't get its hands on that since it never leaves the local host
> at all.

Found it.  I have two Opera browsers running (don't ask) with separate .opera
files.  Something came to mind and to test the theory out, I went to the 2nd
browser and guess what, it worked.  I can get to the mailman web page even.

Take a deep breath, think for a couple of seconds and the reason why will
instantly occur to you.

1001

1002
















Caching.

Once the internet address was found, it got cached.

Crap, I've cleared the cache and the history and it still goes there.
I had to clear everything and get out of Opera, because there is also 20MB
of memory cache :-)

Thanks for the pointer to use the local loopback interface.  Much better
to use that.

MB
-- 
e-mail: vidiot at vidiot.com                                /~\ The ASCII
[I've been to Earth.  I know where it is.         ]      \ / Ribbon Campaign
[And I'm gonna take us there.    Starbuck  3/25/07]       X  Against
Visit - URL: http://vidiot.com/                          / \ HTML Email

From dony1985.0729 at yahoo.co.id  Fri Jul 18 08:23:32 2008
From: dony1985.0729 at yahoo.co.id (Dony Tata)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:23:32 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to virtual domain
Message-ID: <37301.85889.qm@web76112.mail.sg1.yahoo.com>

how to configure virtual domain with tutorial in http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-install/postfix-virtual.html, 

Here's an example.  Say that Postfix is configured to handle the virtual
domains dom1.ain, dom2.ain, and dom3.ain, and further
that in your main.cf file you've got the following settings: 
    myhostname = mail.dom1.ain
    mydomain = dom1.ain
    mydestination = $myhostname, localhost.$mydomain
    virtual_alias_maps =
        hash:/some/path/to/virtual-dom1,
        hash:/some/path/to/virtual-dom2,
        hash:/some/path/to/virtual-dom3

If in your virtual-dom1 file, you've got the following lines: 
    dom1.ain  IGNORE
    @dom1.ain @mail.dom1.ain
How to make file virtual-dom2 and virtual-dom3 ?



      ___________________________________________________________________________
Dapatkan alamat Email baru Anda!
Dapatkan nama yang selalu Anda inginkan sebelum diambil orang lain!
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/id/

From brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com  Fri Jul 18 08:49:22 2008
From: brown at mrvideo.vidiot.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 01:49:22 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] My thoughts on mailman
Message-ID: <20080718064922.GA4269@mrvideo.vidiot.com>

Now that I am up and running, I want to express my thoughts about the program.

	LOVE IT

While it didn't seem that way, based upon all of the previous e-mail, the
web interface to the mail list is top notch.

The developers have done an excellent job.

Thanks for a great mail list package.

MB
-- 
e-mail: vidiot at vidiot.com                                /~\ The ASCII
[I've been to Earth.  I know where it is.         ]      \ / Ribbon Campaign
[And I'm gonna take us there.    Starbuck  3/25/07]       X  Against
Visit - URL: http://vidiot.com/                          / \ HTML Email

From r.barrett at openinfo.co.uk  Fri Jul 18 15:29:59 2008
From: r.barrett at openinfo.co.uk (Richard Barrett)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:29:59 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Patches revised for MM 2.1.11
Message-ID: <0F8EB69B-E74B-4F01-8F2E-6A9504F8B3CB@openinfo.co.uk>

For anyone that uses them, I have put MM 2.1.11 compatible versions  
of the various Mailman patches I maintain up on my web site at:

http://www.openinfo.co.uk/mm/index.html

Patches are as follows:

Sourceforge Patch Number - Description
444879 - Archive indexer control to improve indexing.
444884 - Integration of Mailman & htdig for archive searching.
644797 - Revised mailer exit status.
760567 - Moderation request message content.
820723 - Mailman/pipermail/MHonarc integration
850805 - Aggressive anti email address harvesting measures
1442025 - List Specialisation for Support Groups
1483446 - Daily mbox files for list mbox archives

I will also upload them to Sourceforge as time permits, probably over  
this weekend.


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 18 17:11:05 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:11:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Renaming lists - how to change the
 list	"real_name" afterwards
In-Reply-To: <487F981F.5805.2B90B81D@sales.wemail.info>
References: <487F8593.7048.2B484521@aidan.hopkins.me.uk>,
	<487F7FF4.4070400@msapiro.net>
	<487F981F.5805.2B90B81D@sales.wemail.info>
Message-ID: <4880B289.6030401@msapiro.net>

Aidan C A Hopkins at Wemail wrote:
> 
> Strange - I still get exactly the same error! The new list name I am 
> using is exactly as included in the URI; I have tried all lowercase or 
> even with the first letter uppercase - doesn't help.
> 
> The admin screen still shows the old name in the title line, twice right 
> at the bottom, in the overview page, the name of the archives and so on. 
> The URI of all these is showing the new name.
> 
> Could it be a permission problem on some file which is effectively hidden 
> unless one knows where to look?!


I don't think so. It is a simple check of the entry for real_name 
against the list's internal name.

You can try the following in the Mailman directory:

$ bin/withlist -l newname
Loading list newname (locked)
The variable `m' is the newname MailList instance
 >>> m.real_name
'OldName'
 >>> m.real_name = 'NewName'
 >>> m.Save()
 >>>
Unlocking (but not saving) list: newname
Finalizing
$

You type the withlist command, and within withlist, you type the 
responses to the >>> prompts. On the >>> last line, your entry is 
control-D (end of file)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 18 17:40:19 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:40:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to virtual domain
In-Reply-To: <37301.85889.qm@web76112.mail.sg1.yahoo.com>
References: <37301.85889.qm@web76112.mail.sg1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4880B963.3090901@msapiro.net>

Dony Tata wrote:
> how to configure virtual domain with tutorial in http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-install/postfix-virtual.html, 
> 
> Here's an example.  Say that Postfix is configured to handle the virtual
> domains dom1.ain, dom2.ain, and dom3.ain, and further
> that in your main.cf file you've got the following settings: 
>     myhostname = mail.dom1.ain
>     mydomain = dom1.ain
>     mydestination = $myhostname, localhost.$mydomain
>     virtual_alias_maps =
>         hash:/some/path/to/virtual-dom1,
>         hash:/some/path/to/virtual-dom2,
>         hash:/some/path/to/virtual-dom3
> 
> If in your virtual-dom1 file, you've got the following lines: 
>     dom1.ain  IGNORE
>     @dom1.ain @mail.dom1.ain
> How to make file virtual-dom2 and virtual-dom3 ?


It would be much better if you would just describe what your 
configuration is and what you want to do rather than asking questions 
about some possibly irrelevant material from the installation manual.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Jul 18 17:50:17 2008
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:50:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] My issue with using web server on the server	to
 get to mailman
In-Reply-To: <20080718035935.GH27984@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
References: <20080718013443.GF27984@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
	<87y73zq3c0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<20080718035935.GH27984@mrvideo.vidiot.com>
Message-ID: <200807181550.m6IFnxIK004996@newbox.eroded.org>

Mike Brown wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 12:27:27PM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> > Mike Brown writes:
> >
> >  > I then changed the hosts file to look like:
> >  >
> >  >    192.168.1.1 mrvideo vidiot.com www.vidiot.com loghost
> >
> > Are you sure 192.168.1.1 isn't the DSL box?  192.168.1.1 is grabbed
> > for themselves by many DSL boxes.  But whatever.
>
>Yes.  The first DSL box I got was one of those passive types, where 
>the computer
>is set to the actual IP.  The Linux server used two ports at that time and the
>internal LAN had the server at 192.168.1.1.  The Linux server did the
>firewalling and NAT processing.  When the upgraded DSL connection was done,
>it used new equipment and a new modem.  So I assigned 192.168.1.254 to the
>DSL NAT box and that is used as the gateway address by all of the LAN
>computers.
>
> > Anyway, changing that to 127.0.0.1 should do what you want; the DSL
> > box can't get its hands on that since it never leaves the local host
> > at all.
>
>Good idea, didn't think of doing it there.  So now the hosts file looks like:
>
>         127.0.0.1       localhost www.vdiot.com vidiot.com
>
>Doing a ping got the right results:
>
>         mrvideo.ZROOT <64> ping -s vidiot.com
>         PING vidiot.com: 56 data bytes
>         64 bytes from localhost (127.0.0.1): icmp_seq=0. time=0.0620 ms
>
>That is a good sign.
>
>All went to pieces after that.  Putting vidiot.com as the URL got the damn
>DSL modem's web page again.  That is just not right.  As you say, that should
>be impossible.
>
>Back to the drawing board to figure out what is going on with those packets.
>
>BTW, the packets are really going to the DSL modem, because when I disconnect
>the LAN cable to the bax, the browser freezes until I reconnect it, and the
>pages gets loaded.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

This is seriously off-topic for this list but here goes anyway...


Do you have a host.conf file on your system? (You should in the /etc directory)

If so, does it have something like this in it?

order bind hosts


If so, reverse the order of lookup to:

order hosts bind


That will ensure that the IP address resolution is driven by what is 
in the hosts file before it goes out to any DNS server.

More info:
http://tldp.org/LDP/nag/node82.html



Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 18 17:59:40 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:59:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Palm Versamail user claims empty e-mail message
 bodies
In-Reply-To: <e79309600807172022i322fd5bs380779bc84554811@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e79309600807172022i322fd5bs380779bc84554811@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4880BDEC.20000@msapiro.net>

Clark Venable wrote:
> I just started using Mailman (2.1.11) via Dreamhost.  I have one user
> who tells me that, on his Palm Treo using Versamail (all software
> up-to-date) he receives messages from the list, but the message body
> is always blank. I've searched and read the posts on this forum and
> have a) asked him if his e-mails have attachments that may actually
> contain the message (there is not attachment) and b) have removed the
> string of text that I was adding to the beginning of messages. Is
> there anything obvious I'm missing (besides just encouraging him to
> face the facts and get an iPhone)?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any ideas,


It's hard to say without seeing the an actual list message, but you may 
be able to work around this by setting content filtering to accept only 
text/plain parts or by making sure that msg_header and msg_footer are empty.

Or you could suggest to your user to subscribe to the 'plain' format digest.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gilmore.126 at osu.edu  Fri Jul 18 18:27:53 2008
From: gilmore.126 at osu.edu (Melinda Gilmore)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:27:53 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] script
Message-ID: <010f01c8e8f3$3a69fa60$6af29280@dyn.cio.osu.edu>

I am trying to write a script with bin/withlist -l -r fix_url listname in
it.    But I keep getting an erro for the fix_url part.   Like the script
cannot see the second half with the withlist.  The error I get is

Importing /usr/local/mailman/bin/fix_url...
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/withlist", line 299, in ?
    main()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/withlist", line 267, in main
    __import__(module)
ImportError: No module named /usr/local/mailman/bin/fix_url


Has anyone had this problem in writing a script for mailman.

Thanks Mindy

Melinda Gilmore
Systems Engineer
The Ohio State University
Enterprise Messaging/OIT
614-292-4953


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 18 18:47:59 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:47:59 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] script
In-Reply-To: <010f01c8e8f3$3a69fa60$6af29280@dyn.cio.osu.edu>
References: <010f01c8e8f3$3a69fa60$6af29280@dyn.cio.osu.edu>
Message-ID: <4880C93F.8000503@msapiro.net>

Melinda Gilmore wrote:
> I am trying to write a script with bin/withlist -l -r fix_url listname in
> it.    But I keep getting an erro for the fix_url part.   Like the script
> cannot see the second half with the withlist.  The error I get is
> 
> Importing /usr/local/mailman/bin/fix_url...
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/withlist", line 299, in ?
>     main()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/withlist", line 267, in main
>     __import__(module)
> ImportError: No module named /usr/local/mailman/bin/fix_url


It looks like your script actually has something which is or expands to

/usr/local/mailman/bin/withlist -l -r /usr/local/mailman/bin/fix_url ...

If so, this is the problem. The command in the script should be

/usr/local/mailman/bin/withlist -l -r fix_url ...

There must not be a path to 'fix_url'. fix_url will be imported from the 
same directory as withlist.

If this is not the issue, then please post more detail from the script.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From aidan at wemail.info  Fri Jul 18 18:52:09 2008
From: aidan at wemail.info (Aidan C A Hopkins)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:52:09 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Renaming lists - how to change the list
	"real_name" afterwards
In-Reply-To: <4880B289.6030401@msapiro.net>
References: <487F8593.7048.2B484521@aidan.hopkins.me.uk>,
	<487F981F.5805.2B90B81D@sales.wemail.info>,
	<4880B289.6030401@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <4880D849.29179.30739527@aidan.hopkins.me.uk>

On 18 Jul 2008 at 8:11, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Aidan C A Hopkins at Wemail wrote:
> > 
> > Strange - I still get exactly the same error! The new list name I am
> > using is exactly as included in the URI; I have tried all lowercase or
> > even with the first letter uppercase - doesn't help.
> > 
> > The admin screen still shows the old name in the title line, twice right
> > at the bottom, in the overview page, the name of the archives and so on.
> > The URI of all these is showing the new name.
> > 
> > Could it be a permission problem on some file which is effectively
> > hidden unless one knows where to look?!
> 
> 
> I don't think so. It is a simple check of the entry for real_name 
> against the list's internal name.
> 
> You can try the following in the Mailman directory:
> 
> $ bin/withlist -l newname
> Loading list newname (locked)
> The variable `m' is the newname MailList instance
>  >>> m.real_name
> 'OldName'
>  >>> m.real_name = 'NewName'
>  >>> m.Save()
>  >>>
> Unlocking (but not saving) list: newname
> Finalizing
> $
> 
> You type the withlist command, and within withlist, you type the 
> responses to the >>> prompts. On the >>> last line, your entry is 
> control-D (end of file)
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

Thanks very much - this did the trick, with one exception - the archives 
are still bearing the old name. Presumably this just needs a rebuild as 
mentioned somewhere in the FAQ which I used yesterday. 

Perhaps your instructions need adding to the FAQ?!

Thanks again for your invaluable help.


-- 
Aidan C A Hopkins         | T: 01344 430023   
Wemail                    | 
14 Harpesford Avenue      | F: 0870 131 3602
VIRGINIA WATER            |
GU25 4RD                  | E: aidan at wemail.info
-----------------------------------------------------------
This message is intended for the exclusive use of the
addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient, you
should not use the contents nor disclose them to any other
person and you should immediately notify the sender and
delete the message, including any printed copy.

The addressee should satisfy him/herself that this message
contains no virus nor other harmful content (which could 
have been generated without the knowledge of the sender).
-----------------------------------------------------------



From dony1985.0729 at yahoo.co.id  Fri Jul 18 19:18:42 2008
From: dony1985.0729 at yahoo.co.id (Dony Tata)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 01:18:42 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] still virtual domain
Message-ID: <507549.71637.qm@web76116.mail.sg1.yahoo.com>

how to configure virtual domain with tutorial in http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-install/postfix-virtual.html, 

Here's an example.  Say that Postfix is configured to handle the virtual
domains dom1.ain, dom2.ain, and dom3.ain, and further
that in your main.cf file you've got the following settings: 
    myhostname = mail.dom1.ain
    mydomain = dom1.ain
    mydestination = $myhostname, localhost.$mydomain
    virtual_alias_maps =
        hash:/some/path/to/virtual-dom1,
        hash:/some/path/to/virtual-dom2,
        hash:/some/path/to/virtual-dom3

If in your virtual-dom1 file, you've got the following lines: 
    dom1.ain  IGNORE
    @dom1.ain @mail.dom1.ain
How to make file virtual-dom2 and virtual-dom3 ?


      ___________________________________________________________________________
Dapatkan nama yang Anda sukai!
Sekarang Anda dapat memiliki email di @ymail.com dan @rocketmail.com.
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/id/

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 18 19:48:56 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:48:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] still virtual domain
In-Reply-To: <507549.71637.qm@web76116.mail.sg1.yahoo.com>
References: <507549.71637.qm@web76116.mail.sg1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4880D788.7020800@msapiro.net>

Dony Tata wrote:
> how to configure virtual domain with tutorial in http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-install/postfix-virtual.html, 
> 
> Here's an example.  Say that Postfix is configured to handle the virtual
> domains dom1.ain, dom2.ain, and dom3.ain, and further
> that in your main.cf file you've got the following settings: 
>     myhostname = mail.dom1.ain
>     mydomain = dom1.ain
>     mydestination = $myhostname, localhost.$mydomain
>     virtual_alias_maps =
>         hash:/some/path/to/virtual-dom1,
>         hash:/some/path/to/virtual-dom2,
>         hash:/some/path/to/virtual-dom3
> 
> If in your virtual-dom1 file, you've got the following lines: 
>     dom1.ain  IGNORE
>     @dom1.ain @mail.dom1.ain
> How to make file virtual-dom2 and virtual-dom3 ?


Except for the subject this is exactly the same thing you posted less 
than 11 hours previously. My answer at 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2008-July/062683.html> 
still applies.

As far as the virtual-dom2 and virtual-dom3 files in this example are 
concerned, like the virtual-dom1 file, they would be pre-existing files 
in your Postfix installation before integration with Mailman.

If you won't tell us what your configuration is and what you want to do, 
we can't help you.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 18 19:56:39 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:56:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Renaming lists - how to change the
 list	"real_name" afterwards
In-Reply-To: <4880D849.29179.30739527@aidan.hopkins.me.uk>
References: <487F8593.7048.2B484521@aidan.hopkins.me.uk>,
	<487F981F.5805.2B90B81D@sales.wemail.info>,
	<4880B289.6030401@msapiro.net>
	<4880D849.29179.30739527@aidan.hopkins.me.uk>
Message-ID: <4880D957.1090508@msapiro.net>

Aidan C A Hopkins wrote:
> 
> Thanks very much - this did the trick, with one exception - the archives 
> are still bearing the old name. Presumably this just needs a rebuild as 
> mentioned somewhere in the FAQ which I used yesterday. 


Some of the archive pages like the TOC and the current month's index 
will be regenerated with the new name, but most of the pages are static 
at this point, so yes, a rebuild of the archive is required to fix them.


> Perhaps your instructions need adding to the FAQ?!


Except I have no idea why you weren't able to change the name via the 
General Options page. I did it myself in my 2.1.11 installation to be 
sure it worked, and it did.

Is your Mailman a package? What version?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From maciej.homziuk at deutsche-versicherungsboerse.de  Fri Jul 18 20:35:51 2008
From: maciej.homziuk at deutsche-versicherungsboerse.de (Maciej Homziuk)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:35:51 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] including text in msg_header from external files
Message-ID: <4880E287.1070900@deutsche-versicherungsboerse.de>

Hi,

I have got the following problem: I would like use my own application to 
manage the headers in the e-mails that are being postet over my mailing 
list. My application saves txt file on my server and I would like 
mailman to load the content of that file and put it into the header.

Is there any way to do this?

best regards

M. Homziuk


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 18 21:14:44 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:14:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] including text in msg_header from external files
In-Reply-To: <4880E287.1070900@deutsche-versicherungsboerse.de>
References: <4880E287.1070900@deutsche-versicherungsboerse.de>
Message-ID: <4880EBA4.7030301@msapiro.net>

Maciej Homziuk wrote:
> 
> I have got the following problem: I would like use my own application to 
> manage the headers in the e-mails that are being postet over my mailing 
> list. My application saves txt file on my server and I would like 
> mailman to load the content of that file and put it into the header.
> 
> Is there any way to do this?

How dynamic is this content. If it doesn't change often, you could 
consider wrapping it between

msg_header = """

and

"""

So the whole file looks like

msg_header = """Line 1
Line 2
etc.
"""

and then run

bin/config_list -i /path/to/file listname

to update the list.

You could also modify Mailman/Handlers/Decorate.py to read the header 
from a file. To make it somewhat general, you could modify the 
decorate() function to look at the template argument and if it begins 
with a '/' consider it to be a path to a file containing the text. This 
would then work for messages and digests and headers and footers.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From terri at zone12.com  Sat Jul 19 03:43:59 2008
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 21:43:59 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Renaming lists - how to change the list
	"real_name" afterwards
In-Reply-To: <4880D849.29179.30739527@aidan.hopkins.me.uk>
References: <487F8593.7048.2B484521@aidan.hopkins.me.uk>,
	<487F981F.5805.2B90B81D@sales.wemail.info>,
	<4880B289.6030401@msapiro.net>
	<4880D849.29179.30739527@aidan.hopkins.me.uk>
Message-ID: <04EE59EE-480A-45FB-AE03-C438DFE09851@zone12.com>

On 18-Jul-08, at 12:52 PM, Aidan C A Hopkins wrote:
> Thanks very much - this did the trick, with one exception - the  
> archives
> are still bearing the old name. Presumably this just needs a  
> rebuild as
> mentioned somewhere in the FAQ which I used yesterday.
>
> Perhaps your instructions need adding to the FAQ?!

The wiki can be edited by anyone, so please go ahead and do that Aidan!

  Terri


From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Sat Jul 19 05:56:37 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:56:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list archives
In-Reply-To: <487F7DE9.90702@msapiro.net>
References: <20080717162806.8EA14121D16@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>
	<487F7DE9.90702@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20080719035650.0CA24131B18@friskymail-a2.g.dreamhost.com>



Mark Sapiro wrote at 10:14 AM 7/17/2008:
 
>>More importantly, how does one search the mailman archives looking
>>for all posts that contain particular text?
>
>
>See <http://wiki.list.org/x/OIA9>.

I was pleased to see that the DreamHost implementation of the Mailman archives includes htdig, which seems to be a nice little search facility. 

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org


From jm2 at jensmeyer.de  Sat Jul 19 09:29:54 2008
From: jm2 at jensmeyer.de (Jens Meyer)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 09:29:54 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and virtual mailhosting (postfix)
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008061311245804531481f37f@msapiro>
References: <PC18702008061311245804531481f37f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <488197F2.60205@jensmeyer.de>

Dear Mark, hello all!

Thank you very much for your detailed reply to my request from June. 
Your help is greatly appreciated - but unfortunately I had no time to 
check this out until now due to work-overload and holidays.

My system accepts mails for listname at lists.myserver.de without problems. 
The only problem is that I can not use the internal redirection from 
mailman to listname at myserver.de without (internal) postfix-warnings 
because the domain myserver.de is used by the virtual mailhosting also 
(see my last post).

So one solution would be to "ask" mailman to redirect all emails not to 
listname at myserver.de but to listname at MAIL.myserver.de.

Do you think this is possible or is there another solution for my problem?

Kind regards,

       Jens

Mark Sapiro schrieb:
> Jens Meyer wrote:
>> Our postfix-mailserver hosts several domains (virtual mailhosting, 
>> postfix/mysql) and "mailman".
>>
>> The "primary domain" myserver.de is a virtualized domain also. So this 
>> domain is not listed in mydestination:
>> -->
>> myhostname = mail.myserver.de
>> mydomain   = myserver.de
>> myorigin   = $mydomain
>>
>> mydestination = $myhostname, localhost
>> <--
>>
>> As far as I understand mailman forwards all emails to the "primary 
>> domain" (mydomain) and mailman is only working if I add $mydomain to 
>> mydestination.
> 
> 
> This is the assumption of Mailman/Postfix integration.
> 
> 
>> But when doing this there are warnings from postfix that it is not 
>> allowed to list the domain in the virtual aliases (mysql-database) and 
>> in relay_domains.
>>
>> Is there any possiblity to configure mailman to forward the emails in 
>> ./data/virtual-mailman not to "testliste2 at myserver.de" but to 
>> "testliste2 at mail.myserver.de"?
>>
>> My actual config is:
>> -->
>> DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mail.myserver.de'
>> DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.myserver.de'
>> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'
>>
>> MTA = 'Postfix'
>> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['lists.myserver.de']
>> add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
>> <--
> 
> 
> I don't understand your configuration. The above Mailman config items
> say that lists.myserver.de is a postfix virtual domain and that
> Mailman lists whose host_name is lists.myserver.de will get
> virtual_mailman entries of the form
> 
> testliste2 at lists.myserver.de   testliste2
> 
> (i.e. map the virtual domain address 'testliste2 at lists.myserver.de' to
> local name 'testliste2' where it will be handled by the 'testliste2:'
> entry in aliases).  However, your setting of DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST =
> 'mail.myserver.de' says lists will be created with a host_name of
> 'mail.myserver.de', so no virtual_mailman entries will be created at
> all.
> 
> Something is clearly wrong. From your description, I think if you change
> 
> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['lists.myserver.de']
> 
> to
> 
> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['mail.myserver.de']
> 
> And run Mailman's bin/genaliases, you will get what you want. I.e., you
> will get virtual_mailman with entries like
> 
> testliste2 at mail.myserver.de   testliste2
> 
> which will map the virtual domain list address
> 'testliste2 at mail.myserver.de[' to the local name 'testliste2' which
> will be delivered to Mailman according to the 'testliste2' alias in
> Mailman's data/aliases.
> 


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jul 19 16:38:47 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 07:38:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and virtual mailhosting (postfix)
In-Reply-To: <488197F2.60205@jensmeyer.de>
References: <PC18702008061311245804531481f37f@msapiro>
	<488197F2.60205@jensmeyer.de>
Message-ID: <4881FC77.6090101@msapiro.net>

Jens Meyer wrote:
> 
> My system accepts mails for listname at lists.myserver.de without problems. 
> The only problem is that I can not use the internal redirection from 
> mailman to listname at myserver.de without (internal) postfix-warnings 
> because the domain myserver.de is used by the virtual mailhosting also 
> (see my last post).
> 
> So one solution would be to "ask" mailman to redirect all emails not to 
> listname at myserver.de but to listname at MAIL.myserver.de.


I don't think I understand what you want to do. If you want the Mailman 
list to 'advertise' itself as listname at MAIL.myserver.de, all you need to 
do is change the list's host_name attribute on the General Options admin 
page to mail.myserver.de if it isn't already.

If what you are asking is for Mailman to create virtual alias map 
entries for Postfix of the form

listname at mail.myserver.de   listname
...

You need to set

POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['mail.myserver.de']

in mm_cfg.py instead of what you have, and then run Mailman's 
bin/genaliases to generate Mailman's data/virtual-mailman* files with 
the appropriate entries. You also need to reference this file in 
Postfix's virtual_alias_maps.

This is what I tried to say below.


> Mark Sapiro schrieb:
>> Jens Meyer wrote:
>>> Our postfix-mailserver hosts several domains (virtual mailhosting, 
>>> postfix/mysql) and "mailman".
>>>
>>> The "primary domain" myserver.de is a virtualized domain also. So 
>>> this domain is not listed in mydestination:
>>> -->
>>> myhostname = mail.myserver.de
>>> mydomain   = myserver.de
>>> myorigin   = $mydomain
>>>
>>> mydestination = $myhostname, localhost
>>> <--
>>>
>>> As far as I understand mailman forwards all emails to the "primary 
>>> domain" (mydomain) and mailman is only working if I add $mydomain to 
>>> mydestination.
>>
>>
>> This is the assumption of Mailman/Postfix integration.
>>
>>
>>> But when doing this there are warnings from postfix that it is not 
>>> allowed to list the domain in the virtual aliases (mysql-database) 
>>> and in relay_domains.
>>>
>>> Is there any possiblity to configure mailman to forward the emails in 
>>> ./data/virtual-mailman not to "testliste2 at myserver.de" but to 
>>> "testliste2 at mail.myserver.de"?
>>>
>>> My actual config is:
>>> -->
>>> DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mail.myserver.de'
>>> DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.myserver.de'
>>> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'
>>>
>>> MTA = 'Postfix'
>>> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['lists.myserver.de']
>>> add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
>>> <--
>>
>>
>> I don't understand your configuration. The above Mailman config items
>> say that lists.myserver.de is a postfix virtual domain and that
>> Mailman lists whose host_name is lists.myserver.de will get
>> virtual_mailman entries of the form
>>
>> testliste2 at lists.myserver.de   testliste2
>>
>> (i.e. map the virtual domain address 'testliste2 at lists.myserver.de' to
>> local name 'testliste2' where it will be handled by the 'testliste2:'
>> entry in aliases).  However, your setting of DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST =
>> 'mail.myserver.de' says lists will be created with a host_name of
>> 'mail.myserver.de', so no virtual_mailman entries will be created at
>> all.
>>
>> Something is clearly wrong. From your description, I think if you change
>>
>> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['lists.myserver.de']
>>
>> to
>>
>> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['mail.myserver.de']
>>
>> And run Mailman's bin/genaliases, you will get what you want. I.e., you
>> will get virtual_mailman with entries like
>>
>> testliste2 at mail.myserver.de   testliste2
>>
>> which will map the virtual domain list address
>> 'testliste2 at mail.myserver.de[' to the local name 'testliste2' which
>> will be delivered to Mailman according to the 'testliste2' alias in
>> Mailman's data/aliases.
>>


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From t292f-misc2 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 19 18:58:43 2008
From: t292f-misc2 at yahoo.com (t292f-misc2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 09:58:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 53, Issue 48
In-Reply-To: <mailman.20.1216461605.14439.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <794106.24971.qm@web82203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I am still asked to moderate requests even though moderation was turned off in Privacy > Sender.  

Any suggestion?

mailman-users-request at python.org wrote: Send Mailman-Users mailing list submissions to
 mailman-users at python.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
 http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
 mailman-users-request at python.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
 mailman-users-owner at python.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Mailman-Users digest..."
Today's Topics:

   1. Re: still virtual domain (Mark Sapiro)
   2. Re: Renaming lists - how to change the list "real_name"
      afterwards (Mark Sapiro)
   3. including text in msg_header from external files (Maciej Homziuk)
   4. Re: including text in msg_header from external files (Mark Sapiro)
   5. Re: Renaming lists - how to change the list "real_name"
      afterwards (Terri Oda)
   6. Re: list archives (Michael Welch)
   7. Re: Mailman and virtual mailhosting (postfix) (Jens Meyer)
From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
CC: Mailman-Users at python.org
To: Dony Tata <dony1985.0729 at yahoo.co.id>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:48:56 -0700
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] still virtual domain

 Dony Tata wrote:
> how to configure virtual domain with tutorial in http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-install/postfix-virtual.html, 
> 
> Here's an example.  Say that Postfix is configured to handle the virtual
> domains dom1.ain, dom2.ain, and dom3.ain, and further
> that in your main.cf file you've got the following settings: 
>     myhostname = mail.dom1.ain
>     mydomain = dom1.ain
>     mydestination = $myhostname, localhost.$mydomain
>     virtual_alias_maps =
>         hash:/some/path/to/virtual-dom1,
>         hash:/some/path/to/virtual-dom2,
>         hash:/some/path/to/virtual-dom3
> 
> If in your virtual-dom1 file, you've got the following lines: 
>     dom1.ain  IGNORE
>     @dom1.ain @mail.dom1.ain
> How to make file virtual-dom2 and virtual-dom3 ?


Except for the subject this is exactly the same thing you posted less 
than 11 hours previously. My answer at 
 
still applies.

As far as the virtual-dom2 and virtual-dom3 files in this example are 
concerned, like the virtual-dom1 file, they would be pre-existing files 
in your Postfix installation before integration with Mailman.

If you won't tell us what your configuration is and what you want to do, 
we can't help you.

-- 
Mark Sapiro         The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
CC: mailman-users at python.org
To: aidan at wemail.info
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:56:39 -0700
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Renaming lists - how to change the
 list "real_name" afterwards

 Aidan C A Hopkins wrote:
> 
> Thanks very much - this did the trick, with one exception - the archives 
> are still bearing the old name. Presumably this just needs a rebuild as 
> mentioned somewhere in the FAQ which I used yesterday. 


Some of the archive pages like the TOC and the current month's index 
will be regenerated with the new name, but most of the pages are static 
at this point, so yes, a rebuild of the archive is required to fix them.


> Perhaps your instructions need adding to the FAQ?!


Except I have no idea why you weren't able to change the name via the 
General Options page. I did it myself in my 2.1.11 installation to be 
sure it worked, and it did.

Is your Mailman a package? What version?

-- 
Mark Sapiro         The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From: Maciej Homziuk <maciej.homziuk at deutsche-versicherungsboerse.de>
To: mailman-users at python.org
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:35:51 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] including text in msg_header from external files

 Hi,

I have got the following problem: I would like use my own application to 
manage the headers in the e-mails that are being postet over my mailing 
list. My application saves txt file on my server and I would like 
mailman to load the content of that file and put it into the header.

Is there any way to do this?

best regards

M. Homziuk


From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
CC: mailman-users at python.org
To: Maciej Homziuk <maciej.homziuk at deutsche-versicherungsboerse.de>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:14:44 -0700
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] including text in msg_header from external files

 Maciej Homziuk wrote:
> 
> I have got the following problem: I would like use my own application to 
> manage the headers in the e-mails that are being postet over my mailing 
> list. My application saves txt file on my server and I would like 
> mailman to load the content of that file and put it into the header.
> 
> Is there any way to do this?

How dynamic is this content. If it doesn't change often, you could 
consider wrapping it between

msg_header = """

and

"""

So the whole file looks like

msg_header = """Line 1
Line 2
etc.
"""

and then run

bin/config_list -i /path/to/file listname

to update the list.

You could also modify Mailman/Handlers/Decorate.py to read the header 
from a file. To make it somewhat general, you could modify the 
decorate() function to look at the template argument and if it begins 
with a '/' consider it to be a path to a file containing the text. This 
would then work for messages and digests and headers and footers.

-- 
Mark Sapiro         The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From: Terri Oda <terri at zone12.com>
CC: mailman-users at python.org
To: aidan at wemail.info
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 21:43:59 -0400
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Renaming lists - how to change the list
 "real_name" afterwards

 On 18-Jul-08, at 12:52 PM, Aidan C A Hopkins wrote:
> Thanks very much - this did the trick, with one exception - the  
> archives
> are still bearing the old name. Presumably this just needs a  
> rebuild as
> mentioned somewhere in the FAQ which I used yesterday.
>
> Perhaps your instructions need adding to the FAQ?!

The wiki can be edited by anyone, so please go ahead and do that Aidan!

  Terri


From: Michael Welch <mwelch at redwoodalliance.org>
To: mailman-users at python.org
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:56:37 -0700
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] list archives

 

Mark Sapiro wrote at 10:14 AM 7/17/2008:
 
>>More importantly, how does one search the mailman archives looking
>>for all posts that contain particular text?
>
>
>See .

I was pleased to see that the DreamHost implementation of the Mailman archives includes htdig, which seems to be a nice little search facility. 

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org


From: Jens Meyer <jm2 at jensmeyer.de>
CC: mailman-users at python.org
To: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 09:29:54 +0200
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and virtual mailhosting (postfix)

 Dear Mark, hello all!

Thank you very much for your detailed reply to my request from June. 
Your help is greatly appreciated - but unfortunately I had no time to 
check this out until now due to work-overload and holidays.

My system accepts mails for listname at lists.myserver.de without problems. 
The only problem is that I can not use the internal redirection from 
mailman to listname at myserver.de without (internal) postfix-warnings 
because the domain myserver.de is used by the virtual mailhosting also 
(see my last post).

So one solution would be to "ask" mailman to redirect all emails not to 
listname at myserver.de but to listname at MAIL.myserver.de.

Do you think this is possible or is there another solution for my problem?

Kind regards,

       Jens

Mark Sapiro schrieb:
> Jens Meyer wrote:
>> Our postfix-mailserver hosts several domains (virtual mailhosting, 
>> postfix/mysql) and "mailman".
>>
>> The "primary domain" myserver.de is a virtualized domain also. So this 
>> domain is not listed in mydestination:
>> -->
>> myhostname = mail.myserver.de
>> mydomain   = myserver.de
>> myorigin   = $mydomain
>>
>> mydestination = $myhostname, localhost
>> <--
>>
>> As far as I understand mailman forwards all emails to the "primary 
>> domain" (mydomain) and mailman is only working if I add $mydomain to 
>> mydestination.
> 
> 
> This is the assumption of Mailman/Postfix integration.
> 
> 
>> But when doing this there are warnings from postfix that it is not 
>> allowed to list the domain in the virtual aliases (mysql-database) and 
>> in relay_domains.
>>
>> Is there any possiblity to configure mailman to forward the emails in 
>> ./data/virtual-mailman not to "testliste2 at myserver.de" but to 
>> "testliste2 at mail.myserver.de"?
>>
>> My actual config is:
>> -->
>> DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mail.myserver.de'
>> DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.myserver.de'
>> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'
>>
>> MTA = 'Postfix'
>> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['lists.myserver.de']
>> add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
>> <--
> 
> 
> I don't understand your configuration. The above Mailman config items
> say that lists.myserver.de is a postfix virtual domain and that
> Mailman lists whose host_name is lists.myserver.de will get
> virtual_mailman entries of the form
> 
> testliste2 at lists.myserver.de   testliste2
> 
> (i.e. map the virtual domain address 'testliste2 at lists.myserver.de' to
> local name 'testliste2' where it will be handled by the 'testliste2:'
> entry in aliases).  However, your setting of DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST =
> 'mail.myserver.de' says lists will be created with a host_name of
> 'mail.myserver.de', so no virtual_mailman entries will be created at
> all.
> 
> Something is clearly wrong. From your description, I think if you change
> 
> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['lists.myserver.de']
> 
> to
> 
> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['mail.myserver.de']
> 
> And run Mailman's bin/genaliases, you will get what you want. I.e., you
> will get virtual_mailman with entries like
> 
> testliste2 at mail.myserver.de   testliste2
> 
> which will map the virtual domain list address
> 'testliste2 at mail.myserver.de[' to the local name 'testliste2' which
> will be delivered to Mailman according to the 'testliste2' alias in
> Mailman's data/aliases.
> 


------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list
Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jul 19 19:29:23 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 10:29:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderation requests? - was: Mailman-Users
 Digest, Vol 53, Issue 48
In-Reply-To: <794106.24971.qm@web82203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <794106.24971.qm@web82203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48822473.8050706@msapiro.net>

t292f-misc2 at yahoo.com wrote:
> I am still asked to moderate requests even though moderation was
> turned off in Privacy > Sender.
> 
> Any suggestion?


The notice you receive and the held message in the admindb interface
tell you why the message was held. What is that reason?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jul 20 18:26:01 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:26:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderation requests? - was: Mailman-Users
 Digest, Vol 53, Issue 48
In-Reply-To: <747063.5132.qm@web82201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <747063.5132.qm@web82201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48836719.4060806@msapiro.net>

t292f-misc2 at yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> You asked about the reason.  Below is the reason.  Is there a setting
> I should change?
> 


> Reason:                               Post to moderated list


The poster's moderate flag is set.


> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote: t292f-misc2 at yahoo.com wrote:
>> I am still asked to moderate requests even though moderation was 
>> turned off in Privacy > Sender.


The default_member_moderation setting on Privacy options...->Sender 
Filters only affects whether or not new members have their moderate flag 
set as they subscribe.

If you don't want this member to be moderated, you can turn off this 
member's mod flag on the Membership Management...->Membership List page 
or turn off everyone's flag under "Additional Member Tasks" on that page.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From rprice at cs.uml.edu  Sun Jul 20 22:24:40 2008
From: rprice at cs.uml.edu (Roger Price)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 22:24:40 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message stuck in <list>.mbox after archive
	re-installation
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.1.10.0807202216030.9925@glacon2.rogerprice.org>

My apologies in advance for such a noob question.  I run mailman on 
opensuse and I've just upgraded to opensuse 11.0 which provides 
mailman 2.1.9, postfix 2.5.1 and apache2 2.2.8.

Before the upgrade, I saved the archives of my club's slow moving 
mailing list.  I ran

cp -a <mailman>/archives/private/club <safe-place>/archives/private/club
cp -a <mailman>/lists/club            <safe-place>/lists/club

based on the mv's in 
http://wiki.list.org/viewpage.action?pageId=4030617 . After the 
upgrade and reinstallation of mailman, I created a new list "club", 
and then installed the archives.

cp -a <safe-place>/archives/private/club <mailman>/archives/private/club 
cp -a <safe-place>/lists/club            <mailman>/lists/club

I checked permissions and ownership with bin/check-perms, restarted 
mailman and postfix, visited my list with a browser and found my 
membership list, and past messages.  Then I sent a small message to 
the list.  I received a copy but none of the list members received 
it.  It sits in <mailman>/archives/private/club.mbox/club.mbox and 
doesn't get distributed.

Following the advice in 
http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Troubleshooting-+No+mail+going+out+to+lists+members 
I checked that mailmanctl is indeed running. The following qrunner's 
are reported by ps aux :

  /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=ArchRunner:0:1 -s
  /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=BounceRunner:0:1 -s
  /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=CommandRunner:0:1 -s
  /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=IncomingRunner:0:1 -s
  /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=NewsRunner:0:1 -s
  /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s
  /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=VirginRunner:0:1 -s
  /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=RetryRunner:0:1 -s

Directory <mailman>/locks contains two files
  master-qrunner
  master-qrunner.glacon2.31638
where process 31638 is currently mailmanctl.

File mm_cfg.py contains SMTPHOST = "smtp.free.fr" which is correct 
for me.

File <mailman>/data/aliases contains a stanza of 10 lines for the 
"club" mailing list.  File /etc/postfix/main.cf contains

  alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases, hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases

Any hint for getting this hanging message out would be much 
appreciated.

Roger

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jul 20 23:09:38 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:09:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message stuck in <list>.mbox after
	archive	re-installation
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.1.10.0807202216030.9925@glacon2.rogerprice.org>
References: <alpine.LNX.1.10.0807202216030.9925@glacon2.rogerprice.org>
Message-ID: <4883A992.900@msapiro.net>

Roger Price wrote:
> 
> Before the upgrade, I saved the archives of my club's slow moving 
> mailing list.  I ran
> 
> cp -a <mailman>/archives/private/club <safe-place>/archives/private/club
> cp -a <mailman>/lists/club            <safe-place>/lists/club


But you neglected to back up <mailman>/archives/private/club.mbox


> based on the mv's in http://wiki.list.org/viewpage.action?pageId=4030617 
> . After the upgrade and reinstallation of mailman, I created a new list 
> "club", and then installed the archives.


You didn't need to create a 'new' list. Simply installing the lists/club 
directory does this.


> cp -a <safe-place>/archives/private/club <mailman>/archives/private/club 
> cp -a <safe-place>/lists/club            <mailman>/lists/club


So now you have the list and its pipermail archive, but you don't have 
the cumulative club.mbox/club.mbox file containing the archive as a mbox.


> I checked permissions and ownership with bin/check-perms, restarted 
> mailman and postfix, visited my list with a browser and found my 
> membership list, and past messages.  Then I sent a small message to the 
> list.  I received a copy but none of the list members received it.  It 
> sits in <mailman>/archives/private/club.mbox/club.mbox and doesn't get 
> distributed.


It got distributed or you wouldn't have received it. It also got 
archived which is why it's in 
<mailman>/archives/private/club.mbox/club.mbox which is an archive and 
has nothing to do with message delivery. All the past messages should be 
there too except you didn't back them up and restore them.


> Following the advice in 
> http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Troubleshooting-+No+mail+going+out+to+lists+members 
> I checked that mailmanctl is indeed running. The following qrunner's are 
> reported by ps aux :
> 
>  /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=ArchRunner:0:1 -s
>  /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=BounceRunner:0:1 -s
>  /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=CommandRunner:0:1 -s
>  /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=IncomingRunner:0:1 -s
>  /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=NewsRunner:0:1 -s
>  /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s
>  /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=VirginRunner:0:1 -s
>  /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=RetryRunner:0:1 -s
> 
> Directory <mailman>/locks contains two files
>  master-qrunner
>  master-qrunner.glacon2.31638
> where process 31638 is currently mailmanctl.
> 
> File mm_cfg.py contains SMTPHOST = "smtp.free.fr" which is correct for me.
> 
> File <mailman>/data/aliases contains a stanza of 10 lines for the "club" 
> mailing list.  File /etc/postfix/main.cf contains
> 
>  alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases, hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases
> 
> Any hint for getting this hanging message out would be much appreciated.

There may or may not be a 'hanging' message.

I'm only guessing, but I think the problem may be that mm_cfg.py 
contains SMTPHOST = "smtp.free.fr". If that is your local box, when you 
connect to smtp.free.fr instead of the default localhost, Postfix 
probably won't 'relay' the mail to other than local domains.

In any case, check Mailman's logs. In particular, bounce, smtp, 
smtp-failure and error. Also look in Mailman's out, retry and shunt queues.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From rprice at cs.uml.edu  Sun Jul 20 23:17:47 2008
From: rprice at cs.uml.edu (Roger Price)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:17:47 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman rpm in opensuse 11.0 clobbers postfix
	administration
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.1.10.0807202309170.9925@glacon2.rogerprice.org>

The installation of the mailman rpm included in opensuse 11.0 may 
lead to later problems with postfix administration.  This note 
explains how to avoid those problems.

The distribution opensuse 11.0 contain a package which installs 
mailman 2.1.9.  The package contains an essential README: 
/usr/share/doc/packages/mailman/README.SuSE which explains how to 
set up mailman.  Amongst the instructions is

3) Add /var/lib/mailman/data/aliases to the alias_maps statement in
    /etc/postfix/main.cf:
    alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases, ..., hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases
    and reload postfix.

If you do this, mailman will work, but any later modification to the 
postfix configuration via /etc/sysconfig/postfix will be rejected 
because main.cf is seen as "corrupted".  This can be a thorough 
nuisance.  A better way to specify alias_maps for mailman is to add

   # POSTFIX_ADD_*
   # You may add any existing postfix parameter here. Just execute the
   # postconf command to get a complete list. You then have to uppercase
   # the parameter and prepend POSTFIX_ADD_.
   POSTFIX_ADD_ALIAS_MAPS="hash:/etc/aliases, hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases"

to /etc/sysconfig/postfix and then run command

     SuSEconfig --module postfix

Use command postconf -n to check that alias_maps is correct.

Roger

From rprice at cs.uml.edu  Sun Jul 20 23:41:52 2008
From: rprice at cs.uml.edu (Roger Price)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:41:52 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message stuck in <list>.mbox after archive
 re-installation
In-Reply-To: <4883A992.900@msapiro.net>
References: <alpine.LNX.1.10.0807202216030.9925@glacon2.rogerprice.org>
	<4883A992.900@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.1.10.0807202319590.9925@glacon2.rogerprice.org>

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> But you neglected to back up <mailman>/archives/private/club.mbox

Aha! - a real n00b mistake. I wrongly assumed that club.mbox was 
transient incoming stuff.

> So now you have the list and its pipermail archive, but you don't have the 
> cumulative club.mbox/club.mbox file containing the archive as a mbox.

Luckily I made this mistake on a modest list with few members and 
little traffic.

>> Then I sent a small message to the list.
> It got distributed or you wouldn't have received it. It also got archived 
> which is why it's in <mailman>/archives/private/club.mbox/club.mbox which is 
> an archive and has nothing to do with message delivery. All the past messages 
> should be there too except you didn't back them up and restore them.

Ok, This is very helpful.

If a message goes out correctly, what does this look like in 
<mailman>/logs/smtp ?

Thanks again for the help,
Roger




From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 21 00:26:03 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:26:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message stuck in <list>.mbox after archive
 re-installation
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.1.10.0807202319590.9925@glacon2.rogerprice.org>
References: <alpine.LNX.1.10.0807202216030.9925@glacon2.rogerprice.org>	<4883A992.900@msapiro.net>
	<alpine.LNX.1.10.0807202319590.9925@glacon2.rogerprice.org>
Message-ID: <4883BB7B.40603@msapiro.net>

Roger Price wrote:
> 
> If a message goes out correctly, what does this look like in 
> <mailman>/logs/smtp ?

Something like:

Jul 19 23:14:14 2008 (9676) <message-id> smtp to <listname> for 208
recips, completed in 5.115 seconds

In this example, (9676) is the PID of OutgoingRunner and 208 is the
number of non-digest subscribers with delivery enabled minus those who
didn't get this message because of 'nodups' or 'not metoo'.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From spyropolymiadis at kromestudios.com  Mon Jul 21 07:35:29 2008
From: spyropolymiadis at kromestudios.com (Spyro Polymiadis)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:35:29 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Corret way of purging mail list archives
Message-ID: <C3485E1B172D0B4385CF1BB11242C5C22CD2B105A6@ms-exch2.kromestudios.com>

Hi all,

We "private" archive all our lists - and its come a time where we need to free space up on the volume that its archiving to..
My Question is, We've identified which lists we are able to purge archives from - and was just wondering whats the correct way to go about removing them from the system?
We have about 10 lists that have approx1.5-3gig in their listname folder/associated .mbox file

Cheers
Spyro

________________________________



This message and its attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information. This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you may not copy or deliver this message or its attachments to anyone. Rather, you should permanently delete this message and its attachments and kindly notify the sender by reply e-mail. Any content of this message and its attachments, which does not relate to the official business of the sending company must be taken not to have been sent or endorsed by the sending company or any of its related entities. No warranty is made that the e-mail or attachment(s) are free from computer virus or other defect.

From r.barrett at openinfo.co.uk  Mon Jul 21 09:00:03 2008
From: r.barrett at openinfo.co.uk (Richard Barrett)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:00:03 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Patches revised for MM 2.1.1
Message-ID: <75D1F93E-C6EB-4357-B866-63BFC0795B4A@openinfo.co.uk>

For anyone who used it, there is an error in the 2.1.11-0.1 version  
of my 820723 - Mailman/pipermail/MHonarc integration patch which was  
just published.

A revised 2.1.11-0.2 version of the patch replacing the faulty  
version is available at:

     http://www.openinfo.co.uk/mm/patches/mhonarc/ 
mhonarc-2.1.11-0.2.patch.gz

Apologies for any inconvenience caused by this error.

From james.cort at u4eatech.com  Mon Jul 21 11:48:15 2008
From: james.cort at u4eatech.com (James Cort)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:48:15 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Authorization required with Firefox 3: Packet
	capture attached
Message-ID: <48845B5F.4090909@u4eatech.com>

Dear All,

Apologies for the delay in replying; I think Mark's "go ahead" message 
got eaten by my spam filter.

The issue concerns Firefox 3 being unable to authenticate with Mailman 
successfully as per earlier email on the subject dated 4 July 2008, 
archived at:

    http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/msg50050.html


A packet capture taken from my PC is attached; it should open in 
Ethereal or Wireshark.

-- 
James Cort

IT Manager
U4EA Technologies Ltd.

