From measl at mfn.org Mon Dec 1 04:00:24 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:00:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] List "disappears" now. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So, we've gone from disappearing 'space" to a disappearing list! The machine in question has no disappearing space, but after running flawlessly for 6/7 months, the "lists" page only shows 3 out of the four active lists (there's 2 admins, but I'm the only one who would do anything other than approve messages). at http://lists.domain.com/mailman/listinfo/ I see list2 Description list3 Description list4 Description --> list1 is *gone*, yet is is fully operational and carrying heavy traffic. i can reach list1 directly at http://lists.domain.com/mailman/listinfo/list1 On the file systems, everything *seems* OK (I ran perm_chk to be sure): [root at lists /usr/spv/mailman]# ls -al lists total 14 drwxrwsr-x 7 root mailman 512 Jul 1 12:57 . drwxrwsr-x 19 mailman mailman 512 Nov 27 14:47 .. drwxrwsr-x 3 apache mailman 512 Nov 30 20:34 list1 drwxrwsr-x 3 apache mailman 512 Nov 30 18:35 list2 drwxrwsr-x 2 root mailman 512 Nov 30 00:10 mailman drwxrwsr-x 3 apache mailman 512 Nov 30 20:48 list3 drwxrwsr-x 3 apache mailman 512 Nov 30 19:09 list4 [root at lists /usr/spv/mailman]# cd archives [root at lists /usr/spv/mailman]# ls -al total 8 drwxrwsr-x 4 root mailman 512 Jun 24 01:01 . drwxrwsr-x 19 mailman mailman 512 Nov 27 14:47 .. drwxrwsr-x 12 apache mailman 512 Jul 1 12:57 private drwxrwsr-x 2 apache mailman 512 Jul 1 12:57 public [root at lists /usr/spv/mailman/archives]# ls -al private total 24 drwxrwsr-x 12 apache mailman 512 Jul 1 12:57 . drwxrwsr-x 4 root mailman 512 Jun 24 01:01 .. drwxrwsr-x 10 apache mailman 1024 Nov 2 00:05 list1 drwxrwsr-x 2 apache mailman 512 Jun 28 00:10 list1.mbox drwxrwsr-x 10 apache mailman 1024 Nov 2 00:05 list2 drwxrwsr-x 2 apache mailman 512 Jun 28 00:21 list2.mbox drwxrwsr-x 5 apache mailman 512 Jul 3 03:27 mailman drwxrwsr-x 2 apache mailman 512 Jun 24 01:19 mailman.mbox drwxrwsr-x 5 apache mailman 512 Jul 1 12:49 list3 drwxrwsr-x 2 apache mailman 512 Jun 28 00:18 list3.mbox drwxrwsr-x 5 apache mailman 512 Jul 1 12:47 list4 drwxrwsr-x 2 apache mailman 512 Jun 28 00:18 list4.mbox [root at lists /usr/spv/mailman/archives]# ls -al public/ total 4 drwxrwsr-x 2 apache mailman 512 Jul 1 12:57 . drwxrwsr-x 4 root mailman 512 Jun 24 01:01 .. lrwxr-xr-x 1 apache mailman 48 Jun 28 00:09 list1 -> /usr/spv/mailman/archives/private/list1 lrwxr-xr-x 1 apache mailman 49 Jun 28 00:16 list2 -> /usr/spv/mailman/archives/private/list2 lrwxr-xr-x 1 apache mailman 53 Jun 28 00:12 list3 -> /usr/spv/mailman/archives/private/list3 lrwxr-xr-x 1 apache mailman 52 Jun 28 00:15 list4 -> /usr/spv/mailman/archives/private/list4 [root at lists /usr/spv/mailman/archives]# I've never seen this before - how about anyone here? the first anyone noticed this was about an hour ago, but it could have happened anytime in the last few weeks. this is clearly something simple and in my face, but I dont see it. //Alif (BTW, the box with the disappearing space looks like logfiles - not done there yet, but I'm 90% certain it's rotation) -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 1 04:08:12 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:08:12 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] List "disappears" now. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: J.A. Terranson wrote: > >So, we've gone from disappearing 'space" to a disappearing list! And what is the status of disappearing 'space"? >The machine in question has no disappearing space, but after running >flawlessly for 6/7 months, the "lists" page only shows 3 out of the four >active lists (there's 2 admins, but I'm the only one who would do >anything other than approve messages). See the FAQ at -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 1 04:12:11 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:12:11 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] List "disappears" now. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark Sapiro wrote: > >And what is the status of disappearing 'space"? Having not read far enough down in your post. >(BTW, the box with the disappearing space looks like logfiles - not done >there yet, but I'm 90% certain it's rotation) -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From measl at mfn.org Mon Dec 1 04:41:15 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:41:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] List "disappears" now. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Nov 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote: > See the FAQ at What, besides clicking the web interface, would cause this to flip? 2 people have the password. I haven't been there since I set this up months ago, and I checked with the other admin, and she says shes only approved postings, and is afraid of the rest of the UI (I believe that BTW-she's just *terrified* of the ui). I though about this and then dismissed it - improperly it would seem (blushing), as I should be the only one to touch it. Thanks for allowing me to be a genuine schmuck :-) I both appreciate the help, and the self-inflicted reminder to check the obvious even if its impossible. Nevertheless, just for me, was there another way? //Alif -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 1 05:12:05 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:12:05 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] List "disappears" now. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: J.A. Terranson > >Nevertheless, just for me, was there another way? List attributes like advertised can be changed via the web admin ui and via command line tools, e.g. bin/config_list and bin/withlist. They can also be inadvertently changed by restoring old backups of the lists/LISTNAME/config.pck file, but that doesn't seem to be much of a possibility here. There is one other rare possibility. If the list was originally created as a Mailman 2.0 list and migrated to 2.1, the migration converted the 2.0 lists/LISTNAME/config.db file to an "equivalent lists/LISTNAME/config.pck, but it left the lists/LISTNAME/config.db file in place. You should remove these files or move them aside. The reason is if somehow hboth the lists/LISTNAME/config.pck and lists/LISTNAME/config.pck.last files should become corrupt and unreadable, Mailman will fall back to the now ancient lists/LISTNAME/config.db if there is one. It is also not likely that this was the reason either. As far as I know, no other Mailman process changes these attributes. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From richih.mailinglist at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 10:21:02 2008 From: richih.mailinglist at gmail.com (Richard Hartmann) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:21:02 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange error with Mailman 2.1.9 Message-ID: <2d460de70812010121h4c79b8f8q344c9c1b710917c@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I have this in my error log: Nov 27 09:53:19 2008 post(18252): Traceback (most recent call last): post(18252): File "/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/post", line 69, in ? post(18252): main() post(18252): File "/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/post", line 64, in main post(18252): tolist=1, _plaintext=1) post(18252): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 137, in enqueue post(18252): os.fsync(fp.fileno()) post(18252): OSError : [Errno 5] Input/output error post(19319): File "/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/post", line 64, in main post(19319): tolist=1, _plaintext=1) post(19319): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 137, in enqueue post(19319): os.fsync(fp.fileno()) post(19319): OSError : [Errno 5] Input/output error Nov 28 11:49:40 2008 post(927): Traceback (most recent call last): post(927): File "/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/post", line 69, in ? post(927): main() post(927): File "/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/post", line 64, in main post(927): tolist=1, _plaintext=1) post(927): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 137, in enqueue post(927): os.fsync(fp.fileno()) post(927): OSError : [Errno 5] Input/output error And my in looks like: ./in: total 3.4M -rw-rw---- 1 root mailman 456K Nov 27 09:48 1227775710.928695+a44f4a2c5af5927c529c6c4a5589ab71759a1f86.pck.tmp -rw-rw---- 1 root mailman 120K Nov 27 14:38 1227793170.26085+afbc8b7ceee95547b83dc3e69f055d67e53acb33.pck.tmp -rw-rw---- 1 root mailman 16M Nov 28 11:43 1227861580.003396+d73b39bd22372e715d2d80786654ef362e65fae0.pck.tmp Things I checked are: 1) free disk space: more than enough 2) free inodes: more than enough 3) no SELinux or other security/restriction framework installed 4) bin/check_perms does not list any errors 5) other email is delivered Any other ideas what to check? Upgrading Mailmain is an option, but I would like to avoid that, if possible. Thanks for all feedback, Richard From richih.mailinglist at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 11:14:03 2008 From: richih.mailinglist at gmail.com (Richard Hartmann) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 11:14:03 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange error with Mailman 2.1.9 In-Reply-To: <2d460de70812010121h4c79b8f8q344c9c1b710917c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d460de70812010121h4c79b8f8q344c9c1b710917c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d460de70812010214g2d47cde6n61fe2cb642bd4faa@mail.gmail.com> Further info: Restarting mailman gives me # /etc/init.d/mailman restart Shutting down mailman done rm: cannot remove `/var/lib/mailman/locks/*': No such file or directory Starting mailmanrm: cannot remove `/var/lib/mailman/locks/*': No such file or directory # ls -l /var/lib/mailman/locks/ total 8 -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 49 Dec 2 2008 master-qrunner -rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 49 Dec 2 2008 master-qrunner.plesk1.6444 # I tried stopping mailman, moving the messages to shunt/, starting Mailman again and then running bin/unshunt, but that does not work, either. Neither does this produce any new log output. Any and all ideas appreciated.. Richard From richih.mailinglist at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 11:50:05 2008 From: richih.mailinglist at gmail.com (Richard Hartmann) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 11:50:05 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange error with Mailman 2.1.9 In-Reply-To: <2d460de70812010214g2d47cde6n61fe2cb642bd4faa@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d460de70812010121h4c79b8f8q344c9c1b710917c@mail.gmail.com> <2d460de70812010214g2d47cde6n61fe2cb642bd4faa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d460de70812010250p85ff296qe48eae5fde6ce716@mail.gmail.com> Even more info (should have stated that in the first email): This is a NFS share. So it might 'just' be a crappy net connection. Any thoughts about this patch which I plan to apply locally? Beware evil GMail linebreaks.. --- /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py.orig 2008-12-01 11:46:31.524425955 +0100 +++ /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py 2008-12-01 11:48:39.676765175 +0100 @@ -134,7 +134,19 @@ fp.write(msgsave) cPickle.dump(data, fp, protocol) fp.flush() - os.fsync(fp.fileno()) + # os.fsync(fp.fileno()) + # Sometimes, the sync to our NFS share fails. This retries + # nine times and then gives up -- RichiH 081201 + for trial in xrange(10): + try: + os.fsync(fp.fileno()) + except OSError, e: + if trial == 9 or e.errno != errno.EIO: + raise + time.sleep(1) + continue + else: + break finally: fp.close() finally: Thanks, Richars From measl at mfn.org Mon Dec 1 15:14:34 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:14:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange error with Mailman 2.1.9 In-Reply-To: <2d460de70812010214g2d47cde6n61fe2cb642bd4faa@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d460de70812010121h4c79b8f8q344c9c1b710917c@mail.gmail.com> <2d460de70812010214g2d47cde6n61fe2cb642bd4faa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2008, Richard Hartmann wrote: > Restarting mailman gives me > > # /etc/init.d/mailman restart > Shutting down mailman > > done > rm: cannot remove `/var/lib/mailman/locks/*': No such file or directory > Starting mailmanrm: cannot remove `/var/lib/mailman/locks/*': No such > file or directory try this: ./mailmanctl stop ./mailmanctl --stale-lock-cleanup start -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From richih.mailinglist at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 17:27:46 2008 From: richih.mailinglist at gmail.com (Richard Hartmann) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 17:27:46 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange error with Mailman 2.1.9 In-Reply-To: References: <2d460de70812010121h4c79b8f8q344c9c1b710917c@mail.gmail.com> <2d460de70812010214g2d47cde6n61fe2cb642bd4faa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d460de70812010827v356af262xd226e941c7c94416@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 15:14, J.A. Terranson wrote: > try this: > > ./mailmanctl stop > ./mailmanctl --stale-lock-cleanup start Nope, the warnings are still there. I don't really care about those, though. My main concern is to make Mailman reliably relay list mail. Thanks though! Rihcard From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 1 18:01:31 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 09:01:31 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange error with Mailman 2.1.9 In-Reply-To: <2d460de70812010214g2d47cde6n61fe2cb642bd4faa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Richard Hartmann wrote: >Further info: > >Restarting mailman gives me > ># /etc/init.d/mailman restart >Shutting down mailman > > done >rm: cannot remove `/var/lib/mailman/locks/*': No such file or directory >Starting mailmanrm: cannot remove `/var/lib/mailman/locks/*': No such >file or directory > # ls -l /var/lib/mailman/locks/ >total 8 >-rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 49 Dec 2 2008 master-qrunner >-rw-rw-r-- 2 mailman mailman 49 Dec 2 2008 master-qrunner.plesk1.6444 ># First of all, your /etc/init.d/mailman script come from plesk or some other packager. Our suggested script doesn't attempt to remove lock files. Second, I'm guessing, but if the rm /var/lib/mailman/locks/* comes after "mailmanctl stop" it is normal that there are no locks, although your ls seems to show a master lock which may be stale. Is there a pid 6444 running? Still guessing, but perhaps your script does something like mailmanctl stop rm /var/lib/mailman/locks/* ... rm /var/lib/mailman/locks/* mailmanctl start in order to remove all locks after stoping and before starting. Then tha absence of locks would be normal, and the locks you see from 'ls' are the ones just created when Mailman started. Finally, if "rm /var/lib/mailman/locks/*" says "cannot remove `/var/lib/mailman/locks/*': No such file or directory" when there are files, this is not a Mailman question. >I tried stopping mailman, moving the messages to shunt/, starting Mailman again >and then running bin/unshunt, but that does not work, either. Neither does this >produce any new log output. You indicated files named *.pck.tmp in /in/ These won't be processed by unshunt. If you want to reprocess them, just leave them in the /in/ queue and remove the .tmp from the name. Then IncomingRunner will process them. However, since the write to flush and sync the file failed, the file may be incomplete. You should dump the file with "bin/dumpdb -p" to make sure it contains both a message and a metadata object before renaming it. Do not unshunt files that weren't shunted to begin with. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 1 18:03:43 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 09:03:43 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange error with Mailman 2.1.9 In-Reply-To: <2d460de70812010250p85ff296qe48eae5fde6ce716@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Richard Hartmann wrote: >Even more info (should have stated that in the first email): > >This is a NFS share. So it might 'just' be a crappy net connection. > >Any thoughts about this patch which I plan to apply locally? >Beware evil GMail linebreaks.. > > >--- /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py.orig 2008-12-01 >11:46:31.524425955 +0100 >+++ /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py 2008-12-01 >11:48:39.676765175 +0100 >@@ -134,7 +134,19 @@ > fp.write(msgsave) > cPickle.dump(data, fp, protocol) > fp.flush() >- os.fsync(fp.fileno()) >+ # os.fsync(fp.fileno()) >+ # Sometimes, the sync to our NFS share fails. This retries >+ # nine times and then gives up -- RichiH 081201 >+ for trial in xrange(10): >+ try: >+ os.fsync(fp.fileno()) >+ except OSError, e: >+ if trial == 9 or e.errno != errno.EIO: >+ raise >+ time.sleep(1) >+ continue >+ else: >+ break > finally: > fp.close() > finally: The patch looks OK. Let us know how it works. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From richih.mailinglist at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 18:19:33 2008 From: richih.mailinglist at gmail.com (Richard Hartmann) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:19:33 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange error with Mailman 2.1.9 In-Reply-To: References: <2d460de70812010214g2d47cde6n61fe2cb642bd4faa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d460de70812010919t32b6711eobb6b752d591cecde@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 18:01, Mark Sapiro wrote: > First of all, your /etc/init.d/mailman script come from plesk or some > other packager. Our suggested script doesn't attempt to remove lock > files. Yes, it's Plesk (unfortunately). > You should > dump the file with "bin/dumpdb -p" to make sure it contains both a > message and a metadata object before renaming it. # /usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb -p /var/lib/mailman/qfiles/shunt/1227775710.928695+a44f4a2c5af5927c529c6c4a5589ab71759a1f86.pck.tmp [----- start pickle file -----] Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb", line 159, in msg = main() File "/usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb", line 139, in main obj = load(fp) ValueError: insecure string pickle # /usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb -p /var/lib/mailman/qfiles/shunt/1227793170.26085+afbc8b7ceee95547b83dc3e69f055d67e53acb33.pck.tmp [----- start pickle file -----] Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb", line 159, in msg = main() File "/usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb", line 139, in main obj = load(fp) ValueError: insecure string pickle # /usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb -p /var/lib/mailman/qfiles/shunt/1227861580.003396+d73b39bd22372e715d2d80786654ef362e65fae0.pck.tmp [----- start pickle file -----] Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb", line 159, in msg = main() File "/usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb", line 139, in main obj = load(fp) ValueError: insecure string pickle # > Do not unshunt files that weren't shunted to begin with. OK, thanks. I added your hint to my personal wiki. Very useful! Richard From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 1 18:24:56 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 09:24:56 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange error with Mailman 2.1.9 In-Reply-To: <2d460de70812010919t32b6711eobb6b752d591cecde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Richard Hartmann wrote: > >> You should >> dump the file with "bin/dumpdb -p" to make sure it contains both a >> message and a metadata object before renaming it. > ># /usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb -p >/var/lib/mailman/qfiles/shunt/1227775710.928695+a44f4a2c5af5927c529c6c4a5589ab71759a1f86.pck.tmp >[----- start pickle file -----] >Traceback (most recent call last): > File "/usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb", line 159, in > msg = main() > File "/usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb", line 139, in main > obj = load(fp) >ValueError: insecure string pickle It looks like the files are corrupt. You may be able to see something of the contents with 'strings', but Mailman won't be able to process them as they are. If strings allows you to actually recover a message from the file, you can re-post that message with bin/inject. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From richih.mailinglist at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 18:27:29 2008 From: richih.mailinglist at gmail.com (Richard Hartmann) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:27:29 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange error with Mailman 2.1.9 In-Reply-To: References: <2d460de70812010919t32b6711eobb6b752d591cecde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d460de70812010927h2c097c28r83f66009763cf6fe@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 18:24, Mark Sapiro wrote: > It looks like the files are corrupt. You may be able to see something > of the contents with 'strings', but Mailman won't be able to process > them as they are. > > If strings allows you to actually recover a message from the file, you > can re-post that message with bin/inject. Thank you very much! For reference, how should the output of dumpdb -p look like if the files were OK? Richard From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 1 18:39:02 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 09:39:02 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange error with Mailman 2.1.9 In-Reply-To: <2d460de70812010927h2c097c28r83f66009763cf6fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Richard Hartmann wrote: > >For reference, how should the output of dumpdb -p look like if the >files were OK? Something like the following: [----- start pickle file -----] <----- start object 1 -----> (this section has the raw message text) <----- start object 2 -----> { '_parsemsg': True, 'listname': 'list1', 'received_time': 1199323852.640625, 'tolist': 1, 'version': 3} [----- end pickle file -----] -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From richih.mailinglist at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 18:57:59 2008 From: richih.mailinglist at gmail.com (Richard Hartmann) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:57:59 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange error with Mailman 2.1.9 In-Reply-To: References: <2d460de70812010927h2c097c28r83f66009763cf6fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d460de70812010957r54010b8ald382009f0d216265@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 18:39, Mark Sapiro wrote: > Something like the following: Thanks yet again! Richard From ricardo at americasnet.com Mon Dec 1 20:50:21 2008 From: ricardo at americasnet.com (Ricardo Kleemann) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 11:50:21 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated? References: Message-ID: <01f401c953ee$1db28390$2eac170a@LA.FRD.DIRECTV.COM> Mark, thanks for your help. For the most part I did get around the SMTP issues last week, I disabled ident lookup on the smtp server. But it seems to be back today and I don't quite understand what could be the problem. I wrote a tiny perl script to test the connection to the server via localhost and I can consistently do 500 connections in 30 seconds. I don't see any other evidence of the smtp hanging up. But if I do an strace on the outgoing runner, it basically is working very slowly through a large memberlist. It will process a certain number, then hang a few seconds before it processes the next batch. The server is not loaded and I don't see any other evidence of problems. Do you have a small python script I can run to test out the localhost smtp that can maybe output some diagnostic information? Thanks Ricardo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Sapiro" To: "Ricardo Kleemann" Cc: "mailman-users" Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated? > Ricardo Kleemann wrote: > >>I have some more data on this... >> >>I enabled the debug in SMTPDirect.py, and it shows that there really >>aren't any problems. It shows that slowly a message is being sent out. > > > So your real issue is why is it proceeding so slowly. > > >>I followed the performance tuning suggestions that had the MAX_RCPTS in >>Defaults.py at an optimal value from 2-5, so I set it to 3. > > > Is the MTA doing DNS verification on incoming mail from Mailman? Are > you having some DNS issue? > > >>But does that mean that mailman is going to simply get stuck on one >>single message distribution and won't process any others until this one >>is finished? > > > Yes. > > >>I used to have these lists on another server and over there I had the >>MAX_RCPTS set to a high number, but my mail server is set to reject >>above 25 rcpts anyway so the end result that at max it would handle 25 >>rcpts. I remember that whenever a message arrived for the list (again >>20,000 members) on the other server, the load average on the server >>would go pretty high as it processed the list. >> >>But now on this new server I never see the load avg go up. Is this >>because of the MAX_RCPTS setting? What else would keep mailman from >>efficiently handling the messages? > > > Slow response from the MTA. Even with SMTP_MAX_RCPTS set to 3, you > should be delivering on the order of 100 or more recipients per > second. What do you see in Mailman's smtp log for processing tomes for > messages. How do the latest ones compare to those from days or a week > ago? > > >>The OutgoingRunner is just sitting there slowly distributing the message >>and never seems to get to the next one. > > > It will when it finishes this one. > > -- > Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, > San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan > > From brad at fineby.me.uk Mon Dec 1 20:08:20 2008 From: brad at fineby.me.uk (Brad Rogers) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:08:20 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Administrivia intercept not working. Message-ID: <20081201190820.1cd0634a@abydos.stargate.org.uk> Hello All, I run a small mailing list which under version 2.1.11 of Mailman. A while ago, an unsubscribe message came to the list rather than be intercepted and acted upon. I thought nothing of it at the time, but a similar occurrence on another list (to which I subscribe but do not have admin priveleges) prompted me to look closer at my settings. Admin messages to the list are supposed to be intercepted, but for some reason, this one (actually, there were several from the same person) wasn't. Obviously something amiss. The other list runs under v2.1.9 of MM. I can forward copies of messages (with headers) if required so those of you more knowledgeable than me can see what's happening. Finally, I only have web access to my Mailman list settings (via cPanel) as the list is run by my domain provider's servers, not locally. Therefore, I can't alter code directly. What access the list owner of the second list has, I don't know. Thanks, in advance, for all assistance. -- Regards _ / ) "The blindingly obvious is / _)rad never immediately apparent" -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 1 22:19:28 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:19:28 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Site Admin email Problem In-Reply-To: <49344CB6.4060405@calarts.edu> Message-ID: Sean Murphy wrote: >Mark Sapiro wrote: >> >> When sent, the mail is sent to mailman-owner at ... (or whatever the name >> of the site list is). You can test if this mail is deliverable by just >> mailing anything to that address. >> > >I checked the mm_cfg.py and then the defaults.py it is currently set to >manual, that should be good. So I think the email address for the site >admin is incorrect. I did a couple of searches in those files above >with no luck. Where do I change the "site admin's" email address? As I said, the mail is sent to mailman-owner at ... (assuming the site list is named 'mailman' and is ultimately sent to the owner of that list. Go to the admin web interface for the 'mailman' list (something like http://www.example.com/mailman/admin/mailman/), log in and set 'owner' (The list administrator email addresses. Multiple administrator addresses, each on separate line is okay.) -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 1 23:46:29 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:46:29 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated? In-Reply-To: <01f401c953ee$1db28390$2eac170a@LA.FRD.DIRECTV.COM> Message-ID: Ricardo Kleemann wrote: > >I wrote a tiny perl script to test the connection to the server via >localhost and I can consistently do 500 connections in 30 seconds. I don't >see any other evidence of the smtp hanging up. The connection rate is generally not an issue as Mailman normall does all the transactions over a single connection. I.e. it connects, does a "MAIL FROM" one or more "RCPT TO", and "DATA", and then begins another "MAIL FROM", etc transaction without quitting or disconnectiing. >But if I do an strace on the outgoing runner, it basically is working very >slowly through a large memberlist. It will process a certain number, then >hang a few seconds before it processes the next batch. The server is not >loaded and I don't see any other evidence of problems. If there are significant delays between sending RCPT TO and the responce from the server, the server is probably doing DNS verifies on the recipients. This kills performance on large lists. What's it doing when it "hangs for a few seconds"? Presumably it is either sending the message content or waiting for a reply from the MTA. >Do you have a small python script I can run to test out the localhost smtp >that can maybe output some diagnostic information? No. I don't have any such script. As I said in previous posts >Even with SMTP_MAX_RCPTS set to 3, you >should be delivering on the order of 100 or more recipients per >second. What do you see in Mailman's smtp log for processing tomes for >messages. How do the latest ones compare to those from days or a week >ago? and >Search the FAQ for "tuning". -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Tue Dec 2 00:07:04 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:07:04 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Administrivia intercept not working. In-Reply-To: <20081201190820.1cd0634a@abydos.stargate.org.uk> Message-ID: Brad Rogers wrote: > >I run a small mailing list which under version 2.1.11 of Mailman. A >while ago, an unsubscribe message came to the list rather than be >intercepted and acted upon. I thought nothing of it at the time, but >a similar occurrence on another list (to which I subscribe but do not >have admin priveleges) prompted me to look closer at my settings. Admin >messages to the list are supposed to be intercepted, but for some >reason, this one (actually, there were several from the same person) >wasn't. Obviously something amiss. The other list runs under v2.1.9 of >MM. A message really has to look like a command that would be sent to the -request address to be classed as administrivia. There are several tests, but here's a summary: If the message has more than DEFAULT_MAIL_COMMANDS_MAX_LINES (default 25) non-blank body lines preceeding a signature ("-- ") separator it is not administrivia. Thus the typical message that says "unsubscribe me" followed without an intervening "-- " line by a quote of a 50 line post is not administrivia. Then if the message body has exactly one word and that word is one of the words in this list 'confirm' 'help' 'info' 'lists' 'options' 'password' 'remove' 'set' 'subscribe' 'unsubscribe' 'who' the message is administrivia. Then if the message body is more than one word, it is administrivia if the subject or one of the first 5 non-blank body lines begins with one of the above words and has the right number of following words to be a syntactically valid email command. All other messages are not administrivia. >I can forward copies of messages (with headers) if required so those of >you more knowledgeable than me can see what's happening. If the above doesn't explain it, You can send me a sample message. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From brad at shub-internet.org Tue Dec 2 07:08:51 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 00:08:51 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated? In-Reply-To: <01f401c953ee$1db28390$2eac170a@LA.FRD.DIRECTV.COM> References: <01f401c953ee$1db28390$2eac170a@LA.FRD.DIRECTV.COM> Message-ID: <4934D0F3.60007@shub-internet.org> on 12/1/08 1:50 PM, Ricardo Kleemann said: > But if I do an strace on the outgoing runner, it basically is working > very slowly through a large memberlist. It will process a certain > number, then hang a few seconds before it processes the next batch. The > server is not loaded and I don't see any other evidence of problems. That sounds like your MTA is doing DNS lookups for each and every envelope recipient as you try to transmit mail. That needs to be fixed, and is one of the many "performance" tuning techniques that is discussed in the FAQ Wiki. -- Brad Knowles LinkedIn Profile: From mitra_swapan at hotmail.com Mon Dec 1 12:58:32 2008 From: mitra_swapan at hotmail.com (swapan mitra) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 11:58:32 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Multiple subscribers set in mailman Message-ID: Hi, I am new to mailman and I have List Administrator access only to the mailing list. Can I do the following and if yes how can I do that: We have series of messages (all messages are interlinked by topic) which we want to share with our mailing list subscribers. Now this is fine with already subscribed mailing list members. But who joins new into the same Mailing list we want to send them, messages from the first one and onwards how can we do that? As the new subscribers are only receives the current messages they will find meaning less content. I hope I can get some solutions for this. I am looking forward to have a solution for the requirement. Thanks in advance. Mr. Swapan Kumar Mitra Kolkata, WB, India. Mob:+91 0 98303 34580 E-mail Disclaimer This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation. _________________________________________________________________ Wish to Marry Now? Join MSN Matrimony FREE! http://in.msn.com/matrimony From amosglenn at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 20:01:32 2008 From: amosglenn at gmail.com (Amos Glenn) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:01:32 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Lapsed domain name Message-ID: <7a352ac10812011101t78e2142bya2abf45ec31ab967@mail.gmail.com> Hi everyone- I couldn't find an answer to this question in any of my searches, so I'm asking the list. I feel pretty stupid making the assumptions I did to get myself into this mess, but here it goes: Some time ago, I was asked to administer a mailing list for a group under their domain name. When the community never developed, the group asking me to administer basically disbanded. I thought nothing of it until a few months ago, I learned that people were still receiving monthly reminders from Mailman of their list information. They want me to turn the list off so the people who had subscribed will stop receiving monthly reminders of the disappointing end of the list. But between then and now, the group let the domain name lapse and someone else now owns the domain name. Thus I can no longer get to the Mailman list admin website to turn the list off. I contacted the web host and they were "unresponsive." Is there some other way to stop the list? Thanks very much, Amos From smurphy at calarts.edu Mon Dec 1 21:44:38 2008 From: smurphy at calarts.edu (Sean Murphy) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 12:44:38 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Site Admin email Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49344CB6.4060405@calarts.edu> Mark Sapiro wrote: > Sean Murphy wrote: > >> Mailman used to send me an email as the "site admin" that a new list has >> been created. I use the web interface to create new lists. This email >> had the aliases I needed to add to the /etc/mail/aliases file in the >> body of the email. I have upgraded Mailman months ago but didn't >> notice that I had not been receiving this until now as the lists were >> already setup. >> >> I know I can run the genaliases command to get the same output but I >> fear I am not seeing all of the mailman site admin email. >> >> Is the email sent from a python script to an alias? is it specified in a >> config file? > > > This mail is only sent if MTA = 'Manual'. If you have MTA = 'Postfix' > or MTA = None in mm_cfg.py, no aliases mail will be sent. > > When sent, the mail is sent to mailman-owner at ... (or whatever the name > of the site list is). You can test if this mail is deliverable by just > mailing anything to that address. > I checked the mm_cfg.py and then the defaults.py it is currently set to manual, that should be good. So I think the email address for the site admin is incorrect. I did a couple of searches in those files above with no luck. Where do I change the "site admin's" email address? Thanks From adam at whydcs.com Mon Dec 1 21:49:36 2008 From: adam at whydcs.com (Adam Corley) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 15:49:36 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How about throttling? Message-ID: <1228164576.10307.3.camel@boomer2> I've read everything I can find about throttling mailman. Everything I found said it cannot be done. Any hope? Mailman is the slickest, easy-to-use mailer out there and I'd really like to continue using it. We just need to find a way to throttle it on shared hosting! Thanks! adam -- Too much junk mail? Ask us about MailSAINT! --- Adam Corley President Digital Core Solutions, Inc. Fremont, MI 49412 Toll Free: 1-866-219-0727 www.WhyDCS.com Map: http://www.whydcs.com/images/map.jpg --- From Support at computerbroadcastnetwork.com Mon Dec 1 22:56:34 2008 From: Support at computerbroadcastnetwork.com (support) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 15:56:34 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Check_perms issues Message-ID: <1228168594.7517.1.camel@computerbroadcastnetwork.com> What does this all mean? Re-run as list (or root) with -f flag to fix root at computerbroadcastnetwork:/etc# check_perms -f /var/lib/mailman/templates bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) /var/lib/mailman/logs bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) /var/lib/mailman/cgi-bin bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) /var/lib/mailman/Mailman bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) /var/lib/mailman/locks bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) /var/lib/mailman/cron bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) /var/lib/mailman/pythonlib bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) /var/lib/mailman/scripts bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) /var/lib/mailman/mail bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) /var/lib/mailman/bin bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) /var/lib/mailman/icons bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) Problems found: 11 Re-run as list (or root) with -f flag to fix From smurphy at calarts.edu Tue Dec 2 00:33:51 2008 From: smurphy at calarts.edu (Sean Murphy) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 15:33:51 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How do I change the host_name preference Message-ID: <4934745F.1070205@calarts.edu> In the general options admin page there is a setting "Host name this list prefers for email." When I create a list it uses "calarts.edu" in the field but I would like it to automatically use the FQDN "server.calarts.edu". Is there a way to set it permanently for all new list on creations. Thanks From bjk at comauth.co.nz Tue Dec 2 09:10:54 2008 From: bjk at comauth.co.nz (bjk at comauth.co.nz) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:10:54 +1300 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Cannot Create a New List Message-ID: <027201c95455$829b77f0$0501a8c0@SEOWS1> Hi there Have spent an hour trawling through FAQ / Archives etc, but I can't find a match for my current predicament. :-) We have installed Mailman via cpanel / Fantastico on www.claverton-energy.com and have a Mailing List which has worked perfectly for a couple of weeks at; http://claverton-energy.com/mailman/admin/claverton-group_claverton-energy.c om However, the site owner now wants a new list created. The problem is, the link to do this; http://claverton-energy.com/mailman/create - generates a 404 Page Not Found Error... None of the documentation / trouble-shooting anticipates that particular circumstance - and we have absolutely no idea what to do to resolve it! :-) Some advice / help would be appreciated. Kind regards Ben Kemp Webmaster @ Claverton Energy Kind regards Ben Kemp From joer at mrkgroup.com Tue Dec 2 19:24:16 2008 From: joer at mrkgroup.com (Joe Ruffolo) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 12:24:16 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Having a number of problems Message-ID: <709E29262CE6422FA2A5DA0895288DC2@mrk.local> I've been trying for weeks to get mailman up and running. Im very new to Linux, mailman, apache and all the MTA's. I've followed all the write up's but can never seem to get mailman to work correctly. Right now im at the point where if I create a newlist it will send an email to the administrator of that list (me) but the links (URLS) it sends in the email do not work (I get page not found errors). After fooling around and looking around I was able to access the web management part of mailman ( by total luck I was tooling around and in /var/mail/ i found an email that had the same URL on it and i copy and pasted it and it worked. It only works on the server in which mailman runs on) so I can administer my lists from there. The problem is I can mass subscribe a billion people and they actually receive the welcome to such and such list but they cant email that list. I don't know where the email goes. Afew days ago i was getting mailer daemon errors. I also cant access the links to that list as well. What am I missing here! I am using sendmail as my MTA Thanks in advnace! Joe From rusty0918 at comcast.net Tue Dec 2 21:14:40 2008 From: rusty0918 at comcast.net (Russell Christiansen) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:14:40 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] New User trying to get Mailman, Apache2, Postfix working on Ubuntu LTS Server 8.04 for Internet Message-ID: <000001c954ba$9c6d9f90$d548deb0$@net> OK. Someone and I have been attempting to get Mailman working under the ubuntu platform. I've recently installed the Apache2 Web Server, Postfix, and Maliman onto my machine. Presently, I'm using Ubuntu LTS Server 8.04, mostly due to the fact that I'm not sure that all this will work on a desktop configuration. I pretty much follow everything on the Ubuntu Server Guide in getting Apache2, Postfix, and Mailman working. Of course I configure Postfix to work with mailman, (tweaking the mm_cfg.py of course). The computer name I set on the installation was computerbroadcastnetwork, though I went inside the hosts and changed the "computerbroadcastnetwork" to "computerbroadcastnetwork.com" and set the local address to 127.0.0.1 instead of 127.0.1.1, hoping that would alleviate any problems. I can get the UI interface working somewhat on my own system, but not on external systems. When I try to create a new list, and type in my E-mail address to be notified, it will NOT send. OK here's the information: The host name should be "computerbroadcastnetwork.com" I don't think all the installation guides or anything are going to cut the mustard for me here. I need the best way to get Mailman working on my system, and to work correctly on the web. FYI, my network is a local LAN which uses DHCP. Do I need a DHCP3 server? I hope one of you can assist me in getting this working on my machine. It's been a real pain. - Russell Christiansen (rusty0918 at comcast.net) From Rusty0918 at comcast.net Tue Dec 2 21:21:54 2008 From: Rusty0918 at comcast.net (Rusty0918) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 12:21:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] New User trying to get Mailman, Apache2, Postfix working on Ubuntu LTS Server 8.04 for Internet Message-ID: <20781314.post@talk.nabble.com> OK. Someone and I have been attempting to get Mailman working under the ubuntu platform. I've recently installed the Apache2 Web Server, Postfix, and Maliman onto my machine. Presently, I'm using Ubuntu LTS Server 8.04, mostly due to the fact that I'm not sure that all this will work on a desktop configuration. I pretty much follow everything on the Ubuntu Server Guide in getting Apache2, Postfix, and Mailman working. Of course I configure Postfix to work with mailman, (tweaking the mm_cfg.py of course). The computer name I set on the installation was computerbroadcastnetwork, though I went inside the hosts and changed the "computerbroadcastnetwork" to "computerbroadcastnetwork.com" and set the local address to 127.0.0.1 instead of 127.0.1.1, hoping that would alleviate any problems. I can get the UI interface working somewhat on my own system, but not on external systems. When I try to create a new list, and type in my E-mail address to be notified, it will NOT send. OK here's the information: The host name should be "computerbroadcastnetwork.com" I don't think all the installation guides or anything are going to cut the mustard for me here. I need the best way to get Mailman working on my system, and to work correctly on the web. FYI, my network is a local LAN which uses DHCP. Do I need a DHCP3 server? I hope one of you can assist me in getting this working on my machine. It's been a real pain. -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/New-User-trying-to-get-Mailman%2C-Apache2%2C-Postfix-working-on-Ubuntu-LTS-Server-8.04-for-Internet-tp20781314p20781314.html Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. From dominik at zaeuner.eu Wed Dec 3 16:41:50 2008 From: dominik at zaeuner.eu (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Dominik_Z=E4uner?=) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:41:50 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with MySQL MemberAdaptor and Mailman 2.1.9 Message-ID: <4936A8BE.7030609@zaeuner.eu> Hi all, I'm currently using a preconfigured system with Exim 4.66 and Mailman 2.1.9. I additionally added MySQL MemberAdaptor according to the instrucitons at: http://loeki.tv/log/archives/81-Setting-up-Mailman-to-store-members-in-a-MySQL-database.html Now everything works fine as long I'm just using the web interface for adding/removing user or directly add/remove them in the database. BUT: If a user subscribes via mail to -request, he gets a correct confirmation and welcome mail, but never is added to the database but to the list's "normal" config-file. Any suggestions what I can do to fix this? Regards, Dominik Z?uner From mark at msapiro.net Wed Dec 3 17:41:04 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:41:04 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Multiple subscribers set in mailman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: swapan mitra wrote: > >I am new to mailman and I have List Administrator access only to the mailing list. >Can I do the following and if yes how can I do that: >We have series of messages (all messages are interlinked by topic) which we want to share with our mailing list subscribers. Now this is fine with already subscribed mailing list members. But who joins new into the same Mailing list we want to send them, messages from the first one and onwards how can we do that? As the new subscribers are only receives the current messages they will find meaning less content. I hope I can get some solutions for this. Mailman can't mail the old messages to new subscribers. The new subscribers have to read the old messages in the list's archive. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From stephen at xemacs.org Wed Dec 3 17:48:55 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 01:48:55 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Multiple subscribers set in mailman In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87ljuxxkzs.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> swapan mitra writes: > We have series of messages (all messages are interlinked by topic) > which we want to share with our mailing list subscribers. Now this > is fine with already subscribed mailing list members. But who joins > new into the same Mailing list we want to send them, messages from > the first one and onwards how can we do that? You can't do that in Mailman, and you would likely find both new subscribers and their Internet providers would be annoyed. What you can do is enable the public archiving feature. Then users can visit the archives and browse the threads (topics) that they are interested in at their own convenience. From mark at msapiro.net Wed Dec 3 17:46:55 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:46:55 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Lapsed domain name In-Reply-To: <7a352ac10812011101t78e2142bya2abf45ec31ab967@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Amos Glenn wrote: > >But between then and now, the group let the domain name lapse and someone >else now owns the domain name. Thus I can no longer get to the Mailman list >admin website to turn the list off. Access the web admin interface using the IP address of the server rather than the domain name in the host part of the URL. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From Chris.Johnson at sekoworldwide.com Wed Dec 3 17:45:36 2008 From: Chris.Johnson at sekoworldwide.com (Chris Johnson) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:45:36 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Having a number of problems In-Reply-To: <709E29262CE6422FA2A5DA0895288DC2@mrk.local> References: <709E29262CE6422FA2A5DA0895288DC2@mrk.local> Message-ID: <9D55E024B821DB4F9A96E97E5A3CAF31102B7B00ED@exch01.corp.sekoww.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Ruffolo [mailto:joer at mrkgroup.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 12:24 PM > To: mailman-users at python.org > Subject: [Mailman-Users] Having a number of problems > > I've been trying for weeks to get mailman up and running. Im very new > to > Linux, mailman, apache and all the MTA's. > > I've followed all the write up's but can never seem to get mailman to > work > correctly. > > Right now im at the point where if I create a newlist it will send an > email > to the administrator of that list (me) but the links (URLS) it sends in > the > email do not work (I get page not found errors). > > After fooling around and looking around I was able to access the web > management part of mailman ( by total luck I was tooling around and in > /var/mail/ i found an email that had the same URL on it and i copy and > pasted it and it worked. It only works on the server in which mailman > runs > on) so I can administer my lists from there. > > The problem is > > I can mass subscribe a billion people and they actually receive the > welcome > to such and such list but they cant email that list. I don't know > where the > email goes. Afew days ago i was getting mailer daemon errors. > > I also cant access the links to that list as well. > > What am I missing here! Do you have a DNS entry for the host and domain name? Since it's working from the localhost I'd expect that you can't resolve the name in the link from the list. Try the command 'nslookup hostname.domain.com' (without quotes and replace hostname.domain.com with your lists fqdn). Run the command from the local machine and from a remote machine and compare the results. If you can get dns resolution from the remote contact your ISP or hosting provider to add the machine's name to dns. > > I am using sendmail as my MTA > > Thanks in advnace! > > Joe > This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual addressee(s) named above. If you are not an intended recipient or believe you have received this e-mail in error, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy it, you should notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and you should delete the e-mail. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this e-mail or any virus which may accompany or be located in this e-mail. From stephen at xemacs.org Wed Dec 3 17:57:23 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 01:57:23 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Lapsed domain name In-Reply-To: <7a352ac10812011101t78e2142bya2abf45ec31ab967@mail.gmail.com> References: <7a352ac10812011101t78e2142bya2abf45ec31ab967@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <87k5ahxklo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Amos Glenn writes: > But between then and now, the group let the domain name lapse and someone > else now owns the domain name. Thus I can no longer get to the Mailman list > admin website to turn the list off. > > I contacted the web host and they were "unresponsive." What do you mean by "web host"? The owners of the domain name? They very likely can't do anything about it anyway, because they have no access to the hardware where Mailman is actually running. In that case you simply need to get in touch with the service that was running Mailman for you. If you mean the host where Mailman is running is unresponsive, there is nothing you can do except call the cops and tell them the host is spamming your ex subscribers and won't stop. From mark at msapiro.net Wed Dec 3 17:56:10 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:56:10 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How about throttling? In-Reply-To: <1228164576.10307.3.camel@boomer2> Message-ID: Adam Corley wrote: >I've read everything I can find about throttling mailman. Everything I >found said it cannot be done. Right. >Any hope? >Mailman is the slickest, easy-to-use mailer out there and I'd really >like to continue using it. We just need to find a way to throttle it on >shared hosting! You could modify Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py to limit the number of recipients sent per minute/hour/whatever, but if you do this, you need to be sure you don't set the limit too low or Mailman's out/ queue will become backlogged and all messages from Mailman will be delayed by hours/days depending on how severe the backlog is. Anything other than a simple, installation wide limit would require a major modification to Mailman's outgoing mail processing. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Wed Dec 3 18:05:19 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:05:19 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Check_perms issues In-Reply-To: <1228168594.7517.1.camel@computerbroadcastnetwork.com> Message-ID: support wrote: >What does this all mean? > >Re-run as list (or root) with -f flag to fix >root at computerbroadcastnetwork:/etc# check_perms -f >/var/lib/mailman/templates bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) >/var/lib/mailman/logs bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) >/var/lib/mailman/cgi-bin bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) >/var/lib/mailman/Mailman bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) >/var/lib/mailman/locks bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) >/var/lib/mailman/cron bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) >/var/lib/mailman/pythonlib bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) >/var/lib/mailman/scripts bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) >/var/lib/mailman/mail bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) >/var/lib/mailman/bin bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) >/var/lib/mailman/icons bad group (has: root, expected list) (fixing) >Problems found: 11 >Re-run as list (or root) with -f flag to fix If it happens once, it means check_perms has done it's job. If you run check_perms -f several times with the same result every time, it means all those names are symlinks to the real directories, and check_perms sees the group of the symlink as 'root' and attempts to change it, but this sets the group of the target which is the only thing that matters anyway. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From stephen at xemacs.org Wed Dec 3 18:11:06 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 02:11:06 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Cannot Create a New List In-Reply-To: <027201c95455$829b77f0$0501a8c0@SEOWS1> References: <027201c95455$829b77f0$0501a8c0@SEOWS1> Message-ID: <87iqq1xjyt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> bjk at comauth.co.nz writes: > We have installed Mailman via cpanel / Fantastico on See http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Mailman+and+CPanel. cPanel has the general effect of making you entirely dependent on the host; we can't help. > However, the site owner now wants a new list created. The problem is, the > link to do this; http://claverton-energy.com/mailman/create - generates a > 404 Page Not Found Error... None of the documentation / trouble-shooting > anticipates that particular circumstance - and we have absolutely no idea > what to do to resolve it! :-) Talk to your service provider. They broke their installation, they have to fix it. We can't do it or tell you how to do it; that would require hacking into their machine, which is unethical, not to mention illegal. If *you* installed Mailman and cPanel, that's a different story, but you'll have to talk to the vendor of cPanel. Or you can forget cPanel and we'll explain how to install Mailman properly. From mark at msapiro.net Wed Dec 3 18:09:30 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:09:30 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] New User trying to get Mailman, Apache2, Postfix working on Ubuntu LTS Server 8.04 for Internet In-Reply-To: <20781314.post@talk.nabble.com> Message-ID: Rusty0918 wrote: > >I don't think all the installation guides or anything are going to cut the >mustard for me here. I need the best way to get Mailman working on my >system, and to work correctly on the web. > >FYI, my network is a local LAN which uses DHCP. Do I need a DHCP3 server? You need appropriate DNS and router configuration so that traffic for computerbroadcastnetwork.com from outside your lan is properly routed to your host. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Wed Dec 3 18:13:27 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:13:27 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How do I change the host_name preference In-Reply-To: <4934745F.1070205@calarts.edu> Message-ID: Sean Murphy wrote: >In the general options admin page there is a setting "Host name this >list prefers for email." > >When I create a list it uses "calarts.edu" in the field but I would like >it to automatically use the FQDN "server.calarts.edu". > >Is there a way to set it permanently for all new list on creations. See the "Changing hostnames" section of the FAQ at . -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Wed Dec 3 18:32:05 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:32:05 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with MySQL MemberAdaptor and Mailman 2.1.9 In-Reply-To: <4936A8BE.7030609@zaeuner.eu> Message-ID: Dominik Z?uner wrote: > >I additionally added MySQL MemberAdaptor according to the instrucitons at: >http://loeki.tv/log/archives/81-Setting-up-Mailman-to-store-members-in-a-MySQL-database.html > >Now everything works fine as long I'm just using the web interface for >adding/removing user or directly add/remove them in the database. > >BUT: If a user subscribes via mail to -request, he gets a correct >confirmation and welcome mail, but never is added to the database but to >the list's "normal" config-file. Have you restarted Mailman since adding the lists/LISTNAME/extend.py file? -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From Jan at Bytesmiths.com Wed Dec 3 18:33:42 2008 From: Jan at Bytesmiths.com (Jan Steinman) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:33:42 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Lapsed domain name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: "Amos Glenn" > > ... the group let the domain name lapse and someone > else now owns the domain name. Thus I can no longer get to the > Mailman list > admin website to turn the list off. > > I contacted the web host and they were "unresponsive." Don't get me started on this topic! I have been fighting to reinstate a lapsed domain name for one of my clients for a YEAR now! The original registrar (RegisterFly -- avoid like the plague!) went bankrupt, and they went dark for a couple months, and didn't notify my client their name lapsed. Then another registrar took over the name, again without notifying the registrant. Now RegisterFly is re-org'd and back in business, but they won't reinstate the name, pointing to the other registrar (ENOM), who points back. WHAT A MESS! Moral of the story, don't EVER let a domain name lapse if you think you might want it again. Unless you've got very deep pockets. > Is there some other way to stop the list? On the other hand, I'm amazed it is still up and running. I would write to the new owners, pointing out that it is in their best interest to stop this "parasitic" use of their resources, that they are paying for. If that doesn't get results, I'd start slamming the list with thousands of messages (yea, I know, unkind to the hapless subscribers) in the hope that all the bounces and admin backscatter will spur the new domain owner into action. :::: Securely there being a gradation which is done the picture whose also noise is little, seeing, is feeling difference potato. -- from a Google translation of a Japanese camera review :::: :::: Jan Steinman http://www.VeggieVanGogh.com :::: From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org Wed Dec 3 18:12:56 2008 From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 09:12:56 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Multiple subscribers set in mailman In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081203173856.6B399121CEB@friskymail-a4.g.dreamhost.com> Mark Sapiro wrote at 08:41 AM 12/3/2008: >>We have series of messages (all messages are interlinked by topic) which we want to share with our mailing list subscribers. Now this is fine with already subscribed mailing list members. But who joins new into the same Mailing list we want to send them, messages from the first one and onwards how can we do that? As the new subscribers are only receives the current messages they will find meaning less content. I hope I can get some solutions for this. > >Mailman can't mail the old messages to new subscribers. The new >subscribers have to read the old messages in the list's archive. Right. But you could do one of the following: 1. Put the info in the Welcome message 2. Put links to the messages you want new folks to read in the Welcome message 3. Put the stuff you want new members to read on a web page, and provide a link to that. - - - - - - - - - - - - Michael Welch, volunteer Redwood Alliance PO Box 293 Arcata, CA 95518 707-822-7884 mwelch at redwoodalliance.org www.redwoodalliance.org From brad at shub-internet.org Wed Dec 3 19:04:18 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 12:04:18 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How about throttling? In-Reply-To: <1228164576.10307.3.camel@boomer2> References: <1228164576.10307.3.camel@boomer2> Message-ID: <4936CA22.8080502@shub-internet.org> Adam Corley wrote: > I've read everything I can find about throttling mailman. Everything I > found said it cannot be done. The final answer to this question is in the FAQ Wiki. Search for "throttle". -- Brad Knowles LinkedIn Profile: From brad at shub-internet.org Wed Dec 3 19:08:28 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 12:08:28 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Cannot Create a New List In-Reply-To: <027201c95455$829b77f0$0501a8c0@SEOWS1> References: <027201c95455$829b77f0$0501a8c0@SEOWS1> Message-ID: <4936CB1C.7010606@shub-internet.org> bjk at comauth.co.nz wrote: > Have spent an hour trawling through FAQ / Archives etc, but I can't find a > match for my current predicament. :-) > > We have installed Mailman via cpanel / Fantastico on > www.claverton-energy.com and have a Mailing List which has worked perfectly > for a couple of weeks at; > http://claverton-energy.com/mailman/admin/claverton-group_claverton-energy.c > om Search the FAQ Wiki for "cpanel". > However, the site owner now wants a new list created. The problem is, the > link to do this; http://claverton-energy.com/mailman/create - generates a > 404 Page Not Found Error... None of the documentation / trouble-shooting > anticipates that particular circumstance - and we have absolutely no idea > what to do to resolve it! :-) You need to talk to your provider. There's nothing we can do to help you. Only they have access to the log files in question that would give more details regarding the true nature of the problem. If they are not responsive, then you might want to think about trying to find a different provider. Unfortunately, this is a very typical problem of many cpanel customers. -- Brad Knowles LinkedIn Profile: From Jan at Bytesmiths.com Wed Dec 3 19:16:59 2008 From: Jan at Bytesmiths.com (Jan Steinman) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:16:59 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Lapsed domain name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2FDFA7A4-72EC-4460-94A1-FCCF98F5264C@Bytesmiths.com> > From: Jan Steinman > > I'd start slamming the list with thousands of messages (yea, I know, > unkind to the hapless subscribers) in the hope that all the bounces > and admin backscatter will spur the new domain owner into action. Before everyone starts jumping all over me for writing this, I should have bracketed that with ... Please don't do that. Mark's suggestion that you politely tell the hosting service that the list will be reported to various spam cops as a spam site should get results. Do "whois domainname" to find out the email addresses of people who can help you. :::: The Earth isn't a pizza. You can't dial up and have one delivered! -- Alf :::: :::: Jan Steinman :::: From dominik at zaeuner.eu Wed Dec 3 18:56:18 2008 From: dominik at zaeuner.eu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dominik_Z=E4uner?=) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 18:56:18 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with MySQL MemberAdaptor and Mailman 2.1.9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4936C842.5090305@zaeuner.eu> Mark Sapiro wrote: > Have you restarted Mailman since adding the lists/LISTNAME/extend.py > file? I really thought I did, but it helped. Thanks. From Rusty0918 at comcast.net Wed Dec 3 18:14:42 2008 From: Rusty0918 at comcast.net (Rusty0918) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:14:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] New User trying to get Mailman, Apache2, Postfix working on Ubuntu LTS Server 8.04 for Internet In-Reply-To: References: <20781314.post@talk.nabble.com> Message-ID: <20817288.post@talk.nabble.com> And how exactly do I do that? I've been trying different ways to get Mailman to work properly, and frankly I'm at a big loss, and I mean a big loss. -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/New-User-trying-to-get-Mailman%2C-Apache2%2C-Postfix-working-on-Ubuntu-LTS-Server-8.04-for-Internet-tp20781314p20817288.html Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. From stephen at xemacs.org Wed Dec 3 19:28:27 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 03:28:27 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Lapsed domain name In-Reply-To: References: <7a352ac10812011101t78e2142bya2abf45ec31ab967@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <87hc5lxgdw.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Mark Sapiro writes: > Amos Glenn wrote: > > > >But between then and now, the group let the domain name lapse and someone > >else now owns the domain name. Thus I can no longer get to the Mailman list > >admin website to turn the list off. > > Access the web admin interface using the IP address of the server > rather than the domain name in the host part of the URL. Will that actually work in a virtual hosting environment? From brad at shub-internet.org Wed Dec 3 19:29:06 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 12:29:06 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] New User trying to get Mailman, Apache2, Postfix working on Ubuntu LTS Server 8.04 for Internet In-Reply-To: <20817288.post@talk.nabble.com> References: <20781314.post@talk.nabble.com> <20817288.post@talk.nabble.com> Message-ID: <4936CFF2.9080806@shub-internet.org> Rusty0918 wrote: > And how exactly do I do that? I've been trying different ways to get Mailman > to work properly, and frankly I'm at a big loss, and I mean a big loss. Those are questions that are not relevant to this mailing list. Try asking on a mailing list for one of your local Linux user groups, or on one of the various mailing lists or newsgroups relating to Linux. -- Brad Knowles LinkedIn Profile: From brad at shub-internet.org Wed Dec 3 19:30:34 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 12:30:34 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Lapsed domain name In-Reply-To: <87hc5lxgdw.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <7a352ac10812011101t78e2142bya2abf45ec31ab967@mail.gmail.com> <87hc5lxgdw.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <4936D04A.4080206@shub-internet.org> Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > Access the web admin interface using the IP address of the server > > rather than the domain name in the host part of the URL. > > Will that actually work in a virtual hosting environment? Depends on how the virtual hosting environment was set up. If they gave you a unique IP address for your service (presumably so that you can do both HTTP and SSL-enabled HTTPS), then yes -- that should work. If not, then the OP may be screwed. -- Brad Knowles LinkedIn Profile: From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org Wed Dec 3 19:35:33 2008 From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 18:35:33 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Lapsed domain name In-Reply-To: <7a352ac10812011101t78e2142bya2abf45ec31ab967@mail.gmail.com> References: <7a352ac10812011101t78e2142bya2abf45ec31ab967@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Amos Glenn wrote: >But between then and now, the group let the domain name lapse and someone >else now owns the domain name. Thus I can no longer get to the Mailman list >admin website to turn the list off. There are a couple of techy ways you could do this: - Point the hosts file at the relevant IP address of the web server you use to manage the domain/Mailman setup, then point a web browser at it. It should work locally. - If you have a local DNS server, and you know the authoritative DNS servers provided by the original web host, create a stub zone with the relevant NS records pointing to those nameservers. When a client using that nameserver tries to resolve the relevant domain name, the DNS resolver should look up and return the records from the old webhost. Thanks. Andrew. From stephen at xemacs.org Wed Dec 3 20:45:29 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 04:45:29 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] New User trying to get Mailman, Apache2, Postfix working on Ubuntu LTS Server 8.04 for Internet In-Reply-To: <20817288.post@talk.nabble.com> References: <20781314.post@talk.nabble.com> <20817288.post@talk.nabble.com> Message-ID: <87fxl5xcti.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Rusty0918 writes: > And how exactly do I do that? I've been trying different ways to > get Mailman to work properly, and frankly I'm at a big loss, and I > mean a big loss. If "do that" refers to "configure the network routing and DNS services", you're asking in the wrong place. Try the Ubuntu forums, where you'll find people who are familiar with the configuration tools you'll need to use. You might also get help from your ISP, who will likely be the people doing any configuration of routing and DNS to and from the Internet. Can you access Apache at all from the LAN? How about the Internet? Can you send ordinary mail to the host from other hosts on the LAN? >From hosts on the Internet? Can your host send mail to other hosts on the LAN? How about out to the Internet? If your answer to any of the questions above is "no", you need to fix that problem before coming back here. From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Thu Dec 4 05:19:55 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 22:19:55 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Multiple subscribers set in mailman In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49375A6B.3030402@riverviewtech.net> On 12/01/2008 05:58 AM, swapan mitra wrote: > We have series of messages (all messages are interlinked by topic) > which we want to share with our mailing list subscribers. Now this is > fine with already subscribed mailing list members. But who joins new > into the same Mailing list we want to send them, messages from the > first one and onwards how can we do that? As the new subscribers are > only receives the current messages they will find meaning less > content. I hope I can get some solutions for this. As others have pointed out, you can point (new) subscribers to the mailing list archive. If you wanted to, you could set up the news gateway so that Maiman sends copies of posts to a news group on a news server and then have your (new) subscribers download individual messages from there. (I suspect that it might even be possible to get something to extract messages from either the archive or the news group and send individual messages to the (new) subscribers upon request.) Oh, don't worry, you are not alone in wanting this feature. I've given it some thought too. I'd love to find a way to ""request that individual messages are sent somewhere after the fact. Once I figure this out, it would be nice to extend the "...-request at ..." handler to support this. Grant. . . . From dandrews at visi.com Thu Dec 4 05:12:52 2008 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 22:12:52 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] New User trying to get Mailman, Apache2, Postfix working on Ubuntu LTS Server 8.04 for Internet In-Reply-To: <4936CFF2.9080806@shub-internet.org> References: <20781314.post@talk.nabble.com> <20817288.post@talk.nabble.com> <4936CFF2.9080806@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: At 12:29 PM 12/3/2008, Brad Knowles wrote: >Rusty0918 wrote: > >>However, the site owner now wants a new list created. The problem is, the >>link to do this; http://claverton-energy.com/mailman/create - generates a >>404 Page Not Found Error... None of the documentation / trouble-shooting >>anticipates that particular circumstance - and we have absolutely no idea >>what to do to resolve it! :-) You need to create the mailing list via cpanel itself, not the link in Mailman. David Andrews From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Thu Dec 4 05:29:46 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 22:29:46 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How about throttling? In-Reply-To: <1228164576.10307.3.camel@boomer2> References: <1228164576.10307.3.camel@boomer2> Message-ID: <49375CBA.3010301@riverviewtech.net> On 12/01/2008 02:49 PM, Adam Corley wrote: > Mailman is the slickest, easy-to-use mailer out there and I'd really > like to continue using it. We just need to find a way to throttle it > on shared hosting! I believe it is possible to have Mailman use the sendmail (binary / command) rather than SMTP direct to send emails. Is it possible to configure Mailman to instruct sendmail to use queued deliver and then let it worry about throttling delivery the way that it normally would? (I say sendmail but any MTA should be able to do this.) Rather than re-inventing the wheel, why not let something else that works do it for you? Grant. . . . From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Thu Dec 4 05:41:29 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 22:41:29 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Lapsed domain name In-Reply-To: References: <7a352ac10812011101t78e2142bya2abf45ec31ab967@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49375F79.2010502@riverviewtech.net> On 12/03/2008 12:35 PM, Andrew Hodgson wrote: > There are a couple of techy ways you could do this: > > - Point the hosts file at the relevant IP address of the web server > you use to manage the domain/Mailman setup, then point a web browser > at it. It should work locally. > > - If you have a local DNS server, and you know the authoritative DNS > servers provided by the original web host, create a stub zone with > the relevant NS records pointing to those nameservers. When a client > using that nameserver tries to resolve the relevant domain name, the > DNS resolver should look up and return the records from the old > webhost. Hat's off to you Andrew. I was going to recommend the exact same thing. I just wanted to see if any one else thought of this. I'll give a little more detail on how to do this so it is easier for the OP. On a Windows NT/2k/XP/2k3/2k8/Vista system, you need to edit the "hosts" file, which should be located in the %SystemRoot%\system32\drivers\etc directory (%SystemRoot% usually evaluates to C:\Windows or C:\WinNT depending on version). You need to add a new line any where in the file that has the IP address and a few spaces and the domain name (with or with out the www.). Close your web browser that you want to use, flush your DNS ("ipconfig /flushdns" at a command prompt, or just reboot), re-open your web browser and try the domain name. To remove the listing, just delete the line from the hosts file and re-flush things. On a unix system, you will need root (or comparable) access to edit the /etc/hosts file, with the same type of routine as above. I don't know a convenient way to flush DNS on a unix box, so just try closing and re-opening your web browser. On a Mac... Sorry, I don't know on a Mac. OS X (any release) should be similar to unix (seeing as how it is a BSD and all). As for Classic OS (1-9) I have *NO* clue. If any one wants an explanation as to why or how this works, just ask. Grant. . . . From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 4 05:46:56 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 20:46:56 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How about throttling? In-Reply-To: <49375CBA.3010301@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: Grant Taylor wrote: > >I believe it is possible to have Mailman use the sendmail (binary / >command) rather than SMTP direct to send emails. Yes, but read all the caveats and warnings in Mailman/Handlers/Sendmail.py. Don't do it. Besides, SMTPDirect delivers via the local MTA, so if you're going to implement throttling in the MTA (as we recommend in the FAQ - ), you still can use SMTPDirect. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From hansen at rc.org Thu Dec 4 10:39:05 2008 From: hansen at rc.org (Allan Hansen) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 01:39:05 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Admin access restrictions in 2.1.9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, I just upgraded my system from Mailman 2.1.5 to 2.1.9. After this change I am no longer able to use the 'Change globally' options when helping my subscribers change their subscription addresses or such. I have used mmsitepass to set a site administrator password (to be sure that that is the password I'm using). Looking at SecurityManager.py (I'm no Python wizzard) I get the impression that that password should let me do things globally, and this was, indeed, the case in 2.1.5. I have searched both the Wiki and the archive for info, but was not successful in finding it if it is there, sorry. How can I restore this ability? Thanks, Allan System: Mac OS/X 10.5.5 Server on iMac -- Allan Hansen P.O Box 2423 Cypress, CA 90630 U.S.A. hansen at rc.org +1-714-875-8870 From james at thereidsonline.com Thu Dec 4 11:29:18 2008 From: james at thereidsonline.com (James Reid) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 21:29:18 +1100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How about throttling? In-Reply-To: References: <49375CBA.3010301@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: <01c401c955fb$2ade1700$809a4500$@com> Hi Everyone, Why not try using outbound QOS (eg Shorewall)? I'm using it on one of my servers - works perfectly slowing down the amount of traffic that the server pushes out on to the network. Regards, James. -----Original Message----- From: mailman-users-bounces+james=thereidsonline.com at python.org [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+james=thereidsonline.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Mark Sapiro Sent: Thursday, 4 December 2008 3:47 PM To: Grant Taylor; Mail List - Mailman Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] How about throttling? Grant Taylor wrote: > >I believe it is possible to have Mailman use the sendmail (binary / >command) rather than SMTP direct to send emails. Yes, but read all the caveats and warnings in Mailman/Handlers/Sendmail.py. Don't do it. Besides, SMTPDirect delivers via the local MTA, so if you're going to implement throttling in the MTA (as we recommend in the FAQ - ), you still can use SMTPDirect. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan ------------------------------------------------------ Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/james%40thereidsonline. com Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 4 16:04:39 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 07:04:39 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How about throttling? In-Reply-To: <51713.202.12.233.23.1228371618.squirrel@secure.reidware.net> Message-ID: James Reid wrote: > >Why not simply use outbound QOS? > >I use it on my system and it works fine. > >In simple terms it equates to creating an artificial bottleneck on all >outbound SMTP traffic, "slowwing down mailman". None of these solutions will work for the OP who was concerned about Mailman dominating the MTA to the detriment of other traffic on a shared server. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 4 16:20:07 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 07:20:07 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Admin access restrictions in 2.1.9 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Allan Hansen wrote: > >I just upgraded my system from Mailman 2.1.5 to 2.1.9. After this change I am no longer >able to use the 'Change globally' options when helping my subscribers change their >subscription addresses or such. This was changed because it was considered a security issue to allow the owner of one list to change settings for a user on another list. A malicious owner could even mass subscribe a member of some other list and change that user's settings on the other list. >I have used mmsitepass to set a site administrator password (to be sure that that is the password I'm using). The site admin can still make global user changes, but in order for this to work you have to set ALLOW_SITE_ADMIN_COOKIES = Yes in mm_cfg.py. This is because in the absence of this setting, when you authenticate to a list with the site password, you get a list admin cookie, not a site admin cookie. See the comments above this setting in Defaults.py for why the default is No. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From knabe at 4j.lane.edu Thu Dec 4 16:58:02 2008 From: knabe at 4j.lane.edu (Troy Knabe) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 07:58:02 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't remove member Message-ID: <2A6EE607-FFC0-4157-AD56-94A13004E2E2@4j.lane.edu> I have a member who was added as a link and I cannot get remove_member to work. I even tried removing all members. Does anyone have any ideas on this one? The quotes are actually part of the member's entry. ahref="mailto:user at domain.com" From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 4 17:07:24 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 08:07:24 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't remove member In-Reply-To: <2A6EE607-FFC0-4157-AD56-94A13004E2E2@4j.lane.edu> Message-ID: Troy Knabe wrote: >I have a member who was added as a link and I cannot get remove_member >to work. I even tried removing all members. Does anyone have any >ideas on this one? The quotes are actually part of the member's entry. > > ahref="mailto:user at domain.com" See the FAQ at . -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From amos at amosglenn.com Thu Dec 4 02:10:58 2008 From: amos at amosglenn.com (Amos Glenn) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 20:10:58 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Lapsed domain name In-Reply-To: <87k5ahxklo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <7a352ac10812011101t78e2142bya2abf45ec31ab967@mail.gmail.com> <87k5ahxklo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <7a352ac10812031710g739b3644mfd7d730d67888048@mail.gmail.com> Stephen wins the cupie doll. The low-tech route was successful. "Unresponsive" turned to "very responsive with stunningly short turn around time" when the issue of spam was brought up in connection to various authorities (not the cops, though). Someone was spooked. Really, though, it's too bad; I was kinda looking forward to the tech challenge. Thanks for all your ideas and assistance. ~Amos On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Amos Glenn writes: > > > But between then and now, the group let the domain name lapse and > someone > > else now owns the domain name. Thus I can no longer get to the Mailman > list > > admin website to turn the list off. > > > > I contacted the web host and they were "unresponsive." > > What do you mean by "web host"? The owners of the domain name? They > very likely can't do anything about it anyway, because they have no > access to the hardware where Mailman is actually running. In that > case you simply need to get in touch with the service that was running > Mailman for you. > > If you mean the host where Mailman is running is unresponsive, there > is nothing you can do except call the cops and tell them the host is > spamming your ex subscribers and won't stop. > > -- Rev. R. Amos Glenn Pastor/Principal, Pittsburgh New Church and School 299 Le Roi Road, Pittsburgh, PA, 15208, USA www.amosglenn.com/contact www.pittsburghnewchurch.org From chippiemoose at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 23:20:05 2008 From: chippiemoose at gmail.com (Doug Roberts) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:20:05 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not delivering mail to recipients Message-ID: I'm wondering if you ever discovered a resolution to this? We're having the same problem. The people that originally configured everything are no longer around, and we're in way over our heads. Doug Roberts Marketing Department Chair www.cantr.net From esabens at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 01:20:05 2008 From: esabens at yahoo.com (Greg and Cheryl Sabens) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:20:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Footer question... Message-ID: <965199.39301.qm@web51603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I apologize in advance because I'm sure my questions below have been discussed over and over. I have search through Google and the Mailman FAQ and the archives. I see questions and answers that almost answer these questions of mine but just not quite. Question #1 So, I'm unclear about something concerning footers (mainly on the Non-digest options). It appears that whenever I create a footer, something (whether it's mailman or Yahoo!) is adding the following line: -----Inline Attachment Follows----- Can someone tell me where this is originating from. Sometime is looks like it from Mailman, but I have confirmed that it's not part of the footer that I created. But sometimes it seems to be in Yahoo! because when I receive the same email in Outlook and that text is not there. Question #2 Even beyond that, no matter which mail program/service I use (Yahoo! or Outlook), what footer I do create is attached to the email as an attachment. Again, I don't know what is causing that; 1) is Mailman sending it that way, or 2) are the mail programs/services forcing the footer (which does show up in the email body) to also be attached? I'd like to have a footer in the body of the email coming through my maillist, but I'd rally rather not have the "-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" text in the body or the footer included as an attachment to the email. Again, sorry if this is repetitive, but I couldn't find any thread or faq that spoke specifically to these questions...only close to it. Thank you in advance! Greg From Rusty0918 at comcast.net Wed Dec 3 20:50:02 2008 From: Rusty0918 at comcast.net (Rusty0918) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 11:50:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] New User trying to get Mailman, Apache2, Postfix working on Ubuntu LTS Server 8.04 for Internet In-Reply-To: <87fxl5xcti.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <20781314.post@talk.nabble.com> <20817288.post@talk.nabble.com> <87fxl5xcti.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <20820227.post@talk.nabble.com> You know, I can't access the Apache Web Server from the Internet. Though I seem to be able to via the home LAN using the IP. Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > Rusty0918 writes: > > > And how exactly do I do that? I've been trying different ways to > > get Mailman to work properly, and frankly I'm at a big loss, and I > > mean a big loss. > > If "do that" refers to "configure the network routing and DNS > services", you're asking in the wrong place. Try the Ubuntu forums, > where you'll find people who are familiar with the configuration tools > you'll need to use. You might also get help from your ISP, who will > likely be the people doing any configuration of routing and DNS to and > from the Internet. > > Can you access Apache at all from the LAN? How about the Internet? > Can you send ordinary mail to the host from other hosts on the LAN? >>From hosts on the Internet? Can your host send mail to other hosts on > the LAN? How about out to the Internet? If your answer to any of the > questions above is "no", you need to fix that problem before coming > back here. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Mailman-Users mailing list > Mailman-Users at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Searchable Archives: > http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/lists%40nabble.com > > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > > -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/New-User-trying-to-get-Mailman%2C-Apache2%2C-Postfix-working-on-Ubuntu-LTS-Server-8.04-for-Internet-tp20781314p20820227.html Sent from the Mailman - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 4 20:18:07 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:18:07 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not delivering mail to recipients In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Doug Roberts wrote: >I'm wondering if you ever discovered a resolution to this? We're >having the same problem. The people that originally configured >everything are no longer around, and we're in way over our heads. The subject question comes up on this list every week, and I suspect in >> 95% of the cases, the problem is resolved. We have tried to sumarize the requisite steps in the FAQ at . You may also be interested in the FAQ at . -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From rpyne at kinfolk.org Thu Dec 4 20:19:31 2008 From: rpyne at kinfolk.org (rpyne at kinfolk.org) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 12:19:31 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] ImportError: No module named message Message-ID: <4937CAD3.4472.5E5F040@rpyne.kinfolk.org> I am running Mailman 2.1.10. A few days ago I updated my Python to version 2.6 and everything looked good, list mail was flowing without problem. All of a sudden this afternoon, I started getting errors "ImportError: No module named message" on everything. This particular one is frim an attempt to re-install Mailman to make sure everything was up to date: /var/mailman/Mailman/Utils.py:32: DeprecationWarning: the sha module is deprecated; use the hashlib module instead import sha Traceback (most recent call last): File "/var/mailman/bin/mailmanctl", line 110, in from Mailman.MailList import MailList File "/var/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 51, in from Mailman.Archiver import Archiver File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/__init__.py", line 17, in from Archiver import * File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 32, in from Mailman import Mailbox File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Mailbox.py", line 21, in import mailbox File "/usr/lib/python2.6/mailbox.py", line 19, in import email.message ImportError: No module named message From brad at shub-internet.org Thu Dec 4 20:34:39 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 13:34:39 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Footer question... In-Reply-To: <965199.39301.qm@web51603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <965199.39301.qm@web51603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <493830CF.3020909@shub-internet.org> Greg and Cheryl Sabens wrote: > Can someone tell me where this is originating from. Sometime is looks > like it from Mailman, but I have confirmed that it's not part of the > footer that I created. But sometimes it seems to be in Yahoo! because > when I receive the same email in Outlook and that text is not there. This is created because the original message is in HTML, and when Mailman adds the footer it's added as a separate ASCII text portion of the message. All of this is explained in FAQ 4.39 at . > Again, sorry if this is repetitive, but I couldn't find any thread or faq > that spoke specifically to these questions...only close to it. If you search for "footer", you'll come up with several hits, and 4.39 should be close to the top of that list. -- Brad Knowles LinkedIn Profile: From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 4 20:40:52 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:40:52 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Footer question... In-Reply-To: <965199.39301.qm@web51603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Greg and Cheryl Sabens wrote: > >Question #1 >So, I'm unclear about something concerning footers (mainly on the Non-digest options). It appears that whenever I create a footer, something (whether it's mailman or Yahoo!) is adding the following line: > >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >Can someone tell me where this is originating from. Sometime is looks like it from Mailman, but I have confirmed that it's not part of the footer that I created. But sometimes it seems to be in Yahoo! because when I receive the same email in Outlook and that text is not there. It occurs because of the answer to Question #2, but it is the specific mail client (Yahoo) that is displaying the footer in this way. >Question #2 >Even beyond that, no matter which mail program/service I use (Yahoo! or Outlook), what footer I do create is attached to the email as an attachment. Again, I don't know what is causing that; 1) is Mailman sending it that way, or 2) are the mail programs/services forcing the footer (which does show up in the email body) to also be attached? Mailman is doing it because the MIME structure of the incoming message does not allow simply adding the footer to the 'body' of the mail. >I'd like to have a footer in the body of the email coming through my maillist, but I'd rally rather not have the "-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" text in the body or the footer included as an attachment to the email. > >Again, sorry if this is repetitive, but I couldn't find any thread or faq that spoke specifically to these questions...only close to it. The FAQ at speaks exactly to this question (Question #2). In order for Mailman to add a footer and add it to the message 'body', the incoming post must be a simple text/plain message, not HTML or multipart/alternative or you must set content filtering to make it so. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 4 20:50:25 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:50:25 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] ImportError: No module named message In-Reply-To: <4937CAD3.4472.5E5F040@rpyne.kinfolk.org> Message-ID: rpyne at kinfolk.org >I am running Mailman 2.1.10. A few days ago I updated my Python to >version 2.6 and everything looked good, list mail was flowing without >problem. > >All of a sudden this afternoon, I started getting errors >"ImportError: No module named message" on everything. This particular >one is frim an attempt to re-install Mailman to make sure everything >was up to date: You probably hadn't restarted Mailman until the errors started occurring. Mailman through 2.1.11 is not compatible with Python 2.6. The problem you are having is the serious one - the others just cause deprecation warnings. You have a few choices. If you still have the older Python, you can reconfigure Mailman using the --with-python option to configure to point to the older Python. You can downgrade Python. You can get the latest Mailman 2.1 branch from (requires a recent bzr on your system to get the branch) and install that. Also, you may be able to work around the problem by just removing the pythonlib/email/ directory from your Mailman installation. This won't stop the deprecation warnings, but it may allow your current Mailman to run. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 4 20:59:05 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:59:05 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] ImportError: No module named message In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark Sapiro wrote: > >Also, you may be able to work around the problem by just removing the >pythonlib/email/ directory from your Mailman installation. This won't >stop the deprecation warnings, but it may allow your current Mailman >to run. Actually, that won't work. removing the pythonlib/email/ directory will eliminate the "ImportError: No module named message", but it will create other errors, namely "AttributeError: Message instance has no attribute 'get_type'" Also, you'll get other errors on the remaining 'string exceptions'. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From adamsca at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 21:19:35 2008 From: adamsca at gmail.com (Christopher Adams) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 12:19:35 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Detailed list of features for version 2.1.11 ? Message-ID: <27572d930812041219v4297906fua4722e3fd2e16948@mail.gmail.com> This link leads to an error. Is there another source for this information? http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/mailman/mailman/NEWS?only_with_tag=Release_2_1-maint -- Christopher Adams adamsca at gmail.com From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 4 23:00:12 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 14:00:12 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Detailed list of features for version 2.1.11 ? In-Reply-To: <27572d930812041219v4297906fua4722e3fd2e16948@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Christopher Adams wrote: >This link leads to an error. Is there another source for this information? > >http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/mailman/mailman/NEWS?only_with_tag=Release_2_1-maint I assume you found that link at or one of the mirrors. Sorry about that. I'll get it fixed. The correct link is . -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From darioghilardi at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 19:36:46 2008 From: darioghilardi at gmail.com (Dario Ghilardi) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:36:46 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Gmail issue... Message-ID: <9f4e18660812041036x1b17ee6ar9cb9f43c04165b3e@mail.gmail.com> Hi all,this is not the common question about gmail feature that doesn't accept message back. I have problems with all gmail accounts (i tried with 2 different but i get the same result). I can subscribe to the list with a gmail account but i can't send emails to that. I can receive others email, but others (and the mailing list too as the archives are empty) can't receive mine. Suggestions? Thanks a lot, Dario From esabens at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 21:51:06 2008 From: esabens at yahoo.com (Greg and Cheryl Sabens) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 12:51:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Footer question... References: Message-ID: <383946.7483.qm@web51606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thank you, Mark S and Brad K. It certainly helps to know the correct terms and words to search. Sorry for repeating a question that probably gets repeated quite a bit. I doubt I would have ever been able to find the answer. I didn't even know what 'munging' was or what it meant so I certainly wouldn't have searched using it. Thanks again! Greg ________________________________ From: Mark Sapiro To: Greg and Cheryl Sabens ; mailman-users at python.org Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 2:40:52 PM Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Footer question... Greg and Cheryl Sabens wrote: > >Question #1 >So, I'm unclear about something concerning footers (mainly on the Non-digest options). It appears that whenever I create a footer, something (whether it's mailman or Yahoo!) is adding the following line: > >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >Can someone tell me where this is originating from. Sometime is looks like it from Mailman, but I have confirmed that it's not part of the footer that I created. But sometimes it seems to be in Yahoo! because when I receive the same email in Outlook and that text is not there. It occurs because of the answer to Question #2, but it is the specific mail client (Yahoo) that is displaying the footer in this way. >Question #2 >Even beyond that, no matter which mail program/service I use (Yahoo! or Outlook), what footer I do create is attached to the email as an attachment. Again, I don't know what is causing that; 1) is Mailman sending it that way, or 2) are the mail programs/services forcing the footer (which does show up in the email body) to also be attached? Mailman is doing it because the MIME structure of the incoming message does not allow simply adding the footer to the 'body' of the mail. >I'd like to have a footer in the body of the email coming through my maillist, but I'd rally rather not have the "-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" text in the body or the footer included as an attachment to the email. > >Again, sorry if this is repetitive, but I couldn't find any thread or faq that spoke specifically to these questions...only close to it. The FAQ at speaks exactly to this question (Question #2). In order for Mailman to add a footer and add it to the message 'body', the incoming post must be a simple text/plain message, not HTML or multipart/alternative or you must set content filtering to make it so. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From jgallagher at opendap.org Fri Dec 5 01:34:59 2008 From: jgallagher at opendap.org (James Gallagher) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 17:34:59 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with moving lists Message-ID: Hi, I moved a set of lists from one host & mailman installation to another host running Mailman 2.1.11rc2. I followed the advice in the FAQ regarding moving lists and it seemed to work OK but I notice two issues. First, messages to the lists are not being archived - I've checked the permissions on the .mbox files, et c., and they are the same as with new lists where archiving does work. One thing that shouldn't matter is that I ran configure before I copied the lists - I forget if that's the order used in the FAQ answer. The second question, and it might provide a clue regarding the first, is that I have the lists in question set to prefix the message subject with the name of the list in brackets. Again, that works with the new lists but not with the moved lists. Thanks, James -- James Gallagher jgallagher at opendap.org 406.723.8663 From brad at shub-internet.org Fri Dec 5 17:45:19 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 10:45:19 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Gmail issue... In-Reply-To: <9f4e18660812041036x1b17ee6ar9cb9f43c04165b3e@mail.gmail.com> References: <9f4e18660812041036x1b17ee6ar9cb9f43c04165b3e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49395A9F.9030409@shub-internet.org> Dario Ghilardi wrote: > Hi all,this is not the common question about gmail feature that doesn't > accept message back. I'm glad to see that you've already gone through the FAQ and identified what your problem is not. Knowing what the problem isn't is at least as important as knowing what it is. > I have problems with all gmail accounts (i tried with 2 different but i get > the same result). > I can subscribe to the list with a gmail account but i can't send emails to > that. I can receive others email, but others (and the mailing list too as > the archives are empty) can't receive mine. Hmm. In questions like this, my first response is to ask what is in the MTA logs on the target side? Is gmail even contacting the machine in question? If it is, are those messages being dropped or quarantined by spam filters? Are they being delivered to Mailman but then held for moderation? Before we can help, we need to know what is in the MTA and Mailman logs that are relevant to these messages that aren't showing up. -- Brad Knowles LinkedIn Profile: From brad at shub-internet.org Fri Dec 5 17:53:01 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 10:53:01 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with moving lists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49395C6D.7020700@shub-internet.org> James Gallagher wrote: > I moved a set of lists from one host & mailman installation to another > host running Mailman 2.1.11rc2. I followed the advice in the FAQ > regarding moving lists and it seemed to work OK but I notice two issues. > First, messages to the lists are not being archived - I've checked the > permissions on the .mbox files, et c., and they are the same as with new > lists where archiving does work. What are your ownership and permissions like? What happens when you run "~Mailman/bin/check_perms"? Not all of the things in FAQ 4.78 (see ) are going to be relevant to your problem here, but there are lots of good general debugging steps that are listed there. > One thing that shouldn't matter is that > I ran configure before I copied the lists - I forget if that's the order > used in the FAQ answer. I'm not convinced that won't create a problem for you, but I'll leave that question for Mark. > The second question, and it might provide a clue regarding the first, is > that I have the lists in question set to prefix the message subject > with the name of the list in brackets. Again, that works with the new > lists but not with the moved lists. That sounds like a configuration file that is not in the right place, and that might potentially be caused by the "configure" not being done in the correct place on the correct system. -- Brad Knowles LinkedIn Profile: From mark at msapiro.net Fri Dec 5 18:01:38 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:01:38 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Footer question... In-Reply-To: <383946.7483.qm@web51606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Greg and Cheryl Sabens wrote: > >It certainly helps to know the correct terms and words to search. Sorry for repeating a question that probably gets repeated quite a bit. I doubt I would have ever been able to find the answer. I didn't even know what 'munging' was or what it meant so I certainly wouldn't have searched using it. But what did you search for? Searching the FAQ for footer gives 20 hits and you might well miss the 4.39 entry, but searching for the two words footer attachment gives 5 hits and the top excerpt shown is: [4.39 Mailman is munging HTML & MIME-formatted messages before they are sent out? (problems with Mailman 2.1.x footers)] 4.39 Mailman is munging HTML & MIME-formatted messages before they are sent out? (problems with Mailman 2.1.x footers) (Documentation) ... Mailman 2.1.x footers) a.k.a., "Why are footers (or message bodies) being shown as attachments to HTMLformatted messages?" For Mailman 2.0.x, see also 4.05 Why don't the footers ... some list messages? (Mailman 2.0.x). The problem is that there is no generalpurpose method of determining where a ... Jul 31, 2008 I ask because we would always like to improve the searchability of the FAQ, and if there's something we can add to this to make it easier for you to find, we'd like to do it. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Fri Dec 5 18:09:26 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:09:26 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Gmail issue... In-Reply-To: <49395A9F.9030409@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: Brad Knowles wrote: >Dario Ghilardi wrote: > >> I have problems with all gmail accounts (i tried with 2 different but i get >> the same result). >> I can subscribe to the list with a gmail account but i can't send emails to >> that. I can receive others email, but others (and the mailing list too as >> the archives are empty) can't receive mine. > >Hmm. In questions like this, my first response is to ask what is in the MTA >logs on the target side? Is gmail even contacting the machine in question? > If it is, are those messages being dropped or quarantined by spam filters? > Are they being delivered to Mailman but then held for moderation? > >Before we can help, we need to know what is in the MTA and Mailman logs that >are relevant to these messages that aren't showing up. Well, clearly you can send to this (mailman-users) list from your gmail account... In addition to what Brad indicates, what else can you tell us. Is this just one specific list with which you have this problem. Is it your list or someone else's? Do you get anything back when you attempt to post? If you are not the list owner, have you contacted the list owner? Perhaps there is some moderation issue or similar. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Fri Dec 5 18:21:27 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:21:27 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with moving lists In-Reply-To: <49395C6D.7020700@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: Brad Knowles wrote: >James Gallagher wrote: Brads advice about check_perms and the FAQ is good. > >> One thing that shouldn't matter is that >> I ran configure before I copied the lists - I forget if that's the order >> used in the FAQ answer. > >I'm not convinced that won't create a problem for you, but I'll leave that >question for Mark. > >> The second question, and it might provide a clue regarding the first, is >> that I have the lists in question set to prefix the message subject >> with the name of the list in brackets. Again, that works with the new >> lists but not with the moved lists. > >That sounds like a configuration file that is not in the right place, and >that might potentially be caused by the "configure" not being done in the >correct place on the correct system. If you go to the web admin interface for the moved lists, what do you see? Do you see a subject_prefix on General Options? Do you see the expected membership list? is Archiving Options -> archive set to Yes? Also, the FAQ mentions several procedures some of which are less that optimum. Can you outline even roughly what you actually did. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From adamsca at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 19:46:10 2008 From: adamsca at gmail.com (Christopher Adams) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:46:10 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Detailed list of features for version 2.1.11 ? In-Reply-To: References: <27572d930812041219v4297906fua4722e3fd2e16948@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <27572d930812051046r2e04d75frf716f057e82134ab@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, Mark. Yes, that was the page I was accessing it from. On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > Christopher Adams wrote: > >>This link leads to an error. Is there another source for this information? >> >>http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/mailman/mailman/NEWS?only_with_tag=Release_2_1-maint > > > I assume you found that link at or > one of the mirrors. Sorry about that. I'll get it fixed. > > The correct link is > . > > -- > Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, > San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan > > -- Christopher Adams adamsca at gmail.com From faisalanif at hotmail.com Sat Dec 6 01:42:41 2008 From: faisalanif at hotmail.com (faisal anif) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 02:42:41 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] add admins and moderators Message-ID: hi, I have about 120 lists on my server for different customers, some are small (50 subscribers max) and some are medium and big (100 - 300 subscribers) I need to add my email address as a server owner to administrate and moderate the lists to make sure no illegal actions are taken.. is there a SSH command line that I can use to add my email as moderator or administrator instead of logging into the web interface of each list and adding it manually? if SSH is applicable I can make a script to do it automatically.. Thanks _________________________________________________________________ News, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Get it now! http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx From brad at shub-internet.org Sat Dec 6 01:52:32 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 18:52:32 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] add admins and moderators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4939CCD0.2090408@shub-internet.org> faisal anif wrote: > I need to add my email address as a server owner to administrate and > moderate the lists to make sure no illegal actions are taken.. is there a > SSH command line that I can use to add my email as moderator or > administrator instead of logging into the web interface of each list and > adding it manually? if SSH is applicable I can make a script to do it > automatically.. If you have the site admin password, you can log in and administer any list you want. You don't have to have the list admin password. Moreover, logging in and controlling things depends only on the admin password, and not whether your e-mail address is listed as one of the official owners. Anyone with the listowner or site admin password can get in, regardless. However, this doesn't do anything for notifications. If you want to be explicitly listed as a listowner for every list, and get all the appropriate listowner notices, then you will actually need to go in and add yourself as a listowner to each and every list. There are command-line tools that you can use to help make this process a lot easier, but I don't think there are any pre-written tools to do exactly what you want. I think you could get there using a "withlist" script, however. FAQ 4.09 at details the various command-line tools that you have available to you as a site administrator. Try looking at those, and searching the archives and the FAQ Wiki to see examples of how to use some of them -- like withlist. -- Brad Knowles LinkedIn Profile: From mark at msapiro.net Sat Dec 6 02:12:33 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:12:33 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] add admins and moderators In-Reply-To: Message-ID: faisal anif wrote: > >I need to add my email address as a server owner to administrate and moderate the lists to make sure no illegal actions are taken.. You don't need to add your address as owner or moderator in order to administer a list. You only need to add your address to 'owner' if you want to receive notices sent by mailman and others to the owner. >is there a SSH command line that I can use to add my email as moderator or administrator instead of logging into the web interface of each list and adding it manually? Presumably you already have set a Mailman site password since how else would you log in to the web interface of each list? So I guess you really do want to add your address as an owner of each list >if SSH is applicable I can make a script to do it automatically.. See for a way to add an owner to a list via the command line. To do it for all lists, you could use a script like #! /bin/sh cd /mailman/installation/directory for list in `bin/list_lists --bare` ; do bin/config_list -i /path/to/file $list done Where /path/to/file is the path to the input prepared according to the above referenced post. As Brad notes, you can also do this with a withlist script and use withlist's --all option to process all lists, but the withlist script you'd need would be a bit more complex than the input file to config_list which could be as simple as the single line mlist.owner.append('faisalanif at hotmail.com') -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From danm at prime.gushi.org Sat Dec 6 04:24:29 2008 From: danm at prime.gushi.org (Dan Mahoney, System Admin) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 22:24:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate detection: a plea Message-ID: We recently moved over to mailman from Ecartis at $dayjob, and one of the largest annoyances is that mailman seems to have no ability to strip duplicate messages that are sent to the lists. We moved over from our main domain name, foo.com, to lists.foo.com, so what happens is this: A user posts to list at foo.com -- the mailer forwards it to list at lists.foo.com. People reply to the list and hit reply-all, which directs replies to the LIST (listname at lists.foo.com) but also to the original recipient (list at foo.com). Bam, duplicates. I don't want to get into an evangelical holy-war about reply-all. We already had it here. I've seen mention of a fix for this via procmail, that basically creates a "lockfile" based on the message-id. Our mail server's not running procmail, and since it's only hosting lists, not and mailboxes, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to use it. All mailman would have to do is touch a per-list lockfile based on message-id (one line of shell), and then at some point in the posting process, if that lockfile exists, drop the message (as it's already come through). Cleanup is one line of shell (find foo -ctime xxx -delete) or can be handled from the qrunner. Heck, if you want to be fancy, give me a list of regexes that match recipients, and more than one must match to make this happen. I also tried sending this to the -developers list. No response. But maybe that's the wrong place since I'm not developing, or submitting a patch. Just saying I need a simple feature and could pay something for it if need be. Not something amazing, but enough for a nice dinner and drinks (or if you're local to silicon valley, I'll buy). Can mailman please have this functionality natively? -Dan -- --------Dan Mahoney-------- Techie, Sysadmin, WebGeek Gushi on efnet/undernet IRC ICQ: 13735144 AIM: LarpGM Site: http://www.gushi.org --------------------------- From danm at prime.gushi.org Sat Dec 6 04:06:40 2008 From: danm at prime.gushi.org (Dan Mahoney, System Admin) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 22:06:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subscribing other lists to a list. Message-ID: I just helped to manage a migration from Ecartis to Mailman for my day job. We have a periodic -announce list that we send out on to release new software versions. What I'm finding is we cannot duplicate the same behavior we have under Ecartis. Ecartis had a simple "import" option, where list B could be a subset of list A, but list A could also contain normal users. I've found this post http://www.saas.nsw.edu.au/solutions/umbrella.html and it explains things pretty well, but neither option would really work well for us. Umbrella lists don't work because they say "this was sent to the umbrella list" in the footers (which are suppressable) but also in the TO: header (or the cc header). We could send to: a fake address, with a cc: to a fake address, but this would set off spam filters, and we're staunchly anti-spam. On the other hand, Parent lists don't work, for the same reason -- there are people who sign up for -announce and -discuss and want to filter them separately, or who don't want the noise of -discuss and want to get it as a digest. Right now, the easiest (and dumbest) answer is "just make announcements to all three lists". Ecartis stripped duplicates there -- if you were on list a, I don't believe list b was imported. What I'd like to know if is possible within mailman is the following: a) A per-user flag that makes a user admin-control ONLY. No auto-bounce handling, no unsubscribe options, no password reminders...nothing. Essentially, this would move the "umbrella" setting from a global to a single address. This would solve about half the problem (the headers would still need to be fixed, mainly the to: header). But it's more than I have right now. -Dan Mahoney -- --------Dan Mahoney-------- Techie, Sysadmin, WebGeek Gushi on efnet/undernet IRC ICQ: 13735144 AIM: LarpGM Site: http://www.gushi.org --------------------------- From hammond at txcorp.com Fri Dec 5 20:22:21 2008 From: hammond at txcorp.com (hammond at txcorp.com) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:22:21 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Tend to pending moderator requests - Nothing happens Message-ID: When I select Accept (or any action)/ Submit All Data in the list of pending posts, nothing happens. The page is sent, because I see the URL at the top being refreshed, but the pending message is not deleted or accepted. /var/lib/mailman is nfs-mounted, and exported rw,no_root_squash to the apache server. I've been searching for a list of permissions/ownership for the directories. It must be a permissions issue?? Currently: drwxrwsr-x 6 root mailman 4096 Dec 5 12:10 . drwxr-xr-x 34 root root 4096 Aug 25 2007 .. drwxrwsr-x 4 apache mailman 4096 Jul 17 2007 archives drwxrwsr-x 2 apache mailman 12288 Dec 4 16:37 data drwxrwsr-x 64 apache mailman 4096 Dec 4 16:26 lists drwxrwsr-x 2 root mailman 4096 Oct 1 2006 spam mailman 2.1.9 Thanks in advance < Anne Anne M. Hammond - Systems / Network Administration From jgallagher at opendap.org Fri Dec 5 21:52:13 2008 From: jgallagher at opendap.org (James Gallagher) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:52:13 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with moving lists In-Reply-To: <49395C6D.7020700@shub-internet.org> References: <49395C6D.7020700@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <968536BA-5D49-4CCB-B107-E46262EC7164@opendap.org> On Dec 5, 2008, at 9:53 AM, Brad Knowles wrote: > James Gallagher wrote: > >> I moved a set of lists from one host & mailman installation to >> another host running Mailman 2.1.11rc2. I followed the advice in >> the FAQ regarding moving lists and it seemed to work OK but I >> notice two issues. First, messages to the lists are not being >> archived - I've checked the permissions on the .mbox files, et c., >> and they are the same as with new lists where archiving does work. > > What are your ownership and permissions like? What happens when you > run "~Mailman/bin/check_perms"? Not all of the things in FAQ 4.78 > (see ) are going to be relevant to your > problem here, but there are lots of good general debugging steps > that are listed there. > >> One thing that shouldn't matter is >> that I ran configure before I copied the lists - I forget if that's >> the order used in the FAQ answer. > > I'm not convinced that won't create a problem for you, but I'll > leave that question for Mark. > >> The second question, and it might provide a clue regarding the >> first, is that I have the lists in question set to prefix the >> message subject with the name of the list in brackets. Again, that >> works with the new lists but not with the moved lists. > > That sounds like a configuration file that is not in the right > place, and that might potentially be caused by the "configure" not > being done in the correct place on the correct system. There were two problems: One I needed to re-run configure and use -- with-username and two, I failed to configure some host-specific settings so mailman was never actually getting my test messages. Thanks for the help with the basic configuration stuff. James > > > -- > Brad Knowles > LinkedIn Profile: -- James Gallagher jgallagher at opendap.org 406.723.8663 From mark at msapiro.net Sat Dec 6 16:36:43 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 07:36:43 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Tend to pending moderator requests - Nothing happens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: hammond at txcorp.com wrote: >When I select > Accept (or any action)/ Submit All Data >in the list of pending posts, nothing happens. > >The page is sent, because I see the URL at the top being refreshed, >but the pending message is not deleted or accepted. Does your web server redirect the URL? See the FAQ at . -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Sat Dec 6 18:54:58 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 09:54:58 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subscribing other lists to a list. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dan Mahoney, System Admin wrote: > >What I'd like to know if is possible within mailman is the following: > >a) A per-user flag that makes a user admin-control ONLY. No auto-bounce >handling, no unsubscribe options, no password reminders...nothing. >Essentially, this would move the "umbrella" setting from a global to a >single address. This would solve about half the problem (the headers >would still need to be fixed, mainly the to: header). No. This is not possible in current Mailman. You might want to look at the "sibling lists" feature in Mailman 2.1.10 and up. You could add the -discuss list to the regular_include_lists attribute of the -announce list. This would send a copy of any -announce post to all the -announce members with delivery enabled plus any delivery enabled regular members of the -discuss list who were not regular members of the -announce list. The potential issues that I see are: A regular member of the -discuss list who is a digest member of the -announce list will receive the individual message and also receive it in the digest. Digest members of the -discuss list will not receive the message unless they are also members of the -announce list. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Sat Dec 6 21:26:06 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 12:26:06 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate detection: a plea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dan Mahoney, System Admin wrote: > >We moved over from our main domain name, foo.com, to lists.foo.com, so >what happens is this: > >A user posts to list at foo.com -- the mailer forwards it to >list at lists.foo.com. People reply to the list and hit reply-all, which >directs replies to the LIST (listname at lists.foo.com) but also to the >original recipient (list at foo.com). Bam, duplicates. How about just rewriting the list at foo.com address in the To:/Cc: header to the new address when you forward the mail. >I also tried sending this to the -developers list. No response. But >maybe that's the wrong place since I'm not developing, or submitting a >patch. Just saying I need a simple feature and could pay something for it >if need be. Not something amazing, but enough for a nice dinner and >drinks (or if you're local to silicon valley, I'll buy). I saw your post on mailman-developers. It's still in my inbox. I think that's probably the more appropriate list, but clearly it didn't generate any interest. >Can mailman please have this functionality natively? What you're asking is that Mailman be modified to solve a problem which at its core is a problem that you created outside of Mailman. It is not clear to me that there are many or even any Mailman installations other than yours that would benefit from this solution. However, since it's a slow Saturday, see the attached DuplicatePost.py handler. This is a custom handler which can be installed following the instructions in the FAQ at . You will also need to add two settings to mm_cfg.py I suggest MESSAGE_ID_EXPIRES_AFTER = minutes(30) HOLD_DUPLICATE_MESSAGES = No but you can set them anyway you want. If HOLD_DUPLICATE_MESSAGES is Yes, the duplicate will be held for moderator approval, if No, it will be discarded. MESSAGE_ID_EXPIRES_AFTER is the length of time to remember seen Message-IDs. You must set both of these in mm_cfg.py before enabling the DuplicatePost handler. The handler should come early in the pipeline. It should be before Replybot and can even be first. You can enable it as first in the pipeline by putting GLOBAL_PIPELINE.insert(0, 'DuplicatePost') in mm_cfg.py, but I strongly suggest you use the config_list method to set it for one test list and test it before enabling it for all lists. The order in which to do things is 1) update mm_cfg.py with the two required settings 2) copy DuplicatePost.py to Mailman/Handlers 3) restart Mailman 4) run bin/config_list to add the updated pipeline to the test list 5) test 6) if satisfied 7) put above GLOBAL_PIPELINE insertion in mm_cfg.py 8) restart mailman 9) buy me dinner :) -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Sat Dec 6 21:33:19 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 12:33:19 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate detection: a plea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark Sapiro wrote: > >However, since it's a slow Saturday, see the attached DuplicatePost.py >handler. I should know better. The attachment was stripped from the list by content filtering. Ti is attached again as DuplicatePost.py.txt, but of course needs to be renamed for use. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: DuplicatePost.py.txt URL: From charlie at begeistert.org Sun Dec 7 17:57:26 2008 From: charlie at begeistert.org (Charlie Clark) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 17:57:26 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with a single list Message-ID: Hi, we have a problem with just one of our mailing lists. Unfortunately I do not have direct access to the Mailman install. There are lots of errors of the form: Oct 16 21:45:01 2008 (2881) SHUNTING: 1224186301.857964+44d57ae24346f2e593571310b2fb5a9262fdf059 Oct 16 21:50:03 2008 (2881) Uncaught runner exception: bad marshal data Oct 16 21:50:03 2008 (2881) Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 105, in _oneloop self._onefile(msg, msgdata) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 155, in _onefile keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130, in _dispose more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153, in _dopipeline sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Moderate.py", line 109, in process Hold.hold_for_approval(mlist, msg, msgdata, Hold.NonMemberPost) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py", line 207, in hold_for_approval id = mlist.HoldMessage(msg, reason, msgdata) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 205, in HoldMessage self.__opendb() File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 82, in __opendb self.__db = marshal.load(fp) ValueError: bad marshal data I have access to a copy of the Mailman install but I've not been able to work out how to check which file is defect. I can see that e-mails are still arriving and being processed and added to the archive but nothing is actually sent to the list. Other lists are fine. Any tips? Charlie Clark -- Charlie Clark Helmholtzstr. 20 D?sseldorf D- 40215 Tel: +49-211-938-5360 GSM: +49-178-782-6226 From djhumbucker at tirwhan.org Sat Dec 6 15:03:15 2008 From: djhumbucker at tirwhan.org (Marc Beyer) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 15:03:15 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving server and location Message-ID: <493A8623.2020600@tirwhan.org> Hi, I'm trying to move the lists and archives of an existing Mailman 2.1.8 installation to a new server with a newly installed 2.1.11 version. On the old server, everything was kept under /opt/mailman-2.1.8, whereas on the new one (due to disk space issues) the archives and lists should be kept separately under /var/adm. Both of this is on HP-UX btw. This is my configure-line for the new install: /configure --prefix=/opt/mailman-2.1.11/ --with-mail-gid=mailman --with-var-prefix=/var/adm/mailman The install worked fine as far as I can see. I then moved over the directories "archives", "lists" and "data" from the old server to the new one and fixed the symbolic links within archives to point at the new path. If I now run /opt/mailman-2.1.11/bin/list_lists it finds all the previously existing lists. check_perms also runs fine. Problem: both http://newserver.url/mailman/listinfo and http://newserver.url/mailman/admin say that there are no lists installed. What can I do to see these lists in the web interface? Also, shouldn't I be prompted for the old admin password at some point(where is that kept)? If there's any FAQ I've missed please be so kind as to point me to it, I've spent several hours scouring the online docs as well as the list archives but am still missing a solution. Cheers, Marc From webmaster at stjohns.org.au Sun Dec 7 00:29:55 2008 From: webmaster at stjohns.org.au (St John's Webmaster) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 10:29:55 +1100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] deleted admins and attachments wouldn't work. Message-ID: Hi, One day last week, mailman reset the overarching admin password, removed certain people from lists as admins, and suddenly sent out password reminders. And, it wouldn't send out lists attachments. The attachments exits when the moderator sees the message, but are scrubbed after that. No content filtering is active. Please help. 2.1.11cp2 Kind Regards, Patrick Helm From will at tekimaki.com Sun Dec 7 16:20:07 2008 From: will at tekimaki.com (Will) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 10:20:07 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] listhost vs hostname vs host_name Message-ID: <493BE9A7.9080609@tekimaki.com> Hi - so we have an automated setup between a CMS forum and mailman to create lists, having a little confusion about what values to pass config_list trying to understand what these three values govern: listhost vs hostname vs host_name right now we set -e emailhost via newlist, this has resulted in some incorrect data displaying in emails. this seems to set the listhost value but not host_name or hostname. we are attaching all lists to a subdomain. so like somelist at sub.domain.com emails from the lists setup however are coming from somelist-bounces at domain.com and in the emails the post to email address is give as somelist at domain.com. postfix and mailman however are working find at accepting emails to somelist at sub.domain.com and processing them through the lists. so I thought, hmm... maybe we need to set hostname to 'sub.domain.com'. but I also see that the templates for emails have 2 different hostname params: hostname and host_name. can someone explain the differences between all there and how to get our list configurations right using the commandline commands for our subdomained lists? Thanks! oh PS - is there a command also to patch our existing lists to set the host name values correctly. thanks From brad at shub-internet.org Mon Dec 8 03:08:26 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 20:08:26 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] deleted admins and attachments wouldn't work. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <493C819A.1050409@shub-internet.org> on 12/6/08 5:29 PM, St John's Webmaster said: > One day last week, mailman reset the overarching admin password, removed > certain people from lists as admins, and suddenly sent out password > reminders. And, it wouldn't send out lists attachments. The attachments > exits when the moderator sees the message, but are scrubbed after that. > No content filtering is active. Mailman would not just do this on it's own. Something else had to happen, and I'm guessing it was probably someone restoring data from a backup that wiped out your current production environment. Nothing that you're talking about could possibly happen with the standard version of Mailman with the standard cron jobs. > 2.1.11cp2 If you're running cPanel, please take a look at FAQ 6.11 at . You need to talk to your provider or cPanel, to see what they must have done to you. -- Brad Knowles LinkedIn Profile: From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 8 04:40:43 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 19:40:43 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with a single list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Charlie Clark wrote: > >we have a problem with just one of our mailing lists. Unfortunately I >do not have direct access to the Mailman install. Then you won't be able to fix this. You'll need to get whoever does have access to do it. >There are lots of errors of the form: > >Oct 16 21:45:01 2008 (2881) SHUNTING: >1224186301.857964+44d57ae24346f2e593571310b2fb5a9262fdf059 >Oct 16 21:50:03 2008 (2881) Uncaught runner exception: bad marshal data >Oct 16 21:50:03 2008 (2881) Traceback (most recent call last): >File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 105, in _oneloop > self._onefile(msg, msgdata) >File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 155, in _onefile > keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata) >File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130, >in _dispose > more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline) >File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153, >in _dopipeline > sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata) >File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Moderate.py", line 109, in >process > Hold.hold_for_approval(mlist, msg, msgdata, Hold.NonMemberPost) >File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py", line 207, in >hold_for_approval > id = mlist.HoldMessage(msg, reason, msgdata) >File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 205, in HoldMessage > self.__opendb() >File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 82, in __opendb > self.__db = marshal.load(fp) >ValueError: bad marshal data The above error says: This is Mailman 2.1.4 or older and the file lists/LISTNAME/request.db is corrupt. Simply removing the file should allow the list to resume processing, although there may be some messages that were held before the corruption occurred that won't be in the admindb interface for the list. The shunted messages can be reprocessed by running bin/unshunt, but before doing so it is always a good idea to examine the files in qfiles/shunt with bin/dumpdb or bin/show_qfiles and cull out any old ow unwanted ones. >I have access to a copy of the Mailman install but I've not been able >to work out how to check which file is defect. I can see that e-mails >are still arriving and being processed and added to the archive but >nothing is actually sent to the list. Other lists are fine. The message that produced the above traceback shouldn't be in the archive. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 8 05:07:33 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 20:07:33 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] listhost vs hostname vs host_name In-Reply-To: <493BE9A7.9080609@tekimaki.com> Message-ID: Will wrote: > >so we have an automated setup between a CMS forum and mailman to create >lists, having a little confusion about what values to pass config_list > >trying to understand what these three values govern: listhost vs >hostname vs host_name See the FAQ at . I don't know what 'listhost' or 'hostname' are. They are not list attributes. If you are referring to something specific in the documentation, you'll have to tell me what, and I can then translate it for you. host_name is a list attribute that is described if the above referenced FAQ and which is set directly from the -e option to bin/newlist. >right now we set -e emailhost via newlist, this has resulted in some >incorrect data displaying in emails. this seems to set the listhost >value but not host_name or hostname. Actually, it sets host_name, and as I said, I don't know what 'listhost' and 'hostname' are. >we are attaching all lists to a subdomain. so like somelist at sub.domain.com > >emails from the lists setup however are coming from >somelist-bounces at domain.com and in the emails the post to email address >is give as somelist at domain.com. Both those domains come directly from the host_name attribute. >postfix and mailman however are working find at accepting emails to >somelist at sub.domain.com and processing them through the lists. > >so I thought, hmm... maybe we need to set hostname to 'sub.domain.com'. >but I also see that the templates for emails have 2 different hostname >params: hostname and host_name. What a template refers to as 'hostname' can be anything. For example, the 'hostname' substitution in cronpass.txt (the monthly password reminder) is either the list's host_name or it is DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST depending on the setting of VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW. In most other cases, it is the list's host_name. >can someone explain the differences between all there and how to get our >list configurations right using the commandline commands for our >subdomained lists? First you have to get mm_cfg.py correct. See the initial part of the FAQ at . Then you should be able to create new lists with bin/newlist without specifying -u or -e, and the defaults should be good. >oh PS - is there a command also to patch our existing lists to set the >host name values correctly. thanks bin/withlist -l -a -r fix_url run bin/fix_url.py and/or search the FAQ for fix_url for more information. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 8 05:19:26 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 20:19:26 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving server and location In-Reply-To: <493A8623.2020600@tirwhan.org> Message-ID: Marc Beyer wrote: > >Problem: both http://newserver.url/mailman/listinfo and >http://newserver.url/mailman/admin say that there are no lists >installed. What can I do to see these lists in the web interface? Also, >shouldn't I be prompted for the old admin password at some point(where >is that kept)? > >If there's any FAQ I've missed please be so kind as to point me to it, >I've spent several hours scouring the online docs as well as the list >archives but am still missing a solution. See the FAQ at for why the lists don't appear on the overview pages. (You should be able to get to the list at, e.g., http://newserver.url/mailman/listinfo/LISTNAME even though it doesn't appear.) What old admin password? The site password and list creator password are set in the new installation via bin/mmsitepass or you can port the old ones by moving data/adm.pw and/or data/creator.pw. Individual list admin and moderator passwords are in the respective lists/LISTNAME/config.pck files and moved with the lists. Note that since it appears the web host has changed, you will have many 'more information about this list' URLs in the archives that point to the old host. The easy way to fix that, assuming all the archives/private/LISTNAME.mbox/LISTNAME.mbox files are good, is to just run bin/arch --wipe on all the lists. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From campbell at cnpapers.com Mon Dec 8 14:50:48 2008 From: campbell at cnpapers.com (Steve Campbell) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 08:50:48 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Shunting problem and suggestions Message-ID: <493D2638.6070407@cnpapers.com> I've got a single user out of approximately 250 that seems to always get shunted. It's a problem with extended character set characters being sent. She uses Outlook for an MUA. Can a user be whitelisted in any way to prevent the shunt tests from being done? Where might I look on her machine to discover what might be causing her Outlook to send these characters? We have many Outlook users, and she seems to be the only one with this problem? I'm guessing it's characters like the single and doulble quotation marks, as best as I can tell. I'm using mailman 2.1.5-1.25 RH rpm. Thanks Steve Campbell From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 8 17:51:39 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 08:51:39 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Shunting problem and suggestions In-Reply-To: <493D2638.6070407@cnpapers.com> Message-ID: Steve Campbell wrote: >I've got a single user out of approximately 250 that seems to always get >shunted. It's a problem with extended character set characters being >sent. She uses Outlook for an MUA. > >Can a user be whitelisted in any way to prevent the shunt tests from >being done? Where might I look on her machine to discover what might be >causing her Outlook to send these characters? We have many Outlook >users, and she seems to be the only one with this problem? I'm guessing >it's characters like the single and doulble quotation marks, as best as >I can tell. The exceptions caused by such things should not cause the message to be shunted. They should be caught within the handler and dealt with. The fact that they aren't is a bug. >I'm using mailman 2.1.5-1.25 RH rpm. And it has probably been fixed in more recent versions. If you post the traceback from the error log for one of these, I can suggest a patch to fix it, but the real fix is probably to upgrade Mailman. And, to answer your original question, a user cannot be whitelisted from having their messages shunted. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 8 18:19:11 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 09:19:11 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] listhost vs hostname vs host_name In-Reply-To: <493D364E.5030503@tekimaki.com> Message-ID: Will wrote: >Mark Sapiro wrote: >> host_name is a list attribute that is described if the above referenced >> FAQ and which is set directly from the -e option to bin/newlist. >> >> > >really? that doesn't seem to be the case. I'm creating a list with >newlist and passing the subdomain value with -e and it only seems to set >the emailhost value. which works for setting the domain name properly on >some portions of the email like to address, but list-bounces@ and tpls >have the host_name wrong. its not until I set the host_name with >config_list that the subdomain is properly set everywhere. > >I do have things working now. but I got it working by setting both -e >and host_name in a config file passed to config_list. What Mailman version is this? In any version I know about, if you specify a domain to newlist with the -e option, it set's the list's host_name attribute. This is the same host_name that you can set with config_list and which appears and can be set on the web admin General Options page near the bottom. I don't know what the 'emailhost' value is that you say it sets if it isn't host_name. There is no 'emailhost' list attribute. In any case, if Mailman has been configured with the correct values for web and email hosts so that DEFAULT_URL_HOST and DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST are correct in Defaults.py, or if not, if they have been corrected in mm_cfg.py with the following: DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'www.example.com' DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mail.example.com' VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear() add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST) (with your own actual domains), you should be able to create lists with bin/newlist with no -u or -e option and get what you want. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From phanh at canby.k12.or.us Mon Dec 8 20:54:23 2008 From: phanh at canby.k12.or.us (Hung Phan) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:54:23 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] confirm email never send out Message-ID: <8DC6304D-E9DE-4BD2-AACB-83BF87D2A4E3@canby.k12.or.us> Hello, folks Just discover this issue with our mailing list. Our lists are set with user confirm but when the user signup, the email never send out. The send log file doesn't list anything. Have anyone run across this issue? Thanks, From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 8 21:04:39 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:04:39 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] confirm email never send out In-Reply-To: <8DC6304D-E9DE-4BD2-AACB-83BF87D2A4E3@canby.k12.or.us> Message-ID: Hung Phan wrote: > >Just discover this issue with our mailing list. Our lists are set with >user confirm but when the user signup, the email never send out. The >send log file doesn't list anything. Have anyone run across this issue? Do other Mailman generated notices get sent? Is VirginRunner running? Is the virgin/ queue full of messages? Is there anything in Mailman's error log? See the FAQ at . -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk Mon Dec 8 03:28:28 2008 From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 02:28:28 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving server and location In-Reply-To: <493A8623.2020600@tirwhan.org> References: <493A8623.2020600@tirwhan.org> Message-ID: <20081208022826.GZ1778@amyl.org.uk> On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 03:03:15PM +0100, Marc Beyer wrote: > Hi, > > I'm trying to move the lists and archives of an existing Mailman 2.1.8 > installation to a new server with a newly installed 2.1.11 version. On [...] > If I now run /opt/mailman-2.1.11/bin/list_lists it finds all the > previously existing lists. check_perms also runs fine. > > Problem: both http://newserver.url/mailman/listinfo and > http://newserver.url/mailman/admin say that there are no lists > installed. What can I do to see these lists in the web interface? Also, Have you (a) created the site-list on $NEW_INSTALL? (b) fixed-up the new hostname for the lists? (c) fixed-up the new URIs for the lists? -- those are the things I'd look at first. for (b), you might find bin/config_list setting host_name useful; for (c) you may find bin/withlist and fix_url useful. > shouldn't I be prompted for the old admin password at some point(where > is that kept)? When you visit a list's admin pages, yes. As for the admin password, data/adm.pw -- re-settable via bin/mmsitepass -- ``The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.'' (George Bernard Shaw) From fulviocasali at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 03:30:50 2008 From: fulviocasali at gmail.com (Fulvio Casali) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 18:30:50 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] multi-list admin report Message-ID: I manage a few dozen lists on one domain, and I would like to get a view of all my lists at a glance, with info for each list: - #of subscribers, - names of moderators, - date of most recent post, - total# of posts, - etc. Is there such a control panel / admin report? I have version 2.1.11. Thanks! fulvio From hammond at txcorp.com Mon Dec 8 23:34:57 2008 From: hammond at txcorp.com (hammond at txcorp.com) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:34:57 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Tend to pending moderator requests - Nothing happens In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you very much. This was solved by instructions in: http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/4.27+Securing+Mailman%27s+web+GUI+by+using+Secure+HTTP-SSL mailman-2.1.9-2 vi /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py DEFAULT_URL = "https://server.corp.com" /usr/lib/mailman/bin/withlist -l -r fix_url tendingtest /etc/init.d/mailman restart On Sat, 6 Dec 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote: > hammond at txcorp.com wrote: > >> When I select >> Accept (or any action)/ Submit All Data >> in the list of pending posts, nothing happens. >> >> The page is sent, because I see the URL at the top being refreshed, >> but the pending message is not deleted or accepted. > > > Does your web server redirect the URL? > > See the FAQ at . > > -- > Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, > San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan > > From mitra_swapan at hotmail.com Mon Dec 8 06:53:52 2008 From: mitra_swapan at hotmail.com (swapan mitra) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 05:53:52 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How can I know whther the mailer is distributing or not In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I have posted a mailer on 05/12/2008 around 4PM IST in one of my mailing list. In the list I have around 25000 subscriber. I have subscribed to same list with email id start with b, z etc to check the posting. I have not yet recieved any mail to those ids. I am list administrator and do not have shell access I have only access through Control Panel. How can I know whther the mailer is distributing or not. Regards SwapanMr. Swapan Kumar Mitra Kolkata, WB, India. Mob:+91 0 98303 34580 E-mail Disclaimer This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation. > Date:Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:41:04 -0800> From: mark at msapiro.net> To: mitra_swapan at hotmail.com; mailman-users at python.org> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Multiple subscribers set in mailman> > swapan mitra wrote:> > > >I am new to mailman and I have List Administrator access only to the mailing list.> >Can I do the following and if yes how can I do that:> >We have series of messages (all messages are interlinked by topic) which we want to share with our mailing list subscribers. Now this is fine with already subscribed mailing list members. But who joins new into the same Mailing list we want to send them, messages from the first one and onwards how can we do that? As the new subscribers are only receives the current messages they will find meaning less content. I hope I can get some solutions for this.> > > > Mailman can't mail the old messages to new subscribers. The new> subscribers have to read the old messages in the list's archive.> > -- > Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,> San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan> _________________________________________________________________ Wish to Marry Now? Join MSN Matrimony FREE! http://in.msn.com/matrimony From will at tekimaki.com Mon Dec 8 15:59:26 2008 From: will at tekimaki.com (Will) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 09:59:26 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] listhost vs hostname vs host_name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <493D364E.5030503@tekimaki.com> Mark Sapiro wrote: > Will wrote: > >> so we have an automated setup between a CMS forum and mailman to create >> lists, having a little confusion about what values to pass config_list >> >> trying to understand what these three values govern: listhost vs >> hostname vs host_name >> > > > See the FAQ at . > > I don't know what 'listhost' or 'hostname' are. They are not list > attributes. If you are referring to something specific in the > documentation, you'll have to tell me what, and I can then translate > it for you. > > sorry I think i mixed myself up and confused listhost for emailhost > host_name is a list attribute that is described if the above referenced > FAQ and which is set directly from the -e option to bin/newlist. > > really? that doesn't seem to be the case. I'm creating a list with newlist and passing the subdomain value with -e and it only seems to set the emailhost value. which works for setting the domain name properly on some portions of the email like to address, but list-bounces@ and tpls have the host_name wrong. its not until I set the host_name with config_list that the subdomain is properly set everywhere. I do have things working now. but I got it working by setting both -e and host_name in a config file passed to config_list. thanks for your help! >> right now we set -e emailhost via newlist, this has resulted in some >> incorrect data displaying in emails. this seems to set the listhost >> value but not host_name or hostname. >> > > > Actually, it sets host_name, and as I said, I don't know what > 'listhost' and 'hostname' are. > > > >> we are attaching all lists to a subdomain. so like somelist at sub.domain.com >> >> emails from the lists setup however are coming from >> somelist-bounces at domain.com and in the emails the post to email address >> is give as somelist at domain.com. >> > > > Both those domains come directly from the host_name attribute. > > > >> postfix and mailman however are working find at accepting emails to >> somelist at sub.domain.com and processing them through the lists. >> >> so I thought, hmm... maybe we need to set hostname to 'sub.domain.com'. >> but I also see that the templates for emails have 2 different hostname >> params: hostname and host_name. >> > > > What a template refers to as 'hostname' can be anything. For example, > the 'hostname' substitution in cronpass.txt (the monthly password > reminder) is either the list's host_name or it is DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST > depending on the setting of VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW. In most other > cases, it is the list's host_name. > > > >> can someone explain the differences between all there and how to get our >> list configurations right using the commandline commands for our >> subdomained lists? >> > > > First you have to get mm_cfg.py correct. See the initial part of the > FAQ at . Then you should be able to > create new lists with bin/newlist without specifying -u or -e, and the > defaults should be good. > > > >> oh PS - is there a command also to patch our existing lists to set the >> host name values correctly. thanks >> > > > bin/withlist -l -a -r fix_url > > run > > bin/fix_url.py > > and/or search the FAQ for fix_url for more information. > > From mark at msapiro.net Tue Dec 9 01:36:46 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 16:36:46 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How can I know whther the mailer is distributing ornot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: swapan mitra wrote: > >I have posted a mailer on 05/12/2008 around 4PM IST in one of my mailing list. In the list I have around 25000 subscriber. I have subscribed to same list with email id start with b, z etc to check the posting. Mailman doesn't send in email address order. It is unlikely, but possible that all the addresses you subscribed will be sent towards the end of the list. However, you sent this on Mon, 8 Dec 2008 05:53:52 +0000 which if I am correct is 11:23 AM IST or almost 3 days later. If all the list members haven't been delivered by now, something is very wrong. >I have not yet recieved any mail to those ids. I am list administrator and do not have shell access I have only access through Control Panel. How can I know whther the mailer is distributing or not. Determining whether mail has been sent and debugging such problems requires access to Mailman and MTA logs on the server. You will have to enlist the aid of someone who has that access. See the FAQ at for basic troubleshooting information. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Tue Dec 9 02:43:23 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:43:23 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] multi-list admin report In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fulvio Casali wrote: >I manage a few dozen lists on one domain, and I would like to get a view of >all my lists at a glance, with info for each list: > > - #of subscribers, > - names of moderators, > - date of most recent post, > - total# of posts, > - etc. > >Is there such a control panel / admin report? Brad's Mailman Daily Status Report script (mmdsr) is an excelent tool which generates a daily report including summaries of number of posts by list and by sender and number of messages sent by time of day as well as much other useful info from Mailman's logs, but it is a daily report and doesn't report over longer periods. If you know Python, it would be fairly easy to generate the - #of subscribers, - names of moderators, - date of most recent post, type of information from the list's config.pck file, but total number of posts would have to come from logs. There are also command line tools such as bin/list_members and bin/list_owners, and there are some withlist scripts such as . These could be put together with things like grep, awk, sed and wc in shell scripts to produce a lot of what you want. However, other than Brad's mmdsr, I'm not aware of any packaged reports. You can find mmdsr at or in the contrib/ directory of Mailman's source distribution. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From danm at prime.gushi.org Mon Dec 8 22:18:45 2008 From: danm at prime.gushi.org (Dan Mahoney, System Admin) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 16:18:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subscribing other lists to a list. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Dec 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote: > Dan Mahoney, System Admin wrote: >> >> What I'd like to know if is possible within mailman is the following: >> >> a) A per-user flag that makes a user admin-control ONLY. No auto-bounce >> handling, no unsubscribe options, no password reminders...nothing. >> Essentially, this would move the "umbrella" setting from a global to a >> single address. This would solve about half the problem (the headers >> would still need to be fixed, mainly the to: header). > > > No. This is not possible in current Mailman. > > You might want to look at the "sibling lists" feature in Mailman 2.1.10 > and up. You could add the -discuss list to the regular_include_lists > attribute of the -announce list. This would send a copy of any > -announce post to all the -announce members with delivery enabled plus > any delivery enabled regular members of the -discuss list who were not > regular members of the -announce list. > > The potential issues that I see are: > > A regular member of the -discuss list who is a digest member of the > -announce list will receive the individual message and also receive it > in the digest. Typically, an announce-list is not digestable so this is not a worry. > Digest members of the -discuss list will not receive the message unless > they are also members of the -announce list. I'd have to assume there's something internal that makes this necessary -- I'm curious as to how much tweaking it would take to fix (i.e. make it so digest members receive the announcement, either in their digest or separately). -Dan -- --------Dan Mahoney-------- Techie, Sysadmin, WebGeek Gushi on efnet/undernet IRC ICQ: 13735144 AIM: LarpGM Site: http://www.gushi.org --------------------------- From jjohnson at umn.edu Tue Dec 9 16:57:02 2008 From: jjohnson at umn.edu (Jeffrey M. Johnson) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:57:02 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Blocking Mail from self... Message-ID: <005301c95a16$c7084c80$5518e580$@edu> I have a list that has become a target for spam messages. The problem is I can't seem to figure out how to block the incoming spam. If the list name is mylist at mylistserver.com how do I block spam messages that are "sent" from a spoofed address of mylist at mylistserver.com? I have tried to block and list as always requiring approval but it doesn't seem to take. Jeffrey M. Johnson Sr. Info Tech Professional Central Operations From mark at msapiro.net Tue Dec 9 17:36:27 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 08:36:27 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Blocking Mail from self... In-Reply-To: <005301c95a16$c7084c80$5518e580$@edu> Message-ID: Jeffrey M. Johnson wrote: > >If the list name is mylist at mylistserver.com how do I block spam messages >that are "sent" from a spoofed address of mylist at mylistserver.com? > > > >I have tried to block and list as always requiring approval but it doesn't >seem to take. What have you done? If you go to the admin Privacy options... -> Spam filters page and set a header filter rule with regexp ^from:.*mylist at myserver\.com and action of Hold, it should do what you seem to want. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Tue Dec 9 17:54:41 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 08:54:41 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Blocking Mail from self... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark Sapiro wrote: >Jeffrey M. Johnson wrote: >> >>If the list name is mylist at mylistserver.com how do I block spam messages >>that are "sent" from a spoofed address of mylist at mylistserver.com? >> >> >> >>I have tried to block and list as always requiring approval but it doesn't >>seem to take. > > >What have you done? > >If you go to the admin Privacy options... -> Spam filters page and set >a header filter rule with regexp > >^from:.*mylist at myserver\.com > >and action of Hold, it should do what you seem to want. Also, since the list can't be a member of itself, it should suffice to set Privacy options... -> Sender filters -> generic_nonmember_action to something other than Accept, or if this isn't viable, add the list address to hold_these_nonmembers. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Tue Dec 9 19:55:51 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:55:51 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subscribing other lists to a list. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dan Mahoney, System Admin wrote: >On Sat, 6 Dec 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote: > >> Digest members of the -discuss list will not receive the message unless >> they are also members of the -announce list. > >I'd have to assume there's something internal that makes this necessary -- >I'm curious as to how much tweaking it would take to fix (i.e. make it so >digest members receive the announcement, either in their digest or >separately). It is not any kind of internal requirement or convenience. It is a design of the feature. The feature is intended to be used for parallel discussion lists and it wouldn't be appropriate for digest members to receive individual messages from a sibling discussion list. To include digest members so they receive the announcement (separately; not in the digest), you could locate the following lines at the end of the definition of do_include at the very end of Mailman/Handlers/CalcRecips.py srecips = set([slist.getMemberCPAddress(m) for m in slist.getRegularMemberKeys() if slist.getDeliveryStatus(m) == ENABLED]) recips |= srecips return list(recips) and change getRegularMemberKeys() to getMembers() so the lines become srecips = set([slist.getMemberCPAddress(m) for m in slist.getMembers() if slist.getDeliveryStatus(m) == ENABLED]) recips |= srecips return list(recips) Of course, this change would affect all lists with regular_include_lists and might not be appropriate for other than the -announce/-discuss scenario. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From wally at booyaka.com Wed Dec 10 08:05:40 2008 From: wally at booyaka.com (Wallace Winfrey) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:05:40 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] recovering from a "no space left on device" error Message-ID: <493F6A44.9010904@booyaka.com> Earlier this morning the partition containing our mailman install (including archives) filled up. We were alerted to this by error messages being returned when trying to send emails. We cleared up some disk space, but did not restart mailman. Users no longer got the error message when posting to a list, so I figured all was well, and moved on to other tasks. A couple hours ago, a list member alerted me that the lists didn't seem to be sending out any mail. I checked the folder of what is normally a 75-100 message a day list and saw that no messages had been sent since the disk space issue. I restarted mailman, but it seems that the posts sent since the disk space issue was cleared up are going out very slowly. This is to be expected somewhat, but I was wondering if there was anything I could do to accelerate the process. Currently, qfiles/out has 158 .pck files. When I restarted mailman an hour ago, it was at 161. Assuming that mailman processes .pck files chronologically, it appears that only 15 messages have come into qfiles/out in the last hour, while 18 have gone out. Like I said, is there any way to expedite the out queue? Many of my qfiles directories have 0-length pck.tmp files: - qfiles/in has 398 0-length pck.tmp files (168 from today) - qfiles/bounces has 342 0-length pck.tmp files - qfiles/commands has 178 0-length pck.tmp files Is it ok to remove these? If so, is there a special way to remove them, like bin/discard for heldmsgs? I assume these 0-length files were created when the disk ran out of space. Also, qfiles/shunt currently has 11081 pickle files in it. I examined a few of them at random, and they all appear to be spam - some go back as far as 2006. Is there a proper way to clear out my qfiles/shunt directory as well? I did, of course, run unshunt, which temporarily cleared out the directory, but then repopulated it again after adding a few MB to the end of my mailman/logs/error file. I imagine I can just rm the 0-length files without issue, but manually removing .pck files from the data directory in the past has caused me headaches, so I wanted to make sure. Anything else mailman-related I should take into consideration after running out of disk space? cheers w From wally at booyaka.com Wed Dec 10 09:15:14 2008 From: wally at booyaka.com (Wallace Winfrey) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 01:15:14 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] recovering from a "no space left on device" error In-Reply-To: <493F6A44.9010904@booyaka.com> References: <493F6A44.9010904@booyaka.com> Message-ID: <493F7A92.4060400@booyaka.com> Wallace Winfrey wrote: > A couple hours ago, a list member alerted me that the lists didn't seem > to be sending out any mail. I checked the folder of what is normally a > 75-100 message a day list and saw that no messages had been sent since > the disk space issue. I restarted mailman, but it seems that the posts > sent since the disk space issue was cleared up are going out very > slowly. This is to be expected somewhat, but I was wondering if there > was anything I could do to accelerate the process. I hate to answer part of my own question, but I found that increasing the number of OutgoingRunners to 4 cleared the qfiles/out directory in about 15 minutes. cheers w From mark at msapiro.net Wed Dec 10 17:18:01 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:18:01 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] recovering from a "no space left on device" error In-Reply-To: <493F6A44.9010904@booyaka.com> Message-ID: Wallace Winfrey wrote: > >Currently, qfiles/out has 158 .pck files. When I restarted mailman an >hour ago, it was at 161. Assuming that mailman processes .pck files >chronologically, it appears that only 15 messages have come into >qfiles/out in the last hour, while 18 have gone out. Like I said, is >there any way to expedite the out queue? It appears from your subsequent post that running 4 slices of OutgoingRunner worked for this. >Many of my qfiles directories have 0-length pck.tmp files: > >- qfiles/in has 398 0-length pck.tmp files (168 from today) >- qfiles/bounces has 342 0-length pck.tmp files >- qfiles/commands has 178 0-length pck.tmp files > >Is it ok to remove these? If so, is there a special way to remove them, >like bin/discard for heldmsgs? I assume these 0-length files were >created when the disk ran out of space. I think you are correct, and yes, just remove them. There will be no negative consequences from doing so. Since they have no content, there's no way to recover the individual messages, but the original senders should have received DSNs from your MTA when the pipe to Mailman failed. >Also, qfiles/shunt currently has 11081 pickle files in it. I examined a >few of them at random, and they all appear to be spam - some go back as >far as 2006. Is there a proper way to clear out my qfiles/shunt >directory as well? I did, of course, run unshunt, which temporarily >cleared out the directory, but then repopulated it again after adding a >few MB to the end of my mailman/logs/error file. As you learned, running unshunt was not the thing to do. For unwanted, shunted messages, just remove the .pck files from qfiles/shunt. If there are any messages in qfiles/shunt that you want, you need to find the error log traceback from the shunting of the message and fix the underlying problem before you can unshunt the message. >I imagine I can just rm the 0-length files without issue, but manually >removing .pck files from the data directory in the past has caused me >headaches, so I wanted to make sure. The heldmsg*.pck files in data/ are different because there are other files, pending.pck and request.pck, that have information about them, and when, for example, generating the admindb page times out because of too many held messages, you need to remove the entries from the request.pck, and simply removing the heldmsg*.pck files doesn't do that. That's why youy need to use bin/discard on these. But, the files in qfiles/* don't have this problem and can just be rm'd. >Anything else mailman-related I should take into consideration after >running out of disk space? It's possible that one or more config.pck files were corrupted. If bin/list_lists runs with out error or the listinfo or admin overview pages work, you should be OK. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From Mark at arcabama.com Tue Dec 9 18:16:08 2008 From: Mark at arcabama.com (Mark A. Olbert) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:16:08 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] postfix integration question Message-ID: <91BCC9A94CAD5C49A06161F997A8B45015AB1FA2A4@Maestro.arcabama.com> I'm running into a GID problem in the interface between mailman and postfix. Here's the error message: (Command died with status 2: "/usr/mailman/mail/mailman post mailman". Command output: Group mismatch error. Mailman expected the mail wrapper script to be executed as group "mailman", but the system's mail server executed the mail script as group "nogroup". Try tweaking the mail server to run the script as group "mailman", or re-run configure, providing the command line option `--with-mail-gid=nogroup'.) In googling the problem I came across one purported solution which involved simply creating a separate aliases file for mailman aliases, whose group ownership was set to mailman. That didn't work, nor did setting the separate aliases file's group ownership to nogroup. Before I go in and reconfigure mailman I thought I'd check here and in the postfix users group to see if anyone had any other alternative solutions. - Mark "Too much sanity may be madness! But maddest of all -- to see life as it is and not as it should be." __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3677 (20081209) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From pkaszas at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 23:16:51 2008 From: pkaszas at gmail.com (Peter Kaszas) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 23:16:51 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] relaying and public lists Message-ID: <45c16ed00812091416i698ca3c9hc11174fbb7566e4a@mail.gmail.com> Hi! I have a frontend mailserver with postfix, it is configured to relay all mails which have destination: listname at list.example.com to my mailman server. This mailman server is in DMZ, it have LOCAL IP, and it is configured with postfix. In my postfix transport.db file I added the link to relay all @list.algotech.hu to mailman: My mailman-postfix host get mails from the frontend server. Everything is cool. But, when I wanted to setup some lists to accept mails from everybody (public list) (that means I accept mails also from non-listmembers without any moderation), that means I setup in Privacy Options ... -> Sender Filter -> General Non Memeber rule : ACCEPT!!!! But it doesnt do that. Still If I send a mail from a non subscribed account, It holds up, and waits for moderation.... How could it be posibble? Did I something make wrong? Thx. Peter From santaclarajim at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 20:17:23 2008 From: santaclarajim at yahoo.com (James Weingarten) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:17:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate Subscription Confirmations Message-ID: <210904.13124.qm@web30802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi. Have you ever seen Mailman issue duplicate subscription requests? When a user sends a request to subscribe, he is receiving two confirmations for each request. Nothing obvious is apparent in the logs and the confirmations are properly formatted. Email is flowing well (using Postfix as the MTA). Has anyone seen this problem before? Do you have any suggestions as to how to approach this problem? Here is some environmental information: OS - CentOS 5.2 (2.6.18-92.1.10.el5) Mailman - 2.1.9 Postfix - 2.3.3 Python - 2.4.3 Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jim From zoet13 at espora.org Thu Dec 11 00:23:05 2008 From: zoet13 at espora.org (Ray) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:23:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Excessive bounces unsuscription Message-ID: <35182.127.0.0.1.1228951385.squirrel@mail.espora.org> Hi. I'm Ray from espora.org. We're having some trouble with a mail list in our server. The fact is that we've all received an e-mail telling us about excessive bounces, so we've been all unsuscribed. We have no idea about what could be, so i'm writting all of you to know if you've experienced something like this, and tell me what can i try to do :) Thanks From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Thu Dec 11 18:43:21 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:43:21 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Excessive bounces unsuscription In-Reply-To: <35182.127.0.0.1.1228951385.squirrel@mail.espora.org> References: <35182.127.0.0.1.1228951385.squirrel@mail.espora.org> Message-ID: <49415139.6090000@riverviewtech.net> On 12/10/08 17:23, Ray wrote: > We're having some trouble with a mail list in our server. The fact is > that we've all received an e-mail telling us about excessive bounces, > so we've been all unsuscribed. We have no idea about what could be, > so i'm writting all of you to know if you've experienced something > like this, and tell me what can i try to do :) It sounds like you are responsible for both the mailing list and the mail server. As such, you should have access to mail logs that will give you some more clues as to what has happened. I'd expect there to be some information as to why a message was bounced in the bounce action notification that you received. What do either of these have to say? Grant. . . . From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 11 19:19:06 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:19:06 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] postfix integration question In-Reply-To: <91BCC9A94CAD5C49A06161F997A8B45015AB1FA2A4@Maestro.arcabama.com> Message-ID: Mark A. Olbert wrote: >I'm running into a GID problem in the interface between mailman and postfix. Here's the error message: > >(Command died with status 2: "/usr/mailman/mail/mailman post mailman". Command output: Group mismatch error. Mailman expected the mail wrapper script to be executed as group "mailman", but the system's mail server executed the mail script as group "nogroup". Try tweaking the mail server to run the script as group "mailman", or re-run configure, providing the command line option `--with-mail-gid=nogroup'.) The group of the user that ownes the aliases.db file in which the alias mailman: "|/usr/mailman/mail/mailman post mailman" appears is 'nogroup' which is not what Mailman expects. >In googling the problem I came across one purported solution which involved simply creating a separate aliases file for mailman aliases, whose group ownership was set to mailman. That didn't work, nor did setting the separate aliases file's group ownership to nogroup. It is getting group 'nogroup' it wants group 'mailman' The owner of the aliases.db file must have primary group 'mailman'. The group of the file itself is irrelevant. See for the recommended whay to set up Mailman with Postfix so that alias Maintenance is automatic. See also the "DELIVERY RIGHTS" paragraph in "man 8 local" and the FAQ at . -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From michael_lynn at ml.com Thu Dec 11 19:17:19 2008 From: michael_lynn at ml.com (Lynn, Michael (GWM-CAI)) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:17:19 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving mailman to a new directory (same server) Message-ID: I ran out of disk on the partition where mailman (/var) resides - I've gotten more disk assigned and I'm planning to move mailman to a new file system (/apps). I found the faq entry and information on moving mailman from one server to another... but I'm wondering if anyone is aware of any special precautions associated with moving to a new directory location. I already found paths.py and grep'd for occurances of /var throughout... I'm just wondering if I need to force a recompile of the pyc's... perhaps I'm better biting the bullet and re-installing from source...? Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message w/attachments (message) may be privileged, confidential or proprietary, and if you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender, do not use or share it and delete it. Unless specifically indicated, this message is not an offer to sell or a solicitation of any investment products or other financial product or service, an official confirmation of any transaction, or an official statement of Merrill Lynch. Subject to applicable law, Merrill Lynch may monitor, review and retain e-communications (EC) traveling through its networks/systems. The laws of the country of each sender/recipient may impact the handling of EC, and EC may be archived, supervised and produced in countries other than the country in which you are located. This message cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. This message is subject to terms available at the following link: http://www.ml.com/e-communications_terms/. By messaging with Merrill Lynch you consent to the foregoing. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 11 19:23:33 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:23:33 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate Subscription Confirmations In-Reply-To: <210904.13124.qm@web30802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: James Weingarten wrote: > >Have you ever seen Mailman issue duplicate subscription requests? > >When a user sends a request to subscribe, he is receiving two confirmations for each request. Probably because he is sending two subscribe commands to the -request address, one in the subject and one in the body. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 11 19:27:02 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:27:02 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] relaying and public lists In-Reply-To: <45c16ed00812091416i698ca3c9hc11174fbb7566e4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Peter Kaszas wrote: >But, when I wanted to setup some lists to accept mails from everybody >(public list) (that means I accept mails also from non-listmembers without >any moderation), that means I setup in Privacy Options ... -> Sender Filter >-> General Non Memeber rule : ACCEPT!!!! > >But it doesnt do that. Still If I send a mail from a non subscribed account, >It holds up, and waits for moderation.... How could it be posibble? Did I >something make wrong? What is the reason (from the hels message notice, the admindb interface or the vette log) why the message is held? -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 11 19:38:18 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:38:18 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Excessive bounces unsuscription In-Reply-To: <35182.127.0.0.1.1228951385.squirrel@mail.espora.org> Message-ID: Ray wrote: >We're having some trouble with a mail list in our server. The fact is that >we've all received an e-mail telling us about excessive bounces, so we've >been all unsuscribed. We have no idea about what could be, so i'm writting >all of you to know if you've experienced something like this, and tell me >what can i try to do :) What are the bounce processing settings for this list. It seems like you may have bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings set to 0 and bounce_score_threshold set to <=1.0 so that members are unsubscribed on the first bounce. Then if some glitch occurs in SMTP delivery causing a bounce for all recipients, everyone is unsubscribed. Setting bounce_score_threshold <=1.0 is only appropriate for lists which receive very little traffic. As to what actually happened, as Grant suggests, you need to look at logs. See the MTA logs and Mailman's bounce and smtp-failure logs for clues. Also, if bounce_notify_owner_on_disable is set to Yes, the owner notifications will contain more information about the disabling bounce. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 11 19:52:24 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:52:24 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving mailman to a new directory (same server) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lynn, Michael wrote: >I ran out of disk on the partition where mailman (/var) resides - I've >gotten more disk assigned and I'm planning to move mailman to a new file >system (/apps). > >I found the faq entry and information on moving mailman from one server >to another... but I'm wondering if anyone is aware of any special >precautions associated with moving to a new directory location. > >I already found paths.py and grep'd for occurances of /var throughout... >I'm just wondering if I need to force a recompile of the pyc's... >perhaps I'm better biting the bullet and re-installing from source...? I suggest you either do mv /var/?/mailman /apps/?/mailman ln -s /apps/?/mailman /var/?/mailman or you go all the way and rerun configure and make install. If you installed from source to begin with, this should be pretty simple. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 11 21:52:41 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:52:41 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate Subscription Confirmations In-Reply-To: <366686246-1229027037-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-647985297-@bxe341.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Jim wrote: > >I have confirmed that one user who received the duplicate confirmation did, indeed, have a "subscribe" in the subject and the body. > >Is there a way to protect against that behavior by the -request process? I would expect that process to detect that the requests were within the same email message and send only one response. Is there a reason it doesn't behave in that manner today? It could be done, but it is tricky. As it is, CommandRunner just processes the subject and up to DEFAULT_MAIL_COMMANDS_MAX_LINES (default 25) body lines one at a time until it gets a non-command or error except non-commands or errors in the subject are OK. If it gets a subscribe command for a member, it's an error, but if subscribe requires confirmation or approval, the subscribed address won't be a member when the second request is processed. Note that it is perfectly valid to have multiple subscribe commands in one message as each command can request subscription of a different address. So, in order to avoid accepting a second subscribe request for the same address, we could look at all the pending subscriptions and see if we have one for this address, but even then we can't just ignore this request as it might be intentional (say the confirmation email from the prior request was lost) so we'd have to make a decision based on how recent the prior request was. It seems like a lot of effort for something that occurs infrequently and does no real harm. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From faisalanif at hotmail.com Fri Dec 12 10:00:35 2008 From: faisalanif at hotmail.com (faisal anif) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:00:35 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] automatically remove uncaught bounces Message-ID: Hi, I recieve hundreds of messages everyday as uncaught bounce notifications and most of them are spam ADs of pills and stuff sent to my list.. and some of them are actually uncaught bounces by mailman. I can't keep opening the messages everyday to filter them, on the other hand I can't afford to ignore the actual uncaught spams in order not to be blocked by their corresponding mail servers! is there a way to let mailman unsubscribe the addresses of uncaught spams automatically from my lists instead of sending it to me? Thanks.. _________________________________________________________________ Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy! http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us From mark at msapiro.net Fri Dec 12 16:34:18 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 07:34:18 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] automatically remove uncaught bounces In-Reply-To: Message-ID: faisal anif wrote: > >I recieve hundreds of messages everyday as uncaught bounce notifications and most of them are spam ADs of pills and stuff sent to my list.. and some of them are actually uncaught bounces by mailman. I can't keep opening the messages everyday to filter them, on the other hand I can't afford to ignore the actual uncaught spams in order not to be blocked by their corresponding mail servers! > >is there a way to let mailman unsubscribe the addresses of uncaught spams automatically from my lists instead of sending it to me? If Mailman could recognize the DSN as such and extract the address from it, it wouldn't be "uncaught"; it would be handled be bounce processing. If you collect the legitimate bounces that are unrecognized and send them to me off list, I can try to update the recognizers to recognize them. However, please don't do this unless you are running a recent Mailman, at least 2.1.9 or preferably 2.1.11, since otherwise you will probably be sending me ones that are already recognized in later Mailman. Also, don't send me non-English language DSNs unless they have an RFC3464 compliant message/delivery-status part. Also note, that if you enable VERP in Mailman (or in your MTA), legitimate bounces will never be unrecognized. Set VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1 in mm_cfg.py to enable it in Mailman. Finally, it would help greatly if you would install some effective spam filtering ahead of Mailman. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Fri Dec 12 21:24:20 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:24:20 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Permission issues - was: Duplicate Subscription Confirmations In-Reply-To: <577719.96338.qm@web30803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: James Weingarten wrote: > >I had a problem with permissions that prevented the Mailman GUI from >successfully creating list. The GUI returned the following error: > >Bug in Mailman version 2.1.9 >We're sorry, we hit a bug! >Please inform the webmaster for this site of this >problem. Printing of traceback and other system information has been >explicitly inhibited, but the webmaster can find this information in the >Mailman error logs. > > >and the error log shows: > >Dec 12 11:35:27 2008 (3669) command failed: /usr/sbin/postalias /etc/mailman/aliases (status: 1, Operation not permitted) >Dec 12 11:35:27 2008 admin(3669): @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ >admin(3669): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.9 -----] >admin(3669): [----- Traceback ------] >admin(3669): Traceback (most recent call last): >admin(3669): File "/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/driver", line 101, in run_main >admin(3669): main() >admin(3669): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 56, in main >admin(3669): process_request(doc, cgidata) >admin(3669): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 238, in process_request >admin(3669): sys.modules[modname].create(mlist, cgi=1) >admin(3669): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 232, in create >admin(3669): _update_maps() >admin(3669): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 53, in _update_maps >admin(3669): raise RuntimeError, msg % (acmd, status, errstr) >admin(3669): RuntimeError: command failed: /usr/sbin/postalias /etc/mailman/aliases (status: 1, Operation not permitted) > >The problem was alleged to be caused by thefact that the web server process owner "apache" was calling this process. Apparently, this user did not have permissions to execute the command. After fiddling with ownerships and permissions, I was never able to resolve the problem and had to resort to command line "newlist" to create all lists. Do you have any idea what is causing this problem? Yes, it is permissions. Actually, in the above case, the list was created and its aliases were added to /etc/mailman/aliases and only the the execution of /usr/sbin/postalias to update the aliases.db file failed. I suspect since the aliases are in /etc/mailman, that this is a RedHat package. I'm not 100% certain how to translate what I know into this RedHat structure, but 1) All the files (wrappers) in /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/ (in particular for this, /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/create) should be group 'mailman' and SETGID. Typically they are like -rwxr-sr-x 1 root mailman 15993 Jun 30 11:23 create although the owner isn't important. 2) The files /etc/mailman/aliases and /etc/mailman/aliases.db need to be group writable and group 'mailman'. E.g. -rw-rw---- 1 root mailman 7193 Dec 3 13:08 aliases -rw-rw---- 1 mailman mailman 12288 Dec 3 13:08 aliases.db If that doesn't resolve the problem, it may be a SELinux issue. >Also, (and this may be related), I am seeing the following error in the Mailman error log: > >Dec 11 15:51:24 2008 (2107) SHUNTING: 1229039483.4080291+18102d31f7e1d52f9d4ca593ddb48d23f9e7d00e >Dec 11 15:51:24 2008 (2104) Archive file access failure: > /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox' >Dec 11 15:51:24 2008 (2104) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox' >Dec 11 15:51:24 2008 (2104) Traceback (most recent call last): > File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 112, in _oneloop > self._onefile(msg, msgdata) > File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 170, in _onefile > keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata) > File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 73, in _dispose > mlist.ArchiveMail(msg) > File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 200, in ArchiveMail > self.__archive_to_mbox(msg) > File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 169, in __archive_to_mbox > mbox = self.__archive_file(afn) > File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 157, in __archive_file > return Mailbox.Mailbox(open(afn, 'a+')) >IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox' > >The "check_perms" command reports no problems. What should the owner be for the archive directories and files? What should the permissions be? There are some known problems with check_perms and archives. the directories /var/lib/mailman/, /var/lib/mailman/archives/ and all subordinate directories except for /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/ itself and the /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/LISTNAME/database directories should be drwxrwsr-x 5 owner mailman (owner doesn't matter) /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/ should be either drwxrws--x 5 owner mailman or drwxrws--- 5 apache mailman assuming apache is the web server user. The /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/LISTNAME/database directories should be drwxrws--- 5 owner mailman All the files should be group writable and group 'mailman' and except for those in the /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/LISTNAME/database directories, they should be world readable. This is not related to the create error except in that they are both permissions issues. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk Thu Dec 11 19:32:26 2008 From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:32:26 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving mailman to a new directory (same server) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081211183225.GN1778@amyl.org.uk> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 01:17:19PM -0500, Lynn, Michael (GWM-CAI) wrote: > I ran out of disk on the partition where mailman (/var) resides - I've > gotten more disk assigned and I'm planning to move mailman to a new file > system (/apps). I'd tend to be lazy, and would hope that symlinking would do the job. YMMV, tho'. From mgtuiw at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 09:15:13 2008 From: mgtuiw at gmail.com (haha) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:15:13 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to export googlegroup mail to mailman Message-ID: Hi I have a trouble: How to export googlegroup mail to mailman ??? thanks!!! From rich at math.missouri.edu Fri Dec 12 00:18:42 2008 From: rich at math.missouri.edu (Rich Winkel) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:18:42 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Enabling SSL Message-ID: <20081211231842.GL83134@pencil.math.missouri.edu> Does anyone have a recipe for redirecting http: connections to https? Thanks, Rich From rich at math.missouri.edu Fri Dec 12 01:46:34 2008 From: rich at math.missouri.edu (Rich Winkel) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:46:34 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Impact of hostname change? Message-ID: <20081212004634.GP83134@pencil.math.missouri.edu> I currently have mailman set up on a test server but will be going to production, when the hostname will change, so all the list addresses will change too. Will mailman handle this cleanly or do I need to reconfigure something? I'm using postfix. This is a very very nice package btw, kudos to the developers!!! Thanks!! Rich From santaclarajim at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 20:29:57 2008 From: santaclarajim at yahoo.com (James Weingarten) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:29:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate Subscription Confirmations References: Message-ID: <577719.96338.qm@web30803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thank you, Mark. I think you're right. I don't see the problem often enough to merit implementing a fix. I do have one additional pair of questions, if you please. I had a problem with permissions that prevented the Mailman GUI from successfully creating list. The GUI returned the following error: Bug in Mailman version 2.1.9 We're sorry, we hit a bug! Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited, but the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs. and the error log shows: Dec 12 11:35:27 2008 (3669) command failed: /usr/sbin/postalias /etc/mailman/aliases (status: 1, Operation not permitted) Dec 12 11:35:27 2008 admin(3669): @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ admin(3669): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.9 -----] admin(3669): [----- Traceback ------] admin(3669): Traceback (most recent call last): admin(3669): File "/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/driver", line 101, in run_main admin(3669): main() admin(3669): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 56, in main admin(3669): process_request(doc, cgidata) admin(3669): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 238, in process_request admin(3669): sys.modules[modname].create(mlist, cgi=1) admin(3669): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 232, in create admin(3669): _update_maps() admin(3669): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 53, in _update_maps admin(3669): raise RuntimeError, msg % (acmd, status, errstr) admin(3669): RuntimeError: command failed: /usr/sbin/postalias /etc/mailman/aliases (status: 1, Operation not permitted) admin(3669): [----- Python Information -----] admin(3669): sys.version = 2.4.3 (#1, May 24 2008, 13:47:28) [GCC 4.1.2 20070626 (Red Hat 4.1.2-14)] admin(3669): sys.executable = /usr/bin/python admin(3669): sys.prefix = /usr admin(3669): sys.exec_prefix = /usr admin(3669): sys.path = /usr admin(3669): sys.platform = linux2 admin(3669): [----- Environment Variables -----] admin(3669): HTTP_COOKIE: campaignions+admin=280200000069b64b4149732800000030666530653230363239653337353438316264303639656238333931376436376433323766386362 admin(3669): SERVER_SOFTWARE: Apache/2.2.3 (CentOS) admin(3669): SCRIPT_NAME: /mailman/create admin(3669): SERVER_SIGNATURE:
Apache/2.2.3 (CentOS) Server at hostname.com Port 80
admin(3669): admin(3669): REQUEST_METHOD: POST admin(3669): HTTP_KEEP_ALIVE: 300 admin(3669): SERVER_PROTOCOL: HTTP/1.1 admin(3669): QUERY_STRING: admin(3669): CONTENT_LENGTH: 153 admin(3669): HTTP_ACCEPT_CHARSET: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7 admin(3669): HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.2; en-US; rv:1.9.0.4) Gecko/2008102920 Firefox/3.0.4 admin(3669): HTTP_CONNECTION: keep-alive admin(3669): HTTP_REFERER: http://hostname.com/mailman/create admin(3669): SERVER_NAME: hostname.com admin(3669): REMOTE_ADDR: X.X.X.X admin(3669): SERVER_PORT: 80 admin(3669): SERVER_ADDR: X.X.X.X admin(3669): DOCUMENT_ROOT: /var/www/html admin(3669): PYTHONPATH: /usr/lib/mailman admin(3669): SCRIPT_FILENAME: /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/create admin(3669): SERVER_ADMIN: root at localhost admin(3669): HTTP_HOST: hostname.com admin(3669): REQUEST_URI: /mailman/create admin(3669): HTTP_ACCEPT: text/html,application/xhtml+xml,application/xml;q=0.9,*/*;q=0.8 admin(3669): GATEWAY_INTERFACE: CGI/1.1 admin(3669): REMOTE_PORT: 3314 admin(3669): HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE: en-us,en;q=0.5 admin(3669): CONTENT_TYPE: application/x-www-form-urlencoded admin(3669): HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING: gzip,deflate The problem was alleged to be caused by thefact that the web server process owner "apache" was calling this process. Apparently, this user did not have permissions to execute the command. After fiddling with ownerships and permissions, I was never able to resolve the problem and had to resort to command line "newlist" to create all lists. Do you have any idea what is causing this problem? Also, (and this may be related), I am seeing the following error in the Mailman error log: Dec 11 15:51:24 2008 (2107) SHUNTING: 1229039483.4080291+18102d31f7e1d52f9d4ca593ddb48d23f9e7d00e Dec 11 15:51:24 2008 (2104) Archive file access failure: /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox' Dec 11 15:51:24 2008 (2104) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox' Dec 11 15:51:24 2008 (2104) Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 112, in _oneloop self._onefile(msg, msgdata) File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 170, in _onefile keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata) File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 73, in _dispose mlist.ArchiveMail(msg) File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 200, in ArchiveMail self.__archive_to_mbox(msg) File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 169, in __archive_to_mbox mbox = self.__archive_file(afn) File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 157, in __archive_file return Mailbox.Mailbox(open(afn, 'a+')) IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox' The "check_perms" command reports no problems. What should the owner be for the archive directories and files? What should the permissions be? Do you think these issues are related? Thanks, Jim ----- Original Message ---- From: Mark Sapiro To: santaclarajim at yahoo.com; mailman-users at python.org Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 12:52:41 PM Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate Subscription Confirmations Jim wrote: > >I have confirmed that one user who received the duplicate confirmation did, indeed, have a "subscribe" in the subject and the body. > >Is there a way to protect against that behavior by the -request process? I would expect that process to detect that the requests were within the same email message and send only one response. Is there a reason it doesn't behave in that manner today? It could be done, but it is tricky. As it is, CommandRunner just processes the subject and up to DEFAULT_MAIL_COMMANDS_MAX_LINES (default 25) body lines one at a time until it gets a non-command or error except non-commands or errors in the subject are OK. If it gets a subscribe command for a member, it's an error, but if subscribe requires confirmation or approval, the subscribed address won't be a member when the second request is processed. Note that it is perfectly valid to have multiple subscribe commands in one message as each command can request subscription of a different address. So, in order to avoid accepting a second subscribe request for the same address, we could look at all the pending subscriptions and see if we have one for this address, but even then we can't just ignore this request as it might be intentional (say the confirmation email from the prior request was lost) so we'd have to make a decision based on how recent the prior request was. It seems like a lot of effort for something that occurs infrequently and does no real harm. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Fri Dec 12 22:07:58 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:07:58 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Enabling SSL In-Reply-To: <20081211231842.GL83134@pencil.math.missouri.edu> References: <20081211231842.GL83134@pencil.math.missouri.edu> Message-ID: <4942D2AE.10308@riverviewtech.net> On 12/11/2008 05:18 PM, Rich Winkel wrote: > Does anyone have a recipe for redirecting http: connections to https? This is out side the scope of Mailman as it its self is not a web server. What web server are you using? If you are using Apache (with mod_rewite), it is trivial to do the redirect(s). Grant. . . . From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Fri Dec 12 22:10:07 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:10:07 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to export googlegroup mail to mailman In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4942D32F.6090705@riverviewtech.net> On 12/12/2008 02:15 AM, haha wrote: > How to export googlegroup mail to mailman ??? Are you wanting to export a true Google Group (Google's mailing lists) or a Google Group interface to a newsgroup? If it is the true Google Group, I'd think you could subscribe your mailing list to said group(s) and utilize your own mailing list as a gateway. Though I'm not sure how advisable doing this is. Grant. . . . From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Fri Dec 12 22:15:17 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:15:17 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] automatically remove uncaught bounces In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4942D465.8090503@riverviewtech.net> On 12/12/2008 03:00 AM, faisal anif wrote: > is there a way to let mailman unsubscribe the addresses of uncaught > spams automatically from my lists instead of sending it to me? Slightly off topic, but still related. I'm trying to think (and not having much luck at the moment) what SMTP envelope address Mailman sends messages from. I believe the address is different than the address for the list (or -request type) but I'm not sure. /If/ (and that's a kicker) the address *is* different, you might be able to do something like Sendmail's "Protected Recipients" tweak. In short P.R. only allows inbound messages to the ""protected recipient if the sender is on a allowed list. The idea being that if Mailman is the only one that would be sending to the address that it's messages are sent from, you could restrict what message could come in to it if they were not sent by Mailman its self. Just a thought. Grant. . . . From mark at msapiro.net Fri Dec 12 22:24:44 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:24:44 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Enabling SSL In-Reply-To: <20081211231842.GL83134@pencil.math.missouri.edu> Message-ID: Rich Winkel wrote: >Does anyone have a recipe for redirecting http: connections to https? If you're talking about for Mailman, see the FAQ at . -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Fri Dec 12 22:27:44 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:27:44 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to export googlegroup mail to mailman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: haha wrote: > >I have a trouble: > How to export googlegroup mail to mailman ??? Do you mean archives? If so, Archives need to be in *nix mbox format to be imported to Mailman (using Mailman's bin/arch). How to export Google Groups archives as a mbox is a Google Groups question. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Fri Dec 12 22:36:22 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:36:22 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] automatically remove uncaught bounces In-Reply-To: <4942D465.8090503@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: Grant Taylor wrote: >On 12/12/2008 03:00 AM, faisal anif wrote: >> is there a way to let mailman unsubscribe the addresses of uncaught >> spams automatically from my lists instead of sending it to me? > >Slightly off topic, but still related. > >I'm trying to think (and not having much luck at the moment) what SMTP >envelope address Mailman sends messages from. I believe the address is >different than the address for the list (or -request type) but I'm not >sure. /If/ (and that's a kicker) the address *is* different, you might >be able to do something like Sendmail's "Protected Recipients" tweak. >In short P.R. only allows inbound messages to the ""protected recipient >if the sender is on a allowed list. The idea being that if Mailman is >the only one that would be sending to the address that it's messages are >sent from, you could restrict what message could come in to it if they >were not sent by Mailman its self. Mailman sends mail from LISTNAME-bounces at ... DSNs are returned by foreign (in some cases) MTAs to that address. Spam is also sent to that address. Since a valid DSN can come from anywhere, your suggestion doesn't seem viable. Note however, that a valid DSN should have a null envelope sender and possibly only delivering mail to LISTNAME-bounces at ... if the envelope sender is null might help, but the OP's issue was that some unrecognized bounces were legitimate bounces, and since to be unrecognized, they must be non-compliant in the first place, there's no guarantee they would have a null envelope sender. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Fri Dec 12 22:38:19 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:38:19 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Impact of hostname change? In-Reply-To: <20081212004634.GP83134@pencil.math.missouri.edu> Message-ID: Rich Winkel wrote: >I currently have mailman set up on a test server but will be going >to production, when the hostname will change, so all the list >addresses will change too. Will mailman handle this cleanly or do I >need to reconfigure something? I'm using postfix. See the FAQ at . -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From rich at math.missouri.edu Fri Dec 12 23:21:13 2008 From: rich at math.missouri.edu (Rich Winkel) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:21:13 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Enabling SSL In-Reply-To: References: <20081211231842.GL83134@pencil.math.missouri.edu> Message-ID: <20081212222113.GW83134@pencil.math.missouri.edu> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 01:24:44PM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote: > Rich Winkel wrote: > >Does anyone have a recipe for redirecting http: connections to https? > > If you're talking about for Mailman, see the FAQ at > . Yes, thanks, that's part of what I was looking for. Unfortunately this page doesn't address the apache rewrite issue, but here's something that works for me with apache 2.2. Edit httpd.conf and: RewriteEngine on Options FollowSymLinks ExecCGI AllowOverride None Order allow,deny Allow from 128.206.184.195 RewriteCond %{SERVER_PORT} !^443$ RewriteRule ^.*$ https://%{SERVER_NAME}%{REQUEST_URI} [L,R] I found this at the bottom of: http://www.whoopis.com/howtos/apache-rewrite.html Rich From mark at msapiro.net Sat Dec 13 00:54:11 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:54:11 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Enabling SSL In-Reply-To: <20081212222113.GW83134@pencil.math.missouri.edu> Message-ID: Rich Winkel wrote: >On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 01:24:44PM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote: >> Rich Winkel wrote: >> >Does anyone have a recipe for redirecting http: connections to https? >> >> If you're talking about for Mailman, see the FAQ at >> . > >Yes, thanks, that's part of what I was looking for. Unfortunately >this page doesn't address the apache rewrite issue, but here's >something that works for me with apache 2.2. Edit httpd.conf and: > > > RewriteEngine on > Options FollowSymLinks ExecCGI > AllowOverride None > Order allow,deny > Allow from 128.206.184.195 > RewriteCond %{SERVER_PORT} !^443$ > RewriteRule ^.*$ https://%{SERVER_NAME}%{REQUEST_URI} [L,R] > I added a Mailman specific example to the FAQ RewriteEngine on RewriteCond %{HTTPS} off [NC] RewriteRule ^/mailman(/.*) https://%{HTTP_HOST}/mailman$1 [L,R=permanent] -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mgtuiw at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 03:26:59 2008 From: mgtuiw at gmail.com (haha) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 02:26:59 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to export googlegroup mail to mailman In-Reply-To: References: <4942D32F.6090705@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 2:24 AM, haha wrote: > Thanks !! > > I find a script in http://libgmail.sourceforge.net/, it cat download mail > of my gmail, but it alway appear error : > """ > 11e2d6c674f24487 5 crypto(9) choose another driver if we cannot open a > session on it > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "archive.py", line 79, in > for msg in thread: > File "/home/minix/software/libgmail-0.1.11/libgmail.py", line 1368, in > __iter__ > self._messages = self._getMessages(self) > File "/home/minix/software/libgmail-0.1.11/libgmail.py", line 1406, in > _getMessages > result += [GmailMessage(thread, msg, isDraft = isDraft)] > File "/home/minix/software/libgmail-0.1.11/libgmail.py", line 1445, in > __init__ > self.author_fullname = msgData[MI_AUTHORNAME].decode('utf-8') > File "/usr/local/lib/python2.5/encodings/utf_8.py", line 16, in decode > return codecs.utf_8_decode(input, errors, True) > UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode characters in position > 15-16: ordinal not in range(128) > """ > I think this ASCII error!! > > i only find the method! but it not to achieve my hope!! > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 9:10 PM, Grant Taylor wrote: > >> On 12/12/2008 02:15 AM, haha wrote: >> >>> How to export googlegroup mail to mailman ??? >>> >> >> Are you wanting to export a true Google Group (Google's mailing lists) or >> a Google Group interface to a newsgroup? >> >> If it is the true Google Group, I'd think you could subscribe your mailing >> list to said group(s) and utilize your own mailing list as a gateway. >> Though I'm not sure how advisable doing this is. >> >> >> >> Grant. . . . >> ------------------------------------------------------ >> Mailman-Users mailing list >> Mailman-Users at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users >> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 >> Searchable Archives: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ >> Unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/mgtuiw%40gmail.com >> >> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 >> > > From mgtuiw at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 03:43:35 2008 From: mgtuiw at gmail.com (haha) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 02:43:35 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to export googlegroup mail to mailman In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > haha wrote: > > > >I have a trouble: > > How to export googlegroup mail to mailman ??? > > > Do you mean archives? > > If so, Archives need to be in *nix mbox format to be imported to > Mailman (using Mailman's bin/arch). I've another mail-list and now I need to migrate from Google Group to the new mail-list. I've found a script which can export the archives( http://libgmail.sourceforge.net) but it failed. It seems that the script can't handle Unicode every well. > > How to export Google Groups archives as a mbox is a Google Groups > question. > > -- > Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, > San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan > > From mark at msapiro.net Sat Dec 13 03:51:57 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 18:51:57 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to export googlegroup mail to mailman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: haha wrote: >On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 2:24 AM, haha wrote: > >> Thanks !! >> >> I find a script in http://libgmail.sourceforge.net/, it cat download mail >> of my gmail, but it alway appear error : >> """ >> 11e2d6c674f24487 5 crypto(9) choose another driver if we cannot open a >> session on it >> Traceback (most recent call last): >> File "archive.py", line 79, in >> for msg in thread: >> File "/home/minix/software/libgmail-0.1.11/libgmail.py", line 1368, in >> __iter__ >> self._messages = self._getMessages(self) >> File "/home/minix/software/libgmail-0.1.11/libgmail.py", line 1406, in >> _getMessages >> result += [GmailMessage(thread, msg, isDraft = isDraft)] >> File "/home/minix/software/libgmail-0.1.11/libgmail.py", line 1445, in >> __init__ >> self.author_fullname = msgData[MI_AUTHORNAME].decode('utf-8') >> File "/usr/local/lib/python2.5/encodings/utf_8.py", line 16, in decode >> return codecs.utf_8_decode(input, errors, True) >> UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode characters in position >> 15-16: ordinal not in range(128) >> """ >> I think this ASCII error!! This error says there is something wrong with your Python installation since it is complaining that the 'ascii' codec can't decode characters outside the 0 to 127 range, yet decode has been invoked with a character set of 'utf-8' so there should be no 'ascii' codec involved. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From cyndi at norwitz.net Sat Dec 13 17:37:40 2008 From: cyndi at norwitz.net (Cyndi Norwitz) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 08:37:40 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Filter for exact domain names Message-ID: <6031488C-0160-48A2-B58F-256DFEB67586@norwitz.net> I am getting a lot of spam post attempts from a domain tom.com. I would like to do an automatic discard in discard_these_nonmembers for this domain. I can add this line of code: ^[^@]+@(.*\.)?tom\.com$ But I am concerned that this will discard all .com domain names that end with tom, which may be some legit ones. I do not understand the code as it's different from anything I've worked with and the above recipe (which I mucked up several times on my own despite some trips to the FAQ) came from Mark. My guess is I need to remove the question mark, but I'd like confirmation first. Thanks, Cyndi From mark at msapiro.net Sat Dec 13 18:42:13 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 09:42:13 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Filter for exact domain names In-Reply-To: <6031488C-0160-48A2-B58F-256DFEB67586@norwitz.net> Message-ID: Cyndi Norwitz wrote: >I am getting a lot of spam post attempts from a domain tom.com. I >would like to do an automatic discard in discard_these_nonmembers for >this domain. > >I can add this line of code: ^[^@]+@(.*\.)?tom\.com$ > >But I am concerned that this will discard all .com domain names that >end with tom, which may be some legit ones. It won't >I do not understand the code as it's different from anything I've >worked with and the above recipe (which I mucked up several times on >my own despite some trips to the FAQ) came from Mark. My guess is I >need to remove the question mark, but I'd like confirmation first. It you remove the question mark, the regexp will match only sub-domains of tom.com. I.e., it will match x at y.tom.com, but not x at tom.com. As it is, it will match either of those, and it won't match x at tomtom.com because the piece preceding tom.com doesn't end with a period. Here's what it says: ^[^@]+ matches the beginning of the line and 1 or more non-@ characters, so ^[^@]+@ matches everything up to the first @ as long as there is at least one character before the @. Then (.*\.)? matches 0 or 1 occurrences of anything that ends with a literal period - the ? says 0 or 1 of the preceding. Then tom\.com$ matches if the remainder ends with 'tom.com'. So the whole regexp matches at least one non-@ followed by @ optionally followed by anything that ends with a period followed by tom.com at the end. See . -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From cyndi at norwitz.net Sat Dec 13 20:02:36 2008 From: cyndi at norwitz.net (Cyndi Norwitz) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:02:36 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Filter for exact domain names In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 13, 2008, at 9:42 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > Cyndi Norwitz wrote: > >> I can add this line of code: ^[^@]+@(.*\.)?tom\.com$ >> >> But I am concerned that this will discard all .com domain names that >> end with tom, which may be some legit ones. > > It won't Great. > So the whole regexp matches > > at least one non-@ followed by @ optionally followed by anything that > ends with a period followed by tom.com at the end. Thanks, I've gone ahead and added the code. Much appreciated. Cyndi From mark at msapiro.net Sat Dec 13 21:55:48 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 12:55:48 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Filter for exact domain names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Cyndi Norwitz wrote: > >On Dec 13, 2008, at 9:42 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > >> Cyndi Norwitz wrote: >> >>> I can add this line of code: ^[^@]+@(.*\.)?tom\.com$ >>> >>> But I am concerned that this will discard all .com domain names that >>> end with tom, which may be some legit ones. >> >> It won't > >Great. > >> So the whole regexp matches >> >> at least one non-@ followed by @ optionally followed by anything that >> ends with a period followed by tom.com at the end. > >Thanks, I've gone ahead and added the code. Note that another regexp which will do the same thing and might be easier to understand is ^.*[@.]tom\.com$ This will match anything that ends with @tom.com or .tom.com. Note however that my experience with trying to use regexps in discard_these_nonmembers to keep spam from being held is that it isn't worth it. You may see the same domain a bunch of times, but by the time you get around to discarding it, it's probably on the way out anyway. Also, only the message-id of discarded messages is logged by Mailman, so figuring out if any particular discard_these_nonmembers entry is still being hit is difficult. In my case, I've found a combination of greylisting and spam and virus scanning in the MTA is much more effective, but there's no one-size fits all solution. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From stephen at xemacs.org Sun Dec 14 01:35:59 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:35:59 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Filter for exact domain names In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87fxkr8ufk.fsf@xemacs.org> Mark Sapiro writes: > Note however that my experience with trying to use regexps in > discard_these_nonmembers to keep spam from being held is that it isn't > worth it. You may see the same domain a bunch of times, but by the > time you get around to discarding it, it's probably on the way out > anyway. The following (Chinese) domains are perennial offenders (and I do mean *years*): tom.com, 163.com, 126.com, and 263.com. Unfortunately, I have (or have had) subscribers apparently from all of them (maybe there's a lot of Chinese-origin spam "Created by XEmacs"? :-/), so I've needed to filter at the list-moderator level. > Also, only the message-id of discarded messages is logged by > Mailman, so figuring out if any particular discard_these_nonmembers > entry is still being hit is difficult. That's true. If your host is already running SpamAssassin, it might be possible to enable user filters, and then you could blacklist those on a per-list basis (I'm not sure how hard it is to associate a user- as-SpamAssassin-understands-it with a mailing list, though). From cyndi at norwitz.net Sun Dec 14 06:15:20 2008 From: cyndi at norwitz.net (Cyndi Norwitz) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:15:20 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Filter for exact domain names In-Reply-To: <87fxkr8ufk.fsf@xemacs.org> References: <87fxkr8ufk.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: On Dec 13, 2008, at 4:35 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > The following (Chinese) domains are perennial offenders (and I do mean > *years*): tom.com, 163.com, 126.com, and 263.com. Thanks, I added those too. >> Also, only the message-id of discarded messages is logged by >> Mailman, so figuring out if any particular discard_these_nonmembers >> entry is still being hit is difficult. As Mark points out, the whole domain filters don't catch much because the domain change frequently, so I just have discarded messages sent to me. That way I can catch the mistakes, if any (only one so far, from clicking the wrong box (from an email address, not a domain filter)). I can't use graymail/spam programs because I don't have access to the root where MM is. Using these tools is imperfect but it does save me some time and annoyance. Wishlist: can you make the screen showing the list of addresses/code lines bigger? It's very hard to navigate. Ideally, it would be small when on a page with lots of other commands but expand when you click on the individual command. Thanks, Cyndi From CMarcus at Media-Brokers.com Fri Dec 12 22:10:52 2008 From: CMarcus at Media-Brokers.com (Charles Marcus) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:10:52 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Enabling SSL In-Reply-To: <20081211231842.GL83134@pencil.math.missouri.edu> References: <20081211231842.GL83134@pencil.math.missouri.edu> Message-ID: <4942D35C.5020009@Media-Brokers.com> On 12/11/2008, Rich Winkel (rich at math.missouri.edu) wrote: > Does anyone have a recipe for redirecting http: connections to > https? Apache? Was that a trick question? -- Best regards, Charles From santaclarajim at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 23:25:40 2008 From: santaclarajim at yahoo.com (James Weingarten) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:25:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate Subscription Confirmations Message-ID: <704299.90150.qm@web30805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thank you, Mark. I think you're right. I don't see the problem often enough to merit implementing a fix. I do have one additional pair of questions, if you please. I had a problem with permissions that prevented the Mailman GUI from successfully creating list. The GUI returned the following error: Bug in Mailman version 2.1.9 We're sorry, we hit a bug! Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited, but the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs. and the error log shows: Dec 12 11:35:27 2008 (3669) command failed: /usr/sbin/postalias /etc/mailman/aliases (status: 1, Operation not permitted) Dec 12 11:35:27 2008 admin(3669): @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ admin(3669): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.9 -----] admin(3669): [----- Traceback ------] admin(3669): Traceback (most recent call last): admin(3669): File "/usr/lib/mailman/scripts/driver", line 101, in run_main admin(3669): main() admin(3669): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 56, in main admin(3669): process_request(doc, cgidata) admin(3669): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 238, in process_request admin(3669): sys.modules[modname].create(mlist, cgi=1) admin(3669): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 232, in create admin(3669): _update_maps() admin(3669): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 53, in _update_maps admin(3669): raise RuntimeError, msg % (acmd, status, errstr) admin(3669): RuntimeError: command failed: /usr/sbin/postalias /etc/mailman/aliases (status: 1, Operation not permitted) admin(3669): [----- Python Information -----] admin(3669): sys.version = 2.4.3 (#1, May 24 2008, 13:47:28) [GCC 4.1.2 20070626 (Red Hat 4.1.2-14)] admin(3669): sys.executable = /usr/bin/python admin(3669): sys.prefix = /usr admin(3669): sys.exec_prefix = /usr admin(3669): sys.path = /usr admin(3669): sys.platform = linux2 admin(3669): [----- Environment Variables -----] admin(3669): HTTP_COOKIE: campaignions+admin=280200000069b64b4149732800000030666530653230363239653337353438316264303639656238333931376436376433323766386362 admin(3669): SERVER_SOFTWARE: Apache/2.2.3 (CentOS) admin(3669): SCRIPT_NAME: /mailman/create admin(3669): SERVER_SIGNATURE:
Apache/2.2.3 (CentOS) Server at hostname.com Port 80
admin(3669): admin(3669): REQUEST_METHOD: POST admin(3669): HTTP_KEEP_ALIVE: 300 admin(3669): SERVER_PROTOCOL: HTTP/1.1 admin(3669): QUERY_STRING: admin(3669): CONTENT_LENGTH: 153 admin(3669): HTTP_ACCEPT_CHARSET: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7 admin(3669): HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.2; en-US; rv:1.9.0.4) Gecko/2008102920 Firefox/3.0.4 admin(3669): HTTP_CONNECTION: keep-alive admin(3669): HTTP_REFERER: http://hostname.com/mailman/create admin(3669): SERVER_NAME: hostname.com admin(3669): REMOTE_ADDR: X.X.X.X admin(3669): SERVER_PORT: 80 admin(3669): SERVER_ADDR: X.X.X.X admin(3669): DOCUMENT_ROOT: /var/www/html admin(3669): PYTHONPATH: /usr/lib/mailman admin(3669): SCRIPT_FILENAME: /usr/lib/mailman/cgi-bin/create admin(3669): SERVER_ADMIN: root at localhost admin(3669): HTTP_HOST: hostname.com admin(3669): REQUEST_URI: /mailman/create admin(3669): HTTP_ACCEPT: text/html,application/xhtml+xml,application/xml;q=0.9,*/*;q=0.8 admin(3669): GATEWAY_INTERFACE: CGI/1.1 admin(3669): REMOTE_PORT: 3314 admin(3669): HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE: en-us,en;q=0.5 admin(3669): CONTENT_TYPE: application/x-www-form-urlencoded admin(3669): HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING: gzip,deflate The problem was alleged to be caused by thefact that the web server process owner "apache" was calling this process. Apparently, this user did not have permissions to execute the command. After fiddling with ownerships and permissions, I was never able to resolve the problem and had to resort to command line "newlist" to create all lists. Do you have any idea what is causing this problem? Also, (and this may be related), I am seeing the following error in the Mailman error log: Dec 11 15:51:24 2008 (2107) SHUNTING: 1229039483.4080291+18102d31f7e1d52f9d4ca593ddb48d23f9e7d00e Dec 11 15:51:24 2008 (2104) Archive file access failure: /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox' Dec 11 15:51:24 2008 (2104) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox' Dec 11 15:51:24 2008 (2104) Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 112, in _oneloop self._onefile(msg, msgdata) File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 170, in _onefile keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata) File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 73, in _dispose mlist.ArchiveMail(msg) File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 200, in ArchiveMail self.__archive_to_mbox(msg) File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 169, in __archive_to_mbox mbox = self.__archive_file(afn) File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 157, in __archive_file return Mailbox.Mailbox(open(afn, 'a+')) IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox' The "check_perms" command reports no problems. What should the owner be for the archive directories and files? What should the permissions be? Do you think these issues are related? Thanks, Jim ----- Original Message ---- From: Mark Sapiro To: santaclarajim at yahoo.com; mailman-users at python.org Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 12:52:41 PM Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate Subscription Confirmations Jim wrote: > >I have confirmed that one user who received the duplicate confirmation did, indeed, have a "subscribe" in the subject and the body. > >Is there a way to protect against that behavior by the -request process? I would expect that process to detect that the requests were within the same email message and send only one response. Is there a reason it doesn't behave in that manner today? It could be done, but it is tricky. As it is, CommandRunner just processes the subject and up to DEFAULT_MAIL_COMMANDS_MAX_LINES (default 25) body lines one at a time until it gets a non-command or error except non-commands or errors in the subject are OK. If it gets a subscribe command for a member, it's an error, but if subscribe requires confirmation or approval, the subscribed address won't be a member when the second request is processed. Note that it is perfectly valid to have multiple subscribe commands in one message as each command can request subscription of a different address. So, in order to avoid accepting a second subscribe request for the same address, we could look at all the pending subscriptions and see if we have one for this address, but even then we can't just ignore this request as it might be intentional (say the confirmation email from the prior request was lost) so we'd have to make a decision based on how recent the prior request was. It seems like a lot of effort for something that occurs infrequently and does no real harm. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From stephen at xemacs.org Sun Dec 14 08:34:10 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 16:34:10 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Filter for exact domain names In-Reply-To: References: <87fxkr8ufk.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: <87d4fv8b2l.fsf@xemacs.org> Cyndi Norwitz writes: > Wishlist: can you make the screen showing the list of addresses/code > lines bigger? In fact, one of my spam filters shows To, From, and Subject only. I almost never am in doubt as to which are spam. I bet you could get away with a one-line-per-post format with (unlabeled) Accept, Reject, Discard, Defer radio buttons, 20 characters worth of To & From, and 30 characters of subject. Add an ALT= attribute containing the entire set of addressees (ie, To & Cc) or the entire From address or the entire subject so that you could mouse-over when in doubt. Then, if there are still some you would like more detail, add a button for "full display" (ie, what we have now). From measl at mfn.org Sun Dec 14 08:39:10 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 01:39:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different IPs for each list? Message-ID: First, let me say that I'm not certain this is going to transslate the way I intend... That said: I have a machine with a half dozen lists on it, running on 1 IP. Id like to keep the same "info" page that lists all the various lists, but have each one (at smtp level, I dont care where the archives and user pages are) communicating on a different IP for traffic engineering purposes (rather than using separate instantiations on separate IPS). Is this possible? Thanks! BTW: Whatever my problem was with the disappearing disk was definitely log rotation related, but when I placed an NFS drive under the logs (so they could grow "invisible files" big enough for me to correlate), whatever it was went away. If I kill the NFS mount it returns, so I still owe you this: it's definitely odd. //Alif -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From mark at msapiro.net Sun Dec 14 17:44:14 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:44:14 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different IPs for each list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: J.A. Terranson wrote: > >First, let me say that I'm not certain this is going to transslate the way >I intend... > >That said: I have a machine with a half dozen lists on it, running on 1 >IP. Id like to keep the same "info" page that lists all the various >lists, but have each one (at smtp level, I dont care where the archives >and user pages are) communicating on a different IP for traffic >engineering purposes (rather than using separate instantiations on >separate IPS). > >Is this possible? What I'm getting is you want each list to have it's own domain and associated IP address - e.g., list1 at l1.example.com, list2 at l2.example.com, etc. You can do this in a couple of ways. If all lists share a common web host domain, just set the host_name on each list's General Options page to the desired email host (or set it with bin/config_list), and make the appropriate changes in your MTA. I gather that you don't want a separate web host domain for each list, but if you did, you would need to put things like add_virtualhost('web1.example.com', 'l1.example.com') add_virtualhost('web2.example.com', 'l2.example.com') etc. in mm_cfg.py and run bin/withlist -l -r fix_url list1 -u web1.example.com bin/withlist -l -r fix_url list2 -u web2.example.com etc. to update the list configurations, and put VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW = Off in mm_cfg.py so all the lists will appear on the listinfo and admin overview pages regardless of invoking domain, and of course make the appropriate MTA and web server changes. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Sun Dec 14 23:23:38 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 16:23:38 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different IPs for each list? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4945876A.7090605@riverviewtech.net> On 12/14/2008 01:39 AM, J.A. Terranson wrote: > That said: I have a machine with a half dozen lists on it, running on > 1 IP. Id like to keep the same "info" page that lists all the > various lists, but have each one (at smtp level, I dont care where > the archives and user pages are) communicating on a different IP for > traffic engineering purposes (rather than using separate > instantiations on separate IPS). > > Is this possible? (Note: This may very well be an "open mouth, insert foot" reply, but I'll do it any way.) It is my (mis)understanding that Mailman sends email to the local MTA which then sends the emails on out to the world its self, not Mailman. (Though this may be a configuration option, hence the phrase above.) Presuming that my (mis)understanding is correct... This is more of an MTA option rather than a Mailman option. The closest that I can think of for Mailman would be to have each list use a different MTA (bound to different IPs). That way each MTA (thus lists using said MTA) would send it's messages out from its own IP. Can someone else please confirm or correct me on how Mailman is operating with regards to the MTA? What MTA are you using? If it's Sendmail I might be able to help you get it to behave like you are wanting. Grant. . . . From measl at mfn.org Mon Dec 15 00:59:24 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 17:59:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different IPs for each list? In-Reply-To: <4945876A.7090605@riverviewtech.net> References: <4945876A.7090605@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Dec 2008, Grant Taylor wrote: > Mailman would be to have each list use a different MTA (bound to different > IPs). That way each MTA (thus lists using said MTA) would send it's messages > out from its own IP. > > Can someone else please confirm or correct me on how Mailman is operating with > regards to the MTA? > > What MTA are you using? If it's Sendmail I might be able to help you get it > to behave like you are wanting. Im using postfix, and getting it to op on separate IPs is trivial. My problem is that Mailman has a single IP to reach for all of the lists. How would separate mailman runs interact? I dont believe they will. If they will I dont (cant imagine) HOW to get them to operate seamlessly like this. To put this a different way: on IP ...1 you have lists.xyz.com At that url you see that there are lists a-f on that server. this is all running in whaever IP that original URL was on (...1 in this case). If I subscribe to list f (using the web interface on .1) I want list F to go out on IP ...6 This seems tricky if not impossible to me. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From measl at mfn.org Mon Dec 15 01:04:10 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:04:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different IPs for each list? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Dec 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote: > J.A. Terranson wrote: > > > >First, let me say that I'm not certain this is going to transslate the way > >I intend... > > > >That said: I have a machine with a half dozen lists on it, running on 1 > >IP. Id like to keep the same "info" page that lists all the various > >lists, but have each one (at smtp level, I dont care where the archives > >and user pages are) communicating on a different IP for traffic > >engineering purposes (rather than using separate instantiations on > >separate IPS). > > > >Is this possible? > > > What I'm getting is you want each list to have it's own domain and > associated IP address - e.g., list1 at l1.example.com, > list2 at l2.example.com, etc. No. Let me try again. Right now I have every list at lists.blah.org I want to keep that. But when traffic goes to or from a particular list, i want it routed over s separate IP address so that I can shove them down separate PVCs. I want to keep the one address web interface for all lists and archives. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 15 01:25:46 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 16:25:46 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different IPs for each list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: J.A. Terranson wrote: > >Let me try again. > >Right now I have every list at lists.blah.org > >I want to keep that. But when traffic goes to or from a particular list, >i want it routed over s separate IP address so that I can shove them down >separate PVCs. > >I want to keep the one address web interface for all lists and archives. I'm still not sure I understand, but if I do, there's nothing in Mailman to either support or inhibit this. If I mail to listx at lists.blah.org, my MTA is going to look up the MX for lists.blah.org and make it's SMTP connection to that IP. If you're saying you want a different route from that MX to the Mailman host depending on list name, that would be something the MTA in the MX would have to do. Ultimately, the mail would arrive at the Mailman host and an MTA there would pipe it to the mail wrapper and Mailman would process it. Outbound, Mailman delivers all mail to one MTA which is usually listining on localhost:25 but can be anywhere. If you want mail from different lists to go out from different IPs, it would be up to that MTA to send it differently depending on the envelope sender of the message. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Mon Dec 15 01:20:42 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:20:42 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different IPs for each list? In-Reply-To: References: <4945876A.7090605@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: <4945A2DA.8070905@riverviewtech.net> On 12/14/2008 05:59 PM, J.A. Terranson wrote: > Im using postfix, and getting it to op on separate IPs is trivial. > My problem is that Mailman has a single IP to reach for all of the > lists. How would separate mailman runs interact? I dont believe they > will. If they will I dont (cant imagine) HOW to get them to operate > seamlessly like this. *nod* (Seeing as how I got away with it before I'll try it again.) I think you are smashing two different aspects of a Mailman installation together and trying to treat them as one. Namely the web interface (hosted by a web server) and the mail interface (hosed by Postfix for you). In my opinion these are two discreet and separate things that can be dealt with as such. (Seeing as how I run Sendmail, not Postfix, I don't know.) Is it possible to configure Postfix to send any mail from a particular address / domain out via a specific interface? I.e. male *@list1.domain.tld go out via IP 1 and *@list2.domain.tld go out via IP 2, etc. Presuming that it is possible to get Postfix to route mail based on sending address / domain, simply configure Mailman to smart host everything out via Postfix and let Postfix decide how to handle the messages. Thus Postfix will route email and Mailman will manage the mailing lists. As far as your web server (I'm going to use Apache for discussion), simply have Apache listen one all the IPs that are in use by the mailing lists. Doing this will simply let you decide what you want Apache to do with web requests. You can have separate web sites for each list if you want, or you can do as you were saying and have the web site that Mailman is running under available from all IPs. > To put this a different way: on IP ...1 you have lists.xyz.com At > that url you see that there are lists a-f on that server. this is > all running in whaever IP that original URL was on (...1 in this > case). If I subscribe to list f (using the web interface on .1) I > want list F to go out on IP ...6 This seems tricky if not impossible > to me. I don't think that it is impossible. You just need to brake things up in to their individual components and let them be handled by what ever does them best. I.e. Postfix for email and Apache for web. Grant. . . . From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 15 01:31:41 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 16:31:41 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different IPs for each list? In-Reply-To: <4945876A.7090605@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: Grant Taylor wrote: > >Can someone else please confirm or correct me on how Mailman is >operating with regards to the MTA? Mailman delivers all mail via SMTP to some MTA whose name/address and port can be set in mm_cfg.py via SMTPHOST and SMTPPORT which default to 'localhost' and 25 respectively. (Actually, SMTPPORT defaults to 0, but this is just a signal to the underlying Python smtplib to use the default SMTP port, i.e. 25). -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Mon Dec 15 01:25:37 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:25:37 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different IPs for each list? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4945A401.6010605@riverviewtech.net> On 12/14/2008 06:25 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > I'm still not sure I understand, but if I do, there's nothing in > Mailman to either support or inhibit this. I agree (from my limited understanding of Mailman's inner workings) that Mailman its self is indifferent to what the OP wants to do. This is really up to the MTA and web server. > If I mail to listx at lists.blah.org, my MTA is going to look up the MX > for lists.blah.org and make it's SMTP connection to that IP. If > you're saying you want a different route from that MX to the Mailman > host depending on list name, that would be something the MTA in the > MX would have to do. Ultimately, the mail would arrive at the Mailman > host and an MTA there would pipe it to the mail wrapper and Mailman > would process it. Agreed. I would like to add that if you created a new sub-domain that was list specific you could route inbound messages to individual IPs. I.e. @list1.domain.tld would be routed to one IP while @list2.domain.tld would be routed to a different IP. This is possible because each sub-domain (list1., list2., ... list6.) would have their own MX records that resolve to host names that resolve to the appropriate IP for the mailing list. > Outbound, Mailman delivers all mail to one MTA which is usually > listining on localhost:25 but can be anywhere. If you want mail from > different lists to go out from different IPs, it would be up to that > MTA to send it differently depending on the envelope sender of the > message. Agreed. See my previous post for more details. Grant. . . . From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Mon Dec 15 01:28:01 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:28:01 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different IPs for each list? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4945A491.7040306@riverviewtech.net> On 12/14/2008 06:31 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > Mailman delivers all mail via SMTP to some MTA whose name/address and > port can be set in mm_cfg.py via SMTPHOST and SMTPPORT which default > to 'localhost' and 25 respectively. (Actually, SMTPPORT defaults to > 0, but this is just a signal to the underlying Python smtplib to use > the default SMTP port, i.e. 25). This is what I have come to understand and base discussions on. Thank you for confirmation of this fact. :) Grant. . . . From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 15 01:49:46 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 16:49:46 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different IPs for each list? In-Reply-To: <4945A401.6010605@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: Grant Taylor wrote: > >I would like to add that if you created a new sub-domain that was list >specific you could route inbound messages to individual IPs. I.e. >@list1.domain.tld would be routed to one IP while >@list2.domain.tld would be routed to a different IP. This is >possible because each sub-domain (list1., list2., ... list6.) would have >their own MX records that resolve to host names that resolve to the >appropriate IP for the mailing list. That was my original thought as to what was wanted, but the OP said No. See his post at . -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Mon Dec 15 01:46:10 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:46:10 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different IPs for each list? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4945A8D2.10209@riverviewtech.net> On 12/14/2008 06:49 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > That was my original thought as to what was wanted, but the OP said No. > See his post at > . I know this is not what the OP wanted. I was simply adding it as an alternative. Grant. . . . From measl at mfn.org Mon Dec 15 03:23:20 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:23:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different IPs for each list? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Dec 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote: > J.A. Terranson wrote: > > > >Let me try again. > > > >Right now I have every list at lists.blah.org > > > >I want to keep that. But when traffic goes to or from a particular list, > >i want it routed over s separate IP address so that I can shove them down > >separate PVCs. > > > >I want to keep the one address web interface for all lists and archives. > > > I'm still not sure I understand, but if I do, there's nothing in > Mailman to either support or inhibit this. > > If I mail to listx at lists.blah.org, my MTA is going to look up the MX > for lists.blah.org and make it's SMTP connection to that IP. If you're > saying you want a different route from that MX to the Mailman host > depending on list name, that would be something the MTA in the MX > would have to do. Ultimately, the mail would arrive at the Mailman > host and an MTA there would pipe it to the mail wrapper and Mailman > would process it. > > Outbound, Mailman delivers all mail to one MTA which is usually > listining on localhost:25 but can be anywhere. If you want mail from > different lists to go out from different IPs, it would be up to that > MTA to send it differently depending on the envelope sender of the > message. So, if I understand this correctly, mailman is completely unaware of it's own IP, even though it is aware of it's domain names? I need listA to distribute on 1.2.3.4 and listB to distribute on 1.2.3.5. The reverse isnt really an issue, as once the mail gets to the MTA, it's effectively at mailman, but I'm trying to wrap my head around a solution for breaking up the outgoing mail onto separate IPs. if I recall, mailman IS very much aware of its domain and addresses. isnt this going to cause issues with rewriting virtualized envelopes? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 15 04:49:30 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:49:30 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different IPs for each list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: J.A. Terranson wrote: > >So, if I understand this correctly, mailman is completely unaware of it's >own IP, even though it is aware of it's domain names? That is correct. Mailman knows nothing about it's IP. It does know something about domains *if* it's properly configured, but all it really knows is host names to put in URLs and email addresses. >I need listA to distribute on 1.2.3.4 and listB to distribute on 1.2.3.5. Then you will have to tell the outgoing MTA that mail with an envelope from listA-bounces.* is to be sent out via the adaptor/whatever whose IP is 1.2.3.4 and mail with envelope from listB-bounces.* is to be sent out via the adaptor/whatever whose IP is 1.2.3.5. If you can do that, then you've done it. If you can't, Mailman can't help you unless you're willing to modify Mailman so, for example, it connects to a different SMTP host and/or port for each list. >The reverse isnt really an issue, as once the mail gets to the MTA, it's >effectively at mailman, but I'm trying to wrap my head around a solution >for breaking up the outgoing mail onto separate IPs. if I recall, mailman >IS very much aware of its domain and addresses. isnt this going to cause >issues with rewriting virtualized envelopes? If your solution causes the envelope sender to be rewritten from say listA-bounces at lists.example.com to listA-bounces at someother.example.com, even this would not be a problem as long as listA-bounces at someother.example.com comes back to Mailman. If it doesn't, then automated bounce processing won't work. Mailman doesn't care about domains for mail. It relies on the incoming MTA to properly pipe incoming mail to the mail wrapper. As long as that happens, the domain it was addressed to doesn't matter. The only place domains mean anything is in the web interface, and even then, only if VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW is On. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From brad at shub-internet.org Mon Dec 15 05:06:50 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:06:50 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Different IPs for each list? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4945D7DA.3090509@shub-internet.org> on 12/14/08 8:23 PM, J.A. Terranson said: > So, if I understand this correctly, mailman is completely unaware of it's > own IP, even though it is aware of it's domain names? Correct. And it's only aware of those domain names that you specifically configure. As far as the web side of the house is concerned, all the IP-level stuff is done by your web server, usually something like apache. On the mail side of the house, all the IP-level stuff is done by your mail server, usually something like sendmail, postfix, Exim, etc.... At no time does Mailman know a single thing about any of the IP addresses it is using. If you need to do something with Mailman that is specific to a given IP address, you need to do that on the appropriate server that performs that function. In this case, you need to make those changes in postfix. But how you make those changes is beyond the scope of this mailing list. In your case, I suggest you try the postfix-users mailing list, their FAQs and documentation, etc.... > I need listA to distribute on 1.2.3.4 and listB to distribute on 1.2.3.5. > The reverse isnt really an issue, as once the mail gets to the MTA, it's > effectively at mailman, but I'm trying to wrap my head around a solution > for breaking up the outgoing mail onto separate IPs. if I recall, mailman > IS very much aware of its domain and addresses. isnt this going to cause > issues with rewriting virtualized envelopes? What IP address you use to send out mail has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the IP addresses or domain names that would be used for *receiving* any bounces or other traffic coming inbound. This part is very much like a real post office. You can drop off outgoing mail in any public mailbox or post office you want, and that doesn't have any effect on mail that comes addressed to your house. -- Brad Knowles LinkedIn Profile: From bazmail at bazmac.co.uk Sun Dec 14 17:27:00 2008 From: bazmail at bazmac.co.uk (Michael Curtis) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 16:27:00 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender Rejected Emails Message-ID: Hi, I have an announce only mailing list setup up on Leopard Server 10.5.5. It works fine except I want to send moderated users an email to say they can't send to this list. In the sender filters I have all new users are moderated set to yes. Moderated posts are set to reject and I have some reject text in the box. That email is never sent back to the user. If I change the reject to hold, I do get the email sent to the moderator asking for the email to be released. Also, if I send an email as a non member, I do get the email I setup saying you are not a member and explaining how to join. What have I missed? Best wishes Michael From blaine at portalparts.com Mon Dec 15 00:44:33 2008 From: blaine at portalparts.com (Blaine Lang) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:44:33 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Remove from list quick link Message-ID: I was reading that v2.11 has the ability to support a quick link that could be included in the list footer. I want to add a link to the list footer so that list members upon receiving a list submission can always remove themselves from the list easily by using the 'remove from list' link in the message footer. I can edit the footer but what is the format to create such a link in the message footer? Thanks! From hansen at rc.org Mon Dec 15 23:21:08 2008 From: hansen at rc.org (Allan Hansen) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:21:08 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] A lot of unsubscribes Message-ID: Hi all, I recently updated my server from Mac OS X 10.4 to 10.5, with the attendant upgrade of Mailman. Following that, the server suddenly unsubscribed some 300 subscribers from various lists. Is that to be expected or should I resubscribe them? Thanks, Allan -- Allan Hansen P.O Box 2423 Cypress, CA 90630 U.S.A. hansen at rc.org +1-714-875-8870 From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 15 23:52:40 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:52:40 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender Rejected Emails In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael Curtis wrote: > >I have an announce only mailing list setup up on Leopard Server >10.5.5. It works fine except I want to send moderated users an email >to say they can't send to this list. In the sender filters I have all >new users are moderated set to yes. Moderated posts are set to reject >and I have some reject text in the box. That email is never sent back >to the user. > >If I change the reject to hold, I do get the email sent to the >moderator asking for the email to be released. Also, if I send an >email as a non member, I do get the email I setup saying you are not a >member and explaining how to join. It should work. It uses the identical process as the non-member reject; only the message text is different. What Mailman version is this, and is it Apple's package or installed from source? Is there a "discarded" entry in Mailman's vette log? If this is Apple's Mailman, are you setting the member_moderation_action using the web admin interface or Apple's GUI? -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Tue Dec 16 00:42:03 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:42:03 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Remove from list quick link In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Blaine Lang wrote: >I was reading that v2.11 has the ability to support a quick link that >could be included in the list footer. I want to add a link to the list >footer so that list members upon receiving a list submission can always >remove themselves from the list easily by using the 'remove from list' >link in the message footer. > >I can edit the footer but what is the format to create such a link in >the message footer? Actually Mailman prior to 2.1.11 has this ability too. The following requirements apply regardless of version: 1) The list must be personalized 2) It doesn't work for digests because digests aren't personalized 3) If you want true, one-click unsubscribe, you have to expose the user's list password in plain text in every message to the user. For true one-click unsubscribe, put the following in msg_footer along with whatever else you want there: Remove me from this list: %(user_optionsurl)s?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1&password=%(user_password)s If you don't want to include the password, you could use %(user_optionsurl)s?login-unsub=1 to generate the URL, but this URL takes you to the member options login page with the note at the top "The confirmation email has been sent." and the user isn't actually unsubscribed until the request is confirmed. Again, for these to work, 'personalize' must be set to 'Yes' or 'Full Personalization' on the Non-digest options page. If that setting isn't on the page, the server admin needs to put OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION = Yes in mm_cfg.py to enable it. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Tue Dec 16 00:56:13 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:56:13 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] A lot of unsubscribes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Allan Hansen wrote: > >I recently updated my server from Mac OS X 10.4 to 10.5, with the attendant upgrade >of Mailman. > >Following that, the server suddenly unsubscribed some 300 subscribers from various >lists. Is that to be expected or should I resubscribe them? It's not "expected", but in order to know whether to resubscribe them, you need to know why they were unsubscribed. Here are some possibilities. Presumably the actual unsubscribes were of bouncing members by cron/disabled. Possibly cron/disabled was not being run before and the server/Mailman upgrade installed a new crontab for Mailman. Prior to Mailman 2.1.10, if bounce_score_threshold for a list was reduced, members with stale bounce info with scores >= the new threshold would be disabled and/or unsubscribed. This wouldn't explain your situation unless you happened to reduce some bounce_score_threshold settings. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From hansen at rc.org Tue Dec 16 01:59:24 2008 From: hansen at rc.org (Allan Hansen) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:59:24 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] A lot of unsubscribes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Closer examination has revealed that most if not all of these unsubscriptions are valid. The 'cron' explanation appears correct, because when I upgraded, I also found that the password reminders were suddenly being sent out, which they had not before. Looking at crontab, I found the cron job to do just that. I wonder if this is something Apple bungled when they stopped using cron jobs for their own scheduled tasks. In any case, the jobs are now running again. Thank you for the hint. Allan At 3:56 PM -0800 12/15/08, Mark Sapiro wrote: >Allan Hansen wrote: >> >>I recently updated my server from Mac OS X 10.4 to 10.5, with the attendant upgrade >>of Mailman. >> >>Following that, the server suddenly unsubscribed some 300 subscribers from various >>lists. Is that to be expected or should I resubscribe them? > > >It's not "expected", but in order to know whether to resubscribe them, >you need to know why they were unsubscribed. > >Here are some possibilities. Presumably the actual unsubscribes were of >bouncing members by cron/disabled. Possibly cron/disabled was not >being run before and the server/Mailman upgrade installed a new >crontab for Mailman. > >Prior to Mailman 2.1.10, if bounce_score_threshold for a list was >reduced, members with stale bounce info with scores >= the new >threshold would be disabled and/or unsubscribed. This wouldn't explain >your situation unless you happened to reduce some >bounce_score_threshold settings. > >-- >Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, >San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan -- Allan Hansen P.O Box 2423 Cypress, CA 90630 U.S.A. hansen at rc.org +1-714-875-8870 From blaine at portalparts.com Tue Dec 16 01:24:48 2008 From: blaine at portalparts.com (Blaine Lang) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:24:48 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Remove from list quick link In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mark, Thanks for the nicely detailed answer :) Cheers! From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Wed Dec 17 00:23:52 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:23:52 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Anomalies since upgrading to 2.1.11 Message-ID: <1229469832.14245.130.camel@vishnu.fmp.com> I've run into a couple of problems mailman which I can't seem to track down through normal channels. These seem to have appeared at the same time that I upgraded to 2.1.11 from 2.1.9. The most serious problem is that list owners/moderators are no longer receiving notifications of pending subscription requests, possibly also moderation requests (I host few moderated lists). Settings haven't changed, and admin_immed_notify is set to Yes. The listname-owner at listhost address works OK, and email sent explicitly to this address is delivered properly. All list traffic appears to work normally. I have 10442 files in /var/lib/mailman/qfiles/shunt, all of them dating from early last month when I upgraded. I don't know the purpose of this directory, nor what the large number of files here indicates. Starting about the same time, the mailman error log started showing a large number of entries similar to the following, which are continuing as of this date: Nov 07 18:23:16 2008 (1813) SHUNTING: 1226103793.9225979+970f9fe7e0c4b593e7a85af061d0a3293cfbcb08 Nov 07 18:25:20 2008 (1813) Uncaught runner exception: matches_p() takes exactly 3 arguments (2 given) Nov 07 18:25:20 2008 (1813) Traceback (most recent call last): File "/var/gentoo/tmp/portage/net-mail/mailman-2.1.11/image//usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 120, in _oneloop File "/var/gentoo/tmp/portage/net-mail/mailman-2.1.11/image//usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 191, in _onefile File "/var/gentoo/tmp/portage/net-mail/mailman-2.1.11/image//usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130, in _dispose File "/var/gentoo/tmp/portage/net-mail/mailman-2.1.11/image//usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153, in _dopipeline File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamAssassin.py", line 81, in process matches_p(sender, mlist.accept_these_nonmembers): TypeError: matches_p() takes exactly 3 arguments (2 given) I don't know if these problems are related, but any advice will be appreciated. -- Lindsay Haisley | "In an open world, | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | who needs Windows | available at 512-259-1190 | or Gates" | http://pubkeys.fmp.com http://www.fmp.com | | From mark at msapiro.net Wed Dec 17 01:08:26 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:08:26 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Anomalies since upgrading to 2.1.11 In-Reply-To: <1229469832.14245.130.camel@vishnu.fmp.com> Message-ID: Lindsay Haisley wrote: >I've run into a couple of problems mailman which I can't seem to track >down through normal channels. These seem to have appeared at the same >time that I upgraded to 2.1.11 from 2.1.9. > >The most serious problem is that list owners/moderators are no longer >receiving notifications of pending subscription requests, possibly also >moderation requests (I host few moderated lists). Settings haven't >changed, and admin_immed_notify is set to Yes. The >listname-owner at listhost address works OK, and email sent explicitly to >this address is delivered properly. All list traffic appears to work >normally. Is VirginRunner running? Are you receiving any mailman generated notices? Possible, it's the errors below that are causing the notices to be 'lost'. >I have 10442 files in /var/lib/mailman/qfiles/shunt, all of them dating >from early last month when I upgraded. I don't know the purpose of this >directory, nor what the large number of files here indicates. > >Starting about the same time, the mailman error log started showing a >large number of entries similar to the following, which are continuing >as of this date: > >Nov 07 18:23:16 2008 (1813) SHUNTING: 1226103793.9225979+970f9fe7e0c4b593e7a85af061d0a3293cfbcb08 >Nov 07 18:25:20 2008 (1813) Uncaught runner exception: matches_p() takes exactly 3 arguments (2 given) >Nov 07 18:25:20 2008 (1813) Traceback (most recent call last): > File "/var/gentoo/tmp/portage/net-mail/mailman-2.1.11/image//usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 120, in _oneloop > File "/var/gentoo/tmp/portage/net-mail/mailman-2.1.11/image//usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 191, in _onefile > File "/var/gentoo/tmp/portage/net-mail/mailman-2.1.11/image//usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130, in _dispose > File "/var/gentoo/tmp/portage/net-mail/mailman-2.1.11/image//usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153, in _dopipeline > File "/usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamAssassin.py", line 81, in process > matches_p(sender, mlist.accept_these_nonmembers): >TypeError: matches_p() takes exactly 3 arguments (2 given) > >I don't know if these problems are related, but any advice will be >appreciated. The traceback above goes with the SHUNTING message that follows it, not the one that precedes it, but each one of these messages moves the current queue entry aside in qfiles/shunt/. Eg the SHUNTING message above created qfiles/shunt/1226103793.9225979+970f9fe7e0c4b593e7a85af061d0a3293cfbcb08.pck. These queue entries are moved aside so that when the underlying problem is fixed, you can run bin/unshunt to reprocess them. In the mean time, you can look at them with bin/dumpdb or bin/show_qfiles and see what they are and just remove those that are unwanted or not relevant. As far as the actual error is concerned, it occurrs in SpamAssassin.py which is an add on handler not part of GNU Mailman. The problem is that in 2.1.10, the matches_p() function grew an additional 'listname' argument. You need to fix /usr/lib64/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamAssassin.py at line 1 by changing if MEMBER_BONUS != 0: for sender in msg.get_senders(): if mlist.isMember(sender) or \ matches_p(sender, mlist.accept_these_nonmembers): score -= MEMBER_BONUS break to if MEMBER_BONUS != 0: for sender in msg.get_senders(): if mlist.isMember(sender) or \ matches_p(sender, mlist.accept_these_nonmembers, mlist.internal_name()): score -= MEMBER_BONUS break The obvious moral here is if you have 3rd party add-ons to your mailman installation, you need to check that they are compatible with an upgrade. Once you have made that change and restarted Mailman, you can run bin/unshunt to reprocess the shunted messages, but I urge you to first remove or move aside any shunt queue entries that might be for example notices of held messages that have already been dealt with. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Wed Dec 17 01:19:43 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:19:43 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Anomalies since upgrading to 2.1.11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1229473183.14245.138.camel@vishnu.fmp.com> On Tue, 2008-12-16 at 16:08 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote: > The obvious moral here is if you have 3rd party add-ons to your > mailman > installation, you need to check that they are compatible with an > upgrade. > > Once you have made that change and restarted Mailman, you can run > bin/unshunt to reprocess the shunted messages, but I urge you to first > remove or move aside any shunt queue entries that might be for example > notices of held messages that have already been dealt with. Hi Mark, You're absolutely spot-on here with regard to the cause. There's just too damn much to keep up with. I'm thankful to you and others who have the kindness and courtesy to keep the rest of us informed and on track. I had already isolated the problem (not having noticed the SpamAssassin reference in the traceback when I posted originally) and had fixed SpamAssassin.py pretty much as per your prescription, but was in the progress of testing things out before I wrote this list and declared the problem fixed. Since we have a limited number of lists here I may just nuke the shunted messages here and notify the list owners to check their pending requests. -- Lindsay Haisley | "The difference between | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | a duck is that one leg | available at 512-259-1190 | is both the same" | http://pubkeys.fmp.com http://www.fmp.com | - Anonymous | From damico.1 at osu.edu Wed Dec 17 17:33:14 2008 From: damico.1 at osu.edu (Joe Damico) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:33:14 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] welcome message Message-ID: Hello, We would like to make some slight modification to the Mailman welcome message for new subscribers at our location. Where is this message located and if it is in Python code, how do we go about changing the text? Thanks, Joe From henry at dotrose.com Wed Dec 17 19:34:59 2008 From: henry at dotrose.com (Henry Hartley) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:34:59 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] welcome message In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49494653.1030504@dotrose.com> Joe Damico wrote: > > We would like to make some slight modification to the Mailman welcome > message for new subscribers at our location. Where is this message > located and if it is in Python code, how do we go about changing the > text? If you just want to change the first paragraph of that message, it's done through the regular web interface. On the General Options page, a little more than half way down is an entry for "List-specific text prepended to new-subscriber welcome message (Details for welcome_msg). -- Henry From albertopereira at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 19:49:52 2008 From: albertopereira at gmail.com (Alberto Pereira) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:49:52 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Integration with PHP Message-ID: Hi. I'm doing a tiny interface ih PHP for the subscribers of a mailing-list and so that they, through that, can: - subscribe; - unsubscribe; - change digest; ... I'm using the urls for the actions, and all seems working but they change the moderation status of the users. My question is what is the GET variable to change the moderation bit? Thanks, Alberto From ilchuk at wrlc.org Wed Dec 17 21:48:02 2008 From: ilchuk at wrlc.org (Jeanne Ilchuk) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:48:02 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] connect to exchange server Message-ID: Was anything ever developed to allow mailman to work with a microsoft exchange server ? jeanne From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Wed Dec 17 22:07:20 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:07:20 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] connect to exchange server In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49496A08.1010800@riverviewtech.net> On 12/17/08 14:48, Jeanne Ilchuk wrote: > Was anything ever developed to allow mailman to work with a microsoft > exchange server? Mailman (like any other SMTP speaking program) should be able to work with Exchange. Well, at least Mailman should be able to send email to Exchange via SMTP. You may have to do something interesting to get Exchange to send email for a specific (Mailman) address elsewhere to be able to interface with it. You may have more luck finding something that will connect to a POP3 server (Exchange) and download messages and feed them in to Mailman. Grant. . . . From b19141 at anl.gov Wed Dec 17 22:17:55 2008 From: b19141 at anl.gov (Barry Finkel) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:17:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] connect to exchange server In-Reply-To: Mail from 'Jeanne Ilchuk ' dated: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:48:02 -0500 Message-ID: <20081217211755.D54AC17668@britaine.cis.anl.gov> Jeanne Ilchuk wrote: >Was anything ever developed to allow mailman to work with a microsoft >exchange server ? In what respect? What are you trying to accomplish? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Barry S. Finkel Computing and Information Systems Division Argonne National Laboratory Phone: +1 (630) 252-7277 9700 South Cass Avenue Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601 Building 222, Room D209 Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov Argonne, IL 60439-4828 IBMMAIL: I1004994 From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Wed Dec 17 22:25:00 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:25:00 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] connect to exchange server In-Reply-To: <49496A08.1010800@riverviewtech.net> References: <49496A08.1010800@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: <49496E2C.60004@riverviewtech.net> On 12/17/08 15:07, Taylor, Grant wrote: > Mailman (like any other SMTP speaking program) should be able to work > with Exchange. Well, at least Mailman should be able to send email to > Exchange via SMTP. You may have to do something interesting to get > Exchange to send email for a specific (Mailman) address elsewhere to be > able to interface with it. > > You may have more luck finding something that will connect to a POP3 > server (Exchange) and download messages and feed them in to Mailman. Are you running Mailman on the Exchange (or another Windows) server? If so, is it with in a Cygwin environment? Or are you running Mailman on a different unix box? Either way (Cygwin or a different unix box) look in to fetchmail as it can download mail from a POP3 server (Exchange) and pass it in to a program via it's --mta command. As such, I think you could have fetchmail get email from Exchange via POP3 and then pass it in to Mailman directly (similar to how the mm-handler script for Sendmail works). Then it would just be a matter of setting something up to call fetchmail periodically to download mail and pass it to Mailman. Grant. . . . From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk Wed Dec 17 22:32:25 2008 From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:32:25 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] connect to exchange server In-Reply-To: <49496A08.1010800@riverviewtech.net> References: <49496A08.1010800@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: <20081217213225.GS1778@amyl.org.uk> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 03:07:20PM -0600, Grant Taylor wrote: > On 12/17/08 14:48, Jeanne Ilchuk wrote: > >Was anything ever developed to allow mailman to work with a microsoft > >exchange server? Last time I looked at doing this, I ended up sub-domaining out (lists.example.org), and installing a *nix box, Exim, and Mailman for that subdom (plus appropriate DNS records). > Mailman (like any other SMTP speaking program) should be able to work > with Exchange. Well, at least Mailman should be able to send email to > Exchange via SMTP. You may have to do something interesting to get > Exchange to send email for a specific (Mailman) address elsewhere to be > able to interface with it. I think I got as far as setting up ActivePython, and building Mailman, to give up at some point, and used a "proper" OS; that in mind, though, I'm not a Python fan, and knew it would take me <1 hour to have things operational on $OTHER-BOX. > You may have more luck finding something that will connect to a POP3 > server (Exchange) and download messages and feed them in to Mailman. I'd suggest using IMAPS over POP3, ymmv. -- ``Electronic voting is one of those things like unguarded plutonium stores in Russia: people are only calm about it because they don't know about it. The rational, informed response would be to run around in circles, howling.'' (Harry Hutton, on the 2004 Venezuelan recall referendum) From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Wed Dec 17 22:37:47 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:37:47 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] connect to exchange server In-Reply-To: <20081217213225.GS1778@amyl.org.uk> References: <49496A08.1010800@riverviewtech.net> <20081217213225.GS1778@amyl.org.uk> Message-ID: <4949712B.1060801@riverviewtech.net> On 12/17/08 15:32, Adam McGreggor wrote: > Last time I looked at doing this, I ended up sub-domaining out > (lists.example.org), and installing a *nix box, Exim, and Mailman for > that subdom (plus appropriate DNS records). *nod* That is what I've done. However this may not be the most appropriate thing to do in some installs, namely installs that have port 25 port forwarded through the firewall to the Exchange box. In this case, you can't port forward 25 to a different server. Thus you are left with having Exchange relay that domain and set up internal mail routing to relay messages to the internal Mailman box. (I'm fairly confident that Exchange can be made to relay for other domains but I've never done it, nor would I want to.) Now on the other hand, the OP may find it advantageous to port forward port 25 to the Mailman box and run an MTA with better spam filtering and then have it relay the main domain back to Exchange. :) As a plus, you would not have IIS / Exchange exposed to the world via NAT port forwarding, which is ALWAYS a plus. :} > I think I got as far as setting up ActivePython, and building > Mailman, to give up at some point, and used a "proper" OS; that in > mind, though, I'm not a Python fan, and knew it would take me <1 hour > to have things operational on $OTHER-BOX. Yep. I am right there with you. Mailman is my only use for Python. > I'd suggest using IMAPS over POP3, ymmv. Possibly. Though IMAP is meant for storing messages on the server where as POP3 is meant for queuing messages, which is more in line with what would be needed here. There is also the fact that one or the other protocol would have to be installed in Exchange. Most of the systems I've seen already have POP3 installed but would need to have IMAP installed. Thus you are possibly making more changes to Exchange and potentially aggravating an Exchange admin. Grant. . . . From tmz at pobox.com Thu Dec 18 01:09:41 2008 From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:09:41 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] welcome message In-Reply-To: <49494653.1030504@dotrose.com> References: <49494653.1030504@dotrose.com> Message-ID: <20081218000941.GJ12325@inocybe.teonanacatl.org> Henry Hartley wrote: > Joe Damico wrote: >> >> We would like to make some slight modification to the Mailman >> welcome message for new subscribers at our location. Where is this >> message located and if it is in Python code, how do we go about >> changing the text? > > If you just want to change the first paragraph of that message, it's > done through the regular web interface. On the General Options page, > a little more than half way down is an entry for "List-specific > text prepended to new-subscriber welcome message (Details for > welcome_msg). And if you want to do more than just prefix text to the stock welcome message, you can do that too. The welcome message template is stored at ~mailman/templates//subscribeack.txt (where is a placeholder, e.g. ~mailman/templates/en/subscribeack.txt for English). You can customize this in several ways, depending on how much you want the changes to affect. Templates are searched in the following order: # 1. the list-specific language directory # lists// # # 2. the domain-specific language directory # templates// # # 3. the site-wide language directory # templates/site/ # # 4. the global default language directory # templates/ The first match is used. So, if you only want to adjust the welcome message for one list, use the first location above. Just copy the stock welcome message to the desired location and edit to to your liking. -- Todd OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Optimist, n.: A proponent of the doctrine that black is white. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 542 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 18 02:44:01 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:44:01 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Integration with PHP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alberto Pereira wrote: > >I'm doing a tiny interface ih PHP for the subscribers of a mailing-list and >so that they, through that, can: > >- subscribe; >- unsubscribe; >- change digest; >... > >I'm using the urls for the actions, and all seems working but they change >the moderation status of the users. > >My question is what is the GET variable to change the moderation bit? The best answer is to look at what the form on the regular web interface submits, and or look at the source to see how it's processed. If you are using the 'admin' page, you will see things like for the moderation setting for the user. The issue is that when admin.py processes the 'mod' setting, it doesn't actually check to see if the setting is present in the CGI data, it just sets the users moderation on if the box is checked and off otherwise, even if it isn't present in the CGI data. You could 'fix' Mailman/Cgi/admin.py by changing moderate = not not cgidata.getvalue(quser+'_mod') mlist.setMemberOption(user, mm_cfg.Moderate, moderate) to if cgidata.has_key(quser+'_mod'): moderate = not not cgidata.getvalue(quser+'_mod') mlist.setMemberOption(user, mm_cfg.Moderate, moderate) Otherwise, you need to get the user's moderate setting first and then set it accordingly. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 18 03:09:35 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:09:35 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Integration with PHP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark Sapiro wrote: >Alberto Pereira wrote: >>My question is what is the GET variable to change the moderation bit? > >The issue is that when admin.py processes the 'mod' setting, it doesn't >actually check to see if the setting is present in the CGI data, it >just sets the users moderation on if the box is checked and off >otherwise, even if it isn't present in the CGI data. > >You could 'fix' Mailman/Cgi/admin.py by changing > > moderate = not not cgidata.getvalue(quser+'_mod') > mlist.setMemberOption(user, mm_cfg.Moderate, moderate) > >to > > if cgidata.has_key(quser+'_mod'): > moderate = not not cgidata.getvalue(quser+'_mod') > mlist.setMemberOption(user, mm_cfg.Moderate, moderate) > >Otherwise, you need to get the user's moderate setting first and then >set it accordingly. I think the same issue exists with the user's real name. You may also want to change newname = cgidata.getvalue(quser+'_realname', '') newname = Utils.canonstr(newname, mlist.preferred_language) mlist.setMemberName(user, newname) to if cgidata.has_key(quser+'_realname'): newname = cgidata.getvalue(quser+'_realname') newname = Utils.canonstr(newname, mlist.preferred_language) mlist.setMemberName(user, newname) -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Thu Dec 18 09:55:09 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 02:55:09 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] eMailing a members only list from a known location with out verifying members. Message-ID: <494A0FED.8080709@riverviewtech.net> Is it possible to post messages to a members only list with out Mailman validating the sender when posting with a known (specific to this purpose) method? Now for the back story. I am setting up a mailing list that is using a (Usenet) news to email gateway on the news server and having it send / post to a mailing list. I had the system set to accept messages from unknown senders (any one in the world can post to the news group(s)) but messages were still being moderated because Mailman did not see the mailing list in the To: or CC: fields. Thus I had an accident where the mailing list sent moderation messages to lots of people. After wiping all the egg of my face I have given it some thought and I understand why Mailman did what it did. It's just that I want Mailman to not moderate the way that it did when I'm posting messages from the news to email gateway. Is there an option that can be passed to the mm-handler (or comparable) that will tell it to not apply the usual restrictions that probably should be on the mailing list? I am wanting the mailing list to be closed and only be able to post from subscribed members, thus I have an ability to handle abuse if / when it happens. Also, I'm not opposed to configuring the news server / news to email gateway such that it does not use email per say but rather sends messages to Mailman via command line with an option that bypasses the usual sender filtering. Grant. . . . From guilherme.funchal at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 13:50:42 2008 From: guilherme.funchal at gmail.com (Guilherme Funchal) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:50:42 -0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] bug Message-ID: Bug in Mailman version 2.1.9 We're sorry, we hit a bug! Help me... -- 'Feel the fear in my enemy's eyes' ============================== Guilherme Funchal da Silva .`. LPI Level 2 Certification From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 18 16:19:40 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 07:19:40 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] eMailing a members only list from a known locationwith out verifying members. In-Reply-To: <494A0FED.8080709@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: Grant Taylor wrote: >Is it possible to post messages to a members only list with out Mailman >validating the sender when posting with a known (specific to this >purpose) method? Yes. >Now for the back story. I am setting up a mailing list that is using a >(Usenet) news to email gateway on the news server and having it send / >post to a mailing list. I had the system set to accept messages from >unknown senders (any one in the world can post to the news group(s)) but >messages were still being moderated because Mailman did not see the >mailing list in the To: or CC: fields. Thus I had an accident where the >mailing list sent moderation messages to lots of people. If you use Mailman's news -> mail gateway to gate messages from a news group on a news server to the Mailman list. you won't have this problem. >Is there an option that can be passed to the mm-handler (or comparable) >that will tell it to not apply the usual restrictions that probably >should be on the mailing list? If the message to Mailman contains a Approved: password header where password is the list admin or list moderator password, all the normal holds and moderation checks except header_filter_rules will be bypassed. The header will be removed before the message is distributed. Note that this has nothing to do with mm-handler or other delevery to mailman method. Even with mm-handler, delivery to Mailman is still via the mail/mailman wrapper, so mm-handler has no way to manipulate the message's metadata which is initialized by the post script invoked by the wrapper. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 18 16:23:24 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 07:23:24 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] bug In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Guilherme Funchal wrote: >Bug in Mailman version 2.1.9 We're sorry, we hit a bug! >Help me... If you have access to Mailman's logs, post the complete error message and traceback from Mailman's error log. If you don't have access to Mailman's logs, ask for help from the people that administer the server that host's the list. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Thu Dec 18 16:43:05 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:43:05 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] eMailing a members only list from a known locationwith out verifying members. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <494A6F89.6050406@riverviewtech.net> On 12/18/08 09:19, Mark Sapiro wrote: > Yes. Good. > If you use Mailman's news -> mail gateway to gate messages from a > news group on a news server to the Mailman list. you won't have this > problem. I'm trying to not use Mailman's news to email gateway because of its "polling" aspect. I can have my news server "push" new messages to Mailman in a more timely and more efficiency manner. > If the message to Mailman contains a > > Approved: password > > header where password is the list admin or list moderator password, > all the normal holds and moderation checks except header_filter_rules > will be bypassed. The header will be removed before the message is > distributed. Ok... That might work. It's good to know that the header is removed and not accidentally exposed to the mailing list (for those that would look). > Note that this has nothing to do with mm-handler or other delevery to > mailman method. Even with mm-handler, delivery to Mailman is still > via the mail/mailman wrapper, so mm-handler has no way to manipulate > the message's metadata which is initialized by the post script > invoked by the wrapper. Ok. I said "mm-handler" as an idea, not specifically that script. "Mm-handler" just happened to be what I use as a mailer in Sendmail so that is what came to mind. Is there an option that can be passed to mail/mailman that does what I'm asking for? Grant. . . . From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 18 17:42:12 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:42:12 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] eMailing a members only list from aknown locationwith out verifying members. In-Reply-To: <494A6F89.6050406@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: Grant Taylor wrote: >On 12/18/08 09:19, Mark Sapiro wrote: > >> Note that this has nothing to do with mm-handler or other delevery to >> mailman method. Even with mm-handler, delivery to Mailman is still >> via the mail/mailman wrapper, so mm-handler has no way to manipulate >> the message's metadata which is initialized by the post script >> invoked by the wrapper. > >Ok. I said "mm-handler" as an idea, not specifically that script. >"Mm-handler" just happened to be what I use as a mailer in Sendmail so >that is what came to mind. > >Is there an option that can be passed to mail/mailman that does what I'm >asking for? X has no way to manipulate the message's metadata which is initialized by the post script invoked by the wrapper. What this means is that without modifying Mailman in some way, the Approved: header is the only tool available. Now, the wrapper is pretty simple. When it is invoked via /path/to/wrapper post LIST all it does is set the effective group to 'mailman' (or whatever your Mailman group is), check that 'post' is a valid command, and invoke scripts/post with the rest of the arguments (i.e. LIST and whatever follows). So, if you could arrange for mm-handler or whatever to pipe the gated message to /path/to/wrapper post LIST fromusenet you could modify scripts/post to detect this additional argument and add fromusenet=1 to the metadata when it queues the message. Of course, this may be insecure depending on just how you arrange for the additional argument to be added since others besides the newsgroup may be able to invoke this. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Thu Dec 18 17:57:04 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:57:04 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] eMailing a members only list from aknown locationwith out verifying members. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <494A80E0.7060001@riverviewtech.net> On 12/18/08 10:42, Mark Sapiro wrote: > X has no way to manipulate the message's metadata which is > initialized by the post script invoked by the wrapper. Ok. > What this means is that without modifying Mailman in some way, the > Approved: header is the only tool available. *nod* > Now, the wrapper is pretty simple. When it is invoked via > > /path/to/wrapper post LIST > > all it does is set the effective group to 'mailman' (or whatever your > Mailman group is), check that 'post' is a valid command, and invoke > scripts/post with the rest of the arguments (i.e. LIST and whatever > follows). ... > So, if you could arrange for mm-handler or whatever to pipe the gated > message to > > /path/to/wrapper post LIST fromusenet That can be done. > you could modify scripts/post to detect this additional argument and > add fromusenet=1 to the metadata when it queues the message. Ok... That is assuming I can hack enough Python to pull this off. But in theory it sounds good. :) And I like it. > Of course, this may be insecure depending on just how you arrange for > the additional argument to be added since others besides the > newsgroup may be able to invoke this. I acknowledge this potential spam exploit and I'm willing to accept the ramifications. Seeing as how this is a closed system with only a few admins having access, I'm not all that worried. Grant. . . . From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 18 18:08:16 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:08:16 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Weekly digests - was: Integration with PHP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alberto Pereira wrote: > >I'm trying to find a way to send weekly digests to specific users. I could >write a bunch of code to store the specified users, check the dates on >emails and send them once a week with a cron job, but is there a easier way >to do that? If you wanted to send digests weekly to ALL digest members of ALL lists with periodic digests, all you'd need to do is set the list's Digest options -> digest_size_threshhold to a large value and change Mailman's crontab to run cron/send-digests weekly. Otherwise, you're stuck with implementing your own digest process. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From albertopereira at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 16:51:27 2008 From: albertopereira at gmail.com (Alberto Pereira) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:51:27 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Integration with PHP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks. Ended up by adding "_mod=on" as a GET variable and it worked. Another problem: I'm trying to find a way to send weekly digests to specific users. I could write a bunch of code to store the specified users, check the dates on emails and send them once a week with a cron job, but is there a easier way to do that? thanks again, Alberto On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 2:09 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > Mark Sapiro wrote: > > >Alberto Pereira wrote: > >>My question is what is the GET variable to change the moderation bit? > > > >The issue is that when admin.py processes the 'mod' setting, it doesn't > >actually check to see if the setting is present in the CGI data, it > >just sets the users moderation on if the box is checked and off > >otherwise, even if it isn't present in the CGI data. > > > >You could 'fix' Mailman/Cgi/admin.py by changing > > > > moderate = not not cgidata.getvalue(quser+'_mod') > > mlist.setMemberOption(user, mm_cfg.Moderate, moderate) > > > >to > > > > if cgidata.has_key(quser+'_mod'): > > moderate = not not cgidata.getvalue(quser+'_mod') > > mlist.setMemberOption(user, mm_cfg.Moderate, moderate) > > > >Otherwise, you need to get the user's moderate setting first and then > >set it accordingly. > > > I think the same issue exists with the user's real name. You may also > want to change > > newname = cgidata.getvalue(quser+'_realname', '') > newname = Utils.canonstr(newname, mlist.preferred_language) > mlist.setMemberName(user, newname) > > to > > if cgidata.has_key(quser+'_realname'): > newname = cgidata.getvalue(quser+'_realname') > newname = Utils.canonstr(newname, > mlist.preferred_language) > mlist.setMemberName(user, newname) > > -- > Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, > San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan > > From ilchuk at wrlc.org Thu Dec 18 13:51:15 2008 From: ilchuk at wrlc.org (Jeanne Ilchuk) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 07:51:15 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] connect to exchange server In-Reply-To: <4949712B.1060801@riverviewtech.net> References: <49496A08.1010800@riverviewtech.net> <20081217213225.GS1778@amyl.org.uk>, <4949712B.1060801@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: I was looking thru the archives and found this note from 2004 (below) which gave me the impression that it did not work with exchange. That being said, here are more of my details. I'm installing on a Solaris sparc (v10), which has a functioning Sendmail on it. I just found "Integrating Mailman with Sendmail" in the mailman docs, so I'm working with that. I ran the Makefile with these parms- $ ./configure --with-mail-gid=25 --with-cgi-gid=nobody --with-python=/usr/bin/ python --with-mailhost=mail --with-urlhost=mailman Do I need to run again with cgi-gid=mailnull ? or can I just chgrp? --with-mailhost=mail is the hostname our exchange server On the mailman server, I changed the mailhost to the hostname of the sun server where I installed mailman, then set up the apache server with a dedicated IP and dns entry mailman. I'm kind of struggling here because I've been using ecartis MLM on an old FreeBSD server that IT is eliminating. At the same time we moved our mail from the freebsd server (postfix) to MS Exchange. I don't have a clue how the exchange server works. I'm accessing my own email using the WOA Light version, which would have to be imap with SMTP [I thought]. Is exchange a pop3 server ? Thanks for all the speedy replies. I'll be back! -- Back to the drawing board -- suggestions welcome. jeanne At 3:22 AM -0400 2004-07-23, Luke Matthews wrote: > I couldn't seem to find anything on the site, but is it possible to > install Mailman on a Linux box running RedHat 9 and use a MS Exchange > Server for the mail server? I don't think that would work. But if you're installing a Linux box anyway, why not also install an MTA on it (sendmail, postfix, exim, whatever)? At that point, it doesn't really matter what mail server the recipients use. ________________________________________ From: mailman-users-bounces+ilchuk=wrlc.org at python.org On Behalf Of Grant Taylor [gtaylor at riverviewtech.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 16:37 To: Mail List - Mailman Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] connect to exchange server On 12/17/08 15:32, Adam McGreggor wrote: > Last time I looked at doing this, I ended up sub-domaining out > (lists.example.org), and installing a *nix box, Exim, and Mailman for > that subdom (plus appropriate DNS records). *nod* That is what I've done. However this may not be the most appropriate thing to do in some installs, namely installs that have port 25 port forwarded through the firewall to the Exchange box. In this case, you can't port forward 25 to a different server. Thus you are left with having Exchange relay that domain and set up internal mail routing to relay messages to the internal Mailman box. (I'm fairly confident that Exchange can be made to relay for other domains but I've never done it, nor would I want to.) Now on the other hand, the OP may find it advantageous to port forward port 25 to the Mailman box and run an MTA with better spam filtering and then have it relay the main domain back to Exchange. :) As a plus, you would not have IIS / Exchange exposed to the world via NAT port forwarding, which is ALWAYS a plus. :} > I think I got as far as setting up ActivePython, and building > Mailman, to give up at some point, and used a "proper" OS; that in > mind, though, I'm not a Python fan, and knew it would take me <1 hour > to have things operational on $OTHER-BOX. Yep. I am right there with you. Mailman is my only use for Python. > I'd suggest using IMAPS over POP3, ymmv. Possibly. Though IMAP is meant for storing messages on the server where as POP3 is meant for queuing messages, which is more in line with what would be needed here. There is also the fact that one or the other protocol would have to be installed in Exchange. Most of the systems I've seen already have POP3 installed but would need to have IMAP installed. Thus you are possibly making more changes to Exchange and potentially aggravating an Exchange admin. Grant. . . . ------------------------------------------------------ Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/ilchuk%40wrlc.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 From jtriende at wisc.edu Thu Dec 18 16:08:36 2008 From: jtriende at wisc.edu (James Riendeau) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:08:36 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security consequences of adding www user to mailman group Message-ID: <0A213DEE-1DDE-4F04-88DF-99AB434217BB@wisc.edu> I need to run bin/add_member in our Mailman 2.1.11 list server installation from a cgi/perl script. Normally, it has to run as root. The easy solution was to add the www user to the mailman group. You can then: open(LISTSERVER, '|/usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members -r- '.$list_name); print LISTSERVER $email; close(LISTSERVER); My question is are there any security consequences from adding the Apache2 user to the mailman group I should be aware of. I don't want to inadvertently allow spammers to add themselves to our lists. The cgi script that I'm using is well protected by pubcookie and ip restriction to ensure that only authorized administrators can add new addresses. Thanks, James Riendeau MMI Computer Support Technician Rm. 1541, Dept. of MedMicro 1550 Linden Drive Madison, WI 53706-1521 Phone: (608) 262-3351 After-hours Phone: (608) 260-2696 Fax: (608) 262-8418 Email: jtriende at wisc.edu From marvin at rectangular.com Fri Dec 19 01:15:18 2008 From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:15:18 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner Message-ID: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> Greets, I run a couple software support mailing lists on a site that's been around for a decade or so. I'm the only admin, and an avalanche of spam crashes down on me every day. Only subscribers are allowed to post and non-subscriber post attempts are silently discarded, which allows me to avoid the burden of moderating spam addressed to the list. But it's not enough, because I get tons of spam going to the list-owner addresses. Ideally, I'd like to simply turn off the list-owner addresses and get internal notifications (such as oversize moderation messages) sent to a private address. However, I understand that it is not possible to configure Mailman that way. Therefore, I would like to know the easiest way to accomplish these two goals: 1) Eliminate any public reference to the list-owner address, so that there is no implied offer of support. There's the MM-Mailman-Footer for the three public html pages, which I can hand-edit. I think that does it, right? 2) Create a filter for messages sent to list-owner that only passes mail generated by Mailman itself. In a perfect world, I would offer a higher level of support, but my users are sophisticated enough to handle a certain amount of troubleshooting, and my contact information isn't hard for humans to discover. Indeed, those very users would *want* me to lighten my administrative burden so that I can spend more time adding features and fixing bugs. Best, Marvin Humphrey From worldoff9908 at mail.com Fri Dec 19 00:35:58 2008 From: worldoff9908 at mail.com (NFN Smith) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:35:58 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange address handling Message-ID: <20081218233558.A065B32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> I run an installation of Mailman 2.1.9 installed from the Debian stable branch, and includes Sendmail 8.13.8, and have discovered some quirky handling of user addresses. On occasion, I've had users complain about sending multiple subscription request to a list's -join address, and never getting any response. This happened last week, and with a little checking of logs, I found that what happened is that for some reason, some outbound messages addressed to individual users are getting "-owner" tagged to the username portion of the address. Of course, because the address is invalid, the message bounces. Thus, if I'm hosting a list whose posting address is thislist at example.com, and a user whose email address is demouser at somewhere.com, the result of sending a subscription to thislist-join at example.com generated a reply message that was addressed not to demouser at somewhere.com but demouser-owner at somewhere.com. This seems to be an intermittent problem. When this particular problem happened, the user submitted subscriptions to nearly a dozen lists, only this one list had a problem -- all the other subscriptions were handled correctly. Also, as far as I can tell, this problem seems to be not specific to subscription responses, nor to this list. A check of my logs indicates a handful of other mis-addressed -owner addresses for regular message traffic. Additionally, a few minutes ago. I was looking at the web interface for my own subscription options to thislist, and found in the the section for requesting a password reminder, the following text: (Note - you are subscribing to a list of mailing lists, so the password notice will be sent to the admin address for your membership, myaddress-owner at example.com) I've never seen that one before. I do happen to be the owner of this list. I clicked the button, and the logs indicate that the message was sent to the specified address, and because it's invalid, the message bounced. I also checked subscriptions of several other lists that I own, and none of them shows that note in the subscription options. Any idea of what's going on? NFN Smith -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From brad at shub-internet.org Fri Dec 19 09:03:55 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 02:03:55 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> Message-ID: <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> on 12/18/08 6:15 PM, Marvin Humphrey said: > I run a couple software support mailing lists on a site that's been around for > a decade or so. I'm the only admin, and an avalanche of spam crashes down on > me every day. Welcome to the club. > Ideally, I'd like to simply turn off the list-owner addresses and get internal > notifications (such as oversize moderation messages) sent to a private > address. However, I understand that it is not possible to configure Mailman > that way. One thing to keep in mind is that you're also looking at long-standing Internet tradition here. RFC 2142 only says that you MUST have a list-request address for each list, but having a list-owner address goes back about as far. And this list-owner address is not just for the convenience of you and your users, it's also for other admins at other sites who may have reason to try to contact you. So, you run the risk that you may wind up with some very ticked off postmasters out there at other sites, if you eliminate this address. And I say this as the co-author of the booklet "Internet Postmaster: Duties and Responsibilities". > Therefore, I would like to know the easiest way to accomplish these two goals: > > 1) Eliminate any public reference to the list-owner address, so that there is > no implied offer of support. There's the MM-Mailman-Footer for the three > public html pages, which I can hand-edit. I think that does it, right? That doesn't really solve the problem. Anyone, anywhere can easily guess list-owner and list-request and list-bounces, etc... for any given list address. > 2) Create a filter for messages sent to list-owner that only passes mail > generated by Mailman itself. Mailman will never generate mail to the list-owner address. It will receive mail that is addressed to list-owner and will re-route that internally as appropriate, but it will never itself send e-mail to the actual list-owner address. That would be like you using your right hand to shake your own left hand. > In a perfect world, I would offer a higher level of support, but my users are > sophisticated enough to handle a certain amount of troubleshooting, and my > contact information isn't hard for humans to discover. Indeed, those very > users would *want* me to lighten my administrative burden so that I can spend > more time adding features and fixing bugs. Generally speaking, one of the best things you can do to lighten your burden is to have a good anti-spam system incorporated into your MTA, so that you block that ~95% of e-mail that is actually spam from ever being accepted by your machine in the first place. If it's never accepted by the MTA, then it can't get through to Mailman, and then passed on to you. From there, you need good content filters on your own personal e-mail system, so even if spam gets through the MTA on the server and through Mailman to list-owner, there's a good chance it will get caught by the downstream filters protecting your personal e-mail and you won't have to see or deal with it. Speaking as one of the members of the python.org postmaster team, and as the primary active listowner for all the official mailman-* mailing lists hosted on python.org, I can tell you that another really useful thing is to bring in more people to help you do your work. In your case, you might want to have more than one person helping with the list moderator work, and take most of that burden off your shoulders for having to deal with spam. That would leave you with just the listowner work, although as listowner you could always choose to take on some of the list moderator work, if you want. I also help with postmaster and listmaster duties on another site, which is much smaller than python.org. But I wind up doing way, way more work over there, simply because I'm really the only guy doing any of it. We've got a new guy we're bringing onboard, and I'm hoping he can help offload some of this work in addition to the other stuff we're asking him to do. But in the meanwhile, I'm really the only guy dealing with the deluge on a daily basis. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From attila at kinali.ch Fri Dec 19 09:43:33 2008 From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 09:43:33 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <20081219094333.f0ca82c9.attila@kinali.ch> Moin, On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 02:03:55 -0600 Brad Knowles wrote: > Generally speaking, one of the best things you can do to lighten your > burden is to have a good anti-spam system incorporated into your MTA, so > that you block that ~95% of e-mail that is actually spam from ever being > accepted by your machine in the first place. If it's never accepted by > the MTA, then it can't get through to Mailman, and then passed on to you. IMHO mailman should allow to filter all mailman related adresses seperately, w/o requiring any changes in the MTA settings. This is because, if you have normal users on a certain domain, who do not want the MTA messing with their mail, no matter whether it's spam or not, you cannot filter the mails at that level anymore. Currently, i only know about a straight forward way to filter mailinglist mails, but none for the -owner, -bounces, etc adresses. > Speaking as one of the members of the python.org postmaster team, and as > the primary active listowner for all the official mailman-* mailing > lists hosted on python.org, I can tell you that another really useful > thing is to bring in more people to help you do your work. This is not always possible and IMHO also not desirable. Things that can be automated should be automated as much as possible. And spam handling should be pretty easy to automate up to a certain degree. Speaking as the postmaster of mplayerhq.hu and being the ex-listowner of all mailinglists on that domain, i can tell you, that having enough people helping with administrative tasks can become a problem if the domain you're dealing with has a few high subscriber count, high traffic mailinglists. Actually, i must say that mailman doesn't scale very well with the size of the mailinglist in terms of administrative burden. The time needed for administrative tasks increases overproportionally with the number of subscribers. While it took me maybe half an hour to an hour per month to handle all mailinglist on mplayerhq.hu in 2002 (which i did alone), it took me several hours per week to handle everything in 2005, although the burden was splitt to three people. In the end, it took so much time, that i had to give up on being listowner completely, to be able to do anything else beside it. Attila Kinali -- If you want to walk fast, walk alone. If you want to walk far, walk together. -- African proverb From stephen at xemacs.org Fri Dec 19 10:32:45 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:32:45 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange address handling In-Reply-To: <20081218233558.A065B32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20081218233558.A065B32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <87fxkkzf0i.fsf@xemacs.org> NFN Smith writes: > (Note - you are subscribing to a list of mailing lists, so the > password notice will be sent to the admin address for your > membership, myaddress-owner at example.com) This is a feature oriented to "umbrella lists". For example, suppose you have two departments, "Support" and "Marketing". Some messages need to go to Support, some to Marketing, and some to both. The obvious thing to do is to create a third list "SupportAndMarketing". But this is administratively annoying because users need to deal with two lists to get all their mail, and two sets of archives as well. An umbrella list handles this by having SupportAndMarketing be subscribed to not by members, but by the Support list and the Marketing list. Shut off SupportAndMarketing archiving, and now (1) human users only need to worry about their departmental list and (2) all posts relevant to each group are archived in a single place (of course there will be duplication of archived posts in this case, but diskspace is cheap...). There remains one problem: passwords and other administrivia for the members of the umbrella list. If you treat them as ordinary list members, then all such administrivia will get broadcast to all the list members of the Support and Marketing lists! If you mark it as an "umbrella list", however, administrivia will get sent, not to the members of the Support and Marketing lists, but to support-owner and marketing-owner, which is what you observe here. Why this particular list is marked as an umbrella list, I can't guess. Presumably you (the owner) did that, perhaps inadvertantly. What you can do: (1) turn off the umbrella list feature, with the possible bad effect of sublist-members getting useless administrivia, or (2) "hide" the umbrella list from ordinary users in the web interface by unchecking the "advertise this list" box, unsubscribe any members who aren't sublists and resubscribe them to an appropriate sublist. From stephen at xemacs.org Fri Dec 19 10:42:26 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:42:26 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <87ej04zekd.fsf@xemacs.org> Brad Knowles writes: > > 1) Eliminate any public reference to the list-owner address > > That doesn't really solve the problem. Anyone, anywhere can easily > guess list-owner and list-request and list-bounces, etc... for any given > list address. Brad, do you think spammers really do that just to increase their address count? I've always assumed that they were just harvested in the usual way. > > In a perfect world, I would offer a higher level of support, but > > my users are sophisticated enough to handle a certain amount of > > troubleshooting, and my contact information isn't hard for humans > > to discover. It is if, for example, the problem is that somebody is using fake bounces with a spoofed from address to beam spam at somebody via your site (one aspect of the so-called backscatter problem). In that case all the recipient has is the list-owner address (and of course postmaster at your.dom, but if that isn't you personally, you probably don't want that person getting upset with you!) From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk Fri Dec 19 16:01:24 2008 From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:01:24 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> Message-ID: <20081219150123.GA1793@amyl.org.uk> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 04:15:18PM -0800, Marvin Humphrey wrote: > Greets, > > I run a couple software support mailing lists on a site that's been around for > a decade or so. I'm the only admin, and an avalanche of spam crashes down on > me every day. Are they all coming from the same address? If you're in the same boat as I was, this little hack might help -- it's certainly reduced spams going to the lists I run: #!/bin/sh /var/lib/mailman/bin/list_lists 2>&1 | grep -i "REGEXP" | awk '{print $1;}' | while read L do echo tweaking ${L} | tee -a scripted-hold-list-mail # make a config file for each list. echo dynamically creating config file for ${L}... echo "hold_these_nonmembers = ['${L}@$LIST_URI']" > hold-list-mail-python-${L} /var/lib/mailman/bin/config_list -i hold-list-mail-python-${L} ${L} | tee -a scripted-hold-list-mail rm hold-list-mail-python-${L} done (if you do use it, a credit to adam at amyl.org.uk would be lovely, for short tidbits of code, i really don't bother with licensing, although, my preference is Creative Commons UK Non-Commercial Attribution Share-Alike) You'd need to change "REGEXP", and $LIST_URI to be values appropriate to your lists (if you don't want to do it on a selection of lists, lose the 'grep -i "REGEXP"' pipe; if you don't want the logfile, too, ditch the tee(1) pipes; obv. if your Mailman locus isn't /var/lib/mailman, change that too. > Only subscribers are allowed to post and non-subscriber post attempts are > silently discarded, which allows me to avoid the burden of moderating spam > addressed to the list. But it's not enough, because I get tons of spam going > to the list-owner addresses. You could expand the echo line to include an -owner expansion. > Ideally, I'd like to simply turn off the list-owner addresses and get internal > notifications (such as oversize moderation messages) sent to a private > address. However, I understand that it is not possible to configure Mailman > that way. > > Therefore, I would like to know the easiest way to accomplish these two goals: > > 1) Eliminate any public reference to the list-owner address, so that there is > no implied offer of support. There's the MM-Mailman-Footer for the three > public html pages, which I can hand-edit. I think that does it, right? > 2) Create a filter for messages sent to list-owner that only passes mail > generated by Mailman itself. It may be frowned on, but I've wanted to over-ride Mailman's -owner on a list, and found that my Exim config will allow this (given the processing order): perhaps use a more fierce mail-filter on those addresses that you would ordinarily? From mark at msapiro.net Fri Dec 19 16:42:49 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 07:42:49 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] connect to exchange server In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jeanne Ilchuk wrote: >I was looking thru the archives and found this note from 2004 (below) which gave me the impression that it did not work with exchange. That being said, here are more of my details. >I'm installing on a Solaris sparc (v10), which has a functioning Sendmail on it. I just found "Integrating Mailman with Sendmail" in the mailman docs, so I'm working with that. I ran the Makefile with these parms- >$ ./configure --with-mail-gid=25 --with-cgi-gid=nobody --with-python=/usr/bin/ >python --with-mailhost=mail --with-urlhost=mailman Is 25 the gid under which sendmail will invoke the mail wrapper? --with-mailhost and --with-urlhost are fully qualified domain names for email and web respectively. e.g mail.example.com and mailman at example.com. >Do I need to run again with cgi-gid=mailnull ? or can I just chgrp? You need to configure with --with-cgi-gid= whatever group apache will use when invoking Mailman's CGIs and no, you can't just chgrp unless by that you mean change the group that apache uses. >--with-mailhost=mail is the hostname our exchange server and assuming you qualify it, this is the host that Mailman will use in list addresses, envelope senders, etc. If it is possible, you could avoid a lot of pain by having incoming mail to Mailman go directly to sendmail at mailman.example.com, and skip exchange all together. The only reason this wouldn't work is if your network route all external port 25 connects to the exchange server. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From brad at shub-internet.org Fri Dec 19 17:18:33 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:18:33 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <20081219094333.f0ca82c9.attila@kinali.ch> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <20081219094333.f0ca82c9.attila@kinali.ch> Message-ID: <494BC959.3070002@shub-internet.org> Attila Kinali wrote: > Moin, Is this meant in the French version of the word, or the Northern Germanic interpretation? Or is there another interpretation I should be aware of? > IMHO mailman should allow to filter all mailman related adresses > seperately, w/o requiring any changes in the MTA settings. This is > because, if you have normal users on a certain domain, who do not > want the MTA messing with their mail, no matter whether it's spam > or not, you cannot filter the mails at that level anymore. If you've got a half-way decent MTA, it should allow you to make these kinds of decisions on a per-recipient basis. There shouldn't be any system-wide settings, except for those users who do not have any personalized settings. If your MTA does not allow this kind of functionality, then you should throw it out and replace it with something that does. >> Speaking as one of the members of the python.org postmaster team, and as >> the primary active listowner for all the official mailman-* mailing >> lists hosted on python.org, I can tell you that another really useful >> thing is to bring in more people to help you do your work. > > This is not always possible and IMHO also not desirable. I will agree that it's not always possible. I strongly disagree that it is not desirable. There may be limited circumstances in which it is not desirable, but only in very limited circumstances. > Things that > can be automated should be automated as much as possible. And spam > handling should be pretty easy to automate up to a certain degree. To a certain degree, yes. Beyond that, you need to get humans involved. And when it comes to spam, you need to keep as much of that processing outside of Mailman as possible. > Speaking as the postmaster of mplayerhq.hu and being the ex-listowner > of all mailinglists on that domain, i can tell you, that having enough > people helping with administrative tasks can become a problem if the > domain you're dealing with has a few high subscriber count, high traffic > mailinglists. We don't have those kinds of problems on python.org. We've got over 150 lists, of which seven have more than a thousand subscribers, and two lists have over three thousand subscribers. I've also talked to the site admins for lists.apple.com and lists.freebsd.org, and neither of them have ever said anything like this. Sure, if you're one guy and you're running everything on a big site, that's going to become unmanageable. That's where you need to bring in other people to help take over some of that work. > Actually, i must say that mailman doesn't scale very well with the size > of the mailinglist in terms of administrative burden. The time needed > for administrative tasks increases overproportionally with the number > of subscribers. As the primary active listowner for all the official mailman-* lists, I can tell you that we have two of the top five in terms of number of subscribers (mailman-announce and mailman-users), both of which have over two thousand addresses on the list. There are a total of more than six thousand addresses on all the fourteen combined mailman-* lists. In terms of managing the lists themselves, I don't really put in that much work. The only two lists where I have to put in any list moderator work are mailman-developers and mailman-users, and that's no more than a few minutes per day. All the lists are configured to reject postings from addresses that are not subscribed, and only mailman-users and mailman-developers get any moderation traffic from new subscribers. I don't recall ever getting any spam to any of the -owners addresses, although that could just be a result of the multiple layers of anti-spam filtering that I have for all my mail. The traffic we do get to the -owners addresses tends to be mostly clueless idiots who think we're responsible for administering all mailing lists on the entire Internet, and that it's our responsibility to fix their broken mailing list. We disabuse them of that notion pretty rapidly. > While it took me maybe half an hour to an hour per month > to handle all mailinglist on mplayerhq.hu in 2002 (which i did alone), > it took me several hours per week to handle everything in 2005, although > the burden was splitt to three people. In the end, it took so much time, > that i had to give up on being listowner completely, to be able to do > anything else beside it. In other words, you brought in other people to take over that work, which is basically what I suggested. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From mark at msapiro.net Fri Dec 19 17:18:45 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 08:18:45 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: Brad Knowles wrote: >on 12/18/08 6:15 PM, Marvin Humphrey said: > > >> 2) Create a filter for messages sent to list-owner that only passes mail >> generated by Mailman itself. > >Mailman will never generate mail to the list-owner address. It will >receive mail that is addressed to list-owner and will re-route that >internally as appropriate, but it will never itself send e-mail to the >actual list-owner address. Actually, that's not true. A lot of Mailman generated notices are actually sent to list-owner, received and re-sent to the actual owner/moderator addresses. Note you may be able to accomplish 2) with header_filter_rules. It's tricky because the same rules are applied to both list mail and list-owner mail, so you have to be able to distinguish between them. If you aren't concerned about "implicit destination" list mail, you could do something like Rule 1 regexps: ^to:.*(\s|<)LISTNAME@ ^cc:.*(\s|<)LISTNAME@ action = accept Rule 2 regexp: ^message-id: $ action = accept Rule 3 regexp = . Action = discard The idea being that rule 1 passes mail destined for the list, rule 2 accepts mail with a mailman generated message-id and rule 3 discards the rest. Of course, as others have pointed out, discarding mail addressed to list-owner may not be a good idea. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From brad at shub-internet.org Fri Dec 19 17:21:42 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:21:42 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <87ej04zekd.fsf@xemacs.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <87ej04zekd.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: <494BCA16.7050603@shub-internet.org> Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Brad, do you think spammers really do that just to increase their > address count? I've always assumed that they were just harvested in > the usual way. I am convinced that spammers do this, yes. Just like they boost their deliverability numbers by intentionally targeting postmaster@ addresses (because the RFCs require that address will always accept mail no matter what). -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Fri Dec 19 17:37:50 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:37:50 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-12-19 at 02:03 -0600, Brad Knowles wrote: > on 12/18/08 6:15 PM, Marvin Humphrey said: > > > I run a couple software support mailing lists on a site that's been around for > > a decade or so. I'm the only admin, and an avalanche of spam crashes down on > > me every day. > > Welcome to the club. It's possible to use SpamAssassin with Mailman to cut down on the spam making it through the list to you. See James Henstridge's solution at for one method of doing this. Please note, though, that Henstridge's SpamAssassin.py is out of date and requires a small patch to work with current versions of Mailman. Mark Sapiro posted the one-line patch on Dec. 16 to this list in the thread with a subject of "Anomalies since upgrading to 2.1.11". See the list archive. I use SpamAssassin in this way and cut down substantially on the volume of spam reaching list moderators. I note that Brad doesn't mention this solution in his reply to you, so it may be frowned upon officially, but I've found it helpful. -- Lindsay Haisley |"Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 | trying to eradicate | http://www.fmp.com | dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | From measl at mfn.org Fri Dec 19 17:46:18 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:46:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] On Manageability (was: Re: Spam to list-owner) In-Reply-To: <494BC959.3070002@shub-internet.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <20081219094333.f0ca82c9.attila@kinali.ch> <494BC959.3070002@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: Good Morning Everyone. I think I see something in this "debate" that may be lost on the mailman listowners. While you may have 14k++ users, they are well behaved useers on a technical list. The listowner you are comparing notes with (and correctly asserting to split the work to) is more likely to be someone like me, playing the role of listowner for non-technical people who use mailman like it was IRC. Sadly, this is a not uncommon application for mailman, and one where a few management tweaks would make this already fantastic work even better. I, and I suspect the other listowner as well, get ton of implicit address requests (members who bcc one item to every list they've ever found, for every item that meets their fancy), over-size posting requests, and non-member postings that should get let through (this last is already dealt with). The ability to flag certain users as being able to ignore certain rules would be a godsend: you would remove many hours a month of listowner work. Yes, I realize that the current design of mailman doesnt lend itself well to this idea, and I am not holding my breath (I would never go back to a majordomo or listserv format again anyway - there's no comparison!). All the very best, and thanks again for all of the great work the mailman team has done on our behalf! //Alif -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From mark at msapiro.net Fri Dec 19 18:06:42 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 09:06:42 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security consequences of adding www user to mailmangroup In-Reply-To: <0A213DEE-1DDE-4F04-88DF-99AB434217BB@wisc.edu> Message-ID: James Riendeau wrote: > >I need to run bin/add_member in our Mailman 2.1.11 list server >installation from a cgi/perl script. Normally, it has to run as >root. The easy solution was to add the www user to the mailman >group. You can then: > >open(LISTSERVER, '|/usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members -r- '.$list_name); >print LISTSERVER $email; >close(LISTSERVER); > >My question is are there any security consequences from adding the >Apache2 user to the mailman group I should be aware of. It potentially allows the web server to access the Mailman installation without going through the CGIs. This could potentially allow retrieval of private archives and config.pck files which contain member addresses and their list passwords. Instead of doing this, you could make a compiled executable wrapper which is SETGID mailman and which calls add_members. You can also add members to a list by posting to or getting with appropriate query fragments. See, e.g., . -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Fri Dec 19 18:15:14 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:15:14 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] connect to exchange server In-Reply-To: References: <49496A08.1010800@riverviewtech.net> <20081217213225.GS1778@amyl.org.uk>, <4949712B.1060801@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: <494BD6A2.1070304@riverviewtech.net> On 12/18/08 06:51, Jeanne Ilchuk wrote: > I was looking thru the archives and found this note from 2004 (below) > which gave me the impression that it did not work with exchange. I don't think that it is possible to integrate Mailman with Exchange like you can with Sendmail / Postfix / Qmail / etc. But that does not mean that it can not be made to work. > Do I need to run again with cgi-gid=mailnull ? or can I just chgrp? I have no idea. > --with-mailhost=mail is the hostname our exchange server *nod* If I recall Solaris uses "mail" as sort of a ""magic host name as a place holder that everything uses and the system is set up so that the magic name of "mail" resolves to the actual mail server. Am I any where close? > On the mailman server, I changed the mailhost to the hostname of the > sun server where I installed mailman, then set up the apache server > with a dedicated IP and dns entry mailman. Ok. (I think.) > I'm kind of struggling here because I've been using ecartis MLM on an > old FreeBSD server that IT is eliminating. At the same time we > moved our mail from the freebsd server (postfix) to MS Exchange. I > don't have a clue how the exchange server works. I'm accessing my > own email using the WOA Light version, which would have to be imap > with SMTP [I thought]. Is exchange a pop3 server ? Who is administering Exchange for you? Exchange is /many/ things, including POP3, IMAP, SMTP, X.400, etc. > Thanks for all the speedy replies. I'll be back! -- Back to the > drawing board -- suggestions welcome. You did not say, do you want your mailing lists to be in the domain hosted by Exchange, or in a sub-domain that is hosted by the Solaris mail server? Either way, you are going to have to configure Exchange to route some email to the Solaris mail server, be it individual mail boxes, or a sub-domain. Also, what version of Exchange are you using? Grant. . . . From brad at shub-internet.org Fri Dec 19 18:23:03 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:23:03 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> Lindsay Haisley wrote: > I note that Brad doesn't mention this solution in his reply to you, so > it may be frowned upon officially, but I've found it helpful. SpamAssassin is one good anti-spam tool, but IMO it should be integrated into the MTA, because that's the only place where you can make these kinds of decisions before you actually accept the message. Once you accept a piece of spam, you've already lost. Even if you throw it away, the spammer was able to increase their deliverability count. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From brad at shub-internet.org Fri Dec 19 18:29:20 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:29:20 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] On Manageability In-Reply-To: References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <20081219094333.f0ca82c9.attila@kinali.ch> <494BC959.3070002@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <494BD9F0.9040606@shub-internet.org> J.A. Terranson wrote: > The listowner you are comparing notes with (and correctly > asserting to split the work to) is more likely to be someone like me, > playing the role of listowner for non-technical people who use mailman > like it was IRC. Sadly, this is a not uncommon application for mailman, > and one where a few management tweaks would make this already fantastic > work even better. Believe me, we get plenty of that on the non mailman-* mailing lists. The only thing is that I don't have to deal with most of that stuff, because all those other lists have other listowners. And I get plenty of this kind of stuff at ntp.org, too. But at that site, I'm the primary listowner for all the lists on the system, and that's why it is so much more work for me than what I do for python.org. This is a key reason behind my recommendation that you really need to get other people to help share the burden. > The ability to flag certain users as being able to ignore certain > rules would be a godsend: you would remove many hours a month of listowner > work. Yes, I realize that the current design of mailman doesnt lend > itself well to this idea, and I am not holding my breath (I would never go > back to a majordomo or listserv format again anyway - there's no > comparison!). This is the first I'm hearing in this conversation as a request for more granularity in terms of what certain users are allowed to do. More granularity with regards to what they can do when sending messages to the list is a perfectly reasonable request. Up until now, this conversation has been about someone wanting to completely eliminate the -owners address for a list, so that they didn't have to deal with that aspect of the administrative overhead of managing the list. These are two separate and distinct issues. One is a reasonable request that we might be able to address in Mailman3, the other ... not so much, although I do recognize the pain from which the request is being made. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From measl at mfn.org Fri Dec 19 18:37:52 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:37:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] On Manageability In-Reply-To: <494BD9F0.9040606@shub-internet.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <20081219094333.f0ca82c9.attila@kinali.ch> <494BC959.3070002@shub-internet.org> <494BD9F0.9040606@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Brad Knowles wrote: > This is the first I'm hearing in this conversation as a request for more > granularity in terms of what certain users are allowed to do. More > granularity with regards to what they can do when sending messages to the list > is a perfectly reasonable request. OK. If it's reasonable, here's my "wish list": Add option checkboxes to the current request. You already have an "Allow this person to send in the future", add an "Allow this person to ignore future size limits" and an "Allow this person to use implicit addresses". I also have a question. When I allow people through in the future, am I actually subscribing them with no-mail, or adding them to some kind of allow list? //Alif -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From brad at shub-internet.org Fri Dec 19 18:48:03 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:48:03 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] On Manageability In-Reply-To: References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <20081219094333.f0ca82c9.attila@kinali.ch> <494BC959.3070002@shub-internet.org> <494BD9F0.9040606@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <494BDE53.70103@shub-internet.org> J.A. Terranson wrote: > OK. If it's reasonable, here's my "wish list": > > Add option checkboxes to the current request. You already have an "Allow > this person to send in the future", add an "Allow this person to ignore > future size limits" and an "Allow this person to use implicit addresses". I'd suggest adding these to the list at . > I also have a question. When I allow people through in the future, am I > actually subscribing them with no-mail, or adding them to some kind of > allow list? You're adding them to a white list. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Fri Dec 19 18:59:15 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:59:15 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-12-19 at 11:23 -0600, Brad Knowles wrote: > Lindsay Haisley wrote: > > > I note that Brad doesn't mention this solution in his reply to you, so > > it may be frowned upon officially, but I've found it helpful. > > SpamAssassin is one good anti-spam tool, but IMO it should be integrated > into the MTA, because that's the only place where you can make these kinds > of decisions before you actually accept the message. Once you accept a > piece of spam, you've already lost. Even if you throw it away, the spammer > was able to increase their deliverability count. The problem with this is that no spam detection method is 100% effective, and with SpamAssassin there's some overlap between setting the rejection level low enough to be effective and getting false positive identification of spam. I use RBL filtering from several carefully selected RBL lists to eliminate about 80% of incoming spam "at the front door" (it never makes it onto the system) and the rest gets analyzed by SpamAssassin and identified spam tagged accordingly for subsequent segregation, if the user wants it. The RBL filtering here is probably well in excess of 99.99% accurate in its identification. The SA marking/segregation mechanism isn't in place for Henstridge's integration of SpamAssassin into Mailman, but the global rejection level can be set per list server. This solution isn't perfect, but it does help cut down on complaints from list owners about too much moderator spam. -- Lindsay Haisley | "In an open world, | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | who needs Windows | available at 512-259-1190 | or Gates" | http://pubkeys.fmp.com http://www.fmp.com | | From brad at shub-internet.org Fri Dec 19 19:09:34 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:09:34 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> Lindsay Haisley wrote: > The problem with this is that no spam detection method is 100% > effective, and with SpamAssassin there's some overlap between setting > the rejection level low enough to be effective and getting false > positive identification of spam. That's certainly true, but that's no reason to push anti-spam processing back to the point where you can't use SpamAssassin to refuse to accept the message. Even if you can't get 100% accuracy and 100% precision, you should do all the anti-spam processing as early in the pipeline as you can, which means putting them in the MTA and not Mailman. > This solution isn't perfect, but it does help cut down on complaints > from list owners about too much moderator spam. There's nothing you can do with SpamAssassin integrated into Mailman that you couldn't do with SpamAssassin integrated into the MTA, and there's lots of stuff that you can do with SpamAssassin when it is integrated into the MTA which you cannot do if SpamAssassin is further down the queue. So, there's every reason to integrate it into the MTA, and every reason to *NOT* integrate it into Mailman. The only thing that implementing anti-spam rules in Mailman would get you (beyond the anti-spam features that Mailman has today), is if the anti-spam processing system that was integrated was *different* from the one that was integrated into your MTA, so that you had an additional level of functionality and filtering with a different approach that would hopefully help fill some of the gaps in the approaches used earlier in the pipeline. So, for example, if we integrated SpamBayes into Mailman, that could be a benefit for sites that use something other than SpamBayes earlier in the pipeline. However, it wouldn't do us any good on python.org, since we already use SpamBayes integrated into our MTA. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From measl at mfn.org Fri Dec 19 19:41:50 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:41:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] On Manageability In-Reply-To: <494BDE53.70103@shub-internet.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <20081219094333.f0ca82c9.attila@kinali.ch> <494BC959.3070002@shub-internet.org> <494BD9F0.9040606@shub-internet.org> <494BDE53.70103@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Brad Knowles wrote: > J.A. Terranson wrote: > > > OK. If it's reasonable, here's my "wish list": > > > > Add option checkboxes to the current request. You already have an "Allow > > this person to send in the future", add an "Allow this person to ignore > > future size limits" and an "Allow this person to use implicit addresses". > > I'd suggest adding these to the list at > . Will do. Thank you1 //Alif -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From b19141 at anl.gov Fri Dec 19 21:28:48 2008 From: b19141 at anl.gov (Barry Finkel) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 14:28:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Questions About 2.1.9 to 2.1.11 Upgrade Message-ID: <20081219202848.7369D175E4@britaine.cis.anl.gov> When I upgraded my test Ubuntu system from Mailman 2.1.9 to 2.1.11 I saw messages for each list: Updating mailing list: mailman Updating the held requests database. - updating old private mbox file looks like you have a really recent CVS installation... you're either one brave soul, or you already ran me - updating old public mbox file looks like you have a really recent CVS installation... you're either one brave soul, or you already ran me Fixing language templates: mailman What is updated in the "private mbox file" and the "public mbox file"? I need to know if I need to backup the /var/lib/mailman/archives directory before I convert. I would prefer not to, as the archives are VERY large. I assume that if something drastic goes wrong with the update, then the only recourse is to restore all of the Mailman directories from a tar backup taken just before the conversion. I assume that just re-installing the Mailman 2.1.9 package (that I am currently running) over the 2.1.11 package will not work. Note that these packages are ones I built from the SourceForge source, not the Ubuntu/Debian packages. Thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Barry S. Finkel Computing and Information Systems Division Argonne National Laboratory Phone: +1 (630) 252-7277 9700 South Cass Avenue Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601 Building 222, Room D209 Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov Argonne, IL 60439-4828 IBMMAIL: I1004994 From mark at msapiro.net Fri Dec 19 22:56:54 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:56:54 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Questions About 2.1.9 to 2.1.11 Upgrade In-Reply-To: <20081219202848.7369D175E4@britaine.cis.anl.gov> Message-ID: Barry Finkel wrote: >When I upgraded my test Ubuntu system from Mailman 2.1.9 to 2.1.11 >I saw messages for each list: > > Updating mailing list: mailman > Updating the held requests database. > - updating old private mbox file > looks like you have a really recent CVS installation... > you're either one brave soul, or you already ran me > - updating old public mbox file > looks like you have a really recent CVS installation... > you're either one brave soul, or you already ran me > Fixing language templates: mailman > >What is updated in the "private mbox file" and the "public mbox file"? >I need to know if I need to backup the > > /var/lib/mailman/archives > >directory before I convert. I would prefer not to, as the archives >are VERY large. Over the years (pre Mailman 2.1) the mbox file has been located in different places in the hiereachy and had different names. bin/update (run as the final step of 'make install') is figuring out whether the mbox is in the place where the current release expects it to be, and if it isn't, will move it there. The 'private' looks like you have a really recent CVS installation... you're either one brave soul, or you already ran me message (admitedly not a very good message at this point) says that it found archives/private/LISTNAME.mbox/LISTNAME.mbox and didn't find any of the prior (pre 2.1) files so it didn't need to do anything. The 'public' message says it didn't find an actual file (as opposed to a symlink to a directory) at archives/public/LISTNAME and didn't need to do anything there either. In any case, it doesn't touch the contents of these files at all. It just renames them. >I assume that if something drastic goes wrong with the update, then >the only recourse is to restore all of the Mailman directories from >a tar backup taken just before the conversion. I assume that just >re-installing the Mailman 2.1.9 package (that I am currently running) >over the 2.1.11 package will not work. Note that these packages are >ones I built from the SourceForge source, not the Ubuntu/Debian >packages. Thanks. That's more or less correct. You can 'force' a downgrade, but it won't undo various config.pck, etc. changes. In many cases including downgrading from 2.1.11 to 2.1.9, the only changes would have been the addition of a couple of list attributes that wouldn't be referenced in 2.1.9 anyway, so a downgrade would be safe, BUT "if something drastic goes wrong with the update", there's no telling what might have been corrupted. It's always a good idea to have a backup. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From stephen at xemacs.org Sat Dec 20 05:22:03 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:22:03 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <494BCA16.7050603@shub-internet.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <87ej04zekd.fsf@xemacs.org> <494BCA16.7050603@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <877i5vzdas.fsf@xemacs.org> Brad Knowles writes: > Just like they boost their deliverability numbers by intentionally > targeting postmaster@ addresses (because the RFCs require that > address will always accept mail no matter what). Sad that their customers can be fooled by this.... From stephen at xemacs.org Sat Dec 20 05:32:52 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:32:52 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] On Manageability In-Reply-To: References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <20081219094333.f0ca82c9.attila@kinali.ch> <494BC959.3070002@shub-internet.org> <494BD9F0.9040606@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <8763lfzcsr.fsf@xemacs.org> J.A. Terranson writes: > Add option checkboxes to the current request. You already have an "Allow > this person to send in the future", add > "Allow this person to ignore future size limits" Better phrasing would be Do not enforce size limits on this person. ("in the future" is implied, although I guess some people will assume that if they check that box they don't need to check the Accept box). I don't much like this addition of more options per post, though, because these pages are already too big for convenience, spilling over to many screens. I would prefer a more compressed format so I can nuke the obvious spam quickly, then go through a pass with more detailed treatment of individual posts. Certainly both can be done, but the option of a highly compressed format is far higher priority on my wishlist. From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Sat Dec 20 05:31:22 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 22:31:22 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-12-19 at 12:09 -0600, Brad Knowles wrote: > That's certainly true, but that's no reason to push anti-spam processing > back to the point where you can't use SpamAssassin to refuse to accept the > message. Even if you can't get 100% accuracy and 100% precision, you should > do all the anti-spam processing as early in the pipeline as you can, which > means putting them in the MTA and not Mailman. I don't know, Brad. I'm using courier for my MTA, which I like a great deal, and it's extremely well engineered. It comes with a mail processing program called maildrop, kind of like procmail for adults, which is very capable. SpamAssassin is implemented for user accounts using a global maildroprc, and this might be possible for lists as well on a per-domain basis, but I don't know how useful that would be, and I'd lose the advantage that SpamAssassin.py gives me in allowing a "moderation margin" - a nice feature. I'm sure you familiar with Hentstridge's implementation for Mailman. SpamAssassin has to do a fairly intensive examination of the mail body and may reject based on this examination, but because of the way SMTP works, it's a bad practice to wait until after the DATA section of a mail transaction is complete to reject an email at the front door. One runs into, at very least, some theoretical logical conundrums, and even though it might be arguably OK to reject spam for all "rcpt to" recipients at once, it takes the choice away from individual users re. how severe they want to filter for spam. There are other considerations. So if I can't refuse potential spam at the SMTP front door, what difference does it make whether it gets detected in Mailman or the MTA? Mailman already has a SpamDetect module which is reasonably useless, and discards (not rejects) spam internally. What I'd really like is a way to hook SpamAssassin, or a similarly effective tool, into Mailman so that I can get a lot more fine-grained control and set meaningful parameters on a per-list basis. The further forward I shove it, the harder it is to exercise this kind of control. I'm always doing things with my servers which others tell me I shouldn't do, and as long as I'm careful about security and efficiency I often end up with some pretty elegant and flexible solutions. And then people who told me not to do these things want to know how I got things to work the way I did ;-) -- Lindsay Haisley | "The difference between | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | a duck is because one | available at 512-259-1190 | leg is both the same" | http://pubkeys.fmp.com http://www.fmp.com | - Anonymous | From stephen at xemacs.org Sat Dec 20 05:54:46 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:54:46 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <874p0zzbs9.fsf@xemacs.org> Brad Knowles writes: > Lindsay Haisley wrote: > > The problem with this is that no spam detection method is 100% > > effective, and with SpamAssassin there's some overlap between setting > > the rejection level low enough to be effective and getting false > > positive identification of spam. You're missing the point. If you're going to run SpamAssassin or anything else that is able to tag messages as well as simply reject/ quarantine/accept them, it's really a good idea to do it for *all* messages. You can run SpamAssassin in the MTA, reject some of the spam there based on fairly complex (and therefore precise) formulae, and then do further filtering later based on the tags that SpamAssassin will insert for you as headers. > > This solution isn't perfect, but it does help cut down on complaints > > from list owners about too much moderator spam. If it's not going to get to the moderators/owners, there's no good reason not to reject at the MTA stage, using a milter to do so before accepting delivery, and so reducing spammer deliverability scores. (It's not just your host you're protecting when you do this; you're undermining the whole spammer enterprise! Fight back -- you may not have a snowball's chance (etc) of winning, but you'll feel good!) Here's Brad: > There's nothing you can do with SpamAssassin integrated into Mailman that > you couldn't do with SpamAssassin integrated into the MTA, Not entirely true. Many installations refuse to permit per-user rules. (If you run SA yourself, you can specify the config file, and therefore your own rules.) If we let Brad be Brad :-), he'll probably reply that in his book that's a firing offense and you should be shopping for a new host. But YMMV. > The only thing that implementing anti-spam rules in Mailman would get you > (beyond the anti-spam features that Mailman has today), is if the anti-spam > processing system that was integrated was *different* from the one that was > integrated into your MTA, But if that buys *you* something, why not share the costs and benefits with all users on that system? I don't think this is actually a reason to do it at the Mailman level, *unless* you've got host-level constraints. Any spam analysis (other than human moderation) done at the Mailman level should be considered a thumb-in-dike technology, to be replaced with analysis and (at least some) filtering at the MTA level, with filtering at post-MTA levels to be moved to the MTA level as soon as accurate discrimination is possible. (Obviously this "ASAP" recommendation depends on admin talent and time availability, but note that a lot of it is done simply by upgrading your filters' rule databases regularly.) From brad at shub-internet.org Sat Dec 20 06:31:56 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:31:56 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <494C834C.4040006@shub-internet.org> on 12/19/08 10:31 PM, Lindsay Haisley said: > SpamAssassin has to do a fairly intensive examination of the mail body > and may reject based on this examination, but because of the way SMTP > works, it's a bad practice to wait until after the DATA section of a > mail transaction is complete to reject an email at the front door. The only real legitimate reason I've ever heard given for why programs like SpamAssassin should run after the original message has been received is because of the SMTP dialog timeouts listed in RFC 1123 section 5.3.2, and the fact that certain types of processing might take longer than would otherwise be considered reasonable during that SMTP dialog process. However, I think that has long since fallen by the wayside. These days, having a few extra seconds of delay is actually likely to make spammers go away and try someone else, which was the entire point of Ken Simpson's invited talk at LISA 2007, entitled "Using Throttling and Traffic Shaping to Combat Botnet Spam" (see ). They build commercial tools to intentionally add a delay before the connection ever hits your MTA, and they find that a short mandatory delay actually results in a significant reduction in spam -- just a few seconds is enough. Moreover, there are lots of things that can only be feasibly done by more complex processing systems like SpamAssassin, and you might as well hold the sender open while you do that processing. If the message is rejected, then you've spent the same amount of CPU time as you would have anyway, you helped slow the spammers down, and you didn't accept the message. If the message is accepted, then the sender probably wasn't held open very long. Speaking as the former chair of the Best Current Practices subgroup of the IETF/IRTF Anti-Spam Research Group, I can assure you that running SpamAssassin (and similar tools) in this "interactive mode" really is Best Current Practice. > One > runs into, at very least, some theoretical logical conundrums, and even > though it might be arguably OK to reject spam for all "rcpt to" > recipients at once, it takes the choice away from individual users re. > how severe they want to filter for spam. There are other > considerations. Tools like SpamAssassin can give you per-user controls. If you're not making use of those, then you can't realistically argue the point that you need them and therefore the SpamAssassin processing should be done elsewhere. > So if I can't refuse potential spam at the SMTP front door, what > difference does it make whether it gets detected in Mailman or the MTA? If it's done in the MTA, you save a lot of work with re-injecting of the message and all the work of starting up the Mailman modules, just to have the message rejected at a later stage. You really, really want to do as much work as you possibly can as early as possible in the pipeline. > Mailman already has a SpamDetect module which is reasonably useless, and > discards (not rejects) spam internally. Once you've accepted a message, if you decide it's spam, then you *CANNOT* reject the message. Your only choices are to tag it and pass it on to a later stage, or to drop it. Anything else makes you a source of "backscatter", a.k.a., "blowback", and you are then a tool of the spammers to join in a DDoS attack against some poor sucker in a distributed Joe Job attack. And being a source of backscatter will get you blacklisted about as fast as if you were a front-line spammer yourself. > What I'd really like is a way > to hook SpamAssassin, or a similarly effective tool, into Mailman so > that I can get a lot more fine-grained control and set meaningful > parameters on a per-list basis. The further forward I shove it, the > harder it is to exercise this kind of control. Take a closer look at the kinds of controls that SpamAssassin gives you. At this point, the only legitimate reason for providing any kind of hooks for tools like SpamAssassin or SpamBayes in the Mailman code is for those people who do not have this level of control over their MTA, so they simply have no choice -- either it's done inside of Mailman, or it's not done at all. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From brad at shub-internet.org Sat Dec 20 06:33:48 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:33:48 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] On Manageability In-Reply-To: <8763lfzcsr.fsf@xemacs.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <20081219094333.f0ca82c9.attila@kinali.ch> <494BC959.3070002@shub-internet.org> <494BD9F0.9040606@shub-internet.org> <8763lfzcsr.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: <494C83BC.4030508@shub-internet.org> on 12/19/08 10:32 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull said: > I don't much like this addition of more options per post, though, > because these pages are already too big for convenience, spilling over > to many screens. I would prefer a more compressed format so I can > nuke the obvious spam quickly, then go through a pass with more > detailed treatment of individual posts. I believe where we are going is that there will be a greatly simplified interface that is exposed by default, and experienced list moderators and listowners may be allowed to access an optional, and much more complete administration interface, depending on how the site administrator has configured the system. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From measl at mfn.org Sat Dec 20 06:38:59 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:38:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Lindsay Haisley wrote: > Mailman already has a SpamDetect module which is reasonably useless, and > discards (not rejects) spam internally. What I'd really like is a way Lindsay, you cannot, repeat NOT -reject- after you have accepted a message. Nonononono! Go look at the RFC if you have any doubt whatsoever. This is a horrifically BAD practice (which Barracuda and Exchange are renowned for) that you should avoid at any and all costs. > I'm always doing things with my servers which others tell me I shouldn't > do, and as long as I'm careful about security and efficiency I often end > up with some pretty elegant and flexible solutions. And then people who > told me not to do these things want to know how I got things to work the > way I did ;-) And then shake their heads that you really did it? Please. Don't reject after an accept: that is de-facto spam. //Alif -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From brad at shub-internet.org Sat Dec 20 06:40:50 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:40:50 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <874p0zzbs9.fsf@xemacs.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> <874p0zzbs9.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: <494C8562.60308@shub-internet.org> on 12/19/08 10:54 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull said: > Not entirely true. Many installations refuse to permit per-user rules. > (If you run SA yourself, you can specify the config file, and therefore > your own rules.) Fair enough. Which leads me to what I've said before, which is that the only legitimate reason left for providing hooks for integrating tools like SpamAssassin or SpamBayes inside of Mailman itself, is for those people who don't have full control over their MTA. It's still better to integrate tools like SpamAssassin and SpamBayes as early in the process as possible, but sometimes there are limits as to what is possible. Now, in Lindsey's case, we're both members of a local Unix user group here in Austin, and I happen to know that he owns the entire machine. So, it's certainly possible for him to install SpamAssassin with the full user-level rules incorporated. Of course, that may be a non-trivial task, but it's still an option that is available to him. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From measl at mfn.org Sat Dec 20 06:43:50 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:43:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] On Manageability In-Reply-To: <8763lfzcsr.fsf@xemacs.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <20081219094333.f0ca82c9.attila@kinali.ch> <494BC959.3070002@shub-internet.org> <494BD9F0.9040606@shub-internet.org> <8763lfzcsr.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Dec 2008, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > J.A. Terranson writes: > > > Add option checkboxes to the current request. You already have an "Allow > > this person to send in the future", add > > "Allow this person to ignore future size limits" > > Better phrasing would be > > Do not enforce size limits on this person. Agreed. > I don't much like this addition of more options per post, though, > because these pages are already too big for convenience, spilling over > to many screens. I would prefer a more compressed format so I can > nuke the obvious spam quickly, then go through a pass with more > detailed treatment of individual posts. This is a good point, although I still would like a lot more granularity in my decision making. The ability to set an override *once*, will save me hundreds of hours a year in listmeister time. At the same time, I agree the current interface is clunky, fugly, and slower that gardenias blossoming under heavy doses of fertilizer. But I love it just the same. > Certainly both can be done, but the option of a highly compressed > format is far higher priority on my wishlist. Interestingly, I would place it at #2 on my list, as getting #1 will by definition allow me to enjoy #2, but without #1, #2 doesnt matter. //Alif -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From stephen at xemacs.org Sat Dec 20 06:49:27 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:49:27 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <87zlirxuoo.fsf@xemacs.org> Lindsay Haisley writes: > So if I can't refuse potential spam at the SMTP front door, what > difference does it make whether it gets detected in Mailman or the MTA? None. But one still wonders why anybody would consider *running SpamAssassin* anywhere but in the MTA (or in the pipe to the delivery agent, if milters aren't supported as is apparently true for Courier) an advantage. > What I'd really like is a way to hook SpamAssassin, or a similarly > effective tool, into Mailman You can do that with Henstridge's code, but IMO it's an ugly kludge compared to running SpamAssassin early and configuring it to report special features for use by the SpamDetect Handler in Mailman, etc. They could be given default scores of 0.0 if they can't reliably be used for scoring except for certain addressees, but they'd still be reported if their rules are triggered. > so that I can get a lot more fine-grained control and set > meaningful parameters on a per-list basis. The further forward I > shove it, the harder it is to exercise this kind of control. In your case you'd be running it in maildrop, which presumably means you know which addressee(s) is (are) being delivered. It should be possible to give that information to SpamAssassin (SpamAssassin knows on which user's behalf it's being run, although I forget the details) and configure rules conditional on that information. I don't see why this would be enormously harder than than if SpamAssassin were running in Mailman, and it would have the advantage that rule dispatch would be configured in one place. From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Sat Dec 20 06:58:35 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:58:35 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <874p0zzbs9.fsf@xemacs.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> <874p0zzbs9.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: <1229752715.6803.95.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2008-12-20 at 13:54 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Brad Knowles writes: > > Lindsay Haisley wrote: > > > > The problem with this is that no spam detection method is 100% > > > effective, and with SpamAssassin there's some overlap between setting > > > the rejection level low enough to be effective and getting false > > > positive identification of spam. > > You're missing the point. If you're going to run SpamAssassin or > anything else that is able to tag messages as well as simply reject/ > quarantine/accept them, it's really a good idea to do it for *all* > messages. The devil is in the details here. I explicitly exempt email destined for forwarding/redirection from examination by SpamAssassin. I do this for two reasons. 1. User-settable options for SpamAssassin enable the segregation of identified spam into separate mailboxes, accessible via IMAP. Forwarded email has on mailboxes on the system so this can't be done, and I make the assumption that if people are setting up mail forwarding directives for their accounts then filtration for spam will be done on the system that actually accepts the mail for delivery. After the RBL filter in courier rejects about 80% of the incoming spam, redirected email is simply sent on to the receiving system, spam or no. It ain't FMP's responsibility! I don't run a spam filtering service. I love my CPU cycles :-) 2. The minimum class of email service FMP offers is mail forwarding only, no mailboxes, and hence no spam filtering other than front door RBL filtering. People get what they pay for. Mailman, and mailing lists at FMP just happen to work using the redirection/forwarding mechanism in courier, so Mailman doesn't benefit at all from SpamAssassin in the MTA, and must handle filtering in some other way. I really don't see a problem here. I just wish that SpamAssassin could be integrated more flexibly into Mailman. > You can run SpamAssassin in the MTA, reject some of the > spam there based on fairly complex (and therefore precise) formulae, > and then do further filtering later based on the tags that > SpamAssassin will insert for you as headers. Arrgh! This feels ugly, or at least un-elegant. There's no such thing as "precise formulae" when it comes to SpamAssassin, so this is difficult. And consider this problem: An email comes in to user A and user B - two recipients, two RCPT TO exchanges in the SMTP dialog. The MTA doesn't know what's in the message yet, but let's say it says "250 Ok." for both recipients. Then follows the DATA exchange and the message body is sent. And let's say SpamAssassin looks at the message body and determines that, based on the body content, the email is spam according to user A's settings in the SA database, but isn't spam according to user B's settings. What is the MTA to do? It has already passed the point of no return in accepting the recipients, and the only choice it has is to reject the email for both or reject it for neither. At this point it can't issue a split decision and return a reply consistent with RFCs. > > > This solution isn't perfect, but it does help cut down on complaints > > > from list owners about too much moderator spam. > > If it's not going to get to the moderators/owners, there's no good > reason not to reject at the MTA stage, using a milter to do so before > accepting delivery, and so reducing spammer deliverability scores. > (It's not just your host you're protecting when you do this; you're > undermining the whole spammer enterprise! Fight back -- you may not > have a snowball's chance (etc) of winning, but you'll feel good!) For years I reported every spam I got to my personal account - looked up the serving systems, or the systems hosting contact websites, and sent bucu letters to sysadmins all over the world. This was effective when a good portion of spam came from the US, and I know I got a lot of spammers' resources knocked offline. I found out later that my email address was on at least one undercover do-not-spam list used by some spammers. So I've done my time in the trenches, and at this point it's a no-nevermind to me whether I refuse a spam at the SMTP level or dump it in the cosmic bit bucket at a later stage. > Here's Brad: > > > There's nothing you can do with SpamAssassin integrated into Mailman that > > you couldn't do with SpamAssassin integrated into the MTA, > > Not entirely true. Many installations refuse to permit per-user rules. > (If you run SA yourself, you can specify the config file, and therefore > your own rules.) All FMP customers who have mailboxes on the system can set the SpamAssasin level at which mail will be identified as spam, what the tag in the subject line is identifying spam, and whether or not to segregate said spam into a separate IMAP folder. They can furthermore provide both a whitelist and a blacklist of addresses. So customers can't exactly write their own SA rules, but they have some control over the system. > If we let Brad be Brad :-), he'll probably reply that in his book that's > a firing offense and you should be shopping for a new host. But YMMV. > > > The only thing that implementing anti-spam rules in Mailman would get you > > (beyond the anti-spam features that Mailman has today), is if the anti-spam > > processing system that was integrated was *different* from the one that was > > integrated into your MTA, > > But if that buys *you* something, why not share the costs and benefits > with all users on that system? I don't think this is actually a > reason to do it at the Mailman level, *unless* you've got host-level > constraints. Putting SA processing into Mailman allows one to differentiate between moderator messages, subscriber messages, list control messages, etc. and handle them differently with regard to spam. -- Lindsay Haisley | "In an open world, | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | who needs Windows | available at 512-259-1190 | or Gates" | http://pubkeys.fmp.com http://www.fmp.com | | From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Sat Dec 20 07:03:52 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 00:03:52 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1229753032.6803.103.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-12-19 at 23:38 -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote: > On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Lindsay Haisley wrote: > > > > > Mailman already has a SpamDetect module which is reasonably useless, and > > discards (not rejects) spam internally. What I'd really like is a way > > Lindsay, you cannot, repeat NOT -reject- after you have accepted a > message. Nonononono! Go look at the RFC if you have any doubt > whatsoever. Why not? Mailman does it. There are many settings in Mailman which provide the option to silently _discard_ emails such as postings from non-members of a list. But I'm being perverse ;-) I've read the RFCs and understand what you're saying here. Basically, in the system I'm using, the _only_ mail that gets dropped altogether is list requests which are assigned a SA level over 5. Everything else for users and lists is quarantined or segregated, or rejected at the front door. > > I'm always doing things with my servers which others tell me I shouldn't > > do, and as long as I'm careful about security and efficiency I often end > > up with some pretty elegant and flexible solutions. And then people who > > told me not to do these things want to know how I got things to work the > > way I did ;-) > > And then shake their heads that you really did it? > Please. Don't reject after an accept: that is de-facto spam. Well if it's any consolation to you, I don't ever explicitly send a rejection back to the envelope sender :-) -- Lindsay Haisley | "In an open world, | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | who needs Windows | available at 512-259-1190 | or Gates" | http://pubkeys.fmp.com http://www.fmp.com | | From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Sat Dec 20 07:34:34 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 00:34:34 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <87zlirxuoo.fsf@xemacs.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87zlirxuoo.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: <1229754874.6803.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2008-12-20 at 14:49 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Lindsay Haisley writes: > > > So if I can't refuse potential spam at the SMTP front door, what > > difference does it make whether it gets detected in Mailman or the MTA? > > None. But one still wonders why anybody would consider *running > SpamAssassin* anywhere but in the MTA (or in the pipe to the delivery > agent, if milters aren't supported as is apparently true for Courier) > an advantage. Courier doesn't need milters. Maildrop can be run in what's called "embedded mode" which is effectively the same thing. I chose to accept spam (the 20% or so that makes it past RBL filtering) onto the system and give users the option to mark it and segregate it according to their preferences. Courier could easily be configured to keep reject identified spam in SMTP, but as it is, people are more comfortable having the option to examine it and adjust their filtering levels accordingly. This is beside the issue, since I have SA and RBL filtering working well, and exactly the way I want them to, for user mailboxes. I may need to do some work to get filtering for lists to work as I want them to. > > What I'd really like is a way to hook SpamAssassin, or a similarly > > effective tool, into Mailman > > You can do that with Henstridge's code, but IMO it's an ugly kludge > compared to running SpamAssassin early and configuring it to report > special features for use by the SpamDetect Handler in Mailman, etc. > They could be given default scores of 0.0 if they can't reliably be > used for scoring except for certain addressees, but they'd still be > reported if their rules are triggered. This is an iteresting idea. I'm not real happy with Henstridge's solution so I'll give this some thought. > In your case you'd be running it in maildrop, which presumably means > you know which addressee(s) is (are) being delivered. It should be > possible to give that information to SpamAssassin (SpamAssassin knows > on which user's behalf it's being run, although I forget the details) > and configure rules conditional on that information. I'm doing pretty much exactly this already for user mailboxes. Lists are a slightly different matter, for reasons explained elsewhere. > I don't see why > this would be enormously harder than than if SpamAssassin were running > in Mailman, and it would have the advantage that rule dispatch would Because I'm feeding Mailman through the forwarding/redirection system in courier (rather than the delivery agent), mail to lists isn't subject to SA filtering. This is by choice, for a variety of reasons. So if I want to use SA with Mailman I either have to configure it to run as per something like Henstridge's code, or I have to re-introduce SA filtering on a per-domain level for lists in the MTA. There may be some good reasons to do this, the main one being that Henstridge's code is apparently unmaintained and currently broken as posted on his website. I gotta go fix some supper for my lady and I before I get into trouble. Thanks for an interesting discussion. -- Lindsay Haisley |"Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 | trying to eradicate | http://www.fmp.com | dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | From ilchuk at wrlc.org Fri Dec 19 17:40:10 2008 From: ilchuk at wrlc.org (Jeanne Ilchuk) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:40:10 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] connect to exchange server In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Thanks, Mark. I'm on vac today but will find out if all email is sent to exchange (my guess is that it is because of prior problems with ecartis bounced messages). Sendmail doesn't have a user or group. /etc/group shows smmsp::25: I forgot where I found that information (to use 25) I'll update you on my progress next week. I need to finish up by end of year. Thanks for the help. jeanne ________________________________________ From: Mark Sapiro [mark at msapiro.net] Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 10:42 To: Jeanne Ilchuk; Mail List - Mailman Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] connect to exchange server Jeanne Ilchuk wrote: >I was looking thru the archives and found this note from 2004 (below) which gave me the impression that it did not work with exchange. That being said, here are more of my details. >I'm installing on a Solaris sparc (v10), which has a functioning Sendmail that sends job output etc to staff. I just found "Integrating Mailman with Sendmail" in the mailman docs, so I'm working with that. I ran the Makefile with these parms- >$ ./configure --with-mail-gid=25 --with-cgi-gid=nobody --with-python=/usr/bin/ >python --with-mailhost=mail --with-urlhost=mailman Is 25 the gid under which sendmail will invoke the mail wrapper? --with-mailhost and --with-urlhost are fully qualified domain names for email and web respectively. e.g mail.example.com and mailman at example.com. >Do I need to run again with cgi-gid=mailnull ? or can I just chgrp? You need to configure with --with-cgi-gid= whatever group apache will use when invoking Mailman's CGIs and no, you can't just chgrp unless by that you mean change the group that apache uses. >--with-mailhost=mail is the hostname our exchange server and assuming you qualify it, this is the host that Mailman will use in list addresses, envelope senders, etc. If it is possible, you could avoid a lot of pain by having incoming mail to Mailman go directly to sendmail at mailman.example.com, and skip exchange all together. The only reason this wouldn't work is if your network route all external port 25 connects to the exchange server. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From ilchuk at wrlc.org Fri Dec 19 18:42:41 2008 From: ilchuk at wrlc.org (Jeanne Ilchuk) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:42:41 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] connect to exchange server In-Reply-To: <494BD6A2.1070304@riverviewtech.net> References: <49496A08.1010800@riverviewtech.net> <20081217213225.GS1778@amyl.org.uk>, <4949712B.1060801@riverviewtech.net> , <494BD6A2.1070304@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: Thanks, Grant. My email to the mailman list is taking a long time to get through. Would you mind doing a reply all ? I'm on vacation and will work on this next week. Needs to be up and running by the end of the year. jeanne >You did not say, do you want your mailing lists to be in the domain >hosted by Exchange, or in a sub-domain that is hosted by the Solaris >mail server? The mailing lists will be on the mailman server [solaris]. I was as little contact as possible with the exchange server and the person running it. >Who is administering Exchange for you? The microsoft person. > Also, what version of Exchange are you using? version 8.1.240.0 Here is some other Exchange server info I get when I'm logged in. User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648) Outlook Web Access version: 8.1.311.2 Outlook Web Access host name: mail.wrlc.org Exchange Client Access server .NET Framework version: 2.0.50727.1433 Client Access server operating system version: Microsoft Windows NT 5.2.3790 Service Pack 2 Microsoft Exchange Client Access server version: 8.1.240.0 Mailbox server name: w2k-exchange1.wrlc2k.wrlc.org Mailbox server Microsoft Exchange version: 8.1.240.0 Other Microsoft Exchange server roles currently installed on the Client Access server: Mailbox, Hub Transport ________________________________________ From: mailman-users-bounces+ilchuk=wrlc.org at python.org [mailman-users-bounces+ilchuk=wrlc.org at python.org] On Behalf Of Grant Taylor [gtaylor at riverviewtech.net] Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 12:15 To: Mail List - Mailman Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] connect to exchange server On 12/18/08 06:51, Jeanne Ilchuk wrote: > I was looking thru the archives and found this note from 2004 (below) > which gave me the impression that it did not work with exchange. I don't think that it is possible to integrate Mailman with Exchange like you can with Sendmail / Postfix / Qmail / etc. But that does not mean that it can not be made to work. > Do I need to run again with cgi-gid=mailnull ? or can I just chgrp? I have no idea. > --with-mailhost=mail is the hostname our exchange server *nod* If I recall Solaris uses "mail" as sort of a ""magic host name as a place holder that everything uses and the system is set up so that the magic name of "mail" resolves to the actual mail server. Am I any where close? > On the mailman server, I changed the mailhost to the hostname of the > sun server where I installed mailman, then set up the apache server > with a dedicated IP and dns entry mailman. Ok. (I think.) > I'm kind of struggling here because I've been using ecartis MLM on an > old FreeBSD server that IT is eliminating. At the same time we > moved our mail from the freebsd server (postfix) to MS Exchange. I > don't have a clue how the exchange server works. I'm accessing my > own email using the WOA Light version, which would have to be imap > with SMTP [I thought]. Is exchange a pop3 server ? Exchange is /many/ things, including POP3, IMAP, SMTP, X.400, etc. > Thanks for all the speedy replies. I'll be back! -- Back to the > drawing board -- suggestions welcome. Either way, you are going to have to configure Exchange to route some email to the Solaris mail server, be it individual mail boxes, or a sub-domain. Grant. . . . ------------------------------------------------------ Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/ilchuk%40wrlc.org From stephen at xemacs.org Sat Dec 20 11:35:07 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 19:35:07 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <1229754874.6803.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87zlirxuoo.fsf@xemacs.org> <1229754874.6803.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <87wsdvxhgk.fsf@xemacs.org> Lindsay Haisley writes: > Courier doesn't need milters. Maildrop can be run in what's called > "embedded mode" which is effectively the same thing. No, it's not the same, not for the purpose of deciding whether *Courier* needs milters. *You* don't need milters because you don't mind eating the occasional slice of Spam. But you need to keep those concepts separate, or you're going to confuse the heck out of those of us who do care care about *every* spam we SMTP accept (not to mention yanking on Brad's "do it in the MTA" chain). > Courier could easily be configured to keep reject identified spam > in SMTP, but as it is, people are more comfortable having the > option to examine it and adjust their filtering levels accordingly. Sure, I do that too, but also avail myself of the option to SMTP reject SpamAssassin scores >15 (which actually does happen quite frequently even after RBL). From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Sat Dec 20 17:41:15 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:41:15 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <87wsdvxhgk.fsf@xemacs.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87zlirxuoo.fsf@xemacs.org> <1229754874.6803.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87wsdvxhgk.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: <1229791275.6803.177.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2008-12-20 at 19:35 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > Courier doesn't need milters. Maildrop can be run in what's called > > "embedded mode" which is effectively the same thing. > x` > No, it's not the same, not for the purpose of deciding whether > *Courier* needs milters. A "milter" is just an MTA component/plugin that reflects user-space (outside the MTA) decisions on spam/viruses back to the SMTP dialog so that a receiving server can reject an email for cause without generating a backscatter email to the envelope sender. Maildrop in embedded mode _is_ a milter - a highly programmable one. Using maildrop, an email can be fed to any program for analysis - shell script, SpamAssassin, etc. - which need not be SMTP-aware, and the output and exit code of said program can be used to determine the course of an SMTP session. Yes, it's desirable when possible to reject problem email at the front door, but it's not a religion with me. I've done my time in the spam-fighting trenches, probably more than most mail admins. I do understand email pretty well, and know how to implement decisions I make about how to handle problem email. It's just these decisions are probably not the same ones you'd make. I'm not going to change my fundamental decisions on how I handle problem emails on my system, which aren't doctrinaire and may not be e-politically-correct by some standards, but I've kept this thread going because I rather selfishly find that occasionally someone tosses out a Good Idea that I may be able to use :-) BTW, as I mentioned, about 80% of the spam _I_ (personally) get is rejected by courier based on RBL lookups, and I assume the percentage is similar for other system users. I have a cron job which generates a daily report on these rejections for me, and anyone else who wants one. The number of rejections I see in the report for my personal email varies between about 200 and 800 or so a day, and has remained in this range for several years. Frankly, I don't believe rejecting an SMTP transaction out front makes one whit of difference to spammers, and I've seen no arguments to indicate that it does. A huge amount of this spew comes from Asia, Russia, South America, and my guess is that it's either coming from virally infected / hacked boxes or from rogue servers that crank out terabytes of this crap, and in any case the people sending it don't give a damn whether any particular target (victim!) system rejects 1% or 99% of it. It's just that, by rejecting this stuff out front, one gets the visceral satisfaction of knowing that some spammer, somewhere _might_ be annoyed or inconvenienced by seeing the bounce notices from their server. I've heard all the arguments about CPU usage and system load involved in accepting and processing spam, but my service is a relatively small one and my system load generally runs under 1.0, even with all that spam coming in :) -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | if you let it" | available at 512-259-1190 | (The Roadie) | http://pubkeys.fmp.com http://www.fmp.com | | From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Sat Dec 20 18:21:43 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 11:21:43 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] CC's, replies Message-ID: <1229793703.6803.188.camel@localhost.localdomain> Steven, J.A., others, Thank's for some good ideas re. spam management implementation. I do have one request. When you reply to one of my posts on this list, please don't CC me, or reply to me and CC the list. I'm on the list so I get a copy of everything you post. I don't need two of them :-) -- Lindsay Haisley | "We are all broken | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | toasters, but we | available at 512-259-1190 | still manage to make | http://www.fmp.com | toast" | | (Cheryl Dehut) | From measl at mfn.org Sat Dec 20 18:30:35 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 11:30:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Posts from listowner address issue Message-ID: Good Morning, Last night our colo came down for routine maintenace, when everything came back up, I noticed a *really* strange issue: listowner address sends a "Maintenance Over" message to a bunch of machines/lists. On one machine with 4 lists, owneraddress posting shows up in archives, but owner never sees copy, nor any postings from this list (while shecking archives I realized the list was very active, but I was not seeing the posts being distributed). Looking in logs/smtp, I see no sign of the messages from owner that are clearly in the archives! In logs/error, I see that when the machine came up there are intermittent errors that look like: Dec 20 01:35:17 2008 (633) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/usr/home/crippen/mailman/qfiles/virgin/1229758515.53407+f7dd7f3e72a65eb8764166694ac958f0d9335dcf.pck' Dec 20 01:35:17 2008 (633) Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/home/crippen/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 100, in _oneloop msg, msgdata = self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase) File "/usr/home/crippen/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 154, in dequeue fp = open(filename) IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/usr/home/crippen/mailman/qfiles/virgin/1229758515.53407+f7dd7f3e72a65eb8764166694ac958f0d9335dcf.pck' Dec 20 01:35:17 2008 (633) Skipping and preserving unparseable message: 1229758515.53407+f7dd7f3e72a65eb8764166694ac958f0d9335dcf Dec 20 01:35:17 2008 (633) Failed to unlink/preserve backup file: /usr/home/crippen/mailman/qfiles/virgin/1229758515.53407+f7dd7f3e72a65eb8764166694ac958f0d9335dcf.bak Dec 20 03:04:13 2008 (412) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/usr/home/crippen/mailman/qfiles/commands/1229763852.582849+9e25777e9465de03f3615d9fdad3976458c49d2c.pck' Dec 20 03:04:13 2008 (412) Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/home/crippen/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 100, in _oneloop msg, msgdata = self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase) File "/usr/home/crippen/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 154, in dequeue fp = open(filename) IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/usr/home/crippen/mailman/qfiles/commands/1229763852.582849+9e25777e9465de03f3615d9fdad3976458c49d2c.pck' but nothing like that anywhere around the time of my "We're up, right?" test posts. logs/bounce has no sign of trouble. logs/smtp-failure is empty logs/qrunner says: Dec 20 11:04:22 2008 (5424) ArchRunner qrunner started. Dec 20 11:04:22 2008 (5425) BounceRunner qrunner started. Dec 20 11:04:23 2008 (5430) VirginRunner qrunner started. Dec 20 11:04:23 2008 (5427) IncomingRunner qrunner started. Dec 20 11:04:23 2008 (5428) NewsRunner qrunner started. Dec 20 11:04:23 2008 (5429) OutgoingRunner qrunner started. Dec 20 11:04:23 2008 (5431) RetryRunner qrunner started. Dec 20 11:04:23 2008 (5426) CommandRunner qrunner started. logs/mischief is empty logs/postfix is empty I'm just lost. It looks like everyone but listowner is getting through: I see replies. I did a quick check_perm, and we're fine.. Help? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Sat Dec 20 18:48:33 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 11:48:33 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Posts from listowner address issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1229795313.6803.197.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2008-12-20 at 11:30 -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote: > listowner address sends a "Maintenance Over" message to a bunch of > machines/lists. It's not coming from Mailman. Are your list/list-owner addresses possibly referenced in a boot script? > On one machine with 4 lists, owneraddress posting shows up in archives, > but owner never sees copy, nor any postings from this list (while shecking > archives I realized the list was very active, but I was not seeing the > posts being distributed). I assume you're subscribed, and your traffic turned on. Just because you're the list owner doesn't mean you get the list traffic. > > Looking in logs/smtp, I see no sign of the messages from owner that are > clearly in the archives! In logs/error, I see that when the machine came > up there are intermittent errors that look like: > > Dec 20 01:35:17 2008 (633) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 2] No such > file or directory: > '/usr/home/crippen/mailman/qfiles/virgin/1229758515.53407+f7dd7f3e72a65eb8764166694ac958f0d9335dcf.pck' '/usr/home/crippen/' is very non-standard FSH. Normally one would expect '/home/crippen'. Is this actually how things are configured? -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | if you let it" | available at 512-259-1190 | (The Roadie) | http://pubkeys.fmp.com http://www.fmp.com | | From measl at mfn.org Sat Dec 20 19:06:11 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:06:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Posts from listowner address issue In-Reply-To: <1229795313.6803.197.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1229795313.6803.197.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Dec 2008, Lindsay Haisley wrote: > On Sat, 2008-12-20 at 11:30 -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote: > > listowner address sends a "Maintenance Over" message to a bunch of > > machines/lists. > > It's not coming from Mailman. Are your list/list-owner addresses > possibly referenced in a boot script? No. > > On one machine with 4 lists, owneraddress posting shows up in archives, > > but owner never sees copy, nor any postings from this list (while shecking > > archives I realized the list was very active, but I was not seeing the > > posts being distributed). > > I assume you're subscribed, and your traffic turned on. Just because > you're the list owner doesn't mean you get the list traffic. Yes, yes, etc. Allow me to reiterate: Everyone seems to be OK *except* the listowner. I checked that I was still subbed and not being caught in a discard file. Also recall, the other 3 lists do capture and forward the listowner. It's just ONE list out of four doing this. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From measl at mfn.org Sat Dec 20 19:07:07 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:07:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] [2] Re: Posts from listowner address issue In-Reply-To: <1229795313.6803.197.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1229795313.6803.197.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Since it's apparently not clear: this is a long existing and well behaved mailman installation prior to today. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Sat Dec 20 19:28:17 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:28:17 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Posts from listowner address issue In-Reply-To: References: <1229795313.6803.197.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1229797698.6803.215.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2008-12-20 at 12:06 -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote: > On Sat, 20 Dec 2008, Lindsay Haisley wrote: > > > On Sat, 2008-12-20 at 11:30 -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote: > > > listowner address sends a "Maintenance Over" message to a bunch of > > > machines/lists. > > > > It's not coming from Mailman. Are your list/list-owner addresses > > possibly referenced in a boot script? > > No. I tend to use grep like a local google lookup, and find a lot of problems this way. If "Maintenance Over" is a phrase in the message, grep -R for it in /etc, /usr/sbin, other likely places (and go have a cup of coffee while you're waiting!) Locating the text file or program from which something originates generally helps. > > > On one machine with 4 lists, owneraddress posting shows up in archives, > > > but owner never sees copy, nor any postings from this list (while shecking > > > archives I realized the list was very active, but I was not seeing the > > > posts being distributed). > > > > I assume you're subscribed, and your traffic turned on. Just because > > you're the list owner doesn't mean you get the list traffic. > > Yes, yes, etc. Allow me to reiterate: Everyone seems to be OK *except* the > listowner. I checked that I was still subbed and not being caught in a > discard file. Also recall, the other 3 lists do capture and forward the > listowner. It's just ONE list out of four doing this. Thanks for clarifying, but it's still not clear. Do you mean the list-owner at domain.name address is subbed to the list, or the address to which list-owner points is on the list? Are you saying that email explicitly addressed to list-owner at domain.name for the problem list doesn't make it through to the referenced address(es), or just that _list traffic_ isn't properly delivered to this address? -- Lindsay Haisley FMP Computer Services From mark at msapiro.net Sat Dec 20 19:29:37 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:29:37 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Posts from listowner address issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: J.A. Terranson wrote: > >Looking in logs/smtp, I see no sign of the messages from owner that are >clearly in the archives! In logs/error, I see that when the machine came >up there are intermittent errors that look like: > >Dec 20 01:35:17 2008 (633) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 2] No such >file or directory: >'/usr/home/crippen/mailman/qfiles/virgin/1229758515.53407+f7dd7f3e72a65eb8764166694ac958f0d9335dcf.pck' >Dec 20 01:35:17 2008 (633) Traceback (most recent call last): > File "/usr/home/crippen/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 100, in >_oneloop > msg, msgdata = self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase) > File "/usr/home/crippen/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 154, >in dequeue > fp = open(filename) >IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: >'/usr/home/crippen/mailman/qfiles/virgin/1229758515.53407+f7dd7f3e72a65eb8764166694ac958f0d9335dcf.pck' This comnes from multiple qrunners serving the same queue slice. See the FAQ at . >Dec 20 01:35:17 2008 (633) Skipping and preserving unparseable message: >1229758515.53407+f7dd7f3e72a65eb8764166694ac958f0d9335dcf This may be an unparseable message. It got preserved for analysis in qfiles/shunt (2.1.10) or qfiles/bad (2.1.11). view it with bin/dumpdb -p or bin/show_qfiles/. It's name is the string in the message with a .psv extension. >Dec 20 01:35:17 2008 (633) Failed to unlink/preserve backup file: >/usr/home/crippen/mailman/qfiles/virgin/1229758515.53407+f7dd7f3e72a65eb8764166694ac958f0d9335dcf.bak This is probably the multiple qrunner issue. >Dec 20 03:04:13 2008 (412) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 2] No such >file or directory: >'/usr/home/crippen/mailman/qfiles/commands/1229763852.582849+9e25777e9465de03f3615d9fdad3976458c49d2c.pck' >Dec 20 03:04:13 2008 (412) Traceback (most recent call last): > File "/usr/home/crippen/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 100, in >_oneloop > msg, msgdata = self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase) > File "/usr/home/crippen/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 154, >in dequeue > fp = open(filename) >IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: >'/usr/home/crippen/mailman/qfiles/commands/1229763852.582849+9e25777e9465de03f3615d9fdad3976458c49d2c.pck' And this too. I don't know if these issues are related to your missing messages or not, but you need to resolve the multiple qrunners (seems that Mailman is being started twice in a reboot) and see what the preserved message is. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Sat Dec 20 19:35:36 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:35:36 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] CC's, replies In-Reply-To: <1229793703.6803.188.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Lindsay Haisley wrote: > >I do >have one request. When you reply to one of my posts on this list, >please don't CC me, or reply to me and CC the list. I'm on the list so >I get a copy of everything you post. I don't need two of them :-) People reply-all to list posts for various reasons. One very good reason is it keeps posters "in the loop" even if they are digest subscribers. If you set your list options to "nodups" ("Avoid duplicate copies of messages?" on the user options page) you will not receive the message from the list if your subscribed address is in To: or Cc:, and if the address is in Cc: it will be removed from the Cc: in the post sent from the list. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From measl at mfn.org Sat Dec 20 19:41:49 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:41:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Posts from listowner address issue In-Reply-To: <1229797698.6803.215.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1229795313.6803.197.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1229797698.6803.215.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Dec 2008, Lindsay Haisley wrote: > Thanks for clarifying, but it's still not clear. Do you mean the > list-owner at domain.name address is subbed to the list, or the address to which > list-owner points is on the list? Good point. LO in this case is just an address at another domain, on another box, past a different segment. > Are you saying that email explicitly > addressed to list-owner at domain.name for the problem list doesn't make it > through to the referenced address(es), or just that _list traffic_ isn't > properly delivered to this address? Traffic from 1 of the 4 lists is no longer going to LO address. Likely coincidental, however, I would normally expect a user complaining of this to have bounces, which I see not for LO. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From mark at msapiro.net Sat Dec 20 19:49:11 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:49:11 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Posts from listowner address issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark Sapiro wrote: >J.A. Terranson wrote: > >>Dec 20 01:35:17 2008 (633) Skipping and preserving unparseable message: >>1229758515.53407+f7dd7f3e72a65eb8764166694ac958f0d9335dcf > > >This may be an unparseable message. It got preserved for analysis in >qfiles/shunt (2.1.10) or qfiles/bad (2.1.11). view it with bin/dumpdb >-p or bin/show_qfiles/. It's name is the string in the message with a >.psv extension. > > >>Dec 20 01:35:17 2008 (633) Failed to unlink/preserve backup file: >>/usr/home/crippen/mailman/qfiles/virgin/1229758515.53407+f7dd7f3e72a65eb8764166694ac958f0d9335dcf.bak > > >This is probably the multiple qrunner issue. Actually, the above seems a bit more complicated. The original message is in the virgin queue so should never be unparseable. It may all be a qrunner race issue. I.e. some VirginRunner other than PID 633 processed the message and when PID 633 tried to preserve it, the other runner instance had already removed it, but that doesn't explain why PID 633 found it unparseable in the first place. Does 1229758515.53407+f7dd7f3e72a65eb8764166694ac958f0d9335dcf.psv exist in qfiles/shunt or qfiles/bad? -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Sat Dec 20 19:53:12 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:53:12 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Posts from listowner address issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: J.A. Terranson wrote: > >On Sat, 20 Dec 2008, Lindsay Haisley wrote: > >> Thanks for clarifying, but it's still not clear. Do you mean the >> list-owner at domain.name address is subbed to the list, or the address to which >> list-owner points is on the list? > >Good point. LO in this case is just an address at another domain, on >another box, past a different segment. > >> Are you saying that email explicitly >> addressed to list-owner at domain.name for the problem list doesn't make it >> through to the referenced address(es), or just that _list traffic_ isn't >> properly delivered to this address? > >Traffic from 1 of the 4 lists is no longer going to LO address. Likely >coincidental, however, I would normally expect a user complaining of this >to have bounces, which I see not for LO. You still haven't explicitly answered the question. Is the "address at another domain, on another box, past a different segment" a member of the list or is it just the owner. If it is the owner, but not a list member, exactly what messages is it not getting that it should be getting? -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From measl at mfn.org Sat Dec 20 19:56:36 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:56:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Posts from listowner address issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Dec 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote: > You still haven't explicitly answered the question. Is the "address at > another domain, on another box, past a different segment" a member of > the list or is it just the owner. If it is the owner, but not a list > member, exactly what messages is it not getting that it should be > getting? I stated in the original post that LO was also subbed. LO is getting everything (requests, other list traffic, etc) *except* traffic from list 1. But posts sent to list 1 show up in the archives of list 1: http://lists.ccm-l.org/pipermail/ccm-l/2008-December/011111.html http://lists.ccm-l.org/pipermail/ccm-l/2008-December/011112.html -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From brad at shub-internet.org Sat Dec 20 20:13:03 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:13:03 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <1229791275.6803.177.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87zlirxuoo.fsf@xemacs.org> <1229754874.6803.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87wsdvxhgk.fsf@xemacs.org> <1229791275.6803.177.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <494D43BF.9090200@shub-internet.org> on 12/20/08 10:41 AM, Lindsay Haisley said: > A "milter" is just an MTA component/plugin that reflects user-space > (outside the MTA) decisions on spam/viruses back to the SMTP dialog so > that a receiving server can reject an email for cause without generating > a backscatter email to the envelope sender. That is one possible description of a milter, yes. But that does not describe all possible milters, no. You are correct that milters sit outside of the MTA itself, but their purpose is to provide different tools to the "mail filter" process than are normally available inside the MTA itself. What those different tools are will depend on the milter. Some of them are seriously anal about checking exact conformance to the way certain headers are supposed to be used, because a certain class of spam tends to get these headers wrong in subtle ways. Some of them will check the NS records of the domain of the sending MTA, or the whois registration of the network of the sending MTA, so that you can ban entire classes of senders based on whether or not they share the same nameserver as known spammers (because spammers tend to re-use the same nameservers over and over again, regardless of how many thousands or millions of domains they register), or they tend to re-use the same network registrars. Some milters will use tools like "p0f" to do a passive OS check on the incoming connection (much like the OS determination techniques used in nmap, but using purely passive means), and then take one of several different actions based on what kind of machine is making the incoming connection -- reject them outright if they're running an OS you don't like (since >99% of all spam comes from Windows boxes, this can be a huge win all by itself), or maybe put them into a tarpit (to make them use up their resources), or whatever. Milters can do virtually anything, in any way they want. You can write your own milters in Perl or any other language you want. Unfortunately, milters are not widely supported outside of modern versions of sendmail and postfix. > BTW, as I mentioned, about 80% of the spam _I_ (personally) get is > rejected by courier based on RBL lookups, and I assume the percentage is > similar for other system users. I have a cron job which generates a > daily report on these rejections for me, and anyone else who wants one. I have my own scripts that I've written for the same purpose. Your statistics do not accurately describe the situation that I personally see. At UT Austin, we reject ~95% of all incoming mail at the SMTP dialog level, because we use Ironport e-mail security appliances that check the incoming connection against the SenderBase reputation system, and SenderBase has several hundred different inputs that are used to calculate an overall score for that sender. They monitor all the major RBLs (and a lot that you've never heard of), but they also consider what the registered nameservers are for the sending domain, who the registered owner of the network is in whois, and all those other things that you might want to check. We reject another ~2% of the total with content-based checks. > The number of rejections I see in the report for my personal email > varies between about 200 and 800 or so a day, and has remained in this > range for several years. Frankly, I don't believe rejecting an SMTP > transaction out front makes one whit of difference to spammers, and I've > seen no arguments to indicate that it does. Do some research on the economics of spam, and how these guys get their money. It is an entire black economy, and they get paid based on their deliverability, just like any other bulk mail service. > A huge amount of this spew > comes from Asia, Russia, South America, and my guess is that it's either > coming from virally infected / hacked boxes or from rogue servers that > crank out terabytes of this crap, and in any case the people sending it > don't give a damn whether any particular target (victim!) system rejects > 1% or 99% of it. Some care, some don't. But you don't know in advance which type of spammer you have connecting to you. > It's just that, by rejecting this stuff out front, one gets the visceral > satisfaction of knowing that some spammer, somewhere _might_ be annoyed > or inconvenienced by seeing the bounce notices from their server. I've > heard all the arguments about CPU usage and system load involved in > accepting and processing spam, but my service is a relatively small one > and my system load generally runs under 1.0, even with all that spam > coming in :) If more people rejected spam outright during the SMTP dialog, we would make a measurable impact on the spammer economy. So long as there are plenty of people who are happy to just throw it away after-the-fact, then the spammers continue to win. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From mark at msapiro.net Sat Dec 20 20:13:13 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 11:13:13 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Posts from listowner address issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: J.A. Terranson wrote: > >I stated in the original post that LO was also subbed. Sorry. I missed that. I was more focussed on your multiple qrunners (my diagnosis) issue, and then I skipped ahead. Have you resolved the multiple qrunners? >LO is getting >everything (requests, other list traffic, etc) *except* traffic from list >1. But posts sent to list 1 show up in the archives of list 1: >http://lists.ccm-l.org/pipermail/ccm-l/2008-December/011111.html >http://lists.ccm-l.org/pipermail/ccm-l/2008-December/011112.html Since the list is currently active, presumably others are receiving its posts. Is delivery enabled for the owner's subscribed address on list 1? -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From measl at mfn.org Sat Dec 20 20:21:14 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:21:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Posts from listowner address issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Dec 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote: > >I stated in the original post that LO was also subbed. > > > Sorry. I missed that. I was more focussed on your multiple qrunners (my > diagnosis) issue, and then I skipped ahead. > > Have you resolved the multiple qrunners? Yes, with work. there multiples running (5)? I don't know how or why, but there were 5 full instantiations running. Killed everything by hand (mailmanctl stop was useless), and restarted it and everything *seems* OK now. The files referenced were nowhere to be found, so picking them apart is a non starter. Looks like a race condition: Does mailman not check to see if it's already running? > >LO is getting > >everything (requests, other list traffic, etc) *except* traffic from list > >1. But posts sent to list 1 show up in the archives of list 1: > >http://lists.ccm-l.org/pipermail/ccm-l/2008-December/011111.html > >http://lists.ccm-l.org/pipermail/ccm-l/2008-December/011112.html > > > Since the list is currently active, presumably others are receiving its > posts. Yep. > Is delivery enabled for the owner's subscribed address on list 1? Also mentioned in the first post: yes. This was a really odd event. I'm pretty surprised to find 5 copies happily beating each other up without checking. Could this be a build issue (FreeBSD - I know there are reported "difficulties" here)< or does MM not check? Thanks for the guidance! //Alif -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Sat Dec 20 20:54:33 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:54:33 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <494D43BF.9090200@shub-internet.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87zlirxuoo.fsf@xemacs.org> <1229754874.6803.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87wsdvxhgk.fsf@xemacs.org> <1229791275.6803.177.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494D43BF.9090200@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <1229802873.6803.264.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2008-12-20 at 13:13 -0600, Brad Knowles wrote: > Unfortunately, milters are not widely supported outside of modern > versions of sendmail and postfix. Courier's maildrop implements a perl-like structured scripting language that's about as flexible as anything I'm aware of for this purpose. Any program that generates output and an exit code can be executed from a maildrop script and the results analyzed and appropriate action taken. > > BTW, as I mentioned, about 80% of the spam _I_ (personally) get is > > rejected by courier based on RBL lookups, and I assume the percentage is > > similar for other system users. I have a cron job which generates a > > daily report on these rejections for me, and anyone else who wants one. > > I have my own scripts that I've written for the same purpose. Your > statistics do not accurately describe the situation that I personally see. Well I'm probably not doing as effective a job of pre-filtering as you are at UT. I've looked a bit at the stats for other users on FMP's servers and what I see for myself is in the same ballpark. Mind you, I'm only using about 6 RBL lists. _Most_ of the catches are from the CBL, . > At UT Austin, we reject ~95% of all incoming mail at the SMTP dialog > level, because we use Ironport e-mail security appliances that check the > incoming connection against the SenderBase reputation system, and > SenderBase has several hundred different inputs that are used to > calculate an overall score for that sender. They monitor all the major > RBLs (and a lot that you've never heard of), but they also consider what > the registered nameservers are for the sending domain, who the > registered owner of the network is in whois, and all those other things > that you might want to check. I'm just running a couple of colo'd Linux boxes running F/OSS software, for family, friends and several dozen commercial clients. I'm a small fish. Every now and then I need to revisit mail filtering issues and re-think what I'm doing and make sure it's compliant with the current situation. Nothing ever stays the same on the Internet. > Do some research on the economics of spam, and how these guys get their > money. It is an entire black economy, and they get paid based on their > deliverability, just like any other bulk mail service. I either have to make decisions out front about rejecting spam based on content, or I need to accept it and pass it on to users for them to analyze and reject it, and if they set their filtering levels too high and their SA Bayes data store isn't properly "well educated", they get false positive hits and have to fish stuff out of their spam mail folder. I think the idea of picking a SA level of, say, 10 and rejecting outright anything at or above this is probably a sound policy. I'm not doing this now, but using maildrop and SA it's pretty easy to do. > If more people rejected spam outright during the SMTP dialog, we would > make a measurable impact on the spammer economy. So long as there are > plenty of people who are happy to just throw it away after-the-fact, > then the spammers continue to win. As always, your advice and concerns are well-considered, Brad. I do need to accept a certain amount of this stuff, consistent with the requirement that 100% of legitimate email be delivered (and SA is far from perfect), and because I'm a SOHO business, and a small one at that, I can't afford dedicated analytical appliances and proprietary software for this, most of which is outside my budget. There's doubtless more I can do. It's a beautiful day, and I'm wasting it sitting indoors in front of a computer. I'm outa here!!! -- Lindsay Haisley | "The voice of dissent | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | was arrested before the | available at 512-259-1190 | president cleared his | http://pubkeys.fmp.com http://www.fmp.com | throat to speak | | of freedom" | | (Chris Chandler) | From mark at msapiro.net Sat Dec 20 21:01:11 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:01:11 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Posts from listowner address issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: J.A. Terranson wrote: > >On Sat, 20 Dec 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote: > >> >I stated in the original post that LO was also subbed. >> >> >> Sorry. I missed that. I was more focussed on your multiple qrunners (my >> diagnosis) issue, and then I skipped ahead. >> >> Have you resolved the multiple qrunners? > >Yes, with work. there multiples running (5)? I don't know how or why, >but there were 5 full instantiations running. Killed everything by hand >(mailmanctl stop was useless), and restarted it and everything *seems* OK >now. mailmanctl stop should have stopped the last instance started, but yes, it isn't going to stop everything in this situation. >The files referenced were nowhere to be found, so picking them apart is a >non starter. Looks like a race condition: Does mailman not check to see >if it's already running? It does unless it is forced not to. The issue is that the check is via lock files and init scripts tend to force override of the checks on the theory that any lock files are residue from a prior boot. >> >LO is getting >> >everything (requests, other list traffic, etc) *except* traffic from list >> >1. But posts sent to list 1 show up in the archives of list 1: >> >http://lists.ccm-l.org/pipermail/ccm-l/2008-December/011111.html >> >http://lists.ccm-l.org/pipermail/ccm-l/2008-December/011112.html >> >> >> Since the list is currently active, presumably others are receiving its >> posts. > >Yep. > >> Is delivery enabled for the owner's subscribed address on list 1? >Also mentioned in the first post: yes. Actually, I don't see it in the first post at . In your second post at , I see I checked that I was still subbed and not being caught in a discard file. Perhaps "not being caught in a discard file" means to you that Mailman's delivery is enabled, but it doesn't to me. Actually, another possibility is that the owner-member of list one is receiving digests. >This was a really odd event. I'm pretty surprised to find 5 copies >happily beating each other up without checking. Could this be a build >issue (FreeBSD - I know there are reported "difficulties" here)< or does >MM not check? Are you saying that fixing the multiple qrunner/Mailman instance issue solved the missing mail problem? I'd be very surprised if that were the case. If the problem still exists, I think you need to check logs to find out what's happening. bin/list_members --regular --nomail=enabled ccm-l | wc -l will tell you to how many recipients your test posts should be sent. Also, you might do bin/list_members --regular --nomail=enabled ccm-l | grep -i missing_adr just to be sure. Then check Mailman's smtp log for an entry like Dec 20 08:39:58 2008 (30746) smtp to ccm-l for nnn recips, completed in t.ttt seconds to see if nnn is the expected number. If it isn't (taking into account that some member addresses in To: or Cc: might not be recipients because of avoid dups), then we need to determine why. If it is, you have to look at the MTA log to see what happened to the missing recipient(s). -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From brad at shub-internet.org Sat Dec 20 21:24:27 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:24:27 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <1229802873.6803.264.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87zlirxuoo.fsf@xemacs.org> <1229754874.6803.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87wsdvxhgk.fsf@xemacs.org> <1229791275.6803.177.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494D43BF.9090200@shub-internet.org> <1229802873.6803.264.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <494D547B.8050708@shub-internet.org> on 12/20/08 1:54 PM, Lindsay Haisley said: > Well I'm probably not doing as effective a job of pre-filtering as you > are at UT. And what we're doing for python.org and ntp.org can't match those numbers, either. For ntp.org, we do pretty much the same as you -- use a few RBLs up-front, and then SpamAssassin on the back-end. What I want to do for the next version of the mail system there is to pull the RBLs into policyd-weight under postfix (so that we can apply SpamAssassin-like scoring into the RBL process), and not do any direct RBLs. I'd also like to make sure that SpamAssassin is set up to run interactively. For python.org, we're already running policyd-weight plus SpamBayes. In the future, I'd like to see us pull SpamBayes into interactive mode. For both sites, I want to look at pulling in reputation scoring systems like SenderBase, and get those incorporated into the process before handing off the remainder to the content-based scanning tools. > As always, your advice and concerns are well-considered, Brad. I do > need to accept a certain amount of this stuff, consistent with the > requirement that 100% of legitimate email be delivered (and SA is far > from perfect), and because I'm a SOHO business, and a small one at that, > I can't afford dedicated analytical appliances and proprietary software > for this, most of which is outside my budget. There's doubtless more I > can do. You have a lot of options available to you, and you need to decide what you want to do and how you want to do it. We can help you with that to a degree, but there are limits to what we can do. And right now, Mailman doesn't have the best anti-spam features. That is something we want to address, but we're not there yet. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Sat Dec 20 21:35:52 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:35:52 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <494D547B.8050708@shub-internet.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87zlirxuoo.fsf@xemacs.org> <1229754874.6803.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87wsdvxhgk.fsf@xemacs.org> <1229791275.6803.177.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494D43BF.9090200@shub-internet.org> <1229802873.6803.264.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494D547B.8050708@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <1229805352.747.138.camel@vishnu.fmp.com> On Sat, 2008-12-20 at 14:24 -0600, Brad Knowles wrote: > I'd also > like to make sure that SpamAssassin is set up to run interactively. What do you mean by this. Can shell account users not interactively use spamc or spamassassin from a command prompt? -- Lindsay Haisley | "The difference between | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | a duck is that one leg | available at 512-259-1190 | is both the same" | http://pubkeys.fmp.com http://www.fmp.com | - Anonymous | From measl at mfn.org Sat Dec 20 21:56:16 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:56:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Posts from listowner address issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Dec 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote: > mailmanctl stop should have stopped the last instance started, but yes, > it isn't going to stop everything in this situation. Would a killall type of functionality be contraindicated in mailmanctl stop? > >The files referenced were nowhere to be found, so picking them apart is a > >non starter. Looks like a race condition: Does mailman not check to see > >if it's already running? > > It does unless it is forced not to. The issue is that the check is via > lock files and init scripts tend to force override of the checks on > the theory that any lock files are residue from a prior boot. We do not use -s on the init script. > >> Is delivery enabled for the owner's subscribed address on list 1? > >Also mentioned in the first post: yes. > > Actually, I don't see it in the first post at > . > In your second post at > , > I see My mistake - you are correct, 2nd post. > I checked that I was still subbed and not being caught in a > discard file. > > Perhaps "not being caught in a discard file" means to you that > Mailman's delivery is enabled, but it doesn't to me. I guess the compund "checked that I was still subbed [implicitly == checked for nomail, etc]" and "not being caught in a discard file" does equal delivery enabled when I had mentioned I was the only one not receiving posts [ie, delivery is globally enabled if Im the only one not getting them, and locally enabled as I am subbed and not blocked or discarded]". Clearly, the amount of verbiage that caveat required illustrates the density of my assumption > > Actually, another possibility is that the owner-member of list one is > receiving digests. No. Went there, looked at it. > >This was a really odd event. I'm pretty surprised to find 5 copies > >happily beating each other up without checking. Could this be a build > >issue (FreeBSD - I know there are reported "difficulties" here)< or does > >MM not check? > > > Are you saying that fixing the multiple qrunner/Mailman instance issue > solved the missing mail problem? I'd be very surprised if that were > the case. Yes. It appears to have completely resolved it. > If the problem still exists, I think you need to check logs to find out > what's happening. > > bin/list_members --regular --nomail=enabled ccm-l | wc -l this returned the correct # of subscribers +/- > will tell you to how many recipients your test posts should be sent. > > Also, you might do > > bin/list_members --regular --nomail=enabled ccm-l | grep -i missing_adr Returns a null > just to be sure. > > Then check Mailman's smtp log for an entry like > > Dec 20 08:39:58 2008 (30746) smtp to ccm-l for nnn recips, > completed in t.ttt seconds Dec 20 05:23:34 2008 (1368) smtp to ccm-l for 1 recips, completed in 0.611 seconds Dec 20 06:35:59 2008 (1368) <49550272967245C1A49355A8953D0437 at PANDESK> smtp to med-jokes for 157 recips, completed in 23.833 seconds smtp to med-events for 103 recips, completed in 14.170 seconds Dec 20 12:11:05 2008 (5688) smtp to med-jokes for 157 recips, completed in 11.838 seconds Dec 20 12:11:28 2008 (5688) <68fd2c7c0812200550q32808396vf875b6ec66f9c02 at mail.gmail.com> smtp to med-jokes for 156 recips, completed in 22.845 seconds 157==correct, but one is unreachable right now due to cable cut. Dec 20 12:11:30 2008 (5688) smtp to med-jokes for 1 recips, completed in 1.341 seconds Dec 20 12:11:31 2008 (5688) smtp to med-jokes for 1 recips, completed in 1.532 seconds Dec 20 12:11:33 2008 (5688) smtp to med-jokes for 1 recips, completed in 1.618 seconds Dec 20 12:12:03 2008 (5688) smtp to med-jokes for 1 recips, completed in 0.603 seconds Dec 20 12:12:04 2008 (5688) smtp to med-jokes for 1 recips, completed in 0.551 seconds < note that there are zero entries for CCM-L up to this point, despite archives to the contrary, and replies which show distribution to users [but not to poor old me :-(] > Dec 20 12:13:07 2008 (5688) smtp to ccm-l for 668 recips, completed in 45.689 seconds 668==correct Dec 20 12:13:36 2008 (5688) smtp to gasnet for 266 recips, completed in 28.416 seconds 266==correct Dec 20 12:13:56 2008 (5688) smtp to med-jokes for 158 recips, completed in 19.564 seconds Dec 20 12:14:07 2008 (5688) smtp to med-events for 103 recips, completed in 11.031 seconds Dec 20 12:15:29 2008 (5688) smtp to med-jokes for 1 recips, completed in 0.446 seconds Dec 20 12:21:38 2008 (5688) smtp to ccm-l for 1 recips, completed in 0.509 seconds Dec 20 12:21:38 2008 (5688) smtp to ccm-l for 1 recips, completed in 0.463 seconds Dec 20 12:21:40 2008 (5688) smtp to ccm-l for 1 recips, completed in 0.590 seconds Dec 20 12:26:13 2008 (5688) <682DCAEA23254A23B17EA3B309C6BBA6 at GJRnx7400> smtp to med-events for 103 recips, completed in 8.432 seconds Dec 20 12:26:24 2008 (5688) <682DCAEA23254A23B17EA3B309C6BBA6 at GJRnx7400> smtp to med-events for 103 recips, completed in 10.948 seconds Dec 20 12:31:27 2008 (5688) smtp to med-events for 103 recips, completed in 7.992 seconds Dec 20 12:44:17 2008 (5688) <173C96EE372441569D7E1B7EB465AD1C at GJRnx7400> smtp to med-events for 103 recips, completed in 7.706 seconds Dec 20 12:45:49 2008 (5688) <6DB8B453DC7A4B9C9FCCC186C9FEA514 at GJRnx7400> smtp to med-jokes for 158 recips, completed in 20.098 seconds Dec 20 12:53:32 2008 (5688) <01c962dc$9f32bf00$60615051 at mailman-owner> smtp to mailman for 1 recips, completed in 0.790 seconds Dec 20 12:54:52 2008 (5688) smtp to ccm-l for 668 recips, completed in 39.097 seconds Etc. all seems pretty normal right now. > have to look at the MTA log to see what happened to the missing > recipient(s). I did that (but did not mention it, as...), but it never made it to the MTA for my address. WTH? I can think of no possible way for just one address of no special significance other that it is also listowner to archive as if delivered, but never to make it to the MTA or even to be logged by mailman... -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From mark at msapiro.net Sun Dec 21 00:13:30 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:13:30 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Posts from listowner address issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: J.A. Terranson wrote: > >On Sat, 20 Dec 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote: > >> mailmanctl stop should have stopped the last instance started, but yes, >> it isn't going to stop everything in this situation. > >Would a killall type of functionality be contraindicated in mailmanctl >stop? It would have to know what processes to kill. The masters (mailmanctl processes) know which runners they started, but when you signal a master with bin/mailmanctl whatever, the specific master that get's signaled is the one who's PID is in the data/master-qrunner.pid file in *this one's* var_prefix. It could detect in a possibly OS dependant way that there are other masters running, but it can't know that they aren't from other disjoint Mailman instances on the same server, so it doesn't know if they should be SIGTERMd or not. When a "duplicate" mailmanctl is started in a way that overrides the locks (or the script removes the locks first - I've seen scripts like that), it overwrites the data/master-qrunner.pid file and the first PID is lost. I suppose data/master-qrunner.pid could be converted to a stack of PIDs, but that's just a way of recovering from a situation that shouldn't occur in the first place. Actually, I think there is an issue in that mailmanctl -s start is only supposed to ignore the lock if it was created by a PID which is no longer running, and I'm not sure that code is correct. I have to look at it some more. >> >The files referenced were nowhere to be found, so picking them apart is a >> >non starter. Looks like a race condition: Does mailman not check to see >> >if it's already running? >> >> It does unless it is forced not to. The issue is that the check is via >> lock files and init scripts tend to force override of the checks on >> the theory that any lock files are residue from a prior boot. > >We do not use -s on the init script. How did 5 sets of mailmanctl and qrunners get started? Have you figured out how that happened? >> Are you saying that fixing the multiple qrunner/Mailman instance issue >> solved the missing mail problem? I'd be very surprised if that were >> the case. > >Yes. It appears to have completely resolved it. Well, as I said I'm surprised. I'm glad it is resolved, but I'm at a loss to explain why having multiple runners serving the same queue entries would cause non-delivery of a post to a subset of the list members. Apparently it either did or there was some other issue that was fixed by stopping everything and restarting. >> Also, you might do >> >> bin/list_members --regular --nomail=enabled ccm-l | grep -i missing_adr > >Returns a null Perhaps you misunderstood. 'missing_adr' was supposed to be the address (yours) that wasn't being delivered. If it was that in the above, that means the address is not a regular member with delivery enabled so it shouldn't be receiving posts. >> just to be sure. >> >> Then check Mailman's smtp log for an entry like >> >> Dec 20 08:39:58 2008 (30746) smtp to ccm-l for nnn recips, >> completed in t.ttt seconds > > > >Dec 20 05:23:34 2008 (1368) >smtp to ccm-l for 1 recips, completed in 0.611 seconds This is a Mailman generated notification of some kind. >Dec 20 06:35:59 2008 (1368) <49550272967245C1A49355A8953D0437 at PANDESK> >smtp to med-jokes for 157 recips, completed in 23.833 seconds > > > >mailman> > >smtp to med-events for 103 recips, completed in 14.170 seconds >Dec 20 12:11:05 2008 (5688) smtp to >med-jokes for 157 recips, completed in 11.838 seconds >Dec 20 12:11:28 2008 (5688) ><68fd2c7c0812200550q32808396vf875b6ec66f9c02 at mail.gmail.com> smtp to >med-jokes for 156 recips, completed in 22.845 seconds > >157==correct, but one is unreachable right now due to cable cut. More likely, the post was sent by Mailman to all 157 members and the <68fd2c7c0812200550q32808396vf875b6ec66f9c02 at mail.gmail.com> post was a reply that had the OP in To: or Cc: so Mailman didn't send to that address and only sent to the other 156. The unreachable address should be delivered by Mailman to the MTA and only detected by the MTA when it attempts delivery. If the MTA is actually checking whether the address is deliverable during Mailman's SMTP to the MTA, Mailman's performance will suffer greatly. Plus, there would be something for this address in Mailman's smtp-failure log. >Dec 20 12:11:30 2008 (5688) > smtp to med-jokes for 1 >recips, completed in 1.341 seconds >Dec 20 12:11:31 2008 (5688) > smtp to med-jokes for 1 >recips, completed in 1.532 seconds >Dec 20 12:11:33 2008 (5688) > smtp to med-jokes for 1 >recips, completed in 1.618 seconds >Dec 20 12:12:03 2008 (5688) > smtp to med-jokes for 1 >recips, completed in 0.603 seconds >Dec 20 12:12:04 2008 (5688) > smtp to med-jokes for 1 >recips, completed in 0.551 seconds These 5 are all Mailman notices. >< note that there are zero entries for CCM-L up to this point, despite >archives to the contrary, and replies which show distribution to users >[but not to poor old me :-(] > This says there was some problem with OutgoingRunner. I don't know what it would be, but if it is operating correctly, it will write the smtp log and the post log for every post it processes. Presumably it was sending posts because some people were receiving them (It seems unlikely that the list replies would all have come in response to off-list Ccs). But if it is sending posts and not logging them, it's messed up somehow. I suppose it could be due to a race condition between multiple runners even though I don't understand exactly how, but why just one list? > >Etc. all seems pretty normal right now. > >> have to look at the MTA log to see what happened to the missing >> recipient(s). > >I did that (but did not mention it, as...), but it never made it to the >MTA for my address. > >WTH? I can think of no possible way for just one address of no special >significance other that it is also listowner to archive as if delivered, >but never to make it to the MTA or even to be logged by mailman... I'm equally mystified. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From opensource at unixoses.com Sun Dec 21 00:05:03 2008 From: opensource at unixoses.com (Paul) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 18:05:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Upgrading rpm mailman from mailman source Message-ID: <2578.192.168.103.1.1229814303.squirrel@outsideventure.com> I tried yesterday unsuccessfully from upgrade mailman-2.1.5.1-34.rhel4.6 on Centos 4 to the latest 2.1.11 from sourceforge. When I ran "configure" it said I needed to install Python from source or install the Python-devel package, so I installed the python-devel. # yum -y install python-devel Then "configure" said my mailman package path was not in "/usr/local/mailman", which it is not, it is in "/usr/lib/mailman". So, within the unpackaged mailman 2.1.11 dir, I did a global replace to put my path in there: # perl -pi -e 's/usr\/local\/mailman/usr\/lib\/mailman/g' `find ./ -type f` Then "configure" ran successfully, then ran "make", then "make install". All seemed to go well. I did "check_perms" and fixed permissions. started up mailman "service mailman start", and all seemed to be running fine, but now none of my lists showed "lists_lists". My "mm_cfg.py" was untouched. Being in a hurry because I didn't alert any of the lists members of downtime, I freaked out and restored my system. Luckily I just did a full backup of my LVM, so booted up via live CD and restored the LVM from the dump file and was back online. Is there anything special to do when updating from source? I've usually done it from RPM packages. Any pointers? Thanks. From brad at shub-internet.org Sun Dec 21 00:55:47 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 17:55:47 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <1229805352.747.138.camel@vishnu.fmp.com> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87zlirxuoo.fsf@xemacs.org> <1229754874.6803.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87wsdvxhgk.fsf@xemacs.org> <1229791275.6803.177.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494D43BF.9090200@shub-internet.org> <1229802873.6803.264.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494D547B.8050708@shub-internet.org> <1229805352.747.138.camel@vishnu.fmp.com> Message-ID: <494D8603.20301@shub-internet.org> on 12/20/08 2:35 PM, Lindsay Haisley said: > What do you mean by this. Can shell account users not interactively use > spamc or spamassassin from a command prompt? By interactive, I mean that SpamAssassin (or SpamBayes) would be executed before we give the sender a "250 Ok" for the message. That would allow us to reject stuff that gets a high spam score instead of dropping it. We don't have any shell users on either of these domains. Well, at least we don't have any that get their mail on these systems, all mail is forwarded elsewhere and we don't provide any POP3 or IMAP services. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From mark at msapiro.net Sun Dec 21 01:17:23 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 16:17:23 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Upgrading rpm mailman from mailman source In-Reply-To: <2578.192.168.103.1.1229814303.squirrel@outsideventure.com> Message-ID: Paul wrote: >I tried yesterday unsuccessfully from upgrade mailman-2.1.5.1-34.rhel4.6 >on Centos 4 to the latest 2.1.11 from sourceforge. > >When I ran "configure" it said I needed to install Python from source or >install the Python-devel package, so I installed the python-devel. > ># yum -y install python-devel Good. >Then "configure" said my mailman package path was not in >"/usr/local/mailman", which it is not, it is in "/usr/lib/mailman". > >So, within the unpackaged mailman 2.1.11 dir, I did a global replace to >put my path in there: > ># perl -pi -e 's/usr\/local\/mailman/usr\/lib\/mailman/g' `find ./ -type f` This is probably insufficient and definitely wrong. First, if ALL of your existing Mailman is in /usr/lib/mailman, you should be able to successfully configure with ./configure --prefix=/usr/lib/mailman (plus your other configure options like --with-mail-gid group name mail programs run as --with-cgi-gid group name CGI programs run as --with-mailhost specify the hostname part for outgoing email --with-urlhost specify the hostname part of urls ) >Then "configure" ran successfully, then ran "make", then "make install". >All seemed to go well. I did "check_perms" and fixed permissions. started >up mailman "service mailman start", and all seemed to be running fine, but >now none of my lists showed "lists_lists". My "mm_cfg.py" was untouched. >Being in a hurry because I didn't alert any of the lists members of >downtime, I freaked out and restored my system. Luckily I just did a full >backup of my LVM, so booted up via live CD and restored the LVM from the >dump file and was back online. > >Is there anything special to do when updating from source? I've usually >done it from RPM packages. Any pointers? Thanks. The most likely explanation is your existing installation is RedHats FHS compliant Mailman, and various parts of it are all over the place. See . If this is the case, you could try to apply the patch attached to that post before running configure, but it may not apply to 2.1.11 since it's against a 2.1.5 base. I wouldn't recommend that approach. Assuming you are not running SELinux, I suggest you start over with a fresh unpack of the 2.1.11 tarball and configure with the options --prefix=/usr/lib/mailman --with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman in addition to any others you might need. Then allow some time for the next steps. Stop Mailman Create /var/lib/mailman/data/ and /var/lib/mailman/qfiles/ if necessary. Move /etc/mailman/* to /var/lib/mailman/data/ Stop the MTA If you are using Postfix and automatic alias generation for Postfix, update alias_maps and if applicable, virtual_alias_maps in Postfix's main.cf to point to the new locations in /var/lib/mailman/data/. Move /var/spool/mailman/* to /var/lib/mailman/qfiles/ make install Start the MTA Start Mailman If you are running SELinux, you will either have to stick with the current locations for everything and use RedHat's patch or revise your security policies. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Sun Dec 21 01:36:31 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 18:36:31 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <494D8603.20301@shub-internet.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87zlirxuoo.fsf@xemacs.org> <1229754874.6803.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87wsdvxhgk.fsf@xemacs.org> <1229791275.6803.177.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494D43BF.9090200@shub-internet.org> <1229802873.6803.264.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494D547B.8050708@shub-internet.org> <1229805352.747.138.camel@vishnu.fmp.com> <494D8603.20301@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <1229819791.747.154.camel@vishnu.fmp.com> On Sat, 2008-12-20 at 17:55 -0600, Brad Knowles wrote: > By interactive, I mean that SpamAssassin (or SpamBayes) would be > executed before we give the sender a "250 Ok" for the message. That > would allow us to reject stuff that gets a high spam score instead of > dropping it. Oh, Ok. Thanks. I just didn't understand the terminology. -- Lindsay Haisley | "It is better to bite | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | a single cannibal than | available at 512-259-1190 | to curse the doggies" | http://pubkeys.fmp.com http://www.fmp.com | -- John Day | From faisalanif at hotmail.com Sun Dec 21 03:09:14 2008 From: faisalanif at hotmail.com (faisal anif) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 04:09:14 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Users] bounced addresses stays there Message-ID: hi, I have the following settings: bounce_score_threshold: 2.0 bounce_info_stale_after: 7 bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings: 0 - for immediate removal bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings_interval: 7 then I notice that the addresses that have delivery disabled for bounce reason is still in the members list and not completely removed from the list .. which is not good becasue I want them totally removed and know the exact number of active members .. how can I do that? thanks.. _________________________________________________________________ News, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Get it now! http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx From mark at msapiro.net Sun Dec 21 07:49:51 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 22:49:51 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] bounced addresses stays there In-Reply-To: Message-ID: faisal anif wrote: > >I have the following settings: > >bounce_score_threshold: 2.0 >bounce_info_stale_after: 7 >bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings: 0 - for immediate removal >bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings_interval: 7 > >then I notice that the addresses that have delivery disabled for bounce reason is still in the members list and not completely removed from the list .. which is not good becasue I want them totally removed and know the exact number of active members .. > >how can I do that? The settings you have will do that. If you recently reduced bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings to 0 from some other number, those members whose delivery was disabled by bounce at the time of the reduction will still get the number of warnings they were set to get when their delivery was disabled before they are removed. Also, cron/disabled has to be run in order to send the warnings and ultimately remove the members. If you don't want to wait for these to be automatically removed, you can always remove them via the admin interface or if you have command line access, do bin/list_members -n bybounce LISTNAME | bin/remove_members -f - LISTNAME which will remove all members with delivery disabled by bounce. In any case any members who in the future bounce on two out of seven days will be immediately removed. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From measl at mfn.org Sun Dec 21 16:53:08 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 09:53:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest Format Change: Possible? Message-ID: Greetings, is it possibe to tar digest and turn this: | Message: 4 | Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:12:18 -0600 (CST) | From: "J.A. Terranson" | Subject: [GasNet] Testing - Please Ignore. | To: ccm-l at ccm-l.org, med-events at ccm-l.org, med-jokes at ccm-l.org, | gasnet at ccm-l.org | Message-ID: | Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII into this: | Message: 4 | Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:12:18 -0600 (CST) | From: "J.A. Terranson" | Subject: [GasNet] Testing - Please Ignore. ? Possible????? Thanks, //Alif From mark at msapiro.net Sun Dec 21 17:46:43 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 08:46:43 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest Format Change: Possible? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: J.A. Terranson wrote: > >Greetings, is it possibe to tar digest and >turn this: > >| Message: 4 >| Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:12:18 -0600 (CST) >| From: "J.A. Terranson" >| Subject: [GasNet] Testing - Please Ignore. >| To: ccm-l at ccm-l.org, med-events at ccm-l.org, med-jokes at ccm-l.org, >| gasnet at ccm-l.org >| Message-ID: >| Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > >into this: > >| Message: 4 >| Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:12:18 -0600 (CST) >| From: "J.A. Terranson" >| Subject: [GasNet] Testing - Please Ignore. > >? You can control which headers appear in digest messages. See the settings for MIME_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS and PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS in Defaults.py and either copy one or both to mm_cfg.py and make the changes there or make the changes programmatically in mm_cfg.py, e.g. PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('To') PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('Message-ID') PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('Content-Type') Note that the entries in MIME_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS and PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS are not case sensitive, but the values in statements like PLAIN_DIGEST_KEEP_HEADERS.remove('To') must match the case of the value to be removed. Also note that for the plain (RFC 1153) format digest, the RFC specifies that the headers 'Date', 'From', 'To', 'Cc', 'Subject', 'Message-ID' and 'Keywords' should all be retained in the digest if they appeared in the original message. Thus, removing To: and Message-ID: will make a non-compliant digest if you care about that. I don't really understand what you would want in a 'tar' digest. Do you mean a tarball containing each message as a separate file. That's essentially what the MIME format digest is now except each message is a MIME part rather than a file, but some MUAs will treat them as files. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From stephen at xemacs.org Mon Dec 22 03:25:40 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:25:40 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <1229791275.6803.177.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87zlirxuoo.fsf@xemacs.org> <1229754874.6803.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87wsdvxhgk.fsf@xemacs.org> <1229791275.6803.177.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <87skohx7x7.fsf@xemacs.org> Lindsay Haisley writes: > On Sat, 2008-12-20 at 19:35 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > > Courier doesn't need milters. Maildrop can be run in what's called > > > "embedded mode" which is effectively the same thing. > > x` > > No, it's not the same, not for the purpose of deciding whether > > *Courier* needs milters. > > A "milter" is just an MTA component/plugin that reflects user-space > (outside the MTA) decisions on spam/viruses back to the SMTP dialog so > that a receiving server can reject an email for cause without generating > a backscatter email to the envelope sender. Maildrop in embedded mode > _is_ a milter That's not what you wrote above; you wrote "effectively" which can mean *anything*, and usually carries connotations of "for the present purpose". You've made it quite plain that your "present purpose" is different from those of most of the folks trying to advise you. I'm finding it really hard to understand what you are trying to say throughout this thread, because you don't answer questions as phrased, but rather use your own wording which you know is equivalent (presumably), but the rest of us have to assume you don't know what you're talking about because you don't use the accepted jargon. I'm tired of fighting the impedence mismatch, and will stop doing so, effective immediately. From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Mon Dec 22 04:59:50 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:59:50 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam to list-owner In-Reply-To: <87skohx7x7.fsf@xemacs.org> References: <20081219001518.GA26004@rectangular.com> <494B556B.5030102@shub-internet.org> <1229704670.6656.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BD877.4060005@shub-internet.org> <1229709555.6656.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <494BE35E.2000705@shub-internet.org> <1229747482.6803.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87zlirxuoo.fsf@xemacs.org> <1229754874.6803.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87wsdvxhgk.fsf@xemacs.org> <1229791275.6803.177.camel@localhost.localdomain> <87skohx7x7.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: <1229918390.6606.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-12-22 at 11:25 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Lindsay Haisley writes: > > On Sat, 2008-12-20 at 19:35 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > > > Courier doesn't need milters. Maildrop can be run in what's called > > > > "embedded mode" which is effectively the same thing. > > > x` > > > No, it's not the same, not for the purpose of deciding whether > > > *Courier* needs milters. > > > > A "milter" is just an MTA component/plugin that reflects user-space > > (outside the MTA) decisions on spam/viruses back to the SMTP dialog so > > that a receiving server can reject an email for cause without generating > > a backscatter email to the envelope sender. Maildrop in embedded mode > > _is_ a milter > > That's not what you wrote above; you wrote "effectively" which can > mean *anything*, and usually carries connotations of "for the present > purpose". You've made it quite plain that your "present purpose" is > different from those of most of the folks trying to advise you. > > I'm finding it really hard to understand what you are trying to say > throughout this thread, because you don't answer questions as phrased, > but rather use your own wording which you know is equivalent > (presumably), but the rest of us have to assume you don't know what > you're talking about because you don't use the accepted jargon. > > I'm tired of fighting the impedence mismatch, and will stop doing so, > effective immediately. Well Stephen, you can weight out if you wish, as we probably all ought to on this thread, but just because I don't use "accepted jargon" doesn't mean that I don't know what I'm talking about. It simply means that whatever I've learned about dealing with email, spam, and email transport, which is not inconsiderable, may not have been learned from the same sources you learned from. I've come to have a great deal of respect for Sam Varshavchik and for Courier, the MTA which he developed and very actively, capapably and conscientiously supports. It's a "minority" MTA, not considered mainstream, but I have yet to discover any important capabilities which it doesn't support, not to mention that it's extremely well crafted. If you have any doubts, don't post them here. Go and check out Courier and then email me personally and I'll be happy to discuss it with you. My understanding of what a "milter" is depends simply on my reading of the article at . I don't keep up with sysadmin jargon, and had not previously been aware of the term. I only walk the walk and don't spend a lot of time talking the talk, Stephen, although the concepts behind the term are quite familiar since I've been working with email as an admin for 15 years. I'll also be pleased to eat an serving of crow here, especially for anyone familiar with Courier. Milter-type support in Courier isn't supported by Maildrop in embedded mode, which functions solely in the delivery mode. I was 100% off base in this. It's best supported by the courierfilter facility, which is capable of providing analytical filter capabilities _during_ an SMTP session prior to the final acceptance of an email. IMHO, this discussion has gone OT for this list and I'd like to conclude it. I would like to thank you, Brad, J.A. Terranson and others who've given me some insights and knowledge, and the impetus to start to implement pre-filtering (what you might call "milter" capabilities) in Courier on my servers so as to reject at the SMTP level any inbound email with a SpamAssassin spam score of 10 or more. Season's greetings, and ciao, -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | if you let it" | available at 512-259-1190 | (The Roadie) | http://pubkeys.fmp.com http://www.fmp.com | | From ak at axet.ru Sun Dec 21 20:17:08 2008 From: ak at axet.ru (Alexey Kuznetsov) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:17:08 +0300 Subject: [Mailman-Users] rss support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello! Why GNU mailing lists do not have rss support? Would be nice to have: - threads rss - threads+messages rss - user own threads/messages rss From arogozin at comcast.net Mon Dec 22 00:35:33 2008 From: arogozin at comcast.net (Alex) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:35:33 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Centos + Blue Quartz question - virtual site issue. Message-ID: <68F0624BC1B8434B9BC66B670FFAA3F0@fester> I'm trying to set up Mailman on NuOnce Centos+Blue Quartz site, running into a problem - all emails to the aliases come back as "unknown user". Invitation to join works fine; replying to confirm results in membership. my understanding is that aliases are not being read - how do i fix this one? have successfully set up mailman on centos 5.2 just to see it work - works great! ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to lists.fergula.com.: >>> DATA <<< 553 5.3.0 ... No such user here 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown <<< 503 5.0.0 Need RCPT (recipient) Final-Recipient: RFC822; testeq-list at lists.fergula.com Action: failed Status: 5.3.0 Remote-MTA: DNS; lists.fergula.com Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 553 5.3.0 ... No such user here Last-Attempt-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:32:22 -0500 _________ ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to mail.fergula.com.: >>> DATA <<< 553 5.3.0 ... No such user here 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown <<< 503 5.0.0 Need RCPT (recipient) Final-Recipient: RFC822; testeq-list-owner at lists.fergula.com Action: failed Status: 5.3.0 Remote-MTA: DNS; mail.fergula.com Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 553 5.3.0 ... No such user here Last-Attempt-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 05:26:47 -0500 From webmaster at stjohns.org.au Sun Dec 21 02:34:37 2008 From: webmaster at stjohns.org.au (St John's Webmaster) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:34:37 +1100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] deleted admins and attachments wouldn't work. In-Reply-To: <493C819A.1050409@shub-internet.org> References: <493C819A.1050409@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <1C518861-9705-4AC6-9D69-F2E13E5D3BE4@stjohns.org.au> Hi again, I've been unable to fix the issue where attachments to all lists are not getting through, even though the specific content filtering options int he lists are not turned on. Where would I start looking for the answers to a global scrub attachemnets. They exist in the moderation request sent to the owners/moderators, but do not exist when the list members get the message. The root password was altered, and no rootkits were found. i appreciate your help. Kind Regards, Patrick Helm On 08/12/2008, at 1:08 PM, Brad Knowles wrote: > on 12/6/08 5:29 PM, St John's Webmaster said: > >> One day last week, mailman reset the overarching admin password, >> removed certain people from lists as admins, and suddenly sent out >> password reminders. And, it wouldn't send out lists attachments. >> The attachments exits when the moderator sees the message, but are >> scrubbed after that. No content filtering is active. > > Mailman would not just do this on it's own. Something else had to > happen, and I'm guessing it was probably someone restoring data from > a backup that wiped out your current production environment. > > Nothing that you're talking about could possibly happen with the > standard version of Mailman with the standard cron jobs. > >> 2.1.11cp2 > > If you're running cPanel, please take a look at FAQ 6.11 at >. > > You need to talk to your provider or cPanel, to see what they must > have done to you. > > -- > Brad Knowles > LinkedIn Profile: From webmaster at stjohns.org.au Sun Dec 21 03:52:19 2008 From: webmaster at stjohns.org.au (St John's Webmaster) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:52:19 +1100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] deleted admins and attachments wouldn't work. In-Reply-To: <493C819A.1050409@shub-internet.org> References: <493C819A.1050409@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <94B20F4C-F9B0-40C4-BC35-B12BB6340FAF@stjohns.org.au> G'Day. I've now had a look in the config.pck files and i have a whole lot of rubbish namely the friend at public.com etc... i'm really unsure what the proper contents of this should be.. as someone said they think i was previously hacked. do things look right? The 'message-id: relay.comanche.denmark.eu' makes me suspicious. Patrick }q^A(U^Psend_welcome_msgq^BK^@U moderatorq^C]q^DU^Nanonymous_listq^EI00 U advertisedq^FK^@U^Madministriviaq^GI01 U^Runsubscribe_policyq^HK^@U^Oone_last_digestq }q U ^ Sdigest_last_sent_atq ^KK^@U^Ndigest_membersq^L}q^MU^Oscrub_nondigestq^NI00 U ^ Opass_mime_typesq ^ O ]q ^ PU ^ Kwelcome_msgq ^ QU ^ @U ^ Ogateway_to_newsq ^RK^@U^Ntopics_enabledq^SK^@U^Uadmin_notify_mchangesq^TI00 U ^ Xgeneric_nonmember_actionq ^UK^AU^Vadmin_member_chunksizeq^VK^^U^Waccept_these_nonmembersq^W]q^XU^Xtim.vernum at macquarie.comq ^YaU^Wdi$ U^Wbounce_info_stale_afterq^\J^?: ^@U^Zfilter_filename_extensionsq^]]q^^(U^Cexeq^_U^Cbatq U^Ccmdq! U^Ccomq"U^Cpifq#U^Cscrq$U^Cvb$ U ^ Plinked_newsgroupq:U ^@U^Nsend_remindersq;K^@U^Uregular_include_listsq<]q=U passwordsq>}q?U^Vpatrick.helm at gmail.comq @U^Hseuzfufaq$ You have elected to receive messages from the %(real_name)s list in digest format' Please visit %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s if you wish to modify your settings ----------------------------------------------- qIU^KdescriptionqJU^@U^Wbounce_matching_headersqKU^? # Lines that *start* with a '#' are comments. to: friend at public.com message-id: relay.comanche.denmark.eu from: list at listme.com from : .*@uplinkpro .comqLU^Vbounce_score_thresholdqMG@^T^@^@^@^@^@^@U^MnondigestableqNI01 U^Qautorespond_adminqOK^@U^^bounce_notify_owner_on_removalqPI01 U ^ Xpass_filename_extensionsqQ ]qRU ^ Yautoresponse_request_textqSU ^@U^Qobscure_addressesqTK^AU^Qfilter_mime_typesqU]qV(U^Ltext/x-vcardqW$ msg_footerqhU?_______________________________________________ This is a message from the %(real_name)s mailing list at %(host_name)s Please visit %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s if you wish to modify your settingsqiU^Rpreferred_languageqjU^Benq$ msg_headerqmU ^ @U ^ Pmax_message_sizeqnK (U^Xarchive_volume_frequencyqoK^AU^Radmin_immed_notifyqpI01 U^Onext_request_idqqK^TU^DinfoqrU^@U bounce_you_are_disabled_warningsqsK^CU^Nprivate_rosterqtK^BU^ \require_explicit_destinationquK^AU$ U ^ Ydefault_member_moderationqxK ^ AU ^ Eownerqy ]qzU^Vpatrick.helm at gmail.comq{aU^Hban_listq|]q}U^Mumbrella_listq~I00 U^Xmember_moderation_noticeq^? U^@U)bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings_intervalq^?J^?: ^@U^Mdigest_footerq^?U^@U^Pnext_post_numberq^$ U^Nsubject_prefixq^?X^G^@^@^@[test] q^?U^Fvolumeq^? K^AU^Yconvert_html_to_plaintextq^?I01 U^Vumbrella_member_suffixq^?U^F-ownerq^?U^Savailable_languagesq^?]q^? hkaU^Rnext_digest_numberq^?K^AU^Tautorespond_postingsq^?K^@U^Uen$ U^Kgoodbye_msgq?U^@U^Vtopics_bodylines_limitq?K^EU^Garchiveq?I01 U^Nfilter_contentq?K^@U usernamesq?}q?U^Vpatrick.helm at gmail.comq?X^L^@^@^@Patrick Helmq?sU emergencyq?K^@U^Lmod_passwordq?U(ca6b$ U nntp_hostq?U^@U^Wnews_prefix_subject_tooq? K^AU^Qbounce_processingq?I01 U^Oarchive_privateq?K^AU^Preply_to_addressq?U^@U^Luser_optionsq?}q? hbM^?^AsU^Winclude_rfc2369_headersq?K^AU^Uforward_auto_discardsq?K > > Hi again, > > I've been unable to fix the issue where attachments to all lists are > not getting through, even though the specific content filtering > options int he lists are not turned on. Where would I start looking > for the answers to a global scrub attachemnets. > > They exist in the moderation request sent to the owners/moderators, > but do not exist when the list members get the message. > > The root password was altered, and no rootkits were found. i > appreciate your help. > > Kind Regards, > Patrick Helm On 08/12/2008, at 1:08 PM, Brad Knowles wrote: > on 12/6/08 5:29 PM, St John's Webmaster said: > >> One day last week, mailman reset the overarching admin password, >> removed certain people from lists as admins, and suddenly sent out >> password reminders. And, it wouldn't send out lists attachments. >> The attachments exits when the moderator sees the message, but are >> scrubbed after that. No content filtering is active. > > Mailman would not just do this on it's own. Something else had to > happen, and I'm guessing it was probably someone restoring data from > a backup that wiped out your current production environment. > > Nothing that you're talking about could possibly happen with the > standard version of Mailman with the standard cron jobs. > >> 2.1.11cp2 > > If you're running cPanel, please take a look at FAQ 6.11 at >. > > You need to talk to your provider or cPanel, to see what they must > have done to you. > > -- > Brad Knowles > LinkedIn Profile: From brad at shub-internet.org Mon Dec 22 07:40:43 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 00:40:43 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] rss support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <494F366B.80709@shub-internet.org> on 12/21/08 1:17 PM, Alexey Kuznetsov said: > Why GNU mailing lists do not have rss support? Would be nice to have: > - threads rss > - threads+messages rss > - user own threads/messages rss For one thing, there are plenty of web-to-RSS services out there. You could very easily just subscribe to one of those. For another, since Mailman is an open source project which none of us get paid to develop or support, you're welcome to create your own RSS module and upload the patch (see for information on how to develop with Bazar and Launchpad). Otherwise, you can try putting this on the wishlist for Mailman3 (see ), and we might be able to add this feature at some point in time in the future. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From brad at shub-internet.org Mon Dec 22 07:43:09 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 00:43:09 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Centos + Blue Quartz question - virtual site issue. In-Reply-To: <68F0624BC1B8434B9BC66B670FFAA3F0@fester> References: <68F0624BC1B8434B9BC66B670FFAA3F0@fester> Message-ID: <494F36FD.9070300@shub-internet.org> on 12/21/08 5:35 PM, Alex said: > I'm trying to set up Mailman on NuOnce Centos+Blue Quartz site, running > into a problem - all emails to the aliases come back as "unknown user". Clearly, your aliases aren't set up correctly. Either you did not complete the Mailman installation process using our instructions (see ), or you're installing from a binary package created by someone else and you may not have completed their installation instructions, or maybe their installation process is incomplete. If you're using a binary package from someone else, you need to go to the developers of that package and get further support from them. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From brad at shub-internet.org Mon Dec 22 07:46:50 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 00:46:50 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] deleted admins and attachments wouldn't work. In-Reply-To: <1C518861-9705-4AC6-9D69-F2E13E5D3BE4@stjohns.org.au> References: <493C819A.1050409@shub-internet.org> <1C518861-9705-4AC6-9D69-F2E13E5D3BE4@stjohns.org.au> Message-ID: <494F37DA.7080400@shub-internet.org> on 12/20/08 7:34 PM, St John's Webmaster said: > I've been unable to fix the issue where attachments to all lists are not > getting through, even though the specific content filtering options int > he lists are not turned on. Where would I start looking for the answers > to a global scrub attachemnets. Look for DEFAULT_SCRUB_NONDIGEST in your mm_cfg.py file, and whether or not the list(s) in question are configured to scrub non-digests (that would be in the web admin interface, under "Non-digest options"). You should also check out the other "SCRUB" configuration options in mm_cfg.py and Defaults.py. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From brad at shub-internet.org Mon Dec 22 07:51:28 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 00:51:28 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] deleted admins and attachments wouldn't work. In-Reply-To: <94B20F4C-F9B0-40C4-BC35-B12BB6340FAF@stjohns.org.au> References: <493C819A.1050409@shub-internet.org> <94B20F4C-F9B0-40C4-BC35-B12BB6340FAF@stjohns.org.au> Message-ID: <494F38F0.2000202@shub-internet.org> on 12/20/08 8:52 PM, St John's Webmaster said: > I've now had a look in the config.pck files and i have a whole lot of > rubbish namely the friend at public.com etc... i'm really unsure what the > proper contents of this should be.. as someone said they think i was > previously hacked. do things look right? The 'message-id: > relay.comanche.denmark.eu' makes me suspicious. Just doing a "strings" on that file won't show you a whole lot that is actually useful. Try doing a "dumpdb" first. The thing is that "strings" will just pull out anything it thinks might potentially be human readable, whereas "dumpdb" understands the binary "pickle" format and can actually parse the data structures on disk and then provide the output in a format that actually makes some sense. If "dumpdb" were to die while trying to parse the file (which is rare, but I've seen it happen), that's when you would fall back on "strings". -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From brad at shub-internet.org Mon Dec 22 08:26:36 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 01:26:36 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Centos + Blue Quartz question - virtual site issue. In-Reply-To: <761D13E7BF244CE2A72E9EAD9D7CD0A0@fester> References: <68F0624BC1B8434B9BC66B670FFAA3F0@fester> <494F36FD.9070300@shub-internet.org> <761D13E7BF244CE2A72E9EAD9D7CD0A0@fester> Message-ID: <494F412C.8070404@shub-internet.org> on 12/22/08 1:18 AM, Alex said: > package was downloaded by webmin from YUM, correct one for OS. I have > set up mailman with great success on Centos 5.2 no other way but by > following set-up procedures - i guess there is no other way, is there? We did not create that binary package, and we cannot support it. If you can demonstrate that your problem is something to do with Mailman in general and not something specific to the binary package you're using, then we'll be glad to try to help. If there's a grey area, we'll try to help you identify the nature of the problem, so that you know where to go for further assistance. But any issues that are specific to your binary package, especially anything to do with installation and configuration of that binary package, are beyond our ability to help with. > Now i'm looking for pointers from somebody who possibly had to do same > thing on Centos+BQ and can tell me what did i miss. There may be someone else on the list who has experience with this combination, but of course you should also check the archives of the list to see if anyone else has posted on this subject. I still think you're much more likely to get something useful if you go to the people who created your binary package and get support from them. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 22 16:20:17 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 07:20:17 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Centos + Blue Quartz question - virtual site issue. In-Reply-To: <68F0624BC1B8434B9BC66B670FFAA3F0@fester> Message-ID: Alex wrote: >I'm trying to set up Mailman on NuOnce Centos+Blue Quartz site, running into >a problem - all emails to the aliases come back as "unknown user". >Invitation to join works fine; replying to confirm results in membership. >my understanding is that aliases are not being read - how do i fix this >one? > >have successfully set up mailman on centos 5.2 just to see it work - works >great! > > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >... while talking to lists.fergula.com.: >>>> DATA ><<< 553 5.3.0 ... No such user here >550 5.1.1 ... User unknown ><<< 503 5.0.0 Need RCPT (recipient) > > >Final-Recipient: RFC822; testeq-list at lists.fergula.com >Action: failed >Status: 5.3.0 >Remote-MTA: DNS; lists.fergula.com >Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 553 5.3.0 ... No such >user here >Last-Attempt-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:32:22 -0500 Based on your off-list reply to Brad, it appears that you're using a CentOS/RedHat Mailman package. My understanding of this package, which may be incorrect, is it integrates aliases with Postfix as the MTA. The SMTP interaction quoted in the DSN above does not appear to be from Postfix. Postfix says things like 550 5.1.1 : Recipient address rejected: User unknown in local recipient table. So my best guess, is your package think's it's using Postfix, but this is actually some other MTA, so you'll probably need to set up the aliases manually or whatever is appropriate for the MTA you're actually using. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From tmz at pobox.com Mon Dec 22 16:38:43 2008 From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:38:43 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Centos + Blue Quartz question - virtual site issue. In-Reply-To: References: <68F0624BC1B8434B9BC66B670FFAA3F0@fester> Message-ID: <20081222153843.GM12325@inocybe.teonanacatl.org> Mark Sapiro wrote: > Based on your off-list reply to Brad, it appears that you're using a > CentOS/RedHat Mailman package. My understanding of this package, > which may be incorrect, is it integrates aliases with Postfix as the > MTA. The Red Hat / CentOS mailman packages don't create any default integration with an MTA. That is left to the user to configure. The package includes this text in the description: Documentation can be found in: /usr/share/doc/mailman-2.1.9 When the package has finished installing, you will need to perform some additional installation steps, these are described in: /usr/share/doc/mailman-2.1.9/INSTALL.REDHAT So, just as with installing mailman from source, the administrator of the machine needs to do some configuration. FWIW, the INSTALL.REDHAT file is essentially the same as the mailman INSTALL file, with the sections on getting the files onto the disk stripped out and information on the FHS path modifications added. -- Todd OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Truth is like a well-known whore. Everybody knows her but it's embarrassing to meet her in the street. -- Wolfgang Borchert -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 542 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Mon Dec 22 18:05:54 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:05:54 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam Message-ID: <1229965554.6601.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> Brad, (or anyone), Please excuse me if this is a bit OT. I was intrigued by your comments on the economics of spam, which prompted me to introduce pre-filtering on one of my servers, possibly later on both of them. Where did you get the information, in particular, that there's an income flow based on successful SMTP delivery? Any references on the subject will be appreciated. -- Lindsay Haisley | "The voice of dissent | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | was arrested before the | available at 512-259-1190 | president cleared his | http://pubkeys.fmp.com http://www.fmp.com | throat to speak | | of freedom" | | (Chris Chandler) | From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 22 19:15:58 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:15:58 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: <1229965554.6601.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Lindsay Haisley wrote: > >I was intrigued by your comments on the economics of spam, which >prompted me to introduce pre-filtering on one of my servers, possibly >later on both of them. Where did you get the information, in >particular, that there's an income flow based on successful SMTP >delivery? Any references on the subject will be appreciated. This doesn't directly answer your question (i.e., it's even further OT), but I found it interesting. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Mon Dec 22 19:36:51 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 12:36:51 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1229971011.6601.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-12-22 at 10:15 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote: > Lindsay Haisley wrote: > > > >I was intrigued by your comments on the economics of spam, which > >prompted me to introduce pre-filtering on one of my servers, possibly > >later on both of them. Where did you get the information, in > >particular, that there's an income flow based on successful SMTP > >delivery? Any references on the subject will be appreciated. > > > This doesn't directly answer your question (i.e., it's even further > OT), but I found it interesting. > Actually, I've been reading the source paper about which this article was written. It's online as a PDF at: http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/pubs/networking/2008-ccs-spamalytics.pdf -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | if you let it" | available at 512-259-1190 | (The Roadie) | http://pubkeys.fmp.com http://www.fmp.com | | From measl at mfn.org Tue Dec 23 14:09:15 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 07:09:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Domain Keys - Stripping thereof? Message-ID: I have subscribers complaining, rightfully so, that their provider is dumping any post from a Google user into the spam box for not having a correct Domain Key, i.e., we are not resigning it, nor are we stripping it. Is this possible? Thanks! //Alif -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From measl at mfn.org Tue Dec 23 14:38:53 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 07:38:53 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] Posts from listowner address issue In-Reply-To: <1229795313.6803.197.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1229795313.6803.197.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: [Even though this is a dead thread, I just saw this and wanted to clarify a point] On Sat, 20 Dec 2008, Lindsay Haisley wrote: > Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Posts from listowner address issue > > On Sat, 2008-12-20 at 11:30 -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote: > > listowner address sends a "Maintenance Over" message to a bunch of > > machines/lists. > > It's not coming from Mailman. Are your list/list-owner addresses > possibly referenced in a boot script? The sentence was poorly phrased. It should probably have said "I send out a 'Maintenance Window Closed'" message from the listowner address. //Alif -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From measl at mfn.org Tue Dec 23 14:59:39 2008 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 07:59:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Users] IGNORE --> Re: Domain Keys - Stripping thereof? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry - Way too early, no coffee :-( Mea culpa. //Alif -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin_at_mfn.org 0xpgp_key_mgmt_is_broken-dont_bother "Never belong to any party, always oppose privileged classes and public plunderers, never lack sympathy with the poor, always remain devoted to the public welfare, never be satisfied with merely printing news, always be drastically independent, never be afraid to attack wrong, whether by predatory plutocracy or predatory poverty." Joseph Pulitzer 1907 Speech From brad at shub-internet.org Tue Dec 23 17:07:21 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 10:07:21 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: <1229965554.6601.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1229965554.6601.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <49510CB9.8000607@shub-internet.org> on 12/22/08 11:05 AM, Lindsay Haisley said: > I was intrigued by your comments on the economics of spam, which > prompted me to introduce pre-filtering on one of my servers, possibly > later on both of them. Where did you get the information, in > particular, that there's an income flow based on successful SMTP > delivery? Any references on the subject will be appreciated. One place I encountered this subject was at the LISA 2007 conference in Dallas. We had a workshop on spam fighting on Sunday (see ), which was organized by Chris St. Pierre. Chris also lead the guru-is-in session entitled "Everything You Need to Know about Spam (in 15 Minutes)" (see ). Then there was a talk by Ken Simpson entitled "Using Throttling and Traffic Shaping to Combat Botnet Spam" (see ), and a talk by David Josephsen entitled "Homeless Vikings: BGP Prefix Hijacking and the Spam Wars" (see ). The subject of the economics of spam was discussed in each of these places, to a greater or lesser degree. The concept of spamming the postmaster is common enough that it shows up quite a lot when you google for it, and it's recognized on wikipedia (see the last sentence at ). -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From arogozin at comcast.net Mon Dec 22 08:18:38 2008 From: arogozin at comcast.net (Alex) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 02:18:38 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Centos + Blue Quartz question - virtual site issue. References: <68F0624BC1B8434B9BC66B670FFAA3F0@fester> <494F36FD.9070300@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <761D13E7BF244CE2A72E9EAD9D7CD0A0@fester> Brad, your help is not working - it's broken. package was downloaded by webmin from YUM, correct one for OS. I have set up mailman with great success on Centos 5.2 no other way but by following set-up procedures - i guess there is no other way, is there? Now i'm looking for pointers from somebody who possibly had to do same thing on Centos+BQ and can tell me what did i miss. Regards, Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Knowles" To: "Alex" Cc: Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 1:43 AM Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Centos + Blue Quartz question - virtual site issue. > on 12/21/08 5:35 PM, Alex said: > >> I'm trying to set up Mailman on NuOnce Centos+Blue Quartz site, running >> into a problem - all emails to the aliases come back as "unknown user". > > Clearly, your aliases aren't set up correctly. Either you did not > complete the Mailman installation process using our instructions (see > ), or you're installing from a binary > package created by someone else and you may not have completed their > installation instructions, or maybe their installation process is > incomplete. > > If you're using a binary package from someone else, you need to go to the > developers of that package and get further support from them. > > -- > Brad Knowles > If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out > LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at > http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From bernie at fantasyfarm.com Mon Dec 22 19:22:11 2008 From: bernie at fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 13:22:11 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Only mailto, not http, list-* headers Message-ID: <494F9483.10966.15FB407A@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> Is it possible to configure mailman to ONLY provide the mailto list-* headers and not the http versions? [at the moment mailman is running on an internal server that doesn't have a public web interface and it is just confusing/annoying for the users to have a link that doesn't work]. thanks!! /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie at fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From ghenry at cmi.univ-mrs.fr Mon Dec 22 17:41:01 2008 From: ghenry at cmi.univ-mrs.fr (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard_Henry?=) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:41:01 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] running mailman on separate servers (smtp web with different architecture) Message-ID: <494FC31D.2030305@cmi.univ-mrs.fr> hello all, actually, my configuration is that smtp and web servers are on the same architecture (sparc solaris 10). I'm in the process of migrating the web server to opensolaris x86 architecture, and i don't find what are the minimal directories that i have to share between the two machines. If somebody can tell me the minimal dirs to share, i will appreciate. Thanks in advance for help, gerard From joe at netmusician.org Tue Dec 23 07:47:02 2008 From: joe at netmusician.org (Joe Auty) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 01:47:02 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Removing moderation flag via the command line Message-ID: <49508966.5040009@netmusician.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello, I'm trying to remove the moderator flag on some users via the command line so that these users are allowed to post to lists where the moderator flag is set by default. I found this posting from Feb. 2005, but this doesn't appear to be working for me: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2005-February/042396.html My script in the Mailman base directory: > # DU mailman Modules > # This should live in the base Mailman install directory to be seen by the withlist Mailman binary. > > from Mailman import mm_cfg > from Mailman.Errors import NotAMemberError > > # Set a member's moderator flag to on or off > # e.g. to disable moderation: setMemberModeratedFlag listname, email_address, '' > def setMemberModeratedFlag (mlist, addr, mod): > #print "Setting moderator flag to ",mod," for ",addr > mlist.setMemberOption (addr, mm_cfg.Moderate, mod) > mlist.Save() My input: # withlist -l -r du.setMemberModeratedFlag testlist myemailaddress '' Importing du... Running du.setMemberModeratedFlag()... Loading list testlist (locked) Unlocking (but not saving) list: testlist Finalizing (I also tried replacing the double quotes with "off"). This does not actually remove the flag for this address - posting to the list by this address still gets a bounce back saying that moderator approval is required. Any ideas? - -- Joe Auty NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians http://www.netmusician.org joe at netmusician.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFJUIlmCgdfeCwsL5ERAluCAJ47WJ/VqizlT/IhZw1M1wQkwEOYYQCdHC7I E2rRQqJpGWP5jZHSVdPfvoU= =20IC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mark at msapiro.net Tue Dec 23 17:42:18 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 08:42:18 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Only mailto, not http, list-* headers In-Reply-To: <494F9483.10966.15FB407A@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> Message-ID: Bernie Cosell wrote: >Is it possible to configure mailman to ONLY provide the mailto list-* >headers and not the http versions? [at the moment mailman is running on >an internal server that doesn't have a public web interface and it is >just confusing/annoying for the users to have a link that doesn't work]. There is no configuration option for this. You'd have to modify the code in Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py. There is a list setting include_rfc2369_headers which if False or 0 will not include the headers at all. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Tue Dec 23 18:06:22 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:06:22 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] running mailman on separate servers (smtp web withdifferent architecture) In-Reply-To: <494FC31D.2030305@cmi.univ-mrs.fr> Message-ID: G?rard Henry wrote: >actually, my configuration is that smtp and web servers are on the same >architecture (sparc solaris 10). >I'm in the process of migrating the web server to opensolaris x86 >architecture, and i don't find what are the minimal directories that i >have to share between the two machines. >If somebody can tell me the minimal dirs to share, i will appreciate. The cgi-bin, icons (if used) and spam directories are only used by the web server. The bin, cron, mail, qfiles and tests directories are not used by the web server. The Mailman, messages, pythonlib, scripts and templates directories are used by both, but they are immutable so there could be separate, unshared copies on each server or they can be shared. The rest (archives, data, lists, locks and logs) need to be shared. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Tue Dec 23 18:33:58 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:33:58 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Removing moderation flag via the command line In-Reply-To: <49508966.5040009@netmusician.org> Message-ID: Joe Auty wrote: > >I'm trying to remove the moderator flag on some users via the command >line so that these users are allowed to post to lists where the >moderator flag is set by default. I found this posting from Feb. 2005, >but this doesn't appear to be working for me: > >http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2005-February/042396.html > > > >My script in the Mailman base directory: > >> # DU mailman Modules >> # This should live in the base Mailman install directory to be seen by the withlist Mailman binary. >> >> from Mailman import mm_cfg >> from Mailman.Errors import NotAMemberError >> >> # Set a member's moderator flag to on or off >> # e.g. to disable moderation: setMemberModeratedFlag listname, email_address, '' >> def setMemberModeratedFlag (mlist, addr, mod): >> #print "Setting moderator flag to ",mod," for ",addr >> mlist.setMemberOption (addr, mm_cfg.Moderate, mod) >> mlist.Save() > > > >My input: > ># withlist -l -r du.setMemberModeratedFlag testlist myemailaddress '' >Importing du... >Running du.setMemberModeratedFlag()... >Loading list testlist (locked) >Unlocking (but not saving) list: testlist >Finalizing I don't know why this doesn't work. It works for me. >(I also tried replacing the double quotes with "off"). That will definetly not work. That will pass the string "off" as the value of mod in the mlist.setMemberOption (addr, mm_cfg.Moderate, mod) call, and setMemberOption tests the Python truth of this value. Since "off" is a non-zero length string, it is True so the option will be set On. The null string is the only argument that can be passed to this script which has value False. >This does not >actually remove the flag for this address - posting to the list by this >address still gets a bounce back saying that moderator approval is required. > >Any ideas? See the script at which is more robust and may work better for you. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Tue Dec 23 18:46:34 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:46:34 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Removing moderation flag via the command line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark Sapiro wrote: >Joe Auty wrote: >>This does not >>actually remove the flag for this address - posting to the list by this >>address still gets a bounce back saying that moderator approval is required. What is the reason why the post is held? Is it "Post by moderated member" or some other reason? -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From Jan at Bytesmiths.com Tue Dec 23 19:15:43 2008 From: Jan at Bytesmiths.com (Jan Steinman) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 10:15:43 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Lindsay Haisley > > On Mon, 2008-12-22 at 10:15 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote: >> Lindsay Haisley wrote: >>> >>> I was intrigued by your comments on the economics of spam... >> >> This doesn't directly answer your question (i.e., it's even further >> OT), but I found it interesting. >> > > Actually, I've been reading the source paper about which this article > was written. It's online as a PDF at: > > http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/pubs/networking/2008-ccs-spamalytics.pdf I would willingly pay a hundredth of a cent (or so) per email sent if it would reduce spam to near-zero. According to this study, $0.0001 per email sent would more than wipe out the spammers' profit, but sending legit email to every one of my couple-dozen Mailman lists would only cost about a dime. I wouldn't even bother to pass that cost on to my customers. :::: Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the human race. - H.G. Wells :::: :::: Jan Steinman, EcoReality :::: From stephen at xemacs.org Tue Dec 23 19:45:25 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 03:45:25 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87eizywx16.fsf@xemacs.org> Jan Steinman writes: > I would willingly pay a hundredth of a cent (or so) per email sent if > it would reduce spam to near-zero. Only problem is, you'll have to go to the bank and fill out the electronic funds transfer form for each $.00001 you pay. Nanopayments are not a solved problem. From Jan at Bytesmiths.com Tue Dec 23 19:58:58 2008 From: Jan at Bytesmiths.com (Jan Steinman) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 10:58:58 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: <87eizywx16.fsf@xemacs.org> References: <87eizywx16.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: <83E92D87-BA97-456C-8B44-B0EE21327D1F@Bytesmiths.com> On 23 Dec 08, at 10:45, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Jan Steinman writes: > >> I would willingly pay a hundredth of a cent (or so) per email sent if >> it would reduce spam to near-zero. > > Only problem is, you'll have to go to the bank and fill out the > electronic funds transfer form for each $.00001 you pay. > > Nanopayments are not a solved problem. I agree that the banking industry is too horribly inefficient to handle nanopayments. If they claim it costs them $25 to handle a bounced cheque, I can't imagine what they'd claim it costs to accept a $0.00001 payment. They've grown fat and lazy. Don't look to them for any innovation that doesn't involve barely-legal Ponzi schemes. Besides, individuals wouldn't be doing the payments, their providers would. The key is SMTP servers -- THEY would be the ones that would have to handle the accounting. And arguably, they might be the ones receiving payment anyway, since they are the ones ultimately bearing the cost. (I'd love to get $0.00001 for every spam my SMTP server passes -- would much more than pay for the email all my customers send out.) So I think the key to nanopayments is to cut the banks right out of the process. All of the accounting is already in SMTP -- you just have to add billing and collection. Someone write it up as RFC 5821, please? :-) But this is getting way OT, and we aren't going to solve the problem on this list. :::: The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw :::: :::: Jan Steinman, EcoReality http://www.EcoReality.org :::: From mark at msapiro.net Tue Dec 23 20:14:27 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 11:14:27 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Removing moderation flag via the command line In-Reply-To: <49512EB5.2080301@netmusician.org> Message-ID: Joe Auty wrote: >Mark Sapiro wrote: >> Mark Sapiro wrote: >> >> What is the reason why the post is held? Is it "Post by moderated >> member" or some other reason? >> > > >"Post to moderated list" > >Does this change the advice you gave me? No. I was just trying to determine if the script was actually failing to clear the "moderate" flag. Since the only evidence you gave for its failure was that posts were still being held, I wanted to be sure that they were being held because of the "moderate" flag. >Sorry, I'm a little confused >sorting out the distinction between moderators, the moderator flag, a >moderated list, etc. Was my original description of my problem (wanting >to remove the moderator flag) accurate in terms of the problem I'm >trying to solve? Yes, I think so. >I've been wondering if what I've been actually >accomplishing in my command is just allowing people the ability to >moderate other content - approving held messages. Are people that can do >this moderators, and is the moderator flag used for defining who is a >moderator, or who can post to a moderated list? The flag determines whether this person's post will be held for moderation for this reason. There are other reasons why a post might be held for moderator approval. For example, "too big", "implicit destination", "too many recipients", "post from a non-member", etc., but if a member's "moderate" flag is set, that person's posts will be held with reason "Post to moderated list". The "moderate" flag which is the same as the "mod" check box in the web admin Membership List is this control, and it has nothing to do with who is a moderator. List admins and moderators are in fact people who know the respective passwords. There are lists of addresses for "owner" and "moderator", but they actually only control who receives notices and what addresses appear in the "list run by" field at the bottom of web pages. >I simply want to accomplish the CLI equivalent of unchecking the "mod" >checkbox in the membership list within the web interface. That's what the script is supposed to do. As I said in my prior post, I don't know why it apparently isn't working. I copied the script out of your OP (and removed the '> ' from each line) and ran it with the withlist command in your post changing only the list name and user address and I could set a user's mod flag with withlist -l -r du.setMemberModeratedFlag testlist myemailaddress 'x' and clear it with withlist -l -r du.setMemberModeratedFlag testlist myemailaddress '' -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Tue Dec 23 20:24:28 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 11:24:28 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: <83E92D87-BA97-456C-8B44-B0EE21327D1F@Bytesmiths.com> Message-ID: Jan Steinman wrote: > >Besides, individuals wouldn't be doing the payments, their providers >would. The key is SMTP servers -- THEY would be the ones that would >have to handle the accounting. And arguably, they might be the ones >receiving payment anyway, since they are the ones ultimately bearing >the cost. (I'd love to get $0.00001 for every spam my SMTP server >passes -- would much more than pay for the email all my customers send >out.) And how does this work when the actual spam message is sent by a malware infected computer belonging to an arguably innocent user and is sent by direct SMTP to the recipient's MX? Of course, if you're suggesting that there be some clearing house mechanism whereby no MTA accepts mail without a payer, that might work although I suspect the spammers will figure a way for someone else to pay the bill and the net effect will be to just require people like me to go through extra steps to set up a payment account. Also, such a scheme is fraught with all the problems that currently affect SPF, DKIM, etc with forwarded mail. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Tue Dec 23 20:43:06 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 13:43:06 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1230061386.747.283.camel@vishnu.fmp.com> On Tue, 2008-12-23 at 11:24 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote: > Also, such a scheme is fraught with all the problems that currently > affect SPF, DKIM, etc with forwarded mail. It's always amazing to me that Internet e-mail works at all these days, what with spam, viruses, large software companies trying to dilute/pervert the standard, etc. That it still works is a testament to the technical wisdom and insight of the "founding fathers" (Gordon, Resnick, et al) who developed the RFCs on which it's based. When a lot of people think of the Internet, they think of the web, but as an IPP I can tell you this. If someone's website goes down they call you and complain. If their email goes down they come looking for you with a rope and a lawyer! Fortunately, I've never had to deal with the latter. -- Lindsay Haisley | "In an open world, | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | who needs Windows | available at 512-259-1190 | or Gates" | http://pubkeys.fmp.com http://www.fmp.com | | From barry at python.org Tue Dec 23 20:55:22 2008 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:55:22 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Dec 23, 2008, at 2:24 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > And how does this work when the actual spam message is sent by a > malware infected computer belonging to an arguably innocent user and > is sent by direct SMTP to the recipient's MX? Bill the OS vendor of the infected machine. :) - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSVFCKnEjvBPtnXfVAQJaWwP/dFAasxAfhIa1Cw+niJ1asqEDilWBkpiO ymbcQyI4EL5ZsYBd1GftnOnimkigFuKCw5A1897T3LuTcmWd/BGcjqcU1CqsDzoS ARqZG9XQ99Jwfij9UbVci8Cel+FjYMys/DxuleWGwqb0u+OEHwkCk9iKsU0C1mNW dYbAtc0NWos= =UoLu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From stephen at xemacs.org Tue Dec 23 21:14:25 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 05:14:25 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87bpv2wswu.fsf@xemacs.org> Barry Warsaw writes: > Bill the OS vendor of the infected machine. :) In my case that was Linus and Debian, although the fault belonged to the authors of Smail 3.1.100 who documented and parsed an option to deny all forwarding, but didn't implement it. And the primary maintainer of a piece of software which AFAIK continues to be a source of backscatter might want to be a little careful about suggesting that vendors be billed .... From cameron at campworkz.com Wed Dec 24 00:07:49 2008 From: cameron at campworkz.com (Cameron Camp) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:07:49 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] multiple senders listed Message-ID: <1230073669.7137.7.camel@unclecameron-laptop> my mailing list is working fine, but there are 2 issues: 1. mail appears to come from 2 addresses, i.e.: From: noreply at domain.com, rn at www.domain.com 2. Return Path lists apache user, so: Return-Path: www-data at www.domain.com how can I fix these? Thanks, Cameron From mark at msapiro.net Wed Dec 24 00:45:32 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:45:32 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] multiple senders listed In-Reply-To: <1230073669.7137.7.camel@unclecameron-laptop> Message-ID: Cameron Camp wrote: >my mailing list is working fine, but there are 2 issues: > >1. mail appears to come from 2 addresses, i.e.: >From: noreply at domain.com, rn at www.domain.com > >2. Return Path lists apache user, so: >Return-Path: www-data at www.domain.com This doesn't look like a Mailman list. Return-Path: reflects the envelope sender of the mail and if it is the Apache user, that indicates this is something like phplist or some other web based list manager. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From cameron at campworkz.com Wed Dec 24 01:21:06 2008 From: cameron at campworkz.com (Cameron Camp) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:21:06 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] mutiple senders listed Message-ID: <1230078066.16931.5.camel@unclecameron-laptop> It's a server running only postfix and mailman, with an apache frontend for mailman. It runs multiple lists, and this is the only problem it seems to have, so it gets blocked by some recipients. >This doesn't look like a Mailman list. Return-Path: reflects the >envelope sender of the mail and if it is the Apache user, that >indicates this is something like phplist or some other web based list >manager. >Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, >San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan Thanks, Cameron From mark at msapiro.net Wed Dec 24 01:35:34 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:35:34 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] mutiple senders listed In-Reply-To: <1230078066.16931.5.camel@unclecameron-laptop> Message-ID: Cameron Camp wrote: >It's a server running only postfix and mailman, with an apache frontend >for mailman. It runs multiple lists, and this is the only problem it >seems to have, so it gets blocked by some recipients. Mailman sends mail with an envelope sender (Return-Path:) of LISTNAME-bounces at example.com. Mailman doesn't rewrite From: headers unless the list is configured as anonymous in which case the From: is rewritten to LISTNAME at example.com. If you are sure these messages are coming from Mailman, post the complete raw headers of a message here, and we'll try to figure out what's going on. Note other headers you will always find in messages from Mailman X-BeenThere: LISTNAME at example.com X-Mailman-Version: x.x.x Precedence: list And headers you may find depending on list configuration List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Wed Dec 24 02:56:40 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:56:40 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] connect to exchange server In-Reply-To: References: <49496A08.1010800@riverviewtech.net> <20081217213225.GS1778@amyl.org.uk>, <4949712B.1060801@riverviewtech.net> , <494BD6A2.1070304@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: <495196D8.3020200@riverviewtech.net> On 12/19/2008 11:42 AM, Jeanne Ilchuk wrote: > Thanks, Grant. My email to the mailman list is taking a long time to > get through. Would you mind doing a reply all ? I'm on vacation and > will work on this next week. Needs to be up and running by the end > of the year. I've CCed you. I wonder why mail from the mailing list is taking so long. > The mailing lists will be on the mailman server [solaris]. I was as > little contact as possible with the exchange server and the person > running it. Sounds like you will be happier having your mailing lists be in a sub-domain of their own rather than having to involve the Exchange admin every time you want to add or remove or rename a mailing list. Thus you will need to have a sub-domain routed to you by the Exchange server. > The microsoft person. *nod* You lucky ... person! You don't have to administer the Exchange system your self. Good for you. > version 8.1.240.0 I /think/ that is Exchange 2007, but I'm not sure. As such I won't be able to offer any insight on how to get Exchange to route a sub-domain to your Solaris Mailman server. So, you and your Exchange admin are on your own for that one. I think I've been running on an assumption here based on the fact that you are trying to get things to work with Exchange. Will your (sub)domain for your mailing lists have to pass through Exchange or can you have MX records reference your Mailman server directly? What are you doing with the Ecartis MLM that is being replaced? I would think that mail for Mailman would be handled very similarly as Ecartis. Grant. . . . From brad at shub-internet.org Wed Dec 24 08:33:02 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 01:33:02 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: <87bpv2wswu.fsf@xemacs.org> References: <87bpv2wswu.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: <4951E5AE.703@shub-internet.org> on 12/23/08 2:14 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull said: > And the primary maintainer of a piece of software which AFAIK > continues to be a source of backscatter might want to be a little > careful about suggesting that vendors be billed .... We give the list owners and site administrator the option of choosing how to configure their lists. So, the choice of who to send the bill to would end there. And to really solve the backscatter issue in this case would require that we integrate tightly enough into the MTA that the processing could be done while the sender is held open. The options in that space are mostly specific to a given MTA, although postfix also supports the sendmail milter interface in addition to the preferred policyd method. If you wanted to be of service to the community, you could always write a milter in Python that would go through all the same checks that Mailman would do and indicate back to the MTA whether or not the message would be accepted. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From bernie at fantasyfarm.com Tue Dec 23 20:56:46 2008 From: bernie at fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:56:46 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: <87eizywx16.fsf@xemacs.org> References: , , <87eizywx16.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: <4950FC2E.14377.1B7833C6@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> On 24 Dec 2008 at 3:45, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Jan Steinman writes: > > > I would willingly pay a hundredth of a cent (or so) per email sent if > > it would reduce spam to near-zero. > > Only problem is, you'll have to go to the bank and fill out the > electronic funds transfer form for each $.00001 you pay. > > Nanopayments are not a solved problem. My thought on this [from years ago -- I haven't pondered it much recently] was that using the international postal-service model would likely work; basically convert the problem from nanopayments between individuals to bulk payments between servers. The US and Canada don't tranfer back and forth to each other so many cents for each letter, they just aggregate them and come to a settlement in bulk. What I think would work would be to have the *servers* keep cross- accounts of mail sent and received and the payments would only have to flow in the sent-more to sent-less direction and would only have to happen occasionally to balance the books. That would also leave open [and irrelevant in the large] how the various servers recouped those costs from their customers. If a particular server refused to pay their bill, you'd just refuse to accept any more email from them until they paid up. /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie at fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From bernie at fantasyfarm.com Tue Dec 23 21:14:44 2008 From: bernie at fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:14:44 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <49510064.32070.1B88A9C3@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> On 23 Dec 2008 at 14:55, Barry Warsaw wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Dec 23, 2008, at 2:24 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > > > And how does this work when the actual spam message is sent by a > > malware infected computer belonging to an arguably innocent user and > > is sent by direct SMTP to the recipient's MX? > > Bill the OS vendor of the infected machine. :) Maybe, or the customer's ISP [which permitted the outgoing SMTP connection]. It is actually, I think, an interesting legal question: who should be responsible [in a get-sued way] for damages caused by [what is arguably] a user's negligence in the use of their computer? Or the vendor's negligence in selling a defective/toodangerous product? And not just for spam: what about the zombies in a bot net that cause *real* financial harm to a third party: should the owners of the infected machines bear any responsibility for the damage that's caused? /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie at fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From dennyzulfikar at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 03:24:03 2008 From: dennyzulfikar at gmail.com (Denny Zulfikar) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:24:03 +0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] domain "mail.mydomain.com" at email "myname@domain.com" Message-ID: Dear all, I am new user in this list. I have question that confusing me, I setup mailman-2.1.11 by manual from source package. My system is a mailserver using postfix virtual. hostname of the server is "mail" with domain "domain.com". My question are: 1. I had install the mail server successfully and also can send email to other mail server such as yahoo and gmail. In the recipient, email sent from my mail server identify as "from : username at domain.com". but, why in mailman admin webinterface it listed as username at mail.domain.com. ?? 2. I cannot invite any person although in mailman admin web interface the user already "successfully invited". Are there something missing in my configuration.? please help. BR, Denny From joe at netmusician.org Tue Dec 23 19:32:21 2008 From: joe at netmusician.org (Joe Auty) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 13:32:21 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Removing moderation flag via the command line In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49512EB5.2080301@netmusician.org> Mark Sapiro wrote: > Mark Sapiro wrote: > >> Joe Auty wrote: > >>> This does not >>> actually remove the flag for this address - posting to the list by this >>> address still gets a bounce back saying that moderator approval is required. > > > What is the reason why the post is held? Is it "Post by moderated > member" or some other reason? > "Post to moderated list" Does this change the advice you gave me? Sorry, I'm a little confused sorting out the distinction between moderators, the moderator flag, a moderated list, etc. Was my original description of my problem (wanting to remove the moderator flag) accurate in terms of the problem I'm trying to solve? I've been wondering if what I've been actually accomplishing in my command is just allowing people the ability to moderate other content - approving held messages. Are people that can do this moderators, and is the moderator flag used for defining who is a moderator, or who can post to a moderated list? I simply want to accomplish the CLI equivalent of unchecking the "mod" checkbox in the membership list within the web interface. -- Joe Auty NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians http://www.netmusician.org joe at netmusician.org From barry at list.org Wed Dec 24 13:51:38 2008 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 07:51:38 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: <4951E5AE.703@shub-internet.org> References: <87bpv2wswu.fsf@xemacs.org> <4951E5AE.703@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <3FD2DDAE-8EBC-4F1E-AB32-1EF4687F0496@list.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Dec 24, 2008, at 2:33 AM, Brad Knowles wrote: > on 12/23/08 2:14 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull said: > >> And the primary maintainer of a piece of software which AFAIK >> continues to be a source of backscatter might want to be a little >> careful about suggesting that vendors be billed .... > > We give the list owners and site administrator the option of > choosing how to configure their lists. So, the choice of who to > send the bill to would end there. > > And to really solve the backscatter issue in this case would require > that we integrate tightly enough into the MTA that the processing > could be done while the sender is held open. The options in that > space are mostly specific to a given MTA, although postfix also > supports the sendmail milter interface in addition to the preferred > policyd method. > > If you wanted to be of service to the community, you could always > write a milter in Python that would go through all the same checks > that Mailman would do and indicate back to the MTA whether or not > the message would be accepted. Mailman 3 will also probably support LMTP as the default local delivery mechanism, which I think will address the same issues. - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAklSMFsACgkQ2YZpQepbvXHehQCfYvTn9DFyP5KUS93w/xKRiJPu MEEAniqBkukvZVHYe4kDrU6bl4RU9CdS =4YZz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From stephen at xemacs.org Wed Dec 24 16:06:53 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:06:53 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: <4951E5AE.703@shub-internet.org> References: <87bpv2wswu.fsf@xemacs.org> <4951E5AE.703@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <871vvxwr1u.fsf@xemacs.org> Brad Knowles writes: > on 12/23/08 2:14 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull said: > > > And the primary maintainer of a piece of software which AFAIK > > continues to be a source of backscatter might want to be a little > > careful about suggesting that vendors be billed .... > > We give the list owners and site administrator the option of choosing > how to configure their lists. So, the choice of who to send the bill to > would end there. Sorry, no. In a fair world that might be true, but in our world (at least the U.S.) there's the small problem of the legal concept called "attractive nuisance" and liability for future damages due to systems installed from past versions, not upgraded or configured appropriately. So I don't think we even want to joke about financial penalties for spamming, because in the end it's applications like Mailman and this list itself that will end up as collateral damage in any such solution. > If you wanted to be of service to the community, you could always write > a milter in Python that would go through all the same checks that > Mailman would do and indicate back to the MTA whether or not the message > would be accepted. First I'd have to find out what those checks are, especially since in my own case a lot of mail gets discards by humans. Economics is what I do for a living; giving free advice in the "dismal science" may be the best contribution I can make. From mark at msapiro.net Wed Dec 24 17:11:04 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 08:11:04 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] domain "mail.mydomain.com" at email"myname@domain.com" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Denny Zulfikar wrote: > >I am new user in this list. I have question that confusing me, > >I setup mailman-2.1.11 by manual from source package. >My system is a mailserver using postfix virtual. hostname of the server is >"mail" with domain "domain.com". >My question are: >1. I had install the mail server successfully and also can send email to >other mail server such as yahoo and gmail. >In the recipient, email sent from my mail server identify as "from : >username at domain.com". but, why in mailman admin webinterface it listed as >username at mail.domain.com. ?? Because that's what you configured in Mailman either with the --with-mailhost configure option or after the fact by setting DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST in mm_cfg.py. >2. I cannot invite any person although in mailman admin web interface the >user already "successfully invited". "Successfully invited:" means the invitation was sent to the addresses listed. Why do you think it's an error? Here's an example of the report from an attempt to invite 3 addresses, one of which succeeded. Successfully invited: * mark+test at msapiro.net Error inviting: * qa#$"@example.com -- Bad/Invalid email address * mark+junk at msapiro.net -- Already a member If what you mean is you "Successfully invite" someone, but the invitation is not received, see the FAQ at . -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Wed Dec 24 18:11:38 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:11:38 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: <871vvxwr1u.fsf@xemacs.org> References: <87bpv2wswu.fsf@xemacs.org> <4951E5AE.703@shub-internet.org> <871vvxwr1u.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: <1230138698.15333.11.camel@vishnu.fmp.com> On Thu, 2008-12-25 at 00:06 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > So I don't think we even want to joke about financial penalties for > spamming, because in the end it's applications like Mailman and this > list itself that will end up as collateral damage in any such solution. > > > If you wanted to be of service to the community, you could always write > > a milter in Python that would go through all the same checks that > > Mailman would do and indicate back to the MTA whether or not the message > > would be accepted. > > First I'd have to find out what those checks are, especially since in > my own case a lot of mail gets discards by humans. > > Economics is what I do for a living; giving free advice in the "dismal > science" may be the best contribution I can make. Charging (someone) per email, while it's an attractive concept, seems to be kind of a technological mismatch. There are paradigms that can be associated with hard-copy paper mail that just don't apply to email. For instance, how do you deal appropriately with DSNs in such a system? How about mail addressed to "postmaster" which, by RFC, must be supported. Email has evolved more along the lines of the TCP/IP packet paradigm rather than that associated with postal hard-copy snail-mail. There are aspects of email that resemble ICMP packets far more than they resemble Christmas cards. -- Lindsay Haisley | "It is better to bite | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | a single cannibal than | available at 512-259-1190 | to curse the doggies" | http://pubkeys.fmp.com http://www.fmp.com | -- John Day | From bernie at fantasyfarm.com Wed Dec 24 18:37:48 2008 From: bernie at fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 12:37:48 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: <1230138698.15333.11.camel@vishnu.fmp.com> References: , <871vvxwr1u.fsf@xemacs.org>, <1230138698.15333.11.camel@vishnu.fmp.com> Message-ID: <49522D1C.4570.201F5595@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> On 24 Dec 2008 at 11:11, Lindsay Haisley wrote: > Charging (someone) per email, while it's an attractive concept, seems to > be kind of a technological mismatch. There are paradigms that can be > associated with hard-copy paper mail that just don't apply to email. > For instance, how do you deal appropriately with DSNs in such a system? > How about mail addressed to "postmaster" which, by RFC, must be > supported. I'm not sure these are fatal-flaw problems -- the hard-copy paper mail world *does* have sort-of equivalent processes. I don't understand exactly the problem with DSNs -- as I understand it, they are under the control of the sender and so the sender should pay [same as with the USPS: if you send stuff on the cheap, if it can't be delivered it is thrown away; if you pay more, they'll send you back an NDR. Why can't something similar fit into a server-to-server clearing? As for mail to postmaster, it must be supported but why must it be free? USmail to postmaster requires a stamp... > ... Email has evolved more along the lines of the TCP/IP packet > paradigm rather than that associated with postal hard-copy snail-mail. > There are aspects of email that resemble ICMP packets far more than they > resemble Christmas cards. Actually, this is backwards. email *started* that way [remember that forwarding was provided for and there was even that cute explicit-routing form of email address] and has, IMO, evolved off into needing to be *more*like* Christmas cards. /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie at fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From stephen at xemacs.org Thu Dec 25 02:29:06 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 10:29:06 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: <49522D1C.4570.201F5595@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> References: <871vvxwr1u.fsf@xemacs.org> <1230138698.15333.11.camel@vishnu.fmp.com> <49522D1C.4570.201F5595@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> Message-ID: <87y6y5ujod.fsf@xemacs.org> Bernie Cosell writes: > I'm not sure these are fatal-flaw problems They're not. > [same as with the USPS Aye, there's the rub. The USPS is, even today, a state(-protected) monopoly. Email is not, and cannot be, unless you make the whole Internet a state monopoly. > > ... Email has evolved more along the lines of the TCP/IP packet > > paradigm rather than that associated with postal hard-copy snail-mail. > > There are aspects of email that resemble ICMP packets far more than they > > resemble Christmas cards. Why, Lindsay, I'm shocked. I thought you didn't know the jargon! > Actually, this is backwards. email *started* that way [remember that > forwarding was provided for and there was even that cute explicit-routing > form of email address] and has, IMO, evolved off into needing to be > *more*like* Christmas cards. Including a national monopoly email provider, I guess? What I interpret Lindsay to be saying is that for Christmas cards you can treat the USPS as a well-behaved black box (in the systems analysis sense; it may or may not do the job it claims to do at all well, but you can figure out what job it reliably does). In particular you can determine that a piece of mail was properly paid for by the addressee because each and every one has postage *attached*, not merely "accounted for" somewhere. This is not true for ICMP or for email as currently designed; there is no way to determine the provenance of a packet in general. Sure, you can redesign email to require a secure, authenticated connection. But that's not the current design. Nor will a secure, authenticated connection that carries postage be acceptable in the market. Price competition will quickly drive postage actually paid to zero, and all that will happen is that the email network will become disconnected (as we are currently observing, anyway): a "backbone cabal" of email providers will evolve, and people with Linux boxes etc will set up wildcat SMTP networks along the lines of the old UUCP network. From fmouse-mailman at fmp.com Thu Dec 25 03:30:35 2008 From: fmouse-mailman at fmp.com (Lindsay Haisley) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:30:35 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: <87y6y5ujod.fsf@xemacs.org> References: <871vvxwr1u.fsf@xemacs.org> <1230138698.15333.11.camel@vishnu.fmp.com> <49522D1C.4570.201F5595@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> <87y6y5ujod.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: <1230172235.6631.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-12-25 at 10:29 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Including a national monopoly email provider, I guess? What I > interpret Lindsay to be saying is that for Christmas cards you can > treat the USPS as a well-behaved black box (in the systems analysis > sense; it may or may not do the job it claims to do at all well, but > you can figure out what job it reliably does). In particular you can > determine that a piece of mail was properly paid for by the addressee > because each and every one has postage *attached*, not merely > "accounted for" somewhere. This is not true for ICMP or for email as > currently designed; there is no way to determine the provenance of a > packet in general. To carry this analogy a bit further, here's an idea. IPv6 provides a substantial improvement in flexibility over IPv4, and the upgrade path from IPv4 to IPv6 is clear and relatively seamless. Would it not be possible to establish a dual-key cryptographic packet signature protocol for email sent using IPv6, applied at a packet level, and this signature could be authenticated against a private key, present only (or indicating) if the email sent using these packets has been been paid for? For v4 systems behind a IPv6->IPv4 gateway the v6 wrapper would be stripped away and the encapsulated email would be delivered normally, along with all the spam sent to it. For SMTP servers that are truly v6-aware and running on a v6 network it would be possible to verify the payment signature contained in the packet extensions and discriminate between paid-for email and spam. Perhaps the payment-autentication system could be developed in the context of a distributed database resembling that used for DNS, or more like DNSSEC, perhaps. Piggybacking this SMTP extension on the top of the already robust IPv6 standard would provide the flexibility for system that were not IPv6 aware to opt out of the signature system and accept _all_ email. The logical key here is that it's up to the _originating_ SMTP system to obtain a cryptographic key and negotiate payment. It's up to the _receiving_ system to decide whether to discriminate between paid-for email and unpaid email, so as to reject it, pre-tag it, or deal with it in some other fashion with the (v4) default being to treat all inbound email as it's treated now. This would not require a re-design of SMTP, only an extension of it. If this were feasible, it would certainly spur the deployment of IPv6 which could stand a kick in the ass. -- Lindsay Haisley |"Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services | creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 | trying to eradicate | http://www.fmp.com | dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | From stephen at xemacs.org Thu Dec 25 04:41:00 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 12:41:00 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: <1230172235.6631.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <871vvxwr1u.fsf@xemacs.org> <1230138698.15333.11.camel@vishnu.fmp.com> <49522D1C.4570.201F5595@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> <87y6y5ujod.fsf@xemacs.org> <1230172235.6631.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <87tz8svs4z.fsf@xemacs.org> Lindsay Haisley writes: > Perhaps the payment-autentication system could be developed in the > context of a distributed database resembling that used for DNS, or more > like DNSSEC, perhaps. I don't deny that technologically you could do this, but the question remains: who would actually pay? Again, assuming that traffic patterns stay the same, this is all very nice for AOL, which would have a substantial positive balance of payments. But it would suck rotten eggs for open source projects, whose primary interaction with the mail system is to host mailing lists that on average must have tiny inward flow and significant outward flow. Will traffic patterns stay the same? I think not. If AOL refuses mail without postage, delivery from my lists (not to mention from listmaster) to @aol.com addresses will stop. They can try to bill me, in which case they have no legal way to enforce since I haven't negotiated a contract with them. And I will simply unsubscribe all existing AOL addresses and bar them from subscribing in the future. I don't know what will happen to Gmail, Hotmail, Yahoo, and other freemail services. From stephen at xemacs.org Thu Dec 25 04:46:12 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 12:46:12 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam and OT: In-Reply-To: References: <871vvxwr1u.fsf@xemacs.org> <1230138698.15333.11.camel@vishnu.fmp.com> <49522D1C.4570.201F5595@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> <87y6y5ujod.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: <87skocvrwb.fsf@xemacs.org> Alex writes: > Well, Comcast just blocked port 25 at my house and required to use port 587 > for outgoing mail. I guess charging money per email is next? No, why do you think that follows? Blocking port 25 simply means that you can't spam without going through Comcast. If they thought that charging money made sense, they'd simply charge you for throughput on that port, or maybe by the SYN packet. Anyway, this is way off topic, and I'm going to shut up now on this list. If people have a more appropriate forum, I'd happily accept an invite. Steve aka "Unwelcome Guest" :-) on alioth and /. From bernie at fantasyfarm.com Thu Dec 25 06:12:44 2008 From: bernie at fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:12:44 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: <87y6y5ujod.fsf@xemacs.org> References: , <49522D1C.4570.201F5595@bernie.fantasyfarm.com>, <87y6y5ujod.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: <4952CFFC.3093.229B90C4@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> On 25 Dec 2008 at 10:29, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Bernie Cosell writes: > > [same as with the USPS > > Aye, there's the rub. The USPS is, even today, a state(-protected) > monopoly. Email is not, and cannot be, unless you make the whole > Internet a state monopoly. What I was suggesting was not to model it on the USPS directly but on the *international* postal system. What I had in mind was the rough analog of considering each SMTP server as being sort-of a country-unto-itself and so settling its "international" email accounts with other SMTP servers in sort of the way the USPS and CanadaPost and RoyalMail and .. all do. > > Actually, this is backwards. email *started* that way [remember that > > forwarding was provided for and there was even that cute explicit-routing > > form of email address] and has, IMO, evolved off into needing to be > > *more*like* Christmas cards. > > Including a national monopoly email provider, I guess? What I > interpret Lindsay to be saying is that for Christmas cards you can > treat the USPS as a well-behaved black box (in the systems analysis > sense; it may or may not do the job it claims to do at all well, but > you can figure out what job it reliably does). Right, and in my model I can treat *my* SMTP server as a well-behaved black box. > .. In particular you can > determine that a piece of mail was properly paid for by the addressee > because each and every one has postage *attached*, not merely > "accounted for" somewhere. This is an unnecessary frill and a relic of the 1800s. All that's required is that the sending SMTP server and the receiving SMTP server keep accounts. But note that this is *exactly* what has to happen with international mail. CanadaPost doesn't [directly] get any of my 57cents [or whatever it is] when I send a letter from the US to Canada -- it is accounted for and the USPS [as I understand it] "banks" the extra 15 cents and then clears accounts with CanadaPost at some interval [annually?]. Nobody transfer "micropayments" across the border. > ... This is not true for ICMP or for email as > currently designed; there is no way to determine the provenance of a > packet in general. Not at all true. Email isn't transmitted by IP packets, it is transmitted by TCP connections from one SMTP server to another and so provenance isn't in question. A receiving SMTP server knows *exactly* which SMTP server is sending the message and could easily 1) decide whether or not to accept the connection based on whether the sending-server was a "deadbeat" or not, and & 2) keep a record [that'd be matched by the outgoing logs at the sending SMTP server] of the traffic so that at some interval the two could rectify accounts. Note that in what I was suggesting, the receiving SMTP server doesn't know or care what _individual_ sent the message, only that it came from SMTP-server-X. SMTP-server-X can decide how *IT* wants to pass on the cost of sending the message [or not!] to whomever *it* accepted the message from, be it one of their customers or some other SMTP server. > ... all that will happen is that the email network will become > disconnected (as we are currently observing, anyway): a "backbone > cabal" of email providers will evolve, and people with Linux boxes etc > will set up wildcat SMTP networks along the lines of the old UUCP > network. I doubt that. If google and AOL and just a few others refuse email from any SMTP server that doesn't have a transfer-account-in-good-standing, I doubt that the 'wildcatters' will get very far. I'm not convinced that the scheme will work, but it really doesn't require any changes in SMTP or required assured-authenications or micropayments or anything along those lines, and so it *might* work. Note, too, that 'satellite' SMTP servers can play along if they choose : if I'm mycompany.com and I don't want the bother of having a lot of email transfer payment accounts with SMTP servers around the world, there's room for a "paypal" like enterprise: I sign up with them, I use *THEM* as a relaying-smtp server [basically exactly like the way individual customers use their ISP's outgoing SMTP server] and my "email paypal" would handle all of the accounts with the other SMTP servers and I could just settle with my 'relay' by whatever contractual arrangement I'd made. /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie at fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From bernie at fantasyfarm.com Thu Dec 25 06:12:44 2008 From: bernie at fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:12:44 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: <87tz8svs4z.fsf@xemacs.org> References: , <1230172235.6631.57.camel@localhost.localdomain>, <87tz8svs4z.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: <4952CFFC.11417.229B8F3D@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> On 25 Dec 2008 at 12:41, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Again, assuming that traffic patterns stay the same, this is all very > nice for AOL, which would have a substantial positive balance of > payments. But it would suck rotten eggs for open source projects, > whose primary interaction with the mail system is to host mailing > lists that on average must have tiny inward flow and significant > outward flow. This is wildly offtopic for this list and I, too, am going to stop prolonging it, but I'll just mention that this is the *CRUX* of the problem: what do you do if you want to let a "white hat" server that sends a million messages a month do so unencumbered but still somehow penalize/charge a "black hat" spamhaus. I *THINK* that the folks here, earlier, said that they'd be willing to pay to have a global/overall email system that was essentially spam free, and that means that the 'white hat' folks running mailing lists would have to figure out what to do. There are three obvious choices [this no matter what scheme is used to set up pay-for-play]: 1) be on a hosting server that out of the goodness of their hearts will eat the costs, 2) have the list admins eat the cost [e.g., if SUN "bankrolls" the Java mailing list or something like that], or 3) have the lists go to a subscription basis. On (3), since we were proposing one-one-hundredth of a [US] cent per message, that means that for me to sign up for this list [what: a thousand messages a year?] it would cost me something like a dime a year to subscribe. I'd pay that. > Will traffic patterns stay the same? I think not. If AOL refuses > mail without postage, delivery from my lists (not to mention from > listmaster) to @aol.com addresses will stop. They can try to bill me, > in which case they have no legal way to enforce since I haven't > negotiated a contract with them. And I will simply unsubscribe all > existing AOL addresses and bar them from subscribing in the future. This re-emphasizes that whatever criticisms you've made of various schemes for effecting this kind of thing, you basically have a fundamental philsophical refusal to accept the approach at all. Basically, you *INSIST* that you be permitted to send your email for free, regardless of the distributed costs. I don't see why email should be free [and indeed, our experience with spammers would seem to indicate that email-all-you-want-for-free is an idea that probably should have died when NSF opened the net to outsiders] /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie at fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From brad at shub-internet.org Thu Dec 25 06:20:36 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 23:20:36 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam In-Reply-To: <4952CFFC.11417.229B8F3D@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> References: , <1230172235.6631.57.camel@localhost.localdomain>, <87tz8svs4z.fsf@xemacs.org> <4952CFFC.11417.229B8F3D@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> Message-ID: <49531824.5050909@shub-internet.org> on 12/24/08 11:12 PM, Bernie Cosell said: > This is wildly offtopic for this list and I, too, am going to stop > prolonging it, If you want to continue this conversation, try the IETF/IRTF Anti-Spam Research Group. John Levine has mentioned that everyone over there is going through the e-postal solution right now, and I'm sure you'd have plenty of other people to discuss the subject with. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From just.mailman at lesve.org Thu Dec 25 18:31:54 2008 From: just.mailman at lesve.org (Lesve) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 18:31:54 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] private contra public archives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4953C38A.1060708@lesve.org> I have had my mailman archive public and all works out OK Even attachment works OK. (HTTP) Now I have set the archive to private and suddenly it was impossible to read attachment from the archive (HTTP) Have I done something wrong ? Regards From mark at msapiro.net Thu Dec 25 20:28:20 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:28:20 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] private contra public archives In-Reply-To: <4953C38A.1060708@lesve.org> Message-ID: Lesve wrote: >I have had my mailman archive public and all works out OK >Even attachment works OK. (HTTP) > >Now I have set the archive to private and >suddenly it was impossible to read attachment from the archive (HTTP) I'm not sure what your issue is, but when archives are private, URLs like http://www.example.com/pipermail/LIST/... will no longer work. The archives are accessed via URLs like http://www.example.com/mailman/private/LIST/... and log in with your subscribed email address and password or with the list admin or moderator password is required. If you are looking at a 'pipermail' URL in an old message in the archive, it will no longer work. You will need to rebuild the archive with bin/arch --wipe in order to "fix" the URLs to scrubbed attachments. Note however that if the attachments were scrubbed from the individual messages because the list's scrub_nondigest is set to yes, there's nothing you can do about these URLs other than manually editing them. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From arogozin at comcast.net Thu Dec 25 02:48:04 2008 From: arogozin at comcast.net (Alex) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:48:04 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam and OT: References: <871vvxwr1u.fsf@xemacs.org><1230138698.15333.11.camel@vishnu.fmp.com><49522D1C.4570.201F5595@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> <87y6y5ujod.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: Well, Comcast just blocked port 25 at my house and required to use port 587 for outgoing mail. I guess charging money per email is next? port 25 is dead dropped to my non-comcast server as well. Also comcast rep writes: I have included the current list of blocked ports for you below: 67 68 135 137 138 139 445 512 520 1080 Al ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" To: "Bernie Cosell" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 8:29 PM Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] The economics of spam > Bernie Cosell writes: > > > I'm not sure these are fatal-flaw problems > > They're not. > > > [same as with the USPS > > Aye, there's the rub. The USPS is, even today, a state(-protected) > monopoly. Email is not, and cannot be, unless you make the whole > Internet a state monopoly. > > > > ... Email has evolved more along the lines of the TCP/IP packet > > > paradigm rather than that associated with postal hard-copy snail-mail. > > > There are aspects of email that resemble ICMP packets far more than > > > they > > > resemble Christmas cards. > > Why, Lindsay, I'm shocked. I thought you didn't know the jargon! > > > Actually, this is backwards. email *started* that way [remember that > > forwarding was provided for and there was even that cute > > explicit-routing > > form of email address] and has, IMO, evolved off into needing to be > > *more*like* Christmas cards. > > Including a national monopoly email provider, I guess? What I > interpret Lindsay to be saying is that for Christmas cards you can > treat the USPS as a well-behaved black box (in the systems analysis > sense; it may or may not do the job it claims to do at all well, but > you can figure out what job it reliably does). In particular you can > determine that a piece of mail was properly paid for by the addressee > because each and every one has postage *attached*, not merely > "accounted for" somewhere. This is not true for ICMP or for email as > currently designed; there is no way to determine the provenance of a > packet in general. > > Sure, you can redesign email to require a secure, authenticated > connection. But that's not the current design. Nor will a secure, > authenticated connection that carries postage be acceptable in the > market. Price competition will quickly drive postage actually paid to > zero, and all that will happen is that the email network will become > disconnected (as we are currently observing, anyway): a "backbone > cabal" of email providers will evolve, and people with Linux boxes etc > will set up wildcat SMTP networks along the lines of the old UUCP > network. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Mailman-Users mailing list > Mailman-Users at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Searchable Archives: > http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/arogozin%40comcast.net > > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 From sean.wilkins at formerinsers.com Thu Dec 25 03:32:59 2008 From: sean.wilkins at formerinsers.com (Sean Wilkins) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 21:32:59 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Global Subscribe Message-ID: <4952F0DB.5060707@formerinsers.com> Does mailman have the ability to send one email to globally subscribe to all lists on the server? thx for the help. -sean From mark at msapiro.net Fri Dec 26 16:17:30 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 07:17:30 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Global Subscribe In-Reply-To: <4952F0DB.5060707@formerinsers.com> Message-ID: Sean Wilkins wrote: >Does mailman have the ability to send one email to globally subscribe to >all lists on the server? No. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk Sat Dec 27 16:24:00 2008 From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:24:00 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Global Subscribe In-Reply-To: References: <4952F0DB.5060707@formerinsers.com> Message-ID: <20081227152400.GD25502@amyl.org.uk> On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 07:17:30AM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote: > Sean Wilkins wrote: > > >Does mailman have the ability to send one email to globally subscribe to > >all lists on the server? > > No. I've used list_lists, awk, a while/do loop and add_members to do something similar. Add the email addresses of those to be subscribed to all lists to a file, and use that (if you're mad^Wso inclined, a web-form that collects the email addy into a database/text file could be used too). Doesn't work for newly created lists, but nothing stopping cron running a check or something (or running add_members after creating a new list) YMMV. -- ``Odd things, animals. Dogs look up to you. Cats look down to you. Only pigs see you as an equal.'' (Churchill) From bergenpeak at comcast.net Sat Dec 27 21:05:36 2008 From: bergenpeak at comcast.net (bergenpeak at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 13:05:36 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Global Subscribe In-Reply-To: <20081227152400.GD25502@amyl.org.uk> References: <4952F0DB.5060707@formerinsers.com> <20081227152400.GD25502@amyl.org.uk> Message-ID: <49568A90.4010605@comcast.net> I've used a varaition to this. I've got a few 100 lists that are logically broken into domains and sub-domains. A domain might consist of dozens of lists and a sub-domain into a handful of lists. I've got a web front end that creates a web page with all the lists one can join-- click on the link and a mail message is pre-formated to sub or unsub to the list. Just hit send to sub or unsub to the mail message to join/leave the list. This is easy if one just needs to join one list, it's a pain if you need to join all lists in a domain (dozens) To deal with a folks wanting to join/leave all lists within a domain, I've created a number of placeholder entries in /etc/alias. On the web page, I've create a sub/unsub links for each domain or subdomain that points to the placeholder mail address name. Click on the link and a preformated mail message is created to sub or unsub for all lists in the doimain and then the user just hits send. In /etc/alias, I have entries like this: domain1-request: "|/path/to/script.pl" "domain1-request" is one of the placeholder mail addresses on the server. When mail gets delivered to this address it actually gets processed by "script.pl". "script.pl" pulls out the subject, from address and then parses the to address. The "to" addresses use a common syntax-- in reality "domain1" refers to a file name on the mailman server. "script.pl" opens the file "domain1" which contains all the specific lists associated with this domain. The script then performs an add user or remove user (based on whether the subject is subscribe or unsubscribe) for each list enumerated in the "domain1" file. The end result to the user is that the click on a single link, and instantly get added or removed from all of the lists within that domain. They also get a mail notification from each list they got added to or removed from. [Note that this is a closed server/env so I've disabled the "reply to this mail to confirm" as it would mean user action for each of the lists within the domain] Cheers Adam McGreggor wrote: > On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 07:17:30AM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote: > >> Sean Wilkins wrote: >> >> >>> Does mailman have the ability to send one email to globally subscribe to >>> all lists on the server? >>> >> No. >> > > I've used list_lists, awk, a while/do loop and add_members to do something similar. > > Add the email addresses of those to be subscribed to all lists to a file, and > use that (if you're mad^Wso inclined, a web-form that collects the email > addy into a database/text file could be used too). > > Doesn't work for newly created lists, but nothing stopping cron running a check > or something (or running add_members after creating a new list) > > YMMV. > > From arogozin at comcast.net Sat Dec 27 03:53:59 2008 From: arogozin at comcast.net (Alex) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 21:53:59 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] yet another message filtering question References: Message-ID: <8A14AD864BC3473BB14EEE300A2A5CA1@fester> What would be the best way (if there is one) in Mailman to remove all attachments before maximum message size value sends the message to moderator for approval?. I have read archives about demime and stripmime but perl and other scripts make me nervous - i am not very good at this stuff and don't even know where to begin. Regards, Alex From mark at msapiro.net Mon Dec 29 17:42:59 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 08:42:59 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] yet another message filtering question In-Reply-To: <8A14AD864BC3473BB14EEE300A2A5CA1@fester> Message-ID: Alex wrote: >What would be the best way (if there is one) in Mailman to remove all >attachments before maximum message size value sends the message to moderator >for approval?. >I have read archives about demime and stripmime but perl and other scripts >make me nervous - i am not very good at this stuff and don't even know where >to begin. The issue you see arises because the Hold handler which enforces the maximum message size comed earlier in the handler pipeline than the MimeDel handler which does content filtering. What I do for my production site is add the following lines to mm_cfg.py # # Put MimeDel ahead of Hold so "too big" is based on content filtered # message. # GLOBAL_PIPELINE.remove('MimeDel') GLOBAL_PIPELINE.insert(GLOBAL_PIPELINE.index('Hold'), 'MimeDel') (Only the last two are required. The first 4 are documentation of what's being done). The result of this is the message is not held if content filtering reduces its size below the max. Also, any messages held for 'miscellaneous' reasons have already been content filtered, but messages held for 'membership' reasons (non-member or moderated member) will be content filtered after approval. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From dap1 at bellsouth.net Mon Dec 29 22:52:14 2008 From: dap1 at bellsouth.net (Dennis Putnam) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 16:52:14 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Relative Admin URLs Message-ID: <4959468E.6000605@bellsouth.net> I read some threads on producing relative URLs for the admin pages but it seemed like there is a bug/hole and I did not find any closure on it. Has that issue been resolved and if so how do I configure mailman to generate relative URLs rather than absolute? Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 258 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org Mon Dec 29 23:11:01 2008 From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:11:01 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] help files Message-ID: <20081229233308.056C5131B20@friskymail-a2.g.dreamhost.com> version 2.1.11 It appears that at least some of the help files are no longer available at the links embedded in Mailman, like this one: http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/re-syntax.html I wonder if someone with the keys to Mailman and/or python.org can fix this. - - - - - - - - - - - - Michael Welch, volunteer Redwood Alliance PO Box 293 Arcata, CA 95518 707-822-7884 mwelch at redwoodalliance.org www.redwoodalliance.org From mark at msapiro.net Tue Dec 30 00:54:45 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:54:45 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] help files In-Reply-To: <20081229233308.056C5131B20@friskymail-a2.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Michael Welch wrote: > >It appears that at least some of the help files are no longer available at the links embedded in Mailman, like this one: >http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/re-syntax.html I am aware the the python.org documentation URLs have all changed. Unfortunately, it's not a simple mapping. E.g., the above becomes or equivalently . I do plan to update all the python.org references before the next release. I have already updated references to the old FAQ Wizard. If you are aware of any othe broken links, please let me know. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Tue Dec 30 01:26:50 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 16:26:50 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Relative Admin URLs In-Reply-To: <4959468E.6000605@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: Dennis Putnam wrote: > >I read some threads on producing relative URLs for the admin pages but >it seemed like there is a bug/hole and I did not find any closure on it. >Has that issue been resolved and if so how do I configure mailman to >generate relative URLs rather than absolute? Thanks. It's a bug. It has not been fixed to date, but it will be for the next release. The following patch will fix it. === modified file 'Mailman/Utils.py' --- Mailman/Utils.py 2008-12-05 23:08:41 +0000 +++ Mailman/Utils.py 2008-12-30 00:23:28 +0000 @@ -266,7 +266,7 @@ fullpath = os.environ.get('SCRIPT_NAME', '') + \ os.environ.get('PATH_INFO', '') baseurl = urlparse.urlparse(web_page_url)[2] - if not absolute and fullpath.endswith(baseurl): + if not absolute and fullpath.startswith(baseurl): # Use relative addressing fullpath = fullpath[len(baseurl):] i = fullpath.find('?') -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From brad at shub-internet.org Tue Dec 30 02:29:59 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:29:59 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] help files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49597997.3060203@shub-internet.org> on 12/29/08 5:54 PM, Mark Sapiro said: > I am aware the the python.org documentation URLs have all changed. > Unfortunately, it's not a simple mapping. E.g., the above becomes > > or equivalently > . Part of the problem is that the people who maintain the official python.org documentation for this information feel that Mailman should not be referencing their documentation, instead we should have our own internal version of the same information. So, they don't give a flying flip about what happens to the Mailman community when they change their documentation or their URLs. Since the release engineer for the next major version of Python is going to be mentored by Barry Warsaw for that role, perhaps we can get some sympathy there and hopefully get a bit more cooperation on things like this. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Tue Dec 30 03:29:37 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:29:37 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] help files In-Reply-To: <49597997.3060203@shub-internet.org> References: <49597997.3060203@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <49598791.8080606@riverviewtech.net> On 12/29/2008 07:29 PM, Brad Knowles wrote: > Part of the problem is that the people who maintain the official > python.org documentation for this information feel that Mailman should > not be referencing their documentation, instead we should have our own > internal version of the same information. Arguably, that is probably the better thing to do. Or at least point to a page that says "Go to find the information that you are wanting..." and have the "" be more easily update able while still providing a static path that will work across multiple Maiman releases. > So, they don't give a flying flip about what happens to the Mailman > community when they change their documentation or their URLs. I'm sure that it's not only Mailman that has been hurt by the changed URLs. Besides, I'd be very tempted to set up 302, or better 301, redirects from the old URLs to the new URLs. That way if /anyone/ does accidentally enter the old URL they are redirected to where they should be. Optionally for pages that merged or split, they could put a disambiguating page (like Wikipedia) allowing people to choose where they want to go. Grant. . . . From stephen at xemacs.org Tue Dec 30 04:13:44 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 12:13:44 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Users] help files In-Reply-To: <49597997.3060203@shub-internet.org> References: <49597997.3060203@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <87vdt2s6c7.fsf@xemacs.org> Brad Knowles writes: > So, they don't give a flying flip about what happens to the Mailman > community when they change their documentation or their URLs. Whatever happened to the principle that URLs shouldn't just disappear? How about TOOWTDI? And the closely related DRY (don't repeat yourself)? Doc people should be especially sensitive to these issues. :-( But I suppose it's too much to hope that they'll be persuaded. Would it be a good idea to make such references indirect? E.g., have a list.org URL that does a redirect to the Python URL? From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk Tue Dec 30 04:46:26 2008 From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 03:46:26 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] help files In-Reply-To: <49597997.3060203@shub-internet.org> References: <49597997.3060203@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <20081230034626.GG11843@amyl.org.uk> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 07:29:59PM -0600, Brad Knowles wrote: > on 12/29/08 5:54 PM, Mark Sapiro said: > > >I am aware the the python.org documentation URLs have all changed. > >Unfortunately, it's not a simple mapping. E.g., the above becomes > > > >or equivalently > >. > > Part of the problem is that the people who maintain the official > python.org documentation for this information feel that Mailman should > not be referencing their documentation, instead we should have our own > internal version of the same information. I'd say "why reinvent the wheel"... > So, they don't give a flying flip about what happens to the Mailman > community when they change their documentation or their URLs. Although 10years old, I still think http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI is a well-put document. > Since the release engineer for the next major version of Python is going > to be mentored by Barry Warsaw for that role, perhaps we can get some > sympathy there and hopefully get a bit more cooperation on things like this. Make sense to me. If not/it doesn't happen, perhaps a workaround could be to reference python.org docs via a list.org/pythonref/foo Redirect or similar? -- bit more maint, but could be scripted. -- A bureaucrat's idea of cleaning up his files is to make a copy of everything before he destroys it From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Tue Dec 30 05:57:38 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 22:57:38 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] help files In-Reply-To: <49598791.8080606@riverviewtech.net> References: <49597997.3060203@shub-internet.org> <49598791.8080606@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: <4959AA42.1020905@riverviewtech.net> On 12/29/2008 08:29 PM, Taylor, Grant wrote: > I'm sure that it's not only Mailman that has been hurt by the changed > URLs. Besides, I'd be very tempted to set up 302, or better 301, > redirects from the old URLs to the new URLs. That way if /anyone/ does > accidentally enter the old URL they are redirected to where they should > be. Optionally for pages that merged or split, they could put a > disambiguating page (like Wikipedia) allowing people to choose where > they want to go. Seeing as how both Stephen and Adam have mentioned redirects, I figured I'd add some more information. If the web server is running Apache and / or PHP, it would be trivial to create a new (sub)directory / structure that behaves much like TinyURL in that it would be something along the lines of redirecting URLs like "/<(sub)directory>/links/" (using URL re-writing) or "/<(sub)directory>/links?linkID=" (no URL re-writing) to a final destination. Using either method (URL rewriting or not) it would be trivial to create a two column database that has the requested URL and the redirect to URL to query and generate a redirection from. (If need be I can put together some example code to do this.) The only thing that comes to mind that would be a problem is when content either merges or splits across individual files. In this case, you would need some sort of landing page for visitors to decide where they want to go. A sign post for the fork in the road, if you will. Grant. . . . From mark at msapiro.net Tue Dec 30 19:01:58 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:01:58 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] help files In-Reply-To: <4959AA42.1020905@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: Grant Taylor wrote: > >Seeing as how both Stephen and Adam have mentioned redirects, I figured >I'd add some more information. You're talking to the wrong people. The problem is that the Mailman web interface and other documentation currently contains links to documentation on the python.org web site. These links have been broken by changes at python.org, a site over which we Mailman folks have no control and little influence. The only way redirects help us is in defending against the *next* change at python.org, we could change our links now to go to a site we do control and redirect from there to python.org. Then next time, we would only have to change the redirects. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk Tue Dec 30 19:09:29 2008 From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:09:29 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] help files In-Reply-To: References: <4959AA42.1020905@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: <20081230180929.GI11843@amyl.org.uk> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 10:01:58AM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote: > You're talking to the wrong people. The problem is that the Mailman web > interface and other documentation currently contains links to > documentation on the python.org web site. These links have been broken > by changes at python.org, a site over which we Mailman folks have no > control and little influence. > > The only way redirects help us is in defending against the *next* > change at python.org, we could change our links now to go to a site we > do control and redirect from there to python.org. Then next time, we > would only have to change the redirects. That's what I was suggesting. -- ``I speak better English than this villain Bush.'' (Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf, attrib.) From barry at python.org Wed Dec 31 00:18:27 2008 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:18:27 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] help files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C51EF43-4413-4559-A8E5-911AC8A9828C@python.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Dec 30, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > You're talking to the wrong people. The problem is that the Mailman > web > interface and other documentation currently contains links to > documentation on the python.org web site. These links have been broken > by changes at python.org, a site over which we Mailman folks have no > control and little influence. Well, sort of . I'm sorry, I've been out of town for a while so I've missed the thread. I gather that links on the Mailman admin u/i have broken with the new docs.python.org organization. I can ask the pdo admins and doc folks to set up redirects if possible, and may be able to set those redirects up myself. Please submit a bug report on the issue, indicating which links are broken. It might be best to do this on the Python bug tracker: bugs.python.org. Feel free to assign the issue to me (user name: barry). If I can't fix it, I'll try to find someone who can. - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSVqsRXEjvBPtnXfVAQIXuwP/b/M4HaLkAq8qQsIQoRHS4kIm9/0fohwi WslxCDpDnZyZk6IJEt7/5ZZvTH+/9VGV74tOtQ3MI6TcxKigk1lN9zmYVd/o1Ial ori0Ou+fnaFRj8pJVpuk5CSX+TvUKHGgoJaP9ID7h8aT5If6wRLFYEVOO4PTvTZO RhP22OCr07Q= =+O4f -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mark at msapiro.net Wed Dec 31 01:46:46 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:46:46 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] help files In-Reply-To: <4C51EF43-4413-4559-A8E5-911AC8A9828C@python.org> Message-ID: Barry Warsaw wrote: > >the new docs.python.org organization. I can ask the pdo admins and >doc folks to set up redirects if possible, and may be able to set >those redirects up myself. > >Please submit a bug report on the issue, indicating which links are >broken. It might be best to do this on the Python bug tracker: >bugs.python.org. Feel free to assign the issue to me (user name: >barry). If I can't fix it, I'll try to find someone who can. I put it in the tracker as . It was automagically assigned to georg.brandl, but I put barry on the copy list. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From barry at python.org Wed Dec 31 03:07:02 2008 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 21:07:02 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] help files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1C4D5EA2-AA13-4CCC-9DE9-C0620AFA658F@python.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Dec 30, 2008, at 7:46 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > Barry Warsaw wrote: >> >> the new docs.python.org organization. I can ask the pdo admins and >> doc folks to set up redirects if possible, and may be able to set >> those redirects up myself. >> >> Please submit a bug report on the issue, indicating which links are >> broken. It might be best to do this on the Python bug tracker: >> bugs.python.org. Feel free to assign the issue to me (user name: >> barry). If I can't fix it, I'll try to find someone who can. > > > I put it in the tracker as . It was > automagically assigned to georg.brandl, but I put barry on the copy > list. Thanks Mark. I'll ping Georg and see what we can do. - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSVrTxnEjvBPtnXfVAQKY0QP/c/EhCl1M6Q3kqds/4ZktKYV3La8J1bCT Abg+1qsfq6f+97dsB06G74UaZr4uX6oHjHeeIXY7R/dNcF5/6TSDkAxfXr+VmVa4 aFwDSlWPBL57GA3+nH3cRq/EunBFDg7O5wKoCAsy3XRd0UonUPPnDuKZOhbwa1Vz hlTjoocXVcs= =bGsr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Wed Dec 31 07:55:07 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 00:55:07 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] help files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <495B174B.7080502@riverviewtech.net> On 12/30/2008 12:01 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > You're talking to the wrong people. The problem is that the Mailman > web interface and other documentation currently contains links to > documentation on the python.org web site. These links have been > broken by changes at python.org, a site over which we Mailman folks > have no control and little influence. I'm really talking to (at) both sets of web developers / maintainers. Such a system should really be in place on both the Mailman /and/ Python.org web sites. However I do think that the Mailman documentation maintainers should point to web pages that they do have more control over. In my opinion it is bad form to point to something that you do not control and thus can't rely on. > The only way redirects help us is in defending against the *next* > change at python.org, we could change our links now to go to a site > we do control and redirect from there to python.org. Then next time, > we would only have to change the redirects. *Exactly!* I think this is what /should/ be done. And what I was (poorly) trying to get at. So, the offer for help with Apache / PHP / DB code is still applicable and still stands. :) Grant. . . . From brad at shub-internet.org Wed Dec 31 17:12:16 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:12:16 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] help files In-Reply-To: <495B174B.7080502@riverviewtech.net> References: <495B174B.7080502@riverviewtech.net> Message-ID: <495B99E0.1060400@shub-internet.org> on 12/31/08 12:55 AM, Grant Taylor said: > I think this is what /should/ be done. And what I was (poorly) trying > to get at. So, the offer for help with Apache / PHP / DB code is still > applicable and still stands. :) One trick here is exactly where we put our documentation on this matter. If we do it within the wiki, then most anyone should be able to update it on demand, although I'm not sure what additional load this might create on the wiki. We might also want to think twice about such a public page being easily editable by anyone that would be used so widely within a program like Mailman. If we try to do this on the main list.org site itself, I believe that Barry is the only one with the account and permissions to make these kinds of changes, in part because the site is actually owned by someone else (maybe John Viega, one of the original authors of Mailman?). -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Wed Dec 31 17:16:45 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:16:45 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] help files In-Reply-To: <495B99E0.1060400@shub-internet.org> References: <495B174B.7080502@riverviewtech.net> <495B99E0.1060400@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <495B9AED.4090509@riverviewtech.net> On 12/31/08 10:12, Brad Knowles wrote: > One trick here is exactly where we put our documentation on this matter. > If we do it within the wiki, then most anyone should be able to update > it on demand, although I'm not sure what additional load this might > create on the wiki. We might also want to think twice about such a > public page being easily editable by anyone that would be used so widely > within a program like Mailman. I'm betting that the wiki can't do a 302 redirect, which would be proper. I'm sure that something could be done to do an HTML "refresh" or a JavaScript "document.location", but neither of those are as nice as an HTTP 302 redirect. The 302 redirect operates at a much lower layer and is much easier on systems because clients don't have to process the downloaded page. It uses less bandwidth too. > If we try to do this on the main list.org site itself, I believe that > Barry is the only one with the account and permissions to make these > kinds of changes, in part because the site is actually owned by someone > else (maybe John Viega, one of the original authors of Mailman?). *nod* I got to thinking. I chose Apache / PHP because that's what I know best. But there is no reason (that I know of) that would prevent the same thing from being written in Python, or any other dynamic language for that matter. Grant. . . . From bernie at fantasyfarm.com Wed Dec 31 17:36:37 2008 From: bernie at fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:36:37 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Finding nomail subscribers Message-ID: <495B5945.13397.36BCE4C@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> Is there a way to find the 'nomail' subscribers to a list [or, for that matter, subscribers selected by other criteria: e.g., all subscribers getting the list via digest]? I got a bounce-set-to-nomail notice and I cleverly deleted it by mistake and I'd like to follow up but I don't see an easy way to find the two bouncees other than shuffle through the [fairly large] list, 18-members-at-a-time looking for the two 'nomail/bounce's. Is there an easier way? [command line is fine: I do have shell access to the mailman server] Thanks! /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie at fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From arogozin at comcast.net Wed Dec 31 05:03:39 2008 From: arogozin at comcast.net (Alex) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:03:39 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] yet another message filtering question References: Message-ID: <06C029A8CB2D4526AC70CA220B2C6EC2@fester> This was a two part question and Marc, thank you very much, second part was answered and it works great! Now to the first part - the key word was 'all' - is there a wildcard for - field that will cover all and any attachment filename extension? Or what would be the best way to remove all attachments in Mailman without installing any more software - i'm surprised i got this far as it is and don't want to push my luck. Regards and happy holidays to all! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Sapiro" To: "Alex" ; Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] yet another message filtering question > Alex wrote: > >>What would be the best way (if there is one) in Mailman to remove all >>attachments before maximum message size value sends the message to >>moderator >>for approval?. >>I have read archives about demime and stripmime but perl and other scripts >>make me nervous - i am not very good at this stuff and don't even know >>where >>to begin. > > > The issue you see arises because the Hold handler which enforces the > maximum message size comed earlier in the handler pipeline than the > MimeDel handler which does content filtering. > > What I do for my production site is add the following lines to mm_cfg.py > > # > # Put MimeDel ahead of Hold so "too big" is based on content filtered > # message. > # > GLOBAL_PIPELINE.remove('MimeDel') > GLOBAL_PIPELINE.insert(GLOBAL_PIPELINE.index('Hold'), 'MimeDel') > > (Only the last two are required. The first 4 are documentation of > what's being done). > > The result of this is the message is not held if content filtering > reduces its size below the max. Also, any messages held for > 'miscellaneous' reasons have already been content filtered, but > messages held for 'membership' reasons (non-member or moderated > member) will be content filtered after approval. > > -- > Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, > San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan > From mark at msapiro.net Wed Dec 31 18:03:07 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 09:03:07 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Finding nomail subscribers In-Reply-To: <495B5945.13397.36BCE4C@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> Message-ID: Bernie Cosell wrote: >Is there a way to find the 'nomail' subscribers to a list [or, for that >matter, subscribers selected by other criteria: e.g., all subscribers >getting the list via digest]? I got a bounce-set-to-nomail notice and I >cleverly deleted it by mistake and I'd like to follow up but I don't see >an easy way to find the two bouncees other than shuffle through the >[fairly large] list, 18-members-at-a-time looking for the two >'nomail/bounce's. Is there an easier way? [command line is fine: I do >have shell access to the mailman server] Thanks! bin/list_members --nomail=bybounce LISTNAME bin/list_members --help for other selection options. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From eperdue at comcast.net Tue Dec 30 20:10:45 2008 From: eperdue at comcast.net (Emmett Perdue) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:10:45 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to accept mail from a single IP / DNS name only for a given list Message-ID: <4F5A1B3E-32F1-479B-AED3-94C52F2CD365@comcast.net> 1st, forgive me if this has been answered before. I have searched high and low and can not find an answer to my question. How can I setup a list so that mail can be accepted ONLY from 1 IP address? As an example I have a list named abc at 123.com and it is setup as an announce list only accepting mail from 1 user with an address of bob at 123.com . How can I set this list up so that even if the mail appears to come from bob at 123.com the email will post to the list ONLY if bob at 123.com's email came from bobspc.123.com which has an an IP address of 123.456.789.246 Thanks! From brad at shub-internet.org Wed Dec 31 18:06:10 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:06:10 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] yet another message filtering question In-Reply-To: <06C029A8CB2D4526AC70CA220B2C6EC2@fester> References: <06C029A8CB2D4526AC70CA220B2C6EC2@fester> Message-ID: <495BA682.2090701@shub-internet.org> on 12/30/08 10:03 PM, Alex said: > Now to the first part - the key word was 'all' - is there a wildcard for > - filename extension> field that will cover all and any attachment > filename extension? Unfortunately, no. You can try using the other field, where you specify the attachment types you will allow. All others will be stripped. > Or what would be the best way to remove all attachments in Mailman > without installing any more software - i'm surprised i got this far as > it is and don't want to push my luck. You could also do attachment stripping inside your MTA, or in another program that gets called by your MTA before it calls Mailman. There are programs with names like "demime" and "stripmime" which might be helpful here. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From brad at shub-internet.org Wed Dec 31 18:07:30 2008 From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:07:30 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to accept mail from a single IP / DNS name only for a given list In-Reply-To: <4F5A1B3E-32F1-479B-AED3-94C52F2CD365@comcast.net> References: <4F5A1B3E-32F1-479B-AED3-94C52F2CD365@comcast.net> Message-ID: <495BA6D2.8000209@shub-internet.org> on 12/30/08 1:10 PM, Emmett Perdue said: > How can I setup a list so that mail can be accepted ONLY from 1 IP > address? As an example I have a list named abc at 123.com and it is setup > as an announce list only accepting mail from 1 user with an address of > bob at 123.com.. How can I set this list up so that even if the mail > appears to come from bob at 123.com the email will post to the list ONLY if > bob at 123.com's email came from bobspc.123.com which has an an IP address > of 123.456.789.246 That's really something that you need to do in your MTA. By the time the message gets to Mailman, we can no longer tell what IP address sent what. -- Brad Knowles If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk Wed Dec 31 18:10:20 2008 From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:10:20 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to accept mail from a single IP / DNS name only for a given list In-Reply-To: <4F5A1B3E-32F1-479B-AED3-94C52F2CD365@comcast.net> References: <4F5A1B3E-32F1-479B-AED3-94C52F2CD365@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20081231171020.GA18966@amyl.org.uk> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 02:10:45PM -0500, Emmett Perdue wrote: > 1st, forgive me if this has been answered before. I have searched high > and low and can not find an answer to my question. > > How can I setup a list so that mail can be accepted ONLY from 1 IP > address? As an example I have a list named abc at 123.com and it is setup > as an announce list only accepting mail from 1 user with an address of > bob at 123.com . How can I set this list up so that even if the mail appears > to come from bob at 123.com the email will post to the list ONLY if > bob at 123.com's email came from bobspc.123.com which has an an IP address of > 123.456.789.246 Sounds like the sort of thing to be handled by an MTA rule/ACL. (nb: ?3 of http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2606.txt) From mark at msapiro.net Wed Dec 31 18:34:39 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 09:34:39 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] yet another message filtering question In-Reply-To: <495BA682.2090701@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: Brad Knowles wrote: >on 12/30/08 10:03 PM, Alex said: > >> Now to the first part - the key word was 'all' - is there a wildcard for >> - > filename extension> field that will cover all and any attachment >> filename extension? > >Unfortunately, no. > >You can try using the other field, where you specify the attachment >types you will allow. All others will be stripped. > >> Or what would be the best way to remove all attachments in Mailman >> without installing any more software - i'm surprised i got this far as >> it is and don't want to push my luck. > >You could also do attachment stripping inside your MTA, or in another >program that gets called by your MTA before it calls Mailman. There are >programs with names like "demime" and "stripmime" which might be helpful >here. To give a little more detail, Mailman's content filtering is based primarily on MIME Content-Type:. You can filter based on file name extension, but that filter only affects MIME parts that have a filename or name parameter in the Content-Disposition: header or a name parameter in the Content-Type: header. Many MIME parts will not have a name/filename so they can't be filtered based on extension. The concept of attachment is not well defined in MIME. There is a Content-Disposition: header that can specify inline or attachment, but Mailman doesn't look at it. You can set pass_mime_types in content filtering to just text/plain, and this will filter out everything but text/plain parts. It will still pass text/plain "attachments" however. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Wed Dec 31 19:00:41 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:00:41 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to accept mail from a single IP / DNS name onlyfor a given list In-Reply-To: <4F5A1B3E-32F1-479B-AED3-94C52F2CD365@comcast.net> Message-ID: Emmett Perdue wrote: > >How can I setup a list so that mail can be accepted ONLY from 1 IP >address? As an example I have a list named abc at 123.com and it is setup >as an announce list only accepting mail from 1 user with an address of bob at 123.com >. How can I set this list up so that even if the mail appears to come >from bob at 123.com the email will post to the list ONLY if bob at 123.com's >email came from bobspc.123.com which has an an IP address of >123.456.789.246 You could set up header_filter_rules (Privacy options... -> Spam filters) for this list as follows: rule 1 regexps ^Received:.*bobspc\.123\.com ^Received:.*123\.456\.789\.246 action Accept rule 2 regexp . Action Discard However, An easier and better way to do this is to moderate Bob along with everyone else and have Bob post with a header Approved: password where password is the list's admin or moderator password. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From barry at list.org Wed Dec 31 21:25:18 2008 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:25:18 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Users] help files In-Reply-To: <495B99E0.1060400@shub-internet.org> References: <495B174B.7080502@riverviewtech.net> <495B99E0.1060400@shub-internet.org> Message-ID: <83A8AF6C-B9FC-4398-A8A5-A75DD163F834@list.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Dec 31, 2008, at 11:12 AM, Brad Knowles wrote: > on 12/31/08 12:55 AM, Grant Taylor said: > >> I think this is what /should/ be done. And what I was (poorly) >> trying to get at. So, the offer for help with Apache / PHP / DB >> code is still applicable and still stands. :) > > One trick here is exactly where we put our documentation on this > matter. If we do it within the wiki, then most anyone should be > able to update it on demand, although I'm not sure what additional > load this might create on the wiki. We might also want to think > twice about such a public page being easily editable by anyone that > would be used so widely within a program like Mailman. Load on the wiki is probably not too big of a deal; it's supposedly on a fairly beefy virtual host connected to a big pipe. The security issue is worth considering though. > If we try to do this on the main list.org site itself, I believe > that Barry is the only one with the account and permissions to make > these kinds of changes, in part because the site is actually owned > by someone else (maybe John Viega, one of the original authors of > Mailman?). Several people can actually edit the pages (and of course, I'd be happy to add permissions for you too Brad!), but it's true that I'm the only one that can push out new pages. It's easy for me to do though, so a quick ping in email or irc would do the trick. - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAklb1S4ACgkQ2YZpQepbvXHM1wCghuGWJkygJkRikvG/PZHSij/o mfMAn29gxYILJ3fVZddGTxBIvwSSG/tS =m/0n -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Wed Dec 31 21:48:08 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:48:08 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to accept mail from a single IP / DNS name onlyfor a given list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <495BDA88.3020301@riverviewtech.net> On 12/31/08 12:00, Mark Sapiro wrote: > You could set up header_filter_rules (Privacy options... -> Spam > filters) for this list as follows: Eh... I would think that this would be easy to fool by adding a bogus Received: header. So, IMHO this is not such a good idea. > However, An easier and better way to do this is to moderate Bob along > with everyone else and have Bob post with a header > > Approved: password > > where password is the list's admin or moderator password. I like this better. Grant. . . . From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Wed Dec 31 21:53:33 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:53:33 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] help files In-Reply-To: <83A8AF6C-B9FC-4398-A8A5-A75DD163F834@list.org> References: <495B174B.7080502@riverviewtech.net> <495B99E0.1060400@shub-internet.org> <83A8AF6C-B9FC-4398-A8A5-A75DD163F834@list.org> Message-ID: <495BDBCD.2050100@riverviewtech.net> On 12/31/08 14:25, Barry Warsaw wrote: > Load on the wiki is probably not too big of a deal; it's supposedly on a > fairly beefy virtual host connected to a big pipe. The security issue > is worth considering though. Can the wiki actually do the redirect(s) with out relying on an HTML refresh to a new location? Or better asked, will the wiki (as a system) allow you to return a HTTP Location header or will you be constrained with in the structure of the wiki? Grant. . . . From gtaylor at riverviewtech.net Wed Dec 31 21:56:15 2008 From: gtaylor at riverviewtech.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:56:15 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Users] yet another message filtering question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <495BDC6F.6000303@riverviewtech.net> On 12/31/08 11:34, Mark Sapiro wrote: > You can filter based on file name extension, but that filter only > affects MIME parts that have a filename or name parameter in the > Content-Disposition: header or a name parameter in the Content-Type: > header. Many MIME parts will not have a name/filename so they can't > be filtered based on extension. I don't know of any email client that will send an attached file with out the "name" parameter to the Content-Type: header. So, with this in mind, it should be possible to deduce that any MIME section that is not text/plain or text/html (or their multipart/alternative encapsulation) that does not have a "name" parameter is very likely embedded content and as such probably ok to remove. > The concept of attachment is not well defined in MIME. There is a > Content-Disposition: header that can specify inline or attachment, > but Mailman doesn't look at it. I think the word "attachment" needs to be better defined here. Are you referring to what an email author ""attaches to a message, or any thing else that is embed with in the message. I think the actual attachment (by the message author) will always have a Content-Disposition of attachment. It should only be embedded content that differs. Though, I know that some MUAs will embed pictures rather than attaching them. Grant. . . .