From barry at list.org  Mon Jan 16 16:13:37 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:13:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Fw: About Tokio Kikuchi
Message-ID: <20120116101337.25110084@limelight.wooz.org>

I'm sorry to forward some very sad news about one of our own from the Mailman
community.  If you've ever looked at the ACKNOWLEDGMENTS file you will see
this entry in the core contributors section:

    Tokio Kikuchi, Mailman's weatherman

Tokio Kikuchi was instrumental in our early internationalization efforts.  I
remember testing out one of his early patches which enabled Japanese support
in Mailman.  At a Python conference years ago, I started the branch and was
delighted to see the familiar Mailman admin pages come up in Japanese.  Of
course, I could not read it, but I happened to be sitting next to a native
speaker who confirmed that it was indeed correct Japanese.  That made me very
happy, and I'm proud of his ongoing contributions to Mailman in general and
internationalization in particular.  He will be missed.

If you would like to leave a note of your own, please see this page:

    http://wiki.list.org/display/COM/TokioKikuchi

The following is forwarded with permission.

-Barry

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:22:43 +0900
From: Atsuo Ishimoto <ishimoto at gembook.org>
To: barry at python.org
Subject: About Tokio Kikuchi


Hello,

I'm Japanese Python developer. You can see my name as an anuthor of
Python's PEP 3138.

Now, please let me inform you that Mr. Tokio Kikuchi, famous open
source developer and one of Mailman contributor, died at 14, Jan by
cancer.

http://www.kochinews.co.jp/?&nwSrl=284270&nwIW=1&nwVt=knd

Regards,

-- 
Atsuo Ishimoto
Mail: ishimoto at gembook.org
Blog: http://d.hatena.ne.jp/atsuoishimoto/
Twitter: atsuoishimoto
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From jeremy at tuxmachine.com  Wed Jan 18 11:29:02 2012
From: jeremy at tuxmachine.com (Jeremy Baron)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 05:29:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] i18n tools/infrastructure/community for mailman
Message-ID: <CAE-2OCZh=fP=t23VLyP6Py6yXjrgk6rm0NOFeGfupzwi0pwX9Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

A user from the Marathi Wikimedia community (an Indic language, ISO
639-2: mr) has recently requested mailman be translated to Marathi or
add support for it to translatewiki.net so that the community could do
it.

I replied[0] and pointed to your docs:
> See http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Internationalization (kinda recent)
> and http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Managing+Translations (ancient)

However, given you seem to be unhappy with your current status quo for
i18n on the v2 branch and v3 is (how far away from release? from beta?
I have no idea) I thought you might be interested in hearing about a
solution that could work with your current gettext files and other
templates: https://translatewiki.net

gettext is supported but I'm still inquiring about your templates
folder. (e.g. [1] vs. [2]). It could be that this requires some
additional PHP development, but it's rarely more than a day of
work[3].

You can host it yourself or you can use the hosted copy at
translatewiki.net. If you use the hosted copy then you can take
advantage of the existing community of experienced translators for
many languages who are then able to seamlessly work on mailman strings
in the same site they're familiar with from translating other projects
like MediaWiki, OpenStreetMap, StatusNet, etc. As one
translatewiki.net user just mentioned, "the biggest advantage of
having localisations done at translatewiki is its community".

Looking forward to your opinions. We're a heavy user of mailman at
Wikimedia, and we care a lot about language support. We have
Wikipedias in ~280 languages and Wikimedia has mailman lists in at
least ~67 languages.[4]

-Jeremy

P.S. I've been lurking in #mailman and I plan stick around there
(screen'd) a few weeks at least feel free to send any questions my way
on or off list or in the channel. If there's interest in using the
site, we can have a meeting with translatewiki.net staff and any
interested people from the mailman side.

[0] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/mediawiki-i18n/2012-January/000377.html
[1] http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/view/head:/templates/en/admlogin.html
[2] http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/view/head:/templates/nl/admlogin.html
[3] https://translatewiki.net/docs/Translate/html/FFS_8php.html
[4] I did some rough calculations based on what I could determine
guess per list with little work; here are #s of lists per language.
not perfect because I only gave each list one lang and there are some
with multiple. Used the public list overview @ lists.wikimedia.org.
> 110 en, 14 de,  9 es,  8 fr,  7 nl,  5 pt,  4 sv ru
>   3 zh uk tr sr pl ko fi
>   2 te ta ro no ms mr mk kn ja it hr hi he gu fa cs bn bg be bd
>   1 vi ur sw sk sah sa pa or nn my ml lb kok km ka is id ia hu hk
>     gd fil eu eo el dk da cak ca as ar als

From barry at python.org  Fri Jan 20 21:45:43 2012
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:45:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] i18n tools/infrastructure/community for mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAE-2OCZh=fP=t23VLyP6Py6yXjrgk6rm0NOFeGfupzwi0pwX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE-2OCZh=fP=t23VLyP6Py6yXjrgk6rm0NOFeGfupzwi0pwX9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120120154543.135af90f@limelight.wooz.org>

On Jan 18, 2012, at 05:29 AM, Jeremy Baron wrote:

>However, given you seem to be unhappy with your current status quo for
>i18n on the v2 branch and v3 is (how far away from release? from beta?
>I have no idea) I thought you might be interested in hearing about a
>solution that could work with your current gettext files and other
>templates: https://translatewiki.net

Jeremy and I chatted on IRC a bit.  I'll leave it to Mark to comment, but I
think the status quo works reasonably well for mm2, where the changes and
updates are fairly rare.

For mm3 though, I definitely want something better.  I had considered
Launchpad translations, since the project is hosted there, but the last time I
check, they had some strict requirements for file system layout of the
project's branch that didn't work so well for us.  So I think LP is not a
great option (if it were the only one, then I might consider adopting its
requirements, though I'd rather not).

>gettext is supported but I'm still inquiring about your templates
>folder. (e.g. [1] vs. [2]). It could be that this requires some
>additional PHP development, but it's rarely more than a day of
>work[3].

The templates are always the big PITA here.  It's more critical for the web-ui
project, but if we had a good templating language that supported i18n, and
were lightweight enough for the core (which has no web-ui), then it might be
okay to switch.  Otherwise, for the few text templates used by the core, I
think we'll need to just wedge them into the normal gettext catalog
framework.

>You can host it yourself or you can use the hosted copy at
>translatewiki.net. If you use the hosted copy then you can take
>advantage of the existing community of experienced translators for
>many languages who are then able to seamlessly work on mailman strings
>in the same site they're familiar with from translating other projects
>like MediaWiki, OpenStreetMap, StatusNet, etc. As one
>translatewiki.net user just mentioned, "the biggest advantage of
>having localisations done at translatewiki is its community".

Mailman being a GNU project imposes some additional requirements on us.
First, the software used to do the translations must be free software.  My
understanding in talking with Jeremy is that translatewiki, being based on
mediawiki, is free software.  We'd want to get some approval from the FSF for
this though, to avoid the headaches we've had with using Confluence as our
wiki engine.

Second, we have to ensure that anybody who contributes translations has signed
the appropriate paperwork with the FSF, either copyright assignments or
disclaimers.  Again, I would follow their lead here.

Launchpad translations handles this by requiring membership in a "gnu
translators" team.  Once you've signed the right papers, you can be added to
this team, and then you can translate for any GNU project on Launchpad.  I
don't know if translatewiki supports team membership and permissions that
would allow for a similar arrangement, but something that guarantees only
assigned translations are added to the Mailman project is a basic
requirement.

In further talking with Jeremy, it sounds like translatewiki pulls from our
trunk branch periodically and requires pushing to the trunk branch to update
translations.  I'd much rather have translatewiki push to its own branch
(i.e. not have write permissions to trunk), and then periodically submit merge
proposals which one of the core devs could then manually merge to trunk.  This
should all be doable with the Launchpad API.

>Looking forward to your opinions. We're a heavy user of mailman at
>Wikimedia, and we care a lot about language support. We have
>Wikipedias in ~280 languages and Wikimedia has mailman lists in at
>least ~67 languages.[4]

Excllent!  GNU Mailman innovated many of the i18n facilities in Python, and
I'm still proud of our language support.  It's critical we maintain this for
mm3.

Cheers,
-Barry

From barry at list.org  Wed Jan 25 16:19:26 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:19:26 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] GNU Mailman sprint at Pycon 2012
Message-ID: <20120125101926.78087ab0@resist.wooz.org>

Hey folks, it looks like we're going to have a quorum of core developers at
Pycon 2012 in Santa Clara, so we will definitely be sprinting on Mailman 3.
We'll be primarily working on the integration of the core engine with the
official Django-based web ui.  If you want to participate, kibbitz, or just
learn more about MM3, I highly encourage you to join us.

Remember, the Pycon sprints are free and you do not need to register for the
conference to attend.  Please do sign up on this page if you're going to join
us though, so we can plan sprint room sizes and such:

https://us.pycon.org/2012/community/sprints/projects/

If you haven't been to a Pycon before though, I highly recommend it.  There
are tons of great speakers and presentations, some great tutorials before the
conference starts, and always excellent BoFs and other events.  Attendance is
capped at 1500 though, so if you're thinking about it, JFDI already! :)

-Barry
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