From dig.list at nm.ru Thu Jul 10 05:56:09 2003 From: dig.list at nm.ru (DIG) Date: Thu Jul 10 06:02:47 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] was vs. they Message-ID: <20030710045609.B23800@lifebook> Hi, There is a fragment of text (in $CVS/mailman/messages/ru/LC_MESSAGES): ,--- [ mailman.po ] --- | #: Mailman/Deliverer.py:158 | msgid "" | "%(address)s was invited to a different mailing\n" | "list, but in a deliberate malicious attempt they tried to confirm the\n" | "invitation to your list. We just thought you'd like to know. No further\n" | "action by you is required." `----[ ] --- Is this correct: ``address was invited'' and ``they tried''? ^^^- singular ^^^^- plural And almost the same situation at line 177 (same file). P.S. I can be wrong, though. I am not native English speaker. Regards, -- DIG (Dmitri I GOULIAEV) http://www.telkel.net/dig/ 1024D/63A6C649: 26A0 E4D5 AB3F C2D4 0112 66CD 4343 C0AF 63A6 C649 From che at debian.org Thu Jul 10 11:07:44 2003 From: che at debian.org (Ben Gertzfield) Date: Thu Jul 10 13:06:58 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] was vs. they In-Reply-To: <20030710045609.B23800@lifebook> References: <20030710045609.B23800@lifebook> Message-ID: <3F0D9D60.8080102@debian.org> DIG wrote: >Hi, > >There is a fragment of text (in $CVS/mailman/messages/ru/LC_MESSAGES): > >,--- [ mailman.po ] --- >| #: Mailman/Deliverer.py:158 >| msgid "" >| "%(address)s was invited to a different mailing\n" >| "list, but in a deliberate malicious attempt they tried to confirm the\n" >| "invitation to your list. We just thought you'd like to know. No further\n" >| "action by you is required." >`----[ ] --- > >Is this correct: ``address was invited'' and ``they tried''? > ^^^- singular ^^^^- plural > This is not technically correct English, but it's a very common usage. Since there is no gender-neutral way in English to refer to a person whose gender is unknown (in this case, the owner of the email address) the word "they" in a singular sense is often used for this purpose. "He or she" (which is more correct) sounds awkward in many cases, and the singular pronoun "it" is not used to refer to people. To be more correct, "he or she" should probably be used in the original English above, but the original sentence is completely understandable to this native English speaker. You can translate it as a gender-neutral singular pronoun like "it" if your language uses that for people, or use the equivalent of "he or she". Ben From barry at python.org Thu Jul 10 19:51:57 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu Jul 10 14:51:58 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] was vs. they In-Reply-To: <3F0D9D60.8080102@debian.org> References: <20030710045609.B23800@lifebook> <3F0D9D60.8080102@debian.org> Message-ID: <1057863085.15764.62.camel@yyz> On Thu, 2003-07-10 at 13:07, Ben Gertzfield wrote: > "He or she" (which is more correct) sounds awkward in many cases, and > the singular pronoun "it" is not used to refer to people. > > To be more correct, "he or she" should probably be used in the original > English above, but the original sentence is completely understandable to > this native English speaker. > > You can translate it as a gender-neutral singular pronoun like "it" if > your language uses that for people, or use the equivalent of "he or she". Good advice Ben, thanks. -Barry From dig.list at nm.ru Thu Jul 10 19:43:20 2003 From: dig.list at nm.ru (DIG) Date: Thu Jul 10 19:43:43 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] was vs. they -- thanks In-Reply-To: <3F0D9D60.8080102@debian.org>; from che@debian.org on Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 10:07:44AM -0700 References: <20030710045609.B23800@lifebook> <3F0D9D60.8080102@debian.org> Message-ID: <20030710184320.G23800@lifebook> Hi, Ben Gertzfield ! On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 10:07:44AM -0700, Ben Gertzfield wrote: > This is not technically correct English, but it's a very common usage. I was supposing something like this. That's how we live and learn. And that is why I added P.S. about not being native English speaker. > Since there is no gender-neutral way in English to refer to a person > whose gender is unknown (in this case, the owner of the email address) > the word "they" in a singular sense is often used for this purpose. > > "He or she" (which is more correct) sounds awkward in many cases, and > the singular pronoun "it" is not used to refer to people. The same is in Russian. Also, ``it'' may be used as euphemism. > To be more correct, "he or she" should probably be used in the original > English above, but the original sentence is completely understandable to > this native English speaker. > > You can translate it as a gender-neutral singular pronoun like "it" if > your language uses that for people, or use the equivalent of "he or she". In Russian it is almost the same situation: plural pronoun of 3-rd person is gender-neutral (singular ones are not). And in Russian we sometimes can use the constructions like this one: ``??(?) ??????????(?)''. It is almost the same as in English: ``(s)he tried''. I will keep my eye on French translation: they discriminate (in good sense) plural pronoun of 3-rd person. ``Elles'' can only be used when we speak about group of women only. ``Ils'', on the other hand, is for men only as well as for mixed group. And this part of messages file is not yet translated. Thank again for your extended explanation. Best regards, -- DIG (Dmitri I GOULIAEV) http://www.telkel.net/dig/ 1024D/63A6C649: 26A0 E4D5 AB3F C2D4 0112 66CD 4343 C0AF 63A6 C649 From mss at mawhrin.net Fri Jul 11 18:20:28 2003 From: mss at mawhrin.net (Mikhail Sobolev) Date: Fri Jul 11 12:20:34 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] was vs. they In-Reply-To: <3F0D9D60.8080102@debian.org> References: <20030710045609.B23800@lifebook> <3F0D9D60.8080102@debian.org> Message-ID: <20030711162028.GA23364@mawhrin.net> On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 10:07:44AM -0700, Ben Gertzfield wrote: > This is not technically correct English, but it's a very common usage. > > Since there is no gender-neutral way in English to refer to a person > whose gender is unknown (in this case, the owner of the email address) > the word "they" in a singular sense is often used for this purpose. I think that the classical grammar suggests that "she" is the right replacement. While in the modern English, this "gender-neutral" "she" tends to be replaced with "they". Disclaimer. I am not a native speaker, that's what I was said by a English teacher. :)) -- Misha -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-i18n/attachments/20030711/c7e64f62/attachment.bin From nkatic at public.srce.hr Thu Jul 17 13:12:36 2003 From: nkatic at public.srce.hr (Nino Katic) Date: Thu Jul 17 06:12:44 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Croatian translation Message-ID: Hi, I'm interested if there have been some efforts to translate Mailman to Croatian language recently? Best regards, Nino From barry at python.org Mon Jul 21 03:21:43 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Sun Jul 20 22:21:44 2003 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] was vs. they In-Reply-To: <20030711162028.GA23364@mawhrin.net> References: <20030710045609.B23800@lifebook> <3F0D9D60.8080102@debian.org> <20030711162028.GA23364@mawhrin.net> Message-ID: <1058754068.939.106.camel@anthem> On Fri, 2003-07-11 at 12:20, Mikhail Sobolev wrote: > On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 10:07:44AM -0700, Ben Gertzfield wrote: > > This is not technically correct English, but it's a very common usage. > > > > Since there is no gender-neutral way in English to refer to a person > > whose gender is unknown (in this case, the owner of the email address) > > the word "they" in a singular sense is often used for this purpose. > I think that the classical grammar suggests that "she" is the right > replacement. While in the modern English, this "gender-neutral" "she" > tends to be replaced with "they". > > Disclaimer. I am not a native speaker, that's what I was said by a > English teacher. :)) I find it very awkward when "she" is used in a gender-neutral way in English. I know this was a fad at one time, but to me it's very jarring. "They" is probably the best we've got for English. -Barry