From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul  1 02:46:55 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:46:55 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Using Pootle
In-Reply-To: <20080630180426.GL21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
References: <p06240800c3fb93a0f72f@[192.168.1.199]>	<90B310F8-E15B-46ED-AE64-DA2A67637B70@riverland.net.au>	<24159195-A763-44D6-A477-5A62C42B5740@list.org>	<16A200E3-FCEB-4367-97ED-56E98B965A17@riverland.net.au>	<E1CDC93C-B91C-49E6-B8AF-C45C8400D00D@list.org>	<4868EAF1.40200@zamirfamily.com>	<20080630144044.GI21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>	<20080630145119.GJ21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>	<cmu-lmtpd-96078-1214842783-1@postur.skrin.is>	<20080630170242.49CB7482AD@metalab.unc.edu>
	<20080630180426.GL21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <48697E7F.7020803@msapiro.net>

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Crist?bal Palmer wrote:

| Any other languages missing?


There are several in the table at
<http://garp.metalab.unc.edu:8080/projects/mailman/> that seem to be
pointing at empty or non-existent mailman.po files or have some other
problem which results in all zeros in the table.

These are Danish, French, German, Hungarian, Lithuanian, Slovenian,
Spanish and Swedish.

The following languages which have translations on both the 2.1 branch
and the 3.0 branch are totally missing: Estonian (et), Croatian (hr),
Interlingua (ia) and Norwegian (no).

There are three 2.1 translations that are not currently in 3.0. These
are Galician (gl), Hebrew (he) and Slovak (sk), although all three are
in the table at <http://garp.metalab.unc.edu:8080/projects/mailman/>.

There are issues between 2.1 and 3.0 that will be resolved, but aren't
yet. A couple of years ago the trunk which became the 3.0 branch was
changed to include the templates in the message catalog. This is good as
it puts all the translation in one place. However, since that was done,
there has been much updating including the addition of the above
mentioned three languages which is not reflected in the 3.0 branch.

So, we need to make a consistent base to work from. This could be the
2.1 branch as it has the most up to date translations, but it doesn't
have the templates in the message catalog. I am willing to work on this,
but right now, I need a little break.

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jul  1 20:04:44 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 11:04:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Mailman 2.1.11 final has been released.
In-Reply-To: <486930DE.6050202@msapiro.net>
References: <486930DE.6050202@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <486A71BC.3060105@msapiro.net>

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The release notes and NEWS file for Mailman 2.1.11 contains the
following innocuous looking item.

~    - Improved bounce loop detection and handling in BounceRunner.py.

This actually first appeared in 2.1.11rc2. It turns out this had an
unintended consequence, but I actually think it is a good thing.

The change involved bounces returned to the site list (mailman list)
- -bounces address. There was always code in BounceRunner.py to look at
bounces returned to the site list -bounces address to try to detect if
the bounce was a bounce of a notice to a list owner, and if so, to send
the bounce to the site list instead of processing it. This code never
worked right.

The main problem, is I don't in general know how to tell to what address
the bounced message was originally sent. If I did, there would never be
an unrecognized bounce. So part of the change in 2.1.11 rc2 and final is
to just forward to the site list owner any message that arrives to the
site list -bounces address so the owner can handle the bounce.

The unintended consequence is that bounces of password reminders will
also now go to the site list owner whereas before they were probably
just ignored or processed as unrecognized bounces to the site list.

Most of these bounces will probably be for dead addresses where the user
disabled delivery and forgot about the list and the address died and the
password reminders have been bouncing for a long time.

In the longer term, plain text passwords and reminders are going away,
but in the short term, the site list owner may get a lot of bounced
password reminders (possibly a whole lot in a large site) on the first
of the month following installation of this release.

I think the best way to deal with these is to remove the dead addresses
from the lists. Once this is done, the number of bounces on an ongoing
basis should be small.

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From barry at list.org  Tue Jul  1 20:57:38 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 14:57:38 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.11 final has been
	released.
In-Reply-To: <200807011840.m61IeRKV022201@julie.lostwells.net>
References: <200807011840.m61IeRKV022201@julie.lostwells.net>
Message-ID: <F32CB58B-B7E7-4193-8516-58D0E57E4610@list.org>

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On Jul 1, 2008, at 2:40 PM, Hank van Cleef wrote:

> I'm also concerned about this proposed scheme to discontinue montnly
> mailings.  It most definitely needs some mechanism whereby a user can
> reset or re-obtain their password without moderator intervention.  Our
> user base is just plain not password-savvy, and I'm concerned about
> the increase in moderator workload if the recovery method is similar
> to password resetting by root (the Unix method).

Don't worry, going forward we'll have a fairly typical password reset  
feature instead of the monthly reminder.  The other advantage of this  
is that we won't have to keep user passwords in our database  
unencrypted.

- -Barry

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From cmpalmer at metalab.unc.edu  Wed Jul  2 20:03:43 2008
From: cmpalmer at metalab.unc.edu (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Crist=F3bal?= Palmer)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 14:03:43 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Using Pootle
In-Reply-To: <48697E7F.7020803@msapiro.net>
References: <24159195-A763-44D6-A477-5A62C42B5740@list.org>
	<16A200E3-FCEB-4367-97ED-56E98B965A17@riverland.net.au>
	<E1CDC93C-B91C-49E6-B8AF-C45C8400D00D@list.org>
	<4868EAF1.40200@zamirfamily.com>
	<20080630144044.GI21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<20080630145119.GJ21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<cmu-lmtpd-96078-1214842783-1@postur.skrin.is>
	<20080630170242.49CB7482AD@metalab.unc.edu>
	<20080630180426.GL21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<48697E7F.7020803@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20080702180343.GA21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>

On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 05:46:55PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Crist?bal Palmer wrote:
>
> | Any other languages missing?
>
>
> There are several in the table at
> <http://garp.metalab.unc.edu:8080/projects/mailman/> that seem to be
> pointing at empty or non-existent mailman.po files or have some other
> problem which results in all zeros in the table.
>
> These are Danish, French, German, Hungarian, Lithuanian, Slovenian,
> Spanish and Swedish.

Fixed.

Having talked to the pootle devs, it seems the problem had to do with
the translate toolkit assuming utf8 until it got to the header that
declares the charset, which was Bad (tm). I've updated pootle.metalab
to use a newer version of the toolkit that closes that bug. Those
languages all show up properly now.

> The following languages which have translations on both the 2.1 branch
> and the 3.0 branch are totally missing: Estonian (et), Croatian (hr),
> Interlingua (ia) and Norwegian (no).
>
> There are three 2.1 translations that are not currently in 3.0. These
> are Galician (gl), Hebrew (he) and Slovak (sk), although all three are
> in the table at <http://garp.metalab.unc.edu:8080/projects/mailman/>.

(et), (hr), (ia), and (no) can be resolved by adding those languages
within pootle, but that may require knowing a bit about how plurals
are computed in those languages and some other details that I'm loathe
to guess at on my own. Anybody who has admin access to the
pootle.metalab web interface (currently me, Barry & Clytie) can add
those languages, but I'm not sure any of us knows what the "proper"
values are for the blanks in the form at the bottom of
http://pootle.metalab.unc.edu/admin/languages.html to add a language.

>
> There are issues between 2.1 and 3.0 that will be resolved, but aren't
> yet. A couple of years ago the trunk which became the 3.0 branch was
> changed to include the templates in the message catalog. This is good as
> it puts all the translation in one place. However, since that was done,
> there has been much updating including the addition of the above
> mentioned three languages which is not reflected in the 3.0 branch.
>
> So, we need to make a consistent base to work from. This could be the
> 2.1 branch as it has the most up to date translations, but it doesn't
> have the templates in the message catalog. I am willing to work on this,
> but right now, I need a little break.

Take your time. :)

Let me know what my next step is if y'all need me to make changes on
my end of things.

Cheers,
-- 
Crist?bal Palmer
ibiblio.org systems administrator

From barry at list.org  Thu Jul  3 07:12:13 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 01:12:13 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Using Pootle
In-Reply-To: <20080630145214.GA6724@nubol.oskuro.net>
References: <47D31C99.10103@msapiro.net>
	<Pine.A41.4.58.0803100949150.782356@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>
	<p06240800c3fb93a0f72f@[192.168.1.199]>
	<90B310F8-E15B-46ED-AE64-DA2A67637B70@riverland.net.au>
	<24159195-A763-44D6-A477-5A62C42B5740@list.org>
	<16A200E3-FCEB-4367-97ED-56E98B965A17@riverland.net.au>
	<E1CDC93C-B91C-49E6-B8AF-C45C8400D00D@list.org>
	<20080630145214.GA6724@nubol.oskuro.net>
Message-ID: <47BE490B-E00C-4FCF-BFB5-9D348E5262D9@list.org>

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On Jun 30, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Jordi Mallach wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 08:16:56AM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> Thanks Cristobal and Clytie for helping set this up.  I encourage all
>> translators to give this a chance so we can decide whether to move to
>> it officially, try something else, or keep the status quo.
>
> If it becomes "official", will we (language teams) have the option to
> opt-out and work like we recently did for the 2.0.11 release, using a
> Launchpad team and a bzr branch that can be pulled by you or Mark?
>
> That means that our language would be locked or something, to avoid  
> work
> duplication.

If we do adopt Pootle, I'd like to discourage teams from using  
alternatives to it.  If there are specific problems with Pootle in  
general, or our implementation in particular, it would be best if we  
could work with Cristobal and the Pootle devs to improve things.  This  
helps more free software benefit from our experience.

If it's really a problem, I suppose we could handle your team  
specially in the short term, using a bzr branch as you describe.

If your team has a workflow problem with Pootle, then I suspect other  
teams will have the same problems.  If we can't make Pootle attractive  
to all our teams then maybe Pootle isn't the answer for us.

Can you provide details on why you don't want to use it?

- -Barry

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From barry at list.org  Thu Jul  3 07:21:34 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 01:21:34 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Using Pootle
In-Reply-To: <48690764.4030808@zamirfamily.com>
References: <47D31C99.10103@msapiro.net>	<Pine.A41.4.58.0803100949150.782356@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>	<p06240800c3fb93a0f72f@[192.168.1.199]>	<90B310F8-E15B-46ED-AE64-DA2A67637B70@riverland.net.au>	<24159195-A763-44D6-A477-5A62C42B5740@list.org>	<16A200E3-FCEB-4367-97ED-56E98B965A17@riverland.net.au>	<E1CDC93C-B91C-49E6-B8AF-C45C8400D00D@list.org>	<4868EAF1.40200@zamirfamily.com>	<20080630144044.GI21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<20080630145119.GJ21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<48690764.4030808@zamirfamily.com>
Message-ID: <8B1FDC2B-0077-4BF7-94B2-8C3E1115D814@list.org>

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On Jun 30, 2008, at 12:18 PM, Dov Zamir wrote:

> Crist?bal Palmer wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 10:40:44AM -0400, Crist?bal Palmer wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 05:17:21PM +0300, Dov Zamir wrote:
>>>
>>>> ????? Barry Warsaw:
>>>> Hi Guys,
>>>>
>>>> Why don't I see Hebrew on the Pootle experimental site. Was I  
>>>> supposed  to do something to get it there?
>>>>
>>> Hmmm. The Hebrew (he/) directory is on disk from the bzr checkout,  
>>> but
>>> the web (pootle) interface doesn't show it. I'll check to see if
>>> there's something on the pootle end that I have to do to enable
>>> it. Clytie?  Any clues?
>>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I need the following info to add Hebrew from the web interface:
>> "special characters," "number of plurals," and "plural equation". The
>> line in the web interface for Swedish, for example:
>>
>> ISO	Full	Special	# of	plural		
>> code	Name	Chars	plurals	equation	
>>
>> sv	Swedish		2	(n != 1)	
>>
>> What would it look like for Hebrew? So far I have:
>>
>> he	Hebrew	...?
>>
>> Clytie and Barry have admin rights, to they can theoretically go and
>> add Hebrew here: http://pootle.metalab.unc.edu/admin/languages.html
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
> I'd be happy to add my 2 cents, but  I really have no idea what this  
> means :-(

This page has a pretty good overview of the plural forms problem,  
though implementation-wise, it's pretty Qt-specific:

http://doc.trolltech.com/qq/qq19-plurals.html

This page has some pretty good detail regarding plurals in GNU  
gettext, which I'm sure is what Pootle supports, and which is pretty  
close in spirit to Python's gettext implementation:

http://www.gnu.org/software/automake/manual/gettext/Plural-forms.html

In this specific case, I think the right values for Hebrew are:

# of plurals: 2
plural equation: (n != 1)

Cheers,
- -Barry

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From barry at python.org  Thu Jul  3 07:26:27 2008
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 01:26:27 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Using Pootle
In-Reply-To: <48697E7F.7020803@msapiro.net>
References: <p06240800c3fb93a0f72f@[192.168.1.199]>	<90B310F8-E15B-46ED-AE64-DA2A67637B70@riverland.net.au>	<24159195-A763-44D6-A477-5A62C42B5740@list.org>	<16A200E3-FCEB-4367-97ED-56E98B965A17@riverland.net.au>	<E1CDC93C-B91C-49E6-B8AF-C45C8400D00D@list.org>	<4868EAF1.40200@zamirfamily.com>	<20080630144044.GI21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>	<20080630145119.GJ21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>	<cmu-lmtpd-96078-1214842783-1@postur.skrin.is>	<20080630170242.49CB7482AD@metalab.unc.edu>
	<20080630180426.GL21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<48697E7F.7020803@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <67A0C7C0-13DC-410C-AB99-EFFC81FC8F0F@python.org>

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On Jun 30, 2008, at 8:46 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> There are issues between 2.1 and 3.0 that will be resolved, but aren't
> yet. A couple of years ago the trunk which became the 3.0 branch was
> changed to include the templates in the message catalog. This is  
> good as
> it puts all the translation in one place. However, since that was  
> done,
> there has been much updating including the addition of the above
> mentioned three languages which is not reflected in the 3.0 branch.
>
> So, we need to make a consistent base to work from. This could be the
> 2.1 branch as it has the most up to date translations, but it doesn't
> have the templates in the message catalog. I am willing to work on  
> this,
> but right now, I need a little break.

I agree that we should use the 2.1 branch as the best basis from which  
to start.  I think there will be much more similarity between the 2.1  
and (hopeful) 2.2 branches, all depending on what happens with the web  
u/i.

As for the templates, while I think moving them into the catalogs is a  
win over what we had, I still hope that we'll eventually (maybe just  
for 3.0) switch to a i18n-friendly templating engine, where only the  
translatable strings will be extracted into the catalog, with all the  
other HTML goo stripped out.  A translator should not have to worry  
about that stuff!

3.0 is a long way from needing translation, so let's concentrate on  
getting a good prototype based on the 2.1 strings, eventually  
migrating them to 2.2 as development on that branch ramps up.  I  
suspect there will be some decent overlap between 2.2 and 3.0.

- -Barry

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From barry at python.org  Thu Jul  3 07:39:50 2008
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 01:39:50 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Using Pootle
In-Reply-To: <20080702180343.GA21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
References: <24159195-A763-44D6-A477-5A62C42B5740@list.org>
	<16A200E3-FCEB-4367-97ED-56E98B965A17@riverland.net.au>
	<E1CDC93C-B91C-49E6-B8AF-C45C8400D00D@list.org>
	<4868EAF1.40200@zamirfamily.com>
	<20080630144044.GI21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<20080630145119.GJ21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<cmu-lmtpd-96078-1214842783-1@postur.skrin.is>
	<20080630170242.49CB7482AD@metalab.unc.edu>
	<20080630180426.GL21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<48697E7F.7020803@msapiro.net>
	<20080702180343.GA21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <2A2FC66A-794D-4E5D-A5D6-03FF403D4B2A@python.org>

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On Jul 2, 2008, at 2:03 PM, Crist?bal Palmer wrote:

> Let me know what my next step is if y'all need me to make changes on
> my end of things.

I feel like a complete idiot because I simply cannot find where to  
download the .po files from.  Have you figured that out yet?

Thanks,
- -Barry

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From linux at zamirfamily.com  Thu Jul  3 08:57:39 2008
From: linux at zamirfamily.com (Dov Zamir)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:57:39 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Using Pootle
In-Reply-To: <8B1FDC2B-0077-4BF7-94B2-8C3E1115D814@list.org>
References: <47D31C99.10103@msapiro.net>	<Pine.A41.4.58.0803100949150.782356@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>	<p06240800c3fb93a0f72f@[192.168.1.199]>	<90B310F8-E15B-46ED-AE64-DA2A67637B70@riverland.net.au>	<24159195-A763-44D6-A477-5A62C42B5740@list.org>	<16A200E3-FCEB-4367-97ED-56E98B965A17@riverland.net.au>	<E1CDC93C-B91C-49E6-B8AF-C45C8400D00D@list.org>	<4868EAF1.40200@zamirfamily.com>	<20080630144044.GI21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<20080630145119.GJ21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<48690764.4030808@zamirfamily.com>
	<8B1FDC2B-0077-4BF7-94B2-8C3E1115D814@list.org>
Message-ID: <486C7863.3010504@zamirfamily.com>

Barry Warsaw wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Jun 30, 2008, at 12:18 PM, Dov Zamir wrote:
>
>> Crist?bal Palmer wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 10:40:44AM -0400, Crist?bal Palmer wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 05:17:21PM +0300, Dov Zamir wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ????? Barry Warsaw:
>>>>> Hi Guys,
>>>>>
>>>>> Why don't I see Hebrew on the Pootle experimental site. Was I 
>>>>> supposed  to do something to get it there?
>>>>>
>>>> Hmmm. The Hebrew (he/) directory is on disk from the bzr checkout, but
>>>> the web (pootle) interface doesn't show it. I'll check to see if
>>>> there's something on the pootle end that I have to do to enable
>>>> it. Clytie?  Any clues?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I need the following info to add Hebrew from the web interface:
>>> "special characters," "number of plurals," and "plural equation". The
>>> line in the web interface for Swedish, for example:
>>>
>>> ISO    Full    Special    # of    plural       
>>> code    Name    Chars    plurals    equation   
>>>
>>> sv    Swedish        2    (n != 1)   
>>>
>>> What would it look like for Hebrew? So far I have:
>>>
>>> he    Hebrew    ...?
>>>
>>> Clytie and Barry have admin rights, to they can theoretically go and
>>> add Hebrew here: http://pootle.metalab.unc.edu/admin/languages.html
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>> I'd be happy to add my 2 cents, but  I really have no idea what this 
>> means :-(
>
> This page has a pretty good overview of the plural forms problem, 
> though implementation-wise, it's pretty Qt-specific:
>
> http://doc.trolltech.com/qq/qq19-plurals.html
>
> This page has some pretty good detail regarding plurals in GNU 
> gettext, which I'm sure is what Pootle supports, and which is pretty 
> close in spirit to Python's gettext implementation:
>
> http://www.gnu.org/software/automake/manual/gettext/Plural-forms.html
>
> In this specific case, I think the right values for Hebrew are:
>
> # of plurals: 2
> plural equation: (n != 1)
Thanks Barry,

I understand that someone already added that so that Hebrew now shows up?
>
> Cheers,
> - -Barry
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)
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> iEYEARECAAYFAkhsYd4ACgkQ2YZpQepbvXGnQgCdHS/0aU7UGoc5xDfxtI8kTaBt
> ZZgAni3B+NCo/KLO0Ccov+ZG0qlcazu9
> =B+zZ
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> !DSPAM:506,486c61ea167931410093335!


From clytie at riverland.net.au  Thu Jul  3 11:03:11 2008
From: clytie at riverland.net.au (Clytie Siddall)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 18:33:11 +0930
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Pootle introduction
In-Reply-To: <486C7863.3010504@zamirfamily.com>
References: <47D31C99.10103@msapiro.net>	<Pine.A41.4.58.0803100949150.782356@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>	<p06240800c3fb93a0f72f@[192.168.1.199]>	<90B310F8-E15B-46ED-AE64-DA2A67637B70@riverland.net.au>	<24159195-A763-44D6-A477-5A62C42B5740@list.org>	<16A200E3-FCEB-4367-97ED-56E98B965A17@riverland.net.au>	<E1CDC93C-B91C-49E6-B8AF-C45C8400D00D@list.org>	<4868EAF1.40200@zamirfamily.com>	<20080630144044.GI21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<20080630145119.GJ21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<48690764.4030808@zamirfamily.com>
	<8B1FDC2B-0077-4BF7-94B2-8C3E1115D814@list.org>
	<486C7863.3010504@zamirfamily.com>
Message-ID: <E7CBB50B-C05E-4920-907E-6C9083787F3C@riverland.net.au>

Hi everyone :)

Sorry I wasn't able to reply earlier. I'd like to answer some of your  
queries about Pootle.

Firstly, Pootle is a translation tool. I use it in several other i18n  
projects, and find it very helpful, because it gives us _more_  
options, not less.

ACCESS

Your current file(s) are available to you from any web browser, any  
time. The only people who can modify those files are the people who  
have registered and had translation rights assigned by your language  
team admin. You have complete control over what happens to your files.

If you are the Mailman Language Champion for your language, once you  
have registered with Pootle, please email me or Crist?bal with your  
Pootle username, so we can assign you admin rights on Pootle. This  
will mean an "Admin" link will appear next to your Mailman project on  
Pootle. Clicking on this link allows you to assign access rights to  
newly-registered translators.

People who have just registered and confirmed their registration have  
the right to View and Suggest translations, by default. This is a good  
way to introduce inexperienced translators to the task. They can  
Suggest translations (pressing the Suggest button), but not actually  
modify your files. You can login and check their suggestions, and give  
them feedback. More experienced translators can be assigned Translate  
rights, and there are other access rights, all completely under your  
control. Your project (translation of the software into your language)  
belongs to you. Nobody else can modify it in any way, unless you allow  
them to do so.

WORKFLOW

You can choose the workflow that suits you best: translate online,  
translate offline, or a combination of both. When you modify a file  
offline, you can submit it by uploading it (merge or overwrite) to  
Pootle. This is a much easier way to submit translation files. If you  
don't have upload access, you can simply email your file to your  
language-team leader.

In OpenOffice.org, for example, language teams keep their current  
files on Pootle, but each translator chooses the workflow that suits  
him or her most. Depending on the situation at the time, you might  
have half an hour free, so you can login from a public computer and  
translate some strings. But when you're at home, you may prefer to  
download the file and use your favourite offline translation editor.  
That's fine. Whatever you want to do, the current files will be on  
Pootle, available to you.

ANY LANGUAGE

Pootle comes with a wide range of pre-installed languages, so you can  
use Pootle in your own language. If your language is new to Pootle,  
all you have to do is email the Pootle admins (Crist?bal or me) and  
ask that we add your language to the server. Crist?bal, the Translate  
Wiki maintains a list of plurals expressions and language codes. [1]

If you would like to translate the Pootle interface to your language,  
please register with the Locamotion Pootle [2] and ask those admins to  
add you to their server. This is the Pootle where development and new  
interface translations occur. (It also hosts the Decathlon translation  
project: check it out. ;) )

DOWNLOADING

The Pootle docs (Docs and Help link, or [3]) contain everything you  
need to know about Pootle, so please read them. However, I'll go on  
with a summary here.

You can download your translation file(s) at any time from your Pootle  
project directory. Look for the "Zip Archive" link at the top of the  
page, to download a whole directory of files, or for the "PO format"  
link next to each file (when you've clicked on Show Editing  
Functions), to download a single file. As you can see, you can  
download your file in different formats.

Barry, if you want to download all the PO files at once, you're better  
off downloading them from bzr. Pootle splits the files into language- 
projects.

UPLOADING

If you have upload rights, each directory will include a file  
selection field and button in the top right-hand corner of the page.  
You can choose to Merge or Overwrite files. Unless your Pootle server  
is overloaded, you should use Merge, to avoid overwriting changes that  
have occurred since you downloaded your file. The changes are  
processed immediately: you can start editing that merged file as soon  
as you have uploaded it.

Barry, I strongly suggest we keep the most current files on Pootle  
(Mailman 3.0?), even for testing. We can upload all the different  
branches, as well, but our translation effort is best spent working on  
the current files.

BACKUP

Pootle is just a part of your workflow: please backup your work!  
Although Pootle does backup its day's work, it doesn't backup every  
single string as soon as you enter it. This would take up too much of  
its resources. So it's always wise to download your file or directory  
when you finish your editing session. That way, you have a local copy  
of your changes. You can take that away, and edit it offline, then  
merge it back up to Pootle again, later.

TRANSLATING

Once you click on Show Editing Functions, Pootle will show some links  
next to each file: the most commonly-used ones are:

Quick Translate ? translate only blank and fuzzy strings (good for  
updates)
Translate All ? go through the whole file (good for new translations,  
and for reviews)

For other functions, see the docs. ;)

Once you click on Quick Translate or Translate All, Pootle will take  
you to the first string. You will see buttons:

Back	? go back to the previous string
Ignore ? skip this string
Copy ? copy the original string into this field (good for formatted or  
complex strings)
Suggest ? don't modify the translation, but suggest a change (good for  
new translators and review)
Submit ? modify the file by implementing your current translation string

You can also extend or shrink the input field, using the buttons  
Larger and Smaller.

The comment field below is for translator comments, so you can leave  
messages for other translators, or read their messages.

Developer comments and msgctxt contextual information will be shown on  
the left-hand side, with the string header.

Note that Pootle supports syntax highlighting (a user feature-request  
recently implemented): those messy HTML templates from Mailman will be  
much easier to read!

QUESTIONS

Firstly, please read the introductory docs and try out the interface.  
If you have further questions, you're welcome to ask them here.

Also, each project has its own needs. The Pootle developers welcome  
your suggestions (including feature requests). Each version brings  
enhancements, especially when a new project starts using Pootle.  
Pootle gives us options, and what it learns from us also goes on to  
help others.

Please don't see Pootle as limiting your options in any way. It is  
there to give you more choices. You can go on doing things in exactly  
the way you always have, but simply accessing the current files from  
Pootle. Or you can try out some of Pootle's very useful features.

It's entirely up to you. :)

from Clytie

Vietnamese Free Software Translation Team
http://vnoss.net/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=projects:l10n

[1] http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/l10n/pluralforms

[2] http://pootle.locamotion.org/

[3] http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/pootle/index
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From clytie at riverland.net.au  Thu Jul  3 11:07:19 2008
From: clytie at riverland.net.au (Clytie Siddall)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 18:37:19 +0930
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] UTF-8 and PO files
Message-ID: <33D8718E-65C0-4C3A-8306-F49230832924@riverland.net.au>

Hi everyone :)

While setting up Pootle with the Mailman PO files, we noticed that a  
few long-standing translations are still using non-UTF-8 formats.  
(Most likely, UTF-8 was not available when that translation originated.)

While that is entirely up to you, we encourage you to convert your PO  
file(s) to UTF-8. This is the standard for FLOSS translation, and will  
avoid problems with tools which _assume_ UTF-8.

Fortunately, Pootle does not, but some of the newer tools do. So it  
could save you hassles later on.

UTF-8 is the superset of language encodings. It makes more sense for  
us all to be using it together. :)

from Clytie

Vietnamese Free Software Translation Team
http://vnoss.net/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=projects:l10n



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From barry at list.org  Thu Jul  3 14:17:10 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 08:17:10 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Using Pootle
In-Reply-To: <486C7863.3010504@zamirfamily.com>
References: <47D31C99.10103@msapiro.net>	<Pine.A41.4.58.0803100949150.782356@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>	<p06240800c3fb93a0f72f@[192.168.1.199]>	<90B310F8-E15B-46ED-AE64-DA2A67637B70@riverland.net.au>	<24159195-A763-44D6-A477-5A62C42B5740@list.org>	<16A200E3-FCEB-4367-97ED-56E98B965A17@riverland.net.au>	<E1CDC93C-B91C-49E6-B8AF-C45C8400D00D@list.org>	<4868EAF1.40200@zamirfamily.com>	<20080630144044.GI21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<20080630145119.GJ21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<48690764.4030808@zamirfamily.com>
	<8B1FDC2B-0077-4BF7-94B2-8C3E1115D814@list.org>
	<486C7863.3010504@zamirfamily.com>
Message-ID: <BC5CB9FC-5AB6-4F1C-84BB-043FF0BF9FC0@list.org>

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On Jul 3, 2008, at 2:57 AM, Dov Zamir wrote:
>>
> Thanks Barry,
>
> I understand that someone already added that so that Hebrew now  
> shows up?

It does.
- -Barry

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From barry at list.org  Thu Jul  3 15:33:15 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 09:33:15 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Pootle introduction
In-Reply-To: <E7CBB50B-C05E-4920-907E-6C9083787F3C@riverland.net.au>
References: <47D31C99.10103@msapiro.net>	<Pine.A41.4.58.0803100949150.782356@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>	<p06240800c3fb93a0f72f@[192.168.1.199]>	<90B310F8-E15B-46ED-AE64-DA2A67637B70@riverland.net.au>	<24159195-A763-44D6-A477-5A62C42B5740@list.org>	<16A200E3-FCEB-4367-97ED-56E98B965A17@riverland.net.au>	<E1CDC93C-B91C-49E6-B8AF-C45C8400D00D@list.org>	<4868EAF1.40200@zamirfamily.com>	<20080630144044.GI21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<20080630145119.GJ21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<48690764.4030808@zamirfamily.com>
	<8B1FDC2B-0077-4BF7-94B2-8C3E1115D814@list.org>
	<486C7863.3010504@zamirfamily.com>
	<E7CBB50B-C05E-4920-907E-6C9083787F3C@riverland.net.au>
Message-ID: <7D7EA0BB-31F7-4265-9AAB-5482D1B7DEEF@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi Clytie,

This was extremely helpful, thanks!  I've captured this on the wiki:

http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Pootle+primer

Just a couple of comments.

> DOWNLOADING
>
> The Pootle docs (Docs and Help link, or [3]) contain everything you  
> need to know about Pootle, so please read them. However, I'll go on  
> with a summary here.
>
> You can download your translation file(s) at any time from your  
> Pootle project directory. Look for the "Zip Archive" link at the top  
> of the page, to download a whole directory of files, or for the "PO  
> format" link next to each file (when you've clicked on Show Editing  
> Functions), to download a single file. As you can see, you can  
> download your file in different formats.

Ah, downloading was buried on the Show Editing Functions page.  I knew  
I had to be missing it!

> Barry, if you want to download all the PO files at once, you're  
> better off downloading them from bzr. Pootle splits the files into  
> language-projects.

When you say "download from bzr", I'm not sure what you mean.  Does  
Pootle's bzr integration actually publish its own branches?  If so,  
that would be very cool!

Ideally, I'd like for the translators to just do their thing, without  
regard to Mailman's release cycle.  (In practice though, we should  
give them a heads up of course.)  When we're ready to release we Push  
A Button to grab all the current translations and package them up into  
whatever form we need.  We can probably automate it all, screen  
scraping if we have to (though that sucks), but if we had access to  
those files through bzr, that would rock.

If possible, I'm sure we could set up a fake user on Launchpad for  
Pootle to push branches to, say once per day.  That would also be very  
cool because then we wouldn't have to fear for Cristobal's machine  
crashing.

> UPLOADING
>
> If you have upload rights, each directory will include a file  
> selection field and button in the top right-hand corner of the page.  
> You can choose to Merge or Overwrite files. Unless your Pootle  
> server is overloaded, you should use Merge, to avoid overwriting  
> changes that have occurred since you downloaded your file. The  
> changes are processed immediately: you can start editing that merged  
> file as soon as you have uploaded it.
>
> Barry, I strongly suggest we keep the most current files on Pootle  
> (Mailman 3.0?), even for testing. We can upload all the different  
> branches, as well, but our translation effort is best spent working  
> on the current files.

Agreed.  I really want to split the translations out of the main tree  
anyway, so I'm happy if they live on the Pootle server, or even  
better, on Launchpad.  As part of our release process, we can grab and  
combine everything.

> BACKUP
>
> Pootle is just a part of your workflow: please backup your work!  
> Although Pootle does backup its day's work, it doesn't backup every  
> single string as soon as you enter it. This would take up too much  
> of its resources. So it's always wise to download your file or  
> directory when you finish your editing session. That way, you have a  
> local copy of your changes. You can take that away, and edit it  
> offline, then merge it back up to Pootle again, later.

Does Pootle back the files up off-site?  See the push-to-Launchpad idea.

> Firstly, please read the introductory docs and try out the  
> interface. If you have further questions, you're welcome to ask them  
> here.

One other thing I think we need to be careful of.  I've been sadly too  
lax about this in the past, but we can do better now.  Let's make sure  
that any translator we give permission to has signed the necessary  
papers with the FSF.

http://translationproject.org/html/whydisclaim.html

If a translator has already disclaimed their translations, they'll be  
listed on this page:

http://translationproject.org/html/authors.html

I'll urge all Mailman translators to go ahead and send the disclaimer  
form now.

Cheers,
- -Barry

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From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Jul  3 16:49:33 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 07:49:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] UTF-8 and PO files
In-Reply-To: <33D8718E-65C0-4C3A-8306-F49230832924@riverland.net.au>
Message-ID: <PC1870200807030749330531338042f4@msapiro>

Clytie Siddall wrote:
>
>While that is entirely up to you, we encourage you to convert your PO  
>file(s) to UTF-8. This is the standard for FLOSS translation, and will  
>avoid problems with tools which _assume_ UTF-8.


A technical note. If you do convert your message catalog to utf-8
encoding (with iconv or however), you also need to do the same for the
templates, and the encoding in the add_language() entry at the end of
Mailman/Defaults.py.in needs to be changed as well.

I can help with any of this if necessary.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From cmpalmer at metalab.unc.edu  Thu Jul  3 18:50:18 2008
From: cmpalmer at metalab.unc.edu (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Crist=F3bal?= Palmer)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 12:50:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Pootle introduction
In-Reply-To: <7D7EA0BB-31F7-4265-9AAB-5482D1B7DEEF@list.org>
References: <16A200E3-FCEB-4367-97ED-56E98B965A17@riverland.net.au>
	<E1CDC93C-B91C-49E6-B8AF-C45C8400D00D@list.org>
	<4868EAF1.40200@zamirfamily.com>
	<20080630144044.GI21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<20080630145119.GJ21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<48690764.4030808@zamirfamily.com>
	<8B1FDC2B-0077-4BF7-94B2-8C3E1115D814@list.org>
	<486C7863.3010504@zamirfamily.com>
	<E7CBB50B-C05E-4920-907E-6C9083787F3C@riverland.net.au>
	<7D7EA0BB-31F7-4265-9AAB-5482D1B7DEEF@list.org>
Message-ID: <20080703165018.GE21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>

On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 09:33:15AM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi Clytie,
>
> This was extremely helpful, thanks!  I've captured this on the wiki:
>
> http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Pootle+primer
>
> Just a couple of comments.
>
>> DOWNLOADING
>>
>> The Pootle docs (Docs and Help link, or [3]) contain everything you  
>> need to know about Pootle, so please read them. However, I'll go on  
>> with a summary here.
>>
>> You can download your translation file(s) at any time from your Pootle 
>> project directory. Look for the "Zip Archive" link at the top of the 
>> page, to download a whole directory of files, or for the "PO format" 
>> link next to each file (when you've clicked on Show Editing  
>> Functions), to download a single file. As you can see, you can  
>> download your file in different formats.
>
> Ah, downloading was buried on the Show Editing Functions page.  I knew I 
> had to be missing it!
>
>> Barry, if you want to download all the PO files at once, you're better 
>> off downloading them from bzr. Pootle splits the files into  
>> language-projects.
>
> When you say "download from bzr", I'm not sure what you mean.  Does  
> Pootle's bzr integration actually publish its own branches?  If so, that 
> would be very cool!
>
> Ideally, I'd like for the translators to just do their thing, without  
> regard to Mailman's release cycle.  (In practice though, we should give 
> them a heads up of course.)  When we're ready to release we Push A Button 
> to grab all the current translations and package them up into whatever 
> form we need.  We can probably automate it all, screen scraping if we 
> have to (though that sucks), but if we had access to those files through 
> bzr, that would rock.
>
> If possible, I'm sure we could set up a fake user on Launchpad for  
> Pootle to push branches to, say once per day.  That would also be very  
> cool because then we wouldn't have to fear for Cristobal's machine  
> crashing.
>

On my machine there's a branch of lp:mailman/stable, and then a
checkout from that branch. I've then symlinked to a directory
(messages/) in that checkout. If there's a way to cron-ify the
publication of that checkout back to launchpad, that would be most
excellent. I would just set that up once and it could run nightly.

Cheers,
-- 
Crist?bal Palmer
ibiblio.org systems administrator

From clytie at riverland.net.au  Fri Jul  4 16:52:50 2008
From: clytie at riverland.net.au (Clytie Siddall)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 00:22:50 +0930
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Pootle introduction
In-Reply-To: <7D7EA0BB-31F7-4265-9AAB-5482D1B7DEEF@list.org>
References: <47D31C99.10103@msapiro.net>	<Pine.A41.4.58.0803100949150.782356@beluga.user.services.metu.edu.tr>	<p06240800c3fb93a0f72f@[192.168.1.199]>	<90B310F8-E15B-46ED-AE64-DA2A67637B70@riverland.net.au>	<24159195-A763-44D6-A477-5A62C42B5740@list.org>	<16A200E3-FCEB-4367-97ED-56E98B965A17@riverland.net.au>	<E1CDC93C-B91C-49E6-B8AF-C45C8400D00D@list.org>	<4868EAF1.40200@zamirfamily.com>	<20080630144044.GI21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<20080630145119.GJ21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<48690764.4030808@zamirfamily.com>
	<8B1FDC2B-0077-4BF7-94B2-8C3E1115D814@list.org>
	<486C7863.3010504@zamirfamily.com>
	<E7CBB50B-C05E-4920-907E-6C9083787F3C@riverland.net.au>
	<7D7EA0BB-31F7-4265-9AAB-5482D1B7DEEF@list.org>
Message-ID: <11BCAD23-6D29-4FCB-8D79-9CD1158F6142@riverland.net.au>

Hey Barry :)

On 03/07/2008, at 11:03 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>
> This was extremely helpful, thanks!  I've captured this on the wiki:
>
> http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Pootle+primer

I should have thought of that, sorry.
>
>
> Just a couple of comments.
>
> Ah, downloading was buried on the Show Editing Functions page.  I  
> knew I had to be missing it!

While Pootle is an excellent tool, its UI really does need to become  
more intuitive. There's a review process going on now, with some  
improvements already being tested. You can see some of the ideas here.  
[1] Please feel free to add your own! I'll keep you up-to-date with  
changes.
>
>
>> Barry, if you want to download all the PO files at once, you're  
>> better off downloading them from bzr. Pootle splits the files into  
>> language-projects.
>
> When you say "download from bzr", I'm not sure what you mean.  Does  
> Pootle's bzr integration actually publish its own branches?  If so,  
> that would be very cool!

No, Pootle syncs with Bzr, so the files should be the same on both  
servers. I don't know if Pootle can publish its own branch, if you  
would find that useful: if not, you could supply a Python script to  
make that happen. ;)

Most of Pootle's features and improvements have occurred because a  
user or admin asked for them. I asked for the source-control sync some  
time ago, starting with SVN, and requesting bzr specifically for  
Mailman. Pootle is essentially what we make of it. If you hang out on  
the Pootle list, you'll see how it all comes together.
>
>
> Ideally, I'd like for the translators to just do their thing,  
> without regard to Mailman's release cycle.  (In practice though, we  
> should give them a heads up of course.)  When we're ready to release  
> we Push A Button to grab all the current translations and package  
> them up into whatever form we need.  We can probably automate it  
> all, screen scraping if we have to (though that sucks), but if we  
> had access to those files through bzr, that would rock.

Since you have bzr sync, all you'll have to do is grab your files from  
the repo. Give us at least two weeks' warning before release, though.  
Then we can all update our Pootle files.

It would also be useful if you had an RSS feed for changes to the  
original strings. I don't know about other translators, but I tend to  
work first on the files sent to me (TP), or ones where I'm emailed  
about changes to them (Debian). Often I don't have time to scan my  
mailing lists. So RSS or email notification is a big time-saver, and  
raises the priority of your project with the time-scarce translator. ;)
>
>
> If possible, I'm sure we could set up a fake user on Launchpad for  
> Pootle to push branches to, say once per day.  That would also be  
> very cool because then we wouldn't have to fear for Cristobal's  
> machine crashing.

With bzr sync, you don't have to worry about that at all. You might  
lose some of a day's work: I don't know how often the sync is done.  
You can probably set that parameter yourself.
>>
>>
>> Barry, I strongly suggest we keep the most current files on Pootle  
>> (Mailman 3.0?), even for testing. We can upload all the different  
>> branches, as well, but our translation effort is best spent working  
>> on the current files.
>
> Agreed.  I really want to split the translations out of the main  
> tree anyway, so I'm happy if they live on the Pootle server, or even  
> better, on Launchpad.  As part of our release process, we can grab  
> and combine everything.

Again, since you have bzr sync, we can keep the translation files for  
all the active branches on Pootle. That gives us a one-stop shop: we  
can update whichever branch needs updating.
>
>
> Does Pootle back the files up off-site?  See the push-to-Launchpad  
> idea.

Unsure. The source-control sync gives you an offsite backup, anyway.  
Once Pootle had source-control sync, it may not have continued with a  
separate backup of the files.
>
>
> One other thing I think we need to be careful of.  I've been sadly  
> too lax about this in the past, but we can do better now.  Let's  
> make sure that any translator we give permission to has signed the  
> necessary papers with the FSF.
>
> http://translationproject.org/html/whydisclaim.html
>
> If a translator has already disclaimed their translations, they'll  
> be listed on this page:
>
> http://translationproject.org/html/authors.html
>
> I'll urge all Mailman translators to go ahead and send the  
> disclaimer form now.

