From godricglow at gmail.com  Tue Mar  1 01:24:17 2016
From: godricglow at gmail.com (Pranjal Yadav)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 12:09:17 +0545
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Resuming mailman contribution
In-Reply-To: <CAE2E6m=XioRK0-UDFzupEyxd=POS1Cjaoj9Ezqp9Grh87tiPrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE2E6m=XioRK0-UDFzupEyxd=POS1Cjaoj9Ezqp9Grh87tiPrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE2E6mnt8zNrTTnuRCq7egAdkB6R4OAOSSD=aWCFWV21okBLVA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

For those who don't know me,  I was a part of GSoC 2015 with Mailman, I
worked on the dynamic sublists aka dlist project. Terri and Steve mentored
me for this project and except for the timezone issue, I felt the
mentorship was one of the best experiences I have had in past few years,
Also Barry and Florian constantly helped me enhance my knowledge about mm3,
In totality it was a great experience. By the end of my project I started
with my first job and it was quite a hassle for few months, as soon as I
was about to settle I got a better opportunity and I switched. So long
story short I'm finally getting back after 6 months and its a wonderful
feeling.

I will take some time and resume the additional pieces that I missed in my
project, I'm more than happy to assist new GSoC applicants and share my
knowledge about Mailman core. I will try my best to answer your questions.

@Abhilash: Lets get in touch whenever you are free.

From saurav24007 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  1 01:56:18 2016
From: saurav24007 at gmail.com (Saurav Kumar)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 06:56:18 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] About working on Issue #67
Message-ID: <CABk3WVFmz1fqoz9=SqamZErq-BC9VPG8YQxd=G8LLCzARmRojw@mail.gmail.com>

I went through the slide "
https://speakerdeck.com/pyconslides/internationalization-and-localization-done-right-by-ruchi-varshney
" and then also through ZANATA webpage. I believe that i would be able to
work on this issue, to get start to contribute to Mailman

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar  1 02:18:57 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 23:18:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 2.1.21 Final Release
In-Reply-To: <56D38370.6060602@msapiro.net>
References: <56D38370.6060602@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56D54261.3000404@msapiro.net>

On 02/28/2016 03:32 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> I am pleased to announce the release of Mailman 2.1.21.


It always happens. The only question is how. The thing is discovery of a
bug immediately after a release. This time the how was my PGP signature
being broken in the outgoing messages from 2 of the 4 lists I posted the
announcement to.  I have fixed the bug
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1551075>. As far as I know it
only affects messages signed as PGP/MIME, not inline PGP, by Enigmail 1.9

In any case, I'm considering another release in a month or so which
opens another window for i18n updates. I strongly encourage anyone with
an interest in translations of Mailman to get the 2.1.21 release and
help with updating the translations. I did receive some updates for
2.1.21, but at this point the only translations that are 100% complete
are German, Japanese and Russian. If you can help with any of the
others, I encourage you to do so.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Tue Mar  1 07:36:28 2016
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 12:36:28 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Regexp filtering
In-Reply-To: <22228.40428.554323.692451@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <BLUPR01MB12364195988F44AC1C93545AADA70@BLUPR01MB1236.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <22224.34168.628954.746288@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <56D0A6DC.2000903@msapiro.net>
 <22225.11769.251788.350761@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160229134112.3f41793e@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22228.40428.554323.692451@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20160301123628.GF21217@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Tue, Mar 01, 2016 at 04:37:16AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Barry Warsaw writes:
> 
>  > IBan would need to have a flag which indicate whether the `email`
>  > is a literal address or a pattern.  I don't think it's worth having
>  > two separate interfaces/models, but we might want to rename `email`
>  > to something more generic (`pattern` would be fine, with the
>  > understanding that is_regexp=False means the pattern is a literal).
> 
> Are regexps sufficiently slow that *always* using a regexp would hurt
> performance?[1]  The model I really had in mind was to always use
> regexps, and have a flag in the UI (Postorius) to regexp-quote when
> the user wants a literal.

Or could we meet user expectations (real users, not geeks), and just
interpret * and ? (for example) as being regexp values, as well as
letting power users use more complicated regexps?

Essentially the two classes:

Simples:
    *@mail.ru
    *@*mail.ru
    ?????@mail.ru

Power-user:
    ^.*\+.*?\d{3,}@
    \.*j\.*o\.*e\.*b\.*l\.*o\.*w\.*+.*@gmail\.com

    and the sort we saw in the threads around bot subscriptions and
    regexps on Mailman-user?
    

Off the top of my head, the syntax would define if it's an absolute
address (foo at example.com) vs a regexp.

-- 
"I never make predictions. I never have, and I never will."
    -- Tony Blair

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Mar  1 09:13:18 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 23:13:18 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Regexp filtering
In-Reply-To: <20160301123628.GF21217@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
References: <BLUPR01MB12364195988F44AC1C93545AADA70@BLUPR01MB1236.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <22224.34168.628954.746288@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <56D0A6DC.2000903@msapiro.net>
 <22225.11769.251788.350761@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160229134112.3f41793e@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22228.40428.554323.692451@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160301123628.GF21217@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
Message-ID: <22229.41854.924063.535001@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Adam McGreggor writes:

 > Or could we meet user expectations (real users, not geeks), [and
 > allow glob syntax].

Definitely worth discussing, but my initial reaction is negative for
the reasons discussed below.

 > Simples:
 >     *@mail.ru
 >     *@*mail.ru
 >     ?????@mail.ru

Are those anchored?  At the beginning of string?  At end?  Is there
really a use case for "?"?  I don't see this as an obvious feature.
Globs are also too blunt for the use case, especially since bad actors
do deliberately use fine distinctions between well-known domains and
their own sinkholes of depravity when phishing.  Users are likely to
be lazy, using "*@*mail.ru" to catch both "badactor at mail.ru" and
"badactor at spamsource.mail.ru", trashing "niceguy at goodmail.ru"'s posts
in the process.

 > Off the top of my head, the syntax would define if it's an absolute
 > address (foo at example.com) vs a regexp.

"foo at example.com" is unambiguous, but "foo+mailman at example.com" is
not.  That's a big trap for users, who surely know exactly what they
mean by that (and it's not foooooooooooomailman at example.com!)

In theory we could use globs as well (some of the modern VCSes permit
glob or regexp syntax), but it's not a serious data loss issue for a
VCS if a mistake is made.  You just run the add command again with -f,
or uncommit, or whatever.  Granted, a perverse enough user could fail
to add a file, commit, then overwrite the file, but this is much less
serious than the possibility that a particular user would end up as
collateral damage to a spam filter.

Steve

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Mar  1 09:13:44 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 23:13:44 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers]  About working on Issue #67
In-Reply-To: <CABk3WVFmz1fqoz9=SqamZErq-BC9VPG8YQxd=G8LLCzARmRojw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABk3WVFmz1fqoz9=SqamZErq-BC9VPG8YQxd=G8LLCzARmRojw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22229.41880.267500.549260@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

I'm certainly happy to see somebody interested in working on this!
However, I have some questions about exactly what the development
strategy should be (see my comment on #67).  We should talk about it
on this list so everybody sees it, then move to #67 (or wherever) when
the strategic issues are clear.

Are you thinking about doing this for GSoC?  If so, we all need to
talk about this and get it nailed down.  This kind of thing can be a
real hairball, something that you don't want to do "on deadline".  I
don't want to scare you away, it could be quite straightforward, too.
But let's start talking now.  Again, if GSoC, I'm quite unclear on
where the "code" (GSoC only supports coding projects) comes in.  Could
be I'm just blind :-) but let's nail that one down too.

From barry at list.org  Tue Mar  1 09:26:13 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:26:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Regexp filtering
In-Reply-To: <22229.41854.924063.535001@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <BLUPR01MB12364195988F44AC1C93545AADA70@BLUPR01MB1236.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <22224.34168.628954.746288@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <56D0A6DC.2000903@msapiro.net>
 <22225.11769.251788.350761@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160229134112.3f41793e@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22228.40428.554323.692451@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160301123628.GF21217@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <22229.41854.924063.535001@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20160301092613.7da82b0b@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 01, 2016, at 11:13 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

>In theory we could use globs as well (some of the modern VCSes permit
>glob or regexp syntax), but it's not a serious data loss issue for a
>VCS if a mistake is made.  You just run the add command again with -f,
>or uncommit, or whatever.  Granted, a perverse enough user could fail
>to add a file, commit, then overwrite the file, but this is much less
>serious than the possibility that a particular user would end up as
>collateral damage to a spam filter.

globs make sense for file system operations, and we've been using them for
decades in shells.  I think globs make less sense for header value pattern
matching.

Cheers,
-Barry

From saurav24007 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  1 09:25:56 2016
From: saurav24007 at gmail.com (Saurav Kumar)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 14:25:56 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] About working on Issue #67
In-Reply-To: <22229.41880.267500.549260@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CABk3WVFmz1fqoz9=SqamZErq-BC9VPG8YQxd=G8LLCzARmRojw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22229.41880.267500.549260@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CABk3WVEmi3CzsqNiNt8Qpe6EZg=y9iAiE9xxebcFDk4SGFFHrQ@mail.gmail.com>

No it wasn't for GSoC, i just wanted to do something in opensource and this
issue caught my attention as it was labelled as "beginner friendly" . I
went through the links attached and felt that i can do this.

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 2:13 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org>
wrote:

> I'm certainly happy to see somebody interested in working on this!
> However, I have some questions about exactly what the development
> strategy should be (see my comment on #67).  We should talk about it
> on this list so everybody sees it, then move to #67 (or wherever) when
> the strategic issues are clear.
>
> Are you thinking about doing this for GSoC?  If so, we all need to
> talk about this and get it nailed down.  This kind of thing can be a
> real hairball, something that you don't want to do "on deadline".  I
> don't want to scare you away, it could be quite straightforward, too.
> But let's start talking now.  Again, if GSoC, I'm quite unclear on
> where the "code" (GSoC only supports coding projects) comes in.  Could
> be I'm just blind :-) but let's nail that one down too.
>

From barry at list.org  Tue Mar  1 09:55:32 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:55:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] About working on Issue #67
In-Reply-To: <22229.41880.267500.549260@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CABk3WVFmz1fqoz9=SqamZErq-BC9VPG8YQxd=G8LLCzARmRojw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22229.41880.267500.549260@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20160301095532.54a2e507@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 01, 2016, at 11:13 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

>I'm certainly happy to see somebody interested in working on this!
>However, I have some questions about exactly what the development
>strategy should be (see my comment on #67).  We should talk about it
>on this list so everybody sees it, then move to #67 (or wherever) when
>the strategic issues are clear.

I added a comment in #67.

The core has a bunch of templates that need translation, although it's unclear
whether a gettext approach will help.  Probably we can just accept merge
requests for translated templates.

The core also has some translatable strings, mostly for substitutions into
fields that it creates out of whole cloth.  For those, gettext-extraction and
translation techniques will be helpful.

I'm happy to continue discussing both of the above in #67.

It's true that the bulk of the translation work project-wide will be for
Postorius and Hyperkitty.  Both of those are Django projects, and I'm sure
Django has i18n support, although I really don't know much about those
details.  To the extent that all subprojects can share infrastructure, great,
but that shouldn't come as a sacrifice for Django's natural i18n workflow.
Aurelien and Florian should probably describe how they want it to work for
those two projects.

Cheers,
-Barry

From barry at list.org  Tue Mar  1 09:57:09 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:57:09 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Resuming mailman contribution
In-Reply-To: <CAE2E6mnt8zNrTTnuRCq7egAdkB6R4OAOSSD=aWCFWV21okBLVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE2E6m=XioRK0-UDFzupEyxd=POS1Cjaoj9Ezqp9Grh87tiPrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE2E6mnt8zNrTTnuRCq7egAdkB6R4OAOSSD=aWCFWV21okBLVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160301095709.66beb6c9@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 01, 2016, at 12:09 PM, Pranjal Yadav wrote:

>For those who don't know me,  I was a part of GSoC 2015 with Mailman, I
>worked on the dynamic sublists aka dlist project. Terri and Steve mentored
>me for this project and except for the timezone issue, I felt the
>mentorship was one of the best experiences I have had in past few years,
>Also Barry and Florian constantly helped me enhance my knowledge about mm3,
>In totality it was a great experience. By the end of my project I started
>with my first job and it was quite a hassle for few months, as soon as I
>was about to settle I got a better opportunity and I switched. So long
>story short I'm finally getting back after 6 months and its a wonderful
>feeling.

Yay, welcome back!

We should make a push for getting dlists into the core.

Cheers,
-Barry

From parekhvatsal3 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  1 05:48:42 2016
From: parekhvatsal3 at gmail.com (Vatsal Parekh)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 16:18:42 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GSOC '16 Help
Message-ID: <CAApoSK7UZ=kc2HUwVXrwPsVQxB0wu-n59wuzukSVOq5avr15ew@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Devs,
I was going through the list of projects for GSOC '16, and mailman seemed
interesting. Though i read the FAQs, can anyone please guide me about how
to get started? there are a lot of projects, contribution, application and
all... what should be the first step to follow for me?
I am a intermediate python developer, have worked on couple of small
projects but haven't done any open source contribution yet.

Thanks,
Vatsal Parekh.

From godricglow at gmail.com  Tue Mar  1 14:03:30 2016
From: godricglow at gmail.com (Pranjal Yadav)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 00:48:30 +0545
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Resuming mailman contribution
In-Reply-To: <20160301095709.66beb6c9@subdivisions.wooz.org>
References: <CAE2E6m=XioRK0-UDFzupEyxd=POS1Cjaoj9Ezqp9Grh87tiPrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE2E6mnt8zNrTTnuRCq7egAdkB6R4OAOSSD=aWCFWV21okBLVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160301095709.66beb6c9@subdivisions.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <CAE2E6mnDkiiqFJb2svanVKkjqB=a5t0rRBR9g7WZJ48mJ5rdOw@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 Mar 2016 8:27 pm, "Barry Warsaw" <barry at list.org> wrote:
>
> On Mar 01, 2016, at 12:09 PM, Pranjal Yadav wrote:
>
> >For those who don't know me,  I was a part of GSoC 2015 with Mailman, I
> >worked on the dynamic sublists aka dlist project. Terri and Steve
mentored
> >me for this project and except for the timezone issue, I felt the
> >mentorship was one of the best experiences I have had in past few years,
> >Also Barry and Florian constantly helped me enhance my knowledge about
mm3,
> >In totality it was a great experience. By the end of my project I started
> >with my first job and it was quite a hassle for few months, as soon as I
> >was about to settle I got a better opportunity and I switched. So long
> >story short I'm finally getting back after 6 months and its a wonderful
> >feeling.
>
> Yay, welcome back!
>
> We should make a push for getting dlists into the core.

Sure Barry,  I'll traveling this week so starting next week first I'll
update the documentation and then I'll redo the testing part. Will keep you
posted

:)
> Cheers,
> -Barry
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives:
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/godricglow%40gmail.com
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9

From godricglow at gmail.com  Tue Mar  1 14:14:46 2016
From: godricglow at gmail.com (Pranjal Yadav)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 00:59:46 +0545
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GSOC '16 Help
In-Reply-To: <CAApoSK7UZ=kc2HUwVXrwPsVQxB0wu-n59wuzukSVOq5avr15ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAApoSK7UZ=kc2HUwVXrwPsVQxB0wu-n59wuzukSVOq5avr15ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE2E6mnu9299kfmAJm0BYAbh_P5xuEvo6ox-Dch95-AvKbY78Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Vatsal,

Welcome to the Mailman community

> Hey Devs,
> I was going through the list of projects for GSOC '16, and mailman seemed
> interesting. Though i read the FAQs, can anyone please guide me about how
> to get started? there are a lot of projects, contribution, application and
> all... what should be the first step to follow for me?

First you should do a local setup and make sure everything is working as
expected,  since you are new to Mailman it will take some time to setup.

> I am a intermediate python developer, have worked on couple of small
> projects but haven't done any open source contribution yet.

That is great,  intermediate knowledge of python is sufficient to get you
started, Once you are through the setup,  start organizing your thoughts
and decide which part of mailman are you comfortable with and then look for
aligned projects. Don't jump the gun yet, it might be the case that you
find a perfect project among the listed ones or you won't find anything at
all, be it either case you should start looking into beginner level bugs
and try to fix them. In the mean time get in touch with other devs on the
mailing list or IRC, you can certainly propose new projects and admins will
help you decide if they can be a part of GSoC pipeline or not.

All the best!
>
> Thanks,
> Vatsal Parekh.
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives:
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/godricglow%40gmail.com
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Mar  2 00:01:19 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 14:01:19 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] About working on Issue #67
In-Reply-To: <CABk3WVEmi3CzsqNiNt8Qpe6EZg=y9iAiE9xxebcFDk4SGFFHrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABk3WVFmz1fqoz9=SqamZErq-BC9VPG8YQxd=G8LLCzARmRojw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22229.41880.267500.549260@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CABk3WVEmi3CzsqNiNt8Qpe6EZg=y9iAiE9xxebcFDk4SGFFHrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22230.29599.842204.77685@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Saurav Kumar writes:

 > No it wasn't for GSoC,

OK, good!  Then you can work on this without time pressure.

 > i just wanted to do something in opensource and this issue caught
 > my attention as it was labelled as "beginner friendly" . I went
 > through the links attached and felt that i can do this.

OK, great!  You probably can!  And don't take my worries too
seriously.  I'm a professional worrier.  Every project should have one
-- and only one. :-)

And in terms of Python skills necessary, this project *is* beginner-
friendly.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Mar  2 00:31:38 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 14:31:38 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] About working on Issue #67
In-Reply-To: <20160301095532.54a2e507@subdivisions.wooz.org>
References: <CABk3WVFmz1fqoz9=SqamZErq-BC9VPG8YQxd=G8LLCzARmRojw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22229.41880.267500.549260@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160301095532.54a2e507@subdivisions.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <22230.31418.498504.312225@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Barry Warsaw writes:

 > It's true that the bulk of the translation work project-wide will be for
 > Postorius and Hyperkitty.  Both of those are Django projects, and I'm sure
 > Django has i18n support, although I really don't know much about those
 > details.

The OP is already aware of Django's I18N, so I think we're off to a
good start there.

 > To the extent that all subprojects can share infrastructure, great,
 > but that shouldn't come as a sacrifice for Django's natural i18n
 > workflow.  Aurelien and Florian should probably describe how they
 > want it to work for those two projects.

Agreed.  I think the main Django I18N frameworks end up producing
potfiles, so the translators should not have too much new
infrastructure to learn.

Steve

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Wed Mar  2 06:58:24 2016
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 11:58:24 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Regexp filtering
In-Reply-To: <20160301092613.7da82b0b@subdivisions.wooz.org>
References: <BLUPR01MB12364195988F44AC1C93545AADA70@BLUPR01MB1236.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <22224.34168.628954.746288@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <56D0A6DC.2000903@msapiro.net>
 <22225.11769.251788.350761@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160229134112.3f41793e@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22228.40428.554323.692451@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160301123628.GF21217@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <22229.41854.924063.535001@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160301092613.7da82b0b@subdivisions.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <20160302115824.GG21217@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Tue, Mar 01, 2016 at 09:26:13AM -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> globs make sense for file system operations, and we've been using them for
> decades in shells.  I think globs make less sense for header value pattern
> matching.

Looking at my sieve/procmail recipes, I rarely use globs (except in
blacklisting), it seems.

In the blacklisting case, it's against words in Subject: lines, as
well as Sender:/From: headers. I'd imagine (for those still using such
things), that's a fairly common approach.

-- 
"Ink is handicapped, in a way, because you can blow up a man with gunpowder in
 half a second, while it may take twenty years to blow him up with a book. But
 the gunpowder destroys itself along with its victim, while a book can keep on
 exploding for centuries."
    -- Christopher Morley

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Wed Mar  2 07:05:32 2016
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 12:05:32 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Regexp filtering
In-Reply-To: <22229.41854.924063.535001@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <BLUPR01MB12364195988F44AC1C93545AADA70@BLUPR01MB1236.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <22224.34168.628954.746288@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <56D0A6DC.2000903@msapiro.net>
 <22225.11769.251788.350761@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160229134112.3f41793e@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22228.40428.554323.692451@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160301123628.GF21217@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
 <22229.41854.924063.535001@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20160302120532.GH21217@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Tue, Mar 01, 2016 at 11:13:18PM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Adam McGreggor writes:
> 
>  > Or could we meet user expectations (real users, not geeks), [and
>  > allow glob syntax].
> 
> Definitely worth discussing, but my initial reaction is negative for
> the reasons discussed below.
> 
>  > Simples:
>  >     *@mail.ru
>  >     *@*mail.ru
>  >     ?????@mail.ru
> 
> Are those anchored?  At the beginning of string?  At end?  

'throughout'.


> Is there really a use case for "?"?  I don't see this as an obvious feature.

I'd imagine there could be some use for people wanting say, to handle
five-character localparts of an address, although it's an in-elegant
approach, it's something a user can understand, without needing to
understand regexp ("all our new subscriptions are five characters
before the @ sign. I want to block them").

> Globs are also too blunt for the use case, especially since bad actors
> do deliberately use fine distinctions between well-known domains and
> their own sinkholes of depravity when phishing. 

True. (I was picking on mail.ru, as it's one of the common ones that I
find quite irresponsible).

> Users are likely to
> be lazy, using "*@*mail.ru" to catch both "badactor at mail.ru" and
> "badactor at spamsource.mail.ru", trashing "niceguy at goodmail.ru"'s posts
> in the process.

Are they going to use *@* necessarily, or just *@? (unless they want
subdomains when "*@*.mail.ru" might be acceptable).

> 
>  > Off the top of my head, the syntax would define if it's an absolute
>  > address (foo at example.com) vs a regexp.
> 
> "foo at example.com" is unambiguous, but "foo+mailman at example.com" is
> not.  That's a big trap for users, who surely know exactly what they
> mean by that (and it's not foooooooooooomailman at example.com!)

Agree.

-- 
"applying logic to English slang is never a sound idea"
    -- Stephen Fry

From sujay.skumar141295 at gmail.com  Wed Mar  2 09:26:20 2016
From: sujay.skumar141295 at gmail.com (Sujay S Kumar)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 19:56:20 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Query regarding GSoC 2016
Message-ID: <CAOOiCoCaiR98edEncqyGg6K9-kg8TV7A0KaSHtguKRdWR43h4Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

My name is Sujay S Kumar, currently studying Computer Science and
Engineering at PES Institute of Technology, Bangalore.
I am interested in working on the list styles project as part of GSoC 16. I
have thorough knowledge of Django as I interned at Plivo and HackerEarth in
the Django profile.I am also one of the open source contributors to Django.

Please visit www.sujayskumar.com for more information about me.

Regards,
Sujay S Kumar
PES Institute of Technology,
Bangalore

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Mar  2 12:17:27 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 02:17:27 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Congratulations to us! We're officially in
 GSoC again!
Message-ID: <22231.8231.693695.648489@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

... especially to Florian, who seems to be on his way to becoming
MGOAFL (Mailman GSoC Org Admin For Life)[1].  And of course Barry (who
has a real -FL title!), and the mentors.

All that goes without saying, sort of, but I'd also like to mention
all the folks who have been following this list and occasionally
posting a comment or suggestion.  Another special thanks to several
folks who haven't signed up as mentors (yet! we can always use
more[2]) but have offered various kinds of advice.

And congratulations to Systers.  We'll be cooperating with the Systers
again this year, both for the dlist project Barry mentioned (good to
see you back, Pranjal!) and they have some stuff they're doing with
statistics dashboard for admins (subscriptions, unsubscriptions,
posts, etc.)

Comments on the GSoC ideas page (and more ideas!):

	 http://wiki.list.org/DEV/Google_Summer_of_Code_2016

are still very welcome.

Steve

Footnotes: 
[1]  Don't worry, Florian!  Eventually Google will kick us out. ;-)

[2]  You don't have to be particularly expert at anything, we'll make
sure that every student has a mentor technically proficient in the
project area.  As a co-mentor, you just need a strong desire to see
your intern grow, and to help them do that.  You choose how to do it!


From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Mar  2 12:28:45 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 02:28:45 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Congratulations to us! We're officially in
 GSoC again!
Message-ID: <22231.8909.121328.696402@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

... especially to Florian, who seems to be on his way to becoming
MGOAFL (Mailman GSoC Org Admin For Life)[1].  And of course Barry (who
has a real -FL title!), and the mentors.

All that goes without saying, sort of, but I'd also like to mention
all the folks who have been following this list and occasionally
posting a comment or suggestion.  Another special thanks to several
folks who haven't signed up as mentors (yet! we can always use
more[2]) but have offered various kinds of advice.

I'd also like to mention that we'd really like to be in cooperation
with the Systers again this year, both for the dlist project Barry
mentioned (good to see you back, Pranjal!) and they have some stuff
they're doing with statistics dashboard for admins (subscriptions,
unsubscriptions, posts, etc.)

Comments on the GSoC ideas page (and more ideas!):
http://wiki.list.org/DEV/Google_Summer_of_Code_2016
are welcome.

Steve

Footnotes: 
[1]  Don't worry, Florian!  Eventually Google will kick us out. ;-)

[2]  You don't have to be particularly expert at anything, we'll make
sure that every student has a mentor technically proficient in the
project area.  As a co-mentor, you just need a strong desire to see
your intern grow, and to help them do that!


From barry at list.org  Wed Mar  2 13:49:09 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 13:49:09 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Congratulations to us! We're officially in
 GSoC again!
In-Reply-To: <22231.8909.121328.696402@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <22231.8909.121328.696402@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20160302134909.6d2cf2d3@subdivisions.wooz.org>

Let me add my thanks and congratulations to the team and mentors, and welcome
to our prospective students, for what I'm sure will be another exciting GSoC
year for us.  It's great to see some contributions already coming in, and good
discussions already happening on this list.

Cheers,
-Barry

From sreyaschaithanya at gmail.com  Wed Mar  2 13:33:53 2016
From: sreyaschaithanya at gmail.com (Sreyas Chaithanya)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 00:03:53 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Regarding GSoC 2016 project ideas
Message-ID: <D7187F1B-4F59-42AD-8A6D-F7F14DF0A76F@gmail.com>

Hello,

I am Sreyas Chaithanya studying in Indian Institute of Technology (BHU), Varanasi. I found the GitLab/development tools integration idea interesting. I would like to work on that project in GSoC 2016. I wrote the core of an event management system in my college in Django and python2.7 but I?m also comfortable with python3. Could someone help me get started?

Regards,
S Sreyas Chaithanya,
IIT(BHU)


From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Thu Mar  3 12:20:24 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 22:50:24 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] ARC module implementation [was: GSOC 2016]
In-Reply-To: <22227.46658.971187.15287@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAAQRvQJSEEbbo-evCz5M5sGxtUkDPa1HRFcD+O7PqDDMNhpKPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <22196.7170.187271.561289@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQLYAHk7phzW+yrzxN444OAG-UQzwtYsJYKftZkkvkdLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <22203.1955.778022.464138@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQ+rLvmvs6UO6670LO+3YUSRQHpPKgANK51outYnf9Jb3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <22208.11596.382963.821315@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQLTogPi6SZxVfbQSyx6Af+QRtHtKSNtJgAS0zFzYAkDDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <22212.30504.386549.259204@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQKnfxMR5tyHiAHjpmCbigEJNL=dR4erj0wsVVtXoRJVRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22216.8262.735974.257856@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQJYfTTpXxV1mJrntC_3FTMwsei0vWBWpdLWxN36C7fJrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22218.23918.598335.172841@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQK6GwMfrWiU9ByOnXPr-4bnZ_0fbsH-WLyUmi=bDDw2MA@mail.gmail.com>
 <22227.46658.971187.15287@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQLGY-kRfxyJxRdD-cGLLaL2-DrbQAMf+dx8Wgd4GBP2OA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi!
Sorry for the late reply. I was caught up in my mid term exams.

Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:


> In Mailman 2, there are a number of options.  The one I recommend is
>
adding aol.com and yahoo.com to the subscription and poster ban
> lists.<0.7 wink/>  This has the advantage (?) of also being usable in
> Mailman 3.  A second is to configure the list without transforming the
> message at all (no Subject tags, header, or footer), thus preserving
> any valid DKIM signature.  This also works in Mailman 3.  These are
> standard configuration options which you might use anyway for
> completely different reasons.  However, they sort undermine the
> argument for using Mailman in the first place for many sites.
>
> Yes, I think these are more of workarounds than solutions, if I'm
qualified enough to say so!


> Finally, the most sophisticated alternative is to parse the address
> out of From, and do the DMARC DNS dance to determine if the sending
> domain has a p=reject or p=quarantine policy.  If so, use either the
> From-munging strategy or the MIME-wrapping strategy.  These still have
> the disadvantages described above, but they only apply to posts From
> domains abusing DMARC.
>
> Since the receiver is going to get the mail through the mailing list
anyway, personally I think that the From munging strategy is not a bad
idea. The only case where I can imagine this will create a problem is if I
am receiving the mail as a list posting, and that suppose I want to get all
mails that <Stephen Turnbull> sends to the list in a different folder, then
I might face problems since the from header is changed, not allowing the
from filter. I am not sure if that problem will be encountered that often
in context of mailing lists since we usually read all mails from  the list,
(since that is approximately the point behind mailing lists) unless we skip
some by their subject.  (I personally haven't used such a feature, since I
tend to keep all non-me-referencing general mail from the list in the same
folder.) I might be wrong here.

P.S. Also, I have noticed that there is a feature defined in the handlers
to cleanse all the dkim headers from a mail sent to the list before it is
forwarded to the subscribers. We could simply use this to extract the
previous dkim signature, and generate the ARC authentication results since
its a copy of the previous results.


Aditya.

From gurkirpal204 at gmail.com  Thu Mar  3 13:20:04 2016
From: gurkirpal204 at gmail.com (Gurkirpal Singh)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 23:50:04 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [GSoC] Guidance needed for GitLab issues
 project
Message-ID: <CAPBXt3hfmrGueWb9c7n637CKG_hZTgE-9VcE-F4PCX_u9mTXJA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, I'm interested in working on this project for the GSoC.
After some reading and thinking I have broken the project into the
following rough list of smaller jobs :
- Functionality for open issues.
- Ability to select some specific messages only or a link to discussion.
- Functionality for closing issues. In case, after some discussion it
is decided that opening the issue was a wrong idea.
- Duplicate issue notifier (like the one explained on the blog).
- Administration could be added which would require approval of some
authority before issue could be logged from the mailing list.
- Choice to open issue on some other site than GItLab

What else should i add or what should i remove from the above list?

As Mailman needs to interact with GitLab, I searched for some GitLab
API for python and found this
https://about.gitlab.com/applications/#api-clients
Is this right or there is some other way?

I still have only a fade idea about how I'm going to do it (as I started
on this only two days ago). I would like some help on this.

I have spent the last few days setting up Mailman for development and
reading through the archives and GSoC documents. I am now looking
forward to working on some easier issues.

About Me:
I am Gurkirpal Singh, a 20 years old student from India.
I have been coding in
Python for about an year.
I have some beginner level familiarity with Django  .I have worked on
some small open source projects. The  code is at github.com/gpalsingh
(but that's not all). I consider my skills
to be between beginner and intermediate. I'm don't have much problem
in reading others' code. I also have worked with some other languages
like C, C++, Java, PHP etc.

Thanks

From raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com  Thu Mar  3 14:46:21 2016
From: raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com (Abhilash Raj)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 11:46:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Query regarding GSoC 2016
In-Reply-To: <CAOOiCoCaiR98edEncqyGg6K9-kg8TV7A0KaSHtguKRdWR43h4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOOiCoCaiR98edEncqyGg6K9-kg8TV7A0KaSHtguKRdWR43h4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56D8948D.4020504@gmail.com>

Hi Sujay,

On 03/02/2016 06:26 AM, Sujay S Kumar wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> My name is Sujay S Kumar, currently studying Computer Science and
> Engineering at PES Institute of Technology, Bangalore.
> I am interested in working on the list styles project as part of GSoC 16. 

Welcome!

Just to let you know, the styles aren't exactly implemented in
Django(i.e the parts on Mailman 3 in django), but in Core. They define
the behavior of a mailing-list and can be thought as
list-settings-templates in mailman3 core. Although, this project would
also involve plumbing everything you implement through core's REST API
and adding an interface in the Postorius, the web UI in Django.

There has been some previous discussion on this topic and you can check
out the archives to find something to get started on this topic.

> have thorough knowledge of Django as I interned at Plivo and HackerEarth in
> the Django profile.I am also one of the open source contributors to Django.
> 
> Please visit www.sujayskumar.com for more information about me.
> 
> Regards,
> Sujay S Kumar
> PES Institute of Technology,
> Bangalore
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/raj.abhilash1%40gmail.com
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> 

-- 
thanks,
Abhilash Raj

From raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com  Thu Mar  3 15:55:53 2016
From: raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com (Abhilash Raj)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 12:55:53 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Regarding GSoC 2016 project ideas
In-Reply-To: <D7187F1B-4F59-42AD-8A6D-F7F14DF0A76F@gmail.com>
References: <D7187F1B-4F59-42AD-8A6D-F7F14DF0A76F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56D8A4D9.3010701@gmail.com>

Hi Shreyas,

I probably am late to reply and saw that you already got started on IRC.
But, yeah please let me know if you need any more help getting started
that isn't mentioned in Wiki page.

On 03/02/2016 10:33 AM, Sreyas Chaithanya wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I am Sreyas Chaithanya studying in Indian Institute of Technology (BHU), Varanasi. I found the GitLab/development tools integration idea interesting. I would like to work on that project in GSoC 2016. I wrote the core of an event management system in my college in Django and python2.7 but I?m also comfortable with python3. Could someone help me get started?
> 
> Regards,
> S Sreyas Chaithanya,
> IIT(BHU)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/raj.abhilash1%40gmail.com
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> 

-- 
thanks,
Abhilash Raj

From raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com  Thu Mar  3 16:24:55 2016
From: raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com (Abhilash Raj)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 13:24:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <CAN_O85tGHTU4+r9RAwdY7hrPtm_1+Y0ALjqunrZV1vmoejr-0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAN_O85tGHTU4+r9RAwdY7hrPtm_1+Y0ALjqunrZV1vmoejr-0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56D8ABA7.10007@gmail.com>

Hi Jasvir,

On 02/29/2016 11:25 AM, Jasvir Singh wrote:
> Hello everyone.
> I am Jasvir Singh Grewal, a graduate student from CSU Long Beach. I am
> feeling very excited to introduce myself on this mailing list. I have
> been working on open source technologies since 3 years. Last 2 years I
> have spent primarily working on Django and Python and it'll be a
> pleasure for me if I can use my skills for Mailman.

Thank you for taking out time to contribute to Mailman.

You can read more about how to get started on our GSoC wiki page[1].
Please just ignore the GSoC part, as right now it is the most
explanatory guide to getting started on the top of my mind. It also has
all the links to pages that you would need.

If you have questions please feel free to ask on this list or IRC.

[1]: http://wiki.list.org/x/17891941

> 
> Thank You
> 

-- 
thanks,
Abhilash Raj

From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Mar  4 00:47:13 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 14:47:13 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] ARC module implementation [was: GSOC 2016]
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQLGY-kRfxyJxRdD-cGLLaL2-DrbQAMf+dx8Wgd4GBP2OA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQJSEEbbo-evCz5M5sGxtUkDPa1HRFcD+O7PqDDMNhpKPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <22196.7170.187271.561289@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQLYAHk7phzW+yrzxN444OAG-UQzwtYsJYKftZkkvkdLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <22203.1955.778022.464138@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQ+rLvmvs6UO6670LO+3YUSRQHpPKgANK51outYnf9Jb3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <22208.11596.382963.821315@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQLTogPi6SZxVfbQSyx6Af+QRtHtKSNtJgAS0zFzYAkDDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <22212.30504.386549.259204@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQKnfxMR5tyHiAHjpmCbigEJNL=dR4erj0wsVVtXoRJVRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22216.8262.735974.257856@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQJYfTTpXxV1mJrntC_3FTMwsei0vWBWpdLWxN36C7fJrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22218.23918.598335.172841@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQK6GwMfrWiU9ByOnXPr-4bnZ_0fbsH-WLyUmi=bDDw2MA@mail.gmail.com>
 <22227.46658.971187.15287@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQLGY-kRfxyJxRdD-cGLLaL2-DrbQAMf+dx8Wgd4GBP2OA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22233.8545.641131.802135@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Aditya Divekar writes:

 > Since the receiver is going to get the mail through the mailing
 > list anyway, personally I think that the From munging strategy is
 > not a bad idea.

Yeah, everybody who advocates it "personally thinks" it's a not bad
strategy.  The problem is that it out-and-out violates the RFCs,
general ethics, and possibly copyright law, unless you think that
forwarding something verbatim with possible addition of non-editorial
content (eg, list serial numbers and subscription information in the
footer) makes you an author.  There's no other use case I can think of
where people seriously maintain that editors are authors.

One minor UI problem is that some MUAs can and are configured to
display a personal icon rather than the display name -- choice of
which is usually based on the email address.

To my mind, though, the big problem is that from-munging does cause a
number of technical problems, such as handling of reply-to.  There
simply is no satisfactory answer for all use cases that are served by
RFC 5322.  There is a minor functionality loss to sophisticated users,
and there is a real privacy risk (of posting what was intended as a
private message, mostly to naive users).

Anyway, I don't think this has anything to do with ARC, in the sense
that we can assume that we're going to invalidate the original DKIM
signature.  AFAICT, ARC needs to do its validation on the received
message, then add the headers on the way back out.  This will work
fine in the no-modification case as well.

 > P.S. Also, I have noticed that there is a feature defined in the
 > handlers to cleanse all the dkim headers from a mail sent to the
 > list before it is forwarded to the subscribers. We could simply use
 > this to extract the previous dkim signature, and generate the ARC
 > authentication results since its a copy of the previous results.

I don't understand what you mean by "extract the previous DKIM
signature and generate the ARC authentication results since it's a
copy of the previous results."

Among other things that seems to assume there was no forward between
you and the originating domain that might invalidate the original
signature.

Now, we need to be very careful to follow the protocol as set out by
the RFC.  I haven't looked recently (and don't have time to right
now), but I seem to recall that each ARC participant must validate all
header fields it vouches for (ie, signs in the ARC-Seal).  To me that
means that we need to provide the DKIM validation service in any case,
unless we 100% trust the MTA.  That means identifying our MTA's
Authentication-Results field, and trusting that our MTA removes any
Authentication-Results field that appears to be from our domain,
before adding an authentic Authentication-Results.

If there are trustworth MTAs in that sense, you could take the
strategy of requiring it, but we still might need to do some
validation that DKIM-enabled MTAs don't necessarily do, such as
earlier ARC fields.

Gotta run now, but really before we start trying to design the code,
we need to figure out exactly what we're required to do.

Steve

From garg.sanjana.95 at gmail.com  Fri Mar  4 03:07:22 2016
From: garg.sanjana.95 at gmail.com (Sanjana Garg)
Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2016 08:07:22 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GSOC 2016 - Contribution in Mailman
Message-ID: <CAD01K+ueOgu390dLTiLm6sBOEJP+CnpxPJVFdjTOw4+NSRsT-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I am Sanjana Garg, a third year undergraduate in the Department of Computer
Science and Engineering in IIT Kanpur. I am interesting in taking up the
project "Preset list setting templates".

I am proficient in python. It would be great if someone could guide me for
the intial tasks required for the same.

Thanks
Sanjana Garg

From raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com  Fri Mar  4 13:26:48 2016
From: raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com (Abhilash Raj)
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 10:26:48 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GSOC 2016 - Contribution in Mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAD01K+ueOgu390dLTiLm6sBOEJP+CnpxPJVFdjTOw4+NSRsT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD01K+ueOgu390dLTiLm6sBOEJP+CnpxPJVFdjTOw4+NSRsT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56D9D368.9000601@gmail.com>

Hi Sanjana,

On 03/04/2016 12:07 AM, Sanjana Garg wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I am Sanjana Garg, a third year undergraduate in the Department of Computer
> Science and Engineering in IIT Kanpur. I am interesting in taking up the
> project "Preset list setting templates".

Welcome!

As I have pointed students before to an older ongoing discussion on this
particular topic, I am gonna do the same for you. Here[1] is the link
for the thread that has been going on. You can go through the discussion
and let me know if you have questions or new ideas regarding anything.

> I am proficient in python. It would be great if someone could guide me for
> the intial tasks required for the same.

The GSoC wiki page talks extensively about how to get started with
setting up your development environment and working on some (at least
one for application) issues. Links to appropriate documentation and
issue trackers are also provided.


[1]:
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/msg16023.html


> Thanks
> Sanjana Garg
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/raj.abhilash1%40gmail.com
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> 

-- 
thanks,
Abhilash Raj

From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Sat Mar  5 05:57:31 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 16:27:31 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi!
I was looking around the mailman code, and could not find the functionality
for captcha in the mailing lists subscription pages.
I think it could be a good feature to implement in the upcoming versions,
and would like to know if its a good idea?
I also came across the thread -
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.mail.mailman.user/74167
and read about the previous discussion on it by some members.
Since captcha back then was easier to break, it might not have been a
profitable feature, according to the thread.
But with the new recaptcha, I would like to know if the stand is the same.

Thanks

Aditya

From simon.hanna at serve-me.info  Sat Mar  5 06:08:38 2016
From: simon.hanna at serve-me.info (Simon Hanna)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 12:08:38 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56DABE36.8070701@serve-me.info>

On 03/05/2016 11:57 AM, Aditya Divekar wrote:
> Hi!
> I was looking around the mailman code, and could not find the functionality
> for captcha in the mailing lists subscription pages.
> I think it could be a good feature to implement in the upcoming versions,
> and would like to know if its a good idea?
> I also came across the thread -
> http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.mail.mailman.user/74167
> and read about the previous discussion on it by some members.
> Since captcha back then was easier to break, it might not have been a
> profitable feature, according to the thread.
> But with the new recaptcha, I would like to know if the stand is the same.
The message you mentioned said that it might be because of lacking csrf protection.
With django all the forms are protected by csrf.

About captchas. If they are implemented, they would have to be optional in my opinion as they would
require signing up for a token with the captcha provider. Or were you thinking about implementing
your own service? I'm pretty sure there are django apps out there that add captcha support.
It would be a nice addition if it's optional. If it's not I guess it would need more discussion.


From chris at schoeppi.net  Sat Mar  5 06:38:47 2016
From: chris at schoeppi.net (Christian Schoepplein)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 12:38:47 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <56DABE36.8070701@serve-me.info>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DABE36.8070701@serve-me.info>
Message-ID: <20160305123847876614.99bd113c@schoeppi.net>

On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 12:08:38 > About captchas. If they are implemented, they would have to be 
> optional in my opinion as they would
> require signing up for a token with the captcha provider. 

Yes, if captchas really have to be implemented, please, please make them optional! For example many blind people are using mailman and captchas are a nightmare for them and from the point of view regarding accessibility in general.

Mailman 2.x is very accessible so far and unfortunatly I hadn't time to take a look if postorius is also good to use, but keeping mailman useable also for users with disabilities should be always kept in mind IMHO!

If spam protection mechanisms are needed, please think about better alternatives or make this mechanisms optional!

Thanks and all the best,

  Christian

-- 
Christian Schoepplein - chris at schoeppi.net - http://www.schoeppi.net

From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Sat Mar  5 07:03:31 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 17:33:31 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <20160305123847876614.99bd113c@schoeppi.net>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DABE36.8070701@serve-me.info>
 <20160305123847876614.99bd113c@schoeppi.net>
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQKiuUv-s9mdUfOpPdhqmQLa4jvoFJB+_a7ALSp3u6xTZg@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I was of the opinion that it could be an optional feature.

Making it compulsory would involve critical problems as mentioned above by
Christian, and might sometimes be disagreeable to list users who think its
an unnecessary overhead of time.

I was mostly basing this idea on the lines that it is easy to put in a spam
subscription request to the mailing lists now.
Implementing captcha could nip most of these attempts in the bud itself,
and save mailman the extra efforts of sending the confirmation link to the
subscriber.

Thanks.

Aditya

From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Sat Mar  5 12:00:23 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 22:30:23 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Basic workflow of the ARC implementation
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQLDcHfLiR3r5Z6T21OAhHXE+sWFU7MZ+vipn06j9O96vw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Steve!

Now going back to the implementation, the message needs to be signed after
its headers have been cooked, since they are included in some of the
signatures below.
So after the message headers have been cooked, and before the message has
been enqueued by the switchboards onto the various queues, we shall
catch the email, and perform the ARC operations on it as given below. After
this we can reinject the mail into the queues. This can be done by
modifying the process that handles the queuing of the mails.(This can be
done when the integration process into Mailman starts later on)

For now, I will assume that only the message is available to us in its
complete form after the list has cooked its headers.

We need to generate a private and a public key for the signing purposes.
For testing purposes, and while working on the code, I can probably
generate the keys locally using the openssl tool.

As a rough sketch of implementation,

1. ARC Seal

The tags -

NOTE - Now, here we needed to check the given message for any pre-existing
signatures in most of the fields. For this I think a separate module can be
created which can extract the previous ARC headers if they exist from the
message. The code for this can be again used from the dkimpy package.

i: The value for this tag can be determined by performing a check on the
original signature
and seeing if there were previous ARC headers. If yes, we increment the
value of the previous "i" by 1,
and if no, make it 1.
a: The value for this is fixed.

t,s,d: These can be obtained by using pre-existing dkimpy package.

b: Now we can compute the header hash using the dkimpy package again by
using the headers given here
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-andersen-arc-02#section-5.1.1.3>. Here,
we call the dkimpy package and get the signature for the above headers and
then affix it to the "b="header.

cv: Use the same check as "i", if there is already an ARC i.e. i>1, then we
make it as "V", else "N".

The ARC Seal gets computed here.

NOTE-For giving the "s" and "d" (selector and domain tag values), we will
need to produce records for these where the key can be stored so that it is
available for query by the verifiers (I still have to look up this
mechanism).

2. ARC Message Signature

The tags -

i: The value for this tag is determined similar to the "i" tag for the ARC
Seal.

a,t,s,d: These can again be obtained from the dkimpy package.

bh: The body hash. This can be obtained from the package. Here, we set the
canonicalization to 'relaxed' and get the body hash.

h: The "h=" header list is signed with the implicit list (as given in the
draft) and any explicit list that we want in addition.
Now, for mailing lists, the recommended headers are -
List-Id:List-Unsubscribe:List-Archive:List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe:Reply-To:
and any other fields added by the list like the Precedence, XTopics or
else.
We will also sign the DKIM signature of the previous mail here if
available(suggested by the draft).
For this signing, we can use a modified version where the
FROZEN_HEADERS(headers that are signed by default) will specify the
implicit headers                                     according to ARC
specs(Another option could be to get all the implicit+explicit headers
signed by the package, extract the h header, and modify it to include only
the explicit headers.)
b: The signature, calculated from the package. The h tag is used as
described above.


3. ARC Authentication Results.
The "i" tag simply takes on the value same as the above "i" tags.
Now from our previous conversation, as you suggested, the authenticity of
the previous MTA who sent us the mail is not sure to be trusted. So in the
case where we don't trust the previous MTA, we will have to perform our own
DMARC, SPF, DKIM testing of the recieved mail. If previous ARC chain exists
i.e. cv=V, then we perform the ARC test too.
Now for performing the tests -
In one of the earlier mails, we discussed the use of the "authres" package
for generating the authentication results header. The package conforms to
the RFC7001 format, and now the format used is RFC7601. But according to
the changes that I verified, we can use the package without any changes.
(The changes were mostly related to extra specifications that are optional.
Can be skipped for our purposes)
So the "authres" package can be called here for generating the AAR.

If we need to perform the ARC test, then the module for that will have to
be implemented manually. Though most of the code from the package for DKIM
verification can be used.
This is also the point where we detect if the mail is spam or not. If the
arc test fails, then there is something fishy here. DKIM, DMARC, SPF may
fail, but the failure of this test means the mail is not authentic. At this
point the mail should probably be discarded (or any other measures that
need to be taken).

Now coming to the testing part. There can be a number of tests like
verifying the generated ARC signature, changing the body of the message,
failing when the implicitly signed AMS headers are changed and other such
tests.

Is this the workflow you were expecting to see, or should I write a more
explanatory draft ?
I would like to know your review of this, so that I can figure out if I am
going wrong anywhere. :)

(Also wherever I have mentioned the use of dkimpy, a lot of custom
implementation is needed to suit our requirements. )

Thanks!

Aditya

From amil.12 at cse.mrt.ac.lk  Sat Mar  5 06:22:50 2016
From: amil.12 at cse.mrt.ac.lk (amil shanaka)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 16:52:50 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Developters] GSoC support
Message-ID: <CAJN8wG2BBxM+V6esAPdnGHE1rnG4JtvJoGWiX3F6sXiVryXkiw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
I'm a 3rd year under graduate in the department of Computer Science and
Engineering at University of Moratuwa, Sri Lanka

I tried to connect with mailing list in Mainman but it doesn't work.

I did my Internship In WSO2 Message Broker Team. so i learned  about
MQTT(with netty) and AMQP protocols about how message broker work with
sub/pub with topic,durable topics and also i did a research about off-heap
implementation for mb.

So I want to know more details regarding* Message queue based email
archiver *Project which i can proceed through.

Please Refer My LinkedIn: (amil shanaka
<https://lk.linkedin.com/in/amilshanaka>) for more detail about me and the
projects I've done so far.

Hope you will help me with this.

Thanks,

-- 

*Amil shanaka*

*Integrated Computer Engineering | University Of Moratuwa*

mobile : (+94) *718548973 *|  email : *catchamil at gmail.com*
<catchamil at gmail.com> | *amil.12 at cse.mrt.ac.lk <amil.12 at cse.mrt.ac.lk>*

skype  : *amilshanaka*

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Mar  5 13:33:09 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 10:33:09 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQKiuUv-s9mdUfOpPdhqmQLa4jvoFJB+_a7ALSp3u6xTZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DABE36.8070701@serve-me.info> <20160305123847876614.99bd113c@schoeppi.net>
 <CAAQRvQKiuUv-s9mdUfOpPdhqmQLa4jvoFJB+_a7ALSp3u6xTZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56DB2665.1090109@msapiro.net>

On 03/05/2016 04:03 AM, Aditya Divekar wrote:
> 
> I was mostly basing this idea on the lines that it is easy to put in a spam
> subscription request to the mailing lists now.
> Implementing captcha could nip most of these attempts in the bud itself,
> and save mailman the extra efforts of sending the confirmation link to the
> subscriber.


Subscription confirmation has nothing to do with spam subscription
attempts. It is to prevent me (a human) from subscribing other people's
addresses to lists. Captchas and similar hoops to jump through do not
stop my doing that and do not obviate the need for confirmation.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com  Sat Mar  5 15:50:55 2016
From: raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com (Abhilash Raj)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 12:50:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Developters] GSoC support
In-Reply-To: <CAJN8wG2BBxM+V6esAPdnGHE1rnG4JtvJoGWiX3F6sXiVryXkiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJN8wG2BBxM+V6esAPdnGHE1rnG4JtvJoGWiX3F6sXiVryXkiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56DB46AF.8090604@gmail.com>

Hi Amil,

On 03/05/2016 03:22 AM, amil shanaka wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm a 3rd year under graduate in the department of Computer Science and
> Engineering at University of Moratuwa, Sri Lanka
> 
> I tried to connect with mailing list in Mainman but it doesn't work.
> 
> I did my Internship In WSO2 Message Broker Team. so i learned  about
> MQTT(with netty) and AMQP protocols about how message broker work with
> sub/pub with topic,durable topics and also i did a research about off-heap
> implementation for mb.
> 
> So I want to know more details regarding* Message queue based email
> archiver *Project which i can proceed through.

Right now, Mailman sends each email it receives to the (enabled)
Archivers through a POST request. We want to have a pub/sub kind of
model for the emails as well as some of the events that other archivers
or apps built on top of mailman can consume. Events like ListCreated,
ListRemoved or something like that.

The above is just a very basic idea of what we want. You need to focus
your application around how we can do this. Florian and Aurelien would
be able to help you better if you come up with some ideas. You might
want to go through the current codebase for Mailman, looking for the
parts of code that are concerned with Archivers. A general idea about
the complete architecture would also be a good idea.

There are several design documentation about the architecture of Mailman
3 core. You can find article in the mailman3 docs, there is a chapter in
Architecture of Open Source Applications book v2 and also there is a
talk that Barry gave in PyCon 2012.

Just as a reminder, you need to submit atleast one merge request fixing
any of the issues mentioned in the bug tracker of any mailman projects.

Let us know if you have more questions.


> 
> Please Refer My LinkedIn: (amil shanaka
> <https://lk.linkedin.com/in/amilshanaka>) for more detail about me and the
> projects I've done so far.
> 
> Hope you will help me with this.
> 
> Thanks,
> 

-- 
thanks,
Abhilash Raj

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Mar  5 19:14:12 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 16:14:12 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3 on lists.mailman3.org
Message-ID: <56DB7654.8060802@msapiro.net>

I'm starting to look at getting a production mailman-users at mailman3.org
list set up and running.

I haven't gotten too far into it, but I see one issue and have a question.

The issue is that there is an MX record for mailman3.org pointing to
mail.mailman3.org, but mail.mailman3.org doesn't have an A record; it
has a CNAME pointing to mailman.iad1.psf.io which is the canonical name
of the server.

RFC 2181, sec 10.3 says the target of and MX must have address records,
not CNAME. I.e. mail.mailman3.org should not have a CNAME, but rather an
A record pointing to 104.239.228.201 or I suppose instead, the MX for
mailman3.org could point directly at mailman.iad1.psf.io.

Anyway, this is not an immediate concern, but will need to be addressed.

For my question, there is a MM 3 installation on the server now done, I
think, by Abhilash (@maxking). It seems only partly done. I.e. there's a
whole bunch of stuff in /opt/mailman that looks fairly complete, there's
some stuff for it in the nginx and postfix configs, there are systemd
scripts for starting and stopping mailman, but there's no mailman user
or group on the server. This latter may be the result of the PSFs salt
management.

Anyway, the question is is this usable? should it be upgraded? what else
needs to be done (not in detail, just whatever pieces are known to be
missing)?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com  Sat Mar  5 20:18:49 2016
From: raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com (Abhilash Raj)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 17:18:49 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3 on lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <56DB7654.8060802@msapiro.net>
References: <56DB7654.8060802@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56DB8579.7070505@gmail.com>

Hi Mark,

On 03/05/2016 04:14 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> I'm starting to look at getting a production mailman-users at mailman3.org
> list set up and running.
> 
> I haven't gotten too far into it, but I see one issue and have a question.
> 
> The issue is that there is an MX record for mailman3.org pointing to
> mail.mailman3.org, but mail.mailman3.org doesn't have an A record; it
> has a CNAME pointing to mailman.iad1.psf.io which is the canonical name
> of the server.
> 
> RFC 2181, sec 10.3 says the target of and MX must have address records,
> not CNAME. I.e. mail.mailman3.org should not have a CNAME, but rather an
> A record pointing to 104.239.228.201 or I suppose instead, the MX for
> mailman3.org could point directly at mailman.iad1.psf.io.
> 
> Anyway, this is not an immediate concern, but will need to be addressed.
> 
> For my question, there is a MM 3 installation on the server now done, I
> think, by Abhilash (@maxking). It seems only partly done. I.e. there's a
> whole bunch of stuff in /opt/mailman that looks fairly complete, there's
> some stuff for it in the nginx and postfix configs, there are systemd
> scripts for starting and stopping mailman, but there's no mailman user
> or group on the server. This latter may be the result of the PSFs salt
> management.

Yes, I did setup a Mailman 3 instance on that server, but haven't
actually looked at it recently. I was just playing around and probably
did not create the Mailman user or Group, but I should have. I hooked
everything up though and it was working. There must be configuration
files for gunicorn too, to deploy Postorius and Hyperkitty.

> Anyway, the question is is this usable? should it be upgraded? what else
> needs to be done (not in detail, just whatever pieces are known to be
> missing)?

I guess it should be upgraded to the latest mailman version. I installed
everything from the latest master branch (that time) instead from the
released version. Although, a fresh install using bundler won't hurt. We
can then upgrade our own servers before rolling out the releases ;-)


> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/raj.abhilash1%40gmail.com
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> 

-- 
thanks,
Abhilash Raj

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Mar  5 21:16:14 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 11:16:14 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers]  CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22235.37614.682222.274498@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Aditya Divekar writes:

 > But with the new recaptcha, I would like to know if the stand is
 > the same.

ReCAPTCHA looks very good, though I haven't used it.  However, the
professional spammers are quite capable of hiring humans to do their
work, and even conceal it as being charitable work (digitizing old
books, for example).  On the other hand, unsophisticated spammers are
easily turned away with simple textchas (eg, the Python sites use
questions like "What is van Rossum's first name?" -- no, I didn't try
"Just" :-).

I conclude that spam is a disease and evolves resistance to antispam
technology at rates that resemble the ability of bacteria to evolve
resistance to antibiotics, and we just have to keep a careful watch on
every mail service we administer to see what the spammers are up to in
our neighborhoods.

Steve


From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Mar  5 21:20:31 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 11:20:31 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <20160305123847876614.99bd113c@schoeppi.net>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DABE36.8070701@serve-me.info>
 <20160305123847876614.99bd113c@schoeppi.net>
Message-ID: <22235.37871.346177.440408@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Christian Schoepplein writes:
 > On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 12:08:38 > About captchas. If they are implemented, they would have to be 
 > > optional in my opinion as they would
 > > require signing up for a token with the captcha provider. 
 > 
 > Yes, if captchas really have to be implemented, please, please make
 > them optional! For example many blind people are using mailman and
 > captchas are a nightmare for them and from the point of view
 > regarding accessibility in general.

Be reassured: we understand (but easily forget, so feel free to remind
us!)

What is the opinion of audio captchas?  That is, do they actually
work, and are they a significant inconvenience even if they are at
least in theory possible to use for blind persons?  Google ReCAPTCHA
implements an audio recaptcha option, for example.

 > Mailman 2.x is very accessible so far

Thank you!

 > and unfortunatly I hadn't time to take a look if postorius is also
 > good to use, but keeping mailman useable also for users with
 > disabilities should be always kept in mind IMHO!

This is a continuing goal of mine, for sure, and I think of all
Mailman developers.  But AFAIK we're all equipped with average-ish
levels of the usual senses, so feel free to remind us of the
principle, and if you notice any specific issues for accessibility,
*please* report them.  We probably won't notice them ourselves. :-(

@self (or anybody who wants to check and implement :-): We should have
an accessibility tag (and probably a usability or ux tag to
differentiate the use cases) on the tracker.

 > If spam protection mechanisms are needed,

No "if" about it, unfortunately.  But we do try to avoid mechanisms
that impose more pain on real users than on spammers.

Steve

From rsk at gsp.org  Sat Mar  5 21:37:36 2016
From: rsk at gsp.org (Rich Kulawiec)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 21:37:36 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160306023736.GA11439@gsp.org>

On Sat, Mar 05, 2016 at 04:27:31PM +0530, Aditya Divekar wrote:
> I was looking around the mailman code, and could not find the functionality
> for captcha in the mailing lists subscription pages.

As someone who has been studying email abuse for 30+ years, I strongly
recommend against captchas for several reasons.

First, as noted elsewhere in this thread, they're problematic for impaired
or disabled users.

Second, they've been quite thoroughly defeated by advances in image
processing and character recognition.  We have long since passed the
point where the difficulty of captchas solvable by software has
exceeded the difficulty of captchas solvable by humans.

Third, as often noted elsewhere, it is relatively easy to conscript
humans (knowingly or unknowingly) into the mass solving of captchas.

Fourth, either a given instance is or is not a target of interest
to adversaries. If it is not, the captchas are of course not needed.
If it is, then they will not help: any modestly-clueful adversary
will go through them like they're not even there.

Bottom line: captchas are, at best, wishful thinking.  There is zero
operational reason to deploy them in 2016.

---rsk

From dandrews at visi.com  Sun Mar  6 00:02:43 2016
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2016 23:02:43 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <22235.37871.346177.440408@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DABE36.8070701@serve-me.info>
 <20160305123847876614.99bd113c@schoeppi.net>
 <22235.37871.346177.440408@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <auto-000052233828@mailfront1.g2host.com>

At 08:20 PM 3/5/2016, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>Christian Schoepplein writes:
>  > On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 12:08:38 > About captchas. If they are 
> implemented, they would have to be
>  > > optional in my opinion as they would
>  > > require signing up for a token with the captcha provider.
>  >
>  > Yes, if captchas really have to be implemented, please, please make
>  > them optional! For example many blind people are using mailman and
>  > captchas are a nightmare for them and from the point of view
>  > regarding accessibility in general.
>
>Be reassured: we understand (but easily forget, so feel free to remind
>us!)
>
>What is the opinion of audio captchas?  That is, do they actually
>work, and are they a significant inconvenience even if they are at
>least in theory possible to use for blind persons?  Google ReCAPTCHA
>implements an audio recaptcha option, for example.

Some audio CAPTCHA's are ok, some are virtually impossible to 
decipher. Also, audio CAPTCHAs do not work at all for deaf-blind persons.

So, while it depends, audio CAPTCHA is a mixed experience at best, 
and impossible at worst.

Dave




         David Andrews and long white cane Harry.
E-Mail:  dandrews at visi.com or david.andrews at nfbnet.org


From dandrews at visi.com  Sat Mar  5 23:57:23 2016
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2016 22:57:23 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000052233726@mailfront1.g2host.com>

At 04:57 AM 3/5/2016, Aditya Divekar wrote:
>Hi!
>I was looking around the mailman code, and could not find the functionality
>for captcha in the mailing lists subscription pages.
>I think it could be a good feature to implement in the upcoming versions,
>and would like to know if its a good idea?
>I also came across the thread -
>http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.mail.mailman.user/74167
>and read about the previous discussion on it by some members.
>Since captcha back then was easier to break, it might not have been a
>profitable feature, according to the thread.
>But with the new recaptcha, I would like to know if the stand is the same.

There are a number of blind Mailman Admins out here, including 
myself, and many thousands of b lind or visually impaired users, for 
whom CAPTCHA can be a problem. We hate pictures of words and numbers, 
and are in favor of no CAPTCHA!

Dave




         David Andrews and long white cane Harry.
E-Mail:  dandrews at visi.com or david.andrews at nfbnet.org


From raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com  Sun Mar  6 03:29:05 2016
From: raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com (Abhilash Raj)
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 00:29:05 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Developters] GSoC support
In-Reply-To: <CAJN8wG0PwUYP2OpRnOnOhF+vT5h6DWmi-gmZzrQw05AF3Vjong@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJN8wG2BBxM+V6esAPdnGHE1rnG4JtvJoGWiX3F6sXiVryXkiw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DB46AF.8090604@gmail.com>
 <CAJN8wG0PwUYP2OpRnOnOhF+vT5h6DWmi-gmZzrQw05AF3Vjong@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56DBEA51.20707@gmail.com>

Hi,

Please try to always include -developers list in all discussions related
to GSoC, unless it is something very personal that you want to ask or
discuss with the mentors.

Second, try to use formal English for all communications on this channel
(First letter capital). It is important that you learn that very first
before we go down working on the problems related to programming.

On 03/06/2016 12:19 AM, amil shanaka wrote:
> Hi,
> thank you for your reply. other than that can we use any open source
> packages like netty and what prototype do we need to implement regarding
> pub/sub .. MQTT or AMQP ? 

The idea is to make a common interface that can use any messaging
back-end that does the Job. I guess MQTT is meant for high latency and
unreliable network, not much of our use case, so AMQP should be more
relevant. However, I am not very aware about the current trends in the
message passing and pub/sub models out there right now.

It would be your job to choose the framework that you think is best for
the purpose, after you have clearly define the *purpose*. And the
explain why you chose it over other alternatives.

> Thank you,
> amil
> 
> On 6 March 2016 at 02:20, Abhilash Raj <raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com
> <mailto:raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi Amil,
> 
>     On 03/05/2016 03:22 AM, amil shanaka wrote:
>     > Hi,
>     > I'm a 3rd year under graduate in the department of Computer Science and
>     > Engineering at University of Moratuwa, Sri Lanka
>     >
>     > I tried to connect with mailing list in Mainman but it doesn't work.
>     >
>     > I did my Internship In WSO2 Message Broker Team. so i learned  about
>     > MQTT(with netty) and AMQP protocols about how message broker work with
>     > sub/pub with topic,durable topics and also i did a research about off-heap
>     > implementation for mb.
>     >
>     > So I want to know more details regarding* Message queue based email
>     > archiver *Project which i can proceed through.
> 
>     Right now, Mailman sends each email it receives to the (enabled)
>     Archivers through a POST request. We want to have a pub/sub kind of
>     model for the emails as well as some of the events that other archivers
>     or apps built on top of mailman can consume. Events like ListCreated,
>     ListRemoved or something like that.
> 
>     The above is just a very basic idea of what we want. You need to focus
>     your application around how we can do this. Florian and Aurelien would
>     be able to help you better if you come up with some ideas. You might
>     want to go through the current codebase for Mailman, looking for the
>     parts of code that are concerned with Archivers. A general idea about
>     the complete architecture would also be a good idea.
> 
>     There are several design documentation about the architecture of Mailman
>     3 core. You can find article in the mailman3 docs, there is a chapter in
>     Architecture of Open Source Applications book v2 and also there is a
>     talk that Barry gave in PyCon 2012.
> 
>     Just as a reminder, you need to submit atleast one merge request fixing
>     any of the issues mentioned in the bug tracker of any mailman projects.
> 
>     Let us know if you have more questions.
> 
> 
>     >
>     > Please Refer My LinkedIn: (amil shanaka
>     > <https://lk.linkedin.com/in/amilshanaka>) for more detail about me
>     and the
>     > projects I've done so far.
>     >
>     > Hope you will help me with this.
>     >
>     > Thanks,
>     >
> 
>     --
>     thanks,
>     Abhilash Raj
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> *Amil shanaka*
> 
> *Integrated Computer Engineering | University Of Moratuwa*
> 
> mobile : (+94)* **718548973 *|  email : *catchamil at gmail.com*
> <mailto:catchamil at gmail.com> | *amil.12 at cse.mrt.ac.lk
> <mailto:amil.12 at cse.mrt.ac.lk>*
> 
> skype  : *amilshanaka*
> 

-- 
thanks,
Abhilash Raj

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Mar  6 07:51:16 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 21:51:16 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers]  Basic workflow of the ARC implementation
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQLDcHfLiR3r5Z6T21OAhHXE+sWFU7MZ+vipn06j9O96vw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQLDcHfLiR3r5Z6T21OAhHXE+sWFU7MZ+vipn06j9O96vw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22236.10180.832824.471865@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Aditya Divekar writes:

 > We need to generate a private and a public key for the signing purposes.
 > For testing purposes, and while working on the code, I can probably
 > generate the keys locally using the openssl tool.

In production, these keys are a *site* resource.  I see no reason why
we need to generate keys automatically in this case, and in fact many
sites will use their DKIM keys AIUI.

 > As a rough sketch of implementation,
 > 
 > 1. ARC Seal
 > 
 > The tags -
 > 
 > NOTE - Now, here we needed to check the given message for any
 > pre-existing signatures in most of the fields. For this I think a
 > separate module can be created which can extract the previous ARC
 > headers if they exist from the message.  The code for this can be
 > again used from the dkimpy package.

This should be trivial to do with the Python email package, too.  I
don't really see that a separate module would be useful, since we'll
want to extract a fixed set of headers (ARC- and DKIM-specified).  Of
course it should be factored into a separate function (or perhaps a
generic "extract_fields" function and a couple of derivatives with the
DKIM list (just DKIM-Signature?) and the ARC list (ARC-Seal,
ARC-Authentication-Results, and ARC-Message-Signature).

GSoC meta: You don't need to go as far as deciding the factoring of
this function in your proposal, but on the other hand it wouldn't
hurt.  It's low importance (see below for high-priority tasks).

Another factoring issue: should you "import dkimpy" and call
dkimpy.foo, or should you "from dkimpy import foo, bar, baz"?
(Doesn't need to be settled for a while, and you can even try both at
a small cost in time and effort.)

 > i: The value for this tag can be determined by performing a check
 > on the original signature and seeing if there were previous ARC
 > headers. If yes, we increment the value of the previous "i" by 1,
 > and if no, make it 1.

Note that the I-D (Internet-Draft) provides a specific algorithm for
canonicalizing i in the presence of missing i or duplicate i.

 > a: The value for this is fixed.
 > 
 > t,s,d: These can be obtained by using pre-existing dkimpy package.
 > 
 > b: Now we can compute the header hash using the dkimpy package
 > again by using the headers given here
 > <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-andersen-arc-02#section-5.1.1.3>.
 > Here, we call the dkimpy package and get the signature for the above
 > headers and then affix it to the "b="header.
 > 
 > cv: Use the same check as "i", if there is already an ARC i.e. i>1, then we
 > make it as "V", else "N".

OK.

 > The ARC Seal gets computed here.
 > 
 > NOTE-For giving the "s" and "d" (selector and domain tag values),
 > we will need to produce records for these where the key can be
 > stored so that it is available for query by the verifiers (I still
 > have to look up this mechanism).

OK.

GSoC meta: you can get away without actually specifying the mechanism
in your proposal, but you should be able to say where you will look it
up when the time comes.  (ARC Seal will not necessarily be your first
milestone, and you can book up on standards "just in time".)  Knowing
where to look is medium priority IMO.  (IMO means "other mentors may
feel differently, pay more attention to comments they make than the
ones I make"!)

 > 2. ARC Message Signature
 > 
 > The tags -
 > 
 > i: The value for this tag is determined similar to the "i" tag for
 > the ARC Seal.

Isn't this inaccurate?  This "i" must *match* the Seal "i", no?

 > a,t,s,d: These can again be obtained from the dkimpy package.
 > 
 > bh: The body hash. This can be obtained from the package. Here, we set the
 > canonicalization to 'relaxed' and get the body hash.

"The package" == dkimpy, right?

 > h: The "h=" header list is signed with the implicit list (as given
 > in the draft) and any explicit list that we want in addition.

 > Now, for mailing lists, the recommended headers are -
 > List-Id:List-Unsubscribe:List-Archive:List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe:Reply-To:
 > and any other fields added by the list like the Precedence, XTopics or
 > else.
 > We will also sign the DKIM signature of the previous mail here if
 > available(suggested by the draft).
 > For this signing, we can use a modified version where the
 > FROZEN_HEADERS (headers that are signed by default) will specify
 > the implicit headers according to ARC specs (Another option could
 > be to get all the implicit+explicit headers signed by the package,
 > extract the h header, and modify it to include only the explicit
 > headers.)

 > b: The signature, calculated from the package. The h tag is used as
 > described above.
 > 
 > 
 > 3. ARC Authentication Results.
 > The "i" tag simply takes on the value same as the above "i" tags.
 > Now from our previous conversation, as you suggested, the
 > authenticity of the previous MTA who sent us the mail is not sure
 > to be trusted. So in the case where we don't trust the previous
 > MTA, we will have to perform our own DMARC, SPF, DKIM testing of
 > the recieved mail. If previous ARC chain exists i.e. cv=V, then we
 > perform the ARC test too.

I'm not sure you understood me.  We *always* verify the preceding
MTA's claims, even if we trust them, because of spoofing and
man-in-the-middle attacks on the Internet itself.  (More precisely,
verification is required by the I-D, and the rationale is spoofing and
MITM.)  The MTA we "may or may not trust" is our *own* MTA.

 > Now for performing the tests -

 > In one of the earlier mails, we discussed the use of the "authres"
 > package for generating the authentication results header. The
 > package conforms to the RFC7001 format, and now the format used is
 > RFC7601. But according to the changes that I verified, we can use
 > the package without any changes.  (The changes were mostly related
 > to extra specifications that are optional.
 > Can be skipped for our purposes)
 > So the "authres" package can be called here for generating the AAR.

Great!

 > If we need to perform the ARC test, then the module for that will
 > have to be implemented manually. Though most of the code from the
 > package for DKIM verification can be used.

Yes.

 > This is also the point where we detect if the mail is spam or not.

No.  ARC modifies the message, and therefore is a Handler, which does
not make decisions about disposition.  We provide our authentication
results to later Rules, probably by adding a field (or several) to
msg_data.  (This is a Mailman design policy, for detailed rationale
ask Barry.  The basic point is that passing ARC or even DMARC
certainly does not mean the message is not spam, and vice versa, even
if failure is a strong indication.)

 > If the arc test fails, then there is something fishy here. DKIM,
 > DMARC, SPF may fail, but the failure of this test means the mail is
 > not authentic. At this point the mail should probably be discarded
 > (or any other measures that need to be taken).

No.  The mail cannot be proved authentic by ARC, but that may be due
to changes to the message at intervening hops.  There may be more
sophisticated tests (eg, a PGP signature on a MIME body) that can
prove it authentic.

 > Now coming to the testing part. There can be a number of tests like
 > verifying the generated ARC signature, changing the body of the
 > message, failing when the implicitly signed AMS headers are changed
 > and other such tests.

This is a little vague, but testing is hard.  You'll learn it as you
go along.

 > Is this the workflow you were expecting to see, or should I write a
 > more explanatory draft ?

What you have written so far is basically OK as far as the *work*flow
part goes.  However, you also need a *schedule* with *milestones*.

The *schedule* should present the Google deadlines, any times that you
will be out of communication (eg, because of travel), and any periods
of more than two days that you expect to be unable to work.  Google
expect you to treat the internship as a fulltime job, so "working
time" is like 40 hours a week.  But you should not expect to be able
to make up two days or more that you would normally be working by
working times that you normally don't.  A few people can do that, most
can't.  Therefore, schedule as if you can't until you've proven you
can.  Also, many people can successfully work 4 days x 10 hours, but
more than 10 hours/day and you're pushing human limits.  So you should
be thinking in terms of a 5 day work week, or maybe 4 if you have
really good reason or previous experience.

Finally, your schedule should include your milestones.  A *milestone*
is more than just a subgoal for your project.  It needs to be
objectively verifiable.  "ARC Seal code completed" is not a milestone.
"ARC Seal code completed, unit tests pass, merge request posted to
GitLab" is a milestone.  A better one would say "unit tests *pass with
100% branch coverage*."  Note that all of these are things you check
yourself and don't depend on others.  You can include things like
"review passed" and "code merged", but these depend on others so you
should leave lots of room for delay.  "Code completed" is not a
milestone because it doesn't specify the quality of the code.

I count about 9 well-defined tasks in your message that could be made
into good milestones.  You should try to come up with your own list,
but if you're really not happy with your list, send it to me and ask
for help and I'll give you my ideas.

In an ideal world with experienced GSoC students, we would like to see
approximately one milestone per week in your schedule.  More than
that and it becomes a theoretical exercise because you always end up
finding out that the right order to do the subtasks is different from
the one you scheduled.  Schedules are only useful if there's a
reasonable expectation you'll keep to them.  On the other hand you
should have more than two, because there should be one milestone
describing what you'll be reviewed on for the midterm, and another for
the final.  The point of having a schedule is so you'll know how good
your plan was and whether you'll be able to keep your promises.

Keep in mind that if you get in schedule trouble, you have four
options: (1) work harder, (2) get help, (3) renegotiate your
commitments for midterm and final, and (4) get lucky.  Don't depend on
#4 -- that's how students fail.  The amount of help you can get and
renegotiation you can do are limited, of course, but when #1 looks
likely to fail, #2 and #3 may be available.

 > (Also wherever I have mentioned the use of dkimpy, a lot of custom
 > implementation is needed to suit our requirements. )

You should say that when you first mention dkimpy.  In general this is
expected, though, so not terribly important.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Mar  6 07:51:58 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 21:51:58 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <auto-000052233828@mailfront1.g2host.com>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DABE36.8070701@serve-me.info>
 <20160305123847876614.99bd113c@schoeppi.net>
 <22235.37871.346177.440408@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <auto-000052233828@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <22236.10222.78088.993044@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

David Andrews writes:

 > Some audio CAPTCHA's are ok, some are virtually impossible to 
 > decipher. Also, audio CAPTCHAs do not work at all for deaf-blind
 > persons.

Thanks for going on record!

 > So, while it depends, audio CAPTCHA is a mixed experience at best, 
 > and impossible at worst.

I kinda expected that.

Steve

From barry at list.org  Sun Mar  6 12:37:45 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:37:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3 on lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <56DB7654.8060802@msapiro.net>
References: <56DB7654.8060802@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20160306123745.5013bb23@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 05, 2016, at 04:14 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>The issue is that there is an MX record for mailman3.org pointing to
>mail.mailman3.org, but mail.mailman3.org doesn't have an A record; it
>has a CNAME pointing to mailman.iad1.psf.io which is the canonical name
>of the server.
>
>RFC 2181, sec 10.3 says the target of and MX must have address records,
>not CNAME. I.e. mail.mailman3.org should not have a CNAME, but rather an
>A record pointing to 104.239.228.201 or I suppose instead, the MX for
>mailman3.org could point directly at mailman.iad1.psf.io.

Fixed by setting mail. to an A record.  Give it time to propagate, and it has
a 3h TTL.

Cheers,
-Barry
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From barry at list.org  Sun Mar  6 12:49:17 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:49:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Developters] GSoC support
In-Reply-To: <56DB46AF.8090604@gmail.com>
References: <CAJN8wG2BBxM+V6esAPdnGHE1rnG4JtvJoGWiX3F6sXiVryXkiw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DB46AF.8090604@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160306124917.798f0870@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 05, 2016, at 12:50 PM, Abhilash Raj wrote:

>Hi Amil,
>
>On 03/05/2016 03:22 AM, amil shanaka wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I'm a 3rd year under graduate in the department of Computer Science and
>> Engineering at University of Moratuwa, Sri Lanka
>> 
>> I tried to connect with mailing list in Mainman but it doesn't work.
>> 
>> I did my Internship In WSO2 Message Broker Team. so i learned  about
>> MQTT(with netty) and AMQP protocols about how message broker work with
>> sub/pub with topic,durable topics and also i did a research about off-heap
>> implementation for mb.
>> 
>> So I want to know more details regarding* Message queue based email
>> archiver *Project which i can proceed through.  
>
>Right now, Mailman sends each email it receives to the (enabled)
>Archivers through a POST request. We want to have a pub/sub kind of
>model for the emails as well as some of the events that other archivers
>or apps built on top of mailman can consume. Events like ListCreated,
>ListRemoved or something like that.
>
>The above is just a very basic idea of what we want. You need to focus
>your application around how we can do this. Florian and Aurelien would
>be able to help you better if you come up with some ideas. You might
>want to go through the current codebase for Mailman, looking for the
>parts of code that are concerned with Archivers. A general idea about
>the complete architecture would also be a good idea.
>
>There are several design documentation about the architecture of Mailman
>3 core. You can find article in the mailman3 docs, there is a chapter in
>Architecture of Open Source Applications book v2 and also there is a
>talk that Barry gave in PyCon 2012.
>
>Just as a reminder, you need to submit atleast one merge request fixing
>any of the issues mentioned in the bug tracker of any mailman projects.
>
>Let us know if you have more questions.
>
>
>> 
>> Please Refer My LinkedIn: (amil shanaka
>> <https://lk.linkedin.com/in/amilshanaka>) for more detail about me and the
>> projects I've done so far.
>> 
>> Hope you will help me with this.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>>   
>

From deansuhr at deansuhr.us  Sun Mar  6 12:58:01 2016
From: deansuhr at deansuhr.us (Dean Suhr)
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 09:58:01 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <22236.10222.78088.993044@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DABE36.8070701@serve-me.info> <20160305123847876614.99bd113c@schoeppi.net>
 <22235.37871.346177.440408@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <auto-000052233828@mailfront1.g2host.com>
 <22236.10222.78088.993044@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <380D1170-C3AF-484E-8E8B-5D4F242D3FFF@deansuhr.us>

As the parent and caregiver for a disabled child (age 35) and a nationally known advocate for the 1 in 10 worldwide with one of 7,000 rare diseases, I have great respect for those with disabilities ? and for those aging, like me, who are increasingly visually and audibly challenged.

With that said, each list serves a different audience and has a different mix of challenges with their potential subscribers.  For this reason I would suggest that CAPTCHA be an optional feature that the list admin configures (perhaps with a paragraph of helpful perspective that explains the challenges of CAPTCHAs which can be gleaned from the other comments in this thread).

While CAPTCHA is not a 100% perfect solution, I can imagine situations where a 25 or 50% solution is still incrementally but notably helpful.  

Let?s leave that decision up to the list administrator on a list by list basis. 

Dean

> On Mar 6, 2016, at 4:51 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
> 
> David Andrews writes:
> 
>> Some audio CAPTCHA's are ok, some are virtually impossible to 
>> decipher. Also, audio CAPTCHAs do not work at all for deaf-blind
>> persons.
> 
> Thanks for going on record!
> 
>> So, while it depends, audio CAPTCHA is a mixed experience at best, 
>> and impossible at worst.
> 
> I kinda expected that.
> 
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/deansuhr%40deansuhr.us
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9


From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Mar  6 13:40:47 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 10:40:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3 on lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <20160306123745.5013bb23@subdivisions.wooz.org>
References: <56DB7654.8060802@msapiro.net>
 <20160306123745.5013bb23@subdivisions.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <56DC79AF.1030602@msapiro.net>

On 03/06/2016 09:37 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Mar 05, 2016, at 04:14 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
>> The issue is that there is an MX record for mailman3.org pointing to
>> mail.mailman3.org, but mail.mailman3.org doesn't have an A record; it
>> has a CNAME pointing to mailman.iad1.psf.io which is the canonical name
>> of the server.
...
> Fixed by setting mail. to an A record.  Give it time to propagate, and it has
> a 3h TTL.


Looks good. Thanks Barry.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From shubham.ghiya.sg at gmail.com  Sun Mar  6 17:32:08 2016
From: shubham.ghiya.sg at gmail.com (Shubham Ghiya)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 04:02:08 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting Introduced with the Community and
 Looking forward to Contribute
Message-ID: <CAGwphD8S+rsNhNVVPZmCBu2T4vSnz5tGDpr4u4eUSwDpAf++8g@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

I am Shubham Ghiya (irc: shubham__). A student developer in 3 year pursuing
B.Tech-CSE from International Institute of Information Technology-Hyderabad
(IIIT-H), India.

My skills include programming languages: Python, Java, GNU C/C++, Html,
Css, Javascript and other languages. I have gone through the mailman3
documentation and got the build working on my local machine. Can someone
please guide me as to how I should start contributing to the community?

It would be highly appreciable if someone can help me move forward to
contribute to software starting off with some easy tasks and then moving
levels higher.

Thanks
Shubham Ghiya
+91 8106426125

From raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com  Sun Mar  6 17:46:38 2016
From: raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com (Abhilash Raj)
Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2016 14:46:38 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting Introduced with the Community and
 Looking forward to Contribute
In-Reply-To: <CAGwphD8S+rsNhNVVPZmCBu2T4vSnz5tGDpr4u4eUSwDpAf++8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGwphD8S+rsNhNVVPZmCBu2T4vSnz5tGDpr4u4eUSwDpAf++8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <878u1vz0kx.fsf@gmail.com>

Hi Shubham,


Shubham Ghiya writes:

> Hello all,
>
> I am Shubham Ghiya (irc: shubham__). A student developer in 3 year pursuing
> B.Tech-CSE from International Institute of Information Technology-Hyderabad
> (IIIT-H), India.
>
> My skills include programming languages: Python, Java, GNU C/C++, Html,
> Css, Javascript and other languages. I have gone through the mailman3
> documentation and got the build working on my local machine. Can someone
> please guide me as to how I should start contributing to the community?

Welcome to the community. You can start off by looking at the issues in
Gitlab and see if anything interests you. After that try solving that
and you can ask for help here or on IRC.

> It would be highly appreciable if someone can help me move forward to
> contribute to software starting off with some easy tasks and then moving
> levels higher.

-- 
thanks,
Abhilash Raj
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From barry at list.org  Sun Mar  6 18:58:09 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 18:58:09 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <56DB2665.1090109@msapiro.net>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DABE36.8070701@serve-me.info>
 <20160305123847876614.99bd113c@schoeppi.net>
 <CAAQRvQKiuUv-s9mdUfOpPdhqmQLa4jvoFJB+_a7ALSp3u6xTZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DB2665.1090109@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20160306185809.3d6331d0@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 05, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Subscription confirmation has nothing to do with spam subscription
>attempts. It is to prevent me (a human) from subscribing other people's
>addresses to lists. Captchas and similar hoops to jump through do not
>stop my doing that and do not obviate the need for confirmation.

I'll be honest, I really hate captchas.

Cheers,
-Barry

From barry at list.org  Sun Mar  6 19:07:31 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 19:07:31 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <22235.37871.346177.440408@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DABE36.8070701@serve-me.info>
 <20160305123847876614.99bd113c@schoeppi.net>
 <22235.37871.346177.440408@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20160306190731.478738c1@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 06, 2016, at 11:20 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

>This is a continuing goal of mine, for sure, and I think of all
>Mailman developers.  But AFAIK we're all equipped with average-ish
>levels of the usual senses, so feel free to remind us of the
>principle, and if you notice any specific issues for accessibility,
>*please* report them.  We probably won't notice them ourselves. :-(
>
>@self (or anybody who wants to check and implement :-): We should have
>an accessibility tag (and probably a usability or ux tag to
>differentiate the use cases) on the tracker.

Great idea.  The core already had a 'ui' tag but I renamed that 'usability'.
I also added an 'accessibility' tag, and I tried to add some reasonable
descriptions to these two tags (as well as color code them similarly).  The
core doesn't have a lot of these issues, and I'll leave it to others to add
the appropriate similar tags to Postorius and HyperKitty.

https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/labels

Suggestions for improvements welcome!

Cheers,
-Barry

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Mar  6 20:31:27 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 10:31:27 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <20160306190731.478738c1@subdivisions.wooz.org>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DABE36.8070701@serve-me.info>
 <20160305123847876614.99bd113c@schoeppi.net>
 <22235.37871.346177.440408@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160306190731.478738c1@subdivisions.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <22236.55791.474960.334229@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Barry Warsaw writes:

 > Great idea.  The core already had a 'ui' tag but I renamed that 'usability'.
 > I also added an 'accessibility' tag,

Ah, you're right -- spelling usability as "ui" or "ux" would be an
"ax" barrier to everybody but us chickens, er, core devs.

+1 for usability and accessibility.

 > and I tried to add some reasonable descriptions to these two tags

LGTM.

BTW, should the "handlers" tag mention "rules" and "chains"?  I don't
really see why they would be a different category from the point of
view of developers, but users reporting issues might see a distinction
and be confused by the "missing" "rules" tag.

Generic issue for label descriptions filed: mailman/issues/#200.

 > (as well as color code them similarly).

It's a shame that page doesn't group by colors, maybe?  You know, a
sort of poor man's thesaurus to help the user pick the best of similar
tags.  I'll think about it and file a RFE with gitlab if it seems to
make sense.

Steve

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Mar  6 20:33:27 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 10:33:27 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <20160306185809.3d6331d0@subdivisions.wooz.org>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DABE36.8070701@serve-me.info>
 <20160305123847876614.99bd113c@schoeppi.net>
 <CAAQRvQKiuUv-s9mdUfOpPdhqmQLa4jvoFJB+_a7ALSp3u6xTZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DB2665.1090109@msapiro.net>
 <20160306185809.3d6331d0@subdivisions.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <22236.55911.454195.466337@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Barry Warsaw writes:

 > I'll be honest, I really hate captchas.

I do too, and will not work on adding them.  But they're a frequent
RFE (or were at one time), and with Google oomph behind reCAPTCHA, I
wouldn't be surprised if they rise in popularity again.  And they
don't violate any RFCs.

If Abhilash wants to work on them, let him!  As long as it's a boolean
option using an external service like reCAPTCHA (if you think
set(Google) <= set(NSA) you need not use it), the bug maintenance
burden should be low, we can always refuse future RFEs, and if it
keeps some people from trying to filter spam or spammer subscriptions
in Mailman it might even be a net configuration support win.

IMO the only tough call would be a GSoC proposal, because that
probably would force us to refuse another proposal.  There I would
advocate taking the attitude that we should look at the quality of the
students and their likelihoods of future attachment to Mailman, and
not discriminate against this particular potential project unless the
students really are quite equivalent.

Steve


From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Mar  6 20:35:49 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 10:35:49 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3 on lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <56DC79AF.1030602@msapiro.net>
References: <56DB7654.8060802@msapiro.net>
 <20160306123745.5013bb23@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56DC79AF.1030602@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <22236.56053.226842.140622@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:
 > On 03/06/2016 09:37 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
 > > On Mar 05, 2016, at 04:14 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
 > > 
 > >> The issue is that there is an MX record for mailman3.org pointing to
 > >> mail.mailman3.org, but mail.mailman3.org doesn't have an A record; it
 > >> has a CNAME pointing to mailman.iad1.psf.io which is the canonical name
 > >> of the server.
 > ...
 > > Fixed by setting mail. to an A record.  Give it time to
 > > propagate, and it has a 3h TTL.
 > 
 > 
 > Looks good. Thanks Barry.

But note that as a practical matter some receiving sites demand (or
use to demand) that a sender's PTR roundtrip (ie, A -> PTR -> same A).

Is that not a problem any more?

Steve

From phanindra.th at students.iiit.ac.in  Sun Mar  6 20:50:50 2016
From: phanindra.th at students.iiit.ac.in (Phanindra Kumar Thatavarthi)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 07:20:50 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Regarding How to start cntribution to mailman
Message-ID: <56DCDE7A.8020002@students.iiit.ac.in>

                 Hello everyone,
                                             I am Phanindra Kumar ,A 
student studying in 2nd  year pursuing B.Tech CSE from International 
Institute of Information Technology Hyderabad (IIIT-H),India

                                             Frankly speaking my skills 
in programming :
Python(A fair coder in python),C,Web2py,Bash scripting ,Html ,Css 
,Javascript and others.I tried to install mailman build and it is 
working fine. Can anyone guide me as How would I start contributing to 
mailman community??



From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar  7 00:31:50 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 21:31:50 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3 on lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <22236.56053.226842.140622@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <56DB7654.8060802@msapiro.net>
 <20160306123745.5013bb23@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56DC79AF.1030602@msapiro.net>
 <22236.56053.226842.140622@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <56DD1246.7060209@msapiro.net>

On 03/06/2016 05:35 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> But note that as a practical matter some receiving sites demand (or
> use to demand) that a sender's PTR roundtrip (ie, A -> PTR -> same A).
> 
> Is that not a problem any more?


Thanks for bringing this up.

It is definitely still a problem and it is a problem here too, but these
are two separate issues. The issue I raised and which is now fixed is
regarding mail to xxx at mailman3.org. That's where the MX for mailman3.org
should point to a name with an A and not a CNAME record.

I neglected to even think about the full circle DNS which is for
outgoing mail. The issue here is that the server's IP address has no
rDNS PTR record at all. The authority for this is rackspace, so they
would need to install a PTR from 201.228.239.104.in-addr.arpa. (i.e.rDNS
for 104.239.228.201) to mail.mailman3.org. Probably
infrastructure at python.org can help with this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Mon Mar  7 04:13:30 2016
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 10:13:30 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <22236.55911.454195.466337@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DABE36.8070701@serve-me.info>
 <20160305123847876614.99bd113c@schoeppi.net>
 <CAAQRvQKiuUv-s9mdUfOpPdhqmQLa4jvoFJB+_a7ALSp3u6xTZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DB2665.1090109@msapiro.net>
 <20160306185809.3d6331d0@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22236.55911.454195.466337@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20160307091330.GD32203@charite.de>

* Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org>:
> Barry Warsaw writes:
> 
>  > I'll be honest, I really hate captchas.
> 
> I do too, and will not work on adding them.  But they're a frequent
> RFE (or were at one time), and with Google oomph behind reCAPTCHA, I
> wouldn't be surprised if they rise in popularity again.  And they
> don't violate any RFCs.
> 
> If Abhilash wants to work on them, let him!  As long as it's a boolean
> option using an external service like reCAPTCHA (if you think
> set(Google) <= set(NSA) you need not use it), the bug maintenance
> burden should be low, we can always refuse future RFEs, and if it
> keeps some people from trying to filter spam or spammer subscriptions
> in Mailman it might even be a net configuration support win.

Same here. If it's optional, why not?

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de              Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Mon Mar  7 05:23:29 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 15:53:29 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <20160307091330.GD32203@charite.de>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DABE36.8070701@serve-me.info>
 <20160305123847876614.99bd113c@schoeppi.net>
 <CAAQRvQKiuUv-s9mdUfOpPdhqmQLa4jvoFJB+_a7ALSp3u6xTZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DB2665.1090109@msapiro.net>
 <20160306185809.3d6331d0@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22236.55911.454195.466337@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160307091330.GD32203@charite.de>
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQJCyvR6G_MQ88t8cCQRsrJiHe54YFeBgH=2Tia0mvNpcA@mail.gmail.com>

I was thinking of this as a side project to work on, not related to gsoc.
And I would be interested in working on this in case it's started as a
project :)

From f at florianfuchs.com  Mon Mar  7 05:35:00 2016
From: f at florianfuchs.com (Florian Fuchs)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 11:35:00 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160307103459.GA9259@mud.redhat.com>

On Sat, Mar 05, 2016 at 16:27:31PM +0530, Aditya Divekar wrote:
>Hi!
>I was looking around the mailman code, and could not find the functionality
>for captcha in the mailing lists subscription pages.
>I think it could be a good feature to implement in the upcoming versions,
>and would like to know if its a good idea?
>I also came across the thread -
>http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.mail.mailman.user/74167
>and read about the previous discussion on it by some members.
>Since captcha back then was easier to break, it might not have been a
>profitable feature, according to the thread.
>But with the new recaptcha, I would like to know if the stand is the same.

There are a number of alternatives to captchas to prevent spam. None of them
is perfect, but one I kind of like is the honeypot approach:

It's basically an empty and visually hidden input field that is ecpected to
be emptily submitted. Most spam bots will try to fill it with some text,
which is the warning flag that can be used to ignore those submits.

The big plus is that it won't require human users to take any extra action,
making it completely unobtrusive to *most* users.

The one major downside is that it might be confusing to users who use screen
readers and to whom this extra input is properly displayed, which might cause
some confusion. Of course, this can be solved somewhat by labelling the field
accordingly, something like "Are you human? Than keep this empty".

Also, I have no idea how sophisticated spam bots are becoming in detecting
honeypots, for instance by only trying to use "known" fields like "username",
"email address" and so forth.

Still, even if this is not a perfect solution, it might still be better than
the big usage impediment of captchas.

As a side-note, especially to those who are using screen readers: What is
your experience regarding the use of JavaScript in current screen readers? Is
this still mostly a no-go for web sites aiming to be accessible or has there
been some improvement?

Cheers,
Florian


>
>Thanks
>
>Aditya
>_______________________________________________
>Mailman-Developers mailing list
>Mailman-Developers at python.org
>https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
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>Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
>Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/f%40florianfuchs.com
>
>Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9

From chris at schoeppi.net  Mon Mar  7 06:35:42 2016
From: chris at schoeppi.net (Christian Schoepplein)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 12:35:42 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <20160307103459.GA9259@mud.redhat.com>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160307103459.GA9259@mud.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20160307113542.GA6773@v.cs-x.de>

On Mo, M?r 07, 2016 at 11:35:00 +0100, Florian Fuchs wrote:
>There are a number of alternatives to captchas to prevent spam. None of them
>is perfect, but one I kind of like is the honeypot approach:
>
>It's basically an empty and visually hidden input field that is ecpected to
>be emptily submitted. Most spam bots will try to fill it with some text,
>which is the warning flag that can be used to ignore those submits.
>
>The big plus is that it won't require human users to take any extra action,
>making it completely unobtrusive to *most* users.
>
>The one major downside is that it might be confusing to users who use screen
>readers and to whom this extra input is properly displayed, which might cause
>some confusion. Of course, this can be solved somewhat by labelling the field
>accordingly, something like "Are you human? Than keep this empty".

I think I was using sites with this spam protection approach and itwas 
OK for me.If the field which needs to be empty is clearly labeled, it 
should cause no problem.

>Also, I have no idea how sophisticated spam bots are becoming in detecting
>honeypots, for instance by only trying to use "known" fields like "username",
>"email address" and so forth.

Because the mailman sites which are publicly available to the users 
doall have the same structure, programming bots that can handle this 
sites will be no big problem IMHO.

>Still, even if this is not a perfect solution, it might still be better than
>the big usage impediment of captchas.

Full ACK :-).

>As a side-note, especially to those who are using screen readers: What is
>your experience regarding the use of JavaScript in current screen readers? Is
>this still mostly a no-go for web sites aiming to be accessible or has there
>been some improvement?

Javascript is no problem with modern screen readers and browsers, so no 
need to not use it. But for example I work very ofthen on linux systems 
in the console and there is no browser with Javascript support, for this 
reason I'm happy about every site that is also useable inthis 
environment :-).

Ciao,

  Schoepp

-- 
Christian Schoepplein - <chris (at) schoeppi.net> - http://schoeppi.net


From barry at list.org  Mon Mar  7 09:59:32 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 09:59:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3 on lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <56DD1246.7060209@msapiro.net>
References: <56DB7654.8060802@msapiro.net>
 <20160306123745.5013bb23@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56DC79AF.1030602@msapiro.net>
 <22236.56053.226842.140622@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <56DD1246.7060209@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20160307095932.1265b107@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 06, 2016, at 09:31 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>I neglected to even think about the full circle DNS which is for
>outgoing mail. The issue here is that the server's IP address has no
>rDNS PTR record at all. The authority for this is rackspace, so they
>would need to install a PTR from 201.228.239.104.in-addr.arpa. (i.e.rDNS
>for 104.239.228.201) to mail.mailman3.org. Probably
>infrastructure at python.org can help with this.

I pinged Donald off line; this should be set up now.

Cheers,
-Barry
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From saurabhagrahari488 at gmail.com  Mon Mar  7 03:09:55 2016
From: saurabhagrahari488 at gmail.com (saurabh agrahari)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 13:39:55 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GSOC 16
Message-ID: <CAH3aFcDqnpzXfPuOXED+S0oC-THMZzgxhDoUDpcuah4iYi9Z4A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone
I am a second year student from IIIT hyderabad.
I liked the project GitLab/development tools integration
How should I proceed into this project.

From Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de  Mon Mar  7 07:00:13 2016
From: Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de (Sebastian Hagedorn)
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 13:00:13 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Patch for HyperArch
Message-ID: <8580C5DC2EE8E37F372FE68B@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>

Hi,

we recently needed to rebuild a rather old list archive. The oldest mails 
are from 2001, and as far as I could tell the last complete rebuild 
happened in 2005. When we ran "arch --wipe" now, it failed:

Aktualisiere HTML f?r Artikel 1412
Schreibe Archivzustand in Datei 
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/linux-users/pipermail.pck
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "./arch", line 201, in <module>
     main()
   File "./arch", line 189, in main
     archiver.processUnixMailbox(fp, start, end)
   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 587, in 
processUnixMailbox
     a = self._makeArticle(m, self.sequence)
   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 688, in 
_makeArticle
     mlist=self.maillist)
   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 264, in 
__init__
     self.__super_init(message, sequence, keepHeaders)
   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 186, in 
__init__
     self._set_date(message)
   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 601, in 
_set_date
     self.fromdate = time.ctime(int(self.date))
ValueError: timestamp out of range for platform time_t

Obviously the mails that caused this error were broken, but a previous 
version of arch was able to build the archive regardless. I wrote the 
following patch to work around the problem (I wrote it for 2.1.18, but I 
checked that the code looks the same in 2.1.21):

--- /service/HyperArch.py	2014-07-16 13:01:11.000000000 +0200
+++ HyperArch.py	2016-03-07 11:25:34.000000000 +0100
@@ -598,7 +598,14 @@

     def _set_date(self, message):
         self.__super_set_date(message)
-        self.fromdate = time.ctime(int(self.date))
+	try:
+        	self.fromdate = time.ctime(int(self.date))
+	except ValueError:
+            	syslog('error',
+                   'Archive error. Date %s is invalid.',
+                   int(self.date))
+		self.date = str(int(time.time()))
+		self.fromdate = time.ctime(int(self.date))

     def loadbody_fromHTML(self,fileobj):
         self.body = []

If an exception is caught, the date is simply set to the current time.
-- 
    .:.Sebastian Hagedorn - Weyertal 121 (Geb?ude 133), Zimmer 2.02.:.
                 .:.Regionales Rechenzentrum (RRZK).:.
   .:.Universit?t zu K?ln / Cologne University - ? +49-221-470-89578.:.
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From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar  7 12:47:57 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 09:47:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3 on lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <20160307095932.1265b107@subdivisions.wooz.org>
References: <56DB7654.8060802@msapiro.net>
 <20160306123745.5013bb23@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56DC79AF.1030602@msapiro.net>
 <22236.56053.226842.140622@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <56DD1246.7060209@msapiro.net>
 <20160307095932.1265b107@subdivisions.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <56DDBECD.8040108@msapiro.net>

On 03/07/2016 06:59 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> 
> I pinged Donald off line; this should be set up now.


Yes. It looks good. I should make significant progress on the setup this
week.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar  7 17:35:47 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 14:35:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Patch for HyperArch
In-Reply-To: <8580C5DC2EE8E37F372FE68B@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
References: <8580C5DC2EE8E37F372FE68B@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
Message-ID: <56DE0243.1090009@msapiro.net>

On 03/07/2016 04:00 AM, Sebastian Hagedorn wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> we recently needed to rebuild a rather old list archive. The oldest
> mails are from 2001, and as far as I could tell the last complete
> rebuild happened in 2005. When we ran "arch --wipe" now, it failed:
> 
...
> ValueError: timestamp out of range for platform time_t
> 
> Obviously the mails that caused this error were broken, but a previous
> version of arch was able to build the archive regardless. I wrote the
> following patch to work around the problem (I wrote it for 2.1.18, but I
> checked that the code looks the same in 2.1.21):
> 
> --- /service/HyperArch.py    2014-07-16 13:01:11.000000000 +0200
> +++ HyperArch.py    2016-03-07 11:25:34.000000000 +0100
> @@ -598,7 +598,14 @@
> 
>     def _set_date(self, message):
>         self.__super_set_date(message)
> -        self.fromdate = time.ctime(int(self.date))
> +    try:
> +            self.fromdate = time.ctime(int(self.date))
> +    except ValueError:
> +                syslog('error',
> +                   'Archive error. Date %s is invalid.',
> +                   int(self.date))
> +        self.date = str(int(time.time()))
> +        self.fromdate = time.ctime(int(self.date))
> 
>     def loadbody_fromHTML(self,fileobj):
>         self.body = []
> 
> If an exception is caught, the date is simply set to the current time.

I understand the patch, but I'm not sure if setting the current time is
appropriate. In particular, the self.__super_set_date(message) method,
if it doesn't find a valid date: or x-list-received-date: header in the
message will set the time to that of the previous article + 1 second.

In any case, I'd like to understand more about why/how the issue occurs.
To that end, I'd like to see a copy of the offending message from the
mbox file. Also, I wonder if bypassing the error and setting a date
which will almost certainly archive the message in the wrong period is
better than fixing the message in the mbox.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Mon Mar  7 21:35:11 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 08:05:11 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman-bundler installation
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQJXNzZzLX7E=HdYHitGvr0dQOLHk1KbJJKRKCvtykK8Jg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
I recently reinstalled my OS, ubuntu 14.04 , and was trying to get the
development server for mailman running. (I had mailman running in my
previous OS setup, but I had to reinstall my OS due to some python issues)
For this I was following the mailman-bundler documentation. After
activating the python2.7 virtual environment, when I give the command to
start mailman, I get an error.
(venv) aditya at aditya:~/mailman-server/mailman-bundler$ sudo
./bin/mailman-web-django-admin runserver &
[1] 3299
(venv) aditya at aditya:~/mailman-server/mailman-bundler$ INFO Generating
grammar tables from /usr/lib/python2.7/lib2to3/Grammar.txt
INFO Generating grammar tables from
/usr/lib/python2.7/lib2to3/PatternGrammar.txt
INFO Generating grammar tables from /usr/lib/python2.7/lib2to3/Grammar.txt
INFO Generating grammar tables from
/usr/lib/python2.7/lib2to3/PatternGrammar.txt
Performing system checks...

System check identified no issues (0 silenced).
March 07, 2016 - 20:43:38
Django version 1.8.11, using settings 'mailman_web.development'
Starting development server at http://127.0.0.1:8000/
Quit the server with CONTROL-C.
/home/aditya/mailman-server/mailman-bundler/mailman_web/urls.py:7:
RemovedInDjango19Warning: Default value of 'RedirectView.permanent' will
change from True to False in Django 1.9. Set an explicit value to silence
this warning.
  url(r'^$',
RedirectView.as_view(url=reverse_lazy('hyperkitty.views.index.index'))),

WARNING /home/aditya/mailman-server/mailman-bundler/mailman_web/urls.py:7:
RemovedInDjango19Warning: Default value of 'RedirectView.permanent' will
change from True to False in Django 1.9. Set an explicit value to silence
this warning.
  url(r'^$',
RedirectView.as_view(url=reverse_lazy('hyperkitty.views.index.index'))),

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/wsgiref/handlers.py", line 85, in run
    self.result = application(self.environ, self.start_response)
  File
"/home/aditya/mailman-server/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/contrib/staticfiles/handlers.py",
line 63, in __call__
    return self.application(environ, start_response)
  File
"/home/aditya/mailman-server/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/core/handlers/wsgi.py",
line 170, in __call__
    self.load_middleware()
  File
"/home/aditya/mailman-server/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/core/handlers/base.py",
line 50, in load_middleware
    mw_class = import_string(middleware_path)
  File
"/home/aditya/mailman-server/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/utils/module_loading.py",
line 26, in import_string
    module = import_module(module_path)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/importlib/__init__.py", line 37, in import_module
    __import__(name)
ImportError: No module named middleware


I tried checking for the solution online, but couldn't find a fix. I
reinstalled django twice to ensure that the installation was thorough, and
that all the libraries were installed.
Has anyone faced this issue?
Note - I am currently running django 1.9.4 in both python3 and python2.7,
and have installed django 1.8.11 in the 'venv' virtual environment.

From simon.hanna at serve-me.info  Mon Mar  7 21:43:18 2016
From: simon.hanna at serve-me.info (Simon Hanna)
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 03:43:18 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman-bundler installation
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQJXNzZzLX7E=HdYHitGvr0dQOLHk1KbJJKRKCvtykK8Jg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQJXNzZzLX7E=HdYHitGvr0dQOLHk1KbJJKRKCvtykK8Jg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56DE3C46.5010201@serve-me.info>

On 03/08/2016 03:35 AM, Aditya Divekar wrote:
> Hi,
> I recently reinstalled my OS, ubuntu 14.04 , and was trying to get the
> development server for mailman running. (I had mailman running in my
> previous OS setup, but I had to reinstall my OS due to some python issues)
You generally don't want to reinstall an os. You should fix it. OTOH I'm using archlinux, so it
might just be arch talking :D
> For this I was following the mailman-bundler documentation. After
Do you want to participate in development? Then _don't_ use mailman-bundler.
Mailman-bundler is for production setups and to just try it out.
Refer to the documentation of the projects on readthedocs.org on how to get dev setups running.
> activating the python2.7 virtual environment, when I give the command to
> start mailman, I get an error.
> (venv) aditya at aditya:~/mailman-server/mailman-bundler$ sudo
> ./bin/mailman-web-django-admin runserver &
> [1] 3299
_Never_ ever run this using sudo !!!!
You should only use sudo to do administrative tasks on your pc. Do not run any program that throws
errors using sudo. That might actually brick your pc and in the end require a reinstallation
> (venv) aditya at aditya:~/mailman-server/mailman-bundler$ INFO Generating
> grammar tables from /usr/lib/python2.7/lib2to3/Grammar.txt
> INFO Generating grammar tables from
> /usr/lib/python2.7/lib2to3/PatternGrammar.txt
> INFO Generating grammar tables from /usr/lib/python2.7/lib2to3/Grammar.txt
> INFO Generating grammar tables from
> /usr/lib/python2.7/lib2to3/PatternGrammar.txt
> Performing system checks...
> 
> System check identified no issues (0 silenced).
> March 07, 2016 - 20:43:38
> Django version 1.8.11, using settings 'mailman_web.development'
> Starting development server at http://127.0.0.1:8000/
> Quit the server with CONTROL-C.
> /home/aditya/mailman-server/mailman-bundler/mailman_web/urls.py:7:
> RemovedInDjango19Warning: Default value of 'RedirectView.permanent' will
> change from True to False in Django 1.9. Set an explicit value to silence
> this warning.
>   url(r'^$',
> RedirectView.as_view(url=reverse_lazy('hyperkitty.views.index.index'))),
> 
> WARNING /home/aditya/mailman-server/mailman-bundler/mailman_web/urls.py:7:
> RemovedInDjango19Warning: Default value of 'RedirectView.permanent' will
> change from True to False in Django 1.9. Set an explicit value to silence
> this warning.
>   url(r'^$',
> RedirectView.as_view(url=reverse_lazy('hyperkitty.views.index.index'))),
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.7/wsgiref/handlers.py", line 85, in run
>     self.result = application(self.environ, self.start_response)
>   File
> "/home/aditya/mailman-server/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/contrib/staticfiles/handlers.py",
> line 63, in __call__
>     return self.application(environ, start_response)
>   File
> "/home/aditya/mailman-server/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/core/handlers/wsgi.py",
> line 170, in __call__
>     self.load_middleware()
>   File
> "/home/aditya/mailman-server/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/core/handlers/base.py",
> line 50, in load_middleware
>     mw_class = import_string(middleware_path)
>   File
> "/home/aditya/mailman-server/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/utils/module_loading.py",
> line 26, in import_string
>     module = import_module(module_path)
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.7/importlib/__init__.py", line 37, in import_module
>     __import__(name)
> ImportError: No module named middleware
> 
> 
> I tried checking for the solution online, but couldn't find a fix. I
> reinstalled django twice to ensure that the installation was thorough, and
> that all the libraries were installed.
> Has anyone faced this issue?
There is an issue over at postorius regarding this
https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/issues/107
You will have to manually fix it.
> Note - I am currently running django 1.9.4 in both python3 and python2.7,
> and have installed django 1.8.11 in the 'venv' virtual environment.
postorius and hyperkitty are currently python2 projects. So python3 will most probably not work at all


From daman.4880 at gmail.com  Mon Mar  7 23:10:50 2016
From: daman.4880 at gmail.com (Daman Singh)
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 09:40:50 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman-bundler installation
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQJXNzZzLX7E=HdYHitGvr0dQOLHk1KbJJKRKCvtykK8Jg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQJXNzZzLX7E=HdYHitGvr0dQOLHk1KbJJKRKCvtykK8Jg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9hymV0ccXfz0M6vHAxXDiCGRv+5p9w11NCdsuCXsy=Bt7jjw@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/8/16, Aditya Divekar <adityadivekar03 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> I recently reinstalled my OS, ubuntu 14.04 , and was trying to get the
> development server for mailman running. (I had mailman running in my
> previous OS setup, but I had to reinstall my OS due to some python issues)
> For this I was following the mailman-bundler documentation. After
> activating the python2.7 virtual environment, when I give the command to
> start mailman, I get an error.
> (venv) aditya at aditya:~/mailman-server/mailman-bundler$ sudo
> ./bin/mailman-web-django-admin runserver &
> [1] 3299
> (venv) aditya at aditya:~/mailman-server/mailman-bundler$ INFO Generating
> grammar tables from /usr/lib/python2.7/lib2to3/Grammar.txt
> INFO Generating grammar tables from
> /usr/lib/python2.7/lib2to3/PatternGrammar.txt
> INFO Generating grammar tables from /usr/lib/python2.7/lib2to3/Grammar.txt
> INFO Generating grammar tables from
> /usr/lib/python2.7/lib2to3/PatternGrammar.txt
> Performing system checks...
>
> System check identified no issues (0 silenced).
> March 07, 2016 - 20:43:38
> Django version 1.8.11, using settings 'mailman_web.development'
> Starting development server at http://127.0.0.1:8000/
> Quit the server with CONTROL-C.
> /home/aditya/mailman-server/mailman-bundler/mailman_web/urls.py:7:
> RemovedInDjango19Warning: Default value of 'RedirectView.permanent' will
> change from True to False in Django 1.9. Set an explicit value to silence
> this warning.
>   url(r'^$',
> RedirectView.as_view(url=reverse_lazy('hyperkitty.views.index.index'))),
>
> WARNING /home/aditya/mailman-server/mailman-bundler/mailman_web/urls.py:7:
> RemovedInDjango19Warning: Default value of 'RedirectView.permanent' will
> change from True to False in Django 1.9. Set an explicit value to silence
> this warning.
>   url(r'^$',
> RedirectView.as_view(url=reverse_lazy('hyperkitty.views.index.index'))),
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.7/wsgiref/handlers.py", line 85, in run
>     self.result = application(self.environ, self.start_response)
>   File
> "/home/aditya/mailman-server/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/contrib/staticfiles/handlers.py",
> line 63, in __call__
>     return self.application(environ, start_response)
>   File
> "/home/aditya/mailman-server/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/core/handlers/wsgi.py",
> line 170, in __call__
>     self.load_middleware()
>   File
> "/home/aditya/mailman-server/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/core/handlers/base.py",
> line 50, in load_middleware
>     mw_class = import_string(middleware_path)
>   File
> "/home/aditya/mailman-server/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/utils/module_loading.py",
> line 26, in import_string
>     module = import_module(module_path)
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.7/importlib/__init__.py", line 37, in
> import_module
>     __import__(name)
> ImportError: No module named middleware
>
Here is a small suggestion, instead of pasting terminal text here you
should consider using pastebin.

> I tried checking for the solution online, but couldn't find a fix. I
> reinstalled django twice to ensure that the installation was thorough, and
> that all the libraries were installed.
> Has anyone faced this issue?
> Note - I am currently running django 1.9.4 in both python3 and python2.7,
> and have installed django 1.8.11 in the 'venv' virtual environment.
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/daman.4880%40gmail.com
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>

From godricglow at gmail.com  Mon Mar  7 23:33:43 2016
From: godricglow at gmail.com (Pranjal Yadav)
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 10:18:43 +0545
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GSOC 16
In-Reply-To: <CAH3aFcDqnpzXfPuOXED+S0oC-THMZzgxhDoUDpcuah4iYi9Z4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH3aFcDqnpzXfPuOXED+S0oC-THMZzgxhDoUDpcuah4iYi9Z4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE2E6mkpHs+A=kbe-YBXvpDBoJq++wqTiZqAkP+i=AosRRxryw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone
>

Hi Saurabh


> I am a second year student from IIIT hyderabad.
> I liked the project GitLab/development tools integration
> How should I proceed into this project.
>

First step is to complete the setup. You should follow "
http://mailman.readthedocs.org/en/release-3.0/".
You can also take a look at "
http://mailman-bundler.readthedocs.org/en/latest/", since you will be
building
it for the first time it is expected that you may face some issues, if not,
great!

Next step would be "following" the mailing list since many other students
are looking out for the listed projects
and a lot of information is available in the mails. You will mostly find
all the FAQs. Then you can start looking
for some beginner level bugs, This should get you started :)

All the best

> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/godricglow%40gmail.com
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>



-- 

*Pranjal Yadav*

*IIT Kharagpur*

From raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  8 00:35:21 2016
From: raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com (Abhilash Raj)
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 21:35:21 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GSOC 16
In-Reply-To: <CAE2E6mkpHs+A=kbe-YBXvpDBoJq++wqTiZqAkP+i=AosRRxryw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH3aFcDqnpzXfPuOXED+S0oC-THMZzgxhDoUDpcuah4iYi9Z4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE2E6mkpHs+A=kbe-YBXvpDBoJq++wqTiZqAkP+i=AosRRxryw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87lh5tv8fa.fsf@gmail.com>

Hi Saurabh,

Pranjal Yadav writes:

> Hi everyone
>>
>
> Hi Saurabh
>
>
>> I am a second year student from IIIT hyderabad.
>> I liked the project GitLab/development tools integration
>> How should I proceed into this project.
>>
>
> First step is to complete the setup. You should follow "
> http://mailman.readthedocs.org/en/release-3.0/".
> You can also take a look at "
> http://mailman-bundler.readthedocs.org/en/latest/", since you will be
> building
> it for the first time it is expected that you may face some issues, if not,
> great!


I would like to add another line that use mailman-bundler only to test
it out. If you are aiming for development, then it would be a good idea
to setup the entire development environment manually.


-- 
thanks,
Abhilash Raj
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From dandrews at visi.com  Tue Mar  8 00:57:42 2016
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 23:57:42 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <20160307103459.GA9259@mud.redhat.com>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160307103459.GA9259@mud.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000052372013@mailfront1.g2host.com>

At 04:35 AM 3/7/2016, Florian Fuchs wrote:
>On Sat, Mar 05, 2016 at 16:27:31PM +0530, Aditya Divekar wrote:
>As a side-note, especially to those who are using screen readers: What is
>your experience regarding the use of JavaScript in current screen readers? Is
>this still mostly a no-go for web sites aiming to be accessible or has there
>been some improvement?

Most Javascript works fine, as long as it doesn't do unorthodox 
things in unorthodox ways, javascript should work with screen 
readers. After all, most web sites use it to one extent or another.

Dave




         David Andrews and long white cane Harry.
E-Mail:  dandrews at visi.com or david.andrews at nfbnet.org


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Mar  8 03:42:33 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:42:33 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pastebin considered "suboptimal" [was:
 Mailman-bundler installation]
In-Reply-To: <CA+9hymV0ccXfz0M6vHAxXDiCGRv+5p9w11NCdsuCXsy=Bt7jjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQJXNzZzLX7E=HdYHitGvr0dQOLHk1KbJJKRKCvtykK8Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+9hymV0ccXfz0M6vHAxXDiCGRv+5p9w11NCdsuCXsy=Bt7jjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22238.36985.767439.403567@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Daman Singh writes:

 > Here is a small suggestion, instead of pasting terminal text here you
 > should consider using pastebin.

-1.  Pastebin goes away, making the post useless to anybody who
experiences the same problem in the future.  Even while it lasts, it
mean you have to search the whole web rather than site:mail.python.org
for something you *know* you saw on mailman-developers.  (Google
doesn't care, I suspect, but you can thin out the results quite
quickly with a site: spec.)

Steve




From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Mar  8 03:43:43 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:43:43 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman-bundler installation
In-Reply-To: <56DE3C46.5010201@serve-me.info>
References: <CAAQRvQJXNzZzLX7E=HdYHitGvr0dQOLHk1KbJJKRKCvtykK8Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DE3C46.5010201@serve-me.info>
Message-ID: <22238.37055.348003.686930@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Simon Hanna writes:

 > Mailman-bundler is for production setups and to just try it out.

So?  Of course he has to have a checkout to participate in
development, but given that we don't have a migration story yet, and
bundler keeps throwing errors for people, I don't see why developers
shouldn't use bundler as well as a from-checkout build.

Of course if a person's main interest is coding, bundler is
potentially something of a waste of time.

Steve

From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  8 06:54:15 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:24:15 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman-bundler installation
In-Reply-To: <22238.37055.348003.686930@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAAQRvQJXNzZzLX7E=HdYHitGvr0dQOLHk1KbJJKRKCvtykK8Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DE3C46.5010201@serve-me.info>
 <22238.37055.348003.686930@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQLTCSJpAP3UL0w0HVwTvfr5gjPZXe2PLLWB_u7AL1fwKA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Thanks Simon. I followed the docs and now Mailman 3.0 is up and running :)

And I'll keep that in mind henceforth @Daman Singh. Thanks.

Aditya.

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Tue Mar  8 07:11:57 2016
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 12:11:57 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pastebin considered "suboptimal" [was:
 Mailman-bundler installation]
In-Reply-To: <22238.36985.767439.403567@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAAQRvQJXNzZzLX7E=HdYHitGvr0dQOLHk1KbJJKRKCvtykK8Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+9hymV0ccXfz0M6vHAxXDiCGRv+5p9w11NCdsuCXsy=Bt7jjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22238.36985.767439.403567@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20160308121157.GM21217@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Tue, Mar 08, 2016 at 05:42:33PM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Daman Singh writes:
>  > Here is a small suggestion, instead of pasting terminal text here you
>  > should consider using pastebin.

On the plus side, it was as text, not as a screen shot of a terminal
session?

> -1.  Pastebin goes away, making the post useless to anybody who
> experiences the same problem in the future.  Even while it lasts, it
> mean you have to search the whole web rather than site:mail.python.org
> for something you *know* you saw on mailman-developers.  (Google
> doesn't care, I suspect, but you can thin out the results quite
> quickly with a site: spec.)

And of course, follow the link to read the contents, rather than just
seeing it in your mail client (with the added bonus of being able to
make in-line replies; rather than clone (as pastebin doesn't have fork
like gists do))

-- 
"Unless specified in detail, all drinks are champagne in Lottie's 
 parlour."
    -- Vile Bodies (Waugh)

From Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de  Tue Mar  8 07:42:58 2016
From: Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de (Sebastian Hagedorn)
Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:42:58 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Patch for HyperArch
In-Reply-To: <56DE0243.1090009@msapiro.net>
References: <8580C5DC2EE8E37F372FE68B@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DE0243.1090009@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <51E3568656CA930D61E243FC@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>

--On 7. M?rz 2016 um 14:35:47 -0800 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

>> If an exception is caught, the date is simply set to the current time.
>
> I understand the patch, but I'm not sure if setting the current time is
> appropriate. In particular, the self.__super_set_date(message) method,
> if it doesn't find a valid date: or x-list-received-date: header in the
> message will set the time to that of the previous article + 1 second.

I suppose that didn't work, because there were multiple such messages in a 
row, if you can even call them that ;-)

> In any case, I'd like to understand more about why/how the issue occurs.
> To that end, I'd like to see a copy of the offending message from the
> mbox file. Also, I wonder if bypassing the error and setting a date
> which will almost certainly archive the message in the wrong period is
> better than fixing the message in the mbox.

The thing is that initially I had no way of finding out which messages 
caused the problem. That's why I primarily looked for a way to just 
complete the job of rebuilding the archive. I agree that there may be 
better solutions. I could imagine skipping such broken messages, for 
example.

Here are the culprits. They are now easy to find, because they are all new 
in the archive :-) (which is public, btw: 
<https://lists.uni-koeln.de/pipermail/linux-users/2016-March/thread.html>)

---------------------

>From foo at bar  Mon Nov  7 14:08:46 2005

169562

>From foo at bar  Mon Nov  7 14:08:46 2005

27203

>From foo at bar  Mon Nov  7 14:08:46 2005

108420

>From foo at bar  Mon Nov  7 14:08:46 2005

35662

----------------------

Don't ask me how they ended up in that .mbox file in the first place ;-)
I assume they are an artefact from the time when we moved from Majordomo to 
Mailman.

Then there are a few broken spam messages:

----------------------

>From owner-linux-users at rrz.uni-koeln.de  Mon Nov  7 14:13:18 2005
Received: (from daemon at localhost)
        by mail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA05687
        for linux-users-out; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 02:34:21 +0100 (MET)
Received: from horizon.barak-online.net (horizon.barak.net.il 
[206.49.94.218])
        by mail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA05681
        for <linux-users at rrz.uni-koeln.de>; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 02:34:18 +0100 
(MET)
Received: from rrz.uni-koeln.de (pop09-1-ras1-p146.barak.net.il 
[212.150.107.146])
        by horizon.barak-online.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id DAA28082
        for linux-users at rrz.uni-koeln.de; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 03:33:39 +0200 
(IST)
Message-Id: <200012180133.DAA28082 at horizon.barak-online.net>
From: mnadiv<mnadiv at barak-online.net>
REPLY-TO: mnadiv at barak-online.net
X-Mailer: EzyMassMailer V2.xx
Date: 18 ????? 2000

>From owner-linux-users at rrz.uni-koeln.de  Mon Nov  7 14:08:09 2005
Received: from mail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (localhost [127.0.0.1])
        by mail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id 
g5UBbvtD027896
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 
verify=NOT)
        for <linux-users-out at mail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE>; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 
13:37:57 +0200 (MEST)
Received: (from daemon at localhost)
        by mail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g5UBbvU7027895
        for linux-users-out; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 13:37:57 +0200 (MEST)
Received: from yahoo.com ([213.201.170.67])
        by mail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (8.12.3/8.12.2) with SMTP id 
g5UBbstC027887
        for <linux-users at uni-koeln.de>; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 13:37:55 +0200 
(MEST)
Received: from [181.21.240.177] by f64.law4.hottestmale.com with asmtp; 01 
Jul 0102 04:46:55 -0900
Received: from 15.9.163.146 ([15.9.163.146]) by m10.grp.snv.yahui.com with 
QMQP; Sun, 30 Jun 0102 19:38:13 -0800
Reply-To: <sanne18 at yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <025b58a45d4d$4771c5b1$6dd17ce3 at warwgu>
From: <sanne18 at yahoo.com>
To: susanne18 at yahoo.com
Subject: Hello
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 0102 17:30:47 -0600

----------------------

There is a single legitimate message with a broken Date header:

>From owner-linux-users at rrz.uni-koeln.de  Mon Nov  7 14:11:54 2005
Received: (from daemon at localhost)
        by mail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA14125
        for linux-users-out; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 00:50:08 +0100 (MET)
Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bonn.de 
(olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de [131.220.4.1])
        by mail1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA14116
        for <linux-users at rrz.uni-koeln.de>; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 00:50:06 +0100 
(MET)
Received: from zeus.informatik.uni-bonn.de (zeus.informatik.uni-bonn.de 
[131.220.5.25])
        by mailhost.informatik.uni-bonn.de (Postfix) with ESMTP
        id 15D5562E9; Fri,  4 Feb 2000 00:51:32 +0100 (MET)
Received: (from guertler at localhost)
        by zeus.informatik.uni-bonn.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id AAA19251;
        Fri, 4 Feb 2000 00:51:43 +0100 (MET)
From: Michael Guertler <guertler at triton.informatik.uni-bonn.de>
Message-Id: <200002032351.AAA19251 at zeus.informatik.uni-bonn.de>
Subject: Re: AVI -> MPEG
To: ocordes at astro.uni-bonn.de (Oliver Cordes)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 100 00:51:42 +0100 (MET)

At the very least I would suggest that arch should dump the headers of the 
offending message, so that it can be repaired, but I'm open for other 
suggestions.

Cheers
Sebastian
-- 
    .:.Sebastian Hagedorn - Weyertal 121 (Geb?ude 133), Zimmer 2.02.:.
                 .:.Regionales Rechenzentrum (RRZK).:.
   .:.Universit?t zu K?ln / Cologne University - ? +49-221-470-89578.:.

From barry at list.org  Tue Mar  8 09:51:45 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 09:51:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Developters] GSoC support
In-Reply-To: <56DBEA51.20707@gmail.com>
References: <CAJN8wG2BBxM+V6esAPdnGHE1rnG4JtvJoGWiX3F6sXiVryXkiw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DB46AF.8090604@gmail.com>
 <CAJN8wG0PwUYP2OpRnOnOhF+vT5h6DWmi-gmZzrQw05AF3Vjong@mail.gmail.com>
 <56DBEA51.20707@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160308095145.29bab7b3@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 06, 2016, at 12:29 AM, Abhilash Raj wrote:

>Right now, Mailman sends each email it receives to the (enabled)
>Archivers through a POST request. We want to have a pub/sub kind of
>model for the emails as well as some of the events that other archivers
>or apps built on top of mailman can consume. Events like ListCreated,
>ListRemoved or something like that.

>On 03/06/2016 12:19 AM, amil shanaka wrote:
>> Hi,
>> thank you for your reply. other than that can we use any open source
>> packages like netty and what prototype do we need to implement regarding
>> pub/sub .. MQTT or AMQP ?   
>
>The idea is to make a common interface that can use any messaging
>back-end that does the Job. I guess MQTT is meant for high latency and
>unreliable network, not much of our use case, so AMQP should be more
>relevant. However, I am not very aware about the current trends in the
>message passing and pub/sub models out there right now.

Something to keep in mind is that internally, the core already employs
zope.events to inform non-local components when certain things happen.

A good example is ConfigurationUpdatedEvent which gets emitted in the
_post_process() method of the Configuration class.  Thus components like the
i18n infrastructure and language manager, the switchboards, style managers,
etc. can respond to the event.

More events can certainly be added, but we already have events such as
ListCreatingEvent/ListCreatedEvent, ListDeletingEvent/ListDeletedEvent, and
AcceptEvent, which is used when the message is accepted for posting, but is as
yet unprocessed by the handler pipeline.

One important implementation detail is that it's currently not very convenient
to register new event subscribers.  mailman.app.events.initialize() is where
this happens, but it's all hard coded.  Ideally there would be a .cfg/.ini
file or some such that this would read dynamically to add new event
subscribers.

Anyway, with all that, I think you could fairly easily write a pubsub
component that responded to the events you care about.

Cheers,
-Barry

From fonofotso18 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  8 02:39:35 2016
From: fonofotso18 at gmail.com (Fotso Fono)
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 08:39:35 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman3- postorius_standalone Issues
Message-ID: <CAEcRfiUtBNOOZ_nAYORS2_Qsei-04jFGAzZ808eOj3TavWVV0A@mail.gmail.com>

Hello, i am trying to set up Mailman3 everything has been moving on well. i
ran the command "python manage.py runserver" in postorius_stanalone. when i
access localhost:8000 and error pops on the terminal saying "no module
middleware found" and an error page is displayed on browser. I tried
getting the root of the problem.
In postorius_stanalone in the MIDDLEWARE_CLASSES,
"postorius.middleware.PostoriusMiddleware"  seems to be the one causing the
the problem. Please is there any solution to this or have i done something
wrong?? I am new to mailman. thanks in advance

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Mar  8 11:48:40 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:48:40 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers]  Mailman3- postorius_standalone Issues
In-Reply-To: <CAEcRfiUtBNOOZ_nAYORS2_Qsei-04jFGAzZ808eOj3TavWVV0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEcRfiUtBNOOZ_nAYORS2_Qsei-04jFGAzZ808eOj3TavWVV0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22239.616.878996.289080@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Fotso Fono writes:

 > Hello, i am trying to set up Mailman3 everything has been moving on
 > well. i ran the command "python manage.py runserver" in
 > postorius_stanalone. when i access localhost:8000 and error pops on
 > the terminal saying "no module middleware found" and an error page
 > is displayed on browser. I tried getting the root of the problem.

 > In postorius_stanalone in the MIDDLEWARE_CLASSES,
 > "postorius.middleware.PostoriusMiddleware" seems to be the one
 > causing the the problem.

Depending on how you set up your installation (you need to tell us
that!!), you *may* be able to just remove that line.  See
https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/issues/107 for slightly more
information.


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Mar  8 18:43:11 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 15:43:11 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Patch for HyperArch
In-Reply-To: <51E3568656CA930D61E243FC@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
References: <8580C5DC2EE8E37F372FE68B@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DE0243.1090009@msapiro.net>
 <51E3568656CA930D61E243FC@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
Message-ID: <56DF638F.30203@msapiro.net>

On 03/08/2016 04:42 AM, Sebastian Hagedorn wrote:
> 
> Here are the culprits. They are now easy to find, because they are all
> new in the archive :-) (which is public, btw:
> <https://lists.uni-koeln.de/pipermail/linux-users/2016-March/thread.html>)
> 
...
> 
> Then there are a few broken spam messages:
> 
> ----------------------
> 
>> From owner-linux-users at rrz.uni-koeln.de  Mon Nov  7 14:13:18 2005
...
> Date: 18 ????? 2000
> 
>> From owner-linux-users at rrz.uni-koeln.de  Mon Nov  7 14:08:09 2005
...
> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 0102 17:30:47 -0600
> 
>> From owner-linux-users at rrz.uni-koeln.de  Mon Nov  7 14:11:54 2005
...
> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 100 00:51:42 +0100 (MET)


I'm still having difficulty duplicating what you saw.

For the above three messages, the first one just gets detected as an
invalid date and archived under the current date by the current bin/arch.

The other two throw "ValueError: year out of range" at

  File "/var/MM/21/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 984, in
dateToVolName
    return time.strftime("%Y-%B",datetuple)

which is a problem, but not the one you saw. I would like to see
messages that cause this error

  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 601, in
_set_date
    self.fromdate = time.ctime(int(self.date))
ValueError: timestamp out of range for platform time_t

that you reported. Can you find those bad messages in the .mbox input
file you used and send them to me?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de  Wed Mar  9 08:26:50 2016
From: Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de (Sebastian Hagedorn)
Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 14:26:50 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Patch for HyperArch
In-Reply-To: <56DF638F.30203@msapiro.net>
References: <8580C5DC2EE8E37F372FE68B@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DE0243.1090009@msapiro.net>
 <51E3568656CA930D61E243FC@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DF638F.30203@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <933C8B0A3D86051EA3F2495E@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>

Hi Mark,

thanks for looking into this.

--On 8. M?rz 2016 um 15:43:11 -0800 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> I'm still having difficulty duplicating what you saw.
>
> For the above three messages, the first one just gets detected as an
> invalid date and archived under the current date by the current bin/arch.
>
> The other two throw "ValueError: year out of range" at
>
>   File "/var/MM/21/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 984, in
> dateToVolName
>     return time.strftime("%Y-%B",datetuple)
>
> which is a problem, but not the one you saw. I would like to see
> messages that cause this error
>
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 601, in
> _set_date
>     self.fromdate = time.ctime(int(self.date))
> ValueError: timestamp out of range for platform time_t
>
> that you reported. Can you find those bad messages in the .mbox input
> file you used and send them to me?

We played around and found that the error is related to our version of 
Python. Here's a minimal test script that shows the issue:

from email.Utils import parseaddr, parsedate_tz, mktime_tz, formatdate
print mktime_tz(parsedate_tz("Fri, 4 Feb 100 00:51:42 +0100 (MET)"));

That's the Date header from the single piece of legitimate mail. Python 2.4 
throws the same exception you were seeing: "ValueError: year out of range". 
However, our Python 2.7 (which we use for Mailman) does this:

-59008522098

When that value is then passed to time.ctime(), you get "ValueError: 
timestamp out of range for platform time_t". We're on RHEL 5, and our 
version of Python 2.7 is from the IUSCommunity repo: 
python27-2.7.10-1.ius.el5. Which version of Python were you using?

Thanks,
Sebastian
-- 
    .:.Sebastian Hagedorn - Weyertal 121 (Geb?ude 133), Zimmer 2.02.:.
                 .:.Regionales Rechenzentrum (RRZK).:.
   .:.Universit?t zu K?ln / Cologne University - ? +49-221-470-89578.:.

From rsk at gsp.org  Wed Mar  9 08:43:18 2016
From: rsk at gsp.org (Rich Kulawiec)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 08:43:18 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CAPTCHA support
In-Reply-To: <20160307103459.GA9259@mud.redhat.com>
References: <CAAQRvQL=G44y3ug7dExdBL3cv7rVaGZvS+uj8w-fMPaPQ858dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160307103459.GA9259@mud.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <20160309134318.GA24187@gsp.org>

On Mon, Mar 07, 2016 at 11:35:00AM +0100, Florian Fuchs wrote:
> There are a number of alternatives to captchas to prevent spam. None of them
> is perfect, but one I kind of like is the honeypot approach:

There are others as well.  A few scattered examples:

1. Use the Spamhaus DROP and EDROP lists to forbid all access from
networks known to be hijacked and/or entirely controlled by spammers.
By "all", I mean "drop all packets at the firewall" and "do so
bidirectionally".

2. Use the various Spamhaus DNSBLs (particularly: Xen) to block
SMTP traffic.  The false positive (FP) rate from this is neglibly low.

3. Use country-specific IP allocations (see: ipdeny.com) to grant
or deny access on a country-by-country basis.  This won't work so
well for global mailing lists, but -- to make up an example -- a
list for skiers in western Colorado is unlikely to have subscribers
from Pakistan, Peru, or Portugal.  So why not block those countries
entirely?  The likelihood of a FP is tiny and can be mitigated by
providing a reporting method for those affected.

There are more, and the decision on which to employ depends on the
site, the list(s), the audience, etc.  But these are well-understood,
reliable, robust, difficult-to-game, predictable methods which yield
excellent results.

---rsk

From harshitbansal2015 at gmail.com  Wed Mar  9 12:21:33 2016
From: harshitbansal2015 at gmail.com (Harshit Bansal)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 22:51:33 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Discussion On Project Idea "Preset List
 Settings Templates" .
In-Reply-To: <56BB9AF0.6010701@gmail.com>
References: <CAGV4MTHxaZiG83-G9bf3S16LBpdxLqi2WygYpBjSivu0He4-yQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <569BF632.3010906@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTG1Zyn9k0eN=_5Jz3E=AodHmhkEx435Hi3xores46sarw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22184.4775.708220.823578@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAGV4MTFnaZEztXL2432KNNMBiyUgdOBvJ+ww_GvQJEvKxdVKfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56AD3D56.6020208@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTFukWFiHQNT+YBbT0bzL1UFEp8uKdFYOP=Vcuk45ii3_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BB9AF0.6010701@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGV4MTFzbP_zkxPwOwnv6JVzzDgup4ETY7Kp1ZfZp_mg=QXnYA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
As per previous discussions, it would be nice to support style
hierarchies such that the list owners can compose them and defer
settings to values higher up, that would allow the core to define some
basic styles and then list owners can just tweak a few settings to
modify one of those base styles but in this case should the changes in
base-styles be propagated to all the styles that inherit it or not.
If we allow the propagation of changes to inheriting styles, some list
owners might be uncomfortable with this feature as then if any of the
base-style changes their inheriting styles will change without any
kind of prior notification.

>> In the back-end, we will be using tables for storing style attributes
>> and permission level(read only or editable). This table will basically
>> contain all the "stylable" attributes with "default or predefined"
>> values as contained in the mailing list table and one extra column for
>> permissions.

I think the "Permissions Systems" would have nothing to do with the
core. It would be related to Postorius. We will have to create a style
model separately in Postorius which would store the style name and the
user who created it. Then only the user who has created the style
would be granted the permission to edit it.

>From UI point of view, there is one more feature that comes to my mind:
When the users are presented with an interface to customize the style,
we could provide them with two views, one 'simple' and another
'advanced'. The 'simple' one would show only the *frequently* (or most
commonly) changed attributes while the 'advanced' one will show all
the attributes. This will help them in customizing the styles.
I would like to hear some of your comments on it as well.

Thanks,
Harshit Bansal.


On 2/11/16, Abhilash Raj <raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 02/10/2016 10:03 AM, Harshit Bansal wrote:
>> Hi Abhilash,
>> In our previous discussion you mentioned that :
>>
>>> Permissions should also consider if the user wants to make his new style
>>> public or keep it private. And should public styles be editable by
>>> anyone or just read-only?
>>
>> I am unable to think of a use case in which it will be useful to have
>> private styles.. Can you please suggest a suitable use case?
>
> Well, i agree there is nothing "private" in list styles. We could just
> make all styles read-only for everyone. But if someone wants to use the
> style created by other users, it would be better idea to first make them
> copy the style so that the behavior or their list doesn't change when
> the owner changes the style.
>
>
> Barry: If you have some time, I would like to hear some of your thoughts
> on this thread? I believe you have some ideas of your own on how this is
> supposed to work.
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Harshit Bansal.
>>
>
> --
> thanks,
> Abhilash Raj
>
>

From vijaydwivedi75 at gmail.com  Wed Mar  9 04:23:11 2016
From: vijaydwivedi75 at gmail.com (Vijay Dwivedi)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 14:53:11 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Contribution to the "Preset list settings
 templates"
Message-ID: <CADBG3j8w1cju1MzrSr4sAP5FZj7u5EU=w22FB+s1nMOSfYa96w@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I am a Computer Science Undergraduate interested in contributing to the
GSoC'16 list styles project.
I have knowledge of Python and have programmed in this language.

I am pretty much enthusiastic regarding the development of list styles for
different mailing purposes
and I seek help regarding where to start from for this project.

I shall be highly thankful for the help.

-- 
*Regards,*
*Vijay Prakash Dwivedi*
CSE Undergrad
NIT Allahabad
+91-8175971936

From raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com  Wed Mar  9 14:49:38 2016
From: raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com (Abhilash Raj)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 11:49:38 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Contribution to the "Preset list settings
 templates"
In-Reply-To: <CADBG3j8w1cju1MzrSr4sAP5FZj7u5EU=w22FB+s1nMOSfYa96w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBG3j8w1cju1MzrSr4sAP5FZj7u5EU=w22FB+s1nMOSfYa96w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56E07E52.4000904@gmail.com>

Hi Vijay,


On 03/09/2016 01:23 AM, Vijay Dwivedi wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I am a Computer Science Undergraduate interested in contributing to the
> GSoC'16 list styles project.
> I have knowledge of Python and have programmed in this language.

Welcome!

> I am pretty much enthusiastic regarding the development of list styles for
> different mailing purposes
> and I seek help regarding where to start from for this project.

There is a discussion going on this project idea on this very list, you
can find the details in the archives[1]. Please let me know if you have
specific questions or ideas about this. I would need to than `where to
start` to be able to help you out.

> I shall be highly thankful for the help.
> 


[1]: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
-- 
thanks,
Abhilash Raj

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar  9 16:14:41 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 13:14:41 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Patch for HyperArch
In-Reply-To: <933C8B0A3D86051EA3F2495E@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
References: <8580C5DC2EE8E37F372FE68B@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DE0243.1090009@msapiro.net>
 <51E3568656CA930D61E243FC@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DF638F.30203@msapiro.net>
 <933C8B0A3D86051EA3F2495E@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
Message-ID: <56E09241.8080605@msapiro.net>

On 03/09/2016 05:26 AM, Sebastian Hagedorn wrote:
> 
> --On 8. M?rz 2016 um 15:43:11 -0800 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> 
>> I'm still having difficulty duplicating what you saw.
>>
>> For the above three messages, the first one just gets detected as an
>> invalid date and archived under the current date by the current bin/arch.
>>
>> The other two throw "ValueError: year out of range" at
>>
>>   File "/var/MM/21/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 984, in
>> dateToVolName
>>     return time.strftime("%Y-%B",datetuple)
>>
>> which is a problem, but not the one you saw. I would like to see
>> messages that cause this error
>>
>>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 601, in
>> _set_date
>>     self.fromdate = time.ctime(int(self.date))
>> ValueError: timestamp out of range for platform time_t
>>
>> that you reported. Can you find those bad messages in the .mbox input
>> file you used and send them to me?
> 
> We played around and found that the error is related to our version of
> Python. Here's a minimal test script that shows the issue:
> 
> from email.Utils import parseaddr, parsedate_tz, mktime_tz, formatdate
> print mktime_tz(parsedate_tz("Fri, 4 Feb 100 00:51:42 +0100 (MET)"));
> 
> That's the Date header from the single piece of legitimate mail. Python
> 2.4 throws the same exception you were seeing: "ValueError: year out of
> range". However, our Python 2.7 (which we use for Mailman) does this:
> 
> -59008522098
> 
> When that value is then passed to time.ctime(), you get "ValueError:
> timestamp out of range for platform time_t". We're on RHEL 5, and our
> version of Python 2.7 is from the IUSCommunity repo:
> python27-2.7.10-1.ius.el5. Which version of Python were you using?


The particular system on which I'm testing is Ubuntu 15.10 and has
python2.7 2.7.10-4ubuntu installed via apt-get. It produces the same

-59008522098

result from your test script, but when I run bin/arch --wipe, I get

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "../../../bin/arch", line 201, in <module>
    main()
  File "../../../bin/arch", line 189, in main
    archiver.processUnixMailbox(fp, start, end)
  File "/var/MM/21/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 586, in
processUnixMailbox
    self.add_article(a)
  File "/var/MM/21/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 611, in add_article
    archives = self.get_archives(article)
  File "/var/MM/21/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 914, in get_archives
    res = self.dateToVolName(float(article.date))
  File "/var/MM/21/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 984, in
dateToVolName
    return time.strftime("%Y-%B",datetuple)
ValueError: year out of range

I notice a few things here. First, your error comes in processing

    a = self._makeArticle(m, self.sequence)

called from pipermail.processUnixMailbox

Mine comes from

    self.add_article(a)

which is called after _makeArticle has already made the article, so I
don't see an exception in _makeArticle. In fact, after running
_makeArticle, I see

>>> a.fromdate
'Wed Feb  3 15:58:44 100\n'

which is exactly what is returned by time.ctime(-59008522098)

The other curious thing is there are no differences between the 2.1.18
pipermail.py and mine yet your

    a = self._makeArticle(m, self.sequence)

is at line 587 in your traceback, and in my pipermail.py it is at line 584.

In any case, The Date: that threw the original ValueError: timestamp out
of range for platform time_t is apparently not the "Fri, 4 Feb 100
00:51:42 +0100 (MET)" one, and I'd still like to see it. If you can find
all four messages in the .mbox file that produced the "Kein Betreff"
messages in the current archive, I'd like to see them.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar  9 18:15:20 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 15:15:20 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Patch for HyperArch
In-Reply-To: <933C8B0A3D86051EA3F2495E@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
References: <8580C5DC2EE8E37F372FE68B@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DE0243.1090009@msapiro.net>
 <51E3568656CA930D61E243FC@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DF638F.30203@msapiro.net>
 <933C8B0A3D86051EA3F2495E@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
Message-ID: <56E0AE88.6030801@msapiro.net>

> 
> We played around and found that the error is related to our version of
> Python. Here's a minimal test script that shows the issue:
> 
> from email.Utils import parseaddr, parsedate_tz, mktime_tz, formatdate
> print mktime_tz(parsedate_tz("Fri, 4 Feb 100 00:51:42 +0100 (MET)"));
> 
> That's the Date header from the single piece of legitimate mail. Python
> 2.4 throws the same exception you were seeing: "ValueError: year out of
> range". However, our Python 2.7 (which we use for Mailman) does this:
> 
> -59008522098
> 
> When that value is then passed to time.ctime(), you get "ValueError:
> timestamp out of range for platform time_t". We're on RHEL 5, and our
> version of Python 2.7 is from the IUSCommunity repo:
> python27-2.7.10-1.ius.el5. Which version of Python were you using?


Thinking about this a bit more, I think what you say is the crux of the
difference between yours and mine. In your Python,
time.ctime(-59008522098) throws the ValueError, and in mine it returns a
date string which may cause problems later on in the processing.

I think the difference is not with a Python version per se, but rather
with the underlying C environment and C library 'time' functions that
Python was compiled with.

In any case, I think I now have enough understanding of the issue to
work up some kind of fix that will work in both your situation and mine.

Note that your original suggested patch won't solve the problem for me
because my time.ctime(-59008522098) does not throw a ValueError.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From simon.hanna at serve-me.info  Wed Mar  9 19:02:24 2016
From: simon.hanna at serve-me.info (Simon Hanna)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 01:02:24 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Guides for contributing to mailman
Message-ID: <56E0B990.4090602@serve-me.info>

Hi,

I took the liberty of updating a couple of pages on the wiki. Noticeable additions are the following
two pages:

http://wiki.list.org/DEV/HowToContributeGit

which is intended to be a howto regarding git. It should cover the basics by giving example
executions of commands. Real documentation and tutorials can be found easily on the web. This is
also the place for code of conduct regarding gitlab commits/issues/merge requests.


http://wiki.list.org/DEV/SetupDevEnvironment

This are brief setup instructions for the mailman packages. It is not supposed to be complete or
explain anything in details. readthedocs.org is a much better place for such information.


I kindly request you to read through it and help improve it. I placed links on the top of the dev
homepage http://wiki.list.org/DEV/Home

It would be helpful if all "newcomers" are directed to these two pages when they ask questions about
setting up. Feel free to add to the pages when you think more information is necessary of if people
turn out to need more help with how to do stuff in git/gitlab

Simon

From barry at list.org  Wed Mar  9 20:40:15 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 20:40:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Guides for contributing to mailman
In-Reply-To: <56E0B990.4090602@serve-me.info>
References: <56E0B990.4090602@serve-me.info>
Message-ID: <20160309204015.5bec225b@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 10, 2016, at 01:02 AM, Simon Hanna wrote:

>I took the liberty of updating a couple of pages on the wiki.

Thanks!  I did a very quick pass through both pages.

Cheers,
-Barry

From barry at list.org  Wed Mar  9 20:55:53 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 20:55:53 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Discussion On Project Idea "Preset List
 Settings Templates" .
In-Reply-To: <CAGV4MTFzbP_zkxPwOwnv6JVzzDgup4ETY7Kp1ZfZp_mg=QXnYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGV4MTHxaZiG83-G9bf3S16LBpdxLqi2WygYpBjSivu0He4-yQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <569BF632.3010906@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTG1Zyn9k0eN=_5Jz3E=AodHmhkEx435Hi3xores46sarw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22184.4775.708220.823578@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAGV4MTFnaZEztXL2432KNNMBiyUgdOBvJ+ww_GvQJEvKxdVKfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56AD3D56.6020208@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTFukWFiHQNT+YBbT0bzL1UFEp8uKdFYOP=Vcuk45ii3_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BB9AF0.6010701@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTFzbP_zkxPwOwnv6JVzzDgup4ETY7Kp1ZfZp_mg=QXnYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160309205553.7699efce@subdivisions.wooz.org>

Thanks for following up here Harshit.  Here are some of my thoughts/ramblings.

On Mar 09, 2016, at 10:51 PM, Harshit Bansal wrote:

>I think the "Permissions Systems" would have nothing to do with the
>core. It would be related to Postorius. We will have to create a style
>model separately in Postorius which would store the style name and the
>user who created it. Then only the user who has created the style
>would be granted the permission to edit it.

Mailing lists have a clear ownership chain.

At the top is the system administrator who has access to the shell.  They get
to do things no one else can, such as create Python files.  Ultimately, they
should be able to create immutable styles which serve as the baseline for all
other style options.  These are immutable because they are defined in Python
code.

The sysadmin can delegate style customizations to the server/site owner, which
is a defined role in the core's model.  The IUser interface defines a flag
`is_server_owner` to define this permission.

The server owners can delegate to domain owners.  The IDomain interface has a
`owners` attribute which can contain users that have this permission.

Domain owners can then delegate to list owners, and of course there is an
`owners` attribute on the IMailingList interface.  Mailing lists also have
moderators but those users wouldn't have permission to change list styles.

Here's where it gets complicated.  At each level, it should be possible to say
"I delegate settings X, Y, and Z to the level below and they can change it to
anything they want."  But they should also be able to say, "I do not allow the
level below to change settings A, B, and C."  For example, a domain owner
might say, "you list owners can change your welcome messages to anything you
want, but you cannot change the footers because for legal reasons this text
must appear on every message."

So you have several things you want to be able to specify about each attribute
in a style.  You want to be able to delegate permission to change a style
attribute going down the hierarchy, but you also want to be able to have any
particular style attribute delegate its value up the hierarchy.  E.g. a list
owners could say "I don't really care about the filter_types, just use
whatever is in the parent style."

It's likely that the permissions would only be enforced in Postorius, although
we can think about how the core would enforce the permissions.  The core would
definitely support the deferring of style values back up to parent styles.

One other thing to think about is whether some styles will be allowed or
disallowed for various domains or mailing lists.  E.g. should some styles only
be allowed for example.com and others for example.org, or can all of them be
allowed for any mailing list on the system?  I think at the very least, some
segregation based on domain would be useful.

Cheers,
-Barry
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From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Mar  9 21:02:28 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 11:02:28 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Discussion On Project Idea "Preset List
 Settings Templates" .
In-Reply-To: <CAGV4MTFzbP_zkxPwOwnv6JVzzDgup4ETY7Kp1ZfZp_mg=QXnYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGV4MTHxaZiG83-G9bf3S16LBpdxLqi2WygYpBjSivu0He4-yQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <569BF632.3010906@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTG1Zyn9k0eN=_5Jz3E=AodHmhkEx435Hi3xores46sarw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22184.4775.708220.823578@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAGV4MTFnaZEztXL2432KNNMBiyUgdOBvJ+ww_GvQJEvKxdVKfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56AD3D56.6020208@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTFukWFiHQNT+YBbT0bzL1UFEp8uKdFYOP=Vcuk45ii3_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BB9AF0.6010701@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTFzbP_zkxPwOwnv6JVzzDgup4ETY7Kp1ZfZp_mg=QXnYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22240.54708.702905.235432@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Harshit Bansal writes:

 > I think the "Permissions Systems" would have nothing to do with the
 > core. It would be related to Postorius. We will have to create a style
 > model separately in Postorius which would store the style name and the
 > user who created it. Then only the user who has created the style
 > would be granted the permission to edit it.

Then there is no *permissions* system!  For example, one project last
year created a Javascript client -- that would completely bypass the
"permissions" system as you describe it.  You could imagine that style
changes are a "friendly users" feature, and so the "style owner"
system would be a *safety* feature of the Postorius UI rather than an
*authorization* feature of styles.  But in an enterprise context (eg,
a virtual hosting service), I'm sure that users will think of it as an
authorization system.  While at present it seems unlikely that there
would be multiple interfaces on one hosting service, you never know
what users will do[1].  Also, it would not be obvious to somebody who
installed the node.js Mailman client that they are likely bypassing
"security" as documented in the typical Mailman manuals and tutorials
that you would find on the web.

 > From UI point of view, there is one more feature that comes to my mind:
 > When the users are presented with an interface to customize the style,
 > we could provide them with two views, one 'simple' and another
 > 'advanced'. The 'simple' one would show only the *frequently* (or most
 > commonly) changed attributes while the 'advanced' one will show all
 > the attributes. This will help them in customizing the styles.
 > I would like to hear some of your comments on it as well.

Doing this well is a hard problem.  It seems to me that it is likely
that the "frequently changed attributes" will differ depending on the
base style.  Also, there's a "self-fulfilling prophecy" aspect: the
attributes that don't make it to the "simple" view will be less
discoverable, and of course they will be less frequently tweaked.

How about a "pluggable" page?  Ie, where site or domain admins can set
a list of items, which can be either a string (explanatory comment) or
a widget (a UI object permitting customization of one attribute or
perhaps a container for customizing several related attributes).  I
suspect you'll find that the current pages are already factored so
that it won't be too hard to accomplish this.  Of course we would
provide some initial lists that we think are good.

I think the time has come to think about adding feedback on our UI to
the UI.  Of course we won't do it behind the admin's back, nor default
it on, and we would allow admins to configure the information to be
sent.  But I think our user base would be pretty enthusiastic about
contributing things like customized UIs and list styles.

Footnotes:
[1] The Harvard Law: Under the most rigorously controlled conditions
of pressure, temperature, volume, humidity, and other variables,
the organism will do as it damn well pleases.
http://scienceblogs.com/clock/2007/05/15/and-now-the-scientists-will-do/
I think I've seen this attached to a person's name, and it would have
been in the early '70s, so predating the Usenet post.

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Mar  9 23:19:58 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:19:58 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Discussion On Project Idea "Preset List
 Settings Templates" .
In-Reply-To: <20160309205553.7699efce@subdivisions.wooz.org>
References: <CAGV4MTHxaZiG83-G9bf3S16LBpdxLqi2WygYpBjSivu0He4-yQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <569BF632.3010906@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTG1Zyn9k0eN=_5Jz3E=AodHmhkEx435Hi3xores46sarw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22184.4775.708220.823578@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAGV4MTFnaZEztXL2432KNNMBiyUgdOBvJ+ww_GvQJEvKxdVKfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56AD3D56.6020208@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTFukWFiHQNT+YBbT0bzL1UFEp8uKdFYOP=Vcuk45ii3_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BB9AF0.6010701@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTFzbP_zkxPwOwnv6JVzzDgup4ETY7Kp1ZfZp_mg=QXnYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160309205553.7699efce@subdivisions.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <22240.62958.448991.400791@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Barry Warsaw writes:

 > It's likely that the permissions would only be enforced in
 > Postorius, although we can think about how the core would enforce
 > the permissions.

I don't insist on core enforcement, though I think it desirable.  I do
ask that this functionality not be called "permission" if core doesn't
enforce it.  (Details in earlier reply to Harshit.)

 > One other thing to think about is whether some styles will be
 > allowed or disallowed for various domains or mailing lists.

I think this would be very convenient, but could be handled purely as
visibility control (after all, you can reconstruct any style attribute
by attribute unless prohibited in mm_cfg.py, but that's instance-wide
anyway).  Eg, a dotted name would be used as a str.endswidth filter,
and the convention would be to name styles according to List-Id, with
multiple styles or versions being "subdomains" of List-Id.  The
domains example.net (season to taste) and distribution.list.org would
be special, corresponding to anonymous styles and the GNU Mailman
distribution, respectively.  So typical names of styles would be

    xemacs-beta.xemacs.org = style used for xemacs-beta at xemacs.org
    v2.honeypot.xemacs.org = rev 2 of style used for honeypot at xemacs.org
    spam-fierce.example.net = a style containing spam filter
        configuration, but the admin doesn't want the name to give
        away which lists use it
    anonymous.distribution.list.org = Mark's recommendation for
        anonymous list configuration
    announce.distribution.list.org = Mark's recommendation for
        anouncement list configuration

and typical filters would be

    .xemacs.org
    .example.net
    .distribution.list.org

with the default being empty.  Both style naming UI and available
style lists could suppress the filter, and the convention would make
it easy to copy a list's style.

The special treatment of example.net is pretty clearly
over-engineering, but the information leakage that motivates it
represents the only reason I can think of for worrying about
availability of styles.

Since endswidth would be used to filter, you wouldn't have to break at
dots, but I think that would be intuitive to users.

The whole scheme is probably over-engineered, but maybe somebody can
bend it into something that's not too horrible. :-)  The main
advantage to it is that each list would implicitly name its own
configuration.  You would only need to explicitly choose a name when
you want something more generally descriptive, but hopefully most
generic styles will be in the Mailman distribution.

 > I think at the very least, some segregation based on domain would
 > be useful.

I do agree with that.

Steve

From Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de  Thu Mar 10 06:19:58 2016
From: Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de (Sebastian Hagedorn)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 12:19:58 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Patch for HyperArch
In-Reply-To: <56E0AE88.6030801@msapiro.net>
References: <8580C5DC2EE8E37F372FE68B@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DE0243.1090009@msapiro.net>
 <51E3568656CA930D61E243FC@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DF638F.30203@msapiro.net>
 <933C8B0A3D86051EA3F2495E@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E0AE88.6030801@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <71B0D669E139F5C87F8FB7F2@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>

--On 9. M?rz 2016 um 15:15:20 -0800 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

>> We played around and found that the error is related to our version of
>> Python. Here's a minimal test script that shows the issue:
>>
>> from email.Utils import parseaddr, parsedate_tz, mktime_tz, formatdate
>> print mktime_tz(parsedate_tz("Fri, 4 Feb 100 00:51:42 +0100 (MET)"));
>>
>> That's the Date header from the single piece of legitimate mail. Python
>> 2.4 throws the same exception you were seeing: "ValueError: year out of
>> range". However, our Python 2.7 (which we use for Mailman) does this:
>>
>> -59008522098
>>
>> When that value is then passed to time.ctime(), you get "ValueError:
>> timestamp out of range for platform time_t". We're on RHEL 5, and our
>> version of Python 2.7 is from the IUSCommunity repo:
>> python27-2.7.10-1.ius.el5. Which version of Python were you using?
>
>
> Thinking about this a bit more, I think what you say is the crux of the
> difference between yours and mine. In your Python,
> time.ctime(-59008522098) throws the ValueError, and in mine it returns a
> date string which may cause problems later on in the processing.
>
> I think the difference is not with a Python version per se, but rather
> with the underlying C environment and C library 'time' functions that
> Python was compiled with.

That makes sense.

> In any case, I think I now have enough understanding of the issue to
> work up some kind of fix that will work in both your situation and mine.
>
> Note that your original suggested patch won't solve the problem for me
> because my time.ctime(-59008522098) does not throw a ValueError.

Right. Of course I didn't know that at the time :-)

Unless you're really interested in the other differences you referred to in 
your other message, I won't bother to analyze them further. It seems clear 
to me that you have identified the main issue.

Thanks for your help!
-- 
    .:.Sebastian Hagedorn - Weyertal 121 (Geb?ude 133), Zimmer 2.02.:.
                 .:.Regionales Rechenzentrum (RRZK).:.
   .:.Universit?t zu K?ln / Cologne University - ? +49-221-470-89578.:.

From daman.4880 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 10 10:18:23 2016
From: daman.4880 at gmail.com (Daman Singh)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 20:48:23 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Help regarding an error during installation
Message-ID: <CA+9hymUZd7=zY+jHaXsa6n899YORB8+0YbkCipYSqEY4ot0BTg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone!

I am trying to install mailman for development using mailman-bundler. I
followed  the instructions given here
http://mailman-bundler.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ , but i am facing a
problem.
When i run buildout command i get an error saying,"no module named 'zlib'"
but on running ipython, when i import zlib it works all right.
I am using a virtualenvironment. Basically module named zlib is already
installed but "buildout" command is still giving me error.
Anyone having its fix kindly provide me its fix

Best
Daman

From simon.hanna at serve-me.info  Thu Mar 10 11:00:07 2016
From: simon.hanna at serve-me.info (Simon Hanna)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 17:00:07 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Help regarding an error during installation
In-Reply-To: <CA+9hymUZd7=zY+jHaXsa6n899YORB8+0YbkCipYSqEY4ot0BTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9hymUZd7=zY+jHaXsa6n899YORB8+0YbkCipYSqEY4ot0BTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56E19A07.3040600@serve-me.info>

On 03/10/2016 04:18 PM, Daman Singh wrote:
> Hello everyone!
> 
> I am trying to install mailman for development using mailman-bundler. I
> followed  the instructions given here
> http://mailman-bundler.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ , but i am facing a
> problem.
> When i run buildout command i get an error saying,"no module named 'zlib'"
> but on running ipython, when i import zlib it works all right.
> I am using a virtualenvironment. Basically module named zlib is already
> installed but "buildout" command is still giving me error.
> Anyone having its fix kindly provide me its fix
I'm unaware of any dependency on zlib. If you want to install mailman for development please refer
to this wiki page

http://wiki.list.org/DEV/SetupDevEnvironment


From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 10 12:29:04 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 22:59:04 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Basic workflow of the ARC implementation
In-Reply-To: <22236.10180.832824.471865@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAAQRvQLDcHfLiR3r5Z6T21OAhHXE+sWFU7MZ+vipn06j9O96vw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22236.10180.832824.471865@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQLASR3v5gvfu+CYcjTST02+PG9dQmXzXgwF8tmW=xa6gQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Steve!


> This should be trivial to do with the Python email package, too.  I
> don't really see that a separate module would be useful, since we'll
> want to extract a fixed set of headers (ARC- and DKIM-specified).  Of
> course it should be factored into a separate function (or perhaps a
> generic "extract_fields" function and a couple of derivatives with the
> DKIM list (just DKIM-Signature?) and the ARC list (ARC-Seal,
> ARC-Authentication-Results, and ARC-Message-Signature).
>
>
Depending on the message, if it has previous Authentication Results added
as a header, that can be extracted too.  The entire message can be parsed,
and then all the possible headers involved in the authentication process,
ie. DKIM signature, Authentication results, ARC headers,  can be
 extracted. If not found, a suitable flag can be set for them. ie. example
- if no previous arc headers were found, a flag can be set. This can later
be used in deciding the flow of the mail such as the "i" tag value, whether
we need to perform ARC authentication for the previous ARC headers, and
other fields that depend on the occurrences of any previous ARC set.

    Another factoring issue: should you "import dkimpy" and call

> dkimpy.foo, or should you "from dkimpy import foo, bar, baz"?
> (Doesn't need to be settled for a while, and you can even try both at
> a small cost in time and effort.)
>
> From what I've read, I should use the `from ... import ...` when the no of
methods required from the package is less, around 3-4, the entire package
is not required and when naming conflicts are to be minded.
But yes, I can settle it later during the coding part :)

 >Isn't this inaccurate?  This "i" must *match* the Seal "i", no?

Yes, I meant the same thing. The "i" tag for all the three AAR, AMS and the
AS will be the same , and will be one higher than the previous instance of
the "i" tag. If no previous instance is there, it will be 1.

 > a,t,s,d: These can again be obtained from the dkimpy package.
>  >
>  > bh: The body hash. This can be obtained from the package. Here, we set
> the
>  > canonicalization to 'relaxed' and get the body hash.
>
> "The package" == dkimpy, right?
>
> Yes.


>  > 3. ARC Authentication Results.
>  > The "i" tag simply takes on the value same as the above "i" tags.
>  > Now from our previous conversation, as you suggested, the
>  > authenticity of the previous MTA who sent us the mail is not sure
>  > to be trusted. So in the case where we don't trust the previous
>  > MTA, we will have to perform our own DMARC, SPF, DKIM testing of
>  > the recieved mail. If previous ARC chain exists i.e. cv=V, then we
>  > perform the ARC test too.
>
> I'm not sure you understood me.  We *always* verify the preceding
> MTA's claims, even if we trust them, because of spoofing and
> man-in-the-middle attacks on the Internet itself.  (More precisely,
> verification is required by the I-D, and the rationale is spoofing and
> MITM.)  The MTA we "may or may not trust" is our *own* MTA.
>
>
Yes. So for every mail we receive, we always perform the authentication
tests for spf,dkim, dmarc (and arc if present).


> No.  The mail cannot be proved authentic by ARC, but that may be due
> to changes to the message at intervening hops.  There may be more
> sophisticated tests (eg, a PGP signature on a MIME body) that can
> prove it authentic.
>
>
Okay.! So we need to only include the ARC Headers and forward the message
to the subscribers, and
leave it upto their MTAs to do the needful.

 > Now coming to the testing part. There can be a number of tests like
>  > verifying the generated ARC signature, changing the body of the
>  > message, failing when the implicitly signed AMS headers are changed
>  > and other such tests.
>
> This is a little vague, but testing is hard.  You'll learn it as you
> go along.
>

I will come up with at least a few concrete tests that need to be performed
for each of the modules given below (in the milestones), and run them by
you once before the proposal.

>
> I count about 9 well-defined tasks in your message that could be made
> into good milestones.  You should try to come up with your own list,
> but if you're really not happy with your list, send it to me and ask
> for help and I'll give you my ideas.
>
>
I have come up with the following probable milestones for the project. -
(The project has been divided into milestones on the basis of the separate
modules that will be created. Each module is a milestone).
1. ARC Authentication Result - spf verification code completed. tests
passed. merge request created.
2. ARC Authentication Result - dkim verification code completed. tests
passed. merge request created.
3. ARC Authentication Result - dmarc verification code completed. tests
passed. merge request created.
4. ARC Authentication Result - arc verification code completed. tests
passed. merge request created.
5. ARC Authentication Result - generate AAR from the previous milestones
code. tests passed. merge request created.
6. ARC Message Signature code completed. tests passed. merge request
created.
7. ARC Seal code completed. tests passed. merge request created.
8. Generate the ARC set of headers from the previous milestones code, and
prepend them to the message.
tests passed. merge request created.

*As you mentioned, branch coverage will be the aim behind all the tests for
each module (Branch coverage would mean considering all possible scenarios
of the workflow).

Notes -

1. I've broken down the AAR set into different milestones, since each
method will require the use of different functions and packages. (ie. spf,
dkim, dmarc, arc).

2. Regarding milestone 8, separate modules will be responsible for
generating the components of the ARC header set, and these can be combined
at the end for getting the complete ARC set. This will be useful for
testing purposes.

3. We need to perform the dmarc testing manually since the gs.dmarc package
only provides the dmarc policy query functionality. The gs.dmarc package
can be used to query the dmarc record of the RFC5322.From domain. Then we
can verify using the aspf and adkim relaxed/strict tag values and the
spf/dkim results whether the dmarc authentication is a pass or fail, as
given in the RFC7489 draft (dmarc draft). Is there a better alternative to
this in your knowledge?

I would like your opinion on these milestones, and if possible your ideas
can be merged with these to come up with a better list :)

Thanks.

Aditya.

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 10 13:10:08 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 10:10:08 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Patch for HyperArch
In-Reply-To: <71B0D669E139F5C87F8FB7F2@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
References: <8580C5DC2EE8E37F372FE68B@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DE0243.1090009@msapiro.net>
 <51E3568656CA930D61E243FC@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DF638F.30203@msapiro.net>
 <933C8B0A3D86051EA3F2495E@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E0AE88.6030801@msapiro.net>
 <71B0D669E139F5C87F8FB7F2@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
Message-ID: <56E1B880.8060200@msapiro.net>

On 03/10/2016 03:19 AM, Sebastian Hagedorn wrote:
> 
> Unless you're really interested in the other differences you referred to
> in your other message, I won't bother to analyze them further. It seems
> clear to me that you have identified the main issue.


I understand the issue, and I know how to "fix" it.

I'm a bit uncertain about what to change a bad date to. Normally,
messages in the cumulative .mbox have at least three sources of date.
There is a Date: header, The mbox From_ separator line, and at least if
the message originally came via Mailman, an X-List-Received-Date: header
that was added by Mailman's ArchRunner when the message was archived.

Also, depending to an extent on site configuration, if the message was
originally archived by Mailman, it's archived Date: header will normally
be "close" to the time it was received by Mailman. See the code in the
_dispose() method in Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py.

So what this says is if a message in the mbox has a bad Date:, it is
probably from an imported mbox, and it's not clear that the From_ date
will be any better.

In the messages and excerpts you posted earlier, the From_ dates were
all within a few minutes of "Mon Nov  7 14:08:46 2005" which is probably
the time that portion of the mbox was built from a majordomo archive.

I have made a script at <https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/cleanarch2>
(mirrored at <http://fog.ccsf.edu/~msapiro/scripts/cleanarch2>) which
augments the standard bin/cleanarch script to also replace Date: headers
with the date from From_ if they differ by more than
mm_cfg.ARCHIVER_ALLOWABLE_SANE_DATE_SKEW (default = 15 days).

This may be sufficient. If you run it with the -n option against your
mbox, it will report the line #s of the bad dates, what they are and
what they would be changed to.

For the actual "fix", my inclination is to modify the _set_date method
in pipermail.py (this is called from Hyperarch.py as
self.__super_set_date(message) just before it does self.fromdate =
time.ctime(int(self.date)).

I would have this check the date and if it's not within say 50 years of
now, replace the date with something reasonable. My question at this
point is what's that something reasonable. I think it comes down to a
choice between the From_ date if that's reasonable or the current date,
but I don't know which is better.

Does anyone have an idea?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From waseem.tabraze at gmail.com  Thu Mar 10 06:09:59 2016
From: waseem.tabraze at gmail.com (Wasim Thabraze)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:39:59 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Interested in the GSoC idea
 'GitLab/development tools integration'
Message-ID: <CAE30-VQCR9rps-LZ8r-vdwF-GPOWhcdF95UQx52bw0CKT31cTQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

I am Wasim Thabraze, a Computer Science Undergraduate. I have thoroughly
gone through the GSoC ideas page and have narrowed down my choices to the
project 'GitLab/development tools integration'.

I have experience with GitLab, GitHub and also used their API's to build
stuff.

I have gone through the idea and got a rough idea about how the final
outcome of the tool should be.

I feel glad if someone can help me in getting started with this project.



I hope I can code with Mailman this summer, and I really appreciate your
comments.


Regards,
Wasim

https://github.com/waseem18

http://www.thabraze.me

From raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 10 15:32:44 2016
From: raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com (Abhilash Raj)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 12:32:44 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Help regarding an error during installation
In-Reply-To: <CA+9hymUZd7=zY+jHaXsa6n899YORB8+0YbkCipYSqEY4ot0BTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9hymUZd7=zY+jHaXsa6n899YORB8+0YbkCipYSqEY4ot0BTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56E1D9EC.6070402@gmail.com>

Hi Daman,

On 03/10/2016 07:18 AM, Daman Singh wrote:
> Hello everyone!
> 
> I am trying to install mailman for development using mailman-bundler. I
> followed  the instructions given here
> http://mailman-bundler.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ , but i am facing a
> problem.
> When i run buildout command i get an error saying,"no module named 'zlib'"
> but on running ipython, when i import zlib it works all right.

When running buildout in mailman-bundler, it generally creates a
virtualenv of its own, which might not have 'zlib not installed in it.
Just look for the virtualenv that gives this error(it could be venv-3.4,
that bundler makes for running mailman in), activate that, and install
'zlib in there.

I am not sure where is this error coming from, but for general python
projects, this is a general solution.


-- 
thanks,
Abhilash Raj

From raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 10 15:44:10 2016
From: raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com (Abhilash Raj)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 12:44:10 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Interested in the GSoC idea
 'GitLab/development tools integration'
In-Reply-To: <CAE30-VQCR9rps-LZ8r-vdwF-GPOWhcdF95UQx52bw0CKT31cTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE30-VQCR9rps-LZ8r-vdwF-GPOWhcdF95UQx52bw0CKT31cTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56E1DC9A.4070106@gmail.com>

Hi Wasim,

On 03/10/2016 03:09 AM, Wasim Thabraze wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I am Wasim Thabraze, a Computer Science Undergraduate. I have thoroughly
> gone through the GSoC ideas page and have narrowed down my choices to the
> project 'GitLab/development tools integration'.
> 
> I have experience with GitLab, GitHub and also used their API's to build
> stuff.
> 
> I have gone through the idea and got a rough idea about how the final
> outcome of the tool should be.
> 
> I feel glad if someone can help me in getting started with this project.

If you can outline how and what would the integration exactly mean, I
(or anyone else) would be able to comment and help you more. You can
layout rough ideas here too, doesn't have be anything concrete right now.

Apart from this channel, You can also chat with the mentors on IRC, we
are on and off IRC throughout the day on #mailman.

Also, please note that you need to solve atleast one issue as a part of
the application process for GSoC.

-- 
thanks,
Abhilash Raj

From domdambrogia at gmail.com  Thu Mar 10 15:54:08 2016
From: domdambrogia at gmail.com (Dominic Dambrogia)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 12:54:08 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] List Passwords via Mailman REST api
Message-ID: <CACG2BgLyAKS4chKGYdC1T_9WCXbHyuqVdXn+JfmoaHaEkBVwMg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, my name is Dominic. I'm on the final steps of finishing my Mailman
mailing list server. The last problem I'm having is moderating emails.
Everything for mailman on my application is written in a PHP wrapper class
built around your REST api. Currently, we have no passwords set for lists,
so when we reply to our moderation requests for nonmembers posting to
mailing lists with "Approved: " or "Approved:", our moderation actions are
failing. I've been living in your pythonhosted documentation as of recently
and have yet to find anything about setting passwords for lists via the
REST api. If you can point me towards how to set passwords via the REST api
or a hint of why I'm failing to moderate emails I would truthfully
appreciate it.
Thank you,

From barry at list.org  Thu Mar 10 18:39:00 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 18:39:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] List Passwords via Mailman REST api
In-Reply-To: <CACG2BgLyAKS4chKGYdC1T_9WCXbHyuqVdXn+JfmoaHaEkBVwMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACG2BgLyAKS4chKGYdC1T_9WCXbHyuqVdXn+JfmoaHaEkBVwMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160310183900.26d8e336@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 10, 2016, at 12:54 PM, Dominic Dambrogia wrote:

>If you can point me towards how to set passwords via the REST api or a hint
>of why I'm failing to moderate emails I would truthfully appreciate it.

Hi Dominic,

Currently the moderator_password can't be set via REST.  You would have to do
it from the mailman shell.

It's probably an easy addition, and I wouldn't be opposed, but there's the
open question as to whether the moderator password is a good idea in the long
term.  But, since that's the way it currently works, it probably makes sense
to allow setting it via REST.

Cheers,
-Barry

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 10 20:00:18 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 17:00:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Patch for HyperArch
In-Reply-To: <56E1B880.8060200@msapiro.net>
References: <8580C5DC2EE8E37F372FE68B@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DE0243.1090009@msapiro.net>
 <51E3568656CA930D61E243FC@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DF638F.30203@msapiro.net>
 <933C8B0A3D86051EA3F2495E@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E0AE88.6030801@msapiro.net>
 <71B0D669E139F5C87F8FB7F2@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E1B880.8060200@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56E218A2.8080702@msapiro.net>

On 03/10/2016 10:10 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> For the actual "fix", my inclination is to modify the _set_date method
> in pipermail.py (this is called from Hyperarch.py as
> self.__super_set_date(message) just before it does self.fromdate =
> time.ctime(int(self.date)).
> 
> I would have this check the date and if it's not within say 50 years of
> now, replace the date with something reasonable. My question at this
> point is what's that something reasonable. I think it comes down to a
> choice between the From_ date if that's reasonable or the current date,
> but I don't know which is better.


I have reported this bug and fixed it. The bug is
<https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1555798> and the fix is
<http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/revision/1633>

The fix looks at message timestamps in the following order:

The Date: header if any
An X-List-Received-Date header if any
The last Received: header if any
The Unix From_ line

The first parseable date which is in the current epoch (>= 1970) and not
more than mm_cfg.ARCHIVER_ALLOWABLE_SANE_DATE_SKEW (default 15 days) in
the future is accepted. If none of those produce an acceptable date, the
current time is used.

This differs from past behavior by the addition of range checks on the
date and the addition of Received: and Unix From_ date checks.

The Received: header check is important. For an "imported" mbox, the
From_ separators may reflect when the mbox was exported from it's source
rather than the message date. If the messages have Received: headers,
the later ones at least tend to have good dates.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From waseem.tabraze at gmail.com  Fri Mar 11 04:54:29 2016
From: waseem.tabraze at gmail.com (Wasim Thabraze)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 15:24:29 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Interested in the GSoC idea
 'GitLab/development tools integration'
In-Reply-To: <56E1DC9A.4070106@gmail.com>
References: <CAE30-VQCR9rps-LZ8r-vdwF-GPOWhcdF95UQx52bw0CKT31cTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56E1DC9A.4070106@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE30-VRT4H9PAmV3KRgbWwO2jUS0c2aEkZ-PRYhS9AKTaAFb7A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Abhilash,

So the tool can be anything like web based thing, a module or a plugin?! Am
I thinking wrong?

Before I can propose a way, I need your help in knowing more about the
project.

1. Can anyone use it or only the admin?
2. The input to the tool is a thread from a mailing list. But how does the
tool actually take a thread from a mailing list? Hyperkitty?
3. Are there any such tools in the software world that are more or less
doing similar work? (This query would help me in getting a clear cut idea
of the project.)


Can you please give more information about the query #2?! Or can point me
to any links that would help me in getting a brief idea.

Forgive me if I sound too naive. The thing is I'm actually more interested
in this project.

Thank You


Regards,
Wasim

From simon.hanna at serve-me.info  Fri Mar 11 08:35:25 2016
From: simon.hanna at serve-me.info (Simon Hanna)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 14:35:25 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Interested in the GSoC idea
 'GitLab/development tools integration'
In-Reply-To: <CAE30-VRT4H9PAmV3KRgbWwO2jUS0c2aEkZ-PRYhS9AKTaAFb7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE30-VQCR9rps-LZ8r-vdwF-GPOWhcdF95UQx52bw0CKT31cTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56E1DC9A.4070106@gmail.com>
 <CAE30-VRT4H9PAmV3KRgbWwO2jUS0c2aEkZ-PRYhS9AKTaAFb7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56E2C99D.8040306@serve-me.info>

On 03/11/2016 10:54 AM, Wasim Thabraze wrote:
> Hi Abhilash,
> 
> So the tool can be anything like web based thing, a module or a plugin?! Am
> I thinking wrong?
> 
> Before I can propose a way, I need your help in knowing more about the
> project.
> 
> 1. Can anyone use it or only the admin?
I guess a good choice would be moderators or owners.
> 2. The input to the tool is a thread from a mailing list. But how does the
> tool actually take a thread from a mailing list? Hyperkitty?
I guess Hyperkitty is a good place to put it in. The core functionality will (should) probably be
reusable anyway.
> 3. Are there any such tools in the software world that are more or less
> doing similar work? (This query would help me in getting a clear cut idea
> of the project.)
You will have to use gitlab/hub apis. There should be python libraries to do that. There are some
projects that create github issues out of email. Not sure if they are open source though...
> 
> 
> Can you please give more information about the query #2?! Or can point me
> to any links that would help me in getting a brief idea.
In the end it really depends on what you want to do...


From Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de  Fri Mar 11 09:39:42 2016
From: Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de (Sebastian Hagedorn)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 15:39:42 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Patch for HyperArch
In-Reply-To: <56E218A2.8080702@msapiro.net>
References: <8580C5DC2EE8E37F372FE68B@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DE0243.1090009@msapiro.net>
 <51E3568656CA930D61E243FC@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DF638F.30203@msapiro.net>
 <933C8B0A3D86051EA3F2495E@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E0AE88.6030801@msapiro.net>
 <71B0D669E139F5C87F8FB7F2@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E1B880.8060200@msapiro.net> <56E218A2.8080702@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <9A86329594507549F272138F@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>

--On 10. M?rz 2016 um 17:00:18 -0800 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> I have reported this bug and fixed it. The bug is
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1555798> and the fix is
> <http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/revision/1633>
>
> The fix looks at message timestamps in the following order:
>
> The Date: header if any
> An X-List-Received-Date header if any
> The last Received: header if any
> The Unix From_ line
>
> The first parseable date which is in the current epoch (>= 1970) and not
> more than mm_cfg.ARCHIVER_ALLOWABLE_SANE_DATE_SKEW (default 15 days) in
> the future is accepted. If none of those produce an acceptable date, the
> current time is used.
>
> This differs from past behavior by the addition of range checks on the
> date and the addition of Received: and Unix From_ date checks.
>
> The Received: header check is important. For an "imported" mbox, the
> From_ separators may reflect when the mbox was exported from it's source
> rather than the message date. If the messages have Received: headers,
> the later ones at least tend to have good dates.

Thanks. I applied the patch and tried ro re-archive the list in question. 
Now I get this:

Schreibe Archivzustand in Datei 
/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/linux-users/pipermail.pck
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./bin/arch", line 201, in <module>
    main()
  File "./bin/arch", line 189, in main
    archiver.processUnixMailbox(fp, start, end)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 597, in 
processUnixMailbox
    a = self._makeArticle(m, self.sequence)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 688, in 
_makeArticle
    mlist=self.maillist)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 264, in 
__init__
    self.__super_init(message, sequence, keepHeaders)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 187, in 
__init__
    self._set_date(message)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 600, in 
_set_date
    self.__super_set_date(message)
  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 256, in 
_set_date
    message.get('received'), flags=re.S))
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/re.py", line 155, in sub
    return _compile(pattern, flags).sub(repl, string, count)
TypeError: expected string or buffer

For the time being, I have reverted the patch.
-- 
    .:.Sebastian Hagedorn - Weyertal 121 (Geb?ude 133), Zimmer 2.02.:.
                 .:.Regionales Rechenzentrum (RRZK).:.
   .:.Universit?t zu K?ln / Cologne University - ? +49-221-470-89578.:.

From devendra.y12 at lnmiit.ac.in  Fri Mar 11 08:52:08 2016
From: devendra.y12 at lnmiit.ac.in (Devendra Vyas)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 19:22:08 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] =?utf-8?q?Introduction_+_Interested_in_the_G?=
	=?utf-8?q?SoC_idea_=27Preset_list_settings_templates_=28aka_list_s?=
	=?utf-8?b?dHlsZXMp4oCLJyAoRGV2ZW5kcmEgVnlhcyk=?=
Message-ID: <CAKCFKBr80imkRCZuraToD=RJ+MWCSLDWDJ3cEobC_9kqswDaLQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi! All
Congratulations for getting selected in GSoC'16

I'm Devendra Vyas(@skat00sh), final year undergrad at The LNMIIT Jaipur.
I've been learning Django framework from past couple of months. I recently
worked upon this website: http://www.scholfin.com/- A Scholarship Search
Engine. Apart from it, currently working on my B.Tech project relating to
Tweet Analysis, using Python-SciKit. I've a fairly good background in
algorithms and data-structures, qualified for ACM-ICPC Regionals. I'm new
to open source contribution and recently started contributing to
GNU-Mailman(Postorius, as of now).

?I saw the ideas page and was interested in the project:Preset list
settings templates (aka list styles)?. As of now I've setup postorius and
mailman3. I wanted to ask, is there any warm-up task for the project? Also,
is it possible for the mentors to review the proposal before the actual
submission?

?Thanks and regards?
?Devendra?

-- 
It is not your qualifications but your exposure in life that makes you who
you are.
Devendra Vyas
Final Year,Comp. Science
B.tech , The LNMIIT
Jaipur(Raj.)
Ph no. (+91)9460053732

From harshitbansal2015 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 11 12:18:41 2016
From: harshitbansal2015 at gmail.com (Harshit Bansal)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 22:48:41 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Discussion On Project Idea "Preset List
 Settings Templates" .
In-Reply-To: <22240.62958.448991.400791@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAGV4MTHxaZiG83-G9bf3S16LBpdxLqi2WygYpBjSivu0He4-yQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <569BF632.3010906@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTG1Zyn9k0eN=_5Jz3E=AodHmhkEx435Hi3xores46sarw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22184.4775.708220.823578@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAGV4MTFnaZEztXL2432KNNMBiyUgdOBvJ+ww_GvQJEvKxdVKfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56AD3D56.6020208@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTFukWFiHQNT+YBbT0bzL1UFEp8uKdFYOP=Vcuk45ii3_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BB9AF0.6010701@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTFzbP_zkxPwOwnv6JVzzDgup4ETY7Kp1ZfZp_mg=QXnYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160309205553.7699efce@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22240.62958.448991.400791@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAGV4MTGwV2i2LQrazrpahomtFAc8+-ffmou2XJTZ7X2HPYcrLw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,
First of all, I would like to thank Barry and Steve for giving their
valuable comments due to which I have been able to workout the
"Permission model" from the very scratch, the details of which are as
follows:
Basically, a style will be having three levels of viewability:
1: System wide : A style having this level of viewability will be
visible to all the domains as well as the lists. It will be available
to all the list owners for copying however the site owners will have
the option to make it either read-only or editable.
2: Domain Wide : A style having this level of viewability will be
visible to all the lists within a specific domain. However, the domain
owners would have the option to make it read-only or editable.
3: List Specific : A style having this level of viewability will be
visible to a specific list.

Not only this, all stylable attributes will be divided into three categories:
1: Site owner level attributes : Only site owners will have the
permissions to edit these attributes.
2: Domain owner level : Site owners as well as domain owners can edit
these attributes.
3: List owner level : Site owners as well as domain owners as well as
list administrators will have the permissions to edit these
attributes.

Let us consider a domain example.com with a list test1 at example.com
with owner at example.com as site owner. Now, suppose the site
owner(owner at example.com) creates a style named 'foo'. Now the domain
owner of example.com will have two options, either he can edit(if the
style is editable) domain owner and list owner level attributes and
then can delegate to list owners or if the style is read-only then
they can copy the style to have a new style 'foo1', make necessary
changes and then delegate to the list owners. Now the list owners can
either apply 'foo' or foo1' or create their own customizations and
apply them.

@Steve I think this system also addresses the issues that you pointed
as now all the permissions will be enforced in the mailman core
instead of Postorius.


Also while working out the implementation details, I came across a new
problem which is as follows:
Suppose, we have three style A, B and C. B inherits from A and C
inherits from B. Now, suppose someone decides to delete style B then
how can we deal with this situation.

Further comments/suggestions are welcomed.


Thanks,
Harshit Bansal.

On 3/10/16, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:
> Barry Warsaw writes:
>
>  > It's likely that the permissions would only be enforced in
>  > Postorius, although we can think about how the core would enforce
>  > the permissions.
>
> I don't insist on core enforcement, though I think it desirable.  I do
> ask that this functionality not be called "permission" if core doesn't
> enforce it.  (Details in earlier reply to Harshit.)
>
>  > One other thing to think about is whether some styles will be
>  > allowed or disallowed for various domains or mailing lists.
>
> I think this would be very convenient, but could be handled purely as
> visibility control (after all, you can reconstruct any style attribute
> by attribute unless prohibited in mm_cfg.py, but that's instance-wide
> anyway).  Eg, a dotted name would be used as a str.endswidth filter,
> and the convention would be to name styles according to List-Id, with
> multiple styles or versions being "subdomains" of List-Id.  The
> domains example.net (season to taste) and distribution.list.org would
> be special, corresponding to anonymous styles and the GNU Mailman
> distribution, respectively.  So typical names of styles would be
>
>     xemacs-beta.xemacs.org = style used for xemacs-beta at xemacs.org
>     v2.honeypot.xemacs.org = rev 2 of style used for honeypot at xemacs.org
>     spam-fierce.example.net = a style containing spam filter
>         configuration, but the admin doesn't want the name to give
>         away which lists use it
>     anonymous.distribution.list.org = Mark's recommendation for
>         anonymous list configuration
>     announce.distribution.list.org = Mark's recommendation for
>         anouncement list configuration
>
> and typical filters would be
>
>     .xemacs.org
>     .example.net
>     .distribution.list.org
>
> with the default being empty.  Both style naming UI and available
> style lists could suppress the filter, and the convention would make
> it easy to copy a list's style.
>
> The special treatment of example.net is pretty clearly
> over-engineering, but the information leakage that motivates it
> represents the only reason I can think of for worrying about
> availability of styles.
>
> Since endswidth would be used to filter, you wouldn't have to break at
> dots, but I think that would be intuitive to users.
>
> The whole scheme is probably over-engineered, but maybe somebody can
> bend it into something that's not too horrible. :-)  The main
> advantage to it is that each list would implicitly name its own
> configuration.  You would only need to explicitly choose a name when
> you want something more generally descriptive, but hopefully most
> generic styles will be in the Mailman distribution.
>
>  > I think at the very least, some segregation based on domain would
>  > be useful.
>
> I do agree with that.
>
> Steve
>

From daman.4880 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 11 12:37:10 2016
From: daman.4880 at gmail.com (Daman Singh)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 23:07:10 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Help regarding an error during installation
In-Reply-To: <56E1D9EC.6070402@gmail.com>
References: <CA+9hymUZd7=zY+jHaXsa6n899YORB8+0YbkCipYSqEY4ot0BTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56E1D9EC.6070402@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9hymUtqCcpKTGhgLtLPyudw_ZeWAxabKOkQEuBTh=PqBdsiA@mail.gmail.com>

@Simon thanks for the help. I have successfully setup the dev environment.

@Abhilash I have checked it twice but no new virtualenv is created. I use
virtualenv for projects and have used one for this also, and zlib was
installed in that env. Moreover, i tried to install it on Ubuntu installed
in virtual machine, and it ran absolutely fine.

Best
Daman

On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 2:02 AM, Abhilash Raj <raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Daman,
>
> On 03/10/2016 07:18 AM, Daman Singh wrote:
> > Hello everyone!
> >
> > I am trying to install mailman for development using mailman-bundler. I
> > followed  the instructions given here
> > http://mailman-bundler.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ , but i am facing a
> > problem.
> > When i run buildout command i get an error saying,"no module named
> 'zlib'"
> > but on running ipython, when i import zlib it works all right.
>
> When running buildout in mailman-bundler, it generally creates a
> virtualenv of its own, which might not have 'zlib not installed in it.
> Just look for the virtualenv that gives this error(it could be venv-3.4,
> that bundler makes for running mailman in), activate that, and install
> 'zlib in there.
>
> I am not sure where is this error coming from, but for general python
> projects, this is a general solution.
>
>
> --
> thanks,
> Abhilash Raj
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 11 12:50:14 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 09:50:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Patch for HyperArch
In-Reply-To: <9A86329594507549F272138F@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
References: <8580C5DC2EE8E37F372FE68B@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DE0243.1090009@msapiro.net>
 <51E3568656CA930D61E243FC@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DF638F.30203@msapiro.net>
 <933C8B0A3D86051EA3F2495E@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E0AE88.6030801@msapiro.net>
 <71B0D669E139F5C87F8FB7F2@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E1B880.8060200@msapiro.net> <56E218A2.8080702@msapiro.net>
 <9A86329594507549F272138F@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
Message-ID: <56E30556.5050700@msapiro.net>

On 03/11/2016 06:39 AM, Sebastian Hagedorn wrote:
> --On 10. M?rz 2016 um 17:00:18 -0800 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> 
>> I have reported this bug and fixed it. The bug is
>> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1555798> and the fix is
>> <http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/revision/1633>
...
> 
> Thanks. I applied the patch and tried ro re-archive the list in
> question. Now I get this:
> 
> Schreibe Archivzustand in Datei
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/linux-users/pipermail.pck
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "./bin/arch", line 201, in <module>
>    main()
>  File "./bin/arch", line 189, in main
>    archiver.processUnixMailbox(fp, start, end)
>  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 597, in
> processUnixMailbox
>    a = self._makeArticle(m, self.sequence)
>  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 688, in
> _makeArticle
>    mlist=self.maillist)
>  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 264, in
> __init__
>    self.__super_init(message, sequence, keepHeaders)
>  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 187, in
> __init__
>    self._set_date(message)
>  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 600, in
> _set_date
>    self.__super_set_date(message)
>  File "/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 256, in
> _set_date
>    message.get('received'), flags=re.S))
>  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/re.py", line 155, in sub
>    return _compile(pattern, flags).sub(repl, string, count)
> TypeError: expected string or buffer
> 
> For the time being, I have reverted the patch.


Thanks for testing and thanks for the report.

I have fixed this and pushed rev 1634. The entire patch combining revs
1633 and 1644 is attached.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
-------------- next part --------------
=== modified file 'Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py'
--- Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py	2013-12-14 00:53:13 +0000
+++ Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py	2016-03-11 17:30:47 +0000
@@ -16,6 +16,7 @@
 VERSION = __version__
 CACHESIZE = 100    # Number of slots in the cache
 
+from Mailman import mm_cfg
 from Mailman import Errors
 from Mailman.Mailbox import ArchiverMailbox
 from Mailman.Logging.Syslog import syslog
@@ -230,21 +231,30 @@
         self.body = s.readlines()
 
     def _set_date(self, message):
-        def floatdate(header):
-            missing = []
-            datestr = message.get(header, missing)
-            if datestr is missing:
+        def floatdate(datestr):
+            if not datestr:
                 return None
             date = parsedate_tz(datestr)
             try:
-                return mktime_tz(date)
+                date = mktime_tz(date)
+                if (date < 0 or
+                    date - time.time() >
+                        mm_cfg.ARCHIVER_ALLOWABLE_SANE_DATE_SKEW
+                   ):
+                    return None
+                return date
             except (TypeError, ValueError, OverflowError):
                 return None
-        date = floatdate('date')
-        if date is None:
-            date = floatdate('x-list-received-date')
-        if date is None:
-            # What's left to try?
+        date = floatdate(message.get('date'))
+        if date is None:
+            date = floatdate(message.get('x-list-received-date'))
+        if date is None:
+            date = floatdate(re.sub(r'^.*;\s*', '',
+                                    message.get('received', ''), flags=re.S))
+        if date is None:
+            date = floatdate(re.sub(r'From \s*\S+\s+', '',
+                                    message.get_unixfrom() or '' ))
+        if date is None:
             date = self._last_article_time + 1
         self._last_article_time = date
         self.date = '%011i' % date


From Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de  Fri Mar 11 13:14:34 2016
From: Hagedorn at uni-koeln.de (Sebastian Hagedorn)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 19:14:34 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Patch for HyperArch
In-Reply-To: <56E30556.5050700@msapiro.net>
References: <8580C5DC2EE8E37F372FE68B@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DE0243.1090009@msapiro.net>
 <51E3568656CA930D61E243FC@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DF638F.30203@msapiro.net>
 <933C8B0A3D86051EA3F2495E@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E0AE88.6030801@msapiro.net>
 <71B0D669E139F5C87F8FB7F2@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E1B880.8060200@msapiro.net> <56E218A2.8080702@msapiro.net>
 <9A86329594507549F272138F@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E30556.5050700@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <EA6C07ABEB360B27E8883F62@Sebbis-iMac-4.local>

> I have fixed this and pushed rev 1634. The entire patch combining revs
> 1633 and 1644 is attached.

Thanks again. This time it ran through, and all mails with broken date 
headers are archived as expected: the ones with only the "From foo at bar" 
line have the date of the migration from Majordomo to Mailman, all others 
according to their received headers.

As far as I'm concerned, the problem is fixed. Thank you very much for all 
your help!
--
Sebastian Hagedorn - Weyertal 121, Zimmer 2.02
Regionales Rechenzentrum (RRZK)
Universit?t zu K?ln / Cologne University - Tel. +49-221-470-89578

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 11 13:26:08 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 10:26:08 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Patch for HyperArch
In-Reply-To: <EA6C07ABEB360B27E8883F62@Sebbis-iMac-4.local>
References: <8580C5DC2EE8E37F372FE68B@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DE0243.1090009@msapiro.net>
 <51E3568656CA930D61E243FC@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DF638F.30203@msapiro.net>
 <933C8B0A3D86051EA3F2495E@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E0AE88.6030801@msapiro.net>
 <71B0D669E139F5C87F8FB7F2@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E1B880.8060200@msapiro.net> <56E218A2.8080702@msapiro.net>
 <9A86329594507549F272138F@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E30556.5050700@msapiro.net> <EA6C07ABEB360B27E8883F62@Sebbis-iMac-4.local>
Message-ID: <56E30DC0.8030303@msapiro.net>

On 03/11/2016 10:14 AM, Sebastian Hagedorn wrote:
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, the problem is fixed. Thank you very much for
> all your help!


And thank you for reporting and testing.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 11 18:29:27 2016
From: raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com (Abhilash Raj)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 15:29:27 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] 
 =?utf-8?q?Introduction_+_Interested_in_the_?=
 =?utf-8?q?GSoC_idea_=27Preset_list_settings_templates_=28aka_list_styles?=
 =?utf-8?b?KeKAiycgKERldmVuZHJhIFZ5YXMp?=
In-Reply-To: <CAKCFKBr80imkRCZuraToD=RJ+MWCSLDWDJ3cEobC_9kqswDaLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKCFKBr80imkRCZuraToD=RJ+MWCSLDWDJ3cEobC_9kqswDaLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56E354D7.9000500@gmail.com>

Hi Devendra,

On 03/11/2016 05:52 AM, Devendra Vyas wrote:
> Hi! All
> Congratulations for getting selected in GSoC'16
> 
> I'm Devendra Vyas(@skat00sh), final year undergrad at The LNMIIT Jaipur.
> I've been learning Django framework from past couple of months. I recently
> worked upon this website: http://www.scholfin.com/- A Scholarship Search
> Engine. Apart from it, currently working on my B.Tech project relating to
> Tweet Analysis, using Python-SciKit. I've a fairly good background in
> algorithms and data-structures, qualified for ACM-ICPC Regionals. I'm new
> to open source contribution and recently started contributing to
> GNU-Mailman(Postorius, as of now).
>
> ?I saw the ideas page and was interested in the project:Preset list
> settings templates (aka list styles)?. As of now I've setup postorius and
> mailman3. I wanted to ask, is there any warm-up task for the project? Also,
> is it possible for the mentors to review the proposal before the actual
> submission?

There is no specific warmup task for any project, we just encourage you
to choose one issue from the issue tracker of the projects and solve
that. Also, you can follow up on the ongoing discussion of this project
with another interest student on -developers (this) list, it will give
you a very good idea about how to get started in this project.

I don't think it would be an issue you want reviews on your proposal
before the actual submission deadline.

> ?Thanks and regards?
> ?Devendra?
> 

-- 
thanks,
Abhilash Raj

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Mar 12 11:19:24 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 01:19:24 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Discussion On Project Idea "Preset List
 Settings Templates" .
In-Reply-To: <CAGV4MTGwV2i2LQrazrpahomtFAc8+-ffmou2XJTZ7X2HPYcrLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGV4MTHxaZiG83-G9bf3S16LBpdxLqi2WygYpBjSivu0He4-yQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <569BF632.3010906@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTG1Zyn9k0eN=_5Jz3E=AodHmhkEx435Hi3xores46sarw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22184.4775.708220.823578@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAGV4MTFnaZEztXL2432KNNMBiyUgdOBvJ+ww_GvQJEvKxdVKfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56AD3D56.6020208@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTFukWFiHQNT+YBbT0bzL1UFEp8uKdFYOP=Vcuk45ii3_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BB9AF0.6010701@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTFzbP_zkxPwOwnv6JVzzDgup4ETY7Kp1ZfZp_mg=QXnYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160309205553.7699efce@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22240.62958.448991.400791@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAGV4MTGwV2i2LQrazrpahomtFAc8+-ffmou2XJTZ7X2HPYcrLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22244.16780.167524.50549@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Harshit Bansal writes:

 > Basically, a style will be having three levels of viewability:
 > 1: System wide : A style having this level of viewability will be
 > visible to all the domains as well as the lists. It will be available
 > to all the list owners for copying however the site owners will have
 > the option to make it either read-only or editable.

I don't see a real advantage to having this editable by list owners,
since it's copyable.  On the other hand, "styles" are not just
display, but also include security/privacy features.  Eg, a rogue
editor could DoS the whole site by adding .* as a ban or discard
expression in spam filtering.  I think probably it's OK to have styles
editable only by owner.  However, the owner might be a group of users.

How about inheritability?  The difference between inheritance and
copying is that if the template changes, with inheritance the derived
configurations change too, with copying they don't.

 > 2: Domain Wide : A style having this level of viewability will be
 > visible to all the lists within a specific domain. However, the domain
 > owners would have the option to make it read-only or editable.

Same as above.

 > 3: List Specific : A style having this level of viewability will be
 > visible to a specific list.
 > 
 > Not only this, all stylable attributes will be divided into three categories:
 > 1: Site owner level attributes : Only site owners will have the
 > permissions to edit these attributes.

As above, "owner" should be allowed to be a group.

 > 2: Domain owner level : Site owners as well as domain owners can
 > edit these attributes.

Ditto.

 > 3: List owner level : Site owners as well as domain owners as well as
 > list administrators will have the permissions to edit these
 > attributes.

 > @Steve I think this system also addresses the issues that you pointed
 > as now all the permissions will be enforced in the mailman core
 > instead of Postorius.

Yes.

 > Also while working out the implementation details, I came across a new
 > problem which is as follows:
 > Suppose, we have three style A, B and C. B inherits from A and C
 > inherits from B. Now, suppose someone decides to delete style B then
 > how can we deal with this situation.

Persistence across Mailman restarts of course needs to be carefully
dealt with, but we deal with the basic issue in the usual Unix way: a
style which is "deleted" just loses its entry in the admin-visible
directory of styles, but it is not actually deleted from the database
until all references are gone.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Mar 12 11:21:52 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 01:21:52 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Help regarding an error during installation
In-Reply-To: <56E1D9EC.6070402@gmail.com>
References: <CA+9hymUZd7=zY+jHaXsa6n899YORB8+0YbkCipYSqEY4ot0BTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56E1D9EC.6070402@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22244.16928.27905.273905@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Abhilash Raj writes:
 > On 03/10/2016 07:18 AM, Daman Singh wrote:

 > > When i run buildout command i get an error saying,"no module
 > > named 'zlib'" but on running ipython, when i import zlib it works
 > > all right.
 > 
 > When running buildout in mailman-bundler, it generally creates a
 > virtualenv of its own, which might not have 'zlib not installed in
 > it.

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me, as zlib is in the stdlib, and
therefore should be installed if Python is.  Something weird is going
on here, such as crossing PYTHON_PATHs.

I'm beginning to agree with Simon: unless your project is to *fix
bundler*, developers should avoid bundler for now.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Mar 12 11:22:48 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 01:22:48 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Basic workflow of the ARC implementation
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQLASR3v5gvfu+CYcjTST02+PG9dQmXzXgwF8tmW=xa6gQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQLDcHfLiR3r5Z6T21OAhHXE+sWFU7MZ+vipn06j9O96vw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22236.10180.832824.471865@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQLASR3v5gvfu+CYcjTST02+PG9dQmXzXgwF8tmW=xa6gQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22244.16984.298509.789130@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Aditya Divekar writes:

 > Depending on the message, if it has previous Authentication Results added
 > as a header, that can be extracted too.  The entire message can be parsed,
 > and then all the possible headers involved in the authentication process,
 > ie. DKIM signature, Authentication results, ARC headers,  can be
 >  extracted. If not found, a suitable flag can be set for them. ie. example
 > - if no previous arc headers were found, a flag can be set. This can later
 > be used in deciding the flow of the mail such as the "i" tag value, whether
 > we need to perform ARC authentication for the previous ARC headers, and
 > other fields that depend on the occurrences of any previous ARC
 > set.

This is all already in the message or msg_data objects, except for the
value of "i" itself.  So I'm not sure what you're saying.  My point is
merely that any header field mentioned in any of the relevant RFCs
that can be validated must be validated to conform to ARC.

 > Okay.! So we need to only include the ARC Headers and forward the
 > message to the subscribers, and leave it upto their MTAs to do the
 > needful.

Yes.

 > I have come up with the following probable milestones for the
 > project. -

Looks good.  I have a couple of comments.

 > (The project has been divided into milestones on the basis of the separate
 > modules that will be created. Each module is a milestone).

I'm not sure you will need so many separate modules; each verification
depending on existing standard can probably be kept to a single
function, unless you can't get all relevant information from the
upstream modules.  But it doesn't hurt to separate them now, and think
about combining them later, if that's convenient for you.

 > 1. ARC Authentication Result - spf verification code completed. tests
 > passed. merge request created.
 > 2. ARC Authentication Result - dkim verification code completed. tests
 > passed. merge request created.
 > 3. ARC Authentication Result - dmarc verification code completed. tests
 > passed. merge request created.
 > 4. ARC Authentication Result - arc verification code completed. tests
 > passed. merge request created.

How do you propose to create tests for #4?

 > 5. ARC Authentication Result - generate AAR from the previous milestones
 > code. tests passed. merge request created.
 > 6. ARC Message Signature code completed. tests passed. merge request
 > created.
 > 7. ARC Seal code completed. tests passed. merge request created.
 > 8. Generate the ARC set of headers from the previous milestones code, and
 > prepend them to the message.
 > tests passed. merge request created.
 > 
 > *As you mentioned, branch coverage will be the aim behind all the tests for
 > each module (Branch coverage would mean considering all possible scenarios
 > of the workflow).
 > 
 > Notes -
 > 
 > 1. I've broken down the AAR set into different milestones, since each
 > method will require the use of different functions and packages. (ie. spf,
 > dkim, dmarc, arc).
 > 
 > 2. Regarding milestone 8, separate modules will be responsible for
 > generating the components of the ARC header set, and these can be combined
 > at the end for getting the complete ARC set. This will be useful for
 > testing purposes.
 > 
 > 3. We need to perform the dmarc testing manually since the gs.dmarc package
 > only provides the dmarc policy query functionality. The gs.dmarc package
 > can be used to query the dmarc record of the RFC5322.From domain. Then we
 > can verify using the aspf and adkim relaxed/strict tag values and the
 > spf/dkim results whether the dmarc authentication is a pass or fail, as
 > given in the RFC7489 draft (dmarc draft). Is there a better alternative to
 > this in your knowledge?

No.

 > I would like your opinion on these milestones, and if possible your
 > ideas can be merged with these to come up with a better list :)

No, your list is workable and basically similar to mine, except for
the ordering comment on #4.  I think we should develop your ideas
first, then compare.

Steve

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Mar 12 11:23:21 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 01:23:21 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Patch for HyperArch
In-Reply-To: <56E218A2.8080702@msapiro.net>
References: <8580C5DC2EE8E37F372FE68B@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DE0243.1090009@msapiro.net>
 <51E3568656CA930D61E243FC@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DF638F.30203@msapiro.net>
 <933C8B0A3D86051EA3F2495E@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E0AE88.6030801@msapiro.net>
 <71B0D669E139F5C87F8FB7F2@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E1B880.8060200@msapiro.net> <56E218A2.8080702@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <22244.17017.244182.326756@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > The Received: header check is important. For an "imported" mbox, the
 > From_ separators may reflect when the mbox was exported from it's source
 > rather than the message date. If the messages have Received: headers,
 > the later ones at least tend to have good dates.

Overengineering (seems to be becoming a habit?) perhaps, but if you're
going to parse one Received field, why not do them all, sort, and take
the latest reasonable one?  Leaving the sorted list on msg_data might
also be useful to spam filters (although we don't really want to
recommend spam filtering in Mailman...).


From oookusanya at stcloudstate.edu  Sat Mar 12 02:34:34 2016
From: oookusanya at stcloudstate.edu (Okusanya Damilola)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 01:34:34 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] INTEREST IN IMPLEMENTING Message queue based
 email archiver
Message-ID: <CADLn0=F-Zf0mg0wFPKKDULXL3NgcEc_0cus4iUu3508scgByXA@mail.gmail.com>

Sir,

My name is Okusanya Oluwadamilola. I am currently enrolled for my Masters
programme at Saint Cloud State University at St.Cloud Minnesota. I played
around with Apache ActiveMQ last semester and have some basic Python
skills. Could you shed some more light about the project? Thanks for your
prompt and favourable response.

Sincerely,

Okusanya OIuwadamilola.

From pabi.lenka at gmail.com  Sat Mar 12 05:17:20 2016
From: pabi.lenka at gmail.com (Pabitra Lenka)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 15:47:20 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] To GET STARTED
Message-ID: <CAAwRgXmD8c-W_KnJcvwoTZssdwL-vp2hp6X-B7Gsx6PgK=XT+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings Developers,
          I am a newbie.I would like to contribute to your
organization.Can anyone get me started.?

-- 
Cheers,
Pabitra Lenka
Department of Information Technology
Class of 2018
IIIT Bhubaneswar

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Mar 12 13:51:03 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 10:51:03 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Patch for HyperArch
In-Reply-To: <22244.17017.244182.326756@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <8580C5DC2EE8E37F372FE68B@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DE0243.1090009@msapiro.net>
 <51E3568656CA930D61E243FC@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DF638F.30203@msapiro.net>
 <933C8B0A3D86051EA3F2495E@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E0AE88.6030801@msapiro.net>
 <71B0D669E139F5C87F8FB7F2@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E1B880.8060200@msapiro.net> <56E218A2.8080702@msapiro.net>
 <22244.17017.244182.326756@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <56E46517.8030804@msapiro.net>

On 03/12/2016 08:23 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Mark Sapiro writes:
> 
>  > The Received: header check is important. For an "imported" mbox, the
>  > From_ separators may reflect when the mbox was exported from it's source
>  > rather than the message date. If the messages have Received: headers,
>  > the later ones at least tend to have good dates.
> 
> Overengineering (seems to be becoming a habit?) perhaps, but if you're
> going to parse one Received field, why not do them all, sort, and take
> the latest reasonable one?  Leaving the sorted list on msg_data might
> also be useful to spam filters (although we don't really want to
> recommend spam filtering in Mailman...).


I see your point, but my feeling is that bad dates tend to come from the
original poster's machine so that if the Date: header is bad, maybe the
first (bottom-most in the message headers) Received: header also has a
bad date, but subsequent ones are likely good.

I think the likelihood that the last (top-most) Received: date is also
bad but an intermediate one is good is vanishingly small.

I also note that the docs say that in the case of multiple 'Xxx:'
headers, the one returned by email.message.get('xxx') is indeterminate,
but I've looked at the code and in the message object, the header's are
kept in a list (not a dictionary) in the order parsed from the original
text, so get() which returns the first found will reliably return the
top-most one.

Also note that this change really only affects processing of imported
mailboxes with bin/arch. For posts to a list being archived, ArchRunner
has already fixed bad dates and even if it hasn't because the site set
ARCHIVER_CLOBBER_DATE_POLICY = 0, ArchRunner still added an
X-List-Received-Date: header and pipermail._set_date() will look at that
before looking at any Received: headers.

So we're really only dealing with defective messages from imported
mailboxes, and they often won't even have Received: headers.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From harshitbansal2015 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 12 15:31:17 2016
From: harshitbansal2015 at gmail.com (Harshit Bansal)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 02:01:17 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Discussion On Project Idea "Preset List
 Settings Templates" .
In-Reply-To: <22244.16780.167524.50549@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAGV4MTHxaZiG83-G9bf3S16LBpdxLqi2WygYpBjSivu0He4-yQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <569BF632.3010906@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTG1Zyn9k0eN=_5Jz3E=AodHmhkEx435Hi3xores46sarw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22184.4775.708220.823578@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAGV4MTFnaZEztXL2432KNNMBiyUgdOBvJ+ww_GvQJEvKxdVKfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56AD3D56.6020208@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTFukWFiHQNT+YBbT0bzL1UFEp8uKdFYOP=Vcuk45ii3_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BB9AF0.6010701@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTFzbP_zkxPwOwnv6JVzzDgup4ETY7Kp1ZfZp_mg=QXnYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160309205553.7699efce@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22240.62958.448991.400791@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAGV4MTGwV2i2LQrazrpahomtFAc8+-ffmou2XJTZ7X2HPYcrLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22244.16780.167524.50549@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAGV4MTEZfccdW8LKM7738YgAUA9k0cxp8afW7=urweao_92JVQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On 3/12/16, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:

>  > Basically, a style will be having three levels of viewability:
>  > 1: System wide : A style having this level of viewability will be
>  > visible to all the domains as well as the lists. It will be available
>  > to all the list owners for copying however the site owners will have
>  > the option to make it either read-only or editable.
>
> I don't see a real advantage to having this editable by list owners,
> since it's copyable.  On the other hand, "styles" are not just
> display, but also include security/privacy features.  Eg, a rogue
> editor could DoS the whole site by adding .* as a ban or discard
> expression in spam filtering.  I think probably it's OK to have styles
> editable only by owner.
>

Yes I also agree with you. I am refining this system as follows:
Suppose there is a style A having a domain level viewability. Then
only site owners and domain owners would be allowed to edit it. The
list owners would have the option to either apply as it is or copy and
modify it.
Basically, a user at the same or upper level would be able to edit the
style. The users at the lower level would have to copy the style if
they want to change it.

>  However, the owner might be a group of users.

Yeah, I am actually assuming them to be a group of users.

> How about inheritability?  The difference between inheritance and
> copying is that if the template changes, with inheritance the derived
> configurations change too, with copying they don't.
>

Sorry, I think I have used wrong terminology here. By 'copying' I
actually meant 'inheriting'.

>  > Also while working out the implementation details, I came across a new
>  > problem which is as follows:
>  > Suppose, we have three style A, B and C. B inherits from A and C
>  > inherits from B. Now, suppose someone decides to delete style B then
>  > how can we deal with this situation.
>
> Persistence across Mailman restarts of course needs to be carefully
> dealt with, but we deal with the basic issue in the usual Unix way: a
> style which is "deleted" just loses its entry in the admin-visible
> directory of styles, but it is not actually deleted from the database
> until all references are gone.
>

Indeed a great idea. The unused styles will garbage collected at
regular intervals.


Also, the way in which we now store and categorise styles has made
them very much analogous to the members of a list. So, should a
"roster" like functionality for searching and retrieving the styles be
implemented just like it is implemented for members?

Thanks,
Harshit Bansal.

From waseem.tabraze at gmail.com  Sat Mar 12 16:19:45 2016
From: waseem.tabraze at gmail.com (Wasim Thabraze)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 02:49:45 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Need more information about the GSoC idea
 'GitLab/development tools integration'
Message-ID: <CAE30-VSH4rJkkC2S1cYoKvMeAm9idhfV9wgoHX7SKopPqTuF8A@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

The GSoC idea states  'a tool that will take a thread from a Mailman
mailing list and..'. I just wanted to know what are the different ways to
extract a thread from a mailing list.

I'm actually trying to understand the idea from a couple of days but in
vain. I couldn't even find documentations related to thread extraction.

Does a thread has any unique id? If yes, how should I extract the thread
using the id?

Any links that would help me in understanding it in a much more better way?



Awaiting reply.


Thank You


Regards,
Wasim

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Sat Mar 12 16:44:28 2016
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 16:44:28 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Need more information about the GSoC idea
 'GitLab/development tools integration'
In-Reply-To: <CAE30-VSH4rJkkC2S1cYoKvMeAm9idhfV9wgoHX7SKopPqTuF8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE30-VSH4rJkkC2S1cYoKvMeAm9idhfV9wgoHX7SKopPqTuF8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56E48DBC.8080203@Damon-Family.org>

On 3/12/16 4:19 PM, Wasim Thabraze wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> The GSoC idea states  'a tool that will take a thread from a Mailman
> mailing list and..'. I just wanted to know what are the different ways to
> extract a thread from a mailing list.
>
> I'm actually trying to understand the idea from a couple of days but in
> vain. I couldn't even find documentations related to thread extraction.
>
> Does a thread has any unique id? If yes, how should I extract the thread
> using the id?
>
> Any links that would help me in understanding it in a much more better way?
>
>
>
> Awaiting reply.
>
>
> Thank You
>
>
> Regards,
> Wasim
>   
The normal definition of the 'Thread' is a chain of message linked by 
In-Reply-To: and References: headers to Reference-Id: headers.

Every email message has a unique Reference-Id: header to identify it.

When a person replies to that message, their email program is supposed 
to add a In-Reply-To: header with the Reference-Id of the message it is 
a reply to, or a References: header with a copy of the References: 
header of the message being replied to with the Reference-Id of the 
replied to message added at the beginning (and possibly ones at the end 
trimmed if the header gets too long). This chain defines a 'Thread'.

One wrinkle is with plain text digest users, they tend to not have the 
Reference-Id of the message they are replying to (one of the limitations 
of the plain text digest) so they tend to break threads. The one big 
issue here is that they also often send a message by replying to the 
digest, so two messages that refer to the same message in In-Reply-To: 
or References: headers might not want to be linked together as a thread 
if the common Message-Id isn't present (it is likely the digest). I 
think this is what the current mailman 2 archives do.

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Mar 12 17:33:20 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 14:33:20 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Need more information about the GSoC idea
 'GitLab/development tools integration'
In-Reply-To: <56E48DBC.8080203@Damon-Family.org>
References: <CAE30-VSH4rJkkC2S1cYoKvMeAm9idhfV9wgoHX7SKopPqTuF8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56E48DBC.8080203@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <56E49930.2050504@msapiro.net>

On 03/12/2016 01:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

> The normal definition of the 'Thread' is a chain of message linked by
> In-Reply-To: and References: headers to Reference-Id: headers.
> 
> Every email message has a unique Reference-Id: header to identify it.


Richard's answer is generally good, but the name of the header is
Message-Id:, not Reference-Id:

The definitive reference on threading is
<https://www.jwz.org/doc/threading.html>

Some mail clients (mostly Microsoft ones I think) put a Thread-Index:
header in messages, but for various reasons this is not useful for
determining threading on an email list with posts from many sources.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Mar 12 19:21:56 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 09:21:56 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Patch for HyperArch
In-Reply-To: <56E46517.8030804@msapiro.net>
References: <8580C5DC2EE8E37F372FE68B@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DE0243.1090009@msapiro.net>
 <51E3568656CA930D61E243FC@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56DF638F.30203@msapiro.net>
 <933C8B0A3D86051EA3F2495E@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E0AE88.6030801@msapiro.net>
 <71B0D669E139F5C87F8FB7F2@tyrion.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
 <56E1B880.8060200@msapiro.net> <56E218A2.8080702@msapiro.net>
 <22244.17017.244182.326756@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <56E46517.8030804@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <22244.45732.958298.922001@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:
 > On 03/12/2016 08:23 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
 > > Mark Sapiro writes:
 > > 
 > >  > The Received: header check is important. For an "imported" mbox, the
 > >  > From_ separators may reflect when the mbox was exported from it's source
 > >  > rather than the message date. If the messages have Received: headers,
 > >  > the later ones at least tend to have good dates.
 > > 
 > > Overengineering (seems to be becoming a habit?) perhaps, but if you're
 > > going to parse one Received field, why not do them all, sort, and take
 > > the latest reasonable one?  Leaving the sorted list on msg_data might
 > > also be useful to spam filters (although we don't really want to
 > > recommend spam filtering in Mailman...).
 > 
 > 
 > I see your point,

About "overengineering"?  :-)

Gotcha on the rest, but "overengineered, yes" was you needed to say.
(I guess the "header field contents are in a list ordered as you would
expect datum" is generally useful though.  Thanks for explaining that,
even if it's not part of the spec.)


From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Mar 12 19:22:12 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 09:22:12 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Need more information about the GSoC idea
 'GitLab/development tools integration'
In-Reply-To: <56E49930.2050504@msapiro.net>
References: <CAE30-VSH4rJkkC2S1cYoKvMeAm9idhfV9wgoHX7SKopPqTuF8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56E48DBC.8080203@Damon-Family.org> <56E49930.2050504@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <22244.45748.651795.904062@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > The definitive reference on threading is
 > <https://www.jwz.org/doc/threading.html>

There's also RFC 5256, based on Jamie's page, which defines threading
in the context of IMAP, and gives a concise account of the algorithm.

From anirudhdahiya9 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 13 06:52:25 2016
From: anirudhdahiya9 at gmail.com (Anirudh Dahiya)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 16:22:25 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Gsoc Support for Message queue based email
 archiver
Message-ID: <CAJ0CPtE=JKcXfLBK7saLBrp1Jbwg1YSFSrJ17ibSFGjcwDbgxA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello
I am a computer scrience undergrad at IIIT-Hyderabad, India.

I was looking through the GSoC 2016 ideas and would like to know more about
the project "message queue based email archiver"

I have played with codebase of mailman and postorius for some time now and
am currently trying to understand how Hyperkitty works.
Also, as suggested to other students regarding this project, I have gone
through the chapter on mailman in the book The Architecture of Open Source
Applications, the pycon talk on mailman by Barry and have also gone through
relevant parts of the documentation.

Regards
Anirudh Dahiya
(spark on IRC)

From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 13 06:57:40 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 16:27:40 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Basic workflow of the ARC implementation
In-Reply-To: <22244.16984.298509.789130@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAAQRvQLDcHfLiR3r5Z6T21OAhHXE+sWFU7MZ+vipn06j9O96vw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22236.10180.832824.471865@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQLASR3v5gvfu+CYcjTST02+PG9dQmXzXgwF8tmW=xa6gQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22244.16984.298509.789130@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQJsoOzZpvtp7WSG08UXSNDs9gWSae5X1g1N_iX=cS3dwg@mail.gmail.com>

> Stephen Turnbull writes:
> This is all already in the message or msg_data objects, except for the
> value of "i" itself.  So I'm not sure what you're saying.  My point is
> merely that any header field mentioned in any of the relevant RFCs
> that can be validated must be validated to conform to ARC.
>
> By extraction I meant that the message could be parsed to get back a tuple
of "headers, body" where the headers would be returned as lists containing
the name and value. And then all the required headers could be used for the
authentication purposes.
But since we will be receiving a processed mail from Mailman (msg_data), as
mentioned, the parsing won't be required.


> I'm not sure you will need so many separate modules; each verification
> depending on existing standard can probably be kept to a single
> function, unless you can't get all relevant information from the
> upstream modules.  But it doesn't hurt to separate them now, and think
> about combining them later, if that's convenient for you.
>
>
Yes, I meant to refer to separate functions here actually.
By modules I meant that the code for each would be independent, and can be
implemented as processes that the mail through.
Creating separate functions would help in debugging processes. Sorry for
the slip.


>  > 4. ARC Authentication Result - arc verification code completed. tests
>  > passed. merge request created.
>
> How do you propose to create tests for #4?
>
>
Here, we could consider a few scenarios-
1. A message is passed to the function which does not have any previous ARC
headers. In this case the verification is not performed.
2. A message containing a valid ARC chain is passed to the function. In
this case the verification is performed and the most recent ARC Seal is
tested for authenticity, which can be checked in the test.

This would get difficult if we are dealing with cases where the previous
ARC chain is longer than 1 or 2, since it would involve extracting all the
ARC headers in the message ( tricky, since all the headers have the same
"tag", i.e. - all the headers would be named the same - "ARC Message
Signature:", "ARC Seal:", and can be differentiated only on the basis of
the "i" value ), since the most recent ARC Seal will sign over all these,
and hence we need them for the verification process.

Here, a case could occur (if possible) where the message contains a broken
ARC chain, i.e. the last MTA did not add its ARC set of headers. This would
happen if it is assumed that not all MTAs are enforcing ARC.
It is not clear from the draft to me if in this case the arc verification
would have to be performed, since the draft assumes that all the
intermediaries participate in the ARC system. According to me since the
chain is broken, it would not be required to verify the ARC headers.
I would like to know how you think this case can be handled.

Thanks

Aditya

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Mar 13 08:01:53 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 21:01:53 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Basic workflow of the ARC implementation
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQJsoOzZpvtp7WSG08UXSNDs9gWSae5X1g1N_iX=cS3dwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQLDcHfLiR3r5Z6T21OAhHXE+sWFU7MZ+vipn06j9O96vw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22236.10180.832824.471865@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQLASR3v5gvfu+CYcjTST02+PG9dQmXzXgwF8tmW=xa6gQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22244.16984.298509.789130@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQJsoOzZpvtp7WSG08UXSNDs9gWSae5X1g1N_iX=cS3dwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22245.22193.340378.521847@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Aditya Divekar writes:

 > >  > 4. ARC Authentication Result - arc verification code completed. tests
 > >  > passed. merge request created.
 > >
 > > How do you propose to create tests for #4?
 > >
 > >
 > Here, we could consider a few scenarios-
 > 1. A message is passed to the function which does not have any previous ARC
 > headers. In this case the verification is not performed.
 > 2. A message containing a valid ARC chain is passed to the
 >    function.

The problem is how do you get such a message?  The easiest way is if
you have implemented the creation functions for the ARC-* fields.

Then you can check that you can roundtrip your own fields (create and
verify).  Of course you will eventually need to test against other
implementations (currently Google and AOL have implementations that I
know of), but for now it makes sense to "eat your own dogfood".

Regards,

From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 13 08:43:45 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 18:13:45 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Basic workflow of the ARC implementation
In-Reply-To: <22245.22193.340378.521847@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAAQRvQLDcHfLiR3r5Z6T21OAhHXE+sWFU7MZ+vipn06j9O96vw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22236.10180.832824.471865@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQLASR3v5gvfu+CYcjTST02+PG9dQmXzXgwF8tmW=xa6gQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22244.16984.298509.789130@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQJsoOzZpvtp7WSG08UXSNDs9gWSae5X1g1N_iX=cS3dwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <22245.22193.340378.521847@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQ+ax-nb4GrwDTLncfqvJKwBshH36Ki5zvxKpMOvW2tcuw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Steve,


> The problem is how do you get such a message?  The easiest way is if
> you have implemented the creation functions for the ARC-* fields.
>
> Then you can check that you can roundtrip your own fields (create and
> verify).  Of course you will eventually need to test against other
> implementations (currently Google and AOL have implementations that I
> know of), but for now it makes sense to "eat your own dogfood"
>

Yes, in that case the arc verification would need to be postponed to after
the entire code for the header generation has been written. I'll need to
rethink the milestones a bit, since this testing part would have to be
added at the end, and things will change quite a bit.
I'll work this out properly and reach back to you.

On a side note, would posting on the arc-discuss list for help in the above
problem of testing be acceptable?

Thanks

Aditya

From lan5432 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 13 07:19:10 2016
From: lan5432 at hotmail.com (Niko 7)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 12:19:10 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GitLab/development tools integration project
Message-ID: <DUB131-W68E483295DC7A2FEE93AE2ACB70@phx.gbl>




Greetings,
I'm a student from University of Oviedo, Spain, and I was interested in working with aforementioned project. I have decent experience in Python and I've already prepared my environment (forked and cloned the core and the client) and I'm going to look into helping with issues soon enough
Where should I start thinking about this project? Like, the code itself, I could use some guidance.
Thanks in advance!
 		 	   		  

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Mar 13 23:12:47 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 12:12:47 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Basic workflow of the ARC implementation
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQ+ax-nb4GrwDTLncfqvJKwBshH36Ki5zvxKpMOvW2tcuw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQLDcHfLiR3r5Z6T21OAhHXE+sWFU7MZ+vipn06j9O96vw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22236.10180.832824.471865@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQLASR3v5gvfu+CYcjTST02+PG9dQmXzXgwF8tmW=xa6gQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22244.16984.298509.789130@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQJsoOzZpvtp7WSG08UXSNDs9gWSae5X1g1N_iX=cS3dwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <22245.22193.340378.521847@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQ+ax-nb4GrwDTLncfqvJKwBshH36Ki5zvxKpMOvW2tcuw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22246.11311.937739.38846@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Aditya Divekar writes:

 > Yes, in that case the arc verification would need to be postponed to after
 > the entire code for the header generation has been written. I'll need to
 > rethink the milestones a bit, since this testing part would have to be
 > added at the end, and things will change quite a bit.

That's what I wanted to hear!  We're making rapid progress!

Let me know your thoughts on milestones.  There's no huge hurry, since
applications haven't even opened yet.

 > On a side note, would posting on the arc-discuss list for help in
 > the above problem of testing be acceptable?

Yes, but not yet.  I should probably review your first post or two
before posting, as well.  There are plenty of friendly, helpful people
on the IETF lists[1], but the lists themselves are rather different in
tone and style from most open-source projects.

Footnotes: 
[1]  Technically arc-discuss is hosted by dmarc.org, not the IETF, but
it's the same people.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Mar 13 23:15:29 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 12:15:29 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] TLS/SMTP AUTH in MM3? [was: Mailman without
 localhost ?]
In-Reply-To: <56E5ED3C.6010006@msapiro.net>
References: <3qNY5K2GsxzFqHj@mail.python.org>
	<56E5ED3C.6010006@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <22246.11473.182554.779391@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Redirected from -users.  I have nothing to add to what Mark wrote there.

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > These are for outgoing mail from Mailman only. They have nothing to do
 > with delivery of mail TO mailman. You can tell Mailman to connect to any
 > SMTP server and port by setting SMTPHOST to the fully qualified name of
 > the server and/or SMTPPORT to the port.
 > 
 > If ... you can use an alternate port such as 465 or 587 that may
 > require TLS and/or authentication, you can set SMTPPORT to that
 > value, but you (or the host admin) will have to patch Mailman's
 > SMTPDirect.py module to provide the authentication. You can find a
 > patch for this at <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/558281>.

Is this in Mailman 3?  If not, is it appropriate?  I doubt it's a GSoC
project in itself, but might be a good prove-yourself task for an
advanced applicant.

Steve

From raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 13 23:22:18 2016
From: raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com (Abhilash Raj)
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 20:22:18 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GitLab/development tools integration
 project
In-Reply-To: <DUB131-W68E483295DC7A2FEE93AE2ACB70@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB131-W68E483295DC7A2FEE93AE2ACB70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <56E62E6A.6010506@gmail.com>

Hi Niko,

On 03/13/2016 04:19 AM, Niko 7 wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Greetings,
> I'm a student from University of Oviedo, Spain, and I was interested in working with aforementioned project. I have decent experience in Python and I've already prepared my environment (forked and cloned the core and the client) and I'm going to look into helping with issues soon enough
> Where should I start thinking about this project? Like, the code itself, I could use some guidance.

You might want to first setup your development environment and then look
for some issues that you'd like in the issue tracker. That would be the
best way for you get started. If you have problems solving the issue or
setting up your environment, please let us know here or the IRC channel
#mailman. Although, most of the mailman's core developers use email more
than IRC, so if you don't get a response on IRC, it would be a good idea
to post here.

> Thanks in advance!
>  		 	   		  
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/raj.abhilash1%40gmail.com
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> 

-- 
thanks,
Abhilash Raj

From barry at list.org  Mon Mar 14 12:59:27 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 12:59:27 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] TLS/SMTP AUTH in MM3? [was: Mailman
 without localhost ?]
In-Reply-To: <22246.11473.182554.779391@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <3qNY5K2GsxzFqHj@mail.python.org> <56E5ED3C.6010006@msapiro.net>
 <22246.11473.182554.779391@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20160314125927.024cb3ea@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 14, 2016, at 12:15 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

>Is this in Mailman 3?  If not, is it appropriate?  I doubt it's a GSoC
>project in itself, but might be a good prove-yourself task for an
>advanced applicant.

Python 3's smtplib supports starttls() so I don't think it would be all that
difficult.  It doesn't look like the Launchpad bug made it to Gitlab, but I
agree with Steve's assessment.

Cheers,
-Barry

From domdambrogia at gmail.com  Mon Mar 14 14:25:24 2016
From: domdambrogia at gmail.com (Dominic Dambrogia)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 11:25:24 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] adding to REST
Message-ID: <CACG2BgL7_AocAF_or=Q6EEtQxcpGT1kBaXFuVuES9sr5E5_8Ow@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, My name is Dominic.
I contacted this mailing list last week about list moderation and post
approval. My problem was not being able to set a list password via the REST
api. I need this for nonmember approval of posting to a mailing list via
email in the "Approved: *list password*" style in the first line of the
email like the default request for moderation email suggests.

I'd like to go ahead and tackle this problem personally. I would appreciate
some insight on where to start looking in the project itself. I've only
installed the bundler and used REST so far, so my knowledge of how the
python code works so far is minimal.

Any insight is greatly appreciated, thanks.
- Dominic

From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 14 15:17:48 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 00:47:48 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Basic workflow of the ARC implementation
In-Reply-To: <22246.11311.937739.38846@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAAQRvQLDcHfLiR3r5Z6T21OAhHXE+sWFU7MZ+vipn06j9O96vw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22236.10180.832824.471865@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQLASR3v5gvfu+CYcjTST02+PG9dQmXzXgwF8tmW=xa6gQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22244.16984.298509.789130@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQJsoOzZpvtp7WSG08UXSNDs9gWSae5X1g1N_iX=cS3dwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <22245.22193.340378.521847@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQ+ax-nb4GrwDTLncfqvJKwBshH36Ki5zvxKpMOvW2tcuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22246.11311.937739.38846@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQJ+ma-XAJN9AHvmBQ=XnC+Nr+c-wUnhy8-kfuoNEmsZEw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Steve,
As discussed in our earlier conversation, I went over the milestones again
and made some changes.
We would need to use the approach of creating our own examples in the
milestone for the AS code (milestone 6, for testing) too, since the AS
signs over the previous generated set of headers. This will however not be
a problem since the AMS and AAR code should be already completed by that
point thus enabling the creation of test example.
And as said before, the second time this approach would be used in
milestone 7. The reordering of the arc verification after the completion of
the AMS and the AS should not be a problem since the AMS and AS code do not
refer explicitly to the arc verification field in the AAR. Both of them use
the AAR in their signing[1] as a whole field and are not concerned with its
individual fields, and hence the addition of arc at a later stage should
not create any problem. Also the examples used for testing by us in
milestone 5 and 6 would not involve the `arc = ` field since the example
mail will be consisting of the first instance of the ARC headers i.e. `i =
1`, and hence the arc verification test would not be performed (i.e. no
`arc = ` field in the AAR), even after the code for it is inserted in its
place, thus keeping the tests in milestones 5 and 6 valid.

Milestones -

1. ARC Authentication Result - spf verification code completed. tests
passed. merge request created.

2. ARC Authentication Result - dkim verification code completed. tests
passed. merge request created.

3. ARC Authentication Result - dmarc verification code completed. tests
passed. merge request created.

4. ARC Authentication Result - generate AAR header from the previous
milestones code. tests passed. merge request created.

5. ARC Message Signature code completed. tests passed. merge request
created.

6. ARC Seal code completed. tests passed. merge request created.

7. ARC Authentication Result - arc verification code completed. tests
passed. (The workflow is modified to make the mail pass through this
function after milestone 3 [2] ). merge request created.

8. The mail is prepended with the complete set of ARC headers. Tests for
checking the entire ARC set of headers passed. merge request created
(tests).

Comments on testing -

1. For spf testing  - The spf library itself provides test examples, and
mails can be extracted (i.e. the part before gmail adds its own
authentication results) from gmail using the `Show Original` feature. These
mails can be used for testing purposes.

2. For dkim testing - The dkim library provides testing examples, and
similar to above, mails may be used from gmail.

3. For dmarc testing - The examples for this can be gathered from our gmail
account. Any mail sent from yahoo's domain to a gmail account
will have dmarc verification performed. A mail extracted so can be used for
testing purposes by us.

4. Testing this would require testing of the format of the generated AAR
against the official RFC7601 format for authentication results (since the
values of the individual fields have already been tested above) i.e.
keeping track of the delimiters, white spaces, and the correct prepending.
The AAR header generated for an example mail from the above code can be
used here, and tested against the format outlined in the ARC draft.

5. ARC Message Signature testing - We can generate the signature for a
given example mail from the written code, and generate a signature using
the same set of headers from the dkim package (keeping track of the
implicit and explicit headers). The crucial part would be matching the
signatures, i.e. the "b" tag, and matching the body hash, i.e. the "bh"
tag. The "t" tag would differ since it depends on the exact time, and the
"i","a","s","d", "h" tags can be checked manually.

6. ARC Seal testing - For this we could use the previously defined AAR and
AMS, and the current AS code to generate a mail with the full ARC set of
headers (the AS would sign over the AAR and the AMS generated in the
previous milestones). An example mail could be then passed through the
above code, and then can be used for testing purposes (Here we would need
the approach of generating our example from the code as you mentioned).
Here too, the "i", "a" , "s" , "d" , "cv " tags can be checked manually and
the "t" tag would differ. Hence the crucial tag would be the "b" tag.

7. The code for the arc verification test is completed. We can now perform
the arc verification test here. A fully cooked mail with the ARC headers
can be prepared from the above code for the `pass` test . For a `fail`
test, we can make some manual changes in the AS to invalidate it, and then
perform arc verification on it.

8. Here the testing for the complete ARC set of headers would need to be
performed. An example mail can be passed through the above entire code, and
manually asserted in the test. (Since the individual fields would have
already been tested, the main aim here would be testing that the ARC
headers have been prepended correctly, in the correct order, and the format
outlined in the draft is maintained).

[1] The draft says that the AMS should include the AAR explicitly in the
signing. Here
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-andersen-arc-02#section-5.1.2.2.1.2>,
section 5.1.2.2.1.2

[2] The workflow of the mail can be handled through a handler function (
can be decided later). This can then be changed after milestone 7 to follow
the required order.

Thanks!

Aditya.

From simon.hanna at serve-me.info  Mon Mar 14 15:31:56 2016
From: simon.hanna at serve-me.info (Simon Hanna)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 20:31:56 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] adding to REST
In-Reply-To: <CACG2BgL7_AocAF_or=Q6EEtQxcpGT1kBaXFuVuES9sr5E5_8Ow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACG2BgL7_AocAF_or=Q6EEtQxcpGT1kBaXFuVuES9sr5E5_8Ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56E711AC.7030700@serve-me.info>

On 03/14/2016 07:25 PM, Dominic Dambrogia wrote:
> Hi, My name is Dominic.
> I contacted this mailing list last week about list moderation and post
> approval. My problem was not being able to set a list password via the REST
> api. I need this for nonmember approval of posting to a mailing list via
> email in the "Approved: *list password*" style in the first line of the
> email like the default request for moderation email suggests.
> 
> I'd like to go ahead and tackle this problem personally. I would appreciate
> some insight on where to start looking in the project itself. I've only
> installed the bundler and used REST so far, so my knowledge of how the
> python code works so far is minimal.
> 
> Any insight is greatly appreciated, thanks.
> - Dominic

If you want to actually develop mailman, you shouldn't use bundler for that. Check out the following
two pages that help you with some git knowledge and setting up your dev environment.
http://wiki.list.org/DEV/HowToContributeGit
http://wiki.list.org/DEV/SetupDevEnvironment

You should create an issue on gitlab https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/issues if there isn't one
already. This issue can be used to discuss specifics about the implementation.

You could try the irc channel #mailman on freenode for help in case you need something. You can of
course also post to this list.

All the code regarding the rest interface lives in src/mailman/rest

I hope this get's you started,
Simon

From trealtv at yandex.com  Mon Mar 14 17:34:29 2016
From: trealtv at yandex.com (treal tv)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 17:34:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] adding to REST
In-Reply-To: <56E711AC.7030700@serve-me.info>
References: <CACG2BgL7_AocAF_or=Q6EEtQxcpGT1kBaXFuVuES9sr5E5_8Ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <56E711AC.7030700@serve-me.info>
Message-ID: <56E72E65.4070200@yandex.com>

I might be misunderstanding you, Simon, but should I not be using 
Mailman 3 built with the bundler if I intend to modify/further build on 
the code?

I've been working off one built with the bundler for the last couple 
months and it's tolerated the mods I made without issue but I'd rather 
switch to source built sooner rather than later if it's going to matter 
in the future.

On 03/14/2016 03:31 PM, Simon Hanna wrote:
> On 03/14/2016 07:25 PM, Dominic Dambrogia wrote:
>> Hi, My name is Dominic.
>> I contacted this mailing list last week about list moderation and post
>> approval. My problem was not being able to set a list password via the REST
>> api. I need this for nonmember approval of posting to a mailing list via
>> email in the "Approved: *list password*" style in the first line of the
>> email like the default request for moderation email suggests.
>>
>> I'd like to go ahead and tackle this problem personally. I would appreciate
>> some insight on where to start looking in the project itself. I've only
>> installed the bundler and used REST so far, so my knowledge of how the
>> python code works so far is minimal.
>>
>> Any insight is greatly appreciated, thanks.
>> - Dominic
> If you want to actually develop mailman, you shouldn't use bundler for that. Check out the following
> two pages that help you with some git knowledge and setting up your dev environment.
> http://wiki.list.org/DEV/HowToContributeGit
> http://wiki.list.org/DEV/SetupDevEnvironment
>
> You should create an issue on gitlab https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/issues if there isn't one
> already. This issue can be used to discuss specifics about the implementation.
>
> You could try the irc channel #mailman on freenode for help in case you need something. You can of
> course also post to this list.
>
> All the code regarding the rest interface lives in src/mailman/rest
>
> I hope this get's you started,
> Simon
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/trealtv%40yandex.com
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9


From simon.hanna at serve-me.info  Mon Mar 14 18:24:25 2016
From: simon.hanna at serve-me.info (Simon Hanna)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 23:24:25 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] adding to REST
In-Reply-To: <56E72E65.4070200@yandex.com>
References: <CACG2BgL7_AocAF_or=Q6EEtQxcpGT1kBaXFuVuES9sr5E5_8Ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <56E711AC.7030700@serve-me.info> <56E72E65.4070200@yandex.com>
Message-ID: <56E73A19.1060904@serve-me.info>

On 03/14/2016 10:34 PM, treal tv wrote:
> I might be misunderstanding you, Simon, but should I not be using Mailman 3 built with the bundler
> if I intend to modify/further build on the code?
> 
> I've been working off one built with the bundler for the last couple months and it's tolerated the
> mods I made without issue but I'd rather switch to source built sooner rather than later if it's
> going to matter in the future.
I'm unaware of any real downside to using the repo (unless you are a security fanatic and want stuff
tested for a couple of years ^^)
You can also use bundler with git repos. You'll just have to do run "python setup.py develop" for
mailman in the python3 virtualenv that bundler installs. Note you will want to use the other repos
as well, as there might be some incompatibilities.

Now to why you should be using it:
In case you want to turn in patches (merge requests) then having a repo is a must. And if you don't
plan to turn in patches it's still useful. You can work on another branch than master and whenever
upstream has new commits you can rebase them into your branch. That way you stay up to date without
too much maintenance


From trealtv at yandex.com  Mon Mar 14 18:33:59 2016
From: trealtv at yandex.com (treal tv)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 18:33:59 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] adding to REST
In-Reply-To: <56E73A19.1060904@serve-me.info>
References: <CACG2BgL7_AocAF_or=Q6EEtQxcpGT1kBaXFuVuES9sr5E5_8Ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <56E711AC.7030700@serve-me.info> <56E72E65.4070200@yandex.com>
 <56E73A19.1060904@serve-me.info>
Message-ID: <56E73C57.8090606@yandex.com>

I hadn't considered this yet. I had planned to help with patches so 
yeah, I think i'll be rebuilding from the repo! Thanks, I hadn't even 
thought about that yet.

On 03/14/2016 06:24 PM, Simon Hanna wrote:
> In case you want to turn in patches (merge requests) then having a repo is a must. And if you don't
> plan to turn in patches it's still useful.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Mar 15 00:53:43 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 13:53:43 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] adding to REST
In-Reply-To: <56E73C57.8090606@yandex.com>
References: <CACG2BgL7_AocAF_or=Q6EEtQxcpGT1kBaXFuVuES9sr5E5_8Ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <56E711AC.7030700@serve-me.info> <56E72E65.4070200@yandex.com>
 <56E73A19.1060904@serve-me.info> <56E73C57.8090606@yandex.com>
Message-ID: <22247.38231.861881.281326@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

treal tv writes:

 > I hadn't considered this yet. I had planned to help with patches so
 > yeah, I think i'll be rebuilding from the repo! Thanks, I hadn't
 > even thought about that yet.

I think the way to think about it is that bundler is a system for
distributing a "turnkey" Mailman installation (I guess the more modern
term is "app" but we're way far from getting there!)  If you are
interested in contributing to the distribution methods themselves (and
that is *very* important, at this point distribution and upgrade from
Mailman 2 are probably more important *to our users*[1] than code
improvement), install bundler (probably alongside a repo installation,
or including a repo installation).  Otherwise, bundler itself is still
unstable, and will distract you from working on Mailman, Postorius,
and/or HyperKitty code.

Of course if you just want a working Mailman installation that you can
start up, configure, and then ignore, try bundler.  It does work for a
lot of people at some instants of time. ;-)


Footnotes: 
[1]  Remember, we're all volunteers.  Users are important to most core
contributors "just because we care", but you are a volunteer[2] too.
Over time we'll train you to be more user-oriented, but for now, have
fun!

[2]  That's mostly remains true if you are a GSoC intern.


From f at florianfuchs.com  Tue Mar 15 05:20:45 2016
From: f at florianfuchs.com (Florian Fuchs)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 10:20:45 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] INTEREST IN IMPLEMENTING Message queue
 based email archiver
In-Reply-To: <CADLn0=F-Zf0mg0wFPKKDULXL3NgcEc_0cus4iUu3508scgByXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADLn0=F-Zf0mg0wFPKKDULXL3NgcEc_0cus4iUu3508scgByXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160315092045.GA17979@mud.redhat.com>

On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 01:34:34AM -0600, Okusanya Damilola wrote:
>Sir,
>
>My name is Okusanya Oluwadamilola. I am currently enrolled for my Masters
>programme at Saint Cloud State University at St.Cloud Minnesota. I played
>around with Apache ActiveMQ last semester and have some basic Python
>skills. Could you shed some more light about the project? Thanks for your
>prompt and favourable response.

The idea behind this project is to use Mailman's (Python-based) IArchiver
interface to add outgoing posts to a message queue (or pub/sub) system which
can be consumed by any number of applications, no matter if they're written
in Python or not -- asynchronously, even simultaneously. This would open up
Mailman to all kinds of use cases, maybe some of them beyond that of a
"traditional" mailing list.

One part of the project would be to choose and integrate a small number of
backends (ActiveMQ could be one of them, but I think both first-in-first out
as well as pub/sub are interesting concepts) to distribute list posts.

The other part is to come up with an interesting idea how this could be used
and maybe create an implementation of that too (depending on the
application's scope): Say, hooking it up to a static web page generator. Or
creating a websockets server based on this. (These are just spontaneous ideas
-- get creative!).

In order to prepare for this it makes sense to study Mailman's IArchiver
interface in the core (src/mailman/interfaces/archiver.py) and check out the
existing implementations: mhonarc and mailarchive (both in
src/mailman/archiving), but especially HyperKitty.

Florian

>
>Sincerely,
>
>Okusanya OIuwadamilola.
>_______________________________________________
>Mailman-Developers mailing list
>Mailman-Developers at python.org
>https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
>Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
>Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/f%40florianfuchs.com
>
>Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9

From f at florianfuchs.com  Tue Mar 15 05:30:49 2016
From: f at florianfuchs.com (Florian Fuchs)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 10:30:49 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Gsoc Support for Message queue based email
 archiver
In-Reply-To: <CAJ0CPtE=JKcXfLBK7saLBrp1Jbwg1YSFSrJ17ibSFGjcwDbgxA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ0CPtE=JKcXfLBK7saLBrp1Jbwg1YSFSrJ17ibSFGjcwDbgxA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160315093049.GB17979@mud.redhat.com>

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 16:22:25PM +0530, Anirudh Dahiya wrote:
>Hello
>I am a computer scrience undergrad at IIIT-Hyderabad, India.
>
>I was looking through the GSoC 2016 ideas and would like to know more about
>the project "message queue based email archiver"

Great to hear you're interested in this project. I've just responded to
another question regarding this project that is equally relevant to you:

  http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/msg16305.html

>I have played with codebase of mailman and postorius for some time now and
>am currently trying to understand how Hyperkitty works.
>Also, as suggested to other students regarding this project, I have gone
>through the chapter on mailman in the book The Architecture of Open Source
>Applications, the pycon talk on mailman by Barry and have also gone through
>relevant parts of the documentation.

Sounds good. If you're already reading through the HyperKitty source, you
might give special attention to its implementation of Mailman's IArchiver
interface, as well as the implementations for the mail-archive.com and
mhonarc archivers in the Mailman core projects.

Florian

>
>Regards
>Anirudh Dahiya
>(spark on IRC)
>_______________________________________________
>Mailman-Developers mailing list
>Mailman-Developers at python.org
>https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
>Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
>Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/f%40florianfuchs.com
>
>Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9

From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 15 07:48:37 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 17:18:37 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Basic workflow of the ARC implementation
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQJ+ma-XAJN9AHvmBQ=XnC+Nr+c-wUnhy8-kfuoNEmsZEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQLDcHfLiR3r5Z6T21OAhHXE+sWFU7MZ+vipn06j9O96vw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22236.10180.832824.471865@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQLASR3v5gvfu+CYcjTST02+PG9dQmXzXgwF8tmW=xa6gQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22244.16984.298509.789130@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQJsoOzZpvtp7WSG08UXSNDs9gWSae5X1g1N_iX=cS3dwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <22245.22193.340378.521847@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQ+ax-nb4GrwDTLncfqvJKwBshH36Ki5zvxKpMOvW2tcuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22246.11311.937739.38846@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQJ+ma-XAJN9AHvmBQ=XnC+Nr+c-wUnhy8-kfuoNEmsZEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQLHXNCxR5wHf-torcuCLEq6ZBpn7Sak00G56n0hqrF7Zw@mail.gmail.com>

Regarding my previous mail,
I have implicitly assumed that the testing would involve the use of
examples which do not have a pre-existing valid ARC chain in them i.e. the
test examples would not be containing mails which have multiple ARC set of
headers, and that the ARC chain would be first initiated by Mailman. Such
examples cannot be used for testing before all the milestones are completed
due to the arc verification test being implemented at the end.
We can, however implement such examples in the testing process once the
entire code is completed, since then the arc verification will be in place.
Also, this can be added as a milestone after all the previously mentioned
milestones are complete or can be merged with milestone 8.

Thanks.

Aditya.

From oookusanya at stcloudstate.edu  Tue Mar 15 12:50:10 2016
From: oookusanya at stcloudstate.edu (Okusanya Damilola)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 11:50:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] INTEREST IN IMPLEMENTING Message queue
 based email archiver
Message-ID: <CADLn0=HJJnfnAAshJp0TzZw4792Y18_qLXAj=AbxNnZz-C3ZDg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for your reply. I am currently studying the existing
implementations mhonarc
and mailarchive (both in src/mailman/archiving) and also Hyperkitty.
Someone also mentioned in the thread that studying the GNU mailman
architecture in the "The Architecture of Open Source Applications" would be
helpful. Is that applicable to this scenario? I will come up with a draft
implementation on Thursday.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 4:20 AM, Florian Fuchs <f at florianfuchs.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 01:34:34AM -0600, Okusanya Damilola wrote:
>
>> Sir,
>>
>> My name is Okusanya Oluwadamilola. I am currently enrolled for my Masters
>> programme at Saint Cloud State University at St.Cloud Minnesota. I played
>> around with Apache ActiveMQ last semester and have some basic Python
>> skills. Could you shed some more light about the project? Thanks for your
>> prompt and favourable response.
>>
>
> The idea behind this project is to use Mailman's (Python-based) IArchiver
> interface to add outgoing posts to a message queue (or pub/sub) system
> which
> can be consumed by any number of applications, no matter if they're written
> in Python or not -- asynchronously, even simultaneously. This would open up
> Mailman to all kinds of use cases, maybe some of them beyond that of a
> "traditional" mailing list.
>
> One part of the project would be to choose and integrate a small number of
> backends (ActiveMQ could be one of them, but I think both first-in-first
> out
> as well as pub/sub are interesting concepts) to distribute list posts.
>
> The other part is to come up with an interesting idea how this could be
> used
> and maybe create an implementation of that too (depending on the
> application's scope): Say, hooking it up to a static web page generator. Or
> creating a websockets server based on this. (These are just spontaneous
> ideas
> -- get creative!).
>
> In order to prepare for this it makes sense to study Mailman's IArchiver
> interface in the core (src/mailman/interfaces/archiver.py) and check out
> the
> existing implementations: mhonarc and mailarchive (both in
> src/mailman/archiving), but especially HyperKitty.
>
> Florian
>
>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Okusanya OIuwadamilola.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mailman-Developers mailing list
>> Mailman-Developers at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
>> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>> Searchable Archives:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
>> Unsubscribe:
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/f%40florianfuchs.com
>>
>> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives:
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From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar 16 01:35:55 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 22:35:55 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Advice needed on Production MM3 install
Message-ID: <56E8F0BB.8050500@msapiro.net>

Some of you may have seen my posts on mailman-cabal, but I am installing
a production instance of Mailman 3 on lists.mailman3.org in order to
support initially a Mailman 3 users list.

The first question is should it be mailman-users at mailman3.org or
mailman-users at mailman3.org. The former is more of a recognition that
Mailman 3 is now Mailman while the latter offers less possibility for
confusion with mailman-users at python.org. Then, I suppose it could be
just users at mailman3.org, but we might want to support other 'users'
lists in the future.

Opinions welcome.

The next thing is I'm having much more difficulty than I anticipated,
probably in large part because I haven't followed Postorius and
HyperKitty development that closely. I have lots of things I think I
should be able to do in Postorius and I can't and I don't know if the
issue is Postorius or my installation.

I initially installed mailman-bundler from gitlab. configured it for
production, ran buildout and set it up. My initial issue is I couldn't
log in to Postorius at all. I had set a Django superuser, but I see
nowhere to authenticate as that. The only logins offered were Google,
Yahoo and Persona, and they all threw various but similar exceptions.

With Abhilash's help, I got past some of that and I can now log in with
Persona, but there are still issues with the others[1].

In the process of working through that, I cloned the head of the mailman
branch from github and upgraded to that, but Postorius and HyperKitty
are still what bundler installed.

I got PostgreSQL, Postfix, openDKIM, nginx and gunicorn all configured
and that all seems good.

In the process of working through some other issues, I enabled SSL in
Django with certificates I got from Let's Encrypt. That has led to a
current issue which is if a list's archiving is on, I can't post. The
post gets shunted in archiving because somewhere in the process the
runner tries to make an SSL connection to 127.0.0.1 and the certificate
is only valid for lists.mailman3.org, mirror.list.org and
mirror.mailman3.org[2]. I'm sure there must be a way to change the
connect to use lists.mailman3.org, but I don't know it.

Then perhaps my biggest issue is I can't do any admin tasks in Postorius
other than on my own lists. I can't create lists or domains or edit
domains or anything like that. I even set my user record is_server_owner
flag True, but that didn't help. I managed to do some of what I needed
via the mailman create and mailman shell commands, but I'm sure I should
be able to do that in Postorius, but I can't log in as superuser and it
doesn't seem to care that I'm a server admin. Maybe I need to upgrade
Postorius and HyperKitty.

Which is the next advice I need. I'm thinking of trying to start clean
and I have questions.

Is it better to use bundler and then upgrade what it installed or just
install the separate pieces and try to knit them together or should I
maybe just upgrade Postorius and HyperKitty in place as I did the core.
If I start clean will running the bin/mailman-post-update script
initialize all the data or will there be residue in the PostgreSQL
database that may cause problems.

Sorry for the long post, but I really need advice. I won't be getting
back to this until Wed Evening US Pacific time, so there's time to
respond <wink>.

[1][2] Tracebacks in attached file.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
-------------- next part --------------
Google Traceback

ERROR 2016-03-15 16:23:08,895 base 8170 140464123397952 Internal Server Error: /login/google/
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/core/handlers/base.py", line 132, in get_response
    response = wrapped_callback(request, *callback_args, **callback_kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/views/decorators/cache.py", line 57, in _wrapped_view_func
    response = view_func(request, *args, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/apps/django_app/utils.py", line 51, in wrapper
    return func(request, backend, *args, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/apps/django_app/views.py", line 19, in auth
    return do_auth(request.backend, redirect_name=REDIRECT_FIELD_NAME)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/actions.py", line 28, in do_auth
    return backend.start()
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/backends/base.py", line 35, in start
    if self.uses_redirect():
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/backends/open_id.py", line 239, in uses_redirect
    return self.openid_request().shouldSendRedirect()
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/backends/open_id.py", line 248, in openid_request
    err
AuthException: OpenID discovery error: HTTP Response status from identity URL host is not 200. Got status 404

Yahoo Tracebacks

ERROR 2016-03-15 20:45:21,013 base 8170 140464123397952 Internal Server Error: /complete/yahoo/
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/core/handlers/base.py", line 132, in get_response
    response = wrapped_callback(request, *callback_args, **callback_kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/views/decorators/cache.py", line 57, in _wrapped_view_func
    response = view_func(request, *args, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/views/decorators/csrf.py", line 58, in wrapped_view
    return view_func(*args, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/apps/django_app/utils.py", line 51, in wrapper
    return func(request, backend, *args, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/apps/django_app/views.py", line 28, in complete
    redirect_name=REDIRECT_FIELD_NAME, *args, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/actions.py", line 43, in do_complete
    user = backend.complete(user=user, *args, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/backends/base.py", line 41, in complete
    return self.auth_complete(*args, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/backends/open_id.py", line 174, in auth_complete
    return self.strategy.authenticate(*args, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/strategies/django_strategy.py", line 96, in authenticate
    return authenticate(*args, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/contrib/auth/__init__.py", line 74, in authenticate
    user = backend.authenticate(**credentials)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/backends/base.py", line 82, in authenticate
    return self.pipeline(pipeline, *args, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/backends/base.py", line 85, in pipeline
    out = self.run_pipeline(pipeline, pipeline_index, *args, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/backends/base.py", line 111, in run_pipeline
    func = module_member(name)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/utils.py", line 57, in module_member
    return getattr(module, member)
AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'add_user_to_mailman'



ERROR 2016-03-15 22:46:27,659 base 8170 140464123397952 Internal Server Error: /complete/yahoo/
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/core/handlers/base.py", line 132, in get_response
    response = wrapped_callback(request, *callback_args, **callback_kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/views/decorators/cache.py", line 57, in _wrapped_view_func
    response = view_func(request, *args, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/views/decorators/csrf.py", line 58, in wrapped_view
    return view_func(*args, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/apps/django_app/utils.py", line 51, in wrapper
    return func(request, backend, *args, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/apps/django_app/views.py", line 28, in complete
    redirect_name=REDIRECT_FIELD_NAME, *args, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/actions.py", line 43, in do_complete
    user = backend.complete(user=user, *args, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/backends/base.py", line 41, in complete
    return self.auth_complete(*args, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/backends/open_id.py", line 172, in auth_complete
    self.process_error(response)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/eggs/python_social_auth-0.2.14-py2.7.egg/social/backends/open_id.py", line 180, in process_error
    raise AuthFailed(self, data.message)
AuthFailed: Authentication failed: Invalid openid.mode: '<No mode set>'


Archiving exception

Mar 16 02:28:27 2016 (2965) ACCEPT: <56E8C4C0.8070207 at msapiro.net>
Mar 16 02:28:27 2016 (2964) Uncaught runner exception: hostname '127.0.0.1' doesn't match either of 'lists.mailman3.org', 'mirror.list.org', 'mirror.mailman3.org'
Mar 16 02:28:27 2016 (2964) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/requests/packages/urllib3/connectionpool.py", line 559, in urlopen
    body=body, headers=headers)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/requests/packages/urllib3/connectionpool.py", line 345, in _make_request
    self._validate_conn(conn)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/requests/packages/urllib3/connectionpool.py", line 784, in _validate_conn
    conn.connect()
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/requests/packages/urllib3/connection.py", line 277, in connect
    match_hostname(cert, asserted_hostname)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.4/ssl.py", line 285, in match_hostname
    % (hostname, ', '.join(map(repr, dnsnames))))
ssl.CertificateError: hostname '127.0.0.1' doesn't match either of 'lists.mailman3.org', 'mirror.list.org', 'mirror.mailman3.org'

During handling of the above exception, another exception occurred:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/requests/adapters.py", line 376, in send
    timeout=timeout
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/requests/packages/urllib3/connectionpool.py", line 588, in urlopen
    raise SSLError(e)
requests.packages.urllib3.exceptions.SSLError: hostname '127.0.0.1' doesn't match either of 'lists.mailman3.org', 'mirror.list.org', 'mirror.mailman3.org'

During handling of the above exception, another exception occurred:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/mailman/core/runner.py", line 165, in _one_iteration
    self._process_one_file(msg, msgdata)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/mailman/core/runner.py", line 258, in _process_one_file
    keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/mailman/runners/pipeline.py", line 41, in _dispose
    process(mlist, msg, msgdata, pipeline)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/mailman/core/pipelines.py", line 62, in process
    handler.process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/mailman/handlers/rfc_2369.py", line 124, in process
    process(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/mailman/handlers/rfc_2369.py", line 88, in process
    archiver_url = archiver.system_archiver.list_url(mlist)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/mailman_hyperkitty/__init__.py", line 101, in list_url
    return self._get_url({"mlist": mlist.fqdn_listname})
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/mailman_hyperkitty/__init__.py", line 82, in _get_url
    result = requests.get(url, params=params)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/requests/api.py", line 67, in get
    return request('get', url, params=params, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/requests/api.py", line 53, in request
    return session.request(method=method, url=url, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/requests/sessions.py", line 468, in request
    resp = self.send(prep, **send_kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/requests/sessions.py", line 597, in send
    history = [resp for resp in gen] if allow_redirects else []
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/requests/sessions.py", line 597, in <listcomp>
    history = [resp for resp in gen] if allow_redirects else []
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/requests/sessions.py", line 195, in resolve_redirects
    **adapter_kwargs
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/requests/sessions.py", line 576, in send
    r = adapter.send(request, **kwargs)
  File "/opt/mailman/mailman-bundler/venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/requests/adapters.py", line 447, in send
    raise SSLError(e, request=request)
requests.exceptions.SSLError: hostname '127.0.0.1' doesn't match either of 'lists.mailman3.org', 'mirror.list.org', 'mirror.mailman3.org'
Mar 16 02:28:27 2016 (2964) SHUNTING: 1458095307.2480416+8c7a3c9ebd560baabdf44fd725d514de4be263f2


From f at florianfuchs.com  Wed Mar 16 02:35:34 2016
From: f at florianfuchs.com (Florian Fuchs)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 07:35:34 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] INTEREST IN IMPLEMENTING Message queue
 based email archiver
In-Reply-To: <CADLn0=HJJnfnAAshJp0TzZw4792Y18_qLXAj=AbxNnZz-C3ZDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADLn0=HJJnfnAAshJp0TzZw4792Y18_qLXAj=AbxNnZz-C3ZDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160316063533.GA4363@mud.redhat.com>

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 11:50:10AM -0500, Okusanya Damilola wrote:
>Thanks for your reply. I am currently studying the existing
>implementations mhonarc
>and mailarchive (both in src/mailman/archiving) and also Hyperkitty.

Good!

>Someone also mentioned in the thread that studying the GNU mailman
>architecture in the "The Architecture of Open Source Applications" would be
>helpful. Is that applicable to this scenario? I will come up with a draft
>implementation on Thursday.

This article will give you a great introduction into the general architecture
of the Mailman core, so it will certainly benefit you to read it. However,
this particular project will probably require only minimal (if any) changes
to the core.

It's a good idea to code a simple draft to check out how the IArchiver
interface works. But at this point in the GSoC application phase it's also
very important to think about where you want to go with this project, like:
Which backend(s) to choose for a start, what possible use cases could be etc.

Florian


From simon.hanna at serve-me.info  Wed Mar 16 07:48:18 2016
From: simon.hanna at serve-me.info (Simon Hanna)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 12:48:18 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Advice needed on Production MM3 install
In-Reply-To: <56E8F0BB.8050500@msapiro.net>
References: <56E8F0BB.8050500@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56E94802.5030402@serve-me.info>

On 03/16/2016 06:35 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Some of you may have seen my posts on mailman-cabal, but I am installing
> a production instance of Mailman 3 on lists.mailman3.org in order to
> support initially a Mailman 3 users list.
> 
> The first question is should it be mailman-users at mailman3.org or
> mailman-users at mailman3.org. The former is more of a recognition that
> Mailman 3 is now Mailman while the latter offers less possibility for
> confusion with mailman-users at python.org. Then, I suppose it could be
> just users at mailman3.org, but we might want to support other 'users'
> lists in the future.
The list names are the same, I guess you misspelled one.
> The next thing is I'm having much more difficulty than I anticipated,
> probably in large part because I haven't followed Postorius and
> HyperKitty development that closely. I have lots of things I think I
> should be able to do in Postorius and I can't and I don't know if the
> issue is Postorius or my installation.
> 
> I initially installed mailman-bundler from gitlab. configured it for
> production, ran buildout and set it up. My initial issue is I couldn't
> log in to Postorius at all. I had set a Django superuser, but I see
> nowhere to authenticate as that. The only logins offered were Google,
> Yahoo and Persona, and they all threw various but similar exceptions.
Postorius enables local logins by default. Hyperkitty needs you to set
USE_INTERNAL_AUTH = True
in the settings file.
Postorius has it's own login templates '/postorius/accounts/login'
where you should always be able to login using a local account.
Postorius only supports local and persona.
Hyperkitty's templates are used by default, which add yahoo and google login,
but will need tweaking the settings for local logins.

About the other login methods. I only have persona enabled and haven't used
the others. At least for google you will need to sign up for a client ID.
I
> With Abhilash's help, I got past some of that and I can now log in with
> Persona, but there are still issues with the others[1].
> 
> In the process of working through that, I cloned the head of the mailman
> branch from github and upgraded to that, but Postorius and HyperKitty
> are still what bundler installed.
Just in case you run into issues, you should probably use the git versions
of Postorius, Hyperkitty and mailmanclient as well.
> I got PostgreSQL, Postfix, openDKIM, nginx and gunicorn all configured
> and that all seems good.
> 
> In the process of working through some other issues, I enabled SSL in
> Django with certificates I got from Let's Encrypt. That has led to a
> current issue which is if a list's archiving is on, I can't post. The
> post gets shunted in archiving because somewhere in the process the
> runner tries to make an SSL connection to 127.0.0.1 and the certificate
> is only valid for lists.mailman3.org, mirror.list.org and
> mirror.mailman3.org[2]. I'm sure there must be a way to change the
> connect to use lists.mailman3.org, but I don't know it.
I ran into this issue as well. I had all of postorius and hyperkitty
secured by ssl. So the link I used in mailman-hyperkitty (archiver plugin)
started with "https"
Hyperkitty a setting MAILMAN_ARCHIVER_FROM that defines which ips are
allowed to use it's api to add to the archives. By default it only contains
localhost addresses. You will need to add your external ip addresses,
as the requests will all have your external ip.
> Then perhaps my biggest issue is I can't do any admin tasks in Postorius
> other than on my own lists. I can't create lists or domains or edit
> domains or anything like that. I even set my user record is_server_owner
> flag True, but that didn't help. I managed to do some of what I needed
> via the mailman create and mailman shell commands, but I'm sure I should
> be able to do that in Postorius, but I can't log in as superuser and it
> doesn't seem to care that I'm a server admin. Maybe I need to upgrade
> Postorius and HyperKitty.
> 
> Which is the next advice I need. I'm thinking of trying to start clean
> and I have questions.
> 
> Is it better to use bundler and then upgrade what it installed or just
> install the separate pieces and try to knit them together or should I
> maybe just upgrade Postorius and HyperKitty in place as I did the core.
> If I start clean will running the bin/mailman-post-update script
> initialize all the data or will there be residue in the PostgreSQL
> database that may cause problems.
Running mailman-post-update multiple times shouldn't cause any issues.
I like deploying things myself, so I know how to fix them if needed,
I have a running production installation using git.
(mainly because the released version of mailman doesn't support python 3.5)
It's really not that hard to setup. It's mostly just python setup.py install
or just using pip.
I have a bunch of pkgbuilds for archlinux that might be helpful if you want
to install it on your own. This one holds everything together:
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/mailman-suite-git/
Note: I installed mailman systemwide, so my mailman.service won't work
if you use virtualenvs.
For django I opted for uwsgi which supports a virtualenv.
> Sorry for the long post, but I really need advice. I won't be getting
> back to this until Wed Evening US Pacific time, so there's time to
> respond <wink>.
If you need any help, I'm probably also available on irc 'thelinuxguy',
I'm a UTC+1 guy, but usually stay up late :D
> 
> [1][2] Tracebacks in attached file.
About the traceback including add_user_to_mailman:
The method should be defined in lib/mailman.py
The change is associated with this commit:
1755122c (Aur?lien Bompard 2015-11-19 19:10:14 +0100

It probably isn't included in the released versions of hyperkitty.
I'm not sure how to fix it in this case. Probably using git is the easiest,
but then the settings need to be adapted. You will want a mix of
hyperkitty_standalone, postorius_standalone and bundlers settings.
In that case I would suggest you start the django server by hand to see if
any errors occur.

The other tracebacks seem to be related to social_auth. You might want to update it,
and check for issues on their github site.

> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/simon.hanna%40serve-me.info
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> 


From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Wed Mar 16 08:38:51 2016
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 12:38:51 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Advice needed on Production MM3 install
In-Reply-To: <56E8F0BB.8050500@msapiro.net>
References: <56E8F0BB.8050500@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20160316123851.GP21217@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 10:35:55PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> The first question is should it be mailman-users at mailman3.org or
> mailman-users at mailman3.org. The former is more of a recognition that
> Mailman 3 is now Mailman while the latter offers less possibility for
> confusion with mailman-users at python.org. 

I'm guessing you meant mailman-users@ vs mailman3-users at .

For those that look at the address they're sending to, there's already
mailman3 in the domain, so I'd say adding a number is probably
superflous (although could be a belt and braces approach).

> Then, I suppose it could be
> just users at mailman3.org, but we might want to support other 'users'
> lists in the future.

Unless I'm really misremembering, MM3 isn't so fussy about unique
localparts/listnames; so other users lists in the future might be on
separate (sub)domains. 

Generally speaking, though, my preference is to include the project
name; not only does it make autocomplete easier, but in composing a
new message I'm more likely to send it to the right place.

My preference would be:

    mailman-users at mailman3.org  // plural
    mailman-dev at mailman3.org    // singular, relates to project not individuals
    mailman-foo at mailman3        // other lists

which is pretty much the approach I've used with a bunch of other
projects and lists.

-- 
The computer is only a tool. Unfortunately, so is the user.

From barry at list.org  Wed Mar 16 10:21:34 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 10:21:34 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Advice needed on Production MM3 install
In-Reply-To: <56E8F0BB.8050500@msapiro.net>
References: <56E8F0BB.8050500@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20160316102134.7534795a@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 15, 2016, at 10:35 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>The first question is should it be mailman-users at mailman3.org or
>mailman-users at mailman3.org.

That's mailman3-users at mailman3.org or mailman-users at mailman3.org.

The main question I have is, will mailman-users at mailman3.org be easily
confused with mailman-users at python.org?  While I think it's fine to
(eventually) have Mailman 3 questions on the latter, we don't want Mailman 2.1
questions on the former.

>In the process of working through some other issues, I enabled SSL in Django
>with certificates I got from Let's Encrypt. That has led to a current issue
>which is if a list's archiving is on, I can't post. The post gets shunted in
>archiving because somewhere in the process the runner tries to make an SSL
>connection to 127.0.0.1 and the certificate is only valid for
>lists.mailman3.org, mirror.list.org and mirror.mailman3.org[2]. I'm sure
>there must be a way to change the connect to use lists.mailman3.org, but I
>don't know it.

I thik you're saying the Hyperkitty archiver plugin is crashing because it's
trying to make an SSL connection to Hyperkitty via localhost (127.0.0.1).  I
don't know whether it's possible to run the public HK IP over SSL (a good
thing) and the localhost posting endpoint over http, but it probably doesn't
provide much value to connect the core archiver plugin with HK over https
localhost.

Looking at the HK traceback, I think there are a couple of bugs.  The HK
plugin should probably be defensive about connection errors that don't allow
the request to go through, but I also think the core should be defensive about
crashes in list_url().  It didn't occur to me that asking the archivers for
their list_urls would be an active request that could fail so the crash
percolates up to the pipeline runner and thus you get the shunt.  Should be an
easy fix, though I want to audit the IArchiver calls in the core for other
cases where this can happen.

I'll file bugs on both projects for this.

Cheers,
-Barry

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar 16 11:24:29 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 08:24:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Advice needed on Production MM3 install
In-Reply-To: <56E94802.5030402@serve-me.info>
References: <56E8F0BB.8050500@msapiro.net> <56E94802.5030402@serve-me.info>
Message-ID: <56E97AAD.8070302@msapiro.net>

On 03/16/2016 04:48 AM, Simon Hanna wrote:
> On 03/16/2016 06:35 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>
>> The first question is should it be mailman-users at mailman3.org or
>> mailman-users at mailman3.org. The former is more of a recognition that
>> Mailman 3 is now Mailman while the latter offers less possibility for
>> confusion with mailman-users at python.org. Then, I suppose it could be
>> just users at mailman3.org, but we might want to support other 'users'
>> lists in the future.
> The list names are the same, I guess you misspelled one.


Yes, as Barry notes, I meant mailman3-users at mailman3.org vs
mailman-users at mailman3.org.

That mistake is indicative of how frazzled I am over this whole thing.

The rest of your reply will be quite helpful. Thank you. I'll work on it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Mar 16 11:25:20 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 08:25:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Advice needed on Production MM3 install
In-Reply-To: <20160316102134.7534795a@subdivisions.wooz.org>
References: <56E8F0BB.8050500@msapiro.net>
 <20160316102134.7534795a@subdivisions.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <56E97AE0.3090206@msapiro.net>

On 03/16/2016 07:21 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> 
> I'll file bugs on both projects for this.


Thanks Barry.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From nosikov.konstantin.a at gmail.com  Wed Mar 16 15:34:12 2016
From: nosikov.konstantin.a at gmail.com (Nosikov Konstantin)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 22:34:12 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC Projects Participating
Message-ID: <CAGt-m6gqqLUk-Fmz4PZCAOfoObarMJ808DTKRUL1cBYLJ=T=6g@mail.gmail.com>

Good evening, my name is Nosikov Konstantin. I am studying in ITMO
University (Saint Petersburg) on department of Information Technologies and
Programming.
I am interested in two of suggested projects:
Preset list settings templates (aka list styles)
GitLab/development tools integration
So I'm writing to ask how can I tke part in development process and what
should I do to start this project during SoC?

Little problem is that I dont have much expirience in Python, but, as I
know, Python is easy to learn. I am ready and wish to learn some new things
and Python will be great instance.

Waiting for your answer!
Best wishes,
Konstantin.

??? ????????? ???? ?????????? ? ????????????????? ??????????, ???????????
?????????? Avast.
www.avast.com
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
<#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

From barry at list.org  Thu Mar 17 11:46:33 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 11:46:33 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] Unable to call REST API
 through Java or Postman
In-Reply-To: <CANR7AMJCw6FjtFycaMhkQh-2uZFe7oP8uYVSaX=CSjzWER0Jyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANR7AMJCw6FjtFycaMhkQh-2uZFe7oP8uYVSaX=CSjzWER0Jyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160317114633.3494bca3@subdivisions.wooz.org>

Redirecting to mailman-developers.

On Mar 17, 2016, at 11:56 AM, Rohit Narurkar wrote:

>Now, I am trying to make calls to the REST API through the Rest Template in
>Spring Java, and also through Postman.  In Postman, I am adding 2 key-values
>in the 'headers', Content-Type and Authorization. And I am making a GET
>request to " http://localhost:8001/3.0/domains". Whenever I try this, the
>Mailman stops responding and I do not get any response. I cannot even call
>the REST API through Python until the Postman request is cancelled.

What does the log file say?  Do you get any tracebacks?  You might have to run
pdb to see what's holding things up.

Cheers,
-Barry

From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 17 13:57:14 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 23:27:14 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Correcting the display name in the recipient
 address
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQLVGJX0hHWwmvM6gKxRaDrKbXahJQ7k-_-sPtjMAxNwyA@mail.gmail.com>

This is regarding the solution for issue #194
<https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/issues/194> in mailman-core
The discussion for it can be found in the related merge request here
<https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/merge_requests/104>
As suggested by Barry, the discussion has been shifted here.

Whenever an address is subscribed to a mailing list, we need to assign a
recipient name to the outgoing welcome mail. eg. To: Anne <anne at example.com
>
'Anne' being the recipient name.
Now if the address is subscribed without a display name, we should look for
other options for the display name.

Suppose you have a user with two linked addresses, one of which is the
preferred address. Only the preferred address has a display name, and the
user does not. Now in the scenario where the other linked address(not the
preferred one) is subscribed to a mailing list without providing a display
name, it would be natural to check if the user has a display name, and use
that if it exists. But the user too does not have a display name in this
case. In such a case should we perform a further check and try to use the
preferred address's display name if it exists or simply use an empty string
instead?

In the opinion I gave, in case we are not supplied with a display name, we
should check the user display name followed by the preferred address
display name, and use them in the specified order respectively. If none
exist, empty string would be used.

In a more general scenario, as pointed out by Barry to question this
method, suppose a user has multiple linked addresses, only one of which has
a display name, and its neither the preferred address, nor the subscribed
address. Should the display name search algorithm find that one too, since
it still is a linked address for the user and hence contains valid user
information?

Thanks.

Aditya.

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 17 14:48:25 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 11:48:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New lists at lists.mailman3.org
Message-ID: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net>

I think I've made sufficient progress to ask others to look.

There are two lists: test at mailman3.org and test2 at mailman3.org. Info
pages are at <https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/>.

Subscription to the "test2" list is confirm only. The "test" list is
confirm and moderate. There are public HyperKitty archives, so be
careful what you post.

Note that the login page offers Persona, Google and Yahoo for login, but
only Persona works

Please feel free to subscribe and play. The intent is to set up a
mailman-users at mailman3.org list as soon as we think the installation is
viable, so we need to hammer it some and get some confidence.

Also note that while I have dabbled off and on in the MM3 Core for
literally years now, I know nothing about Postorius or HyperKitty or
Mailman3 administration, so I may have made terrible mistakes. Let me
know what you find.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Mar 17 14:49:19 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 03:49:19 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] ProtonMail opens encrypted mail service to
 public
Message-ID: <22250.64559.538088.263081@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

... according to Tech Republic.  Haven't read the article, but maybe
this is a reason to support signed/encrypted lists project(s).

Steve

From aayush.maini at gmail.com  Thu Mar 17 17:02:08 2016
From: aayush.maini at gmail.com (Aayush Maini)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 02:32:08 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GSOC 2016 - Project Proposal
Message-ID: <CAL2Bf-xT9i+c_7M9JW9VRq7msQA8MQpYmZzQXezLaTpbE4TdWg@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings,

I am Aayush Maini, a student of IIIT-H and I would like to propose an idea
for GSOC 2016, under The GNU Mailman. I have got the build working and
submitted a patch for Postorius currently pending for review. I have worked
on mailman core and have a decent understanding of Postorius too.

The basic proposal goes along viz. "Making the services offered by the
Postorius available via a  browser extension/plugin". I thought it would be
nice to have the functionality offered by the Postorius clubbed into a user
friendly browser plugin.

The main highlights of the plugin could include:

--> User Authentication for identity verification.
--> Managing/Moderating the subscription requests.
--> Managing preferences related to a list.
--> Support for adding owners/moderators.

* The class of users who would be largely benefited from the browser plugin
would be the list owners and moderators.

* The main purpose of the browser plugin would be to provide the
functionality of the web interface via the compactness of the plugin.

* The job of managing the preferences related to a list(s) can be done via
a plugin.

* Provide the list owner a functionality, to manage the subscriptions quite
easily with minimal number of clicks.

This was just a basic layout of the idea on which I thought the project
could be built. I would be glad to discuss the specifications and some
extensions that could be later added based on the review. It would be real
help if someone could guide me on along the lines of this idea. Thanks.

Regards,
Aayush Maini
Pre-Final Year
Computer Science Engineering
IIIT-H

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 17 20:12:52 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 17:12:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New lists at lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net>
References: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56EB4804.6070709@msapiro.net>

On 03/17/2016 11:48 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> I think I've made sufficient progress to ask others to look.


One issue I had was when I had USE_SSL = True in my web settings core
couldn't connect to HyperKitty because it was connecting to 127.0.0.1
and that domain wasn't included in my ssl certificate.

I worked around this by setting USE_SSL = False. This seems OK in that
the web UI doesn't force SSL, but if you come via https: it continues to
use SSL.

Now, I've noticed that in list messages, the List-Archive header is of
the form List-Archive: <http://127.0.0.1/archives/list/...>

I think I could fix both issues if I knew how/where to set this domain
name. Can anyone help?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Mar 18 03:30:58 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 16:30:58 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers]  GSOC 2016 - Project Proposal
In-Reply-To: <CAL2Bf-xT9i+c_7M9JW9VRq7msQA8MQpYmZzQXezLaTpbE4TdWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL2Bf-xT9i+c_7M9JW9VRq7msQA8MQpYmZzQXezLaTpbE4TdWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22251.44722.920075.349466@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Aayush Maini writes:

Welcome!

 > The basic proposal goes along viz. "Making the services offered by
 > the Postorius available via a browser extension/plugin". I thought
 > it would be nice to have the functionality offered by the Postorius
 > clubbed into a user friendly browser plugin.
 > 
 > The main highlights of the plugin could include:
 > 
 > --> User Authentication for identity verification.
 > --> Managing/Moderating the subscription requests.
 > --> Managing preferences related to a list.
 > --> Support for adding owners/moderators.

This is an interesting idea, but Postorius already does all this.
More important, although presently user *authentication* is done via
social auth services (Persona, OpenAuth), *authorization* is done by
Postorius itself on the Mailman server host, not by Mailman core.
Given that you have to go through Postorius in any case, what benefit
do you see from doing it in a browser plugin?

I can think of some possibilities myself, but I'm not very familiar
with browser plugin technology, and worry that it would be browser-
specific (and so not be available to many potential users, unlike
Postorius itself which is pretty much universally accessible).

In any case, promoting your project is your job<wink/>.  But if you
give us some ideas, we can help you understand if they're feasible,
and maybe pick up and run with some of the vaguer ones you propose
(yes, "vague" is acceptable at this stage -- refining ideas is very
much something you can learn effectively from a mentor).

From odhiambo at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 05:25:54 2016
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 12:25:54 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New lists at lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <56EB4804.6070709@msapiro.net>
References: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net> <56EB4804.6070709@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WMnAZeC3WqJ4icgRzFLkKTiMXiXA_TxHz2q92XnHP7Owg@mail.gmail.com>

I try to login to test2 using google and I get Server Error (500).

I can't use persona and I don't wanna use Yahoo!


On 18 March 2016 at 03:12, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 03/17/2016 11:48 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> > I think I've made sufficient progress to ask others to look.
>
>
> One issue I had was when I had USE_SSL = True in my web settings core
> couldn't connect to HyperKitty because it was connecting to 127.0.0.1
> and that domain wasn't included in my ssl certificate.
>
> I worked around this by setting USE_SSL = False. This seems OK in that
> the web UI doesn't force SSL, but if you come via https: it continues to
> use SSL.
>
> Now, I've noticed that in list messages, the List-Archive header is of
> the form List-Archive: <http://127.0.0.1/archives/list/...>
>
> I think I could fix both issues if I knew how/where to set this domain
> name. Can anyone help?
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/odhiambo%40gmail.com
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>



-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223
"Oh, the cruft."

From gurkirpal204 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 07:33:58 2016
From: gurkirpal204 at gmail.com (Gurkirpal Singh)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 17:03:58 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Should the thread-to-issue tool join threads?
Message-ID: <CAPBXt3iT268axtd9Gv1dU8_H76Mg7FoMjOreBgBo=bPhMgO2pQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, I have a little question about the GitLab integration project.

There might be some messages that were not included in the main thread
because the sender sent the message manually by setting the subject as
"RE: Something". Should the tool try to find and include these messages?

From simon.hanna at serve-me.info  Fri Mar 18 08:26:10 2016
From: simon.hanna at serve-me.info (Simon Hanna)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 13:26:10 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New lists at lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <CAAdA2WMnAZeC3WqJ4icgRzFLkKTiMXiXA_TxHz2q92XnHP7Owg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net> <56EB4804.6070709@msapiro.net>
 <CAAdA2WMnAZeC3WqJ4icgRzFLkKTiMXiXA_TxHz2q92XnHP7Owg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56EBF3E2.4090404@serve-me.info>

On 03/18/2016 10:25 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> I try to login to test2 using google and I get Server Error (500).
> 
> I can't use persona and I don't wanna use Yahoo!
citing the previous mail:
> Note that the login page offers Persona, Google and Yahoo for login, but
> only Persona works

Why can't you use persona? It's working for me

From odhiambo at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 08:51:43 2016
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:51:43 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New lists at lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <56EBF3E2.4090404@serve-me.info>
References: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net> <56EB4804.6070709@msapiro.net>
 <CAAdA2WMnAZeC3WqJ4icgRzFLkKTiMXiXA_TxHz2q92XnHP7Owg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56EBF3E2.4090404@serve-me.info>
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WOuZ=HarX1kHE-hCS7LVX5pwoNXp5gCWhj=wyZOF9dyYg@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 March 2016 at 15:26, Simon Hanna <simon.hanna at serve-me.info> wrote:

> On 03/18/2016 10:25 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> > I try to login to test2 using google and I get Server Error (500).
> >
> > I can't use persona and I don't wanna use Yahoo!
> citing the previous mail:
> > Note that the login page offers Persona, Google and Yahoo for login, but
> > only Persona works
>
> Why can't you use persona? It's working for me
>

1. Because I don't have a persona and there is really no point for me
getting one since it's headed for closure.
2. I have google.



-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223
"Oh, the cruft."

From f at florianfuchs.com  Fri Mar 18 08:56:35 2016
From: f at florianfuchs.com (Florian Fuchs)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 13:56:35 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New lists at lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <CAAdA2WOuZ=HarX1kHE-hCS7LVX5pwoNXp5gCWhj=wyZOF9dyYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net> <56EB4804.6070709@msapiro.net>
 <CAAdA2WMnAZeC3WqJ4icgRzFLkKTiMXiXA_TxHz2q92XnHP7Owg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56EBF3E2.4090404@serve-me.info>
 <CAAdA2WOuZ=HarX1kHE-hCS7LVX5pwoNXp5gCWhj=wyZOF9dyYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42999bdd-741b-41df-a800-4c0041a320d1@email.android.com>



On 18. M?rz 2016 13:51:43 MEZ, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo at gmail.com> wrote:
>On 18 March 2016 at 15:26, Simon Hanna <simon.hanna at serve-me.info>
>wrote:
>
>> On 03/18/2016 10:25 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
>> > I try to login to test2 using google and I get Server Error (500).
>> >
>> > I can't use persona and I don't wanna use Yahoo!
>> citing the previous mail:
>> > Note that the login page offers Persona, Google and Yahoo for
>login, but
>> > only Persona works
>>
>> Why can't you use persona? It's working for me
>>
>
>1. Because I don't have a persona and there is really no point for me
>getting one since it's headed for closure.
>2. I have google.

You can use your Gmail address to sign in with Persona. No additional account necessary.

Cheers,
Florian






From odhiambo at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 09:16:15 2016
From: odhiambo at gmail.com (Odhiambo Washington)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 16:16:15 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New lists at lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <42999bdd-741b-41df-a800-4c0041a320d1@email.android.com>
References: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net> <56EB4804.6070709@msapiro.net>
 <CAAdA2WMnAZeC3WqJ4icgRzFLkKTiMXiXA_TxHz2q92XnHP7Owg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56EBF3E2.4090404@serve-me.info>
 <CAAdA2WOuZ=HarX1kHE-hCS7LVX5pwoNXp5gCWhj=wyZOF9dyYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <42999bdd-741b-41df-a800-4c0041a320d1@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CAAdA2WOGHY36wcBx+Nj9POS8Ztmd0ZZ7BzLroG_72coEct32yg@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 March 2016 at 15:56, Florian Fuchs <f at florianfuchs.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 18. M?rz 2016 13:51:43 MEZ, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On 18 March 2016 at 15:26, Simon Hanna <simon.hanna at serve-me.info>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> On 03/18/2016 10:25 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> >> > I try to login to test2 using google and I get Server Error (500).
> >> >
> >> > I can't use persona and I don't wanna use Yahoo!
> >> citing the previous mail:
> >> > Note that the login page offers Persona, Google and Yahoo for
> >login, but
> >> > only Persona works
> >>
> >> Why can't you use persona? It's working for me
> >>
> >
> >1. Because I don't have a persona and there is really no point for me
> >getting one since it's headed for closure.
> >2. I have google.
>
> You can use your Gmail address to sign in with Persona. No additional
> account necessary.
>
> Cheers,
> Florian
>
>
Thanks, Florian, but why should I go that way when there is a link to sign
in with google, which I already have?
I have gone ahead and done that anyway, since I am curious about MM3.

Are there people who have installed MM3 on FreeBSD? And integrated with
Exim?
I think Turnbull has his running with Exim, but on Linux.

I'd love to have someone share their notes on installation on FreeBSD.



-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223
"Oh, the cruft."

From simon.hanna at serve-me.info  Fri Mar 18 09:42:31 2016
From: simon.hanna at serve-me.info (Simon Hanna)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 14:42:31 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New lists at lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <CAAdA2WOGHY36wcBx+Nj9POS8Ztmd0ZZ7BzLroG_72coEct32yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net> <56EB4804.6070709@msapiro.net>
 <CAAdA2WMnAZeC3WqJ4icgRzFLkKTiMXiXA_TxHz2q92XnHP7Owg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56EBF3E2.4090404@serve-me.info>
 <CAAdA2WOuZ=HarX1kHE-hCS7LVX5pwoNXp5gCWhj=wyZOF9dyYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <42999bdd-741b-41df-a800-4c0041a320d1@email.android.com>
 <CAAdA2WOGHY36wcBx+Nj9POS8Ztmd0ZZ7BzLroG_72coEct32yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56EC05C7.5000602@serve-me.info>

> Thanks, Florian, but why should I go that way when there is a link to sign
> in with google, which I already have?
> I have gone ahead and done that anyway, since I am curious about MM3.
This server is not yet fully operational. That's why currently only persona works.
> Are there people who have installed MM3 on FreeBSD? And integrated with
> Exim?
There was a merge adding something about exim, so it should work. Search the the archives and
mailman docs.

From barry at list.org  Fri Mar 18 09:52:29 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 09:52:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New lists at lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net>
References: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20160318095229.61688974@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 17, 2016, at 11:48 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>There are two lists: test at mailman3.org and test2 at mailman3.org. Info
>pages are at <https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/>.

Thanks Mark, this so far looks great.  I was able to pretty easily login via
Persona (after a password reset), then subscribed to test2, with test awaiting
moderator approval.  I could post to the list via HK and email.

I noticed some weirdness and crashes in Postorius and will submit bugs as
appropriate.

There are definitely things about the core that can be improved, and now that
we have a working system, I'll continue to hammer on improvements, bug fixes,
and reviewing/landing merge proposals.

This is great, thanks!
-Barry
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From jonax at openmailbox.org  Fri Mar 18 13:29:57 2016
From: jonax at openmailbox.org (Jonas)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 18:29:57 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC Project: pgp plugin
In-Reply-To: <22228.44751.314201.936153@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <56D1EC55.60909@openmailbox.org>
 <CAF2AkX=7t57C_4MV098xzRqvHjcVTpoxefRjs0XwLa_Lf1TG5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56D42559.5010202@openmailbox.org>
 <22228.44751.314201.936153@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <56EC3B15.5040909@openmailbox.org>

Thank you Stephen.

I agree with your points and I will make sure to clearly document any
potential security pitfalls of the system for the users and to write a
detailed and precise design plan that has special emphasis on security
implications before I start coding this project.

However, at the moment I'm in the middle of writing my Project Proposal.
May I send you a draft along with personal questions?
And/Or Abhilash Raj, may I send you those?

To make a first impression, I thought about writing a general blog post
on the state of mailinglist/group communication encryption that covers
the efforts toward encrypted lists in mailman. Could that work as a
first impression instead of fixing a bug in mailman? The easier ones
seem to get patched faster than I can catch up.

Thank you again,
Jonas

On 29.02.2016 21:49, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Jonas writes:
> 
>  > On 28.02.2016 10:30, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
>  > > End-to-end encryption or signature or both seems to be the right
>  > > thing.
>  > 
>  > The concept of a mailserver doesn't allow real end-to-end encryption if
>  > each recipient uses a different keypair.
> 
> It's true that keeping things secret from the server would be hard,
> but at least in theory it would be possible to avoid decryption in
> normal operation by having the originator use a "session key" and a
> symmetric algorithm to do the actual encryption, and then using the
> user's PGP key to encrypt the session key.  Then all you need to do is
> decrypt the session key and reencrypt it with the user's (or users')
> key(s).
> 
> If possible (I mean I suspect it requires privacy software that
> doesn't currently exist) this would be nice because you don't have to
> worry about having copies of decrypted text in memory, in swap, and in
> temporary files.[1]  Of course this would mean that such an MLM could
> not decorate the mail with header or footer, but you probably should
> not do that anyway because of limitations of MUAs and users in
> displaying/interpreting indications of what portions of a message are
> secure.
> 
>  > Considering that all subscribers recieve the mail and usually
>  > listserver admins are subscribers theirselves,
> 
> In security, you either need to take care of the unusual case, or
> document that the case is not covered.  Wouldn't you rather have a
> short list of "you can't use my software in these cases: ..."?
> 
>  > I think than an implementation where the listserver recieves a copy
>  > as well definitly has some uses.
> 
> Copy of the encrypted message, maybe, although I would argue that
> archiving should default to off for an encrypted list.  But decrypted,
> I disagree strongly, and would do my best to block integration of such
> a feature (it's Barry's call in the end, not mine).  If you really
> want the server to have a decrypted copy, that is easily enough
> accomplished by subscribing a decryption program to the list.  Our
> goal should be to do our best to reduce the additional attack surface
> presented by the MLM by default, and leave the users to their own
> devices in reducing security and increasing risk.
> 
>  > Users would have to be aware that the privacy of communication
>  > relies on the protection of the listserver and listserver admins
>  > would have to be aware that they need to protect the lists keypair.
> 
> If there's anything we know about users, it's that they only learn
> about security when they experience harm from lack of it, and even
> then few actually do anything effective about it.[2]  Admins have
> enough to worry about without drawing an arrow labeled "attack here"
> on their system (running an encrypted list already paints a bullseye
> on it).  Whenever possible, we want random clueless behavior to *not*
> result in a security hole.  So yes, the private keys must be
> protected.  But as much as possible we should try to ensure that if
> the list server is compromised, the communications are not.
> 
>  >> [Automated key generation is out] of scope for one summer IMHO.
>  >> It's not obvious what the security implications are.  Better to do
>  >> key generation off-line.
> 
>  > What security implications are you refering to? Some servers have
>  > true hardware rngs. If there isn't enough entropy, no keys should
>  > generate with /dev/random as entropy source.  Having the proper
>  > crypto libraries and random number sources is in the responsibility
>  > of the user.
> 
> I'm not talking about the availability of these basic facilities.  If
> the system doesn't have them, none of the necessary crypto facilities
> will be available from Python anyway.  I'm talking about the
> introduction of unnecessary complexity.  I don't know offhand how to
> attack it.  I'm saying that before we introduce additional complexity
> we need to be pretty sure that it's hard to attack.
> 
> If you want to do this, you need to learn the security mindset[3].
> Otherwise, you're very likely going to leave behind bugs that someday
> will bite somebody who is earnestly trying to do the right thing.
> 
> Back in the day, I set the config on Smail 3.1.0.99 to block outside-
> to-outside relays, as recommended by the documentation.  I was shocked
> to be informed a few weeks later that my box was being used as an open
> relay.  Guess what?  They documented that feature, but the
> implementation was a stub until 3.1.0.101.
> 
>  > With this concept, there will be a private key on the listserver and
>  > this should be clear to the users. It has security implications but I
>  > think they are admissible.
> 
> Of course there has to be a private key usable by the list server
> because the whole purpose of the exercise is to avoid distribution of
> all keys to all subscribers.  But stealing the keys is only one of the
> many ways to get past a lock.  We need to protect the hinges on the
> other side of the door, too.  The most effective way to do that is to
> ensure they're not exposed in the first place.
> 
>  > > What does "trusted" mean?
> 
>  > Trusted means that the key has been marked as trusted by an authority
>  > (list admin).
> 
> OK.
> 
>  > I'm not exactly sure what a threat model is.
> 
> Find out!  It's more than just a few random scenarios, I'll tell you
> that much.
> 
>  > But a scenario this would protect from is eavesdropping on list
>  > communication by a mailserver
> 
> How about one run by a subscriber?
> 
>  > ? or anyone in case inter-mailserver communication or access to a
>  > mailbox isn't properly secured.
> 
> You can assume that SMTP is unlikely to be secured.  TLS is more
> common nowadays but hardly universal.
> 
> What makes you think that users won't save decrypted messages?  You
> need to document that as a threat and exclude it from those you can
> protect against.
> 
>  > I don't understand, why would documentation be impossible?
> 
> Users have a habit of assuming that "secure" (or whatever favorable
> adjective is involved) applies to their use case.  You need to be able
> to describe the threats that are and are not defended against in
> detail and very clearly.
> 
> For example, one use case that has been brought up in the past is a
> mailing list that contains private conversations among a group of
> patients and the group therapist.  But you can expect that in the case
> of a multi-therapist clinic, they will want to share a single server
> with a professional administrator.  That server's admin presumably has
> access to the list keys, but you don't want that in this use case, not
> even if she is one of the therapists.
> 
> Thus, you need to make it clear that this scenario (a server admin who
> should not have access to the privileged conversations) is *not*
> included in *your* threat model.  Server admins are necessarily
> trusted, and excluded as sources of security breaches.  If you don't
> clearly specify that threat model in your design, you're not going to
> be able to document it well enough for users to understand.
> 
> 
> Footnotes: 
> [1]  Think "the disk was stolen".  Private keys on that disk?  Not
> necessarily.  What?  That wasn't part of your threat model?  Better
> say so!
> 
> [2]  Consider how many people continue to use Windows!
> 
> [3]  https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/03/the_security_mi_1.html
> 


From raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 18:17:13 2016
From: raj.abhilash1 at gmail.com (Abhilash Raj)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:17:13 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC Project: pgp plugin
In-Reply-To: <56EC3B15.5040909@openmailbox.org>
References: <56D1EC55.60909@openmailbox.org>
 <CAF2AkX=7t57C_4MV098xzRqvHjcVTpoxefRjs0XwLa_Lf1TG5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56D42559.5010202@openmailbox.org>
 <22228.44751.314201.936153@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <56EC3B15.5040909@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <56EC7E69.8060609@gmail.com>

Hi Jonas,

On 03/18/2016 10:29 AM, Jonas wrote:
> Thank you Stephen.
> 
> I agree with your points and I will make sure to clearly document any
> potential security pitfalls of the system for the users and to write a
> detailed and precise design plan that has special emphasis on security
> implications before I start coding this project.

Great!

> However, at the moment I'm in the middle of writing my Project Proposal.
> May I send you a draft along with personal questions?
> And/Or Abhilash Raj, may I send you those?

I guess you can upload drafts of proposal (in google docs) on GSoC's
website and we all mentors can have a look at it/comment on it if needed.

> 
> To make a first impression, I thought about writing a general blog post
> on the state of mailinglist/group communication encryption that covers
> the efforts toward encrypted lists in mailman. Could that work as a
> first impression instead of fixing a bug in mailman? The easier ones
> seem to get patched faster than I can catch up.

We need you to fix one easy bug so as to judge your capability to
actually implement the proposal that you are proposing. Although, we
have mandated one patch towards your application, a small documentation
patch and some of your previous patches to different projects
(preferably, but not required, in Python) could work. Does that sound
good? I can point you to several places we need more documentation ;-)

> Thank you again,
> Jonas
> 
> On 29.02.2016 21:49, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>> Jonas writes:
>>
>>  > On 28.02.2016 10:30, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>>
>>  > > End-to-end encryption or signature or both seems to be the right
>>  > > thing.
>>  > 
>>  > The concept of a mailserver doesn't allow real end-to-end encryption if
>>  > each recipient uses a different keypair.
>>
>> It's true that keeping things secret from the server would be hard,
>> but at least in theory it would be possible to avoid decryption in
>> normal operation by having the originator use a "session key" and a
>> symmetric algorithm to do the actual encryption, and then using the
>> user's PGP key to encrypt the session key.  Then all you need to do is
>> decrypt the session key and reencrypt it with the user's (or users')
>> key(s).
>>
>> If possible (I mean I suspect it requires privacy software that
>> doesn't currently exist) this would be nice because you don't have to
>> worry about having copies of decrypted text in memory, in swap, and in
>> temporary files.[1]  Of course this would mean that such an MLM could
>> not decorate the mail with header or footer, but you probably should
>> not do that anyway because of limitations of MUAs and users in
>> displaying/interpreting indications of what portions of a message are
>> secure.
>>
>>  > Considering that all subscribers recieve the mail and usually
>>  > listserver admins are subscribers theirselves,
>>
>> In security, you either need to take care of the unusual case, or
>> document that the case is not covered.  Wouldn't you rather have a
>> short list of "you can't use my software in these cases: ..."?
>>
>>  > I think than an implementation where the listserver recieves a copy
>>  > as well definitly has some uses.
>>
>> Copy of the encrypted message, maybe, although I would argue that
>> archiving should default to off for an encrypted list.  But decrypted,
>> I disagree strongly, and would do my best to block integration of such
>> a feature (it's Barry's call in the end, not mine).  If you really
>> want the server to have a decrypted copy, that is easily enough
>> accomplished by subscribing a decryption program to the list.  Our
>> goal should be to do our best to reduce the additional attack surface
>> presented by the MLM by default, and leave the users to their own
>> devices in reducing security and increasing risk.
>>
>>  > Users would have to be aware that the privacy of communication
>>  > relies on the protection of the listserver and listserver admins
>>  > would have to be aware that they need to protect the lists keypair.
>>
>> If there's anything we know about users, it's that they only learn
>> about security when they experience harm from lack of it, and even
>> then few actually do anything effective about it.[2]  Admins have
>> enough to worry about without drawing an arrow labeled "attack here"
>> on their system (running an encrypted list already paints a bullseye
>> on it).  Whenever possible, we want random clueless behavior to *not*
>> result in a security hole.  So yes, the private keys must be
>> protected.  But as much as possible we should try to ensure that if
>> the list server is compromised, the communications are not.
>>
>>  >> [Automated key generation is out] of scope for one summer IMHO.
>>  >> It's not obvious what the security implications are.  Better to do
>>  >> key generation off-line.
>>
>>  > What security implications are you refering to? Some servers have
>>  > true hardware rngs. If there isn't enough entropy, no keys should
>>  > generate with /dev/random as entropy source.  Having the proper
>>  > crypto libraries and random number sources is in the responsibility
>>  > of the user.
>>
>> I'm not talking about the availability of these basic facilities.  If
>> the system doesn't have them, none of the necessary crypto facilities
>> will be available from Python anyway.  I'm talking about the
>> introduction of unnecessary complexity.  I don't know offhand how to
>> attack it.  I'm saying that before we introduce additional complexity
>> we need to be pretty sure that it's hard to attack.
>>
>> If you want to do this, you need to learn the security mindset[3].
>> Otherwise, you're very likely going to leave behind bugs that someday
>> will bite somebody who is earnestly trying to do the right thing.
>>
>> Back in the day, I set the config on Smail 3.1.0.99 to block outside-
>> to-outside relays, as recommended by the documentation.  I was shocked
>> to be informed a few weeks later that my box was being used as an open
>> relay.  Guess what?  They documented that feature, but the
>> implementation was a stub until 3.1.0.101.
>>
>>  > With this concept, there will be a private key on the listserver and
>>  > this should be clear to the users. It has security implications but I
>>  > think they are admissible.
>>
>> Of course there has to be a private key usable by the list server
>> because the whole purpose of the exercise is to avoid distribution of
>> all keys to all subscribers.  But stealing the keys is only one of the
>> many ways to get past a lock.  We need to protect the hinges on the
>> other side of the door, too.  The most effective way to do that is to
>> ensure they're not exposed in the first place.
>>
>>  > > What does "trusted" mean?
>>
>>  > Trusted means that the key has been marked as trusted by an authority
>>  > (list admin).
>>
>> OK.
>>
>>  > I'm not exactly sure what a threat model is.
>>
>> Find out!  It's more than just a few random scenarios, I'll tell you
>> that much.
>>
>>  > But a scenario this would protect from is eavesdropping on list
>>  > communication by a mailserver
>>
>> How about one run by a subscriber?
>>
>>  > ? or anyone in case inter-mailserver communication or access to a
>>  > mailbox isn't properly secured.
>>
>> You can assume that SMTP is unlikely to be secured.  TLS is more
>> common nowadays but hardly universal.
>>
>> What makes you think that users won't save decrypted messages?  You
>> need to document that as a threat and exclude it from those you can
>> protect against.
>>
>>  > I don't understand, why would documentation be impossible?
>>
>> Users have a habit of assuming that "secure" (or whatever favorable
>> adjective is involved) applies to their use case.  You need to be able
>> to describe the threats that are and are not defended against in
>> detail and very clearly.
>>
>> For example, one use case that has been brought up in the past is a
>> mailing list that contains private conversations among a group of
>> patients and the group therapist.  But you can expect that in the case
>> of a multi-therapist clinic, they will want to share a single server
>> with a professional administrator.  That server's admin presumably has
>> access to the list keys, but you don't want that in this use case, not
>> even if she is one of the therapists.
>>
>> Thus, you need to make it clear that this scenario (a server admin who
>> should not have access to the privileged conversations) is *not*
>> included in *your* threat model.  Server admins are necessarily
>> trusted, and excluded as sources of security breaches.  If you don't
>> clearly specify that threat model in your design, you're not going to
>> be able to document it well enough for users to understand.
>>
>>
>> Footnotes: 
>> [1]  Think "the disk was stolen".  Private keys on that disk?  Not
>> necessarily.  What?  That wasn't part of your threat model?  Better
>> say so!
>>
>> [2]  Consider how many people continue to use Windows!
>>
>> [3]  https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/03/the_security_mi_1.html
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/raj.abhilash1%40gmail.com
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> 

-- 
thanks,
Abhilash Raj

From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Mar 18 23:19:31 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 12:19:31 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New lists at lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <20160318095229.61688974@subdivisions.wooz.org>
References: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net>
 <20160318095229.61688974@subdivisions.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <22252.50499.882081.944365@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Barry Warsaw writes:

 > I noticed some weirdness and crashes in Postorius and will submit bugs as
 > appropriate.

Bugs go where?  That is, these could be Postorius bugs or just kinks
in Mark's configuration so far (ok, crashes == uncaught Exceptions, I
hope?! aren't configuration bugs, they're real bugs).

For now I'll submit @Postorius, at least some of the weirdness I see
is clearly Postorius-level.

Steve

From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Mar 18 23:22:33 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 12:22:33 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC Project: pgp plugin
In-Reply-To: <56EC7E69.8060609@gmail.com>
References: <56D1EC55.60909@openmailbox.org>
 <CAF2AkX=7t57C_4MV098xzRqvHjcVTpoxefRjs0XwLa_Lf1TG5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56D42559.5010202@openmailbox.org>
 <22228.44751.314201.936153@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <56EC3B15.5040909@openmailbox.org> <56EC7E69.8060609@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22252.50681.106635.210294@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Abhilash Raj writes:

Thanks for picking this up, Abhilash!

Jonas writes:

 > > However, at the moment I'm in the middle of writing my Project Proposal.
 > > May I send you a draft along with personal questions?

If you mean do I like cats, I don't see what that has to do with
GSoC. ;-)  If you mean specific to your proposal, no, it doesn't work
that way.  Mentors aren't tutors, and your proposal isn't to one or
more potential mentors, it's to the project.  The project decides what
proposals to accept, subject to mentor availability.  The project
decides whether your design is appropriate, whether your code is
effective, complete, and so on.  Once a mentor is assigned, he or she
is responsible as the front-line delegate of the project to manage
your work, to help you with work processes, and the backstop to ensure
that technical questions are answered quickly.

On the other hand, most technology and project process questions can
be answered by any developer, and GSoC questions by any mentor.  So in
general you can post any Mailman questions here.  GSoC questions can
be asked on the GSoC "general" or "students" mailing lists, or here.
Note that everybody in open source is stretched very thin during GSoC
applications; asking questions in the right place is much more likely
to get you good answers quickly.  If you need authoritative answers on
GSoC, Stephanie and Cat monitor the GSoC lists so you will get useful
answers there.

If you're worried that other students will benefit from your questions
and our answers -- this is open source, giving others the benefit of
our work is the point of what we're doing!  It's not just altruistic;
there are mechanisms for compensating you.  You still get credit for
(1) openness itself and (2) working with us.  If somebody steals your
ball and runs off with it, they had better be just as cooperative and
open or they lose points (and either way, you still maintain an edge
due to being first in and getting things rolling).

 > > And/Or Abhilash Raj, may I send you those?
 > 
 > I guess you can upload drafts of proposal (in google docs) on
  > GSoC's website and we all mentors can have a look at it/comment on
 > it if needed.

Please do register and upload a draft as soon as possible, even if
very incomplete.  The Google SoC system is all-new this year, and has
been distinctly slow the last day or two since student applications
opened.  I don't expect it to crash, but if it does, *it is not an
excuse for not being registered*!  That's Google policy; if you don't
have an application on file by the deadline date, you *cannot* become
a GSoC intern.  We have zero input to this policy.  OTOH, we can work
around incompleteness in the event of system problems.

I haven't seen the student UI, but I've heard that you can mark your
proposal "draft" (or maybe you have to mark it "final", which amounts
to the same thing).  So you don't have to worry that an incomplete
draft will count against you (in Mailman, we don't make judgments
until applications close in any case).

If the draft seems *wrong* in some place, we'll let you know about
that quickly.  If it's still incomplete on 3/22 or so, we'll ping you
about that.

 > > To make a first impression, I thought about writing a general
 > > blog post on the state of mailinglist/group communication
 > > encryption that covers the efforts toward encrypted lists in
 > > mailman.

That's a good idea in itself, but not a substitute for a patch.

 > > Could that work as a first impression instead of fixing
 > > a bug in mailman? The easier ones seem to get patched faster than
 > > I can catch up.
 > 
 > We need you to fix one easy bug so as to judge your capability to
 > actually implement the proposal that you are proposing.

That's somewhat inaccurate.  The reasons you need to fix a *Mailman*
bug are

1.  You have to post a merge request, which means
2.  you know a little bit about our Gitlab repos, and
3.  a little bit about Gitlab, and
4.  have a Gitlab account.

That might not be a problem for you, but we've had issues in the past
where the student floundered for a couple weeks midproject with the
registration and submission procedure.

To judge implementation ability, other projects you've done or
contributed to are valid evidence, of course, as long as you can point
us to the code.

 > I can point you to several places we need more documentation ;-)

I don't care who does it (Abhilash direct-to-tracker, or Abhilash-to-
Jonas-to-tracker), but please make sure all are filed on the tracker.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Mar 18 23:23:48 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 12:23:48 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New lists at lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <CAAdA2WOGHY36wcBx+Nj9POS8Ztmd0ZZ7BzLroG_72coEct32yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net> <56EB4804.6070709@msapiro.net>
 <CAAdA2WMnAZeC3WqJ4icgRzFLkKTiMXiXA_TxHz2q92XnHP7Owg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56EBF3E2.4090404@serve-me.info>
 <CAAdA2WOuZ=HarX1kHE-hCS7LVX5pwoNXp5gCWhj=wyZOF9dyYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <42999bdd-741b-41df-a800-4c0041a320d1@email.android.com>
 <CAAdA2WOGHY36wcBx+Nj9POS8Ztmd0ZZ7BzLroG_72coEct32yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22252.50756.731170.636385@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Odhiambo Washington writes:

 > Thanks, Florian, but why should I go that way when there is a link to sign
 > in with google, which I already have?

Because the mailman3.org system is in beta (to be generous).  Google
sign-in is "supposed" to work, but doesn't.  Try going through
Persona with your Google account, as Simon suggested.  Worked for me.

 > Are there people who have installed MM3 on FreeBSD? And integrated
 > with Exim?

 > I think Turnbull has his running with Exim, but on Linux.

I got it running but that was a long time ago, pre-release (and
pre-persona), and for a limited-time low-traffic list.  Since then
I've not had time to upgrade, and Postorius/HyperKitty weren't tested
at all except for mass subscribe IIRC (although I might even have done
that by mailman.client, as it was called then).

I see no reason why the Exim integration would change:
https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/blob/master/src/mailman/docs/MTA.rst#exim
As far as I can recall the MM3_UID and MM3_GID are no-ops, as Mailman
3 communicates entirely by sockets.  Exim has no need to know.  (The
variables are a holdover from Mailman 2 where pipes are used, so Exim
needs to run Mailman with the appropriate privileges IIRC.)

 > I'd love to have someone share their notes on installation on
 > FreeBSD.

Mailman core really shouldn't be OS-specific (except to the extent
that a supported MTA and Python are available).  All communication
takes place via (Unix-domain) sockets.

I'm not sure that things won't be a little hairier for HyperKitty and
Postorius, but again, as long as Python runs, they should work the
same on any system that supports sockets (that's one of the advantages
of the current architecture -- zeroconf, not yet, but configuration is
getting easier).

The only thing I can think of that might be vendor-specific is the
location of Mailman itself, but at this point in time I see no reason
to install it anywhere but /usr/local.

The real problems that people have are plain ol' bugs.


From vinaymundada27 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 01:16:40 2016
From: vinaymundada27 at gmail.com (Vinay Mundada)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 10:46:40 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pushing branch to origin
Message-ID: <CAJ5MB4ASPvhObXyRp=jeNmkHDQnZak-3J6L+7WuCh7bVG-nV2w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, this is Vinay Mundada and I am trying to apply for GSoC at Mailman.

I was solving this issue #109 on postorius, but then when i tried to push
my branch to origin it said "GitLab: You are not allowed to push code to
this project."

How should I go about then?


*Thanks & Regards,*
*Vinay Mundada*

From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 01:56:39 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 11:26:39 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Basic workflow of the ARC implementation
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQKAapjL2B6zcZ77EqHYsC78DgXgLm+U-Rs3i0=Q7hjWjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQLDcHfLiR3r5Z6T21OAhHXE+sWFU7MZ+vipn06j9O96vw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22236.10180.832824.471865@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQLASR3v5gvfu+CYcjTST02+PG9dQmXzXgwF8tmW=xa6gQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22244.16984.298509.789130@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQJsoOzZpvtp7WSG08UXSNDs9gWSae5X1g1N_iX=cS3dwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <22245.22193.340378.521847@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQ+ax-nb4GrwDTLncfqvJKwBshH36Ki5zvxKpMOvW2tcuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22246.11311.937739.38846@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQJ+ma-XAJN9AHvmBQ=XnC+Nr+c-wUnhy8-kfuoNEmsZEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAQRvQLHXNCxR5wHf-torcuCLEq6ZBpn7Sak00G56n0hqrF7Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22248.10310.506687.261814@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQKAapjL2B6zcZ77EqHYsC78DgXgLm+U-Rs3i0=Q7hjWjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQKWi1Nz5=cN=OqXsZm8YKfq2LvoCHUPM6QMknq+4d77bA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Steve,

After reading the recent mails it seems that I should have submitted the
draft on the gsoc website.
I shall do the same immediately :)


Aditya



On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 10:04 PM, Aditya Divekar <adityadivekar03 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Steve,
>
> I went ahead and drafted a rough proposal as you advised.
> I've included the schedule with the deadlines in the proposal, and
> mentioned the dates with the purpose of giving an approximate idea of how
> the project will be executed.
> The link to the proposal is attached below, and it would be great if you
> could put in your comments in the proposal regarding any opinion that you
> have of it.
>
> Proposal
> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dxf_8bdhHkIGJPNsLQy4qdBWxgHQP8ARvZUupR2zN6s/edit?usp=sharing>
>
>
> I haven't submitted this docs link in the summer of code page yet, as I
> would like to get your review first regarding it.
>
> Also,
>
>>
>> I'm going to be out of circulation for another 36 hours or so.  I did
>> want to comment on your new milestones but have other things to take
>> care of so it will have to wait.
>>
>>
> Yes, we could discuss the milestones and depending on the discussion I can
> modify the proposal before its final submission.
>
>
>
>> You haven't mentioned other applications.  Google rules allow up to 5,
>> to different projects with one organization or to multiple
>> organzations.  I recommend against submitting more than 3 as a waste
>> of your energy and probably will detract from your evaluation on all
>> of them.  But nobody's feelings will be hurt if you do submit to other
>> organizations.  I would appreciate knowing as early as possible if you
>> have other prospects (in or out of GSoC).  This will not affect your
>> evaluation in Mailman.
>>
>
> I will be submitting only one proposal, that is in Mailman. Actually, I
> haven't yet been able to find any other projects suitably interesting for
> submitting a proposal.
> So Mailman will remain as the top priority submission for me!
> Also, I will be having my college summer vacations from mid May to July
> end, and have no prior commitments for this period, and in August since
> college will have just reopened I will have enough time to work on the
> project.
>
> I did not know if the proposal is to be CC'ed to the mailing list at this
> stage, and since the previous mail did not CC the mailing list, I have
> followed suit. Hope its not a problem :)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Aditya.
>

From harshitbansal2015 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 02:54:20 2016
From: harshitbansal2015 at gmail.com (Harshit Bansal)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 12:24:20 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pushing branch to origin
Message-ID: <CAGV4MTGXUicO5oiCFS8PbCJSdV0s40VLvZw2=PzsFz8pnv0UqA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi vinay,
Have you setup your remotes correctly as mentioned in:
http://wiki.list.org/DEV/HowToContributeGit

You can check your remote by this command:
git remote -v

It must show your fork as origin. If it doesn't show your fork as origin
then you must setup remotes correctly as mentioned in the guide. You can
use git remote rename command to rename your remotes.
You should always push to your fork and then create a merge request.

Regards,
Harshit Bansal.

From harshitbansal2015 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 05:37:02 2016
From: harshitbansal2015 at gmail.com (Harshit Bansal)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 15:07:02 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pushing branch to origin
In-Reply-To: <CAJ5MB4BCJ=WVDb9g860d26V=UwL1Nv+D_zpizhOd+SR3LuiObA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGV4MTGXUicO5oiCFS8PbCJSdV0s40VLvZw2=PzsFz8pnv0UqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ5MB4BCJ=WVDb9g860d26V=UwL1Nv+D_zpizhOd+SR3LuiObA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGV4MTEnG7fEfpTZhpUCRmcmfoYYfRnZ9-70aMxThMyf-OBuKA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Vinay,

On 3/19/16, Vinay Mundada <vinaymundada27 at gmail.com> wrote:

> git remote -v gives me this:
> origin git at gitlab.com:mailman/postorius.git (fetch)
> origin git at gitlab.com:mailman/postorius.git (push)
>
> But I have followed the exact steps while doing the setup.

Instead of cloning from your fork(as mentioned in the guide), you seem
to have cloned from Mailman project's master branch.

> So now to what do I change my remote name to?

You can perform these steps:
1: Rename origin to upstream.(git rename origin upstream)
2: Add new remote origin.(git remote add origin
git at gitlab.com:<username>/mailmam.git)(If you want then you can copy
exact SSH url from your fork's GitLab page.)
3: Push your branch to origin.(git push origin <branch_name>
4: Create a Merge Request.

 Hope it helps.

Regards,
Harshit Bansal.


> On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 12:24 PM, Harshit Bansal <
> harshitbansal2015 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi vinay,
>> Have you setup your remotes correctly as mentioned in:
>> http://wiki.list.org/DEV/HowToContributeGit
>>
>> You can check your remote by this command:
>> git remote -v
>>
>> It must show your fork as origin. If it doesn't show your fork as origin
>> then you must setup remotes correctly as mentioned in the guide. You can
>> use git remote rename command to rename your remotes.
>> You should always push to your fork and then create a merge request.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Harshit Bansal.
>>
>

From barry at list.org  Sat Mar 19 11:22:51 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 11:22:51 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New lists at lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <22252.50499.882081.944365@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net>
 <20160318095229.61688974@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22252.50499.882081.944365@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20160319112251.511c30ec@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 19, 2016, at 12:19 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

>Bugs go where?
>
>For now I'll submit @Postorius, at least some of the weirdness I see is
>clearly Postorius-level.

Yes, and @HK for bugs in the archiver, but I want to wait until Mark is
running everything on the latest git master branches.

Cheers,
-Barry
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From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Mar 19 12:46:31 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 09:46:31 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New lists at lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <20160319112251.511c30ec@subdivisions.wooz.org>
References: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net>
 <20160318095229.61688974@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22252.50499.882081.944365@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160319112251.511c30ec@subdivisions.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <56ED8267.3040409@msapiro.net>

On 03/19/2016 08:22 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> 
> Yes, and @HK for bugs in the archiver, but I want to wait until Mark is
> running everything on the latest git master branches.


We are now there + two as yet unmerged fixes:
https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/merge_requests/117
https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/merge_requests/22

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Mar 19 12:53:42 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 09:53:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New lists at lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <56ED8267.3040409@msapiro.net>
References: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net>
 <20160318095229.61688974@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22252.50499.882081.944365@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160319112251.511c30ec@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56ED8267.3040409@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56ED8416.4080703@msapiro.net>

On 03/19/2016 09:46 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> We are now there + two as yet unmerged fixes:
> https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/merge_requests/117
> https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/merge_requests/22


and the import mentioned at
https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/issues/112 is in too.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From mabhi684 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 20 06:36:53 2016
From: mabhi684 at gmail.com (Abhinav Mishra)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 16:06:53 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Preset list settings templates -GSOC
Message-ID: <2BDBFA75-9457-4A90-A95B-D799FC2A91F0@gmail.com>

Hi,I am a third year Engineering student and had been working on django and python for almost 3 years. My biggest project is developing a hospital web application which is funded by my college. I would like to know the Details of above project and would need some help while drafting the proposal.

Thanks

From wxping715 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 20 07:58:13 2016
From: wxping715 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?57+B5a2m5bmz?=)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 19:58:13 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Willing to contribute to GitLab/development
 tools integration project in GSoC
Message-ID: <CA+bOgKTCDGVJ5DiXx8+qndZot+aqqADeqEb8hLVY5hD7yMjmvA@mail.gmail.com>

I am through the GSoC in 2016 and find GitLab/development tools integration
<http://wiki.list.org/DEV/Google%20Summer%20of%20Code%202016#GitLab.2Fdevelopment_tools_integration>
for
GSoC, and I am interested in this project. I have built gitlab for my lab
and integrated the CI system, and I am maintaining it now.  I am enrolled
under Computer Science and Technology for master degree in Tsinghua
University, and it's my first year.
*My Programming skills:*

   - Comfortable with coding in Python and also have good experience in
   object-oriented programming
   - Comprehensive experience in application development, such as web,
   desktop applications, especially in python.
   - Experience in using git version control system for about three years.
   - Strong ability for algorithms and data struct.

Looking forward to your favorable reply.--
Best wishes!

XuepingWeng(???)
Database Research Group,
Department of Computer Science and Technology,
Tsinghua University, Beijing, China, 100084

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Mar 20 13:20:18 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 02:20:18 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers]  Interested in GSoC [subject changed]
In-Reply-To: <2BDBFA75-9457-4A90-A95B-D799FC2A91F0@gmail.com>
References: <2BDBFA75-9457-4A90-A95B-D799FC2A91F0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22254.56274.325516.168593@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Abhinav Mishra writes:

 > Hi,I am a third year Engineering student and had been working on
 > django and python for almost 3 years. My biggest project is
 > developing a hospital web application which is funded by my
 > college. I would like to know the Details of [the Preset list
 > settings templates -GSOC project] and would need some help while
 > drafting the proposal.

??? writes:

 > I am through the GSoC in 2016 and find GitLab/development tools integration
 > <http://wiki.list.org/DEV/Google%20Summer%20of%20Code%202016#GitLab.2Fdevelopment_tools_integration>
 > for GSoC, and I am interested in this project.

For project details, you should check the archives of
mailman-developers for the last 2 months.  Both have been mentioned
frequently, and the list template project in some detail.

If you have not registered with summerofcode.withgoogle.com and
submitted a proposal, I advise you to do something quickly.  While I
do not expect it to crash, that has happened in the past, and Google
has never extended the application period due to system problems.  It
is also much easier to give you help if you provide us with a document
that we can read and comment on.  Don't forget to enable comments on
the document.  As far as I know only mentors can see it, so globally
enabling comments should be safe.

Steve


From anirudhdahiya9 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 20 18:17:30 2016
From: anirudhdahiya9 at gmail.com (Anirudh Dahiya)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 03:47:30 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Gsoc Support for Message queue based email
 archiver
In-Reply-To: <20160315093049.GB17979@mud.redhat.com>
References: <CAJ0CPtE=JKcXfLBK7saLBrp1Jbwg1YSFSrJ17ibSFGjcwDbgxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160315093049.GB17979@mud.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ0CPtGZSo1hcvXCQUMMCi_+3EzNaYsSNbxD-S83Q1KNv=MOmg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello
I have been getting to know more about the message queues and the pub/sub
systems available.
As I am trying to formalize the project description for the proposal, I
have a few doubts regarding this.

1. Reliability - Currently, as I see, the messages are archived in
Hyperkitty via a simple POST request, but in the event of some failure(like
hk server being down for a while), there is no way the message is being
tried to be archived again. Thus are we aiming to add some reliability to
the system via the message queue systems?
In our use case, I believe reliability is a critical issue as we make
threads from individual mails in the archiver.
Apart from this and extensibility, what all advanteges are we looking
forward to as a result of this project?
In Zeromq, I am still searching for a storage based message queue with
multiple consumers. Also, the pub/sub model is based around the idea of
message being dropped (as in subscribers not listening to the broadcaster
miss out on the messages.)
I found an interesting approach based in redis
https://davidmarquis.wordpress.com/2013/01/03/reliable-delivery-message-queues-with-redis/

2. Should I add/mention the potential scope for adding mailman events (like
list creation etc) to our archivers?

3. Am I supposed to alter Hyperkitty(as what seems to be mentioned in the
project description) or should the basic scope of the project stay about
building the pub/sub or message queue interface(as what seems to be
mentioned by some of our conversations on irc)

I do partially know answers to some of the questions above, but would like
a confirmation and a concrete idea about the project before I apply my
proposal.
Thank you for your time
Regards
Anirudh Dahiya
(irc spark)

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 3:00 PM, Florian Fuchs <f at florianfuchs.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 16:22:25PM +0530, Anirudh Dahiya wrote:
>
>> Hello
>> I am a computer scrience undergrad at IIIT-Hyderabad, India.
>>
>> I was looking through the GSoC 2016 ideas and would like to know more
>> about
>> the project "message queue based email archiver"
>>
>
> Great to hear you're interested in this project. I've just responded to
> another question regarding this project that is equally relevant to you:
>
>  http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/msg16305.html
>
> I have played with codebase of mailman and postorius for some time now and
>> am currently trying to understand how Hyperkitty works.
>> Also, as suggested to other students regarding this project, I have gone
>> through the chapter on mailman in the book The Architecture of Open Source
>> Applications, the pycon talk on mailman by Barry and have also gone
>> through
>> relevant parts of the documentation.
>>
>
> Sounds good. If you're already reading through the HyperKitty source, you
> might give special attention to its implementation of Mailman's IArchiver
> interface, as well as the implementations for the mail-archive.com and
> mhonarc archivers in the Mailman core projects.
>
> Florian
>
>
>> Regards
>> Anirudh Dahiya
>> (spark on IRC)
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mailman-Developers mailing list
>> Mailman-Developers at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
>> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>> Searchable Archives:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
>> Unsubscribe:
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/f%40florianfuchs.com
>>
>> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
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>

From barry at list.org  Sun Mar 20 21:45:16 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 21:45:16 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Gsoc Support for Message queue based email
 archiver
In-Reply-To: <CAJ0CPtGZSo1hcvXCQUMMCi_+3EzNaYsSNbxD-S83Q1KNv=MOmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ0CPtE=JKcXfLBK7saLBrp1Jbwg1YSFSrJ17ibSFGjcwDbgxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160315093049.GB17979@mud.redhat.com>
 <CAJ0CPtGZSo1hcvXCQUMMCi_+3EzNaYsSNbxD-S83Q1KNv=MOmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160320214516.116a4c4e@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 21, 2016, at 03:47 AM, Anirudh Dahiya wrote:

>1. Reliability - Currently, as I see, the messages are archived in
>Hyperkitty via a simple POST request, but in the event of some failure(like
>hk server being down for a while), there is no way the message is being
>tried to be archived again. Thus are we aiming to add some reliability to
>the system via the message queue systems?

I think that's correct.  Currently if we can't deliver to HK, the message
doesn't even get shunted.

>Apart from this and extensibility, what all advanteges are we looking
>forward to as a result of this project?

I think part of it should also be a more robust distributed architecture.  We
do have some separation now because submitting to HK is a POST, but it still
requires a localhost connection (for security purposes).

>2. Should I add/mention the potential scope for adding mailman events (like
>list creation etc) to our archivers?

Probably so.

>3. Am I supposed to alter Hyperkitty(as what seems to be mentioned in the
>project description) or should the basic scope of the project stay about
>building the pub/sub or message queue interface(as what seems to be mentioned
>by some of our conversations on irc)

That's up to Aurelien I think.  The model of the HK plugin is a good one to
follow though because the pub/sub doesn't necessarily need to be part of Core.

Cheers,
-Barry

From barry at list.org  Sun Mar 20 21:55:51 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 21:55:51 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Correcting the display name in the
 recipient address
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQLVGJX0hHWwmvM6gKxRaDrKbXahJQ7k-_-sPtjMAxNwyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQLVGJX0hHWwmvM6gKxRaDrKbXahJQ7k-_-sPtjMAxNwyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160320215551.53d88969@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 17, 2016, at 11:27 PM, Aditya Divekar wrote:

>Suppose you have a user with two linked addresses, one of which is the
>preferred address. Only the preferred address has a display name, and the
>user does not. Now in the scenario where the other linked address(not the
>preferred one) is subscribed to a mailing list without providing a display
>name, it would be natural to check if the user has a display name, and use
>that if it exists. But the user too does not have a display name in this
>case. In such a case should we perform a further check and try to use the
>preferred address's display name if it exists or simply use an empty string
>instead?
>
>In the opinion I gave, in case we are not supplied with a display name, we
>should check the user display name followed by the preferred address
>display name, and use them in the specified order respectively. If none
>exist, empty string would be used.
>
>In a more general scenario, as pointed out by Barry to question this
>method, suppose a user has multiple linked addresses, only one of which has
>a display name, and its neither the preferred address, nor the subscribed
>address. Should the display name search algorithm find that one too, since
>it still is a linked address for the user and hence contains valid user
>information?

One other comment.  In the more general case I outlined (i.e. your last
paragraph), *if* we decide to use display_names in other linked addresses, we
can only use ones that are associated with validated addresses.  A user's
preferred address will always be validated.

The other thing about the more general case is that there's no natural
ordering.  So yes, we could use the preferred address first, and then pick an
arbitrary ordering criteria for falling back to all linked, validated
addresses.  That could be alphabetical by email address, or chronological by
validation or registration date.

Cheers,
-Barry

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Mar 20 23:15:57 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 20:15:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Correcting the display name in the
 recipient address
In-Reply-To: <20160320215551.53d88969@subdivisions.wooz.org>
References: <CAAQRvQLVGJX0hHWwmvM6gKxRaDrKbXahJQ7k-_-sPtjMAxNwyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160320215551.53d88969@subdivisions.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <56EF676D.4040304@msapiro.net>

On 03/20/2016 06:55 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Mar 17, 2016, at 11:27 PM, Aditya Divekar wrote:
> 
>> Suppose you have a user with two linked addresses, one of which is the
>> preferred address. Only the preferred address has a display name, and the
>> user does not. Now in the scenario where the other linked address(not the
>> preferred one) is subscribed to a mailing list without providing a display
>> name, it would be natural to check if the user has a display name, and use
>> that if it exists. But the user too does not have a display name in this
>> case. In such a case should we perform a further check and try to use the
>> preferred address's display name if it exists or simply use an empty string
>> instead?


I wonder if we aren't over thinking here. Maybe I didn't associate a
display name with my user record and my alternate address on purpose for
my own reasons. Maybe when I subscribe my alternate address to some
list, I do it because I don't want my preferred address or its display
name associated with this subscription.

I'm not sure we should be mining the data for things that the user may
have intentionally not provided.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From barry at list.org  Mon Mar 21 00:21:25 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 00:21:25 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Correcting the display name in the
 recipient address
In-Reply-To: <56EF676D.4040304@msapiro.net>
References: <CAAQRvQLVGJX0hHWwmvM6gKxRaDrKbXahJQ7k-_-sPtjMAxNwyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160320215551.53d88969@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56EF676D.4040304@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20160321002125.325d6a95@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 20, 2016, at 08:15 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>I wonder if we aren't over thinking here. Maybe I didn't associate a
>display name with my user record and my alternate address on purpose for
>my own reasons. Maybe when I subscribe my alternate address to some
>list, I do it because I don't want my preferred address or its display
>name associated with this subscription.
>
>I'm not sure we should be mining the data for things that the user may
>have intentionally not provided.

That's an interesting point, thanks.

The intention in the model is that the user's display name can be used as a
fallback for any linked address that has no display name.  So I still think it
makes sense that if an address with no display name is subscribed and the user
record it's linked to does have a display name, we should use that.  But if it
doesn't, then we don't go hunting around ("mining") for something else to use,
especially on a record that's not directly subscribed to the mailing list.

Cheers,
-Barry

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Mar 21 01:37:46 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 22:37:46 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New lists at lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net>
References: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56EF88AA.8040102@msapiro.net>

On 03/17/2016 11:48 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> I think I've made sufficient progress to ask others to look.
> 
> There are two lists: test at mailman3.org and test2 at mailman3.org. Info
> pages are at <https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/>.
> 
> Subscription to the "test2" list is confirm only. The "test" list is
> confirm and moderate. There are public HyperKitty archives, so be
> careful what you post.
> 
> Note that the login page offers Persona, Google and Yahoo for login, but
> only Persona works


Since the last round of updates, Yahoo login appears to be working.

There is still an issue with Google login. it is not obvious how to
resolve it, but I'm working on it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From shubham.ghiya.sg at gmail.com  Mon Mar 21 17:50:50 2016
From: shubham.ghiya.sg at gmail.com (Shubham Ghiya)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 03:20:50 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Gsoc'16 Project:GitLab/development tools
 integration
Message-ID: <CAGwphD9z6+APahktFVESdAP6uGFyw2N7ZFEYzMRaeGSTqS5=Gw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

My name is Shubham Ghiya, a 3 year undergraduate from IIIT-Hyderbad.

I was going through the GSOC 2016 ideas and found "GitLab/development tools
integration" project interesting.

I have setup the mailman and postorius and have tried my hand on some bugs
also.Right now,I am learning more about hyperkitty which will help me learn
more about the implementation details for the project.I have a good
understanding of functionality of various modules and how mailman works. I
have also read the chapter on mailman by Barry Warsaw to understand mailman
in a much better way.

For the project "GitLab/development tools integration" I figured out that
we are expected to create a tool that will extract the contents of the mail
on a mailing list and create an issue of it on Gitlab/Github through
various Gitlab/hub API's and python libraries.

1. For the extraction part Hyperkitty will be used from where we can
extract and parse the contents of the mail.

2. For creating an issue on Gitlab, different API's will be used which I
have to figure out yet.

I know the above points are a very naive and a basic approach. Please tell
me if I am thinking in the right direction and how to proceed further.

Thank you for your time. Looking forward to hear from you.

Regars
Shubham Ghiya
IRC - shubham__

From rsk at gsp.org  Mon Mar 21 21:04:16 2016
From: rsk at gsp.org (Rich Kulawiec)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 21:04:16 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Gitlab integration, GSOC'16
In-Reply-To: <56D44A87.2090302@toybox.ca>
References: <CAHu4ZCoGCbyaK8TO1AWdiWK5MvygGa-etANzfxqMA-+yG-EcwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56D44A87.2090302@toybox.ca>
Message-ID: <20160322010416.GA10066@gsp.org>

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 05:41:27AM -0800, Terri Oda wrote:
> The tweet linked talks about moving a discussion from a mailing list
> to a bug tracker.

An easy way to do that (while leaving the mailing list discussion intact
and not requiring that people have accounts on the bug tracking site
in order to participate) is to link to the archive of the discussion
-- specifically, to the message which begins the discussion thread.
This has the useful feature that as new followups arrive (and the
discussion continues) the link doesn't need to be updated.  (Well,
provided that everyone participating in the discussion uses a mail
client that correctly manipulates headers in replies.)

I've done quite a bit of this with internal debug/development lists
and have found that users catch onto it quickly.  (Oh, and one
small augmentation: sometimes it can be useful to have a process
in place wherein the person who commits the feature or bugfix
is responsible for saying so in the discussion thread.  This creates
a very useful history with a lot of context that can be highly
valuable to future archaeology efforts.)

---rsk



From jonax at openmailbox.org  Tue Mar 22 09:30:49 2016
From: jonax at openmailbox.org (Jonas)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 14:30:49 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC Project: pgp plugin
In-Reply-To: <22252.50681.106635.210294@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <56D1EC55.60909@openmailbox.org>
 <CAF2AkX=7t57C_4MV098xzRqvHjcVTpoxefRjs0XwLa_Lf1TG5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56D42559.5010202@openmailbox.org>
 <22228.44751.314201.936153@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <56EC3B15.5040909@openmailbox.org> <56EC7E69.8060609@gmail.com>
 <22252.50681.106635.210294@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <56F14909.3000800@openmailbox.org>

I was not going to exclude anyone from a discussion relevant to them or
start an offtopic conversation.

I uploaded my draft yesterday, summerofcode.withgoogle.com worked after
I switched from firefox to chromium.
However to update the file to my local working copy ? I can't help it? I
had to create a new file and update the proposal url on my dashboard so
please make sure to look at the most recent links. You should find my
2nd GSoC Proposal Draft on your dashboard. Any feedback would be very
much appreciated.

On 18.03.2016 23:17, Abhilash Raj wrote:
> We need you to fix one easy bug so as to judge your capability to
> actually implement the proposal that you are proposing. Although, we
> have mandated one patch towards your application, a small documentation
> patch and some of your previous patches to different projects
> (preferably, but not required, in Python) could work. Does that sound
> good? I can point you to several places we need more documentation ;-)

I would appreciate that.
I guess if it doesn't neccesarily has to be merged, I will get to make a
mr until friday and include it in my proposal (by now, at least my
gitlab id is there).
Also, if neccesary, I can show you some more very small patches I have
contributed to other projects over the years, it would just take some
time to dig them up.




On 19.03.2016 04:22, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>  > > And/Or Abhilash Raj, may I send you those?
>  > 
>  > I guess you can upload drafts of proposal (in google docs) on
>   > GSoC's website and we all mentors can have a look at it/comment on
>  > it if needed.
> 
> Please do register and upload a draft as soon as possible, even if
> very incomplete.  The Google SoC system is all-new this year, and has
> been distinctly slow the last day or two since student applications
> opened.  I don't expect it to crash, but if it does, *it is not an
> excuse for not being registered*!  That's Google policy; if you don't
> have an application on file by the deadline date, you *cannot* become
> a GSoC intern.  We have zero input to this policy.  OTOH, we can work
> around incompleteness in the event of system problems.
> 
> I haven't seen the student UI, but I've heard that you can mark your
> proposal "draft" (or maybe you have to mark it "final", which amounts
> to the same thing).  So you don't have to worry that an incomplete
> draft will count against you (in Mailman, we don't make judgments
> until applications close in any case).
> 
> If the draft seems *wrong* in some place, we'll let you know about
> that quickly.  If it's still incomplete on 3/22 or so, we'll ping you
> about that.
> 
>  > > To make a first impression, I thought about writing a general
>  > > blog post on the state of mailinglist/group communication
>  > > encryption that covers the efforts toward encrypted lists in
>  > > mailman.
> 
> That's a good idea in itself, but not a substitute for a patch.
> 
>  > > Could that work as a first impression instead of fixing
>  > > a bug in mailman? The easier ones seem to get patched faster than
>  > > I can catch up.
>  > 
>  > We need you to fix one easy bug so as to judge your capability to
>  > actually implement the proposal that you are proposing.
> 
> That's somewhat inaccurate.  The reasons you need to fix a *Mailman*
> bug are
> 
> 1.  You have to post a merge request, which means
> 2.  you know a little bit about our Gitlab repos, and
> 3.  a little bit about Gitlab, and
> 4.  have a Gitlab account.
> 
> That might not be a problem for you, but we've had issues in the past
> where the student floundered for a couple weeks midproject with the
> registration and submission procedure.
> 
> To judge implementation ability, other projects you've done or
> contributed to are valid evidence, of course, as long as you can point
> us to the code.
> 
>  > I can point you to several places we need more documentation ;-)
> 
> I don't care who does it (Abhilash direct-to-tracker, or Abhilash-to-
> Jonas-to-tracker), but please make sure all are filed on the tracker.
> 


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Mar 22 11:03:26 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 00:03:26 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Correcting the display name in the
 recipient address
In-Reply-To: <20160321002125.325d6a95@subdivisions.wooz.org>
References: <CAAQRvQLVGJX0hHWwmvM6gKxRaDrKbXahJQ7k-_-sPtjMAxNwyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160320215551.53d88969@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56EF676D.4040304@msapiro.net>
 <20160321002125.325d6a95@subdivisions.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <22257.24254.753641.775159@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Barry Warsaw writes:
 > On Mar 20, 2016, at 08:15 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

 > >I wonder if we aren't over thinking here. Maybe I didn't associate a
 > >display name with my user record and my alternate address on purpose for
 > >my own reasons. Maybe when I subscribe my alternate address to some
 > >list, I do it because I don't want my preferred address or its display
 > >name associated with this subscription.
 > >
 > >I'm not sure we should be mining the data for things that the user may
 > >have intentionally not provided.
 > 
 > That's an interesting point, thanks.

I'm with Mark here.

I think the right thing to do is to file an RFE with Postorius to have
the "link new address" screen "suggest" the existing display names,
but not automatically add any.

 > The intention in the model is that the user's display name can be
 > used as a fallback for any linked address that has no display name.

Also have a "inherit user name" value in the list.  Despite the way I
lean above, this could be default.  But definitely EIBTI (@aditya
"explicit is better than implicit") -- we should not take None for
"carte blanche".

Steve

From barry at list.org  Tue Mar 22 11:10:58 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 11:10:58 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Correcting the display name in the
 recipient address
In-Reply-To: <22257.24254.753641.775159@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAAQRvQLVGJX0hHWwmvM6gKxRaDrKbXahJQ7k-_-sPtjMAxNwyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160320215551.53d88969@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56EF676D.4040304@msapiro.net>
 <20160321002125.325d6a95@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22257.24254.753641.775159@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20160322111058.2402d9cd@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 23, 2016, at 12:03 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

>I'm with Mark here.

Okay cool, I think we're all in agreement about how this should behave.

>I think the right thing to do is to file an RFE with Postorius to have
>the "link new address" screen "suggest" the existing display names,
>but not automatically add any.

Nice!  We can keep the model's intention and have some nice suggestions in the
ui.

> > The intention in the model is that the user's display name can be
> > used as a fallback for any linked address that has no display name.  
>
>Also have a "inherit user name" value in the list.  Despite the way I
>lean above, this could be default.  But definitely EIBTI (@aditya
>"explicit is better than implicit") -- we should not take None for
>"carte blanche".

I certainly agree as far as mining for display names in linked, but not
subscribed, addresses.  However, I do want to keep the intended semantic that
if the *subscribed* address has no display name, we fall back to the linked
user record.  The idea is that a user can set their display name once, in
their user record, and won't need to set it every time they link (and
validate) a new address to their profile.

Aditya, do you think you have enough information to finish up mr !104?

Cheers,
-Barry
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From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 22 13:07:46 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 22:37:46 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Correcting the display name in the
 recipient address
In-Reply-To: <20160322111058.2402d9cd@subdivisions.wooz.org>
References: <CAAQRvQLVGJX0hHWwmvM6gKxRaDrKbXahJQ7k-_-sPtjMAxNwyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160320215551.53d88969@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56EF676D.4040304@msapiro.net>
 <20160321002125.325d6a95@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22257.24254.753641.775159@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160322111058.2402d9cd@subdivisions.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQKq87=YLYTbadvcsOTX2uytp9jgPk3WM5-kj7pGCL_DRg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi!

I certainly agree as far as mining for display names in linked, but not
> subscribed, addresses.  However, I do want to keep the intended semantic
> that
> if the *subscribed* address has no display name, we fall back to the linked
> user record.  The idea is that a user can set their display name once, in
> their user record, and won't need to set it every time they link (and
> validate) a new address to their profile.
>
> Aditya, do you think you have enough information to finish up mr !104?
>
>
So according to what I've gathered from the conversation, the fall back on
the user name can be made implicit. The user name is to be always used in
case of missing display name for the subscribed address.
The feature for suggesting the display names from the other records i.e.
linked via the user, but not subscribed, could, as suggested, be raised in
postorius for the UI part.

@Barry The mr code would first check if a display name is provided while
subscription i.e. `member.address.display_name`.
If not, it will check if the linked user has a display name and use that if
it exists i.e. `member.user.display_name`. And as a final case when both
these fail, it will use an empty string.
I'll go ahead and make these changes.

Thanks!

Aditya

From barry at list.org  Tue Mar 22 14:35:31 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 14:35:31 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Correcting the display name in the
 recipient address
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQKq87=YLYTbadvcsOTX2uytp9jgPk3WM5-kj7pGCL_DRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQLVGJX0hHWwmvM6gKxRaDrKbXahJQ7k-_-sPtjMAxNwyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160320215551.53d88969@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56EF676D.4040304@msapiro.net>
 <20160321002125.325d6a95@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22257.24254.753641.775159@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160322111058.2402d9cd@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <CAAQRvQKq87=YLYTbadvcsOTX2uytp9jgPk3WM5-kj7pGCL_DRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160322143531.12c5b218@anarchist.wooz.org>

On Mar 22, 2016, at 10:37 PM, Aditya Divekar wrote:

>So according to what I've gathered from the conversation, the fall back on
>the user name can be made implicit.  The user name is to be always used in
>case of missing display name for the subscribed address.

Right.

>The feature for suggesting the display names from the other records i.e.
>linked via the user, but not subscribed, could, as suggested, be raised in
>postorius for the UI part.

Right, and thus, not in core.

>@Barry The mr code would first check if a display name is provided while
>subscription i.e. `member.address.display_name`.  If not, it will check if
>the linked user has a display name and use that if it exists
>i.e. `member.user.display_name`. And as a final case when both these fail, it
>will use an empty string.  I'll go ahead and make these changes.

Yes, I think that's it.

Cheers,
-Barry
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From barry at list.org  Tue Mar 22 18:19:14 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 18:19:14 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Discussion On Project Idea "Preset List
 Settings Templates" .
In-Reply-To: <CAGV4MTEZfccdW8LKM7738YgAUA9k0cxp8afW7=urweao_92JVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGV4MTHxaZiG83-G9bf3S16LBpdxLqi2WygYpBjSivu0He4-yQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <569BF632.3010906@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTG1Zyn9k0eN=_5Jz3E=AodHmhkEx435Hi3xores46sarw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22184.4775.708220.823578@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAGV4MTFnaZEztXL2432KNNMBiyUgdOBvJ+ww_GvQJEvKxdVKfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56AD3D56.6020208@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTFukWFiHQNT+YBbT0bzL1UFEp8uKdFYOP=Vcuk45ii3_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BB9AF0.6010701@gmail.com>
 <CAGV4MTFzbP_zkxPwOwnv6JVzzDgup4ETY7Kp1ZfZp_mg=QXnYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160309205553.7699efce@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22240.62958.448991.400791@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAGV4MTGwV2i2LQrazrpahomtFAc8+-ffmou2XJTZ7X2HPYcrLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <22244.16780.167524.50549@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAGV4MTEZfccdW8LKM7738YgAUA9k0cxp8afW7=urweao_92JVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160322181914.6a513e37@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 13, 2016, at 03:01 AM, Harshit Bansal wrote:

>Sorry, I think I have used wrong terminology here. By 'copying' I
>actually meant 'inheriting'.

Just a quick follow up to my previous comment about multiple inheritance.  I
was thinking about the way it's done in the Python code now, but even there, a
specific ordering is imposed (see LegacyDefaultStyle.apply() and
LegacyAnnounceOnly.apply()).

The point of this break down is because some things (and it's not a perfect
separation) really won't be shared between mailing lists.  OTOH, you might
want site-wide bounce settings that all lists will inherit and shouldn't be
able to change.  Other sub-styles give the list its "flavor", i.e. an open
discussion list where anyone can join just by confirming their email, or a
one-way announcement list that can't be unsubscribed from because it's an
"all-employees" roster.

I know this gets complicated quickly and I don't mean to throw a wrench into
things.  Harshit, I think you're essentially on the right track and Steve is
right that we should be careful not to overengineer the whole thing.  I think
you've got enough ideas, input, feedback, and comments to have plenty of fun
with it, and no doubt you'll discover a lot as you work out the details and
implementation.

Cheers,
-Barry
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From simon.hanna at serve-me.info  Tue Mar 22 19:45:54 2016
From: simon.hanna at serve-me.info (Simon Hanna)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 00:45:54 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Gsoc'16 Project:GitLab/development tools
 integration
In-Reply-To: <CAGwphD9z6+APahktFVESdAP6uGFyw2N7ZFEYzMRaeGSTqS5=Gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGwphD9z6+APahktFVESdAP6uGFyw2N7ZFEYzMRaeGSTqS5=Gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56F1D932.7080804@serve-me.info>

Note that these are my personal thoughts and nothing official. :-)

On 03/21/2016 10:50 PM, Shubham Ghiya wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> My name is Shubham Ghiya, a 3 year undergraduate from IIIT-Hyderbad.
> 
> I was going through the GSOC 2016 ideas and found "GitLab/development tools
> integration" project interesting.
> 
> I have setup the mailman and postorius and have tried my hand on some bugs
> also.Right now,I am learning more about hyperkitty which will help me learn
> more about the implementation details for the project.I have a good
> understanding of functionality of various modules and how mailman works. I
> have also read the chapter on mailman by Barry Warsaw to understand mailman
> in a much better way.
> 
> For the project "GitLab/development tools integration" I figured out that
> we are expected to create a tool that will extract the contents of the mail
> on a mailing list and create an issue of it on Gitlab/Github through
> various Gitlab/hub API's and python libraries.
> 
> 1. For the extraction part Hyperkitty will be used from where we can
> extract and parse the contents of the mail.
Please note that it should be a thread not just one message of a thread.
> 
> 2. For creating an issue on Gitlab, different API's will be used which I
> have to figure out yet.
It would be nice if you design your project so that it can be used with different
providers/API's. You could add supporting Github, launchpad, etc. to your stretch goals.
> 
> I know the above points are a very naive and a basic approach. Please tell
> me if I am thinking in the right direction and how to proceed further.
I think the most challenging part is to implement a UI that let's the users decide what gets
included in the issue and what not. (Which messages of the thread, which parts of a message,
attachments, ...)

As this is only targeted at lists used by developers it would be nice if the plugin for hyperkitty
is optional meaning you don't need to have it installed at all and if you have it installed, you
don't need to enable it for a list.

There might be other practical ways to trigger the creation of an issue.
For instance by including specific headers in the email or putting a special string in the subject.
I don't think you need to do that, but if you want something challenging you can think about it.

From wxping715 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 23 03:59:53 2016
From: wxping715 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?57+B5a2m5bmz?=)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 15:59:53 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Willing to contribute to GitLab/development
 tools integration project in GSoC
Message-ID: <CA+bOgKTWiFgJdi09sN5h61mL6xPCvg5x-MafQ6YvnRjY9aH71A@mail.gmail.com>

I have sent this email for serval days before, but have not received any
response for this, so send this email again.I am through the GSoC in 2016
and find GitLab/development tools integration
<http://wiki.list.org/DEV/Google%20Summer%20of%20Code%202016#GitLab.2Fdevelopment_tools_integration>
for
GSoC, and I am interested in this project. I have built gitlab for my lab
and integrated the CI system, and I am maintaining it now.  I am enrolled
under Computer Science and Technology for master degree in Tsinghua
University, and it's my first year.
*My Programming skills:*

   - Comfortable with coding in Python and also have good experience in
   object-oriented programming
   - Comprehensive experience in application development, such as web,
   desktop applications, especially in python.
   - Experience in using git version control system for about three years.
   - Strong ability for algorithms and data struct.

Looking forward to your favorable reply.

-- 
Best wishes!

XuepingWeng(???)
Database Research Group,
Department of Computer Science and Technology,
Tsinghua University, Beijing, China, 100084

From harshitbansal2015 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 23 04:26:36 2016
From: harshitbansal2015 at gmail.com (Harshit Bansal)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 13:56:36 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Discussion On Project Idea "Preset List
 Settings Templates" .
Message-ID: <CAGV4MTHnAKPE4NzptJGjz5SVW_CYxEnLNeO3NqNbH6KcUAxD1w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Barry,

>The point of this break down is because some things (and it's not a perfect
>separation) really won't be shared between mailing lists.  OTOH, you might
>want site-wide bounce settings that all lists will inherit and shouldn't be
>able to change.  Other sub-styles give the list its "flavor", i.e. an open
>discussion list where anyone can join just by confirming their email, or a
>one-way announcement list that can't be unsubscribed from because it's an
>"all-employees" roster.

I already had this idea in my mind and that's why I have divided all
the styleable attributes into three categories:
1: Site owner level attributes.
2: Domain owner level attributes.
3: List owner level attributes.

Suppose attributes related to bounce-settings come into site owner
level attributes(I have not yet decided which attribute will fall in
which category) then only site-owners would be able to set them and
once these are set, the list owners would be having only two options.
Either apply the existing style as it is or create a sub-style and
adjust the list owner level(not site-owner level) attributes(to give
their list "flavor") and then apply it. This way they would be able to
make their list an "open discussion list" or an "one-way announcement
list" without being able to edit the bounce-settings.

Regards,
Harshit Bansal.

From oshirekar at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 23 04:14:06 2016
From: oshirekar at hotmail.com (Ojas Shirekar)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 08:14:06 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Hello!
Message-ID: <MAXPR01MB02661C24E44A2BCCA60681F7BD810@MAXPR01MB0266.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hello,

I am writing this mail to introduce myself to the group. My name is Ojas Shirekar and I am currently in my 3rd year of Btech(CE) degree enrolled in NMIMS, India.

I was going through the idea list for GNU mailman and found the following two ideas extremely interesting:

  *   Discourse integration and,
  *   GitLab development tools integration

As for my programming experience, I have been coding small programs in python since the last summer or so. I write simple parsers(I study compiler design) and do competitive programming in python. I am very comfortable using git and a CI system like Travis-CI.

Although incredibly late, I would be submitting my project proposal today. I am would be excited to work on this truly remarkable project. Not only to improve my python skills but also out of genuine interest. Even if I don?t get selected I would love to contribute to the project.

I look forward to the community?s guidance.
Thank you.

Ojas Kishore Shirekar

oshirekar at hotmail.com<mailto:oshirekar at hotmail.com>
Mukesh Patel School of Technology,
Narsee Monjee Institute of Management Studies

From nosikov.konstantin.a at gmail.com  Wed Mar 23 18:41:50 2016
From: nosikov.konstantin.a at gmail.com (Nosikov Konstantin)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 01:41:50 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GitLab/development tools integration GSoC
 Participaring
Message-ID: <CAGt-m6hsZ7A17FLC40bj5gJT6pzL-TkNFP=1Kid1uPNgzUT_Dw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello, I am from Russia, Saints Petersbutg, ITMO University
I am interested in Mailman project
GitLab/development tools integration
What do I need to do to get started? Is there any special points in
proposal to be mentioned?

Best regards,
Konstantin

From jdanielfandino at gmail.com  Wed Mar 23 15:07:16 2016
From: jdanielfandino at gmail.com (jdanielfandino at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 14:07:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] (no subject)
Message-ID: <56f2e960.0787810a.7cea5.ffff895c@mx.google.com>

Hello,

This mail is to introduce myself. My name is Jose Daniel Fandi?o, I study Computer and Systems Engenieering at the University of Los Andes and I am courrently coursing my 4th semester (2nd year). I have experience with Java, REST services in Java, HTML, CSS, JS, AngularJS, basicly for University assignments. I?m also interested in competitive programming (in Java). I learned Python by my own and I am fairly new to it but I found it easy to understand.

About the ideas for Mailman, I read the propoused ones and found interesting the Preset list settings templates one really interesting. It is also very important because lists may have different purposes, so having different styles with different functionalities may be really useful for the users.

I know it is a bit late for the deadline, but still I would like to keep up to date with this Project (Mailman in general) and even if I?m not selected I would love to contribute to Mailman with everything I can from now on, specially because this is my first aproach to open source contribution (but still I do have experience with github and team development, mainly for academic purpouses).

Thank you for your attention, I?ll be attentive to the community.


From oshirekar at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 24 02:55:41 2016
From: oshirekar at hotmail.com (Ojas Shirekar)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 06:55:41 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman and Discourse Integration
Message-ID: <MAXPR01MB026657BF5726919F1A9CCE80BD820@MAXPR01MB0266.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hello,

I have officially submitted a proposal for GSoC for this feature as this is something I really found interesting and felt like doing.
Please take a look and do let me know

Ojas Shirekar

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From oshirekar at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 24 09:03:53 2016
From: oshirekar at hotmail.com (Ojas Shirekar)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 13:03:53 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman and Discourse Integration
In-Reply-To: <MAXPR01MB026657BF5726919F1A9CCE80BD820@MAXPR01MB0266.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <MAXPR01MB026657BF5726919F1A9CCE80BD820@MAXPR01MB0266.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <MAXPR01MB02661C7E35281CE56FF28053BD820@MAXPR01MB0266.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hello,

Although really late, it would be greatly appreciated if someone can help me with the proposal for Mailman and Discourse integration.
I am reading up on the Discourse API and would love some help and suggestions.

Ojas Shirekar

> On 24-Mar-2016, at 12:25 PM, Ojas Shirekar <oshirekar at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I have officially submitted a proposal for GSoC for this feature as this is something I really found interesting and felt like doing.
> Please take a look and do let me know
> 
> Ojas Shirekar
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/oshirekar%40hotmail.com
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9

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From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Mar 24 14:34:12 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 03:34:12 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GitLab/development tools integration GSoC
 Participaring
In-Reply-To: <CAGt-m6hsZ7A17FLC40bj5gJT6pzL-TkNFP=1Kid1uPNgzUT_Dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGt-m6hsZ7A17FLC40bj5gJT6pzL-TkNFP=1Kid1uPNgzUT_Dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22260.13092.203646.280162@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Nosikov Konstantin writes:

 > Hello, I am from Russia, Saints Petersbutg, ITMO University
 > I am interested in Mailman project

Welcome!

 > GitLab/development tools integration
 > What do I need to do to get started? Is there any special points in
 > proposal to be mentioned?

I'm not going to be mentoring the project and don't have a grasp of
requirements, but I can offer the following generic advice.

For project details, you should check the archives of
mailman-developers for the last 2 months.  It has been mentioned
frequently.

If you have not registered with summerofcode.withgoogle.com and
submitted a proposal, I advise you to do something quickly.  While I
do not expect it to crash, that has happened in the past, and Google
has never extended the application period due to system problems.  It
is also much easier to give you help if you provide us with a document
that we can read and comment on.  Don't forget to enable comments on
the document.  As far as I know only mentors can see it, so globally
enabling comments should be safe.

Steve

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Mar 24 14:37:46 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 03:37:46 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] REVIEW NEEDED: Mailman and Discourse
 Integration
In-Reply-To: <MAXPR01MB026657BF5726919F1A9CCE80BD820@MAXPR01MB0266.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <MAXPR01MB026657BF5726919F1A9CCE80BD820@MAXPR01MB0266.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <22260.13306.197379.178368@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Ojas Shirekar writes:

 > I have officially submitted a proposal for GSoC for this feature as
 > this is something I really found interesting and felt like doing.
 > Please take a look and do let me know

OK, it's visible under the Mailman project.  I only had time to make a
couple of comments, sorry.  It's not something I can mentor in any
case, perhaps someone else will pick itup and give you some additional
help.

Steve

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Mar 24 14:38:36 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 03:38:36 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Willing to contribute to GitLab/development
 tools integration project in GSoC
In-Reply-To: <CA+bOgKTWiFgJdi09sN5h61mL6xPCvg5x-MafQ6YvnRjY9aH71A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bOgKTWiFgJdi09sN5h61mL6xPCvg5x-MafQ6YvnRjY9aH71A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22260.13356.789236.580213@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

??? writes:

 > I have sent this email for serval days before, but have not received any
 > response for this,

I sent a response, addressed to you and to the list, so you should
have received two copies.  Try your spam folder.  Here it is again:

For project details, you should check the archives of
mailman-developers for the last 2 months.  Both have been mentioned
frequently, and the list template project in some detail.

If you have not registered with summerofcode.withgoogle.com and
submitted a proposal, I advise you to do something quickly.  While I
do not expect it to crash, that has happened in the past, and Google
has never extended the application period due to system problems.  It
is also much easier to give you help if you provide us with a document
that we can read and comment on.  Don't forget to enable comments on
the document.  As far as I know only mentors can see it, so globally
enabling comments should be safe.

Steve

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Mar 24 14:44:42 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 03:44:42 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Correcting the display name in the
 recipient address
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQKq87=YLYTbadvcsOTX2uytp9jgPk3WM5-kj7pGCL_DRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQLVGJX0hHWwmvM6gKxRaDrKbXahJQ7k-_-sPtjMAxNwyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160320215551.53d88969@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56EF676D.4040304@msapiro.net>
 <20160321002125.325d6a95@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22257.24254.753641.775159@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160322111058.2402d9cd@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <CAAQRvQKq87=YLYTbadvcsOTX2uytp9jgPk3WM5-kj7pGCL_DRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22260.13722.326388.219887@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

BTW I made a few more comments on your proposal (after you
finalized).  I'm told you are allowed to revise the final copy until
the deadline, it's just that we can't see it until then.  I think it's
basically in good shape.

Aditya Divekar writes:

 > So according to what I've gathered from the conversation, the fall
 > back on the user name can be made implicit.

If by "implicit" you mean "automatic, default", yes, but IMHO there
should be a distinction between "None" and "InheritFromUser".  That
will make it easier to "fix" in the future if it turns out that there
are more than a very few people who feel more strongly than me and
Mark.

A perhaps more convincing example would be an extension to anonymous
lists with personal reply-to.  This could be accomplished by creating
a mailbox at the list host, which would be associated with the user so
she can set options for it (eg, which address to forward to), but
should not have a display name associated with it, and certainly not
the user-level display name (which in organizational contexts --
including Python! -- is likely to be a real name).

Also, in documentation please always write "the user's display name".
"User name" has a strong connotation of "account identifier", and so
could be quite confusing (especially since we don't have a user name
separate from email addresses!)

Steve


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 24 14:56:10 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 11:56:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Willing to contribute to
 GitLab/development tools integration project in GSoC
In-Reply-To: <22260.13356.789236.580213@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CA+bOgKTWiFgJdi09sN5h61mL6xPCvg5x-MafQ6YvnRjY9aH71A@mail.gmail.com>
 <22260.13356.789236.580213@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <56F4384A.4090200@msapiro.net>

On 03/24/2016 11:38 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> ??? writes:
> 
>  > I have sent this email for serval days before, but have not received any
>  > response for this,
> 
> I sent a response, addressed to you and to the list, so you should
> have received two copies.  Try your spam folder.  Here it is again:


For some reason, the initial reply isn't in the list archive (this one is).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Mar 24 15:33:27 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 04:33:27 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Willing to contribute to
 GitLab/development tools integration project in GSoC
In-Reply-To: <56F4384A.4090200@msapiro.net>
References: <CA+bOgKTWiFgJdi09sN5h61mL6xPCvg5x-MafQ6YvnRjY9aH71A@mail.gmail.com>
 <22260.13356.789236.580213@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <56F4384A.4090200@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <22260.16647.477279.485491@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:
 > On 03/24/2016 11:38 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
 > > ??? writes:
 > > 
 > >  > I have sent this email for serval days before, but have not received any
 > >  > response for this,
 > > 
 > > I sent a response, addressed to you and to the list, so you should
 > > have received two copies.  Try your spam folder.  Here it is again:
 > 
 > 
 > For some reason, the initial reply isn't in the list archive (this one is).

In that case, I apologize to Mr. ? for my tone.  I do have a mailed
copy in my folder.  Perhaps I accidentally BCC'd myself, rather than
sent it through mailman-developers.  Or my "smarthost"[sic] glitched.
Or something.

Steve

From jonax at openmailbox.org  Thu Mar 24 20:43:40 2016
From: jonax at openmailbox.org (Jonas)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 01:43:40 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC Project: pgp plugin
In-Reply-To: <56F14909.3000800@openmailbox.org>
References: <56D1EC55.60909@openmailbox.org>
 <CAF2AkX=7t57C_4MV098xzRqvHjcVTpoxefRjs0XwLa_Lf1TG5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56D42559.5010202@openmailbox.org>
 <22228.44751.314201.936153@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <56EC3B15.5040909@openmailbox.org> <56EC7E69.8060609@gmail.com>
 <22252.50681.106635.210294@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <56F14909.3000800@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <56F489BC.5080509@openmailbox.org>

Hey,

I have tried to update my draft according to your suggestions, Abhilash
Raj and Stephen. You should see a new URL for this third draft on your
dashboard.
The new draft includes a merge request and more details on how I plan to
implement the extension. I'm aware that I will still have to do alot of
research for this to become an actual design plan. Just point me at a
direction for what should be covered more closely in the proposal.

I have put a lot of work into it so if there's anything I still missed,
please let me know.
Especially was I wondering if the timeline looked ok and if my merge
request qualified as a patch:
https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/merge_requests/125
As a side note to this mr: I thought that it might be better to use SQL
constraints (cascading) to ensure referential integrity instead of
manually deleting referencing Bans, Subscriptions, Pendings etc. but it
would require kind of fundamential changes and there could be database
backends that don't support it.

I didn't proof read the current draft yet, I'll do that tomorrow.
Anyway, I had a hard time trying to express my plans in english so
remarks on my choice of words are always very welcome.
Now that there's a section on implementation, a section on how I plan to
do the documentation could be the next thing to add. What are your thoughts?

I would release the proposal on the project blog cryptolists.github.io
after the proposal deadline has passed. Is there any reason not to?

Thank you both for your help.

From wxping715 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 25 01:24:45 2016
From: wxping715 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?57+B5a2m5bmz?=)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 13:24:45 +0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Willing to contribute to
 GitLab/development tools integration project in GSoC
In-Reply-To: <22260.16647.477279.485491@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CA+bOgKTWiFgJdi09sN5h61mL6xPCvg5x-MafQ6YvnRjY9aH71A@mail.gmail.com>
 <22260.13356.789236.580213@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <56F4384A.4090200@msapiro.net>
 <22260.16647.477279.485491@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CA+bOgKRu1BmBsb60cqV+EzX74Hc1qdaenywj46kzmVpYq2QnkA@mail.gmail.com>

*Mark, Steve:*

It doesn't matter.  I am sorry I didn't tell you my English name,  Xueping
Weng,  and ??? is my Chinese name.

I will submit my proposal as soon as I can, which will be published in
github wiki. And you mentors can add comments and give me some advices.

But one thing is that I receive the response too late, so I  have not
enough time to contribute to the mailman before the GSoC applying
deadline.  So can I learn the project deeply and do some extra contribution
after the proposal submission deadline?

From salvishu5050 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 24 20:53:53 2016
From: salvishu5050 at gmail.com (nitish salwan)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 19:53:53 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Interest in "Implement module to process ARC
 headers" project GSoc
Message-ID: <CA+1cisvDtM+sDeakQ+ERSXxGEOgcipS03mT5Qf8OCaNOFF9kfA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,


I am interested in ARC headers project and want to discuss about it .


I know that this is late but If stephan or anybody can help me then please
respond.


Thank you,


Regards,

Nitish Salwan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Mar 24 04:43:37 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 17:43:37 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Willing to contribute to GitLab/development
 tools integration project in GSoC
In-Reply-To: <CA+bOgKTWiFgJdi09sN5h61mL6xPCvg5x-MafQ6YvnRjY9aH71A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bOgKTWiFgJdi09sN5h61mL6xPCvg5x-MafQ6YvnRjY9aH71A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <m2twjw6zba.fsf@xemacs.org>

??? writes:

 > I have sent this email for serval days before, but have not received any
 > response for this,

I sent a response, addressed to you and to the list, so you should
have received two copies.  Try your spam folder.  Here it is again:

For project details, you should check the archives of
mailman-developers for the last 2 months.  Both have been mentioned
frequently, and the list template project in some detail.

If you have not registered with summerofcode.withgoogle.com and
submitted a proposal, I advise you to do something quickly.  While I
do not expect it to crash, that has happened in the past, and Google
has never extended the application period due to system problems.  It
is also much easier to give you help if you provide us with a document
that we can read and comment on.  Don't forget to enable comments on
the document.  As far as I know only mentors can see it, so globally
enabling comments should be safe.

Steve

From oshirekar at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 25 05:25:34 2016
From: oshirekar at hotmail.com (Ojas Shirekar)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 09:25:34 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman and Discourse Integration
In-Reply-To: <DC2B1307-4F9C-4CDE-B125-47AAF316F6C4@hotmail.com>
References: <MAXPR01MB026657BF5726919F1A9CCE80BD820@MAXPR01MB0266.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <DC2B1307-4F9C-4CDE-B125-47AAF316F6C4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MAXPR01MB02669F5A3230AA1F840A57FABD830@MAXPR01MB0266.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hello,

I modified my proposal from the last time. It is slightly less ambitious now and includes more details about my plan to achieve this goal.
Instead of a two-way interface between Mailman and Discourse and a one way Mailman to Discourse interface is certainly possible and beneficial to newbies who want to contribute but cannot follow the various conversations on a mailing list.

It can also be helpful as a way to see the discussion time line and a means to archive old conversations. Not only that, I believe this is the first step towards a full integration between Mailman and Discourse

Ojas Shirekar
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From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 25 08:28:38 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 17:58:38 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Correcting the display name in the
 recipient address
In-Reply-To: <22260.13722.326388.219887@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAAQRvQLVGJX0hHWwmvM6gKxRaDrKbXahJQ7k-_-sPtjMAxNwyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160320215551.53d88969@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56EF676D.4040304@msapiro.net>
 <20160321002125.325d6a95@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22257.24254.753641.775159@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160322111058.2402d9cd@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <CAAQRvQKq87=YLYTbadvcsOTX2uytp9jgPk3WM5-kj7pGCL_DRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <22260.13722.326388.219887@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQKPfM2Dz1dKkvFjm9yeTjWadpqvXq59dCctXNOFZMw7ag@mail.gmail.com>

Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:

> BTW I made a few more comments on your proposal (after you
> finalized).  I'm told you are allowed to revise the final copy until
> the deadline, it's just that we can't see it until then.  I think it's
> basically in good shape.
>
>
Yes, I checked the comments. Thanks a lot for the input! I had gotten a bit
worked-up about the possible server issue and so uploaded a copy earlier.
I revised the proposal according to your recent comments and re-uploaded it
now. Also, I've replied to a couple of the comments. Specifically, I was
not able to understand your comment in the testing section, which can be
discussed if time permits :)

If by "implicit" you mean "automatic, default", yes, but IMHO there
> should be a distinction between "None" and "InheritFromUser".  That
> will make it easier to "fix" in the future if it turns out that there
> are more than a very few people who feel more strongly than me and
> Mark.
>

> A perhaps more convincing example would be an extension to anonymous
> lists with personal reply-to.  This could be accomplished by creating
> a mailbox at the list host, which would be associated with the user so
> she can set options for it (eg, which address to forward to), but
> should not have a display name associated with it, and certainly not
> the user-level display name (which in organizational contexts --
> including Python! -- is likely to be a real name).
>
>
Actually, the code has already been merged for the above mentioned
automatic fallback on the user display name. So I'm not really sure about
the next step in this issue, and think that Barry would be better qualified
to give an opinion here than me.


> Also, in documentation please always write "the user's display name".
> "User name" has a strong connotation of "account identifier", and so
> could be quite confusing (especially since we don't have a user name
> separate from email addresses!)
>
>
Yes, it was a slip while typing the email. The docs are okay :)

Thanks.

Aditya

From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 25 09:06:37 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 18:36:37 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Correcting the display name in the
 recipient address
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQKPfM2Dz1dKkvFjm9yeTjWadpqvXq59dCctXNOFZMw7ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQLVGJX0hHWwmvM6gKxRaDrKbXahJQ7k-_-sPtjMAxNwyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160320215551.53d88969@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56EF676D.4040304@msapiro.net>
 <20160321002125.325d6a95@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22257.24254.753641.775159@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160322111058.2402d9cd@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <CAAQRvQKq87=YLYTbadvcsOTX2uytp9jgPk3WM5-kj7pGCL_DRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <22260.13722.326388.219887@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQKPfM2Dz1dKkvFjm9yeTjWadpqvXq59dCctXNOFZMw7ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQ+=VN2tZm=y5kdUqRvXWCKvJ2nznysTWe8q51_KQBGaUA@mail.gmail.com>

> A perhaps more convincing example would be an extension to anonymous
>> lists with personal reply-to.  This could be accomplished by creating
>> a mailbox at the list host, which would be associated with the user so
>> she can set options for it (eg, which address to forward to), but
>> should not have a display name associated with it, and certainly not
>> the user-level display name (which in organizational contexts --
>> including Python! -- is likely to be a real name).
>>
>
My knowledge of anonymous mailing lists is a bit less. But from what I
understand, the address for the mailbox would not have a display name for
anonymity purposes whereas the user can have a display name, importing
which may cause anonymity concerns.
The case we handled was regarding the welcome message. The display name
property of the address was not actually changed. So if the user has not
supplied a display name for the address, the display name will remain empty
in that case. Only the welcome message will temporarily use the user
display name. Would that still be a problem in this case?

I might be wrong here if my interpretation of the example is wrong!

Aditya

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Mar 25 13:16:09 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 10:16:09 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Correcting the display name in the
 recipient address
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQ+=VN2tZm=y5kdUqRvXWCKvJ2nznysTWe8q51_KQBGaUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQLVGJX0hHWwmvM6gKxRaDrKbXahJQ7k-_-sPtjMAxNwyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160320215551.53d88969@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56EF676D.4040304@msapiro.net>
 <20160321002125.325d6a95@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22257.24254.753641.775159@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160322111058.2402d9cd@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <CAAQRvQKq87=YLYTbadvcsOTX2uytp9jgPk3WM5-kj7pGCL_DRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <22260.13722.326388.219887@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQKPfM2Dz1dKkvFjm9yeTjWadpqvXq59dCctXNOFZMw7ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAQRvQ+=VN2tZm=y5kdUqRvXWCKvJ2nznysTWe8q51_KQBGaUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56F57259.307@msapiro.net>

On 03/25/2016 06:06 AM, Aditya Divekar wrote:
>>
> My knowledge of anonymous mailing lists is a bit less. But from what I
> understand, the address for the mailbox would not have a display name for
> anonymity purposes whereas the user can have a display name, importing
> which may cause anonymity concerns.


The purpose of an anonymous list is to hide the identity of the author
of a post. There is not a need on an anonymous list to hide the
membership roster. There should be the normal controls on the visibility
of the roster, i.e. list owners only, owners and members only or public
(I'm not sure how this is handled in Postorius, I'm not up to speed
there), but that is not the concern.

The concern is that a post as archived and delivered to list members
should have nothing in it's headers (including things like From:,
Received:, Message-ID, etc.) that identify the poster or the poster's
domain. This is a function of the core. Postorius is not involved nor
are the archivers as the post has been anonymized before it gets to an
archiver.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From simon.hanna at serve-me.info  Sat Mar 26 06:01:43 2016
From: simon.hanna at serve-me.info (Simon Hanna)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 11:01:43 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Correcting the display name in the
 recipient address
In-Reply-To: <56F57259.307@msapiro.net>
References: <CAAQRvQLVGJX0hHWwmvM6gKxRaDrKbXahJQ7k-_-sPtjMAxNwyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160320215551.53d88969@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56EF676D.4040304@msapiro.net>
 <20160321002125.325d6a95@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22257.24254.753641.775159@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160322111058.2402d9cd@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <CAAQRvQKq87=YLYTbadvcsOTX2uytp9jgPk3WM5-kj7pGCL_DRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <22260.13722.326388.219887@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQKPfM2Dz1dKkvFjm9yeTjWadpqvXq59dCctXNOFZMw7ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAQRvQ+=VN2tZm=y5kdUqRvXWCKvJ2nznysTWe8q51_KQBGaUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56F57259.307@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <FFB4B011-02E9-434C-A801-0AF80F7AD727@serve-me.info>

Am 25. M?rz 2016 18:16:09 MEZ, schrieb Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
>On 03/25/2016 06:06 AM, Aditya Divekar wrote:
>>>
>> My knowledge of anonymous mailing lists is a bit less. But from what
>I
>> understand, the address for the mailbox would not have a display name
>for
>> anonymity purposes whereas the user can have a display name,
>importing
>> which may cause anonymity concerns.
>
>
>The purpose of an anonymous list is to hide the identity of the author
>of a post. There is not a need on an anonymous list to hide the
>membership roster. There should be the normal controls on the
>visibility
>of the roster, i.e. list owners only, owners and members only or public
>(I'm not sure how this is handled in Postorius, I'm not up to speed
>there), but that is not the concern.
>
Just for reference: postorius currently only allowed moderators to vies the members of the list. 
>The concern is that a post as archived and delivered to list members
>should have nothing in it's headers (including things like From:,
>Received:, Message-ID, etc.) that identify the poster or the poster's
>domain. This is a function of the core. Postorius is not involved nor
>are the archivers as the post has been anonymized before it gets to an
>archiver.
I don't know that much about email, but shouldn't each message contain a message ID?


-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Sat Mar 26 12:25:20 2016
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 12:25:20 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Correcting the display name in the
 recipient address
In-Reply-To: <FFB4B011-02E9-434C-A801-0AF80F7AD727@serve-me.info>
References: <CAAQRvQLVGJX0hHWwmvM6gKxRaDrKbXahJQ7k-_-sPtjMAxNwyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160320215551.53d88969@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56EF676D.4040304@msapiro.net>
 <20160321002125.325d6a95@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22257.24254.753641.775159@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160322111058.2402d9cd@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <CAAQRvQKq87=YLYTbadvcsOTX2uytp9jgPk3WM5-kj7pGCL_DRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <22260.13722.326388.219887@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQKPfM2Dz1dKkvFjm9yeTjWadpqvXq59dCctXNOFZMw7ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAQRvQ+=VN2tZm=y5kdUqRvXWCKvJ2nznysTWe8q51_KQBGaUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56F57259.307@msapiro.net>
 <FFB4B011-02E9-434C-A801-0AF80F7AD727@serve-me.info>
Message-ID: <56F6B7F0.80709@Damon-Family.org>

On 3/26/16 6:01 AM, Simon Hanna wrote:
> Am 25. M?rz 2016 18:16:09 MEZ, schrieb Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
>
>> The concern is that a post as archived and delivered to list members
>> should have nothing in it's headers (including things like From:,
>> Received:, Message-ID, etc.) that identify the poster or the poster's
>> domain. This is a function of the core. Postorius is not involved nor
>> are the archivers as the post has been anonymized before it gets to an
>> archiver.
> I don't know that much about email, but shouldn't each message contain a message ID?
>
>
Every EMail will have a Message-ID, but the rules for generating the 
Message-ID (must be globally unique) tends to mean that its construction 
will reveal a bit about the source (very likely a domain connected to 
the sender). It might just indicate that they send via gmail, and that 
doesn't tell you much, but with some mail systems it might actually leak 
out the email of the poster. (Yes, you could say just don't use those, 
but it is helpful to build the system to keep anonymity without people 
understanding this level of details).

To totally anonymize a message, you want to replace the Message-ID with 
one generated by the list, thus every message will have the same sort of 
Message-ID, removing its ability to trace back (somewhat) to the poster.

-- 
Richard Damon


From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Mar 26 12:51:53 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 01:51:53 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Correcting the display name in the
 recipient address
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQ+=VN2tZm=y5kdUqRvXWCKvJ2nznysTWe8q51_KQBGaUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQLVGJX0hHWwmvM6gKxRaDrKbXahJQ7k-_-sPtjMAxNwyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160320215551.53d88969@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56EF676D.4040304@msapiro.net>
 <20160321002125.325d6a95@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22257.24254.753641.775159@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160322111058.2402d9cd@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <CAAQRvQKq87=YLYTbadvcsOTX2uytp9jgPk3WM5-kj7pGCL_DRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <22260.13722.326388.219887@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQKPfM2Dz1dKkvFjm9yeTjWadpqvXq59dCctXNOFZMw7ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAQRvQ+=VN2tZm=y5kdUqRvXWCKvJ2nznysTWe8q51_KQBGaUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22262.48681.726404.474988@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Aditya Divekar writes:

 > The case we handled was regarding the welcome message. The display name
 > property of the address was not actually changed. So if the user has not
 > supplied a display name for the address, the display name will remain empty
 > in that case. Only the welcome message will temporarily use the user
 > display name. Would that still be a problem in this case?

For the welcome message it's not going to cause a problem.

Based on the explanation it would be reasonable for you to add, "so
privacy problems are out of scope of the issue I'm working on."


From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Mar 26 13:31:01 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 02:31:01 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GSoC Project: pgp plugin
In-Reply-To: <56F489BC.5080509@openmailbox.org>
References: <56D1EC55.60909@openmailbox.org>
 <CAF2AkX=7t57C_4MV098xzRqvHjcVTpoxefRjs0XwLa_Lf1TG5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56D42559.5010202@openmailbox.org>
 <22228.44751.314201.936153@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <56EC3B15.5040909@openmailbox.org> <56EC7E69.8060609@gmail.com>
 <22252.50681.106635.210294@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <56F14909.3000800@openmailbox.org>
 <56F489BC.5080509@openmailbox.org>
Message-ID: <22262.51029.133505.953297@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Jonas writes:

 > I would release the proposal on the project blog
 > cryptolists.github.io after the proposal deadline has passed. Is
 > there any reason not to?

Privacy of proposals is entirely the student's choice.  Legally,
neither Google nor Mailman makes any claim to your proposal, except
that you have to give permission to view to mentors and admins.
Otherwise, you *own* your proposal, it's private property.

Making it public does have some advantages to the community, of
course.  How much that matters to you is up to you.




From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Mar 26 13:36:04 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 02:36:04 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Interest in "Implement module to process ARC
 headers" project GSoc
In-Reply-To: <CA+1cisvDtM+sDeakQ+ERSXxGEOgcipS03mT5Qf8OCaNOFF9kfA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+1cisvDtM+sDeakQ+ERSXxGEOgcipS03mT5Qf8OCaNOFF9kfA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22262.51332.344216.668591@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

nitish salwan writes:

 > I am interested in ARC headers project and want to discuss about it.

I'm sorry, but for the last 30 hours of submission period I've mostly
either been asleep or busy with graduation ceremonies at my
university, and haven't been able to address anything in GSoC except
really urgent queries (I'm an org admin for Python, and the others are
US based so nobody else is awake when I'm working).  So you were just
a little too late for me to help you with this.

You're welcome to participate in ongoing discussions on Mailman
Developers, of course.  I hope you do!





From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Mar 26 13:40:38 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 02:40:38 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Correcting the display name in the
 recipient address
In-Reply-To: <FFB4B011-02E9-434C-A801-0AF80F7AD727@serve-me.info>
References: <CAAQRvQLVGJX0hHWwmvM6gKxRaDrKbXahJQ7k-_-sPtjMAxNwyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160320215551.53d88969@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56EF676D.4040304@msapiro.net>
 <20160321002125.325d6a95@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22257.24254.753641.775159@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160322111058.2402d9cd@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <CAAQRvQKq87=YLYTbadvcsOTX2uytp9jgPk3WM5-kj7pGCL_DRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <22260.13722.326388.219887@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQKPfM2Dz1dKkvFjm9yeTjWadpqvXq59dCctXNOFZMw7ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAQRvQ+=VN2tZm=y5kdUqRvXWCKvJ2nznysTWe8q51_KQBGaUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56F57259.307@msapiro.net>
 <FFB4B011-02E9-434C-A801-0AF80F7AD727@serve-me.info>
Message-ID: <22262.51606.824424.279865@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Simon Hanna writes:

 > >The concern is that a post as archived and delivered to list members
 > >should have nothing in it's headers (including things like From:,
 > >Received:, Message-ID, etc.) that identify the poster or the poster's
 > >domain.

 > I don't know that much about email, but shouldn't each message
 > contain a message ID?

You are correct.

The interpretation of an anonymous list is subtle when it starts
interacting with RFCs, which generally assume that mail has an author
who wants to be identified.  The assumption is that the list is
granted permission by each poster to redact any identifying
information, including the Message-ID which usually contains the
originating domain in order to ensure global uniqueness.  In some
cases there's a unique format to the local part, which identifies the
MTA or even (when customized) the host.  Of course RFC conformance is
important, so we would replace the original Message-ID with a new one.
Possibly we could record the old one (note that many MTAs will record
the incoming Message-ID in their log, too).



From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Mar 26 13:41:13 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 02:41:13 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Willing to contribute to
 GitLab/development tools integration project in GSoC
In-Reply-To: <CA+bOgKRu1BmBsb60cqV+EzX74Hc1qdaenywj46kzmVpYq2QnkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bOgKTWiFgJdi09sN5h61mL6xPCvg5x-MafQ6YvnRjY9aH71A@mail.gmail.com>
 <22260.13356.789236.580213@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <56F4384A.4090200@msapiro.net>
 <22260.16647.477279.485491@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CA+bOgKRu1BmBsb60cqV+EzX74Hc1qdaenywj46kzmVpYq2QnkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22262.51641.289807.603605@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

??? writes:

 > But one thing is that I receive the response too late, so I have
 > not enough time to contribute to the mailman before the GSoC
 > applying deadline.  So can I learn the project deeply and do some
 > extra contribution after the proposal submission deadline?

You can contribute on the mailing list, but it would be unfair to
other students to evaluate not your proposal, but other information
you send us (and if Google caught us doing that, they would very
likely boot us entirely from the program, if not this year, next).

If I have some time I'll take a look at your proposal, but I already
have all my time committed to other mentoring, so I will have very
little influence on an eventual decision.

Steve

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Mar 26 21:50:20 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 18:50:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New lists at lists.mailman3.org
In-Reply-To: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net>
References: <56EAFBF9.9040901@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <56F73C5C.3090001@msapiro.net>

Mark Sapiro wrote:

> I think I've made sufficient progress to ask others to look.
> 
> There are two lists: test at mailman3.org and test2 at mailman3.org. Info
> pages are at <https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/>.
> 
> Subscription to the "test2" list is confirm only. The "test" list is
> confirm and moderate. There are public HyperKitty archives, so be
> careful what you post.
> 
> Note that the login page offers Persona, Google and Yahoo for login, but
> only Persona works
> 
> Please feel free to subscribe and play. The intent is to set up a
> mailman-users at mailman3.org list as soon as we think the installation is
> viable, so we need to hammer it some and get some confidence.


Update: As of now, all the offered login methods are working, email
address via Persona, Google OAuth2 and Yahoo OpenID.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From salvishu5050 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 26 23:10:40 2016
From: salvishu5050 at gmail.com (nitish salwan)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 22:10:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Interest in "Implement module to process
 ARC headers" project GSoc
Message-ID: <CA+1ciss+hz-NsDXF29weOmx0=Fi4E60D-+LwWBJqjB_-Zch0tA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Stephen,

I know that was late but I wanted to take part in GSOC. And now when the
submission deadline is over,can I contribute in this project through GSOC
or separate contribution?
Thank you,

Regards,
Nitish Salwan

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sun Mar 27 13:36:53 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 02:36:53 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Interest in "Implement module to process
 ARC headers" project GSoc
In-Reply-To: <CA+1cistCL_CDO+xjNQpohrQCzypLVeGNcFQ5r8tNaGWo-19yow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+1cisvDtM+sDeakQ+ERSXxGEOgcipS03mT5Qf8OCaNOFF9kfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <22262.51332.344216.668591@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CA+1cistCL_CDO+xjNQpohrQCzypLVeGNcFQ5r8tNaGWo-19yow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22264.6709.54813.407831@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

nitish salwan writes:

 > I know that was late but I wanted to take part in GSOC. And now
 > when the submission deadline is over,can I contribute in this
 > project through GSOC or separate contribution.

You can certainly contribute at any time.  About GSoC, if you
submitted a proposal, I'm not allowed to say until the official
announcements.

Regards,


From barry at list.org  Tue Mar 29 14:47:03 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 14:47:03 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big merge landing soon
Message-ID: <20160329144703.246f62f2@subdivisions.wooz.org>

Hello developers!

As soon as the latest CI passes, I am going to merge a massive code clean up
branch to the core's master branch.  This integrates flake8 (pyflakes + pep8)
static analysis, with a few local customizations.

https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/merge_requests/127

One of the most important checks is a customization to enforce our GNU Mailman
import style rules, which are codified in the style guide:

https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/blob/master/src/mailman/docs/STYLEGUIDE.rst

This branch also updates that style guide.

This merge will cause some churn and if you have merge proposals currently in
the queue, it's very possible there will be conflicts.  To the extent that you
can rebase and push updates, that would be appreciated, but I will not require
it as I continue to review outstanding merge proposals.  I apologize for any
disruption, but with GSoC coming, I want to be sure that to the extent
possible, CI will early detect simple style guide violations.  That way,
reviews can focus more on the actual interesting bits rather than the boring
bits.

This branch also bandaids over the problem with the newest Falcon by pinning
that package's version to < 1.0.  Issue #20 will address a more long-term
fix.  I plan on releasing core 3.0.3 very soon which will have this fix
backported.

There are a few other minor code modernizations, and a local implementation of
the idea expressed in this Python bug:

http://bugs.python.org/issue26632

It's been quite the eye-opener to see all the little violations that have
crept into the code, but everything will be better now <wink>.

Cheers,
-Barry
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From barry at list.org  Tue Mar 29 14:48:28 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 14:48:28 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big merge landing soon
In-Reply-To: <20160329144703.246f62f2@subdivisions.wooz.org>
References: <20160329144703.246f62f2@subdivisions.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <20160329144828.22a92d82@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 29, 2016, at 02:47 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

>There are a few other minor code modernizations, and a local implementation of
>the idea expressed in this Python bug:

Oh yeah, see if you can spot the easter egg, or more accurately, the removal
of a ^Lot of little easter eggs. :)

Cheers,
-Barry
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From barry at list.org  Tue Mar 29 20:07:49 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 20:07:49 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] ANNOUNCE: Mailman Core 3.0.3
Message-ID: <20160329200749.7c963545@subdivisions.wooz.org>

Hello Mailmandables!

I'm happy to announce Mailman Core 3.0.3 which fixes a number of bugs.  This
also pins the Falcon version in setup.py to < 1.0.

https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/milestones/4

More information on version compatibility is available here:

http://wiki.list.org/Mailman3

As usual, you can download it from PyPI:

https://pypi.python.org/pypi/mailman/3.0.3

view the documentation:

http://mailman.readthedocs.org/en/release-3.0/

Enjoy,
-Barry (on behalf of the Mailman development team)
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Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
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From christian.schoepplein at otrs.com  Thu Mar 31 08:27:03 2016
From: christian.schoepplein at otrs.com (Christian Schoepplein)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:27:03 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman
Message-ID: <20160331122703.GA32131@v.cs-x.de>

Hi,

I'm getting the following error after a fresh installation of 
mailman_bundler with mailman 3.0.3 included. Is this a known issue or a 
bug? How can I resolve it?

Ciao and thx,

  Schoepp

------
Environment:


Request Method: GET
Request URL: http://192.168.122.147:8000/mailman3/

Django Version: 1.8.11
Python Version: 2.7.9
Installed Applications:
('django.contrib.auth',
  'django.contrib.contenttypes',
  'django.contrib.sessions',
  'django.contrib.messages',
  'django.contrib.staticfiles',
  'django.contrib.admin',
  'hyperkitty',
  'social.apps.django_app.default',
  'rest_framework',
  'django_gravatar',
  'crispy_forms',
  'paintstore',
  'compressor',
  'django_browserid',
  'haystack',
  'django_extensions',
  'postorius')
Installed Middleware:
('django.middleware.common.CommonMiddleware',
  'django.contrib.sessions.middleware.SessionMiddleware',
  'django.middleware.csrf.CsrfViewMiddleware',
  'django.contrib.auth.middleware.AuthenticationMiddleware',
  'django.contrib.messages.middleware.MessageMiddleware',
  'hyperkitty.middleware.TimezoneMiddleware')


Traceback:
File 
"/opt/mailman-bundler/eggs/Django-1.8.11-py2.7.egg/django/core/handlers/base.py" 
in get_response
   132.                     response = wrapped_callback(request, 
*callback_args, **callback_kwargs)
File 
"/opt/mailman-bundler/eggs/postorius-1.0.3-py2.7.egg/postorius/views/list.py" 
in list_index
   511.         lists = sorted(List.objects.all(only_public=only_public),
File 
"/opt/mailman-bundler/eggs/postorius-1.0.3-py2.7.egg/postorius/models.py" in 
all
   144.             objects = getattr(get_client(), 
self.resource_name_plural)
File 
"/opt/mailman-bundler/eggs/mailmanclient-1.0.1-py2.7.egg/mailmanclient/_client.py" 
in lists
   158.         response, content = self._connection.call('lists')
File 
"/opt/mailman-bundler/eggs/mailmanclient-1.0.1-py2.7.egg/mailmanclient/_client.py" 
in call
   109.                 raise HTTPError(url, response.status, content, 
response, None)

Exception Type: HTTPError at /mailman3/
Exception Value: HTTP Error 500: A server error occurred.  Please 
contact the administrator.
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From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 31 09:09:14 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 18:39:14 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman
In-Reply-To: <20160331122703.GA32131@v.cs-x.de>
References: <20160331122703.GA32131@v.cs-x.de>
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQLenDDmK+CN3woX-EA4B6FFx5fJVf5FoNeZoEfLF44dCQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi!

Try removing the /mailman3 part from the URL. i.e. try accessing the URL -
http://192.168.122.147:8000/ <http://192.168.122.147:8000/mailman3/>
I'd gotten a similar error. Hope it helps.

Aditya Divekar

From chris at schoeppi.net  Thu Mar 31 09:24:47 2016
From: chris at schoeppi.net (Christian Schoepplein)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:24:47 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQLenDDmK+CN3woX-EA4B6FFx5fJVf5FoNeZoEfLF44dCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160331122703.GA32131@v.cs-x.de>
 <CAAQRvQLenDDmK+CN3woX-EA4B6FFx5fJVf5FoNeZoEfLF44dCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160331132446.GC32444@v.cs-x.de>

Hi,

On Do, M?r 31, 2016 at 06:39:14 +0530, Aditya Divekar wrote:
>Try removing the /mailman3 part from the URL. i.e. try accessing the URL -
>http://192.168.122.147:8000/

Using this address opens the webinterface for hyperkitty and I could 
browse mailinglist archives, e.g., but what I'd like to do is setup a 
new domain for the new installation.

If I open the settings page directly 
(http://192.168.122.147:8000/mailman3/settings/) I ge tno error, but 
after entering a mail and web host and a description and send the 
formular another error occures :-(.

Seems that something is not correctly installed or configured, but what 
is it?

Ciao and tia,

  Schoepp
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From adityadivekar03 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 31 09:47:50 2016
From: adityadivekar03 at gmail.com (Aditya Divekar)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:17:50 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman
In-Reply-To: <20160331132446.GC32444@v.cs-x.de>
References: <20160331122703.GA32131@v.cs-x.de>
 <CAAQRvQLenDDmK+CN3woX-EA4B6FFx5fJVf5FoNeZoEfLF44dCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160331132446.GC32444@v.cs-x.de>
Message-ID: <CAAQRvQJ2-q8Q1P3+8b0kVsZ2FCUoZKTBDPehW65hvBytwSQ7Eg@mail.gmail.com>

I'm sorry for the misdirect. I'm myself a beginner here!

This issue on gitlab is probably the same as the one you are facing. The
fix recommended is the installation of falcon 0.3.0.1 or 0.3
https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/issues/122#note_4509503

If this doesn't help we'll wait till someone more knowledgeable than me
comes along :)

Thanks!

Aditya Divekar

From chris at schoeppi.net  Thu Mar 31 10:09:34 2016
From: chris at schoeppi.net (Christian Schoepplein)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 16:09:34 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQJ2-q8Q1P3+8b0kVsZ2FCUoZKTBDPehW65hvBytwSQ7Eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160331122703.GA32131@v.cs-x.de>
 <CAAQRvQLenDDmK+CN3woX-EA4B6FFx5fJVf5FoNeZoEfLF44dCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160331132446.GC32444@v.cs-x.de>
 <CAAQRvQJ2-q8Q1P3+8b0kVsZ2FCUoZKTBDPehW65hvBytwSQ7Eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160331140934.GG32444@v.cs-x.de>

Hi Aditya,

On Do, M?r 31, 2016 at 07:17:50 +0530, Aditya Divekar wrote:
>   I'm sorry for the misdirect. I'm myself a beginner here!

Absolutely no problem, every hint is welcome :-).

I'm also a beginner with mailman 3 and absolutely no python expert 
:-(. To be honest it is not easy to understand the full procedure of 
installation of all needed components for mm3, at least if you like to 
install not the mailman_bundler package. There are so many sites with 
documentation and it is not easy to find out what is the right one. A 
step to step guide to install all components, which also beginners or 
not python programmers do understand,  would be great. Maybe there is 
some kind of such a guide, but I haven't found it. And if it is not, I'd 
like to help to create such a guide, but I'd need support from people 
with mor knowledge of python and all the things which are needed.

>   This issue on gitlab is probably the same as the one you are facing.
>   The fix recommended is the installation of falcon 0.3.0.1 or 0.3
>   [1]https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/issues/122#note_4509503

If I understand it correctly, I already have a newer version of falcon 
installed:

root at mm3:/opt/mailman-bundler# find . -name *falcon*
./venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/falcon
./venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/falcon-1.0.0rc1-py3.4.egg-info
./venv-3.4/bin/falcon-bench
root at mm3:/opt/mailman-bundler#

But as said before, I'mno python expert...

Ciao and thanks again for your help,

  Schoepp

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From trealtv at yandex.com  Thu Mar 31 10:18:17 2016
From: trealtv at yandex.com (treal tv)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:18:17 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman
In-Reply-To: <20160331140934.GG32444@v.cs-x.de>
References: <20160331122703.GA32131@v.cs-x.de>
 <CAAQRvQLenDDmK+CN3woX-EA4B6FFx5fJVf5FoNeZoEfLF44dCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160331132446.GC32444@v.cs-x.de>
 <CAAQRvQJ2-q8Q1P3+8b0kVsZ2FCUoZKTBDPehW65hvBytwSQ7Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160331140934.GG32444@v.cs-x.de>
Message-ID: <56FD31A9.40807@yandex.com>

The problem is that when python 3.4 makes a virtualenv, it somehow pulls 
in falcon1.0.0rc1... even if you have falcon0.3.0 installed.

I've spent the last couple days fighting with this exact problem and 
trying to find ways to trick python 3.4 to not pull in falcon 1.0 when 
making a virtualenv, no solution yet though. I suspect I'm going to have 
to rebuild python 3.4.4 a few times before getting it.

On 03/31/2016 10:09 AM, Christian Schoepplein wrote:
> Hi Aditya,
>
> On Do, M?r 31, 2016 at 07:17:50 +0530, Aditya Divekar wrote:
>>    I'm sorry for the misdirect. I'm myself a beginner here!
> Absolutely no problem, every hint is welcome :-).
>
> I'm also a beginner with mailman 3 and absolutely no python expert
> :-(. To be honest it is not easy to understand the full procedure of
> installation of all needed components for mm3, at least if you like to
> install not the mailman_bundler package. There are so many sites with
> documentation and it is not easy to find out what is the right one. A
> step to step guide to install all components, which also beginners or
> not python programmers do understand,  would be great. Maybe there is
> some kind of such a guide, but I haven't found it. And if it is not, I'd
> like to help to create such a guide, but I'd need support from people
> with mor knowledge of python and all the things which are needed.
>
>>    This issue on gitlab is probably the same as the one you are facing.
>>    The fix recommended is the installation of falcon 0.3.0.1 or 0.3
>>    [1]https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/issues/122#note_4509503
> If I understand it correctly, I already have a newer version of falcon
> installed:
>
> root at mm3:/opt/mailman-bundler# find . -name *falcon*
> ./venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/falcon
> ./venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/falcon-1.0.0rc1-py3.4.egg-info
> ./venv-3.4/bin/falcon-bench
> root at mm3:/opt/mailman-bundler#
>
> But as said before, I'mno python expert...
>
> Ciao and thanks again for your help,
>
>    Schoepp
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/trealtv%40yandex.com
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9


From trealtv at yandex.com  Thu Mar 31 10:21:23 2016
From: trealtv at yandex.com (treal tv)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:21:23 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman
In-Reply-To: <56FD31A9.40807@yandex.com>
References: <20160331122703.GA32131@v.cs-x.de>
 <CAAQRvQLenDDmK+CN3woX-EA4B6FFx5fJVf5FoNeZoEfLF44dCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160331132446.GC32444@v.cs-x.de>
 <CAAQRvQJ2-q8Q1P3+8b0kVsZ2FCUoZKTBDPehW65hvBytwSQ7Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160331140934.GG32444@v.cs-x.de> <56FD31A9.40807@yandex.com>
Message-ID: <56FD3263.1050306@yandex.com>

I should also mention that I've done a full sweep of my system to make 
sure falcon 1.0.0rc1 isn't hiding anywhere. I can only suspect it's 
built into some other package and I need to hunt it down.

On 03/31/2016 10:18 AM, treal tv wrote:
> The problem is that when python 3.4 makes a virtualenv, it somehow 
> pulls in falcon1.0.0rc1... even if you have falcon0.3.0 installed.
>
> I've spent the last couple days fighting with this exact problem and 
> trying to find ways to trick python 3.4 to not pull in falcon 1.0 when 
> making a virtualenv, no solution yet though. I suspect I'm going to 
> have to rebuild python 3.4.4 a few times before getting it.
>
> On 03/31/2016 10:09 AM, Christian Schoepplein wrote:
>> Hi Aditya,
>>
>> On Do, M?r 31, 2016 at 07:17:50 +0530, Aditya Divekar wrote:
>>>    I'm sorry for the misdirect. I'm myself a beginner here!
>> Absolutely no problem, every hint is welcome :-).
>>
>> I'm also a beginner with mailman 3 and absolutely no python expert
>> :-(. To be honest it is not easy to understand the full procedure of
>> installation of all needed components for mm3, at least if you like to
>> install not the mailman_bundler package. There are so many sites with
>> documentation and it is not easy to find out what is the right one. A
>> step to step guide to install all components, which also beginners or
>> not python programmers do understand,  would be great. Maybe there is
>> some kind of such a guide, but I haven't found it. And if it is not, I'd
>> like to help to create such a guide, but I'd need support from people
>> with mor knowledge of python and all the things which are needed.
>>
>>>    This issue on gitlab is probably the same as the one you are facing.
>>>    The fix recommended is the installation of falcon 0.3.0.1 or 0.3
>>> [1]https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/issues/122#note_4509503
>> If I understand it correctly, I already have a newer version of falcon
>> installed:
>>
>> root at mm3:/opt/mailman-bundler# find . -name *falcon*
>> ./venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/falcon
>> ./venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/falcon-1.0.0rc1-py3.4.egg-info
>> ./venv-3.4/bin/falcon-bench
>> root at mm3:/opt/mailman-bundler#
>>
>> But as said before, I'mno python expert...
>>
>> Ciao and thanks again for your help,
>>
>>    Schoepp
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mailman-Developers mailing list
>> Mailman-Developers at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
>> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>> Searchable Archives: 
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
>> Unsubscribe: 
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/trealtv%40yandex.com
>>
>> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
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> Unsubscribe: 
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>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9


From trealtv at yandex.com  Thu Mar 31 10:31:59 2016
From: trealtv at yandex.com (treal tv)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:31:59 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman
In-Reply-To: <22269.13438.637148.70879@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <20160331122703.GA32131@v.cs-x.de>
 <CAAQRvQLenDDmK+CN3woX-EA4B6FFx5fJVf5FoNeZoEfLF44dCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160331132446.GC32444@v.cs-x.de>
 <CAAQRvQJ2-q8Q1P3+8b0kVsZ2FCUoZKTBDPehW65hvBytwSQ7Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160331140934.GG32444@v.cs-x.de> <56FD31A9.40807@yandex.com>
 <22269.13438.637148.70879@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <56FD34DF.6010101@yandex.com>

I've been checking all the logs for hints, but I have a feeling I missed 
a big hint in there now. I'll try 3.0.2, thanks

On 03/31/2016 10:30 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> treal tv writes:
>
>   > The problem is that when python 3.4 makes a virtualenv, it somehow pulls
>   > in falcon1.0.0rc1... even if you have falcon0.3.0 installed.
>
> Barry has that pinned to < 1.0 in 3.0.3, do a diff against 3.0.2 (or
> maybe just grep the logs) and you should find out how to stop that.
>


From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Mar 31 10:36:39 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 07:36:39 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman
In-Reply-To: <20160331140934.GG32444@v.cs-x.de>
References: <20160331122703.GA32131@v.cs-x.de>
 <CAAQRvQLenDDmK+CN3woX-EA4B6FFx5fJVf5FoNeZoEfLF44dCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160331132446.GC32444@v.cs-x.de>
 <CAAQRvQJ2-q8Q1P3+8b0kVsZ2FCUoZKTBDPehW65hvBytwSQ7Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160331140934.GG32444@v.cs-x.de>
Message-ID: <56FD35F7.7020300@msapiro.net>

On 3/31/16 7:09 AM, Christian Schoepplein wrote:
> 
> I'm also a beginner with mailman 3 and absolutely no python expert 
> :-(. To be honest it is not easy to understand the full procedure of 
> installation of all needed components for mm3, at least if you like to 
> install not the mailman_bundler package. There are so many sites with 
> documentation and it is not easy to find out what is the right one. A 
> step to step guide to install all components, which also beginners or 
> not python programmers do understand,  would be great. Maybe there is 
> some kind of such a guide, but I haven't found it. And if it is not, I'd 
> like to help to create such a guide, but I'd need support from people 
> with mor knowledge of python and all the things which are needed.


I feel your pain.


>>   This issue on gitlab is probably the same as the one you are facing.
>>   The fix recommended is the installation of falcon 0.3.0.1 or 0.3
>>   [1]https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius/issues/122#note_4509503
> 
> If I understand it correctly, I already have a newer version of falcon 
> installed:
> 
> root at mm3:/opt/mailman-bundler# find . -name *falcon*
> ./venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/falcon
> ./venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages/falcon-1.0.0rc1-py3.4.egg-info
> ./venv-3.4/bin/falcon-bench
> root at mm3:/opt/mailman-bundler#


We are not yet compatible with falcon 1.0, see
<https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/issues/20>.

You need to find where in your installation falcon 0.3 is installed and
replace the falcon 1.0 things in venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages
with symlinks to the corresponding falcon 0.3 directories.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Mar 31 10:30:22 2016
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 23:30:22 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman
In-Reply-To: <56FD31A9.40807@yandex.com>
References: <20160331122703.GA32131@v.cs-x.de>
 <CAAQRvQLenDDmK+CN3woX-EA4B6FFx5fJVf5FoNeZoEfLF44dCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160331132446.GC32444@v.cs-x.de>
 <CAAQRvQJ2-q8Q1P3+8b0kVsZ2FCUoZKTBDPehW65hvBytwSQ7Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160331140934.GG32444@v.cs-x.de> <56FD31A9.40807@yandex.com>
Message-ID: <22269.13438.637148.70879@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

treal tv writes:

 > The problem is that when python 3.4 makes a virtualenv, it somehow pulls 
 > in falcon1.0.0rc1... even if you have falcon0.3.0 installed.

Barry has that pinned to < 1.0 in 3.0.3, do a diff against 3.0.2 (or
maybe just grep the logs) and you should find out how to stop that.


From barry at list.org  Thu Mar 31 12:27:47 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:27:47 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman
In-Reply-To: <56FD35F7.7020300@msapiro.net>
References: <20160331122703.GA32131@v.cs-x.de>
 <CAAQRvQLenDDmK+CN3woX-EA4B6FFx5fJVf5FoNeZoEfLF44dCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160331132446.GC32444@v.cs-x.de>
 <CAAQRvQJ2-q8Q1P3+8b0kVsZ2FCUoZKTBDPehW65hvBytwSQ7Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160331140934.GG32444@v.cs-x.de> <56FD35F7.7020300@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20160331122747.20658ac1@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 31, 2016, at 07:36 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>We are not yet compatible with falcon 1.0, see
><https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/issues/20>.
>
>You need to find where in your installation falcon 0.3 is installed and
>replace the falcon 1.0 things in venv-3.4/lib/python3.4/site-packages
>with symlinks to the corresponding falcon 0.3 directories.

I think, but haven't tried, that if you blow away the falcon 1.0 directories
in your venv, then install mailman-3.0.3 you should get falcon 0.3.  Double
check Mailman's setup.py, which should now pin Falcon to < 1.0.

Cheers,
-Barry
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From barry at list.org  Thu Mar 31 13:54:18 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 13:54:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Correcting the display name in the
 recipient address
In-Reply-To: <CAAQRvQKPfM2Dz1dKkvFjm9yeTjWadpqvXq59dCctXNOFZMw7ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQRvQLVGJX0hHWwmvM6gKxRaDrKbXahJQ7k-_-sPtjMAxNwyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160320215551.53d88969@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <56EF676D.4040304@msapiro.net>
 <20160321002125.325d6a95@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <22257.24254.753641.775159@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20160322111058.2402d9cd@subdivisions.wooz.org>
 <CAAQRvQKq87=YLYTbadvcsOTX2uytp9jgPk3WM5-kj7pGCL_DRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <22260.13722.326388.219887@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <CAAQRvQKPfM2Dz1dKkvFjm9yeTjWadpqvXq59dCctXNOFZMw7ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160331135418.587eb842@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Mar 25, 2016, at 05:58 PM, Aditya Divekar wrote:

>> A perhaps more convincing example would be an extension to anonymous
>> lists with personal reply-to.  This could be accomplished by creating
>> a mailbox at the list host, which would be associated with the user so
>> she can set options for it (eg, which address to forward to), but
>> should not have a display name associated with it, and certainly not
>> the user-level display name (which in organizational contexts --
>> including Python! -- is likely to be a real name).
>>  
>Actually, the code has already been merged for the above mentioned
>automatic fallback on the user display name. So I'm not really sure about
>the next step in this issue, and think that Barry would be better qualified
>to give an opinion here than me.

Two things to keep in mind.  This comes into play for messages that Mailman
crafts out of whole cloth for notifying the user of something.  It won't be
used in messages posted to the list.

Also, although currently there's no distinction, there *could* be a difference
between None and the empty string for display_name.  The former could mean
no-fallback.

Cheers,
-Barry
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From harshitbansal2015 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 31 16:29:57 2016
From: harshitbansal2015 at gmail.com (Harshit Bansal)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 01:59:57 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Rosters not using 'ISubscriptionService'
 Interface.
Message-ID: <CAGV4MTGsZQDxzs4GF+Y73Bz0gCMJ+mPVNjjOep4C9NoS1=d9Vw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
I was looking at the 'rosters.py' and I am unable to understand that
why are rosters not using 'ISubscriptionService' interface instead of
making raw queries for finding members? Is there any reason for doing
so and if no then should it be changed?

Thanks,
Harshit Bansal.

From barry at list.org  Thu Mar 31 17:14:51 2016
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 17:14:51 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Rosters not using 'ISubscriptionService'
 Interface.
In-Reply-To: <CAGV4MTGsZQDxzs4GF+Y73Bz0gCMJ+mPVNjjOep4C9NoS1=d9Vw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGV4MTGsZQDxzs4GF+Y73Bz0gCMJ+mPVNjjOep4C9NoS1=d9Vw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160331171451.2171c0b7@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Apr 01, 2016, at 01:59 AM, Harshit Bansal wrote:

>I was looking at the 'rosters.py' and I am unable to understand that
>why are rosters not using 'ISubscriptionService' interface instead of
>making raw queries for finding members? Is there any reason for doing
>so and if no then should it be changed?

The easy answer is that rosters (and the IRoster interface) predates
ISubscriptionService by quite a bit.  The latter was added primarily to
support REST APIs for member searchers.

The concept of a roster as a query is pretty fundamental, and the idea was
also that rosters should be composable.  I'm not keen on changing these
interfaces.

Cheers,
-Barry