-- 
U4EA Technologies
http://www.u4eatech.com

-------------- next part --------------
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Name: mailman_packet_capture.txt
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/attachments/20080721/9dbea48a/attachment-0001.txt>

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 21 18:34:10 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:34:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Authorization required with Firefox 3: Packet
 capture attached
In-Reply-To: <48845B5F.4090909@u4eatech.com>
References: <48845B5F.4090909@u4eatech.com>
Message-ID: <4884BA82.7030205@msapiro.net>

James Cort wrote:
> 
> The issue concerns Firefox 3 being unable to authenticate with Mailman 
> successfully as per earlier email on the subject dated 4 July 2008, 
> archived at:
> 
>    http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/msg50050.html
> 
> 
> A packet capture taken from my PC is attached; it should open in 
> Ethereal or Wireshark.


I've looked at the packet log. The packet of interest is number 6 which 
is the POST from the log in form. It looks OK to me. The question is 
whether the password being sent is actually correct. Look at the last 
portion of that packet which is:

Line-based text data: application/x-www-form-urlencoded
     adminpw=zzzzzzzzzzz&admlogin=Let+me+in...

(I have elided the actual password here). Is the password correct? In 
particular, is the final character preceding &admlogin=Let+me+in... 
actually part of the password or is the password only the first 10 
characters?

Also, see 
<https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1996767&group_id=103&atid=100103> 
for another report of this issue which was apparently a copy/paste 
issue. Are you pasting the password into the form or typing it?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From albanach at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 18:41:34 2008
From: albanach at gmail.com (Russell Horn)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:41:34 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users get email, but admin messages are not sent
Message-ID: <85aee1730807210941t7e005cadn5713e1257777f4@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I migrated my mailman installation to a new server. I had some initial
teething trouble updating the list URLs but that's taken care of.

All my lists work with regards to the web interface, adding/removing
members and sending posts to the list.

What does not work, however, is admin emails. Messages regarding
pending subscription requests, posts needing moderator approval etc,
they never even make it to postfix. The mailman smtp log doesn't show
anything other than list posts. The error log has no entries in the
past week, so nothing useful there that I can see.

/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py contains:

DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mail.mydomain.com'
MTA = 'Postfix'
POSTFIX_ALIAS_CMD = '/usr/sbin/postalias'
POSTFIX_MAP_CMD = '/usr/sbin/postmap'
DELIVERY_MODULE = 'SMTPDirect'
SMTPHOST = 'localhost'
SMTPPORT = '25'

I don't see any problems there.

Can anyone suggest any other reason that might be stopping my admin
messages from sending?

Thanks,

Russell

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 21 19:03:16 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:03:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users get email, but admin messages are not sent
In-Reply-To: <85aee1730807210941t7e005cadn5713e1257777f4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <85aee1730807210941t7e005cadn5713e1257777f4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4884C154.8020800@msapiro.net>

Russell Horn wrote:
> 
> What does not work, however, is admin emails. Messages regarding
> pending subscription requests, posts needing moderator approval etc,
> they never even make it to postfix. The mailman smtp log doesn't show
> anything other than list posts. The error log has no entries in the
> past week, so nothing useful there that I can see.
> 
> /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py contains:
> 
> DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mail.mydomain.com'


This probably has nothing to do with it, but if the above setting for 
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST is different from the one in Defaults.py, you should add

add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

to override the entry from Defaults.py


> MTA = 'Postfix'


The next five settings are all equivalent to the defaults. It's OK to 
have them in mm_cfg.py for documentation, but they aren't needed.


> POSTFIX_ALIAS_CMD = '/usr/sbin/postalias'
> POSTFIX_MAP_CMD = '/usr/sbin/postmap'
> DELIVERY_MODULE = 'SMTPDirect'
> SMTPHOST = 'localhost'
> SMTPPORT = '25'
> 
> I don't see any problems there.
> 
> Can anyone suggest any other reason that might be stopping my admin
> messages from sending?


What happens if you mail directly to the listname-owner address?

Do other Mailman generated notices get delivered - e.g. a subscription 
confirmation or a list welcome message?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From albanach at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 19:19:29 2008
From: albanach at gmail.com (Russell Horn)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:19:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users get email, but admin messages are not sent
In-Reply-To: <4884C154.8020800@msapiro.net>
References: <85aee1730807210941t7e005cadn5713e1257777f4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4884C154.8020800@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <85aee1730807211019r78c966c9tb1c0bb813a69fc28@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> This probably has nothing to do with it, but if the above setting for
> DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST is different from the one in Defaults.py, you should add
>
> add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
>

Updated that and restarted but no change.

>
> What happens if you mail directly to the listname-owner address?

That mail gets delivered normally. So aliases and postfix both seem okay.

>
> Do other Mailman generated notices get delivered - e.g. a subscription
> confirmation or a list welcome message?

Nope - anything that seems to be generated by mailman, other than the
list posts themselves, seems to vanish.

Thanks for your suggestions,

Russell.

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 21 19:25:50 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:25:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Corret way of purging mail list archives
In-Reply-To: <C3485E1B172D0B4385CF1BB11242C5C22CD2B105A6@ms-exch2.kromestudios.com>
References: <C3485E1B172D0B4385CF1BB11242C5C22CD2B105A6@ms-exch2.kromestudios.com>
Message-ID: <4884C69E.3040403@msapiro.net>

Spyro Polymiadis wrote:
> 
> We "private" archive all our lists - and its come a time where we
> need to free space up on the volume that its archiving to.. My
> Question is, We've identified which lists we are able to purge
> archives from - and was just wondering whats the correct way to go
> about removing them from the system? We have about 10 lists that have
> approx1.5-3gig in their listname folder/associated .mbox file


The answer depends on whether you want to delete the entire archive or 
just some of it, and if just some, whether you want to preserve the URLs 
of the remaining messages.

If you want to delete the entire archive, or you don't care about 
preserving URLs, the easiest way is to edit the 
archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox file to remove the messages 
you don't want and then run 'bin/arch --wipe listname' to remove the 
pipermail archive and rebuild it with only the messages (if any) 
remaining in the archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox file.

If you want to clear the pipermail archive, but keep all the messages in 
the archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox file, you can run 
'bin/arch --wipe listname /dev/null'.

If you just want to prune the pipermail archive, you can remove the 
periodic directories and .txt and .txt.gz files you don't want from 
archives/private/listname/, but this leaves broken links in the 
archives/private/listname/index.html file. You can edit them out, but 
they will return when the index is rebuilt.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 21 19:28:40 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:28:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users get email, but admin messages are not sent
In-Reply-To: <85aee1730807211019r78c966c9tb1c0bb813a69fc28@mail.gmail.com>
References: <85aee1730807210941t7e005cadn5713e1257777f4@mail.gmail.com>	<4884C154.8020800@msapiro.net>
	<85aee1730807211019r78c966c9tb1c0bb813a69fc28@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4884C748.1090305@msapiro.net>

Russell Horn wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> 
>> Do other Mailman generated notices get delivered - e.g. a subscription
>> confirmation or a list welcome message?
> 
> Nope - anything that seems to be generated by mailman, other than the
> list posts themselves, seems to vanish.


That suggests a problem with VirginRunner. Is it running? Are there 
entries in qfiles/virgin?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From albanach at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 20:00:08 2008
From: albanach at gmail.com (Russell Horn)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:00:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Users get email, but admin messages are not sent
In-Reply-To: <4884C748.1090305@msapiro.net>
References: <85aee1730807210941t7e005cadn5713e1257777f4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4884C154.8020800@msapiro.net>
	<85aee1730807211019r78c966c9tb1c0bb813a69fc28@mail.gmail.com>
	<4884C748.1090305@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <85aee1730807211100i54f9a0e5s61fc007412e39090@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>
> That suggests a problem with VirginRunner. Is it running? Are there entries
> in qfiles/virgin?

Bingo! Thanks!

There were indeed files there, and I'd missed the error in logs/qrunner

I cleared out the folder, restarted and all is well.

Thanks again!

Russell.

From docbook.xml at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 21:50:00 2008
From: docbook.xml at gmail.com (Ali, Saqib)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:50:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to address bounceback spam?
Message-ID: <addede3b0807211250w160c7cb7ua032afc398a6e7ad@mail.gmail.com>

bounceback spam is becoming a problem for me.

spammers use the some email random email addresses in the From/ReplyTo
field and spam my mailman subscription address @
fde-subscribe at www.xml-dev.com. This causes "unknown command"
bounceback to some innocent email user who never sent any emails to
fde-subscribe at www.xml-dev.com

how can I address this problem? The IP block owner for my servers
wants a resolution ASAP.

saqib
http://doctrina.wordpress.com/

From weweje at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 21:53:54 2008
From: weweje at gmail.com (weweje network)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:53:54 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] no email sent - need help
Message-ID: <d2905880807211253n5acefea5l360804c287fa1f67@mail.gmail.com>

Hello, list.
I'm kind of new to server admin, but not despaired ;)
I'm using mailman on CENTOS+PLESK
Everything is perfect except no mails are sent.
----------------------------
[root at xxx mailman]# /etc/init.d/mailman restart
Shutting down mailman:                                     [  OK  ]
Starting mailman:                                          [  OK  ]
------------------------------
mailman is running
------------------------------
 tail -f smtp-failure

Jul 21 21:27:51 2008 (10562) delivery to ggggggggg at gmail.com failed
with code -1: (-2, 'Name or service not known')
Jul 21 21:27:51 2008 (10562) Low level smtp error: (-2, 'Name or
service not known'), msgid:
<mailman.0.1216651288.19698.list at domain.tld[edited]>
---------------------------------
No documentation on that type of error
----------------------------------
Can someone suggest a path?
thanks

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 21 22:07:11 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:07:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] no email sent - need help
In-Reply-To: <d2905880807211253n5acefea5l360804c287fa1f67@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d2905880807211253n5acefea5l360804c287fa1f67@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4884EC6F.3010901@msapiro.net>

weweje network wrote:

>  tail -f smtp-failure
> 
> Jul 21 21:27:51 2008 (10562) delivery to ggggggggg at gmail.com failed
> with code -1: (-2, 'Name or service not known')
> Jul 21 21:27:51 2008 (10562) Low level smtp error: (-2, 'Name or
> service not known'), msgid:
> <mailman.0.1216651288.19698.list at domain.tld[edited]>
> ---------------------------------
> No documentation on that type of error
> ----------------------------------

See <http://wiki.list.org/x/AoE9> and <http://wiki.list.org/x/-IA9>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 21 22:14:35 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:14:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to address bounceback spam?
In-Reply-To: <addede3b0807211250w160c7cb7ua032afc398a6e7ad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <addede3b0807211250w160c7cb7ua032afc398a6e7ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4884EE2B.6020005@msapiro.net>

Ali, Saqib wrote:
> bounceback spam is becoming a problem for me.
> 
> spammers use the some email random email addresses in the From/ReplyTo
> field and spam my mailman subscription address @
> fde-subscribe at www.xml-dev.com. This causes "unknown command"
> bounceback to some innocent email user who never sent any emails to
> fde-subscribe at www.xml-dev.com
> 
> how can I address this problem? The IP block owner for my servers
> wants a resolution ASAP.


There was a long discussion of this on Mailman-Developers in March. See
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2008-March/thread.html>.

In short, the way to address this is to disable the -subscribe, -join,
-request, -unsubscribe, -leave and perhaps other email addresses (remove
teir aliases so they are undeliverable), and require the users to
subscribe/unsubscribe/confirm/etc. via the web.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From docbook.xml at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 22:29:16 2008
From: docbook.xml at gmail.com (Ali, Saqib)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:29:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to address bounceback spam?
In-Reply-To: <4884EE2B.6020005@msapiro.net>
References: <addede3b0807211250w160c7cb7ua032afc398a6e7ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<4884EE2B.6020005@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <addede3b0807211329r1a80b101obd37f7b507c0429d@mail.gmail.com>

> In short, the way to address this is to disable the -subscribe, -join,
> -request, -unsubscribe, -leave and perhaps other email addresses (remove
> teir aliases so they are undeliverable), and require the users to
> subscribe/unsubscribe/confirm/etc. via the web.

This will be very crippling for my users who primarily use to the
email to subscribe or unsubscribe.

Is there a way to  disable bounceback responses on "unrecognized command"

saqib
http://doctrina.wordpress.com/

From weweje at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 22:47:14 2008
From: weweje at gmail.com (weweje network)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:47:14 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] no email sent - need help
In-Reply-To: <4884EC6F.3010901@msapiro.net>
References: <d2905880807211253n5acefea5l360804c287fa1f67@mail.gmail.com>
	<4884EC6F.3010901@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <d2905880807211347y9f810cfj489d0bff4da3f3ba@mail.gmail.com>

I've solved my issue with your help + upgrade of mailman version.

Thanks a LOT

2008/7/21 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
> weweje network wrote:
>
>>  tail -f smtp-failure
>>
>> Jul 21 21:27:51 2008 (10562) delivery to ggggggggg at gmail.com failed
>> with code -1: (-2, 'Name or service not known')
>> Jul 21 21:27:51 2008 (10562) Low level smtp error: (-2, 'Name or
>> service not known'), msgid:
>> <mailman.0.1216651288.19698.list at domain.tld[edited]>
>> ---------------------------------
>> No documentation on that type of error
>> ----------------------------------
>
> See <http://wiki.list.org/x/AoE9> and <http://wiki.list.org/x/-IA9>
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 22 02:36:54 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 17:36:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to address bounceback spam?
In-Reply-To: <addede3b0807211329r1a80b101obd37f7b507c0429d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <addede3b0807211250w160c7cb7ua032afc398a6e7ad@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4884EE2B.6020005@msapiro.net>
	<addede3b0807211329r1a80b101obd37f7b507c0429d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48852BA6.1040104@msapiro.net>

Ali, Saqib wrote:
>> In short, the way to address this is to disable the -subscribe, -join,
>> -request, -unsubscribe, -leave and perhaps other email addresses (remove
>> teir aliases so they are undeliverable), and require the users to
>> subscribe/unsubscribe/confirm/etc. via the web.
> 
> This will be very crippling for my users who primarily use to the
> email to subscribe or unsubscribe.


Actually, any mail sent to the -subscribe or the -join address is a 
valid subscribe request and as long as subscribe_policy includes 
'confirm' will result in a subscription confirmation to the (forged) 
From: address.

Only mail to the -request or -confirm addresses produces 'unrecognized 
command' or 'invalid confirmation' responses.


> Is there a way to  disable bounceback responses on "unrecognized command"

This will be addressed in Mailman 2.2, but currently, only by modifying 
code in Mailman/Queue/CommandRunner.py and/or the various 
Mailman/Commands/cmd_*.py modules.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From bizzebee_xp at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 22 04:19:03 2008
From: bizzebee_xp at yahoo.com (xp xp)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:19:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] went live - big mistake - please help
Message-ID: <520843.90042.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Hello,
I went big including hundreds of my members with mailman. THought everything was working, but not so.
By default -automatic bounce processing is enabled and I found that it had checked 'nomail' [B] for several members eventhough they had a valid email ID Setting was at5.0.
Then from admin interface I changed to 'mailman automatic procesing - No". Also unchecked all the members who had 'nomail' [B]. This should rectify all users to get mails again.
Unfortunately, when a new message was sent to listserv, some of my users didn't get it again.
Can somebody help me please?
drb


      

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 22 04:38:33 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:38:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] went live - big mistake - please help
In-Reply-To: <520843.90042.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <520843.90042.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48854829.9040108@msapiro.net>

xp xp wrote:

> I went big including hundreds of my members with mailman. THought
> everything was working, but not so. By default -automatic bounce
> processing is enabled and I found that it had checked 'nomail' [B]
> for several members eventhough they had a valid email ID Setting was
> at5.0. Then from admin interface I changed to 'mailman automatic
> procesing - No". Also unchecked all the members who had 'nomail' [B].
> This should rectify all users to get mails again. Unfortunately, when
> a new message was sent to listserv, some of my users didn't get it
> again. Can somebody help me please? drb

The mail to those members is bouncing. Turning off automated bounce 
processing isn't going to change that. It's just going to cause Mailman 
to ignore the bounces.

Look in Mailman's smtp-failure log to see if there is some problem 
showing there. If not, set bounce_processing to Yes and 
bounce_notify_owner_on_disable to Yes so you will see the actual bounce 
notices to see why they are bouncing.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From javiabd at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 22 04:50:30 2008
From: javiabd at yahoo.com (Abdul Javid)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:50:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate copies
Message-ID: <861591.33352.qm@web63703.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Hi
?
Am using mailman for 6 months now, no issues
?
recently for last 3 weeks, messages are being sent two time to list members
?
Is there any place i can look to figure this out
?
if i send a email to list , 2 copies same mail go, and if one replies, 2 copies come in my inbox
?
please advise if any one noticed this behaviour
?
thanks in advance
?
Abdul


      

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 22 05:16:41 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:16:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate copies
In-Reply-To: <861591.33352.qm@web63703.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <861591.33352.qm@web63703.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48855119.6060501@msapiro.net>

Abdul Javid wrote:
> 
> recently for last 3 weeks, messages are being sent two time to list
> members
> 
> Is there any place i can look to figure this out
> 
> if i send a email to list , 2 copies same mail go, and if one
> replies, 2 copies come in my inbox


You can look at the Received: headers of the two copies you receive to
see where they diverge which will indicate where the duplication occurred.

You can also look in Mailman's archives and post and smtp logs to see if
there is any duplication in any of those places.

It is very unlikely that Mailman itself is duplicating the messages,
although Mailman may be involved via interaction with the incoming or
outgoing MTA.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From james.cort at u4eatech.com  Tue Jul 22 09:38:14 2008
From: james.cort at u4eatech.com (James Cort)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:38:14 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Authorization required with Firefox 3: Packet
 capture attached
In-Reply-To: <4884BA82.7030205@msapiro.net>
References: <48845B5F.4090909@u4eatech.com> <4884BA82.7030205@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <48858E66.8070604@u4eatech.com>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> James Cort wrote:
>>
> Line-based text data: application/x-www-form-urlencoded
>     adminpw=zzzzzzzzzzz&admlogin=Let+me+in...
> 
> (I have elided the actual password here). Is the password correct? In 
> particular, is the final character preceding &admlogin=Let+me+in... 
> actually part of the password or is the password only the first 10 
> characters?
> 
> Also, see 
> <https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1996767&group_id=103&atid=100103> 
> for another report of this issue which was apparently a copy/paste 
> issue. Are you pasting the password into the form or typing it?
> 

It's not the correct password any more, because I've changed it.  But 
looking at the link, yes I think you're right.  Though most of those 
details hadn't been added when I first looked a few weeks ago ;)

Sorry for wasting your time.


James.

-- 
James Cort

IT Manager
U4EA Technologies Ltd.

-- 
U4EA Technologies
http://www.u4eatech.com


From Christian.Lehrmann at ptb.de  Tue Jul 22 10:01:06 2008
From: Christian.Lehrmann at ptb.de (Christian.Lehrmann at ptb.de)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:01:06 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] =?iso-8859-1?q?Christian_Lehrmann/PTB_ist_au=DFer?=
	=?iso-8859-1?q?_Haus=2E?=
Message-ID: <OF232CECA0.E8FE8E6C-ONC125748E.002C0BEA-C125748E.002C0BEA@ptb.de>


Ich werde ab Di, 07/22/2008 nicht im B?ro sein. Ich kehre zur?ck am Fr,
08/01/2008.

Ich werde Ihre Nachricht nach meiner R?ckkehr beantworten.

Mit freundlichen Gr??en Christian Lehrmann

****************************************************************************

Dr.-Ing. Christian Lehrmann
AG 3.72
Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt
Bundesallee 100
38116 Braunschweig
Tel: 0531-592-3533
Fax: 0531-59269-3533
eMail Privat: Christian.Lehrmann at gmxpro.de
****************************************************************************


From bizzebee_xp at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 22 14:08:04 2008
From: bizzebee_xp at yahoo.com (xp xp)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:08:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] went live - big mistake - please help
Message-ID: <4738.41009.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Hello Mark,
Could you please let me know how to access smtp-log?
So the mailman will bounce if it can't send email to a valid email ID? how many attempts will it take before it quits?
I saw the email in the archives, but I cannot see who got it. Is there a feature where mailman can show which users got an email?
please help.
drb



----- Original Message ----
From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
To: xp xp <bizzebee_xp at yahoo.com>
Cc: mailman-users at python.org
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 11:38:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] went live - big mistake - please help

xp xp wrote:

> I went big including hundreds of my members with mailman. THought
> everything was working, but not so. By default -automatic bounce
> processing is enabled and I found that it had checked 'nomail' [B]
> for several members eventhough they had a valid email ID Setting was
> at5.0. Then from admin interface I changed to 'mailman automatic
> procesing - No". Also unchecked all the members who had 'nomail' [B].
> This should rectify all users to get mails again. Unfortunately, when
> a new message was sent to listserv, some of my users didn't get it
> again. Can somebody help me please? drb

The mail to those members is bouncing. Turning off automated bounce 
processing isn't going to change that. It's just going to cause Mailman 
to ignore the bounces.

Look in Mailman's smtp-failure log to see if there is some problem 
showing there. If not, set bounce_processing to Yes and 
bounce_notify_owner_on_disable to Yes so you will see the actual bounce 
notices to see why they are bouncing.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>? ? ? ? The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California? ? better use your sense - B. Dylan



      

From b19141 at anl.gov  Tue Jul 22 16:29:16 2008
From: b19141 at anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:29:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] went live - big mistake - please help
In-Reply-To: Mail from 'xp xp <bizzebee_xp@yahoo.com>'
	dated: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:08:04 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <20080722142916.6AFCD17554@britaine.cis.anl.gov>

drb wrote:

>Hello Mark,
>Could you please let me know how to access smtp-log?
>So the mailman will bounce if it can't send email to a valid email ID?
>how many attempts will it take before it quits?  I saw the email in the
>archives, but I cannot see who got it. Is there a feature where mailman
>can show which users got an email?  please help.

On my Ubuntu 2.1.9 system Mailman puts its logs in

    /var/log/mailman

With respect to "can't send email to a valid email ID", it depends
upon the nature of the error.  If the e-mail address is valid, and
everything is correct, then the mail will be sent the first time, and
there will be no bounces.  If the e-mail address is incorrect, the
receiving mail system will bounce the mail, and Mailman will not
retry.  If the SMTP (RFC 2821) dialog with the remote mailer
results in a 400-level return code, then the mail will be retried.
If the SMTP dialog results in a 500-level return code, then a retry
will not occur.

I believe that Mailman relies on a Mail Transfer Agent (MTA),
for example, Postfix, to do its mail delivery,  It is the MTA that
handles the retry.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994


From amarques at geocom.com.uy  Tue Jul 22 17:05:44 2008
From: amarques at geocom.com.uy (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Adri=E1n_M=E1rques?=)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:05:44 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restricting subscribers
Message-ID: <4885F748.2090903@geocom.com.uy>

Hello there,

I'm new to mailman, trying to set up a few lists and would like to 
restrict subscribers to those with email addresses from a particular 
domain, for example, only addresses of the form <user>@foodomain.com.
I've seen that a moderator can accept subscribers, but can the filter 
described above be automated?

I'd highly appreciate any responses on this; I've looked around but 
couldn't find anything.

Thanks in advance.

Regards.

Adri?n.



From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 22 17:26:35 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:26:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] went live - big mistake - please help
In-Reply-To: <4738.41009.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <4738.41009.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4885FC2B.1090007@msapiro.net>

xp xp wrote:
> Hello Mark, Could you please let me know how to access smtp-log?


The logs are on the Mailman host. Several 'packaged' Mailman 
installations put them in /var/log/mailman/. The default location for 
GNU Mailman is /usr/local/mailman/logs/.

To access these logs, you need shell or perhaps ftp access to the 
server. If yours is a 'hosted' Mailman, you may not be able to access 
the logs.


> So
> the mailman will bounce if it can't send email to a valid email ID?
> how many attempts will it take before it quits? I saw the email in
> the archives, but I cannot see who got it. Is there a feature where
> mailman can show which users got an email? please help. drb


Mailman delivers mail via SMTP to an MTA, usually running on the same 
host. If an error occurs during SMTP to the MTA, it will be logged in 
Mailman's smtp-failure log. If it is a fatal (5xx status) error, it is 
treated as a hard bounce. If it is retryable (4xx status), Mailman will 
retry at 15 minute intervals for 5 days.

Most errors occurring during SMTP to the outgoing MTA are due to some 
kind of configuration problem between Mailman and the MTA. You have to 
see the log messages or the bounce notices to see what the errors are.

If Mailman and the MTA are configured appropriately, almost all bounces 
are returned by the MTA after acceptance of the original message. In 
this case, retries if any will be done by the MTA. Again, you need to 
see the bounce messages to see why the mail is undeliverable.

In Mailman, set bounce_processing to Yes; set 
bounce_notify_owner_on_disable to Yes, and temporarily at least, set 
bounce_score_threshold to 1.0. Then when mail to a member bounces, the 
member's delivery will be disabled immediately and the list owner will 
receive a notice (assuming it doesn't bounce too) containg the original 
bounce message which will help you see the problem.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 22 17:39:14 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:39:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restricting subscribers
In-Reply-To: <4885F748.2090903@geocom.com.uy>
References: <4885F748.2090903@geocom.com.uy>
Message-ID: <4885FF22.7030508@msapiro.net>

Adri?n M?rques wrote:
> 
> I'm new to mailman, trying to set up a few lists and would like to 
> restrict subscribers to those with email addresses from a particular 
> domain, for example, only addresses of the form <user>@foodomain.com.
> I've seen that a moderator can accept subscribers, but can the filter 
> described above be automated?


You could put a regular expression 
<http://docs.python.org/lib/re-syntax.html> in Privacy 
options...->Subscription rules->ban_list to ban any address not in the 
foodomain.com domain. Something like

^[^@]*@(?!foodomain\.com$)

or, if you want to also allow user at xxx.foodomain.com

^[^@]*@(?!(.*\.)?foodomain\.com$)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From brad at python.org  Tue Jul 22 19:00:47 2008
From: brad at python.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:00:47 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users]
 =?iso-8859-1?q?Christian_Lehrmann/PTB_ist_au=DFer?=
 =?iso-8859-1?q?_Haus=2E?=
In-Reply-To: <OF232CECA0.E8FE8E6C-ONC125748E.002C0BEA-C125748E.002C0BEA@ptb.de>
References: <OF232CECA0.E8FE8E6C-ONC125748E.002C0BEA-C125748E.002C0BEA@ptb.de>
Message-ID: <4886123F.4000506@python.org>

Christian.Lehrmann at ptb.de wrote:

> Ich werde ab Di, 07/22/2008 nicht im B?ro sein. Ich kehre zur?ck am Fr,
> 08/01/2008.
> 
> Ich werde Ihre Nachricht nach meiner R?ckkehr beantworten.
> 
> Mit freundlichen Gr??en Christian Lehrmann

This person is now set to be moderated and will not receive any more mail 
from the list.

When they come back, they can try to convince me that they won't ever make 
this mistake again.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at python.org>
Member of the Python.org Postmaster Team & Co-Moderator of the
mailman-users and mailman-developers mailing lists

From brad at shub-internet.org  Tue Jul 22 19:05:03 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:05:03 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] went live - big mistake - please help
In-Reply-To: <4738.41009.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <4738.41009.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4886133F.30608@shub-internet.org>

xp xp wrote:

> Could you please let me know how to access smtp-log?

You need privileged command-line access to the server where Mailman is
installed.  In other words, you need to be the site admin.  If you're not
the site admin, you need to talk to them and get them to help you.

> So the mailman will bounce if it can't send email to a valid email ID?

Yup.

> how many attempts will it take before it quits?

Mailman will continue to try to deliver the message to your MTA for days, 
but how long and how often it will retry will be controlled by your 
configuration in the mm_cfg.py file and what gets pulled in or over-ridden 
from the Defaults.py file.  Again, if you're not the site admin, you're not 
going to be able to see any of these things.

Once the message is handed over to the MTA, then these things are controlled 
by your MTA configuration.  Again, if you're not the site admin, you're not 
going to have access to this kind of information.

>                                                 I saw the email in the
> archives, but I cannot see who got it. Is there a feature where mailman
> can show which users got an email?

The Mailman logs will show which users it has delivered to at the MTA level, 
and if there are any bounces that Mailman gets back from the MTA that will 
also show up in the Mailman logs.

But all of these are only accessible by the site admin.  If you're not the 
site admin, then you will need to get their help.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From maickel.pandie at gmail.com  Wed Jul 23 09:20:20 2008
From: maickel.pandie at gmail.com (Maickel Pandie)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:20:20 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailing list server transaction history
Message-ID: <6a215fbe0807230020oa3620cejf1062ccec9797c3d@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Friend...

I have some research about mailman... I changed Mailman scheduling policy
form FIFO to size based. To analyzed it I need transaction history from
mailing list server that already running in the internet. I don't need
detail transaction history of your server because that is your company
secret, I just need how many email that your mailing list server received in
one day and also the size. Maybe like this:
250 email around 12 kB
10 email around 5 MB
7 email around 10 MB

Please, Help me
Thanks

From roberto.gherardi at gmail.com  Wed Jul 23 17:28:22 2008
From: roberto.gherardi at gmail.com (Roberto Gherardi)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:28:22 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] bounce question
Message-ID: <584954160807230828ud96dea0h4a76d351a0493709@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I have a question


the engine bounce updates by hand only when it recognizes the mistakes?


thank's

From jm2 at jensmeyer.de  Wed Jul 23 17:33:35 2008
From: jm2 at jensmeyer.de (Jens Meyer)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:33:35 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and virtual mailhosting (postfix)
In-Reply-To: <4881FC77.6090101@msapiro.net>
References: <PC18702008061311245804531481f37f@msapiro>
	<488197F2.60205@jensmeyer.de> <4881FC77.6090101@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <48874F4F.4030703@jensmeyer.de>

Hello Mark,

thank you for your further reply.

The problem are not the virtual hostnames or the "advertisements" of the 
listnames.
My problem is the internal handling:

Is it possible to change Mailman's internal usage (target for internal 
redirections) from @hostname.com to @mail.hostname.com (because 
@hostname.com is used for virtual emails on this server actually).

Kind regards,

      Jens

Mark Sapiro schrieb:
> Jens Meyer wrote:
>>
>> My system accepts mails for listname at lists.myserver.de without 
>> problems. The only problem is that I can not use the internal 
>> redirection from mailman to listname at myserver.de without (internal) 
>> postfix-warnings because the domain myserver.de is used by the virtual 
>> mailhosting also (see my last post).
>>
>> So one solution would be to "ask" mailman to redirect all emails not 
>> to listname at myserver.de but to listname at MAIL.myserver.de.
> 
> 
> I don't think I understand what you want to do. If you want the Mailman 
> list to 'advertise' itself as listname at MAIL.myserver.de, all you need to 
> do is change the list's host_name attribute on the General Options admin 
> page to mail.myserver.de if it isn't already.
> 
> If what you are asking is for Mailman to create virtual alias map 
> entries for Postfix of the form
> 
> listname at mail.myserver.de   listname
> ...
> 
> You need to set
> 
> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['mail.myserver.de']
> 
> in mm_cfg.py instead of what you have, and then run Mailman's 
> bin/genaliases to generate Mailman's data/virtual-mailman* files with 
> the appropriate entries. You also need to reference this file in 
> Postfix's virtual_alias_maps.
> 
> This is what I tried to say below.
> 
> 
>> Mark Sapiro schrieb:
>>> Jens Meyer wrote:
>>>> Our postfix-mailserver hosts several domains (virtual mailhosting, 
>>>> postfix/mysql) and "mailman".
>>>>
>>>> The "primary domain" myserver.de is a virtualized domain also. So 
>>>> this domain is not listed in mydestination:
>>>> -->
>>>> myhostname = mail.myserver.de
>>>> mydomain   = myserver.de
>>>> myorigin   = $mydomain
>>>>
>>>> mydestination = $myhostname, localhost
>>>> <--
>>>>
>>>> As far as I understand mailman forwards all emails to the "primary 
>>>> domain" (mydomain) and mailman is only working if I add $mydomain to 
>>>> mydestination.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is the assumption of Mailman/Postfix integration.
>>>
>>>
>>>> But when doing this there are warnings from postfix that it is not 
>>>> allowed to list the domain in the virtual aliases (mysql-database) 
>>>> and in relay_domains.
>>>>
>>>> Is there any possiblity to configure mailman to forward the emails 
>>>> in ./data/virtual-mailman not to "testliste2 at myserver.de" but to 
>>>> "testliste2 at mail.myserver.de"?
>>>>
>>>> My actual config is:
>>>> -->
>>>> DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mail.myserver.de'
>>>> DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.myserver.de'
>>>> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'
>>>>
>>>> MTA = 'Postfix'
>>>> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['lists.myserver.de']
>>>> add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
>>>> <--
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't understand your configuration. The above Mailman config items
>>> say that lists.myserver.de is a postfix virtual domain and that
>>> Mailman lists whose host_name is lists.myserver.de will get
>>> virtual_mailman entries of the form
>>>
>>> testliste2 at lists.myserver.de   testliste2
>>>
>>> (i.e. map the virtual domain address 'testliste2 at lists.myserver.de' to
>>> local name 'testliste2' where it will be handled by the 'testliste2:'
>>> entry in aliases).  However, your setting of DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST =
>>> 'mail.myserver.de' says lists will be created with a host_name of
>>> 'mail.myserver.de', so no virtual_mailman entries will be created at
>>> all.
>>>
>>> Something is clearly wrong. From your description, I think if you change
>>>
>>> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['lists.myserver.de']
>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['mail.myserver.de']
>>>
>>> And run Mailman's bin/genaliases, you will get what you want. I.e., you
>>> will get virtual_mailman with entries like
>>>
>>> testliste2 at mail.myserver.de   testliste2
>>>
>>> which will map the virtual domain list address
>>> 'testliste2 at mail.myserver.de[' to the local name 'testliste2' which
>>> will be delivered to Mailman according to the 'testliste2' alias in
>>> Mailman's data/aliases.
>>>
> 
> 


From VGunville at aarp.org  Wed Jul 23 17:41:53 2008
From: VGunville at aarp.org (Gunville, Vincent)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:41:53 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MailMan Pending Requests not being removed.
Message-ID: <2D24B19869EA02499DB734C715E3E4270146DE7A@ms02dc.na.aarp.int>

Mailman running on RHEL4  version 2.1.5

 

Problem.  Daily email from cron lists 26000 pending requests.

You go into the GUI and there are like 10.  Clear the 10, and the GUI
lists no more pending requests.

Have run check_db and check_perms.  No errors produced.

Nothing other than normal messages in the logs.

Interesting thing is that if you run the cron job that produces the
pending requests email by hand... it lists the correct number.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

Thanks, 

 

Vincent

 


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 23 18:24:59 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:24:59 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and virtual mailhosting (postfix)
In-Reply-To: <48874F4F.4030703@jensmeyer.de>
References: <PC18702008061311245804531481f37f@msapiro>
	<488197F2.60205@jensmeyer.de> <4881FC77.6090101@msapiro.net>
	<48874F4F.4030703@jensmeyer.de>
Message-ID: <48875B5B.6030708@msapiro.net>

Jens Meyer wrote:
> Hello Mark,
> 
> thank you for your further reply.
> 
> The problem are not the virtual hostnames or the "advertisements" of
> the listnames. My problem is the internal handling:
> 
> Is it possible to change Mailman's internal usage (target for
> internal redirections) from @hostname.com to @mail.hostname.com
> (because @hostname.com is used for virtual emails on this server
> actually).

I do not understand your question. I think you do not understand 
Mailman's processing.

Internally, Mailman uses only the list name. Mailman doesn't do 
'internal redirections'

For incoming mail, the MTA handles mail according to its configuration, 
but ultimately, for mail destined to Mailman, pipes the mail to 
Mailman's wrapper to be posted to a list via a pipe like 
"|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post listname". Only the listname is 
involved at this point. No domain is involved.

If you want mail to 'listname at hostname.com' to be handled as though it 
were addressed to 'listname at mail.hostname.com' you have to do that in 
Postfix, but I don't think that is your issue.

Answer these questions:

How do you want list mail to be addressed? I.e., to list@ what domain?

Is this domain a virtual domain in Postfix?

I think the answers are mail to list at hostname.com (not 
list at mail.hostnamecom), and yes, hostname.com is a virtual domain in 
Postfix.

If this is correct, you want something like

DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'hostname.com'
DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.hostname.com'
DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'

MTA = 'Postfix'
POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['hostname.com']
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

in mm_cfg.py, and in your Postfix configuration

alias_maps = ...  hash:/path/to/mailman/data/aliases

and

virtual_alias_domains = ... hostname.com

and

virtual_alias_maps = ... hash:/path/to/mailman/data/virtual-mailman

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 23 18:31:50 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:31:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MailMan Pending Requests not being removed.
In-Reply-To: <2D24B19869EA02499DB734C715E3E4270146DE7A@ms02dc.na.aarp.int>
References: <2D24B19869EA02499DB734C715E3E4270146DE7A@ms02dc.na.aarp.int>
Message-ID: <48875CF6.2040005@msapiro.net>

Gunville, Vincent wrote:
> 
> Problem.  Daily email from cron lists 26000 pending requests.
> 
> You go into the GUI and there are like 10.  Clear the 10, and the GUI
> lists no more pending requests.
> 
<snip>
> 
> Interesting thing is that if you run the cron job that produces the
> pending requests email by hand... it lists the correct number.


So, the cron that is sending you the 26000 requests message is a 
different one for a different (old, test, demo, whatever) Mailman 
installation.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 23 18:48:43 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:48:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] bounce question
In-Reply-To: <584954160807230828ud96dea0h4a76d351a0493709@mail.gmail.com>
References: <584954160807230828ud96dea0h4a76d351a0493709@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <488760EB.1050806@msapiro.net>

Roberto Gherardi wrote:
> 
> I have a question
> 
> 
> the engine bounce updates by hand only when it recognizes the mistakes?


I'm trying to understand your question. Perhaps this will help.

Mailman sends mail with envelope from, Sender: and Errors-To: equal to 
the listname-bounces address. Except in the case of really broken MTAs, 
bounces will be returned to this address.

If the list's bounce_processing is set to No, mail to this address is 
ignored.

If the list's bounce_processing is set to Yes, an attempt is made to 
recognize any messages to the listname-bounces address. If they are 
recognized as 'non-fatal' they are ignored. If they are recognized as 
fatal and the bouncing address is a list member, a bounce is scored for 
the member. If the address is not a member, the message is ignored.

If the message is not recognized, and the list's 
bounce_unrecognized_goes_to_list_owner is Yes, the message is forwarded 
to the list owner. if the list's bounce_unrecognized_goes_to_list_owner 
is No, the message is discarded.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From VGunville at aarp.org  Wed Jul 23 18:51:04 2008
From: VGunville at aarp.org (Gunville, Vincent)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:51:04 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MailMan Pending Requests not being removed.
In-Reply-To: <48875CF6.2040005@msapiro.net>
References: <2D24B19869EA02499DB734C715E3E4270146DE7A@ms02dc.na.aarp.int>
	<48875CF6.2040005@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <2D24B19869EA02499DB734C715E3E4270146DE85@ms02dc.na.aarp.int>

Cron is saying that there are 26000 pending requests.
But when you go into the gui there are 10, or however many come in that
day.
Most of them are junk, so you remove them.

The next day cron sends and email saying there are 26010 requests.

This is happening for only one list.
The rest of the lists are working fine.


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark at msapiro.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 12:32 PM
To: Gunville, Vincent
Cc: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] MailMan Pending Requests not being removed.

Gunville, Vincent wrote:
> 
> Problem.  Daily email from cron lists 26000 pending requests.
> 
> You go into the GUI and there are like 10.  Clear the 10, and the GUI
> lists no more pending requests.
> 
<snip>
> 
> Interesting thing is that if you run the cron job that produces the
> pending requests email by hand... it lists the correct number.


So, the cron that is sending you the 26000 requests message is a 
different one for a different (old, test, demo, whatever) Mailman 
installation.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From terri at zone12.com  Wed Jul 23 19:01:29 2008
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:01:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-Developers] GNU Mailman Site Redesign
In-Reply-To: <4873D008.5060303@msapiro.net>
References: <42a95f60803102010i47ea00ft4af82f46b4cdf1e8@mail.gmail.com>	<901387E0-D87B-427F-9C6A-1018D8B0F42B@list.org>	<94C0A1E3-9222-4D6E-B0B5-10EA5157E81C@zone12.com>	<CA6DB778-1771-46BC-8B0F-6271451E3378@zone12.com>	<A43750FC-0F4D-4195-92A0-AB0F7B2E91BE@list.org>
	<AFDD1E43-3D6F-469F-ACD1-F7AB2603C736@zone12.com>
	<4873D008.5060303@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <C3256857-7BA6-42C9-A9A8-9537ABA0A5B7@zone12.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I've done a bit more work with the site redesign, and updated the  
working content I had.

The latest version is here:

http://terri.zone12.com/mm-website/

So, that's using some red/pink from the logo as link colours as  
someone suggested to me.  It looks fine to me on this macbook, but  
I'm at the Ottawa Linux Symposium and don't have my usual array of  
desktops to test from, so someone please let me know if it's  
unreadable.  (I've cc'ed mailman-users to get more eyes.)

Here's one wit the same idea, using darker reds:
http://terri.zone12.com/mm-website/?css=mailman-dark

And the original two, both beige and gray are here:
http://terri.zone12.com/mm-website/?css=mailman-orig
http://terri.zone12.com/mm-website/?css=mailman-alt

More suggestions welcome!

  Terri
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin)

iD8DBQFIh2PpnB1cG1wafMARAth3AJ9S3tMKRa7L6GkAE3RM5M5QOclC+gCdHocX
mDAbF8GrYVygAg6uzfUmooE=
=fz4P
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From brad at python.org  Wed Jul 23 19:22:46 2008
From: brad at python.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:22:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-Developers] GNU Mailman Site Redesign
In-Reply-To: <C3256857-7BA6-42C9-A9A8-9537ABA0A5B7@zone12.com>
References: <42a95f60803102010i47ea00ft4af82f46b4cdf1e8@mail.gmail.com>	<901387E0-D87B-427F-9C6A-1018D8B0F42B@list.org>	<94C0A1E3-9222-4D6E-B0B5-10EA5157E81C@zone12.com>	<CA6DB778-1771-46BC-8B0F-6271451E3378@zone12.com>	<A43750FC-0F4D-4195-92A0-AB0F7B2E91BE@list.org>	<AFDD1E43-3D6F-469F-ACD1-F7AB2603C736@zone12.com>	<4873D008.5060303@msapiro.net>
	<C3256857-7BA6-42C9-A9A8-9537ABA0A5B7@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <488768E6.3010109@python.org>

Terri Oda wrote:

> The latest version is here:
> 
> http://terri.zone12.com/mm-website/
> 
> So, that's using some red/pink from the logo as link colours as someone 
> suggested to me.

I really don't want anyone over-riding my own choices for link colors.

> More suggestions welcome!

Did you want to mention the official Mailman group on LinkedIn?  Of course, 
I can't figure out how to give you a link that will take you to their page 
for the group as opposed to the "home page" that I defined for the group 
(namely www.list.org), but that may be something we can resolve.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at python.org>
Member of the Python.org Postmaster Team & Co-Moderator of the
mailman-users and mailman-developers mailing lists

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 23 19:45:12 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:45:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MailMan Pending Requests not being removed.
In-Reply-To: <2D24B19869EA02499DB734C715E3E4270146DE85@ms02dc.na.aarp.int>
References: <2D24B19869EA02499DB734C715E3E4270146DE7A@ms02dc.na.aarp.int>
	<48875CF6.2040005@msapiro.net>
	<2D24B19869EA02499DB734C715E3E4270146DE85@ms02dc.na.aarp.int>
Message-ID: <48876E28.10207@msapiro.net>

Gunville, Vincent wrote:
> Cron is saying that there are 26000 pending requests.
> But when you go into the gui there are 10, or however many come in that
> day.
> Most of them are junk, so you remove them.
> 
> The next day cron sends and email saying there are 26010 requests.
> 
> This is happening for only one list.
> The rest of the lists are working fine.


This problem comes up on the Mailman-Users list from time to time, and 
in every case for which a resolution is reported, the notice is coming 
from a different Mailman instance.

It may be that you have a unique stiuation. The fact that the number 
increments is certainly unusual but my guess is still a parallel 
installation that may also be receiving posts to this list.

Check the Received: headers in the notice to see at what host it 
originates. Then as root on that host, do

find / -name checkdbs -print
find / -name request.pck -print

To see if you can find where these messages are coming from.

You could try to move the lists/<listname>/request.pck file aside for 
this list in case there is some possible corruption there that's causing 
this. It's OK to just move it aside. It will be recreated.

I really doubt that there is any problem with this request.pck. If there 
were, it would show up when you run cron/checkdbs by hand.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From terri at zone12.com  Wed Jul 23 21:07:08 2008
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 15:07:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-Developers] GNU Mailman Site Redesign
In-Reply-To: <488768E6.3010109@python.org>
References: <42a95f60803102010i47ea00ft4af82f46b4cdf1e8@mail.gmail.com>	<901387E0-D87B-427F-9C6A-1018D8B0F42B@list.org>	<94C0A1E3-9222-4D6E-B0B5-10EA5157E81C@zone12.com>	<CA6DB778-1771-46BC-8B0F-6271451E3378@zone12.com>	<A43750FC-0F4D-4195-92A0-AB0F7B2E91BE@list.org>	<AFDD1E43-3D6F-469F-ACD1-F7AB2603C736@zone12.com>	<4873D008.5060303@msapiro.net>
	<C3256857-7BA6-42C9-A9A8-9537ABA0A5B7@zone12.com>
	<488768E6.3010109@python.org>
Message-ID: <610816DF-33F8-4409-8BDB-12B4B3B57456@zone12.com>

On 23-Jul-08, at 1:22 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
>> The latest version is here:
>> http://terri.zone12.com/mm-website/
>> So, that's using some red/pink from the logo as link colours as  
>> someone suggested to me.
> I really don't want anyone over-riding my own choices for link colors.

The original version I had used the standard link colours (ie - it  
didn't set them), and comments ranged from just general malaise about  
the colour scheme of the links to several people who asserted it was  
nearly unreadable on their setups.  So I'll take the comment under  
advisement, but I suspect you're going to be in the minority.

Since I've since changed the original css, here's the current stuff  
with no link colours specified (so they default to your browser  
settings):

http://terri.zone12.com/mm-website/?css=mailman-nolink

> Did you want to mention the official Mailman group on LinkedIn?  Of  
> course, I can't figure out how to give you a link that will take  
> you to their page for the group as opposed to the "home page" that  
> I defined for the group (namely www.list.org), but that may be  
> something we can resolve.

Seems like a good fit for the "Participate" page!  I've put it just  
under the wiki entry.

Also, if I can convince launchpad and my laptop to get along, I'll  
share the code for this.  It's currently generating the pages using a  
little python script.  Although honestly, given that there's only 7  
pages here, I think we might as well generate them once and just  
serve up the straight HTML.

  Terri


From brad at shub-internet.org  Wed Jul 23 21:46:36 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:46:36 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-Developers] GNU Mailman Site Redesign
In-Reply-To: <610816DF-33F8-4409-8BDB-12B4B3B57456@zone12.com>
References: <42a95f60803102010i47ea00ft4af82f46b4cdf1e8@mail.gmail.com>	<901387E0-D87B-427F-9C6A-1018D8B0F42B@list.org>	<94C0A1E3-9222-4D6E-B0B5-10EA5157E81C@zone12.com>	<CA6DB778-1771-46BC-8B0F-6271451E3378@zone12.com>	<A43750FC-0F4D-4195-92A0-AB0F7B2E91BE@list.org>	<AFDD1E43-3D6F-469F-ACD1-F7AB2603C736@zone12.com>	<4873D008.5060303@msapiro.net>	<C3256857-7BA6-42C9-A9A8-9537ABA0A5B7@zone12.com>	<488768E6.3010109@python.org>
	<610816DF-33F8-4409-8BDB-12B4B3B57456@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <48878A9C.3090808@shub-internet.org>

Terri Oda wrote:

> The original version I had used the standard link colours (ie - it 
> didn't set them), and comments ranged from just general malaise about 
> the colour scheme of the links to several people who asserted it was 
> nearly unreadable on their setups.

That implies their client is misconfigured and that should be their problem 
and not ours.  Right?

>                                     So I'll take the comment under 
> advisement, but I suspect you're going to be in the minority.

I would urge caution about paying too much attention to a vocal minority, to 
the potential detriment of the majority who aren't complaining.

Now, if this was being driven by 508 compliance for accessibility and there 
simply were no other viable options, it would be more difficult for me to 
have grounds for a complaint.  But so far I haven't heard terms like that.

> Since I've since changed the original css, here's the current stuff with 
> no link colours specified (so they default to your browser settings):
> 
> http://terri.zone12.com/mm-website/?css=mailman-nolink

IMO, that looks much better.

>> Did you want to mention the official Mailman group on LinkedIn?  Of 
>> course, I can't figure out how to give you a link that will take you 
>> to their page for the group as opposed to the "home page" that I 
>> defined for the group (namely www.list.org), but that may be something 
>> we can resolve.
> 
> Seems like a good fit for the "Participate" page!  I've put it just 
> under the wiki entry.

Cool.  Thanks!

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp  Wed Jul 23 22:50:18 2008
From: turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 05:50:18 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-Developers] GNU Mailman Site Redesign
In-Reply-To: <48878A9C.3090808@shub-internet.org>
References: <42a95f60803102010i47ea00ft4af82f46b4cdf1e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<901387E0-D87B-427F-9C6A-1018D8B0F42B@list.org>
	<94C0A1E3-9222-4D6E-B0B5-10EA5157E81C@zone12.com>
	<CA6DB778-1771-46BC-8B0F-6271451E3378@zone12.com>
	<A43750FC-0F4D-4195-92A0-AB0F7B2E91BE@list.org>
	<AFDD1E43-3D6F-469F-ACD1-F7AB2603C736@zone12.com>
	<4873D008.5060303@msapiro.net>
	<C3256857-7BA6-42C9-A9A8-9537ABA0A5B7@zone12.com>
	<488768E6.3010109@python.org>
	<610816DF-33F8-4409-8BDB-12B4B3B57456@zone12.com>
	<48878A9C.3090808@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <87myk8fhpx.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brad Knowles writes:

 > That implies their client is misconfigured and that should be their problem 
 > and not ours.  Right?

