From vezzo.bonelessclub at gmail.com  Fri Oct  1 12:04:57 2010
From: vezzo.bonelessclub at gmail.com (Federico Vezzoli)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 12:04:57 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] styiling the archive
Message-ID: <AANLkTimuOwztcZhaf2CifvYeg6C-xPsr7_r=uq16V3uH@mail.gmail.com>

I'm already a user of mailman and it works pretty good.
A client asked me if it's possible to have the archive online and to
integrate it in his website.
So my question is: "Is possible to add some markup and css to the mailing
archive to make it pretty to integrate with the website?"

thanks.

From barry at list.org  Fri Oct  1 15:58:48 2010
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 09:58:48 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] styiling the archive
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimuOwztcZhaf2CifvYeg6C-xPsr7_r=uq16V3uH@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimuOwztcZhaf2CifvYeg6C-xPsr7_r=uq16V3uH@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101001095848.1ffa3227@mission>

On Oct 01, 2010, at 12:04 PM, Federico Vezzoli wrote:

>I'm already a user of mailman and it works pretty good.
>A client asked me if it's possible to have the archive online and to
>integrate it in his website.
>So my question is: "Is possible to add some markup and css to the
>mailing archive to make it pretty to integrate with the website?"

Yes, it's open source so of course it's possible. :)

The question is how difficult it is to do.  You may have to hack the Python to
get it to look the way you want.

-Barry
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From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Oct  1 16:09:43 2010
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 07:09:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] styiling the archive
In-Reply-To: <20101001095848.1ffa3227@mission>
Message-ID: <PC1952010100107094306879c3a889a@MSAPIRO>

Barry Warsaw wrote:
>
>On Oct 01, 2010, at 12:04 PM, Federico Vezzoli wrote:
>
>>I'm already a user of mailman and it works pretty good.
>>A client asked me if it's possible to have the archive online and to
>>integrate it in his website.
>>So my question is: "Is possible to add some markup and css to the
>>mailing archive to make it pretty to integrate with the website?"
>
>Yes, it's open source so of course it's possible. :)
>
>The question is how difficult it is to do.  You may have to hack the Python
> to
>get it to look the way you want.


Actually, I don't think it's difficult. The pipermail archive is
already template driven so unless you want to get really tricky, you
should be able to just edit a few templates.

See templates/<language_code>/arch* for the templates and the FAQ at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/jYA9> for editing instructions.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From terri at zone12.com  Fri Oct  1 16:55:32 2010
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 10:55:32 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] styiling the archive
In-Reply-To: <PC1952010100107094306879c3a889a@MSAPIRO>
References: <PC1952010100107094306879c3a889a@MSAPIRO>
Message-ID: <4CA5F664.4080202@zone12.com>


>>> So my question is: "Is possible to add some markup and css to the
>>> mailing archive to make it pretty to integrate with the website?"
>>>       
>> Yes, it's open source so of course it's possible. :)
>>
>> The question is how difficult it is to do.  You may have to hack the Python
>> to get it to look the way you want.
>>     
>
>
> Actually, I don't think it's difficult. The pipermail archive is
> already template driven so unless you want to get really tricky, you
> should be able to just edit a few templates.
>
> See templates/<language_code>/arch* for the templates and the FAQ at
> <http://wiki.list.org/x/jYA9> for editing instructions.
>   

Yes, it's definitely possible and AFAIK not terribly onerous except that 
there's a few files to edit and apparently it's easy to miss one.  If 
you've got someone who's a bit of a wiz with CSS, you can do some very 
impressive stuff just by adding a stylesheet link into the templates.  I 
*know* I've seen some very slick themed archives but I apparently don't 
have the bookmarks anymore.  Anyone who did that want to brag?

 Terri

From terri at zone12.com  Tue Oct 26 21:54:31 2010
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 15:54:31 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Archives! Two neat demos from my GSoC students
Message-ID: <4CC731F7.9000407@zone12.com>

As some of you may know, Mailman had a bunch of Google Summer of Code 
students working on our codebase via Systers, which hired students to do 
improvements on their Mailman-based list infrastructure.

I was mentoring for the project which worked on the archives, where we 
had two students, Yian Shang who worked on the web interface for the 
archives, and Priya Iyer who worked on integrating search.  They've 
produced some great demos that you all need to see, and some code that 
I'd really like to see integrated into Mailman 3.

I was going to forward their final summaries to the lists, but since 
they're quite long, here's the things I'd like you all to check out 
first and foremost.  There's two neat demos here!

#1:

Yian's been working on a variety of UI infrastructure improvements (note 
that in this case, she's working at the code to support the UI, not the 
graphics and theming, so this may not *look* fancy but it *behaves* 
really well)

Her threaded conversation demo is here:
http://dev.systers.org/pipermail/testing/all/conversation-3.html

and note that you can actually click through and read messages there, so 
try poking around those archives and see how you like them!

And you might be interested in hearing about the use cases that went 
into threading and quote detection that made that demo possible.  Many 
of you may have answered the surveys I sent out on her behalf which were 
used to generate these use cases!  She's got a whole series of posts on 
it, but here's one of interest:
http://movicont.nfshost.com/blog/mailman-archives-ui-added-automatically-detecting-quotes-support

#2:

Priya's search demo is here:
http://lists.priyakuber.in/cgi-bin/mailman/mailocate/search.py

She'd originally hoped to find and integrate an existing search package, 
but licensing proved to be an issue for upstream contribution, so she 
wound up implementing her own.  You can search a string, a phrase, 
wildcard searches with *, by author, by subject, and using some basic 
operators (AND OR NOT all work).  It's got a basic spell check, though 
she expects that will need to be improved.

The documentation is here: 
http://systers.org/systers-dev/doku.php/doumentation-priya
And the code is here: 
http://github.com/beachbrake/Mailocate/tree/master/demo/

-----

I've cc'ed mailman-users on this email since many people there contributed to the surveys we used to develop use-cases, but follow-ups should probably go to mailman-developers!


 Terri


From barry at list.org  Tue Oct 26 23:55:03 2010
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:55:03 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Archives! Two neat demos from my GSoC
 students
In-Reply-To: <4CC731F7.9000407@zone12.com>
References: <4CC731F7.9000407@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <20101026175503.615af983@mission>

I'm currently at UDS (Ubuntu Developer Summit) so I'm not able to look in
detail at the moment, but to say I'm psyched would be an understatement!
Really awesome work and kudos to everyone involved.

I'll play with the demos and provide more feedback when I get back, but in the
meantime let me follow up on this:

On Oct 26, 2010, at 03:54 PM, Terri Oda wrote:

>I was mentoring for the project which worked on the archives, where we had
>two students, Yian Shang who worked on the web interface for the archives,
>and Priya Iyer who worked on integrating search.  They've produced some great
>demos that you all need to see, and some code that I'd really like to see
>integrated into Mailman 3.

Do you want to integrate all of the archiver and search code into Mailman 3 or
just some integration code?  Despite the way Pipermail's always been bundled
with Mailman 2, I'm not sure that's the most productive way to structure the
project going forward.  In fact, I'd like to split Pipermail out of the
Mailman 3 bzr tree (and started to go down that path at one point) and MM3's
architecture allows for much easier integration with external archivers (even
multiple ones at the same time).  So it might make sense to structure the
Syster's archiver work as a separate project too.

Please do submit merge proposals against the Mailman 3 trunk for the changes.
If you're (meaning Terri, Yian, and Priya specifically, but also applying to
anyone in general) unsure about how to go about that, guidelines for
reviewable branches, or any other related issue, please don't hesitate to ping
me on #mailman next week and I can help walk you through it.  I'm UTC-4 and
generally online during working hours.

We'll also need to get copyright assignments to the FSF.  Email me off-line to
get that process started, or if there are any problems doing so.

Cheers,
-Barry
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From srf at sanger.ac.uk  Wed Oct 27 12:02:02 2010
From: srf at sanger.ac.uk (Simon Fraser)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:02:02 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Help with mailman 3, attempting to build branch
Message-ID: <1288173722.27066.146.camel@deskpro17110.dynamic.sanger.ac.uk>


Hi,

This is a newbie question, I realise, but I'm trying to get a branch of
mailman 3 working, so that I can add in some support for
LDAP/mailAlternateAddress lookups, which I know will be useful for our
site, and hopefully useful for others.  

I've worked through the bzr install[0] and finally have my own separate
install of Python 2.7 with bzr2.3, just for mailman. However, 2.7
doesn't appear to work - should I be using Python 2.6 instead? Is there
a way to get it working with 2.7? [1]

Incidentally, are there plans to allow installs to a different location?
If you specify a prefix to install under, it checks for the presence of
the Python site-packages and fails if they're not present. Is it going
to be a requirement to install under the Python tree, or is this just
for development? 

Thanks,
Simon.

[0] Debian/lenny has Python 2.5, which is too old. It does have bzr 2.0,
which is apparently recent enough, however each installation of Python
expects bzr to be in the same bin/ directory as the python binary, so
one must build bzr independantly for each Python install. This isn't
very intuitive for someone new to this tool.

[1] "python-2.7 setup.py build" produces:
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "setup.py", line 112, in <module>
    docs=['Sphinx', 'z3c.recipe.sphinxdoc'],
<... whole lot of lines about run_command...>
 File
"/$PYTHON_HOME/lib/python2.7/site-packages/setuptools_bzr-2.0-py2.7.egg/setuptools_bzr/__init__.py", line 50, in bzrlib_get_children
    inv =
branch.repository.get_revision_inventory(branch.last_revision())
AttributeError: 'CHKInventoryRepository' object has no attribute
'get_revision_inventory'








-- 
 The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute is operated by Genome Research 
 Limited, a charity registered in England with number 1021457 and a 
 company registered in England with number 2742969, whose registered 
 office is 215 Euston Road, London, NW1 2BE. 

From barry at list.org  Wed Oct 27 14:09:00 2010
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 08:09:00 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Help with mailman 3,
 attempting to build branch
In-Reply-To: <1288173722.27066.146.camel@deskpro17110.dynamic.sanger.ac.uk>
References: <1288173722.27066.146.camel@deskpro17110.dynamic.sanger.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <20101027080900.477de2d3@mission>

On Oct 27, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Simon Fraser wrote:

>I've worked through the bzr install[0] and finally have my own separate
>install of Python 2.7 with bzr2.3, just for mailman. However, 2.7
>doesn't appear to work - should I be using Python 2.6 instead? Is there
>a way to get it working with 2.7? [1]

Hi Simon.  I can reproduce this with Python2.7 on Ubuntu 10.10.  This is
caused by the locknix package, which depends on setuptools_bzr.  The issues
you've identified with bzr on Python2.7 are causing the setuptools_bzr
dependency to fail.

The upstream fix is to remove this dependency from the locknix setup.py file.
I'll try to do that in the next day or so.  Once I release a new locknix
package, it should work again.  (Side note: I want to move locknix into the
flufl namespace package, so things will change a bit more at some point in the
future, but I won't block a quick fix on that reorganization.)

>Incidentally, are there plans to allow installs to a different location?
>If you specify a prefix to install under, it checks for the presence of
>the Python site-packages and fails if they're not present. Is it going
>to be a requirement to install under the Python tree, or is this just
>for development? 

Can you provide the commands that failed for you?  I'd like to try to
reproduce this.  If you can, submit a bug report.

Ideally, the 'mailman' package will be installed under site-packages (or
dist-packages for the Debuntudes in the audience ;) and you'll have access to
just the few command line scripts in /usr/bin.

Alternatively, it should be possible to build Mailman 3 in a virtualenv to
stick it anywhere you want, though I haven't tried that in a while.

-Barry
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From srf at sanger.ac.uk  Wed Oct 27 14:33:03 2010
From: srf at sanger.ac.uk (Simon Fraser)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:33:03 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Help with mailman 3,
	attempting to build	branch
In-Reply-To: <20101027080900.477de2d3@mission>
References: <1288173722.27066.146.camel@deskpro17110.dynamic.sanger.ac.uk>
	<20101027080900.477de2d3@mission>
Message-ID: <1288182783.27066.165.camel@deskpro17110.dynamic.sanger.ac.uk>



> The upstream fix is to remove this dependency from the locknix setup.py file.
> I'll try to do that in the next day or so.  Once I release a new locknix
> package, it should work again.  (Side note: I want to move locknix into the
> flufl namespace package, so things will change a bit more at some point in the
> future, but I won't block a quick fix on that reorganization.)

Thanks for the quick response. I'll use Python 2.6.3 until it changes. 

> >Incidentally, are there plans to allow installs to a different location?

> Can you provide the commands that failed for you?  I'd like to try to
> reproduce this.  If you can, submit a bug report.

Submitted, as #667252

> Ideally, the 'mailman' package will be installed under site-packages (or
> dist-packages for the Debuntudes in the audience ;) and you'll have access to
> just the few command line scripts in /usr/bin.

I think the options for me will be "Build a .deb" or "Install Python &
Mailman in their own environment."  I asked because our current Mailman
installation is on its own partition, replicated with DRBD, and I was
concerned about being able to continue doing that.

Thanks,
Simon.





-- 
 The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute is operated by Genome Research 
 Limited, a charity registered in England with number 1021457 and a 
 company registered in England with number 2742969, whose registered 
 office is 215 Euston Road, London, NW1 2BE. 

From sandhills at gmail.com  Wed Oct 27 14:48:12 2010
From: sandhills at gmail.com (Beth Morgan)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 08:48:12 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] Archives! Two neat demos
	from my GSoC students
In-Reply-To: <4CC731F7.9000407@zone12.com>
References: <4CC731F7.9000407@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <465FF07C-3C49-43BE-B1E5-840B76AED594@gmail.com>

This is just incredible.  Thanks so much!  


On Oct 26, 2010, at 3:54 PM, Terri Oda wrote:

> As some of you may know, Mailman had a bunch of Google Summer of Code students working on our codebase via Systers, which hired students to do improvements on their Mailman-based list infrastructure.
> 
> I was mentoring for the project which worked on the archives, where we had two students, Yian Shang who worked on the web interface for the archives, and Priya Iyer who worked on integrating search.  They've produced some great demos that you all need to see, and some code that I'd really like to see integrated into Mailman 3.
> 
> I was going to forward their final summaries to the lists, but since they're quite long, here's the things I'd like you all to check out first and foremost.  There's two neat demos here!
> 
> #1:
> 
> Yian's been working on a variety of UI infrastructure improvements (note that in this case, she's working at the code to support the UI, not the graphics and theming, so this may not *look* fancy but it *behaves* really well)
> 
> Her threaded conversation demo is here:
> http://dev.systers.org/pipermail/testing/all/conversation-3.html
> 
> and note that you can actually click through and read messages there, so try poking around those archives and see how you like them!
> 
> And you might be interested in hearing about the use cases that went into threading and quote detection that made that demo possible.  Many of you may have answered the surveys I sent out on her behalf which were used to generate these use cases!  She's got a whole series of posts on it, but here's one of interest:
> http://movicont.nfshost.com/blog/mailman-archives-ui-added-automatically-detecting-quotes-support
> 
> #2:
> 
> Priya's search demo is here:
> http://lists.priyakuber.in/cgi-bin/mailman/mailocate/search.py
> 
> She'd originally hoped to find and integrate an existing search package, but licensing proved to be an issue for upstream contribution, so she wound up implementing her own.  You can search a string, a phrase, wildcard searches with *, by author, by subject, and using some basic operators (AND OR NOT all work).  It's got a basic spell check, though she expects that will need to be improved.
> 
> The documentation is here: http://systers.org/systers-dev/doku.php/doumentation-priya
> And the code is here: http://github.com/beachbrake/Mailocate/tree/master/demo/
> 
> -----
> 
> I've cc'ed mailman-users on this email since many people there contributed to the surveys we used to develop use-cases, but follow-ups should probably go to mailman-developers!
> 
> 
> Terri
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/sandhills%40gmail.com


From barry at list.org  Wed Oct 27 14:59:32 2010
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 08:59:32 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Help with mailman 3,
 attempting to build branch
In-Reply-To: <1288182783.27066.165.camel@deskpro17110.dynamic.sanger.ac.uk>
References: <1288173722.27066.146.camel@deskpro17110.dynamic.sanger.ac.uk>
	<20101027080900.477de2d3@mission>
	<1288182783.27066.165.camel@deskpro17110.dynamic.sanger.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <20101027085932.17cbd0e7@mission>

On Oct 27, 2010, at 01:33 PM, Simon Fraser wrote:

>I think the options for me will be "Build a .deb" or "Install Python &
>Mailman in their own environment."  I asked because our current Mailman
>installation is on its own partition, replicated with DRBD, and I was
>concerned about being able to continue doing that.

I'll likely start building packages of this once we get to beta.  I'll
probably also build it in my PPA for Ubuntu.  You're use cases are important
so thanks for submitting the bug report, and if you have time and motivation,
patches are welcome. :)

-Barry

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From terri at zone12.com  Wed Oct 27 18:12:29 2010
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:12:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Archives! Two neat demos from my GSoC
	students
In-Reply-To: <20101026175503.615af983@mission>
References: <4CC731F7.9000407@zone12.com> <20101026175503.615af983@mission>
Message-ID: <4CC84F6D.60000@zone12.com>

Barry Warsaw wrote:
> Do you want to integrate all of the archiver and search code into Mailman 3 or
> just some integration code?  Despite the way Pipermail's always been bundled
> with Mailman 2, I'm not sure that's the most productive way to structure the
> project going forward.  In fact, I'd like to split Pipermail out of the
> Mailman 3 bzr tree (and started to go down that path at one point) and MM3's
> architecture allows for much easier integration with external archivers (even
> multiple ones at the same time).  So it might make sense to structure the
> Syster's archiver work as a separate project too.
>   
Right now, the archiver demos just eat Mailman mbox files for lunch (in 
theory they could be even integrated with a 2.1 installation) so 
splitting should be easy from a technical standpoint. 

But there's only a handful of developers working on this, and I think 
the overhead, however small, is more than it's worth at the moment.  So 
maybe we could keep them integrated for now until it's more clearly a 
win to split the tree off? 

Mostly, I don't want my own project right now: I'm worried that I'd wind 
up being a blocker on something due to limited time over the next 6 
months.  I mean, these demos were done in August and I'm just posting 
them to the list now... We can revisit splitting it off when I have more 
time or more help. :)

Meanwhile, I'll get in touch with Priya and Yian and see about copyright 
assignment and getting those branches merged into somewhere appropriate 
in the tree.

 Terri

From barry at list.org  Wed Oct 27 23:20:19 2010
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:20:19 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Help with mailman 3,
 attempting to build branch
In-Reply-To: <20101027080900.477de2d3@mission>
References: <1288173722.27066.146.camel@deskpro17110.dynamic.sanger.ac.uk>
	<20101027080900.477de2d3@mission>
Message-ID: <20101027172019.6abb5ba8@mission>

On Oct 27, 2010, at 08:09 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

>Hi Simon.  I can reproduce this with Python2.7 on Ubuntu 10.10.  This is
>caused by the locknix package, which depends on setuptools_bzr.  The issues
>you've identified with bzr on Python2.7 are causing the setuptools_bzr
>dependency to fail.

FWIW, the Mailman 3 bzr trunk should now work fine[*] with Python 2.7 (without
breaking Python 2.6 :).  I fixed both the locknix problem, and two minor
Python 2.7 compatibility problems.

-Barry

[*] in the sense that the full test suite passes.

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From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu Oct 28 01:20:06 2010
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 08:20:06 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Archives! Two neat demos from my
	GSoC	students
In-Reply-To: <4CC84F6D.60000@zone12.com>
References: <4CC731F7.9000407@zone12.com> <20101026175503.615af983@mission>
	<4CC84F6D.60000@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <87bp6fcjfd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Terri Oda writes:

 > But there's only a handful of developers working on this, and I think 
 > the overhead, however small, is more than it's worth at the moment.  So 
 > maybe we could keep them integrated for now until it's more clearly a 
 > win to split the tree off? 

What worries me is that pipermail's "integration" with Mailman has
been a blocker (at the very least, sufficiently enthusiasm-sapping)
for real improvements in Mailman's archiving system for about a
*decade*.  OK, so the new archiver/searcher is whizzy and nice, but
realistically, people are going to find a million use cases that the
new system doesn't do yet.  Some people will prefer pipermail (if only
from inertia).  Some will want to use a third-party system.  It needs
to be easy for people to choose.

If we don't do the surgery now, when will it get done?