Apache/1.3.12 Server at www.alb-net.com Port 80

-- 




From claw at cp.net  Thu Jun 29 03:23:07 2000
From: claw at cp.net (J C Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:23:07 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Extremely High Membership lists 
In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach  
   of "Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:46:17 MST."  
References: <006a01bfe158$6efe6280$02000003@kneel>   
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:46:17 -0700 
Chuq Von Rospach  wrote:

> At 7:27 PM -0400 6/28/00, Neil Cooler wrote:
>> I haven't had anyone tell me that mailman is NOT the proper list
>> manager for this application yet, so I am still working towards
>> my 11:00 AM tomorrow deadline to have mailman working and in
>> production with several smaller internal lists.

> I made the decision not to go production until Barry finished B3.

I've stuck with v1.1 in production systems here.

I also have significant problems with the new moderation interface
which has removed significant functionality by showing only an
excerpted/truncated version of the held message in a TEXTAREA rather
than the entire message.  The old format of showing the entire
message allowed me as list moderator:

  a) To know exactly what I was approving, and thus not miss
  something untoward toward the end of a message.

  b) To copy off the held message locally, for local editing and
  resubmitting, say with editorial/moderation comments.

The new moderation interface prevents both those abilities, and is
not configurable to return to the old format.

Bad stuff.  

Barry: If I submit a patch to make this a configurable option, what
the chance of getting this in before release (presuming decent
code)?  I can't use 2.x at all without being able to see the entire
message in the moderation interface.

> Barry won't do that until this re-send problem is resolved. If
> your deadline is tomorrow, in your position, I'd call in sick and
> wait for B3.....

Not a bad choice if he could make it.

That said, he has the opportunity to start out slow (internal lists
et al).  v1.1 is nto a bad choice for that _IF_ the timing of when
he has to import more populous lists (say over 5,000 members) can be
held off for a little while.

-- 
J C Lawrence                              Internet: claw at kanga.nu
----------(*)                            Internet: coder at kanga.nu
...Honorary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...



From claw at cp.net  Thu Jun 29 03:35:15 2000
From: claw at cp.net (J C Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:35:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Extremely High Membership lists 
In-Reply-To: Message from J C Lawrence  
   of "Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:23:07 MST."
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:23:07 -0700 
J C Lawrence  wrote:

> I also have significant problems with the new moderation interface
> which has removed significant functionality by showing only an
> excerpted/truncated version of the held message in a TEXTAREA
> rather than the entire message.  The old format of showing the
> entire message allowed me as list moderator:

>   a) To know exactly what I was approving, and thus not miss
> something untoward toward the end of a message.

>   b) To copy off the held message locally, for local editing and
> resubmitting, say with editorial/moderation comments.

> The new moderation interface prevents both those abilities, and is
> not configurable to return to the old format.

> Bad stuff.

> Barry: If I submit a patch to make this a configurable option,
> what the chance of getting this in before release (presuming
> decent code)?  I can't use 2.x at all without being able to see
> the entire message in the moderation interface.

I rechecked the sources before sending that message and somehow
managed to totally overlook the use/impact of the
ADMINDB_PAGE_TEXT_LIMIT value in Defaults.py.  Don't know how -- its 
one of the files I scanned.

Ahh well, aside from minor complaints about the size of the
TEXTAREA, the fact is that the functionality has not been removed
and all my bluster above, is, umm, well, without grounds.

Sorry.

-- 
J C Lawrence                              Internet: claw at kanga.nu
----------(*)                            Internet: coder at kanga.nu
...Honorary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...



From claw at cp.net  Thu Jun 29 04:30:44 2000
From: claw at cp.net (J C Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:30:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Extremely High Membership lists 
In-Reply-To: Message from J C Lawrence  
   of "Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:35:15 MST."  
References:  
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:35:15 -0700 
J C Lawrence  wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:23:07 -0700 J C Lawrence 
> wrote:

>> I also have significant problems with the new moderation
>> interface...

> ...the fact is that the functionality has not been removed and all
> my bluster above, is, umm, well, without grounds.

While compounding the offense of triply replying to myself, here
follows a simple patch for beta2 which allows the TEXTAREA to be
configurably sized.  The main reason for this is so you can
configure the TEXTAREA to be 80 cols or more wide so that messages
will display as they will read (unline-wrapped).

I've also submitted this patch to the SourceForge Patch Manager.

-- 
J C Lawrence                              Internet: claw at kanga.nu
----------(*)                            Internet: coder at kanga.nu
...Honorary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...

-------------- next part --------------
diff -urN --exclude=CVS --exclude=Makefile mailman-2.0beta2.old/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py mailman-2.0beta2.new/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py

--- mailman-2.0beta2.old/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py	Tue Apr  4 16:12:50 2000
+++ mailman-2.0beta2.new/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py	Wed Jun 28 19:24:08 2000
@@ -221,7 +221,7 @@
         ])
     t.AddRow([
 	Bold('If you reject this post, explain (optional):'),
-	TextArea('comment-%d' % id, rows=4, cols=60,
+	TextArea('comment-%d' % id, rows=mm_cfg.ADMINDB_PAGE_TEXTAREA_REJECT_ROWS, cols=mm_cfg.ADMINDB_PAGE_TEXTAREA_COLS,
                  text=("Please do *not* post administrative requests"
                        " to the mailing list!  If you wish to subscribe,"
                        " visit %s or send a 'help' message to the"
@@ -232,7 +232,7 @@
     row, col = t.GetCurrentRowIndex(), t.GetCurrentCellIndex()
     t.AddCellInfo(row, col, colspan=3)
     t.AddRow([Bold('Message Excerpt:'),
-              TextArea('fulltext-%d' % id, text, rows=10, cols=60)])
+              TextArea('fulltext-%d' % id, text, rows=mm_cfg.ADMINDB_PAGE_TEXTAREA_MSG_ROWS, cols=mm_cfg.ADMINDB_PAGE_TEXTAREA_COLS)])
     row, col = t.GetCurrentRowIndex(), t.GetCurrentCellIndex()
     t.AddCellInfo(row, col, colspan=3)
     form.AddItem(t)
diff -urN --exclude=CVS --exclude=Makefile mailman-2.0beta2.old/Mailman/Defaults.py.in mailman-2.0beta2.new/Mailman/Defaults.py.in
--- mailman-2.0beta2.old/Mailman/Defaults.py.in	Thu Apr  6 21:35:11 2000
+++ mailman-2.0beta2.new/Mailman/Defaults.py.in	Wed Jun 28 19:23:31 2000
@@ -297,6 +297,12 @@
 # size (though this will slow down rendering those pages).
 ADMINDB_PAGE_TEXT_LIMIT = 4096
 
+# How tall and wide should the text areas be for displaying the
+# rejection messages or messages held for moderation?
+
+ADMINDB_PAGE_TEXTAREA_COLS = 60
+ADMINDB_PAGE_TEXTAREA_REJECT_ROWS = 4
+ADMINDB_PAGE_TEXTAREA_MSG_ROWS = 10
 
 # These directories are used to find various important files in the Mailman
 # installation.  PREFIX and EXEC_PREFIX are set by configure and should point

From Dan.Mick at West.Sun.COM  Thu Jun 29 04:57:23 2000
From: Dan.Mick at West.Sun.COM (Dan Mick)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:57:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Extremely High Membership lists 
Message-ID: <200006290256.TAA29764@utopia.west.sun.com>

> I also have significant problems with the new moderation interface
> which has removed significant functionality by showing only an
> excerpted/truncated version of the held message in a TEXTAREA rather
> than the entire message.  The old format of showing the entire
> message allowed me as list moderator:
> 
>   a) To know exactly what I was approving, and thus not miss
>   something untoward toward the end of a message.

Yes, I miss this too.  I wish the textareas had the entire message
in it, so that they have both wonderful attributes of 1) not taking
up page after page of browser area, but 2) having the whole
daggone message (or at least the first N kB, where N is configurable).

>   b) To copy off the held message locally, for local editing and
>   resubmitting, say with editorial/moderation comments.

You can do that with a "discard/forward to" or "hold/forward to".
The "forward to" is nifty.

> The new moderation interface prevents both those abilities, and is
> not configurable to return to the old format.

I don't want the old format; I want that very-slight tweak to the
new format (configurable textarea size), with the perhaps other
tweak of "80-column textarea width".

If you agree, I'm about to code that anyway.




From Dan.Mick at West.Sun.COM  Thu Jun 29 04:58:02 2000
From: Dan.Mick at West.Sun.COM (Dan Mick)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:58:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Extremely High Membership lists 
Message-ID: <200006290257.TAA29768@utopia.west.sun.com>

> On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:35:15 -0700 
> J C Lawrence  wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:23:07 -0700 J C Lawrence 
> > wrote:
> 
> >> I also have significant problems with the new moderation
> >> interface...
> 
> > ...the fact is that the functionality has not been removed and all
> > my bluster above, is, umm, well, without grounds.
> 
> While compounding the offense of triply replying to myself, here
> follows a simple patch for beta2 which allows the TEXTAREA to be
> configurably sized.  The main reason for this is so you can
> configure the TEXTAREA to be 80 cols or more wide so that messages
> will display as they will read (unline-wrapped).



I guess I should have read ahead.  Thanks, JC; I want both of
these.




From claw at cp.net  Thu Jun 29 05:12:15 2000
From: claw at cp.net (J C Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:12:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Extremely High Membership lists 
In-Reply-To: Message from Dan Mick  
   of "Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:57:23 PDT." <200006290256.TAA29764@utopia.west.sun.com> 
References: <200006290256.TAA29764@utopia.west.sun.com> 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:57:23 -0700 (PDT) 
Dan Mick  wrote:

>> a) To know exactly what I was approving, and thus not miss
>> something untoward toward the end of a message.

> Yes, I miss this too.  I wish the textareas had the entire message
> in it, so that they have both wonderful attributes of 1) not
> taking up page after page of browser area, but 2) having the whole
> daggone message (or at least the first N kB, where N is
> configurable).

As I later wrote, this is configurable with the v2beta by setting
ADMINDB_PAGE_TEXT_LIMIT.  Look in ~mailman/Mailman/Default.py for
details.

>> b) To copy off the held message locally, for local editing and
>> resubmitting, say with editorial/moderation comments.

> You can do that with a "discard/forward to" or "hold/forward to".
> The "forward to" is nifty.

I don't see that feature -- it must be newer than the beta I've
installed.

>> The new moderation interface prevents both those abilities, and
>> is not configurable to return to the old format.

> I don't want the old format; 

Hehn.  I rather liked the old plain format.  It made things very
easy.   Little matter.  The new format with my patch is
(almost) good enough.

> I want that very-slight tweak to the new format (configurable
> textarea size), with the perhaps other tweak of "80-column
> textarea width".

> If you agree, I'm about to code that anyway.

I've already submitted a patch for that.

-- 
J C Lawrence                              Internet: claw at kanga.nu
----------(*)                            Internet: coder at kanga.nu
...Honorary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...



From chuqui at plaidworks.com  Thu Jun 29 05:35:19 2000
From: chuqui at plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:35:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Extremely High Membership lists
In-Reply-To: <20000628195403.B14977@xcski.com>
References: 
 
  
  <20000628195403.B14977@xcski.com>
Message-ID: 

At 7:54 PM -0400 6/28/00, Paul Tomblin wrote:

>Without the Model T, it's very unlikely the road network we have today
>would have been built either, but that's not an argument for continuing to
>drive Model Ts.

True, and I wasn't arguing that we continue to drive them. I was 
explaining why they were being driven. I, for one, am planning on 
taking a close look at postfix RSN.

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui at plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq at apple.com)

And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar
and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'"



From chuqui at plaidworks.com  Thu Jun 29 05:36:54 2000
From: chuqui at plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:36:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Extremely High Membership lists
In-Reply-To: 
References: <006a01bfe158$6efe6280$02000003@kneel> 
 
 
Message-ID: 

At 6:23 PM -0700 6/28/00, J C Lawrence wrote:

>  > I made the decision not to go production until Barry finished B3.
>
>I've stuck with v1.1 in production systems here.

I'm making the move from a heavily modified majordomo system, myself, 
to 1.1 was never of interest to me. It's whatever makes sense for the 
next generation stuff and I didn't want (and don't have time for) 
intermediate steps. So I'm hanging out with the majordomo stuff until 
I think 2.0 is ready, and then I'll upgrade as needed to 2.0 final...

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui at plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq at apple.com)

And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar
and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'"



From ricardo at rixhq.nu  Thu Jun 29 08:22:48 2000
From: ricardo at rixhq.nu (Ricardo Kustner)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:22:48 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Users] b3 not working anymore?
Message-ID: <20000629082248.C688@miss-janet.com>

Hi,

I'm running the latest cvs (just updated again this morning just to be sure)
but their doesn't seem to be any more posts being send out on the list??
they all arrive on the approval page, but once approved they vanish into
nothing... I'm not sure how long this has been going on though...
anybody else having the same trouble?

Ricardo.

--




From bwarsaw at beopen.com  Thu Jun 29 08:45:23 2000
From: bwarsaw at beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:45:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re: [Mailman-Developers] b3 not working anymore?
References: <20000629082248.C688@miss-janet.com>
Message-ID: <14682.61571.230240.875717@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "RK" == Ricardo Kustner  writes:

    RK> I'm running the latest cvs (just updated again this morning
    RK> just to be sure) but their doesn't seem to be any more posts
    RK> being send out on the list??  they all arrive on the approval
    RK> page, but once approved they vanish into nothing... I'm not
    RK> sure how long this has been going on though...  anybody else
    RK> having the same trouble?

Take a look in the qfiles directory.  Do you see a bunch of files with
really long names and extensions .msg and .db?  You must reload the
crontab.in file to get all the new cron scripts running at the right
intervals.  Of primary importance is qrunner which clears the messages
waiting in qfiles.

This is documented in the UPGRADING file, which I know no one will
read.  Be prepared to answer this question over and over again. ;)

-Barry




From bwarsaw at beopen.com  Thu Jun 29 08:55:12 2000
From: bwarsaw at beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:55:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Announcing Mailman 2.0 beta 3
Message-ID: <14682.62160.749684.66627@anthem.concentric.net>

Okay folks, I am finally releasing Mailman 2.0 beta 3.  I think I have
nailed the duplicates problem -- at least I have seen no duplicates in
the last 24 hours on python.org, so I'm feeling good about it (we'll
see if that lasts tomorrow morning :).

Please give this version a thorough test; I'd like to have a much
shorter release cycle for the next few betas.  I am aiming to release
2.0 final on July 14th, the Friday before the O'Reilly OSSCON.  I plan
on spending time between now and then on slogging through the
discussion lists and bug reports, and working on the documentation.

See below for an excerpt from the NEWS file for changes since
2.0beta2.  If you have not been following the CVS updates and are
upgrading from 2.0 beta 2 or earlier PLEASE READ THE UPGRADING FILE!
A crucial step is to reload your crontab.in file, otherwise you won't
clear your message queue often enough (or perhaps not at all).

Enjoy,
-Barry

-------------------- snip snip --------------------
2.0 beta 3 (26-Jun-2000)

    - Delivery mechanism (qrunner) refined to support immediate
      queuing, queuing directly from MTA, and queuing on any error
      along the delivery pipeline.  This means 1) that huge lists
      can't time out the MTA's program delivery channel; 2) it is much
      harder to completely lose messages; 3) eventually, qrunner will
      be elaborated to meter delivery to the MTA so as not to swamp
      it.  The tradeoff is in more disk I/O since every message coming
      into the system (and most that are generated by the system) live
      on disk for some part of their journey through Mailman.

      For now, see the Default.py variables QRUNNER_PROCESS_LIFETIME
      and QRUNNER_MAX_MESSAGES for primitive resource management.

      The API to the pipeline handler modules has changed.  See
      Mailman/Handlers/HandlerAPI.py for details.

    - Revamped admindb web page: held messages are split into headers
      and bodies so they are easier to vette; admins can now also
      preserve a held message (for spam evidence gathering) or forward
      the message to a specified email address; disposition of held
      messages can be deferred; held messages have a more context
      meaningful default rejection message.

    - Change to the semantics for `acceptable_aliases' list
      configuration variable, based on suggestions by Harald Meland.

    - New mm_cfg.py variables NNTP_USERNAME and NNTP_PASSWORD can be
      set on a site-wide basis if connection to your nntpd requires
      authentication.

    - The list attribute `num_spawns' has been removed.  The mm_cfg.py
      variables MAX_SPAWNS, and DEFAULT_NUM_SPAWNS removed too.

    - LIST_LOCK_LIFETIME cranked to 5 hours and LIST_LOCK_TIMEOUT
      shortened to 10 seconds.  QRUNNER_LOCK_LIFETIME cranked up to 10
      hours.  This should decrease the changes for bogus and harmful
      lock breaking.

    - Resent-to: is now one of the headers checked for explicit
      destinations.

    - Tons more bounce formats are recognized.  The API to the bounce
      modules has changed.

    - A written LockFile module which should fix most (hopefully all)
      bugs in the locking machinery.  Many improvements suggested by
      Thomas Wouters and Harald Meland.

    - Experimental support (disabled by default) for delivering SMTP
      chunks to the MTA via multiple threads.  Your Python executable
      must have been compiled with thread support enabled, and you
      must set MAX_DELIVERY_THREADS in mm_cfg.py.  Note that this may
      not improve your overall system performance.

    - Some changes and additions to scripts: bin/find_member now
      supports a -w/--owner flag to match regexps against mailing list
      owners; bin/find_member now supports multiple regexps;
      cron/gate_news command line option changes; new script
      bin/dumbdb for debugging purposes; bin/clone_member can now also
      remove the old address and change change the list owner
      addresses.

    - The News/Mail gateway admin page has a button that lets you do
      an explicit catchup of the newsgroup.

    - The CVS repository has been moved out to SourceForge.  For more
      information, see the project summary at

      http://sourceforge.net/project/?group_id=103

    - Lots 'o bug fixes and some performance improvements.



From bwarsaw at beopen.com  Thu Jun 29 09:05:24 2000
From: bwarsaw at beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 03:05:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re: [Mailman-Developers] Announcing Mailman 2.0 beta 3
References: <14682.62160.749684.66627@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <14682.62772.737708.71176@anthem.concentric.net>

Oops, I forgot to tell you how to get the tarball.  You can down load
it from any of these urls:

ftp://www.python.org/pub/mailman/mailman.tar.gz

http://www.list.org/mailman.tar.gz

http://download.sourceforge.net/mailman/mailman-2.0beta3.tgz

It will also hopefully soon be available on ftp.gnu.org.

Cheers, and G'Night. :)
-Barry



From Nigel.Metheringham at VData.co.uk  Thu Jun 29 11:00:10 2000
From: Nigel.Metheringham at VData.co.uk (Nigel Metheringham)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:00:10 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Extremely High Membership lists 
In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach  
   of "Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:44:51 PDT."  
Message-ID: 

chuqui at plaidworks.com said:
> Are the others considered secure because they're secure? or because
> all of the hackers spend their time on sendmail and haven't bothered
> to try to break them open? I know things like Postfix were designed
> with an ear to security, but have the hackers proven it right? 

My belief is that qmail and postfix are more inherently secure than 
sendmail - sendmail is one big chunk that does everything and has root 
privileges, so a compromise tends to take the whole machine out.

Qmail and postfix are suites of small  programs with limited trusts and 
remits.  If one of these components is compromised you might be able to 
get into the mail handler but its *very* unlikely you can break the 
whole machine (other than maybe DOS).

Exim has the severe disadvantage that it runs setuid root and is a big 
lump of code.  It has the advantage of sendmail that it was written 
later and in a consistant style which should protect it against buffer 
overruns.  Downside is that it has not had as much testing as sendmail 
in the wild, neither has it been formally audited to my knowledge.  It 
has had one security exploit to my knowledge (however never exploited 
in the wild - again AFAIK).  Exim *can* be run completely without root 
on systems which have no local users.

My take is that I have been working with and on exim since even before 
it was around (I previously maintained smail 3).  Exim is wonderfully 
flexible and extensible.  If I were starting out now I would probably 
go for postfix, but don't currently feel the need to move currently.  
If I was designing a real high volume list handler I would certainly 
evaluate postfix which I think would probably outperform exim in this 
situation.  [qmail is not an option - it uses more bandwidth and thats 
costly in the EU]

claw at cp.net said:
> Note: I'm not aware of a single large scale high volume commercial
> service on the 'net that runs Sendmail.  Not one.  You can check this
> youself by telnetting to the SMTP port on their MXes and reading the
> HELO message.   

Apparently according to the sendmail marketing dweeb I saw a few weeks 
back they have something like 7 of the top 10 ISPs... which I don't 
really believe since it depends how you define things.   AOL was 
mentioned... their MXes give back something rather customised.
IMHO sendmail installations fall into 2 camps - those that know what 
they are doing and have good reasons for their choice.  And those that 
use it because its what shipped on the box and they know no better - I 
avoid ISPs that do that latter, which makes up around 80% plus of all 
ISPs and a very low percentage of those with a clue.

	Nigel.
-- 
[ - Opinions expressed are personal and may not be shared by VData - ]
[ Nigel Metheringham                  Nigel.Metheringham at VData.co.uk ]
[ Phone: +44 1423 850000                         Fax +44 1423 858866 ]





From gorgo at caesar.elte.hu  Thu Jun 29 14:22:59 2000
From: gorgo at caesar.elte.hu (Gergely Madarasz)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:22:59 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re: [Mailman-Developers] b3 not working anymore?
In-Reply-To: <14682.61571.230240.875717@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

> 
> >>>>> "RK" == Ricardo Kustner  writes:
> 
>     RK> I'm running the latest cvs (just updated again this morning
>     RK> just to be sure) but their doesn't seem to be any more posts
>     RK> being send out on the list??  they all arrive on the approval
>     RK> page, but once approved they vanish into nothing... I'm not
>     RK> sure how long this has been going on though...  anybody else
>     RK> having the same trouble?
> 
> Take a look in the qfiles directory.  Do you see a bunch of files with
> really long names and extensions .msg and .db?  You must reload the
> crontab.in file to get all the new cron scripts running at the right
> intervals.  Of primary importance is qrunner which clears the messages
> waiting in qfiles.
> 
> This is documented in the UPGRADING file, which I know no one will
> read.  Be prepared to answer this question over and over again. ;)

Does this mean that message delivery is not handled at all when the
incoming mail is passed to mailman, and every message needs to wait for a
cronjob to run ? 
I found the method used in 1.1 (try to deliver immediatelly, if it fails,
the cronjob will handle it) much more appropriate, even though it often
resulted in mail duplication (if the mail was handled the same time when
the cronjob was run, it was sometimes delivered by both methods), which
could have been fixed by some better locking mechanisom...

-- 
Madarasz Gergely           gorgo at caesar.elte.hu         gorgo at linux.rulez.org
      It's practically impossible to look at a penguin and feel angry.
          Egy pingvinre gyakorlatilag lehetetlen haragosan nezni.
                    HuLUG: http://mlf.linux.rulez.org/





From GLeblanc at cu-portland.edu  Thu Jun 29 17:11:04 2000
From: GLeblanc at cu-portland.edu (Gregory Leblanc)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:11:04 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Extremely High Membership lists 
Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nigel Metheringham [mailto:Nigel.Metheringham at VData.co.uk]
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 2:00 AM
> To: Chuq Von Rospach
> Cc: J C Lawrence; Derek Simkowiak; Gary Wilson; 
> mailman-users at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Extremely High Membership lists 
> 
[snip]
> Exim has the severe disadvantage that it runs setuid root and 
> is a big 
> lump of code.  It has the advantage of sendmail that it was written 
> later and in a consistant style which should protect it 
> against buffer 
> overruns.  Downside is that it has not had as much testing as 
> sendmail 
> in the wild, neither has it been formally audited to my 
> knowledge. 

Hmm, OpenBSD ships with sendmail, so it's certainly possible to secure it.
My understanding was that the OpenBSD people have done a complete security
audit on all of their code, but I'm not sure that this includes Sendmail.
	Greg



From rpeterson at wallacefloyd.com  Thu Jun 29 18:39:33 2000
From: rpeterson at wallacefloyd.com (Ron Peterson)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:39:33 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] beta3 newlist problem
Message-ID: <395B7BC5.BBC9A648@wallacefloyd.com>

I just upgraded from beta2 to beta3.  Now I can't create a new list.

[mailman at wfs02 mailman]$ bin/newlist
Enter the name of the list: everyone
Enter the email of the person running the list:
rpeterson at wallacefloyd.com
Initial everyone password: 
Traceback (innermost last):
  File "bin/newlist", line 155, in ?
    main(sys.argv)
  File "bin/newlist", line 112, in main
    mlist.Create(listname, owner_mail, pw)
  File "/home2/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 785, in Create
    self.Lock()
  File "/home2/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 1345, in Lock
    self.Load()
  File "/home2/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 894, in Load
    raise Errors.MMUnknownListError
Mailman.Errors.MMUnknownListError

-- 

Ron Peterson
Systems Manager
Wallace Floyd Design Group
273 Summer Street
Boston, MA  02210
617.350.7400 tel
617.350.0051 fax
rpeterson at wallacefloyd.com



From ken at hudat.com  Thu Jun 29 16:21:28 2000
From: ken at hudat.com (Kendrick Vargas)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:21:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] virtual domain support...
In-Reply-To: <395A7909.BFD14EE8@ubiobio.cl>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, German Poo Caaman~o wrote:

> Kendrick Vargas wrote:
> > I was wondering if someone could point me to some documentation on how to
> > get Mailman to specify a specific "From: " domain when masking the real
> > sender?
> > 
> > I have anonymous_list set to "Yes", and I have host_name set to
> > "domainthatiwant.com" ... When I send mail to the list, the From address
> > gets set to "listname-admin at machinesdomain.com". I would really like to be
> > able to control what the From address gets set to, but I can't find it
> > anywhere. I've changed the delivery mode from SMTPDirect to Sendmail and
> > back, but nothing. I've tried playing with Sendmails generics
> > table... nothing. Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Sendmail use FQDN.  If you have a CNAME for domainthatitwant.com,
> sendmail will replace it with machinesdomain.com.
> 
> For your mailing lists you can set only MX as:
> domainthatitwant.com	MX	10 machinesdomain.com
> 
> anything else.

The machine in question acts as MX for several domains. I'd like to be
able to set the "From: " domain to act as any of these. Majordomo can do
it, but I'd really like to get away from Majordomo because I like
Mailman's anonymous_list option (it's being begged for right now). 

The web page admin.cgi says this about the host_name variable: 

"The host_name is the preferred name for email to mailman-related
addresses on this host, and generally should be the mail host's exchanger
address, if any. This setting can be useful for selecting among
alternative names of a host that has multiple addresses."

The documentation on the website says this:

"For multi-home hosts (systems that have different aliases) this would be
the value that Mailman uses to identify itself. You should not attempt to
modify this value without consulting your system administrator or Mailman
may cease to work."

I am just guessing (because none of the documentation I've seen is
particularly clear on anything) that this is supposed to do what I want to
do, but it doesn't. Is this a bug? Is this the same as majordomo's
"$whereami" variable?
			-peace

--- BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK ------------+-----------
GAT d- s:+ !a C+(+++) UI/L/S/B++(+++) | "In the morning glad I see
P>+ L+(++) E---- W+++ N+ o? K? w++++  |  My foe outstrech'd beneath the tree."
O--- M-- V PS+++@ PE Y-- PGP+ t++ 5   |               -The Poison Tree
X++ R- tv+ b DI++ D+ G e>*  h*(!) r-  |                William Blake
y*(+) ------ END GEEK CODE BLOCK -----+





From rpeterson at wallacefloyd.com  Thu Jun 29 16:13:39 2000
From: rpeterson at wallacefloyd.com (Ron Peterson)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:13:39 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] private archives not found
Message-ID: <395B5993.4FC44588@wallacefloyd.com>

I'm using Mailman-2.0beta2.

First of all, wow, what a nice program!

I've gotten a couple of lists up and running.  They both seem to be
working fine.  The first list I set up has public archives.  They work
fine.

I set up the second list, then went to the adminstrative page for the
list, and restricted posting to members only, and made the archives
private.  I have posted several messages to this list.  I've recieved
them o.k., so things seem to be working.

When I attempt to view the web archive, I'm asked to authenticate
myself.  Afterwards, the page returned says:

Archive File Not Found
No file /everyone/ (/home2/mailman/archives/private/everyone/)

In fact, looking in /home2/mailman/archives/private, this is what I see:
everyone.mbox, test, test.mbox.  everyone.mbox is empty.  There is no
folder 'everyone'.

I tried creating directory 'everyone', with the same permissions as
'test'.  Then I posted another message to the list.  That didn't work
either.

I also switched my original list to have private archives.  I log into
the list, and it appears to be working just fine.  So my Apache
permissions must be o.k.

What went wrong with the second list, and how do I fix it?  Should the
first posting go to a public list, then switch the archive to private???


-- 

Ron Peterson
Systems Manager
Wallace Floyd Design Group
273 Summer Street
Boston, MA  02210
617.350.7400 tel
617.350.0051 fax
rpeterson at wallacefloyd.com



From chuqui at plaidworks.com  Thu Jun 29 16:17:29 2000
From: chuqui at plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:17:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Extremely High Membership lists
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 10:00 AM +0100 6/29/00, Nigel Metheringham wrote:

>My belief is that qmail and postfix are more inherently secure than
>sendmail

The key word here is belief. Whether you like it or not, sendmail has 
a lot of field testing behind it, and a huge user base watching for 
(and when they're found, fixing) security problems. No matter how 
much you believe the others are more secure (and I agree with you on 
that, FWIW), that kind of real world testing and evaluation isn't 
belief, it's proof.

I'll leave it at that, since we're heading very off-topic and into 
one huge rathole of a religious fight.

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui at plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq at apple.com)

And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar
and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'"



From jbleasdale at rm.com  Thu Jun 29 16:32:13 2000
From: jbleasdale at rm.com (JOHN BLEASDALE)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:32:13 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Default option about whether to archive or not
Message-ID: <41F16105E0DAD211AE8A0008C7A4F12706E25028@rmexchange.internal.rmplc.net>

I am getting confused about how to configure a default archiving option for
new lists that I create.

I have the defaults set up as I require and these work fine for new lists,
except for the "Archive messages?" option which always starts on Yes. For
efficency, I want this to default to No, but start archiving if the list
owner changes it to Yes. I have searched through Defaults.py and cannot find
a way of ensuring that the "Archive messages?" option starts on No.

I am using 2.0b2 and have entries in mm_cgf.py for PRIVATE_ARCHIVE_URL,
PRIVATE_ARCHIVE_URL, PUBLIC_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER and PRIVATE_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER
all set up to use MHonArch. I also have ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX = 0 and this is
causing me most confusion. 

Defaults.py says:

# ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX
#-1 - do not do any archiving
# 0 - do not archive to mbox, use builtin mailman html archiving only
# 1 - archive to mbox to use an external archiving mechanism only
# 2 - archive to both mbox and builtin mailman html archiving -
#     use this to make both external archiving mechanism work and
#     mailman's builtin html archiving.  the flat mail file can be
#     useful for searching, external archivers, etc.

This option suggests how archiving shoulld work, _if archiving is desired_
rather than whether it shoud happen by default.

Have I missed something obvious?

Thanks,
John




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From claw at kanga.nu  Thu Jun 29 17:40:30 2000
From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:40:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Extremely High Membership lists 
In-Reply-To: Message from Nigel Metheringham  
   of "Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:00:10 +0100."  
References:  
Message-ID: <1653.962293230@kanga.nu>

On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:00:10 +0100 
Nigel Metheringham  wrote:

> My belief is that qmail and postfix are more inherently secure
> than sendmail - sendmail is one big chunk that does everything and
> has root privileges, so a compromise tends to take the whole
> machine out.

Aye, that's the argument of architectures.  Postfix and QMail have
architectures that lend themselves to being secure.  That doesn't
mean they are necessarily are, as the very rapid rash of fixes to
both of those products in their early life attests (admittedly
almost all for DoS or mail loss/corruption attacks, not system
access), just that they basically follow the types of designs that
people who do security profressionally tend to prefer (for very good
reasons).

> claw at cp.net said:
>> Note: I'm not aware of a single large scale high volume
>> commercial service on the 'net that runs Sendmail.  Not one.  You
>> can check this youself by telnetting to the SMTP port on their
>> MXes and reading the HELO message.

> Apparently according to the sendmail marketing dweeb I saw a few
> weeks back they have something like 7 of the top 10 ISPs... which
> I don't really believe since it depends how you define things.
> AOL was mentioned... 

AOL is running an in-house developed custom MTA.  I don't know what
the code roots of that MTA are, but I have considerable reason to
think it isn't Sendmail. (They were looking at outsourcing their MTA
business a while ago to a company I was consulting to).

> their MXes give back something rather customised.  

  $ telnet yg.mx.aol.com smtp
  Trying 205.188.156.228...
  Connected to yg.mx.aol.com.
  Escape character is '^]'.
  220-rly-yg04.mx.aol.com ESMTP relay_in.9; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:36:03 -0400
  220-America Online (AOL) and its affiliated companies do not
  220-     authorize the use of its proprietary computers and computer
  220-     networks to accept, transmit, or distribute unsolicited bulk
  220      e-mail sent from the internet.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw at kanga.nu
----------(*)                              Other: coder at kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--



From dereks at kd-dev.com  Thu Jun 29 21:57:34 2000
From: dereks at kd-dev.com (Derek Simkowiak)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:57:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Extremely High Membership lists 
In-Reply-To: <1653.962293230@kanga.nu>
Message-ID: 

	I'm still getting multiple copies of stuff... I guess 2.0Beta3 was
premature?  (Or was it ever determined to be a MailMan problem?)

--Derek


On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, J C Lawrence wrote:

-> On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:00:10 +0100 
-> Nigel Metheringham  wrote:
-> 
-> > My belief is that qmail and postfix are more inherently secure
-> > than sendmail - sendmail is one big chunk that does everything and
-> > has root privileges, so a compromise tends to take the whole
-> > machine out.
-> 
-> Aye, that's the argument of architectures.  Postfix and QMail have
-> architectures that lend themselves to being secure.  That doesn't
-> mean they are necessarily are, as the very rapid rash of fixes to
-> both of those products in their early life attests (admittedly
-> almost all for DoS or mail loss/corruption attacks, not system
-> access), just that they basically follow the types of designs that
-> people who do security profressionally tend to prefer (for very good
-> reasons).
-> 
-> > claw at cp.net said:
-> >> Note: I'm not aware of a single large scale high volume
-> >> commercial service on the 'net that runs Sendmail.  Not one.  You
-> >> can check this youself by telnetting to the SMTP port on their
-> >> MXes and reading the HELO message.
-> 
-> > Apparently according to the sendmail marketing dweeb I saw a few
-> > weeks back they have something like 7 of the top 10 ISPs... which
-> > I don't really believe since it depends how you define things.
-> > AOL was mentioned... 
-> 
-> AOL is running an in-house developed custom MTA.  I don't know what
-> the code roots of that MTA are, but I have considerable reason to
-> think it isn't Sendmail. (They were looking at outsourcing their MTA
-> business a while ago to a company I was consulting to).
-> 
-> > their MXes give back something rather customised.  
-> 
->   $ telnet yg.mx.aol.com smtp
->   Trying 205.188.156.228...
->   Connected to yg.mx.aol.com.
->   Escape character is '^]'.
->   220-rly-yg04.mx.aol.com ESMTP relay_in.9; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:36:03 -0400
->   220-America Online (AOL) and its affiliated companies do not
->   220-     authorize the use of its proprietary computers and computer
->   220-     networks to accept, transmit, or distribute unsolicited bulk
->   220      e-mail sent from the internet.
-> 
-> -- 
-> J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw at kanga.nu
-> ----------(*)                              Other: coder at kanga.nu
-> --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--
-> 
-> ------------------------------------------------------
-> Mailman-Users maillist  -  Mailman-Users at python.org
-> http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
-> 




From Dan.Mick at West.Sun.COM  Thu Jun 29 22:29:42 2000
From: Dan.Mick at West.Sun.COM (Dan Mick)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:29:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] beta3 newlist problem
Message-ID: <200006292028.NAA24629@utopia.west.sun.com>

Argh!  Me too.  Barry, this looks pretty high-priority.

I just upgraded from beta2 to beta3.  Now I can't create a new list.

[mailman at wfs02 mailman]$ bin/newlist
Enter the name of the list: everyone
Enter the email of the person running the list:
rpeterson at wallacefloyd.com
Initial everyone password: 
Traceback (innermost last):
  File "bin/newlist", line 155, in ?
    main(sys.argv)
  File "bin/newlist", line 112, in main
    mlist.Create(listname, owner_mail, pw)
  File "/home2/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 785, in Create
    self.Lock()
  File "/home2/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 1345, in Lock
    self.Load()
  File "/home2/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 894, in Load
    raise Errors.MMUnknownListError
Mailman.Errors.MMUnknownListError




From Dan.Mick at West.Sun.COM  Thu Jun 29 23:04:14 2000
From: Dan.Mick at West.Sun.COM (Dan Mick)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:04:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] quick-fix patch for newlist failure
Message-ID: <200006292103.OAA26391@utopia.west.sun.com>

Here's a fix that's probably safe, and fixes the "newlist" problem.
Of course I'm not sure if it's the right final fix, but I figure
while Barry's examining the problem, this might be worth a try
for some of you.

The issue is that list.Lock() now wants to reload the list config.db
(with list.Load()),  and that doesn't exist in the case of list.Create().
So this fix just catches the "Unknown List" error from Load(),
and ignores it, on the theory that the only time that should
happen is when the list is in the process of being created.

I've installed it on my beta3 production site, and will let you
know if it seems to cause any other errors.

diff MailList.py.orig MailList.py
1345c1345,1348
<         self.Load()
---
>         try:
>            self.Load()
>         except Errors.MMUnknownListError:
>            pass




From secabeen at pobox.com  Thu Jun 29 23:34:10 2000
From: secabeen at pobox.com (Ted Cabeen)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:34:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Default option about whether to archive or not 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:32:13 BST."
             <41F16105E0DAD211AE8A0008C7A4F12706E25028@rmexchange.internal.rmplc.net> 
Message-ID: <200006292134.QAA15053@entropy.uchicago.edu>

In message <41F16105E0DAD211AE8A0008C7A4F12706E25028 at rmexchange.internal.rmplc.
net>, JOHN BLEASDALE writes:
>I am getting confused about how to configure a default archiving option for
>new lists that I create.
>
>I have the defaults set up as I require and these work fine for new lists,
>except for the "Archive messages?" option which always starts on Yes. For
>efficency, I want this to default to No, but start archiving if the list
>owner changes it to Yes. I have searched through Defaults.py and cannot find
>a way of ensuring that the "Archive messages?" option starts on No.

That's because such an option doesn't exist.  I submitted a two line patch to 
sourceforge (#100554), but it hasn't been applied yet.  Barry?  Someone with 
CVS access?

--
Ted Cabeen           http://www.pobox.com/~secabeen         secabeen at pobox.com
Check Website or Keyserver for PGP/GPG Key BA0349D2      secabeen at uchicago.edu
"I have taken all knowledge to be my province." -F. Bacon  secabeen at cabeen.org
"Human kind cannot bear very much reality."-T.S.Eliot        cabeen at netcom.com


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From ckolar at admin.aurora.edu  Thu Jun 29 23:39:45 2000
From: ckolar at admin.aurora.edu (Christopher Kolar)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:39:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question: signup box kluge
In-Reply-To: <200006290106.SAA27534@utopia.west.sun.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000629162858.00d17a40@admin.aurora.edu>

At 08:07 PM 6/28/2000, Dan wrote:
>The answer was "what's the question"?
>
>What does it mean to "type an email address and hit a submit button"?
>Yeah, one could add that right away:
>
>

[note to developers: is there a more elegant way to implement this?]

The list is not being very helpful today.  I think that what this person 
wants is something like the quickie subscription boxes that you see for 
eGroups of ListBot.    I have been working on something like this for a few 
lists that I run.  As long as security is not that important, it is 
possible to work the subscription box into a web page.

NOTE: this is a really quick kluge.

NoTE:  this is really not secure, I only use it on lists where it does not 
matter that much.

To use:

Drop into a page.  Edit the ACTION line to point to the proper 
server/listname on your MM server.  Also edit the two password fields so 
that they are the same.  What this will do is provide an initial password 
for the user, making joining easy.  What this will also do is provide the 
same initial password for all users, so IT IS NOT REALLY SECURE.  At least 
change it to something sufficiently random looking to encourage people to 
change it themselves.

Here is the HTML:




 


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You will be sent email requesting confirmation, to prevent others from
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And if anyone posts this without modification and I start to see lots of 
subscribers to ilcomnets then I will come after you with a vengeance.

--chris


 > --- Todd LaClair 
> > > wrote:
>
> > >If I wanted to have a box on my webpage where a user would type their 
> email
> > >address and hit a submit button. Would MailMan be the best product to 
> manage
> > >this user list?


--
/////\\\\\/////\\\\\
  Christopher G. Kolar
    Director, Department of Instructional Technology
    Aurora University, Aurora, Illinois
  ckolar at admin.aurora.edu  --  www.aurora.edu/~ckolar
         [PGP Public Key ID: 0xC6492C72]




From Dan.Mick at West.Sun.COM  Thu Jun 29 23:55:15 2000
From: Dan.Mick at West.Sun.COM (Dan Mick)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] Question: signup box kluge
Message-ID: <200006292154.OAA29267@utopia.west.sun.com>

> >The answer was "what's the question"?
> >
> >What does it mean to "type an email address and hit a submit button"?
> >Yeah, one could add that right away:
> >
> >
> 

> The list is not being very helpful today.  I think that what this person 
> wants is something like the quickie subscription boxes that you see for 
> eGroups of ListBot. 

Ah.. Well, if the word "subscribe" had appeared anywhere in the question,
I might agree that you were right...but there's no way to tell
that.

Todd, didn't you ask the original question?  Is there some
reason you're not clarifying this?

> --- Todd LaClair  wrote:
>
> If I wanted to have a box on my webpage where a user would type their
> email address and hit a submit button. Would MailMan be the best
> product to manage this user list?




From ririe at amediainc.com  Fri Jun 30 00:09:52 2000
From: ririe at amediainc.com (Robert Irie)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:09:52 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Installation problems
Message-ID: 

Hi,
	Im trying to install the latest 2.0beta3 on a sun SunOS 5.6
mchine. I followed the INSTALL instructions and get errors at the point
where
I try to create a test list. Here is what I get:

> ./newlist
Enter the name of the list: test
Enter the email of the person running the list: ririe at amediainc.com
Initial test password: test
Traceback (innermost last):
  File "./newlist", line 155, in ?
    main(sys.argv)
  File "./newlist", line 112, in main
    mlist.Create(listname, owner_mail, pw)
  File "/export/home/ririe/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 785, in Create
    self.Lock()
  File "/export/home/ririe/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 1345, in Lock
    self.Load()
  File "/export/home/ririe/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 894, in Load
    raise Errors.MMUnknownListError
Mailman.Errors.MMUnknownListError

Can someone tell me what is going on here?

Thanks!
Robert




From ririe at amediainc.com  Fri Jun 30 00:13:25 2000
From: ririe at amediainc.com (Robert Irie)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:13:25 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Oops!
Message-ID: 

Sorry for the previous post, shoulda checked the archives before sending it!

Robert




From GLeblanc at cu-portland.edu  Fri Jun 30 01:10:21 2000
From: GLeblanc at cu-portland.edu (Gregory Leblanc)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:10:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Question: signup box kluge
Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher Kolar [mailto:ckolar at admin.aurora.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 2:40 PM
> To: mailman-users at python.org; mailman-developers at python.org
> Cc: todd.laclair at mail.dreamtheater.com
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Question: signup box kluge
> 
> At 08:07 PM 6/28/2000, Dan wrote:
> >The answer was "what's the question"?
> >
> >What does it mean to "type an email address and hit a submit button"?
> >Yeah, one could add that right away:
> >
> >
> 
> [note to developers: is there a more elegant way to implement this?]
> 
> The list is not being very helpful today.  I think that what 
> this person 
> wants is something like the quickie subscription boxes that 
> you see for 
> eGroups of ListBot.    I have been working on something like 
> this for a few 
> lists that I run.  As long as security is not that important, it is 
> possible to work the subscription box into a web page.

I was the first reply, and will take full responsibility for not being
helpful.  However, I, and at least one other person, was not clear on what
this person wanted to do.  I asked politely for some clarification, but
didn't get any.  Sorry if that offended anybody, but we really didn't
understand the question

> NOTE: this is a really quick kluge.
> 
> NoTE:  this is really not secure, I only use it on lists 
> where it does not 
> matter that much.
> 
> To use:
> 
> Drop into a page.  Edit the ACTION line to point to the proper 
> server/listname on your MM server.  Also edit the two 
> password fields so 
> that they are the same.  What this will do is provide an 
> initial password 
> for the user, making joining easy.  What this will also do is 
> provide the 
> same initial password for all users, so IT IS NOT REALLY 
> SECURE.  At least 
> change it to something sufficiently random looking to 
> encourage people to 
> change it themselves.

If you've got any sort of scripting language available on your server, like
ColdFusion, PHP, or whatever, it should be easy enough to generate a random
password here.  

[snip]
>  > --- Todd LaClair 
> > > > wrote:
> >
> > > >If I wanted to have a box on my webpage where a user 
> would type their 
> > email
> > > >address and hit a submit button. Would MailMan be the 
> best product to 
> > manage
> > > >this user list?
> 
> 
> --
> /////\\\\\/////\\\\\
>   Christopher G. Kolar
>     Director, Department of Instructional Technology
>     Aurora University, Aurora, Illinois
>   ckolar at admin.aurora.edu  --  www.aurora.edu/~ckolar
>          [PGP Public Key ID: 0xC6492C72]
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users maillist  -  Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> 



From jim at cosource.com  Fri Jun 30 01:37:30 2000
From: jim at cosource.com (Jim Hebert)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:37:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re: Question: signup box kluge
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000629162858.00d17a40@admin.aurora.edu>
Message-ID: 

[re: embed pw and pw-conf as hardcoded, hidden inputs]

You could use either a server side solution (php, xssi, whatever) or a
client side solution (javascript, etc) to give the two hidden password
fields random values.

jim
ashamed at his stupid hacks sometimes =)

-- 
Jim Hebert                                       http://www.cosource.com/
jim at cosource.com          The cooperative market for open source software

"Well actually I was considering opening a market in flying pigs. Mostly
because it would be more practical...." -- Alan Cox





From brian at gweep.bc.ca  Fri Jun 30 02:57:34 2000
From: brian at gweep.bc.ca (Brian Edmonds)
Date: 29 Jun 2000 17:57:34 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Extremely High Membership lists
In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:36:54 -0700"
References: <006a01bfe158$6efe6280$02000003@kneel>
	
	
	
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Chuq Von Rospach  writes:
>> I've stuck with v1.1 in production systems here.
> I'm making the move from a heavily modified majordomo system, myself,
> so 1.1 was never of interest to me.

I'm also planning to upgrade from Majordomo, though doubtless not nearly
as heavily modified as your own.  I've already moved my smaller, lower
traffic lists, but I can't move my two biggest lists until at the very
least I get the announce option that I posted about on the the dev list
a couple of days ago.

I would dearly love to get the bounce handling and web admin for those
lists right now, but for all of how fabulous that would be I just can't
sacrifice the current functionality Majordomo gives me for -announce
lists.

Brian.

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From JokeMList at aol.com  Fri Jun 30 05:02:44 2000
From: JokeMList at aol.com (JokeMList at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:02:44 EDT
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Program - Not Satsified
Message-ID: <9.77f26f7.268d67d4@aol.com>

Hi there,

My name is Jeff, and I am the founder of MyJokeMail.com, a very popular daily 
humor providor.  I currently have over 5000 people on my mailing list, but I 
figured I would switch to Mailman to maintain my subscription list.

However, now I am feeling like this was a big mistake.  Allow me to explain.  
All I need is a list where subscribers can write to a generic address (like 
jokemail-list at myjokemail.com ) and be sent a "Confirm Letter", to which they 
respond and are automatically added.  I was under the assumption that Mailman 
can do that stuff.

Instead, all I see is a program where my subscribers would have to go to a 
separate webpage that Mailman provides, and submit their address there.  
What's worse is that they even have to have a password.  This is nothing like 
I though this program would be like.  

Another thing:  having 5000 people, isn't there an easy way to transfer all 
of them over to a file, instead of pasting their names in batches of 30 
addresses to the configuration page?

So I guess I am writing this for advice.  Does this program do any of the 
above things that I am looking for?  I dont need my subscribers to have a 
password...simply a letter to confirm their subscription request upon 
submission.  They also shouldnt have to go to a separate webpage, but 
instead, could directly email the list for a subscription if need be.

Please help....my list is in desperate need for an upgrade, and I am anxious 
to get the ball rolling.
     Jeff Mash, Founder
     MyJokeMail.com



From bwarsaw at beopen.com  Fri Jun 30 05:07:27 2000
From: bwarsaw at beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:07:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re: quick-fix patch for newlist failure
References: <200006292103.OAA26391@utopia.west.sun.com>
Message-ID: <14684.3823.645620.176283@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "DM" == Dan Mick  writes:

    DM> Here's a fix that's probably safe, and fixes the "newlist"
    DM> problem.  Of course I'm not sure if it's the right final fix,
    DM> but I figure while Barry's examining the problem, this might
    DM> be worth a try for some of you.

I just got back from a gig -- thanks for the quick fix Dan.  Here's a
slightly better one that also fixes a few other ugly bits.

This is serious enough to warrant a quick beta4, but I want to spend a
couple of hours looking into Ricardo's problem (which I still can't
reproduce).  Better that then having to do a beta5 over the weekend ;}
I'm just too beat tonight.

-Barry

Index: MailList.py
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/mailman/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py,v
retrieving revision 1.172
diff -u -r1.172 MailList.py
--- MailList.py	2000/06/28 18:40:48	1.172
+++ MailList.py	2000/06/30 03:04:42
@@ -782,23 +782,21 @@
         Utils.MakeDirTree(os.path.join(mm_cfg.LIST_DATA_DIR, name))
 	self._full_path = os.path.join(mm_cfg.LIST_DATA_DIR, name)
 	self._internal_name = name
-	self.Lock()
-	self.InitVars(name, admin, crypted_password)
-	self._ready = 1
-	self.InitTemplates()
-	self.Save()
-	self.CreateFiles()
-
-    def CreateFiles(self):
+        # Don't use Lock() since that tries to load the non-existant config.db
+        self.__lock.lock()
+        self.InitVars(name, admin, crypted_password)
+        self._ready = 1
+        self.InitTemplates()
+        self.Save()
 	# Touch these files so they have the right dir perms no matter what.
 	# A "just-in-case" thing.  This shouldn't have to be here.
 	ou = os.umask(002)
 	try:
-	    open(os.path.join(mm_cfg.LOCK_DIR, '%s.lock' % 
-			      self._internal_name), 'a+').close()
-	    open(os.path.join(self._full_path, "next-digest"), "a+").close()
-	    open(os.path.join(self._full_path, "next-digest-topics"),
-		 "a+").close()
+            path = os.path.join(self._full_path, 'next-digest')
+            fp = open(path, "a+")
+            fp.close()
+	    fp = open(path+'-topics', "a+")
+            fp.close()
 	finally:
 	    os.umask(ou)
 	



From Dan.Mick at West.Sun.COM  Fri Jun 30 05:11:09 2000
From: Dan.Mick at West.Sun.COM (Dan Mick)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:11:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Program - Not Satsified
Message-ID: <200006300310.UAA11228@utopia.west.sun.com>

> All I need is a list where subscribers can write to a generic address (like 
> jokemail-list at myjokemail.com ) and be sent a "Confirm Letter", to which they 
> respond and are automatically added.  I was under the assumption that Mailman 
> can do that stuff.
> 
> Instead, all I see is a program where my subscribers would have to go to a 
> separate webpage that Mailman provides, and submit their address there.  
> What's worse is that they even have to have a password.  This is nothing like 
> I though this program would be like.  

Of course you can subscribe via email; a message to -request with
"help" in the subject is probably the easiest way to get instructions
on how to do that.  See templates/help.txt for what that message
would contain, if you haven't yet installed Mailman.

> Another thing:  having 5000 people, isn't there an easy way to transfer all 
> of them over to a file, instead of pasting their names in batches of 30 
> addresses to the configuration page?

When you say "transfer all of them over to a file", do you mean
"transfer them to be subscribers to the Mailman mailing list by
putting their names in a file and then submitting that file
as input to Mailman"?

The "mass-subscribe" option on the Membership Management page
will take more than 30 at a time, so that's not a limitation
you need to worry about as far as I know...but easier than
that is to use ~mailman/bin/add_members.  Read the top part
of that file for documentation.
 
> So I guess I am writing this for advice.  Does this program do any of the 
> above things that I am looking for?  I dont need my subscribers to have a 
> password...simply a letter to confirm their subscription request upon 
> submission.  

Mailman requires that your users have passwords; it's simply part
of the program.  Many people have asked for this to be configurable,
but it is not yet.  But the password can be randomly assigned,
and can be changed by the user through the web page at any time.




From claw at kanga.nu  Fri Jun 30 05:12:10 2000
From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:12:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Program - Not Satsified 
In-Reply-To: Message from JokeMList@aol.com 
   of "Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:02:44 EDT." <9.77f26f7.268d67d4@aol.com> 
References: <9.77f26f7.268d67d4@aol.com> 
Message-ID: <17969.962334730@kanga.nu>

On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:02:44 EDT 
JokeMList   wrote:

> All I need is a list where subscribers can write to a generic
> address (like jokemail-list at myjokemail.com ) and be sent a
> "Confirm Letter", to which they respond and are automatically
> added.  I was under the assumption that Mailman can do that stuff.

It can via the -request at domain address.

> Instead, all I see is a program where my subscribers would have to
> go to a separate webpage that Mailman provides, and submit their
> address there.  

They can ALTERNATIVELY use the web page.  They don't have to.

> What's worse is that they even have to have a password.  

Only if they use the web side.  If they subscribe via email a random
password is assigned automatically.

> Another thing: having 5000 people, isn't there an easy way to
> transfer all of them over to a file, instead of pasting their
> names in batches of 30 addresses to the configuration page?

~mailman/bin/add_members.

> I dont need my subscribers to have a password...simply a letter to
> confirm their subscription request upon submission.  

Passwords are also used to prevent forged unsubscriptions, as well
as for subscription setting changes.  There is currently no option
to run without some level of password protection for subscribers.

> They also shouldnt have to go to a separate webpage, but instead,
> could directly email the list for a subscription if need be.

This has been supported since day one.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw at kanga.nu
----------(*)                              Other: coder at kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--



From ckolar at admin.aurora.edu  Fri Jun 30 16:00:50 2000
From: ckolar at admin.aurora.edu (Christopher Kolar)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:00:50 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re: Question: signup box kluge
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000629162858.00d17a40@admin.aurora.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000630084953.00b1c750@admin.aurora.edu>

At 06:37 PM 6/29/2000, Jim Hebert wrote:
>[re: embed pw and pw-conf as hardcoded, hidden inputs]
>You could use either a server side solution (php, xssi, whatever) or a
>client side solution (javascript, etc) to give the two hidden password
>fields random values.
>jim
>ashamed at his stupid hacks sometimes =)

I was wondering how the code for random assignment of password is 
implemented in the admin's membership mass-subscribe function.  What if 
there was a reserved word, say RANDU, that the subscription script would 
recognize.  If you created a subscription box like I did, but in the hidden 
field put in RANDU, it would call the random algorithm that is used by mass 
subscribe to assign a password for the user.

Those tiny boxes sure are convenient, it would be nice if a little hook 
like this could be put in to support it.

--chris




From ncooler at nandomedia.com  Fri Jun 30 16:58:02 2000
From: ncooler at nandomedia.com (Neil Cooler)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:58:02 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re: Question: signup box kluge
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000629162858.00d17a40@admin.aurora.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20000630084953.00b1c750@admin.aurora.edu>
Message-ID: <395CB57A.C900C89@nandomedia.com>

I tried using the add_members script and I get the following error when
I use the --changes-msg=y line



[mailman at listserver mailman]$ add_members -n me --changes-msg=y
mcclatchy-news
Traceback (innermost last):
  File "/home/mailman/bin/add_members", line 218, in ?
    main()
  File "/home/mailman/bin/add_members", line 214, in main
    SendExplanation(ml, nmembers + dmembers)
  File "/home/mailman/bin/add_members", line 113, in SendExplanation
    HandlerAPI.DeliverToUser(mlist, msg)
NameError: HandlerAPI

Am I doing something wrong?  Is this a bug?

--Neil
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From jgray at lcdfnm.org  Fri Jun 30 17:47:14 2000
From: jgray at lcdfnm.org (Joseph Gray)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:47:14 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Beta3 & qrunner
Message-ID: <000801bfe2aa$75f59650$5f64020a@lcdfnm.org>

I was experimenting with beta2 over the last week and was eagerly awaiting
beta3. I installed beta3 and ran into two problems. The first was the
"newlist" bug, which is now fixed. The second is that everytime "qrunner" is
run by cron, an email is sent to root (via the mailman alias). Here is the
text of that email:

  Reading database ...
  Adding message to /home/mailman/archives/private/junk


  Writing mail ...
  Writing /home/mailman/archives/private/junk/index.html ...
  Writing /home/mailman/archives/private/junk/threads.html ...
  Writing database ...
  3 messages

I solved this for now by simply redirecting stdout to /dev/null in the
crontab. This was not a problem with beta2. What changed?

BTW, I am using MHonArc as an external archiver, if it matters. However, I
was also running MHonArc with beta2.

Despite these minor problems, I am very pleased with Mailman and am planning
on running some real mail lists with beta3 very soon (unless something major
blows up).




From siimex at spnetctg.com  Fri Jun  2 10:24:14 2000
From: siimex at spnetctg.com (SIIMEX)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 02:24:14 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Import of Home & Building Materials
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000602022354.00a22370@pop.spnetctg.com>

Dear Sir,

We introduce herewith ourselves as a leading Indenture and Importer and 
engaged in this line of trade since 1985.Mainly we are Importing
& Marketing All kinds of " Building materials of interior & Exterior for 
Home, Bank, Hotel, Office, Showroom, Shops, etc" in our country 
Bangladesh.We have our own Showroom & marketing channel in our country of 
all Principal Cities.So we are strongly capable to sell /Import your all 
Kinds of Building materials & products in our Bangladesh market.

We shall be very much pleased if you kindly send us your all products, 
Catalogues,with your Products Specification and information and with your 
best competitive C+Fc Chittagong, Bangladesh price for our study and to do 
further communication with you for our further proceeding to establish our 
future Business.

Bellow list of our regular Importable items :

1. Glass - Sheet glass, Mirror glass, Float glass, Design and Fabricated 
glass & reflective glass (Tempered & Non-Tempered)
For Curtain-wall and Window for commercial & Home Use.
2. Glass Film & Paper for Door & Window
3. Door & Window - PVC, UPVC, Aluminum, Laminated, Wood, Louver 
Ventilation, etc,
4. Hardwire - Lock, Role, European mini Hinges, Rubber Sliding Wheel, 
Rivet, Screw, Sliding door closure,
5. Overhead Door Closure, Emergency Exit Hardware, Door, Window and Home 
Security & Fittings Products
6. Lock - NHC Nylon indicator Lock, Handle, Sliding Door Lock, Digital / 
Card / Magnetic Lock,Power Controller box.
7. Gasket Moire,Sealant Gum, for Fabrication Door, Window Glass & 
Curtain-wall, etc
8. Laminated coated Steel Palate, Alcopla, Cross-T , Main -T, Angel,(Steel 
/ Galvanized) etc.
9. Fiberglass Alkali-resistant Window Screening Mesh ( net )
10. Vertical & Venetian Blinds (PVC & Fabric)Shower & Window Curtain, & 
Sofa cloth.
11. Various kinds of Latest Wall/Floor covering & Ceiling materials & 
Decorative sheets (Laminated) Etc.
12. PVC, Upvc Curtain-Wall & Ceiling materials
13. All others building materials for interior & Exterior- Use, for Home, 
Office, Bank, Building, etc
14. Scaffolding & Welded Steel Pipe, Various kinds of Stainless Steel -for 
Building Use
15. Gypsum Partitions & Ceilings materials for Wall & Ceiling Paneling
16. Floors & Floorings (Vitrified Tiles, PVC Tiles, etc)
17. Kitchen Cabinets, Bath Ideas, Faucets, Counter tops, Kitchen room Cabinets
18. Toilets / Pedestal/ Glass & Other Vanity Sinks, Sinks for kitchen & 
bar, Range Hoods
19. Sinks for Multiple Use, Wood and Glass, Showers / Saunas / Doors and 
Enclosures / Steam Units
20. Whirlpools and Soaking Tubs, Flooring, Towel Warmers
21. Decorative/Architectural glass, Artistic lighting
22. Carts / Furniture, Limited ability/mobility safety accessories
23. Accessories for the Bath / Kitchen
24. Laminated Wood for Cabinet, Computer Table,Chair,etc
25. BAMBOO Flooring
26. Hollow Glass Blocks & Clear Glass Block with Various Pattern & Design
27. All range of ceramic Tiles
28. Energy Saving Home & Building Materials
29. Vinyl Building Materials

Siimex
642, Haji Market 3rd floor
Sadarghat Road, Sadarghat
Chittagong, Bangladesh.

P.O.Box. 1188
Chittagong - 4000
Bangladesh.

Tel. + 88-031-614074 / 619410
Fax. + 88-031-614074 / 610938
Mobile. + 88-018 313 943
E-mail: Siimex at spnetctg.com

Note : Please send your products paper Catalogues /CD & with details by 
DHL/ EMS courier and please show the Invoice value Only $1.00 and put the 
DOCUMENTS word on the Samples/catalogues Packet,to easy take delivery.

Thanking you, waiting for your valued reply with your good advice.

With best Regards
A.K.Sikder


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