From philipp_subx at redfish-solutions.com  Tue May  4 20:32:42 2010
From: philipp_subx at redfish-solutions.com (Philip A. Prindeville)
Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 12:32:42 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Ham, mailing lists, and oddball character sets
Message-ID: <4BE0684A.2040904@redfish-solutions.com>

Hi.

I work a bit in OSS and contribute to mimedefang and spamassassin, and
myself am on about 70 mailing lists.

I notice that some of these lists that are open to outside mailings are
magnets for spam.

As a consequence, the end-recipients of these lists can't "trust" mail
coming from these lists, and if we filter it (and reject it), we run the
risk of being auto-unsubscribed for too many delivery failures...

It's a thorny issue.

In a perfect world, all MUA's would comply with the following
recommendation:

RFC 2046, last paragraph of section 4.1.2:

   In general, composition software should always use the "lowest common
   denominator" character set possible.  For example, if a body contains
   only US-ASCII characters, it SHOULD be marked as being in the US-
   ASCII character set, not ISO-8859-1, which, like all the ISO-8859
   family of character sets, is a superset of US-ASCII.  More generally,
   if a widely-used character set is a subset of another character set,
   and a body contains only characters in the widely-used subset, it
   should be labelled as being in that subset.  This will increase the
   chances that the recipient will be able to view the resulting entity
   correctly.



And thereby, it would be trivial to bounce a message sent to an
English-language only mailing list that wasn't encoded in USASCII or
Latin1 (iso-8859-1) as the charset.

But alas they don't.

So end-users mail systems end up having to do this, which creates all
sorts of backscatter to the mailing list, etc.

What if mailing list exploders did the following?

When you receive a message that has text/plain parts that aren't
"charset=usascii" or "charset=latin1" attempt to transcode the parts
into one of these (in that order, until success).

If the transcoding fails, reject the message.

Otherwise, substitute the rewritten parts in the forwarded message.

Yes, I know that it's not a good thing to rewrite messages...  but most
mailing lists do a fair amount of message munging anyway (to the point
that PGP becomes useless, for instance).

What do you all think?

It doesn't have to be the default behavior...  But it would definitely
be handy to be an option.

Thanks,

-Philip


From anna.granudd at gmail.com  Wed May  5 18:29:07 2010
From: anna.granudd at gmail.com (Anna Granudd)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 18:29:07 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] installing Mailman 3.0
Message-ID: <q2w104514401005050929w7e7a67band83bd4b18f9ef162@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
I downloaded the latest Mailman branch from Launchpad (using bzr branch
lp:mailman) and tried installing it but ran into some trouble. The commands
I was told to use for the installation were: "python bootstrap.py" followed
by "bin/buildout" and "bin/test" (I assume the bin-folder will be created
after the bootstrap file is run since I don't have it right now). However,
running the first command I encounter the following error:
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "bootstrap.py", line 69, in <module>
ws.find(pkg_resources.Requirement.parse('setuptools')).location
AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'location'

The file belong to my user which was also used for the python command
(meaning I did not use sudo to run it, although doing so gives me the same
error). Any tips how I should proceed to install Mailman 3.0 and should the
commands be run using sudo? I should probably add a user "mailman" instead
of using my own, but right now I'm more interested in getting the whole
thing to run. I currently run Kubuntu 10.04 and Python v. 2.6.5 if that
might have something to do with the error message.

Thanks,
Anna

From cmpalmer at garp.metalab.unc.edu  Wed May  5 21:39:32 2010
From: cmpalmer at garp.metalab.unc.edu (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Crist=F3bal?= Palmer)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 15:39:32 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Ham, mailing lists,
 and oddball character sets
In-Reply-To: <4BE0684A.2040904@redfish-solutions.com>
References: <4BE0684A.2040904@redfish-solutions.com>
Message-ID: <20100505193932.GB7691@garp.metalab.unc.edu>

On Tue, May 04, 2010 at 12:32:42PM -0600, Philip A. Prindeville wrote:
> 
> And thereby, it would be trivial to bounce a message sent to an
> English-language only mailing list that wasn't encoded in USASCII or
> Latin1 (iso-8859-1) as the charset.
> 
> But alas they don't.