Actually, all existing clients are pretty much broken, since they
don't allow you to enforce your own CSS.  But I guess they figure that
nearly all existing users are broken, 'cause they can't write their
own CSS ....  :-(  Grrr.


From nitin.bhadauria at tetrain.com  Thu Jul 24 08:46:25 2008
From: nitin.bhadauria at tetrain.com (Nitin Bhadauria)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:16:25 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to remove pending moderator requests from the
 list from command prompt
Message-ID: <3934.61.17.118.235.1216881985.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>

Hello frnds

I am tring to remove the pending moderator requests from a list but when i
click on the 'Tend to pending moderator requests' it ends on an error 500
internal server error..

So i want to remove the pending mails from the server ......


where can i find the mails and is it the right way to remove the pending
mails from the server .

From nitin.bhadauria at tetrain.com  Thu Jul 24 09:24:47 2008
From: nitin.bhadauria at tetrain.com (Nitin Bhadauria)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:54:47 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Fwd: how to remove pending moderator requests from
 the list from command prompt]
Message-ID: <4210.61.17.118.235.1216884287.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>

what if i remove heldmgs from /var/lib/mailman/data/ of the list like for
admin list i will remove all the mgs like..

heldmsg-admin-11088.pck  heldmsg-admin-5680.pck




---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to remove pending moderator requests from the
list from command prompt
From:    "Nitin Bhadauria" <nitin.bhadauria at tetrain.com>
Date:    Thu, July 24, 2008 12:16 pm
To:      mailman-users at python.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello frnds

I am tring to remove the pending moderator requests from a list but when i
click on the 'Tend to pending moderator requests' it ends on an error 500
internal server error..

So i want to remove the pending mails from the server ......


where can i find the mails and is it the right way to remove the pending
mails from the server .
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list
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http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
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Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe:
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Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9


From jm2 at jensmeyer.de  Thu Jul 24 10:37:30 2008
From: jm2 at jensmeyer.de (Jens Meyer)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:37:30 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and virtual mailhosting (postfix)
In-Reply-To: <48875B5B.6030708@msapiro.net>
References: <PC18702008061311245804531481f37f@msapiro>
	<488197F2.60205@jensmeyer.de> <4881FC77.6090101@msapiro.net>
	<48874F4F.4030703@jensmeyer.de> <48875B5B.6030708@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <48883F4A.9090309@jensmeyer.de>

Hello!

Thank you for your patient clarifications!

Yes, I understand: Internally Mailman uses only the listname. And the
domainname/hostname.

Perhaps another explanation is helpful (from postfix-side):

To get Mailman working the following configuration is needed actually:
myhostname = mail.myserver.de
mydomain   = myserver.de
mydestination       = $myhostname, $mydomain, localhost

But I want/need to change this to (working before without problems):
myhostname = mail.myserver.de
mydomain   = myserver.de
mydestination = $myhostname, localhost

because $mydomain is used by virtual mailsystem (postfix-warning: "Jul 
24 10:32:19 lovejoy postfix/trivial-rewrite[31288]: warning: do not list 
domain myserver.de in BOTH mydestination and virtual_mailbox_domains").

How can I avoid this warning (without removal of the other 
email-handling for myserver.de)?

Kind regards,

        Jens


Mark Sapiro schrieb:
> Jens Meyer wrote:
>> Hello Mark,
>>
>> thank you for your further reply.
>>
>> The problem are not the virtual hostnames or the "advertisements" of
>> the listnames. My problem is the internal handling:
>>
>> Is it possible to change Mailman's internal usage (target for
>> internal redirections) from @hostname.com to @mail.hostname.com
>> (because @hostname.com is used for virtual emails on this server
>> actually).
> 
> I do not understand your question. I think you do not understand 
> Mailman's processing.
> 
> Internally, Mailman uses only the list name. Mailman doesn't do 
> 'internal redirections'
> 
> For incoming mail, the MTA handles mail according to its configuration, 
> but ultimately, for mail destined to Mailman, pipes the mail to 
> Mailman's wrapper to be posted to a list via a pipe like 
> "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post listname". Only the listname is 
> involved at this point. No domain is involved.
> 
> If you want mail to 'listname at hostname.com' to be handled as though it 
> were addressed to 'listname at mail.hostname.com' you have to do that in 
> Postfix, but I don't think that is your issue.
> 
> Answer these questions:
> 
> How do you want list mail to be addressed? I.e., to list@ what domain?
> 
> Is this domain a virtual domain in Postfix?
> 
> I think the answers are mail to list at hostname.com (not 
> list at mail.hostnamecom), and yes, hostname.com is a virtual domain in 
> Postfix.
> 
> If this is correct, you want something like
> 
> DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'hostname.com'
> DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.hostname.com'
> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'
> 
> MTA = 'Postfix'
> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['hostname.com']
> add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
> 
> in mm_cfg.py, and in your Postfix configuration
> 
> alias_maps = ...  hash:/path/to/mailman/data/aliases
> 
> and
> 
> virtual_alias_domains = ... hostname.com
> 
> and
> 
> virtual_alias_maps = ... hash:/path/to/mailman/data/virtual-mailman
> 



From maickel.pandie at gmail.com  Thu Jul 24 15:24:51 2008
From: maickel.pandie at gmail.com (Maickel Pandie)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:24:51 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd:  Mailing list server transaction history
In-Reply-To: <4887D253.5020900@msapiro.net>
References: <6a215fbe0807230020oa3620cejf1062ccec9797c3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<4887D253.5020900@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <6a215fbe0807240624q483e1d85hefe93733605caf18@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you very much. I will post the result of the test if I already done.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Date: 2008/7/24
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailing list server transaction history
To: Maickel Pandie <maickel.pandie at gmail.com>


Maickel Pandie wrote:
>
> I have some research about mailman... I changed Mailman scheduling policy
> form FIFO to size based. To analyzed it I need transaction history from
> mailing list server that already running in the internet. I don't need
> detail transaction history of your server because that is your company
> secret, I just need how many email that your mailing list server received in
> one day and also the size. Maybe like this:
> 250 email around 12 kB
> 10 email around 5 MB
> 7 email around 10 MB


Here is some data from the postfix entries in my maillog files. This
table lists every message that was delivered by Postfix to Mailman for
posting to a list. The table in in the form

Date
   list name
       post size in bytes
       post size in bytes
       ...

It is sorted by date, list and size. These are posts delivered to
Mailman. The size of the post as sent to the list members may be
significantly smaller due to content filtering (typically less than
half this size due to removal of HTML from multipart/alternative). In
some cases, the post may have not been sent to the list members at
all.

If you want the data aggregated by size, you can do that as well as I.

Obviously, this server is not heavily used, but in case you are
interested anyway, here are the data.

Jun 22
   gpc-talk
       3951
       4317
       4388
       11124
       41514
       45257
       87916
   wed_ride
       3951
       4317
Jun 23
   gpc-talk
       1867
       2591
       3711
       3958
       4092
       4254
       5996
       8849
       9777
   gpc-test
       1305
       1307
       1317
   wed_ride
       2591
Jun 24
   gpc-talk
       1160
       1776
       2199
       2490
       2568
       2837
       3021
       3069
       3412
       5142
       6828
       8958
       11389
       24608
   wed_ride
       11428
Jun 25
   gpc-talk
       1681
       1758
       1843
       2473
       2655
       3633
       3996
       4695
       5491
       7561
       7970
Jun 26
   gpc-talk
       1151
       1764
       2699
       4916
       6869
Jun 27
   gpc-talk
       1893
       2350
       2424
       2458
       2899
       3984
       4347
       4755
       5616
       6076
       6103
       6143
       8319
       10384
       92961
       93042
Jun 28
   gpc-talk
       1367
       1589
       2130
       2615
       2620
       2755
       3568
       3877
       5513
       5617
Jun 29
   gpc-talk
       1274
       2209
       2486
       2495
       2770
       2862
       2947
       4174
       4210
       4751
       5115
       6302
       8774
       12774
Jun 30
   gpc-talk
       1221
       2203
       2346
       2513
       2759
       2809
       2856
       3157
       3793
       4131
       4216
       4578
       6487
       10659
       1353192
   wed_ride
       2513
       10653
Jul  1
   gpc-talk
       2071
       2372
       2600
       2668
       2799
       2804
       3078
       3288
       4473
       4816
       4838
       5518
       6519
Jul  2
   gpc-talk
       1742
       2114
       2320
       2369
       2499
       2754
       3580
       4248
       5302
       13055
Jul  3
   century-announce
       4133
   gpc-talk
       1319
       1524
       3103
       4274
       4748
       5880
   gpc-tues
       3473
Jul  4
   gpc-talk
       2275
       2447
       2728
       2829
       3697
       4007
       5641
       5757
       6812
Jul  5
   gpc-talk
       1585
       2043
       2235
       2281
       5210
       12453
Jul  6
   gpc-talk
       1113
       1478
       1600
       1770
       1806
       1920
       1922
       2392
       3133
       3608
       10575
   wed_ride
       3317
Jul  7
   gpc-talk
       1832
       2032
       2238
       2526
       2888
       3009
       3450
       3838
       4363
       5317
       5766
       6293
       7385
       7397
       11507
       35698
Jul  8
   gpc-talk
       1353
       1907
       1972
       2273
       2819
       2949
       4243
       6236
       16691
Jul  9
   gpc-talk
       1749
       1860
       2014
       2064
       2708
       3650
       4111
       5299
Jul 10
   gpc-talk
       1542
       2649
       3336
       3445
       3468
       4790
       5555
       7727
       10525
Jul 11
   gpc-talk
       1419
       1519
       1742
       1822
       2108
       2392
       2393
       2541
       2568
       2606
       2711
       2889
       3278
       3351
       3352
       4501
       5184
       5211
       10714
   gpc-test
       1307
Jul 12
   gpc-talk
       1737
       1916
       2814
       3136
       3160
       5586
       7316
       9771
       13769
       22715
Jul 13
   gpc-talk
       1745
       1860
       1968
       2335
       2748
       4516
       12225
       14328
   wed_ride
       2341
Jul 14
   gpc-talk
       2096
       2208
       2209
       2221
       2476
       2983
       3368
       3546
       5405
       5852
       7655
       17473
   wed_ride
       1880
Jul 15
   gpc-century
       2910
   gpc-talk
       1937
       2324
       2429
       2458
       2526
       2623
       2876
       3601
       3906
       4027
       5559
       8037
       8141
       11633
       12422
       18444
   wed_ride
       1951
       2633
Jul 16
   gpc-talk
       1992
       2094
       2387
       2945
       2974
       3197
       3287
       3465
       3964
       3983
       4153
       4158
       4572
       4876
       5529
       5717
       6645
       8061
       8635
       12828
       13399
       13595
       15280
Jul 17
   gpc-talk
       1762
       1866
       2238
       2645
       2726
       2748
       2828
       2876
       3243
       3355
       3513
       3958
       3975
       3991
       4015
       4187
       4452
       4990
       5237
       6021
       6128
       6210
       7468
       9110
       11098
       12619
       13047
Jul 18
   gpc-talk
       1728
       1819
       1854
       1919
       2109
       2148
       2428
       2860
       3035
       3346
       3347
       3655
       3683
       3819
       4518
       5010
       5519
       6197
       7095
       7629
       8451
       8818
       9731
       9823
       15898
       17513
   wed_ride
       4223
Jul 19
   gpc-talk
       2479
       2732
       3770
       3970
       8937
Jul 20
   gpc-talk
       5559
       7445
Jul 21
   gpc-talk
       2236
   wed_ride
       3271
       8537
       17350
Jul 22
   gpc-talk
       980
       1615
       1636
       1941
       3493
       7424
Jul 23
   gpc-talk
       1932
       1978
       2004
       2187
       2596
       2981
       3280
       3352
       4359
       6654


--
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul 24 15:57:16 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:57:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Fwd: how to remove pending moderator requests
 from the list from command prompt]
In-Reply-To: <4210.61.17.118.235.1216884287.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>
References: <4210.61.17.118.235.1216884287.squirrel@mail.tetrain.com>
Message-ID: <48888A3C.5050709@msapiro.net>

Nitin Bhadauria wrote:
> what if i remove heldmgs from /var/lib/mailman/data/ of the list like for
> admin list i will remove all the mgs like..
> 
> heldmsg-admin-11088.pck  heldmsg-admin-5680.pck


See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/nIA9> for the proper way to do this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul 24 16:57:02 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:57:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and virtual mailhosting (postfix)
In-Reply-To: <48883F4A.9090309@jensmeyer.de>
References: <PC18702008061311245804531481f37f@msapiro>
	<488197F2.60205@jensmeyer.de> <4881FC77.6090101@msapiro.net>
	<48874F4F.4030703@jensmeyer.de> <48875B5B.6030708@msapiro.net>
	<48883F4A.9090309@jensmeyer.de>
Message-ID: <4888983E.4010803@msapiro.net>

Jens Meyer wrote:
> Hello!
> 
> Thank you for your patient clarifications!
> 
> Yes, I understand: Internally Mailman uses only the listname. And the
> domainname/hostname.
> 
> Perhaps another explanation is helpful (from postfix-side):
> 
> To get Mailman working the following configuration is needed actually:
> myhostname = mail.myserver.de
> mydomain   = myserver.de
> mydestination       = $myhostname, $mydomain, localhost
> 
> But I want/need to change this to (working before without problems):
> myhostname = mail.myserver.de
> mydomain   = myserver.de
> mydestination = $myhostname, localhost
> 
> because $mydomain is used by virtual mailsystem (postfix-warning: "Jul 
> 24 10:32:19 lovejoy postfix/trivial-rewrite[31288]: warning: do not list 
> domain myserver.de in BOTH mydestination and virtual_mailbox_domains").
> 
> How can I avoid this warning (without removal of the other 
> email-handling for myserver.de)?


I'm not certain how to do this because I don't know enough about Postfix.

The normal way to do this with Mailman-Postfix integration is to put the 
following in mm_cfg.py.

DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'myserver.de'
DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.myserver.de'
MTA = 'Postfix'
POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['myserver.de']
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

Then run fix_url to update the list(s). E.g.

bin/withlist -l -r fix_url listname

or

bin/withlist -l -a -r fix_url

for all lists. Or, if DEFAULT_URL_HOST isn't changed from when the lists 
were created, you can just change the host_name on the list's General 
Options page to myserver.de.

Then run Mailman's bin/genaliases.

This will create/update two files and their corresponding .db files in 
Mailman's data/ directory.

aliases(.db) will contain the list aliases of the form

list:        "|/path/to/mailman/mail/mailman post list"
list-admin:  "|/path/to/mailman/mail/mailman admin list"
...

with 10 aliases per list.

virtual-mailman(.db) will contain the virtual domain maps of the form

list at myserver.de         list
list-admin at myserver.de   list-admin
...

with 10 mappings per list.

Then in Postfix's main.cf you would do the following:

add hash:/path/to/mailman/data/aliases to the alias_maps list

add hash:/path/to/mailman/data/virtual-mailman to the virtual_alias_maps 
list

add myserver.de to the virtual_alias_domains list.

Then, for example, mail to list at myserver.de will be mapped via 
virtual_alias_maps to the local name 'lists' which is aliased to the 
pipe to Mailman.

The only problem with this is you already have myserver.de as a 
virtual_mailbox_domain. This complicates things bcause 
virtual_mailbox_maps maps to mailbox files or maildir directories, not 
to local names that can be aliased.

You might be able to make this work with Mailman's maildir delivery 
option, but you would have to modify Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py to generate 
the appropriate maps to use with Postfix.

There may be other ways to make this work in Postfix, but these are 
Postfix questions that I am unable to answer.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From MHeer at lbl.gov  Fri Jul 25 19:30:55 2008
From: MHeer at lbl.gov (Mark Heer)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:30:55 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] using moderation - admin not on mx
Message-ID: <f0b91b5310842.4889ab5f@lbl.gov>

Hello,

I am running 2 mail exchangers that handle the mailman list distribution and a third machine serves up the list administration web gui.  Trouble is that when a message is held for moderator approval, I click on the url mailman provides or go to the list admin page but it says 'There are no pending requests'.  I gahter that the message is being held on the mx machines as mailman expects the gui is on the mx right?  How can I fix this?  Can I send the message for approval to the admin machine, approve it, and send it back to mx somehow?

Another topic, Can mailman be configured such that list administrators can use their LDAP passwd for authentication?
I currently secure list archives in such a way.

Thank you,

Mark 

From b19141 at anl.gov  Fri Jul 25 19:52:06 2008
From: b19141 at anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:52:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] using moderation - admin not on mx
In-Reply-To: Mail from 'Mark Heer <MHeer@lbl.gov>'
	dated: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:30:55 -0700
Message-ID: <20080725175206.7AF3C174F9@britaine.cis.anl.gov>

Mark Heer <MHeer at lbl.gov> wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I am running 2 mail exchangers that handle the mailman list
>distribution and a third machine serves up the list administration web
>gui.  Trouble is that when a message is held for moderator approval, I
>click on the url mailman provides or go to the list admin page but it
>says 'There are no pending requests'.  I gahter that the message is
>being held on the mx machines as mailman expects the gui is on the mx
>right?  How can I fix this?  Can I send the message for approval to the
>admin machine, approve it, and send it back to mx somehow?
>
>Another topic, Can mailman be configured such that list administrators
>can use their LDAP passwd for authentication?  I currently secure list
>archives in such a way.

The problem with the "another topic" is this -- an administrator of
a Mailman list is ANYONE who knows the administrator password.  The
e-mail addresses of the administrators are there ONLY to provide 
addresses to which to send administrator e-mail (e.g., messages
awaiting admin/moderator approval).  We have list admins here who
try to use their Active Directory password to get to their list 
admin pages, and when it does not work they complain to me.
It seems to me that making the requested change would be a major change
to Mailman authentication.

About the first paragraph - I run Mailman on only one machine, so I
do not have this problem.  The web server runs on this one machine,
and the Mailman machine sends all of its outbound mail to one of our
central Mail Tranfer Agent mailers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994


From brad at shub-internet.org  Fri Jul 25 20:02:58 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:02:58 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] using moderation - admin not on mx
In-Reply-To: <f0b91b5310842.4889ab5f@lbl.gov>
References: <f0b91b5310842.4889ab5f@lbl.gov>
Message-ID: <488A1552.5050305@shub-internet.org>

Mark Heer wrote:

> I am running 2 mail exchangers that handle the mailman list distribution
> and a third machine serves up the list administration web gui.

The distribution part of this problem is just delivering the mail that has 
already gone through the mailing list server.  So, all admin work would be 
done on the mailing list server, and the list admins don't need to worry 
about anything else.

>                                                                  Trouble
> is that when a message is held for moderator approval, I click on the url
> mailman provides or go to the list admin page but it says 'There are no
> pending requests'.  I gahter that the message is being held on the mx
> machines as mailman expects the gui is on the mx right?

I'm not sure what you're calling an "mx machine".

As I would use this term, the message isn't going to get to the outbound 
mail relay until after it has been approved by a list moderator or list 
admin, and from there posted to the list and then distributed out to the 
recipients -- via the outbound mail relay.

>                                                          How can I fix
> this?  Can I send the message for approval to the admin machine, approve
> it, and send it back to mx somehow?

Sounds to me like you need to provide more information to us about your 
exact configuration.  Right now, we're just a bunch of blind men guessing 
about how an elephant might look, without ever having actually touched one 
or even just a part of one.

> Another topic, Can mailman be configured such that list administrators
> can use their LDAP passwd for authentication? I currently secure list
> archives in such a way.

I think that would require modification of the source code.  I'm not sure 
how much work that might be, but you could check the SourceForge patch list 
to see if anyone else has already done this and posted their patches.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Fri Jul 25 20:12:09 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:12:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] moderation rejection notices, etc.
Message-ID: <20080725181216.533EDFA18F@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>

Hi Friends. More newby questions, I am afraid.

1. Is there no capability to edit moderated messages? I have a couple of moderated members that have asked me to edit their messages, and I don't see how. (FYI, they tend to promote their own products within their otherwise extremely valuable posts).

2. When I reject a moderated message with an explanation, the rejection note comes from listname-bounces@ . So when the member replies to that message, it sends me a note saying that it received an unrecognized bounce, and buried in the note is the member's response.

Shouldn't rejected & annotated messages come from listname-admin@ instead? I bet there is a good reason for this that I do not know.

3. More of a comment than a question. Mailman archives do not perfectly allow importing Eudora mailboxes, even though they are a form of mbox-formatted mailboxes. Most messages seem to do fine but maybe (I am not sure) those few that do not import well have a blank line before Eudora's "From: ???@??? [date time]" header. Not sure if that is the cause, but it is possible.

4. Finally, I want to reiterate the desire for a web-based interface for responding to messages. I'd estimate that 5-10% of my list members used this feature when we were at Topica. I also would value a way for admins to remove individual messages from the archives through a web-based .

I understand that work on Mailman is done by a handful of dedicated volunteers, and I do appreciate the software and its robustness. I appreciate you folks that put so much time and energy into it and into helping us users.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org


From brad at shub-internet.org  Fri Jul 25 20:23:31 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:23:31 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] moderation rejection notices, etc.
In-Reply-To: <20080725181216.533EDFA18F@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>
References: <20080725181216.533EDFA18F@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <488A1A23.6020509@shub-internet.org>

Michael Welch wrote:

> 1. Is there no capability to edit moderated messages? I have a couple of
> moderated members that have asked me to edit their messages, and I don't
> see how. (FYI, they tend to promote their own products within their
> otherwise extremely valuable posts).

There is no real capability to edit moderated messages, no.  There is what I 
would classify as a work-around, described in FAQ 3.9 at 
<http://wiki.list.org/x/24A9>.

If you go to the Mailman FAQ landing page at 
<http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Frequently+Asked+Questions> and do a 
search on "edit moderated", this should be the second item that shows up on 
the list.

> 3. More of a comment than a question. Mailman archives do not perfectly
> allow importing Eudora mailboxes, even though they are a form of
> mbox-formatted mailboxes. Most messages seem to do fine but maybe (I am
> not sure) those few that do not import well have a blank line before
> Eudora's "From: ???@??? [date time]" header. Not sure if that is the
> cause, but it is possible.

Eudora mailboxes are not in proper 7th edition mbox format, so they cannot 
be imported directly.  You need to get that "???@???" crap fixed to be 
something reasonable before you can import them.

Why the hell Eudora decided to be so damn stupid as to use something that is 
almost-but-not-quite a proper mbox format I will never know, but then Eudora 
is dead so I guess the point is more or less moot.

> 4. Finally, I want to reiterate the desire for a web-based interface for
> responding to messages. I'd estimate that 5-10% of my list members used
> this feature when we were at Topica. I also would value a way for admins
> to remove individual messages from the archives through a web-based .
> 
> I understand that work on Mailman is done by a handful of dedicated
> volunteers, and I do appreciate the software and its robustness. I
> appreciate you folks that put so much time and energy into it and into
> helping us users.

These things are on the list, and may be addressed in Mailman3.  I don't 
know if we'll get a chance to look at them before then.

If you have code you can contribute to fix these issues, that would greatly 
speed up things between now and whenever a future version of Mailman3 might 
ship that may address them.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Sat Jul 26 00:11:35 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:11:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] moderation rejection notices, etc.
In-Reply-To: <488A1A23.6020509@shub-internet.org>
References: <20080725181216.533EDFA18F@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>
	<488A1A23.6020509@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <20080725221152.CBDEC121CB8@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>



Brad Knowles wrote at 11:23 AM 7/25/2008:
 
>Eudora mailboxes are not in proper 7th edition mbox format, so they cannot be imported directly.  You need to get that "???@???" crap fixed to be something reasonable before you can import them.

OK, maybe you can lead me to the specs for 7th edition mbox format.

But I think that if I can get a blank line in front of the "crap" that it may import OK. 

Or else maybe I have to move the From: header to the first line of the message, delete the Eudora "crap," and make sure there is a blank line before each message in the file. 

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org


From brad at shub-internet.org  Sat Jul 26 00:22:00 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:22:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] moderation rejection notices, etc.
In-Reply-To: <20080725221152.CBDEC121CB8@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>
References: <20080725181216.533EDFA18F@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>	<488A1A23.6020509@shub-internet.org>
	<20080725221152.CBDEC121CB8@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <488A5208.9060807@shub-internet.org>

Michael Welch wrote:

> OK, maybe you can lead me to the specs for 7th edition mbox format.

Formal specs?  No.  But you can see the page at 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbox> for an informal discussion of the subject.

> But I think that if I can get a blank line in front of the "crap" that it
> may import OK.

A blank line isn't going to help.  You need to replace the "???@???" crap 
with the appropriate information.  In fact, what needs to go there should be 
the contents of the "Return-Path:" header, just without the angle brackets.

> Or else maybe I have to move the From: header to the first line of the
> message, delete the Eudora "crap," and make sure there is a blank line
> before each message in the file.

No, you can't delete the "From_" line, because that is the only delimiter 
that is used to separate one message from the next.

Before you start mucking about with this, I would encourage you to read up 
on what Eudora screwed up, so that you'll have a better idea of what you 
need to fix.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Sat Jul 26 00:26:00 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:26:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] moderation rejection notices, etc.
In-Reply-To: <488A5208.9060807@shub-internet.org>
References: <20080725181216.533EDFA18F@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>	<488A1A23.6020509@shub-internet.org>
	<20080725221152.CBDEC121CB8@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>
	<488A5208.9060807@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <488A52F8.2030906@shub-internet.org>

Brad Knowles wrote:

> Formal specs?  No.  But you can see the page at 
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbox> for an informal discussion of the 
> subject.

Note that this page links to another page at 
<http://homepages.tesco.net/~J.deBoynePollard/FGA/mail-mbox-formats.html> 
that actually has a more detailed discussion of the formats and issues in 
question, along with specific comments along the lines of:

	X means Y but it doesn't mean Z no matter how much you
	might otherwise think it would

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jul 26 17:31:09 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:31:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] moderation rejection notices, etc.
In-Reply-To: <20080725181216.533EDFA18F@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807260831090875df62c6f4@Notebook>

Michael Welch wrote:
> 
> 2. When I reject a moderated message with an explanation, the
> rejection note comes from listname-bounces@ . So when the member
> replies to that message, it sends me a note saying that it received
> an unrecognized bounce, and buried in the note is the member's
> response.
> 
> Shouldn't rejected & annotated messages come from listname-admin@
> instead? I bet there is a good reason for this that I do not know.


Brad has already responded to 1., 3. and 4. As far as 2. is concerned,
you raise a good point, although you mean the messages should be From:
listname-owner at .... listname-admin at ... is actually a deprecated
synonym for listname-bounces at ...

I don't think there is a good reason for the reject to come from
listname-bounces at .... 

This came about in the implementation of automated bounce processing in
Mailman 2.1. Prior to 2.1, the list owner address was
listname-admin at .... This address was also used as the envelope sender
of messages so bounces would return to the list owner for attention.
With automated bounce processing, the envelope sender was changed to
listname-bounces at ..., and the listname-admin at ..., was deprecated in
favor of listname-owner at ... and processed the same as
listname-bounces at ....


At that point, the processing of refusal messages was changed. The
intent was that replies go to the owner. In fact the log message for
the change says

  __refuse(): In the refuse.txt, use the -owner address as the
  %(adminaddr)s expansion so that when the human acts on this message,
  they'll contact a human without going through the bounce processor.

The actual change
<http://mailman.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/mailman?view=rev&revision=5019>
changed the address inserted into the text of the refusal to the
listname-owner at ... address, but it changed the From: to the
listname-bounces at ... address.

I think this was a mistake. I'm Ccing mailman-developers in case
someone remembers some reason for this, but barring objection, I'll
change it for the next release.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From LindsayClinard at ec.rr.com  Fri Jul 25 22:21:32 2008
From: LindsayClinard at ec.rr.com (LindsayClinard)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:21:32 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need some lists
Message-ID: <005601c8ee94$07e3cfc0$17ab6f40$@rr.com>

Hi,

 

I would like to request several listservs.  Below are the names of the lists
we need created.  Instead of sending them piecemeal we decided to wait until
we knew we had a good amount to send.

 

All the below will have uufwilmington.org after each one.

Music

Programs

SocialAction

Buildings&grounds  or Buildings/Grounds

Stewardship

SharedMinistry

Communications&Publicity  or Communications/Publicity

DenominationalAffairs

Finance

Fundraising

Membership

Nominating

Remembrance

SocialEvents&Hospitality   or  SocialEvents/Hospitality 

WorshipServices

QUEST

Childcare 

Interiors

Search

Personnel

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many thanks.  Feel free to contact me anytime.

 

Lindsay

 

Communications Team UUFWilmington

LindsayClinard at ec.rr.com

 


From jeffrey at goldmark.org  Sun Jul 27 03:22:24 2008
From: jeffrey at goldmark.org (Jeffrey Goldberg)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:22:24 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need some lists
In-Reply-To: <005601c8ee94$07e3cfc0$17ab6f40$@rr.com>
References: <005601c8ee94$07e3cfc0$17ab6f40$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <D440F3B6-F26F-48BB-AB95-658C3E0141A9@goldmark.org>

On Jul 25, 2008, at 3:21 PM, LindsayClinard wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I would like to request several listservs.  Below are the names of  
> the lists
> we need created.  Instead of sending them piecemeal we decided to  
> wait until
> we knew we had a good amount to send.
>
> All the below will have uufwilmington.org after each one.

I think that you have sent your request to the wrong place.  The mailman-users at python.org 
  mailing list that you sent this to is a discussion list about the  
mailman (mailing list management) software.  Most of the (hundreds?)  
of members of this list manage their own sites running mailman.

Normally, you would install the mailman system on one of your servers  
and then you could use it to set up your mailing lists.

The UU Church in Plano, Texas uses mailman and the people who run that  
would probably be able to advise you.  I don't happen to know them (I  
was on one of the lists for a short time).  So you might mail to

   webmaster at CommunityUUChurch.org

to ask to be in touch with the people who set up the mailing lists.

Best wishes,

-j


-- 
Jeffrey Goldberg                        http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/


From al_shopov at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 27 13:23:58 2008
From: al_shopov at yahoo.com (Alexander Shopov)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 04:23:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Receiving filtered commit messages via a Handler
Message-ID: <963444.26123.qm@web52105.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Hi guys,

I am the coordinator of the Bulgarian Gnome translation team. We have an
internal Mailman controlled list that we use for automatic notifications
via mail from internal staging VCS repositories and bug tracking
systems.

Currently I would like to add notifications from upstream vcs - KDE and
GNOME. Both projects have commit mailing lists that I will subscribe our
notification list to.

However the volume from upstream commit lists is really great and I need
to apply some filtering.

I made the following Handler:

-------------------------
import re
from Mailman import Errors

def process(mlist, msg, msgdata):

    message_text=msg.as_string()
    recepients = msg.get_all('To')

    # GNOME
    rGNOME=re.compile('/bg\\.po')
    aGnome='svn-commits-list at gnome.org'

    try:
        i = recepients.index(aGnome)
        # To GNOME, so check body
        if None==rGNOME.search(message_text):
            # Discard! Does not contain what we want
            raise Errors.DiscardMessage('GNOME commit - not bg translation')
    except ValueError:
        # OK - not GNOME svn
        pass

    # KDE
    rKDE=re.compile('/bg/(doc)?messages')
    aKDE='kde-commits at kde.org'
    
    try:
        i = recepients.index(aKDE)
        # To KDE, so check subject
        if None==rKDE.search(msg.get('subject')):
            # Discard! Does not contain what we want
            raise Errors.DiscardMessage('KDE commit - not bg translation')
    except ValueError:
        # OK - not KDE svn
        pass

-------------------------

Now comes the part I do not understand - how do I ensure that mailman will accept messages that were posted to the commit lists - they all have different 'From:' field (the identifier of the committer).
What can I do to ensure that commit messages via the upstream lists are accepted by may mailman instance?


Kind regards:
al_shopov


      

From relson at osagesoftware.com  Sun Jul 27 14:05:09 2008
From: relson at osagesoftware.com (David Relson)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:05:09 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with Underscores
Message-ID: <20080727080509.3616a192@osage.osagesoftware.com>

I'm running Mailman 2.1.8 and have encountered a problem with email
addresses starting with underscores. 

Using a python script to show list members, the first three members of
a list are: 

  6louisc at example.com
  _santasal at example.com
  a1bformk at example.com

Using mailman's admin interface, web page

  http://localhost/mailman/admin/mylist/members

has the following:

  219 members total, 1 shown
  [6] A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W Y Z

Note that the script shows a user whose name begins with an underscore
but the admin interface indicates names beginning with "6" and "A" but
none with "_".

Is there a patch that fixes this?  If not, I'll create one if
somebody can point me towards the admin module that determines the
"6ABC..." list above? 

Regards,

David

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jul 27 16:51:34 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 07:51:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Receiving filtered commit messages via a Handler
In-Reply-To: <963444.26123.qm@web52105.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807270751340062ee2d8420@Notebook>

Alexander Shopov wrote:
>
>Now comes the part I do not understand - how do I ensure that mailman will accept messages that were posted to the commit lists - they all have different 'From:' field (the identifier of the committer).
>What can I do to ensure that commit messages via the upstream lists are accepted by may mailman instance?


Put the handler in the pipeline before Moderate and set

    msgdata['approved'] = True

for those messages you want to accept.
     
-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jul 27 17:43:29 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:43:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with Underscores
In-Reply-To: <20080727080509.3616a192@osage.osagesoftware.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008072708432909063f40dda7@Notebook>

David Relson wrote;

>I'm running Mailman 2.1.8 and have encountered a problem with email
>addresses starting with underscores. 
>
>Using a python script to show list members, the first three members of
>a list are: 
>
>  6louisc at example.com
>  _santasal at example.com
>  a1bformk at example.com
>
>Using mailman's admin interface, web page
>
>  http://localhost/mailman/admin/mylist/members
>
>has the following:
>
>  219 members total, 1 shown
>  [6] A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W Y Z
>
>Note that the script shows a user whose name begins with an underscore
>but the admin interface indicates names beginning with "6" and "A" but
>none with "_".
>
>Is there a patch that fixes this?  If not, I'll create one if
>somebody can point me towards the admin module that determines the
>"6ABC..." list above? 



Thanks for the report. This bug still exists in 2.1.11. The following
patch is totally untested, but I think it will fix it for '_'. I'll
have to think about other non-alphanumeric characters. At least it
will point to the right place in the code.

Note that if you know there is an address with a leading '_', you can
display it with a find pattern of '^_', but this doesn't help if you
don't know. Also, if you didn't have the '6' address, the '_' address
would display on the default page.

Here's the patch:

--- Mailman/Cgi/admin.py        2007-05-08 03:16:04 +0000
+++ Mailman/Cgi/admin.py        2008-07-27 15:33:11 +0000
@@ -902,7 +902,7 @@
         if qsenviron:
             qs = cgi.parse_qs(qsenviron)
             bucket = qs.get('letter', 'a')[0].lower()
-            if bucket not in digits + lowercase:
+            if bucket not in digits + '_' + lowercase:
                 bucket = None
         if not bucket or not buckets.has_key(bucket):
             keys = buckets.keys()
@@ -942,7 +942,7 @@
     # Add the alphabetical links
     if bucket:
         cells = []
-        for letter in digits + lowercase:
+        for letter in digits + '_' + lowercase:
             if not buckets.get(letter):
                 continue
             url = adminurl + '/members?letter=%s' % letter


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 28 02:32:11 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 17:32:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with Underscores
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008072708432909063f40dda7@Notebook>
References: <PC18702008072708432909063f40dda7@Notebook>
Message-ID: <488D138B.2040104@msapiro.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Thanks for the report. This bug still exists in 2.1.11. The following
> patch is totally untested, but I think it will fix it for '_'. I'll
> have to think about other non-alphanumeric characters. At least it
> will point to the right place in the code.


Here's a better patch. It has been lightly tested, and will work for any 
non-alphanumeric characters.

--- Mailman/Cgi/admin.py        2007-05-08 03:16:04 +0000
+++ Mailman/Cgi/admin.py        2008-07-28 00:17:06 +0000
@@ -1,4 +1,4 @@
-# Copyright (C) 1998-2007 by the Free Software Foundation, Inc.
+# Copyright (C) 1998-2008 by the Free Software Foundation, Inc.
  #
  # This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
  # modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
@@ -28,7 +28,6 @@
  import urllib
  import signal
  from types import *
-from string import lowercase, digits

  from email.Utils import unquote, parseaddr, formataddr

@@ -901,12 +900,10 @@
          qsenviron = os.environ.get('QUERY_STRING')
          if qsenviron:
              qs = cgi.parse_qs(qsenviron)
-            bucket = qs.get('letter', 'a')[0].lower()
-            if bucket not in digits + lowercase:
-                bucket = None
+            bucket = qs.get('letter', '0')[0].lower()
+        keys = buckets.keys()
+        keys.sort()
          if not bucket or not buckets.has_key(bucket):
-            keys = buckets.keys()
-            keys.sort()
              bucket = keys[0]
          members = buckets[bucket]
          action = adminurl + '/members?letter=%s' % bucket
@@ -942,7 +939,7 @@
      # Add the alphabetical links
      if bucket:
          cells = []
-        for letter in digits + lowercase:
+        for letter in keys:
              if not buckets.get(letter):
                  continue
              url = adminurl + '/members?letter=%s' % letter

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 28 03:36:09 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:36:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with Underscores
In-Reply-To: <488D138B.2040104@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807271836090937915dc0f2@Notebook>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the report. This bug still exists in 2.1.11. The following
>> patch is totally untested, but I think it will fix it for '_'. I'll
>> have to think about other non-alphanumeric characters. At least it
>> will point to the right place in the code.
>
>
>Here's a better patch. It has been lightly tested, and will work for any 
>non-alphanumeric characters.
>
>--- Mailman/Cgi/admin.py        2007-05-08 03:16:04 +0000
>+++ Mailman/Cgi/admin.py        2008-07-28 00:17:06 +0000
>@@ -1,4 +1,4 @@
>-# Copyright (C) 1998-2007 by the Free Software Foundation, Inc.
>+# Copyright (C) 1998-2008 by the Free Software Foundation, Inc.
>  #
>  # This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
>  # modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
<snip>

Somehow the indentation got garbled in the patch in the last post. The
lines without leading + or - are indented an extra space. This time I
have attached the patch as the file admin.patch.txt. The patch is the
same, but should be properly indented in the attachment.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: admin.patch.txt
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/attachments/20080727/b4285ab0/attachment.txt>

From maickel.pandie at gmail.com  Mon Jul 28 12:11:46 2008
From: maickel.pandie at gmail.com (Maickel Pandie)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:11:46 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How big message size>
Message-ID: <6a215fbe0807280311k4a1370der45bfe2c0d1761eb3@mail.gmail.com>

Hi friend, I have some question....

How big usually you set message size in your mailing list server? I
know the default is 40 KB but it's to small for user that want to
share some file

I'm affraid if I set message size to big it will cause some problem in
the other day.

Need Help please

From davidpiniella at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 28 16:28:24 2008
From: davidpiniella at yahoo.com (David Piniella)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:28:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] From: header rewrite?
Message-ID: <976247.3776.qm@web35703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'm looking to replace an ezmlm server with mailman and have installed mailman 2.1.9-7 on a debian server; lists work but I have a question:

Is there an easy way to rewrite the From: address field? I have a list that is used as announce-only and would like it to appear to come from a non-list address (e.g., list is jobs at lists.domain.tld and I would like the email to appear as from jobs at domain.tld). Reply-To: is good, but not what I'm looking for. The ezmlm analogue is creating a list using the -3 switch to rewrite the address.

I have googled, gone through the archives and FAQ and cannot find this info (perhaps I'm not searching for the right terms?) Any help would be appreciated, many thanks in advance.



      

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jul 28 16:45:53 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:45:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] From: header rewrite?
In-Reply-To: <976247.3776.qm@web35703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008072807455307503f40dd23@Notebook>

David Piniella wrote:

>I'm looking to replace an ezmlm server with mailman and have installed mailman 2.1.9-7 on a debian server; lists work but I have a question:
>
>Is there an easy way to rewrite the From: address field? I have a list that is used as announce-only and would like it to appear to come from a non-list address (e.g., list is jobs at lists.domain.tld and I would like the email to appear as from jobs at domain.tld). Reply-To: is good, but not what I'm looking for. The ezmlm analogue is creating a list using the -3 switch to rewrite the address.


I'm not sure what you're asking. If you want to know how to put the
list address in From:, set General Options->anonymous_list to Yes.

If you want to know how to change the domain of this address, put the
desired domain in General Options->host_name.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From davidpiniella at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 28 17:02:56 2008
From: davidpiniella at yahoo.com (David Piniella)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:02:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] From: header rewrite?
Message-ID: <48156.92501.qm@web35704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks for your reply, sorry if I was not clear, I'm specifically trying to not have the list address in the from address, nor the original sender's address
say my list is party-news at lists.sample.org and the mail comes from user sam at lists.sample.org, i'd like the From: field to be "Party News <partynews at sample.org>" instead of the list address or sam at lists.sample.org.

I tried anonymous_list, but that's not what I'm looking for.



----- Original Message ----
From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
To: David Piniella <davidpiniella at yahoo.com>; mailman-users at python.org
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 10:45:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] From: header rewrite?

David Piniella wrote:

>I'm looking to replace an ezmlm server with mailman and have installed mailman 2.1.9-7 on a debian server; lists work but I have a question:
>
>Is there an easy way to rewrite the From: address field? I have a list that is used as announce-only and would like it to appear to come from a non-list address (e.g., list is jobs at lists.domain.tld and I would like the email to appear as from jobs at domain.tld). Reply-To: is good, but not what I'm looking for. The ezmlm analogue is creating a list using the -3 switch to rewrite the address.


I'm not sure what you're asking. If you want to know how to put the
list address in From:, set General Options->anonymous_list to Yes.

If you want to know how to change the domain of this address, put the
desired domain in General Options->host_name.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


      

From tinker123 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 28 17:20:30 2008
From: tinker123 at gmail.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:20:30 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] General list information page
Message-ID: <171bb3f10807280820v1816ce71jc5f67a5fa3734a87@mail.gmail.com>

Hi;

I was editing the General list information page for my GNU Mailman
list.   I accidentally deleted some of the standard code.  Does anyone
know where I can get a template for the  General list information
page?

Thanks

From tinker123 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 28 17:33:21 2008
From: tinker123 at gmail.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:33:21 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] General List Info Page without https?
Message-ID: <171bb3f10807280833p60e0fba9jddc71f8745d5343a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi;

I have a mailing list in the latest version of GNU Mailman.   The URL
for the General Information page is httS:// and asks people to approve
going into an "insecure" site.   The person hosting my mailing list
understandably does not want to pay the $500 to get a secure
certificate.  This is a nonprofit thing he is doing out of his good
graces for free.

There is nothing being logged onto on this General Information page.
Is there something I can suggest to him so that httS:// doesn't have
to be used?

Thanks

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Mon Jul 28 17:38:06 2008
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:38:06 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] General List Info Page without https?
In-Reply-To: <171bb3f10807280833p60e0fba9jddc71f8745d5343a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <171bb3f10807280833p60e0fba9jddc71f8745d5343a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080728153806.GF7559@charite.de>

* Steve <tinker123 at gmail.com>:
> Hi;
> 
> I have a mailing list in the latest version of GNU Mailman.   The URL
> for the General Information page is httS:// and asks people to approve
> going into an "insecure" site.   The person hosting my mailing list
> understandably does not want to pay the $500 to get a secure
> certificate.  This is a nonprofit thing he is doing out of his good
> graces for free.
> 
> There is nothing being logged onto on this General Information page.
> Is there something I can suggest to him so that httS:// doesn't have
> to be used?

???
Just turn https: off. Mailman does NOT require HTTPS by default.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt (i.A. des IT-Zentrums)         Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de
Charite - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin            Tel.  +49 (0)30-450 570-155
Gemeinsame Einrichtung von FU- und HU-Berlin    Fax.  +49 (0)30-450 570-962
IT-Zentrum Standort CBF                 send no mail to snickebo at charite.de

From brad at shub-internet.org  Mon Jul 28 17:52:52 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:52:52 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How big message size>
In-Reply-To: <6a215fbe0807280311k4a1370der45bfe2c0d1761eb3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a215fbe0807280311k4a1370der45bfe2c0d1761eb3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <488DEB54.1050408@shub-internet.org>

Maickel Pandie wrote:

> Hi friend, I have some question....
> 
> How big usually you set message size in your mailing list server? I
> know the default is 40 KB but it's to small for user that want to
> share some file

Generally speaking, you shouldn't be sharing files by e-mail.

E-mail is not a File Transfer Protocol.  The File Transfer Protocol is the 
File Transfer Protocol.  HTTP can also work for this kind of function.

But neither of these protocols are involved in e-mail.

> I'm affraid if I set message size to big it will cause some problem in
> the other day.

Yup.  That's why you want these values set to be low, because when you 
multiple large attachments by hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of 
recipients, you start talking about gigatbytes and terabytes of storage 
required, and gigabytes and terabytes of data that has to be transmitted to 
all recipients.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Mon Jul 28 18:06:46 2008
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:06:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] From: header rewrite?
In-Reply-To: <976247.3776.qm@web35703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <976247.3776.qm@web35703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <488DEE96.3060306@shub-internet.org>

David Piniella wrote:

> Is there an easy way to rewrite the From: address field? I have a list
> that is used as announce-only and would like it to appear to come from a
> non-list address (e.g., list is jobs at lists.domain.tld and I would like
> the email to appear as from jobs at domain.tld). Reply-To: is good, but not
> what I'm looking for. The ezmlm analogue is creating a list using the -3
> switch to rewrite the address.

Sorry, I don't know ezmlm, and I don't know that anyone here does.

However, header rewrites of the sort you're talking about would seem to be 
more appropriate to be done in the MTA, not the mailing list manager.

In Sendmail, postfix, or Exim, it should be pretty easy to make these kinds 
of changes by changing your "masquerade" database to rewrite these kinds of 
addresses.

I have no idea how this concept might be applied to your MTA, however.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From cyndi at tikvah.com  Mon Jul 28 18:15:15 2008
From: cyndi at tikvah.com (Cyndi Norwitz)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:15:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How big message size>
In-Reply-To: <488DEB54.1050408@shub-internet.org> (message from Brad Knowles
	on Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:52:52 -0500)
References: <6a215fbe0807280311k4a1370der45bfe2c0d1761eb3@mail.gmail.com>
	<488DEB54.1050408@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <200807281615.m6SGFFJb027876@a.mail.sonic.net>

I always change it.  40KB keeps out some longer text-only posts.  I find
that 200KB pretty much lets in all the posts I'd like to go in but tosses
into moderation most attachments and full quotes of digests by clueless
users.  

On small lists where we are doing work that requires exchange of files, I
up it to 400KB or more so we can send the Word docs, graphics, etc as
needed. 

Cyndi


From davidpiniella at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 28 19:22:34 2008
From: davidpiniella at yahoo.com (David Piniella)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:22:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] From: header rewrite?
Message-ID: <107960.2912.qm@web35704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I mentioned ezmlm because I know how to do it there and figured that it might make what I wanted to do clearer. I'm using postfix on that box I think, I'll look into doing it via the MTA instead of the list software, thanks! 



----- Original Message ----
From: Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
To: David Piniella <davidpiniella at yahoo.com>
Cc: mailman-users at python.org
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 12:06:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] From: header rewrite?

David Piniella wrote:

> Is there an easy way to rewrite the From: address field? I have a list
> that is used as announce-only and would like it to appear to come from a
> non-list address (e.g., list is jobs at lists.domain.tld and I would like
> the email to appear as from jobs at domain.tld). Reply-To: is good, but not
> what I'm looking for. The ezmlm analogue is creating a list using the -3
> switch to rewrite the address.

Sorry, I don't know ezmlm, and I don't know that anyone here does.

However, header rewrites of the sort you're talking about would seem to be 
more appropriate to be done in the MTA, not the mailing list manager.

In Sendmail, postfix, or Exim, it should be pretty easy to make these kinds 
of changes by changing your "masquerade" database to rewrite these kinds of 
addresses.

I have no idea how this concept might be applied to your MTA, however.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>



      

From tinker123 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 28 19:35:03 2008
From: tinker123 at gmail.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:35:03 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd:  General List Info Page without https?
In-Reply-To: <171bb3f10807280845m5daeb5d0n549b40fe7dad47de@mail.gmail.com>
References: <171bb3f10807280833p60e0fba9jddc71f8745d5343a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080728153806.GF7559@charite.de>
	<171bb3f10807280845m5daeb5d0n549b40fe7dad47de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <171bb3f10807281035h14ece752i636886cf53695af5@mail.gmail.com>

Ralf;

Is this something I can do as a list owner or do I need to the host
where the mailman software is running to do it?   If so, how would he
do it?  I would like to tell him and minimize his work as he is
hosting my list for free.

Thanks again for taking your time out for this info



On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt
<Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de> wrote:
> * Steve <tinker123 at gmail.com>:
>> Hi;
>>
>> I have a mailing list in the latest version of GNU Mailman.   The URL
>> for the General Information page is httS:// and asks people to approve
>> going into an "insecure" site.   The person hosting my mailing list
>> understandably does not want to pay the $500 to get a secure
>> certificate.  This is a nonprofit thing he is doing out of his good
>> graces for free.
>>
>> There is nothing being logged onto on this General Information page.
>> Is there something I can suggest to him so that httS:// doesn't have
>> to be used?
>
> ???
> Just turn https: off. Mailman does NOT require HTTPS by default.
>
> --
> Ralf Hildebrandt (i.A. des IT-Zentrums)         Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de
> Charite - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin            Tel.  +49 (0)30-450 570-155
> Gemeinsame Einrichtung von FU- und HU-Berlin    Fax.  +49 (0)30-450 570-962
> IT-Zentrum Standort CBF                 send no mail to snickebo at charite.de
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/tinker123%40gmail.com
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Mon Jul 28 19:44:58 2008
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:44:58 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd:  General List Info Page without https?
In-Reply-To: <171bb3f10807281035h14ece752i636886cf53695af5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <171bb3f10807280833p60e0fba9jddc71f8745d5343a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080728153806.GF7559@charite.de>
	<171bb3f10807280845m5daeb5d0n549b40fe7dad47de@mail.gmail.com>
	<171bb3f10807281035h14ece752i636886cf53695af5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080728174458.GA14397@charite.de>

* Steve <tinker123 at gmail.com>:
> Ralf;
> 
> Is this something I can do as a list owner or do I need to the host
> where the mailman software is running to do it?

The latter.

> If so, how would he do it?

Well, the hard part is activating it, so turning it off is easy :)

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt (i.A. des IT-Zentrums)         Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de
Charite - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin            Tel.  +49 (0)30-450 570-155
Gemeinsame Einrichtung von FU- und HU-Berlin    Fax.  +49 (0)30-450 570-962
IT-Zentrum Standort CBF                 send no mail to snickebo at charite.de

From brad at fineby.me.uk  Mon Jul 28 20:04:19 2008
From: brad at fineby.me.uk (Brad Rogers)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:04:19 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How big message size>
In-Reply-To: <6a215fbe0807280311k4a1370der45bfe2c0d1761eb3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a215fbe0807280311k4a1370der45bfe2c0d1761eb3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080728190419.254a6b44@abydos.stargate.org.uk>

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:11:46 +0700
"Maickel Pandie" <maickel.pandie at gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Maickel,

> How big usually you set message size in your mailing list server? I
> know the default is 40 KB but it's to small for user that want to
> share some file

I run one list for a small group of users with a size limit of 5MB.
Normally, I would not set it anywhere near this high, for similar
reasons to those given by Brad Knowles.  However, this list is for
people that are not at all computer literate (it's a small group of
genealogists researching the same family), so expecting them to learn
how to use FTP would be an uphill struggle (some of them can't even
turn off HTML in their email client, even with a step-by-step guide).

I would suggest that increasing it much beyond 5MB may cause problems,
not with Mailman, but mail servers.  One of the users on the
aforementioned list used to regularly "miss" messages that had large
attachments.  At the time, the size limit was 10MB.  I asked about, and
it seems that some servers just silently delete mail over a certain
size (varies according to the server's settings, of course).  Somewhere
along the route to him, the messages would just get deleted.  No
courtesy messages were sent, either to him, or the list's server/me, to
let us know what had happened.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"

It's becoming an obsession
Teenage Depression - Eddie & The Hot Rods
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From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Mon Jul 28 20:56:38 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:56:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] header showing in message body,
	moderation notifications
Message-ID: <20080728190002.6B80A1810A0@friskymail-a3.g.dreamhost.com>

Hi friends. 

1. I seem to be getting a blank line after the Sender header. (or something is going on.) This makes it appear that some content headers are ending up in the message body in my Eudora message views. Any ideas how I can clear this up?

As below.

Sender: listname-bounces at lists.ourdomain.org
Errors-To: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org

Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8F0D3.E3792D44"

2. Finally, can I get a notification email instantly when there is a message to moderate? The way it is right now, I only get notifications of pending moderated messages once per day. I looked around for this setting, and must have missed it. 


- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org


From b19141 at anl.gov  Mon Jul 28 22:05:42 2008
From: b19141 at anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:05:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Permissions on Symbolic Links Files
Message-ID: <20080728200542.601D7174F9@britaine.cis.anl.gov>

I have on my Mailman 2.1.10 production system and my 2.1.11 test system
both created from the SourceForge source and installed on Ubuntu dapper
via packages I built:

mailman% ls -al /var/lib/mailman
total 40
drwxrwsr-x 10 root list 4096 2007-02-28 11:11 .
drwxr-xr-x 22 root root 4096 2008-04-04 13:31 ..
lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root   20 2008-06-30 16:13 bin -> /usr/lib/mailman/bin
lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root   21 2008-06-30 16:13 cron -> /usr/lib/mailman/cron
lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root   24 2008-06-30 16:13 Mailman -> /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman
lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root   24 2008-06-30 16:13 scripts -> /usr/lib/mailman/scripts
<<Non-relevant lines from the "ls -al" listing have been removed.>>
mailman%
mailman# ls -al /usr/lib/mailman 
total 36
drwxr-xr-x  7 root list  4096 2007-02-28 11:11 .
drwxr-xr-x 48 root root 12288 2008-06-09 12:24 ..
drwxr-xr-x  2 root list  4096 2008-07-23 14:55 bin
drwxr-xr-x  2 root list  4096 2008-07-23 14:55 cron
drwxrwsr-x  2 root list  4096 2008-07-23 14:55 mail
drwxr-xr-x 11 root list  4096 2008-07-23 14:55 Mailman
drwxr-xr-x  2 root list  4096 2008-07-23 14:55 scripts
mailman#

When I run check_perms it complains:

     mailman# check_perms
     directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/Mailman
     directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/bin
     directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/cron
     directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/scripts
     Problems found: 4
     Re-run as list (or root) with -f flag to fix
     mailman# 

As Mailman is running fine, I do not want to change the permissions
on the symbolic links.  Is this correct?  I have 755 for the permissions
on the real files to which the symbolic links point.

Is check_perms reporting on the permissions of the symlinks or the
permissions of the real files to which the symbolic links point?

What problems would I see if I do not have group write not "02"
on these four files?
Thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994


From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Tue Jul 29 00:28:35 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:28:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] header showing in message body,
 moderation  notifications
In-Reply-To: <7C73F5EF-9070-450D-A351-8CA4C43F416F@zone12.com>
References: <20080728190002.6B80A1810A0@friskymail-a3.g.dreamhost.com>
	<7C73F5EF-9070-450D-A351-8CA4C43F416F@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <20080728222855.9289AFA18F@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>


Terri Oda wrote at 03:10 PM 7/28/2008:
 

>On 28-Jul-08, at 2:56 PM, Michael Welch wrote:
>>2. Finally, can I get a notification email instantly when there is  
>>a message to moderate? The way it is right now, I only get  
>>notifications of pending moderated messages once per day. I looked  
>>around for this setting, and must have missed it.
>
>It's right on the front page:
>
>"Should the list moderators get immediate notice of new requests, as  
>well as daily notices about collected ones?
>(Details for admin_immed_notify)"
>
>Set that to "yes" and you're good to go!
>
> Terri

Are you sure that is for moderated messages, or is that for requests to join?

Mine is set to yes, and I do not get immediate message moderation notices. 

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org


From terri at zone12.com  Tue Jul 29 00:10:48 2008
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:10:48 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] header showing in message body,
	moderation notifications
In-Reply-To: <20080728190002.6B80A1810A0@friskymail-a3.g.dreamhost.com>
References: <20080728190002.6B80A1810A0@friskymail-a3.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <7C73F5EF-9070-450D-A351-8CA4C43F416F@zone12.com>


On 28-Jul-08, at 2:56 PM, Michael Welch wrote:
> 2. Finally, can I get a notification email instantly when there is  
> a message to moderate? The way it is right now, I only get  
> notifications of pending moderated messages once per day. I looked  
> around for this setting, and must have missed it.

It's right on the front page:

"Should the list moderators get immediate notice of new requests, as  
well as daily notices about collected ones?
(Details for admin_immed_notify)"

Set that to "yes" and you're good to go!

  Terri


From sagyvolkov at gmail.com  Tue Jul 29 01:48:55 2008
From: sagyvolkov at gmail.com (Sagy Volkov)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:48:55 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How can one forward a rejected message to the list
	owner?
Message-ID: <cc9a24d00807281648r767c90e4kb1df0bf66357bb5@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Mailman version version 2.1.9.cp2, this is running on a hosted environment.
Basically my goal is simple, I need to reject/discard/not allow any non
members from sending emails to my mailing list email address, but, I also
need to the list mods to receive all reject/discard/not allowed emails.

When looking at "*Privacy options" -> "Senders filters" I have the option to
send a reject no***tice to non members, but I only have an option to send
discard posts to the list mods, no options to send automatic reply to
discard emails, so it looks like I have two halves of a solution but no way
to "connect" these halves.

I ask the company who's hosting this machine, if I can forward the mailman
email address to another address (either some external address outside of
the list or one of the members) and they say it can not be done.
Not having full access to the system (I run this thing through cPanel), I'm
a bit confused about their reply.

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Sagy Volkov
**

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 29 01:58:00 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:58:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Permissions on Symbolic Links Files
In-Reply-To: <20080728200542.601D7174F9@britaine.cis.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <PC187020080728165800012544fda7bd@msapiro>

Barry Finkel wrote:

>I have on my Mailman 2.1.10 production system and my 2.1.11 test system
>both created from the SourceForge source and installed on Ubuntu dapper
>via packages I built:
>
>mailman% ls -al /var/lib/mailman
>total 40
>drwxrwsr-x 10 root list 4096 2007-02-28 11:11 .
>drwxr-xr-x 22 root root 4096 2008-04-04 13:31 ..
>lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root   20 2008-06-30 16:13 bin -> /usr/lib/mailman/bin
>lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root   21 2008-06-30 16:13 cron -> /usr/lib/mailman/cron
>lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root   24 2008-06-30 16:13 Mailman -> /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman
>lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root   24 2008-06-30 16:13 scripts -> /usr/lib/mailman/scripts
><<Non-relevant lines from the "ls -al" listing have been removed.>>
>mailman%
>mailman# ls -al /usr/lib/mailman 
>total 36
>drwxr-xr-x  7 root list  4096 2007-02-28 11:11 .
>drwxr-xr-x 48 root root 12288 2008-06-09 12:24 ..
>drwxr-xr-x  2 root list  4096 2008-07-23 14:55 bin
>drwxr-xr-x  2 root list  4096 2008-07-23 14:55 cron
>drwxrwsr-x  2 root list  4096 2008-07-23 14:55 mail
>drwxr-xr-x 11 root list  4096 2008-07-23 14:55 Mailman
>drwxr-xr-x  2 root list  4096 2008-07-23 14:55 scripts
>mailman#
>
>When I run check_perms it complains:
>
>     mailman# check_perms
>     directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/Mailman
>     directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/bin
>     directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/cron
>     directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/scripts
>     Problems found: 4
>     Re-run as list (or root) with -f flag to fix
>     mailman# 
>
>As Mailman is running fine, I do not want to change the permissions
>on the symbolic links.  Is this correct?  I have 755 for the permissions
>on the real files to which the symbolic links point.


You can't change the permissions on a symlink itself anyway. Any
attempt to do so will attempt to change the target.


>Is check_perms reporting on the permissions of the symlinks or the
>permissions of the real files to which the symbolic links point?


The targets.


>What problems would I see if I do not have group write not "02"
>on these four files?


Typically these directories are SETGID and group writable. The fact
that they are not SETGID means that anything created subordinate to
them will be created with the group of the creator and not the 'list'
group. In practice the contents of these 4 directories are normally
only read, so as long as everything is world readable, it will work.

But if you applied a patch to some .py file in the Mailman directory,
Mailman processes running as group 'list' might not have permission to
update the corresponding .pyc file.

I have to wonder why you are doing this with symlinks at all. It looks
like what you really want is to run configure with

--prefix=/usr/lib/mailman  (the default), and
--with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman

or something similar.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 29 02:35:42 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:35:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How can one forward a rejected message to the
	listowner?
In-Reply-To: <cc9a24d00807281648r767c90e4kb1df0bf66357bb5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807281735420015abfd59b9@msapiro>

Sagy Volkov wrote:
>
>Mailman version version 2.1.9.cp2, this is running on a hosted environment.
>Basically my goal is simple, I need to reject/discard/not allow any non
>members from sending emails to my mailing list email address, but, I also
>need to the list mods to receive all reject/discard/not allowed emails.
>
>When looking at "*Privacy options" -> "Senders filters" I have the option to
>send a reject no***tice to non members, but I only have an option to send
>discard posts to the list mods, no options to send automatic reply to
>discard emails, so it looks like I have two halves of a solution but no way
>to "connect" these halves.


I'm a bit confused. You seem to be saying that either 'reject' or
'discard' of a non-member post is acceptable, but then you say you
want a notice to the poster which implies 'discard' is not acceptable.

Anyway, you can set forward_auto_discards to Yes, to forward discarded
(but not rejected) messages to the list owners and moderators.
Messages from nonmembers which are discarded because the sender is in
discard_these_nonmembers or generic_nonmember_action is discard will
be forwarded. There are no standard settings to forward to the owners
and moderators those messages which are 'rejected'.	


>I ask the company who's hosting this machine, if I can forward the mailman
>email address to another address (either some external address outside of
>the list or one of the members) and they say it can not be done.
>Not having full access to the system (I run this thing through cPanel), I'm
>a bit confused about their reply.


Their reply can mean anything from they don't know how to they don't
want to for various reasons. Also see <http://wiki.list.org/x/sYA9>.

If you want the owners/moderators to see every non-member post, have
you considered 'holding' them instead? You could also set General
Options->max_days_to_hold to some non-zero value to automatically
discard them eventually.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 29 02:49:32 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:49:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] From: header rewrite?
In-Reply-To: <48156.92501.qm@web35704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807281749320140aaaf90ec@msapiro>

David Piniella wrote:

>... i'd like the From: field to be "Party News <partynews at sample.org>" instead of the list address or sam at lists.sample.org.


Without modifying existing handlers or creating a custom handler
<http://wiki.list.org/x/l4A9>, those are your only two options within
Mailman.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 29 02:58:55 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:58:55 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] General list information page
In-Reply-To: <171bb3f10807280820v1816ce71jc5f67a5fa3734a87@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC187020080728175855084314dc7182@msapiro>

Steve wrote:
>
>I was editing the General list information page for my GNU Mailman
>list.   I accidentally deleted some of the standard code.  Does anyone
>know where I can get a template for the  General list information
>page?


<http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/annotate/head:/templates/en/listinfo.html>.

Or in Mailman's templates/en/ directory on the Mailman host.

Or just remove the file lists/<listname>/en/listinfo.html from the host
installation to start over from the default.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 29 03:00:40 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:00:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] General List Info Page without https?
In-Reply-To: <171bb3f10807280833p60e0fba9jddc71f8745d5343a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC187020080728180040012514dc6ea5@msapiro>

Steve wrote:
>
>I have a mailing list in the latest version of GNU Mailman.   The URL
>for the General Information page is httS:// and asks people to approve
>going into an "insecure" site.   The person hosting my mailing list
>understandably does not want to pay the $500 to get a secure
>certificate.  This is a nonprofit thing he is doing out of his good
>graces for free.
>
>There is nothing being logged onto on this General Information page.
>Is there something I can suggest to him so that httS:// doesn't have
>to be used?


What happens if you just go to the http:// url?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 29 03:05:57 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:05:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] header showing in message body,
	moderation  notifications
In-Reply-To: <20080728222855.9289AFA18F@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <PC187020080728180557023414dc6f23@msapiro>

Michael Welch wrote:
>
>Terri Oda wrote at 03:10 PM 7/28/2008:
> 
>
>>On 28-Jul-08, at 2:56 PM, Michael Welch wrote:
>>>2. Finally, can I get a notification email instantly when there is  
>>>a message to moderate? The way it is right now, I only get  
>>>notifications of pending moderated messages once per day. I looked  
>>>around for this setting, and must have missed it.
>>
>>It's right on the front page:
>>
>>"Should the list moderators get immediate notice of new requests, as  
>>well as daily notices about collected ones?
>>(Details for admin_immed_notify)"
>>
>>Set that to "yes" and you're good to go!
>>
>> Terri
>
>Are you sure that is for moderated messages, or is that for requests to join?
>
>Mine is set to yes, and I do not get immediate message moderation notices. 


It's for all moderator requests.

If it is set to Yes, and you get some owner notices, but not held
posts, there must be some modification in your Mailman installation.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 29 03:17:57 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:17:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] header showing in message body,
	moderation notifications
In-Reply-To: <20080728190002.6B80A1810A0@friskymail-a3.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807281817570671f256ad18@msapiro>

Michael Welch wrote:
>
>1. I seem to be getting a blank line after the Sender header. (or something is going on.) This makes it appear that some content headers are ending up in the message body in my Eudora message views. Any ideas how I can clear this up?
>
>As below.
>
>Sender: listname-bounces at lists.ourdomain.org
>Errors-To: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
>Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>	boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8F0D3.E3792D44"


Does this happen to all messages from Mailman?

Mailman adds the Sender: and Errors-To: headers as one of the last
steps in processing the message, and the get added to the end of the
headers so there are three possibilities.

The unlikely possibility is some other mail handling process added
those headers after Mailman.

The likely possibility is the message from Mailman has Content-Type:
multipart/xxx (or possibly message/rfc822) and the

Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8F0D3.E3792D44"

headers are actually the headers of a sub-part that Eudora is not
properly rendering.

The third (really unlikely) possibility is that Mailman's scrubber (if
scrub_nondigest is Yes) or content filtering or addition of msg_header
or msg_footer has munged the MIME structure of the message.

What do all the headers (including part headers) of the entire raw
message look like?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Tue Jul 29 04:03:21 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:03:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] header showing in message body,
 moderation  notifications
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807281817570671f256ad18@msapiro>
References: <20080728190002.6B80A1810A0@friskymail-a3.g.dreamhost.com>
	<PC1870200807281817570671f256ad18@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20080729020342.09E40181093@friskymail-a3.g.dreamhost.com>

Hi Mark. Thanks for your help.

Mark Sapiro wrote at 06:17 PM 7/28/2008:
 
>>1. I seem to be getting a blank line after the Sender header. (or something is going on.) This makes it appear that some content headers are ending up in the message body in my Eudora message views. Any ideas how I can clear this up?
>>
>>As below.
>>
>>Sender: listname-bounces at lists.ourdomain.org
>>Errors-To: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
>>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>       boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8F0D3.E3792D44"
>
>Does this happen to all messages from Mailman?

No, only to the ones that do not have the Content headers above the Sender and Errors-To headers.

>What do all the headers (including part headers) of the entire raw
>message look like?

Not sure about "raw," but here is one of the problem messages with Eudora's "Show All Headers" turned on, including through the first line of the message body:

Return-Path: <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>
X-Original-To: xxxxxxxxxx at re-wrenches.org
Delivered-To: m9252867 at friskymail-mx1.g.dreamhost.com
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        for <xxxxxxxxxxx at re-wrenches.org>; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:34:52 -0700 (PDT)
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        by che.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3716FE8A;
        Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:34:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Original-To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
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        for <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>;
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From: "xxxxxx" <xxxx at xxxx.com>
To: <xxx at xxxxxxx>,
        "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
References: <003c01c8f00b$f2f5ca40$a492c548 at 1AU>
In-Reply-To: <003c01c8f00b$f2f5ca40$a492c548 at 1AU>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:34:45 -0400
Organization: glb, Consulting Company
Message-ID: <006201c8f11b$499b3aa0$dcd1afe0$@burt at glbcc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0
Thread-Index: AcjvMBdkDbbOaQf3QRSZpdQ929oF8QAHxlrgAC3xi+AAAMk8QABESUDw
Content-Language: en-us
X-EN-UserInfo: 68146bc011f759eb9e1ef7151b459cc3:6156ae546b22151df025aba81cd654db
X-EN-AuthUser: xxxxxxxx at xxxx.com
X-EN-OrigIP: 68.172.92.234
X-EN-OrigHost: cpe-68-172-92-234.nycap.res.rr.com
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FW:  anodization removal for painting/coating
X-BeenThere: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11
Precedence: list
Reply-To: xxxxxxx at xxxxxx.com,
        RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
List-Id: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>
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Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0913672171=="
Sender: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
Errors-To: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
        boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0063_01C8F0F9.C2899AA0"
Content-Language: en-us

TSP is TriSodium Phosphate.



- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org


From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Tue Jul 29 04:26:22 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:26:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] header showing in message body,
 moderation   notifications
In-Reply-To: <PC187020080728180557023414dc6f23@msapiro>
References: <20080728222855.9289AFA18F@friskymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com>
	<PC187020080728180557023414dc6f23@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20080729022630.1B5B0121D0D@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>

Hi Mark.

Mark Sapiro wrote at 06:05 PM 7/28/2008:
 
>Michael Welch wrote:
>>
>>Terri Oda wrote at 03:10 PM 7/28/2008:
>> 
>>>It's right on the front page:
>>>
>>>"Should the list moderators get immediate notice of new requests, as  
>>>well as daily notices about collected ones?
>>>(Details for admin_immed_notify)"
>>>
>>>Set that to "yes" and you're good to go!
>>>
>>> Terri
>>
>>Are you sure that is for moderated messages, or is that for requests to join?
>>
>>Mine is set to yes, and I do not get immediate message moderation notices. 
>
>It's for all moderator requests.
>
>If it is set to Yes, and you get some owner notices, but not held
>posts, there must be some modification in your Mailman installation.

Yikes, that would be weird. Unless there is a perceived threat on DreamHost's part, I cannot imagine them modifying that.

Well, it probably will be no big deal, I had the whole list on Emergency Moderation until folks got used to the switchover from Topica. I turned that off this morning, and very few of the members are on individual moderation.

Hmmm, do you suppose there is something in Emergency Moderation that causes individual moderation notices to not be sent? 

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 29 04:46:01 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:46:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] header showing in message body,
	moderation   notifications
In-Reply-To: <20080729022630.1B5B0121D0D@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <PC187020080728194601059306d18cd2@msapiro>

Michael Welch wrote:
>
>Well, it probably will be no big deal, I had the whole list on Emergency Moderation until folks got used to the switchover from Topica. I turned that off this morning, and very few of the members are on individual moderation.
>
>Hmmm, do you suppose there is something in Emergency Moderation that causes individual moderation notices to not be sent? 


Absolutely. Notices are intentionally not sent for Emergency Moderation
holds. The docstring for the Emergency Moderation handler says:

"""Put an emergency hold on all messages otherwise approved.

No notices are sent to either the sender or the list owner for emergency
holds.  I think they'd be too obnoxious.
"""

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 29 04:54:11 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:54:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] header showing in message body,
	moderation  notifications
In-Reply-To: <20080729020342.09E40181093@friskymail-a3.g.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807281954110500a36f0e3f@msapiro>

Michael Welch wrote:
>
>Mark Sapiro wrote at 06:17 PM 7/28/2008:
> 
>>Does this happen to all messages from Mailman?
>
>No, only to the ones that do not have the Content headers above the Sender and Errors-To headers.
>
>>What do all the headers (including part headers) of the entire raw
>>message look like?
>
>Not sure about "raw," but here is one of the problem messages with Eudora's "Show All Headers" turned on, including through the first line of the message body:
>
><snip>
>From: "xxxxxx" <xxxx at xxxx.com>
>To: <xxx at xxxxxxx>,
>        "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
<snip>
>Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0913672171=="
>Sender: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>Errors-To: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>        boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0063_01C8F0F9.C2899AA0"
>Content-Language: en-us
>
>TSP is TriSodium Phosphate.


So. I suspect the actual message structure is:

multipart/mixed
    multipart/alternative
        text/plain
        text/html
    some-other-parts

and Eudora is showing you the text/plain part and not its headers, but
is not suppressing the part headers for the multipart/alternative part.

Can you find this message in the eudora mailbox? If so, that should be
the raw message.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From sagyvolkov at gmail.com  Tue Jul 29 04:59:37 2008
From: sagyvolkov at gmail.com (Sagy Volkov)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:59:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How can one forward a rejected message to the
	listowner?
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807281735420015abfd59b9@msapiro>
References: <cc9a24d00807281648r767c90e4kb1df0bf66357bb5@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1870200807281735420015abfd59b9@msapiro>
Message-ID: <cc9a24d00807281959w4a7d4528v60461e65b0f8f3e6@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

Thanks for the quick reply.
To sort out the confusion, what i meant by "acceptable" is that how don't
really care how the workflow will be (discard an email or reject an email),
as long as the result is that member of the list will NOT get any email sent
from non members, BUT, list moderators will receive any email, even the one
that are discard rejected AND that those non members who got discard/reject
will get an email notifying them they were rejected discard.

Right now, in the current configuration screen I can see from cPanel, the
mailman configuration, I can set auto reply to rejected messages from non
members (which is good), but i can not set the list mods to receive those
rejected emails.
On the other hand, there's an option to have all discard emails from non
members, going to list moderators, but non members who were discarded are
not getting any auto email saying they were discarded.

That's why I wrote, these two solutions tegother will give me what I want,
but i can not find how to implement them via mailman admin panel.

as for your 2nd suggestion, I don't want to use hold since that will mean
mods will need need to approve any post and that's not what i want.

Any suggestion/ways to fix this will be greatly appriciated.

Thanks,

Sagy Volkov

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> Sagy Volkov wrote:
> >
> >Mailman version version 2.1.9.cp2, this is running on a hosted
> environment.
> >Basically my goal is simple, I need to reject/discard/not allow any non
> >members from sending emails to my mailing list email address, but, I also
> >need to the list mods to receive all reject/discard/not allowed emails.
> >
> >When looking at "*Privacy options" -> "Senders filters" I have the option
> to
> >send a reject no***tice to non members, but I only have an option to send
> >discard posts to the list mods, no options to send automatic reply to
> >discard emails, so it looks like I have two halves of a solution but no
> way
> >to "connect" these halves.
>
>
> I'm a bit confused. You seem to be saying that either 'reject' or
> 'discard' of a non-member post is acceptable, but then you say you
> want a notice to the poster which implies 'discard' is not acceptable.
>
> Anyway, you can set forward_auto_discards to Yes, to forward discarded
> (but not rejected) messages to the list owners and moderators.
> Messages from nonmembers which are discarded because the sender is in
> discard_these_nonmembers or generic_nonmember_action is discard will
> be forwarded. There are no standard settings to forward to the owners
> and moderators those messages which are 'rejected'.
>
>
> >I ask the company who's hosting this machine, if I can forward the mailman
> >email address to another address (either some external address outside of
> >the list or one of the members) and they say it can not be done.
> >Not having full access to the system (I run this thing through cPanel),
> I'm
> >a bit confused about their reply.
>
>
> Their reply can mean anything from they don't know how to they don't
> want to for various reasons. Also see <http://wiki.list.org/x/sYA9>.
>
> If you want the owners/moderators to see every non-member post, have
> you considered 'holding' them instead? You could also set General
> Options->max_days_to_hold to some non-zero value to automatically
> discard them eventually.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>

From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org  Tue Jul 29 05:23:27 2008
From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:23:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] header showing in message body,
 moderation   notifications
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807281954110500a36f0e3f@msapiro>
References: <20080729020342.09E40181093@friskymail-a3.g.dreamhost.com>
	<PC1870200807281954110500a36f0e3f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20080729032333.775C55F5B4@friskymail-a1.g.dreamhost.com>

Hi Mark. Pasted below. There was way too much ugly MS html to go all the way to that first line of text.

Mark Sapiro wrote at 07:54 PM 7/28/2008:
 
>So. I suspect the actual message structure is:
>
>multipart/mixed
>    multipart/alternative
>        text/plain
>        text/html
>    some-other-parts
>
>and Eudora is showing you the text/plain part and not its headers, but
>is not suppressing the part headers for the multipart/alternative part.
>
>Can you find this message in the eudora mailbox? If so, that should be
>the raw message.

 From ???@??? Mon Jul 28 18:44:22 2008
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From: "xxxxx" <xxx at xxx.com>
To: <xxxxxxxx>,
        "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
References: <003c01c8f00b$f2f5ca40$a492c548 at 1AU>
In-Reply-To: <003c01c8f00b$f2f5ca40$a492c548 at 1AU>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:34:45 -0400
Organization: glb, Consulting Company
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FW:  anodization removal for painting/coating
X-BeenThere: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
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Precedence: list
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        boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0063_01C8F0F9.C2899AA0"
Content-Language: en-us

<x-html> 
(michael snipped here)


- - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Welch, volunteer
Redwood Alliance
PO Box 293
Arcata, CA 95518
707-822-7884
mwelch at redwoodalliance.org
www.redwoodalliance.org


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 29 05:33:53 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:33:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How can one forward a rejected message to the
	listowner?
In-Reply-To: <cc9a24d00807281959w4a7d4528v60461e65b0f8f3e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008072820335302961a3d5d9d@msapiro>

Sagy Volkov wrote:

>To sort out the confusion, what i meant by "acceptable" is that how don't
>really care how the workflow will be (discard an email or reject an email),
>as long as the result is that member of the list will NOT get any email sent
>from non members, BUT, list moderators will receive any email, even the one
>that are discard rejected AND that those non members who got discard/reject
>will get an email notifying them they were rejected discard.


In Mailman terminology this is a reject. The difference between reject
and discard is reject returns the post to the sender and discard does
not.


>Right now, in the current configuration screen I can see from cPanel, the
>mailman configuration, I can set auto reply to rejected messages from non
>members (which is good), but i can not set the list mods to receive those
>rejected emails.


That is correct.


>On the other hand, there's an option to have all discard emails from non
>members, going to list moderators, but non members who were discarded are
>not getting any auto email saying they were discarded.


Also correct.


>That's why I wrote, these two solutions tegother will give me what I want,
>but i can not find how to implement them via mailman admin panel.


Because you can't. You can either notivy the sender or the
owners/moderators, but not both without Modifying the Mailman code.
There is no configuration option to do what you want.


>as for your 2nd suggestion, I don't want to use hold since that will mean
>mods will need need to approve any post and that's not what i want.


No. You can set the list members unmoderated and their posts will go
through without moderator notice or action. You can then still set
generic_nonmember_action to hold, and a post from a non-member will be
held for moderator action and the nonmember will be notified.

Also, if you want these discarded after a few days with no moderator
action, you can set General Options->max_days_to_hold to some non-zero
value to automatically discard them after that many days.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From james at thereidsonline.com  Tue Jul 29 13:37:41 2008
From: james at thereidsonline.com (James Reid)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 21:37:41 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restricting throughput
In-Reply-To: <mailman.0.1217330359.4961.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.0.1217330359.4961.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <056401c8f16f$8759c3d0$960d4b70$@com>

Hi Everyone,

I've been running mailman for sometime (2 years) plus with all working fine.

However, I have one list that is now getting very busy, both by volume of
messages sent + size of each message + total number of subscribers.

I now have a problem where if someone sends a 1MB message to the list that
mailman will end up using almost all of the available bandwidth on my
internet connection, making it difficult for other mail and web service to
get out.

I'm looking at implementing QOS on my internet router with a view to giving
mailman traffic a low priority, but am also wondering if I can slow things
down at the mailman end.

I've looked at making adjustments to the following variables, but am not
quite sure whether these would have the desired effect or what combination
to use:
SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 20
SMTP_MAX_SESSIONS_PER_CONNECTION = 0
MAX_DELIVERY_THREADS = 0

Could someone give me some suggestions?

Thanks!
James.


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 29 16:25:12 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:25:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restricting throughput
In-Reply-To: <056401c8f16f$8759c3d0$960d4b70$@com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807290725120953558f9685@msapiro>

James Reid wrote:
>
>I've been running mailman for sometime (2 years) plus with all working fine.
>
>However, I have one list that is now getting very busy, both by volume of
>messages sent + size of each message + total number of subscribers.
>
>I now have a problem where if someone sends a 1MB message to the list that
>mailman will end up using almost all of the available bandwidth on my
>internet connection, making it difficult for other mail and web service to
>get out.


Mailman is not using internet bandwidth (unless the outgoing MTA is
remote). This is the outgoing MTA delivering the message to the
recipients.


>I'm looking at implementing QOS on my internet router with a view to giving
>mailman traffic a low priority, but am also wondering if I can slow things
>down at the mailman end.


This has been discussed many times on this list (also see
<http://wiki.list.org/x/j4A9>). There are no Mailman settings which
can be used to limit Mailman's sending rate.


>Could someone give me some suggestions?


Don't allow 1MB posts to large lists. See
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2008-July/062780.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From brad at python.org  Tue Jul 29 17:38:41 2008
From: brad at python.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:38:41 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restricting throughput
In-Reply-To: <056401c8f16f$8759c3d0$960d4b70$@com>
References: <mailman.0.1217330359.4961.mailman-users@python.org>
	<056401c8f16f$8759c3d0$960d4b70$@com>
Message-ID: <488F3981.4020508@python.org>

James Reid wrote:

> I've looked at making adjustments to the following variables, but am not
> quite sure whether these would have the desired effect or what combination
> to use:
> SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 20
> SMTP_MAX_SESSIONS_PER_CONNECTION = 0
> MAX_DELIVERY_THREADS = 0

None of these are likely to help you achieve what you want.  They'll just 
cause the same number of recipients to be spread over more or fewer outgoing 
mail messages, but given that most mailing lists don't see a whole lot of 
additional traffic when they turn on VERP, this is unlikely to buy you a 
whole lot.

You need to throttle at a whole different level, and this is not something 
that Mailman can help you with.  Go to the FAQ section of the Mailman wiki 
at <http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Frequently+Asked+Questions>, and search 
for "throttle".

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at python.org>
Member of the Python.org Postmaster Team & Co-Moderator of the
mailman-users and mailman-developers mailing lists

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul 29 21:22:45 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:22:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] header showing in message body,
	moderation  notifications
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807281954110500a36f0e3f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC187020080729122245057865498eaf@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Michael Welch wrote:
>>
>>Mark Sapiro wrote at 06:17 PM 7/28/2008:
>> 
>>>Does this happen to all messages from Mailman?
>>
>>No, only to the ones that do not have the Content headers above the Sender and Errors-To headers.
>>
>>>What do all the headers (including part headers) of the entire raw
>>>message look like?
>>
>>Not sure about "raw," but here is one of the problem messages with Eudora's "Show All Headers" turned on, including through the first line of the message body:
>>
>><snip>
>>From: "xxxxxx" <xxxx at xxxx.com>
>>To: <xxx at xxxxxxx>,
>>        "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
><snip>
>>Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0913672171=="
>>Sender: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>Errors-To: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>        boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0063_01C8F0F9.C2899AA0"
>>Content-Language: en-us
>>
>>TSP is TriSodium Phosphate.
>
>
>So. I suspect the actual message structure is:
>
>multipart/mixed
>    multipart/alternative
>        text/plain
>        text/html
>    some-other-parts
>
>and Eudora is showing you the text/plain part and not its headers, but
>is not suppressing the part headers for the multipart/alternative part.
>
>Can you find this message in the eudora mailbox? If so, that should be
>the raw message.


I have done some experimenting with Eudora 7.1.0.9, and have discovered
the following:

1)Eudora does properly parse a message with the above structure, so it
doesn't appear to be a Eudora rendering problem.

2)Eudora does not keep the raw message in In.mbx or apparently
anywhere. The message in In.mbx is a Eudora rendered message without
any part headers and with only the displayed alternatives. Thus it is
pretty much useless for seeing the actual mime structure of a message.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From yanghatespam at gmail.com  Wed Jul 30 03:06:29 2008
From: yanghatespam at gmail.com (Yang Zhang)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 21:06:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Membership change notifications
Message-ID: <488FBE95.2020408@gmail.com>

Hi, is it possible for either admins or moderators to receive email 
notifications whenever the list membership changes?  I can't seem to 
find this option, at least in the mailman hosted by SourceForge.  Thanks 
in advance!
-- 
Yang Zhang
http://www.mit.edu/~y_z/

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 30 04:01:37 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 19:01:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Membership change notifications
In-Reply-To: <488FBE95.2020408@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807291901370906a806472f@msapiro>

Yang Zhang wrote:

>Hi, is it possible for either admins or moderators to receive email 
>notifications whenever the list membership changes?  I can't seem to 
>find this option, at least in the mailman hosted by SourceForge.  Thanks 
>in advance!


I'm not sure what Mailman version is currently hosted by SourceForge. I
know there was discussion a couple of years ago about moving from an
old 2.0.x release to the latest 2.1 version, but I don't know if that
happened.

In Mailman 2.1.x, the setting is admin_notify_mchanges near the end of
the Notifications section on the General Options page. This causes
notices to be sent for subscribes and unsubscribes, but not for
address changes. Address change notification has been implemented, but
it requires a new message template for the notice, so it is deferred
to 2.2.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From yanghatespam at gmail.com  Wed Jul 30 04:16:59 2008
From: yanghatespam at gmail.com (Yang Zhang)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:16:59 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Membership change notifications
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200807291901370906a806472f@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200807291901370906a806472f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <488FCF1B.7040306@gmail.com>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Yang Zhang wrote:
> 
>> Hi, is it possible for either admins or moderators to receive email 
>> notifications whenever the list membership changes?  I can't seem to 
>> find this option, at least in the mailman hosted by SourceForge.  Thanks 
>> in advance!
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what Mailman version is currently hosted by SourceForge. I
> know there was discussion a couple of years ago about moving from an
> old 2.0.x release to the latest 2.1 version, but I don't know if that
> happened.
> 
> In Mailman 2.1.x, the setting is admin_notify_mchanges near the end of
> the Notifications section on the General Options page. This causes
> notices to be sent for subscribes and unsubscribes, but not for
> address changes. Address change notification has been implemented, but
> it requires a new message template for the notice, so it is deferred
> to 2.2.
> 

Thanks!  SF runs Mailman 2.1.8.
-- 
Yang Zhang
http://www.mit.edu/~y_z/

From b19141 at anl.gov  Wed Jul 30 17:08:56 2008
From: b19141 at anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:08:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Permissions on Symbolic Links Files
In-Reply-To: Mail from 'Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net>'
	dated: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:58:00 -0700
Message-ID: <20080730150856.EE573174F9@britaine.cis.anl.gov>

I wrote (>>):
with Mark Sapiro's comments interspersed (>):

>>I have on my Mailman 2.1.10 production system and my 2.1.11 test system
>>both created from the SourceForge source and installed on Ubuntu dapper
>>via packages I built:
>>
>>mailman% ls -al /var/lib/mailman
>>total 40
>>drwxrwsr-x 10 root list 4096 2007-02-28 11:11 .
>>drwxr-xr-x 22 root root 4096 2008-04-04 13:31 ..
>>lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root   20 2008-06-30 16:13 bin -> /usr/lib/mailman/bin
>>lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root   21 2008-06-30 16:13 cron -> /usr/lib/mailman/cron
>>lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root   24 2008-06-30 16:13 Mailman -> /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman
>>lrwxrwxrwx  1 root root   24 2008-06-30 16:13 scripts -> /usr/lib/mailman/scripts
>><<Non-relevant lines from the "ls -al" listing have been removed.>>
>>mailman%
>>mailman# ls -al /usr/lib/mailman 
>>total 36
>>drwxr-xr-x  7 root list  4096 2007-02-28 11:11 .
>>drwxr-xr-x 48 root root 12288 2008-06-09 12:24 ..
>>drwxr-xr-x  2 root list  4096 2008-07-23 14:55 bin
>>drwxr-xr-x  2 root list  4096 2008-07-23 14:55 cron
>>drwxrwsr-x  2 root list  4096 2008-07-23 14:55 mail
>>drwxr-xr-x 11 root list  4096 2008-07-23 14:55 Mailman
>>drwxr-xr-x  2 root list  4096 2008-07-23 14:55 scripts
>>mailman#
>>
>>When I run check_perms it complains:
>>
>>     mailman# check_perms
>>     directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/Mailman
>>     directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/bin
>>     directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/cron
>>     directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/scripts
>>     Problems found: 4
>>     Re-run as list (or root) with -f flag to fix
>>     mailman# 
>>
>>As Mailman is running fine, I do not want to change the permissions
>>on the symbolic links.  Is this correct?  I have 755 for the permissions
>>on the real files to which the symbolic links point.


>You can't change the permissions on a symlink itself anyway. Any
>attempt to do so will attempt to change the target.


>>Is check_perms reporting on the permissions of the symlinks or the
>>permissions of the real files to which the symbolic links point?


>The targets.


>>What problems would I see if I do not have group write not "02"
>>on these four files?


>Typically these directories are SETGID and group writable. The fact
>that they are not SETGID means that anything created subordinate to
>them will be created with the group of the creator and not the 'list'
>group. In practice the contents of these 4 directories are normally
>only read, so as long as everything is world readable, it will work.
>
>But if you applied a patch to some .py file in the Mailman directory,
>Mailman processes running as group 'list' might not have permission to
>update the corresponding .pyc file.
>
>I have to wonder why you are doing this with symlinks at all. It looks
>like what you really want is to run configure with
>
>--prefix=/usr/lib/mailman  (the default), and
>--with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman
>
>or something similar.

When I built my Mailman 2.1.9 and .11 packages for Ubuntu dapper,
I took the Ubuntu packaging and made as few changes as possible.
All I wanted was that the files be placed in the correct directories
for Ubuntu.  I used the current source, and I removed all of the
Debian/Ubuntu patches except one:

     01_defaults.debian.dpatch

that makes three changes to the file Mailman/Defaults.py.in:

     -IMAGE_LOGOS = '/icons/'
     +IMAGE_LOGOS = '/doc/mailman/images/'

     -DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'
     +DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/cgi-bin/mailman/'

     -PIDFILE = os.path.join(DATA_DIR, 'master-qrunner.pid')
     +PIDFILE = "/var/run/mailman/mailman.pid"

The other patch files were source changes that I did not want because
they were undocumented, and I had no idea for which SourceForge code
base they were written.  I assumed that the SourceForge source needed
no patches.

In the file

     mailman-2.1.11/debian/rules

I made a few changes:

mailman# diff rules rules.original
38c38
<               --with-mail-gid=list --with-cgi-gid=www-data \
---
>               --with-mail-gid=daemon --with-cgi-gid=www-data \
70,71c70
< #       The following line was commented by BSFinkel 07/01/2008.
< #       Debian removs pythonlib in error to fix a problem.
< #     rmdir debian/$(package)/var/lib/mailman/pythonlib
---
>       rmdir debian/$(package)/var/lib/mailman/pythonlib
126,128c125
< #     The following line was commented by BSFinkel 07/01/2008 because 
< #     the directory "admin" does not exist in Mailman 2.1.10 nor .11.
< #     cp -a admin/www debian/mailman/usr/share/doc/$(package)/html
---
>       cp -a admin/www debian/mailman/usr/share/doc/$(package)/html
mailman#

Of course, the admin line was only commented in 2.1.11, not in 2.1.9.
That rules file has two sections of code:

-----
Makefile:
        autoconf
        ./configure --prefix=/var/lib/$(package) --with-username=list \
                --with-groupname=list \
                --with-mail-gid=list --with-cgi-gid=www-data \
                --without-permcheck --with-mailhost=localhost \
                --with-urlhost=localhost
-----
binary-arch:    checkroot build
        $(checkdir)
#       rm -rf debian/mailman && install -d debian/mailman
        dh_installdirs
        dh_installdocs ACKNOWLEDGMENTS README* TODO BUGS NEWS FAQ
        dh_installchangelogs
        $(MAKE) doinstall prefix=$$(pwd)/debian/mailman/var/lib/$(package) \
                var_prefix=$$(pwd)/debian/mailman/var/lib/$(package) \
                icondir=$$(pwd)/debian/mailman/usr/share/images/mailman \
                ICONDIR=$$(pwd)/debian/mailman/usr/share/images/mailman
-----

and I did not want to make any changes to the directories into which
Ubuntu/Debian stores the Mailman files.

I am assuming that with a straight Debian/Ubuntu package install the
same symlinks and directories that I have are present therein.  Can
someone who has an unmodifed Debian/Ubuntu package for Mailman confirm
this?  Thanks.

I ran the fixup:

mailman# check_perms
directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/Mailman
directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/bin
directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/cron
directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/scripts
Problems found: 4
Re-run as list (or root) with -f flag to fix
mailman# check_perms -f 
directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/Mailman (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/bin (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/cron (fixing)
directory permissions must be 02775: /var/lib/mailman/scripts (fixing)
Problems found: 4
Re-run as list (or root) with -f flag to fix
mailman# !!
check_perms -f
No problems found
mailman# ls -al /var/lib/mailman/Mailman
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 24 2008-06-30 16:13 /var/lib/mailman/Mailman -> /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman
mailman# ls -al /var/lib/mailman/bin
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 2008-06-30 16:13 /var/lib/mailman/bin -> /usr/lib/mailman/bin
mailman# ls -al /var/lib/mailman/cron
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 2008-06-30 16:13 /var/lib/mailman/cron -> /usr/lib/mailman/cron
mailman# ls -al /var/lib/mailman/scripts
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 24 2008-06-30 16:13 /var/lib/mailman/scripts -> /usr/lib/mailman/scripts
mailman# ls -ald /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman
drwxrwsr-x 11 root list 4096 2008-07-23 14:55 /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman
mailman# ls -ald /usr/lib/mailman/bin
drwxrwsr-x 2 root list 4096 2008-07-23 14:55 /usr/lib/mailman/bin
mailman# ls -ald /usr/lib/mailman/cron
drwxrwsr-x 2 root list 4096 2008-07-23 14:55 /usr/lib/mailman/cron
mailman# ls -ald /usr/lib/mailman/scripts
drwxrwsr-x 2 root list 4096 2008-07-23 14:55 /usr/lib/mailman/scripts
mailman#

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jul 30 20:13:04 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:13:04 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Permissions on Symbolic Links Files
In-Reply-To: <20080730150856.EE573174F9@britaine.cis.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807301113040453d1a2f749@msapiro>

Barry Finkel wrote:

>126,128c125
>< #     The following line was commented by BSFinkel 07/01/2008 because 
>< #     the directory "admin" does not exist in Mailman 2.1.10 nor .11.
>< #     cp -a admin/www debian/mailman/usr/share/doc/$(package)/html
>---
>>       cp -a admin/www debian/mailman/usr/share/doc/$(package)/html
>mailman#
>
>Of course, the admin line was only commented in 2.1.11, not in 2.1.9.


Between 2.1.9 and 2.1.10, all the documentation was moved from the
'code' branches to a separate branch. In 2.1.9, the doc/ directory
contained primarily the LaTex source for the mailman-admin,
mailman-install and mailman-member manuals and and the admin/www
directory contained the HTML, Postscript, PDF and plain text versions
plus the HTML (and the files from which it is generated) for the
<http://www.list.org/> web site.

Beginning in 2.1.10, the doc/ directory contains most of what was
previously in the admin/www/ directory, the exception being the files
for the <http://www.list.org/> web site.


The bottom line is if you want the docs in the
debian/mailman/usr/share/doc directory, you can change

      cp -a admin/www debian/mailman/usr/share/doc/$(package)/html

to

      cp -a doc debian/mailman/usr/share/doc/$(package)/html

instead of commenting it and the result will be similar to 2.1.9.


>That rules file has two sections of code:
>
>-----
>Makefile:
>        autoconf
>        ./configure --prefix=/var/lib/$(package) --with-username=list \
>                --with-groupname=list \
>                --with-mail-gid=list --with-cgi-gid=www-data \
>                --without-permcheck --with-mailhost=localhost \
>                --with-urlhost=localhost
>-----
>binary-arch:    checkroot build
>        $(checkdir)
>#       rm -rf debian/mailman && install -d debian/mailman
>        dh_installdirs
>        dh_installdocs ACKNOWLEDGMENTS README* TODO BUGS NEWS FAQ
>        dh_installchangelogs
>        $(MAKE) doinstall prefix=$$(pwd)/debian/mailman/var/lib/$(package) \
>                var_prefix=$$(pwd)/debian/mailman/var/lib/$(package) \
>                icondir=$$(pwd)/debian/mailman/usr/share/images/mailman \
>                ICONDIR=$$(pwd)/debian/mailman/usr/share/images/mailman
>-----
>
>and I did not want to make any changes to the directories into which
>Ubuntu/Debian stores the Mailman files.
>
>I am assuming that with a straight Debian/Ubuntu package install the
>same symlinks and directories that I have are present therein.  Can
>someone who has an unmodifed Debian/Ubuntu package for Mailman confirm
>this?  Thanks.


I can't confirm this based on the package, but it appears from the
above that everything is configured to be installed in
/var/lib/mailman, but that some (but not all) of the 'PREFIX'
directories are actually installed by the package in /usr/lib/mailman.
If that is the case, then the symlinks are necessary.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From maickel.pandie at gmail.com  Thu Jul 31 07:27:21 2008
From: maickel.pandie at gmail.com (Maickel Pandie)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:27:21 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How many domain in one list of mailing list?
Message-ID: <6a215fbe0807302227m2b908e30jce59ed51ebac4cea@mail.gmail.com>

Hi friend,

I have some question. in average, How many domain in one list of
mailing list in your server? because refer to RFC 2821 message always
be sent once for one domain

For corporate mailing list how many domain in average?
For public mailing list how many domain in average?

From al_shopov at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 31 14:16:00 2008
From: al_shopov at yahoo.com (Alexander Shopov)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 05:16:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Receiving filtered commit messages via a Handler
Message-ID: <457465.51320.qm@web52109.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

> Put the handler in the pipeline before Moderate and set
Thanx. Worked like a wonder.
al_shopov


      

From hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu  Thu Jul 31 16:51:08 2008
From: hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu (hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:51:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MAX_MESSAGE_SIZE limit
Message-ID: <A084027E1BB6888D7D664FB3@OHIO-87C67B454B.cns.ohiou.edu>

How would I set a MAX_MESSAGE_SIZE to 5MB, for example, for all lists? Or 
would this need to be done in the MTA?

I would leave the DEFAULT_MAX_MESSAGE_SIZE to 40 KB, but don't want list 
owners to set it to 0 (unlimited).

Don Hone
<http://edirectory.ohio.edu/?$search?uid=hone>
Ohio University

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul 31 18:19:33 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:19:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MAX_MESSAGE_SIZE limit
In-Reply-To: <A084027E1BB6888D7D664FB3@OHIO-87C67B454B.cns.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807310919330921eed5d63a@msapiro>

hone+mailman at oak.cats.ohiou.edu wrote:

>How would I set a MAX_MESSAGE_SIZE to 5MB, for example, for all lists? Or 
>would this need to be done in the MTA?


#!/bin/sh
f=`mktemp`
echo max_message_size = 5000 > $f
cd /path/to/mailman/
for l in `bin/list_lists --bare` ; do
bin/config_list -i $f $l
done
rm $f


>I would leave the DEFAULT_MAX_MESSAGE_SIZE to 40 KB, but don't want list 
>owners to set it to 0 (unlimited).


Then you'd have to edit Mailman/Gui/General.py to remove that setting
from the page. I.e. remove or comment these lines

    ('max_message_size', mm_cfg.Number, 7, 0,
     _('''Maximum length in kilobytes (KB) of a message body.  Use 0
     for no limit.''')),

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan