From iane at sussex.ac.uk Wed Jan 4 14:23:18 2012 From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 13:23:18 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] feature request: one-click setting to preserve DKIM In-Reply-To: <20111206172708.57b3cadc@resist.wooz.org> References: <4EDD4FCB.8040906@zone12.com> <20111205195356.31cdd2f5@resist.wooz.org> <20111206172708.57b3cadc@resist.wooz.org> Message-ID: <3756973A-E582-4A60-85DA-593387E0BA59@sussex.ac.uk> When a message comes from a Mailman mailing list, the headers carry far more useful identifying information than the From: header. In fact, the purported sender isn't in the From: header, it's in the List-ID: header. It would be better if mail clients (like Gmail's web client) would display this more prominently than the From header. Also, it would be good if lists DKIM signed messages with d= value matching the List-ID header. Then, the Gmail interface could indicate that the List-ID header was verified, but the From header wasn't. Now, if Gmail also prominently exposed the list-unsubscribe header, then the EU regulations on marketing messages would be satisfied. In my view, hiding the unsubscribe information in a menu isn't enough to satisfy the "easy to use" requirement, though it seems that Gmail does better than most vendors in this respect. Finally, if Mailman allowed users to choose whether to get the footer added, and subject munged, then Gmail users might avoid these issues anyway. Mailman might provide a list of domains for which this was the default behaviour, and site admins should be able to manage such a list. Mailman might even provide updates for this list. Of course, it's complicated: for example I use Gmail, but with a vanity domain. And then I use the IMAP interface with a client that doesn't expose list headers. My view is that a one-click setting to preserve DKIM might be useful, but it should carry a health warning saying something like: "If you're an organisation in the EU, and this list helps to promote your organisation, or keep people in touch with your organisation, then selecting this option may be in breach of your country's mail privacy laws." In fact, it may be illegal if you simply have a list subscriber in the EU. -- Ian Eiloart Postmaster, University of Sussex +44 (0) 1273 87-3148 From barry at list.org Thu Jan 5 16:46:32 2012 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 10:46:32 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] feature request: one-click setting to preserve DKIM In-Reply-To: <3756973A-E582-4A60-85DA-593387E0BA59@sussex.ac.uk> References: <4EDD4FCB.8040906@zone12.com> <20111205195356.31cdd2f5@resist.wooz.org> <20111206172708.57b3cadc@resist.wooz.org> <3756973A-E582-4A60-85DA-593387E0BA59@sussex.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20120105104632.4285cc7b@limelight.wooz.org> On Jan 04, 2012, at 01:23 PM, Ian Eiloart wrote: >Finally, if Mailman allowed users to choose whether to get the footer added, >and subject munged, then Gmail users might avoid these issues anyway. Of course, such level of option would require personalization, i.e. one message per recipient. Maybe for most sites (but not all) the decade-old economics that pushed us toward avoiding personalization by default has changed enough now. MM3's architecture is more conducive to loading more functionality into personalized delivery. What do you think about changing this default? -Barry From mmc at googlers.com Fri Jan 6 00:35:24 2012 From: mmc at googlers.com (Monica Chew) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 15:35:24 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] feature request: one-click setting to preserve DKIM In-Reply-To: <3756973A-E582-4A60-85DA-593387E0BA59@sussex.ac.uk> References: <4EDD4FCB.8040906@zone12.com> <20111205195356.31cdd2f5@resist.wooz.org> <20111206172708.57b3cadc@resist.wooz.org> <3756973A-E582-4A60-85DA-593387E0BA59@sussex.ac.uk> Message-ID: Hi Ian, On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:23 AM, Ian Eiloart wrote: > > When a message comes from a Mailman mailing list, the headers carry far more useful identifying information than the From: header. In fact, the purported sender isn't in the From: header, it's in the List-ID: header. It would be better if mail clients (like Gmail's web client) would display this more prominently than the From header. Also, it would be good if lists DKIM signed messages with d= value matching the List-ID header. > > Then, the Gmail interface could indicate that the List-ID header was verified, but the From header wasn't. I agree that mailing list management needs a serious overhaul in the UI, for Gmail and for other clients. > Now, if Gmail also prominently exposed the list-unsubscribe header, then the EU regulations on marketing messages would be satisfied. In my view, hiding the unsubscribe information in a menu isn't enough to satisfy the "easy to use" requirement, though it seems that Gmail does better than most vendors in this respect. The exposure is more than in the menu dropdown. If the message comes from a mailing list with good reputation, and the user clicks "Report spam", then Gmail offers to send an unsubscribe message to the mailto address in List-Unsubscribe. The reason we have the reputation check is that we do not want spammy senders to use the unsubscribe emails for list washing. http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/unsubscribing-made-easy.html > Finally, if Mailman allowed users to choose whether to get the footer added, and subject munged, then Gmail users might avoid these issues anyway. Mailman might provide a list of domains for which this was the default behaviour, and site admins should be able to manage such a list. Mailman might even provide updates for this list. Of course, it's complicated: for example I use Gmail, but with a vanity domain. And then I use the IMAP interface with a client that doesn't expose list headers. > > My view is that a one-click setting to preserve DKIM might be useful, but it should carry a health warning saying something like: "If you're an organisation in the EU, and this list helps to promote your organisation, or keep people in touch with your organisation, then selecting this option may be in breach of your country's mail privacy laws." In fact, it may be illegal if you simply have a list subscriber in the EU. Hmm, this seems difficult to enforce. How would I know if a list subscriber were in the EU? Even if the member address were obviously not hosted in the EU, it could easily forward to an EU address. Thanks, Monica From msk at cloudmark.com Fri Jan 6 01:20:43 2012 From: msk at cloudmark.com (Murray S. Kucherawy) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 16:20:43 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FW: [apps-discuss] Feedback on draft-moonesamy-rfc2369bis-01 and draft-moonesamy-rfc2919bis-01 Message-ID: This effort has been started inside the IETF. Does Mailman have any input it might like to contribute on updating either of these two drafts? I've already submitted an initial review of both to the apps-discuss list: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/apps-discuss/current/msg04039.html Perhaps this work could be combined with your desired effort to register all the unregistered email header fields you're currently using. -MSK -----Original Message----- From: apps-discuss-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces at ietf.org] On Behalf Of S Moonesamy Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 12:18 PM To: apps-discuss at ietf.org Subject: [apps-discuss] Feedback on draft-moonesamy-rfc2369bis-01 and draft-moonesamy-rfc2919bis-01 Hello, I would appreciate some feedback on draft-moonesamy-rfc2369bis-01 [1] and draft-moonesamy-rfc2919bis-01 [2]. The I-Ds are about the List- header fields. The changes from RFC 2369 are: o URL changed to URI o Replaced MTAs with mailing list managers in the sentence: "MTAs generating the header fields SHOULD". o Replaced MTAs with mailing list managers in the sentence: "MTAs MUST NOT insert whitespace within the brackets" in Section 2 o In Section 2, client application SHOULD ignore whitespace within brackets o Updated references o Added informative reference to RFC 5064 o Editorial changes o Removed Background Discussion The changes from RFC 2919 are: o Removed text about the domain name system and domain ownership in Section 2 o "localhost" replaced with "invalid" o Replaced MTAs with mailing list managers in the sentence: "MTAs MUST NOT insert whitespace within the brackets" in Section 3 o Case independence in Section 6 changed to case insensitivity for ASCII o Added a paragraph in the appendix about subject tags o Updated references o Editorial changes Regards, S. Moonesamy [1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moonesamy-rfc2369bis-01.txt [2] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moonesamy-rfc2919bis-01.txt _______________________________________________ apps-discuss mailing list apps-discuss at ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From mmc at googlers.com Fri Jan 6 01:32:51 2012 From: mmc at googlers.com (Monica Chew) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 16:32:51 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] feature request: one-click setting to preserve DKIM In-Reply-To: <20120105104632.4285cc7b@limelight.wooz.org> References: <4EDD4FCB.8040906@zone12.com> <20111205195356.31cdd2f5@resist.wooz.org> <20111206172708.57b3cadc@resist.wooz.org> <3756973A-E582-4A60-85DA-593387E0BA59@sussex.ac.uk> <20120105104632.4285cc7b@limelight.wooz.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 7:46 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > On Jan 04, 2012, at 01:23 PM, Ian Eiloart wrote: > >>Finally, if Mailman allowed users to choose whether to get the footer added, >>and subject munged, then Gmail users might avoid these issues anyway. > > Of course, such level of option would require personalization, i.e. one > message per recipient. ?Maybe for most sites (but not all) the decade-old > economics that pushed us toward avoiding personalization by default has > changed enough now. ?MM3's architecture is more conducive to loading more > functionality into personalized delivery. > > What do you think about changing this default? Are you suggesting changing the default to not munging the subject and adding the footer? I would be in favor, but also be interested in surveying mailman users to see how many use clients that offer no support for identifying or unsubscribing from mailing list mail. Thanks, Monica From barry at list.org Fri Jan 6 01:42:21 2012 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 19:42:21 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] feature request: one-click setting to preserve DKIM In-Reply-To: References: <4EDD4FCB.8040906@zone12.com> <20111205195356.31cdd2f5@resist.wooz.org> <20111206172708.57b3cadc@resist.wooz.org> <3756973A-E582-4A60-85DA-593387E0BA59@sussex.ac.uk> <20120105104632.4285cc7b@limelight.wooz.org> Message-ID: <20120105194221.6d648bb3@resist.wooz.org> On Jan 05, 2012, at 04:32 PM, Monica Chew wrote: >On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 7:46 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote: >> On Jan 04, 2012, at 01:23 PM, Ian Eiloart wrote: >> >>>Finally, if Mailman allowed users to choose whether to get the footer added, >>>and subject munged, then Gmail users might avoid these issues anyway. >> >> Of course, such level of option would require personalization, i.e. one >> message per recipient. ?Maybe for most sites (but not all) the decade-old >> economics that pushed us toward avoiding personalization by default has >> changed enough now. ?MM3's architecture is more conducive to loading more >> functionality into personalized delivery. >> >> What do you think about changing this default? > >Are you suggesting changing the default to not munging the subject and >adding the footer? I would be in favor, but also be interested in >surveying mailman users to see how many use clients that offer no >support for identifying or unsubscribing from mailing list mail. Actually, I was asking about the default for personalized vs. non-personalized delivery. Right now, the default is to send all users the same copy of the message (with some configurable batching sizes) in order to reduce network bandwidth, i.e. non-personalized. By switching to personalization by default, we can enable VERP by default, personalized footers, etc. Personalization would allow for giving users more choices about subject munging, footer adding, etc. but of course it would consume more network bandwidth and server resources to stitch together individualized messages. Cheers, -Barry From msk at cloudmark.com Fri Jan 6 02:03:06 2012 From: msk at cloudmark.com (Murray S. Kucherawy) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 17:03:06 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] feature request: one-click setting to preserve DKIM In-Reply-To: <20120105194221.6d648bb3@resist.wooz.org> References: <4EDD4FCB.8040906@zone12.com> <20111205195356.31cdd2f5@resist.wooz.org> <20111206172708.57b3cadc@resist.wooz.org> <3756973A-E582-4A60-85DA-593387E0BA59@sussex.ac.uk> <20120105104632.4285cc7b@limelight.wooz.org> <20120105194221.6d648bb3@resist.wooz.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: mailman-developers-bounces+msk=cloudmark.com at python.org [mailto:mailman-developers-bounces+msk=cloudmark.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Barry Warsaw > Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 4:42 PM > To: mailman-developers at python.org > Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] feature request: one-click setting to preserve DKIM > > Actually, I was asking about the default for personalized vs. non- > personalized delivery. Right now, the default is to send all users the > same copy of the message (with some configurable batching sizes) in > order to reduce network bandwidth, i.e. non-personalized. By switching > to personalization by default, we can enable VERP by default, > personalized footers, etc. Personalization would allow for giving > users more choices about subject munging, footer adding, etc. but of > course it would consume more network bandwidth and server resources to > stitch together individualized messages. A little optimization is possible in that scenario, namely the cross product of all the possible munging options that the current subscriber list has enabled. I don't know how easy or hard that might be to code in mailman, but I imagine it's possible. From barry at list.org Fri Jan 6 02:22:48 2012 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 20:22:48 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] feature request: one-click setting to preserve DKIM In-Reply-To: References: <4EDD4FCB.8040906@zone12.com> <20111205195356.31cdd2f5@resist.wooz.org> <20111206172708.57b3cadc@resist.wooz.org> <3756973A-E582-4A60-85DA-593387E0BA59@sussex.ac.uk> <20120105104632.4285cc7b@limelight.wooz.org> <20120105194221.6d648bb3@resist.wooz.org> Message-ID: <20120105202248.01cb9d47@resist.wooz.org> On Jan 05, 2012, at 05:03 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: >> Actually, I was asking about the default for personalized vs. non- >> personalized delivery. Right now, the default is to send all users the >> same copy of the message (with some configurable batching sizes) in >> order to reduce network bandwidth, i.e. non-personalized. By switching >> to personalization by default, we can enable VERP by default, >> personalized footers, etc. Personalization would allow for giving >> users more choices about subject munging, footer adding, etc. but of >> course it would consume more network bandwidth and server resources to >> stitch together individualized messages. > >A little optimization is possible in that scenario, namely the cross product >of all the possible munging options that the current subscriber list has >enabled. I don't know how easy or hard that might be to code in mailman, but >I imagine it's possible. Possibly, but it depends on the level of individualization. If you're doing VERP or personalized footers you pretty much have to send one message per user. -Barry From msk at cloudmark.com Fri Jan 6 04:35:22 2012 From: msk at cloudmark.com (Murray S. Kucherawy) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 19:35:22 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] feature request: one-click setting to preserve DKIM In-Reply-To: <20120105202248.01cb9d47@resist.wooz.org> References: <4EDD4FCB.8040906@zone12.com> <20111205195356.31cdd2f5@resist.wooz.org> <20111206172708.57b3cadc@resist.wooz.org> <3756973A-E582-4A60-85DA-593387E0BA59@sussex.ac.uk> <20120105104632.4285cc7b@limelight.wooz.org> <20120105194221.6d648bb3@resist.wooz.org> <20120105202248.01cb9d47@resist.wooz.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: mailman-developers-bounces+msk=cloudmark.com at python.org [mailto:mailman-developers-bounces+msk=cloudmark.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Barry Warsaw > Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 5:23 PM > To: mailman-developers at python.org > Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] feature request: one-click setting to preserve DKIM > > Possibly, but it depends on the level of individualization. If you're > doing VERP or personalized footers you pretty much have to send one > message per user. Ah, quite right. I was only thinking of content variants, and didn't consider what VERP imposes. (Granted the body would be largely static, but you still have one envelope per recipient.) From marc at let.de Sat Jan 7 15:25:06 2012 From: marc at let.de (=?UTF-8?Q?=22Marc_Manthey_=28macbroadcast_=EF=A3=BF=29=22?=) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 15:25:06 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman gone social ? Message-ID: <59C89061-C97C-4AFA-99EF-A3404BAAD823@let.de> hello everybody apologize for my posting to this list, but i would like to share an idea i had some time ago. Most of us are subscribted to several mailinglists, forums , irc and using socialmedia sites like facebook and/ or twitter. Would?nt it be a great idea if there was a mailman plugin whitch post automaticily to a facebook fanpage/profile or group or s special twitter account to share this information ? Right now i go the the mailinglist archive of mailman, find the message i would like to share, use an url shortener of my choice , keep the headline and tweet it. Would?nt it be cool if this would be automated ? Is there a way todo this or are you guys planing something like this in the future ? Thanks for reading Marc -- Les enfants teribbles - research / deployment Marc Manthey- Vogelsangerstrasse 97 50823 K?ln - Germany Tel.:0049-221-29891489 Mobil:0049-1577-3329231 web: http://let.de project : http://stattfernsehen.com twitter: http://twitter.com/macbroadcast/ facebook: http://www.facebook.com/opencu Please think about your responsibility towards our environment: Each printed e-mail causes about 0.3 grams of CO2 per page. Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk Sun Jan 8 18:09:28 2012 From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 17:09:28 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman gone social ? In-Reply-To: <59C89061-C97C-4AFA-99EF-A3404BAAD823@let.de> References: <59C89061-C97C-4AFA-99EF-A3404BAAD823@let.de> Message-ID: <20120108170928.GZ4423@hendricks.amyl.org.uk> On Sat, Jan 07, 2012 at 03:25:06PM +0100, "Marc Manthey (macbroadcast ?)" wrote: > Most of us are subscribted to several mailinglists, forums , irc and > using socialmedia sites like facebook and/ or twitter. > > Would?nt it be a great idea if there was a mailman plugin whitch post > automaticily to a facebook fanpage/profile or group > or s special twitter account to share this information ? I'm not convined that a plugin is needed (for Mailman 2); more third-party functionality; perhaps something that could be integrated within MM3, though (http://code.google.com/p/python-tumblr/ exists: I've not used it, and passwords rather than tokens puts me off it.) One of my instances use something based on http://codex.wordpress.org/Post_to_your_blog_using_email to get from list -> blog. I'd imagine that something could similarily post to facebook/twitter, maybe linkedin, using their APIs: a problem could be formatting, though. I think, really, those are best handled as complimentary to the email. > Right now i go the the mailinglist archive of mailman, find the message i > would like to share, use an url shortener of my choice , keep the > headline and tweet it. That could all be done through a (cron'd) script. An exercise, left down to the reader :o) > Would?nt it be cool if this would be automated ? Is there a way todo > this or are you guys planing something like this in the future ? If I wanted to tweet, automatically, I'd use cron, or if feeling perverse, even procmail/an action in a sieve filter. For Wordpress, we use the email -> blog feature, and tidy-up manually (which takes a bit of time: I've often wondered if it would be quicker to do manually). For Facebook, it'd probably be easier to syndicate the content from elsewhere, or do it via the API (which seems to change each time I have to dip in to it). I've not had a reason/want to use the LinkedIn API. If I were doing this now, I'd just use Tumblr: http://www.tumblr.com/docs/(en|de)/integration http://www.tumblr.com/docs/(en|de)/api/v2#posting http://www.tumblr.com/docs/(en|de)/email_publishing -- "Get me a beer. I don't care what kind it is, just get me a beer!" -- Duke of Edinburgh, on being offered the finest Italian wines by PM Giuliano Amato at a dinner in Rome in 2000. From msk at cloudmark.com Mon Jan 9 23:53:37 2012 From: msk at cloudmark.com (Murray S. Kucherawy) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 14:53:37 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] draft-kucherawy-received-state Message-ID: Hi all, Over on ietf-smtp, https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kucherawy-received-state/ was developed late last year. This is an optional tweak to email Received fields allowing annotation of entry into special states of mail handling, such as quarantines or hold-for-moderation MLM actions that would help to explain large gaps in timestamp sequences. I'm looking for a wider audience of reviewers and (hopefully) supporters. If this sort of thing seems like a good (or terrible) idea, please do follow up and comment on one of these IETF lists: apps-discuss: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss ietf-822: http://www.imc.org/ietf-822/ ietf-smtp: http://www.imc.org/ietf-smtp/index.html How much and what kind of support is evident will guide the choice of what its next steps are (if any). Thanks, -MSK From barry at list.org Tue Jan 10 10:00:49 2012 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 10:00:49 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman gone social ? In-Reply-To: <59C89061-C97C-4AFA-99EF-A3404BAAD823@let.de> References: <59C89061-C97C-4AFA-99EF-A3404BAAD823@let.de> Message-ID: <20120110100049.3bff40ef@rivendell> On Jan 07, 2012, at 03:25 PM, Marc Manthey (macbroadcast ?) wrote: >Most of us are subscribted to several mailinglists, forums , irc andusing >socialmedia sites like facebook and/ or twitter. I've long thought that there are enough overlaps with mailing lists, archives, and forums and I think that there are some interesting things we could do here. In my mind the difference is based on the depth of the emotional connection you have to the community. For example, with python-dev I have a deep and long-term connection to it, so I'm happy to subscribe and get my inbox filled with messages from it. But for something like dbus, I care deeply but only for a short amount of time. I.e. when I'm working in that area, I need to interact with that community, but then I'm out. The overhead of subscribing and unsubscribing is too much. Gmane helps a lot here, as does some of the techniques we implemented in Mailman's integration in Launchpad, and I'm keeping this in mind during MM3 development. Certainly, MM3 has the APIs that should make it fairly easy to integrate these types of media in both directions, so I encourage folks to explore these ideas. Cheers, -Barry From iane at sussex.ac.uk Tue Jan 10 16:23:31 2012 From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:23:31 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] feature request: one-click setting to preserve DKIM In-Reply-To: References: <4EDD4FCB.8040906@zone12.com> <20111205195356.31cdd2f5@resist.wooz.org> <20111206172708.57b3cadc@resist.wooz.org> <3756973A-E582-4A60-85DA-593387E0BA59@sussex.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 5 Jan 2012, at 23:35, Monica Chew wrote: > Hi Ian, > > On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:23 AM, Ian Eiloart wrote: >> ? ... > >> Now, if Gmail also prominently exposed the list-unsubscribe header, then the EU regulations on marketing messages would be satisfied. In my view, hiding the unsubscribe information in a menu isn't enough to satisfy the "easy to use" requirement, though it seems that Gmail does better than most vendors in this respect. > > The exposure is more than in the menu dropdown. If the message comes > from a mailing list with good reputation, and the user clicks "Report > spam", then Gmail offers to send an unsubscribe message to the mailto > address in List-Unsubscribe. The reason we have the reputation check > is that we do not want spammy senders to use the unsubscribe emails > for list washing. > > http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/unsubscribing-made-easy.html That strikes me as very odd. Actually, awful. This will encourage users to think that the way to unsubscribe from a mailing list is to hit the "report spam" button. That's really bad news for responsible list providers. It's bad because when those same users go to another client (perhaps they've been asked for advice by a hotmail user, for example), they'll hit "report spam" and generate a spam report without getting the opportunity to unsubscribe. The two options need to be separately identified at the top level of the interface. >> Finally, if Mailman allowed users to choose whether to get the footer added, and subject munged, then Gmail users might avoid these issues anyway. Mailman might provide a list of domains for which this was the default behaviour, and site admins should be able to manage such a list. Mailman might even provide updates for this list. Of course, it's complicated: for example I use Gmail, but with a vanity domain. And then I use the IMAP interface with a client that doesn't expose list headers. >> >> My view is that a one-click setting to preserve DKIM might be useful, but it should carry a health warning saying something like: "If you're an organisation in the EU, and this list helps to promote your organisation, or keep people in touch with your organisation, then selecting this option may be in breach of your country's mail privacy laws." In fact, it may be illegal if you simply have a list subscriber in the EU. > > Hmm, this seems difficult to enforce. How would I know if a list > subscriber were in the EU? Even if the member address were obviously > not hosted in the EU, it could easily forward to an EU address. Good question. The best thing is to assume there is an EU subscriber. It's good practice, in any case, to include an unsubscribe option with all marketing messages. However, things will change when the list-unsubscribe header is exposed to most users, in a way that makes it easy for them to unsubscribe. So, if Outlook, Apple Mail, Thunderbird, Hotmail, Gmail, and Yahoo were to get this right, then it would be reasonable to *only* provide list-unsubscribe. > Thanks, > Monica -- Ian Eiloart Postmaster, University of Sussex +44 (0) 1273 87-3148 From stephen at xemacs.org Wed Jan 11 06:41:45 2012 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:41:45 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman gone social ? In-Reply-To: <20120110100049.3bff40ef@rivendell> References: <59C89061-C97C-4AFA-99EF-A3404BAAD823@let.de> <20120110100049.3bff40ef@rivendell> Message-ID: <87ehv6aj8m.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Barry Warsaw writes: > On Jan 07, 2012, at 03:25 PM, Marc Manthey (macbroadcast ?) wrote: > > >Most of us are subscribted to several mailinglists, forums , irc andusing > >socialmedia sites like facebook and/ or twitter. > > I've long thought that there are enough overlaps with mailing > lists, archives, and forums and I think that there are some > interesting things we could do here. I disagree, philosophically. Automatically reposting to different primary publication channels smells of spam to me. The interesting things to be done are in content aggregation (ie, "smart pull" media), but Mailman is a "push" medium. This is pure opinion; I don't at all expect everybody to agree, but I wanted to express the point of view. From syssup at sussex.ac.uk Wed Jan 11 13:53:00 2012 From: syssup at sussex.ac.uk (Systems Support) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:53:00 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] hostname -s Message-ID: <80417516-3BC8-4F1D-ADBA-60668AABF429@sussex.ac.uk> Hmm, It turns out that "hostname -s" does very different things on linux and solaris hosts. On linux, it harmlessly reports the hostname, without qualifying it. On solaris, it silently changes the host name to "-s". This seems to cause Mailman to start throwing away mail, with error messages like " Low level smtp error: (8, 'node name or service name not known'), msgid: xxxx" Now, this difference in behaviour, between harmless and bizarre, is the stuff of the Unix-haters' handbook http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/unix-haters/preface.html However, It seems to me pretty disastrous that Mailman should throw away mail just because its own hostname changed. -- Ian Eiloart Postmaster, University of Sussex +44 (0) 1273 87-3148 From mark at msapiro.net Wed Jan 11 17:48:39 2012 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 08:48:39 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] hostname -s In-Reply-To: <80417516-3BC8-4F1D-ADBA-60668AABF429@sussex.ac.uk> Message-ID: Systems Support wrote: > >It turns out that "hostname -s" does very different things on linux and solaris hosts. On linux, it harmlessly reports the hostname, without qualifying it. On solaris, it silently changes the host name to "-s". This seems to cause Mailman to start throwing away mail, with error messages like " Low level smtp error: (8, 'node name or service name not known'), msgid: xxxx" > >Now, this difference in behaviour, between harmless and bizarre, is the stuff of the Unix-haters' handbook http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/unix-haters/preface.html > >However, It seems to me pretty disastrous that Mailman should throw away mail just because its own hostname changed. The errors you report are from the Python smtplib module used by Mailman to send mail. See the FAQs at and for a little more info. If you believe the smtplib errors are not valid in this case, it is a Python smtplib issue and would need to be addressed there. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From barry at list.org Mon Jan 16 16:13:37 2012 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:13:37 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fw: About Tokio Kikuchi Message-ID: <20120116101337.25110084@limelight.wooz.org> I'm sorry to forward some very sad news about one of our own from the Mailman community. If you've ever looked at the ACKNOWLEDGMENTS file you will see this entry in the core contributors section: Tokio Kikuchi, Mailman's weatherman Tokio Kikuchi was instrumental in our early internationalization efforts. I remember testing out one of his early patches which enabled Japanese support in Mailman. At a Python conference years ago, I started the branch and was delighted to see the familiar Mailman admin pages come up in Japanese. Of course, I could not read it, but I happened to be sitting next to a native speaker who confirmed that it was indeed correct Japanese. That made me very happy, and I'm proud of his ongoing contributions to Mailman in general and internationalization in particular. He will be missed. If you would like to leave a note of your own, please see this page: http://wiki.list.org/display/COM/TokioKikuchi The following is forwarded with permission. -Barry Begin forwarded message: Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:22:43 +0900 From: Atsuo Ishimoto To: barry at python.org Subject: About Tokio Kikuchi Hello, I'm Japanese Python developer. You can see my name as an anuthor of Python's PEP 3138. Now, please let me inform you that Mr. Tokio Kikuchi, famous open source developer and one of Mailman contributor, died at 14, Jan by cancer. http://www.kochinews.co.jp/?&nwSrl=284270&nwIW=1&nwVt=knd Regards, -- Atsuo Ishimoto Mail: ishimoto at gembook.org Blog: http://d.hatena.ne.jp/atsuoishimoto/ Twitter: atsuoishimoto -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ishikawa at yk.rim.or.jp Wed Jan 18 16:35:58 2012 From: ishikawa at yk.rim.or.jp (ISHIKAWA,chiaki) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:35:58 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Announce] Fw: About Tokio Kikuchi In-Reply-To: <20120116101337.25110084@limelight.wooz.org> References: <20120116101337.25110084@limelight.wooz.org> Message-ID: <4F16E6DE.9000805@yk.rim.or.jp> I am a user of mailman. Never figured out why Mr. Kikuchi called himself a weatherman until now. Thanks to the newspaper page (URL quoted) I searched his name in Japanese characters. I found that he was trained as scientist, and spent one year in an antarctic base as a member of Japan's 26th expedition to the region. He was involved in study of the climate of snowy cold regions near the north and south poles until his retirement from Kochi University. Weatherman. He will be missed. (2012/01/17 0:13), Barry Warsaw wrote: > I'm sorry to forward some very sad news about one of our own from the Mailman > community. If you've ever looked at the ACKNOWLEDGMENTS file you will see > this entry in the core contributors section: > > Tokio Kikuchi, Mailman's weatherman > > Tokio Kikuchi was instrumental in our early internationalization efforts. I > remember testing out one of his early patches which enabled Japanese support > in Mailman. At a Python conference years ago, I started the branch and was > delighted to see the familiar Mailman admin pages come up in Japanese. Of > course, I could not read it, but I happened to be sitting next to a native > speaker who confirmed that it was indeed correct Japanese. That made me very > happy, and I'm proud of his ongoing contributions to Mailman in general and > internationalization in particular. He will be missed. > > If you would like to leave a note of your own, please see this page: > > http://wiki.list.org/display/COM/TokioKikuchi > > The following is forwarded with permission. > > -Barry > > Begin forwarded message: > > Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:22:43 +0900 > From: Atsuo Ishimoto > To: barry at python.org > Subject: About Tokio Kikuchi > > > Hello, > > I'm Japanese Python developer. You can see my name as an anuthor of > Python's PEP 3138. > > Now, please let me inform you that Mr. Tokio Kikuchi, famous open > source developer and one of Mailman contributor, died at 14, Jan by > cancer. > > http://www.kochinews.co.jp/?&nwSrl=284270&nwIW=1&nwVt=knd > > Regards, > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mailman-announce mailing list > Mailman-announce at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-announce > Member address: ishikawa at yk.rim.or.jp > Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-announce/ishikawa%40yk.rim.or.jp From gmayes at uoregon.edu Fri Jan 20 20:51:56 2012 From: gmayes at uoregon.edu (Geoff Mayes) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 19:51:56 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM3 testing report and beta timelines Message-ID: <6312F7735995824DBDF26DF3C332CCDE713FD2@ad-cc-mbx01> Hello, I was wondering how stable/reliable MM3 is at this point. Does anyone know (subjectively or objectively) how much testing it has received in the wild? How much internal testing has it gone through apart from the wonderful unit tests I've read about? According to Barry's alpha8 release announcement, it sounds like now is the time to start using it, so does that mean you all, as developers, consider it stable and ready to be put into production by large organizations? What are the hopes and/or realistic plans for the beta period and GA? Very curious, and thanks for any info, Geoff Mayes From gmayes at uoregon.edu Fri Jan 20 21:41:06 2012 From: gmayes at uoregon.edu (Geoff Mayes) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:41:06 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM3 testing report and beta timelines In-Reply-To: <6312F7735995824DBDF26DF3C332CCDE713FD2@ad-cc-mbx01> References: <6312F7735995824DBDF26DF3C332CCDE713FD2@ad-cc-mbx01> Message-ID: <6312F7735995824DBDF26DF3C332CCDE714017@ad-cc-mbx01> Barry already answered many of these questions in response to a previous post I sent to mailman-users. Thank you Barry! I'm going to copy the relevant parts of Barry's response here to save other's time in responding: > -----Original Message----- > From: mailman-users-bounces+gmayes=uoregon.edu at python.org > [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+gmayes=uoregon.edu at python.org] On > Behalf Of Barry Warsaw > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 12:09 PM > To: mailman-users at python.org > Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Thoughts about migrating to Mailman instead > of Sympa (from Majordomo) > As for mm3 release, well, I think now that I'll be giving a talk at Pycon 2012 on > it, I *have* to release it before then! There are two blockers, that I am > attempting to solve before going into beta. 1) the REST API needs an > authentication/authorization framework; 2) we need some kind of schema > migration approach. Come on over to mailman-developers@ if you want to > participate. > > I know there is at least one site using mm3 in production today. I have some > patches that need to be applied to improve the API performance, but I'm > confident the core engine is pretty solid. > > Nothing can replace actual field testing under real world conditions, but I'm > pretty confident about the core engine. As I mentioned above, one way or > another it has to go to beta before Pycon. :) > > -Barry > -----Original Message----- > From: mailman-developers-bounces+gmayes=uoregon.edu at python.org > [mailto:mailman-developers-bounces+gmayes=uoregon.edu at python.org] > On Behalf Of Geoff Mayes > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 11:52 AM > To: mailman-developers at python.org > Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM3 testing report and beta timelines > > Hello, > > I was wondering how stable/reliable MM3 is at this point. Does anyone > know (subjectively or objectively) how much testing it has received in the > wild? How much internal testing has it gone through apart from the > wonderful unit tests I've read about? According to Barry's alpha8 release > announcement, it sounds like now is the time to start using it, so does that > mean you all, as developers, consider it stable and ready to be put into > production by large organizations? > > What are the hopes and/or realistic plans for the beta period and GA? > > Very curious, and thanks for any info, > > Geoff Mayes > _______________________________________________ > Mailman-Developers mailing list > Mailman-Developers at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: > http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman- > developers/gmayes%40uoregon.edu > > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 From barry at list.org Wed Jan 25 16:19:26 2012 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:19:26 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GNU Mailman sprint at Pycon 2012 Message-ID: <20120125101926.78087ab0@resist.wooz.org> Hey folks, it looks like we're going to have a quorum of core developers at Pycon 2012 in Santa Clara, so we will definitely be sprinting on Mailman 3. We'll be primarily working on the integration of the core engine with the official Django-based web ui. If you want to participate, kibbitz, or just learn more about MM3, I highly encourage you to join us. Remember, the Pycon sprints are free and you do not need to register for the conference to attend. Please do sign up on this page if you're going to join us though, so we can plan sprint room sizes and such: https://us.pycon.org/2012/community/sprints/projects/ If you haven't been to a Pycon before though, I highly recommend it. There are tons of great speakers and presentations, some great tutorials before the conference starts, and always excellent BoFs and other events. Attendance is capped at 1500 though, so if you're thinking about it, JFDI already! :) -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: not available URL: