From sophron at latthi.com Thu Aug 2 11:13:13 2012 From: sophron at latthi.com (George Chatzisofroniou) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 12:13:13 +0300 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Event notifications Message-ID: Hello everyone, There is a mechanism that is not in place yet and thus some features of my metrics app can't be used. I would like to mention it as feature request. Of' course i'd like to help on its implementation. It looks like the only notification the core provides is that of new postings (through the IArchiver interface). It would be great if core could provide notifications for more events (like someone subscribed or a new thread started) that also carry more information (for postings: number of recipients and message size). I think most of this information would be helpful for other plugins (like HyperKitty) as well. So, what i suggest is basically a message bus that components can register for notifications. I'm not sure if this has been discussed before and is already in the plans. Thanks for your time, -- George Chatzisofroniou sophron.latthi.com From rnix at squarewave.at Fri Aug 3 16:55:53 2012 From: rnix at squarewave.at (Robert Niederreiter) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 16:55:53 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM3 - preventing command summary by email Message-ID: <501BE679.1020701@squarewave.at> Hi, Is there a way to disable command summary sent by mail? e.g. after subscription and subscription confirmation. Thanks, Robert -- Robert Niederreiter Squarewave Computing Aflingerstra?e 19 A-6176 V?ls Tel: +43 699 160 20 192 Web: http://www.squarewave.at From barry at list.org Fri Aug 3 19:47:55 2012 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 13:47:55 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM3 - preventing command summary by email In-Reply-To: <501BE679.1020701@squarewave.at> References: <501BE679.1020701@squarewave.at> Message-ID: <20120803134755.704bf0b9@resist.wooz.org> On Aug 03, 2012, at 04:55 PM, Robert Niederreiter wrote: >Is there a way to disable command summary sent by mail? e.g. after >subscription and subscription confirmation. Not currently. Why do you want to suppress the results? -Barry From sophron at latthi.com Mon Aug 6 19:28:31 2012 From: sophron at latthi.com (George Chatzisofroniou) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 20:28:31 +0300 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Implementing the IArchiver In-Reply-To: <20120720101437.06a94b16@limelight.wooz.org> References: <20120720101437.06a94b16@limelight.wooz.org> Message-ID: Hi, I was wondering what is the best way to test an IArchive implementation. Are there any built in test modes that will allow me to send sample messages? I only care about the processing of the messages through my IArchive implementation rather than actually sending them out. Thanks again, -- George Chatzisofroniou sophron.latthi.com From sophron at latthi.com Tue Aug 14 00:38:36 2012 From: sophron at latthi.com (George Chatzisofroniou) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 01:38:36 +0300 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [GSoC 2012] Metrics In-Reply-To: References: <20120505162628.4fed030f@limelight.wooz.org> <87zk94pekc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20120519125944.696eea9e@resist.wooz.org> <20120707230322.GB17663@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello, This is probably my last report. Any comments about the project are very appreciated. :) ---- GSoC is almost over and i just pushed all the work i?ve done these three months. It was one of the greatest experiences and i?ve learned a ton of stuff. I feel proud of my work and i can?t wait to see it used in Mailman working environments. For those who don?t know what is all about, a live demo of the app exists here [1]. The code is hosted in Launchpad [2] and if you are interested to learn more, i would suggest you start reading the documentation, from the installation [3], to metrics collector [4] and metrics display [5]. To learn even more about the functionality of the app, please check the tests that lie in the ?test app? directory for each submodule. I would like to thank Wacky (a great mentor) and the rest of Mailman developers for their help. Mailman has a great community and of course i?ll stay here for anything regarding improvements of my app or anything else Mailman-related. [1]: http://sophron.latthi.com/metrics/ [2]: https://code.launchpad.net/~sophron/mm3-metrics/trunk [3]: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sophron/mm3-metrics/trunk/view/head:/installation.rst [4]: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sophron/mm3-metrics/trunk/view/head:/MM3_metrics_collector/__init__.py [5]: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sophron/mm3-metrics/trunk/view/head:/MM3_metrics_display/templatetags/__init__.py ---- -- George Chatzisofroniou sophron.latthi.com From syst3m.w0rm at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 07:08:42 2012 From: syst3m.w0rm at gmail.com (Aamir Khan) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:38:42 +0530 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [GSoC 2012] HyperKitty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi! We have reached the end of GSoC. I have pushed all the code to bzr repo. There are tworepositories, one is django application [1] and other one is django standalone project [2]. It's almost the same way postorius manages it's code in two separate repositories. I never worked with django before GSoC. It was one of the greatest learning experience for me. I learnt a lot about Django. When GSoC started the code of HyperKitty was very raw and many things were hard coded (urls) and there was no clear code structure. During my GSoC project I have implemented features in HyperKitty as well as tried to fix these problems. We now have a clear code structure, app is separate from project, urls are not hard coded, unit tests are there in place. Though, HyperKitty is a big project and we are not close to any release candidate yet, there are essential features missing from HyperKitty for example we have to connect it to MM3, plug KittyStore to MM3, cleaner UI. As always you can check the demo here [3]. (We are aware of the issue that it throws 500 errors a lot of times :( ) I would like to thank pingou, toshio and the rest of Mailman community for their help. As my school year had started I won't be able to work full time on this project but I will keep pushing changes to HyperKitty when I will have free time. [1]: bzr.fedorahosted.org/bzr/hyperkitty/hyperkitty [2]: http://bzr.fedorahosted.org/bzr/hyperkitty/hk-app [3]: mm3test.fedoraproject.org On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 5:22 AM, Aamir Khan wrote: > Hi, > > It has been some time since the last update about HyperKitty. I have > deployed[1] the latest code at mm3test.fedoraproject.org for everyone to > take a look. Please file any bugs/missing features here[2] > > HyperKitty offer features like upvoting/downvoting of messages, adding > tags (to be implemented soon!) to threads, user profiles and other user > specific features. We require users to be logged in before using any of > these features. So, the first task for my GSoC project was to implement > login procedure for hyperkitty. It uses django-social-auth application [3] > to implement login functionality. Currently, there are four ways of logging > into hyperkitty test server namely, Google openid, yahoo openid, browserid, > and registering the user on the site itself. I have not enabled other ways > of logging in (e.g, twitter) but it should be fairly easy to enable those. > > I have written a blog post about the essential features an archiver should > posses[4] in my opinion. The second most important thing for me is the > ability to promote good content posted on the list. An archiver should be > intelligent enough to suppress the "spamy" content and bring good content > on the surface. For this we have implemented a feature in which a user can > upvote/downvote a message. The users accessing a particular thread will be > able to sort the messages based on votes of other users. > > I have also implemented the basic user profiles in which you can see your > personal info and the messages you rated. You will be able to edit the user > profiles soon. > > I have also started to write unit tests [5]. > > > Best regards, > Aamir > > > [1] > http://blog.aamirkhan.co.in/post/26723715431/deploying-hyperkitty-using-apache-wsgi > [2] https://fedorahosted.org/hyperkitty/ > [3] https://github.com/omab/django-social-auth > [4] > http://blog.aamirkhan.co.in/post/26555164201/hyperkitty-modern-archiver > [5] http://blog.aamirkhan.co.in/post/26723628968/unit-testing-hyperkitty > -- Aamir Khan | 3rd Year | Computer Science & Engineering | IIT Roorkee From barry at list.org Thu Aug 16 03:32:31 2012 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 21:32:31 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Implementing the IArchiver In-Reply-To: References: <20120720101437.06a94b16@limelight.wooz.org> Message-ID: <20120815213231.649a82b6@resist.wooz.org> Hi George. Sorry I was on vacation and mostly off-line. On Aug 06, 2012, at 08:28 PM, George Chatzisofroniou wrote: >I was wondering what is the best way to test an IArchive >implementation. Are there any built in test modes that will allow me >to send sample messages? I only care about the processing of the >messages through my IArchive implementation rather than actually >sending them out. There is an existing test in src/mailman/archiving/tests/test_prototype.py which tests the prototype archiver. It probably does way more than you need though, since it interfaces with the file system. But it should give you a fairly decent idea of how to set up a test for an IArchiver implementation. A few important things to notice. You'll need to set a layer in the test class. ConfigLayer ensures that the entire ZCA and configuration subsystem is initialized before the test is run; you'll need at least that. If you do want to send out a sample message, you can use SMTPLayer, which sets up a fake SMTP server and ensures that any email you send through Mailman's delivery system will get delivered to this fake server. Your test can then check that the message arrived and has the contents you expect. If you grep for SMTPLayer, you should find useful examples of that. See src/mailman/testing/layers.py for the set of existing layers. Their use is a bit funky because of the weird zope.testing semantics (something I want to get rid of eventually). In particular, normal inheritance rules don't apply, which is why you never see upcalls to super(). But that may be detail you don't care about. I hope that helps. I'm back from vacation now and happy to answer anything else if I can. Cheers, -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From devlists at irrtum.com Sun Aug 19 16:50:37 2012 From: devlists at irrtum.com (Peter Holzer) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:50:37 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM3 - preventing command summary by email Message-ID: Hi I'm working with Robert on a newsletter project where we want to use Mailman 3 Therefore we'll use a moderated list to send out content to the subscribers. In my opinion or at least for our usecase it doesn't make much sense to send 2 mails to the subscriber, one that tells the user "Confirmation email sent" and sending a mail to the user that he should confirm his email address. If the command is successful, at least when there is only one command executed, it should be enough to send the actual result of the command. Would that be reasonable to make that configurable? Where would be the right place to hook in and at least prevent such "double" send outs? One other thing, I think it would be nice to have the actual list name in the subject of the action mails, for example "MyMailinglist confirm 66c0886...." instead of confirm 66c0886...." and it wouldn't interfere with the actual commands being executed as far as i could test it. How about adding this to mailman3 core and where to add it? Peter -------------------------------- agitator - webl?sungen Peter Holzer Sumatrastrasse 25 CH-8006 Z?rich Tel. +41 43 544 08 85 http://www.agitator.com > Fri, 03 Aug 2012 10:48:46 -0700 > > On Aug 03, 2012, at 04:55 PM, Robert Niederreiter wrote: > > >Is there a way to disable command summary sent by mail? e.g. after > >subscription and subscription confirmation. > > Not currently. Why do you want to suppress the results? > > -Barry From barry at list.org Sun Aug 19 23:08:07 2012 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 17:08:07 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM3 - preventing command summary by email In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120819170807.7180d8f4@resist.wooz.org> On Aug 19, 2012, at 04:50 PM, Peter Holzer wrote: >In my opinion or at least for our usecase it doesn't make much sense to send >2 mails to the subscriber, one that tells the user "Confirmation email sent" >and sending a mail to the user that he should confirm his email address. If >the command is successful, at least when there is only one command executed, >it should be enough to send the actual result of the command. > >Would that be reasonable to make that configurable? Yes, I think so. >Where would be the right place to hook in and at least prevent such "double" >send outs? The place to hook this in would be in the CommandRunner src/mailman/runners/command.py If you look down near the bottom of _dispose(), you'll see where the reply is created from a UserNotification(), then at the very bottom, it's sent. The hypothetical flag controlling this would just skip all that to prevent the results from being sent. The question is how controllable would this need to be? Presumably, the IMailingList itself would have a flag turning this off, e.g. `send_command_results`. If you do end up taking a crack at this, please open a bug and attach a branch. Ideally, it would have a unittest or doctest, and it will have to go through a schema migration, but I can help with that. >One other thing, I think it would be nice to have the actual list name in the >subject of the action mails, for example "MyMailinglist confirm 66c0886...." >instead of confirm 66c0886...." and it wouldn't interfere with the actual >commands being executed as far as i could test it. How about adding this to >mailman3 core and where to add it? This will also take some more elaborate processing in the eml_confirm.py command. I think there are enough hints in the confirmation message to know which mailing list it's coming from, but if not, please submit a separate bug on this (and a separate branch if you work on a fix). Cheers, -Barry From rnix at squarewave.at Mon Aug 20 08:29:40 2012 From: rnix at squarewave.at (Robert Niederreiter) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 08:29:40 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM3 - preventing command summary by email In-Reply-To: <20120819170807.7180d8f4@resist.wooz.org> References: <20120819170807.7180d8f4@resist.wooz.org> Message-ID: <5031D954.3060600@squarewave.at> Hi, On 19.08.2012 23:08, Barry Warsaw wrote: > > The question is how controllable would this need to be? Presumably, the > IMailingList itself would have a flag turning this off, > e.g. `send_command_results`. It sounds reasonable to configure this per list. > > If you do end up taking a crack at this, please open a bug and attach a > branch. Ideally, it would have a unittest or doctest, and it will have to go > through a schema migration, but I can help with that. are tests passing right now in trunk? last time i tried running the tests there were errors: Running mailman.testing.layers.ConfigLayer tests: Set up mailman.testing.layers.MockAndMonkeyLayer in 0.000 seconds. Set up mailman.testing.layers.ConfigLayer Traceback (most recent call last): .../mailman.buildout/eggs/storm-0.19-py2.6-linux-x86_64.egg/storm/databases/postgres.py", line 312, in __init__ % (REQUIRED_PSYCOPG2_VERSION, PSYCOPG2_VERSION)) DatabaseModuleError: 'psycopg2' >= 2.0.7 not found. Found None. Running mailman.testing.layers.RESTLayer tests: Set up mailman.testing.layers.ConfigLayer Traceback (most recent call last): .../mailman.buildout/devsrc/mailman/src/mailman/core/switchboard.py", line 268, in handle_ConfigurationUpdatedEvent 'Duplicate runner name: {0}'.format(name)) AssertionError: Duplicate runner name: in -Robert > >> One other thing, ... How about adding this to >> mailman3 core and where to add it? > > This will also take some more elaborate processing in the eml_confirm.py > command. I think there are enough hints in the confirmation message to know > which mailing list it's coming from, but if not, please submit a separate bug > on this (and a separate branch if you work on a fix). > > Cheers, > -Barry > _______________________________________________ > Mailman-Developers mailing list > Mailman-Developers at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/rnix%40squarewave.at > > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > -- Robert Niederreiter Squarewave Computing Aflingerstra?e 19 A-6176 V?ls Tel: +43 699 160 20 192 Web: http://www.squarewave.at From barry at list.org Mon Aug 20 15:34:17 2012 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:34:17 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM3 - preventing command summary by email In-Reply-To: <5031D954.3060600@squarewave.at> References: <20120819170807.7180d8f4@resist.wooz.org> <5031D954.3060600@squarewave.at> Message-ID: <20120820093417.581f571f@limelight.wooz.org> On Aug 20, 2012, at 08:29 AM, Robert Niederreiter wrote: >are tests passing right now in trunk? last time i tried running the tests >there were errors: This was just a section in testing.cfg that was left uncommented. I'd done a bunch of PostgreSQL clean up work and accidentally checked in the stanza that makes testing use PG. That's now fixed in the trunk. -Barry From devlists at irrtum.com Mon Aug 20 09:02:46 2012 From: devlists at irrtum.com (Peter Holzer) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:02:46 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM3 - preventing command summary by email In-Reply-To: <20120819170807.7180d8f4@resist.wooz.org> References: <20120819170807.7180d8f4@resist.wooz.org> Message-ID: <516C1369-C3CC-496D-ACE4-1C9FDBD666E3@irrtum.com> Thanx for the explanation, we'll look into that. Peter On 19.08.2012, at 23:08, Barry Warsaw wrote: > On Aug 19, 2012, at 04:50 PM, Peter Holzer wrote: > >> In my opinion or at least for our usecase it doesn't make much sense to send >> 2 mails to the subscriber, one that tells the user "Confirmation email sent" >> and sending a mail to the user that he should confirm his email address. If >> the command is successful, at least when there is only one command executed, >> it should be enough to send the actual result of the command. >> >> Would that be reasonable to make that configurable? > > Yes, I think so. > >> Where would be the right place to hook in and at least prevent such "double" >> send outs? > > The place to hook this in would be in the CommandRunner > src/mailman/runners/command.py > > If you look down near the bottom of _dispose(), you'll see where the reply is > created from a UserNotification(), then at the very bottom, it's sent. The > hypothetical flag controlling this would just skip all that to prevent the > results from being sent. > > The question is how controllable would this need to be? Presumably, the > IMailingList itself would have a flag turning this off, > e.g. `send_command_results`. > > If you do end up taking a crack at this, please open a bug and attach a > branch. Ideally, it would have a unittest or doctest, and it will have to go > through a schema migration, but I can help with that. > >> One other thing, I think it would be nice to have the actual list name in the >> subject of the action mails, for example "MyMailinglist confirm 66c0886...." >> instead of confirm 66c0886...." and it wouldn't interfere with the actual >> commands being executed as far as i could test it. How about adding this to >> mailman3 core and where to add it? > > This will also take some more elaborate processing in the eml_confirm.py > command. I think there are enough hints in the confirmation message to know > which mailing list it's coming from, but if not, please submit a separate bug > on this (and a separate branch if you work on a fix). > > Cheers, > -Barry > _______________________________________________ > Mailman-Developers mailing list > Mailman-Developers at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/devlists%40irrtum.com > > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 From devlists at irrtum.com Mon Aug 20 09:18:36 2012 From: devlists at irrtum.com (Peter Holzer) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:18:36 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] translation of mail templates Message-ID: Hi I started to translate the templates into german, resulting in some nasty unicode errors. Is there a howto on how the translation for other languages has to be done? Peter From devlists at irrtum.com Mon Aug 20 16:50:13 2012 From: devlists at irrtum.com (Peter Holzer) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:50:13 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] translation of mail templates Message-ID: Hi I started to translate the templates into german, resulting in some nasty unicode errors. Is there a howto on how the translation for other languages has to be done? Peter From p at state-of-mind.de Mon Aug 20 17:29:50 2012 From: p at state-of-mind.de (Patrick Ben Koetter) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 17:29:50 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] translation of mail templates In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <503257EE.2020308@state-of-mind.de> Peter, there should be German translations that come with Mailman 2. Which ones are you trying to translate? p at rick Am 20.08.2012 09:18, schrieb Peter Holzer: > Hi > I started to translate the templates into german, resulting in some nasty unicode errors. > Is there a howto on how the translation for other languages has to be done? > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Mailman-Developers mailing list > Mailman-Developers at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/p%40state-of-mind.de > > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 -- state of mind () Digitale Kommunikation www.state-of-mind.de Franziskanerstra?e 15 Telefon +49 89 3090 4664 81669 M?nchen Telefax +49 89 3090 4666 Amtsgericht M?nchen Partnerschaftsregister PR 563 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 3947 bytes Desc: S/MIME Kryptografische Unterschrift URL: From devlists at irrtum.com Mon Aug 20 18:22:18 2012 From: devlists at irrtum.com (Peter Holzer) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:22:18 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] translation of mail templates In-Reply-To: <503257EE.2020308@state-of-mind.de> References: <503257EE.2020308@state-of-mind.de> Message-ID: I just took the english templates from MM3 and started to change them. Are the templates the same as in MM2? Anyhow do i have to configure something in MM3 to make these templates work? Peter -------------------------------- agitator - webl?sungen Peter Holzer Sumatrastrasse 25 CH-8006 Z?rich Tel. +41 43 544 08 85 http://www.agitator.com On 20.08.2012, at 17:29, Patrick Ben Koetter

wrote: > Peter, > > there should be German translations that come with Mailman 2. > Which ones are you trying to translate? > > p at rick > > Am 20.08.2012 09:18, schrieb Peter Holzer: >> Hi >> I started to translate the templates into german, resulting in some nasty unicode errors. >> Is there a howto on how the translation for other languages has to be done? >> Peter >> _______________________________________________ >> Mailman-Developers mailing list >> Mailman-Developers at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers >> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 >> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ >> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/p%40state-of-mind.de >> >> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > > -- > state of mind () > Digitale Kommunikation > www.state-of-mind.de > Franziskanerstra?e 15 Telefon +49 89 3090 4664 > 81669 M?nchen Telefax +49 89 3090 4666 > Amtsgericht M?nchen Partnerschaftsregister PR 563 > > _______________________________________________ > Mailman-Developers mailing list > Mailman-Developers at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/devlists%40irrtum.com > > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 From barry at list.org Tue Aug 21 01:49:42 2012 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:49:42 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] translation of mail templates In-Reply-To: References: <503257EE.2020308@state-of-mind.de> Message-ID: <20120820194942.1cb83a3e@limelight.wooz.org> On Aug 20, 2012, at 06:22 PM, Peter Holzer wrote: >I just took the english templates from MM3 and started to change them. Are >the templates the same as in MM2? Anyhow do i have to configure something in >MM3 to make these templates work? The i18n infrastructure is probably not complete in mm3, although the basic should work. We don't really have good extraction of the messages, and we're still undecided on what service, or how, to manage translations. There are lots of options, but what I think really needs to happen is for someone to really take ownership of i18n for mm3. I'm happy to help with the technical side of the core, and the Postorius folks will help with the Django side, but I think we need someone who is really involved in translations to evaluate our options and drive the technical discussion forward. Cheers, -Barry From p at state-of-mind.de Tue Aug 21 02:08:31 2012 From: p at state-of-mind.de (Patrick Ben Koetter) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 02:08:31 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] translation of mail templates In-Reply-To: <20120820194942.1cb83a3e@limelight.wooz.org> References: <503257EE.2020308@state-of-mind.de> <20120820194942.1cb83a3e@limelight.wooz.org> Message-ID: <20120821000831.GB26780@state-of-mind.de> * Barry Warsaw : > On Aug 20, 2012, at 06:22 PM, Peter Holzer wrote: > > >I just took the english templates from MM3 and started to change them. Are > >the templates the same as in MM2? Anyhow do i have to configure something in > >MM3 to make these templates work? > > The i18n infrastructure is probably not complete in mm3, although the basic > should work. We don't really have good extraction of the messages, and we're > still undecided on what service, or how, to manage translations. There are > lots of options, but what I think really needs to happen is for someone to > really take ownership of i18n for mm3. I'm happy to help with the technical > side of the core, and the Postorius folks will help with the Django side, but > I think we need someone who is really involved in translations to evaluate our > options and drive the technical discussion forward. I am not the one to tell about the technical issues, but I can tell works well for Modoboa . They have free accounts for open source projects. It might be a nice way to organize a translation community. p at rick -- state of mind () http://www.state-of-mind.de Franziskanerstra?e 15 Telefon +49 89 3090 4664 81669 M?nchen Telefax +49 89 3090 4666 Amtsgericht M?nchen Partnerschaftsregister PR 563 From barry at list.org Tue Aug 21 02:38:56 2012 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:38:56 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] translation of mail templates In-Reply-To: <20120821000831.GB26780@state-of-mind.de> References: <503257EE.2020308@state-of-mind.de> <20120820194942.1cb83a3e@limelight.wooz.org> <20120821000831.GB26780@state-of-mind.de> Message-ID: <20120820203856.02c2494a@resist.wooz.org> On Aug 21, 2012, at 02:08 AM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: >I am not the one to tell about the technical issues, but I can tell > works well for Modoboa . >They have free accounts for open source projects. It might be a nice way to >organize a translation community. I saw a demo of them at Pycon. It looked pretty cool. -Barry From stephen at xemacs.org Tue Aug 21 06:04:10 2012 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 13:04:10 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] translation of mail templates In-Reply-To: <20120821000831.GB26780@state-of-mind.de> References: <503257EE.2020308@state-of-mind.de> <20120820194942.1cb83a3e@limelight.wooz.org> <20120821000831.GB26780@state-of-mind.de> Message-ID: <87txvw7ux1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Patrick Ben Koetter writes: > They have free accounts for open source projects. It might be a > nice way to organize a translation community. It's likely that we don't have to organize one, we already have one. Barry, why don't you try to get in touch with that Vietnamese lady and see what she thinks? There are also active translation communities at Debian and Launchpad, and I would assume at Red Hat/Fedora. Both Deb and Ubuntu are happy Mailman users, and I would guess Red Hat/Fedora, too. All probably would find some of the MM3 features very attractive for their own use. Steve From alexander at sulfrian.net Tue Aug 21 10:19:07 2012 From: alexander at sulfrian.net (Alexander Sulfrian) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 10:19:07 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] NNTP Archive - final report Message-ID: <87y5l8wtc4.wl%alexander@sulfrian.net> Hi, reaching the end of google summer of code, here is my final report. I have pushed all code to my bzr repository and have a running demo of the NNTP archive under mailman3.animux.de port 119 and 563. (The postorius web interface under mailman3.animux.de is not working completly correctly since I merged the mailman trunk back into my code) Features that are working: * NNTP Daemon could be started via the runner interface. It could be listen on two ports. The first one is a plain tcp connection supporting STARTTLS and the second allows nntps connections. (Please notice, that thunderbird currently does only support nntps connections and does not ask if it should accept the certificate. To test the nntps connections you first have to add the CACert root certificate to the list of trusted certificate authorities.) * The nntp daemon supports all mandatory commands and most of the commands of the READER capability. Additional to that it supports the AUTHINFO extension. The nntp daemon authenticates the user against the user information stored by mailman core. Because it has only access to the crypt passwords, it could only support authentiaction mechanism that uses plain text passwords. Therefor it supports and requires the STARTTLS extension (or the plain SSL connection) for authentication. * The nntp daemon provides access to all public list archives without authentication. If a user is logged in, the user has also access to its subscribed mailing lists, that has private archives. Currently the nntp archive uses a slightly patched version of kittystore (to allow access to mails based on its id in the mailing list). There is also a module that fills the kittystore if sending a mail via the lists. I currently imported some messages from an mbox into bla at mailman3.animux.de and feed some real messages into test at mailman3.animux.de. Although gsoc is over now, I would like to continue to work for mailman3. Next steps for the NNTP archive and archives in general could be: * Currently the nntp archive uses a slightly patches version of kittystore (allowing to access mails based on their database id). The IArchiver implementation uses the SqlAlchemy interface to feed data into the store. It would be much nicer not require a second ORM mapper. On solution could be to convert the SqlAlchemy interface to Storm models. But I think, before that the whole message store infrastructure should be reconsidered. Currently it works but their might be the same problems like with the user information mentioned earlier on this mailing list. kittystore currently stores a superset of all properties all archives need. Maybe here (in contrast to the user information) it would be a good idea to split it into private information of the archives and simply commonly stored mails. (I wrote some thoughts about that on my blog[1].) * Because of the current architecture of the kittystore the NNTP archive could not search for message ids over all known mailing lists. This is a feature of the commands ARTICLE, BODY, HEAD and STAT. I do not know if there are many news clients out there supporting it, but it should be supported in any way. * The NNTP protocols requires multiline responses to several commands. Currently the responses are build as a list and then send as whole to the client. For some commands it would be better to use a generator and to steam the line as they are generated. Even now (with only a few test lists) I noticed that the querying of the database about the count of the articles in the different lists slow down the LIST command. Streaming the lines it would be much convenient for the user. * (optional) Currently it is not possible to POST articles to a mailing list via the NNTP archive. It was stated that most of the news clients could send a mail as answer. Currently that is okay, but I think that it would be not so hard to implement it later as addition. For reference: the current code is available at launchpad[2]. I am open for improvements and as I said, although gsoc is over now, I would like to continue to work with mailman. (even though I do not like bazaar as much as git) Thanks, Alex 1: http://blog.animux.de/message-stores-and-mailman-archivers.html 2: https://code.launchpad.net/~alexander-sd4c/mailman/mailman -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From i at mindlace.net Tue Aug 21 11:08:26 2012 From: i at mindlace.net (Ethan Fremen) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 11:08:26 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] status of mailman 3.0 web stuff Message-ID: Hi! I (failed) to help provide a new UI in the 2006 summer of code sprint. It seems like now a framework is acceptable :) which makes me happy. I now have a job where I will be coding python again, and I was wondering if I could help push this forward? the http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Web+Interface+Status page says that a basic UI is being set up. Is there a way I can jump in and help? Thanks, ~ethan fremen From barry at list.org Tue Aug 21 16:27:02 2012 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 10:27:02 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] status of mailman 3.0 web stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120821102702.3c934a77@resist.wooz.org> On Aug 21, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Ethan Fremen wrote: >I now have a job where I will be coding python again, and I was wondering >if I could help push this forward? the >http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Web+Interface+Status page says that a >basic UI is being set up. This is being driven forward in the Postorius project https://launchpad.net/postorius which can still be discussed here on mailman-developers. Florian, perhaps you can update the above wiki page to provide some more updated information about Postorius? Cheers, -Barry From terri at zone12.com Tue Aug 21 18:00:27 2012 From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 10:00:27 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] status of mailman 3.0 web stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5033B09B.4060001@zone12.com> Yeay! In addition to what Barry said (join Postorious!) I just want to say I'm really excited to see you back. :) More specifically, though, I think a good first step with Postorious for you would be to take a look at the current roadmap for alpha2: https://launchpad.net/postorius/+milestone/1.0.0a2 As you can tell, it's pretty short, but I'm guessing we're missing things, and it'd be really helpful to have fresh eyes look at it. The instructions for setting up the interface so you can see what's already there are here: http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/A+5+minute+guide+to+get+the+Mailman+web+UI+running (And I tested the instructions a week or two ago, so if you have any trouble with them let me know.) Terri On 12-08-21 3:08 AM, Ethan Fremen wrote: > Hi! > > I (failed) to help provide a new UI in the 2006 summer of code sprint. It > seems like now a framework is acceptable :) which makes me happy. > > I now have a job where I will be coding python again, and I was wondering > if I could help push this forward? the > http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Web+Interface+Status page says that a > basic UI is being set up. > > Is there a way I can jump in and help? > > Thanks, > > ~ethan fremen > _______________________________________________ > Mailman-Developers mailing list > Mailman-Developers at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/terri%40zone12.com > > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > From f at state-of-mind.de Tue Aug 21 19:04:39 2012 From: f at state-of-mind.de (Florian Fuchs) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 19:04:39 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] status of mailman 3.0 web stuff In-Reply-To: <5033B09B.4060001@zone12.com> References: <5033B09B.4060001@zone12.com> Message-ID: <5033BFA7.3020304@state-of-mind.de> Hi Ethan, yes, the roadmap is probably the best place to get started. It covers the bugs/features for the next alpha release - but there are of course more ideas that have been floating around. (Yep, Barry, I should update the wiki page... ;). The five minute guide covers the quick installation of a development environment (using the django dev server), which is enough get you to start hacking quickly. If you plan to run Postorius with a "real" web server, you can find installation instructions for Apache here: http://packages.python.org/postorius/setup.html Cheers Florian On 08/21/2012 06:00 PM, Terri Oda wrote: > Yeay! In addition to what Barry said (join Postorious!) I just want to > say I'm really excited to see you back. :) > > More specifically, though, I think a good first step with Postorious for > you would be to take a look at the current roadmap for alpha2: > > https://launchpad.net/postorius/+milestone/1.0.0a2 > > As you can tell, it's pretty short, but I'm guessing we're missing > things, and it'd be really helpful to have fresh eyes look at it. > > The instructions for setting up the interface so you can see what's > already there are here: > > http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/A+5+minute+guide+to+get+the+Mailman+web+UI+running > > > (And I tested the instructions a week or two ago, so if you have any > trouble with them let me know.) > > Terri > > On 12-08-21 3:08 AM, Ethan Fremen wrote: >> Hi! >> >> I (failed) to help provide a new UI in the 2006 summer of code sprint. It >> seems like now a framework is acceptable :) which makes me happy. >> >> I now have a job where I will be coding python again, and I was wondering >> if I could help push this forward? the >> http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Web+Interface+Status page says that a >> basic UI is being set up. >> >> Is there a way I can jump in and help? >> >> Thanks, >> >> ~ethan fremen >> _______________________________________________ >> Mailman-Developers mailing list >> Mailman-Developers at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers >> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 >> Searchable Archives: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ >> Unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/terri%40zone12.com >> >> >> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 >> > > _______________________________________________ > Mailman-Developers mailing list > Mailman-Developers at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Searchable Archives: > http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/f%40state-of-mind.de > > > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 From f at state-of-mind.de Tue Aug 21 22:49:48 2012 From: f at state-of-mind.de (Florian Fuchs) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 22:49:48 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] status of mailman 3.0 web stuff In-Reply-To: <20120821102702.3c934a77@resist.wooz.org> References: <20120821102702.3c934a77@resist.wooz.org> Message-ID: <5033F46C.9020409@state-of-mind.de> Hi, On 08/21/2012 04:27 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > Florian, perhaps you can update the above wiki page to provide some more > updated information about Postorius? The page is now updated: http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Web+Interface+Status I have added a list of possible/planned future features, not all of which have been discussed with the community. Also I'm sure I have missed some things that might be important to others. So please see this list as a draft and add comments, send posts to this list or just edit the page directly. Cheers Florian From barry at list.org Wed Aug 22 01:47:11 2012 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 19:47:11 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] translation of mail templates In-Reply-To: <87txvw7ux1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <503257EE.2020308@state-of-mind.de> <20120820194942.1cb83a3e@limelight.wooz.org> <20120821000831.GB26780@state-of-mind.de> <87txvw7ux1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <20120821194711.3a17d304@resist.wooz.org> On Aug 21, 2012, at 01:04 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: >Patrick Ben Koetter writes: > > > They have free accounts for open source projects. It might be a > > nice way to organize a translation community. > >It's likely that we don't have to organize one, we already have one. >Barry, why don't you try to get in touch with that Vietnamese lady and >see what she thinks? Right, that would be Clytie, CC'd here. However, it's been a while since we've heard from her. >There are also active translation communities at Debian and Launchpad, >and I would assume at Red Hat/Fedora. Both Deb and Ubuntu are happy >Mailman users, and I would guess Red Hat/Fedora, too. All probably >would find some of the MM3 features very attractive for their own use. Definitely, and I've looked at all of the various translation services, mostly from the point of view of a project manager non-translator. E.g. how would I push updates into the service, how would I pull updates from the service, etc. I think I have a fairly good sense of what will work and what will cause headaches. I think I've posted to mailman-i18n@ before about my thoughts there. I'm CC'ing that list here too. But in some sense, it's more important for the translators to feel comfortable and welcome in whatever system we chose. Most are non-technical, so I think it's easier for us to make project workflow conform to a great translation system's quirks (and there *will* be quirks ;) than for them to work around pain in a translation system that easily integrates with our workflow. One question I have, and Steve, you're probably a great person to weigh in on this: what requirements does the GPLv3+ and being a GNU project place on us? Cheers, -Barry From barry at list.org Wed Aug 22 01:53:36 2012 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 19:53:36 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] NNTP Archive - final report In-Reply-To: <87y5l8wtc4.wl%alexander@sulfrian.net> References: <87y5l8wtc4.wl%alexander@sulfrian.net> Message-ID: <20120821195336.3318b0a6@resist.wooz.org> Thanks for the update Alex. I can confirm that Thunderbird on Ubuntu 12.10 can read the one newsgroup that has about 88 messages in it. Claws cannot though - it thinks the newsgroup is empty. I only tried port 119. I have not had a chance to look at the code yet. Cheers, -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alexander at sulfrian.net Wed Aug 22 02:46:18 2012 From: alexander at sulfrian.net (Alexander Sulfrian) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 02:46:18 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] NNTP Archive - final report In-Reply-To: <20120821195336.3318b0a6@resist.wooz.org> References: <87y5l8wtc4.wl%alexander@sulfrian.net> <20120821195336.3318b0a6@resist.wooz.org> Message-ID: <87wr0rwy79.wl%alexander@sulfrian.net> At Tue, 21 Aug 2012 19:53:36 -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote: > Thanks for the update Alex. I can confirm that Thunderbird on Ubuntu 12.10 > can read the one newsgroup that has about 88 messages in it. Claws cannot > though - it thinks the newsgroup is empty. Oh I see... claws-mail requires support for the XOVER extension of the NNTP protocol. This extension is not supported currently and all other newsreader I tested (thunderbird, snrl) fall back to the useage of the classical HEAD command to receive the information. I will see, if I could fix that... > I only tried port 119. > > I have not had a chance to look at the code yet. > > Cheers, > -Barry Alex -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From i at mindlace.net Thu Aug 23 09:02:50 2012 From: i at mindlace.net (Ethan Fremen) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 09:02:50 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] status of mailman 3.0 web stuff In-Reply-To: <5033B09B.4060001@zone12.com> References: <5033B09B.4060001@zone12.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, August 21, 2012, Terri Oda wrote: > Yeay! In addition to what Barry said (join Postorious!) I just want to > say I'm really excited to see you back. :) Thanks, Terri! I hope I'll be more useful this time around. More specifically, though, I think a good first step with Postorious for > you would be to take a look at the current roadmap for alpha2: > > https://launchpad.net/**postoriu > s/+milestone/1.0.0a2 I can try to take a whack at some of this as soon as my machine gets back from AppleCare. Is postorious also a FSF project? I failed to send in my copyright assignment thing ages ago, and I'm not sure what to put in the fsf's copyright assignment web form... T Thanks again for the welcome, -Ethan From devlists at irrtum.com Sun Aug 26 15:39:59 2012 From: devlists at irrtum.com (Peter Holzer) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 15:39:59 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] translation of mail templates In-Reply-To: <20120821194711.3a17d304@resist.wooz.org> References: <503257EE.2020308@state-of-mind.de> <20120820194942.1cb83a3e@limelight.wooz.org> <20120821000831.GB26780@state-of-mind.de> <87txvw7ux1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20120821194711.3a17d304@resist.wooz.org> Message-ID: Hi Aside of the actual translations being done... Can someone confirm that german umlauts and more or less exotic characters should work within the mail templates? Or shall i write a bug report? Peter On 22.08.2012, at 01:47, Barry Warsaw wrote: > On Aug 21, 2012, at 01:04 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > >> Patrick Ben Koetter writes: >> >>> They have free accounts for open source projects. It might be a >>> nice way to organize a translation community. >> >> It's likely that we don't have to organize one, we already have one. >> Barry, why don't you try to get in touch with that Vietnamese lady and >> see what she thinks? > > Right, that would be Clytie, CC'd here. However, it's been a while since > we've heard from her. > >> There are also active translation communities at Debian and Launchpad, >> and I would assume at Red Hat/Fedora. Both Deb and Ubuntu are happy >> Mailman users, and I would guess Red Hat/Fedora, too. All probably >> would find some of the MM3 features very attractive for their own use. > > Definitely, and I've looked at all of the various translation services, mostly > from the point of view of a project manager non-translator. E.g. how would I > push updates into the service, how would I pull updates from the service, > etc. I think I have a fairly good sense of what will work and what will cause > headaches. I think I've posted to mailman-i18n@ before about my thoughts > there. I'm CC'ing that list here too. > > But in some sense, it's more important for the translators to feel > comfortable and welcome in whatever system we chose. Most are non-technical, > so I think it's easier for us to make project workflow conform to a great > translation system's quirks (and there *will* be quirks ;) than for them to > work around pain in a translation system that easily integrates with our > workflow. > > One question I have, and Steve, you're probably a great person to weigh in on > this: what requirements does the GPLv3+ and being a GNU project place on us? > > Cheers, > -Barry > _______________________________________________ > Mailman-Developers mailing list > Mailman-Developers at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/devlists%40irrtum.com > > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 From mark at msapiro.net Sun Aug 26 21:22:09 2012 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:22:09 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] translation of mail templates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Peter Holzer wrote: >Hi >Aside of the actual translations being done... >Can someone confirm that german umlauts and more or less >exotic characters should work within the mail templates? Templates for web pages or pieces of web pages should have all non-ascii characters encoded as HTML entities, e.g. 'ä', 'ö', etc. Text templates for email messages, etc. can have non-ascii (exotic) characters as long as they are encoded in the character set that Mailman uses for that language. For Mailman 2.1 and German, this is iso-8859-1. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how this is working in MM3 in terms of how the various languages are registered and what the character set for German is (although most should probably be utf-8). -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From p at state-of-mind.de Sun Aug 26 23:12:32 2012 From: p at state-of-mind.de (Patrick Ben Koetter) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 23:12:32 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] translation of mail templates In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120826211231.GA11761@state-of-mind.de> * Mark Sapiro : > Peter Holzer wrote: > > >Hi > >Aside of the actual translations being done... > >Can someone confirm that german umlauts and more or less > >exotic characters should work within the mail templates? > > > Templates for web pages or pieces of web pages should have all > non-ascii characters encoded as HTML entities, e.g. 'ä', > 'ö', etc. Seriously? Is there a particular reason we can't go UTF-8 and use '?', '?' the way they are written natively? Don't take it personal, Mark, but eversince I've been on the Internet I had to use a charset from a foreign language to create a crippled representation of my native language. If there's a chance to improve that I'd like to take it. > Text templates for email messages, etc. can have non-ascii (exotic) > characters as long as they are encoded in the character set that > Mailman uses for that language. For Mailman 2.1 and German, this is > iso-8859-1. > > Unfortunately, I'm not sure how this is working in MM3 in terms of how > the various languages are registered and what the character set for > German is (although most should probably be utf-8). For German most people nowadays use UTF-8. p at rick -- state of mind () http://www.state-of-mind.de Franziskanerstra?e 15 Telefon +49 89 3090 4664 81669 M?nchen Telefax +49 89 3090 4666 Amtsgericht M?nchen Partnerschaftsregister PR 563 From mark at msapiro.net Mon Aug 27 01:38:31 2012 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:38:31 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] translation of mail templates In-Reply-To: <20120826211231.GA11761@state-of-mind.de> References: <20120826211231.GA11761@state-of-mind.de> Message-ID: <503AB377.9080708@msapiro.net> On 8/26/2012 2:12 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: > * Mark Sapiro : >> Templates for web pages or pieces of web pages should have all >> non-ascii characters encoded as HTML entities, e.g. 'ä', >> 'ö', etc. > > Seriously? Is there a particular reason we can't go UTF-8 and use '?', '?' > the way they are written natively? Yes, there is a reason. HTML entities are a standard way of representing non-ascii characters in HTML that survives miscommunication of character set information between web applications, web servers and web browsers. Mailman is developed as much as possible to work on multiple servers operated by different people with different configurations. It is possible to configure web servers to include a Content-Type: header with a charset parameter when sending a text/html response which will override the charset parameter in the Content-Type: that Mailman puts in a META tag in the HTML. (See, e.g., ). If mailman generates web pages with non-ascii, say utf-8 encoded characters and the installation's web server assigns a default character set other than utf-8, all the utf-8 encoded characters will be garbled. This will not happen if the characters are encoded as HTML entities. I know you wouldn't do such a thing, but if such a thing is possible, some Mailman installations somewhere will do it. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From stephen at xemacs.org Mon Aug 27 03:49:31 2012 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 10:49:31 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] translation of mail templates In-Reply-To: <503AB377.9080708@msapiro.net> References: <20120826211231.GA11761@state-of-mind.de> <503AB377.9080708@msapiro.net> Message-ID: <877gslums4.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Mark Sapiro writes: > If mailman generates web pages with non-ascii, say utf-8 encoded > characters and the installation's web server assigns a default character > set other than utf-8, all the utf-8 encoded characters will be garbled. > This will not happen if the characters are encoded as HTML > entities. So have Mailman do the encoding. Mandate that the input data such as templates are UTF-8, that template writers are responsible for ensuring that entities (eg, &) are syntactically correct (they will not be HTML-escaped), the output HTML pages are ASCII, and have Mailman do the translation of non-ASCII to HTML entities. Patrick gets what he wants, Mailman's generated pages are robust to webservers with broken encoding configs, and it is simple to check whether a user has done something stupid like encode their templates in Windows-1252. Note that this can be done algorithmically by using the horribly ugly Unicode "entities", and the extension to prettier named entities is easy. You could even provide a config option to turn off HTML escaping (defaulting to escaping on). If somebody has the skills to look at HTML source in a browser and cares, they probably have the skills to configure a webserver properly. Steve From clytie at riverland.net.au Mon Aug 27 10:07:37 2012 From: clytie at riverland.net.au (Clytie Siddall) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:37:37 +0930 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] translation of mail templates In-Reply-To: <20120821194711.3a17d304@resist.wooz.org> References: <503257EE.2020308@state-of-mind.de> <20120820194942.1cb83a3e@limelight.wooz.org> <20120821000831.GB26780@state-of-mind.de> <87txvw7ux1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20120821194711.3a17d304@resist.wooz.org> Message-ID: <75B2FB15-90A1-4910-9C1C-32DE65B8A89B@riverland.net.au> G'day all :) On 22/08/2012, at 9:17 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > On Aug 21, 2012, at 01:04 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > >> Patrick Ben Koetter writes: >> >>> They have free accounts for open source projects. It might be a >>> nice way to organize a translation community. >> >> It's likely that we don't have to organize one, we already have one. >> Barry, why don't you try to get in touch with that Vietnamese lady and >> see what she thinks? > > Right, that would be Clytie, CC'd here. However, it's been a while since > we've heard from her. Unfortunately, I've become too ill to participate usefully (I've had to unsub from or go nomail on my lists). However, I can offer an opinion on the days when I can answer CC'd or direct mail. > >> There are also active translation communities at Debian and Launchpad, >> and I would assume at Red Hat/Fedora. Both Deb and Ubuntu are happy >> Mailman users, and I would guess Red Hat/Fedora, too. All probably >> would find some of the MM3 features very attractive for their own use. > > Definitely, and I've looked at all of the various translation services, mostly > from the point of view of a project manager non-translator. E.g. how would I > push updates into the service, how would I pull updates from the service, > etc. I think I have a fairly good sense of what will work and what will cause > headaches. I think I've posted to mailman-i18n@ before about my thoughts > there. I'm CC'ing that list here too. > > But in some sense, it's more important for the translators to feel > comfortable and welcome in whatever system we chose. Most are non-technical, > so I think it's easier for us to make project workflow conform to a great > translation system's quirks (and there *will* be quirks ;) than for them to > work around pain in a translation system that easily integrates with our > workflow. > > One question I have, and Steve, you're probably a great person to weigh in on > this: what requirements does the GPLv3+ and being a GNU project place on us? > Barry, you are spot on with your statement that an effective translation workflow needs to suit the needs and backgrounds of the localizers, not the quirks of the software dev. system. The word "quirks" fits some systems quite well, the egregious example being OpenOffice.org, which has a labyrinthine and migraine-inducing endurance crawl thinly disguised as localization. When I started at OOo, there was no basic howto on how to get through this maze of requirements, so I wrote one. The need for one seemed to come as a surprise to the project hierarchy. The thing to remember is that localizers usually don't read English with any degree of comfort. You need a simple, step-by-step description of how to get from an unlocalized package to a localized release. Diagrams (e.g. flow charts) are good. Make it a checklist, so they can check off each step. Have a single login to access all the processes needed for localization. OOo required a huge number of separate logins, each with its own cumbersome procedure. I've often seen localizers shy away from reporting bugs or joining a tracker to submit translations as an issue, because it's one more thing they have to understand and do in a second language. Login access should also show translation stats, both software and docs (see GNOME's platform for localization), and you should be able to submit translations there. GNOME have done a lot of work on this, so they're good people to ask. Without more info, I'm assuming from this email that you're looking at integrating Mailman with the main translation projects. In my cross-project experience, Debian i18n have the best record for innovation and quality: see Christian Perrier (CC'd). Debian does use email for submitting localizations and for notifications about them, both actions I assume would be part of your integration. Packages can also use an automatic email localization-update-request process. You could also look at working with the Translation Project (GNU and others) 's email robot input-and-error-notification process. When I last used it, (free-software localization interface) Pootle didn't have email integration (although it was one of the features I think I requested ;) ). I think you'd find the Pootle project quite interested in working with you. I found them innovative, flexible and focussed on improving access to localization. (CC'd to their list, in the hope that I went nomail there rather than unsubbed.) Launchpad used to be insecure and of low quality, but that was a while back. I hear they've improved. They do integrate mailing lists associated with the localization, if supplied. I could be quite off-base in my response, since I'm not sure from your text what you want to do. ;) However, when considering localization projects and workflow, for those of you who speak a second language, imagine what would help _you_ if people wanted to encourage you to code for a project where all info and communication is in that second language. Think about it. from Clytie Clytie Siddall Renmark, in the Riverland of South Australia From nemowiki at gmail.com Mon Aug 27 11:20:39 2012 From: nemowiki at gmail.com (Federico Leva (Nemo)) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 11:20:39 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-i18n] translation of mail templates In-Reply-To: <75B2FB15-90A1-4910-9C1C-32DE65B8A89B@riverland.net.au> References: <503257EE.2020308@state-of-mind.de> <20120820194942.1cb83a3e@limelight.wooz.org> <20120821000831.GB26780@state-of-mind.de> <87txvw7ux1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20120821194711.3a17d304@resist.wooz.org> <75B2FB15-90A1-4910-9C1C-32DE65B8A89B@riverland.net.au> Message-ID: <503B3BE7.5040400@gmail.com> Clytie Siddall, 27/08/2012 10:07: > G'day all :) Good morning and thank you for your interesting email. > Barry, you are spot on with your statement that an effective translation workflow needs to suit the needs and backgrounds of the localizers, not the quirks of the software dev. system. I'm only a lurker on this mailing list but this encouraged me to briefly mention my experience as translator on translatewiki.net (). > The word "quirks" fits some systems quite well, the egregious example being OpenOffice.org, which has a labyrinthine and migraine-inducing endurance crawl thinly disguised as localization. When I started at OOo, there was no basic howto on how to get through this maze of requirements, so I wrote one. The need for one seemed to come as a surprise to the project hierarchy. > > The thing to remember is that localizers usually don't read English with any degree of comfort. You need a simple, step-by-step description of how to get from an unlocalized package to a localized release. Diagrams (e.g. flow charts) are good. Make it a checklist, so they can check off each step. The good thing of translatewiki.net is that there isn't any step after registration: you only translate, not waste time on process and bureaucracy as on most translation projects. Niklas explains it here for instance: Even for registering there's a wizard > > Have a single login to access all the processes needed for localization. OOo required a huge number of separate logins, each with its own cumbersome procedure. I've often seen localizers shy away from reporting bugs or joining a tracker to submit translations as an issue, because it's one more thing they have to understand and do in a second language. Translatewiki.net has a single login for all projects. > > Login access should also show translation stats, both software and docs (see GNOME's platform for localization), and you should be able to submit translations there. GNOME have done a lot of work on this, so they're good people to ask. Translate has plenty of live statistics. > > Without more info, I'm assuming from this email that you're looking at integrating Mailman with the main translation projects. In my cross-project experience, Debian i18n have the best record for innovation and quality: see Christian Perrier (CC'd). Debian does use email for submitting localizations and for notifications about them, both actions I assume would be part of your integration. Packages can also use an automatic email localization-update-request process. I don't know what you mean exactly with "email integration" and notifications are usually not needed on translatewiki.net to get stuff translated (because translating is easier and there are more translators), anyway exists and proved very effective on meta.wikimedia.org. > > You could also look at working with the Translation Project (GNU and others) 's email robot input-and-error-notification process. Again, I don't know what a "input-and-error-notification process" but translators on translatewiki.net don't usually have to care about such things (the web interface is reliable enough) and for the few failures there are automatic warnings and aids. > > When I last used it, (free-software localization interface) Pootle didn't have email integration (although it was one of the features I think I requested ;) ). I think you'd find the Pootle project quite interested in working with you. I found them innovative, flexible and focussed on improving access to localization. (CC'd to their list, in the hope that I went nomail there rather than unsubbed.) > > Launchpad used to be insecure and of low quality, but that was a while back. I hear they've improved. They do integrate mailing lists associated with the localization, if supplied. > > I could be quite off-base in my response, since I'm not sure from your text what you want to do. ;) > > However, when considering localization projects and workflow, for those of you who speak a second language, imagine what would help _you_ if people wanted to encourage you to code for a project where all info and communication is in that second language. And finally, the best feature of translatewiki.net is that its main developers/managers are among the most active translators to their language and this helps a lot, I found. Federico aka Nemo From nemowiki at gmail.com Mon Aug 27 12:16:52 2012 From: nemowiki at gmail.com (Federico Leva (Nemo)) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 12:16:52 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-i18n] translation of mail templates In-Reply-To: References: <503257EE.2020308@state-of-mind.de> <20120820194942.1cb83a3e@limelight.wooz.org> <20120821000831.GB26780@state-of-mind.de> <87txvw7ux1.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20120821194711.3a17d304@resist.wooz.org> <75B2FB15-90A1-4910-9C1C-32DE65B8A89B@riverland.net.au> <503B3BE7.5040400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <503B4914.1070406@gmail.com> Christopher Meng, 27/08/2012 12:03: > Hi. > > What about transifex? I've never used it, but a developer and translator for an OpenStreetMap piece of software recently said: ?We ended up with Transifex, which might look cooler but certainly is an inferior tool for the translator I can say now after having used for some hours?. Nemo