Yes, please do. We need this done before we can assign access rights  
on Pootle. This disclaimer is useful to you, as well: it clears you  
for the Translation Project, for Mailman, and for other GNU projects.

from Clytie

Vietnamese Free Software Translation Team
http://vnoss.net/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=projects:l10n

[1] http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/pootle/ui_ideas
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From cmpalmer at metalab.unc.edu  Sun Jul  6 05:23:02 2008
From: cmpalmer at metalab.unc.edu (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Crist=F3bal?= Palmer)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 23:23:02 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Pootle introduction
In-Reply-To: <11BCAD23-6D29-4FCB-8D79-9CD1158F6142@riverland.net.au>
References: <E1CDC93C-B91C-49E6-B8AF-C45C8400D00D@list.org>
	<4868EAF1.40200@zamirfamily.com>
	<20080630144044.GI21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<20080630145119.GJ21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<48690764.4030808@zamirfamily.com>
	<8B1FDC2B-0077-4BF7-94B2-8C3E1115D814@list.org>
	<486C7863.3010504@zamirfamily.com>
	<E7CBB50B-C05E-4920-907E-6C9083787F3C@riverland.net.au>
	<7D7EA0BB-31F7-4265-9AAB-5482D1B7DEEF@list.org>
	<11BCAD23-6D29-4FCB-8D79-9CD1158F6142@riverland.net.au>
Message-ID: <20080706032302.GM21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>

On Sat, Jul 05, 2008 at 12:22:50AM +0930, Clytie Siddall wrote:
> Hey Barry :)
>
> On 03/07/2008, at 11:03 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>>

<snip />

>> If possible, I'm sure we could set up a fake user on Launchpad for  
>> Pootle to push branches to, say once per day.  That would also be very 
>> cool because then we wouldn't have to fear for Cristobal's machine 
>> crashing.
>
> With bzr sync, you don't have to worry about that at all. You might lose 
> some of a day's work: I don't know how often the sync is done. You can 
> probably set that parameter yourself.

To be clear, I have not set up ANYthing that would push from garp (the
machine hosting pootle.metalab) back to anywhere else with bzr. If
there's some sort of automatic sync that pootle is trying to make
happen, I don't know how it's doing it or where other than garp it's
going. Honestly I think everything happening in pootle is currently
staying on garp.

I think we need to either have it publish a
http://pootle.metalab.unc.edu/bzr/mailman/ branch or, as Barry
suggested, have it push back to launchpad. Both of those would require
some setup and I'd like to hear what's optimal before I go digging to
figure out how to actually do it. :)

>> Does Pootle back the files up off-site?  See the push-to-Launchpad  
>> idea.
>
> Unsure. The source-control sync gives you an offsite backup, anyway.  
> Once Pootle had source-control sync, it may not have continued with a  
> separate backup of the files.

See above. afaik, there's no sync going off of garp at this time.

Cheers,
-- 
Crist?bal Palmer
ibiblio.org systems administrator

From barry at python.org  Sun Jul  6 16:41:23 2008
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 10:41:23 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Pootle introduction
In-Reply-To: <20080706032302.GM21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
References: <E1CDC93C-B91C-49E6-B8AF-C45C8400D00D@list.org>
	<4868EAF1.40200@zamirfamily.com>
	<20080630144044.GI21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<20080630145119.GJ21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<48690764.4030808@zamirfamily.com>
	<8B1FDC2B-0077-4BF7-94B2-8C3E1115D814@list.org>
	<486C7863.3010504@zamirfamily.com>
	<E7CBB50B-C05E-4920-907E-6C9083787F3C@riverland.net.au>
	<7D7EA0BB-31F7-4265-9AAB-5482D1B7DEEF@list.org>
	<11BCAD23-6D29-4FCB-8D79-9CD1158F6142@riverland.net.au>
	<20080706032302.GM21190@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <4C940833-AB19-47A2-BD7A-AE28DA1686A6@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jul 5, 2008, at 11:23 PM, Crist?bal Palmer wrote:

> To be clear, I have not set up ANYthing that would push from garp (the
> machine hosting pootle.metalab) back to anywhere else with bzr. If
> there's some sort of automatic sync that pootle is trying to make
> happen, I don't know how it's doing it or where other than garp it's
> going. Honestly I think everything happening in pootle is currently
> staying on garp.
>
> I think we need to either have it publish a
> http://pootle.metalab.unc.edu/bzr/mailman/ branch or, as Barry
> suggested, have it push back to launchpad. Both of those would require
> some setup and I'd like to hear what's optimal before I go digging to
> figure out how to actually do it. :)

I think we have two options.

The first is to use 'bzr serve' on garp to publish read-only branches  
from the pootle server.  This would require us (the core developers)  
to pull branches from garp for integration into the main line.  This  
probably has the advantage of being relatively simple to set up, but  
it has two disadvantages that I can think of.

- - Those branches are less discoverable because they are in a different  
location than all the other Mailman bzr branches.  We can mitigate  
this by documenting them in the wiki.

- - We add more dependencies on garp.  I'm highly grateful to Cristobal  
for setting this up, but what happens if that machine crashes or some  
other technical problem puts garp off line?  All those branches go  
with it.

The second option, AFAICT, is to create a fake user on Launchpad and  
have some cron job on garp push branch updates to this fake user every  
night.  I like this, and think it would be fairly simple to set up,  
but I talked to one of the LP/bzr guys a few nights ago, and he said  
they discourage the use of fake users like this.  His suggestion was  
to create an ssh keypair and associate it with one of real users,  
letting this cron job push to one of our accounts.  Because the  
privkey would necessarily have no passphrase, and because it's an  
automated process, I personally would not feel comfortable doing this  
with my account.  I doubt anybody else who thinks of security would  
either.

Comments are welcome.  For now, I'm favoring the 'fake' user approach.

- -Barry

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From barry at list.org  Sun Jul  6 17:52:45 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 11:52:45 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Donate to GNU Mailman!
Message-ID: <1890C687-2335-408B-84E2-602571A19A3D@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I'm very pleased to announce that you can now donate to the GNU  
Mailman project!

https://www.fsf.org/donate/directed-donations/gnumailman/

The Free Software Foundation has established a directed donation fund  
for GNU Mailman.  Most of your donation goes directly to GNU Mailman,  
with a small percentage going to help the FSF.  You can now support  
both great organizations with one donation.

As quoted on the donation page:

"Your donation will be used to obtain equipment, services, development  
resources and other support for the GNU Mailman project.  All  
expenditures will be approved by a committee chosen from core GNU  
Mailman maintainers, and will be fully disclosed on the main GNU  
Mailman website."

Currently myself, Mark Sapiro and Terri Oda are serving as members of  
the informal Mailman Steering Committee.

I'd like to thank Peter Brown at the FSF for help getting this set up  
over there. I'd also like to thank Jeff Marshall and Jeff Breidenbach  
from the Mail-Archive.com for their initial generous donation.  As  
part of this kick-start, Mailman 3 will make it possible to easily  
archive your public mailing lists at www.mail-archive.com, including a  
permalink in the footer of all messages.

More details on the donation program are available on the wiki:

http://wiki.list.org/x/R4BJ

Feel free to comment on that page with any questions, and we'll make  
sure to update the page with any additional information.

Please consider supporting both GNU Mailman and the FSF with your  
donation.  We thank you.

- -Barry

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From cmpalmer at metalab.unc.edu  Wed Jul  9 03:09:50 2008
From: cmpalmer at metalab.unc.edu (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Crist=F3bal?= Palmer)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:09:50 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] pootle.metalab.unc.edu maintenance reboot
Message-ID: <20080709010950.GS1774@garp.metalab.unc.edu>

pootle.metalab needs a new kernel and will be going down for a reboot
in one hour (shortly after 22:00 EDT). Pootle should be unavailable
for less than 10 minutes total.

If in the future people would like/need more lead time before such an
outage, please let me know.

