From barry at python.org Fri Oct 3 22:14:37 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Fri Oct 3 22:14:46 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Croatian translation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1065233677.24192.145.camel@anthem> On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 05:29, Nino Katic wrote: > Just to inform you that I have started a Croatian translation of > Mailman... Thanks Nino. Can I add you to the i18n.html file? -Barry From marius at gazduire.ro Sat Oct 4 12:58:49 2003 From: marius at gazduire.ro (Marius Herea / Gazduire.ro) Date: Sat Oct 4 12:58:50 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] romanian translation Message-ID: <00ab01c38a98$c944feb0$21946050@urban> This one is for other Romanians on the list, in order to get in touch for the translation. Salut, daca doresti sa ne apucam de traducere, astept sa ma contactezi. Eu lucrez la situl unei asociatii si nu am cum sa-l lansez pana nu rezolv problema cu mailman-ul :) Regards, Marius From nkatic at public.srce.hr Mon Oct 6 03:24:12 2003 From: nkatic at public.srce.hr (Nino Katic) Date: Mon Oct 6 03:24:46 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Croatian translation In-Reply-To: <1065233677.24192.145.camel@anthem> References: <1065233677.24192.145.camel@anthem> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Oct 2003, Barry Warsaw wrote: > On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 05:29, Nino Katic wrote: > > Just to inform you that I have started a Croatian translation of > > Mailman... > > Thanks Nino. Can I add you to the i18n.html file? Yes, the translastion should be finished by 15.10.03 but without unix script translations (btw. is it necessery to translate those scripts?). Best regards, Nino From interdist at myrealbox.com Mon Oct 6 21:59:03 2003 From: interdist at myrealbox.com (Sergey Tyrin) Date: Mon Oct 6 21:59:04 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Esperanto translation Message-ID: <1065491943.8489bda0interdist@myrealbox.com> Hi, I've talked to Marcio and he has agreeded to cooperative work on the translation of Mailman to Esperanto, to speed up the process. [more info on Esperanto can be found at: www.esperanto.net] I will lead the translation as I have more profound language knowledge. I can also assist with the Hebrew translation in case "Rabbi" or someone else decides to champion it. My question is: as I'm an only-Windows user, will the tools described in README-I18N work for me? What utility can I use to work with the CVS? With best regards, Serg?y. From barry at python.org Tue Oct 7 17:41:34 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Tue Oct 7 17:41:40 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Esperanto translation In-Reply-To: <1065491943.8489bda0interdist@myrealbox.com> References: <1065491943.8489bda0interdist@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <1065562894.18519.14.camel@anthem> On Mon, 2003-10-06 at 21:59, Sergey Tyrin wrote: > Hi, > > I've talked to Marcio and he has agreeded to cooperative work on the translation of Mailman to Esperanto, to speed up the process. [more info on Esperanto can be found at: www.esperanto.net] > I will lead the translation as I have more profound language knowledge. Great, I'll add your name to i18n.html > I can also assist with the Hebrew translation in case "Rabbi" or someone else decides to champion it. Could you coordinate and let me know? > My question is: as I'm an only-Windows user, will the tools described in README-I18N work for me? What utility can I use to work with the CVS? Well, you can certainly use po-mode in Emacs on Windows, but other tools like KBabel probably won't work. ;) I'm not sure what the best tool for Windows users is since I don't use that platform. However, if you find some good tools, let me know and I'll add it to README-I18N.en. -Barry From barry at python.org Tue Oct 7 17:45:15 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Tue Oct 7 17:45:21 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Croatian translation In-Reply-To: References: <1065233677.24192.145.camel@anthem> Message-ID: <1065563114.18519.16.camel@anthem> On Mon, 2003-10-06 at 03:24, Nino Katic wrote: > Yes, the translastion should be finished by 15.10.03 but without unix > script translations (btw. is it necessery to translate those scripts?). I do add their docstrings to the .po file because I think it's useful to translate them. You don't have to translate everything in order to submit a new language -- you can always add those later and send me an update. -Barry From oli at edal.net Mon Oct 6 13:22:22 2003 From: oli at edal.net (Oli) Date: Fri Oct 10 08:22:14 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Icelandic? Message-ID: <001901c38c2e$68e9c180$6801a8c0@logmannastofan.is> Has mailman been translated to icelandic? Kind regards, Oli From barry at python.org Fri Oct 10 08:28:32 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Fri Oct 10 08:28:37 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Icelandic? In-Reply-To: <001901c38c2e$68e9c180$6801a8c0@logmannastofan.is> References: <001901c38c2e$68e9c180$6801a8c0@logmannastofan.is> Message-ID: <1065788912.23296.493.camel@anthem> On Mon, 2003-10-06 at 13:22, Oli wrote: > Has mailman been translated to icelandic? Not yet, but that would be cool. Will you volunteer? -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-i18n/attachments/20031010/64319175/attachment.bin From barry at python.org Fri Oct 10 15:05:23 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Fri Oct 10 15:05:28 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Should we join the Translation Project? Message-ID: <1065812723.23296.976.camel@anthem> One of the biggest pains for me lately has been managing the .po file catalogs across the HEAD and the 2.1-maint branch. Don't get me wrong, you guys have done a superb job of managing the i18n stuff, and you have definitely helped make my life easier, but it seems that the po files, the templates, and cvs just don't mix well. Things are going to get worse as the head diverges from the 2.1-maint branch. This is going to start happening soon as I start to work on Mailman 2.2. We had talked before about moving Mailman's i18n work to the Translation Project[1], and I think now's the perfect time to revisit that. I don't have any direct experience with TP, so first, I'm wondering who out there has, and what you think about it. My impressions from reading the site are that, while incomplete in some ways, it provides some useful facilities that will help separate the concerns of translators and Mailman developers. The major trade-off appears to be that you translators will lose a bit of independence, since you'll be working within the umbrella of TP language teams. What you gain for that is hopefully more help from other members of your language team. I'm pretty sure you can still concentrate your volunteer efforts on translating Mailman though. The alternative for going to TP would be for me to pull the messages subdir out of the top-level directory, and manage that outside of any CVS branches. It would take a little bit of cvs weaving to get a source build of Mailman from CVS, but I don't think that would be too painful. Note that I'm already planning on doing some CVS reorganization in preparation for 2.2 (more on that to the -developers list later). The other i18n change I'm planning is to adopt ZPT for the templates. I think we don't have to wait for MM3.0 for that, and it will have many great advantages. For i18n, the major advantages is that it means you will no longer have to translate whole templates -- we can mark translatable strings in the ZPT, and extract them to the .pot file, so there's only one set of texts you need to translate. Thoughts? It seems relatively easy to register with TP, and start working with them, and if you all are generally in favor of this, I'd like to do it sooner rather than later. -Barry [1] http://www2.iro.umontreal.ca/~gnutra/po/HTML/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-i18n/attachments/20031010/7d45cba4/attachment.bin From pioppo at ferrara.linux.it Fri Oct 10 15:52:00 2003 From: pioppo at ferrara.linux.it (Simone Piunno) Date: Fri Oct 10 15:43:22 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Should we join the Translation Project? In-Reply-To: <1065812723.23296.976.camel@anthem> References: <1065812723.23296.976.camel@anthem> Message-ID: <200310102152.00694.pioppo@ferrara.linux.it> On Friday 10 October 2003 21:05, Barry Warsaw wrote: > One of the biggest pains for me lately has been managing the .po file > catalogs across the HEAD and the 2.1-maint branch. Personally I wouldn't have problems managing HEAD and 2.1-maint for italian as two different file sets, tracked separately, and in fact I'm already doing this since at least 2.1.1 (you should have noted I always commit changes to the right branch or to both). If you leave us this burden you won't have to backport anymore, but I don't know if other translators would feel like it. > We had talked before about moving Mailman's i18n work to > the Translation Project[1], and I think now's the perfect time to > revisit that. > I don't have any direct experience with TP, so first, I'm wondering who > out there has, and what you think about it. I have no experience with TP (even if I'm enlisted in their site) and I'm neutral on this. I even signed their disclaimer. http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gnutra/HTML/disclaim.html > The alternative for going to TP would be for me to pull the messages > subdir out of the top-level directory, and manage that outside of any > CVS branches. Where's the difference between this option and just stopping backports, letting us track branches as different trees? > The other i18n change I'm planning is to adopt ZPT for the templates. I > think we don't have to wait for MM3.0 for that, and it will have many > great advantages. For i18n, the major advantages is that it means you > will no longer have to translate whole templates -- we can mark > translatable strings in the ZPT, and extract them to the .pot file, so > there's only one set of texts you need to translate. I have experience with ZPT-i18n only through plone+localizer. In my experience, translating a full text (as a full template) is way easier than translating small pieces (like in .po), even when the full text is intermixed with tags. Furthermore, AFAIK marking in ZPT is tricky and error prone. On the plus side, separating template structure from strings is good for stability, cause then you're free to change the english template and the new structure will be immediatly available for other languages. Regards, Simone -- Adde parvum parvo magnus acervus erit -- Ovidio From barry at python.org Fri Oct 10 19:48:55 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Fri Oct 10 19:49:01 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Should we join the Translation Project? In-Reply-To: <200310102152.00694.pioppo@ferrara.linux.it> References: <1065812723.23296.976.camel@anthem> <200310102152.00694.pioppo@ferrara.linux.it> Message-ID: <1065829734.23296.992.camel@anthem> On Fri, 2003-10-10 at 15:52, Simone Piunno wrote: > On Friday 10 October 2003 21:05, Barry Warsaw wrote: > > > One of the biggest pains for me lately has been managing the .po file > > catalogs across the HEAD and the 2.1-maint branch. > > Personally I wouldn't have problems managing HEAD and 2.1-maint for italian as > two different file sets, tracked separately, and in fact I'm already doing > this since at least 2.1.1 (you should have noted I always commit changes to > the right branch or to both). Yep, and thanks! But not everyone is as comfortable with cvs as you are, so I wonder how big a burden the current arrangement is on translators. > If you leave us this burden you won't have to backport anymore, but I don't > know if other translators would feel like it. That's what I want to know. It's going to be basically impossible for me to backport any more, so if the current arrangement means that one or the other translation gets neglected, I'd like to find a better solution. > > We had talked before about moving Mailman's i18n work to > > the Translation Project[1], and I think now's the perfect time to > > revisit that. > > I don't have any direct experience with TP, so first, I'm wondering who > > out there has, and what you think about it. > > I have no experience with TP (even if I'm enlisted in their site) and I'm > neutral on this. I even signed their disclaimer. > > http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gnutra/HTML/disclaim.html > > > The alternative for going to TP would be for me to pull the messages > > subdir out of the top-level directory, and manage that outside of any > > CVS branches. > > Where's the difference between this option and just stopping backports, > letting us track branches as different trees? The difference is that, if we pulled messages out and de-branched them, I'd make sure mailman.pot was the union of all the head and maint branch texts, so you'd only have one .po file to translate. > > The other i18n change I'm planning is to adopt ZPT for the templates. I > > think we don't have to wait for MM3.0 for that, and it will have many > > great advantages. For i18n, the major advantages is that it means you > > will no longer have to translate whole templates -- we can mark > > translatable strings in the ZPT, and extract them to the .pot file, so > > there's only one set of texts you need to translate. > > I have experience with ZPT-i18n only through plone+localizer. In my > experience, translating a full text (as a full template) is way easier than > translating small pieces (like in .po), even when the full text is intermixed > with tags. Definitely. One lesson I've learned is that in some languages, it's impossible to accurately translate sentence fragments. If I do ZPT the u/i, I'll try my hardest to make sure the sentence is the smallest unit of translation. > Furthermore, AFAIK marking in ZPT is tricky and error prone. > On the plus side, separating template structure from strings is good for > stability, cause then you're free to change the english template and the new > structure will be immediatly available for other languages. Exactly. Another big goal of mine is to get rid of all the crufty u/i generation from Python code, i.e. the admin interface. Moving to ZPT would allow us to greatly improve the usability and look of the u/i, and at the same time, make it much easier for others to change the default look to match a site they're integrating with. -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-i18n/attachments/20031010/cc702620/attachment.bin From sawickib at iem.pw.edu.pl Sat Oct 11 05:52:46 2003 From: sawickib at iem.pw.edu.pl (Bartosz Sawicki) Date: Sat Oct 11 05:44:29 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Should we join the Translation Project? In-Reply-To: <200310102152.00694.pioppo@ferrara.linux.it> References: <1065812723.23296.976.camel@anthem> <200310102152.00694.pioppo@ferrara.linux.it> Message-ID: <3F87D2EE.8050704@iem.pw.edu.pl> >>We had talked before about moving Mailman's i18n work to >>the Translation Project[1], and I think now's the perfect time to >>revisit that. >>I don't have any direct experience with TP, so first, I'm wondering who >>out there has, and what you think about it. > > I have no experience with TP (even if I'm enlisted in their site) and I'm > neutral on this. I even signed their disclaimer. > http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gnutra/HTML/disclaim.html So you are lucky, I don't sign and send this disclaimer, so propably i'll have to wait more than month to be registered. I think that the most of Mailman translators are in the same situation. TP is great, but especially for projects that don't have own i18n teams. They get chance to be translated into many languages. Mailman already has been translated, so i'm wondering if joining TP will make more mess that this is worth. On other hand, Mailman translators can make TP stronger. Stronger language teams can translate more GNU software, and that sounds nice. Conclusion: I think, that merging Mailman translations with TP is better for TP than for Mailman. Personally, Mailman is closer for me, so I'm neutral :) BArtek From barry at python.org Sat Oct 11 08:48:46 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Sat Oct 11 08:48:55 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Should we join the Translation Project? In-Reply-To: <3F87D2EE.8050704@iem.pw.edu.pl> References: <1065812723.23296.976.camel@anthem> <200310102152.00694.pioppo@ferrara.linux.it> <3F87D2EE.8050704@iem.pw.edu.pl> Message-ID: <1065876526.23296.1047.camel@anthem> On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 05:52, Bartosz Sawicki wrote: > >>We had talked before about moving Mailman's i18n work to > >>the Translation Project[1], and I think now's the perfect time to > >>revisit that. > >>I don't have any direct experience with TP, so first, I'm wondering who > >>out there has, and what you think about it. > > > > I have no experience with TP (even if I'm enlisted in their site) and I'm > > neutral on this. I even signed their disclaimer. > > http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gnutra/HTML/disclaim.html > > So you are lucky, I don't sign and send this disclaimer, so propably > i'll have to wait more than month to be registered. I think that the > most of Mailman translators are in the same situation. I would try to arrange with Francois so that we could import all our existing po files, and allow a grace period on the disclaimer. Truth be told, I should be more diligent about getting translators to sign such disclaimers anyway. I definitely wouldn't want that to hold up progress, so I'd opt for a grace period of say 3 months. > TP is great, but especially for projects that don't have own i18n teams. > They get chance to be translated into many languages. Mailman already > has been translated, so i'm wondering if joining TP will make more mess > that this is worth. > > On other hand, Mailman translators can make TP stronger. Stronger > language teams can translate more GNU software, and that sounds nice. > > Conclusion: I think, that merging Mailman translations with TP is better > for TP than for Mailman. > Personally, Mailman is closer for me, so I'm neutral :) Thanks for the feedback. So far, it sounds like a -0 for moving to TP. -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-i18n/attachments/20031011/951bdff0/attachment.bin From martin at v.loewis.de Sat Oct 11 10:22:06 2003 From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=) Date: Sat Oct 11 10:22:22 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Should we join the Translation Project? In-Reply-To: <1065876526.23296.1047.camel@anthem> References: <1065812723.23296.976.camel@anthem> <200310102152.00694.pioppo@ferrara.linux.it> <3F87D2EE.8050704@iem.pw.edu.pl> <1065876526.23296.1047.camel@anthem> Message-ID: <3F88120E.9030607@v.loewis.de> Barry Warsaw wrote: > I would try to arrange with Francois so that we could import all our > existing po files, and allow a grace period on the disclaimer. I'd like to clarify two things: first, Fran?ois is no longer coordinating the TP; it is now Karl Eichwalder and myself. Second, submission of disclaimers should be independent of TP participation: copyright procedures for translators should be decided within the project - the TP can only offer to enforce the procedures, it cannot define them. That said, projects that are part of the GNU project should have copyright assignments, translation disclaimers, and so on - atleast RMS tells us that this is how things should be within the GNU project. Regards, Martin From barry at python.org Sat Oct 11 10:37:29 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Sat Oct 11 10:37:38 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Should we join the Translation Project? In-Reply-To: <3F88120E.9030607@v.loewis.de> References: <1065812723.23296.976.camel@anthem> <200310102152.00694.pioppo@ferrara.linux.it> <3F87D2EE.8050704@iem.pw.edu.pl> <1065876526.23296.1047.camel@anthem> <3F88120E.9030607@v.loewis.de> Message-ID: <1065883049.23296.1064.camel@anthem> On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 10:22, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote: > Barry Warsaw wrote: > > I would try to arrange with Francois so that we could import all our > > existing po files, and allow a grace period on the disclaimer. > > I'd like to clarify two things: first, Fran?ois is no longer > coordinating the TP; it is now Karl Eichwalder and myself. Ah, good to know, thanks. > Second, > submission of disclaimers should be independent of TP participation: > copyright procedures for translators should be decided within the > project - the TP can only offer to enforce the procedures, it cannot > define them. Good, then we could implement a grace period for getting disclaimers in. How easy is it to import our existing .po files? > That said, projects that are part of the GNU project should have > copyright assignments, translation disclaimers, and so on - atleast RMS > tells us that this is how things should be within the GNU project. Definitely. Mailman's translators should read the disclaimer and expect to send them in to the FSF, regardless of whether we move to the TP or not. I've been lax about this, and I'd like to start getting these ducks in a row. Besides that Martin, do you have any other input which might help us decide whether to move Mailman into the TP or not? -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-i18n/attachments/20031011/cc6dea4f/attachment.bin From interdist at myrealbox.com Sat Oct 11 14:54:48 2003 From: interdist at myrealbox.com (Sergey Tyrin) Date: Sat Oct 11 14:54:51 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Esperanto translation Message-ID: <1065898488.621f6340interdist@myrealbox.com> Is there any possible place where we could test the translation as it progresses? Maybe you can set up something temporary at your place, Barry? I' ve talked to the hosting company who I'm paying for webspace, but they told me it's impossible to arrange that kind of testing, because it invloves root access... From pioppo at ferrara.linux.it Sat Oct 11 15:25:30 2003 From: pioppo at ferrara.linux.it (Simone Piunno) Date: Sat Oct 11 15:16:19 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Esperanto translation In-Reply-To: <1065898488.621f6340interdist@myrealbox.com> References: <1065898488.621f6340interdist@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <200310112125.30836.pioppo@ferrara.linux.it> On Saturday 11 October 2003 20:54, Sergey Tyrin wrote: > Is there any possible place where we could test the translation as it > progresses? Maybe you can set up something temporary at your place, Barry? > I' ve talked to the hosting company who I'm paying for webspace, but they > told me it's impossible to arrange that kind of testing, because it > invloves root access... I believe the best you can do is... to install it on your own PC! Mailman runs even on desktops and installing it yourself you can really improve your translation, because otherwise you couldn't understand what certain .po strings mean. Ok, I must admit that connecting a normal mailbox to a desktop mailman can be difficult, but experimenting with the GUI and CLI should be really easy. -- Adde parvum parvo magnus acervus erit -- Ovidio From martin at v.loewis.de Sat Oct 11 17:46:45 2003 From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=) Date: Sat Oct 11 17:46:52 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Should we join the Translation Project? In-Reply-To: <1065883049.23296.1064.camel@anthem> References: <1065812723.23296.976.camel@anthem> <200310102152.00694.pioppo@ferrara.linux.it> <3F87D2EE.8050704@iem.pw.edu.pl> <1065876526.23296.1047.camel@anthem> <3F88120E.9030607@v.loewis.de> <1065883049.23296.1064.camel@anthem> Message-ID: <3F887A45.7060409@v.loewis.de> Barry Warsaw wrote: > Good, then we could implement a grace period for getting disclaimers > in. How easy is it to import our existing .po files? Importing the PO files can be done very quickly - e.g. submitting the URL of a distribution file to translation@iro.umontreal.ca would be sufficient. However, the mailman challenge might be incorporation of the HTML templates. For this, we have no precedence, yet. I would suggest to use similar procedures: email submission of new revisions of HTML template files by the translators; likewise email distribution of new versions of the English "master" documents to translators. In PO files, both the Project-Id-Version and the POT-Creation-Date are used by the TP robot to establish consistency, allowing to determine whether a certain translation has been revised or not. For HTML templates, I recommend a similar versioning scheme: define a constantly-increasing version of these files (either per file, or globally for all files), and put them into the template. In addition, put a time stamp into the template indicating when it was last changed. So a translated HTML file would contain a) the version number of the English file (project-id-version) b) the modification date of the English file (pot-creation-date) c) the modification date of the translation (po-revision-date) This allows translators to find out what changes need to be done to what document, even if a translator leaves and a new one joins. It might also allow mailman to determine whether to display translated or English documents, e.g. if the translated document is of an "incompatible" version. > Besides that Martin, do you have any other input which might help us > decide whether to move Mailman into the TP or not? For quite some time now, the TP has the notion of "external" (to the TP) translations. This allows translators to submit their work directly to the maintainer (e.g. through CVS) if they wish so. On the TP pages, the status of these translations will be "external" - telling team members that they don't need to look into this translation (in the past, they would start working on a translation, only to find out it already exists). Translators would need to "join" their teams, which basically means they need to introduce themselves to the team leader of their respective language, indicating that they do the mailman translation. Whether or not they join the team's mailing list, and whether or not they also look at the other work of the team is their choice. Joining the team mailing list is recommended, of course. Regards, Martin From interdist at myrealbox.com Sat Oct 11 18:11:39 2003 From: interdist at myrealbox.com (Sergey Tyrin) Date: Sat Oct 11 18:11:48 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Esperanto translation Message-ID: <1065910299.8b318760interdist@myrealbox.com> Simone Piunno wrote: > > Is there any possible place where we could test the translation as it > > progresses? Maybe you can set up something temporary at your place, Barry? > > I believe the best you can do is... to install it on your own PC! I am in an urge need of the instructions, how the hell one can tweak the Windows station to be able to run Mailman and *nix commands! From barry at python.org Sat Oct 11 21:25:18 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Sat Oct 11 21:25:29 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Should we join the Translation Project? In-Reply-To: <3F887A45.7060409@v.loewis.de> References: <1065812723.23296.976.camel@anthem> <200310102152.00694.pioppo@ferrara.linux.it> <3F87D2EE.8050704@iem.pw.edu.pl> <1065876526.23296.1047.camel@anthem> <3F88120E.9030607@v.loewis.de> <1065883049.23296.1064.camel@anthem> <3F887A45.7060409@v.loewis.de> Message-ID: <1065921917.2216.2.camel@anthem> On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 17:46, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote: > Importing the PO files can be done very quickly - e.g. submitting > the URL of a distribution file to translation@iro.umontreal.ca would be > sufficient. Cool. > However, the mailman challenge might be incorporation of the HTML > templates. I'm actually much less worried about these, since I plan to move to ZPT, which means that translators would not need to do whole-template translations any more. We can extract translatable strings from the ZPT and put them in the pot file. > For quite some time now, the TP has the notion of "external" (to the TP) > translations. This allows translators to submit their work directly to > the maintainer (e.g. through CVS) if they wish so. On the TP pages, the > status of these translations will be "external" - telling team members > that they don't need to look into this translation (in the past, they > would start working on a translation, only to find out it already > exists). > > Translators would need to "join" their teams, which basically means they > need to introduce themselves to the team leader of their respective > language, indicating that they do the mailman translation. Whether or > not they join the team's mailing list, and whether or not they also look > at the other work of the team is their choice. Joining the team mailing > list is recommended, of course. Cool, thanks for the info. I still leave it up to the i18n folks to decide which way to go. -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-i18n/attachments/20031011/e187a795/attachment.bin From barry at python.org Sat Oct 11 21:52:09 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Sat Oct 11 21:52:19 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Esperanto translation In-Reply-To: <200310112125.30836.pioppo@ferrara.linux.it> References: <1065898488.621f6340interdist@myrealbox.com> <200310112125.30836.pioppo@ferrara.linux.it> Message-ID: <1065923528.2216.22.camel@anthem> On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 15:25, Simone Piunno wrote: > I believe the best you can do is... to install it on your own PC! This is probably the best advice. If it's impossible, I can probably arrange to install it on the playground list on python.org. -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-i18n/attachments/20031011/07283e3e/attachment.bin From tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp Sun Oct 12 08:19:37 2003 From: tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp (Tokio Kikuchi) Date: Sun Oct 12 08:19:59 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Should we join the Translation Project? In-Reply-To: <1065921917.2216.2.camel@anthem> References: <1065812723.23296.976.camel@anthem> <200310102152.00694.pioppo@ferrara.linux.it> <3F87D2EE.8050704@iem.pw.edu.pl> <1065876526.23296.1047.camel@anthem> <3F88120E.9030607@v.loewis.de> <1065883049.23296.1064.camel@anthem> <3F887A45.7060409@v.loewis.de> <1065921917.2216.2.camel@anthem> Message-ID: <3F8946D9.9090506@is.kochi-u.ac.jp> Hi Barry, Barry Warsaw wrote: >>However, the mailman challenge might be incorporation of the HTML >>templates. > > > I'm actually much less worried about these, since I plan to move to ZPT, > which means that translators would not need to do whole-template > translations any more. We can extract translatable strings from the ZPT > and put them in the pot file. Can a list owner edit his template for customization ? -- Tokio Kikuchi, tkikuchi@ is.kochi-u.ac.jp http://weather.is.kochi-u.ac.jp/ From barry at python.org Sun Oct 12 14:28:26 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Sun Oct 12 14:28:41 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Should we join the Translation Project? In-Reply-To: <3F8946D9.9090506@is.kochi-u.ac.jp> References: <1065812723.23296.976.camel@anthem> <200310102152.00694.pioppo@ferrara.linux.it> <3F87D2EE.8050704@iem.pw.edu.pl> <1065876526.23296.1047.camel@anthem> <3F88120E.9030607@v.loewis.de> <1065883049.23296.1064.camel@anthem> <3F887A45.7060409@v.loewis.de> <1065921917.2216.2.camel@anthem> <3F8946D9.9090506@is.kochi-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <1065983306.2216.27.camel@anthem> On Sun, 2003-10-12 at 08:19, Tokio Kikuchi wrote: > > I'm actually much less worried about these, since I plan to move to ZPT, > > which means that translators would not need to do whole-template > > translations any more. We can extract translatable strings from the ZPT > > and put them in the pot file. > > Can a list owner edit his template for customization ? I think we can still allow that, but it will hopefully be less necessary. E.g. things like disabling the "you can post to the list via this address" text for announce-only lists should be handled by conditionals in the ZPT instead of having to edit the html. -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-i18n/attachments/20031012/23e65afb/attachment.bin From robert at cataloniahosting.com Mon Oct 13 07:13:56 2003 From: robert at cataloniahosting.com (Robert Garrigós) Date: Mon Oct 13 07:14:19 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] catalan translatino Message-ID: We have the .po file already translated into catalan and one of the testers is asking me whether that file contains the text for the mails mailman sends and the html templates text. Checking the mailman files, I can see these files: admindbdetails.html admindbpreamble.html admindbsummary.html adminsubscribeack.txt adminunsubscribeack.txt emptyarchive.html Do we need to translate those files as well? Thanks. Robert Garrigos From jordi at sindominio.net Mon Oct 13 07:17:37 2003 From: jordi at sindominio.net (Jordi Mallach) Date: Mon Oct 13 07:17:42 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Should we join the Translation Project? In-Reply-To: <1065883049.23296.1064.camel@anthem> References: <1065812723.23296.976.camel@anthem> <200310102152.00694.pioppo@ferrara.linux.it> <3F87D2EE.8050704@iem.pw.edu.pl> <1065876526.23296.1047.camel@anthem> <3F88120E.9030607@v.loewis.de> <1065883049.23296.1064.camel@anthem> Message-ID: <20031013111737.GA21968@nubol.int.oskuro.net> Hi! On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 10:37:29AM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote: > Besides that Martin, do you have any other input which might help us > decide whether to move Mailman into the TP or not? Speaking as a translator with experience at the TP and as module maintainer (for mailutils and nano at the TP), I think moving to the TP is a good idea, but having in mind one of the biggest drawbacks: The TP works with translations "post-release". This means: if nano 1.2.3 is released and it contains 3 new strings, the POT will be sent to the TP after the release, and the translators will feed translations with the 3 new strings added, but these changes will be included in 1.2.4. In short, the TP, many times, works one step behind the upstream releases. Of course, this can be easily solved sending a 1.2.3-pre1 tarball to the TP a week or so before the release, so translators can have a bit of time to update their translatiosn before the release. Not every module in the TP does that, though. Jordi -- Jordi Mallach P?rez -- Debian developer http://www.debian.org/ jordi@sindominio.net jordi@debian.org http://www.sindominio.net/ GnuPG public key information available at http://oskuro.net/~jordi/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-i18n/attachments/20031013/30d34ec6/attachment.bin From nkatic at public.srce.hr Mon Oct 13 10:06:30 2003 From: nkatic at public.srce.hr (Nino Katic) Date: Mon Oct 13 10:06:38 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Croatian translation Message-ID: Hi, I'm almost finish with croatian translation (without unix scripts translations) but i'm having some troubles making it work. I tried msgfmt the croatian.po file and it was processed normally, without errors, creating the proper mailman.mo file. I also added add_language line to the Defaults.py, but when I chose Croatian language for default (from the web page interface) I still got those pages in english? So, what's wrong here? I did everything like in README-I18N.txt Regards, Nino From barry at python.org Mon Oct 13 10:09:28 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon Oct 13 10:09:36 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] catalan translatino In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1066054167.13602.34.camel@anthem> On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 07:13, Robert Garrig?s wrote: > We have the .po file already translated into catalan and one of the testers is asking me whether that file contains the text for the mails mailman sends and the html templates text. Checking the mailman files, I can see these files: > > admindbdetails.html > admindbpreamble.html > admindbsummary.html > adminsubscribeack.txt > adminunsubscribeack.txt > emptyarchive.html > > Do we need to translate those files as well? Yes, you need to translate those template files too. -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-i18n/attachments/20031013/e8d8ed42/attachment.bin From barry at python.org Mon Oct 13 10:25:32 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon Oct 13 10:25:36 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Should we join the Translation Project? In-Reply-To: <20031013111737.GA21968@nubol.int.oskuro.net> References: <1065812723.23296.976.camel@anthem> <200310102152.00694.pioppo@ferrara.linux.it> <3F87D2EE.8050704@iem.pw.edu.pl> <1065876526.23296.1047.camel@anthem> <3F88120E.9030607@v.loewis.de> <1065883049.23296.1064.camel@anthem> <20031013111737.GA21968@nubol.int.oskuro.net> Message-ID: <1066055131.13602.50.camel@anthem> On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 07:17, Jordi Mallach wrote: > Hi! > > On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 10:37:29AM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote: > > Besides that Martin, do you have any other input which might help us > > decide whether to move Mailman into the TP or not? > > Speaking as a translator with experience at the TP and as module > maintainer (for mailutils and nano at the TP), I think moving to the TP > is a good idea, but having in mind one of the biggest drawbacks: > > The TP works with translations "post-release". This means: if nano 1.2.3 > is released and it contains 3 new strings, the POT will be sent to the > TP after the release, and the translators will feed translations with > the 3 new strings added, but these changes will be included in 1.2.4. In > short, the TP, many times, works one step behind the upstream releases. > > Of course, this can be easily solved sending a 1.2.3-pre1 tarball to the > TP a week or so before the release, so translators can have a bit of > time to update their translatiosn before the release. Not every module > in the TP does that, though. Good to know! I already try to update the .po files before a point release and long before a final release. I can definitely keep up this tradition. -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-i18n/attachments/20031013/be3680eb/attachment.bin From barry at python.org Mon Oct 13 10:30:32 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon Oct 13 10:30:37 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Croatian translation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1066055432.13602.52.camel@anthem> On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 10:06, Nino Katic wrote: > Hi, > > I'm almost finish with croatian translation (without unix scripts > translations) but i'm having some troubles making it work. I tried msgfmt > the croatian.po file and it was processed normally, without errors, > creating the proper mailman.mo file. I also added add_language line to > the Defaults.py, but when I chose Croatian language for default (from > the web page interface) I still got those pages in english? So, what's > wrong here? I did everything like in README-I18N.txt Not sure, but if you want to send me the tarball that I can unpack at the top level, and the Defaults.py.in changes, I can give it a shot here. -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-i18n/attachments/20031013/e86dfe55/attachment.bin From liuce at hcycom.com Tue Oct 14 20:56:30 2003 From: liuce at hcycom.com (=?gb2312?B?wfWy3w==?=) Date: Tue Oct 14 20:56:54 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] i found some bugs Message-ID: <20031015085185.SM01292@yayv> bWFpbG1hbi1pMThuo6zE+rrDo6ENCglJbiB0aGUgZmlsZSAkbWFpbG1hbi9NYWlsbWFuL1F1ZXVl L0FyY2hSdW5uZXIucHkgLCB0aGUgX19kb2NfXyBpcyAiIiJPdXRnb2luZyBxdWV1ZSBydW5uZXIu IiIiLiBJUyB0aGUgX19kb2NfXyAiIiJBcmNoIHF1ZXVlIHJ1bm5lciIiIj8NCiAgICBXaGVuIGEg bWFpbCB3aXRoIGEgYXR0YWNobWVudCwgYW5kIHRoZSBhdHRhY2htZW50IG5hbWUgaXMgZW5jb2Rp bmcgYnkgYmFzZTY0LCBtYWlsbWFuIGNhbid0IGdlbmVyYXRlIGEgcmlnaHQgbGluayB0byB0aGlz IGF0dGFjaG1lbnQgaW4gdGhlIHBhZ2UgaW4gQXJjaGl2ZXMuDQqhoaGhDQoNCqGhoaGhoaGhoaGh oaGhoaHWwg0KwPGjoQ0KIAkJCQkNCqGhoaGhoaGhoaGhoaGhoaGhoaGhoaGhoaGhoaHB9bLfDQqh oaGhoaGhoaGhoaGhoaGhoaGhoaGhoaGhoaGhbGl1Y2VAaGN5Y29tLmNvbQ0KoaGhoaGhoaGhoaGh oaGhoaGhoaGhoaGhoaGhoaGhoaGhoTIwMDMtMTAtMTUNCj0gPSA9ID0gPSA9ID0gPSA9ID0gPSA9 ID0gPSA9ID0gPSA9ID0gPSA9ID0gDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIA0KILGxIL6pILuqILO/INH0IM2oINDFILy8IMr1INPQ IM/eINTwIMjOILmrIMu+DQogQmVpamluZyBIQ1lDT00gQ29tbXVuaWNhdGlvbiBUZWNobm9sb2dp ZXMgQ28uLExURC4gDQogtdggINa3OiCxsb6pytC6o7Xtx/jL/tS6wMrH79SwvNc4usUNCiDTyiAg seA6IDEwMDA4MyANCiC15yAgu7A6ICgwMTApIDYyMDE4MDM3oaoxMDI0DQogytYgILv6o7oxMzY5 MzUwMjE3MQ0KIEUtbWFpbDogIGxpdWNlQGhjeWNvbS5jb20NCiDN+CAg1rc6ICB3d3cuaGN5Y29t LmNvbSANCg== From anders at norrbring.biz Mon Oct 27 19:23:03 2003 From: anders at norrbring.biz (Anders Norrbring) Date: Mon Oct 27 19:23:19 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] CVS checkout... Message-ID: <200310280016.h9S0GIuU030524@ormen2.basenet.levonline.com> Hiya all! I'm trying to get started in the translation work for Swedish, but I'm not too friendly with the CVS system... I use TortoiseCVS for Windows to check out files, and I wonder HOW DO I DO...? To just check out the latest files? There are several branches in the CVS tree, but I can't see the use of downloading them all, just the latest versions, both production and developing versions. Later, Anders Norrbring From barry at python.org Mon Oct 27 19:56:27 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon Oct 27 19:56:33 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] CVS checkout... In-Reply-To: <200310280016.h9S0GIuU030524@ormen2.basenet.levonline.com> References: <200310280016.h9S0GIuU030524@ormen2.basenet.levonline.com> Message-ID: <1067302587.1066.43.camel@anthem> On Mon, 2003-10-27 at 19:23, Anders Norrbring wrote: > There are several branches in the CVS tree, but I can't see the use of > downloading them all, just the latest versions, both production and > developing versions. At this point, I would stick with the Release_2_1-maint branch, which represents the stable Mailman 2.1 line. -Barry From anders at norrbring.biz Tue Oct 28 01:39:41 2003 From: anders at norrbring.biz (Anders Norrbring) Date: Tue Oct 28 01:39:59 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] CVS checkout... In-Reply-To: <1067302587.1066.43.camel@anthem> Message-ID: <200310280632.h9S6WruU000335@ormen2.basenet.levonline.com> Thanks Barry, That much I already figured out.. But my question is really a request for help with the use of CVS.. I can check out Mailman via CVS, but I get everything from the sourceforge server if I simply checkout "mailman"... Is there a way to make cvs check out ONLY the Release_2_1-maint branch? Anders Norrbring Norrbring Consulting Halmv?gen 42 SE-691 48 Karlskoga SWEDEN e-mail: anders@norrbring.biz Phone: +46 586-322 43 Mobile: +46 70-203 19 15 -----Original Message----- From: Barry Warsaw [mailto:barry@python.org] Sent: den 28 oktober 2003 01:56 To: Anders Norrbring Cc: mailman-i18n@python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-i18n] CVS checkout... On Mon, 2003-10-27 at 19:23, Anders Norrbring wrote: > There are several branches in the CVS tree, but I can't see the use of > downloading them all, just the latest versions, both production and > developing versions. At this point, I would stick with the Release_2_1-maint branch, which represents the stable Mailman 2.1 line. -Barry From tomfa at debian.org Tue Oct 28 04:51:09 2003 From: tomfa at debian.org (Tomas Fasth) Date: Tue Oct 28 04:51:48 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] CVS checkout... In-Reply-To: <200310280632.h9S6WruU000335@ormen2.basenet.levonline.com> References: <200310280632.h9S6WruU000335@ormen2.basenet.levonline.com> Message-ID: <3F9E3C0D.2090001@debian.org> Hej Anders Anders Norrbring wrote / skrev: > I can check out Mailman via CVS, but I get everything from the sourceforge > server if I simply checkout "mailman"... Is there a way to make cvs check > out ONLY the Release_2_1-maint branch? Have you tried the "Revision" tab in the checkout dialog? Use the "Choose branch or tag" option to checkout the Release_2_1-maint branch. -- Tomas Fasth GnuPG 0x9FE8D504 From anders at norrbring.biz Tue Oct 28 05:11:14 2003 From: anders at norrbring.biz (Anders Norrbring) Date: Tue Oct 28 05:11:34 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] CVS checkout... In-Reply-To: <3F9E3C0D.2090001@debian.org> Message-ID: <200310281004.h9SA4PuU026504@ormen2.basenet.levonline.com> Yes, I tried that.. But TortoiseCVS complains then that I need write access to the repositary.. I'll think of something I guess, but any guidance is gratefully accepted! :) Later Anders Norrbring -----Original Message----- From: Tomas Fasth [mailto:tomfa@debian.org] Sent: den 28 oktober 2003 10:51 To: Anders Norrbring Cc: 'Barry Warsaw'; mailman-i18n@python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-i18n] CVS checkout... Hej Anders Anders Norrbring wrote / skrev: > I can check out Mailman via CVS, but I get everything from the sourceforge > server if I simply checkout "mailman"... Is there a way to make cvs check > out ONLY the Release_2_1-maint branch? Have you tried the "Revision" tab in the checkout dialog? Use the "Choose branch or tag" option to checkout the Release_2_1-maint branch. -- Tomas Fasth GnuPG 0x9FE8D504 From tomfa at debian.org Tue Oct 28 14:30:28 2003 From: tomfa at debian.org (Tomas Fasth) Date: Tue Oct 28 14:32:44 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] CVS checkout... In-Reply-To: <200310281004.h9SA4PuU026504@ormen2.basenet.levonline.com> References: <200310281004.h9SA4PuU026504@ormen2.basenet.levonline.com> Message-ID: <3F9EC3D4.6020308@debian.org> Out of curiosity, I tested TortoiseCVS on my winXP machine at home. I couldn't get anonymous checkout from cvs.sourceforge.net to work. I did manage to perform a successful checkout by using my sf account and the TortoiseCVS built-in ssh support. My advice to you Anders is to apply for a sf developer account and to use the :ext: protocol. See "TortoiseCVS User's Guide" and look for the chapter "Using TortoiseCVS with SourceForge" for more information. Anders Norrbring wrote / skrev: > Yes, I tried that.. But TortoiseCVS complains then that I need write access > to the repositary.. I'll think of something I guess, but any guidance is > gratefully accepted! :) > > Later > > Anders Norrbring -- Tomas Fasth GnuPG 0x9FE8D504 From anders at norrbring.biz Tue Oct 28 15:12:25 2003 From: anders at norrbring.biz (Anders Norrbring) Date: Tue Oct 28 15:12:44 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] CVS checkout... In-Reply-To: <3F9EC3D4.6020308@debian.org> Message-ID: <200310282005.h9SK5R35010586@ormen1.basenet.levonline.com> Fixed.. I looked in the wrong place in Tortoise... Now it's working perfectly well! :) Anders Norrbring Norrbring Consulting -----Original Message----- From: Tomas Fasth [mailto:tomfa@debian.org] Sent: den 28 oktober 2003 20:30 To: Anders Norrbring Cc: 'Tomas Fasth'; 'Barry Warsaw'; mailman-i18n@python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-i18n] CVS checkout... Out of curiosity, I tested TortoiseCVS on my winXP machine at home. I couldn't get anonymous checkout from cvs.sourceforge.net to work. I did manage to perform a successful checkout by using my sf account and the TortoiseCVS built-in ssh support. My advice to you Anders is to apply for a sf developer account and to use the :ext: protocol. See "TortoiseCVS User's Guide" and look for the chapter "Using TortoiseCVS with SourceForge" for more information. Anders Norrbring wrote / skrev: > Yes, I tried that.. But TortoiseCVS complains then that I need write access > to the repositary.. I'll think of something I guess, but any guidance is > gratefully accepted! :) > > Later > > Anders Norrbring -- Tomas Fasth GnuPG 0x9FE8D504 From mailman-i18n at manty.net Wed Oct 29 16:02:04 2003 From: mailman-i18n at manty.net (Santiago Garcia Mantinan) Date: Wed Oct 29 16:03:52 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] charset anoyance Message-ID: <20031029210204.GA7639@man.beta.es> Hi! I'm sending this here because it is language related, sorry if this is not the list to post it. First I see that for the Spanish language we are having iso-8859-1 instead of iso-8859-15 which would allow us to use the euro symbol and all that. Second, I see an anoyance when running lists in a country that different language are used, or even with certain mailers alone, the problem is this: Suppose I have a list which default language is using charset iso-8859-1, then somebody comes and posts in iso-8859-15 and you get it all in three mime parts, one for the header, in iso-8859-1, one for the body in iso-8859-15 and then the footer in iso-8859-1 again. This seems quite anoying, at least when yo look at it. I was wondering if there is, or if it would make sense to add, something so that this doesn't happen. Also I see something that is for sure doable, and it is that when the same person writes with some mailers like mutt and doesn't use any 8 bits character, then the mailer would encode the text as us-ascii, which if I'm not wrong, should mix ok with iso-8859-1, I mean that the hole message could come as one using iso-8859-1, and that is not done right now. Well, just a couple of ideas, that's all. Regards... -- Manty/BestiaTester -> http://manty.net From martin at v.loewis.de Wed Oct 29 17:27:27 2003 From: martin at v.loewis.de (Martin v. =?iso-8859-15?q?L=F6wis?=) Date: Wed Oct 29 17:28:59 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] charset anoyance In-Reply-To: <20031029210204.GA7639@man.beta.es> References: <20031029210204.GA7639@man.beta.es> Message-ID: Santiago Garcia Mantinan writes: > First I see that for the Spanish language we are having iso-8859-1 instead > of iso-8859-15 which would allow us to use the euro symbol and all that. That should not cause any annoyance, as none of the mailman messages ever uses a currency symbol. Users can happily sent email messages in any encoding they like. > Suppose I have a list which default language is using charset iso-8859-1, > then somebody comes and posts in iso-8859-15 and you get it all in three > mime parts, one for the header, in iso-8859-1, one for the body in > iso-8859-15 and then the footer in iso-8859-1 again. This seems quite > anoying, at least when yo look at it. Why is this annoying? All three parts are plain text, so a capable mail reader should be able to render it all in a single message. > I was wondering if there is, or if it would make sense to add, > something so that this doesn't happen. Whether it would make sense, I don't know, but it would be possible. Of course, some people actually prefer to have the messages in three parts, since it allows users to retrieve the original body of the message. If you want to add it, please look at Mailman/Handlers/Decorate.py. The test if not msg.is_multipart() and msgtype == 'text/plain' and \ msg.get('content-transfer-encoding', '').lower() <> 'base64' and \ (lcset == 'us-ascii' or mcset == lcset): is the one that allows direct concatenation of the header. You could extend this to recode the header into the message charset. > Also I see something that is for sure doable, and it is that when the same > person writes with some mailers like mutt and doesn't use any 8 bits > character, then the mailer would encode the text as us-ascii, which if I'm > not wrong, should mix ok with iso-8859-1, I mean that the hole message could > come as one using iso-8859-1, and that is not done right now. If the mailer already choses us-ascii as the body encoding, then mailman will do exactly that. However, it seems you assume a case where the body is in iso-8859-15, yet uses only ASCII characters. I don't think mailman should recode the body even in that case. Instead, recoding the headers to the message's encoding should work fine, again. Regards, Martin From che at debian.org Wed Oct 29 17:55:10 2003 From: che at debian.org (Ben Gertzfield) Date: Wed Oct 29 17:58:55 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] charset anoyance In-Reply-To: <20031029210204.GA7639@man.beta.es> References: <20031029210204.GA7639@man.beta.es> Message-ID: <3FA0454E.9060300@debian.org> Santiago Garcia Mantinan wrote: >Suppose I have a list which default language is using charset iso-8859-1, >then somebody comes and posts in iso-8859-15 and you get it all in three >mime parts, one for the header, in iso-8859-1, one for the body in >iso-8859-15 and then the footer in iso-8859-1 again. > This is a big problem, one I didn't address with my initial charset support implementation for Mailman. I'll add this functionality as soon as I can, hopefully tonight or tomorrow. Sorry for all the inconvenience. Basically, we need to have Mailman's Charset.py treat iso-8859-1 exactly the same as iso-8859-15 as a special case. Ben From che at debian.org Thu Oct 30 11:52:21 2003 From: che at debian.org (Ben Gertzfield) Date: Thu Oct 30 11:52:27 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] charset anoyance In-Reply-To: References: <20031029210204.GA7639@man.beta.es> Message-ID: <6E372369-0AF9-11D8-BCD6-000393C96166@debian.org> On Oct 29, 2003, at 2:27 PM, Martin v. L?wis wrote: > Why is this annoying? All three parts are plain text, so a capable > mail reader should be able to render it all in a single message. Should be, yes -- but it turns out only Mozilla and a few other mail readers actually do the right thing and render the plain text attachments inline. Almost all other mail readers render the separate header and footer as "attachments", which makes them useless. Ben