From p.peloni@completel.fr Fri Jan 4 12:04:32 2002 From: p.peloni@completel.fr (Pascal PELONI) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 13:04:32 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] French translation Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020104130341.03026278@wmail.asi.fr> Hi, I'm looking for a french translation of MailMan v2.0.7. Do you have it ? Thanks, Pascal PELONI - Responsable technique de site Completel H=E9bergement - www.completel.fr M : +33 6 13 79 41 43 - T : +33 4 26 68 23 53 - F : +33 4 26 68 23 99 From db@bibsys.no Fri Jan 4 12:41:04 2002 From: db@bibsys.no (Daniel Buchmann) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 13:41:04 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] French translation References: 5.1.0.14.2.20020104130341.03026278@wmail.asi.fr Message-ID: <3C35A2E0.14AB5696@bibsys.no> Pascal PELONI wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm looking for a french translation of MailMan v2.0.7. > > Do you have it ? Hi, there is no french translation of Mailman 2.0.7 (as far as I know). French is not supported until Mailman 2.1 comes out (hopefully in February this year). Maybe you could ask the french translator. He wrote this in his README: " Francisation de Mailman. Je vous invite à relire les catalogues et les templates qui sont écrites pour la plupart par un Francophone dont la langue maternelle n'est pas le français, qui plus est n'est ni doué en grammaire ni érudit. Si vous ne relisez rien et que vous y trouvez des fautes, ne grognez surtout pas, suggérez gentillement vos corrections, et elles seront apportées illico. Questions, suggestions: wilane@yahoo.com Ousmane Wilane " I don't read french, so I don't know if this text will help you, but maybe Ousmane can help you. :) -Daniel, norwegian translator. From fil@rezo.net Fri Jan 4 23:35:35 2002 From: fil@rezo.net (Fil) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 00:35:35 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] French translation In-Reply-To: <3C35A2E0.14AB5696@bibsys.no>; from db@bibsys.no on Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 01:41:04PM +0100 References: <3C35A2E0.14AB5696@bibsys.no> Message-ID: <20020105003535.F10627@orwell.bok.net> @ Daniel Buchmann : > Hi, there is no french translation of Mailman 2.0.7 (as far as I know). > French is not supported until Mailman 2.1 comes out (hopefully in February this > year). > Maybe you could ask the french translator. Indeed there is a lot of work to be done on the French translation. There is a Mailman-FR list at http://listes.rezo.net/mailman/listinfo/mailman-fr -- Ousmane is leading the effort there. Unfortunately he is almost alone, and French is not his mother tongue. I would add that the translation process is a bit awkward. Aren't there tools such as online shared databases that can be used to coordinate translations? I can commit some translations and corrections once in a while, but the effort to do when you have to proofread and correct everything is way too high for the time I can spend on it. -- Fil From mcicogni@libero.it Sat Jan 5 14:42:58 2002 From: mcicogni@libero.it (=?utf-8?Q?Mauro_Cicognini?=) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 15:42:58 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Italian_translation_(is_it_complete=3F)?= Message-ID: SGksDQpJIChob3BlKSBzdWNjZXNzZnVsbHkgaW5zdGFsbGVkIG1haWxtYW4gMi4xYTQgb24g YSBMaW51eCBzZXJ2ZXIsIHVzaW5nIA0KcW1haWwgYW5kIGFwYWNoZSwgYW5kIGl0IGxvb2tz IGFzIGlmIGV2ZXJ5dGhpbmcgaXMgd29ya2luZy4gQ3JlYXRlZCBhIA0KY291cGxlIGxpc3Rz LCBlbnJvbGxlZCBzb21lIHVzZXJzLCBldGMuIGFuZCBJJ2Qgc2F5IDk5JSBidWctZnJlZSAo bm90IA0KdGhlIGVhc2llc3Qgc2V0dXAgSSBldmVyIGRpZCwgYnV0Li4uIDotKQ0KDQpJIHNl dCBJdGFsaWFuIGFzIHRoZSBkZWZhdWx0IGxhbmd1YWdlIGZvciB0aGUgbGlzdHMsIGFuZCB0 aGlzIGlzIA0KY29ycmVjdCwgdG9vLiBIb3dldmVyLCBhbHRob3VnaCB0aGUgaXRhbGlhbiB0 cmFuc2xhdGlvbiBzZWVtcyBjb21wbGV0ZSwgDQp0aGVyZSBhcmUgc3RpbGwgc29tZSBwYXJ0 cyBvZiB0aGUgd2ViIHBhZ2VzIHRoYXQgYXBwZWFyIGluIEVuZ2xpc2gsIA0KbGlrZSBhIHBh cmFncmFwaCBvciB0d28gaGVyZSBhbmQgdGhlcmUsIGFuZCB0aGUgcmVzdCBvZiB0aGUgcGFn ZSBpcyANCmluIEl0YWxpYW4uDQoNCkhvd2V2ZXIsIGl0IGxvb2tzIGxpa2UgU2ltb25lIFBp dW5ubyAod2hvIGRpZCBhbiBleGNlbGxlbnQgam9iIG9mIA0KdHJhbnNsYXRpb24pIGFjdHVh bGx5IGNvbXBsZXRlZCBoaXMgd29yaywgc2luY2UgdGhlIC5wbyBmaWxlIGlzIA0KY29tcGxl dGVseSB0cmFuc2xhdGVkLg0KDQpOb3csIHdoYXQgYW0gSSBtaXNzaW5nPyBEb2VzIHRoZSB0 ZW1wbGF0ZSBuZWVkIHRvIGJlIGNvbXBsZXRlZCwgb3IgDQpyZXZpc2VkPyBPciBkaWQgU2lt b25lIGluIGZhY3Qgc2tpcCBzb21ldGhpbmcgYW5kIEkgZGlkbid0IG5vdGljZSBpdD8NCg0K VGhhbmtzIGZvciBhbnkgcmVzcG9uc2UNCk1hdXJvIENpY29nbmluaQ0KDQpQLlMuIEJUVywg Y2FuIGFueW9uZSB0ZWxsIG1lIHdoaWNoIGlzIHRoZSAicHJlZmVycmVkIiB3YXkgdG8gc2ln bmFsIA0KcG9zc2libGUgYnVncz8gSSBrbm93IEkgc2hvdWxkIGFzayB0aGlzIG9uIGFub3Ro ZXIgTUwsIGJ1dCBJIGd1ZXNzIA0Kc29tZW9uZSBjb3VsZCBkaXJlY3QgbWUgdG8gdGhlIGJl c3Qgd2F5LiBFeGN1c2UgbWUgYW5kIHRoYW54IGFnYWluLg0K From db@bibsys.no Sat Jan 5 15:22:58 2002 From: db@bibsys.no (Daniel Buchmann) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 16:22:58 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Italian translation (is it complete?) References: GPGZJM$I8UJNi5VBosLkU6nO7x7YeyuBz9rwMXIpA0ZhYF1goN51S@libero.it Message-ID: <3C371A52.23F24C50@bibsys.no> Mauro Cicognini wrote: > I set Italian as the default language for the lists, and this is > correct, too. However, although the italian translation seems complete, > there are still some parts of the web pages that appear in English, > like a paragraph or two here and there, and the rest of the page is > in Italian. This is probably because Simone Piunno has not yet submitted the latest update of his italian translation. A few days ago (actually, New Year's Eve) the .po file was merged with the newly generated .pot file, so many translation entries became fuzzy and some were empty. That's why the pages look partly translated. > However, it looks like Simone Piunno (who did an excellent job of > translation) actually completed his work, since the .po file is > completely translated. > > Now, what am I missing? Does the template need to be completed, or > revised? Or did Simone in fact skip something and I didn't notice it? You will probably have to wait for Simone to update his work, or better yet, maybe join him in his effort? :D -Daniel, norwegian translator. From barry@zope.com Sat Jan 5 16:25:17 2002 From: barry@zope.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 11:25:17 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Italian_translation_(is_it_complete=3F)?= References: Message-ID: <15415.10477.321814.620056@anthem.wooz.org> Please resend this message as plain text, or, can someone else decipher this message? -Barry From barry@zope.com Sun Jan 6 07:06:15 2002 From: barry@zope.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 02:06:15 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] French translation References: <3C35A2E0.14AB5696@bibsys.no> <20020105003535.F10627@orwell.bok.net> Message-ID: <15415.63335.162033.329095@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "F" == Fil writes: F> I would add that the translation process is a bit F> awkward. Aren't there tools such as online shared databases F> that can be used to coordinate translations? I can commit some F> translations and corrections once in a while, but the effort to F> do when you have to proofread and correct everything is way too F> high for the time I can spend on it. I'm all ears for suggestions of ways I can make the translation process easier. I've been hoping we'd have more languages supported by now. Part of this is my fault -- while we're in alpha, I do sometimes change templates and translatable strings. But I'm trying to be judicious about that, and I'll get stricter once we go to beta. As far as translation tools, I'm not sure how much I can help, since I don't do any translations on a regular basis (typical monolingual American here ;). XEmacs tends to be my tool of choice for almost everything, and I know there are some facilities in Emacs/XEmacs for doing translations. Beyond that, I don't know. It's up to you translators to help me understand how to make your jobs easier. Maybe the GNU people have suggestions. Or the folks on i18n-sig@python.org. -Barry From fil@rezo.net Sun Jan 6 11:00:20 2002 From: fil@rezo.net (Fil) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 12:00:20 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-FR] Re: [Mailman-i18n] French translation In-Reply-To: <15415.63335.162033.329095@anthem.wooz.org>; from barry@zope.com on Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 02:06:15AM -0500 References: <3C35A2E0.14AB5696@bibsys.no> <20020105003535.F10627@orwell.bok.net> <15415.63335.162033.329095@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: <20020106120019.B10059@orwell.bok.net> @ Barry A. Warsaw : > > >>>>> "F" == Fil writes: > > F> I would add that the translation process is a bit > F> awkward. Aren't there tools such as online shared databases > F> that can be used to coordinate translations? I can commit some > F> translations and corrections once in a while, but the effort to > F> do when you have to proofread and correct everything is way too > F> high for the time I can spend on it. > > I'm all ears for suggestions of ways I can make the translation > process easier. I've been hoping we'd have more languages supported > by now. Part of this is my fault -- while we're in alpha, I do > sometimes change templates and translatable strings. But I'm trying > to be judicious about that, and I'll get stricter once we go to beta. No! I think you should be as free as possible to modify anything. The key is not to be more stringent on your side, but to be more reactive on the translator's side. And it's something difficult because the flow of information on what's new/what sould be translated is not easy. So here's a suggestion/dream of what would be a reactive translation tool. * I'd like to see an online database, in which each item to be translated would be linked to all its translation in all "idioms" * of course each "idiom" is the metting point of a translators team (free name) and a "language" (iso representation) to allow multiple translations and splits. * Each idiom would then have a list of authorized commiters * Each new/modified item in the original idiom would be flagged as "not translated" in all idioms. Each team would then receive by email a list of what's new to do, for example when you insert new strings 7 and 8, idiom3 team would receive: 1) "Known spammer" http://translate.to/modify?idiom=3&string=7 2) "This is Great Software" http://translate.to/modify?idiom=3&string=8 and so on. * On the idiom3 home page, you'd have: - a list of "what's not been translated yet" - a tool to browse all items (and search by content in any idiom) - an open comment a translation/give a new translation/ that would result in suggestions being submitted to the commiters. - an export tool (that would give fresh .mo and .po files) * On the import side it must be automated from the CVS of the project? Then we'll get translation info circulating fast, corrections easy to make and overall i18n speed increase, I guess. That's not a project for Mailman, I guess, but something more general. I wonder why/if it does not exist yet? -- Fil From loewis@informatik.hu-berlin.de Sun Jan 6 14:20:53 2002 From: loewis@informatik.hu-berlin.de (Martin von Loewis) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 15:20:53 +0100 (MET) Subject: [Mailman-FR] Re: [Mailman-i18n] French translation In-Reply-To: <20020106120019.B10059@orwell.bok.net> (message from Fil on Sun, 6 Jan 2002 12:00:20 +0100) References: <3C35A2E0.14AB5696@bibsys.no> <20020105003535.F10627@orwell.bok.net> <15415.63335.162033.329095@anthem.wooz.org> <20020106120019.B10059@orwell.bok.net> Message-ID: <200201061420.g06EKrJ09448@paros.informatik.hu-berlin.de> > No! I think you should be as free as possible to modify anything. The key > is not to be more stringent on your side, but to be more reactive on the > translator's side. And it's something difficult because the flow of > information on what's new/what sould be translated is not easy. Could you please describe shortly how you are currently doing the translation. There are already excellent tools available, perhaps you just need to use them. For example, for PO files, I could not live without the emacs PO mode, and the ediff mode. Others prefer gtranslator or kbabyl for that; this is a matter of taste. > * I'd like to see an online database, in which each item to be translated > would be linked to all its translation in all "idioms" What's an "idiom", in this context? > * of course each "idiom" is the metting point of a translators team (free > name) and a "language" (iso representation) to allow multiple translations > and splits. I cannot follow. What is a split? > * Each new/modified item in the original idiom would be flagged as "not > translated" in all idioms. Each team would then receive by email a list of > what's new to do, for example when you insert new strings 7 and 8, idiom3 > team would receive: Shipping po files automatically is certainly a thing that can be done easily. If you want, the Translation Project (TP), at http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/ can offer maintainance of the PO files. This would result in the following procedure: 1. Barry submits the PO template to the TP. 2. The TP robot merges it with all previous translations, and announces it to all teams; the assigned translator gets a copy of the merge result. 3. the assigned translator updates the PO file, and submits it to the TP robot. This archives the file, and forwards it to Barry for inclusion. > - a tool to browse all items (and search by content in any idiom) > - an open comment a translation/give a new translation/ that > would result in suggestions being submitted to the commiters. Are you sure that this kind of collaborative work would actually simplify things? I'd expect that there will be no more than one active translator for each language, so offering collaborative work does not help. > Then we'll get translation info circulating fast, corrections easy to make > and overall i18n speed increase, I guess. That's not a project for Mailman, > I guess, but something more general. I wonder why/if it does not exist yet? On the automatic distribution of catalogs, it exists; this is what the Translation Project does, for PO files, or the Debian translation project for HTML files. On the collaborative work part, this does not exist, IMHO, since nobody wants to use it. I'd suggest that you get in contact with your language team within the TP; maybe they can offer their experience. Regards, Martin From loewis@informatik.hu-berlin.de Sun Jan 6 14:26:34 2002 From: loewis@informatik.hu-berlin.de (Martin von Loewis) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 15:26:34 +0100 (MET) Subject: [Mailman-i18n] French translation In-Reply-To: <15415.63335.162033.329095@anthem.wooz.org> (barry@zope.com) References: <3C35A2E0.14AB5696@bibsys.no> <20020105003535.F10627@orwell.bok.net> <15415.63335.162033.329095@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: <200201061426.g06EQYb09466@paros.informatik.hu-berlin.de> > Beyond that, I don't know. It's up to you translators to help me > understand how to make your jobs easier. Maybe the GNU people have > suggestions. Or the folks on i18n-sig@python.org. For discussion on translating software in general, I'd like to suggest that people get in contact with their language team within the translation project, at http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/ Participants often have much experience with using tools for translation; they also have experience of how to translate terminology. For example, it is common that somebody asks for "the best" translation of some term on de@li.org, and several people suggest alternatives. HTH, Martin From mcicogni@libero.it Sun Jan 6 16:01:38 2002 From: mcicogni@libero.it (Mauro Cicognini) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 17:01:38 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Italian translation (is it complete?) References: <3C372D2A.4F59153B@bibsys.no> <15415.11779.357953.860041@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: <3C3874E2.7B8F772D@libero.it> "Barry A. Warsaw" wrote: > >>>>> "DB" == Daniel Buchmann writes: > > DB> Well.. I've already answered it. It was displayed correctly > DB> in my mail client (Netscape Mail), but I can see the posting > DB> in the archive is a mess... > > It was a mess in my mail reader too. :( VM 7.00/XEmacs 21.4.6 Sorry guys, I was using one of those web mailers and it looks like this particular mailer sends the actual message text base64-encoded, for reasons that currently escape me. I'm now writing with Netscape and telling it to restrict to plain text, so I hope it will display properly everywhere. I'm putting the i18n list in cc: again to see what happens. I'm wondering, would there be any reason to hack around this misfeature within Mailman? > DB> There was another question it that I didn't answer. Mauro was > DB> wondering what the "preferred" way of reporting bugs was. > > DB> SF bug tracker? Mail to mailman-developers? Mail to you, > DB> Barry? > > If it's a translation bug then mail to the language translators > directly, or to mailman-i18n@python.org is the best thing to do. > > If it's a bug in 2.1alpha, then email mailman-developers@python.org; > I'll definitely see it there, and it's helpful to let other developers > see it as well. > > If it's a bug in 2.0.x, then the SF bug tracker. While I've been a bit > lax in clear that out, it'll be a major push of mine once 2.1 hits beta. > > Cheers, > -Barry Thanx for the clarifications Barry, in fact I think I might have hit a bug in 2.1a4: but how do I know it hasn't been reported by someone else? I know I might browse the mailman-developers archive, but wouldn't it be better and easier if the SF bugtracker were used for this, too? Coming to translations and helping out: I'd gladly do it, and if Simone Piunno is reading this he can contact me to lend him a hand. The problem is, my workstations tend to be Windows boxes, so emacs isn't really an option... a web based thing would be best, actually, so that registered translators could go check the status and fill in the blanks... something simpler than the idea described by Fil in the parallel thread on French translations would suffice, though. I'm just imagining a web page with the original english messages and text boxes aside them: some of them would be blank, some (most) would be filled... translators (obviously authenticated in some way) could add and/or modify, the other people could just see what's there and possibly download a snapshot. But I guess it would be a lot of work to put up such a system just for this :-( Anyway, this was my 2c. Thanks again to everybody. Mauro Cicognini From barry@zope.com Sun Jan 6 16:41:44 2002 From: barry@zope.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 11:41:44 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-FR] Re: [Mailman-i18n] French translation References: <3C35A2E0.14AB5696@bibsys.no> <20020105003535.F10627@orwell.bok.net> <15415.63335.162033.329095@anthem.wooz.org> <20020106120019.B10059@orwell.bok.net> Message-ID: <15416.32328.862381.576569@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "F" == Fil writes: F> Then we'll get translation info circulating fast, corrections F> easy to make and overall i18n speed increase, I guess. That's F> not a project for Mailman, I guess, but something more F> general. I wonder why/if it does not exist yet? It's a wonderful idea, and I agree it has utility beyond Mailman. I suspect it doesn't yet exist because sadly, the vast majority of free software isn't yet internationalized. I do believe that's changing so maybe there will be more of a push for better translation tools all up and down the tool chain. Hopefully someone with spare time will invent a tool like Fil describes! -Barry From barry@zope.com Sun Jan 6 21:09:20 2002 From: barry@zope.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:09:20 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Italian translation (is it complete?) References: <3C372D2A.4F59153B@bibsys.no> <15415.11779.357953.860041@anthem.wooz.org> <3C3874E2.7B8F772D@libero.it> Message-ID: <15416.48384.202525.640509@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "MC" == Mauro Cicognini writes: MC> Sorry guys, I was using one of those web mailers and it looks MC> like this particular mailer sends the actual message text MC> base64-encoded, for reasons that currently escape me. I'm now MC> writing with Netscape and telling it to restrict to plain MC> text, so I hope it will display properly everywhere. I'm MC> putting the i18n list in cc: again to see what happens. MC> I'm wondering, would there be any reason to hack around this MC> misfeature within Mailman? In general, I don't want to add lots of hacks for buggy mailers or readers. That path leads to insanity. ;) MC> Thanx for the clarifications Barry, in fact I think I might MC> have hit a bug in 2.1a4: but how do I know it hasn't been MC> reported by someone else? I know I might browse the MC> mailman-developers archive, but wouldn't it be better and MC> easier if the SF bugtracker were used for this, too? Don't worry if it's already been reported. The alphas are changing every day (almost) so I don't expect anybody to totally keep up with it. A little duplication at this point can't hurt. Once we're in beta though, the pace of changes should slow down so at that point SF bug tracker is probably more appropriate. MC> Coming to translations and helping out: I'd gladly do it, and MC> if Simone Piunno is reading this he can contact me to lend him MC> a hand. The problem is, my workstations tend to be Windows MC> boxes, so emacs isn't