From i at mindlace.net  Sun Sep  2 14:23:52 2012
From: i at mindlace.net (Ethan Fremen)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 14:23:52 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Working on Postorius
Message-ID: <CAMAA7uZ_ZLVGxjVyHFLuH0-DCR=apbapUiQwHQ2hsqpda-_DiQ@mail.gmail.com>

OK, I finally got postorius running.

I had to make a few small changes to postorius_standalone to get it
working, and I would like to add instructions to the 5 minute guide for
getting things set up with Virtualenv so you don't have to install all this
stuff in system locations.

I don't have rights to edit/comment on the 5-minute-guide page, and I am
not sure how I should deal with commit changes I make...

Thanks,

~ethan fremen

From barry at list.org  Tue Sep  4 17:01:51 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 11:01:51 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Working on Postorius
In-Reply-To: <CAMAA7uZ_ZLVGxjVyHFLuH0-DCR=apbapUiQwHQ2hsqpda-_DiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMAA7uZ_ZLVGxjVyHFLuH0-DCR=apbapUiQwHQ2hsqpda-_DiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120904110151.1667e420@resist.wooz.org>

On Sep 02, 2012, at 02:23 PM, Ethan Fremen wrote:

>OK, I finally got postorius running.

Excellent!

>I had to make a few small changes to postorius_standalone to get it
>working, and I would like to add instructions to the 5 minute guide for
>getting things set up with Virtualenv so you don't have to install all this
>stuff in system locations.

+1

>I don't have rights to edit/comment on the 5-minute-guide page, and I am
>not sure how I should deal with commit changes I make...

Our workflow for both the core and Postorius, is to submit merge proposals via
Launchpad.  So basically, you use bzr to create your own local branch, hack on
that, pushing it to Launchpad periodically.  Then you submit a merge proposal
to ask that your code be merged into trunk.  Someone with write permission to
the trunk will review the code, provide feedback, and/or commit the merge if
it looks good.

You will definitely want to keep your working branches small and tightly
focused.  Say, one branch per bug fix or new feature.  The smaller the branch,
the easier it is to review.  Once your branch is merged, don't reuse it for
the next feature or bug.

This all happens with the beauty of a dvcs like bzr and a nice hosting site
like Launchpad.  Of course, there are lots of similar sites and tools, but we
use bzr and Launchpad.

http://help.launchpad.net has lots of useful hints for using this kind of
workflow, but of course, feel free to ask questions here or on #mailman.

Cheers,
-Barry


From i at mindlace.net  Wed Sep  5 13:49:09 2012
From: i at mindlace.net (Ethan Fremen)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 13:49:09 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Working on Postorius
In-Reply-To: <20120904110151.1667e420@resist.wooz.org>
References: <CAMAA7uZ_ZLVGxjVyHFLuH0-DCR=apbapUiQwHQ2hsqpda-_DiQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120904110151.1667e420@resist.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <CAMAA7uYJx3V=rEB3PVygsL88JtN4wsSY2w6Lnn33150jfO9pYA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org> wrote:

> On Sep 02, 2012, at 02:23 PM, Ethan Fremen wrote:
>
> >I don't have rights to edit/comment on the 5-minute-guide page
>

I want to improve the wiki docs. Can I -
http://wiki.list.org/display/~mindlace - have permission to edit
http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/A+5+minute+guide+to+get+the+Mailman+web+UI+running?

Or should I just submit the docs here?


[snip helpful tips on workflow]

Thanks,

~ethan

From i at mindlace.net  Wed Sep  5 14:01:34 2012
From: i at mindlace.net (Ethan Fremen)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 14:01:34 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Sample / dummy / generated data for mailman?
Message-ID: <CAMAA7uZB-XNj4TcUtMuBLMCea+qkg1MmM08hZx1oesf3ZMKtUg@mail.gmail.com>

Is there any way to automatically generate lists/messages/members etc?

If not, how do you (existing devs) go about setting up mailman with said
data?

I am interested in working on
https://bugs.launchpad.net/postorius/+bug/1004049 , and so need to add some
emails in "pending" state. More generally, having a bunch of
lists/users/etc would be helpful in developing the UI further.

(for what its worth, I did search the mailman devs archive and look through
the docs before asking this)

Thanks,

~ethan fremen

From barry at list.org  Wed Sep  5 15:37:53 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 09:37:53 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Sample / dummy / generated data for
 mailman?
In-Reply-To: <CAMAA7uZB-XNj4TcUtMuBLMCea+qkg1MmM08hZx1oesf3ZMKtUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMAA7uZB-XNj4TcUtMuBLMCea+qkg1MmM08hZx1oesf3ZMKtUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120905093753.18a1fac6@resist.wooz.org>

On Sep 05, 2012, at 02:01 PM, Ethan Fremen wrote:

>Is there any way to automatically generate lists/messages/members etc?
>
>If not, how do you (existing devs) go about setting up mailman with said
>data?
>
>I am interested in working on
>https://bugs.launchpad.net/postorius/+bug/1004049 , and so need to add some
>emails in "pending" state. More generally, having a bunch of
>lists/users/etc would be helpful in developing the UI further.

In general, I'm not a fan of sample data for tests.  Back in my Launchpad
days, we had tons of sample data that the tests relied on and we had a
terrible experience with it.  It makes tests brittle, difficult to understand
the initial state, very difficult to change or update, etc.  We were slowly
weening ourselves off of sample data by the time I moved on to other
projects.

The alternative is for the tests themselves to explicitly set up whatever
minimal state they are testing, usually in their setUp() methods.  They
typically use the internal APIs (e.g. interfaces and a few other convenience
functions) to set things up, including mailing lists, users, pending requests,
emails in queues, etc.  There's also a test helper that ensures all that state
is cleaned up after each test, and this is hooked into the test layers (though
eventually I'd like to get rid of zope.testing).

The mm3 does have a small amount of sample data, but only for the schema
migration tests.  Because the model can't be used to set up the test state, we
basically create an unmigrated database and populate it from sample data, then
run through the migrations, and test the results through the model.  The model
can't be used to set up the initial state because it already reflects the
migrated schema and because it's Python code, it's not easy to change in the
middle of a test.

I'm not sure how it's done in Postorius, but for the core, you can look
through the substantial amounts of existing tests to see how things are done.
There's probably a bit of "style skew" with the older tests doing things a bit
out of what I now consider good style, but I've tried to spend some time
getting the tests in a consistent state.

Hopefully that helps.
-Barry


From f at state-of-mind.de  Wed Sep  5 20:25:14 2012
From: f at state-of-mind.de (Florian Fuchs)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 20:25:14 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Sample / dummy / generated data for
	mailman?
In-Reply-To: <20120905093753.18a1fac6@resist.wooz.org>
References: <CAMAA7uZB-XNj4TcUtMuBLMCea+qkg1MmM08hZx1oesf3ZMKtUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120905093753.18a1fac6@resist.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <5047990A.5020106@state-of-mind.de>

Hi Ethan,

if you work on the Python side of Postorius, like Barry said, you don't 
really need sample data in form of "real" lists/held messages/etc. 
*Ideally*, the code is covered by tests that don't rely on sample data 
(or even the mailman core) to be present (see an example in the source[1]).

That being said, Postorius is in some kind of transition when it comes 
to testing. We used to have some tests based on the Django test HTTP 
client which tested more or less the whole stack, using a temporary 
mailman database. But this was slow, complicated and error-prone.

All communication with the mailman core happens through mailman.client 
and the data expected to come out of it is pretty well documented in the 
docs [2][3]. That makes it pretty easy to use mock API return values to 
test our business logic (like in the example above). There are also nice 
ways in Django to test login status without touching the database and to 
test response/request objects without making actual HTTP calls. All of 
this can make testing more efficient and fun. I hope we can design our 
future tests more like that (suggestions are welcome!).

OTOH: If you work on the HTML/CSS side it can make your life easier to 
have *some* real data present. You can add lists, domains, users etc. to 
a local mailman installation without having to care about working MTA 
settings. Feeding real emails into the local system is a little bit more 
complicated. Also, it is little fun to compose actual mails for every 
scenario that might be relevant for the UI (overlong texts etc.). I 
prefer to test a design directly in the templates or change the data in 
Firebug or even temporarily manipulate the output of the view code.

Hope this helps...!

Cheers
Florian


[1] 
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/postorius/trunk/view/head:/src/postorius/tests/test_list_members.py
[2] 
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/3.0/files/head:/src/mailman/rest/docs/
[3] 
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman.client/trunk/view/head:/mailman/client/docs/using.txt





On 09/05/2012 03:37 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Sep 05, 2012, at 02:01 PM, Ethan Fremen wrote:
>
>> Is there any way to automatically generate lists/messages/members etc?
>>
>> If not, how do you (existing devs) go about setting up mailman with said
>> data?
>>
>> I am interested in working on
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/postorius/+bug/1004049 , and so need to add some
>> emails in "pending" state. More generally, having a bunch of
>> lists/users/etc would be helpful in developing the UI further.
>
> In general, I'm not a fan of sample data for tests.  Back in my Launchpad
> days, we had tons of sample data that the tests relied on and we had a
> terrible experience with it.  It makes tests brittle, difficult to understand
> the initial state, very difficult to change or update, etc.  We were slowly
> weening ourselves off of sample data by the time I moved on to other
> projects.
>
> The alternative is for the tests themselves to explicitly set up whatever
> minimal state they are testing, usually in their setUp() methods.  They
> typically use the internal APIs (e.g. interfaces and a few other convenience
> functions) to set things up, including mailing lists, users, pending requests,
> emails in queues, etc.  There's also a test helper that ensures all that state
> is cleaned up after each test, and this is hooked into the test layers (though
> eventually I'd like to get rid of zope.testing).
>
> The mm3 does have a small amount of sample data, but only for the schema
> migration tests.  Because the model can't be used to set up the test state, we
> basically create an unmigrated database and populate it from sample data, then
> run through the migrations, and test the results through the model.  The model
> can't be used to set up the initial state because it already reflects the
> migrated schema and because it's Python code, it's not easy to change in the
> middle of a test.
>
> I'm not sure how it's done in Postorius, but for the core, you can look
> through the substantial amounts of existing tests to see how things are done.
> There's probably a bit of "style skew" with the older tests doing things a bit
> out of what I now consider good style, but I've tried to spend some time
> getting the tests in a consistent state.
>
> Hopefully that helps.
> -Barry
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/f%40state-of-mind.de
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>

From barry at list.org  Thu Sep  6 03:38:00 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 21:38:00 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Event notifications
In-Reply-To: <CACeRBzmvzC-BN0wyHb8kgqY=dVAzQz54h+fJWSSHNQyuMe4QFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACeRBzmvzC-BN0wyHb8kgqY=dVAzQz54h+fJWSSHNQyuMe4QFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120905213800.323df97e@resist.wooz.org>

On Aug 02, 2012, at 12:13 PM, George Chatzisofroniou wrote:

>It looks like the only notification the core provides is that of new
>postings (through the IArchiver interface). It would be great if core
>could provide notifications for more events (like someone subscribed
>or a new thread started) that also carry more information (for
>postings: number of recipients and message size).
>
>So, what i suggest is basically a message bus that components can
>register for notifications. I'm not sure if this has been discussed
>before and is already in the plans.

Within the Mailman core, events are triggered using zope.event.notify().  This
is basically a very simply subscribe-notify system where class instances
represent the notifications.  A few things internally depend on this to
perform certain actions, such as removing the members of a mailing list before
that mailing list is deleted.

The idea is that plugins could subscribe to those events if they wanted to
perform additional operations when certain events occur.

I've taken a mostly organic approach to adding new events, adding them only
when needed internally.  I'm open to adding new event notifications as
necessary to support add-ons or new internal functionality.  The way to
request this is via the Launchpad bug tracker.

Cheers,
-Barry


From g.c.b.at.work at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 20:11:43 2012
From: g.c.b.at.work at gmail.com (G B)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 11:11:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] 3.0.0b1 fails bootstrap.py on Mountain Lion
Message-ID: <14C37A74-1EC6-42DB-9500-73632A8361AB@gmail.com>

I initially posted this to mailman-users, but it was suggested that this would be a better list.

I'm installing Mailman for the first time, and chose to try the beta.  I'm installing on a Mountain Lion Server, that was cleanly installed.   I've since updated the OS to 10.8.1

I got as far as 'python bootstrap.py' and it failed immediately with the following traceback:

????????????????????????--
Traceback (most recent call last):
 File "bootstrap.py", line 157, in <module>
   import pkg_resources
 File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/../../Extras/lib/python/pkg_resources.py", line 698, in <module>
   class Environment(object):
 File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/../../Extras/lib/python/pkg_resources.py", line 701, in Environment
   def __init__(self, search_path=None, platform=get_supported_platform(), python=PY_MAJOR):
 File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/../../Extras/lib/python/pkg_resources.py", line 99, in get_supported_platform
   plat = 'macosx-%s-%s' % ('.'.join(_macosx_vers()[:2]), m.group(3))
 File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/../../Extras/lib/python/pkg_resources.py", line 209, in _macosx_vers
   _cache.append(mac_ver()[0].split('.'))
 File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/platform.py", line 803, in mac_ver
 File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/platform.py", line 780, in _mac_ver_xml
 File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/plistlib.py", line 78, in readPlist
 File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/plistlib.py", line 406, in parse
 File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/plistlib.py", line 418, in handleEndElement
 File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/plistlib.py", line 452, in end_key
 File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/plistlib.py", line 436, in getData
LookupError: unknown encoding: ascii
??????????????????????????

FWIW, I can open an interactive Python session and execute "import pkg_resources"  from the command line without error.

Any ideas?

Thanks?
Greg


From terri at zone12.com  Thu Sep  6 21:53:04 2012
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2012 13:53:04 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] 3.0.0b1 fails bootstrap.py on Mountain Lion
In-Reply-To: <14C37A74-1EC6-42DB-9500-73632A8361AB@gmail.com>
References: <14C37A74-1EC6-42DB-9500-73632A8361AB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5048FF20.4030404@zone12.com>

I haven't upgraded to Mountain Lion yet myself so I can't test, but if 
it's helpful, I can at least confirm that I did a new install on Lion 
about two weeks ago and it worked, so it's probably something specific 
to Mountain Lion or your machine's setup, not a problem with macos more 
generally.

The weird thing is that it looks like it's actually barfing on parsing 
the version number itself, which makes me wonder if maybe mountain 
lion's reporting the version in a slightly different syntax than 
expected or something doesn't think it's available for that version 
number.

It might be worth installing a fresh version of python in case there's 
just something up with the version macos provides, and I *did* have some 
problem with the wrong version of setuptools that required me to clear 
/Library/Python/2.7/site-packages/ before bootstrap.py would behave 
properly (See http://terriko.dreamwidth.org/104072.html for my note to 
self on what went wrong with bootstrap.py in my case).  The latter seems 
unlikely on a fresh install, but trying it doesn't hurt anything since 
bootstrap will just redownload those packages.

  Terri

On 09/06/2012 12:11 PM, G B wrote:
> I initially posted this to mailman-users, but it was suggested that this would be a better list.
>
> I'm installing Mailman for the first time, and chose to try the beta.  I'm installing on a Mountain Lion Server, that was cleanly installed.   I've since updated the OS to 10.8.1
>
> I got as far as 'python bootstrap.py' and it failed immediately with the following traceback:
>
> ????????????????????????--
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "bootstrap.py", line 157, in <module>
>     import pkg_resources
>   File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/../../Extras/lib/python/pkg_resources.py", line 698, in <module>
>     class Environment(object):
>   File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/../../Extras/lib/python/pkg_resources.py", line 701, in Environment
>     def __init__(self, search_path=None, platform=get_supported_platform(), python=PY_MAJOR):
>   File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/../../Extras/lib/python/pkg_resources.py", line 99, in get_supported_platform
>     plat = 'macosx-%s-%s' % ('.'.join(_macosx_vers()[:2]), m.group(3))
>   File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/../../Extras/lib/python/pkg_resources.py", line 209, in _macosx_vers
>     _cache.append(mac_ver()[0].split('.'))
>   File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/platform.py", line 803, in mac_ver
>   File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/platform.py", line 780, in _mac_ver_xml
>   File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/plistlib.py", line 78, in readPlist
>   File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/plistlib.py", line 406, in parse
>   File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/plistlib.py", line 418, in handleEndElement
>   File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/plistlib.py", line 452, in end_key
>   File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/plistlib.py", line 436, in getData
> LookupError: unknown encoding: ascii
> ??????????????????????????
>
> FWIW, I can open an interactive Python session and execute "import pkg_resources"  from the command line without error.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks?
> Greg
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/terri%40zone12.com
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>


From barry at list.org  Fri Sep  7 04:05:59 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 22:05:59 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] 3.0.0b1 fails bootstrap.py on Mountain Lion
In-Reply-To: <14C37A74-1EC6-42DB-9500-73632A8361AB@gmail.com>
References: <14C37A74-1EC6-42DB-9500-73632A8361AB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120906220559.39efa679@resist.wooz.org>

On Sep 06, 2012, at 11:11 AM, G B wrote:

>I initially posted this to mailman-users, but it was suggested that this
>would be a better list.
>
>I'm installing Mailman for the first time, and chose to try the beta.  I'm
>installing on a Mountain Lion Server, that was cleanly installed.  I've since
>updated the OS to 10.8.1
>
>I got as far as 'python bootstrap.py' and it failed immediately with the
>following traceback:

I don't have OS X 10.8 yet, but I tried it on my 10.6.8 machine, using
MacPorts' Python 2.7.

I was able to bootstrap, but bin/buildout failed downloading one of the zc
recipes.  I don't have much in /opt/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages and I
didn't spend much time debugging the problem.

However, I was able to create a virtualenv and do a `python setup.py install`
into that virtualenv just fine.  I tested with `mailman info` but didn't try
to much else.

I'm guessing it's something weird with 10.8's built-in Python 2.7.

Cheers,
-Barry


From richard at NFSNet.org  Fri Sep  7 05:23:46 2012
From: richard at NFSNet.org (Richard Wackerbarth)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 22:23:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] 3.0.0b1 fails bootstrap.py on Mountain Lion
In-Reply-To: <20120906220559.39efa679@resist.wooz.org>
References: <14C37A74-1EC6-42DB-9500-73632A8361AB@gmail.com>
	<20120906220559.39efa679@resist.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <AF1092D7-B042-47F9-815E-033C9557AD16@NFSNet.org>

Barry,

I have 10.7 and, today, I had the same problem.

Yesterday, I was able to set things up without any problems.

I think that the difference is that z3c.recipe.tag has bumped the version number to 0.5 but that the distribution is missing one of its files.

By manually downloading the package, I was able to fake the missing CHANGES.txt file and pre-install the module.

After that, the install worked just fine.

The Postorius install still needs some additional tweaking to make it work "out of the box", but it is progressing.

Richard


On Sep 6, 2012, at 9:05 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

> On Sep 06, 2012, at 11:11 AM, G B wrote:
> 
>> I initially posted this to mailman-users, but it was suggested that this
>> would be a better list.
>> 
>> I'm installing Mailman for the first time, and chose to try the beta.  I'm
>> installing on a Mountain Lion Server, that was cleanly installed.  I've since
>> updated the OS to 10.8.1
>> 
>> I got as far as 'python bootstrap.py' and it failed immediately with the
>> following traceback:
> 
> I don't have OS X 10.8 yet, but I tried it on my 10.6.8 machine, using
> MacPorts' Python 2.7.
> 
> I was able to bootstrap, but bin/buildout failed downloading one of the zc
> recipes.  I don't have much in /opt/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages and I
> didn't spend much time debugging the problem.
> 
> However, I was able to create a virtualenv and do a `python setup.py install`
> into that virtualenv just fine.  I tested with `mailman info` but didn't try
> to much else.
> 
> I'm guessing it's something weird with 10.8's built-in Python 2.7.
> 
> Cheers,
> -Barry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/richard%40nfsnet.org
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9


From g.c.b.at.work at gmail.com  Fri Sep  7 05:54:03 2012
From: g.c.b.at.work at gmail.com (G B)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 20:54:03 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] 3.0.0b1 fails bootstrap.py on Mountain Lion
In-Reply-To: <AF1092D7-B042-47F9-815E-033C9557AD16@NFSNet.org>
References: <14C37A74-1EC6-42DB-9500-73632A8361AB@gmail.com>
	<20120906220559.39efa679@resist.wooz.org>
	<AF1092D7-B042-47F9-815E-033C9557AD16@NFSNet.org>
Message-ID: <93B067FA-A5B5-4784-AD95-863F9E063C16@gmail.com>

Hey Richard?

How hard would it be to recreate your solution?  Could I bumble my way through it with no Mailman, no Zope, and limited Python experience?

Maybe the first question I should ask is whether I should be trying the beta, or if I should stick to the 2.x release.  I chose the beta to start with because I don't expect this to be a high traffic system and I'd hoped to gain the benefit of the new web interface and save the trouble of updating from 2->3 later.

Thanks?
 Greg


On Sep 6, 2012, at 8:23 PM, Richard Wackerbarth <richard at NFSNet.org> wrote:

> Barry,
> 
> I have 10.7 and, today, I had the same problem.
> 
> Yesterday, I was able to set things up without any problems.
> 
> I think that the difference is that z3c.recipe.tag has bumped the version number to 0.5 but that the distribution is missing one of its files.
> 
> By manually downloading the package, I was able to fake the missing CHANGES.txt file and pre-install the module.
> 
> After that, the install worked just fine.
> 
> The Postorius install still needs some additional tweaking to make it work "out of the box", but it is progressing.
> 
> Richard
> 
> 
> On Sep 6, 2012, at 9:05 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> 
>> On Sep 06, 2012, at 11:11 AM, G B wrote:
>> 
>>> I initially posted this to mailman-users, but it was suggested that this
>>> would be a better list.
>>> 
>>> I'm installing Mailman for the first time, and chose to try the beta.  I'm
>>> installing on a Mountain Lion Server, that was cleanly installed.  I've since
>>> updated the OS to 10.8.1
>>> 
>>> I got as far as 'python bootstrap.py' and it failed immediately with the
>>> following traceback:
>> 
>> I don't have OS X 10.8 yet, but I tried it on my 10.6.8 machine, using
>> MacPorts' Python 2.7.
>> 
>> I was able to bootstrap, but bin/buildout failed downloading one of the zc
>> recipes.  I don't have much in /opt/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages and I
>> didn't spend much time debugging the problem.
>> 
>> However, I was able to create a virtualenv and do a `python setup.py install`
>> into that virtualenv just fine.  I tested with `mailman info` but didn't try
>> to much else.
>> 
>> I'm guessing it's something weird with 10.8's built-in Python 2.7.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> -Barry
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mailman-Developers mailing list
>> Mailman-Developers at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
>> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
>> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/richard%40nfsnet.org
>> 
>> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/g.c.b.at.work%40gmail.com
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9


From barry at list.org  Fri Sep  7 05:38:32 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 23:38:32 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] 3.0.0b1 fails bootstrap.py on Mountain Lion
In-Reply-To: <AF1092D7-B042-47F9-815E-033C9557AD16@NFSNet.org>
References: <14C37A74-1EC6-42DB-9500-73632A8361AB@gmail.com>
	<20120906220559.39efa679@resist.wooz.org>
	<AF1092D7-B042-47F9-815E-033C9557AD16@NFSNet.org>
Message-ID: <20120906233832.056bb4bb@resist.wooz.org>

On Sep 06, 2012, at 10:23 PM, Richard Wackerbarth wrote:

>I have 10.7 and, today, I had the same problem.
>
>Yesterday, I was able to set things up without any problems.
>
>I think that the difference is that z3c.recipe.tag has bumped the version
>number to 0.5 but that the distribution is missing one of its files.

Yep.  I sent a message off to zope-dev (the maintainer address in the
setup.py) and distutils-sig (where buildout folks hang out).  I couldn't find
a bug tracker for the package.  Let's hope a new version gets uploaded soon.

>By manually downloading the package, I was able to fake the missing
>CHANGES.txt file and pre-install the module.

Nice workaround, thanks!

>After that, the install worked just fine.
>
>The Postorius install still needs some additional tweaking to make it work
>"out of the box", but it is progressing.

Awesome!

-Barry

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From sophron at latthi.com  Fri Sep  7 13:25:52 2012
From: sophron at latthi.com (George Chatzisofroniou)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 14:25:52 +0300
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Event notifications
In-Reply-To: <20120905213800.323df97e@resist.wooz.org>
References: <CACeRBzmvzC-BN0wyHb8kgqY=dVAzQz54h+fJWSSHNQyuMe4QFg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120905213800.323df97e@resist.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <20120907112551.GA2217@gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 05, 2012 at 09:38:00PM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> I've taken a mostly organic approach to adding new events, adding them only
> when needed internally.  I'm open to adding new event notifications as
> necessary to support add-ons or new internal functionality.  The way to
> request this is via the Launchpad bug tracker.

Thanks for the response. I requested this via Launchpad [1].

[1]: https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1047286

-- 
George Chatzisofroniou
sophron.latthi.com
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From richard at NFSNet.org  Fri Sep  7 13:49:11 2012
From: richard at NFSNet.org (Richard Wackerbarth)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 06:49:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] 3.0.0b1 fails bootstrap.py on Mountain Lion
In-Reply-To: <93B067FA-A5B5-4784-AD95-863F9E063C16@gmail.com>
References: <14C37A74-1EC6-42DB-9500-73632A8361AB@gmail.com>
	<20120906220559.39efa679@resist.wooz.org>
	<AF1092D7-B042-47F9-815E-033C9557AD16@NFSNet.org>
	<93B067FA-A5B5-4784-AD95-863F9E063C16@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D07E626D-4683-4753-9E30-E10823B94054@NFSNet.org>

Greg,

First, let me address your choice of versions. Although the mail handling part of MM3 seems to be in pretty good shape, the Web UI still has quite a bit that hasn't been "fleshed out".  Traffic volume is not really a concern. If anything, the high traffic installations might be more inclined to prefer the MM3 architecture.

Depending on how much you need the Web UI, you may prefer to stick with MM2 (unless you would like to help us finish parts of the Postorius interface).

As for "recreating" my work-around, I will provide additional details in response to the other sub-thread of this discussion.

- Richard "Wacky" Wackerbarth

On Sep 6, 2012, at 10:54 PM, G B wrote:

> Hey Richard?
> 
> How hard would it be to recreate your solution?  Could I bumble my way through it with no Mailman, no Zope, and limited Python experience?
> 
> Maybe the first question I should ask is whether I should be trying the beta, or if I should stick to the 2.x release.  I chose the beta to start with because I don't expect this to be a high traffic system and I'd hoped to gain the benefit of the new web interface and save the trouble of updating from 2->3 later.
> 
> Thanks?
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Sep 6, 2012, at 8:23 PM, Richard Wackerbarth <richard at NFSNet.org> wrote:
> 
>> Barry,
>> 
>> I have 10.7 and, today, I had the same problem.
>> 
>> Yesterday, I was able to set things up without any problems.
>> 
>> I think that the difference is that z3c.recipe.tag has bumped the version number to 0.5 but that the distribution is missing one of its files.
>> 
>> By manually downloading the package, I was able to fake the missing CHANGES.txt file and pre-install the module.
>> 
>> After that, the install worked just fine.
>> 
>> The Postorius install still needs some additional tweaking to make it work "out of the box", but it is progressing.
>> 
>> Richard
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 6, 2012, at 9:05 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sep 06, 2012, at 11:11 AM, G B wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I initially posted this to mailman-users, but it was suggested that this
>>>> would be a better list.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm installing Mailman for the first time, and chose to try the beta.  I'm
>>>> installing on a Mountain Lion Server, that was cleanly installed.  I've since
>>>> updated the OS to 10.8.1
>>>> 
>>>> I got as far as 'python bootstrap.py' and it failed immediately with the
>>>> following traceback:
>>> 
>>> I don't have OS X 10.8 yet, but I tried it on my 10.6.8 machine, using
>>> MacPorts' Python 2.7.
>>> 
>>> I was able to bootstrap, but bin/buildout failed downloading one of the zc
>>> recipes.  I don't have much in /opt/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages and I
>>> didn't spend much time debugging the problem.
>>> 
>>> However, I was able to create a virtualenv and do a `python setup.py install`
>>> into that virtualenv just fine.  I tested with `mailman info` but didn't try
>>> to much else.
>>> 
>>> I'm guessing it's something weird with 10.8's built-in Python 2.7.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> -Barry
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Mailman-Developers mailing list
>>> Mailman-Developers at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
>>> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>>> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
>>> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/richard%40nfsnet.org
>>> 
>>> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mailman-Developers mailing list
>> Mailman-Developers at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
>> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
>> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/g.c.b.at.work%40gmail.com
>> 
>> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/richard%40nfsnet.org
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9


From richard at NFSNet.org  Fri Sep  7 14:13:50 2012
From: richard at NFSNet.org (Richard Wackerbarth)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 07:13:50 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] 3.0.0b1 fails bootstrap.py on Mountain Lion
In-Reply-To: <20120906233832.056bb4bb@resist.wooz.org>
References: <14C37A74-1EC6-42DB-9500-73632A8361AB@gmail.com>
	<20120906220559.39efa679@resist.wooz.org>
	<AF1092D7-B042-47F9-815E-033C9557AD16@NFSNet.org>
	<20120906233832.056bb4bb@resist.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <D4BA5EFD-AAE4-4129-A69E-229E67D853CA@NFSNet.org>

In response to an inquiry concerning just what I did to get MM3 built yesterday:

First, I note that I have chosen to create two separate virtual environments for the installation. One is "postorius" which has the web interface, and the other is "mailman" into which I install just the mail-handling part.  I do this because these two components are logically separate and, by design, might be installed on separate host machines.

The mailman environment gets its sources from the lp:mailman repository. All of the other parts mentioned in the wiki installation guide go into the postorius environment.

The failure in the mailman installation (as of 6 Sep 2012) seems to result from a bad distribution package for z3c.recipe.tag, version 0.5.

After creating the mailman virtual environment, you can work around this by pre-installing this package before you run the (bootstrap/setup) for the mailman module.

Working in the virtual environment where you will install mailman:

First attempt to install z3c.recipe.tag
	$ pip install z3c.recipe.tag

This will fail with a message like: (Note that I redacted part of the path. You should use the full path as reported on your own installation)
	IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/ ... /z3c.recipe.tag/CHANGES.txt'

Create that file
	$ touch / ... /z3c.recipe.tag/CHANGES.txt

Now, try the installation again
	$ pip install z3c.recipe.tag

This should succeed and you should then be able to complete the buildout of mailman.

Richard "Wacky" Wackerbarth

On Sep 6, 2012, at 10:38 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

> On Sep 06, 2012, at 10:23 PM, Richard Wackerbarth wrote:
> 
>> I have 10.7 and, today, I had the same problem.
>> 
>> Yesterday, I was able to set things up without any problems.
>> 
>> I think that the difference is that z3c.recipe.tag has bumped the version
>> number to 0.5 but that the distribution is missing one of its files.
> 
> Yep.  I sent a message off to zope-dev (the maintainer address in the
> setup.py) and distutils-sig (where buildout folks hang out).  I couldn't find
> a bug tracker for the package.  Let's hope a new version gets uploaded soon.
> 
>> By manually downloading the package, I was able to fake the missing
>> CHANGES.txt file and pre-install the module.
> 
> Nice workaround, thanks!


From barry at list.org  Fri Sep  7 15:57:27 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 09:57:27 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Event notifications
In-Reply-To: <20120907112551.GA2217@gmail.com>
References: <CACeRBzmvzC-BN0wyHb8kgqY=dVAzQz54h+fJWSSHNQyuMe4QFg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120905213800.323df97e@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120907112551.GA2217@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120907095727.4a7a0288@resist.wooz.org>

On Sep 07, 2012, at 02:25 PM, George Chatzisofroniou wrote:

>[1]: https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1047286

I've added the mailman3 tag.

Cheers,
-Barry
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From barry at list.org  Sun Sep  9 01:28:36 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 19:28:36 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] RELEASED: GNU Mailman 3.0 beta 2
Message-ID: <20120908192836.5e54ab49@resist>

Hello friends of Mailman!

    Sometimes we freeze until the light comes
    Sometimes we're wrong and sometimes we're right

I'm happy to announce the second beta release of Mailman 3.0, code named
"Freeze".  I expect the code name to appropriately reflect the stability of
the database schema and REST API.  From here on out, there should be no more
major changes or new features, just bug fixes leading to the 3.0 final
release.

You can download GNU Mailman 3.0b2 from Launchpad or the Python Cheeseshop:

    https://launchpad.net/mailman
    http://pypi.python.org/pypi/mailman

The GNU Mailman documentation is available online at:

    http://packages.python.org/mailman/

Don't forget that alpha releases of Postorious, our new web ui are also
available:

    https://launchpad.net/postorius
    http://pypi.python.org/pypi/postorius

You can submit bug reports to GNU Mailman and Postorius at:

    https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman
    https://bugs.launchpad.net/postorius

GNU Mailman and Postorius are released under the GNU General Public License
version 3 or later.

Detailed changes in Mailman 3.0b2 are available here:

    http://tinyurl.com/93xlt5m

Here's a summary of the most user and developer visible change:

 * The link between members and mailing lists is now the list-id, not the
   mailing list's posting address.  This is reflected in changes to the REST
   API for members, and other internal APIs.

 * Many other database schema changes have been made, compatible with both the
   SQLite3 and PostgreSQL backends, and with fully tested automatic migration.

 * passlib is now used for password hashing instead of flufl.password.  There
   is a separate configuration file for controlling the hash used, with the
   default being sha512_crypt.

 * Internally, all datetimes are interpreted in UTC, but stored in naive
   format.

 * The `news` runner is now called the `nntp` runner.  Beta testers can safely
   remove $var_dir/queue/news.

 * Many internal events have been added and renamed.

 * Archiving policies are now controlled by a single enumeration.  This change
   is also reflected in the REST API.

 * Many configuration file changes have been made, including the addition of
   the new [antispam] section.

 * The usual slew of bug fixes have been applied.

Enjoy,
-Barry
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From tom.browder at gmail.com  Sat Sep  8 17:35:46 2012
From: tom.browder at gmail.com (Tom Browder)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 10:35:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "newlist" command and Mailman 3
Message-ID: <CAFMGiz_B8R2g8-WnJVP05=TfWoe_kcx4eH4FJPPfFMbP+0T-gQ@mail.gmail.com>

I am using Mailman 2 for two virtual hosts.  With help from Mark
Sapiro I was able to get my lists up and running as I wanted.

I use "newlist" in a Perl wrapper to programmatically start and delete
mailing lists, and I would like to be able to do more
programmatically, such as:

  add moderators
  set default variables
  etc.

Is there any work being done in that direction?

Best regards,

-Tom

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Sep  9 17:23:36 2012
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 08:23:36 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "newlist" command and Mailman 3
In-Reply-To: <CAFMGiz_B8R2g8-WnJVP05=TfWoe_kcx4eH4FJPPfFMbP+0T-gQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC19520120909082336039046db67aa@MSAPIRO>

Tom Browder wrote:
>
>I use "newlist" in a Perl wrapper to programmatically start and delete
>mailing lists, and I would like to be able to do more
>programmatically, such as:
>
>  add moderators
>  set default variables
>  etc.
>
>Is there any work being done in that direction?


The architecture of Mailman 3 is such that communication with the core
is via a RESTful HTTP interface. The web UI for example is  separate
from the core and communicates with the core via this interface.

Thus, you can build your own interface for communicating with the core
and exercising any core functionality without changing the core itself.

Clearly this RESTful HTTP interface must be secured in some way, and
normally this would be by only allowing connection from localhost, but
other methods could be used if you needed to communicate directly with
the core from a different server.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From tom.browder at gmail.com  Sun Sep  9 19:27:52 2012
From: tom.browder at gmail.com (Tom Browder)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:27:52 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "newlist" command and Mailman 3
In-Reply-To: <PC19520120909082336039046db67aa@MSAPIRO>
References: <CAFMGiz_B8R2g8-WnJVP05=TfWoe_kcx4eH4FJPPfFMbP+0T-gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC19520120909082336039046db67aa@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <CAFMGiz8GhnxS8qP1-jZew3S5z1=LUPV0VAwTaAzwGHu2Gq1oyg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> Tom Browder wrote:
>>
>>I use "newlist" in a Perl wrapper to programmatically start and delete
>>mailing lists, and I would like to be able to do more
>>programmatically, such as:
>>
>>  add moderators
>>  set default variables
>>  etc.
>>
>>Is there any work being done in that direction?
>
>
> The architecture of Mailman 3 is such that communication with the core
> is via a RESTful HTTP interface. The web UI for example is  separate
> from the core and communicates with the core via this interface.


> Thus, you can build your own interface for communicating with the core
> and exercising any core functionality without changing the core itself.

Okay, great!

> Clearly this RESTful HTTP interface must be secured in some way, and
> normally this would be by only allowing connection from localhost, but

Right, that's what I do currently.  I develop the script locally, send
the script to the remote, server, ssh there and run the script as
root.

Thanks, Mark.

Best,

-Tom

From barry at list.org  Mon Sep 10 20:04:59 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 14:04:59 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
Message-ID: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>

Hi Mailman developers,

I really want to get Mailman 3.0 final out in the next month or so, absolutely
definitely by the end of 2012.  Clearly, the core won't have everything that
everyone wants but I think it will have quite a bit, and be a useful release
for people to start using in production.

In some ways, I view Mailman 3.0 in the same light as Python 3.0.  It was
critical for that version to be released because the reality is that most
people won't test even a beta release.  However, once Python 3.1 was released,
we stopped recommending and maintaining Python 3.0 and just encouraged
everyone to upgrade.

My biggest priority is to ensure that Mailman 3.0 is usable even without a web
ui, and that major projects such as Postorius and HyperKitty can continue
making good progress toward their own releases with 3.0.

To make it easier for me to understand your priorities and needs, I request
that anything you think is missing in Mailman 3 today be added as a bug in our
tracker: <http://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman>.  You must add the 'mailman3' tag
to the bug and bump the importance up to Critical.  In a week or so, I'll
start triaging the bugs and make my own assessments, and then anything marked
critical will be fixed before the final release.  There will be no High bugs,
and everything else will be marked Low and postponed to Mailman 3.1.

In the bug comments, please add justifications or other information you think
will be useful to me while doing a final triage.  Of course, priority always
goes to those bugs that have branches and merge proposals attached to them
(i.e. contributions welcome!).

Cheers,
-Barry
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From terri at zone12.com  Mon Sep 10 20:25:48 2012
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 12:25:48 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
In-Reply-To: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
References: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <504E30AC.9030206@zone12.com>

Oh, hey, this reminds me...

As I've mentioned before, I'm interested in seeing dynamic sublists 
replace topics in Mailman 3.0.  We've got a student working on the port, 
but honestly he's been dragging his heels and I'm starting to doubt it's 
going to be done by the end of September.

What do you think the best timing for new feature-ish things?  I'm 
guessing post-release makes more sense, but if there's a window of 
pre-release time that would make sense for this I might be able to help 
with the push and make sure we get in under the wire. Deadlines are 
always good motivation. ;)

  Terri

On 12-09-10 12:04 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> Hi Mailman developers,
>
> I really want to get Mailman 3.0 final out in the next month or so, absolutely
> definitely by the end of 2012.  Clearly, the core won't have everything that
> everyone wants but I think it will have quite a bit, and be a useful release
> for people to start using in production.
>
> In some ways, I view Mailman 3.0 in the same light as Python 3.0.  It was
> critical for that version to be released because the reality is that most
> people won't test even a beta release.  However, once Python 3.1 was released,
> we stopped recommending and maintaining Python 3.0 and just encouraged
> everyone to upgrade.
>
> My biggest priority is to ensure that Mailman 3.0 is usable even without a web
> ui, and that major projects such as Postorius and HyperKitty can continue
> making good progress toward their own releases with 3.0.
>
> To make it easier for me to understand your priorities and needs, I request
> that anything you think is missing in Mailman 3 today be added as a bug in our
> tracker: <http://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman>.  You must add the 'mailman3' tag
> to the bug and bump the importance up to Critical.  In a week or so, I'll
> start triaging the bugs and make my own assessments, and then anything marked
> critical will be fixed before the final release.  There will be no High bugs,
> and everything else will be marked Low and postponed to Mailman 3.1.
>
> In the bug comments, please add justifications or other information you think
> will be useful to me while doing a final triage.  Of course, priority always
> goes to those bugs that have branches and merge proposals attached to them
> (i.e. contributions welcome!).
>
> Cheers,
> -Barry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/terri%40zone12.com
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9


From barry at list.org  Mon Sep 10 20:37:14 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 14:37:14 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
In-Reply-To: <504E30AC.9030206@zone12.com>
References: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
	<504E30AC.9030206@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <20120910143714.0f3167b4@resist.wooz.org>

On Sep 10, 2012, at 12:25 PM, Terri Oda wrote:

>As I've mentioned before, I'm interested in seeing dynamic sublists replace
>topics in Mailman 3.0.  We've got a student working on the port, but honestly
>he's been dragging his heels and I'm starting to doubt it's going to be done
>by the end of September.
>
>What do you think the best timing for new feature-ish things?  I'm guessing
>post-release makes more sense, but if there's a window of pre-release time
>that would make sense for this I might be able to help with the push and make
>sure we get in under the wire. Deadlines are always good motivation. ;)

I love this feature and would like to see it in Mailman at some point, but I
think it's too late for 3.0.  The ideal approach would be to continue to work
on a branch of lp:mailman and even do a merge proposal of that when and if
it's ready.

At some point close to 3.0 final, I'll create a maintenance branch
(e.g. lp:mailman/3.0) and trunk will then be assigned to 3.1.  I'll then
fiddle the Launchpad metadata to indicate the 3.1 is the focus of development,
and we'll just do bug fixes against 3.0.

Cheers,
-Barry

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From franck at peachymango.org  Wed Sep 12 00:38:06 2012
From: franck at peachymango.org (Franck Martin)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:38:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
In-Reply-To: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <144358662.80478.1347403086222.JavaMail.root@peachymango.org>

Unfortunately, I did not have time to look at porting the optional authorship settings from the branch I did on mailman 2.1 to 3.0. I suppose this is too late to make the 3.0 deadline, but from what I saw of the 3.0 code, this does not seem a complicated change.

How can I register a bug, so that this change can be considered for 3.1?

https://code.launchpad.net/~mlm-author/mailman/2.1-author

Thanks.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Warsaw" <barry at list.org>
To: mailman-developers at python.org
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 11:04:59 AM
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final

Hi Mailman developers,

I really want to get Mailman 3.0 final out in the next month or so, absolutely
definitely by the end of 2012.  Clearly, the core won't have everything that
everyone wants but I think it will have quite a bit, and be a useful release
for people to start using in production.

In some ways, I view Mailman 3.0 in the same light as Python 3.0.  It was
critical for that version to be released because the reality is that most
people won't test even a beta release.  However, once Python 3.1 was released,
we stopped recommending and maintaining Python 3.0 and just encouraged
everyone to upgrade.

My biggest priority is to ensure that Mailman 3.0 is usable even without a web
ui, and that major projects such as Postorius and HyperKitty can continue
making good progress toward their own releases with 3.0.

To make it easier for me to understand your priorities and needs, I request
that anything you think is missing in Mailman 3 today be added as a bug in our
tracker: <http://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman>.  You must add the 'mailman3' tag
to the bug and bump the importance up to Critical.  In a week or so, I'll
start triaging the bugs and make my own assessments, and then anything marked
critical will be fixed before the final release.  There will be no High bugs,
and everything else will be marked Low and postponed to Mailman 3.1.

In the bug comments, please add justifications or other information you think
will be useful to me while doing a final triage.  Of course, priority always
goes to those bugs that have branches and merge proposals attached to them
(i.e. contributions welcome!).

Cheers,
-Barry

From aurelien at bompard.org  Thu Sep 13 09:19:55 2012
From: aurelien at bompard.org (Aurelien Bompard)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 09:19:55 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding keys in the configuration file
Message-ID: <CAHmoxtWCCWGBM=R3Oxpss4+hk4z3onWvz=iGwAeoRgRx2sRB0g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi people,

I'm working on HyperKitty, and I've understood that I need to add this
section to mailman.cfg to enable it :

  [archiver.hyperkitty]
  class: hyperkitty.lib.archiver.Archiver
  enable: yes
  base_url: http://hyperkitty.example.com

That works well. However, I need another key to specify the location
to HK's configuration file (Django's settings.py). I've tried simply
adding the key, but it's not picked up by the configuration class,
probably because of the schema validation.
Is there a way I could add this configuration key ? Maybe via another
section, or another file ?

Thanks !

Aur?lien

From richard at NFSNet.org  Thu Sep 13 14:16:38 2012
From: richard at NFSNet.org (Richard Wackerbarth)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:16:38 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding keys in the configuration file
In-Reply-To: <CAHmoxtWCCWGBM=R3Oxpss4+hk4z3onWvz=iGwAeoRgRx2sRB0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHmoxtWCCWGBM=R3Oxpss4+hk4z3onWvz=iGwAeoRgRx2sRB0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7A420BB1-9F04-4813-ABF4-2FD3BDE3F2DD@NFSNet.org>

Why do you think that the configuration of HK should be a part of the MM core?
Like the Postorius configuration UI, HK is supposed to be a separable part of the overall system which is possibly running on an entirely separate host machine.
As such, its daemon would be configured and operated as a distinct service. The linkage between the two systems should be in the form of a single reference.

On Sep 13, 2012, at 2:19 AM, Aurelien Bompard wrote:

> Hi people,
> 
> I'm working on HyperKitty, and I've understood that I need to add this
> section to mailman.cfg to enable it :
> 
>  [archiver.hyperkitty]
>  class: hyperkitty.lib.archiver.Archiver
>  enable: yes
>  base_url: http://hyperkitty.example.com
> 
> That works well. However, I need another key to specify the location
> to HK's configuration file (Django's settings.py). I've tried simply
> adding the key, but it's not picked up by the configuration class,
> probably because of the schema validation.
> Is there a way I could add this configuration key ? Maybe via another
> section, or another file ?
> 
> Thanks !
> 
> Aur?lien
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/richard%40nfsnet.org
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9


From aurelien at bompard.org  Thu Sep 13 16:07:33 2012
From: aurelien at bompard.org (Aurelien Bompard)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 16:07:33 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding keys in the configuration file
In-Reply-To: <7A420BB1-9F04-4813-ABF4-2FD3BDE3F2DD@NFSNet.org>
References: <CAHmoxtWCCWGBM=R3Oxpss4+hk4z3onWvz=iGwAeoRgRx2sRB0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A420BB1-9F04-4813-ABF4-2FD3BDE3F2DD@NFSNet.org>
Message-ID: <CAHmoxtUR3k7baYkaJ0Qb4GPXSZMwLVLeqw_AHjKL4fbyxL3fpQ@mail.gmail.com>

> Why do you think that the configuration of HK should be a part of the MM core?

I didn't intend to put all of HK's config in mailman.cfg of course.
But I'm supposed to reference a class in the archiver.hyperkitty
section, which will be imported on startup, so it must be on the same
host.
Since there are already archiver-specific configuration keys there,
like a command to run or an email address to forward to, I supposed it
would be OK to add a "conffile" key that I could use.

So what's the best way ? Add a "conf_file" key to schema.cfg ?
Something else, maybe more extendable ?

Thanks.
Aur?lien

From aurelien at bompard.org  Thu Sep 13 16:53:37 2012
From: aurelien at bompard.org (Aurelien Bompard)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 16:53:37 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding keys in the configuration file
In-Reply-To: <E75BBF81-09E7-4CFF-93C8-69F2BD2264EF@nfsnet.org>
References: <CAHmoxtWCCWGBM=R3Oxpss4+hk4z3onWvz=iGwAeoRgRx2sRB0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A420BB1-9F04-4813-ABF4-2FD3BDE3F2DD@NFSNet.org>
	<CAHmoxtWr2iduuCSWTn4UGxWVD_Vv2cHF4w72N1zf=drutrDbbQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<E75BBF81-09E7-4CFF-93C8-69F2BD2264EF@nfsnet.org>
Message-ID: <CAHmoxtUy3xttfKTLQ6W2GLabCUdVumQ_pthrkJfAKQioQeKUqQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry I messed up with a list-reply, so you people missed Richard's reply.

> What concerns me is that MM core should not depend on Django in order to run.
> The Archive interface needs to accept the message and place it in the store.

MM won't depend on Django, only if the HK section in mailman.cfg is enabled.
I can't just send the message to the store however, since the
IArchiver interface also has methods to get the list and message's
final archive URL, and that's dependent on the frontend. The store
does not know how the frontend is installed (at the root URL, on
/hyperkitty, on /archives, etc.).
Those methods are run before the message is stored in order for their
result to be added to the message headers, so I can't even get it from
the archive_message call.

Aur?lien

From richard at NFSNet.org  Thu Sep 13 17:37:17 2012
From: richard at NFSNet.org (Richard Wackerbarth)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 10:37:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding keys in the configuration file
In-Reply-To: <CAHmoxtUy3xttfKTLQ6W2GLabCUdVumQ_pthrkJfAKQioQeKUqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHmoxtWCCWGBM=R3Oxpss4+hk4z3onWvz=iGwAeoRgRx2sRB0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A420BB1-9F04-4813-ABF4-2FD3BDE3F2DD@NFSNet.org>
	<CAHmoxtWr2iduuCSWTn4UGxWVD_Vv2cHF4w72N1zf=drutrDbbQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<E75BBF81-09E7-4CFF-93C8-69F2BD2264EF@nfsnet.org>
	<CAHmoxtUy3xttfKTLQ6W2GLabCUdVumQ_pthrkJfAKQioQeKUqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <025EF4E7-754C-4F7A-9D6B-3F647421E294@NFSNet.org>

You had mentioned a reference to the Django settings for HK.
Even if HK is enabled, django should not get imported into the MM space.

The proper way to handle the issue of URLs would be to have the MM core query the UI for them.
However, I have yet to convince Barry that the present model (where, at present, MM is the only part allowed to be authoritative over ANY information that it uses) is inappropriate.
So, for the present, we need to have a proxy for the UI and a section of the configuration that specifies the values for the parameters which it supplies.

IMHO, we should actually treat it as multiple proxies so that we can handle the more generic configuration in a consistent manner.

On Sep 13, 2012, at 9:53 AM, Aurelien Bompard wrote:

> Sorry I messed up with a list-reply, so you people missed Richard's reply.
> 
>> What concerns me is that MM core should not depend on Django in order to run.
>> The Archive interface needs to accept the message and place it in the store.
> 
> MM won't depend on Django, only if the HK section in mailman.cfg is enabled.
> I can't just send the message to the store however, since the
> IArchiver interface also has methods to get the list and message's
> final archive URL, and that's dependent on the frontend. The store
> does not know how the frontend is installed (at the root URL, on
> /hyperkitty, on /archives, etc.).
> Those methods are run before the message is stored in order for their
> result to be added to the message headers, so I can't even get it from
> the archive_message call.
> 
> Aur?lien


From aurelien at bompard.org  Thu Sep 13 18:13:10 2012
From: aurelien at bompard.org (Aurelien Bompard)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 18:13:10 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding keys in the configuration file
In-Reply-To: <025EF4E7-754C-4F7A-9D6B-3F647421E294@NFSNet.org>
References: <CAHmoxtWCCWGBM=R3Oxpss4+hk4z3onWvz=iGwAeoRgRx2sRB0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A420BB1-9F04-4813-ABF4-2FD3BDE3F2DD@NFSNet.org>
	<CAHmoxtWr2iduuCSWTn4UGxWVD_Vv2cHF4w72N1zf=drutrDbbQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<E75BBF81-09E7-4CFF-93C8-69F2BD2264EF@nfsnet.org>
	<CAHmoxtUy3xttfKTLQ6W2GLabCUdVumQ_pthrkJfAKQioQeKUqQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<025EF4E7-754C-4F7A-9D6B-3F647421E294@NFSNet.org>
Message-ID: <CAHmoxtWB+m0GARjkvrZtVqwJGLU78hqMz0M-hNSZszAW-KO2Aw@mail.gmail.com>

> You had mentioned a reference to the Django settings for HK.

Yes, my idea was to have something like that in the mailman.cfg file :

  [archiver.hyperkitty]
  enabled: yes
  class: hyperkitty.archiver.Archiver
  base_url: http://archives.example.com
  conf_file: /path/to/django/app/settings.py

Only the conf_file key is invalid at the moment. It references the
path to a Django settings file, but that's all.
The Archiver class will then use this value to import the settings and
go on with its job. That's the only place where there will be an
import from the django namespace.

> Even if HK is enabled, django should not get imported into the MM space.

I'm not sure I understand that. You mean in the same process memory ?
Then I'm limited to some kind of client-server architecture, which I
fear will have performance issues since we're passing every messages
around. Or am I missing something ?

> The proper way to handle the issue of URLs would be to have the MM core query the UI for them.

Well, I thought that's what it did currently. It imports a HK-specific
class, which loads Django's settings to build the proper URL fragment
when the appropriate method is called. What kind of query do you mean
?

> However, I have yet to convince Barry that the present model (where, at present, MM is the only part allowed to be authoritative over ANY information that it uses) is inappropriate.
> So, for the present, we need to have a proxy for the UI and a section of the configuration that specifies the values for the parameters which it supplies.
> IMHO, we should actually treat it as multiple proxies so that we can handle the more generic configuration in a consistent manner.

I'm kinda lost here. I sort of understand that you're in favor of
making the configuration file more extendable to fit the extension's
needs, which would solve my problem. Mailman can't know in advance
what kind of configuration values an extension needs, so in my opinion
the conf file should either allow extensions to put arbitrary keys
there (in sub-sub-sections for example), or let the admin specify the
path to another configuration file, which would be extension-specific.

Anything I'm missing ? Barry, any comments ?

Thanks for your input !

Aur?lien

From barry at list.org  Thu Sep 13 21:18:38 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 15:18:38 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding keys in the configuration file
In-Reply-To: <CAHmoxtUy3xttfKTLQ6W2GLabCUdVumQ_pthrkJfAKQioQeKUqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHmoxtWCCWGBM=R3Oxpss4+hk4z3onWvz=iGwAeoRgRx2sRB0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A420BB1-9F04-4813-ABF4-2FD3BDE3F2DD@NFSNet.org>
	<CAHmoxtWr2iduuCSWTn4UGxWVD_Vv2cHF4w72N1zf=drutrDbbQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<E75BBF81-09E7-4CFF-93C8-69F2BD2264EF@nfsnet.org>
	<CAHmoxtUy3xttfKTLQ6W2GLabCUdVumQ_pthrkJfAKQioQeKUqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120913151838.2d6b2e43@resist.wooz.org>

On Sep 13, 2012, at 04:53 PM, Aurelien Bompard wrote:

>MM won't depend on Django, only if the HK section in mailman.cfg is enabled.
>I can't just send the message to the store however, since the IArchiver
>interface also has methods to get the list and message's final archive URL,
>and that's dependent on the frontend. The store does not know how the
>frontend is installed (at the root URL, on /hyperkitty, on /archives, etc.).
>Those methods are run before the message is stored in order for their result
>to be added to the message headers, so I can't even get it from the
>archive_message call.

The configuration options for IArchiver.list_url() and IArchive.permalink()
are fairly rough, mostly because we haven't had many examples we can
generalize from.

If you look at the way mhonarc.py is implemented, it expects that the base_url
specified in the config file would have up to three substitution variables:
listname, hostname, and fqdn_listname.  These get filled in with the
appropriate information from the mailing list.  It doesn't really know
anything about private archives, and can't currently make that distinction.

Further, the mhonarc implementation expects that you should be able to append
the X-Message-ID-Hash to the base_url to get the final url that the message
will be archived at.

The HyperKitty IArchiver implementation doesn't live in the trunk yet, though
I think it would be fine if it did.  But the question is, how would the core
know what the base url for the archive is, and how would it calculate the url
for a specific message in the archive.  Note that ideally, it would not have
to contact the archiver to figure out this latter; that's what the whole idea
between our proposed extension to RFC 5064 is all about:

http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Stable+URLs

I can't answer this question for HyperKitty because I haven't looked at it
closely enough, but I can think of a few ways this might be implemented.

If the base url is static, perhaps with some placeholders for list-specific
information, then the same approach used for mhonarc could be used for
hyperkitty.

If the base url for a specific list were available in hyperkitty, and say, the
core could issue an HTTP call (e.g. REST+JSON) to get it, then we could
implement this in much the same way that notification templates are
implemented (i.e. we do the query and cache the results for a little while).
You wouldn't want to do this for every message being archived, because I think
it would be too slow, but if you could make archive_message() and permalink()
agree to their answers, then there's no technical reason why you couldn't
implement it that way.  In that case, [archiver.hyperkitty]base_url might be a
bit of a misnomer, but so be it.

Ultimately, the HyperKitty implementation of IArchiver could do whatever is
necessary to provide accurate answers to that interface's methods.

-Barry

From barry at list.org  Thu Sep 13 21:29:16 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 15:29:16 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding keys in the configuration file
In-Reply-To: <025EF4E7-754C-4F7A-9D6B-3F647421E294@NFSNet.org>
References: <CAHmoxtWCCWGBM=R3Oxpss4+hk4z3onWvz=iGwAeoRgRx2sRB0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A420BB1-9F04-4813-ABF4-2FD3BDE3F2DD@NFSNet.org>
	<CAHmoxtWr2iduuCSWTn4UGxWVD_Vv2cHF4w72N1zf=drutrDbbQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<E75BBF81-09E7-4CFF-93C8-69F2BD2264EF@nfsnet.org>
	<CAHmoxtUy3xttfKTLQ6W2GLabCUdVumQ_pthrkJfAKQioQeKUqQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<025EF4E7-754C-4F7A-9D6B-3F647421E294@NFSNet.org>
Message-ID: <20120913152916.7d554cc2@resist.wooz.org>

On Sep 13, 2012, at 10:37 AM, Richard Wackerbarth wrote:

>The proper way to handle the issue of URLs would be to have the MM core query
>the UI for them.  However, I have yet to convince Barry that the present
>model (where, at present, MM is the only part allowed to be authoritative
>over ANY information that it uses) is inappropriate.  So, for the present, we
>need to have a proxy for the UI and a section of the configuration that
>specifies the values for the parameters which it supplies.

I wouldn't necessarily categorize that way, because in some cases, the core
already is not the authoritative source of information.

Take welcome messages for example.  Unlike in MM2, MM3 does not store the
welcome message template in its database.  The MM2 limitation to this approach
was that we could only support welcome messages in one language.

Now, what MM3 does is store a welcome_message_uri which may contain
placeholders for the fqdn_listname, and a language code.  So when the
test at example.com list needs to send a welcome message in fr, it essentially
does this:

* expand the list's welcome_message_uri by interpolation of $listname and
  $language placeholders

* issue an HTTP GET on the resulting url

* cache the results for some period of time

* use the resulting text as the welcome message template, into which it
  interpolates a bunch of other placeholders, both list specific and user
  specific.

I think this is a powerful approach that could be extended to other pieces of
information stored in external systems.  So essentially, MM3 is a consumer of
other web resources for which the authoritative source can be delegated.  This
is only moderately generalized in the core right now, but I see no reason why
this approach can't be used in more places.  Certainly a HyperKitty IArchiver
implementation could easily do something like this today.

Cheers,
-Barry

From barry at list.org  Thu Sep 13 21:37:05 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 15:37:05 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding keys in the configuration file
In-Reply-To: <CAHmoxtWB+m0GARjkvrZtVqwJGLU78hqMz0M-hNSZszAW-KO2Aw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHmoxtWCCWGBM=R3Oxpss4+hk4z3onWvz=iGwAeoRgRx2sRB0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A420BB1-9F04-4813-ABF4-2FD3BDE3F2DD@NFSNet.org>
	<CAHmoxtWr2iduuCSWTn4UGxWVD_Vv2cHF4w72N1zf=drutrDbbQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<E75BBF81-09E7-4CFF-93C8-69F2BD2264EF@nfsnet.org>
	<CAHmoxtUy3xttfKTLQ6W2GLabCUdVumQ_pthrkJfAKQioQeKUqQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<025EF4E7-754C-4F7A-9D6B-3F647421E294@NFSNet.org>
	<CAHmoxtWB+m0GARjkvrZtVqwJGLU78hqMz0M-hNSZszAW-KO2Aw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120913153705.688e6539@resist.wooz.org>

On Sep 13, 2012, at 06:13 PM, Aurelien Bompard wrote:

>Yes, my idea was to have something like that in the mailman.cfg file :
>
>  [archiver.hyperkitty]
>  enabled: yes
>  class: hyperkitty.archiver.Archiver
>  base_url: http://archives.example.com
>  conf_file: /path/to/django/app/settings.py
>
>Only the conf_file key is invalid at the moment. It references the
>path to a Django settings file, but that's all.
>The Archiver class will then use this value to import the settings and
>go on with its job. That's the only place where there will be an
>import from the django namespace.

You could do it this way, but it would require HyperKitty to be colocated on
the same machine as the core, and that its settings.py file be importable by
the core.

Better IMHO would be for the core to issue an HTTP/REST+JSON style GET call on
some configurable URL to ask the Django server for the information.  Then
HyperKitty could reside anywhere.

>> Even if HK is enabled, django should not get imported into the MM space.
>
>I'm not sure I understand that. You mean in the same process memory ?
>Then I'm limited to some kind of client-server architecture, which I
>fear will have performance issues since we're passing every messages
>around. Or am I missing something ?

If you did it as a REST response, you'd want the HyperKitty IArchiver
implementation to cache the result for a while.  More savings would be
achieved if MM3 could calculate the archive url from a base url, a la our
extension to RFC 5064 I mentioned previously.

>I'm kinda lost here. I sort of understand that you're in favor of
>making the configuration file more extendable to fit the extension's
>needs, which would solve my problem. Mailman can't know in advance
>what kind of configuration values an extension needs, so in my opinion
>the conf file should either allow extensions to put arbitrary keys
>there (in sub-sub-sections for example), or let the admin specify the
>path to another configuration file, which would be extension-specific.

We do something like this already to implement password hashing via the third
party passlib package.  If you look at the [passwords]path configuration
variable, it names a url to an external passlib.cfg configuration file.  This
can use standard file: or http: urls, or as is shown in the default, a special
python: url scheme.  The semantics of python: url schemes is that the value
names a file in Python dotted-path name syntax for a file locatable on
sys.path (it doesn't need to be importable, but the parent must be).

I can certainly see something like this work for archiver configuration.

Cheers,
-Barry

From barry at list.org  Thu Sep 13 21:48:34 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 15:48:34 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding keys in the configuration file
In-Reply-To: <CAHmoxtUR3k7baYkaJ0Qb4GPXSZMwLVLeqw_AHjKL4fbyxL3fpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHmoxtWCCWGBM=R3Oxpss4+hk4z3onWvz=iGwAeoRgRx2sRB0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A420BB1-9F04-4813-ABF4-2FD3BDE3F2DD@NFSNet.org>
	<CAHmoxtUR3k7baYkaJ0Qb4GPXSZMwLVLeqw_AHjKL4fbyxL3fpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120913154834.3e9a718b@resist.wooz.org>

On Sep 13, 2012, at 04:07 PM, Aurelien Bompard wrote:

>I didn't intend to put all of HK's config in mailman.cfg of course.  But I'm
>supposed to reference a class in the archiver.hyperkitty section, which will
>be imported on startup, so it must be on the same host.  Since there are
>already archiver-specific configuration keys there, like a command to run or
>an email address to forward to, I supposed it would be OK to add a "conffile"
>key that I could use.

Remember too that the HyperKitty implementation of IArchiver can kind of do
whatever it wants to do.

It is a limitation of lazr.config that you can't set arbitrary variables in
config file sections, i.e. ones that are not defined in the schema.cfg.
That's unfortunate and maybe something we'll have to fix, workaround, or find
a substitute for lazr.config (which we may have to do anyway if/when MM3 moves
to Python 3).

>So what's the best way ? Add a "conf_file" key to schema.cfg ?
>Something else, maybe more extendable ?

If you wanted to implement this without code changes to the core, I'd reuse
the `base_url` variable, and inside the HyperKitty IArchiver implementation,
I'd interpret that as the url to a configuration file.  Kind of icky I know,
but it's probably the best you can do without changing schema.cfg.

OTOH, if you wanted to propose a patch/branch to MM3, then I'd probably
suggest a more general approach of adding a `configure` variable to
[archiver.master] and giving this semantics similar to [passwords]path as
described previously.

This [archiver.*]configure would name the path to a ini style file that
doesn't have the lazr.config schema limitation.  Then inside there, you could
add anything that HyperKitty would need.

This would be nice because we could probably even remove recipient and command
from the general [archiver.master] section, and move them to the specific
mail-archive.com and mhonarc .ini files (which would have to be added, but
that's easy).

Cheers,
-Barry

From aurelien at bompard.org  Thu Sep 13 23:42:02 2012
From: aurelien at bompard.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aur=E9lien_Bompard?=)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 23:42:02 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding keys in the configuration file
In-Reply-To: <20120913154834.3e9a718b@resist.wooz.org>
References: <CAHmoxtWCCWGBM=R3Oxpss4+hk4z3onWvz=iGwAeoRgRx2sRB0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A420BB1-9F04-4813-ABF4-2FD3BDE3F2DD@NFSNet.org>
	<CAHmoxtUR3k7baYkaJ0Qb4GPXSZMwLVLeqw_AHjKL4fbyxL3fpQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120913154834.3e9a718b@resist.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <5052532A.5000001@bompard.org>

This is very interesting, thanks a lot for your suggestions.

> If the base url is static, perhaps with some placeholders for list-specific
> information, then the same approach used for mhonarc could be used for
> hyperkitty.

That would work nicely for list_url() and permalink() indeed, even if it
means that the URL mappings must be kept in sync.
However, I need other pieces of information from the settings.py file,
for example the store's database URL.

> You could do it this way, but it would require HyperKitty to be colocated on
> the same machine as the core, and that its settings.py file be importable by
> the core.
> Better IMHO would be for the core to issue an HTTP/REST+JSON style GET call on
> some configurable URL to ask the Django server for the information.  Then
> HyperKitty could reside anywhere.

True, but I still need to send the message to the store somehow.
However, this method allows a decoupling between the web archive
configuration and the storage action, which is interesting.

> OTOH, if you wanted to propose a patch/branch to MM3, then I'd probably
> suggest a more general approach of adding a `configure` variable to
> [archiver.master] and giving this semantics similar to [passwords]path as
> described previously.
> This [archiver.*]configure would name the path to a ini style file that
> doesn't have the lazr.config schema limitation.  Then inside there, you could
> add anything that HyperKitty would need.
> This would be nice because we could probably even remove recipient and command
> from the general [archiver.master] section, and move them to the specific
> mail-archive.com and mhonarc .ini files (which would have to be added, but
> that's easy).

This looks like an excellent solution to me, I'll go ahead and do that.
Afterwards I'll look into making it possible to have HK on a separate
host (and maybe only keep the storing library with Mailman).

Thanks a lot for your ideas !

Aur?lien
-- 
http://aurelien.bompard.org    ~~~~~~    jabber: aurelien at bompard.org
This mail is displayed with recycled electrons

From barry at list.org  Fri Sep 14 01:44:05 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 19:44:05 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding keys in the configuration file
In-Reply-To: <5052532A.5000001@bompard.org>
References: <CAHmoxtWCCWGBM=R3Oxpss4+hk4z3onWvz=iGwAeoRgRx2sRB0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A420BB1-9F04-4813-ABF4-2FD3BDE3F2DD@NFSNet.org>
	<CAHmoxtUR3k7baYkaJ0Qb4GPXSZMwLVLeqw_AHjKL4fbyxL3fpQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120913154834.3e9a718b@resist.wooz.org>
	<5052532A.5000001@bompard.org>
Message-ID: <20120913194405.18616048@resist.wooz.org>

On Sep 13, 2012, at 11:42 PM, Aur?lien Bompard wrote:

>True, but I still need to send the message to the store somehow.

Yeah, sorry I'm not familiar enough with HyperKitty to know how you get
messages *into* it. ;)

Cheers,
-Barry

From aurelien at bompard.org  Fri Sep 14 12:03:45 2012
From: aurelien at bompard.org (Aurelien Bompard)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 12:03:45 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding keys in the configuration file
In-Reply-To: <20120913194405.18616048@resist.wooz.org>
References: <CAHmoxtWCCWGBM=R3Oxpss4+hk4z3onWvz=iGwAeoRgRx2sRB0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A420BB1-9F04-4813-ABF4-2FD3BDE3F2DD@NFSNet.org>
	<CAHmoxtUR3k7baYkaJ0Qb4GPXSZMwLVLeqw_AHjKL4fbyxL3fpQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120913154834.3e9a718b@resist.wooz.org>
	<5052532A.5000001@bompard.org>
	<20120913194405.18616048@resist.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <CAHmoxtU4rn2SXxQaBeoqjUsfMsG2P_D3uz5CwmNSJFsSa=uBMg@mail.gmail.com>

> Yeah, sorry I'm not familiar enough with HyperKitty to know how you get
> messages *into* it. ;)

Don't be sorry for not knowing *everything* ;-)

Aur?lien

From barry at list.org  Sat Sep 15 00:50:43 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 18:50:43 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
In-Reply-To: <144358662.80478.1347403086222.JavaMail.root@peachymango.org>
References: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
	<144358662.80478.1347403086222.JavaMail.root@peachymango.org>
Message-ID: <20120914185043.5d9ae562@resist.wooz.org>

On Sep 11, 2012, at 05:38 PM, Franck Martin wrote:

>Unfortunately, I did not have time to look at porting the optional authorship settings from the branch I did on mailman 2.1 to 3.0. I suppose this is too late to make the 3.0 deadline, but from what I saw of the 3.0 code, this does not seem a complicated change.
>
>How can I register a bug, so that this change can be considered for 3.1?
>
>https://code.launchpad.net/~mlm-author/mailman/2.1-author

For now, file the bug as normal, but add the 'mailman3' tag.  At some point
when I create the 3.1 series and start targeting bugs to that series, I will
go through all the mailman3 tagged bugs and evaluate them as either new
features (i.e. 3.1) or bug fixes (i.e. for 3.0.x).

Also, if you do port the code to lp:mailman, that would be great.  You can
push the branch and do a merge proposal against lp:mailman, which will always
be the currently in-development branch.  I'll create a maintenance branch for
3.0.x at some point.

Cheers,
-Barryu

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From tom.browder at gmail.com  Sat Sep 15 13:48:49 2012
From: tom.browder at gmail.com (Tom Browder)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 06:48:49 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "newlist" command and Mailman 3
In-Reply-To: <CAFMGiz8GhnxS8qP1-jZew3S5z1=LUPV0VAwTaAzwGHu2Gq1oyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFMGiz_B8R2g8-WnJVP05=TfWoe_kcx4eH4FJPPfFMbP+0T-gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC19520120909082336039046db67aa@MSAPIRO>
	<CAFMGiz8GhnxS8qP1-jZew3S5z1=LUPV0VAwTaAzwGHu2Gq1oyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFMGiz_jX4gV2DjrA0yrz7FR-GV-wL1xke1qCyBH+WTu1nVxwg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 12:27 PM, Tom Browder <tom.browder at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>> Tom Browder wrote:
>>>
>>>I use "newlist" in a Perl wrapper to programmatically start and delete
>>>mailing lists, and I would like to be able to do more
>>>programmatically, such as:
...
>> The architecture of Mailman 3 is such that communication with the core
>> is via a RESTful HTTP interface. The web UI for example is  separate
>> from the core and communicates with the core via this interface.

Okay, I see most of the interface in the code here:

  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/3.0/files/head:/src/mailman/rest/docs/

and I think I see how to hook into it and use with Perl LWP.

Is there any output format available other than json?

Best,

-Tom

From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Sun Sep 16 14:41:56 2012
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 13:41:56 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
In-Reply-To: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
References: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <20120916124156.GW5644@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 02:04:59PM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> My biggest priority is to ensure that Mailman 3.0 is usable even without a web
> ui, and that major projects such as Postorius and HyperKitty can continue
> making good progress toward their own releases with 3.0.

Part of the attraction in using Mailman 2, was that, for the majority
of tasks end-users want to do, they can do it via the web interface;
certainly an advantage over those "you have to do everything by email,
in the proscribed manner, to the right address" 'alternatives' (I say
'alternatives' as I don't think they're fit for non-geeks (and even
some struggle with those).

I would not roll-out Mailman 3 if there were not an end-users' web
interface, at the very least for subscription management/alterations.


-- 
"Have you always been revolutionary socialists?"
"No, we vote Conservative."
    (Simon Hoggart, interviewing a middle-class
    couple at a reading of Tony Benn's speeches)

From barry at list.org  Mon Sep 17 16:50:24 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:50:24 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
In-Reply-To: <20120916124156.GW5644@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
References: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120916124156.GW5644@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20120917105024.6a07c350@resist.wooz.org>

On Sep 16, 2012, at 01:41 PM, Adam McGreggor wrote:

>Part of the attraction in using Mailman 2, was that, for the majority
>of tasks end-users want to do, they can do it via the web interface;
>certainly an advantage over those "you have to do everything by email,
>in the proscribed manner, to the right address" 'alternatives' (I say
>'alternatives' as I don't think they're fit for non-geeks (and even
>some struggle with those).
>
>I would not roll-out Mailman 3 if there were not an end-users' web
>interface, at the very least for subscription management/alterations.

Maybe now that the core is pretty close to what it will be like when released,
we can get more volunteers to help test Postorius, and perhaps contribute to
it?  It would be cool if we could do a simultaneous release, but OTOH, the
architecture of MM3 expressly encourages separation of the web ui from the
engine.

I do think that if we release them separately, we'll have to be very clear
about setting expectations.

-Barry

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From barry at list.org  Mon Sep 17 16:55:29 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:55:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "newlist" command and Mailman 3
In-Reply-To: <CAFMGiz_jX4gV2DjrA0yrz7FR-GV-wL1xke1qCyBH+WTu1nVxwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFMGiz_B8R2g8-WnJVP05=TfWoe_kcx4eH4FJPPfFMbP+0T-gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC19520120909082336039046db67aa@MSAPIRO>
	<CAFMGiz8GhnxS8qP1-jZew3S5z1=LUPV0VAwTaAzwGHu2Gq1oyg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFMGiz_jX4gV2DjrA0yrz7FR-GV-wL1xke1qCyBH+WTu1nVxwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120917105529.3dfd5167@resist.wooz.org>

On Sep 15, 2012, at 06:48 AM, Tom Browder wrote:

>Is there any output format available other than json?

Currently, JSON is the only supported output format.  I'd be open to patches
that provide other output formats.

-Barry


From aurelien at bompard.org  Mon Sep 17 17:06:27 2012
From: aurelien at bompard.org (Aurelien Bompard)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:06:27 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding keys in the configuration file
In-Reply-To: <CAHmoxtU4rn2SXxQaBeoqjUsfMsG2P_D3uz5CwmNSJFsSa=uBMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHmoxtWCCWGBM=R3Oxpss4+hk4z3onWvz=iGwAeoRgRx2sRB0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A420BB1-9F04-4813-ABF4-2FD3BDE3F2DD@NFSNet.org>
	<CAHmoxtUR3k7baYkaJ0Qb4GPXSZMwLVLeqw_AHjKL4fbyxL3fpQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120913154834.3e9a718b@resist.wooz.org>
	<5052532A.5000001@bompard.org>
	<20120913194405.18616048@resist.wooz.org>
	<CAHmoxtU4rn2SXxQaBeoqjUsfMsG2P_D3uz5CwmNSJFsSa=uBMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHmoxtV27Vxkgx5rjpPpRt3WGQprws0cYVKj6J_L+VtqW966Mg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Mailmaners,

Here's a version of the "external configuration files" patch. As Barry
suggested, it adds a "configure" entry in the archiver's section,
which can point to an ini-compatible configuration file (ConfigParser
is used) for additional archiver-specific configuration.
I've migrated the existing archiver config to separate files too. The
stock files are shipped in the config directory, and can be overrided
by a configuration file of the same name in $ext_dir.
I've tried to keep the ini-file loading method generic, in case we
want the same feature somewhere else.

Please tell me what you think of it, if and where it needs some more work.

Aur?lien
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From barry at list.org  Mon Sep 17 17:29:41 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:29:41 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding keys in the configuration file
In-Reply-To: <CAHmoxtV27Vxkgx5rjpPpRt3WGQprws0cYVKj6J_L+VtqW966Mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHmoxtWCCWGBM=R3Oxpss4+hk4z3onWvz=iGwAeoRgRx2sRB0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A420BB1-9F04-4813-ABF4-2FD3BDE3F2DD@NFSNet.org>
	<CAHmoxtUR3k7baYkaJ0Qb4GPXSZMwLVLeqw_AHjKL4fbyxL3fpQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120913154834.3e9a718b@resist.wooz.org>
	<5052532A.5000001@bompard.org>
	<20120913194405.18616048@resist.wooz.org>
	<CAHmoxtU4rn2SXxQaBeoqjUsfMsG2P_D3uz5CwmNSJFsSa=uBMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHmoxtV27Vxkgx5rjpPpRt3WGQprws0cYVKj6J_L+VtqW966Mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120917112941.7ae92785@resist.wooz.org>

On Sep 17, 2012, at 05:06 PM, Aurelien Bompard wrote:

>Please tell me what you think of it, if and where it needs some more work.

Is there any chance you could push this to Launchpad as a branch?  Patches in
email threads are easily missed.

Cheers,
-Barry

From aurelien at bompard.org  Mon Sep 17 18:03:02 2012
From: aurelien at bompard.org (Aurelien Bompard)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:03:02 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding keys in the configuration file
In-Reply-To: <20120917112941.7ae92785@resist.wooz.org>
References: <CAHmoxtWCCWGBM=R3Oxpss4+hk4z3onWvz=iGwAeoRgRx2sRB0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A420BB1-9F04-4813-ABF4-2FD3BDE3F2DD@NFSNet.org>
	<CAHmoxtUR3k7baYkaJ0Qb4GPXSZMwLVLeqw_AHjKL4fbyxL3fpQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120913154834.3e9a718b@resist.wooz.org>
	<5052532A.5000001@bompard.org>
	<20120913194405.18616048@resist.wooz.org>
	<CAHmoxtU4rn2SXxQaBeoqjUsfMsG2P_D3uz5CwmNSJFsSa=uBMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHmoxtV27Vxkgx5rjpPpRt3WGQprws0cYVKj6J_L+VtqW966Mg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120917112941.7ae92785@resist.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <CAHmoxtW0_-L_nD94pLYeVy0UfmAOyFLA3Cw12-g1-Ct4emZEbA@mail.gmail.com>

> Is there any chance you could push this to Launchpad as a branch?

Sure. I've pushed it to Launchpad and filed a merge proposal.

Cheers,
Aur?lien

From f at state-of-mind.de  Mon Sep 17 20:44:21 2012
From: f at state-of-mind.de (Florian Fuchs)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:44:21 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
In-Reply-To: <20120917105024.6a07c350@resist.wooz.org>
References: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120916124156.GW5644@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<20120917105024.6a07c350@resist.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <50576F85.2060600@state-of-mind.de>

Hi,

On 09/17/2012 04:50 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> Maybe now that the core is pretty close to what it will be like when released,
> we can get more volunteers to help test Postorius, and perhaps contribute to
> it?  It would be cool if we could do a simultaneous release, but OTOH, the
> architecture of MM3 expressly encourages separation of the web ui from the
> engine.

I suggest, a good way to move forward would be to define a list of 
missing features and criteria we agree Postorius will need at a minimum 
to be worthy of being released alongside MM3.

Since I guess that not everybody is aware of all the existing features, 
I can prepare a list of those (as well as some comments on problems or 
decisions that need to be made), so we don't start the discussion with 
"It needs to be able to create new mailing lists".

I can't do that *right now*, but most definitely tomorrow.

Cheers
Florian




From p at state-of-mind.de  Mon Sep 17 21:12:34 2012
From: p at state-of-mind.de (Patrick Ben Koetter)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:12:34 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
In-Reply-To: <20120917105024.6a07c350@resist.wooz.org>
References: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120916124156.GW5644@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<20120917105024.6a07c350@resist.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <20120917191234.GD20331@state-of-mind.de>

* Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org>:
> On Sep 16, 2012, at 01:41 PM, Adam McGreggor wrote:
> 
> >Part of the attraction in using Mailman 2, was that, for the majority
> >of tasks end-users want to do, they can do it via the web interface;
> >certainly an advantage over those "you have to do everything by email,
> >in the proscribed manner, to the right address" 'alternatives' (I say
> >'alternatives' as I don't think they're fit for non-geeks (and even
> >some struggle with those).
> >
> >I would not roll-out Mailman 3 if there were not an end-users' web
> >interface, at the very least for subscription management/alterations.
> 
> Maybe now that the core is pretty close to what it will be like when released,
> we can get more volunteers to help test Postorius, and perhaps contribute to
> it?  It would be cool if we could do a simultaneous release, but OTOH, the
> architecture of MM3 expressly encourages separation of the web ui from the
> engine.

I think if we release MM3 without 'a frontend' we will miss people's
expectation to get a feature complete MLM - which includes a frontend in most
peoples opinion I guess.

> I do think that if we release them separately, we'll have to be very clear
> about setting expectations.

I wouldn't do it.

p at rick

-- 
state of mind ()

http://www.state-of-mind.de

Franziskanerstra?e 15      Telefon +49 89 3090 4664
81669 M?nchen              Telefax +49 89 3090 4666

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From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Sep 18 04:03:27 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:03:27 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
In-Reply-To: <20120917191234.GD20331@state-of-mind.de>
References: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120916124156.GW5644@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<20120917105024.6a07c350@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120917191234.GD20331@state-of-mind.de>
Message-ID: <87obl4ozo0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Patrick Ben Koetter writes:

 > I think if we release MM3 without 'a frontend' we will miss
 > people's expectation to get a feature complete MLM - which includes
 > a frontend in most peoples opinion I guess.

I agree on the basis of introspection (which is obviously a
statistically biased sample), and pretty clearly the people who are
currently posting "will I get feature X if I use Mailman 3" aren't
thinking "I don't mind if I lose features Y, Z, and W, too" when they
do.

It's possible that there's a vast silent majority who understand the
implications of the regular statement that "Mailman 3 will not be a
front end, but rather front ends will communicate with Mailman 3 via a
RESTful interface".  Even if so, I think the "what were they thinking,
releasing without a bundled front end!?" crowd is going to be large,
and they will leave and will not come back soon.  In particular, I
doubt we'll get any interest from cPanel et al[1], which to date has
been an important way that Mailman gets introduced to people.

Footnotes: 
[1]  They don't strike me as being creative enough to figure out that
this means they can write their own proprietary front end.


From turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp  Tue Sep 18 03:38:10 2012
From: turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:38:10 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "newlist" command and Mailman 3
In-Reply-To: <20120917105529.3dfd5167@resist.wooz.org>
References: <CAFMGiz_B8R2g8-WnJVP05=TfWoe_kcx4eH4FJPPfFMbP+0T-gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC19520120909082336039046db67aa@MSAPIRO>
	<CAFMGiz8GhnxS8qP1-jZew3S5z1=LUPV0VAwTaAzwGHu2Gq1oyg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFMGiz_jX4gV2DjrA0yrz7FR-GV-wL1xke1qCyBH+WTu1nVxwg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120917105529.3dfd5167@resist.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <87pq5kp0u5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Barry Warsaw writes:

 > Currently, JSON is the only supported output format.  I'd be open to patches
 > that provide other output formats.

Please, no.  "Filters are one honking great idea.  Let's do more of
those!"

I think most of the interesting programming languages people might
write Mailman functionality in have JSON parser/generator modules.
JSON is not a bad serialization format (I think it's pretty good,
actually, but conservatively it's not bad, right?)  Let's stick to
that rather that proliferate incompatible interfaces.

From bob at nleaudio.com  Tue Sep 18 05:39:56 2012
From: bob at nleaudio.com (Bob Puff@NLE)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:39:56 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
In-Reply-To: <87obl4ozo0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120916124156.GW5644@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<20120917105024.6a07c350@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120917191234.GD20331@state-of-mind.de>
	<87obl4ozo0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <5057ED0C.4070105@nleaudio.com>

I've been in lurk mode for quite some time, but I have to throw in my $0.02.  As an admin of several 
busy servers, and mailman lists that send out close to a million emails per week, I can say that I 
don't have the time to deal with trying to create a new interface. I made my own cheat sheet of how 
to install Mailman on my servers, which already is not a simple process.  But from my gatherings 
here, MM3 will -not- be a drop-in replacement, which is what I would need.  It seems like there is a 
lot of stuff to configure, different packages, etc... And if there's no web GUI?  That's useless to 
me. I'll be sticking with MM 2.x until MM3 -is- a drop-in replacement, in whatever form that comes in.

Its nice that there all these hooks into different parts of the program.  But if it doesn't do what 
MM 2.x did out of the box, its not going to fly.

Suggestion: work on a self-contained complete solution.  If people want to enhance and extend, then 
let them at the full MM 3 system. But I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting the least amount of software 
needed to run the package.  I don't want more servers (processes). I need secure, low-footprint, low 
cpu-utilization processes.

Bob

Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Patrick Ben Koetter writes:
>
>   > I think if we release MM3 without 'a frontend' we will miss
>   > people's expectation to get a feature complete MLM - which includes
>   > a frontend in most peoples opinion I guess.
>
> I agree on the basis of introspection (which is obviously a
> statistically biased sample), and pretty clearly the people who are
> currently posting "will I get feature X if I use Mailman 3" aren't
> thinking "I don't mind if I lose features Y, Z, and W, too" when they
> do.
>
> It's possible that there's a vast silent majority who understand the
> implications of the regular statement that "Mailman 3 will not be a
> front end, but rather front ends will communicate with Mailman 3 via a
> RESTful interface".  Even if so, I think the "what were they thinking,
> releasing without a bundled front end!?" crowd is going to be large,
> and they will leave and will not come back soon.  In particular, I
> doubt we'll get any interest from cPanel et al[1], which to date has
> been an important way that Mailman gets introduced to people.
>
> Footnotes:
> [1]  They don't strike me as being creative enough to figure out that
> this means they can write their own proprietary front end.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/bob%40nleaudio.com
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Sep 18 06:13:30 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:13:30 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
In-Reply-To: <5057ED0C.4070105@nleaudio.com>
References: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120916124156.GW5644@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<20120917105024.6a07c350@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120917191234.GD20331@state-of-mind.de>
	<87obl4ozo0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<5057ED0C.4070105@nleaudio.com>
Message-ID: <87lig8otn9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Bob Puff at NLE writes:

 > I don't want more servers (processes). I need secure,
 > low-footprint, low cpu-utilization processes.

You're not going to get more processes unless you want them.  The
processes currently planned are just called "runners" now, and will be
less coupled than currently.

Whether the particular implementations under development are going to
work for you, "you know it when you see them", I guess.

I wouldn't advise you to hold your breath if *secure* is really high
on your list, though.  I think the new architecture is going to be
overall more secure (eg, better handling of authentication), but
evaluating that in a corporate security context is going to be just as
much effort and annoyance as any time you introduce a new application.
(If not, you should worry about whether your security people are doing
their job!<wink/>)

Steve

From terri at zone12.com  Tue Sep 18 06:26:11 2012
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:26:11 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
In-Reply-To: <20120917191234.GD20331@state-of-mind.de>
References: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120916124156.GW5644@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<20120917105024.6a07c350@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120917191234.GD20331@state-of-mind.de>
Message-ID: <5057F7E3.4080704@zone12.com>


On 12-09-17 1:12 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:
> I think if we release MM3 without 'a frontend' we will miss people's 
> expectation to get a feature complete MLM - which includes a frontend 
> in most peoples opinion I guess.
>> I do think that if we release them separately, we'll have to be very clear
>> about setting expectations.
> I wouldn't do it.
>

As the person who thought it was a bad idea to separate the two 
projects, I agree that I think releasing without a frontend will be 
pretty underwhelming for folk.  But rather than delaying the core 
development, I think it might make more sense to have a mailman 3 core 
release and then a big advertised "Mailman 3 complete" release when the 
other related projects are available for a bundled release.

That said, I'm tentatively planning a personal postorious hackathon all 
day Saturday the 22nd.  If anyone wants to join me, I'll be on #mailman 
on freenode!

  Terri


From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Sep 18 07:39:34 2012
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 14:39:34 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
In-Reply-To: <5057F7E3.4080704@zone12.com>
References: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120916124156.GW5644@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<20120917105024.6a07c350@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120917191234.GD20331@state-of-mind.de>
	<5057F7E3.4080704@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <87ipbbq489.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Terri Oda writes:

 > That said, I'm tentatively planning a personal postorious hackathon all 
 > day Saturday the 22nd.  If anyone wants to join me, I'll be on #mailman 
 > on freenode!

I don't think I can join but maybe ....  Could you be a bit more
specific than "all day" (especially time zone)?

Steve

From terri at zone12.com  Tue Sep 18 08:08:23 2012
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 00:08:23 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
In-Reply-To: <87ipbbq489.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120916124156.GW5644@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<20120917105024.6a07c350@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120917191234.GD20331@state-of-mind.de>
	<5057F7E3.4080704@zone12.com>
	<87ipbbq489.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <50580FD7.1090506@zone12.com>

On 12-09-17 11:39 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Terri Oda writes:
>
>   > That said, I'm tentatively planning a personal postorious hackathon all
>   > day Saturday the 22nd.  If anyone wants to join me, I'll be on #mailman
>   > on freenode!
>
> I don't think I can join but maybe ....  Could you be a bit more
> specific than "all day" (especially time zone)?
*laugh* That would help, wouldn't it?

I'm in US Mountain daylight time, which is UTC -600 I think?

I hadn't really set myself a schedule yet, but I'll probably be testing 
my setup and doing some prelim stuff on Friday night my time (probably 
8pm mountain/2am saturday UTC or later) and then actually hacking 
starting sometime around  11am mountain/5pm UTC on Saturday probably 
running 'till around 11pm or later with some breaks for errands.

If I recall your time zone correctly, my evening is your morning, so if 
you want to stop by and argue with me, we should overlap Saturday 
morning for you/Fri night for me and ditto for Sunday/Saturday the next day.

Possibly helpful (I'm in Albuquerque, and the rest of you can add your 
own time zones):

http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?month=9&day=22&year=2012&p1=394&p2=37&p3=248&iv=0

From tmurls at gmail.com  Tue Sep 18 06:58:47 2012
From: tmurls at gmail.com (Murls)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:28:47 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Vs Sharepoint
Message-ID: <CAMoe_tgivvsymbGin2UogWo1cPamPTTgE9V3ZEaetanp6verJw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Developers,

Need help on justifying Mailman is not outdated technology and how its
better than Microsoft Sharepoint.

Responses will be appreciated.

Cheers,

From barry at list.org  Tue Sep 18 17:22:56 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:22:56 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Vs Sharepoint
In-Reply-To: <CAMoe_tgivvsymbGin2UogWo1cPamPTTgE9V3ZEaetanp6verJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMoe_tgivvsymbGin2UogWo1cPamPTTgE9V3ZEaetanp6verJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120918112256.4fb35506@resist.wooz.org>

On Sep 18, 2012, at 10:28 AM, Murls wrote:

>Need help on justifying Mailman is not outdated technology and how its
>better than Microsoft Sharepoint.

First, GNU Mailman is free software, so you have the freedom to use it for any
purpose, to make whatever changes you want to suite your specific needs, and
to redistribute those changes to others, as long as you confer the same rights
along with your changes.

Second, these are two different tools with very different goals.  Wikipedia
tells me that SharePoint is a large web application suite of tools, perhaps
one of those tools is a mailing list manager (I don't know).

GNU Mailman is solely focused on the task of managing mailing lists.
Especially with Mailman 3, it is designed to be easily integrated with other
tools, but in the best Unix tradition, it doesn't try to take over those
tasks.

Cheers,
-Barry

From andrew at hodgsonfamily.org  Tue Sep 18 18:46:39 2012
From: andrew at hodgsonfamily.org (Andrew Hodgson)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:46:39 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Vs Sharepoint
In-Reply-To: <CAMoe_tgivvsymbGin2UogWo1cPamPTTgE9V3ZEaetanp6verJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMoe_tgivvsymbGin2UogWo1cPamPTTgE9V3ZEaetanp6verJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504EBCE8F@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>

Murls wrote:

>Dear Developers,

>Need help on justifying Mailman is not outdated technology and how its better than Microsoft Sharepoint.

For what purpose exactly?  I could be quite controversial here and say that in some usage scenarios SharePoint is a better fit than Mailman, but it depends on what your goals are now, what you want to do, and the people you have to work with.

Andrew. 

From f at state-of-mind.de  Tue Sep 18 21:42:21 2012
From: f at state-of-mind.de (Florian Fuchs)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 21:42:21 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
In-Reply-To: <5057F7E3.4080704@zone12.com>
References: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120916124156.GW5644@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<20120917105024.6a07c350@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120917191234.GD20331@state-of-mind.de>
	<5057F7E3.4080704@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <5058CE9D.5080101@state-of-mind.de>



On 09/18/2012 06:26 AM, Terri Oda wrote:
> That said, I'm tentatively planning a personal postorious hackathon all
> day Saturday the 22nd.  If anyone wants to join me, I'll be on #mailman
> on freenode!

Excellent idea! I don't know yet how much time I'll be able to free up 
on Saturday, but I will definitely show up on IRC some time during the 
day...

Florian


From f at state-of-mind.de  Tue Sep 18 21:54:08 2012
From: f at state-of-mind.de (Florian Fuchs)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 21:54:08 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Postorius: Missing Features (Draft)
Message-ID: <5058D160.4050500@state-of-mind.de>

Hi all,

in order to give everyone interested (and everyone joining this 
Saturdays's mini-hackathon) something to code, here's a list of existing 
Postorius features, followed by a list of *some* missing features. Of 
course, the second list is up for discussion - ideally it should 
transform into a concrete "what Postorius must be able to do"-list 
before Friday, so we can file bugs on launchpad and assign them.


1) Existing Features:

* Add/Remove lists
* List overview (shows all public mailing lists).
* List info/subscribe/unsubscribe
* Mass subscription (admin only)
* List members overview (admin only)
* Held messages/moderation (admin only)
* Edit list settings (list identity, autoresponse, digest. moderation - 
admin only)
* Add domains (admin only)
* Authentication through BrowserID or a Postorius admin account (created 
during installation).


2) What's missing:

* Adding/editing users
* Editing user data
* Assigning roles to existing memberships (member/owner/moderator).
* Access control based on membership roles/superuser status.
* Membership moderation
* Better/more help/success/error messages
* Better test coverage
* OpenID Log-In
* Registration without BrowserID, OpenID?
* Anonymous subscriptions?
* Translation?

There are, of course, many more possible features, but I'd consider 
these the essentials. I'm also sure I've missed something important... ;-)

Cheers
Florian





From richard at NFSNet.org  Tue Sep 18 22:10:08 2012
From: richard at NFSNet.org (Richard Wackerbarth)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 15:10:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
In-Reply-To: <5058CE9D.5080101@state-of-mind.de>
References: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120916124156.GW5644@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<20120917105024.6a07c350@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120917191234.GD20331@state-of-mind.de>
	<5057F7E3.4080704@zone12.com> <5058CE9D.5080101@state-of-mind.de>
Message-ID: <E7A44437-A329-43FF-BBF9-F52F0206B10E@NFSNet.org>

On 09/18/2012 06:26 AM, Terri Oda wrote:
> That said, I'm tentatively planning a personal postorious hackathon all
> day Saturday the 22nd.  If anyone wants to join me, I'll be on #mailman
> on freenode!

Sorry that I cannot participate this weekend. I have another activity that will keep me busy from Friday afternoon through the weekend.

Richard

From barry at list.org  Thu Sep 20 02:59:20 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 20:59:20 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
In-Reply-To: <5057F7E3.4080704@zone12.com>
References: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120916124156.GW5644@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<20120917105024.6a07c350@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120917191234.GD20331@state-of-mind.de>
	<5057F7E3.4080704@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <20120919205920.33be223b@limelight.wooz.org>

On Sep 17, 2012, at 10:26 PM, Terri Oda wrote:

>That said, I'm tentatively planning a personal postorious hackathon all day
>Saturday the 22nd.  If anyone wants to join me, I'll be on #mailman on
>freenode!

This is a great idea, thanks for suggesting it Terri!  I'll definitely try to
show up for as much of the day as I can, US/Eastern.

-Barry


From barry at list.org  Thu Sep 20 03:03:42 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 21:03:42 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting to Mailman 3.0 final
In-Reply-To: <87obl4ozo0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <20120910140459.6ecfb963@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120916124156.GW5644@hendricks.amyl.org.uk>
	<20120917105024.6a07c350@resist.wooz.org>
	<20120917191234.GD20331@state-of-mind.de>
	<87obl4ozo0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20120919210342.7ad2b8e8@limelight.wooz.org>

On Sep 18, 2012, at 11:03 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

>I agree on the basis of introspection (which is obviously a
>statistically biased sample), and pretty clearly the people who are
>currently posting "will I get feature X if I use Mailman 3" aren't
>thinking "I don't mind if I lose features Y, Z, and W, too" when they
>do.

If we can get Postorius in pretty good shape soon-ish, then I'm fine with
waiting.  I can use the time to fix bugs in the core, and add any critically
missing features (mostly defined as, what does Postorius need to get us to a
final release).

Looking forward to Saturday!

-Barry

From f at state-of-mind.de  Fri Sep 21 22:06:45 2012
From: f at state-of-mind.de (Florian Fuchs)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 22:06:45 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman.client
Message-ID: <505CC8D5.1030900@state-of-mind.de>

Hi there,

I've just pushed some small changes to mailman.client. So for everyone 
taking part in tomorrow's Postorius hackathon: Make sure you have the 
most recent revision of mailman.client installed. Otherwise Postorius is 
not going to work fully with the recent version of the MM3 core.

Looking forward to seeing you tomorrow on #mailman!

Cheers
Florian

P.S.: @Barry: Is there a way to get the "list_id" property from a list 
resource in the API? The JSON returned by /3.0/lists/<fqdn_listname> 
doesn't seem to contain such a field. So in order to make mailman.client 
work with 3.0b2, I simply used fqdn_listname and replaced the "@" with a 
dot. Dirty, I know... But only a preliminary hack until I know how to 
get the list_id from the API. ;-)




From barry at list.org  Sat Sep 22 00:10:08 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 18:10:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman.client
In-Reply-To: <505CC8D5.1030900@state-of-mind.de>
References: <505CC8D5.1030900@state-of-mind.de>
Message-ID: <20120921181008.3a8e80a2@resist.wooz.org>

On Sep 21, 2012, at 10:06 PM, Florian Fuchs wrote:

>P.S.: @Barry: Is there a way to get the "list_id" property from a list
>resource in the API? The JSON returned by /3.0/lists/<fqdn_listname> doesn't
>seem to contain such a field. So in order to make mailman.client work with
>3.0b2, I simply used fqdn_listname and replaced the "@" with a dot. Dirty, I
>know... But only a preliminary hack until I know how to get the list_id from
>the API. ;-)

Yep, I think there's a new merge proposal for this.  Much of what I'm
planning on doing tomorrow is fixing things in the core that the ui needs, so
this will be one of the first things I attack tomorrow.

See you then!

-Barry

From tmurls at gmail.com  Fri Sep 21 12:05:26 2012
From: tmurls at gmail.com (Murls)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:35:26 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Vs Sharepoint
In-Reply-To: <BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504EBCE8F@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>
References: <CAMoe_tgivvsymbGin2UogWo1cPamPTTgE9V3ZEaetanp6verJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BB9F4444F3417B4993F70CAA3C974F9504EBCE8F@sha-ex10-mbx02.exchange.simply.ms>
Message-ID: <CAMoe_ticuvekxq+rAD3PMnbrrqxZm5T_rBGxsJ9GnTAWGH9zrQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Andrew,

We have online forum running using Mailman Software for posting member /
their queries and member registration management on Drupal based website
with MYSQL as database. Emails are moderated by Moderators.

In mailman we have an option of editing header of the email before posting
it finally on the forum.

Can Microsoft SharePoint give user option to edit email header and option
to post the final email to the forum by the Moderators.

Can Microsoft SharePoint do the following:

1) Member Management?
2) Editing Header of the email before its sent to the forum
3) Moderate emails (Deny, Approve or Discard)
4) Send Sign Up / Welcoming emails

Cheers, Murls

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 10:16 PM, Andrew Hodgson
<andrew at hodgsonfamily.org>wrote:

> Murls wrote:
>
> >Dear Developers,
>
> >Need help on justifying Mailman is not outdated technology and how its
> better than Microsoft Sharepoint.
>
> For what purpose exactly?  I could be quite controversial here and say
> that in some usage scenarios SharePoint is a better fit than Mailman, but
> it depends on what your goals are now, what you want to do, and the people
> you have to work with.
>
> Andrew.
>

From terri at zone12.com  Wed Sep 26 10:25:16 2012
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 02:25:16 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Unforeseen difficulties with the Mailman logo
Message-ID: <5062BBEC.90200@zone12.com>

So, I'm having a bit of trouble with the Mailman logo:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrio/8025917889/in/photostream

The problem being that the delicate lines pretty much just don't show up 
when I try to print it in button size.

I don't suppose anyone here has some hidden graphics-fu and could help 
me out?  the buttons have a 1.375in printable area, and I'm using a 
colour laser.  Maybe if I switched to a single colour instead of the 
gradients it would help make them work better?

The original logo page is here:
http://list.org/images/logo2010.svg

I made a stab at thickening up those lines here (this is the sheet I 
used to make the actual button in the photo):
http://terri.zone12.com/mailman-logo-buttonsheet.svg

I'd like to make a few of these for the GHC hackathon (Sat Oct 6th 
8:30-4:30 North American Eastern Time, and we'll be on IRC if any of you 
would like to join us!), but I'm currently despairing of managing to 
produce some that are legible and attractive.

  Terri


From turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp  Wed Sep 26 11:57:05 2012
From: turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:57:05 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Unforeseen difficulties with the Mailman logo
In-Reply-To: <5062BBEC.90200@zone12.com>
References: <5062BBEC.90200@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <87d319m7im.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Terri Oda writes:

 > I don't suppose anyone here has some hidden graphics-fu and could help 
 > me out?  the buttons have a 1.375in printable area,

I'm no graphics expert, but at that size, I'd avoid gradients unless
you've got at least 1200dpi, preferably 2400dpi resolution.

You could try offsetting the origin by a fraction of a pixel.

What graphics program are you using?  Maybe you could try a different
one.  The button-sized originals look fine in Firefox on a Mac.

You also might have better luck rendering to a bitmap at high
resolution (ie, size), and then dithering down to scale.

I actually don't think the photo looks that bad, except that I can't
read the "GNU", and having the logo bleed off the face of the button
would work better if the postmark effect were clearer.  But postmarks
tend to be partial anyway, so maybe it would be OK if you shrink the
logo a bit.


From barry at list.org  Wed Sep 26 16:07:54 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 10:07:54 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Unforeseen difficulties with the Mailman
 logo
In-Reply-To: <5062BBEC.90200@zone12.com>
References: <5062BBEC.90200@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <20120926100754.410fac27@resist.wooz.org>

I am very definitely graphics challenged, but I'm CC'ing Andrija, the artist
who generated the original logo.  Maybe he has some ideas about adjusting the
images for these buttons (which is a great idea, btw!).

Cheers,
-Barry

On Sep 26, 2012, at 02:25 AM, Terri Oda wrote:

>So, I'm having a bit of trouble with the Mailman logo:
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrio/8025917889/in/photostream
>
>The problem being that the delicate lines pretty much just don't show up when I try to print it in button size.
>
>I don't suppose anyone here has some hidden graphics-fu and could help me out?  the buttons have a 1.375in printable area, and I'm using a colour laser.  Maybe if I switched to a single colour instead of the gradients it would help make them work better?
>
>The original logo page is here:
>http://list.org/images/logo2010.svg
>
>I made a stab at thickening up those lines here (this is the sheet I used to make the actual button in the photo):
>http://terri.zone12.com/mailman-logo-buttonsheet.svg
>
>I'd like to make a few of these for the GHC hackathon (Sat Oct 6th 8:30-4:30 North American Eastern Time, and we'll be on IRC if any of you would like to join us!), but I'm currently despairing of managing to produce some that are legible and attractive.

From arsicandrija at gmail.com  Wed Sep 26 16:21:31 2012
From: arsicandrija at gmail.com (Andrija Arsic)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 16:21:31 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Unforeseen difficulties with the Mailman
	logo
In-Reply-To: <20120926100754.410fac27@resist.wooz.org>
References: <5062BBEC.90200@zone12.com>
	<20120926100754.410fac27@resist.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <CALr9vB+Etrb+4nPH4LQs0Dytf5zhnU2n0RYVmRx5_q9UbsZikw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi there,

at this side, I can't be 100% sure what can be the problem, but I will bet
on gradient colors. I am attaching one .svg file with solid color (darker
blue from original colors) so you can give it a try.
The other option is that the printer can't give the best look. Maybe you
can try on any other.

Let me know if this helps.

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org> wrote:

> I am very definitely graphics challenged, but I'm CC'ing Andrija, the
> artist
> who generated the original logo.  Maybe he has some ideas about adjusting
> the
> images for these buttons (which is a great idea, btw!).
>
> Cheers,
> -Barry
>
> On Sep 26, 2012, at 02:25 AM, Terri Oda wrote:
>
> >So, I'm having a bit of trouble with the Mailman logo:
> >
> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrio/8025917889/in/photostream
> >
> >The problem being that the delicate lines pretty much just don't show up
> when I try to print it in button size.
> >
> >I don't suppose anyone here has some hidden graphics-fu and could help me
> out?  the buttons have a 1.375in printable area, and I'm using a colour
> laser.  Maybe if I switched to a single colour instead of the gradients it
> would help make them work better?
> >
> >The original logo page is here:
> >http://list.org/images/logo2010.svg
> >
> >I made a stab at thickening up those lines here (this is the sheet I used
> to make the actual button in the photo):
> >http://terri.zone12.com/mailman-logo-buttonsheet.svg
> >
> >I'd like to make a few of these for the GHC hackathon (Sat Oct 6th
> 8:30-4:30 North American Eastern Time, and we'll be on IRC if any of you
> would like to join us!), but I'm currently despairing of managing to
> produce some that are legible and attractive.
>



-- 
*Best regards!*


*Andrija Arsic*

http://andrijaarsic.com/
e-mail: arsicandrija at gmail.com
Phone: 00 381 63 8015012
Skype: mindopener_
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From terri at zone12.com  Fri Sep 28 07:26:47 2012
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 23:26:47 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Unforeseen difficulties with the Mailman
 logo
In-Reply-To: <CALr9vB+Etrb+4nPH4LQs0Dytf5zhnU2n0RYVmRx5_q9UbsZikw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5062BBEC.90200@zone12.com>
	<20120926100754.410fac27@resist.wooz.org>
	<CALr9vB+Etrb+4nPH4LQs0Dytf5zhnU2n0RYVmRx5_q9UbsZikw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50653517.3020204@zone12.com>

Thanks Andrija!  Going with a solid colour helped a lot.  I had to do a 
bit of tweaking of the lines to make the button visible from a 
reasonable distance (and to offset the low resolution of the printer I 
have on hand), but I now have colourful GNU Mailman buttons to give out 
at GHC12 next week. :)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrio/8031876226/

I do promise to print and mail out a few for my GSoC mentors if I can 
find your addresses (And Andrija if you send me your address!), but the 
rest of you may have to wait 'till pycon if you want one of mine.  But 
you can print your own!  Here's the template I used:

http://terri.zone12.com/mailman-logo-buttonsheet-dark.svg

I'm pretty sure that falls under my existing copyright agreement with 
Mailman or standard GPL since it's modified from the logo,  so you 
should consider it GPL'ed and free for use as you see fit. It's a 
standard 1.5" button if you happen to know someone else with a button 
machine or want to do a run at a print shop.

  Terri



On 12-09-26 8:21 AM, Andrija Arsic wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> at this side, I can't be 100% sure what can be the problem, but I will bet
> on gradient colors. I am attaching one .svg file with solid color (darker
> blue from original colors) so you can give it a try.
> The other option is that the printer can't give the best look. Maybe you
> can try on any other.
>
> Let me know if this helps.
>
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org> wrote:
>
>> I am very definitely graphics challenged, but I'm CC'ing Andrija, the
>> artist
>> who generated the original logo.  Maybe he has some ideas about adjusting
>> the
>> images for these buttons (which is a great idea, btw!).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Barry
>>
>> On Sep 26, 2012, at 02:25 AM, Terri Oda wrote:
>>
>>> So, I'm having a bit of trouble with the Mailman logo:
>>>
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrio/8025917889/in/photostream
>>>
>>> The problem being that the delicate lines pretty much just don't show up
>> when I try to print it in button size.
>>> I don't suppose anyone here has some hidden graphics-fu and could help me
>> out?  the buttons have a 1.375in printable area, and I'm using a colour
>> laser.  Maybe if I switched to a single colour instead of the gradients it
>> would help make them work better?
>>> The original logo page is here:
>>> http://list.org/images/logo2010.svg
>>>
>>> I made a stab at thickening up those lines here (this is the sheet I used
>> to make the actual button in the photo):
>>> http://terri.zone12.com/mailman-logo-buttonsheet.svg
>>>
>>> I'd like to make a few of these for the GHC hackathon (Sat Oct 6th
>> 8:30-4:30 North American Eastern Time, and we'll be on IRC if any of you
>> would like to join us!), but I'm currently despairing of managing to
>> produce some that are legible and attractive.
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/terri%40zone12.com
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9


From barry at list.org  Sat Sep 29 01:37:52 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 19:37:52 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Unforeseen difficulties with the Mailman
 logo
In-Reply-To: <50653517.3020204@zone12.com>
References: <5062BBEC.90200@zone12.com>
	<20120926100754.410fac27@resist.wooz.org>
	<CALr9vB+Etrb+4nPH4LQs0Dytf5zhnU2n0RYVmRx5_q9UbsZikw@mail.gmail.com>
	<50653517.3020204@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <20120928193752.6249bc8a@resist.wooz.org>

On Sep 27, 2012, at 11:26 PM, Terri Oda wrote:

>Thanks Andrija!  Going with a solid colour helped a lot.  I had to do a bit
>of tweaking of the lines to make the button visible from a reasonable
>distance (and to offset the low resolution of the printer I have on hand),
>but I now have colourful GNU Mailman buttons to give out at GHC12 next
>week. :)
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrio/8031876226/

It looks awesome!

-Barry
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From terri at zone12.com  Sat Sep 29 05:38:23 2012
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 21:38:23 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Postorius: Missing Features (Draft)
In-Reply-To: <5058D160.4050500@state-of-mind.de>
References: <5058D160.4050500@state-of-mind.de>
Message-ID: <50666D2F.6050407@zone12.com>

I think I've just stuck all of Florian's missing features into the 
postorius bug database.

I'm doing a bit of triaging on the bug list in preparation for next 
week's GHC12 hackathon.  This includes tagging a few bugs as 
beginner-friendly:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/postorius/+bugs?field.tag=beginner-friendly

1. Please don't solve those bugs until after next weekend.  I want to 
make sure I have some satisfying low-hanging fruit for my hackathon 
participants.

2. If you can think of any other "easy" things that need doing for 
postorious (or Mailman 3.0, or hyperkitty) please tag them in some way 
and let me know!

A day isn't much time to hack on a project, so the more satisfying 
things that can be completed in a few hours we have available, the more 
of our little bugs will get squashed. :)

  Terri


On 12-09-18 1:54 PM, Florian Fuchs wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> in order to give everyone interested (and everyone joining this 
> Saturdays's mini-hackathon) something to code, here's a list of 
> existing Postorius features, followed by a list of *some* missing 
> features. Of course, the second list is up for discussion - ideally it 
> should transform into a concrete "what Postorius must be able to 
> do"-list before Friday, so we can file bugs on launchpad and assign them.
>
>
> 1) Existing Features:
>
> * Add/Remove lists
> * List overview (shows all public mailing lists).
> * List info/subscribe/unsubscribe
> * Mass subscription (admin only)
> * List members overview (admin only)
> * Held messages/moderation (admin only)
> * Edit list settings (list identity, autoresponse, digest. moderation 
> - admin only)
> * Add domains (admin only)
> * Authentication through BrowserID or a Postorius admin account 
> (created during installation).
>
>
> 2) What's missing:
>
> * Adding/editing users
> * Editing user data
> * Assigning roles to existing memberships (member/owner/moderator).
> * Access control based on membership roles/superuser status.
> * Membership moderation
> * Better/more help/success/error messages
> * Better test coverage
> * OpenID Log-In
> * Registration without BrowserID, OpenID?
> * Anonymous subscriptions?
> * Translation?
>
> There are, of course, many more possible features, but I'd consider 
> these the essentials. I'm also sure I've missed something important... 
> ;-)
>
> Cheers
> Florian
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/terri%40zone12.com
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>


From barry at list.org  Sat Sep 29 18:38:06 2012
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:38:06 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Postorius: Missing Features (Draft)
In-Reply-To: <50666D2F.6050407@zone12.com>
References: <5058D160.4050500@state-of-mind.de> <50666D2F.6050407@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <20120929123806.39e24f74@limelight.wooz.org>

On Sep 28, 2012, at 09:38 PM, Terri Oda wrote:

>2. If you can think of any other "easy" things that need doing for postorious
>(or Mailman 3.0, or hyperkitty) please tag them in some way and let me know!

Not that you have to change anything in Postorius, but for the core, I've been
using the official 'easy' tag for things I think new contributors could work
on.  I am due to make a triage pass through the current open bug list, and
I'll keep an eye on core bugs that could be tackled as 'easy'.

Have fun!  I'll be on irc during the conference so definitely ping me if
necessary.

Cheers,
-Barry