From alain@mini.gt.owl.de  Wed Oct  4 18:46:47 2000
From: alain@mini.gt.owl.de (Alain Schroeder)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 19:46:47 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] German Translation
Message-ID: <20001004194647.H476@mini.gt.owl.de>

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I will start tomorrow to translate mailman into German...

Just that you know.

	Bye,
	  - -- Alain -- -

--=20
It should be illegal to yell "Y2K" in a crowded economy.
        -- Larry Wall, creator of the programming language Perl

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From carpe.com@gmx.de  Thu Oct  5 09:01:29 2000
From: carpe.com@gmx.de (Oliver Gassner)
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 10:01:29 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] German Translation
In-Reply-To: <20001004194647.H476@mini.gt.owl.de>
References: <20001004194647.H476@mini.gt.owl.de>
Message-ID: <e8dotsktgkv4rssq2k15ula7a6tql0q80a@4ax.com>

Your  (Alain Schroeder <alain@mini.gt.owl.de>) mail on Wed, 4 Oct
2000 19:46:47 +0200:

>I will start tomorrow to translate mailman into German...

Several people have...

I just am not iup2datre: _Is_ there a working version of mailman
that supports _real_ internationalis8tion.

So you don't have to start from scratch when the new version
comes out?

(I am not a techie ;) )

OG
-- 
Oft gefragt, hier beantwortet:  -- Macbeth-Inhaltsangabe: Macbeth 
ermordet  jeden auf dem Weg zum Koenigsthron. -- Interpretation: 
"Wird der Mensch von anderen verfuehrt oder verfuehrt er sich selbst
 zum 'Boesen'?" Mehr: Literatur am Draht--> http://www.carpe.com/lit/


From alain@mini.gt.owl.de  Wed Oct 11 20:57:07 2000
From: alain@mini.gt.owl.de (Alain Schroeder)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 21:57:07 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] German Translation
In-Reply-To: <e8dotsktgkv4rssq2k15ula7a6tql0q80a@4ax.com>; from carpe.com@gmx.de on Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 10:01:29AM +0200
References: <20001004194647.H476@mini.gt.owl.de> <e8dotsktgkv4rssq2k15ula7a6tql0q80a@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20001011215707.F507@mini.gt.owl.de>

On Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 10:01:29AM +0200, Oliver Gassner wrote:
> Your  (Alain Schroeder <alain@mini.gt.owl.de>) mail on Wed, 4 Oct
> 2000 19:46:47 +0200:
> 
> >I will start tomorrow to translate mailman into German...
> 
> Several people have...
> 
I haven´t seen anything on the archives of this list...

> I just am not iup2datre: _Is_ there a working version of mailman
> that supports _real_ internationalis8tion.
> 
Haven´t seen any.

> So you don't have to start from scratch when the new version
> comes out?
>
> (I am not a techie ;) )
> 
<aol>Me too!</aol>

Well at the moment I try to understand python a bit... <fg> 

If I ever understand Python then I will write a little function like
this:

get_i18n(file, "digest_and_memb_not_from_stdin", "Sorry, can't read both digest *and* normal members from stdin.")

Well then of course we need something like a po file. I do not know how
.po files are structured, but I would just use a normal ASCII file,
because I do not want to write a UTF8/UTF16/UTF32 converter.

And then there is also the question, if you can use UTF with your
console, etc. But upgrading from my proposed version to UTF should be
relativly easy. A new function and a script to convert the already
existant file into a UTF file.

	Bye,
	  - -- Alain -- -

-- 
This is Linux Country. On a quiet night, you can hear Windows NT reboot!


From carpe.com@gmx.de  Thu Oct 12 08:04:47 2000
From: carpe.com@gmx.de (Oliver Gassner)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:04:47 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] German Translation
In-Reply-To: <20001011215707.F507@mini.gt.owl.de>
References: <20001004194647.H476@mini.gt.owl.de> <e8dotsktgkv4rssq2k15ula7a6tql0q80a@4ax.com> <20001011215707.F507@mini.gt.owl.de>
Message-ID: <rhoausott854fegd7h4rj6i2pqtp3e468l@4ax.com>

Your  (Alain Schroeder <alain@mini.gt.owl.de>) mail on Wed, 11
Oct 2000 21:57:07 +0200:

>On Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 10:01:29AM +0200, Oliver Gassner wrote:
>> Your  (Alain Schroeder <alain@mini.gt.owl.de>) mail on Wed, 4 Oct
>> 2000 19:46:47 +0200:
>> 
>> >I will start tomorrow to translate mailman into German...
>> 
>> Several people have...
>> 
>I haven´t seen anything on the archives of this list...

Then forget about the archives. IIRC theer were at least 3
Postings here and half a dozen on the 'old' mailman List before
this one was founded.

OG
-- 
Oft gefragt, hier beantwortet:  -- Macbeth-Inhaltsangabe: Macbeth 
ermordet  jeden auf dem Weg zum Koenigsthron. -- Interpretation: 
"Wird der Mensch von anderen verfuehrt oder verfuehrt er sich selbst
 zum 'Boesen'?" Mehr: Literatur am Draht--> http://www.carpe.com/lit/


From vic@vgg.sci.uma.es  Tue Oct 17 14:06:42 2000
From: vic@vgg.sci.uma.es (Victoriano Giralt)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:06:42 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Internationalized Mailman
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010170845410.7783-100000@vgg.sci.uma.es>

Hi all,

Sorry for the delay, but I've been learning new tricks (a difficult task
for an old dog, you know :).

The proposed road has already been taken using standard GNU tools, and we
have arrived at a nice destination: a working internationalized version of
Mailman 1.2 that we have had to put into production for political reasons.

Barry Warsaw has given us homework to do so we can get a 2.1
internationalized Mailman as soon as 2.0 is out. We are slowly starting to
do them, so any help would be very much appreciated.

I think we should coordinate the efforts to avoid reinventing the wheel.

Comments anyone? (Barry?)


On Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 10:01:29AM +0200, Oliver Gassner wrote:
> Your  (Alain Schroeder <alain@mini.gt.owl.de>) mail on Wed, 4 Oct
> 2000 19:46:47 +0200:
> 
> >I will start tomorrow to translate mailman into German...
> 
> Several people have...
> 
I haven´t seen anything on the archives of this list...

> I just am not iup2datre: _Is_ there a working version of mailman
> that supports _real_ internationalis8tion.
> 
Haven´t seen any.

> So you don't have to start from scratch when the new version
> comes out?
>
> (I am not a techie ;) )
> 
<aol>Me too!</aol>

Well at the moment I try to understand python a bit... <fg> 

If I ever understand Python then I will write a little function like
this:

get_i18n(file, "digest_and_memb_not_from_stdin", "Sorry, can't read both
digest *and* normal members from stdin.")

Well then of course we need something like a po file. I do not know how
.po files are structured, but I would just use a normal ASCII file,
because I do not want to write a UTF8/UTF16/UTF32 converter.

And then there is also the question, if you can use UTF with your
console, etc. But upgrading from my proposed version to UTF should be
relativly easy. A new function and a script to convert the already
existant file into a UTF file.



-- 
Victoriano Giralt
Systems Programmer
Central Computing Facility
University of Málaga
SPAIN






From alain@mini.gt.owl.de  Wed Oct 18 22:37:41 2000
From: alain@mini.gt.owl.de (Alain Schroeder)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 23:37:41 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Internationalized Mailman
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010170845410.7783-100000@vgg.sci.uma.es>; from vic@vgg.sci.uma.es on Tue, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:06:42PM +0200
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010170845410.7783-100000@vgg.sci.uma.es>
Message-ID: <20001018233741.B1683@mini.gt.owl.de>

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On Tue, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:06:42PM +0200, Victoriano Giralt wrote:
> Hi all,
>=20
> Sorry for the delay, but I've been learning new tricks (a difficult task
> for an old dog, you know :).
>=20
> The proposed road has already been taken using standard GNU tools, and we
> have arrived at a nice destination: a working internationalized version of
> Mailman 1.2 that we have had to put into production for political reasons.
>=20
> Barry Warsaw has given us homework to do so we can get a 2.1
> internationalized Mailman as soon as 2.0 is out. We are slowly starting to
> do them, so any help would be very much appreciated.
>=20
> I think we should coordinate the efforts to avoid reinventing the wheel.
>=20
What we need is a gettext (at least alike) function. When we got that,
n=B2 people can edit one of the executables und voila, we have a i18n=B4ed
version. Then we can start to translate. (I am overlooking something,
don=B4t I - it can=B4t be that easy)
And I would suggest, that we have one subdirectory per language for all=20
the templates.

So what am I missing?

	Bye,
	  - -- Alain -- -

=B2 n =3D number of files which are executable.

--=20
"Titanic 12 ... Hindenburg Zeppelin 37 ... Microsoft Windows 98"

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From vic@vgg.sci.uma.es  Thu Oct 19 08:26:32 2000
From: vic@vgg.sci.uma.es (Victoriano Giralt)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:26:32 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Internationalized Mailman
In-Reply-To: <20001018233741.B1683@mini.gt.owl.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010190920080.10249-100000@vgg.sci.uma.es>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Alain Schroeder wrote:

> > 
> What we need is a gettext (at least alike) function. When we got that,
> n² people can edit one of the executables und voila, we have a i18n´ed
> version. Then we can start to translate. (I am overlooking something,
> don´t I - it can´t be that easy)
> And I would suggest, that we have one subdirectory per language for all 
> the templates.
That is exactly what we have already. It is not a gettext alike, it is the
'pythonized' real thing. We used Barry's pygettext to get the strings a
RedHat's Anaconda gettext.py, that reads gettext PO files with the
substitution strings, and we have a multilingual directory structura both
for the templates and for the messages. It is running in production at
http://correo.uma.es/ using our mods to a 1.2 Mailman. At this moment in
time we are working on getting te work redone with 2.0 sources because for
work reasons we got out of synch with the Cabal development. We have been
coordinating some efforts privately with Barry because we think we are not
ready to go mainstream. The I18N effort is top of Barry's list for post
2.0 work.

-- 
Victoriano Giralt
Systems Programmer
Central Computing Facility
University of Málaga
SPAIN



From jcrey@uma.es  Thu Oct 19 12:55:51 2000
From: jcrey@uma.es (Juan Carlos Rey Anaya)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:55:51 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Internationalized Mailman
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010170845410.7783-100000@vgg.sci.uma.es> <20001018233741.B1683@mini.gt.owl.de>
Message-ID: <39EEE147.320F8FFD@uma.es>

Alain Schroeder wrote:
> 
> What we need is a gettext (at least alike) function. When we got that,
> n² people can edit one of the executables und voila, we have a i18n´ed
> version. Then we can start to translate. (I am overlooking something,
> don´t I - it can´t be that easy)
> And I would suggest, that we have one subdirectory per language for all
> the templates.
> 
> So what am I missing?
> 
Your have missed the messages than Victoriano Giralt and me, sent to
developers list, discussing about this subject, one YEAR ago.

Please, refer to:
http://www.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/1999-May/003643.html
http://www.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/1999-June/003695.html
http://www.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/1999-October/003978.html

to understand WHAT IS DONE YET.

I'm going to start to integrate i18n changes to mailman 2.
I need volunteers to acoplish this task, so time con be shorter.

So finish thinking about how to get messages translated and gave us a
hand :-)

The one who wish to contribute to this proyect, please let this list
know.
Cheers
-- 
                          ___
                         / F \
                        [[[]]]]
                        ( O O )
   #----------------0000--(_)--0000---------------#
   |    Juan Carlos Rey Anaya (jcrey@uma.es)      |
   |      Servicio Central de informática         |
   |       Universidad de Málaga - España         |
   #----------------------------------------------#
   #      Solo se que cada vez se menos :-|       #
   #----------------------------------------------#


From barry@wooz.org  Thu Oct 19 14:16:48 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:16:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Internationalized Mailman
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010170845410.7783-100000@vgg.sci.uma.es>
 <20001018233741.B1683@mini.gt.owl.de>
 <39EEE147.320F8FFD@uma.es>
Message-ID: <14830.62528.97077.763010@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "JCRA" == Juan Carlos Rey Anaya <jcrey@uma.es> writes:

    JCRA> I'm going to start to integrate i18n changes to mailman 2.
    JCRA> I need volunteers to acoplish this task, so time con be
    JCRA> shorter.

Yes.  My TOP priority for Mailman 2.1 is i18n.  2.1 will require at
least Python 2.0, which comes with a gettext module and pygettext.

-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 23 07:24:22 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 02:24:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Internationalized Mailman
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010170845410.7783-100000@vgg.sci.uma.es>
 <20001018233741.B1683@mini.gt.owl.de>
Message-ID: <14835.55702.207147.499567@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "AS" == Alain Schroeder <alain@mini.gt.owl.de> writes:

    AS> What we need is a gettext (at least alike) function.

    AS> So what am I missing?

That Mailman 2.1 will require Python 2.0, and Python 2.0 comes with a
gettext module!  This should provide everything you need to do I18N in
Python.  If not, then we should consider that a bug in Python's
support for I18N, and Mailman will be the first real big test of
that.

Cheers,
-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Wed Oct 25 05:34:11 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 00:34:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Internationalized Mailman
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010170845410.7783-100000@vgg.sci.uma.es>
Message-ID: <14838.25283.257870.198447@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "VG" == Victoriano Giralt <vic@vgg.sci.uma.es> writes:

    VG> Barry Warsaw has given us homework to do so we can get a 2.1
    VG> internationalized Mailman as soon as 2.0 is out. We are slowly
    VG> starting to do them, so any help would be very much
    VG> appreciated.

Because I want to explore on my own about the right way to
internationalize a big app like Mailman, I've started in my spare time
to play with this.  So I would suggest breaking the problem up into
pieces, and submitting separate patches for each piece.

One piece is marking all the translatable text in the Mailman sources.
You should work on this last and don't spend much time on it.  I'm
actually starting to do that myself, as I'm playing with the i18n
infrastructure.

A second piece is creating the mechanisms for selecting languages on a
per user, per list basis, etc.  I'd like to see what you guys have
come up with here.

A third piece is all the translations (i.e. po and mo files).  We can
use the GNU Translation project to help here, once we've generated the
.pot files.

I'll try to send out snapshots of some of the things I'm thinking
about after 2.0 final goes out.

-Barry


From eric@dehont.dyn.dhs.org  Mon Oct 30 05:07:08 2000
From: eric@dehont.dyn.dhs.org (Eric)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 06:07:08 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] How to do it
Message-ID: <200010300507.e9U578Q01240@dehont.dyn.dhs.org>

I'm using using Mailman 2.0rc1 since 2 days and am wondering which 
steps to take to translate the user interface to Dutch.

(Perhaps someone has done that already?)

I suppose I should start with translating the files in ./template, taking 
a good guess about how the embedded variables will turn up...

I have a feeling that when I'm finished I've created a system which 
presents the user with a weird mixture of Dutch and English.

What should be my next steps, considering I know nothing about Python?

I've read that with Mailman 3 translating the UI will get serious 
consideration, but I don't want to wait even if the results of
translating Mailman 2.0rc1 will be less than perfect.

Greetings,

Eric de Hont



From vic@vgg.sci.uma.es  Tue Oct 31 14:30:42 2000
From: vic@vgg.sci.uma.es (Victoriano Giralt)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 15:30:42 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Mailman-i18n] Internationalized Mailman
In-Reply-To: <14838.25283.257870.198447@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010311306150.32326-100000@vgg.sci.uma.es>

On Wed, 25 Oct 2000, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

> 
> One piece is marking all the translatable text in the Mailman sources.
> You should work on this last and don't spend much time on it.  I'm
> actually starting to do that myself, as I'm playing with the i18n
> infrastructure.
This is the cornerstone of the I18N effort. The problem is that it can
block the testing of the other pieces. It is a bit daunting task, we did
it twice (1.0b6 and 1.2), and, of course, will be more than willing to
offload it to someone :) Our idea for this part of the project was to use
the scarce voluteers' help (see bottom) to work in this task, in order to
get it done as quick as possible, so we can start the other two pieces, 
that can be done in parallel.
> 
> A second piece is creating the mechanisms for selecting languages on a
> per user, per list basis, etc.  I'd like to see what you guys have
> come up with here.
This part has, also, been done with 1.2, which we have successfully put
into production due to managerial decisions in our University. It works
like charm, except some glitches that Juan C. has patched. To get this
functionallity we have done the following changes and additions:

+ To the list object:
	- Added 'preferred_language' attribute, for the list default
		language
	- Added 'language' dictionary with the users' preferred language,
		the user mailaddress is the key to get the language she
		has set for the list.
	- Added the neccesary methods for setting and getting these.
	- Added a method for listing the available languages for the list.

+ Created functions in Utilites for:
	- Getting the server available languages.
	- Getting the language descriptions.
	- Getting the language charset.

+ HTML formatting.
	- Add the necesary code for generating selects.

+ Default.py
	- Some Barry Warsaw, decided to put the common code for language
		initialization at the bottom of this module.

+ Showering all over the code.
	- Added the necesary changes for language selection.

+ Storage.
	- Creating directories for holding language specific files in
		every list.
	- Creating directory hierarchy for catalogs and templates.

+ Support scripts.
	- newlang, to add languages to a list.
	- rmlang, opposite of above.

+ gettext.py
	- Modify to addapt to our requirements. (Changes sent to author).

As you can see this is a surgeon's task. This part must be carefully done
by a very reduced team ( = JCR+VG :)

This has already been done, so our intention is to read the new code and
locate the places to make the changes.

> 
> A third piece is all the translations (i.e. po and mo files).  We can
> use the GNU Translation project to help here, once we've generated the
> .pot files.
We have a good team of volunteers for some languages, which have already
done translations of the .po files for 1.2 into danish, english, german,
italian, spanish and mostly czec. Some others have shown interest in
languages as gallician, basque, japanesse, brazilian/portuguesse and
dutch. We think this could proceed in parallel with the second piece, of
course, it cannot start before we have done the first piece.

------------------------
Enclosed list of volunteers up to this date:
felix.sanchez@cica.es	Félix Sánchez
omar@dit.upm.es 	Omar Walid Llorente
EricdeHont@netscape.net	Eric de Hont

Contributors:
Dan Ohnesorg
Mads Kiilerich <mk@solit.dk>
Peter Muessig-Trapp <muessig@his.de>
Pioppo  <pioppo@ferrara.linux.it>
Eduardo Fernandez Corrales

-- 
Looking-forward-for-more-volunteers-ly,
Juan C. Rey & Victoriano Giralt