From egli at allink.ch Fri Nov 5 16:01:53 2010 From: egli at allink.ch (Marc Egli) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 16:01:53 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Can i use the Bouncer API a Programm wich is not GPL? Message-ID: <58C50E65-760F-4F2F-9AE4-F348185EDD62@allink.ch> We are building a newsletter application for the django framework. For bounce detection we want to use the Mailman bouncerAPI because reimplementing would be a bad idea. Now my question is: can i release my application under a less restrictive license like the bsd license? I don't distribute Mailman i only list it as a requirement in setup.py According to the gpl-faq this is a borderline case because i only invoke a function and wait for the response. http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#NFUseGPLPlugins Is it possible to use Mailman like this? Is this the intended use of the BouncerAPI? Marc From barry at list.org Fri Nov 5 17:10:59 2010 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 12:10:59 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Can i use the Bouncer API a Programm wich is not GPL? In-Reply-To: <58C50E65-760F-4F2F-9AE4-F348185EDD62@allink.ch> References: <58C50E65-760F-4F2F-9AE4-F348185EDD62@allink.ch> Message-ID: <20101105121059.3b0c8631@mission> On Nov 05, 2010, at 04:01 PM, Marc Egli wrote: >We are building a newsletter application for the django framework. For bounce >detection we want to use the Mailman bouncerAPI because reimplementing would >be a bad idea. Now my question is: can i release my application under a less >restrictive license like the bsd license? I don't distribute Mailman i only >list it as a requirement in setup.py > >According to the gpl-faq this is a borderline case because i only invoke a >function and wait for the response. >http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#NFUseGPLPlugins > >Is it possible to use Mailman like this? Is this the intended use of the >BouncerAPI? I'm not sure I fully understand - you want to use the bounce detection code that lives in Mailman 2's Bouncers package? Do you want to be able to pass a message object in, let all the heuristics run, and then get a list of matching addresses out of it? That's a very interesting use case, and it would be useful to have that available as a separate package (perhaps something to do for MM3), but it's not how the Mailman2 code is intended to be used. You probably can use it that way if you set up your PYTHONPATH correctly, but it's definitely untested and unsupported. As to whether it's legal or not, IANAL and won't make any official claims about that. Since the FSF owns the copyright, you'll need to ask them: http://www.fsf.org/about/contact/email My gut feeling is that it would not be legal. -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stephen at xemacs.org Fri Nov 5 17:55:38 2010 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 01:55:38 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Can i use the Bouncer API a Programm wich is not GPL? In-Reply-To: <58C50E65-760F-4F2F-9AE4-F348185EDD62@allink.ch> References: <58C50E65-760F-4F2F-9AE4-F348185EDD62@allink.ch> Message-ID: <87r5ezhfqt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Marc Egli writes: > Now my question is: can i release my application under a less > restrictive license like the bsd license? Probably not. > According to the gpl-faq this is a borderline case because i only > invoke a function and wait for the response. > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#NFUseGPLPlugins The plugin really needs to be designed as a separate program with a single entry point and enumerated options (at most, with simple data types like strings and integers as arguments) to qualify as borderline here. However, the Bouncer API requires two complex data structures (a mailing list object and a message object) to be passed in. That pretty clearly is covered in the second paragraph of that FAQ, not the third. Sorry. Like many in the Mailman community, I lean to the permissive side of the free software movement. I'd like to say "sure, you can do that." But you'd be at risk of being sued (by the FSF, no less) if you did. IANAL etc etc, and you might want to get a more authoritative opinion from the FSF itself. From egli at allink.ch Fri Nov 5 18:36:51 2010 From: egli at allink.ch (Marc Egli) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 18:36:51 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Can i use the Bouncer API a Programm wich is not GPL? In-Reply-To: <87r5ezhfqt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <58C50E65-760F-4F2F-9AE4-F348185EDD62@allink.ch> <87r5ezhfqt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <593E50D7-8D3B-45E3-9908-E0034399B3DC@allink.ch> Am 05.11.2010 um 17:55 schrieb Stephen J. Turnbull: > The plugin really needs to be designed as a separate program with a > single entry point and enumerated options (at most, with simple data > types like strings and integers as arguments) to qualify as borderline > here. However, the Bouncer API requires two complex data structures > (a mailing list object and a message object) to be passed in. That > pretty clearly is covered in the second paragraph of that FAQ, not the > third. > > Sorry. Like many in the Mailman community, I lean to the permissive > side of the free software movement. I'd like to say "sure, you can do > that." But you'd be at risk of being sued (by the FSF, no less) if > you did. IANAL etc etc, and you might want to get a more > authoritative opinion from the FSF itself. Ok but i can add a script to Mailman which accepts a path to a mail file, then reads that file and gives a csv list back. In my application i can exec this script. The script is under GPL and could bee added to Mailman if anyone else finds it useful. Am i right? Marc From barry at list.org Fri Nov 5 23:06:41 2010 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 18:06:41 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Can i use the Bouncer API a Programm wich is not GPL? In-Reply-To: <593E50D7-8D3B-45E3-9908-E0034399B3DC@allink.ch> References: <58C50E65-760F-4F2F-9AE4-F348185EDD62@allink.ch> <87r5ezhfqt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <593E50D7-8D3B-45E3-9908-E0034399B3DC@allink.ch> Message-ID: <20101105180641.3f8624c3@mission> On Nov 05, 2010, at 06:36 PM, Marc Egli wrote: >Ok but i can add a script to Mailman which accepts a path to a mail file, >then reads that file and gives a csv list back. In my application i can exec >this script. The script is under GPL and could bee added to Mailman if anyone >else finds it useful. Am i right? Seems like a reasonable and fairly easy technical solution. You should still contact the FSF about the legality of it. -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stephen at xemacs.org Sat Nov 6 16:02:46 2010 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 00:02:46 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Can i use the Bouncer API a Programm wich is not GPL? In-Reply-To: <593E50D7-8D3B-45E3-9908-E0034399B3DC@allink.ch> References: <58C50E65-760F-4F2F-9AE4-F348185EDD62@allink.ch> <87r5ezhfqt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <593E50D7-8D3B-45E3-9908-E0034399B3DC@allink.ch> Message-ID: <87pquih4vd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Marc Egli writes: > Ok but i can add a script to Mailman which accepts a path to a mail > file, then reads that file and gives a csv list back. Yes, I would think so. The FSF likes to bluster that programs running in separate processes that interact with each other via standard interprocess channels (eg, stdio) could be considered a single work under copyright law, but I don't see how. The calling program never contains a physical copy of the GPLed code (or a derivative such as a compiled and partially linked DLL). In the case of the GPLed script you're talking about, you don't use the Mailman code code it's based on in your application, you use its output. The GPL explicitly disclaims any restrictions on the output. Furthermore, it seems to me that your script would be independently useful to folks like Mark Shapiro who support users whose bounce processing seems wonky; it's clearly a separate work, not part of your application. Since your earlier proposal is functionally equivalent to this, it would be nice if the GPL could somehow allow you to avoid the fork tax. But I don't think it can; copyright ends as soon as you allow someone to make a copy, you can no longer control the use of the copy. So this would probably be a huge loophole for abuse of GPLed plugins. Again, IANAL, so you could ask the FSF to be absolutely sure. RMS and his lawyers are quite scrupulously honest about this; they will happily tell you that your use is permissible if it is (and equally happily go on to tell you that you really ought to be using GPL for your own work). From ruizhe.z.g at gmail.com Thu Nov 18 13:29:13 2010 From: ruizhe.z.g at gmail.com (ruizhe zhao) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 20:29:13 +0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Hi everybody Message-ID: Hi everybody, I'm Chinese. My company use mailman to manage the maillist, and I was hired last week for matain the mailman. At yesterday, I found a problem, when the maillist manager get a message(mail) that is to notify the manager a pending mail need to confirm, and then open the second attachment and reply it. If some email client encode the first plain/text content of the manager's confirmation mail to base64, and then the confirmation will be failed. Is this a problem? Any echo is appreciated. So sorry for my poor english. From mark at msapiro.net Thu Nov 18 19:05:17 2010 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 10:05:17 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Hi everybody In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ruizhe zhao wrote: >Hi everybody, I'm Chinese. My company use mailman to manage the maillist, >and I was hired last week for matain the mailman. >At yesterday, I found a problem, when the maillist manager get a >message(mail) that is to notify the manager a pending mail need to confirm, >and then open the second attachment and reply it. If some email client >encode the first plain/text content of the manager's confirmation mail to >base64, and then the confirmation will be failed. > >Is this a problem? If you are trying to approve the original post by including "Approved: password" as the first line of the reply, and the post is discarded instead, this is a bug. I have just created a bug report at , and I think the attached MailList.patch.txt patch will fix it. I would appreciate your trying the patch and reporting back. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: MailList.patch.txt URL: From jessy.cowansharp at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 18:48:34 2010 From: jessy.cowansharp at gmail.com (Jessy Kate) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 12:48:34 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Errors installing Mailman 3.0 Message-ID: Hi All, I'm trying to get mailman 3.0 installed in a fresh virtualenv with python 2.6 on ubuntu 10.04. I've sent messages in the irc channel a few times, but no response there. Is the channel still an active place to get help? I've stumbled my way successfully through a few errors, but need some help now. I've been following the instructions at: http://packages.python.org/mailman/docs/START.html And using the package at http://pypi.python.org/pypi/mailman/3.0.0a6 After running bootstrap.py, when i run bin/buildout, i get the following buildout errors:: Develop: '/home/jessy/src/mailman/mailman-3.0.0a6/.' While: Installing. Getting section docs. Initializing part docs. Error: Missing option: buildout:find-links And then: > > Develop: '/home/jessy/src/mailman/mailman-3.0.0a6/.' While: Installing. Getting section docs. Initializing part docs. Error: Missing option: buildout:allow-hosts Both of these were fixed by adding them as empty variables to my buildout.cfg: find-links = allow-hosts = I then get two zc.buildout recipe errors-- specifically for z3c.recipe.sphinxdoc, and z3c.recipe.filetemplate. Installed those using pip, and kept going. But now I get: (mailman)1219 jessy at moltencore:~/src/mailman/mailman-3.0.0a6$ bin/buildout Develop: '/home/jessy/src/mailman/mailman-3.0.0a6/.' While: Installing. Getting section filetemplates. Initializing part filetemplates. An internal error occured due to a bug in either zc.buildout or in a recipe being used: Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/zc/buildout/buildout.py", line 1660, in main getattr(buildout, command)(args) File "/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/zc/buildout/buildout.py", line 416, in install [self[part]['recipe'] for part in install_parts] File "/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/zc/buildout/buildout.py", line 964, in __getitem__ options._initialize() File "/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/zc/buildout/buildout.py", line 1051, in _initialize self.recipe = recipe_class(buildout, name, self) File "/development/virtualenv/mailman/lib/python2.6/site-packages/z3c/recipe/filetemplate/__init__.py", line 63, in __init__ orig_distributions, ws = eggs.working_set() File "/development/virtualenv/mailman/lib/python2.6/site-packages/zc.recipe.egg-1.3.2-py2.6.egg/zc/recipe/egg/egg.py", line 101, in working_set **kw) TypeError: install() got an unexpected keyword argument 'include_site_packages' Not sure if may this has to do with the buildout.cfg variables I added. Anyway, help/advice on how to move forward would be much appreciated. Thank you! Jessy -- Jessy Cowan-Sharp http://jessykate.com From barry at list.org Mon Nov 22 21:28:12 2010 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 15:28:12 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Errors installing Mailman 3.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101122152812.3ac1fe54@mission> On Nov 20, 2010, at 12:48 PM, Jessy Kate wrote: >I'm trying to get mailman 3.0 installed in a fresh virtualenv with python >2.6 on ubuntu 10.04. I've sent messages in the irc channel a few times, but >no response there. Is the channel still an active place to get help? It is, but the traffic is low so I don't watch it too closely. Please 'ping barry' to get my attention about Mailman 3 issues. I'm always online during working hours EST (currently UTC-5), though I will be offline Thursday and Friday for the USA Thanksgiving holiday. >I've stumbled my way successfully through a few errors, but need some help >now. I've been following the instructions at: >http://packages.python.org/mailman/docs/START.html > >And using the package at >http://pypi.python.org/pypi/mailman/3.0.0a6 > >After running bootstrap.py, when i run bin/buildout, i get the following >buildout errors:: One thing to keep in mind. Since the a6 release, a new version of buildout was released too. This bug affects Mailman: https://bugs.launchpad.net/zc.buildout/+bug/659231 A workaround is to add this to buildout.cfg: include-site-packages = false and this fix is in the bzr trunk. However, even with this change, I am having trouble building a6 from the tarball, either inside or outside the virtualenv. I don't know what the problem is. >While: > > Installing. > > Getting section docs. > > Initializing part docs. > >Error: Missing option: buildout:allow-hosts > > >Both of these were fixed by adding them as empty variables to my >buildout.cfg: > >find-links = > >allow-hosts = I have not had to add these. >I then get two zc.buildout recipe errors-- specifically for >z3c.recipe.sphinxdoc, and z3c.recipe.filetemplate. Installed those using >pip, and kept going. But now I get: > >(mailman)1219 jessy at moltencore:~/src/mailman/mailman-3.0.0a6$ bin/buildout > >Develop: '/home/jessy/src/mailman/mailman-3.0.0a6/.' >While: > Installing. > Getting section filetemplates. > Initializing part filetemplates. > >An internal error occured due to a bug in either zc.buildout or in a > >recipe being used: > >Traceback (most recent call last): > > File "/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/zc/buildout/buildout.py", line >1660, in main > > getattr(buildout, command)(args) > > File "/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/zc/buildout/buildout.py", line 416, >in install > > [self[part]['recipe'] for part in install_parts] > > File "/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/zc/buildout/buildout.py", line 964, >in __getitem__ > > options._initialize() > > File "/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/zc/buildout/buildout.py", line >1051, in _initialize > > self.recipe = recipe_class(buildout, name, self) > > File >"/development/virtualenv/mailman/lib/python2.6/site-packages/z3c/recipe/filetemplate/__init__.py", >line 63, in __init__ > > orig_distributions, ws = eggs.working_set() > > File >"/development/virtualenv/mailman/lib/python2.6/site-packages/zc.recipe.egg-1.3.2-py2.6.egg/zc/recipe/egg/egg.py", >line 101, in working_set > > **kw) > >TypeError: install() got an unexpected keyword argument >'include_site_packages' This looks related to the line added to a7's buildout.cfg above. However, as I mentioned that doesn't seem to fix the problem for a6. When I build a tarball for a7 from the bzr trunk, I have no problem unpacking the tarball and building it using the instructions on the web, with or without a virtualenv. I'm doing all this on Ubuntu 10.10. The best advice I can give right now is to grab the Bazaar trunk by doing: bzr branch lp:mailman and running it from there. Cheers, -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: not available URL: