From joel.heenan at sensorynetworks.com  Wed Mar  1 00:19:56 2006
From: joel.heenan at sensorynetworks.com (Joel Heenan)
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 10:19:56 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] KNOWN_USERS + SpamAssassin discarding lots of mail
Message-ID: <4404DA9C.5020902@sensorynetworks.com>

I have in my mm_cfg.py :

KNOWN_SPAMMERS = [('X-Spam-Status', 'Yes')]

But for some reason this is discarding lots of mail. Is there some way I
can turn up the debugging so I can see why these messages are being
discarded? Where do these discarded messages go?

Thanks
-- 
Joel Heenan

From oliver at samera.com.py  Wed Mar  1 01:31:44 2006
From: oliver at samera.com.py (Oliver Schulze L.)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 21:31:44 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam check and bounced email's body
Message-ID: <4404EB70.7050009@samera.com.py>

(I do not found this problem on the archives)

Hi,
I use spamassassin to filter spam. So I configured a rule in mailman
that detect
the string "{Spam}" in the subject of the email and then defer the email.

The problem is that mailman sent to owner of the list the email that is
spam with
the body of the email. So, spamassassin detects the body and mark the email
as spam, and mailman differ the mail sended to the owner.

My question is:
how can I configure mailman to not sent the body of the email in the
notification
to the owner of the list?

Many thanks
Oliver

-- 
Oliver Schulze L.
<oliver at samera.com.py>




From msapiro at value.net  Wed Mar  1 02:01:05 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 17:01:05 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] KNOWN_USERS + SpamAssassin discarding lots of
	mail
In-Reply-To: <4404DA9C.5020902@sensorynetworks.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006022817010500787561e813@msapiro>

Joel Heenan wrote:
>
>I have in my mm_cfg.py :
>
>KNOWN_SPAMMERS = [('X-Spam-Status', 'Yes')]
>
>But for some reason this is discarding lots of mail. Is there some way I
>can turn up the debugging so I can see why these messages are being
>discarded? Where do these discarded messages go?

The messages are being discarded because they have an

X-Spam-Status: Yes

(case insensitive) header. The Message-IDs are logged in the vette log
with the message 'Message discarded, msgid: %s' where %s is replaced
by the message-id or 'n/a' if there isn't one. There is no debugging
knob other than modifying the code. The discarded messages evaporate
without a trace.

If you really think this is resulting in messages being discarded that
shouldn't be, I suggest you remove the KNOWN_SPAMMERS entry from
mm_cfg.py and instead, put

^X-Spam-Status:\s*Yes

in header_filter_rules for some of the problem lists with action Hold.
That way you'll get to see the messages.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Wed Mar  1 02:08:42 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 17:08:42 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam check and bounced email's body
In-Reply-To: <4404EB70.7050009@samera.com.py>
Message-ID: <PC1740200602281708420203a1249475@msapiro>

Oliver Schulze L.wrote:
>
>My question is:
>how can I configure mailman to not sent the body of the email in the
>notification
>to the owner of the list?

I think we did the best we can with this last week in the thread you
started at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-February/049499.html>.

To answer your specific question, without modifying Mailman code or
turning off admin_immed_notify, you can't.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Mar  1 02:15:01 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 02:15:01 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Integrating htdig
In-Reply-To: <22976ef80602271214o9fa1a54lf042bf2852c50cbd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20060227092835.056b1a58@207.99.63.98>
	<PC1740200602270955380140a8272ed2@msapiro>
	<22976ef80602271214o9fa1a54lf042bf2852c50cbd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0620070cc02aa5baec8e@[10.0.1.211]>

At 3:14 PM -0500 2006-02-27, Jeff Donsbach wrote:

>  Based on the lack of traffic to the mailman3-dev mailing list, is it a
>  safe assumption that Mailman3 development is stalled? (Please, devs,
>  don't take this as criticism. It is just a question).

	No, I wouldn't say it's stalled.  Maybe the online stuff is 
temporarily paused for the moment, but there's a Python sprint going 
on right now and I think a lot of people have been involved in 
helping to get that going, and are participating quite heavily in 
that process -- part of the sprint may be to do work on Mailman, 
among other things.

	I would expect things to pick up again once the sprint is over.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Mar  1 02:17:35 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 02:17:35 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web interface to Mailman list (read, reply,
 post...)
In-Reply-To: <1141082862.15010.27.camel@fiche.wps.com>
References: <1141075347.15010.19.camel@fiche.wps.com>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20060227134047.0569b368@207.99.63.98>
	<1141082862.15010.27.camel@fiche.wps.com>
Message-ID: <p0620070dc02aa63f0ba7@[10.0.1.211]>

At 3:27 PM -0800 2006-02-27, Tom Jennings wrote:

>  I realize that MM doesn't contain such a thing, I was hoping someone
>  would know of an external package that does this.
>
>  I was hoping I was just being an idiot and overlooking an obvious
>  package; that's the easiest thing to fix.

	Mailman was never intended to be a webmail system.  It was never 
intended to be a web forum system.  However, there are some patches 
floating around that you could use to integrate Mailman with a number 
of different web forum systems, if you have users that would prefer 
that method.

	Integrating with a webmail system would probably be a bit more 
work, since there's really not much on the Mailman side of things to 
be done -- it's mostly just setting up a webmail server and giving 
people a way to sign up for accounts, then giving them a way to use 
those accounts to send e-mail to the mailing lists you host -- which 
could just as easily be on a totally different machine.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From geethkrish_t at fastmail.net  Wed Mar  1 07:04:18 2006
From: geethkrish_t at fastmail.net (geetha)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 22:04:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MGCP + Reg CallId in CRCX
In-Reply-To: <44044047.80301@yahoo.com>
References: <1141126297.13951.255451849@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<44044047.80301@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1141193058.30885.255530163@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Actually I am new to this MGCP protocol.I am reading RFC 3435 for the
first time.
I am framing test cases also parallely.So kindly clarify my doubt.

Thanks,
Geetha.
On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 07:21:27 -0500, "Jim Popovitch" <jimpop at yahoo.com>
said:
> What make/model of MGC?  Also, do you know that it is presently not
> unique?
> 
> -Jim P.
> 
> geetha wrote:
> > 
> > Hi all,
> > Can any of you tell me how to validate the below scenario?
> > 
> > "Ensure that the IUT sends CRCX including Callid which is unique within
> > the list of call agents that control the same gateway."
> > 
> > IUT in the above scenario is Call Agent(MGC).
> > Kindly tell me the test procedure for the above scenario?
> > 
> > Any help will be appreciated.
> > 
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Geetha.
> 
-- 
  geetha
  geethkrish_t at fastmail.net

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders
                          wherever you are



From jimpop at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  1 09:50:14 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 03:50:14 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MGCP + Reg CallId in CRCX
In-Reply-To: <1141193058.30885.255530163@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1141126297.13951.255451849@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<44044047.80301@yahoo.com>
	<1141193058.30885.255530163@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <44056046.6060007@yahoo.com>

geetha wrote:
> Actually I am new to this MGCP protocol.I am reading RFC 3435 for the
> first time.

Great!  Everyone has to start off somewhere.

> I am framing test cases also parallely.So kindly clarify my doubt.

Well, I suggest that you contact the manufacturer, of the equipment in 
question, and ask them for a document on their "best practices" 
implementation.  Using that doc you should be able to easily define test 
parameters necessary to ensure a successful implementation.

Just out of curiosity, what does your interest in MGCP have to do with 
Mailman? :-)  I'm sure a lot of people are wondering this too. ;-)

-Jim P.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Mar  1 11:57:10 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 11:57:10 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing lists?
In-Reply-To: <44050590.60802@easent.net>
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net><Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet
	.com>	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>
	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>
	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net> <p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>
	<44050590.60802@easent.net>
Message-ID: <p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>

At 9:23 PM -0500 2006-02-28, Ed wrote:

>  The answer to this is simple.  If AOL tries that stupidity with the rest
>  of the ISP's of the world, then we / they should simply blacklist AOL.
>  I know we will if it comes to that.  AOL may be the proverbial
>  10,000lb gorilla, but the second they start charging to deliver normal
>  email to their customers, the rest of the world should simply stop
>  sending it to them.  End of problem, AOL will either rethink or lose
>  a ton [more] customers.

	Similar things have been said in the past when AOL has done 
stupid things, and yet they still survive, and even thrive.  Same for 
Microsoft.  Or the War Criminal in the White House.

	Frankly, despite all the wailing and gnashing of teeth by 
everyone else, I don't see any of these situations changing any time 
soon.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From jp at warpix.org  Wed Mar  1 14:34:24 2006
From: jp at warpix.org (John Poltorak)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 13:34:24 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 'no send' option
Message-ID: <20060301133424.X46@warpix.org>



Does Mailman have an option for keeping someone on a mailing list so that 
they are authorised to browse archives, but not receive any posts?






From ler at lerctr.org  Wed Mar  1 15:53:15 2006
From: ler at lerctr.org (Larry Rosenman)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 08:53:15 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 'no send' option
In-Reply-To: <20060301133424.X46@warpix.org>
Message-ID: <00f801c63d3f$df116150$0a0a0a0a@aus.pervasive.com>

John Poltorak wrote:
> Does Mailman have an option for keeping someone on a mailing list so
> that 
> they are authorised to browse archives, but not receive any posts?
> 
Yes, the "nomail" option on the membership page, which IIRC is also setable
by
the user.

LER

-- 
Larry Rosenman                     http://www.lerctr.org/~ler
Phone: +1 512-248-2683                 E-Mail: ler at lerctr.org
US Mail: 430 Valona Loop, Round Rock, TX 78681-3893



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Mar  1 18:15:24 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 11:15:24 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] KNOWN_USERS + SpamAssassin discarding lots of
	mail
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006022817010500787561e813@msapiro>
References: <4404DA9C.5020902@sensorynetworks.com>
	<PC17402006022817010500787561e813@msapiro>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603010915k5a5e3f9cvdf22dbedae90a1e3@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/28/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> If you really think this is resulting in messages being discarded that
> shouldn't be, I suggest you remove the KNOWN_SPAMMERS entry from
> mm_cfg.py and instead, put
>
> ^X-Spam-Status:\s*Yes
>
> in header_filter_rules for some of the problem lists with action Hold.

I just got done configuring something very similar, but I was having
problems. I was originally matching against '^X-Spam-Status: Yes',
which never matched. Removing the '^' did the trick. I'm not sure why
this is.

--
- Patrick Bogen


From lindahl at pbm.com  Wed Mar  1 20:46:03 2006
From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 11:46:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
Message-ID: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>

Yahoo is delaying delivery of mail from my domain because I look like
I'm spamming them -- my machine sends a lot of email to non-existent
Yahoo users. Well, that's because I get a lot of incoming spam from
fake Yahoo accounts to my Mailman, and I have it configured to send
back a "you aren't a member" message.

Is there any way to suppress "you aren't a member" only for Yahoo
senders?

-- greg




From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Wed Mar  1 21:52:39 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 12:52:39 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20060301124202.056d1620@207.99.63.98>

Greg Lindahl wrote:
>Yahoo is delaying delivery of mail from my domain because I look like
>I'm spamming them -- my machine sends a lot of email to non-existent
>Yahoo users. Well, that's because I get a lot of incoming spam from
>fake Yahoo accounts to my Mailman, and I have it configured to send
>back a "you aren't a member" message.
>
>Is there any way to suppress "you aren't a member" only for Yahoo
>senders?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Why not disable those notification messages completely and discard the 
incoming messages from nonmembers?

That is what I do on my lists.

My reasoning behind this is that if there is any mail from a nonmember, 
99.99% of the time it's a spammer that has sent that message. By silently 
discarding it, I am not confirming for them that there is a live e-mail 
address there and (hopefully) reducing the number of attempts to spam the 
address in the future. The very few remaining posts after the spam are 
usually because somebody has e-mailed something with the list address as a 
recipient to a non-member and that non-member has done a reply-to-all.

Either way, it's not something that I care about nor is it something that I 
believe needs an explanatory message sent back to the sender.

Just my thoughts on the matter, I think it makes life simpler.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From lindahl at pbm.com  Wed Mar  1 21:57:20 2006
From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 12:57:20 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20060301124202.056d1620@207.99.63.98>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20060301124202.056d1620@207.99.63.98>
Message-ID: <20060301205720.GA29508@bx9.net>

On Wed, Mar 01, 2006 at 12:52:39PM -0800, Dragon wrote:

> Why not disable those notification messages completely and discard the 
> incoming messages from nonmembers?

Because I have a lot of users with several email addresses who forget
which one they're subscribed as. I care about every posting.

> By silently discarding it, I am not confirming for them that there
> is a live e-mail address there and (hopefully) reducing the number
> of attempts to spam the address in the future.

Almost all of the spam I get has a faked return address, so this
reasoning does not apply.

-- greg


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Wed Mar  1 22:08:13 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 13:08:13 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <20060301205720.GA29508@bx9.net>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20060301124202.056d1620@207.99.63.98>
	<20060301205720.GA29508@bx9.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20060301130515.056d6150@207.99.63.98>

Greg Lindahl wrote:
>On Wed, Mar 01, 2006 at 12:52:39PM -0800, Dragon wrote:
>
> > Why not disable those notification messages completely and discard the
> > incoming messages from nonmembers?
>
>Because I have a lot of users with several email addresses who forget
>which one they're subscribed as. I care about every posting.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Well, perhaps I am just an uncaring old curmudgeon, but should that not be 
an issue for the user and not the list owner?

Again, just my opinion, do with it as you will.



Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From chris at westnet.com  Wed Mar  1 22:10:45 2006
From: chris at westnet.com (Christopher X. Candreva)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 16:10:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>

On Wed, 1 Mar 2006, Greg Lindahl wrote:

> Yahoo users. Well, that's because I get a lot of incoming spam from
> fake Yahoo accounts to my Mailman, and I have it configured to send
> back a "you aren't a member" message.
> 
> Is there any way to suppress "you aren't a member" only for Yahoo
> senders?

How about supressing them all together, so you aren't part of a DDOS attack 
on the people forged into the spam ?


==========================================================
Chris Candreva  -- chris at westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816
WestNet Internet Services of Westchester
http://www.westnet.com/


From lindahl at pbm.com  Wed Mar  1 22:29:19 2006
From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 13:29:19 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
Message-ID: <20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>

Like most people who've been running mailing lists for 20+ years, I
have strong opinions about list policy. Please address the mechanism
I asked for instead of seeking to discuss the policy issues.

-- greg



From chris at westnet.com  Wed Mar  1 22:34:18 2006
From: chris at westnet.com (Christopher X. Candreva)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 16:34:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011631510.6367@westnet.com>

On Wed, 1 Mar 2006, Greg Lindahl wrote:

> Like most people who've been running mailing lists for 20+ years, I

Funny, I would have guessed this was your first, comming from a marketing 
background with the selfishness you are showing.

> have strong opinions about list policy. Please address the mechanism
> I asked for instead of seeking to discuss the policy issues.

Would you like to provide the IP of your mailman server, so we can block 
just that and not your whole domain ?

Sorry, when you get 1,000 AN HOUR of autoreplies for mail you didn't send 
you look at it differently.

But you want operational,  put SpamAssassin or some other filter in front so 
you don't reply to spam at all. 



==========================================================
Chris Candreva  -- chris at westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816
WestNet Internet Services of Westchester
http://www.westnet.com/


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Mar  1 22:38:45 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 15:38:45 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603011338t733cafb1k7b9240ad5d73f617@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/1/06, Christopher X. Candreva <chris at westnet.com> wrote:
> > Is there any way to suppress "you aren't a member" only for Yahoo
> > senders?
Not that I know of- probably not without hacking the module that sends
them. However,  Since SpamDetect is the first thing in the pipeline,
if you can convince your mail system to scan the messages with
something like SpamAssassin first, then you can set
header_filter_rules for your lists to discard these spam messages.

- Patrick Bogen


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Mar  1 22:45:13 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 15:45:13 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00603011338t733cafb1k7b9240ad5d73f617@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<6fbe3da00603011338t733cafb1k7b9240ad5d73f617@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603011345k29c3c864o7f1aed0c978171c8@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/1/06, Patrick Bogen <pdbogen at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/1/06, Christopher X. Candreva <chris at westnet.com> wrote:
> > > Is there any way to suppress "you aren't a member" only for Yahoo
> > > senders?

Sorry, this should read 'Greg Lindhal <...> wrote:'

- Patrick Bogen


From lindahl at pbm.com  Wed Mar  1 22:45:29 2006
From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 13:45:29 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011631510.6367@westnet.com>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011631510.6367@westnet.com>
Message-ID: <20060301214529.GC647@bx9.net>

On Wed, Mar 01, 2006 at 04:34:18PM -0500, Christopher X. Candreva wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2006, Greg Lindahl wrote:
> 
> > Like most people who've been running mailing lists for 20+ years, I
> 
> Funny, I would have guessed this was your first, comming from a marketing 
> background with the selfishness you are showing.

I am new to this list, I didn't realize personal insults were so popular.

Note that Yahoo groups has the flaw you dislike.

-- greg



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Mar  1 22:48:51 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 15:48:51 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <20060301214529.GC647@bx9.net>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011631510.6367@westnet.com>
	<20060301214529.GC647@bx9.net>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603011348o198835cy8c008c986bf3a40@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/1/06, Greg Lindahl <lindahl at pbm.com> wrote:
> I am new to this list, I didn't realize personal insults were so popular.

List policy seems to be a pretty touch subject around here, especially
when it comes to lists being configured to act as good citizens, as it
were.

Personally, I'm also of the opinion that you're better off no replies
than sending replies to everyone. Thankfully, that isn't the choice
you have ot make; SpamDetect with some spam detection scheme of your
choice should get the job done.

- Patrick Bogen


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Mar  1 23:04:07 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 16:04:07 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <20060301215607.GD647@bx9.net>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011631510.6367@westnet.com>
	<20060301214529.GC647@bx9.net>
	<6fbe3da00603011348o198835cy8c008c986bf3a40@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060301215607.GD647@bx9.net>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603011404r7c7f346s647e60ba27130698@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/1/06, Greg Lindahl <lindahl at pbm.com> wrote:
> It doesn't seem that integrating spam detection is very easy,
> perhaps it should be made easier?
Integrating spam detection into mailman is actually quite easy- once
your MTA is configured for it. That is an MTA issue, not a mailman
issue. (If you'd like an analogy, this seems akin to complaining to
the gas station that your car's gas tank has to be filled from
underneath, and you'd like them to fix it)


> Well, let's just say that I found the list to be pretty lame. You made
> the only constructive comment, thanks.
And to be fair, I consider most of the other comments constructive; it
is often better/easier to fix a policy problem than to fix the way
that mailman works. In all fairness, your comment about your years of
experience was the first rude thing. It doesn't really do to ask for
help and then beat us over the head with your qualifications because
you don't want to hear the particular suggestions. When you ask for
help, you are throwing yourselves on our mercy, as it were- any pride
you may have should be long out the window.

- Patrick Bogen


From heather at madrone.com  Wed Mar  1 23:00:37 2006
From: heather at madrone.com (Heather Madrone)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 14:00:37 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <20060301205720.GA29508@bx9.net>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20060301124202.056d1620@207.99.63.98>
	<20060301205720.GA29508@bx9.net>
Message-ID: <p06230901c02bc9e0d27f@[192.168.123.138]>

At 12:57 PM -0800 3/1/06, Greg Lindahl wrote:
>On Wed, Mar 01, 2006 at 12:52:39PM -0800, Dragon wrote:
>
>> Why not disable those notification messages completely and discard the
>> incoming messages from nonmembers?
>
>Because I have a lot of users with several email addresses who forget
>which one they're subscribed as. I care about every posting.

In that case, just approve those messages and add the poster to the
approved senders list. 

-- 
Heather Madrone  (heather at madrone.com)  http://www.madrone.com

"Everything I never wanted to know I learned from the Internet."
    -- Morgayn Madrone, age 17



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Mar  1 23:03:36 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 23:03:36 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20060301124202.056d1620@207.99.63.98>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20060301124202.056d1620@207.99.63.98>
Message-ID: <p0620071cc02bc893177a@[10.0.1.211]>

At 12:52 PM -0800 2006-03-01, Dragon wrote:

>  Why not disable those notification messages completely and discard the
>  incoming messages from nonmembers?
>
>  That is what I do on my lists.
>
>  My reasoning behind this is that if there is any mail from a nonmember,
>  99.99% of the time it's a spammer that has sent that message. By silently
>  discarding it, I am not confirming for them that there is a live e-mail
>  address there and (hopefully) reducing the number of attempts to spam the
>  address in the future.

	We've had this discussion in the past.

	On the one hand, responding to spoofed e-mail addresses is a form 
of blowback, and could potentially be considered spam in and of 
itself.  This behaviour could be easily abused by attackers to cause 
your mail servers to DoS anyone else they want -- all they have to do 
is generate garbage e-mail at high rates of speed in the name of 
their victim.

	On the other hand, not informing people that their posts are not 
being accepted to the mailing list (because they're not subscribed, 
or whatever) is guaranteed to cause you to lose legitimate messages. 
For example, if you run a mailing list intended to support the 
leading Free/Open Source Developers conference in Europe and you set 
up your list this way, you are guaranteed to get a lot of grief from 
various subscribers on the list because posts they made months ago 
were silently dropped and never went through.  Now that months have 
passed and they asked their question with a reasonable amount of time 
for a response, but the question never got through, well ... everyone 
is screwed.

>  Either way, it's not something that I care about nor is it something that I
>  believe needs an explanatory message sent back to the sender.

	If you accept that nothing important ever gets sent to the list, 
and that any message can be casually thrown away for any reason, then 
that's a reasonable response.

	Otherwise, you may have some tougher choices to make.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Mar  1 23:12:24 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 23:12:24 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011631510.6367@westnet.com>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011631510.6367@westnet.com>
Message-ID: <p0620071dc02bcb1aaf09@[10.0.1.211]>

At 4:34 PM -0500 2006-03-01, Christopher X. Candreva wrote:

>>  Like most people who've been running mailing lists for 20+ years, I
>
>  Funny, I would have guessed this was your first, comming from a marketing
>  background with the selfishness you are showing.

	Selfishness?  I think you might want to look in the mirror first.

>>  have strong opinions about list policy. Please address the mechanism
>>  I asked for instead of seeking to discuss the policy issues.
>
>  Would you like to provide the IP of your mailman server, so we can block
>  just that and not your whole domain ?

	We run python.org this way.  How about we just ban you from all 
the lists on python.org?

>  Sorry, when you get 1,000 AN HOUR of autoreplies for mail you didn't send
>  you look at it differently.

	When you get 2GB worth of syslog data in less than a 24 hour 
period of time, or when you've worked at a site handling tens of 
millions of e-mail messages per day, or when you've been personally 
blamed for taking out all e-mail across the entire Internet and 
resulting in the bankruptcies of more than a few companies as well as 
some personal bankruptcies as well, you develop a certain perspective 
on things.

>  But you want operational,  put SpamAssassin or some other filter in front so
>  you don't reply to spam at all.

	Just because you run SpamAssassin (or any other anti-spam 
filtering system) doesn't mean that some spam won't slip through. 
Run a large enough site, and when even a relatively small percentage 
slips through, you're still talking about large amounts of bogus 
stuff that you've got to try to deal with.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From data2 at cablespeed.com  Wed Mar  1 22:23:40 2006
From: data2 at cablespeed.com (Jon Krause)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 16:23:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net><6.2.1.2.2.20060301124202.056d1620@207.99.63.98>
	<20060301205720.GA29508@bx9.net>
Message-ID: <048101c63d76$691d21f0$05dc3818@mdm246a3e4f6fc>

Wednesday, March 01, 2006 3:57 PM - Greg wrote:

> > Why not disable those notification messages completely and discard the
> > incoming messages from nonmembers?
>
> Because I have a lot of users with several email addresses who forget
> which one they're subscribed as. I care about every posting.
>
> > By silently discarding it, I am not confirming for them that there
> > is a live e-mail address there and (hopefully) reducing the number
> > of attempts to spam the address in the future.
>
> Almost all of the spam I get has a faked return address, so this
> reasoning does not apply.
>
> -- greg
> ------------------------------------------------------

Greg,
    Imagine I'm evil-spammer-dude.  Once I have your mailing list addresses
imagine I generate 20,000 spams to one or all of your lists.  Each spam has
a forged address from the @yahoo.com domain.  Your list in turn "replies"
most courteously to the "forged address" that the address is not a member
and can't post to your list.  Now ~you~ are spamming Greg!
    Well, as evil-spammer-dude, I could not thank you more!  You are helping
me get my spam into the yahoo.com network.  You see Greg, as
evil-spammer-dude I don't care how it gets there, it doesn't have to look
pretty.  It can come packaged as a bounce.

Yahoo is doing what they have to do, sorry about your luck.

Have you received similar emails in your personal mailbox?

    I work at an ISP were we have been targeted with a form of this
"attack".  Thanks to IDP and mailserver tuning we have been able to keep our
60,000 email accounts flowing fairly smoothly with little hardware impact.
I have heard of other ISP's that have not faired so well.  Don't be
surprised or angered if you get targeted by one or more of these people and
it brings your servers to a screeching halt.  You are apparently on
someone's radar....

Best of luck, Jon



From jonathan at nerds.net  Wed Mar  1 23:43:07 2006
From: jonathan at nerds.net (Jonathan Dill)
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 17:43:07 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
Message-ID: <4406237B.80604@nerds.net>

Are you getting explicit REJECT messages from Yahoo! or some other error?

For what it's worth, I think Yahoo may have changed something internally 
lately, like their DNS MX records, you may want to check out what 
address your MTA is trying to send the messages to and compare to dig or 
nslookup for the Yahoo MX records.  Maybe you have some stale DNS info, 
or old messages in the queue that are trying to send to the wrong address.

You may also want to check out some of the RBL lists to find out if you 
are on any of them, there are some very good multi-RBL search tools out 
there.  Chances are that Yahoo! is rejecting you based on RBL data from 
someone else and not their own internal data.  Google "RBL lookup tool" 
or try one of these:

http://www.completewhois.com/rbl_lookup.htm
http://www.mail-abuse.com/lookup.html
http://www.senderbase.org/search

Greg Lindahl wrote:
> Yahoo is delaying delivery of mail from my domain because I look like
> I'm spamming them -- my machine sends a lot of email to non-existent
> Yahoo users. Well, that's because I get a lot of incoming spam from
> fake Yahoo accounts to my Mailman, and I have it configured to send
> back a "you aren't a member" message.
>   
Jonathan


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Mar  1 23:55:12 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 23:55:12 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00603011404r7c7f346s647e60ba27130698@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011631510.6367@westnet.com>
	<20060301214529.GC647@bx9.net>
	<6fbe3da00603011348o198835cy8c008c986bf3a40@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060301215607.GD647@bx9.net>
	<6fbe3da00603011404r7c7f346s647e60ba27130698@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0620071ec02bd11816bf@[10.0.1.211]>

At 4:04 PM -0600 2006-03-01, Patrick Bogen wrote:

>  Integrating spam detection into mailman is actually quite easy- once
>  your MTA is configured for it.

	That's one way to do it, yes.  However, the FAQ does detail other 
methods that can also be used, as well as MTA integration.

>                                  That is an MTA issue, not a mailman
>  issue.

	Don't blindly discount alternative methods just because you have 
a personal preference for a particular technique yourself.

	I personally believe that the MTA integration method is superior, 
but I accept that there are plenty of other people out there who 
might feel different -- and that's why the FAQ discusses multiple 
methods.

>>  Well, let's just say that I found the list to be pretty lame. You made
>>  the only constructive comment, thanks.

	Greg -- There were some lame comments, yes.  However, please 
don't tar all of us with the brush you've constructed based on the 
feedback of a small number of people who have responded so far.

	OTOH, there is a FAQ Wizard, and there are searchable archives. 
Before posting questions like this to the list, it would help 
everyone if you searched those before posting here.

>  And to be fair, I consider most of the other comments constructive; it
>  is often better/easier to fix a policy problem than to fix the way
>  that mailman works.

	Mailman can be difficult to fix, yes.  And sometimes it doesn't 
necessarily work as well as we would like.  But we go well out of our 
way to try to ensure that each admin can have Mailman work the way 
they want (more or less), even though some admins will choose one way 
and other admins will choose another.

	This is why we have a configuration file.

>                       In all fairness, your comment about your years of
>  experience was the first rude thing.

	Given the circumstances, I didn't see it as being overly rude. 
He was dealing with the rude responses that he was getting, and 
trying to get people to focus on answering the question that was 
asked.

	As someone with over twenty years experience with Unix and over 
fifteen years of experience as a professional Unix systems 
administrator, specializing in Internet e-mail (among other things), 
and having been the first Internet Mail Operations person hired by 
AOL and responsible for technical leadership in growing their 
Internet Mail Operations group by over a factor of 1000 in terms of 
hardware and load handled, I can understand that.

>                                        It doesn't really do to ask for
>  help and then beat us over the head with your qualifications because
>  you don't want to hear the particular suggestions.

	True enough, but he's not the only person guilty of doing so.  In 
his defense, he was being attacked, and although he could have chosen 
better ways of handling that, the method he did choose wasn't that 
excessively bad.

>                                                      When you ask for
>  help, you are throwing yourselves on our mercy, as it were- any pride
>  you may have should be long out the window.

	True enough.  We would all be better served by remembering this.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From joel.heenan at sensorynetworks.com  Thu Mar  2 00:00:47 2006
From: joel.heenan at sensorynetworks.com (Joel Heenan)
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 10:00:47 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] KNOWN_USERS + SpamAssassin discarding lots of
 mail
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00603010915k5a5e3f9cvdf22dbedae90a1e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4404DA9C.5020902@sensorynetworks.com>	
	<PC17402006022817010500787561e813@msapiro>
	<6fbe3da00603010915k5a5e3f9cvdf22dbedae90a1e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4406279F.904@sensorynetworks.com>



Patrick Bogen wrote:
> On 2/28/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> 
>>If you really think this is resulting in messages being discarded that
>>shouldn't be, I suggest you remove the KNOWN_SPAMMERS entry from
>>mm_cfg.py and instead, put
>>
>>^X-Spam-Status:\s*Yes
>>
>>in header_filter_rules for some of the problem lists with action Hold.
> 
> 
> I just got done configuring something very similar, but I was having
> problems. I was originally matching against '^X-Spam-Status: Yes',
> which never matched. Removing the '^' did the trick. I'm not sure why
> this is.

I'll do some research if I get time today but I'm fairly sure something
is borked with this spam filtering. Looking through the code I can see
that if a header is not found its not supposed to return a spam match.
The other thing I've noticed is that owner's don't seem to get spam
scanned. Still, our behaviour was that

KNOWN_SPAMMERS = [('X-Spam-Status','Yes')]

caused all emails from non-owners to be silently discarded.

At this stage I'm following the advice by not using KNOWN_SPAMMERS and
concentrating on per list measures. Thanks for your help.
-- 
Joel Heenan
Sensory Networks
Ph: +61 2 8322 2744 Fax: +61 2 9475 0316

From lindahl at pbm.com  Thu Mar  2 00:03:46 2006
From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 15:03:46 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00603011404r7c7f346s647e60ba27130698@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011631510.6367@westnet.com>
	<20060301214529.GC647@bx9.net>
	<6fbe3da00603011348o198835cy8c008c986bf3a40@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060301215607.GD647@bx9.net>
	<6fbe3da00603011404r7c7f346s647e60ba27130698@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060301230346.GA10468@bx9.net>

On Wed, Mar 01, 2006 at 04:04:07PM -0600, Patrick Bogen wrote:

> In all fairness, your comment about your years of
> experience was the first rude thing.

Ah, I see. So unsolicited and unwanted advice is OK, but explaining
why my policy opinions are strongly held is rude? All I was aiming at
was avoiding a non-constructive discussion.

> When you ask for
> help, you are throwing yourselves on our mercy, as it were-

Uh, that's not the way I treat either professional tech support or
open-source mailing lists. I guess I'm in a minority in the Mailman
community.

-- greg



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Thu Mar  2 00:30:49 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 17:30:49 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] KNOWN_USERS + SpamAssassin discarding lots of
	mail
In-Reply-To: <4406279F.904@sensorynetworks.com>
References: <4404DA9C.5020902@sensorynetworks.com>
	<PC17402006022817010500787561e813@msapiro>
	<6fbe3da00603010915k5a5e3f9cvdf22dbedae90a1e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4406279F.904@sensorynetworks.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603011530s56e644fai67b71d6e2a34cb1f@mail.gmail.com>

Mark Saprio wrote:
> The messages are being discarded because they have an
>
> X-Spam-Status: Yes

Mark, this isn't strictly correct, I think. cre.search() is going to
look for any place in the string where the regex matches, so they're
*actually* being discarded because they have a header:
X-Spam-Status: .*Yes.*

(Assuming the leading space is stripped when the header value is
stored in a message- this seems like reasonable behaviour to me, but
I'm not sure what the protocol says about spaces there.)

Now, here's the problem with this.

X-Spam-Status for a non-spam message may look like:

X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 ...

(and keeps going for a while.)

As should be pretty obvious, 'Yes' case-insensitively is found in
'BAYES'. This won't occur with the header_filter_rules, because they
match the header as a line, rather than treating the value separately.
So, as an alternative, it should be possible to use a KNOWN_SPAMMER of
('X-Spam-Status', '^Yes').

On 3/1/06, Joel Heenan <joel.heenan at sensorynetworks.com> wrote:
> I'll do some research if I get time today but I'm fairly sure something
> is borked with this spam filtering. Looking through the code I can see
> that if a header is not found its not supposed to return a spam match.
My SpamDetect module looks alright (to my largely python-ignorant
eyes). See above for why this wasn't working. I think it's pretty
unlikely that any of your messages /don't/ have the X-Spam-Status,
assuming you're doing your own scanning.

- Patrick Bogen


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Mar  2 00:44:36 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 00:44:36 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <20060301230346.GA10468@bx9.net>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011631510.6367@westnet.com>
	<20060301214529.GC647@bx9.net>
	<6fbe3da00603011348o198835cy8c008c986bf3a40@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060301215607.GD647@bx9.net>
	<6fbe3da00603011404r7c7f346s647e60ba27130698@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060301230346.GA10468@bx9.net>
Message-ID: <p06200721c02bdec14a63@[10.0.1.211]>

At 3:03 PM -0800 2006-03-01, Greg Lindahl wrote:

>>  In all fairness, your comment about your years of
>>  experience was the first rude thing.
>
>  Ah, I see. So unsolicited and unwanted advice is OK, but explaining
>  why my policy opinions are strongly held is rude? All I was aiming at
>  was avoiding a non-constructive discussion.

	I think there may have been better ways to try to get people to 
focus on answering the technical question and get away from the 
policy issues, but it would also have helped if you had consulted the 
FAQ Wizard and the list archives before posting.

	I think there's enough blame to go around on this issue.

>>  When you ask for
>>  help, you are throwing yourselves on our mercy, as it were-
>
>  Uh, that's not the way I treat either professional tech support or
>  open-source mailing lists. I guess I'm in a minority in the Mailman
>  community.

	I don't think that the Mailman community is radically different 
from other open-source communities I know of.  We have our share of 
people who have certain strongly held beliefs and refuse to accept 
that any other beliefs could possibly be held with any validity, and 
we have our share of people who are always extremely helpful and even 
usually avoid pointing out obvious oversights like failing to check 
the FAQ.

	As I said before, please don't judge the whole group by the 
actions of a few, especially just one or two.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp  Thu Mar  2 00:53:46 2006
From: tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp (Tokio Kikuchi)
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 08:53:46 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] KNOWN_USERS + SpamAssassin discarding lots of
 mail
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00603011530s56e644fai67b71d6e2a34cb1f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4404DA9C.5020902@sensorynetworks.com>	<PC17402006022817010500787561e813@msapiro>	<6fbe3da00603010915k5a5e3f9cvdf22dbedae90a1e3@mail.gmail.com>	<4406279F.904@sensorynetworks.com>
	<6fbe3da00603011530s56e644fai67b71d6e2a34cb1f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4406340A.1000400@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>

Patrick Bogen wrote:

> Now, here's the problem with this.
> 
> X-Spam-Status for a non-spam message may look like:
> 
> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 ...
> 
> (and keeps going for a while.)
> 
> As should be pretty obvious, 'Yes' case-insensitively is found in
> 'BAYES'. This won't occur with the header_filter_rules, because they
> match the header as a line, rather than treating the value separately.
> So, as an alternative, it should be possible to use a KNOWN_SPAMMER of
> ('X-Spam-Status', '^Yes').
> 

Or, you should use:
('x-spam-flag', 'yes'),

Cheers,
-- 
Tokio Kikuchi, tkikuchi@ is.kochi-u.ac.jp
http://weather.is.kochi-u.ac.jp/


From lindahl at pbm.com  Thu Mar  2 01:29:56 2006
From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 16:29:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <p06200721c02bdec14a63@[10.0.1.211]>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011631510.6367@westnet.com>
	<20060301214529.GC647@bx9.net>
	<6fbe3da00603011348o198835cy8c008c986bf3a40@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060301215607.GD647@bx9.net>
	<6fbe3da00603011404r7c7f346s647e60ba27130698@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060301230346.GA10468@bx9.net>
	<p06200721c02bdec14a63@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <20060302002956.GB10468@bx9.net>

On Thu, Mar 02, 2006 at 12:44:36AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote:

> 	I think there may have been better ways to try to get people to 
> focus on answering the technical question and get away from the 
> policy issues, but it would also have helped if you had consulted the 
> FAQ Wizard and the list archives before posting.

Thanks for the suggestion; I did look before posting. The way other
people interpret my problem, there is a solution in the FAQ. The way I
interpret my problem, there isn't -- where I looked. It wasn't obvious
to me that the FAQ Wizard was a completely different set of information
from the FAQ.

> We have our share of 
> people who have certain strongly held beliefs and refuse to accept 
> that any other beliefs could possibly be held with any validity,

I was expecting that; that's why I was citing 20 years of mailing list
experience, in order to explain that my beliefs were strongly held,
and thus we shouldn't argue about them.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that some people find that rude.

-- greg



From lindahl at pbm.com  Thu Mar  2 01:42:24 2006
From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 16:42:24 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <4406237B.80604@nerds.net>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net> <4406237B.80604@nerds.net>
Message-ID: <20060302004224.GC10468@bx9.net>

On Wed, Mar 01, 2006 at 05:43:07PM -0500, Jonathan Dill wrote:

> Are you getting explicit REJECT messages from Yahoo! or some other error?

I'm getting 4XX frequently, and occasionally:

7E7E824F81      634 Wed Mar  1 09:03:21  bar at baz.com
(host mx3.mail.yahoo.com[67.28.113.10] said: 451 VS5-MF Excessive unknown recipients - possible Open Relay http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/mail/spam/spam-18.html (#4.4.5) 205.217.153.43 (in reply to MAIL FROM command))
                                         foo at yahoo.com

What I think this means is that they're noticing that I originate too
much email to Yahoo users that don't exist. It comes and goes, which is
what you would expect for a real-time check.

(FYI, I'm not an open relay, and I'm not in the RBL's you suggested I
check.)

-- greg




From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar  2 02:32:55 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 17:32:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] KNOWN_USERS + SpamAssassin discarding lots of
	mail
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00603011530s56e644fai67b71d6e2a34cb1f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC174020060301173255064082d69cb7@msapiro>

Patrick Bogen wrote:

>Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> The messages are being discarded because they have an
>>
>> X-Spam-Status: Yes
>
>Mark, this isn't strictly correct, I think. cre.search() is going to
>look for any place in the string where the regex matches, so they're
>*actually* being discarded because they have a header:
>X-Spam-Status: .*Yes.*


You are correct. I was thinking of Spamassassin's X-Spam-Flag: header
which is either "X-Spam-Flag: YES" or absent, and which is much safer
to test than X-Spam-Status: for exactly these reasons.


>(Assuming the leading space is stripped when the header value is
>stored in a message- this seems like reasonable behaviour to me, but
>I'm not sure what the protocol says about spaces there.)


SpamDetect, when checking KNOWN_SPAMMERS uses the get_all() message
method to get the contents of all the headers of a type. In this case,
a list of the contents of all the X-Spam-Status: headers in the
message. Leading spaces between "X-Spam-Status:" and the first
non-blank of the rest of the header are stripped, but trailing spaces
if any are not.


>Now, here's the problem with this.
>
>X-Spam-Status for a non-spam message may look like:
>
>X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 ...
>
>(and keeps going for a while.)
>
>As should be pretty obvious, 'Yes' case-insensitively is found in
>'BAYES'. This won't occur with the header_filter_rules, because they
>match the header as a line, rather than treating the value separately.
>So, as an alternative, it should be possible to use a KNOWN_SPAMMER of
>('X-Spam-Status', '^Yes').


Correct, but I'd still use X-Spam-Flag:.


>I think it's pretty
>unlikely that any of your messages /don't/ have the X-Spam-Status,
>assuming you're doing your own scanning.


I think that's correct and may well explain why they were all deleted.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jonathan at nerds.net  Thu Mar  2 02:39:55 2006
From: jonathan at nerds.net (Jonathan Dill)
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 20:39:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <20060302004224.GC10468@bx9.net>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net> <4406237B.80604@nerds.net>
	<20060302004224.GC10468@bx9.net>
Message-ID: <44064CEB.9020402@nerds.net>

Greg Lindahl wrote:
> 7E7E824F81      634 Wed Mar  1 09:03:21  bar at baz.com
> (host mx3.mail.yahoo.com[67.28.113.10] said: 451 VS5-MF Excessive unknown recipients - possible Open Relay http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/mail/spam/spam-18.html (#4.4.5) 205.217.153.43 (in reply to MAIL FROM command))
>                                          foo at yahoo.com
>   
I find a lot of stuff by Googling "VS5-MF Excessive unknown recipients", 
apparently Yahoo may be doing something that is not RFC-compliant, so 
your MTA doesn't know that it should stop trying to resend the message:

http://forum.futuresoft.com/forum/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=248
> (FYI, I'm not an open relay, and I'm not in the RBL's you suggested I
> check.)
>   
I'm not an open relay either, but it would not be the first time that a 
server that is not an open relay got on an RBL either--I have seen that 
happen at least twice.  Also, there are some st00pid RBLs out there run 
by people who don't know what they are doing.

Also, it doesn't sound like the problem in your case, but it's possible 
for a server to have eg. a vulnerable formail script or the like, so it 
is not an open relay per se, but still routing spam.

Jonathan


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Mar  2 02:25:03 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 02:25:03 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net><Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westne
	t .com>	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>
	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>
	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net> <p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>
	<44050590.60802@easent.net> <p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>

At 11:57 AM +0100 2006-03-01, Brad Knowles wrote:

>  	Frankly, despite all the wailing and gnashing of teeth by everyone else,
>  I don't see any of these situations changing any time soon.

	If anyone wants to see a more completely laid out and fully 
explained discussion of why Goodmail is such a bad idea, please see 
<http://www2.dearaol.com/faq> and <http://www2.dearaol.com/blog>.

	While I definitely believe that they are right, and I do have 
personal experience with how the AOL marketing department works, I 
believe that these efforts are unlikely to be successful -- at best, 
I fear that they may only slightly delay things.


	However, I do hope that I can be proved wrong in this case.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From lindahl at pbm.com  Thu Mar  2 03:09:37 2006
From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 18:09:37 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <44064CEB.9020402@nerds.net>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net> <4406237B.80604@nerds.net>
	<20060302004224.GC10468@bx9.net> <44064CEB.9020402@nerds.net>
Message-ID: <20060302020937.GA29054@bx9.net>

On Wed, Mar 01, 2006 at 08:39:55PM -0500, Jonathan Dill wrote:

> I find a lot of stuff by Googling "VS5-MF Excessive unknown recipients", 
> apparently Yahoo may be doing something that is not RFC-compliant, so 
> your MTA doesn't know that it should stop trying to resend the message:

Interesting forum posting -- since it's from June 2005, doesn't look
like this will be resolved any time soon.

I'm leaning towards greylisting with postgrey, it looks like it's a
lot cheaper than the cpu power needed to run all that spam through
spamassassin.

BTW, "discard_these_nonmembers" looks like it does exactly what I
originally asked for. Doh!

-- g


From rebjr at dbpromos.com  Thu Mar  2 04:54:55 2006
From: rebjr at dbpromos.com (Bob Bales)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 21:54:55 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] simple?problem
References: <20060117200419.60249.qmail@web30510.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <026d01c63dad$11eba410$6401a8c0@main>


We keep having an issue pop up. A non-member of our net tried to post. The 
moderator went in and disallowed his post. Now everyday we get the same 
message that there is a post made by this person that needs attention. When 
we go into the control panel it says that there are no actions that need to 
be taken.

??

Bob Bales 


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar  2 06:36:20 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 21:36:20 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] simple?problem
In-Reply-To: <026d01c63dad$11eba410$6401a8c0@main>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030121362007962249b150@msapiro>

Bob Bales wrote:
>
>We keep having an issue pop up. A non-member of our net tried to post. The 
>moderator went in and disallowed his post. Now everyday we get the same 
>message that there is a post made by this person that needs attention. When 
>we go into the control panel it says that there are no actions that need to 
>be taken.


Do you have more that one Mailman instance on your server? Did you
upgrade at some point and change the locations of things?

You are getting this daily message because a cron/checkdbs job is
running (presumably as it should) and is finding this request in a
lists/<listname>/request.pck file, but when you go the the admindb
interface (if that's what you mean), it doesn't find the request in
lists/<listname>/request.pck.

Normally this means there is more than one lists/ directory and the
cron/checkdbs job is looking at one and the admindb interface is
looking at another.

Of course, if by "the control panel" you mean some cPanel or similar
thing and not the Mailman admindb web interface, see
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq06.011.htp>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Mar  2 07:07:11 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 15:07:11 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]> (Brad Knowles's message of
	"Thu, 2 Mar 2006 02:25:03 +0100")
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net> <Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westne
	t .com> <43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>
	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>
	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net> <p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>
	<44050590.60802@easent.net> <p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>
	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

>>>>> "Brad" == Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> writes:

    Brad> 	If anyone wants to see a more completely laid out and
    Brad> fully explained discussion of why Goodmail is such a bad
    Brad> idea, please see <http://www2.dearaol.com/faq> and
    Brad> <http://www2.dearaol.com/blog>.

*sigh*  I see lots of explanation of why this is going to hurt
"legitimate" bulk emailers there, but ... isn't that obvious?  OTOH,
very little about how it hurts the typical AOL customer.  In fact,
it's not crystal clear to me that it does, on average.  Remember, this
is the same class of user that you denigrate as "if you think that's
stupid AOL customer behavior, let me tell you it get MUCH worse than
that".  Maybe it's worth it to such users to lose a few mailings from
non-profits in order to instill more discipline in the less
professional half of bulk-emailing businesses.

>From the point of view of the professional economist (that's me), "pay
per mail" (even pay-per-byte) is a concept that should be seriously
considered.  It's obvious that there are problems with managing the
payments, that it will be expensive---but both the monopoly USPS and
the fairly competitive courier services manage such businesses.  And
it's easy to see that it will have some disciplining effect on the
"gray-zone" bulk emailers.[1]

That said, I'm perfectly willing to believe that the move to
pay-per-mail is bad for everybody (even for AOL and Goodmail in the
long run).  In fact, I do believe that.  And I believe it's clearly
socially detrimental as implemented by Goodmail.  But I would like to
see the case made more strongly, because I know a lot of business
people and economists who _won't_.

    Brad> 	While I definitely believe that they are right, and I
    Brad> do have personal experience with how the AOL marketing
    Brad> department works, I believe that these efforts are unlikely
    Brad> to be successful -- at best, I fear that they may only
    Brad> slightly delay things.

"Imminent death of the 'net predicted!  Film at 11."




Footnotes: 
[1]  For example, I've recently begun to receive a lot of invitations
from people I don't know to speak at conferences at my own expense.
Some of these are almost worth considering, but really, I'd like them
all to go away.  And some of them are sufficiently far from my field
or the fields of plausible sources for "carefully selected
advertisers" that they're really spam in spirit, even if the list came
from an organization where I opted in on the "occasional mailings".

-- 
School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
University of Tsukuba                    Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
               Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
              ask what your business can "do for" free software.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Mar  2 07:22:17 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 15:22:17 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Integrating htdig
In-Reply-To: <22976ef80602271214o9fa1a54lf042bf2852c50cbd@mail.gmail.com> (Jeff
	Donsbach's message of "Mon, 27 Feb 2006 15:14:28 -0500")
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20060227092835.056b1a58@207.99.63.98>
	<PC1740200602270955380140a8272ed2@msapiro>
	<22976ef80602271214o9fa1a54lf042bf2852c50cbd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <877j7d9xie.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

>>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Donsbach <jeff.donsbach at gmail.com> writes:

    Jeff> Based on the lack of traffic to the mailman3-dev mailing
    Jeff> list, is it a safe assumption that Mailman3 development is
    Jeff> stalled?  (Please, devs, don't take this as criticism. It is
    Jeff> just a question).

No.  Besides what Brad said about Python conference and sprinting,
there's really only one person, Barry Warsaw, who has done nearly all
of the work on the existing Mailman 3 code base, I believe.  While
he's been pretty good about talking about requirements off and on, as
a day-to-day matter there's not much need for public comment about
what code changes he's making (if any).  Even the CVS logs won't
necessarily be indicative of what work is taking place in his personal
sandbox.

If you have some "real lists" that you could "sacrifice" as beta test
guinea pigs, or if you want to contribute significant functionality,
that might kick-start communication.  But AFAIK the code base is still
rather incomplete even for basic functionality, not beta-test ready,
and the other active developers are mostly focused on ongoing
maintenance and improvement of Mailman 2.x which is necessary for the
near future.

-- 
School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
University of Tsukuba                    Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
               Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
              ask what your business can "do for" free software.


From apap+mailman-users at auth.gr  Thu Mar  2 08:29:47 2006
From: apap+mailman-users at auth.gr (Apostolis Papayanakis)
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 09:29:47 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <mailman.8794.1141263597.27774.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.8794.1141263597.27774.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <44069EEB.2090108@auth.gr>




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Mar  2 11:41:43 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 11:41:43 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westne	t .com>
	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>
	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>
	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net> <p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>
	<44050590.60802@easent.net> <p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>
	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>
	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>

At 3:07 PM +0900 2006-03-02, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

>  *sigh*  I see lots of explanation of why this is going to hurt
>  "legitimate" bulk emailers there, but ... isn't that obvious?  OTOH,
>  very little about how it hurts the typical AOL customer.

	It hurts them because the current whitelist system will be 
dismantled, and any AOL user wanting to communicate with anyone in 
the outside world via mailing lists will be much less likely to be 
able to do so.

	If you were suddenly told that you could no longer communicate 
with any kind of reliability with most of the people in the world, 
would you not be hurt?

>                                                            In fact,
>  it's not crystal clear to me that it does, on average.  Remember, this
>  is the same class of user that you denigrate as "if you think that's
>  stupid AOL customer behavior, let me tell you it get MUCH worse than
>  that".  Maybe it's worth it to such users to lose a few mailings from
>  non-profits in order to instill more discipline in the less
>  professional half of bulk-emailing businesses.

	Yes, AOL users can be extraordinarily dumb.  But does that mean 
that we have to hurt all of them, just because of the stupidity of 
some?

>  From the point of view of the professional economist (that's me), "pay
>  per mail" (even pay-per-byte) is a concept that should be seriously
>  considered.  It's obvious that there are problems with managing the
>  payments, that it will be expensive---but both the monopoly USPS and
>  the fairly competitive courier services manage such businesses.

	Internet e-mail is a fundamentally different kind of beast.  You 
can't make comparisons with the USPS, UPS, FedEx, or any other 
carriers of physical mail.


	This isn't to say that we should not be exploring any kind of 
pay-to-play schemes, but whatever pay-to-play schemes we should be 
investigating should be under the complete control of the user in 
question, and not imposed on them by a service provider.

	If you want to charge me $50 per e-mail I send you, you should 
have that right.  Of course, I would have the right to prohibit you 
from sending any e-mail to me or any mailing list I control or have 
influence over, so that they would not be required to make that 
payment.

	But you should not be forced by your provider to charge certain 
people extra money in order to have guaranteed access to your mail 
box.

>  That said, I'm perfectly willing to believe that the move to
>  pay-per-mail is bad for everybody (even for AOL and Goodmail in the
>  long run).  In fact, I do believe that.  And I believe it's clearly
>  socially detrimental as implemented by Goodmail.  But I would like to
>  see the case made more strongly, because I know a lot of business
>  people and economists who _won't_.

	Then help us make the case more strongly.  Contact the EFF and 
the other supporters of the website I mentioned above, and get them 
to try to explain things better -- to you, and to the rest of the 
world.  If you can come up with anything more yourself, please 
contribute that work back to the effort.

>      Brad> 	While I definitely believe that they are right, and I
>      Brad> do have personal experience with how the AOL marketing
>      Brad> department works, I believe that these efforts are unlikely
>      Brad> to be successful -- at best, I fear that they may only
>      Brad> slightly delay things.
>
>  "Imminent death of the 'net predicted!  Film at 11."

	No, not imminent death.  Just one more step down the road towards 
making George Orwell's greatest fears come to life.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Mar  2 11:44:14 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 11:44:14 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <44069EEB.2090108@auth.gr>
References: <mailman.8794.1141263597.27774.mailman-users@python.org>
	<44069EEB.2090108@auth.gr>
Message-ID: <p06200727c02c7caf4e50@[10.0.1.211]>

At 9:29 AM +0200 2006-03-02, Apostolis Papayanakis wrote:

>  unsubscribe

	Try following the link in the footer of every message posted to 
this list which says "Unsubscribe:".  Or the link in the headers of 
every single message posted to the list which says 
"List-Unsubscribe:".

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From mistertime at gmail.com  Thu Mar  2 12:45:40 2006
From: mistertime at gmail.com (Mister Time)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 13:45:40 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] retriving admin password
Message-ID: <c1df09680603020345u95e8139o1ad1e6706e56285d@mail.gmail.com>

hi everyone.

I've done it again :-(
I forgot the password to manage my list.

does anyone know how it can be retrieved.

Thank you!


From roger at apf.it  Thu Mar  2 13:19:06 2006
From: roger at apf.it (Roger Favero)
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 13:19:06 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Log analysis
Message-ID: <4406E2BA.3050505@apf.it>

Hello,
it's my first post in this mailing list.
I'm looking fot a tool (a simple script, or something like it) to 
analyse the mailman log in order to know the volume of the work managed 
by mailman for each list configured in it (how many post per day, how 
many new subscrive, etc...).  Is there something that could help me?

Thanks a lot for you kind answer and help.

Best Regards,
Roger



From carbonnb at gmail.com  Thu Mar  2 14:06:49 2006
From: carbonnb at gmail.com (Bryan Carbonnell)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 08:06:49 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Log analysis
In-Reply-To: <4406E2BA.3050505@apf.it>
References: <4406E2BA.3050505@apf.it>
Message-ID: <e04a6c920603020506l37bbe6b5r71c2c84ab35055b7@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/2/06, Roger Favero <roger at apf.it> wrote:

> it's my first post in this mailing list.
> I'm looking fot a tool (a simple script, or something like it) to
> analyse the mailman log in order to know the volume of the work managed
> by mailman for each list configured in it (how many post per day, how
> many new subscrive, etc...).  Is there something that could help me?

Have a look at the MMDSR script at Sourceforge in the files section,
IIRC. It sounds like this is a perfect fit for what you need.

I'd give you the URL, but I can't get to Sourceforge at teh moment.

--
Bryan Carbonnell - carbonnb at gmail.com
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well
preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out,
shouting "What a great ride!"


From kim at pcb.co.za  Thu Mar  2 14:14:10 2006
From: kim at pcb.co.za (Kim Moodley)
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 15:14:10 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need help
Message-ID: <s4070bd4.017@hal.pcb.co.za>

I have a mailing list.
I have about 600 email addresses.  How can i extract all those email
addreses to spreadsheet or another format.

Is it possible.

Please help.

Thanks

Kind Regards


Kim Moodley

PCB Technologies (Pty) Ltd
Phone:  +27 (11) 880-9999
Fax:       +27 (11) 880-2555
E-Mail:   kim at pcb.co.za 
Web  :   http://www.pcb.co.za



From rebjr at dbpromos.com  Thu Mar  2 16:11:32 2006
From: rebjr at dbpromos.com (Bob Bales)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 09:11:32 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] simple?problem
References: <PC17402006030121362007962249b150@msapiro>
Message-ID: <003f01c63e0b$97ae9040$6401a8c0@main>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Sapiro" <msapiro at value.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] simple?problem



> Do you have more that one Mailman instance on your server? Did you
> upgrade at some point and change the locations of things?

Mark.

No, on this domain only 1 PHPlist is running. I have another list on a 
different domain, but it is not currently operating.

Yes I am speaking of the admindb interface as well as the moderator.

Also, this one individual is the only one, so far, that is doing this to us.

Thanks,
Bob Bales
interface. 


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar  2 16:42:44 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 07:42:44 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Log analysis
In-Reply-To: <e04a6c920603020506l37bbe6b5r71c2c84ab35055b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC174020060302074244006294fc230a@msapiro>

Bryan Carbonnell wrote:

>On 3/2/06, Roger Favero <roger at apf.it> wrote:
>
>> I'm looking fot a tool (a simple script, or something like it) to
>> analyse the mailman log in order to know the volume of the work managed
>> by mailman for each list configured in it (how many post per day, how
>> many new subscrive, etc...).  Is there something that could help me?
>
>Have a look at the MMDSR script at Sourceforge in the files section,
>IIRC. It sounds like this is a perfect fit for what you need.
>
>I'd give you the URL, but I can't get to Sourceforge at teh moment.

It's Mailman patch 1123383 at
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1123383&group_id=103&atid=300103>.

It's also referenced in the FAQ at
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.030.htp>.

And, since 2.1.7 it is in the contrib directory in the distribution,
although the one on Sourceforge is more up to date than the 2.1.7
distribution.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Mar  2 16:31:40 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 16:31:40 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] retriving admin password
In-Reply-To: <c1df09680603020345u95e8139o1ad1e6706e56285d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1df09680603020345u95e8139o1ad1e6706e56285d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0620072ac02cc01613f3@[10.0.1.211]>

At 1:45 PM +0200 2006-03-02, Mister Time wrote:

>  hi everyone.
>
>  I've done it again :-(
>  I forgot the password to manage my list.
>
>  does anyone know how it can be retrieved.

	Go to the Mailman FAQ Wizard at 
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py> and search for "list 
password".

	In the future, I recommend that you search the FAQ Wizard and the 
archives of the list before posting questions to this list.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Mar  2 16:36:14 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 16:36:14 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Log analysis
In-Reply-To: <4406E2BA.3050505@apf.it>
References: <4406E2BA.3050505@apf.it>
Message-ID: <p0620072bc02cc0602559@[10.0.1.211]>

At 1:19 PM +0100 2006-03-02, Roger Favero wrote:

>  I'm looking fot a tool (a simple script, or something like it) to
>  analyse the mailman log in order to know the volume of the work managed
>  by mailman for each list configured in it (how many post per day, how
>  many new subscrive, etc...).  Is there something that could help me?

	Go to the Mailman FAQ Wizard at 
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py> and search for "log 
analysis".


	There's lots of good stuff in the FAQ Wizard.  I recommend you go 
to the index of all entries at 
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=index> and read through 
as many as you can, and continue doing so until you've at least 
glanced at every entry in the FAQ.  Most of the information probably 
won't stick, but you should at least get a good feel for what kind of 
information is there.

	There's also lots of good stuff in the archives of the mailing 
list.  FAQ entry 1.18 should provide you enough information so that 
you can search the archives.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Mar  2 16:43:30 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 16:43:30 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need help
In-Reply-To: <s4070bd4.017@hal.pcb.co.za>
References: <s4070bd4.017@hal.pcb.co.za>
Message-ID: <p0620072cc02cc2e2bc0c@[10.0.1.211]>

At 3:14 PM +0200 2006-03-02, Kim Moodley wrote:

>  I have a mailing list.
>  I have about 600 email addresses.  How can i extract all those email
>  addreses to spreadsheet or another format.

	Go to the Mailman FAQ Wizard at 
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py>.  Look at FAQ 3.62.

	If you can tell us what terms you searched for, we can update the 
FAQ entry so that it will be more likely to come up in the future 
when people search for those kinds of terms.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar  2 16:49:25 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 07:49:25 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] simple?problem
In-Reply-To: <003f01c63e0b$97ae9040$6401a8c0@main>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603020749250640929060d9@msapiro>

Bob Bales wrote:
>
>No, on this domain only 1 PHPlist is running. I have another list on a 
>different domain, but it is not currently operating.

Are you sure that this reminder is not coming from the other list?

Is it the normal "... mailing list has N request(s) waiting" message?

Can you do 'bin/dumpdb lists/<listname>/request.pck'? If so, what does
it show? What does it show for the other <listname> directories?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar  2 17:12:19 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 08:12:19 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need help
In-Reply-To: <p0620072cc02cc2e2bc0c@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603020812190171789b8f3e@msapiro>

Brad Knowles wrote:

>At 3:14 PM +0200 2006-03-02, Kim Moodley wrote:
>
>>  I have a mailing list.
>>  I have about 600 email addresses.  How can i extract all those email
>>  addreses to spreadsheet or another format.
>
>	Go to the Mailman FAQ Wizard at 
><http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py>.  Look at FAQ 3.62.

Also note, if you want to script the web admin interface, there is a
revised version of the script mentioned in the FAQ that Jim Tittsler
has not yet had time to get on his web site. In the mean time, you can
find it at <http://veenet.value.net/~msapiro/mailman-subscribers.py>
and <http://fog.ccsf.edu/~msapiro/mailman-subscribers.py>.

This revised script can extract essentially all the member flags and
other member info except preferred language from the Membership List
pages into a CSV format file for import to a spreadsheet.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From manuel at escapade.ch  Thu Mar  2 17:27:32 2006
From: manuel at escapade.ch (Manuel Goepfert)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 17:27:32 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subscribers and pwd
Message-ID: <011501c63e16$481de840$6310a8c0@newgauche>

Hello,

Just wondering if there is was to retrieve somewhere the subscribers email
address and the password that mailman gives them??

Thanks for your help.

Manuel



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar  2 18:19:14 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 09:19:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Subscribers and pwd
In-Reply-To: <011501c63e16$481de840$6310a8c0@newgauche>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030209191401562514aeca@msapiro>

Manuel Goepfert wrote:
>
>Just wondering if there is was to retrieve somewhere the subscribers email
>address and the password that mailman gives them?

Subscribers can request that it be mailed by going to the options login
page, providing their email address and clicking the Remind button.

A list admin or site admin can only get a user's password by retrieving
it from the lists/<listname>/config.pck file. The easiest way is with
the bin/dumpdb tool, but of course you need at least read access to
the file.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From tony_bibbs at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  2 18:40:54 2006
From: tony_bibbs at yahoo.com (Tony Bibbs)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 09:40:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] admin email interface
Message-ID: <20060302174054.33286.qmail@web37708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Note: forwarded message attached.




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar  2 19:02:34 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 10:02:34 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] admin email interface
In-Reply-To: <20060302174054.33286.qmail@web37708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603021002340421ac852fc7@msapiro>

Tony Bibbs wrote:
>
>Even if you create an API to use the command line,
>don't you still have a problem because you can't set
>all the list attributes that you can via the web
>interface, right?


Any list attribute that can be set via the web interface can be set via
config_list. Just write the appropriate settings to a file and invoke
config_list with that file as input.


>Given that, how is the mailing list data stored?  I
>wouldn't suppose I'd be lucky to find the data is
>stored in a flat file that is easy enough to work with
>directly?


No. The data are stored as a Python pickle of the mail list instance in
lists/<listname>/config.pck.

Of course, you can use things like bin/config_list and bin/list_members
to write the data as a flat file.

Once you start talking about manipulating the list object directly,
you're really talking about modifying/rewriting the existing web CGI
interface. You might want to consider modifying the front end of the
existing CGI scripts rather that trying to link the back end of your
own stuff. 

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From haroldp at sierraweb.com  Thu Mar  2 18:55:32 2006
From: haroldp at sierraweb.com (Harold Paulson)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 09:55:32 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
Message-ID: <c1bc0b5987b7ffffdc87e4f0d65b572a@sierraweb.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Greg,

> Like most people who've been running mailing lists for 20+ years, I
> have strong opinions about list policy. Please address the mechanism
> I asked for instead of seeking to discuss the policy issues.

You have a policy problem with your MTA, not your MLM.

Your MTA SHOULD NOT accept email that it won't deliver.  Your MTA 
SHOULD reject email it can't or won't deliver.  Reject, not bounce.  
You are running a server that is a significant source of backscatter, 
and that hurts the Internet (and you).  It's not as bad as spamming, 
and it's not as bad as silently discarding email (as some have 
suggested) but you should fix it.

The solution is MTA-dependent, and I don't recall seeing any help in 
the Mailman FAQ, but it's been a while since I looked.

	- H




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin)

iD8DBQFEBzGaOy/dHTCUq6oRAtPkAKDKxYUCnhat9mAqCKnYeE8DMRvTLQCgz9J7
xDCG4orxU1nN1vXf4PQdbcY=
=IY5u
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From haroldp at sierraweb.com  Thu Mar  2 21:16:26 2006
From: haroldp at sierraweb.com (Harold Paulson)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 12:16:26 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <20060302190534.GA19876@bx9.net>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<c1bc0b5987b7ffffdc87e4f0d65b572a@sierraweb.com>
	<20060302190534.GA19876@bx9.net>
Message-ID: <a7571c02ef2eb29578bd6a73fc971e88@sierraweb.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Greg,

>>> Like most people who've been running mailing lists for 20+ years, I
>>> have strong opinions about list policy. Please address the mechanism
>>> I asked for instead of seeking to discuss the policy issues.
>>
>> You have a policy problem with your MTA, not your MLM.
>
> Which part of "I don't think we should talk about the policy issues"
> do you not understand? Please stop wasting your own time.

Hey don't do what you are complaining about others doing.  I understand 
you got some crummy replies, but take a moment to understand what I am 
saying.  It was meant to be constructive.

Do you really have a *policy* to accept messages that you will never 
deliver, save them to disk, and then generate reject messages for them? 
  Or is that simply the way your MTA+MLM is configured by default?  Is 
that *policy* really any different from your standpoint, from rejecting 
undeliverable messages during SMTP?

Real users who send from the wrong email account, for example, would 
still have their messages returned to them either way.  The only 
difference is that the bounce will be generated by their MTA, and not 
yours.  You can still include the reason the message was rejected.

Junk from spammers will never land on your disks, you will not be 
flooding yahoo users with incomprehensible "reject" notices for stuff 
they didn't send, or annoying yahoo.com's postmaster with a blizzard of 
messages to non-existant accounts.

It would not be inconsistent with your current MLM policy.  It is 
simply a better mechanism for implementing it, a better MTA policy, and 
better netizenship to boot.

	- H






-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin)

iD4DBQFEB1KgOy/dHTCUq6oRArwjAJ0Y1UNtC7xviyu61C9uVaWvyKQfcgCYpJKL
mv7r+x+uQ02tuszPPi1zPw==
=j0UH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Mar  2 21:59:52 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 21:59:52 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <c1bc0b5987b7ffffdc87e4f0d65b572a@sierraweb.com>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<c1bc0b5987b7ffffdc87e4f0d65b572a@sierraweb.com>
Message-ID: <p0620072dc02d0c38ec29@[10.0.1.211]>

At 9:55 AM -0800 2006-03-02, Harold Paulson wrote:

>>  Like most people who've been running mailing lists for 20+ years, I
>>  have strong opinions about list policy. Please address the mechanism
>>  I asked for instead of seeking to discuss the policy issues.
>
>  You have a policy problem with your MTA, not your MLM.

	Actually, you're wrong.  This is a problem with the MLM which 
causes problems for the MTA.

>  Your MTA SHOULD NOT accept email that it won't deliver.

	You get an e-mail message from fred at yahoo.com, which is obviously 
a valid domain, and presumably a valid sender address.  This address 
is sending a message to one of your mailing lists -- how is the MTA 
to know that the MLM would hold the message for moderation or reject 
the message because the sender is not a subscriber to the list?

	How could this possibly be a pure MTA problem?

>                                                           Your MTA
>  SHOULD reject email it can't or won't deliver.  Reject, not bounce.

	That is not at all the case here.  Please don't mis-apply an 
appropriate solution to one problem to another problem that may 
appear to be similar, but is in fact totally different.

>  The solution is MTA-dependent, and I don't recall seeing any help in
>  the Mailman FAQ, but it's been a while since I looked.

	That's because it's not an MTA problem.


	Basically, you've got to choose between the lesser of two evils. 
Neither solution is "good", as they both have serious consequences 
for your users and the community as a whole.  For some people, one 
solution will be better.  For others, the alternative choice is 
better.

	You need to look at your own situation and make up your own mind 
as to which is the better choice for you.  You need to be prepared to 
re-visit that decision in the future, in case the situation changes.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Mar  2 22:04:59 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 22:04:59 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <a7571c02ef2eb29578bd6a73fc971e88@sierraweb.com>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<c1bc0b5987b7ffffdc87e4f0d65b572a@sierraweb.com>
	<20060302190534.GA19876@bx9.net>
	<a7571c02ef2eb29578bd6a73fc971e88@sierraweb.com>
Message-ID: <p0620072ec02d0d663308@[10.0.1.211]>

At 12:16 PM -0800 2006-03-02, Harold Paulson wrote:

>  Do you really have a *policy* to accept messages that you will never
>  deliver, save them to disk, and then generate reject messages for them?

	How could the MTA possibly know that the MLM would choose to 
reject those messages because the sender is not a subscriber?  Or 
that the MLM might choose to hold those messages for moderation, 
because the sender is not a subscriber.

	These are concepts that are totally beyond the scope of the MTA. 
There is nothing the MTA can do for you here.

>  Or is that simply the way your MTA+MLM is configured by default?

	As far as the MTA is concerned, they are *ALL* configured this 
way -- assuming that all the appropriate anti-spam and authorization 
checks have been passed, they detect that the recipient is a mailing 
list, then hand the message over to the MLM.

	That's it.  That's pretty much all that an MTA is capable of at this level.

>                                                                    Is
>  that *policy* really any different from your standpoint, from rejecting
>  undeliverable messages during SMTP?

	The policy you are proposing is null and void, because the 
software in question is not physically capable of acting in the 
manner you suggest.

	Before chastising others so violently in public, you might do 
well to better learn how MTAs and MLMs really work, so that you can 
at least make accurate claims about what you believe that the 
software in question should be configured to do.

>  It would not be inconsistent with your current MLM policy.  It is
>  simply a better mechanism for implementing it, a better MTA policy, and
>  better netizenship to boot.

	Go back to basics, learn how MTAs and MLMs actually work.

	Then you are free to come back and tell us what you think the 
right solution is.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu  Thu Mar  2 22:34:59 2006
From: jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu (Jana Nguyen)
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 13:34:59 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] can't send out mail using postfix with mailman
Message-ID: <44076503.5000401@ncmir.ucsd.edu>

I'm having problem sending out mail using postfix with mailman, error below:
Mar 02 13:29:40 2006 (6457) delivery to jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu failed 
with code -1: (110, 'Connection timed out')
 
When I do a telnet localhost 25 it just stalled forever:
[root at bcc-dev-0-12 ~]# telnet localhost 25
Trying 127.0.0.1...

I've checked the IP tables for port 25, looks fine:

[root at bcc-dev-0-12 ~]# iptables --list | grep 25
iptables --list | grep 25
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:5825
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:5925

Postfix is also running, so any idea of the problems?





From pdbogen at gmail.com  Thu Mar  2 22:39:40 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 15:39:40 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] can't send out mail using postfix with mailman
In-Reply-To: <44076503.5000401@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
References: <44076503.5000401@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603021339s14057349s8cee1b2c04d05afa@mail.gmail.com>

Can /anything/ on the system send mail? If not, this may not be a mailman issue.

On 3/2/06, Jana Nguyen <jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu> wrote:
> I'm having problem sending out mail using postfix with mailman, error below:
> Mar 02 13:29:40 2006 (6457) delivery to jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu failed
> with code -1: (110, 'Connection timed out')
>
> When I do a telnet localhost 25 it just stalled forever:
> [root at bcc-dev-0-12 ~]# telnet localhost 25
> Trying 127.0.0.1...
>
> I've checked the IP tables for port 25, looks fine:
>
> [root at bcc-dev-0-12 ~]# iptables --list | grep 25
> iptables --list | grep 25
> ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:5825
> ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:5925
>
> Postfix is also running, so any idea of the problems?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pdbogen%40gmail.com
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>


--
- Patrick Bogen


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar  2 23:26:42 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 14:26:42 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] can't send out mail using postfix with mailman
In-Reply-To: <44076503.5000401@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <PC174020060302142642000070db658a@msapiro>

Jana Nguyen wrote:

>I'm having problem sending out mail using postfix with mailman, error below:
>Mar 02 13:29:40 2006 (6457) delivery to jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu failed 
>with code -1: (110, 'Connection timed out')


For the same reason as

 
>When I do a telnet localhost 25 it just stalled forever:
>[root at bcc-dev-0-12 ~]# telnet localhost 25
>Trying 127.0.0.1...


Postfix appears to not be listening for port 25 connects from localhost.


>I've checked the IP tables for port 25, looks fine:
>
>[root at bcc-dev-0-12 ~]# iptables --list | grep 25
>iptables --list | grep 25
>ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:5825
>ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:5925


Well, I'm not sure what this is telling you, but none of the matches
you returned are actually '25'.

What do you get from

netstat -l | grep smtp

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From atann at gmx.net  Thu Mar  2 23:32:05 2006
From: atann at gmx.net (Andre Tann)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 23:32:05 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce processing doesn't work
Message-ID: <200603022332.05446@inter.netz>

Hello out there,

I have set up a mailing list with about 500 addresses. Everything 
woks fine, except the bounce processing. Mailman does not recognise 
one single bounce.
It sends a mail to me instead which says: 

Die angeh?ngte Nachricht kam als unzustellbar an die Liste zur?ck.
Leider wurde entweder das Bounce-Format nicht erkannt, oder keine
e-Mailadresse eines Mailinglistenmitglieds konnte extrahiert werden.

I try to translate: the attached message was returned as 
undeliverable to the list. Either the bounce format was not 
recognised, or no email address of a mailing list member could be 
extracted.

I have set up mailman to deliver fully personalised mails, which 
means every mail to the mailing list is delivered 500 times, and 
the corresponding email address appears in the To-header. 

Does anyone have an idea what the reason might be why mailman 
doesn't process the boundes? For me as a human being it is no 
problem to see in the attached message which address has bounced.

Thanks.

-- 
Andre Tann



From abento at gmail.com  Thu Mar  2 23:34:06 2006
From: abento at gmail.com (Aaron Bento)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 14:34:06 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman running on SMTP gateway
Message-ID: <3bf034360603021434g52f06092i6ffce538ccdc8867@mail.gmail.com>

How is everyone today?

I was wondering if anyone has any experience in installing and running
mailman on a sendmail-based smtp gateway. I've looked in multiple places,
including the FAQ and the archives. If anyone has any pointers, it would be
very much appreciated.

We are migrating from a linux based sendmail server to exchange. The current
sendmail server will be the future smtp gateway, and I plan on forwarding
all user email to the internal exchange server through the use of a
mailertable entry. The sendmail server will have no users on it.

This server however does have a handful of email lists for the company. I'd
like to keep this in place. Does anyone know of a way to send the various
aliases through to the mailman binaries, but send the remainder of the
traffic to the internal mail server?

I've built a test environment, and can't seem to get it right. This might be
more of a sendmail issue between alias and mailertable precedence, but I
figure someone from here may have run into this.

Thank you in advance for any assistance or links.

--Aaron


From haroldp at sierraweb.com  Thu Mar  2 23:55:23 2006
From: haroldp at sierraweb.com (Harold Paulson)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 14:55:23 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <p0620072ec02d0d663308@[10.0.1.211]>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<c1bc0b5987b7ffffdc87e4f0d65b572a@sierraweb.com>
	<20060302190534.GA19876@bx9.net>
	<a7571c02ef2eb29578bd6a73fc971e88@sierraweb.com>
	<p0620072ec02d0d663308@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <97b512394db18a6a54ef360e9399e650@sierraweb.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Brad,

>>  Do you really have a *policy* to accept messages that you will never
>>  deliver, save them to disk, and then generate reject messages for 
>> them?
>
> 	How could the MTA possibly know that the MLM would choose to reject 
> those messages because the sender is not a subscriber?  Or that the 
> MLM might choose to hold those messages for moderation, because the 
> sender is not a subscriber.

Better MTAs can do this.


> 	These are concepts that are totally beyond the scope of the MTA. 
> There is nothing the MTA can do for you here.

It is much better to do this at the MTA level for the reasons I 
previously outlined:

  1) Do not accept stuff you will not deliver
  2) Do not send rejection messages to spoofed senders
  3) Do not annoy other postmasters (or more likely their automated 
blacklists) by inundating them with junk
  4) Do not be a backscatter source.


>>  Or is that simply the way your MTA+MLM is configured by default?
>
> 	As far as the MTA is concerned, they are *ALL* configured this way -- 
> assuming that all the appropriate anti-spam and authorization checks 
> have been passed, they detect that the recipient is a mailing list, 
> then hand the message over to the MLM.

Of course they are all configured this way by default.  Doesn't mean 
they should stay this way.


>>                                                                  Is
>>  that *policy* really any different from your standpoint, from 
>> rejecting
>>  undeliverable messages during SMTP?
>
> 	The policy you are proposing is null and void, because the software 
> in question is not physically capable of acting in the manner you 
> suggest.

You have the sender and the recipient right at the beginning of the 
SMTP transaction.  Check a map to see if it's deliverable.  Mailman 
already maintains such a map.  You just need some glue.


> 	Before chastising others so violently in public,

Uh, "violently"?


> you might do well to better learn how MTAs and MLMs really work, so 
> that you can at least make accurate claims about what you believe that 
> the software in question should be configured to do.

Check out:

	http://www.postfix.org/SMTPD_POLICY_README.html

for instance.  There are already policy servers written in Python, one 
could use as a starting place.  I'll bet a Python hacker could write a 
mailman-subscriber-checker in very short order.

Surely other MTAs give admins a way to make decisions during SMTP as 
well?


>>  It would not be inconsistent with your current MLM policy.  It is
>>  simply a better mechanism for implementing it, a better MTA policy, 
>> and
>>  better netizenship to boot.
>
> 	Go back to basics, learn how MTAs and MLMs actually work.
>
> 	Then you are free to come back and tell us what you think the right 
> solution is.

I think the right solution is to reject junk, instead of 
accept-and-bounce.  I think accept-and-bounce is a blight on the 
internet, that lowers the quality and reputation of email.  I think it 
is a waste of resources.

	- H


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin)

iD8DBQFEB3fhOy/dHTCUq6oRAiBeAKD05nqBD2x6XM7aD+bvPsWmLRMnUQCgsciI
fz37JE3NOB4aXs/A5SpfnSQ=
=ra1X
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar  3 00:02:26 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 15:02:26 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce processing doesn't work
In-Reply-To: <200603022332.05446@inter.netz>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030215022601717849a185@msapiro>

Andre Tann 
>
>I have set up a mailing list with about 500 addresses. Everything
>woks fine, except the bounce processing. Mailman does not recognise
>one single bounce.


Are you sure? Are there no entries at all in the 'bounce' log other
than the 'unrecognized' ones.


>It sends a mail to me instead which says:
<unrecognized bounce snipped>
>
>I have set up mailman to deliver fully personalised mails, which
>means every mail to the mailing list is delivered 500 times, and
>the corresponding email address appears in the To-header.


Since you already have enabled full personalization for the list, you
can at no extra cost set

VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes

in mm_cfg.py to enhance bounce recognition.

>Does anyone have an idea what the reason might be why mailman
>doesn't process the boundes? For me as a human being it is no
>problem to see in the attached message which address has bounced.

Are the bounce notices returned as unrecognized in English? Not the
text from Mailman which is in your list language, but the actual
attached bounce.

If you forward one or more of the actual bounce notices, we can see
what the recognition issue is and update the bounce recognizers if
necessary. Without the intact actual bounce, we can't tell you
anything.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar  3 00:27:19 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 15:27:19 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] can't send out mail using postfix with mailman
In-Reply-To: <44077A9F.2020104@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030215271907182e155201@msapiro>

Jana Nguyen wrote:

>[root at bcc-dev-0-12 ~]# netstat -l | grep smtp
>tcp        0      0 localhost.localdomain:smtp  *:*                         LISTEN     


This tells you that localhost.localdomain is listening on the smtp port
(port 25) for connects from anyone.

This should be OK, but the fact remains that when you actually connect
with either Mailman or telnet you get no response from Postfix (if
that's what's listening).

This is almost certainly a Postfix configuration issue. If you are able
to send mail from this box at all, what is the MUA connecting to?

What happens if you try

telnet localhost.localdomain 25

is that any different from

telnet localhost 25

(It shouldn't be, but who knows.) If it turns out that Postfix is
listening on some other address/port, you can set SMTPHOST and
SMTPPORT in mm_cfg.py to make Mailman use the ones that work.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From dmacpherson at mainframe.ca  Fri Mar  3 00:02:04 2006
From: dmacpherson at mainframe.ca (Derrick MacPherson)
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 15:02:04 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to get the recipients field to be the end user
Message-ID: <1141340525.13194.103.camel@mandarin-04>

is there a way to get the recipient field to not show the mailing list
name but the person it's delivered to?

so instead of mailman-users@ it would say dmacpherson at mydomain.com



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar  3 00:58:23 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 15:58:23 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to get the recipients field to be the end
	user
In-Reply-To: <1141340525.13194.103.camel@mandarin-04>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030215582305627849a309@msapiro>

Derrick MacPherson wrote:

>is there a way to get the recipient field to not show the mailing list
>name but the person it's delivered to?

See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.015.htp>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From john_holley at mac.com  Fri Mar  3 01:47:55 2006
From: john_holley at mac.com (John Holley)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 13:47:55 +1300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Password requests
Message-ID: <EB2DFB61-37F6-478D-9849-6CF0690AE8EF@mac.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

I have a couple of lists where one of the accounts subscribed is a  
global account for an organisation e.g. it sends a message to all  
staff. So if a staff member goes to the list and then clicks on the  
Password Reminder the password is mailed to all staff!

Is it possible to stop specific list members from requesting passwords?

Thanks

John
  

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Desktop 9.0.5 (Build 5050)

iQEVAwUBRAeSRtp2zkHFQlqJAQj7ggf/Yj9GdKawM1CRAKK9P66lkyhA1mpyPCc2
O38+KRVWKd/qaN79Z1jBneuAX0CQ2Rxp5pOCouCdStuskK2aRHCbIIG2EZouoxWE
hRn9v1KFYXVcqcTzampQOaL+vHuqAu4YRnVkFnHV+qy3qdPn0FSe/nVy5ZU+SUVn
cHhfaEw4La9aozLeA+IvceySYyb7jolDUVYgbEvMPNuKacto1hEv2OmdFxSmXwvn
g/l0x48JhzMjchTaengUZgWf6EDFcsNBrPew7tjmnibDoVjuyRgGYlzzFjo3gCUc
rKE+lfOI7BD6o86q5W/srmiDtq2LJr9QnA9XU3o8pbADFzSy5yT+UA==
=u4dZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From rebjr at dbpromos.com  Fri Mar  3 02:25:13 2006
From: rebjr at dbpromos.com (Bob Bales)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 19:25:13 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] simple?problem
References: <PC1740200603020749250640929060d9@msapiro>
Message-ID: <011001c63e61$53c0c550$6401a8c0@main>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Sapiro" <msapiro at value.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] simple?problem

> Are you sure that this reminder is not coming from the other list?  YES

> Is it the normal "... mailing list has N request(s) waiting" message?  YES

> Can you do 'bin/dumpdb lists/<listname>/request.pck'? If so, what does
> it show? What does it show for the other <listname> directories?

Please give me further inructions on how to do this?

Thanks,
Bob Bales


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar  3 02:34:27 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 17:34:27 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Password requests
In-Reply-To: <EB2DFB61-37F6-478D-9849-6CF0690AE8EF@mac.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603021734270046f9e36e69@msapiro>

John Holley wrote:
>
>I have a couple of lists where one of the accounts subscribed is a  
>global account for an organisation e.g. it sends a message to all  
>staff. So if a staff member goes to the list and then clicks on the  
>Password Reminder the password is mailed to all staff!
>
>Is it possible to stop specific list members from requesting passwords?

I don't think there's any way to configure a password request block on
certain member addresses only short of modifying the code, and you
can't really block all members either short of diverting the reminders
by making the list an umbrella list.

The closest you can come I think is the following:

Say one of your lists is list1 at example.com and the global address
(maybe a Mailman list or maybe some other mail_all_staff address) is
staff at example.com, then you can make a new list, say
list1-sub-list at example.com and subscribe all the people of list1 but
not 'staff' to list1-sub-list. Then remove all the people from list1,
and change list1 to an umbrella list and subscribe list1-sub-list to
it (staff is still subscribed).

Now the list1 at example.com list has two members -
list1-sub-list at example.com and staff at example.com. Password reminders
will be sent to list1-sub-list-owner at example.com and
staff-owner at example.com (or whatever based on umbrella_member_suffix
for list1 so that problem is solved, but other problems are created so
this may not be viable. Namely, individuals still post to list1, but
they are actually members of and get their reminders from and set
their options for list1-sub-list, so they are aware of it. If they can
post to it, then staff don't receive the post.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar  3 02:51:39 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 17:51:39 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] simple?problem
In-Reply-To: <011001c63e61$53c0c550$6401a8c0@main>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603021751390531f9e3705a@msapiro>

Bob Bales wrote:
>
>> Can you do 'bin/dumpdb lists/<listname>/request.pck'? If so, what does
>> it show? What does it show for the other <listname> directories?
>
>Please give me further inructions on how to do this?


If you can log in to a command shell or in some other way (via a
control panel) execute commands on the Mailman server machine, you do
the following commands assuming Mailman is installed in the default
location:

cd /usr/local/mailman

ls lists/
(returns all the listnames, for example list1, list2)

bin/dumpdb lists/list1/request.pck
(returns a somewhat readable list of requests)

similarly for list2.

note that the installation directory may be different from
/usr/local/mailman and the bin/ and lists/ directories may not be
sub-directories of the same directory either, all depending on how
Mailman was installed.

If you don't understand this, then you probably can't do it anyway. If
your lists are locally hosted, you might be able to enlist the help of
a local sysadmin. If they are hosted elsewhere, you'll probably have
to get people at the host to do it.

One other command you might try is

find / -name request.pck

which will return the full paths of all request.pck files on the
system. This will tell you whether or not there are any you aren't
aware of.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar  3 03:06:52 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 18:06:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Password requests
In-Reply-To: <4407A33D.3020705@wingfoot.org>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603021806520781f9e37161@msapiro>

Glenn Sieb wrote:
>
>It's not a "block" per se, but you *can* shut off password reminders for
>a user:

That won't help in this case. It only affects automatically generated
reminders and I would guess it's Off in this case anyway. The OP is
concerned about reminders requested from the options login page which
are unaffected by this setting.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Mar  3 06:25:27 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 14:25:27 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]> (Brad Knowles's message of
	"Thu, 2 Mar 2006 11:41:43 +0100")
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>
	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>
	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>
	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net> <p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>
	<44050590.60802@easent.net> <p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>
	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>
	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

>>>>> "Brad" == Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> writes:

    Brad> At 3:07 PM +0900 2006-03-02, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

    >> *sigh* I see lots of explanation of why this is going to hurt
    >> "legitimate" bulk emailers there, but ... isn't that obvious?
    >> OTOH, very little about how it hurts the typical AOL customer.

    Brad> 	It hurts them because [...].

You understand that and I understand that, but I don't think it's easy
to grasp from the pages whose URLs you posted.  What _is_ easy to grasp
is that bulk emailers who have been getting a certain level of QoS for
free are now being asked to pay for it, and they're upset.  Stinks of
"special interest" to high heaven.

Of course, especially for the altruistic lists (eg, the cancer
victims' group), that special interest is going to be supported by
highly motivated users, and get bad publicity for AOL.  But I doubt if
that's enough to get AOL to turn back.

    Brad> 	If you were suddenly told that you could no longer
    Brad> communicate with any kind of reliability with most of the
    Brad> people in the world, would you not be hurt?

Sure, but I don't believe that statement, and I don't think AOL users
will believe it.  You and I know that "possible" reliability is
6-sigma or so.  Mail simply does not need to ever get lost barring a
nuclear strike on your MX.  But we also know that there's a social
system and broken providers that drives a wedge between "possible" and
what we actually experience.  Without our knowledge, and given that
their providers are not going to accept the blame, nor blame the users
if possible to avoid it, many users will accept the excuse the system
as a whole is unreliable, and will believe AOL when they claim that
Goodmail improves reliability for many of their lists.  They won't
believe predictions that reliability will go through the floor, at
least not until they see them come true.

    Brad> 	Yes, AOL users can be extraordinarily dumb.  But does
    Brad> that mean that we have to hurt all of them, just because of
    Brad> the stupidity of some?

It's not *us* that are doing the hurting, though.  They're doing it to
themselves, just like the victims of any fraud.  The only thing you
can do to reduce fraud in the long run is to properly educate the
victims.  My point is that I see education of people who are already
aware of the knife at their throats, the bulk emailers.  I don't see
education of the people that AOL will listen to, namely their users.

    Brad> 	Internet e-mail is a fundamentally different kind of
    Brad> beast.  You can't make comparisons with the USPS, UPS,
    Brad> FedEx, or any other carriers of physical mail.

Economics is "the science that compares apples with oranges."  Of
course I can make the comparison.  More to the point, the third
parties that I mention already are doing so, and they are recommending
and even making policy based on those comparisons.

    Brad> whatever pay-to-play schemes we should be investigating
    Brad> should be under the complete control of the user in
    Brad> question, and not imposed on them by a service provider.

It's not imposition; it's a measure of the value of the service to the
users.  (Unless AOL can accept the mail and bill you later, and
successfully sue if you don't pay.)

As long as you think of it in terms of "imposition by the SP", you're
going to have trouble convincing people who are reasonably satisfied
with the SP.  Their satisfaction levels will go down as the costs go
up, and that's as it should be.  But if the SP makes a reasonably
convincing case that it reflects their cost of doing business, the
users are going to say to us, "if you're so smart, why aren't you
running a better service?"

    Brad> 	But you should not be forced by your provider to
    Brad> charge certain people extra money in order to have
    Brad> guaranteed access to your mail box.

You are not, and I am not.  We can always change providers.  That
possibility _does_ need protection, it's not a natural law.  Ie, there
needs to be a class of provider that is a common carrier, that "just
transports packets for money", and those providers need to form a
global internet, as a subset of the Internet.  They need to be
protected from a cartel of AOL-like providers that would try to
Balkanize, and thus eliminate, that 'net.  And they need to be
accessible to retail customers like us.

Beyond that, it's not clear to me what really is needed from society's
point of view.

    Brad> 	No, not imminent death.  Just one more step down the
    Brad> road towards making George Orwell's greatest fears come to
    Brad> life.

    Brad> "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a
    Brad> little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor
    Brad> Safety."

That can be spelled much more succinctly: "AOL".  Is it our job to
protect their Liberty and Safety?

    >> That said, I'm perfectly willing to believe that the move to
    >> pay-per-mail is bad for everybody.

    Brad> 	Then help us make the case more strongly.

Well, that's why I'm posting.

    Brad> Contact the EFF and the other supporters of the website I
    Brad> mentioned above, and get them to try to explain things
    Brad> better -- to you, and to the rest of the world.  If you can
    Brad> come up with anything more yourself, please contribute that
    Brad> work back to the effort.

Well, maybe.  The presentational problem I perceive is a reflection of
confusion of "the good we're trying to do for society" with "the good
of society".  Such confusion is not easy to overcome.

-- 
School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
University of Tsukuba                    Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
               Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
              ask what your business can "do for" free software.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Mar  3 06:48:17 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 14:48:17 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <a7571c02ef2eb29578bd6a73fc971e88@sierraweb.com> (Harold
	Paulson's message of "Thu, 2 Mar 2006 12:16:26 -0800")
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<c1bc0b5987b7ffffdc87e4f0d65b572a@sierraweb.com>
	<20060302190534.GA19876@bx9.net>
	<a7571c02ef2eb29578bd6a73fc971e88@sierraweb.com>
Message-ID: <87u0ag6pum.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

>>>>> "Harold" == Harold Paulson <haroldp at sierraweb.com> writes:

    Harold> Do you really have a *policy* to accept messages that you
    Harold> will never deliver, save them to disk, and then generate
    Harold> reject messages for them?

As I read his post, indeed he does.  He wants legitimate posters to be
told they need to sign up for the list before they can post.  It's
true that you can supply a reason for an MTA rejection, but (in my
experience) it is unfortunately also true that many originating MTAs
are not configured to report that reason.  Others will substitute a
stock text for the numerical code (especially in cases of
internationalization).  The most reliable way to give those legitimate
users full information is for Mailman to create and send a bounce
mail.

Because of the specific issue with Yahoo, he "deeply regrets that we
must make a special exception for Yahoo."

When implementing that policy exception for Yahoo, it would make sense
to do so at the MTA level, as you suggest, if his MTA provides the
hooks and he can write the needed glue code.  (It's a bit much to call
that exercise "configuration", IMO.)

-- 
School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
University of Tsukuba                    Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
               Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
              ask what your business can "do for" free software.


From haroldp at sierraweb.com  Fri Mar  3 07:29:18 2006
From: haroldp at sierraweb.com (Harold Paulson)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 22:29:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <87u0ag6pum.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<c1bc0b5987b7ffffdc87e4f0d65b572a@sierraweb.com>
	<20060302190534.GA19876@bx9.net>
	<a7571c02ef2eb29578bd6a73fc971e88@sierraweb.com>
	<87u0ag6pum.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CDFAE2D1-ACB1-4680-95A9-DADE7E15B97D@sierraweb.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Stephen,

On Mar 2, 2006, at 9:48 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

>>>>>> "Harold" == Harold Paulson <haroldp at sierraweb.com> writes:
>
>     Harold> Do you really have a *policy* to accept messages that you
>     Harold> will never deliver, save them to disk, and then generate
>     Harold> reject messages for them?
>
> As I read his post, indeed he does.  He wants legitimate posters to be
> told they need to sign up for the list before they can post.  It's
> true that you can supply a reason for an MTA rejection, but (in my
> experience) it is unfortunately also true that many originating MTAs
> are not configured to report that reason.  Others will substitute a
> stock text for the numerical code (especially in cases of
> internationalization).  The most reliable way to give those legitimate
> users full information is for Mailman to create and send a bounce
> mail.

Ah, this is a good criticism: other MTA's bounce messages can't be  
trusted to be readable by the sender.  Mailman after all, is sending  
a notice, not exactly generating a bounce.  A better policy-server  
might greylist non-member senders.  95% of the spammers will go  
away.  All of the normal posts would go right through.  Members who  
send from the wrong account would get the usual Mailman notice.   
Occasionally wrong-account-posters would have to wait a long time on  
their notice.


> Because of the specific issue with Yahoo, he "deeply regrets that we
> must make a special exception for Yahoo."
>
> When implementing that policy exception for Yahoo, it would make sense
> to do so at the MTA level, as you suggest, if his MTA provides the
> hooks and he can write the needed glue code.  (It's a bit much to call
> that exercise "configuration", IMO.)

Yeah, I just bristle at a hack for one destination based solely on  
it's size, when this is a general problem.  It could be that other  
ISPs blacklist servers based on the ratio of valid:invalid addresses  
that you send their way (AOL does this).  We just notice Yahoo or AOL  
because they are big, and our phones start ringing when they  
blacklist us.
This treats a symptom, not the problem.

The problem is that we are making net.messes by automatically  
replying to junk.  It would be nice to see a general fix.

	- H






-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin)

iD4DBQFEB+JFOy/dHTCUq6oRAnonAKCbxFOCNY4UXfHHugXrp8aVKzQRUgCYgcv1
bbAo8RhAMAotNPoHtljqUA==
=2gHo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From atann at gmx.net  Fri Mar  3 08:10:15 2006
From: atann at gmx.net (Andre Tann)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 08:10:15 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce processing doesn't work
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006030215022601717849a185@msapiro>
References: <PC17402006030215022601717849a185@msapiro>
Message-ID: <200603030810.15642@inter.netz>

Hello Mark,

Mark Sapiro, Freitag, 3. M?rz 2006 00:02: 

> Are you sure? Are there no entries at all in the 'bounce' log
> other than the 'unrecognized' ones.

Thanks for that hint. I was looking in /var/log/... , but there were 
no log entries from mailman. Now I know better where to look.

And yes, you are right: there are of course other entries than the 
unrecognized ones. But the unrecognized ones make half of the log 
entries.



> Since you already have enabled full personalization for the list,
> you can at no extra cost set
>
> VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes
>
> in mm_cfg.py to enhance bounce recognition.

I have already thought about this. But I was not sure if this might 
be a problem to my postfix MTA. I have no idea if my postfix can 
handle these address types.



> Are the bounce notices returned as unrecognized in English? Not
> the text from Mailman which is in your list language, but the
> actual attached bounce.
>
> If you forward one or more of the actual bounce notices, we can
> see what the recognition issue is and update the bounce
> recognizers if necessary. Without the intact actual bounce, we
> can't tell you anything.

OK, I attach one bounce here, Maybe you can see what mailman doesn't 
like about it. For me it is very clear that it is the 
severin.xxx at t-online.de address which is bouncing.

Thanks for your help!
AT




Return-Path: <email at mydomain.de>
X-Original-To: newsletter-bounces at mydomain.de
Delivered-To: newsletter-bounces at mydomain.de
Received: by mailsrv.mycompanysname.lan (mycompanysname mail 
service, from userid 1004)
	id AD5AC100A954; Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:22:36 +0100 (CET)
X-Original-To: email at localhost.mydomain.de
Delivered-To: email at localhost.mydomain.de
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailsrv.mycompanysname.lan (mycompanysname mail service) with 
ESMTP id B9B44100BF1B
	for <email at localhost.mydomain.de>; Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:22:34 +0100 
(CET)
Received: from mailsrv.mycompanysname.lan ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (mydomain.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id 32002-08 for <email at localhost.mydomain.de>;
 Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:22:33 +0100 (CET)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailsrv.mycompanysname.lan (mycompanysname mail service) with 
ESMTP id A093B100A955
	for <email at localhost>; Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:22:33 +0100 (CET)
Delivery-Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:20:00 +0100
Received-SPF: none (mxeu17: 212.227.126.240 is neither permitted nor 
denied by domain of mout-bounce.kundenserver.de) 
client-ip=212.227.126.240; 
envelope-from=postmaster at mout-bounce.kundenserver.de; 
helo=mout-bounce.kundenserver.de;
Received: from pop.1und1.com [212.227.15.161]
	by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-6.2.5.2)
	for email at localhost (single-drop); Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:22:33 +0100 
(CET)
Received: from [212.227.126.240] (helo=mout-bounce.kundenserver.de)
	by mx.kundenserver.de (node=mxeu17) with ESMTP (Nemesis),
	id 0MKxIC-1FE8W00flx-0005g9 for newsletter-bounces at mydomain.de; 
Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:20:00 +0100
Received: from mout by mouteu2.kundenserver.de id 
0MKvEC-1FE8V20Bkm-00025n;
 Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:19:00 +0100
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:19:00 +0100
From: Mail Delivery System <mailer-daemon at kundenserver.de>
To: newsletter-bounces at mydomain.de
Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
Message-Id: <0MKvEC-1FE8V20Bkm-00025n at mouteu2.kundenserver.de>
X-Original-Id: 0ML25U-1FE8V12M9j-0006lD
Envelope-To: newsletter-bounces at mydomain.de
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mydomain.de

This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.