really an option... Don't be so sure! Both Emacs and XEmacs runs on Windows, AFAIK. MC> a web based thing would be best, actually, so that registered MC> translators could go check the status and fill in the MC> blanks... something simpler than the idea described by Fil in MC> the parallel thread on French translations would suffice, MC> though. What do people think about the Translation Project that Martin pointed to in a different thread? I'd be happy to go through the hoops to register Mailman and run the translation project through them, but I'd like to have buy-in from all the current translators. I don't want Translation Project folks stepping on the toes of you guys. -Barry From robert.ribnitz@unifr.ch Wed Jan 9 16:52:17 2002 From: robert.ribnitz@unifr.ch (RIBNITZ Robert) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 17:52:17 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Support for Latin1 charset? Message-ID: Hello, I do have mailman running with some lists, and I wondered how ot get = support for latin1 charsets (mainly french & german special chars, euro would = be nice too). Instead of =E4 (ä) I get =3DE4, which to me looks like qouted = printable. This is only for the archives, the messages get delivered fine, and = special chars show up fine. any inputs welcome Robert From wanted@mwd.pl Wed Jan 9 18:34:54 2002 From: wanted@mwd.pl (Marcin Sochacki) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 19:34:54 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Support for Latin1 charset? In-Reply-To: ; from robert.ribnitz@unifr.ch on Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 05:52:17PM +0100 References: Message-ID: <20020109193454.B32130@debian.mwd.pl> On Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 05:52:17PM +0100, RIBNITZ Robert wrote: > I do have mailman running with some lists, and I wondered how ot get support > for latin1 charsets (mainly french & german special chars, euro would be > nice too). > > Instead of ä (ä) I get =E4, which to me looks like qouted printable. > > This is only for the archives, the messages get delivered fine, and special > chars show up fine. The problem lies in Pipermail code, which is an external tool adopted to Mailman for archiving messages. The MIME-decoding part in Pipermail is not complete. So, it has almost nothing to do with i18n of Mailman. There are some solutions you could try: - convert the archive from QP to 8bit using some script, - use an external archiver for Mailman (e.g. MHonarc or hypermail), - rewrite Pipermail code ;) Marcin From iwebmaster@iwww.net Sat Jan 12 23:44:51 2002 From: iwebmaster@iwww.net (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?vsbAzLX7tfu1+w==?=) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 08:44:51 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W8irurhdILPXxrzB8MDMILi4tecgsMu79r+jwfggvsbAzLX7tfu1+8DUtM+02S4=?= Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0087_01C0F44A.93A51C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 sMu79r+jwfggvsbAzLX7tfu1+yAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIMDOxc2z3b+htMIg uLnAuiDBpLq4v80gsdcgwaS6uLimIMOjvsbB1rTCILDLu/a/o8H4wMwgwNa9wLTPtNkuDQog IMfPwfa4uCCwy7v2v6PB+LXpwMwgs8q5q7OqILi5wLogwaS6uLimIMGmsPjH2CDB1rTCILDh sPogv8DI97fBIMGkuri4piDDo7TCtaUguLnAuiCz67fCsPogvcOwo8C7DQogICDH47rxx8+0 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Warsaw) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 02:53:49 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] [ =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCSCs6OBsoQg==?= ] ... spam on this list. References: <20020115124416.B17602@ixp.jp> Message-ID: <15427.57357.401616.290096@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "PE" == Peter Evans writes: PE> Time to make all lists CLOSED by default. this spam is still PE> getting through. (and dont suggest I filter it at my end PE> thank you, that's no help.) mailman-users, -developers, and -announce is already closed. I suppose I should also close mailman-i18n. -Barry From mailinglisten@fremd-online.de Wed Jan 23 16:13:03 2002 From: mailinglisten@fremd-online.de (Uli Fremd) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:13:03 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Frage/Question Message-ID: Hello, sorry my English is not good. When does come a german language version of mailman?? Uli From loewis@informatik.hu-berlin.de Thu Jan 24 14:28:50 2002 From: loewis@informatik.hu-berlin.de (Martin von Loewis) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:28:50 +0100 (MET) Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Frage/Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200201241428.g0OESoC00695@paros.informatik.hu-berlin.de> > sorry my English is not good. When does come a german language version of > mailman?? The 2.1 snapshots support German messages. Regards, Martin From mailinglisten@fremd-online.de Thu Jan 24 14:37:48 2002 From: mailinglisten@fremd-online.de (Uli Fremd) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:37:48 +0100 Subject: AW: [Mailman-i18n] Frage/Question In-Reply-To: <200201241428.g0OESoC00695@paros.informatik.hu-berlin.de> Message-ID: Hello, and when comes the Version 2.1??? Uli Fremd From buchner@detec.unijui.tche.br Thu Jan 24 16:18:36 2002 From: buchner@detec.unijui.tche.br (Jeferson Buchner) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:18:36 -0200 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Portuguese Translation References: <200201241428.g0OESoC00695@paros.informatik.hu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <002301c1a4f2$c6a94ef0$095711c8@gargamel> Portuguese Brasilian Language Translation are avaliable ? From mailinglisten@fremd-online.de Thu Jan 24 16:27:45 2002 From: mailinglisten@fremd-online.de (Uli Fremd) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:27:45 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] deutscher Webhoster inkl. Mailamn In-Reply-To: <200201241428.g0OESoC00695@paros.informatik.hu-berlin.de> Message-ID: Hallo, wer hier in der Liste kennt einen deutschen Webhoster der Mailmanlisten anbietet? Thomas ja ich weiss du :-) Uli From loewis@informatik.hu-berlin.de Thu Jan 24 16:41:11 2002 From: loewis@informatik.hu-berlin.de (Martin von Loewis) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:41:11 +0100 (MET) Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Re: Portuguese Translation In-Reply-To: <002301c1a4f2$c6a94ef0$095711c8@gargamel> (buchner@detec.unijui.tche.br) References: <200201241428.g0OESoC00695@paros.informatik.hu-berlin.de> <002301c1a4f2$c6a94ef0$095711c8@gargamel> Message-ID: <200201241641.g0OGfBH00989@paros.informatik.hu-berlin.de> > Portuguese Brasilian Language Translation are avaliable ? Please have a look at http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/mailman/mailman/messages/ It appears that messages are currently available for: cs, de, es, fr, hu, it, ja, no, and zh(big5) Likewise, the templates are available in http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/mailman/mailman/templates/ which adds en and zh(gb) to this list. So it appears that neither Portuguese nor Brasilian Portuguese are currently available. Regards, Martin From mikhail.sobolev@transas.com Thu Jan 24 16:47:03 2002 From: mikhail.sobolev@transas.com (Mikhail Sobolev) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:47:03 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Russian Translation Message-ID: <20020124164703.A14467@transas.co.uk> Hi I'd like to understand and what stage it's a good idea to put the translation into CVS. Since the moment I announced it I did not have too much time to work on it. However I think it would be better if something was in CVS, as it would allow to see that there is something over there, and that would make people more willingly look at the possibility of helping... Thanks, -- Misha From aleck@unesp.br Thu Jan 24 16:55:56 2002 From: aleck@unesp.br (Aleck Zander) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:55:56 -0200 (BRST) Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Portuguese Translation In-Reply-To: <002301c1a4f2$c6a94ef0$095711c8@gargamel> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Jeferson Buchner wrote: > Portuguese Brasilian Language Translation are avaliable ? We are working in the brazilian portuguese translation. It will be available in 2.1. Contact samarta@ci.uc.pt if you want to help in translation. Seeya -- -- Aleck Zander - aleck@unesp.br Network Analyst - GRC Assessoria de Informatica - Unesp From barry@zope.com Thu Jan 24 22:52:43 2002 From: barry@zope.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:52:43 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Russian Translation References: <20020124164703.A14467@transas.co.uk> Message-ID: <15440.36923.612050.457219@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "MS" == Mikhail Sobolev writes: MS> I'd like to understand and what stage it's a good idea to put MS> the translation into CVS. Any time you're ready. MS> Since the moment I announced it I did not have too much time MS> to work on it. However I think it would be better if MS> something was in CVS, as it would allow to see that there is MS> something over there, and that would make people more MS> willingly look at the possibility of helping... We can do it one of two ways. Either I can give you checkin privileges to the CVS tree, the the promise that you'll only make commits to the templates/ru and messages/ru directories, or you can periodically send me a tarball with those two directories in them, created at the top-level source dirctory. I don't much mind either way. -Barry From amaya@debian.org Mon Jan 21 16:44:09 2002 From: amaya@debian.org (Amaya) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 17:44:09 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Mailman Spanish translation Message-ID: <20020121164409.GI17216@aenima> Dear friends, I wanted to adopt the Spanish translation of Mailman to have it uptodate for the upcoming 2.1 version. I have seen at http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/mailman/ that it hasn't been updated in a while (6 months). Please let me know if anyone is already working in this subject so that we can coordinate. I also wanted to thank the previous translator for his work. Regards, Amaya -- .''`. You will pay for your sins. If you have already paid, : :' : please disregard this message - Fortune `. `' Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux Sid (Kernel 2.4.14) `- www.amayita.com www.malapecora.com www.chicasduras.com From thomas@sec-mail.de Mon Jan 28 20:39:53 2002 From: thomas@sec-mail.de (Thomas Kramer) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:39:53 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] German Language Message-ID: <1547901231.20020128213953@th-k.net> Hello! Anyone has some german templates for Mailman 2.0.8 ? Original HTML Files got Revision 1.18 on the first line. In Mailman 2.1a4 in templates/de HTML Files got Revision 1.1 and users are missing some buttons and input boxes. So anyone has a GERMAN mailman 2.0.8 running? -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Thomas Kramer TMKIS Internet Services http://www.tmkis.com From loewis@informatik.hu-berlin.de Tue Jan 29 10:28:31 2002 From: loewis@informatik.hu-berlin.de (Martin von Loewis) Date: 29 Jan 2002 11:28:31 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] German Language In-Reply-To: <1547901231.20020128213953@th-k.net> References: <1547901231.20020128213953@th-k.net> Message-ID: Thomas Kramer writes: > Anyone has some german templates for Mailman 2.0.8 ? Original HTML > Files got Revision 1.18 on the first line. In Mailman 2.1a4 in > templates/de HTML Files got Revision 1.1 and users are missing some > buttons and input boxes. I think this is a serious flaw in the translation of the HTML templates: It lacks traceability, i.e. it is not possible to find out what version of the English template was the source when translating a template. It would be good if translators would somehow identify what version they started from, so that updating the templates becomes easier. Regards, Martin From dkirchner@bupnet.de Tue Jan 29 13:33:24 2002 From: dkirchner@bupnet.de (Dieter Kirchner) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:33:24 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] German Language References: <1547901231.20020128213953@th-k.net> Message-ID: <007a01c1a8c9$8827ff20$0f01a8c0@bupgoettingen.local> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, > > Anyone has some german templates for Mailman 2.0.8 ? Original > > HTML There are some at http://www.oclink.de/tar/mailman-2.0.6_german_templates.tar.gz These are obsolete, but may help. Some spelling errors may be included. > what version of the English template was the source when > translating a template. It would be good if translators would > somehow identify what version they started from, so that updating > the templates becomes Original work was done by Jens Vagepohl (alpha1), I continued a bit (alpha2) and Holger Jan finished the major part of work on mailman.po . This version has to be checked (thats why it's alpha :-) I dont know who did translation of HTML templates. The templates of 2.0.x are html only, but most work in 2.1.x has been done on the LC messages in mailman.po For a full translation of 2.0.x you have to edit sources, thats why we need 2.1 Ciao, Dieter - --------------------------------------------------------------- Dieter Kirchner Systemadministration BUPNET +49 551 54707 62 D-Goettingen http://www.bupnet.de - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.0.4 iQA/AwUBPFakogyAP5BAyXs6EQKRygCePPD3fuiLFVxiiABFu93UKRcl2vwAnR/b G+kfDR763TZSIb9DWJmrHo/h =P19/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From pekka.haavisto@mtt.fi Wed Jan 30 07:37:32 2002 From: pekka.haavisto@mtt.fi (Pekka Haavisto) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:37:32 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Finnish translation Message-ID: <007801c1a960$fa6d0d90$2d9589c2@mtt.fi> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C1A971.BDEB2F30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi=20 Our team has made first draft of finnish translation. What next, how we send it for delivery and comments. --- Terv. Pekka ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C1A971.BDEB2F30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi
 
Our team has made first draft of = finnish=20 translation.
 
What next, how we send it for delivery = and=20 comments.
 
---
Terv. = Pekka
------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C1A971.BDEB2F30-- From barry@zope.com Wed Jan 30 14:32:33 2002 From: barry@zope.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:32:33 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Finnish translation References: <007801c1a960$fa6d0d90$2d9589c2@mtt.fi> Message-ID: <15448.1025.281285.927038@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "PH" == Pekka Haavisto writes: PH> Our team has made first draft of finnish translation. Great! PH> What next, how we send it for delivery and comments. At the top level source directory, create a tarball containing messages/fi and templates/fi (`fi' is the right country code?). This way I can unpack the tarbal in the top level directory of my tree and everything will be in the right place. Don't worry about building the mailman.mo file; I'll do that. Then I need to know the proper add_language() entry for Defaults.py.in. Once the first checkins are done, if you want, I can give you commit privileges so that you can update the Finnish files as they are updated. Thanks, -Barry From mikhail.sobolev@transas.com Wed Jan 30 14:56:23 2002 From: mikhail.sobolev@transas.com (Mikhail Sobolev) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 14:56:23 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] German Language In-Reply-To: References: <1547901231.20020128213953@th-k.net> Message-ID: <20020130145623.A10823@transas.co.uk> On Tue, Jan 29, 2002 at 11:28:31AM +0100, Martin von Loewis wrote: > I think this is a serious flaw in the translation of the HTML > templates: It lacks traceability, i.e. it is not possible to find out > what version of the English template was the source when translating a > template. It would be good if translators would somehow identify what > version they started from, so that updating the templates becomes > easier. Well, as for html files, it's pretty easy: you can put the reference to the english version, like: and then use this information for maintaining the translation. Text files are worse: you cannot put anything in there. I tried to do something for Russian files, you may want to check Makefile, status and s2s.py files in templates/ru -- Misha From che@debian.org Thu Jan 31 08:28:43 2002 From: che@debian.org (Ben Gertzfield) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:28:43 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] [SCREENSHOT] Mailman sends i18n MIME emails in all languages! Message-ID: <873d0m7wlg.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> I've been working for the past few months on getting proper support in Mailman and the Python email module for i18n mails. Barry and I have gotten a lot of work done, and we now have a working Mailman and email module which sends out emails correctly in *all* our supported languages: Japanese, Chinese (simplified and traditional), Czech, German, Spanish, French, Hungarian, Italian, and Norwegian! Here's a screenshot of the successful work: http://nausicaa.interq.or.jp/mailman/mailman_i18n.png (or http://nausicaa.interq.or.jp/mailman/mailman_i18n.jpg for differently-abled browsers). Thanks to all the great translators who have made this possible! Your work is never appreciated enough. :) This support includes: * Header encoding with quoted-printable for European languages: Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Votre_nouvelle_liste_de_diffusion=3A_test-fr?= * Header encoding with base64, with *correct* splitting of long lines on character boundaries to avoid splitting in between two bytes of a multibyte character: Subject: =?iso-2022-jp?b?GyRCJCIkSiQ/JE4/NyQ3JCQlYSE8JWolcyUwGyhC?= =?iso-2022-jp?b?GyRCJWolOSVIGyhCOiBjZ2ktdGVzdA==?= * Body encoding with quoted-printable for European languages, and base64 for Chinese or unknown languages * Optional conversion from gettext catalog character set to email character set (for EUC-JP to iso-2022-jp for Japanese emails) * General support for future character sets. Even multibyte character sets are supported; as long as a Unicode codec for Python exists that will convert the character set to/from Unicode, it will be supported * All command-line tools and web interfaces in Mailman that generate email have been modified to use the new, simple i18n-aware programming interface. This support does not yet fix: * Multilingual archives. Pipermail seriously needs help. * Admin interface for Japanese: mails are in iso-2022-jp, but the interface is EUC-JP! Need to convert. * Multilingual bounce messages. Working on that soon. There are a few issues with some of the current translations I will bring up in my next message, but thanks to everyone for making this possible! Hopefully, as Barry likes to say, Mailman truly will rule the i18n world soon! This work is currently in the mimelib (email) CVS tree, at: http://sourceforge.net/projects/mimelib The Mailman patch has not yet been integrated, but for curious folks, please check out: http://nausicaa.interq.or.jp/mailman/uber-i18n.patch If you have an up-to-date CVS email module installed, this patch will make Mailman send out correctly MIME encoded emails. Any feedback is appreciated. Ben -- Brought to you by the letters U and L and the number 7. "More testicles means more iron." Debian GNU/Linux maintainer of Gimp and Nethack -- http://www.debian.org/ From che@debian.org Thu Jan 31 09:02:38 2002 From: che@debian.org (Ben Gertzfield) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 18:02:38 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] HTML entities (é) in es, it, no translations Message-ID: <87u1t26ggh.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> Working on sending MIME emails through Mailman, I noticed that some of the translations are inconsistent in how they use HTML entity escapes. This becomes a problem when sending email. An example from the Spanish translation: #: Mailman/Cgi/create.py:221 bin/newlist:204 msgid "Your new mailing list: %(listname)s" msgstr "Su nuebva lista de distribución: %(listname)s" This is a real problem, because this string is sent literally -- with the string "ó" -- as the subject of the new email message. I looked in the HTML 4.01 standard and found that HTML entities are actually only intended to be used when the document's character set does not support that particular character. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/charset.html has more information on this. Since Mailman's CGI interface (in almost all cases) sends the correct charset in the Content-Type header, I think it's not necessary to use HTML entity escapes in the gettext catalog files. In fact, when we do use escapes, it makes text emails generated by Mailman illegible. Does anyone have any comments? I would like to go through the catalogs and change the HTML escapes back into the original characters, so that emails Mailman generates are correct again. The CGI interface will still work as before. Here is a first guess at which translations include HTML escapes besides < > and   : [ben@nausicaa:~/src/mailman/mailman/messages]% egrep '&[^;]+;' **/*.po | egrep -v ' |<|>' | cut -d : -f 1 | uniq es/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po it/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po no/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po So, the changes would only actually apply to the Spanish, Italian, and Norwegian translations. The rest of the translations are correctly in their original character sets. Ben -- Brought to you by the letters H and G and the number 18. "To Perl, or not to Perl, that is the kvetching." Debian GNU/Linux maintainer of Gimp and Nethack -- http://www.debian.org/ From jcrey@uma.es Thu Jan 31 09:54:51 2002 From: jcrey@uma.es (Juan Carlos Rey Anaya) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:54:51 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] HTML entities (é) in es, it, no translations References: <87u1t26ggh.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> Message-ID: <3C59146B.EEA64D82@uma.es> Ben Gertzfield escribi=F3: > ...Does anyone have any comments? I would like to go through the > catalogs and change the HTML escapes back into the original > characters, so that emails Mailman generates are correct again... Please, don't change any entity. I will do that. My changes on spanish catalog will be finished next week and then I will send them to Barry. Cheers --=20 ___ / F \ [[[]]]] ( O O ) #----------------0000--(_)--0000---------------# | Juan Carlos Rey Anaya (jcrey@uma.es) | | Servicio Central de inform=E1tica | | Universidad de M=E1laga - Espa=F1a | #----------------------------------------------# From loewis@informatik.hu-berlin.de Thu Jan 31 10:13:07 2002 From: loewis@informatik.hu-berlin.de (Martin von Loewis) Date: 31 Jan 2002 11:13:07 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] HTML entities (é) in es, it, no translations In-Reply-To: <87u1t26ggh.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> References: <87u1t26ggh.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> Message-ID: Ben Gertzfield writes: > Does anyone have any comments? I agree that the message catalogs should use the preferred encoding of the language, and not HTML entity or character references. There are a few issues to double-check before going forward with that, though: - for this to work, Mailman needs to properly declare the encoding of each generated HTML page, and the declaration needs to match the actual content. For Latin-1, this is not strictly necessary, since that is the default encoding of HTML, anyway, but there may be plans to move to XHTML some day, at which time even this assumption breaks. - Problems will arise if Mailman inserts strings from various sources into the same template, especially if these use different encodings. If that can ever happen, you need to recode all strings to the same encoding. If that fails (e.g. because the encoding is unknown, or because the string cannot be represented in the encoding), HTML entities may be your only option. Please have a look at http://www2.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard/po/registry.cgi?team=tr This document is encoded in ISO-8859-9 (for Turkish); but it still contains French accepts. Using entities is the only choice here, short of using UTF-8 for the entire page. In short, using the language's preferred encoding requires Mailman to carefully track the encoding of the message through its entire processing chain. If the encoding is supported by the codecs library, an alternative would be to use ugettext (so that the encoding is implied by the string being a Unicode object). Unfortunately, not all encodings in mailman are supported (the East Asians ones are missing). In general, I'd encourage usage of Unicode throughout in mailman, even if this means that additional codecs must be bundled with the distribution. Regards, Martin From che@debian.org Thu Jan 31 10:15:16 2002 From: che@debian.org (Ben Gertzfield) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 19:15:16 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] HTML entities (é) in es, it, no translations In-Reply-To: <3C59146B.EEA64D82@uma.es> (Juan Carlos Rey Anaya's message of "Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:54:51 +0100") References: <87u1t26ggh.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> <3C59146B.EEA64D82@uma.es> Message-ID: <87pu3q6d3f.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> >>>>> "Juan" == Juan Carlos Rey Anaya writes: Ben> ...Does anyone have any comments? I would like to go through Ben> the catalogs and change the HTML escapes back into the Ben> original characters, so that emails Mailman generates are Ben> correct again... Juan> Please, don't change any entity. I will do that. My changes Juan> on spanish catalog will be finished next week and then I Juan> will send them to Barry. Great! Thanks very much, Juan. Ben -- Brought to you by the letters Z and J and the number 4. "You should be glad you don't have diaper rash. Mah Jongg." Debian GNU/Linux maintainer of Gimp and Nethack -- http://www.debian.org/ From che@debian.org Thu Jan 31 11:31:59 2002 From: che@debian.org (Ben Gertzfield) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 20:31:59 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] HTML entities (é) in es, it, no translations In-Reply-To: (Martin von Loewis's message of "31 Jan 2002 11:13:07 +0100") References: <87u1t26ggh.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> Message-ID: <87lmee69jk.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> >>>>> "Martin" == Martin von Loewis writes: Martin> - for this to work, Mailman needs to properly declare the Martin> encoding of each generated HTML page, and the declaration Martin> needs to match the actual content. For Latin-1, this is Martin> not strictly necessary, since that is the default encoding Martin> of HTML, anyway, but there may be plans to move to XHTML Martin> some day, at which time even this assumption breaks. Actually, to be precise, HTML 4.01's native encoding is Unicode, which Latin-1 happens to be a (very small) subset of. Martin> - Problems will arise if Mailman inserts strings from Martin> various sources into the same template, especially if Martin> these use different encodings. If that can ever happen, Martin> you need to recode all strings to the same encoding. If Martin> that fails (e.g. because the encoding is unknown, or Martin> because the string cannot be represented in the encoding), Right now, I don't think Mailman does that anywhere. If it does, I think the best thing to do is to convert to Unicode. Unfortunately, as much as I'd like, we can't make *everything* Unicode, because a lot of older browsers still don't support it. Martin> This document is encoded in ISO-8859-9 (for Turkish); Martin> but it still contains French accepts. Using entities is Martin> the only choice here, short of using UTF-8 for the entire Martin> page. Yes. This kind of issue will come up only in two places in Mailman: 1) on the admin request page (for bounce handling, etc) 2) in the archives (a pipermail issue) Martin> Unfortunately, not all encodings in mailman are supported Martin> (the East Asians ones are missing). In general, I'd Martin> encourage usage of Unicode throughout in mailman, even if Martin> this means that additional codecs must be bundled with the Martin> distribution. Which East Asian ones are missing? Mailman CVS works beautifully for me with Japanese, and the screenshot I sent earlier today shows Chinese (both simplified and traditional) working in email. Barry and I have talked a lot about bundling codecs with Mailman, and he's agreed with me that we need to do it. The Japanese codec is in a good state and will be easy enough to ship; the Chinese ones are only available in CVS that I know of, so we will need to make a proper distribution. Ben -- Brought to you by the letters T and N and the number 12. "Hoosh is a kind of soup." Debian GNU/Linux maintainer of Gimp and Nethack -- http://www.debian.org/ From loewis@informatik.hu-berlin.de Thu Jan 31 13:24:24 2002 From: loewis@informatik.hu-berlin.de (Martin von Loewis) Date: 31 Jan 2002 14:24:24 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] HTML entities (é) in es, it, no translations In-Reply-To: <87lmee69jk.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> References: <87u1t26ggh.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> <87lmee69jk.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> Message-ID: Ben Gertzfield writes: > Actually, to be precise, HTML 4.01's native encoding is Unicode, > which Latin-1 happens to be a (very small) subset of. To be really precise, HTML 4.01's "document character set" is the "Universal Character Set" (as defined in ISO 10646), see http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/charset.html What the character encoding is is a different matter (Unicode is not a character encoding); that is transmitted as part of the HTTP response. As the document above points out, the default encoding, if none is specified, is Latin-1 (they also point out that it is bad to rely on that). > Unfortunately, as much as I'd like, we can't make *everything* > Unicode, because a lot of older browsers still don't support it. That is completely irrelevant; Unicode is *not* a character encoding. In this context, it is a Python internal datatype. When producing HTML document, strings of that type need to be encoded in the target document encoding (which definitely will *not* be Unicode, but perhaps a Unicode encoding, such as UTF-8, or some other encoding). > Which East Asian ones are missing? Mailman CVS works beautifully > for me with Japanese, and the screenshot I sent earlier today shows > Chinese (both simplified and traditional) working in email. Python does not currently include codecs for iso-2022-jp, gb2312, big5, euc-jp, shift-jis. Since mailman leaves all strings as-is, and never mixes encodings, it can let them pass through unmodified. There are a number of pitfalls, though: - On mailing lists, people may use different encodings; some of the common combinations might be: European languages: ISO-8859-1, ISO-8859-15 (for the Euro), UTF-8 Japanese: ISO-2022-JP, eucJP, shift-jis, UTF-8 Chinese: gb2312, big5 This is probably an archive problem only; however, if mailman adds a footer, it will produce garbage if the footer encoding differs from the message body encoding. - To analyse the subject, Mailman needs to strip off the subject_prefix from the incoming message. If the message uses a MIME-encoded header, it may be that the subject prefix is base64 encoded. Currently, mailman fails to strip the prefix in this case. There is a patch on SF that tries to decode the subject. If the encoding is not known to Python, this will still fail. - To produce HTML pages, mailman needs to quote markup characters. For some encodings (e.g. iso-2022-jp), HTML markup character such as '<' may also occur as part of the multi-byte encoding. For these encodings, mailman currently performs no quoting at all. This is incorrect if an iso-2022-jp message contains a true '<' character, which would need to be converted to '<'. > The Japanese codec is in a good state and will be easy enough to > ship; the Chinese ones are only available in CVS that I know of, so > we will need to make a proper distribution. I'd encourage you to have a look at the iconv codec also. If the system iconv is powerful enough (e.g. on Linux glibc), all encodings of the world would be supported with that single codec. Regards, Martin From che@debian.org Thu Jan 31 14:08:34 2002 From: che@debian.org (Ben Gertzfield) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 23:08:34 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] HTML entities (é) in es, it, no translations In-Reply-To: (Martin von Loewis's message of "31 Jan 2002 14:24:24 +0100") References: <87u1t26ggh.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> <87lmee69jk.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> Message-ID: <87aduu62al.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> >>>>> "Martin" == Martin von Loewis writes: Martin> To be really precise, HTML 4.01's "document character set" Martin> is the "Universal Character Set" (as defined in ISO Martin> 10646), see Yes, many thanks. Martin> Python does not currently include codecs for iso-2022-jp, Martin> gb2312, big5, euc-jp, shift-jis. Since mailman leaves all Martin> strings as-is, and never mixes encodings, it can let them Martin> pass through unmodified. There are a number of pitfalls, Martin> though: I have been working actively on these problems. Hopefully we can ship these codecs with Mailman 2.1. Martin> This is probably an archive problem only; however, if Martin> mailman adds a footer, it will produce garbage if the Martin> footer encoding differs from the message body encoding. Martin> - To analyse the subject, Mailman needs to strip off the Martin> subject_prefix from the incoming message. The subject and footer issue is a good one, and needs some work. We basically need a map of charset -> localized "Re:" prefixes; with the new email module's i18n support, it's trivial to decode headers and make sure we don't add a [PREFIX] to a message with Re: [PREFIX] in the local language. I know German uses AW: -- does anyone have a list of commonly-used response prefixes in other languages? Japanese uses Re:, as far as I know. As for the footer.. hm. Needs more thought. I doubt anyone wants to add an attachment for the footer; I think the best thing to do would be to look up the body's charset in a table and attach a properly localized footer if it's found. If it's not found, no footer is attached. If the charset is not specified, assume us-ascii. What do you think? Martin> - To produce HTML pages, mailman needs to quote markup Martin> characters. For some encodings (e.g. iso-2022-jp), HTML Martin> markup character such as '<' may also occur as part of the Martin> multi-byte encoding. For these encodings, mailman Martin> currently performs no quoting at all. This is incorrect if Martin> an iso-2022-jp message contains a true '<' character, Martin> which would need to be converted to '<'. I have written a Python module that deals with this problem directly for iso-2022-jp; it would also be possible by converting to Unicode, doing HTML escaping, then converting to the output format. http://nausicaa.interq.or.jp/mailman/JisEscape.py Martin> I'd encourage you to have a look at the iconv codec Martin> also. If the system iconv is powerful enough (e.g. on Martin> Linux glibc), all encodings of the world would be Martin> supported with that single codec. Ah, if only all systems had such an iconv codec. I'm surprised iconv is so powerful on Linux glibc, yet gettext does not support iso-2022-jp directly. Ben -- Brought to you by the letters M and W and the number 4. "Ohhhh, Mentos Boy!" Debian GNU/Linux maintainer of Gimp and Nethack -- http://www.debian.org/ From loewis@informatik.hu-berlin.de Thu Jan 31 16:24:53 2002 From: loewis@informatik.hu-berlin.de (Martin von Loewis) Date: 31 Jan 2002 17:24:53 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-i18n] HTML entities (é) in es, it, no translations In-Reply-To: <87aduu62al.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> References: <87u1t26ggh.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> <87lmee69jk.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> <87aduu62al.fsf@nausicaa.interq.or.jp> Message-ID: Ben Gertzfield writes: > As for the footer.. hm. Needs more thought. I doubt anyone wants to > add an attachment for the footer; I think the best thing to do would > be to look up the body's charset in a table and attach a properly > localized footer if it's found. If it's not found, no footer is > attached. If the charset is not specified, assume us-ascii. > > What do you think? Sounds good. If the necessary codecs are available, one might try to recode the footer in the charset of the message, if no properly encoded footer is available. > Martin> I'd encourage you to have a look at the iconv codec > Martin> also. If the system iconv is powerful enough (e.g. on > Martin> Linux glibc), all encodings of the world would be > Martin> supported with that single codec. > > Ah, if only all systems had such an iconv codec. Should that stop you from using iconv where available? On a Debian system, you'll know it is present :-) > I'm surprised iconv is so powerful on Linux glibc, yet gettext > does not support iso-2022-jp directly. I'm not surprised. The traditional encoding on Unix is eucJP; and gettext/libc can transparently recode the message to any target format. So the catalog could be in eucJP, or utf-8, and you still could produce messages in iso-2022-jp. I just tried it on a catalog; msgfmt complained about two problems: for one thing, it complains that iso-2022-jp is not a portable character set name, i.e. that many systems apparently don't recognize this character set name. The other problem is that it complains about illegal escape sequences. I don't know where this comes from; it might be a gettext mbcs bug, or a glibc bug, or an error in my data. If you have real data which are not properly processed by msgfmt, please report that bug to Bruno Haible. I can't see any reason why gettext(3) would have any difficulties with iso-2022-jp. Regards Martin