From jwblist3 at olympus.net  Tue Aug  1 00:35:54 2006
From: jwblist3 at olympus.net (John W. Baxter)
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 15:35:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need help for small non-profit
In-Reply-To: <20060731013214.GD16464@mitch.veggiechinese.net>
Message-ID: <C0F3D3DA.DE40%jwblist3@olympus.net>

On 7/30/06 6:32 PM, "William Yardley" <mailman at veggiechinese.net> wrote,
answering Marty Beilin:

> There are some third party providers who might do a good job for you
> (listbox comes to mind), or there are providers with free or discounted
> services for non-profits who provide Mailman.

Electric Embers is one such (although they may use something other than
Mailman for lists)
http://electricembers.net/

I know of one organization satisfied with their services (out of one I know
who has tried them).

  --John




From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug  1 00:56:52 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 15:56:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help with abusive user...
In-Reply-To: <44CE2A6E.2050102@cs.pdx.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1740200607311556520015ffe86243@msapiro>

Trent Fisher wrote:

>I have a big problem, and I am hoping someone here has some advice... I have a person on my mailing list who has been very abusive, but has recently taken a turn to the creepy (I would call it cyberstalking), and so I have been trying to eject him from the list.


Other responders have given good advice. I just want to address a few
technical issues.


<snip>

>Then I set new subscribers to be moderated by default.  Then after a pause of a week or so, he starts posting again.  But he cannot as only members may post to the list.  Looking at the email headers it is clear that he must be forging the email messages to look, to the casual observer, like they are going through the mailing list, but his messages lack the proper "Reply-To" and all the "List-*" headers... but he is somehow "on" the mailing list to be getting the messages to respond to.


Does your list have archives? If he is a member, even with delivery
disabled, he can visit archives, and if archives are public, anyone
can visit them.

Is your list roster available to anyone, list members, or only the
admin?


>So, I set all recent subscribers to "nomail", under the assumption one of them is him.  But his posts (that is, replys to mailing list messages) continue.  So he still has an address on the list, but I cannot figure out which one.
>
>Here's something weird: someone subscribed a week or so ago, but I cannot find them on the web interface.  I get both subscribe and unsubscribe notifications, so I know he didn't unsubscribe.  Could this guy be exploiting a bug?


Prior to Mailman 2.2 which isn't released yet, changes of address are
not logged, so he subscribed and then changed his address.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From spork at bway.net  Tue Aug  1 01:08:50 2006
From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:08:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicate messages from shunt queue
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0607311908400.12758@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

Hi all,

Recently I found a fairly huge amount of files in the shunt queue (around 
1500).  All I could gather from the error log is that most of them were from an 
old bug in parsing weird charsets and the later ones were due to the post and 
smtp-failur logfiles being owned by root.  So I fixed the perms (had already 
upgraded to 2.1.8 a month or so ago) and all was well.

Then I ran bin/unshunt.

Then people started complaining that they were getting a few hundred old 
messages. :)

What am I missing here?  From what I've been able to dig up on the list 
archives the qfiles/shunt directory should only contain messages that never 
made it out to any lists due to some error in config, perms or some bug in 
mailman itself.  But it's looking like these all did somehow make it through 
mailman previously and were sent a second time.  A few other tidbits:

-looking at some samples, msgids are the same, so it wasn't a user getting a 
rejection and then posting again

-the dupes DO NOT show up in the web archive

Any other info I can supply here?  Mailman 2.1.8, ruby 1.8.2, FreeBSD 4.7.

Thanks,

Charles

___
Charles Sprickman
NetEng/SysAdmin
Bway.net - New York's Best Internet - www.bway.net
spork at bway.net - 212.655.9344



From jimpop at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  1 01:32:01 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:32:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] collapse_alternatives
Message-ID: <44CE92F1.8040802@yahoo.com>

What exactly does collapse_alternatives do?

What is the recommended setting for collapse_alternatives?

Tia,

-Jim P.


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug  1 01:48:47 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 16:48:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicate messages from shunt queue
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0607311908400.12758@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200607311648470828c3d0432b@msapiro>

Charles Sprickman wrote:
>
>Then I ran bin/unshunt.
>
>Then people started complaining that they were getting a few hundred old 
>messages. :)


There are several possibilities here.

1) users are complaining that they received messages posted long ago in
threads long since dead, not necessarily that they previously received
the same message (message-id).

2) when the original didn't reach the list, the OP 'fixed' the problem
and reposted, thus the current message only appears to be a dupe.

3) if a message is shunted because SMTPDirect.py can't write the 'post'
log, it has already been sent, but OutgoingRunner.py doesn't know this
when it catches the exception and shunts the message. So those
messages which were shunted because of ownership/permission issues on
the 'post' log probably were duplicated when you ran unshunt



>What am I missing here?  From what I've been able to dig up on the list 
>archives the qfiles/shunt directory should only contain messages that never 
>made it out to any lists due to some error in config, perms or some bug in 
>mailman itself.


This is not always true, as in case 3) above. Thus, you have to use
judgement in unshunting.


>But it's looking like these all did somehow make it through 
>mailman previously and were sent a second time.  A few other tidbits:
>
>-looking at some samples, msgids are the same, so it wasn't a user getting a 
>rejection and then posting again


OK, so that rules out 2).


>-the dupes DO NOT show up in the web archive


Archiving is a separate process. Depending on where in processing the
error occurred, lots of possibilities ensue.

If the error occurs early in IncomingRunner, the post will be neither
archived nor delivered until the problem is fixed and the message is
unshunted.

In the case where the error occurs in delivery under OutgoingRunner,
the message will have been archived, and when unshunted will be
processed only by OutgoingRunner and not by ArchRunner, so no
duplicate archive entry results. But, in this case, it is possible
that some or all receipients received the original delivery and will
receive duplicates when the message is unshunted.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug  1 02:12:59 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 17:12:59 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] collapse_alternatives
In-Reply-To: <44CE92F1.8040802@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006073117125905934fba924c@msapiro>

Jim Popovitch wrote:

>What exactly does collapse_alternatives do?
>
>What is the recommended setting for collapse_alternatives?


collapse_alternatives was added in 2.1.7. The Defaults.py setting for
DEFAULT_COLLAPSE_ALTERNATIVES is Yes, which sets collapse_alternatives
to Yes for new and 'migrated' lists. I guess this makes 'Yes' the
'recommended' setting. This makes the behavior as in 2.1.6 and prior.

The 2.1.6/collapse_alternatives=Yes behavior is if filter_content is
Yes, "each multipart/alternative section will be replaced by just the
first alternative that is non-empty after filtering".

E.g. if the whole message is multipart/alternative with text/plain and
text/html subparts, even if both text/plain and text/html are accepted
MIME types, the resultant message will be 'collapsed' to just a
text/plain message containing the text/plain part and the text/html
part will be discarded.

This requires people who want to allow html on the list but filter some
other content to post html only and not multipart/alternative.

If collapse_alternatives=No, this replacement of "each
multipart/alternative section ... by just the first alternative that
is non-empty after filtering" is not done and all the alternatives
which aren't otherwise removed will remain as multipart/alternative
subparts in the final message.

Note that if you set collapse_alternatives=No, you almost certainly
also want to set convert_html_to_plaintext=No.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From paul at rubinsoftware.com  Tue Aug  1 12:09:02 2006
From: paul at rubinsoftware.com (Paul Rubin)
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 06:09:02 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange address
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006071512512405311d80f86b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <004101c6b552$83ed23a0$1000a8c0@intelp43200>

Hi,

Very quick question.

Do you know of any easy way to remove this e-mail address from a list:

wjdtnsdlr at hotmaiw@explido.de

I have tried remove_member and the web interface, but neither works:

[root at tbnonline /var/mailman]# bin/find_member  wjdtnsdlr
wjdtnsdlr at hotmail.com found in:
     brdcst-pc
     master
wjdtnsdlr at hotmaiw@explido.de found in:
     brdcst-pc
[root at tbnonline /var/mailman]# 

[root at tbnonline /var/mailman]# bin/remove_members --fromall -n -N
wjdtnsdlr at hotmaiw@explido.de                                
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "bin/remove_members", line 186, in ?
    main()
  File "bin/remove_members", line 176, in main
    admin_notif, userack)
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 1014, in
ApprovedDeleteMember
    self.removeMember(emailaddr)
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/OldStyleMemberships.py", line 220, in
removeMember
    self.__assertIsMember(member)
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/OldStyleMemberships.py", line 113, in
__assertIsMember
    raise Errors.NotAMemberError, member
Mailman.Errors.NotAMemberError: wjdtnsdlr at hotmaiw
[root at tbnonline /var/mailman]# 

Thanks.



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug  1 14:29:58 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 05:29:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Where do I find mm_cfg.py
In-Reply-To: <54213.24.147.51.102.1154269979.squirrel@www.jimstudebaker.org>
Message-ID: <PC1740200608010529580000b70963fa@msapiro>

troubleshooter at jimstudebaker.org wrote:

>I wish to filter the emails to a mail list owner by doing the following:
>
>insert the line:
>OWNER_PIPELINE.insert(1, 'SpamAssassin')
>in mm_cfg.py.


If you are going to do that, you must have a SpamAssassin.py handler
and it needs to be installed in Mailman/Handlers/ - mm_cfg.py is
normally in the same Mailman/ directory as the Handlers/ subdirectory,
but


>I am using fedora core linux server system.


In older RedHat Systems, the Mailman directory was
/var/mailman/Mailman. More recently, RedHat has moved things according
to the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard (FHS) and the Mailman directory
is /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman. I think that mm_cfg.py is
/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py and there is a symlink to that at
/etc/mailman/mm_cfg/py. See
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2004-October/017343.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From ajai at bway.net  Tue Aug  1 16:41:57 2006
From: ajai at bway.net (A. Khattri)
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:41:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting subscriber bits from command line
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.58.0608011041110.20834@ida.bway.net>


Is there a command-line tool for setting/unsetting the various subscriber
flags?



-- 
A


From shane at tekhed.com  Tue Aug  1 17:37:33 2006
From: shane at tekhed.com (Shane Harsch)
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 11:37:33 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Extending Mailman - Contant Parser / Substituter
Message-ID: <44CF753D.2020701@tekhed.com>

I want to write a script that looks for a particularly formatted string
in the body of a message, process it, and then replace that string with
the appropriate output. Is there a standard method for doing this, and
if so where?

Thanks.


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug  1 18:34:18 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:34:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Setting subscriber bits from command line
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSO.4.58.0608011041110.20834@ida.bway.net>
Message-ID: <PC1740200608010934180453772d2597@msapiro>

A. Khattri wrote:
>
>Is there a command-line tool for setting/unsetting the various subscriber
>flags?


Only bin/withlist. For example, in withlist, one could do something like

from Mailman import mm_cfg
m.getMemberOption('user at example.com', mm_cfg.AcknowledgePosts)
m.setMemberOption('user at example.com', mm_cfg.AcknowledgePosts, True)

See mm_cfg.py/Defaults.py and MemberAdaptor.py/OldStyleMemberships.py
for more detail.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug  1 19:32:15 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:32:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] [Fwd: Formatting Questions]
In-Reply-To: <44CF8293.1080605@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1740200608011032150171a83f5eda@msapiro>

Jewel wrote:

>I can't seem to send the following message to the Mailman listserv.
>Please help.

<snip>

>The message's content type was not explicitly allowed


You are sending an HTML post which is not accepted by content
filtering. Send either plain text or multipart/alternative with a
text/plain alternative.


>I am having trouble formatting a signature on the welcome message. Are
>there any formatting tips someone can advise me on? I am going into
>General Options and into the welcome message. I want the signature to
>look like this:
>
>
>
>Jewel Makda
>
>Student Computer Services Coordinator
>
>Washburn University School of Law Library
>
>1700 SW College Ave. Topeka, KS 66621
>
>
>
>but it instead looks like this for example:
>
>
>
>Jewel Makda Student Computer Services Corrdinator Washburn University
>
>School of Law Library 1700 SW College Ave. Topeka, KS 66621


>From the (Details for welcome_msg) link.

Note that this text will be wrapped, according to the following rules:

    * Each paragraph is filled so that no line is longer than 70
characters.
    * Any line that begins with whitespace is not filled.
    * A blank line separates paragraphs.

So, if you really have blank lines in between each line as above, I
don't know why it is wrapped in the final result, but if not, you can
eather put blank lines in between each line or precede each line with
a single blank space to prevent filling and wrapping.


>Also, when I try to edit the html pages I get the following error:
>
>We're sorry, we hit a bug!
>Please inform the webmaster for this site of this
>problem. Printing of traceback and other system information has been
>explicitly inhibited, but the webmaster can find this information in
>the
>Mailman error logs.

And what is in Mailman's error log?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From walt at udel.edu  Tue Aug  1 19:11:29 2006
From: walt at udel.edu (Walt Dabell)
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 13:11:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing text in Hold.py
In-Reply-To: <C9F4FE51E4DB3B4EBCA6B115331EB72305480866@MAILBOXTWO.home.ku.edu>
References: <C9F4FE51E4DB3B4EBCA6B115331EB72305480866@MAILBOXTWO.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <1154452289.1573.23.camel@nomad.bartol.udel.edu>

All,

I was trying to change the default admin message sent to 
people who were trying to post to the list, who the list 
didn't think were subscribed. A _LOT_ of people these 
days are subscribing with one address, then trying to post 
from another. They get real bent when the only message
(from a lazy admin) they get when they try to post from
the wrong address is:

Non-members are not allowed to post messages to this list.

I wanted to change the default to:

Non-members are not allowed to post messages to this list.
If you are already a member, PLEASE remember to post from
your subscribed address.

To do so, I modified /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py
then did

$ python
>>> import py_compile
>>> py_compile.compile('Hold.py')

Now nothing gets held for approval... That I can tell. 
I tried copying back a same version Hold.pyc from another 
machine and it still doesn't work. 

Any helpful ideas please?

-- 
Walt Dabell  -  302-831-1499  -  walt at udel.edu
 Physics & Astronomy - University of Delaware



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Aug  1 20:30:43 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:30:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing text in Hold.py
In-Reply-To: <1154452289.1573.23.camel@nomad.bartol.udel.edu>
References: <C9F4FE51E4DB3B4EBCA6B115331EB72305480866@MAILBOXTWO.home.ku.edu>
	<1154452289.1573.23.camel@nomad.bartol.udel.edu>
Message-ID: <p06200702c0f54dee94c2@[10.0.1.213]>

At 1:11 PM -0400 2006-08-01, Walt Dabell wrote:

>  To do so, I modified /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py
>  then did
>
>  $ python
>>>>  import py_compile
>>>>  py_compile.compile('Hold.py')

You don't need to re-compile it.  Python will reload and recompile on 
the fly, as necessary.  You might want to stop and restart Mailman, 
however.

>  Any helpful ideas please?

Have you seen anything in the logs?  Maybe your edit messed up 
something else, and it's not obvious to you what happened?

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From walt at udel.edu  Tue Aug  1 21:18:26 2006
From: walt at udel.edu (Walt Dabell)
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 15:18:26 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing text in Hold.py
In-Reply-To: <p06200702c0f54dee94c2@[10.0.1.213]>
References: <C9F4FE51E4DB3B4EBCA6B115331EB72305480866@MAILBOXTWO.home.ku.edu>
	<1154452289.1573.23.camel@nomad.bartol.udel.edu>
	<p06200702c0f54dee94c2@[10.0.1.213]>
Message-ID: <1154459906.1573.41.camel@nomad.bartol.udel.edu>

On Tue, 2006-08-01 at 13:30 -0500, Brad Knowles wrote:
> At 1:11 PM -0400 2006-08-01, Walt Dabell wrote:
> 
> >  To do so, I modified /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py
> >  then did
> >
> >  $ python
> >>>>  import py_compile
> >>>>  py_compile.compile('Hold.py')
> 
> You don't need to re-compile it.  Python will reload and recompile on 
> the fly, as necessary.  You might want to stop and restart Mailman, 
> however.

Ah HA! I thought it was easier that the way I was doing it...

> >  Any helpful ideas please?
> 
> Have you seen anything in the logs?  Maybe your edit messed up 
> something else, and it's not obvious to you what happened?

Nothing in the logs... 

I tried your suggestion, modifying the text in Hold.py and 
restarting Mailman. Still no messages making it to the
"Tend to pending moderator requests"

I even changed it back and the moderator requests still
aren't working. Sure saves a lot of work, but I'm wondering
what's happening to the non-accepted email... 

-- 
Walt Dabell  -  302-831-1499  -  walt at udel.edu
 Physics & Astronomy - University of Delaware



From spork at bway.net  Tue Aug  1 22:27:57 2006
From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 16:27:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] duplicate messages from shunt queue
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200607311648470828c3d0432b@msapiro>
References: <PC1740200607311648470828c3d0432b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0608011625580.7442@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> There are several possibilities here.
>
> 3) if a message is shunted because SMTPDirect.py can't write the 'post'
> log, it has already been sent, but OutgoingRunner.py doesn't know this
> when it catches the exception and shunts the message. So those
> messages which were shunted because of ownership/permission issues on
> the 'post' log probably were duplicated when you ran unshunt

I think that solves the mystery then.

>> What am I missing here?  From what I've been able to dig up on the list
>> archives the qfiles/shunt directory should only contain messages that never
>> made it out to any lists due to some error in config, perms or some bug in
>> mailman itself.
>
> This is not always true, as in case 3) above. Thus, you have to use
> judgement in unshunting.

Will do.  Also set up an snmp monitoring process to watch the shunt queue 
and let me know when things are piling up so I can investigate.

> In the case where the error occurs in delivery under OutgoingRunner,
> the message will have been archived, and when unshunted will be
> processed only by OutgoingRunner and not by ArchRunner, so no
> duplicate archive entry results. But, in this case, it is possible
> that some or all receipients received the original delivery and will
> receive duplicates when the message is unshunted.

Excellent info.  I put a question regarding this in the FAQ, so now I'll 
answer it.

Thanks for the insight Mark, very much appreciated.

Charles


> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>


From walt at udel.edu  Tue Aug  1 22:48:46 2006
From: walt at udel.edu (Walt Dabell)
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 16:48:46 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing text in Hold.py
In-Reply-To: <1154459906.1573.41.camel@nomad.bartol.udel.edu>
References: <C9F4FE51E4DB3B4EBCA6B115331EB72305480866@MAILBOXTWO.home.ku.edu>
	<1154452289.1573.23.camel@nomad.bartol.udel.edu>
	<p06200702c0f54dee94c2@[10.0.1.213]>
	<1154459906.1573.41.camel@nomad.bartol.udel.edu>
Message-ID: <1154465326.1573.74.camel@nomad.bartol.udel.edu>

On Tue, 2006-08-01 at 15:18 -0400, Walt Dabell wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-08-01 at 13:30 -0500, Brad Knowles wrote:
[...]
> I tried your suggestion, modifying the text in Hold.py and 
> restarting Mailman. Still no messages making it to the
> "Tend to pending moderator requests"
> 
> I even changed it back and the moderator requests still
> aren't working. Sure saves a lot of work, but I'm wondering
> what's happening to the non-accepted email... 

Problem solved. One of the other admins got tired of answering
all of the hold-for-admin messages and clicked the

"Action to take for postings from non-members for which no 
explicit action is defined." to "reject"...

ARG!!!

Makes things difficult to debug when you have that kind of help.

BTW, The edited Hold.py works fine now. Thanks for your help!
-- 
Walt Dabell  -  302-831-1499  -  walt at udel.edu
 Physics & Astronomy - University of Delaware



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug  1 22:57:41 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:57:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing text in Hold.py
In-Reply-To: <1154452289.1573.23.camel@nomad.bartol.udel.edu>
Message-ID: <PC17402006080113574106710b9140c8@msapiro>

Walt Dabell wrote:
>
>I was trying to change the default admin message sent to 
>people who were trying to post to the list, who the list 
>didn't think were subscribed. A _LOT_ of people these 
>days are subscribing with one address, then trying to post 
>from another. They get real bent when the only message
>(from a lazy admin) they get when they try to post from
>the wrong address is:
>
>Non-members are not allowed to post messages to this list.
>
>I wanted to change the default to:
>
>Non-members are not allowed to post messages to this list.
>If you are already a member, PLEASE remember to post from
>your subscribed address.



If your Mailman is 2.1.6 or later, you do this with
nonmember_rejection_notice in the admin/privacy GUI.


>To do so, I modified /usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py
>then did
>
>$ python
>>>> import py_compile
>>>> py_compile.compile('Hold.py')
>
>Now nothing gets held for approval... That I can tell. 
>I tried copying back a same version Hold.pyc from another 
>machine and it still doesn't work. 


As Brad pointed out, you don't need to recompile. Python does this as
needed, but you do need to do

bin/mailmanctl restart

after any mm_cfg.py or Handler module changes (and other changes that
affect the queue runners) too.

Now, you may have a modified Hold.py that's newer than Hold.pyc, so
Python will ignore the Hold.pyc and recompile Hold.py so the thing to
do is restore the original Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py, remove
Mailman/Handlers/Hold.pyc and then do the restart as above.

If this doesn't restore things to the way they were, you'll need to
look at other things that might have changed.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug  1 23:53:20 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:53:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange address
In-Reply-To: <004101c6b552$83ed23a0$1000a8c0@intelp43200>
Message-ID: <PC1740200608011453200109f0e88c81@msapiro>

Paul Rubin wrote:
>
>Do you know of any easy way to remove this e-mail address from a list:
>
>wjdtnsdlr at hotmaiw@explido.de
>
>I have tried remove_member and the web interface, but neither works:


Apparently I inadvertently responded to this off list. For the record,
I wrote to the effect that I would try in the following order

1) check 'unsub' in the admin membership list and 'Submit Your Changes'

2) See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.013.htp>
and try the withlist removeMember method, and finally

3) try the withlist del m.members or del m.digest_members method.

The OP wrote back to me that "it worked" - he didn't say which of the
three methods worked.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From justbrits at comcast.net  Wed Aug  2 00:21:37 2006
From: justbrits at comcast.net (JB@comcast)
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 17:21:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing text in Hold.py
References: <C9F4FE51E4DB3B4EBCA6B115331EB72305480866@MAILBOXTWO.home.ku.edu>
	<1154452289.1573.23.camel@nomad.bartol.udel.edu>
Message-ID: <002c01c6b5b8$db356f80$6701a8c0@actualshop>

Hi Walt!!

<<...A _LOT_ of people these 
days are subscribing with one address, then trying to post 
from another. They get real bent when the only message...>>

I've HAD the same prob on a couple of my Lists.  I don't have shell access, SO I modified the "welcome" messages Can't quote as quite adult<G>) starting with:

************************************************
KEEP THESE INSTRUCTIONS because I will NOT answer your dumb questions of how to un-sub or re-sub!!  And if you wish to use 2 or more address inorder to send mail to the List, SUBSCRIBE them.
************************************************

Seems to have been working OK for several months now<VBG>!!!

Regards.........

Ed
Webmaster & Owner
www.justbrits.com


From secretary at healheadingley.org.uk  Tue Aug  1 21:35:54 2006
From: secretary at healheadingley.org.uk (Heal Secretary)
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 20:35:54 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] message body is blank for some users
In-Reply-To: <p06200702c0a3b35d3b94@[192.168.1.65]>
References: <7.0.0.16.0.20060531193536.01df19e8@healheadingley.org.uk>
	<p06200702c0a3b35d3b94@[192.168.1.65]>
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060801202652.020b7e20@healheadingley.org.uk>

Dear Brad, Mark, Dragon and others

Further to this problem.... (some user's mailings to the list are 
sent to the list with a blank body), I have taken your advice.......

At 21:58 31/5/06, you wrote:
>Check your settings.  Have the user send you a message directly, 
>then use whatever techniques your MUA allows you to have to see all 
>the messy headers and MIME body structure.  If you don't have an MUA 
>that lets you see all that, you'll need to get an MUA that will.

The direct message from my user, Jonathan, is copied below. Can 
anyone see why Jonathan's mailings would be sent to the list with a blank body?

Many thanks for any advice, and please word your reply for a biffo
Nigel

*************************************************************
 From ???@??? Sun May 07 11:28:46 2006
Return-path: <Jonathan's email address>
Envelope-to: secretary at healheadingley.org.uk
Delivery-date: Sat, 06 May 2006 21:35:55 +0100
Received: from hopeful9 by colo16.ukhost4u.com with local-bsmtp (Exim 4.52)
         id 1FcTVJ-0006H7-Tt
         for secretary at healheadingley.org.uk; Sat, 06 May 2006 21:35:55 +0100
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1 (2006-03-10) on colo16.ukhost4u.com
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE,
         MIME_HTML_ONLY,MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER autolearn=ham version=3.1.1
Received: from [65.54.168.37] (helo=hotmail.com)
         by colo16.ukhost4u.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52)
         id 1FcTVJ-0006H1-Gk
         for secretary at healheadingley.org.uk; Sat, 06 May 2006 21:35:53 +0100
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC;
          Sat, 6 May 2006 13:36:01 -0700
Message-ID: <BAY113-F2775CB9724C4ED7D753A17D2AA0 at phx.gbl>
Received: from 65.54.168.200 by by113fd.bay113.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP;
         Sat, 06 May 2006 20:35:58 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [62.252.224.13]
X-Originating-Email: [Jonathan's email address]
X-Sender: Jonathan's email address
From: "Jonathan" <Jonathan's email address>
To: secretary at healheadingley.org.uk
Bcc:
Subject: Re: Blank replies
Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 20:35:58 +0000
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 May 2006 20:36:01.0070 (UTC) 
FILETIME=[AFFD3CE0:01C6714C]


<x-html>
<html><div style='background-color:'><P><BR><BR></P>
<DIV class=RTE>
<P>Hi Nigel, </P>
<P>Re Sent my reply email a few mins ago and&nbsp;it's blank again!! 
Shame, as its a good one!</P>
<P>The Bcc I sent to myself was fine, so it seems to be something 
wrong at your end.</P>
<P>Below is a copy of the the email text I am trying to send!!</P>
<P>Regards</P>
<P>Jonathan</P>
<P>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P>
<DIV>
<P>Value of Cost?<BR><BR>Could this (proposed?!) car park development 
in an inner city urban green space, seemingly either to help car 
travelers to park in someone else's back-yard and/or to raise income 
for a Department of the Council, and certainly in contradiction of 
any Sustainable Development Policy that the Council is apparently 
signed up to, be summed up as the councilors concerned knowing the 
cost of everything and the value of nothing, or maybe&nbsp;I have 
missed something here?</P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>Alan, in response to your email; there is trust in 
people, trust in community involvement, trust in councilors&nbsp;and 
trust in local government and trust in the need to defend the 
environment against all the vagaries of human decision making systems. </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>There always seems to be a hidden interest 
(unintentionally, overt or not) trying to bulldozing through what 
community, green space and local environments we have left! It seems 
to be part of 20th Century's man and woman governance that we need to 
stop!</DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>Perhaps we could suggest that the Leeds Millennium 
Square be turned into a tarmac car park and deny its view and space 
to public use?. That would look lovely! And they want to do this to 
our open park spaces in the inner city! Back off! </DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>Regards&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>Jonathan</DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5 2px 
solid"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif">
<HR color=#a0c6e5 SIZE=1>

<DIV></DIV>From:&nbsp;&nbsp;<I>Rich T 
&lt;followfoucault at gmail.com&gt;</I><BR>Reply-To:&nbsp;&nbsp;<I>for 
local activists 
&lt;activists at healheadingley.org.uk&gt;</I><BR>To:&nbsp;&nbsp;<I>a.slomson at leeds.ac.uk,for 
local activists &lt;activists at healheadingley.org.uk&gt;,William 
McKinnon 
&lt;mackius at mac.com&gt;</I><BR>CC:&nbsp;&nbsp;<I>justchill at tiscali.co.uk, 
isobelsidebottom at hotmail.com,barrie.payne1 at virgin.net, 
activists at healheadingley.org.uk,Christine Bethlehem 
&lt;chris.bethlehem at ntlworld.com&gt;</I><BR>Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;<I>Re: 
[activists] Woodhouse Moor Car Park Proposal - Oliver Cross 
article</I><BR>Date:&nbsp;&nbsp;<I>Fri, 05 May 2006 11:18:26 
+0100</I><BR>&gt;Alan, you're absolutely right - and this point has 
been raised<BR>&gt;frequently at Headingley 
Forum.&nbsp;&nbsp;Unfortunately, despite the coverage<BR>&gt;of our 
area by bottom-up groups, the Council remains committed
to<BR>&gt;top-down - and often, not even that.&nbsp;&nbsp;Richard 
T<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;At 08:12 05/05/2006, Alan Slomson wrote:<BR>&gt; 
&gt;This story, the story of the Headingley Run last Sunday, and the 
problems with<BR>&gt; &gt;Headingley Stadium have a common feature: 
inadequate consultation of local<BR>&gt; &gt;people by the Council. 
This seems to me to be a systematic failure which needs<BR>&gt; 
&gt;to be addressed over and above concerns about particular 
cases.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Councillors are busy people, often 
doing full time jobs on top of<BR>&gt; &gt;Council work,<BR>&gt; 
&gt;so the problem needs to be dealt with at the level of Council 
officers.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Given that in the area there are a 
number of well established community groups<BR>&gt; &gt;with fairly 
well defined spheres of interest, and that electronic<BR>&gt; 
&gt;communication<BR>&gt; &gt;is now so
easy, it should not be difficult to develop a system where 
community<BR>&gt; &gt;groups get frequent advance notice of matters 
that might be of<BR>&gt; &gt;concern to them.<BR>&gt; &gt;Once such a 
system has been established, it should not take too much effort 
to<BR>&gt; &gt;operate. But, perhaps more importantly, both Council 
officials and Councillors<BR>&gt; &gt;need to be firmly committed to 
this sort of early consultation, and<BR>&gt; &gt;that has to<BR>&gt; 
&gt;be a real will to implement it.<BR>&gt; &gt;--<BR>&gt; &gt;Alan 
Slomson<BR>&gt; &gt;20 Grosvenor Park Gardens<BR>&gt; 
&gt;Leeds<BR>&gt; &gt;LS6 2PL<BR>&gt; &gt;e-mail: 
a.slomson at leeds.ac.uk<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Quoting 
William McKinnon &lt;mackius at mac.com&gt; on Fri 05 May 2006 07:06:29 
BST:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Dear Friends of Woodhouse 
Moor<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Oliver Cross had a
very interesting article in last Friday's YEP about the<BR>&gt; &gt; 
&gt; proposed car park.&nbsp;&nbsp;In case you didn't see it, I've 
attached it to this<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; email.<BR>&gt; &gt; 
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Regards.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
Bill McKinnon<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; 225 2700<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; 
&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
PS.&nbsp;&nbsp;Mr Cross was one of those who attended last Thursday's 
drop-in.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; 
&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;_______________________________________________<BR>&gt;--<BR>&gt;activists 
mailing 
list<BR>&gt;activists at healheadingley.org.uk<BR>&gt;http://mail.healheadingley.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/activists_healheadingley.org.uk<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><BR><BR>&nbsp;</P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: 
#a0c6e5 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; 
FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif">
<HR color=#a0c6e5 SIZE=1>

<DIV></DIV>From:&nbsp;&nbsp;<I>Heal Secretary 
&lt;secretary at healheadingley.org.uk&gt;</I><BR>To:&nbsp;&nbsp;<I>"Jonathan" 
&lt;Jonathan's email address&gt;</I><BR>Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;<I>Re: 
Blank replies</I><BR>Date:&nbsp;&nbsp;<I>Sat, 06 May 2006 20:32:35 
+0100</I><BR>&gt;Hi Jonathan<BR>&gt;Thanks for letting me know about 
this.<BR>&gt;I've just got back from holiday (Why does something odd 
always have <BR>&gt;to happen when I'm away!)<BR>&gt;I've no idea 
what this is, but I'll look into it. It may take me a <BR>&gt;bit of 
tinkering to diagnose the problem.<BR>&gt;I see what you mean about 
the blank email - I got it too.<BR>&gt;Can you please re-send your 
message, to the Activists? Please let me <BR>&gt;know if it works 
this time.<BR>&gt;Many thanks<BR>&gt;Nigel<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;At 
14:26 5/5/06, you 
wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Hi,<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;am I being gaged or is
something wrong technically?. When I sent a <BR>&gt;&gt;reply to the 
acitivist list today ( Re: [activists] Woodhouse Moor <BR>&gt;&gt;Car 
Park Proposal) the email&nbsp;&nbsp;reply was blank. Is it something 
with <BR>&gt;&gt;Richard T's email??<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;On the 
blank email was a subscribtion link, which I have tried and 
<BR>&gt;&gt;I since gor an email saying that an attempt was made to 
subscribe ( <BR>&gt;&gt;it was me!!)<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Please 
help as I want to 
contribute.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Thanks<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;Jonathan<BR>&gt;&gt;07906 
973 370<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Secretary of Heal<BR>&gt;Campaigning for a 
Sustainable Balanced 
Community<BR>&gt;www.healheadingley.org.uk<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;If you want 
to post items of interest to Headingley residents, use <BR>&gt;the 
Message Board on the web site<BR>&gt;<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></div></html>




</x-html>
********************************************************************



Secretary of Heal Headingley
Campaigning for a Sustainable Balanced Community
www.healheadingley.org.uk  



From msapiro at value.net  Wed Aug  2 02:22:40 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 17:22:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] message body is blank for some users
In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.0.20060801202652.020b7e20@healheadingley.org.uk>
Message-ID: <PC1740200608011722400937bffb37b1@msapiro>

Heal Secretary wrote:
>
>The direct message from my user, Jonathan, is copied below. Can 
>anyone see why Jonathan's mailings would be sent to the list with a blank body?
<snip>
>From: "Jonathan" <Jonathan's email address>
>To: secretary at healheadingley.org.uk
>Bcc:
>Subject: Re: Blank replies
>Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 20:35:58 +0000
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/html; format=flowed
<snip>

The message is a single HTML part.

What are the Content Filtering settings for your list?

I am guessing that you accept text/html and that
convert_html_to_plaintext is Yes. If this is the case, I further
suspect that there is some problem with html to plaintext conversion
in your Mailman installation.

If this is the case, since this is a hosted cPanel installation, you
don't have access to the things you need to diagnose this further.

You could try turning off convert_html_to_plaintext if it is on and
then I think the body would go through, but as HTML, not plain text.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan




From msapiro at value.net  Wed Aug  2 02:38:01 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 17:38:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] message body is blank for some users
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200608011722400937bffb37b1@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC1740200608011738010625b58f3092@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>The message is a single HTML part.
>
>What are the Content Filtering settings for your list?
>
>I am guessing that you accept text/html and that
>convert_html_to_plaintext is Yes. If this is the case, I further
>suspect that there is some problem with html to plaintext conversion
>in your Mailman installation.
>
>If this is the case, since this is a hosted cPanel installation, you
>don't have access to the things you need to diagnose this further.
>
>You could try turning off convert_html_to_plaintext if it is on and
>then I think the body would go through, but as HTML, not plain text.


I see from your archived post at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-June/051404.html>
that you say you turnd off convert_html_to_plaintext. If it was off
when this post came through with a blank body, then I don't know
what's happening.

What are all your Content filtering settings?

What do the headers of the post from the list with a blank body look
like?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From drew.tenenholz at isid.org  Wed Aug  2 02:47:20 2006
From: drew.tenenholz at isid.org (Drew Tenenholz)
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 20:47:20 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Adjusting Digest Settings
Message-ID: <v0422080bc0f5a3d0796a@[192.168.209.100]>

Folks --

I thought I understood the digest settings, but...

I am currently serving up just one list with mailman, and it is set 
for both English and Russian language localization.  The posts are in 
Russian/Cyrillic.  This is working, but I am having trouble with the 
digests.  I think the relevant settings are:

mailman version 2.1.4 (yes, the original one packaged with Mac OS 
10.3 Server [aka Panther Server] )
digestable=yes
digest_size_threshold=150 (kb)
digest_send_periodic=yes

So, I expect a daily digest if there are any posts, and multiple 
digests on a single day if there are a lot of posts.  But, I received 
no digests for three days, even when there were posts.

The original size threshold was only 30 kb, which was producing 
multiple daily digests.  I think this is due to the fact that the 
archiving of Russian posts is actually storing each glyph as a 
separate HTML entity code (e.g. $#85114;&#85111; etc.) which really 
eats up space quickly.  So, I changed the size up to 5x30 since I had 
received up to four digests in a single day.  Then, no digests went 
out.  I have changed the setting to 60kb, but would appreciate any 
insight into the correct settings.

Drew Tenenholz


From msapiro at value.net  Wed Aug  2 03:22:30 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 18:22:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Adjusting Digest Settings
In-Reply-To: <v0422080bc0f5a3d0796a@[192.168.209.100]>
Message-ID: <PC1740200608011822300171b58f2ee9@msapiro>

Drew Tenenholz wrote:
>
>mailman version 2.1.4 (yes, the original one packaged with Mac OS 
>10.3 Server [aka Panther Server] )
>digestable=yes
>digest_size_threshold=150 (kb)
>digest_send_periodic=yes
>
>So, I expect a daily digest if there are any posts, and multiple 
>digests on a single day if there are a lot of posts.  But, I received 
>no digests for three days, even when there were posts.


I think you understand the settings.

The periodic, 'daily' digest depends on cron/senddigests. Do you have a
crontab for Mailman that runs this and other jobs? Is crond running on
your server?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From denis at cfg.etecsa.cu  Wed Aug  2 14:56:33 2006
From: denis at cfg.etecsa.cu (Denis Morejon)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 08:56:33 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] About multiple admin users in mailman
Message-ID: <003701c6b633$14fdea10$910aa8c0@cfg.tel.etecsa.cu>

Can anyone tell me if there is a way by which I could define different administration levels. So that it could be easy to delegate some roles, differents from the ones that a moderator has, to different users?
I mean, to concede  roles between administrator and moderator to different users?

From msapiro at value.net  Wed Aug  2 15:55:20 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 06:55:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] About multiple admin users in mailman
In-Reply-To: <003701c6b633$14fdea10$910aa8c0@cfg.tel.etecsa.cu>
Message-ID: <PC1740200608020655200921373b704d@msapiro>

Denis Morejon wrote:

>Can anyone tell me if there is a way by which I could define different administration levels. So that it could be easy to delegate some roles, differents from the ones that a moderator has, to different users?
>I mean, to concede  roles between administrator and moderator to different users?


No. Standard Mailman has only 'moderator' and 'administrator' roles.
Who can do what is determined by knowledge of the respective password.

There have been discussions of 'intermediate' roles in the past on this
list. I don't recall if anyone implemented anything. See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.018.htp>
for search info.

Note that you can restrict which pages in the admin interface an admin
can see by redefining the ADMIN_CATEGORIES list in mm_cfg.py (see the
definition in Defaults.py). You can remove any pages from this list
and they won't appear in the GUI except that the 'general' page is the
default so it will always appear even if removed from the
ADMIN_CATEGORIES list. Also note however that this is a global
setting, and if you use it, there is no 'super-admin' role that has
access to all pages.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From lenny at aecom.yu.edu  Wed Aug  2 19:25:44 2006
From: lenny at aecom.yu.edu (Lenny Shovsky)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 13:25:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list owner signature
Message-ID: <46602.129.98.4.95.1154539544.squirrel@netmail.aecom.yu.edu>

How can I change the value in the signature of list messages
from mailman-owner at globalhost, to mailman-owner at specific-listowner ?

thank you



From robertj at linux4free.com  Wed Aug  2 20:53:24 2006
From: robertj at linux4free.com (Rob Jackson)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:53:24 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Move addresses from To: to Cc:
Message-ID: <200608021853.k72IrIsm030704@resources.rootsweb.com>

I want to be able to make all addresses that are put into the To: field when
a message is sent to the list into the Cc: field, so that when someone
replies to this particular message, all the other addresses do not get
replied to.  I want to make it so they need to use Reply to All in order to
do this.  Is there a setting for this, or will I need to modify code?
 
-Rob
 


From day7pettersens at gmail.com  Thu Aug  3 01:32:25 2006
From: day7pettersens at gmail.com (Craig Pettersen)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 18:32:25 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman causing strange slowdown in SMTP
Message-ID: <6e6f44850608021632g42ad59c6we128bab76caf8439@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
  I have a mailman installation running on our qmail server that is involved
in a slowdown in SMTP for the designated SMTPHOST in mm_cfg.py.  I first
noticed that the messages for the list go out very slowly...about 15 seconds
per message.  I saw this in the mailman smtp log, and then I saw it in the
the qmail smtp log as well, so I figured it was a problem with qmail.  As I
looked through the qmail logs, I saw that all messages that connected to
smtp via 127.0.0.1 were slow, averaging more than 15 seconds, while those
that connected from somewhere else were all a fraction of a second.  I
discovered that if I changed SMTPHOST to our public IP in mm_cfg.py, any
messages (from the list or elsewhere) using it would slow down as well, and
any messages connecting via 127.0.0.1 returned to normal speed.  If I shut
down mailman using mailmanctl stop, speed was normal for both localhost or
the public IP, whichever had been used as mailman's SMTPHOST at the time
returning to mormal speed.  That verified that mailman is directly involved
in the slowdown in smtp.  If I telnet to the smtp and manually send a
message, the hangup point is after entering 'data' - ie:

helo test.com
250 ok
mail from: test.com
250 ok
rcpt to: <a valid email>
250 ok
data                      <-------after entering 'data' there is a 15
second + wait if mailman is running
354 ok
etc...



 What could be causing this problem?
This mailman installation serves only one list, an announcement only list,
of about 35,000 members, with over 10,000 disabled due to bounces that send
once every 2 weeks or so. It invariably sends
several hundred to a thousand messages individually at the +/-15sec./message
rate, then a big bulk mailing to most subscribers that's taking about 3000
seconds for around 23,000, then a few score more of individual messages
before it stops functioning.  Using ps aux, one can see that all the
qrunners are there and appear normal, but bin/mailmanctl must be used to
stop and start things to get them going again.
  So my questions are...does anyone have any idea what mailman could be
doing to interfere with smtp on its SMTPHOST and how to fix it? and does
anyone have any idea why mailman stops working shortly after sending out the
big list?

Thanks,
  Craig Pettersen


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug  3 02:24:41 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 17:24:41 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman causing strange slowdown in SMTP
In-Reply-To: <6e6f44850608021632g42ad59c6we128bab76caf8439@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006080217244101711bac0ed4@msapiro>

Craig Pettersen wrote:

>This mailman installation serves only one list, an announcement only list,
>of about 35,000 members, with over 10,000 disabled due to bounces that send
>once every 2 weeks or so. It invariably sends
>several hundred to a thousand messages individually at the +/-15sec./message
>rate, then a big bulk mailing to most subscribers that's taking about 3000
>seconds for around 23,000, then a few score more of individual messages
>before it stops functioning.


What exactly is in Mailman's smtp and smtp-failure logs (the
'individual' messages are not the post).


>Using ps aux, one can see that all the
>qrunners are there and appear normal, but bin/mailmanctl must be used to
>stop and start things to get them going again.


When things are not going, what is the contents of the queues
(subdirectories of the qfiles/ directory)?


>  So my questions are...does anyone have any idea what mailman could be
>doing to interfere with smtp on its SMTPHOST and how to fix it? and does
>anyone have any idea why mailman stops working shortly after sending out the
>big list?


What are your various mm_cfg.py settings if any for the VERP settings
and for SMTP_MAX_RCPTS and SMTP_MAX_SESSIONS_PER_CONNECTION.

You might try

SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 10
SMTP_MAX_SESSIONS_PER_CONNECTION = 1

To see if that makes a difference.

If you restart both Mailman and qmail, does the first subsequent
Mailman SMTP session exhibit the 15 second delay?

Have you seen
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.011.htp>?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug  3 03:16:25 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 18:16:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Move addresses from To: to Cc:
In-Reply-To: <200608021853.k72IrIsm030704@resources.rootsweb.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006080218162506401bac1099@msapiro>

Rob Jackson wrote:

>I want to be able to make all addresses that are put into the To: field when
>a message is sent to the list into the Cc: field, so that when someone
>replies to this particular message, all the other addresses do not get
>replied to.  I want to make it so they need to use Reply to All in order to
>do this.  Is there a setting for this, or will I need to modify code?


Two things:

To answer your question, there is no setting. Doing this will require
code modification.

But, I don't think what you are trying to do will help. I think every
MUA of which I am aware sends a 'reply' to only the Reply-To: or From:
address with Reply-To: taking precedence over From: if Reply-To: is
present. Only 'reply all' replies to addresses in To: or Cc:, so
moving addresses fron To: to Cc: will not affect who gets a 'reply' or
a 'reply all' except to the extent that it may affect whether they are
addressed in To: or Cc: in the 'reply all'.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug  3 03:41:54 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 18:41:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list owner signature
In-Reply-To: <46602.129.98.4.95.1154539544.squirrel@netmail.aecom.yu.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1740200608021841540859ba496731@msapiro>

Lenny Shovsky wrote:

>How can I change the value in the signature of list messages
>from mailman-owner at globalhost, to mailman-owner at specific-listowner ?


I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you talking about the footer
appended to list posts and digests? If so, see the web admin
interface, Non-digest Options->msg_footer and Digest
options->digest_footer.

If this is not your question, please try to be more specific.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dandrews at visi.com  Thu Aug  3 08:55:13 2006
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 01:55:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: HTML filter on the lists
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060803015445.0398d338@visi.com>

I got the below message from a user, and am not quite sure what to do?  Any advice?

Dave


>Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 00:30:29 -0600
>From: "T. Joseph Carter" <tjcarter at bluecherry.net>
>To: David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>
>Subject: HTML filter on the lists
>
>The filter you are using on text/html messages to the list really is very,
>very broken.  First, it leaves parts of the HTML behind.  Second, it lies
>about its output, claiming that all messages are now us-ascii (which
>breaks character set conversion tools which need to know the original
>character set in order to map to the correct one.)
>
>The situation as it exists now is that you have almost everyone on the
>list using Microsoft Outhous--er, I mean Outlook, which renders plain text
>us-ascii messages as HTML in Windows-Latin-1 encoding.
>
>My native character set is not Windows-Latin-1, it's UTF-8.  This requires
>conversion, and the conversion tools assume that because your filter says
>the message is us-ascii, it actually is.  I am also one of the about three
>people on the lists whose email does not support HTML natively.  I have
>fixed that with a mail filter, but it only works if the message is
>actually HTML.
>
>Essentially, the three people for whom your mail filter still serves a
>purpose are having to deal with HTML emails we can't read precisely
>because your filter doesn't actually do what it says it does.
>
>My thought on this is to switch to a filter that simply defangs HTML
>without stripping it, or replacing the existing filter with some suitable
>lynx command line.  My filter:
>
>LANG=en.UTF-8 lynx -dump -localhost -stdin -dont-wrap-pre -minimal
>
>You might want to use en.iso8859-1 instead for LANG, since just about
>everyone on the list speaks a Latin-1 language natively and Outlook does
>know how to convert that to a Windows character set rather easily.  Just
>make sure that when the output is stuffed back into MIME format the
>charset is set to match the output.
>
>
>I tried to write something to correct this--if I take an affected message,
>correct the MIME headers so mutt knows it's HTML and what charset it
>really is, mutt does properly extract the message.  The problem is that
>there is no automated way to determine which messages are mangled, and any
>filter would be forced to make as many assumptions about what the filter
>broke as as the filter made in breaking it.  An Eastern-European poster's
>messages would be garbled beyond recovery.  The proper solution is to not
>break the messages.  *smile*
>
>
>__________ NOD32 1.1689 (20060802) Information __________
>
>This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
>http://www.eset.com



From xfm at ukr.net  Thu Aug  3 11:19:00 2006
From: xfm at ukr.net (MfFm)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 02:19:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] No Bounces At All
Message-ID: <5629248.post@talk.nabble.com>


Please, help finding out 
if my message bounces were not generated at all 
or them lost anywhere else!!!
I do not receive any udelivery notification!

great thanx...
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/No-Bounces-At-All-tf2044550.html#a5629248
Sent from the Mailman - Users forum at Nabble.com.



From ldb at freestandards.org  Thu Aug  3 13:16:16 2006
From: ldb at freestandards.org (Lawrence Bowie)
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 07:16:16 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] To: Field is not what it it suppose to be
Message-ID: <44D1DB00.6040307@freestandards.org>

OK .. I am just now noticing this on my lists.
The To: field on all my lists have

	mylist at example.org

instead of

	mylist at lists.example.org

Although, I am sending it to lists.example.org.

Is this a postfix or a mailman configuration issue?

Thanks,

LDB



From lenny at aecom.yu.edu  Thu Aug  3 13:42:23 2006
From: lenny at aecom.yu.edu (Lenny Shovsky)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 07:42:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list owner signature
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200608021841540859ba496731@msapiro>
References: <46602.129.98.4.95.1154539544.squirrel@netmail.aecom.yu.edu>   
	<PC1740200608021841540859ba496731@msapiro>
Message-ID: <62868.216.254.116.226.1154605343.squirrel@netmail.aecom.yu.edu>

Every list on our list server has mailman-owner@ address as the contact in
the footer, I would like that to be list-owner@ instead ( list-owner being
the name of the each particular list ), so when list subscribers click on
it, they get to contact the list owner.

the footer looks like this.

"If you have questions, problems, comments, etc, send them to
mailman-owner at lists.aecom.yu.edu  Thanks!"


> Lenny Shovsky wrote:
>
>>How can I change the value in the signature of list messages
>>from mailman-owner at globalhost, to mailman-owner at specific-listowner ?
>
>
> I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you talking about the footer
appended to list posts and digests? If so, see the web admin
> interface, Non-digest Options->msg_footer and Digest
> options->digest_footer.
>
> If this is not your question, please try to be more specific.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers, San
Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>






From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug  3 15:34:38 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 06:34:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] list owner signature
In-Reply-To: <62868.216.254.116.226.1154605343.squirrel@netmail.aecom.yu.edu>
Message-ID: <PC17402006080306343806718a98e485@msapiro>

Lenny Shovsky wrote:

>Every list on our list server has mailman-owner@ address as the contact in
>the footer, I would like that to be list-owner@ instead ( list-owner being
>the name of the each particular list ), so when list subscribers click on
>it, they get to contact the list owner.
>
>the footer looks like this.
>
>"If you have questions, problems, comments, etc, send them to
>mailman-owner at lists.aecom.yu.edu  Thanks!"


You still haven't told me where you are seeing this footer, but I will
continue to assume it is on the bottom of posts and digests as sent to
list members from Mailman.

As I said,


>> I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you talking about the footer
>appended to list posts and digests? If so, see the web admin
>> interface, Non-digest Options->msg_footer and Digest
>> options->digest_footer.


To be more specific, assuming what you put above is the exact footer
that you want on both messages and digests, put the following 4 lines
in mm_cfg.py perhaps replacing any settings for DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER and
DEFAULT_DIGEST_FOOTER that are already there (watch out for a wrapped
line)

DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER = """If you have questions, problems, comments, etc,
send them to
%(list_name)s-owner@%(host_name)s  Thanks!
"""
DEFAULT_DIGEST_FOOTER = DEFAULT_MSG_FOOTER

This will set the default for new lists. For existing lists, you can
edit each list manually through the web admin pages mentioned above,
or you can do the following to set the footers for all lists.

Put the following 6 lines in a file (again watch for wrapped lines).

msg_footer = """If you have questions, problems, comments, etc, send
them to
%(list_name)s-owner@%(host_name)s  Thanks!
"""
digest_footer = """If you have questions, problems, comments, etc, send
them to
%(list_name)s-owner@%(host_name)s  Thanks!
"""

Then cd to the Mailman installation directory and run the following
shell script

#!/bin/sh
for list in `bin/list_lists --bare`
do bin/config_list -i path/to/above/file $list
done

If you want something different from the exact footer above, you can
edit it accordingly. Go to the list admin Non-digest options page and
follow the (Details for msg_footer) link for information on the
various %(xxx)s substitutions you can use.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug  3 16:12:20 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 07:12:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: HTML filter on the lists
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060803015445.0398d338@visi.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200608030712200890050cb8ce@msapiro>

David Andrews wrote:

>I got the below message from a user, and am not quite sure what to do?  Any advice?
>
>>Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 00:30:29 -0600
>>From: "T. Joseph Carter" <tjcarter at bluecherry.net>
>>To: David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>
>>Subject: HTML filter on the lists
>>
>>The filter you are using on text/html messages to the list really is very,
>>very broken.  First, it leaves parts of the HTML behind.  Second, it lies
>>about its output, claiming that all messages are now us-ascii (which
>>breaks character set conversion tools which need to know the original
>>character set in order to map to the correct one.)


Presumably the issue here is the conversion done by Content filtering
-> convert_html_to_plaintext. The simplest solution is just to set
this to 'No' and allow the HTML to go to the list unchanged, but you
may not want to allow 'non-defanged' HTML or any HTML at all on your
list.

Another solution is to remove text/html from the MIME types allowed on
your list and thus force your members to post plain text or at least
multipart/alternative. See <http://www.expita.com/nomime.html>.

If you want to continue to convert HTML to plaintext, there are a few
issues. You don't say what Mailman version this is, but from your
user's complaint, it seems it is pre-2.1.7. In versions prior to
2.1.7, HTML that was quoted-printable or base64 encoded was not
decoded prior to passing to HTML_TO_PLAIN_TEXT_COMMAND which caused
many problems. If this is the issue, you need to upgrade. Beyond that,
the default for HTML_TO_PLAIN_TEXT_COMMAND is '/usr/bin/lynx -dump
%(filename)s'. This may not be appropriate. Redefining this in
mm_cfg.py to the command suggested by your user may or may not be a
solution because of the way Mailman/Handlers/MimeDel.py resets the
converted payload

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug  3 16:14:12 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 07:14:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] No Bounces At All
In-Reply-To: <5629248.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200608030714120265c3cd3ad5@msapiro>

MfFm wrote:
>
>Please, help finding out 
>if my message bounces were not generated at all 
>or them lost anywhere else!!!
>I do not receive any udelivery notification!


Is bounce_processing set to Yes for the list? What's in Mailman's
bounce log?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug  3 17:32:07 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 08:32:07 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Extending Mailman - Contant Parser / Substituter
In-Reply-To: <44CF753D.2020701@tekhed.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200608030832070250af9b2961@msapiro>

Shane Harsch wrote:

>I want to write a script that looks for a particularly formatted string
>in the body of a message, process it, and then replace that string with
>the appropriate output. Is there a standard method for doing this, and
>if so where?


The closest thing to a standard method would I think be a custom
handler. See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.067.htp>.

As far as the actual manipulation, you'd need to use the message
methods get_payload() and set_payload(). See
<http://docs.python.org/lib/module-email.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug  3 20:41:04 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 11:41:04 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] To: Field is not what it it suppose to be
In-Reply-To: <44D1DB00.6040307@freestandards.org>
Message-ID: <PC174020060803114104054686c9e406@msapiro>

Lawrence Bowie wrote:

>OK .. I am just now noticing this on my lists.
>The To: field on all my lists have
>
>	mylist at example.org
>
>instead of
>
>	mylist at lists.example.org
>
>Although, I am sending it to lists.example.org.
>
>Is this a postfix or a mailman configuration issue?


Assuming you are talking about individual messages and not digests, I
don't think Mailman does anything with To: headers except in the case
of full personalization.

This is probably some canonicalization going on in an MTA because of
CNAME DNS records.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Thu Aug  3 21:01:09 2006
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 14:01:09 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving archives
Message-ID: <44D247F5.2040908@washburn.edu>

Is is cumbersome or possible to move archives from a listserv running on 
L-Soft into Mailman.  I just took over an existing list and created it 
on Mailman.  There are archives from the old list I would like to import 
into Mailman.  I am running Mailman 2.1.7.  I cannot find anything in 
the listserv archives on this nor on google.  If anyone can send me any 
links or information that would help.

Thanks,

-- 
J




From billhowect at gmail.com  Thu Aug  3 21:35:48 2006
From: billhowect at gmail.com (Bill Howe)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 15:35:48 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] delete or edit message in archives?
Message-ID: <d7c555be0608031235n2323a4aatf0d3c0dd37a8e801@mail.gmail.com>

Is there a way to edit a portion of a message on the archive? a subscriber
accidently included some language she would like vedited out.

-- 

Bill Howe
www.billhowe.org


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Thu Aug  3 22:11:40 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 13:11:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving archives
In-Reply-To: <44D247F5.2040908@washburn.edu>
References: <44D247F5.2040908@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060803130736.062eed50@crimson-dragon.com>

Jewel sent the message below at 12:01 8/3/2006:
>Is is cumbersome or possible to move archives from a listserv running on
>L-Soft into Mailman.  I just took over an existing list and created it
>on Mailman.  There are archives from the old list I would like to import
>into Mailman.  I am running Mailman 2.1.7.  I cannot find anything in
>the listserv archives on this nor on google.  If anyone can send me any
>links or information that would help.
>
>Thanks,
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

If you have an .mbox file for each list and you want to use the 
default Pipermail archiver, it would be as simple as concatenating 
the old .mbox file with the one in the mailman archive directory and 
then running bin/arch --wipe to generate a new archive.

If they are only in HTML format, probably the simplest thing to do 
would be to put them in a separate directory and edit your archive 
template files pages to include a link that points to the "Old 
Archives". You would still need to run bin/arch --wipe to get those 
links to show up in the all of the new archive pages.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From mailman at veggiechinese.net  Thu Aug  3 22:42:18 2006
From: mailman at veggiechinese.net (William Yardley)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 13:42:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] delete or edit message in archives?
In-Reply-To: <d7c555be0608031235n2323a4aatf0d3c0dd37a8e801@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7c555be0608031235n2323a4aatf0d3c0dd37a8e801@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060803204218.GG13800@mitch.veggiechinese.net>

On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 03:35:48PM -0400, Bill Howe wrote:

> Is there a way to edit a portion of a message on the archive? a subscriber
> accidently included some language she would like vedited out.

See http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/faq.html

 "Q. I want to get rid of some messages in my archive. How do I do
this?"



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Aug  3 22:51:26 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 15:51:26 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving archives
In-Reply-To: <44D247F5.2040908@washburn.edu>
References: <44D247F5.2040908@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <p06200705c0f81219f837@[10.0.1.213]>

At 2:01 PM -0500 2006-08-03, Jewel wrote:

>  Is is cumbersome or possible to move archives from a listserv running on
>  L-Soft into Mailman.

See FAQs 1.31 and 5.1.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From secretary at healheadingley.org.uk  Thu Aug  3 22:48:06 2006
From: secretary at healheadingley.org.uk (Heal Secretary)
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 21:48:06 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] message body is blank for some users
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200608011738010625b58f3092@msapiro>
References: <PC1740200608011722400937bffb37b1@msapiro>
	<PC1740200608011738010625b58f3092@msapiro>
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060803213250.0215bbc8@healheadingley.org.uk>

Hi Mark
Thank you for this.


>Mark Sapiro wrote:
> >What are the Content Filtering settings for your list?
> >What do the headers of the post from the list with a blank body look like?

The current filtering settings are -

Should Mailman filter the content of list traffic according to the 
settings below? YES
Remove message attachments that have a matching content type. BLANK
Remove message attachments that don't have a matching content type. 
Leave this field blank to skip this filter test. BLANK
Remove message attachments that have a matching filename extension A 
LIST OF EXTENSIONS - EXE ETC
Remove message attachments that don't have a matching filename 
extension. Leave this field blank to skip this filter test BLANK
Should Mailman collapse multipart/alternative to its first part content? YES
Should Mailman convert text/html parts to plain text? This conversion 
happens after MIME attachments have been stripped. NO
Action to take when a message matches the content filtering rules. 
FORWARD TO LIST OWNER

I don't know what half of these mean so I'm none the wiser.
If you think it would be a good plan I can turn content filtering off 
altogether and ask Jonathan to send a new message......

Here's one of Jonathan's mails that was sent to the list with a blank 
body (between asterisks)

************************************************
 From ???@??? Wed May 31 19:18:38 2006
Return-path: <activists-bounces at healheadingley.org.uk>
Envelope-to: secretary at healheadingley.org.uk
Delivery-date: Tue, 30 May 2006 21:23:59 +0100
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To: activists at healheadingley.org.uk
Bcc:
Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 20:23:10 +0000
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         FILETIME=[E1DCB780:01C68426]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Subject: [activists] Transport through Headingley
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_______________________________________________
-- 
activists mailing list
activists at healheadingley.org.uk
http://mail.healheadingley.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/activists_healheadingley.org.uk

********************************************************************

Many thanks for any ideas
Nigel



Secretary of Heal Headingley
Campaigning for a Sustainable Balanced Community
www.healheadingley.org.uk  



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Aug  3 22:49:57 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 15:49:57 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] delete or edit message in archives?
In-Reply-To: <d7c555be0608031235n2323a4aatf0d3c0dd37a8e801@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7c555be0608031235n2323a4aatf0d3c0dd37a8e801@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06200704c0f811e7ec70@[10.0.1.213]>

At 3:35 PM -0400 2006-08-03, Bill Howe wrote:

>  Is there a way to edit a portion of a message on the archive? a subscriber
>  accidently included some language she would like vedited out.

See FAQ 3.3.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From condor2006 at hotmail.co.uk  Thu Aug  3 23:08:35 2006
From: condor2006 at hotmail.co.uk (Dan Zaz)
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 21:08:35 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Installation problem: 404 Errors
Message-ID: <BAY119-F27B983F207562D69BE099D8D530@phx.gbl>

Dear list,

I'm having major problems installing Mailman on my SuExec enabled server. I 
have followed pertinent instructions regarding installation in this 
environment, but cannot seem to access any mailman pages; all I get is "404 
Not Found" errors.

The virtual host is set up ok on the server config. files, to the best of my 
knowledge, as are the permissions. Is there a specific set of steps I could 
take to help me diagnose exactly where this problem is rooted?

I'm a Linux novice, and mailman is my first application installation, so 
this is likely a very basic error on my part. I'm wondering if it might be a 
server issue re. SuExec, rather than with mailman per se.

When I command: "suexec -V", I get: -D AP_DOC_ROOT="/var/www".
However, this is not my web doc path, which is /home/dir1/dir2/html
I installed mailman within the suexec path (as mentioned in the set of 
instructions I followed), at /var/www/mailman

Could this be at the root of the issue? And if so, would installing mailman 
within the web doc path work vis-a-vis SuExec?

Any help greatly appreciated..
Dan

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live? Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for free! 
http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb



From steele at agora-net.com  Thu Aug  3 23:17:38 2006
From: steele at agora-net.com (Ryan Steele)
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 17:17:38 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Installation problem: 404 Errors
In-Reply-To: <BAY119-F27B983F207562D69BE099D8D530@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY119-F27B983F207562D69BE099D8D530@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <44D267F2.8090806@agora-net.com>

Yep, gotta stick it in /var/www. Or, configure Apache to use a different 
directory as it's documentroot...but, seeing as how you're a LInux 
novice, I'd stick with putting things in /var/www for now.

Best,
Ryan

Dan Zaz wrote:
> Dear list,
>
> I'm having major problems installing Mailman on my SuExec enabled 
> server. I have followed pertinent instructions regarding installation 
> in this environment, but cannot seem to access any mailman pages; all 
> I get is "404 Not Found" errors.
>
> The virtual host is set up ok on the server config. files, to the best 
> of my knowledge, as are the permissions. Is there a specific set of 
> steps I could take to help me diagnose exactly where this problem is 
> rooted?
>
> I'm a Linux novice, and mailman is my first application installation, 
> so this is likely a very basic error on my part. I'm wondering if it 
> might be a server issue re. SuExec, rather than with mailman per se.
>
> When I command: "suexec -V", I get: -D AP_DOC_ROOT="/var/www".
> However, this is not my web doc path, which is /home/dir1/dir2/html
> I installed mailman within the suexec path (as mentioned in the set of 
> instructions I followed), at /var/www/mailman
>
> Could this be at the root of the issue? And if so, would installing 
> mailman within the web doc path work vis-a-vis SuExec?
>
> Any help greatly appreciated..
> Dan
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live? Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for 
> free! http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/steele%40agora-net.com
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp


-- 
Ryan Steele                         
Systems Administrator               steele at agora-net.com
AgoraNet, Inc.                      (302) 224-2475
314 E. Main Street, Suite 1         (302) 224-2552 (fax)
Newark, DE 19711                    http://www.agora-net.com



From steele at agora-net.com  Thu Aug  3 23:21:30 2006
From: steele at agora-net.com (Ryan Steele)
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 17:21:30 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Installation problem: 404 Errors
Message-ID: <44D268DA.6030008@agora-net.com>

Sorry, Forgot to forward this to the list.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Aug  3 23:31:40 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 16:31:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Installation problem: 404 Errors
In-Reply-To: <BAY119-F27B983F207562D69BE099D8D530@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY119-F27B983F207562D69BE099D8D530@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <p06200709c0f81a60e8df@[10.0.1.213]>

At 9:08 PM +0000 2006-08-03, Dan Zaz wrote:

>  I'm having major problems installing Mailman on my SuExec enabled server.
>  I have followed pertinent instructions regarding installation in this
>  environment, but cannot seem to access any mailman pages; all I get is
>  "404 Not Found" errors.

Did you search the FAQ?  The archives?  Did you search for things 
like "suexec"?

>  The virtual host is set up ok on the server config. files, to the best of
>  my knowledge, as are the permissions. Is there a specific set of steps I
>  could take to help me diagnose exactly where this problem is rooted?

Did you look at the logs?

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug  4 01:56:11 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 16:56:11 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] message body is blank for some users
In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.0.20060803213250.0215bbc8@healheadingley.org.uk>
Message-ID: <PC1740200608031656110921b50031c4@msapiro>

Heal Secretary wrote:
>
>The current filtering settings are -
>
>Should Mailman filter the content of list traffic according to the 
>settings below? YES
>Remove message attachments that have a matching content type. BLANK
>Remove message attachments that don't have a matching content type. 
>Leave this field blank to skip this filter test. BLANK
>Remove message attachments that have a matching filename extension A 
>LIST OF EXTENSIONS - EXE ETC
>Remove message attachments that don't have a matching filename 
>extension. Leave this field blank to skip this filter test BLANK


The net effect of the above is to remove all attachments with filename
extensions equal to one of the extensions in the list.


>Should Mailman collapse multipart/alternative to its first part content? YES

This could affect your issue. You could try setting it to No. When it
is set to yes, Mailman will replace a multipart/alternative part with
text/plain and text/html sub parts with just the text/plain part. If
that happens to be 'blank' you will get the result below.

However, the original message you posted at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-August/052525.html>
was not structured in this way. It was a simple text/html message.


>Should Mailman convert text/html parts to plain text? This conversion 
>happens after MIME attachments have been stripped. NO


I'm surprised because 'Yes' combined with other problems seems to me to
be the most likely cause of this.


>Action to take when a message matches the content filtering rules. 
>FORWARD TO LIST OWNER
>
>I don't know what half of these mean so I'm none the wiser.
>If you think it would be a good plan I can turn content filtering off 
>altogether and ask Jonathan to send a new message......


That will allow everything to pass through Mailman as sent. Whether or
not this is a good idea depends on whether you want to filter the
attachments with matching file name extensions.


I would try setting collapse multipart/alternative to No first.


>Here's one of Jonathan's mails that was sent to the list with a blank 
>body (between asterisks)
>
>************************************************
> From ???@??? Wed May 31 19:18:38 2006
>Return-path: <activists-bounces at healheadingley.org.uk>
>Envelope-to: secretary at healheadingley.org.uk
>Delivery-date: Tue, 30 May 2006 21:23:59 +0100
>Received: from hopeful9 by colo16.ukhost4u.com with local-bsmtp (Exim 4.52)
>         id 1FlAkw-0006Ui-1F
>         for secretary at healheadingley.org.uk; Tue, 30 May 2006 21:23:59 +0100
>X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1 (2006-03-10) on colo16.ukhost4u.com
>X-Spam-Level:
>X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,
>         MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER autolearn=ham version=3.1.1
>Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=colo16.ukhost4u.com)
>         by colo16.ukhost4u.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52)
>         id 1FlAkF-0006Pl-81; Tue, 30 May 2006 21:23:15 +0100
>Received: from [65.54.168.45] (helo=hotmail.com)
>         by colo16.ukhost4u.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1FlAkA-0006Of-6y
>         for activists at healheadingley.org.uk; Tue, 30 May 2006 21:23:10 +0100
>Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC;
>         Tue, 30 May 2006 13:23:15 -0700
>Message-ID: <BAY113-F35AF17143F677EB453ED2CD2920 at phx.gbl>
>Received: from 65.54.168.200 by by113fd.bay113.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP;
>         Tue, 30 May 2006 20:23:10 GMT
>X-Originating-IP: [62.252.224.13]
>X-Originating-Email: [Jonathan's email address]
>X-Sender: Jonathan's email address
>From: "Jonathan" <Jonathan's email address>
>To: activists at healheadingley.org.uk
>Bcc:
>Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 20:23:10 +0000
>X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 May 2006 20:23:15.0960 (UTC)
>         FILETIME=[E1DCB780:01C68426]
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.7


So it was manipulated by content filtering.


>Subject: [activists] Transport through Headingley
>X-BeenThere: activists at healheadingley.org.uk
>X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.7
>Precedence: list
>Reply-To: for local activists <activists at healheadingley.org.uk>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


And content filtering converted it to a single text/plain part either
by collapsing a multipart/alternative part to the first subpart or by
converting an html part to plain text.

We think the second thing didn't happen because
convert_html_to_plaintext is No. The first thing is not consistent
with the message you posted earlier, so only further testing will tell.

Test 1 - set collapse multipart/alternative to No and see what happens.
If the post is still blank,

Test 2 - set filter_content.to No.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From ldb at freestandards.org  Fri Aug  4 02:11:56 2006
From: ldb at freestandards.org (Lawrence Bowie)
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 20:11:56 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] To: Field is not what it it suppose to be
In-Reply-To: <PC174020060803114104054686c9e406@msapiro>
References: <PC174020060803114104054686c9e406@msapiro>
Message-ID: <44D290CC.10809@freestandards.org>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Lawrence Bowie wrote:
> 
> 
>>OK .. I am just now noticing this on my lists.
>>The To: field on all my lists have
>>
>>	mylist at example.org
>>
>>instead of
>>
>>	mylist at lists.example.org
>>
>>Although, I am sending it to lists.example.org.
>>
>>Is this a postfix or a mailman configuration issue?
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming you are talking about individual messages and not digests, I
> don't think Mailman does anything with To: headers except in the case
> of full personalization.
> 
> This is probably some canonicalization going on in an MTA because of
> CNAME DNS records.
> 

That is what I thought. Thank you Mark.

LDB



From ldb at freestandards.org  Fri Aug  4 02:42:01 2006
From: ldb at freestandards.org (Lawrence Bowie)
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 20:42:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Weird issuee again
Message-ID: <44D297D9.7080302@freestandards.org>

Whenever a user sends to my lists from his account he does NOT
receive his own post but yet

    New_members_options -> Do not send a copy of member's own post

is NOT checked.

Could it be that it was once checked?


Thanks,


LDB



From ldb at freestandards.org  Fri Aug  4 03:03:09 2006
From: ldb at freestandards.org (Lawrence Bowie)
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 21:03:09 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Weird issuee again
In-Reply-To: <44D297D9.7080302@freestandards.org>
References: <44D297D9.7080302@freestandards.org>
Message-ID: <44D29CCD.6070907@freestandards.org>

Lawrence Bowie wrote:
> Whenever a user sends to my lists from his account he does NOT
> receive his own post but yet
> 
>     New_members_options -> Do not send a copy of member's own post
> 
> is NOT checked.
> 
> Could it be that it was once checked?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> LDB
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/ldb%40freestandards.org
> 
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
> 
> 

Thanks Dan ...


http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users at python.org/msg39734.html


LDB



From dewey at ku.edu  Fri Aug  4 03:20:44 2006
From: dewey at ku.edu (Dewhirst, Rob)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 20:20:44 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving archives (from L-Soft LISTSERV to
	Mailman)
In-Reply-To: <44D247F5.2040908@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <C9F4FE51E4DB3B4EBCA6B115331EB72305480BA4@MAILBOXTWO.home.ku.edu>


> Is is cumbersome or possible to move archives from a listserv 
> running on L-Soft into Mailman.  I just took over an existing 
> list and created it on Mailman.  There are archives from the 
> old list I would like to import into Mailman.  I am running 
> Mailman 2.1.7.  I cannot find anything in the listserv 
> archives on this nor on google.  If anyone can send me any 
> links or information that would help.

I just spent several days doing exactly this.  I was going to write up a
very quick procedure, because your right about there being no good
reference.  

The faq's quoted in this thread are good starting points but not
complete. You will need to do some fine tuning of the resulting .mbox
file.  In particular, listserv manages dates in its archives
independently.  Over five years of LISTSERV archives I had mail from
1967 to 2098, thanks to bad clocks on email senders.

I'll see if I can put something together.

You will need access to the LISTSERV .LOG files for the list, not the
HTML archives.  Do you have those?  You can get them with a  LISTSERV
command if the list is still active.


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug  4 03:47:08 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 18:47:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving archives (from L-Soft LISTSERV toMailman)
In-Reply-To: <C9F4FE51E4DB3B4EBCA6B115331EB72305480BA4@MAILBOXTWO.home.ku.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1740200608031847080109f5b0aa15@msapiro>

Dewhirst, Rob wrote:
>
>The faq's quoted in this thread are good starting points but not
>complete. You will need to do some fine tuning of the resulting .mbox
>file.  In particular, listserv manages dates in its archives
>independently.  Over five years of LISTSERV archives I had mail from
>1967 to 2098, thanks to bad clocks on email senders.


Once you have a .mbox file, it is a good idea to process it with
bin/cleanarch to do some cleanup on From_ lines, escaping those that
fail various tests on real, message separating From_ lines. It doesn't
help with bogus dates though.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From neil.west at webmastersinc.net  Fri Aug  4 03:56:13 2006
From: neil.west at webmastersinc.net (neil.west at webmastersinc.net)
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 21:56:13 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Editor
Message-ID: <20060803215613.b77w2j9vu3w4cs8g@webmail.webmastersinc.net>

I am an administrator for a bunch of servers.  We allow different  
clients to use mailman to send to lists.  Some of the clients have not  
grasped the concept of not embedding images in the email.  Since the  
images are in the email, the bandwidth usage has sky rocketed for  
these clients.  Is anyone aware of a front end to mailman that the  
client can construct list emails and will store images in a web  
directory rather than in the email?  Please keep in mind that the  
clients are not that technically inclined.


Thanks for your help

Neil West



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Aug  4 05:15:36 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 22:15:36 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Editor
In-Reply-To: <20060803215613.b77w2j9vu3w4cs8g@webmail.webmastersinc.net>
References: <20060803215613.b77w2j9vu3w4cs8g@webmail.webmastersinc.net>
Message-ID: <p06200700c0f86b2a62ff@[10.0.1.213]>

At 9:56 PM -0400 2006-08-03, neil.west at webmastersinc.net wrote:

>                Is anyone aware of a front end to mailman that the
>  client can construct list emails and will store images in a web
>  directory rather than in the email?  Please keep in mind that the
>  clients are not that technically inclined.

Front-end to Mailman?  Why not just give these users a webmail server 
that works the way you want?

Alternatively, why not just turn on attachment scrubbing for 
everything posted to the list (instead of just the archives), and let 
Mailman do that work for you?

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From q.spineux at agenceribs.com  Fri Aug  4 10:29:30 2006
From: q.spineux at agenceribs.com (Quentin)
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 10:29:30 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailing-list in HTML
Message-ID: <44D3056A.1040605@agenceribs.com>

YEp!

I use mailman since a few days and I can't send the mailing-list in HTML 
format. How can I configure my mailman to send this page :

http://www.comblainaupont.be/spip.php?page=nouveautes

Cheers

Quentin




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Aug  4 10:47:04 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 03:47:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailing-list in HTML
In-Reply-To: <44D3056A.1040605@agenceribs.com>
References: <44D3056A.1040605@agenceribs.com>
Message-ID: <p06200701c0f8b9a2214e@[10.0.1.213]>

At 10:29 AM +0200 2006-08-04, Quentin wrote:

>  I use mailman since a few days and I can't send the mailing-list in HTML
>  format. How can I configure my mailman to send this page :
>
>  http://www.comblainaupont.be/spip.php?page=nouveautes

You don't.  Mailman will, for the most part, transmit to the mailing 
list recipients whatever you send to it.  You can configure filtering 
and conversion so that HTML gets stripped to plain text, and so that 
unsupported attachment types get removed, but that's it.

If you want HTML-formatted messages to be sent to your recipients, 
then you need to write HTML-formatted messages for them to read.  How 
you do that is going to be dependant on whatever program you use to 
read and write e-mail.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dewey at ku.edu  Fri Aug  4 16:55:08 2006
From: dewey at ku.edu (Dewhirst, Rob)
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 09:55:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving archives (from L-Soft LISTSERV toMailman)
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200608031847080109f5b0aa15@msapiro>
Message-ID: <C9F4FE51E4DB3B4EBCA6B115331EB72305480BE3@MAILBOXTWO.home.ku.edu>

> Once you have a .mbox file,

that's the hard part, really.  It took me days to find a script to do
this. Were I better at perl I could have probably done it myself, but I
am not.

I would strongly recommend performing this on a dummy list first, and
then renaming the "cleaned" mbox file to import into your real list. 

Here's a quick and dirty, but hopefully complete set of steps to convert
LISTSERV log archives to mailman mbox archives.

What you need:

 - the .logxx files for the list, probably located in
\LISTSERV\listname\ if you have access to the file system, otherwise you
can get them with a combination of INDEX and GET commands to the
LISTSERV processor.
 - the n2folder.pl script, which apparently shipped with some old
version of a PINE conversion package.  I think this is the same as a
script called "l2mail". I can't find where I got my clean, unwrapped
copy but would make a copy available on request.

1. Make the case of the .logxx filenames uniform. It may not be,
especially if the LISTSERV is on Windows. (e.g listname.log0404 and
LISTNAME.LOG0404)

2. cat the log files to listname.notebook

3. run the perl script on the notebook file: 

   perl n2folder.pl listname.notebook
 
* This script copies the resulting converted file to the mail folder of
the current user by default.
* be prepared for the script to barf on poorly formatted dates.  You may
need to edit the .notebook file and run the script repeatedly. 

4. copy and rename the notebook file from ~/mail/listname.notebook (or
wherever you put it) to listname.dirty.mbox (or whatever to indicate
it's not cleaned up)

5. /usr/local/mailman/bin/cleanarch < listname.dirty.mbox >
listname.new.mbox

6. stop mailman 

7. rename the currently active mailman list mbox if there is one in
/listname.mbox/listname.mbox/

8. cat listname.new.mbox listname.mbox.renamed > listname.mbox

9. bin/arch --wipe listname

10. check the web archives to make sure they are ok.

11. Go back and clean up dates in bad messages, or clean up
misinterpreted forwarded messages that were treated as sent messages.  A
single missing From line can screw up several messages.

12. lather, rinse, repeat #9-11

13. start mailman



From HisWeedness at gmx.net  Sat Aug  5 11:12:56 2006
From: HisWeedness at gmx.net (HisWeedness at gmx.net)
Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 11:12:56 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman, Virtual Domains, Mailer-Daemon
Message-ID: <44D46118.5020300@gmx.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi everybody, it's me once again ;)

Finally I made it to set up some mailinglists. The notification about
manually added list members are send out reliably. Now my question: Does
anybody of you have a good hint for me of what could be the reason that
mailman system-notifications are send out correctly but every incoming
mail send out from a member to the list cannot be delivered through
postfix? Every mail ends up with mailer-daemon "unknown user".

Wich conf-files would be helpfull to publish here?

Thank you for your help in advance!

Greeting,

Martin
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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=84UC
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From msapiro at value.net  Sat Aug  5 15:48:37 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 06:48:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman, Virtual Domains, Mailer-Daemon
In-Reply-To: <44D46118.5020300@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <PC1740200608050648370218ba01231f@msapiro>

HisWeedness at gmx.net wrote:
>
>Finally I made it to set up some mailinglists. The notification about
>manually added list members are send out reliably. Now my question: Does
>anybody of you have a good hint for me of what could be the reason that
>mailman system-notifications are send out correctly but every incoming
>mail send out from a member to the list cannot be delivered through
>postfix? Every mail ends up with mailer-daemon "unknown user".


See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.014.htp>
and <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node12.html> and its
subordinates.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From kwz-mm at commpartners.com  Sat Aug  5 17:30:23 2006
From: kwz-mm at commpartners.com (Karl Zander)
Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 11:30:23 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] htdig not rebuilding all dbs
Message-ID: <web-3141498@commpartners.com>

  
We use the htdig integration with Mailman 2.1.8.  We seem 
to  have one problem, not all the dbs are rebuilt when the 
cron job runs.

For example

-rw-rw-r--  1 mailman mailman 110979072 Aug  5 02:22 
db.docdb
-rw-rw-r--  1 mailman mailman   3568640 Jul 25 21:41 
db.docs.index
-rw-rw-r--  1 mailman mailman 159451494 Aug  5 02:22 
db.wordlist
-rw-rw-r--  1 mailman mailman 122032128 Jul 25 21:41 
db.words.db
-rw-r--r--  1 mailman mailman      3920 May 29 17:13 
listname.conf
-rw-rw-r--  1 mailman mailman         0 Aug  5 02:22 
rundig_last_run

Its not all the lists, just some.  Others rebuild all the 
dbs.  I have not been able to see any pattern.  The 
listname.mbox files have rw for both owner and group.

Any ideas on where/how to troubleshoot?

--Karl


From jimpop at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  5 20:53:26 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 14:53:26 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] htdig not rebuilding all dbs
In-Reply-To: <web-3141498@commpartners.com>
References: <web-3141498@commpartners.com>
Message-ID: <44D4E926.4020705@yahoo.com>

The htdig integration only builds the index if that list has seen new 
emails.

-Jim P.

Karl Zander wrote:
>   
> We use the htdig integration with Mailman 2.1.8.  We seem 
> to  have one problem, not all the dbs are rebuilt when the 
> cron job runs.
> 
> For example
> 
> -rw-rw-r--  1 mailman mailman 110979072 Aug  5 02:22 
> db.docdb
> -rw-rw-r--  1 mailman mailman   3568640 Jul 25 21:41 
> db.docs.index
> -rw-rw-r--  1 mailman mailman 159451494 Aug  5 02:22 
> db.wordlist
> -rw-rw-r--  1 mailman mailman 122032128 Jul 25 21:41 
> db.words.db
> -rw-r--r--  1 mailman mailman      3920 May 29 17:13 
> listname.conf
> -rw-rw-r--  1 mailman mailman         0 Aug  5 02:22 
> rundig_last_run
> 
> Its not all the lists, just some.  Others rebuild all the 
> dbs.  I have not been able to see any pattern.  The 
> listname.mbox files have rw for both owner and group.
> 
> Any ideas on where/how to troubleshoot?
> 
> --Karl
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jimpop%40yahoo.com
> 
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
> 


From HisWeedness at gmx.net  Sat Aug  5 23:30:09 2006
From: HisWeedness at gmx.net (HisWeedness at gmx.net)
Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:30:09 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman, Virtual Domains, Mailer-Daemon
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200608050648370218ba01231f@msapiro>
References: <PC1740200608050648370218ba01231f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <44D50DE1.4060307@gmx.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Many thanks, I have never found these pages before, I'm gonna check it out!

Greetings,
Martin

Mark Sapiro schrieb:
> HisWeedness at gmx.net wrote:
>> Finally I made it to set up some mailinglists. The notification about
>> manually added list members are send out reliably. Now my question: Does
>> anybody of you have a good hint for me of what could be the reason that
>> mailman system-notifications are send out correctly but every incoming
>> mail send out from a member to the list cannot be delivered through
>> postfix? Every mail ends up with mailer-daemon "unknown user".
> 
> 
> See
> <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.014.htp>
> and <http://www.list.org/mailman-install/node12.html> and its
> subordinates.
> 
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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R0JzHSFZSD2bCcv4rxUr7eU=
=rtkC
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From jamie at wilch.net  Mon Aug  7 02:14:32 2006
From: jamie at wilch.net (Jamie Wilch)
Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 18:14:32 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Confirm by email
Message-ID: <44D685E8.3030704@wilch.net>

I just setup mailman on a gentoo server with sendmail.  When anyone
tries to subscribe to the list, they get a confirmation email.  When
they try to reply to the email to confirm the subscription, the mailman
server sends back another confirmation email with a different
confirmation number.  It does the same if the user send a blank email
with only the confirm <number> line.  It will never confirm a
subscription via email.  The user can log onto the website and confirm
with no problem.

I've looked through the options and FAQ's but cannot figure this one out.

Thanks
Jamie

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From sean at sweetbourbon.com  Mon Aug  7 16:00:56 2006
From: sean at sweetbourbon.com (Sean)
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:00:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hostile address error
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.58.0608070954570.10065@seyyav.pair.com>


A list admin of a mailman server I administrate brought this error to my
attention when attempting to add an address that contained a forward slash
in the local part(real address not provided for security reasons):

  test/test at example.com  -- Hostile address (illegal characters)

The admin pointed out that rfc 822 states that the / is permitted in the
local part of an email address.

I suppose that Mailman has it reasons for not permitting an address that
contains a / but it would be nice to know what the reasons are to pass
long to the admin.  Can anyone provide any input on this?

Thanks,
-Sean


From Jason at Weatherserver.net  Mon Aug  7 21:15:01 2006
From: Jason at Weatherserver.net (Jason [WeatherServer])
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 15:15:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RSS
Message-ID: <001901c6ba55$c7ff9480$1400000a@workstation>

Is there a way to convert the mailman archives to RSS
--------------------------------------------
http://listserver.weatherserver.net
Weather Alerts, Traffic Alerts, Toronto Fire CAD Alerts
All to your email, 24/7/365
*****Visit us today*****

From CLopez at oas.org  Mon Aug  7 21:55:28 2006
From: CLopez at oas.org (Lopez, Carlos Andres)
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 15:55:28 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] help with new server.
Message-ID: <2957B420CFD3F449997CD4A0C7EA3B2E05D65D1B@CHASKI001.oas.org>

Hello.

It's my first time I'm working with Linux and my idea is to setup a
Mailman server.

I'm using Debian and postfix.

Does anyone know a good site where I can find some good how-to's setup
postfix and mailman?

Thanks for your help.

 

Carlos

 



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Tue Aug  8 00:01:50 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 17:01:50 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] help with new server.
In-Reply-To: <2957B420CFD3F449997CD4A0C7EA3B2E05D65D1B@CHASKI001.oas.org>
References: <2957B420CFD3F449997CD4A0C7EA3B2E05D65D1B@CHASKI001.oas.org>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00608071501s34dc38i47983199ff7fda1c@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/7/06, Lopez, Carlos Andres <CLopez at oas.org> wrote:
> Does anyone know a good site where I can find some good how-to's setup
> postfix and mailman?

This looks promising:
http://homex.subnet.at/~max/mail/mailman.php

I don't know if it's totally up-to-date, though.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From jana.nguyen at gmail.com  Tue Aug  8 01:44:49 2006
From: jana.nguyen at gmail.com (Jana Nguyen)
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 16:44:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to generate same passwords for all list per user
Message-ID: <1b7c7e3b0608071644r63867e62p9d14406b77eb3a39@mail.gmail.com>

Hi there,

How do I generate the same password for the same member on multiple
list?  Since, I'm migrating existing member of a list over to mailman,
existing member from majordomo doesn't have a password, passwords are
being generated by mailman when I add the member to the list.

A user belongs to multiple list on my project, and I want them to have
the same passwords for all list, how?

Tx.


From david at midrange.com  Tue Aug  8 02:47:42 2006
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 19:47:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] RSS
In-Reply-To: <001901c6ba55$c7ff9480$1400000a@workstation>
References: <001901c6ba55$c7ff9480$1400000a@workstation>
Message-ID: <44D7DF2E.6060909@midrange.com>

Jason [WeatherServer] wrote:
> Is there a way to convert the mailman archives to RSS

I'm generating RSS with MHonArc.

http://david.fallingrock.net/2005/07/22/rss-from-mhonarc/

david


From esper at sherohman.org  Sun Aug  6 21:58:54 2006
From: esper at sherohman.org (Dave Sherohman)
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 14:58:54 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to create site list?
Message-ID: <20060806195854.GA29909@genma.sherohman.org>

I just (finally) got around to upgrading my mail server from Debian
Woody to Sarge, and that brought a change of my Mailman version from
something a few years old to 2.1.5-8, which refuses to start unless
there's a list named "mailman".  I don't get the need for it (yes, I
have read the FAQs, but I'm not convinced that there's good cause for a
mailing list of all list admins to be an ironclad requirement), but,
fine, whatever.

/home/esper# newlist
Enter the name of the list: mailman at sherohman.org
Enter the email of the person running the list: esper at sherohman.org
Initial mailman password: 
Create a new, unpopulated mailing list.

Usage: /usr/sbin/newlist [options] [listname [listadmin-addr [admin-password]]]

Options:
<snippity-snip>
The list admin address need to be a fully-qualified address, like
owner at example.com, not just owner.

Illegal list name: mailman at localhost
/home/esper#

Ummm... OK.  It's refusing to create a list named mailman at localhost,
even though I told it to create mailman at sherohman.org.  I've also tried
using just mailman as the list name with identical results.

What do I need to do to get Mailman to agree to create the all-important
site list so that I can get my lists up and running again?

Also, I have a few virtual domains on the server.  Am I correct that a)
the site list should be at the server's primary hostname and b) it is
not necessary to create site lists of mailman@[every virtual domain on
the box]?


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Aug  8 11:51:35 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 04:51:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] help with new server.
In-Reply-To: <2957B420CFD3F449997CD4A0C7EA3B2E05D65D1B@CHASKI001.oas.org>
References: <2957B420CFD3F449997CD4A0C7EA3B2E05D65D1B@CHASKI001.oas.org>
Message-ID: <p06200703c0fe0f088f3d@[10.0.1.210]>

At 3:55 PM -0400 2006-08-07, Lopez, Carlos Andres wrote:

>  Does anyone know a good site where I can find some good how-to's setup
>  postfix and mailman?

We've worked pretty hard on the documentation and the FAQ.  Is there 
something specific you're looking for that is not covered there?

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From jrlamar at owu.edu  Tue Aug  8 15:24:18 2006
From: jrlamar at owu.edu (Jason LaMar)
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 09:24:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Deleting several entire archives
Message-ID: <C0FE08C2.1C0B4%jrlamar@owu.edu>

I've read the "How can I remove a post from the list archive / remove an
entire archive?" entry in the FAQ, but I was wondering if there were any
shortcuts to make the process less tedious -- especially with a dozen or so
list archives that I want to just wipe out and start from scratch
(rebuilding their public Web archives so that they're blank).

Is it possible to do a cp /dev/null against the mbox raw archive files? Or
am I just making this more difficult than it needs to be, and there are a
couple of quick steps to accommodate mass archive wiping?

Also, nobody is actually checking any of these archives right now (or using
any of the lists, for that matter), so is it necessary to turn off archiving
and switch archives from public to private to enable this? Or are those just
"courtesy" tasks for mailing users?



Thanks,

Jason

_________________________

Jason LaMar
Director of Information Services
Ohio Wesleyan University | Delaware, OH 43015
AIM/Yahoo IM: jasonrlamar | MSN/Google Talk: jasonrlamar at gmail.com
Tel: 740-368-3131 | Fax: 740-368-3272 | Web: http://www.owu.edu/




From jmaurin at jonis.com.br  Tue Aug  8 15:40:01 2006
From: jmaurin at jonis.com.br (Jonis Maurin Ceara)
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 10:40:01 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] error: unknow user
Message-ID: <44D89431.4030501@jonis.com.br>

Hi list.


I'm trying to configure mailman but i'm getting this 'little' error:

Aug  8 10:34:36 toyota postfix/virtual[12523]: 14605E7B08: 
to=<|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe 
teste at mouralacerda.edu.br>,orig_to=<teste-subscribe at mouralacerda.edu.br>, 
relay=virtual, delay=9, status=bounced (unknown 
user:"|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe teste at mouralacerda.edu.br")



On 'aliases' file, i have these lines:
# STANZA START: teste
# CREATED: Tue Aug  8 10:34:53 2006
teste:             "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post teste"
teste-admin:       "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman admin teste"
teste-bounces:     "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces teste"
teste-confirm:     "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman confirm teste"
teste-join:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman join teste"
teste-leave:       "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman leave teste"
teste-owner:       "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman owner teste"
teste-request:     "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman request teste"
teste-subscribe:   "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe teste"
teste-unsubscribe: "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe teste"


what i'm doing wrong?
Everything else is working fine.

Thanks!


From jonis at mouralacerda.edu.br  Tue Aug  8 15:29:57 2006
From: jonis at mouralacerda.edu.br (Jonis Maurin Ceara)
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 10:29:57 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] error: unknow user
Message-ID: <44D891D5.2060908@mouralacerda.edu.br>

Hi.
I'm trying to make my mailman works, but i got this error on mail.log:
Aug  8 10:24:19 toyota postfix/virtual[12190]: 8629FE7B03: 
to=<|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe 
teste at mouralacerda.edu.br>,orig_to=<teste-subscribe at mouralacerda.edu.br>, 
relay=virtual, delay=3, status=bounced (unknown 
user:"|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe teste at mouralacerda.edu.br")

What's wrong?
I have these lines on 'aliases' file:
# STANZA START: teste
# CREATED: Tue Aug  8 10:22:59 2006
teste:             "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post teste"
teste-admin:       "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman admin teste"
teste-bounces:     "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces teste"
teste-confirm:     "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman confirm teste"
teste-join:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman join teste"
teste-leave:       "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman leave teste"
teste-owner:       "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman owner teste"
teste-request:     "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman request teste"
teste-subscribe:   "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe teste"
teste-unsubscribe: "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe teste"


Thanks!

-- 


*Jonis Maurin Cear? *
Setor de Internet
(16) 2101-1010 - Telefonista
(16) 2101-1104 - Sala
jonis at mouralacerda.edu.br <mailto:jonis at mouralacerda.edu.br>

	*Centro Universit?rio Moura Lacerda <http://www.mouralacerda.edu.br>*


"Esta mensagem cont?m informa??es confidenciais e foi enviada somente 
ao(s) destinat?rio(s) acima. Cabe ao destinat?rio cuidar quanto ao 
tratamento adequado. Sem a devida autoriza??o, a divulga??o, a 
reprodu??o, a distribui??o ou qualquer outra a??o s?o proibidas e 
pass?veis de san??o, c?vel e criminal. Caso voc? n?o seja a pessoa 
endere?ada, n?o dever? divulgar, distribuir ou copiar esta mensagem. Se 
voc? a recebeu por engano, favor notificar imediatamente o remetente 
pelo pr?prio e-mail e em seguida destru?-la. O conte?do desta e seus 
anexos n?o representam necessariamente a opini?o e a inten??o da 
empresa, n?o implicando em qualquer obriga??o ou responsabilidade 
adicionais."

-- 
Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo sistema de antiv?rus e
 acredita-se estar livre de perigo.



From mavery at mail.otherwhen.com  Tue Aug  8 16:08:10 2006
From: mavery at mail.otherwhen.com (Mike Avery)
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 08:08:10 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] error: unknow user
In-Reply-To: <44D89431.4030501@jonis.com.br>
References: <44D89431.4030501@jonis.com.br>
Message-ID: <44D89ACA.5080904@mail.otherwhen.com>

Jonis Maurin Ceara wrote:
> Hi list.
>
>
> I'm trying to configure mailman but i'm getting this 'little' error:
>
> Aug  8 10:34:36 toyota postfix/virtual[12523]: 14605E7B08: 
> to=<|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe 
> teste at mouralacerda.edu.br>,orig_to=<teste-subscribe at mouralacerda.edu.br>, 
> relay=virtual, delay=9, status=bounced (unknown 
> user:"|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe teste at mouralacerda.edu.br")
>
>
>
> On 'aliases' file, i have these lines:
> # STANZA START: teste
> # CREATED: Tue Aug  8 10:34:53 2006
> teste:             "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post teste"
> teste-admin:       "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman admin teste"
> teste-bounces:     "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces teste"
> teste-confirm:     "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman confirm teste"
> teste-join:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman join teste"
> teste-leave:       "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman leave teste"
> teste-owner:       "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman owner teste"
> teste-request:     "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman request teste"
> teste-subscribe:   "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe teste"
> teste-unsubscribe: "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe teste"
>
>
> what i'm doing wrong?
> Everything else is working fine.
>   
Did you run newaliases?

Mike




From jmaurin at jonis.com.br  Tue Aug  8 16:43:34 2006
From: jmaurin at jonis.com.br (Jonis Maurin Ceara)
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:43:34 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] error: unknow user
In-Reply-To: <44D89ACA.5080904@mail.otherwhen.com>
References: <44D89431.4030501@jonis.com.br>
	<44D89ACA.5080904@mail.otherwhen.com>
Message-ID: <44D8A316.80205@jonis.com.br>

Mike Avery escreveu:
> Jonis Maurin Ceara wrote:
>> Hi list.
>>
>>
>> I'm trying to configure mailman but i'm getting this 'little' error:
>>
>> Aug  8 10:34:36 toyota postfix/virtual[12523]: 14605E7B08: 
>> to=<|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe 
>> teste at mouralacerda.edu.br>,orig_to=<teste-subscribe at mouralacerda.edu.br>, 
>> relay=virtual, delay=9, status=bounced (unknown 
>> user:"|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe 
>> teste at mouralacerda.edu.br")
>>
>>
>>
>> On 'aliases' file, i have these lines:
>> # STANZA START: teste
>> # CREATED: Tue Aug  8 10:34:53 2006
>> teste:             "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post teste"
>> teste-admin:       "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman admin teste"
>> teste-bounces:     "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces teste"
>> teste-confirm:     "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman confirm teste"
>> teste-join:        "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman join teste"
>> teste-leave:       "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman leave teste"
>> teste-owner:       "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman owner teste"
>> teste-request:     "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman request teste"
>> teste-subscribe:   "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe teste"
>> teste-unsubscribe: "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe teste"
>>
>>
>> what i'm doing wrong?
>> Everything else is working fine.
>>   
> Did you run newaliases?
>
> Mike
>
>
>


Yes. Problem still :(

I have no idea what's wrong now.

I'm using courier as pop and postfix.



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Tue Aug  8 17:06:07 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 10:06:07 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] error: unknow user
In-Reply-To: <44D8A316.80205@jonis.com.br>
References: <44D89431.4030501@jonis.com.br>
	<44D89ACA.5080904@mail.otherwhen.com> <44D8A316.80205@jonis.com.br>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00608080806m445650c1l164100811bec70ae@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/8/06, Jonis Maurin Ceara <jmaurin at jonis.com.br> wrote:
> Mike Avery escreveu:
> > Did you run newaliases?
> Yes. Problem still :(
>
> I have no idea what's wrong now.
>
> I'm using courier as pop and postfix.

Courier doesn't figure into this. Are you absolutely double-plus sure
that postfix is configured to obey the /etc/aliases file? (Your
main.cf should have two lines in it:
alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases
alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases
Note that extra entries may appear along with each of these lines,
which is fine, as long as /etc/alises is there.)

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From jmaurin at jonis.com.br  Tue Aug  8 18:09:18 2006
From: jmaurin at jonis.com.br (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jonis_Maurin_Cear=E1?=)
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:09:18 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] error: unknow user
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00608080806m445650c1l164100811bec70ae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44D89431.4030501@jonis.com.br>	
	<44D89ACA.5080904@mail.otherwhen.com> <44D8A316.80205@jonis.com.br>
	<6fbe3da00608080806m445650c1l164100811bec70ae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44D8B72E.1060704@jonis.com.br>

Patrick Bogen escreveu:
> On 8/8/06, Jonis Maurin Ceara <jmaurin at jonis.com.br> wrote:
>> Mike Avery escreveu:
>> > Did you run newaliases?
>> Yes. Problem still :(
>>
>> I have no idea what's wrong now.
>>
>> I'm using courier as pop and postfix.
>
> Courier doesn't figure into this. Are you absolutely double-plus sure
> that postfix is configured to obey the /etc/aliases file? (Your
> main.cf should have two lines in it:
> alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases
> alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases
> Note that extra entries may appear along with each of these lines,
> which is fine, as long as /etc/alises is there.)
>
Almost done ;)

I've re-read manual (yeah, it's my mistake :(  ) and i've created 
"/usr/local/mailman/data/virtual-mailman" file and added this line to my 
mm_cfg.py "POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['mouralacerda.edu.br']"

now i got another error:
Aug  8 13:05:11 toyota postfix/virtual[14793]: 4B164E7AF4: 
to=<teste-subscribe at mouralacerda.edu.br>, relay=virtual, delay=5, 
status=bounced (unknown user: "teste-subscribe at mouralacerda.edu.br")

i've alread run  "bin/genaliases" and 'newaliases' commands.

 


From jimpop at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  8 18:21:07 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:21:07 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Content Filtering
Message-ID: <1155054067.16639.15.camel@localhost>

I've got a busy list that every now and then distributes a posted email
where the body is everything up until the first single quote character.
For example a recent email came in at 2 paragraphs, but 

   Your email was very helpful- I really do have some 
   alternatives to some of the circumstances that I find 
   oppressive-to the extent I don


Any ideas on what could cause that?

I've got convert_html_to_plaintext = Yes
collapse_alternatives = Yes
filter_mime_types = "images"
filter_filename_extensions = "exe bat cmd com pif scr vbs cpl zip"

-Jim P.




From richard.crane at haskins.yale.edu  Tue Aug  8 20:37:30 2006
From: richard.crane at haskins.yale.edu (Richard Crane)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 14:37:30 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trouble moving mailings lists to replacement system
Message-ID: <9D9C4EA2-AFDB-4117-8968-1981EF238C2F@haskins.yale.edu>

I have almost successfully moved a set of lists to a new computer.   
Both are running OS X server, the older Mailman 2.1.6, the new  
2.1.8   All I need to do is make the lists advertised on the listinfo  
page, even though they are on the old system.  If I directly enter  
the URL of a list for either regular or admin, I can get to it and  
all the information appears to be clear.

Any suggestions on how to get the lists appear on the summary page?

Thanks,



Richard Crane
-------
Haskins Laboratories / (203) 865-6163 X 275 /  FAX (203) 865-8963
300 George Street/New Haven, CT 06511



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Tue Aug  8 21:09:59 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:09:59 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trouble moving mailings lists to replacement
 system
In-Reply-To: <9D9C4EA2-AFDB-4117-8968-1981EF238C2F@haskins.yale.edu>
References: <9D9C4EA2-AFDB-4117-8968-1981EF238C2F@haskins.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060808120742.07cb1838@crimson-dragon.com>

Richard Crane sent the message below at 11:37 8/8/2006:
>I have almost successfully moved a set of lists to a new computer.
>Both are running OS X server, the older Mailman 2.1.6, the new
>2.1.8   All I need to do is make the lists advertised on the listinfo
>page, even though they are on the old system.  If I directly enter
>the URL of a list for either regular or admin, I can get to it and
>all the information appears to be clear.
>
>Any suggestions on how to get the lists appear on the summary page?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

If these lists were shown on the old server they should be shown on 
the new one if you copied the list config.pck files over.

To set display of these lists, you need to go to the list admin page, 
select Privacy options, then on the Subscription rules page set 
advertised = Yes.



Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From richard.crane at haskins.yale.edu  Tue Aug  8 21:28:41 2006
From: richard.crane at haskins.yale.edu (Richard Crane)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 15:28:41 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trouble moving mailings lists to replacement
	system
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060808120742.07cb1838@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <9D9C4EA2-AFDB-4117-8968-1981EF238C2F@haskins.yale.edu>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060808120742.07cb1838@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <8B600922-7809-43F1-B720-ECC0476ABB21@haskins.yale.edu>


On Aug 8, 2006, at 3:09 PM, Dragon wrote:

> Richard Crane sent the message below at 11:37 8/8/2006:
>> I have almost successfully moved a set of lists to a new computer.
>> Both are running OS X server, the older Mailman 2.1.6, the new
>> 2.1.8   All I need to do is make the lists advertised on the listinfo
>> page, even though they are on the old system.  If I directly enter
>> the URL of a list for either regular or admin, I can get to it and
>> all the information appears to be clear.
>>
>> Any suggestions on how to get the lists appear on the summary page?
> ---------------- End original message. ---------------------
>
> If these lists were shown on the old server they should be shown on  
> the new one if you copied the list config.pck files over.
>
> To set display of these lists, you need to go to the list admin  
> page, select Privacy options, then on the Subscription rules page  
> set advertised = Yes.

I did copy the lists/ directories.  Running bin/dumpdb on a new list  
shows this properly set:

[----- start pickle file -----]
<----- start object 1 ----->

     'acceptable_aliases': '\n',
     'admin_immed_notify': True,
     'admin_member_chunksize': 30,
     'admin_notify_mchanges': False,
     'admin_responses': {},
     'administrivia': True,
     'advertised': 1,
     'anonymous_list': False,
     'archive': True,
     'archive_private': 0,
     'archive_volume_frequency': 1,
[ .... ]

Richard Crane
-----
Albert Einstein, when asked to describe radio, replied:
"You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull  
his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you  
understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send  
signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that  
there is no cat ."



From kclair at gmail.com  Tue Aug  8 22:46:37 2006
From: kclair at gmail.com (K. Clair)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 16:46:37 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problems after manually deleting held messages
Message-ID: <dff375270608081346j5cb8fd18g3edd5a5c1dc12e8f@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I manually deleted held messages for a list by removing them from the
/home/mailman/data directory.

Now, the pending moderator requests section of the admin interface
thinks for a very long time and then eventually ends in an internal
server error.

An strace of the thinking process reveals these sorts of messages over and over:
write(6, "Aug 08 14:41:32 2006 (4252) acti"..., 139) = 139
unlink("/home/mailman/data/heldmsg-activist-6196.pck") = -1 ENOENT (No
such file or directory)
stat64("/home/mailman/data/heldmsg-activist-6217.pck", 0xbfffecf0) =
-1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
gettimeofday({1155062492, 528507}, NULL) = 0
stat64("/etc/localtime", {st_mode=S_IFREG|0444, st_size=1267, ...}) = 0
write(6, "Aug 08 14:41:32 2006 (4252) acti"..., 107) = 107
unlink("/home/mailman/data/heldmsg-activist-6217.pck") = -1 ENOENT (No
such file or directory)

... and then eventually this type of thing repeats:
mmap2(NULL, 139264, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_ANONYMOUS,
-1, 0) = 0xb67f9000
munmap(0xb681b000, 135168)              = 0
mmap2(NULL, 143360, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_ANONYMOUS,
-1, 0) = 0xae09a000
munmap(0xb67f9000, 139264)              = 0

I thought that maybe mailman was going through all the messages it
thought should be held, and our internal resource monitor on our
webservers was killing the process after it was taking too long.
However, it seems like every time it runs, it tries to delete the same
held messages (judged by me to be the same because the numbers that it
is trying to unlink are the same with each run).

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Kristina Clair


From Mic.Clayton at snowyhydro.com.au  Wed Aug  9 00:34:36 2006
From: Mic.Clayton at snowyhydro.com.au (Clayton Mic)
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 08:34:36 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderators not being notified of pending posts
Message-ID: <5BA6B3FB35CF17499BE4407C22EF691B3A60CC@snowyhydro.com.au>


Hi.

After recently setting our list to only accept List Member postings in
an effort to reduce spamming we had to deal with we lost the moderators
of the list being notified that there are pending posts.

I don't have access to the command line areas of Mailman as we go
through a third party ISP. We make alterations to our Mailman settings
through the front end of Mailman.

We have had 3 moderators maintaining the postings and this morning I
replaced 2 of them with one and reset this setting, thinking that it may
have got the post notification going again. Still no luck.

Thanks for any tips or suggestions that I can forward to my ISP.



Mic Clayton



EMAIL DISCLAIMER

Snowy Hydro :  Confidential Communication
This email (which includes any attachments) may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged or protected by copyright. If this email has been sent to you by mistake, please inform us by reply and then delete the email and destroy any printed copy and do not disclose or use the information in it. There is no warranty that this email is error or virus free. If this is a private communication it does not represent the views of Snowy Hydro.

Snowy Hydro collects personal information to provide our services. For more information about use, disclosure and access see our privacy policy at www.snowyhydro.com.au

From kevin.mcgrail at thoughtworthy.com  Wed Aug  9 00:37:54 2006
From: kevin.mcgrail at thoughtworthy.com (Kevin A. McGrail)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 18:37:54 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Stalls for Outgoing Emalis
Message-ID: <000201c6bb3b$51731940$c90a0a0a@thoughtworthy.internal>

We have a problem where in recent weeks we have seen mailman stall on sending emails.  The emails end up in the archives and get properly placed in qfiles/out but simply never get sent.  A restart of the service "fixes" the problem. We have also upgraded to the latest mailman to make sure that was not an issue.

In the log files, we get the following:

Aug 08 09:44:41 2006 (11723) Cannot connect to SMTP server localhost on port smtp

Once this occurs, outgoing mail ceases until a restart of the service/runners.

I believe the box is hitting it's limit of sendmail services and refusing service and that the mailman service is not gracefully retrying later, either by design or a bug.  Is this expected behavior or is there a setting I have missed?

Any thoughts?

Regards,
KAM

From phanh at canby.k12.or.us  Wed Aug  9 01:29:17 2006
From: phanh at canby.k12.or.us (Hung Phan)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 16:29:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] moderator approval for attachment
Message-ID: <AB46B92F-1012-4384-8088-7F2BC4D0C126@canby.k12.or.us>

Is it possible to setup moderator approval for attachments? I don't  
see there is an option for that in Content Filtering page.

Thanks,


From jimpop at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  9 04:17:10 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 22:17:10 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Forum archive
Message-ID: <44D945A6.6040404@yahoo.com>

Does anyone know of a way to archive emails similar to the way a forum
is laid out?   I'm finding more and more that I glean better info from
web based forums, rather than email archives, simply because the
all-on-one-page forum is easier to scan through and read.

Tia,

-Jim P.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Aug  9 04:16:28 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 21:16:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Trouble moving mailings lists to replacement
 system
In-Reply-To: <9D9C4EA2-AFDB-4117-8968-1981EF238C2F@haskins.yale.edu>
References: <9D9C4EA2-AFDB-4117-8968-1981EF238C2F@haskins.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <p0620070ac0fef56e48e9@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:37 PM -0400 2006-08-08, Richard Crane wrote:

>  I have almost successfully moved a set of lists to a new computer.
>  Both are running OS X server, the older Mailman 2.1.6, the new
>  2.1.8   All I need to do is make the lists advertised on the listinfo
>  page, even though they are on the old system.  If I directly enter
>  the URL of a list for either regular or admin, I can get to it and
>  all the information appears to be clear.

This sounds like a virtual server issue, or perhaps a difference in 
the name of the server that is configured in mm_cfg.py.  Did you 
follow the instructions in FAQ 3.4?

Otherwise, you may need to start looking at the troubleshooting 
instructions in FAQ 3.14.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Aug  9 04:20:39 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 21:20:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Stalls for Outgoing Emalis
In-Reply-To: <000201c6bb3b$51731940$c90a0a0a@thoughtworthy.internal>
References: <000201c6bb3b$51731940$c90a0a0a@thoughtworthy.internal>
Message-ID: <p0620070bc0fef61f724d@[10.0.1.210]>

At 6:37 PM -0400 2006-08-08, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:

>  Once this occurs, outgoing mail ceases until a restart of the 
>service/runners.

Have you looked at the section of the FAQ discussing performance 
tuning of your system?  See FAQs 6.3, 6.6, and 6.8.

>  I believe the box is hitting it's limit of sendmail services and refusing
>  service and that the mailman service is not gracefully retrying later,
>  either by design or a bug.  Is this expected behavior or is there a setting
>  I have missed?

That's a reasonable conclusion, but with proper tuning of the MTA and 
configuration of Mailman, you shouldn't reach that point.  Start with 
the FAQ entries mentioned above.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Aug  9 04:21:59 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 21:21:59 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] moderator approval for attachment
In-Reply-To: <AB46B92F-1012-4384-8088-7F2BC4D0C126@canby.k12.or.us>
References: <AB46B92F-1012-4384-8088-7F2BC4D0C126@canby.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <p0620070cc0fef6faa5be@[10.0.1.210]>

At 4:29 PM -0700 2006-08-08, Hung Phan wrote:

>  Is it possible to setup moderator approval for attachments? I don't
>  see there is an option for that in Content Filtering page.

Not per se, no.  You get moderator approval of the whole message, but 
I don't think that the web interface shows you any attachments that 
come with the message, although it may indicate what the type of 
attachments are and what the filenames are.  That's about it.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Aug  9 04:58:57 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 21:58:57 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Forum archive
In-Reply-To: <44D945A6.6040404@yahoo.com>
References: <44D945A6.6040404@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p0620070ec0feffa6ae3a@[10.0.1.210]>

At 10:17 PM -0400 2006-08-08, Jim Popovitch wrote:

>  Does anyone know of a way to archive emails similar to the way a forum
>  is laid out?   I'm finding more and more that I glean better info from
>  web based forums, rather than email archives, simply because the
>  all-on-one-page forum is easier to scan through and read.

Have you tried alternative archive options, such as those discussed 
in the FAQ?  Or the items mentioned in the FAQ where you can actually 
gateway between Mailman-hosted mailing lists and a forum-based 
discussion system?

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From jimpop at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  9 05:18:21 2006
From: jimpop at yahoo.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 23:18:21 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Forum archive
In-Reply-To: <p0620070ec0feffa6ae3a@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <44D945A6.6040404@yahoo.com> <p0620070ec0feffa6ae3a@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <44D953FD.4020901@yahoo.com>

Brad Knowles wrote:
> At 10:17 PM -0400 2006-08-08, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> 
>>  Does anyone know of a way to archive emails similar to the way a forum
>>  is laid out?   I'm finding more and more that I glean better info from
>>  web based forums, rather than email archives, simply because the
>>  all-on-one-page forum is easier to scan through and read.
> 
> Have you tried alternative archive options, such as those discussed in
> the FAQ?  Or the items mentioned in the FAQ where you can actually
> gateway between Mailman-hosted mailing lists and a forum-based
> discussion system?

Of course not.  ;-)  FAQ?!??! What FAQ?  ;-)

Seriously, I never thought that something like that would be in the FAQ,
I'll give it a look.  Meanwhile, if anyone has a recommendation for one
please let me know.

Thanks Brad,

-Jim P.




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Aug  9 05:23:14 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 22:23:14 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Forum archive
In-Reply-To: <44D953FD.4020901@yahoo.com>
References: <44D945A6.6040404@yahoo.com>
	<p0620070ec0feffa6ae3a@[10.0.1.210]> <44D953FD.4020901@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06200710c0ff0540fe35@[10.0.1.210]>

At 11:18 PM -0400 2006-08-08, Jim Popovitch wrote:

>>  Have you tried alternative archive options, such as those discussed in
>>  the FAQ?  Or the items mentioned in the FAQ where you can actually
>>  gateway between Mailman-hosted mailing lists and a forum-based
>>  discussion system?
>
>  Of course not.  ;-)  FAQ?!??! What FAQ?  ;-)
>
>  Seriously, I never thought that something like that would be in the FAQ,
>  I'll give it a look.  Meanwhile, if anyone has a recommendation for one
>  please let me know.

The most useful entries are likely to be 1.26 and 4.4, but you may 
find others that are also of interest.  We don't have a great deal of 
information on these subjects, as we don't use these kinds of tools 
on python.org, and we haven't had anyone with first-hand experience 
come forward to provide any more information than you can find in 
those FAQ entries.  But there are at least some links to packages you 
can try, if nothing else.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From kevin.mcgrail at thoughtworthy.com  Wed Aug  9 06:39:15 2006
From: kevin.mcgrail at thoughtworthy.com (Kevin A. McGrail)
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 00:39:15 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Stalls for Outgoing Emalis
References: <000201c6bb3b$51731940$c90a0a0a@thoughtworthy.internal>
	<p0620070bc0fef61f724d@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <010301c6bb6d$c538c820$980b0a0a@thoughtworthy.internal>

> Have you looked at the section of the FAQ discussing performance tuning of 
> your system?  See FAQs 6.3, 6.6, and 6.8.

Thanks.  I've made some tweaks in line with these FAQs and have some 
comments.

FAQ 6.6 mentions SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 10 but 6.3 mentions 2-5.  I'm using VERP 
so I believe this is irrelevant to my installation but it might be good to 
clarify for consistency.

Also FAQ 6.6 mentions changes because mailman didn't used to use a FIFO 
queue.  The FAQ specifies this was a target for 2.1.X mailman and to my 
knowledge QRUNNER_PROCESS_LIFETIME &  QRUNNER_MAX_MESSAGES were remove from 
Default.py.

>>  I believe the box is hitting it's limit of sendmail services and 
>> refusing
>>  service and that the mailman service is not gracefully retrying later,
>>  either by design or a bug.  Is this expected behavior or is there a 
>> setting
>>  I have missed?
>
> That's a reasonable conclusion, but with proper tuning of the MTA and 
> configuration of Mailman, you shouldn't reach that point.  Start with the 
> FAQ entries mentioned above.

The box is an incoming mail server as well so while we can tweak things to 
make running out of child daemons minimal, with the dictionary 
attacks+spammers+normal mail traffic, I see no way that I can guarantee that 
the box will not run out of connections available.  Am I correct that if 
this occurs, the qfile/out runner will stall?

Thanks again,
KAM 



From jnyland at gmail.com  Wed Aug  9 06:45:37 2006
From: jnyland at gmail.com (Jared Nyland)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 22:45:37 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Slow Mailman issues
Message-ID: <a5d091110608082145h6ea01d9cw2e0c8ee2616c7153@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

I have been running a Mailman server for a little while and have noticed
that things are really slow.  Once I restart mailman and postfix the first
mail seems to go through very quickly then the next mail seems to take a
long time. I have been trying to trouble shoot this problem and have noticed
in my logs that mail is being sent to listname-bounces at domain.com.  I was
just wondering if this sounds correct and if not is there away to fix this
issue?



Thanks for any help you can give
Jared


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Aug  9 06:48:36 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 23:48:36 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Slow Mailman issues
In-Reply-To: <a5d091110608082145h6ea01d9cw2e0c8ee2616c7153@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a5d091110608082145h6ea01d9cw2e0c8ee2616c7153@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06200712c0ff1987bef8@[10.0.1.210]>

At 10:45 PM -0600 2006-08-08, Jared Nyland wrote:

>  I have been running a Mailman server for a little while and have noticed
>  that things are really slow.  Once I restart mailman and postfix the first
>  mail seems to go through very quickly then the next mail seems to take a
>  long time. I have been trying to trouble shoot this problem and have noticed
>  in my logs that mail is being sent to listname-bounces at domain.com.  I was
>  just wondering if this sounds correct and if not is there away to fix this
>  issue?

Did you check the FAQ and search for things like "performance tuning"?

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Aug  9 07:42:28 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 00:42:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Stalls for Outgoing Emalis
In-Reply-To: <007c01c6bb6c$eee5af90$980b0a0a@thoughtworthy.internal>
References: <000201c6bb3b$51731940$c90a0a0a@thoughtworthy.internal>
	<p0620070bc0fef61f724d@[10.0.1.210]>
	<007c01c6bb6c$eee5af90$980b0a0a@thoughtworthy.internal>
Message-ID: <p06200711c0ff172930cf@[10.0.1.210]>

At 12:33 AM -0400 2006-08-09, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:

>  FAQ 6.6 mentions SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 10 but 6.3 mentions 2-5.  I'm using VERP
>  so I believe this is irrelevant to my installation but it might be good to
>  clarify for consistency.

FAQ 6.6 is probably a little older, and appears to need to be 
updated.  You are correct, that if you are VERPing everything, then 
this particular parameter is not relevant to your site.

>  Also FAQ 6.6 mentions changes because mailman didn't used to use a FIFO
>  queue.  The FAQ specifies this was a target for 2.1.X mailman and to my
>  knowledge QRUNNER_PROCESS_LIFETIME &  QRUNNER_MAX_MESSAGES were remove
>  from Default.py.

I'm not familiar with the code at that depth, so I would have to 
leave those modifications to the FAQ to someone who could answer 
those questions.

Mark, are you listening?

>  The box is an incoming mail server as well so while we can tweak things
>  to make running out of child daemons minimal, with the dictionary
>  attacks+spammers+normal mail traffic, I see no way that I can guarantee
>  that the box will not run out of connections available.  Am I correct that
>  if this occurs, the qfile/out runner will stall?

For a large site, you want to split incoming and outgoing mail 
services onto separate clusters of machines.

Moreover, if you're doing any amount of anti-spam processing or 
anti-virus scanning, then you'll probably want to run multiple 
different instances of your MTA on your machines.  The primary 
instance would be running on port 25 on all interfaces, with all 
scanning intact.  The secondary instance would be listening to some 
other port only on the loopback (127.0.0.1) interface, and would be 
used exclusively for outbound e-mail from that server.  You would 
want to make sure that all output from Mailman was directed at this 
second instance of your MTA, so that you don't go through all that 
scanning a second time, for all outbound mail as well as all your 
inbound mail.  On this second instance, you also generally want to 
remove any kind of resource limiting that you may have in place, 
because you have presumably done all that sort of stuff on the 
primary instance.

IIRC, these issues are discussed in the FAQ under the respective 
"performance tuning" sections, but I may be wrong.  If so, please let 
me know I'll try to update the relevant FAQ entry to be more 
correct/up-to-date.


Even after you've done all of this, there is still the chance that 
your MTA may run out of available connections.  If that happens, I 
don't see any other way to resolve this issue than to monitor the 
server(s) closely (using tools like rrdtool, munin, bb4, nagios, 
etc...), and to use mailmanctl to restart mailman itself and any 
stalled queue runners.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Aug  9 07:42:40 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 00:42:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Stalls for Outgoing Emalis
In-Reply-To: <p06200711c0ff172930cf@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <000201c6bb3b$51731940$c90a0a0a@thoughtworthy.internal>
	<p0620070bc0fef61f724d@[10.0.1.210]>
	<007c01c6bb6c$eee5af90$980b0a0a@thoughtworthy.internal>
	<p06200711c0ff172930cf@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <p06200713c0ff19fedaca@[10.0.1.210]>

At 11:47 PM -0500 2006-08-08, Brad Knowles wrote:

>  Moreover, if you're doing any amount of anti-spam processing or
>  anti-virus scanning, then you'll probably want to run multiple
>  different instances of your MTA on your machines.  The primary
>  instance would be running on port 25 on all interfaces, with all
>  scanning intact.  The secondary instance would be listening to
>  some other port only on the loopback (127.0.0.1) interface, and
>  would be used exclusively for outbound e-mail from that server.

Sorry, I should have been a little more clear -- this second instance 
does not do any scanning of any sort, and has all checks turned off 
for things like looking at the reverse DNS for the incoming 
connections, etc....  In other words, the one and only thing it is 
good at is accepting mail as quickly as possible from other programs 
on the system, and then working to deliver that as quickly as 
possible to the remote recipients.

By the time a mail message reaches this second instance of your MTA, 
all anti-spam processing and anti-virus scanning, etc... should 
already have been done on input, and there shouldn't be anything else 
to scan for on output.  That's why it can be tuned for maximum 
acceptance speed.


In addition, if you're running a really large mailing list system, 
you will want to off-load all outgoing e-mail on a cluster of 
secondary machines at your site (or maybe provided by your ISP), so 
that your mailing list server can dump things onto other systems as 
quickly as possible.  In that case, you will probably also want to 
pre-process all the incoming messages on a separate cluster of 
machines, so that the only thing the mailing list server has to worry 
about is accepting mail messages from the front-end inbound mail 
servers, handling web user interface interaction with the 
subscribers, moderators, and list owners, and transmitting approved 
messages as quickly as possible to the cluster of outbound mail 
handlers.  Except for the web interaction stuff, pretty much all 
interaction with the outside world is handled by other machines.

You can push this even further, by setting up a reverse-proxy system 
in front of the web user interface, and the next step would be to 
completely isolate the back-end mail handling facilities on a 
completely separate machine, which shares the /usr/local/mailman 
directory structure (or wherever your OS puts the Mailman files) via 
NFS to one or more front-end servers.


Believe me, you can scale this thing to amazing heights, if you split 
the functionality correctly onto separate clusters of machines.  It 
does take some knowledge of how to build and configure 
higher-performance web and mail clusters, but that's not too hard to 
come by -- we've put as much information as we can into the FAQs, and 
if there's anything not already covered there, we can try to put in 
some more.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From jmaurin at jonis.com.br  Wed Aug  9 13:36:07 2006
From: jmaurin at jonis.com.br (Jonis Maurin Ceara)
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 08:36:07 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unknow address after creating list
Message-ID: <44D9C8A7.9050807@jonis.com.br>

Hi

I have a new setup of mailman but i'm getting some errors.
After create a new list, i try to send any e-mail (request, subscribe, 
etc...) but i get an error message saying that user doesn't exist.
Aug  9 08:29:47 toyota postfix/virtual[23564]: 2FAD8E7B01: 
to=<teste-request at mouralacerda.edu.br>, relay=virtual, delay=10, 
status=bounced (unknown user: "teste-request at mouralacerda.edu.br")

My mm_cfg.py:
MTA = 'Postfix'
POSTFIX_ALIAS_CMD = '/usr/sbin/postalias'
POSTFIX_MAP_CMD = '/usr/sbin/postmap'
POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['mouralacerda.edu.br']
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'mouralacerda.edu.br'
DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'listas.mouralacerda.edu.br'
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

my main.cf of postfix:
(...)
alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases
local_destination_recipient_limit = 1
local_recipient_maps = unix:passwd.byname $alias_database
(...)
virtual_mailbox_base = /var/mail/virtual
virtual_mailbox_limit = 0
virtual_mailbox_domains = hash:/etc/postfix/vhcs2/domains
virtual_mailbox_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/vhcs2/mailboxes

virtual_alias_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/vhcs2/aliases,
                     hash:/usr/local/mailman/data/virtual-mailman

virtual_minimum_uid = 1001
virtual_uid_maps = static:1001
virtual_gid_maps = static:8
(...)

my virtual-mailman file:
# LOOP ADDRESSES START
mailman-loop at mouralacerda.edu.br        mailman-loop
# LOOP ADDRESSES END

# STANZA START: teste
# CREATED: Tue Aug  8 14:03:19 2006
teste at mouralacerda.edu.br              teste
teste-admin at mouralacerda.edu.br        teste-admin
teste-bounces at mouralacerda.edu.br      teste-bounces
teste-confirm at mouralacerda.edu.br      teste-confirm
teste-join at mouralacerda.edu.br         teste-join
teste-leave at mouralacerda.edu.br        teste-leave
teste-owner at mouralacerda.edu.br        teste-owner
teste-request at mouralacerda.edu.br      teste-request
teste-subscribe at mouralacerda.edu.br    teste-subscribe
teste-unsubscribe at mouralacerda.edu.br  teste-unsubscribe
# STANZA END: teste


what's wrong now? i can't find :(

Everything (except mailman) is working fine.





From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Aug  9 14:33:43 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 07:33:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moderators not being notified of pending posts
In-Reply-To: <5BA6B3FB35CF17499BE4407C22EF691B3A60CC@snowyhydro.com.au>
References: <5BA6B3FB35CF17499BE4407C22EF691B3A60CC@snowyhydro.com.au>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00608090533j52815d21nf607c501525f4844@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/8/06, Clayton Mic <Mic.Clayton at snowyhydro.com.au> wrote:
> After recently setting our list to only accept List Member postings in
> an effort to reduce spamming we had to deal with we lost the moderators
> of the list being notified that there are pending posts.
My guess would be that you set default_nonmember_action to Reject or
Discard, rather than Hold.

> I don't have access to the command line areas of Mailman as we go
> through a third party ISP. We make alterations to our Mailman settings
> through the front end of Mailman.

...

> Thanks for any tips or suggestions that I can forward to my ISP.

You can have them check the appropriate 'vette' log to see why
messages aren't being held.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From rachel at musango.ca  Wed Aug  9 17:45:31 2006
From: rachel at musango.ca (Rachel Assuncao)
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:45:31 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] having problems with a new subscriber
Message-ID: <004001c6bbca$d9a7f990$6600a8c0@Musango>

Hello,

 

I just joined this group, and searched the archives to see if I could find
some help but nothing came up.  We began using Mailman a couple of weeks ago
after a service we were using went belly up.  So far, I have to say I love
it!

 

When we switched from the old list serve (Smartgroups) to the shiny new
Mailman list serve, we automatically subscribed all of our existing members
so that we wouldn't lose anyone.  One of these existing subscribers is
having a problem, and I am hoping that someone out there might be able to
help me to solve it.

 

Here's the situation.  When we did the switch over to the new list, the
member was added to the list, but for some reason isn't receiving emails.  I
checked her subscription and everything appeared to be fine.  One thing that
I thought might be the issue was that she was listed in the list management
as having an email address that was all in lower case letters (a made up
address, for example, would be newlist at genuinecontact.info).  However, her
email address when she created it was done all in upper case (i.e.
NEWLIST at genuinecontact.info) and I didn't know if that would make a
difference.  So, I unsubscribed her from the lists, and then sent her an
invitation to join the list with her upper case email address.  She never
received the invitations to either list.  For some reason nothing from our
list is getting through to her.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions about what might be happening here or how
to fix it?

 

Thank you!

Rachel Assuncao

 

We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of
life is when men are afraid of the light.

~ Plato

 



From ki at knifecenter.com  Wed Aug  9 19:30:07 2006
From: ki at knifecenter.com (Ki Song)
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 13:30:07 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ContentType is changed from text/html to
	multipart/mixed
Message-ID: <C0FF93DE.2DB50%ki@knifecenter.com>

For some reason, even though I formatted my message as content-type
text/html, mailman changes the content-type to multipart/mixed.

I checked the content filtering settings and nothing there that I can see
changes the content type. The only one I see is an option to change from
text/html to text/plain (which is not turned on).

Does anyone know how to keep the content-type as text/html?

Regards,
Ki



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Aug  9 19:35:48 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 12:35:48 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ContentType is changed from text/html to
 multipart/mixed
In-Reply-To: <C0FF93DE.2DB50%ki@knifecenter.com>
References: <C0FF93DE.2DB50%ki@knifecenter.com>
Message-ID: <p06240503c0ffcd02359f@[10.0.1.210]>

At 1:30 PM -0400 2006-08-09, Ki Song wrote:

>  I checked the content filtering settings and nothing there that I can see
>  changes the content type. The only one I see is an option to change from
>  text/html to text/plain (which is not turned on).
>
>  Does anyone know how to keep the content-type as text/html?

You probably have a footer for the list that is being attached as a 
separate MIME bodypart type, thus causing the text/html part to be 
encapsulated in a multipart/mixed type that includes a text/html part 
and a text/plain part.

This sort of stuff should hopefully have been made clear if you had 
searched the FAQ for your question.  If not, please let us know which 
FAQ entries you had read before posting this message, and if they are 
relevant to this issue we will see if we can get them 
corrected/updated to be more useful.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From ki at knifecenter.com  Wed Aug  9 19:44:56 2006
From: ki at knifecenter.com (Ki Song)
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 13:44:56 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ContentType is changed from text/html to
	multipart/mixed
In-Reply-To: <p06240503c0ffcd02359f@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <C0FF9758.2DB7D%ki@knifecenter.com>

> At 1:30 PM -0400 2006-08-09, Ki Song wrote:
> 
>> I checked the content filtering settings and nothing there that I can see
>> changes the content type. The only one I see is an option to change from
>> text/html to text/plain (which is not turned on).
>> 
>> Does anyone know how to keep the content-type as text/html?
> 
> You probably have a footer for the list that is being attached as a
> separate MIME bodypart type, thus causing the text/html part to be
> encapsulated in a multipart/mixed type that includes a text/html part
> and a text/plain part.
> 
> This sort of stuff should hopefully have been made clear if you had
> searched the FAQ for your question.  If not, please let us know which
> FAQ entries you had read before posting this message, and if they are
> relevant to this issue we will see if we can get them
> corrected/updated to be more useful.
> 

That was it. I got rid of the footer and all is well now.

:-)



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Wed Aug  9 19:46:20 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 10:46:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] ContentType is changed from text/html to
 multipart/mixed
In-Reply-To: <C0FF93DE.2DB50%ki@knifecenter.com>
References: <C0FF93DE.2DB50%ki@knifecenter.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060809104420.057d92e8@crimson-dragon.com>

Ki Song sent the message below at 10:30 8/9/2006:
>For some reason, even though I formatted my message as content-type
>text/html, mailman changes the content-type to multipart/mixed.
>
>I checked the content filtering settings and nothing there that I can see
>changes the content type. The only one I see is an option to change from
>text/html to text/plain (which is not turned on).
>
>Does anyone know how to keep the content-type as text/html?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

It's your MUA doing this and it is the right thing for it to do.

When you create an HTML e-mail, your MUA should create a 
multipart\mixed message with at least a text\plain part and a 
text\html part. This is done to be nice to people who prefer to not 
receive HTML e-mail among other reasons.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From Jean.Bausch at fujitsu-siemens.com  Thu Aug 10 12:03:16 2006
From: Jean.Bausch at fujitsu-siemens.com (Bausch, Jean)
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:03:16 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Encoding scrubbed attachment
Message-ID: <DE26E293539224499409D3E333E3367F04474EAA@ABGEX02E.abg.fsc.net>

Hi,

I am running Mailman 2.1.8 on a Solaris system and I have activated 
scrub_nondigest for three lists - but the attachments can only be 
correctly viewed for one of them.

When sending a mail with an attached .jpg, two of the lists 
generate an encoded attachment leading to 
- the display of something like
/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB
AQEB
AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/2wBDAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB
AQEB
AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/wAARCAHCAl4D
ASIA
when the URL is used in IE
- the display of a page containing only the URL with Firefox.

The third list stores an attachment which can be correctly viewed with
any browser.


I have compared the stored attachments and found that in the first case
the 
attachment contains only printable text:

od -xc attachment.jpg | head
0000000    392f    2f6a    4134    5141    6b53    4a5a    6752    4241
           /   9   j   /   4   A   A   Q   S   k   Z   J   R   g   A   B
0000020    5141    4141    5141    4241    4141    2f44    7732    4442
           A   Q   A   A   A   Q   A   B   A   A   D   /   2   w   B   D
0000040    4141    4245    5141    4245    5141    4245    5141    4245
           A   A   E   B   A   Q   E   B   A   Q   E   B   A   Q   E   B
0000060    5141    4245    5141    4245    5141    4245    5141    4245
           A   Q   E   B   A   Q   E   B   A   Q   E   B   A   Q   E   B
0000100    5141    4245    5141    4245    5141    4245    410a    4551
           A   Q   E   B   A   Q   E   B   A   Q   E   B  \n   A   Q   E

whereas the same command for the correctly working attachment gives the
following:

 od -xc attachment.jpg | head
0000000    d8ff    e0ff    1000    464a    4649    0100    0001    0100
         377 330 377 340  \0 020   J   F   I   F  \0 001 001  \0  \0 001
0000020    0100    0000    dbff    4300    0100    0101    0101    0101
          \0 001  \0  \0 377 333  \0   C  \0 001 001 001 001 001 001 001
0000040    0101    0101    0101    0101    0101    0101    0101    0101
         001 001 001 001 001 001 001 001 001 001 001 001 001 001 001 001
*
0000120    0101    0101    0101    0101    ff01    00db    0143    0101
         001 001 001 001 001 001 001 001 001 377 333  \0   C 001 001 001
0000140    0101    0101    0101    0101    0101    0101    0101    0101

The .jpg file was the same in all the experiments, and I can't find any
difference in the list configurations which could explain this
behaviour.

The only difference between the lists that I can think of is that the
third
has been created after my update to Mailman 2.1.8, the other two are
much
older.

Thanks for helping,

        Jean Bausch


From Hannu.Niemi at kuntaliitto.fi  Thu Aug 10 19:01:44 2006
From: Hannu.Niemi at kuntaliitto.fi (Niemi Hannu)
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:01:44 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with postfix: command died with status 1
Message-ID: <C262B8ECE515D348BF758C93F12F6F76015D8AAC@KLMAIL.ad.kuntaliitto.fi>

Hello
 
I have just installed Mailman 2.1.8 on an OpenSuSE 10.1 running on AMD64 system.
 
I made the installation through YAST and it comes directly from the DVD downloaded from OpenSuSE site.
 
The installation itself went quite easily and through the web interface I was able to make a new list and even got the email saying so.
 
But (isn't there always a BUT?) then the problems started. When I try to send email to the list the postfix gives the following problem:
 
< apps.rbm-toolbox.net #5.0.0 X-Postfix; Command died with status 1: "/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post testplk-l"> 
 
In the mail log I also get a line:
fatal: execvp /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman: Operation not permitted
 
I have digged quite a lot of net and found out that others have had the same problem, but either there's no solution given or the solutions don't help.
 
Though this is a new installation, I have been running mailman on other servers and never earlier bumped into this kind of problem.
 
I will be providing more information if needed.
 
Looking for your help
 
Hannu Niemi
 
 


From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Thu Aug 10 19:48:27 2006
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 19:48:27 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with postfix: command died with status 1
In-Reply-To: <C262B8ECE515D348BF758C93F12F6F76015D8AAC@KLMAIL.ad.kuntaliitto.fi>
References: <C262B8ECE515D348BF758C93F12F6F76015D8AAC@KLMAIL.ad.kuntaliitto.fi>
Message-ID: <20060810174827.GB12527@charite.de>

* Niemi Hannu <Hannu.Niemi at kuntaliitto.fi>:
> Hello
>  
> I have just installed Mailman 2.1.8 on an OpenSuSE 10.1 running on AMD64 system.
>  
> I made the installation through YAST and it comes directly from the DVD downloaded from OpenSuSE site.
>  
> The installation itself went quite easily and through the web interface I was able to make a new list and even got the email saying so.
>  
> But (isn't there always a BUT?) then the problems started. When I try to send email to the list the postfix gives the following problem:
>  
> < apps.rbm-toolbox.net #5.0.0 X-Postfix; Command died with status 1: "/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post testplk-l"> 
>  
> In the mail log I also get a line:
> fatal: execvp /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman: Operation not permitted

Try disabling apparmor

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt (i.A. des IT-Zentrums)         Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de
Charite - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin            Tel.  +49 (0)30-450 570-155
Gemeinsame Einrichtung von FU- und HU-Berlin    Fax.  +49 (0)30-450 570-962
IT-Zentrum Standort CBF                 send no mail to spamtrap at charite.de


From parmor at gravity.phys.uwm.edu  Thu Aug 10 22:18:40 2006
From: parmor at gravity.phys.uwm.edu (Paul Armor)
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:18:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Strange behaviour after a file system filled up...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0608101434320.22208@gannon.phys.uwm.edu>

Hi,
we had a problem a couple of weeks ago, and occasionally see some 
lingering side effects.

This is regarding mailman-2.0.13.

The file system that houses all of our mailman install filled up (both 
scripts and data).  We cleaned up the fs, and things seemed to keep 
plugging along.

I. Except, that I occasionally see I get email warnings of:

Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "/var/mailman/cron/checkdbs", line 92, in ?
     main()
   File "/var/mailman/cron/checkdbs", line 43, in main
     count = mlist.NumRequestsPending()
   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 96, in NumRequestsPending
     self.__opendb()
   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 69, in __opendb
     self.__db = marshal.load(fp)
EOFError: EOF read where object expected

I don't THINK I see these every day...


II. I find a LOT of .lock files in mailman/locks, all from during the time 
that the fs was full, most are 0 length files, a few contain the full path 
to and the name of the lockfile.



Are the presense of the lock files related to the pending-request checkdbs 
cron errors?

How can I clean this up?  I've poked around the archives here a bit, and 
google'd this, but can't seem to find an answer...

Thanks in advance!

Cheers,
Paul



From md6969 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 10 23:49:08 2006
From: md6969 at gmail.com (Martin Dennett (Gmail))
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 22:49:08 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running Mailman software
Message-ID: <44DBA9D4.4030308@gmail.com>

Hi

After having had 2 hosts for my mailing list in the last 3 months and 
now being told that my list is "too big" for the host we currently use 
(2000 members, approx ? of whom don't actually receive any mail, just 
choosing to read on the web, and half of those left being on digest), I 
am seriously considering hosting the list myself. What I would like to 
know, from those that have done it and are currently doing it, are the 
positives and negatives of such a situation. If I choose to forge ahead 
with this (and with other such alternatives as Yahoo & Googlegroups, 
it's a definite possibility), I'd need *real* dummy instructions on how 
to go about this.

Comments please.

Rgds

Martin Dennett


From kevin.mcgrail at thoughtworthy.com  Thu Aug 10 23:54:22 2006
From: kevin.mcgrail at thoughtworthy.com (Kevin A. McGrail)
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:54:22 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running Mailman software
References: <44DBA9D4.4030308@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c6bcc7$89c68380$c90a0a0a@thoughtworthy.internal>

Are you currently running a mail server at all because the nuances with 
doing so are not easy?  For example, if you aren't familiar with 
postmaster.aol.com and you have a substantial address base for @AOL.COM, you 
will notice that the rules are onerous for handling one list with 2000 
members.

Mailman just expands the issues beyond "normal" mailservers.

Regards,
KAM

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Martin Dennett (Gmail)" <md6969 at gmail.com>
To: <mailman-users at python.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 5:49 PM
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running Mailman software


Hi

After having had 2 hosts for my mailing list in the last 3 months and
now being told that my list is "too big" for the host we currently use
(2000 members, approx ? of whom don't actually receive any mail, just
choosing to read on the web, and half of those left being on digest), I
am seriously considering hosting the list myself. What I would like to
know, from those that have done it and are currently doing it, are the
positives and negatives of such a situation. If I choose to forge ahead
with this (and with other such alternatives as Yahoo & Googlegroups,
it's a definite possibility), I'd need *real* dummy instructions on how
to go about this.




From ldb at freestandards.org  Fri Aug 11 03:59:07 2006
From: ldb at freestandards.org (Lawrence Bowie)
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 21:59:07 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Weird again!!
Message-ID: <44DBE46B.1080900@freestandards.org>

One of my lists is discarding messages for some reason.
THe vette file looks like the following ..


Aug 10 18:52:42 2006 (5414) Message discarded, msgid: <44DBE2CD.1080108 at gmail.com>
Aug 10 18:55:43 2006 (5414) Message discarded, msgid: <44DBE37A.70203 at example.org>


I am subscribed to the list. I suspect someone reset something
or set something I do not know about but I cannot find it.

ANy ideas?

LDB



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Aug 11 02:58:39 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 19:58:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Running Mailman software
In-Reply-To: <44DBA9D4.4030308@gmail.com>
References: <44DBA9D4.4030308@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0624050bc10185f2d297@[10.0.1.210]>

At 10:49 PM +0100 2006-08-10, Martin Dennett (Gmail) wrote:

>  After having had 2 hosts for my mailing list in the last 3 months and
>  now being told that my list is "too big" for the host we currently use
>  (2000 members, approx ? of whom don't actually receive any mail, just
>  choosing to read on the web, and half of those left being on digest), I
>  am seriously considering hosting the list myself. What I would like to
>  know, from those that have done it and are currently doing it, are the
>  positives and negatives of such a situation. If I choose to forge ahead
>  with this (and with other such alternatives as Yahoo & Googlegroups,
>  it's a definite possibility), I'd need *real* dummy instructions on how
>  to go about this.

Running your own mail server is a non-trivial task.  Go look at the 
FAQ and documentation at sendmail.org or postfix.org to get an idea 
of the level of complexity involved in that process.

Adding a mailing list server on top of that is also a non-trivial 
task.  Again, go look at the documentation and FAQ at 
<http://www.list.org/docs.html> and 
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=index>, respectively.


First thing I'd recommend is for you to take a look at getting a 
better list hosting facility, starting with the information in 
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.017.htp>. 
 From there you should have a better idea if you really want to do 
this yourself on your own machine, or if you want to use hosting 
facilities from somewhere else.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From ldb at freestandards.org  Fri Aug 11 04:33:16 2006
From: ldb at freestandards.org (Lawrence Bowie)
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 22:33:16 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Weird again!!
In-Reply-To: <44DBE46B.1080900@freestandards.org>
References: <44DBE46B.1080900@freestandards.org>
Message-ID: <44DBEC6C.6090706@freestandards.org>

Lawrence Bowie wrote:
> One of my lists is discarding messages for some reason.
> THe vette file looks like the following ..
> 
> 
> Aug 10 18:52:42 2006 (5414) Message discarded, msgid: <44DBE2CD.1080108 at gmail.com>
> Aug 10 18:55:43 2006 (5414) Message discarded, msgid: <44DBE37A.70203 at example.org>
> 
> 
> I am subscribed to the list. I suspect someone reset something
> or set something I do not know about but I cannot find it.
> 
> ANy ideas?
> 
> LDB
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/ldb%40freestandards.org
> 
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
> 
> 

Found it!! A spam rule ....

LDB



From Hannu.Niemi at kuntaliitto.fi  Fri Aug 11 06:04:16 2006
From: Hannu.Niemi at kuntaliitto.fi (Niemi Hannu)
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:04:16 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with postfix: command died with status 1
Message-ID: <C262B8ECE515D348BF758C93F12F6F760379E0F4@KLMAIL.ad.kuntaliitto.fi>


>> < apps.rbm-toolbox.net #5.0.0 X-Postfix; Command died with status 1:
>"/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post testplk-l"> 
>>  
>> In the mail log I also get a line:
>> fatal: execvp /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman: Operation not permitted

> Try disabling apparmor



That did it :) Thank you very much Ralf

Best regards

Hannu Niemi



From Hannu.Niemi at kuntaliitto.fi  Fri Aug 11 06:58:14 2006
From: Hannu.Niemi at kuntaliitto.fi (Niemi Hannu)
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:58:14 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem with postfix: command died with status 1
Message-ID: <C262B8ECE515D348BF758C93F12F6F760379E11C@KLMAIL.ad.kuntaliitto.fi>


>>> Try disabling apparmor

>That did it :) Thank you very much Ralf

Well, now to think about it...any pointers how to change apparmor
profiles to allow this functionality while apparmor is running? ;)

Regards

hannu


From day7pettersens at gmail.com  Fri Aug 11 07:42:29 2006
From: day7pettersens at gmail.com (Craig Pettersen)
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 00:42:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman causing strange slowdown in SMTP
In-Reply-To: <6e6f44850608092249w52ff792avb445b5a592b65e2c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e6f44850608021632g42ad59c6we128bab76caf8439@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC17402006080217244101711bac0ed4@msapiro>
	<6e6f44850608092249w52ff792avb445b5a592b65e2c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6e6f44850608102242w5e41da20yf885a4c6eaefd0dd@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the response.  The slow down has continued and nothing I've tried
has helped.  I answer the questions put to me in context below.  Any further
ideas would be greatly appreciated.


>>Hi,
> >>  I have a mailman installation running on our qmail server that is
> involved in a >>slowdown in SMTP for the designated SMTPHOST in mm_cfg.py.
> I first noticed >>that the messages for the list go out very slowly...about
> 15 seconds per >>message.  I saw this in the mailman smtp log, and then I
> saw it in the the qmail >>smtp log as well, so I figured it was a problem
> with qmail.  As I looked through the >>qmail logs, I saw that all messages
> that connected to smtp via 127.0.0.1 were >>slow, averaging more than 15
> seconds, while those that connected from >>somewhere else were all a
> fraction of a second.  I discovered that if I changed >>SMTPHOST to our
> public IP in mm_cfg.py, any messages (from the list or >>elsewhere) using it
> would slow down as well, and any messages connecting via >>127.0.0.1<http://127.0.0.1/>returned to normal speed.  If I shut down mailman using mailmanctl >>stop,
> speed was normal for both localhost or the public IP, whichever had been
> >>used as mailman's SMTPHOST at the time returning to mormal speed.  That
> >>verified that mailman is directly involved in the slowdown in smtp.  If I
> telnet to the >>smtp and manually send a message, the hangup point is after
> entering 'data' - ie:
>
> >>helo test.com
> >>250 ok
>
> >>mail from: test.com
> >>250 ok
> >>rcpt to: <a valid email>
> >>250 ok
> >>data
> <-------after entering 'data' there is a 15 second + wait if mailman is running
>
> >>354 ok
> >>etc...
>
>
>
>
>
> >>This mailman installation serves only one list, an announcement only
> > list,
> > >>of about 35,000 members, with over 10,000 disabled due to bounces that
> > send
> > >>once every 2 weeks or so. It invariably sends
> > >>several hundred to a thousand messages individually at the
> > +/-15sec./message
> > >>rate, then a big bulk mailing to most subscribers that's taking about
> > 3000
> > >>seconds for around 23,000, then a few score more of individual
> > messages
> > >>before it stops functioning.
> >
> >
> > >What exactly is in Mailman's smtp and smtp-failure logs (the
> > >'individual' messages are not the post).
>
>
>
> I figured out that the individual messages were messages left in
> qfiles/out.  When message are left like that they take around 15 seconds
> each to clear out. So this is reflected in the smtp log.  There are no
> unusual failures in smtp-failure.  It does appear from going through the
> logs that the problem happens when there are messages in qfiles/out.  When
> the list message goes out to the large list, qfiles/out begins to accumulate
> messages.  Those messages are taking the 15 seconds to go out.  Once
> qfiles/out clears up, the time appears to drop to normal, usually less than
> a second.
>
> >>Using ps aux, one can see that all the
> > >>qrunners are there and appear normal, but bin/mailmanctl must be used
> > to
> > >>stop and start things to get them going again.
> >
> >
> > >When things are not going, what is the contents of the queues
> > >(subdirectories of the qfiles/ directory)?
>
>
> So there are hundreds of messages backed up in qfiles/out, again each
> taking about 15 seconds , the vast majority not varying more than a second
> from that.
>
> >>  So my questions are...does anyone have any idea what mailman could be
> > >>doing to interfere with smtp on its SMTPHOST and how to fix it? and
> > does
> > >>anyone have any idea why mailman stops working shortly after sending
> > out the
> > >>big list?
> >
> >
> > >What are your various mm_cfg.py settings if any for the VERP settings
> > >and for SMTP_MAX_RCPTS and SMTP_MAX_SESSIONS_PER_CONNECTION.
> >
> > >You might try
> >
> > >SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 10
> > >SMTP_MAX_SESSIONS_PER_CONNECTION = 1
> >
> > >To see if that makes a difference.
>
>
> I tried these settings and they don't make any difference.  I have no VERP
> settings in mm_cfg.py
>
> >If you restart both Mailman and qmail, does the first subsequent
> > >Mailman SMTP session exhibit the 15 second delay?
>
>
> If  I restart everything, invariably the first mesages is under 2 seconds
>
> >Have you seen
> > >< http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.011.htp
> > >?
>
>
> I have looked at that.  I see that my concurrency for qmail is at 400.
> Mostly the points there seem to be ways to get better performance on a
> normally functioning list.  I would like to try some of them but my main
> problem is this unusual slowdown.  Everything was working fine a few eeks
> ago.  One strange thing about this is that the logs show the time
> consistently at about 50ms above 15 seconds.  Once in awhile I see one that
> is about 50ms about 14 seconds. Here for ex. are the last twelve times-
> 15.058, 15.056, 15.051, 15.060, 15.055, 15.055, 15.051, 15.051, 15.054,
> 15.054, 15.055, 15.051, 14.055.  This is very representive - almost like
> there's a fifteen second timer.  But every 12-15 or so there is one that's
> 14.0** .  Then, to make things interesting, every once in a while (after
> perhaps several hundred or more at 15.0**) there's one or more at a higher
> time - ranging up to about 120 seconds and then back to 15 sec.
>
> Thanks again...would appreciate any further ideas..
> -Craig Pettersen
>
> --
>
>
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net >       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>
>


From phanh at canby.k12.or.us  Fri Aug 11 18:48:21 2006
From: phanh at canby.k12.or.us (Hung Phan)
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:48:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Backup Mailman
Message-ID: <A1548F14-B0EC-48AE-B14C-53C1D30102D3@canby.k12.or.us>

I sorry if this posts here before. Did a search for backing up  
Mailman but most of the post are using scripts. Is there any way to  
backup it manually/using GUI program?






From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Aug 11 19:16:22 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:16:22 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Backup Mailman
In-Reply-To: <A1548F14-B0EC-48AE-B14C-53C1D30102D3@canby.k12.or.us>
References: <A1548F14-B0EC-48AE-B14C-53C1D30102D3@canby.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00608111016j5ff1124bobc891d78c657c48c@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/11/06, Hung Phan <phanh at canby.k12.or.us> wrote:
> I sorry if this posts here before. Did a search for backing up
> Mailman but most of the post are using scripts. Is there any way to
> backup it manually/using GUI program?

I don't believe there's any way to do it through the web interface,
and I don't believe that Mailman officially supports any GUI
frontends.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'manually'- the various shell scripts
provided by the FAQ are about as manual as you can get.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From zurdog at stny.rr.com  Fri Aug 11 21:12:06 2006
From: zurdog at stny.rr.com (Matt Zur)
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:12:06 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] using approved headers
Message-ID: <1646191111.20060811151206@stny.rr.com>

I'm trying to setup an announcement list only.  I got everything
working except for the fact that the FAQ said I should a 'Approved
Header' so that someone can't Spoof the From Address.

However, if I turn Mod on next the user, then the mail gets rejected.

Where do I go to setup so only one sender can email the list and a
password needs to be provided?

  

-- 
Best regards,
 Matt                          mailto:zurdog at stny.rr.com



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Aug 11 21:17:04 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:17:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] using approved headers
In-Reply-To: <1646191111.20060811151206@stny.rr.com>
References: <1646191111.20060811151206@stny.rr.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00608111217k77b92c32l99406e5a5d02ce4f@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/11/06, Matt Zur <zurdog at stny.rr.com> wrote:
> I'm trying to setup an announcement list only.  I got everything
> working except for the fact that the FAQ said I should a 'Approved
> Header' so that someone can't Spoof the From Address.

'Approved header' means you include, as a header, or as the first line
in the email:

Approved: <list (or moderator?) password>

This should bypass any user moderation, and probably emergency
moderation, as well.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From zurdog at stny.rr.com  Fri Aug 11 21:50:56 2006
From: zurdog at stny.rr.com (Matt Zur)
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:50:56 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] using approved headers
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00608111217k77b92c32l99406e5a5d02ce4f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1646191111.20060811151206@stny.rr.com>
	<6fbe3da00608111217k77b92c32l99406e5a5d02ce4f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <12410014775.20060811155056@stny.rr.com>

Hello Patrick,

I understand this... going through this page:
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=all#3.11

I'm confused... should I make the user allowed to send out mail...
check the 'mod' box?  and then use the Approved: ?

What happens is... if I uncheck the mod box, I can send the message
with or without the Approved header.  If I check the mod box, the
message automatically gets rejected regardless if the Approved header
is there or not.  TIA!

-Matt


Friday, August 11, 2006, 3:17:04 PM, you wrote:
> On 8/11/06, Matt Zur <zurdog at stny.rr.com> wrote:
>> I'm trying to setup an announcement list only.  I got everything
>> working except for the fact that the FAQ said I should a 'Approved
>> Header' so that someone can't Spoof the From Address.

> 'Approved header' means you include, as a header, or as the first line
> in the email:

> Approved: <list (or moderator?) password>

> This should bypass any user moderation, and probably emergency
> moderation, as well.



-- 
Best regards,
 Matt                            mailto:zurdog at stny.rr.com



From ki at knifecenter.com  Fri Aug 11 23:20:20 2006
From: ki at knifecenter.com (Ki Song)
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:20:20 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] LIST-JOIN@DOMAIN request sent to
	subscriber-ownder@domain.com
In-Reply-To: <12410014775.20060811155056@stny.rr.com>
Message-ID: <C1026CD4.2E278%ki@knifecenter.com>

Something weird is happening.

When I subscribe to a mailman list by sending an e-mail to
somelist-join at somedomain.com from subscriber at domain.com

it looks like the request is received by the mailing list, but then the
confirmation email is sent to subscriber-owner at domain.com
instead of subscriber at domain.com

Therefore, no user is able to subscribe.

What could be causing this?



From mengland at mengland.net  Sat Aug 12 00:57:13 2006
From: mengland at mengland.net (Matt England)
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:57:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Enable moderated list to always accept some emails?
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060811175513.0623fef0@matts-laptop>

I want to enable a moderated list (that moderates emails from non 
subscribers) to always accept email that comes with a certain header 
attached (in this case, a header appended by http://mail2forum.com/ 
software) even if the sender's address is not subscribed to the email list.

Does GNUMailman some means to do this?

My apologies if this is a FAQ.

-Matt



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sat Aug 12 02:33:26 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:33:26 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman causing strange slowdown in SMTP
In-Reply-To: <6e6f44850608102242w5e41da20yf885a4c6eaefd0dd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6e6f44850608021632g42ad59c6we128bab76caf8439@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC17402006080217244101711bac0ed4@msapiro>
	<6e6f44850608092249w52ff792avb445b5a592b65e2c@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e6f44850608102242w5e41da20yf885a4c6eaefd0dd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240500c102d0e15cd8@[10.0.1.210]>

At 12:42 AM -0500 2006-08-11, Craig Pettersen wrote:

>  Thanks for the response.  The slow down has continued and nothing I've tried
>  has helped.  I answer the questions put to me in context below.  Any further
>  ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Just a guess, but have you stopped the MTA, moved the mail queue 
directory structure aside, re-created the mail queue directory 
structure with the same ownership and permissions, and then restarted 
the MTA?  You'll need to find a way to get all that old mail 
processed, but that would at least get you accepting new mail again 
faster -- until the next time when you have to do this kind of 
process all over again.

The problem here is that mail queue directories get bigger and 
bigger, and never shrink.  So, even if you think you only have a 
hundred files in the queue, if you look in the deep filesystem 
structure there may be space for hundreds of thousands or millions of 
files, dating back from a time when you had a serious backlog in the 
past.  Problem is, when the MTA is trying to create new files in the 
queue directory to represent a given message, the code to create a 
new file has to lock the entire directory structure from all changes 
by any other process, search the entire directory structure to ensure 
that there are no other files by that same name, and only then can it 
actually create the file, unlock the directory, and return the file 
handle to the calling program.

Mailman can suffer from this same problem, too.  Same solution -- 
stop the program, move the queue directory structure aside, recreate 
the queue directory structure with the same ownership and 
permissions, then restart the program.  And you also have to find a 
way to deal with all those old messages sitting in the queue that has 
now been set aside.


The only other thing I can think of is that your MTA is trying to do 
an IDENT query (which usually time out at ten to fifteen seconds), or 
some other sort of anti-spam/anti-virus processing on your outbound 
mail.  If the latter is the case, then you want to turn that off for 
outbound mail from the mailing list, since that should have been 
scanned on input.


Other than that, I'm out of ideas for the moment.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sat Aug 12 03:57:24 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:57:24 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Enable moderated list to always accept some
 emails?
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060811175513.0623fef0@matts-laptop>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060811175513.0623fef0@matts-laptop>
Message-ID: <p06240507c102e432e3dc@[10.0.1.210]>

At 5:57 PM -0500 2006-08-11, Matt England wrote:

>  I want to enable a moderated list (that moderates emails from non
>  subscribers) to always accept email that comes with a certain header
>  attached (in this case, a header appended by http://mail2forum.com/
>  software) even if the sender's address is not subscribed to the email list.
>
>  Does GNUMailman some means to do this?

You could have the mail2forum software add an appropriate "Approved:" 
header to the message, and that would go through.  Alternatively, you 
could configure the mail2forum software to always use the same e-mail 
address when posting to the list, and that e-mail address would be on 
the "whitelist" and allowed to post.

Either solution would work, and you can read more about this sort of 
stuff in the Mailman documentation and the FAQ.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From vanhorn at whidbey.com  Sat Aug 12 04:47:07 2006
From: vanhorn at whidbey.com (G. Armour Van Horn)
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:47:07 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archives and bad timestamps
Message-ID: <44DD412B.20500@whidbey.com>

I've just noticed that one of the lists I'm moderating shows messages 
from next Monday in the private archive. The last message is timestamped 
for 8:08 (Pacific, +0700) on 14 Aug, but was actually distributed by 
Mailman at 08:51 on 11 Aug.

Unfortunately, the archive seems to be ordered by timestamp rather than 
the time the message hit the server, which leads to some odd sequences 
of messages. It also makes me really wonder about messages that have 
timestamps that are not in the current month and where they will be 
archived. Will they show up in the archive for the month they were 
timestamped, when that month is archived?

There doesn't seem to be an option for archive sequence in the admin 
pages, is there an option at the shell level to use the transit time 
instead of the original timestamp? Should there be?

Van



-- 
----------------------------------------------------------
Sign up now for Quotes of the Day, a handful of quotations
on a theme delivered every morning.
Enlightenment! Daily, for free! 
mailto:twisted at whidbey.com?subject=Subscribe_QOTD

For photography, web design, hosting, and maintenance, 
visit Van's home page: http://www.domainvanhorn.com/van/
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tonyakay13 at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 12 07:35:06 2006
From: tonyakay13 at hotmail.com (tonya kay)
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 01:35:06 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] double attachments
Message-ID: <BAY112-F12F16366D34D4CADC39274D3480@phx.gbl>

Hello, I enjoy my Mailman mailinglist hosted on http://tonyakay.com.

Unfortunately, when I attach a photo to my mailing list email, recipients 
receive two of each photograph.  Double attachments.

Why is this happening and how can I stop it?

Tonya Kay




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sat Aug 12 09:13:29 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 02:13:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archives and bad timestamps
In-Reply-To: <44DD412B.20500@whidbey.com>
References: <44DD412B.20500@whidbey.com>
Message-ID: <p06240508c1032a575489@[10.0.1.210]>

At 7:47 PM -0700 2006-08-11, G. Armour Van Horn wrote:

>  I've just noticed that one of the lists I'm moderating shows messages
>  from next Monday in the private archive. The last message is timestamped
>  for 8:08 (Pacific, +0700) on 14 Aug, but was actually distributed by
>  Mailman at 08:51 on 11 Aug.

Yup.  Some users have screwed-up machines where the clock is way off.

>  Unfortunately, the archive seems to be ordered by timestamp rather than
>  the time the message hit the server, which leads to some odd sequences
>  of messages. It also makes me really wonder about messages that have
>  timestamps that are not in the current month and where they will be
>  archived. Will they show up in the archive for the month they were
>  timestamped, when that month is archived?

In the web archive, they will be put into the appropriate month and 
year, according to the "Date:" header on the message.  If that user 
has their clock off in 2063 La-La Land, then their message will show 
up in the archives for 2063.

>  There doesn't seem to be an option for archive sequence in the admin
>  pages, is there an option at the shell level to use the transit time
>  instead of the original timestamp? Should there be?

IIRC, if you select the appropriate option in the mm_cfg.py file, 
what you get by default is a certain time window around what the 
Mailman server thinks is the current date/time, and if the incoming 
message has a "Date:" header outside of that window, then it gets 
"corrected" to be the date/time stamp as of when the server received 
the message.

I thought there was some discussion of this issue in the FAQ, but I'm 
not seeing anything obvious come up.  Searching the archives, I found 
a few articles at 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2003-August/031063.html>, 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2003-May/028679.html>, 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2003-November/032764.html>, 
and 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2004-January/033907.html> 
which are related to this issue.  See also my canned Google search at 
<http://tinyurl.com/jsqsu>.


 From Defaults.py on a 2.1.5 installation that I manage, I have:

# This sets the default `clobber date' policy for the archiver.  When a
# message is to be archived either by Pipermail or an external archiver,
# Mailman can modify the Date: header to be the date the message was received
# instead of the Date: in the original message.  This is useful if you
# typically receive messages with outrageous dates.  Set this to 0 to retain
# the date of the original message, or to 1 to always clobber the date.  Set
# it to 2 to perform `smart overrides' on the date; when the date is outside
# ARCHIVER_ALLOWABLE_SANE_DATE_SKEW (either too early or too late), then the
# received date is substituted instead.
ARCHIVER_CLOBBER_DATE_POLICY = 2
ARCHIVER_ALLOWABLE_SANE_DATE_SKEW = days(15)

Of course, if you decide that you want a different choice, you should 
change this in your mm_cfg.py file, and not in Defaults.py -- the 
former will not get replaced if/when you upgrade your Mailman 
installation, while the latter is guaranteed to get replaced on 
upgrade/reinstall.


Now, one thing I'd like to see is related to that last message I 
referenced above -- the archive date handling process should be able 
to look at the last (most recent) "Received:" header and pull out a 
useful date from there, if the date on the message is too far 
out-of-whack.

Hopefully, this is the kind of thing that we could get relatively 
quickly fixed and incorporated into an upcoming release of Mailman 
2.1.x, because I know that this entire system is being completely 
re-done for Mailman 2.2 and this should no longer be a problem, 
although the author for that code should also be made aware of this 
issue.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sat Aug 12 09:39:42 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 02:39:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Archives and bad timestamps
In-Reply-To: <p06240508c1032a575489@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <44DD412B.20500@whidbey.com> <p06240508c1032a575489@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <p0624050ac10336000ff8@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:13 AM -0500 2006-08-12, Brad Knowles wrote:

>>   There doesn't seem to be an option for archive sequence in the admin
>>   pages, is there an option at the shell level to use the transit time
>>   instead of the original timestamp? Should there be?
>
>  IIRC, if you select the appropriate option in the mm_cfg.py file,
>  what you get by default is a certain time window around what the
>  Mailman server thinks is the current date/time, and if the incoming
>  message has a "Date:" header outside of that window, then it gets
>  "corrected" to be the date/time stamp as of when the server received
>  the message.
>
>  I thought there was some discussion of this issue in the FAQ, but I'm
>  not seeing anything obvious come up.

As a result of this thread, I created the FAQ entry 3.63 for this 
subject.  Please let me know if you have any further questions.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From stephen at yeago.net  Sat Aug 12 21:08:07 2006
From: stephen at yeago.net (Steve)
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:08:07 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Messages not reaching mailman
Message-ID: <f08ff72b0608121208n2ff6e861o7280636900a5aec4@mail.gmail.com>

Fresh install of FC2 RPM. Configured by Plesk software (it simply
added add_virtualhost('myhost') to bottom of mm_cfg.py).

Using SMTPDirect but I am not sure what MTA is being used (and would
like to know how to find out).

Checked the FAQ and qrunner is fine (according to the log).

SMTP log entries only correspond to subscription requests--not mails
to the list.

I have set my DEFAULTS to www.myhost.net and myhost.net.

Switching from SMTPDirect to Sendmail does nothing.

What could be going wrong?

-Steve


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Aug 13 02:52:32 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:52:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Messages not reaching mailman
In-Reply-To: <f08ff72b0608121208n2ff6e861o7280636900a5aec4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f08ff72b0608121208n2ff6e861o7280636900a5aec4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0624050fc10427af2a2c@[10.0.1.210]>

At 3:08 PM -0400 2006-08-12, Steve wrote:

>  Fresh install of FC2 RPM. Configured by Plesk software (it simply
>  added add_virtualhost('myhost') to bottom of mm_cfg.py).
>
>  Using SMTPDirect but I am not sure what MTA is being used (and would
>  like to know how to find out).

If you're using Plesk, then the MTA is probably qmail.  But you could 
try telnet'ing to port 25 on your local machine to find out for sure.

>  SMTP log entries only correspond to subscription requests--not mails
>  to the list.

This sounds suspiciously like the aliases not being set up correctly 
to route mail into Mailman, but I can't be sure.  However, if you're 
using Plesk and their integrated Mailman support, then that shouldn't 
be an issue.

Unfortunately, our ability to help you with problems that might be 
related to Plesk is limited -- see FAQ 6.15.


As for the rest, I don't have any other ideas at the moment.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From mengland at mengland.net  Sun Aug 13 04:15:11 2006
From: mengland at mengland.net (Matt England)
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 21:15:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Enable moderated list to always accept some
 emails?
In-Reply-To: <p06240507c102e432e3dc@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060811175513.0623fef0@matts-laptop>
	<p06240507c102e432e3dc@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060812233539.04b43ec0@matts-laptop>

At 8/11/2006 08:57 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
>At 5:57 PM -0500 2006-08-11, Matt England wrote:
>
>>  I want to enable a moderated list (that moderates emails from non
>>  subscribers) to always accept email that comes with a certain header
>>  attached (in this case, a header appended by http://mail2forum.com/
>>  software) even if the sender's address is not subscribed to the email list.
>>
>>  Does GNUMailman some means to do this?
>
>You could have the mail2forum software add an appropriate "Approved:" 
>header to the message, and that would go through.

Any docs on this "Approved:" header stuff?  I see this email:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2005-October/047126.html

But it seems a little fuzzy on some details, eg, what does "If it finds 
such a line, it checks for the list password" mean?  One has to put the 
list password in the Approved header??  I'm confused.

>Alternatively, you could configure the mail2forum software to always use 
>the same e-mail address when posting to the list, and that e-mail address 
>would be on the "whitelist" and allowed to post.

Can't do that but thanks for the suggestion (it was our first idea, too); 
web posters (from mail2forum) get IDed from their forum email address in 
the From: header.

-Matt



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Aug 13 06:43:29 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:43:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Enable moderated list to always accept some
 emails?
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060812233539.04b43ec0@matts-laptop>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060811175513.0623fef0@matts-laptop>
	<p06240507c102e432e3dc@[10.0.1.210]>
	<6.1.2.0.2.20060812233539.04b43ec0@matts-laptop>
Message-ID: <p06240516c1045db4d343@[10.0.1.210]>

At 9:15 PM -0500 2006-08-12, Matt England wrote:

>>  You could have the mail2forum software add an appropriate "Approved:"
>>  header to the message, and that would go through.
>
>  Any docs on this "Approved:" header stuff?  I see this email:

See FAQ 3.11.  This isn't the primary focus of this particular FAQ 
entry, but it does have instructions on how to use this feature as 
part of the larger subject for this entry.  See also FAQ 3.34.

In general, for any types of questions you may have, you should first 
search the documentation under <http://www.list.org/docs.html>, the 
FAQ, and the archives.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From stephen at yeago.net  Sun Aug 13 10:30:45 2006
From: stephen at yeago.net (Steve)
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 04:30:45 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Messages not reaching mailman
In-Reply-To: <p0624050fc10427af2a2c@10.0.1.210>
References: <f08ff72b0608121208n2ff6e861o7280636900a5aec4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p0624050fc10427af2a2c@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <f08ff72b0608130130u698be7c3yaf98cbfff1ccdaad@mail.gmail.com>

Well, I actually had to fetch and install the RPM to get this thing to
even appear in Plesk, if that makes any diffference. Once it was
installed a Mailman icon appeared in the panel and, on clicking, a
configuration had to run. Did that, and now I'm here.

Did grep etc/aliases and got nothing specific to any list. I'm
guessing that's an issue. I created a 'newlist' via the command line
and still nothing appears in etc/aliases.

Comments welcome. I'm going to spend more time on it tomorrow.

Did telnet localhost 25....

220 myserver.net ESMTP (Ambiguous...)

-Steve

On 8/12/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> At 3:08 PM -0400 2006-08-12, Steve wrote:
>
> >  Fresh install of FC2 RPM. Configured by Plesk software (it simply
> >  added add_virtualhost('myhost') to bottom of mm_cfg.py).
> >
> >  Using SMTPDirect but I am not sure what MTA is being used (and would
> >  like to know how to find out).
>
> If you're using Plesk, then the MTA is probably qmail.  But you could
> try telnet'ing to port 25 on your local machine to find out for sure.
>
> >  SMTP log entries only correspond to subscription requests--not mails
> >  to the list.
>
> This sounds suspiciously like the aliases not being set up correctly
> to route mail into Mailman, but I can't be sure.  However, if you're
> using Plesk and their integrated Mailman support, then that shouldn't
> be an issue.
>
> Unfortunately, our ability to help you with problems that might be
> related to Plesk is limited -- see FAQ 6.15.
>
>
> As for the rest, I don't have any other ideas at the moment.
>
> --
> Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
>
> "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
> temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
>
>      -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
>      Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
>
>   Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.
>


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Aug 13 11:00:05 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 04:00:05 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Messages not reaching mailman
In-Reply-To: <f08ff72b0608130130u698be7c3yaf98cbfff1ccdaad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f08ff72b0608121208n2ff6e861o7280636900a5aec4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p0624050fc10427af2a2c@10.0.1.210>
	<f08ff72b0608130130u698be7c3yaf98cbfff1ccdaad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240518c10499badc48@[10.0.1.210]>

At 4:30 AM -0400 2006-08-13, Steve wrote:

>  Well, I actually had to fetch and install the RPM to get this thing to
>  even appear in Plesk, if that makes any diffference. Once it was
>  installed a Mailman icon appeared in the panel and, on clicking, a
>  configuration had to run. Did that, and now I'm here.

Hmm.  Have you talked to your hosting provider?  I presume that they 
are the people providing the box and the Plesk installation, and I 
would say that they would be your first line of support for all 
questions regarding their systems.  After that, you should try the 
Plesk forums and mailing lists.  If there is anything that truly 
involves just Mailman and nothing else, we might (or might not) be 
able to help you, depending on how Plesk may have modified the 
installation in order to get Mailman to work.

>  Did telnet localhost 25....
>
>  220 myserver.net ESMTP (Ambiguous...)

Once connected, try doing an "EHLO me" and then "HELP".  This will 
usually tell you enough information about the MTA in question.  Even 
if they don't come outright and say what the program is, each program 
will tend to respond to a "HELP" request a little differently, and 
that allows us to have a pretty good idea of what program is running.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From stephen at yeago.net  Sun Aug 13 23:13:44 2006
From: stephen at yeago.net (Steve)
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 17:13:44 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Messages not reaching mailman
In-Reply-To: <p06240519c1052d09165c@10.0.1.210>
References: <f08ff72b0608121208n2ff6e861o7280636900a5aec4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p0624050fc10427af2a2c@10.0.1.210>
	<f08ff72b0608130130u698be7c3yaf98cbfff1ccdaad@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240518c10499badc48@10.0.1.210>
	<f08ff72b0608131144o78480e2cwa2e2323ca41e1281@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240519c1052d09165c@10.0.1.210>
Message-ID: <f08ff72b0608131413y5179addfr4aafb12154af56bf@mail.gmail.com>

I really appreciate your help with this. Its too bad when a lack of
communication/collab between projects turns something as simple as a
mailing list into a two weekend project, but its solved with your
help. Thanks.

Was able to fix this problem and it ended up having nothing to do
with Aliases.

http://faq.sw-soft.com/article_61_942_en.html

Although while I followed those steps I felt like indiana jones
crossing that invisible bridge in the Temple of Doom, it worked
perfectly (for groups created in Plesk).

-Steve

On 8/13/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> At 2:44 PM -0400 2006-08-13, Steve wrote:
>
> >  Let's pretend I never said PLESK.
>
> Problem is, we know that they make modifications to Mailman and the
> way they interact with Mailman, and because they haven't shared those
> modifications with us, we can't support them.  Worse, we don't even
> have a clue as to what many of the modifications are.  They do the
> same for their MTA, qmail.
>
> So, if you were to rip out their support for Mailman, or even their
> ability to *see* Mailman, and do the same for their version of qmail,
> and replace these two packages with the standard source versions
> available from their respective sites, then you'd be likely to be
> able to get at least some useful help.  I mean, there aren't many
> sites using qmail together with Mailman, but there are a few.
>
> Better yet would be to rip out their MTA and replace that with
> something that is better supported with Mailman, such as postfix,
> Exim, or sendmail.
>
> >                                    You were right about the Aliases not
> >  being added. I created the list via the command line and copied the
> >  output to /etc/aliases. Now the situation is only the list
> >  administrator is receiving mails sent by others, and not vice verse.
>
> When you get an all-in-one admin like Plesk, you have to decide if
> you're going to stick with their stuff, or not.  If you are, then you
> need to get all your support from your provider and the people who
> support the software that your provider gives you.
>
> If you're going to go your own way, then you can turn to the vendors
> or support groups of the individual packages that you want to use,
> but then you're not going to be able to get anything in the way of
> support from your provider or the vendor of the all-in-one package.
>
> But this is a case where you can't really effectively eat your cake
> and have it too.
>
>
>
> In this case, you can look at our documentation, FAQs, and archive
> entries relating to Mailman and qmail (and Plesk), but there's going
> to be little more assistance that we can provide.
>
> Maybe there are a few other admins on the list who are in the same
> boat you are (with Plesk, qmail, and Mailman), and you guys can all
> help support each other, and your sub-group would be able to take
> advantage of putting relevant information in our FAQ, etc....
>
> But this is going to have to be a self-supporting sub-group, because
> none of the rest of us have any experience with the kind of stuff
> you're doing.  Certainly, none of the core developers or admins for
> the Mailman project are likely to be able to help.
>
> --
> Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
>
> "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
> temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
>
>      -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
>      Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
>
>   Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.
>


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Aug 13 23:55:41 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:55:41 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Messages not reaching mailman
In-Reply-To: <f08ff72b0608131413y5179addfr4aafb12154af56bf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f08ff72b0608121208n2ff6e861o7280636900a5aec4@mail.gmail.com>
	<p0624050fc10427af2a2c@10.0.1.210>
	<f08ff72b0608130130u698be7c3yaf98cbfff1ccdaad@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240518c10499badc48@10.0.1.210>
	<f08ff72b0608131144o78480e2cwa2e2323ca41e1281@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06240519c1052d09165c@10.0.1.210>
	<f08ff72b0608131413y5179addfr4aafb12154af56bf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0624051bc1054fed438e@[10.0.1.210]>

At 5:13 PM -0400 2006-08-13, Steve wrote:

>  Was able to fix this problem and it ended up having nothing to do
>  with Aliases.
>
>  http://faq.sw-soft.com/article_61_942_en.html

Very cool.  This kind of information should be linked from our FAQ, 
so that hopefully others will be able to find this kind of stuff more 
easily.

>  Although while I followed those steps I felt like indiana jones
>  crossing that invisible bridge in the Temple of Doom, it worked
>  perfectly (for groups created in Plesk).

If you could give us a complete summary of the problem you were 
having and the ultimate solution, we could wrap that up and put that 
in the FAQ.  Or, you could do that yourself -- all the instructions 
for adding a new FAQ entry are contained within the FAQ Wizard itself.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dongsheng.song at gmail.com  Mon Aug 14 04:24:09 2006
From: dongsheng.song at gmail.com (Dongsheng Song)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:24:09 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can I diable auto subscribe/unsubscribe ?
Message-ID: <44DFDEC9.2050205@gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I have a private maillist, maintenance manually. Can I forbid anyone
auto subscribe/unsubscribe ?

Tanks for some help

dongsheng song

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFE397J90pbDJCgbHoRAmQ/AJ94uMSURoqY1Nz3we0zfVD9qm/A7QCdEb9e
uS1Q67UF2K+LYLt6nGKmPl4=
=6XMi
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Aug 14 04:53:51 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:53:51 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can I diable auto subscribe/unsubscribe ?
In-Reply-To: <44DFDEC9.2050205@gmail.com>
References: <44DFDEC9.2050205@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0624051cc1059608b20c@[10.0.1.210]>

At 10:24 AM +0800 2006-08-14, Dongsheng Song wrote:

>  I have a private maillist, maintenance manually. Can I forbid anyone
>  auto subscribe/unsubscribe ?

Sure.  Make subscriptions be "approved", in addition to confirmation. 
I think that you can do the same for unsubscriptions.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Aug 14 04:54:45 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:54:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Messages not reaching mailman
In-Reply-To: <f08ff72b0608131457u3925e165u3a3766ed3022e033@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f08ff72b0608121208n2ff6e861o7280636900a5aec4@mail.gmail.com>	
	<p0624050fc10427af2a2c@10.0.1.210>	
	<f08ff72b0608130130u698be7c3yaf98cbfff1ccdaad@mail.gmail.com>	
	<p06240518c10499badc48@10.0.1.210>	
	<f08ff72b0608131144o78480e2cwa2e2323ca41e1281@mail.gmail.com>	
	<p06240519c1052d09165c@10.0.1.210>	
	<f08ff72b0608131413y5179addfr4aafb12154af56bf@mail.gmail.com>	
	<p0624051bc1054fed438e@10.0.1.210>
	<f08ff72b0608131457u3925e165u3a3766ed3022e033@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0624051dc1059641bf48@[10.0.1.210]>

At 5:57 PM -0400 2006-08-13, Steve wrote:

>  Already done, sir. Thank you for having it available and easily wikiable =).

Cool.  But the real thanks go to Barry and the guys who set up that 
system.  I just try to help keep it up-to-date.

Thanks for your update!

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Mon Aug 14 05:15:21 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:15:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can I diable auto subscribe/unsubscribe ?
In-Reply-To: <44DFDEC9.2050205@gmail.com>
References: <44DFDEC9.2050205@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060813195835.07d7e128@crimson-dragon.com>

Dongsheng Song sent the message below at 07:24 PM 8/13/2006:

>I have a private maillist, maintenance manually. Can I forbid anyone
>auto subscribe/unsubscribe ?
>
>Tanks for some help
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

There is a philosophical issue behind this that you need to really 
think about when making your decision on how to set up a list.

Are you currently using the mailman mailing list software?

If so, you can control these things through the subscribe_policy and 
unsubscribe_policy settings on the Privacy Options page of the web interface.

You can set subscription to require moderator approval or to require 
both approval and confirmation. In your case, I think you would just 
want to set it to approval only without the confirmation.

While you can set the unsubscription policy to require moderator 
approval, I really think that this should only be done in very 
limited circumstances. The only legitimate reason I can think of to 
do so is if this were a list maintained by an employer for the 
purpose of conducting internal business and certain employees were 
required to receive the correspondence from that list as part of 
their job duties.

In any other case I can think of, the unsubscription policy should be 
set to allow users to unsubscribe at will (the "no" setting). Think 
about how you would feel if you were in a position where you joined a 
list and then could not leave it when you wished. It is a rather 
unwelcome and unfriendly thing to do.

I run a few small lists, there are a couple of public ones open to 
anyone who wishes to join and there are a couple of private ones 
requiring moderator approval for subscription. None of those lists 
requires approval to leave, anyone is free to stop receiving mail at 
any time from those lists and this is how it generally ought to be.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From kim.leandersson at chs.chalmers.se  Mon Aug 14 11:54:54 2006
From: kim.leandersson at chs.chalmers.se (Kim Leandersson)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:54:54 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problem with default domain
Message-ID: <78C3380FC84D724287837FD9A8EFC02F0161404B@vera.chs.chalmers.se>

Hi,

We have a server where we host about 70 domains which are administrated
via Plesk (http://www.swsoft.com/en/products/plesk/). One of the most
popular applications used by the customer is mailman. Plesk uses virtual
domains, so every customer gets its own mailman installation and can
create lists.

My problem is that when the server was being installed someone
misspelled the hostname so it was entered as plisk.example.com instead
of plesk.example.com. This error are now corrected, but somewhere in the
mailman installation the plisk entry exists. The problem with this is
that all the monthly password reminders are sent out from
mailman-bounces at plisk.example.com and since many mailserver checks if
the domain exist before delivery the deny the mail. 

I guess that when mailman was first configured on the server it took the
hostname as its default domain from which these administrative mail are
being sent out. My problem is that I can't find where plisk is entered
so I can change it. I've searched for plisk through the files without
any luck so I hope anyone has any hints on where to look.

//kim


From vertesb at index.hu  Mon Aug 14 12:27:16 2006
From: vertesb at index.hu (=?ISO-8859-2?Q?v=E9rtes_bal=E1zs?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:27:16 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] bad owner email address
Message-ID: <20060814102716.11348.qmail@mail05.vipmail.hu>

            Hi!First, sorry for my bad English. I have a problem starting mailman on SuSE 10.0. It was installed with YAST correctly. When i try to create master mailing list with '/usr/lib/mailman/bin/newlist mailman', it said: 'bad owner email address: mailman@ (unused)' . Whats this message mean? How can i eliminate it?Thanks for any responses


--------------------------Hirdet?s-----------------------------

SZERETNE EGY KIV?L? EMAIL C?MET?!
Ne vesz?dj?n m?s free szolg?ltat?kkal!
V?lassza a min?s?get ?s a megbizhat?s?got!
Klikk ide: http://www.vipmail.hu


From cpz at tuunq.com  Mon Aug 14 17:33:52 2006
From: cpz at tuunq.com (Carl Zwanzig)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:33:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problem with default domain
In-Reply-To: <78C3380FC84D724287837FD9A8EFC02F0161404B@vera.chs.chalmers.se>
	from Kim Leandersson at "Aug 14, 2006 11:54:54 am"
Message-ID: <20060814153353.26A4A7AE@mail.tuunq.com>

In a flurry of recycled electrons, Kim Leandersson wrote:

> My problem is that when the server was being installed someone
> misspelled the hostname so it was entered as plisk.example.com instead
> of plesk.example.com. This error are now corrected, but somewhere in the
> mailman installation the plisk entry exists. The problem with this is
> that all the monthly password reminders are sent out from
> mailman-bounces at plisk.example.com and since many mailserver checks if
> the domain exist before delivery the deny the mail. 

The brute force approach is to get into the mailman directory and
"grep -r plisk *.pck". Also check all db and py files.

It's got to show up eventually.

z!


From kim.leandersson at chs.chalmers.se  Mon Aug 14 18:06:42 2006
From: kim.leandersson at chs.chalmers.se (Kim Leandersson)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:06:42 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problem with default domain
In-Reply-To: <20060814153353.26A4A7AE@mail.tuunq.com>
Message-ID: <78C3380FC84D724287837FD9A8EFC02F0161408B@vera.chs.chalmers.se>

> In a flurry of recycled electrons, Kim Leandersson wrote:
> 
> > My problem is that when the server was being installed someone
> > misspelled the hostname so it was entered as 
> plisk.example.com instead
> > of plesk.example.com. This error are now corrected, but 
> somewhere in the
> > mailman installation the plisk entry exists. The problem 
> with this is
> > that all the monthly password reminders are sent out from
> > mailman-bounces at plisk.example.com and since many mailserver 
> checks if
> > the domain exist before delivery the deny the mail. 
> 
> The brute force approach is to get into the mailman directory and
> "grep -r plisk *.pck". Also check all db and py files.
> 
> It's got to show up eventually.
> 
> z!
> 
In the main mailman directory I try this:
[root at plesk mailman]# pwd
/usr/lib/mailman
[root at plesk mailman]# grep -r plisk *
[root at plesk mailman]#

No entry at all.

The in the spool directory
[root at plesk mailman]# pwd
/var/spool/mailman
[root at plesk mailman]# grep -r plisk *

Then I get lots and lots of pck-files in the shunt-directory which all
have headers like this:
Return-Path: <mailman-bounces at plisk.example.com>
Received: (qmail 25327 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2006 05:01:22 +0200
Received: from localhost (HELO plesk.example.com) (127.0.0.1)
  by localhost with SMTP; 1 Jul 2006 05:01:22 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: tarantella.example.com mailing list memberships reminder
From: mailman-owner at tarantella.example.com
To: someone at somewhere.com
X-No-Archive: yes
Message-ID: <mailman.923.1151722840.20628.mailman at plisk.example.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 05:00:40 +0200
Precedence: bulk
X-BeenThere: mailman at plisk.example.com
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5
List-Id: mailman.plisk.example.com

//kim


From twright at tantrumedia.com  Mon Aug 14 18:11:58 2006
From: twright at tantrumedia.com (Tim Wright)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:11:58 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Greetings.
Message-ID: <001901c6bfbc$5fda3290$0202fea9@amd64>

Hi...

I'm new to the list, so please excuse any non-observance
of etiquette from this new member! ;O)

I'll kick off with a question that's probably been answered 
a millions times (I guess?).

I'm operating a mailing list for a logistics company and
I need to allow wildcard e-mail addresses in the sender
filters;

So, in "List of non-member addresses whose postings should
Be automatically accepted" I need to add "*@mydomain.com".

In other words, allow anyone from mydomain.com to post via
the mailing list.

I'm pretty sure it's possible by using something like;

"^[^@]+ at .mydomain.com" but I'm no whizz at Python(!)

Thanks for any help...

Tim Wright.



From phanh at canby.k12.or.us  Mon Aug 14 20:00:08 2006
From: phanh at canby.k12.or.us (Hung Phan)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:00:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] New member confirmation email
Message-ID: <7A73A977-8D3C-4C3F-8D3A-98BA4B7A9B19@canby.k12.or.us>

Hi, all. I've been looking for answer to this mystery problem. My  
mailing list is setup requiring new members to confirm their  
subscriptions along with a welcome message. But the confirmation  
email and welcome message never come. In the Mail Queue (OS 10.4.7),  
they never make it to the queue.

Have anyone run into this problem? What may cause this behavior?
Thank you so much for your help.


From b19141 at britaine.ctd.anl.gov  Mon Aug 14 21:07:45 2006
From: b19141 at britaine.ctd.anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:07:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question About Re-generated Mailing Lists
Message-ID: <200608141907.k7EJ7jIE027385@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>

We have decided to move our majordomo mailing lists to mailman.
We have a number of non-subscription lists - the e-mail lists are
re-generated each evening from an external database.  The persons on
each re-generated list have no say as to their subscriptions to the
list.

With majordomo, we just build the e-mail list in a directory which we
have defined in the /etc/mail/aliases.template file:

     majordomo-zzz-outgoing: :include:filename

Can we automatically re-generate a mailman mailing list?  I know that
I can do Mass Removals and Mass Subscriptions via the web interface,
but I want something that has no manual intervention.

Thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994



From mailman at veggiechinese.net  Mon Aug 14 21:46:01 2006
From: mailman at veggiechinese.net (William Yardley)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:46:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question About Re-generated Mailing Lists
In-Reply-To: <200608141907.k7EJ7jIE027385@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
References: <200608141907.k7EJ7jIE027385@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <20060814194601.GB26773@mitch.veggiechinese.net>

On Mon, Aug 14, 2006 at 02:07:45PM -0500, Barry Finkel wrote:

> We have a number of non-subscription lists - the e-mail lists are
> re-generated each evening from an external database.  The persons on
> each re-generated list have no say as to their subscriptions to the
> list.
> 
> With majordomo, we just build the e-mail list in a directory which we
> have defined in the /etc/mail/aliases.template file:
> 
>      majordomo-zzz-outgoing: :include:filename
> 
> Can we automatically re-generate a mailman mailing list?  I know that
> I can do Mass Removals and Mass Subscriptions via the web interface,
> but I want something that has no manual intervention.

Don't know if this quite meets your requirements, but you can do
$PREFIX/add_members -r somefile listname

(use - as the filename if you want to pass in addresses via stdin
instead of by giving it a filename). It will spit out an error if you
try to add an address that already exists. This might work for you, but
wouldn't deal with removing members too.

use "-w n" to not send a welcome message.

Maybe you could do something like:

$PREFIX/remove_members --all --nouserack --noadminack
$PREFIX/add_members -w n -r somefile listname

w



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Aug 15 02:43:14 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:43:14 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problem with default domain
In-Reply-To: <78C3380FC84D724287837FD9A8EFC02F0161404B@vera.chs.chalmers.se>
References: <78C3380FC84D724287837FD9A8EFC02F0161404B@vera.chs.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <p06240501c106c79c425e@[10.0.1.210]>

At 11:54 AM +0200 2006-08-14, Kim Leandersson wrote:

>  We have a server where we host about 70 domains which are administrated
>  via Plesk (http://www.swsoft.com/en/products/plesk/). One of the most
>  popular applications used by the customer is mailman. Plesk uses virtual
>  domains, so every customer gets its own mailman installation and can
>  create lists.

See FAQ 6.15.  Our ability to help support Plesk is going to be 
limited, because they made a number of modifications to Mailman, and 
they haven't shared those with us.  Your first stop for all support 
questions regarding Plesk should be the service provider from whom 
you have rented or bought your systems.  After that, with all 
questions that are related to Plesk and any Plesk-modified tool (such 
as their version of Mailman), your next stop should be their mailing 
lists, FAQs, documentation, etc....

We'll try to help if we can, but there's going to be a limit to what 
we may be able to do for you.

>  My problem is that when the server was being installed someone
>  misspelled the hostname so it was entered as plisk.example.com instead
>  of plesk.example.com. This error are now corrected, but somewhere in the
>  mailman installation the plisk entry exists. The problem with this is
>  that all the monthly password reminders are sent out from
>  mailman-bounces at plisk.example.com and since many mailserver checks if
>  the domain exist before delivery the deny the mail.

If you were running standard Mailman, I would tell you that you need 
to correct your mm_cfg.py file and run fix_url, and that should 
resolve all your problems.


However, I have no idea what the Plesk people may have done to the 
version of Mailman that they ship, and how their GUI-only tools 
integrate into that environment.

My guess is that there is a Plesk-specific way to modify things like 
this (through their administrative interface), and that if you don't 
make these modifications using their officially approved techniques, 
then you will get into a disconnect situation where Plesk thinks the 
machine's name is one thing and Mailman thinks something else, and 
the end result is far worse than you have today.

Good luck with this issue.  Please let us know what you ended up having to do.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Aug 15 02:49:15 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:49:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Greetings.
In-Reply-To: <001901c6bfbc$5fda3290$0202fea9@amd64>
References: <001901c6bfbc$5fda3290$0202fea9@amd64>
Message-ID: <p06240502c106ca46e233@[10.0.1.210]>

At 5:11 PM +0100 2006-08-14, Tim Wright wrote:

>  I'll kick off with a question that's probably been answered
>  a millions times (I guess?).

It's been a popular one, yes.

>  I'm operating a mailing list for a logistics company and
>  I need to allow wildcard e-mail addresses in the sender
>  filters;

See FAQ 3.33.  However I notice that the current version of this FAQ 
entry doesn't mention the word "wildcard", which I'm assuming is what 
you searched for and did not find.  I will correct that.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Aug 15 02:53:18 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:53:18 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] New member confirmation email
In-Reply-To: <7A73A977-8D3C-4C3F-8D3A-98BA4B7A9B19@canby.k12.or.us>
References: <7A73A977-8D3C-4C3F-8D3A-98BA4B7A9B19@canby.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <p06240503c106cada04d6@[10.0.1.210]>

At 11:00 AM -0700 2006-08-14, Hung Phan wrote:

>  Hi, all. I've been looking for answer to this mystery problem. My
>  mailing list is setup requiring new members to confirm their
>  subscriptions along with a welcome message. But the confirmation
>  email and welcome message never come. In the Mail Queue (OS 10.4.7),
>  they never make it to the queue.

Well, you haven't told us what OS you're running, or what version of 
Mailman, or who provided that.  This can be a big factor, see FAQs 
1.21, 6.11, and 6.15.

In this case, you should first look at your logs, to see if they have 
any useful information.  Then you should consult FAQs 3.14, 1.22, 
1.23, and 1.18.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From twright at tantrumedia.com  Tue Aug 15 11:01:20 2006
From: twright at tantrumedia.com (Tim Wright)
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:01:20 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Greetings.
In-Reply-To: <p06240502c106ca46e233@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <000901c6c049$6183c8d0$0300a8c0@amd64>

You are right... That's exactly what I did.

That answers my question perfectly! ;O)

Many thanks,
Tim W.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Knowles [mailto:brad at stop.mail-abuse.org] 
Sent: 15 August 2006 01:49
To: Tim Wright; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Greetings.


At 5:11 PM +0100 2006-08-14, Tim Wright wrote:

>  I'll kick off with a question that's probably been answered  a 
> millions times (I guess?).

It's been a popular one, yes.

>  I'm operating a mailing list for a logistics company and
>  I need to allow wildcard e-mail addresses in the sender  filters;

See FAQ 3.33.  However I notice that the current version of this FAQ 
entry doesn't mention the word "wildcard", which I'm assuming is what 
you searched for and did not find.  I will correct that.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.





From ken at sunward.org  Tue Aug 15 21:38:40 2006
From: ken at sunward.org (Ken Winter)
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:38:40 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Some basic "How To" questions
Message-ID: <006801c6c0a2$697bbdf0$6603a8c0@kenxp>

Using the Mailman web admin interface, can I / how can I:

 

1.	Delete an entire mailing list?
2.	Clone the entire setup of a list, creating a new list with a
different name but the same configuration?
3.	Rename a list?

 

I looked for these how-tos in the available documentation, but I can't find
it.

 

~ Thanks in advance for your help

~ Ken Winter



From condor2006 at hotmail.co.uk  Tue Aug 15 23:09:08 2006
From: condor2006 at hotmail.co.uk (Dan Zaz)
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:09:08 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Catchall preventing posts reaching mailman
Message-ID: <BAY119-F30B330F5D53B39E69574438D4F0@phx.gbl>

Hi list,

I'm running mailman on Fedora Core 1, with Apache 2.0.51. Mail server is 
sendmail. Wasn't a straight forward install, as the server is compiled with 
SuExec, but it seems to be fine in all but one respect; posts are not 
reaching mailman when I'm using the catchall ( @domain.com). Remove this 
catchall, and posts arrive without problem (however, the people who I'm 
installing this for do require the catchall to remain).

I've added the following in /etc/aliases:

## mailman mailing list
mailman:              "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman post mailman"
mailman-admin:        "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman admin mailman"
mailman-bounces:      "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman bounces mailman"
mailman-confirm:      "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman confirm mailman"
mailman-join:         "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman join mailman"
mailman-leave:        "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman leave mailman"
mailman-owner:        "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman owner mailman"
mailman-request:      "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman request mailman"
mailman-subscribe:    "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe mailman"
mailman-unsubscribe:  "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe mailman"

##My mailing list
My_List:              "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman post My_List"
My_List-admin:        "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman admin My_List"
My_List-bounces:      "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman bounces My_List"
My_List-confirm:      "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman confirm My_List"
My_List-join:         "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman join My_List"
My_List-leave:        "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman leave My_List"
My_List-owner:        "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman owner My_List"
My_List-request:      "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman request My_List"
My_List-subscribe:    "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe My_List"
My_List-unsubscribe:  "|/var/www/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe My_List"

I have run newaliases.

I've also added the following to my virtusertable (/etc/mail/virtusertable):

# mailman aliases
mailman at MyDomain.com mailman
mailman-owner at MyDomain.com   mailman-owner
My_List at MyDomain.com   My_List
My_List-admin at MyDomain.com   My_List-admin
My_List-bounces at MyDomain.com   My_List-bounces
My_List-confirm at MyDomain.com   My_List-confirm
My_List-join at MyDomain.com   My_List-join
My_List-leave at MyDomain.com   My_List-leave
My_List-owner at MyDomain.com   My_List-owner
My_List-request at MyDomain.com   My_List-request
My_List-subscribe at MyDomain.com   My_List-subscribe
My_List-unsubscribe at MyDomain.com   My_List-unsubscribe

The catchall is also listed in the virtusertable, below the mailman entries:

@MyDomain.com capture at MyDomain,com
capture at MyDomain.com capture_at_MyDomain.com

This catchall address is of course also referenced in aliases, where it 
pipes mail to the mailbox.

I also restarted the mail server after making the additions to 
virtusertable.

Does anyone have any ideas what could be going awry? Maybe this is more of a 
sendmail issue than mailman per se, though everything else is working fine. 
Mailman functions fine too, if I remove the catchall! I've read the FAQs and 
Googled this, but as far as I can tell I've taken all the necessary steps; 
it should be working.

TIA,
Dan

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live? Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for free! 
http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb



From andrew.b.watson at nasa.gov  Tue Aug 15 22:24:52 2006
From: andrew.b.watson at nasa.gov (Andrew Watson)
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:24:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] forward_auto_discards not working
Message-ID: <p06230923c107ddd95bb0@[143.232.72.120]>

I am using Mailman 2.1.5.
My list is set to discard posts from non-members.
Because the number of such posts was becoming large, and to suppress 
the notification I received of each discard, I set the Privacy 
Option, in Sender Filters, to forward_auto_discards = No.
I restarted mailman.
In spite of this, I continue to receive a copy of each discarded message.
Any suggestions?

-Andrew



From kim.leandersson at chs.chalmers.se  Wed Aug 16 13:59:38 2006
From: kim.leandersson at chs.chalmers.se (Kim Leandersson)
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 13:59:38 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problem with default domain
In-Reply-To: <p06240501c106c79c425e@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <78C3380FC84D724287837FD9A8EFC02F016140FB@vera.chs.chalmers.se>

> >  We have a server where we host about 70 domains which are 
> administrated
> >  via Plesk (http://www.swsoft.com/en/products/plesk/). One 
> of the most
> >  popular applications used by the customer is mailman. 
> Plesk uses virtual
> >  domains, so every customer gets its own mailman 
> installation and can
> >  create lists.
> 
> See FAQ 6.15.  Our ability to help support Plesk is going to be 
> limited, because they made a number of modifications to Mailman, and 
> they haven't shared those with us.  Your first stop for all support 
> questions regarding Plesk should be the service provider from whom 
> you have rented or bought your systems.  After that, with all 
> questions that are related to Plesk and any Plesk-modified tool (such 
> as their version of Mailman), your next stop should be their mailing 
> lists, FAQs, documentation, etc....
> 
> We'll try to help if we can, but there's going to be a limit to what 
> we may be able to do for you.
> 

Yes, I did read the FAQ before so I knew this. I tried SW-softs plesk
support first (since I am the service provider offering plesk to
customers) but the are not always what you wish for when it comes to
support so I tried this list. I have tried their documentation to but
havent't found any answer to my question there.

> >  My problem is that when the server was being installed someone
> >  misspelled the hostname so it was entered as 
> plisk.example.com instead
> >  of plesk.example.com. This error are now corrected, but 
> somewhere in the
> >  mailman installation the plisk entry exists. The problem 
> with this is
> >  that all the monthly password reminders are sent out from
> >  mailman-bounces at plisk.example.com and since many 
> mailserver checks if
> >  the domain exist before delivery the deny the mail.
> 
> If you were running standard Mailman, I would tell you that you need 
> to correct your mm_cfg.py file and run fix_url, and that should 
> resolve all your problems.
> 

Yes, I have administrated mailman since a couple of years on non-plesk
servers so that was my first thought to. When I didn't find it there i
ran "grep -r plisk *" on the mailman directory without any hit.

> However, I have no idea what the Plesk people may have done to the 
> version of Mailman that they ship, and how their GUI-only tools 
> integrate into that environment.
> 
> My guess is that there is a Plesk-specific way to modify things like 
> this (through their administrative interface), and that if you don't 
> make these modifications using their officially approved techniques, 
> then you will get into a disconnect situation where Plesk thinks the 
> machine's name is one thing and Mailman thinks something else, and 
> the end result is far worse than you have today.
> 
> Good luck with this issue.  Please let us know what you ended 
> up having to do.
> 
As said above I ran "grep -r plisk *" in the mailman directory without
finding any file that contains plisk. I then checked everywhere in the
GUI without finding it.Last I ran "grep -r plisk *" on the whole server.
Except for some pck-files in mailmans shunt-directory the only instance
where plisk were found was in the mysql dump for the DNS. It seems that
somewhere plisk was registered as localhost (together with plesk). I
have now removed the plisk entry in the mysql db so I hope the problem
has gone away. We'll see about that next time the monthly password
reminders are sent out.

//kim


From fabiano.breves at gmail.com  Wed Aug 16 20:01:01 2006
From: fabiano.breves at gmail.com (Fabiano Breves)
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:01:01 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] changing the default e-mail messages.
Message-ID: <1c22506e0608161101x1125568fna242bf03317aeeb6@mail.gmail.com>

Hi ALL,

I'd like to know how to change the text (and maybe later the appearance) of
the default e-mail messages sent to the users when they are subscribing or
unsubscribing to a list.

thanks in advance.

-- 
Fabiano de Carvalho Breves
fabiano.breves at gmail.com


From larryj at gsu.edu  Wed Aug 16 21:46:03 2006
From: larryj at gsu.edu (Larry Johnson)
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:46:03 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] site administration question
Message-ID: <1155757563.22775.20.camel@fitzwarin.gsu.edu>

I'm a solaris/linux sysadmin who's recently taken over the site
administration of a mailman system after the departure of the guy who
set the system up.  We're currently running an older version of mailman 
(2.1.4) but we're in the process of upgrading to 2.1.8 and migrating to
a more substantial machine.

In the meantime we're having serious space issues with the current
machine, and I have a question about the way the messages are stored
here.  In the archive directories under the list name messages seem to
be stored in three places, all by month.  For example we have
2005-October (the directory with the individual messages as html)
2005-October.txt (a complete mbox for the month), and the same file
gzipped up.

First question -- do we really need the zipped up copy, while the
unzipped version is in the directory?  Are there any local settings we
can do to optimize space until we've moved to the new machine?

Larry




From mailman at veggiechinese.net  Wed Aug 16 23:02:58 2006
From: mailman at veggiechinese.net (William Yardley)
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:02:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] site administration question
In-Reply-To: <1155757563.22775.20.camel@fitzwarin.gsu.edu>
References: <1155757563.22775.20.camel@fitzwarin.gsu.edu>
Message-ID: <20060816210258.GB20401@mitch.veggiechinese.net>

On Wed, Aug 16, 2006 at 03:46:03PM -0400, Larry Johnson wrote:
> 
> In the meantime we're having serious space issues with the current
> machine, and I have a question about the way the messages are stored
> here.  In the archive directories under the list name messages seem to
> be stored in three places, all by month.  For example we have
> 2005-October (the directory with the individual messages as html)
> 2005-October.txt (a complete mbox for the month), and the same file
> gzipped up.
> 
> First question -- do we really need the zipped up copy, while the
> unzipped version is in the directory?  Are there any local settings we
> can do to optimize space until we've moved to the new machine?

My understanding is that this copy is just to make it easy for people to
download a compressed archive of the mbox file.

See:
GZIP_ARCHIVE_TXT_FILES = No

in Defaults.py

So you sould see if GZIP_ARCHIVE_TXT_FILES is set in mm_cfg.py.

After disabling that, I think you should just be able to remove the .gz
files.

w



From thomas.stocker at acceleris.ch  Thu Aug 17 15:50:36 2006
From: thomas.stocker at acceleris.ch (Thomas Stocker)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:50:36 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Still having japanese codec problems
Message-ID: <web-2261285@bersier.net>

Hello guys

I still have big troubles compiling mailman 2.1.8 on a 
Solaris 10 06/06 sparc (SunFire V120) box. I tried with 
several Python Versions. SUNWones (SUNWPython / 
SUNWPython-devel v2.3.3), all which are available from 
sunfreeware (2.3.3 / 2.4.2 / 2.4.3) (2.4.3 gives a pythone 
too old message).

I uncommented the jp / korean import things from paths.py, 
which reads as follows (checked after each step):

[snip]

# In a normal interactive Python environment, the 
japanese.pth and korean.pth
# files would be imported automatically.  But because we 
inhibit the importing
# of the site module, we need to be explicit about 
importing these codecs.
#import japanese
# As of KoreanCodecs 2.0.5, you had to do the second 
import to get the Korean
# codecs installed, however leave the first import in 
there in case an upgrade
# changes this.
#import korean
#import korean.aliases
# Arabic and Hebrew (RFC-1556) encoding aliases. 
(temporary solution)
import encodings.aliases
encodings.aliases.aliases.update({
     'iso_8859_6_e': 'iso8859_6',
     'iso_8859_6_i': 'iso8859_6',
     'iso_8859_8_e': 'iso8859_8',
     'iso_8859_8_i': 'iso8859_8',
})
-bash-3.00#

--------------------------



-bash-3.00# make distclean
[snip]

-bash-3.00# ./configure 
--with-python=/usr/local/bin/python
creating cache ./config.cache
checking for --with-python... /usr/local/bin/python
checking Python interpreter... /usr/local/bin/python
checking Python version... 2.3.3
checking that Python has a working distutils... yes
checking for a BSD compatible install... ./install-sh -c
checking whether make sets ${MAKE}... yes
checking for true... /usr/bin/true
checking for --without-gcc... no
checking for gcc... gcc
checking whether the C compiler (gcc  ) works... yes
checking whether the C compiler (gcc  ) is a 
cross-compiler... no
checking whether we are using GNU C... yes
checking whether gcc accepts -g... yes
checking whether #! works in shell scripts... yes
checking for --with-var-prefix... no
checking for --with-permcheck... yes
checking for --with-username... mailman
checking for user name "mailman"... okay
checking for --with-groupname... mailman
checki^C'import site' failed; use -v for traceback
-bash-3.00# ./configure 
--with-python=/usr/local/bin/python
loading cache ./config.cache
checking for --with-python... /usr/local/bin/python
checking Python interpreter... /usr/local/bin/python
checking Python version... 2.3.3
checking that Python has a working distutils... yes
checking for a BSD compatible install... ./install-sh -c
checking whether make sets ${MAKE}... yes
checking for true... /usr/bin/true
checking for --without-gcc... no
checking for gcc... gcc
checking whether the C compiler (gcc  ) works... yes
checking whether the C compiler (gcc  ) is a 
cross-compiler... no
checking whether we are using GNU C... yes
checking whether gcc accepts -g... yes
checking whether #! works in shell scripts... yes
checking for --with-var-prefix... no
checking for --with-permcheck... yes
checking for --with-username... mailman
checking for user name "mailman"... okay
checking for --with-groupname... mailman
checking for group name "mailman"... okay
checking permissions on /usr/local/mailman... okay
checking for mail wrapper group; i.e. --with-mail-gid... 
mailman
checking for CGI wrapper group; i.e. --with-cgi-gid... 
nobody
checking for CGI extensions... no
checking for --with-mailhost... no
checking for --with-urlhost... no
checking for default mail host name... bahamas
checking for default URL host component... bahamas
checking for strerror... yes
checking for setregid... yes
checking for syslog... yes
checking how to run the C preprocessor... gcc -E
checking for ANSI C header files... yes
checking for syslog.h... yes
checking for uid_t in sys/types.h... yes
checking type of array argument to getgroups... gid_t
checking for vsnprintf... yes
updating cache ./config.cache
creating ./config.status
creating misc/paths.py
creating Mailman/Defaults.py
creating Mailman/mm_cfg.py.dist
creating src/Makefile
creating misc/Makefile
creating bin/Makefile
creating Mailman/Makefile
creating Mailman/Cgi/Makefile
creating Mailman/Logging/Makefile
creating Mailman/Archiver/Makefile
creating Mailman/Commands/Makefile
creating Mailman/Handlers/Makefile
creating Mailman/Bouncers/Makefile
creating Mailman/Queue/Makefile
creating Mailman/MTA/Makefile
creating Mailman/Gui/Makefile
creating templates/Makefile
creating cron/Makefile
creating scripts/Makefile
creating messages/Makefile
creating cron/crontab.in
creating misc/mailman
creating Makefile
creating tests/Makefile
creating tests/bounces/Makefile
creating tests/msgs/Makefile
creating build/bin/add_members
creating build/bin/arch
creating build/bin/change_pw
creating build/bin/check_db
creating build/bin/check_perms
creating build/bin/cleanarch
creating build/bin/clone_member
creating build/bin/config_list
creating build/bin/convert.py
creating build/bin/discard
creating build/bin/dumpdb
creating build/bin/find_member
creating build/bin/fix_url.py
creating build/bin/genaliases
creating build/bin/inject
creating build/bin/list_admins
creating build/bin/list_lists
creating build/bin/list_members
creating build/bin/list_owners
creating build/bin/mailmanctl
creating build/bin/mmsitepass
creating build/bin/msgfmt.py
creating build/bin/newlist
creating build/bin/pygettext.py
creating build/bin/qrunner
creating build/bin/remove_members
creating build/bin/reset_pw.py
creating build/bin/rmlist
creating build/bin/show_qfiles
creating build/bin/sync_members
creating build/bin/transcheck
creating build/bin/unshunt
creating build/bin/update
creating build/bin/version
creating build/bin/withlist
creating build/bin/b4b5-archfix
creating build/bin/rb-archfix
creating build/contrib/check_perms_grsecurity.py
creating build/contrib/qmail-to-mailman.py
creating build/contrib/rotatelogs.py
creating build/cron/bumpdigests
creating build/cron/checkdbs
creating build/cron/disabled
creating build/cron/gate_news
creating build/cron/mailpasswds
creating build/cron/nightly_gzip
creating build/cron/senddigests
configuration completed at Thu Aug 17 15:33:36 CEST 2006


-bash-3.00# make
for d in bin cron misc Mailman scripts src templates 
messages tests; \
do \
     (cd $d; make); \
done
for d in Cgi Logging Archiver Handlers Bouncers Queue MTA 
Gui Commands; \
do \
     (cd $d; make); \
done
gcc -c -I. -DPREFIX="\"/usr/local/mailman\"" 
 -DPYTHON="\"/usr/local/bin/python\""  -DHELPFUL -g -O2 -g 
-O2 -DHAVE_STRERROcgcc -c -I. 
-DPREFIX="\"/usr/local/mailman\"" 
 -DPYTHON="\"/usr/local/bin/python\""  -DHELPFUL -g -O2 -g 
-O2 -DHAVE_STRERROcgcc -DSCRIPT="\"admindb\"" -I. 
-DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" -g -O2 -g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 
-DHAVE_SETREGID=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG=1 cgcc 
-DSCRIPT="\"admin\"" -I. -DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" -g -O2 
-g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 -DHAVE_SETREGID=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG=1 
-Dcgcc -DSCRIPT="\"confirm\"" -I. -DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" 
-g -O2 -g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 -DHAVE_SETREGID=1 
-DHAVE_SYSLOG=1 cgcc -DSCRIPT="\"create\"" -I. 
-DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" -g -O2 -g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 
-DHAVE_SETREGID=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG=1 -cgcc 
-DSCRIPT="\"edithtml\"" -I. -DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" -g 
-O2 -g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 -DHAVE_SETREGID=1 
-DHAVE_SYSLOG=1cgcc -DSCRIPT="\"listinfo\"" -I. 
-DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" -g -O2 -g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 
-DHAVE_SETREGID=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG=1cgcc 
-DSCRIPT="\"options\"" -I. -DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" -g -O2 
-g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 -DHAVE_SETREGID=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG=1 
cgcc -DSCRIPT="\"private\"" -I. -DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" 
-g -O2 -g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 -DHAVE_SETREGID=1 
-DHAVE_SYSLOG=1 cgcc -DSCRIPT="\"rmlist\"" -I. 
-DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" -g -O2 -g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 
-DHAVE_SETREGID=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG=1 -cgcc 
-DSCRIPT="\"roster\"" -I. -DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" -g -O2 
-g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 -DHAVE_SETREGID=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG=1 
-cgcc -DSCRIPT="\"subscribe\"" -I. 
-DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" -g -O2 -g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 
-DHAVE_SETREGID=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG=cgcc -I. 
-DMAIL_GROUP="\"mailman\"" -g -O2 -g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 
-DHAVE_SETREGID=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG=1 -DSTDC_HEADERS=1 
-DHAc/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
ca/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo ca/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
cs/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo cs/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
da/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo da/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
de/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo de/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
es/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo es/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
et/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo et/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
eu/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo eu/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
fi/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo fi/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
fr/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo fr/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
hr/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo hr/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
hu/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo hu/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
ia/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo ia/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
it/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo it/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
ja/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo ja/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
ko/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo ko/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
lt/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo lt/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
nl/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo nl/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
no/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo no/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
pl/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo pl/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
pt/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo pt/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
pt_BR/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo pt_BR/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
ro/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo ro/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
ru/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo ru/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
sl/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo sl/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
sr/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo sr/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
sv/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo sv/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
tr/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo tr/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
uk/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo uk/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
zh_CN/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo zh_CN/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
zh_TW/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo zh_TW/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po


-bash-3.00# make install
Creating architecture independent directories...
chmod o-r /usr/local/mailman/archives/private
Creating architecture dependent directories...
for f in mmsitepass newlist rmlist add_members 
 list_members remove_members clone_member update arch 
 sync_members check_d\do \
     .././install-sh -c -m 755 ../build/bin/$f 
/usr/local/mailman/bin; \
done
for f in crontab.in; \
do \
     .././install-sh -c -m 644 $f /usr/local/mailman/cron; 
\
done
for f in checkdbs mailpasswds senddigests gate_news 
 nightly_gzip bumpdigests disabled; \
do \
     .././install-sh -c -m 755 ../build/cron/$f 
/usr/local/mailman/cron; \
done
for i in ./*.jpg ./*.png; \
do \
   .././install-sh -c -m 644 $i /usr/local/mailman/icons; 
\
done
for d in bin cron scripts tests; \
do \
     dir=/usr/local/mailman/$d; \
     .././install-sh -c -m 644 paths.py $dir; \
done
.././install-sh -c -m 755 mailman 
/usr/local/mailman/scripts
.././install-sh -c -m 644 sitelist.cfg 
/usr/local/mailman/data
for p in email-2.5.7 JapaneseCodecs-1.4.11 
KoreanCodecs-2.0.5; \
do \
     gunzip -c ./$p.tar.gz | (cd . ; tar xf -); \
     (cd ./$p ; umask 02 ; 
PYTHONPATH=/usr/local/mailman/pythonlib 
/usr/local/bin/python setup.py --quiet install 
--install\done
/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/dist.py:213: 
UserWarning: 'licence' distribution option is deprecated; 
use 'license'
   warnings.warn(msg)
In file included from /usr/include/sys/wait.h:24,
                  from /usr/include/stdlib.h:22,
                  from 
/usr/local/include/python2.3/Python.h:36,
                  from src/_japanese_codecs.c:12:
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:259: error: parse error before 
"ctid_t"
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:292: error: parse error before 
'}' token
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:294: error: parse error before 
'}' token
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:390: error: parse error before 
"ctid_t"
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:392: error: conflicting types 
for `__proc'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:261: error: previous 
declaration of `__proc'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:398: error: conflicting types 
for `__fault'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:267: error: previous 
declaration of `__fault'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:404: error: conflicting types 
for `__file'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:273: error: previous 
declaration of `__file'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:420: error: conflicting types 
for `__prof'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:287: error: previous 
declaration of `__prof'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:424: error: conflicting types 
for `__rctl'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:291: error: previous 
declaration of `__rctl'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:426: error: parse error before 
'}' token
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:428: error: parse error before 
'}' token
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:432: error: parse error before 
"k_siginfo_t"
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:437: error: parse error before 
'}' token
In file included from /usr/include/sys/procset.h:24,
                  from /usr/include/sys/wait.h:25,
                  from /usr/include/stdlib.h:22,
                  from 
/usr/local/include/python2.3/Python.h:36,
                  from src/_japanese_codecs.c:12:
/usr/include/sys/signal.h:85: error: parse error before 
"siginfo_t"
In file included from /usr/include/stdlib.h:22,
                  from 
/usr/local/include/python2.3/Python.h:36,
                  from src/_japanese_codecs.c:12:
/usr/include/sys/wait.h:86: error: parse error before 
"siginfo_t"
In file included from 
/usr/local/include/python2.3/pyport.h:92,
                  from 
/usr/local/include/python2.3/Python.h:48,
                  from src/_japanese_codecs.c:12:
/usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.10/3.3.2/include/math.h:25:26: 
iso/math_iso.h: No such file or directory
/usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.10/3.3.2/include/math.h:26:26: 
iso/math_c99.h: No such file or directory
In file included from 
/usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.10/3.3.2/include/math.h:328,
                  from 
/usr/local/include/python2.3/pyport.h:92,
                  from 
/usr/local/include/python2.3/Python.h:48,
                  from src/_japanese_codecs.c:12:
/usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.10/3.3.2/include/floatingpoint.h:25:24: 
sys/ieeefp.h: No such file or directory
In file included from 
/usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.10/3.3.2/include/math.h:328,
                  from 
/usr/local/include/python2.3/pyport.h:92,
                  from 
/usr/local/include/python2.3/Python.h:48,
                  from src/_japanese_codecs.c:12:
/usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.10/3.3.2/include/floatingpoint.h:98: 
error: field `fpclass' has incomplete type
/usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.10/3.3.2/include/floatingpoint.h:110: 
confused by earlier errors, bailing out
error: command 'gcc' failed with exit status 1
*** Error code 1
make: Fatal error: Command failed for target 
`install-packages'
Current working directory /root/mailman-2.1.8/misc
*** Error code 1
The following command caused the error:
for d in bin cron misc Mailman scripts src templates 
messages tests; \
do \
     (cd $d; make DESTDIR= install); \
done
make: Fatal error: Command failed for target `doinstall'


It still fails with the japanese codecs ... why? I said to 
not import them. Any clues around? Any help would be 
greatly appreciated. btw: On an Sol10 06/06 i386 
installation it's compiling without major problems, the 
uncommenting of these codecs is enough.

TIA

Tom Stocker


From ki at knifecenter.com  Thu Aug 17 16:37:05 2006
From: ki at knifecenter.com (Ki Song)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:37:05 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stop Already Subscribed Message
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200607280734300859f6e72a39@msapiro>
Message-ID: <C109F751.2F069%ki@knifecenter.com>

> And email commands send an email response to the 'sender'. So anyone
> who attempts to subscribe or unsubscribe via your web page gets some
> kind of email reply. Further, in the case of an unsubscribe (and maybe
> subscribe depending on list settings), they get a 'confirm' email that
> requires further action.
> 
> In the case of someone who is already a member, the email response says
> that.
> 
> If you want to change this behavior, you can
> 
> 1) modify Mailman/Queue/CommandRunner.py and/or the appropriate
> Mailman/Commands/cmd-* scripts to do what you want, but you may need
> to do this in a list specific way if you have other lists, or
> 
> 2) change your web page to post to your own CGI or to run the
> bin/add_members and bin/remove_members commands, although the latter
> will have permission problems unless you make the command files SETGID
> which you may not want depending on who has shell access to the
> server. To avoid this, you can access the commands through a SETGID
> wrapper.
> 
I'm using mailman as a newsletter program for our company.
I have our order page setup so that a customer can choose to subscribe to
our newsletter right from our order form.
If they are a new customer, mailman sends them a confirmation message
requesting that the customer reply to the message to confirm their
subscription to our newsletter. That's fine.

However, I want mailman to stop sending an e-mail that says "You are already
subscribed to the newsletter".

Basically, the script that runs on our order form sends a message to
newsletter-join at domain.com with subscribe newsletter as the subject.

Is there a way for me to setup mailman so that if newsletter-join at domain.com
gets a message from a subscriber to subscribe again to the newsletter, the
mailman server doesn't send any message?

NOTE: I know I asked a similar question earlier in the list, but I would
think there is an easier way to implement this task.

Thanks!



From peter.brink at brinkdata.se  Thu Aug 17 23:04:53 2006
From: peter.brink at brinkdata.se (Peter Brink)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:04:53 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to change the default URL
Message-ID: <44E4D9F5.3080703@brinkdata.se>

Hi,

I run mailman on a MacOS X server. I had to use a virtual server (using 
a nonstandard port) for the mailman website to make it coexists with a 
webapp of mine. The mailman application is now on port 16090. I only had 
one list and that I managed to fix (thanks to a entry in the FAQ). But 
all other URLs are still pointing to www.my-domain.name/mailman (instead 
of www.my-domain.name:16090/mailman. Links inside MM fields are for 
example not always correct.

Any suggestions?

TIA,

Peter Brink



From dfilchak at sympatico.ca  Thu Aug 17 22:35:59 2006
From: dfilchak at sympatico.ca (Dave Filchak)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:35:59 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unmoderated user being moderated
Message-ID: <44E4D32F.3080403@sympatico.ca>

Can someone give me a hint why an umoderated user, for the purposes of 
posting to a one-way list, wold continually be moderated? I have double 
checked the moderation bit and it is off.

Dave


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Thu Aug 17 23:42:47 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:42:47 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unmoderated user being moderated
In-Reply-To: <44E4D32F.3080403@sympatico.ca>
References: <44E4D32F.3080403@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00608171442n2dcaacbdj40d2a23c9c19650@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/17/06, Dave Filchak <dfilchak at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Can someone give me a hint why an umoderated user, for the purposes of
> posting to a one-way list, wold continually be moderated? I have double
> checked the moderation bit and it is off.

Check emergency moderation, and check the various spam filters. If you
have access to the vette log, it should say exactly why the message
was held.


-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Fri Aug 18 03:57:20 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:57:20 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unmoderated user being moderated
In-Reply-To: <44E518DB.2040206@sympatico.ca>
References: <44E4D32F.3080403@sympatico.ca>
	<6fbe3da00608171442n2dcaacbdj40d2a23c9c19650@mail.gmail.com>
	<44E518DB.2040206@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00608171857o5d25703fubf4a485dc8610f60@mail.gmail.com>

While not directly applicable, searching the FAQ for 'vette' gives:
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.014.htp>
which talks about the log files a bit.

Also, please use reply-to-all to send your replies to the list, as well.

On 8/17/06, Dave Filchak <dfilchak at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Sorry ... where do I find the vette log??
>
> Dave
>
> Patrick Bogen wrote:
> > On 8/17/06, Dave Filchak <dfilchak at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >> Can someone give me a hint why an umoderated user, for the purposes of
> >> posting to a one-way list, wold continually be moderated? I have double
> >> checked the moderation bit and it is off.
> >
> > Check emergency moderation, and check the various spam filters. If you
> > have access to the vette log, it should say exactly why the message
> > was held.
> >
> >
>


-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From heather at madrone.com  Fri Aug 18 04:07:36 2006
From: heather at madrone.com (Heather Madrone)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 19:07:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unmoderated user being moderated
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00608171857o5d25703fubf4a485dc8610f60@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44E4D32F.3080403@sympatico.ca>
	<6fbe3da00608171442n2dcaacbdj40d2a23c9c19650@mail.gmail.com>
	<44E518DB.2040206@sympatico.ca>
	<6fbe3da00608171857o5d25703fubf4a485dc8610f60@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0623095cc10ad0bebcdf@[192.168.123.137]>

Also, check to make sure that the list member is posting from his
subscription address. You can add non-subscription addresses to
the approved posters list in Privacy Options...Sender Filters
to allow posts from a member's additional addresses to go through
without moderation.

-- 
Heather Madrone  (heather at madrone.com) 
The Knitfits list: http://www.madrone.com/Knitting/kfwelcome.html

"Big and beautiful, or, as some might call them, grand and glorious bodies 
do have special design requirements." -- Maggie Righetti


From peter.green at alphagalileo.org  Fri Aug 18 11:38:37 2006
From: peter.green at alphagalileo.org (Peter Green)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:38:37 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request
Message-ID: <B91CE4EC-F3AE-4227-BF3D-58E2DBD9F364@alphagalileo.org>

Apologies for this, but...

I can't get my lists to return a list of those members subscribed to  
them. I have followed the email commands in the FAQ and get replies  
saying that my command 'WHO' has been run, but I don't get a list in  
the way that I am used to with Listerver.


Peter Green
Director Development
Email: peter.green at alphagalileo.org
Phone: +44 (0) 7866 727141


AlphaGalileo Foundation
175-185 Grays Inn Road
London
WC1X 8UP
United Kingdom

AlphaGalileo: The online press centre for the latest in European  
research
www.alphagalileo.org




From thomas.stocker at acceleris.ch  Fri Aug 18 12:43:14 2006
From: thomas.stocker at acceleris.ch (Thomas Stocker)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:43:14 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] update: Still having japanese codec problems
Message-ID: <web-2261837@bersier.net>

update (switched back to python 2.4.2 from sunfreeware, 
because they have builtin the jp/ko codecs) Also tried 
older mailman versions - same error:

I followed the error >> /usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:259: 
error: parse error before "ctid_t"
I saw that this file siginfo.h on line 259 has this:

ctid_d  __ctid;		/* contract ID		*/
zoneid_t  __zoneid;	/* zone ID		*/

Could it be that this has somehow to do with the zones 
configured on this box?

# zoneadm list
global
sumailman01ldev
sumailman02ldev
sumailman01lpro

Same error, if i halt all zones, except the global one. 
Obvioulsy ;) I'm really stalled with this problem. Any 
clues around?

Thank you

Tom Stocker

------------
  
  
Hello guys

I still have big troubles compiling mailman 2.1.8 on a 
Solaris 10 06/06 sparc (SunFire V120) box. I tried with 
several Python Versions. SUNWones (SUNWPython / 
SUNWPython-devel v2.3.3), all which are available from 
sunfreeware (2.3.3 / 2.4.2 / 2.4.3) (2.4.3 gives a pythone 
too old message).

I uncommented the jp / korean import things from paths.py, 
which reads as follows (checked after each step):

[snip]

# In a normal interactive Python environment, the 
japanese.pth and korean.pth
# files would be imported automatically. But because we 
inhibit the importing
# of the site module, we need to be explicit about 
importing these codecs.
#import japanese
# As of KoreanCodecs 2.0.5, you had to do the second 
import to get the Korean
# codecs installed, however leave the first import in 
there in case an upgrade
# changes this.
#import korean
#import korean.aliases
# Arabic and Hebrew (RFC-1556) encoding aliases. 
(temporary solution)
import encodings.aliases
encodings.aliases.aliases.update({
     'iso_8859_6_e': 'iso8859_6',
     'iso_8859_6_i': 'iso8859_6',
     'iso_8859_8_e': 'iso8859_8',
     'iso_8859_8_i': 'iso8859_8',
})
-bash-3.00#

--------------------------



-bash-3.00# make distclean
[snip]

-bash-3.00# ./configure 
--with-python=/usr/local/bin/python
loading cache ./config.cache
checking for --with-python... /usr/local/bin/python
checking Python interpreter... /usr/local/bin/python
checking Python version... 2.3.3
checking that Python has a working distutils... yes
checking for a BSD compatible install... ./install-sh -c
checking whether make sets ${MAKE}... yes
checking for true... /usr/bin/true
checking for --without-gcc... no
checking for gcc... gcc
checking whether the C compiler (gcc ) works... yes
checking whether the C compiler (gcc ) is a 
cross-compiler... no
checking whether we are using GNU C... yes
checking whether gcc accepts -g... yes
checking whether #! works in shell scripts... yes
checking for --with-var-prefix... no
checking for --with-permcheck... yes
checking for --with-username... mailman
checking for user name "mailman"... okay
checking for --with-groupname... mailman
checking for group name "mailman"... okay
checking permissions on /usr/local/mailman... okay
checking for mail wrapper group; i.e. --with-mail-gid... 
mailman
checking for CGI wrapper group; i.e. --with-cgi-gid... 
nobody
checking for CGI extensions... no
checking for --with-mailhost... no
checking for --with-urlhost... no
checking for default mail host name... bahamas
checking for default URL host component... bahamas
checking for strerror... yes
checking for setregid... yes
checking for syslog... yes
checking how to run the C preprocessor... gcc -E
checking for ANSI C header files... yes
checking for syslog.h... yes
checking for uid_t in sys/types.h... yes
checking type of array argument to getgroups... gid_t
checking for vsnprintf... yes
updating cache ./config.cache
creating ./config.status
creating misc/paths.py
creating Mailman/Defaults.py
creating Mailman/mm_cfg.py.dist
creating src/Makefile
creating misc/Makefile
creating bin/Makefile
creating Mailman/Makefile
creating Mailman/Cgi/Makefile
creating Mailman/Logging/Makefile
creating Mailman/Archiver/Makefile
creating Mailman/Commands/Makefile
creating Mailman/Handlers/Makefile
creating Mailman/Bouncers/Makefile
creating Mailman/Queue/Makefile
creating Mailman/MTA/Makefile
creating Mailman/Gui/Makefile
creating templates/Makefile
creating cron/Makefile
creating scripts/Makefile
creating messages/Makefile
creating cron/crontab.in
creating misc/mailman
creating Makefile
creating tests/Makefile
creating tests/bounces/Makefile
creating tests/msgs/Makefile
creating build/bin/add_members
creating build/bin/arch
creating build/bin/change_pw
creating build/bin/check_db
creating build/bin/check_perms
creating build/bin/cleanarch
creating build/bin/clone_member
creating build/bin/config_list
creating build/bin/convert.py
creating build/bin/discard
creating build/bin/dumpdb
creating build/bin/find_member
creating build/bin/fix_url.py
creating build/bin/genaliases
creating build/bin/inject
creating build/bin/list_admins
creating build/bin/list_lists
creating build/bin/list_members
creating build/bin/list_owners
creating build/bin/mailmanctl
creating build/bin/mmsitepass
creating build/bin/msgfmt.py
creating build/bin/newlist
creating build/bin/pygettext.py
creating build/bin/qrunner
creating build/bin/remove_members
creating build/bin/reset_pw.py
creating build/bin/rmlist
creating build/bin/show_qfiles
creating build/bin/sync_members
creating build/bin/transcheck
creating build/bin/unshunt
creating build/bin/update
creating build/bin/version
creating build/bin/withlist
creating build/bin/b4b5-archfix
creating build/bin/rb-archfix
creating build/contrib/check_perms_grsecurity.py
creating build/contrib/qmail-to-mailman.py
creating build/contrib/rotatelogs.py
creating build/cron/bumpdigests
creating build/cron/checkdbs
creating build/cron/disabled
creating build/cron/gate_news
creating build/cron/mailpasswds
creating build/cron/nightly_gzip
creating build/cron/senddigests
configuration completed at Thu Aug 17 15:33:36 CEST 2006


-bash-3.00# make
for d in bin cron misc Mailman scripts src templates 
messages tests; \
do \
     (cd $d; make); \
done
for d in Cgi Logging Archiver Handlers Bouncers Queue MTA 
Gui Commands; \
do \
     (cd $d; make); \
done
gcc -c -I. -DPREFIX="\"/usr/local/mailman\"" 
-DPYTHON="\"/usr/local/bin/python\"" -DHELPFUL -g -O2 -g 
-O2 -DHAVE_STRERROcgcc -c -I. 
-DPREFIX="\"/usr/local/mailman\"" 
-DPYTHON="\"/usr/local/bin/python\"" -DHELPFUL -g -O2 -g 
-O2 -DHAVE_STRERROcgcc -DSCRIPT="\"admindb\"" -I. 
-DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" -g -O2 -g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 
-DHAVE_SETREGID=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG=1 cgcc 
-DSCRIPT="\"admin\"" -I. -DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" -g -O2 
-g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 -DHAVE_SETREGID=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG=1 
-Dcgcc -DSCRIPT="\"confirm\"" -I. -DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" 
-g -O2 -g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 -DHAVE_SETREGID=1 
-DHAVE_SYSLOG=1 cgcc -DSCRIPT="\"create\"" -I. 
-DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" -g -O2 -g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 
-DHAVE_SETREGID=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG=1 -cgcc 
-DSCRIPT="\"edithtml\"" -I. -DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" -g 
-O2 -g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 -DHAVE_SETREGID=1 
-DHAVE_SYSLOG=1cgcc -DSCRIPT="\"listinfo\"" -I. 
-DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" -g -O2 -g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 
-DHAVE_SETREGID=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG=1cgcc 
-DSCRIPT="\"options\"" -I. -DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" -g -O2 
-g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 -DHAVE_SETREGID=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG=1 
cgcc -DSCRIPT="\"private\"" -I. -DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" 
-g -O2 -g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 -DHAVE_SETREGID=1 
-DHAVE_SYSLOG=1 cgcc -DSCRIPT="\"rmlist\"" -I. 
-DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" -g -O2 -g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 
-DHAVE_SETREGID=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG=1 -cgcc 
-DSCRIPT="\"roster\"" -I. -DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" -g -O2 
-g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 -DHAVE_SETREGID=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG=1 
-cgcc -DSCRIPT="\"subscribe\"" -I. 
-DCGI_GROUP="\"nobody\"" -g -O2 -g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 
-DHAVE_SETREGID=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG=cgcc -I. 
-DMAIL_GROUP="\"mailman\"" -g -O2 -g -O2 -DHAVE_STRERROR=1 
-DHAVE_SETREGID=1 -DHAVE_SYSLOG=1 -DSTDC_HEADERS=1 
-DHAc/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
ca/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo ca/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
cs/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo cs/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
da/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo da/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
de/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo de/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
es/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo es/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
et/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo et/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
eu/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo eu/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
fi/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo fi/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
fr/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo fr/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
hr/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo hr/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
hu/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo hu/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
ia/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo ia/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
it/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo it/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
ja/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo ja/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
ko/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo ko/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
lt/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo lt/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
nl/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo nl/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
no/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo no/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
pl/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo pl/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
pt/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo pt/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
pt_BR/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo pt_BR/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
ro/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo ro/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
ru/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo ru/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
sl/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo sl/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
sr/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo sr/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
sv/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo sv/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
tr/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo tr/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
uk/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo uk/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
zh_CN/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo zh_CN/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po
/usr/local/bin/python ../build/bin/msgfmt.py -o 
zh_TW/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.mo zh_TW/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po


-bash-3.00# make install
Creating architecture independent directories...
chmod o-r /usr/local/mailman/archives/private
Creating architecture dependent directories...
for f in mmsitepass newlist rmlist add_members 
list_members remove_members clone_member update arch 
sync_members check_d\do \
     .././install-sh -c -m 755 ../build/bin/$f 
/usr/local/mailman/bin; \
done
for f in crontab.in; \
do \
     .././install-sh -c -m 644 $f /usr/local/mailman/cron; 
\
done
for f in checkdbs mailpasswds senddigests gate_news 
nightly_gzip bumpdigests disabled; \
do \
     .././install-sh -c -m 755 ../build/cron/$f 
/usr/local/mailman/cron; \
done
for i in ./*.jpg ./*.png; \
do \
   .././install-sh -c -m 644 $i /usr/local/mailman/icons; 
\
done
for d in bin cron scripts tests; \
do \
     dir=/usr/local/mailman/$d; \
     .././install-sh -c -m 644 paths.py $dir; \
done
.././install-sh -c -m 755 mailman 
/usr/local/mailman/scripts
.././install-sh -c -m 644 sitelist.cfg 
/usr/local/mailman/data
for p in email-2.5.7 JapaneseCodecs-1.4.11 
KoreanCodecs-2.0.5; \
do \
     gunzip -c ./$p.tar.gz | (cd . ; tar xf -); \
     (cd ./$p ; umask 02 ; 
PYTHONPATH=/usr/local/mailman/pythonlib 
/usr/local/bin/python setup.py --quiet install 
--install\done
/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/dist.py:213: 
UserWarning: 'licence' distribution option is deprecated; 
use 'license'
   warnings.warn(msg)
In file included from /usr/include/sys/wait.h:24,
                  from /usr/include/stdlib.h:22,
                  from 
/usr/local/include/python2.3/Python.h:36,
                  from src/_japanese_codecs.c:12:
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:259: error: parse error before 
"ctid_t"
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:292: error: parse error before 
'}' token
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:294: error: parse error before 
'}' token
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:390: error: parse error before 
"ctid_t"
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:392: error: conflicting types 
for `__proc'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:261: error: previous 
declaration of `__proc'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:398: error: conflicting types 
for `__fault'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:267: error: previous 
declaration of `__fault'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:404: error: conflicting types 
for `__file'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:273: error: previous 
declaration of `__file'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:420: error: conflicting types 
for `__prof'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:287: error: previous 
declaration of `__prof'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:424: error: conflicting types 
for `__rctl'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:291: error: previous 
declaration of `__rctl'
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:426: error: parse error before 
'}' token
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:428: error: parse error before 
'}' token
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:432: error: parse error before 
"k_siginfo_t"
/usr/include/sys/siginfo.h:437: error: parse error before 
'}' token
In file included from /usr/include/sys/procset.h:24,
                  from /usr/include/sys/wait.h:25,
                  from /usr/include/stdlib.h:22,
                  from 
/usr/local/include/python2.3/Python.h:36,
                  from src/_japanese_codecs.c:12:
/usr/include/sys/signal.h:85: error: parse error before 
"siginfo_t"
In file included from /usr/include/stdlib.h:22,
                  from 
/usr/local/include/python2.3/Python.h:36,
                  from src/_japanese_codecs.c:12:
/usr/include/sys/wait.h:86: error: parse error before 
"siginfo_t"
In file included from 
/usr/local/include/python2.3/pyport.h:92,
                  from 
/usr/local/include/python2.3/Python.h:48,
                  from src/_japanese_codecs.c:12:
/usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.10/3.3.2/include/math.h:25:26: 
iso/math_iso.h: No such file or directory
/usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.10/3.3.2/include/math.h:26:26: 
iso/math_c99.h: No such file or directory
In file included from 
/usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.10/3.3.2/include/math.h:328,
                  from 
/usr/local/include/python2.3/pyport.h:92,
                  from 
/usr/local/include/python2.3/Python.h:48,
                  from src/_japanese_codecs.c:12:
/usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.10/3.3.2/include/floatingpoint.h:25:24: 
sys/ieeefp.h: No such file or directory
In file included from 
/usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.10/3.3.2/include/math.h:328,
                  from 
/usr/local/include/python2.3/pyport.h:92,
                  from 
/usr/local/include/python2.3/Python.h:48,
                  from src/_japanese_codecs.c:12:
/usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.10/3.3.2/include/floatingpoint.h:98: 
error: field `fpclass' has incomplete type
/usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.10/3.3.2/include/floatingpoint.h:110: 
confused by earlier errors, bailing out
error: command 'gcc' failed with exit status 1
*** Error code 1
make: Fatal error: Command failed for target 
`install-packages'
Current working directory /root/mailman-2.1.8/misc
*** Error code 1
The following command caused the error:
for d in bin cron misc Mailman scripts src templates 
messages tests; \
do \
     (cd $d; make DESTDIR= install); \
done
make: Fatal error: Command failed for target `doinstall'


It still fails with the japanese codecs ... why? I said to 
not import them. Any clues around? Any help would be 
greatly appreciated. btw: On an Sol10 06/06 i386 
installation it's compiling without major problems, the 
uncommenting of these codecs is enough.

TIA

Tom Stocker


From lstone19 at stonejongleux.com  Fri Aug 18 16:32:04 2006
From: lstone19 at stonejongleux.com (Larry Stone)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:32:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Suppressing "You have been unsubscribed" after
	bounce removal
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.58.0608180913570.21076@albion.stonejongleux.com>

I use mailman (2.1.8) for a number of broadcast lists to organization
members. The members don't know anything about mailman - I do all the
suscrbing and unsubscribing manually with no notification to the member
(thank goodness for mass subscribe and unsubscribe). Since the user knows
nothing about mailman, when they reach the bounce threshold, they're
immediately removed with no "Your membership is disabled" warnings.

I was surprised to see recently that "You have been unsubscribed" messages
are still sent to the user when a "by bounce" unsubscribe occurs despite
"Send goodbye message to members when they are unsubscribed?" being set to
No in General Options. I recall that Mailman didn't previously do so but I
might be mis-remembering. Is there a way to suppress the "You have been
unsubscribed" message?

Obviously, if the bounce is for "no user", then the second message will
bounce too but for those ISPs who count how many hits there are on
non-existent users from the same address, this is not good. And for quota
bounces, it's possible that the "You have been unsubscribed" will get
through when the original didn't.

I only noticed this recently when I did a mailing using a list of about
1,400 addresses from the state association of which 300 turned out to be
bad, mostly for no such user. Besides everything else, that's extra load
on the MTA that doesn't need to be there.

-- Larry Stone
   lstone19 at stonejongleux.com


From dotpanic at ultim8team.com  Fri Aug 18 17:41:43 2006
From: dotpanic at ultim8team.com (DoTPanic)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:41:43 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] wrong URLs in mail footer and web pages
Message-ID: <008501c6c2dc$cec99970$0100a8c0@u8tdotpanic>

Hello,

I've installed mailman on a server which is located on my private network.
It is also the gateway to Internet. I'm using it as a web server.

I've configured mailman and everything was quite straightforward.

I only have one small problem:
When mailman sends mail, it uses my private network hostname in the mail
footer, instead of my Internet hostname (dyndns one). For the moment, my
footer is (URLs have been changed):
_______________________________________________
Publicml mailing list
Publicml at dot.dyndns.org
http://nunux.mshome.net/mailman/listinfo/publicml

But I would like it to be:
_______________________________________________
Publicml mailing list
Publicml at dot.dyndns.org
http://dot.dyndns.org/mailman/listinfo/publicml

And the same problem occurs when I'm on the website. Every URL in HTML pages
begins with nunux.mshome.net. This is not an issue when accessing the pages
from my private network, but it becomes very problematic when I want to
access the pages from Internet.

Do you have any idea on what may causes this problem?
What can I do to solve this issue?

Thanks!
Mike

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Geek Code (Version: 3.12)
GIT/CS d-- s:@ a->? C++(++++) L++>+++++ P++ L++ E--- W++$ N+ o-- K? w++ !O
M- !V PS(+++) PE-(--) Y+ PGP++ t 5 X+ R>+ tv+@ b+@ DI++ D++ G e++>+++ h----
r+++ z+++(*)
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ 




From dotpanic at ultim8team.com  Fri Aug 18 18:19:50 2006
From: dotpanic at ultim8team.com (DoTPanic)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 18:19:50 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] FW:  wrong URLs in mail footer and web pages
Message-ID: <00e301c6c2e2$21571370$0100a8c0@u8tdotpanic>

Hello,

I finally solved my problem with the withlist command.

Thanks!
Mike

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Geek Code (Version: 3.12)
GIT/CS d-- s:@ a->? C++(++++) L++>+++++ P++ L++ E--- W++$ N+ o-- K? w++ !O
M- !V PS(+++) PE-(--) Y+ PGP++ t 5 X+ R>+ tv+@ b+@ DI++ D++ G e++>+++ h----
r+++ z+++(*)
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ 

-----Original Message-----
From: mailman-users-bounces+dotpanic=ultim8team.com at python.org
[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+dotpanic=ultim8team.com at python.org] On Behalf
Of DoTPanic
Sent: vendredi 18 ao?t 2006 17:42
To: mailman-users at python.org
Subject: [Mailman-Users] wrong URLs in mail footer and web pages

Hello,

I've installed mailman on a server which is located on my private network.
It is also the gateway to Internet. I'm using it as a web server.

I've configured mailman and everything was quite straightforward.

I only have one small problem:
When mailman sends mail, it uses my private network hostname in the mail
footer, instead of my Internet hostname (dyndns one). For the moment, my
footer is (URLs have been changed):
_______________________________________________
Publicml mailing list
Publicml at dot.dyndns.org
http://nunux.mshome.net/mailman/listinfo/publicml

But I would like it to be:
_______________________________________________
Publicml mailing list
Publicml at dot.dyndns.org
http://dot.dyndns.org/mailman/listinfo/publicml

And the same problem occurs when I'm on the website. Every URL in HTML pages
begins with nunux.mshome.net. This is not an issue when accessing the pages
from my private network, but it becomes very problematic when I want to
access the pages from Internet.

Do you have any idea on what may causes this problem?
What can I do to solve this issue?

Thanks!
Mike

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Geek Code (Version: 3.12)
GIT/CS d-- s:@ a->? C++(++++) L++>+++++ P++ L++ E--- W++$ N+ o-- K? w++ !O
M- !V PS(+++) PE-(--) Y+ PGP++ t 5 X+ R>+ tv+@ b+@ DI++ D++ G e++>+++ h----
r+++ z+++(*)
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ 


------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list
Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/dotpanic%40ultim8team.c
om

Security Policy:
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp




From mailman at veggiechinese.net  Sat Aug 19 02:25:45 2006
From: mailman at veggiechinese.net (William Yardley)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:25:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] weird (occasional) random discards
Message-ID: <20060819002545.GD28381@mitch.veggiechinese.net>

I've occasionally seen an issue where Mailman seems to randomly discard
messages.

I don't think the sender canceled via the web, because there's no:
"Reason: Sender discarded message via web." in the log, and I don't see
anything in my web access logs from around then.

I approved the message via email (see second line below), yet it got
discarded anyway.

Any ideas?

Aug 18 15:53:00 2006 (888) listname post from mkane at example.com held, message-id=<019c01c6c319$240fece0$7a0aa8c0 at Internal.example.com>:
Message body is too big: 50630 bytes with a limit of 40 KB
Aug 18 15:56:17 2006 (887) held message approved, message-id: <019c01c6c319$240fece0$7a0aa8c0 at Internal.example.com>
Aug 18 15:56:17 2006 (888) Message discarded, msgid: <019c01c6c319$240fece0$7a0aa8c0 at Internal.example.com>



From mailman at veggiechinese.net  Sat Aug 19 02:45:42 2006
From: mailman at veggiechinese.net (William Yardley)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:45:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] weird (occasional) random discards
In-Reply-To: <079A0D7C-06FC-4C63-ADFE-3CB656894F8B@music.memphis.edu>
References: <20060819002545.GD28381@mitch.veggiechinese.net>
	<079A0D7C-06FC-4C63-ADFE-3CB656894F8B@music.memphis.edu>
Message-ID: <20060819004542.GE28381@mitch.veggiechinese.net>

On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 07:27:59PM -0500, Dan Phillips wrote:
> On Aug 18, 2006, at 7:25 PM, William Yardley wrote:
[ CCing the list too, in case it's useful to anyone)
> > Any ideas?
> 
> Do you have content filtering set to remove html? If the message was  
> a single part text/html and html is stripped, the result is an empty  
> shell, which mailman discards.

Yes I do, though I don't have Mailman configured to remove attachments,
and the message had both a text/plain part and some image attachments.

3 `-><no description>         [multipa/related, 7bit, 50K]
4   |-><no description>       [multipa/alternativ, 7bit, 15K]
5   | |-><no description>     [text/plain, 7bit, us-ascii, 2.2K] 
6   | `-><no description>     [text/html, quoted, us-ascii, 13K]
7   |->image001.jpg           [image/jpeg, base64, 3.8K]
8   |->image002.jpg           [image/jpeg, base64, 3.7K]
9   |->image003.jpg           [image/jpeg, base64, 3.3K]
10   |->image004.jpg          [image/jpeg, base64, 10K]
11   |->image005.jpg          [image/jpeg, base64, 3.6K]
12   |->image006.jpg          [image/jpeg, base64, 2.5K]
13   `->image007.jpg          [image/jpeg, base64, 6.1K] 

(yeah - don't even get me started with people who think it's "neat" to
send binary attachments to a mailing list).

w



From mailman at veggiechinese.net  Sat Aug 19 03:02:56 2006
From: mailman at veggiechinese.net (William Yardley)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 18:02:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] weird (occasional) random discards
In-Reply-To: <20060819004542.GE28381@mitch.veggiechinese.net>
References: <20060819002545.GD28381@mitch.veggiechinese.net>
	<079A0D7C-06FC-4C63-ADFE-3CB656894F8B@music.memphis.edu>
	<20060819004542.GE28381@mitch.veggiechinese.net>
Message-ID: <20060819010256.GF28381@mitch.veggiechinese.net>

On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 05:45:42PM -0700, William Yardley wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 07:27:59PM -0500, Dan Phillips wrote:
> > On Aug 18, 2006, at 7:25 PM, William Yardley wrote:
> [ CCing the list too, in case it's useful to anyone)
> > > Any ideas?
> > 
> > Do you have content filtering set to remove html? If the message was  
> > a single part text/html and html is stripped, the result is an empty  
> > shell, which mailman discards.
> 
> Yes I do, though I don't have Mailman configured to remove attachments,
> and the message had both a text/plain part and some image attachments.
> 
> 3 `-><no description>         [multipa/related, 7bit, 50K]
> 4   |-><no description>       [multipa/alternativ, 7bit, 15K]
> 5   | |-><no description>     [text/plain, 7bit, us-ascii, 2.2K] 
> 6   | `-><no description>     [text/html, quoted, us-ascii, 13K]
> 7   |->image001.jpg           [image/jpeg, base64, 3.8K]
> 8   |->image002.jpg           [image/jpeg, base64, 3.7K]
> 9   |->image003.jpg           [image/jpeg, base64, 3.3K]
> 10   |->image004.jpg          [image/jpeg, base64, 10K]
> 11   |->image005.jpg          [image/jpeg, base64, 3.6K]
> 12   |->image006.jpg          [image/jpeg, base64, 2.5K]
> 13   `->image007.jpg          [image/jpeg, base64, 6.1K] 

Further info...

I have the list set to discard attachments not matching the following
types:

multipart/mixed
multipart/alternative
text/plain

The message itself has its content-type set to "multipart/related". I
wouldn't think that the message itself would count as an attachment, but
I added that - hopefully that will help (for sure, disabling all content
filtering fixed the problem).

Mailman is v2.1.5 on RHEL, if it matters.

w



From dfilchak at sympatico.ca  Sat Aug 19 06:12:44 2006
From: dfilchak at sympatico.ca (Dave Filchak)
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 00:12:44 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unmoderated user being moderated
In-Reply-To: <p0623095cc10ad0bebcdf@[192.168.123.137]>
References: <44E4D32F.3080403@sympatico.ca>
	<6fbe3da00608171442n2dcaacbdj40d2a23c9c19650@mail.gmail.com>
	<44E518DB.2040206@sympatico.ca>
	<6fbe3da00608171857o5d25703fubf4a485dc8610f60@mail.gmail.com>
	<p0623095cc10ad0bebcdf@[192.168.123.137]>
Message-ID: <44E68FBC.7020307@sympatico.ca>

Issue Solved: I feel a bit stupid but it turns out that the message they 
were trying to send was over the size limit set in the list. A dumb 
mistake but I will learn from it.

Thanks everyone.

Dave

Heather Madrone wrote:
> Also, check to make sure that the list member is posting from his
> subscription address. You can add non-subscription addresses to
> the approved posters list in Privacy Options...Sender Filters
> to allow posts from a member's additional addresses to go through
> without moderation.
>
>   


From twright at tantrumedia.com  Sat Aug 19 19:13:45 2006
From: twright at tantrumedia.com (Tim Wright)
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 18:13:45 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unmoderated user being moderated
In-Reply-To: <44E68FBC.7020307@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <001f01c6c3b2$d5d5a020$0300a8c0@amd64>

Hi,

Don't be too hard on yourself, I too fell fowl if this limit. ;O)

It would be good in future versions of Mailman to have a "Dummy's
(no offence to me or you!) setup script" that asks all the vital
questions and primes the fields accordingly. Stuff that, unless
you are eagle-eyed on all the parameters, you could miss. Stuff
that stops the product doing what you might expect such as mail
size limits, limits on number of users in the recipient list,
along with a really basic 'laymans' explanation of what's going
on and how it's doing what it's doing.

I also am a total newbie at Python, so the equivalent of
"*@domain.com" for a wildcard "everyone at a domain" really
flummoxed me and I eventually found and cut & paste from the FAQ.
Maybe a bit of code built-in to Mailman for newbies that parses
"*@domain.com" into Python would be great?

I'm sure these (and many more) suggestions fly past the holder
of the source code, and I for one am eternally grateful that
Mailman does what it does right now, without any mods for amatuers
or beginners, but there's always room for improvement as with
anything! ;O)

In fact, if I had the time I should learn the necessary skills and
do something about it, eh? :OD

Not sure how often this is said, but "Thanks for Mailman Guys!".
It does it's job well...

ATB,
Tim W.

-----Original Message-----
From: mailman-users-bounces+twright=tantrumedia.com at python.org
[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+twright=tantrumedia.com at python.org] On
Behalf Of Dave Filchak
Sent: 19 August 2006 05:13
To: Heather Madrone
Cc: Mailman Users
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] unmoderated user being moderated


Issue Solved: I feel a bit stupid but it turns out that the message they

were trying to send was over the size limit set in the list. A dumb 
mistake but I will learn from it.

Thanks everyone.

Dave

Heather Madrone wrote:
> Also, check to make sure that the list member is posting from his 
> subscription address. You can add non-subscription addresses to the 
> approved posters list in Privacy Options...Sender Filters to allow 
> posts from a member's additional addresses to go through without 
> moderation.
>
>   
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list
Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Searchable Archives:
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/twright%40tantrumed
ia.com

Security Policy:
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp





From raph at mankin.org.uk  Sun Aug 20 11:21:11 2006
From: raph at mankin.org.uk (Raphael Mankin)
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 10:21:11 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 30, Issue 28
In-Reply-To: <mailman.34919.1155866243.27774.mailman-users@python.org>
References: <mailman.34919.1155866243.27774.mailman-users@python.org>
Message-ID: <1156065671.8753.15.camel@mailgate.mankin.org.uk>

> 
> > -------- Forwarded Message --------
> > To: mailman-users at python.org
> > Subject: [Mailman-Users] unmoderated user being moderated
> > Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:35:59 -0400
> > 
> > Can someone give me a hint why an umoderated user, for the purposes of 
> > posting to a one-way list, wold continually be moderated? I have double 
> > checked the moderation bit and it is off.
> > 
> > Dave
> > 
> 

Apart from the other suggestions you have received, messages being
over-length (possibly as a result of being HTML encoded) will force
moderation.



From stumpie1 at sbcglobal.net  Sun Aug 20 17:46:25 2006
From: stumpie1 at sbcglobal.net (stumpie1 at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 08:46:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Number of recipients
Message-ID: <20060820154625.49874.qmail@web82809.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi,

I manage a private mail list of about 150 members. 
One of our members sends a summary of the week's
projects to the mail list and also to a number of
people who aren't on the mail list.  All his messages
are held for manager approval with the reason of "too
many recipients."

I've been looking at the documentation for a setting
where his messages will automatically go to the list
without being defered, but I can't locate the proper
setting.

I guess I could tell him to send a message to the list
and cc: the others, but will that also cause a
deferal?

Solutions, thoughts, opinions?

Thanks

Paul


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Sun Aug 20 18:44:04 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 09:44:04 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Number of recipients
In-Reply-To: <20060820154625.49874.qmail@web82809.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060820154625.49874.qmail@web82809.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060820093538.05bc5ca8@crimson-dragon.com>

stumpie1 at sbcglobal.net sent the message below at 08:46 AM 8/20/2006:
>Hi,
>
>I manage a private mail list of about 150 members.
>One of our members sends a summary of the week's
>projects to the mail list and also to a number of
>people who aren't on the mail list.  All his messages
>are held for manager approval with the reason of "too
>many recipients."
>
>I've been looking at the documentation for a setting
>where his messages will automatically go to the list
>without being defered, but I can't locate the proper
>setting.

There is a setting for that, it's on the privacy options->recipient 
filters page in the web interface. The setting is called 
max_num_recipients, it defaults to 10 IIRC.


>I guess I could tell him to send a message to the list
>and cc: the others, but will that also cause a
>deferal?

As far as I know, this won't work. I believe mailman counts the total 
number of addresses in the To: and CC: headers.


>Solutions, thoughts, opinions?

Always ;-)

I would suggest that this user should use BCC: for the other 
recipients unless there is a valid reason that everyone should be 
able to see their e-mail addresses. I say this because I am a huge 
advocate of privacy and don't believe in disclosing e-mail addresses 
to just anyone.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From vanslyck at gmail.com  Sun Aug 20 21:36:38 2006
From: vanslyck at gmail.com (Carolyn Van Slyck)
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 14:36:38 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python Version Mismatch
Message-ID: <69d8e4160608201236g2a1815c9m57e18bd28964a067@mail.gmail.com>

I am getting this email sent to me every 10 minutes and am not sure
how to correct the problem.

/var/mailman/pythonlib/japanese/c/euc_jp.py:3: RuntimeWarning: Python
C API version mismatch for module _japanese_codecs: This Python has
API version 1011, module _japanese_codecs has version 1012.
  import codecs, japanese.c._japanese_codecs
/var/mailman/pythonlib/korean/hangul.py:24: RuntimeWarning: Python C
API version mismatch for module hangul: This Python has API version
1011, module hangul has version 1012.
  from korean.c.hangul import *

I am running python 2.4.3.  I have tried deleting the korean and
japanese pythonlib directories and then running make install again,
then restarting mailman but this doesn't correct the problem.

I would appreciate any ideas for either fixing the issue or at least
stopping the email warnings.
Thanks!
Carolyn


From joel.heenan at sensorynetworks.com  Mon Aug 21 02:21:07 2006
From: joel.heenan at sensorynetworks.com (Joel Heenan)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:21:07 +1000
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hold message on implicit destination - except from
	list members
Message-ID: <44E8FC73.6040605@sensorynetworks.com>

Mailman-Users,

The feature to hold messages with implicit destination helps us a lot
because a good percentage of spam does not list the list in the headers.
However occasionally list members like to send messages to the list
without the list as a recipient (for various mostly valid reasons) and
it would be good to be able to handle this case. Is it possible that we
always allow list members through and only hold non-list members?

If possible I would like to avoid doing this with regex.

Thanks
-- 
Joel Heenan


From msapiro at value.net  Mon Aug 21 04:23:01 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 19:23:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hold message on implicit destination - except
	fromlist members
In-Reply-To: <44E8FC73.6040605@sensorynetworks.com>
Message-ID: <PC1740200608201923010328e4a96f69@msapiro>

Joel Heenan wrote:
>
>The feature to hold messages with implicit destination helps us a lot
>because a good percentage of spam does not list the list in the headers.
>However occasionally list members like to send messages to the list
>without the list as a recipient (for various mostly valid reasons) and
>it would be good to be able to handle this case. Is it possible that we
>always allow list members through and only hold non-list members?


It seems that what you want is

Privacy options...->Recipient filters->require_explicit_destination = No

and

Privacy options...->Sender filters->generic_nonmember_action = Hold	

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Aug 21 05:12:50 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:12:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python Version Mismatch
In-Reply-To: <69d8e4160608201236g2a1815c9m57e18bd28964a067@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17402006082020125002181eea8bec@msapiro>

Carolyn Van Slyck wrote:

>I am getting this email sent to me every 10 minutes and am not sure
>how to correct the problem.


I am puzzled. I am sure this is coming from Mailman's cron/gate_news
script, but that is run (at least by default) every 5 minutes, not
every 10.


>/var/mailman/pythonlib/japanese/c/euc_jp.py:3: RuntimeWarning: Python
>C API version mismatch for module _japanese_codecs: This Python has
>API version 1011, module _japanese_codecs has version 1012.
>  import codecs, japanese.c._japanese_codecs
>/var/mailman/pythonlib/korean/hangul.py:24: RuntimeWarning: Python C
>API version mismatch for module hangul: This Python has API version
>1011, module hangul has version 1012.
>  from korean.c.hangul import *
>
>I am running python 2.4.3.  I have tried deleting the korean and
>japanese pythonlib directories and then running make install again,
>then restarting mailman but this doesn't correct the problem.


Did you upgrade Python to 2.4.3 after installing Mailman on an older
Python? If so, starting with 'configure' followed by 'make install'
may help.


>I would appreciate any ideas for either fixing the issue or at least
>stopping the email warnings.


If the warnings are coming from the cron jobs, you can suppress them by
editing Mailman's crontab and adding a '-W ignore' option to the
python commands.

E.g. for a default crontab, you might have something like

0 8 * * * /usr/bin/python -S /var/mailman/cron/checkdbs

and so on for the others. You could change this to

0 8 * * * /usr/bin/python -S -W ignore /var/mailman/cron/checkdbs

and similarly for the others.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From alazarev at itg.uiuc.edu  Mon Aug 21 16:42:04 2006
From: alazarev at itg.uiuc.edu (Alexander Lazarevich)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:42:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] add_member with nomail option set?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0608210939480.15544@zeus.itg.uiuc.edu>

I've trying to add members to a list, via command line, with the nomail 
option set. add_member doesn't have that option. I checked clone_member, 
which *says* it will clone a members settings to a new account, but that 
doesn't seem to inherit the nomail option.

How do I create new members via command line, or set the members nomail 
flag via command line. There is no way the only way to do this is via the 
web interface, is there?

Thanks,

Alex


From peter at devries.tv  Mon Aug 21 17:10:30 2006
From: peter at devries.tv (Peter DeVries)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:10:30 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman + htdig problems
Message-ID: <50cd6cea0608210810q7549ecdci9da1ee6dfcd5b307@mail.gmail.com>

I have an installation of mailman 2.1.8 that I patched with:

htdig-2.1.7-0.1.patch
indexing-2.1.7-0.1.patch
mhonarc-2.1.7-0.1.patch

My problem is that the archive page of any newly created lists looks like this

 %(indexing_disable)s
The Index-test Archives

You can get more information about this list.
%(htsearch)s            	
Archive           View by:           Downloadable version        	
August 2006:                            [ Thread ]               [
Subject ]               [ Author ] %(indexing_enable)s[ Date ]
%(indexing_disable)s                          [ Text 282 bytes ]
                         %(indexing_enable)s

The %(htsearch)s doesn't seem to be properly calling TOC_htsearch and
the indexing_enable parts appear on the page which I don't believe the
should.

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Peter


From jay at abadata.com  Mon Aug 21 17:55:26 2006
From: jay at abadata.com (Jay Vaagen)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:55:26 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] SMTPHOST
Message-ID: <200608211555.k7LFtm828971@raq550.sebewaing.net>

Mailman is running, and I've created a few different mailing lists.

I'm running BQ and have virtual domains. Currently all email sent from
Mailman is originating from my localhost FQDN. I would like email from one
of my virtual domains to be sent from that domain name/IP, not the localhost
domain name and IP..

 

Is this possible?

 

Thanks!

 

Jay



 



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Aug 21 18:39:34 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:39:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] add_member with nomail option set?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0608210939480.15544@zeus.itg.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608210939340796f0754bfe@msapiro>

Alexander Lazarevich wrote:

>I've trying to add members to a list, via command line, with the nomail 
>option set. add_member doesn't have that option. I checked clone_member, 
>which *says* it will clone a members settings to a new account, but that 
>doesn't seem to inherit the nomail option.


That's right. clone_member only clones the message/digest setting an
the bit flag options.


>How do I create new members via command line, or set the members nomail 
>flag via command line. There is no way the only way to do this is via the 
>web interface, is there?


You need a withlist script such as the following:

Cut---------------------------------------------------------
"""Set a member to no mail by admin.

Save as bin/set_nomail.py

Run via

   bin/withlist -r set_nomail <listname> <member>
"""

from Mailman import MemberAdaptor

def set_nomail(mlist, member):
    if not mlist.Locked():
        mlist.Lock()
    mlist.setDeliveryStatus(member, MemberAdaptor.BYADMIN)
    mlist.Save()
    mlist.Unlock()
Cut----------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From ges+lists at wingfoot.org  Mon Aug 21 18:17:44 2006
From: ges+lists at wingfoot.org (Glenn Sieb)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:17:44 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman + htdig problems
In-Reply-To: <50cd6cea0608210810q7549ecdci9da1ee6dfcd5b307@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50cd6cea0608210810q7549ecdci9da1ee6dfcd5b307@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44E9DCA8.5090503@wingfoot.org>

Peter DeVries said the following on 8/21/2006 11:10 AM:
> My problem is that the archive page of any newly created lists looks like this

It looks like you might be missing:

ScriptAlias /mailman/ "/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/"
Alias /pipermail/ "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public/"

in your httpd.conf ... if it's there, have you restarted Apache?

Best,
--Glenn


From testsimplyy at gmail.com  Mon Aug 21 19:09:34 2006
From: testsimplyy at gmail.com (test simply)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:39:34 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Test Mail
Message-ID: <bdf173520608211009r528c0e9taaff2e08948b68e6@mail.gmail.com>

test mail


From larryj at gsu.edu  Mon Aug 21 21:21:06 2006
From: larryj at gsu.edu (Larry Johnson)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:21:06 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] site administration question
In-Reply-To: <20060816210258.GB20401@mitch.veggiechinese.net>
References: <1155757563.22775.20.camel@fitzwarin.gsu.edu>
	<20060816210258.GB20401@mitch.veggiechinese.net>
Message-ID: <1156188066.5536.16.camel@fitzwarin.gsu.edu>

I wrote:

> > First question -- do we really need the zipped up copy, while the
> > unzipped version is in the directory?  Are there any local settings we
> > can do to optimize space until we've moved to the new machine?
> 

and in response:

On Wed, 2006-08-16 at 14:02 -0700, William Yardley wrote:

> My understanding is that this copy is just to make it easy for people to
> download a compressed archive of the mbox file.
> 
> See:
> GZIP_ARCHIVE_TXT_FILES = No
> 
> in Defaults.py
> 
> So you sould see if GZIP_ARCHIVE_TXT_FILES is set in mm_cfg.py.
> 
> After disabling that, I think you should just be able to remove the .gz
> files.

Thanks.  This worked, with the exception that rather than setting that
variable (which seemed to be set to 'No' by default) I just had to
comment out the cron job "nightly_gzip"  (same effect).

Now I have one other related question.  The archives directories have
the mbox file of the form:

mailman/archives/private/<listname>.mbox/<listname>.mbox

This file seems to grow indefinitely, and is paralleled by the various
*.txt files broken down by month.  We'd like to remove messages older
than a certain date.  Reading the Site Administrator Documentation the
best I can infer is that the way to do this would be edit the *mbox file
and run arch to rebuild the html archives.  Is this true?  Will "arch"
remove the *.txt files corresponding to the deleted messages from the
*mbox? 

Larry



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Aug 21 21:51:46 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:51:46 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] site administration question
In-Reply-To: <1156188066.5536.16.camel@fitzwarin.gsu.edu>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082112514601565c0d37ca@msapiro>

Larry Johnson wrote:
>
>Now I have one other related question.  The archives directories have
>the mbox file of the form:
>
>mailman/archives/private/<listname>.mbox/<listname>.mbox
>
>This file seems to grow indefinitely, and is paralleled by the various
>*.txt files broken down by month.  We'd like to remove messages older
>than a certain date.  Reading the Site Administrator Documentation the
>best I can infer is that the way to do this would be edit the *mbox file
>and run arch to rebuild the html archives.  Is this true?  Will "arch"
>remove the *.txt files corresponding to the deleted messages from the
>*mbox? 


It will if you use the --wipe option.

However, if you delete messages from the global .mbox file and rebuild
with 'bin/arch --wipe', all the archive messages will be renumbered
which will invalidate any saved URLs (or archived URLs) pointing to
archived messages.

E.g. suppose there is a message in the archive that says "see my prior
post at
<http://example.com/pipermail/listname/2006-August/999999.html>".
After rebuilding, even if the post is still in the archive, its number
will be different so the URL will either be invalid or will retrieve
the wrong message.

This may or may not be a concern for you.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From novotny at aei.mpg.de  Mon Aug 21 22:56:14 2006
From: novotny at aei.mpg.de (Jason Novotny)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 13:56:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] cgi-bin permissions problems
Message-ID: <44EA1DEE.4080009@aei.mpg.de>


Hi,

   I installed latest mailman distribution following the instructions 
and did

./configure --with-cgi-gid=apache

However, after following the rest of the setup and trying to create a 
test mail list, I invoke localhost/mailman/create

and in my log file I see:

[Mon Aug 21 12:21:14 2006] [error] [client 132.239.132.169] 
(13)Permission den
ied: exec of '/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/create' failed


I do "ls -al" of my cgi-bin directory and I see:

[root at gridsphere cgi-bin]# ls -al
total 236
drwxrwsr-x   2 gridsphere mailman  4096 Aug 21 12:14 .
drwxrwsr-x  20 root       mailman  4096 Mar  9 14:05 ..
-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15646 Aug 21 12:14 admin
-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 admindb
-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 confirm
-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 create
-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15654 Aug 21 12:14 edithtml
-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15654 Aug 21 12:14 listinfo
-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 options
-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 private
-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 rmlist
-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 roster
-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15654 Aug 21 12:14 subscribe

Here's my entry in my Apache httpd.conf:

<VirtualHost lists.gridsphere.org:80>

  <Directory />
       Options Indexes FollowSymLinks MultiViews
       AllowOverride None
       Order allow,deny
       allow from all
  </Directory>

  ServerAdmin jnovotny at ucsd.edu
  DocumentRoot  /var/www/sites/lists.nbirn.net
  ServerName lists.gridsphere.org

  ScriptAlias /mailman/ "/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/"
  Alias   /pipermail/ "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public/"

  ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ "/var/www/sites/lists.nbirn.net/cgi-bin/"

  ErrorLog /etc/httpd/logs/lists_error_log
  CustomLog /etc/httpd/logs/lists_access_log  combined

</VirtualHost>

The funny thing is that if I copy the "create" script from 
/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/ over to my other cgi-bin ScriptAlias 
/var/www/sites/lists.nbirn.net/cgi-bin/ it seems to be invoked, although 
I then get this error in my browser:


    Bug in Mailman version 2.1.8


      We're sorry, we hit a bug!

Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of 
traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited, 
but the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs.

Any help is greatly appreciated!


   Thanks, Jason




From msapiro at value.net  Mon Aug 21 23:31:14 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 14:31:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] cgi-bin permissions problems
In-Reply-To: <44EA1DEE.4080009@aei.mpg.de>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082114311400783aa951fc@msapiro>

Jason Novotny wrote:
>
>I do "ls -al" of my cgi-bin directory and I see:
>
>[root at gridsphere cgi-bin]# ls -al
>total 236
>drwxrwsr-x   2 gridsphere mailman  4096 Aug 21 12:14 .
>drwxrwsr-x  20 root       mailman  4096 Mar  9 14:05 ..
>-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15646 Aug 21 12:14 admin
>-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 admindb
>-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 confirm
>-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 create
>-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15654 Aug 21 12:14 edithtml
>-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15654 Aug 21 12:14 listinfo
>-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 options
>-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 private
>-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 rmlist
>-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 roster
>-rwxr-xr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15654 Aug 21 12:14 subscribe

Did you try running bin/check_perms?

The permissions on all the above wrappers (admin through subscribe)
need to be '-rwxr-sr-x' (2755), not '-rwxr-xr-x' (0755).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz  Tue Aug 22 00:42:47 2006
From: Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz (Steven Jones)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:42:47 +1200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing defaults
References: <44EA1DEE.4080009@aei.mpg.de>
Message-ID: <75CF552F30ECFA439D9B3008906F2A37BACEED@STAWINCOMAILCL1.staff.vuw.ac.nz>

Hi,
 
I need to chnage some defaults on creating a new list, specifically at present making the list's archive automatically private instead of public?
 
thanks
 
Steven


From Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz  Tue Aug 22 00:42:29 2006
From: Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz (Steven Jones)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:42:29 +1200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Possible features
References: <44EA1DEE.4080009@aei.mpg.de>
Message-ID: <75CF552F30ECFA439D9B3008906F2A37BACEEB@STAWINCOMAILCL1.staff.vuw.ac.nz>

Hi,
 
A list owner requested if the subscription could be broken down into two sections, as normal with mailman the list owner has to confirm (etc) whether people can subscibe, or the option allowing anybody from a specific domain to automatically subscribe without any confirmation?
 
can mailman do this now? if not would it be a nice feature?
 
regards
 
Steven
 
 


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug 22 01:45:40 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:45:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing defaults
In-Reply-To: <75CF552F30ECFA439D9B3008906F2A37BACEED@STAWINCOMAILCL1.staff.vuw.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608211645400937ec811931@msapiro>

Steven Jones wrote:
> 
>I need to chnage some defaults on creating a new list, specifically at present making the list's archive automatically private instead of public?


Put

DEFAULT_ARCHIVE_PRIVATE = 1

in mm_cfg.py.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug 22 01:54:33 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:54:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Possible features
In-Reply-To: <75CF552F30ECFA439D9B3008906F2A37BACEEB@STAWINCOMAILCL1.staff.vuw.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608211654330734c7a5283f@msapiro>

Steven Jones wrote:
> 
>A list owner requested if the subscription could be broken down into two sections, as normal with mailman the list owner has to confirm (etc) whether people can subscibe, or the option allowing anybody from a specific domain to automatically subscribe without any confirmation?
> 
>can mailman do this now? if not would it be a nice feature?


See
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=403066&group_id=103&atid=350103>
for a patch for Mailman 2.1.8.

This will be included in Mailman 2.2.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz  Tue Aug 22 02:08:57 2006
From: Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz (Steven Jones)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 12:08:57 +1200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Possible features
Message-ID: <75CF552F30ECFA439D9B3008906F2A37B5F595@STAWINCOMAILCL1.staff.vuw.ac.nz>

Thanks

regards

Steven Jones
ITS Linux/Unix/San System Administrator
Technology Integration Team
Victoria University of Wellington
Phone: +64 4 463 6272 Mobile: +64 27 563 6272

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, 22 August 2006 11:55 a.m.
To: Steven Jones; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Possible features

Steven Jones wrote:
> 
>A list owner requested if the subscription could be broken down into
two sections, as normal with mailman the list owner has to confirm (etc)
whether people can subscibe, or the option allowing anybody from a
specific domain to automatically subscribe without any confirmation?
> 
>can mailman do this now? if not would it be a nice feature?


See
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=403066&group_i
d=103&atid=350103>
for a patch for Mailman 2.1.8.

This will be included in Mailman 2.2.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From vanslyck at gmail.com  Tue Aug 22 03:47:29 2006
From: vanslyck at gmail.com (Carolyn Van Slyck)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 20:47:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python Version Mismatch
In-Reply-To: <PC17402006082020125002181eea8bec@msapiro>
References: <69d8e4160608201236g2a1815c9m57e18bd28964a067@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC17402006082020125002181eea8bec@msapiro>
Message-ID: <69d8e4160608211847r678b7c0fy90e7eaa9ca586f12@mail.gmail.com>

My mistake, they are coming every 5 minutes.  I had an old version of
python and mailman but upgraded python a few months ago and just this
week upgraded mailman.  I downloaded the source and did a configure
and make install.  Perhaps I missed another key step involving python
(maybe it is compiling using the older version?)

Thanks for the crontab workaround.  Since I don't use Japanese or
Korean, I'm happy to just ignore the errors. :-)

Thanks!
Carolyn

On 8/20/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> Carolyn Van Slyck wrote:
>
> >I am getting this email sent to me every 10 minutes and am not sure
> >how to correct the problem.
>
>
> I am puzzled. I am sure this is coming from Mailman's cron/gate_news
> script, but that is run (at least by default) every 5 minutes, not
> every 10.
>
>
> >/var/mailman/pythonlib/japanese/c/euc_jp.py:3: RuntimeWarning: Python
> >C API version mismatch for module _japanese_codecs: This Python has
> >API version 1011, module _japanese_codecs has version 1012.
> >  import codecs, japanese.c._japanese_codecs
> >/var/mailman/pythonlib/korean/hangul.py:24: RuntimeWarning: Python C
> >API version mismatch for module hangul: This Python has API version
> >1011, module hangul has version 1012.
> >  from korean.c.hangul import *
> >
> >I am running python 2.4.3.  I have tried deleting the korean and
> >japanese pythonlib directories and then running make install again,
> >then restarting mailman but this doesn't correct the problem.
>
>
> Did you upgrade Python to 2.4.3 after installing Mailman on an older
> Python? If so, starting with 'configure' followed by 'make install'
> may help.
>
>
> >I would appreciate any ideas for either fixing the issue or at least
> >stopping the email warnings.
>
>
> If the warnings are coming from the cron jobs, you can suppress them by
> editing Mailman's crontab and adding a '-W ignore' option to the
> python commands.
>
> E.g. for a default crontab, you might have something like
>
> 0 8 * * * /usr/bin/python -S /var/mailman/cron/checkdbs
>
> and so on for the others. You could change this to
>
> 0 8 * * * /usr/bin/python -S -W ignore /var/mailman/cron/checkdbs
>
> and similarly for the others.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug 22 04:11:21 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 19:11:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Python Version Mismatch
In-Reply-To: <69d8e4160608211847r678b7c0fy90e7eaa9ca586f12@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082119112103433aa9530c@msapiro>

Carolyn Van Slyck wrote:

>My mistake, they are coming every 5 minutes.  I had an old version of
>python and mailman but upgraded python a few months ago and just this
>week upgraded mailman.  I downloaded the source and did a configure
>and make install.  Perhaps I missed another key step involving python
>(maybe it is compiling using the older version?)


If you have two Python versions on your system, there could be a
conflict. You might try rerunning configure with the --with-python
option.

--with-python=/path/to/python
    Specify an alternative Python interpreter to use for the wrapper
programs. The default is to use the interpreter found first on your
shell's $PATH.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From edwardam at interlix.com  Tue Aug 22 04:57:58 2006
From: edwardam at interlix.com (Edward A. Muller)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:57:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unsubscriptions because of 'invalid value"
Message-ID: <1975731.14821156215478133.JavaMail.root@zimbra1.interlix.com>

We run a mailing list for a customer that uses the MySQL Member Adaptor. We are getting a bunch of the following in the logs and the customer is complaining that the people aren't unsubscribing...

Aug 17 00:07:56 2006 (2806) mailings: deleted user at foo.com; disabled address
Aug 17 00:07:56 2006 (2806) mailings: user at foo.com auto-unsubscribed [reason: invalid value]

I know the MySQL member adaptor isn't really supported, but any help in trying to figure out where/why this is happening would be helpful.

-- 
Interlix, LLC
http://interlix.com



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug 22 06:08:37 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:08:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unsubscriptions because of 'invalid value"
In-Reply-To: <1975731.14821156215478133.JavaMail.root@zimbra1.interlix.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082121083708282ef080a1@msapiro>

Edward A. Muller wrote:

>We run a mailing list for a customer that uses the MySQL Member Adaptor. We are getting a bunch of the following in the logs and the customer is complaining that the people aren't unsubscribing...
>
>Aug 17 00:07:56 2006 (2806) mailings: deleted user at foo.com; disabled address
>Aug 17 00:07:56 2006 (2806) mailings: user at foo.com auto-unsubscribed [reason: invalid value]
>
>I know the MySQL member adaptor isn't really supported, but any help in trying to figure out where/why this is happening would be helpful.


These are essentially normal messages that come from Bouncer.py when a
user is unsubscribed after being disabled (normally for bouncing) and
exhausting the number of 'bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings' set for
the list.

The abnormal part is the 'invalid value' reason. This seems to come
about because there is BounceInfo for the user, but the user's
delivery is not disabled. On cursory inspection, I don't see how this
can happen, but I know there are issues with BounceInfo and 'other'
MemberAdaptors because the code in Bouncer.py calls getBounceInfo()
and then changes things in it without calling setBounceInfo(). This
works as long as the _BounceInfo instance is stored in config.pck when
the list is saved, but not if it is stored externally.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug 22 07:32:28 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:32:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] unsubscriptions because of 'invalid value"
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006082121083708282ef080a1@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608212232280031faf26e9b@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>... I know there are issues with BounceInfo and 'other'
>MemberAdaptors because the code in Bouncer.py calls getBounceInfo()
>and then changes things in it without calling setBounceInfo(). This
>works as long as the _BounceInfo instance is stored in config.pck when
>the list is saved, but not if it is stored externally.


There is a long thread on this beginning at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2005-October/018255.html>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From imre.gergely at astral.ro  Tue Aug 22 08:06:59 2006
From: imre.gergely at astral.ro (Imre Gergely)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 09:06:59 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sending messages after problem gone
Message-ID: <44EA9F03.2030908@astral.ro>


hi

i had some problems with one of my lists, when i sent a message to the list, it
didnt get delivered, because some incorrect member adresses.
the mails landed in /var/spool/mailman/out. now, that the problem is resolved,
how can i resend the messages from out?
i have fedora core 2, with mailman version 2.1.8.


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug 22 17:35:02 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 08:35:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] sending messages after problem gone
In-Reply-To: <44EA9F03.2030908@astral.ro>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608220835020328566363ea@msapiro>

Imre Gergely wrote:
>
>i had some problems with one of my lists, when i sent a message to the list, it
>didnt get delivered, because some incorrect member adresses.
>the mails landed in /var/spool/mailman/out. now, that the problem is resolved,
>how can i resend the messages from out?
>i have fedora core 2, with mailman version 2.1.8.


This is not really a Mailman question, but

login as mailman
run an MUA
navigate to the 'out' folder

At this point, you probably can't just resend the message to the final
recipients because their addresses aren't in the message, so you
probably have to 'bounce' or 'redirect' the messages back to the list
to be sent to all list members.

You could also edit /var/spool/mailman/out to make file1, ..., filen,
each containing one message and then do either

sendmail yourlist at example.com < filex

for each file, or use Mailman's

bin/inject -l yourlist filex 

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu  Tue Aug 22 19:33:33 2006
From: jnguyen at ncmir.ucsd.edu (Jana Nguyen)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:33:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] cgi-bin permissions problems
In-Reply-To: <44EA2E31.2010002@aei.mpg.de>
References: <44EA1DEE.4080009@aei.mpg.de> <44EA26DB.8090609@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
	<44EA2E31.2010002@aei.mpg.de>
Message-ID: <44EB3FED.7070608@ncmir.ucsd.edu>

Have you created the site password? 

/usr/local/mailman/bin/mmsitepass <site passwd>


Jason Novotny wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
>    Thanks everyone for your suggestion-- I did run bin/check_perms and 
> discovered the permissions needed updating. check_perms -f seemed to 
> fix those.
>    However, I'm still getting a 500 error when I try 
> localhost/mailman/create from the web.
>
>    I also made sure that I compiled the cgi-bin exec with the right 
> group, apache:
>
> [root at gridsphere cgi-bin]# strings create | grep apache
> apache
>
>    but I still seem to get:
>
> [Mon Aug 21 14:48:06 2006] [error] [client 132.239.132.180] 
> (13)Permission den
> ied: exec of '/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/create' failed
> [Mon Aug 21 14:48:06 2006] [error] [client 132.239.132.180] Premature 
> end of s
> cript headers: create
>
>
> In my httpd.conf I have the following:
>
> ScriptAlias /mailman/ "/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/"
> Alias   /pipermail/ "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public/"
>
> ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ "/var/www/sites/lists.gridsphere.org/cgi-bin/"
>
>    The weird thing is that I placed a "test" cgi script in the 
> /cgi-bin/ alias and it executes fine. However when I place that same 
> test script into /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/  it doesn't work and I 
> get the same permissions problem from before....
>
> Here is my dir structure on /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin now...
>
> [root at gridsphere cgi-bin]# ls -al /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/
> total 244
> drwxrwsr-x   2 gridsphere mailman  4096 Aug 21 12:38 .
> drwxrwsr-x  20 root       mailman  4096 Mar  9 14:05 ..
> -rwxr-sr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15646 Aug 21 12:14 admin
> -rwxr-sr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 admindb
> -rwxr-sr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 confirm
> -rwxr-sr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 create
> -rwxr-sr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15654 Aug 21 12:14 edithtml
> -rwxr-sr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15654 Aug 21 12:14 listinfo
> -rwxr-sr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 options
> -rwxr-sr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 private
> -rwxr-sr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 rmlist
> -rwxr-sr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15650 Aug 21 12:14 roster
> -rwxr-sr-x   1 gridsphere mailman 15654 Aug 21 12:14 subscribe
>
>    Thanks, Jason
>
>
> Jana Nguyen wrote:
>
>> Try to check your mailman configuration permissions by running:
>>
>> bin/check_perms script. This script will be located in the 
>> /usr/local/mailman
>>
>>>
>>>  ScriptAlias /mailman/ "/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/"
>>>  
>>>
>> ScriptAlias /mailman/  /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/
>>
>>>  Alias   /pipermail/ "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public/"
>>>  
>>>
>> Alias  /pipermail/   /usr/local/mailman/archives/public/
>>
>>>  ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ "/var/www/sites/lists.nbirn.net/cgi-bin/"
>>>  
>>>
>>
>>>  ErrorLog /etc/httpd/logs/lists_error_log
>>>  CustomLog /etc/httpd/logs/lists_access_log  combined
>>>
>>> </VirtualHost>
>>>
>>> The funny thing is that if I copy the "create" script from 
>>> /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/ over to my other cgi-bin ScriptAlias 
>>> /var/www/sites/lists.nbirn.net/cgi-bin/ it seems to be invoked, 
>>> although I then get this error in my browser:
>>>
>>>
>>>    Bug in Mailman version 2.1.8
>>>
>>>
>>>      We're sorry, we hit a bug!
>>>
>>> Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing 
>>> of traceback and other system information has been explicitly 
>>> inhibited, but the webmaster can find this information in the 
>>> Mailman error logs.
>>>
>>> Any help is greatly appreciated!
>>>
>>>
>>>   Thanks, Jason
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>> Mailman-Users mailing list
>>> Mailman-Users at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>>> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
>>> Searchable Archives: 
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>>> Unsubscribe: 
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jnguyen%40ncmir.ucsd.edu 
>>>
>>>
>>> Security Policy: 
>>> http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp 
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>
>



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug 22 20:09:20 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:09:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] cgi-bin permissions problems
In-Reply-To: <44EB3FED.7070608@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608221109200890c2babb2e@msapiro>

Jana Nguyen quoted an off list post.
>
>Jason Novotny wrote:
>
<snip>
>>
>>    but I still seem to get:
>>
>> [Mon Aug 21 14:48:06 2006] [error] [client 132.239.132.180] 
>> (13)Permission den
>> ied: exec of '/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/create' failed
>> [Mon Aug 21 14:48:06 2006] [error] [client 132.239.132.180] Premature 
>> end of s
>> cript headers: create
>>
>>
>> In my httpd.conf I have the following:
>>
>> ScriptAlias /mailman/ "/usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/"
>> Alias   /pipermail/ "/usr/local/mailman/archives/public/"
>>
>> ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ "/var/www/sites/lists.gridsphere.org/cgi-bin/"
>>
>>    The weird thing is that I placed a "test" cgi script in the 
>> /cgi-bin/ alias and it executes fine. However when I place that same 
>> test script into /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/  it doesn't work and I 
>> get the same permissions problem from before....


Try adding

<Directory /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin>
    Options +ExecCGI
</Directory>

to your httpd.conf.

Also, I don't know why you have quotes (") around the directory paths
in your Alias and ScriptAlias directives, but since your

ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ "/var/www/sites/lists.gridsphere.org/cgi-bin/"

apparently works, I guess they don't do any harm.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From settlemy at asel.udel.edu  Tue Aug 22 20:17:55 2006
From: settlemy at asel.udel.edu (Steven Settlemyre)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:17:55 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] system generated emails date/time missing
Message-ID: <44EB4A53.4070604@asel.udel.edu>

Where does mailman get it's date/time from? Whenever I create a new 
list, the confirmation email shows date/time of Jan 1 1970. So i'm 
guessing it is missing, and defaulting to 0. The server's date is 
correct and when I send mail from command line, the time is correct. Any 
ideas?

-- 
Steven Settlemyre
Systems Administrator
Research Dept.

settlemy at asel.udel.edu
302-651-6830



From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug 22 21:21:51 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 12:21:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] system generated emails date/time missing
In-Reply-To: <44EB4A53.4070604@asel.udel.edu>
Message-ID: <PC176020060822122151096829e24ddb@msapiro>

Steven Settlemyre wrote:

>Where does mailman get it's date/time from? Whenever I create a new 
>list, the confirmation email shows date/time of Jan 1 1970. So i'm 
>guessing it is missing, and defaulting to 0. The server's date is 
>correct and when I send mail from command line, the time is correct. Any 
>ideas?


The missing Date: header was fixed in Mailman 2.1.7. See
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1212066&group_id=103&atid=100103>
and
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1301983&group_id=103&atid=300103>.

The outgoing MTA should add the missing Date: header, but if it
doesn't, various MUAs displaying the message will display "0" as you
surmise.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From settlemy at asel.udel.edu  Tue Aug 22 21:37:10 2006
From: settlemy at asel.udel.edu (Steven Settlemyre)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:37:10 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] system generated emails date/time missing
In-Reply-To: <PC176020060822122151096829e24ddb@msapiro>
References: <PC176020060822122151096829e24ddb@msapiro>
Message-ID: <44EB5CE6.8080009@asel.udel.edu>

cool, thanks!

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Steven Settlemyre wrote:
>
>   
>> Where does mailman get it's date/time from? Whenever I create a new 
>> list, the confirmation email shows date/time of Jan 1 1970. So i'm 
>> guessing it is missing, and defaulting to 0. The server's date is 
>> correct and when I send mail from command line, the time is correct. Any 
>> ideas?
>>     
>
>
> The missing Date: header was fixed in Mailman 2.1.7. See
> <http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1212066&group_id=103&atid=100103>
> and
> <http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1301983&group_id=103&atid=300103>.
>
> The outgoing MTA should add the missing Date: header, but if it
> doesn't, various MUAs displaying the message will display "0" as you
> surmise.
>
>   

-- 
Steven Settlemyre
Systems Administrator
Research Dept.

settlemy at asel.udel.edu
302-651-6830



From mengland at mengland.net  Wed Aug 23 06:20:08 2006
From: mengland at mengland.net (Matt England)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:20:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam avoidance, revisited:  best practices?
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060822231712.0451f1b8@matts-laptop>

This is the best email I have yet to find describing how mail.python.org 
proactive kills spam:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2006-March/332443.html

I'm also considering adding these capabilities (which may or may not be 
implicit in the above description) to combat spam:

* Don't allow email from non-subscribers
* Moderate email from new subscribers some period of time (probably a day 
to a week)

Does mail.python.org do either or these things and/or is this generally a 
good practice?

Any other suggestions?

-Matt 



From mengland at mengland.net  Wed Aug 23 14:27:33 2006
From: mengland at mengland.net (Matt England)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 07:27:33 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam avoidance, revisited:  best practices?
In-Reply-To: <44EC3F71.2010008@ipchains.ru>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060822231712.0451f1b8@matts-laptop>
	<44EC3F71.2010008@ipchains.ru>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060823072650.04724ec0@matts-laptop>

At 8/23/2006 06:43 AM, Oleg D. wrote:

>>This is the best email I have yet to find describing how mail.python.org 
>>proactive kills spam:
>>
>>http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2006-March/332443.html
>>
>>I'm also considering adding these capabilities (which may or may not be 
>>implicit in the above description) to combat spam:
>>
>>* Don't allow email from non-subscribers
>>* Moderate email from new subscribers some period of time (probably a day 
>>to a week)
>>
>>Does mail.python.org do either or these things and/or is this generally a 
>>good practice?
>>
>>Any other suggestions?
>
>Good practice is to filter spam with MTA. Not with mailman even.
>--
>Oleg D.

Is that not what this link (mentioned above) states?

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2006-March/332443.html

-Matt 



From perl at ipchains.ru  Wed Aug 23 13:43:45 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg D.)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 15:43:45 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam avoidance, revisited:  best practices?
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060822231712.0451f1b8@matts-laptop>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060822231712.0451f1b8@matts-laptop>
Message-ID: <44EC3F71.2010008@ipchains.ru>


>This is the best email I have yet to find describing how mail.python.org 
>proactive kills spam:
>
>http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2006-March/332443.html
>
>I'm also considering adding these capabilities (which may or may not be 
>implicit in the above description) to combat spam:
>
>* Don't allow email from non-subscribers
>* Moderate email from new subscribers some period of time (probably a day 
>to a week)
>
>Does mail.python.org do either or these things and/or is this generally a 
>good practice?
>
>Any other suggestions?
>
>-Matt 
>
>------------------------------------------------------
>Mailman-Users mailing list
>Mailman-Users at python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
>Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/perl%40ipchains.ru
>
>Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>  
>

Good practice is to filter spam with MTA. Not with mailman even.

-- 
Oleg D.

--
don't believe every word people use to say, they might be wrong.



From perl at ipchains.ru  Wed Aug 23 14:49:27 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg D.)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 16:49:27 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam avoidance, revisited:  best practices?
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060823072650.04724ec0@matts-laptop>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060822231712.0451f1b8@matts-laptop>
	<44EC3F71.2010008@ipchains.ru>
	<6.1.2.0.2.20060823072650.04724ec0@matts-laptop>
Message-ID: <44EC4ED7.3080204@ipchains.ru>

Matt England wrote:

> At 8/23/2006 06:43 AM, Oleg D. wrote:
>
>>> This is the best email I have yet to find describing how 
>>> mail.python.org proactive kills spam:
>>>
>>> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2006-March/332443.html
>>>
>>> I'm also considering adding these capabilities (which may or may not 
>>> be implicit in the above description) to combat spam:
>>>
>>> * Don't allow email from non-subscribers
>>> * Moderate email from new subscribers some period of time (probably 
>>> a day to a week)
>>>
>>> Does mail.python.org do either or these things and/or is this 
>>> generally a good practice?
>>>
>>> Any other suggestions?
>>
>>
>> Good practice is to filter spam with MTA. Not with mailman even.
>> -- 
>> Oleg D.
>
>
> Is that not what this link (mentioned above) states?
>
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2006-March/332443.html
>
> -Matt

Exactly that is. :-)

-- 
Oleg D.

--
don't believe every word people use to say, they might be wrong.



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Wed Aug 23 18:20:10 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 11:20:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam avoidance, revisited:  best practices?
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060822231712.0451f1b8@matts-laptop>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060822231712.0451f1b8@matts-laptop>
Message-ID: <p06240502c112302270f5@[192.168.1.102]>

At 11:20 PM -0500 2006-08-22, Matt England wrote:

>  This is the best email I have yet to find describing how mail.python.org
>  proactive kills spam:
>
>  http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2006-March/332443.html

I've also got an article that will be going up soon on the LOPSA.org 
website that explains, in great detail, what we're doing on 
python.org and where I think we should be going.  If anyone is 
interested, I'll post the URL here when it's up.

>  I'm also considering adding these capabilities (which may or may not be
>  implicit in the above description) to combat spam:
>
>  * Don't allow email from non-subscribers
>  * Moderate email from new subscribers some period of time (probably a day
>  to a week)
>
>  Does mail.python.org do either or these things and/or is this generally a
>  good practice?

You mean, do we do these things at the MTA level?  No.  The MTA has 
no clue as to who is a subscriber and who is not.  These things could 
potentially be done at the Mailman level, however.  Unfortunately, 
while you can configure Mailman to moderate (or reject) all posts 
from non-subscribers, I don't know of any way to configure it to do 
something like what you suggest based on the time of day.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From mengland at mengland.net  Wed Aug 23 18:41:58 2006
From: mengland at mengland.net (Matt England)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 11:41:58 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to set moderator passwd via 'config_list'?
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060823113937.04520af8@matts-laptop>

Is there a way to set a list's moderator password via the 'config_list -i' 
command?  My mailman admin has yet to see a reference in the 'config_list 
-o' output.

We basically want to set the moderator password without having to go into 
the web interface.

-Matt



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Aug 23 18:52:08 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 11:52:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam avoidance, revisited: best practices?
In-Reply-To: <p06240502c112302270f5@192.168.1.102>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060822231712.0451f1b8@matts-laptop>
	<p06240502c112302270f5@192.168.1.102>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00608230952j61d47ca7x1e50f5ddfad072cb@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/23/06, Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:
> >  I'm also considering adding these capabilities (which may or may not be
> >  implicit in the above description) to combat spam:
> >
> >  * Don't allow email from non-subscribers
> >  * Moderate email from new subscribers some period of time (probably a day
> >  to a week)
> >
> >  Does mail.python.org do either or these things and/or is this generally a
> >  good practice?
>
> You mean, do we do these things at the MTA level?  No.  The MTA has
> no clue as to who is a subscriber and who is not.  These things could
> potentially be done at the Mailman level, however.  Unfortunately,
> while you can configure Mailman to moderate (or reject) all posts
> from non-subscribers, I don't know of any way to configure it to do
> something like what you suggest based on the time of day.

I think he meant: auto-moderate new users, and unmoderate them after
some amount of time has passed (e.g., after a day or after a week)

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From andrew at fireboxstudios.com  Wed Aug 23 20:23:28 2006
From: andrew at fireboxstudios.com (Andrew Jones)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:23:28 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Client wants unique archiving method
Message-ID: <85D14EC9-6CE4-4E1F-B559-9A31518CF8A2@fireboxstudios.com>

I just moved a client to Dreamhost from another provider where they  
also had a Mailman discussion list.

Everything is working at Dreamhost, but they have a strange request.  
They want all original posts to go to all subscribers as normal. BUT,  
they want all replies to ONLY go to the original poster. But they  
also want those replies to be archived so the entire list can choose  
to view them or not.

I've looked through all of the Mailman config options and cannot find  
a way to achieve what they want, even though they swear this is the  
way it worked with their old host.

Is this possible, or are they on crack?

AJ



From Steven.Camp at Cerzan.Com  Wed Aug 23 20:14:39 2006
From: Steven.Camp at Cerzan.Com (Steven Camp)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 13:14:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman extension - Web compsition and templates
Message-ID: <44EC9B0F.3030406@Cerzan.Com>


Are there any know ways to extend mailman to add ConstantContact.Com type 
features such as Browser based email composition, Newsletter Templates, View 
Tracking, etc.?

Thank you,

-Steve


From fw at deneb.enyo.de  Wed Aug 23 19:17:24 2006
From: fw at deneb.enyo.de (Florian Weimer)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 19:17:24 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam avoidance, revisited:  best practices?
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060822231712.0451f1b8@matts-laptop> (Matt England's
	message of "Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:20:08 -0500")
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060822231712.0451f1b8@matts-laptop>
Message-ID: <87hd039xsr.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de>

* Matt England:

> I'm also considering adding these capabilities (which may or may not be 
> implicit in the above description) to combat spam:
>
> * Don't allow email from non-subscribers
> * Moderate email from new subscribers some period of time (probably a day 
> to a week)

I've compiled a few instructions for setting up Exim and Mailman such
that Exim rejects non-members at the SMTP level:

  <http://www.enyo.de/fw/software/exim/mailman-smtp-reject.html>

Once you've got a way to query the subscriber list from Exim, you can
configure different actions, of course (such as greylisting, if you
like that).


From mengland at mengland.net  Wed Aug 23 21:14:07 2006
From: mengland at mengland.net (Matt England)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:14:07 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam avoidance, revisited: best practices?
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00608230952j61d47ca7x1e50f5ddfad072cb@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060822231712.0451f1b8@matts-laptop>
	<p06240502c112302270f5@192.168.1.102>
	<6fbe3da00608230952j61d47ca7x1e50f5ddfad072cb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060823141313.04776148@matts-laptop>

At 8/23/2006 11:52 AM, Patrick Bogen wrote:

>I think he meant: auto-moderate new users, and unmoderate them after
>some amount of time has passed (e.g., after a day or after a week)

Yes, that's correct.

Can Mailman do the above (auto-moderate new users, and then automatically 
un-moderate them after a certain duration)?

-Matt 



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Wed Aug 23 22:02:07 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 13:02:07 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Client wants unique archiving method
In-Reply-To: <85D14EC9-6CE4-4E1F-B559-9A31518CF8A2@fireboxstudios.com>
References: <85D14EC9-6CE4-4E1F-B559-9A31518CF8A2@fireboxstudios.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060823124021.063b6a58@crimson-dragon.com>

Andrew Jones sent the message below at 11:23 8/23/2006:
>I just moved a client to Dreamhost from another provider where they
>also had a Mailman discussion list.
>
>Everything is working at Dreamhost, but they have a strange request.
>They want all original posts to go to all subscribers as normal. BUT,
>they want all replies to ONLY go to the original poster. But they
>also want those replies to be archived so the entire list can choose
>to view them or not.
>
>I've looked through all of the Mailman config options and cannot find
>a way to achieve what they want, even though they swear this is the
>way it worked with their old host.
>
>Is this possible, or are they on crack?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

They are on crack. And you really don't want to get into this can of 
worms. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but it is not something 
that would be easy nor reliable. See below for the full explanation.

In the standard mailman distribution, you can set up a list so that 
replies go to the list (called "Reply-To munging" and 
despised/deprecated by some) or to the poster. If you set it up in 
the latter fashion, the e-mail in reply will never hit the mailman 
server and you have no way of archiving it. If you set it up for 
reply to list, everything will go to the list and get archived.

The only possible way to even come close to what they want is to 
modify the mailman code. It would be difficult to do and would be 
fraught with potential problems. Each incoming e-mail would have to 
be examined for a number of things to determine if it was a reply or 
not and who it should go to. This means that the In-Reply-To: header 
must be examined to see if there is a matching message ID in the 
archive. Depending on list size and traffic, the archive size and the 
server's processing load, that could be a long and slow process.

If you found a matching message, you would then have to determine who 
the reply should go to. That task is non-trivial and you would have 
to make a number of assumptions that may or may not be valid. If 
there is only one matching e-mail, you could extract the From: header 
from the original post, but if you have the list configured to hide 
the identity of list members (you have anonymous_list set to Yes), 
you cannot do that.

But what do you do if you have multiple messages in a long thread? Do 
you just send the reply to the most immediate poster or to everyone 
in the chain? Is your assumption on what to do always appropriate, I 
would say that it probably won't be.

What happens if somebody replies to a thread by creating a new post 
that does not have the In-Reply-To: header? What about when somebody 
goes off on a tangent and uses Reply-To in their MUA to post a new 
message to the list? (People do these sorts of thing sometimes, there 
is no way you can reliably account for them).

So you can see why I say they are on crack. Tell them to step back 
and take a deep breath of reality.


Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Wed Aug 23 22:18:36 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 13:18:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam avoidance, revisited: best practices?
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060823141313.04776148@matts-laptop>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060822231712.0451f1b8@matts-laptop>
	<p06240502c112302270f5@192.168.1.102>
	<6fbe3da00608230952j61d47ca7x1e50f5ddfad072cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.2.0.2.20060823141313.04776148@matts-laptop>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060823131459.06418d90@crimson-dragon.com>

Matt England sent the message below at 12:14 8/23/2006:
>At 8/23/2006 11:52 AM, Patrick Bogen wrote:
>
> >I think he meant: auto-moderate new users, and unmoderate them after
> >some amount of time has passed (e.g., after a day or after a week)
>
>Yes, that's correct.
>
>Can Mailman do the above (auto-moderate new users, and then automatically
>un-moderate them after a certain duration)?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

It can do the first part but not the second.

What you need is a script that will check the moderation setting, 
check the time since subscription, and reset the setting if the 
threshold is reached. You would then run that script as a cron job. I 
don't know if there is a way to find the time somebody subscribed, I 
don't think it is stored in the config.pck for the list but it may be 
in a log somewhere.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From andrew at fireboxstudios.com  Wed Aug 23 22:29:15 2006
From: andrew at fireboxstudios.com (Andrew Jones)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 16:29:15 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Client wants unique archiving method
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060823124021.063b6a58@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <85D14EC9-6CE4-4E1F-B559-9A31518CF8A2@fireboxstudios.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060823124021.063b6a58@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <927D00A4-6511-40F2-9B2A-75358CE33AEF@fireboxstudios.com>


On Aug 23, 2006, at 4:02 PM, Dragon wrote:

> They are on crack. And you really don't want to get into this can  
> of worms. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but it is not  
> something that would be easy nor reliable. See below for the full  
> explanation.

Thanks for the quick and (very) detailed response.

Again, I cannot understand why they'd want it to work that way. And  
if it's true that it worked that way on their old host, someone  
must've made those customizations for them.

As is typical with many clients, they think their users are  
borderline retarded. To have a full archive, but only email people  
original posts defeats the purpose of having a discussion list, in my  
opinion.

I told them if they wanted this functionality, they should just  
install a forum :)

Thanks again,

AJ


From Craig at itpartners.co.nz  Wed Aug 23 22:35:43 2006
From: Craig at itpartners.co.nz (Craig Box)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 08:35:43 +1200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Miscreant "moderator request(s) waiting" messages
Message-ID: <87ECFF3F9E2DBD4FBD1F74F9A80BBD1C2DE0F3@penfold.itpartners.co.nz>

I've just migrated a Mailman list from one host to another, by copying
the data, archives and lists dir as suggested in the FAQ section 3.4.

There were some configuration problems with the last machine, so I
didn't get a lot of messages to -owner, and a lot of bounce messages.
When I ended up with the list on the new host, I instantly got 77
moderator request(s) waiting, so I deleted them all and moved on.

The next day, I got the same message - 77 moderator request(s) waiting.
Go to the moderator webpage, no outstanding requests.

I deleted the request.pck and recreated it, and have tried various other
things.  There are no heldmsg- files that match.  The e-mail addresses
on the list are random, and I can't find mention of them on my grep of
the mailman directory.  Every morning at 8am, this message is being
regenerated and sent back to me, and I can't for the life of me, see
where from.

Plot thickens - if I have other requests outstanding (I have accumulated
more spam to clear), then I get two messages, one saying I have 77
moderator request(s) waiting, and one saying I have 3 moderator
request(s) remaining.  Click the web interface, see the three, clear the
three, back to zero.

I've searched the FAQ and list archive and acted on a couple of the
suggestions, but none so far seems to fit.  Any ideas?

Regards
Craig


From aholmes at cleversafe.com  Wed Aug 23 05:42:32 2006
From: aholmes at cleversafe.com (Alan Holmes)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:42:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] setting moderator password with command line
Message-ID: <010901c6c666$2aca6970$1501a8c0@Alanslaptop>

Is there a way to set the moderator password with one of the command line
tools?


From aholmes at cleversafe.com  Wed Aug 23 15:08:06 2006
From: aholmes at cleversafe.com (Alan Holmes)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 08:08:06 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] setting moderator password with command line
Message-ID: <015301c6c6b5$2d135620$1501a8c0@Alanslaptop>

Is there a way to set the moderator password with one of the command line
tools, or by setting an option in a config file and using the config_list
-i.
 
I basically want to set the moderator password without having to go into the
web interface.
 
Alan


From jjloose at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Aug 24 00:23:08 2006
From: jjloose at yahoo.co.uk (Jon Loose)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 22:23:08 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message IDs & Security
Message-ID: <20060823222308.95235.qmail@web25705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

I have just set up a new mailman list, which is working well.  Thanks to the developers for this software.  Very useful indeed.

On looking at the downloadable archives, the message ids are very long indeed (over 100 characters).  I took a look at the same file for this list, and the ids seem shorter.  Is there any way to get shorter message ids?  (This is just a cosmetic issue as regards reading the archives, but important for users.)

Also, as regards security, I would appreciate recommendations of the simplest way to set up a postfix/mailman system with https on apache2.  I've seen the FAQ and am still struggling to get my head around it.

Finally, what is the overall security level of mailman, given that passwords are sent out in monthly reminders to the individuals concerned?  If the answer is "not very secure", are there plans to change this?

Thanks in advance for any help - always much appreciated.


Jon


From mailman at veggiechinese.net  Thu Aug 24 00:27:54 2006
From: mailman at veggiechinese.net (William Yardley)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 15:27:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message IDs & Security
In-Reply-To: <20060823222308.95235.qmail@web25705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20060823222308.95235.qmail@web25705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20060823222753.GA9218@mitch.veggiechinese.net>

On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 10:23:08PM +0000, Jon Loose wrote:

> I have just set up a new mailman list, which is working well.  Thanks
> to the developers for this software.  Very useful indeed.
> 
> On looking at the downloadable archives, the message ids are very long
> indeed (over 100 characters).  I took a look at the same file for this
> list, and the ids seem shorter.  Is there any way to get shorter
> message ids?  (This is just a cosmetic issue as regards reading the
> archives, but important for users.)

Message-Ids are generally set by the user's MUA (i.e., the mailer of the
person who sent the message). It's possible that a lot of people at your
site use a mailer that generates long Message-IDs - some versions of
Outlook come to mind.

w



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug 24 02:09:04 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 17:09:04 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to set moderator passwd via 'config_list'?
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060823113937.04520af8@matts-laptop>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082317090400930588c7c1@msapiro>

Matt England wrote:

>Is there a way to set a list's moderator password via the 'config_list -i' 
>command?  My mailman admin has yet to see a reference in the 'config_list 
>-o' output.


Yes and no.  You can set any list attribute via input to config_list.
For example your input file could contain

mlist.password = 'somevalue'

for the admin password, or

mlist.mod_password = 'somevalue'

for the moderator password. The problem is that somevalue is not the
plain text password. It is the encrypted password. Thus, you need to
put the following 3 lines in the input to config_list

import sha
mlist.password = sha.new('newpassword').hexdigest()
del sha

The third line isn't really necessary, but it avoids a warning
'attribute "sha" ignored' that occurs because of the way config_list
handles its input file. If you want to set the moderator password,
just replace mlist.password with mlist.mod_password.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug 24 02:16:33 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 17:16:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Miscreant "moderator request(s) waiting"
	messages
In-Reply-To: <87ECFF3F9E2DBD4FBD1F74F9A80BBD1C2DE0F3@penfold.itpartners.co.nz>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608231716330562c126a853@msapiro>

Craig Box wrote:
>
>The next day, I got the same message - 77 moderator request(s) waiting.
>Go to the moderator webpage, no outstanding requests.


Short answer - You have two different crontabs running cron/checkdbs
from two different mailman installations.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From Craig at itpartners.co.nz  Thu Aug 24 02:20:44 2006
From: Craig at itpartners.co.nz (Craig Box)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 12:20:44 +1200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Miscreant "moderator request(s) waiting"
	messages
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200608231716330562c126a853@msapiro>
Message-ID: <87ECFF3F9E2DBD4FBD1F74F9A80BBD1C2DE116@penfold.itpartners.co.nz>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> The next day, I got the same message - 77 moderator request(s)
>> waiting. Go to the moderator webpage, no outstanding requests.
> 
> Short answer - You have two different crontabs running cron/checkdbs
> from two different mailman installations. 

root at oldserver:/home/lists/listname/data# ls -la held*.pck | wc -l
77 

Well, don't I feel stupid.  Somehow, after the change, the MX records
must have changed such that the old server starts e-mailling me.  (And
it's not mentioned in the return-path).

Thank you! :)

Craig


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug 24 02:38:51 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 17:38:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] setting moderator password with command line
In-Reply-To: <015301c6c6b5$2d135620$1501a8c0@Alanslaptop>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608231738510718c126a901@msapiro>

Alan Holmes wrote:

>Is there a way to set the moderator password with one of the command line
>tools, or by setting an option in a config file and using the config_list
>-i.


See
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-August/052743.html>.

You could also create a withlist script for this purpose.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jwblist3 at olympus.net  Thu Aug 24 02:46:19 2006
From: jwblist3 at olympus.net (John W. Baxter)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 17:46:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam avoidance, revisited: best practices?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060823131459.06418d90@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <C11244EB.E3BC%jwblist3@olympus.net>

On 8/23/06 1:18 PM, "Dragon" <dragon at crimson-dragon.com> wrote:

> Matt England sent the message below at 12:14 8/23/2006:
>> At 8/23/2006 11:52 AM, Patrick Bogen wrote:
>> 
>>> I think he meant: auto-moderate new users, and unmoderate them after
>>> some amount of time has passed (e.g., after a day or after a week)
>> 
>> Yes, that's correct.
>> 
>> Can Mailman do the above (auto-moderate new users, and then automatically
>> un-moderate them after a certain duration)?
> ---------------- End original message. ---------------------
> 
> It can do the first part but not the second.
> 
> What you need is a script that will check the moderation setting,
> check the time since subscription, and reset the setting if the
> threshold is reached. You would then run that script as a cron job. I
> don't know if there is a way to find the time somebody subscribed, I
> don't think it is stored in the config.pck for the list but it may be
> in a log somewhere.
> 

Or, one could take the position that if a new subscriber turns out to be a
lurker only, it doesn't matter whether she is still marked as moderated in a
few months, or not.  On the other hand, if she does post "properly", some
moderator will decide to remove the moderation.

I'm not sure automation is in order here in the general case.

  --John




From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug 24 02:59:13 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 17:59:13 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message IDs & Security
In-Reply-To: <20060823222308.95235.qmail@web25705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608231759130468c126a7e1@msapiro>

Jon Loose wrote:
>
>On looking at the downloadable archives, the message ids are very long indeed (over 100 characters).  I took a look at the same file for this list, and the ids seem shorter.  Is there any way to get shorter message ids?  (This is just a cosmetic issue as regards reading the archives, but important for users.)


For messages in the archive, the Message-Id: is set by the poster's MUA
(or maybe MTA if the MUA is non-compliant). Mailman has nothing to do
with it.


>Also, as regards security, I would appreciate recommendations of the simplest way to set up a postfix/mailman system with https on apache2.  I've seen the FAQ and am still struggling to get my head around it.


Admittedly,
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.027.htp>
could at least be better organazed, but that's the downside of a FAQ
which is "wiki-like".

That said, perhaps after you've gotten at least partially around it,
you could ask a more specific question.


>Finally, what is the overall security level of mailman, given that passwords are sent out in monthly reminders to the individuals concerned?  If the answer is "not very secure", are there plans to change this?


Member passwords provide moderate security against someone
inadvertently or maliciously changing a member's options. Currently,
anyone concerned about the monthly reminder can turn it off. In any
case the reminder will go away completely in Mailman 2.2. The member
passwords, unlike the admin and moderator passwords, are stored in
cleartext in the list's config.pck file so are subject to compromise
by that route if an unauthorized person can gain access to the file.
At some future point beyond the initial 2.2 release, a more flexible
and secure user/moderator/admin authentication system will be
implemented - maybe in a later 2.2 release or maybe in 3.0.

I believe the admin and moderation functions of Mailman are currently
quite secure (although somewhat inflexible) as long as the passwords
aren't widely known.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From mengland at mengland.net  Thu Aug 24 03:15:54 2006
From: mengland at mengland.net (Matt England)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:15:54 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam avoidance, revisited:  best practices?
In-Reply-To: <p06240502c112302270f5@[192.168.1.102]>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060822231712.0451f1b8@matts-laptop>
	<p06240502c112302270f5@[192.168.1.102]>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060823201409.04723ec0@matts-laptop>

At 8/23/2006 11:20 AM, Brad Knowles wrote:
>At 11:20 PM -0500 2006-08-22, Matt England wrote:
>
> >  This is the best email I have yet to find describing how mail.python.org
> >  proactive kills spam:
> >
> >  http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2006-March/332443.html
>
>I've also got an article that will be going up soon on the LOPSA.org
>website that explains, in great detail, what we're doing on
>python.org and where I think we should be going.  If anyone is
>interested, I'll post the URL here when it's up.

I'm very interested in this, and I know others that will be, too.  Brad, 
can you post a followup to the list (and copy me directly if you can 
remember to do so) when this article appears on LOPSA.org?

-Matt
Dispersed Storage:  http://cleversafe.org 



From mengland at mengland.net  Thu Aug 24 03:26:54 2006
From: mengland at mengland.net (Matt England)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:26:54 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Enable moderated list to always accept some
 emails?
In-Reply-To: <p06240507c102e432e3dc@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060811175513.0623fef0@matts-laptop>
	<p06240507c102e432e3dc@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060823202416.048d0580@matts-laptop>

At 8/11/2006 08:57 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
>At 5:57 PM -0500 2006-08-11, Matt England wrote:
>
> >  I want to enable a moderated list (that moderates emails from non
> >  subscribers) to always accept email that comes with a certain header
> >  attached (in this case, a header appended by http://mail2forum.com/
> >  software) even if the sender's address is not subscribed to the email 
> list.
> >
> >  Does GNUMailman some means to do this?
>
>You could have the mail2forum software add an appropriate "Approved:"
>header to the message, and that would go through.

Ok, so I've researched how to do this (and it appears as simple as adding 
an "Approved: <list-admin-password>" header to the outgoing email of 
mail2forum.com), but said implementation requires me to embed, in clear 
text, the list admin password in the mail2forum software sitting on my 
webserver.  Not cool.

Whilelisting the email address doesn't work either, because the From: email 
address is different per forum poster.

The best answer I can see is to patch Mailman somehow to have it allow the 
header unique to Mail2forum.  Could anyone provide me any ideas how 
where/how to best apply this patch?  Should I post this to the devs list?

-Matt 



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Aug 24 03:25:01 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:25:01 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam avoidance, revisited: best practices?
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00608230952j61d47ca7x1e50f5ddfad072cb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060822231712.0451f1b8@matts-laptop>	
	<p06240502c112302270f5@192.168.1.102>
	<6fbe3da00608230952j61d47ca7x1e50f5ddfad072cb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240505c112b0260faa@[192.168.1.102]>

At 11:52 AM -0500 2006-08-23, Patrick Bogen wrote:

>  I think he meant: auto-moderate new users, and unmoderate them after
>  some amount of time has passed (e.g., after a day or after a week)

No, there is no built-in automated method of doing that.  You could 
configure the list so that new subscribers are automatically 
moderated, and then set up a cron job to run a Python script so as to 
un-moderate users who have been subscribed for a while, but that 
would not be a standard part of the Mailman system.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Aug 24 03:30:21 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:30:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message IDs & Security
In-Reply-To: <20060823222308.95235.qmail@web25705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20060823222308.95235.qmail@web25705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240506c112b1154794@[192.168.1.102]>

At 10:23 PM +0000 2006-08-23, Jon Loose wrote:

>  On looking at the downloadable archives, the message ids are very long
>  indeed (over 100 characters).  I took a look at the same file for this
>  list, and the ids seem shorter.  Is there any way to get shorter message
>  ids?

Not without changing the Mailman source code, no.

>  Also, as regards security, I would appreciate recommendations of the
>  simplest way to set up a postfix/mailman system with https on apache2.
>  I've seen the FAQ and am still struggling to get my head around it.

The simplest stuff I know of is already in the documentation and the 
FAQ.  If you know of better, or can find better, please let us know.

>  Finally, what is the overall security level of mailman, given that
>  passwords are sent out in monthly reminders to the individuals
>  concerned?  If the answer is "not very secure", are there plans to
>  change this?

I would say that the overall security level of Mailman is moderate, 
if you configure the system so that all web interaction happens over 
SSL-encrypted connections.  Otherwise, it would be lower.

Yes, there are plans to improve this -- see 
<http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Mailman+2.2>.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug 24 04:08:01 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 19:08:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Enable moderated list to always accept
	someemails?
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060823202416.048d0580@matts-laptop>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608231908010328f7176fa9@msapiro>

Matt England wrote:

>At 8/11/2006 08:57 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
>>
>>You could have the mail2forum software add an appropriate "Approved:"
>>header to the message, and that would go through.
>
>Ok, so I've researched how to do this (and it appears as simple as adding 
>an "Approved: <list-admin-password>" header to the outgoing email of 
>mail2forum.com), but said implementation requires me to embed, in clear 
>text, the list admin password in the mail2forum software sitting on my 
>webserver.  Not cool.
>
>Whilelisting the email address doesn't work either, because the From: email 
>address is different per forum poster.


If USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER = Yes in mm_cfg.py, the address checked against
the whitelist (accept_these_nonmembers) is the address in the Sender:
header if any. This may help.


>The best answer I can see is to patch Mailman somehow to have it allow the 
>header unique to Mail2forum.  Could anyone provide me any ideas how 
>where/how to best apply this patch?  Should I post this to the devs list?


No need to post to Mailman-Developers. Use a custom handler. See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.067.htp>.

The handler needs to be inserted in the pipeline somewhere before
Moderate, but immediately before or after Approve seems the logical
place. Look at Mailman/Handlers/Approve.py for an idea of what to do.

You could just patch Approve.py, but then you have to reapply the patch
after any update. A custom handler installed per the FAQ will survive
any updates/upgrades.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From Jason at weatherserver.net  Thu Aug 24 04:49:36 2006
From: Jason at weatherserver.net (Jason)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 22:49:36 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List Copy
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200608232249.AA49360006@weatherserver.net>

I need to move 1 list from one server to another server. Which files do I 
need to copy, I already have mailman setup and running on the new server.





From timewind at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 24 13:19:19 2006
From: timewind at hotmail.com (Stefan Sundberg)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 13:19:19 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender address..
Message-ID: <BAY109-F9A55CDA8104EE988A4B5DCE440@phx.gbl>

Hi!

I am using Mailman on the FreeBSD + Mailscanner and Sendmail and it works 
great. I have a question however regarding the sender address in the emails 
which is sent to the list members. Currently the address looks like this:

mylist-bounces at mysite.com for listmember at listmemberdomain.com

I only want to show the original sender address:

listmember at listmemberdomain.com

Is it possible to configure Mailman to change the list sender address like 
above?

Regards
Stefan Sundberg




From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug 24 15:48:35 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 06:48:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender address..
In-Reply-To: <BAY109-F9A55CDA8104EE988A4B5DCE440@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608240648350062b5c206e1@msapiro>

Stefan Sundberg wrote:
>
>I have a question however regarding the sender address in the emails 
>which is sent to the list members. Currently the address looks like this:
>
>mylist-bounces at mysite.com for listmember at listmemberdomain.com
>
>I only want to show the original sender address:
>
>listmember at listmemberdomain.com
>
>Is it possible to configure Mailman to change the list sender address like 
>above?


See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq02.003.htp>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From pdbogen at gmail.com  Thu Aug 24 16:25:19 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 09:25:19 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman extension - Web compsition and templates
In-Reply-To: <44EC9B0F.3030406@Cerzan.Com>
References: <44EC9B0F.3030406@Cerzan.Com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00608240725j39b1df1tcb081c4294626126@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/23/06, Steven Camp <Steven.Camp at cerzan.com> wrote:
> Are there any know ways to extend mailman to add ConstantContact.Com type
> features such as Browser based email composition, Newsletter Templates, View
> Tracking, etc.?

Not that I've heard about on list. There are many webmail solutions
that will give you, at least, browser-based email composition, though.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From soapy867 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 24 16:24:38 2006
From: soapy867 at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 07:24:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can mailman filter on a word in the body of an
	email?
Message-ID: <20060824142438.67573.qmail@web36909.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi;

I searched the archive, but maybe not well enough.

Can mailman filter emails based on words in the body
of an email, similar to majordomo?

Thanks much in advance for the info



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Thu Aug 24 16:37:14 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 09:37:14 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam avoidance, revisited: best practices?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060823131459.06418d90@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060822231712.0451f1b8@matts-laptop>
	<p06240502c112302270f5@192.168.1.102>
	<6fbe3da00608230952j61d47ca7x1e50f5ddfad072cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.2.0.2.20060823141313.04776148@matts-laptop>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060823131459.06418d90@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00608240737s472b0bbdv28ecd3194727cb7f@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/23/06, Dragon <dragon at crimson-dragon.com> wrote:
> What you need is a script that will check the moderation setting,
> check the time since subscription, and reset the setting if the
> threshold is reached. You would then run that script as a cron job. I
> don't know if there is a way to find the time somebody subscribed, I
> don't think it is stored in the config.pck for the list but it may be
> in a log somewhere.

An easier solution might be to just maintain a small DB for the cron
script that knows the first time it's 'seen' a given member. You only
need to store data about currently moderated members, so it should
keep the DB relatively small.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Thu Aug 24 16:40:33 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 09:40:33 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] List Copy
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200608232249.AA49360006@weatherserver.net>
References: <WorldClient-F200608232249.AA49360006@weatherserver.net>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00608240740l584cf6au9184920fd8b57464@mail.gmail.com>

See FAQ 3.4: <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.004.htp>

On 8/23/06, Jason <Jason at weatherserver.net> wrote:
> I need to move 1 list from one server to another server. Which files do I
> need to copy, I already have mailman setup and running on the new server.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pdbogen%40gmail.com
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>


-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug 24 16:41:01 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 07:41:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can mailman filter on a word in the body of
	anemail?
In-Reply-To: <20060824142438.67573.qmail@web36909.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608240741010546c1fb5303@msapiro>

Steve wrote:
>
>Can mailman filter emails based on words in the body
>of an email, similar to majordomo?


No.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From mengland at mengland.net  Thu Aug 24 17:43:21 2006
From: mengland at mengland.net (Matt England)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 10:43:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam avoidance, revisited: best practices?
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00608240737s472b0bbdv28ecd3194727cb7f@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <6.1.2.0.2.20060822231712.0451f1b8@matts-laptop>
	<p06240502c112302270f5@192.168.1.102>
	<6fbe3da00608230952j61d47ca7x1e50f5ddfad072cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.2.0.2.20060823141313.04776148@matts-laptop>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060823131459.06418d90@crimson-dragon.com>
	<6fbe3da00608240737s472b0bbdv28ecd3194727cb7f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060824104221.04588810@matts-laptop>

Re: Spam avoidance, revisited: best practices?

Thanks all for the guidance and suggestions.  It's good stuff.  I'm always 
open to further ideas.

-Matt



From gary.chris at comcast.net  Thu Aug 24 17:57:24 2006
From: gary.chris at comcast.net (Gary Hall)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 11:57:24 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need to stop mailman
Message-ID: <44EDCC64.3080208@comcast.net>

Hi Guy's,

Problem: Mailman is sending out unsolicited emails and I want to clear 
out the remaining emails.

I will stop the service (at the machine itself) by:

/usr/local/mailman/bin/mailmanctl stop


The list in question is sending out unsolicited emails according to the person who once a month sends out an advertisement for his company. I have asked for examples and I am being stonewalled - don't know why he won't send me an example. He is the only one authorized to send mail - I set that myself.

I am not only the list owner, but I am the only one with passwords to the root and list. I have removed the network cable from the server and will access the server on site to type in the code above. After typing in the "stop" code I will reattach the network cable so I can view the root via secure shell at my office. After that I can use the html interface to view the list settings.

Question: What do I look for? Have I missed anything? Is there a "file" that holds emails that need to be sent out? Has anyone else had this problem? Is this guy blowing smoke up my *(^&%?

Thanks,

Warm regards,

Gary

.


From ki at knifecenter.com  Thu Aug 24 18:43:56 2006
From: ki at knifecenter.com (Ki Song)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 12:43:56 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] To: Address Modification
Message-ID: <C1134F8C.305BA%ki@knifecenter.com>

Is there a way to configure mailman so that the To: address is the actual
address of the recipient, instead of the list's address?
For example, when I send a message the the list, mailman-users at python.org,
could it be setup where the To: address of that message is specific to each
subscriber?

So, if ki at knifecenter.com is subscribed to mailman-users at python.org, and a
message is sent to mailman-users at python.org, mailman-users at python.org sends
a message to ki at knifecenter.com, addressed to ki at knifecenter.com, not to
mailman-users at python.org.




From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Thu Aug 24 19:02:38 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 10:02:38 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] To: Address Modification
In-Reply-To: <C1134F8C.305BA%ki@knifecenter.com>
References: <C1134F8C.305BA%ki@knifecenter.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060824095852.06358d88@crimson-dragon.com>

Ki Song wrote:
>Is there a way to configure mailman so that the To: address is the actual
>address of the recipient, instead of the list's address?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Search the FAQ for "personalization"

That should always be the first place to go to look for answers 
followed by searching the list archives.

Links to both the FAQ and the archives are in the footer of every 
e-mail posted to this list.


Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Aug 24 19:11:26 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 12:11:26 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] To: Address Modification
In-Reply-To: <C1134F8C.305BA%ki@knifecenter.com>
References: <C1134F8C.305BA%ki@knifecenter.com>
Message-ID: <p06240503c1138dffa806@[192.168.1.102]>

At 12:43 PM -0400 2006-08-24, Ki Song wrote:

>  Is there a way to configure mailman so that the To: address is the actual
>  address of the recipient, instead of the list's address?

That's called "full personalization".  Search the FAQ for the string 
"personalization", and read the various items that have been returned.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Aug 24 19:10:19 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 12:10:19 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need to stop mailman
In-Reply-To: <44EDCC64.3080208@comcast.net>
References: <44EDCC64.3080208@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <p06240502c1138c885043@[192.168.1.102]>

At 11:57 AM -0400 2006-08-24, Gary Hall wrote:

>  Question: What do I look for? Have I missed anything? Is there a "file"
>  that holds emails that need to be sent out?

Some messages will have been delivered by Mailman to your MTA, so you 
will also need to clean out those messages.  How those are stored by 
your MTA will vary by the program, and you'll need to use their 
resources (books, online documentation, FAQs, mailing lists, etc...) 
in order to learn how to properly clean out their queues.

Mailman also maintains its own queue of messages that are going to be 
sent out, but which have not yet been handed to the MTA.  Look in 
/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out, or /var/mailman/qfiles/out, or 
wherever it is that your OS puts the Mailman queue directory 
structure.

>                                               Has anyone else had this
>  problem?

Not the way you've described it, no.

>            Is this guy blowing smoke up my *(^&%?

That would be my impression, but perhaps there is something happening 
that you are not aware of and have not included in your description 
of the problem.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From jwblist3 at olympus.net  Thu Aug 24 19:41:52 2006
From: jwblist3 at olympus.net (John W. Baxter)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 10:41:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender address..
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200608240648350062b5c206e1@msapiro>
Message-ID: <C11332F0.E3F3%jwblist3@olympus.net>

On 8/24/06 6:48 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <msapiro at value.net> wrote:

> See
> <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq02.003.htp>.

Unfortunately, both domains used in the examples at the top of that FAQ
entry exist (although the FQDNs of the hosts mailman and poster within those
domains do not, so having the FAQ as is isn't TOO bad).

Is there any interest in sanitizing the FAQ by adjusting examples to follow
RFC 2606 as closely as possible?  I'm reasonably sure that 2.003 isn't the
only entry which could use adjustment.

"As closely as possible" because we wouldn't want to confuse things by
putting the mailman server AND the poster both into the
example.{com,org,net} domains.  But we could use mailman.example or
mailman.something.example for the server and poster.example.com for the
poster without TOO much confusion.

  --John




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Aug 24 20:11:28 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 13:11:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender address..
In-Reply-To: <C11332F0.E3F3%jwblist3@olympus.net>
References: <C11332F0.E3F3%jwblist3@olympus.net>
Message-ID: <p06240506c1139b6e007a@[192.168.1.102]>

At 10:41 AM -0700 2006-08-24, John W. Baxter wrote:

>  Is there any interest in sanitizing the FAQ by adjusting examples to follow
>  RFC 2606 as closely as possible?  I'm reasonably sure that 2.003 isn't the
>  only entry which could use adjustment.

Sure, that's a great idea.  The Mailman FAQ Wizard is a 
community-supported facility, and all the information you need for 
making updates or creating entire new entries is provided on the 
page.  In a way, this is kind of like a wiki, although it has a much 
simpler syntax, and is a lot easier than most wikis that I've 
encountered.

If you're up for it, please go ahead and make the appropriate changes.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From anne.ramey at ncmail.net  Thu Aug 24 22:00:56 2006
From: anne.ramey at ncmail.net (Anne Ramey)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:00:56 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a Bug during server move
Message-ID: <44EE0578.9010507@ncmail.net>

I'm moving my mailman lists to a new server and when I go to the web 
interface, I now get:


    Bug in Mailman version 2.1.8


      We're sorry, we hit a bug!

Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of 
traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited, 
but the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs.

But there is no information in the Mailman logs or the apache logs about 
this error and my posts to the lists fail.  Any pointers would be much 
appreciated.


-- 
Anne Ramey




From anne.ramey at ncmail.net  Thu Aug 24 22:05:51 2006
From: anne.ramey at ncmail.net (Anne Ramey)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:05:51 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a Bug during server move
Message-ID: <44EE069F.7020700@ncmail.net>

OK, my cgi-bin was missing the suid.  Now all I need to figure out is my 
post failures.

-- 
Anne Ramey




From atrick at prin.edu  Thu Aug 24 21:56:20 2006
From: atrick at prin.edu (Allan Trick)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:56:20 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824145604.02cedb30@mail.prin.edu>

Forgot to mention -- I'm running Mailman 2.1.5.

Allan 



From atrick at prin.edu  Thu Aug 24 21:55:48 2006
From: atrick at prin.edu (Allan Trick)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:55:48 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824145201.02f44280@mail.prin.edu>

Anyone have a clue as to why one of our people might not be receiving 
messages he is sending to lists to which he is subscribed?  I've 
checked and see his address on the membership list for each 
list.  The "mod" box is unchecked.  (I'm also subscribed to these 
lists and received all the messages he sent out.)  But he hasn't 
received any of them.

My first thought was a filter or rule on his local email client.  But 
I don't see any evidence of that.  Therefore I'm suspicious there's a 
setting somewhere in Mailman that is preventing his messages from 
being sent to himself.

Thanks in advance!

Allan



From perl at ipchains.ru  Thu Aug 24 22:18:08 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg D.)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 0:18:08 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a Bug during server move
In-Reply-To: <44EE0578.9010507@ncmail.net>
References: <44EE0578.9010507@ncmail.net>
Message-ID: <b529eb83d4241a88b9beb2ae59053288@localhost>



On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:07:48 -0400, Anne Ramey <anne.ramey at ncmail.net> wrote:
>
> Oleg D. wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:00:56 -0400, Anne Ramey <anne.ramey at ncmail.net>
> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm moving my mailman lists to a new server and when I go to the web
>>> interface, I now get:
>>>
>>>
>>>     Bug in Mailman version 2.1.8
>>>
>>>
>>>       We're sorry, we hit a bug!
>>>
>>> Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of
>>> traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited,
>>> but the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs.
>>>
>>> But there is no information in the Mailman logs or the apache logs
> about
>>> this error and my posts to the lists fail.  Any pointers would be much
>>> appreciated.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Anne Ramey
>>>
>>
>>
>> Is there any log messages in /var/mailman/logs/error or somewhere esle
> you store your mailman ``var-prefix''?
>>
>>
> No, there was nothing.  I finally figured out that my permissions lost
> the suid in transfer.  I can now access my web portion.  Now I just need
> to test if my post failures were related.
>
> Thank you for your response.
>
> Anne
>
>


It is a good practice to use `$PREFIX/mailman/bin/check_perms` after setting up
a new mailman (;

--
don't believe every word people use to say, they might be wrong.




From perl at ipchains.ru  Thu Aug 24 22:22:47 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg D.)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 0:22:47 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824145201.02f44280@mail.prin.edu>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824145201.02f44280@mail.prin.edu>
Message-ID: <488880f74c7f986cea963cf4bb58600f@localhost>




On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:55:48 -0500, Allan Trick <atrick at prin.edu> wrote:
> Anyone have a clue as to why one of our people might not be receiving
> messages he is sending to lists to which he is subscribed?  I've
> checked and see his address on the membership list for each
> list.  The "mod" box is unchecked.  (I'm also subscribed to these
> lists and received all the messages he sent out.)  But he hasn't
> received any of them.
> 
> My first thought was a filter or rule on his local email client.  But
> I don't see any evidence of that.  Therefore I'm suspicious there's a
> setting somewhere in Mailman that is preventing his messages from
> being sent to himself.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Allan
> 

Seems like there's some problem in user's settings, did he checked ``Sent my own posts to list to me'' or some like that?

-- 
don't believe every word people use to say, they might be wrong.



From perl at ipchains.ru  Thu Aug 24 22:02:32 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg D.)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 0:02:32 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a Bug during server move
In-Reply-To: <44EE0578.9010507@ncmail.net>
References: <44EE0578.9010507@ncmail.net>
Message-ID: <4928a9dd4088fa5437a01fc8565b0ba2@localhost>



On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:00:56 -0400, Anne Ramey <anne.ramey at ncmail.net> wrote:
> I'm moving my mailman lists to a new server and when I go to the web
> interface, I now get:
>
>
>     Bug in Mailman version 2.1.8
>
>
>       We're sorry, we hit a bug!
>
> Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem. Printing of
> traceback and other system information has been explicitly inhibited,
> but the webmaster can find this information in the Mailman error logs.
>
> But there is no information in the Mailman logs or the apache logs about
> this error and my posts to the lists fail.  Any pointers would be much
> appreciated.
>
>
> --
> Anne Ramey


Is there any log messages in /var/mailman/logs/error or somewhere esle you
store your mailman ``var-prefix''?

--
don't believe every word people use to say, they might be wrong.



From atrick at prin.edu  Thu Aug 24 22:51:38 2006
From: atrick at prin.edu (Allan Trick)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:51:38 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
In-Reply-To: <44EE0A1C.9080307@music.memphis.edu>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824145201.02f44280@mail.prin.edu>
	<44EE0A1C.9080307@music.memphis.edu>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824154749.02df8990@mail.prin.edu>

At 03:20 PM 8/24/2006, Dan wrote:

>1) There IS a setting to choose whether or not to receive one's own 
>posts on the users options page. On the administrative membership 
>management page it's the "not metoo" column. Check to see if that's checked.

"not metoo" is not checked.  However, "no dupes" WAS checked.  I've 
unchecked that field for the affected users.  Think that could be the 
culprit?  I'm going to wait until we have another broadcast email 
going out to see the results.

>2) Is it a gmail account? Gmail (and possibly others) filter out by 
>message ID anything that came from the the recipient.

Nope, not Gmail.  But good to know of that behavior; it might crop up 
as a question in the future from one of our users.

Oleg also wrote:

>Seems like there's some problem in user's settings, did he checked 
>``Sent my own posts to list to me'' or some like that?

That option is set to "Yes" for the users I'm dealing with.  So I'm 
mystified--if it's not the settings change I described above.

Thanks, guys!

Allan 



From jwblist3 at olympus.net  Fri Aug 25 00:14:15 2006
From: jwblist3 at olympus.net (John W. Baxter)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:14:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender address..
In-Reply-To: <p06240506c1139b6e007a@[192.168.1.102]>
Message-ID: <C11372C7.E40B%jwblist3@olympus.net>

On 8/24/06 11:11 AM, "Brad Knowles" <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:

> At 10:41 AM -0700 2006-08-24, John W. Baxter wrote:
> 
>>  Is there any interest in sanitizing the FAQ by adjusting examples to follow
>>  RFC 2606 as closely as possible?  I'm reasonably sure that 2.003 isn't the
>>  only entry which could use adjustment.
> 
> Sure, that's a great idea.  The Mailman FAQ Wizard is a
> community-supported facility, and all the information you need for
> making updates or creating entire new entries is provided on the
> page.  In a way, this is kind of like a wiki, although it has a much
> simpler syntax, and is a lot easier than most wikis that I've
> encountered.
> 
> If you're up for it, please go ahead and make the appropriate changes.

OK, thanks.  I was volunteering, but didn't want to forge ahead without
letting the idea be visible for a while.  I'll wait a while longer for a
possible "veto".

(More to do during my "off duty" hours.  Say I, who got nine pages around
03:15 yesterday (local time, unfortunately) from our monitors.)

  --John




From atrick at prin.edu  Fri Aug 25 00:23:51 2006
From: atrick at prin.edu (Allan Trick)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:23:51 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824154749.02df8990@mail.prin.edu>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824145201.02f44280@mail.prin.edu>
	<44EE0A1C.9080307@music.memphis.edu>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20060824154749.02df8990@mail.prin.edu>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824172048.02ff4980@mail.prin.edu>

Getting more reports now of other internal users (we have people 
subscribed within our firewall on our Exchange mail server as well as 
people outside with all other kinds of email addresses) not getting 
all messages.  In each case, it sounds like they get ONE message, 
whereas they're on between 4 and 20 different lists.  They should be 
getting 4-20 copies of the same message (one for each list they're 
on).  But they're only getting ONE.  I can't see anything different 
in the settings for the one successful list (not the same one for all users).

Is it possible that Exchange is trying to be helpful by not 
delivering the additional messages since they're all the same?  There 
is nothing in the Junk folder, but it seems logical that the mail 
system might be interfering with the mail delivery here.  We just 
went to Exchange; previously we were on sendmail and everything worked OK.

Allan 



From atrick at prin.edu  Fri Aug 25 00:57:38 2006
From: atrick at prin.edu (Allan Trick)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:57:38 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
In-Reply-To: <EF00F108-CDE3-4BC2-8498-A8DCED96C6B3@music.memphis.edu>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824145201.02f44280@mail.prin.edu>
	<44EE0A1C.9080307@music.memphis.edu>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20060824154749.02df8990@mail.prin.edu>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20060824172048.02ff4980@mail.prin.edu>
	<EF00F108-CDE3-4BC2-8498-A8DCED96C6B3@music.memphis.edu>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824175514.02ff3e48@mail.prin.edu>

At 05:53 PM 8/24/2006, Dan Phillips wrote:

>That's what the nodupes setting is supposed to prevent. IIRC, you 
>said you cleared that flag?

Actually, looks like the nodupes box is checked on most if not all of 
our user records.  Each school year we dump and reimport all the 
addresses for all our lists (because we don't have a direct link to 
Exchange or our Banner administration system).  I guess when I did 
the import everything came in with nodupes checked.

Is there a global way to uncheck that for everyone on all our 
lists?  I certainly don't want to go in to each person's record and 
uncheck that box.  :-)

Thx,

Allan 



From phorst at speakeasy.net  Fri Aug 25 01:54:40 2006
From: phorst at speakeasy.net (Peter Horst)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:54:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] qmail setup question
Message-ID: <44EE3C40.6040205@speakeasy.net>

Hi, I'm trying to set up Mailman on a Fedora Core 5 system running 
qmail. I'm using the current yum (rpm) package of Mailman.

The 2.1 Installation Manual says:

"Then make your aliases:
.qmail => mailman at ...?s letters
.qmail-owner => mailman-owner?s letters"

I can't parse this - can someone break it down for me? What does 
"mailman at ...'s letters" mean?

Thanks, hope this is not too dumb.

Peter


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug 25 02:10:48 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:10:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender address..
In-Reply-To: <C11372C7.E40B%jwblist3@olympus.net>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608241710480578ddf88312@msapiro>

John W. Baxter wrote:
>
>OK, thanks.  I was volunteering, but didn't want to forge ahead without
>letting the idea be visible for a while.  I'll wait a while longer for a
>possible "veto".


I agree with Brad and welcome your help.

I try to be diligent about using example.com as the domain in stuff
that I write, but I'm sure I slip at least occasionally.

>From now on, I'll try to 'correct' inappropriate domains in stuff I'm
editing.


>(More to do during my "off duty" hours.  Say I, who got nine pages around
>03:15 yesterday (local time, unfortunately) from our monitors.)


Ouch!

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug 25 02:42:26 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:42:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a Bug during server move
In-Reply-To: <44EE069F.7020700@ncmail.net>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082417422605789b30b83c@msapiro>

Anne Ramey wrote:

>OK, my cgi-bin was missing the suid.  Now all I need to figure out is my 
>post failures.


Is $prefix/mail/mailman also missing SETGID?

If that's not it, does your MTA use aliases for Mailman, and if so, are
they there?

What's in the MTA log for an attempted post?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug 25 02:51:12 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:51:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824145201.02f44280@mail.prin.edu>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082417511200621d0d5eca@msapiro>

Allan Trick wrote:

>Anyone have a clue as to why one of our people might not be receiving 
>messages he is sending to lists to which he is subscribed?  I've 
>checked and see his address on the membership list for each 
>list.  The "mod" box is unchecked.  (I'm also subscribed to these 
>lists and received all the messages he sent out.)  But he hasn't 
>received any of them.
>
>My first thought was a filter or rule on his local email client.  But 
>I don't see any evidence of that.  Therefore I'm suspicious there's a 
>setting somewhere in Mailman that is preventing his messages from 
>being sent to himself.


As Oleg points out, there is a user setting called "Receive your own
posts to the list?" on the user options page and "not metoo" on the
Membership Management...->Membership List pages.

If that is not the answer, perhaps the user is using a gmail.com
address. Gmail has a <sarcasm> wonderful </sarcasm> feature that
ignores the received post because it is a duplicate of an already
saved message (the sent post).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug 25 02:58:17 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:58:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824175514.02ff3e48@mail.prin.edu>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082417581702181d0d5f6b@msapiro>

Allan Trick wrote:
>
>Actually, looks like the nodupes box is checked on most if not all of 
>our user records.  Each school year we dump and reimport all the 
>addresses for all our lists (because we don't have a direct link to 
>Exchange or our Banner administration system).  I guess when I did 
>the import everything came in with nodupes checked.


First of all, nodups will only affect this issue if the user's address
in in a To: or Cc: header of the post. If not, nodups is not the
answer.


>Is there a global way to uncheck that for everyone on all our 
>lists?  I certainly don't want to go in to each person's record and 
>uncheck that box.  :-)


First of all, look at the new_member_options setting on the list's
General Options page and make sure it reflects what you want.

As far as a global way to turn off nodups for everyone, this would be a
withlist script, but I doubt that this is your answer. See post to
follow re: exchange.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug 25 03:00:16 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:00:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824172048.02ff4980@mail.prin.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608241800160359977dca77@msapiro>

Allan Trick wrote:
>
>Is it possible that Exchange is trying to be helpful by not 
>delivering the additional messages since they're all the same?

Absolutely!

I believe Exchange does exactly that (at least if the messages arrive
within some defined time interval).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Aug 25 03:00:48 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 20:00:48 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824145201.02f44280@mail.prin.edu>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824145201.02f44280@mail.prin.edu>
Message-ID: <p06240509c113fbbf4455@[192.168.1.102]>

At 2:55 PM -0500 2006-08-24, Allan Trick wrote:

>  My first thought was a filter or rule on his local email client.  But
>  I don't see any evidence of that.  Therefore I'm suspicious there's a
>  setting somewhere in Mailman that is preventing his messages from
>  being sent to himself.

In cases like this, the first thing to check is the Mailman logs, to 
see how many copies of each message was delivered to the MTA, and 
then to check the MTA logs to track down the individual deliveries to 
each user.

Knowing how many people you have subscribed to each list (which are 
not "nomail" and not set to digest mode) and how many copies of the 
message were distributed will tell you something about how many 
duplicates may have been removed by Mailman, etc....  Then you can 
look at the MTA logs to check on any one particular copy of the 
message.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug 25 03:05:31 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:05:31 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824145201.02f44280@mail.prin.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608241805310687977dcbce@msapiro>

Allan Trick wrote:
>
>My first thought was a filter or rule on his local email client.  But 
>I don't see any evidence of that.  Therefore I'm suspicious there's a 
>setting somewhere in Mailman that is preventing his messages from 
>being sent to himself.


You could look at Mailman's smtp log to see to how many recipients the
message was sent. By comparing that number to the number of list
members minus the number of digest members minus the number of members
with delivery disabled (see bin/list_members --help), you can verify
that mailman sent to everyone or not.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From robertj at linux4free.com  Fri Aug 25 03:12:23 2006
From: robertj at linux4free.com (Rob Jackson)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 19:12:23 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sendmail can't keep up with qfiles/out director
Message-ID: <200608250112.k7P1CDsm017403@resources.rootsweb.com>

Our mail server is getting overloaded and the out directory will hit over
7,000 in just one day, and we can't clear them out fast enough.
 
We are using Sendmail as our MTA.
 
How can we speed things up?
 
-Rob
 
 


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Aug 25 03:53:53 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 20:53:53 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sendmail can't keep up with qfiles/out director
In-Reply-To: <200608250112.k7P1CDsm017403@resources.rootsweb.com>
References: <200608250112.k7P1CDsm017403@resources.rootsweb.com>
Message-ID: <p0624050ac11407c95491@[192.168.1.102]>

At 7:49 PM -0600 2006-08-24, Rob Jackson wrote:

>  Our mail server is getting overloaded and the out directory will hit over
>  7,000 in just one day, and we can't clear them out fast enough.
>
>  We are using Sendmail as our MTA.
>
>  How can we speed things up?

Well, two things:

1.  This sounds like an MTA problem, and not a mailing list problem. 
This mailing list is dedicated to the topic of supporting the Mailman 
mailing list manager, and although we use MTAs, it really isn't our 
purpose to support MTAs, and certainly not specific MTAs.

2.  If you search the FAQ Wizard for "sendmail" and "performance", 
you will find some pointers to information that can help you do some 
tuning of your system, especially to Nick Christenson's book 
_Sendmail Performance Tuning_.


In general, when you have a problem with a particular system, it's 
usually best to get support from the people who develop that system 
or help to support it, as opposed to going somewhere else and asking 
people who may be only peripherally involved in using that same kind 
of system (among others).

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From atrick at prin.edu  Fri Aug 25 03:26:49 2006
From: atrick at prin.edu (atrick at prin.edu)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:26:49 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
Message-ID: <380-22006852512649390@M2W032.mail2web.com>

Brad Knowles wrote:

> check the Mailman logs, to see how many copies of each message was
delivered to the MTA, and then check the MTA logs to track down the
individual deliveries to each user.

OK, I'll do that.  But once I determine the problem, then how to fix it? 
Say I confirm Mailman is only delivering one copy of a message (rather than
20), what can I do?  (First thing I do will probably be to come right back
here and post!)

Allan


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Fri Aug 25 04:15:27 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:15:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
In-Reply-To: <380-22006852512649390@M2W032.mail2web.com>
References: <380-22006852512649390@M2W032.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <p0624050cc1140d439d48@[192.168.1.102]>

At 9:26 PM -0400 2006-08-24, atrick at prin.edu wrote:

>  OK, I'll do that.  But once I determine the problem, then how to fix it?

A lot depends on where the problem is.

>  Say I confirm Mailman is only delivering one copy of a message (rather than
>  20), what can I do?  (First thing I do will probably be to come right back
>  here and post!)

We may need to have more debugging information before we can answer 
these kinds of questions.  If so, you may have to add some Python 
code which provides the additional debugging information in the logs.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From comms at nzfvwo.org.nz  Fri Aug 25 04:20:24 2006
From: comms at nzfvwo.org.nz (Naj Dehlavi)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:20:24 +1200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Having a simple unsubscribe webpage
In-Reply-To: <p0624050cc1140d439d48@[192.168.1.102]>
Message-ID: <20060825022031.PWBR25165.fep01.xtra.co.nz@najnew>

 
Hi,

I need help! 

I am at my wits end (especially since I am not being a proficient
programmer).

I have found useful HTML code on the Mailman website that sets up a
subscription webpage - However, I want an unsubscribe button so that list
members can come to a webpage, type in their email and have it removed
directly - no questions asked (i.e. no redirection to the mailman admin
pages, no confirmation emails etc) and I cant seem to be able to do so. 

Please help - any advice greatly appreciated.

Hope to hear from someone, somehow....

Naj Dehlavi
Communications
_______________________

NZ Federation of Voluntary
Welfare Organisations
_______________________

PO Box 9517
Wellington
New Zealand
Phone 04 3850981
Fax 04 3853248
www.nzfvwo.org.nz
_______________________




From atrick at prin.edu  Fri Aug 25 04:27:45 2006
From: atrick at prin.edu (atrick at prin.edu)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 22:27:45 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
Message-ID: <380-2200685252274546@M2W007.mail2web.com>

Exchange is really all that's recently changed in our environment.  I think
I'll focus my trouble-shooting there now.

Thank you, all!

Allan

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug 25 04:49:08 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 19:49:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Having a simple unsubscribe webpage
In-Reply-To: <20060825022031.PWBR25165.fep01.xtra.co.nz@najnew>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082419490804211a119d6d@msapiro>

Naj Dehlavi wrote:
>
>I have found useful HTML code on the Mailman website that sets up a
>subscription webpage - However, I want an unsubscribe button so that list
>members can come to a webpage, type in their email and have it removed
>directly - no questions asked (i.e. no redirection to the mailman admin
>pages, no confirmation emails etc) and I cant seem to be able to do so. 


First you have to ask yourself if you really want to allow anyone to
unsubscribe anyone else without any verification. If this is a
discussion list, this is a really bad idea - e.g., usera doesn't like
a post from userb so usera unsubscribes userb. Even if it is an
announcement list, it may not be a good idea.

If you really want to do it, without any questions/confirmations,
you'll have to either invoke a mailman command line tool like
bin/remove_members from your web page or create your own CGI script.
If you don't have administrative access to your Mailman server, you
can't do it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From comms at nzfvwo.org.nz  Fri Aug 25 05:23:36 2006
From: comms at nzfvwo.org.nz (Naj Dehlavi)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 15:23:36 +1200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Having a simple unsubscribe webpage
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006082419490804211a119d6d@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20060825032343.TAGG25165.fep01.xtra.co.nz@najnew>

Thanks Mark,

The list is used for announcements to our members who are disinclined to
engage any further than being passive recipients. Yes, we also have
administrative access to the mailman server. I had been hoping that there
would have been some code in the listarchives that would have allowed us to
do a cut and paste job by tweaking variables - being a voluntary
organisation limits our internal IT capability and certainly closes off the
prospect of paying someone else to come in with a solution.

Thanks for your prompt input nonetheless. I'll attempt to unravel something
over the weekend.

Best regards,

Naj Dehlavi
Communications
_______________________

NZ Federation of Voluntary
Welfare Organisations
_______________________

PO Box 9517
Wellington
New Zealand
Phone 04 3850981
Fax 04 3853248
www.nzfvwo.org.nz
_______________________



-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net] 
Sent: Friday, 25 August 2006 2:49 p.m.
To: Naj Dehlavi; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Having a simple unsubscribe webpage

Naj Dehlavi wrote:
>
>I have found useful HTML code on the Mailman website that sets up a
>subscription webpage - However, I want an unsubscribe button so that list
>members can come to a webpage, type in their email and have it removed
>directly - no questions asked (i.e. no redirection to the mailman admin
>pages, no confirmation emails etc) and I cant seem to be able to do so. 


First you have to ask yourself if you really want to allow anyone to
unsubscribe anyone else without any verification. If this is a
discussion list, this is a really bad idea - e.g., usera doesn't like
a post from userb so usera unsubscribes userb. Even if it is an
announcement list, it may not be a good idea.

If you really want to do it, without any questions/confirmations,
you'll have to either invoke a mailman command line tool like
bin/remove_members from your web page or create your own CGI script.
If you don't have administrative access to your Mailman server, you
can't do it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan







From perl at ipchains.ru  Fri Aug 25 09:25:04 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg D.)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 11:25:04 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
In-Reply-To: <380-22006852512649390@M2W032.mail2web.com>
References: <380-22006852512649390@M2W032.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <44EEA5D0.4030806@ipchains.ru>

atrick at prin.edu wrote:

>Brad Knowles wrote:
>
>  
>
>>check the Mailman logs, to see how many copies of each message was
>>    
>>
>delivered to the MTA, and then check the MTA logs to track down the
>individual deliveries to each user.
>
>OK, I'll do that.  But once I determine the problem, then how to fix it? 
>Say I confirm Mailman is only delivering one copy of a message (rather than
>20), what can I do?  (First thing I do will probably be to come right back
>here and post!)
>
>Allan
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>mail2web - Check your email from the web at
>http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------
>Mailman-Users mailing list
>Mailman-Users at python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
>Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/perl%40ipchains.ru
>
>Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>  
>

Please, be sure that mailman delivers messages to MTA.
If it delivers to MTA, then it's *not* a mailman problem.

-- 
Oleg D.

--
don't believe every word people use to say, they might be wrong.

an undefined problem has infinitive number of solutions.



From perl at ipchains.ru  Fri Aug 25 09:28:15 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg D.)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 11:28:15 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
In-Reply-To: <380-2200685252274546@M2W007.mail2web.com>
References: <380-2200685252274546@M2W007.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <44EEA68F.4070805@ipchains.ru>

atrick at prin.edu wrote:

>Exchange is really all that's recently changed in our environment.  I think
>I'll focus my trouble-shooting there now.
>
>Thank you, all!
>
>Allan
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>mail2web - Check your email from the web at
>http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>  
>
Try to find out where problem *exists* first. If mailman does all the 
thing needed it's not mailman's problem. Just take a look inside 
mailman's logs first.

-- 
Oleg D.

--
don't believe every word people use to say, they might be wrong.



From perl at ipchains.ru  Fri Aug 25 09:36:16 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg D.)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 11:36:16 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] qmail setup question
In-Reply-To: <44EE3C40.6040205@speakeasy.net>
References: <44EE3C40.6040205@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <44EEA870.7060706@ipchains.ru>

Peter Horst wrote:

>Hi, I'm trying to set up Mailman on a Fedora Core 5 system running 
>qmail. I'm using the current yum (rpm) package of Mailman.
>
>The 2.1 Installation Manual says:
>
>"Then make your aliases:
>.qmail => mailman at ...?s letters
>.qmail-owner => mailman-owner?s letters"
>
>I can't parse this - can someone break it down for me? What does 
>"mailman at ...'s letters" mean?
>
>Thanks, hope this is not too dumb.
>
>Peter
>  
>
Refer to your MTA documentation.
Also, it is a good practice to *google* solution first. There're a lot 
of solutions how to solve this.

As for exim i do this like that:
mailman_router:
  driver = accept
  condition = MAILMAN_ENABLED
  require_files = MAILMAN_VAR/lists/$local_part/config.pck
  local_part_suffix_optional
  local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
                      -confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
                      -owner : -request : -admin
  transport = mailman_transport

Maybe your MTA has some like that?

-- 
Oleg D.

--
don't believe every word people use to say, they might be wrong.



From tomi.snellman at kolumbus.fi  Fri Aug 25 09:19:57 2006
From: tomi.snellman at kolumbus.fi (Tomi Snellman)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:19:57 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Double address in Reply-To header
Message-ID: <44EEA49D.3040805@kolumbus.fi>

Hi

Our Mailman was recently upgraded to 2.1.5. After the upgrade, a couple
of subscribers began complaining that they were receiving double replies 
to their posts. It turned out that their MUA was appending their private 
address to the list address in the Reply-To header.

I've tried to find out what is happening, but without success. One 
subscriber was using an old version of Outlook Express, but she was 
still getting the same behaviour after she upgraded OE, and even after 
she switched over to Thunderbird. Another subscriber is using some 
version of elm.

What really makes me wonder, what is different in the messages that this 
can happen at all? With the old version of Mailman, nothing of the sort 
happened.

TIA

Tomi Snellman


From perl at ipchains.ru  Fri Aug 25 10:05:39 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg D.)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 12:05:39 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Double address in Reply-To header
In-Reply-To: <44EEA49D.3040805@kolumbus.fi>
References: <44EEA49D.3040805@kolumbus.fi>
Message-ID: <44EEAF53.2020300@ipchains.ru>

Tomi Snellman wrote:

>Hi
>
>Our Mailman was recently upgraded to 2.1.5. After the upgrade, a couple
>of subscribers began complaining that they were receiving double replies 
>to their posts. It turned out that their MUA was appending their private 
>address to the list address in the Reply-To header.
>
>I've tried to find out what is happening, but without success. One 
>subscriber was using an old version of Outlook Express, but she was 
>still getting the same behaviour after she upgraded OE, and even after 
>she switched over to Thunderbird. Another subscriber is using some 
>version of elm.
>
>What really makes me wonder, what is different in the messages that this 
>can happen at all? With the old version of Mailman, nothing of the sort 
>happened.
>
>TIA
>
>Tomi Snellman
>------------------------------------------------------
>Mailman-Users mailing list
>Mailman-Users at python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
>Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/perl%40ipchains.ru
>
>Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>  
>
Did you stopped older version of mailman with your ``cli'' scripts eq 
`mailmanctl' ?

-- 
Oleg D.

--
don't believe every word people use to say, they might be wrong.



From t.d.lee at durham.ac.uk  Fri Aug 25 10:55:01 2006
From: t.d.lee at durham.ac.uk (David Lee)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 09:55:01 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824172048.02ff4980@mail.prin.edu>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824145201.02f44280@mail.prin.edu>
	<44EE0A1C.9080307@music.memphis.edu>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20060824154749.02df8990@mail.prin.edu>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20060824172048.02ff4980@mail.prin.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0608250939000.669@arachne.dur.ac.uk>

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, Allan Trick wrote:

> Getting more reports now of other internal users (we have people
> subscribed within our firewall on our Exchange mail server as well as
> people outside with all other kinds of email addresses) not getting
> all messages.  In each case, it sounds like they get ONE message,
> whereas they're on between 4 and 20 different lists.  They should be
> getting 4-20 copies of the same message (one for each list they're
> on).  But they're only getting ONE.  I can't see anything different
> in the settings for the one successful list (not the same one for all users).
>
> Is it possible that Exchange is trying to be helpful by not
> delivering the additional messages since they're all the same?  There
> is nothing in the Junk folder, but it seems logical that the mail
> system might be interfering with the mail delivery here.  We just
> went to Exchange; previously we were on sendmail and everything worked OK.

We, too, are doing the initial phases of migrating from Unix based UW-IMAP
towards Exchange.  I think I have seen something similar:  UW-IMAP
recipient on 'n' lists gets 'n' copies; similar Exchange recipient sees
one copy.  (Note the "I think" disclaimer: we haven't yet put this far
enough up the priority list to investigate more fully.)

So before looking at the Mailman configuration, perhaps first check the
email logs (sendmail, exim, etc.) on the Mailman machine to what it is
outputting towards the Exchange server: 'n' or one.  If 'n', then it seems
that Exchange would be conflating them; if one, then you probably need to
concentrate your efforts on the Mailman machine.

(My guess, and it is only a guess, is that Exchange assumes the
"Message-ID" is unique and so discards duplicates.  This uniqueness
assumption for email is generally fine.  But in the case of an email going
through more than one list, with recipients in common, I think it would no
longer be valid.)

Hope that helps.  (You might want to report back your findings for the
benefit of the FAQ!)


-- 

:  David Lee                                I.T. Service          :
:  Senior Systems Programmer                Computer Centre       :
:                                           Durham University     :
:  http://www.dur.ac.uk/t.d.lee/            South Road            :
:                                           Durham DH1 3LE        :
:  Phone: +44 191 334 2752                  U.K.                  :


From listeyon at metu.edu.tr  Fri Aug 25 13:10:27 2006
From: listeyon at metu.edu.tr (liste yoneticisi)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:10:27 +0300 (WET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problem about a statistic script
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200608232249.AA49360006@weatherserver.net>
References: <WorldClient-F200608232249.AA49360006@weatherserver.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.58.0608251401060.1364122@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>

Hello;

I've modified the following script in order to get monthly statistics
including list owner column.

original script:
---------------------
#!/bin/bash

MONTH=`date +'%b'`
MAILMANDIR=/cwis/htdocs/mailman
POSTLOG=$MAILMANDIR/logs/post
LISTLISTS=$MAILMANDIR/bin/list_lists
LISTMEMBERS=$MAILMANDIR/bin/list_members
echo "Listname  Posts   Members"
echo "========================="

for list in `$LISTLISTS | grep -v "matching mailing lists found" | awk '{print $1}'`
do
    postnum=`grep "^$MONTH" $POSTLOG | grep -i "post to $list" | wc -l`
    membernum=`$LISTMEMBERS $list | wc -l`
   echo $list " | " $postnum " | " $membernum
done
-------------- (it works perfectly)

I've added owner related lines and the script became to be as following:

modified script:
#!/bin/bash

MONTH=`date +'%b'`
MAILMANDIR=/cwis/htdocs/mailman
POSTLOG=$MAILMANDIR/logs/post
LISTLISTS=$MAILMANDIR/bin/list_lists
LISTMEMBERS=$MAILMANDIR/bin/list_members
LISTOWNERS=$MAILMANDIR/bin/list_owners
echo "Listname  Posts   Members"
echo "========================="

for list in `$LISTLISTS | grep -v "matching mailing lists found" | awk '{print $1}'`
do
    ownlist=`$LISTOWNERS $list | head -1`
    postnum=`grep "^$MONTH" $POSTLOG | grep -i "post to $list" | wc -l`
    membernum=`$LISTMEMBERS $list | wc -l`
    echo $list " | " $ownlist " | " $postnum " | " $membernum
done

-------------
only addition is the path of "list_owners" command and ownlist variable
calling this command.

But the script gives the following lines.
"
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/cwis/htdocs/mailman/bin/list_owners", line 120, in ?
    main()
  File "/cwis/htdocs/mailman/bin/list_owners", line 91, in main
    mlist = MailList(listname, lock=0)
  File "/cwis/htdocs/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 130, in __init__
    self.Load()
  File "/cwis/htdocs/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 615, in Load
    raise Errors.MMUnknownListError
Mailman.Errors.MMUnknownListError
"
The is about ~250 lists in the system and the result probably will be
repeated 250 times if i wont kill the command.

how can i solve the problem?
Tank you for your answers.
Regads.
Evrim AKMAN
Computer Center METU


From jjloose at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Aug 25 13:36:04 2006
From: jjloose at yahoo.co.uk (Jon Loose)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 11:36:04 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message IDs & Security
In-Reply-To: <p06240501c1138ba91c19@[192.168.1.102]>
Message-ID: <20060825113604.69290.qmail@web25705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Thanks Brad/Mark for comments.  It seems outlook is to blame for the message ids.  Re: Security, I will pass back to the list anything I find that's simple enough for me!  The potential feature set of 2.2 looks good. Any guesstimates on when this will be coming?(!)  Are there plans for 2.2 to be as easy to apply as an upgrade as the 2.1.x releases have been?

One further issue: Is it possible to discover who has been invited to join a list but has not yet responded to the invitation email?

Thanks,

Jon

----- Original Message ----
From: Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
To: Jon Loose <jjloose at yahoo.co.uk>; Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
Sent: Thursday, 24 August, 2006 6:02:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Message IDs & Security

At 9:25 AM +0000 2006-08-24, Jon Loose wrote:

>                                     The potential feature set of 2.2
>  looks good.  Any guesstimates on when this will be coming?(!)

I'm not aware of any specific schedule for the delivery of version 
2.2.  You'd have to ask Barry about that.

>                                                                 Are there
>  plans for 2.2 to be as easy to apply as an upgrade as the 2.1.x releases
>  have been?

I'm not sure, but I would hope it would be very easy to make the 
upgrade.  Again, you'd have to talk to Barry.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.





From jay at abadata.com  Fri Aug 25 13:40:47 2006
From: jay at abadata.com (Jay Vaagen)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 07:40:47 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] SMTPHOST?
Message-ID: <200608251140.k7PBet800410@raq550.sebewaing.net>


Anyone have any suggestions on this issue?






Mailman is running, and I've created a few different mailing lists.

I'm running Blue Quartz and have virtual domains. Currently all email sent
from Mailman is originating from my localhost FQDN. I would like email from
one of my virtual domains to originate from that domain name/IP, not the
localhost domain name and IP..

 

Is this possible?

 

Thanks!

 

Jay



 

------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list
Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jay%40abadata.com

Security Policy:
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp





From andreas.schulze at datev.de  Fri Aug 25 14:21:04 2006
From: andreas.schulze at datev.de (Andreas Schulze)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:21:04 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problem about a statistic script
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.58.0608251401060.1364122@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>
References: <WorldClient-F200608232249.AA49360006@weatherserver.net>
	<Pine.A41.4.58.0608251401060.1364122@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>
Message-ID: <20060825141706@spider>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> how can i solve the problem?
uppercase Listnames as reported by list_lists throw errors in list_owner
 -> convert listnames to lower

- -- 
Andreas Schulze

DATEV eG, Paumgartner Strasse 6-14, D - 90429 N?rnberg
Abt. Internet- und Securitydienste
 Telefon : +49 911 276 2648
 Telefax : +49 911 276 7892
   Mobil : +49 172 8122883
  E-Mail : andreas.schulze_at_datev.de
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFE7uswA7Vnk6fbpn8RAneiAJ4zFgTz81ChOn18diW35nwm4u2mkgCeLlsm
aSMWcSGEnO3+PgMjWdUJYnQ=
=vnzO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From perl at ipchains.ru  Fri Aug 25 14:22:07 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg D.)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:22:07 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] SMTPHOST?
In-Reply-To: <200608251140.k7PBet800410@raq550.sebewaing.net>
References: <200608251140.k7PBet800410@raq550.sebewaing.net>
Message-ID: <44EEEB6F.3060704@ipchains.ru>

Jay Vaagen wrote:

>Anyone have any suggestions on this issue?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Mailman is running, and I've created a few different mailing lists.
>
>I'm running Blue Quartz and have virtual domains. Currently all email sent
>from Mailman is originating from my localhost FQDN. I would like email from
>one of my virtual domains to originate from that domain name/IP, not the
>localhost domain name and IP..
>
> 
>
>Is this possible?
>
> 
>
>Thanks!
>
> 
>
>Jay
>
>
>
> 
>
>------------------------------------------------------
>Mailman-Users mailing list
>Mailman-Users at python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
>Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>Unsubscribe:
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jay%40abadata.com
>
>Security Policy:
>http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>
>
>  
>

mm_cfg.py:
VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW = On
VHOST_EMAIL_HOST = '<DOMAIN>'
VHOST_URL_HOST = 'www.<DOMAIN>'


add_virtualhost(VHOST_URL_HOST, VHOST_EMAIL_HOST)
add_virtualhost(VHOST_EMAIL_HOST, VHOST_EMAIL_HOST)


and in lists' options set the right virtualdomain you'd like to use.

Note that MTA must deliver mail for this domain

-- 
Oleg D.

--
don't believe every word people use to say, they might be wrong.



From listeyon at metu.edu.tr  Fri Aug 25 15:14:57 2006
From: listeyon at metu.edu.tr (liste yoneticisi)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:14:57 +0300 (WET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problem about a statistic script
In-Reply-To: <20060825141706@spider>
References: <WorldClient-F200608232249.AA49360006@weatherserver.net>
	<Pine.A41.4.58.0608251401060.1364122@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>
	<20060825141706@spider>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.58.0608251613320.1364122@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>

I am trying to write the script on bash

How can i use transrom to lower/upper commands?

the manuals on the web didn't work.
----------------
Liste Yoneticisi
http://e-list.cc.metu.edu.tr
http://e-liste.bidb.odtu.edu.tr

On Fri, 25 Aug 2006, Andreas Schulze wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> how can i solve the problem?
uppercase Listnames as reported by list_lists throw errors in list_owner
 -> convert listnames to lower

- --
Andreas Schulze

DATEV eG, Paumgartner Strasse 6-14, D - 90429 N?rnberg
Abt. Internet- und Securitydienste
 Telefon : +49 911 276 2648
 Telefax : +49 911 276 7892
   Mobil : +49 172 8122883
  E-Mail : andreas.schulze_at_datev.de
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFE7uswA7Vnk6fbpn8RAneiAJ4zFgTz81ChOn18diW35nwm4u2mkgCeLlsm
aSMWcSGEnO3+PgMjWdUJYnQ=
=vnzO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From anne.ramey at ncmail.net  Fri Aug 25 15:22:42 2006
From: anne.ramey at ncmail.net (Anne Ramey)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 09:22:42 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Hit a Bug during server move
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006082417422605789b30b83c@msapiro>
References: <PC17602006082417422605789b30b83c@msapiro>
Message-ID: <44EEF9A2.8030505@ncmail.net>


Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Anne Ramey wrote:
>
>   
>> OK, my cgi-bin was missing the suid.  Now all I need to figure out is my 
>> post failures.
>>     
>
>
> Is $prefix/mail/mailman also missing SETGID?
>
> If that's not it, does your MTA use aliases for Mailman, and if so, are
> they there?
>
> What's in the MTA log for an attempted post?
>   
I thought I should post that I did solve it.  My $prefix/mail/mailman 
was also missing it's siud, but my exim install was also missing a + in 
front of the local domains.  So now my mail can be delivered to mailman 
and mailman can process it.  Thanks.

Anne


From phorst at speakeasy.net  Fri Aug 25 15:49:15 2006
From: phorst at speakeasy.net (Peter Horst)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 08:49:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] qmail setup question
In-Reply-To: <44EEA870.7060706@ipchains.ru>
References: <44EE3C40.6040205@speakeasy.net> <44EEA870.7060706@ipchains.ru>
Message-ID: <44EEFFDB.4020502@speakeasy.net>

Oleg D. wrote:
> Peter Horst wrote:
>
>> Hi, I'm trying to set up Mailman on a Fedora Core 5 system running 
>> qmail. I'm using the current yum (rpm) package of Mailman.
>>
>> The 2.1 Installation Manual says:
>>
>> "Then make your aliases:
>> .qmail => mailman at ...?s letters
>> .qmail-owner => mailman-owner?s letters"
>>
>> I can't parse this - can someone break it down for me? What does 
>> "mailman at ...'s letters" mean?
>>
>> Thanks, hope this is not too dumb.
>>
>> Peter
>>  
>>
> Refer to your MTA documentation.
> Also, it is a good practice to *google* solution first. There're a lot 
> of solutions how to solve this.
>

Solve what? :-)  I appreciate your taking the time to answer, but my 
question was "what does 'mailman at ...'s letters" mean?  What's a 
"letter"?  I'm saying that fundamentally I don't understand what the 
part I quoted even means, so I have nothing to Google...


From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Fri Aug 25 15:47:38 2006
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 08:47:38 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error when trying to remove a member from the
	ban_list
Message-ID: <44EEFF7A.4040601@washburn.edu>

When I try to remove a member from a ban_list, I receive an error 
message.  It only says: Error (in red) Bad email address for option 
ban_list and then all the banned member are listed.  I am correctly 
removing the member.  Any ideas?

J////


From b19141 at britaine.ctd.anl.gov  Fri Aug 25 16:18:03 2006
From: b19141 at britaine.ctd.anl.gov (Barry Finkel)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 09:18:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Why Not Upgrade to 2.1.8?
Message-ID: <200608251418.k7PEI3fL004152@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>

> Our Mailman was recently upgraded to 2.1.5.

I have seen many posts on this list from people who are running 2.1.5
(or earlier).  I am wondering why someone would recently upgrade to
2.1.5 instead of to 2.1.8, which is the current release?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry S. Finkel
Computing and Information Systems Division
Argonne National Laboratory          Phone:    +1 (630) 252-7277
9700 South Cass Avenue               Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
Building 222, Room D209              Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
Argonne, IL   60439-4828             IBMMAIL:  I1004994



From atrick at prin.edu  Fri Aug 25 16:30:47 2006
From: atrick at prin.edu (Allan Trick)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 09:30:47 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Why Not Upgrade to 2.1.8?
In-Reply-To: <200608251418.k7PEI3fL004152@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
References: <200608251418.k7PEI3fL004152@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060825092758.030a3bc8@mail.prin.edu>

At 09:18 AM 8/25/2006, Barry Finkel wrote:

>I have seen many posts on this list from people who are running 
>2.1.5 (or earlier).  I am wondering why someone would recently 
>upgrade to 2.1.5 instead of to 2.1.8, which is the current release?

Barry,

I know one reason we don't upgrade every time one comes out is we 
want to be sure everything is stable.  I'm sure it is, but sometimes 
people talk about a feature not working right in a release and we 
think we know everything's working properly in the one we have, so why upgrade.

Also, we usually hire someone to come in and help us with upgrades 
like this.  If the upgrade process were really cut and dried, and 
there was virtually no possibility that something weird could happen, 
then maybe us non-guru folks would attempt it.  Is there a document 
explaining the upgrade process, and is it considered a pretty simple 
thing to do?

Allan 



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug 25 16:29:32 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 07:29:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Double address in Reply-To header
In-Reply-To: <44EEA49D.3040805@kolumbus.fi>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608250729320718560f114e@msapiro>

Tomi Snellman wrote:
>
>Our Mailman was recently upgraded to 2.1.5. After the upgrade, a couple
>of subscribers began complaining that they were receiving double replies 
>to their posts. It turned out that their MUA was appending their private 
>address to the list address in the Reply-To header.


It appears that the list settings on General Options are:

first_strip_reply_to = No

reply_goes_to_list = This List
	
If this is correct, setting first_strip_reply_to = Yes will fix your
problem.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From perl at ipchains.ru  Fri Aug 25 16:34:11 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg D.)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:34:11 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] setting moderator password with command line
In-Reply-To: <010901c6c666$2aca6970$1501a8c0@Alanslaptop>
References: <010901c6c666$2aca6970$1501a8c0@Alanslaptop>
Message-ID: <44EF0A63.7030200@ipchains.ru>

Alan Holmes wrote:
> Is there a way to set the moderator password with one of the command line
> tools?
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/perl%40ipchains.ru
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>   
$PREFIX/mailman/bin/mmsitepass

--
Oleg D.

--

don't believe every word people use to say, they might be wrong.


From listeyon at metu.edu.tr  Fri Aug 25 16:39:03 2006
From: listeyon at metu.edu.tr (liste yoneticisi)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:39:03 +0300 (WET)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problem about a statistic script
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.58.0608251613320.1364122@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>
References: <WorldClient-F200608232249.AA49360006@weatherserver.net>
	<Pine.A41.4.58.0608251401060.1364122@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>
	<20060825141706@spider>
	<Pine.A41.4.58.0608251613320.1364122@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.58.0608251733230.1364122@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>

Its OK.

I want to share the script:
-----------------
#!/bin/bash

MONTH=`date +'%b'`
echo $MONTH
MAILMANDIR=/cwis/htdocs/mailman
POSTLOG=$MAILMANDIR/logs/post
LISTLISTS=$MAILMANDIR/bin/list_lists
LISTMEMBERS=$MAILMANDIR/bin/list_members
LISTOWNERS=$MAILMANDIR/bin/list_owners
echo "Listname  Posts   Members"
echo "========================="

echo $LISTOWNERS

for list in `$LISTLISTS | grep -v "matching mailing lists found" | awk
'{print $1}'`
do
    listlow=`echo $list | tr A-Z a-z`
    listupp=`echo $list | tr a-z A-Z`
    ownlist=`$LISTOWNERS $listlow | head`
    postnum=`grep "^$MONTH" $POSTLOG | grep -i "post to $list" | wc -l`
    membernum=`$LISTMEMBERS $list | wc -l`
   echo $list " | " $ownlist " | " $postnum " | " $membernum
done
-----------

Of course some estetic corrections are needed.

But this isn't completed. I also want to add list creation date.
We used to work on Listproc and we had a statistic script including the
columns about list description and list creation date.

description can be added but how can i add creation date?

----------------
Liste Yoneticisi
http://e-list.cc.metu.edu.tr
http://e-liste.bidb.odtu.edu.tr

On Fri, 25 Aug 2006, liste yoneticisi wrote:

I am trying to write the script on bash

How can i use transrom to lower/upper commands?

the manuals on the web didn't work.
----------------
Liste Yoneticisi
http://e-list.cc.metu.edu.tr
http://e-liste.bidb.odtu.edu.tr

On Fri, 25 Aug 2006, Andreas Schulze wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> how can i solve the problem?
uppercase Listnames as reported by list_lists throw errors in list_owner
 -> convert listnames to lower

- --
Andreas Schulze

DATEV eG, Paumgartner Strasse 6-14, D - 90429 N??rnberg
Abt. Internet- und Securitydienste
 Telefon : +49 911 276 2648
 Telefax : +49 911 276 7892
   Mobil : +49 172 8122883
  E-Mail : andreas.schulze_at_datev.de
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFE7uswA7Vnk6fbpn8RAneiAJ4zFgTz81ChOn18diW35nwm4u2mkgCeLlsm
aSMWcSGEnO3+PgMjWdUJYnQ=
=vnzO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list
Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/listeyon%40metu.edu.tr

Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp


From gary.chris at comcast.net  Fri Aug 25 16:51:05 2006
From: gary.chris at comcast.net (Gary Hall)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:51:05 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need to stop mailman
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060824121426.032d9400@berrach.com>
References: <44EDCC64.3080208@comcast.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060824121426.032d9400@berrach.com>
Message-ID: <44EF0E59.2050409@comcast.net>

Hi Catherine and Brad,

Typed in the code to stop the mailman but it kept on sending mail 
already in the queue - I forgot to empty the MTA. A reboot appeared to 
have stopped the process of sending however.

The logs were inclusive, but it appears that the html became malformed 
somehow and the adv was being resent to one group of the whole list. I 
am on that list but I never got a "repeat" email, but I saw on several 
computers at the business where they got at least 4 of them.

We cleared the mail queue and will restart the server later today after 
we look again at the "/usr/local/mailman/qfiles/out" files to be sure 
they are clear too.

I have set up a "test" list that only has the names of the principles of 
this mailing endeavor. We will first send out the adv to ourselves and 
be sure the adv looks as we expect it too and not other problems crop 
up. After the test run we will send out the adv to the main list. My 
primary reason for this is to check out this guy's html code every time 
- just in case.

Thanks for your suggestions and help.

Warm regards,

Gary

Catherine Maxwell wrote:

> Hello Gary,
>
> Just set this guy to moderated and make sure that he is not set in the 
> allowed to post block. When he posts a message the notice will come to 
> you as the list administrator to approve it or not.
>
> --Catherine
>
> At 10:57 AM 8/24/2006, you wrote:
>
>> Hi Guy's,
>>
>> Problem: Mailman is sending out unsolicited emails and I want to clear
>> out the remaining emails.
>>
>> I will stop the service (at the machine itself) by:
>>
>> /usr/local/mailman/bin/mailmanctl stop
>>
>>
>> The list in question is sending out unsolicited emails according to 
>> the person who once a month sends out an advertisement for his 
>> company. I have asked for examples and I am being stonewalled - don't 
>> know why he won't send me an example. He is the only one authorized 
>> to send mail - I set that myself.
>>
>> I am not only the list owner, but I am the only one with passwords to 
>> the root and list. I have removed the network cable from the server 
>> and will access the server on site to type in the code above. After 
>> typing in the "stop" code I will reattach the network cable so I can 
>> view the root via secure shell at my office. After that I can use the 
>> html interface to view the list settings.
>>
>> Question: What do I look for? Have I missed anything? Is there a 
>> "file" that holds emails that need to be sent out? Has anyone else 
>> had this problem? Is this guy blowing smoke up my *(^&%?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Warm regards,
>>
>> Gary
>>
>> .
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> Mailman-Users mailing list
>> Mailman-Users at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
>> Searchable Archives: 
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>> Unsubscribe: 
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/catmaxx%40berrach.com 
>>
>>
>> Security Policy: 
>> http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>
>
>


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Aug 25 16:53:56 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 07:53:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Why Not Upgrade to 2.1.8?
In-Reply-To: <200608251418.k7PEI3fL004152@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
References: <200608251418.k7PEI3fL004152@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060825075204.06301bc8@crimson-dragon.com>

Barry Finkel wrote:
> > Our Mailman was recently upgraded to 2.1.5.
>
>I have seen many posts on this list from people who are running 2.1.5
>(or earlier).  I am wondering why someone would recently upgrade to
>2.1.5 instead of to 2.1.8, which is the current release?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

I suspect a lot of these people are using an RHEL distribution and 
the RPM they supply which is usually a version or three behind the latest.

As easy as mailman is to install from source, I can't really see a 
reason to use the RPM other than to remain compliant with Redhat's 
way of doing things.



Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug 25 16:54:18 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 07:54:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] qmail setup question
In-Reply-To: <44EEFFDB.4020502@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608250754180906555e4c3c@msapiro>

Peter Horst wrote:
>
>Solve what? :-)  I appreciate your taking the time to answer, but my 
>question was "what does 'mailman at ...'s letters" mean?  What's a 
>"letter"?  I'm saying that fundamentally I don't understand what the 
>part I quoted even means, so I have nothing to Google...


Most of us are not qmail experts or even knowledgeable about qmail at
all. Questions about a specific MTA are more likely to get good
answers if directed to a list or other resource devoted to that MTA.

I know your question comes directly from our installation manual, but
that material may well have been contributed by one person who isn't
here now.

Having read that section, all I can tell you is this has to do with
delivering mail to the site list 'mailman' and it's owner
'mailman-owner' when 'mailman' is also a local user. I think
'mailman at ...' means 'mailman at example.com' where 'example.com' is your
domain. I haven't a clue about the broader meaning of those lines.

Sorry I can't be more help.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From atrick at prin.edu  Fri Aug 25 17:03:15 2006
From: atrick at prin.edu (Allan Trick)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:03:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0608250939000.669@arachne.dur.ac.uk>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824145201.02f44280@mail.prin.edu>
	<44EE0A1C.9080307@music.memphis.edu>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20060824154749.02df8990@mail.prin.edu>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20060824172048.02ff4980@mail.prin.edu>
	<Pine.GSO.4.58.0608250939000.669@arachne.dur.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060825095923.02f39848@mail.prin.edu>

I'm just reporting back that in the scenario I was describing earlier 
in this thread, I've checked logs and it appears that Mailman did do 
what it was supposed to and deliver a message to all 20 of our 
lists.  So the fact that any given user who is subscribed to all 
those lists only receives one message of the 20 would appear to be 
due to Exchange's "helpfulness" in reducing in-box clutter.  I'm not 
sure I like this "feature" but there probably isn't much to be done 
about it.  Maybe it'll help others who didn't already know that 
Exchange does this to read this in the FAQ.  And if anyone more 
knowledgeable about Exchange wants to comment and maybe provide a 
workaround for cases where all messages sent to a bunch of lists ARE 
received by the Exchange user in Outlook, that'd be nice.

I've got a question about the logs, but I'll put that in a separate message.

Allan 



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Aug 25 17:07:36 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 08:07:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Why Not Upgrade to 2.1.8?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060825092758.030a3bc8@mail.prin.edu>
References: <200608251418.k7PEI3fL004152@britaine.ctd.anl.gov>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20060825092758.030a3bc8@mail.prin.edu>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060825075415.0630bf70@crimson-dragon.com>

Allan Trick wrote:
>At 09:18 AM 8/25/2006, Barry Finkel wrote:
>
> >I have seen many posts on this list from people who are running
> >2.1.5 (or earlier).  I am wondering why someone would recently
> >upgrade to 2.1.5 instead of to 2.1.8, which is the current release?
>
>Barry,
>
>I know one reason we don't upgrade every time one comes out is we
>want to be sure everything is stable.  I'm sure it is, but sometimes
>people talk about a feature not working right in a release and we
>think we know everything's working properly in the one we have, so 
>why upgrade.

Security for one. Much of the impetus for releasing later versions in 
the 2.1.X branch was for that reason.

See http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/security.html for some more 
info on that. The release notes for each release also explain any 
other changes.

>Also, we usually hire someone to come in and help us with upgrades
>like this.  If the upgrade process were really cut and dried, and
>there was virtually no possibility that something weird could happen,
>then maybe us non-guru folks would attempt it.  Is there a document
>explaining the upgrade process, and is it considered a pretty simple
>thing to do?

The process is described in the UPGRADING file that is part of the 
source for each release.

I found it pretty simple.

It basically comes down to a few simple steps as long as you have a 
version of Python that is recent enough for the package. If you are 
already running 2.1.5 then that is covered for installing 2.1.8.

1. Download the tarball.

2. Extract the files from the tarball.

3. Run configure (you may need to change a few options there to get 
it to set things up properly, mainly to do with what group your MTA 
and web server execute under and what owner/group mailman execute as).

4. Run make

5. Stop mailman and your MTA while doing the install. (Use 
bin/mailmanctl stop to shutdown mailman).

6. Run make install

7. Start your MTA and mailman ( bin/mailmanctl start.

The only thing I can see that may complicate things is if you used an 
RPM or other package to install that does not use the standard file 
locations for mailman.

If everything goes well, it is literally less than 30 minutes to do 
all of this and you only have to keep mailman and your MTA off line 
for maybe 5 or 10 minutes.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Aug 25 17:11:32 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 08:11:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060825095923.02f39848@mail.prin.edu>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824145201.02f44280@mail.prin.edu>
	<44EE0A1C.9080307@music.memphis.edu>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20060824154749.02df8990@mail.prin.edu>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20060824172048.02ff4980@mail.prin.edu>
	<Pine.GSO.4.58.0608250939000.669@arachne.dur.ac.uk>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20060825095923.02f39848@mail.prin.edu>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060825081042.062fc860@crimson-dragon.com>

Allan Trick sent the message below at 08:03 8/25/2006:
>I'm just reporting back that in the scenario I was describing earlier
>in this thread, I've checked logs and it appears that Mailman did do
>what it was supposed to and deliver a message to all 20 of our
>lists.  So the fact that any given user who is subscribed to all
>those lists only receives one message of the 20 would appear to be
>due to Exchange's "helpfulness" in reducing in-box clutter.  I'm not
>sure I like this "feature" but there probably isn't much to be done
>about it.  Maybe it'll help others who didn't already know that
>Exchange does this to read this in the FAQ.  And if anyone more
>knowledgeable about Exchange wants to comment and maybe provide a
>workaround for cases where all messages sent to a bunch of lists ARE
>received by the Exchange user in Outlook, that'd be nice.
>
>I've got a question about the logs, but I'll put that in a separate message.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Since the FAQ is open to contributions from anyone, you can go there 
and add this in a new entry yourself.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug 25 17:14:48 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 08:14:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error when trying to remove a member from
	theban_list
In-Reply-To: <44EEFF7A.4040601@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082508144803756c53ca67@msapiro>

Jewel wrote:

>When I try to remove a member from a ban_list, I receive an error 
>message.  It only says: Error (in red) Bad email address for option 
>ban_list and then all the banned member are listed.  I am correctly 
>removing the member.  Any ideas?


One of the addresses in the resultant list is not a syntactically valid
email address or is a regular expression that doesn't begin with the
'^' character.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From atrick at prin.edu  Fri Aug 25 17:20:39 2006
From: atrick at prin.edu (Allan Trick)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:20:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Log entries refer to which list?
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060825100317.02ec1b30@mail.prin.edu>

I was trying to determine if a message was sent to the lists it 
should have been sent to, and see two different types of entries in 
my SMTP log:

>Aug 24 16:23:57 2006 (18946) 
><6.2.3.4.2.20060824161925.02ded760 at mail.prin.edu> smtp for 41 
>recips, completed in 8.864 seconds
>
>Aug 24 16:23:58 2006 (18946) 
><mailman.0.1156454519.18944.2012 at mail.prin.edu> smtp for 1 recips, 
>completed in 0.296 seconds

Does the first line indicate the sending of a message to one list, 
which has 41 members?  Is there one line like this per list that 
receives a message?  If so, how does one determine which list that is?

And what would the difference be in the second example?  I'm guessing 
that is referring to maybe an umbrella list that was sent to.

Thanks!

Allan 



From perl at ipchains.ru  Fri Aug 25 17:25:00 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg D.)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:25:00 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problem about a statistic script
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.58.0608251733230.1364122@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>
References: <WorldClient-F200608232249.AA49360006@weatherserver.net>	<Pine.A41.4.58.0608251401060.1364122@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>	<20060825141706@spider>	<Pine.A41.4.58.0608251613320.1364122@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>
	<Pine.A41.4.58.0608251733230.1364122@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>
Message-ID: <44EF164C.5030202@ipchains.ru>

liste yoneticisi wrote:
> Its OK.
>
> I want to share the script:
> -----------------
> #!/bin/bash
>
> MONTH=`date +'%b'`
> echo $MONTH
> MAILMANDIR=/cwis/htdocs/mailman
> POSTLOG=$MAILMANDIR/logs/post
> LISTLISTS=$MAILMANDIR/bin/list_lists
> LISTMEMBERS=$MAILMANDIR/bin/list_members
> LISTOWNERS=$MAILMANDIR/bin/list_owners
> echo "Listname  Posts   Members"
> echo "========================="
>
> echo $LISTOWNERS
>
> for list in `$LISTLISTS | grep -v "matching mailing lists found" | awk
> '{print $1}'`
> do
>     listlow=`echo $list | tr A-Z a-z`
>     listupp=`echo $list | tr a-z A-Z`
>     ownlist=`$LISTOWNERS $listlow | head`
>     postnum=`grep "^$MONTH" $POSTLOG | grep -i "post to $list" | wc -l`
>     membernum=`$LISTMEMBERS $list | wc -l`
>    echo $list " | " $ownlist " | " $postnum " | " $membernum
> done
> -----------
>
> Of course some estetic corrections are needed.
>
> But this isn't completed. I also want to add list creation date.
> We used to work on Listproc and we had a statistic script including the
> columns about list description and list creation date.
>
> description can be added but how can i add creation date?
>
> ----------------
> Liste Yoneticisi
> http://e-list.cc.metu.edu.tr
> http://e-liste.bidb.odtu.edu.tr
>
> On Fri, 25 Aug 2006, liste yoneticisi wrote:
>
> I am trying to write the script on bash
>
> How can i use transrom to lower/upper commands?
>
> the manuals on the web didn't work.
> ----------------
> Liste Yoneticisi
> http://e-list.cc.metu.edu.tr
> http://e-liste.bidb.odtu.edu.tr
>
> On Fri, 25 Aug 2006, Andreas Schulze wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>   
>> how can i solve the problem?
>>     
> uppercase Listnames as reported by list_lists throw errors in list_owner
>  -> convert listnames to lower
>
> - --
> Andreas Schulze
>
> DATEV eG, Paumgartner Strasse 6-14, D - 90429 N??rnberg
> Abt. Internet- und Securitydienste
>  Telefon : +49 911 276 2648
>  Telefax : +49 911 276 7892
>    Mobil : +49 172 8122883
>   E-Mail : andreas.schulze_at_datev.de
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFE7uswA7Vnk6fbpn8RAneiAJ4zFgTz81ChOn18diW35nwm4u2mkgCeLlsm
> aSMWcSGEnO3+PgMjWdUJYnQ=
> =vnzO
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/listeyon%40metu.edu.tr
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/perl%40ipchains.ru
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>   
Whoops, your script is lil buggy:

echo "Listname  Posts   Members"

I use my own perl scripts for that, that generates very nice web-stats, 
not only for mailman, but for whole userland programms on my machine :-)


From perl at ipchains.ru  Fri Aug 25 17:29:18 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg D.)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:29:18 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Sender not receiving messages
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060825095923.02f39848@mail.prin.edu>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060824145201.02f44280@mail.prin.edu>	<44EE0A1C.9080307@music.memphis.edu>	<6.2.3.4.2.20060824154749.02df8990@mail.prin.edu>	<6.2.3.4.2.20060824172048.02ff4980@mail.prin.edu>	<Pine.GSO.4.58.0608250939000.669@arachne.dur.ac.uk>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20060825095923.02f39848@mail.prin.edu>
Message-ID: <44EF174E.8090701@ipchains.ru>

Allan Trick wrote:
> I'm just reporting back that in the scenario I was describing earlier 
> in this thread, I've checked logs and it appears that Mailman did do 
> what it was supposed to and deliver a message to all 20 of our 
> lists.  So the fact that any given user who is subscribed to all 
> those lists only receives one message of the 20 would appear to be 
> due to Exchange's "helpfulness" in reducing in-box clutter.  I'm not 
> sure I like this "feature" but there probably isn't much to be done 
> about it.  Maybe it'll help others who didn't already know that 
> Exchange does this to read this in the FAQ.  And if anyone more 
> knowledgeable about Exchange wants to comment and maybe provide a 
> workaround for cases where all messages sent to a bunch of lists ARE 
> received by the Exchange user in Outlook, that'd be nice.
>
> I've got a question about the logs, but I'll put that in a separate message.
>
> Allan 
>   
As David said it would be a great idea to have a post in FAQ about that ;-)

David Lee on Fri, 25 Aug 2006 09:55:01 +0100 (BST): "Hope that helps.  (You might want to report back your findings for the benefit of the FAQ!)"




From perl at ipchains.ru  Fri Aug 25 17:32:50 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg D.)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:32:50 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] problem about a statistic script
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.58.0608251733230.1364122@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>
References: <WorldClient-F200608232249.AA49360006@weatherserver.net>	<Pine.A41.4.58.0608251401060.1364122@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>	<20060825141706@spider>	<Pine.A41.4.58.0608251613320.1364122@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>
	<Pine.A41.4.58.0608251733230.1364122@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>
Message-ID: <44EF1822.3070906@ipchains.ru>

liste yoneticisi wrote:
> Its OK.
>
> I want to share the script:
> -----------------
> #!/bin/bash
>
> MONTH=`date +'%b'`
> echo $MONTH
> MAILMANDIR=/cwis/htdocs/mailman
> POSTLOG=$MAILMANDIR/logs/post
> LISTLISTS=$MAILMANDIR/bin/list_lists
> LISTMEMBERS=$MAILMANDIR/bin/list_members
> LISTOWNERS=$MAILMANDIR/bin/list_owners
> echo "Listname  Posts   Members"
> echo "========================="
>
> echo $LISTOWNERS
>
> for list in `$LISTLISTS | grep -v "matching mailing lists found" | awk
> '{print $1}'`
> do
>     listlow=`echo $list | tr A-Z a-z`
>     listupp=`echo $list | tr a-z A-Z`
>     ownlist=`$LISTOWNERS $listlow | head`
>     postnum=`grep "^$MONTH" $POSTLOG | grep -i "post to $list" | wc -l`
>     membernum=`$LISTMEMBERS $list | wc -l`
>    echo $list " | " $ownlist " | " $postnum " | " $membernum
> done
> -----------
>
> Of course some estetic corrections are needed.
>
> But this isn't completed. I also want to add list creation date.
> We used to work on Listproc and we had a statistic script including the
> columns about list description and list creation date.
>
> description can be added but how can i add creation date?
>
> ----------------
> Liste Yoneticisi
> http://e-list.cc.metu.edu.tr
> http://e-liste.bidb.odtu.edu.tr
>
> On Fri, 25 Aug 2006, liste yoneticisi wrote:
>
> I am trying to write the script on bash
>
> How can i use transrom to lower/upper commands?
>
> the manuals on the web didn't work.
> ----------------
> Liste Yoneticisi
> http://e-list.cc.metu.edu.tr
> http://e-liste.bidb.odtu.edu.tr
>   

Sorry didn't see the bottom of your message.

You can try tolower(3), ex awk{'print tolower("FOO")}'


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug 25 17:33:31 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 08:33:31 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] setting moderator password with command line
In-Reply-To: <44EF0A63.7030200@ipchains.ru>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608250833310906df57f8c9@msapiro>

Oleg D. wrote:

>Alan Holmes wrote:
>> Is there a way to set the moderator password with one of the command line
>> tools?

>$PREFIX/mailman/bin/mmsitepass


No! mmsitepass sets only the site admin password or the sitewide list
creator password.

There is bin/change_pw that can be used to change a list's admin
password, but not it's moderator password.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From phorst at speakeasy.net  Fri Aug 25 17:36:34 2006
From: phorst at speakeasy.net (Peter Horst)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:36:34 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] qmail setup question
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200608250754180906555e4c3c@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200608250754180906555e4c3c@msapiro>
Message-ID: <44EF1902.2070008@speakeasy.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Peter Horst wrote:
>   
>> Solve what? :-)  I appreciate your taking the time to answer, but my 
>> question was "what does 'mailman at ...'s letters" mean?  What's a 
>> "letter"?  I'm saying that fundamentally I don't understand what the 
>> part I quoted even means, so I have nothing to Google...
>>     
>
>
> Most of us are not qmail experts or even knowledgeable about qmail at
> all. Questions about a specific MTA are more likely to get good
> answers if directed to a list or other resource devoted to that MTA.
>
> I know your question comes directly from our installation manual, but
> that material may well have been contributed by one person who isn't
> here now.
>
> Having read that section, all I can tell you is this has to do with
> delivering mail to the site list 'mailman' and it's owner
> 'mailman-owner' when 'mailman' is also a local user. I think
> 'mailman at ...' means 'mailman at example.com' where 'example.com' is your
> domain. I haven't a clue about the broader meaning of those lines.
>
> Sorry I can't be more help.
>   

Oh, I definitely appreciate your taking the time to help - I certainly 
don't think it's anybody's job to help Peter :-)  I think I'll try this 
out over on the qmail list & see how that goes.  Thanks again -

Peter


From perl at ipchains.ru  Fri Aug 25 17:49:48 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg D.)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:49:48 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] setting moderator password with command line
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200608250833310906df57f8c9@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200608250833310906df57f8c9@msapiro>
Message-ID: <44EF1C1C.9090709@ipchains.ru>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Oleg D. wrote:
>
>   
>> Alan Holmes wrote:
>>     
>>> Is there a way to set the moderator password with one of the command line
>>> tools?
>>>       
>
>   
>> $PREFIX/mailman/bin/mmsitepass
>>     
>
>
> No! mmsitepass sets only the site admin password or the sitewide list
> creator password.
>
> There is bin/change_pw that can be used to change a list's admin
> password, but not it's moderator password.
>
>   
Whoops, sorry for mistake.
Lil brain-buggy after hard-working day. ;-)

Oleg D.

-- 
don't believe every word people use to say, they might be wrong.

an undefined problem has infinitive number of solutions.



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug 25 17:55:30 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 08:55:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Log entries refer to which list?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060825100317.02ec1b30@mail.prin.edu>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608250855300625bdf4124f@msapiro>

Allan Trick wrote:

>I was trying to determine if a message was sent to the lists it 
>should have been sent to, and see two different types of entries in 
>my SMTP log:
>
>>Aug 24 16:23:57 2006 (18946) 
>><6.2.3.4.2.20060824161925.02ded760 at mail.prin.edu> smtp for 41 
>>recips, completed in 8.864 seconds


This is a delivery of one message to the subscribers of one list with
41 eligible recipients.


>>Aug 24 16:23:58 2006 (18946) 
>><mailman.0.1156454519.18944.2012 at mail.prin.edu> smtp for 1 recips, 
>>completed in 0.296 seconds


This is an internally generated mailman message (you can tell by the
form of the message ID). It could be an owner or user notification of
some kind.


>Does the first line indicate the sending of a message to one list, 
>which has 41 members?  Is there one line like this per list that 
>receives a message?  If so, how does one determine which list that is?


Yes. Look in the 'post' log whose entries have message ID and list
name. You can correlate thes with 'smtp' log entries by message ID or
in the case of posts to multiple lists with the same message ID, by
timestamp.

Note that current Mailman versions include the list name in the smtp
log message.

You can do the same in your version by putting the following in
mm_cfg.py

SMTP_LOG_EVERY_MESSAGE = (
    'smtp',
    '%(msg_message-id)s smtp to %(listname)s for %(#recips)d recips,
completed in %(time).3f seconds')

(this is 3 lines, the last of which is wrapped by my MUA).


>And what would the difference be in the second example?  I'm guessing 
>that is referring to maybe an umbrella list that was sent to.


See above.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From perl at ipchains.ru  Fri Aug 25 18:03:11 2006
From: perl at ipchains.ru (Oleg D.)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 20:03:11 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Log entries refer to which list?
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200608250855300625bdf4124f@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200608250855300625bdf4124f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <44EF1F3F.1070502@ipchains.ru>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Allan Trick wrote:
>
>   
>> I was trying to determine if a message was sent to the lists it 
>> should have been sent to, and see two different types of entries in 
>> my SMTP log:
>>
>>     
>>> Aug 24 16:23:57 2006 (18946) 
>>> <6.2.3.4.2.20060824161925.02ded760 at mail.prin.edu> smtp for 41 
>>> recips, completed in 8.864 seconds
>>>       
>
>
> This is a delivery of one message to the subscribers of one list with
> 41 eligible recipients.
>
>
>   
>>> Aug 24 16:23:58 2006 (18946) 
>>> <mailman.0.1156454519.18944.2012 at mail.prin.edu> smtp for 1 recips, 
>>> completed in 0.296 seconds
>>>       
>
>
> This is an internally generated mailman message (you can tell by the
> form of the message ID). It could be an owner or user notification of
> some kind.
>
>
>   
>> Does the first line indicate the sending of a message to one list, 
>> which has 41 members?  Is there one line like this per list that 
>> receives a message?  If so, how does one determine which list that is?
>>     
>
>
> Yes. Look in the 'post' log whose entries have message ID and list
> name. You can correlate thes with 'smtp' log entries by message ID or
> in the case of posts to multiple lists with the same message ID, by
> timestamp.
>
> Note that current Mailman versions include the list name in the smtp
> log message.
>
> You can do the same in your version by putting the following in
> mm_cfg.py
>
> SMTP_LOG_EVERY_MESSAGE = (
>     'smtp',
>     '%(msg_message-id)s smtp to %(listname)s for %(#recips)d recips,
> completed in %(time).3f seconds')
>
> (this is 3 lines, the last of which is wrapped by my MUA).
>
>
>   
>> And what would the difference be in the second example?  I'm guessing 
>> that is referring to maybe an umbrella list that was sent to.
>>     
>
>
> See above.
>
>   
So looking thru this message I figure out that mailman has no any tool 
to be more ``friendly with verbose''.
This i mean, ``exim'' has such a tool like `exigrep' helping me surfing 
thru logs by ID and parsing out all info about delivery (or error) on 
that ID.
I mean I do `exigrep 'foo.diman' /var/log/exim_mainlog` and it greps 
'foo.domain' (or other PATTERN) parses out Message-ID and greps 
everything that has this Message-ID from same log file...


--
Oleg D.

-- 
don't believe every word people use to say, they might be wrong.

an undefined problem has infinitive number of solutions.



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug 25 18:49:16 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 09:49:16 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message IDs & Security
In-Reply-To: <20060825113604.69290.qmail@web25705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082509491607183433313e@msapiro>

Jon Loose wrote:

>Thanks Brad/Mark for comments.  It seems outlook is to blame for the message ids.  Re: Security, I will pass back to the list anything I find that's simple enough for me!  The potential feature set of 2.2 looks good. Any guesstimates on when this will be coming?(!)  Are there plans for 2.2 to be as easy to apply as an upgrade as the 2.1.x releases have been?


Yes. Mailman 2.2 should be as easy to apply as 2.1.x upgrades.

And I know I'll regret saying this, but 2.2 should be released in beta
at least before the end of 2006, but the security changes I mentioned
earlier in this thread won't be in the initial 2.2 release.


>One further issue: Is it possible to discover who has been invited to join a list but has not yet responded to the invitation email?


bin/dumpdb lists/<listname>/pending.pck

and look at entries with a code of 'S'.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jjloose at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Aug 25 19:29:04 2006
From: jjloose at yahoo.co.uk (Jon Loose)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:29:04 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message IDs & Security
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006082509491607183433313e@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20060825172904.90891.qmail@web25712.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Thanks for lots of good/useful news here - especially the tentative beta release date!  

On running dumpdb, I noticed a couple of long-standing invitations.  When an invitation is issued, is there a time-period after which mailman "uninvites" the individual concerned?

The ability to produce this list via the web interface would be a most useful feature for web-based listadmins of invitation-only lists, I suspect.  

Thanks,

Jon

----- Original Message ----
From: Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>
To: Jon Loose <jjloose at yahoo.co.uk>; mailman-users at python.org
Sent: Friday, 25 August, 2006 5:49:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Message IDs & Security

Jon Loose wrote:

>Thanks Brad/Mark for comments.  It seems outlook is to blame for the message ids.  Re: Security, I will pass back to the list anything I find that's simple enough for me!  The potential feature set of 2.2 looks good. Any guesstimates on when this will be coming?(!)  Are there plans for 2.2 to be as easy to apply as an upgrade as the 2.1.x releases have been?


Yes. Mailman 2.2 should be as easy to apply as 2.1.x upgrades.

And I know I'll regret saying this, but 2.2 should be released in beta
at least before the end of 2006, but the security changes I mentioned
earlier in this thread won't be in the initial 2.2 release.


>One further issue: Is it possible to discover who has been invited to join a list but has not yet responded to the invitation email?


bin/dumpdb lists/<listname>/pending.pck

and look at entries with a code of 'S'.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan






From spyropolymiadis at kromestudios.com  Thu Aug 24 04:19:04 2006
From: spyropolymiadis at kromestudios.com (Spyro Polymiadis)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 11:49:04 +0930
Subject: [Mailman-Users] lists within lists
Message-ID: <44ED0C98.6090705@kromestudios.com>

Hi all,

We're running a site with a mailman 2.1.5 configuration with 40-50 lists
on it, and some lists have a list address as a subscriber to the list..

ie the general@ list might have a bunch of individual addresses and an
otherlist@ address also as a member,  (and the otherlist@ also contains
individual addresses)

So, what happens, is that when an email is sent to the general@ list it
gets subject modified [General] as normal, but the people on the
otherlist@ also get rewritten so they get mail that appears as
"[Otherlist][General] Subject line"..

My question is, is there a way to have mailman not include the 2nd subject
tag when posting to the general@ list (for the otherlist@ subscribers)?
but also still retain it when sending explicitly to otherlist@

Cheers
Spyro


-- 



This message and its attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information. This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you may not copy or deliver this message or its attachments to anyone. Rather, you should permanently delete this message and its attachments and kindly notify the sender by reply e-mail. Any content of this message and its attachments, which does not relate to the official business of the sending company must be taken not to have been sent or endorsed by the sending company or any of its related entities. No warranty is made that the e-mail or attachment(s) are free from computer virus or other defect.



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug 25 19:54:59 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:54:59 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Message IDs & Security
In-Reply-To: <20060825172904.90891.qmail@web25712.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082510545909377643f244@msapiro>

Jon Loose wrote:
>
>On running dumpdb, I noticed a couple of long-standing invitations.  When an invitation is issued, is there a time-period after which mailman "uninvites" the individual concerned?


All pending requests including invitations expire after
PENDING_REQUEST_LIFE which is set in Defaults.py to 3 days, but can be
overridden in mm_cfg.py.

Expired requests may remain in the file for a time, but they can't be
used and will eventually be deleted.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug 25 19:57:19 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:57:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] lists within lists
In-Reply-To: <44ED0C98.6090705@kromestudios.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082510571902347643ef5d@msapiro>

Spyro Polymiadis wrote:
>
>My question is, is there a way to have mailman not include the 2nd subject
>tag when posting to the general@ list (for the otherlist@ subscribers)?
>but also still retain it when sending explicitly to otherlist@

Not without modifying Mailman code.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jwblist3 at olympus.net  Fri Aug 25 19:57:43 2006
From: jwblist3 at olympus.net (John W. Baxter)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:57:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Why Not Upgrade to 2.1.8?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060825075415.0630bf70@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <C1148827.E477%jwblist3@olympus.net>

On 8/25/06 8:07 AM, "Dragon" <dragon at crimson-dragon.com> wrote:

> Security for one. Much of the impetus for releasing later versions in
> the 2.1.X branch was for that reason.

I don't know what, if anything, RedHat is doing about backporting the
security changes.  For things in general, they are pretty good about
backporting upstream security fixes.

Some, at least, of the ones present in 2.1.8 may be present in RedHat's
current 2.1.5.  Or not, of course.

  --John




From spyropolymiadis at kromestudios.com  Fri Aug 25 19:06:57 2006
From: spyropolymiadis at kromestudios.com (Spyro Polymiadis)
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 02:36:57 +0930
Subject: [Mailman-Users] lists within lists
Message-ID: <44EF2E31.7080105@kromestudios.com>

Hi all,

We're running a site with a mailman 2.1.5 configuration with 40-50 lists
on it, and some lists have a list address as a subscriber to the list..

ie the general@ list might have a bunch of individual addresses and an
otherlist@ address also as a member,  (and the otherlist@ also contains
individual addresses)

So, what happens, is that when an email is sent to the general@ list it
gets subject modified [General] as normal, but the people on the
otherlist@ also get rewritten so they get mail that appears as
"[Otherlist][General] Subject line"..

My question is, is there a way to have mailman not include the 2nd subject
tag when posting to the general@ list (for the otherlist@ subscribers)?
but also still retain it when sending explicitly to otherlist@

Cheers
Spyro




This message and its attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information. This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you may not copy or deliver this message or its attachments to anyone. Rather, you should permanently delete this message and its attachments and kindly notify the sender by reply e-mail. Any content of this message and its attachments, which does not relate to the official business of the sending company must be taken not to have been sent or endorsed by the sending company or any of its related entities. No warranty is made that the e-mail or attachment(s) are free from computer virus or other defect.



From spyropolymiadis at kromestudios.com  Fri Aug 25 19:08:01 2006
From: spyropolymiadis at kromestudios.com (Spyro Polymiadis)
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 02:38:01 +0930
Subject: [Mailman-Users] lists within lists
Message-ID: <44EF2E71.4020306@kromestudios.com>

Hi all,

We're running a site with a mailman 2.1.5 configuration with 40-50 lists
on it, and some lists have a list address as a subscriber to the list..

ie the general@ list might have a bunch of individual addresses and an
otherlist@ address also as a member,  (and the otherlist@ also contains
individual addresses)

So, what happens, is that when an email is sent to the general@ list it
gets subject modified [General] as normal, but the people on the
otherlist@ also get rewritten so they get mail that appears as
"[Otherlist][General] Subject line"..

My question is, is there a way to have mailman not include the 2nd subject
tag when posting to the general@ list (for the otherlist@ subscribers)?
but also still retain it when sending explicitly to otherlist@

Cheers
Spyro



From spyropolymiadis at kromestudios.com  Fri Aug 25 18:43:05 2006
From: spyropolymiadis at kromestudios.com (Spyro Polymiadis)
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 02:13:05 +0930
Subject: [Mailman-Users] lists within lists
Message-ID: <44EF2899.4030708@kromestudios.com>

Hi all,

We're running a site with a mailman 2.1.5 configuration with 40-50 lists
on it, and some lists have a list address as a subscriber to the list..

ie the general@ list might have a bunch of individual addresses and an
otherlist@ address also as a member,  (and the otherlist@ also contains
individual addresses)

So, what happens, is that when an email is sent to the general@ list it
gets subject modified [General] as normal, but the people on the
otherlist@ also get rewritten so they get mail that appears as
"[Otherlist][General] Subject line"..

My question is, is there a way to have mailman not include the 2nd subject
tag when posting to the general@ list (for the otherlist@ subscribers)?
but also still retain it when sending explicitly to otherlist@

Cheers
Spyro


-- 




This message and its attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information. This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you may not copy or deliver this message or its attachments to anyone. Rather, you should permanently delete this message and its attachments and kindly notify the sender by reply e-mail. Any content of this message and its attachments, which does not relate to the official business of the sending company must be taken not to have been sent or endorsed by the sending company or any of its related entities. No warranty is made that the e-mail or attachment(s) are free from computer virus or other defect.



From edjusted at layerblue.net  Fri Aug 25 21:20:14 2006
From: edjusted at layerblue.net (ed)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 12:20:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not working...help pls
Message-ID: <p0600200ec114f7292cf3@[192.168.0.120]>

I'm having problems with a maillman installation that *used* to work fine. I'm not quite sure what stopped working. i don't believe any updates or changes were made on the server since the last time it worked and when it stopped working.

I'm running Mailman 2.1.8 on Mac OS X 10.4.7. The MTA is Postfix.

When I send e-mail to any list on the server, it seems to get swallowed up. If I try sending it from an unmoderated address, nothing happens. And if I try sending it from a moderated address, nothing happens and it doesn't show up in Tend to pending moderator requests. I've tried fixing Mailman perms with the checkperms command. At first it found some problems but they've all been fixed.

I've also confirmed that postfix is working fine. I can send e-mail from the server with no problems.

Can someone help me on the next steps of troubleshooting?

Thanks!
Ed


From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug 25 21:38:22 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 12:38:22 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman not working...help pls
In-Reply-To: <p0600200ec114f7292cf3@[192.168.0.120]>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608251238220359775defdd@msapiro>

ed wrote:
>
>Can someone help me on the next steps of troubleshooting?


<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.014.htp>

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From atrick at prin.edu  Fri Aug 25 22:49:13 2006
From: atrick at prin.edu (Allan Trick)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 15:49:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Quicker way to subscribe someone?
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060825154558.02d37f88@mail.prin.edu>

Sorry to post so many questions in the space of a week to this 
list.  I work at a school and all the changes we make to our mailing 
lists tend to take place just once a year--now.  So in a few days 
I'll probably go away and you won't hear from me again till next summer.  :-)

My question this time is:  is there a simpler way to subscribe one 
person to all 20 of our lists, and have the 'mod' bit unchecked for 
her?  I've been going into each list thru the web interface, 
selecting Mass Subscription, adding the person, and then going to the 
Membership List and unchecking the 'mod' bit that is on by default.

I'll be there's a much simpler command-line way to do it.  Hope so!

Thanks,

Allan



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Aug 25 23:30:13 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:30:13 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Quicker way to subscribe someone?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060825154558.02d37f88@mail.prin.edu>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060825154558.02d37f88@mail.prin.edu>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060825142425.0635b948@crimson-dragon.com>

Allan Trick sent the message below at 13:49 8/25/2006:
>Sorry to post so many questions in the space of a week to this
>list.  I work at a school and all the changes we make to our mailing
>lists tend to take place just once a year--now.  So in a few days
>I'll probably go away and you won't hear from me again till next summer.  :-)
>
>My question this time is:  is there a simpler way to subscribe one
>person to all 20 of our lists, and have the 'mod' bit unchecked for
>her?  I've been going into each list thru the web interface,
>selecting Mass Subscription, adding the person, and then going to the
>Membership List and unchecking the 'mod' bit that is on by default.
>
>I'll be there's a much simpler command-line way to do it.  Hope so!
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

You can do this easily from the web interface and not have to change 
the setting for each individual user.

On the Privacy Options->Sender Filters page there is a setting to 
control if new members are moderated by default. You would want to 
set this to No before mass subscribing anyone else.

At the bottom of the Membership Management page, you can set the 
moderation bit for all subscribers on a list to on or off in one operation.


Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From atrick at prin.edu  Fri Aug 25 23:46:38 2006
From: atrick at prin.edu (Allan Trick)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:46:38 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Quicker way to subscribe someone?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060825142425.0635b948@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060825154558.02d37f88@mail.prin.edu>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060825142425.0635b948@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060825164339.0305cb40@mail.prin.edu>

At 04:30 PM 8/25/2006, Dragon wrote:

>You can do this easily from the web interface and not have to change 
>the setting for each individual user.
>
>On the Privacy Options->Sender Filters page there is a setting to 
>control if new members are moderated by default. You would want to 
>set this to No before mass subscribing anyone else.
>
>At the bottom of the Membership Management page, you can set the 
>moderation bit for all subscribers on a list to on or off in one operation.

That still requires going to the admin page for each of 20 lists.

I was thinking of using "add_members" on the command line, but I 
don't see a way to change the mod bit there (my default is to have it 
on, but I want it off for this person I'm adding to all lists).

Any other ideas?

Allan



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Fri Aug 25 23:46:35 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:46:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Quicker way to subscribe someone?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060825142425.0635b948@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060825154558.02d37f88@mail.prin.edu>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060825142425.0635b948@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060825144453.035e33b8@crimson-dragon.com>

Dragon sent the message below at 14:30 8/25/2006:
>Allan Trick sent the message below at 13:49 8/25/2006:
> >Sorry to post so many questions in the space of a week to this
> >list.  I work at a school and all the changes we make to our mailing
> >lists tend to take place just once a year--now.  So in a few days
> >I'll probably go away and you won't hear from me again till next 
> summer.  :-)
> >
> >My question this time is:  is there a simpler way to subscribe one
> >person to all 20 of our lists, and have the 'mod' bit unchecked for
> >her?  I've been going into each list thru the web interface,
> >selecting Mass Subscription, adding the person, and then going to the
> >Membership List and unchecking the 'mod' bit that is on by default.
> >
> >I'll be there's a much simpler command-line way to do it.  Hope so!
>---------------- End original message. ---------------------
>
>You can do this easily from the web interface and not have to change
>the setting for each individual user.
>
>On the Privacy Options->Sender Filters page there is a setting to
>control if new members are moderated by default. You would want to
>set this to No before mass subscribing anyone else.
>
>At the bottom of the Membership Management page, you can set the
>moderation bit for all subscribers on a list to on or off in one operation.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

I just added these two topics to the FAQ.

http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.065.htp

and

http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.066.htp

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From msapiro at value.net  Fri Aug 25 23:54:44 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:54:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Quicker way to subscribe someone?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060825154558.02d37f88@mail.prin.edu>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082514544406250c2f5c5d@msapiro>

Allan Trick wrote:
>
>My question this time is:  is there a simpler way to subscribe one 
>person to all 20 of our lists, and have the 'mod' bit unchecked for 
>her?  I've been going into each list thru the web interface, 
>selecting Mass Subscription, adding the person, and then going to the 
>Membership List and unchecking the 'mod' bit that is on by default.
>
>I'll be there's a much simpler command-line way to do it.  Hope so!


Consider something like

#!/bin/sh
for list in `bin/list_lists --bare`
do echo $1 | bin/add_members -r - -w y -a n $list
done

in the Mailman installation directory, cd there and run

./script user_to_subscribe at example.com

See bin/add_members --help for an explaination of the options.

You'll still need to set Privacy options->Sender
filters->default_member_moderation to No for each list if you don't
want the new member to be moderated.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From kim.leandersson at chs.chalmers.se  Sat Aug 26 00:15:53 2006
From: kim.leandersson at chs.chalmers.se (Kim Leandersson)
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 00:15:53 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrading, changing MTA and moving between servers
Message-ID: <78C3380FC84D724287837FD9A8EFC02F016142E8@vera.chs.chalmers.se>

Hi,

For starters I have read the documentation available and done some
googleing before this post.

Today we have about 25-30 lists running on an old Debian Woody
installation with postfix as MTA. Since the installation is old Mailman
runs version 2.0.11. Our new server is running Qmail, Rhel4 and Mailman
2.1.5 and my question is about best practice for this migration. 

I've read some pages telling me that the administrative addresses has
changed between these versions. I'm not sure if the best way is:

1) to create the lists on the new server, use the config-list script to
export the config and the import this on the new server

2) just manually copy the lists/listname and archives directories to the
new server

3) upgrade the old server to 2.1.5 and the move to new server?

At this moment I prefer 1) since I'm really not that familiar with qmail
and it would be nice if the system handled the creation of aliases. But
how should I then procede? Should I run config-list to export/import or
can I just copy som directories to the new server and fix the
permissions and the URL:s?

//kim


From msapiro at value.net  Sat Aug 26 01:59:14 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:59:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrading,
	changing MTA and moving between servers
In-Reply-To: <78C3380FC84D724287837FD9A8EFC02F016142E8@vera.chs.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <PC176020060825165914032876d0efb6@msapiro>

Kim Leandersson wrote:
>
>I've read some pages telling me that the administrative addresses has
>changed between these versions. I'm not sure if the best way is:
>
>1) to create the lists on the new server, use the config-list script to
>export the config and the import this on the new server


Not the best way for two reasons.

When you dump the config with config_list -o and then import with
config_list -i, the 2.0 attributes which are redefined/replaced in 2.1
won't be properly converted.

Transferring the list membership (via list_members -> add_members)
doesn't preserve all member options.


>2) just manually copy the lists/listname and archives directories to the
>new server


This is the way to go.

Caveats - Do not create the list on the new server before the transfer.
If you do, you will create a lists/listname/config.pck and Mailman
will never see to lists/listname/config.db you move over.

Does the domain name change? If so, you'll need to run fix_url on the
moved lists and may want to rebuild the archives with bin/arch --wipe
in order to fix the absolute links to the listinfo page on the archive
index pages (or you can fix these manually or with a script).

You will also have to deal with telling qmail about the lists, but I
can't help with that.


>3) upgrade the old server to 2.1.5 and the move to new server?


No need to do this. 2) is sufficient.


>At this moment I prefer 1) since I'm really not that familiar with qmail
>and it would be nice if the system handled the creation of aliases.

Mailman doesn't know qmail aliases. Mailman can do Postfix
automatically (MTA = 'Postfix'), and exim and maybe others can be
configured so aliases are not needed. There is a qmail-to-mailman.py
script in the contrib directory of the distribution to eliminate the
need for aliases in qmail, but I don't know to use it or what its
limitations are.


>But
>how should I then procede? Should I run config-list to export/import or
>can I just copy som directories to the new server and fix the
>permissions and the URL:s?


Do the latter as I indicate above.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sat Aug 26 04:52:52 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 21:52:52 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need to stop mailman
In-Reply-To: <44EF0E59.2050409@comcast.net>
References: <44EDCC64.3080208@comcast.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060824121426.032d9400@berrach.com>
	<44EF0E59.2050409@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <p0624050dc11564e725db@[192.168.1.102]>

At 10:51 AM -0400 2006-08-25, Gary Hall wrote:

>  I have set up a "test" list that only has the names of the principles of
>  this mailing endeavor. We will first send out the adv to ourselves and
>  be sure the adv looks as we expect it too and not other problems crop
>  up. After the test run we will send out the adv to the main list. My
>  primary reason for this is to check out this guy's html code every time
>  - just in case.

Keep in mind that what looks fine to your MUA may not look good in 
some other.  This is the classic problem with HTML, especially as 
sent via e-mail, and most especially as that is processed and munged 
by mailing lists.

Think about any particular web page, but as viewed by any of a 
zillion different web browsers -- not just Microsoft, but also 
Mozilla, Opera, iCab, Nokia, PalmOS, and every single other browser 
in existence.  Now, multiply that problem by a factor of about a 
billion, because there are a lot of additional programs involved in 
the process that could munge the content beyond recognition.


Fundamentally, if you are depending on HTML being properly formatted 
and transmitted to your clients using Mailman, you are playing the 
e-mail equivalent of Russian Roulette.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From gary.chris at comcast.net  Sat Aug 26 05:24:18 2006
From: gary.chris at comcast.net (Gary Hall)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 23:24:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need to stop mailman
In-Reply-To: <p0624050dc11564e725db@[192.168.1.102]>
References: <44EDCC64.3080208@comcast.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060824121426.032d9400@berrach.com>
	<44EF0E59.2050409@comcast.net>
	<p0624050dc11564e725db@[192.168.1.102]>
Message-ID: <44EFBEE2.6010000@comcast.net>

Hi Brad,

Good thoughts - thanks.

This guy who is formulating the advertisements is the only one who is 
authorized to send mail to the server and have it delivered to the list.

I am going to pass on your "knowledge" to him and hopefully he will take 
heed.

Thanks again.

Warm regards,

Gary

Brad Knowles wrote:

> At 10:51 AM -0400 2006-08-25, Gary Hall wrote:
>
>>  I have set up a "test" list that only has the names of the 
>> principles of
>>  this mailing endeavor. We will first send out the adv to ourselves and
>>  be sure the adv looks as we expect it too and not other problems crop
>>  up. After the test run we will send out the adv to the main list. My
>>  primary reason for this is to check out this guy's html code every time
>>  - just in case.
>
>
> Keep in mind that what looks fine to your MUA may not look good in 
> some other.  This is the classic problem with HTML, especially as sent 
> via e-mail, and most especially as that is processed and munged by 
> mailing lists.
>
> Think about any particular web page, but as viewed by any of a zillion 
> different web browsers -- not just Microsoft, but also Mozilla, Opera, 
> iCab, Nokia, PalmOS, and every single other browser in existence.  
> Now, multiply that problem by a factor of about a billion, because 
> there are a lot of additional programs involved in the process that 
> could munge the content beyond recognition.
>
>
> Fundamentally, if you are depending on HTML being properly formatted 
> and transmitted to your clients using Mailman, you are playing the 
> e-mail equivalent of Russian Roulette.
>


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sat Aug 26 05:32:33 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 22:32:33 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need to stop mailman
In-Reply-To: <44EFBEE2.6010000@comcast.net>
References: <44EDCC64.3080208@comcast.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060824121426.032d9400@berrach.com>
	<44EF0E59.2050409@comcast.net>	<p0624050dc11564e725db@[192.168.1.102]>
	<44EFBEE2.6010000@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <p06240511c1157037cc70@[192.168.1.102]>

At 11:24 PM -0400 2006-08-25, Gary Hall wrote:

>  This guy who is formulating the advertisements is the only one who is
>  authorized to send mail to the server and have it delivered to the list.
>
>  I am going to pass on your "knowledge" to him and hopefully he will take
>  heed.

Please note, my comments are aimed at the problem of fully compliant 
HTML that is hopelessly munged beyond recognition at one or more 
places where the message passes through.  Most web browsers aren't 
actually fully compliant with HTML themselves, and things you may do 
to make things look better with one particular browser that is broken 
in one particular way may make things look worse for other browsers 
that may be broken in other ways.  And the situation just gets worse 
when you throw in multiple different mail servers, one or more 
mailing list manager(s), and multiple different clients.

If you don't have properly formed HTML in the first place, or it's 
not being sent by the appropriate people in the appropriate way, then 
that's a totally different problem.


Anyway, good luck!

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From kim.leandersson at chs.chalmers.se  Sat Aug 26 18:37:28 2006
From: kim.leandersson at chs.chalmers.se (Kim Leandersson)
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:37:28 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrading,
	changing MTA and moving between servers
In-Reply-To: <PC176020060825165914032876d0efb6@msapiro>
Message-ID: <78C3380FC84D724287837FD9A8EFC02F016142EF@vera.chs.chalmers.se>

> 
> >2) just manually copy the lists/listname and archives 
> directories to the
> >new server
> 
> 
> This is the way to go.
> 
> Caveats - Do not create the list on the new server before the 
> transfer.
> If you do, you will create a lists/listname/config.pck and Mailman
> will never see to lists/listname/config.db you move over.
> 
> Does the domain name change? If so, you'll need to run fix_url on the
> moved lists and may want to rebuild the archives with bin/arch --wipe
> in order to fix the absolute links to the listinfo page on the archive
> index pages (or you can fix these manually or with a script).
> 
> You will also have to deal with telling qmail about the lists, but I
> can't help with that.
> 
Thanks for the help, a few following questions...

Ok, I'll copy the /lists/<listname> directories to the new server. Then
how do i tell Mailman to create config.pck out of the config.db? Does
mailman do this without me telling it to do so, or do I have to run some
command or maybe access the web admin pages?

As for the qmail I've found
http://www.uni.edu/~prefect/devel/mailman-qmail/index.shtml which seems
to fix the aliases for me.

//kim


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Sat Aug 26 19:07:44 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 10:07:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrading,
 changing MTA and moving between  servers
In-Reply-To: <78C3380FC84D724287837FD9A8EFC02F016142EF@vera.chs.chalmers .se>
References: <PC176020060825165914032876d0efb6@msapiro>
	<78C3380FC84D724287837FD9A8EFC02F016142EF@vera.chs.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060826100510.060cc458@crimson-dragon.com>

Kim Leandersson sent the message below at 09:37 AM 8/26/2006:

>Ok, I'll copy the /lists/<listname> directories to the new server. Then
>how do i tell Mailman to create config.pck out of the config.db? Does
>mailman do this without me telling it to do so, or do I have to run some
>command or maybe access the web admin pages?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

When you start the new version of mailman, it will look for 
config.pck files where it expects to find the list information. If it 
does not find them, it then looks for config.db files. If it finds 
them, it automatically converts them from the db format to the pck format.

So all you have to do is start (or restart) mailman via the 
mailmanctl script and this will be done for you.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From msapiro at value.net  Sat Aug 26 19:52:02 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 10:52:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] upgrading,
	changing MTA and moving between servers
In-Reply-To: <78C3380FC84D724287837FD9A8EFC02F016142EF@vera.chs.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608261052020000f68a6e62@msapiro>

Kim Leandersson wrote:
>
>Ok, I'll copy the /lists/<listname> directories to the new server. Then
>how do i tell Mailman to create config.pck out of the config.db? Does
>mailman do this without me telling it to do so, or do I have to run some
>command or maybe access the web admin pages?


The first time the list is accessed by Mailman on the new server,
Mailman will convert the config.db to a current config.pck. This
access can be due to a post, subscribe, unsubscribe, web admin access,
etc. It doesn't matter - the conversion will be done transparently.

After the list has been accessed and there are config.pck and
config.pck.last files in the lists/listname directory, it is a good
idea to remove the config.db and config.db.last files. There is a
remote possibility that at some future time, there could be a problem
accessing the config.pck* files and Mailman would fall back to the now
out of date config.db, so its better if the config.db* files are
removed.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From rosewood at gmx.de  Sun Aug 27 04:05:56 2006
From: rosewood at gmx.de (Rosewood)
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:05:56 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing the from email address
Message-ID: <01bb01c6c97d$559ee710$00dcb530$@de>

I've set up a number of mailman lists with dreamhost.  As far as I can tell,
everything is working okay.  Users are able to post messages by sending an
email to listname at domain.com but we need emails delivered from the same
address.  Currently incoming emails come from listname-bounces at domain.com .

 



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Aug 27 04:51:56 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:51:56 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing the from email address
In-Reply-To: <01bb01c6c97d$559ee710$00dcb530$@de>
References: <01bb01c6c97d$559ee710$00dcb530$@de>
Message-ID: <p06240516c116b8febe0b@[192.168.1.102]>

At 9:05 PM -0500 2006-08-26, Rosewood wrote:

>                               Users are able to post messages by sending an
>  email to listname at domain.com but we need emails delivered from the same
>  address.  Currently incoming emails come from listname-bounces at domain.com.

That's exactly the envelope sender address that should be used for 
sending the messages.  Otherwise, all bounces would come in to the 
list and be redistributed to all the other recipients, which would 
cause another set of bounces, ad infinitum.

I suggest you read the Mailman documentation and FAQ.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Sun Aug 27 04:52:31 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:52:31 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing the from email address
In-Reply-To: <01bb01c6c97d$559ee710$00dcb530$@de>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608261952310671fae7fe1e@msapiro>

Rosewood wrote:

>I've set up a number of mailman lists with dreamhost.


Is this your Mailman installation or Dreamhost's?


>As far as I can tell,
>everything is working okay.  Users are able to post messages by sending an
>email to listname at domain.com but we need emails delivered from the same
>address.  Currently incoming emails come from listname-bounces at domain.com .


The envelope sender is listname-bounces so automated bounce processing
can work. If you change this (assuming you can - it requires patching
Mailman), bounces will be returned to the list.

Mailman also sets the Sender: header to listname-bounces. You can
probably change this without affecting bounce processing except for
some non-compliant MTAs, but this too requires patching.

See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq02.003.htp>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From williamstdd at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 27 05:18:05 2006
From: williamstdd at yahoo.com (Todd Williams)
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:18:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman in frames
Message-ID: <20060827031805.21451.qmail@web34807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I see that Mailman seems to work in frames "ok", but I have run into a small problem.  On one of my sites I want it to be private.  So to see the archive you must login.  It asks for a user name and password on every click...  month, thread, posting, etc. Is there a way around this?
   
  I have seen that if I access the sight unframed then it works works fine framed.  I assume this is a result of cookie being dropped in a manner that is accessible everywhere.
   
  Thanks in advance,
  Todd

 		
---------------------------------
 All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

From david.diskin at verizon.net  Sun Aug 27 06:31:53 2006
From: david.diskin at verizon.net (David Diskin)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 00:31:53 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't send messages to list
Message-ID: <D95FC6CB-4A1B-4F48-86AF-B19CB1219D56@verizon.net>

We have an announcement list set up on a high speed rails server.   
(high speed rails is a successor hosting service to zettai.net).   
Moderated members can't post.  We have a few unmoderated members who  
are allowed to post.  What is happening lately is that new posts are  
visible in the archives, but in general are not mailed out or may not  
be mailed out for several hours to several days.   There are no  
errors in the error log.  The members allowed to post have verizon  
dsl accounts.  Is there an explanation for this behavior?  Please let  
me know if more information is required to trouble shoot this  
problem.   The high speed rail admin has not helped to solve the  
problem.  Thanks.

David Diskin
==============================
David Diskin, david.diskin at verizon.net



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Aug 27 06:54:41 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:54:41 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't send messages to list
In-Reply-To: <D95FC6CB-4A1B-4F48-86AF-B19CB1219D56@verizon.net>
References: <D95FC6CB-4A1B-4F48-86AF-B19CB1219D56@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <p06240518c116d5856db1@[192.168.1.102]>

At 12:31 AM -0400 2006-08-27, David Diskin wrote:

>                        What is happening lately is that new posts are
>  visible in the archives, but in general are not mailed out or may not
>  be mailed out for several hours to several days.   There are no
>  errors in the error log.  The members allowed to post have verizon
>  dsl accounts.  Is there an explanation for this behavior?

This is either a problem with the MTA on the server, or the outbound 
queue within Mailman.  Either way, the normal suggestions is to 
search the FAQ for "performance" and then follow the recommendations 
there.

Since you are using a hosting service, they would have to be the ones 
to apply the suggestions from the FAQ.

>                                                             Please let
>  me know if more information is required to trouble shoot this
>  problem.   The high speed rail admin has not helped to solve the
>  problem.  Thanks.

There's not much you can do.  If your provider is not being 
responsive to your problems and giving you the assistance you need, 
then you may want to consider finding a different provider -- and 
warning everyone about the provider you're having problems with.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Aug 27 06:52:18 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:52:18 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman in frames
In-Reply-To: <20060827031805.21451.qmail@web34807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060827031805.21451.qmail@web34807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p06240517c116d51e55a1@[192.168.1.102]>

At 8:18 PM -0700 2006-08-26, Todd Williams wrote:

>  I see that Mailman seems to work in frames "ok", but I have run into a
>  small problem.  On one of my sites I want it to be private.  So to see
>  the archive you must login.  It asks for a user name and password on
>  every click...  month, thread, posting, etc. Is there a way around this?

Sounds like a cookie problem, which is discussed in the FAQ.

>   I have seen that if I access the sight unframed then it works works
>  fine framed.  I assume this is a result of cookie being dropped in a
>  manner that is accessible everywhere.

I'm not sure how the use of frames will affect this issue.  Outside 
of frames, this kind of problem is typically because of a cookie 
problem, or perhaps an error in the way that URL rewriting is done on 
the web server.  But how frames plays in that mix, I have no idea.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Sun Aug 27 16:04:55 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 07:04:55 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't send messages to list
In-Reply-To: <p06240518c116d5856db1@[192.168.1.102]>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608270704550500fb663d2b@msapiro>

Brad Knowles wrote:

>At 12:31 AM -0400 2006-08-27, David Diskin wrote:
>
>>                        What is happening lately is that new posts are
>>  visible in the archives, but in general are not mailed out or may not
>>  be mailed out for several hours to several days.   There are no
>>  errors in the error log.  The members allowed to post have verizon
>>  dsl accounts.  Is there an explanation for this behavior?
>
>This is either a problem with the MTA on the server, or the outbound 
>queue within Mailman.  Either way, the normal suggestions is to 
>search the FAQ for "performance" and then follow the recommendations 
>there.


The symptoms are those of a hoplessly backlogged 'out' queue in
Mailman. If you have access to them, you can look at Mailman's
qfiles/out/ directory, which will probably contain a large number of
entries waiting to be processed, and Mailman's 'smtp' log. In the smtp
log, you will probably see that the time stamp of each entry is equal
to its processing time added to the timestamp of the previous entry
(i.e., there is no 'quiet time' between entries), and the processing
times may be much longer than those in the log from before 'lately'.
If you can find a place in the log where processing times suddenly
increase, that will pinpoint the time at which the MTA started taking
longer to process smtp transactions, thus causing the backlog.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From eric.howland at gmail.com  Sun Aug 27 17:17:01 2006
From: eric.howland at gmail.com (Eric Howland)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:17:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't send messages to list
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200608270704550500fb663d2b@msapiro>
References: <p06240518c116d5856db1@192.168.1.102>
	<PC1760200608270704550500fb663d2b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <bdb32ec50608270817g744f72ffna40b4a5c9af27e54@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/27/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> Brad Knowles wrote:
>
> >At 12:31 AM -0400 2006-08-27, David Diskin wrote:
> >
> >>                        What is happening lately is that new posts are
> >>  visible in the archives, but in general are not mailed out or may not
> >>  be mailed out for several hours to several days.   There are no
> >>  errors in the error log.  The members allowed to post have verizon
> >>  dsl accounts.  Is there an explanation for this behavior?
> >
> >This is either a problem with the MTA on the server, or the outbound
> >queue within Mailman.  Either way, the normal suggestions is to
> >search the FAQ for "performance" and then follow the recommendations
> >there.
>
>
> The symptoms are those of a hoplessly backlogged 'out' queue in
> Mailman. If you have access to them, you can look at Mailman's
> qfiles/out/ directory, which will probably contain a large number of
> entries waiting to be processed, and Mailman's 'smtp' log. In the smtp
> log, you will probably see that the time stamp of each entry is equal
> to its processing time added to the timestamp of the previous entry
> (i.e., there is no 'quiet time' between entries), and the processing
> times may be much longer than those in the log from before 'lately'.
> If you can find a place in the log where processing times suddenly
> increase, that will pinpoint the time at which the MTA started taking
> longer to process smtp transactions, thus causing the backlog.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/eric.howland%40gmail.com
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>

I have this problem as well. Mark's response describes my case.  In my
smtp-failures file I get:

[root at raid src]# tail /var/log/mailman/smtp-failure
Aug 27 04:20:05 2006 (23140) delivery to duga at wisc.edu failed with
code -1: (110, 'Connection timed out')
Aug 27 04:20:05 2006 (23140) delivery to mcvandin at wisc.edu failed with
code -1: (110, 'Connection timed out')
Aug 27 04:20:05 2006 (23140) delivery to bagbymc at email.uc.edu failed
with code -1: (110, 'Connection timed out')
Aug 27 04:20:05 2006 (23140) delivery to
rwenzlaff at neuroscience.mcw.edu failed with code -1: (110, 'Connection
timed out')
Aug 27 04:20:05 2006 (23140) delivery to nazes at charter.net failed with
code -1: please run connect() first
Aug 27 04:20:05 2006 (23140) delivery to diane at thekeyes.org failed
with code -1: please run connect() first
Aug 27 04:23:22 2006 (23140) Low level smtp error: (110, 'Connection
timed out'), msgid:
<mailman.0.1156389782.2645.friends_wingra at danenet.org>
Aug 27 04:23:33 2006 (23140) delivery to cvasseur at 0instant.com failed
with code -1: (110, 'Connection timed out')
Aug 27 04:26:53 2006 (23140) Low level smtp error: (110, 'Connection
timed out'), msgid: <001c01c6c72e$9f8b7e20$2502a8c0 at VALUED5BD4C299>
Aug 27 04:26:57 2006 (23140) Low level smtp error: please run
connect() first, msgid:
<001c01c6c72e$9f8b7e20$2502a8c0 at VALUED5BD4C299>


I take it that the Low level smtp errors are comming from my MTA
(postfix). In my case the problem was intermittent untill about a week
ago when it became steady.  I have posted to the postfix list but I
still have no understanding of who should be running connect().


[root at raid src]# tail /var/log/mailman/smtp
Aug 27 04:20:05 2006 (23140)
<20060822223840.11493.qmail at web54403.mail.yahoo.com> smtp for 93
recips, completed in 189.377 seconds
Aug 27 04:23:33 2006 (23140)
<mailman.0.1156389782.2645.friends_wingra at danenet.org> smtp for 1
recips, completed in 199.497 seconds

I get lots of entries arround (but not exactly) 189 seconds.  I wonder
if this is some kind of timeout.

I also get in my error file:

Aug 27 04:16:54 2006 (23140) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 111, in _oneloop
    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 167, in _onefile
    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Queue/OutgoingRunner.py", line 73, in _dispose
    self._func(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py", line 162, in process
    conn.quit()
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py", line 89, in quit
    self.__conn.quit()
  File "/usr/lib/python2.2/smtplib.py", line 702, in quit
    self.docmd("quit")
  File "/usr/lib/python2.2/smtplib.py", line 358, in docmd
    return self.getreply()
  File "/usr/lib/python2.2/smtplib.py", line 332, in getreply
    line = self.file.readline()
IOError: [Errno 104] Connection reset by peer

Aug 27 04:16:55 2006 (23140) SHUNTING:
1156261104.130233+d719c44d4802cd25a866736a4dcd4b9725db557c


Is the reset by peer comming from the MTA or beyond the MTA?

Eric


From williamstdd at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 27 17:19:41 2006
From: williamstdd at yahoo.com (Todd Williams)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 08:19:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman in frames
Message-ID: <20060827151941.79714.qmail@web34807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

    I had looked for FAQs on "frames", not "cookies".  Me bad.
  That FAQ <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.065.htp> is pretty generic, is there a repository for "fixes"?  I found the following two solutions using IE 6.0 (+ every Microsoft patch). 
   
  1) I dropped my cookie setting in privacy to "Low" from "Medium" which would remove the restriction "Restricts first-party cookies that use personally identifiable information without implicit consent".
   
  2) I added the domain of the list server ".mylistserver.org" (not the domain of the frame) to the sites as "always allow".
   
  Here is a note from Microsoft on their handling of cookies. <http://support.microsoft.com/kb/260971/en-us>.  
  I still do not know what "implicit consent" is. Seems my solutions are pretty explicit.  :-)
   
  Cheers,

      Todd 



 		
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2?/min or less.

From rlandman at hlinstruments.com  Sun Aug 27 17:42:15 2006
From: rlandman at hlinstruments.com (Bob Landman)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:42:15 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request
Message-ID: <E0F4E60D-AB2D-48D1-8D16-2D2F791DB049@hlinstruments.com>

Peter Green
Fri, 18 Aug 2006 02:44:54 -0700 wrote....

Apologies for this, but...

I can't get my lists to return a list of those members subscribed to  
them. I have followed the email commands in the FAQ and get replies  
saying that my command 'WHO' has been run, but I don't get a list in  
the way that I am used to with Listerver.
========
Peter,

You should not apologize; it's not a dumb question at all.  I know several intelligent IT people who have tried and failed to do this (not me - I'm no IT genius - I'm an EE not a software guru).  I've been managing Mailman lists for several years.  Every experiment I've tried to elicit a list of members has failed.  

I did as instructed and sent in the body of the mail "who password" to mylist-request at mylist.net and what came back was my who request, but no list of members.

In the documentation it says:

"3.62. How do I extract a list of my list's members (subscribers)?
The preferred way to do this is via the command line tool bin/list_members, but many list owners do not have access to this tool."

I think this is "the" problem.  The writers must have assumed that everyone has access to command line.  I don't as I use a commercial website which hosts Mailman as a service.  

Also note that the FAQ also later on says:

"- Visit the admin Membership Management...->Membership List pages one by one and copy/paste/edit the results."

Groan - they aren't kidding.  I think that's very telling.  And a very ugly solution when you have hundreds of subscribers as I do AND when the list crashes at the website provider (and of course their backup was corrupted as the script wasn't backing up the Mailman subscriber list).  Murphy's Law you know.

So what I did when the crash happened was to painfully go over all saved subscription requests (fortunately I had saved every one and I recommend all do that) manually filtering out those who later insubscribed and re-entered the rermainders in a text file which I, of course, saved.  I then pasted that into the Admin console Mass Subscription form.  550+ names - took me what seemed like forver to do that.

I'm not the only one who wants an easy way via the Admin console (so you don't have to make the membership list query available to all members (the instructions say the program is anal and won't let you as admin request the list until you do that [and I tried that too and it didn't matter] to generate a list of subscribers in text format that can be saved locally.  It does not have to be e-mailed, it can be a window in the console that can be copied and pasted into a text file.

Please, won't someone provide this feature?  It's basic to list administration.

Bob Landman
H&L Instruments, LLC
www.hlinstruments.com



From msapiro at value.net  Sun Aug 27 18:12:56 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 09:12:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request
In-Reply-To: <E0F4E60D-AB2D-48D1-8D16-2D2F791DB049@hlinstruments.com>
Message-ID: <PC176020060827091256084315036be3@msapiro>

Bob Landman wrote:

>Peter Green
>Fri, 18 Aug 2006 02:44:54 -0700 wrote....
>
>Apologies for this, but...
>
>I can't get my lists to return a list of those members subscribed to  
>them. I have followed the email commands in the FAQ and get replies  
>saying that my command 'WHO' has been run, but I don't get a list in  
>the way that I am used to with Listerver.
>========
>Peter,
>
>You should not apologize; it's not a dumb question at all.  I know several intelligent IT people who have tried and failed to do this (not me - I'm no IT genius - I'm an EE not a software guru).  I've been managing Mailman lists for several years.  Every experiment I've tried to elicit a list of members has failed.  
>
>I did as instructed and sent in the body of the mail "who password" to mylist-request at mylist.net and what came back was my who request, but no list of members.



The most likely reason for this is that all your list members are
'hidden', in turn because the "General Options->Default options for
new members joining this list" setting includes "Conceal the member's
address"



>Also note that the FAQ also later on says:
>
>"- Visit the admin Membership Management...->Membership List pages one by one and copy/paste/edit the results."


And the paragraph following that contains links to scripts that
automate the process.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From gary.chris at comcast.net  Sun Aug 27 18:22:25 2006
From: gary.chris at comcast.net (Gary Hall)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:22:25 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request
In-Reply-To: <E0F4E60D-AB2D-48D1-8D16-2D2F791DB049@hlinstruments.com>
References: <E0F4E60D-AB2D-48D1-8D16-2D2F791DB049@hlinstruments.com>
Message-ID: <44F1C6C1.3060503@comcast.net>

Hi Bob,

I agree that there should be a way to download the list and asked that 
question a while back.

Basically this is what they said ro me.

"The alternatives if you only have web access are also described in the 
FAQ. Both Jim's and my scripts work and have been used on lists with 
thousands of members. They require you to install Python, and the 
ClientCookie package if Python is pre 2.4, on your personal 
computer/workstation, but once that is done, they are simple to use.

The also said that there is already an RFE at:

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1156871&group_id=103&atid=350103.
If that doesn't describe what you want, you can add a comment or a new RFE."

Gary

Bob Landman wrote:

>Peter Green
>Fri, 18 Aug 2006 02:44:54 -0700 wrote....
>
>Apologies for this, but...
>
>I can't get my lists to return a list of those members subscribed to  
>them. I have followed the email commands in the FAQ and get replies  
>saying that my command 'WHO' has been run, but I don't get a list in  
>the way that I am used to with Listerver.
>========
>Peter,
>
>You should not apologize; it's not a dumb question at all.  I know several intelligent IT people who have tried and failed to do this (not me - I'm no IT genius - I'm an EE not a software guru).  I've been managing Mailman lists for several years.  Every experiment I've tried to elicit a list of members has failed.  
>
>I did as instructed and sent in the body of the mail "who password" to mylist-request at mylist.net and what came back was my who request, but no list of members.
>
>In the documentation it says:
>
>"3.62. How do I extract a list of my list's members (subscribers)?
>The preferred way to do this is via the command line tool bin/list_members, but many list owners do not have access to this tool."
>
>I think this is "the" problem.  The writers must have assumed that everyone has access to command line.  I don't as I use a commercial website which hosts Mailman as a service.  
>
>Also note that the FAQ also later on says:
>
>"- Visit the admin Membership Management...->Membership List pages one by one and copy/paste/edit the results."
>
>Groan - they aren't kidding.  I think that's very telling.  And a very ugly solution when you have hundreds of subscribers as I do AND when the list crashes at the website provider (and of course their backup was corrupted as the script wasn't backing up the Mailman subscriber list).  Murphy's Law you know.
>
>So what I did when the crash happened was to painfully go over all saved subscription requests (fortunately I had saved every one and I recommend all do that) manually filtering out those who later insubscribed and re-entered the rermainders in a text file which I, of course, saved.  I then pasted that into the Admin console Mass Subscription form.  550+ names - took me what seemed like forver to do that.
>
>I'm not the only one who wants an easy way via the Admin console (so you don't have to make the membership list query available to all members (the instructions say the program is anal and won't let you as admin request the list until you do that [and I tried that too and it didn't matter] to generate a list of subscribers in text format that can be saved locally.  It does not have to be e-mailed, it can be a window in the console that can be copied and pasted into a text file.
>
>Please, won't someone provide this feature?  It's basic to list administration.
>
>Bob Landman
>H&L Instruments, LLC
>www.hlinstruments.com
>  
>


From rlandman at hlinstruments.com  Sun Aug 27 18:24:10 2006
From: rlandman at hlinstruments.com (Bob Landman)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:24:10 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request
Message-ID: <C7CE7142-B40C-48FF-9436-7C78205782FA@hlinstruments.com>

Not true Mark.  My list has that option turned off and I checked A,B,C list pages and none of the subcribers had that box checked.

And as for running a script - how can I do that when I don't have command line authority as Mailman for me is hosted by a commercial website?  How do I run such a script (provided I can find someone to write it for me)?

-Bob 

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net] 
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 12:13 PM
To: rlandman at hlinstruments.com;mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request

Bob Landman wrote:

>Peter Green
>Fri, 18 Aug 2006 02:44:54 -0700 wrote....
>
>Apologies for this, but...
>
>I can't get my lists to return a list of those members subscribed to 
>them. I have followed the email commands in the FAQ and get replies 
>saying that my command 'WHO' has been run, but I don't get a list in 
>the way that I am used to with Listerver.
>========
>Peter,
>
>You should not apologize; it's not a dumb question at all.  I know several intelligent IT people who have tried and failed to do this (not me - I'm no IT genius - I'm an EE not a software guru).  I've been managing Mailman lists for several years.  Every experiment I've tried to elicit a list of members has failed.  
>
>I did as instructed and sent in the body of the mail "who password" to mylist-request at mylist.net and what came back was my who request, but no list of members.



The most likely reason for this is that all your list members are 'hidden', in turn because the "General Options->Default options for new members joining this list" setting includes "Conceal the member's address"



>Also note that the FAQ also later on says:
>
>"- Visit the admin Membership Management...->Membership List pages one by one and copy/paste/edit the results."


And the paragraph following that contains links to scripts that automate the process.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan






From msapiro at value.net  Sun Aug 27 18:40:01 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 09:40:01 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman in frames
In-Reply-To: <20060827151941.79714.qmail@web34807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082709400101714d0682ac@msapiro>

Todd Williams wrote:

>    I had looked for FAQs on "frames", not "cookies".  Me bad.
>  That FAQ <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.065.htp> is pretty generic, is there a repository for "fixes"?

The archives of this list
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.018.htp>.

I just added
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.071.htp>.
Take a look and feel free to edit it if you think it needs it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From rlandman at hlinstruments.com  Sun Aug 27 18:41:44 2006
From: rlandman at hlinstruments.com (Bob Landman)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:41:44 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request
Message-ID: <5E1985CB-3FF9-43F6-B0A1-8EF9F185ABA8@hlinstruments.com>

Gary,
 
Thanks for the advice, we'll give it a try.  I've a friend who is an IT manager and he maintains a Mailman list and he's one who wants to solve this issue so I'll have him give it a go and contribute to the RFE if necessary.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: mailman-users-bounces+rlandman=hlinstruments.com at python.org [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+rlandman=hlinstruments.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Gary Hall
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 12:22 PM
To: Mailman Users Group
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request

Hi Bob,

I agree that there should be a way to download the list and asked that question a while back.

Basically this is what they said ro me.

"The alternatives if you only have web access are also described in the FAQ. Both Jim's and my scripts work and have been used on lists with thousands of members. They require you to install Python, and the ClientCookie package if Python is pre 2.4, on your personal computer/workstation, but once that is done, they are simple to use.

The also said that there is already an RFE at:

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1156871&group_id=103&atid=350103.
If that doesn't describe what you want, you can add a comment or a new RFE."

Gary

Bob Landman wrote:

>Peter Green
>Fri, 18 Aug 2006 02:44:54 -0700 wrote....
>
>Apologies for this, but...
>
>I can't get my lists to return a list of those members subscribed to 
>them. I have followed the email commands in the FAQ and get replies 
>saying that my command 'WHO' has been run, but I don't get a list in 
>the way that I am used to with Listerver.
>========
>Peter,
>
>You should not apologize; it's not a dumb question at all.  I know several intelligent IT people who have tried and failed to do this (not me - I'm no IT genius - I'm an EE not a software guru).  I've been managing Mailman lists for several years.  Every experiment I've tried to elicit a list of members has failed.  
>
>I did as instructed and sent in the body of the mail "who password" to mylist-request at mylist.net and what came back was my who request, but no list of members.
>
>In the documentation it says:
>
>"3.62. How do I extract a list of my list's members (subscribers)?
>The preferred way to do this is via the command line tool bin/list_members, but many list owners do not have access to this tool."
>
>I think this is "the" problem.  The writers must have assumed that everyone has access to command line.  I don't as I use a commercial website which hosts Mailman as a service.  
>
>Also note that the FAQ also later on says:
>
>"- Visit the admin Membership Management...->Membership List pages one by one and copy/paste/edit the results."
>
>Groan - they aren't kidding.  I think that's very telling.  And a very ugly solution when you have hundreds of subscribers as I do AND when the list crashes at the website provider (and of course their backup was corrupted as the script wasn't backing up the Mailman subscriber list).  Murphy's Law you know.
>
>So what I did when the crash happened was to painfully go over all saved subscription requests (fortunately I had saved every one and I recommend all do that) manually filtering out those who later insubscribed and re-entered the rermainders in a text file which I, of course, saved.  I then pasted that into the Admin console Mass Subscription form.  550+ names - took me what seemed like forver to do that.
>
>I'm not the only one who wants an easy way via the Admin console (so you don't have to make the membership list query available to all members (the instructions say the program is anal and won't let you as admin request the list until you do that [and I tried that too and it didn't matter] to generate a list of subscribers in text format that can be saved locally.  It does not have to be e-mailed, it can be a window in the console that can be copied and pasted into a text file.
>
>Please, won't someone provide this feature?  It's basic to list administration.
>
>Bob Landman
>H&L Instruments, LLC
>www.hlinstruments.com
>  
>
------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users mailing list
Mailman-Users at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/rlandman%40hlinstruments.com

Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp





From msapiro at value.net  Sun Aug 27 18:49:03 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 09:49:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request
In-Reply-To: <C7CE7142-B40C-48FF-9436-7C78205782FA@hlinstruments.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082709490305314d068416@msapiro>

Bob Landman wrote:

>Not true Mark.  My list has that option turned off and I checked A,B,C list pages and none of the subcribers had that box checked.


OK. Then resend your 'who' request to the listname-request address and
if the response doesn't contain the list and it is not evident why,
post the response here and I'll try to help.

Also, what happens if you try to go to the subscriber list from the
listinfo page or directly at something like
<http://example.com/mailman/roster/listname>


>And as for running a script - how can I do that when I don't have command line authority as Mailman for me is hosted by a commercial website?  How do I run such a script (provided I can find someone to write it for me)?


The scripts are already written and are found at the URLs in the FAQ,
and you don't run them on the Mailman server, you run them on your own
workstation.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Sun Aug 27 19:03:30 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:03:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request
In-Reply-To: <C7CE7142-B40C-48FF-9436-7C78205782FA@hlinstruments.com>
References: <C7CE7142-B40C-48FF-9436-7C78205782FA@hlinstruments.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060827093738.0c02bb10@crimson-dragon.com>

Bob Landman sent the message below at 09:24 AM 8/27/2006:
>Not true Mark.  My list has that option turned off and I checked 
>A,B,C list pages and none of the subcribers had that box checked.
>
>And as for running a script - how can I do that when I don't have 
>command line authority as Mailman for me is hosted by a commercial 
>website?  How do I run such a script (provided I can find someone to 
>write it for me)?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

I can't seem to get it to NOT work except as expected when the 
private_roster setting is set to List Admin Only.

I did several tests in various combinations. I put the who command 
followed by a valid admin, moderator or user password on a single 
line in the request e-mail.

When private_roster is set to Anyone, it works even without a password.

When private_roster is set to List Members, it requires a password 
but any valid member, moderator or administrator password works.

When private_roster is set to Admin Only, moderator or administrator 
passwords work.

Is the command returning anything at all?

Is the address you are sending it to correct? It should be in the 
form listname-request at example.com

Which type of password are you using?

What is private_roster set to? (You find that on the Privacy 
Options->Subscription Rules page).

Without further information, the only thing I can think of that would 
be preventing this is that your provider has decided to disable this 
feature. Have you tried contacting them to ask?

Do you know what version of mailman they are running?

The scripts that were referred to in the FAQ run on your machine, not 
the server. They query the admin web interface and extract the 
information. You do not need CLI access on the host machine, you only 
need to have Python installed on your own machine. Similar scripts 
can be devised in Perl, PHP or any other language that can retrieve a 
web page and parse a text file.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From msapiro at value.net  Sun Aug 27 19:05:51 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:05:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't send messages to list
In-Reply-To: <bdb32ec50608270817g744f72ffna40b4a5c9af27e54@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082710055109846605dc0b@msapiro>

Eric Howland wrote:
>
>I have this problem as well. Mark's response describes my case.  In my
>smtp-failures file I get:
>
>[root at raid src]# tail /var/log/mailman/smtp-failure
>Aug 27 04:20:05 2006 (23140) delivery to duga at wisc.edu failed with
>code -1: (110, 'Connection timed out')
>Aug 27 04:20:05 2006 (23140) delivery to mcvandin at wisc.edu failed with
>code -1: (110, 'Connection timed out')
>Aug 27 04:20:05 2006 (23140) delivery to bagbymc at email.uc.edu failed
>with code -1: (110, 'Connection timed out')
>Aug 27 04:20:05 2006 (23140) delivery to
>rwenzlaff at neuroscience.mcw.edu failed with code -1: (110, 'Connection
>timed out')
>Aug 27 04:20:05 2006 (23140) delivery to nazes at charter.net failed with
>code -1: please run connect() first
>Aug 27 04:20:05 2006 (23140) delivery to diane at thekeyes.org failed
>with code -1: please run connect() first
>Aug 27 04:23:22 2006 (23140) Low level smtp error: (110, 'Connection
>timed out'), msgid:
><mailman.0.1156389782.2645.friends_wingra at danenet.org>
>Aug 27 04:23:33 2006 (23140) delivery to cvasseur at 0instant.com failed
>with code -1: (110, 'Connection timed out')
>Aug 27 04:26:53 2006 (23140) Low level smtp error: (110, 'Connection
>timed out'), msgid: <001c01c6c72e$9f8b7e20$2502a8c0 at VALUED5BD4C299>
>Aug 27 04:26:57 2006 (23140) Low level smtp error: please run
>connect() first, msgid:
><001c01c6c72e$9f8b7e20$2502a8c0 at VALUED5BD4C299>
>
>
>I take it that the Low level smtp errors are comming from my MTA
>(postfix). In my case the problem was intermittent untill about a week
>ago when it became steady.  I have posted to the postfix list but I
>still have no understanding of who should be running connect().


The "please run connect() first" message comes from low down in the
Python library and is really a message to SMTPDirect. It is a result
in this case of SMTPDirect trying to continue to talk on the
connection that timed out.

Is the MTA in the same machine (localhost) as Mailman? If so, we can
rule out a flakey network connection. If not, that may be the issue.

Otherwise, the issue seems to be that Postfix is taking way too long to
handle Mailman's SMTP transactions.


>[root at raid src]# tail /var/log/mailman/smtp
>Aug 27 04:20:05 2006 (23140)
><20060822223840.11493.qmail at web54403.mail.yahoo.com> smtp for 93
>recips, completed in 189.377 seconds
>Aug 27 04:23:33 2006 (23140)
><mailman.0.1156389782.2645.friends_wingra at danenet.org> smtp for 1
>recips, completed in 199.497 seconds
>
>I get lots of entries arround (but not exactly) 189 seconds.  I wonder
>if this is some kind of timeout.


I don't know.


>I also get in my error file:
>
>Aug 27 04:16:54 2006 (23140) Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 111, in _oneloop
>    self._onefile(msg, msgdata)
>  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 167, in _onefile
>    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Queue/OutgoingRunner.py", line 73, in _dispose
>    self._func(mlist, msg, msgdata)
>  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py", line 162, in process
>    conn.quit()
>  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py", line 89, in quit
>    self.__conn.quit()
>  File "/usr/lib/python2.2/smtplib.py", line 702, in quit
>    self.docmd("quit")
>  File "/usr/lib/python2.2/smtplib.py", line 358, in docmd
>    return self.getreply()
>  File "/usr/lib/python2.2/smtplib.py", line 332, in getreply
>    line = self.file.readline()
>IOError: [Errno 104] Connection reset by peer
>
>Aug 27 04:16:55 2006 (23140) SHUNTING:
>1156261104.130233+d719c44d4802cd25a866736a4dcd4b9725db557c
>
>
>Is the reset by peer comming from the MTA or beyond the MTA?


The peer is the MTA. The error comes about because SMTPDirect is trying
to close the connection by sending a QUIT and is not receiving a 221
or any other response; the connection is closed by the MTA before any
reply is received.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Aug 27 18:54:14 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:54:14 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't send messages to list
In-Reply-To: <bdb32ec50608270817g744f72ffna40b4a5c9af27e54@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240518c116d5856db1@192.168.1.102>
	<PC1760200608270704550500fb663d2b@msapiro>
	<bdb32ec50608270817g744f72ffna40b4a5c9af27e54@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240519c1177d97ac8e@[192.168.1.102]>

At 11:17 AM -0400 2006-08-27, Eric Howland wrote:

>  I take it that the Low level smtp errors are comming from my MTA
>  (postfix). In my case the problem was intermittent untill about a week
>  ago when it became steady.  I have posted to the postfix list but I
>  still have no understanding of who should be running connect().

The "connect()" system call is done inside of Mailman, and if it 
can't even get to "connect()", then you're clearly pretty backed up 
-- or the MTA isn't even running at all.

>  I get lots of entries arround (but not exactly) 189 seconds.  I wonder
>  if this is some kind of timeout.

Are you sure you've turned off all the anti-spam and other scanning 
processes within the MTA?

>  Is the reset by peer comming from the MTA or beyond the MTA?

That reset is coming from your MTA.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Aug 27 18:52:02 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:52:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't send messages to list
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200608270704550500fb663d2b@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200608270704550500fb663d2b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <p0624051ac1177da4afa7@[192.168.1.102]>

At 7:04 AM -0700 2006-08-27, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>  The symptoms are those of a hoplessly backlogged 'out' queue in
>  Mailman. If you have access to them, you can look at Mailman's
>  qfiles/out/ directory, which will probably contain a large number of
>  entries waiting to be processed, and Mailman's 'smtp' log.

Problem is, the OP is using a hosted service, and doesn't have 
command-line access to the server.  Moreover, the hosting provider is 
not being responsive, so pretty much the rest of your post is not 
likely to be useful to the OP.

Now, if the OP could get the hosting provider to be responsive, they 
could give them a copy of your message and that (plus the other 
information) should be enough to allow them to solve the problem.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Aug 27 19:07:01 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:07:01 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request
In-Reply-To: <E0F4E60D-AB2D-48D1-8D16-2D2F791DB049@hlinstruments.com>
References: <E0F4E60D-AB2D-48D1-8D16-2D2F791DB049@hlinstruments.com>
Message-ID: <p0624051bc1177ef5fe7f@[192.168.1.102]>

At 11:42 AM -0400 2006-08-27, Bob Landman wrote:

>  I think this is "the" problem.  The writers must have assumed that
>  everyone has access to command line.  I don't as I use a commercial
>  website which hosts Mailman as a service.

Mailman was never intended to be run as a commercial service, or 
underneath a virtual hosting system, etc....  It was always intended 
to be a program that you ran for yourself on your own mailing list 
management server(s), and where you would have full privileged 
command-line access to the machine in question.

We know that this is not how Mailman is being used today, but you're 
talking about making fundamental changes at the core of the system, 
and it's going to take a while to get all these kinds of things 
updated.

We know that the solutions outlined in the FAQ are not as good as 
they should be, but they're the best we can do at the moment.

>  Groan - they aren't kidding.  I think that's very telling.  And a very
>  ugly solution when you have hundreds of subscribers as I do AND when the
>  list crashes at the website provider (and of course their backup was
>  corrupted as the script wasn't backing up the Mailman subscriber list).
>  Murphy's Law you know.

Well, Mailman was not intended to be used as a hosted service.  And 
you should have good backups for everything you do.  If you were 
using Mailman at a hosting provider that was responsive and doing 
their job correctly, then even these issues should not have impacted 
you and your list members.


So, you're paying someone else to use a rented hammer to drive in 
screws, and they apparently don't know how to properly use a hammer. 
Something has gone wrong, and now you're blaming the hammer 
manufacturer for your problems.

Do you see something wrong with this picture?

>  Please, won't someone provide this feature?  It's basic to list
>  administration.

We're working on it, but there's a lot more stuff that has to be 
changed behind the scenes than you realize.  There's some stuff that 
is higher priority.  And since this is an open-source project, people 
work on the stuff they like/want/need, and not necessarily what other 
people like/want/need.

You could help fix that problem by developing and contributing Python 
code to resolve this matter, or by getting someone else to develop 
and contribute that for you.  Otherwise, it's an open-source project, 
and you have to wait for the developers to decide that this is now at 
the top of their heap.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Sun Aug 27 19:08:17 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:08:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request
In-Reply-To: <C7CE7142-B40C-48FF-9436-7C78205782FA@hlinstruments.com>
References: <C7CE7142-B40C-48FF-9436-7C78205782FA@hlinstruments.com>
Message-ID: <p0624051cc11781d4aade@[192.168.1.102]>

At 12:24 PM -0400 2006-08-27, Bob Landman wrote:

>  And as for running a script - how can I do that when I don't have command
>  line authority as Mailman for me is hosted by a commercial website?  How
>  do I run such a script (provided I can find someone to write it for me)?

Most of those scripts you can install and run on your own machine, 
and automate the use of the web interface through them.  The 
instructions for doing that are provided in the FAQ.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From rlandman at hlinstruments.com  Sun Aug 27 19:51:20 2006
From: rlandman at hlinstruments.com (Bob Landman)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 13:51:20 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request
Message-ID: <918E9BA9-7B66-466E-B230-7A7E30D11A23@hlinstruments.com>

Brad,

I was very happy running qmail on my own Linux server until my dear sweet cable provider declared that it didn't like me doing that so I had to move to a commercial webhost.  I run several lists, most are a public service (not related to my business) as I'm a volunteer planning commissioner for my town. The State of NH (where I live) was censoring their Mailman planning list so a bunch of us bolted and started our own planning list.

Mailman is, as you know, very popular.  The fact is that many lists are run by people such as myself who don't know much about software.  We appreciate what others do and we use the software for the good of others.  Is that so bad?  If the intent was to make a useful product for people to use for the fun and education of doing it as a collaborative effort (that is what GNU is all about isn't it?), then I'd expect the writers of such code to cut those of us who use the program just a bit of slack when we offer honest suggestions as to what we would like to see in the product.  Please note we are not saying it's easy or hard, just that it's desireable. I understand the advice of running scripts here and we'll try that.

Mark,

As to what happened when I sent in the request, here's what I know...

The host is running version 2.1.7.cp2

I sent mail to "PlanningNews-NH-request at hlinstruments.net" with who password in the body of the mail (my password that I retrieved via the usual way) after I had set the list to allow all list members to get the subscriber list.  This is what came back (I replaced my password with the word "password"):

The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message.

- Results:
    Usage:
    
    who password [address=<address>]
        See everyone who is on this mailing list.  The roster is limited to
        list members only, and you must supply your membership password to
        retrieve it.  If you're posting from an address other than your
        membership address, specify your membership address with
        `address=<address>' (no brackets around the email address, and no
        quotes!)


- Unprocessed:
    who password 

- Done.

Attached was my original mail to the list.

I'm stumped. I wrote the list from my subscribed address and it replied to me via the bounces address and that's all it said.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Knowles [mailto:brad at stop.mail-abuse.org] 
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:07 PM
To: rlandman at hlinstruments.com;mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request

At 11:42 AM -0400 2006-08-27, Bob Landman wrote:

>  I think this is "the" problem.  The writers must have assumed that  
> everyone has access to command line.  I don't as I use a commercial  
> website which hosts Mailman as a service.

Mailman was never intended to be run as a commercial service, or underneath a virtual hosting system, etc....  It was always intended to be a program that you ran for yourself on your own mailing list management server(s), and where you would have full privileged command-line access to the machine in question.

We know that this is not how Mailman is being used today, but you're talking about making fundamental changes at the core of the system, and it's going to take a while to get all these kinds of things updated.

We know that the solutions outlined in the FAQ are not as good as they should be, but they're the best we can do at the moment.

>  Groan - they aren't kidding.  I think that's very telling.  And a 
> very  ugly solution when you have hundreds of subscribers as I do AND 
> when the  list crashes at the website provider (and of course their 
> backup was  corrupted as the script wasn't backing up the Mailman subscriber list).
>  Murphy's Law you know.

Well, Mailman was not intended to be used as a hosted service.  And you should have good backups for everything you do.  If you were using Mailman at a hosting provider that was responsive and doing their job correctly, then even these issues should not have impacted you and your list members.


So, you're paying someone else to use a rented hammer to drive in screws, and they apparently don't know how to properly use a hammer. 
Something has gone wrong, and now you're blaming the hammer manufacturer for your problems.

Do you see something wrong with this picture?

>  Please, won't someone provide this feature?  It's basic to list  
> administration.

We're working on it, but there's a lot more stuff that has to be changed behind the scenes than you realize.  There's some stuff that is higher priority.  And since this is an open-source project, people work on the stuff they like/want/need, and not necessarily what other people like/want/need.

You could help fix that problem by developing and contributing Python code to resolve this matter, or by getting someone else to develop and contribute that for you.  Otherwise, it's an open-source project, and you have to wait for the developers to decide that this is now at the top of their heap.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.





From rlandman at hlinstruments.com  Sun Aug 27 19:58:23 2006
From: rlandman at hlinstruments.com (Bob Landman)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 13:58:23 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request
Message-ID: <A7833545-EF3E-415B-92CF-0E763CEC0369@hlinstruments.com>

Mark,

I tried the method of going to the subscriber list from the listinfo page or directly at something like <http://example.com/mailman/roster/listname>

and that worked ok. I then cut and pasted the addresses into a text file.  Not as handy as a text file sent to me but better than nothing at all.

Bob 

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net] 
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 12:49 PM
To: rlandman at hlinstruments.com;mailman-users at python.org
Subject: RE: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request

Bob Landman wrote:

>Not true Mark.  My list has that option turned off and I checked A,B,C list pages and none of the subcribers had that box checked.


OK. Then resend your 'who' request to the listname-request address and if the response doesn't contain the list and it is not evident why, post the response here and I'll try to help.

Also, what happens if you try to go to the subscriber list from the listinfo page or directly at something like <http://example.com/mailman/roster/listname>


>And as for running a script - how can I do that when I don't have command line authority as Mailman for me is hosted by a commercial website?  How do I run such a script (provided I can find someone to write it for me)?


The scripts are already written and are found at the URLs in the FAQ, and you don't run them on the Mailman server, you run them on your own workstation.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan






From rlandman at hlinstruments.com  Sun Aug 27 20:24:04 2006
From: rlandman at hlinstruments.com (Bob Landman)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:24:04 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request
Message-ID: <FD75190C-D7EE-4945-9BB6-B9A1C1BA7401@hlinstruments.com>

Mark, Brad,

I finally got it to work!  The password I used was my SUBSCRIBER password - that failed.  What works to get the list is my ADMINISTRATOR password and that works REGARDLESS of if the list is set (Privacy) for Administrator only or List Members inquiry.

All I did was to send a blank mail to the list with -request appended to the list name (nothing in the subject, just who ADMINpassword in the body) and back came the complete list of members including the private ones.  The public info page only returns those who are not set to private.

Thanks to everyone for the help.  May I humbly suggest an edit of the documentation and error message responses would be helpful?

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Landman [mailto:rlandman at hlinstruments.com] 
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:58 PM
To: 'mailman-users at python.org'
Subject: RE: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request

Mark,

I tried the method of going to the subscriber list from the listinfo page or directly at something like <http://example.com/mailman/roster/listname>

and that worked ok. I then cut and pasted the addresses into a text file.  Not as handy as a text file sent to me but better than nothing at all.

Bob 

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net]
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 12:49 PM
To: rlandman at hlinstruments.com;mailman-users at python.org
Subject: RE: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request

Bob Landman wrote:

>Not true Mark.  My list has that option turned off and I checked A,B,C list pages and none of the subcribers had that box checked.


OK. Then resend your 'who' request to the listname-request address and if the response doesn't contain the list and it is not evident why, post the response here and I'll try to help.

Also, what happens if you try to go to the subscriber list from the listinfo page or directly at something like <http://example.com/mailman/roster/listname>


>And as for running a script - how can I do that when I don't have command line authority as Mailman for me is hosted by a commercial website?  How do I run such a script (provided I can find someone to write it for me)?


The scripts are already written and are found at the URLs in the FAQ, and you don't run them on the Mailman server, you run them on your own workstation.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan







From rlandman at hlinstruments.com  Sun Aug 27 20:25:14 2006
From: rlandman at hlinstruments.com (Bob Landman)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:25:14 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request
Message-ID: <AC4A9805-2C6B-4604-8FC4-B76A97A358CD@hlinstruments.com>

You gave me the key Dragon - it was the TYPE of password that made all the difference!

Thank you!

Bob 

-----Original Message-----
From: Dragon [mailto:dragon at crimson-dragon.com] 
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:04 PM
To: rlandman at hlinstruments.com;Mark Sapiro;mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request

Bob Landman sent the message below at 09:24 AM 8/27/2006:
>Not true Mark.  My list has that option turned off and I checked A,B,C 
>list pages and none of the subcribers had that box checked.
>
>And as for running a script - how can I do that when I don't have 
>command line authority as Mailman for me is hosted by a commercial 
>website?  How do I run such a script (provided I can find someone to 
>write it for me)?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

I can't seem to get it to NOT work except as expected when the private_roster setting is set to List Admin Only.

I did several tests in various combinations. I put the who command followed by a valid admin, moderator or user password on a single line in the request e-mail.

When private_roster is set to Anyone, it works even without a password.

When private_roster is set to List Members, it requires a password but any valid member, moderator or administrator password works.

When private_roster is set to Admin Only, moderator or administrator passwords work.

Is the command returning anything at all?

Is the address you are sending it to correct? It should be in the form listname-request at example.com

Which type of password are you using?

What is private_roster set to? (You find that on the Privacy 
Options->Subscription Rules page).

Without further information, the only thing I can think of that would be preventing this is that your provider has decided to disable this feature. Have you tried contacting them to ask?

Do you know what version of mailman they are running?

The scripts that were referred to in the FAQ run on your machine, not the server. They query the admin web interface and extract the information. You do not need CLI access on the host machine, you only need to have Python installed on your own machine. Similar scripts can be devised in Perl, PHP or any other language that can retrieve a web page and parse a text file.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Sun Aug 27 20:48:15 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:48:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request
In-Reply-To: <FD75190C-D7EE-4945-9BB6-B9A1C1BA7401@hlinstruments.com>
References: <FD75190C-D7EE-4945-9BB6-B9A1C1BA7401@hlinstruments.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060827114429.0c02ab48@crimson-dragon.com>

Bob Landman sent the message below at 11:24 AM 8/27/2006:
>Mark, Brad,
>
>I finally got it to work!  The password I used was my SUBSCRIBER 
>password - that failed.  What works to get the list is my 
>ADMINISTRATOR password and that works REGARDLESS of if the list is 
>set (Privacy) for Administrator only or List Members inquiry.
>
>All I did was to send a blank mail to the list with -request 
>appended to the list name (nothing in the subject, just who 
>ADMINpassword in the body) and back came the complete list of 
>members including the private ones.  The public info page only 
>returns those who are not set to private.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

I seem to recall that you said that your list is hosted on a Cpanel 
server. If that is the case, all bets are off because Cpanel makes a 
lot of changes to mailman code and they do not share any of what they do.

The behavior you describe above is most definitely not mailman 
default behavior as built into the mailman source distribution. I 
tested this on my own server where I had installed mailman 2.1.8 from 
the source.

So this should really be directed to Cpanel (if that is indeed the 
type of hosting solution your provider is using).

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From msapiro at value.net  Sun Aug 27 21:18:03 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:18:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request
In-Reply-To: <918E9BA9-7B66-466E-B230-7A7E30D11A23@hlinstruments.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608271218030390b0d7b9c9@msapiro>

Bob Landman wrote:
>
>I sent mail to "PlanningNews-NH-request at hlinstruments.net" with who password in the body of the mail (my password that I retrieved via the usual way) after I had set the list to allow all list members to get the subscriber list.  This is what came back (I replaced my password with the word "password"):
>
>The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message.
>
>- Results:
>    Usage:
>    
>    who password [address=<address>]
>        See everyone who is on this mailing list.  The roster is limited to
>        list members only, and you must supply your membership password to
>        retrieve it.  If you're posting from an address other than your
>        membership address, specify your membership address with
>        `address=<address>' (no brackets around the email address, and no
>        quotes!)
>
>
>- Unprocessed:
>    who password 


I know you got it to work from your subsequent posts by using the admin
password, but I think you also made another change.

First note that mail to -request will process the Subject: if it looks
like a command.

Also note that your "who password" command was unprocessed. Thus I
think the mail you sent with the "who password" command in the body
had a Subject of "who" without the password. So, the Usage result
refers to the command in the Subject:, and the error prevented the
rest from being processed.

Granted, the reply could be more clear as to what it didn't like, but
that's what I think is going on.

The request you sent that worked either didn't have a subject of "who"
or had the whole command with password in the subject.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz  Mon Aug 28 00:53:09 2006
From: Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz (Steven Jones)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:53:09 +1200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error posting to a  mailman list.
Message-ID: <75CF552F30ECFA439D9B3008906F2A37B5F921@STAWINCOMAILCL1.staff.vuw.ac.nz>

Hi,

I seem to be having an ongoing error with mailman, at least one list is
failing to work after working for a period....

The list from the mailman end seems to work as I can subscribe people
and they get an email, but I can no longer send to the list...it
bounces.

=====8><-----

-bash-2.05b$ mail its-agp at lists.vuw.ac.nz
Subject: ww
ww
Cc:
-bash-2.05b$ mail
Mail version 8.1 6/6/93.  Type ? for help.
"/var/spool/mail/jonesst1": 1 message 1 new
>N  1 MAILER-DAEMON at lists.  Mon Aug 28 10:25  74/3194  "Returned mail:
see transcript for details"
&
Message 1:
>From MAILER-DAEMON at vuwunicosmtp002.vuw.ac.nz  Mon Aug 28 10:25:15 2006
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:25:13 +1200
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON at lists.vuw.ac.nz>
To: <jonesst1 at vuwunicosmtp002.vuw.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
        boundary="k7RMPDQ8016090.1156717513/vuwunicosmtp004.vuw.ac.nz"
Subject: Returned mail: see transcript for details
Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
 
This is a MIME-encapsulated message
 
--k7RMPDQ8016090.1156717513/vuwunicosmtp004.vuw.ac.nz
 
The original message was received at Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:25:13 +1200
from vuwunicosmtp002.vuw.ac.nz [130.195.86.26]
 
   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
"|/var/mailman/mail/mailman post its-agp"
    (reason: 1)
    (expanded from: <its-agp at lists.vuw.ac.nz>)
 
   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
post script, list not found: its-agp
554 5.3.0 unknown mailer error 1
 
--k7RMPDQ8016090.1156717513/vuwunicosmtp004.vuw.ac.nz
Content-Type: message/delivery-status
 
Reporting-MTA: dns; vuwunicosmtp004.vuw.ac.nz
Received-From-MTA: DNS; vuwunicosmtp002.vuw.ac.nz
Arrival-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:25:13 +1200
=====8><----

The list seems to be in /etc/aliases,

=======8><-----
its-agp:              "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman post its-agp"
its-agp-admin:        "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman admin its-agp"
its-agp-bounces:      "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman bounces its-agp"
its-agp-confirm:      "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman confirm its-agp"
its-agp-join:         "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman join its-agp"
its-agp-leave:        "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman leave its-agp"
its-agp-owner:        "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman owner its-agp"
its-agp-request:      "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman request its-agp"
its-agp-subscribe:    "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe its-agp"
its-agp-unsubscribe:  "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe its-agp"
=======8><-----

The list exists on the server,

======8><-----
[root at vuwunicosmtp004 its-apg]# ls -l
total 24
-rw-rw----    1 apache   mailman      6149 Aug 28 10:42 config.pck
-rw-rw----    1 apache   mailman      6149 Aug 28 10:42 config.pck.last
-rw-rw----    1 mailman  mailman       128 Aug 14 09:34 pending.pck
-rw-rw-r--    1 apache   mailman        20 Aug 28 10:21 request.pck
[root at vuwunicosmtp004 its-apg]# pwd
/var/mailman/lists/its-apg
[root at vuwunicosmtp004 its-apg]#
======8><-----

Mailman's error log,

======8><---
[root at vuwunicosmtp004 mailman]# tail error
Aug 28 10:25:13 2006 post(16091): post script, list not found: its-agp
Aug 28 10:27:50 2006 post(16231): post script, list not found: its-agp
Aug 28 10:30:06 2006 post(16744): post script, list not found: its-agp
======8><----

So I am a bit at a loss....suggests some sort of link within or to
mailman is broken.....

How to fix please?

Regards

Steven Jones
ITS Linux/Unix/San System Administrator
Technology Integration Team
Victoria University of Wellington
Phone: +64 4 463 6272 Mobile: +64 27 563 6272



From msapiro at value.net  Mon Aug 28 02:28:39 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 17:28:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error posting to a  mailman list.
In-Reply-To: <75CF552F30ECFA439D9B3008906F2A37B5F921@STAWINCOMAILCL1.staff.vuw.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608271728390625e9139f98@msapiro>

Steven Jones wrote:
>
>I seem to be having an ongoing error with mailman, at least one list is
>failing to work after working for a period....
>
>The list from the mailman end seems to work as I can subscribe people
>and they get an email, but I can no longer send to the list...it
>bounces.
<snip>
>   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
>"|/var/mailman/mail/mailman post its-agp"
>    (reason: 1)
>    (expanded from: <its-agp at lists.vuw.ac.nz>)
> 
>   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
>post script, list not found: its-agp
>554 5.3.0 unknown mailer error 1


The alias is expanded and invoking the wrapper which is invoking the
'post' script which says the list isn't found.


>The list seems to be in /etc/aliases,
>
>=======8><-----
>its-agp:              "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman post its-agp"
>its-agp-admin:        "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman admin its-agp"
>its-agp-bounces:      "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman bounces its-agp"
>its-agp-confirm:      "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman confirm its-agp"
>its-agp-join:         "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman join its-agp"
>its-agp-leave:        "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman leave its-agp"
>its-agp-owner:        "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman owner its-agp"
>its-agp-request:      "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman request its-agp"
>its-agp-subscribe:    "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe its-agp"
>its-agp-unsubscribe:  "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe its-agp"
>=======8><-----



Two questions: Do other lists that work invoke the same wrapper
(/var/mailman/mail/mailman)?, and what do you see if you look at the
above with something that shows 'transparent' characters?


<snip>
>[root at vuwunicosmtp004 mailman]# tail error
>Aug 28 10:25:13 2006 post(16091): post script, list not found: its-agp
>Aug 28 10:27:50 2006 post(16231): post script, list not found: its-agp
>Aug 28 10:30:06 2006 post(16744): post script, list not found: its-agp



Here again, the 'post' script can't find the list. I'm grasping, but
either the wrapper invokes a post script from a different installation
than /var/mailman (not likely), or there is a transparent character in
the list name in the pipe in the alias. I can't off hand think what
else it might be.


>So I am a bit at a loss....suggests some sort of link within or to
>mailman is broken.....


What happens if you manually give the command

python /var/mailman/scripts/post its-agp < /dev/null

If working properly, there should be no error from the command and no
entry in the error log, but there will be messages in the post, smtp
and probably smtp-failure logs.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz  Mon Aug 28 04:12:25 2006
From: Steven.Jones at vuw.ac.nz (Steven Jones)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:12:25 +1200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Error posting to a  mailman list.
Message-ID: <75CF552F30ECFA439D9B3008906F2A37B5F95F@STAWINCOMAILCL1.staff.vuw.ac.nz>

Hi,

tail'd | oc but could not see anything, deleted the 10 lines and re-did
them, then ran newaliases, now works....so, there must have been a wee
corruption in there somewhere....

regards

Steven Jones
ITS Linux/Unix/San System Administrator
Technology Integration Team
Victoria University of Wellington
Phone: +64 4 463 6272 Mobile: +64 27 563 6272

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:msapiro at value.net] 
Sent: Monday, 28 August 2006 12:29 p.m.
To: Steven Jones; mailman-users at python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Error posting to a mailman list.

Steven Jones wrote:
>
>I seem to be having an ongoing error with mailman, at least one list is
>failing to work after working for a period....
>
>The list from the mailman end seems to work as I can subscribe people
>and they get an email, but I can no longer send to the list...it
>bounces.
<snip>
>   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
>"|/var/mailman/mail/mailman post its-agp"
>    (reason: 1)
>    (expanded from: <its-agp at lists.vuw.ac.nz>)
> 
>   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
>post script, list not found: its-agp
>554 5.3.0 unknown mailer error 1


The alias is expanded and invoking the wrapper which is invoking the
'post' script which says the list isn't found.


>The list seems to be in /etc/aliases,
>
>=======8><-----
>its-agp:              "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman post its-agp"
>its-agp-admin:        "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman admin its-agp"
>its-agp-bounces:      "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman bounces its-agp"
>its-agp-confirm:      "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman confirm its-agp"
>its-agp-join:         "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman join its-agp"
>its-agp-leave:        "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman leave its-agp"
>its-agp-owner:        "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman owner its-agp"
>its-agp-request:      "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman request its-agp"
>its-agp-subscribe:    "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman subscribe its-agp"
>its-agp-unsubscribe:  "|/var/mailman/mail/mailman unsubscribe its-agp"
>=======8><-----



Two questions: Do other lists that work invoke the same wrapper
(/var/mailman/mail/mailman)?, and what do you see if you look at the
above with something that shows 'transparent' characters?


<snip>
>[root at vuwunicosmtp004 mailman]# tail error
>Aug 28 10:25:13 2006 post(16091): post script, list not found: its-agp
>Aug 28 10:27:50 2006 post(16231): post script, list not found: its-agp
>Aug 28 10:30:06 2006 post(16744): post script, list not found: its-agp



Here again, the 'post' script can't find the list. I'm grasping, but
either the wrapper invokes a post script from a different installation
than /var/mailman (not likely), or there is a transparent character in
the list name in the pipe in the alias. I can't off hand think what
else it might be.


>So I am a bit at a loss....suggests some sort of link within or to
>mailman is broken.....


What happens if you manually give the command

python /var/mailman/scripts/post its-agp < /dev/null

If working properly, there should be no error from the command and no
entry in the error log, but there will be messages in the post, smtp
and probably smtp-failure logs.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From j.thompson at e-places.net  Mon Aug 28 04:07:17 2006
From: j.thompson at e-places.net (JT Thompson)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 21:07:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing the 'reply-to'
Message-ID: <006101c6ca46$afdbfff0$0f93ffd0$@thompson@e-places.net>

I've been using other mailing list software for a number of years (major
domo). I am now moving all my clients to Plesk servers and they use Mailman.
So I need to configure the lists.

 

I had changed major domo so that anytime you sent to the list, when the
email came in, if you hit 'reply' it would send back to the list, and show
'on behalf of username' so you'd know who sent it.

 

Surely this must be possible in mailman but I couldn't find any real info on
reply_to in the config for the test list I set up.


Does anyone know how to do this?

 

 

-JT

 



From david at midrange.com  Mon Aug 28 04:30:28 2006
From: david at midrange.com (David Gibbs)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 21:30:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing the 'reply-to'
In-Reply-To: <006101c6ca46$afdbfff0$0f93ffd0$@thompson@e-places.net>
References: <006101c6ca46$afdbfff0$0f93ffd0$@thompson@e-places.net>
Message-ID: <44F25544.3060005@midrange.com>

JT Thompson wrote:
> I had changed major domo so that anytime you sent to the list, when 
> the email came in, if you hit 'reply' it would send back to the list,
>  and show 'on behalf of username' so you'd know who sent it. Surely 
> this must be possible in mailman but I couldn't find any real info on
>  reply_to in the config for the test list I set up.

Check out the reply_goes_to_list, first_strip_reply_to, and
reply_to_address options on the general settings page.

david



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Aug 28 06:13:31 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:13:31 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request
In-Reply-To: <FD75190C-D7EE-4945-9BB6-B9A1C1BA7401@hlinstruments.com>
References: <FD75190C-D7EE-4945-9BB6-B9A1C1BA7401@hlinstruments.com>
Message-ID: <p06240521c1181d83006e@[192.168.1.102]>

At 2:24 PM -0400 2006-08-27, Bob Landman wrote:

>  Thanks to everyone for the help.  May I humbly suggest an edit of the
>  documentation and error message responses would be helpful?

We'll try to remember to clarify the documentation and the error 
message, but it would help us remember to do this if you filed an RFE 
to this effect.

With regards to the FAQ Wizard, that's a community supported effort 
and all the information you need to create a new entry is found 
within the FAQ Wizard itself, and you should feel free to go ahead 
and put in some clarifications there yourself.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Aug 28 06:10:02 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:10:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Stupid newbie request
In-Reply-To: <918E9BA9-7B66-466E-B230-7A7E30D11A23@hlinstruments.com>
References: <918E9BA9-7B66-466E-B230-7A7E30D11A23@hlinstruments.com>
Message-ID: <p06240520c1181c8bc630@[192.168.1.102]>

At 1:51 PM -0400 2006-08-27, Bob Landman wrote:

>        If the intent was to make a useful product for people to use for the
>  fun and education of doing it as a collaborative effort (that is what GNU
>  is all about isn't it?), then I'd expect the writers of such code to cut
>  those of us who use the program just a bit of slack when we offer honest
>  suggestions as to what we would like to see in the product.

We do try to cut the users some slack when they are using our tools 
in ways that are available to them and make sense to them, even if 
they were not originally designed to work that way, but then we would 
appreciate your cutting us some slack in return.  That's all I'm 
asking for.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Aug 28 06:14:42 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:14:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Changing the 'reply-to'
In-Reply-To: <006101c6ca46$afdbfff0$0f93ffd0$@thompson@e-places.net>
References: <006101c6ca46$afdbfff0$0f93ffd0$@thompson@e-places.net>
Message-ID: <p06240522c1181dfa1c46@[192.168.1.102]>

At 9:07 PM -0500 2006-08-27, JT Thompson wrote:

>  Surely this must be possible in mailman but I couldn't find any real info on
>  reply_to in the config for the test list I set up.

Yes, you can do this.  However, we strongly recommend that you do not 
do so -- see 
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.048.htp> 
for details.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From louie at louie.net  Mon Aug 28 07:50:47 2006
From: louie at louie.net (Louis Lee)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 22:50:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] postmap virtual-mailman (status: 1,
	Operation not permitted)
Message-ID: <5730780b404e556d10382fb5fbe4cfc1@louie.net>

After installing Mailman 2.1.8 and configuring Apache and Postfix, I 
had the following error message when creating a new list from the web 
interface.  Nothing online seemed to provide the right answer.  But 
since I've managed to figure what exactly was the problem, I thought 
I'd share with the community.

RuntimeError: command failed: /usr/sbin/postmap 
/usr/local/mailman/data/virtual-mailman (status: 1, Operation not 
permitted)

I followed the online installation instructions to create the new 
"mailman" mailing list via command line:

http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-install/node40.html

% bin/newlist mailman

But I think when I ran that newlist command as the mailman user, it 
generated the virtual-mailman.db file in the data directory such that 
it was owned by the mailman user.  Since my data directory has 
drwxrwsr-x permissions, the www user could not recreate the 
virtual-mailman.db file when I made a new list via the web interface.

I corrected the problem by making the virtual-mailman.db file be owned 
by the www user:

chown www virtual-mailman.db

I hope this hint helps some poor soul out there.  Maybe this can be 
noted in the postfix section of the installation manual.

Louie



From semoore at maine.rr.com  Mon Aug 28 14:07:01 2006
From: semoore at maine.rr.com (Steve Moore)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 08:07:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] looking for installer/trainer
Message-ID: <C8A43F4A-81F5-4CEE-8262-23B9D6F7975C@maine.rr.com>

One of my clients near Portland, Maine wants to migrate an existing  
Liststar setup to Mailman on OS X Server. Are there any consultants  
willing to set this up and train me to run it?
TIA

--
Steve Moore
Cumberland, Maine


From it-support at asta.tu-darmstadt.de  Mon Aug 28 15:05:39 2006
From: it-support at asta.tu-darmstadt.de (IT-Support @ AStA TU Darmstadt)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:05:39 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Lists not shown on "listinfo"-site
In-Reply-To: <PC1740200607230903100625a1b81efb@msapiro>
References: <PC1740200607230903100625a1b81efb@msapiro>
Message-ID: <44F2EA23.9040806@asta.tu-darmstadt.de>

Mark Sapiro schrieb:
> IT-Support @ AStA TU Darmstadt wrote:
> 
>> Patrick Bogen schrieb:
>>> Have you tried following FAQ 4.62
>>> <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.062.htp>
>>> ?
>> I could not figure it out yet - I still have to study the FAQ article
>> you told me - I'll give you feedback as soon as possible!
> 
> 
> I have edited the above FAQ article to try to make it more clear. If
> you've looked at the prior version, you might find the current version
> more helpful.
> 

Hello Mark, hello Patrick,

I read the article again and found the solution here:

http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.029.htp

I had to do a "withlist -l -a -r fix_url" cause obviously after fixing
apache, configuration of mailman was touched (by me?).
Now the lists appear again and I also tweaked it to ssl-support :-)

Thanks for your help! Very good support on this list!!!

Best wishes,
Ivan







From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Mon Aug 28 17:08:59 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:08:59 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] looking for installer/trainer
In-Reply-To: <C8A43F4A-81F5-4CEE-8262-23B9D6F7975C@maine.rr.com>
References: <C8A43F4A-81F5-4CEE-8262-23B9D6F7975C@maine.rr.com>
Message-ID: <p06240527c118b70ffd06@[192.168.1.102]>

At 8:07 AM -0400 2006-08-28, Steve Moore wrote:

>  One of my clients near Portland, Maine wants to migrate an existing
>  Liststar setup to Mailman on OS X Server. Are there any consultants
>  willing to set this up and train me to run it?

Before you go too far down this route, you might want to take a look 
at 
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.021.htp>.

At the very least, this may influence your choice of versions of 
Mailman, and whether you use the hacked-up Apple version (which we 
cannot provide much support for, since they didn't share their code 
modifications with us), or our version.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From heinrich at esono.de  Mon Aug 28 14:55:04 2006
From: heinrich at esono.de (Heinrich, Maximilian)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:55:04 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem: qmail says: Failed to exec mailman
	wrapper: unable to determine caller's group name
Message-ID: <D54C98F43BF2CC4EB000C3B2DEBC47880112C7BB@mapibe12.exchange.xchg>

Hi There!

After installing a Suse9.3, mailman and importing the old mailing lists
we can't use it anymore. We also tried the script that sets proper
rights to all directories and so on. Nothing helps and google doesn't
know anything about this weird message. At least to me it doesn't make
sense:

Qmail says (after being not able to do anything useful with a mail sent
to the mailing list) :

> Failed to exec mailman wrapper: unable to determine caller's group
name I'm not going to try again; 
> this message has been in the queue too long.

This is was ps says: (looks ok to me)

mailman  24155     1  0 09:11 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python
./mailmanctl start
mailman  24156 24155  0 09:11 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python
/usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=ArchRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  24157 24155  0 09:11 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python
/usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=BounceRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  24158 24155  0 09:11 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python
/usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=CommandRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  24159 24155  0 09:11 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python
/usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=IncomingRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  24160 24155  0 09:11 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python
/usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=NewsRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  24161 24155  0 09:11 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python
/usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  24162 24155  0 09:11 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python
/usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=VirginRunner:0:1 -s
mailman  24163 24155  0 09:11 ?        00:00:00 /usr/bin/python
/usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=RetryRunner:0:1 -s

Any Ideas?

Thanks for any help in advance - regards - Maxi


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Mon Aug 28 18:53:37 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:53:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem: qmail says: Failed to exec mailman
	wrapper: unable to determine caller's group name
In-Reply-To: <D54C98F43BF2CC4EB000C3B2DEBC47880112C7BB@mapibe12.exchange.xchg>
References: <D54C98F43BF2CC4EB000C3B2DEBC47880112C7BB@mapibe12.exchange.xchg>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00608280953v30c649d1q1647e585b7d4ef4c@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/28/06, Heinrich, Maximilian <heinrich at esono.de> wrote:
> Failed to exec mailman wrapper: unable to determine caller's group
> name I'm not going to try again;
> this message has been in the queue too long.

This is a qmail problem. Or, rather, a problem with the way qmail is
configured to handle mail destined for mailman. Someone else here
might have some insight, but you should probably ask on a qmail list
instead.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From msapiro at value.net  Mon Aug 28 19:47:51 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:47:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Problem: qmail says: Failed to exec
	mailmanwrapper: unable to determine caller's group name
In-Reply-To: <D54C98F43BF2CC4EB000C3B2DEBC47880112C7BB@mapibe12.exchange.xchg>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082810475103126ef768cb@msapiro>

Heinrich, Maximilian wrote:
>
>Qmail says (after being not able to do anything useful with a mail sent
>to the mailing list) :
>
>> Failed to exec mailman wrapper: unable to determine caller's group
>name I'm not going to try again; 
>> this message has been in the queue too long.


I'm not sure exactly what's happening, but "Failed to exec mailman
wrapper: unable to determine caller's group name" seems to be an issue
with the group that Qmail is using to invoke the mail wrapper.

The wrapper doesn't issue that exact message (at least not in the
source distribution), but it can issue a message like

  Failure to find group name <group>.  Try adding this group
  to your system, or re-run configure, providing an
  existing group name with the command line option --with-mail-gid.

or

  Failure to find group name for GID <gid1>.  Mailman
  expected the mail wrapper to be executed as group
  "<group>", but the system's mail server executed the
  wrapper as GID <gid2> for which the name could not be
  found.  Try adding GID <gid2> to your system as "<group>",
  or tweak your mail server to run the wrapper as group
  "<group>.

If this is the issue, the most likely cause is Qmail is invoking the
wrapper with a group ID that isn't registered on your system.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From bob at tania.servebbs.org  Tue Aug 29 03:00:33 2006
From: bob at tania.servebbs.org (Bob)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:00:33 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving existing list to new server/domain
Message-ID: <200608282100.35522.bob@tania.servebbs.org>

Hi:

I am moving a LARGE Version 2.1.5 (linux) list to a 2.1.8 (FreeBsd)  server on 
a different domain.

I created the list on the new server and basically just cut/pasted most 
attribute fields from the existing to the new.

Two things I could not do this way, and they are:

1)  replicate the user-base (about 1000)
2)  replicate the "Non-member filters" (about 5000)

I initially tried to simply copy the config.pck file, configure /etc/hosts to 
point the old server-name to the new one, and was able to see all the users, 
etc... made a couple of needed changes, and reset /etc/hosts. Then Mailman 
crashed, spawning a bazillion processes, and "too many open files" forced a 
reboot!

So obviously that doesn't work :-( 

I can dump the database OK, and see what I need, but how can I get this data 
back into the new list?
 
TIA
Bob


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug 29 05:39:00 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:39:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Moving existing list to new server/domain
In-Reply-To: <200608282100.35522.bob@tania.servebbs.org>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608282039000703bd7a203f@msapiro>

Bob wrote:
>
>I am moving a LARGE Version 2.1.5 (linux) list to a 2.1.8 (FreeBsd)  server on 
>a different domain.


<snip>


>I initially tried to simply copy the config.pck file, configure /etc/hosts to 
>point the old server-name to the new one, and was able to see all the users, 
>etc... made a couple of needed changes, and reset /etc/hosts. Then Mailman 
>crashed, spawning a bazillion processes, and "too many open files" forced a 
>reboot!
>
>So obviously that doesn't work :-( 


I don't know why?  You should be able to just copy the old config.pck
to the new server and run

  bin/withlist -l -r fix_url listname

to fix the domain names in the list. You don't normally need to do
anything in /etc/hosts.

I don't know why Mailman crashed. What were the bazillion processes?
Normally, only mailmanctl spawns processes and those are only the
queue runners.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From eric.howland at gmail.com  Tue Aug 29 06:44:25 2006
From: eric.howland at gmail.com (Eric Howland)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:44:25 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't send messages to list
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006082710055109846605dc0b@msapiro>
References: <bdb32ec50608270817g744f72ffna40b4a5c9af27e54@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC17602006082710055109846605dc0b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <bdb32ec50608282144l52eb50d2i86f9228c2b8ae970@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/27/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> Eric Howland wrote:
> >
> >I have this problem as well. Mark's response describes my case.  In my
> >smtp-failures file I get:
> >
> >[root at raid src]# tail /var/log/mailman/smtp-failure
> >Aug 27 04:20:05 2006 (23140) delivery to duga at wisc.edu failed with
> >code -1: (110, 'Connection timed out')
. . .
> >Aug 27 04:26:57 2006 (23140) Low level smtp error: please run
> >connect() first, msgid:
> ><001c01c6c72e$9f8b7e20$2502a8c0 at VALUED5BD4C299>
> >
> >
> >I take it that the Low level smtp errors are comming from my MTA
> >(postfix). In my case the problem was intermittent untill about a week
> >ago when it became steady.  I have posted to the postfix list but I
> >still have no understanding of who should be running connect().
>
>
> The "please run connect() first" message comes from low down in the
> Python library and is really a message to SMTPDirect. It is a result
> in this case of SMTPDirect trying to continue to talk on the
> connection that timed out.

Thank you for this clarification.

> Is the MTA in the same machine (localhost) as Mailman? If so, we can
> rule out a flakey network connection. If not, that may be the issue.
>
Same machine.

> Otherwise, the issue seems to be that Postfix is taking way too long to
> handle Mailman's SMTP transactions.
>
For sure YES. The performance tuning documentation looks at how to
move from .2 seconds per table to .002 second. I have 3+
hours/message.

>

> >Is the reset by peer comming from the MTA or beyond the MTA?
>
>
> The peer is the MTA. The error comes about because SMTPDirect is trying
> to close the connection by sending a QUIT and is not receiving a 221
> or any other response; the connection is closed by the MTA before any
> reply is received.
>

I have used both DELIVERY_MODULE = 'Sendmail'
and
DELIVERY_MODULE = 'SMTPDirect'

This just shifts the directory in which the outgoing email is stuck.
SMTPDirect leaves them in the out directory
Sendmail leaves them in the shunt directory

Should this tell me anything about what is wrong with postfix?


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug 29 07:16:05 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:16:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't send messages to list
In-Reply-To: <bdb32ec50608282144l52eb50d2i86f9228c2b8ae970@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608282216050093711ebe62@msapiro>

Eric Howland wrote:
>
>I have used both DELIVERY_MODULE = 'Sendmail'
>and
>DELIVERY_MODULE = 'SMTPDirect'
>
>This just shifts the directory in which the outgoing email is stuck.
>SMTPDirect leaves them in the out directory
>Sendmail leaves them in the shunt directory
>
>Should this tell me anything about what is wrong with postfix?


Not directly, but if messages are shunted when using Sendmail, there
should be 'error' log entries that might tell you something. There
might also be information in the 'post' log. You would probably learn
more however by just trying to use the 'sendmail' command to send a
message without involving Mailman at all.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From jetta.view at gmx.de  Tue Aug 29 14:01:01 2006
From: jetta.view at gmx.de (Martin Held)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:01:01 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] remove list from overview
Message-ID: <20060829120108.3096B1E4008@bag.python.org>

hi,

i have a few mailing lists.

i saw, that all lists are listet here:

e.g. for python.org lists
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo

so is it possible to remove a mailinglist
from this overview?


best regards

emmi





From lmeier at ajc.com  Tue Aug 29 13:38:07 2006
From: lmeier at ajc.com (Layne Meier)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:38:07 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help with mailman-bounces
Message-ID: <BA1091FA-CB21-4697-AB17-DEA0AE56F160@ajc.com>

One of our lists held an emergency posting because:

Reason:  Too many recipients to the message


How or where is this defined so I can remove this restriction?

Thank you,
Layne Meier
Cox Newspapers




From lmeier at ajc.com  Tue Aug 29 14:22:15 2006
From: lmeier at ajc.com (Layne Meier)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:22:15 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Help with mailman-bounces
In-Reply-To: <44F42F8B.6010001@lists.unibe.ch>
References: <BA1091FA-CB21-4697-AB17-DEA0AE56F160@ajc.com>
	<44F42F8B.6010001@lists.unibe.ch>
Message-ID: <7071302A-57D9-451B-B22B-E8705536CD8F@ajc.com>

Thank you.


On Aug 29, 2006, at 8:14 AM, Peter M Von B?ren wrote:

Layne Meier wrote:

> One of our lists held an emergency posting because:
>
> Reason:  Too many recipients to the message
>
>
> How or where is this defined so I can remove this restriction?
>
it's in the Privacy Options -> Recipient filters.
Change the "Ceiling on acceptable number of recipients for a posting"
to nil (0), and you're there.

> Thank you,
> Layne Meier
> Cox Newspapers
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list
> Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users% 
> 40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/ 
> vonbueren%40id.unibe.ch
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py? 
> req=show&amp;file=faq01.027.htp
>

regards
________________________________________________________________________ 
_

Peter M Von Bueren
ListMaster ID University Bern
________________________________________________________________________ 
_




From it-support at asta.tu-darmstadt.de  Tue Aug 29 14:43:20 2006
From: it-support at asta.tu-darmstadt.de (IT-Support @ AStA TU Darmstadt)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:43:20 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] remove list from overview
In-Reply-To: <20060829120108.3096B1E4008@bag.python.org>
References: <20060829120108.3096B1E4008@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <44F43668.4050101@asta.tu-darmstadt.de>

Martin Held schrieb:
> hi,
> 
> i have a few mailing lists.
> 
> i saw, that all lists are listet here:
> 
> e.g. for python.org lists
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo
> 
> so is it possible to remove a mailinglist
> from this overview?
> 
> 
> best regards
> 
> emmi

Hello Emmi,

do you want to remove the list completely or just from the listinfo-page?

The remove the list completely (with all members etc.) you type

rmlist <listname> on the console.


I don't know if it is possible to "hide" a list on the listinfo-site -
someone else here might know ;-)

Best wishes,
Ivan


From jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu  Tue Aug 29 15:25:41 2006
From: jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu (Jewel)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:25:41 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail.log has stopped logging
Message-ID: <44F44055.5090502@washburn.edu>

I can't figure out why my mail.log file has stopped logging.  My other 
logs continue to grow.  Any direction on how I can  begin to 
troubleshoot this?

J

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Tue Aug 29 15:47:42 2006
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:47:42 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail.log has stopped logging
In-Reply-To: <44F44055.5090502@washburn.edu>
References: <44F44055.5090502@washburn.edu>
Message-ID: <20060829134742.GO6741@charite.de>

* Jewel <jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu>:

> I can't figure out why my mail.log file has stopped logging.  My other 
> logs continue to grow.  Any direction on how I can  begin to 
> troubleshoot this?

* make sure syslogd is running
* Which MTA are you using?

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt (i.A. des IT-Zentrums)         Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de
Charite - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin            Tel.  +49 (0)30-450 570-155
Gemeinsame Einrichtung von FU- und HU-Berlin    Fax.  +49 (0)30-450 570-962
IT-Zentrum Standort CBF                 send no mail to spamtrap at charite.de


From msapiro at value.net  Tue Aug 29 17:15:55 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:15:55 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] remove list from overview
In-Reply-To: <20060829120108.3096B1E4008@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <PC17602006082908155502968c6b48bf@msapiro>

Martin Held wrote:
>
>so is it possible to remove a mailinglist
>from this overview?


Admin interface->Privacy options...->Subscription rules->advertised = No

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Tue Aug 29 17:16:38 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:16:38 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] mail.log has stopped logging
In-Reply-To: <20060829134742.GO6741@charite.de>
References: <44F44055.5090502@washburn.edu> <20060829134742.GO6741@charite.de>
Message-ID: <p06240531c11a0a7ca729@[192.168.1.102]>

At 3:47 PM +0200 2006-08-29, Ralf Hildebrandt quoted 
<jewel.brueggeman-makda at washburn.edu>:

>>  I can't figure out why my mail.log file has stopped logging.  My other
>>  logs continue to grow.  Any direction on how I can  begin to
>>  troubleshoot this?
>
>  * make sure syslogd is running
>  * Which MTA are you using?

There's one other factor -- check to make sure that you haven't hit 
the maximum file size limitations of your operating system.

For example, many OSes can't handle files larger than 2GB, and if 
you're running a busy mail server or you haven't rotated the log file 
in a long time, it might be easy to exceed this limit.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Wed Aug 30 06:19:20 2006
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 23:19:20 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Just archives
Message-ID: <34a783b20608292119l4adeb132y77ad1f534e5c80dd@mail.gmail.com>

I've got a mailing list running successfully in Mailman, formerly on
my own server, now being hosted at Dreamhost.  A peculiarity of their
implementation is that I don't have access to the archive files or any
of the other mailman-specific directories; or apparently to the
executables either (I haven't looked really hard, or asked; it's not
key to my question).

I've also got old archives of the mailing list, both old ezmlm
archives, and from a more recent incarnation a large mbox file
collected by a user (and a good thing, since I managed to lose my copy
in a disk meltdown).

What I think I want to do is leave the new/current mailing list, and
its archives, alone, and put up the old archives in my web space.  (A
more aggressive approach would be to try to attach my old archives to
the beginning of the new/current archive, so everything would be in
one place.  That would require a lot of reliance on Dreamhost tech
support, since I don't have access to those files/directories, and
they might not even be willing to do it.)

So, what executables and configuration settings are key to this?  I
need to run "arch", it looks like, and have a mailing list configured
that will define where it puts the resulting HTML files.  Maybe also
stuff to make the page templates match the rest of the website (I did
that for the ezmlm-cgi version).   And I only have to do this once
(just to convert the old archives, static, no more messages).

Might I be better off approaching this via pipermail?  I'm not really
clear, but I think that's a library for message archive handling,
which mailman uses for its archives?  So it might have all the parts
of what I need, and maybe give me more freedom to write page layouts?
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From spyropolymiadis at kromestudios.com  Wed Aug 30 06:37:31 2006
From: spyropolymiadis at kromestudios.com (Spyro Polymiadis)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:07:31 +0930
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam Filters deleted?
Message-ID: <44F5160B.3010806@kromestudios.com>

Hi All,

Ive set my header filters on all my lists (some 40-50 lists) to filter 
spam by setting X-Spam-Flag: YES and action it to discard. Now ive 
noticed that for some reason these "rules' have just disappeared, and 
now the spam is comming through to some of the lists... The list is a 
public list - ie needs to accept mail from genuine external addresses, 
but also discard mail that gets marked as spam from spamassassin...

I dont know why, but yeah, the filter rules have just disappeared... Has 
anyone else had this happen to them? is there a way to make these 
persistent?

Cheers
Spyro



This message and its attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information. This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you may not copy or deliver this message or its attachments to anyone. Rather, you should permanently delete this message and its attachments and kindly notify the sender by reply e-mail. Any content of this message and its attachments, which does not relate to the official business of the sending company must be taken not to have been sent or endorsed by the sending company or any of its related entities. No warranty is made that the e-mail or attachment(s) are free from computer virus or other defect.



From spyropolymiadis at kromestudios.com  Wed Aug 30 06:46:15 2006
From: spyropolymiadis at kromestudios.com (Spyro Polymiadis)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:16:15 +0930
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam Filters deleted?
In-Reply-To: <44F5160B.3010806@kromestudios.com>
References: <44F5160B.3010806@kromestudios.com>
Message-ID: <44F51817.4050308@kromestudios.com>

Spyro Polymiadis wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Ive set my header filters on all my lists (some 40-50 lists) to filter 
> spam by setting X-Spam-Flag: YES and action it to discard. Now ive 
> noticed that for some reason these "rules' have just disappeared, and 
> now the spam is comming through to some of the lists... The list is a 
> public list - ie needs to accept mail from genuine external addresses, 
> but also discard mail that gets marked as spam from spamassassin...
>
> I dont know why, but yeah, the filter rules have just disappeared... Has 
> anyone else had this happen to them? is there a way to make these 
> persistent?
>
> Cheers
> Spyro

maybe the answer to my own question  
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1020102&group_id=103&atid=300103
Can someone confirm if this is the correct fix for my problem?

Cheers
Spyro



This message and its attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information. This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you may not copy or deliver this message or its attachments to anyone. Rather, you should permanently delete this message and its attachments and kindly notify the sender by reply e-mail. Any content of this message and its attachments, which does not relate to the official business of the sending company must be taken not to have been sent or endorsed by the sending company or any of its related entities. No warranty is made that the e-mail or attachment(s) are free from computer virus or other defect.



From lists at norrbring.se  Wed Aug 30 09:32:01 2006
From: lists at norrbring.se (Anders Norrbring)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:32:01 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and Postfix on different hosts?
Message-ID: <44F53EF1.1090802@norrbring.se>

Simple question,
would it be possible to run mailman on one host, and the Postfix MTA on 
another host?

The reason is that I'm configuring a new in/outgoing server that 
eventually should take over the "old" one, the old should keep the web 
server functionality, so I'd like to split things up.

If it can be done, any hints on how?
-- 

Anders Norrbring
Norrbring Consulting


From eric.howland at gmail.com  Wed Aug 30 14:04:57 2006
From: eric.howland at gmail.com (Eric Howland)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 07:04:57 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't send messages to list
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200608282216050093711ebe62@msapiro>
References: <bdb32ec50608282144l52eb50d2i86f9228c2b8ae970@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1760200608282216050093711ebe62@msapiro>
Message-ID: <bdb32ec50608300504n1dc9889ara36afb241a864d0e@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/29/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> Eric Howland wrote:
> >
> >I have used both DELIVERY_MODULE = 'Sendmail'
> >and
> >DELIVERY_MODULE = 'SMTPDirect'
> >
> >This just shifts the directory in which the outgoing email is stuck.
> >SMTPDirect leaves them in the out directory
> >Sendmail leaves them in the shunt directory
> >
> >Should this tell me anything about what is wrong with postfix?
>
>
> Not directly, but if messages are shunted when using Sendmail, there
> should be 'error' log entries that might tell you something. There
> might also be information in the 'post' log. You would probably learn
> more however by just trying to use the 'sendmail' command to send a
> message without involving Mailman at all.
>

I thought I have another machine that can act as a mail server (and is
also running postfix) maybe I could get it to sent the mail. Since I
am running
DELIVERY_MODULE = 'SMTPDirect'

I thought I could just put the IP number  in mm_cfg.py like this.

SMTPHOST = '123.456.789.6'
SMTPPORT = 0                                      # default from smtplib

When I try this I see the big change in the qfile/out but unfortunatly
the mail is not delivered and in smtp-failures I see (111, 'Connection
refused') messages.  The odd thing is that I do not see rejections in
the postfix logs even with verbose loging.  Am I missing something
about the mailman configuration?

Eric


From attila at kinali.ch  Wed Aug 30 14:37:31 2006
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:37:31 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] working on an insanely huge moderation request list
Message-ID: <20060830143731.4e6e9768.attila@kinali.ch>

Moin,

I recently took the administration of an mailinglist over.
It was quite a shock to find out that it had over 8000(!)
mails waiting in its moderation queue. The problem with this
is of course that the webinterface times out before giving
anything back and returns a 500 server internal error from
the webserver.

I've read about discard and that i can just delete everything
in the queue. But i'd rather like to go trough the list
and be able to aprove some of the held mails. Is there any
way i can work on the queue? Another possibility would be
if i could extract the mails into an mbox/maildir and
handle them in a mail client.

The mailman version in question is 2.1.5

Thanks in advance

			Attila Kinali

-- 
??????????????


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Aug 30 16:20:38 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:20:38 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] working on an insanely huge moderation request
	list
In-Reply-To: <20060830143731.4e6e9768.attila@kinali.ch>
References: <20060830143731.4e6e9768.attila@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00608300720n2347ad94nb8adf55c3bf3a24d@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/30/06, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
> I've read about discard and that i can just delete everything
> in the queue. But i'd rather like to go trough the list
> and be able to aprove some of the held mails. Is there any
> way i can work on the queue? Another possibility would be

Most of the mails in the queue are probably so old that it doesn't
even make sense to approve them. That said, you can probably convince
'find' to remove all of the queue files older than a certain date,
which should help reduce your queue to a managable level, at which
point you can handle it through the web interface.

Alternatively, you can configure your web server to allow more
resources to mailman, so that it can generate the list. This might
require an excessive amount of resources, though, and may not be
advisable.

Lastly, you could unpack each queue file in turn and simply rm the
ones you don't want to approve, although I would imagine this to be
quite a time-consuming process.

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From pdbogen at gmail.com  Wed Aug 30 16:22:43 2006
From: pdbogen at gmail.com (Patrick Bogen)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:22:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't send messages to list
In-Reply-To: <bdb32ec50608300504n1dc9889ara36afb241a864d0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bdb32ec50608282144l52eb50d2i86f9228c2b8ae970@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1760200608282216050093711ebe62@msapiro>
	<bdb32ec50608300504n1dc9889ara36afb241a864d0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fbe3da00608300722i6f9ee78eh8a8c2c17fe06a561@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/30/06, Eric Howland <eric.howland at gmail.com> wrote:
> I thought I have another machine that can act as a mail server (and is
> also running postfix) maybe I could get it to sent the mail. Since I
> am running
> DELIVERY_MODULE = 'SMTPDirect'

Are you sure that the machine in question is configured to (a) listen
on its external IP address (rather than just localhost), and (b) to
accept mail coming from elsewhere and destined for elsewhere? (In most
distribution-installed postfixen, these two things are NOT the default
behaviour, so far as I know. They may be offered by the automatic
configuration (Debian does this), but that still requires some degree
of intention by the person installing the software.)

-- 
- Patrick Bogen


From msapiro at value.net  Wed Aug 30 16:27:06 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 07:27:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam Filters deleted?
In-Reply-To: <44F51817.4050308@kromestudios.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608300727060625efcae9d7@msapiro>

Spyro Polymiadis wrote:
>
>maybe the answer to my own question  
>http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1020102&group_id=103&atid=300103
>Can someone confirm if this is the correct fix for my problem?

It may or may not be. There were two different causes to this problem.
The first is described in the bug reports associated with the above
referenced patch and was fixed in Mailman 2.1.6 by that patch.

The second cause is described in the 2005-07-08 comment to
<http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1230865&group_id=103&atid=100103>
and was fixed in Mailman 2.1.7.

I suggest you download the 2.1.7 version of Mailman/Gui/Privacy.py from
<http://svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/*checkout*/mailman/branches/Release_2_1-maint/mailman/Mailman/Gui/Privacy.py?revision=7565>
and use that.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Wed Aug 30 16:32:51 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 07:32:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and Postfix on different hosts?
In-Reply-To: <44F53EF1.1090802@norrbring.se>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608300732510828efcaeacf@msapiro>

Anders Norrbring wrote:

>Simple question,
>would it be possible to run mailman on one host, and the Postfix MTA on 
>another host?
>
>The reason is that I'm configuring a new in/outgoing server that 
>eventually should take over the "old" one, the old should keep the web 
>server functionality, so I'd like to split things up.
>
>If it can be done, any hints on how?


Using a different host for outgoing mail is simple. Just set SMTPHOST
in mm_cfg.py.

Incoming mail to Mailman is more difficult. This has been discussed
before on this list. See
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.018.htp>
for searching information.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Wed Aug 30 16:44:51 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 07:44:51 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't send messages to list
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00608300722i6f9ee78eh8a8c2c17fe06a561@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608300744510156efcae82f@msapiro>

Patrick Bogen wrote:

>On 8/30/06, Eric Howland <eric.howland at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I thought I have another machine that can act as a mail server (and is
>> also running postfix) maybe I could get it to sent the mail. Since I
>> am running
>> DELIVERY_MODULE = 'SMTPDirect'
>
>Are you sure that the machine in question is configured to (a) listen
>on its external IP address (rather than just localhost), and (b) to
>accept mail coming from elsewhere and destined for elsewhere? (In most
>distribution-installed postfixen, these two things are NOT the default
>behaviour, so far as I know. They may be offered by the automatic
>configuration (Debian does this), but that still requires some degree
>of intention by the person installing the software.)


I don't think (b) is the reason as in this case, the MTA would accept
the connect and the start of the SMTP transaction as it wouldn't know
it was a 'relay' until 'RCPT'.

In any case, this appears to be an issue with Postfix configuration on
'123.456.789.6'.

What happens if you

telnet 123.456.789.6 25

from your Mailman box?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From attila at kinali.ch  Wed Aug 30 16:58:02 2006
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:58:02 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] working on an insanely huge moderation request
 list
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00608300720n2347ad94nb8adf55c3bf3a24d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060830143731.4e6e9768.attila@kinali.ch>
	<6fbe3da00608300720n2347ad94nb8adf55c3bf3a24d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060830165802.5f5c41c7.attila@kinali.ch>

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:20:38 -0500
"Patrick Bogen" <pdbogen at gmail.com> wrote:

> Most of the mails in the queue are probably so old that it doesn't
> even make sense to approve them. That said, you can probably convince
> 'find' to remove all of the queue files older than a certain date,
> which should help reduce your queue to a managable level, at which
> point you can handle it through the web interface.

You might be right, but i want to check them anyways.

> Alternatively, you can configure your web server to allow more
> resources to mailman, so that it can generate the list. This might
> require an excessive amount of resources, though, and may not be
> advisable.

This is unfortunately not possible.
 
> Lastly, you could unpack each queue file in turn and simply rm the
> ones you don't want to approve, although I would imagine this to be
> quite a time-consuming process.

This is about what i want to achieve.
Could you give me a pointer on how to do this?

			Attila Kinali

-- 
??????????????


From msapiro at value.net  Wed Aug 30 16:59:03 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 07:59:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] working on an insanely huge moderation
	requestlist
In-Reply-To: <6fbe3da00608300720n2347ad94nb8adf55c3bf3a24d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608300759030328efcae8ab@msapiro>

Patrick Bogen wrote:

>On 8/30/06, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
>> I've read about discard and that i can just delete everything
>> in the queue. But i'd rather like to go trough the list
>> and be able to aprove some of the held mails. Is there any
>> way i can work on the queue? Another possibility would be
>
>Most of the mails in the queue are probably so old that it doesn't
>even make sense to approve them. That said, you can probably convince
>'find' to remove all of the queue files older than a certain date,
>which should help reduce your queue to a managable level, at which
>point you can handle it through the web interface.


It is best to remove the data/heldmsg-* files with bin/discard as this
will also clean up the request.pck and pending.pck files.

You can use bin/dumpdb to dump the heldmsg-* files. You could probably
script something to make a mbox file or a mail directory. It wouldn't
be difficult to pipe the dumpdb output through sed to make a 'message'.

That said and as Patrick suggests, I would make a list of those
heldmsg-* files older than a week or two (or more if you prefer) and
blindly delete those with bin/discard and handle the rest through the
admindb interface.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From eric.howland at gmail.com  Wed Aug 30 19:06:44 2006
From: eric.howland at gmail.com (Eric Howland)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:06:44 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Can't send messages to list
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200608300744510156efcae82f@msapiro>
References: <6fbe3da00608300722i6f9ee78eh8a8c2c17fe06a561@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1760200608300744510156efcae82f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <bdb32ec50608301006u4fcca6a1vec871fe9e18f65d1@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/30/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> Patrick Bogen wrote:
>
> >On 8/30/06, Eric Howland <eric.howland at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I thought I have another machine that can act as a mail server (and is
> >> also running postfix) maybe I could get it to sent the mail. Since I
> >> am running
> >> DELIVERY_MODULE = 'SMTPDirect'
> >
> >Are you sure that the machine in question is configured to (a) listen
> >on its external IP address (rather than just localhost), and (b) to
> >accept mail coming from elsewhere and destined for elsewhere? (In most
> >distribution-installed postfixen, these two things are NOT the default
> >behaviour, so far as I know. They may be offered by the automatic
> >configuration (Debian does this), but that still requires some degree
> >of intention by the person installing the software.)
>
>
> I don't think (b) is the reason as in this case, the MTA would accept
> the connect and the start of the SMTP transaction as it wouldn't know
> it was a 'relay' until 'RCPT'.
>
> In any case, this appears to be an issue with Postfix configuration on
> '123.456.789.6'.
>
> What happens if you
>
> telnet 123.456.789.6 25
>
> from your Mailman box?
>
Yes this set me on the right path. I did have mynetworks_style and
later mynetworks set correctly but I misread the instructions and
inet_interfaces  was not, in my distribution, set at the default but
limited to localhost just as Patrick said.

After that it was all downhill. I still do not understand what is
wrong with postfix on the original machine but this gives me some
breathing room and clarifies things a bit.


Thanks for your help.


From eric.howland at gmail.com  Wed Aug 30 19:22:07 2006
From: eric.howland at gmail.com (Eric Howland)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:22:07 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and Postfix on different hosts?
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200608300732510828efcaeacf@msapiro>
References: <44F53EF1.1090802@norrbring.se>
	<PC1760200608300732510828efcaeacf@msapiro>
Message-ID: <bdb32ec50608301022t440c5082lb1f05d8a005ccba1@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/30/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
> Anders Norrbring wrote:
>
> >Simple question,
> >would it be possible to run mailman on one host, and the Postfix MTA on
> >another host?
> >
> >The reason is that I'm configuring a new in/outgoing server that
> >eventually should take over the "old" one, the old should keep the web
> >server functionality, so I'd like to split things up.
> >
> >If it can be done, any hints on how?
>
>
> Using a different host for outgoing mail is simple. Just set SMTPHOST
> in mm_cfg.py.
>
> Incoming mail to Mailman is more difficult. This has been discussed
> before on this list. See
> <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.018.htp>
> for searching information.
>

You also need to have
  DELIVERY_MODULE = 'SMTPDirect'
But this is likely already set.

In some ways you are using the new machine as a proxy.  I found this
link to be helpful.
http://www.muine.org/~hoang/postfix.html

It is however both for an older version of postfix and for Sun. Still
I thought it laid it out clearly.


From lists at norrbring.se  Wed Aug 30 19:40:47 2006
From: lists at norrbring.se (Anders Norrbring)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:40:47 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and Postfix on different hosts?
In-Reply-To: <bdb32ec50608301022t440c5082lb1f05d8a005ccba1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44F53EF1.1090802@norrbring.se>	
	<PC1760200608300732510828efcaeacf@msapiro>
	<bdb32ec50608301022t440c5082lb1f05d8a005ccba1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44F5CD9F.9000902@norrbring.se>

Eric Howland skrev:
> On 8/30/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
>> Anders Norrbring wrote:
>>
>> >Simple question,
>> >would it be possible to run mailman on one host, and the Postfix MTA on
>> >another host?
>> >
>> >The reason is that I'm configuring a new in/outgoing server that
>> >eventually should take over the "old" one, the old should keep the web
>> >server functionality, so I'd like to split things up.
>> >
>> >If it can be done, any hints on how?
>>
>>
>> Using a different host for outgoing mail is simple. Just set SMTPHOST
>> in mm_cfg.py.
>>
>> Incoming mail to Mailman is more difficult. This has been discussed
>> before on this list. See
>> <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.018.htp>
>> for searching information.
>>
> 
> You also need to have
>  DELIVERY_MODULE = 'SMTPDirect'
> But this is likely already set.
> 
> In some ways you are using the new machine as a proxy.  I found this
> link to be helpful.
> http://www.muine.org/~hoang/postfix.html
> 
> It is however both for an older version of postfix and for Sun. Still
> I thought it laid it out clearly.

Thanks guys!
I'll look at the provided links to see if I get the idea.. ;)  I'll come 
back here otherwise!
-- 

Anders Norrbring
Norrbring Consulting


From betsy.schwartz at gmail.com  Wed Aug 30 20:12:48 2006
From: betsy.schwartz at gmail.com (Elizabeth Schwartz)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:12:48 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to create a list with an approved list of
	posters? (not answered by FAQ?)
Message-ID: <a923f15e0608301112n5401b9b2h22ed06929e570ddc@mail.gmail.com>

I've read the FAQ and followed the steps at " How to restrict the list so
only authorized persons can post:" at
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.011.htp
but it does not answer this question:

I have been charged with creating two lists, each with a limited set of
people who are allowed to **post** to the list.
One list is an umbrella list ; the other is not.  The people who are allowed
to post are a subset of members of the list.
I see how to allow them to post if they are *not* members of the list , but
not if they *are*.  I can NOT  make these people **moderators** since they
are VIP's who will not tolerate being bombarded with any amount of
"administrivia". They just want to be able to email the list and have their
messages go through. ( the documentation is also unclear about whether
members of sub-lists count as administrators).

Right now I have created the lists so that all messages are moderated and go
to myself or another admin for approval, but that's a poor compromise
because it doesn't allow the VIP's posts to go through immediately.  The
alternative I see would be to subscribe them under an alias that forwards to
their real name and hope mailman is fooled, but that is an even worse
compromise because they would not be able to access the web interface using
their real email address in that case. (a third option seems to be to create
a separate unmoderated list for the post-allowed folks, and subscribe to
that list an alias which goes to the read-only list, but that seems really
painful, and it means all the VIP's on the umbrella list might get
everything twice. But this just seems unnecessarily complex)

Am I missing something? If so please administer the clue bonk
thanks Betsy


From bretton at hivemind.net  Wed Aug 30 20:12:32 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:12:32 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
Message-ID: <44F5D510.4050408@hivemind.net>

Setup: Debian AMD64 (mix testing/stable), Exim 4.62, Mailman 2.1.8 from
       source (with patch to allow @listname in allowed posters), multiple
       installations of Mailman (one instance of MM per virtual domain)

In the last 24 hours we've had the same situation occur with two corporate
clients.

[case 1]
List-member (and host of an INX) sent notification to a network-notices list
with a CC to one of their employees. The message was held for administrative
approval with the error: "message has implicit destination"
 + they are a member, have allowance to post to list
 + they claim no BCC in their message
 + virtualdomain1

[case 2]
List-member sends message to listname at virtualdomain2 and BCC's
listname2 at virtualdomain2. The message was held for administrative approval
with the error: "message has implicit destination"
 + they are a member, have allowance to post to list
 + they indicated BCC to second list in follow-up query, problem resolved
   and message approved for second list

Now in [case 1] we are being held accountable for the 24 hour delay in
responding by authorising the post. This is a critical matter as it impacts
on local Internet infrastructure, but due to the number of lists and
virtualdomains it's simply impossible to have immediate notification for
/every/ administrative request for every list. A once-a-day notification is
one of many as it is and I (or my boss) spend up to an hour a day each
morning just dealing with (mostly spam, non-member) administrative requests.

Now I've already notified client of the reasons (with links to FAQ etc) over
why the "message has implicit destination" error occurs, and switched it off
for that list in particular. What I need though is a concise and accurate
answer as to why this is the default setting in a Mailman installation.

I understand the reason, but I need a non-technical, max 4 line rationale.
Failing that I've been instructed to switch it off for /all/ the lists we
host for corporate clients. Mind you that instruction stands regardless.

What confuses me though is that in [case 1] the list-member claims to have
sent the message as:

 TO: list at virtualdomain1
 CC: some at other.address

In [case 2] it was clearly:

 TO:  list1 at virtualdomain2
 BCC: list2 at virtualdomain2

But both instances resulted in the same administrative delay.

So I'm a little confused. In terms of the info I can find online, there is
no reason [case 1] should have resulted in an error /unless/ the list member
had also included some BCC: addresses, which they claim not to have done. In
[case 2] the error was quickly explained and rectified and the client happy.
Obviously in [case 1] it's a slightly different story as due to the delay in
notification/approval our national peering infrastructure had problems and
someone needs to be held accountable -- in this case me :-)

i.e. What happened, don't let it happen again.

Now when I test the following I /don't/ get the error.

 TO: list1 at virtualdomain3
 CC: list2 at virtualdomain3

Which brings to mind an obvious possibility, but this being what it is that
isn't one that can be entertained. (heads must roll! <chuckles>)

The configuration for all MM virtual domains is the same (barring domain
specifics) and the configuration is highly tweaked to our environment based
on online documentation relating to Mailman and Exim.

Can anyone shed some light (and yes, I've googled and gone through numerous
FAQ answers which have bought me some time but not a reason why the default
installation behaviour is as it is for BCC to lists etc)

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their
own education." - Sir Walter Scott


From luis.talora at iesa.com.br  Wed Aug 30 20:09:24 2006
From: luis.talora at iesa.com.br (luis.talora at iesa.com.br)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:09:24 -0300
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server upgrade
Message-ID: <8F1E572F6ABC5546A4CF79414E22AF9607BAC3@svnt8-3.inepar.com.br>

Friends,
 
We have a Fedora Core 2 box, which is our Mailman/Postfix server. A few
months ago, after a harddisk crash, I?ve tried to install Fedora Core 3
instead and restore Mailman configuration from the backup. It dind?t work at
all. 
 
Now, I?ve decided to try it again, with Fedora 5 (or maybe I?ll wait for
Fedora 6, not sure yet). Do anybody know what do I have to do to install the
server and have Mailman (configuration, list archieves, etc.) working? Even
if I have to copy stuff manually to different folders, no problem: I just
need to know where and which that folders wold be.
 
Thanks a lot!
 
Best regrads,
 
Luis Talora
 

-- 
Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo sistema de antiv?rus e
 acredita-se estar livre de perigo.



From mehlsa at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu  Wed Aug 30 21:06:18 2006
From: mehlsa at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu (Sam Mehl)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:06:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] restricting posts to to:
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0608301504420.27896@michigan.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu>

Can I somehow set my mailing list to accept messages where the mailing 
list is addressed as the "To:" field, but have it reject posts where the 
mailing list is addressed in someone's "cc:" or "bcc:" field?

I couldn't find anything in the archives or documentation about this.

Thanks
-Sam



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Wed Aug 30 21:44:31 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:44:31 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] restricting posts to to:
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0608301504420.27896@michigan.nmr.mgh.harvard .edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0608301504420.27896@michigan.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060830123751.06349f70@crimson-dragon.com>

Sam Mehl sent the message below at 12:06 8/30/2006:
>Can I somehow set my mailing list to accept messages where the mailing
>list is addressed as the "To:" field, but have it reject posts where the
>mailing list is addressed in someone's "cc:" or "bcc:" field?
>
>I couldn't find anything in the archives or documentation about this.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Yes and no.

If a list is included in the BCC: field and the 
require_explicit_destination setting is on, this will work for BCC: 
That setting is located on the Privacy Options->Recipient Filters page.

It will not work for CC: as mailman basically treats the TO: and CC: 
fields as essentially the same thing (which is in accord with the 
applicable RFCs). In order for this behavior to be different you will 
either have to modify mailman code, use a custom handler in the 
incoming stream or filter such messages at the incoming queue of your MTA.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From atrick at prin.edu  Wed Aug 30 21:48:36 2006
From: atrick at prin.edu (Allan Trick)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:48:36 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Umbrella lists within umbrella lists?
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060830144623.02da6ea0@mail.prin.edu>

I've got about 20 lists contained within a smaller number of umbrella 
lists which enables our users to message people on multiple lists by 
addressing a more compact single address.  I have a new request to 
create an intermediate list now.  This would require an umbrella 
address like we have now, but then it contains two OTHER umbrella 
lists, which then go to actual lists.

Does Mailman allow an umbrella list within an umbrella list?

Thx,

Allan



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Wed Aug 30 22:03:56 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:03:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060830130302.035ede48@crimson-dragon.com>

Oops... forgot to send my reply to the list too. Sorry about that 
Bretton, I did not mean for you to receive it twice.


Bretton Vine wrote:

<snip>

>I understand the reason, but I need a non-technical, max 4 line rationale.
>Failing that I've been instructed to switch it off for /all/ the lists we
>host for corporate clients. Mind you that instruction stands regardless.

<snip>

>Can anyone shed some light (and yes, I've googled and gone through numerous
>FAQ answers which have bought me some time but not a reason why the default
>installation behaviour is as it is for BCC to lists etc)
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

I think that the answer is quite simply that it was a design decision 
made based upon what the designers thought would be desirable for 
most users. This is because quite often spammers use the BCC: 
mechanism to try to avoid being pegged by certain anti-spam measures 
that look at the number of destination addresses to help identify 
bulk-mail attempts. Personally, I believe it to be a reasonable default.

Of course, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from turning the 
setting off. You probably would want some pretty aggressive anti-spam 
filtering and possibly graylisting enabled on your incoming queue of 
your MTA if you do that.

To override the default setting for NEW lists, you can add the 
following to your mm_cfg.py file:

DEFAULT_REQUIRE_EXPLICIT_DESTINATION = No


This will not change anything on the existing lists, you will have to 
change them individually or en mass with a withlist script.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From bretton at hivemind.net  Wed Aug 30 22:34:50 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:34:50 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to create a list with an approved list of
 posters? (not answered by FAQ?)
In-Reply-To: <a923f15e0608301112n5401b9b2h22ed06929e570ddc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a923f15e0608301112n5401b9b2h22ed06929e570ddc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44F5F66A.2020900@hivemind.net>

Elizabeth Schwartz said the following on 2006/08/30 08:12 PM:
> I see how to allow them to post if they are *not* members of the list , but
> not if they *are*.

We found the following useful for non-members (but members of another list):
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=300103&aid=1220144&group_id=103

That and a combination of setting the moderator flag for a list for all
users and unsetting of "mod" for specific addresses in Membership Management
we want to allow to post which is probably what you want.

regards
-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"The true test of character is not how much we know how to do, but how we
behave when we don't know what to do." - John Holt


From bretton at hivemind.net  Wed Aug 30 23:22:16 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:22:16 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060830130302.035ede48@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060830130302.035ede48@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <44F60188.5080700@hivemind.net>

Dragon said the following on 2006/08/30 10:03 PM:
> Oops... forgot to send my reply to the list too. Sorry about that 
> Bretton, I did not mean for you to receive it twice.

Not a problem, and thanks for the reply ;-)
However it doesn't solve my problem of determining why a
 TO: list at vdomain; CC: third at party
resulted in "message has implicit destination error".
I can't seem to reproduce the incident myself for some reason.

> I think that the answer is quite simply that it was a design decision 
> made based upon what the designers thought would be desirable for 
> most users.

(no criticism intended to developers, but I have to ask:)
Was this requested by users; were users involved in this decision; or was it
a case of developers deciding for users what they thought was best given the
environment of email/lists from the developer perspective?

I repeat, no criticism intended, I just need to be able to give a complete
answer and am anticipating the questions I'll be asked. :-)

> Personally, I believe it to be a reasonable default.

I don't disagree. However the documentation is clear that BCC'ing a list
will result in administrative oversight (if setting is'on'). But not very
clear as to why a TO:list;CC:3rd-party would result in the same by a post
from a list member who is authorised to post.

In terms of the logs, the error is /exactly/ the same whether it's

 TO: list
 CC: someone

or

 TO: list
 BCC: someone

or

 TO: someone
 BCC: list

Yes, I'm being pedantic -- but an explanation of the principle doesn't
always answer what happens in practice. I know answers can't be sucked out
of thin-air, but perhaps this has come up before?
(or not and I need to look deeper)

> Of course, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from turning the 
> setting off. You probably would want some pretty aggressive anti-spam 
> filtering and possibly graylisting enabled on your incoming queue of 
> your MTA if you do that.

We've found relatively little spam making it to any lists as it is. By just
how much a margin will turning the setting off impact on posts from
non-members reaching the list is non-member posting is already disallowed?
Is it just theoretical, negligible or will have it have major impact?

In terms of our logs, the "message has implicit destination" occurs maybe
once for every 50 or so "post by non-member/unapproved-address to
member-only list" so if you look at it from a higher level service provider
approach it doesn't seem like it would make much of a difference, and
therefore is unnecessary to leave the setting enabled.

I don't quite agree, but it seems to be a point of view without a strong
counter-argument.

regards
-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

Every portrait that is painted with feeling is a portrait of the artist, not
of the sitter. - Oscar Wilde


From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Thu Aug 31 00:24:05 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:24:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
In-Reply-To: <44F60188.5080700@hivemind.net>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060830130302.035ede48@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F60188.5080700@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060830144510.036105d8@crimson-dragon.com>

Bretton Vine sent the message below at 14:22 8/30/2006:
>Dragon said the following on 2006/08/30 10:03 PM:
> > Oops... forgot to send my reply to the list too. Sorry about that
> > Bretton, I did not mean for you to receive it twice.
>
>Not a problem, and thanks for the reply ;-)
>However it doesn't solve my problem of determining why a
>  TO: list at vdomain; CC: third at party
>resulted in "message has implicit destination error".
>I can't seem to reproduce the incident myself for some reason.

The TO: and CC: headers of an e-mail are both treated as explicit 
destinations and should not trigger this behavior. The only type of 
implicit destination I am aware of is an address in a BCC: field.

I just tested this on one of my lists. I sent an e-mail with the To: 
set to one of my other e-mail addresses and the CC: set to my list 
address. I did this with the require_explicit_destination setting 
both on and off. I did not receive an error, the post was not held. I 
had require_explicit_destination set to on for all of my lists in the 
past but I have changed that since we implemented some aggressive 
anti-spam measures on our server. It worked as advertised when I had 
it enabled.

My personal opinion on this situation is that the user was not 
telling you the truth. Whether that was from forgetting or outright 
deception I have no way to know. The only other thing I can think of 
is that some other type of error resulted in the message being held.

I will admit I am not overly familiar with the internals of mailman 
as I am just a (somewhat) knowledgeable user and not an active 
developer. However, I still cannot see how this could happen and 
cannot duplicate the behavior as I understand it.


>(no criticism intended to developers, but I have to ask:)
>Was this requested by users; were users involved in this decision; or was it
>a case of developers deciding for users what they thought was best given the
>environment of email/lists from the developer perspective?

As I am not one of the developers and I was not using mailman when 
that feature was implemented, I cannot answer if there was any 
community input into that decision. However, the decision that was 
made seems quite logical to me.


>I repeat, no criticism intended, I just need to be able to give a complete
>answer and am anticipating the questions I'll be asked. :-)

I don't really understand why this is a concern, to me it just 
doesn't make a difference. It is very easy to override the implicit 
destination behavior if it is not appropriate for your lists. I 
honestly think somebody is making a mountain of a mole hill here.


> > Personally, I believe it to be a reasonable default.
>
>I don't disagree. However the documentation is clear that BCC'ing a list
>will result in administrative oversight (if setting is'on'). But not very
>clear as to why a TO:list;CC:3rd-party would result in the same by a post
>from a list member who is authorised to post.
>
>In terms of the logs, the error is /exactly/ the same whether it's
>
>  TO: list
>  CC: someone
>
>or
>
>  TO: list
>  BCC: someone
>
>or
>
>  TO: someone
>  BCC: list
>
>Yes, I'm being pedantic -- but an explanation of the principle doesn't
>always answer what happens in practice. I know answers can't be sucked out
>of thin-air, but perhaps this has come up before?
>(or not and I need to look deeper)

As I said above, this should never have happened as far as I can 
tell. I'm sure one of the developers with more knowledge about this 
will correct me if I am wrong.


> > Of course, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from turning the
> > setting off. You probably would want some pretty aggressive anti-spam
> > filtering and possibly graylisting enabled on your incoming queue of
> > your MTA if you do that.
>
>We've found relatively little spam making it to any lists as it is. By just
>how much a margin will turning the setting off impact on posts from
>non-members reaching the list is non-member posting is already disallowed?
>Is it just theoretical, negligible or will have it have major impact?

If you set the default non-member action to Hold, no posts from 
non-members will get through unless a moderator explicitly approves 
them. If your spam filtering is good enough to keep examining the 
held messages from being an excessive work load, then by all means, 
disable the setting.

The only potential problem I see, and it is a difficult one to solve, 
is with e-mails with forged sender addresses that match list member 
addresses. These e-mails will get through to the list.

Since the use of the BCC: with a forged FROM: address is a common 
spammer tactic, it will result in some unwanted noise. How often that 
would happen is anyone's guess. How tolerable the problem would be is 
also anyone's guess.

Just be aware that such things do tend to increase list-member 
dissatisfaction and the more volatile/vocal members may comment upon 
such things on the list. This was one of the driving forces behind my 
lists migrating from an older version of majordomo to mailman earlier 
this year.


>In terms of our logs, the "message has implicit destination" occurs maybe
>once for every 50 or so "post by non-member/unapproved-address to
>member-only list" so if you look at it from a higher level service provider
>approach it doesn't seem like it would make much of a difference, and
>therefore is unnecessary to leave the setting enabled.

That is one person's opinion, I would be willing to bet that most 
people who run members-only lists would disagree.


>I don't quite agree, but it seems to be a point of view without a strong
>counter-argument.

And this is why this setting exists as an option.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Aug 31 00:09:17 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:09:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
In-Reply-To: <44F60188.5080700@hivemind.net>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060830130302.035ede48@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F60188.5080700@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <p06240500c11bbb399cb4@[192.168.1.102]>

At 11:22 PM +0200 2006-08-30, Bretton Vine wrote:

>  (no criticism intended to developers, but I have to ask:)
>  Was this requested by users; were users involved in this decision; or was it
>  a case of developers deciding for users what they thought was best given the
>  environment of email/lists from the developer perspective?