Cheers,
-- 
Crist?bal Palmer
ibiblio.org systems administrator

From cmpalmer at metalab.unc.edu  Wed Jul  9 04:17:34 2008
From: cmpalmer at metalab.unc.edu (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Crist=F3bal?= Palmer)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:17:34 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] pootle.metalab.unc.edu maintenance reboot
In-Reply-To: <20080709010950.GS1774@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
References: <20080709010950.GS1774@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <20080709021734.GA6226@garp.metalab.unc.edu>

On Tue, Jul 08, 2008 at 09:09:50PM -0400, Crist?bal Palmer wrote:
> pootle.metalab needs a new kernel and will be going down for a reboot
> in one hour (shortly after 22:00 EDT). Pootle should be unavailable
> for less than 10 minutes total.

The reboot was clean. This maintenance is complete.

Cheers,
-- 
Crist?bal Palmer
ibiblio.org systems administrator

From barry at python.org  Wed Jul  9 04:54:04 2008
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:54:04 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] pootle.metalab.unc.edu maintenance reboot
In-Reply-To: <20080709021734.GA6226@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
References: <20080709010950.GS1774@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
	<20080709021734.GA6226@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <59298756-D002-4735-89C6-9543669D4B0B@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On Jul 8, 2008, at 10:17 PM, Crist?bal Palmer wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 08, 2008 at 09:09:50PM -0400, Crist?bal Palmer wrote:
>> pootle.metalab needs a new kernel and will be going down for a reboot
>> in one hour (shortly after 22:00 EDT). Pootle should be unavailable
>> for less than 10 minutes total.
>
> The reboot was clean. This maintenance is complete.

Thanks for the heads up!
- -Barry

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From barry at python.org  Wed Jul  9 21:16:54 2008
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:16:54 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Generating pot file from templates/en
In-Reply-To: <4871C621.7070104@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
References: <4871C621.7070104@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <84F65A19-22B4-4C5E-8B43-D9D1DA6D42AD@python.org>

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On Jul 7, 2008, at 3:30 AM, Tokio Kikuchi wrote:

> Hi i18n users,
>
> Sometime ago, I wrote a script to generate pot entries from  
> templates/en
> files, because web based translation is on the discussion and the
> translation tool then was only prepared for po files. It looks like
> Pootle doesn't translate templates files also.
>
> Please find the scripts bin/templ2pot.py and bin/po2templ.py from
> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Emailman-coders/mailman/3.0/files
> and have a look.  Your feedback is appreciated.

Hi Tokio,

I think this is because Pootle currently only translates the MM2.1  
messages.  As development ramps up on 2.2 and 3.0, we should begin to  
translate those trees as well (though I still hope our templating  
choice will allow us to translate just the text messages and not the  
entire templates).

- -Barry

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From pi at beobide.net  Thu Jul 17 08:39:00 2008
From: pi at beobide.net (Piarres Beobide)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:39:00 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Problems to upgrade/commit in mailman.pootle
Message-ID: <4b6e4ae70807162339jf536de8tc9ed3bff0ea359da@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone:

As I said to friedel and Clytie in IRC I have trouble to update/commit
the translation of Basque mailman in pootle [1].

As I see and I checked with the admin (clytie) I have enough rights to
make these actions.

Logs in browser:

Commit:

[Errno 2] No such file or directory

Update:

[BZR] cat failed for
'/root/stable/messages/eu/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po': bzr: ERROR: Not a
branch: "/root/stable/messages/.bzr/branch/".

I hope this can help to fix this error.

[1] - http://pootle.metalab.unc.edu

From clytie at riverland.net.au  Sat Jul 19 14:53:00 2008
From: clytie at riverland.net.au (Clytie Siddall)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 22:23:00 +0930
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Problems to upgrade/commit in mailman.pootle
In-Reply-To: <4b6e4ae70807162339jf536de8tc9ed3bff0ea359da@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b6e4ae70807162339jf536de8tc9ed3bff0ea359da@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8AB3E813-99E2-472E-B9FC-F736086326DB@riverland.net.au>


On 17/07/2008, at 4:09 PM, Piarres Beobide wrote:

> Hello everyone:
>
> As I said to friedel and Clytie in IRC I have trouble to update/commit
> the translation of Basque mailman in pootle [1].
>
> As I see and I checked with the admin (clytie) I have enough rights to
> make these actions.
>
> Logs in browser:
>
> Commit:
>
> [Errno 2] No such file or directory
>
> Update:
>
> [BZR] cat failed for
> '/root/stable/messages/eu/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po': bzr: ERROR: Not a
> branch: "/root/stable/messages/.bzr/branch/".
>
> I hope this can help to fix this error.
>
> [1] - http://pootle.metalab.unc.edu

Piarres, judging from what Crist?bal and Barry have said in earlier  
messages, I'm not sure the source-control sync function is being used  
yet on the Mailman Pootle.

I know Crist?bal imported the current files onto Pootle from bzr, but  
that may be all. We may not yet be linked actively to the repository.

So you trying to upgrade/commit at this stage might be like trying to  
make a phone call before the phone line has been connected. ;)

from Clytie

Vietnamese Free Software Translation Team
http://vnoss.net/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=projects:l10n



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From cmpalmer at metalab.unc.edu  Sat Jul 19 20:11:40 2008
From: cmpalmer at metalab.unc.edu (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Crist=F3bal?= Palmer)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 14:11:40 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Problems to upgrade/commit in mailman.pootle
In-Reply-To: <8AB3E813-99E2-472E-B9FC-F736086326DB@riverland.net.au>
References: <4b6e4ae70807162339jf536de8tc9ed3bff0ea359da@mail.gmail.com>
	<8AB3E813-99E2-472E-B9FC-F736086326DB@riverland.net.au>
Message-ID: <20080719181140.GM27387@garp.metalab.unc.edu>

On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 10:23:00PM +0930, Clytie Siddall wrote:
>
>> [BZR] cat failed for
>> '/root/stable/messages/eu/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po': bzr: ERROR: Not a
>> branch: "/root/stable/messages/.bzr/branch/".
>>
>> I hope this can help to fix this error.
>>
>> [1] - http://pootle.metalab.unc.edu
>
> Piarres, judging from what Crist?bal and Barry have said in earlier  
> messages, I'm not sure the source-control sync function is being used  
> yet on the Mailman Pootle.
>
> I know Crist?bal imported the current files onto Pootle from bzr, but  
> that may be all. We may not yet be linked actively to the repository.
>
> So you trying to upgrade/commit at this stage might be like trying to  
> make a phone call before the phone line has been connected. ;)

Good point: the local bzr isn't being published to in a way that
somebody could issue a 'bzr branch http://example.org/mailman' and get
what is on garp. That said, it shouldn't be failing the way that it's
failing.... I think. :)

Cheers,
-- 
Crist?bal Palmer
ibiblio.org systems administrator

From cmpalmer at metalab.unc.edu  Mon Jul 21 02:38:02 2008
From: cmpalmer at metalab.unc.edu (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Crist=F3bal?= Palmer)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:38:02 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] pootle.metalab.unc.edu maintenance reboot at 22:00
	Eastern tonight.
Message-ID: <20080721003802.GA21642@garp.metalab.unc.edu>

That's about 1h20min from now.

Should be down for under 10 minutes.

Cheers,
-- 
Crist?bal Palmer
ibiblio.org systems administrator