It still wouldn't be trivial even if they did. What about people who
put their normal, proper names in their signatures. Maybe they're
Greek. Maybe they're Taiwanese....

Cheers,
-- 
Crist?bal Palmer
ibiblio.org
metalab.unc.edu

From stephen at xemacs.org  Thu May  6 03:30:16 2010
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 10:30:16 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Ham, mailing lists,
	and oddball character sets
In-Reply-To: <20100505193932.GB7691@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
References: <4BE0684A.2040904@redfish-solutions.com>
	<20100505193932.GB7691@garp.metalab.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <87fx256clz.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Crist?bal Palmer writes:
 > On Tue, May 04, 2010 at 12:32:42PM -0600, Philip A. Prindeville wrote:
 > > 
 > > And thereby, it would be trivial to bounce a message sent to an
 > > English-language only mailing list that wasn't encoded in USASCII or
 > > Latin1 (iso-8859-1) as the charset.
 > > 
 > > But alas they don't.
 > 
 > It still wouldn't be trivial even if they did. What about people who
 > put their normal, proper names in their signatures. Maybe they're
 > Greek. Maybe they're Taiwanese....

Or maybe they're returned ex-pats with fond memories (and perhaps
family) of their former host countries.  There is also the problem of
Windose-1252, with various punctuation marks not available in ISO
8859-1, not to mention the even further extended set available in
Unicode.  Let's not annoy the punctuation pedants!

But Philip already addressed these issues by saying make it
configurable.  I think that's reasonable as long as the list owner is
made aware that she's probably going to trash posts from some of her
members, and sooner, rather than later.  If she wants to blame the
victims for not following the rules and the spammers for the rules,
that's her problem, no?

In any case, people with horked MUAs are surely used to being
maltreated by software; they're almost certainly using MS or Apple
products, no?<wink>

From jdk2588 at gmail.com  Thu May  6 11:20:44 2010
From: jdk2588 at gmail.com (Jaideep Khandelwal)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 14:50:44 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] installing Mailman 3.0
In-Reply-To: <q2w104514401005050929w7e7a67band83bd4b18f9ef162@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2w104514401005050929w7e7a67band83bd4b18f9ef162@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l2z8a91af651005060220gcb2665bdq89f5b7e683c2d544@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Well this is the same problem I am too facing , I tried with the Ubuntu 9.10
were I too get the same error what Anne has posted.
Please a quick review will help us in installing mailman 3.0

Thanks

Regards
Jaideep

From jdk2588 at gmail.com  Thu May  6 11:46:53 2010
From: jdk2588 at gmail.com (Jaideep Khandelwal)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 15:16:53 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] installing Mailman 3.0
In-Reply-To: <l2z8a91af651005060220gcb2665bdq89f5b7e683c2d544@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2w104514401005050929w7e7a67band83bd4b18f9ef162@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2z8a91af651005060220gcb2665bdq89f5b7e683c2d544@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <m2t8a91af651005060246i6905e17dx5b792c52e01ac8b9@mail.gmail.com>

Hi
I tried installing Mailman 3.0a5 , over Fedora 12 , I did the following
steps :

1.) python2.6 bootstrap.py

    It worked successfully

2.) sudo bin/buildout

It gets stuck when trying to get the distribution for munepy, I also tried
to download it manually but seems that the links are missing from
[1]<http://packages.python.org/munepy/>.

Thanks

Regards
Jaideep

From barry at list.org  Thu May  6 14:19:02 2010
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 08:19:02 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] installing Mailman 3.0
In-Reply-To: <q2w104514401005050929w7e7a67band83bd4b18f9ef162@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2w104514401005050929w7e7a67band83bd4b18f9ef162@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100506081902.7aac63ca@heresy>

On May 05, 2010, at 06:29 PM, Anna Granudd wrote:

>I downloaded the latest Mailman branch from Launchpad (using bzr branch
>lp:mailman) and tried installing it but ran into some trouble. The commands
>I was told to use for the installation were: "python bootstrap.py" followed
>by "bin/buildout" and "bin/test" (I assume the bin-folder will be created
>after the bootstrap file is run since I don't have it right now). However,
>running the first command I encounter the following error:
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>File "bootstrap.py", line 69, in <module>
>ws.find(pkg_resources.Requirement.parse('setuptools')).location
>AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'location'
>
>The file belong to my user which was also used for the python command
>(meaning I did not use sudo to run it, although doing so gives me the same
>error). Any tips how I should proceed to install Mailman 3.0 and should the
>commands be run using sudo? I should probably add a user "mailman" instead
>of using my own, but right now I'm more interested in getting the whole
>thing to run. I currently run Kubuntu 10.04 and Python v. 2.6.5 if that
>might have something to do with the error message.

I'm on Ubuntu 10.04 with the stock Python 2.6.5, so all that should work, and
you should not need to be root to build and run Mailman in your own working
directories.

I /think/ what's happening is that zc.buildout 1.5.0b2 was recently pushed to
the Cheeseshop and that has some bugs that broke our build.  I definitely
tried this a few days ago and it worked just fine.  I've seen some recently
messages about a new, broken version of zc.buildout, and I'll check with some
folks in the know a little later today.

-Barry
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From barry at list.org  Thu May  6 14:20:19 2010
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 08:20:19 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] installing Mailman 3.0
In-Reply-To: <m2t8a91af651005060246i6905e17dx5b792c52e01ac8b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <q2w104514401005050929w7e7a67band83bd4b18f9ef162@mail.gmail.com>
	<l2z8a91af651005060220gcb2665bdq89f5b7e683c2d544@mail.gmail.com>
	<m2t8a91af651005060246i6905e17dx5b792c52e01ac8b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100506082019.5f3b9efe@heresy>

On May 06, 2010, at 03:16 PM, Jaideep Khandelwal wrote:

>Hi
>I tried installing Mailman 3.0a5 , over Fedora 12 , I did the following
>steps :
>
>1.) python2.6 bootstrap.py
>
>    It worked successfully
>
>2.) sudo bin/buildout
>
>It gets stuck when trying to get the distribution for munepy, I also tried
>to download it manually but seems that the links are missing from
>[1]<http://packages.python.org/munepy/>.

Yes, 3.0a5 will not work because the munepy package was renamed.  The current
bzr trunk has that fix so you should grab that instead.  Of course, you'll
still hit the zc.buildout problem for now.

-Barry
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From barry at list.org  Fri May 14 15:22:02 2010
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 15:22:02 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] DKIM and MLMs draft RFC
Message-ID: <20100514152202.2ffe345d@heresy>

Hello folks,

I wanted to point people to this draft RFC:

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kucherawy-dkim-lists/

by Murray S. Kucherawy, addressing DKIM issues related to mailing list
managers.  Murray has contacted Mark and I, and I'd like to invite your input
on this mailing list.

-Barry

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From iane at sussex.ac.uk  Fri May 14 16:13:21 2010
From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart)
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 15:13:21 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] DKIM and MLMs draft RFC
In-Reply-To: <20100514152202.2ffe345d@heresy>
References: <20100514152202.2ffe345d@heresy>
Message-ID: <A82CEC8A6A9708451006BB2E@paine.local>



--On 14 May 2010 15:22:02 +0200 Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org> wrote:

> Hello folks,
>
> I wanted to point people to this draft RFC:
>
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kucherawy-dkim-lists/
>
> by Murray S. Kucherawy, addressing DKIM issues related to mailing list
> managers.  Murray has contacted Mark and I, and I'd like to invite your
> input on this mailing list.
>
> -Barry


I'm curious about this paragraph:
"Common modifications include:
   o  Add header fields such as Reply-To:, Sender:, Resent-Sender:
      ([MAIL]), List-Id: ([LIST-ID]) or List-Unsubscribe: ([LIST-URLS]).
      In some cases, such header fields are replaced if the original
      message already contained them."

Does mailman replace such headers?

Is that desirable for umbrella lists? For example, if list B is subscribed 
to list A, then I guess the list-unsubscribe header does need to be 
replaced, since it's misleading to pass  unsubscription details for list A 
to the subscriber of list B.

Is it still desirable for Mailman 3.0? I guess it'll be less common, since 
a single site will replace umbrella lists with rosters. However, if list A 
and list B are on different sites, the problem will persist.

What happens with digest messages? Is each digested message packaged 
sufficiently such that a DKIM message that it carries will not be broken? 
Is that possible? Does the idea of packaging single messages (like a digest 
of one) have any merit?



-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
01273-873148 x3148
For new support requests, see http://www.sussex.ac.uk/its/help/



From jik at kamens.brookline.ma.us  Tue May 25 14:30:26 2010
From: jik at kamens.brookline.ma.us (Jonathan Kamens)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 08:30:26 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding to the FAQ Wiki
Message-ID: <4BFBC2E2.9050008@kamens.brookline.ma.us>

Greetings,

Last night, I sent a message to mailman-users pointing people at a 
turnkey, mimedefang-based solution to the problem of Mailman footers on 
MIME messages not displaying properly in some mail clients.  That 
message has not yet been approved for the list, since I just joined it, 
so I've attached it here as well.

I wanted to add a description of and link to my new solution on the 
relevant page of the Mailman Wiki 
(http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030707), so I 
created an account for myself on the Wiki, but even after doing that, I 
can't find any way to edit the page.

I suppose this means that either I'm missing something, or new Wiki 
users are not granted write access to the Wiki by default.  I searched a 
bit but couldn't find any obvious explanation of this policy or the 
right channel for requesting write access to the Wiki.

I assume there are people on this list who have write and admin access 
to the Wiki, so could I ask for someone to either (a) give me write 
access, at least to the page referenced above, so I can add something 
about my solution to it, or (b) add a description of my solution and a 
link to it (http://stuff.mit.edu/%7Ejik/software/mailman_mimedefang/) on 
the Wiki page?

Thanks,

Jonathan Kamens

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From mark at msapiro.net  Tue May 25 16:03:52 2010
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 07:03:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding to the FAQ Wiki
In-Reply-To: <4BFBC2E2.9050008@kamens.brookline.ma.us>
Message-ID: <PC19520100525070352006207de3832@msapiro>

Jonathan Kamens wrote:
>
>I wanted to add a description of and link to my new solution on the 
>relevant page of the Mailman Wiki 
>(http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030707), so I 
>created an account for myself on the Wiki, but even after doing that, I 
>can't find any way to edit the page.
>
>I suppose this means that either I'm missing something, or new Wiki 
>users are not granted write access to the Wiki by default.  I searched a 
>bit but couldn't find any obvious explanation of this policy or the 
>right channel for requesting write access to the Wiki.


You now have write permission on the Wiki.

I have also updated the note at the top left of the Wiki Dashboard to
indicate that permission is required and how to request it.

Sorry for the confusion. We keep changing things in an attempt to
control Wiki spam, and the documentation doesn't always keep up.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From barry at list.org  Thu May 27 01:52:57 2010
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:52:57 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] We have a winner!
Message-ID: <20100526195257.709f12b4@heresy>

I am very pleased to announce the winner of the 2010 GNU Mailman logo
contest.  By an almost 2-to-1 margin, you voted for this logo:

http://www.list.org/images/logo2010.jpg

Congratulations Andrija Arsic!  A little bit about Andrija: originally from
Trstenik, Serbia and now studying IT technology in Belgrade, Andrija is a
self-employed, part-time graphic designer, specialising in the fields of
corporate identity (logo) design, web design, print design and branding with
the majority of his time spent designing and implementing marketing promotions
for businesses such as logos, websites, letterhead, business cards, packaging
and more. I'm glad that he also contributes to free software, as I think his
winning logo is spectacular.

My thanks and appreciation to all the artists who contributed logos to the
contest.  All the designs are very nice, and in their own way, capture the
spirit of GNU Mailman.  Thanks also to all of you who voted!

Cheers,
-Barry

Full announcement: http://www.wefearchange.org/2010/05/we-have-winner.html
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From bibek at yipl.com.np  Thu May 27 08:32:44 2010
From: bibek at yipl.com.np (Bibek Shrestha)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 12:17:44 +0545
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Listen to or hook into mailman subscription
	system
Message-ID: <AANLkTikpoWIuO35sfCcnjcv9XQpvgufHryNUgF0lPMXK@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

If i have to hook into user's subscriptions (new/edit/remove) and then
perform specific non mailman related activities, how do I go about it?
--
Bibek Shrestha
bibekshrestha at gmail dot com
Blog: http://bibekshrestha.com.np
Twitter: http://twitter.com/bibstha

From barry at list.org  Thu May 27 17:23:18 2010
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 11:23:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Listen to or hook into mailman
 subscription system
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikpoWIuO35sfCcnjcv9XQpvgufHryNUgF0lPMXK@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikpoWIuO35sfCcnjcv9XQpvgufHryNUgF0lPMXK@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100527112318.12c350a4@heresy>

On May 27, 2010, at 12:17 PM, Bibek Shrestha wrote:

>If i have to hook into user's subscriptions (new/edit/remove) and then
>perform specific non mailman related activities, how do I go about it?

In Mailman 3 we use the zope.event system to broadcast certain changes.  I'm
not positive that subscription events are all generated, but it would be very
easy to add them.

So with that, you could write an extension or plugin that just listens for the
interesting events, and then do whatever you want with them.

-Barry
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From mark at msapiro.net  Thu May 27 17:43:02 2010
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 08:43:02 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Listen to or hook into mailman
	subscriptionsystem
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikpoWIuO35sfCcnjcv9XQpvgufHryNUgF0lPMXK@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952010052708430209538344a5bb@msapiro>

Bibek Shrestha wrote:
>
>If i have to hook into user's subscriptions (new/edit/remove) and then
>perform specific non mailman related activities, how do I go about it?


Barry has answered for MM3. For MM 2.1, there are no hooks for this
built in. You would have to add your own.

The most elegant way to do this would be create your own MemberAdaptor
as a subclass of whatever MemberAdaptor you are currently using.
Mailman by default uses OldStyleMemberships.OldStyleMemberships which
itself is a subclass of the generic MemberAdaptor.MemberAdaptor class.

You could create MyMemberAdaptor.py in the Mailman/ directory to contain

from Mailman import OldStyleMemberships

class MyMemberAdaptor(OldStyleMemberships.OldStyleMemberships):

and then override those methods you want to hook into.

Then, there are a couple of ways to enable this MemberAdaptor. To
enable it for one or a few lists, place a file named extend.py in the
lists/LISTNAME/ directory for the list(s). This file contains

from Mailman.MyMemberAdaptor import MyMemberAdaptor
def extend(mlist):
    mlist._memberadaptor = MyMemberAdaptor(mlist)

To enable it for all lists, you could patch MailList.py, adding

from Mailman.MyMemberAdaptor import MyMemberAdaptor

and changing

        # Default membership adaptor class
        self._memberadaptor = OldStyleMemberships(self)

to

        # Default membership adaptor class
        self._memberadaptor = MyMemberAdaptor(self)


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From wghimire at gmail.com  Mon May 31 14:09:21 2010
From: wghimire at gmail.com (Diwaker Ghimire)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 17:54:21 +0545
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Hello
Message-ID: <AANLkTin3gc4GKaVtJMtsQkyOfwla7NboqO1-HLYBLhfk@mail.gmail.com>

I am working on mailman, I need to do some changes that i have to intercept
subscriptions comming to our mailing list so that i can work with it.

i tried to subclass OldStyleMemberships (succeed in hooking though) but
could not find which of the class member is called during subscription.

Is there any method that i missed or i doing the wrong way .. What should i
do for this task.


dwaker,
>From Nepal

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon May 31 16:15:52 2010
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 07:15:52 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Hello
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin3gc4GKaVtJMtsQkyOfwla7NboqO1-HLYBLhfk@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1952010053107155202342d9ce6de@msapiro>

Diwaker Ghimire wrote:

>I am working on mailman, I need to do some changes that i have to intercept
>subscriptions comming to our mailing list so that i can work with it.
>
>i tried to subclass OldStyleMemberships (succeed in hooking though) but
>could not find which of the class member is called during subscription.


addNewMember() is called to subscribe a member to a list.


>Is there any method that i missed or i doing the wrong way .. What should i
>do for this task.


You can read the documentation of all the MemberAdaptor methods in
Mailman/MemberAdaptor.py.

Note that addNewMember() is only called to actually add a member to the
list. If you are trying to hook in to the subscription process
earlier, e.g. before it is confirmed by the user or approved by the
admin, you will need to hook into the AddMember() method in
Mailman/MailList.py.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan