From kxra at riseup.net  Mon Oct  7 04:38:22 2013
From: kxra at riseup.net (=?UTF-8?B?S+G6j3Jh?=)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 22:38:22 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3 vs Groupserver vs Sympa
Message-ID: <CABhyRUiTe6awqGsqZP8podRUZVoA28DEGxCzSp7CMtfvhfP6Mg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

My name is K?ra and I am the technology director of the Free Culture
Foundation as well as a campaigns organizer for the Free Software
Foundation and we're in need up upgrading our mailing lists to a more
web-friendly system. I'm doing research on newer list severs to see how
they compare. So far Groupserver seems to provide everything, but if
Mailman 3 is going to be released soon, we'd like to consider that as well.

I'm making a comparison chart and wanted to ask about Mailman 3 (and
Postorius) features. Answers to any and all of the following with regards
to Mailman 3 + Postorius would be super helpful:

Can you post from the web interface?
Is there file upload support?
Is there now a search feature? Can it search multiple lists?
Are there web feeds (atom or rss)? Generated from lists? searches? threads?
files?
Are posts and administration integrated into the web interface?
Can you specify a posting rate restriction?
Is full css customization for the web interface supported?
Is css customization for the email interface supported?
Is there site-side logging? (as opposed to server side)
Is there a link to the post in the web interface in the footer of messages?
Now that users are more than just email addresses, can you request to
contact a list member?
Can users have multiple email addresses?
Are there profile pages where you can see a summary of their latest posts?
Can the web interface hide quoted text?
Are usage statistics provided?

Thanks!

Also, did Mailman 2 already support LMTP and virtual domains or are those
new?

Best,
K?ra

-- 
Board of Directors, Free Culture Foundation: www.freeculture.org
Campaigns Organizer, Free Software Foundation: www.fsf.org

Blog: http://kxra.info  -  StatusNet Microblog: http://identi.ca/kxra
Email: kxra at freeculture.org  -  SMS: +1.617.340.3661
Jabber/XMPP: kxra at riseup.net  -  IRC: kxra @freenode @oftc @indymedia

From nkarageuzian at gmail.com  Mon Oct  7 08:29:55 2013
From: nkarageuzian at gmail.com (nkarageuzian at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 08:29:55 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3 vs Groupserver vs Sympa
In-Reply-To: <CABhyRUiTe6awqGsqZP8podRUZVoA28DEGxCzSp7CMtfvhfP6Mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABhyRUiTe6awqGsqZP8podRUZVoA28DEGxCzSp7CMtfvhfP6Mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMYTGwj8=FtLTcrN=omtkngJopPNcFFcgQPF+QoRTeUO1qdOhw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Kyra,

The mailman3 team choosed to not implement the wev archive part, but to
delegate this purpose to some dedicated archiving tools.

To achieve this, an archiver interface has been introduced to mailman3.

Several projects have started to implement archives, especially the
hyperkitty project (https://fedorahosted.org/hyperkitty/) which allows some
of the features you ask.

Here are the points i've tested :

web post : OK

web file attach : ok

search : ok

search multiple list : ok
hide quoted : yes

profile page : yes

list usage statistics : per list overview

mailman admin : some features available throught REST API provided by
mailman (i've not tested it yet)

On my side, i'm modifying hyperkitty to add an extension API (plugins)
which will ease the integration of new features like advanced rss or third
party tools integration (branch code :
https://github.com/nka11/hyperkitty/tree/plugin-api )

Feel free to visit hyperkitty project and ask its core developpers for more
information about its basic features

Hope this explanation of the new mailman3 architecture whill help you for
making your choice.

Best regards.

Nico Kara

Le 7 oct. 2013 04:41, "K?ra" <kxra at riseup.net> a ?crit :

> Hello,
>
> My name is K?ra and I am the technology director of the Free Culture
> Foundation as well as a campaigns organizer for the Free Software
> Foundation and we're in need up upgrading our mailing lists to a more
> web-friendly system. I'm doing research on newer list severs to see how
> they compare. So far Groupserver seems to provide everything, but if
> Mailman 3 is going to be released soon, we'd like to consider that as well.
>
> I'm making a comparison chart and wanted to ask about Mailman 3 (and
> Postorius) features. Answers to any and all of the following with regards
> to Mailman 3 + Postorius would be super helpful:
>
> Can you post from the web interface?
> Is there file upload support?
> Is there now a search feature? Can it search multiple lists?
> Are there web feeds (atom or rss)? Generated from lists? searches? threads?
> files?
> Are posts and administration integrated into the web interface?
> Can you specify a posting rate restriction?
> Is full css customization for the web interface supported?
> Is css customization for the email interface supported?
> Is there site-side logging? (as opposed to server side)
> Is there a link to the post in the web interface in the footer of messages?
> Now that users are more than just email addresses, can you request to
> contact a list member?
> Can users have multiple email addresses?
> Are there profile pages where you can see a summary of their latest posts?
> Can the web interface hide quoted text?
> Are usage statistics provided?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Also, did Mailman 2 already support LMTP and virtual domains or are those
> new?
>
> Best,
> K?ra
>
> --
> Board of Directors, Free Culture Foundation: www.freeculture.org
> Campaigns Organizer, Free Software Foundation: www.fsf.org
>
> Blog: http://kxra.info  -  StatusNet Microblog: http://identi.ca/kxra
> Email: kxra at freeculture.org  -  SMS: +1.617.340.3661
> Jabber/XMPP: kxra at riseup.net  -  IRC: kxra @freenode @oftc @indymedia
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/nkarageuzian%40gmail.com
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9

From stephen at xemacs.org  Mon Oct  7 09:58:27 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 16:58:27 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers]  Mailman 3 vs Groupserver vs Sympa
In-Reply-To: <CABhyRUiTe6awqGsqZP8podRUZVoA28DEGxCzSp7CMtfvhfP6Mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABhyRUiTe6awqGsqZP8podRUZVoA28DEGxCzSp7CMtfvhfP6Mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87a9illdgc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Hi, K?ra!

Thank you for your interest in Mailman 3!  I'm sure I speak for all
the developers in saying that we are honored!

That said, what follows is the well-informed (I believe ;-) but
individual opinion of one developer, complicated by the fact that
Mailman development is quite decentralized because the web admin and
archive management interfaces have been hived off into separate
projects, as Nico points out.

I'm not sure everybody will be pleased by my next few remarks, either.

If Groupserver meets all your requirements and is stable, I'd have to
say that's the odds-on favorite.  Mailman 3 core (the user and list
database manager, and mail delivery server) is in late beta at this
point, and very usable.  A few sites are using it in production,
though I have no idea how mission-critical those lists are.

However, the web interfaces (Postorius for admin and HyperKitty for
archives) are still in flux, and recent development activity in
Mailman core has been more focused on security issues (verification
and re-signing of digitally-signed posts, refactored REST interface to
improve authentication).  Finally, Mailman 3 is still really about
*mail*.  It's not web-centric, although web access is dramatically
improved where the features have been implemented.

All that said, Barry still openly admits he wants Mailman 3 to "kill
web fora" and secretly hankers after Linux-style World Domination.  It
might be worth waiting for. :-)

Also, regarding the state of Postorius and HyperKitty you should
definitely contact their developers.  Most of them do hang out here on
mailman-developers, but there hasn't been a lot of traffic about
progress recently.  I suppose they have their own channels of
communication.

You wrote:

 > Are posts and administration integrated into the web interface?

There is a Messaging Interface (aka MI) being developed by the Systers
(as an alternative to Postorius/Hyperkitty) which provides some
administration features, access to the archives, and reading and
posting support.  It is clearly intended to be used internally to an
organization rather than as a way to support Mailman's traditional
constituency of open subscription, (nearly) open post public lists.

(Of course Mailman has been adapted to other kinds of lists such as
anonymized lists, fully personalized lists, and announce lists, but it
typically needs a lot of external support for applications like CRM.)

 > Can you specify a posting rate restriction?

What do you mean?  (Presently the answer is "no", but if you mean
preventing users from posting more than N times in a day or something
like that it would be easy to add.)

 > Is full css customization for the web interface supported?
 > Is css customization for the email interface supported?

Again, what do you mean by this?  Of course you can substitute your
own CSS for that distributed by Postorius or HyperKitty in the web
interfaces.  There is no CSS in the email interface AIUI -- the email
interface is whatever email program the user has chosen.  I'm pretty
sure that's not the question you're asking, though.  ??

 > Is there site-side logging? (as opposed to server side)

What do you mean by "site" and "server"?  Sites have to be served.

 > Is there a link to the post in the web interface in the footer of
 > messages?

If you want one and are using an archive manager that supports it,
it's customizable.  (I believe HyperKitty does support that.)  The
Systers' MI assumes a web-based interface, so no link needed.

 > Now that users are more than just email addresses, can you request to
 > contact a list member?

Not implemented as far as I know.  It would be easy to implement.

 > Can users have multiple email addresses?

Yes.

 > Are there profile pages where you can see a summary of their latest
 > posts?

Not as far as I know, although HyperKitty could easily provide
something like it, if not already implemented.

Note that unlike LinkedIn (for one example) where there's a single
profile page and the owner get an edit interface while 3rd parties get
a read-only view, HyperKitty and Postorius will have different
viewpoints about the user profiles (although HyperKitty can probably
access the same information that Postorius does via Mailman core's
REST interface).

The Systers MI probably provides a more unified view, but it's pretty
alpha at the moment, and Systers-specific.

 > Are usage statistics provided?

Not by Mailman itself.  They are easy to provide by trawling the logs
(the Mailman 2 approach).  In Mailman 3 they could be kept internally
and made available by the admin interface to HyperKitty or Postorius
if we knew what statistics are desired.  What do you want to see?

 > Also, did Mailman 2 already support LMTP and virtual domains or are those
 > new?

LMTP, no, although I believe it was possible to fake it by talking
LMTP to Mailman 2's incoming SMTP interface (they're nearly the same
protocol).  Mailman 3 *only* supports LMTP for incoming posts,
delegating the hairy interaction with the Internet to its upstream MTA.

Virtual domains, yes, with the usually mild restriction that the same
list address can't be used multiple times in different domains.
Third-party patches to remove that restriction were available.  In
Mailman 3, that restriction has been removed.


From aurelien at bompard.org  Mon Oct 14 15:42:25 2013
From: aurelien at bompard.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aur=E9lien_Bompard?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 15:42:25 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman3: decorating non-ascii message
	templates
Message-ID: <525BF4C1.6040901@bompard.org>

Hey all,

I first thought about opening a bug for this, but I think it needs a
small discussion first.
In Mailman3 the message templates are stored on disk (welcome.txt,
footer-generic.txt, ...)
However, unless I missed something, there is no hint about the encoding
of those files.
As a result, when I try the decorate() function (from
mailman.handlers.decorate) on a non-ascii file, it crashes with a
classic UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte [...].
Note: if the file contains no string to replace (like $fqdn_listname),
it is passed through unchanged and it works.

So how should we deal with this? I think that the TemplateLoader in
mailman.app.templates should return unicode strings, because that's the
closest to the moment when files are read, and unicode conversion should
happen on the "external borders" of the application. Thus the
TemplateLoader's get() method seems to be the right place.
I see two options:

- We require that all template files are stored in either ascii or
utf-8. That's the easiest way to go, and we just decode the text after
getting the file.

- We use the fact that our Language entities contain encoding values.
When the template is loaded from an internal URL containing the
language, we add the corresponding encoding to the result metadata (to
be retrieved with the info() method) and use that to decode the
contents. This means that templates in non-localized directories still
have to be ascii-only, and the same goes for templates retrieved from
non-internal URLs (not starting with mailman://). It's more complex but
it may seem more natural to the administrator, since he won't have to
force UTF-8 encoding when editing a file. We must also think of not
making it too hard for Postorius, which will probably only get UTF-8
posted from the webpage (since it's always displayed in UTF-8 IIRC).

I would vote for the easy way for just requiring UTF-8 encoding, but I'd
like to hear your thoughts on this.

Thanks,
Aur?lien
-- 
http://aurelien.bompard.org    ~~~~~~    xmpp:aurelien at bompard.org
Tell me and I will forget. Show me and I will remember. Involve me and
I will understand. -- Chinese proverb


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From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 16 17:12:25 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:12:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 2.1.16 release.
In-Reply-To: <51E30DF7.8020306@msapiro.net>
References: <51DF5301.7070802@msapiro.net> <51E30DF7.8020306@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <525EACD9.4070406@msapiro.net>

I am pleased to announce the final release for Mailman 2.1.16.

Python 2.4 is the minimum supported, but Python 2.7 is recommended.

This release has a few new features and several bug fixed as detailed in
the attached README.

Differences from the third candidate release include a minor update to
the Czech message catalog, updates to the Danish message catalog and
templates, and a fix for bug LP:1235101.

The new from_is_list feature described in the README is considered
experimental and subject to change in future releases.

Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and
e-newsletters. Mailman is used for all the python.org and
SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.

For more information, please see:

http://www.list.org
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman
http://mailman.sourceforge.net/

Mailman 2.1.16 can be downloaded from

https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/
http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/
https://sourceforge.net/projects/mailman/

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


-------------- next part --------------
2.1.16 (16-Oct-2013)

  New Features

    - There is a new list attribute from_is_list to either rewrite the From:
      header of posts replacing the posters address with that of the list or
      wrap the message in an outer message From: the list for compatability
      with DMARC and or ADSP.  There is a new mm_cfg.py setting
      DEFAULT_FROM_IS_LIST to control the default for new lists, and the
      existing REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS setting has been extended to allow removing
      those headers only for certain from_is_list lists.  This feature must
      be enabled by setting ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST to Yes in mm_cfg.py.  See the 
      description of these settings in Defaults.py for more detail.  This
      feature is experimental in 2.1.16, and it is subject to change or to
      become just one of the two methods in a subsequent release. People 
      interested in this feature are encouraged to try it and report their
      experiences to the mailman-users at python.org list.

    - There is a new DISPLAY_HELD_SUMMARY_SORT_BUTTONS setting which if set
      in mm_cfg.py will display a set of radio buttons in the admindb held
      message summary to select how the held messages are sorted and grouped
      for display. The exact setting determines the default grouping and
      sorting.  See the description in Defaults.py for details.

    - Setting digest_size_threshhold to zero now means no digests will be
      sent based on size instead of a digest being sent with every post.
      (LP: #558274)

    - There is a new mm_cfg.py setting SUBSCRIBE_FORM_SECRET which will put
      a dynamically generated, hidden hash in the listinfo subscribe form and
      check it upon submission.  Setting this will prevent automated processes
      (bots) from successfully POSTing web subscribes without first retrieving
      and parsing the form from the listinfo page.  The form must also be
      submitted no later than FORM_LIFETIME nor no earlier than
      SUBSCRIBE_FORM_MIN_TIME after retrieval.  Note that enabling this will
      break any static subscribe forms on your site.  See the description in
      Defaults.py for more info.  (LP: #1082746)

    - add_members now has an option to add members with mail delivery disabled
      by admin.  (LP: #1070574)

    - IncomingRunner now logs rejected messages to the vette log.
      (LP: #1068837)

    - The name of the mailmanctl master lock file is now congigurable via the
      mm_cfg.py setting MASTER_LOCK_FILE.  (LP: #1082308)

    - list_lists now has an option to list only lists with public archives.
      (LP: #1082711)

  Contributed programs

    - A new import_majordomo_into_mailman.pl script has been contributed by
      Geoff Mayes.  (LP: #1129742)

    - A new "sitemap" bash script has been contributed by Tomasz Chmielewski
      <mangoo at wpkg.org> to generate a sitemap.xml file of an installation's
      public archives for submission to search engines.

  i18n

    - The Danish translation has been updated thanks to Tom Christensen.

    - Fixed a string in the Czech message catalog.  (LP: #1234567)

    - A Farsi (Persian) translation has been added thanks to Javad Hoseini and
      Mahyar Moghimi.

    - Fixed several misspelled or garbled string replacements in the Spanish
      message catalog.  (LP: #1160138)

    - pt_BR message catalog has two new and an updated message per Hugo Koji
      Kobayashi.  (LP: #1138578)

    - German message catalog has been updated per Ralf Hildebrandt.

    - Corrected typo in templates/it/private.html.

  Bug Fixes and other patches

    - Fixed a crash in SpamDetect.py which caused messages with unparseable
      RFC 2047 encoded headers to be shunted.  (LP: #1235101)

    - Fixed cron/disabled to send a fresh cookie when notifying disabled
      members.  (LP: #1203200)

    - Added "message_id" to the interpolation dictionary for the Article.html
      template.  (LP: #725498)

    - Changed the admin GUI to report only the bad entries in a list of email
      addresses if any are bad.  (LP: #558253)

    - Added logging for template errors in HyperArch.py.  (LP: #558254)

    - Added more explanation to the bad owner address message from
      bin/newlist.  (LP: #1200763)

    - Fixed a bug causing the admin web interface to fail CSRF checking if
      the list name contains a '+' character.  (LP: #1190802)

    - Fixed bin/mailmanctl -s to not remove the master lock if it can't be
      determined to be truly stale.  (LP: #1189558)

    - It is no longer possible to add 'invalid' addresses to the ban_list
      and the *_these_nonmembers filters from the check boxes on the admindb
      interface.  (LP: #1187201)

    - Backported recognition for mail.ru DSNs and minor bug fixes from
      lp:flufl.bounce.  (LP: #1074592, LP: #1079249 and #1079254)

    - Defended against buggy web servers that don't include an empty
      QUERY_STRING in the CGI environment.  (LP: #1160647)

    - The Switchboard.finish() method now logs the text of the exception when
      it fails to unlink/preserve a .bak file.  (LP: #1165589)

    - The pending (un)subscriptions waiting approval are now sorted by email
      address in the admindb interface as intended.  (LP: #1164160)

    - The subscribe log entry for a bin/add_members subscribe now identifies
      bin/add_members as the source.  (LP: #1161642)

    - Fixed a bug where the Subject: of the user notification of a
      bin/remove_members unsubscribe was not in the user's language.
      (LP: #1161445)

    - Fixed a bug where BounceRunner could create and leave behind zero length
      bounce-events files.  (LP: #1161610)

    - Added recognition for another Yahoo bounce format.  (LP: #1157961)

    - Changed configure's method for getting Python's include directory from
      distutils.sysconfig.get_config_var('CONFINCLUDEPY') to
      distutils.sysconfig.get_python_inc().  (LP: #1098162)

    - Added an Auto-Generated: header to password reminders.  (LP: #558240)

    - Fixed a bug where non-ascii characters in the real name in a subscription
      request could throw a UnicodeEncodeError upon subscription approval and
      perhaps in other situations too.  (LP: #1047100)

    - The query fragments send_unsub_notifications_to_list_owner and
      send_unsub_ack_to_this_batch will now assume default values if not set
      in mass unsubscribe URLs.  (LP: #1032378)

    - Replaced utf-8 encoded characters in newly added German templates with
      HTML entities. (LP: #1018208)

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From barry at list.org  Wed Oct 16 17:29:04 2013
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 11:29:04 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-i18n] Mailman 2.1.16 release.
In-Reply-To: <525EACD9.4070406@msapiro.net>
References: <51DF5301.7070802@msapiro.net> <51E30DF7.8020306@msapiro.net>
 <525EACD9.4070406@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <20131016112904.24e4343b@anarchist>

On Oct 16, 2013, at 08:12 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>I am pleased to announce the final release for Mailman 2.1.16.

Congratulations Mark!

-Barry
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From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org  Wed Oct 16 17:31:10 2013
From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:31:10 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.16 release.
In-Reply-To: <525EACD9.4070406@msapiro.net>
References: <51DF5301.7070802@msapiro.net> <51E30DF7.8020306@msapiro.net>
 <525EACD9.4070406@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <65f943dace5b45d1890e1f66a250ef5f@DBXPR04MB047.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Mark Sapiro wrote: 

>I am pleased to announce the final release for Mailman 2.1.16.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the good release as always.  Sorry to ask this, but will your Htdig integration patch for 2.1.15 also work on 2.1.16, or are the differences too great for the patch to apply successfully?

Thanks to you and all the team as always,
Andrew.

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Oct 16 18:06:19 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 09:06:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 2.1.16 release.
In-Reply-To: <65f943dace5b45d1890e1f66a250ef5f@DBXPR04MB047.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <51DF5301.7070802@msapiro.net> <51E30DF7.8020306@msapiro.net>
 <525EACD9.4070406@msapiro.net>
 <65f943dace5b45d1890e1f66a250ef5f@DBXPR04MB047.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <525EB97B.8010000@msapiro.net>

On 10/16/2013 08:31 AM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the good release as always.  Sorry to ask this, but will your Htdig integration patch for 2.1.15 also work on 2.1.16, or are the differences too great for the patch to apply successfully?


The patch for 2.1.16 is now there at
<http://www.msapiro.net/mm/index_htdig.patch.2.1.16>. There were only a
few minor line number changes between that and the 2.1.15 patch.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From mark at msapiro.net  Thu Oct 17 07:22:33 2013
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 22:22:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 2.1.16 release.
In-Reply-To: <38b45bc054464ae09c4d59904be2f7cb@DBXPR04MB047.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <51DF5301.7070802@msapiro.net> <51E30DF7.8020306@msapiro.net>
 <525EACD9.4070406@msapiro.net>
 <65f943dace5b45d1890e1f66a250ef5f@DBXPR04MB047.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <525EB97B.8010000@msapiro.net>
 <38b45bc054464ae09c4d59904be2f7cb@DBXPR04MB047.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <525F7419.1030000@msapiro.net>

On 10/16/2013 10:44 AM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:
> 
> Thanks for this.  All working fine this end.  Only thing I can see is the version text still says that it is running RC3.

and On 10/16/2013 07:21 PM, Christopher Schulte wrote:
> Hi Mark, I pulled down
>
> http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/mailman-2.1.16.tgz
>
> and my list web interface shows version 2.1.16rc3.  Maybe someone
> forgot to bump Version.py ?


Actually, it's a bit more tangled than that. For those keeping score at
home, I have a script that I use to 1) bump the version 2) tag the
release and 3) package the tarball. The issue is step 1) bumps the
version, but doesn't commit, then step 2) tags the latest (prior) commit
and then commits, and step 3) packages the tagged version which doesn't
have the bump. Sometimes I remember to commit between steps 1) and 2),
and sometimes I don't.

I have updated the script to commit after the bump in step 1) which will
avoid this in the future I hope.

I have replaced the tarballs at the download sites:

https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/
http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/
https://sourceforge.net/projects/mailman/

with ones that have the correct version. This is the only difference
between the new tarballs and the prior ones. If you downloaded one
earlier and care about the displayed version, you can either download a
new one or apply the attached Version.py.patch.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
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From barry at list.org  Sat Oct 19 00:01:07 2013
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 18:01:07 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman3: decorating non-ascii message
 templates
In-Reply-To: <525BF4C1.6040901@bompard.org>
References: <525BF4C1.6040901@bompard.org>
Message-ID: <20131018180107.55dbaa7b@anarchist>

On Oct 14, 2013, at 03:42 PM, Aur?lien Bompard wrote:

>I first thought about opening a bug for this, but I think it needs a
>small discussion first.

Thanks for the thorough investigation!

>In Mailman3 the message templates are stored on disk (welcome.txt,
>footer-generic.txt, ...)  However, unless I missed something, there is no
>hint about the encoding of those files.  As a result, when I try the
>decorate() function (from mailman.handlers.decorate) on a non-ascii file, it
>crashes with a classic UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte
>[...].  Note: if the file contains no string to replace (like
>$fqdn_listname), it is passed through unchanged and it works.
>
>So how should we deal with this? I think that the TemplateLoader in
>mailman.app.templates should return unicode strings, because that's the
>closest to the moment when files are read, and unicode conversion should
>happen on the "external borders" of the application.

Completely agreed.  We need to convert to unicode at the edges and treat
strings internally as unicode.  I want MM3 to eventually be a Python 3
application, so we'll have to do this anyway.  I'm sure it'll be painful, but
let's start now in any way we can.

>Thus the TemplateLoader's get() method seems to be the right place.  I see
>two options:
>
>- We require that all template files are stored in either ascii or
>utf-8. That's the easiest way to go, and we just decode the text after
>getting the file.
>
>- We use the fact that our Language entities contain encoding values.
>When the template is loaded from an internal URL containing the
>language, we add the corresponding encoding to the result metadata (to
>be retrieved with the info() method) and use that to decode the
>contents. This means that templates in non-localized directories still
>have to be ascii-only, and the same goes for templates retrieved from
>non-internal URLs (not starting with mailman://). It's more complex but
>it may seem more natural to the administrator, since he won't have to
>force UTF-8 encoding when editing a file. We must also think of not
>making it too hard for Postorius, which will probably only get UTF-8
>posted from the webpage (since it's always displayed in UTF-8 IIRC).
>
>I would vote for the easy way for just requiring UTF-8 encoding, but I'd
>like to hear your thoughts on this.

I would vote for UTF-8 for all files, internal or external, but maybe there
are some languages for which this will cause problems.  We do have a `charset`
variable in the config file for languages, but I wonder if we'll actually use
anything other than UTF-8.  Note that some of the charsets in MM2.1 are not
UTF-8, but I'm not sure if any of them are UTF-8 incompatible.  MM3 only
defines a setting for USA English by default, and that's currently us-ascii,
but maybe even that should be UTF-8.

So I guess unless we can identify actually languages that would be harmed by
UTF-8, we should just require that.  Maybe Steve can weigh in on the issue.

-Barry
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From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Oct 19 09:42:02 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 16:42:02 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman3: decorating non-ascii message
 templates
In-Reply-To: <20131018180107.55dbaa7b@anarchist>
References: <525BF4C1.6040901@bompard.org> <20131018180107.55dbaa7b@anarchist>
Message-ID: <87hacdg111.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Barry Warsaw writes:

 > >So how should we deal with this? I think that the TemplateLoader in
 > >mailman.app.templates should return unicode strings, because that's the
 > >closest to the moment when files are read, and unicode conversion should
 > >happen on the "external borders" of the application.
 > 
 > Completely agreed.  We need to convert to unicode at the edges and
 > treat strings internally as unicode. 

+1

 > >Thus the TemplateLoader's get() method seems to be the right place.  I see
 > >two options:
 > >
 > >- We require that all template files are stored in either ascii or
 > >utf-8. That's the easiest way to go, and we just decode the text after
 > >getting the file.
 > >
 > >- We use the fact that our Language entities contain encoding values.

 > I would vote for UTF-8 for all files, internal or external, but
 > maybe there are some languages for which this will cause problems.

I don't think there are, any more.  There are some programmers and
translators for whom it will be annoying, and maybe the Chinese
government will refuse to use Mailman (they have some requirement that
software use GB18030, which is Red Unicode).

(BTW, I've always been in favor of making UTF the default for text
files using programs, all the way back to PEP 263.)

 > We do have a `charset` variable in the config file for languages,

Which is useless for the languages where we would actually care
because there are multiple charsets in common use in those languages,
and any setting will surely screw up some users.

 > that some of the charsets in MM2.1 are not UTF-8, but I'm not sure
 > if any of them are UTF-8 incompatible.

I'll take a look but it will have to be after I get back from the
Mentor Summit.  Wish you were here!

Steve

From jimpop at gmail.com  Mon Oct 21 00:17:17 2013
From: jimpop at gmail.com (Jim Popovitch)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 18:17:17 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman DMARC Support (it's not what you
	think!)
Message-ID: <CAGfsgR29gv4F=A_mmEFeaFDFneWhKCrr_hRSN7p2=72Rwp8a6g@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Having read the archives, I see that (at least 6 of) you are aware of
DMARC, or as I like to call it YAPFS. (Yet Another Panacea For Spam)
:-)

Earlier this year Mark asked me to run by MM-Dev a patch that Phil
Pennock and I collaborated on.  Mark, thank you for your valuable
feedback, I have addressed all but 1 of those issues.

Phil's and my take is that mailing lists, like MTAs, have no business
modifying the From header; nor should mailing lists accept mail that
they knowingly can't reflect.  To that end, we have added support for
testing the From domain for a DMARC p=reject policy, and if it exists,
allowing lists to Accept/Hold/Reject/Discard the message.

Here is the LP diff for your perusal:
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~jimpop/mailman/dmarc-reject/revision/1379?remember=1379&compare_revid=1374

I will soon be porting this to 3.0, and I will return here for input
on that as well.

Thank you everyone for your valued opinions,

-Jim P.

From iane at sussex.ac.uk  Mon Oct 21 16:03:22 2013
From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:03:22 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Migration script from MM2 to MM3
In-Reply-To: <20130921114810.3b4648c6@anarchist>
References: <CAHmoxtVdK1NZyqtDppoSc2NeaGKWvzQEk+M=DJb9GJfufSQhig@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130921114810.3b4648c6@anarchist>
Message-ID: <E4CF91EA-C179-40C7-8A3F-10C884059500@sussex.ac.uk>


On 21 Sep 2013, at 16:48, Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org> wrote:

> On Sep 20, 2013, at 12:46 PM, Aurelien Bompard wrote:
> 
>> What do you think? Bad timing? Any existing work I'm missing?
> 
> I think it's a *great* idea.
> 
> No, perfect timing.
> 
> Not that I know of! :)
> 
> What we've said in the past is that we weren't going to promise conversion
> scripts from 2.1 to 3.0, partly because that work was incomplete, but also
> because we wanted to caution users not to just blindly upgrade as soon as 3.0
> is released.  But I think having a reliable, well-tested, non-destructive
> option to upgrade would be wonderful, especially because I fully hope that a
> site could run 2.1 and 3.0 together for a while.

Presumably, with some lists on 2.1, and others on 3.0.

That would mean the admin would need to be able to specify which lists to migrate. 

I guess you might want to consider whether special handling is needed for virtual domains. I know we?ve been operating a nasty cludge, where we?re using SUBDOMAIN_LISTNAME at DOMAIN for an internal representation of LISTNAME at SUBDOMAIN.DOMAIN. I suppose that?s unusual or unique, but it might be nice to allow migration of a list in 2.1 to a list with a new name in 3.0.

> Any help you need, let me know.
> 
> (I've been ridiculously swamped at work these past few weeks.  Apologies for
> being rather quiet lately.  I hope that'll improve in the next couple of
> weeks.)
> 
> Cheers,
> -Barry
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/iane%40sussex.ac.uk
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9

-- 
Ian Eiloart
Postmaster, University of Sussex
+44 (0) 1273 87-3148


From iane at sussex.ac.uk  Mon Oct 21 16:54:59 2013
From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:54:59 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3 vs Groupserver vs Sympa
In-Reply-To: <CABhyRUiTe6awqGsqZP8podRUZVoA28DEGxCzSp7CMtfvhfP6Mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABhyRUiTe6awqGsqZP8podRUZVoA28DEGxCzSp7CMtfvhfP6Mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E253E1CB-B65E-43BE-9DA0-7F01FA4D2E05@sussex.ac.uk>

Hi K?ra,

Some additional answers, inline below. Most of your questions relate to the web archiver, and Nico has answered some of those. In order to get all the questions and answers in the same place (so people can see which questions aren?t yet answered here), I?ve rolled Nico?s comments into this reply.

On 7 Oct 2013, at 03:38, K?ra <kxra at riseup.net> wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> My name is K?ra and I am the technology director of the Free Culture
> Foundation as well as a campaigns organizer for the Free Software
> Foundation and we're in need up upgrading our mailing lists to a more
> web-friendly system. I'm doing research on newer list severs to see how
> they compare. So far Groupserver seems to provide everything, but if
> Mailman 3 is going to be released soon, we'd like to consider that as well.
> 
> I'm making a comparison chart and wanted to ask about Mailman 3 (and
> Postorius) features. Answers to any and all of the following with regards
> to Mailman 3 + Postorius would be super helpful:
> 
> Can you post from the web interface?
yes
> Is there file upload support?
yes
> Is there now a search feature? Can it search multiple lists?
yes, yes
> Are there web feeds (atom or rss)? Generated from lists? searches? threads?
> files?
Nico?s plugin API seems to be offering support for this.

> Are posts and administration integrated into the web interface?
I think that site and list administration are not part of the hyperkitty 
> Can you specify a posting rate restriction?

I don?t know.

> Is full css customization for the web interface supported?
> Is css customization for the email interface supported?

Hyperkitty supports "themes". I?m guessing you?ll be able to roll your own.

> Is there site-side logging? (as opposed to server side)
Logging (apart from web accesses) would be a Mailman responsibility. I?m not sure what you mean by "site-side", but perhaps you?re after remote reporting on a domain of yours hosted a third party at a remote site. Again, that?s possible. It could be provided through a web interface, or some other means.

> Is there a link to the post in the web interface in the footer of messages?

That?ll require co-operation between Mailman and the web archive. But, if the web archive URL is predictable, then I think Mailman will be able to do this.

> Now that users are more than just email addresses, can you request to
> contact a list member?

Do you mean from their profile page, or from a list of members? 

> Can users have multiple email addresses?

Yes, that?s a part of users being more than just email addresses.

> Are there profile pages where you can see a summary of their latest posts?
yes
> Can the web interface hide quoted text?
yes
> Are usage statistics provided?

The Hyperkitty change log for 0.1 alpha says "show basic list info and metrics". Certainly the Mailman 2 logs provide enough information from which useful usage stats could be derived. If Hyperkitty doesn?t provide the stats that you want, you?ll likely be able to get them from the log files.


> Thanks!
> 
> Also, did Mailman 2 already support LMTP and virtual domains or are those
> new?

They?re new. Mailman 2 did have partial support of virtual domains, but there was a restriction whereby no two domains could have a list with the same name: so I can?t imagine that this would be useful.

> 
> Best,
> K?ra
> 
> -- 
> Board of Directors, Free Culture Foundation: www.freeculture.org
> Campaigns Organizer, Free Software Foundation: www.fsf.org
> 
> Blog: http://kxra.info  -  StatusNet Microblog: http://identi.ca/kxra
> Email: kxra at freeculture.org  -  SMS: +1.617.340.3661
> Jabber/XMPP: kxra at riseup.net  -  IRC: kxra @freenode @oftc @indymedia
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/iane%40sussex.ac.uk
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9

-- 
Ian Eiloart
Postmaster, University of Sussex
+44 (0) 1273 87-3148


From barry at list.org  Mon Oct 21 23:28:25 2013
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 17:28:25 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Migration script from MM2 to MM3
In-Reply-To: <E4CF91EA-C179-40C7-8A3F-10C884059500@sussex.ac.uk>
References: <CAHmoxtVdK1NZyqtDppoSc2NeaGKWvzQEk+M=DJb9GJfufSQhig@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130921114810.3b4648c6@anarchist>
 <E4CF91EA-C179-40C7-8A3F-10C884059500@sussex.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <20131021172825.586a2cfe@anarchist>

On Oct 21, 2013, at 03:03 PM, Ian Eiloart wrote:

>Presumably, with some lists on 2.1, and others on 3.0.

That's the goal.  I think it's really important to allow sysadmins to migrate
lists in phases so they can gain confidence and experience with the new system
without committing to it whole hog.

>That would mean the admin would need to be able to specify which lists to
>migrate.
>
>I guess you might want to consider whether special handling is needed for
>virtual domains. I know we?ve been operating a nasty cludge, where we?re
>using SUBDOMAIN_LISTNAME at DOMAIN for an internal representation of
>LISTNAME at SUBDOMAIN.DOMAIN. I suppose that?s unusual or unique, but it might
>be nice to allow migration of a list in 2.1 to a list with a new name in 3.0.

Sounds like we may need some hooks in the migration scripts so that admins can
customize it for their needs.  But in general, you're probably right that at
least the migration script will need to take a source list name and migrate
that to a destination list.

Cheers,
-Barry
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From terri at zone12.com  Tue Oct 29 22:35:28 2013
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 17:35:28 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] =?utf-8?q?Mailman_Suite_beta=3A_what=27s_lef?=
	=?utf-8?q?t=3F?=
Message-ID: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>

Stephen, Florian and I had a nice discussion at the GSoC Mentor Summit 
about what's left before we can release a beta of the entire Mailman 
Suite (i.e. Mailman core, Postorius and Hyperkitty packaged together).  
We're getting close!  In fact, close enough that I'm going to suggest 
that we set a beta release target date of Dec 1st.

I know we had a list of 5 things... but for some reason I can't 
remember all of them.  Florian, Stephen, can you chime in?


1. Need a Postorius interface for associating multiple email addresses 
with a single account.  This is probably going to require either an 
email verification, so we might want to have that as part Mailman Core 
rather than doing it directly in Postorius.  Short term, I don't care 
how it's done as long as it verifies that the user actually has access 
to the addresses they link together.

2. Postorius & Hyperkitty need a bit more work on the authentication 
management.  Florian indicated that he's looking for some code review 
for the persona integration and that we'd really like a single sign on 
solution for postorius/hyperkitty to work together seamlessly.

3. We need some nice install scripts or packaging work so that 
installing Mailman Suite is easy.  Probably for beta purposes this can 
just be a shell script, but we also talked about doing a meta "Mailman 
Suite" PyPI package and maybe doing a .deb or .rpm as proof of concept.

4. ??
5. ??

Hopefully Florian and Stephen have better memories than I and can fill 
those in.  Everyone else: anything you know that needs to happen before 
we can get a Mailman Suite beta out?

  Terri



From p at sys4.de  Tue Oct 29 23:06:50 2013
From: p at sys4.de (Patrick Ben Koetter)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 23:06:50 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Suite beta: what's left?
In-Reply-To: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>
References: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>
Message-ID: <20131029220650.GB1988@sys4.de>

* Terri Oda <terri at zone12.com>:

-- SNIP --

> Hopefully Florian and Stephen have better memories than I and can
> fill those in.  Everyone else: anything you know that needs to
> happen before we can get a Mailman Suite beta out?

Maybe documentation that tells interested people how they can start using the
beta?

p at rick


-- 
[*] sys4 AG
 
http://sys4.de, +49 (89) 30 90 46 64
Franziskanerstra?e 15, 81669 M?nchen
 
Sitz der Gesellschaft: M?nchen, Amtsgericht M?nchen: HRB 199263
Vorstand: Patrick Ben Koetter, Axel von der Ohe, Marc Schiffbauer
Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Florian Kirstein
 

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Oct 30 06:07:32 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 14:07:32 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers]  Mailman Suite beta: what's left?
In-Reply-To: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>
References: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>
Message-ID: <87bo27tkh7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Terri Oda writes:

 > I know we had a list of 5 things... but for some reason I can't 
 > remember all of them.  Florian, Stephen, can you chime in?

I don't recall, but I think finishing HyperKitty was one of them.
AFAIK it doesn't work as advertised now (at least that's what Shanu
told me in her work on a unified "Messaging Interface" for Systers).
The documentation is *definitely wrong* in places.

I also wanted a single checkout solution for for the whole suite for
*developers*.  That makes 5, but I don't know if that's the 5 you had
in mind. :-)

 > 1. Need a Postorius interface for associating multiple email addresses 
 > with a single account.  This is probably going to require either an 
 > email verification, so we might want to have that as part Mailman Core 
 > rather than doing it directly in Postorius.

AFAIK Mailman core already knows how to do this.  It's just a question
of how to access and display it in Postorius.  (Barry?)

 > 2. Postorius & Hyperkitty need a bit more work on the authentication 
 > management.  Florian indicated that he's looking for some code review 

OK.

 > 3. We need some nice install scripts or packaging work

Yup.


From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Oct 30 06:12:50 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 14:12:50 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Suite beta: what's left?
In-Reply-To: <20131029220650.GB1988@sys4.de>
References: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>
 <20131029220650.GB1988@sys4.de>
Message-ID: <87a9hrtk8d.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Patrick Ben Koetter writes:

 > Maybe documentation that tells interested people how they can start
 > using the beta?

I'm not sure what you mean.  None of the GSoC students had trouble
with getting Mailman 3 itself up and running once they got it checked
out and installed.  From that point of view, the documentation in the
Mailman checkout seems sufficient.  And we now have two of the three
most popular MTAs covered (Postfix and Exim).

Installation from source is currently somewhat painful, indeed, but I
don't think poor documentation is the problem.  Anyway, good packaging
solves the installation problem.


From terri at zone12.com  Wed Oct 30 06:59:33 2013
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 22:59:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [GRAYMAIL] Re: Mailman Suite beta: what's
 left?
In-Reply-To: <87a9hrtk8d.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>
 <20131029220650.GB1988@sys4.de> <87a9hrtk8d.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <5270A045.2090709@zone12.com>


On 13-10-29 10:12 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Patrick Ben Koetter writes:
>
>   > Maybe documentation that tells interested people how they can start
>   > using the beta?
>
> I'm not sure what you mean.  None of the GSoC students had trouble
> with getting Mailman 3 itself up and running once they got it checked
> out and installed.  From that point of view, the documentation in the
> Mailman checkout seems sufficient.  And we now have two of the three
> most popular MTAs covered (Postfix and Exim).

That's actually not quite true: there are instructions for setting up 
hyperkitty or postorius, but I'm not sure there are instructions 
anywhere for setting up both together as a suite, because most devs are 
working on only one piece.

But yeah, I think packaging well (and then documenting *that*) makes a 
lot more sense, unless someone's feeling particularly inspired?

  Terri



From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Oct 30 07:21:06 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 15:21:06 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Suite beta: what's left?
In-Reply-To: <5270A045.2090709@zone12.com>
References: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>
 <20131029220650.GB1988@sys4.de>
 <87a9hrtk8d.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <5270A045.2090709@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <877gcvth2l.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Terri Oda writes:

 > But yeah, I think packaging [the suite] well (and then documenting
 > *that*) makes a lot more sense,

+1

 > unless someone's feeling particularly inspired?

-10 -- it's all gonna turn upside down when we package, anyway.

[Aside: If you're feeling *that* inspired, volunteer for Google Code-In,
CopyleftGames.org -- Arc sez we gonna need a lotta help!]

Steve


From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Wed Oct 30 09:21:17 2013
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 09:21:17 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Suite beta: what's left?
In-Reply-To: <20131029220650.GB1988@sys4.de>
References: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>
 <20131029220650.GB1988@sys4.de>
Message-ID: <20131030082117.GE6777@charite.de>

* Patrick Ben Koetter <p at sys4.de>:
> * Terri Oda <terri at zone12.com>:
> 
> -- SNIP --
> 
> > Hopefully Florian and Stephen have better memories than I and can
> > fill those in.  Everyone else: anything you know that needs to
> > happen before we can get a Mailman Suite beta out?
> 
> Maybe documentation that tells interested people how they can start using the
> beta?

Absolutely. Topics of interest to me would include:

* what has changed (GUI?)
* how can I install mm2 and mm3 side by side (if possible at all, I'd
  like to be able to switch back an forth if the shit hits the fan)

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de              Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Oct 30 09:52:51 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 17:52:51 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Suite beta: what's left?
In-Reply-To: <20131030082117.GE6777@charite.de>
References: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>
 <20131029220650.GB1988@sys4.de> <20131030082117.GE6777@charite.de>
Message-ID: <8738njta1o.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Ralf Hildebrandt writes:

 > Absolutely. Topics of interest to me would include:
 > 
 > * what has changed (GUI?)

Already in the beta distribution.  But briefly, "everything's all-new,
all-shiny."  There will be mailman2-to-mailman3 migration scripts, of
course, but the admin and archive websites are completely new.  They
are functionally similar so will seem somewhat familiar, of course,
and where possible Postorius maintains a similar layout, I think.

Where else do you expect to find this information, so we can put it
there?

 > * how can I install mm2 and mm3 side by side (if possible at all, I'd
 >   like to be able to switch back an forth if the shit hits the fan)

Uh, just do it?

Of course it will be MTA-specific.  I haven't done it on Postfix, but
for Exim you just add a Mailman3 router and transport ahead of the
Mailman2 router (I've already submitted the docs for that -- they're
very generic -- don't know if Barry's merged them yet), and start
adding Mailman3 lists.  To reverse migrate, make sure the relevant "is
this a mailman3 list" config file is moved out of the way if you want
to switch a migrated list back to Mailman2.

For Postfix, I suppose you have to mess with the aliases directly.

Caveats: (1) I have no idea about importing archives from HyperKitty
into Mailman2.  (2) Reverse migration preserving configuration will
not be trivial -- you'll have to keep the original configs around for
lists that migrate from Mailman2 to Mailman3, and make new ones for
lists newly created on Mailman3.  We could make scripts for (2), but I
wouldn't trust them very much, they're not going to get a lot of testing.




From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Wed Oct 30 10:35:37 2013
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 10:35:37 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Suite beta: what's left?
In-Reply-To: <8738njta1o.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>
 <20131029220650.GB1988@sys4.de> <20131030082117.GE6777@charite.de>
 <8738njta1o.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20131030093537.GN6777@charite.de>

* Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org>:
> Ralf Hildebrandt writes:
> 
>  > Absolutely. Topics of interest to me would include:
>  > 
>  > * what has changed (GUI?)
> 
> Already in the beta distribution.  But briefly, "everything's all-new,
> all-shiny."  There will be mailman2-to-mailman3 migration scripts, of
> course, but the admin and archive websites are completely new.  They
> are functionally similar so will seem somewhat familiar, of course,
> and where possible Postorius maintains a similar layout, I think.

Wonderful.

> Where else do you expect to find this information, so we can put it
> there?

I must admin I haven't tried installing yet, mainly because I didn't
know how to "go back" in case of problems.

> Uh, just do it?

The Nike way :)

> Of course it will be MTA-specific.  I haven't done it on Postfix, but
> for Exim you just add a Mailman3 router and transport ahead of the
> Mailman2 router (I've already submitted the docs for that -- they're
> very generic -- don't know if Barry's merged them yet), and start
> adding Mailman3 lists.  To reverse migrate, make sure the relevant "is
> this a mailman3 list" config file is moved out of the way if you want
> to switch a migrated list back to Mailman2.
> 
> For Postfix, I suppose you have to mess with the aliases directly.

Yes.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de              Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Oct 30 14:33:30 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 22:33:30 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Suite beta: what's left?
In-Reply-To: <20131030093537.GN6777@charite.de>
References: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>
 <20131029220650.GB1988@sys4.de> <20131030082117.GE6777@charite.de>
 <8738njta1o.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <20131030093537.GN6777@charite.de>
Message-ID: <87zjpqsx1x.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Ralf Hildebrandt writes:

 > > Where else do you expect to find this information, so we can put it
 > > there?
 > 
 > I must admin I haven't tried installing yet, mainly because I didn't
 > know how to "go back" in case of problems.

Repeating what I already wrote for completeness here: Migrating and
then going back all at once is not necessary.  You can migrate bit by
bit, although it may require a little bit of manual fiddling if you
get to the point of installing both on a production server.  By
"little bit" I mean installing in {/usr,/var}/lib/mailman3 instead of
{/usr,/var}/lib/mailman where Mailman 2 probably lives.

I have to admit I haven't installed into one of the standard
hierarchies yet; I run my Mailman 3 lists (all test or
non-mission-critical) out of a Python virtualenv in my home directory.

Re installing betas from source:

I wish I could say, "oh, just try it, you'll like it", but building
from source isn't as automatic as I'd like.  It's not a huge extra
effort (ask here), and I have had it install (a few commits back) with
just "bzr clone ...; python bootstrap.py".  I just prefer a reliable,
completely turnkey package when recommending to "pure" beta testers,
and it's not quite that yet.

If you do try it, be warned that a couple of tests may infloop (for
reasons unknown), although only under some circumstances.


Steve

From aurelien at bompard.org  Wed Oct 30 14:49:18 2013
From: aurelien at bompard.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aur=E9lien_Bompard?=)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 14:49:18 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Suite beta: what's left?
In-Reply-To: <87bo27tkh7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>
 <87bo27tkh7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <52710E5E.6070805@bompard.org>

> I don't recall, but I think finishing HyperKitty was one of them.
> AFAIK it doesn't work as advertised now (at least that's what Shanu
> told me in her work on a unified "Messaging Interface" for Systers).

Oh, I'm interested by any bug reports. Please.

> The documentation is *definitely wrong* in places.

Yes, there's been improvements recently, but there again I'd love to be
pointed what's wrong.

For the record I'm currently setting up HyperKitty & Postorius in the
same Django instance, it seems to work fine (didn't test single sign-on
yet but I will).
I've also created a branch and a pull request in Launchpad with lots of
modifications to the import script.
It's been tested on Fedora's ~300 mailing-lists.

As for the packaging side, I will make RPMs for the suite, that will
work on Fedora (and maybe RHEL/CentOS if I can get the Python 2.7
requirement properly sorted out)
In fact, I already have them for the latest Fedora (19).

Aur?lien
-- 
http://aurelien.bompard.org    ~~~~~~    xmpp:aurelien at bompard.org
"Between stimulus and response there's a space, in that space lies
our freedom." -- Viktor Frankl


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From stephen at xemacs.org  Wed Oct 30 16:53:51 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 00:53:51 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Suite beta: what's left?
In-Reply-To: <52710E5E.6070805@bompard.org>
References: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>
 <87bo27tkh7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <52710E5E.6070805@bompard.org>
Message-ID: <87y55asqk0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Aur?lien Bompard writes:

 > > I don't recall, but I think finishing HyperKitty was one of them.
 > > AFAIK it doesn't work as advertised now (at least that's what
 > > Shanu told me in her work on a unified "Messaging Interface" for
 > > Systers).
 > 
 > Oh, I'm interested by any bug reports. Please.

I don't recall precisely what the issues with running HyperKitty were
(she tried installing from source once in March, and again in June).
What killed the deal for her was an inability to get existing archives
imported due to inadequate documentation.  I eventually figured out
how to get that done, but by then I just advised her to use the
trivial archiver from the core.

It looks like the documentation has improved (but I haven't actually
tried following it yet).  And for all of HyperKitty, there were over
1000 lines of changes since March, and and it looks like over 500
since June.  I guess I'll have to try it again before trying to report
bugs.

 > For the record I'm currently setting up HyperKitty & Postorius in the
 > same Django instance, it seems to work fine (didn't test single sign-on
 > yet but I will).

It would be nice if you at least reported releases here occasionally.
According to news.rst there have been two releases since PyCon (1.4
and 1.5), and there is a 1.6 tag in git.

 > I've also created a branch and a pull request in Launchpad with
 > lots of modifications to the import script.

Branch and pull request for what import script?



From terri at zone12.com  Wed Oct 30 17:29:57 2013
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 09:29:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [GRAYMAIL] Mailman Suite beta: what's left?
In-Reply-To: <87bo27tkh7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>
 <87bo27tkh7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <52713405.9070105@zone12.com>


On 13-10-29 10:07 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>   > 1. Need a Postorius interface for associating multiple email addresses
>   > with a single account.  This is probably going to require either an
>   > email verification, so we might want to have that as part Mailman Core
>   > rather than doing it directly in Postorius.
>
> AFAIK Mailman core already knows how to do this.  It's just a question
> of how to access and display it in Postorius.  (Barry?)

I don't have my IRC logs handy, but if I recall correctly, Barry said 
core doesn't have the ability yet but that he didn't think it would be a 
problem to do.  I haven't looked at it yet myself.

  Terri


From aurelien at bompard.org  Wed Oct 30 19:21:00 2013
From: aurelien at bompard.org (=?UTF-8?B?QXVyw6lsaWVuIEJvbXBhcmQ=?=)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 19:21:00 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Suite beta: what's left?
In-Reply-To: <87y55asqk0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>	<87bo27tkh7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>	<52710E5E.6070805@bompard.org>
 <87y55asqk0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <52714E0C.9080102@bompard.org>

> It would be nice if you at least reported releases here
> occasionally.

Very true, I need to do that.

>> I've also created a branch and a pull request in Launchpad with
>> lots of modifications to the import script.
>
> Branch and pull request for what import script?

The "import21" command, which is meant to import an existing 2.1 pickle
configuration file into Mailman 3
Here's the pull request (or rather "branch merge proposal"):
https://code.launchpad.net/~abompard/mailman/import21/+merge/192146


Aur?lien
-- 
http://aurelien.bompard.org    ~~~~~~    xmpp:aurelien at bompard.org
This mail is displayed with recycled electrons



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From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Oct 31 06:00:58 2013
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:00:58 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Suite beta: what's left?
In-Reply-To: <52714E0C.9080102@bompard.org>
References: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>
 <87bo27tkh7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <52710E5E.6070805@bompard.org>
 <87y55asqk0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
 <52714E0C.9080102@bompard.org>
Message-ID: <87txfyrq45.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Aur?lien Bompard writes:

 > > Branch and pull request for what import script?
 > 
 > The "import21" command, which is meant to import an existing 2.1 pickle
 > configuration file into Mailman 3

Ah, now I see.  I thought you were still talking about importing
archives.

Thank you very much for this work!


From flo.fuchs at gmail.com  Thu Oct 31 22:45:03 2013
From: flo.fuchs at gmail.com (Florian Fuchs)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:45:03 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Suite beta: what's left?
In-Reply-To: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>
References: <421c057a11001f7ae9b763de6ad807f4@toybox.ca>
Message-ID: <5272CF5F.2010408@gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi there...

On 10/29/2013 10:35 PM, Terri Oda wrote:
> Stephen, Florian and I had a nice discussion at the GSoC Mentor
> Summit about what's left before we can release a beta of the entire
> Mailman Suite (i.e. Mailman core, Postorius and Hyperkitty packaged
> together). We're getting close!  In fact, close enough that I'm
> going to suggest that we set a beta release target date of Dec
> 1st.
> 
> I know we had a list of 5 things... but for some reason I can't
> remember all of them.  Florian, Stephen, can you chime in?
> 
> 
> 1. Need a Postorius interface for associating multiple email
> addresses with a single account.  This is probably going to require
> either an email verification, so we might want to have that as part
> Mailman Core rather than doing it directly in Postorius.  Short
> term, I don't care how it's done as long as it verifies that the
> user actually has access to the addresses they link together.

Short term we could use django-registration to verify additional email
addresses. It should be very easy to integrate with Postorius. Plus
it's maintained by one of the Django people so I guess it's stable
enough to work even long term.

> 2. Postorius & Hyperkitty need a bit more work on the
> authentication management.  Florian indicated that he's looking for
> some code review for the persona integration and that we'd really
> like a single sign on solution for postorius/hyperkitty to work
> together seamlessly.

I got a branch almost ready (90%-ish) for merging that contains A) a
change from our current Persona integration (django-social-auth) to
Mozilla's own django app and B) some code to take domains created in
Mailman-core into account when verifying Persona tokens. Since this is
a security issue, I'd really like to have a second set of eyes having
a look at it before merging. (Yes, I'm especially looking at you Dr.
Terri! I'll poke you when I've added the remaining 10%... ;-) That's
next on my list as soon as I have reduced my current
post-travel-pile-of-errands a bit.

Re: Hyperkitty: Last time I checked it didn't seem to implement any
access control for non-public lists. This isn't really a bug, but it
restricts HK to be used with public lists only.
@Aurelien: Is that correct? If so: Would you mind me suggesting some
ideas to add member checking for private lists?

> 3. We need some nice install scripts or packaging work so that 
> installing Mailman Suite is easy.  Probably for beta purposes this
> can just be a shell script, but we also talked about doing a meta
> "Mailman Suite" PyPI package and maybe doing a .deb or .rpm as
> proof of concept.
> 
> 4. ??

I'm not sure, but I *think* I mentioned I wanted to add some changes
to Postorius' test suite before releasing the beta. Which isn't really
a *feature*, more like an itch that needed scratching. Anyway, I
merged that one last week.

> 5. ??

Owner/Moderator removal. It's essential, but implementation-wise
that's a minor thing.

> Hopefully Florian and Stephen have better memories

Well, I'm not sure myself if items 4 and 5 were really the ones we
talked about... ;-)

Cheers
Florian

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