The developers *are* the original users.  They wrote Mailman for 
themselves and their own needs, and were willing to share that with 
others.  What has happened since is that a variety of other features 
have been added over time, based on their own requirements and 
desires as well as input from others.

But all of the core developers are also heavy users of Mailman, both 
on python.org and on other mailing list servers -- including some of 
the largest known Mailman-hosted mailing lists servers.

>>  Personally, I believe it to be a reasonable default.
>
>  I don't disagree. However the documentation is clear that BCC'ing a list
>  will result in administrative oversight (if setting is'on'). But not very
>  clear as to why a TO:list;CC:3rd-party would result in the same by a post
>  from a list member who is authorised to post.

I'm not convinced that your case is what you think it is.  I have not 
heard enough details about the problem to know for sure.

>  We've found relatively little spam making it to any lists as it is. By just
>  how much a margin will turning the setting off impact on posts from
>  non-members reaching the list is non-member posting is already disallowed?
>  Is it just theoretical, negligible or will have it have major impact?

The answer is "it depends".

This week, changing this setting may make no visible difference, but 
next week you might get bombarded with spam being sent to the list 
which does not include the list address as a named recipient in 
either the "To:" or "Cc:" headers.

Every site is different.  Every list is different.  Every month is 
different.  Every week is different.  Every day is different.

Pick out which of these different issues apply to your different 
situation, and then figure out which different answer applies to your 
case.

>  In terms of our logs, the "message has implicit destination" occurs maybe
>  once for every 50 or so "post by non-member/unapproved-address to
>  member-only list" so if you look at it from a higher level service provider
>  approach it doesn't seem like it would make much of a difference, and
>  therefore is unnecessary to leave the setting enabled.

At some sites, you're not going to see this kind of spam very often. 
At other sites, you see boatloads of it on an hourly basis.  It all 
depends.

We prefer to have this option default to "on", because it is safer 
that way, and people can always choose to set their choice to be more 
permissive.  The reverse would be much worse for sites that have 
these kinds of problems, especially if those sites tend to be 
administered by less Mailman-savvy personnel, since a great deal of 
damage could be done in a very short period of time.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Aug 31 00:12:08 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:12:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] working on an insanely huge moderation request
 list
In-Reply-To: <20060830143731.4e6e9768.attila@kinali.ch>
References: <20060830143731.4e6e9768.attila@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <p06240502c11bbd832601@[192.168.1.102]>

At 2:37 PM +0200 2006-08-30, Attila Kinali wrote:

>  I've read about discard and that i can just delete everything
>  in the queue. But i'd rather like to go trough the list
>  and be able to aprove some of the held mails. Is there any
>  way i can work on the queue? Another possibility would be
>  if i could extract the mails into an mbox/maildir and
>  handle them in a mail client.

There are some optional additional tools you can use to help make 
this sort of situation easier.  See the FAQ entries regarding 
command-line moderation, etc....

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Aug 31 00:16:33 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:16:33 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
In-Reply-To: <44F5D510.4050408@hivemind.net>
References: <44F5D510.4050408@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <p06240503c11bbe57579f@[192.168.1.102]>

At 8:12 PM +0200 2006-08-30, Bretton Vine wrote:

>  Now when I test the following I /don't/ get the error.
>
>  TO: list1 at virtualdomain3
>  CC: list2 at virtualdomain3
>
>  Which brings to mind an obvious possibility, but this being what it is that
>  isn't one that can be entertained. (heads must roll! <chuckles>)

Being that your client is lying to you.  I'd go with that, myself.

You could ask them to send you a verbatim copy of the message as they 
transmitted it to the list, and go back to your logs to make sure. 
I'd be willing to bet that they are either knowingly lying to you in 
order to cover their own asses, or they don't fully understand the 
question that they're being asked so that they are not giving you an 
accurate answer.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Aug 31 00:18:25 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:18:25 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to create a list with an approved list of
 posters? (not answered by FAQ?)
In-Reply-To: <a923f15e0608301112n5401b9b2h22ed06929e570ddc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a923f15e0608301112n5401b9b2h22ed06929e570ddc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240504c11bbecd735e@[192.168.1.102]>

At 2:12 PM -0400 2006-08-30, Elizabeth Schwartz wrote:

>  I have been charged with creating two lists, each with a limited set of
>  people who are allowed to **post** to the list.
>  One list is an umbrella list ; the other is not.  The people who are allowed
>  to post are a subset of members of the list.

That would be required for the umbrella list situation, unless you 
want to apply the patch where you can use the @list notation to call 
in the list of subscribers from another list and then put that in the 
set of approved senders.

>  I see how to allow them to post if they are *not* members of the list , but
>  not if they *are*.

Just turn off their moderation bits, but leave everyone else moderated.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug 31 01:22:56 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:22:56 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
In-Reply-To: <44F60188.5080700@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608301622560703a99587d7@msapiro>

Bretton Vine wrote:

>I repeat, no criticism intended, I just need to be able to give a complete
>answer and am anticipating the questions I'll be asked. :-)


I think most of what I'm going to say here has been said by Dragon and
Brad already, but just for emphasis...

The major reason for require_explicit_destination is it helps filter
spam on an 'open' list (generic_nonmember_action = accept) and on a
closed list where the spammer might spoof a list member's address as
sender because much spam does not address the recipient directly.

The default setting in Defaults.py can be overridden by any site that
whishes the default for new lists to be No.

Whatever is chosen as the Defaults.py value for any particular list
setting, some will wish it had been the other way. It is simply not
possible to create "out of the box" defaults that will satisfy
everyone. That is why a site can change the defaults for itself and
individual lists can be changed to be different from the site defaults.



>In terms of the logs, the error is /exactly/ the same whether it's
>
> TO: list
> CC: someone
>
>or
>
> TO: list
> BCC: someone
>
>or
>
> TO: someone
> BCC: list
>
>Yes, I'm being pedantic -- but an explanation of the principle doesn't
>always answer what happens in practice. I know answers can't be sucked out
>of thin-air, but perhaps this has come up before?
>(or not and I need to look deeper)



What you are saying above is not correct.

require_explicit_destination means only that the list posting address
or one of the acceptable_aliases addresses must appear somewhere in a
To: or Cc: header of the post as received by Mailman. The presence of
a Cc: header or Bcc: header (which Mailman probably never sees). has
nothing to do with it.

Thus of your 3 examples above, if 'list' is the list posting address
that Mailman expects to see, only the 3rd example will be held for
implicit destination because in this and only this case, Mailman
doesn't see the list address as a recipient of the post.

Further,

To: someone
Cc: list

will also be accepted.

When the message is held for 'implicit destination', view the headers
of the message in the admindb interface and/or forward the post to
yourself, and you will see that what I'm saying is correct.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From bretton at hivemind.net  Thu Aug 31 01:21:48 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 01:21:48 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060830144510.036105d8@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060830130302.035ede48@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F60188.5080700@hivemind.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060830144510.036105d8@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <44F61D8C.1020806@hivemind.net>

Dragon said the following on 2006/08/31 12:24 AM:
> I just tested this on one of my lists. I sent an e-mail with the To: set
> to one of my other e-mail addresses and the CC: set to my list address.
<snip>
> It worked as advertised when I had it enabled.

I can confirm my own testing duplicates this.

> My personal opinion on this situation is that the user was not telling
> you the truth.

I share this opinion, but have no evidence to support it other than mild
speculation. Co-incidence I had two instances in a given 24 hour period,
where one fitted the model perfectly and worked as indicated, while the
other defies explanation yet requires it.

> I cannot answer if there was any community input into that decision.
> However, the decision that was made seems quite logical to me.

Ditto, however if you'll bear with me here, I'm not a developer either
(sysadmin) and answers that satisfy technical people don't always satisfy
decision-makers (however familiar they are with the concepts/technology).

What I'm gathering from the development of this discussion is that my
initial suspicions were correct and it's possibly just a case of someone
trying to shift blame. After all, they would have received immediate
notification of the moderator approval and if urgency was of the essence
could easily have followed up with me direct.

When you're in the business of providing list-based communication to paying
clients (who understand the usefulness of lists, and are mostly technically
inclined etc) it doesn't help to give a BOFH answer. At least by discussing
the issue I have references from other people who've tested the situation
and together we contribute to the pool of user knowledge :-)

> I don't really understand why this is a concern, to me it just doesn't
> make a difference. It is very easy to override the implicit destination
> behavior if it is not appropriate for your lists. I honestly think
> somebody is making a mountain of a mole hill here.

I have an excellent boss, who requires exact, simple answers to often
difficult questions. I don't think I'm alone here. And one should never
mistake ignorance for idiocy, something an /awful/ lot of open source
developers (well zealots perhaps) are inclined to do (imho), whether it be
through elitism or sheer exasperation at the types of questions asked by a
user base. i.e. RTFM or RTFAQ default reply.

If I'm being pedantic (yes again!) it's because these things do come up, and
where I was schooled you weren't a fool for asking a question, no matter how
simple or obvious the answer might be to anyone else.

> As I said above, this should never have happened as far as I can tell.
> I'm sure one of the developers with more knowledge about this will
> correct me if I am wrong.

I'm hoping for more information so I can prepare a summary of the situation.
Clearly there are two potential answers:

 1. We don't have the full information from the original poster
 2. We don't have the full information in terms of documentation or skills

If you're in the business of 'making things happen' via mailing lists, and
over 10 years experience in doing so which of the above is more relevant?
(it helps to have good mentors who can see the impact of collaborative
principles and not just the ideologies available to implement them -- the
textbook answer is seldom the one they want to hear)

> The only potential problem I see, and it is a difficult one to solve, is
> with e-mails with forged sender addresses that match list member
> addresses. These e-mails will get through to the list.

Exim ACLs seem to be taking care of that nicely. Roughly 1 in 10 000 failure
over last 6 months. And the system has that sort of load on a daily basis.

> Just be aware that such things do tend to increase list-member
> dissatisfaction and the more volatile/vocal members may comment upon
> such things on the list. This was one of the driving forces behind my
> lists migrating from an older version of majordomo to mailman earlier
> this year.

In my experience (to date) list-member dissatisfaction is related more to
unwanted posts from fellow list-members who don't know how to
reply-to-sender when a list is set to reply-to-list; and those who don't
know how to reply-to-list when it is set to reply-to-sender and less about
unwanted posts.

  i.e. user-education/user-error related more than spam concerns

(For epic flame wars feel free to join some .ZA lists where people are more
than happy to bicker for days over netiquette and internet ideology <chuckles>)

> That is one person's opinion, I would be willing to bet that most people
> who run members-only lists would disagree.

That one person's opinion is the foremost expert on Internet policy on the
African continent. And yes, we've been running lists for quite a long time
already. And that person pays the bills, and only funds what produces
results so their opinion counts considerably if I want to remain employed <grin>

>> I don't quite agree, but it seems to be a point of view without a strong
>> counter-argument.
> And this is why this setting exists as an option.

When someone asks "but why is this enabled by default" an answer of "but you
can turn it off" is seldom sufficient in satisfying their curiosity.

Some people want options and flashing lights and a machine that goes "ping"
while others actually want to know why the lights flash in the first place.
I work for the latter <wink>

Believe it or not, their is an intelligent user base out there and if you're
not a coder, it helps to at least ask (or pass on) the questions you hear
from it. But I digress ...


-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"To dare to live alone is the rarest courage; since there are many who had
rather meet their bitterest enemy in the field, than their own hearts in
their closet." - Charles Caleb Colton


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug 31 02:04:52 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:04:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Spam Filters deleted?
In-Reply-To: <44F6231D.5080008@kromestudios.com>
References: <PC1760200608300727060625efcae9d7@msapiro>
	<44F6231D.5080008@kromestudios.com>
Message-ID: <44F627A4.6060807@value.net>

Spyro Polymiadis wrote:

> I ended up grabbing the 2.1.8 Privacy.py file and it seems to have fixed 
> the problem..


Good.


>Mark out of interest, that last link you provided me with 
> gave me a:
> 
> 
>       An Exception Has Occurred
> 
> The root "mailman" is unknown. If you believe the value is correct, then please double-check your configuration.
> 
> 
>         HTTP Response Status
> 
> 404 Repository not found


The link in your reply email worked for me just now. Maybe it was a 
transient issue at sourceforge. Anyway, the differences between the 
2.1.8 version of Privacy.py and the one at the link I provided are 
totally cosmetic. You should be fine with the 2.1.8 version.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From bretton at hivemind.net  Thu Aug 31 02:07:31 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:07:31 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
 (devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240500c11bbb399cb4@[192.168.1.102]>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060830130302.035ede48@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F60188.5080700@hivemind.net>
	<p06240500c11bbb399cb4@[192.168.1.102]>
Message-ID: <44F62843.2050804@hivemind.net>

Brad Knowles said the following on 2006/08/31 12:09 AM:
<snip useful comments>
> We prefer to have this option default to "on", because it is safer that
> way, and people can always choose to set their choice to be more
> permissive. 

(locally) it's been referred to as a "be strict in what you send, relaxed in
what you receive" approach but not everyone adheres to (or is aware of) this
way of looking at things and it seems antiquated to some.

I *know* the developers develop according to their needs, and needs change
with time and input. And the openness of the GNU approach allows anyone to
modify at will (provided they have the skill), and heck no-one likes
documenting stuff but someone has to do it.

But many people will choose a Mailman solution on the basis of cost and
relative availability of help and support. Plus Mailman has largely
dominated what was previously a majordomo or listserv orientated world.

Just because a 'default option' seems sensible and obvious to implement from
a developer perspective doesn't mean you can avoid having to explain it.
This is a frustration I personally have as I'm often the person documenting
things smarter people do on the network I look after.

No matter whether you're a core developer, patch developer, documentation
person, or verbal user, people are going to use your product. It's either
going to be good, or outright crap. And even when it's the best solution
available, and all the right decisions have been made in implementation
design, users may choose something else because it's *more shiny*.

And sometimes users may become irate at your implementation of a solution on
their behalf and decide they can do it themselves, only to repeat all the
same mistakes you made and end up at the same end result -- feeling like
fools but too embarrassed to return and ask for your help.

In a commercial environment this is quite costly to both parties so avoiding
that situation leads to more successful/stable product iterations (not to
mention $$$)

Ok, granted, no-one's specifically 'selling' anything here. That doesn't
negate responsibility for the default options though. It's insufficient to
give people an "option" to change something. Some need to know why/how/what.

</wipes froth from mouth>

> kinds of problems, especially if those sites tend to be administered by
> less Mailman-savvy personnel, since a great deal of damage could be done
> in a very short period of time.

I have lots of experience with non-list savoy people, from list-owners to
list-users. Few of them are inclined to actually /look/ for an answer. It's
much easier to ask someone else. And in many cases a sheep-like mentality
occurs where people do things a certain way because "that's just the way
it's done" or "things _may_ go wrong if we do it differently".

Think of a lowest-common-denominator list user. What would you recommend as
an OS interface to them? osx or windows or linux or even dos? Now apply the
same basic principle to a web-based list-administrative interface. Throw in
some experienced majordomo users for good measure, along with some people
that are unaware of anything other than a browser called IE exists and give
them full control of their own lists. Seriously, what's the worst that can
happen -- someone learning from mistakes, something we do naturally?

In my experience, presenting the end user with all the options early on
(with clear explanations) leads to a more rapid and confident learning curve
than giving them permanent training wheels and no explanation. Takes a bit
more effort, but the rewards are well worth it. But at the same time you
have a market that wants a one-size-fits-all solution. Catch-22.

A mailing lists key function is to act as a list. Not as a spam filter. Sure
it's a useful extra, perhaps even pretty-bells-and-whistles useful. But does
it actually contribute anything to the core function, or add any value that
can not be achieved from within the mail system itself?
If not, why is the default set to "on"?

Another school of thought evident in many .conf files I've seen is something
like the following:

# Uncomment the following line to enable $functionality. This setting is
# disabled by default because it is important you understand why it exists
# and actually turn it on purposefully (which is what we suggest you do)
# See http://..... for full explanation
#
# Functionality = 1

regards
-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

aibohphobia, n., The fear of palindromes.


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug 31 02:17:25 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:17:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Umbrella lists within umbrella lists?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060830144623.02da6ea0@mail.prin.edu>
Message-ID: <PC17602006083017172503282d3f0ba1@msapiro>

Allan Trick wrote:

>I have a new request to 
>create an intermediate list now.  This would require an umbrella 
>address like we have now, but then it contains two OTHER umbrella 
>lists, which then go to actual lists.
>
>Does Mailman allow an umbrella list within an umbrella list?


Absolutely. In fact, Mailman has no real knowledge of whether a list
member is another list or not.

The umbrella list settings are mainly so that administrivia from the
umbrella list is sent to member-owner (or other suffix) rather than
member. This makes it tricky to have a list with a combination of
lists and people as its direct members, but there is no problem with
lists of lists of lists to any level.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From bretton at hivemind.net  Thu Aug 31 02:22:19 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:22:19 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
In-Reply-To: <PC1760200608301622560703a99587d7@msapiro>
References: <PC1760200608301622560703a99587d7@msapiro>
Message-ID: <44F62BBB.4000501@hivemind.net>

Mark Sapiro said the following on 2006/08/31 01:22 AM:
> Whatever is chosen as the Defaults.py value for any particular list
> setting, some will wish it had been the other way. It is simply not
> possible to create "out of the box" defaults that will satisfy
> everyone. That is why a site can change the defaults for itself and
> individual lists can be changed to be different from the site defaults.

I understand, thanks for the additional clarification :-)
(Lot easier to illustrate a point when a number of people say the
same/similar thing)

> What you are saying above is not correct.
<snip>
> Thus of your 3 examples above, if 'list' is the list posting address
> that Mailman expects to see, only the 3rd example will be held for
> implicit destination because in this and only this case, Mailman
> doesn't see the list address as a recipient of the post.

Aaaah, but that's the crux of the situation. I have read the documentation.
I have searched the FAQs. I have asked the list and I keep getting the same
answer: there is no obvious reason a {TO:listname,CC:thirdparty} post should
result in the "message has implicit destination" error.

However I am expected to provide one.

I have an example of {TO:list1;BCC:list2} resulting in the administrative
error so I know it works as it should. But I also have an example where I
get that error without the different inputs and yet can't reproduce the
error myself.

If I'm being a bit anal it's because I need to be quite sure of myself if
I'm going to suggest the problem exists between keyboard and chair ...

> Further,
> To: someone
> Cc: list
> will also be accepted.

Yup, tested and it works. Except I have a message from a list-member that
matches that setup and still resulted in the error indicated. Odd? I think
so. Does the error lie with the system, no, I'm pretty sure it doesn't going
by the useful input I've had. Thanks again :-)

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"You have not converted a man because you have silenced him." - John Morley


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug 31 02:55:39 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:55:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
In-Reply-To: <44F62BBB.4000501@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <PC17602006083017553905933fca75d8@msapiro>

Bretton Vine wrote:

>Mark Sapiro said the following on 2006/08/31 01:22 AM:
>
>> Thus of your 3 examples above, if 'list' is the list posting address
>> that Mailman expects to see, only the 3rd example will be held for
>> implicit destination because in this and only this case, Mailman
>> doesn't see the list address as a recipient of the post.
>
>Aaaah, but that's the crux of the situation. I have read the documentation.
>I have searched the FAQs. I have asked the list and I keep getting the same
>answer: there is no obvious reason a {TO:listname,CC:thirdparty} post should
>result in the "message has implicit destination" error.
>
>However I am expected to provide one.


I understand and I sympathize.  In another life, I worked at a college.
The main user liason/applications programmer person for the student
information system used to refer the these kinds of things as being
caused by a 'poltergeist'. It drove me crazy, because I knew there was
a real explaination for every glitch, and I wanted to find it, but I
think the 'poltergeist' explaination worked for many of the users.


>I have an example of {TO:list1;BCC:list2} resulting in the administrative
>error so I know it works as it should. But I also have an example where I
>get that error without the different inputs and yet can't reproduce the
>error myself.
>
>If I'm being a bit anal it's because I need to be quite sure of myself if
>I'm going to suggest the problem exists between keyboard and chair ...
>
>> Further,
>> To: someone
>> Cc: list
>> will also be accepted.
>
>Yup, tested and it works. Except I have a message from a list-member that
>matches that setup and still resulted in the error indicated. Odd? I think
>so. Does the error lie with the system, no, I'm pretty sure it doesn't going
>by the useful input I've had. Thanks again :-)


Do you have an actual message? Where did this message come from? Is
this a message captured from the admindb interface, received from the
list after approval or sent to you after the fact? Or are you just
talking about the message without actually having it in hand?

Here's my advice for the next time if there is one. Examine the actual
message headers in the admindb interface and in addition to approving
the message, check the box to forward a copy to yourself. It would
have been really handy if you had done this with the original message,
but of course you had no way to know you would want/need this
information.

Also, you've probably already set require_explicit_destination off for
the list so there won't be a next time.

Hint - look at max_num_recipients before you get burned on that one too.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Aug 31 02:37:59 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:37:59 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
In-Reply-To: <44F61D8C.1020806@hivemind.net>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060830130302.035ede48@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F60188.5080700@hivemind.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060830144510.036105d8@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F61D8C.1020806@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <p06240508c11bdae2083c@[10.0.1.210]>

At 1:21 AM +0200 2006-08-31, Bretton Vine wrote:

>>  As I said above, this should never have happened as far as I can tell.
>>  I'm sure one of the developers with more knowledge about this will
>>  correct me if I am wrong.
>
>  I'm hoping for more information so I can prepare a summary of the situation.
>  Clearly there are two potential answers:
>
>  1. We don't have the full information from the original poster
>  2. We don't have the full information in terms of documentation or skills

I would say that both situations are possible, and maybe even likely.

>  If you're in the business of 'making things happen' via mailing lists, and
>  over 10 years experience in doing so which of the above is more relevant?
>  (it helps to have good mentors who can see the impact of collaborative
>  principles and not just the ideologies available to implement them -- the
>  textbook answer is seldom the one they want to hear)

Well, I've been using Unix for over twenty-two years, a professional 
Unix system administrator for almost seventeen, specializing in DNS 
and Internet e-mail administration for over a decade, including a 
two-year stint as the Sr. Internet Mail System Administrator for 
America Online, and one of the first people to do some serious 
large-scale anti-spam work that was contributed back to the user 
community (with the approval of my boss).  I've been involved in 
administering large mailing lists for over a decade, and I've 
assisted with some of the largest mailing lists on the planet (as of 
the time of their creation).

I've been a technical reviewer of a couple of O'Reilly books, 
technical reviewer of a couple more technical Internet-related books 
from other publishers, I've written an article on the Network Time 
Protocol that will be published in the October issue of _;login:_ 
magazine (published by the USENIX Association), a six-part series on 
spam-fighting "best practices" that will soon be published on the 
LOPSA.org website, and I've got a book of my own that I'm working on 
writing.

And with all that, I know I'm not the most experienced or talented 
person on the Mailman project.  I'm just a mail operations guy who 
helps to run the python.org mail system and co-moderator of some of 
the mailing lists on python.org -- including this one.

So, does my opinion count?

>  That one person's opinion is the foremost expert on Internet policy on the
>  African continent. And yes, we've been running lists for quite a long time
>  already. And that person pays the bills, and only funds what produces
>  results so their opinion counts considerably if I want to remain employed
>  <grin>

The person in question wouldn't happen to be named Andr?s Salamon 
(see <http://www.dns.net/andras/>), would he?  If so, Andr?s and I go 
way back (back to the time when he was originally working to create 
the DNS Resources Directory), and if he's got any questions he can 
come straight to me.

Last I had heard, Andr?s had left the day-to-day management work down 
in .ZA, and had gone on to establish one of the leading venture 
capital firms down there, but I haven't checked in with him lately, 
so maybe he's off doing something else now.

>  When someone asks "but why is this enabled by default" an answer of "but you
>  can turn it off" is seldom sufficient in satisfying their curiosity.

The answer is that it's turned on by default because that's the 
safest choice.  Period.  End of discussion.

Now, the option does exist so that you can decide to change that 
setting, if you prefer.  But you're not going to change the default 
that's built-in to the code as it is shipped.  And I'm pretty sure 
you're not going to get a different answer from the core developers.

>  Some people want options and flashing lights and a machine that goes "ping"
>  while others actually want to know why the lights flash in the first place.
>  I work for the latter <wink>

Yeah, but sometimes the answer is that the light flashes because it 
was programmed to flash, and there is no deeper answer to be had. 
People who ask those kinds of questions need to understand when 
they've been given the complete answer, even if it is less 
enlightening than they wanted.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Aug 31 03:01:41 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:01:41 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
 (devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <44F62843.2050804@hivemind.net>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060830130302.035ede48@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F60188.5080700@hivemind.net>	<p06240500c11bbb399cb4@[192.168.1.102]>
	<44F62843.2050804@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <p06240509c11be0073cc4@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:07 AM +0200 2006-08-31, Bretton Vine wrote:

>  (locally) it's been referred to as a "be strict in what you send, relaxed in
>  what you receive" approach but not everyone adheres to (or is aware of) this
>  way of looking at things and it seems antiquated to some.

It's called the Postel Principle, and some of us are old enough to 
remember when the term was first coined.  While there are cases where 
it is not always appropriate to apply the Postel Principle, there are 
still plenty of us around that firmly believe that using "safe 
defaults" is a better way to go.

>  I *know* the developers develop according to their needs, and needs change
>  with time and input. And the openness of the GNU approach allows anyone to
>  modify at will (provided they have the skill), and heck no-one likes
>  documenting stuff but someone has to do it.

The methods of open source development pre-date Richard Stallman and 
his GNU followers.  Some of us remember those days.

>  But many people will choose a Mailman solution on the basis of cost and
>  relative availability of help and support. Plus Mailman has largely
>  dominated what was previously a majordomo or listserv orientated world.

I think that Mailman has become the leading open-source mailing list 
management system for the small to moderate size lists, but we still 
have some issues with larger lists that preclude us from taking the 
complete title away from programs such as Listserv.

That said, there are multiple choices in this field and I think 
that's a good thing, because Mailman will not be a perfect fit for 
everyone, and probably won't even be a good fit for a significant 
number.  There's always room for improvement, and our biggest problem 
is that we've identified many different areas where we already 
recognize the room/desire/need for improvement and yet we still have 
a limited amount of time available to fix those things.

>  Just because a 'default option' seems sensible and obvious to implement from
>  a developer perspective doesn't mean you can avoid having to explain it.

That may be true, but in this case the answer is pretty simple -- 
it's safer that way.  No further explanation is required, or likely 
to be provided.

>  No matter whether you're a core developer, patch developer, documentation
>  person, or verbal user, people are going to use your product. It's either
>  going to be good, or outright crap. And even when it's the best solution
>  available, and all the right decisions have been made in implementation
>  design, users may choose something else because it's *more shiny*.

That's perfectly fine by me.  We don't require that everyone use our 
software.  Indeed, I would say that we probably don't want everyone 
to try to use our software.  We're relatively happy with the user 
community we've got, and we know that there are a lot of ways that we 
think that this software needs improvement.

We don't need (or want) to be all things to everyone.

>  And sometimes users may become irate at your implementation of a solution on
>  their behalf and decide they can do it themselves, only to repeat all the
>  same mistakes you made and end up at the same end result -- feeling like
>  fools but too embarrassed to return and ask for your help.

That's fine, too.  If they want to go off by themselves and learn 
their lessons the hard way, then that at least gets them out of our 
hair.

If they choose to come back and share their experiences with us, I'm 
happy to listen to what they've learned to see if there is anything 
we can take from their experience, so that the entire community can 
benefit.

>  In a commercial environment this is quite costly to both parties so avoiding
>  that situation leads to more successful/stable product iterations (not to
>  mention $$$)

We're not a commercial environment, and we've actually had pretty bad 
experiences with people/companies that are in commercial environments 
taking our software and making unapproved modifications to it, or 
providing the software to their customers but *not* providing 
adequate support to those customers.

I just recently wrote a FAQ entry on this subject -- see FAQ 1.32.

>  Ok, granted, no-one's specifically 'selling' anything here. That doesn't
>  negate responsibility for the default options though.

No, we're not selling anything here, but we are still obligated to 
create safe defaults for the options within our software.  Failure to 
create safe defaults would be negligent behaviour, and potentially 
legally actionable.

>                                                        It's insufficient to
>  give people an "option" to change something. Some need to know why/how/what.

Balance the need to know against the issue of legal actionability. 
Trust me, the latter will win every time.  Especially when the answer 
is as simple as "because it's safer that way".

>  I have lots of experience with non-list savoy people, from list-owners to
>  list-users. Few of them are inclined to actually /look/ for an answer. It's
>  much easier to ask someone else. And in many cases a sheep-like mentality
>  occurs where people do things a certain way because "that's just the way
>  it's done" or "things _may_ go wrong if we do it differently".

As one of the principal people in the community who has gone through 
the FAQ entries and tried to clean them up and correct them as much 
as possible, I also have plenty of experience with people who are not 
list-savvy.  I know all too well that the default action for most 
people is to ask others, as opposed to actually going to look for 
answers in the FAQ or in the archives.

A little searching through the archives looking at my typical 
responses to most posts would clearly demonstrate that.

>  Think of a lowest-common-denominator list user. What would you recommend as
>  an OS interface to them? osx or windows or linux or even dos?

None of the above.  I would recommend a rock.  Well, a pebble, since 
a rock would be large enough that they could throw it at something or 
hit something with it, and cause a fair amount of damage.  At least a 
pebble would be small enough to be less likely to cause damage if 
abused.

>                                                              Now apply the
>  same basic principle to a web-based list-administrative interface.

For the lowest common denominator?  None.  Even the simplest possible 
web interface would be too complex for them.

>                                        Seriously, what's the worst that can
>  happen -- someone learning from mistakes, something we do naturally?

Entire sites being blown off the 'net, because they're not able to 
keep up with the e-mail flood?  Entire businesses going bankrupt 
because they weren't able to do their regular work because of the 
e-mail flood?

Remember that you're talking to the guy who was personally blamed for 
taking down all Internet e-mail across the entire world when AOL went 
dark for nineteen hours in August of 1997, and I know for a fact that 
a number of businesses went bankrupt because of that outage and the 
resulting aftermath, and I personally received more than a few death 
threats as a result.

So, you're asking me what the worst possible case would be?

>                                                  But at the same time you
>  have a market that wants a one-size-fits-all solution. Catch-22.

Yup.  We do the best we can, and that's all we can do.

>  A mailing lists key function is to act as a list. Not as a spam filter. Sure
>  it's a useful extra, perhaps even pretty-bells-and-whistles useful. But does
>  it actually contribute anything to the core function, or add any value that
>  can not be achieved from within the mail system itself?

A mailing list is not useful if it is used as an amplifier for spam, 
so that more spam goes out than real messages.

>  If not, why is the default set to "on"?

You're asking me whether or not we should have all the software 
defaults set to their safest mode, when Windows machines default to 
being insecure and have an average life expectancy of about five 
minutes if left unsecured on the 'net?  Where you can start 
installing a machine and have the machine already be compromised and 
subverted to be part of a bot-net before you even complete the 
installation and download all the OS patches?

Excuse me?

>  Another school of thought evident in many .conf files I've seen is something
>  like the following:
>
>  # Uncomment the following line to enable $functionality. This setting is
>  # disabled by default because it is important you understand why it exists
>  # and actually turn it on purposefully (which is what we suggest you do)
>  # See http://..... for full explanation
>  #
>  # Functionality = 1

I don't see how this is any different from what we're already doing today.

Please elaborate.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Aug 31 03:07:25 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:07:25 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
In-Reply-To: <44F62BBB.4000501@hivemind.net>
References: <PC1760200608301622560703a99587d7@msapiro>
	<44F62BBB.4000501@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <p0624050ac11be5a88eb0@[10.0.1.210]>

At 2:22 AM +0200 2006-08-31, Bretton Vine wrote:

>  Aaaah, but that's the crux of the situation. I have read the documentation.
>  I have searched the FAQs. I have asked the list and I keep getting the same
>  answer: there is no obvious reason a {TO:listname,CC:thirdparty} post should
>  result in the "message has implicit destination" error.
>
>  However I am expected to provide one.

There is no answer we can give you.  The software does not work the 
way you have described.

The only two possible answers I can think of are:

1.  The user was intentionally lying to you.

2.  The user did not fully understand the question and the situation, 
and therefore gave you an inaccurate response.


Therefore, if you want to be able to give a complete and correct 
technical response, you must gather more information from the user, 
including incontrovertible proof of exactly what they sent to your 
server so that you can duplicate the described behaviour.

Until you can duplicate the described behaviour based on the 
information you have from the user, it will be impossible for you to 
give a complete and correct technical answer.

>  If I'm being a bit anal it's because I need to be quite sure of myself if
>  I'm going to suggest the problem exists between keyboard and chair ...

Just ask for more information.  You don't need to imply anything, 
just tell them that you're trying to test all the possible paths 
through the code, to understand how the system could have responded 
in the way it did.

If they are unwilling or unable to help, then you should tell your 
management that you do not believe it is possible for the code to 
behave in the manner described but that you do not have enough 
information to prove that, and then it's up to them to make a 
decision.

Making real-life decisions with incomplete information is something 
that human beings do every moment of their waking life, it shouldn't 
be too hard for them to do it again in this case.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From bretton at hivemind.net  Thu Aug 31 04:08:32 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 04:08:32 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
In-Reply-To: <p06240508c11bdae2083c@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060830130302.035ede48@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F60188.5080700@hivemind.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060830144510.036105d8@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F61D8C.1020806@hivemind.net>
	<p06240508c11bdae2083c@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <44F644A0.5000408@hivemind.net>

Brad Knowles said the following on 2006/08/31 02:37 AM:
> So, does my opinion count?

Of course it does. Credentials are useful, experience more so. Heck next
week we have a whole bunch of experts here to give opinions to the industry
(shameless plug for iweek)

> The person in question wouldn't happen to be named Andr?s Salamon

Nope, but he's a key figure on the network I look after and has been
involved in it various ways since inception and to this day.

> Last I had heard, Andr?s had left the day-to-day management work down in
> .ZA, and had gone on to establish one of the leading venture capital
> firms down there, but I haven't checked in with him lately, so maybe
> he's off doing something else now.

Oxford atm.

> The answer is that it's turned on by default because that's the safest
> choice.  Period.  End of discussion.

Fair enough. At least there is something to reference now instead of
"I don't know, give me 5 mins with google and I'll get back to you"
<grin>

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"For a smart material to be able to send out a more complex signal it needs
to be nonlinear. If you hit a tuning fork twice as hard it will ring twice
as loud but still at the same frequency. That's a linear response. If you
hit a person twice as hard they're unlikely just to shout twice as loud.
That property lets you learn more about the person than the tuning fork." -
Neil Gershenfeld, When Things Start to Think, 1999


From lstone19 at stonejongleux.com  Thu Aug 31 04:12:24 2006
From: lstone19 at stonejongleux.com (Larry Stone)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:12:24 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
In-Reply-To: <p0624050ac11be5a88eb0@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <C11BAFB8.270C2%lstone19@stonejongleux.com>

On 8/30/06 8:07 PM, Brad Knowles at brad at stop.mail-abuse.org wrote:

> At 2:22 AM +0200 2006-08-31, Bretton Vine wrote:
> 
>>  Aaaah, but that's the crux of the situation. I have read the documentation.
>>  I have searched the FAQs. I have asked the list and I keep getting the same
>>  answer: there is no obvious reason a {TO:listname,CC:thirdparty} post should
>>  result in the "message has implicit destination" error.
>> 
>>  However I am expected to provide one.
> 
> There is no answer we can give you.  The software does not work the
> way you have described.
> 
> The only two possible answers I can think of are:
> 
> 1.  The user was intentionally lying to you.
> 
> 2.  The user did not fully understand the question and the situation,
> and therefore gave you an inaccurate response.

Just a thought and I may be all wet here but is it possible the user is
sending to an alias for the listname, possibly an alternative hostname for
the machine, that mailman doesn't know is an acceptable alternative and
therefore considers it to an implicit destination?

For example, mailman expects lists.example.com but mail is sent to
list at foo.example.com which is the same host.

-- 
Larry Stone
lstone19 at stonejongleux.com
http://www.stonejongleux.com/




From bretton at hivemind.net  Thu Aug 31 04:18:30 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 04:18:30 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006083017553905933fca75d8@msapiro>
References: <PC17602006083017553905933fca75d8@msapiro>
Message-ID: <44F646F6.9000702@hivemind.net>

Mark Sapiro said the following on 2006/08/31 02:55 AM:
> It drove me crazy, because I knew there was
> a real explaination for every glitch, and I wanted to find it, but I
> think the 'poltergeist' explaination worked for many of the users.

Yeah, the "radial flux in the atmospheric pressure" excuse may work for most
users but not for my boss :-)

> Do you have an actual message?

Yes

> Where did this message come from?

A list-member, cc'd to non-list member (subsequently subbed)

> Is this a message captured from the admindb interface, received from the
> list after approval or sent to you after the fact?

Actually you've hit the nail on the head here. I didn't look at the headers
in the mailman interface and the headers of the received message only reveal
normal From: To: Cc: etc

> Or are you just talking about the message without actually having it in hand?

No I have it, I just didn't know what to look for when the error occurred,
and approved it. Given that this was a time-critical notification for local
infrastructure, and concerns were only voiced long after alternatives had
been explored the blame has to fall somewhere.

(which is ok if there is a *good* explanation and solution at hand)

> Here's my advice for the next time if there is one. Examine the actual
> message headers in the admindb interface and in addition to approving
> the message, check the box to forward a copy to yourself. It would
> have been really handy if you had done this with the original message,
> but of course you had no way to know you would want/need this
> information.

Exactly. Hopefully others will learn from this experience and it won't be a
wasted exercise and merely a brief annoyance.

> Also, you've probably already set require_explicit_destination off for
> the list so there won't be a next time.

Pretty much

> Hint - look at max_num_recipients before you get burned on that one too.

Set to 5 (default)

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"I had a linguistics professor who said that it's man's ability to use
language that makes him the dominant species on the planet. That may be. But
I think there's one other thing that separates us from animals. We aren't
afraid of vacuum cleaners." - Jef


From bretton at hivemind.net  Thu Aug 31 04:56:05 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 04:56:05 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
 (devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240509c11be0073cc4@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060830130302.035ede48@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F60188.5080700@hivemind.net>	<p06240500c11bbb399cb4@[192.168.1.102]>
	<44F62843.2050804@hivemind.net>
	<p06240509c11be0073cc4@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <44F64FC5.1060703@hivemind.net>

Brad Knowles said the following on 2006/08/31 03:01 AM:
> The methods of open source development pre-date Richard Stallman and his
> GNU followers.  Some of us remember those days.

And quite a few are still around to teach us who take the net etc for
granted which is a good thing.

> I think that Mailman has become the leading open-source mailing list
> management system for the small to moderate size lists, but we still
> have some issues with larger lists that preclude us from taking the
> complete title away from programs such as Listserv.

So far my experience has been wonderful with the product, good and bad with
the documentation, and rather difficult in terms of user-error, namely mine.

> That may be true, but in this case the answer is pretty simple -- it's
> safer that way.  No further explanation is required, or likely to be
> provided.

Then that's the answer I have. My job is to keep things running, and if they
break fix them fast or provide reasons/solutions. However it's hard
sometimes defending a choice in platform when some or all of the following
are insufficient:

 * because everyone's using it
 * because it's free [speech or beer]
 * I don't know! It worked yesterday

> That's perfectly fine by me.  We don't require that everyone use our
> software.  Indeed, I would say that we probably don't want everyone to
> try to use our software.  We're relatively happy with the user community
> we've got, and we know that there are a lot of ways that we think that
> this software needs improvement.

No offence intended, but this is a rather closed-off point of view. It's
completely valid yes, but leaves no room for organic growth. A view of "we
have enough users, we do this for our own reasons, we know we can improve
this and that but there's no urgency" actually shrinks a community in the end.

I'm not saying there's an obligation to use or prove your software (and
time/effort interacting with the user base) just that any project can become
bigger than the sum of its parts and developers should be aware of that.

I'll leave the philosophical analysis of that aside for now.

> That's fine, too.  If they want to go off by themselves and learn their
> lessons the hard way, then that at least gets them out of our hair.

Doesn't seem quite efficient to have people duplicating labour for no reason
other than stubbornness.

> We're not a commercial environment, and we've actually had pretty bad
> experiences with people/companies that are in commercial environments
> taking our software and making unapproved modifications to it, or
> providing the software to their customers but *not* providing adequate
> support to those customers.

Nor are we specifically a commercial list environment. The nature of our
income-generating business is such that lists have proven to be extremely
useful over the years and form the basis of in-house communication and
communication for the participating associations we manage.

However my point is that Mailman will still be used commercially. Which
creates expectations. You can't manage the expectations of others so it's a
difficult road to travel.

> No, we're not selling anything here, but we are still obligated to
> create safe defaults for the options within our software.  Failure to
> create safe defaults would be negligent behaviour, and potentially
> legally actionable.

I understand. But look at it from a point-of-view of say a prior majordomo
installation where the safe defaults are different defaults. Look at it from
the point-of-view of someone who knows the prior defaults and may be
confused by the change. Yes the new defaults are safe, but why?
(obvious answer: changing environment and needs)

> Balance the need to know against the issue of legal actionability. Trust
> me, the latter will win every time.  Especially when the answer is as
> simple as "because it's safer that way".

Aye, and balance a hierarchy of dependencies between organisations and
information dispersal (and pace thereof) and legal accountability becomes a
concern.

Change may be necessary, but not everyone wants it. In my current situation
we've discovered that the need to disperse information quickly and
accurately is more important than the possibility of a flood of spam. I sold
my employer a migration path in a particular direction and this filtered
down to clients but has had some unintended consequences along the way.

I think a fair analogy would be (as if speaking to a client):

 I'm sorry, we can't assist you as normal, we're busy upgrading our systems
 and did not anticipate this issue, please call again soon

Obviously there are situations you just can't do this in.

> For the lowest common denominator?  None.  Even the simplest possible
> web interface would be too complex for them.

Boy, that's harsh. ISOC-ZA had an open-day last year, setup some computers
and an internet link in an under-privileged area. Invited the local
community (young and old) to come see what the Internet was all about. Many
using computers for the first time. And they practically had to pull the
people away from PCs so others could get a chance too.

Didn't take long for someone presented with a browser and search engine to
get the swing of things. (And yet the irony is that there are middle-class
workers who have been using computers at work for some years who still 'just
don't get it')

>> Seriously, what's the worst that can happen 
> Entire sites being blown off the 'net, because they're not able to keep
> up with the e-mail flood?  Entire businesses going bankrupt because they
> weren't able to do their regular work because of the e-mail flood?

I've knocked out our system quite a few times (by accident or oversight) and
yes there's often hell to pay and some sleepless nights -- but we've yet to
find a user who takes the system down because they have a web-interface or
email-interface to the system so they can manage their own list.

It's like the parent who refuses to let their child near a pc in case they
break it (but secretly because they wouldn't know how to fix it if they did)
compared to the parent who gives a child an old keyboard to bang away on in
the early years. The latter somehow never seem to actually break things
beyond the point of being able to fix them. The former end up as luddites.

> You're asking me whether or not we should have all the software defaults
> set to their safest mode
<snip>
> Excuse me?

See Subject: (devils advocate) ;-)

>>  # Functionality = 1
> I don't see how this is any different from what we're already doing today.
> Please elaborate.

In alternate reality one, the safe defaults are automatically decided for
the user. In alternate reality two they are suggested but the user has to
enable them. Which reality informs the user more?

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

Tyler: Hitting bottom is not a weekend retreat, it's not a damn seminar.
Stop trying to control everything and just let go. Let go! - Fight Club


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Aug 31 05:36:25 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:36:25 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
 (devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <44F64FC5.1060703@hivemind.net>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060830130302.035ede48@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F60188.5080700@hivemind.net>	<p06240500c11bbb399cb4@[192.168.1.102]>
	<44F62843.2050804@hivemind.net>	<p06240509c11be0073cc4@[10.0.1.210]>
	<44F64FC5.1060703@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <p0624050dc11c03858e5e@[10.0.1.210]>

At 4:56 AM +0200 2006-08-31, Bretton Vine wrote:

>  So far my experience has been wonderful with the product, good and bad with
>  the documentation, and rather difficult in terms of user-error, namely mine.

I am of the opinion that all software sucks, but some sucks less than 
others.  IMO, Mailman sucks less than any other MLM I've seen.


Of course, amongst most open-source projects, documentation is a 
serious weak spot.  Those who are developers write code, not 
documentation.  And if they do write documentation, you frequently 
wish that they hadn't.  Those who are operational-types (like me) 
don't write code, and usually don't write documentation, and if they 
do write documentation you frequently wish that they hadn't.

The good documentation writers rarely seem to cross paths with any 
open source project I've seen.

It's a known serious weak spot within the Mailman project, and we'd 
love to be able to resolve this issue, but that means we need to get 
some people onboard that are good at writing documentation.  Any 
suggestions you may have in this area would be gratefully accepted.

>  No offence intended, but this is a rather closed-off point of view. It's
>  completely valid yes, but leaves no room for organic growth. A view of "we
>  have enough users, we do this for our own reasons, we know we can improve
>  this and that but there's no urgency" actually shrinks a community in the
>  end.

I can't say where things will end up.  I don't think I can even make 
much of a guess.  I can tell you that we're getting a large enough 
influx of users that it is difficult for us to keep up without doing 
anything more to actively draw in more users.

In that kind of high-growth environment, it's hard to justify doing 
anything that would actively draw in more users and would likely 
hamper other development efforts that we consider to be more 
important than maximum growth of the userbase in the shortest 
possible time.


My preference would be to have a more sustainable growth pattern over 
a longer period of time, based on a higher quality product that we've 
been able to develop and field, then let the growth take care of 
itself.

But that's just my personal view, and is not necessarily shared by anyone else.

>  I'm not saying there's an obligation to use or prove your software (and
>  time/effort interacting with the user base) just that any project can become
>  bigger than the sum of its parts and developers should be aware of that.

I think that the developers are well aware of this issue, especially 
since multiple other groups have taken the Mailman code and made 
unapproved changes to it, and then fielded that to their users -- but 
without providing adequate support for their modified versions and 
thus leaving us holding the bag they created.

>>  That's fine, too.  If they want to go off by themselves and learn their
>>  lessons the hard way, then that at least gets them out of our hair.
>
>  Doesn't seem quite efficient to have people duplicating labour for no reason
>  other than stubbornness.

Sometimes you can't stop them, no matter what you do.  IMO, when you 
discover that the kind of situation you've got with a particular 
person, then the best thing to do is to recommend that they go ahead 
and do whatever they want on their own systems and to report back to 
you regarding their success.

Otherwise, you're mud wrestling with a pig, which only gets you dirty 
and sweaty and annoys the pig.

>  However my point is that Mailman will still be used commercially.

True.  Like it or not, there's nothing we can do to stop them.

>                                                                     Which
>  creates expectations.

Also true.

>                         You can't manage the expectations of others so it's a
>  difficult road to travel.

Indeed.  We do the best we can through what documentation is 
available (including the FAQ), but there's little we can do beyond 
that.

>  I understand. But look at it from a point-of-view of say a prior majordomo
>  installation where the safe defaults are different defaults. Look at it from
>  the point-of-view of someone who knows the prior defaults and may be
>  confused by the change. Yes the new defaults are safe, but why?
>  (obvious answer: changing environment and needs)

Majordomo is different from Mailman, and I would not be surprised if 
certain features were present in one package and not in the other, or 
if certain defaults were set one way in one package and the opposite 
way in the other.

But if people don't understand that different software is frequently 
different, I'm not sure that there's much I can do to help them, and 
I'm not sure that there's much that anyone else can do to help them, 
either.

>>  For the lowest common denominator?  None.  Even the simplest possible
>>  web interface would be too complex for them.
>
>  Boy, that's harsh.

Do you want a complete and total moron to have his finger on the 
nuclear button, and capable of blowing up the entire planet many 
times over?

Oh, waitaminnit, we already have that situation....

>  I've knocked out our system quite a few times (by accident or oversight) and
>  yes there's often hell to pay and some sleepless nights -- but we've yet to
>  find a user who takes the system down because they have a web-interface or
>  email-interface to the system so they can manage their own list.

The number of things that a list moderator or list admin can do 
through the web are limited, and the danger is reduced.  But if/when 
we make all site administration functions available through the web, 
the danger will be quite a bit higher.

Even list admins can subscribe a bunch of other addresses to their 
lists, and create loops with their subscriptions.  It only takes one 
loop that causes every message coming in to the list to be duplicated 
and then re-sent back to the same list (and duplicated again, ad 
nauseum), to bring down the whole system.

If you've got a large system (e.g., something that can generate 
millions of mail messages per day), it's easy enough to make a 
mistake that could take down a lot of other systems around the world 
and not just your own.


These are powerful tools we're talking about here, and it's easy to 
do things to wind up accidentally shooting yourself in the foot -- or 
maybe accidentally shooting your neighbor in the head.

With powerful tools, you also need powerful safeguards.

>  In alternate reality one, the safe defaults are automatically decided for
>  the user. In alternate reality two they are suggested but the user has to
>  enable them. Which reality informs the user more?

Right, but precisely who is our "user", or perhaps I should say "customer"?

I submit that *our* customer is the site admin, and this is precisely 
the kind of thing we offer to them.  The customer(s) of the site 
admin would be the list admin(s), and the customer(s) of the list 
admin(s) would be the list moderator(s) and the list recipient(s).

So, it's up to the site admin(s) to look through the defaults we've 
provided to them and decide which ones they want to change for their 
customers, and it's up to the list admin(s) to look through the 
defaults they're given by the site admin(s) and decide which ones 
that they want to change for their customers.


I submit we've done our job for our customers, and it's up to them to 
do their job for their customers, and so on.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From bretton at hivemind.net  Thu Aug 31 09:06:17 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:06:17 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
 (devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p0624050dc11c03858e5e@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060830130302.035ede48@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F60188.5080700@hivemind.net>	<p06240500c11bbb399cb4@[192.168.1.102]>
	<44F62843.2050804@hivemind.net>	<p06240509c11be0073cc4@[10.0.1.210]>
	<44F64FC5.1060703@hivemind.net>
	<p0624050dc11c03858e5e@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <44F68A69.1030003@hivemind.net>

Brad Knowles said the following on 2006/08/31 05:36 AM:
> It's a known serious weak spot within the Mailman project, and we'd love
> to be able to resolve this issue, but that means we need to get some
> people onboard that are good at writing documentation.  Any suggestions
> you may have in this area would be gratefully accepted.

Well a lot has been generated in this discussion already, now it's just a
case of summarising it and having someone edit. I like writing, and would
happily contribute but I can drag on a bit so need a good editor :-P

> My preference would be to have a more sustainable growth pattern over a
> longer period of time, based on a higher quality product that we've been
> able to develop and field, then let the growth take care of itself.

Sounds like a good plan. In a world of build-it, grow-it, sell-it in 24
hours it's useful to have the voice of reason prevail.

> I think that the developers are well aware of this issue, especially
> since multiple other groups have taken the Mailman code and made
> unapproved changes to it, and then fielded that to their users -- but
> without providing adequate support for their modified versions and thus
> leaving us holding the bag they created.

Yes, my initial experience (relating to virtual domains on a single
installation) using third party patches took a lot of time to reach the
conclusion that was already summarised as:

"it's possible, but better to have multiple separate installations instead"

There wasn't a very solid connection between the source, the documentation
and patches. Lots of information, but no index (metaphorically). Lots of
pointers and usefool tools for searching, but no real "start here to do it
differently to the default" approach. In turn I had to settle on an
installation method, write my own HOWTO specific to our system and then
tweak it over time to remove what was unnecessary and add in what I missed
conceptually first time around. A useful exercise, but time-consuming.

> Indeed.  We do the best we can through what documentation is available
> (including the FAQ), but there's little we can do beyond that.

I disagree, I've found this discussion quite informative and sure others
have as well. What I mean is you can 'do more' than just code or write up
some documentation. Merely engaging the user base one-on-one adds something
more to the experience of learning.

After all, for most people it's more like this:

  user <--> support desk <--> engineer <--> developer

with lots of fancy but useless communication methods in between. I think
most people are eager to learn, just afraid of looking stupid by raising a
hand for a question (especially a frequently asked one)

> It only takes one
> loop that causes every message coming in to the list to be duplicated
> and then re-sent back to the same list (and duplicated again, ad
> nauseum), to bring down the whole system.

I know. And embarrassing when you're the last to find out <chuckles>
I understand Mailman is superior to Majordomo in this respect, or is this
configuration dependant?

> These are powerful tools we're talking about here, and it's easy to do
> things to wind up accidentally shooting yourself in the foot -- or maybe
> accidentally shooting your neighbor in the head.
> With powerful tools, you also need powerful safeguards.

No disagreement. But safeguards are merely insurance when you have proper
education in how to use tools no? As opposed to a necessity due to gaps in
the knowledge chain.
(i.e. the safety line is not intended to be used as a hand rail)

> So, it's up to the site admin(s) to look through the defaults we've
> provided to them and decide which ones they want to change for their
> customers, and it's up to the list admin(s) to look through the defaults
> they're given by the site admin(s) and decide which ones that they want
> to change for their customers.

Thanks, you've just illustrated a point I often try to make. Ultimately the
proverbial 'you' drives the computer. You're responsible for what it does
and doesn't do. Mistakes happen, but so too does random knowledge ... you
know like you pick up a new short-cut you didn't know by watching someone
else do it fist.

Actually, if you're in an environment with lots of people interaction,
showing them a short-cut is like a good dead of the day, and in terms of
user-interface spreads nicely. Trouble is all the arcane knowledge is locked
up in the heads of people who spend more time in front of a pc than people :-)

> I submit we've done our job for our customers, and it's up to them to do
> their job for their customers, and so on.

Ok, sounds fair. I'm a customer. I want to understand why things are done a
certain way. I want to know why they're no done differently, and I'll be
stubborn and even try it myself until it stops working. I'm not about to
embark on learning Python just to understand Mailman (although it would be a
useful exercise in a broader sense) but I do wish documentation had the same
level of diligence and peer-review that the code gets (not specifically
mailman -- software in general)

I can point my users to documentation and URLs but I can't make them read :-)
-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

If you're not failing every now and again, it's a sign you're not doing
anything very innovative. - W. Allen


From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Aug 31 09:52:07 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:52:07 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
 (devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <44F68A69.1030003@hivemind.net>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060830130302.035ede48@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F60188.5080700@hivemind.net>	<p06240500c11bbb399cb4@[192.168.1.102]>
	<44F62843.2050804@hivemind.net>	<p06240509c11be0073cc4@[10.0.1.210]>
	<44F64FC5.1060703@hivemind.net>	<p0624050dc11c03858e5e@[10.0.1.210]>
	<44F68A69.1030003@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <p06240500c11c420e166e@[10.0.1.210]>

At 9:06 AM +0200 2006-08-31, Bretton Vine wrote:

>  Well a lot has been generated in this discussion already, now it's just a
>  case of summarising it and having someone edit. I like writing, and would
>  happily contribute but I can drag on a bit so need a good editor :-P

Yeah, I have that problem too.  That's why what was supposed to be a 
one-off article on spam-fighting for the LOPSA.org website has turned 
into a six-part series.  I put in everything I could think of, and it 
was just too damn bloody long to make a single post.

>  There wasn't a very solid connection between the source, the documentation
>  and patches. Lots of information, but no index (metaphorically). Lots of
>  pointers and usefool tools for searching, but no real "start here to do it
>  differently to the default" approach.

The problem is that we have our suggested method for handling virtual 
domains, but we cannot possibly know all the different other methods 
that might be out there that people might want to use, and how they 
might want to apply (or mis-apply) those methods to Mailman.  So, 
it's kind of hard for us to develop a guide to answer all those 
possible questions.

We can tell you how it is done in the current code, and we can give 
you pointers to alternative methods, but I don't see how we can 
realistically be expected to go beyond that.

>  I understand Mailman is superior to Majordomo in this respect, or is this
>  configuration dependant?

I think that Mailman is at least somewhat more resistant to mail 
loops, but all bets are off when messages are passing through 
gateways from Internet e-mail to proprietary internal e-mail systems, 
and then possibly going back out again.  Most gateway systems like 
that will strip off all the "ugly" additional header information that 
we need in order to be able to do our job of trying to avoid loops, 
etc....

>  No disagreement. But safeguards are merely insurance when you have proper
>  education in how to use tools no? As opposed to a necessity due to gaps in
>  the knowledge chain.
>  (i.e. the safety line is not intended to be used as a hand rail)

No, the safety line is not intended to be used as a hand rail, but if 
you're installing something without any prior specific knowledge of 
the groups that will be using it, but you might have a reasonable 
expectation that some of them might use whatever you install as a 
handrail regardless of whether or not you intended for them to do 
that, then what do you choose to install?

Do you install a safety line and hope that all the users are going to 
be smart enough to not attempt to use it as a handrail?  Or do you go 
ahead and install a handrail under the assumption that some users are 
going to be stupid/ignorant enough to use it as a handrail 
regardless, despite all possible warning signs that you might put up?

If you know you have some users that would prefer not to have a 
safety line or handrail at all, and others who would need the 
handrail, what do you install?


IMO, the only sane choice is to go ahead and install a handrail by 
default, but make it easy for the people operating the ride to easily 
switch out for a safety line or nothing at all, depending on their 
increased knowledge of their userbase.

>  Actually, if you're in an environment with lots of people interaction,
>  showing them a short-cut is like a good dead of the day, and in terms of
>  user-interface spreads nicely. Trouble is all the arcane knowledge is locked
>  up in the heads of people who spend more time in front of a pc than 
>people :-)

No "good dead" ever goes unpunished.  ;)

>  Ok, sounds fair. I'm a customer. I want to understand why things are done a
>  certain way. I want to know why they're no done differently, and I'll be
>  stubborn and even try it myself until it stops working.

Which gets us back to the answer that the default is safer this way, 
and if you want to change it then you are given the option of doing 
so.

If you want to further beat your head against that brick wall, you're 
welcome to do so.  Just keep in mind that insanity is defined as 
doing the same action repeatedly while expecting different results.

>                                                           I'm not about to
>  embark on learning Python just to understand Mailman (although it would be a
>  useful exercise in a broader sense) but I do wish documentation had the same
>  level of diligence and peer-review that the code gets (not specifically
>  mailman -- software in general)

In this case, there's not much to improve with regards to the 
documentation.  There's just not much to document.

There are lots of other areas where the documentation is known to be 
horribly weak, nonexistent, or wrong, and we would welcome any 
assistance from anyone who wants to help us fix that.  But this is 
not one of those areas.

>  I can point my users to documentation and URLs but I can't make them read :-)

No, but you should be able to read, and if they are not able to do so 
then you should be able to read it to them.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Aug 31 13:51:17 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:51:17 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] working on an insanely huge moderation request
 list
In-Reply-To: <20060830165802.5f5c41c7.attila@kinali.ch>
References: <20060830143731.4e6e9768.attila@kinali.ch>
	<6fbe3da00608300720n2347ad94nb8adf55c3bf3a24d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060830165802.5f5c41c7.attila@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <17654.52533.879703.204902@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Attila Kinali writes:

 > > Lastly, you could unpack each queue file in turn and simply rm the
 > > ones you don't want to approve, although I would imagine this to be
 > > quite a time-consuming process.
 > 
 > This is about what i want to achieve.
 > Could you give me a pointer on how to do this?

cd to Mailman's home, run "bin/show_qfiles dir_of_queue_in_question/*"

Obviously you're going to want to pipe that to something like less to
get a look at what you've got.  Once you've grokked that, some
variation on the theme bin/show_files | formail -s | procmail should
work to weed out the 7999 obvious losers.

Note that you need to specify the *files* in the usual way for the
command line, not the list or other Mailman abstraction.  This has two
implications.  (1) Use ls | xargs, not a shell wildcard unless you've
got one heck of a shell.  (2) You can just mv all the files somewhere
convenient and run bin/show_qfiles on them (I'm pretty sure).

Untested, YMMV, if it breaks you get to keep both pieces, etc.
Nonetheless, HTH. :-)

Steve



From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Aug 31 13:36:53 2006
From: stephen at xemacs.org (stephen at xemacs.org)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:36:53 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
 (devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240509c11be0073cc4@[10.0.1.210]>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060830130302.035ede48@crimson-dragon.com>
	<44F60188.5080700@hivemind.net>
	<p06240500c11bbb399cb4@[192.168.1.102]>
	<44F62843.2050804@hivemind.net>
	<p06240509c11be0073cc4@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <17654.51669.252212.234538@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brad Knowles writes:
 > At 2:07 AM +0200 2006-08-31, Bretton Vine wrote:
 > 
 > >  (locally) it's been referred to as a "be strict in what you send, relaxed in
 > >  what you receive" approach but not everyone adheres to (or is aware of) this
 > >  way of looking at things and it seems antiquated to some.
 > 
 > It's called the Postel Principle, and some of us are old enough to 
 > remember when the term was first coined.  While there are cases where 
 > it is not always appropriate to apply the Postel Principle, there are 
 > still plenty of us around that firmly believe that using "safe 
 > defaults" is a better way to go.

IMHO, it's the *same way to go.*  AIUI (I seem to be missing a post or
two) Mailman accepted the mail, Mailman did not drop it on the floor,
Mailman *could* have sent it---but the Postel Principle doesn't imply
that it should have done so.  We have good reason (by default, which
default doesn't apply to Bretton's shop, it seems) to believe that
that post should be looked at (strictly ;-) by a human before sending.


Steve




From rob at rob-robson.com  Thu Aug 31 15:08:14 2006
From: rob at rob-robson.com (Rob Robson)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:08:14 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Need install help
Message-ID: <44F6A6FE.19826.3188D8@rob.rob-robson.com>

Need professional help finishing the installation of Mailman on my Fedora Core 5 server.

I have completed the install steps up to chapter 6 with no errors.  Also have Postfix installed and working.

--
Rob Robson
Chillicothe, Ohio
PGP (See Headers)
http://www.rob-robson.com



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug 31 17:25:42 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:25:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] working on an insanely huge moderation
	requestlist
In-Reply-To: <17654.52533.879703.204902@tleeps19.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <PC17602006083108254203759ce677e1@msapiro>

<stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
>
>cd to Mailman's home, run "bin/show_qfiles dir_of_queue_in_question/*"


Actually, in this case it would be

bin/show_qfiles data/heldmsg*

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug 31 17:55:00 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:55:00 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
In-Reply-To: <C11BAFB8.270C2%lstone19@stonejongleux.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006083108550004069ce677d6@msapiro>

Larry Stone wrote:
>
>Just a thought and I may be all wet here but is it possible the user is
>sending to an alias for the listname, possibly an alternative hostname for
>the machine, that mailman doesn't know is an acceptable alternative and
>therefore considers it to an implicit destination?
>
>For example, mailman expects lists.example.com but mail is sent to
>list at foo.example.com which is the same host.


Mailman expects to find listname at host_name (host_name is the list
attribute) or something that matches acceptable_aliases in a To:, Cc:,
Resent-To: or Resent-Cc: header in the message.

For historical reasons Mailman also accepts listname at anydomain, so the
difference between list at lists.example.com, list at foo.example.com or 
list at example.com wouldn't be the explaination here.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug 31 18:04:47 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:04:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit destination"
In-Reply-To: <44F646F6.9000702@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <PC1760200608310904470406d6ef3985@msapiro>

Bretton Vine wrote:

>Mark Sapiro said the following on 2006/08/31 02:55 AM:
>
>> Do you have an actual message?
>
>Yes
>
>> Where did this message come from?
>
>A list-member, cc'd to non-list member (subsequently subbed)


It occurred to me that if the list has archives, the raw message as
sent to the list members will be in
archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox. This message will not be
the exact message received by Mailman and held for implict destination
because Mailman does manipulate headers a bit, but as long as the list
is not fully personalized, the To: and Cc: headers should be intact.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From brad at stop.mail-abuse.org  Thu Aug 31 18:02:47 2006
From: brad at stop.mail-abuse.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:02:47 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] working on an insanely huge moderation
 requestlist
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006083108254203759ce677e1@msapiro>
References: <PC17602006083108254203759ce677e1@msapiro>
Message-ID: <p06240505c11cb853ce4f@[10.0.1.210]>

At 8:25 AM -0700 2006-08-31, Mark Sapiro quoted <stephen at xemacs.org>:

>>  cd to Mailman's home, run "bin/show_qfiles dir_of_queue_in_question/*"
>
>  Actually, in this case it would be
>
>  bin/show_qfiles data/heldmsg*

To be pedantic, if the moderation queue is that large, then wildcard 
expansion on the command-line is not likely to work correctly. 
Therefore, you'd need to use a find piped to xargs in order to make 
sure that you can fully process all the appropriate files in question.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.


From jwblist3 at olympus.net  Thu Aug 31 18:58:53 2006
From: jwblist3 at olympus.net (John W. Baxter)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:58:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240509c11be0073cc4@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <C11C635D.E5FC%jwblist3@olympus.net>

On 8/30/06 6:01 PM, "Brad Knowles" <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:

> The methods of open source development pre-date Richard Stallman and
> his GNU followers.  Some of us remember those days.

For example, SHARE from the 1950s.  At one point, MITs 704 (or 709 or 7090
by then) data center posted a notice which, paraphrased from memory, said
"We have SOS (SHARE Operating System) and will attempt to run it on request.
We won't be responsible for failures of SOS."

By the way, the explanation of the option in the administrator interface
seems reasonably clear to me (as a Mailman "customer" not developer).
However, I doubt that there are many new list administrators who look there
when setting up a list.

And, unfortunately, were I preparing a list of options for a "You really
ought to look at these options and check that they are set appropriately"
paragraph, I probably wouldn't include this one.  There are so many which
are more important for such a thing.

  --John




From scott.gauvin at ips.invensys.com  Thu Aug 31 19:00:55 2006
From: scott.gauvin at ips.invensys.com (Gauvin, Scott)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:00:55 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Additional Tables
Message-ID: <78B0D11D61F1414EB43F5AF8358979852EA10F@USFOXSRVXCH233.ipscorp.invensys.com>

Is there a way to add additional fields for the subscribers?  I would
like to also have the subscribers include their address and phone
numbers.  Is there a way to add these fields?

 



From jwblist3 at olympus.net  Thu Aug 31 19:06:53 2006
From: jwblist3 at olympus.net (John W. Baxter)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:06:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <p06240509c11be0073cc4@[10.0.1.210]>
Message-ID: <C11C653D.E5FF%jwblist3@olympus.net>

On 8/30/06 6:01 PM, "Brad Knowles" <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> wrote:

> We're not a commercial environment, and we've actually had pretty bad
> experiences with people/companies that are in commercial environments
> taking our software and making unapproved modifications to it, or
> providing the software to their customers but *not* providing
> adequate support to those customers.

"unapproved" may be a bit strong.  Perhaps "un-vetted" would be closer?

But the idea is right on.  When I see a thread about running Mailman on
CPanel or Plesk or Mac OS X Server, I ignore the thread (and I run Mac OS X
on my desktop).

> 
> I just recently wrote a FAQ entry on this subject -- see FAQ 1.32.

Quite nicely done!

  --John




From bretton at hivemind.net  Thu Aug 31 19:08:22 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:08:22 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <C11C635D.E5FC%jwblist3@olympus.net>
References: <C11C635D.E5FC%jwblist3@olympus.net>
Message-ID: <44F71786.2030905@hivemind.net>

John W. Baxter said the following on 2006/08/31 06:58 PM:
> And, unfortunately, were I preparing a list of options for a "You really
> ought to look at these options and check that they are set appropriately"
> paragraph, I probably wouldn't include this one.  There are so many which
> are more important for such a thing.

Perhaps a list of "you /really/ should set these settings to X" would be
useful to people short on time :-) Of course you could just bundle the
product that way in the first place but where's the fun in that?

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"I think that's how Chicago got started. A bunch of people in New York said,
'Gee, I'm enjoying the crime and the poverty, but it just isn't cold enough.
Let's go west.'" - Richard Jeni


From tomnaugh at gmail.com  Thu Aug 31 19:13:33 2006
From: tomnaugh at gmail.com (Tom Kavanaugh)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:13:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View Subscriber list format
Message-ID: <98a90c220608311013k1972c218t6dcb2c688971546f@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Currently "View subscribers list" displays members in the following format:
first.last at my.domain.com

Is it possible to change the format to:
first.last at my.domain.com

Thanks
Tom


From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug 31 19:19:37 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:19:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Additional Tables
In-Reply-To: <78B0D11D61F1414EB43F5AF8358979852EA10F@USFOXSRVXCH233.ipscorp.invensys.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006083110193706566e1c7a35@msapiro>

Gauvin, Scott wrote:

>Is there a way to add additional fields for the subscribers?  I would
>like to also have the subscribers include their address and phone
>numbers.  Is there a way to add these fields?


The only way without hacking Mailman code is to include this info as
part of the real name.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From msapiro at value.net  Thu Aug 31 19:27:08 2006
From: msapiro at value.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:27:08 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View Subscriber list format
In-Reply-To: <98a90c220608311013k1972c218t6dcb2c688971546f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC17602006083110270805315071e57b@msapiro>

Tom Kavanaugh wrote:
>
>Currently "View subscribers list" displays members in the following format:
>first.last at my.domain.com
>
>Is it possible to change the format to:
>first.last at my.domain.com


in the list admin intervace set Privacy options...->Subscription
rules->obscure_addresses to No.

This will display the email address with '@' instead of ' at '. The
'local part' of the address will be unchanged. If it is of form
first.last, it will be shown that way, but if it is of some other
form, it will be shown as whatever it is.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



From dragon at crimson-dragon.com  Thu Aug 31 19:44:24 2006
From: dragon at crimson-dragon.com (Dragon)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:44:24 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <44F71786.2030905@hivemind.net>
References: <C11C635D.E5FC%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<44F71786.2030905@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060831102919.0632dfa0@crimson-dragon.com>

Bretton Vine sent the message below at 10:08 8/31/2006:
>John W. Baxter said the following on 2006/08/31 06:58 PM:
> > And, unfortunately, were I preparing a list of options for a "You really
> > ought to look at these options and check that they are set appropriately"
> > paragraph, I probably wouldn't include this one.  There are so many which
> > are more important for such a thing.
>
>Perhaps a list of "you /really/ should set these settings to X" would be
>useful to people short on time :-) Of course you could just bundle the
>product that way in the first place but where's the fun in that?
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

That is what the Defaults.py file is for.

The defaults as shipped were chosen by the developers. We should 
assume that they were chosen for good, logical reasons that apply to 
the majority of installations.

But if you don't like the defaults or have a reason to choose a 
different setting, you can change them at your own risk either 
through configuring each list or by overriding the setting in mm_cfg.py

Open source projects are never going to have documentation to the 
standard you want. Unless you or somebody else is willing to take on 
that large project, continuing to harp on the subject is only going 
to serve to annoy people.

The fact that this software is made available to the community free 
of charge is a gift to the community. The fact that people like Brad 
and Mark and others are willing to expend large amounts of their time 
responding to queries here should be taken as what it is, another 
gift to the community. I think they have gone above and beyond the 
call of duty in this discussion and I am amazed at the restraint they 
have shown.

Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From srb at umich.edu  Thu Aug 31 19:55:34 2006
From: srb at umich.edu (Steve Burling)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:55:34 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
 implicit	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <44F71786.2030905@hivemind.net>
References: <C11C635D.E5FC%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<44F71786.2030905@hivemind.net>
Message-ID: <25DB89FB2DB1CFAAF1AB8959@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>

--On August 31, 2006 7:08:22 PM +0200 Bretton Vine <bretton at hivemind.net> 
wrote:

> Perhaps a list of "you /really/ should set these settings to X" would be
> useful to people short on time :-) Of course you could just bundle the
> product that way in the first place but where's the fun in that?

To which I reply:

Could we maybe leave this poor dead horse to rest in peace?

Apparently, many of the posters to this list believe (with some 
justification, imho) that it should take explicit action to undo safe 
defaults, rather than requiring explicit action to set safe values.  You 
disagree.  You've made that abundantly clear.  Fine.  We believe that you 
disagree.

But based on my (rather more than I care to contemplate) years in this 
business, I think you're wrong.

-- 
Steve Burling                                    <mailto:srb at umich.edu>
University of Michigan, ICPSR                    Voice: +1 734 615.3779
330 Packard Street                               FAX:   +1 734 647.8700
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-2910


From bretton at hivemind.net  Thu Aug 31 20:06:56 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:06:56 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060831102919.0632dfa0@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <C11C635D.E5FC%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<44F71786.2030905@hivemind.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060831102919.0632dfa0@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <44F72540.6030904@hivemind.net>

Dragon said the following on 2006/08/31 07:44 PM:
> But if you don't like the defaults or have a reason to choose a
> different setting, you can change them at your own risk either through
> configuring each list or by overriding the setting in mm_cfg.py

I'm not criticising, and I'm more than willing to put in some effort. What
useful settings apply? The default 'legacy' antispam measures are merely an
example (for example).

> Open source projects are never going to have documentation to the
> standard you want. Unless you or somebody else is willing to take on
> that large project, continuing to harp on the subject is only going to
> serve to annoy people.

That's the trouble with email - tone is lost, along with intention ;-)

> I think they have gone above and beyond the call of
> duty in this discussion and I am amazed at the restraint they have shown.

The teacher learns more from the student than the student learns from the
teacher. It would be wise not to forget that. <big grin>

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"It is important that students bring a certain ragamuffin, barefoot,
irreverence to their studies; they are not here to worship what is known,
but to question it." - Jacob Chanowski


From bretton at hivemind.net  Thu Aug 31 20:25:58 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:25:58 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has implicit
 destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060831102919.0632dfa0@crimson-dragon.com>
References: <C11C635D.E5FC%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<44F71786.2030905@hivemind.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20060831102919.0632dfa0@crimson-dragon.com>
Message-ID: <44F729B6.7000507@hivemind.net>

Dragon said the following on 2006/08/31 07:44 PM:
> The fact that people like Brad and Mark and others are willing to expend
> large amounts of their time responding to queries here should be taken as
> what it is, another gift to the community. I think they have gone above
and beyond the call of
> duty in this discussion and I am amazed at the restraint they have shown.

(on a more serious note)

I view it differently. I have had great feedback and I highly doubt either
of the parties mentioned viewed a response as a "restraining, difficult
exercise". I /really/ use lists to their full advantage and with some in
particular have never felt my input or response was an exercise in patience
or restraint. It's a labour of love. You do it because it's what you do.

That's not to say I don't appreciate a response (some time after the fact)
with another avenue to explore (thanks Mark) but compare the difference
between "you're harping on about nothing" to "have you tried this?". The
latter (in hindsight) is blindingly obvious -- and yet no-one else let their
sub-conscious ponder the problem a while longer.

Lists are communities. And community isn't about 'gifts' from the elders or
sticking to sensible rules. It's about invigorating the elders so they feel
like children in a toy-store again.
(and no I'm not being ageist or condescending or merely rebellious here)

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"This is a test designed to provoke an emotional response: The water supply
IS tainted"


From bretton at hivemind.net  Thu Aug 31 20:44:03 2006
From: bretton at hivemind.net (Bretton Vine)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:44:03 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] query re "message has
 implicit	destination"(devils advocate!)
In-Reply-To: <25DB89FB2DB1CFAAF1AB8959@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>
References: <C11C635D.E5FC%jwblist3@olympus.net>	<44F71786.2030905@hivemind.net>
	<25DB89FB2DB1CFAAF1AB8959@srb.icpsr.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <44F72DF3.4060706@hivemind.net>

Steve Burling said the following on 2006/08/31 07:55 PM:
> Could we maybe leave this poor dead horse to rest in peace?

Only if I get a last word in edgewise :-)

> Apparently, many of the posters to this list believe (with some 
> justification, imho) that it should take explicit action to undo safe 
> defaults, rather than requiring explicit action to set safe values.  You 
> disagree.  You've made that abundantly clear.  Fine.  We believe that you 
> disagree.

Then you've misunderstood me. I don't disagree, and since turning the
setting off have seen an immediate *and* significant increase in the amount
of spam getting to open lists which answers a question I raised earlier.

The point I was illustrating is that if you have to justify the rationale
behind a default setting to a third-party-decision-maker -- what is the most
appropriate and concise response?

> But based on my (rather more than I care to contemplate) years in this 
> business, I think you're wrong.

I may well be. However I dispute the reasoning that things are done a
certain way 'just because that's the way they're done'. This thread has
resulted in far more knowledge than I need convey on to my boss/clients, but
it has been immensely useful too. Both in terms of my learning, and
proposing alternate perspectives. Just because I present a point-of-view
doesn't mean I agree with it. Nor does it invalidate it.

I've heard arguments from developers critical of third parties modifying the
software in a particular way and then failing to support it accordingly.
I've heard arguments that the developers know what's best. I've questioned
whether these approaches are based on developer-need, user-input or pure
reasoning. I don't believe I've done anything a curious individual could be
faulted for, nor do I see any evidence that people willing to take a
moment's pause for a reasoned response reacting uncomfortably or being
unwilling to share their experience or philosophy-of-approach.

In closing, I needed a simple answer. I couldn't find one myself, so I
asked. In return I learned far more than I requested, and developed an
immediate respect for those who understood where I was coming from.
In time perhaps those who endured irritation will understand. :-)

-- 
| Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | bretton at hivemind.net |
| GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc  |

"All progress is based upon a universal innate desire on the part of every
organism to live beyond its income." ? Samuel Butler (1835-1902),British writer.


From tomnaugh at gmail.com  Thu Aug 31 23:36:58 2006
From: tomnaugh at gmail.com (Tom Kavanaugh)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:36:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] View Subscriber list format
In-Reply-To: <PC17602006083110270805315071e57b@msapiro>
References: <98a90c220608311013k1972c218t6dcb2c688971546f@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC17602006083110270805315071e57b@msapiro>
Message-ID: <98a90c220608311436i14e1cd7dmbbb0fa6bf7c5eb21@mail.gmail.com>

That workes!
Thanks folks.

On 8/31/06, Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> wrote:
>
> Tom Kavanaugh wrote:
> >
> >Currently "View subscribers list" displays members in the following
> format:
> >first.last at my.domain.com
> >
> >Is it possible to change the format to:
> >first.last at my.domain.com
>
>
> in the list admin intervace set Privacy options...->Subscription
> rules->obscure_addresses to No.
>
> This will display the email address with '@' instead of ' at '. The
> 'local part' of the address will be unchanged. If it is of form
> first.last, it will be shown that way, but if it is of some other
> form, it will be shown as whatever it is.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>       The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>