A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of
its recipients. The following addresses failed:

  <severin.XXX at t-online.de>

SMTP error from remote server after RCPT command:
host mailin02.sul.t-online.de[194.25.134.9]:
550 user unknown


--- The header of the original message is following. ---

Received: from [84.154.27.78] (helo=mailsrv.mycompanysname.lan)
	by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu5) with ESMTP (Nemesis),
	id 0ML25U-1FE8V12M9j-0006lD; Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:18:59 +0100
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailsrv.mycompanysname.lan (mycompanysname mail service) with 
ESMTP id EA2CD100A954
	for <severin.XXX at t-online.de>; Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:18:58 +0100 
(CET)
Received: from mailsrv.mycompanysname.lan ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (mydomain.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id 31861-10 for <severin.XXX at t-online.de>;
 Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:18:58 +0100 (CET)
Received: from mailsrv.mycompanysname.lan (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mailsrv.mycompanysname.lan (mycompanysname mail service) with 
ESMTP id BB6BD100A308
	for <severin.XXX at t-online.de>; Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:18:58 +0100 
(CET)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: 
=?iso-8859-1?q?Sie_haben_die_Mailingliste_=22newsletter=22_ab?=
 =?iso-8859-1?q?bestellt?=
From: newsletter-bounces at mydomain.de
Message-ID: <mailman.0.1141147137.31940.newsletter at mydomain.de>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:18:57 +0100
Precedence: bulk
X-BeenThere: newsletter at mydomain.de
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6
List-Id: newsletter <newsletter.mydomain.de>
X-List-Administrivia: yes
To: severin.XXX at t-online.de
Sender: newsletter-bounces at mydomain.de
Errors-To: newsletter-bounces at mydomain.de
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mydomain.de
X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse at kundenserver.de 
login:50f36a15497f230366e1019f5ac05f49
-- 
Andre Tann



From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Mar  3 09:39:25 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 17:39:25 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <CDFAE2D1-ACB1-4680-95A9-DADE7E15B97D@sierraweb.com> (Harold
	Paulson's message of "Thu, 2 Mar 2006 22:29:18 -0800")
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<c1bc0b5987b7ffffdc87e4f0d65b572a@sierraweb.com>
	<20060302190534.GA19876@bx9.net>
	<a7571c02ef2eb29578bd6a73fc971e88@sierraweb.com>
	<87u0ag6pum.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CDFAE2D1-ACB1-4680-95A9-DADE7E15B97D@sierraweb.com>
Message-ID: <87mzg76hxe.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

>>>>> "Harold" == Harold Paulson <haroldp at sierraweb.com> writes:

    Harold> The problem is that we are making net.messes by
    Harold> automatically replying to junk.  It would be nice to see a
    Harold> general fix.

Well, there isn't one.[1]  Take the case in point.  Your solution is also
a hack in that it depends on having an explicit whitelist.

Of course it's an excellent hack!  It works in a *lot* of cases of
interest to MLM admins, but in principle you don't want to keep
whitelists (well, my Mom can spam me :-) or blacklists.  It's content
that you want to filter on (or out).



Footnotes: 
[1]  Well, you could have a "bonded mail" solution: every message
arrives with a PayPal credit, and the reader either waives it or the
sender pays.  My sister gets a permanent waiver, the taxman and the
"performance enhancement" salesmen can pay up. ;-)  Problem is, that's
too easy to corrupt into a Goodmail solution where the ISP collects
the gelt.  There's also Hashcash, but that's not a terribly happy
solution for mailing lists.

-- 
School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
University of Tsukuba                    Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
               Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
              ask what your business can "do for" free software.


From oliver at samera.com.py  Fri Mar  3 12:04:46 2006
From: oliver at samera.com.py (Oliver Schulze L.)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 08:04:46 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam check and bounced email's body
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200602220756140109880e479b@msapiro>
References: <PC1740200602220756140109880e479b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <440822CE.2090406@samera.com.py>

Hi Mark,
I understand.

The solution I'm looking is to hack the code to not send the body of
the differed/rejected email.

It would be nice to hace and option for this, since anti-spam software
get installed more and more every day.

Thanks for your reply,
Oliver

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Oliver Schulze L. wrote:
>   
>> My question is:
>> how can I configure mailman to not sent the body of the email in the 
>> notification
>> to the owner of the list?
>>     
>
>
> You can turn off admin_immed_notify so the admin/moderator only gets a
> daily summary of held posts. There's no other option for it.
>
> If the daily summary is not sufficient, you could increase the
> frequency of the cron/checkdbs job in mailman's crontab.
>
>   

-- 
Oliver Schulze L.
<oliver at samera.com.py>



From oliver at samera.com.py  Fri Mar  3 12:06:42 2006
From: oliver at samera.com.py (Oliver Schulze L.)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 08:06:42 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam check and bounced email's body
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00602222139u4cea1989wb9a354863c33b042@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PC1740200602220756140109880e479b@msapiro>	
	<43FCB026.8030609@samera.com.py>
	<6fbe3da00602222139u4cea1989wb9a354863c33b042@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44082342.3010207@samera.com.py>

Hi Patrick,
seems a nice solution, will give it a try.

Cheers,
Oliver

Patrick Bogen wrote:
> If you're using sendmail, I have a solution that I implemented that
> seems to work quite well:
>
> Put together a script (e.g., an init script in /etc/init.d, on Debian)
> that will run the following on startup:
>
> sendmail OPTIONS="-bd -ODeliveryMode=defer
> -ODaemonPortOptions=Name=MSA,Port=3276,M=E,Addr=127.0.0.1
>
> Also, you'll need to adjust your mailman config so that it delivers to
> the new port (3276, above). In mm_cfg.py, add:
>
> SMTPPORT = 3276
>
> (If my or your mail client chopped that up, it should be all on one line)
>
> This basically starts a sendmail daemon that listens only to
> localhost, and bypasses all filters and stuff to stick whatever it
> receives directly in the outgoing queue. If the mail to the admin is
> being delivered locally, this means it won't be scanned by
> spamassassin at any time.
>
> This also significantly decreased the time it took for a message to
> get out to a list, versus having mailman SMTP to the normal sendmail.
> Which is understandable, since it means that 90 messages weren't
> getting scanned by clamav and spamassassin anymore. :)
>
> - Patrick Bogen
>
> On 2/22/06, Oliver Schulze L. <oliver at samera.com.py> wrote:
>   
>> Hi Mark,
>> ok, I will try to find a solution in my spam filter.
>> Will not scan if the email is relayed by mailman.
>>
>> But still will have problem if the owner's mail server have a spam solution.
>> Maybe my mailman email server can get black listed for sending spam :(
>>
>> I think its a nice feature request to ask, "do not send body of the
>> deffered email" ;)
>>
>> Thanks
>> Oliver
>>
>> Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>     
>>> Oliver Schulze L. wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> My question is:
>>>> how can I configure mailman to not sent the body of the email in the
>>>> notification
>>>> to the owner of the list?
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> You can turn off admin_immed_notify so the admin/moderator only gets a
>>> daily summary of held posts. There's no other option for it.
>>>
>>> If the daily summary is not sufficient, you could increase the
>>> frequency of the cron/checkdbs job in mailman's crontab.
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> --
>> Oliver Schulze L.
>> <oliver at samera.com.py>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> Mailman-Users mailing list
>> Mailman-Users at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pdbogen%40gmail.com
>>
>> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>>
>>     
>
>
> --
> - Patrick Bogen
>
>   

-- 
Oliver Schulze L.
<oliver at samera.com.py>



From oliver at samera.com.py  Fri Mar  3 12:08:08 2006
From: oliver at samera.com.py (Oliver Schulze L.)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 08:08:08 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam check and bounced email's body
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200602281708420203a1249475@msapiro>
References: <PC1740200602281708420203a1249475@msapiro>
Message-ID: <44082398.7090007@samera.com.py>

Sorry about posting my email again.

I received an email from the list moderator saying that my email
was rejected so I assumed it was rejected.
I didn't saw my email until I sended it again to the list :(
I should double check next time ;)

Regards,
Oliver

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Oliver Schulze L.wrote:
>   
>> My question is:
>> how can I configure mailman to not sent the body of the email in the
>> notification
>> to the owner of the list?
>>     
>
> I think we did the best we can with this last week in the thread you
> started at
> <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-February/049499.html>.
>
> To answer your specific question, without modifying Mailman code or
> turning off admin_immed_notify, you can't.
>
>   

-- 
Oliver Schulze L.
<oliver at samera.com.py>



From george at alink.co.za  Fri Mar  3 11:31:09 2006
From: george at alink.co.za (George Barnett)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 10:31:09 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Large site mailman config
Message-ID: <44081AED.6060109@alink.co.za>

Hi,

Could somebody please send me a config for a large mailman site?

We're seeing our mailman queue wedge fairly frequently.  A simple 
restart sorts this out, but I'd like to see if there's anything else I 
can do to prevent this.

We have the following relevant options set:

QRUNNERS = [
     ('ArchRunner',     4), # messages for the archiver
     ('BounceRunner',   2), # for processing the qfile/bounces directory
     ('CommandRunner',  1), # commands and bounces from the outside world
     ('IncomingRunner', 4), # posts from the outside world
     ('NewsRunner',     1), # outgoing messages to the nntpd
     ('OutgoingRunner', 4), # outgoing messages to the smtpd
     ('VirginRunner',   1), # internally crafted (virgin birth) messages
     ('RetryRunner',    3), # retry temporarily failed deliveries
     ]

# Default queue stuff is shite.
QRUNNER_LOCK_LIFETIME = hours(20)
QRUNNER_PROCESS_LIFETIME = hours(2)
QRUNNER_MAX_MESSAGES = 50000
DELIVERY_RETRY_WAIT=minutes(10)
# Max recipients for each message
SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 150
# Max messages sent in each SMTP connection
SMTP_MAX_SESSIONS_PER_CONNECTION = 25
ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX = 0

Cheers,

George


-- 
George Barnett
Reality Engineer

m: (+44) 797 457 1868
e: george at alink.co.za

Digital circuits are made from analog parts.
		-- Don Vonada


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Mar  3 12:26:51 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 12:26:51 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <97b512394db18a6a54ef360e9399e650@sierraweb.com>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<c1bc0b5987b7ffffdc87e4f0d65b572a@sierraweb.com>
	<20060302190534.GA19876@bx9.net>
	<a7571c02ef2eb29578bd6a73fc971e88@sierraweb.com>
	<p0620072ec02d0d663308@[10.0.1.211]>
	<97b512394db18a6a54ef360e9399e650@sierraweb.com>
Message-ID: <p06200730c02dd3a6aa2a@[10.0.1.211]>

At 2:55 PM -0800 2006-03-02, Harold Paulson wrote:

>>  	How could the MTA possibly know that the MLM would choose to reject
>>  those messages because the sender is not a subscriber?  Or that the
>>  MLM might choose to hold those messages for moderation, because the
>>  sender is not a subscriber.
>
>  Better MTAs can do this.

	I've been specializing in Internet e-mail for over a decade, I 
was the comp.mail.sendmail FAQ maintainer for years, I was heavily 
involved in the postfix community from back when it was still being 
called VMailer, and I have yet to run into any MTAs that can do this.

	Please provide evidence for your claims.

>>  	The policy you are proposing is null and void, because the software
>>  in question is not physically capable of acting in the manner you suggest.
>
>  You have the sender and the recipient right at the beginning of the
>  SMTP transaction.  Check a map to see if it's deliverable.  Mailman
>  already maintains such a map.  You just need some glue.

	That would be nice, but Mailman does not, in fact, maintain such 
a map.  It has a procedure that it goes through to determine if the 
user is a subscriber or should otherwise be moderated or the message 
should be rejected, but there is no easy "map" for this process.

	Try checking the Mailman source code.

>  Check out:
>
>  	http://www.postfix.org/SMTPD_POLICY_README.html
>
>  for instance.  There are already policy servers written in Python, one
>  could use as a starting place.  I'll bet a Python hacker could write a
>  mailman-subscriber-checker in very short order.

	Saying that it would be possible to write such a beast is not the 
same thing as saying that such things already exist, and that people 
should configure their software to use the pre-existing functionality.

	That's a very cheap shot, frankly.

>  Surely other MTAs give admins a way to make decisions during SMTP as well?

	Sure, anyone can write an SMTP or LMTP-like engine that 
internally goes through the processes that the MLM would normally go 
through, and be able to provide that information to the MTA through a 
proxy service, but the MTA would also have to be configured to hold 
the sender open while checking the proxy -- again, most MTAs are not 
configured to do this, and for lots of good reasons the MTA authors 
suggest in the strongest possible terms that you not make the mistake 
of configuring their software in this way.

	At the very least, if you hold open the sender like this, you run 
the serious risk of violating the "minimize acceptance delay" 
requirements of RFCs 1123 and 1047.  Yes, I know these are really old 
RFCs, but they are just as valid today as they were on the day they 
were published, and RFCs 1122 and 1123 still comprise STD-0003, which 
is a required Internet standard.

>  I think the right solution is to reject junk, instead of accept-and-bounce.
>  I think accept-and-bounce is a blight on the internet, that lowers the
>  quality and reputation of email.  I think it is a waste of resources.

	Fine.  Then write the Python code to do all the magic work and 
contribute that back to the Mailman community, and get that 
incorporated into an upcoming release.

	Once you've done that, you'll have the right to encourage people to use it.


	But again, this is an MLM problem, not an MTA problem.  And you 
shouldn't be chastising people to make use of a supposedly 
pre-existing functionality that does not actually exist.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From jonathan at nerds.net  Fri Mar  3 12:46:28 2006
From: jonathan at nerds.net (Jonathan Dill)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 06:46:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <CDFAE2D1-ACB1-4680-95A9-DADE7E15B97D@sierraweb.com>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>	<c1bc0b5987b7ffffdc87e4f0d65b572a@sierraweb.com>	<20060302190534.GA19876@bx9.net>	<a7571c02ef2eb29578bd6a73fc971e88@sierraweb.com>	<87u0ag6pum.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CDFAE2D1-ACB1-4680-95A9-DADE7E15B97D@sierraweb.com>
Message-ID: <44082C94.8040107@nerds.net>

Harold Paulson wrote:
> away.  All of the normal posts would go right through.  Members who  
> send from the wrong account would get the usual Mailman notice.   
> Occasionally wrong-account-posters would have to wait a long time on  
> their notice.
>   
For the sender, there is a very simple solution to "whitelist" his or 
her own e-mail addresses which I have used myself:  subscribe the other 
e-mail address then set "Mail delivery" to "Disabled."  And if it's that 
important to the sender that his or her messages get through, then set 
"Receive acknowledgment" to "Yes."  In many ways, I think that is a 
better solution than expressly whitelisting addresses elsewhere.

Jonathan


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Mar  3 12:46:45 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 12:46:45 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Large site mailman config
In-Reply-To: <44081AED.6060109@alink.co.za>
References: <44081AED.6060109@alink.co.za>
Message-ID: <p06200731c02ddb1a6992@[10.0.1.211]>

At 10:31 AM +0000 2006-03-03, George Barnett wrote:

>  Could somebody please send me a config for a large mailman site?

	In my experience, these kinds of things need to be developed 
specifically for a given site.  SourceForge and lists.apple.com may 
both be exceptionally large Mailman sites, but their traffic patterns 
may not be anything remotely similar.  And neither of them are likely 
to be anything like a monster announce-only list with 500k 
recipients, where announcements are made once a week or once a month.

>  We're seeing our mailman queue wedge fairly frequently.  A simple
>  restart sorts this out, but I'd like to see if there's anything else I
>  can do to prevent this.

	What do you mean by "wedge"?  Which process(es) is/are failing or 
getting "wedged"?

>  We have the following relevant options set:
>
>  QRUNNERS = [
>       ('ArchRunner',     4), # messages for the archiver
>       ('BounceRunner',   2), # for processing the qfile/bounces directory
>       ('CommandRunner',  1), # commands and bounces from the outside world
>       ('IncomingRunner', 4), # posts from the outside world
>       ('NewsRunner',     1), # outgoing messages to the nntpd
>       ('OutgoingRunner', 4), # outgoing messages to the smtpd
>       ('VirginRunner',   1), # internally crafted (virgin birth) messages
>       ('RetryRunner',    3), # retry temporarily failed deliveries
>       ]

	For the mailing lists hosted on python.org (including the 
mailman-users mailing list), we have not found it necessary to modify 
the default QRUNNERS values.

	I can't speak for any other Mailman site.

>  # Default queue stuff is shite.
>  QRUNNER_LOCK_LIFETIME = hours(20)
>  QRUNNER_PROCESS_LIFETIME = hours(2)
>  QRUNNER_MAX_MESSAGES = 50000
>  DELIVERY_RETRY_WAIT=minutes(10)
>  # Max recipients for each message
>  SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 150
>  # Max messages sent in each SMTP connection
>  SMTP_MAX_SESSIONS_PER_CONNECTION = 25
>  ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX = 0

	Again, for the mailing lists for python.org, we haven't found it 
necessary to modify any of these values from their defaults set in 
Defaults.py.

	Most of my work in doing performance tuning for python.org has 
been within the MTA, and I've tried to make as much of that 
information available in the FAQ Wizard -- search for "performance".

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Mar  3 13:03:37 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 13:03:37 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <p06200730c02dd3a6aa2a@[10.0.1.211]>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<c1bc0b5987b7ffffdc87e4f0d65b572a@sierraweb.com>
	<20060302190534.GA19876@bx9.net>
	<a7571c02ef2eb29578bd6a73fc971e88@sierraweb.com>
	<p0620072ec02d0d663308@[10.0.1.211]>
	<97b512394db18a6a54ef360e9399e650@sierraweb.com>
	<p06200730c02dd3a6aa2a@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <p06200732c02ddf5d6930@[10.0.1.211]>

At 12:26 PM +0100 2006-03-03, Brad Knowles wrote:

>>   I think the right solution is to reject junk, instead of accept-and-bounce.
>>   I think accept-and-bounce is a blight on the internet, that lowers the
>>   quality and reputation of email.  I think it is a waste of resources.
>
>  	Fine.  Then write the Python code to do all the magic work and
>  contribute that back to the Mailman community, and get that incorporated
>  into an upcoming release.

	Note that an SMTPD_POLICY daemon is not going to be enough. 
There are things that Mailman can do based on the content of the 
body, or based on what the anti-spam filtering system has done to the 
message, so having just the envelope sender and recipient information 
isn't enough.

	To make this work right, what you're going to have to do is write 
an LMTP delivery interface for Mailman, so that you have Mailman go 
through all the appropriate steps of handling a message based on the 
envelope, header, and body content, meanwhile keeping the MTA open 
the entire time.  Your alternative is to write an SMTP proxy 
interface where your code goes through all those same processes but 
then throws away the result after it passes the return code to the 
caller -- if you're going to go through all that work anyway, you 
might as well save the result and go ahead and deliver the message.


	See <http://www.postfix.org/CONTENT_INSPECTION_README.html> and 
<http://www.postfix.org/SMTPD_PROXY_README.html> for examples of 
doing this as an SMTP proxy instead of an LMTP delivery interface, 
but note that all the performance issues are going to be the same. 
Let me quote:

	external, medium-weight, real-time

		This method inspects mail BEFORE it is stored in the queue,
		and uses the SMTP protocol. Although this approach appears
		to be the more attractive one, it really combines the worst
		of the other two. Because mail is inspected before it is
		queued, content inspection software must finish in a
		limited amount of time, and must run in a limited amount
		of memory. If content inspection needs too much time then
		incoming mail deliveries will time out, and if content
		inspection needs too much memory then software will crash
		under a peak load. Before-queue inspection limits the peak
		load that your system can handle, and limits the
		sophistication of the content filter that you can use.
		Details are in the SMTPD_PROXY_README document. This
		approach is available only with Postfix version 2.1 and
		later.


	Moreover, an SMTPD_POLICY daemon would be a postfix-specific 
solution.  An LMTP delivery engine would be a generally applicable 
solution which could be applied to any MTA that supports LMTP.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From george at alink.co.za  Fri Mar  3 13:13:18 2006
From: george at alink.co.za (George Barnett)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 12:13:18 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Large site mailman config
In-Reply-To: <p06200731c02ddb1a6992@[10.0.1.211]>
References: <44081AED.6060109@alink.co.za> <p06200731c02ddb1a6992@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <440832DE.7080300@alink.co.za>

Brad Knowles wrote:

>  What do you mean by "wedge"?  Which process(es) is/are failing or 
> getting "wedged"?

The processes dont seem to be failing.  New list mail is delivered fine, 
but what's 'stuck' in the queue doesn't leave until a restart which 
effectively does a queue run.

>     For the mailing lists hosted on python.org (including the 
> mailman-users mailing list), we have not found it necessary to modify 
> the default QRUNNERS values.

These were increased after some queues were getting more full than 
others.  Changing these values did help, but I suspect it's fixed the 
symptoms rather than the problem.

>     I can't speak for any other Mailman site.
> 
>>  # Default queue stuff is shite.
>>  QRUNNER_LOCK_LIFETIME = hours(20)
>>  QRUNNER_PROCESS_LIFETIME = hours(2)
>>  QRUNNER_MAX_MESSAGES = 50000
>>  DELIVERY_RETRY_WAIT=minutes(10)
>>  # Max recipients for each message
>>  SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 150
>>  # Max messages sent in each SMTP connection
>>  SMTP_MAX_SESSIONS_PER_CONNECTION = 25
>>  ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX = 0
> 
>     Again, for the mailing lists for python.org, we haven't found it 
> necessary to modify any of these values from their defaults set in 
> Defaults.py.

I found this information from the faq on python.org.  Our traffic 
pattern is very bursty.  Lists are small, maybe 25 users per list, but 
when traffic comes in, it's alot at the same time (monitoring mails).

>     Most of my work in doing performance tuning for python.org has been 
> within the MTA, and I've tried to make as much of that information 
> available in the FAQ Wizard -- search for "performance".

MTA has been tweaked to quite some degree.


-- 
George Barnett
Reality Engineer

m: (+44) 797 457 1868
e: george at alink.co.za

There's only one way to have a happy marriage
and as soon as I learn what it is I'll get married again.
		-- Clint Eastwood


From oliver at samera.com.py  Fri Mar  3 13:47:24 2006
From: oliver at samera.com.py (Oliver Schulze L.)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 09:47:24 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
Message-ID: <44083ADC.6010005@samera.com.py>

It would be nice to have this feature:
- if an email is marked as spam using "Spam Filter" in mailman,
differ the email and: 1) do not sent the body of the email to
the list owner, 2) do not reply to the sender

Meaby this is a big feature request, but mailman does not play
very well with spam/virus :(

Thanks
Oliver
 

Greg Lindahl wrote:
> Yahoo is delaying delivery of mail from my domain because I look like
> I'm spamming them -- my machine sends a lot of email to non-existent
> Yahoo users. Well, that's because I get a lot of incoming spam from
> fake Yahoo accounts to my Mailman, and I have it configured to send
> back a "you aren't a member" message.
>
> Is there any way to suppress "you aren't a member" only for Yahoo
> senders?
>
> -- greg
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/oliver%40samera.com.py
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>   

-- 
Oliver Schulze L.
<oliver at samera.com.py>



From roger at apf.it  Fri Mar  3 14:57:12 2006
From: roger at apf.it (Roger Favero)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 14:57:12 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Log analysis
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060302074244006294fc230a@msapiro>
References: <PC174020060302074244006294fc230a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <44084B38.6090208@apf.it>

Mark Sapiro ha scritto:

>It's Mailman patch 1123383 at
><http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1123383&group_id=103&atid=300103>.
>
>It's also referenced in the FAQ at
><http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.030.htp>.
>
>And, since 2.1.7 it is in the contrib directory in the distribution,
>although the one on Sourceforge is more up to date than the 2.1.7
>distribution.
>  
>
Hello,
thanks a lot for you answer. I downloaded the script and, after a few 
modification for customisation reason, it runs very well. But now I have 
a problem: I found out that my mailman post log is stop to the begin of 
february and I don't know why. The other log files (smtp, smtp-failure, 
ubscribe, vette, ......) are correctly updated to today. What could be 
happen? For sure I wrong somethig, but I can not understand what! :-(

Thanks a lot in advance for you kind answer.
Roger





From ges+lists at wingfoot.org  Fri Mar  3 15:03:28 2006
From: ges+lists at wingfoot.org (Glenn Sieb)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 09:03:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Log analysis
In-Reply-To: <44084B38.6090208@apf.it>
References: <PC174020060302074244006294fc230a@msapiro>
	<44084B38.6090208@apf.it>
Message-ID: <44084CB0.9030604@wingfoot.org>

Roger Favero said the following on 3/3/2006 8:57 AM:
> thanks a lot for you answer. I downloaded the script and, after a few 
> modification for customisation reason, it runs very well. But now I have 
> a problem: I found out that my mailman post log is stop to the begin of 
> february and I don't know why. The other log files (smtp, smtp-failure, 
> ubscribe, vette, ......) are correctly updated to today. What could be 
> happen? For sure I wrong somethig, but I can not understand what! :-(
> 
> Thanks a lot in advance for you kind answer.

Are you rotating your Mailman logs with newsyslog or some other log
rotator? If so, you have to be sure that you issue a HUP to the
master-qrunner process.. for Newsyslog I do something like this (it's a
single line entry in newsyslog.conf):

/usr/local/mailman/logs/mischief mailman:mailman 664 7 * @T000005 J
/usr/local/mailman/data/master-qrunner.pid

Hope this helps!

Best,
--Glenn
-- 
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
          ~Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759


From forums at thebiketour.net  Fri Mar  3 14:49:00 2006
From: forums at thebiketour.net (Dirk =?iso-8859-1?Q?V=F6llger?=)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 14:49:00 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] issues with signatures
Message-ID: <63316.84.167.190.145.1141393740.squirrel@mail.thebiketour.net>

Hello,

I just successfully set up mailman 2.1.7 on a Debian Sarge Server which
works very fine so far. I only have some problems with Signatures, i know
that its not a big problem, but i liked it to be resolved.

I want to insert ASCII-Art like to be seen here:

    __o
   _`\<,_
  (*)/_(*)

The problem is, that < is always transformed to &lt; so it becomes:

    __o
   _`\&lt;,_
  (*)/_(*)

Where do I have to look for the error?

thx

-- 
                     __o         Dirk V?llger
 == dirkounet ==   _`\<,_  dirkounet at thebiketour.net
__________________(*)/_(*)____www.thebiketour.net



From nosagie at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  3 15:28:15 2006
From: nosagie at hotmail.com (nico osagie)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 14:28:15 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Copying List from Lyris to Mailman
Message-ID: <BAY103-F32389C796E863FB534526FB7EA0@phx.gbl>

Hi Guys,



We are switching from Lyris to Mailman, but we stucked with 
moving/copying/exporting 200 lists from lyris list server to mailman.



Any help will highly appreciated.



Mailman ver 2.1.7

Lyris Ver 5



Kind regds

Nick




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Mar  3 15:43:17 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 15:43:17 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Large site mailman config
In-Reply-To: <440832DE.7080300@alink.co.za>
References: <44081AED.6060109@alink.co.za> <p06200731c02ddb1a6992@[10.0.1.211]>
	<440832DE.7080300@alink.co.za>
Message-ID: <p06200733c02e02ecbecb@[10.0.1.211]>

At 12:13 PM +0000 2006-03-03, George Barnett wrote:

>  The processes dont seem to be failing.  New list mail is delivered fine,
>  but what's 'stuck' in the queue doesn't leave until a restart which
>  effectively does a queue run.

	Ahh.  Because Mailman uses the filesystem as a queueing method, 
there is a certain FIFO nature to the messages that are processed, 
and if the queue is deep then new messages that come in won't be 
processed for a while -- the qrunner is going to be at a certain 
point in the inode filestructure for the directory and is not going 
to look at earlier points in the directory even if they are now free 
and would sort earlier in the process.

	I believe that there is some discussion on this in FAQ 6.6.

>  These were increased after some queues were getting more full than
>  others.  Changing these values did help, but I suspect it's fixed
>  the symptoms rather than the problem.

	If you haven't already looked at FAQ 6.6, I'd encourage you to 
read it and compare it with your own experience, and the different 
values recommended as compared to your own.  Using different values 
is fine, but you should understand what the values mean and why they 
are what they are.


	One thing I can tell you is that the filesystem is a critical 
bottleneck for both MTAs and MLMs, and most of the performance tuning 
techniques for MTAs with regard to filesystems will be equally 
applicable to filesystem issues for Mailman and other MLMs.

	Towards that end, I'd recommend you take a look at FAQ 6.3 as 
well, and the slides at 
<http://www.shub-internet.org/brad/papers/sendmail-tuning/> from my 
invited talk "Sendmail Performance Tuning for Large Systems" that I 
gave at SANE'98.  With regards to disk and filesystem performance, 
pretty much everywhere it says "Sendmail", you can substitute 
"Mailman" instead, without loss of generality.

>  I found this information from the faq on python.org.  Our traffic pattern
>  is very bursty.  Lists are small, maybe 25 users per list, but when
>  traffic comes in, it's alot at the same time (monitoring mails).

	Whereas our traffic tends to be more consistent -- receiving 
anywhere from 5000 to 30,000 messages per hour, and around 400,000 
total incoming messages per day, and rejecting about 200,000 messages 
per day (mostly spam).

	By Mailman standards, this is actually only "moderate" size, even 
though a couple of months ago we were rejecting 90-95% of all 
incoming mail as spam, and handling 500,000-600,000 (or more) 
incoming messages per day that were legitimate.


	Oh, and we've got some stuff we're doing with the firewall 
(blocking known abusive IP addresses for short periods of time), 
which doesn't show up in any of our logs.  There's enough of that 
crap that we can't log that information because the impact of doing 
the logging would probably kill the machine.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Mar  3 15:47:31 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 15:47:31 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <44083ADC.6010005@samera.com.py>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net> <44083ADC.6010005@samera.com.py>
Message-ID: <p06200735c02e074cc564@[10.0.1.211]>

At 9:47 AM -0300 2006-03-03, Oliver Schulze L. wrote:

>  It would be nice to have this feature:
>  - if an email is marked as spam using "Spam Filter" in mailman,
>  differ the email and: 1) do not sent the body of the email to
>  the list owner, 2) do not reply to the sender
>
>  Meaby this is a big feature request, but mailman does not play
>  very well with spam/virus :(

	You could certainly go to the appropriate SourceForge page and 
check to see if this RFE is already on the system, and if not then 
you could file it yourself.  But if the RFE isn't filed on 
SourceForge, then we really don't have a way to track it, and it's 
much less likely to ever get addressed.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Mar  3 16:02:18 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 16:02:18 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Copying List from Lyris to Mailman
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F32389C796E863FB534526FB7EA0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY103-F32389C796E863FB534526FB7EA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <p06200736c02e0a8285f4@[10.0.1.211]>

At 2:28 PM +0000 2006-03-03, nico osagie wrote:

>  We are switching from Lyris to Mailman, but we stucked with
>  moving/copying/exporting 200 lists from lyris list server to mailman.

	There's actually not anything in the FAQ Wizard about this, at 
least not yet.  However, searching the archives of the mailman-users 
list, I find quite a few articles which appear to be relevant.  See 
<http://www.google.com/search?q=(import%7Cconvert)+lyris+inurl:mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/&hl=en&lr=&client=safari&rls=en&filter=0>.

	To see more on how to search the archives of the mailing list, 
see FAQ 1.18.  While you're at it, you might also look at FAQs 1.22 
and 1.23.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From eduardo_scricco at conectt.com.br  Fri Mar  3 15:47:36 2006
From: eduardo_scricco at conectt.com.br (Eduardo Scricco)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 11:47:36 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Change Mailman Server IP Address
Message-ID: <2DF021D8B018FC44B91A2CEB5282FE1A028CF46C@conecttrs6.conecttrs.com.br>

Hello all,

I need to change my Mailman server IP address. What changes should be
made, besides changing DNS entries?

Thanks!
Eduardo


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Mar  3 16:26:53 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 16:26:53 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Copying List from Lyris to Mailman
In-Reply-To: <p06200736c02e0a8285f4@[10.0.1.211]>
References: <BAY103-F32389C796E863FB534526FB7EA0@phx.gbl>
	<p06200736c02e0a8285f4@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <p06200738c02e109df42b@[10.0.1.211]>

At 4:02 PM +0100 2006-03-03, Brad Knowles wrote:

>  At 2:28 PM +0000 2006-03-03, nico osagie wrote:
>
>>   We are switching from Lyris to Mailman, but we stucked with
>>   moving/copying/exporting 200 lists from lyris list server to mailman.
>
>  	There's actually not anything in the FAQ Wizard about this, at
>  least not yet.  However, searching the archives of the mailman-users
>  list, I find quite a few articles which appear to be relevant.

	I've updated the FAQ Wizard with this information.  See FAQ 1.31 
at 
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.031.htp>.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Mar  3 16:28:45 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 16:28:45 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Change Mailman Server IP Address
In-Reply-To: <2DF021D8B018FC44B91A2CEB5282FE1A028CF46C@conecttrs6.conecttrs.com
	.br>
References: <2DF021D8B018FC44B91A2CEB5282FE1A028CF46C@conecttrs6.conecttrs.com
	.br>
Message-ID: <p06200739c02e10f40898@[10.0.1.211]>

At 11:47 AM -0300 2006-03-03, Eduardo Scricco wrote:

>  I need to change my Mailman server IP address. What changes should be
>  made, besides changing DNS entries?

	If the IP address is the only thing changing, and the DNS will 
remain the same, then there shouldn't be anything you need to change 
within Mailman -- unless you made specific use of the IP address in 
the mm_cfg.py or Defaults.py files, however.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From amattina at layer8group.com  Fri Mar  3 18:40:08 2006
From: amattina at layer8group.com (Adam Mattina)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 12:40:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix + Virtual Domains + MySQL + Mailman
Message-ID: <A495339608834D47B69C1DC6BFD5EB2A0D3AD7@one.layer8group.local>

Hello,

I am having trouble getting mail delivered to my lists.  

 

Setup

Server name (for instance) is host.domain.com which will be hosting two
virtual domains.  There will be no local user accounts other than root
and some other users that won't need mail (ftp user, etc).  Therefore
all accounts will be virtual. The problem seems to be that when I add a
list, the server tries to match the lookup with a local account instead
of a virtual one.  All virtual mail is working and I can add virtual
users via mysql blah blah and that all works. Caveat: If I setup a new
account in mysql (list1) and then setup the list in mailman (list1),
mail is delivered to the virtual mailbox instead of any list. 

 

Here is what I have done to troubleshoot...

 

1.	Try to use postmap to make sure the address is getting
translated correctly 

a.	I perform "postconf -q listname at address.com
/usr/local/mailman/data/virtual-mailman" 
b.	Which returns: listname 
c.	This is where I think the problem is because it should return
listname at address.com  What happens when I try to send mail to this
address is that postfix trys to send it to a local account which
obviously does not exist. 

2.	Tried to mail from the console to a list I created which will
bounce mail telling me the user is unknown. 

a.	Feb 27 09:51:14 excellence postfix/pipe[2449]: EBBDF10BC329:
to=undergrad at excellence.ritphipsi.org orig_to=undergrad at ritphipsi.org,
relay=maildrop, delay=1, status=bounced (user unknown. Command output:
Invalid user specified. ) 

3.	I have been playing around with hostnames and url configs in the
postfix and mailman files but it doesn't seem to be working but the mail
keeps on going local. 
4.	Specs: Gentoo 2.6 / Mailman 2.1.7 / Postfix 2.2.5 / Courier IMAP
4.0.1 

 

Here are the relevant parts from my confs...

mm_cfg.py

----

DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'ritphipsi.org'
DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'mailman.ritphipsi.org'

MTA = "Postfix"
POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['ritphipsi.org', 'ritdodgeball.org']
add_virtualhost('mailman.ritdodgeball.org', 'ritdodgeball.org')
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

 

/etc/postfix/main.cf

---

myhostname = excellence.ritphipsi.org
mydomain = ritphipsi.org

virtual_alias_maps = mysql:/etc/postfix/mysql-virtual-alias-maps.cf,
hash:/usr/local/mailman/data/virtual-mailman

owner_request_special = no

 

  

Thanks,


Adam Mattina
Networking & Systems Support
Layer 8 Group, Inc.
585.442.8888
 <mailto:amattina at layer8group.com> amattina at layer8group.com

 



From haroldp at sierraweb.com  Fri Mar  3 20:08:29 2006
From: haroldp at sierraweb.com (Harold Paulson)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 11:08:29 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <p06200730c02dd3a6aa2a@[10.0.1.211]>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<c1bc0b5987b7ffffdc87e4f0d65b572a@sierraweb.com>
	<20060302190534.GA19876@bx9.net>
	<a7571c02ef2eb29578bd6a73fc971e88@sierraweb.com>
	<p0620072ec02d0d663308@[10.0.1.211]>
	<97b512394db18a6a54ef360e9399e650@sierraweb.com>
	<p06200730c02dd3a6aa2a@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <8DA3FF52-84B0-4710-A4EF-EF73EE5D580C@sierraweb.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Brad,

> 	I've been specializing in Internet e-mail for over a decade, I was  
> the comp.mail.sendmail FAQ maintainer for years, I was heavily  
> involved in the postfix community from back when it was still being  
> called VMailer, and I have yet to run into any MTAs that can do this.

My bad.  I failed to check the archives:

   http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-February/ 
049346.html
   http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2005-July/045672.html
   http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2004-February/ 
034534.html
   http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2003-July/029947.html

...for your resume first, and was suggesting a solution I thought was  
both useful, and more...correct.  I did meet Eric Allman once.  He  
seemed nice.


> 	Please provide evidence for your claims.

You will have to forgive me because I have only been on the `net for  
a minute or two, and never worked for AOL, but don't you sort of  
water this down below and - at the perilous risk of putting words in  
your mouth - agree that this is entirely possible, but, maybe a  
little work?


>>>  	The policy you are proposing is null and void, because the  
>>> software
>>>  in question is not physically capable of acting in the manner  
>>> you suggest.
>>
>>  You have the sender and the recipient right at the beginning of the
>>  SMTP transaction.  Check a map to see if it's deliverable.  Mailman
>>  already maintains such a map.  You just need some glue.
>
> 	That would be nice, but Mailman does not, in fact, maintain such a  
> map.  It has a procedure that it goes through to determine if the  
> user is a subscriber or should otherwise be moderated or the  
> message should be rejected, but there is no easy "map" for this  
> process.

Ok, maybe it's not an MTA-ready map, but Mailman looks up the sender  
in it's subscriber database when it gets a message to a members only  
list, right?  That code exists?  And could be adapted, in a fairly  
straight-forward manor to do exactly the same thing a few seconds  
earlier, before your message hits disk?

Probably my misunderstanding.


>>  Surely other MTAs give admins a way to make decisions during SMTP  
>> as well?
>
> 	Sure, anyone can write an SMTP or LMTP-like engine that internally  
> goes through the processes that the MLM would normally go through,  
> and be able to provide that information to the MTA through a proxy  
> service, but the MTA would also have to be configured to hold the  
> sender open while checking the proxy -- again, most MTAs are not  
> configured to do this, and for lots of good reasons the MTA authors  
> suggest in the strongest possible terms that you not make the  
> mistake of configuring their software in this way.

Seems like you are imagining a lot of unnecessary plumbing.

When you have the sender address during SMTP
   If it's going to a known Mailman list address
     If the sender address can't be found in the list subscriber db
       Say no thanks...(or say please try again later)

Mailman will do all of this a second or two later anyway, right?


>>  I think the right solution is to reject junk, instead of accept- 
>> and-bounce.
>>  I think accept-and-bounce is a blight on the internet, that  
>> lowers the
>>  quality and reputation of email.  I think it is a waste of  
>> resources.
>
> 	Fine.  Then write the Python code to do all the magic work and  
> contribute that back to the Mailman community, and get that  
> incorporated into an upcoming release.

Well you know of course I was trying to goad you into writing it.  I  
don't know Python, or have a problem with backscatter.  :)

	- H





-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin)

iD8DBQFECIKHOy/dHTCUq6oRAiAKAKD4tiNXVX0RO9idCNMLk5+ni3AG/wCg5RhS
U+Woiw8Nn0HVfXBqtrfmTxY=
=W7Ix
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From kwz-mm at commpartners.com  Fri Mar  3 19:25:28 2006
From: kwz-mm at commpartners.com (Karl Zander)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 13:25:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Importing Archives Not Working
Message-ID: <web-2698372@commpartners.com>

Hello,

Using mm 2.1.7 with the patches for htdig and MHonArc 
applied.

We have messages in mbox format that we want to import.

As per 5.1 from the FAQ, we used

  bin/arch <list> archives/private/<list>.mbox/<list>.mbox

where <list> is our list name.  We did create the list 
before  attempting to import.


Running arch gives this,

Pickling archive state into 
/data/mailman/archives/private/our-list/pipermail.pck

then seems to return without any errors or other messages.

But when visting the archives, nothing is available.

We have checked that the messages to import really are in 
mbox format.

Is there another step?  I am not sure where to 
troubleshoot.

--Karl


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar  3 20:36:08 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 11:36:08 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce processing doesn't work
In-Reply-To: <200603030810.15642@inter.netz>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603031136080765ff390bc5@msapiro>

Andre Tann wrote:
>
>> Since you already have enabled full personalization for the list,
>> you can at no extra cost set
>>
>> VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES =3D Yes
>>
>> in mm_cfg.py to enhance bounce recognition.
>
>I have already thought about this. But I was not sure if this might
>be a problem to my postfix MTA. I have no idea if my postfix can
>handle these address types.

Just have an outside mail sent to an inside address of the form
user+xxx=abc.def at example.com and see if it arrives.

If you want me to send a test mail, mail me off list with the address
to send it to.


>OK, I attach one bounce here, Maybe you can see what mailman doesn'tlike about it. For me it is very clear that it is the
>severin.xxx at t-online.de address which is bouncing.


That's because you are a lot smarter than the code :-)

Are all the unrecognized bounces from kundenserver.de? Do they all look
like this one did in terms of this part?

-------------------------------------------------
This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.

A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of
its recipients. The following addresses failed:

  <severin.XXX at t-online.de>

SMTP error from remote server after RCPT command:
host mailin02.sul.t-online.de[194.25.134.9]:
550 user unknown


--- The header of the original message is following. ---
--------------------------------------------------

I have updated Mailman/Bouncers/SimpleMatch.py to recognize the above
by looking for '<xxx at xxx>' occurring after 'A message that you sent
could not be delivered' and before '^--- The header of the original'.

If there are other unrecognized bounces with a different pattern, I
will include those if you send them.

There have been other changes since 2.1.7. You can get the latest
versions at
<http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/mailman/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/>.
The ones you might want are

DSN.py        CVS rev. 2.7.2.4 or 2.12
Qmail.py               2.4.2.2 or 2.6
SMTP32.py              2.5.2.3 or 2.8
SimpleMatch.py         2.10.2.6 or 2.16

The latest SimpleMatch is the one that gets the above bounce. There is
a lag in updating the web CVS, so it may not be there yet.

Do not get the updated BouncerAPI.py (2.14.2.2 or 2.16) unless you also
get the updated Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.py (2.27.2.8 or 2.33). The
changes to these two modules have to do with ignoring a 'delayed'
notification rather than treating it as unrecognized.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From lindahl at pbm.com  Fri Mar  3 20:39:49 2006
From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 11:39:49 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <44082C94.8040107@nerds.net>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<c1bc0b5987b7ffffdc87e4f0d65b572a@sierraweb.com>
	<20060302190534.GA19876@bx9.net>
	<a7571c02ef2eb29578bd6a73fc971e88@sierraweb.com>
	<87u0ag6pum.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<CDFAE2D1-ACB1-4680-95A9-DADE7E15B97D@sierraweb.com>
	<44082C94.8040107@nerds.net>
Message-ID: <20060303193948.GA2592@bx9.net>

On Fri, Mar 03, 2006 at 06:46:28AM -0500, Jonathan Dill wrote:

> For the sender, there is a very simple solution to "whitelist" his or 
> her own e-mail addresses which I have used myself:  subscribe the other 
> e-mail address then set "Mail delivery" to "Disabled."

Or the admin can add these additional addresses to
accept_these_nonmembers.

The users who need this done generally don't even realize their
address changed, and don't follow directions well enough to whitelist
themselves. So my reject message for non-members says, "If you think
you are a member of this list, email the list owner and he'll fix it."

BTW, irony of ironies, Yahoo Groups sends rejection messages to
non-members. What's sauce for the goose is poison for the gander.

-- greg



From ges+lists at wingfoot.org  Fri Mar  3 20:44:42 2006
From: ges+lists at wingfoot.org (Glenn Sieb)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 14:44:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Importing Archives Not Working
In-Reply-To: <web-2698372@commpartners.com>
References: <web-2698372@commpartners.com>
Message-ID: <44089CAA.2010307@wingfoot.org>

Karl Zander wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Using mm 2.1.7 with the patches for htdig and MHonArc 
> applied.
>
> We have messages in mbox format that we want to import.
>
> As per 5.1 from the FAQ, we used
>
>   bin/arch <list> archives/private/<list>.mbox/<list>.mbox
>
> where <list> is our list name.  We did create the list 
> before  attempting to import.
>
>
> Running arch gives this,
>
> Pickling archive state into 
> /data/mailman/archives/private/our-list/pipermail.pck
>
> then seems to return without any errors or other messages.
>
> But when visting the archives, nothing is available.
>
> We have checked that the messages to import really are in 
> mbox format.
>
> Is there another step?  I am not sure where to 
> troubleshoot.
>
>   
The first thing I'd do is:

bin/check_perms

If it shows any problems, have it fix them:

bin/check_perms -f

That's a good start, at least.. :)

Best,
--Glenn

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
______________________________________________________________________


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Mar  3 20:54:23 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 20:54:23 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <8DA3FF52-84B0-4710-A4EF-EF73EE5D580C@sierraweb.com>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0603011609520.26235@westnet.com>
	<20060301212919.GA647@bx9.net>
	<c1bc0b5987b7ffffdc87e4f0d65b572a@sierraweb.com>
	<20060302190534.GA19876@bx9.net>
	<a7571c02ef2eb29578bd6a73fc971e88@sierraweb.com>
	<p0620072ec02d0d663308@[10.0.1.211]>
	<97b512394db18a6a54ef360e9399e650@sierraweb.com>
	<p06200730c02dd3a6aa2a@[10.0.1.211]>
	<8DA3FF52-84B0-4710-A4EF-EF73EE5D580C@sierraweb.com>
Message-ID: <p0620073ec02e4f2a9d6d@[10.0.1.211]>

At 11:08 AM -0800 2006-03-03, Harold Paulson wrote:

>  ...for your resume first, and was suggesting a solution I thought was
>  both useful, and more...correct.

	You were saying that a non-existant magic mechanism should be 
used for the MTA to know exactly how the MLM would react to a given 
message.

	That's what I was shooting down.

>                                    I did meet Eric Allman once.  He
>  seemed nice.

	I've met Eric on several occasions, and I like to think that I've 
had a pretty good relationship with him and the company -- since 
before the company existed.

>>  	Please provide evidence for your claims.
>
>  You will have to forgive me because I have only been on the `net for a
>  minute or two, and never worked for AOL, but don't you sort of water
>  this down below and - at the perilous risk of putting words in your
>  mouth - agree that this is entirely possible, but, maybe a little work?

	Not really.  As I said, a policy daemon solution won't work very 
well -- you have to use an SMTPD_PROXY or LMTP solution instead.

	In either case, you don't have a pre-existing magic mechanism 
where the MTA automatically knows precisely how the MLM will react to 
a given message.  Instead, you've got a lot more work ahead of you to 
make use of a mechanism that MTAs may make available, but which has 
never existed for Mailman.

>>  	That would be nice, but Mailman does not, in fact, maintain such a map.
>>  It has a procedure that it goes through to determine if the user is a
>>  subscriber or should otherwise be moderated or the message should be
>>  rejected, but there is no easy "map" for this process.
>
>  Ok, maybe it's not an MTA-ready map, but Mailman looks up the sender in
>  it's subscriber database when it gets a message to a members only list,
>  right?

	That's a small part of the process, yes.  There are lots of other 
parts that you are ignoring.

>          That code exists?  And could be adapted, in a fairly
>  straight-forward manor to do exactly the same thing a few seconds
>  earlier, before your message hits disk?

	Could be adapted -- yes.

	Fairly straightforward manner? I don't know.


	I'm not a programmer, but I think it would probably be 
"Non-Trivial" to adapt that code.  However, I would be happy to be 
proven wrong.

>>  	Sure, anyone can write an SMTP or LMTP-like engine that internally
>>  goes through the processes that the MLM would normally go through, and
>>  be able to provide that information to the MTA through a proxy service,
>>  but the MTA would also have to be configured to hold the sender open
>>  while checking the proxy -- again, most MTAs are not configured to do
>>  this, and for lots of good reasons the MTA authors suggest in the
>>  strongest possible terms that you not make the mistake of configuring
>>  their software in this way.
>
>  Seems like you are imagining a lot of unnecessary plumbing.

	Demonstrate to me that you have a level of understanding of the 
problem equal to Eric Allman, Wietse Venema, Barry Warsaw, Tokio 
Kikuchi, or Mark Sapiro, and I might be willing to believe you.

	Otherwise, you're going to have to prove it to me by actually 
doing it.  Then tell me what you did, and how easy it was.

>  When you have the sender address during SMTP
>    If it's going to a known Mailman list address
>      If the sender address can't be found in the list subscriber db
>        Say no thanks...(or say please try again later)
>
>  Mailman will do all of this a second or two later anyway, right?

	Again, the connection would have been dropped by then.  That's 
why you have to cook up a complete LMTP interface for Mailman.

>  Well you know of course I was trying to goad you into writing it.  I
>  don't know Python, or have a problem with backscatter.  :)

	I'm not a programmer.  That's something I've said more than a few 
times over.

	I do have a fairly deep operational understanding of Internet 
e-mail and mailing list management systems, and I can give you plenty 
of tips and pointers of things you might need to do if you were going 
to try to build a Yahoo! or AOL-size mail system, or a mailing list 
management system of that scale.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar  3 20:58:03 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 11:58:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Large site mailman config
In-Reply-To: <44081AED.6060109@alink.co.za>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030311580302033de4d86e@msapiro>

George Barnett wrote:
>
>We have the following relevant options set:
>
>QRUNNERS = [
>     ('ArchRunner',     4), # messages for the archiver
>     ('BounceRunner',   2), # for processing the qfile/bounces directory
>     ('CommandRunner',  1), # commands and bounces from the outside world
>     ('IncomingRunner', 4), # posts from the outside world
>     ('NewsRunner',     1), # outgoing messages to the nntpd
>     ('OutgoingRunner', 4), # outgoing messages to the smtpd
>     ('VirginRunner',   1), # internally crafted (virgin birth) messages
>     ('RetryRunner',    3), # retry temporarily failed deliveries
>     ]

I doubt this is the whole problem, but the number of slices must be a
power of two even though this isn't checked - i.e., your configuration
will be accepted, but there may be issues with the retry queue.

Also, you said later in the thread that processes don't seem to be
failing. I assume you've checked both Mailman's 'error' and 'qrunner'
logs and also 'ps' when you have a problem to see that all the runners
are still there.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar  3 21:10:55 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 12:10:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Log analysis
In-Reply-To: <44084CB0.9030604@wingfoot.org>
Message-ID: <PC174020060303121055003166b61e76@msapiro>

Glenn Sieb wrote:
>
>for Newsyslog I do something like this


And for logrotate, you need something like

    postrotate
        /var/mailman/bin/mailmanctl reopen >/dev/null 2>&1 || true
    endscript

in the block for the Mailman logs.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar  3 21:14:58 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 12:14:58 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] issues with signatures
In-Reply-To: <63316.84.167.190.145.1141393740.squirrel@mail.thebiketour.net>
Message-ID: <PC174020060303121458043766b6200f@msapiro>

Dirk V?llger wrote:
>
>I want to insert ASCII-Art like to be seen here:
<snip>
>The problem is, that < is always transformed to &lt; so it becomes:
<snip>


See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.052.htp>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar  3 21:39:35 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 12:39:35 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Importing Archives Not Working
In-Reply-To: <web-2698372@commpartners.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603031239350500c83c29d7@msapiro>

Karl Zander wrote:
>
>We have messages in mbox format that we want to import.
>
>As per 5.1 from the FAQ, we used
>
>  bin/arch <list> archives/private/<list>.mbox/<list>.mbox
>
>where <list> is our list name.  We did create the list 
>before  attempting to import.
>
>
>Running arch gives this,
>
>Pickling archive state into 
>/data/mailman/archives/private/our-list/pipermail.pck
>
>then seems to return without any errors or other messages.

That should be the final message from bin/arch. If there are no
messages at all preceding that, then either there are no messages in
archives/private/<list>.mbox/<list>.mbox or it is not in the expected
format.

Also, archives/private/<list>.mbox/<list>.mbox is the default input
file for bin/arch, so the command above is equivalent to just

  bin/arch <list>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From Wayne at Ribbens.org  Fri Mar  3 22:16:41 2006
From: Wayne at Ribbens.org (Wayne Ribbens)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 14:16:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Redirect all -bounce emails
Message-ID: <028a01c63f07$c4d4f710$112ddd18@D8400>

<There are two obvious ways that jump to mind.

The first, which will address the bounce issue for all mail, is the 
following code at the beginning of the process() function in 
Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py

    # Calculate the non-VERP envelope sender.
    envsender = msgdata.get('envsender')
    if envsender is None:
        if mlist:
            envsender = mlist.GetBouncesEmail()
        else:
            envsender = Utils.get_site_email(extra='bounces')

which could simply be replaced by something like

    # Envelope sender (bounces) is always the site list.
    envsender = 'mailman at name.com'>

I put in

    envsender = 'catchbounces at domain.com'

where the address was a valid address and nothing changes.

Do I have to do anything besides modify SMTPDirect.py to make this work?








From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar  3 22:53:25 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 13:53:25 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Redirect all -bounce emails
In-Reply-To: <028a01c63f07$c4d4f710$112ddd18@D8400>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030313532501257aa6e8d6@msapiro>

Wayne Ribbens quotes me:

><There are two obvious ways that jump to mind.
>
>The first, which will address the bounce issue for all mail, is the 
>following code at the beginning of the process() function in 
>Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py
>
>    # Calculate the non-VERP envelope sender.
>    envsender = msgdata.get('envsender')
>    if envsender is None:
>        if mlist:
>            envsender = mlist.GetBouncesEmail()
>        else:
>            envsender = Utils.get_site_email(extra='bounces')
>
>which could simply be replaced by something like
>
>    # Envelope sender (bounces) is always the site list.
>    envsender = 'mailman at name.com'>


and adds:


>I put in
>
>    envsender = 'catchbounces at domain.com'
>
>where the address was a valid address and nothing changes.


What does 'nothing changes' mean in this context? What was happening
before that you wanted to change, but is still happening?


>Do I have to do anything besides modify SMTPDirect.py to make this work?


Assuming you haven't changed DELIVERY_MODULE in mm_cfg.py, that should
cause bounces from all but the most pathological MTAs to be returned
to the catchbounces at domain.com address.

Are you sure you patched the correct SMTPDirect.py, i.e. the one in the
installation  hierarchy and not in the unpack/configure hierarchy?

You do have to do 'bin/mailmanctl restart' following this change.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar  3 23:10:56 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 14:10:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Postfix + Virtual Domains + MySQL + Mailman
In-Reply-To: <A495339608834D47B69C1DC6BFD5EB2A0D3AD7@one.layer8group.local>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030314105606877aa6eb27@msapiro>

Adam Mattina wrote:
>
>/etc/postfix/main.cf
>
>---
>
>myhostname = excellence.ritphipsi.org
>mydomain = ritphipsi.org
>
>virtual_alias_maps = mysql:/etc/postfix/mysql-virtual-alias-maps.cf,
>hash:/usr/local/mailman/data/virtual-mailman
>
>owner_request_special = no

And do you also have something like

alias_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/aliases,
hash:/usr/local/mailman/data/aliases

See <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node12.html>. For Postfix
virtual domains, section 6.1.2 is in addition to, not instead of 6.1.1.

If this is not the issue, you might get better responses from Postfix
oriented support resources.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From kwz-mm at commpartners.com  Sat Mar  4 00:48:43 2006
From: kwz-mm at commpartners.com (Karl Zander)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 18:48:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Importing Archives Not Working
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603031239350500c83c29d7@msapiro>
References: <PC1740200603031239350500c83c29d7@msapiro>
Message-ID: <web-2698931@commpartners.com>

On Fri, 3 Mar 2006 12:39:35 -0800
  Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> Karl Zander wrote:
>>
>>We have messages in mbox format that we want to import.
>>
>>As per 5.1 from the FAQ, we used
>>
>>  bin/arch <list> 
>>archives/private/<list>.mbox/<list>.mbox
>>
>>where <list> is our list name.  We did create the list 
>>before  attempting to import.
>>
>>
>>Running arch gives this,
>>
>>Pickling archive state into 
>>/data/mailman/archives/private/our-list/pipermail.pck
>>
>>then seems to return without any errors or other 
>>messages.
> 
> That should be the final message from bin/arch. If there 
>are no
> messages at all preceding that, then either there are no 
>messages in
> archives/private/<list>.mbox/<list>.mbox or it is not in 
>the expected
> format.

I will have to look carefully at that mbox format.  There 
are definately messages in it.  Thunderbird reads it OK, 
but maybe Thunderbird is more forgiving of mbox 
formatting.  The messages orginated in Lyris ListManger. 
 They have a script to export to mbox format.

New messages sent to the list get appended to the end of 
the mbox file OK and do display in the archive.


--Karl


From ges+lists at wingfoot.org  Sat Mar  4 01:09:51 2006
From: ges+lists at wingfoot.org (Glenn Sieb)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 19:09:51 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Importing Archives Not Working
In-Reply-To: <web-2698931@commpartners.com>
References: <PC1740200603031239350500c83c29d7@msapiro>
	<web-2698931@commpartners.com>
Message-ID: <4408DACF.10103@wingfoot.org>

Karl Zander said the following on 3/3/2006 6:48 PM:
> I will have to look carefully at that mbox format.  There 
> are definately messages in it.  Thunderbird reads it OK, 
> but maybe Thunderbird is more forgiving of mbox 
> formatting.  The messages orginated in Lyris ListManger. 
>  They have a script to export to mbox format.

If you have mutt installed on the system, try:

mutt -f /location/of/mbox.file

And see if mutt can read the file.

> New messages sent to the list get appended to the end of 
> the mbox file OK and do display in the archive.

Do the new messages look any different then the earlier messages do?

Best,
--Glenn

-- 
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
          ~Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759


From lindahl at pbm.com  Sat Mar  4 01:16:31 2006
From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 16:16:31 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Importing Archives Not Working
In-Reply-To: <web-2698931@commpartners.com>
References: <PC1740200603031239350500c83c29d7@msapiro>
	<web-2698931@commpartners.com>
Message-ID: <20060304001631.GA3996@bx9.net>

On Fri, Mar 03, 2006 at 06:48:43PM -0500, Karl Zander wrote:

> New messages sent to the list get appended to the end of 
> the mbox file OK and do display in the archive.

Compare the "From " lines (not From:). I had to fiddle with them with
some of my archives a few years ago when I moved a list from Majordomo
to Mailman.

-- greg


From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar  4 01:16:58 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 16:16:58 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Importing Archives Not Working
In-Reply-To: <web-2698931@commpartners.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603031616580062b0ea7038@msapiro>

Karl Zander wrote:
>
>I will have to look carefully at that mbox format.  There 
>are definately messages in it.  Thunderbird reads it OK, 
>but maybe Thunderbird is more forgiving of mbox 
>formatting.  The messages orginated in Lyris ListManger. 
> They have a script to export to mbox format.
>
>New messages sent to the list get appended to the end of 
>the mbox file OK and do display in the archive.


Have you run bin/arch since new messages were added? If so, what
happens?

Ultimately you will need to run bin/arch with the --wipe option.
Otherwise, the messages that are already in the archive will appear
twice.

The bin/cleanarch script may help locate problems in the mbox file.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From kwz-mm at commpartners.com  Sat Mar  4 01:40:07 2006
From: kwz-mm at commpartners.com (Karl Zander)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 19:40:07 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Importing Archives Not Working
In-Reply-To: <20060304001631.GA3996@bx9.net>
References: <PC1740200603031239350500c83c29d7@msapiro>
	<web-2698931@commpartners.com> <20060304001631.GA3996@bx9.net>
Message-ID: <web-2698987@commpartners.com>

On Fri, 3 Mar 2006 16:16:31 -0800
  Greg Lindahl <lindahl at pbm.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 03, 2006 at 06:48:43PM -0500, Karl Zander 
>wrote:
> 
>> New messages sent to the list get appended to the end of 
>> the mbox file OK and do display in the archive.
> 
> Compare the "From " lines (not From:). I had to fiddle 
>with them with
> some of my archives a few years ago when I moved a list 
>from Majordomo
> to Mailman.

Well...its the header of the mbox exported from Lyris.

The Lyris export creates this:

 From user at example.com Thu, 01 Dec 2005 10:02:08 -0500

New messages sent via Mailman and  appended to the mbox 
show up in the Archive with this header

 From nobody Fri Mar  3 17:39:04 2006

Its the date/time format that is the problem.  I did a 
manaul edit on the Lyris export date format so it matched 
the second Mailman format and the message showed up in the 
Archives after running arch.

So I have to figure out how to change those date formats. 
 Anyone know of scripts/tools to manipulate these date 
formats?

--Karl




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sat Mar  4 01:54:07 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 01:54:07 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Importing Archives Not Working
In-Reply-To: <web-2698987@commpartners.com>
References: <PC1740200603031239350500c83c29d7@msapiro>
	<web-2698931@commpartners.com> <20060304001631.GA3996@bx9.net>
	<web-2698987@commpartners.com>
Message-ID: <p06200742c02e95711646@[10.0.1.211]>

At 7:40 PM -0500 2006-03-03, Karl Zander wrote:

>  So I have to figure out how to change those date formats.
>   Anyone know of scripts/tools to manipulate these date
>  formats?

	See FAQ 3.36.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar  4 02:43:15 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 17:43:15 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Importing Archives Not Working
In-Reply-To: <p06200742c02e95711646@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030317431505627aa6ea81@msapiro>

Brad Knowles wrote:

>At 7:40 PM -0500 2006-03-03, Karl Zander wrote:
>
>>  So I have to figure out how to change those date formats.
>>   Anyone know of scripts/tools to manipulate these date
>>  formats?
>
>	See FAQ 3.36.


The method in the FAQ is much more complete than the following, but it
is also more cumbersome if you don't already have formail and procmail
installed.

For a one time Quick and dirty to convert:

   From user at example.com Thu, 01 Dec 2005 15:02:08 -0500

to

   From user at example.com Thu Dec  1 15:02:08 2005

You can try the following:

python script.py <old_mbox >new_mbox

where script.py is between the dashed lines
----------------------------------------------------------
import sys
import time

for line in sys.stdin.readlines():
    if line.startswith('From '):
        fields = line.split()
        date = ' '.join(fields[2:7])
        try:
            t = time.strptime(date, '%a, %d %b %Y %H:%M:%S')
            newtime = time.asctime(t)
            line = ' '.join(fields[0:2] + [newtime] + ['\n'])
        except ValueError:
            pass

    sys.stdout.writelines([line])
----------------------------------------------------------

(I should add this to the FAQ)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dhc2 at dcrocker.net  Sat Mar  4 02:53:51 2006
From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 17:53:51 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net>
	<p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>	<44050590.60802@easent.net>
	<p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>
	<871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>

> You understand that and I understand that, but I don't think it's easy
> to grasp from the pages whose URLs you posted.  What _is_ easy to grasp
> is that bulk emailers who have been getting a certain level of QoS for
> free are now being asked to pay for it, and they're upset.  Stinks of
> "special interest" to high heaven.

Let me see if I understand the model:

AOL creates a specialized, rather expensive process that it provides for free, 
to ensure delivery of a class of mail.  The operation of this mechanism is pure 
overhead for AOL.  Worse, it is distinct to AOL.  To the extent any other 
receive-side ISP operates such a service, it is entirely independent of AOL. 
That is, anyone wanting on these special lists must to special things for each 
of these lists.

So along comes a few companies who are trying to find ways to let receive-side 
ISPs outsource the job of assuring that trustable bulk mail is, in fact, 
trusted.  (That is, the receiver wants this stuff and these services are 
provding ways to assure that they get it.)

These companies offer mechanisms that will work across multiple receive-side 
services and they all all charge the sender for the special handling that is 
needed to bypass most or all of the receive-side filters. (Just to nit-pick, EWL 
membership does not bypass all filters, while a Goodmail token will, as I 
understand it.)

So one of these services lands some strategic relationships and makes a splash 
announcing them. Somehow, this value-added service is heralded as subversive, in 
spite of the fact that pretty much all other communication services have levels 
of service.

I must be missing something, here.

Maybe it's the hyperbole.

Or perhaps it is my unwillingness to take *possible* mishandling of such a 
service as being the same as *definite* mishandling.  Perhaps it is just that I 
have yet to see a capability that was worth having that could not also be abused.

d/

-- 

Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
<http://bbiw.net>


From poison at list.memphistw.org  Sat Mar  4 03:30:47 2006
From: poison at list.memphistw.org (Patrick Siglin)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 20:30:47 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] gating to newsgroup
Message-ID: <20060304022913.M94408@list.memphistw.org>

Is there any special settings to recieve mail into the list from a newsgroup? 
I can get my post to my list to goto a newsgroup but have not seen it come to 
the list when I post on the newsgroup.

--
poison at list.memphistw.org



From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar  4 04:48:32 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 19:48:32 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] gating to newsgroup
In-Reply-To: <20060304022913.M94408@list.memphistw.org>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603031948320843bb8f4f4b@msapiro>

Patrick Siglin wrote:

>Is there any special settings to recieve mail into the list from a newsgroup? 
>I can get my post to my list to goto a newsgroup but have not seen it come to 
>the list when I post on the newsgroup.

You need to set gateway_to_mail to Yes on the admin->Mail<->News
gateways page and you need to be sure that cron is running
cron/gate_news on a regular basis (default every 5 minutes).

Also, check Mailman's fromusenet log in case there's something reported
there.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar  4 05:02:16 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 20:02:16 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Resetting usenet watermark?
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200602260745310703965178de@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030320021606257aa6eac1@msapiro>

On Sun, 26 Feb 2006, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>You can use bin/withlist to manipulate the list attribute
>usenet_watermark. Set it to a number 1 less than the number of the
>first article you want from the news server or to None if you just
>want to 'catch up' without retrieving articles or to 0 if you want to
>retrieve all articles on the news server.


Also, if you want to set the watermark to None to "catch up" and start
retrieving with the next post, you can use the _mass_catchup feature
on the Mail<->News gateways page rather than withlist. If you want to
set 0 or a specific message number, you still need to use withlist as
described in the prior post.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar  4 05:16:08 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 20:16:08 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] gating to newsgroup
In-Reply-To: <20060304035626.M60976@list.memphistw.org>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030320160800157aa6e857@msapiro>

Patrick Siglin wrote:

>where do I check for this? /usr/lib/mailman/cron or does this actually go 
>into like /etc/cron.daily?

Assuming /usr/lib/mailman is your installation directory,
/usr/lib/mailman/cron has the actual scripts and a crontab.in which is
meant as the default to install.

Depending on how your Mailman was installed, the actual crontab may be
mailman's crontab (usually, /var/spool/cron/mailman) which can be
listed by

crontab -u mailman -l

or if your crontab doesn't have a -u option

su - mailman
crontab -l

Or, the crontab may be in a subdirectory of /etc/cron.d in which case
it has to be listed or edited directly.


>under /usr/lib/mailman/cron
>there is an entry in crontab.in that shows gate_news for every 5 mins. I know 
>messages are getting out but I have yet to see something come in from a 
>newsgroup to the list.


As I said above, this is just the default to install. The one in this
directory is not actually used.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dmacpherson at mainframe.ca  Sat Mar  4 08:49:24 2006
From: dmacpherson at mainframe.ca (Derrick MacPherson)
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 23:49:24 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trying to make a coule site wide changes
Message-ID: <44094684.1000902@mainframe.ca>

Sorry I'm not much of a programmer, I'm trying to figure out how to make 
  a couple site wide changes using the with_list command. I've stumbled 
around and am not getting anywhere, nor have i yet found an example that 
will do what I need. I'm trying to change the list owner and the 
personalize option to 2. Anyone care to turn the lights on for me?


From cgorac at gmail.com  Sat Mar  4 09:28:37 2006
From: cgorac at gmail.com (Crni Gorac)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 09:28:37 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to disable "post requires approval" messages
Message-ID: <c02b565a0603040028r6134d16tecc1f95ca3d11451@mail.gmail.com>

I'm administering couple mailing list and during last time each day
I'm receiving  dozen of "... post from ... requires approval" messages
("As list administrator, your authorization is requested for the
following mailing list posting...") for each list, because spammers
are trying to go trough.  So I'm wondering how to disable sending this
kind of messages to list administrator address?  I was looking trough
Mailman administrative interface for my list, but wasn't able to find
anything appropriate...

Thanks.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sat Mar  4 10:00:24 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 10:00:24 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>
	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>
	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>
	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net>	<p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>
	<44050590.60802@easent.net>	<p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>
	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>
	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>
	<871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <p06200743c02f04bf2cae@[10.0.1.211]>

At 5:53 PM -0800 2006-03-03, Dave Crocker wrote:

>  AOL creates a specialized, rather expensive process that it provides for
>  free, to ensure delivery of a class of mail.

	Unless you mean "all mail" when you say "class of mail", then no 
-- not really.  So far as I know, they did not have any "certified 
mail" type of solution that they made available to the paying 
spammers.

>                                                The operation of this
>  mechanism is pure overhead for AOL.  Worse, it is distinct to AOL.  To
>  the extent any other receive-side ISP operates such a service, it is
>  entirely independent of AOL.  That is, anyone wanting on these special
>  lists must to special things for each of these lists.

	Very few other operators in the world have attempted to run an 
enforced whitelist solution of the sort that AOL has developed.  I 
disagree that this was necessary on AOL's part, but to the extent 
that it was/has been, this was just one of the prices they paid for 
being the biggest bully on the block.

	In essence, they are an attractive nuisance, and they may have to 
defend against that more vigorously than other providers might.

>  So along comes a few companies who are trying to find ways to let
>  receive-side ISPs outsource the job of assuring that trustable bulk
>  mail is, in fact, trusted.  (That is, the receiver wants this stuff and
>  these services are provding ways to assure that they get it.)

	That's the key point I don't believe.  I don't trust net-nanny 
companies to properly operate an IP-address based black list, nor do 
I trust that these kinds of operations will remain secure even if 
they could be properly operated.  See 
<http://www.boingboing.net/2006/03/01/saudi_arabia_joins_l.html> and 
<http://www.boingboing.net/censorroute.html>.

	Goodmail is just going to sell out to the highest bidder(s). 
Even if they don't do it today, they'll get bought by someone who 
will.  And then everyone who built Goodmail into their system will 
have given spammers a level of unequaled access.

>  Or perhaps it is my unwillingness to take *possible* mishandling of such
>  a service as being the same as *definite* mishandling.  Perhaps it is
>  just that I have yet to see a capability that was worth having that could
>  not also be abused.

	There's an old saying about power and corruption.  Through these 
types of deals, Goodmail will have unprecedented power over the 
mailboxes of hundreds of millions or even billions of people, and 
that kind of power is guaranteed to be absolutely corrupting.

	But then I guess you'd label me a privacy nut and go off and 
implement such systems anyway.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From ges+lists at wingfoot.org  Sat Mar  4 10:30:08 2006
From: ges+lists at wingfoot.org (Glenn Sieb)
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 04:30:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to disable "post requires approval" messages
In-Reply-To: <c02b565a0603040028r6134d16tecc1f95ca3d11451@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c02b565a0603040028r6134d16tecc1f95ca3d11451@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44095E20.9040505@wingfoot.org>

Crni Gorac said the following on 3/4/2006 3:28 AM:
> I'm administering couple mailing list and during last time each day
> I'm receiving  dozen of "... post from ... requires approval" messages
> ("As list administrator, your authorization is requested for the
> following mailing list posting...") for each list, because spammers
> are trying to go trough.  So I'm wondering how to disable sending this
> kind of messages to list administrator address?  I was looking trough
> Mailman administrative interface for my list, but wasn't able to find
> anything appropriate...

What you really need here is good spam filtering so that those messages
never make it to the lists. Disabling those administrative messages is
really a Bad Idea.. :-\

Personally, I use AMaViS and SpamAssassin, with the SpamAssassin handler
for Mailman... it works like a charm!

Best,
--Glenn

-- 
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
          ~Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759


From cgorac at gmail.com  Sat Mar  4 13:35:36 2006
From: cgorac at gmail.com (Crni Gorac)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 13:35:36 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to disable "post requires approval" messages
In-Reply-To: <44095E20.9040505@wingfoot.org>
References: <c02b565a0603040028r6134d16tecc1f95ca3d11451@mail.gmail.com>
	<44095E20.9040505@wingfoot.org>
Message-ID: <c02b565a0603040435t78d22e8cw5f183822df799a5@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/4/06, Glenn Sieb <ges+lists at wingfoot.org> wrote:
> Crni Gorac said the following on 3/4/2006 3:28 AM:
> > I'm administering couple mailing list and during last time each day
> > I'm receiving  dozen of "... post from ... requires approval" messages
> > ("As list administrator, your authorization is requested for the
> > following mailing list posting...") for each list, because spammers
> > are trying to go trough.  So I'm wondering how to disable sending this
> > kind of messages to list administrator address?  I was looking trough
> > Mailman administrative interface for my list, but wasn't able to find
> > anything appropriate...
>
> What you really need here is good spam filtering so that those messages
> never make it to the lists. Disabling those administrative messages is
> really a Bad Idea.. :-\
>
> Personally, I use AMaViS and SpamAssassin, with the SpamAssassin handler
> for Mailman... it works like a charm!
>
> Best,
> --Glenn
>
> --
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
>           ~Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
>


From henrik_Str at gmx.net  Sat Mar  4 13:58:48 2006
From: henrik_Str at gmx.net (henrik_Str at gmx.net)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 13:58:48 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to start a new list?
References: <29950.1141476694@www057.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <12895.1141477128@www057.gmx.net>

I am sorry to start this question but I am really puzzled by the fact that I
did not find helpful information about this pivotal question.

-- 
Echte DSL-Flatrate dauerhaft f?r 0,- Euro*!
"Feel free" mit GMX DSL! http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl


From tmz at pobox.com  Sat Mar  4 14:42:28 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 08:42:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to start a new list?
In-Reply-To: <12895.1141477128@www057.gmx.net>
References: <29950.1141476694@www057.gmx.net> <12895.1141477128@www057.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <20060304134228.GA1815@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

henrik_Str at gmx.net wrote:
> I am sorry to start this question but I am really puzzled by the
> fact that I did not find helpful information about this pivotal
> question.

Where did you look?  What method did you use to install mailman?  From
source?  Via a package?

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xD654075A | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Most of one's life is one prolonged effort to prevent oneself
thinking.
    -- Aldous Huxley

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: When crypto is outlawed bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.

iG0EARECAC0FAkQJmUQmGGh0dHA6Ly93d3cucG9ib3guY29tL350bXovcGdwL3Rt
ei5hc2MACgkQuv+09NZUB1pCbgCg0CV1Id2XSE8U/hp5WfiyeboT6VkAni5LgSF4
lXjlqWKwpmZNfWAKkKCM
=2Pwr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sat Mar  4 15:01:27 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 15:01:27 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>
	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>
	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>
	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net>	<p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>
	<44050590.60802@easent.net>	<p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>
	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>
	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>
	<871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <p06200745c02f48fc2b1c@[10.0.1.211]>

At 5:53 PM -0800 2006-03-03, Dave Crocker wrote:

>  So along comes a few companies who are trying to find ways to let
>  receive-side ISPs outsource the job of assuring that trustable bulk
>  mail is, in fact, trusted.  (That is, the receiver wants this stuff
>  and these services are provding ways to assure that they get it.)

	This situation is rife with cost and revenue externalities. 
Moreover, it is not even opt-out -- it is mandatory for all AOL 
users.  Fundamentally, these are the two worst aspects of spam, and 
by extension virtually all types of abuse.

	Your sole protection here is that AOL and Goodmail both promise 
that they will play nice.  History teaches us that anyone in this 
kind of situation who promises not to abuse their power is, well ... 
a fool.


	Let's look again at the general situation.  X will provide 
guaranteed access to their members for the benefit of Y and the 
customers of Y, and in return X is paid money by Y.

	Substitute "AOL" for X and "Goodmail" for Y, and you get 
precisely the situation they are moving forward with, regardless of 
all possible complaints -- see 
<http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=181500372>.

	Now, substitute "families in Eastern Europe" for X, and "pimps" 
for Y, and you get sex slaves who are forced to perform as 
prostitutes.  And we all know what kind of promises are made to these 
people before they are taken from their families.

	AOL is making their members bend over and drop their pants, and 
then will look the other way when Goodmail comes along with clients 
who pay good money to abuse those members.  That's it, plain and 
simple.


	Okay, so maybe this paid spam stuff isn't quite as bad as being 
turned into a sex slave, but the mechanisms are precisely the same -- 
your sole protection is the word of the people who are making their 
members accessible, and the word of the people who would be using 
(abusing) those members.


	If AOL wants to convince anyone that this is actually a real 
benefit, they need to do at least two things:

		1.  Remove the cost/revenue externalities.  If any money is to be
			paid for the benefit of guaranteed access to members
			mailboxes, it should be the members themselves.

			AOL should get increased revenue through making their members
			happier, and therefore keeping existing members for longer,
			and getting newer members faster than they had in the past.

		2.  Make the feature opt-in instead of opt-out or mandatory.

			If it really is good for members, they will flock to it in
			droves.

	Now, if they really want to benefit their members (and 
indirectly, benefit themselves), they need to give those members a 
way to charge considerably more than the usual and customary fee, if 
they should be hit with a particularly heinous paid spam -- a factor 
of a thousand, or more.  This would force the senders to seriously 
think twice about abusing their enhanced access.  Of course, AOL 
would never do this and Goodmail would never agree to this, because 
the paid spammers would refuse to get whacked with those kinds of 
potential charges.


	You will note that AOL is promising that their new policy won't 
hurt non-profit organizations, because they will pay for the costs 
incurred.  But this places the one party most likely to abuse the 
system as the one party that decides who they will be nice to -- yet 
another situation ripe for abuse.  AOL gets to decide who is a worthy 
non-profit organization, and everyone else can just kiss their ass.


	Take a look at what the police in Kenya are doing, and what the 
government in Darfur has turned a blind eye towards, if you need 
current examples of what happens when there isn't anyone around to 
watch the watchers.

	AOL hasn't quite gone that far (at least not yet, so far as we 
know), but they're certainly going down that path.  And they're lying 
through their teeth about the real reasons why and what will happen 
as a result, and they're going to force all their members to go along 
with this idea whether they like it or not.  And AOL will be just the 
first in a long line of companies to jack into this new and 
exceptionally profitable revenue stream.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From oliver at samera.com.py  Sat Mar  4 15:48:46 2006
From: oliver at samera.com.py (Oliver Schulze L.)
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 11:48:46 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <p06200735c02e074cc564@[10.0.1.211]>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net> <44083ADC.6010005@samera.com.py>
	<p06200735c02e074cc564@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <4409A8CE.4090307@samera.com.py>

Good idea, will do ;)

Brad Knowles wrote:
>     You could certainly go to the appropriate SourceForge page and 
> check to see if this RFE is already on the system, and if not then you 
> could file it yourself.  But if the RFE isn't filed on SourceForge, 
> then we really don't have a way to track it, and it's much less likely 
> to ever get addressed.
>

-- 
Oliver Schulze L.
<oliver at samera.com.py>



From oliver at samera.com.py  Sat Mar  4 15:59:11 2006
From: oliver at samera.com.py (Oliver Schulze L.)
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 11:59:11 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <p06200735c02e074cc564@[10.0.1.211]>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net> <44083ADC.6010005@samera.com.py>
	<p06200735c02e074cc564@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <4409AB3F.5060904@samera.com.py>

Done:
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1443069&group_id=103&atid=350103
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1219887&group_id=103&atid=350103

BTW, there are many RFE that are not asigned, is that normal?

Thanks
Oliver

Brad Knowles wrote:
>     You could certainly go to the appropriate SourceForge page and 
> check to see if this RFE is already on the system, and if not then you 
> could file it yourself.  But if the RFE isn't filed on SourceForge, 
> then we really don't have a way to track it, and it's much less likely 
> to ever get addressed.
-- 

Oliver Schulze L.
<oliver at samera.com.py>



From dhc2 at dcrocker.net  Sat Mar  4 16:36:17 2006
From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 07:36:17 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <p06200743c02f04bf2cae@[10.0.1.211]>
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>
	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>
	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>
	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net>	<p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>
	<44050590.60802@easent.net>	<p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>
	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>
	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>
	<871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>
	<p06200743c02f04bf2cae@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <4409B3F1.9010209@dcrocker.net>



Brad Knowles wrote:
> At 5:53 PM -0800 2006-03-03, Dave Crocker wrote:
> 
>>  AOL creates a specialized, rather expensive process that it provides for
>>  free, to ensure delivery of a class of mail.
> 
>     Unless you mean "all mail" when you say "class of mail", then no -- 
> not really.  So far as I know, they did not have any "certified mail" 
> type of solution that they made available to the paying spammers.

1. The effort it takes to get on the EWL and stay on it is substantial. It 
therefore creates a significant division between "all mail" and "mail from folks 
on the EWL".

2. "paying spammers" is nicely inflammatory, but factually incorrect, according 
to most definitions of spam.  In terms of the actual claimed goal for these 
types of services, in fact, it is completely and totally factually incorrect.

The claim is that the mechanism is intended for mail that receivers really want 
to get.  "Mail I don't want" is the classic form of the most extreme definition 
of spam.

Whether actual operation matches actual goal is always a good question, of 
course.  For that, one needs to look at the criteria to qualify for the program, 
its enforcement at the admission phase, and its enforcement after admission.


>>                                                The operation of this
>>  mechanism is pure overhead for AOL.  Worse, it is distinct to AOL.  To
>>  the extent any other receive-side ISP operates such a service, it is
>>  entirely independent of AOL.  That is, anyone wanting on these special
>>  lists must to special things for each of these lists.
> 
>     Very few other operators in the world have attempted to run an 
> enforced whitelist solution of the sort that AOL has developed.

That is one of my points.

   I
> disagree that this was necessary on AOL's part, but to the extent that 

I don't recall saying it was "necessary" for AOL.

I DID say that the per-ISP EWL model does not scale across ISPs.


>>  So along comes a few companies who are trying to find ways to let
>>  receive-side ISPs outsource the job of assuring that trustable bulk
>>  mail is, in fact, trusted.  (That is, the receiver wants this stuff and
>>  these services are provding ways to assure that they get it.)
> 
>     That's the key point I don't believe.  I don't trust net-nanny 
> companies to properly operate an IP-address based black list, nor do I 
> trust that these kinds of operations will remain secure even if they 
> could be properly operated. 

We all have different biases.  What we choose to trust, in the absence of 
empirical data, is a matter of personal choice.


  See
> <http://www.boingboing.net/2006/03/01/saudi_arabia_joins_l.html> and 
> <http://www.boingboing.net/censorroute.html>.

It is very much in vogue, these days, to assert such choices and claim that they 
really are based on fact. However any reasonable analysis of the basis for the 
choice turns out to have nothing to do with legitimate empirical data that is 
directly relevant to the conclusion.

More often that not a) there is no data at all, or b) the data cited are 
irrelevant, though possibly catchy and inflammatory.


>     Goodmail is just going to sell out to the highest bidder(s).

Goodmail has published criteria.  That makes one phase of analysis 
straightforward.

They have no track-record.  That makes the second phase of analysis a matter of 
pure conjecture.

If one does not find that their published criteria automatically unacceptable, 
then your statement is a prediction based on no data.

Hence it really translates into: Nobody who tries to make a profit ever has any 
integrity. (Combined with:  The market has no corrective forces against 
companies that are in the integrity business but that, themselves, have no 
integrity except to seek profit.)


  Even if
> they don't do it today, they'll get bought by someone who will.  And 
> then everyone who built Goodmail into their system will have given 
> spammers a level of unequaled access.

An argument that entropy will eventually convert the entire universe into pure 
randomness does not mean that we cannot find and enjoy productive coherence in 
the intervening eons.  As for myself, I enjoyed my dinner last night, in spite 
of knowing the the universe will eventually end.

In other words: even if you are right, the key flaw in your analysis is that it 
pertains to the indeterminate future, rather than any possible immediate benefit.


>     There's an old saying about power and corruption.

True.  That is why a) it is important to have real competition, and b) it is 
important to make sure that there are other forces to protect important 
categories of mail.

Or rather:  that is why it is important to make sure that these new services 
provided *added* services, rather than that they become the basis for *all* service.

Ignoring nit-picking about the formal definition of goodmail's "certified" mail, 
versus the formal definition of the term "certified" for postal mail, it is 
worth noting that both provide an *incremental* service on top of a basic service.

Although I understand the concern for possible loss of the basic service, I do 
not understand why anyone would object to incremental value.  I especially do 
not understand claims that an incremental service must, inevitably, cause the 
elimination of the basic service.


   Through these
> types of deals, Goodmail will have unprecedented power over the 
> mailboxes of hundreds of millions or even billions of people, and that 
> kind of power is guaranteed to be absolutely corrupting.

That is why a) their rules and actual operation need to be reasonably 
transparent, and b) community vigilance is an on-going requirement.

But the latter is true for lots of things.

For example, the fact that 60% of the end-user email market lives within a tiny 
number of service providers is something I find far scarier than an incremental 
mechanism from a third-party supplier.

d/
-- 

Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
<http://bbiw.net>


From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar  4 17:03:20 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 08:03:20 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to disable "post requires approval" messages
In-Reply-To: <c02b565a0603040028r6134d16tecc1f95ca3d11451@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC174020060304080320045383f27e99@msapiro>

Crni Gorac wrote:

>I'm administering couple mailing list and during last time each day
>I'm receiving  dozen of "... post from ... requires approval" messages
>("As list administrator, your authorization is requested for the
>following mailing list posting...") for each list, because spammers
>are trying to go trough.  So I'm wondering how to disable sending this
>kind of messages to list administrator address?  I was looking trough
>Mailman administrative interface for my list, but wasn't able to find
>anything appropriate...


It is admin_immed_notify on the General Options page.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jdereus at gmail.com  Sat Mar  4 17:06:23 2006
From: jdereus at gmail.com (Jeff DeReus)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 10:06:23 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam being posted to archives
Message-ID: <c57a6bed0603040806x90ebb2bwa465407ed4a4b214@mail.gmail.com>

I am running mailman 2.1.5 with SA 3.0.4 on FC3.  While I am now properly
tagging the mails for spam there is no reason that they should be archived
along with valid posts.  Is there a way to disable this based on header
information or some other criteria?

Thank you,
Jeff D


From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar  4 17:09:30 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 08:09:30 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to start a new list?
In-Reply-To: <12895.1141477128@www057.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <PC174020060304080930006283f27d1c@msapiro>

henrik_Str at gmx.net wrote:
>
>I am sorry to start this question but I am really puzzled by the fact that I
>did not find helpful information about this pivotal question.


>From the command line, use bin/newlist.

>From the web, follow the "create a new mailing list" link from the
admin overview page <http://www.example.com/mailman/admin> or go
directly to <http://www.example.com/mailman/create>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dhc2 at dcrocker.net  Sat Mar  4 16:58:23 2006
From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 07:58:23 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <p06200745c02f48fc2b1c@[10.0.1.211]>
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>
	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>
	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>
	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net>	<p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>
	<44050590.60802@easent.net>	<p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>
	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>
	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>
	<871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>
	<p06200745c02f48fc2b1c@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <4409B91F.6010105@dcrocker.net>

Brad Knowles wrote:
>     This situation is rife with cost and revenue externalities. 
> Moreover, it is not even opt-out -- it is mandatory for all AOL users.  

All sorts of things are "mandatory for all AOL users".  For example, the entire 
AOL spam detection and filtering mechanism is mandatory.  If AOL users find any 
of the mandatory features unacceptable, they should take their business elsewhere.

If they don't do that, then who are we to be parental and tell them that a 
particular feature is unacceptable for them?


>     Your sole protection here is that AOL and Goodmail both promise that 
> they will play nice.  History teaches us that anyone in this kind of 
> situation who promises not to abuse their power is, well ... a fool.

That's why you should note the "constant community vigilance" requirement I 
stated in the other note I just sent.

It is also why I am a big fan of real competition, since it provides a form of 
community vigilance.


>     Let's look again at the general situation.  X will provide 
> guaranteed access to their members for the benefit of Y and the 
> customers of Y, and in return X is paid money by Y.
> 
>     Substitute "AOL" for X and "Goodmail" for Y, and you get precisely 
> the situation they are moving forward with, regardless of all possible 
> complaints -- see 
> <http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=181500372>. 

The "regardless of all possible complaints" is exactly wrong, according to the 
published rules of operation.  A complaint rate from recipients determines 
continued participation in the program.

Oh.  You mean regardless of complaints from external lobbying groups who are not 
AOL customers and who have so far been showing a really excellent skill at 
invoking hyperbole and ignoring facts.


>     Now, substitute "families in Eastern Europe" for X, and "pimps" for 
> Y, and you get sex slaves who are forced to perform as prostitutes.  And 
> we all know what kind of promises are made to these people before they 
> are taken from their families.

You believe this substitution process represents the application of facts and 
logic?  For starters, note the deficiencies in the abstract model your are using.


>     If AOL wants to convince anyone that this is actually a real 
> benefit, they need to do at least two things:

You claim to know what everyone in the world requires for convincing?

I'd be interested in hearing your basis for making these claims on behalf of 
everyone in the world, or even everyone who is an AOL customer.


>     Now, if they really want to benefit their members (and indirectly, 
> benefit themselves), they need to give those members a way to charge 

And the nice thing about a free market is that you are free to build a business 
that does exactly whatever you are certain everyone requires.


>     Take a look at what the police in Kenya are doing, and what the 
> government in Darfur has turned a blind eye towards, if you need current 
> examples of what happens when there isn't anyone around to watch the 
> watchers.

Since the world is a large and diverse place, it is always possible to find an 
example of pretty much any behavior one wishes to describe.  Using that example 
as proof of the inevitability of the behavior is simply not valid, because it 
also means that there are always counter-examples.  Both cannot be inevitable to 
generalize.


>     AOL hasn't quite gone that far

No kidding.

d/
-- 

Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
<http://bbiw.net>


From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar  4 17:16:46 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 08:16:46 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] spam being posted to archives
In-Reply-To: <c57a6bed0603040806x90ebb2bwa465407ed4a4b214@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC174020060304081646065683f27f7e@msapiro>

Jeff DeReus wrote:

>I am running mailman 2.1.5 with SA 3.0.4 on FC3.  While I am now properly
>tagging the mails for spam there is no reason that they should be archived
>along with valid posts.  Is there a way to disable this based on header
>information or some other criteria?


Use admin-.Privacy options...->Spam filters->header_filter_rules to
discard Spamassassin flagged spam.  E.g., a regexp like

^x-spam-flag:\s*yes

with an action of discard.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jetta.view at gmx.de  Sat Mar  4 17:19:56 2006
From: jetta.view at gmx.de (jetta.view at gmx.de)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 17:19:56 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sorting members
Message-ID: <20060304161959.9860E1E4003@bag.python.org>

hi,

i have two lists. one has 65 members and the other one
25. the larger one is sorted by the beginning letters.
the second list not. can i configure this ? i don't want
to have a sorted list of members.


is there any posibility to export the member datas ?



thanks for your help

best regards

emmi



From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar  4 17:42:00 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 08:42:00 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trying to make a coule site wide changes
In-Reply-To: <44094684.1000902@mainframe.ca>
Message-ID: <PC174020060304084200045384eea245@msapiro>

Derrick MacPherson wrote:

>Sorry I'm not much of a programmer, I'm trying to figure out how to make 
>  a couple site wide changes using the with_list command. I've stumbled 
>around and am not getting anywhere, nor have i yet found an example that 
>will do what I need. I'm trying to change the list owner and the 
>personalize option to 2. Anyone care to turn the lights on for me?


bin/withlist --help

gives instructions. There are lots of specific withlist examples in the
archives of this list, e.g.
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-February/049447.html>.

If you need something more specific to this task, assuming you want to
set the same owner and personalize option for all lists, put the
following in bin/my_change.py

---------------------------------------------
def my_change(mlist):
    if not mlist.Locked():
        mlist.Lock()
    mlist.personalise = 2
    mlist.owner = ['owner at example.com']
    mlist.Save()
    mlist.Unlock()
---------------------------------------------

and then run

bin/withlist -a -r my_change

In this case you can accomplish the same thing with config_list instead
by putting the two lines

personalise = 2
owner = ['owner at example.com']

in a file and running something like the following shell script

#! /bin/sh
cd (the mailman install directory)
for list in `ls lists/`
do bin/config_list -i path/to/file $list
done

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From cgorac at gmail.com  Sat Mar  4 17:57:45 2006
From: cgorac at gmail.com (Crni Gorac)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 17:57:45 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to disable "post requires approval" messages
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060304080320045383f27e99@msapiro>
References: <c02b565a0603040028r6134d16tecc1f95ca3d11451@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC174020060304080320045383f27e99@msapiro>
Message-ID: <c02b565a0603040857u5d743390o7300a42ccec43332@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/4/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> Crni Gorac wrote:
>
> >I'm administering couple mailing list and during last time each day
> >I'm receiving  dozen of "... post from ... requires approval" messages
> >("As list administrator, your authorization is requested for the
> >following mailing list posting...") for each list, because spammers
> >are trying to go trough.  So I'm wondering how to disable sending this
> >kind of messages to list administrator address?  I was looking trough
> >Mailman administrative interface for my list, but wasn't able to find
> >anything appropriate...
>
>
> It is admin_immed_notify on the General Options page.

Great, thank you so much.

Regards,
Crni


From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar  4 18:01:13 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 09:01:13 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sorting members
In-Reply-To: <20060304161959.9860E1E4003@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603040901130296c6b89435@msapiro>

emmi wrote:
>
>i have two lists. one has 65 members and the other one
>25. the larger one is sorted by the beginning letters.
>the second list not. can i configure this ? i don't want
>to have a sorted list of members.


See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.030.htp>


>is there any posibility to export the member datas ?


See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.062.htp>
and the post at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-March/049701.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From henrik_Str at gmx.net  Sat Mar  4 18:08:27 2006
From: henrik_Str at gmx.net (Henrik Stromberg)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 18:08:27 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to start a new list?
References: <PC174020060304080930006283f27d1c@msapiro>
Message-ID: <1285.1141492107@www057.gmx.net>

Thank you Mark, Patrick, and Todd for your answers.

Mark, you mean first I need to set up a web page with a subfolder
mailman/admin?

Patrick, yes I mean create a new list.
I have no idea where to find a terminal createlist and how to
paste the output in /etc/aliases and then run newaliases.
I am absolute beginner to mailman and lists, just participate in two and
wondered how I could set up one myself. I wonder why this cannot be easily
found out at the web page.

Todd, I looked at
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/index.html
I have not yet installed mailman. So I need to do that? How?

Take care
Henrik


> Von: Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>
> An: henrik_Str at gmx.net, mailman-users at python.org
> Betreff: Re: [Mailman-Users] How to start a new list?
> Datum: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 08:09:30 -0800
> 
> henrik_Str at gmx.net wrote:
> >
> >I am sorry to start this question but I am really puzzled by the fact
> that I
> >did not find helpful information about this pivotal question.
> 
> 
> >>From the command line, use bin/newlist.
> 
> >>From the web, follow the "create a new mailing list" link from the
> admin overview page <http://www.example.com/mailman/admin> or go
> directly to <http://www.example.com/mailman/create>.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


> Von: "Patrick Siglin" <poison at list.memphistw.org>
> An: henrik_Str at gmx.net
> Betreff: Re: [Mailman-Users] How to start a new list?
> Datum: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 08:34:38 -0600
> 
> Do you mean create a new list?
> I do it from the terminal createlist
> paste the output in /etc/aliases and then run newaliases.
> 
> 
> --
> poison at list.memphistw.org


Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 08:42:28 -0500
From: Todd Zullinger <tmz at pobox.com>
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] How to start a new list?
To: mailman-users at python.org
Message-ID: <20060304134228.GA1815 at psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-action=pgp-signed

...

Where did you look?  What method did you use to install mailman?  From
source?  Via a package?

- --
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xD654075A | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp

-- 
Echte DSL-Flatrate dauerhaft f?r 0,- Euro*!
"Feel free" mit GMX DSL! http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl


From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar  4 18:27:05 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 09:27:05 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to start a new list?
In-Reply-To: <1285.1141492107@www057.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603040927050343c6b8945c@msapiro>

Henrik Stromberg wrote:
>
>Mark, you mean first I need to set up a web page with a subfolder
>mailman/admin?


This is done as part of the installation of Mailman.


>I am absolute beginner to mailman and lists, just participate in two and
>wondered how I could set up one myself. I wonder why this cannot be easily
>found out at the web page.


It can. You need to decide whether you are talking about creating your
own Mailman installation on your own server, or just creating a list
on some existing Mailman installation of some service provider.

In the former case, you need to download the software from
<http://sourceforge.net/projects/mailman/> and read the installation
manual at <http://list.org/mailman-install/index.html> (both of these
links can be found at <http://www.list.org/> or the mirror at
<http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/>). Or, you may be able to
install an rpm or other package from your OS vendor.

In the latter case, you need to identify and contact a provider who
will host your list for you.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From kwz-mm at commpartners.com  Sat Mar  4 19:08:05 2006
From: kwz-mm at commpartners.com (Karl Zander)
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 13:08:05 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Solved]  Importing Archives Not Working
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006030317431505627aa6ea81@msapiro>
References: <PC17402006030317431505627aa6ea81@msapiro>
Message-ID: <web-2699514@commpartners.com>

Thank you to everyone who replied to this thread.

The python code from Mark below worked nicley to convert 
the date formats.  My imported archives are visiable in 
Mailman.

--Karl


On Fri, 3 Mar 2006 17:43:15 -0800
  Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:

> The method in the FAQ is much more complete than the 
>following, but it
> is also more cumbersome if you don't already have 
>formail and procmail
> installed.
> 
>For a one time Quick and dirty to convert:
> 
>   From user at example.com Thu, 01 Dec 2005 15:02:08 -0500
> 
> to
> 
>   From user at example.com Thu Dec  1 15:02:08 2005
> 
> You can try the following:
> 
> python script.py <old_mbox >new_mbox
> 
> where script.py is between the dashed lines
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> import sys
> import time
> 
> for line in sys.stdin.readlines():
>    if line.startswith('From '):
>        fields = line.split()
>        date = ' '.join(fields[2:7])
>        try:
>            t = time.strptime(date, '%a, %d %b %Y 
>%H:%M:%S')
>            newtime = time.asctime(t)
>            line = ' '.join(fields[0:2] + [newtime] + 
>['\n'])
>        except ValueError:
>            pass
> 
>    sys.stdout.writelines([line])
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> (I should add this to the FAQ)
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for 
>gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your 
>sense - B. Dylan
> 


From henrik_Str at gmx.net  Sat Mar  4 19:11:06 2006
From: henrik_Str at gmx.net (Henrik Stromberg)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 19:11:06 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to start a new list?
References: <PC1740200603040927050343c6b8945c@msapiro>
Message-ID: <1983.1141495866@www057.gmx.net>

Hello,
Thanks again for the answers.
I do not have an own server and do not want to have my computer running all
the time so I guess the best would be to create a list on some existing
Mailman installation of some service provider. Is there any information
available how to find one? And in case I find a provider where lists can be
run, HOW do I start one?
I would like to point out that I could not find this very basic information
at the page
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/index.html
and think that this should be improved in order to spread the message about
the lists.
Take care
Henrik


> --- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht ---
> Von: Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>
> An: "Henrik Stromberg" <henrik_Str at gmx.net>
> Kopie: "Patrick Siglin" <poison at list.memphistw.org>,
> mailman-users at python.org
> Betreff: Re: [Mailman-Users] How to start a new list?
> Datum: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 09:27:05 -0800
> 
> Henrik Stromberg wrote:
> >
> >Mark, you mean first I need to set up a web page with a subfolder
> >mailman/admin?
> 
> 
> This is done as part of the installation of Mailman.
> 
> 
> >I am absolute beginner to mailman and lists, just participate in two and
> >wondered how I could set up one myself. I wonder why this cannot be
> easily
> >found out at the web page.
> 
> 
> It can. You need to decide whether you are talking about creating your
> own Mailman installation on your own server, or just creating a list
> on some existing Mailman installation of some service provider.
> 
> In the former case, you need to download the software from
> <http://sourceforge.net/projects/mailman/> and read the installation
> manual at <http://list.org/mailman-install/index.html> (both of these
> links can be found at <http://www.list.org/> or the mirror at
> <http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/>). Or, you may be able to
> install an rpm or other package from your OS vendor.
> 
> In the latter case, you need to identify and contact a provider who
> will host your list for you.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> 

-- 
Echte DSL-Flatrate dauerhaft f?r 0,- Euro*!
"Feel free" mit GMX DSL! http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sat Mar  4 19:09:00 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 19:09:00 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo
In-Reply-To: <4409AB3F.5060904@samera.com.py>
References: <20060301194603.GA22743@bx9.net> <44083ADC.6010005@samera.com.py>
	<p06200735c02e074cc564@[10.0.1.211]>
	<4409AB3F.5060904@samera.com.py>
Message-ID: <p06200748c02f87d7e660@[10.0.1.211]>

At 11:59 AM -0300 2006-03-04, Oliver Schulze L. wrote:

>  BTW, there are many RFE that are not asigned, is that normal?

	That may just mean that no one has gone in recently and assigned 
them.  There are a limited number of people who are involved in this 
process, and they may just not have had much time to work on this 
kind of stuff recently.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sat Mar  4 21:06:39 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 21:06:39 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <4409B3F1.9010209@dcrocker.net>
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>
	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>
	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>
	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net>	<p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>
	<44050590.60802@easent.net>	<p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>
	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>
	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>
	<871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>
	<p06200743c02f04bf2cae@[10.0.1.211]>
	<4409B3F1.9010209@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <p06200749c02f887b0cfc@[10.0.1.211]>

At 7:36 AM -0800 2006-03-04, Dave Crocker wrote:

>  1. The effort it takes to get on the EWL and stay on it is substantial.

	We know this.  This is why we created FAQ 3.42.

>  It therefore creates a significant division between "all mail" and "mail
>  from folks on the EWL".

	Let's go back to your original statement:

| AOL creates a specialized, rather expensive process that it provides for
| free, to ensure delivery of a class of mail.  The operation of this
| mechanism is pure overhead for AOL.  Worse, it is distinct to AOL.  To
| the extent any other receive-side ISP operates such a service, it is
| entirely independent of AOL.  That is, anyone wanting on these special
| lists must to special things for each of these lists.

	No one required AOL to create such an enhanced white list system, 
or to operate it in a manner that is so overhead-intensive.  The 
enhanced white list system that they've run in the past has been 
applicable to all mail with volumes over some pretty small amounts 
(which is why many mailing list operators run into this issue, and 
why we created FAQ 3.42).

	This is not true for the kinds of systems that you're talking 
about -- those are oriented towards commercial bulk mailers who can 
pay for guaranteed access and are not suitable for the broader 
community of not-for-profit mailing list operators.

>  The claim is that the mechanism is intended for mail that receivers
>  really want to get.  "Mail I don't want" is the classic form of the
>  most extreme definition of spam.

	Sounds like the "I-Can-Spam" law to me.  I mean, all good 
spammers actually give you a way to unsubscribe, right?

>  Whether actual operation matches actual goal is always a good question,
>  of course.  For that, one needs to look at the criteria to qualify for
>  the program, its enforcement at the admission phase, and its enforcement
>  after admission.

	That's closing the barn door after we've let the horse run out 
into a firestorm that we know would be likely to happen.

>  I DID say that the per-ISP EWL model does not scale across ISPs.

	True enough, but the "I paid my money so I get guaranteed access 
to your mailbox" model of Goodmail is not an appropriate solution to 
this problem.

>>   See
>>  <http://www.boingboing.net/2006/03/01/saudi_arabia_joins_l.html>
>>  and <http://www.boingboing.net/censorroute.html>.
>
>  It is very much in vogue, these days, to assert such choices and claim
>  that they really are based on fact. However any reasonable analysis of
>  the basis for the choice turns out to have nothing to do with legitimate
>  empirical data that is directly relevant to the conclusion.

	I think that BoingBoing has some pretty clear proof of what's 
being done to them, although they can only speculate as to why.  They 
certainly know what's being done to their readership and that this 
classification is unjust and unfair, and they know a fair amount 
about how to work around such stupid procedures.

	Do you have any proof of anything they have said on this subject 
that is not accurate?


	Let's generalize this a bit -- BoingBoing is a special case, but 
we know that there have been many such cases in the past, where pages 
were blocked by badly operated web filtering systems, and where the 
operators themselves admitted their incompetence and reversed the 
action.

	Do you have any proof that none of these things have ever happened?


	Can you provide any such proof, in either event?

>  If one does not find that their published criteria automatically
>  unacceptable, then your statement is a prediction based on no data.

	It's based on human history.  They have a huge financial 
incentive to sell access to those mailboxes to the highest bidder. 
Where are the checks and balances on this process?

>  Hence it really translates into: Nobody who tries to make a profit ever
>  has any integrity.

	There are some.  But they are few and far between.  And the 
larger they are, the less likely they are to have any integrity at 
the corporate level, even if many of the people they employ may have 
a high level of personal integrity.

>  An argument that entropy will eventually convert the entire universe into
>  pure randomness does not mean that we cannot find and enjoy productive
>  coherence in the intervening eons.  As for myself, I enjoyed my dinner
>  last night, in spite of knowing the the universe will eventually end.

	True enough, but when we see cases where people are whipping up a 
whole bunch of entropy and putting things in dangerous proximity to 
that, should we not speak up?

	If vandals were to take down every street sign and signal, and 
then you saw a bunch of old ladies walking down the sidewalk towards 
a street where a bunch of hooligans are known to drive their cars 
recklessly and with complete disregard for their own life or safety 
much less anyone else's, do we not have a moral imperative to do 
everything we can to try to prevent the likely disaster from 
occurring?

>>      There's an old saying about power and corruption.
>
>  True.  That is why a) it is important to have real competition, and b)
>  it is important to make sure that there are other forces to protect
>  important categories of mail.

	Neither of which are present in this case.  There are no real 
competitors for AOL in the minds of most AOL customers -- that's the 
only thing they know, and short of a nuclear bomb being dropped on 
North Virginia (thus wiping out AOL's main operations facility in 
Sterling), nothing is going to get them to change providers.

	They will simply grin and bear whatever abuse that may be heaped 
on them, or maybe one day they will decide that nothing is worth this 
and just go away.  Neither of these outcomes are appropriate.


	Moreover, if we don't stand up to protect those users, who will? 
Once those users are taken out, is there going to be anyone left who 
can stand up for you and me?

>  Or rather:  that is why it is important to make sure that these new
>  services provided *added* services, rather than that they become the
>  basis for *all* service.

	Which is another problem here, since we know from AOL's past 
behaviour what they will do under these circumstances.

>  Ignoring nit-picking about the formal definition of goodmail's "certified"
>  mail, versus the formal definition of the term "certified" for postal mail,
>  it is worth noting that both provide an *incremental* service on top of a
>  basic service.

	The potential is there for an incremental service, yes.  But the 
economic incentives are not.

>  Although I understand the concern for possible loss of the basic service,
>  I do not understand why anyone would object to incremental value.  I
>  especially do not understand claims that an incremental service must,
>  inevitably, cause the elimination of the basic service.

	So long as it's truly incremental, and participation is optional, 
I have no problem with it.  Violate either of those principles, and 
there is a problem.

>  For example, the fact that 60% of the end-user email market lives within
>  a tiny number of service providers is something I find far scarier than
>  an incremental mechanism from a third-party supplier.

	Except when one of those principal providers starts doing stupid 
things, thus endangering a large part of the overall population, and 
setting a bad example that many of the other primary providers are 
then likely to try to follow.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sat Mar  4 21:21:34 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 21:21:34 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <4409B91F.6010105@dcrocker.net>
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>
	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>
	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>
	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net>	<p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>
	<44050590.60802@easent.net>	<p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>
	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>
	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>
	<871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>
	<p06200745c02f48fc2b1c@[10.0.1.211]>
	<4409B91F.6010105@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <p0620074ac02fa3ea7afe@[10.0.1.211]>

At 7:58 AM -0800 2006-03-04, Dave Crocker wrote:

>  All sorts of things are "mandatory for all AOL users".  For example,
>  the entire AOL spam detection and filtering mechanism is mandatory.

	Actually, it's not.  You can opt out of the spam detection and 
filtering mechanism, if you so choose.

	I don't think you can opt out of the paid spammer solution from Goodmail.

>  If AOL users find any of the mandatory features unacceptable, they should
>  take their business elsewhere.

	Also agreed, but as we both know, that's unlikely to happen for 
most of the AOL users, regardless of what AOL chooses to do to them.

>  If they don't do that, then who are we to be parental and tell them that
>  a particular feature is unacceptable for them?

	When a particular feature sets a heinously bad example for the 
others to follow?

>  That's why you should note the "constant community vigilance" requirement
>  I stated in the other note I just sent.

	But that vigilance isn't going to be there.  Goodmail's operation 
is kept secret, locked behind a private door.  Same for AOL.  And if 
we're not going to stand up for the AOL users against the abuse that 
AOL is going to do to them (or allow others to do while they are paid 
to look the other way), then who is?

>  It is also why I am a big fan of real competition, since it provides a form
>  of community vigilance.

	Agreed, but such competition is not going to be found.  Not at 
Goodmail, not at AOL.

>  Oh.  You mean regardless of complaints from external lobbying groups who
>  are not AOL customers and who have so far been showing a really excellent
>  skill at invoking hyperbole and ignoring facts.

	No, I mean the only people who are speaking up on behalf of AOL 
users who are being categorically lied to and hoodwinked by their ISP.

	Or do we need to get into quotes from Rev. Martin Niemoller?

>>      If AOL wants to convince anyone that this is actually a real
>>  benefit, they need to do at least two things:
>
>  You claim to know what everyone in the world requires for convincing?

	All the complaints I've seen so far would be answered by these 
two steps, so far as I can tell.  So, yes -- I'm pretty convinced 
that these are the two necessary steps.

>  Since the world is a large and diverse place, it is always possible to find
>  an example of pretty much any behavior one wishes to describe.  Using that
>  example as proof of the inevitability of the behavior is simply not valid,
>  because it also means that there are always counter-examples.

	The problem is that human history is rife with examples of this 
kind of abuse by those in power of those who have no power, for as 
long as human history has existed.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sat Mar  4 21:47:16 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 21:47:16 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to start a new list?
In-Reply-To: <1983.1141495866@www057.gmx.net>
References: <PC1740200603040927050343c6b8945c@msapiro>
	<1983.1141495866@www057.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <p0620074cc02fabcd542a@[10.0.1.211]>

At 7:11 PM +0100 2006-03-04, Henrik Stromberg wrote:

>  I do not have an own server and do not want to have my computer running all
>  the time so I guess the best would be to create a list on some existing
>  Mailman installation of some service provider. Is there any information
>  available how to find one?

	There is a partial list of Python/Mailman providers in FAQ 1.17 
at 
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.017.htp>, 
but such a list can only ever be partial -- there's always going to 
be some providers who used to do things and got on the list but no 
longer do them, some new providers who didn't used to provide certain 
services but now do and yet still aren't on the list, etc....

	On this topic, this page is the best starting point that we know of.

>                             And in case I find a provider where lists can be
>  run, HOW do I start one?

	A lot is going to depend on the specific provider and how their 
software is set up.

	For many providers, I would expect that they won't actually give 
you the rights and privileges necessary to actually create new lists 
yourself.  Instead, in all likelihood you will to contact them and 
tell them what kind of list you want and what you want the name to 
be, and they will do the basic work for you.

	From there, they will give you the admin URL and password 
necessary so that you can configure your list in the way you want.

>  I would like to point out that I could not find this very basic information
>  at the page
>  http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/index.html
>  and think that this should be improved in order to spread the message about
>  the lists.

	That's because there are too many variables in this process. 
I've outlined only the most basic process above.  If you actually run 
Mailman on your own server, the process will be more complex.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sat Mar  4 21:55:30 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 21:55:30 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing   lists?
In-Reply-To: <p0620074ac02fa3ea7afe@[10.0.1.211]>
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>
	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>
	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>
	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net>	<p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>
	<44050590.60802@easent.net>	<p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>
	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>
	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>
	<871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>
	<p06200745c02f48fc2b1c@[10.0.1.211]>
	<4409B91F.6010105@dcrocker.net>
	<p0620074ac02fa3ea7afe@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <p0620074dc02faeb70309@[10.0.1.211]>

At 9:21 PM +0100 2006-03-04, Brad Knowles wrote:

>>   All sorts of things are "mandatory for all AOL users".  For example,
>>   the entire AOL spam detection and filtering mechanism is mandatory.
>
>  	Actually, it's not.  You can opt out of the spam detection and
>  filtering mechanism, if you so choose.
>
>  	I don't think you can opt out of the paid spammer solution from Goodmail.

	Moreover, you shouldn't have to -- it should be opt-in only.  Not 
mandatory.  Not opt-out.  Opt-in.

	This is the mantra that the entire anti-spam community has been 
chanting for years, and the statement is just as true of paid spammer 
... sorry, commercial bulk-mailer ... operations, such as Goodmail.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dhc2 at dcrocker.net  Sat Mar  4 22:40:56 2006
From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 13:40:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <p0620074ac02fa3ea7afe@[10.0.1.211]>
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>
	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>
	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>
	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net>	<p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>
	<44050590.60802@easent.net>	<p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>
	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>
	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>
	<871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>
	<p06200745c02f48fc2b1c@[10.0.1.211]>
	<4409B91F.6010105@dcrocker.net>
	<p0620074ac02fa3ea7afe@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <440A0968.5090900@dcrocker.net>




>     I don't think you can opt out of the paid spammer solution from 
> Goodmail.

Brad,

I had hoped that there might be a basis for some constructive dialogue.  However 
you persist in using hyperbole like "paid spammer solution", and seem to be 
taking in none of the points I have been raising, except as sounding boards for 
repeating your assertions that abuse is certain.

Hyperbole is wonderfully satisfying to the person uttering it, and utterly 
destructive for any serious dialogue.

So, I think we are done.


d/
-- 

Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
<http://bbiw.net>


From jimpop at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  4 23:28:51 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 17:28:51 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <440A0968.5090900@dcrocker.net>
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net>	<p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>	<44050590.60802@easent.net>	<p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>	<871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>	<p06200745c02f48fc2b1c@[10.0.1.211]>	<4409B91F.6010105@dcrocker.net>	<p0620074ac02fa3ea7afe@[10.0.1.211]>
	<440A0968.5090900@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <440A14A3.9050402@yahoo.com>

Dave Crocker wrote:
> Brad,
> 
> I had hoped that there might be a basis for some constructive dialogue.  However 
> you persist in using hyperbole like "paid spammer solution", and seem to be 
> taking in none of the points I have been raising, except as sounding boards for 
> repeating your assertions that abuse is certain.
> 
> Hyperbole is wonderfully satisfying to the person uttering it, and utterly 
> destructive for any serious dialogue.
> 
> So, I think we are done.

Can we get this put into a FAQ.  :-)

-Jim P.






From justbrits at comcast.net  Sat Mar  4 23:33:39 2006
From: justbrits at comcast.net (Ed)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 16:33:39 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net>	<p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>	<44050590.60802@easent.net>	<p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>	<871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>	<p06200745c02f48fc2b1c@[10.0.1.211]>	<4409B91F.6010105@dcrocker.net>	<p0620074ac02fa3ea7afe@[10.0.1.211]><440A0968.5090900@dcrocker.net>
	<440A14A3.9050402@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00fc01c63fdb$af5e2c10$6701a8c0@actualshop>

<<Can we get this put into a FAQ.>>

Forget About Quasimo....?

Never mind.

LOL

Ed


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Mar  5 00:34:22 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 00:34:22 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <440A0968.5090900@dcrocker.net>
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>
	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>
	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>
	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net>	<p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>
	<44050590.60802@easent.net>	<p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>
	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>
	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>
	<871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>
	<p06200745c02f48fc2b1c@[10.0.1.211]>
	<4409B91F.6010105@dcrocker.net>
	<p0620074ac02fa3ea7afe@[10.0.1.211]>
	<440A0968.5090900@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <p0620074ec02fd2c876ed@[10.0.1.211]>

At 1:40 PM -0800 2006-03-04, Dave Crocker wrote:

>  I had hoped that there might be a basis for some constructive dialogue.

	As had I.

>  However you persist in using hyperbole like "paid spammer solution",
>  and seem to be taking in none of the points I have been raising, except
>  as sounding boards for repeating your assertions that abuse is certain.

	I'm sure you won't be surprised if I don't see it as hyperbole, 
but merely pointing out where this road is clearly headed.

	To my astonishment, you seem to be interested in doing nothing 
except acting as a corporate shill.

>  So, I think we are done.

	Agreed, nothing more is going to come out of this.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dhc2 at dcrocker.net  Sun Mar  5 00:58:47 2006
From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 15:58:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <p0620074ec02fd2c876ed@[10.0.1.211]>
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net>	<p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>	<44050590.60802@easent.net>	<p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>	<871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>	<p06200745c02f48fc2b1c@[10.0.1.211]>	<4409B91F.6010105@dcrocker.net>	<p0620074ac02fa3ea7afe@[10.0.1.211]>	<440A0968.5090900@dcrocker.net>
	<p0620074ec02fd2c876ed@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <440A29B7.1000008@dcrocker.net>



> 	To my astonishment, you seem to be interested in doing nothing 
> except acting as a corporate shill.


I was raised during a time in which parents were told to distinguish between 
saying to their kids "you are doing a bad thing" versus "you are a bad person".

Does this have any rules about ad hominem attacks?

d/


-- 

Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
<http://bbiw.net>


From justbrits at comcast.net  Sun Mar  5 01:03:31 2006
From: justbrits at comcast.net (Ed)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 18:03:31 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net>	<p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>	<44050590.60802@easent.net>	<p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>	<871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>	<p06200745c02f48fc2b1c@[10.0.1.211]>	<4409B91F.6010105@dcrocker.net>	<p0620074ac02fa3ea7afe@[10.0.1.211]>	<440A0968.5090900@dcrocker.net><p0620074ec02fd2c876ed@[10.0.1.211]>
	<440A29B7.1000008@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <029501c63fe8$3d6639b0$6701a8c0@actualshop>

<<Can we get this put into a FAQ.>>

Forget About Quasimo....?

Never mind.

LOL

Ed


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Mar  5 02:08:16 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 02:08:16 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <440A29B7.1000008@dcrocker.net>
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>
	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>
	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>
	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net>	<p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>
	<44050590.60802@easent.net>	<p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>
	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>
	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>
	<871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>
	<p06200745c02f48fc2b1c@[10.0.1.211]>
	<4409B91F.6010105@dcrocker.net>
	<p0620074ac02fa3ea7afe@[10.0.1.211]>
	<440A0968.5090900@dcrocker.net>
	<p0620074ec02fd2c876ed@[10.0.1.211]>
	<440A29B7.1000008@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <p0620074fc02fe5b4e665@[10.0.1.211]>

At 3:58 PM -0800 2006-03-04, Dave Crocker wrote:

>>  	To my astonishment, you seem to be interested in doing nothing
>>  except acting as a corporate shill.
>
>  I was raised during a time in which parents were told to distinguish
>  between saying to their kids "you are doing a bad thing" versus "you are
>  a bad person".
>
>  Does this have any rules about ad hominem attacks?

	Did I actually call you a corporate shill?  Did I say that's what 
you're actually doing?

	I think maybe you skipped over a few words in there that should 
leave you plenty of room to prove that you may be creating the 
appearance of acting like a corporate shill, but in fact you are 
doing something totally different and the problem is that there is a 
misperception that is being created.

	I can't say that I take this level of care with everything I 
write, but for that line in particular I carefully wrote, re-wrote, 
and re-wrote it again, many times over, before I sent that message.


	I've had a great deal of respect for you over the years, and 
that's why I've been so astonished to see you (of all people) 
defending the likes of AOL on this subject -- they may have still 
been "good guys" when I was working there and when Jay Levitt sent me 
(on two days notice) to the conference where we met for the first 
time, but those times are long since gone, and AOL has been a creator 
of their own evil empire for quite a while.

	Yes, there are some people there who have a certain degree of 
personal integrity (e.g., Carl Hutzler), but that is in spite of what 
the company has become and not because of it.

	I know too many people who used to work for the company and who 
can go on ad nauseum about the evil things that were done while they 
were around, and ended up being major contributors to their 
ultimately leaving.  I have my own first-hand experience, and I have 
a number of former co-workers who have related their own first-hand 
experience.  There is nothing you or anyone else can say that can 
convince me otherwise.

	Okay, Google and Microsoft may be worse, but that doesn't mean 
that AOL is Snow White.  It's more like they're all different 
flavours of Teflon-coated cookware, and while some may be somewhat 
worse than others, they're all major sources of carcinogens and 
contribute all other sorts of horrible nastiness to the biosphere -- 
a fact which DuPont knew back in the 1950s and which they contrived 
to hide from the public.


	Given what I know of you and your history, the only conclusion I 
can come to is that maybe you've been paid by AOL or Goodmail as a 
consultant, and therefore you come to this discussion carrying a 
certain amount and type of baggage that prevents you from seeing the 
forest for the trees that you helped to plant.

	I'm not assuming malice here where I can clearly see other 
factors that are much more likely reasons for your apparent 
behaviour, but that doesn't change the perception of what it is that 
I'm seeing.


	Please, give me something I can hold onto to show that you 
haven't sold us all out.  Right now, I'm not seeing anything, but I'd 
love to be proved wrong.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From justbrits at comcast.net  Sun Mar  5 02:27:21 2006
From: justbrits at comcast.net (Ed)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 19:27:21 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net><Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com><43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net><012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1><43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net>	<p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]><44050590.60802@easent.net>	<p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]><p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]><87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp><p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]><871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp><4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net><p06200745c02f48fc2b1c@[10.0.1.211]><4409B91F.6010105@dcrocker.net><p0620074ac02fa3ea7afe@[10.0.1.211]><440A0968.5090900@dcrocker.net><p0620074ec02fd2c876ed@[10.0.1.211]><440A29B7.1000008@dcrocker.net>
	<p0620074fc02fe5b4e665@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <03b401c63ff3$f33e3160$6701a8c0@actualshop>

<<Please, give me something I can hold onto to show that you
haven't sold us all out. >>

Being somewhat of a "stranger" here but do know how to read and understand,
it would seem that way?!?!?

<< Right now, I'm not seeing anything, but I'd
love to be proved wrong.>>

Ditto.

Seems to me, the gent 'doth protest too much?!?!?

Ed

PS:  And yes, I AM a serious HATER of AOL -:)  BTDT.



From dhc2 at dcrocker.net  Sun Mar  5 02:33:03 2006
From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 17:33:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <p0620074fc02fe5b4e665@[10.0.1.211]>
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>
	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>
	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>
	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net>	<p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>
	<44050590.60802@easent.net>	<p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>
	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>
	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>
	<871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>
	<p06200745c02f48fc2b1c@[10.0.1.211]>
	<4409B91F.6010105@dcrocker.net>
	<p0620074ac02fa3ea7afe@[10.0.1.211]>
	<440A0968.5090900@dcrocker.net>
	<p0620074ec02fd2c876ed@[10.0.1.211]>
	<440A29B7.1000008@dcrocker.net>
	<p0620074fc02fe5b4e665@[10.0.1.211]>
Message-ID: <440A3FCF.5070101@dcrocker.net>



 >     Did I actually call you a corporate shill?  Did I say that's what
 > you're actually doing?


yes.

d/


ps.  Given how careless and aggressive you have been in this exchange, so far, 
please don't try to resort to a game of semantics.  Your language was plain and 
direct.

-- 

Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
<http://bbiw.net>
-- 

Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
<http://bbiw.net>


From lists05 at equinephotoart.com  Sun Mar  5 09:08:40 2006
From: lists05 at equinephotoart.com (JC Dill)
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 00:08:40 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ADMIN - Staying on topic - spam
 filtering/reflecting and list management philosophy are not on topic....
Message-ID: <440A9C88.4060301@equinephotoart.com>

Hey folks, can we try to remember that this is the "mailman-users" list?

Discussions about list management philosophy belong on list-managers:

<http://www.greatcircle.com/lists/list-managers/>

and discussions about spam filtering or spam reflecting belong on spam-l:

<http://www.claws-and-paws.com/spam-l/>

or your other favorite forum for discussing spam and spam filtering 
philosophy.

Or take the discussion to private email.

Please limit your discussions on these topics on this list on how to 
implement specific features *in mailman*, OK?

Thanks!

jc - assistant mailman-users admin


From jack at chezaubert.net  Sun Mar  5 14:58:29 2006
From: jack at chezaubert.net (Jack Aubert)
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 08:58:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Importing messages into the archive
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20060305085820.030adda0@cpcug.org>

Can anybody tell me how to import a bunch of messages into a mailman 
archive?  I established a mailing list for a group that had been sending 
each other messages for about 4 months before we got it all consolidated 
with a web site and Mailman list.  I would like to capture a lot of the 
earlier messages and put them into the archives if possible with the 
original dates and sender information but particularly without having to 
resend them to the list so they go to everybody on it a second time.

Jack Aubert 



From manuel at escapade.ch  Sun Mar  5 15:56:02 2006
From: manuel at escapade.ch (Manuel Goepfert)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 15:56:02 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Importing messages into the archive
In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20060305085820.030adda0@cpcug.org>
Message-ID: <005001c64065$0320beb0$6310a8c0@newgauche>



-----Message d'origine-----
De?: mailman-users-bounces+manuel=escapade.ch at python.org
[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+manuel=escapade.ch at python.org] De la part de
Jack Aubert
Envoy??: dimanche 5 mars 2006 14:58
??: mailman-users at python.org
Objet?: [Mailman-Users] Importing messages into the archive

Can anybody tell me how to import a bunch of messages into a mailman 
Archive ?

Hello,

Can be done via bin/arch file.

When in mailman :
bin/arch name_of_the_list file_to_import

The file to import should be in mbox format

Manuel



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Mar  6 00:07:29 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 00:07:29 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Importing messages into the archive
In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20060305085820.030adda0@cpcug.org>
References: <6.1.0.6.2.20060305085820.030adda0@cpcug.org>
Message-ID: <p06200753c0311f9e71bc@[10.0.1.211]>

At 8:58 AM -0500 2006-03-05, Jack Aubert wrote:

>  Can anybody tell me how to import a bunch of messages into a mailman
>  archive?

	You could go to the FAQ Wizard and search for "import" or "archive".

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From jdereus at gmail.com  Mon Mar  6 00:52:53 2006
From: jdereus at gmail.com (Jeff DeReus)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 17:52:53 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] using an ORBS type lookup to auto reject posts
Message-ID: <c57a6bed0603051552y2e87f7b6l1a7b94a4b4082c75@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I was curious if there is some sort of mechanism in mailman 2.1.5 to reverse
lookup (?)  the poster via some sort of ORBS type database without manually
blacklisting all the different addresses that are out there.  Any help or
leads to documentation would be helpful.
Currently running sendmail with mailman.

Thank you,
Jeff D


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Mar  6 01:11:24 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 01:11:24 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] using an ORBS type lookup to auto reject posts
In-Reply-To: <c57a6bed0603051552y2e87f7b6l1a7b94a4b4082c75@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c57a6bed0603051552y2e87f7b6l1a7b94a4b4082c75@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06200756c0312e32dc75@[10.0.1.211]>

At 5:52 PM -0600 2006-03-05, Jeff DeReus wrote:

>  I was curious if there is some sort of mechanism in mailman 2.1.5 to reverse
>  lookup (?)  the poster via some sort of ORBS type database without manually
>  blacklisting all the different addresses that are out there.  Any help or
>  leads to documentation would be helpful.

	This kind of stuff belongs in the MTA, or as part of the 
anti-spam/anti-virus/anti-abuse mail filtering system that you use in 
conjunction with the MTA.  By the time the message has gotten to 
Mailman then you've already lost the battle, if you're trying to do 
these kinds of lookups.

	These kinds of things are only useful to do before you accept the 
message, and that can only be done within the MTA, or within the 
before-queue mail filtering system that works with the MTA.  If you 
don't keep the stuff off your server to begin with, then you've 
already lost.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From camberwell at camberwellcarrot.net  Mon Mar  6 01:03:06 2006
From: camberwell at camberwellcarrot.net (Camberwell)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 00:03:06 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive not updating properly
Message-ID: <440B7C3A.80406@camberwellcarrot.net>

Hi there,

I'm using Fedora Core 3 and Mailman 2.1.7, when i first installed it 
everything was fine. then one day i noticed 2 sets of python mailman 
process's running in the process list, so i did..

service mailman stop

looked at the process's again and there was still a set of mailman 
process's there, so i had to kill it.
i did "service mailman start" and it all started up again, then noticed 
that the archive didn't have the last month on it.

i did a bit of searching and thought it maybe a permision problem so i 
went to /usr/lib/mailman/bin and ran..

[root at camberwellcarrot bin]# ./check_perms
Warning: Private archive directory is other-executable (o+x).
         This could allow other users on your system to read private 
archives.
         If you're on a shared multiuser system, you should consult the
         installation manual on how to fix this.
No problems found

and thought this isn't anything to worry about as this isn't a public 
server, so next i ran arch and found
that
/usr/lib/mailman/archives/public/<list-name> is updating
/var/lib/mailman/archive/public/<list-name> is not

does anyone have a suggestion as to why /var/lib/archive is not updating???

Thanks in advance

Martin


From jdereus at gmail.com  Mon Mar  6 02:05:08 2006
From: jdereus at gmail.com (Jeff DeReus)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 19:05:08 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] using an ORBS type lookup to auto reject posts
In-Reply-To: <p06200756c0312e32dc75@10.0.1.211>
References: <c57a6bed0603051552y2e87f7b6l1a7b94a4b4082c75@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06200756c0312e32dc75@10.0.1.211>
Message-ID: <c57a6bed0603051705m2340b748v6c0f2b615a14ae56@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Brad for all of your help to my posts over the past weeks/days,
who knows sometimes when you get busy. I will have to look into tying in
spamassassin to those mailman lists.  currently they are private so the only
person who gets the post is myself as list-admin.  i was simply looking for
a quick way to unclutter my inbox.

Thank you,
Jeff D

On 3/5/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
>
> At 5:52 PM -0600 2006-03-05, Jeff DeReus wrote:
>
> >  I was curious if there is some sort of mechanism in mailman 2.1.5 to
> reverse
> >  lookup (?)  the poster via some sort of ORBS type database without
> manually
> >  blacklisting all the different addresses that are out there.  Any help
> or
> >  leads to documentation would be helpful.
>
>         This kind of stuff belongs in the MTA, or as part of the
> anti-spam/anti-virus/anti-abuse mail filtering system that you use in
> conjunction with the MTA.  By the time the message has gotten to
> Mailman then you've already lost the battle, if you're trying to do
> these kinds of lookups.
>
>         These kinds of things are only useful to do before you accept the
> message, and that can only be done within the MTA, or within the
> before-queue mail filtering system that works with the MTA.  If you
> don't keep the stuff off your server to begin with, then you've
> already lost.
>
> --
> Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
>
> "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
> temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
>
>      -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
>      Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
>
>   LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.
>


From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar  6 02:38:22 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 17:38:22 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive not updating properly
In-Reply-To: <440B7C3A.80406@camberwellcarrot.net>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030517382200300d8802b4@msapiro>

Camberwell wrote:
>
>so next i ran arch and found
>that
>/usr/lib/mailman/archives/public/<list-name> is updating
>/var/lib/mailman/archive/public/<list-name> is not
>
>does anyone have a suggestion as to why /var/lib/archive is not updating???


I am very confused. There should be no archives in any archives/public
directories, only symlinks to the corresponding archives/private
directories.

Also, there should only be one set of private and public archives in
the directories defined by PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_FILE_DIR and
PRIVATE_ARCHIVE_FILE_DIR in Defaults.py/mm_cfg.py. In a standard
distribution the normal default for these is
/usr/lib/mailman/archives/public and
/usr/lib/mailman/archives/private, although in RedHat's fc3 package, I
believe the locations would be /var/lib/mailman/archives/public and
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private.

Did you perhaps install RedHat's rpm initially and then upgrade from
source or something like that?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From root at home.mbg.it  Mon Mar  6 02:16:01 2006
From: root at home.mbg.it (root)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 02:16:01 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MAIL FROM GioMBG > It's possible to modify the
	archive?
Message-ID: <200603060216.01122.root@home.mbg.it>

It's possible to modify the archive?
and if is possible where I can get info about make it?
kindly
GioMBG
-- 
Gio "MBG" Canepa - E mail: server at home.mbg.it
PLEASE NOTIFY ALL MAIL TOO admin at mbg.it
NEED HELP TO USE home.MBG.it? mailman at home.mbg.it
Phone Fax +39 0541 985 737 Mobile +39 393 33 567 07
http://www.home.mbg.it | http://www.GioMBG.com
Snail mail P.O. Box 59 47854 Riccione (RN) Italy


From root at home.mbg.it  Mon Mar  6 02:14:50 2006
From: root at home.mbg.it (root)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 02:14:50 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail from GioMBG > Where I can have info to have a
	VERY GOOD template like the mail archive template?
Message-ID: <200603060214.50205.root@home.mbg.it>

Hi All!
This template it's VERY GOOD!
Where I can get some info to make a template like this with searcher and ADS 
by Google?
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
MANY THANKs
GioMBG
-- 
Gio "MBG" Canepa - E mail: server at home.mbg.it
PLEASE NOTIFY ALL MAIL TOO admin at mbg.it
NEED HELP TO USE home.MBG.it? mailman at home.mbg.it
Phone Fax +39 0541 985 737 Mobile +39 393 33 567 07
http://www.home.mbg.it | http://www.GioMBG.com
Snail mail P.O. Box 59 47854 Riccione (RN) Italy


From camberwell at camberwellcarrot.net  Mon Mar  6 03:07:38 2006
From: camberwell at camberwellcarrot.net (Camberwell)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 02:07:38 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive not updating properly
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006030517382200300d8802b4@msapiro>
References: <PC17402006030517382200300d8802b4@msapiro>
Message-ID: <440B996A.5040602@camberwellcarrot.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Camberwell wrote:
>  
>
>>so next i ran arch and found
>>that
>>/usr/lib/mailman/archives/public/<list-name> is updating
>>/var/lib/mailman/archive/public/<list-name> is not
>>
>>does anyone have a suggestion as to why /var/lib/archive is not updating???
>>    
>>
>
>
>I am very confused. There should be no archives in any archives/public
>directories, only symlinks to the corresponding archives/private
>directories.
>
>Also, there should only be one set of private and public archives in
>the directories defined by PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_FILE_DIR and
>PRIVATE_ARCHIVE_FILE_DIR in Defaults.py/mm_cfg.py. In a standard
>distribution the normal default for these is
>/usr/lib/mailman/archives/public and
>/usr/lib/mailman/archives/private, although in RedHat's fc3 package, I
>believe the locations would be /var/lib/mailman/archives/public and
>/var/lib/mailman/archives/private.
>
>Did you perhaps install RedHat's rpm initially and then upgrade from
>source or something like that?
>
>  
>
Yes, that was silly wasn't it, lol

i'v just checked and i do have the 2.1.5 rpm installed, but the 2.1.7 
source in my home folder which i have installed
i must have forgotten to uninstall the rpm first, DOH!

so i think i may be able to get away with just pointing..
in httpd.conf...
Alias /pipermail/ /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/
to /usr/lib/mailman/archives/public/

and yes the archives/public are symlinked to the archives/private folder.

should i just change were the pipermail alias points to in the httpd.conf??
or should i try to uninstall the rpm and reinstall the source??

thanks

Martin


From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar  6 03:23:18 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 18:23:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive not updating properly
In-Reply-To: <440B996A.5040602@camberwellcarrot.net>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603051823180765a2e8438f@msapiro>

Camberwell wrote:
>
>i'v just checked and i do have the 2.1.5 rpm installed, but the 2.1.7 
>source in my home folder which i have installed
>i must have forgotten to uninstall the rpm first, DOH!
>
>so i think i may be able to get away with just pointing..
>in httpd.conf...
>Alias /pipermail/ /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/
>to /usr/lib/mailman/archives/public/
>
>and yes the archives/public are symlinked to the archives/private folder.
>
>should i just change were the pipermail alias points to in the httpd.conf??
>or should i try to uninstall the rpm and reinstall the source??

You have several choices. I think the easiest is to just change the
httpd.conf, but you might also consider rerunning configure with
--with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman and then make install.

In any case, you now have split archives. You can put them back
together list by list by concatenating the two files
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox and
/usr/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox into one
in the current archive location and then running "bin/arch --wipe
listname" to rebuild the pipermail archive from the combined mbox.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar  6 03:26:02 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 18:26:02 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] MAIL FROM GioMBG > It's possible to modify
	thearchive?
In-Reply-To: <200603060216.01122.root@home.mbg.it>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603051826020765ca8a9bdf@msapiro>

<root at home.mbg.it> wrote:

>It's possible to modify the archive?
>and if is possible where I can get info about make it?


<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.003.htp>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar  6 03:30:19 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 18:30:19 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail from GioMBG > Where I can have info to
	have aVERY GOOD template like the mail archive template?
In-Reply-To: <200603060214.50205.root@home.mbg.it>
Message-ID: <PC174020060305183019024904eada0c@msapiro>

<root at home.mbg.it> wrote:

>This template it's VERY GOOD!
>Where I can get some info to make a template like this with searcher and ADS 
>by Google?
>http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/

mail-archive.com is a separate archiving service which is totally
external to Mailman. See <http://www.mail-archive.com/>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From camberwell at camberwellcarrot.net  Mon Mar  6 03:40:43 2006
From: camberwell at camberwellcarrot.net (Camberwell)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 02:40:43 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive not updating properly
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603051823180765a2e8438f@msapiro>
References: <PC1740200603051823180765a2e8438f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <440BA12B.7000607@camberwellcarrot.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

>You have several choices. I think the easiest is to just change the
>httpd.conf, but you might also consider rerunning configure with
>--with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman and then make install.
>
>In any case, you now have split archives. You can put them back
>together list by list by concatenating the two files
>/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox and
>/usr/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox into one
>in the current archive location and then running "bin/arch --wipe
>listname" to rebuild the pipermail archive from the combined mbox.
>  
>
Thanks alot for that, i'v changed the httpd.conf and the archives are 
visible and up to date on the web page now :)
and thanks for the instructions on joining the archives.

Much apreciated

Martin


From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Mar  6 10:35:19 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 18:35:19 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net> (Dave Crocker's message of
	"Fri, 03 Mar 2006 17:53:51 -0800")
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>
	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>
	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>
	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net> <p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>
	<44050590.60802@easent.net> <p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>
	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>
	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>
	<871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <873bhv531k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

>>>>> "Dave" == Dave Crocker <dhc2 at dcrocker.net> writes:

    >> You understand that and I understand that, but I don't think
    >> it's easy to grasp from the pages whose URLs you posted.  What
    >> _is_ easy to grasp is that bulk emailers who have been getting
    >> a certain level of QoS for free are now being asked to pay for
    >> it, and they're upset.  Stinks of "special interest" to high
    >> heaven.

    Dave> Let me see if I understand the model:

    Dave> AOL creates a specialized, rather expensive process that it
    Dave> provides for free, to ensure delivery of a class of mail.

[If you want to know why Brad asks if you're an "intentional shill for
the advertising industry," there you have it.  The purpose of the
"process" from the point of view of the AOL subscriber is to ensure
_non_-delivery of a class of mail.  I doubt most subscribers really
care whether they get their "opt-in" mailings from "specially selected
advertisers"---but those advertisers care, and care enough to pay!
Most public-service MLs, on the other hand, will not be able to pay.
Except those which are mailing solicitations for donations!

Who is being served here?  Advertisers, not AOL or mailing list
subscribers.]

    Dave> The operation of this mechanism is pure overhead for AOL.

True, but only because they don't dare charge their subscribers for
it.

    Dave> Worse, it is distinct to AOL.  To the extent any other
    Dave> receive-side ISP operates such a service, it is entirely
    Dave> independent of AOL. That is, anyone wanting on these special
    Dave> lists must to special things for each of these lists.

    Dave> So along comes a few companies who are trying to find ways
    Dave> to let receive-side ISPs outsource the job of assuring that
    Dave> trustable bulk mail is, in fact, trusted.  (That is, the
    Dave> receiver wants this stuff and these services are provding
    Dave> ways to assure that they get it.)

Note: trusted _by the ISP_.  The ISP should be a reliable
representative of their subscribers, or the whole scheme is
suspicious.  As a former AOL subscriber, I'm pretty sure that AOL
never had anything in mind but hanging on to the direct debit for as
long as possible.

    Dave> These companies offer mechanisms that will work across
    Dave> multiple receive-side services and they all all charge the
    Dave> sender for the special handling that is needed to bypass
    Dave> most or all of the receive-side filters. (Just to nit-pick,
    Dave> EWL membership does not bypass all filters, while a Goodmail
    Dave> token will, as I understand it.)

If a Goodmail token bypasses any user-defined filters, that's spam.
If AOL doesn't provide a way for users to define such filters, they're
aiding and abetting, no?  Ie, they will help the advertiser/Goodmail
to push things as close as possible to what the subscriber(s) consider
unacceptable.  In particular, they are likely to adopt a "voting
criterion" for "unwanted," or a "wanted until specifically refused"
criterion.  All in the name of maximizing information flow.

    Dave> So one of these services lands some strategic relationships

[Ie, attempts to restrict trade. :-)  That's all that "strategic
relationship" means, has ever meant, or can ever mean.  If it meant
something else, you'd call it by a more precise name: "customer-
supplier", "competitor", etc.]

    Dave> and makes a splash announcing them. Somehow, this
    Dave> value-added service is heralded as subversive,

Tut, tut.  I certainly wouldn't call this service "revolutionary",
although I wouldn't be surprised if AOL/Goodmail do!

    Dave> in spite of the fact that pretty much all other
    Dave> communication services have levels of service.

    Dave> I must be missing something, here.

Yes.  First, you may have missed the fact that "special interest"
above refers to "bulk emailers who have been getting best QoS for
free".

Second, the key point is that, up until "spam", where carriers provide
QoS to third parties, the cost to the third party of getting high
quality far exceeded the cost to the user of "not picking up the
phone."  Modern telecommunications, and especially the Internet,
changes that comparison; we can no longer assume the costs of ignoring
unwanted communication are negligible, and anything that guarantees
arrival of a transmission has the potential to impose such costs.

Third, the fact that AOL/Goodmail are certifying mail in bulk as an
exclusive relationship[1] rather than competitively offering various
ways to help users filter at the mailbox level means that they are
(more or less deliberately) setting up a situation where they can turn
the communication connection to a very large block of users in one
click of a GUI.  Stretching the point to make a point, under the
Sherman Act that's prima facie an illegal combination in restraint of
trade.[2]

Put it this way: what is wrong with a competitive solution where AOL
allows the _users_ to choose _one or more_ filtering service(s)?
Besides reducing revenue to Goodmail and AOL (and maybe raising
overhead a bit)?

A couple more points.  "Other" communications services that provide
levels of service often negotiate them with subscribers, not with
third parties.  "Other" communications services are often classified
as "common carriers", or outright nationalized.

I'm still not convinced Goodmail is evil, especially if the AOL
subscribers think they want it, but I do smell fish.


Footnotes: 
[1]  AFAIK, but I haven't checked carefully.

[2]  I repeat: don't try to sue them under any of the anti-trust acts,
it almost surely won't fly.

-- 
School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
University of Tsukuba                    Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
               Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
              ask what your business can "do for" free software.


From andrew at cnet.org  Mon Mar  6 21:17:47 2006
From: andrew at cnet.org (Andrew Steele)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 20:17:47 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman stopped passing messages and new lists
	don't appear
Message-ID: <440C98EB.5044.2ADB303@andrew.cnet.org>

We have experienced a suddne problem with our Mailman installation.  

All was well last Friday, but by today, Monday, I find the following 
symptoms:

1.  No messages sent to any list are distributed.

2.  New lists can be created from within the linux shell and appear to be 
correctly configured.

3.  New lists created in the shell do not appear in the admin or listinfo 
pages in a web browser.

Since was well previously I'm considering that the problem has arisen as 
a result of difficulties at our ISP.  However, they are proving 
unresponsive at this point so I'm wondering if anyone can suggest a 
course of action to diagnose the problem and then apply whatever solution 
necessary.

Thanks in advance...

Andrew Steele



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar  6 21:34:42 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 12:34:42 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman stopped passing messages and new
	listsdon't appear
In-Reply-To: <440C98EB.5044.2ADB303@andrew.cnet.org>
Message-ID: <PC174020060306123442045315edda8f@msapiro>

Andrew Steele wrote: 
>
>All was well last Friday, but by today, Monday, I find the following 
>symptoms:
>
>1.  No messages sent to any list are distributed.
>
>2.  New lists can be created from within the linux shell and appear to be 
>correctly configured.


Can you access their listinfo and admin pages directly?


>3.  New lists created in the shell do not appear in the admin or listinfo 
>pages in a web browser.


Are the lists 'advertised'? If so, and if their web pages can be
accessed directly, this is probably a virtual hosts issue. I.e., the
host portion of the list's web_page_url attribute doesn't match the
host portion of the URL you are using to access the admin or listinfo
overview pages.


>Since was well previously I'm considering that the problem has arisen as 
>a result of difficulties at our ISP.  However, they are proving 
>unresponsive at this point so I'm wondering if anyone can suggest a 
>course of action to diagnose the problem and then apply whatever solution 
>necessary.


Are these lists hosted at the ISP? Can you see Mailman's logs? Can you
do 'ps' to see if the qrunners are running?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dhc2 at dcrocker.net  Mon Mar  6 22:32:57 2006
From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 13:32:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Goodmail spells doom for mailing  lists?
In-Reply-To: <873bhv531k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <43F611AE.104@nerds.net>	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0602180810490.14620@westnet.com>	<43FE59DA.9050200@dcrocker.net>	<012f01c638fb$6f21a320$2c5a56d8@sallyz7dwc2ci1>	<43FF1374.9010806@nerds.net>
	<p06200701c02a83e4fe6f@[10.0.0.182]>	<44050590.60802@easent.net>
	<p06200713c02b2e01dd61@[10.0.1.211]>	<p06200723c02bf94a8271@[10.0.1.211]>	<87ek1l9y7k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<p06200726c02c79dba4ba@[10.0.1.211]>	<871wxk85h4.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<4408F32F.9070306@dcrocker.net>
	<873bhv531k.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <440CAA89.3090809@dcrocker.net>

Stephen,

>     Dave> AOL creates a specialized, rather expensive process that it
>     Dave> provides for free, to ensure delivery of a class of mail.
> 
> [If you want to know why Brad asks if you're an "intentional shill for
> the advertising industry," there you have it.  The purpose of the
> "process" from the point of view of the AOL subscriber is to ensure
> _non_-delivery of a class of mail.  

Do you expect your postal service to screen your mail, or your phone company to
screen your calls?

In other words, this demand that we place on the receive-side email service is 
really quite extraordinary.  That does not make it unreasonable, but it does 
mean we need to be careful about what we expect and how it is valued (and paid for.)

Given the arms-race nature of the filtering world, the cost of doing it well
increases without bound.  That's not such a good business model, when it
represents pure overhead, rather than resulting in direct revenue.  (I am 
assuming that serious discussion about these issues views it as acceptable for a 
business to make a profit.)

<lecture>
More generally, a serious challenge in these kinds of discussions is the failure 
to see it as requiring a 'negotiation' among the participants, including 
authors, recipients, and all the operators.  Each has different goals and 
constraints, and some of the constraints compete with each other.

So we need to approach the topic with an understanding that there are no perfect 
solutions.

Equally, every set of participants has some good actors and some bad actors. Not
everyone who sends bulk mail is doing a bad thing.  Not everyone who complains
about mail they receive is doing so carefully and in good faith.

So this negotiation towards an acceptable-but-imperfect solution must worry
about misbehaviors from any direction.

And the third challenge is that this all involves a bit of very large-scale,
very important infrastructure operation.  No one -- and I mean no one -- knows 
how to do that perfectly. The absolute rule when making any change to a social 
system -- and email definitely is one -- is that will have unintended 
consequences, most of which will be undesirable.
</lecture>


What we have today is an undifferentiated mass of email, with a very poor signal
to noise ratio.  What the services that focus on good reputation are trying to 
do is to identify a class of senders who will have a very *good* signal to noise 
ratio, and thereby handle this safer set of mail in a way that gives better 
service, namely better delivery assurances.

Once we agree that this is a reasonable goal, then we are debating methodology.

My own view is that any new methodology for a difficult problem is an 
experiment. Some experiments look more plausible than others, but ultimately, 
none of them has a certain outcome.

The only thing that is important is to make sure that it is possible to conduct 
multiple experiments and that the evaluation of them can be done by the market.

The hyperbole and polarization, present in the current public environment, makes 
sure that serious market evaluation is not possible.


> I doubt most subscribers really
> care whether they get their "opt-in" mailings from "specially selected
> advertisers"---but those advertisers care, and care enough to pay!

This represents a good example of missing the point.  The better signal-to-noise 
efforts are not focusing on delivering "advertising" but on servicing existing 
customer relationships.  The pristine example of this is transaction mail -- and 
that has nothing to do with advertising.

Of course, companies with whom one does transactions also tend to send 
advertising, but there is a world of difference between getting that sort of 
bulk mail -- that I might not want -- from getting the masses of fraudulent and 
deceptive mail from people with whom I have no relationship at all.

At least when it is a company with which I have a history, there is a reasonable 
chance of fixing the problem.  Hence, debates about how it gets fixed are a 
matter of quibbling, in comparison to the larger and strategic issues of 
controlling spam from the really bad actors.


> Most public-service MLs, on the other hand, will not be able to pay.

There are two different lines of response to this:

1. Of course we all want to be nicer to organizations that have an altruistic 
quality about them.  Unfortunately, we need to be careful about defining this 
special class and defining their special benefits, lest we wind up giving 
benefits to people and activities that are not really altruistic.

2. These altruistic activities pay for other utilities just like the rest of us. 
  Why must they be given special pricing (e.g., free service) in this case?

These are competing points.  So, once again, we are faced with inherent 
difficulty in any effort to resolve them.

Again, it might give one a nicely warm feeling to claim that things are much 
simpler than I am describing and that they is easy to resolve, but that style of 
thinking, for the world of social behavior, is pure folly.


> Except those which are mailing solicitations for donations!

The list of exceptions is far, far longer.

And having a list of exceptions then creates a very real problem with compliance 
and enforcement.


> Who is being served here?  Advertisers, not AOL or mailing list
> subscribers.]

Except when it is not a matter of "advertising".


>     Dave> So along comes a few companies who are trying to find ways
>     Dave> to let receive-side ISPs outsource the job of assuring that
>     Dave> trustable bulk mail is, in fact, trusted.  (That is, the
>     Dave> receiver wants this stuff and these services are provding
>     Dave> ways to assure that they get it.)
> 
> Note: trusted _by the ISP_.  The ISP should be a reliable
> representative of their subscribers, or the whole scheme is
> suspicious. 

A long time ago, I was taught that all of a receive-side provider's actions 
about spam are driven entirely by their customers' complaints.

It is difficult to get more representative than that.


> If a Goodmail token bypasses any user-defined filters, that's spam.

I recall seeing that it bypasses the AOL filters.

I do not recall seeing that it bypasses a user's filters.


> If AOL doesn't provide a way for users to define such filters, they're
> aiding and abetting, no?

I see a non-sequitor here but I am not sure I can describe it well.

1. Providing user controls for filtering is a nice feature, but not 
automatically required of an email operator.  But, yes, it's great when they do. 
At any rate, declaring that the absence of such filters is aiding and abetting 
makes no sense, especially when there is no precise statement of what is being 
aided and abetted.

2. This presumes that if user filters exist, they are are being bypassed.

   Ie, they will help the advertiser/Goodmail
> to push things as close as possible to what the subscriber(s) consider
> unacceptable. 

All of the good-actor reputation services are focused on getting mail that the 
user wants delivered.  As with any group of people, I'm sure that some of these 
services will have higher integrity than others, but their stated goal is the 
delivery of *mail wanted by the recipient*.

Hence, your premise appears to be entirely off the mark.


  In particular, they are likely to adopt a "voting
> criterion" for "unwanted," or a "wanted until specifically refused"
> criterion.  All in the name of maximizing information flow.

Most of the rep services do claim that complaint rate is the ultimate king.  I 
assume that is what you mean by voting.  But that is why I distinguish rules for 
gaining membership with the rep service, versus on-going monitoring.

Rules for gaining membership need to be visible, clear and have reasonable 
community support.  But this presumes reasoned community discussion, rather than 
the current tone of paranoia, misrepresentation and unwarranted certitude.


>     Dave> So one of these services lands some strategic relationships
> 
> [Ie, attempts to restrict trade. :-)  That's all that "strategic
> relationship" means, has ever meant, or can ever mean.

"restricts trade" is a rather specific term of art.  You appear to be applying 
it far beyond its usual meaning.

You buy your food from a particular store, rather than from all the stores that 
sell food.  By your logic, you are restricting trade.


   If it meant
> something else, you'd call it by a more precise name: "customer-
> supplier", "competitor", etc.]

No.  I'm happy to use these terms, too.  I chose the term "strategic" because 
the relationship is necessarily deep and long-term.


>     Dave> and makes a splash announcing them. Somehow, this
>     Dave> value-added service is heralded as subversive,
> 
> Tut, tut.  I certainly wouldn't call this service "revolutionary",
> although I wouldn't be surprised if AOL/Goodmail do!

Where did I say it was revolutionary?

(Actually, I've been trying to be pretty careful to make comments about this 
class of service, rather than about any particular company seeking to provide 
it. Further, I've been trying to talk in terms of what it takes to provide, its 
intended benefits, and other analytic points, rather than use any marketing hype 
about it.)


>     Dave> in spite of the fact that pretty much all other
>     Dave> communication services have levels of service.
> 
>     Dave> I must be missing something, here.
> 
> Yes.  First, you may have missed the fact that "special interest"
> above refers to "bulk emailers who have been getting best QoS for
> free".

Huh?  What bulk emailers have been getting *best* qos for free?


> Second, the key point is that, up until "spam", where carriers provide
> QoS to third parties,

I simply do not understand what you mean by "where carriers provide QoS to third 
parties" but I'm pretty sure I don't agree with it.


> Third, the fact that AOL/Goodmail are certifying mail in bulk as an
> exclusive relationship[1] rather than competitively offering various
> ways to help users filter at the mailbox level means that they are

News flash:  companies have limited resources.

For the benefit of competition, yes, it is important to have multiple players. 
But it is not unusual to have a company start with one.  (I'm not commenting on 
whether I think the one they chose is the better or worse one.)

In any event, we've been overtaken by events, since AOL ha snow announced that 
it will add some other rep services.


> (more or less deliberately) setting up a situation where they can turn
> the communication connection to a very large block of users in one
> click of a GUI.  Stretching the point to make a point, under the
> Sherman Act that's prima facie an illegal combination in restraint of
> trade.[2]

1. I don't know what "turn the communication connection to a very large block of 
users" means.

2. You've jumped to a legal assessment that seems to be missing both lots of 
steps and lots of justification.  Is this really a good forum, and are we really 
the right people, to attempt legal assessments of something like anti-trust?


> Put it this way: what is wrong with a competitive solution where AOL
> allows the _users_ to choose _one or more_ filtering service(s)?
> Besides reducing revenue to Goodmail and AOL (and maybe raising
> overhead a bit)?

1.  It's probably worth trying to design the details of such a capability, to 
make sure that path is feasible and scales well, before requiring it.

2. There is a difference between what is desired for the longer-term and what is 
possible in the near-term.  Any company that tries to do everything at once 
usually winds up doing nothing.  (Analogy:  Do you know what happens when you 
try to juggle too many balls at the same time?  You do not drop just one.)


> A couple more points.  "Other" communications services that provide
> levels of service often negotiate them with subscribers, not with
> third parties.  

Huh?  You mean the service that hosts dcrocker.net consulted me before 
contracting with their co-location service?  I don't think so.

And when is the last time a telephone company negotiated levels of service it 
would offer with subscribers? (Hint: "never".)


"Other" communications services are often classified
> as "common carriers", or outright nationalized.

and, more recently, privatized and not regulated.  these things vary over time.

d/
-- 

Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
<http://bbiw.net>


From beckert at ecos.de  Mon Mar  6 22:53:20 2006
From: beckert at ecos.de (Axel Beckert - ecos gmbh)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 22:53:20 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] show_qfiles error
Message-ID: <20060306215320.GF7804@ecos.de>

Hi!

I know, this reply comes about one year too late ;-) but nevertheless,
here's the solution (and a bug report):

> When I try to view the qfiles in my in out or retry directories I get an 
> error like the following:
> 
> /usr/local/mailman/bin/show_qfiles qfiles/in/*.pck
> ====================>  qfiles/in/1109557589.84778+7a750d59fd76a54b51168a615ef23e74f4088be9.pck
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/show_qfiles", line 74, in ?
>     main()
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/show_qfiles", line 67, in main
>     sys.stdout.write(msg.as_string())
> AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'as_string'

Edit show_qfiles, remove the ".as_string()" after "msg" just leaving
the line

  sys.stdout.write(msg)

Patch:

--- show_qfiles-2.1.7.orig      2006-03-06 22:38:46.000000000 +0100
+++ show_qfiles-2.1.7   2006-03-06 22:40:27.000000000 +0100
@@ -64,7 +64,7 @@
         fp = open(filename)
         if filename.endswith(".pck"):
             msg = load(fp)
-            sys.stdout.write(msg.as_string())
+            sys.stdout.write(msg)
         else:
             sys.stdout.write(fp.read())
 

This bug is still in Mailman 2.1.7. I initially had this problem with
Mailman 2.1.5 on SuSE Linux 9.3 with Python 2.4, but also could
reproduce it with 2.1.7 on SuSE Linux 10.0 with Python 2.4.1.

Filed a bug report:
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=1444447&group_id=103&atid=100103

Anyone can explain, why a string should be converted to a string?

            Kind regards, Axel Beckert
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------
Axel Beckert      ecos electronic communication services gmbh
it security solutions * web applications with apache and perl

Mail:       Tulpenstrasse 5       D-55276 Dienheim near Mainz
E-Mail:     beckert at ecos.de       Voice:     +49 6133 939-220
WWW:        http://www.ecos.de/   Fax:       +49 6133 939-333
-------------------------------------------------------------

 
** Virus checked by BB-5000 Mailfilter ** 



From larsenj at sosstaffing.com  Mon Mar  6 23:23:36 2006
From: larsenj at sosstaffing.com (Jonathan Larsen)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 15:23:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam assassin with mailman
Message-ID: <002901c6416c$9cdc6240$8c03310a@hcwan.net>

The issue we're having is that Mail comes in through our mail server.
Shoots to Mailman.  Mailman then finds the list, sends the mail back to the
mail server and only then does the mail get hit by spam assassin.  If the
email was sent as a blacklisted spam, once it hits mailman it doesn't appear
that way to spam assassin anymore because it is seeing it come from mailman
and things it's okay thus sending it out.  

 

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to correct this problem?

I showed my systems admin the spam assassin integration into mailman
instructions but he's hesitant on it because the instructions I found
haven't been touched since 2003.  im only human so maybe I didn't find the
most recent instructions.

 

Any and all help is appreciated.  Thanks guys/gals

 

"If i was a rabbit, i would ROLL... ROLL!!!!!"

                                    -Kompressor

 

Jonathan Larsen

The Awesome I.S. Dept

Questions? mail us  <mailto:pc at sosstaffing.com> mailto:pc at sosstaffing.com

Call us 801.257.5754

Fax us 801.366.5702

 



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar  6 23:51:24 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 14:51:24 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] show_qfiles error
In-Reply-To: <20060306215320.GF7804@ecos.de>
Message-ID: <PC174020060306145124017175069ba3@msapiro>

Axel Beckert - ecos gmbh wrote:
>
>> When I try to view the qfiles in my in out or retry directories I get an 
>> error like the following:
>> 
>> /usr/local/mailman/bin/show_qfiles qfiles/in/*.pck
>> ====================>  qfiles/in/1109557589.84778+7a750d59fd76a54b51168a615ef23e74f4088be9.pck
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/show_qfiles", line 74, in ?
>>     main()
>>   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/show_qfiles", line 67, in main
>>     sys.stdout.write(msg.as_string())
>> AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'as_string'
>
>Edit show_qfiles, remove the ".as_string()" after "msg" just leaving
>the line
>
>  sys.stdout.write(msg)
<snip>
>
>This bug is still in Mailman 2.1.7. I initially had this problem with
>Mailman 2.1.5 on SuSE Linux 9.3 with Python 2.4, but also could
>reproduce it with 2.1.7 on SuSE Linux 10.0 with Python 2.4.1.
>
>Filed a bug report:
>https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=1444447&group_id=103&atid=100103
>
>Anyone can explain, why a string should be converted to a string?


It's more complicated than that. I don't know why you had a problem
originally with the out or retry queues, and I suspect that your
patched show_qfiles may have problems with them.

The issue, is that in the entry in the in queue, the msg is usually the
text of the incoming email, but elsewhere, the msg is a
Mailman.Message.Message object.

So, yes msg.as_string() is usually wrong for entries from the in queue,
but not elsewhere. I think a more appropriate patch is something like

@@ -64,7 +64,11 @@
         fp = open(filename)
         if filename.endswith(".pck"):
             msg = load(fp)
-            sys.stdout.write(msg.as_string())
+            data = load(fp)
+            if data.get('_parsemsg'):
+                sys.stdout.write(msg)
+            else:
+                sys.stdout.write(msg.as_string())
         else:
             sys.stdout.write(fp.read())

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From ler at lerctr.org  Mon Mar  6 23:53:46 2006
From: ler at lerctr.org (Larry Rosenman)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 16:53:46 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam assassin with mailman
In-Reply-To: <002901c6416c$9cdc6240$8c03310a@hcwan.net>
Message-ID: <041001c64170$d47c0d00$0a0a0a0a@aus.pervasive.com>

Jonathan Larsen wrote:
> The issue we're having is that Mail comes in through our mail server.
> Shoots to Mailman.  Mailman then finds the list, sends the mail back
> to the 
> mail server and only then does the mail get hit by spam assassin.  If
> the 
> email was sent as a blacklisted spam, once it hits mailman it doesn't
> appear 
> that way to spam assassin anymore because it is seeing it come from
> mailman 
> and things it's okay thus sending it out.
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions on how to correct this problem?
> 
> I showed my systems admin the spam assassin integration into mailman
> instructions but he's hesitant on it because the instructions I found
> haven't been touched since 2003.  im only human so maybe I didn't
> find the 
> most recent instructions.
> 
http://www.jamesh.id.au/articles/mailman-spamassassin/

Yes, it's old, but works just fine with current SA and MailMan.  I use it on

ALL my sites, including some high profile ones.

LER
-- 
Larry Rosenman                     http://www.lerctr.org/~ler
Phone: +1 512-248-2683                 E-Mail: ler at lerctr.org
US Mail: 430 Valona Loop, Round Rock, TX 78681-3893



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar  6 23:55:36 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 14:55:36 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam assassin with mailman
In-Reply-To: <002901c6416c$9cdc6240$8c03310a@hcwan.net>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030614553605460c5916a6@msapiro>

Jonathan Larsen wrote:

>The issue we're having is that Mail comes in through our mail server.
>Shoots to Mailman.  Mailman then finds the list, sends the mail back to the
>mail server and only then does the mail get hit by spam assassin.

Why is your MTA doing spam detection on outgoing mail and not on
incoming mail? This seems exactly backwards to me.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From larsenj at sosstaffing.com  Mon Mar  6 23:57:55 2006
From: larsenj at sosstaffing.com (Jonathan Larsen)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 15:57:55 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam assassin with mailman
In-Reply-To: <041001c64170$d47c0d00$0a0a0a0a@aus.pervasive.com>
Message-ID: <003101c64171$67fd6f10$8c03310a@hcwan.net>

Besides the integration.  Is there another way to solve this problem?

-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Rosenman [mailto:ler at lerctr.org] 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 3:54 PM
To: 'Jonathan Larsen'; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: RE: [Mailman-Users] Spam assassin with mailman

Jonathan Larsen wrote:
> The issue we're having is that Mail comes in through our mail server.
> Shoots to Mailman.  Mailman then finds the list, sends the mail back
> to the 
> mail server and only then does the mail get hit by spam assassin.  If
> the 
> email was sent as a blacklisted spam, once it hits mailman it doesn't
> appear 
> that way to spam assassin anymore because it is seeing it come from
> mailman 
> and things it's okay thus sending it out.
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions on how to correct this problem?
> 
> I showed my systems admin the spam assassin integration into mailman
> instructions but he's hesitant on it because the instructions I found
> haven't been touched since 2003.  im only human so maybe I didn't
> find the 
> most recent instructions.
> 
http://www.jamesh.id.au/articles/mailman-spamassassin/

Yes, it's old, but works just fine with current SA and MailMan.  I use it on

ALL my sites, including some high profile ones.

LER
-- 
Larry Rosenman                     http://www.lerctr.org/~ler
Phone: +1 512-248-2683                 E-Mail: ler at lerctr.org
US Mail: 430 Valona Loop, Round Rock, TX 78681-3893



From ler at lerctr.org  Tue Mar  7 00:01:40 2006
From: ler at lerctr.org (Larry Rosenman)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 17:01:40 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam assassin with mailman
In-Reply-To: <003101c64171$67fd6f10$8c03310a@hcwan.net>
Message-ID: <043e01c64171$ee27bf50$0a0a0a0a@aus.pervasive.com>

Jonathan Larsen wrote:
> Besides the integration.  Is there another way to solve this problem?
> 
SpamAssassin scan the incoming mail before Mailman gets it's grubby paws on
it.

I actually do both.

LER


-- 
Larry Rosenman                     http://www.lerctr.org/~ler
Phone: +1 512-248-2683                 E-Mail: ler at lerctr.org
US Mail: 430 Valona Loop, Round Rock, TX 78681-3893



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Mar  7 01:37:50 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 01:37:50 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam assassin with mailman
In-Reply-To: <003101c64171$67fd6f10$8c03310a@hcwan.net>
References: <003101c64171$67fd6f10$8c03310a@hcwan.net>
Message-ID: <p06200759c03286467e3c@[10.0.1.211]>

At 3:57 PM -0700 2006-03-06, Jonathan Larsen wrote:

>  Besides the integration.  Is there another way to solve this problem?

	Integrate it into the MTA.  See FAQ 6.12 for one example.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From elvisfern at gmail.com  Tue Mar  7 01:50:12 2006
From: elvisfern at gmail.com (Elvis Fernandes)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 16:50:12 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Integrating Namazu with Mailman
Message-ID: <5b1c0dc50603061650m5ba7bf0cxb7a6925e5464be3f@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I am trying to integrate the namazu search with mailman archives.

I am able to get namzu list out the messages containg the search string.
But, when I click on the message, it just come back with the error:

Internal Server Error

The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable
to complete your request.

Please contact the server administrator,  and inform them of the time the
error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the
error.

More information about this error may be available in the server error log.

Additionally, a 500 Internal Server Error error was encountered while trying
to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

On checking the apache/error_log, I see the following message that has some
"(8)Exec format error:"

[Mon Mar 06 16:40:09 2006] [error] [client 143.103.41.10] File does not
exist: /disk1/mailman/favicon.ico
[Mon Mar 06 16:40:10 2006] [error] [client 143.103.41.10] (8)Exec format
error: exec of
'/disk1/mailman/cgi-bin/archives/private/sysadmin/2006-January/000161.html'
failed, referer:
http://utc80/mailman/Sysadmin/namazu.cgi?query=james&submit=Search%21&max=20&result=normal&sort=score
[Mon Mar 06 16:40:10 2006] [error] [client 143.103.41.10] Premature end of
script headers: 000161.html, referer:
http://utc80/mailman/Sysadmin/namazu.cgi?query=james&submit=Search%21&max=20&result=normal&sort=score
[Mon Mar 06 16:40:11 2006] [error] [client 143.103.41.10] File does not
exist: /disk1/mailman/favicon.ico


Has anyone successfully accomplised mailman+namazu+apache integration?
BTW, I went with the referernce document at :

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2004-June/037580.html

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks
Elvis Fernandes

*
***


From tomnaugh at gmail.com  Tue Mar  7 01:57:20 2006
From: tomnaugh at gmail.com (Tom Kavanaugh)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 16:57:20 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Redirect all -bounce emails
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200602231814280375dea2f8d3@msapiro>
References: <98a90c220602231620m6800c482xaa27fbdf7507b944@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1740200602231814280375dea2f8d3@msapiro>
Message-ID: <98a90c220603061657t52a1a4a2uf6d12abaa284e220@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Mark,

> My best guess here is that unix_sysadmin-bounces at name.com is a member
of the mailman at name.com list.

Yes, that was correct. And hence the mails were getting into a bounce loop.
I have removed unix_sysadmin-bounces at name.com from mailman at name.com.

I was soooo stupid to do it in the first place, but this was a great
learning for me.
All is good now.

Thanks
Tom



On 2/23/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
>
> Tom Kavanaugh wrote:
> >
> >I modified the Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py per you suggestions.
> >The unix_sysadmin-bounce emails now get redirected to mailman at name.com
> >That is the good part.
> >
> >But what is happening now is that the mailman server keeps spitting out
> >these emails to the mailman mail list. Every few minutes I am bomarded
> with
> >these emails from the mailman mail list. The relevant contents are:
>
>
> You asked how to redirect bounces to the mailman at name.com address (the
> posting address for the site list) and that's what's happening.
>
>
> >Reporting-MTA: dns; utc80.name.com
> >Received-From-MTA: DNS; localhost
> >Arrival-Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:13:39 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >Final-Recipient: RFC822; unix_sysadmin-bounces at name.com
> ><unix_sysadmin-bounces at am.necel.com>
> >Action: failed
> >Status: 5.1.1
> >Remote-MTA: DNS; mailhost.name.com
> >Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.1.1 <unix_sysadmin-bounces at name.com>
> ><unix_sysadmin-bounces at am.necel.com>... User
> >=09unknown
> >Last-Attempt-Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:13:39 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >
> >
> >Seems that the mailman server (utc80) is re-trying to send to
> >unix_sysadmin-bounces at name.com, although it knows that this is an unknown
> >user.
>
>
> Mailman doesn't know anything about what addresses are or are not
> deliverable, and since you have effectively disabled automatic bounce
> processing, it can never find out.
>
> My best guess here is that unix_sysadmin-bounces at name.com is a member
> of the mailman at name.com list. If that's not it, I don't know what is.
> Does that notice contain a copy of the original message? if so, what
> is it? Or does it keep growing as the same bounce keeps rebouncing?
>
> This is an interesting issue. Every message from the mailman at name.com
> list had better be deliverable or you will get a bounce loop.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>


From larsenj at sosstaffing.com  Tue Mar  7 01:58:16 2006
From: larsenj at sosstaffing.com (Jonathan Larsen)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 17:58:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam assassin with mailman
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006030614553605460c5916a6@msapiro>
Message-ID: <003201c64182$37db9850$8c03310a@hcwan.net>

It does do it on incoming mail but only after it's went to mailman and then
is going back to the MTA for final delivery. So basically right before it
hits the user.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net] 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 3:56 PM
To: Jonathan Larsen; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Spam assassin with mailman

Jonathan Larsen wrote:

>The issue we're having is that Mail comes in through our mail server.
>Shoots to Mailman.  Mailman then finds the list, sends the mail back to the
>mail server and only then does the mail get hit by spam assassin.

Why is your MTA doing spam detection on outgoing mail and not on
incoming mail? This seems exactly backwards to me.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar  7 02:06:07 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 17:06:07 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam assassin with mailman
In-Reply-To: <003201c64182$37db9850$8c03310a@hcwan.net>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603061706070031311196a6@msapiro>

Jonathan Larsen wrote:

>It does do it on incoming mail but only after it's went to mailman and then
>is going back to the MTA for final delivery. So basically right before it
>hits the user.

I don't want to argue the semantics with you, but whatever you want to
call it, the MTA should be applying the it's spam filtering before the
mail is given to Mailman.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From scott at fyrenice.com  Mon Mar  6 17:25:15 2006
From: scott at fyrenice.com (Dr. Scott S. Jones)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 09:25:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Posting with sending ID concealed
In-Reply-To: <c57a6bed0603051552y2e87f7b6l1a7b94a4b4082c75@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c57a6bed0603051552y2e87f7b6l1a7b94a4b4082c75@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060306162515.GA26315@xmission.com>

I operate a mailing list to issues updates and information to my patients.
The list is fully moderated, disallowing anyone to post without review. 

Occasionally, I get some patients who respond back to something I send, and
I want to post their response, but I'd like to have it post with the
identity of the original poster concealed. 

Is this possible? 

Dr. Jones



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar  7 03:48:26 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 18:48:26 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Posting with sending ID concealed
In-Reply-To: <20060306162515.GA26315@xmission.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030618482606564d64452a@msapiro>

Dr. Scott S. Jones wrote:

>I operate a mailing list to issues updates and information to my patients.
>The list is fully moderated, disallowing anyone to post without review. 
>
>Occasionally, I get some patients who respond back to something I send, and
>I want to post their response, but I'd like to have it post with the
>identity of the original poster concealed. 
>
>Is this possible? 


There are at least two ways to do this. If you make the list anonymous,
(anonymous_list = Yes on the General Options page) you can approve the
post (assuming it was held for approval) and information identifying
the user in message headers will be removed, and the From: will be
from the list and not the user. This won't remove any identifying
material such as a signature from the body of the message however.

Alternatively, you can just forward the reply back to the list, editing
it as necessary to remove any identifying information. This may be
preferable for other reasons as you can also add your own note as to
why you think the information in the reply is of interest and remove
anything that might not be relevant.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Mar  7 03:43:12 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 03:43:12 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam assassin with mailman
In-Reply-To: <003201c64182$37db9850$8c03310a@hcwan.net>
References: <003201c64182$37db9850$8c03310a@hcwan.net>
Message-ID: <p0620075bc032a3815836@[10.0.1.211]>

At 5:58 PM -0700 2006-03-06, Jonathan Larsen wrote:

>  It does do it on incoming mail but only after it's went to mailman and then
>  is going back to the MTA for final delivery. So basically right before it
>  hits the user.

	Which is absolutely bass-ackwards.  Do the check in the MTA 
before you receive the message the first time, then configure a 
second MTA where you can dump stuff for outgoing traffic which 
doesn't waste your time by re-doing the same check all over again.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar  7 04:03:57 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 19:03:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Integrating Namazu with Mailman
In-Reply-To: <5b1c0dc50603061650m5ba7bf0cxb7a6925e5464be3f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC174020060306190357000000213899@msapiro>

Elvis Fernandes wrote:
>
>On checking the apache/error_log, I see the following message that has some
>"(8)Exec format error:"
>
>[Mon Mar 06 16:40:09 2006] [error] [client 143.103.41.10] File does not
>exist: /disk1/mailman/favicon.ico

Above is not a problem.
>[Mon Mar 06 16:40:10 2006] [error] [client 143.103.41.10] (8)Exec format
>error: exec of
>'/disk1/mailman/cgi-bin/archives/private/sysadmin/2006-January/000161.html'
>failed, referer:
>http://utc80/mailman/Sysadmin/namazu.cgi?query=james&submit=Search%21&max=20&result=normal&sort=score


This is definitely a problem. It appears that the namazu.cgi script is
trying to redirect the query to something like
http://utc80/mailman/archives/private/sysadmin/2006-January/000161.html
which should really be
http://utc80/mailman/private/sysadmin/2006-January/000161.html - it
looks like you may have configured a path where you should have
configured a URL.


>[Mon Mar 06 16:40:10 2006] [error] [client 143.103.41.10] Premature end of
>script headers: 000161.html, referer:
>http://utc80/mailman/Sysadmin/namazu.cgi?query=james&submit=Search%21&max=20&result=normal&sort=score


This is probably a consequence of the above error.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jab at muskokatech.ca  Tue Mar  7 08:55:40 2006
From: jab at muskokatech.ca (Jeremy Baker)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 02:55:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] hostname problem
Message-ID: <200603070255.41243.jab@muskokatech.ca>

I have just installed mailman on my postfix mailserver called 
white.domain.tld.  My webserver is a separate server called www.domain.tld.  
Email for the domain is of the form user at domain.tld.  I used the configure 
options --with-mailhost=domain.tld and --with-urlhost=www.domain.tld.  My 
Defaults.py has the following entries:


DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'domain.tld'
DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'www.domain.tld'
DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'

I don't have any entries in the mm_cfg.py file.

white.domain.tld is running apache, and I access it through www.domain.tld by 
putting the following entries in the apache config of www.domain.tld

	ProxyPass /mailman http://white.domain.tld/mailman
	ProxyPassReverse /mailman http://white.domain.tld/mailman
	ProxyPass /pipermail http://white.domain.tld/pipermail
	ProxyPassReverse /pipermail http://white.domain.tld/pipermail

Both servers live behind a nat firewall, and only the www.domain.tld name is 
publicly accessible.

Here's the problem.  The pages served up by white.domain.tld always say 
white.domain.tld at the top, and all the urls have white.domain.tld in them 
instead of www.domain.tld.  Why is it ignoring the configuration directive 
DEFAULT_URL_HOST?  


Jeremy Baker <jab at muskokatech.ca>
GnuPGP fingerprint =
EE66 AC49 E008 E09A 7A2A  0195 50EF 580B EDBB 95B6


From atann at gmx.net  Tue Mar  7 11:53:35 2006
From: atann at gmx.net (Andre Tann)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 11:53:35 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce processing doesn't work
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603031136080765ff390bc5@msapiro>
References: <PC1740200603031136080765ff390bc5@msapiro>
Message-ID: <200603071153.36298@inter.netz>

Hello Mark.

Mark Sapiro, Freitag, 3. M?rz 2006 20:36: 

> >> VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES =3D Yes
> >>
> >> in mm_cfg.py to enhance bounce recognition.
> >
> >I have already thought about this. But I was not sure if this
> > might be a problem to my postfix MTA. I have no idea if my
> > postfix can handle these address types.
>
> Just have an outside mail sent to an inside address of the form
> user+xxx=abc.def at example.com and see if it arrives.

I now have set up VERP. As my mailman-server is connected to the 
real mx via a fetchmail/procmail link, it was a little bit hand 
work to do to bring up VERP to work.

fetchmail fetches all the mailman mails via a catchall account, and 
procmail does the filtering.
Now I have modified my procmail rule set, which means VERP works, 
and all the bounce mails are recognized.

Thanks a lot for your help!

Greetings from Munich sinking in snow

-- 
Andre Tann



From kim at pcb.co.za  Tue Mar  7 14:19:41 2006
From: kim at pcb.co.za (Kim Moodley)
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 15:19:41 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need help on new mailing list
Message-ID: <s40da49d.047@hal.pcb.co.za>

How do I start creating a mailing list?

I have a mailing list and is it possible to duplicate the mailing list
and put somebody else as the administrator of the duplicated mailing
list.

Kind Regards


Kim Moodley

PCB Technologies (Pty) Ltd
Phone:  +27 (11) 880-9999
Fax:       +27 (11) 880-2555
E-Mail:   kim at pcb.co.za 
Web  :   http://www.pcb.co.za



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Tue Mar  7 15:29:40 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 08:29:40 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] hostname problem
In-Reply-To: <200603070255.41243.jab@muskokatech.ca>
References: <200603070255.41243.jab@muskokatech.ca>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603070629h4937e771xa0153bd45b2c0db3@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/7/06, Jeremy Baker <jab at muskokatech.ca> wrote:
> Defaults.py has the following entries:
>
snip
>
> I don't have any entries in the mm_cfg.py file.
I don't think this is causing your problem, but all site-specific
(e.g., 'your') configuration directives should go in mm_cfg.py, not
Defaults.py.

- Patrick Bogen


From erhan at polaris.com.tr  Tue Mar  7 16:27:09 2006
From: erhan at polaris.com.tr (erhans)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 07:27:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Removing original mail as attachment
Message-ID: <3282629.post@talk.nabble.com>


Hi all,

When I send an e-mail (like who,lists etc.) command to Mailman 2.1.2 to
mylist-request at foo.bar.com , it attaches my original mail in addition to the
response to my command. 
Is there a way to say Mailman not to attach my original mail.

Thanks in advance...
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Removing-original-mail-as-attachment-t1240302.html#a3282629
Sent from the Mailman - Users forum at Nabble.com.



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar  7 18:13:50 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 09:13:50 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] hostname problem
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00603070629h4937e771xa0153bd45b2c0db3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603070913500203a3cbe81d@msapiro>

Patrick Bogen wrote:

>On 3/7/06, Jeremy Baker <jab at muskokatech.ca> wrote:
>> Defaults.py has the following entries:
>>
>snip
>>
>> I don't have any entries in the mm_cfg.py file.
>I don't think this is causing your problem, but all site-specific
>(e.g., 'your') configuration directives should go in mm_cfg.py, not
>Defaults.py.

The Defaults.py entries that Jeremy quoted were placed in Defaults.py
by configure as they should be. i.e. if you provide the proper options
to configure, you don't need to override DEFAULT_*_HOST in mm_cfg.py.

To solve the problem in the OP, put

VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW = Off

in mm_cfg.py.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From matt at mail.netera.ca  Tue Mar  7 18:13:58 2006
From: matt at mail.netera.ca (Matthew Clarkson)
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 10:13:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Building an announce list
Message-ID: <440DBF56.5030702@mail.netera.ca>

We are currently transitioning from majordomo to mailman.  Anyways, we 
create announce lists in majordomo by a custom script which will take 
all the lists and concatenate them into one file, order them by 
alphabetical order, and then run unique to remove duplicates.
I was wondering if there is anyway that mailman can do something similar 
by a built in function (I can't find one).  If not, is there any way 
that I can by command line, extract all the address' associated with a 
list and then run our same script on it, and then inject the address' 
into another list (the announce list in this case)?

Thanks in advance
--
Matthew Clarkson


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar  7 18:55:07 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 09:55:07 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Building an announce list
In-Reply-To: <440DBF56.5030702@mail.netera.ca>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603070955070796eb92f483@msapiro>

Matthew Clarkson wrote:

>We are currently transitioning from majordomo to mailman.  Anyways, we 
>create announce lists in majordomo by a custom script which will take 
>all the lists and concatenate them into one file, order them by 
>alphabetical order, and then run unique to remove duplicates.
>I was wondering if there is anyway that mailman can do something similar 
>by a built in function (I can't find one).  If not, is there any way 
>that I can by command line, extract all the address' associated with a 
>list and then run our same script on it, and then inject the address' 
>into another list (the announce list in this case)?


See the following FAQ articles

<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.005.htp>

<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.011.htp>

Also the following Mailman command line tools

bin/list_members
bin/add_members
bin/sync_members

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar  7 19:05:47 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 10:05:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Removing original mail as attachment
In-Reply-To: <3282629.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603071005470265f6c245b8@msapiro>

erhans wrote:
>
>When I send an e-mail (like who,lists etc.) command to Mailman 2.1.2 to
>mylist-request at foo.bar.com , it attaches my original mail in addition to the
>response to my command. 
>Is there a way to say Mailman not to attach my original mail.

Only by modifying the code in Mailman/Queue/CommandRunner.py.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From japruim at raoset.com  Tue Mar  7 18:24:58 2006
From: japruim at raoset.com (Jason Pruim)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:24:58 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] using .shtml on mailman generated pages
Message-ID: <A3DC7078-D47B-41C4-BB8C-9052991E8D95@raoset.com>

I sent this question awhile ago, and never heard anything but I had  
issues with my computer as well... So if you responded please forward  
that to me as I have no received it. If you didn't and there is  
anyway to do this I would be very excited to learn how!


One thing that I am wondering is if there is away to set mailman to
use .shtml files so I can incorporate my ssi files for navigation in
it and still maintain the one ssi file? I've looked and haven't found
away to do it yet. Hoping someone out there might be able to help me!

Thanks in Advance for any help or info you can provide!

Jason Pruim
japruim at raoset.com
Production & Technology Manager
MQC Specialist (2005 certified)
3251 132nd Ave
Holland MI 49424
616.399.2355
www.raoset.com





From earle at isolar.DynDNS.ORG  Tue Mar  7 19:30:23 2006
From: earle at isolar.DynDNS.ORG (Greg Earle)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 10:30:23 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trouble integrating Mailman 2.1.5 with ht://DiG -
	runaway "htnotify"
Message-ID: <3d7a6b10931349560a0153cd6a5e596c@isolar.DynDNS.ORG>

Hi folks,

I've just recently upgraded my Mailman 2.1.5 setup to include the
ht://DiG integration patches et al., and after getting it going and
sending the test e-mail through all of my lists to get the .conf files
set up etc., I tried a test run of "nightly_htdig" to get things
rolling.

This resulted in "rundig" running, and while "htdig" and "htmerge"
seem to run OK, it's hanging on the "htnotify" stage.  "htnotify"
opens the first of the "db.docdb" files (which isn't very large,
since all the lists were just recently set up) for the first of the
lists, and it then proceeds to start doing mmap2()'s (this is on
Red Hat Enterprise Linux 3 in case it matters, btw) of ever-increasing
sizes (by powers of 2) until it requests a 1 GB (why?!?) mapping,
then it just sits there in "Run" state for good, apparently doing
nothing (there's no more strace output after the 1 GB mmap2() - at
least, not until I eventually kill it off in frustration).

Any ideas?

Thanks,

	- Greg



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar  7 20:14:16 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 11:14:16 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need help on new mailing list
In-Reply-To: <s40da49d.047@hal.pcb.co.za>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603071114160437f6c24645@msapiro>

Kim Moodley wrote:

>How do I start creating a mailing list?

bin/newlist

or something like

<http://www.example.com/mailman/create>


>I have a mailing list and is it possible to duplicate the mailing list
>and put somebody else as the administrator of the duplicated mailing
>list.


It depends what you mean by 'duplicate'. If you mean duplicate
everything including the list name and posting address, then the
answer is no. If you mean create a list with a different name but the
same configuration and membership, then yes. How you would do this
depends on the kind of access you have to the mailman installation.

You might be able to do it by copying the lists/<listname>/config.pck
file to lists/<newname>/config.pck and then changing the 'real_name'
attribute, or you may be able to do it with tools such as
bin/config_list, bin/list_members and bin/add_members, or you may need
to create and configure the list manually via the web and use the
admin mass subscribe feature to add the members.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From Kucerar at hhmi.org  Tue Mar  7 23:11:47 2006
From: Kucerar at hhmi.org (Kucera, Rich)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 17:11:47 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] newb q about look and feel: redefine
	loginpage(mlist, doc, user, lang) doable?
Message-ID: <0EDA935F3B86D04E8408C7BC487B8C0E0129CB0B@hqexch3.hhmi.org>

Hello,

In options.py,  I'd like to be able to redefine loginpage(mlist, doc, user,
lang) and load it non-intrusively as a patch later.

 

How do I do this?

 

I would like it to behave like options_page(mlist, doc, user, cpuser,
userlang, message='')

 

This is so I can customize the look and feel.

 

It doesn't have to behave with an external template,  just would like to be
able to change it and load it so it redefines the existing function.

 

The problem is right now it looks inconsistent,  with the look and feel I've
been able to put in looking OK,  but then the login screen and some of the
response screens show the plain mailman look and feel.

 

There is another poster to this list who just asked about SSI's  well I'm
doing that by pulling the SSI templates remotely for SSI into the local
templates/en directory.   I can help there, but I just joined so I can't
respond to that thread directly.

 

Thanks for any help.

-Rich



From earle at isolar.DynDNS.ORG  Wed Mar  8 01:14:07 2006
From: earle at isolar.DynDNS.ORG (Greg Earle)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 16:14:07 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trouble integrating Mailman 2.1.5 with ht://DiG
	- runaway "htnotify"
In-Reply-To: <3d7a6b10931349560a0153cd6a5e596c@isolar.DynDNS.ORG>
References: <3d7a6b10931349560a0153cd6a5e596c@isolar.DynDNS.ORG>
Message-ID: <2C4CBEA8-6816-432A-A515-F82FB0DA4F30@isolar.DynDNS.ORG>

On Mar 7, 2006, at 10:30 AM, Greg Earle wrote:

> I've just recently upgraded my Mailman 2.1.5 setup to include the
> ht://DiG integration patches et al., and after getting it going and
> sending the test e-mail through all of my lists to get the .conf files
> set up etc., I tried a test run of "nightly_htdig" to get things
> rolling.
>
> This resulted in "rundig" running, and while "htdig" and "htmerge"
> seem to run OK, it's hanging on the "htnotify" stage.  "htnotify"
> opens the first of the "db.docdb" files (which isn't very large,
> since all the lists were just recently set up) for the first of the
> lists, and it then proceeds to start doing mmap2()'s (this is on
> Red Hat Enterprise Linux 3 in case it matters, btw) of ever-increasing
> sizes (by powers of 2) until it requests a 1 GB (why?!?) mapping,
> then it just sits there in "Run" state for good, apparently doing
> nothing (there's no more strace output after the 1 GB mmap2() - at
> least, not until I eventually kill it off in frustration).
>
> Any ideas?

Sorry for the noise - I've picked up the "Solaris only" (apparently
not) patch ("htnotifyNull.0") for "htnotify" from

	ftp://ftp.ccsf.org/htdig-patches/3.1.6/htnotifyNull.0

and rebuilt "htnotify", and now it's happy.

	- Greg



From Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz  Wed Mar  8 04:58:33 2006
From: Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz (Steven Jones)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 16:58:33 +1300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Adding a customised Footer & Header to mailman.
Message-ID: <75CF552F30ECFA439D9B3008906F2A374335C6@STAWINCOMAILCL1.staff.vuw.ac.nz>

Hi All,

I have a request from management to find out if I can add a footer and
possibly a header to all outgoing list messages. (Might be easiest to do
this via sendmail, but anyway).

I can see mailman adds some text onto each email, can this be set to do
something more comprehensive? Like fancy company logos and such got from
another location (database, mount point or something)?

Before you all flame me with retorts about html, bloat etc don't bother,
I don't want it myself but the business wants it, so it happens or I
have to replace Mailman with Exchange, and I really, really don't want
that.....

Regards

Steven


From msapiro at value.net  Wed Mar  8 05:14:05 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 20:14:05 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Adding a customised Footer & Header to mailman.
In-Reply-To: <75CF552F30ECFA439D9B3008906F2A374335C6@STAWINCOMAILCL1.staff.vuw.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603072014050453b73db2ea@msapiro>

Steven Jones wrote:
>
>I can see mailman adds some text onto each email, can this be set to do
>something more comprehensive? Like fancy company logos and such got from
>another location (database, mount point or something)?


Unless you are willing to modify code or create your own custom handler
to do this, the answer is no. There are ways (see
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.052.htp>)
to imbed things which 'look like' HTML into message and digest headers
and footers, but these things wind up in text/plain message parts, so
they will never be rendered as HTML.

See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.067.htp>
for some generic information about custom handlers.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Wed Mar  8 05:35:13 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 20:35:13 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Adding a customised Footer & Header to mailman.
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603072014050453b73db2ea@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030720351309533df8cf86@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Steven Jones wrote:
>>
>>I can see mailman adds some text onto each email, can this be set to do
>>something more comprehensive? Like fancy company logos and such got from
>>another location (database, mount point or something)?
>
>
>Unless you are willing to modify code or create your own custom handler
>to do this, the answer is no. There are ways (see
><http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.052.htp>)
>to imbed things which 'look like' HTML into message and digest headers
>and footers, but these things wind up in text/plain message parts, so
>they will never be rendered as HTML.

One thing you can do is put a uuencoded .jpg, .gif, .png, etc. image
in, for example, msg_header. What happens then is highly dependent on
the MUA used to read the mail. Since the OP mentioned 'exchange', we
might be talking 'lookout', er, I mean 'outlook' which might just
render such a thing inline and make management happy, at least until
clients/customers with real MUAs started complaining about all the
unintelligible garbage at the start of the email. (Forgive the sarcasm
please, my biases are showing.)

Note that you'd still have to use the methods of FAQ 3.52 to set the
uuencoded data in the headers/footers, as uuencoded data contains
characters that will be HTML escaped if added via the web interface.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From poison at list.memphistw.org  Wed Mar  8 11:47:05 2006
From: poison at list.memphistw.org (Patrick Siglin)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 04:47:05 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] news-gate
Message-ID: <20060308104709.D193E4102D2@list.memphistw.org>

Where do you tell mailman to poll for news? I had to rebuild everything do
to me causing the drive to reformat. 8-( Almost got my whole system back up.



From poison at list.memphistw.org  Wed Mar  8 11:49:15 2006
From: poison at list.memphistw.org (Patrick Siglin)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 04:49:15 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] email test
Message-ID: <20060308104920.52EDE4102D2@list.memphistw.org>

Test.sorry. Had some bouncing going on.



From jamesd at jml.net  Wed Mar  8 11:54:08 2006
From: jamesd at jml.net (James Davis)
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 10:54:08 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Misdirected probe messages?
Message-ID: <440EB7D0.7090103@jml.net>

First time I've run into trouble with mailman after running several
lists using it. I added a new list to my install yesterday which is an
order of magnitude larger than any I've run before with 3,600 users. I
set the list up as I would normally, adding the following aliases to my
exim virtual hosts setup.

## wil-mailing mailing list
wil-mailing:              "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post wil-mailing"
wil-mailing-admin:        "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman admin wil-mailing"
wil-mailing-bounces:      "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman bounces
wil-mailing"
wil-mailing-confirm:      "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman confirm
wil-mailing"
wil-mailing-join:         "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman join wil-mailing"
wil-mailing-leave:        "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman leave wil-mailing"
wil-mailing-owner:        "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman owner wil-mailing"
wil-mailing-request:      "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman request
wil-mailing"
wil-mailing-subscribe:    "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe
wil-mailing"
wil-mailing-unsubscribe:  "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe
wil-mailing"

About 300 addresses bounced on the first mailing and mailman sent probes
to those addresses. The probes seem to be bouncing back to addresses
that don't exist and ending up in my 'Catch all' mailbox. An example of
one of the mails that ends up in my mailbox follows. Any idea what I've
done wrong? I presume that bounce should end up going to mailman instead
of me.

Many thanks,

James

>From - Wed Mar 08 09:43:27 2006
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Return-path: <>
Envelope-to: james at localhost
Delivery-date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 07:37:27 +0000
Received: from Debian-exim by freecharity.org.uk with spam-scanned (Exim
4.50)
	id 1FGtA9-0003cQ-TQ
	for james at localhost; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 07:37:23 +0000
Received: from Debian-exim by freecharity.org.uk with local (Exim 4.50)
	id 1FGtA7-0003cE-PX
	for
wil-mailing-bounces+a37afb682adc1df029af9c3b91bdb51bf105cae6 at freecharity.org.uk;
Wed, 08 Mar 2006 07:32:48 +0000
X-Failed-Recipients: kj at teapot.org.uk
Auto-Submitted: auto-generated
From: Mail Delivery System <Mailer-Daemon at freecharity.org.uk>
To:
wil-mailing-bounces+a37afb682adc1df029af9c3b91bdb51bf105cae6 at freecharity.org.uk
Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
Message-Id: <E1FGtA7-0003cE-PX at freecharity.org.uk>
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 07:32:47 +0000
Status: O
X-UID: 2908
Content-Length: 36394
X-Keywords:


This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.

A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:

  kj at teapot.org.uk
    Unrouteable address

------ This is a copy of the message, including all the headers. ------

Return-path:
<wil-mailing-bounces+a37afb682adc1df029af9c3b91bdb51bf105cae6 at freecharity.org.uk>
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=freecharity.org.uk)
	by freecharity.org.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50)
	id 1FGtA5-0003c0-UM
	for kj at teapot.org.uk; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 07:32:46 +0000
Subject: WIL-mailing mailing list probe message
From:
wil-mailing-bounces+a37afb682adc1df029af9c3b91bdb51bf105cae6 at freecharity.org.uk
To: kj at teapot.org.uk
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1232351077=="
Message-ID: <mailman.683.1141778786.539.wil-mailing at freecharity.org.uk>
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 00:46:26 +0000
Precedence: bulk
X-BeenThere: wil-mailing at freecharity.org.uk
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5
List-Id: WIL website alerts <wil-mailing.freecharity.org.uk>
X-List-Administrivia: yes
Sender:
wil-mailing-bounces+a37afb682adc1df029af9c3b91bdb51bf105cae6 at freecharity.org.uk
Errors-To:
wil-mailing-bounces+a37afb682adc1df029af9c3b91bdb51bf105cae6 at freecharity.org.uk

--===============1232351077==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This is a probe message.  You can ignore this message.

The WIL-mailing mailing list has received a number of bounces from
you, indicating that there may be a problem delivering messages to
kj at teapot.org.uk. A bounce sample is attached below.  Please examine
this message to make sure there are no problems with your email
address.  You may want to check with your mail administrator for more
help.

If you are reading this, you don't need to do anything to remain an
enabled member of the mailing list.  If this message had bounced, you
would not be reading it, and your membership would have been disabled.
Normally when you are disabled, you receive occasional messages asking
you to re-enable your subscription.

You can also visit your membership page at


http://freecharity.org.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/options/wil-mailing/kj%40teapot.org.uk


On your membership page, you can change various delivery options such
as your email address and whether you get digests or not.  As a
reminder, your membership password is

    xxxxxxxx

If you have any questions or problems, you can contact the list owner
at

    wil-mailing-owner at freecharity.org.uk

--===============1232351077==
Content-Type: message/rfc822
MIME-Version: 1.0

Received: from Debian-exim by freecharity.org.uk with local (Exim 4.50)
	id 1FGlT2-0000yV-Rv for wil-mailing-bounces at freecharity.org.uk;
	Tue, 07 Mar 2006 23:19:49 +0000
X-Failed-Recipients: <long list of addresses here>

-- 
http://www.freecharity.org.uk/ - Free hosting for charities
http://jamesd.ukgeeks.co.uk/


From msapiro at value.net  Wed Mar  8 16:14:21 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 07:14:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Misdirected probe messages?
In-Reply-To: <440EB7D0.7090103@jml.net>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603080714210734616ff193@msapiro>

James Davis wrote:

>First time I've run into trouble with mailman after running several
>lists using it. I added a new list to my install yesterday which is an
>order of magnitude larger than any I've run before with 3,600 users. I
>set the list up as I would normally, adding the following aliases to my
>exim virtual hosts setup.


If you set up Exim as suggested in
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.019.htp>
and the references it points to, you won't need to bother with aliases
at all for Mailman, and you won't have this problem.




>Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender


>Return-path:
><wil-mailing-bounces+a37afb682adc1df029af9c3b91bdb51bf105cae6 at freecharity.org.uk>

Exim is not recognizing that addresses of the form
local_part+suffix at ... should be delivered as if +suffix is not there.

In your case, using aliases, I *think* your

systemalias:

router needs the following:

local_part_suffix = +*
local_part_suffix_optional

either that or you need aliases like

wil-mailing-bounces+*: "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman bounces
wil-mailing"
wil-mailing-confirm+*: "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman confirm
wil-mailing"


but it is much better to set up a router and transport for mailman as
discussed in the material referenced in the FAQ or at
<http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node16.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Wed Mar  8 16:23:23 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 07:23:23 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] news-gate
In-Reply-To: <20060308104709.D193E4102D2@list.memphistw.org>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603080723230484400ce57b@msapiro>

Patrick Siglin wrote:

>Where do you tell mailman to poll for news? I had to rebuild everything do
>to me causing the drive to reformat. 8-( Almost got my whole system back up.


I know this must be a stressful time, but didn't we just discuss this
at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-March/049772.html>,
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-March/049773.html>
and
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-March/049775.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Wed Mar  8 16:25:46 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 07:25:46 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Misdirected probe messages?
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603080714210734616ff193@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030807254608432dba9ff9@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>either that or you need aliases like
>
>wil-mailing-bounces+*: "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman bounces
>wil-mailing"
>wil-mailing-confirm+*: "|/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman confirm
>wil-mailing"


Those would be in addition to the others.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From edcarlsen at cox.net  Wed Mar  8 15:53:02 2006
From: edcarlsen at cox.net (edcarlsen at cox.net)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 9:53:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Public vs Private Mailing List
Message-ID: <20060308145253.UEFT5868.centrmmtao05.cox.net@[172.18.53.8]>

I just installed Mailman version 2.1.5 on a Fedora Core 4 server and all seems to be working well.
I created two lists, mailman and second. I marked mailman as a private list and second as a public list.
When I request the public lists available by e-mail from the mailman-request address it tells me both my list are public lists. When I request the public lists available from the second-request address, it tells me only the second list is available (which is correct).
Is there some special significance to the list named mailman?
I have set the options in the "Privacy" section from the web pages and I have created both list using the command line: new_list XXXXXX
Is there something more I need to do or did I do something wrong?
Thanks in advance.
Ed Carlsen




From slox-lutz at callassoftware.com  Wed Mar  8 16:47:36 2006
From: slox-lutz at callassoftware.com (usegroup)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 16:47:36 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] index.html
Message-ID: <021a01c642c7$a033c3f0$ea00000a@lutz>



 Dear List!


 After "importing" several List from our Provider in the local listserver I
 get into some troubles. One of them is, that after rebuilding the archive
 with the arch-script the index.html is not rebuild.

 Does anybody know how to handle this

 with regards Lutz Atzert




From peterb at ucar.edu  Wed Mar  8 17:27:45 2006
From: peterb at ucar.edu (Peter Burkholder)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 09:27:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailpasswds not sending reminders to local domain
Message-ID: <4E416933-9D54-402A-BB59-A449758AAAD7@ucar.edu>

We've recently migrated our mailman install from www.group.ucar.edu  
to lists.group.ucar.edu, and moved from Solaris to CentOS4.  Most  
things work just fine once I ran fix_url on all my lists, except for  
two things.

1)  the monthly run of mailpasswds seems to have sent reminders to  
everyone EXCEPT members with addresses in @group.ucar.edu.  This  
conclusion is based on reports from users and my digging through  
maillog.  I have VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW set to the default (On).  I'm  
running mailman 2.1.7 and sendmail.

Can anyone help shed light on this?

Thanks,

Peter

P.S.  I'll save #2 for later.


--
Peter Burkholder
System Administrator, DLESE Program Center
peterb at ucar.edu
+1-303-497-2663
     "There cannot be a crisis next week. My schedule is
     already full" -- Henry Kissinger




From nosagie at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  8 18:04:25 2006
From: nosagie at hotmail.com (nico osagie)
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 17:04:25 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error: qrunner
Message-ID: <BAY103-F67DFF1A083B79106374E3B7EF0@phx.gbl>

Hi all,

Mailman seems to bounce every message posted and i am not sure what is 
happening, I have include error log from mailman/logs/error

system: mailman/exim on solaris 9.


EXTRACT OF MAILMAN/mm_cfg.py


Note that these are just default settings; many can be overridden via the
administrator and user interfaces on a per-list or per-user basis.

"""

###############################################
# Here's where we get the distributed defaults.

from Defaults import *

##################################################
# Put YOUR site-specific settings below this line.

DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST='motown.dmu.ac.uk'
DEFAULT_URL_HOST='motown.dmu.ac.uk'
add_virtualhost (DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
MTA=None




MAILMAN/LOGS/ERROR

Mar 06 14:03:02 2006 qrunner(398): Traceback (most recent call last):
Mar 06 14:03:02 2006 qrunner(398):   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", 
line 270, in ?
Mar 06 14:03:02 2006 qrunner(398):      main()
Mar 06 14:03:02 2006 qrunner(398):   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", 
line 230, in main
Mar 06 14:03:02 2006 qrunner(398):      qrunner.run()
Mar 06 14:03:02 2006 qrunner(398):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 70, in run
Mar 06 14:03:02 2006 qrunner(398):      filecnt = self._oneloop()
Mar 06 14:03:02 2006 qrunner(398):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 99, in _oneloop
Mar 06 14:03:02 2006 qrunner(398):      msg, msgdata = 
self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase)
Mar 06 14:03:02 2006 qrunner(398):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 143, in dequeue
Mar 06 14:03:02 2006 qrunner(398):      fp = open(filename)
Mar 06 14:03:02 2006 qrunner(398): IOError :  [Errno 2] No such file or 
directory: 
'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out/1141466101.7418921+09f550148c3847cebaf5de5dc5571c5c474338a3.pck'
Mar 06 14:03:03 2006 qrunner(400): Traceback (most recent call last):
Mar 06 14:03:03 2006 qrunner(400):   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", 
line 270, in ?
Mar 06 14:03:03 2006 qrunner(400):      main()
Mar 06 14:03:03 2006 qrunner(400):   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", 
line 230, in main
Mar 06 14:03:03 2006 qrunner(400):      qrunner.run()
Mar 06 14:03:03 2006 qrunner(400):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 70, in run
Mar 06 14:03:03 2006 qrunner(400):      filecnt = self._oneloop()
Mar 06 14:03:03 2006 qrunner(400):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 99, in _oneloop
Mar 06 14:03:03 2006 qrunner(400):      msg, msgdata = 
self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase)
Mar 06 14:03:03 2006 qrunner(400):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 143, in dequeue
Mar 06 14:03:03 2006 qrunner(400):      fp = open(filename)
Mar 06 14:03:03 2006 qrunner(400): IOError :  [Errno 2] No such file or 
directory: 
'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out/1141467302.364816+6936f479e480cd24d2aa98c008847d5338f0b9d0.pck'
Mar 06 14:03:04 2006 qrunner(401): Traceback (most recent call last):
Mar 06 14:03:04 2006 qrunner(401):   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", 
line 270, in ?
Mar 06 14:03:04 2006 qrunner(401):      main()
Mar 06 14:03:04 2006 qrunner(401):   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", 
line 230, in main
Mar 06 14:03:04 2006 qrunner(401):      qrunner.run()
Mar 06 14:03:04 2006 qrunner(401):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 70, in run
Mar 06 14:03:04 2006 qrunner(401):      filecnt = self._oneloop()
Mar 06 14:03:04 2006 qrunner(401):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 99, in _oneloop
Mar 06 14:03:04 2006 qrunner(401):      msg, msgdata = 
self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase)
Mar 06 14:03:04 2006 qrunner(401):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 143, in dequeue
Mar 06 14:03:04 2006 qrunner(401):      fp = open(filename)
Mar 06 14:03:04 2006 qrunner(401): IOError :  [Errno 2] No such file or 
directory: 
'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out/1141469402.675473+83ac2059b9a68e915a20cbe20acc9ec93c216fc7.pck'
Mar 06 14:03:06 2006 qrunner(399): Traceback (most recent call last):
Mar 06 14:03:06 2006 qrunner(399):   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", 
line 270, in ?
Mar 06 14:03:06 2006 qrunner(399):      main()
Mar 06 14:03:06 2006 qrunner(399):   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", 
line 230, in main
Mar 06 14:03:06 2006 qrunner(399):      qrunner.run()
Mar 06 14:03:06 2006 qrunner(399):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 70, in run
Mar 06 14:03:06 2006 qrunner(399):      filecnt = self._oneloop()
Mar 06 14:03:06 2006 qrunner(399):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 99, in _oneloop
Mar 06 14:03:06 2006 qrunner(399):      msg, msgdata = 
self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase)
Mar 06 14:03:06 2006 qrunner(399):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 143, in dequeue
Mar 06 14:03:06 2006 qrunner(399):      fp = open(filename)
Mar 06 14:03:06 2006 qrunner(399): IOError :  [Errno 2] No such file or 
directory: 
'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out/1141471202.507355+2355f98f3f9a6dfff81161fb2a6eb9a78293e24e.pck'
Mar 06 14:03:07 2006 qrunner(403): Traceback (most recent call last):
Mar 06 14:03:07 2006 qrunner(403):   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", 
line 270, in ?
Mar 06 14:03:07 2006 qrunner(403):      main()
Mar 06 14:03:07 2006 qrunner(403):   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", 
line 230, in main
Mar 06 14:03:07 2006 qrunner(403):      qrunner.run()
Mar 06 14:03:07 2006 qrunner(403):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 70, in run
Mar 06 14:03:07 2006 qrunner(403):      filecnt = self._oneloop()
Mar 06 14:03:07 2006 qrunner(403):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 99, in _oneloop
Mar 06 14:03:07 2006 qrunner(403):      msg, msgdata = 
self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase)
Mar 06 14:03:07 2006 qrunner(403):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 143, in dequeue
Mar 06 14:03:07 2006 qrunner(403):      fp = open(filename)
Mar 06 14:03:07 2006 qrunner(403): IOError :  [Errno 2] No such file or 
directory: 
'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out/1141473604.8920331+b976c8b20c8ef6381880e884b175d1f4a1ee7012.pck'
Mar 06 14:03:09 2006 qrunner(402): Traceback (most recent call last):
Mar 06 14:03:09 2006 qrunner(402):   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", 
line 270, in ?
Mar 06 14:03:09 2006 qrunner(402):      main()
Mar 06 14:03:09 2006 qrunner(402):   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", 
line 230, in main
Mar 06 14:03:09 2006 qrunner(402):      qrunner.run()
Mar 06 14:03:09 2006 qrunner(402):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 70, in run
Mar 06 14:03:09 2006 qrunner(402):      filecnt = self._oneloop()
Mar 06 14:03:09 2006 qrunner(402):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 99, in _oneloop
Mar 06 14:03:09 2006 qrunner(402):      msg, msgdata = 
self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase)
Mar 06 14:03:09 2006 qrunner(402):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 143, in dequeue
Mar 06 14:03:09 2006 qrunner(402):      fp = open(filename)
Mar 06 14:03:09 2006 qrunner(402): IOError :  [Errno 2] No such file or 
directory: 
'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out/1141475101.774698+88379ed26e2ee3c9be2004c9f9aa3b1b130ccbc7.pck'
Mar 07 05:00:02 2006 qrunner(364): Traceback (most recent call last):
Mar 07 05:00:02 2006 qrunner(364):   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", 
line 270, in ?
Mar 07 05:00:02 2006 qrunner(364):      main()
Mar 07 05:00:02 2006 qrunner(364):   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", 
line 230, in main
Mar 07 05:00:02 2006 qrunner(364):      qrunner.run()
Mar 07 05:00:02 2006 qrunner(364):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 70, in run
Mar 07 05:00:02 2006 qrunner(364):      filecnt = self._oneloop()
Mar 07 05:00:02 2006 qrunner(364):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 99, in _oneloop
Mar 07 05:00:02 2006 qrunner(364):      msg, msgdata = 
self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase)
Mar 07 05:00:02 2006 qrunner(364):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 143, in dequeue
Mar 07 05:00:02 2006 qrunner(364):      fp = open(filename)
Mar 07 05:00:02 2006 qrunner(364): IOError :  [Errno 2] No such file or 
directory: 
'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/in/1141707602.32394+30a0faf2163ac5e3e95e8e39acf1a074cd6c43aa.pck'
Mar 07 08:00:04 2006 qrunner(267): Traceback (most recent call last):
Mar 07 08:00:04 2006 qrunner(267):   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", 
line 270, in ?
Mar 07 08:00:04 2006 qrunner(267):      main()
Mar 07 08:00:04 2006 qrunner(267):   File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", 
line 230, in main
Mar 07 08:00:04 2006 qrunner(267):      qrunner.run()
Mar 07 08:00:04 2006 qrunner(267):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 70, in run
Mar 07 08:00:04 2006 qrunner(267):      filecnt = self._oneloop()
Mar 07 08:00:04 2006 qrunner(267):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 99, in _oneloop
Mar 07 08:00:04 2006 qrunner(267):      msg, msgdata = 
self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase)
Mar 07 08:00:04 2006 qrunner(267):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 143, in dequeue
Mar 07 08:00:04 2006 qrunner(267):      fp = open(filename)
Mar 07 08:00:04 2006 qrunner(267): IOError :  [Errno 2] No such file or 
directory: 
'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/in/1141718403.7353361+47950cfb03fe1b84cc5441b0c11e479740d8e138.pck'
Mar 07 14:00:49 2006 mailmanctl(254): Traceback (most recent call last):
Mar 07 14:00:49 2006 mailmanctl(254):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/bin/mailmanctl", line 547, in ?
Mar 07 14:00:49 2006 mailmanctl(254):      main()
Mar 07 14:00:49 2006 mailmanctl(254):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/bin/mailmanctl", line 473, in main
Mar 07 14:00:49 2006 mailmanctl(254):      pid, status = os.wait()
Mar 07 14:00:49 2006 mailmanctl(254):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/bin/mailmanctl", line 433, in sigalrm_handler
Mar 07 14:00:49 2006 mailmanctl(254):      lock.refresh()
Mar 07 14:00:49 2006 mailmanctl(254):   File 
"/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 229, in refresh
Mar 07 14:00:49 2006 mailmanctl(254):      raise NotLockedError, '%s: %s' % 
(repr(self), self.__read())
Mar 07 14:00:49 2006 mailmanctl(254): Mailman.LockFile . NotLockedError :  
<LockFile 5172560: /usr/local/mailman/locks/master-qrunner [unlocked: 
108000sec] pid=254>: /usr/local/mailman/locks/master-qrunner.motown.355
$ >




From list at manuelmartini.it  Wed Mar  8 20:29:56 2006
From: list at manuelmartini.it (Martin)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 20:29:56 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] import dumpdb exported file
Message-ID: <20060308202956.2a0e1656@DELOREAN.manuelmartini.it>


Hi all


I have .db file of  a list to import on new fresh mailman installation
this file was generated by dumpdb.
how can i import that file?

thanks for help
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 187 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/attachments/20060308/84f55c4a/attachment.pgp 

From geoff at deering.id.au  Wed Mar  8 20:43:54 2006
From: geoff at deering.id.au (Geoff Deering)
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 06:43:54 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] subscription request as recieved,
	but nothing further happens (randomly)
Message-ID: <440F33FA.7010805@deering.id.au>

Hi,

I have Mailman 2.16 installed on a server.  It seems to behaving 
erratically by only subscribing people randomly, some subscriptions are 
processed without problems.  I can't find what is happening with the 
failed attempts to subscribe.  It's acknowledging the subscription 
request as recieved, but there is no trace of it in the system and 
nothing further happens.

Any suggestions?

Regards
Geoff


From siim at hk.tlu.ee  Thu Mar  9 10:40:29 2006
From: siim at hk.tlu.ee (Siim Kobin)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 11:40:29 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrade
Message-ID: <200603091140.30037.siim@hk.tlu.ee>


i need to upgrade mailman from 2.1.4 to 2.1.7 on suse 9.1, but i can't find 
rpm for it.
how can i do this with minimal time & data loss. it has to be online 24/7 so i 
can't allow it to be offline for very long time.

i think it should work if i just recompile it, but i don't know suse specific 
installation paths and i'm afraid i will mess something up.. in that case it 
will take much longer to bring mailman up and running again.

i could use any help you guys can offer.

thanx..


-- 
Siim Kobin
TL? Haapsalu Kolled?


From kim at pcb.co.za  Thu Mar  9 14:46:18 2006
From: kim at pcb.co.za (Kim Moodley)
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 15:46:18 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can i add attachments
Message-ID: <s4104de0.001@hal.pcb.co.za>

I have setup a new mailing list.

Can i add attachments when i want to send out to my members in the
mailing list?

Thanks

Kind Regards


Kim Moodley

PCB Technologies (Pty) Ltd
Phone:  +27 (11) 880-9999
Fax:       +27 (11) 880-2555
E-Mail:   kim at pcb.co.za 
Web  :   http://www.pcb.co.za



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Thu Mar  9 16:23:51 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 09:23:51 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can i add attachments
In-Reply-To: <s4104de0.001@hal.pcb.co.za>
References: <s4104de0.001@hal.pcb.co.za>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603090723k3173135bi99cfb28737e6e43f@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/9/06, Kim Moodley <kim at pcb.co.za> wrote:
> I have setup a new mailing list.
Congratulations.

> Can i add attachments when i want to send out to my members in the
> mailing list?
Yes.

--
- Patrick Bogen


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Thu Mar  9 16:36:10 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 09:36:10 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrade
In-Reply-To: <200603091140.30037.siim@hk.tlu.ee>
References: <200603091140.30037.siim@hk.tlu.ee>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603090736r297cb873w674ea9b2b7c571b5@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/9/06, Siim Kobin <siim at hk.tlu.ee> wrote:
> i need to upgrade mailman from 2.1.4 to 2.1.7 on suse 9.1, but i can't find
> rpm for it.
Interestingly, SuSe seems to have removed mailman from its 10.0
release. Anyway, you can find a 2.1.7 RPM here:
ftp://rpmfind.net/linux/fedora/core/development/i386/Fedora/RPMS/mailman-2.1.7-1.2.i386.rpm
It's not exactly for SuSe, but it ought to work. You might need to get
some other packages from the same repository.

> how can i do this with minimal time & data loss. it has to be online 24/7 so i
> can't allow it to be offline for very long time.
For best effect, back up your archives, back up your configurations,
completely remove the old one, and install either the new RPM or from
source (this shouldn't take /too/ long.)

(To the list; There doesn't seem to be an extremely clear FAQ entry
accessible from the search term 'backup'. A clear, step-by-step guide
on how to backup/restore and/or copy a configuration would probably be
useful.)

--
- Patrick Bogen


From mengland at mengland.net  Thu Mar  9 16:36:46 2006
From: mengland at mengland.net (Matt England)
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 09:36:46 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 1 email for multiple email-list recipients on same
	server?
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060309093142.06e554b0@127.0.0.1>

The problem:

I subscribe to multiple lists on my company's collaboration server.  Often 
email posters to these lists will copy 2 or more of these lists at once 
with the same email--and this is appropriate for the way we've designed our 
communication systems.

This issue that I (and others in the same situation) don't care to get 
multiple copies of the same email for the multiple email lists.  The 
"prevent email copies" per-user feature doesn't seem to address this 
(although it does handle the 
my-invidividual-email-address-is-Cc-ed-to-the-email stuff).

Solutions?

We are using Mailman 2.1.6rc4.  Is there a path available for this, or 
updated revs of Mailman, which can support a feature to avoid "cross-list 
dupes" (as I call it)?

Sorry if this is a faq.

-Matt



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Thu Mar  9 16:42:07 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 09:42:07 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 1 email for multiple email-list recipients on
	same server?
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060309093142.06e554b0@127.0.0.1>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060309093142.06e554b0@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603090742n11d3ee05p2e616c0a6ca1b8e1@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/9/06, Matt England <mengland at mengland.net> wrote:
> The problem:
>
snip
>
> Solutions?
User education?

Which is to say, this seems to be beyond the scope of Mailman. I don't
believe it has any facility for checking what was sent to other lists
(or, as far as I know, checking what was previously sent to "this"
list) when it determines what to do with messages.

Alternatively, maybe something with procmail that hashes the body of
messages (appropriately trimmed) and discards duplicates.

--
- Patrick Bogen


From mengland at mengland.net  Thu Mar  9 16:50:48 2006
From: mengland at mengland.net (Matt England)
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 09:50:48 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 1 email for multiple email-list recipients on
 same server?
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00603090742n11d3ee05p2e616c0a6ca1b8e1@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060309093142.06e554b0@127.0.0.1>
	<6fbe3da00603090742n11d3ee05p2e616c0a6ca1b8e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060309094715.06bafd10@127.0.0.1>

I don't believe it's a user-education-oriented problem; I want my users to 
do this.

Mailman has the capability via ("Avoid duplicate copies of messages?") to 
determine when email is being sent to an external user that's on its 
subscription list; why not use the same/similar mechanism to check the 
duplications on other subscription lists?

This leads me to believe that this capability is well within the capability 
of Mailman to support.  Alas, I don't have intimate knowledge of the 
internals, and therefore I speak from a very ignorant position.

Also, if the Mailman development community does not want to support this 
feature based upon some policy or principal, I suppose there's little that 
can be done.  FWIW, I think this would be a useful feature for Mailman, but 
that's just my perspective.

-Matt

At 3/9/2006 09:42 AM, Patrick Bogen wrote:
>On 3/9/06, Matt England <mengland at mengland.net> wrote:
> > The problem:
> >
>snip
> >
> > Solutions?
>User education?
>
>Which is to say, this seems to be beyond the scope of Mailman. I don't
>believe it has any facility for checking what was sent to other lists
>(or, as far as I know, checking what was previously sent to "this"
>list) when it determines what to do with messages.
>
>Alternatively, maybe something with procmail that hashes the body of
>messages (appropriately trimmed) and discards duplicates.



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Thu Mar  9 16:58:08 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 09:58:08 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 1 email for multiple email-list recipients on
	same server?
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060309094715.06bafd10@127.0.0.1>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060309093142.06e554b0@127.0.0.1>
	<6fbe3da00603090742n11d3ee05p2e616c0a6ca1b8e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.2.0.2.20060309094715.06bafd10@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603090758r1f85188aub0c7852739720e63@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/9/06, Matt England <mengland at mengland.net> wrote:
> Mailman has the capability via ("Avoid duplicate copies of messages?") to
> determine when email is being sent to an external user that's on its
> subscription list; why not use the same/similar mechanism to check the
> duplications on other subscription lists?
I think the problem is that a given mailman list doesn't have any
concept that there might be other lists in the same mailman instance.
The only way it does what you describe is, essentially, by looking at
the 'CC' in the message and dropping any of those addresses from the
list of addresses it eventually sends to.

Sending to multiple lists, the message is split off at the MTA level;
mailman gets one copy of the message to each of its aliases for the
lists (or however your setup is done).

> Also, if the Mailman development community does not want to support this
> feature based upon some policy or principal, I suppose there's little that
> can be done.  FWIW, I think this would be a useful feature for Mailman, but
> that's just my perspective.
Sorry if I gave the impression otherwise, but I am not authoritative.
Someone else may know better than I, or someone else may decide that
this is the best thing since sliced bread and is working on a patch
for it right now..

--
- Patrick Bogen


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar  9 17:20:59 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 08:20:59 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 1 email for multiple email-list recipients
	onsame server?
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060309094715.06bafd10@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <PC174020060309082059021865cf7295@msapiro>

Matt England wrote:
>
>Mailman has the capability via ("Avoid duplicate copies of messages?") to 
>determine when email is being sent to an external user that's on its 
>subscription list; why not use the same/similar mechanism to check the 
>duplications on other subscription lists?


It would be much more complicated. It's pretty easy for lista's
delivery to look at the To: and Cc: headers of the message it's
delivering to see if the lista member is in those headers.

Now suppose it finds listb and listc in those headers. It would then
have to look at the members of those lists and see if the current
delivery candidate is a member of one of those lists, has delivery
enabled on that list and is receiving messages and not digests from
that list. And then if it did all those things and decided not to
deliver, presumably listb and listc would do the same thing and not
deliver either and the user would receive 0 emails.


See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.005.htp>
for some ideas about how to build unduplicated 'super lists' that can
be used to post to the members of more than one list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From mengland at mengland.net  Thu Mar  9 17:27:41 2006
From: mengland at mengland.net (Matt England)
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 10:27:41 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 1 email for multiple email-list recipients
 onsame server?
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060309082059021865cf7295@msapiro>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060309094715.06bafd10@127.0.0.1>
	<PC174020060309082059021865cf7295@msapiro>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060309102459.06da4280@127.0.0.1>

At 3/9/2006 10:20 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>Now suppose it finds listb and listc in those headers. It would then
>have to look at the members of those lists and see if the current
>delivery candidate is a member of one of those lists, has delivery
>enabled on that list and is receiving messages and not digests from
>that list.

...yes...

>  And then if it did all those things and decided not to
>deliver, presumably listb and listc would do the same thing and not
>deliver either and the user would receive 0 emails.

...and this seems to be the trickiest part: which list becomes the 
"primary" one.  I can envision straightforward (even though they are not 
easy to implement solutions) to everything except this last point.  :(


>See
><http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.005.htp>
>for some ideas about how to build unduplicated 'super lists' that can
>be used to post to the members of more than one list.

Thanks for the reference, that's very helpful.

-Matt 



From charles at stremen.xs4all.nl  Thu Mar  9 17:05:48 2006
From: charles at stremen.xs4all.nl (Charles Stroom)
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 17:05:48 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrade
In-Reply-To: Message from "Patrick Bogen" <pdbogen@gmail.com> of "Thu,
	09 Mar 2006 09:36:10 CST."
	<6fbe3da00603090736r297cb873w674ea9b2b7c571b5@mail.gmail.com> 
References: <200603091140.30037.siim@hk.tlu.ee>
	<6fbe3da00603090736r297cb873w674ea9b2b7c571b5@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <20060309160548.DE363710@corrente.localnet>

not 2.1.7, but 2.1.6 is in the 10.0 Suse distri.  See:

ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/apt/SuSE/10.0-i386/RPMS.base/mailman-2.1.6-4.i586.rp
m

Charles Stroom


------- Original Message

on  Thu, 09 Mar 2006 09:36:10 CST
"Patrick Bogen" <pdbogen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/9/06, Siim Kobin <siim at hk.tlu.ee> wrote:
> > i need to upgrade mailman from 2.1.4 to 2.1.7 on suse 9.1, but i can't find
> > rpm for it.
> Interestingly, SuSe seems to have removed mailman from its 10.0
> release.
> 
> --
> - Patrick Bogen




From pdbogen at gmail.com  Thu Mar  9 17:29:54 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 10:29:54 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 1 email for multiple email-list recipients
	onsame server?
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060309102459.06da4280@127.0.0.1>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060309094715.06bafd10@127.0.0.1>
	<PC174020060309082059021865cf7295@msapiro>
	<6.1.2.0.2.20060309102459.06da4280@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603090829m40b948bbta0632ef1b248fd2b@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/9/06, Matt England <mengland at mengland.net> wrote:
> ...and this seems to be the trickiest part: which list becomes the
> "primary" one.  I can envision straightforward (even though they are not
> easy to implement solutions) to everything except this last point.  :(
Easy enough: The first list on the list of lists (does that make
sense? The first list that is listed in the message as a recipient) is
"primary". If I'm not first, I don't deliver. If I am, go for it.
Or the first alphabetically. It doesn't really matter, as long as
everything agrees.

--
- Patrick Bogen


From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Mar  9 19:35:06 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 03:35:06 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 1 email for multiple email-list recipients
 onsame server?
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00603090829m40b948bbta0632ef1b248fd2b@mail.gmail.com>
	(Patrick Bogen's message of "Thu, 9 Mar 2006 10:29:54 -0600")
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060309094715.06bafd10@127.0.0.1>
	<PC174020060309082059021865cf7295@msapiro>
	<6.1.2.0.2.20060309102459.06da4280@127.0.0.1>
	<6fbe3da00603090829m40b948bbta0632ef1b248fd2b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <874q27sbz9.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

>>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick Bogen <pdbogen at gmail.com> writes:

    Patrick> On 3/9/06, Matt England <mengland at mengland.net> wrote:

    >> ...and this seems to be the trickiest part: which list becomes
    >> the "primary" one.  I can envision straightforward (even though
    >> they are not easy to implement solutions) to everything except
    >> this last point.  :(

    Patrick> Easy enough: The first list on the list of lists (does
    Patrick> that make sense? The first list that is listed in the
    Patrick> message as a recipient) is "primary". If I'm not first, I
    Patrick> don't deliver. If I am, go for it.  Or the first
    Patrick> alphabetically. It doesn't really matter, as long as
    Patrick> everything agrees.

BCC.  Oops-I-forgot-list-B-and-resend.  Umbrella lists.  There are
probably other ways to ensure that different lists get different sets
of addresses.  Any of the suggestions will probably work in Matt's
particular case, but might break down in other cases.  Also, list
admins can create aliases for a list; you'd need to handle that.  I
*think* that all the problem cases "fail safe" (ie, you may get dupes,
but you never lose a post entirely), but you'd want to prove that!


-- 
School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
University of Tsukuba                    Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
               Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
              ask what your business can "do for" free software.


From mengland at mengland.net  Thu Mar  9 21:02:03 2006
From: mengland at mengland.net (Matt England)
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 14:02:03 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 1 email for multiple email-list recipients
 onsame server?
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00603090829m40b948bbta0632ef1b248fd2b@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060309094715.06bafd10@127.0.0.1>
	<PC174020060309082059021865cf7295@msapiro>
	<6.1.2.0.2.20060309102459.06da4280@127.0.0.1>
	<6fbe3da00603090829m40b948bbta0632ef1b248fd2b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060309140111.0463eec0@127.0.0.1>

At 3/9/2006 10:29 AM, Patrick Bogen wrote:
>On 3/9/06, Matt England <mengland at mengland.net> wrote:
> > ...and this seems to be the trickiest part: which list becomes the
> > "primary" one.  I can envision straightforward (even though they are not
> > easy to implement solutions) to everything except this last point.  :(
>Easy enough: The first list on the list of lists (does that make
>sense? The first list that is listed in the message as a recipient) is
>"primary". If I'm not first, I don't deliver. If I am, go for it.
>Or the first alphabetically. It doesn't really matter, as long as
>everything agrees.

Makes sense.

I suspect a feature like this will never make it into a pre-3 release, if 
ever.  Alas, this makes for a nice reference thread; "umbrella" lists may 
be the more-popular answer, at least for now.

-Matt 



From poison at list.memphistw.org  Thu Mar  9 21:35:42 2006
From: poison at list.memphistw.org (Patrick Siglin)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 14:35:42 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] newsgroups
Message-ID: <20060309203448.M71946@list.memphistw.org>

I can pull mail down but my list does not seem to be posting back to the 
newsgroup. What do I need to check? I don't know which log would show this 
info.

--
poison at list.memphistw.org



From poison at list.memphistw.org  Thu Mar  9 21:54:18 2006
From: poison at list.memphistw.org (Patrick Siglin)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 14:54:18 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] not posting to newsgroup
Message-ID: <20060309205230.M95515@list.memphistw.org>

Here is my error. I do have the username and password set in defaults.py and 
also my preferred news server. Does the username and password go in "" 
or '' ? What else do I need to check. Here is the error I get in the error log

 441 Posting Failed (You are not allowed to post!)
--
poison at list.memphistw.org



From tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp  Thu Mar  9 22:05:01 2006
From: tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp (Tokio Kikuchi)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 06:05:01 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 1 email for multiple email-list
 recipients	onsame server?
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060309140111.0463eec0@127.0.0.1>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060309094715.06bafd10@127.0.0.1>	<PC174020060309082059021865cf7295@msapiro>	<6.1.2.0.2.20060309102459.06da4280@127.0.0.1>	<6fbe3da00603090829m40b948bbta0632ef1b248fd2b@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.2.0.2.20060309140111.0463eec0@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <4410987D.3020404@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>

Hi,

Matt England wrote:
> At 3/9/2006 10:29 AM, Patrick Bogen wrote:
> 
>>On 3/9/06, Matt England <mengland at mengland.net> wrote:
>>
>>>...and this seems to be the trickiest part: which list becomes the
>>>"primary" one.  I can envision straightforward (even though they are not
>>>easy to implement solutions) to everything except this last point.  :(
>>
>>Easy enough: The first list on the list of lists (does that make
>>sense? The first list that is listed in the message as a recipient) is
>>"primary". If I'm not first, I don't deliver. If I am, go for it.
>>Or the first alphabetically. It doesn't really matter, as long as
>>everything agrees.
> 
> 
> Makes sense.
> 
> I suspect a feature like this will never make it into a pre-3 release, if 
> ever.

Actually, a patch to make it possible is waiting to be integrated in 
mailman-2.2.
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1347962&group_id=103&atid=300103
I want to merge into the CVS trunk as soon as the next mailman-2.1.8 bug 
fix release is out.

>  Alas, this makes for a nice reference thread; "umbrella" lists may 
> be the more-popular answer, at least for now.
> 
> -Matt 

-- 
Tokio Kikuchi, tkikuchi@ is.kochi-u.ac.jp
http://weather.is.kochi-u.ac.jp/


From jamesd at jml.net  Thu Mar  9 23:55:55 2006
From: jamesd at jml.net (James Davis)
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 22:55:55 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Memory usage
Message-ID: <4410B27B.9060608@jml.net>

Many thanks for the help with my previous problem. During the last run
of posting to my large list my server crashed due to lack of memory. I
thought this was due to a change to the exim configuration I'd made but
observations on today's run indicate that it was mailman's python
process taking up all the memory.

What can I do to decrease or limit the memory mailman uses whilst
running? I don't particularly mind if this comes at the expense of
performance.

James

-- 
http://www.freecharity.org.uk/ - Free hosting for charities
http://jamesd.ukgeeks.co.uk/


From matt at mail.netera.ca  Thu Mar  9 23:56:48 2006
From: matt at mail.netera.ca (Matthew Clarkson)
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 15:56:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrade
In-Reply-To: <20060309160548.DE363710@corrente.localnet>
References: <200603091140.30037.siim@hk.tlu.ee>	<6fbe3da00603090736r297cb873w674ea9b2b7c571b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060309160548.DE363710@corrente.localnet>
Message-ID: <4410B2B0.8030305@mail.netera.ca>

Charles Stroom wrote:
> not 2.1.7, but 2.1.6 is in the 10.0 Suse distri.  See:
>
> ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/apt/SuSE/10.0-i386/RPMS.base/mailman-2.1.6-4.i586.rp
> m
>
> Charles Stroom
>
>
> ------- Original Message
>
> on  Thu, 09 Mar 2006 09:36:10 CST
> "Patrick Bogen" <pdbogen at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> On 3/9/06, Siim Kobin <siim at hk.tlu.ee> wrote:
>>     
>>> i need to upgrade mailman from 2.1.4 to 2.1.7 on suse 9.1, but i can't find
>>> rpm for it.
>>>       
>> Interestingly, SuSe seems to have removed mailman from its 10.0
>> release.
>>
>> --
>> - Patrick Bogen
>>     
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/matt%40mail.netera.ca
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>   
I have never tried this, but what about using the bin/update program.   
I have not seen this suggested and I am wondering why (or am I missing 
the point of this app).  Should this upgrade the whole version of mailman?

--
Matthew Clarkson


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 10 00:49:03 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 15:49:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] not posting to newsgroup
In-Reply-To: <20060309205230.M95515@list.memphistw.org>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603091549030312abc61dbb@msapiro>

Patrick Siglin wrote:

>Here is my error. I do have the username and password set in defaults.py and 
>also my preferred news server.


Your settings should be in mm_cfg.py, not Defaults.py. See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.021.htp>


>Does the username and password go in "" 
>or '' ?


It doesn't matter unless ' or " appears in the value.


>What else do I need to check. Here is the error I get in the error log
>
> 441 Posting Failed (You are not allowed to post!)


Check all the settings on the list's Mail<->News gateways page
including nntp_host which is the real host - the setting of
DEFAULT_NNTP_HOST is just the default value that is put here for a new
list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 10 01:00:33 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 16:00:33 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Public vs Private Mailing List
In-Reply-To: <20060308145253.UEFT5868.centrmmtao05.cox.net@[172.18.53.8]>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030916003303435dea1ff8@msapiro>

<edcarlsen at cox.net> wrote:

>I created two lists, mailman and second. I marked mailman as a private list and second as a public list.
>When I request the public lists available by e-mail from the mailman-request address it tells me both my list are public lists. When I request the public lists available from the second-request address, it tells me only the second list is available (which is correct).
>Is there some special significance to the list named mailman?


The 'mailman' list is not special in this context. The issue is that
the list that is processing the request will be shown in the results
whether or not it is 'advertised' (the comment in the code is

# We can mention this list if you already know about it).

I realize this is inconsistent with the heading of the results that
says 'Public mailing lists at ...', but that's the way it currently
works.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 10 01:04:11 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 16:04:11 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] not posting to newsgroup
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603091549030312abc61dbb@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030916041103595dea1ff2@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>Patrick Siglin wrote:
>
>>What else do I need to check. Here is the error I get in the error log
>>
>> 441 Posting Failed (You are not allowed to post!)
>
>
>Check all the settings on the list's Mail<->News gateways page
>including nntp_host which is the real host - the setting of
>DEFAULT_NNTP_HOST is just the default value that is put here for a new
>list.


Also, check the nntp server logs to see if there is more info there
about why it is not allowing the post.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 10 01:07:23 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 16:07:23 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] index.html
In-Reply-To: <021a01c642c7$a033c3f0$ea00000a@lutz>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603091607230531dc05a08a@msapiro>

usegroup wrote:
>
> After "importing" several List from our Provider in the local listserver I
> get into some troubles. One of them is, that after rebuilding the archive
> with the arch-script the index.html is not rebuild.
>
> Does anybody know how to handle this

What command are you running? Does it build the rest of the archive?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 10 01:20:21 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 16:20:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailpasswds not sending reminders to local
	domain
In-Reply-To: <4E416933-9D54-402A-BB59-A449758AAAD7@ucar.edu>
Message-ID: <PC174020060309162021003131524934@msapiro>

Peter Burkholder wrote:
>
>1)  the monthly run of mailpasswds seems to have sent reminders to  
>everyone EXCEPT members with addresses in @group.ucar.edu.  This  
>conclusion is based on reports from users and my digging through  
>maillog.  I have VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW set to the default (On).  I'm  
>running mailman 2.1.7 and sendmail.

Do these users receive normal list mail?

Are there entries in Mailman's smtp-failure log from Mar 1 05:00
(assuming you mail passwords at the default time)?

There will be entries in Mailman's smtp log of the form

Mar 01 05:00:04 2006 (1570)
<mailman.12.1141218001.32762.mailman at example.com> smtp for 1 recips,
completed in 0.081 seconds

for each reminder sent. You could count these and compare that count to
the total number of unique addresses subscribed to your lists to at
least get an idea if Mailman is sending them or not (you may need to
subtract users who have opted for no reminders).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 10 01:47:38 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 16:47:38 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error: qrunner
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F67DFF1A083B79106374E3B7EF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603091647380406d85b827c@msapiro>

nico osagie wrote:
>
>Mailman seems to bounce every message posted and i am not sure what is 
>happening, I have include error log from mailman/logs/error


I'm not sure what you mean by 'bounce', but


>MAILMAN/LOGS/ERROR
>
>Mar 06 14:03:02 2006 qrunner(398): IOError :  [Errno 2] No such file or 
>directory: 
>'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out/1141466101.7418921+09f550148c3847cebaf5de5dc5571c5c474338a3.pck'

>Mar 06 14:03:03 2006 qrunner(400): IOError :  [Errno 2] No such file or 
>directory: 
>'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out/1141467302.364816+6936f479e480cd24d2aa98c008847d5338f0b9d0.pck'

>Mar 06 14:03:04 2006 qrunner(401): IOError :  [Errno 2] No such file or 
>directory: 
>'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out/1141469402.675473+83ac2059b9a68e915a20cbe20acc9ec93c216fc7.pck'

>Mar 06 14:03:06 2006 qrunner(399): IOError :  [Errno 2] No such file or 
>directory: 
>'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out/1141471202.507355+2355f98f3f9a6dfff81161fb2a6eb9a78293e24e.pck'

>Mar 06 14:03:07 2006 qrunner(403): IOError :  [Errno 2] No such file or 
>directory: 
>'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out/1141473604.8920331+b976c8b20c8ef6381880e884b175d1f4a1ee7012.pck'

>Mar 06 14:03:09 2006 qrunner(402): IOError :  [Errno 2] No such file or 
>directory: 
>'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out/1141475101.774698+88379ed26e2ee3c9be2004c9f9aa3b1b130ccbc7.pck'

>Mar 07 05:00:02 2006 qrunner(364): IOError :  [Errno 2] No such file or 
>directory: 
>'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/in/1141707602.32394+30a0faf2163ac5e3e95e8e39acf1a074cd6c43aa.pck'

>Mar 07 08:00:04 2006 qrunner(267): IOError :  [Errno 2] No such file or 
>directory: 
>'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/in/1141718403.7353361+47950cfb03fe1b84cc5441b0c11e479740d8e138.pck'

>Mar 07 14:00:49 2006 mailmanctl(254): Mailman.LockFile . NotLockedError :  
><LockFile 5172560: /usr/local/mailman/locks/master-qrunner [unlocked: 
>108000sec] pid=254>: /usr/local/mailman/locks/master-qrunner.motown.355


These errors all indicate you have multiple qrunners processing the
same queues.

You need to do

bin/mailmanctl stop

and then do 'ps' to figure out what Mailman processes are still running
and SIGTERM them until none are left. Then run

bin/mailmanctl start

once only. Then if you still have problems, see
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.014.htp>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 10 01:54:43 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 16:54:43 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] import dumpdb exported file
In-Reply-To: <20060308202956.2a0e1656@DELOREAN.manuelmartini.it>
Message-ID: <PC174020060309165443029691d14e13@msapiro>

Martin wrote:
>
>I have .db file of  a list to import on new fresh mailman installation
>this file was generated by dumpdb.
>how can i import that file?


If what you have is actually a config.db Python Marshal, all you have
to do is create the directory lists/<listname>/ in the new
installation and put the config.db file in it and access the
<listname> list in the admin interface, and the file will be converted
to a new config.pck.

If what you have is actually a listing produced by bin/dumpdb, you
might be able to use it as input to bin/config_list, maybe with a
little editing.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 10 02:53:57 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 17:53:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] subscription request as recieved,
	but nothing further happens (randomly)
In-Reply-To: <440F33FA.7010805@deering.id.au>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603091753570765f9be8f16@msapiro>

Geoff Deering wrote:
>
>I have Mailman 2.16 installed on a server.  It seems to behaving 
>erratically by only subscribing people randomly, some subscriptions are 
>processed without problems.  I can't find what is happening with the 
>failed attempts to subscribe.  It's acknowledging the subscription 
>request as recieved, but there is no trace of it in the system and 
>nothing further happens.

Acknowledging in what way? By email? What does the email say?

What is the list's Privacy options...->Subscription
rules->subscribe_policy?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 10 03:49:50 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 18:49:50 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrade
In-Reply-To: <4410B2B0.8030305@mail.netera.ca>
Message-ID: <PC17402006030918495005787917d2b4@msapiro>

Matthew Clarkson wrote:

>Charles Stroom wrote:
>> not 2.1.7, but 2.1.6 is in the 10.0 Suse distri.  See:
>>
>> ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/apt/SuSE/10.0-i386/RPMS.base/mailman-2.1.6-4.i586.rpm


2.1.8a1 was just announced. If there's no immediate urgency, I'd wait a
few weeks and then upgrade to 2.1.8.


>I have never tried this, but what about using the bin/update program.   
>I have not seen this suggested and I am wondering why (or am I missing 
>the point of this app).  Should this upgrade the whole version of mailman?


The bin/update script is run by 'make install' as part of the
installation of an upgrade to update list configurations and other
data to the new version as necessary. It can also be run stand alone
to do the same thing. It won't do anything if upgraded software hasn't
already been installed.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jimpop at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 10 04:04:00 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 22:04:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] subscriber filters
Message-ID: <4410ECA0.8040500@yahoo.com>

Is there a way to require approval for all subscribers expect for those 
emails/domains that match a certain pattern?

Thx,

-Jim P.




From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 10 04:25:11 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 19:25:11 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] subscriber filters
In-Reply-To: <4410ECA0.8040500@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC174020060309192511087513b35f16@msapiro>

Jim Popovitch wrote:

>Is there a way to require approval for all subscribers expect for those 
>emails/domains that match a certain pattern?

There's no current configuration option. It seems like a good idea to
me, so I was going to suggest an RFE, but it seems there is (a quite
old) one at
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=403066&group_id=103&atid=350103>.

I'll look into implementing this for Mailman 2.2

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Fri Mar 10 04:49:58 2006
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 21:49:58 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] link to archive in email?
Message-ID: <DBB2E4C4173F1749B6C7434140611783D9B3E3@NASDAQ.usa.Arm.com>

I'd like to configure Mailman to add a link to the footer of each post
that points to that post in the archive.  My thought is that this will
make it easier for people to refresh their memory of the context of the
thread before replying.  I spent a couple hours reading FAQs and
searching the archives of this list and learned some useful things about
content filtering that I didn't know, but I didn't see the answer to
this question.  I currently have 2.1.5 installed, I will try to get the
server owner to update this installation.

thanks for any suggestions,

--steve


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.



From geoff at deering.id.au  Fri Mar 10 05:16:40 2006
From: geoff at deering.id.au (Geoff Deering)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 15:16:40 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] subscription request as recieved,
 but nothing further happens (randomly)
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603091753570765f9be8f16@msapiro>
References: <PC1740200603091753570765f9be8f16@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4410FDA8.8090604@deering.id.au>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Geoff Deering wrote:
>  
>
>>I have Mailman 2.16 installed on a server.  It seems to behaving 
>>erratically by only subscribing people randomly, some subscriptions are 
>>processed without problems.  I can't find what is happening with the 
>>failed attempts to subscribe.  It's acknowledging the subscription 
>>request as recieved, but there is no trace of it in the system and 
>>nothing further happens.
>>    
>>
>
>Acknowledging in what way? By email? What does the email say?
>
>What is the list's Privacy options...->Subscription
>rules->subscribe_policy?
>
>  
>

Hi Mark,

Thanks for enquiring to my problem.  I have now actually read the logs 
and seen that there are attempts to subscribe where some are processed 
and others fail.  I am still working on it, but I think the problem is 
that the list is running on a sub domain and it does not resolve to the 
SMTP server on the primary domain.  It also does not work all the time 
when it is declared on the sub domain also.  I have played with this a 
bit, but I am going to move the list to the primary domain, as another 
test server on the main domain seems to work okay.  Strangely, when I 
set this up first on the sub domain I had no problem.  I'm thinking that 
maybe I am getting timeouts from sub/virtual domain resolution.  Hope 
that makes sense. 

Thanks
Geoff


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 10 05:43:09 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 20:43:09 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] link to archive in email?
In-Reply-To: <DBB2E4C4173F1749B6C7434140611783D9B3E3@NASDAQ.usa.Arm.com>
Message-ID: <PC174020060309204309081213b35ed5@msapiro>

Steve Ravet wrote:

>I'd like to configure Mailman to add a link to the footer of each post
>that points to that post in the archive.  My thought is that this will
>make it easier for people to refresh their memory of the context of the
>thread before replying.  I spent a couple hours reading FAQs and
>searching the archives of this list and learned some useful things about
>content filtering that I didn't know, but I didn't see the answer to
>this question.  I currently have 2.1.5 installed, I will try to get the
>server owner to update this installation.

This has been discussed before on this list. There is a recent thread
at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2005-August/046254.html>.

There is also an existing RFE at
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=669056&group_id=103&atid=350103>.

Basically, it is not possible to do this given current Mailman
architecture. Archiving is handed off to a separate queue handled by a
separate qrunner so it isn't possible for the post delivery path to
know what the archive URL will be.

Many advantages would accrue, this being one of them, if archiving were
changed so that a unique archive URL is calculated from the content of
the message, but this is still in the future.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From atann at gmx.net  Fri Mar 10 07:14:56 2006
From: atann at gmx.net (Andre Tann)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 07:14:56 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list moderation via email
Message-ID: <200603100714.57171@inter.netz>

Hello,

Is it possible to accept and reject mails and memberships by email? 
The only way I can find is to go to the list web site. But I am 
thinking about something like the confirmation mail one gets when 
trying to subscribe to a list.
I haven seen this feature at yahoogroups.com, and I find it a very 
useful and fast way to care about a list.

-- 
Andre Tann



From geoff at deering.id.au  Fri Mar 10 07:20:10 2006
From: geoff at deering.id.au (Geoff Deering)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 17:20:10 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] subscription request as recieved,
 but nothing further happens (randomly)
In-Reply-To: <20060310045135.M75310@list.memphistw.org>
References: <PC1740200603091753570765f9be8f16@msapiro>
	<4410FDA8.8090604@deering.id.au>
	<20060310045135.M75310@list.memphistw.org>
Message-ID: <44111A9A.8060506@deering.id.au>

Patrick Siglin wrote:

>Mine sits on a subdomain. I was having a similar problem which turned out to 
>be a wrong setting on my dns server on the primary.
>
>  
>

I think the dns is okay, just that on the default install it seems to be 
looking for an SMTP server on the sub domain.  Also I am not using the 
standard install, I'm using the one that comes with CPanel.   But maybe 
there is something else I'm missing?

--------
Geoff


From hansen at rc.org  Fri Mar 10 07:46:56 2006
From: hansen at rc.org (Allan Hansen)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 22:46:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 1 email for multiple email-list recipients
 onsame server?
Message-ID: <p06230932c036d15a680f@[10.0.1.2]>

I run a bunch of lists and have set up a special 'all_subscribers' list
that I maintain with a cron job that runs every night. The cron job
runs the following script:

the file list_of_all_lists contains the names of all the lists I want to
include with this 'all_subscribers' list.


########
#!/bin/bash
touch /tmp/all_subs
for i in $(cat list_of_all_lists)
do
   /usr/share/mailman/bin/list_members -f --nomail=enabled $i >> /tmp/all_subs
done
cat /tmp/all_subs|sort -u > /tmp/all_subs.sorted
/usr/share/mailman/bin/sync_members -f /tmp/all_subs.sorted all_subscribers > /dev/null
rm /tmp/all_subs /tmp/all_subs.sorted
##########

Sending to this list causes the post to go to each subscriber of any list just once.

I have another list that combines a subset of the lists similarly.

Allan





At 10:27 -0600 3/9/06, Matt England wrote:
>At 3/9/2006 10:20 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>Now suppose it finds listb and listc in those headers. It would then
>>have to look at the members of those lists and see if the current
>>delivery candidate is a member of one of those lists, has delivery
>>enabled on that list and is receiving messages and not digests from
>>that list.
>
>...yes...
>
>>  And then if it did all those things and decided not to
>>deliver, presumably listb and listc would do the same thing and not
>>deliver either and the user would receive 0 emails.
>
>...and this seems to be the trickiest part: which list becomes the 
>"primary" one.  I can envision straightforward (even though they are not 
>easy to implement solutions) to everything except this last point.  :(
>
>
>>See
>><http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.005.htp>
>>for some ideas about how to build unduplicated 'super lists' that can
>>be used to post to the members of more than one list.
>
>Thanks for the reference, that's very helpful.
>
>-Matt 

-- 
 _________________________________________________________________
| Allan Hansen, Ph.D.                                             |
|    P.O. Box 2423, Cypress, CA 90630, U.S.A.                     |
|                                                                 |
| Work:                              Home:                        |
| Phone: +1-714/952-6015             +1-714/875-8870              |
| Fax:   +1-714/952-6746                                          |
| Email: allan.hansen at ugs.com        hansen at rc.org                |
| WWW:   http://www.ugs.com          http://www.rc.org/           |
|                                                                 |
|_Anything is possible with the right tools and right information_|


From oliver at samera.com.py  Fri Mar 10 15:09:27 2006
From: oliver at samera.com.py (Oliver Schulze L.)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 11:09:27 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Tip for finding in the source
Message-ID: <44118897.5010304@samera.com.py>

Hi,
anyone can help me find where in the code or .py file the bounces
are sended to the owner of the list?

Many thanks
Oliver

-- 
Oliver Schulze L.
<oliver at samera.com.py>




From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 10 16:08:04 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 07:08:04 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list moderation via email
In-Reply-To: <200603100714.57171@inter.netz>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603100708040484f9092888@msapiro>

Andre Tann wrote:
>
>Is it possible to accept and reject mails and memberships by email? 


If you set admin_immed_notify to Yes on the list's General Options
page, the admins/moderators receive individual notifications of held
posts. These notices contain an attached message with a subject like

Subject: confirm d3d1ca983ecb49cccefe92ed238bfc97bc862f70

and sender and from like
	
Sender: listname-request at example.com
From: listname-request at example.com

If you reply to that address with that subject the request will either
be approved or denied depending on the presence or absence of an

Approved: <list_password>

line in either the headers or the first line of the body of the reply,
just as it says in the body of that message. Note that the password
can be either the list admin password or the list moderator password.

With many MUAs, you can just open the attached message and reply to
deny the request or add the Approved: line to the beginning of the
body and reply to accept it.

This is only for held messages. Subscription requests have to be
handled via the web.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 10 16:33:14 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 07:33:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Tip for finding in the source
In-Reply-To: <44118897.5010304@samera.com.py>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603100733140656f909293e@msapiro>

Oliver Schulze L. wrote:

>anyone can help me find where in the code or .py file the bounces
>are sended to the owner of the list?


The actual recognition/parsing of bounces is done by
Mailman/Bouncers/BouncerAPI.py with help from individual recognizers
in Mailman/Bouncers/.

The process is driven by Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.py and the actual
sending of notices, scoring of bounces, etc. is done in
Mailman/Bouncer.py.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From G.Booth at usm.edu  Fri Mar 10 17:17:52 2006
From: G.Booth at usm.edu (George Booth)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 10:17:52 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual Host and Web Interface
References: <PC1740200603100733140656f909293e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <007401c6445e$2ed121b0$f3cb5f83@elysium>

I'm having a "small" problem at the moment trying to get Mailman configured 
for a virtual host. Here's our situation:

Mailman resides on our mail server. In an attempt to help I/O on the mail 
server, we put our webmail on a seperate server. Thus, web requests that 
would have gone to the main mail server, mail.server.com (not the real FQDN) 
now go to webmail.server.com

This of course broke the Mailman web interface, since it still resides on 
mail.server.com, where it is redirected to the other server. In an attempt 
to correct this, our consultant decided to put a virtual domain on 
mail.server.com called mailman.server.com. Going directly to 
mailman.server.com/mailman/admin/list-name pulls up the main page of the 
list with no problem. However, all links on the page revert back to 
mail.server.com, thus web management is impossible for my users. Changing 
the url in the address bar to mailman.server.com as the base works, but I 
can't ask my users, many of whom barely know how to operate a mouse, to do 
this each time they want to click a link in the web interface.

I've changed the DEFAULT_URL_HOST in the mm_cfg.py to mailman.server.com, 
which should change everything, at least as far as I've followed in the 
documentation...but it doesn't. I've tried putting mailman.server.com in the 
VIRTUAL_HOSTS = {} entry in mm_cfg.py, but that breaks everything and puts 
up the nice "Mailman has found a bug!" page.

Am I missing something vital to change this? I thought this might also be an 
apache configuration problem, but the administrator of the box has been 
looking into it, but apparently has found nothing yet.

The server is running RedHat Linux AS3 Update 6.

I do have to wonder if the values for urlhost and hostname aren't being 
updated correctly; and, if not, where do I set this information if not with 
DEFAULT_URL_HOST?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

George

<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>
George Booth     iTech System Administrator
G.Booth at usm.edu
University of Southern Mississippi 




From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 10 17:38:22 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 08:38:22 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual Host and Web Interface
In-Reply-To: <007401c6445e$2ed121b0$f3cb5f83@elysium>
Message-ID: <PC174020060310083822003107e59d95@msapiro>

George Booth wrote:
>
>Am I missing something vital to change this? I thought this might also be an 
>apache configuration problem, but the administrator of the box has been 
>looking into it, but apparently has found nothing yet.

Yes.

>Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py

See article 4.29 - in particular the "Existing versus new lists"
section.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From haroldp at sierraweb.com  Fri Mar 10 18:53:05 2006
From: haroldp at sierraweb.com (Harold Paulson)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:53:05 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Memory usage
In-Reply-To: <4410B27B.9060608@jml.net>
References: <4410B27B.9060608@jml.net>
Message-ID: <14abf1d561ead11000fdcc26bb8a0a73@sierraweb.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

James,

> What can I do to decrease or limit the memory mailman uses whilst
> running? I don't particularly mind if this comes at the expense of
> performance.

I seem to recall one of the recent point releases greatly reducing the 
amount of memory my Mailman processes took up.  That is just anecdotal, 
so your milage may vary, but it might be worthwhile to make sure your 
install is up to date.  Usually a good idea anyway.

I saved a little bit by disabling the usenet gateway qrunner, which I 
never use.  It still uses a huge amount of RAM though.  I'll be 
interested to see any other tips.

	- H


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin)

iD8DBQFEEb0BOy/dHTCUq6oRAu0EAJ9GGtaN+vhflAkmcbaH1ShCeNYlywCcCZ97
1Mcc0PR1TxBkxlC3sPmEbx4=
=bmz4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From G.Booth at usm.edu  Fri Mar 10 19:46:05 2006
From: G.Booth at usm.edu (George Booth)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:46:05 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual Host and Web Interface
References: <PC1740200603100733140656f909293e@msapiro>
	<007401c6445e$2ed121b0$f3cb5f83@elysium>
Message-ID: <00c201c64472$e39437e0$f3cb5f83@elysium>

This issue has now been resolved. Thank you, Mark, for your friendly 
assistance.

Thanks,

George
<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>
George Booth     iTech System Administrator
G.Booth at usm.edu
University of Southern Mississippi
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "George Booth" <G.Booth at usm.edu>
To: <mailman-users at python.org>
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 10:17 AM
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Virtual Host and Web Interface


I'm having a "small" problem at the moment trying to get Mailman configured
for a virtual host. Here's our situation:

Mailman resides on our mail server. In an attempt to help I/O on the mail
server, we put our webmail on a seperate server. Thus, web requests that
would have gone to the main mail server, mail.server.com (not the real FQDN)
now go to webmail.server.com

This of course broke the Mailman web interface, since it still resides on
mail.server.com, where it is redirected to the other server. In an attempt
to correct this, our consultant decided to put a virtual domain on
mail.server.com called mailman.server.com. Going directly to
mailman.server.com/mailman/admin/list-name pulls up the main page of the
list with no problem. However, all links on the page revert back to
mail.server.com, thus web management is impossible for my users. Changing
the url in the address bar to mailman.server.com as the base works, but I
can't ask my users, many of whom barely know how to operate a mouse, to do
this each time they want to click a link in the web interface.

I've changed the DEFAULT_URL_HOST in the mm_cfg.py to mailman.server.com,
which should change everything, at least as far as I've followed in the
documentation...but it doesn't. I've tried putting mailman.server.com in the
VIRTUAL_HOSTS = {} entry in mm_cfg.py, but that breaks everything and puts
up the nice "Mailman has found a bug!" page.

Am I missing something vital to change this? I thought this might also be an
apache configuration problem, but the administrator of the box has been
looking into it, but apparently has found nothing yet.

The server is running RedHat Linux AS3 Update 6.

I do have to wonder if the values for urlhost and hostname aren't being
updated correctly; and, if not, where do I set this information if not with
DEFAULT_URL_HOST?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

George

<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>
George Booth     iTech System Administrator
G.Booth at usm.edu
University of Southern Mississippi


------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list
Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/g.booth%40usm.edu

Security Policy: 
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp 




From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Sat Mar 11 00:23:09 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 15:23:09 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] More Htdig problems
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060310151243.05dda7c0@crimson-dragon.com>

I finally got Htdig to compile on my system, I tested it out and it works.

I added the proper settings to mm_cfg.py in my patched version of 
Mailman 2.1.5 to enable using Htdig.

I then rebuilt my archives using bin/arch --wipe and ran the 
nightly_htdig script to index everything.

So far so good, it's all happy up to this point. I get the search 
form on the archive index page and I can do a successful search.

But then a strange thing happens when a new post arrives on the list. 
As soon as somebody posts, the search form disappears from the index 
page. It's just gone. I can rebuild the archive and re-index things 
and it works again.

I am using customized templates for my archive pages though I don't 
see how that might matter.

Anyone have any insight into what might be causing this?

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Sat Mar 11 00:53:40 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 15:53:40 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Never mind... (was  More Htdig problems)
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060310155328.05d5d648@crimson-dragon.com>

I forgot to restart Mailman. Now that I did that, everything works fine.

I realized this about 15 seconds after sending my appeal for help.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From bgmahesh at gmail.com  Sat Mar 11 09:44:40 2006
From: bgmahesh at gmail.com (BG Mahesh)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 14:14:40 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Few email ids being dropped
Message-ID: <5227ac5c0603110044i6d9cb385ode3b4a187861f17@mail.gmail.com>

In the log file of mailman we see something like

to="user1 at xyz.com, user2 at xyz.com, user3 at xyz.com, user4 at xyz.com"

i.e. 4 users of the same domain are shown above. But on the mailserver of
xyz.com [which is sendmail] in maillog file we see only user1 at xyz.com, the
other 3 users are not in maillog of xyz.com and not receiving the email.

Where could it be getting lost?

--
--
B.G. Mahesh


From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar 11 16:19:47 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 07:19:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Few email ids being dropped
In-Reply-To: <5227ac5c0603110044i6d9cb385ode3b4a187861f17@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603110719470953c8c9a8a8@msapiro>

BG Mahesh wrote:

>In the log file of mailman we see something like
>
>to="user1 at xyz.com, user2 at xyz.com, user3 at xyz.com, user4 at xyz.com"


In which Mailman log file? What Mailman version?

I'm not aware of any Mailman log entries that look like that.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar 11 19:58:31 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 10:58:31 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] subscriber filters
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060309192511087513b35f16@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603111058310078111e2c6d@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>Jim Popovitch wrote:
>
>>Is there a way to require approval for all subscribers expect for those 
>>emails/domains that match a certain pattern?
>
>There's no current configuration option. It seems like a good idea to
>me, so I was going to suggest an RFE, but it seems there is (a quite
>old) one at
><http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=403066&group_id=103&atid=350103>.
>
>I'll look into implementing this for Mailman 2.2


I've implemented this (list of addresses and regexps exempt from
approval when subscription requires approval) as a patch to the
2.1.8a1 base. The patch is attached to the above tracker item.

I'm interested in feedback. In order to get it, I'm willing to help
with applying the patch to other recent versions.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From gail.lists at verizon.net  Sat Mar 11 23:08:55 2006
From: gail.lists at verizon.net (Gail)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 17:08:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Questions about how moderating works
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603110719470953c8c9a8a8@msapiro>
Message-ID: <C038B4A7.A742F%gail.lists@verizon.net>

Hi Folks

Please forgive me if these questions are already answered someplace in the
on line documentation, I swear I've looked, but can't find info on these
issues, and they're rather important to me.  A point toward the right place
on the site, or hopefully a quick answer would be greatly appreciated.

I moderate a hobby email list for about 6000 people from a remote location
away from the server and sponsor of the list.  I am not very technical and
my vocabulary may be a bit off too, but hopefully I'll not take up a lot of
time with silly questions.  Just think of my mistakes as comic relief! <G>
we're looking for alternative software to use for running this list and
after a rather difficult conversion in the past, I'm hoping to better
anticipate and deal with differences we'll find this time.

The way we've run the list requires that all messages must be read and
approved by me, and at times I also need to 'add' comments to the end of a
message.  It appears that all approvals are done on the web, rather than
through email, is that correct?

Is it hard to use an on line web approval system?  To add comments, or to
reformat the original message in particular?  I've used one in the past that
was nearly impossible to use and had to abandon it as it more than tripled
the time required to do the job!

Is it necessary that messages be approved in the same order they were
received in?  

Can digest be manually created via some sort of command or are all digests
created automatically based on size or a time of day set up on the system?

Is it possible to ban or strip all attachments completely?

I realize many of these issues raised are things people should be trained to
do before sending in a message, but its impossible to train some folks who
can barely turn on a computer to trim previous messages, make a subject line
relevant, and wrap words properly - just a few of the issues I deal with
every day.  At the same time, some questions require a simple answer which I
currently add to the end of their messages.  If I don't do that 'add' I'll
instead get 20 people answering it, so its far preferable that I answer them
at once.  I do realize messages can be 'deferred' but it would seem simpler
to jump around and approve messages in a different order without having to
defer things.  All this may be moot if there's an option for doing the
processing through email as I have always done in the past.

Another 'nice to have' option would be if digests are formatted with a list
of inclusions at the beginning, including the subject, sender's name, and
perhaps a number for each message?  I've subbed here with another address to
get digest versions, but none have arrived so perhaps Verizon's acting up
again and I should check that out.

Thank you for any info you can give me, having gone through one change that
was less than pleasant, I'm hoping to anticipate any possible issues up
front this time.

Take care
Gail
  



From msapiro at value.net  Sun Mar 12 00:40:36 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 15:40:36 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Questions about how moderating works
In-Reply-To: <C038B4A7.A742F%gail.lists@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <PC174020060311154036017186038f4f@msapiro>

Gail wrote:
>
>The way we've run the list requires that all messages must be read and
>approved by me, and at times I also need to 'add' comments to the end of a
>message.  It appears that all approvals are done on the web, rather than
>through email, is that correct?


No. Moderated messages can be approved or discarded either via the web
or via email.


>Is it hard to use an on line web approval system?  To add comments, or to
>reformat the original message in particular?  I've used one in the past that
>was nearly impossible to use and had to abandon it as it more than tripled
>the time required to do the job!


The on line approval process is simple, but editing messages to be
approved is very cumbersome at best. See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.009.htp>.


>Is it necessary that messages be approved in the same order they were
>received in?  


No, but approving a reply prior to the original message may affect
threading in the archives.


>Can digest be manually created via some sort of command or are all digests
>created automatically based on size or a time of day set up on the system?


Digests are normally produced once a day by a cron job and additionally
when they reach a settable size limit. You can turn off periodic
digests, and you can manually trigger a digest at any time.


>Is it possible to ban or strip all attachments completely?


Yes.


>All this may be moot if there's an option for doing the
>processing through email as I have always done in the past.


You can approve by email, and editing the 'approved' post is most
easily accomplished by email too, although it is cumbersome.


>Another 'nice to have' option would be if digests are formatted with a list
>of inclusions at the beginning, including the subject, sender's name, and
>perhaps a number for each message?

Digests come in two flavors selectable by the recipient. Either a
flattened, plain text format or MIME format with each message in its
own message/rfc822 part.

In either format, the messages are preceded by some list boiler plate
and a table of contents like the following:

Today's Topics:

   1. RE: Triple chain rings (John Mulvihill)
   2. Compact Triple (Jack Holmgren)
   3. Re: Compact Triple (Mark Sapiro)
   4. Re: Compact Triple (Dan Brekke)
   5. Re: Compact Triple (Rich Fisher)
   6. Re: question about the ham-radio support (Oren Leiman)
   7. SSR Tomorrow (James Hand)
   8. Davis Double Century & Triple Crown Stage Race (Robert Ballard)
   9. Re: SSR Tomorrow (Rich Fisher)
  10. March 11th ASSR Cancelled (John Buenfil)
  11. Re: SSR Tomorrow (John Buenfil)
  12. Re: Saturday, March 11:  TM Pace "Presto" Ride (Garcia Maria)
  13. Re: Saturday, March 11:  TM Pace "Presto" Ride (Rich Fisher)
  14. Prehaps we don't need the front wheell after all (charles nighbor)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From bethelweb at bethelassembly.org  Sat Mar 11 23:35:49 2006
From: bethelweb at bethelassembly.org (bethelweb)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 17:35:49 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Post Requires Approval
Message-ID: <000001c6455c$29f297b0$2e01a8c0@HESED>

Hello all,

No doubt, a question of ignorance, but I've not found the answer.

I created a list.  I sent this email to the list and I get the email 
below.  I am the moderator, but I don't recall setting a password
and the link that came with the email below requires a password.

Where did I go wrong?

Thanks,

Mike Dugan

-----Original Message-----
From: Bethelmen-owner at bethelassembly.org
[mailto:Bethelmen-owner at bethelassembly.org] 
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 4:07 PM
To: Bethelmen-owner at bethelassembly.org
Subject: Bethelmen post from bethel01 at bethelassembly.org requires
approval

As list administrator, your authorization is requested for the
following mailing list posting:

    List:    Bethelmen at bethelassembly.org
    From:    bethel01 at bethelassembly.org
    Subject: TEST - PLEASE IGNORE
    Reason:  Post by non-member to a members-only list

At your convenience, visit:

 
http://bethelassembly.org/mailman/admindb/bethelmen_bethelassembly.org
        
to approve or deny the request.




From jamesd at jml.net  Sun Mar 12 01:35:03 2006
From: jamesd at jml.net (James Davis)
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 00:35:03 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Post Requires Approval
In-Reply-To: <000001c6455c$29f297b0$2e01a8c0@HESED>
References: <000001c6455c$29f297b0$2e01a8c0@HESED>
Message-ID: <44136CB7.20002@jml.net>

bethelweb wrote:

> I created a list.  I sent this email to the list and I get the email 
> below.  I am the moderator, but I don't recall setting a password
> and the link that came with the email below requires a password.

Membership Management -> Membership list. Find yourself in the
membership list and flip the moderation tick box for yourself.

James

-- 
http://www.freecharity.org.uk/ - Free hosting for charities
http://jamesd.ukgeeks.co.uk/


From msapiro at value.net  Sun Mar 12 02:06:02 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 17:06:02 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Post Requires Approval
In-Reply-To: <000001c6455c$29f297b0$2e01a8c0@HESED>
Message-ID: <PC174020060311170602029656875b2a@msapiro>

Mike Dugan wrote:
>
>I created a list.  I sent this email to the list and I get the email 
>below.  I am the moderator, but I don't recall setting a password
>and the link that came with the email below requires a password.


This is the list admin password. The one you use to visit the web admin
interface.

If this is a brand new list, created perhaps via the web with you as
owner, you specified the password when you created it.

You <bethel01 at bethelassembly.org> are not a member of the list and
members have not been allowed to post. The owner is not a member by
default.

>As list administrator, your authorization is requested for the
>following mailing list posting:
>
>    List:    Bethelmen at bethelassembly.org
>    From:    bethel01 at bethelassembly.org
>    Subject: TEST - PLEASE IGNORE
>    Reason:  Post by non-member to a members-only list

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From bgmahesh at gmail.com  Sun Mar 12 05:04:59 2006
From: bgmahesh at gmail.com (BG Mahesh)
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 09:34:59 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Few email ids being dropped
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603110719470953c8c9a8a8@msapiro>
References: <5227ac5c0603110044i6d9cb385ode3b4a187861f17@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1740200603110719470953c8c9a8a8@msapiro>
Message-ID: <5227ac5c0603112004u4654d36bm89bd9b9f90801e2@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/11/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
>
> BG Mahesh wrote:
>
> >In the log file of mailman we see something like
> >
> >to="user1 at xyz.com, user2 at xyz.com, user3 at xyz.com, user4 at xyz.com"
>
>
> In which Mailman log file? What Mailman version?


I am sorry. I did not give the correct informaion.

Mailman is using sendmail and the entries that show all the 4 ids are from
the  sendmail log [of the mailman machine]
But in the sendmail log file of the recepient's domain, we see only ONE id.

Versions:
Mailman version: 2.1.7
Sendmail 8.13.5
Redhat Linux

I'm not aware of any Mailman log entries that look like that.
>
>
>
--
--
B.G. Mahesh


From msapiro at value.net  Sun Mar 12 05:48:16 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:48:16 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Few email ids being dropped
In-Reply-To: <5227ac5c0603112004u4654d36bm89bd9b9f90801e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603112048160031307296cf@msapiro>

BG Mahesh wrote:
>
>Mailman is using sendmail and the entries that show all the 4 ids are from
>the  sendmail log [of the mailman machine]
>But in the sendmail log file of the recepient's domain, we see only ONE id.
>
>Versions:
>Mailman version: 2.1.7
>Sendmail 8.13.5
>Redhat Linux


Then this appears to have nothing to do with Mailman. Mailman has given
the mail to sendmail with all 4 recipients and sendmail has logged all
4 recipients. The fact that the mail is only delivered to one of the
four seems to be strictly an issue between sendmail on the Mailman
machine and sendmail in the receiving domain.

You could try sending your own message (not from Mailman) with an MUA
or with sendmail directly from the Mailman machine to the same 4
recipients (one message with four recipients) and see what happens to
that.

If that message is delivered to all four, you could try setting

SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 10

in mm_cfg.py. 10 is just a guess - the default is 500. Or you could
enable personalization for the list or set

VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1

either of which will send a separate message to each recipient. But,
even if this solves your problem, it is just a workaround. The real
problem seems to be a sendmail issue.

I don't know where the best resources for sendmail support are, but try
<http://www.sendmail.org> and <news:comp.mail.sendmail>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From atann at gmx.net  Sun Mar 12 13:16:39 2006
From: atann at gmx.net (Andre Tann)
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:16:39 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Create new list fails - unknown virtual host...
Message-ID: <200603121316.39508@inter.netz>

Hello everyone,

when trying to create a new list through the web interface, Mailman 
says "unknown virtual host: mailsrv".
"mailsrv" is the name of the local machine. I can't find which 
setting is wrong - can someone give me a hint?

I have set in my mm_cfg.py:

[...]
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'domain.net'
DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'www.domain.net'
MTA = 'Postfix'
SMTPHOST = 'localhost'
SMTPPORT = '25'
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
VIRTUAL_HOSTS = {'mailsrv.domain.lan':'domain.lan'}
[...]


Where:

- the host where Mailman is running on is _not_ the MX for 
domain.net, but it is linked to the MX by a fetchmail link.

- mailsrv.domain.lan is the name of the host where Mailman is 
running on

- domain.lan is the local domain


What to do?

-- 
Andre Tann



From msapiro at value.net  Sun Mar 12 16:57:03 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 07:57:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Create new list fails - unknown virtual host...
In-Reply-To: <200603121316.39508@inter.netz>
Message-ID: <PC17402006031207570300157aa6e852@msapiro>

Andre Tann wrote:
>
>when trying to create a new list through the web interface, Mailman 
>says "unknown virtual host: mailsrv".
>"mailsrv" is the name of the local machine. I can't find which 
>setting is wrong - can someone give me a hint?
>
>I have set in my mm_cfg.py:
>
>[...]
>DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'domain.net'
>DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'www.domain.net'
>MTA = 'Postfix'
>SMTPHOST = 'localhost'
>SMTPPORT = '25'
>add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
>VIRTUAL_HOSTS = {'mailsrv.domain.lan':'domain.lan'}


The above line overrides all previous add_virtualhost lines. It sets
the VIRTUAL_HOSTS dictionary to have the one entry
{'mailsrv.domain.lan':'domain.lan'}, thus even the DEFAULT* entry is
gone. If you want it at all, it should probably be

add_virtualhost('mailsrv.domain.lan', 'domain.lan')

but see below.


>[...]
>
>
>Where:
>
>- the host where Mailman is running on is _not_ the MX for 
>domain.net, but it is linked to the MX by a fetchmail link.
>
>- mailsrv.domain.lan is the name of the host where Mailman is 
>running on
>
>- domain.lan is the local domain
>
>
>What to do?


Are you trying to support virtual hosting where lists in the
'www.domain.net' domain are separate from lists in the
'mailsrv.domain.lan' domain? It seems more likely, that you are just
trying to set things up so you can access and administer the same
lists from both inside and outside the lan.

The way to do this is to just have the one add_virtualhost for the
default names and set up your network so that the external names work
from inside.

In any case, your immediate issue may be that with your current or any
similar setup, you have to access the web create page as
http:/mailsrv.domain.lan/..., i.e., with a fully qualified domain
name, not as http:/mailsrv/...

I think what you want to do in mm_cfg.py is remove

VIRTUAL_HOSTS = {'mailsrv.domain.lan':'domain.lan'}

and add

VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW = Off

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Sun Mar 12 17:03:23 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:03:23 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Create new list fails - unknown virtual host...
In-Reply-To: <200603121316.39508@inter.netz>
References: <200603121316.39508@inter.netz>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603120803u77dafbf8i14a4f5907c29c163@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/12/06, Andre Tann <atann at gmx.net> wrote:
> add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
> VIRTUAL_HOSTS = {'mailsrv.domain.lan':'domain.lan'}

For what it's worth, I believe the second line above cancels the first
out. Also, I don't think you're using the whole virtual hosts stuff
properly, but I could very easily be wrong about this.

--
- Patrick Bogen


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Mon Mar 13 02:17:54 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 17:17:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running a script on subscribe/unsubscribe?
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060312171108.06701fe8@crimson-dragon.com>

I have a list where I have provided a number of web features for 
members. I have implemented a script to extract the email address and 
password for each user and then update the password files for Apache 
authentication for the list web directories. This script also does a 
lot of additional set up for these features.

I currently have this script set up as a cron job. I would prefer to 
have it run only when a user actually subscribes or unsubscribes.

I've looked through the FAQ and have not found anything that I 
thought was applicable to doing this. Does anyone have an idea on how 
this could be done?

Thanks in advance.


Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From jimpop at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 13 04:36:45 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 22:36:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] subscriber filters
In-Reply-To: <4410ECA0.8040500@yahoo.com>
References: <4410ECA0.8040500@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4414E8CD.5090707@yahoo.com>

Jim Popovitch wrote:
> Is there a way to require approval for all subscribers expect for those 
> emails/domains that match a certain pattern?
> 

Kudos to Mark Sapiro who saw the above request from me, went and 
researched it, and then developed a patch that worked perfectly.  All 
within a day or so.   THANKS!

-Jim P.




From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 13 05:46:29 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 20:46:29 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running a script on subscribe/unsubscribe?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060312171108.06701fe8@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603122046290706b06c60bf@msapiro>

Dragon wrote:

>I have a list where I have provided a number of web features for 
>members. I have implemented a script to extract the email address and 
>password for each user and then update the password files for Apache 
>authentication for the list web directories. This script also does a 
>lot of additional set up for these features.
>
>I currently have this script set up as a cron job. I would prefer to 
>have it run only when a user actually subscribes or unsubscribes.
>
>I've looked through the FAQ and have not found anything that I 
>thought was applicable to doing this. Does anyone have an idea on how 
>this could be done?


I have a couple of ideas depending on what the problems are with your
current method. If you want to eliminate the cron altogether, you'll
have to hook into Mailman at a fairly low level to catch everything
including things like bounce processing unsubscribes, address changes,
password changes, admin mass subscribe and unsubscribe, etc.

If you are willing the run the script via cron at some interval to pick
up the exceptional cases, and you're not too concerned about email
subscribe and unsubscribe, you could hook into the subscribe.html and
options.html templates to catch events from those forms. The downside
of this approach is aside from not getting everything, these may
trigger the script to run while the request is still waiting for a
confirmation. See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.048.htp>
for info on editing templates.

A better way to do this is to hook into the actual addNewMember(),
removeMember(), changeMemberAddress() and setMemberPassword() methods
in the member adaptor. Actually, if you use a modified
OldStyleMemberships.py as I suggest below, you only need to hook into
removeMember() and setMemberPassword() because changeMemberAddress()
calls removeMember() and addNewMember(), and addNewMember() calls
setMemberPassword().

To do this, assuming you are not already using a custom member adaptor,
first make a copy of Mailman/OldStyleMemberships.py at, for example,
Mailman/MyOldStyleMemberships.py. Then make a file named extend.py
containing the following from between the dashed lines.

--------------------------------------------------------
from Mailman import MyOldStyleMemberships

def extend(mlist):
    mlist._memberadaptor = \
        MyOldStyleMemberships.OldStyleMemberships(mlist)
--------------------------------------------------------

Then you can put the extend.py file in the lists/<listname>/ directory
for any list you want to use the MyOldStyleMemberships.py member
adaptor. Any list that has this extend.py in its lists/<listname>/
directory will use the MyOldStyleMemberships.py member adaptor which
you can then modify to add the necessary hooks without affecting other
lists and without your modifications subject to being overwritten if
Mailman is upgraded. The hooks will have to be written in Python, but
they can be as simple as spawning a process to run the existing script
or as complex as replacing the script entirely or something in between.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Mon Mar 13 07:49:29 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 22:49:29 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running a script on subscribe/unsubscribe?
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603122046290706b06c60bf@msapiro>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060312171108.06701fe8@crimson-dragon.com>
	<PC1740200603122046290706b06c60bf@msapiro>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060312223136.0584a368@crimson-dragon.com>

Mark Sapiro sent the message below at 08:46 PM 3/12/2006:
>Dragon wrote:
>
> >I have a list where I have provided a number of web features for
> >members. I have implemented a script to extract the email address and
> >password for each user and then update the password files for Apache
> >authentication for the list web directories. This script also does a
> >lot of additional set up for these features.
> >
> >I currently have this script set up as a cron job. I would prefer to
> >have it run only when a user actually subscribes or unsubscribes.
> >
> >I've looked through the FAQ and have not found anything that I
> >thought was applicable to doing this. Does anyone have an idea on how
> >this could be done?
>
>
>I have a couple of ideas depending on what the problems are with your
>current method.

It's not so much a problem per se as it is just that I want 
processing to be much more immediate so that when a member 
subscription is approved or a member unsubscribes or is removed from 
the list, the password update and other setup activities don't have 
to wait around for the next cron interval. (Which is currently set to 
run hourly).

The list this is running with is fairly small and it will remain that 
way as it is an invite only forum that I run for some esoteric stuff. 
So running cron on it is a bit of overkill because the list 
membership is quite static for long periods and if I don't have to 
run the script if there is no reason to do so, I would prefer that. 
(Of course, I wrote the script because doing all this manually is a 
pain in the rear...)

>If you want to eliminate the cron altogether, you'll
>have to hook into Mailman at a fairly low level to catch everything
>including things like bounce processing unsubscribes, address changes,
>password changes, admin mass subscribe and unsubscribe, etc.

Well as I said above, I am primarily interested in having the updates 
occur as soon as possible, particularly in the case of somebody 
leaving the list. I want to remove access to the web features I have 
set up and also remove their profiles as in my web system.

>If you are willing the run the script via cron at some interval to pick
>up the exceptional cases, and you're not too concerned about email
>subscribe and unsubscribe, you could hook into the subscribe.html and
>options.html templates to catch events from those forms. The downside
>of this approach is aside from not getting everything, these may
>trigger the script to run while the request is still waiting for a
>confirmation. See
><http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.048.htp>
>for info on editing templates.

Nah, this does not look very useful to me because this list requires 
moderator approval to subscribe.

>A better way to do this is to hook into the actual addNewMember(),
>removeMember(), changeMemberAddress() and setMemberPassword() methods
>in the member adaptor. Actually, if you use a modified
>OldStyleMemberships.py as I suggest below, you only need to hook into
>removeMember() and setMemberPassword() because changeMemberAddress()
>calls removeMember() and addNewMember(), and addNewMember() calls
>setMemberPassword().
>
>To do this, assuming you are not already using a custom member adaptor,

Nope, I am new to Python. I'm an old hack with Perl and C and PHP, 
but Python is something I have never fiddled with.

I'm certainly willing to give this a try though, I can usually wrap 
my head around a new programming language pretty quickly. Especially 
if I can get some good guidance over the thorny bits.

>first make a copy of Mailman/OldStyleMemberships.py at, for example,
>Mailman/MyOldStyleMemberships.py. Then make a file named extend.py
>containing the following from between the dashed lines.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>from Mailman import MyOldStyleMemberships
>
>def extend(mlist):
>     mlist._memberadaptor = \
>         MyOldStyleMemberships.OldStyleMemberships(mlist)
>--------------------------------------------------------
>
>Then you can put the extend.py file in the lists/<listname>/ directory
>for any list you want to use the MyOldStyleMemberships.py member
>adaptor. Any list that has this extend.py in its lists/<listname>/
>directory will use the MyOldStyleMemberships.py member adaptor which
>you can then modify to add the necessary hooks without affecting other
>lists and without your modifications subject to being overwritten if
>Mailman is upgraded. The hooks will have to be written in Python, but
>they can be as simple as spawning a process to run the existing script
>or as complex as replacing the script entirely or something in between.

OK, this looks like the right path for what I want to do. It would be 
nice if I can pass the affected e-mail address to my script so I can 
take action on only that e-mail address. The only thing I see as 
problematic is the case where a user changes the subscribed e-mail address.

But as my boss likes to say "If it were simple, anyone could do it".

Thanks for the help so far, I am sure I will have other questions as 
I figure this out.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From ges+lists at wingfoot.org  Mon Mar 13 13:48:00 2006
From: ges+lists at wingfoot.org (Glenn Sieb)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 07:48:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running a script on subscribe/unsubscribe?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060312223136.0584a368@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060312171108.06701fe8@crimson-dragon.com>	<PC1740200603122046290706b06c60bf@msapiro>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060312223136.0584a368@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <44156A00.6090001@wingfoot.org>

Dragon said the following on 3/13/2006 1:49 AM:
> It's not so much a problem per se as it is just that I want 
> processing to be much more immediate so that when a member 
> subscription is approved or a member unsubscribes or is removed from 
> the list, the password update and other setup activities don't have 
> to wait around for the next cron interval. (Which is currently set to 
> run hourly).

I set mine up like this:

http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.007.htp

It's in a cron job that runs make every 10 minutes. Since make only does
anything to files that have changed, it becomes a fairly lightweight
process--you could probably run it every 5 minutes or so, even.

Best,
--Glenn

-- 
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
          ~Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759


From maillist at contempt.rootchaos.za.net  Mon Mar 13 13:41:57 2006
From: maillist at contempt.rootchaos.za.net (RC)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 14:41:57 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman List Migration to Another Server
Message-ID: <E1FImNx-0004jS-U6@contempt.rootchaos.za.net>

Hi Guys

 

 

We are in the process of moving a bunch of mail lists from one server to
another. As far as I could read, one needs to copy the following directories
:-

 

/usr/local/mailman/lists

/usr/local/mailman/archives

 

 

I have copied those directories over to my new server and all appears to be
working, except that I cannot see any of the lists through the web
interface.

 

I have also modified the config.pck file though a utility called config_list
available in the /usr/local/mailman/bin directory to reflect the new server
URL addresses, but that doesn't seem to have done the trick for me.

 

 

Has anyone else experienced the same, and any possible solutions or ideas?

 

 

Thanx

 

RC

 

 

 

 

 

 



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 13 18:40:49 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 09:40:49 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman List Migration to Another Server
In-Reply-To: <E1FImNx-0004jS-U6@contempt.rootchaos.za.net>
Message-ID: <PC174020060313094049051526d3d454@msapiro>

RC wrote:
>
>I have copied those directories over to my new server and all appears to be
>working, except that I cannot see any of the lists through the web
>interface.


See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.029.htp>,
especially the part about 'existing lists'.


>I have also modified the config.pck file though a utility called config_list
>available in the /usr/local/mailman/bin directory to reflect the new server
>URL addresses, but that doesn't seem to have done the trick for me.


I don't know what you did with config_list (i.e., what attributes you
changed and what you changed them to - the critical one here is
web_page_url), but fix_url should do everything you need. In the
simplist case, it's just

/usr/local/mailman/bin/withlist -a -l -r fix_url

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From minter at lunenburg.org  Mon Mar 13 18:13:52 2006
From: minter at lunenburg.org (H. Wade Minter)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 12:13:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting up an open-posting list
Message-ID: <20060313120944.X34393@bunning.skiltech.com>

I'm trying to configure a Mailman 2.1.6 installation to have an 
open-posting list.  That is, mail from nonmembers should be immediately 
accepted and forwarded to the list.

In Privacy Options -> Sender Filters, I have generic_nonmember_action set 
to Accept.  I also have accept_these_nonmembers set to a regexp of "^.*", 
and all other _these_nonmembers options are blank.

However, nonmember mail keeps getting sent to the list moderator for 
approval.  Am I missing a setting to allow open posting?

Thanks,
Wade


From george at alink.co.za  Mon Mar 13 18:42:46 2006
From: george at alink.co.za (George Barnett)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 17:42:46 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] qrunners exiting
Message-ID: <4415AF16.9080805@alink.co.za>

Hello,

In our setup, we see a number of our queue runners exiting during their 
daily operation:

Mar 13 14:20:03 2006 (5122) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 5126, sig: None, sts: 1, class: BounceRunner, slice: 2/2) [restarting]
Mar 13 14:20:04 2006 (5218) BounceRunner qrunner started.
Mar 13 14:25:28 2006 (5122) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 5132, sig: None, sts: 1, class: OutgoingRunner, slice: 2/2) 
[restarting]
Mar 13 14:25:28 2006 (5314) OutgoingRunner qrunner started.
Mar 13 16:20:49 2006 (5122) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 5123, sig: None, sts: 1, class: ArchRunner, slice: 1/2) [restarting]
Mar 13 16:20:50 2006 (6619) ArchRunner qrunner started.

There are no errors in the error log when this happens, however, every 
now and then we see:

Mar 13 11:26:42 2006 (23030) Qrunner ArchRunner reached maximum restart 
limit of 10, not restarting.

At this stage, mail starts backing up in the archive queue and isn't 
delivered until mailman is restarted.  After having a dig through the 
archive, I added MAX_RESTARTS = 10000 to the config file in the hope 
that this would solve the problem, however it's continued to his this 
limit of 10.

Can anybody offer any help on why this may be happening or any debugs I 
can enable?

Thanks in advance,

George






-- 
George Barnett
Reality Engineer

m: (+44) 797 457 1868
e: george at alink.co.za

Perfection is finally attained, not when there is no longer
anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away.
		-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery


From Kucerar at hhmi.org  Mon Mar 13 18:45:25 2006
From: Kucerar at hhmi.org (Kucera, Rich)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 12:45:25 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman List Migration to Another Server
Message-ID: <0EDA935F3B86D04E8408C7BC487B8C0E0129D00E@hqexch3.hhmi.org>


Have you tried (from mailman install dir):

For i in `ls lists`
Do
bin/withlist -l -r fix_url $i --urlhost=newhost.do.main
done

HTH,
-Rich



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Mon Mar 13 18:59:46 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 11:59:46 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting up an open-posting list
In-Reply-To: <20060313120944.X34393@bunning.skiltech.com>
References: <20060313120944.X34393@bunning.skiltech.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603130959u7ac1ca42le153bcb8d431f722@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/13/06, H. Wade Minter <minter at lunenburg.org> wrote:
> In Privacy Options -> Sender Filters, I have generic_nonmember_action set
> to Accept.  I also have accept_these_nonmembers set to a regexp of "^.*",
> and all other _these_nonmembers options are blank.
It shouldn't be necessary to have both of those options set; one or
the other should suffice.

> approval.  Am I missing a setting to allow open posting?
You may want to make sure Emergency Moderate is turned off. I can't
think of anything else.


--
- Patrick Bogen


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Mon Mar 13 19:01:16 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 12:01:16 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] qrunners exiting
In-Reply-To: <4415AF16.9080805@alink.co.za>
References: <4415AF16.9080805@alink.co.za>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603131001g376762e6w1c113fdcaa62a610@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/13/06, George Barnett <george at alink.co.za> wrote:
> At this stage, mail starts backing up in the archive queue and isn't
> delivered until mailman is restarted.  After having a dig through the
> archive, I added MAX_RESTARTS = 10000 to the config file in the hope
> that this would solve the problem, however it's continued to his this
> limit of 10.
Which config file did you add this to (it should go in your
mm_cfg.py)? Did you restart the master qrunner after the change?


--
- Patrick Bogen


From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 13 19:01:43 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 10:01:43 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting up an open-posting list
In-Reply-To: <20060313120944.X34393@bunning.skiltech.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603131001430500a043f4ff@msapiro>

H. Wade Minter wrote:

>I'm trying to configure a Mailman 2.1.6 installation to have an 
>open-posting list.  That is, mail from nonmembers should be immediately 
>accepted and forwarded to the list.
>
>In Privacy Options -> Sender Filters, I have generic_nonmember_action set 
>to Accept.  I also have accept_these_nonmembers set to a regexp of "^.*", 


Either of the above should do it.


>and all other _these_nonmembers options are blank.
>
>However, nonmember mail keeps getting sent to the list moderator for 
>approval.  Am I missing a setting to allow open posting?


What is the reason the mail is being held? (Every held message has a
reason visible on the admindb interface and in 'moderation' messages
sent to the admin and in Mailman's vette log.)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dave at umiacs.umd.edu  Mon Mar 13 19:49:28 2006
From: dave at umiacs.umd.edu (Dave Stern)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 13:49:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] renaming lists
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.61.0603131341160.26541@reticle.umiacs.umd.edu>

We have a number of departments with similarly-sounding lists as well as
some that replicate others. To streamline and simplify, I intend to rename
some lists. The FAQ describe how to move and redirect lists but this isn't
quite what I want. In some cases, some lists will swap names (ie ListX
is renamed to ListY and ListY is renamed to listX so web redirect wont
work. OTOH, it's not an issue since the web interface is just used by
the few list admins who've already agreed to new names, web paths, perhaps
even resetting their admin passwords). Also none of the  lists have
archives.

With that in mind, I'm hoping I can just swap their config.pck files
(after turning off sendmail and qrunner).  Is this doable?

Thanks

  =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-  generated by /dev/dave -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
  David Stern                                    University of Maryland
            Institute for Advanced Computer Studies


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Mon Mar 13 20:00:41 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 11:00:41 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] renaming lists
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.61.0603131341160.26541@reticle.umiacs.umd.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.61.0603131341160.26541@reticle.umiacs.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060313105549.05ed1240@crimson-dragon.com>

Dave Stern wrote:
>We have a number of departments with similarly-sounding lists as well as
>some that replicate others. To streamline and simplify, I intend to rename
>some lists. The FAQ describe how to move and redirect lists but this isn't
>quite what I want. In some cases, some lists will swap names (ie ListX
>is renamed to ListY and ListY is renamed to listX so web redirect wont
>work. OTOH, it's not an issue since the web interface is just used by
>the few list admins who've already agreed to new names, web paths, perhaps
>even resetting their admin passwords). Also none of the  lists have
>archives.
>
>With that in mind, I'm hoping I can just swap their config.pck files
>(after turning off sendmail and qrunner).  Is this doable?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

I'm sure more knowledgeable folks will correct me if I am wrong, but 
after looking at what is in the config.pck file using dumpdb, it 
seems that you could swap the files and then just go in and edit the 
list specific stuff using the web interface.

The list specific stuff are the subject header, digest and message 
header and footer, list info, goodbye message and a few other things. 
So this looks like it could be pretty simple to make it happen.



Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Mon Mar 13 20:03:33 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 11:03:33 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] renaming lists
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.61.0603131341160.26541@reticle.umiacs.umd.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.61.0603131341160.26541@reticle.umiacs.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060313110146.05ed0f20@crimson-dragon.com>

Dave Stern sent the message below at 10:49 3/13/2006:
>We have a number of departments with similarly-sounding lists as well as
>some that replicate others. To streamline and simplify, I intend to rename
>some lists. The FAQ describe how to move and redirect lists but this isn't
>quite what I want. In some cases, some lists will swap names (ie ListX
>is renamed to ListY and ListY is renamed to listX so web redirect wont
>work. OTOH, it's not an issue since the web interface is just used by
>the few list admins who've already agreed to new names, web paths, perhaps
>even resetting their admin passwords). Also none of the  lists have
>archives.
>
>With that in mind, I'm hoping I can just swap their config.pck files
>(after turning off sendmail and qrunner).  Is this doable?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Oh yeah, one further thought while we are on this subject...

You may want to consider using entirely new list names because it is 
just about certain that your users are going to get confused and try 
to post to the wrong list.

Even using new list names, expect there to be a lot of user issues 
with the transition.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 13 20:07:58 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 11:07:58 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] qrunners exiting
In-Reply-To: <4415AF16.9080805@alink.co.za>
Message-ID: <PC174020060313110758071824a13448@msapiro>

George Barnett wrote:
>
>At this stage, mail starts backing up in the archive queue and isn't 
>delivered until mailman is restarted.  After having a dig through the 
>archive, I added MAX_RESTARTS = 10000 to the config file in the hope 
>that this would solve the problem, however it's continued to his this 
>limit of 10.
>
>Can anybody offer any help on why this may be happening or any debugs I 
>can enable?


MAX_RESTARTS = 10 is set locally in mailmanctl AFTER it imports mm_cfg
(and it doesn't reference mm_cfg.MAX_RESTARTS), so setting it in
mm_cfg.py won't do anything. You have to change it in mailmanctl.

Your log entries (e.g.)

>Mar 13 14:25:28 2006 (5122) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
>(pid: 5132, sig: None, sts: 1, class: OutgoingRunner, slice: 2/2) 
>[restarting]


say the runner exited with exit status 1 and no signal caught. They
don't do this on their own without writing an 'error' log entry. In
this case, there "should be" something like

  child process leaked thru: OutgoingRunner

in the error log if OutgoingRunner called exit(1), but some runners
never call exit.

>Can anybody offer any help on why this may be happening or any debugs I 
>can enable?


There are no debugs you can turn on or off. You have to add your own.

I don't know what's happening here if there aren't any messages in the
'error' log. Just a guess, but possibly you are hitting some OS limit
on process memory or something like that. Have you checked your OS
logs?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 13 20:59:08 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 11:59:08 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] renaming lists
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060313105549.05ed1240@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603131159080390354679ce@msapiro>

Dragon wrote:

>Dave Stern wrote:
>>We have a number of departments with similarly-sounding lists as well as
>>some that replicate others. To streamline and simplify, I intend to rename
>>some lists. The FAQ describe how to move and redirect lists but this isn't
>>quite what I want. In some cases, some lists will swap names (ie ListX
>>is renamed to ListY and ListY is renamed to listX so web redirect wont
>>work. OTOH, it's not an issue since the web interface is just used by
>>the few list admins who've already agreed to new names, web paths, perhaps
>>even resetting their admin passwords). Also none of the  lists have
>>archives.
>>
>>With that in mind, I'm hoping I can just swap their config.pck files
>>(after turning off sendmail and qrunner).  Is this doable?
>---------------- End original message. ---------------------
>
>I'm sure more knowledgeable folks will correct me if I am wrong, but 
>after looking at what is in the config.pck file using dumpdb, it 
>seems that you could swap the files and then just go in and edit the 
>list specific stuff using the web interface.


Essentially correct, but you want to swap directory names because you
want the requests and pending and digest.mbox and all to stay with the
list, and there's only one listname specific thing that needs to be
changed.

rename the directories - e.g.

mv lists/listy lists/temp_no_conflict_name
mv lists/listx lists/Listy
mv lists/temp_no_conflict_name lists/listx

Then go to the web admin for ListX and change it's real_name to ListY
and so on for all lists.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 13 21:24:03 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 12:24:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] renaming lists
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603131159080390354679ce@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC174020060313122403062524a133b4@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

>mv lists/listx lists/Listy

That should be 'listy' not 'Listy'. The directory names are lower case
even though the real_name attribute can be mixed case.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From george at alink.co.za  Mon Mar 13 22:31:24 2006
From: george at alink.co.za (George Barnett)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 21:31:24 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] qrunners exiting
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060313110758071824a13448@msapiro>
References: <PC174020060313110758071824a13448@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4415E4AC.1090902@alink.co.za>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

> MAX_RESTARTS = 10 is set locally in mailmanctl AFTER it imports mm_cfg
> (and it doesn't reference mm_cfg.MAX_RESTARTS), so setting it in
> mm_cfg.py won't do anything. You have to change it in mailmanctl.

I realised this after I sent the email.  I've made the config change - 
going to see how it helps.


> say the runner exited with exit status 1 and no signal caught. They
> don't do this on their own without writing an 'error' log entry. In
> this case, there "should be" something like
> 
>   child process leaked thru: OutgoingRunner
> 
> in the error log if OutgoingRunner called exit(1), but some runners
> never call exit.

Alas, there isn't anything in the error log.  Does it make a difference 
that I have multiple queue runners running?  Eg 2 Arch runner, 2 
outgoing runners, etc.

> I don't know what's happening here if there aren't any messages in the
> 'error' log. Just a guess, but possibly you are hitting some OS limit
> on process memory or something like that. Have you checked your OS
> logs?

I haven't had a look yet - I'll do that in the morning and make sure 
nothing is there.

Thanks for your advice,

George



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 13 22:49:11 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 13:49:11 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] qrunners exiting
In-Reply-To: <4415E4AC.1090902@alink.co.za>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603131349110703ec7b70ea@msapiro>

George Barnett wrote:
>
>Alas, there isn't anything in the error log.  Does it make a difference 
>that I have multiple queue runners running?  Eg 2 Arch runner, 2 
>outgoing runners, etc.

This should be fine as long as the number of runners for any queue is a
power of 2 (1, 2, 4, etc).

The qrunner log messages you quoted in the OP look OK from the multiple
slices standpoint.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 13 22:59:07 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 13:59:07 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running a script on subscribe/unsubscribe?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060312223136.0584a368@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603131359070609ec7b7088@msapiro>

Dragon wrote:
>
>I'm certainly willing to give this a try though, I can usually wrap 
>my head around a new programming language pretty quickly. Especially 
>if I can get some good guidance over the thorny bits.


As good as we're capable of :-)


>OK, this looks like the right path for what I want to do. It would be 
>nice if I can pass the affected e-mail address to my script so I can 
>take action on only that e-mail address. The only thing I see as 
>problematic is the case where a user changes the subscribed e-mail address.


It should be very straightforward to fork a script with command line
arguments for things like listname, email and password, and either
wait for the script to finish or let it go on its own.

The address change shouldn't be a problem because internally it is
actually an unsubscribe of the old address and a subscribe of the new
except that after subscribing the new, the options from the old are
applied to the new.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dandrews at visi.com  Mon Mar 13 23:02:11 2006
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 16:02:11 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Renaming or Deleting a List
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20060313160103.0289b130@visi.com>

Hi:

Is it possible to rename a list -- a major rename that is, not just 
case change that is mentioned in web interface?

If not, how do you delete a list -- and save or transfer its members?

Thanks!

Dave



David Andrews and white cane Harry.




From pdbogen at gmail.com  Mon Mar 13 23:28:33 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 16:28:33 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Renaming or Deleting a List
In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060313160103.0289b130@visi.com>
References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060313160103.0289b130@visi.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603131428y30dcf9dn43a09e74d39b6130@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/13/06, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
> Is it possible to rename a list -- a major rename that is, not just
> case change that is mentioned in web interface?
This was *just* discusses on the list. Please see:

http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/msg37663.html
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/msg37662.html


--
- Patrick Bogen


From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 13 23:47:52 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 14:47:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Renaming or Deleting a List
In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060313160103.0289b130@visi.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603131447520968684af21c@msapiro>

David Andrews wrote:
>
>Is it possible to rename a list -- a major rename that is, not just 
>case change that is mentioned in web interface?


If you have command line access to the server and sufficient
permission, all you need do is rename the list specific directories
and maybe one file and one or two symlinks. You need to change the
listname in

lists/listname/

and if there are archives

archives/private/listname/
archives/private/listname.mbox/
archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox

and if the archive is public, the following one or two symlinks

archives/public/listname
archives/public/listname.mbox

Then as mentioned in the posts Patrick pointed at, change the lists
real_name attribute via the web interface.

It also is better if you rebuild the archives from the
archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox file with the bin/arch
command line tool if there are links to scrubbed attachments in the
archived messages.

>If not, how do you delete a list -- and save or transfer its members?

bin/rmlist
bin/config_list
bin/list_members

or see
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.026.htp>
and
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.062.htp>

Also, if

OWNERS_CAN_DELETE_THEIR_OWN_LISTS = Yes

in mm_cfg.py, there is a link on the admin pages to delete the list,
but this doesn't save or backup anything.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From gail.lists at verizon.net  Tue Mar 14 01:24:20 2006
From: gail.lists at verizon.net (Gail)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 19:24:20 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Thanks, and some archive questions now.
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060311154036017186038f4f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <C03B7763.A78ED%gail.lists@verizon.net>

First, thanks very much for your prompt answers Mark!  the more I read and
hear about this system the more convinced I am this will be a great solution
for us.  You mentioned editing messages may be a bit cumbersome, but these
new questions of mine will give you an idea of my tolerance for pain and
cumbersomeness perhaps! <G>  its not my first choice of course, but after
some serious torture with software lately, nothing I can imagine would be
worse than what I've dealt with already!

Right now, our archives consist of about 2500 old digests stored on my
laptop, obviously not good!  we have earlier archives stored on a website,
but in a system we could no longer continue to update due to some tech
reasons that aren't really clear to me.  We've recently found a system to
use for these archives, but it requires that I manually post each one to
that system after running them through an editing system to disable
addresses etc so I've got a lot of work in front of me.  What occurs to me
is, that if we convert to Mailman, we'd then have three separate archive
systems, so, I'm wondering if there's a way to eliminate at least one of
those. 

Even if I had to manually post them to Mailman, I'd far rather do that
rather than save to this other system so at least they'd all be in one
place.  My question is, is it possible to somehow get old digests into the
system?  And if so, is there a way to write a script to do that in some
automated way?  

Also, would I get better, searchable archives out of somehow posting each of
the messages separately and letting the system create new digests?

And, if that's the case, could I do this update in a second list with only
one or two dummy members, then somehow merge these archives with the 'real'
list we'd be running concurrently while all these old messages were being
processed into the system as I'm describing?

I also wonder if some or all of this rather labor intensive work I'm talking
about could be handled by some sort of scripts?

I don't need to know HOW to do it now, it would go right over my head, but
I'm wondering if I should hold off updating this other system for now and
wait until we've converted, so really all I want to know is if these things
are somehow possible?

Thanks!
Gail




From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 14 02:34:41 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 17:34:41 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Thanks, and some archive questions now.
In-Reply-To: <C03B7763.A78ED%gail.lists@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <PC17402006031317344108750660d654@msapiro>

Gail wrote:

>My question is, is it possible to somehow get old digests into the
>system?  And if so, is there a way to write a script to do that in some
>automated way?  


It is trivially easy to import messages into a Mailman archive with the
bin/arch command line tool IF and ONLY IF the messages are in unix
mbox format - i.e., a flat file with each message preceded by a line
of the form

>From sender at example.com Mon Mar 13 17:01:06 2006

followed immediately by the message headers, a blank line, the message
body and a blank line.

If the messages aren't in mbox format to begin with, they need somehoy
to be put in that format. There is some info at
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.036.htp>
that may be helpful.


>Also, would I get better, searchable archives out of somehow posting each of
>the messages separately and letting the system create new digests?


What do you have in your existing digests?

Mailman's pipermail archives are indexed by month (by default) and each
month has indices by date, subject, author and thread. The thread
index depends on messages having a Message-Id: header and replies
having a References: or a In-Reply-To: header. If you don't have this
information in the mbox file, the thread index will be the same as the
date index.

You still want individual messages rather than digests because
otherwise, the archive indices will be full of messages with subject
"... digest issue # ...".

Also, Mailman archives are not searchable within Mailman. There are
patches for this, and if the archives are public, they can be searched
with google if google indexes them. Go to
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py> and search for archive.
Some of the returned articles are relevant.


>And, if that's the case, could I do this update in a second list with only
>one or two dummy members, then somehow merge these archives with the 'real'
>list we'd be running concurrently while all these old messages were being
>processed into the system as I'm describing?


If you need to create archives by posting messages one at a time, then
yes, you can do it on a list with no members, and the archiving
process will build the mbox file which can later be put together with
the one for the live list. See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.003.htp>
which discusses removing posts from the archive, but the same
information applies to adding to an archive.

Basically, you just put the two mbox files together onto one and
rebuild the archive. There are some issues with message numbering
which are discussed in the FAQ, but they shouldn't be to significant
with a fairly new archive.


>I also wonder if some or all of this rather labor intensive work I'm talking
>about could be handled by some sort of scripts?


Again, depending on what information you have, you can script the
creation of a mbox file, and you can script a list posting process
too, but this shouldn't be necessary because posting a message to a
list is not going to add anything that couldn't be programmatically
added to create a mbox file.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jimpop at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 14 06:36:07 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 00:36:07 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mischief: Login failure with private rosters
Message-ID: <44165647.3010806@yahoo.com>

Hi all,

I keep seeing "Login failure with private rosters" errors in my mischief 
logs.  Some are accepted as being valid, but others seem to be unrelated 
to private archives and more likely to be failure to login to 
unsubscribe or change options.  I haven't directly asked any of the 
users, however I have some inside knowledge on what a few of the users 
are doing since I know their email addresses are changing.  That 
knowledge, coupled with the fact that their particular list only has 
public archives, makes me believe there may be an error in the log 
message in Mailman v2.1.7.  The mischief logs don't identify which list 
the login failure occurs with, so it is difficult to know for sure.  Has 
anyone else experienced similar?

-Jim P.


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 14 07:02:12 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 22:02:12 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mischief: Login failure with private rosters
In-Reply-To: <44165647.3010806@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603132202120687684af0db@msapiro>

Jim Popovitch wrote:
>
>I keep seeing "Login failure with private rosters" errors in my mischief 
>logs.  Some are accepted as being valid, but others seem to be unrelated 
>to private archives and more likely to be failure to login to 
>unsubscribe or change options.  I haven't directly asked any of the 
>users, however I have some inside knowledge on what a few of the users 
>are doing since I know their email addresses are changing.  That 
>knowledge, coupled with the fact that their particular list only has 
>public archives, makes me believe there may be an error in the log 
>message in Mailman v2.1.7.  The mischief logs don't identify which list 
>the login failure occurs with, so it is difficult to know for sure.  Has 
>anyone else experienced similar?


This is a normal message. It probably should specify the list but it
doesn't. It has nothing to do with public/private archives. It has to
do with whether the membership roster is available to anyone or not.
I.e., the Privacy options...->Subscription rules->private_roster
setting. If the roster is not available to anyone, we are concerned
about invalid login attempts to the options page.

If, for example, we just said 'invalid password' to the user who
attempts to login with a bad password, someone could use that response
to verify whether or not an address was subscribed to the list, thus
at least partially defeating the privacy of the membership list, so we
just tell the user the login is unsuccessful, but not why, and we log
the event in 'mischief' in case it is really part of an attempt to
probe the membership list.

In most cases, these log entries are really legitimate options page
login attempts by members who forgot or mistyped their password.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jimpop at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 14 15:19:56 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 09:19:56 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mischief: Login failure with private rosters
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603132202120687684af0db@msapiro>
References: <PC1740200603132202120687684af0db@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4416D10C.9080602@yahoo.com>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> This is a normal message. It probably should specify the list but it
> doesn't. It has nothing to do with public/private archives. It has to
> do with whether the membership roster is available to anyone or not.
> I.e., the Privacy options...->Subscription rules->private_roster
> setting. If the roster is not available to anyone, we are concerned
> about invalid login attempts to the options page.
> 
> If, for example, we just said 'invalid password' to the user who
> attempts to login with a bad password, someone could use that response
> to verify whether or not an address was subscribed to the list, thus
> at least partially defeating the privacy of the membership list, so we
> just tell the user the login is unsuccessful, but not why, and we log
> the event in 'mischief' in case it is really part of an attempt to
> probe the membership list.
> 
> In most cases, these log entries are really legitimate options page
> login attempts by members who forgot or mistyped their password.

Hi Mark,

Thank you.  I see the error was on my lack of clearly reading the error 
message.  ;-)

Thanks,

-Jim P.



From maillist at contempt.rootchaos.za.net  Tue Mar 14 15:24:24 2006
From: maillist at contempt.rootchaos.za.net (RC)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 16:24:24 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman List Migration to Another Server
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060313094049051526d3d454@msapiro>
Message-ID: <E1FJASm-0006LN-TZ@contempt.rootchaos.za.net>

Hi Mark

Thanks for the resolution on the problem.

The command you specified below worked.





Regards

RC

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net] 
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 7:41 PM
To: maillist at contempt.rootchaos.za.net; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman List Migration to Another Server

RC wrote:
>
>I have copied those directories over to my new server and all appears to be
>working, except that I cannot see any of the lists through the web
>interface.


See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.029.htp>,
especially the part about 'existing lists'.


>I have also modified the config.pck file though a utility called
config_list
>available in the /usr/local/mailman/bin directory to reflect the new server
>URL addresses, but that doesn't seem to have done the trick for me.


I don't know what you did with config_list (i.e., what attributes you
changed and what you changed them to - the critical one here is
web_page_url), but fix_url should do everything you need. In the
simplist case, it's just

/usr/local/mailman/bin/withlist -a -l -r fix_url

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From gregory_laroche at yahoo.fr  Tue Mar 14 17:11:10 2006
From: gregory_laroche at yahoo.fr (gregory LAROCHE)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 17:11:10 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] failed to post to all
Message-ID: <20060314161110.51975.qmail@web26904.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

The inscription process for the users of my list is
OK. When an approved user post a message to this
moderat list, I can see the post in the administrative
interface. But When I want to accept it, no messages
is send to the all users ? Did I miss something ?
Regards


	

	
		
___________________________________________________________________________ 
Nouveau : t?l?phonez moins cher avec Yahoo! Messenger ! D?couvez les tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international.
T?l?chargez sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 14 17:37:03 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 08:37:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] failed to post to all
In-Reply-To: <20060314161110.51975.qmail@web26904.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC174020060314083703001595786472@msapiro>

gregory LAROCHE wrote:

>The inscription process for the users of my list is
>OK. When an approved user post a message to this
>moderat list, I can see the post in the administrative
>interface. But When I want to accept it, no messages
>is send to the all users ? Did I miss something ?

>Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py

In particular
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.014.htp>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From ssrjazz at gmail.com  Tue Mar 14 23:06:47 2006
From: ssrjazz at gmail.com (Jeff Schoby)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 16:06:47 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need help with rss patch....
Message-ID: <d2e2567a0603141406i157d501g6b5864c276caa256@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone out there who has this or another rss solution integrated/working
with mailman care to send me a line offlist?

I'm having issues. :)

Thanks


From Alan.Nicoll at xerox.com  Wed Mar 15 01:09:21 2006
From: Alan.Nicoll at xerox.com (Nicoll, Alan)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 16:09:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to migrate a 300 list majordomo to Mailman?
Message-ID: <84284AE8CCDB834296BC86FBE7C389BD019930AB@usaesm1mf01.na.xerox.net>

I've searched the FAQ and Archive but found only 2 mentions of majordomo
and neither have anything to do with my situation.
 
I have 300 very small lists in majordomo (that is giving me problems)
that I'm trying to migrate to Mailman.  I, obviously, don't want to
manually recreate those lists.  They are all announce only; my bug
tracking system uses them to send notifications to subsystem owners and
developers.  I run on Solaris 9 and the lists are ascii files with CR
delimited email addresses in them.  We have Mailman installed and
working and I've read the FAQ on how to create announce only lists so I
think I can configure them correctly once I get them created.
 
Is there a way to import the lists into Mailman?
 
Alan E (Nick) Nicoll
DocuSP Problem System Administrator
Xerox Corporation
Xerox Centre Drive, MS: ESC1-615
El Segundo, CA 90245
Phone 310 333-5081  Internal 8*823-5081
Fax 310 333-6898
alan.nicoll at xerox.com 
 
XEROX
Technology   Document Management   Consulting Services
 
www.xerox.com <http://www.xerox.com/>  
 


From msapiro at value.net  Wed Mar 15 01:43:52 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 16:43:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to migrate a 300 list majordomo to Mailman?
In-Reply-To: <84284AE8CCDB834296BC86FBE7C389BD019930AB@usaesm1mf01.na.xerox.net>
Message-ID: <PC17402006031416435202818edb12ad@msapiro>

Nicoll, Alan wrote:
> 
>I have 300 very small lists in majordomo (that is giving me problems)
>that I'm trying to migrate to Mailman.  I, obviously, don't want to
>manually recreate those lists.  They are all announce only; my bug
>tracking system uses them to send notifications to subsystem owners and
>developers.  I run on Solaris 9 and the lists are ascii files with CR
>delimited email addresses in them.  We have Mailman installed and
>working and I've read the FAQ on how to create announce only lists so I
>think I can configure them correctly once I get them created.
> 
>Is there a way to import the lists into Mailman?


I would create one list and tweak it via the web interface to get it
the way I wanted and then write it's configuration to a file with the
bin/config_list Mailman command line tool.

Then I would create a shell or similar script to loop over the list
names and run the following

bin/newlist        to create the list
bin/config_list    to configure it from the file created above, and
bin/add_members    to import the members from the list's <CR> delimited,
                   ascii email address file.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jfranklin at project-wombat.org  Wed Mar 15 06:15:19 2006
From: jfranklin at project-wombat.org (John Franklin)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 23:15:19 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can the default message be changed?
Message-ID: <188135C8-7606-4423-AF86-1A731B912BF4@project-wombat.org>

I have a list which is configured to aggressively filter out certain  
types of message encodings and content, partially using the spam  
filtering capability. (We have a LOT of people using very old command- 
line software to read e-mail, so we keep anything out which can't be  
viewed that way.) Since list subscriptions are open, and we allow  
contributions from non-subscribers after moderator approval, there  
are a lot of posts from non-technical people who have no clue that  
there is even a difference between types of e-mail message, let alone  
that it might be desirable to use the simpler kinds. Although we send  
out instructions including a link to the excellent page at
http://www.expita.com/nomime.html
to subscribers, not everyone who posts has subscribed, and I fear  
that most subscribers don't read the message in the first place. The  
upshot of this is that I receive many messages from people who have  
received "filter rule match" rejection notices, asking what to do. Is  
there any way to provide a custom message in place of "filter rule  
match" for spam filter rejections?

-John Franklin


From msapiro at value.net  Wed Mar 15 07:02:20 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 22:02:20 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can the default message be changed?
In-Reply-To: <188135C8-7606-4423-AF86-1A731B912BF4@project-wombat.org>
Message-ID: <PC17402006031422022001567cdef4b0@msapiro>

John Franklin wrote:
>The  
>upshot of this is that I receive many messages from people who have  
>received "filter rule match" rejection notices, asking what to do. Is  
>there any way to provide a custom message in place of "filter rule  
>match" for spam filter rejections?


There is no config option for this. There is a related RFE
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1109139&group_id=103&atid=350103>,
but it isn't yet implemented.

You have two choices.

Modify Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py to change the message, or

Change the action on the filter rule(s) to Hold and have the moderator
reject the message and provide a more explanitory reason with the
reject.

Depending on your situation, the first method may not even be feasable
for you, and it will be global in any case, and the second method is
burdensome at best.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From ryan at coopwood.net  Wed Mar 15 15:56:17 2006
From: ryan at coopwood.net (Ryan Lewis)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 08:56:17 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Embedded/Externally Linked Images as Attachments
Message-ID: <619FC060-9C78-4938-9181-95C66BFB4F92@coopwood.net>

Hello All.

My company uses and has used Mailman for quite some times now to send  
out Mailing lists.

We recently upgraded our server and in turn upgraded to 2.1.7 of  
Mailman.

Everything seems to be as swell as ever for our PC subscribers.

However for subscribers using Apple Mail and MS Entourage the images  
embedded in our eMails are no longer working "perfectly",  While in  
Apple Mail they all show up inline like always they are also repeated  
at the bottom of the eMail as if they were attachments and not  
external links.  I've viewed the source and see the external links  
replaced with "src=cid:par1blahblah at blah.com"  is there a way to get  
around this? A setting in the admin or setup perhaps?

Is this even Mailman doing this? I can't decide for 100% that it is,  
and am not having much luck finding anything addressing this in the  
documentation.

Am I overlooking anything?

And Entourage - which I am less worried about because my boss doesn't  
use it ;) - looks like it is scrubbing the HTML all together.

Any ideas on any of this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Ryan




----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail was checked by the TecInfo Content Scanning Service
for potentially harmful content, such as viruses or Spam
For more information, call 800.863.5415 or visit www.tecinfo.net
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From msapiro at value.net  Wed Mar 15 16:52:02 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 07:52:02 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Embedded/Externally Linked Images as Attachments
In-Reply-To: <619FC060-9C78-4938-9181-95C66BFB4F92@coopwood.net>
Message-ID: <PC17402006031507520202031c3e14cd@msapiro>

Ryan Lewis wrote:
>
>We recently upgraded our server and in turn upgraded to 2.1.7 of  
>Mailman.
>
>Everything seems to be as swell as ever for our PC subscribers.
>
>However for subscribers using Apple Mail and MS Entourage the images  
>embedded in our eMails are no longer working "perfectly",  While in  
>Apple Mail they all show up inline like always they are also repeated  
>at the bottom of the eMail as if they were attachments and not  
>external links.  I've viewed the source and see the external links  
>replaced with "src=cid:par1blahblah at blah.com"  is there a way to get  
>around this? A setting in the admin or setup perhaps?


This specific issue ("src=cid:par1blahblah at blah.com") appears to be
that the MUA (email client) you use to create the mail is downloading
the externally linked file and attaching it to the mail as part of a
(probably) multipart/related message or message part containing the
HTML with references to the attached content.

Have you changed what you use to post the mail?

>Is this even Mailman doing this? I can't decide for 100% that it is,  
>and am not having much luck finding anything addressing this in the  
>documentation.

If you are adding msg_header or msg_footer to the mail, see
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.039.htp>.

If content filtering is off and you are not adding headers or footers,
Mailman shouldn't be making any changes to the MIME structure of what
you post.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From ge at linuxbox.org  Wed Mar 15 19:32:54 2006
From: ge at linuxbox.org (Gadi Evron)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 20:32:54 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] relaying spam using mailing lists
Message-ID: <44185DD6.4080901@linuxbox.org>

A friend of mine just wrote about what happened to an ezmlm mailing list 
he runs, and how it was recently used to relay spam (quoted below).

All mailing list managers return bounces of some sort, for 
subscriptions, unsubscriptions, moderation, etc. (*configuration 
dependent*), some just quote the subject line though, as an example.

Do we risk blocking by black lists for allowing mailing list bounces?

Do we in blacklists block spam in bounces?

We all see spam bouncing off our lists, how do we distinguish what's 
what? Especially if these are bounces themselves?

How would mailman be vulnerable, if at all?

Thanks go to Ellen from spamcop for the help.

-----
People tend to think of SPAMers are a bunch of monkeys, i.e. know 
nothing, utilize off the shelf tools, and completely un-imaginative. I 
tend to differ, especially after what I saw happen?

It began about 3 months ago, our ezmlm mailing list was starting to get 
a lot of bounces, and when I say a lot, I mean a lot. The number quickly 
risen to more than 100 per hour, all of them bounces caused by malformed 
ezmlm requests. These bounces weren?t ordinary, their body was composed 
of a SPAMed email.

You would ask your self, why would someone use ezmlm to bounce emails? 
well you take our security oriented mailing-list, which has its 
credibility (both the IP address of the mail server?s credibility and 
the email address?s credibility) and you utilize it for your spamming needs.

In addition, ezmlm will bounce almost any email it receives without 
thinking, and not only bounce it, but also include the entire incoming 
email, in our case the SPAM content. Making it a nice to use SPAM relay.

After several weeks, our mail server was starting to get blocked by 
SpamCop, and others which regard bouncing email SPAM as regular SPAM. 
Several days ago, we decided to put an end to this shenanigan, we 
patched - yes changed the source code, as ezmlm doesn?t support the 
suppression of bouncing emails - ezmlm to stop it from sending back 
emails whenever something bad has happened, and low and behold a few 
hours after the change was put into place, our ezmlm was no longer being 
used to relay SPAM.

The only option I can conclude from this is that the SPAMers use 
some-kind of technique (maybe even ?SPAM? themselves) to detect whether 
it is still useful to use your SPAM relay for their needs, in this case 
our ezmlm configuration, and when it is no longer useful, they 
?conserve? their bandwidth and move on to their next target.
-----
http://blogs.securiteam.com/index.php/archives/353

	Gadi.


From heather at madrone.com  Wed Mar 15 20:35:33 2006
From: heather at madrone.com (Heather Madrone)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:35:33 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] relaying spam using mailing lists
In-Reply-To: <44185DD6.4080901@linuxbox.org>
References: <44185DD6.4080901@linuxbox.org>
Message-ID: <p062309b9c03e1aa3d5f3@[192.168.123.138]>

At 8:32 PM +0200 3/15/06, Gadi Evron wrote:
>A friend of mine just wrote about what happened to an ezmlm mailing list
>he runs, and how it was recently used to relay spam (quoted below).
>
>All mailing list managers return bounces of some sort, for
>subscriptions, unsubscriptions, moderation, etc. (*configuration
>dependent*), some just quote the subject line though, as an example.

My installation of Mailman doesn't.  I have spam filters that make
sure that poorly-formed requests don't get to Mailman.

>Do we risk blocking by black lists for allowing mailing list bounces?

At this point in time, it's fairly net-unfriendly to run a mail reflector
that isn't protected by spam filters.  If anyone uses your mail reflector
to propagate spam, you'll have a hard time getting your domain
unblocked.

>We all see spam bouncing off our lists, how do we distinguish what's
>what? Especially if these are bounces themselves?
>
>How would mailman be vulnerable, if at all?

Don't relay mail to Mailman that you don't want Mailman to receive.
Install good spam filters and tune your MDA so that it won't deliver
scattershot messages to Mailman.

-- 
Thank you,

Heather Madrone <heather at madrone.com>
http://www.madrone.com


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Mar 15 21:09:33 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 21:09:33 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] relaying spam using mailing lists
In-Reply-To: <p062309b9c03e1aa3d5f3@[192.168.123.138]>
References: <44185DD6.4080901@linuxbox.org>
	<p062309b9c03e1aa3d5f3@[192.168.123.138]>
Message-ID: <p0620070bc03e2318653a@[10.1.79.246]>

At 11:35 AM -0800 2006-03-15, Heather Madrone wrote:

>  Don't relay mail to Mailman that you don't want Mailman to receive.
>  Install good spam filters and tune your MDA so that it won't deliver
>  scattershot messages to Mailman.

	We've gone through this discussion before.  There are lots of 
decisions that are made inside of Mailman that the MTA cannot 
possibly know anything about.


	If you configure your Mailman installation so that it never 
rejects a message or ever sends back any kind of notice that the 
message has been held for moderation (so that you don't ever generate 
any blowback), then you will seriously impact the level of services 
that you can provide your subscribers.  At that point, you have to 
seriously question whether or not it's worth running a mailing list 
at all.

	Moreover, I'm pretty sure that you will be running a pretty 
highly hacked version of Mailman, because there are some things you 
can turn off, but there are others that I don't believe you can.  At 
that point, you're not likely to be able to get a lot of help on this 
mailing list.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From ge at linuxbox.org  Wed Mar 15 21:13:07 2006
From: ge at linuxbox.org (Gadi Evron)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 22:13:07 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] relaying spam using mailing lists
In-Reply-To: <p0620070bc03e2318653a@[10.1.79.246]>
References: <44185DD6.4080901@linuxbox.org>
	<p062309b9c03e1aa3d5f3@[192.168.123.138]>
	<p0620070bc03e2318653a@[10.1.79.246]>
Message-ID: <44187553.9070103@linuxbox.org>

Brad Knowles wrote:
> At 11:35 AM -0800 2006-03-15, Heather Madrone wrote:
> 
>>  Don't relay mail to Mailman that you don't want Mailman to receive.
>>  Install good spam filters and tune your MDA so that it won't deliver
>>  scattershot messages to Mailman.
> 
> 
>     We've gone through this discussion before.  There are lots of 
> decisions that are made inside of Mailman that the MTA cannot possibly 
> know anything about.

Further, I honestly believe that despite that extra moderation work, 
using spam filters for mailing lists is a bad idea.. at least in my 
experience and to my preference.

	Gadi.


From demonveen at gmail.com  Thu Mar 16 05:45:52 2006
From: demonveen at gmail.com (daniel trejo)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 22:45:52 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] hello, question about mailheaders
Message-ID: <997503340603152045m1c488db1o@mail.gmail.com>

hello everybody!.I'm a new  mailman user, I'm installing it for a mailing
list on my university (UNAM). Until now I haven't had any problems with my
configuration, but my boss (teacher) wants me to put a banner on every
mail posted on  the list. The banner must be a jpeg image and it should be
loaded from my server. I thought of putting a <src image> label on my header
in regular delivery configuration, but it seems that < is  not allowed, the
symbol &lt; appears instead; i've tried everything  " / and other
characters before the < character but nothing seems to work.
p.d i put no on my html to text checkbox

If someone answers this , I will be very grateful .

thanks everybody


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar 16 07:58:07 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 22:58:07 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] hello, question about mailheaders
In-Reply-To: <997503340603152045m1c488db1o@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC174020060315225807004604b508d5@msapiro>

daniel trejo wrote:

>hello everybody!.I'm a new  mailman user, I'm installing it for a mailing
>list on my university (UNAM). Until now I haven't had any problems with my
>configuration, but my boss (teacher) wants me to put a banner on every
>mail posted on  the list. The banner must be a jpeg image and it should be
>loaded from my server. I thought of putting a <src image> label on my header
>in regular delivery configuration, but it seems that < is  not allowed, the
>symbol &lt; appears instead; i've tried everything  " / and other
>characters before the < character but nothing seems to work.
>p.d i put no on my html to text checkbox


You can see the FAQ at
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.052.htp>
which explains

why you aren't able to add these characters, and

how you can get around that restriction

But it won't do you any good because even if you add something to the
header that looks like an HTML <img src=...> tag, it is in a
text/plain part of the message and will not be rendered as HTML.

See the thread containing the post at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-March/049865.html>
for more on this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From Daniel.Hawker at animal.co.uk  Thu Mar 16 11:09:46 2006
From: Daniel.Hawker at animal.co.uk (Daniel Hawker)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:09:46 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Totally unmoderated user???
Message-ID: <405C9133F90F64479D822B1001D86AE071BEEF@itchy.animalkingdom.local>


Hi All,

I manage a small (200 users or so) unmoderated Mailman list. So far so
good.

I have naturally set a limit to which all posts are limited by post-size
(in my case about 50k). This works fine and any messages sent to the
list that are above the limit, are held for moderation.

I would like to have a couple of my members to be able to be completely
unmoderated and hence be able to bypass this limit. I trust they won't
send anything truly silly, however they send out regular information
packs (around 2-300k) that obviously get caught by the system.

Is this possible in anyway, or do I have to make them in essence a
moderator for the list??? They can then release their own posts.

TIA

Dan



From ggonzalez at ca2l.com  Thu Mar 16 10:53:32 2006
From: ggonzalez at ca2l.com (Gabriel Gonzalez)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:53:32 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] from header
Message-ID: <003c01c648df$7c58d060$dd64a8c0@gabi.intranet.ca2l.com>

Hello,
Anyone could tell me if it?s possible preserve completely the e-mail sender
(from header) when I forward a mail?. Now, I only can see the name, but not
e-mail. My mailman configuration do this:

De: mylist-bounces at mydomain.com [mailto:mylist-bounces at mydomain.com]
<mailto:%5Bmailto:mylist-bounces at ca2l.com%5D>  En nombre de Gabriel
Enviado el: jueves, 16 de marzo de 2006 10:37
Para: mylist at mydomain.com
Asunto: [mylist] example

and I need a header like this one:

De: mylist-bounces at mydomain.com [mailto:mylist-bounces at mydomain.com]
<mailto:%5Bmailto:mylist-bounces at ca2l.com%5D>  En nombre de Gabriel
[malito:mymail at mydomain.com]
Enviado el: jueves, 16 de marzo de 2006 10:37
Para: mylist at mydomain.com
Asunto: [mylist] example


Thanks!




From pdbogen at gmail.com  Thu Mar 16 15:01:53 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:01:53 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Totally unmoderated user???
In-Reply-To: <405C9133F90F64479D822B1001D86AE071BEEF@itchy.animalkingdom.local>
References: <405C9133F90F64479D822B1001D86AE071BEEF@itchy.animalkingdom.local>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603160601w7bd09395vc34938bed1aaab41@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/16/06, Daniel Hawker <Daniel.Hawker at animal.co.uk> wrote:
> I have naturally set a limit to which all posts are limited by post-size
> (in my case about 50k). This works fine and any messages sent to the
> list that are above the limit, are held for moderation.
How, exactly, have you accomplished this?

--
- Patrick Bogen


From Daniel.Hawker at animal.co.uk  Thu Mar 16 16:22:55 2006
From: Daniel.Hawker at animal.co.uk (Daniel Hawker)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 15:22:55 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Totally unmoderated user???
Message-ID: <405C9133F90F64479D822B1001D86AE071BEF0@itchy.animalkingdom.local>


On 3/16/06, Daniel Hawker <Daniel.Hawker at animal.co.uk> wrote:
> I have naturally set a limit to which all posts are limited by 
> post-size (in my case about 50k). This works fine and any messages 
> sent to the list that are above the limit, are held for moderation.
How, exactly, have you accomplished this?

--
- Patrick Bogen

Hi Patrick,

Ummm, I'm not sure. I only manage 3 very low traffic mailman lists and
as such am not that knowledgeable, but please find below (what I hink
are) the salient prefs.

I configured the system a while back, but now as its becoming more busy
(traffic-wise) it'd be useful if some members could almost
self-moderate, but transparently without their or my intervention. 

## Configs ##

Set a limit for the message size ppl are allowed to post
(General Options -> Maximum length in kilobytes of a message body) I've
just checked, in my instance it's set to 40.

I've then set the sending filter to not moderate new member postings,
and to hold moderated member posts.
(Privacy Options -> Sender Filters -> By default, should new list member
postings be moderated - No)
(Privacy Options -> Sender Filters -> Action to take when a moderated
member posts to the list - Hold)

All my members moderation bits are set to Off
(Membership Management -> Membership List -> Additional Member Tasks ->
Set everyones moderation bit... - Off)

Think thats it. To be honest, I can't believe anything apart from the
limit and moderation bit actually does anything that would affect a
standard post from a member. All non-member postings are sent for
moderation also, just in case a member sends something by accident from
a different email address than they are subscribed with.

HTH

Dan


From Kucerar at hhmi.org  Thu Mar 16 16:55:14 2006
From: Kucerar at hhmi.org (Kucera, Rich)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:55:14 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Web UI Look and Feel Customization,
	including SSIs
Message-ID: <0EDA935F3B86D04E8408C7BC487B8C0E0129D2F5@hqexch3.hhmi.org>

A worst-case web ui integration with mailman, involving dynamic SSIs,
implemented on v2.1.7.  

 

1)  HTML files in mailman/templates/en were placed in a directory on the www
server to 

be slugged with the ssi template.   Outermost HTML, Head and body tags
removed.

 

1.1)  the archtoc.html,  archtocentry.html,  archliststart.html,
archlistend.html,  

archidxentry.html files were *not* included in the files to be slugged,  as
they are 

already pieces of the archive templating system.

 

1.2)  A file called "empty.html" containing just a comment was placed over
there and 

in the local template/en directory as well,  to receive an empty shell.

 

2)  all of the files are slugged on the web server with the SSI
directives(prior to 

being pulled over HTTP to activate the SSIs).

 

autoslug-part1.bsh

------------------------------------------

 

#!/usr/bin/bash

# usage: pass in name of template directory for processing

 

if [ $1 ]

then

 

echo ""

echo "Using template directory: $1"

echo ""

 

for i in `ls content`

do

cp $1/top-half.html $i

cat content/$i >> $i

cat $1/bottom-half.html >> $i

echo "created $i"

done

 

else

 

echo "usage: pass in name of template directory for processing"

 

fi

 

2.1) The SSI source template has been split in two pieces,  and concated to
the 

exported mailman templates.

 

3) Pull the prepared mailman template slugged with look and feel over HTTP:

 

 

Autoslug-part2.bsh

-----------------------------------

 

 

#!/bin/bash

# usage: run in the mailman template directory

 

for i in `ls *.html`

do

python http-get-file.py http://server.do.main/mailman-template/ $i > $i

echo "http copied $i"

done

 

echo "restoring saved splits"

cp archidxfoot.html-savesplit archidxfoot.html

cp archidxhead.html-savesplit archidxhead.html

 

 

http-get-file.py

----------------------------

 

import urllib

import sys

opener = urllib.FancyURLopener({})

f = opener.open(sys.argv[1]+sys.argv[2])

the_template = f.read()

print(the_template)

 

 

 

3.1)   The result of these scripts are placed in the mailman/template/en
directory and 

these have had all their SSIs completed.

 

3.2)   archidxfoot.html and archidxhead.html need to have their tops and
bottoms cut 

off,  respectively.  These are saved in -savesplit files to avoid having to
redo this 

manually every time a tiny revision is made and autoslug-part2 is re-run.
This is the 

meaning of the "restoring saved splits" lines.

 

3.3)   Empty.html needs to be manually split into empty-top.html and 

empty-bottom.html.  Also an empty-top-no-sidebar.html was created from
empty-top.html 

for the mailman admin pages (they are too wide in places to accommodate a
sidedar).

 

3.4)  The rest of the templates remain as is.

 

 

Minor modifications to htmlformat.py and HTMLFormatter.py are all that
remain.  

Empty-top uses python Template class for the title tag-for example at the top
of 

empty-top.html <TITLE>$list_name Info Page</TITLE>,  the modified Format()
function 

will replace $list_name with the name of the list.  

 

4)  The changes are marked with ##RJKMod 

 

*htmlformat.py*

 

###At the top of file

 

#RJKmod:

from string import Template

 

 

 

###In class Document

 

class Document(Container):

 

    title = None

    language = None

    bgcolor = mm_cfg.WEB_BG_COLOR

    suppress_head = 0

 

    #RJKmod: Use custom top-half and bottom-half files

    use_custom_template = 1

 

    ...

 

###The modified Document.Format() function:

 

 

 

    def Format(self, indent=0, **kws):

        charset = 'us-ascii'

        if self.language:

            charset = Utils.GetCharSet(self.language)

        output = ['Content-Type: text/html; charset=%s\n' % charset]

        if not self.suppress_head:

            if not self.use_custom_template:  #RJKmod

                kws.setdefault('bgcolor', self.bgcolor)

 

                 ...distribution code...

 

                output.append('%s<BODY %s>' % (tab, SPACE.join(quals)))

            else: #RJKmod

                try:

                    f_templ =
file('/usr/local/mailman/templates/en/empty-top.html')

                    if self.title.count( 'Administrati') or self.title.count(
'Edit'):

                        f_templ = 

file('/usr/local/mailman/templates/en/empty-top-no-sidebar.html')

                    templ_content = f_templ.read()

                    t = Template( templ_content )

                    output.append( t.safe_substitute( list_name = self.title
) )

                finally:

                    f_templ.close() 

 

        # Always do this...

        output.append(Container.Format(self, indent))

        if not self.suppress_head:

            if not self.use_custom_template:  #RJKmod

                output.append('%s</BODY>' % tab)

                output.append('%s</HTML>' % tab)

            else: #RJKmod

                try:

                    f_templ = 

file('/usr/local/mailman/templates/en/empty-bottom.html')

                    templ_content = f_templ.read()

                    output.append( templ_content )

                finally:

                    f_templ.close()

        return NL.join(output)

 

###Modified Logo function to remove logo

def MailmanLogo():

    t = Table(border=0, width='100%')

## RJKmod

    return t

 

  *HTMLFormatter.py*

 

### Remove the footer

 

class HTMLFormatter:

    def GetMailmanFooter(self):

##RJKmod

            return Container('')

 

The documented setting of DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST and

DEFAULT_URL_HOST needs to be made in mm_cfg.

 

HTH,

-Rich

 



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar 16 17:05:48 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:05:48 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Totally unmoderated user???
In-Reply-To: <405C9133F90F64479D822B1001D86AE071BEEF@itchy.animalkingdom.local>
Message-ID: <PC17402006031608054805005474c764@msapiro>

Daniel Hawker wrote:
>
>I would like to have a couple of my members to be able to be completely
>unmoderated and hence be able to bypass this limit. I trust they won't
>send anything truly silly, however they send out regular information
>packs (around 2-300k) that obviously get caught by the system.


There is no way to do this via list configuration. You can set a
moderator password if there isn't one already, and give the password
to these people. If you don't want them to receive regular
'moderation' notices, you don't have to add them to the moderator list.

Once these people have the password, they can approve their own posts
or they can pre-approve them by putting an Approved: header or first
body line in the post they send to the list.

Of course, they can also approve/reject/discard any other pending
moderator requests via the admindb interface.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From ge at linuxbox.org  Thu Mar 16 17:12:45 2006
From: ge at linuxbox.org (Gadi Evron)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:12:45 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Totally unmoderated user???
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006031608054805005474c764@msapiro>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0603161007270.23282-100000@linuxbox.org>

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Daniel Hawker wrote:
> >
> >I would like to have a couple of my members to be able to be completely
> >unmoderated and hence be able to bypass this limit. I trust they won't
> >send anything truly silly, however they send out regular information
> >packs (around 2-300k) that obviously get caught by the system.
> 
> 
> There is no way to do this via list configuration. You can set a
> moderator password if there isn't one already, and give the password
> to these people. If you don't want them to receive regular
> 'moderation' notices, you don't have to add them to the moderator list.
> 
> Once these people have the password, they can approve their own posts
> or they can pre-approve them by putting an Approved: header or first
> body line in the post they send to the list.
> 
> Of course, they can also approve/reject/discard any other pending
> moderator requests via the admindb interface.

I've been looking for a way to do this for a while, what I came up with
using current Mailman functionality is bascally moderating everyone
except who you want to be able to talk. In most cases a broken solution,
but hey - it works.

One could argue though that letting anything be automatically unmoderated
on a moderated list is a bad idea, as email spoofing is one of the main
vulnerabilities in Mailman, as well as.. erm.. SMTP? :)

In other words, I agree with Mark but it is *possible* if you are ready
for some pain.

	Gadi.

> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/ge%40linuxbox.org
> 
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
> 



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar 16 17:15:53 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:15:53 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] from header
In-Reply-To: <003c01c648df$7c58d060$dd64a8c0@gabi.intranet.ca2l.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006031608155305468fbd3757@msapiro>

Gabriel Gonzalez wrote:

>Hello,
>Anyone could tell me if it's possible preserve completely the e-mail send'er
>(from header) when I forward a mail?. Now, I only can see the name, but not
>e-mail. My mailman configuration do this:

Mailman is not changing the From: header. It is putting the
mylist-bounces address in other headers and your MUA (mail client -
Outlook?) is just not showing you the address in From:

Look at the message source if you can and you'll see.

See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq02.003.htp>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From Daniel.Hawker at animal.co.uk  Thu Mar 16 17:24:03 2006
From: Daniel.Hawker at animal.co.uk (Daniel Hawker)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 16:24:03 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Totally unmoderated user???
Message-ID: <405C9133F90F64479D822B1001D86AE071BEF2@itchy.animalkingdom.local>


There is no way to do this via list configuration. You can set a
moderator password if there isn't one already, and give the password to
these people. If you don't want them to receive regular 'moderation'
notices, you don't have to add them to the moderator list.

Once these people have the password, they can approve their own posts or
they can pre-approve them by putting an Approved: header or first body
line in the post they send to the list.

Of course, they can also approve/reject/discard any other pending
moderator requests via the admindb interface.

--

Hi Mark,

Ah well nevermind, was just wondering if it was possible. I'll take a
look and do some testing with letting (the at the time 2 or 3 members
I'd like to be able to do this) moderate themselves, but to be honest it
looks like I'll just leave it as is and see how it goes.

Thanks

Dan


From Daniel.Hawker at animal.co.uk  Thu Mar 16 17:28:17 2006
From: Daniel.Hawker at animal.co.uk (Daniel Hawker)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 16:28:17 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Totally unmoderated user???
Message-ID: <405C9133F90F64479D822B1001D86AE071BEF3@itchy.animalkingdom.local>

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Gadi Evron [mailto:ge at linuxbox.org] 
Sent: 16 March 2006 16:13
To: Mark Sapiro
Cc: Daniel Hawker; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Totally unmoderated user???

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Daniel Hawker wrote:
> >
> >I would like to have a couple of my members to be able to be 
> >completely unmoderated and hence be able to bypass this limit. I 
> >trust they won't send anything truly silly, however they send out 
> >regular information packs (around 2-300k) that obviously get caught
by the system.
> 
> 
> There is no way to do this via list configuration. You can set a 
> moderator password if there isn't one already, and give the password 
> to these people. If you don't want them to receive regular 
> 'moderation' notices, you don't have to add them to the moderator
list.
> 
> Once these people have the password, they can approve their own posts 
> or they can pre-approve them by putting an Approved: header or first 
> body line in the post they send to the list.
> 
> Of course, they can also approve/reject/discard any other pending 
> moderator requests via the admindb interface.

I've been looking for a way to do this for a while, what I came up with
using current Mailman functionality is bascally moderating everyone
except who you want to be able to talk. In most cases a broken solution,
but hey - it works.

One could argue though that letting anything be automatically
unmoderated on a moderated list is a bad idea, as email spoofing is one
of the main vulnerabilities in Mailman, as well as.. erm.. SMTP? :)

In other words, I agree with Mark but it is *possible* if you are ready
for some pain.

	Gadi.

> -- 

Hi Gadi,

Thanks for that, it seems like I'll have to either live with it as it or
experiment with having the one or two members self moderating.

Thanks again for your help.

Dan


From Jeff.Edwards at ccci.org  Thu Mar 16 19:01:11 2006
From: Jeff.Edwards at ccci.org (Jeff Edwards)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 13:01:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscribe
Message-ID: <C03F1217.1CE4%Jeff.Edwards@ccci.org>




From stupidmail4me at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 16 21:49:51 2006
From: stupidmail4me at yahoo.com (stupidmail4me)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:49:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Forged from headers and non existent lists
Message-ID: <20060316204951.32720.qmail@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

My site is getting a lot of spam sent to my lists.
They are being sent from unknown people using forged
from headers. Mailman then sends an email to these
forged from headers telling them so and so list
doesn't exist. Most of these forged from headers
aren't real addresses, so there begins loops of
mailman trying to send out a message, and their email
servers telling mine that address doesn't exist.

Is there an option in Mailman to just disregard
messages sent to lists that don't exist? I don't want
to send a message informing them that the list doesn't
exist, I just want Mailman to ignore it. Is this
possible?

-James

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From hun at n-dimensional.de  Thu Mar 16 22:19:22 2006
From: hun at n-dimensional.de (Hans Ulrich Niedermann)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 22:19:22 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Forged from headers and non existent lists
In-Reply-To: <20060316204951.32720.qmail@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	(stupidmail4me@yahoo.com's message of "Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:49:51 -0800
	(PST)")
References: <20060316204951.32720.qmail@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <86oe06m6jp.fsf@n-dimensional.de>

stupidmail4me <stupidmail4me at yahoo.com> writes:

> My site is getting a lot of spam sent to my lists.
> They are being sent from unknown people using forged
> from headers. Mailman then sends an email to these
> forged from headers telling them so and so list
> doesn't exist. Most of these forged from headers
> aren't real addresses, so there begins loops of
> mailman trying to send out a message, and their email
> servers telling mine that address doesn't exist.
>
> Is there an option in Mailman to just disregard
> messages sent to lists that don't exist? I don't want
> to send a message informing them that the list doesn't
> exist, I just want Mailman to ignore it. Is this
> possible?

Why does Mailman receive those mails in the first place?

There should be no valid alias for those non-existing lists and the
MTA thus should not accept those mails at all. If the MTA just returns
a SMTP error "no such user", no additional mails are generated.

Gru?,

Hans Ulrich Niedermann


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar 16 22:36:55 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 13:36:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Forged from headers and non existent lists
In-Reply-To: <20060316204951.32720.qmail@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603161336550203e6702222@msapiro>

stupidmail4me wrote:

>My site is getting a lot of spam sent to my lists.
>They are being sent from unknown people using forged
>from headers. Mailman then sends an email to these
>forged from headers telling them so and so list
>doesn't exist.


Actually, Mailman doesn't send this mail. The Mailman 'post' wrapper
which is invoked by your MTA writes an error message 'post script,
list not found: %(listname)s' to stderr and exits with status = 1.

Your MTA is then returning an undeliverable message to the sender.

But, as Hans points out in another reply, only mail to valid list
addresses should be delivered to any Mailman wrapper in the first
place.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From heather at madrone.com  Thu Mar 16 22:46:52 2006
From: heather at madrone.com (Heather Madrone)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 13:46:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Forged from headers and non existent lists
In-Reply-To: <20060316204951.32720.qmail@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060316204951.32720.qmail@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06230942c03f8b694489@[192.168.123.138]>

At 12:49 PM -0800 3/16/06, stupidmail4me wrote:
>My site is getting a lot of spam sent to my lists.
>They are being sent from unknown people using forged
>from headers. Mailman then sends an email to these
>forged from headers telling them so and so list
>doesn't exist. Most of these forged from headers
>aren't real addresses, so there begins loops of
>mailman trying to send out a message, and their email
>servers telling mine that address doesn't exist.
>
>Is there an option in Mailman to just disregard
>messages sent to lists that don't exist? I don't want
>to send a message informing them that the list doesn't
>exist, I just want Mailman to ignore it. Is this
>possible?

Others might disagree, but I don't think that MTA ought to
deliver messages to list (or list administration) addresses that
don't exist.  The MTA should refuse to accept delivery of
such messages.

I also think that judicious pre-Mailman use of spam filters
cuts way down on the amount of junk that Mailman has to
process.  I've been running one of my lists since 1996 (it
has existed since 1989), and the admin addresses for that
list gets hundreds of spam attempts every single day.  After
some tinkering, I've managed to adjust the filters so they
keep out almost all the spam while letting through almost all
the legitimate requests (I do check manually to make sure that
no valid requests get dumped by mistake).

Bouncing spam is, ironically enough, one of the best ways
to get branded a spammer by certain ISPs.  I think we have
a duty to at least try to weed out the spam and not have our
autoresponders make the problem worse by trying to bounce
the stuff.

-- 
Heather Madrone  (heather at madrone.com)  http://www.madrone.com

"Everything I never wanted to know I learned from the Internet."
    -- Morgayn Madrone, age 17



From tderouin at gmail.com  Fri Mar 17 02:35:13 2006
From: tderouin at gmail.com (Travis Derouin)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 20:35:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] There currently are no publicly-advertised Mailman
	mailing lists
Message-ID: <631bbe190603161735x1b914c08o5aa49d3014a5259c@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I've been running a mailman list for about a year and the time has
come to switch servers. I've started off by setting up a new mailman
installation but have run into some problems. 1) Any list I create
through the command line bin/newlist isn't accessible through a web
browser (There's the No Such List error) and 2) Despite resetting the
site password and list creator password a few times, I can't create a
new list through a web browser.

I've tried editing data/sitelist.cfg and setting advertised =1 and
then using config_list to reset the list configuration. I've fiddled
with the DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST and DEFAULT_URL_HOST in mm_cfg.py and
poked around FAQs and documentation online for a long time. I've also
tried just tarring up the existing working mailman directory and
moving it over to the new machine, but alas, that had the same issue.
I tried setting up another installation on a different machine (all
machines are Red Hat Linux, Apache 2), same problem. bin/list_lists do
list the lists that were created from the command line. 
VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW is still set to On in Default.py.

I thought there might have been an issue with the hostname having a
uppercase letter in it, while the HTTP_HOST is all lower case, but I
recompiled using --with-mailhost and --with-urlhost to use the
lowercase name and still had the same problem, and have changed the
settings in mm_cfg.py and used add_virtualhost.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Travis


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 17 03:54:23 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 18:54:23 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] There currently are no publicly-advertised
	Mailmanmailing lists
In-Reply-To: <631bbe190603161735x1b914c08o5aa49d3014a5259c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006031618542304379ab5368c@msapiro>

Travis Derouin wrote:
>
>I've been running a mailman list for about a year and the time has
>come to switch servers. I've started off by setting up a new mailman
>installation but have run into some problems. 1) Any list I create
>through the command line bin/newlist isn't accessible through a web
>browser (There's the No Such List error) and 2) Despite resetting the
>site password and list creator password a few times, I can't create a
>new list through a web browser.


And what's the error message for that?


>I've tried editing data/sitelist.cfg and setting advertised =1 and
>then using config_list to reset the list configuration. I've fiddled
>with the DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST and DEFAULT_URL_HOST in mm_cfg.py and
>poked around FAQs and documentation online for a long time. I've also
>tried just tarring up the existing working mailman directory and
>moving it over to the new machine, but alas, that had the same issue.
>I tried setting up another installation on a different machine (all
>machines are Red Hat Linux, Apache 2), same problem. bin/list_lists do
>list the lists that were created from the command line. 
>VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW is still set to On in Default.py.
>
>I thought there might have been an issue with the hostname having a
>uppercase letter in it, while the HTTP_HOST is all lower case, but I
>recompiled using --with-mailhost and --with-urlhost to use the
>lowercase name and still had the same problem, and have changed the
>settings in mm_cfg.py and used add_virtualhost.
>
>Any suggestions would be appreciated.


Read this FAQ
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.029.htp>.
Do not overlook the section on "Existing versus new lists"

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From tderouin at gmail.com  Fri Mar 17 04:24:04 2006
From: tderouin at gmail.com (Travis Derouin)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 22:24:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] There currently are no publicly-advertised
	Mailmanmailing lists
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006031618542304379ab5368c@msapiro>
References: <631bbe190603161735x1b914c08o5aa49d3014a5259c@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC17402006031618542304379ab5368c@msapiro>
Message-ID: <631bbe190603161924j36f49463lff1476055f890c2e@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Mark,

I get the standard

   Error: You are not authorized to create new mailing lists

error when trying to create a new list through the browser, despite
setting the both the site password and list creator password to
something simple like abc123 with mmsitepass.

I did go through that FAQ a few times today, and tried out the
different suggestions. Even creating a new list from the command line
has the same problems after changing mm_cfg.py to include the 2
hostname specifications. It's odd because in my current installation
I'm just using the usual hostname for the server, with no virtual
hosts involved.

Do you have any debugging suggestions? Should I possibly add some
logging statements to listinfo.py at around line 104 and recompile ?

There doesn't seem to be any indicitive messages in the logs. Is there
also any reason why tarring up an existing working mailman
configuration and swapping hostnames/DNS records might not work
either?

Thanks a bunch,
Travis

On 3/16/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> Travis Derouin wrote:
> >
> >I've been running a mailman list for about a year and the time has
> >come to switch servers. I've started off by setting up a new mailman
> >installation but have run into some problems. 1) Any list I create
> >through the command line bin/newlist isn't accessible through a web
> >browser (There's the No Such List error) and 2) Despite resetting the
> >site password and list creator password a few times, I can't create a
> >new list through a web browser.
>
>
> And what's the error message for that?
>
>
> >I've tried editing data/sitelist.cfg and setting advertised =1 and
> >then using config_list to reset the list configuration. I've fiddled
> >with the DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST and DEFAULT_URL_HOST in mm_cfg.py and
> >poked around FAQs and documentation online for a long time. I've also
> >tried just tarring up the existing working mailman directory and
> >moving it over to the new machine, but alas, that had the same issue.
> >I tried setting up another installation on a different machine (all
> >machines are Red Hat Linux, Apache 2), same problem. bin/list_lists do
> >list the lists that were created from the command line.
> >VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW is still set to On in Default.py.
> >
> >I thought there might have been an issue with the hostname having a
> >uppercase letter in it, while the HTTP_HOST is all lower case, but I
> >recompiled using --with-mailhost and --with-urlhost to use the
> >lowercase name and still had the same problem, and have changed the
> >settings in mm_cfg.py and used add_virtualhost.
> >
> >Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
>
> Read this FAQ
> <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.029.htp>.
> Do not overlook the section on "Existing versus new lists"
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 17 05:13:18 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 20:13:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] There currently are no publicly-advertised
	Mailmanmailing lists
In-Reply-To: <631bbe190603161924j36f49463lff1476055f890c2e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006031620131809219f7d560b@msapiro>

Travis Derouin wrote:
>
>I get the standard
>
>   Error: You are not authorized to create new mailing lists
>
>error when trying to create a new list through the browser, despite
>setting the both the site password and list creator password to
>something simple like abc123 with mmsitepass.


You're not the first person to complain of this, but I don't have an
answer.


>I did go through that FAQ a few times today, and tried out the
>different suggestions. Even creating a new list from the command line
>has the same problems after changing mm_cfg.py to include the 2
>hostname specifications. It's odd because in my current installation
>I'm just using the usual hostname for the server, with no virtual
>hosts involved.


Did you run fix_url on your existing lists?


>Do you have any debugging suggestions? Should I possibly add some
>logging statements to listinfo.py at around line 104 and recompile ?


First run bin/dumpdb on a lists/listname/config.pck and see what the
value of the web_page_url attribute is.

Then, if the list is advertised and the host portion of the url you are
accessing the listinfo page with matches the host portion of
web_page_url, the list should appear on the listinfo overview.


>There doesn't seem to be any indicitive messages in the logs. Is there
>also any reason why tarring up an existing working mailman
>configuration and swapping hostnames/DNS records might not work
>either?


If DNS, etc. is changed so that the installation on the new host is
accessed with the same names as before, it should work as before.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From tderouin at gmail.com  Fri Mar 17 16:58:47 2006
From: tderouin at gmail.com (Travis Derouin)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 10:58:47 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] There currently are no publicly-advertised
	Mailmanmailing lists
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006031620131809219f7d560b@msapiro>
References: <631bbe190603161924j36f49463lff1476055f890c2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC17402006031620131809219f7d560b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <631bbe190603170758k82e32beud4a3fcb836237a32@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Mark,

> Did you run fix_url on your existing lists?

Yep, sure did.

> First run bin/dumpdb on a lists/listname/config.pck and see what the
> value of the web_page_url attribute is.
>
> Then, if the list is advertised and the host portion of the url you are
> accessing the listinfo page with matches the host portion of
> web_page_url, the list should appear on the listinfo overview.

It's the same, adverised is also set to 1.

It'd probably be worthwhile for me to debug this a bit. I notice that
any edits I make to /tmp/mailman-2.1.7/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py don't
show up in src/listinfo when I do a make clean, make , even when I
introduce syntax errors. Can you let me know how I can introduce some
debugging statements to get some more info on this problem? I can look
at the problem creating lists through the web too while I'm at it.

Thanks,
Travis


From Kucerar at hhmi.org  Fri Mar 17 17:39:53 2006
From: Kucerar at hhmi.org (Kucera, Rich)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 11:39:53 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] There currently are no
	publicly-advertisedMailmanmailing lists
Message-ID: <0EDA935F3B86D04E8408C7BC487B8C0E0129D43E@hqexch3.hhmi.org>

> when I do a make clean, make ,... 
> how I can introduce some debugging statements 

Didn't know we had to make...can't you just edit *.py in place,  and it'll
automatically compile to .pyc and use you changes?  That's what I do.

Fix_url would've been my first guess,  but I guess you did that.

Check_perms?

HTH,
-Rich



From tderouin at gmail.com  Fri Mar 17 18:45:33 2006
From: tderouin at gmail.com (Travis Derouin)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 12:45:33 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] There currently are no
	publicly-advertisedMailmanmailing lists
In-Reply-To: <0EDA935F3B86D04E8408C7BC487B8C0E0129D43E@hqexch3.hhmi.org>
References: <0EDA935F3B86D04E8408C7BC487B8C0E0129D43E@hqexch3.hhmi.org>
Message-ID: <631bbe190603170945i24ebdec6m96b1436d4b14bfc0@mail.gmail.com>

Yep, I tried that. I even removed
/tmp/mailman-2.1.7Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py and did a `make clean` which
deleted src/listinfo, but when i did a `make`, src/listinfo
reappeared, even though listinfo.py was deleted. So I must be missing
something somewhere.

When I do a `make install` the changes I put in
/tmp/mailman-2.1.7/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py are copied over to
/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py, so I'm not sure why
/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo doesn't reflect them.

I did run check_perms, no errors found.

Travis


On 3/17/06, Kucera, Rich <Kucerar at hhmi.org> wrote:
> > when I do a make clean, make ,...
> > how I can introduce some debugging statements
>
> Didn't know we had to make...can't you just edit *.py in place,  and it'll
> automatically compile to .pyc and use you changes?  That's what I do.
>
> Fix_url would've been my first guess,  but I guess you did that.
>
> Check_perms?
>
> HTH,
> -Rich
>
>


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 17 18:59:54 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 09:59:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] There currently are no publicly-advertised
	Mailmanmailing lists
In-Reply-To: <631bbe190603170758k82e32beud4a3fcb836237a32@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603170959540078ccc08d64@msapiro>

Travis Derouin wrote:
>
>It'd probably be worthwhile for me to debug this a bit. I notice that
>any edits I make to /tmp/mailman-2.1.7/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py don't
>show up in src/listinfo when I do a make clean, make , even when I
>introduce syntax errors.


To move python from the unpack/build directory to the installation
directory, you do

make install

but as rich mentions in another post, just edit the Python in the
install directory and don't bother with make at all.


>Can you let me know how I can introduce some
>debugging statements to get some more info on this problem? I can look
>at the problem creating lists through the web too while I'm at it.


I suspect this is all going to turn out to be a web browser issue.

Here's what I'd look at first.

Check the host name in the heading of the listinfo page. I.e., hostname
in "hostname Mailing lists'. Is this the same as the URL hostname.

Then maybe try this patch which will write some stuff to a Mailman log
named 'debug'.

--- Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py 2005-08-26 19:40:15.000000000 -0700
+++ Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py 2006-03-17 09:27:43.718750000 -0800
@@ -65,6 +65,7 @@
 def listinfo_overview(msg=''):
     # Present the general listinfo overview
     hostname = Utils.get_domain()
+    syslog('debug','Hostname from get_domain() = %s', hostname)
     # Set up the document and assign it the correct language.  The
only one we
     # know about at the moment is the server's default.
     doc = Document()
@@ -85,6 +86,8 @@

     for name in listnames:
         mlist = MailList.MailList(name, lock=0)
+        syslog('debug', 'listname = %s; web_page_url= %s',
+               name, mlist.web_page_url)
         if mlist.advertised:
             if mm_cfg.VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW and \
                    mlist.web_page_url.find(hostname) == -1:


-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 17 19:09:53 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 10:09:53 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] There currently are
	nopublicly-advertisedMailmanmailing lists
In-Reply-To: <631bbe190603170945i24ebdec6m96b1436d4b14bfc0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603171009530875ccc09080@msapiro>

Travis Derouin wrote:

>Yep, I tried that. I even removed
>/tmp/mailman-2.1.7Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py and did a `make clean` which
>deleted src/listinfo, but when i did a `make`, src/listinfo
>reappeared, even though listinfo.py was deleted. So I must be missing
>something somewhere.


Yes.


>When I do a `make install` the changes I put in
>/tmp/mailman-2.1.7/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py are copied over to
>/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py, so I'm not sure why
>/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo doesn't reflect them.


make compiles src/listinfo.c into src/listinfo. make install copies
src/listinfo to /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo. This is just the
wrapper that checks for proper group before invoking
/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py which is the python script
that actually does the work.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From kwerle at pobox.com  Fri Mar 17 18:56:32 2006
From: kwerle at pobox.com (Kurt Werle)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 09:56:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Admin email on errors?
Message-ID: <35383.66.236.113.201.1142618192.squirrel@mail.shiftmanager.net>

I have twice got the following error:
---
Mar 14 22:41:58 2006 mailmanctl(54): The master qrunner lock could not be
acquired.  It appears as though there is
a stale master qrunner lock.  Try re-running mailmanctl with the -s flag.
Mar 14 22:41:58 2006 mailmanctl(54):
Mar 14 22:56:02 2006 mailmanctl(48): The master qrunner lock could not be
acquired, because it appears as if some
process on some other host may have acquired it.  We can't test for stale
locks across host boundaries, so you'll have to do this manually.  Or, if you
know the lock is stale, re-run mailmanctl with the -s flag.
---

and I can live with that.  What is a drag is the fact that it takes a user
telling me "hey, why isn't list mail going out?" to find out that mailman
has stopped processing.

I don't see anywhere in the docs that mailman will send mail to the site
admin in the event of a catastrophic error.  Am I missing it?  Has anyone
hacked it in?  Do I have to write a cron job that will poll the process
list to see if mailman is still running?  Has anyone written that already?

TIA,
Kurt
-- 
kwerle at pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~kwerle/
Tired of spam? Control your Mailserver (or .forward)?
http://tess.sf.net




From jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu  Fri Mar 17 19:31:53 2006
From: jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu (Jana Nguyen)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 10:31:53 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Not receive email when posting to list
Message-ID: <441B0099.3030407@ncmir.ucsd.edu>

Hi there,

I can subscribe to a list, both I and the owner of the mailing list get 
an email notifications.  But I do not receive email when
posting to any of the mailing list that I created.

Thank you.


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 17 19:41:38 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 10:41:38 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Not receive email when posting to list
In-Reply-To: <441B0099.3030407@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603171041380765f6691803@msapiro>

Jana Nguyen wrote:
>
>I can subscribe to a list, both I and the owner of the mailing list get 
>an email notifications.  But I do not receive email when
>posting to any of the mailing list that I created.

Does anyone get your posts? Are your posts moderated?

Do you have your subscription options and perhaps the defaults for the
list set to not receive your own posts? Do you Cc: yourself on your
post and if so, do you have your subscription options set to not
receive duplicates?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From demonveen at gmail.com  Fri Mar 17 19:48:31 2006
From: demonveen at gmail.com (daniel trejo)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 12:48:31 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I really need to put a banner on the messages
Message-ID: <997503340603171048r710758f3o@mail.gmail.com>

hello; I explained to my boss the xss exploit, and that i would need to
change the code to put  a <img src=> tag on the header of the messages
posted on the lists. Nevertheless he still wants me to put  it.  So my
question  is  ?do i have to join the developers list to get help with this
issue?
?what are the requisites to join??what should i know?

Or let me explain the project  to see if  someone has suggestions , we need
to implement a mailing lists, there are like 5 divisions. each one with
different members, also each division has like three or four bosses and a
small staff of helpers, each boss has absolute  right of writting on the
list, the staff of helpers also can write on the list, but must include on
the footer the name of the boss authorizing the message.everyone else has no
right to post on the list, no one of the outside has the right to post on
the list, and I will be responsible of administrating all lists. So the
point is that the bosses only have to worry about writting the messages from
anyplace

I  ve  already solved the permissions  problem,  but  the footer and header
are very troublesome. I suggested using mail merge of open office. But he
doesn't want to install it on every computer and to teach evreryone how to
use mail merge

thanks for reading

good bye


From rmraineypostmaster at earthlink.net  Fri Mar 17 19:58:21 2006
From: rmraineypostmaster at earthlink.net (Michael Rainey)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 11:58:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mass subscribe duplicate addresses
Message-ID: <C04054DD.939A%rmraineypostmaster@earthlink.net>


Re: FAQ 3.44 Mass subscribe in different formats, what is result one has
duplicates. I.e. same email address listed twice either in same format or in
different formats like in FAQ.

I have multiple text files of addresses from several lists that we are
combining into a one way announcement list.

Thank you,

Michael Rainey


From jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu  Fri Mar 17 20:33:52 2006
From: jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu (Jana Nguyen)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 11:33:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Not receive email when posting to list
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603171041380765f6691803@msapiro>
References: <PC1740200603171041380765f6691803@msapiro>
Message-ID: <441B0F20.5010808@ncmir.ucsd.edu>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Jana Nguyen wrote:
>  
>
>>I can subscribe to a list, both I and the owner of the mailing list get 
>>an email notifications.  But I do not receive email when
>>posting to any of the mailing list that I created.
>>    
>>
>
>Does anyone get your posts?
>
Nope.

> Are your posts moderated?
>  
>
Nope.

>Do you have your subscription options and perhaps the defaults for the
>list set to not receive your own posts? Do you Cc: yourself on your
>post and if so, do you have your subscription options set to not
>receive duplicates?
>  
>
I have enabled "filter out duplicate messages to list members (if 
possible)."

It seems that mailman can send out mail.  I get an email of confirmation 
when subscribing to the list, but the owner of the list doesn't get an 
email to approve the rquest nor do I received a copy of an email for a 
list that I am a member of.



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 17 20:41:06 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 11:41:06 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Not receive email when posting to list
In-Reply-To: <441B0F20.5010808@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <PC17402006031711410601872a1e67c1@msapiro>

Jana Nguyen wrote:
>
>It seems that mailman can send out mail.  I get an email of confirmation 
>when subscribing to the list, but the owner of the list doesn't get an 
>email to approve the rquest nor do I received a copy of an email for a 
>list that I am a member of.


See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.014.htp>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Fri Mar 17 19:04:41 2006
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 12:04:41 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security Help
Message-ID: <441AFA39.4030904@washburn.edu>

I am a brand new user of Mailman and in the process of building a 
replacement for one that is running out of space.  I am struggling with 
security.  I know there are processes like ftp and telnet which I should 
shutdown but how do I do this.  Any information I have found online 
confuses me or is beyond what I am trying to accomplish.  I simply want 
to know how can I see that services running, how to shut them down, and 
secure the server.  I am running Knoppix 4.0.2 and Mailman 2.1.7.

Thanks!

-- 
Jewel





From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 17 20:57:52 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 11:57:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] I really need to put a banner on the messages
In-Reply-To: <997503340603171048r710758f3o@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC174020060317115752070317ef8233@msapiro>

daniel trejo wrote:

>So my
>question  is  do i have to join the developers list to get help with this
>issue? what are the requisites to join? what should i know?


No you don't have to join mailman-developers, but you do have to learn
Python and read some Mailman code.


Mailman is not the most appropriate tool for what you want to do. You
will probably need to implement a custom handler to add the header
and/or footer as a text/html part instead of a text/plain part.

See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.067.htp>
for an outline of installing a custom handler. and see
Mailman/Handlers/Decorate.py for the handler that currently adds
headers and footers.

There will be issues because the logical thing seems to be to put
something in msg_header and/or msg_footer which a custom handler could
then convert into the HTML you want, but you can't just replace
Decorate with your handler because Decorate is called directly from
Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 17 21:08:01 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 12:08:01 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Admin email on errors?
In-Reply-To: <35383.66.236.113.201.1142618192.squirrel@mail.shiftmanager.net>
Message-ID: <PC17402006031712080107509d584f6f@msapiro>

Kurt Werle wrote:

>I have twice got the following error:
>---
>Mar 14 22:41:58 2006 mailmanctl(54): The master qrunner lock could not be
>acquired.  It appears as though there is
>a stale master qrunner lock.  Try re-running mailmanctl with the -s flag.
>Mar 14 22:41:58 2006 mailmanctl(54):
>Mar 14 22:56:02 2006 mailmanctl(48): The master qrunner lock could not be
>acquired, because it appears as if some
>process on some other host may have acquired it.  We can't test for stale
>locks across host boundaries, so you'll have to do this manually.  Or, if you
>know the lock is stale, re-run mailmanctl with the -s flag.
>---


These errors are the result of a 'mailmanctl start' when mailmanctl was
either already running or died in some 'unclean' way. Are there any
messages in the 'error' or 'qrunner' logs that might illuminate the
problem that caused you to want to do the 'mailmanctl start' in the
first place. And, if not and mailmanctl died ungracefully, it's
unlikely to be able to successfully send you an email about the
situation.


>and I can live with that.  What is a drag is the fact that it takes a user
>telling me "hey, why isn't list mail going out?" to find out that mailman
>has stopped processing.
>
>I don't see anywhere in the docs that mailman will send mail to the site
>admin in the event of a catastrophic error.  Am I missing it?


No. It doesn't exist, because in it's death throes it's unlikely to be
able to send mail any more.


>Has anyone
>hacked it in?  Do I have to write a cron job that will poll the process
>list to see if mailman is still running?  Has anyone written that already?


There are posts in the mailman-users archives about this.


The real solution is to find the underlying problem and fix it so
Mailman doesn't die.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 17 21:11:22 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 12:11:22 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mass subscribe duplicate addresses
In-Reply-To: <C04054DD.939A%rmraineypostmaster@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <PC174020060317121122006292604d14@msapiro>

Michael Rainey wrote:

>
>Re: FAQ 3.44 Mass subscribe in different formats, what is result one has
>duplicates. I.e. same email address listed twice either in same format or in
>different formats like in FAQ.


The first one gets subscribed. The subsequent ones with the same email
address are rejected for 'already a member'. Duplicate names with
different email addresses both get subscribed.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Mar 17 21:12:31 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 14:12:31 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security Help
In-Reply-To: <441AFA39.4030904@washburn.edu>
References: <441AFA39.4030904@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603171212g7f28856ctd2c22bad468eb2d6@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/17/06, Jewel <jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu> wrote:
> I am struggling with
> security.  I know there are processes like ftp and telnet which I should
> shutdown but how do I do this.  Any information I have found online
> confuses me or is beyond what I am trying to accomplish.  I simply want
> to know how can I see that services running, how to shut them down, and
> secure the server.  I am running Knoppix 4.0.2 and Mailman 2.1.7.
This isn't really the place to ask this question, mostly; You should
ask your questions in a Knoppix mailing list or forum.


All mailman needs is an MTA (Knoppix probably ships with Exim, but I'm
not sure.)


- Patrick Bogen


From stupidmail4me at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 17 21:13:58 2006
From: stupidmail4me at yahoo.com (stupidmail4me)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 12:13:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Forged from headers and non existent lists
In-Reply-To: <86oe06m6jp.fsf@n-dimensional.de>
Message-ID: <20060317201358.62029.qmail@web30112.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

You're right. That's a good question. Why is mailman
receiving these messages?

Here's the message that gets sent back:
Your mail for blah at lists.foo.com could not be sent:
	no list named "blah" is known by lists.foo.com

For a list of publicly-advertised mailing lists hosted
on this server,
visit this URL:
	http://lists.foo.com/

If this does not resolve your problem, you may write
to:
	postmaster at lists.foo.com
or
	mailman-owner at lists.foo.com


lists.foo.com delivers e-mail to registered mailing
lists
and to the administrative addresses defined and
required by IETF
Request for Comments (RFC) 2142 [1].

Personal e-mail addresses are not offered by this
server.

The Internet Engineering Task Force [2] (IETF)
oversees the development
of open standards for the Internet community,
including the protocols
and formats employed by Internet mail systems.

For your convenience, your original mail is attached.


[1] Crocker, D. "Mailbox Names for Common Services,
Roles and
    Functions".  http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2142.txt

[2] http://www.ietf.org/

What can I change so that nothing gets sent?

--- Hans Ulrich Niedermann <hun at n-dimensional.de>
wrote:

> stupidmail4me <stupidmail4me at yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> > My site is getting a lot of spam sent to my lists.
> > They are being sent from unknown people using
> forged
> > from headers. Mailman then sends an email to these
> > forged from headers telling them so and so list
> > doesn't exist. Most of these forged from headers
> > aren't real addresses, so there begins loops of
> > mailman trying to send out a message, and their
> email
> > servers telling mine that address doesn't exist.
> >
> > Is there an option in Mailman to just disregard
> > messages sent to lists that don't exist? I don't
> want
> > to send a message informing them that the list
> doesn't
> > exist, I just want Mailman to ignore it. Is this
> > possible?
> 
> Why does Mailman receive those mails in the first
> place?
> 
> There should be no valid alias for those
> non-existing lists and the
> MTA thus should not accept those mails at all. If
> the MTA just returns
> a SMTP error "no such user", no additional mails are
> generated.
> 
> Gru?,
> 
> Hans Ulrich Niedermann
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 17 21:25:31 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 12:25:31 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Security Help
In-Reply-To: <441AFA39.4030904@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC174020060317122531085902681dfa@msapiro>

Jewel wrote:
>I simply want 
>to know how can I see that services running, how to shut them down, and 
>secure the server.  I am running Knoppix 4.0.2 and Mailman 2.1.7.


If Mailman is normally installed, there is a 'mailmanctl' in its bin/
directory, and Mailman is shut down with 'bin/mailmanctl stop'.

Anything more than that, as Patrick said, seems to be beyond the scope
of this list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 17 21:39:23 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 12:39:23 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Forged from headers and non existent lists
In-Reply-To: <20060317201358.62029.qmail@web30112.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC174020060317123923006231f3ba75@msapiro>

stupidmail4me wrote:
>
>Here's the message that gets sent back:
>Your mail for blah at lists.foo.com could not be sent:
>	no list named "blah" is known by lists.foo.com
>
>For a list of publicly-advertised mailing lists hosted
>on this server,
>visit this URL:
>	http://lists.foo.com/
>
>If this does not resolve your problem, you may write
>to:
>	postmaster at lists.foo.com
>or
>	mailman-owner at lists.foo.com


This message does not come from a 'stock' Mailman. Most likely it comes
from your MTA. Is this a standard Mailman install from source or
someone's package? What is the MTA?

I would look at the MTA configuration for the source of this message.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From stupidmail4me at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 17 21:43:10 2006
From: stupidmail4me at yahoo.com (stupidmail4me)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 12:43:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Forged from headers and non existent lists
In-Reply-To: <86oe06m6jp.fsf@n-dimensional.de>
Message-ID: <20060317204310.64000.qmail@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I just figured it out. You're right, it's not mailman
sending out the response. I'm using mm-handler and
that's what's sending out the bad list name response.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From oliver at samera.com.py  Fri Mar 17 21:45:44 2006
From: oliver at samera.com.py (Oliver Schulze L.)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:45:44 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Tip for finding in the source
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603100733140656f909293e@msapiro>
References: <PC1740200603100733140656f909293e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <441B1FF8.2000808@samera.com.py>

(To list moderator: please don't block this email, its an already 
started discussion,
I need to provide feedback to Mark, I need to post the patch, thanks)

Hi Mark,
I think I found were the original email get attached to the notification 
email.

What I need to do is:
- if the email have been marked as Spam by the Mailman Spam filters,
  comment the line:
  #nmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))
  else, include the original email:
  nmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))
- Detect if the email has been rejected because the Mailman Spam Filter
  made a hit.
- I never code in python(but did in C++, php, perl, etc). My question 
is, how do
  I convert the Hold.py to Hold.pyc ?

I made this patch to:
Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py
--- Hold.py.ori 2006-03-17 17:03:27.000000000 -0300
+++ Hold.py     2006-03-17 17:02:55.000000000 -0300
@@ -274,7 +274,7 @@
             dmsg['Sender'] = requestaddr
             dmsg['From'] = requestaddr
             nmsg.attach(text)
-            nmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))
+            #nmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))
             nmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(dmsg))
             nmsg.send(mlist, **{'tomoderators': 1})
         finally:

Many thanks!
Oliver

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> The process is driven by Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.py and the actual
> sending of notices, scoring of bounces, etc. is done in
> Mailman/Bouncer.py.
>   
-- 
Oliver Schulze L.
<oliver at samera.com.py>



From kwz-mm at commpartners.com  Fri Mar 17 21:55:40 2006
From: kwz-mm at commpartners.com (Karl Zander)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 15:55:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Use of Mailman documentation
Message-ID: <web-2725721@commpartners.com>

  
I note that on the Mailman website this is some nice 
documention for users written by Terri Oda (and others I 
gather.)  It is allowed to give that out to my users?  I 
do not see anything about how it is licensed.

--Karl


From tderouin at gmail.com  Fri Mar 17 21:57:17 2006
From: tderouin at gmail.com (Travis Derouin)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 15:57:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] There currently are
	nopublicly-advertisedMailmanmailing lists
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603171009530875ccc09080@msapiro>
References: <631bbe190603170945i24ebdec6m96b1436d4b14bfc0@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1740200603171009530875ccc09080@msapiro>
Message-ID: <631bbe190603171257g703a81a8ybfd2de5f972c15e2@mail.gmail.com>

Ok,

This is all sort of embarrassing, but may shed light on why other
users have similar problems.

Both servers running RedHat had pre-existing mailman installations
that came with the distribution by default! One was located at
/usr/lib/mailman and one at /var/mailman, and had mailman.conf in
conf.d that set the /mailman/ directory before my ScriptAlias could
work. I didn't find this until doing a 'find / -name list_info.py'

Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it.

Travis

On 3/17/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> Travis Derouin wrote:
>
> >Yep, I tried that. I even removed
> >/tmp/mailman-2.1.7Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py and did a `make clean` which
> >deleted src/listinfo, but when i did a `make`, src/listinfo
> >reappeared, even though listinfo.py was deleted. So I must be missing
> >something somewhere.
>
>
> Yes.
>
>
> >When I do a `make install` the changes I put in
> >/tmp/mailman-2.1.7/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py are copied over to
> >/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py, so I'm not sure why
> >/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo doesn't reflect them.
>
>
> make compiles src/listinfo.c into src/listinfo. make install copies
> src/listinfo to /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo. This is just the
> wrapper that checks for proper group before invoking
> /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py which is the python script
> that actually does the work.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 17 22:04:15 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 13:04:15 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Tip for finding in the source
In-Reply-To: <441B1FF8.2000808@samera.com.py>
Message-ID: <PC17402006031713041507031c5ced0e@msapiro>

Oliver Schulze L. wrote:

>(To list moderator: please don't block this email, its an already 
>started discussion,
>I need to provide feedback to Mark, I need to post the patch, thanks)


The moderator didn't block your first message. Content filtering
discarded it because after removing the text/html part, there was
nothing left.


>What I need to do is:
>- if the email have been marked as Spam by the Mailman Spam filters,
>  comment the line:
>  #nmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))
>  else, include the original email:
>  nmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))


So you need to add the logic to do this. E.g., instead of just
commenting out the attachment of the message

            #nmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))

you need something like

            if msg.get('x-spam-flag') <> 'YES':
                nmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))


>- Detect if the email has been rejected because the Mailman Spam Filter
>  made a hit.


Isn't this the same thing as above?


>- I never code in python(but did in C++, php, perl, etc). My question 
>is, how do
>  I convert the Hold.py to Hold.pyc ?


Python does it automatically the first time the module is imported with
the timestamp on the .py later than the .pyc, it will recompile and
save a new .pyc (assuming it has permission).


>I made this patch to:
>Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py
>--- Hold.py.ori 2006-03-17 17:03:27.000000000 -0300
>+++ Hold.py     2006-03-17 17:02:55.000000000 -0300
>@@ -274,7 +274,7 @@
>             dmsg['Sender'] = requestaddr
>             dmsg['From'] = requestaddr
>             nmsg.attach(text)
>-            nmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))
>+            #nmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))
>             nmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(dmsg))
>             nmsg.send(mlist, **{'tomoderators': 1})
>         finally:

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From oliver at samera.com.py  Fri Mar 17 22:10:41 2006
From: oliver at samera.com.py (Oliver Schulze L.)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 17:10:41 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Tip for finding in the source
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006031713041507031c5ced0e@msapiro>
References: <PC17402006031713041507031c5ced0e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <441B25D1.8030506@samera.com.py>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Oliver Schulze L. wrote:
>   
> The moderator didn't block your first message. Content filtering
> discarded it because after removing the text/html part, there was
> nothing left.
>   
Ohh, I understand. Sorry about the misunderstanfing
>> What I need to do is:
>> - if the email have been marked as Spam by the Mailman Spam filters,
>>  comment the line:
>>  #nmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))
>>  else, include the original email:
>>  nmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))
>>     
> So you need to add the logic to do this. E.g., instead of just
> commenting out the attachment of the message
>
>             #nmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))
>
> you need something like
>
>             if msg.get('x-spam-flag') <> 'YES':
>                 nmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))
>   
Great! Will do it right now.
>> - Detect if the email has been rejected because the Mailman Spam Filter
>>  made a hit.
>>     
> Isn't this the same thing as above?
>   
yes :)
>> - I never code in python(but did in C++, php, perl, etc). My question 
>> is, how do
>>  I convert the Hold.py to Hold.pyc ?
>>     
> Python does it automatically the first time the module is imported with
> the timestamp on the .py later than the .pyc, it will recompile and
> save a new .pyc (assuming it has permission).
>   
Thats nice. Will test it right now.

Can I later submit the patch for:
[ 1219887 ] switch to not send body of spam to owner
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1219887&group_id=103&atid=350103

Later I will be asking help again for solving:
[ 1443069 ] If an email is filtered with a SPAM filter, do not reply
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1443069&group_id=103&atid=350103


Cheers,
Oliver

-- 
Oliver Schulze L.
<oliver at samera.com.py>



From tom at detroitonline.com  Fri Mar 17 22:06:16 2006
From: tom at detroitonline.com (Tom Ray)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:06:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] A glitch in Mailman??
Message-ID: <007301c64a06$a1a5e1a0$c802a8c0@echoes>

I'm running mailman on multiple sites (virtual mail server) and for each
installation I configured it for the domain inquestion only. The last
two installs that I did were with mailman 2.1.7 while the existing ones
were with 2.1.6. It appears that the mailing lists for all the domains
are working just fine but I'm running into a problem with the web site
side of it all.

All the domains installed with 2.1.7 are _not_ having any issues with
the web interface. However, all the domains setup with 2.1.6 are not
working. It claims there are no public lists to view and when I enter
the list to view (per the page's instructions) I'm being told the list
doesn't exist. It also says that the installed version is 2.1.7

Is there something I missed? I was under the impression that if I
configured each domain seperately it would not be an issue. Do I need to
run some sort of upgrade script on the sites using 2.1.6?

TIA


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 17 22:30:36 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 13:30:36 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Use of Mailman documentation
In-Reply-To: <web-2725721@commpartners.com>
Message-ID: <PC174020060317133036018706904adf@msapiro>

Karl Zander wrote:
>  
>I note that on the Mailman website this is some nice 
>documention for users written by Terri Oda (and others I 
>gather.)  It is allowed to give that out to my users?  I 
>do not see anything about how it is licensed.

The entire web site, including Terri's manuals (but not Chris Kolar's
or any other off site links) is in the Mailman distribution in the
admin/www directory. Thus, it's distributed under the GPL.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 17 22:39:40 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 13:39:40 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] A glitch in Mailman??
In-Reply-To: <007301c64a06$a1a5e1a0$c802a8c0@echoes>
Message-ID: <PC174020060317133940070306904ce7@msapiro>

Tom Ray wrote:

>I'm running mailman on multiple sites (virtual mail server) and for each
>installation I configured it for the domain inquestion only. The last
>two installs that I did were with mailman 2.1.7 while the existing ones
>were with 2.1.6. It appears that the mailing lists for all the domains
>are working just fine but I'm running into a problem with the web site
>side of it all.
>
>All the domains installed with 2.1.7 are _not_ having any issues with
>the web interface. However, all the domains setup with 2.1.6 are not
>working. It claims there are no public lists to view and when I enter
>the list to view (per the page's instructions) I'm being told the list
>doesn't exist. It also says that the installed version is 2.1.7
>
>Is there something I missed? I was under the impression that if I
>configured each domain seperately it would not be an issue. Do I need to
>run some sort of upgrade script on the sites using 2.1.6?

This shouldn't be a 2.1.6 vs. 2.1.7 issue. It's hard to know what's
goin on from your description, but is seems your separate installs are
not as separate as you think.

Is each domain's set of cgi-bin wrappers in it's own cgi-bin directory,
and were each domain's wrappers compiled by a makefile configured with
its own unique set of 'prefix' arguments?

Were the 2.1.6 lists created in their current domains? If not see
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.029.htp>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From tom at detroitonline.com  Fri Mar 17 22:43:47 2006
From: tom at detroitonline.com (Tom Ray)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:43:47 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] A glitch in Mailman??
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060317133940070306904ce7@msapiro>
Message-ID: <007a01c64a0b$df30c990$c802a8c0@echoes>

Mark-

Thanks for the reply and sorry if I wasn't overly clear. Each domain was
setup as --prefix=/home/sites/domainname.com/mailman

Each site has it's own cgi-bin but I did setup everything as
mailman:mailman for user:group. I'll see what I can do about upgrading
the 2.1.6 lists to 2.1.7 and see if that has any effect.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net] 
> Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 4:40 PM
> To: Tom Ray; mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] A glitch in Mailman??
> 
> 
> Tom Ray wrote:
> 
> >I'm running mailman on multiple sites (virtual mail server) and for 
> >each installation I configured it for the domain inquestion 
> only. The 
> >last two installs that I did were with mailman 2.1.7 while 
> the existing 
> >ones were with 2.1.6. It appears that the mailing lists for all the 
> >domains are working just fine but I'm running into a problem 
> with the 
> >web site side of it all.
> >
> >All the domains installed with 2.1.7 are _not_ having any 
> issues with 
> >the web interface. However, all the domains setup with 2.1.6 are not 
> >working. It claims there are no public lists to view and 
> when I enter 
> >the list to view (per the page's instructions) I'm being 
> told the list 
> >doesn't exist. It also says that the installed version is 2.1.7
> >
> >Is there something I missed? I was under the impression that if I 
> >configured each domain seperately it would not be an issue. 
> Do I need 
> >to run some sort of upgrade script on the sites using 2.1.6?
> 
> This shouldn't be a 2.1.6 vs. 2.1.7 issue. It's hard to know 
> what's goin on from your description, but is seems your 
> separate installs are not as separate as you think.
> 
> Is each domain's set of cgi-bin wrappers in it's own cgi-bin 
> directory, and were each domain's wrappers compiled by a 
> makefile configured with its own unique set of 'prefix' arguments?
> 
> Were the 2.1.6 lists created in their current domains? If not 
> see 
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.029.htp>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 17 23:10:33 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 14:10:33 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] A glitch in Mailman??
In-Reply-To: <007a01c64a0b$df30c990$c802a8c0@echoes>
Message-ID: <PC17402006031714103300626dff779f@msapiro>

Tom Ray wrote:
>
>Thanks for the reply and sorry if I wasn't overly clear. Each domain was
>setup as --prefix=/home/sites/domainname.com/mailman


This should be fine, but in the OP you said that the 2.1.6 web pages
identify themselves as 2.1.7 which they shouldn't at all be doing if
they are completely separate. Also, if they identify themselves as
2.1.7, they are probably getting Defaults.py/mm_cfg.py from one of the
2.1.7 domains too. Note that the value of $prefix is compiled into the
cgi-bin wrappers, so each set must be configured for it's own domain.


>Each site has it's own cgi-bin but I did setup everything as
>mailman:mailman for user:group.


That shouldn't be a problem.


>I'll see what I can do about upgrading
>the 2.1.6 lists to 2.1.7 and see if that has any effect.


It shouldn't (unless you mean the while configure/make upgrade), but
fix_url as mentioned in FAQ 4.29 might.


>> Were the 2.1.6 lists created in their current domains? If not 
>> see 
><http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.029.htp>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From oliver at samera.com.py  Sat Mar 18 09:11:01 2006
From: oliver at samera.com.py (Oliver Schulze L.)
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 04:11:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Tip for finding in the source
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006031713041507031c5ced0e@msapiro>
References: <PC17402006031713041507031c5ced0e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <441BC095.7050808@samera.com.py>

Hi Mark,
one couple of last questions,

- Does msg.get('x-spam-flag') reads the email header or does it
  reads a status/property that is from mailman?
- how do I create a new configuration option? Just tell what directory
  to read ;) I'm planning adding this option:
  send_bounced_email_to_owner = never | ifnotspam | always

Many thanks for your help
Oliver

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> you need something like
>
>             if msg.get('x-spam-flag') <> 'YES':
>                 nmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))
>   

-- 
Oliver Schulze L.
<oliver at samera.com.py>



From andyk at spunge.org  Sat Mar 18 13:58:38 2006
From: andyk at spunge.org (Andy)
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 06:58:38 -0600 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] No Mailman web pages appear.
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0603180658210.28828@chi.spunge.org>

Hi!

After installing and running Mailman no Mailman web page is visible (no list
has been created yet, though).
What can be wrong?

a.



From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar 18 16:00:06 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 07:00:06 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] No Mailman web pages appear.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0603180658210.28828@chi.spunge.org>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603180700060140b1e38e12@msapiro>

Andy wrote:
>
>After installing and running Mailman no Mailman web page is visible (no list
>has been created yet, though).
>What can be wrong?

You can't run Mailman without at least the site list (mailman).
mailmanctl won't start.

However, this is not your problem as the web interface doesn't require
mailmanctl and the qrunners to be running.

See <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node10.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar 18 17:24:43 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 08:24:43 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Tip for finding in the source
In-Reply-To: <441BC095.7050808@samera.com.py>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603180824430859b6540206@msapiro>

Oliver Schulze L.wrote:
>
>- Does msg.get('x-spam-flag') reads the email header or does it
>  reads a status/property that is from mailman?


This is an email.Message.Message method. it returns the value of an

X-Spam-Flag:

header in the message or None if there is no such header.


>- how do I create a new configuration option? Just tell what directory
>  to read ;) I'm planning adding this option:
>  send_bounced_email_to_owner = never | ifnotspam | always


See for example the patch attached to
<https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=403066&group_id=103&atid=350103>.

The details are of course different, but the essential items are
illustrated:

- Provide a default value for the attribute in Defaults.py.

- Add the attribute and brief and detailed description to the
  appropriate Mailman/Gui/ module.

- Initialize the attribute for new lists in InitVars() in
  Mailman/MailList.py.

- Initialize the attribute for existing lists when they are updated
  in Mailman/Versions.py.

- Increment the DATA_FILE_VERSION in Mailman/Version.py so existing
  lists will be updated when they are accessed.

- Add the actual code to use the attribute and implement the function
  (In the case of the above patch, those changes are also in
  Mailman/MailList.py, but they could be anywhere.)

Note also, that X-Spam-Flag: is a Spamassassin specific header. If you
are going to try to make this general, you should use
header_filter_rules.

Also, before you do anything, look at Mailman 2.1.8 (a1 is currently
available, see
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2006-March/018621.html>).
Look at the changes in Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py having to do
with reject or hold of messages to the owner that match
header_filter_rules. If you just want to look at SpamDetect.py, see
<http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/mailman/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py?view=log>.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From oliver at samera.com.py  Sat Mar 18 19:30:36 2006
From: oliver at samera.com.py (Oliver Schulze L.)
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 14:30:36 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Tip for finding in the source
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603180824430859b6540206@msapiro>
References: <PC1740200603180824430859b6540206@msapiro>
Message-ID: <441C51CC.5050609@samera.com.py>

Hi Mark,
many thanks for the links and explanations, I will be working on it.

Regards,
Oliver

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
> Also, before you do anything, look at Mailman 2.1.8 (a1 is currently
> available, see
> <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2006-March/018621.html>).
> Look at the changes in Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py having to do
> with reject or hold of messages to the owner that match
> header_filter_rules. If you just want to look at SpamDetect.py, see
> <http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/mailman/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py?view=log>.
>
>
>   

-- 
Oliver Schulze L.
<oliver at samera.com.py>



From eliz at indra.com  Sat Mar 18 22:28:53 2006
From: eliz at indra.com (Elizabeth Lear)
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 14:28:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] changing rejected post messages to not include all
	of the original text
Message-ID: <20060318212853.GA45816@net.indra.com>

According to SORBS, they are blacklisting my site because spam
messages that have been sent to our mailing lists are being tossed
back in a bounce that "contains the entire spam, which is
unacceptable".  This blacklisting is causing the users and listmembers
some problems.

The SORBS rep said "If you are able to change the configuration of the
mailing lists so that the rejection notices would not contain the
contents of the rejected message, it should be sufficient to cause this
not to happen again."  Is there a way that I could change this setting
in mailman?

Thanks,
					...eliz

-- 
Children are made up of genetics, blind luck, and the stories you tell them.
 - The Flying Ks



From msapiro at value.net  Sun Mar 19 00:20:23 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 15:20:23 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] changing rejected post messages to not include
	allof the original text
In-Reply-To: <20060318212853.GA45816@net.indra.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603181520230468eca7e14b@msapiro>

Elizabeth Lear wrote:
>
>The SORBS rep said "If you are able to change the configuration of the
>mailing lists so that the rejection notices would not contain the
>contents of the rejected message, it should be sufficient to cause this
>not to happen again."  Is there a way that I could change this setting
>in mailman?


There is currently no setting for this in Mailman.

One way to do this is to implement spam filtering on the incoming mail
in the MTA before it ever reaches Mailman and reject spam at the SMTP
level.

It can be done in Mailman by modifying the code in Mailman/Bouncer.py.
At the end of the definition of the BounceMessage() method is the
following (watch for wrapped lines)

        # Currently we always craft bounces as MIME messages.
        bmsg = Message.UserNotification(msg.get_sender(),
                                        self.GetOwnerEmail(),
                                        subject,
                                        lang=self.preferred_language)
        # BAW: Be sure you set the type before trying to attach, or
you'll get
        # a MultipartConversionError.
        bmsg.set_type('multipart/mixed')
        txt = MIMEText(notice,
                      
_charset=Utils.GetCharSet(self.preferred_language))
        bmsg.attach(txt)
        bmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))
        bmsg.send(self)

If you simply remove the line

        bmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))

or change it to

        # bmsg.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))

the reject email will still be a MIME multipart/mixed message with one
text/plain subpart containing the reject notice.

If you want a simple text/plain message, make the above look like

        bmsg = Message.UserNotification(msg.get_sender(),
                                        self.GetOwnerEmail(),
                                        subject,
                                        lang=self.preferred_language)
        bmsg.set_payload(notice,
                       Utils.GetCharSet(self.preferred_language))
        bmsg.send(self)

 
-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From pveerman at nemo.kabelfoon.net  Sun Mar 19 17:01:08 2006
From: pveerman at nemo.kabelfoon.net (Peter Veerman)
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 17:01:08 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Approving large messages results in MemoryError
Message-ID: <20060319160103.D88D7F0368@dory.hackwerk.net>

Hi,
 
I'm Running mailman 2.1.7 on gentoo.
 
When i want to approve a message which needs for some reason my approval
(e.g. from a wrong adress or sent BCC) i "hit a bug". It seems that it does
not give any problems when the message to be approved is very small.... But
when an attachment is included mailman hits a bug. Very funny is that i can
still discard the message only that is not what i want.
 
What can i do to get rid of this annoying error?
 
Peter
 
 
--------------
 
THe resulting error in my logs is:
 
Mar 19 16:00:11 2006 admin(22759):
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 
admin(22759): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.7 -----] 
admin(22759): [----- Traceback ------] 
admin(22759): Traceback (most recent call last):
admin(22759):   File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/driver", line 101, in
run_main
admin(22759):     main()
admin(22759):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py", line 164,
in main
admin(22759):     process_form(mlist, doc, cgidata)
admin(22759):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py", line 714,
in process_form
admin(22759):     forward, forwardaddr)
admin(22759):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 167, in
HandleRequest
admin(22759):     forward, addr)
admin(22759):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 272, in
__handlepost
admin(22759):     msg = readMessage(path)
admin(22759):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 581, in
readMessage
admin(22759):     msg = cPickle.load(fp)
admin(22759): MemoryError
admin(22759): [----- Python Information -----] 
admin(22759): sys.version     =   2.4.2 (#1, Oct 15 2005, 14:18:45) 
[GCC 3.3.5-20050130 (Gentoo 3.3.5.20050130-r1, ssp-3.3.5.20050130-1,
pie-8.7.7. 
admin(22759): sys.executable  =   /usr/bin/python 
admin(22759): sys.prefix      =   /usr 
admin(22759): sys.exec_prefix =   /usr 
admin(22759): sys.path        =   /usr 
admin(22759): sys.platform    =   linux2 
admin(22759): [----- Environment Variables -----] 
admin(22759):   HTTP_COOKIE:
spam+admin=28020000006962621d44732800000062613662313033616262666335363731353
330303339306234393064616232636432663431356230 admin(22759):
SERVER_SOFTWARE: Apache 
admin(22759):   SCRIPT_NAME: /mailman/admindb 
admin(22759):   SERVER_SIGNATURE: <address>Apache Server at xxx.xxxxxx.xxx
Port 80</address>
admin(22759): 
admin(22759):   REQUEST_METHOD: POST 
admin(22759):   HTTP_KEEP_ALIVE: 300 
admin(22759):   SERVER_PROTOCOL: HTTP/1.1 
admin(22759):   QUERY_STRING:  
admin(22759):   CONTENT_LENGTH: 136 
admin(22759):   HTTP_ACCEPT_CHARSET: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7 
admin(22759):   HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1;
en-US; rv:1.8.0.1) Gecko/20060111 Firefox/1.5.0.1 
admin(22759):   HTTP_CONNECTION: keep-alive 
admin(22759):   HTTP_REFERER: http://
<http://dory.kabelfoon.net/mailman/admindb/spam>
xxx.xxxxxx.xxx/mailman/admindb/spam 
admin(22759):   SERVER_NAME: xxx.xxxxxx.xxx
admin(22759):   REMOTE_ADDR: xxx.xxxxxx.xxx
admin(22759):   PATH_TRANSLATED: /data/hosting/localhost/htdocs/spam 
admin(22759):   SERVER_PORT: 80 
admin(22759):   SERVER_ADDR: xxx.xxxxxx.xxx 
admin(22759):   DOCUMENT_ROOT: /data/hosting/localhost/htdocs/ 
admin(22759):   PYTHONPATH: /usr/local/mailman 
admin(22759):   SCRIPT_FILENAME: /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/admindb 
admin(22759):   SERVER_ADMIN: pveerman@ <mailto:pveerman at nemo.kabelfoon.net>
xxx.xxxxxx.xxx 
admin(22759):   HTTP_HOST: xxx.xxxxxx.xxx 
admin(22759):   REQUEST_URI: /mailman/admindb/spam 
admin(22759):   HTTP_ACCEPT:
text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=
0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5 
admin(22759):   GATEWAY_INTERFACE: CGI/1.1 
admin(22759):   REMOTE_PORT: 2641 
admin(22759):   HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE: en-us,en;q=0.5 
admin(22759):   CONTENT_TYPE: application/x-www-form-urlencoded 
admin(22759):   HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING: gzip,deflate 
admin(22759):   PATH_INFO: /spam 
 
 


From pal at hkskole.no  Sun Mar 19 18:37:07 2006
From: pal at hkskole.no (pal at hkskole.no)
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 18:37:07 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] remove unused language
Message-ID: <38631.80.212.52.103.1142789827.squirrel@hkskole.no>

I want to remove the list of languages when administrator is making a new
list. I want to use the default language, and nothing else. How can I
remove every language in the list, except the default one?

Mailman 2.1.5 on FC3.
--
P?l Monstad



From msapiro at value.net  Sun Mar 19 19:24:11 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 10:24:11 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] remove unused language
In-Reply-To: <38631.80.212.52.103.1142789827.squirrel@hkskole.no>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603191024110578616ff0ed@msapiro>

pal at hkskole.no wrote:

>I want to remove the list of languages when administrator is making a new
>list. I want to use the default language, and nothing else. How can I
>remove every language in the list, except the default one?

At the end of Defaults.py you will see the definition of the
LC_DESCRIPTIONS dictionary. Basically, you want to remove the
languages you don't want to support, but you don't do this in
Defaults.py. You do it in mm_cfg.py by copying everything beginning
with

def _(s):
    return s

LC_DESCRIPTIONS = {}

def add_language(code, description, charset):
    LC_DESCRIPTIONS[code] = (description, charset)

and ending with

del _

Except for the languages you don't want to support. Assuming for
example that you already have

DEFAULT_SERVER_LANGUAGE = 'no'

in mm_cfg.py, you could add


def _(s):
    return s

LC_DESCRIPTIONS = {}

def add_language(code, description, charset):
    LC_DESCRIPTIONS[code] = (description, charset)

add_language('no',    _('Norwegian'),           'iso-8859-1')

del _

to mm_cfg.py to make Norwegian the only supported language. If you know
Python, you could come up with lots of ways to do this in mm_cfg.py,
byt the above is the most straightforward. Note that you must have an
LC_DESCRIPTIONS entry for the DEFAULT_SERVER_LANGUAGE. As long as you
have that, you can have as many or as few of the other languages as
you want.

NOTE! Before you do this, you need to be sure the preferred language of
each existing list is set to (one of) the language(s) you support.
Otherwise you'll encounter exceptions when accessing the list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Sun Mar 19 20:06:58 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 11:06:58 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Approving large messages results in MemoryError
In-Reply-To: <20060319160103.D88D7F0368@dory.hackwerk.net>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603191106580000173b9d3a@msapiro>

Peter Veerman wrote:
> 
>I'm Running mailman 2.1.7 on gentoo.
> 
>When i want to approve a message which needs for some reason my approval
>(e.g. from a wrong adress or sent BCC) i "hit a bug". It seems that it does
>not give any problems when the message to be approved is very small.... But
>when an attachment is included mailman hits a bug.


How big are these attachments?

<snip>
>admin(22759):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 581, in
>readMessage
>admin(22759):     msg = cPickle.load(fp)
>admin(22759): MemoryError


The Python process run via cgi from the web server has run out of
memory in attempting to retrieve the message from the held message
pickle where it's stored. This is a file in Mailman's 'data' directory
named heldmsg-listname-nnn.pck (where listname is the name of the list
and nnn is a sequence number). How big is this file? can you
successfully dump it with bin/dumpdb? Does your OS or web server
somehow limit the size of cgi programs?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From twills16 at cox.net  Sun Mar 19 21:34:05 2006
From: twills16 at cox.net (Tom Wills)
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 13:34:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving of website
Message-ID: <441DC03D.000007.01408@WIN2K>

I want to move my site to a different host. However, I don't see how I can 
move the mailman folders from one host to another. When I backup my files 
from the host, I see the mailman folders. But for me to upload them, I can't

drill down far enough on the new host to ftp them over. Is there a way to 
import all my archives from one host to another??? 
 
Thanks in advance!


From pal at hkskole.no  Sun Mar 19 21:38:36 2006
From: pal at hkskole.no (pal at hkskole.no)
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 21:38:36 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrading Mailman 2.1.5 to 2.1.7 FC3
Message-ID: <39128.80.212.52.103.1142800716.squirrel@hkskole.no>

I have installed Mailman 2.1.5 on a Fedora core 3 box. I installed from
RPM. Tha last version for FC3 is 2.1.5, but I'd like to upgrade to 2.1.7.
Is there an easy way to do this? Anyone who have done this successfully?
--
P?l Monstad



From pveerman at nemo.kabelfoon.net  Mon Mar 20 12:22:12 2006
From: pveerman at nemo.kabelfoon.net (Peter Veerman)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 12:22:12 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Approving large messages results in MemoryError
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603191106580000173b9d3a@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20060320112207.DC6C5F0422@dory.hackwerk.net>

>>Peter Veerman wrote:
>>
>>I'm Running mailman 2.1.7 on gentoo.
>> 
>>When i want to approve a message which needs for some reason my 
>>approval (e.g. from a wrong adress or sent BCC) i "hit a bug". It seems 
>>that it does not give any problems when the message to be approved is 
>>very small.... But when an attachment is included mailman hits a bug.
>How big are these attachments?

Ranging from 1 to 5 MB

><snip>
>>admin(22759):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 581,
in
>>readMessage
>>admin(22759):     msg = cPickle.load(fp)
>>admin(22759): MemoryError

>The Python process run via cgi from the web server has run out of memory in
attempting to retrieve the message from the held message pickle where it's
stored. This is a file in Mailman's 'data' directory named
heldmsg-listname-nnn.pck (where listname is the name of the list and nnn is
a sequence number). 
>How big is this file? 

This file is 1.4 MB

> can you successfully dump it with bin/dumpdb? 

Yes...Just 1.4 MB of data flashed ran across my terminal :)

> Does your OS or web server somehow limit the size of cgi programs?

Well I run apache2 and to be onest, i have not got a clue about this. I
searched my configuration files for any indications for this and also
googled around without any result :(












From bakyh at etri.re.kr  Mon Mar 20 12:27:36 2006
From: bakyh at etri.re.kr (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?udrAr8f2?=)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 20:27:36 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unsubscribe
Message-ID: <DBB06209076F2743A0264367DD5A863B5BD945@email1>



-----Original Message-----
From: mailman-users-bounces+bakyh=etri.re.kr at python.org [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+bakyh=etri.re.kr at python.org] On Behalf Of mailman-users-request at python.org
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 8:00 PM
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 25, Issue 51

Send Mailman-Users mailing list submissions to
	mailman-users at python.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	mailman-users-request at python.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	mailman-users-owner at python.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Mailman-Users digest..."


From stefan.friedel at iwr.uni-heidelberg.de  Mon Mar 20 12:08:55 2006
From: stefan.friedel at iwr.uni-heidelberg.de (Stefan Friedel)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 12:08:55 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] format error in qrunner
Message-ID: <20060320110855.GB23456@woyzeck>

Good Morning,
every now and then we observe that qrunner is dying w/ something like

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", line 270, in ?
    main()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", line 230, in main
    qrunner.run()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 87, in run
    self._cleanup()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.py", line 220, in _cleanup
    BounceMixin._cleanup(self)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.py", line 132, in _cleanup
    self._register_bounces()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.py", line 120, in _register_bounces
    mlist.registerBounce(addr, msg, day=day)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Bouncer.py", line 131, in registerBounce
    time.strftime('%d-%b-%Y', day + (0,)*6))
ValueError: day of year out of range

Obviously a not-so-well-(known/formatted) date specifier is disturbing the
qrunner - any hint?

Regards, Stefan Friedel
-- 
Zentrale Dienste - Interdisziplin?res Zentrum f?r Wissenschaftliches
Rechnen der Universit?t Heidelberg - IWR - INF 368, 69120 Heidelberg
stefan.friedel at iwr.uni-heidelberg.de  Tel +49 6221 54-8240 Fax -5224
IWR: www.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de          HELICS: www.helics.uni-hd.de
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 191 bytes
Desc: Digital signature
Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/attachments/20060320/2ed8c1a0/attachment.pgp 

From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 20 17:45:21 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 08:45:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Approving large messages results in MemoryError
In-Reply-To: <20060320112207.DC6C5F0422@dory.hackwerk.net>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032008452103756be6d80c@msapiro>

Peter Veerman wrote:

>>How big are these attachments?
>
>Ranging from 1 to 5 MB
>
>><snip>

>>How big is this file? 
>
>This file is 1.4 MB
>
>> can you successfully dump it with bin/dumpdb? 
>
>Yes...Just 1.4 MB of data flashed ran across my terminal :)
>
>> Does your OS or web server somehow limit the size of cgi programs?
>
>Well I run apache2 and to be onest, i have not got a clue about this. I
>searched my configuration files for any indications for this and also
>googled around without any result :(


This seems to be an issue beyond either Mailman or Python. Clearly
Mailman's IncomingRunner process can receive the incoming post, parse
it into a message instance and ultimately pickle it to the heldmsg
file.

The stand alone bin/dumpdb can unpickle it and display it, but when the
admindb interface running as a cgi attempts to unpickle it, it gets a
MemoryError exception. I think it has to be due to some limit on the
cgi from apache2, but I don't know what that would be.

As a workaround, you could try approving the message by email. I didn't
ask whether you have admin_immed_notify on so you receive individual
notices of these posts, but if you do, the notice (in addition to
being additional evidence that Mailman's IncomingRunner has no problem
with this size message) has an attached message/rfc822 part at the end
following the attached original post.

This final attached message is From: the listname-request address and
has a subject like 'confirm 72bd7cc3e10add5cd7577039f77be82112f237d1'
(with different hex digits). It has instructions in the body, but
simply, if you send a message back to the listname-request address
with the same subject and the first line of the body being

Approved: list_password

where list_password is the actual list admin or moderator password, the
original message will be approved. Without the Approved: line, the
original message will be discarded.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 20 17:57:52 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 08:57:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] format error in qrunner
In-Reply-To: <20060320110855.GB23456@woyzeck>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603200857520484120357b8@msapiro>

Stefan Friedel wrote:

>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Bouncer.py", line 131, in registerBounce
>    time.strftime('%d-%b-%Y', day + (0,)*6))
>ValueError: day of year out of range
>
>Obviously a not-so-well-(known/formatted) date specifier is disturbing the
>qrunner - any hint?

This is a known incompatibility between pre 2.1.6 Mailman and Python
2.4. See
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2005-March/043640.html>
for the options.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From Cleveland at winnefox.org  Mon Mar 20 17:44:49 2006
From: Cleveland at winnefox.org (Jody Cleveland)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 10:44:49 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unable to post to announcement only list I have
	setup
Message-ID: <9720CA43F755A148BF65B6618B90CB941A6284@magneto.wals.local>

Hello,

I've got a list setup where I only want moderators to be able to post to
the list. I've got 5 addresses setup as moderators, but when I use one
to post to the list, I get a bounce message:
We're sorry, this is an announcement only list. We were unable to post
your message.

I know it must just be a setting I'm missing somewhere. Any ideas what
may be wrong with my setup?

- jody


From kwerle at pobox.com  Mon Mar 20 18:09:04 2006
From: kwerle at pobox.com (Kurt Werle)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 09:09:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Admin email on errors?
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006031712080107509d584f6f@msapiro>
References: <35383.66.236.113.201.1142618192.squirrel@mail.shiftmanager.net>
	<PC17402006031712080107509d584f6f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <15766.66.236.113.201.1142874544.squirrel@mail.shiftmanager.net>


<quote who="Mark Sapiro">
> Kurt Werle wrote:
>
>
>> I have twice got the following error:
>> ---
>> Mar 14 22:41:58 2006 mailmanctl(54): The master qrunner lock could not
>> be acquired.  It appears as though there is a stale master qrunner lock.
>> Try re-running mailmanctl with the -s flag.
>> Mar 14 22:41:58 2006 mailmanctl(54):
>> Mar 14 22:56:02 2006 mailmanctl(48): The master qrunner lock could not
>> be acquired, because it appears as if some process on some other host may
>> have acquired it.  We can't test for stale locks across host boundaries,
>> so you'll have to do this manually.  Or, if you know the lock is stale,
>> re-run mailmanctl with the -s flag. ---
>
> These errors are the result of a 'mailmanctl start' when mailmanctl was
> either already running or died in some 'unclean' way. Are there any
> messages in the 'error' or 'qrunner' logs that might illuminate the
> problem that caused you to want to do the 'mailmanctl start' in the first
> place.

Not that I can see - though it looks like it did some thrashing AFTER
writing that log.

qrunner...
Mar 17 09:18:22 2006 (9277) VirginRunner qrunner started.
Mar 17 09:18:22 2006 (9276) OutgoingRunner qrunner started.
Mar 17 09:18:23 2006 (9274) IncomingRunner qrunner started.
Mar 17 09:18:23 2006 (9275) NewsRunner qrunner started.
Mar 17 09:18:23 2006 (9278) RetryRunner qrunner started.
Mar 17 09:18:23 2006 (9271) ArchRunner qrunner started.
Mar 17 09:18:23 2006 (9273) CommandRunner qrunner started.
Mar 17 09:18:23 2006 (9272) BounceRunner qrunner started.
Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9270) Master watcher caught SIGTERM.  Exiting.
Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9271) ArchRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9271) ArchRunner qrunner exiting.
Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9272) BounceRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9272) BounceRunner qrunner exiting.
Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9273) CommandRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9273) CommandRunner qrunner exiting.
Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9274) IncomingRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9274) IncomingRunner qrunner exiting.
Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9275) NewsRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9275) NewsRunner qrunner exiting.
Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9276) OutgoingRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9276) OutgoingRunner qrunner exiting.


> And, if not and mailmanctl died ungracefully, it's unlikely to be
> able to successfully send you an email about the situation.

You're telling me that it has the presense of mind to write an error log,
but can't do the equivalent of
echo mailman died | mail -s 'mailman died' $ADMIN

I'm not buying that.

>> Has anyone
>> hacked it in?  Do I have to write a cron job that will poll the process
>> list to see if mailman is still running?  Has anyone written that
>> already?
>
> There are posts in the mailman-users archives about this.

I did some searching, but couldn't find them.

> The real solution is to find the underlying problem and fix it so
> Mailman doesn't die.

I agree that software shouldn't crash.  I disagree that it won't crash.  I
insist that when server software crashes, it should send mail to an admin.

Kurt
-- 
kwerle at pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~kwerle/
Tired of spam? Control your Mailserver (or .forward)?
http://tess.sf.net




From bretton at hivemind.net  Mon Mar 20 18:19:22 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 19:19:22 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] errors after applying virtualhost patches to 2.1.7
Message-ID: <441EE41A.4080305@hivemind.net>

After applying the following two patches to the mailman source,
compiling and installing on Debian unstable I get the attached errors in
my logfiles. Can anyone explain specifically what's going wrong?
(The lists do still work though)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Mar 18 14:52:47 2006 (24312) Uncaught runner exception: global name
'Errors' is not defined
Mar 18 14:52:47 2006 (24312) Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 111, in _oneloop
    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 167, in _onefile
    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 73, in _dispose
    mlist.ArchiveMail(msg)
File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 234, in
ArchiveMail
    h.close()
File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 327, in close
    self.update_dirty_archives()
File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 543, in
update_dirty_archives
    self.update_archive(i)
File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 1126, in
update_archive
    self.__super_update_archive(archive)
File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 447, in
update_archive
    self._update_simple_index(hdr, archive, arcdir)
File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 463, in
_update_simple_index
    article = self.database.getArticle(self.archive, msgid)
File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperDatabase.py", line 285,
in getArticle
    article = self.__cache[msgid] = pickle.loads(buf)
File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 379, in
__setstate__
    d['_mlist'] = self._open_list(listname)
File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 344, in
_open_list
    except Errors.MMListError, e:
NameError: global name 'Errors' is not defined
-----------------------------------------------------------------

regards
-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"When I am dead, I hope it is said, 'His sins were scarlet, but his
books were read'." - Hillaire Belloc


From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 20 18:35:36 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 09:35:36 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unable to post to announcement only list I
	havesetup
In-Reply-To: <9720CA43F755A148BF65B6618B90CB941A6284@magneto.wals.local>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032009353605626be6d8d6@msapiro>

Jody Cleveland wrote:
>
>I've got a list setup where I only want moderators to be able to post to
>the list. I've got 5 addresses setup as moderators, but when I use one
>to post to the list, I get a bounce message:
>We're sorry, this is an announcement only list. We were unable to post
>your message.


Putting an address in the list of moderators only results in that
address receiving notifications. It doesn't give that address any
special privileges. See FAQ articles 3.27 and 3.60.

>Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py


>I know it must just be a setting I'm missing somewhere. Any ideas what
>may be wrong with my setup?

Are your moderators list members?

You basically have two choices for posting to your list, one of which
is much more secure than the other. See FAQ articles 3.11 and 3.34.

The insecure choice is to have the authorized posters be unmoderated
list members, but this is subject to spoofing.

The secure way is for the authorized posters to know the moderator (or
admin) list password and to put

Approved: password

either as an actual header in the post or as the first non-blank line
of the first text/plain part of the message. Note that if this line is
the first line of the body and the post is multipart/alternative,
prior to Mailman 2.1.7 the line would not be removed from the
alternative parts.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From bretton at hivemind.net  Mon Mar 20 18:43:19 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 19:43:19 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] errors after applying virtualhost patches to
 2.1.7
In-Reply-To: <441EE41A.4080305@hivemind.net>
References: <441EE41A.4080305@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <441EE9B7.3090205@hivemind.net>

Bretton Vine said the following on 2006/03/20 07:19 PM:
> After applying the following two patches to the mailman source,
> compiling and installing on Debian unstable I get the attached errors in
> my logfiles. 

Apologies, forgot to add which patches I applied:

[1] http://nix.lauft.net/mailman/mailman-2.1.7-release-to-20060114.patch
[2] http://nix.lauft.net/mailman/mailman-2.1.7-20060114-to-vhost.patch


-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

It is easier to measure something than to understand what you have measured.


From tstewart at mcw.edu  Mon Mar 20 17:54:33 2006
From: tstewart at mcw.edu (Stewart, Tom)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 10:54:33 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive question
Message-ID: <EEE1E47094AB7C4DA2868E679EA488F80832C2F3@MCWMAIL.mcwcorp.net>



I inherited a mailman system and need to move some monthly archives from
a list called test to the actual mailing list. Both lists are on the
same system. 

Everything I could find indicates to copy the file over to the public or
private area and then run  \arch --wipe maillistname.

When I do that, it justs deletes the .txt and folder that I copied over.

What am I missing?

Thanks,
Tom 


From bretton at hivemind.net  Mon Mar 20 18:10:31 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 19:10:31 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] vhost patchset for 2.1.7 (Debian, Exim)
Message-ID: <441EE207.1000908@hivemind.net>

Hi, I wonder if anyone can point me in the appropriate direction of some
sorely lacking documentation on the patching of mailman to support
virtualhosts under exim.

Starting here:

  http://nix.lauft.net/mailman/

It appears that there are two distinct forks to the patchset
(please correct me if I'm wrong)

Apply [1] to mailman source, then [2]
[1] http://nix.lauft.net/mailman/mailman-2.1.7-release-to-20060114.patch
[2] http://nix.lauft.net/mailman/mailman-2.1.7-20060114-to-vhost.patch

or

Apply [A] to mailman source, then [B]
[A] http://nix.lauft.net/mailman/mailman-2.1.7-release-to-vhost.patch
[B] http://nix.lauft.net/mailman/mailman-vh-2.1.7.patch

In both cases I've had to extensively edit the patches (paths etc) to
apply correctly to the source on my system and they don't work with
Debain sources either.

On top of that the sheer lack of documentation (especially if you're a
sysadmin and not a python developer) is quite confusing. I haven't found
any of the related sites (see below) to be of that much more use either.
And where there is documentation related to mailman and exim, I've
followed the instructions to the letter in terms of virtualhosts and
still have no luck.

I'm more than happy to put together whatever documentation is required
if I can mine someone's brain who understands the source or how to make
the patch sources work properly.

What's also interesting is that in the Debian installation of
mailman/exim the following files are created in /etc/exim4/conf.d
specifically for virtualhosting but using them seems to be an arcane
art. I can't seem to get the config working as implied by these  files
or find additional info about them:

  /etc/exim4/conf.d/router/420_exim4-config_virt_mailman
  /etc/exim4/conf.d/transport/50_exim4-config_virt_mailman

Any assistance would be appreciated, thanks.

  (related sites)
  1. http://wiki.koumbit.net/VirtualMailman?highlight=%28Virtual%29
  2. http://www.exim.org/howto/mailman21.html
  3. http://www.tty1.net/virtual_domains_en.html

I did manage to get Neil Blakey-Milner's patch working briefly but it
wasn't sufficient for my needs. I know him so I contacted him directly
but he's unable to assist with tweaking the 2.1.7 patches to my needs.

  (Neil's original patches)
  1. http://mithrandr.moria.org/blog/139.html
  2. http://mithrandr.moria.org/blog/151.html

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"You have not converted a man because you have silenced him." - John Morley


From bretton at hivemind.net  Mon Mar 20 18:15:14 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 19:15:14 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] follow-up to previous posts,
	exim + mailman + virtualhosts
Message-ID: <441EE322.5010600@hivemind.net>

My requirements are for an installation of mailman and exim on a single
server to provide the following functionality:

1. Same named lists, separate lists across domains namely:

   --> listname at domain1.co.za
   --> listname at domain2.co.za

2. Domain name independent configuration of lists

   i.e. listname at domain1.co.za is administered at
        http://lists.domain1.co.za/mailman/listname

        listname at domain2.co.za is administered at
        http://lists.domain2.co.za/mailman/listname

Can anyone tell me if this is (a) practical and (b) possible, with or
without patches etc. If so, where could I find the relevant
documentation on to do it? Can the config be setup in mailman or is some
magic required with regards DNS, Apache (rewrite, redirect, alias
directives etc) and Exim.

thanks
-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"Don't knock masturbation, it's sex with someone I love." ~ Woody Allen,
Annie Hall


From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 20 18:52:10 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 09:52:10 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] errors after applying virtualhost patches to
	2.1.7
In-Reply-To: <441EE41A.4080305@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <PC174020060320095210014073d01e56@msapiro>

Bretton Vine wrote:

>After applying the following two patches to the mailman source,
>compiling and installing on Debian unstable I get the attached errors in
>my logfiles. Can anyone explain specifically what's going wrong?
>(The lists do still work though)


But do messages get archived?


<snip>
>File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 344, in
>_open_list
>    except Errors.MMListError, e:
>NameError: global name 'Errors' is not defined


It appears your patch has triggered a bug in HyperArch.py, namely the
statement

from Mailman import Errors

is missing from this module. Adding that line with the other "from
Mailman import" lines will fix this, but it won't fix the underlying
problem with the patches. It will just turn the above exception into
an entry in the error log like

error opening list: listname
 <error message>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Mon Mar 20 18:57:48 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 09:57:48 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive question
In-Reply-To: <EEE1E47094AB7C4DA2868E679EA488F80832C2F3@MCWMAIL.mcwcorp.n
 et>
References: <EEE1E47094AB7C4DA2868E679EA488F80832C2F3@MCWMAIL.mcwcorp.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060320094901.05f49ed0@crimson-dragon.com>

Stewart, Tom sent the message below at 08:54 3/20/2006:


>I inherited a mailman system and need to move some monthly archives from
>a list called test to the actual mailing list. Both lists are on the
>same system.
>
>Everything I could find indicates to copy the file over to the public or
>private area and then run  \arch --wipe maillistname.
>
>When I do that, it justs deletes the .txt and folder that I copied over.
>
>What am I missing?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Do you have a valid .mbox file in the archive directory?  (That 
directory will be something like 
/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox and the file in 
there will be called listname.mbox)

If not, arch has nothing to work with as that is the file that the 
arch script uses to build the archive message files and index.

If you want to build a single contiguous archive for both the 
previous list and the current one, you can concatenate the two .mbox 
files into a single file named with your list name and an .mbox 
extension. Once that is done, you can rebuild the archive using the 
arch script.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 20 19:04:20 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 10:04:20 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive question
In-Reply-To: <EEE1E47094AB7C4DA2868E679EA488F80832C2F3@MCWMAIL.mcwcorp.net>
Message-ID: <PC174020060320100420056273d02006@msapiro>

Stewart, Tom wrote:
>
>I inherited a mailman system and need to move some monthly archives from
>a list called test to the actual mailing list. Both lists are on the
>same system. 
>
>Everything I could find indicates to copy the file over to the public or
>private area and then run  \arch --wipe maillistname.
>
>When I do that, it justs deletes the .txt and folder that I copied over.
>
>What am I missing?


What you need to do is merge the
archives/private/test_list.mbox/test_list.mbox file with the
archives/private/maillistname.mbox/maillistname.mbox so that you wind
up with archives/private/maillistname.mbox/maillistname.mbox
containing its original contents plus that of the test_list.mbox file.
Then

bin/arch --wipe maillistname

will build a complete archive.

See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.003.htp>
for some more info.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From edcarlsen at cox.net  Mon Mar 20 19:39:58 2006
From: edcarlsen at cox.net (edcarlsen at cox.net)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 13:39:58 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Confused About MIME Types
Message-ID: <20060320183952.KLXA5868.centrmmtao05.cox.net@[172.18.53.8]>

All, 
I am a newbe to mailman and I may ask a dumb question, sorry.
I have Mailman 2.1.5 and a list working well. I would like to send an attached PDF file to members on the list. I know there is "Content Filtering" to describe the types of MIME to not allow and they must start with multipart as:
multipart/text
I don't know MIME well enough to know which types I should not allow to be able to send PDF files attached to a email.
Can you point me in the right direction?

Thanks in advance.

Ed Carlsen




From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 20 20:19:02 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 11:19:02 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Admin email on errors?
In-Reply-To: <15766.66.236.113.201.1142874544.squirrel@mail.shiftmanager.net>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032011190208127aa6eb6e@msapiro>

Kurt Werle wrote:
>
><quote who="Mark Sapiro">
>> Kurt Werle wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I have twice got the following error:
>>> ---
>>> Mar 14 22:41:58 2006 mailmanctl(54): The master qrunner lock could not
>>> be acquired.  It appears as though there is a stale master qrunner lock.
>>> Try re-running mailmanctl with the -s flag.
>>> Mar 14 22:41:58 2006 mailmanctl(54):
>>> Mar 14 22:56:02 2006 mailmanctl(48): The master qrunner lock could not
>>> be acquired, because it appears as if some process on some other host may
>>> have acquired it.  We can't test for stale locks across host boundaries,
>>> so you'll have to do this manually.  Or, if you know the lock is stale,
>>> re-run mailmanctl with the -s flag. ---
>>
>> These errors are the result of a 'mailmanctl start' when mailmanctl was
>> either already running or died in some 'unclean' way. Are there any
>> messages in the 'error' or 'qrunner' logs that might illuminate the
>> problem that caused you to want to do the 'mailmanctl start' in the first
>> place.
>
>Not that I can see - though it looks like it did some thrashing AFTER
>writing that log.


Those messages come from bin/mailmanctl's acquire_lock() function which
is only called at the beginning of processing a 'mailmanctl start'
command. Thus, I stand by my statement above.


>qrunner...
>Mar 17 09:18:22 2006 (9277) VirginRunner qrunner started.
>Mar 17 09:18:22 2006 (9276) OutgoingRunner qrunner started.
>Mar 17 09:18:23 2006 (9274) IncomingRunner qrunner started.
>Mar 17 09:18:23 2006 (9275) NewsRunner qrunner started.
>Mar 17 09:18:23 2006 (9278) RetryRunner qrunner started.
>Mar 17 09:18:23 2006 (9271) ArchRunner qrunner started.
>Mar 17 09:18:23 2006 (9273) CommandRunner qrunner started.
>Mar 17 09:18:23 2006 (9272) BounceRunner qrunner started.
>Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9270) Master watcher caught SIGTERM.  Exiting.


This indicates a 'mailmanctl stop' command or some other event resulted
in a SIGTERM being sent to the running mailmanctl. (And are these
messages from two and a half days later supposed to be related to
those above?)


>Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9271) ArchRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
>Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9271) ArchRunner qrunner exiting.
>Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9272) BounceRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
>Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9272) BounceRunner qrunner exiting.
>Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9273) CommandRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
>Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9273) CommandRunner qrunner exiting.
>Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9274) IncomingRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
>Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9274) IncomingRunner qrunner exiting.
>Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9275) NewsRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
>Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9275) NewsRunner qrunner exiting.
>Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9276) OutgoingRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.  Stopping.
>Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9276) OutgoingRunner qrunner exiting.


And these are the result of the subsequent normal shutdown.


>> And, if not and mailmanctl died ungracefully, it's unlikely to be
>> able to successfully send you an email about the situation.
>
>You're telling me that it has the presense of mind to write an error log,
>but can't do the equivalent of
>echo mailman died | mail -s 'mailman died' $ADMIN
>
>I'm not buying that.


No. I'm telling you that your original post included nothing about why
mailmanctl or any qrunner stopped in the first place, thus I had no
evidence that anything was written when it stopped, only the messages
from subsequent start attempts and the fact that if it had in fact
died, it did so without removing the lock file.

So were there log messages about the original termination prior the the
start attempts at Mar 14 22:41:58 2006 and Mar 14 22:56:02 2006?


>>> Has anyone
>>> hacked it in?  Do I have to write a cron job that will poll the process
>>> list to see if mailman is still running?  Has anyone written that
>>> already?
>>
>> There are posts in the mailman-users archives about this.
>
>I did some searching, but couldn't find them.


I know I bring this on myself by doing it so much, but I don't like
being used as a search engine for the Mailman FAQ and mailman-users
archives.

Try the entire thread that begins at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2005-May/044888.html>
which I found fairly quickly with
<http://www.google.com/search?q=site:mail.python.org++inurl:mailman-users++cron+restart+mailmanctl>.


>> The real solution is to find the underlying problem and fix it so
>> Mailman doesn't die.
>
>I agree that software shouldn't crash.  I disagree that it won't crash.  I
>insist that when server software crashes, it should send mail to an admin.


It's an open source project. We're all volunteers. Feel free to
implement whatever you need. Insisting that others do the work won't
get you very far.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 20 20:45:54 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 11:45:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Confused About MIME Types
In-Reply-To: <20060320183952.KLXA5868.centrmmtao05.cox.net@[172.18.53.8]>
Message-ID: <PC174020060320114554028193e565cf@msapiro>

Ed Carlsen wrote:

>I am a newbe to mailman and I may ask a dumb question, sorry.
>I have Mailman 2.1.5 and a list working well. I would like to send an attached PDF file to members on the list. I know there is "Content Filtering" to describe the types of MIME to not allow and they must start with multipart as:
>multipart/text


No. You're confused already. There is no multipart/text type.


>I don't know MIME well enough to know which types I should not allow to be able to send PDF files attached to a email.
>Can you point me in the right direction?


I find it easiest to leave filter_mime_types empty and use
pass_mime_types to allow those types I want.

A message may consist of a single part in which case it will have no
Content-Type: header (which is text/plain by default) or it will have
a Content-Type: which is not multipart/*.

Messages with attachments always have a content type which is
multipart/* - usually multipart/mixed. Messages with alternatives
(e.g. a plain text part and an HTML part representing the same
content) are multipart/alternative with sub parts like text/plain and
text/html.

For example, a message with a pdf attachment could have the following
hierarchical structure.

multipart/mixed
    multipart/alternative
        text/plain - the plain text message
        text/html - the html message
    application/pdf - the pdf attachment

In order to accept the text/plain part and the pdf attachment, you need
the following in pass_mime_types

multipart/mixed          to accept the message at all
multipart/alternative    to accept the part that contains the plain text
                         part

(The above two could be simply 'multipart' to accept all multipart
parts since the sub part type must be accepted anyway.)

text/plain               to accept the plain text part, and
application/pdf          to accept the pdf attachment

These would cause the text/html part to be removed and the resultant
message to have the structure

multipart/mixed
    text/plain - the plain text message
    application/pdf - the pdf attachment

See <http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/> for the definitions
of various content types/subtypes.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From debian at benburb.demon.co.uk  Mon Mar 20 21:43:46 2006
From: debian at benburb.demon.co.uk (debian)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 20:43:46 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] not archiving posts for one list
Message-ID: <20060320204346.GA3604@benburb.demon.co.uk>

Please,

back in February, I set up a mailman (2.1.5 under debian testing) list here
called pgc.  I posted to it and everything went fine, including the
archive of my post.

But, now that I am going live, new posts are not visible from the
mailman web pages.  My original February post is there, but that is
all.  No postings appear for March.

All other lists are working as normal.

I have checked all the "archiving" options on the administrator's screen.

I have recreated the list, to no avail.

I have created another new list and everything is fine.

I can browse to the archives:

	/var/lib/mailman/archives/pgc

and all the postings are there.

It is just that mailman does not display them.

Thanks 

Joe.


From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 20 21:08:23 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 12:08:23 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] not archiving posts for one list
In-Reply-To: <20060320204346.GA3604@benburb.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <PC174020060320120823025070abef31@msapiro>

debian wrote:
>
>But, now that I am going live, new posts are not visible from the
>mailman web pages.  My original February post is there, but that is
>all.  No postings appear for March.
>
>All other lists are working as normal.
>
>I have checked all the "archiving" options on the administrator's screen.
>
>I have recreated the list, to no avail.
>
>I have created another new list and everything is fine.
>
>I can browse to the archives:
>
>	/var/lib/mailman/archives/pgc
>
>and all the postings are there.


I assume you mean /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/pgc


>It is just that mailman does not display them.


It probably doesn't matter, but is this a public or a private archive?

So are you saying that the actual posts exist in a
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/pgc/2006-March directory, but the
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/pgc/index.html file doesn't have a
March 2006 entry?

Have you checked the ownership and permissions on these files and
directories and compared them with those of a working list?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From debian at benburb.demon.co.uk  Mon Mar 20 22:23:19 2006
From: debian at benburb.demon.co.uk (debian)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:23:19 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] not archiving posts for one list
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060320120823025070abef31@msapiro>
References: <20060320204346.GA3604@benburb.demon.co.uk>
	<PC174020060320120823025070abef31@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20060320212319.GA4711@benburb.demon.co.uk>

On Mon, Mar 20, 2006 at 12:08:23PM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> debian wrote:

> >	/var/lib/mailman/archives/pgc
> >
> >and all the postings are there.
> 
> 
> I assume you mean /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/pgc

Oooops, my bad.

> It probably doesn't matter, but is this a public or a private archive?

public

> So are you saying that the actual posts exist in a
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/pgc/2006-March directory, but the

yes

> /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/pgc/index.html file doesn't have a
> March 2006 entry?

No.  Here is the contents of the index.html:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
  <HEAD>
     <title>The Pgc Archives</title>
     <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow">
     <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
  </HEAD>
  <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff">
     <h1>The Pgc Archives </h1>
     <p>
      You can get <a href="http://benburb.demon.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pgc">more information about this list</a>.
     </p>
     
     	<table border=3>
          <tr><td>Archive</td>
          <td>View by:</td>
          <td>Downloadable version</td></tr>

     
	    <tr>
            <td>The Week Of Monday 13 March 2006:</td>
            <td>
              <A href="Week-of-Mon-20060313/thread.html">[ Thread ]</a>
              <A href="Week-of-Mon-20060313/subject.html">[ Subject ]</a>
              <A href="Week-of-Mon-20060313/author.html">[ Author ]</a>
              <A href="Week-of-Mon-20060313/date.html">[ Date ]</a>
            </td>
            <td><A href="Week-of-Mon-20060313.txt.gz">[ Gzip'd Text 419 bytes ]</a></td>
            </tr>


	    <tr>
            <td>March 2006:</td>
            <td>
              <A href="2006-March/thread.html">[ Thread ]</a>
              <A href="2006-March/subject.html">[ Subject ]</a>
              <A href="2006-March/author.html">[ Author ]</a>
              <A href="2006-March/date.html">[ Date ]</a>
            </td>
            <td><A href="2006-March.txt.gz">[ Gzip'd Text 5 KB ]</a></td>
            </tr>


	    <tr>
            <td>February 2006:</td>
            <td>
              <A href="2006-February/thread.html">[ Thread ]</a>
              <A href="2006-February/subject.html">[ Subject ]</a>
              <A href="2006-February/author.html">[ Author ]</a>
              <A href="2006-February/date.html">[ Date ]</a>
            </td>
            <td><A href="2006-February.txt.gz">[ Gzip'd Text 217 bytes ]</a></td>
            </tr>


              </table>

     </BODY>
     </HTML>

> Have you checked the ownership and permissions on these files and
> directories and compared them with those of a working list?

Here are the permissions of the faulty list:

drwxrwsr-x  2 list list  4096 Feb  3 18:56 2006-February
-rw-rw-r--  1 list list   213 Feb  3 18:56 2006-February.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 list list   217 Feb  4 03:27 2006-February.txt.gz
drwxrwsr-x  2 list list  4096 Mar 20 21:04 2006-March
-rw-rw-r--  1 list list 50335 Mar 20 21:04 2006-March.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 list list  5645 Mar 20 03:27 2006-March.txt.gz
drwxrwsr-x  2 list list  4096 Mar 19 07:17 Week-of-Mon-20060313
-rw-rw-r--  1 list list   553 Mar 19 07:17 Week-of-Mon-20060313.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 list list   419 Mar 20 03:27 Week-of-Mon-20060313.txt.gz
drwxrwsr-x  5 list list  4096 Mar 20 15:34 attachments
drwxrws---  2 list list  4096 Mar 20 21:04 database
-rw-rw-r--  1 root list  1984 Mar 20 21:04 index.html
-rw-rw----  1 list list   911 Mar 20 21:04 pipermail.pck

here are the permissions of a fully functional list:

drwxrwsr-x  2 list list  4096 Feb  3 18:56 2006-February
-rw-rw-r--  1 list list   213 Feb  3 18:56 2006-February.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 list list   217 Feb  4 03:27 2006-February.txt.gz
drwxrwsr-x  2 list list  4096 Mar 20 21:04 2006-March
-rw-rw-r--  1 list list 50335 Mar 20 21:04 2006-March.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 list list  5645 Mar 20 03:27 2006-March.txt.gz
drwxrwsr-x  2 list list  4096 Mar 19 07:17 Week-of-Mon-20060313
-rw-rw-r--  1 list list   553 Mar 19 07:17 Week-of-Mon-20060313.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 list list   419 Mar 20 03:27 Week-of-Mon-20060313.txt.gz
drwxrwsr-x  5 list list  4096 Mar 20 15:34 attachments
drwxrws---  2 list list  4096 Mar 20 21:04 database
-rw-rw-r--  1 root list  1984 Mar 20 21:04 index.html
-rw-rw----  1 list list   911 Mar 20 21:04 pipermail.pck

Stumpped !

Joe


From kwerle at pobox.com  Mon Mar 20 21:46:17 2006
From: kwerle at pobox.com (Kurt Werle)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 12:46:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Admin email on errors?
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006032011190208127aa6eb6e@msapiro>
References: <15766.66.236.113.201.1142874544.squirrel@mail.shiftmanager.net>
	<PC17402006032011190208127aa6eb6e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <49356.66.236.113.201.1142887577.squirrel@mail.shiftmanager.net>

> This indicates a 'mailmanctl stop' command or some other event resulted
> in a SIGTERM being sent to the running mailmanctl. (And are these messages
> from two and a half days later supposed to be related to those above?)

Nope.  But that's all I saw in the logs that was in the same week.

>> Mar 17 09:34:34 2006 (9271) ArchRunner qrunner caught SIGTERM.
>> Stopping.
...
> And these are the result of the subsequent normal shutdown.

Ah - that'd be a reboot, then.

>>> And, if not and mailmanctl died ungracefully, it's unlikely to be
>>> able to successfully send you an email about the situation.
>>
>> You're telling me that it has the presense of mind to write an error
>> log, but can't do the equivalent of echo mailman died | mail -s 'mailman
>> died' $ADMIN
>>
>> I'm not buying that.
>
> No. I'm telling you that your original post included nothing about why
> mailmanctl or any qrunner stopped in the first place, thus I had no
> evidence that anything was written when it stopped, only the messages from
> subsequent start attempts and the fact that if it had in fact died, it did
> so without removing the lock file.

Ah-ha!  Now I see.  That was a start failure, not a death failure. 
Gotcha.  So I'm now asking 2 questions: what fired mailmanctl at that
time, and why didn't it send the admin mail when it failed to start up?

> So were there log messages about the original termination prior the the
> start attempts at Mar 14 22:41:58 2006 and Mar 14 22:56:02 2006?

Nope.

>>>> Has anyone
>>>> hacked it in?  Do I have to write a cron job that will poll the
>>>> process list to see if mailman is still running?  Has anyone written
>>>> that already?
>>>
>>> There are posts in the mailman-users archives about this.
>>>
>>
>> I did some searching, but couldn't find them.
>
> I know I bring this on myself by doing it so much, but I don't like
> being used as a search engine for the Mailman FAQ and mailman-users
> archives.

I appreciate you stooping.  Nowhere in the FAQ does it mention the error I
quoted.  Nor does it mention anything about monitoring for failure.  Nor
does the admin section of the faq seem to say anything about notification
on error.

> Try the entire thread that begins at
> <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2005-May/044888.html>
> which I found fairly quickly with
> <http://www.google.com/search?q=site:mail.python.org++inurl:mailman-users
> ++cron+restart+mailmanctl>.

Which I would never have found, since I was searching for mailman,
notification, errors, and the errorstring I mentioned.  There is a thread
that mentions the same error (and it is also on OSX), but it didn't seem
to resolve.

>>> The real solution is to find the underlying problem and fix it so
>>> Mailman doesn't die.
>>
>> I agree that software shouldn't crash.  I disagree that it won't crash.
>> I
>> insist that when server software crashes, it should send mail to an
>> admin.
>
> It's an open source project. We're all volunteers. Feel free to
> implement whatever you need. Insisting that others do the work won't get
> you very far.

I don't insist that others implement it - but I figure it's worth asking
if anyone has already done the work before I roll it out.

Casual inspection of mailmanctl looks like the exception thrown is not
caught, which makes me wonder what the exit code is (I'm not much of a
python coder).  Depending on what called mailmanctl that generated the
exception in the first place, it seems like returning an error code would
be plenty enough tell the caller to make noise.

Thanks,
Kurt
-- 
kwerle at pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~kwerle/
Tired of spam? Control your Mailserver (or .forward)?
http://tess.sf.net




From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 20 21:50:37 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 12:50:37 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Advice wanted on option to not include original
	post in notices
Message-ID: <PC17402006032012503704377aa6ea1a@msapiro>

There have been a couple of threads on the list in the last week or two
regarding not sending the content of the original post in reject
notices to the (alleged) poster and in owner notifications.

I'm considering implementing these options for Mailman 2.2, but I want
some feed back to be sure I'm doing what people want and to be sure
I'm not overlooking things.

Here are my areas of concern.

First, should these be site wide mm_cfg.py options or should they be
per-list options with a default from mm_cfg.py? In either case, the
Defaults.py setting would match current behavior.

I see a few different cases of messages including the original.

Bounce processing sends unrecognized bounces to the owner if
bounce_unrecognized_goes_to_list_owner is on. Since these notices are
meaningless without the actual message, I think there is no need for
an additional setting here. Also, if bounce_notify_owner_on_disable is
on, the owner gets a copy of the triggering bounce, but this should
always be a legitimate DSN in response to a message from the list, so
I don't see a need to provide an option to exclude the DSN from the
notification.

The privacy options reject_these_nonmembers, generic_nonmember_action
and header_filter_rules can automatically reject a post. Currently,
the original post is included. I see a single option (should it be
site wide or per list) to control putting the original in the reject
notice.

The moderator can reject a held post. Currently the original post is
not included. I don't see a need to change this.
	
If admin_immed_notify is on, notices of individual held posts are sent
to the owners/moderators and these include the original post. I see an
option separate from the reject option (and should this be site wide
or per list) to put only summary information (From:, Subject: hold
reason) in this notice.

Note that this last can be 'almost' accomplished currently by turning
admin_immed_notify off and increasing the frequency of the
cron/checkdbs job from daily to maybe hourly, although this would
affect all lists.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From pveerman at nemo.kabelfoon.net  Mon Mar 20 21:53:59 2006
From: pveerman at nemo.kabelfoon.net (Peter Veerman)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:53:59 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Approving large messages results in MemoryError
	[solved]
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006032008452103756be6d80c@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20060320205353.244A0F0422@dory.hackwerk.net>

>>How big are these attachments?
>
>Ranging from 1 to 5 MB
>
><snip>

I solved it thanks to your (Mark Sapiro) clear explanation about the inner
working of mailman.

As you mentioned that it wasnt mailman causing the problem i went into my
configfiles of apache again and this time i found something i looked over
before:

In the virtual host config running the mailman cgi script there were the
following lines:

RlimitCPU 50
RlimitMem 15000000

After commenting them out....IT WORKED!

As i have seen quite a lot of messages with alike errors without any
solution it might be interesting to add this to your FAQ?

Thanks!

Peter



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 20 22:00:27 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 13:00:27 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] not archiving posts for one list
In-Reply-To: <20060320212319.GA4711@benburb.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <PC174020060320130027018730729776@msapiro>

debian wrote:
>
>> So are you saying that the actual posts exist in a
>> /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/pgc/2006-March directory, but the
>
>yes
>
>> /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/pgc/index.html file doesn't have a
>> March 2006 entry?
>
>No.  Here is the contents of the index.html:
>
<snipped, but looked good to me>


I just went to <http://benburb.demon.co.uk/pipermail/pgc/> and
everything looked fine to me.

Your OP said

>My original February post is there, but that is all.
>No postings appear for March.

I see the March 2006: and The Week Of Monday 13 March 2006: entries in
the index and I can follow them to the sub indices and the posts.

Do you have an old index page cached in your browser or in a proxy
somewhere?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 20 22:46:55 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 13:46:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Admin email on errors?
In-Reply-To: <49356.66.236.113.201.1142887577.squirrel@mail.shiftmanager.net>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603201346550093f4a82154@msapiro>

Kurt Werle wrote:
>
>Ah-ha!  Now I see.  That was a start failure, not a death failure. 
>Gotcha.  So I'm now asking 2 questions: what fired mailmanctl at that
>time,


I have no idea?


>and why didn't it send the admin mail when it failed to start up?


Because it assumes that the admin is sitting in front of the console
typing 'bin/mailmanctl start' and can see the response on the console.

If in fact it is a script doing this, then it's up to the script to do
something about the failure.



>Casual inspection of mailmanctl looks like the exception thrown is not
>caught, which makes me wonder what the exit code is (I'm not much of a
>python coder).  Depending on what called mailmanctl that generated the
>exception in the first place, it seems like returning an error code would
>be plenty enough tell the caller to make noise.


Yes, It should return a non-zero exit status in this case, but it
doesn't.

Still, it would be nice to know what actually did the 'mailmanctl
start' in the first place, why it is trying to do this when Mailman
seems like it may still be running, and what if any effort it makes to
detect if anything went wrong.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz  Tue Mar 21 00:01:44 2006
From: Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz (Steven Jones)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 11:01:44 +1200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Automated subscription off AD,
	or a 3rd party application/output
Message-ID: <75CF552F30ECFA439D9B3008906F2A374340CF@STAWINCOMAILCL1.staff.vuw.ac.nz>

Hi All,

Is there something ready made for this sort of job?

Otherwise I thought maybe a script that scp's a flat file over from the
remote app and runs it into a list....

Regards

Steven




From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 00:38:34 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:38:34 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] vhost patchset for 2.1.7 (Debian, Exim)
In-Reply-To: <441EE207.1000908@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <PC174020060320153834018729895bdd@msapiro>

Bretton Vine wrote:

>Hi, I wonder if anyone can point me in the appropriate direction of some
>sorely lacking documentation on the patching of mailman to support
>virtualhosts under exim.
>
>Starting here:
>
>  http://nix.lauft.net/mailman/
>
>It appears that there are two distinct forks to the patchset
>(please correct me if I'm wrong)
>
>Apply [1] to mailman source, then [2]
>[1] http://nix.lauft.net/mailman/mailman-2.1.7-release-to-20060114.patch
>[2] http://nix.lauft.net/mailman/mailman-2.1.7-20060114-to-vhost.patch


In this case, patch [1] is the 2.1.7 post release bug fix patch from
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1405790&group_id=103&atid=300103>
and should be applied to 2.1.7 first, followed by application of [2]
which is the virtual hosting patch.

>or
>
>Apply [A] to mailman source, then [B]
>[A] http://nix.lauft.net/mailman/mailman-2.1.7-release-to-vhost.patch
>[B] http://nix.lauft.net/mailman/mailman-vh-2.1.7.patch


In this case, [A] is the same function as [2] in the case above, but
without first applying [1].

[B] is a separate patch from a different source and is on the
<http://nix.lauft.net/mailman/> site only for reference. It could be
applied instead of [A], not in addition.


>In both cases I've had to extensively edit the patches (paths etc) to
>apply correctly to the source on my system and they don't work with
>Debain sources either.


Patch [1] should apply cleanly to the 2.1.7 release, and patch [2] on
top of that. If your 2.1.7 sources are different, then there is no
telling what may happen.


>On top of that the sheer lack of documentation (especially if you're a
>sysadmin and not a python developer) is quite confusing. I haven't found
>any of the related sites (see below) to be of that much more use either.
>And where there is documentation related to mailman and exim, I've
>followed the instructions to the letter in terms of virtualhosts and
>still have no luck.


In fairness to Hans, this is a work in progress. You may find the
entire thread at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2006-March/018589.html>
to be of interest.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 00:54:59 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:54:59 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] follow-up to previous posts,
	exim + mailman + virtualhosts
In-Reply-To: <441EE322.5010600@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603201554590843b58f31a6@msapiro>

Bretton Vine wrote:

>My requirements are for an installation of mailman and exim on a single
>server to provide the following functionality:
>
>1. Same named lists, separate lists across domains namely:
>
>   --> listname at domain1.co.za
>   --> listname at domain2.co.za
>
>2. Domain name independent configuration of lists
>
>   i.e. listname at domain1.co.za is administered at
>        http://lists.domain1.co.za/mailman/listname
>
>        listname at domain2.co.za is administered at
>        http://lists.domain2.co.za/mailman/listname
>
>Can anyone tell me if this is (a) practical and (b) possible, with or
>without patches etc.


Mailman can't do this without some kind of patching unless every
listname is unique, but it should be possible with patches.


>If so, where could I find the relevant
>documentation on to do it? Can the config be setup in mailman or is some
>magic required with regards DNS, Apache (rewrite, redirect, alias
>directives etc) and Exim.


Assuming the different domains exist and are already separate in
Apache, I don't think you need any DNS changes. You need the standard
alias and scriptalias directives in Apache. You can have one set that
applies to all domains or separate sets for each virtual domain that
will support Mailman.

The patches you are looking at from <http://nix.lauft.net/mailman/> are
apparently for a postfix installation. You can look at the patch to
the modules in Mailman/MTA to see what is done to support this in
postfix, but you're on your own to translate this into the necessary
Transport and Router changes for exim.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 01:37:41 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 16:37:41 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Approving large messages results in MemoryError
	[solved]
In-Reply-To: <20060320205353.244A0F0422@dory.hackwerk.net>
Message-ID: <PC174020060320163741075029895e17@msapiro>

Peter Veerman wrote:
>
>As i have seen quite a lot of messages with alike errors without any
>solution it might be interesting to add this to your FAQ?

I just added
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq06.018.htp>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From demonveen at gmail.com  Tue Mar 21 02:01:44 2006
From: demonveen at gmail.com (daniel trejo)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 19:01:44 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] can I modify the handler Decorate.py?
Message-ID: <997503340603201701u4779b75fx@mail.gmail.com>

Can I modify the content of Decorate.py Handler so it doesnt uencode the
header? If that's so , what should I do for this changes to take effect?


From rmraineypostmaster at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 21 02:22:17 2006
From: rmraineypostmaster at earthlink.net (Michael Rainey)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 18:22:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] No mail going out to list members
Message-ID: <C044A359.955A%rmraineypostmaster@earthlink.net>


Mailman 2.1.4

I have looked at 3.14. Troubleshooting: No mail going out to lists members
but most if it I do not understand, sorry.

I have two lists, 
Ist list  is not moderated, all working OK
2nd list is one way announcement, no mail going out except notifications
(subscribe, unsubscribe, bounces) which are OK

To attempt to make up for my lack of knowledge re FAQ 3.14

I have looked in my mail log

For 1st list which is OK  for successful use this date I find:
sendmail[3924]: k2L070dX003912: to="|/var/mailman/mail/mailman post
MyListName", ctladdr=<My1stListName at Domain.name> (8/0), delay=00:00:01,
xdelay=00:00:00, mailer=prog, pri=40321, dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent


For 2nd list which is not OK I find lots of My2ndListName bounces but
nothing showing sendmail to My2ndListName as above.

I am unsuccessful with 2nd list regardless of whether I use password or mod
flag off for myself.

I was hoping someone might be able to narrow down the FAQ 3.14 possibilities
else I am totally lost.

Thank you,


Michael Rainey


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 02:34:46 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 17:34:46 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] can I modify the handler Decorate.py?
In-Reply-To: <997503340603201701u4779b75fx@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603201734460500b1173042@msapiro>

daniel trejo wrote:

>Can I modify the content of Decorate.py Handler so it doesnt uencode the
>header? If that's so , what should I do for this changes to take effect?


You can make any changes you want to the installed
Mailman/Handlers/Decorate.py, and they will be effective when you do

bin/mailmanctl restart

Whether your changes will accomplish what you want is another question.
Without knowing what you plan to change and what you want to
accomplish, I can't comment further.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 02:46:06 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 17:46:06 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] No mail going out to list members
In-Reply-To: <C044A359.955A%rmraineypostmaster@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603201746060078922776b4@msapiro>

Michael Rainey wrote:
>
>Mailman 2.1.4
>
>I have looked at 3.14. Troubleshooting: No mail going out to lists members
>but most if it I do not understand, sorry.
>
>I have two lists, 
>Ist list  is not moderated, all working OK
>2nd list is one way announcement, no mail going out except notifications
>(subscribe, unsubscribe, bounces) which are OK


So what's with 'bounces' if no posts are going out, what's getting
returned to the list-bounces address, or do you mean attempted posts
being rejected (bounced back to the sender)?


>To attempt to make up for my lack of knowledge re FAQ 3.14
>
>I have looked in my mail log
>
>For 1st list which is OK  for successful use this date I find:
>sendmail[3924]: k2L070dX003912: to="|/var/mailman/mail/mailman post
>MyListName", ctladdr=<My1stListName at Domain.name> (8/0), delay=00:00:01,
>xdelay=00:00:00, mailer=prog, pri=40321, dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent
>
>
>For 2nd list which is not OK I find lots of My2ndListName bounces but
>nothing showing sendmail to My2ndListName as above.


So sendmail is bouncing posts back as undeliverable? do you have
sendmail aliases for the various My2ndListName addresses as in item 2)
of the FAQ?


>I am unsuccessful with 2nd list regardless of whether I use password or mod
>flag off for myself.

What happens to your post attempt? Does it evaporate? Is it returned to
you? If returned, what does the return say?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 02:57:12 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 17:57:12 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving of website
In-Reply-To: <441DC03D.000007.01408@WIN2K>
Message-ID: <PC174020060320175712032829895c54@msapiro>

Tom Wills wrote:

>I want to move my site to a different host. However, I don't see how I can 
>move the mailman folders from one host to another. When I backup my files 
>from the host, I see the mailman folders. But for me to upload them, I can't
>
>drill down far enough on the new host to ftp them over. Is there a way to 
>import all my archives from one host to another??? 


So what you are asking is if you don't have sufficient access to the
new host to put your old archives there, is there a way around it?

You only have to move the archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox
file and run "bin/arch --wipe listname" to rebuild the archives for
each list. If you don't have sufficient access to the new host to do
this, can you get one of the admins there to do it for you?

If not, the only alternative that I know is to create the list on the
new host without any members and then send each archived post one at a
time to the new list to build an archive, and this wouldn't do a very
good job of preserving things like dates and senders. I'd go back to
the previous paragraph.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dfilchak at sympatico.ca  Tue Mar 21 02:41:28 2006
From: dfilchak at sympatico.ca (Dave Filchak)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 20:41:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] A wee bit of help
Message-ID: <441F59C8.6000302@sympatico.ca>

Hello all,

I need just a wee bit of help. I have just set up Mailman on my
secondary mail server host and the installation all is well I believe. I
am trying to set the list so that it is in the form of
list at somedomain.com. This domain is a domain that we host both web and
mail for. However, I can see an issue with this in that if I send an
email to the list using list at somedomain.com, the email will go to my
main mail server which does not have this list on it, nor does it have
the user list or list-bounces, nor any of the other required users for
the list to operate properly.  I have all the required aliases on my
secondary mail server but do I need some sort of alias in my file on the
main mail server to point these emails back to the secondary server?  I
get a user unknown error for the user lists and of course lists-bounce
when I send an email to it. By the way, I am also trying to set this up
as a one way or newsletter list. If I send an email to
lists at actualhostname.com, I get a "Sorry, only the site administrator
can post to this list." which means I am communicating with the new
list, although I should not be getting this message as the email I sent
it through is in the admin list on Mailman.

Any help with this would most sincerely be appreciated.

TIA


Dave


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 03:28:00 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 18:28:00 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrading Mailman 2.1.5 to 2.1.7 FC3
In-Reply-To: <39128.80.212.52.103.1142800716.squirrel@hkskole.no>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603201828000859922779bb@msapiro>

pal at hkskole.no wrote:

>I have installed Mailman 2.1.5 on a Fedora core 3 box. I installed from
>RPM. Tha last version for FC3 is 2.1.5, but I'd like to upgrade to 2.1.7.
>Is there an easy way to do this? Anyone who have done this successfully?


John Dennis from Red Hat often has things to say about Red Hat issues,
but he doesn't seem to be active on the list right now.

First, I'd wait for 2.1.8. It will be out soon and has several bug
fixes.

Second, upgrading from source is easy. It's just a matter of getting
the configure options right and running 'configure' with those options
and 'make install'. You want to stop Mailman and probably your MTA and
web server during 'make install' - read the UPGRADING document in the
distribution. Also, you can look at the installation manual in the
distribution in the admin/www/ directory or on line at
<http://www.list.org/mailman-install/index.html>. For an upgrade,
you're mostly concerned with section 3, as the rest of the steps are
already done.

The tricky part is Red Hat in an effort to be standards compliant has
split things up into directories in ways that I *think* involve more
than can be handled with just the

--prefix,
--exec-prefix and
--with-var-prefix

options. The good news, is I *think* you can probably set these three
appropriately so that things will work.

There is at least one other tricky thing in that I think Red Hat has
patched mailmanctl to support a 'status' option that one of their
scripts uses. See
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2005-May/044898.html>
and
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1208685&group_id=103&atid=300103>.

You will probably want to run configure and then look at the configured
Defaults.py and diff it with the 2.1.5 installed one to get an idea if
any configure options need to be changed. You can run configure any
number of times without affecting your 2.1.5 installation which will
only be changed when you finally run 'make install'.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 03:38:39 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 18:38:39 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] A wee bit of help
In-Reply-To: <441F59C8.6000302@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603201838390375afeb479e@msapiro>

Dave Filchak wrote:
>
>I am trying to set the list so that it is in the form of
>list at somedomain.com. This domain is a domain that we host both web and
>mail for. However, I can see an issue with this in that if I send an
>email to the list using list at somedomain.com, the email will go to my
>main mail server which does not have this list on it, nor does it have
>the user list or list-bounces, nor any of the other required users for
>the list to operate properly.  I have all the required aliases on my
>secondary mail server but do I need some sort of alias in my file on the
>main mail server to point these emails back to the secondary server?


Yes.


>I
>get a user unknown error for the user lists and of course lists-bounce
>when I send an email to it. By the way, I am also trying to set this up
>as a one way or newsletter list. If I send an email to
>lists at actualhostname.com, I get a "Sorry, only the site administrator
>can post to this list." which means I am communicating with the new
>list, although I should not be getting this message as the email I sent
>it through is in the admin list on Mailman.


This is your member_moderation_notice or nonmember_rejection_notice,
right? You probably should be getting it. See my post on this subject
from earlier today at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-March/050053.html>.
The same things apply to owner addresses as to moderator addresses.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From rmraineypostmaster at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 21 03:27:16 2006
From: rmraineypostmaster at earthlink.net (Michael Rainey)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 19:27:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] No mail going out to list members
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603201746060078922776b4@msapiro>
Message-ID: <C044B294.9564%rmraineypostmaster@earthlink.net>

on 3/20/06 6:46 PM, Mark Sapiro at msapiro at value.net wrote:

> Michael Rainey wrote:
>> 
>> Mailman 2.1.4
>> 
>> I have looked at 3.14. Troubleshooting: No mail going out to lists members
>> but most if it I do not understand, sorry.
>> 
>> I have two lists,
>> Ist list  is not moderated, all working OK
>> 2nd list is one way announcement, no mail going out except notifications
>> (subscribe, unsubscribe, bounces) which are OK
> 
> 
> So what's with 'bounces' if no posts are going out, what's getting
> returned to the list-bounces address, or do you mean attempted posts
> being rejected (bounced back to the sender)?
Actually all from:
Unsubscribed notices (When admin unsubscribe them)
Subscribe confirmations (to new subscriber and confirm to admin

Attempted posts are not bounced as I had set "discard"
I was going to set to hold and try again but have not yet done so.
> 
> 
>> To attempt to make up for my lack of knowledge re FAQ 3.14
>> 
>> I have looked in my mail log
>> 
>> For 1st list which is OK  for successful use this date I find:
>> sendmail[3924]: k2L070dX003912: to="|/var/mailman/mail/mailman post
>> MyListName", ctladdr=<My1stListName at Domain.name> (8/0), delay=00:00:01,
>> xdelay=00:00:00, mailer=prog, pri=40321, dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent
>> 
>> 
>> For 2nd list which is not OK I find lots of My2ndListName bounces but
>> nothing showing sendmail to My2ndListName as above.
> 
> 
> So sendmail is bouncing posts back as undeliverable? do you have
> sendmail aliases for the various My2ndListName addresses as in item 2)
> of the FAQ?
Don't think that is quite right, example is
> 
> 
>> I am unsuccessful with 2nd list regardless of whether I use password or mod
>> flag off for myself.
> 
> What happens to your post attempt? Does it evaporate? Is it returned to
> you? If returned, what does the return say?
Evaporating

However on closer look at mail log I find for malfunctioning list:
sendmail[1824]: k2KKr0dL001820: to="|/var/mailman/mail/mailman request
My2ndListName", ctladdr=<My2ndListName-request at Domain.name> (8/0),
delay=00:00:01, xdelay=00:00:00, mailer=prog, pri=32372, dsn=2.0.0,
stat=Sent

WHERE <<My2ndListName-request at Domain.name> COULD BE CULPRIT AS SHOULD IT NOT
BE <My2ndListNamet at Domain.name> WITHOUT "-REQUEST"?

If that is it, where does <My2ndListName-request at Domain.name> reside that I
might correct it?

Am I even close?


Thanks,

Michel Rainey



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 05:04:58 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 20:04:58 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] No mail going out to list members
In-Reply-To: <C044B294.9564%rmraineypostmaster@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603202004580093b1172eb7@msapiro>

Michael Rainey wrote:

>However on closer look at mail log I find for malfunctioning list:
>sendmail[1824]: k2KKr0dL001820: to="|/var/mailman/mail/mailman request
>My2ndListName", ctladdr=<My2ndListName-request at Domain.name> (8/0),
>delay=00:00:01, xdelay=00:00:00, mailer=prog, pri=32372, dsn=2.0.0,
>stat=Sent
>
>WHERE <<My2ndListName-request at Domain.name> COULD BE CULPRIT AS SHOULD IT NOT
>BE <My2ndListNamet at Domain.name> WITHOUT "-REQUEST"?


Not necessarily. All that says is a message was sent to the -request
address - maybe a subscribe or unsubscribe request.


>If that is it, where does <My2ndListName-request at Domain.name> reside that I
>might correct it?


Suppose you send a blank message with subject of HELP to
My2ndListName-request at Domain.name. Do you get a reply to that?

Even if your post attempts were somehow invisibly redirected to the
My2ndListName-request at Domain.name address, you should get a reply.

What is in your Mailman logs?

grep -i my2ndlistname /etc/aliases

show?

What does the same grep show in your maillog?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 05:48:49 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 20:48:49 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Automated subscription off AD,
	or a 3rd party application/output
In-Reply-To: <75CF552F30ECFA439D9B3008906F2A374340CF@STAWINCOMAILCL1.staff.vuw.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032020484902186be6d78b@msapiro>

Steven Jones wrote:
>
>Is there something ready made for this sort of job?


If you don't mind embedding the list password in the application, you
can do this by posting to the admin mass subscribe function with wget.
See the thread at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2004-December/041209.html>.

There's also been some work on an XML-RPC interface. See the whole
thread at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2005-July/018149.html>


>Otherwise I thought maybe a script that scp's a flat file over from the
>remote app and runs it into a list....


You could write an input file for bin/add_members.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 05:59:50 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 20:59:50 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] A wee bit of help
In-Reply-To: <441F7DBC.7060208@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <PC174020060320205950087521b2887d@msapiro>

Dave Filchak wrote:

>Well, the email address I was trying to send it from was a member and I
>still got the notice that only admin types were allowed to post.


If it is a moderated member, it will get the same
member_moderation_notice as any other moderated member. The fact that
it's an owner is irrelevant.


>Not
>sure what is up with that


Did you read the post at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-March/050053.html>
and the FAQs it references?


>but as far as the alias on the main mail
>server, would just be a normal:
>
>    list   list at secondarymail.com
>
>type of alias?


I suppose it might depend on the MTA, but I think that plus the other 9
list-* addresses.

The alternative is just to publicize the list at secondarymail.com
addresses if they work from outside.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dfilchak at sympatico.ca  Tue Mar 21 06:23:43 2006
From: dfilchak at sympatico.ca (Dave Filchak)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 00:23:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Continuing problem
Message-ID: <441F8DDF.5000204@sympatico.ca>

OK .. I am having a hell of a time trying to get this working so would
very much appreciate a helping hand from someone with more experience
with Mailman than I.

Here is what I want to happen:

I want to have a one-way list (Newsletter). I have set this up so that
everyone is moderated and I have three email address in the moderators
and admin slots. All of these users are members of the list. I want to
be able to send an email from one of the admin or moderator users to
listname at clientdomain.com. clientdomain.com is not the same domain as
the servers but it is a domain we host web and mail for.

Here is what I have so far:

The list is set up on the secondary mail server. The list set up went
without a hitch and Mailman emailed me the following aliases to add to
the aliases file, which I did and ran newaliases.

   
turningpoints:              "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post
turningpoints"
turningpoints-admin:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman admin
turningpoints"
turningpoints-bounces:      "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces
turningpoints"
turningpoints-confirm:      "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman confirm
turningpoints"
turningpoints-join:         "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman join
turningpoints"
turningpoints-leave:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman leave
turningpoints"
turningpoints-owner:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman owner
turningpoints"
turningpoints-request:      "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman request
turningpoints"
turningpoints-subscribe:    "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe
turningpoints"
turningpoints-unsubscribe:  "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman
unsubscribe turningpoints"

I also added to the alias file on the main mail server, the following:


turningpoints:              "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post
turningpoints"
turningpoints-admin:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman admin
turningpoints"
turningpoints-bounces:      "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces
turningpoints"
turningpoints-confirm:      "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman confirm
turningpoints"
turningpoints-join:         "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman join
turningpoints"
turningpoints-leave:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman leave
turningpoints"
turningpoints-owner:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman owner
turningpoints"
turningpoints-request:      "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman request
turningpoints"
turningpoints-subscribe:    "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe
turningpoints"
turningpoints-unsubscribe:  "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman
unsubscribe turningpoints"

so that when sending to the clients domain, the main server did not
reject the user as unknown.

No matter what I do, when I send an email to either
turningpoints at secondarymailserver.net or turningpoints at clientdomain.net,
I receive a bounce message saying that only admins are allowed to post
to the list, of which the email I sent the original post from is a
member. I have even tried removing the moderated bit for that particular
email address with the same result.

What the hell am I missing??

TIA
Dave


From dfilchak at sympatico.ca  Tue Mar 21 06:41:11 2006
From: dfilchak at sympatico.ca (Dave Filchak)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 00:41:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Continuing problem
In-Reply-To: <441F8DDF.5000204@sympatico.ca>
References: <441F8DDF.5000204@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <441F91F7.80401@sympatico.ca>

Ok .. I know now what I was missing ... brain cells is what! It never
occurred to me that I had to approve the messages I was sending because
I never expected that if my email address was in the admin list that I
would still get the bounce message. That was wrong. So that is not such
a big deal although I would like it if I didn't get the bounce message
but I though there was a way to pass an Approved flag with the list
password in order to circumvent the moderation thing. I tried to add
Approved: <listpassword> to the subject line and as well as the first
line of the email with an empty line after it but the message still gets
held for moderator approval. What am I doing wrong with that?

Sorry for my dull head with the moderator thing.

Cheers

Dave

Dave Filchak wrote:
> OK .. I am having a hell of a time trying to get this working so would
> very much appreciate a helping hand from someone with more experience
> with Mailman than I.
>
> Here is what I want to happen:
>
> I want to have a one-way list (Newsletter). I have set this up so that
> everyone is moderated and I have three email address in the moderators
> and admin slots. All of these users are members of the list. I want to
> be able to send an email from one of the admin or moderator users to
> listname at clientdomain.com. clientdomain.com is not the same domain as
> the servers but it is a domain we host web and mail for.
>
> Here is what I have so far:
>
> The list is set up on the secondary mail server. The list set up went
> without a hitch and Mailman emailed me the following aliases to add to
> the aliases file, which I did and ran newaliases.
>
>    
> turningpoints:              "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post
> turningpoints"
> turningpoints-admin:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman admin
> turningpoints"
> turningpoints-bounces:      "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces
> turningpoints"
> turningpoints-confirm:      "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman confirm
> turningpoints"
> turningpoints-join:         "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman join
> turningpoints"
> turningpoints-leave:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman leave
> turningpoints"
> turningpoints-owner:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman owner
> turningpoints"
> turningpoints-request:      "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman request
> turningpoints"
> turningpoints-subscribe:    "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe
> turningpoints"
> turningpoints-unsubscribe:  "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman
> unsubscribe turningpoints"
>
> I also added to the alias file on the main mail server, the following:
>
>
> turningpoints:              "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post
> turningpoints"
> turningpoints-admin:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman admin
> turningpoints"
> turningpoints-bounces:      "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces
> turningpoints"
> turningpoints-confirm:      "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman confirm
> turningpoints"
> turningpoints-join:         "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman join
> turningpoints"
> turningpoints-leave:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman leave
> turningpoints"
> turningpoints-owner:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman owner
> turningpoints"
> turningpoints-request:      "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman request
> turningpoints"
> turningpoints-subscribe:    "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe
> turningpoints"
> turningpoints-unsubscribe:  "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman
> unsubscribe turningpoints"
>
> so that when sending to the clients domain, the main server did not
> reject the user as unknown.
>
> No matter what I do, when I send an email to either
> turningpoints at secondarymailserver.net or turningpoints at clientdomain.net,
> I receive a bounce message saying that only admins are allowed to post
> to the list, of which the email I sent the original post from is a
> member. I have even tried removing the moderated bit for that particular
> email address with the same result.
>
> What the hell am I missing??
>
> TIA
> Dave
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/dfilchak%40sympatico.ca
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>
>   


From dfilchak at sympatico.ca  Tue Mar 21 06:48:26 2006
From: dfilchak at sympatico.ca (Dave Filchak)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 00:48:26 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Continuing problem
In-Reply-To: <441F91F7.80401@sympatico.ca>
References: <441F8DDF.5000204@sympatico.ca> <441F91F7.80401@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <441F93AA.2070004@sympatico.ca>

Also sorry for not snipping my last post.  ;-(

Dave Filchak wrote:
> Ok .. I know now what I was missing ... brain cells is what! It never
> occurred to me that I had to approve the messages I was sending because
> I never expected that if my email address was in the admin list that I
> would still get the bounce message. That was wrong. So that is not such
> a big deal although I would like it if I didn't get the bounce message
> but I though there was a way to pass an Approved flag with the list
> password in order to circumvent the moderation thing. I tried to add
> Approved: <listpassword> to the subject line and as well as the first
> line of the email with an empty line after it but the message still gets
> held for moderator approval. What am I doing wrong with that?
>
> Sorry for my dull head with the moderator thing.
>
> Cheers
>
> Dave
>
> <snip>


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 06:57:53 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:57:53 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Continuing problem
In-Reply-To: <441F8DDF.5000204@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603202157530593922778e6@msapiro>

Dave Filchak wrote:

>OK .. I am having a hell of a time trying to get this working so would
>very much appreciate a helping hand from someone with more experience
>with Mailman than I.
>
>Here is what I want to happen:
>
>I want to have a one-way list (Newsletter). I have set this up so that
>everyone is moderated and I have three email address in the moderators
>and admin slots. All of these users are members of the list. I want to
>be able to send an email from one of the admin or moderator users to
>listname at clientdomain.com. clientdomain.com is not the same domain as
>the servers but it is a domain we host web and mail for.
>
>Here is what I have so far:
>
>The list is set up on the secondary mail server. The list set up went
>without a hitch and Mailman emailed me the following aliases to add to
>the aliases file, which I did and ran newaliases.
>
>   
>turningpoints:              "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post
>turningpoints"
>turningpoints-admin:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman admin
>turningpoints"

<snip>
>I also added to the alias file on the main mail server, the following:
>
>
>turningpoints:              "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post
>turningpoints"
>turningpoints-admin:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman admin
>turningpoints"
<snip>
>
>so that when sending to the clients domain, the main server did not
>reject the user as unknown.



The main server group above are wrong. They say that mail to (for
example) turningpoints at main.server should be piped to
/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman on the main server which probably
doesn't exist.

Thet should probably be

turningpoints:              turningpoints at secondary.server
turningpoints-admin:        turningpoints-admin at secondary.server

and so on for the other 8

>No matter what I do, when I send an email to either
>turningpoints at secondarymailserver.net or turningpoints at clientdomain.net,
If turningpoints at clientdomain.net works at all, you either have mailman
installed on that machine or the aliases on that machine are not what
you said.


>I receive a bounce message saying that only admins are allowed to post
>to the list, of which the email I sent the original post from is a
>member. I have even tried removing the moderated bit for that particular
>email address with the same result.
>
>What the hell am I missing??


See next reply.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dfilchak at sympatico.ca  Tue Mar 21 07:10:04 2006
From: dfilchak at sympatico.ca (Dave Filchak)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 01:10:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Continuing problem
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603202157530593922778e6@msapiro>
References: <PC1740200603202157530593922778e6@msapiro>
Message-ID: <441F98BC.2090200@sympatico.ca>

Crap .. sorry .. must have mis-pasted, if that is a word!

What I actually have on the main server is:

turningpoints:              turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
turningpoints-admin:        turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
turningpoints-bounces:      turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
turningpoints-confirm:      turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
turningpoints-join:         turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
turningpoints-leave:        turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
turningpoints-owner:        turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
turningpoints-request:      turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
turningpoints-subscribe:    turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
turningpoints-unsubscribe:  turningpoints at secondaryserver.net

Dave



Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Dave Filchak wrote:
>
>   
>> OK .. I am having a hell of a time trying to get this working so would
>> very much appreciate a helping hand from someone with more experience
>> with Mailman than I.
>>
>> Here is what I want to happen:
>>
>> I want to have a one-way list (Newsletter). I have set this up so that
>> everyone is moderated and I have three email address in the moderators
>> and admin slots. All of these users are members of the list. I want to
>> be able to send an email from one of the admin or moderator users to
>> listname at clientdomain.com. clientdomain.com is not the same domain as
>> the servers but it is a domain we host web and mail for.
>>
>> Here is what I have so far:
>>
>> The list is set up on the secondary mail server. The list set up went
>> without a hitch and Mailman emailed me the following aliases to add to
>> the aliases file, which I did and ran newaliases.
>>
>>   
>>     
> <snip>
>   
>
>
>
> The main server group above are wrong. They say that mail to (for
> example) turningpoints at main.server should be piped to
> /usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman on the main server which probably
> doesn't exist.
>
> Thet should probably be
>
> turningpoints:              turningpoints at secondary.server
> turningpoints-admin:        turningpoints-admin at secondary.server
>
> and so on for the other 8
>
>   
>> No matter what I do, when I send an email to either
>> turningpoints at secondarymailserver.net or turningpoints at clientdomain.net,
>>     
> If turningpoints at clientdomain.net works at all, you either have mailman
> installed on that machine or the aliases on that machine are not what
> you said.
>
>
>   
>> I receive a bounce message saying that only admins are allowed to post
>> to the list, of which the email I sent the original post from is a
>> member. I have even tried removing the moderated bit for that particular
>> email address with the same result.
>>
>> What the hell am I missing??
>>     
>
>
> See next reply.
>
>   


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 07:15:20 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 22:15:20 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Continuing problem
In-Reply-To: <441F91F7.80401@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <PC174020060320221520089065b6f7ee@msapiro>

Dave Filchak wrote:

>I tried to add
>Approved: <listpassword> to the subject line and as well as the first
>line of the email with an empty line after it but the message still gets
>held for moderator approval. What am I doing wrong with that?

It won't work in the subject. It needs to be an actual message header
or the first non-blank line in the first text/plain part of the
message. Does it get removed from the message you post? If so, it's in
the right place, but the password is wrong. It must be the list admin
or list moderator password (without <>), not your member password.

If it is not getting removed from the message, then it isn't the first
non-blank line in the first text/plain part.

It doesn't need to be followed by a blank line to work, but prior to
Mailman 2.1.7, the first line remaining after the Approved: line was
removed was also removed, so info would be lost if that line wasn't
blank. Also, starting in 2.1.7 an effort is made to remove the
Approved: line from alternative parts, but it still has to be in the
first text/plain part to be recognized at all.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 07:29:23 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 22:29:23 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Continuing problem
In-Reply-To: <441F98BC.2090200@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <PC174020060320222923067193e56736@msapiro>

Dave Filchak wrote:

>Crap .. sorry .. must have mis-pasted, if that is a word!
>
>What I actually have on the main server is:
>
>turningpoints:              turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
>turningpoints-admin:        turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
>turningpoints-bounces:      turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
>turningpoints-confirm:      turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
>turningpoints-join:         turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
>turningpoints-leave:        turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
>turningpoints-owner:        turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
>turningpoints-request:      turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
>turningpoints-subscribe:    turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
>turningpoints-unsubscribe:  turningpoints at secondaryserver.net


It should be

turningpoints:             turningpoints at secondaryserver.net
turningpoints-admin:       turningpoints-admin at secondaryserver.net
turningpoints-bounces:     turningpoints-bounces at secondaryserver.net
turningpoints-confirm:     turningpoints-confirm at secondaryserver.net
turningpoints-join:        turningpoints-join at secondaryserver.net
turningpoints-leave:       turningpoints-leave at secondaryserver.net
turningpoints-owner:       turningpoints-owner at secondaryserver.net
turningpoints-request:     turningpoints-request at secondaryserver.net
turningpoints-subscribe:   turningpoints-subscribe at secondaryserver.net
turningpoints-unsubscribe: turningpoints-unsubscribe at secondaryserver.net


Or if your MTA supports such a thing, just the one

turningpoints(-.*)?:  turningpoints\1 at secondaryserver.net

or whatever the correct syntax if any is in your case.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dfilchak at sympatico.ca  Tue Mar 21 08:00:27 2006
From: dfilchak at sympatico.ca (Dave Filchak)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 02:00:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Continuing problem
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060320222923067193e56736@msapiro>
References: <PC174020060320222923067193e56736@msapiro>
Message-ID: <441FA48B.9040706@sympatico.ca>

Yeah, I missed that. Thanks. Almost there now. I really do appreciate
your patience. I will work on that sending Approve + password thing
tomorrow as its not a huge deal. However, one thing that still is. I
have configured the reply to in a way that I thought that the end user
would see a reply-to address in the headers that was not a reply to the
list. I have set the following:

Hide the sender of a message, replacing it with the list address
(Removes From, Sender and Reply-To fields): yes
Should any existing Reply-To: header found in the original message be
stripped? If so, this will be done regardless of whether an explicit
Reply-To: header is added by Mailman or not. : no
Where are replies to list messages directed? Poster is /strongly/
recommended for most mailing lists. : Explicit Address
Explicit Reply-To: header.: newsletter at clientdomain.com

However I still see:

From: turningpoints at clientdomain.com
Reply-to: turningpoints at clientdomain.com

Should the reply-to address not be newsletter at clientdomain.com?

Thanks again,

Dave

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Dave Filchak wrote:
>
>   
>> <snip>
>   


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 16:53:31 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 07:53:31 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Continuing problem
In-Reply-To: <441FA48B.9040706@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032107533101403366616b@msapiro>

Dave Filchak wrote:

>However, one thing that still is. I
>have configured the reply to in a way that I thought that the end user
>would see a reply-to address in the headers that was not a reply to the
>list. I have set the following:
>
>Hide the sender of a message, replacing it with the list address
>(Removes From, Sender and Reply-To fields): yes
>Should any existing Reply-To: header found in the original message be
>stripped? If so, this will be done regardless of whether an explicit
>Reply-To: header is added by Mailman or not. : no


This should probably be 'Yes'. Since you (or only a few authorized
posters) are doing the posting and you probably don't want to get the
replies, you should strip out any incoming Reply-To: which may have
the poster's address.


>Where are replies to list messages directed? Poster is /strongly/
>recommended for most mailing lists. : Explicit Address


Are you sure you have this? It is acting as if you have "This list".


>Explicit Reply-To: header.: newsletter at clientdomain.com
>
>However I still see:
>
>From: turningpoints at clientdomain.com
>Reply-to: turningpoints at clientdomain.com
>
>Should the reply-to address not be newsletter at clientdomain.com?

Yes.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Tue Mar 21 19:32:59 2006
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:32:59 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error - traceback
Message-ID: <442046DB.8080108@washburn.edu>

I keep receiving this error and cannot determine why.  Can someone help me?

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", line 270, in ?
    main()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", line 230, in main
    qrunner.run()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 70, in run
    filecnt = self._oneloop()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 99, in _oneloop
    msg, msgdata = self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 143, in
dequeue
    fp = open(filename)
IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory:
'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/bounces/11429604                            
     39.447984+fc08b5ba5bce8de3f6f63c1227ee942197f02e0d.pck'

-- 

Jewel



From rgrams at kictribe.org  Tue Mar 21 19:24:17 2006
From: rgrams at kictribe.org (Rick G)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 09:24:17 -0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
	appear to be the issue
In-Reply-To: <001701c58984$64330200$010aa8c0@Onetomarket.nl>
Message-ID: <070901c64d14$ae345df0$4b01630a@kic.kictribe.org>


Advise please.


Bug in Mailman version 2.1.4


We're sorry, we hit a bug!


If you would like to help us identify the problem, please email a copy of
this page to the webmaster for this site with a description of what
happened. Thanks! 


Traceback:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/driver", line 87, in run_main
    main()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py", line 236, in main
    print doc.Format()
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 331, in Format
    output.append(Container.Format(self, indent))
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 264, in Format
    output.append(HTMLFormatObject(item, indent))
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 50, in
HTMLFormatObject
    return item.Format(indent)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 417, in Format
    output = output + Container.Format(self, indent+2)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 264, in Format
    output.append(HTMLFormatObject(item, indent))
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 50, in
HTMLFormatObject
    return item.Format(indent)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 200, in Format
    output = output + self.FormatRow(i, indent + 2)
MemoryError
 
 
  _____  


Python information:


Variable

Value


sys.version

2.3.3 (#1, Jan 9 2004, 18:28:44) [GCC 2.95.3 20010315 (release) [FreeBSD]] 


sys.executable

/usr/local/bin/python2.3 


sys.prefix

/usr/local 


sys.exec_prefix

/usr/local 


sys.path

/usr/local 


sys.platform

freebsd4 

  _____  


Environment variables:


Variable

Value


HTTP_REFERER 

http://kictribe.org/mailman/admin/clinic 


SERVER_SOFTWARE 

Apache/1.3.33 (Unix) PHP/3.0.12 FrontPage/5.0.2.2510 


SCRIPT_NAME 

/mailman/admindb 


SERVER_SIGNATURE 

 


REQUEST_METHOD 

GET 


USER 

kictribe 


SERVER_PROTOCOL 

HTTP/1.1 


QUERY_STRING 

 


HTTP_USER_AGENT 

Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR
1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727) 


HTTP_CONNECTION 

Keep-Alive 


HTTP_COOKIE 

clinic+admin=2802000000691d4420447328000000386231333436646537633432383834343
56262373162376461636537623938386565396137616432 


SERVER_NAME 

kictribe.org 


REMOTE_ADDR 

12.146.34.130 


PATH_TRANSLATED 

/usr/local/etc/httpd/htdocs/clinic 


SERVER_PORT 

80 


SERVER_ADDR 

161.58.197.51 


DOCUMENT_ROOT 

/usr/local/etc/httpd/htdocs 


PYTHONPATH 

/usr/local/mailman 


SCRIPT_FILENAME 

/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/admindb 


SERVER_ADMIN 

webmaster at kictribe.org 


HTTP_HOST 

kictribe.org 


REQUEST_URI 

/mailman/admindb/clinic 


HTTP_ACCEPT 

image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg,
application/x-shockwave-flash, application/vnd.ms-excel,
application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, application/msword, */* 


GATEWAY_INTERFACE 

CGI/1.1 


REMOTE_PORT 

28304 


HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE 

en-us 


HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING 

gzip, deflate 


PATH_INFO 

/clinic 

 

 

Rick Grams



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 19:53:25 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:53:25 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error - traceback
In-Reply-To: <442046DB.8080108@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603211053250765f0a04d96@msapiro>

Jewel wrote:

>I keep receiving this error and cannot determine why.  Can someone help me?
>
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", line 270, in ?
>    main()
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner", line 230, in main
>    qrunner.run()
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 70, in run
>    filecnt = self._oneloop()
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 99, in _oneloop
>    msg, msgdata = self._switchboard.dequeue(filebase)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 143, in
>dequeue
>    fp = open(filename)
>IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory:
>'/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/bounces/11429604                            
>     39.447984+fc08b5ba5bce8de3f6f63c1227ee942197f02e0d.pck'


The most likely cause of this is more than one qrunner processing the
same slice of the same queue. This usually results from someone or
some script doing

bin/mailmanctl -s start

when Mailman is already running.

You need to stop all Mailman processes and then start Mailman once only.

First, as root, do

bin/mailmanctl stop

Then do

ps -fAww |grep python

or however you spell that for your system to see what Mailman processes
are still running. If you see a mailmanctl process, send it SIGTERM
with

kill -TERM <pid>

where <pid> is its pid from the ps output. Do this until there are no
more mailmanctl processes. At this point, if there are any qrunner
processes left, do the same for them until there are no Mailman
processes running at all. Then do

bin/mailmanctl start


-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 19:59:45 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:59:45 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does
	notappear to be the issue
In-Reply-To: <070901c64d14$ae345df0$4b01630a@kic.kictribe.org>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032110594505783865d42f@msapiro>

Rick G wrote:
>
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/driver", line 87, in run_main
>    main()
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py", line 236, in main
>    print doc.Format()
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 331, in Format
>    output.append(Container.Format(self, indent))
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 264, in Format
>    output.append(HTMLFormatObject(item, indent))
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 50, in
>HTMLFormatObject
>    return item.Format(indent)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 417, in Format
>    output = output + Container.Format(self, indent+2)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 264, in Format
>    output.append(HTMLFormatObject(item, indent))
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 50, in
>HTMLFormatObject
>    return item.Format(indent)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 200, in Format
>    output = output + self.FormatRow(i, indent + 2)
>MemoryError

Do you have a large number of outstanding requests on this list?

See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq06.018.htp>.
Let us know if that helps.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From rgrams at kictribe.org  Tue Mar 21 20:29:20 2006
From: rgrams at kictribe.org (Rick G)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:29:20 -0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
	appear to be the issue
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006032110594505783865d42f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <074001c64d1d$c57d6e80$4b01630a@kic.kictribe.org>

We did look for that - it does not exist in this situation.  Also, other
mailman lists are not having this problem.  Only this particular list when
we click on "Tend to pending moderator requests."

I think I have manually removed all of the messages for this list as well.
None of the messages were large in size at all - 217k or less.

Rick Grams


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:00 AM
To: Rick G; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does
notappear to be the issue

Rick G wrote:
>
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/driver", line 87, in run_main
>    main()
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py", line 236, in main
>    print doc.Format()
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 331, in Format
>    output.append(Container.Format(self, indent))
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 264, in Format
>    output.append(HTMLFormatObject(item, indent))
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 50, in
>HTMLFormatObject
>    return item.Format(indent)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 417, in Format
>    output = output + Container.Format(self, indent+2)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 264, in Format
>    output.append(HTMLFormatObject(item, indent))
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 50, in
>HTMLFormatObject
>    return item.Format(indent)
>  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 200, in Format
>    output = output + self.FormatRow(i, indent + 2)
>MemoryError

Do you have a large number of outstanding requests on this list?

See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq06.018.htp>.
Let us know if that helps.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan





From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 20:40:41 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 11:40:41 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
	appear to be the issue
In-Reply-To: <074001c64d1d$c57d6e80$4b01630a@kic.kictribe.org>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032111404103283ad49d91@msapiro>

Rick G wrote:

>We did look for that - it does not exist in this situation.  Also, other
>mailman lists are not having this problem.  Only this particular list when
>we click on "Tend to pending moderator requests."


I was guessing this was because there were a large number of requests
in this case.


>I think I have manually removed all of the messages for this list as well.
>None of the messages were large in size at all - 217k or less.


In this case, it isn't the size of the messages, but the size of the
web page that's being built.

What do you see if you do

bin/dumpdb lists/clinic/request.db

and

bin/dumpdb data/pending.pck

(and are these files big?)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From rgrams at kictribe.org  Tue Mar 21 20:52:33 2006
From: rgrams at kictribe.org (Rick G)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:52:33 -0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
	appear to be the issue
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006032111404103283ad49d91@msapiro>
Message-ID: <077a01c64d21$03ea8b00$4b01630a@kic.kictribe.org>

Further log review for the list:

This was a standard entry in the error log:
Mar 20 11:20:43 2006 post(89049): Traceback (most recent call last):
post(89049):   File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/mailowner", line 79, in ?
post(89049):      main()
post(89049):   File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/mailowner", line 55, in main
post(89049):      msg = Message.Message(sys.stdin)
post(89049): TypeError :  __init__() takes exactly 1 argument (2 given) 


Then it changed to this:
Mar 20 15:36:08 2006 admin(9074):
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 
admin(9074): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.4 -----] 
admin(9074): [----- Traceback ------] 
admin(9074): Traceback (most recent call last):
admin(9074):   File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/driver", line 87, in
run_main
admin(9074):     main()
admin(9074):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py", line 236,
in main
admin(9074):     print doc.Format()
admin(9074):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 331, in
Format
admin(9074):     output.append(Container.Format(self, indent))
admin(9074):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 264, in
Format
admin(9074):     output.append(HTMLFormatObject(item, indent))
admin(9074):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 50, in
HTMLFormatObject
admin(9074):     return item.Format(indent)
admin(9074):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 417, in
Format
admin(9074):     output = output + Container.Format(self, indent+2)
admin(9074):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 264, in
Format
admin(9074):     output.append(HTMLFormatObject(item, indent))
admin(9074):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 50, in
HTMLFormatObject
admin(9074):     return item.Format(indent)
admin(9074):   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/htmlformat.py", line 200, in
Format
admin(9074):     output = output + self.FormatRow(i, indent + 2)
admin(9074): MemoryError
admin(9074): [----- Python Information -----] 
admin(9074): sys.version     =   2.3.3 (#1, Jan  9 2004, 18:28:44) 
[GCC 2.95.3 20010315 (release) [FreeBSD]] 
admin(9074): sys.executable  =   /usr/local/bin/python2.3 
admin(9074): sys.prefix      =   /usr/local 
admin(9074): sys.exec_prefix =   /usr/local 
admin(9074): sys.path        =   /usr/local 
admin(9074): sys.platform    =   freebsd4 
admin(9074): [----- Environment Variables -----] 
admin(9074): 	HTTP_REFERER: http://kictribe.org/mailman/admin/clinic 
admin(9074): 	SERVER_SOFTWARE: Apache/1.3.33 (Unix) PHP/3.0.12
FrontPage/5.0.2.2510 
admin(9074): 	SCRIPT_NAME: /mailman/admindb 
admin(9074): 	SERVER_SIGNATURE:  
admin(9074): 	REQUEST_METHOD: GET 
admin(9074): 	HTTP_KEEP_ALIVE: 300 
admin(9074): 	SERVER_PROTOCOL: HTTP/1.1 
admin(9074): 	QUERY_STRING:  
admin(9074): 	HTTP_ACCEPT_CHARSET: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7 
admin(9074): 	HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1;
en-US; rv:1.8.0.1) Gecko/20060111 Firefox/1.5.0.1 
admin(9074): 	HTTP_CONNECTION: keep-alive 
admin(9074): 	HTTP_COOKIE:
clinic+admin=2802000000695f4a1f447328000000386231393734633864313935383562326
16565303939623464653561316637383033643263316462 
admin(9074): 	SERVER_NAME: kictribe.org 
admin(9074): 	REMOTE_ADDR: 12.146.34.130 
admin(9074): 	PATH_TRANSLATED: /usr/local/etc/httpd/htdocs/clinic 
admin(9074): 	SERVER_PORT: 80 
admin(9074): 	SERVER_ADDR: 161.58.197.51 
admin(9074): 	DOCUMENT_ROOT: /usr/local/etc/httpd/htdocs 
admin(9074): 	PATH_INFO: /clinic 
admin(9074): 	PYTHONPATH: /usr/local/mailman 
admin(9074): 	SCRIPT_FILENAME: /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/admindb 
admin(9074): 	SERVER_ADMIN: webmaster at kictribe.org 
admin(9074): 	HTTP_HOST: kictribe.org 
admin(9074): 	REQUEST_URI: /mailman/admindb/clinic 
admin(9074): 	HTTP_ACCEPT:
text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=
0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5 
admin(9074): 	GATEWAY_INTERFACE: CGI/1.1 
admin(9074): 	REMOTE_PORT: 6603 
admin(9074): 	HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE: en-us,en;q=0.5 
admin(9074): 	HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING: gzip,deflate

Rick Grams


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:41 AM
To: Rick G; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: RE: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
appear to be the issue

Rick G wrote:

>We did look for that - it does not exist in this situation.  Also, other
>mailman lists are not having this problem.  Only this particular list when
>we click on "Tend to pending moderator requests."


I was guessing this was because there were a large number of requests
in this case.


>I think I have manually removed all of the messages for this list as well.
>None of the messages were large in size at all - 217k or less.


In this case, it isn't the size of the messages, but the size of the
web page that's being built.

What do you see if you do

bin/dumpdb lists/clinic/request.db

and

bin/dumpdb data/pending.pck

(and are these files big?)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan





From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 21:34:33 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:34:33 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
	appear to be the issue
In-Reply-To: <077a01c64d21$03ea8b00$4b01630a@kic.kictribe.org>
Message-ID: <PC174020060321123433034384441ed8@msapiro>

Rick G wrote:
>
>This was a standard entry in the error log:
>Mar 20 11:20:43 2006 post(89049): Traceback (most recent call last):
>post(89049):   File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/mailowner", line 79, in ?
>post(89049):      main()
>post(89049):   File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/mailowner", line 55, in main
>post(89049):      msg = Message.Message(sys.stdin)
>post(89049): TypeError :  __init__() takes exactly 1 argument (2 given) 


This error has nothing to do with the other. It appears to be generated
by the process of posting a message to a list (i.e., the process
appears to be the 'post' wrapper), but a standard Mailman 2.1.4
installation has no script named mailowner. The posting script is
named 'post' and the deliver to -owner script is named 'owner'.

The statement

    msg = Message.Message(sys.stdin)

at line 55 in the mailowner script can't ever work. This is not
something that can work 'sometimes'. Message.Message() takes no
arguments, period, end of story.


What kind of installation is this?


>Then it changed to this:
>Mar 20 15:36:08 2006 admin(9074):
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 
>admin(9074): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.4 -----] 
>admin(9074): [----- Traceback ------] 
>admin(9074): Traceback (most recent call last):
>admin(9074):   File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/driver", line 87, in
>run_main
>admin(9074):     main()
<snip>

And this is a totally separate error which is that the admindb module
running as a cgi (and called from the admin page) encounters a
MemoryError exception in the process of trying to build the html web
page to display.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From rgrams at kictribe.org  Tue Mar 21 21:56:05 2006
From: rgrams at kictribe.org (Rick G)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 11:56:05 -0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
	appear to be the issue
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060321123433034384441ed8@msapiro>
Message-ID: <081201c64d29$e3523010$4b01630a@kic.kictribe.org>

Mailman is running on a FreeBSD server.

Rick Grams


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:35 AM
To: Rick G; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: RE: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
appear to be the issue

Rick G wrote:
>
>This was a standard entry in the error log:
>Mar 20 11:20:43 2006 post(89049): Traceback (most recent call last):
>post(89049):   File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/mailowner", line 79, in ?
>post(89049):      main()
>post(89049):   File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/mailowner", line 55, in
main
>post(89049):      msg = Message.Message(sys.stdin)
>post(89049): TypeError :  __init__() takes exactly 1 argument (2 given) 


This error has nothing to do with the other. It appears to be generated
by the process of posting a message to a list (i.e., the process
appears to be the 'post' wrapper), but a standard Mailman 2.1.4
installation has no script named mailowner. The posting script is
named 'post' and the deliver to -owner script is named 'owner'.

The statement

    msg = Message.Message(sys.stdin)

at line 55 in the mailowner script can't ever work. This is not
something that can work 'sometimes'. Message.Message() takes no
arguments, period, end of story.


What kind of installation is this?


>Then it changed to this:
>Mar 20 15:36:08 2006 admin(9074):
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 
>admin(9074): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.4 -----] 
>admin(9074): [----- Traceback ------] 
>admin(9074): Traceback (most recent call last):
>admin(9074):   File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/driver", line 87, in
>run_main
>admin(9074):     main()
<snip>

And this is a totally separate error which is that the admindb module
running as a cgi (and called from the admin page) encounters a
MemoryError exception in the process of trying to build the html web
page to display.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan





From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 22:12:54 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:12:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
	appear to be the issue
In-Reply-To: <081201c64d29$e3523010$4b01630a@kic.kictribe.org>
Message-ID: <PC174020060321131254035913b5ce7d@msapiro>

>Mailman is running on a FreeBSD server.

I meant is this installed from source, a package, what package, any
local mods, why is it (or was it on Mar 20 11:20:43 2006) apparently
running a Mailman 2.0.x mailowner script that doesn't exist in 2.1.x
when it identifies itself as 2.1.4?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From multimedia-fan at myrealbox.com  Tue Mar 21 22:26:43 2006
From: multimedia-fan at myrealbox.com (multimedia-fan at myrealbox.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:26:43 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] User Management.
In-Reply-To: <54na30tnmdnegbokeogts7ptktb9lvgqmh@4ax.com>
References: <54na30tnmdnegbokeogts7ptktb9lvgqmh@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <vrr02299972k3sdb3pmm0m034n2cu5dvus@4ax.com>

Greetings,

I hope that I am not asking something that has been discussed
extensively before, but I couldn't find the answer on those questions
anywhere.

1. Is there a way to delete all the members from the mailing list with
one simple command, while maintaining the list and other configurations?

2. Is there a way to export all the email address subscribed to one
specific mailing list to a txt, CSV or any other format?

Any help, pointers or clues would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 21 22:59:28 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:59:28 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] User Management.
In-Reply-To: <vrr02299972k3sdb3pmm0m034n2cu5dvus@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032113592807811f9ced49@msapiro>

multimedia-fan at myrealbox.com wrote:
>
>1. Is there a way to delete all the members from the mailing list with
>one simple command, while maintaining the list and other configurations?


If you have command line access,

bin/remove_members --all listname

If not, you need a list of the members to input to the admin mass
unsubscribe page.


>2. Is there a way to export all the email address subscribed to one
>specific mailing list to a txt, CSV or any other format?


http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.062.htp

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From rgrams at kictribe.org  Tue Mar 21 23:10:45 2006
From: rgrams at kictribe.org (Rick G)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:10:45 -0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
	appear to be the issue
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060321131254035913b5ce7d@msapiro>
Message-ID: <089901c64d34$546485f0$4b01630a@kic.kictribe.org>

Well, I can't answer that - it runs on a VPS from Verio.  The only access I
have is to mailman which was installed from their service as a script
command in a telnet session almost 3 years ago.

Of course, Verio is sticking with their standard tech support concept -
"They do not provide technical support for add-on features such as mailman."

Thus, here I am in the newsgroup.

Rick Grams


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 12:13 PM
To: Rick G; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: RE: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
appear to be the issue

>Mailman is running on a FreeBSD server.

I meant is this installed from source, a package, what package, any
local mods, why is it (or was it on Mar 20 11:20:43 2006) apparently
running a Mailman 2.0.x mailowner script that doesn't exist in 2.1.x
when it identifies itself as 2.1.4?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan





From multimedia-fan at myrealbox.com  Tue Mar 21 23:35:12 2006
From: multimedia-fan at myrealbox.com (multimedia-fan at myrealbox.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 14:35:12 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] User Management.
In-Reply-To: <vrr02299972k3sdb3pmm0m034n2cu5dvus@4ax.com>
References: <54na30tnmdnegbokeogts7ptktb9lvgqmh@4ax.com>
	<vrr02299972k3sdb3pmm0m034n2cu5dvus@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <vrv022dkt0s5epsqc8uvpcbmm0tc15gmjr@4ax.com>

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:26:43 -0800, multimedia-fan at myrealbox.com wrote:

>Greetings,
>
>I hope that I am not asking something that has been discussed
>extensively before, but I couldn't find the answer on those questions
>anywhere.
>
>1. Is there a way to delete all the members from the mailing list with
>one simple command, while maintaining the list and other configurations?
>
>2. Is there a way to export all the email address subscribed to one
>specific mailing list to a txt, CSV or any other format?
>
>Any help, pointers or clues would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Thank you.

Please ignore.

I have found the answer.
Thank you.



From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Tue Mar 21 23:44:53 2006
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:44:53 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail delivery bounces - why
Message-ID: <442081E5.6040306@washburn.edu>

I just replaced an old mailman server last night and was sent an email 
saying that mail is bouncing.  What could be causing this?

Subject:
Uncaught bounce notification
From:
mailman-bounces at bc01s12.washburn.edu
Date:
Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:21:32 -0600

To:
bna-uslawweeknews-owner at bc01s12.washburn.edu


The attached message was received as a bounce, but either the bounce
format was not recognized, or no member addresses could be extracted
from it.  This mailing list has been configured to send all
unrecognized bounce messages to the list administrator(s).

For more information see:
http://lists.washburn.edu/mailman/admin/bna-uslawweeknews/bounce


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Mail Delivery Problems
From:
<mailer-daemon at washburnlaw.edu>
Date:
Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:21:29 -0600

To:
<bna-uslawweeknews-bounces at bc01s12.washburn.edu>


The following message from bna-uslawweeknews-bounces at bc01s12.washburn.edu, addressed to:

admin at lists.washlaw.edu

is still undelivered after 10 attempts, and will be deleted from message queue.

3/21/2006 10:03:11 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
3/21/2006 10:05:13 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
3/21/2006 10:07:15 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
3/21/2006 10:09:17 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
3/21/2006 10:11:19 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
3/21/2006 10:13:21 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
3/21/2006 10:15:23 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
3/21/2006 10:17:25 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
3/21/2006 10:19:27 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
3/21/2006 10:21:29 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused

-- 
Jewel 





From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Wed Mar 22 00:08:26 2006
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:08:26 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail delivery bounces - why
In-Reply-To: <442081E5.6040306@washburn.edu>
References: <442081E5.6040306@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <4420876A.7070008@washburn.edu>

The old server had the email:  listmaster at washburnlaw.edu as the list 
administator.  But now email is trying to deliver to 
admin at washlaw.edu.   How can this be corrected?

Jewel wrote:

>I just replaced an old mailman server last night and was sent an email 
>saying that mail is bouncing.  What could be causing this?
>
>Subject:
>Uncaught bounce notification
>From:
>mailman-bounces at bc01s12.washburn.edu
>Date:
>Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:21:32 -0600
>
>To:
>bna-uslawweeknews-owner at bc01s12.washburn.edu
>
>
>The attached message was received as a bounce, but either the bounce
>format was not recognized, or no member addresses could be extracted
>from it.  This mailing list has been configured to send all
>unrecognized bounce messages to the list administrator(s).
>
>For more information see:
>http://lists.washburn.edu/mailman/admin/bna-uslawweeknews/bounce
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Subject:
>Mail Delivery Problems
>From:
><mailer-daemon at washburnlaw.edu>
>Date:
>Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:21:29 -0600
>
>To:
><bna-uslawweeknews-bounces at bc01s12.washburn.edu>
>
>
>The following message from bna-uslawweeknews-bounces at bc01s12.washburn.edu, addressed to:
>
>admin at lists.washlaw.edu
>
>is still undelivered after 10 attempts, and will be deleted from message queue.
>
>3/21/2006 10:03:11 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
>3/21/2006 10:05:13 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
>3/21/2006 10:07:15 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
>3/21/2006 10:09:17 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
>3/21/2006 10:11:19 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
>3/21/2006 10:13:21 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
>3/21/2006 10:15:23 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
>3/21/2006 10:17:25 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
>3/21/2006 10:19:27 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
>3/21/2006 10:21:29 AM - Winsock error when communicating with exchanger lists.washlaw.edu: 198.252.9.198: [10061] Connection refused
>
>  
>

-- 
Jewel Makda
Student Computer Services Coordinator
Washburn University 
School of Law Library
1700 SW College
Topeka, KS 66621
785.670.1776 
Fax 785.670.3194





From msapiro at value.net  Wed Mar 22 00:20:20 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:20:20 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
	appear to be the issue
In-Reply-To: <089901c64d34$546485f0$4b01630a@kic.kictribe.org>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032115202002811f9ceb4d@msapiro>

Rick G wrote:

>Well, I can't answer that - it runs on a VPS from Verio.  The only access I
>have is to mailman which was installed from their service as a script
>command in a telnet session almost 3 years ago.


In an earlier post, you said that you read the FAQ I pointed you to,
and your MemoryError issue was not the result of any memory limits
placed on CGI processes by the web server (actually, you said "We did
look for that - it does not exist in this situation." which I
understood to mean that).

Can you be sure of that in a Verio VPS environment?


>Of course, Verio is sticking with their standard tech support concept -
>"They do not provide technical support for add-on features such as mailman."
>
>Thus, here I am in the newsgroup.


And I'm trying to help you, but you don't know what software you're
running. It identifies itself in error tracebacks as 2.1.4, but you
say it was installed almost 3 years ago, and 2.1.4 was first released
less than two years and 3 months ago. It also seems to have at least
one incompatible 'mailowner' script from 2.0.x.

Also, I've asked a couple of very specific questions about the
request.db and pending.pck files which you seem to have totally
ignored.

If you can't tell us what you're running, and you ignore specific
questions, it's really hard for us to help you.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Wed Mar 22 00:24:30 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:24:30 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail delivery bounces - why
In-Reply-To: <4420876A.7070008@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032115243001561f9ceada@msapiro>

Jewel wrote:

>The old server had the email:  listmaster at washburnlaw.edu as the list 
>administator.  But now email is trying to deliver to 
>admin at washlaw.edu.   How can this be corrected?

Change it on the lists admin web interface General Options page.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From rgrams at kictribe.org  Wed Mar 22 00:47:36 2006
From: rgrams at kictribe.org (Rick G)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 14:47:36 -0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
	appear to be the issue
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006032115202002811f9ceb4d@msapiro>
Message-ID: <092201c64d41$d5956ab0$4b01630a@kic.kictribe.org>

Okay - I know you're trying to help, I didn't mean to imply otherwise.  :)
Please trust that your assistance is greatly appreciated.

Regrettably I missed the part about request.db (that doesn't seem to exist)
and pending.pck (which is 2222 bytes).

I do have access to many of the config files for mailman, sendmail and even
have a copy of the httpd.conf file (which I do not have "live" access to).

Finally, the current version may have been installed 2 years ago vice 3 (as
time goes too fast anymore).

I am running other lists on this same server - those lists are working fine.

Rick Grams


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 2:20 PM
To: Rick G; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: RE: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
appear to be the issue

Rick G wrote:

>Well, I can't answer that - it runs on a VPS from Verio.  The only access I
>have is to mailman which was installed from their service as a script
>command in a telnet session almost 3 years ago.


In an earlier post, you said that you read the FAQ I pointed you to,
and your MemoryError issue was not the result of any memory limits
placed on CGI processes by the web server (actually, you said "We did
look for that - it does not exist in this situation." which I
understood to mean that).

Can you be sure of that in a Verio VPS environment?


>Of course, Verio is sticking with their standard tech support concept -
>"They do not provide technical support for add-on features such as
mailman."
>
>Thus, here I am in the newsgroup.


And I'm trying to help you, but you don't know what software you're
running. It identifies itself in error tracebacks as 2.1.4, but you
say it was installed almost 3 years ago, and 2.1.4 was first released
less than two years and 3 months ago. It also seems to have at least
one incompatible 'mailowner' script from 2.0.x.

Also, I've asked a couple of very specific questions about the
request.db and pending.pck files which you seem to have totally
ignored.

If you can't tell us what you're running, and you ignore specific
questions, it's really hard for us to help you.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan





From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Wed Mar 22 00:50:54 2006
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:50:54 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail delivery bounces - why
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006032115243001561f9ceada@msapiro>
References: <PC17402006032115243001561f9ceada@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4420915E.7070305@washburn.edu>

I went into a few lists and see that the email is 
listmaster at washlaw.edu.  I don't know where this admin at lists.washlaw.edu 
is coming from.  I am assuming this is some default setting within 
Mailman or somewhere esle which I need to locate and change.  I never 
created the account manually.  I upgraded Mailman like usual.  The name 
of my host is lists.washlaw.edu.

Thanks!

Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Jewel wrote:
>
>  
>
>>The old server had the email:  listmaster at washburnlaw.edu as the list 
>>administator.  But now email is trying to deliver to 
>>admin at washlaw.edu.   How can this be corrected?
>>    
>>
>
>Change it on the lists admin web interface General Options page.
>
>  
>

-- 
Jewel Makda
Student Computer Services Coordinator
Washburn University 
School of Law Library
1700 SW College
Topeka, KS 66621
785.670.1776 
Fax 785.670.3194





From msapiro at value.net  Wed Mar 22 01:20:20 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:20:20 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
	appear to be the issue
In-Reply-To: <092201c64d41$d5956ab0$4b01630a@kic.kictribe.org>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032116202006098b344955@msapiro>

Rick G wrote:

>Okay - I know you're trying to help, I didn't mean to imply otherwise.  :)
>Please trust that your assistance is greatly appreciated.


And I didn't mean that I thought you didn't know I was trying to help.
I was only trying to explain why I was finding it difficult.


>Regrettably I missed the part about request.db (that doesn't seem to exist)
>and pending.pck (which is 2222 bytes).
>
>I do have access to many of the config files for mailman, sendmail and even
>have a copy of the httpd.conf file (which I do not have "live" access to).
>
>Finally, the current version may have been installed 2 years ago vice 3 (as
>time goes too fast anymore).
>
>I am running other lists on this same server - those lists are working fine.


Yes, I get that. I have two areas of concern for your installation. One
is that it appears to be 2.1.4, but somehow there's something that's
trying to run an incompatable 2.0.x script, although this doesn't
cause operational problems that you observe.

The other is the MemoryError issue. This is very difficult to diagnose.
Basically it is saying that we're doing something (in this case,
building the html for the admindb page) and the Python interpreter is
calling the C library malloc() function to allocate more memory and is
denied. The same code works for other lists, so what ever the issue
is, it's specific to this list. Note that the process that is
requesting more memory in this case is started as a CGI by the web
server when you go to the http://kictribe.org/mailman/admindb/clinic
URL, it runs, encounters the error and generates the "We hit a Bug"
page and terminates. Thus, only OS logs, if that, can tell us how big
it was, how much more memory it asked for and why it was denied.

What we do know is that we build this page from entries in (2.1.4)
lists/clinic/request.db. You say it doesn't seem to exist. Every list
should have one, even if it's empty. Do you see other files in this
directory like lists/clinic/config.pck and
lists/clinic/config.pck.last? If there really is no request.db, you
could try to copy one from another list that has no requests on its
admindb page and see if that helps.

Going back to the first issue, what's in the /etc/aliases file for
sendmail for these lists. Is there a set of 10 aliases per list as
shown in the 2.1.x part of item 2) in
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.014.htp>
or do some lists look like the four 2.0.x aliases, or is it some union
of these?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Wed Mar 22 01:30:21 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:30:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mail delivery bounces - why
In-Reply-To: <4420915E.7070305@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603211630210937f0a04e3e@msapiro>

Jewel wrote:
>
>I went into a few lists and see that the email is 
>listmaster at washlaw.edu.  I don't know where this admin at lists.washlaw.edu 
>is coming from.  I am assuming this is some default setting within 
>Mailman or somewhere esle which I need to locate and change.

There are no default addresses that mailman sends to. If mailman is
trying to send something to admin at lists.washlaw.edu, it is either a
response to something from that address or that address is an owner,
moderator or member of some list. Have you checked the site (mailman)
list?

>I upgraded Mailman like usual.

>From what version to what version?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From lists.james.edwards at gmail.com  Wed Mar 22 02:12:10 2006
From: lists.james.edwards at gmail.com (james edwards)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:12:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problems with .pck files
Message-ID: <b7f636a60603211712rc8f1d7ck33234c3f580a5d90@mail.gmail.com>

After my server panicked and rebooted itself, when  this cron runs:
 /usr/lib/mailman/cron/gate_new  I get this error message:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 284, in ?
    main()
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 264, in main
    process_lists(lock)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 199, in process_lists
    mlist = MailList.MailList(listname, lock=0)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 128, in __init__
    self.Load()
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 608, in Load
    raise Errors.MMCorruptListDatabaseError, e
Mailman.Errors.MMCorruptListDatabaseError: [Errno 2] No such file or
directory: '/var/lib/mailman/lists/jid/config.db.last'

The config files exist for this list:

[root at jidmail init.d]# cd /var/lib/mailman/lists/jid/
[root at jidmail jid]# ls
config.pck  config.pck.last  pending.pck  request.pck

>From what I read on the internet about this issue, this lists config files
are now hosed and I should replace them from the last known good backup.

Is this correct ?



james


From rgrams at kictribe.org  Wed Mar 22 02:58:56 2006
From: rgrams at kictribe.org (Rick G)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:58:56 -0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
	appear to be the issue
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006032116202006098b344955@msapiro>
Message-ID: <09e701c64d54$31640d30$4b01630a@kic.kictribe.org>

Guess what?  Just found the request.db file - 323612 bytes.

And the etc/alias reads as follows for Clinic
clinic-admin:            "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/wrapper mailowner clinic"
clinic-request:          "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/wrapper mailcmd clinic"
clinic-owner:            "clinic-admin"
clinic:                  "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/wrapper post clinic"

Yet on other lists there are the 10 aliases referred to in the link you
provided.


Rick Grams


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:20 PM
To: Rick G; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: RE: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
appear to be the issue

Rick G wrote:

>Okay - I know you're trying to help, I didn't mean to imply otherwise.  :)
>Please trust that your assistance is greatly appreciated.


And I didn't mean that I thought you didn't know I was trying to help.
I was only trying to explain why I was finding it difficult.


>Regrettably I missed the part about request.db (that doesn't seem to exist)
>and pending.pck (which is 2222 bytes).
>
>I do have access to many of the config files for mailman, sendmail and even
>have a copy of the httpd.conf file (which I do not have "live" access to).
>
>Finally, the current version may have been installed 2 years ago vice 3 (as
>time goes too fast anymore).
>
>I am running other lists on this same server - those lists are working
fine.


Yes, I get that. I have two areas of concern for your installation. One
is that it appears to be 2.1.4, but somehow there's something that's
trying to run an incompatable 2.0.x script, although this doesn't
cause operational problems that you observe.

The other is the MemoryError issue. This is very difficult to diagnose.
Basically it is saying that we're doing something (in this case,
building the html for the admindb page) and the Python interpreter is
calling the C library malloc() function to allocate more memory and is
denied. The same code works for other lists, so what ever the issue
is, it's specific to this list. Note that the process that is
requesting more memory in this case is started as a CGI by the web
server when you go to the http://kictribe.org/mailman/admindb/clinic
URL, it runs, encounters the error and generates the "We hit a Bug"
page and terminates. Thus, only OS logs, if that, can tell us how big
it was, how much more memory it asked for and why it was denied.

What we do know is that we build this page from entries in (2.1.4)
lists/clinic/request.db. You say it doesn't seem to exist. Every list
should have one, even if it's empty. Do you see other files in this
directory like lists/clinic/config.pck and
lists/clinic/config.pck.last? If there really is no request.db, you
could try to copy one from another list that has no requests on its
admindb page and see if that helps.

Going back to the first issue, what's in the /etc/aliases file for
sendmail for these lists. Is there a set of 10 aliases per list as
shown in the 2.1.x part of item 2) in
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.014.htp>
or do some lists look like the four 2.0.x aliases, or is it some union
of these?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan





From msapiro at value.net  Wed Mar 22 02:59:42 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:59:42 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problems with .pck files
In-Reply-To: <b7f636a60603211712rc8f1d7ck33234c3f580a5d90@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603211759360078f0a04af2@msapiro>

james edwards wrote:

>After my server panicked and rebooted itself, when  this cron runs:
> /usr/lib/mailman/cron/gate_new  I get this error message:
>
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "/usr/lib/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 284, in ?
>    main()
>  File "/usr/lib/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 264, in main
>    process_lists(lock)
>  File "/usr/lib/mailman/cron/gate_news", line 199, in process_lists
>    mlist = MailList.MailList(listname, lock=0)
>  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 128, in __init__
>    self.Load()
>  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 608, in Load
>    raise Errors.MMCorruptListDatabaseError, e
>Mailman.Errors.MMCorruptListDatabaseError: [Errno 2] No such file or
>directory: '/var/lib/mailman/lists/jid/config.db.last'
>
>The config files exist for this list:
>
>[root at jidmail init.d]# cd /var/lib/mailman/lists/jid/
>[root at jidmail jid]# ls
>config.pck  config.pck.last  pending.pck  request.pck

First, the reference to No such file or directory:
'/var/lib/mailman/lists/jid/config.db.last' is misleading. When an
attempt is made to instantiate a list via MailList.MailList(),
MailList attempts to load the list data from a config file. It tries
the 2.1.x file config.pck, the 2.1.x backup config.pick.last, the
2.0.x file config.db and the 2.0.x backup config.db.last in that
order, and if it is unable to load the list from any of them, it
reports only the last error.

The real error is as you say, both the config.pck and the
config.pck.last are corrupt.


>>From what I read on the internet about this issue, this lists config files
>are now hosed and I should replace them from the last known good backup.
>
>Is this correct ?


Is it only gate_news that gets this error? Are there errors like this
in the error log from other processes. What happens if you go to the
web listinfo overview for example. Does it get the same error?

If everything that accesses the list gets this, then I hope you have a
recent backup. If you don't, try 'bin/dumpdb' on both the config.pck
and config.pck.last to see if you can at least get up to date info in
text form.

If it's only gate_news that has the problem (unlikely, but we can
hope), then I'm not sure what the issue is.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Wed Mar 22 03:23:18 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:23:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
	appear to be the issue
In-Reply-To: <09e701c64d54$31640d30$4b01630a@kic.kictribe.org>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603211823180281829a248b@msapiro>

Rick G wrote:

>Guess what?  Just found the request.db file - 323612 bytes.


This represents a huge number of held requests for the admindb page
which explains the MemoryError.

You initially said you got rid of the held messages. Do you mean you
deleted the data/heldmsg-clinic-nnnn.pck files? If so, you might as
well try moving the request.db file aside and going to the admindb
page which should just create a new, empty request.db


>And the etc/alias reads as follows for Clinic
>clinic-admin:            "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/wrapper mailowner clinic"
>clinic-request:          "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/wrapper mailcmd clinic"
>clinic-owner:            "clinic-admin"
>clinic:                  "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/wrapper post clinic"
>
>Yet on other lists there are the 10 aliases referred to in the link you
>provided.


If looks like the clinic list may have been created under Mailman 2.0.x
and then Mailman upgraded and the old aliases never updated and the
old wrappers and scripts never deleted. This would explain why posting
to clinic would work but mail to the other clinic-* addresses would
bounce or cause an error or both.

I suggest replacing thes old clinic aliases with new ones like the
other lists have and running sendmail's newaliases to update the
aliases.db file.

Then, you should be able to delete /usr/local/mailman/mail/wrapper
because it is totally replaced by /usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman and
you should be able to delete any of the obsolete files
'answer_majordomo_mail', 'auto', 'mailcmd' and 'mailowner' that remain
in /usr/local/mailman/scripts/.

Don't delete /usr/local/mailman/scripts/post. That's a new one too.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From lists.james.edwards at gmail.com  Wed Mar 22 05:06:26 2006
From: lists.james.edwards at gmail.com (james edwards)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 21:06:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problems with .pck files
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603211759360078f0a04af2@msapiro>
References: <b7f636a60603211712rc8f1d7ck33234c3f580a5d90@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1740200603211759360078f0a04af2@msapiro>
Message-ID: <b7f636a60603212006x6a6fe022rd7d02cd0b331539b@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

Thanks for your help. Answers inline.


> Is it only gate_news that gets this error? Are there errors like this
> in the error log from other processes. What happens if you go to the
> web listinfo overview for example. Does it get the same error?


Yep & only for one list.


If everything that accesses the list gets this, then I hope you have a
> recent backup. If you don't, try 'bin/dumpdb' on both the config.pck
> and config.pck.last to see if you can at least get up to date info in
> text form.



A level 0  backup raan last night, so I can get the files from there.

Is there anything of use here:

[root at jidmail jid]# /usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb -p config.pck.last
[----- start pickle file -----]
[----- end pickle file -----]
[root at jidmail jid]# /usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb -p config.pck
[----- start pickle file -----]
[----- end pickle file -----]
[root at jidmail jid]# ls
config.pck  config.pck.last  pending.pck  request.pck
[root at jidmail jid]# /usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb -p pending.pck
[----- start pickle file -----]
<----- start object 1 ----->
{   'c3e20eb8105c74b4b1356d965dd88523103cf608': ('H', 32),
    'e01d88cc37e6f6bf1d546b28b38c413125beb229': ('H', 33),
    'evictions': {   'c3e20eb8105c74b4b1356d965dd88523103cf608':
1143215294.351737,
                     'e01d88cc37e6f6bf1d546b28b38c413125beb229':
1143242143.3469989},
    'version': 2}
[----- end pickle file -----]
[root at jidmail jid]# /usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb -p request.pck
[----- start pickle file -----]
<----- start object 1 ----->
{   33: (   1,
            (   1142982943.3346181,
                'xxxxj at xxxxxs.com',
                'xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx',
                'Post by non-member to a members-only list',
                'heldmsg-jid-33.pck',
                {   '_parsemsg': True,
                    'lang': 'en',
                    'listname': 'jid',
                    'pipeline': [   'Hold',
                                    'MimeDel',
                                    'Emergency',
                                    'Tagger',
                                    'CalcRecips',
                                    'AvoidDuplicates',
                                    'Cleanse',
                                    'CookHeaders',
                                    'ToDigest',
                                    'ToArchive',
                                    'ToUsenet',
                                    'AfterDelivery',
                                    'Acknowledge',
                                    'ToOutgoing'],
                    'received_time': 1142982942.707638,
                    'rejection_notice': 'Non-members are not allowed to post
messages to this list.',
                    'tolist': 1,
                    'version': 3})),
    'version': (0, 1)}
[----- end pickle file -----]
[root at jidmail jid]#

James


From msapiro at value.net  Wed Mar 22 05:57:42 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 20:57:42 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problems with .pck files
In-Reply-To: <b7f636a60603212006x6a6fe022rd7d02cd0b331539b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC174020060321205742076519719427@msapiro>

james edwards wrote:
>
>A level 0  backup raan last night, so I can get the files from there.


Good. :-)


>Is there anything of use here:
>
>[root at jidmail jid]# /usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb -p config.pck.last
>[----- start pickle file -----]
>[----- end pickle file -----]
>[root at jidmail jid]# /usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb -p config.pck
>[----- start pickle file -----]
>[----- end pickle file -----]


These say that there is no list object in the files. That is bad. It
basically says the list shouldn't work at all.


>[root at jidmail jid]# ls
>config.pck  config.pck.last  pending.pck  request.pck
>[root at jidmail jid]# /usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb -p pending.pck
>[----- start pickle file -----]
><----- start object 1 ----->
<snip>
>    'version': 2}
>[----- end pickle file -----]
>[root at jidmail jid]# /usr/lib/mailman/bin/dumpdb -p request.pck
>[----- start pickle file -----]
><----- start object 1 ----->
<snip>
>    'version': (0, 1)}
>[----- end pickle file -----]

These two look normal, but they aren't part of the problem. They relate
just to held messages in this case. There is a minor discrepancy in
that pending.pck shows two held messages (32 and 33) and request.pck
shows only 33, but it also looks like part of the listing might be
lost.

What happens if you go to the admin page for the list? Does that seem
OK or what? If dumpdb is telling the truth, the list's admin pages
should at most show default settings and no members. What are the
sizes of config.pck and config.pck.last?

If you go to the list's admin pages and everything looks totally OK
including the membership, make some innocuous change in settings and
then look at "bin/dumpdb" of the config.pck again. It should display
all the list attributes, membership, member options, etc.

Unless everything looks good including gate_news being OK, I'd restore
the config.pck only from the backup.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From pal at hkskole.no  Wed Mar 22 17:52:50 2006
From: pal at hkskole.no (pal at hkskole.no)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 17:52:50 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] wrong encoding in archive
Message-ID: <15436.80.212.53.179.1143046370.squirrel@hkskole.no>

I'm using ISO 8859-1 encoding, and the Norwegian letters ??? are shown
correct, except in the Archive. ??? are shown as ? and some chinese(?)
characters in the archive. Ay ideas?
--
P?l Monstad



From rgrams at kictribe.org  Wed Mar 22 18:16:46 2006
From: rgrams at kictribe.org (Rick G)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 08:16:46 -0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
	appear to be the issue
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603211823180281829a248b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <0fab01c64dd4$6bcd25d0$4b01630a@kic.kictribe.org>

Renamed old request.db file and used the admindb page which to create a new,
empty request.db - it's all working again.

Will clean up the rest today.

Thank you for the assistance!

Rick Grams


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:23 PM
To: Rick G; 'Mark Sapiro'; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: RE: [Mailman-Users] Hit a bug - only on this list - Memory does not
appear to be the issue

Rick G wrote:

>Guess what?  Just found the request.db file - 323612 bytes.


This represents a huge number of held requests for the admindb page
which explains the MemoryError.

You initially said you got rid of the held messages. Do you mean you
deleted the data/heldmsg-clinic-nnnn.pck files? If so, you might as
well try moving the request.db file aside and going to the admindb
page which should just create a new, empty request.db


>And the etc/alias reads as follows for Clinic
>clinic-admin:            "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/wrapper mailowner
clinic"
>clinic-request:          "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/wrapper mailcmd clinic"
>clinic-owner:            "clinic-admin"
>clinic:                  "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/wrapper post clinic"
>
>Yet on other lists there are the 10 aliases referred to in the link you
>provided.


If looks like the clinic list may have been created under Mailman 2.0.x
and then Mailman upgraded and the old aliases never updated and the
old wrappers and scripts never deleted. This would explain why posting
to clinic would work but mail to the other clinic-* addresses would
bounce or cause an error or both.

I suggest replacing thes old clinic aliases with new ones like the
other lists have and running sendmail's newaliases to update the
aliases.db file.

Then, you should be able to delete /usr/local/mailman/mail/wrapper
because it is totally replaced by /usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman and
you should be able to delete any of the obsolete files
'answer_majordomo_mail', 'auto', 'mailcmd' and 'mailowner' that remain
in /usr/local/mailman/scripts/.

Don't delete /usr/local/mailman/scripts/post. That's a new one too.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From lists.james.edwards at gmail.com  Wed Mar 22 18:17:27 2006
From: lists.james.edwards at gmail.com (james edwards)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 10:17:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problems with .pck files
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060321205742076519719427@msapiro>
References: <b7f636a60603212006x6a6fe022rd7d02cd0b331539b@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC174020060321205742076519719427@msapiro>
Message-ID: <b7f636a60603220917g238fd219y9009faf7b5a7047d@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> What happens if you go to the admin page for the list? Does that seem
> OK or what? If dumpdb is telling the truth, the list's admin pages
> should at most show default settings and no members. What are the
> sizes of config.pck and config.pck.last?



Yep.



If you go to the list's admin pages and everything looks totally OK
> including the membership, make some innocuous change in settings and
> then look at "bin/dumpdb" of the config.pck again. It should display
> all the list attributes, membership, member options, etc.
>
> Unless everything looks good including gate_news being OK, I'd restore
> the config.pck only from the backup.



Restore is going well, too bad that partition is almost a terabyte as it
took forever to blow out.

Mark, thanks again for your help in this.

  --

James H. Edwards
Network Systems Administrator
Judicial Information Division
jedwards at nmcourts.com


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Mar 22 19:45:26 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 12:45:26 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] wrong encoding in archive
In-Reply-To: <15436.80.212.53.179.1143046370.squirrel@hkskole.no>
References: <15436.80.212.53.179.1143046370.squirrel@hkskole.no>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603221045m5d5686a5we4a8834322f1151b@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/22/06, pal at hkskole.no <pal at hkskole.no> wrote:
> I'm using ISO 8859-1 encoding, and the Norwegian letters ??? are shown
> correct, except in the Archive. ??? are shown as ? and some chinese(?)
> characters in the archive. Ay ideas?
My guess is that your web server isn't sending along the right
encoding. You might want to check what it's sending (if you can
convince something to give you the headers your server reports, the
encoding ought to be in there somewhere.

--
- Patrick Bogen


From Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz  Wed Mar 22 23:01:17 2006
From: Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz (Steven Jones)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:01:17 +1200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman using Sendmail
Message-ID: <75CF552F30ECFA439D9B3008906F2A375018B0@STAWINCOMAILCL1.staff.vuw.ac.nz>

Hi All,

Hopefully anybody running mailman over sendmail will have got the CERT
alert for a issue with Sendmail. RH have released patches and it looked
urgent...

Regards

Steven


From thml1 at gmx.de  Thu Mar 23 13:20:56 2006
From: thml1 at gmx.de (Thomas Mladek)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:20:56 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] user mailman
Message-ID: <6331.1143116456@www003.gmx.net>

Hi,
I want to be able to hold several lists with the same listname in differnt
domans. Therefor I have to install mailman serveral times on the same
machine. Could someone tell me if it might cause some problems if they are
all owned by one user mailman. (for example collisions with all those
wrapper programms) 
Thanks a lot 
Thomas


From tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp  Thu Mar 23 14:01:05 2006
From: tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp (Tokio Kikuchi)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 22:01:05 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Released: Mailman 2.1.8b1
Message-ID: <44229C11.10308@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>

Hi Mailman-Users, -Developers and -i18ners,

Mailman 2.1.8b1 was released for beta test.  Talks are going around on 
the start of 2.2 after the release of 2.1.8 the final of 2.1-maint 
branch.  I really want to call this final than beta but we should take 
careful steps.

Please download it from Sourceforge file area:
   http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=103

Cheers,

Tokio
---------------------------------------------------
Here is a history of user visible changes to Mailman.

2.1.8b1 (23-Mar-2006)

   Bug fixes and other patches

     - Bouncers support added: 'unknown user', Microsoft SMTPSVC, 
Prodigy.net
       and several others.

     - Updated email library to 2.5.7 which will encode payload into 
qp/base64
       upon setting.  This enabled backing out the scrubber related patches
       including 'X-Mailman-Scrubbed' header in 2.1.7.

     - Fix SpamDetect.py potential hold/reject loop problem.

     - A warning message from email package to the stderr can cause error
       in Logging because stderr may be detached from the process during
       the qrunner run.  We chose not to output errors to stderr but to
       the logs/error if the process is running under mailmanctl subprocess.

     - DKIM header cleansing was separated from Cleanse.py and added to
       -owner messages too.

     - Fixes: Lose Topics when go directly to topics URL (1194419).
       UnicodeError running bin/arch (1395683).  edithtml.py missing import
       (1400128).  Bad escape in cleanarch.  Wrong timezone in list archive
       index pages (1433673).  bin/arch fails with TypeError (1430236).
       Subscription fails with some Language combinations (1435722).
       Postfix delayed notification not recognized (863989).  2.1.7 (VERP)
       mistakes delay notice for bounce (1421285).  show_qfiles: 'str'
       object has no attribute 'as_string' (1444447).  Utils.get_domain()
       wrong if VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW off (1275856).

   Miscellaneous

     - Brad Knowles' mailman daily status report script updated to 0.0.16.

-- 
Tokio Kikuchi, tkikuchi@ is.kochi-u.ac.jp
http://weather.is.kochi-u.ac.jp/



From jimpop at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 23 17:44:46 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:44:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Released: Mailman 2.1.8b1
In-Reply-To: <44229C11.10308@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
References: <44229C11.10308@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <4422D07E.4050802@yahoo.com>

Is the attached Release notice related to the 2.1.8b1 release?  If so, 
why is it indicated as "stable"?

-Jim P.

Tokio Kikuchi wrote:
> Hi Mailman-Users, -Developers and -i18ners,
> 
> Mailman 2.1.8b1 was released for beta test.  Talks are going around on 
> the start of 2.2 after the release of 2.1.8 the final of 2.1-maint 
> branch.  I really want to call this final than beta but we should take 
> careful steps.
> 
> Please download it from Sourceforge file area:
>    http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=103


From jimpop at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 23 18:20:25 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:20:25 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Released: Mailman 2.1.8b1
In-Reply-To: <4422D07E.4050802@yahoo.com>
References: <44229C11.10308@is.kochi-u.ac.jp> <4422D07E.4050802@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4422D8D9.90606@yahoo.com>

Apologies for the missing attachment, here is an inline copy that I
received from sf.net:

---------------------------
Project: Mailman  (mailman)
Package: Mailman 2.1 (stable)
Date   : 2006-03-23 12:20

Project "Mailman" ('mailman') has released the new version of package
'Mailman 2.1 (stable)'. You can download it from SourceForge.net by
following this link:
<https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=103&release_id=400173>
or browse Release Notes and ChangeLog by visiting this link:
<https://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=400173>

You receive this email because you requested to be notified when new
versions of this package were released. If you don't wish to be notified
in the future, please login to SourceForge.net and click this link:
<https://sourceforge.net/project/filemodule_unmonitor.php?filemodule_id=69562>
If you lost your SourceForge.net login name or password, refer to this
document:
<https://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=760&group_id=1>

Note that you may receive this message indirectly via one of your
mailing list subscriptions. Please review message headers before
reporting unsolicited mailings.
------------------------------

-Jim P.

Jim Popovitch wrote:
> Is the attached Release notice related to the 2.1.8b1 release?  If 
> so, why is it indicated as "stable"?
> 
> -Jim P.
> 
> Tokio Kikuchi wrote:
>> Hi Mailman-Users, -Developers and -i18ners,
>> 
>> Mailman 2.1.8b1 was released for beta test.  Talks are going around
>>  on the start of 2.2 after the release of 2.1.8 the final of 
>> 2.1-maint branch.  I really want to call this final than beta but 
>> we should take careful steps.
>> 
>> Please download it from Sourceforge file area: 
>> http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=103
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------ Mailman-Users 
> mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: 
> http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jimpop%40yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> Security Policy: 
> http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp


From tim at simulat.com  Thu Mar 23 05:58:43 2006
From: tim at simulat.com (Tim H)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:58:43 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to clear archives?
Message-ID: <026d01c64e36$763abfc0$7901a8c0@sub1.simulat.com>

Just installed mailman.
how do i clear out archives and start over?

thx



From lindahl at pbm.com  Thu Mar 23 19:58:57 2006
From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:58:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo - resolved
Message-ID: <20060323185856.GC23210@bx9.net>

FYI, it turns out that the biggest reason Yahoo was hoding up my
emails was that my reverse DNS and the name of my mail server didn't
look enough alike. When I changed them to be the same, my backlog
quickly cleared.

I also have a backlog with verizon.net, see

http://blog.kloppmagic.ca/archives/2005/02/24/verizon-450-requested-mail-action-not-taken-try-later-error/

That post is a bit old, I'm not sure what Verizon is doing right now,
but the upshot is that spam emails are getting 450 responses instead
of 5XX responses.

Verizon also has a spam policy which affects mailing lists:

http://www2.verizon.net/policies/spamming.asp

To whit: 100 recipient max for single messages, 500/hour. I don't know
if that's per from line or per server, probably the latter. Exceeding
500/hour shuts off emails for 24 hours.

You can request to go on their whitelist at:

http://www2.verizon.net/micro/whitelist/request_form.asp?id=isp

Since these issues are common to different mailing list managers, is
there a website that contains this kind of info? If not, should we
make one and advertise it to other mailing list communities?

-- greg




From jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu  Thu Mar 23 21:57:42 2006
From: jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu (Jana Nguyen)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:57:42 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Not receive email when posting to list
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006031711410601872a1e67c1@msapiro>
References: <PC17402006031711410601872a1e67c1@msapiro>
Message-ID: <44230BC6.7030305@ncmir.ucsd.edu>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Jana Nguyen wrote:
>  
>
>>It seems that mailman can send out mail.  I get an email of confirmation 
>>when subscribing to the list, but the owner of the list doesn't get an 
>>email to approve the rquest nor do I received a copy of an email for a 
>>list that I am a member of.
>>    
>>
>
>
>See
><http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.014.htp>
>
>  
>
#3 from the link above regarding smrsh.  I can't find smrsh on my redhat 
linux machine. 
I tried to check to see if MTA uses smrsh, but it's not there:

[birn-holly bin]# grep "smrsh" sendmail.cf
grep: sendmail.cf: No such file or directory

Next I tried to locate the smrsh dir:

[root at birn-holly bin]# ls -l /etc/smrsh
total 0
[root at birn-holly bin]# ls -l /usr/adm/sm.bin/
ls: /usr/adm/sm.bin/: No such file or directory

How do I setup smrsh to allow Mailman's wrapper program to run?

Thank you.



From jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu  Thu Mar 23 22:07:54 2006
From: jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu (Jana Nguyen)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:07:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Not receive email when posting to list
In-Reply-To: <44230BC6.7030305@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
References: <PC17402006031711410601872a1e67c1@msapiro>
	<44230BC6.7030305@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <44230E2A.6040706@ncmir.ucsd.edu>

Jana Nguyen wrote:

>Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Jana Nguyen wrote:
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>It seems that mailman can send out mail.  I get an email of confirmation 
>>>when subscribing to the list, but the owner of the list doesn't get an 
>>>email to approve the rquest nor do I received a copy of an email for a 
>>>list that I am a member of.
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>See
>><http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.014.htp>
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>#3 from the link above regarding smrsh.  I can't find smrsh on my redhat 
>linux machine. 
>I tried to check to see if MTA uses smrsh, but it's not there:
>
>[birn-holly bin]# grep "smrsh" sendmail.cf
>grep: sendmail.cf: No such file or directory
>
>Next I tried to locate the smrsh dir:
>
>[root at birn-holly bin]# ls -l /etc/smrsh
>total 0
>[root at birn-holly bin]# ls -l /usr/adm/sm.bin/
>ls: /usr/adm/sm.bin/: No such file or directory
>
>How do I setup smrsh to allow Mailman's wrapper program to run?
>  
>
I can locate smrsh now, but it is not integrated with Mailman? :

[birn-holly ~]# locate smrsh
warning: locate: warning: database /var/lib/slocate/slocate.db' is more 
than 8 days old
/etc/smrsh
/usr/share/man/man8/smrsh.8.gz
/usr/sbin/smrsh

Tx.

>Thank you.
>
>------------------------------------------------------
>Mailman-Users mailing list
>Mailman-Users at python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
>Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jnguyen%40ncmir.ucsd.edu
>
>Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>
>  
>



From savoy at uleth.ca  Thu Mar 23 21:50:02 2006
From: savoy at uleth.ca (Jim Savoy)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:50:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] shunting problem (unpack list of wrong size)
Message-ID: <442309FA.4090308@uleth.ca>


Hello all,

    Of our 770+ lists, a couple have some shunting problems (the unshunt 
command fails
to release queued up messages in the shunt directory). We are still 
running v2.1.5 with
plans to upgrade in May, but I was hoping to get a fix for this before then.

   The error message we get is:

==========================================================

  Mar 23 12:37:33 2006 (19290) Uncaught runner exception: unpack list of 
wrong size
                       .
                       .
                       .
 File "/mail/mailman/pythonlib/email/Utils.py", line 337, in decode_params
     charset, language, value = decode_rfc2231(EMPTYSTRING.join(value))
   File "/mail/mailman/pythonlib/email/Utils.py", line 284, in 
decode_rfc2231
     charset, language, s = parts
 ValueError: unpack list of wrong size
========================================================

In pouring over the archives, Mark Shapiro wrote (in response to someone 
with
the same problem):

     Other lists aren't having a problem because it's probably caused by one
     particular list member with a pathological MUA.

And that this is related to the "scrubbing of attachments" for the 
digest or archives.

But no one on this list is using the digest feature and archiving is 
turned off. Plus
the user in question (the one sending the message) is using a generic 
webmail client,
the same one many of our users employ, with no special character set or 
language
options (that I can see anyway).

Any ideas? Would an upgrade to 2.1.7 resolve this problem (I only say 
that because
I perused the Mailman mailing list in reverse order from present date, 
and this issue
was never raised again by anyone after 2.1.6 came out).

Thanks!

   - jim -



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Thu Mar 23 22:48:48 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:48:48 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Not receive email when posting to list
In-Reply-To: <44230E2A.6040706@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
References: <PC17402006031711410601872a1e67c1@msapiro>
	<44230BC6.7030305@ncmir.ucsd.edu> <44230E2A.6040706@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603231348q765d3e0fn8d89364e1b5a8b6e@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/23/06, Jana Nguyen <jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu> wrote:
> I can locate smrsh now, but it is not integrated with Mailman? :
>
> [birn-holly ~]# locate smrsh
> warning: locate: warning: database /var/lib/slocate/slocate.db' is more
> than 8 days old
> /etc/smrsh

I believe what you need to do is place symlinks to the mailman wrapper
in /etc/smrsh/

--
- Patrick Bogen


From jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu  Thu Mar 23 22:59:45 2006
From: jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu (Jana Nguyen)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:59:45 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Not receive email when posting to list
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00603231348q765d3e0fn8d89364e1b5a8b6e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PC17402006031711410601872a1e67c1@msapiro>	
	<44230BC6.7030305@ncmir.ucsd.edu> <44230E2A.6040706@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
	<6fbe3da00603231348q765d3e0fn8d89364e1b5a8b6e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44231A51.4010607@ncmir.ucsd.edu>

Hmm, I'm using postfix not sendmail.  In the Build and install mailman 
documentation it does not say that mailman wrapper needs
to be integrated with postfix.  But in the FAQ it is not clear if I need 
to use mailman wrapper with smrsh, I thought it is only with sendmail?

Thanks.

Patrick Bogen wrote:

>On 3/23/06, Jana Nguyen <jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>  
>
>>I can locate smrsh now, but it is not integrated with Mailman? :
>>
>>[birn-holly ~]# locate smrsh
>>warning: locate: warning: database /var/lib/slocate/slocate.db' is more
>>than 8 days old
>>/etc/smrsh
>>    
>>
>
>I believe what you need to do is place symlinks to the mailman wrapper
>in /etc/smrsh/
>
>--
>- Patrick Bogen
>
>
>  
>



From johannalovett at gmail.com  Thu Mar 23 23:02:31 2006
From: johannalovett at gmail.com (johanna lovett)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:02:31 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] about autosubscribing
Message-ID: <582d67c60603231402p1c7fdcb8q74ba6113205f06ff@mail.gmail.com>

I hope I've found the right place to ask this question --- my website offers
Mailman lists and I'm trying to figure out how to allow members to
autosubscribe via my site (so that I don't have to manually add them). Would
code below do it?

Thanks very much for your help.

J.


<hr ALIGN="center" WIDTH="730"><br>
 <H2><B>Join the XYZ list</b></H2>
 <FORM Method=POST ACTION="<SERVER>/mailman /subscribe/<LISTNAME>"><br>
 Your E-mail address: <INPUT type="Text" name="email" size="30"
value=""><br>
 Your Name (optional): <INPUT type="Text" name="fullname" size="30"
value=""><br><br>
 <INPUT type="Submit" name="email-button" value="Subscribe">
 </FORM>
 <p><p>
 <hr ALIGN="center" WIDTH="730">


From lists05 at equinephotoart.com  Thu Mar 23 22:42:29 2006
From: lists05 at equinephotoart.com (JC Dill)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:42:29 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce issues with Yahoo - resolved
In-Reply-To: <20060323185856.GC23210@bx9.net>
References: <20060323185856.GC23210@bx9.net>
Message-ID: <44231645.6070109@equinephotoart.com>

Greg Lindahl wrote:

<snip Yahoo and Verizon mailing list delivery problems and info>

> Since these issues are common to different mailing list managers, is
> there a website that contains this kind of info? If not, should we
> make one and advertise it to other mailing list communities?

I don't know about a website, but there is a mailing list (with 
archives) where this information is on-topic and useful:

<http://www.greatcircle.com/list-managers/>

I suggest you post this information to that list, and ask if anyone 
there can suggest a website where the information should be added.

jc



From demonveen at gmail.com  Thu Mar 23 23:17:08 2006
From: demonveen at gmail.com (daniel trejo)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 16:17:08 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] would it be useful to modify this code.
Message-ID: <997503340603231417x2f434245r@mail.gmail.com>

Im trying to modify Decorate.py so I can put a <img src=> html tag

So far ive modified the handler Decorate.py so all messages are multipart (
I know Its not recommended but Im quite desperate)

I want to modify this part of Decorate.py so it doesnt convert the header to
plain text ; I ve tried deleting the 'plain'  in the function MIMEText but
nothing changes, somy question is if Im on the right track or  it doesnt
have anything to do with this part?

    # Now, play games with the outer message to make it contain three
    # subparts: the header (if any), the wrapped message, and the footer (if
    # any).
    payload = [inner]
    if header:
        mimehdr =MIMEText( header, lcset)
        mimehdr['Content-Disposition'] = 'inline'
        payload.insert(0, mimehdr)
    if footer:
        mimeftr = MIMEText(footer, 'plain', lcset)
        mimeftr['Content-Disposition'] = 'inline'
        payload.append(mimeftr)
    msg.set_payload(payload)
    del msg['content-type']
    del msg['content-transfer-encoding']
    del msg['content-disposition']
    msg['Content-Type'] = 'multipart/mixed'


From Tracy.Macshane at AirservicesAustralia.com  Fri Mar 24 01:06:16 2006
From: Tracy.Macshane at AirservicesAustralia.com (MacShane, Tracy)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:06:16 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hostname confusion
Message-ID: <A4C9B5E4D0CCCF4F8A92E8AF7F937009012434E2@cxcb07.asanet.prd.airservices.gov.au>

I have a new Postfix 2.2 server and am trying to integrate Mailman 2.1
with it. The Mailman package is that provided by RedHat, and I followed
their config instructions during installation. I'm also using the
postfix-to-mailman.py (2.1) script to make use of virtual domains. I'm
pretty much a n00b when it comes to *nix admin, although my Postfix
server appears to be working happily.

Now we come to the issue. My mail server's FQDN is server.domain.gov.au.
I want to deliver mail to mailman at lists.altdomain.com.
lists.altdomain.com does not exist as a DNS alias. I modified all the
main.cf, transport and master.cf files for Postfix as specified in the
script (eg. the transport file contains the line "lists.altdomain.com
mailman:", and so on). When I try to send mail to my test mailman
mailing list, the mail gets routed out to the MX server that is
currently primary for the altdomain.com domain (and rejected there,
since "mailman at lists.altdomain.com" doesn't exist on that server).

I think the issue is with the mm_cfg.py configuration. At present, I
have the standard settings:

DEFAULT_URL_HOST   = fqdn
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = fqdn

Do I need to change DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST to server.altdomain.com (not
server.domain.gov.au), and have a corresponding alias entry in DNS? We
absolutely cannot "move" the server to the other domain. Can I "cheat"
and put an entry in the local hosts file instead? This server is
currently in place for testing purposes only.

Thanks!


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Mar 24 01:45:37 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:45:37 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Not receive email when posting to list
In-Reply-To: <44231A51.4010607@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
References: <PC17402006031711410601872a1e67c1@msapiro>
	<44230BC6.7030305@ncmir.ucsd.edu> <44230E2A.6040706@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
	<6fbe3da00603231348q765d3e0fn8d89364e1b5a8b6e@mail.gmail.com>
	<44231A51.4010607@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603231645w11c4e0a8saf49f63893692f15@mail.gmail.com>

sorry
On 3/23/06, Jana Nguyen <jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu> wrote:
> Hmm, I'm using postfix not sendmail.  In the Build and install mailman
Sorry, I assumed that since you were asking about smrsh you knew you
needed it. I do not know whether or not Postfix uses smrsh; I would
assume it doesn't, and you may thus disregard what I said earlier.

--
- Patrick Bogen


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 24 02:28:56 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:28:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Not receive email when posting to list
In-Reply-To: <44231A51.4010607@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <PC174020060323172856000074f72ff8@msapiro>

Jana Nguyen wrote:

>Hmm, I'm using postfix not sendmail.  In the Build and install mailman 
>documentation it does not say that mailman wrapper needs
>to be integrated with postfix.  But in the FAQ it is not clear if I need 
>to use mailman wrapper with smrsh, I thought it is only with sendmail?

Your concern with smrsh is misguided. I have just tried to clarify the
FAQ a bit, but if you are not using smrsh (Sendmail Restricted SHell -
only applies to sendmail), that is a good thing, not a bad thing as
far as Sendmail/Mailman integration is concerned.

I am not clear from your earlier posts if any mail at all gets to
Mailman. You say people can subscribe, and you get notices. Can people
subscribe by email or only by the web.

When you try to post, do you get an undeliverable notice from Postfix?
What's in the Postfix log.

Is there anything piling up in qfiles/in? Are mailmanctl and all eight
qrunners running (step 1 in FAQ 3.14)? Clearly some runners are
running because you get a subscription confirmation.

You never said clearly that the address you were posting from was
actually subscribed to the list.

I also never asked if anyone could successfully post. Can anyone post?
I.e., is this a working list except for you?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 24 02:52:14 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:52:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] about autosubscribing
In-Reply-To: <582d67c60603231402p1c7fdcb8q74ba6113205f06ff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032317521406095cdf73ef@msapiro>

johanna lovett wrote:

>I hope I've found the right place to ask this question --- my website offers
>Mailman lists and I'm trying to figure out how to allow members to
>autosubscribe via my site (so that I don't have to manually add them). Would
>code below do it?

It looks OK. It's in the FAQ - article 4.33

>Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 24 03:35:05 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:35:05 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hostname confusion
In-Reply-To: <A4C9B5E4D0CCCF4F8A92E8AF7F937009012434E2@cxcb07.asanet.prd.airservices.gov.au>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032318350507968481cd01@msapiro>

MacShane, Tracy  wrote:

>I have a new Postfix 2.2 server and am trying to integrate Mailman 2.1
>with it. The Mailman package is that provided by RedHat, and I followed
>their config instructions during installation. I'm also using the
>postfix-to-mailman.py (2.1) script to make use of virtual domains.


I don't see where postfix-to-mailman.py is going to help you. I think
it's making things harder.


>I'm
>pretty much a n00b when it comes to *nix admin, although my Postfix
>server appears to be working happily.
>
>Now we come to the issue. My mail server's FQDN is server.domain.gov.au.
>I want to deliver mail to mailman at lists.altdomain.com.
>lists.altdomain.com does not exist as a DNS alias. I modified all the
>main.cf, transport and master.cf files for Postfix as specified in the
>script (eg. the transport file contains the line "lists.altdomain.com
>mailman:", and so on). When I try to send mail to my test mailman
>mailing list, the mail gets routed out to the MX server that is
>currently primary for the altdomain.com domain (and rejected there,
>since "mailman at lists.altdomain.com" doesn't exist on that server).


Yep. You either need to route mail to lists.altdomain.com that hits the
primary MX server to the lists.altdomain.com box, or you need a
separate MX record to do this. Also, if you are going to use
postfix-to-mailman.py, it has to be on the Mailman box, not the MX box.


>I think the issue is with the mm_cfg.py configuration. At present, I
>have the standard settings:
>
>DEFAULT_URL_HOST   = fqdn
>DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = fqdn


These domains should be the ones that are used to access the Mailman
web interface and to send mail to mailman from the outside, as they
are the ones that mailman will use for this purpose in generated URLs
and email addresses.

I.e., if an outside user posts to list at example.com, aet
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'example.com'
and if an outside user goes to a list's listinfo page at
http://www.example.com/mailman/listinfo/list, set
DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'www.example.com'

Of course, these relate to host names, DNS entries, etc., but if the
servers, MTAs, DNS, etc are all set up properly, DEFAULT_URL_HOST and
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST can be anything and the only things affected will
be advertised and linked URLs and email addresses and perhaps what
lists appear on listinfo and admin overview pages.

In other words, getting them wrong doesn't have any effect on whether
or not mail gets to Mailman.


>Do I need to change DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST to server.altdomain.com (not
>server.domain.gov.au), and have a corresponding alias entry in DNS?

Either that or you have to arrange in some other way for mail to the
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST domain to get to server.altdomain.com
>We
>absolutely cannot "move" the server to the other domain. Can I "cheat"
>and put an entry in the local hosts file instead? This server is
>currently in place for testing purposes only.
>
>Thanks!
>------------------------------------------------------
>Mailman-Users mailing list
>Mailman-Users at python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
>Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/msapiro%40value.net
>
>Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 24 04:09:26 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:09:26 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] user mailman
In-Reply-To: <6331.1143116456@www003.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603231909260515062e0a7d@msapiro>

Thomas Mladek wrote:

>I want to be able to hold several lists with the same listname in differnt
>domans. Therefor I have to install mailman serveral times on the same
>machine. Could someone tell me if it might cause some problems if they are
>all owned by one user mailman.


It should be fine.


>(for example collisions with all those
>wrapper programms) 


The mail/mailman and cgi-bin/* wrappers need to be individually
compiled (by configure/make install) and be in their own directories
unique to each Mailman installation, but the files can all be in the
same mailman group.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 24 04:44:56 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:44:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] shunting problem (unpack list of wrong size)
In-Reply-To: <442309FA.4090308@uleth.ca>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603231944560531c153dcab@msapiro>

Jim Savoy wrote:
>
>   The error message we get is:
>
>==========================================================
>
>  Mar 23 12:37:33 2006 (19290) Uncaught runner exception: unpack list of 
>wrong size
>                       .
>                       .
>                       .
> File "/mail/mailman/pythonlib/email/Utils.py", line 337, in decode_params
>     charset, language, value = decode_rfc2231(EMPTYSTRING.join(value))
>   File "/mail/mailman/pythonlib/email/Utils.py", line 284, in 
>decode_rfc2231
>     charset, language, s = parts
> ValueError: unpack list of wrong size
>========================================================

It appears that the message has a malformed rfc-2231
<http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2231.html> encoded header or some header
with exactly one single quote "'" character that's being misidentified
as an RFC-2231 encoded header.

Beyond that, it would help to see the rest of the traceback to see how
we got here.

Also, can you do either bin/dumpdb or bin/show_qfiles on the shunt
queue entry and perhaps see what the problem with the message is?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 24 05:42:59 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 20:42:59 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] how to clear archives?
In-Reply-To: <026d01c64e36$763abfc0$7901a8c0@sub1.simulat.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603232042590062f9019819@msapiro>

Tim H wrote:

>Just installed mailman.
>how do i clear out archives and start over?


 cat /dev/null > archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox
 bin/arch --wipe listname

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 24 06:13:12 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 21:13:12 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] would it be useful to modify this code.
In-Reply-To: <997503340603231417x2f434245r@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC174020060323211312014043110798@msapiro>

daniel trejo wrote:

>Im trying to modify Decorate.py so I can put a <img src=> html tag
>
>So far ive modified the handler Decorate.py so all messages are multipart (
>I know Its not recommended but Im quite desperate)


It's your loaded gun and your foot...


>I want to modify this part of Decorate.py so it doesnt convert the header to
>plain text ; I ve tried deleting the 'plain'  in the function MIMEText but
>nothing changes, somy question is if Im on the right track or  it doesnt
>have anything to do with this part?


I'm mildly surprised nothing changes, since deleting the 'plain'
argument results in a call with the sub-type argument equal to the
character set. You might actually want to look at the definition of
MIMEText() (e.g., at <http://docs.python.org/lib/node588.html>) before
you start trying to alter its arguments.


>    # Now, play games with the outer message to make it contain three
>    # subparts: the header (if any), the wrapped message, and the footer (if
>    # any).
>    payload = [inner]
>    if header:
>        mimehdr =MIMEText( header, lcset)


Assuming the rest of what you've done is OK, what you want here is

        mimehdr =MIMEText( header, 'html', lcset)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Fri Mar 24 16:41:48 2006
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:41:48 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Raw Archives
Message-ID: <4424133C.6080707@washburn.edu>

I have a user that wants to download the raw archives of a list but this 
archive it 65MB and her PC hangs every time she tries to download it.  
Mine does too.  I am trying to determine if there is a way I can run a a 
command on the Mailman server which could zip the file, mail it to 
myself and then send it to her.  Or if there is another way of 
downloading the file via the web I can tell her.  Any suggestions or 
ideas anyone?

-- 
Thanks!
Jewel 




From tom at detroitonline.com  Fri Mar 24 16:58:53 2006
From: tom at detroitonline.com (Tom Ray)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:58:53 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] A glitch in Mailman??
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060317133940070306904ce7@msapiro>
Message-ID: <001801c64f5b$db67f7c0$c802a8c0@echoes>

Mark-

OK, I really think I messed this up so any help you or anyone can give
would be great. I'm going to try to give as much detail as possible this
time around because I've done some digging and I think I see where the
problem is but I don't know how to get around it. Basically, I believe I
screwed up. And now I have customers getting a bit peeved because they
can't add or manage their Mailman lists via the website. They are being
told the site doesn't exist, even though the list is running flawlessly.
So not everything is broken, just the web interface. Like I said before
under the Mailman Icon, instead of have the proper release number they
all say 2.1.7 so you were right about all of them reading some place
global.

I have five different domains running Mailman installations. Also, three
of the five domains are each running with different releases of Mailman
2.1.x. The first site was installed using 2.1.5, the second with
2.1.6rc3, the third with 2.1.6, and the last two were with 2.1.7. Sites
one through three where configured with the following:

./configure --prefix=/home/virtual/sitename.com/mailman
--with-python=/usr/bin/python --with-username=mailman
--with-groupname=mailman --with-cgi-gid=nobody --with-gcc=no

Each site had the scripts/mailman copied to
/etc/rc.d/init.d/sitename-mailman then I ran chkconfig --add
sitename-mailman

Before site four was installed I had upgraded python to 2.2 and made
/usr/bin/python a softlink to /usr/bin/python2.2 and then configured the
site like so:

./configure --prefix=/home/virtual/sitename.com/mailman
--with-python=/usr/bin/python2.2 --with-username=mailman
--with-groupname=mailman --with-cgi-gid=nobody --with-gcc=no

Again, I copied scripts/mailman to /etc/rc.d/init.d/sitename-mailman and
ran chkconfig --add sitename-mailman. Up to this point everything was
working great. All the sites could manage their lists via their web
interface, the Version number was correct per site. The trouble started
when site number five was installed. Unfortunately, an associate here
removed the installed directory I had created for site five so I can not
check the config.status from my ./configure command but I follow a
pretty simple path when doing this installs so I can only assume I did
it just like site four above.

Site five is the only site with a working web interface, but I believe
it's the root cause of all the problems. After it was installed all the
web interfaces for the other four sites basically broke saying there
where no lists installed on them even if you called on them directly.
And like you had said, upgrading site one to 2.1.7 did not help. While
the lists are running the web interface is still not working, except I
found this little tidbit of information.

I recreated the sitewide mailing list by doing the  bin/config_list -i
data/sitelist.cfg mailman and then running bin/mmsitepass [password] and
bin/mmsitepass -c [password]. If I call on the mailman list directly in
the web interface I can manage it and it appears (it's just not public),
however, when I go to create a new list via the web interface it tells
me I am not authorized to create a list even though I'm using the
password I set via bin/mmsitepass -c. So I decided to give something a
shot and I used the list creator password from site five and got the
"unknown virtual hosts" error that time around. Some how, some way site
five became the granddaddy of the other four sites. When I try to create
a list on any of them it appears to accept the password but then dies
because their virtual host information is not in mm_cfg.py.

Now here's where it gets funky for me. I changed the Virtual Host
information in site five to match site one and tried to setup the list
again via the web interface and it worked! The list was created. Now it
gets even funkier, when I go to http://lists.siteone.com/mailman/admin
it shows the list I just created but not any of the current lists
running under that site. When I go to
http://lists.sitefive.com/mailman/admin it does not show that list, but
if I call on it directly via site five it prompts me for the password. 

Finally, when I run bin/list_lists under site one it lists all the
current mailing lists but not the new one I just created. When I run
bin/list_lists under site five it shows all of site five's lists AND the
new one I created.

I apologize for this being long and drawn out but I wanted to make sure
all the details where here. So I have two questions: 1) Is there a work
around to fix this? And 2) If not, can I back up the data, archives, and
lists files for each site and then remove all installations of Mailman,
do all fresh installs then copy the backed up data into the proper spots
on the fresh installs?

I just need to get the web interfaces working and do it without causing
a heaving downtime impact on the lists that are running now.

Thanks for any and all help!
Tom



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net] 
> Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 4:40 PM
> To: Tom Ray; mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] A glitch in Mailman??
> 
> 
> Tom Ray wrote:
> 
> >I'm running mailman on multiple sites (virtual mail server) and for 
> >each installation I configured it for the domain inquestion 
> only. The 
> >last two installs that I did were with mailman 2.1.7 while 
> the existing 
> >ones were with 2.1.6. It appears that the mailing lists for all the 
> >domains are working just fine but I'm running into a problem 
> with the 
> >web site side of it all.
> >
> >All the domains installed with 2.1.7 are _not_ having any 
> issues with 
> >the web interface. However, all the domains setup with 2.1.6 are not 
> >working. It claims there are no public lists to view and 
> when I enter 
> >the list to view (per the page's instructions) I'm being 
> told the list 
> >doesn't exist. It also says that the installed version is 2.1.7
> >
> >Is there something I missed? I was under the impression that if I 
> >configured each domain seperately it would not be an issue. 
> Do I need 
> >to run some sort of upgrade script on the sites using 2.1.6?
> 
> This shouldn't be a 2.1.6 vs. 2.1.7 issue. It's hard to know 
> what's goin on from your description, but is seems your 
> separate installs are not as separate as you think.
> 
> Is each domain's set of cgi-bin wrappers in it's own cgi-bin 
> directory, and were each domain's wrappers compiled by a 
> makefile configured with its own unique set of 'prefix' arguments?
> 
> Were the 2.1.6 lists created in their current domains? If not 
> see 
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.029.htp>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 24 17:16:30 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 08:16:30 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Raw Archives
In-Reply-To: <4424133C.6080707@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603240816300062f4f83ebc@msapiro>

Jewel wrote:

>I have a user that wants to download the raw archives of a list but this 
>archive it 65MB and her PC hangs every time she tries to download it.  
>Mine does too.  I am trying to determine if there is a way I can run a a 
>command on the Mailman server which could zip the file, mail it to 
>myself and then send it to her.  Or if there is another way of 
>downloading the file via the web I can tell her.  Any suggestions or 
>ideas anyone?

Only if you have command line access to the server or another way to
run commands on the server (e.g., set up a cron job, ask someone to do
it for you). You can't do this via Mailman.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 24 17:44:51 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 08:44:51 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] A glitch in Mailman??
In-Reply-To: <001801c64f5b$db67f7c0$c802a8c0@echoes>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603240844510578de8bb275@msapiro>

Tom Ray wrote:
>
<snip>
>
>Now here's where it gets funky for me. I changed the Virtual Host
>information in site five to match site one and tried to setup the list
>again via the web interface and it worked! The list was created. Now it
>gets even funkier, when I go to http://lists.siteone.com/mailman/admin
>it shows the list I just created but not any of the current lists
>running under that site. When I go to
>http://lists.sitefive.com/mailman/admin it does not show that list, but
>if I call on it directly via site five it prompts me for the password. 

This is what I would expect. The virtual host info in mailman only
controls things like host name in links on the web pages, etc. and
what lists appear on the admin and listinfo overviews. Everything you
do on the web appears to operate on site five.


The most likely cause of the I think is in your web server config. I
think the

scriptalias /mailman/ site_five_prefix/mailman/cgi-bin/

is in the web server config in a global place, not in a place where it
applies only to the site five domain.

Expanding on the above situation a bit, you changed the (presumably)
DEFAULT_URL_HOST in site five's mm_cfg.py to 'lists.siteone.com' and
created a list in site five's $prefix which now has a web_page_url
attribute like 'http://lists.siteone.com/mailman/'. The other site
five lists all have web_page_url attributes like
'http://lists.sitefive.com/mailman/', thus when you go to the admin
overview at http://lists.siteone.com/mailman/admin, it shows only the
new list because you are going to site five really, and the new list
is the only one whose web_page_url matches the host in the url you
went to.

When you go to http://lists.sitefive.com/mailman/admin, you see those
lists, but not the new one.

Again, everything tells me it's the web server running the site five
cgi_bin/* wrappers regardless of which host you go to.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From tom at detroitonline.com  Fri Mar 24 17:59:27 2006
From: tom at detroitonline.com (Tom Ray)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:59:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] A glitch in Mailman??
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603240844510578de8bb275@msapiro>
Message-ID: <004c01c64f64$4f8073a0$c802a8c0@echoes>

Mark-

Thanks, I wasn't thinking about the HTTPD stuff. I must have not read
your previous email clearly enough. It fixed the problem.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net] 
> Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 11:45 AM
> To: Tom Ray
> Cc: mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: RE: [Mailman-Users] A glitch in Mailman??
> 
> 
> Tom Ray wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> >
> >Now here's where it gets funky for me. I changed the Virtual Host 
> >information in site five to match site one and tried to 
> setup the list 
> >again via the web interface and it worked! The list was 
> created. Now it 
> >gets even funkier, when I go to 
> http://lists.siteone.com/mailman/admin
> >it shows the list I 
> just created but not any of the current lists 
> >running under that site. When I go to 
> >http://lists.sitefive.com/mailman/admin it does not show 
> that list, but 
> >if I call on it directly via site five it prompts me for the 
> password.
> 
> This is what I would expect. The virtual host info in mailman 
> only controls things like host name in links on the web 
> pages, etc. and what lists appear on the admin and listinfo 
> overviews. Everything you do on the web appears to operate on 
> site five.
> 
> 
> The most likely cause of the I think is in your web server 
> config. I think the
> 
> scriptalias /mailman/ site_five_prefix/mailman/cgi-bin/
> 
> is in the web server config in a global place, not in a place 
> where it applies only to the site five domain.
> 
> Expanding on the above situation a bit, you changed the 
> (presumably) DEFAULT_URL_HOST in site five's mm_cfg.py to 
> 'lists.siteone.com' and created a list in site five's $prefix 
> which now has a web_page_url attribute like 
> 'http://lists.siteone.com/mailman/'. The other site five 
> lists all have web_page_url attributes like 
> 'http://lists.sitefive.com/mailman/', thus when you go to the 
> admin overview at http://lists.siteone.com/mailman/admin, it 
> shows only the new list because you are going to site five 
> really, and the new list is the only one whose web_page_url 
> matches the host in the url you went to.
> 
> When you go to http://lists.sitefive.com/mailman/admin, you 
> see those lists, but not the new one.
> 
> Again, everything tells me it's the web server running the site five
> cgi_bin/* wrappers regardless of which host you go to.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> 
> 



From savoy at uleth.ca  Fri Mar 24 18:08:10 2006
From: savoy at uleth.ca (Jim Savoy)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:08:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] shunting problem (unpack list of wrong size)
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603231944560531c153dcab@msapiro>
References: <PC1740200603231944560531c153dcab@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4424277A.4000007@uleth.ca>


>Also, can you do either bin/dumpdb or bin/show_qfiles on the shunt
>queue entry and perhaps see what the problem with the message is?
>
>  
>
OK Mike - here is the dumbdb (the names were changed to protect the 
innocent). I don't
see anything unusual, and I should point out that this list has been up 
and running for
years without incident, and all of its users (only a dozen or so) have 
sent to it
successfully until a couple of weeks ago, using the same mail clients 
they've always
used. I even blew away and re-created the list from scratch last week, 
and it was
working fine until yesterday. Now, no users can send to it (myself 
included). Everything
is put right into the shunt dira dn it stays there and cannot be 
unshunted. Thanks.
This user is sending with the squirrelmail web program, but the list 
members use other
clients as well (most of the users on this particular list are Mac users).

==============================================================
[----- start pickle file -----]
<----- start object 1 ----->
 From usera at uleth.ca Wed Mar 22 21:27:56 2006
Received: from venus.netsrv.uleth.ca ([142.66.6.26]:47530
        helo=webmail.uleth.ca)
        by juliet.netsrv.uleth.ca with esmtpa (Exim 4.52) id 
1FMHQS-00055L-4S
        for ccc-l at uleth.ca; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 21:27:56 -0700
Received: from 142.66.34.6 (SquirrelMail authenticated user usera)
        by webmail.uleth.ca with HTTP; Wed, 22 Mar 2006 21:27:56 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID: <49183.142.66.34.6.1143088076.squirrel at webmail.uleth.ca>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 21:27:56 -0700 (MST)
From: User A <usera at uleth.ca>
To: ccc-l at uleth.ca
User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.5
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Importance: Normal
Subject: [ccc-l] Update
X-BeenThere: ccc-l at uleth.ca
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5
Precedence: list
List-Id: CCC Staff Mailing List <ccc-l.uleth.ca>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/ccc-l>,
        <mailto:ccc-l-request at uleth.ca?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Post: <mailto:ccc-l at uleth.ca>
List-Help: <mailto:ccc-l-request at uleth.ca?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/ccc-l>,
        <mailto:ccc-l-request at uleth.ca?subject=subscribe>

Hello all. Here is an update:

<----- start object 2 ----->
{   '_parsemsg': False,
    'lang': 'en',
    'listname': 'ccc-l',
    'original_sender': 'usera at uleth.ca',
    'origsubj': 'Update',
    'pipeline': [   'ToDigest',
                    'ToArchive',
                    'ToUsenet',
                    'AfterDelivery',
                    'Acknowledge',
                    'ToOutgoing'],
    'received_time': 1143088076.3202429,
    'recips': [   'userb at uleth.ca',
                  'usera at uleth.ca',
                  'userc at uleth.ca',
                  'userd at uleth.ca',
                  'usere at uleth.ca'],
    'tolist': 1,
    'version': 3,
    'whichq': '/mail/mailman/qfiles/in'}
[----- end pickle file -----]
====================================================




From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 24 18:28:52 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:28:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] shunting problem (unpack list of wrong size)
In-Reply-To: <4424277A.4000007@uleth.ca>
Message-ID: <PC174020060324092852087562c715bf@msapiro>

Jim Savoy wrote:
>
>here is the dumbdb (the names were changed to protect the 
>innocent). I don't
>see anything unusual, and I should point out that this list has been up 
>and running for
>years without incident, and all of its users (only a dozen or so) have 
>sent to it
>successfully until a couple of weeks ago, using the same mail clients 
>they've always
>used. I even blew away and re-created the list from scratch last week, 
>and it was
>working fine until yesterday.


The particular message you dumped looks OK. We've possibly got more
than one issue. I'd still like to see the rest of that traceback.


>Now, no users can send to it (myself 
>included). Everything
>is put right into the shunt dira dn it stays there and cannot be 
>unshunted. Thanks.
>This user is sending with the squirrelmail web program, but the list 
>members use other
>clients as well (most of the users on this particular list are Mac users).


The most likely cause of this immediate problem in Mailman 2.1.5 is a
bad message in the list's digest.mbox file. If you look at
lists/list_name/digest.mbox with an editor, and you can't immediately
see a 'problematic' header that you can fix, rename the digest.mbox to
something else. This will probably allow normal processing to resume.
You may be able to unshunt the shunted messages, but there is likely
still a bad one there that will cause the problem all over again.

It may also be difficult to properly recover the digest.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From savoy at uleth.ca  Fri Mar 24 19:59:41 2006
From: savoy at uleth.ca (Jim Savoy)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:59:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] shunting problem (unpack list of wrong size)
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060324092852087562c715bf@msapiro>
References: <PC174020060324092852087562c715bf@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4424419D.109@uleth.ca>


Mike wrote:

>It may also be difficult to properly recover the digest.
>
>  
>
Hi Mike - problem solved and it had nothing to do with python, Mailman 
or any
of the mail clients. When I went to edit the digest.mbox file I noticed 
it was 1.4 gigabytes
in size (!). And this from a list that was just re-created a week ago 
and only had 5
messages sent to it. Turns out the list owner set it up so that there 
was no limit
on the size of the files users were allowed to send and one of the users 
sent a
1.4 gig .sit (Stuffit) file to the list (probably inadvertantly). Our 
MTA (exim)
wouldn't have delivered it anyway, but Mailman and python were going wild
trying to accomodate this large attachment (memory exhausted, plus a huge
swap file being created each time), I also run a cron job every hour to 
unshunt
things and that certainly added to the chaos.

This also explains why other lists were either failing to deliver, or 
getting their
messages late. Mailman was busy doing other things.

It was not apparent from the messages in the shunt dir that this was a large
file. Only digest.mbox revealed that. I am going to go through all of 
our lists
now, searching for large digest files.

Thanks for all your help.

 - jim -



From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Fri Mar 24 20:00:16 2006
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 13:00:16 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Raw Archives
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603240816300062f4f83ebc@msapiro>
References: <PC1740200603240816300062f4f83ebc@msapiro>
Message-ID: <442441C0.4070702@washburn.edu>

I have access to the server myself.  Is there a command I can run to zip 
up the raw archive or is it generated on the fly?  I simply want to 
somehow send this raw archive to this woman.

Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Jewel wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I have a user that wants to download the raw archives of a list but this 
>>archive it 65MB and her PC hangs every time she tries to download it.  
>>Mine does too.  I am trying to determine if there is a way I can run a a 
>>command on the Mailman server which could zip the file, mail it to 
>>myself and then send it to her.  Or if there is another way of 
>>downloading the file via the web I can tell her.  Any suggestions or 
>>ideas anyone?
>>    
>>
>
>Only if you have command line access to the server or another way to
>run commands on the server (e.g., set up a cron job, ask someone to do
>it for you). You can't do this via Mailman.
>
>  
>

-- 
Jewel Makda
Student Computer Services Coordinator
Washburn University 
School of Law Library
1700 SW College
Topeka, KS 66621
785.670.1776 
Fax 785.670.3194





From ml at ancalagon.inka.de  Fri Mar 24 17:31:56 2006
From: ml at ancalagon.inka.de (Thomas Hochstein)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 17:31:56 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Released: Mailman 2.1.8b1
References: <44229C11.10308@is.kochi-u.ac.jp> <4422D07E.4050802@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alm.0603241731.2367@windlord.akallabeth.de>

Jim Popovitch schrieb:

> Is the attached Release notice related to the 2.1.8b1 release?

Yes.

> If so, why is it indicated as "stable"?

Because it is a beta release in the stable branch.

-thh


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 24 20:20:22 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:20:22 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Raw Archives
In-Reply-To: <442441C0.4070702@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032411202200621f986174@msapiro>

Jewel wrote:
>
>I have access to the server myself.  Is there a command I can run to zip 
>up the raw archive or is it generated on the fly?  I simply want to 
>somehow send this raw archive to this woman.

The raw archive is in the Mailman structure at
archives/private/<listname>.mbox/<listname>.mbox

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 24 20:25:55 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:25:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Not receive email when posting to list
In-Reply-To: <442441E2.60701@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603241125550515f4f8409a@msapiro>

Jana Nguyen wrote:
>
>>When you try to post, do you get an undeliverable notice from Postfix?
>>What's in the Postfix log.
>>  
>>
>Yes, I get:
>Mar 24 10:37:21 birn-holly postfix/qmgr[32157]: E5FAF75253: 
>to=<root at birn-holly.ucsd.edu>, relay=none, delay=196496, status=deferred 
>(delivery temporarily suspended: connect to 127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1]: 
>Connection refused)

Postfix is not properly configured to deliver mail to Mailman. See for
example <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node12.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From manlio_perillo at libero.it  Fri Mar 24 20:23:04 2006
From: manlio_perillo at libero.it (Manlio Perillo)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 17:23:04 -0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] strange porblem with apache
Message-ID: <44244718.70606@libero.it>

Hi.

I have installed Mailman on my test machine (Debian Sarge on VMWare) but
I have hit a strange problem.

Here is my configuration:

# mm_cfg.py
MAILMAN_SITE_LIST = 'mailman'

DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http:/%s/mailman/'
PRIVATE_ARCHIVE_URL = '/mailman/private'
IMAGE_LOGOS         = '/images/mailman/'

DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'lists.python.mydebian'
DEFAULT_URL_HOST   = 'lists.python.mydebian'

POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS  = ['lists.python.mydebian']

# apache2
<VirtualHost *:80>
  ServerName lists.python.mydebian

  ServerAdmin webmaster at python.mydebian

  Alias /images/mailman/ /var/lib/mailman/icons/
  Alias /pipermail/ /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/

  <Directory "/var/lib/mailman/archives/public">
    AddDefaultCharset Off
  </Directory>

  ScriptAlias /mailman/ /usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman/

  RedirectMatch ^/$ /mailman/listinfo

  CustomLog /var/log/apache2/access_python_lists.log combined
</VirtualHost>



The problem is with the web interfaces.
On
http://lists.python.mydebian/mailman/listinfo

I get links of type:
http://lists.python.mydebian/lists.python.mydebian/mailman/admin

instead of
http://lists.python.mydebian/mailman/admin

Why?

The strange thing is the the *source* page has the correct links; the
same if I read the page with python httplib...



Thanks and regards  Manlio Perillo


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 24 21:00:08 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:00:08 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] strange porblem with apache
In-Reply-To: <44244718.70606@libero.it>
Message-ID: <PC174020060324120008076517655865@msapiro>

Manlio Perillo wrote:
>
>I have installed Mailman on my test machine (Debian Sarge on VMWare) but
>I have hit a strange problem.
>
>Here is my configuration:
>
># mm_cfg.py
>MAILMAN_SITE_LIST = 'mailman'
>
>DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http:/%s/mailman/'
>PRIVATE_ARCHIVE_URL = '/mailman/private'

What's this??  The only setting that's close is PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL
which defaults to

PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL = 'http://%(hostname)s/pipermail/%(listname)s'


>IMAGE_LOGOS         = '/images/mailman/'
>
>DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'lists.python.mydebian'
>DEFAULT_URL_HOST   = 'lists.python.mydebian'

if these are different from what's in Defaults.py, you also need

add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

and to be squeeky clean, you can precede this with
VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear() to remove the entry set in Defaults.py, i.e.,

VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)


<snip>
>
>The problem is with the web interfaces.
>On
>http://lists.python.mydebian/mailman/listinfo
>
>I get links of type:
>http://lists.python.mydebian/lists.python.mydebian/mailman/admin
>
>instead of
>http://lists.python.mydebian/mailman/admin
>
>Why?
>
>The strange thing is the the *source* page has the correct links; the
>same if I read the page with python httplib...


That is strange. If the source HTML has the correct link, why does your
browser mung it? is the source link absolute - i.e., does it start
with http://?

Did you create the list before arriving at the above mm_cfg.py
settings?. If so, the web_page_url list attribute is probably wrong.
The easiest way to fix it is with bin/fix_url.py.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Fri Mar 24 21:11:35 2006
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 14:11:35 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Raw Archives
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006032411202200621f986174@msapiro>
References: <PC17402006032411202200621f986174@msapiro>
Message-ID: <44245277.9090903@washburn.edu>

I found it.  This lady tried loading a raw archive from her pc but 
because the archive was 65MB her pc would lock up.  So she asked me if 
there was a better way of sending it to her or accessing it.  I went to 
the server, zipped the file down to 13MB and used YouSentit.com to 
upload the file and sent it to her that way.  Thanks!

Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Jewel wrote:
>  
>
>>I have access to the server myself.  Is there a command I can run to zip 
>>up the raw archive or is it generated on the fly?  I simply want to 
>>somehow send this raw archive to this woman.
>>    
>>
>
>The raw archive is in the Mailman structure at
>archives/private/<listname>.mbox/<listname>.mbox
>
>  
>

-- 
Jewel Makda
Student Computer Services Coordinator
Washburn University 
School of Law Library
1700 SW College
Topeka, KS 66621
785.670.1776 
Fax 785.670.3194





From lists at masonc.com  Sat Mar 25 01:14:07 2006
From: lists at masonc.com (Chris Mason (Lists))
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 20:14:07 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Keep getting empty bounces
Message-ID: <44248B4F.6040405@masonc.com>

I have setup some new lists on a new server and the lists seem to work 
fine, users get the mail, all is well.
However, after every post to the lists, I get loads of messages from 
mailman-bounces at mylistserver.com  to the mylist-admin at mylistserver.com 
with the subject "Uncaught bounce notification", and there is an 
attachment. However, the attachment, named ForwardedMessage.eml, is 
always blank, not even a subject, no headers, nothing. I have no idea 
what is causing this. Any suggestions?

-- 
Chris Mason
NetConcepts
(264) 497-5670 Fax: (264) 497-8463
Int:  (305) 704-7249 Fax: (815)301-9759 UK 44.207.183.0271
Cell: 264-235-5670
Yahoo IM: netconcepts_anguilla at yahoo.com 


-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.



From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar 25 03:22:32 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 18:22:32 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Keep getting empty bounces
In-Reply-To: <44248B4F.6040405@masonc.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603241822320031c3c2a4ff@msapiro>

Chris Mason wrote:

>I have setup some new lists on a new server and the lists seem to work 
>fine, users get the mail, all is well.
>However, after every post to the lists, I get loads of messages from 
>mailman-bounces at mylistserver.com  to the mylist-admin at mylistserver.com 


I assume that's a typo; they should be addressed to
mylist-owner at mylistserver.com.


>with the subject "Uncaught bounce notification", and there is an 
>attachment. However, the attachment, named ForwardedMessage.eml, is 
>always blank, not even a subject, no headers, nothing. I have no idea 
>what is causing this. Any suggestions?


I think your MUA (mail reader) is not showing you what's there. The
unrecognized bounce notice from Mailman does have the notice attached
as a message/rfc822 part, but the name ForwardedMessage.eml is made up
by your MUA; it is not in the notice.

If you can, look at the raw source of these messages, and see what you
see.

Since the messages come after posts are sent, they are almost certainly
responses to the posts. There has to be at least a Received: header in
the message delivered to the mylist-bounces address.

What's in the body of the notification message? It should be

 The attached message was received as a bounce, but either the bounce
 format was not recognized, or no member addresses could be extracted
 from it.  This mailing list has been configured to send all
 unrecognized bounce messages to the list administrator(s).

 For more information see:
 http://www.example.com/mailman/admin/LIST_NAME/bounce

 
-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From twills16 at cox.net  Sat Mar 25 05:25:21 2006
From: twills16 at cox.net (Tom Wills)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 21:25:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving of website (retry)
Message-ID: <4424C630.000003.01420@WIN2K>

I sent this eariler, but never saw it come through, so I am trying again.
 
I want to move my site to a different host. However, I don't see how I can 
move the mailman folders from one host to another. When I backup my files 
from the host, I see the mailman folders. But for me to upload them, I can't

 
drill down far enough on the new host to ftp them over. Is there a way to 
import all my archives from one host to another??? 
 
Thanks in advance!


From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar 25 05:43:59 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 20:43:59 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving of website (retry)
In-Reply-To: <4424C630.000003.01420@WIN2K>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603242043590406b1172ff1@msapiro>

Tom Wills wrote:

>I sent this eariler, but never saw it come through, so I am trying again.

See
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-March/050043.html>
and
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-March/050080.html>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From mengland at mengland.net  Sat Mar 25 06:35:41 2006
From: mengland at mengland.net (Matt England)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 23:35:41 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to automate single-sign-on across multiple apps?
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060324233511.04f2a310@127.0.0.1>

Summary:

How to automate single-sign-on across multiple apps...on the Mailman-side 
of things?


Details:

My project is making a collaboration web server that includes MediaWiki, 
Bugzilla, phpBB forums, Mailman lists, and other web-base applications.

We are trying to make our own single-login mechanism for all these 
apps.  We appear to have an LDAP-based "back end" account database working 
for the above apps, and we think we can make our own "one-stop" 
registration page form where a user can register once and instantly get 
accounts on all the above apps.

The trickier part:

How can we make a one-stop *login* page (different from registration page) 
that can automatically login said user to all the above apps, so they don't 
have to login manually to each one separately?

We presume we have to provide some sort of automation to make the above 
apps auto-download cookies to the client browser for each app.

A coworker of mine suggested some sort or "front end" form that passes 
login/password parameters to the "back end" forms to do this, 
automatically.  I think he referred to this as "screen scraping" (although 
I'm not sure of the nature or the meaning of that term).  Further, I'm not 
sure I'm thrilled about having the password flying inside my server via a 
URL, but alas it's a SSL-wrapped session, so maybe it doesn't matter.

In any case, I'm looking for suggestion on how to do this for Mailman.

Thanks for any help,
-Matt



From manlio_perillo at libero.it  Sat Mar 25 11:39:53 2006
From: manlio_perillo at libero.it (Manlio Perillo)
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 08:39:53 -0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] strange porblem with apache
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060324120008076517655865@msapiro>
References: <PC174020060324120008076517655865@msapiro>
Message-ID: <44251DF9.2070103@libero.it>

Mark Sapiro ha scritto:
> Manlio Perillo wrote:
>> I have installed Mailman on my test machine (Debian Sarge on VMWare) but
>> I have hit a strange problem.
>>
>> Here is my configuration:
>>
>> # mm_cfg.py
>> MAILMAN_SITE_LIST = 'mailman'
>>
>> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http:/%s/mailman/'
>> PRIVATE_ARCHIVE_URL = '/mailman/private'
> 
> What's this??  

> [...]

The configuration file is correct.

> 
> 
> <snip>
>> The problem is with the web interfaces.
>> On
>> http://lists.python.mydebian/mailman/listinfo
>>
>> I get links of type:
>> http://lists.python.mydebian/lists.python.mydebian/mailman/admin
>>
>> instead of
>> http://lists.python.mydebian/mailman/admin
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> The strange thing is the the *source* page has the correct links; the
>> same if I read the page with python httplib...
> 
> 
> That is strange. If the source HTML has the correct link, why does your
> browser mung it? is the source link absolute - i.e., does it start
> with http://?
> 

The link is correct:
<a href="http:/lists.python.mydebian/mailman/admin">

> Did you create the list before arriving at the above mm_cfg.py
> settings?. If so, the web_page_url list attribute is probably wrong.
> The easiest way to fix it is with bin/fix_url.py.
>

Already done, the problem is not here.

I have done tests with lynx, Mozilla, Firefox, Opera;
with all of them the browser add a lists.python.mydebian after the
domain name...


Moreover in a first installation (I have installed and removed the
mailman package up to 3 times for testing purpose) all was ok (but the
configuration was a bit different).



Thanks and regards  Manlio Perillo


From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar 25 16:06:51 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 07:06:51 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] strange porblem with apache
In-Reply-To: <44251DF9.2070103@libero.it>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032507065101259937f9d0@msapiro>

Manlio Perillo wrote:
>Mark Sapiro ha scritto:
>> Manlio Perillo wrote:
>>> PRIVATE_ARCHIVE_URL = '/mailman/private'
>> 
>> What's this??  
>
>> [...]
>
>The configuration file is correct.


There is no such setting as PRIVATE_ARCHIVE_URL and if there were I
would expect it to be a URL, not a path.

And do you have something like

VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

following your redefinitions of DEFAULT_URL_HOST and DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST?


>The link is correct:
><a href="http:/lists.python.mydebian/mailman/admin">
>
<snip>
>
>I have done tests with lynx, Mozilla, Firefox, Opera;
>with all of them the browser add a lists.python.mydebian after the
>domain name...


Does this only happen on admin pages? If it happens also to links on
the admin overview, the listinfo overview or a specific listinfo page,
perhaps you could give us a real URL so we can see the actual
generated HTML.

Or, you could try saving the HTML from one of the admin pages to a file
and opening the file in your web browser. If that still has the
problem, maybe you could make that file available to us via the web.


>Moreover in a first installation (I have installed and removed the
>mailman package up to 3 times for testing purpose) all was ok (but the
>configuration was a bit different).


Specifically what was different? And are you installing from source or
is this a debian or other package?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar 25 16:19:06 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 07:19:06 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Keep getting empty bounces
In-Reply-To: <44253E62.20106@masonc.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032507190606097066b507@msapiro>

Chris Mason wrote:
>
>Another strange thing, when I post from a moderator account by sending a 
>message, I get five replies. I get three bounces and two "TheOO post 
>from  requires approval", but with no subject and no sender.


I'm guessing that these too are bounces being returned to the list
address instead of or in addition to the list-bounces address.


>The only thing different I did was to recompile mailman to add vuser as 
>a group, to allow for my hosting software.


I think there may be some issue with the configuration of your outgoing
MTA. What happens if you send a message directly to one of these
addresses from the Mailman server using 'localhost' port 25 as the
smtp server? See the post at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2005-May/044742.html>
for a way to do this. If you try the script in that post with your own
address as both the From: and the value of 'env', you should receive
back exactly what Mailman receives when it sends.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Sat Mar 25 16:29:32 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 07:29:32 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Keep getting empty bounces
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006032507190606097066b507@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032507293200939629411d@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>I think there may be some issue with the configuration of your outgoing
>MTA.


Do the posts actually get delivered?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From manlio_perillo at libero.it  Sat Mar 25 17:58:43 2006
From: manlio_perillo at libero.it (Manlio Perillo)
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 14:58:43 -0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] strange porblem with apache
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006032507065101259937f9d0@msapiro>
References: <PC17402006032507065101259937f9d0@msapiro>
Message-ID: <442576C3.4060801@libero.it>

Mark Sapiro ha scritto:
> [...]
> And do you have something like
> 
> VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()
> add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
> 
> following your redefinitions of DEFAULT_URL_HOST and DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST?
> 

Yes, but I don't have a VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear().

> 
>> The link is correct:
>> <a href="http:/lists.python.mydebian/mailman/admin">
>>
> <snip>
>> I have done tests with lynx, Mozilla, Firefox, Opera;
>> with all of them the browser add a lists.python.mydebian after the
>> domain name...
> 
> 
> Does this only happen on admin pages? 

No.
I can't use any of the admin task, such as list creation.

> If it happens also to links on
> the admin overview, the listinfo overview or a specific listinfo page,
> perhaps you could give us a real URL so we can see the actual
> generated HTML.
> 

The actual generated HTML is ok.
The link is correct.
It is only the browser that seems to add that URL fragment.


Here is an example using httplib (sorry, but the language is italian):

>>> import httplib
>>> con = httplib.HTTPConnection('lists.python.mydebian')
>>> con.request('GET', '/mailman/listinfo')
>>> r = con.getresponse()
>>> print r.status, r.reason
200 OK
>>> print r.msg
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 03:38:24 GMT

Server: Apache/2.0.54 (Debian GNU/Linux) DAV/2 SVN/1.1.4
mod_python/3.1.3 Python/2.3.5 mod_ssl/2.0.54 OpenSSL/0.9.7e

Cache-control: no-cache

Transfer-Encoding: chunked

Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1


>>> print r.read()

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<LINK REL="SHORTCUT ICON" HREF="/images/mailman/mm-icon.png">
<META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<TITLE>Liste su lists.python.mydebian</TITLE>
</HEAD>

> [...]

        <p>Gli amministratori possono visitare <a
href="http:/lists.python.mydebian/mailman/admin">la pagina di
supervisione per gli amministratori</a> per trovare l'interfaccia di
gestione della tua lista.
         <p>Se hai difficolt&agrave;, invia domande o commenti a <a
href="mailto:mailman at lists.python.mydebian">mailman at lists.python.mydebian</a>.<p></td>
  </tr>

> [...]

</HTML>


As one can see, the link to /mailman/admin is correct.

But the browser sees the link as
http://lists.python.mydebian/lists.python.mydebian/mailman/admin


I really can't understand!
This seems to have nothing to do with Mailman or Apache


> Or, you could try saving the HTML from one of the admin pages to a file
> and opening the file in your web browser. If that still has the
> problem, maybe you could make that file available to us via the web.
> 
> 
>> Moreover in a first installation (I have installed and removed the
>> mailman package up to 3 times for testing purpose) all was ok (but the
>> configuration was a bit different).
> 
> 
> Specifically what was different? 

The links where correct.
As I can remember I had a:
POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS  = []

in mm_cfg.py


But now, even if I try to change some options, the result don't change...

> And are you installing from source or
> is this a debian or other package?
> 

debian precompiled package
  aptitude install mailman



Thanks and regards  Manlio Perillo


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Sat Mar 25 22:01:57 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 15:01:57 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] strange porblem with apache
In-Reply-To: <442576C3.4060801@libero.it>
References: <PC17402006032507065101259937f9d0@msapiro>
	<442576C3.4060801@libero.it>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603251301x257b2e43p97601b2b961e9b2a@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/25/06, Manlio Perillo <manlio_perillo at libero.it> wrote:
>         <p>Gli amministratori possono visitare <a
> href="http:/lists.python.mydebian/mailman/admin">la pagina di
> supervisione per gli amministratori</a> per trovare l'interfaccia di
> gestione della tua lista.

You are missing the extra forward-slash following http:. It should be
'http://lists...', but you have 'http:/lists...'

The problem is with your DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN that you listed in your first email
--
- Patrick Bogen


From msapiro at value.net  Sun Mar 26 01:30:19 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 16:30:19 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Keep getting empty bounces
In-Reply-To: <4425782F.3090102@masonc.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603251630190140ef466ebf@msapiro>

Chris Mason wrote:
>>
>I followed your instructions, thi sis the session:
>[root at server7 root]# python
>Python 2.2.3 (#1, Feb  2 2005, 12:20:51)
>[GCC 3.2.3 20030502 (Red Hat Linux 3.2.3-49)] on linux2
>Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> >>> import smtplib
> >>> msg = """Subject: Test Message
>... Message-Id: some-id at nowhere.example.com
>... From: masonc at masonc.com
>... To: You
>...
>... This is a test
>... """
> >>> rcpts = ['lists at masonc.com', 'netconcepts_anguilla at yahoo.com']


Are these the actual recipients that were "bouncing" on your test list?


> >>> env = 'mailman-bounces at picadoo.com'


I suggested that you put your own address here so the "bounces" would
come directly to you.


> >>> SMTPHOST = 'localhost'
> >>> SMTPPORT = 0
> >>> x = smtplib.SMTP()
> >>> x.connect(SMTPHOST, SMTPPORT)
>(220, 'server7.picadoo.com ESMTP Sendmail 8.12.11/8.12.11; Sat, 25 Mar 
>2006 12:20:49 -0400')
> >>> x.sendmail(env, rcpts, msg)
>{}
> >>>
>
>
>And the emails arrived as planned with no bounces.


In any case, this is just the way Mailman sends mail, so if there are
no "bounces" returned from this, I have no idea why there would be
bounces from list posts sent to the same addresses.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Sun Mar 26 01:39:50 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 16:39:50 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] strange porblem with apache
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00603251301x257b2e43p97601b2b961e9b2a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603251639500781ef46715f@msapiro>

Patrick Bogen wrote:
>
>You are missing the extra forward-slash following http:. It should be
>'http://lists...', but you have 'http:/lists...'
>
>The problem is with your DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN that you listed in your first email

Thank you Patrick! Now I feel foolish for not seeing it.

(and of course, after fixing mm_cfg.py and restarting Mailman, you
(Manlio) will have to run fix_url again to fix the lists)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From manlio_perillo at libero.it  Sun Mar 26 12:44:08 2006
From: manlio_perillo at libero.it (Manlio Perillo)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 08:44:08 -0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] strange porblem with apache
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00603251301x257b2e43p97601b2b961e9b2a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PC17402006032507065101259937f9d0@msapiro>	
	<442576C3.4060801@libero.it>
	<6fbe3da00603251301x257b2e43p97601b2b961e9b2a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44267078.1010105@libero.it>

Patrick Bogen ha scritto:
> On 3/25/06, Manlio Perillo <manlio_perillo at libero.it> wrote:
>>         <p>Gli amministratori possono visitare <a
>> href="http:/lists.python.mydebian/mailman/admin">la pagina di
>> supervisione per gli amministratori</a> per trovare l'interfaccia di
>> gestione della tua lista.
> 
> You are missing the extra forward-slash following http:. It should be
> 'http://lists...', but you have 'http:/lists...'
> 
> The problem is with your DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN that you listed in your first email

Thanks very much, really!



Regards  Manlio Perillo


From manlio_perillo at libero.it  Sun Mar 26 18:57:49 2006
From: manlio_perillo at libero.it (Manlio Perillo)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 14:57:49 -0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FAQ 6.9 on Debian Sarge
Message-ID: <4426C80D.9010508@libero.it>

Hi.

I hit the problem described in the FAQ 6.9.

However I don't want to
chmod 0666 data/aliases*

A better solution, IMHO, is:
chmod 0660 data/aliases.db
chmod 0660 data/virtual-mailman.db
adduser www-data list



Regards  Manlio Perillo






From tmz at pobox.com  Sun Mar 26 19:36:12 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 12:36:12 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FAQ 6.9 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <4426C80D.9010508@libero.it>
References: <4426C80D.9010508@libero.it>
Message-ID: <20060326173612.GA14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Manlio Perillo wrote:
> I hit the problem described in the FAQ 6.9.
> 
> However I don't want to
> chmod 0666 data/aliases*

Yuck.  Nor would I.  That shouldn't even be in the FAQ, AFAIAC.

> A better solution, IMHO, is:
> chmod 0660 data/aliases.db
> chmod 0660 data/virtual-mailman.db
> adduser www-data list

Really, since you're using a Debian package, the proper permissions
and groups should be setup by the package.  If there isn't already a
Debian bug filed for this, it seems like there ought to be.  If I were
a Debian user, I'd file it.

The instructions in the FAQ deal mostly with installing Mailman from
source, using the default settings/user/groups/etc.  When a
distributor makes changes, like Debian does with the file locations
and user/group, they should also be the ones that get the bug reports
for problems their changes introduce.  Trying to cover all the myriad
ways that a distributor might break various features in Mailman in the
FAQ tends to make the FAQ more complicated than it needs to be.

I'm not picking on Debian or implying that they're wrong to change
things to fit better within their system, just noting that the problem
is something that should be fixed in the Debian packaging.  The same
is true for any other vendor that packages Mailman.

All that said, I *think* that you ought to be able to use the general
solution in the FAQ, but instead of using chown mailman:mailman, use
chown root:list (or whatever user and group Debian installs mailman
under.  There shouldn't be a need to chmod anything to 0666.  That's
an accident waiting to happen.

Would anyone object to my changing that FAQ entry to remove this
suggestion for 0666 permissions and making a note that the chown
command should use whatever user/group values are used by your
distribution for Mailman?

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xD654075A | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.
    -- Adam Yauch

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: When crypto is outlawed bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.

iG0EARECAC0FAkQm0QwmGGh0dHA6Ly93d3cucG9ib3guY29tL350bXovcGdwL3Rt
ei5hc2MACgkQuv+09NZUB1ro+wCg+7W7fG3U0hNeN7w6qv58QE94SfMAn30JQrRe
sfpnUy/ON7bNqUOdy1En
=asTb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From msapiro at value.net  Sun Mar 26 19:51:48 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 09:51:48 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't update FAQ Wizard - permission error
Message-ID: <PC1740200603260951480234c864ff5a@msapiro>

I attempted to edit FAQ 6.9 to add a link to
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-March/050182.html>,
and when I 'Commit', I get the following error:

Can't write file faq06.009.htp ([Errno 13] Permission denied:
'faq06.009.htp').

Also, the edit I made on March 24 to FAQ 3.14 is not there. I don't
know if I got the same error then and didn't notice, or if the FAQ was
somehow rolled back (the edit is not in the log either). The addition
(FAQ 6.18) I made on March 21, is OK.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From manlio_perillo at libero.it  Sun Mar 26 20:09:13 2006
From: manlio_perillo at libero.it (Manlio Perillo)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 16:09:13 -0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FAQ 6.9 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <20060326173612.GA14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <4426C80D.9010508@libero.it>
	<20060326173612.GA14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <4426D8C9.6040504@libero.it>

Todd Zullinger ha scritto:
> Manlio Perillo wrote:
>>> I hit the problem described in the FAQ 6.9.
>>>
>>> However I don't want to
>>> chmod 0666 data/aliases*
> 
> Yuck.  Nor would I.  That shouldn't even be in the FAQ, AFAIAC.
> 

A mistake?

>>> A better solution, IMHO, is:
>>> chmod 0660 data/aliases.db
>>> chmod 0660 data/virtual-mailman.db
>>> adduser www-data list
> 
> Really, since you're using a Debian package, the proper permissions
> and groups should be setup by the package.  If there isn't already a
> Debian bug filed for this, it seems like there ought to be.  If I were
> a Debian user, I'd file it.
> 

Yes, I will do it.
I just forget to ask if this could be a debian package bug.
Maybe there is a better solution.

> [...]
> I'm not picking on Debian or implying that they're wrong to change
> things to fit better within their system, just noting that the problem
> is something that should be fixed in the Debian packaging.  The same
> is true for any other vendor that packages Mailman.
> 

Yes.
But I'm sure I'm not the only one to use Mailman on a Debian!
Nobody hits this problem?
All of them use newlist to create a new mailing list?

> All that said, I *think* that you ought to be able to use the general
> solution in the FAQ, but instead of using chown mailman:mailman, use
> chown root:list (or whatever user and group Debian installs mailman
> under.  

No.
This is already the default setting.
Owner: root
Group: list

Also, aliases and virtual-mailman have the "right" permission.
The only problem, as I can see, is that the hash files are not group
writeable.


> There shouldn't be a need to chmod anything to 0666.  That's
> an accident waiting to happen.
> 

But if the files are not group writeable, how can the CGI script modify
them?




Regards  Manlio Perillo


From msapiro at value.net  Sun Mar 26 20:28:06 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 10:28:06 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FAQ 6.9 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <4426D8C9.6040504@libero.it>
Message-ID: <PC174020060326102806029630decd4e@msapiro>

Manlio Perillo wrote:
>
>But if the files are not group writeable, how can the CGI script modify
>them?


Yes, they need to be group writable, but they shouldn't need to be
world writable.

The question is what should the FAQ say (moot at the moment, because
the FAQ apparently can't be updated, but I trust that will be fixed)?

I don't understand the need for the 'adduser' you mentioned in your
first post. Perhaps you can clarify what the permissions, etc. are in
the Debian package as shipped, and what is required so we can get the
FAQ right. Is it sufficient to

chmod 0660 data/aliases.db
chmod 0660 data/virtual-mailman.db

and if so, why would Steinmetz <admin at destination-linux.org> say

 On Debian Sarge mailman:mailman does not exist
 The only way I found was to chmod 0666 data/aliases*

(from
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=log&file=faq06.009.htp>)?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From manlio_perillo at libero.it  Sun Mar 26 21:17:52 2006
From: manlio_perillo at libero.it (Manlio Perillo)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 17:17:52 -0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FAQ 6.9 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060326102806029630decd4e@msapiro>
References: <PC174020060326102806029630decd4e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4426E8E0.2020207@libero.it>

Mark Sapiro ha scritto:
> Manlio Perillo wrote:
>> But if the files are not group writeable, how can the CGI script modify
>> them?
> 
> 
> Yes, they need to be group writable, but they shouldn't need to be
> world writable.
> 

Ok.
I just notice that there exist a bug report:
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=235112

On Woody the alias file gets updates, the problem is with virtual-mailman!

I have submitted a new bug report.

> The question is what should the FAQ say (moot at the moment, because
> the FAQ apparently can't be updated, but I trust that will be fixed)?
> 
> I don't understand the need for the 'adduser' you mentioned in your
> first post. 

In Debian Sarge Apache2 runs under www-data user and group privileges
(and so the CGI cgi-bin/create).

This means that, in order for the script to modify the alias* files,
www-data should be in the list group.
Or, as written in the FAQ, these files have to be world writeable.

> Perhaps you can clarify what the permissions, etc. are in
> the Debian package as shipped, and what is required so we can get the
> FAQ right. Is it sufficient to
> 
> chmod 0660 data/aliases.db
> chmod 0660 data/virtual-mailman.db
> 

Yes.

> and if so, why would Steinmetz <admin at destination-linux.org> say
> 
>  On Debian Sarge mailman:mailman does not exist
>  The only way I found was to chmod 0666 data/aliases*
> 

The FAQ say:
chmod 0666 data/aliases*
(as mailman:mailman does not exist - permissions are for root:list)


Indeed permissions are root:list.
But I don't understand why to allow them to be world writeable.



P.S.
I'm not a Unix expert!



Regards  Manlio Perillo


From msapiro at value.net  Sun Mar 26 21:30:18 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 11:30:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FAQ 6.9 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <4426E8E0.2020207@libero.it>
Message-ID: <PC174020060326113018067123671691@msapiro>

Manlio Perillo wrote:
>
>In Debian Sarge Apache2 runs under www-data user and group privileges
>(and so the CGI cgi-bin/create).
>
>This means that, in order for the script to modify the alias* files,
>www-data should be in the list group.
>Or, as written in the FAQ, these files have to be world writeable.


This should not be required because the Mailman cgi-bin/create wrapper
should be group owned by 'list' and SETGID. This means the create
script is no longer running as the group of 'www-data', it is already
running in the 'list' group, so it should not be necessary to add
'www-data' to the 'list' group.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From manlio_perillo at libero.it  Sun Mar 26 21:42:18 2006
From: manlio_perillo at libero.it (Manlio Perillo)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 17:42:18 -0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FAQ 6.9 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060326113018067123671691@msapiro>
References: <PC174020060326113018067123671691@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4426EE9A.5080204@libero.it>

Mark Sapiro ha scritto:
> Manlio Perillo wrote:
>> In Debian Sarge Apache2 runs under www-data user and group privileges
>> (and so the CGI cgi-bin/create).
>>
>> This means that, in order for the script to modify the alias* files,
>> www-data should be in the list group.
>> Or, as written in the FAQ, these files have to be world writeable.
> 
> 
> This should not be required because the Mailman cgi-bin/create wrapper
> should be group owned by 'list' and SETGID. This means the create
> script is no longer running as the group of 'www-data', it is already
> running in the 'list' group, so it should not be necessary to add
> 'www-data' to the 'list' group.
> 

Oh, you are right!
I have just tested it and works.




Thanks and regards  Manlio Perillo



From tmz at pobox.com  Sun Mar 26 21:49:21 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 14:49:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FAQ 6.9 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <4426D8C9.6040504@libero.it>
References: <4426C80D.9010508@libero.it>
	<20060326173612.GA14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<4426D8C9.6040504@libero.it>
Message-ID: <20060326194921.GC14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Manlio Perillo wrote:
> Todd Zullinger ha scritto:
>>>>
>>>> However I don't want to
>>>> chmod 0666 data/aliases*
>> 
>> Yuck.  Nor would I.  That shouldn't even be in the FAQ, AFAIAC.
>> 
> 
> A mistake?

It's one way to solve the problem.  Just not one that I would
recommend. :)

The FAQ is (usually) self-service, meaning that anyone can edit it.
In this case, I think that a better solution exists on Sarge than the
one listed.

>> I'm not picking on Debian or implying that they're wrong to change
>> things to fit better within their system, just noting that the problem
>> is something that should be fixed in the Debian packaging.  The same
>> is true for any other vendor that packages Mailman.
>> 
> 
> Yes.
> But I'm sure I'm not the only one to use Mailman on a Debian!
> Nobody hits this problem?
> All of them use newlist to create a new mailing list?

I doubt you're the only one.  But IIRC, the default MTA on Debian is
Exim.  So there are probably less users testing the postfix
integration in the packages.  That's my guess.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xD654075A | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
To succeed, jump as quickly at opportunities as you do at conclusions.
    -- Benjamin Franklin

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: When crypto is outlawed bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.

iG0EARECAC0FAkQm8EEmGGh0dHA6Ly93d3cucG9ib3guY29tL350bXovcGdwL3Rt
ei5hc2MACgkQuv+09NZUB1rjigCg+p9worIZGp7z6zWtSMiSc3j+Ob4AoPO8Rig3
jCAyl+Mth8tZbY6mk2Oh
=HzQ+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From manlio_perillo at libero.it  Sun Mar 26 21:54:39 2006
From: manlio_perillo at libero.it (Manlio Perillo)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 17:54:39 -0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FAQ 6.9 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <20060326194921.GC14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <4426C80D.9010508@libero.it>	<20060326173612.GA14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>	<4426D8C9.6040504@libero.it>
	<20060326194921.GC14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <4426F17F.70006@libero.it>

Todd Zullinger ha scritto:
> [...]
>>> But I'm sure I'm not the only one to use Mailman on a Debian!
>>> Nobody hits this problem?
>>> All of them use newlist to create a new mailing list?
> 
> I doubt you're the only one.  

;-)

> But IIRC, the default MTA on Debian is
> Exim.  So there are probably less users testing the postfix
> integration in the packages.  That's my guess.
> 

You are right, but, as an example, Postfix is used on:
http://www.debianhelp.co.uk/mailman.htm

(maybe Postfix was the default up to Woody?)



Regards  Manlio Perillo


From tmz at pobox.com  Sun Mar 26 22:02:42 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 15:02:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FAQ 6.9 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060326102806029630decd4e@msapiro>
References: <4426D8C9.6040504@libero.it>
	<PC174020060326102806029630decd4e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20060326200242.GD14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> I don't understand the need for the 'adduser' you mentioned in your
> first post. Perhaps you can clarify what the permissions, etc. are in
> the Debian package as shipped, and what is required so we can get the
> FAQ right. Is it sufficient to
> 
> chmod 0660 data/aliases.db
> chmod 0660 data/virtual-mailman.db
> 
> and if so, why would Steinmetz <admin at destination-linux.org> say
> 
>  On Debian Sarge mailman:mailman does not exist
>  The only way I found was to chmod 0666 data/aliases*
> 
> (from
> <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=log&file=faq06.009.htp>)?

I would wager that Steinmetz tried to follow the FAQ as written but
was thrown off by the fact that Debian doesn't use mailman as the
owner or group for the mailman files.  And if you're not familiar with
how postfix works and runs the postalias command as the user/group of
the alias file, you might resort to a chmod 0666.

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xD654075A | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
Wisdom has two parts: (1) having a lot to say and (2) not saying it.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: When crypto is outlawed bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.

iG0EARECAC0FAkQm82ImGGh0dHA6Ly93d3cucG9ib3guY29tL350bXovcGdwL3Rt
ei5hc2MACgkQuv+09NZUB1qIsgCfein4W3SM9uDKVngs0xC5Pzz/dGMAoOmGszBM
BlY9pCHoBqt1IWuvx4E9
=C17b
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From tmz at pobox.com  Sun Mar 26 22:08:37 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 15:08:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FAQ 6.9 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <4426F17F.70006@libero.it>
References: <4426C80D.9010508@libero.it>
	<20060326173612.GA14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<4426D8C9.6040504@libero.it>
	<20060326194921.GC14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
	<4426F17F.70006@libero.it>
Message-ID: <20060326200837.GE14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Manlio Perillo wrote:
> Todd Zullinger ha scritto:
> 
>> But IIRC, the default MTA on Debian is Exim.  So there are probably
>> less users testing the postfix integration in the packages.  That's
>> my guess.
>> 
> 
> You are right, but, as an example, Postfix is used on:
> http://www.debianhelp.co.uk/mailman.htm

I notice that they don't use the web interface to create a list in
that tutorial.  Perhaps that's why there's no note of potential
troubles?

> (maybe Postfix was the default up to Woody?)

That I couldn't tell you.  I don't know for sure that Exim is the
default in Sarge either.  It's just what I thought I've seen.  I'm not
a Debianista. :)

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xD654075A | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
It seems a little silly now, but this country was founded as a protest
against taxation.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: When crypto is outlawed bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.

iG0EARECAC0FAkQm9MUmGGh0dHA6Ly93d3cucG9ib3guY29tL350bXovcGdwL3Rt
ei5hc2MACgkQuv+09NZUB1qtBwCg+fcA8Y0coIXotQbZpU0K6DKMOZ4AnjmCQHlo
M3s/uleGHhO3g4tuWpAx
=5eND
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From msapiro at value.net  Sun Mar 26 22:16:26 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 12:16:26 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FAQ 6.9 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <20060326194921.GC14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603261216260000662d2a3a@msapiro>

Todd Zullinger wrote:
>
>The FAQ is (usually) self-service, meaning that anyone can edit it.
>In this case, I think that a better solution exists on Sarge than the
>one listed.

Now that I finally (I think) have this straight in my mind, I think
Todd's original suggested change for the FAQ is good with the possible
addition of a reference to data/virtual-mailman* as well, but we'll
have to wait for the permission issue to be resolved before anyone can
make the update.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From manlio_perillo at libero.it  Sun Mar 26 22:30:12 2006
From: manlio_perillo at libero.it (Manlio Perillo)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 18:30:12 -0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FAQ 6.9 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <20060326200242.GD14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <4426D8C9.6040504@libero.it>	<PC174020060326102806029630decd4e@msapiro>
	<20060326200242.GD14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <4426F9D4.2000306@libero.it>

Todd Zullinger ha scritto:
> [...]
> I would wager that Steinmetz tried to follow the FAQ as written but
> was thrown off by the fact that Debian doesn't use mailman as the
> owner or group for the mailman files.  And if you're not familiar with
> how postfix works and runs the postalias command as the user/group of
> the alias file, you might resort to a chmod 0666.
> 


In this specific case, postalias is run by mailman create CGI script

Traceback (most recent call last):
      File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/driver", line 87, in run_main
        main()
      File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 55, in main
        process_request(doc, cgidata)
      File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/create.py", line 217, in
process_request
        sys.modules[modname].create(mlist, cgi=1)
      File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 226, in create
        _update_maps()
      File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py", line 47, in
_update_maps
        raise RuntimeError, msg % (acmd, status, errstr)
    RuntimeError: command failed: /usr/sbin/postalias
/usr/local/mailman/data/aliases (status: 1, Operation not permitted)




Regards  Manlio Perillo


From manlio_perillo at libero.it  Sun Mar 26 22:35:53 2006
From: manlio_perillo at libero.it (Manlio Perillo)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 18:35:53 -0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FAQ 6.9 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <20060326200837.GE14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <4426C80D.9010508@libero.it>	<20060326173612.GA14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>	<4426D8C9.6040504@libero.it>	<20060326194921.GC14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>	<4426F17F.70006@libero.it>
	<20060326200837.GE14580@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <4426FB29.3030600@libero.it>

Todd Zullinger ha scritto:
> [...]
>>>> But IIRC, the default MTA on Debian is Exim.  So there are probably
>>>> less users testing the postfix integration in the packages.  That's
>>>> my guess.
>>>>
>>> You are right, but, as an example, Postfix is used on:
>>> http://www.debianhelp.co.uk/mailman.htm
> 
> I notice that they don't use the web interface to create a list in
> that tutorial.  Perhaps that's why there's no note of potential
> troubles?
> 

Dunno.
I have submitted the bug and the solution.
I'm waiting some response from the package maintainer.
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=359134


>>> (maybe Postfix was the default up to Woody?)
> 
> That I couldn't tell you.  I don't know for sure that Exim is the
> default in Sarge either.  It's just what I thought I've seen.  I'm not
> a Debianista. :)
> 

Yes, Exim is the default on Debian Sarge.
I had to install Postfix on my test machine because this is the MTA on
the production server (http://python.it)



Regards  Manlio Perillo


From bgmahesh at gmail.com  Mon Mar 27 04:05:46 2006
From: bgmahesh at gmail.com (BG Mahesh)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 07:35:46 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderator not getting copy of emails
Message-ID: <5227ac5c0603261805y373de7a6y6bc732d6b5eee6fa@mail.gmail.com>

hi

When the moderator of the list sends an email to the list he is not getting
a single copy of his own email. I checked the settings of the moderator and
it looks ok [I see "no dupes" checked for the moderator].

What could I be doing wrong?

--
--
B.G. Mahesh


From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 27 04:38:53 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 18:38:53 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderator not getting copy of emails
In-Reply-To: <5227ac5c0603261805y373de7a6y6bc732d6b5eee6fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032618385301186d9b662b@msapiro>

BG Mahesh wrote:
>
>When the moderator of the list sends an email to the list he is not getting
>a single copy of his own email. I checked the settings of the moderator and
>it looks ok [I see "no dupes" checked for the moderator].


"Nodups" should not be the problem unless his address is in To: or Cc:
of the post.

If nodups is the only thing checked, click his address in the admin
Membership List to go to his options page and check the 'topics'
settings.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From bob at eawf.com  Mon Mar 27 04:58:33 2006
From: bob at eawf.com (Bob Holden)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 18:58:33 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users]  No module named korean
Message-ID: <200603261858330765.0D928635@eawf.com>

Not sure if you're still working on this, but it's still happening on a CentOS4.2 server with the latest tarball.

Installing Python-Devel fixed the problem.

Bob Holden
EAWF




From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 27 07:04:21 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 21:04:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] No module named korean
In-Reply-To: <200603261858330765.0D928635@eawf.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603262104210790d932c56b@msapiro>

Bob Holden wrote:

>Not sure if you're still working on this, but it's still happening on a CentOS4.2 server with the latest tarball.


The tarball contains misc/KoreanCodecs-2.0.5.tar.gz. The Makefile built
by configure in the misc/ directory and run by the main Makefile
should install the korean package in the pythonlib/ directory in the
Mailman installation. The pythonlib/ directory is included in sys.path
by the various paths.py modules the import korean.

What part of this process is not happening in your case?


>Installing Python-Devel fixed the problem.


Presumably because this package installed Korean Codecs in the Python
library, but that doesn't explain why they weren't installed and/or
found in Mailman's pythonlib/ in the first place.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From manlio_perillo at libero.it  Mon Mar 27 10:55:05 2006
From: manlio_perillo at libero.it (Manlio Perillo)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 06:55:05 -0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FAQ 6.9 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <4426C80D.9010508@libero.it>
References: <4426C80D.9010508@libero.it>
Message-ID: <4427A869.4010406@libero.it>

Manlio Perillo ha scritto:
> Hi.
> 
> I hit the problem described in the FAQ 6.9.
> 
> However I don't want to
> chmod 0666 data/aliases*
> 
> A better solution, IMHO, is:
> chmod 0660 data/aliases.db
> chmod 0660 data/virtual-mailman.db
> adduser www-data list
> 
> 


I have done more investigations and the problem seems to be postalias in
the Postfix distribution.

Mailman explicitly set the umask to 002 but postalias ignore it.
Moreover in the manual page it is stated that, without the -p option,
postalias should inherit file permission from the input file.



Regards  Manlio Perillo


From shawlabanjo at gmail.com  Mon Mar 27 21:59:09 2006
From: shawlabanjo at gmail.com (Sola Sobanjo)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:59:09 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: list members not receiving mails but mails
	archiving
In-Reply-To: <20060327195252.94A83E3995@mail.wooz.org>
References: <7f06c6850603271152h1dd47a50m7ab0ba48174df0ec@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060327195252.94A83E3995@mail.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <7f06c6850603271159v1085698m56e25449e4f139a5@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

We have a little problem with our mailinglist using mailman2.1.5, and we
would really appreciate it if you can help rectify this problem ASAP as we
are in an online conference.

As stated in the subject line, Mails refused to go out to members of the
list a couple of hours ago (8 hours thereabout). After one of the moderators
sent a couple of mails with various attachements.  The list only got one of
the mails but not the others.

We have tried everything but it seems not to be working every other mails
sent after that has not reached the list BUT is has been archived.

We need to have this problem sorted out for us as soon as you can get to it.

Thank you very much

Sola


From msapiro at value.net  Mon Mar 27 22:09:49 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 12:09:49 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: list members not receiving mails but
	mailsarchiving
In-Reply-To: <7f06c6850603271159v1085698m56e25449e4f139a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC174020060327120949071896d6ccbf@msapiro>

Sola Sobanjo wrote:
>
>As stated in the subject line, Mails refused to go out to members of the
>list a couple of hours ago (8 hours thereabout). After one of the moderators
>sent a couple of mails with various attachements.  The list only got one of
>the mails but not the others.


Based on the above, I would guess the problem is something in
lists/LISTNAME/digest.mbox and renaming this file will clear it, but


>We have tried everything but it seems not to be working every other mails
>sent after that has not reached the list BUT is has been archived.


ToDigest precedes ToArchive in the default pipeline, so if the
digest.mbox is the problem, I would expect the messages to not be
archived.


>We need to have this problem sorted out for us as soon as you can get to it.


If the above is not the solution, we need more information. In
particular, what's in Mailman's 'error' log?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Tue Mar 28 05:14:16 2006
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:14:16 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Editing html
Message-ID: <e51a3e5fd3.e5fd3e51a3@washburn.edu>

I want to edit the html for the my listinfo page.  I have searched
online but have not found any information.  Is the listinfo page
generated on the fly?  I can't locate in my directory exactly whre it
is.  I looked in /var/www/  and only saw my index.html page.  Also, this
question may seem impossible to answer but does anyone have a diagram or
illustration which might help me understand how Mailman works better.  I
am an extreme newbie (2 months only) and was able to replace an existing
mailman server but had to have instructions from my predecessor to do
it.  I am a visual person and wondered if something like this was
floating around.  If not, that's cool.


Thanks,
Jewel 




From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 28 05:47:05 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 19:47:05 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Editing html
In-Reply-To: <e51a3e5fd3.e5fd3e51a3@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032719470502031e31d350@msapiro>

jewel.brueggeman-makda wrote:

>I want to edit the html for the my listinfo page.  I have searched
>online but have not found any information.  Is the listinfo page
>generated on the fly?


It is generated on the fly (by Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py) based on a
template (listinfo.html).


>I can't locate in my directory exactly whre it
>is.  I looked in /var/www/  and only saw my index.html page.


The base templates for a given language are in the
templates/<language>/ directory. See,
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.048.htp>
for information on where to put edited templates in general to be used
for a specific list, domain or sitewide.

In the case of the listinfo template, a list specific template can be
created/edited by following the "Edit the public ..." link under
"Other Administrative Activities" on any of the list's admin pages and
then selecting "General list information page".


>Also, this
>question may seem impossible to answer but does anyone have a diagram or
>illustration which might help me understand how Mailman works better.


Mail to any of the list(-*) addresses is piped by the incoming MTA to
the mail/mailman wrapper which invokes a script in the scripts/
directory which puts the message in one of the queues. The queues are
processed by qrunners started by bin/mailmanctl. The message flow is
diagrammed in the Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py module.

The web interface (except public archives which are accessed directly)
invokes wrappers in Mailman's cgi-bin directory which in turn invoke
scripts in Mailman/Cgi/ to do the work.

There's no PLM (Program Logic Manual) per se for Mailman.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From fmpage at free.fr  Tue Mar 28 12:29:39 2006
From: fmpage at free.fr (fmpage at free.fr)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:29:39 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Personalization in the original email
Message-ID: <1143541779.44291013f0fca@imp4-g19.free.fr>

Hi,

I've been trying to get personalization working inside the body of the original
email instead of using header and footer.
I did manage to get it working in plain text and html format, by doing some
tweaking in the Decorate.py file.
However, the code I added to get it working for multipart/alternative does not
seem to work. See below:

sMsgToFormat=""
msgtype = msg.get_content_type()

if not msg.is_multipart():
   sMsgToFormat=msg.get_payload()

elif msgtype == 'multipart/alternative':
   sBoundary=msg.get_boundary()
   part=msg.get_payload()
   for val in part:
      sPart=sBoundary+'\n'+val.as_string()
      sMsgToFormat+=sPart
   sMsgToFormat+='\n'

#now replace substitute var that are formmated as [[variable]]
for key, val in d.iteritems():
   sMsgToFormat=string.replace(sMsgToFormat,'[['+key+']]',val)

#set the original message with the new content
msg.set_payload(sMsgToFormat)

The output generated seems ok when I look at the mail source on any client, but
the message does not show up at all.

Fred.


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 28 18:52:18 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 08:52:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Personalization in the original email
In-Reply-To: <1143541779.44291013f0fca@imp4-g19.free.fr>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032808521809841affbeaa@msapiro>

fmpage at free.fr wrote:
>
>I've been trying to get personalization working inside the body of the original
>email instead of using header and footer.
>I did manage to get it working in plain text and html format, by doing some
>tweaking in the Decorate.py file.
>However, the code I added to get it working for multipart/alternative does not
>seem to work. See below:
>
>sMsgToFormat=""
>msgtype = msg.get_content_type()
>
>if not msg.is_multipart():
>   sMsgToFormat=msg.get_payload()
>
>elif msgtype == 'multipart/alternative':
>   sBoundary=msg.get_boundary()
>   part=msg.get_payload()
>   for val in part:
>      sPart=sBoundary+'\n'+val.as_string()
>      sMsgToFormat+=sPart
>   sMsgToFormat+='\n'
>
>#now replace substitute var that are formmated as [[variable]]
>for key, val in d.iteritems():
>   sMsgToFormat=string.replace(sMsgToFormat,'[['+key+']]',val)
>
>#set the original message with the new content
>msg.set_payload(sMsgToFormat)
>
>The output generated seems ok when I look at the mail source on any client, but
>the message does not show up at all.


First, this is probably OT for mailman-users. I suggest you take any
follow ups to mailman-developers.

You have probably broken the MIME structure in some way. It is not
clear to me exactly how, but you are manipulating MIME parts outside
of the standard methods for doing so, so it's not surprising. Why not
just to something like:

    for part in msg.walk():
        if part.get_content_maintype() == 'text':
            del part['content-transfer-encoding']
            part.set_payload(DoReplacements(
                                part.get_payload(decode=True)))

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From kclair at gmail.com  Tue Mar 28 18:54:33 2006
From: kclair at gmail.com (kristina clair)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 08:54:33 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] permission problem saving attachments to archives
Message-ID: <dff375270603280854r54ef5cf0ob0e4ea95af50c10b@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I have a list that is producing the following error:

Mar 27 17:52:33 2006 (23421) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 13]
Permission denied:
'/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/attachments.lock.server.com.23421.174'

However the permissions on the main archives directory look ok to me?

# ls -al /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/
total 4
drwxrws---    3 user    mailman        41 Mar 27 16:34 .
drwxrws---    4 user    mailman        45 Feb 21 21:45 ..
drwxrwsr-x    2 user    mailman         6 Mar 27 16:34 attachments
-rw-rw----    1 user    mailman       488 Feb 21 22:00 index.html

I actually made that attachments directory myself to see if it would
help, but it did not.

What can I change to correct this error?

Thanks,
Kristina


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 28 19:00:26 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:00:26 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Personalization in the original email
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006032808521809841affbeaa@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC174020060328090026064065340efa@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>    for part in msg.walk():
>        if part.get_content_maintype() == 'text':
>            del part['content-transfer-encoding']
>            part.set_payload(DoReplacements(
>                                part.get_payload(decode=True)))


That probably won't work. How about

    for part in msg.walk():
        if part.get_content_maintype() == 'text':
            sMsgToFormat = part.get_payload(decode=True)
            del part['content-transfer-encoding']
            part.set_payload(DoReplacements(sMsgToFormat))

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From Jason at Weatherserver.net  Tue Mar 28 19:21:40 2006
From: Jason at Weatherserver.net (Jason [WeatherServer])
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:21:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Windows
Message-ID: <000801c6528c$13ae7fe0$1400000a@workstation>

Now I know in the FAQ there is info on how to setup mailman for windows but does anyone have it running on windows and does it run ok?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=Ottawa Valley Weather-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Weather @ 12:20pm - Temp: 24.6?C - Humidity 10% - Wind: N @ 0 km/h
Baro: 1025kPa Steady - Vis: 24km - Sky: Clear - Weather:
Rain - Past Hour: 0.00mm - 24hr: 0.00mm - Total:(09/15/05): 16.00mm

=-=-=-= Website: http://www.WeatherServer.net =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
EMAIL ALERT LISTS Signup at http://listserver.weatherserver.net  today.....


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 28 20:01:11 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 10:01:11 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Editing html
In-Reply-To: <44296FC9.3080002@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603281001110781b7ce3738@msapiro>

Jewel wrote:
>
>I wa able to edit listinfo.html but this is once you go into 
>each list.  What about the mail page.  Mine for example is:
>http://lists.washlaw.edu/mailman/listinfo


The listinfo overview page is built by Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py from
data coded in that module. There is no template for this one.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 28 20:13:36 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 10:13:36 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Windows
In-Reply-To: <000801c6528c$13ae7fe0$1400000a@workstation>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603281013360718c6735a72@msapiro>

Jason [WeatherServer] wrote:

>Now I know in the FAQ there is info on how to setup mailman for windows but
>does anyone have it running on windows and does it run ok?

I have a test Mailman running under Cygwin/Windows XP, but I wouldn't
run it on an open server. Mailman's security module is based on SETGID
wrappers and SETGID doesn't work on Cygwin/Windows. Thus you have to
give your web server potential access to everything without
necessarily going through the wrappers.

Other than that, it works fine:

Windows XP sp2
    Cygwin
        Latest Mailman Release_2_1-maint CVS branch
        Apache 1.3.33
        Exim 4.52

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Mar 28 20:29:53 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 10:29:53 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] permission problem saving attachments to
	archives
In-Reply-To: <dff375270603280854r54ef5cf0ob0e4ea95af50c10b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603281029530296d0cb6a7d@msapiro>

kristina clair wrote:
>
>Mar 27 17:52:33 2006 (23421) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 13]
>Permission denied:
>'/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/attachments.lock.server.com.23421.174'
>
>However the permissions on the main archives directory look ok to me?
>
># ls -al /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/
>total 4
>drwxrws---    3 user    mailman        41 Mar 27 16:34 .
>drwxrws---    4 user    mailman        45 Feb 21 21:45 ..
>drwxrwsr-x    2 user    mailman         6 Mar 27 16:34 attachments
>-rw-rw----    1 user    mailman       488 Feb 21 22:00 index.html
>
>I actually made that attachments directory myself to see if it would
>help, but it did not.
>
>What can I change to correct this error?

I don't know. Are you running SeLinux or anything with access controls
beyond the owner/group/other permissions?

Is there any structure below the
/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments directory? (what
does 'ls -lR /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments'
show?)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From julius at solutions-i.org  Wed Mar 29 00:58:01 2006
From: julius at solutions-i.org (P.I.Julius)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 17:58:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bouncing a user repeatedly.
Message-ID: <58264.70.90.89.149.1143586681.squirrel@hunor.net>

Hi,

I have a little problem with my mailman setup, and I would like to ask you
guys for an opinion about it. I have a few lists set up on my mailman, but
I just noticed that for one of my lists there is something wired going on.
The server keeps bouncing a user which is an unknown user, so I have a lot
of unwanted emails going on on my server. For eg. this is one of them:

Mar 28 17:50:48 lists postfix/smtpd[26762]: connect from
localhost.localdomain[127.0.0.1]
Mar 28 17:50:48 lists postfix/smtpd[26762]: 3DCF928002:
client=localhost.localdomain[127.0.0.1]
Mar 28 17:50:48 lists postfix/smtpd[26762]: 3DCF928002: reject: RCPT from
localhost.localdomain[127.0.0.1]: 450
<cva34.internetdsl.tpnet.pl at lists.hndomain.org>: User unknown in local
recipient table; from=<fk-bounces at lists.hndomain.org>
to=<cva34.internetdsl.tpnet.pl at lists.hndomain.org> proto=ESMTP
helo=<80-70-88-201-BusName-dc.hfc.ccs.net>
Mar 28 17:50:49 lists postfix/smtpd[26762]: disconnect from
localhost.localdomain[127.0.0.1]

As you can see the bounce is sent out from fk-bounces at lists.hndomain.org
to cva34.internetdsl.tpnet.pl at lists.hndomain.org but we don't have such an
user on our server, so why do we get all this emails sent out? it happens
every seconds, so it really uses a lot of cpu resources.

Could someone please help me with this?
Thanks in advance!
Julius




From mike114x at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 29 21:28:35 2006
From: mike114x at yahoo.com (michael mendoza)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 13:28:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman en debian,
	no envia los mail. mailman y postfix funciona bien
Message-ID: <20060329192836.70218.qmail@web33515.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hola que tal, estoy instalando mailman en  debian, ya instale el apache2, postfix (ya lo he probado y puedo enviar  y recibir correos)y estos funcionan sin ningun problema, instale  mailman y he leido los README, ya cree la lista mailman y por la  interfaz web http://dominio/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo  puedo crear listas y luego me puedo subscribir como usuario pero el  problema es q cuando creo una lista o me subscribo no se envia ningun  mail al admin ni al usuario, cuando veo los log de mail.log resulta q  no queda resgistrado nada de q se haya tratado de enviar un correo al  admin ni usuario, veo los log de maiman y tampoco hay ningun error  registrado. Tambien edite el archivo mm_cfg.py y coloque el dominio del  servidor de correo y el web.  
    
  Me faltara configurar algo mas?   
  Alguien ha instalado mailman en debian? para ver si me puede decir q mas debo hacer o q hizo el..?  
  Gracias...
__________________________________________________
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ?gratis! 
Reg?strate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ 

From lists at localguru.de  Wed Mar 29 21:30:08 2006
From: lists at localguru.de (Marcus Sobchak)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 21:30:08 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] encoding problem Umlauts - windows-1258
Message-ID: <1143660608.8552.16.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Hei,

I got the following error if some people using MS Outlook send mails
with german umlauts in the subject. Those mails don't go through! I'm
using Mailman 2.1.5 on debian woody. Is this a mailman or user side
problem?

Thanks,
Marcus

-----------
Subject:
        =?windows-1258?Q?Deutsch-Polnisches:_Anmeldung_jetzt?=
        =?windows-1258?Q?_m=F6glich?=
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:51:33 +0200
-----------

-----------
Mar 29 11:51:36 2006 (330) Uncaught runner exception: unknown encoding
Mar 29 11:51:36 2006 (330) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 111, in _oneloop
    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 167, in _onefile
    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130, in
_dispose
    more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153, in
_dopipeline
    sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py", line 74, in
process
    prefix_subject(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py", line 265, in
prefix_subject
    h.append(s, c)
  File
"/root/backport/mailman-2.1.5/debian/mailman/var/lib/mailman/pythonlib/email/Header.py", line 285, in append
LookupError: unknown encoding
-----------





From kclair at gmail.com  Wed Mar 29 21:48:41 2006
From: kclair at gmail.com (kristina clair)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:48:41 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] permission problem saving attachments to
	archives
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603281029530296d0cb6a7d@msapiro>
References: <dff375270603280854r54ef5cf0ob0e4ea95af50c10b@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1740200603281029530296d0cb6a7d@msapiro>
Message-ID: <dff375270603291148g64aa1662i75082e86ef655fd6@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/28/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> kristina clair wrote:
> >
> >Mar 27 17:52:33 2006 (23421) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 13]
> >Permission denied:
> >'/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/attachments.lock.server.com.23421.174'
> >
> >However the permissions on the main archives directory look ok to me?
> >
> ># ls -al /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/
> >total 4
> >drwxrws---    3 user    mailman        41 Mar 27 16:34 .
> >drwxrws---    4 user    mailman        45 Feb 21 21:45 ..
> >drwxrwsr-x    2 user    mailman         6 Mar 27 16:34 attachments
> >-rw-rw----    1 user    mailman       488 Feb 21 22:00 index.html
> >
> >I actually made that attachments directory myself to see if it would
> >help, but it did not.
> >
> >What can I change to correct this error?
>
> I don't know. Are you running SeLinux or anything with access controls
> beyond the owner/group/other permissions?

nope.

>
> Is there any structure below the
> /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments directory?

wellll :-)
/home/mailman/archives/private/membership is actually a symlink to a
directory in a user's account.  however, i don't really understand why
mailman should have trouble writing in that directory if it has all
the correct permissions?  mailman has no problems creating archives
without attachments in that directory (and in the membership.mbox
directory which is also a symlink).

> (what
> does 'ls -lR /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments'
> show?)

# ls -lR /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments
/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments:
total 0

Thanks,
Kristina


From msapiro at value.net  Wed Mar 29 23:29:45 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 13:29:45 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bouncing a user repeatedly.
In-Reply-To: <58264.70.90.89.149.1143586681.squirrel@hunor.net>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032913294501090764861a@msapiro>

P.I.Julius wrote:
>
>I have a little problem with my mailman setup, and I would like to ask you
>guys for an opinion about it. I have a few lists set up on my mailman, but
>I just noticed that for one of my lists there is something wired going on.
>The server keeps bouncing a user which is an unknown user, so I have a lot
>of unwanted emails going on on my server. For eg. this is one of them:
>
>Mar 28 17:50:48 lists postfix/smtpd[26762]: connect from
>localhost.localdomain[127.0.0.1]
>Mar 28 17:50:48 lists postfix/smtpd[26762]: 3DCF928002:
>client=localhost.localdomain[127.0.0.1]
>Mar 28 17:50:48 lists postfix/smtpd[26762]: 3DCF928002: reject: RCPT from
>localhost.localdomain[127.0.0.1]: 450
><cva34.internetdsl.tpnet.pl at lists.hndomain.org>: User unknown in local
>recipient table; from=<fk-bounces at lists.hndomain.org>
>to=<cva34.internetdsl.tpnet.pl at lists.hndomain.org> proto=ESMTP
>helo=<80-70-88-201-BusName-dc.hfc.ccs.net>
>Mar 28 17:50:49 lists postfix/smtpd[26762]: disconnect from
>localhost.localdomain[127.0.0.1]
>
>As you can see the bounce is sent out from fk-bounces at lists.hndomain.org
>to cva34.internetdsl.tpnet.pl at lists.hndomain.org but we don't have such an
>user on our server, so why do we get all this emails sent out? it happens
>every seconds, so it really uses a lot of cpu resources.


You say "we don't have such an user on our server". Does this mean that
cva34.internetdsl.tpnet.pl at lists.hndomain.org is not a member of the
"fk" list? Is there an address on that list for which there is an
alias in your MTA that is redirecting to
cva34.internetdsl.tpnet.pl at lists.hndomain.org in some way?

It looks like your MTA is returning a "450" status for this error. This
means Mailman is going to queue this message in the retry queue and
keep retrying it, but normally only once in 15 minutes, not every few
seconds.

Look at your Mailman logs 'post', 'smtp' and 'smtp-failure' and at the
contents of Mailman's qfiles/retry/ directory (queue) for clues.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From mike114x at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 29 23:46:16 2006
From: mike114x at yahoo.com (michael mendoza)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 15:46:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman in debian,
	mailman don`t send the mails to  users and admin, postfix work fine
Message-ID: <20060329214616.48342.qmail@web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi, I don`t write so much english but I`ll try.

I have a PC with debian sarge, I installed apache2,
postfix, postfix work fine, It send and receive mail
from and since anywhere such as hotmail, yahoo,
localhost. But the problems is with mailman, I
installed mailman and run dpkg-reconfigure mailman,
and  this tolk me than I have to create a newlist with
newlist mailman, and then I had to write somes lines
to the /etc/aliases, I did that, and I can see the web
with  http://mydomain/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo, i can
create new list but when I create this, don`t send a
mail to the admin of the list. and i can subscribe
with my name, mail, password but when a click on
Accept, don`t send me any mail. 

Need I run a script o sometime like that to work
mailman with with postfix or by default it work?

The problem, i think: mailman don`t comunicate with
postfix to send mail because I saw the mail.log when I
subscribed and there ins?t any mail to the user, and
the admin neither. 



__________________________________________________
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ?gratis! 
Reg?strate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ 


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar 30 00:11:32 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 14:11:32 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman in debian,
	mailman don`t send the mails to  users and admin, postfix work fine
In-Reply-To: <20060329214616.48342.qmail@web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603291411320093eef4cdfd@msapiro>

michael mendoza wrote:
>
>Need I run a script o sometime like that to work
>mailman with with postfix or by default it work?

You need to run the Mailman queue runners. I don't know if Debian has
it's own way of doing this by starting the Mailman service or
something like that. In Mailman installed from source this is done by

bin/mailmanctl start

Also see
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.014.htp>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dmoisset at grulic.org.ar  Thu Mar 30 00:28:57 2006
From: dmoisset at grulic.org.ar (Daniel F Moisset)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 19:28:57 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web archive problems...
Message-ID: <1143671337.30630.0.camel@dwarf.moisset>

Hi, I'm having some problems with Mailman 2.1.5. I run a mailman site
with several lists and none of them are getting archived in the internal
html private archive. The mboxes are being correctly updated, and the
HTML files can be updated manually by running the "arch" command.

The list configuration for archival options is:

archive: yes
archive_private: private
archive_volume_frequency: monthly

The site config for archival is:

ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX = 2 (actually set on Defaults.py)

I have also set values for PUBLIC_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER and
PRIVATE_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER to use also a secondary archiver.

Permissions seem to be ok (running the check_perms script), and the
"arch" commands updates the HTML archive correctly when running as user
list.

Any idea of what may be wrong?

Regards,
	Daniel


-- 
"Why program by hand in five days what you can spend five years of your
life automating."
            -- Terrence Parr, ANTLR author
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/attachments/20060329/f521b4c8/attachment.pgp 

From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar 30 01:17:47 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 15:17:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Web archive problems...
In-Reply-To: <1143671337.30630.0.camel@dwarf.moisset>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032915174701250691cdac@msapiro>

Daniel F Moisset wrote:
>
>ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX = 2 (actually set on Defaults.py)
>
>I have also set values for PUBLIC_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER and
>PRIVATE_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER to use also a secondary archiver.


I'm not actually sure whether this is a bug or an error (a bug is fixed
by changing the code; an error is fixed by changing the documentation
- or vice versa; it's an old joke, and I don't remember for sure).

In any case, the description of the settings for ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX in
Defaults.py does not agree with what the code does.
*_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER is an either/or situation. If you specify an
external archiver, it is used instead of the built in Pipermail
archiver, not in addition to.

This is apparently because the description of the ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX
settings predates the addition of the *_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER settings.
The NEWS file states under Mailman 1.1

    - New configuration variables PUBLIC_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER and
      PRIVATE_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER which can contain a shell command
      string for os.popen().  This can be used to invoke an external
      archiver instead of the bundled Pipermail archiver.  See
      Defaults.py for details.

Thus, it appears that the behavior is intentional.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Thu Mar 30 01:22:51 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 17:22:51 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman in debian,
	mailman don`t send the mails to users and admin, postfix work fine
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603291411320093eef4cdfd@msapiro>
References: <20060329214616.48342.qmail@web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<PC1740200603291411320093eef4cdfd@msapiro>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603291522r677110dlf70f7919e7665f7d@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/29/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> michael mendoza wrote:
> >
> >Need I run a script o sometime like that to work
> >mailman with with postfix or by default it work?
>
> You need to run the Mailman queue runners. I don't know if Debian has
> it's own way of doing this by starting the Mailman service or
> something like that. In Mailman installed from source this is done by
Debian installs a script in /etc/init.d/mailman that will start
everything up by running:

/etc/init.d/mailman start

as root. However, this only checks for the existence of the site list
and then runs mailmanctl.

--
- Patrick Bogen


From phelpsw at gmail.com  Thu Mar 30 02:18:14 2006
From: phelpsw at gmail.com (Phelps Williams)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:18:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 550 Recipient Address Rejected Error
Message-ID: <685b25860603291618teedce85ic869e586cb7ef1e6@mail.gmail.com>

After creating a new list with a (clearly not properly setup) new install of
mailman, when sending a message to the list address I get the following
error back:

This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification

Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

        testlist at mydomain.com

Technical details of permanent failure:
PERM_FAILURE: SMTP Error (state 9): 550 <testlist at mydomain.com>: Recipient
address rejected: User unknown in local recipient table

I pulled my actual domain out of this error.  Oddly enough all messages
regarding subscribing etc work just fine.  Users simply cannot post
messages.  Any ideas?  Thanks.


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar 30 02:39:06 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:39:06 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 550 Recipient Address Rejected Error
In-Reply-To: <685b25860603291618teedce85ic869e586cb7ef1e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006032916390602187523ef00@msapiro>

Phelps Williams wrote:
>
>Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:
>
>        testlist at mydomain.com
>
>Technical details of permanent failure:
>PERM_FAILURE: SMTP Error (state 9): 550 <testlist at mydomain.com>: Recipient
>address rejected: User unknown in local recipient table
>
>I pulled my actual domain out of this error.  Oddly enough all messages
>regarding subscribing etc work just fine.  Users simply cannot post
>messages.  Any ideas?  Thanks.

I don't know if this is it or not, but have you checked your aliases or
whatever this MTA uses to deliver to Mailman. From your description,
it seems as though maybe mail to the testlist-subscribe and
testlist-owner works or maybe not depending on what you mean by "all
messages regarding subscribing etc work just fine", but mail to
testlist doesn't.

See section 2) in
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.014.htp>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From carconni at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 30 02:42:25 2006
From: carconni at earthlink.net (Carconni)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:42:25 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] create multiple lists
Message-ID: <10317162.1143679345891.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Hi,

Were moving to mailman and I need to create over 250 "lists".  All the lists will have the same owner and and the same password.  Is there anyway to automate this?  I can set up a script to loop through a test file but how can I set the owner_mail = args[1] and listpasswd = args[2] to a default value?

Thanks


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar 30 03:22:54 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 17:22:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] create multiple lists
In-Reply-To: <10317162.1143679345891.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603291722540062f6de1534@msapiro>

Carconni wrote:
>
>Were moving to mailman and I need to create over 250 "lists".  All the lists will have the same owner and and the same password.  Is there anyway to automate this?  I can set up a script to loop through a test file but how can I set the owner_mail = args[1] and listpasswd = args[2] to a default value?

See

bin/newlist --help

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar 30 06:48:53 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 20:48:53 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] permission problem saving attachments to
	archives
In-Reply-To: <dff375270603291148g64aa1662i75082e86ef655fd6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603292048530921ac55204e@msapiro>

kristina clair

>On 3/28/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
>
>> (what
>> does 'ls -lR /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments'
>> show?)
>
># ls -lR /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments
>/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments:
>total 0


This is puzzling. Something is not right about this. Possibly the full
traceback will contradict me, but I think that Scrubber is in it's
save_attachment() function and is trying to lock the attachment
directory
(/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/
in this case) in order to keep other processes out while it computes a
unique file name to save the attachment. It is the lock.lock() call in
Scrubber that trys to create
/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/attachments.lock.server.com.23421.174.
However, well before this, Scrubber has called its makedirs() function
to create as necessary all the directories in
/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/,
and this apparently succeeded yet the directories 20060301/ and
20060301/cf7df1b6/ (and even the attachments/ directory initially)
don't exist.

Do these directories exist somewhere else?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dana at dnevins.com  Thu Mar 30 06:48:59 2006
From: dana at dnevins.com (Dana Nevins)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 20:48:59 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Batch Processing
In-Reply-To: <mailman.13118.1143677898.27774.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <011101c653b5$4346d7a0$0201a8c0@lanparty>

I have an announcement list with 45,000 members, when I send an email not
only does it severely overload the server but it also gets blocked from
performing DNS lookups after the first few thousand lookups. 

It has been suggested that I set up a caching DNS server but that doesn't
look as easy as it sounds and I already am using bind so I would prefer just
tweaking that installation to do what I need if possible. Looking on the
internet it just isn't clear cut how to do this, especially in a way that
isn't going to mess with my current setup which is a typical Redhat Cpanel
setup hosting a fair amount of sites. 

What have other people done in this instance?

Dana




From cpz at tuunq.com  Thu Mar 30 07:21:16 2006
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 21:21:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Batch Processing
In-Reply-To: <011101c653b5$4346d7a0$0201a8c0@lanparty> from Dana Nevins at "Mar
	29, 2006 08:48:59 pm"
Message-ID: <20060330052116.0A7E67AE@mail.tuunq.com>

In a flurry of recycled electrons, Dana Nevins wrote:

> I have an announcement list with 45,000 members, when I send an email not
> only does it severely overload the server but it also gets blocked from
> performing DNS lookups after the first few thousand lookups. 

Which MTA are you using? You may want to let mailman send it all to the
MTA and have the MTA slow the delivery. Postfix has some rate controls
(http://www.postfix.org/rate.html), I assume that most of the other
MTAs do too.

Or, I may be nuts :-).

z!


From phelpsw at gmail.com  Thu Mar 30 07:57:35 2006
From: phelpsw at gmail.com (Phelps Williams)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 21:57:35 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 550 Recipient Address Rejected Error
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006032916390602187523ef00@msapiro>
References: <685b25860603291618teedce85ic869e586cb7ef1e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC17402006032916390602187523ef00@msapiro>
Message-ID: <685b25860603292157u552373a8yeb6ae8e8ea9df941@mail.gmail.com>

I continued to play with this and I came across the postfix-to-mailman
script.  The description of what this script provides fits my application
perfectly, serving as a postfix to mailman transport pipe.  Within the
script is a description of how to set it up, I followed this and after
restarting the runtimes involved I get the following error in
/var/log/mail.log right after I send the mailing list a message:

Mar 29 21:45:32 localhost postfix/trivial-rewrite[4633]: fatal: open
database /etc/postfix/transport.db: No such file or directory
Mar 29 21:45:33 localhost postfix/master[4613]: warning: process
/usr/lib/postfix/trivial-rewrite pid 4633 exit status 1
Mar 29 21:45:33 localhost postfix/master[4613]: warning:
/usr/lib/postfix/trivial-rewrite: bad command startup -- throttling


I believe it has to do with the configuration guidelines in
postfix-to-mailman which specify:

# /etc/postfix/main.cf:
#    relay_domains = ... lists.example.com
#    transport_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/transport
#    mailman_destination_recipient_limit = 1
#
# /etc/postfix/transport:
#   lists.example.com   mailman:

I created the /etc/postfix/transport file just for this purpose, as in it
was not in existence before.  As you might expect there is not a
/etc/postfix/transport.db file.  Is this generated a certain way.  Anybody
see what I am missing?  Thanks.

-Phelps



On 3/29/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
>
> Phelps Williams wrote:
> >
> >Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:
> >
> >        testlist at mydomain.com
> >
> >Technical details of permanent failure:
> >PERM_FAILURE: SMTP Error (state 9): 550 <testlist at mydomain.com>:
> Recipient
> >address rejected: User unknown in local recipient table
> >
> >I pulled my actual domain out of this error.  Oddly enough all messages
> >regarding subscribing etc work just fine.  Users simply cannot post
> >messages.  Any ideas?  Thanks.
>
> I don't know if this is it or not, but have you checked your aliases or
> whatever this MTA uses to deliver to Mailman. From your description,
> it seems as though maybe mail to the testlist-subscribe and
> testlist-owner works or maybe not depending on what you mean by "all
> messages regarding subscribing etc work just fine", but mail to
> testlist doesn't.
>
> See section 2) in
> <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.014.htp>.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>


From dana at dnevins.com  Thu Mar 30 10:31:15 2006
From: dana at dnevins.com (Dana Nevins)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 00:31:15 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Batch Processing
In-Reply-To: <20060330052116.0A7E67AE@mail.tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <012d01c653d4$4fd8ac90$0201a8c0@lanparty>

I am using the default Cpanel/exim configuration on redhat.

Dana



-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Zwanzig [mailto:cpz at tuunq.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:21 PM
To: Dana Nevins
Cc: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Batch Processing

In a flurry of recycled electrons, Dana Nevins wrote:

> I have an announcement list with 45,000 members, when I send an email 
> not only does it severely overload the server but it also gets blocked 
> from performing DNS lookups after the first few thousand lookups.

Which MTA are you using? You may want to let mailman send it all to the MTA
and have the MTA slow the delivery. Postfix has some rate controls
(http://www.postfix.org/rate.html), I assume that most of the other MTAs do
too.

Or, I may be nuts :-).

z!




From liam.friel at s3group.com  Thu Mar 30 10:22:03 2006
From: liam.friel at s3group.com (Liam Friel)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 09:22:03 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.5 and S/MIME
Message-ID: <003b01c653d3$0634db50$d43d78c1@dublin.ad.s3group.com>

Hi,

We've been using mailman for ages to manage lists from several of our sites: works fine, running 2.1.5

We are experimenting with S/MIME encryption of mail messages for several reasons.

A cursory experiment suggests the even with all content filtering turned off, mailman does not handle S/MIME encrypted
messages correctly.

1. Encrypted mails (smime.p7m attachments) arrive at their destination with the message body removed (ie subject only)
2. Signed mails (smime.p7s) arrive at their destination with the .p7s as an attachment

Now (2) above I guess may be more or less correct, since it is mailman who "sent" me the message and not the person who
signed it originally. However I don't understand (1) at all. Why did the encrypted S/MIME attachment just get dropped?

I have verified that both the signed and encrypted mails are correctly formed by mailing them direct to a recipient
rather then sending then via mailman.

I have had a quick look around on the web, but I didn't come across a definitive statement if/if not mailman supports
S/MIME encryption and signing of mails. 

Can someone clarify this for me, or point me at a link?

Ta
Liam



The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s).
Please direct any additional queries to: communications at s3group.com.
Thank You.


From friedemann at kossegg.de  Thu Mar 30 13:26:11 2006
From: friedemann at kossegg.de (Friedemann Schorer)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 13:26:11 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Run mailman non-permanently?
Message-ID: <53056.194.106.156.227.1143717971.squirrel@mail.kossegg.de>

Hi,
I'm running a Virtuozzo-based virtual Debian root-server (Sarge) which has
some limitations to trouble me a little - maybe you can help me a little?

The main problem for me is that there is a limited number of open files
allowed on that box, and mailman alone opens more than 600 altogether on
that box when started at system startup (according to 'lsof | grep -c
mailman')
Now that I turned mailman off the box runs smoothly, but I can't use the
lists anymore :(

I tried to search google on starting mailman on incoming mails for the
lists, e.g. via inetd, but to no success.

Do you have any ideas on a possible solution?


thx,


Friedemann




From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar 30 18:17:40 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 08:17:40 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Run mailman non-permanently?
In-Reply-To: <53056.194.106.156.227.1143717971.squirrel@mail.kossegg.de>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603300817400468d14370fc@msapiro>

Friedemann Schorer wrote:
>
>I tried to search google on starting mailman on incoming mails for the
>lists, e.g. via inetd, but to no success.
>
>Do you have any ideas on a possible solution?


It is not necessary for Mailman to be running in order to accept
incoming Mailman mail. It will be passed to the mail/mailman wrapper
and queued whether or not Mailman is actually running. So, depending
on how much delay you can tolerate, you might be able to set up a cron
to start mailman say every 10 minutes and another to stop it say 1
minute later. You may need to experiment with this to insure that
queues don't get backlogged, but it might work.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Mar 30 18:28:12 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 08:28:12 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bouncing a user repeatedly.
In-Reply-To: <1143757182.3181.8.camel@julius>
Message-ID: <PC174020060330082812032804a115d4@msapiro>

P.I.Julius wrote:

>On Wed, 2006-03-29 at 13:29 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote: 
>> P.I.Julius wrote:
>> >
>> >As you can see the bounce is sent out from fk-bounces at lists.hndomain.org
>> >to cva34.internetdsl.tpnet.pl at lists.hndomain.org but we don't have such an
>> >user on our server, so why do we get all this emails sent out? it happens
>> >every seconds, so it really uses a lot of cpu resources.
>> 
<snip>
>> 
>> Look at your Mailman logs 'post', 'smtp' and 'smtp-failure' and at the
>> contents of Mailman's qfiles/retry/ directory (queue) for clues.
>> 
>
>I don't have anything in the qfiles/retry, I don't even have a retry
>directory (/var/mailman/qfiles), but I took a look on the post, smtp,
>smtp-failure and there is a lot of failure messages:
>
>Mar 30 09:26:45 2006 (747) delivery to
>p43n152.172.63.ruraltel.net at lists.hndomain.org failed with code 450:
><p43n152.172.63.ruraltel.net at lists.hndomain.org>: User unknown in local
>recipient table
>Mar 30 09:26:46 2006 (747) delivery to
>p43n152.172.63.ruraltel.net at lists.hndomain.org failed with code 450:
><p43n152.172.63.ruraltel.net at lists.hndomain.org>: User unknown in local
>recipient table
>Mar 30 09:26:47 2006 (747) delivery to
>p43n152.172.63.ruraltel.net at lists.hndomain.org failed with code 450:
><p43n152.172.63.ruraltel.net at lists.hndomain.org>: User unknown in local
>recipient table
>
>and so on.
>
>As you can see now I have a different email, so I have no idea what it
>could be.


This is strange on a couple of counts. bout of the above email
addresses have local parts that look like domain names and domains
equal to yours.

This may say that Mailman is actually trying to send just to
cva34.internetdsl.tpnet.pl or p43n152.172.63.ruraltel.net. This may be
some loop involved in rejecting messages or some kind of 'denial of
service' attack on your server. You never mentioned messages incomming
to Mailman. Are there any?

If you look at the list's Privacy options generic_nonmember_action and
header_filter_rules actions if any, are these set to Reject? If so,
try changing them to Hold or Discard and see what happens (Hold will
give more information if this is the problem).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From mike114x at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 30 18:43:51 2006
From: mike114x at yahoo.com (michael mendoza)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 10:43:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman in debian,
	mailman don`t send the mails to users and admin, postfix work fine
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00603291522r677110dlf70f7919e7665f7d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060330164351.33551.qmail@web33512.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Muchas gracias, no habia caido en cuenta que tenia q
iniciar el mailman con:
> /etc/init.d/mailman start





 --- Patrick Bogen <pdbogen at gmail.com> escribi?:

> On 3/29/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> > michael mendoza wrote:
> > >
> > >Need I run a script o sometime like that to work
> > >mailman with with postfix or by default it work?
> >
> > You need to run the Mailman queue runners. I don't
> know if Debian has
> > it's own way of doing this by starting the Mailman
> service or
> > something like that. In Mailman installed from
> source this is done by
> Debian installs a script in /etc/init.d/mailman that
> will start
> everything up by running:
> 
> /etc/init.d/mailman start
> 
> as root. However, this only checks for the existence
> of the site list
> and then runs mailmanctl.
> 
> --
> - Patrick Bogen
> 


__________________________________________________
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ?gratis! 
Reg?strate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ 


From friedemann at kossegg.de  Thu Mar 30 20:53:08 2006
From: friedemann at kossegg.de (Friedemann Schorer)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:53:08 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Run mailman non-permanently?
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603300817400468d14370fc@msapiro>
References: <53056.194.106.156.227.1143717971.squirrel@mail.kossegg.de>
	<PC1740200603300817400468d14370fc@msapiro>
Message-ID: <25568.194.106.156.227.1143744788.squirrel@mail.kossegg.de>

Hi Mark,

> It is not necessary for Mailman to be running in order to accept
> incoming Mailman mail. It will be passed to the mail/mailman wrapper
> and queued whether or not Mailman is actually running. So, depending
> on how much delay you can tolerate, you might be able to set up a cron
> to start mailman say every 10 minutes and another to stop it say 1
> minute later. You may need to experiment with this to insure that
> queues don't get backlogged, but it might work.

Great, thanks four your advice. I don't think there'll be much trouble
with delays on a low traffic site :D


Best regards,


Friedemann




From john.durkin at gmail.com  Thu Mar 30 21:43:21 2006
From: john.durkin at gmail.com (John Durkin)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 11:43:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman and postfix - postfix works,
	but mailman doesn't
Message-ID: <78106ae30603301143v793deaddgd945a5d7c092a0f4@mail.gmail.com>

We have compiled and installed per the instructions mailman using
postfix as the MTA.  We can send mail fine using postfix command-line.
 Also, the first few times we would get errors in the maillog about
the gid.  We read up on that and have fixed it.  But - now when
mailman should be sending notifications, etc - it does not.  No errors
appear in the maillog either.  Our aliases seem fine.  I even tried
something else which produced interesting results...

Reading the aliases list, I tried this:

/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman owner johnlist

johnlist is a list i made successfully.  i can make lists, subscribe
people, etc. through the httpd interface to mailman and command-line.

so - anyway - the first time i ran the above command, i received on my
console the very same error we were getting in the beginning - about
how the mail wrapper was being run by an unexpected user (in the way
we are configured, it expects mailman to run it.)  So, I su to
mailman, run the command again like so:

/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman owner johnlist

and it behaves almost as if i were running commandline mail email at address.com

so i type "Test" and hit ctrl-D and it exits, no errors, etc.  But -
still I get no mail.

Any input welcome!!!

JD


From carconni at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 30 21:55:32 2006
From: carconni at earthlink.net (Carconni)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 14:55:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] create multiple lists resolved
Message-ID: <22859818.1143748532410.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Dear Mr. Shapiro,

I just wanted to let you know how I resolved it.  Thanks again for your help.

#!/bin/sh

        list=`cat $1`

        for user in $list
        do
                echo $user
                ./newlist -q $user user at eamiladdress.com password  
done

	

From: 	  msapiro at value.net
Subject: 	Re: [Mailman-Users] create multiple lists
Date: 	March 29, 2006 5:22:54 PM PST
To: 	  carconni at earthlink.net, mailman-users at python.org

Carconni wrote:

Were moving to mailman and I need to create over 250 "lists".  All the lists will have the same owner and and the same password.  Is there anyway to automate this?  I can set up a script to loop through a test file but how can I set the owner_mail = args[1] and listpasswd = args[2] to a default value?

See

bin/newlist --help

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From matt.singerman at gmail.com  Thu Mar 30 22:05:37 2006
From: matt.singerman at gmail.com (Matt Singerman)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 15:05:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Removing footer text?
Message-ID: <54682af50603301205ha359c6bh13ffc24cfebd523b@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

First off, I apologize for asking this, as I am sure it has been asked
scroews of times before.  However, I cannot seem to word search
phrases correctly to bring up the desired results.

All I would like to do is remove the footer text that Mailman adds on
to the end of all messages - the part that reads something like:

_______________________________________________
Test mailing list
Test at domain.org
http://list.domain.org/mailman/listinfo/test

Is there a way to do this?  I have direct server access, so I can get
in and modify files if necessary.

Thanks!


From kclair at gmail.com  Thu Mar 30 22:12:48 2006
From: kclair at gmail.com (kristina clair)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 12:12:48 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] permission problem saving attachments to
	archives
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603292048530921ac55204e@msapiro>
References: <dff375270603291148g64aa1662i75082e86ef655fd6@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1740200603292048530921ac55204e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <dff375270603301212n6bd9e8aeie464726bbb25891b@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/29/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> kristina clair
>
> >On 3/28/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> >
> >> (what
> >> does 'ls -lR /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments'
> >> show?)
> >
> ># ls -lR /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments
> >/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments:
> >total 0
>
>
> This is puzzling. Something is not right about this. Possibly the full
> traceback will contradict me, but I think that Scrubber is in it's
> save_attachment() function and is trying to lock the attachment
> directory
> (/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/
> in this case) in order to keep other processes out while it computes a
> unique file name to save the attachment. It is the lock.lock() call in
> Scrubber that trys to create
> /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/attachments.lock.server.com.23421.174.
> However, well before this, Scrubber has called its makedirs() function
> to create as necessary all the directories in
> /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/,
> and this apparently succeeded yet the directories 20060301/ and
> 20060301/cf7df1b6/ (and even the attachments/ directory initially)
> don't exist.
>
> Do these directories exist somewhere else?

I did a find for cf7df1b6 and didn't find it anywhere.

Here is the full traceback from the error log:

Mar 29 19:05:37 2006 (23421) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 13] Permission
denied: '/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1
b6/attachments.lock.sparks.serve.com.23421.369'
Mar 29 19:05:37 2006 (23421) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 111, in _oneloop
    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 167, in _onefile
    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130, in _dispose
    more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline)
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153, in _dopipeli
ne
    sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/ToDigest.py", line 91, in process
    send_digests(mlist, mboxfp)
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/ToDigest.py", line 132, in send_digests
    send_i18n_digests(mlist, mboxfp)
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/ToDigest.py", line 306, in send_i18n_di
gests
    msg = scrubber(mlist, msg)
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 227, in process
    url = save_attachment(mlist, part, dir, filter_html=False)
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 374, in save_attachm
ent
    lock.lock()
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 243, in lock
    self.__write()
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 422, in __write
    fp = open(self.__tmpfname, 'w')
IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/home/mailman/archives/private/members
hip/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/attachments.lock.sparks.serve.com.23421.369'

Mar 29 19:05:37 2006 (23421) SHUNTING: 1143677136.7960529+889704a08fe8f3c3bc33
625fc844ed14d4b14ca4


Thanks!
Kristina


From atann at gmx.net  Thu Mar 30 22:22:45 2006
From: atann at gmx.net (Andre Tann)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:22:45 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Removing footer text?
In-Reply-To: <54682af50603301205ha359c6bh13ffc24cfebd523b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54682af50603301205ha359c6bh13ffc24cfebd523b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200603302222.45409@inter.netz>

Matt Singerman, Donnerstag, 30. M?rz 2006 22:05: 

> All I would like to do is remove the footer text that Mailman
> adds on to the end of all messages

Write your list config into a file:

./config_list -o /tmp/listconfig yourlist

Edit this file, and find the parameter msg_footer.

Reimport the configuration with

./config_list -i /tmp/listconfig yourlist

-- 
Andre Tann



From tmz at pobox.com  Fri Mar 31 00:34:12 2006
From: tmz at pobox.com (Todd Zullinger)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 17:34:12 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Removing footer text?
In-Reply-To: <54682af50603301205ha359c6bh13ffc24cfebd523b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54682af50603301205ha359c6bh13ffc24cfebd523b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060330223412.GB11259@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Matt Singerman wrote:
> All I would like to do is remove the footer text that Mailman adds
> on to the end of all messages - the part that reads something like:

In addition to what Andre said, I believe you can get the same effect
via the web interface by deleting the text in the msg_footer and
digest_footer options, available on the Non-digest options and Digest
options pages, respectively.

(I don't have time to test this to confirm, so I'm going on memory.)

- -- 
Todd        OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xD654075A | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
======================================================================
To grasp the true meaning of socialism, imagine a world where
everything is designed by the post office, even the sleaze.
    -- P.J. O'Rourke

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: When crypto is outlawed bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.

iG0EARECAC0FAkQsXOQmGGh0dHA6Ly93d3cucG9ib3guY29tL350bXovcGdwL3Rt
ei5hc2MACgkQuv+09NZUB1oloACcCUwnf6Bgh9PT53H8VIi/y2zY/fAAn1j+txRf
ietk9AsKybsd9IyPn8tY
=WYoC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From kclair at gmail.com  Fri Mar 31 00:48:33 2006
From: kclair at gmail.com (kristina clair)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 14:48:33 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] permission problem saving attachments to
	archives
In-Reply-To: <dff375270603301212n6bd9e8aeie464726bbb25891b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dff375270603291148g64aa1662i75082e86ef655fd6@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1740200603292048530921ac55204e@msapiro>
	<dff375270603301212n6bd9e8aeie464726bbb25891b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dff375270603301448k415ffd41xaf44b3d7b45905c8@mail.gmail.com>

Oops!  I meant to mention in my last email that the "attachment" that
mailman is trying to save is the email which is in html format.  I'm
not sure if  that helps at all...

Kristina

On 3/30/06, kristina clair <kclair at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/29/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> > kristina clair
> >
> > >On 3/28/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >> (what
> > >> does 'ls -lR /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments'
> > >> show?)
> > >
> > ># ls -lR /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments
> > >/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments:
> > >total 0
> >
> >
> > This is puzzling. Something is not right about this. Possibly the full
> > traceback will contradict me, but I think that Scrubber is in it's
> > save_attachment() function and is trying to lock the attachment
> > directory
> > (/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/
> > in this case) in order to keep other processes out while it computes a
> > unique file name to save the attachment. It is the lock.lock() call in
> > Scrubber that trys to create
> > /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/attachments.lock.server.com.23421.174.
> > However, well before this, Scrubber has called its makedirs() function
> > to create as necessary all the directories in
> > /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/,
> > and this apparently succeeded yet the directories 20060301/ and
> > 20060301/cf7df1b6/ (and even the attachments/ directory initially)
> > don't exist.
> >
> > Do these directories exist somewhere else?
>
> I did a find for cf7df1b6 and didn't find it anywhere.
>
> Here is the full traceback from the error log:
>
> Mar 29 19:05:37 2006 (23421) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 13] Permission
> denied: '/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1
> b6/attachments.lock.sparks.serve.com.23421.369'
> Mar 29 19:05:37 2006 (23421) Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 111, in _oneloop
>     self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 167, in _onefile
>     keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 130, in _dispose
>     more = self._dopipeline(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline)
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Queue/IncomingRunner.py", line 153, in _dopipeli
> ne
>     sys.modules[modname].process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/ToDigest.py", line 91, in process
>     send_digests(mlist, mboxfp)
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/ToDigest.py", line 132, in send_digests
>     send_i18n_digests(mlist, mboxfp)
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/ToDigest.py", line 306, in send_i18n_di
> gests
>     msg = scrubber(mlist, msg)
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 227, in process
>     url = save_attachment(mlist, part, dir, filter_html=False)
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 374, in save_attachm
> ent
>     lock.lock()
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 243, in lock
>     self.__write()
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 422, in __write
>     fp = open(self.__tmpfname, 'w')
> IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/home/mailman/archives/private/members
> hip/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/attachments.lock.sparks.serve.com.23421.369'
>
> Mar 29 19:05:37 2006 (23421) SHUNTING: 1143677136.7960529+889704a08fe8f3c3bc33
> 625fc844ed14d4b14ca4
>
>
> Thanks!
> Kristina
>


--
"In most cases, people, even wicked people, are far more naive and
simple-hearted than one generally assumes.  And so are we."
/* last line, 1st ch., The Brothers Karamazov */


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Mar 31 00:51:52 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 14:51:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Removing footer text?
In-Reply-To: <20060330223412.GB11259@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
References: <54682af50603301205ha359c6bh13ffc24cfebd523b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060330223412.GB11259@psilocybe.teonanacatl.org>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060330145115.05fb7a88@crimson-dragon.com>

Todd Zullinger sent the message below at 14:34 3/30/2006:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Matt Singerman wrote:
> > All I would like to do is remove the footer text that Mailman adds
> > on to the end of all messages - the part that reads something like:
>
>In addition to what Andre said, I believe you can get the same effect
>via the web interface by deleting the text in the msg_footer and
>digest_footer options, available on the Non-digest options and Digest
>options pages, respectively.
>
>(I don't have time to test this to confirm, so I'm going on memory.)
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Your memory serves you right. This is indeed how you would do this 
via the web interface.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 31 01:49:14 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 15:49:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] permission problem saving attachments to
	archives
In-Reply-To: <dff375270603301212n6bd9e8aeie464726bbb25891b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC174020060330154914089065b9fde8@msapiro>

kristina clair wrote:

>On 3/29/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
>>
>> This is puzzling. Something is not right about this. Possibly the full
>> traceback will contradict me, but I think that Scrubber is in it's
>> save_attachment() function and is trying to lock the attachment
>> directory
>> (/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/
>> in this case) in order to keep other processes out while it computes a
>> unique file name to save the attachment. It is the lock.lock() call in
>> Scrubber that trys to create
>> /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/a=
>ttachments.lock.server.com.23421.174.


And the traceback confirms that the above is the actual scenario.


>> However, well before this, Scrubber has called its makedirs() function
>> to create as necessary all the directories in
>> /home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/,
>> and this apparently succeeded yet the directories 20060301/ and
>> 20060301/cf7df1b6/ (and even the attachments/ directory initially)
>> don't exist.
>>
>> Do these directories exist somewhere else?
>
>I did a find for cf7df1b6 and didn't find it anywhere.


How about 20060301? Although if you didn't find the other, you probably
won't find this either.


>Here is the full traceback from the error log:
>
<snip>
>  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 227, in process
>    url = save_attachment(mlist, part, dir, filter_html=False)


So here save_attachment() is called, and the first two lines thereof are

    fsdir = os.path.join(mlist.archive_dir(), dir)
    makedirs(fsdir)

where in this case, fsdir computes to be
'/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6'
and makedirs() calls the Python library os.makedirs() to create any
missing directories in the path with permissions 02775. The only
exception from this that is passed is 'directory exists'.

So somehow - don't ask me how - we get past this without having created
the directories.


>  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 374, in save_attachment
>    lock.lock()
>  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 243, in lock
>    self.__write()
>  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/LockFile.py", line 422, in __write
>    fp = open(self.__tmpfname, 'w')
>IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/attachments.lock.sparks.serve.com.23421.369'


Then we get this error when we try to create the lock file in the
non-existent directory. I'd expect the error to be 'No such file or
directory' rather than 'Permission denied'. Maybe that's another clue,
but if so, I don't know how to use it.

What happens if you try the following:

su mailman
python
>>> import os
>>> os.umask(002)
>>> os.makedirs('/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6', 02775)
>>> open('/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/xxx', 'w')



os.makedirs( ... 2775) is all one line as is
open( ... 'w')

Does this throw any exception? Does it create the missing directories?
(note, type control-D in response to a >>> prompt to exit Python)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 31 01:58:56 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 15:58:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] permission problem saving attachments toarchives
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060330154914089065b9fde8@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC17402006033015585607964d3c5d94@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>What happens if you try the following:
>
>su mailman
>python
>>>> import os
>>>> os.umask(002)
>>>> os.makedirs('/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6', 02775)
>>>> open('/home/mailman/archives/private/membership/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/xxx', 'w')
>
>
>
>os.makedirs( ... 2775) is all one line as is
>open( ... 'w')
>
>Does this throw any exception? Does it create the missing directories?
>(note, type control-D in response to a >>> prompt to exit Python)


And what happens if you try

su mailman
python
>>> import os
>>> os.umask(002)
>>> os.makedirs('/home/mailman/archives/private/xyz/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6', 02775)
>>> open('/home/mailman/archives/private/xyz/attachments/20060301/cf7df1b6/xxx', 'w')

where xyz is not a symlink?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 31 02:09:46 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 16:09:46 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman and postfix - postfix works,
	but mailman doesn't
In-Reply-To: <78106ae30603301143v793deaddgd945a5d7c092a0f4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006033016094609684d3c5e36@msapiro>

John Durkin wrote:
>
>/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman owner johnlist
>
>and it behaves almost as if i were running commandline mail email at address.com
>
>so i type "Test" and hit ctrl-D and it exits, no errors, etc.  But -
>still I get no mail.

It's not quite like 'mail'. It expects stdin to be a complete message
including all headers as well as the body.

So are these messages piling up in queue entries in qfiles/in? If so,
have you started mailman ('bin/mailmanctl start')?

See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.014.htp>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From aptgetd at gmail.com  Fri Mar 31 01:55:32 2006
From: aptgetd at gmail.com (noc ops)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 15:55:32 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem w/ alias
Message-ID: <442C6FF4.90506@gmail.com>

Hi,

I have around 32 aliases setup and they all are working fine with an
exception of one in particular which has around 140 users.

For some unknown reason sending mail to this alias, not everyone (140
users) on this list get messages. Few do and others don't?

Is there a way to check for corruption? What should I be looking for?
I'm kinda lost.


Any recommendation will be appreciated.


I'm running mailman v2.1.5-8 on debian (sarge).



regards,
/virendra




From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 31 04:24:52 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 18:24:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem w/ alias
In-Reply-To: <442C6FF4.90506@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006033018245202501cfcd98e@msapiro>

noc ops wrote:
>
>For some unknown reason sending mail to this alias, not everyone (140
>users) on this list get messages. Few do and others don't?
>
>Is there a way to check for corruption? What should I be looking for?
>I'm kinda lost.


Check Mailman's log files - particularly smtp, smtp-failure and bounce.

If the smtp log shows the post is sent to a smaller number than
expected, check the users settings in the membership list for 'nomail'
and maybe 'digest'. Also, are Topics defined for the list or were
Topics ever defined? This can cause members to not get all messages.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From admin at michiganwxsystem.com  Fri Mar 31 06:16:41 2006
From: admin at michiganwxsystem.com (MichiganWxSystem Administration)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 23:16:41 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive Scrubbing HTML
Message-ID: <003101c65479$ea0b1a50$6401a8c0@Jeffrey>

I have a list set up, that sends out HTML emails to my list subscribers.
But if you go to the archive page, the HTML is scrubbed and your actually viewing the 
email source code. Not the idea situation. I need the HTML to be preserved, not scrubbed.
I have played with the Archive features but no matter what is selected the HTML is scrubbed

What needs to be changed to display the archive in html 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey Lake K8JSL
admin at michiganwxsystem.com
H: 989-715-0759
C: 989-741-1405
MichiganWxSystem.com
WxChat.com
WxAlliance.com


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 31 07:56:08 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:56:08 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archive Scrubbing HTML
In-Reply-To: <003101c65479$ea0b1a50$6401a8c0@Jeffrey>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603302156080468e5691d1c@msapiro>

MichiganWxSystem Administration wrote:

>I have a list set up, that sends out HTML emails to my list subscribers.
>But if you go to the archive page, the HTML is scrubbed and your actually viewing the 
>email source code. Not the idea situation. I need the HTML to be preserved, not scrubbed.
>I have played with the Archive features but no matter what is selected the HTML is scrubbed
>
>What needs to be changed to display the archive in html 


Read the extensive documentation about the ARCHIVE_HTML_SANITIZER
setting in Defaults.py.

The closest you can come is to set ARCHIVE_HTML_SANITIZER = 3 in
mm_cfg.py, but be sure you read the notes about this setting in
Defaults.py before you decide to do this.

You can't get what you want which is inline (not scrubbed) HTML. You
can set ARCHIVE_HTML_SANITIZER = 2 to leave the HTML inline, but then
Pipermail escapes it so what you see is source like HTML rather than
rendered HTML.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From aptgetd at gmail.com  Fri Mar 31 08:18:56 2006
From: aptgetd at gmail.com (noc ops)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:18:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem w/ alias
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006033018245202501cfcd98e@msapiro>
References: <PC17402006033018245202501cfcd98e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <442CC9D0.60707@gmail.com>


Mark Sapiro wrote:
> noc ops wrote:
> 
>>For some unknown reason sending mail to this alias, not everyone (140
>>users) on this list get messages. Few do and others don't?
>>
>>Is there a way to check for corruption? What should I be looking for?
>>I'm kinda lost.
> 
> 
> 
> Check Mailman's log files - particularly smtp, smtp-failure and bounce.
----------------
I will check this in the morning and report back.

> 
> If the smtp log shows the post is sent to a smaller number than
> expected, check the users settings in the membership list for 'nomail'
> and maybe 'digest'. 
-----------------
Nope none of these are checked. I even subscribed/unsubscribed users
from this alias with no avail. How do you fix the corruption issue.


Also, are Topics defined for the list or were
> Topics ever defined? This can cause members to not get all messages.
-----------------
The topic filter is disabled.


What's interesting is, under 'Privacy Options'-->'Recipient filters' the
"Ceiling on acceptable number of recipients for a posting" was set to
10. So I've set this to 0 to see what happens.




regards,
/virendra

> 


From lasse at urk.dk  Fri Mar 31 12:14:50 2006
From: lasse at urk.dk (Lasse Jensen)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 12:14:50 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Creating my own confirm subscribe message
Message-ID: <20060331095222.833C4938117@smtp.webpartner.dk>

Hi all
 
I am new at using the Mailman and I am pretty impressed of all the
possibilities. One thing I cant figure out though, is how to make my own
"confirm subscribe"-message. I am sure its possible, but can't find out
where to edit the automatic generated message?
 
All help will be deeply appreciated. 
 
Best regards

Lasse Jensen

 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
Danish Red Cross Youth - Bragesgade 10, 2. sal
2200 K?benhavn N - Tlf. 35 37 25 55 -  <http://www.urk.dk/> www.urk.dk
 


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Mar 31 17:29:51 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:29:51 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Run mailman non-permanently?
In-Reply-To: <25568.194.106.156.227.1143744788.squirrel@mail.kossegg.de>
References: <53056.194.106.156.227.1143717971.squirrel@mail.kossegg.de>
	<PC1740200603300817400468d14370fc@msapiro>
	<25568.194.106.156.227.1143744788.squirrel@mail.kossegg.de>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603310729l4b8f9ee1id6a56b0f8e57c8ee@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/30/06, Friedemann Schorer <friedemann at kossegg.de> wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> > It is not necessary for Mailman to be running in order to accept
> > incoming Mailman mail. It will be passed to the mail/mailman wrapper
> > and queued whether or not Mailman is actually running. So, depending
> > on how much delay you can tolerate, you might be able to set up a cron
> > to start mailman say every 10 minutes and another to stop it say 1
> > minute later. You may need to experiment with this to insure that
> > queues don't get backlogged, but it might work.
It should be relatively trivial to check the status of the queues,
e.g. with some find magic. A wrapper script that (a) only runs mailman
if qfiles are present, and then (b) stops mailman some time after
there are no more qfiles might be a good way to accomplish this.

- Patrick Bogen


From tsnorthj at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 31 18:11:43 2006
From: tsnorthj at yahoo.com (ts North)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:11:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] UnicodeError in admindb interface
Message-ID: <20060331161143.19848.qmail@web53409.mail.yahoo.com>

I run several mailing lists under Mailman 2.1.6.   Recently 
 one of my mailing lists received 2 spam messages, I was able
 to delete one of them using the moderator admindb interface, but
 when I tried to delete the second message, I got the "hit a bug"
 page (traceback is listed below).
 
 At that point I: ran check_db and check_perms, restarted the daemon,
 cleared out the locks.  No luck.
 
 I found the heldmsg in data/ and deleted the message manually,
 which seems to have made matters worse.  Now when I access the 
 admindb web page for the mailing list, it throws the error right away before displaying the admindb page (same traceback as before).  
 
 I suspect I may have not deleted everything I need to delete.  I have
 considered upgrading to 2.1.7, but thought I should resolve this issue
 first.
 
 Any advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks,
 
 -Tom
 
 
 
 admin(24303): [----- Traceback ------] 
 admin(24303): Traceback (most recent call last):
 admin(24303):   File "/usr/local/mailman-2.1.6//scripts/driver", line 101, in 
 run_main
 admin(24303):     main()
 admin(24303):   File "/usr/local/mailman-2.1.6/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py", line 2
 34, in main
 admin(24303):     num += show_helds_overview(mlist, form)
 admin(24303):   File "/usr/local/mailman-2.1.6/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py", line 4
 85, in show_helds_overview
 admin(24303):     mlist.HandleRequest(id, mm_cfg.DISCARD)
 admin(24303):   File "/usr/local/mailman-2.1.6/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 167
 , in HandleRequest
 admin(24303):     forward, addr)
 admin(24303):   File "/usr/local/mailman-2.1.6/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 353
 , in __handlepost
 admin(24303):     syslog('vette', note)
 admin(24303):   File "/usr/local/mailman-2.1.6/Mailman/Logging/Syslog.py", lin
 e 40, in write
 admin(24303):     self.write_ex(kind, msg, args, kws)
 admin(24303):   File "/usr/local/mailman-2.1.6/Mailman/Logging/Syslog.py", lin
 e 58, in write_ex
 admin(24303):     logf.write(msg + '\n')
 admin(24303):   File "/usr/local/mailman-2.1.6/Mailman/Logging/StampedLogger.p
 y", line 73, in write
 admin(24303):     Logger.write(self, "%s %s" % (prefix, msg))
 admin(24303):   File "/usr/local/mailman-2.1.6/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", lin
 e 91, in write
 admin(24303):     f.write(msg)
 admin(24303): UnicodeError: ASCII encoding error: ordinal not in range(128)
 admin(24303): [----- Python Information -----] 
 admin(24303): sys.version     =   2.2.3 (#1, Mar  9 2006, 18:16:14) 
 [GCC 3.2.3 20030502 (Red Hat Linux 3.2.3-53)] 
 admin(24303): sys.executable  =   /usr/bin/python 
 admin(24303): sys.prefix      =   /usr 
 admin(24303): sys.exec_prefix =   /usr 
 admin(24303): sys.path        =   /usr 
 admin(24303): sys.platform    =   linux2 
 admin(24303): [----- Environment Variables -----] 
 

			
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 31 18:45:57 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:45:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Creating my own confirm subscribe message
In-Reply-To: <20060331095222.833C4938117@smtp.webpartner.dk>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603310845570890c4f7a293@msapiro>

Lasse Jensen wrote:
>
>I am new at using the Mailman and I am pretty impressed of all the
>possibilities. One thing I cant figure out though, is how to make my own
>"confirm subscribe"-message. I am sure its possible, but can't find out
>where to edit the automatic generated message?

See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.048.htp>.
The particular templates you want are subscribeack.txt and/or
verify.txt. Note that the subscribeack.txt template but not the
verify.txt template can be edited per list via the "Edit the public
HTML pages and text files" link on the admin web pages.

Also, on a different topic, you would do all of us who post to this
(mailman-users) list a favor if you would set your "Ikke til stede"
autoresponder to not respond to mail with a "Precedence: list" header,
or if you can't do that, disable delivery from this list before
turning on the autoresponder.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From aptgetd at gmail.com  Fri Mar 31 18:47:33 2006
From: aptgetd at gmail.com (noc ops)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:47:33 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem w/ alias
In-Reply-To: <442CC9D0.60707@gmail.com>
References: <PC17402006033018245202501cfcd98e@msapiro>
	<442CC9D0.60707@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <442D5D25.7000207@gmail.com>


noc ops wrote:
> Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
>>noc ops wrote:
>>
>>
>>>For some unknown reason sending mail to this alias, not everyone (140
>>>users) on this list get messages. Few do and others don't?
>>>
>>>Is there a way to check for corruption? What should I be looking for?
>>>I'm kinda lost.
>>
>>
>>
>>Check Mailman's log files - particularly smtp, smtp-failure and bounce.
> 
> ----------------
> I will check this in the morning and report back.
-------------
/var/log/mailman/smtp shows e-mails were delivered to all receipts
within the alias.

/var/log/smtp-failure and bounce is empty.


Is there anything that I'm may be overlooking?


regards,
/virendra


> 
> 
>>If the smtp log shows the post is sent to a smaller number than
>>expected, check the users settings in the membership list for 'nomail'
>>and maybe 'digest'. 
> 
> -----------------
> Nope none of these are checked. I even subscribed/unsubscribed users
> from this alias with no avail. How do you fix the corruption issue.
> 
> 
> Also, are Topics defined for the list or were
> 
>>Topics ever defined? This can cause members to not get all messages.
> 
> -----------------
> The topic filter is disabled.
> 
> 
> What's interesting is, under 'Privacy Options'-->'Recipient filters' the
> "Ceiling on acceptable number of recipients for a posting" was set to
> 10. So I've set this to 0 to see what happens.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> regards,
> /virendra
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/aptgetd%40gmail.com
> 
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
> 


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Mar 31 18:54:57 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 10:54:57 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem w/ alias
In-Reply-To: <442D5D25.7000207@gmail.com>
References: <PC17402006033018245202501cfcd98e@msapiro>
	<442CC9D0.60707@gmail.com> <442D5D25.7000207@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00603310854t7641c42ev9294864c9e4e9384@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/31/06, noc ops <aptgetd at gmail.com> wrote:
> /var/log/mailman/smtp shows e-mails were delivered to all receipts
> within the alias.
>
You should check your MTA logs at this point to see why the messages
weren't delivered. Mailman handed them off properly- or at least
reported that it did.

--
- Patrick Bogen


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 31 19:12:51 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:12:51 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem w/ alias
In-Reply-To: <442CC9D0.60707@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC174020060331091251043704326fa8@msapiro>

noc ops wrote:
>
>What's interesting is, under 'Privacy Options'-->'Recipient filters' the
>"Ceiling on acceptable number of recipients for a posting" was set to
>10. So I've set this to 0 to see what happens.

This has nothing to do with your issue. It is the number of explicit
addresses in To: and Cc: headers of the message *to* the list which
will cause the post to be held for moderator approval because of "too
many recipients".

As Patrick said in reply to your followup, you now need to look to your
MTA logs, but it is curious that your bounce log is empty. Is
bounce_processing set off for this list?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From matt at mail.netera.ca  Fri Mar 31 20:01:36 2006
From: matt at mail.netera.ca (Matthew Clarkson)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:01:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman and email harvesters
Message-ID: <442D6E80.8000005@mail.netera.ca>

We have switched half (about 15 so far) of our mailing lists from our 
majordomo server (with a hypermail based archiving system)  to our new 
mailman server.  I have just been notified by my boss that since the 
start of the switchover (3 weeks ago) he and a few other people have had 
a dramatic increase in spam based activity on their email accounts.  I 
checked to make sure my robots.txt on the webserver root was fine with 
the following entries

User-agent: *
Disallow: /pipermail/


Also, I verified that all my lists private_roster settings were set to 
List members.

Can anyone else think of, if it is mailman that is the culprit here, any 
settings or ways that email harvesters could grab email addresses from a 
mailman server?

--
Matthew Clarkson


From manlio_perillo at libero.it  Fri Mar 31 20:03:31 2006
From: manlio_perillo at libero.it (Manlio Perillo)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:03:31 -0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FAQ 6.9 on Debian Sarge
In-Reply-To: <4427A869.4010406@libero.it>
References: <4426C80D.9010508@libero.it> <4427A869.4010406@libero.it>
Message-ID: <442D6EF3.5060802@libero.it>

Manlio Perillo ha scritto:
> [...]

> Mailman explicitly set the umask to 002 but postalias ignore it.
> Moreover in the manual page it is stated that, without the -p option,
> postalias should inherit file permission from the input file.
> 

I was wrong, it only inherits read access permission.
However I got an useful solution from one of postfix developers,
LaMont Jones:

Code not tested

# Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py
def _update_maps():
  # ...
  acmd = mm_cfg.POSTFIX_ALIAS_CMD + ' ' + ALIASFILE + \
         '&& chmod g+w ' + ALIASFILE
  # ...




Regards  Manlio Perillo



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 31 20:51:50 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 10:51:50 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] UnicodeError in admindb interface
In-Reply-To: <20060331161143.19848.qmail@web53409.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006033110515000153386ba41@msapiro>

ts North wrote:

>I run several mailing lists under Mailman 2.1.6.   Recently 
> one of my mailing lists received 2 spam messages, I was able
> to delete one of them using the moderator admindb interface, but
> when I tried to delete the second message, I got the "hit a bug"
> page (traceback is listed below).
> 
> At that point I: ran check_db and check_perms, restarted the daemon,
> cleared out the locks.  No luck.


Restarting mailman shouldn't have been required. If you 'cleared locks'
you may now have multiple instances of the same qrunners running. This
needs to be addressed - see
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.068.htp>.


> I found the heldmsg in data/ and deleted the message manually,
> which seems to have made matters worse.  Now when I access the 
> admindb web page for the mailing list, it throws the error right away before displaying the admindb page (same traceback as before).  
> 
> I suspect I may have not deleted everything I need to delete.


That's right. You also need to delete the lists/listname/request.pck
that contains the request and points to the now non-existent heldmsg
file.

> I have
> considered upgrading to 2.1.7, but thought I should resolve this issue
> first.


I'm not sure if the underlying issue is fixed in 2.1.7 or not. At this
point, I would advise going to 2.1.8 (rc1 should be released this
weekend).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 31 21:05:40 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:05:40 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman and email harvesters
In-Reply-To: <442D6E80.8000005@mail.netera.ca>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603311105400953d7220181@msapiro>

Matthew Clarkson wrote:

>We have switched half (about 15 so far) of our mailing lists from our 
>majordomo server (with a hypermail based archiving system)  to our new 
>mailman server.  I have just been notified by my boss that since the 
>start of the switchover (3 weeks ago) he and a few other people have had 
>a dramatic increase in spam based activity on their email accounts.


Have they posted, or are they just members?


>I 
>checked to make sure my robots.txt on the webserver root was fine with 
>the following entries
>
>User-agent: *
>Disallow: /pipermail/


Do you really think any spambot is going to honor a robots.txt file?

If you have public archives, at a minimum you need

ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS = Yes

This is the default, but have you turned it off in mm_cfg.py? I'm not
sure how effective the obfuscation is, but it's probably better than
'in the clear' addresses.


>Also, I verified that all my lists private_roster settings were set to 
>List members.
>
>Can anyone else think of, if it is mailman that is the culprit here, any 
>settings or ways that email harvesters could grab email addresses from a 
>mailman server?


Can a spammer subscribe to your list and get the roster and then
unsubscribe? I don't know if spammers are sophisticated enough to do
this automatically, and I doubt they do it manually, but it is a
possibility unless subscription requires approval or the roster is
limited to admins.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dikim at osl.iu.edu  Fri Mar 31 08:29:37 2006
From: dikim at osl.iu.edu (DongInn Kim)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 01:29:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Turn off wraping a line
Message-ID: <442CCC51.2000901@osl.iu.edu>

Hi,

Is there a simple configuration to turn off the functionality of
wrapping a line in a mail?
I have mailman-2.1.6 installed on RHEL 4.
I apprecate your help in advance.

Regards,

-- DongInn


From matt at mail.netera.ca  Fri Mar 31 21:30:02 2006
From: matt at mail.netera.ca (Matthew Clarkson)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 12:30:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mailman and email harvesters
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200603311105400953d7220181@msapiro>
References: <PC1740200603311105400953d7220181@msapiro>
Message-ID: <442D833A.9080709@mail.netera.ca>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Matthew Clarkson wrote:
>
>   
>> We have switched half (about 15 so far) of our mailing lists from our 
>> majordomo server (with a hypermail based archiving system)  to our new 
>> mailman server.  I have just been notified by my boss that since the 
>> start of the switchover (3 weeks ago) he and a few other people have had 
>> a dramatic increase in spam based activity on their email accounts.
>>     
>
>
> Have they posted, or are they just members?
>
>   

They have all posted.

>> I 
>> checked to make sure my robots.txt on the webserver root was fine with 
>> the following entries
>>
>> User-agent: *
>> Disallow: /pipermail/
>>     
>
>
> Do you really think any spambot is going to honor a robots.txt file?
>
>   

I was aware that this is quite weak, but I knew that if I didn't mention 
it, it would have come up on the response to the initial email..

> If you have public archives, at a minimum you need
>
> ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS = Yes
>
> This is the default, but have you turned it off in mm_cfg.py? I'm not
> sure how effective the obfuscation is, but it's probably better than
> 'in the clear' addresses.
>
>   
This is set to obscure addresses (I have not changed any setting, either 
globally or list specific) to change this setting.
>> Also, I verified that all my lists private_roster settings were set to 
>> List members.
>>
>> Can anyone else think of, if it is mailman that is the culprit here, any 
>> settings or ways that email harvesters could grab email addresses from a 
>> mailman server?
>>     
>
>
> Can a spammer subscribe to your list and get the roster and then
> unsubscribe? I don't know if spammers are sophisticated enough to do
> this automatically, and I doubt they do it manually, but it is a
> possibility unless subscription requires approval or the roster is
> limited to admins.
>   
Yes, this could happen with most of our lists, but I would find it hard 
to believe (not that it is still not possible) that a spammer would 
spend his time on doing this for our relatively small (member wise) 
lists, especially as soon as we put our mailing lists up on mailman 
(less than a month ago),  this was the setting on our majordomo server 
for the last 3 years and we did not have this problem at all.

I mostly just wanted to verify with the original email I sent, that 
there wasn't a blatant setting I was overlooking which would lead to 
this.  I am thinking that it's not mailman, but probably another way 
that these harvesters are getting these email addresses.

Thank you very much for your insite and help into this Mark, I (and I'm 
sure many others) appreciate all the help you give this list.

--
Matthew Clarkson



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 31 21:28:42 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:28:42 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Turn off wraping a line
In-Reply-To: <442CCC51.2000901@osl.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1740200603311128420343996c4801@msapiro>

DongInn Kim wrote:
>
>Is there a simple configuration to turn off the functionality of
>wrapping a line in a mail?


If you're talking about 'header folding', then no, there is no option
to stop Mailman from doing this.

If you're talking about folding lines in the body of the message, I
don't know anywhere in Mailman where folding would be done except
maybe in content filtering html to plain text conversion. Folding is
more likely being done by the poster's MUA, the recipients MUA or if
the lines are really long by some MTA in the path to and from Mailman.
It's possible (I haven't looked into it) that Mailman folds really
long lines too. Note that by 'really long' I mean longer than the RFC
2821/2822 limit of 998 characters plus <CR LF>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From aptgetd at gmail.com  Fri Mar 31 21:40:36 2006
From: aptgetd at gmail.com (noc ops)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:40:36 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem w/ alias
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060331091251043704326fa8@msapiro>
References: <PC174020060331091251043704326fa8@msapiro>
Message-ID: <442D85B4.7000709@gmail.com>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> noc ops wrote:
> 
>>What's interesting is, under 'Privacy Options'-->'Recipient filters' the
>>"Ceiling on acceptable number of recipients for a posting" was set to
>>10. So I've set this to 0 to see what happens.
> 
> 
> This has nothing to do with your issue. It is the number of explicit
> addresses in To: and Cc: headers of the message *to* the list which
> will cause the post to be held for moderator approval because of "too
> many recipients".
-----------------
ok.

> 
> As Patrick said in reply to your followup, you now need to look to your
> MTA logs, but it is curious that your bounce log is empty. Is
> bounce_processing set off for this list?
-----------------
I'm trying to bypass my spam filter and go directly to my e-mail server
to see if it could be causing issues.

In order to bypass my MX record, I like to point my mailman directly to
to e-mail server's ip address (10.0.0.10). See below cust and paste.


Is this correct? Please advice.



etc/postfix/main.cf

myhostname = mailman.domain.com
alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases
##alias_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/aliases, hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases
alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases
##alias_database = hash:/etc/postfix/aliases
myorigin = /etc/mailname
mydestination = mailman.domain.com, localhost.domain.com, , localhost
relayhost =  10.0.0.10
mynetworks = 127.0.0.0/8
mailbox_command = procmail -a "$EXTENSION"
mailbox_size_limit = 0
recipient_delimiter = +
inet_interfaces = all


/etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py

#-------------------------------------------------------------
# Default domain for email addresses of newly created MLs
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = '10.0.0.10'
#-------------------------------------------------------------
# Default host for web interface of newly created MLs
DEFAULT_URL_HOST   = 'mailman.domain.com'
#-------------------------------------------------------------



regards,
/virendra


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 31 21:56:13 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:56:13 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem w/ alias
In-Reply-To: <442D85B4.7000709@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006033111561308907405f1a7@msapiro>

noc ops wrote:
>
>In order to bypass my MX record, I like to point my mailman directly to
>to e-mail server's ip address (10.0.0.10). See below cust and paste.
>
>
>Is this correct? Please advice.


I don't know about the postfix stuff


>/etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py
>
>#-------------------------------------------------------------
># Default domain for email addresses of newly created MLs
>DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = '10.0.0.10'


This is almost certainly wrong. This should be the domain that users
address their list mail to. Unless you actually want Mailman mail to
be addressed to e.g., listname at 10.0.0.10, you don't want this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From aptgetd at gmail.com  Fri Mar 31 22:30:43 2006
From: aptgetd at gmail.com (noc ops)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 12:30:43 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem w/ alias
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006033111561308907405f1a7@msapiro>
References: <PC17402006033111561308907405f1a7@msapiro>
Message-ID: <442D9173.3050605@gmail.com>


Mark Sapiro wrote:
> noc ops wrote:
> 
>>In order to bypass my MX record, I like to point my mailman directly to
>>to e-mail server's ip address (10.0.0.10). See below cust and paste.
>>
>>
>>Is this correct? Please advice.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about the postfix stuff
-----------------
no worries...I'll ping the list about postfix MX related question.


> 
> 
> 
>>/etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py
>>
>>#-------------------------------------------------------------
>># Default domain for email addresses of newly created MLs
>>DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = '10.0.0.10'
> 
> 
> 
> This is almost certainly wrong. This should be the domain that users
> address their list mail to. Unless you actually want Mailman mail to
> be addressed to e.g., listname at 10.0.0.10, you don't want this.
----------------
Yeah I figured this the minute I saw my /var/log/mail.log complaining
about illegal address systax as you indicated. I've changed it since then.



regards,
/virendra

> 


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Mar 31 23:17:42 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 13:17:42 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] 550 Recipient Address Rejected Error
In-Reply-To: <685b25860603292157u552373a8yeb6ae8e8ea9df941@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006033113174206872ba38199@msapiro>

Phelps Williams wrote:
>
>I created the /etc/postfix/transport file just for this purpose, as in it
>was not in existence before.  As you might expect there is not a
>/etc/postfix/transport.db file.  Is this generated a certain way.


You need to do the postfix command

postmap /etc/postfix/transport

in order to generate the /etc/postfix/transport.db file.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan