From shinaota at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 12:35:30 2010 From: shinaota at gmail.com (=?KOI8-R?B?6czY0SD+ydPU0cvP1w==?=) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:35:30 +0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Add mail to database Message-ID: Hello I want to store mails in database, so, can you explain in what module emails are filtered? After that I can implement my "add-mail-to-database" function. For example, then unregistred user send a message. Sincerely, Elias. From skip at pobox.com Thu Apr 1 18:59:05 2010 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 11:59:05 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain Message-ID: <19380.53465.675302.921639@montanaro.dyndns.org> Perhaps this is on the feature request list already, or better yet, Barry borrowed Guido's time machine when I wasn't looking, however... I help administer a number of python.org mailing lists. MM sends out subscription reminders on the first of each month. This inevitably leads to a huge number of mail bounces many of which MM doesn't understand. The python.org postmaster folk then get to go in and manually remove a ton of email addresses. (Looks like about 100 this month. I'm sure other sites have to handle many more such bounces.) I don't know how to automate this. The best thing I can think of to do is to write an Emacs macro which copies a highlighted email address, pops over to a shell mode window ssh'd into mail.python.org and runs remove_members with the given address. That's still more manual than I would like, but given the variability in bounce formats that seems about as good as I can do without expending a lot of effort. I realize that getting Mailman to grok more rejection notice formats is a worthwhile goal, however I think it would also be helpful to spread the pain of invalid email addresses more evenly through the month, at least across mailing lists but ideally within mailing lists. Notification day for any given email might be ord(email[0]) % 28 + 1 This would be close enough for gummint work (the 29th, 30th and 31st would be declared to be postmaster holidays). -- Skip Montanaro - skip at pobox.com - http://www.smontanaro.net/ From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk Thu Apr 1 19:16:27 2010 From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 18:16:27 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain In-Reply-To: <19380.53465.675302.921639@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <19380.53465.675302.921639@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20100401171627.GN2886@amyl.org.uk> On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 11:59:05AM -0500, skip at pobox.com wrote: > Perhaps this is on the feature request list already, or better yet, Barry > borrowed Guido's time machine when I wasn't looking, however... > > I help administer a number of python.org mailing lists. MM sends out > subscription reminders on the first of each month. This inevitably leads to > a huge number of mail bounces many of which MM doesn't understand. The > python.org postmaster folk then get to go in and manually remove a ton of > email addresses. (Looks like about 100 this month. I'm sure other sites > have to handle many more such bounces.) I don't know how to automate this. > The best thing I can think of to do is to write an Emacs macro which copies > a highlighted email address, pops over to a shell mode window ssh'd into > mail.python.org and runs remove_members with the given address. That's > still more manual than I would like, but given the variability in bounce > formats that seems about as good as I can do without expending a lot of > effort. shove all the postmaster@ mails into one mailbox, and... awk/grep the email addresses and list name as a (c|t)sv'd line; select a list, and feed the email addresses to remove_members ? (maybe doing a check on the body content, too) cron that to happen at $interval, on Mailman-day +n, perhaps? I don't really have this problem, but very few of my lists (I think it may be ~300 now) send reminders. -- ``Should not the Society of Indexers be known as Indexers, Society of, The?'' (Keith Waterhouse) From barry at list.org Thu Apr 1 19:46:38 2010 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:46:38 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain In-Reply-To: <19380.53465.675302.921639@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <19380.53465.675302.921639@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20100401134638.004a8c00@heresy> On Apr 01, 2010, at 11:59 AM, skip at pobox.com wrote: >I realize that getting Mailman to grok more rejection notice formats is a >worthwhile goal, however I think it would also be helpful to spread the pain >of invalid email addresses more evenly through the month, at least across >mailing lists but ideally within mailing lists. Notification day for any >given email might be > > ord(email[0]) % 28 + 1 > >This would be close enough for gummint work (the 29th, 30th and 31st would >be declared to be postmaster holidays). Or how about we just get rid of them? :) -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk Thu Apr 1 20:03:51 2010 From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 19:03:51 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM3 WUI :: Memberships Management Message-ID: <20100401180351.GO2886@amyl.org.uk> Hiya, I've had a search through the Wiki, and can't see an answer to this, and don't recall anything in the archive/can't get the right search terms. I'm wondering if with MM3, admins will be able to delegate the various aspects of admin-tasks to owners/other users -- e.g., I want to be able to allow person X to just be able to add/remove users from a given list; I want to allow person Y to be able to change archiving policies for list B. Is that something that's in the pipeline, already? If not, could it be? (my python really is quite terrible.) -- ``What lawyers call intellectual property is no more than theft from the public domain.'' (Andy Mueller-Maguhn) From mark at msapiro.net Thu Apr 1 20:09:36 2010 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 11:09:36 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain In-Reply-To: <19380.53465.675302.921639@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: skip at pobox.com wrote: >Perhaps this is on the feature request list already, or better yet, Barry >borrowed Guido's time machine when I wasn't looking, however... As barry already noted, there will be no reminders in MM 3. >I help administer a number of python.org mailing lists. MM sends out >subscription reminders on the first of each month. This inevitably leads to >a huge number of mail bounces many of which MM doesn't understand. MM does not try to understand them because it can't handle them automatically. See the FAQ at >The >python.org postmaster folk then get to go in and manually remove a ton of >email addresses. (Looks like about 100 this month. I'm sure other sites >have to handle many more such bounces.) I don't know how to automate this. >The best thing I can think of to do is to write an Emacs macro which copies >a highlighted email address, pops over to a shell mode window ssh'd into >mail.python.org and runs remove_members with the given address. That's >still more manual than I would like, but given the variability in bounce >formats that seems about as good as I can do without expending a lot of >effort. > >I realize that getting Mailman to grok more rejection notice formats is a >worthwhile goal, Mailman probably already can recognize almost all of these. The problem is not in the recognition, it's in what to do about them. In addition to the info in the above FAQ, there's lots of detail about this in comments in Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.py. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From skip at pobox.com Thu Apr 1 20:32:13 2010 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:32:13 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain In-Reply-To: <20100401134638.004a8c00@heresy> References: <19380.53465.675302.921639@montanaro.dyndns.org> <20100401134638.004a8c00@heresy> Message-ID: <19380.59053.115216.36861@montanaro.dyndns.org> Barry> Or how about we just get rid of them? :) I wasn't sure what you meant until I saw Mark's reply. I guess I wasn't listening to the silence between the notes. ;-) At any rate, that solves one problem but creates another, right? In MM3 how will you weed out bad email addresses? Again, this may already be accounted for somehow. If so, I'd be happy to learn how you do it without attempting to send email to an address then process the bounces. Skip From mark at msapiro.net Thu Apr 1 22:01:39 2010 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:01:39 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain In-Reply-To: <19380.59053.115216.36861@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: skip at pobox.com wrote: > >At any rate, that solves one problem but creates another, right? In MM3 how >will you weed out bad email addresses? Again, this may already be accounted >for somehow. If so, I'd be happy to learn how you do it without attempting >to send email to an address then process the bounces. If the list is active and the user's delivery is enabled, The list's bounce processing should take care of ultimately removing bouncing members. If it doesn't, the list's bounce processing needs to be adjusted. The dead addresses of concern, are those for which the user or admin disabled delivery before the address died. We have talked about some kind of periodic mailing from the list to all members. If we have such a thing, a bounce of that mail could identify such addresses. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From mark at msapiro.net Thu Apr 1 22:56:59 2010 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:56:59 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Add mail to database In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BB5089B.8020201@msapiro.net> On 4/1/2010 3:35 AM, ???? ???????? wrote: > Hello I want to store mails in database, so, can you explain in what module > emails are filtered? After that I can implement my "add-mail-to-database" > function. For example, then unregistred user send a message. Sincerely, > Elias. I am not sure what you are asking. If you want to know where in Mailman's processing a message can be held for approval, rejected or discarded, the answer is in several places depending on the specific reason. The global pipeline handlers SpamDetect, Moderate, Hold, MimeDel, Scrubber and Emergency can all hold, reject or discard a message depending on the message and the list configuration. If you want to store in your database only those messages which have been accepted for the list, consider using an external archiver to do this. See the documentation in Defaults.py for PUBLIC_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER and PRIVATE_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER. Also, see the FAQ at . If you'd rather not depend on the lists having archiving turned on, consider adding a custom handler to the pipeline somewhere between Emergency and the end. See the FAQ at . If what you are looking for is a way to store all incoming mail regardless of disposition, i.e., ahead of any filtering, consider adding a custom handler to the beginning of the pipeline. Finally, if what you want is a way to store only held, discarded and rejected mail, you'd probably need to do this in the exception handling of the _dopipeline() function in IncomingRunner.py -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From stephen at xemacs.org Fri Apr 2 04:17:18 2010 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 11:17:18 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM3 WUI :: Memberships Management In-Reply-To: <20100401180351.GO2886@amyl.org.uk> References: <20100401180351.GO2886@amyl.org.uk> Message-ID: <87ljd6r429.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Adam McGreggor writes: > I'm wondering if with MM3, admins will be able to delegate the various > aspects of admin-tasks to owners/other users -- e.g., I want to be > able to allow person X to just be able to add/remove users from a > given list; I want to allow person Y to be able to change archiving > policies for list B. > > Is that something that's in the pipeline, already? > > If not, could it be? (my python really is quite terrible.) You seem to know what you want. So why don't you write a spec, maybe design and even mockup screenshots? This is really important. One of the things I really hate about Zope 2 is the complexity of the delegation mechanism (the "security" tab in the ZMI). Let's please avoid that! From dandrews at visi.com Fri Apr 2 05:14:48 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 22:14:48 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain In-Reply-To: References: <19380.59053.115216.36861@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: At 03:01 PM 4/1/2010, Mark Sapiro wrote: >skip at pobox.com wrote: > > > >At any rate, that solves one problem but creates another, right? In MM3 how > >will you weed out bad email addresses? Again, this may already be accounted > >for somehow. If so, I'd be happy to learn how you do it without attempting > >to send email to an address then process the bounces. > > >If the list is active and the user's delivery is enabled, The list's >bounce processing should take care of ultimately removing bouncing >members. If it doesn't, the list's bounce processing needs to be >adjusted. > >The dead addresses of concern, are those for which the user or admin >disabled delivery before the address died. We have talked about some >kind of periodic mailing from the list to all members. If we have such >a thing, a bounce of that mail could identify such addresses. Some other list software, I believe, has a feature that sends out a canned message once a month, such as list rules. I would like to see this in MM3 as I would like to send people the rules once a month, and not all my lists are that active, but still need to be in place and used occasionally. Dave >-- >Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, >San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan > >_______________________________________________ >Mailman-Developers mailing list >Mailman-Developers at python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers >Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 >Searchable Archives: >http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ >Unsubscribe: >http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/dandrews%40visi.com > >Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > > >__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 4993 (20100401) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com From stephen at xemacs.org Fri Apr 2 06:25:11 2010 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 13:25:11 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain In-Reply-To: References: <19380.59053.115216.36861@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <87d3yiqy54.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> David Andrews writes: > Some other list software, I believe, has a feature that sends out a > canned message once a month, such as list rules. I would like to see > this in MM3 -1. This is mission creep. A cron job will serve perfectly well. Something that assists in setting up such cron jobs (and/or generalizes to whatever weirdness Windows does instead of cron jobs) would be good as a contrib module, of course. From skip at pobox.com Fri Apr 2 11:21:11 2010 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 04:21:11 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain In-Reply-To: <87d3yiqy54.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <19380.59053.115216.36861@montanaro.dyndns.org> <87d3yiqy54.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <19381.46855.12428.427285@montanaro.dyndns.org> Stephen> David Andrews writes: >> Some other list software, I believe, has a feature that sends out a >> canned message once a month, such as list rules. I would like to see >> this in MM3 Stephen> -1. This is mission creep. A cron job will serve perfectly Stephen> well. Stephen> Something that assists in setting up such cron jobs (and/or Stephen> generalizes to whatever weirdness Windows does instead of cron Stephen> jobs) would be good as a contrib module, of course. I assume the monthly reminder emails have be canned for a reason. They do have the nice property of sending something to every subscribed address, even those who are set NOMAIL. I can do something from the command line (list_members? I use the command line so infrequently that I always have to look), but many list admins don't have shell access to their lists. I hope I didn't open a can of worms. MM2 doesn't seem to have a through-the-web way to gather all list members from the admin's web interface. Will MM3? That would at least allow admins to assemble a list for sending all-hands or canned messages manually. Skip From stephen at xemacs.org Fri Apr 2 14:30:33 2010 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 21:30:33 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain In-Reply-To: <19381.46855.12428.427285@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <19380.59053.115216.36861@montanaro.dyndns.org> <87d3yiqy54.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <19381.46855.12428.427285@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <87aatmqbo6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> skip at pobox.com writes: > I assume the monthly reminder emails have be canned for a reason. They do > have the nice property of sending something to every subscribed address, > even those who are set NOMAIL. That's a good point. I think a better way to handle this might be an Urgent flag (I guess we can't use Precedence for this, unfortunately, list mail should still be bulk in most cases) accompanied by an appropriate authentication. This could eventually be generalized so that users could filter (some users might want only Announce or above, others of more catholic tasts would go for Spam or better). That might (or might not) be a better idea than having PROJECT-discuss subscribed to PROJECT-announce. > MM2 doesn't seem to have a through-the-web way to gather all list > members from the admin's web interface. Will MM3? I hope so[1]; this is a FAQ anyway. Footnotes: [1] Ie, this should be done by Mailman 3's RESTful API, not an end-around by using an LDAP server or whatnot to hold the address db, and accessing the LDAP server outside of Mailman. From barry at list.org Fri Apr 2 16:28:26 2010 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:28:26 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain In-Reply-To: <87aatmqbo6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <19380.59053.115216.36861@montanaro.dyndns.org> <87d3yiqy54.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <19381.46855.12428.427285@montanaro.dyndns.org> <87aatmqbo6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <20100402102826.19eeb3e1@heresy> On Apr 02, 2010, at 09:30 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: >That's a good point. I think a better way to handle this might be an >Urgent flag (I guess we can't use Precedence for this, unfortunately, >list mail should still be bulk in most cases) accompanied by an >appropriate authentication. Which MM2 already has. :) MM3 currently uses the same mechanism, but I'm open to other ideas. >[1] Ie, this should be done by Mailman 3's RESTful API, not an >end-around by using an LDAP server or whatnot to hold the address db, >and accessing the LDAP server outside of Mailman. Yep. -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk Fri Apr 2 19:36:35 2010 From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 18:36:35 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM3 WUI :: Memberships Management In-Reply-To: <87ljd6r429.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <20100401180351.GO2886@amyl.org.uk> <87ljd6r429.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <20100402173635.GR2886@amyl.org.uk> On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 11:17:18AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > You seem to know what you want. So why don't you write a spec, maybe > design and even mockup screenshots? This is really important. Inspired by , here's my annotated mock-up screen-shot: (I think my photostream's been marked as safe, again. Damned Burning Man/Nowhere[1] photos.) As for a spec, I think the loosely written comments, might explain it, rather than me going through it wholly. That said, I'm more than happy to elaborate/clarify. I think the idea is: "I trust these people to admin that feature, so let them only do that (on this list: although the idea of having *global* permissions may be useful, in some cases, or indeed, the notion of grouping lists together (by domain, or site-administratively), and allowing these permissions for all lists within that group)". Design isn't my strong point, either ;) > One of the things I really hate about Zope 2 is the complexity of the > delegation mechanism (the "security" tab in the ZMI). Let's please > avoid that! I've not used the ZMI for about 3 years. [1] http://www.goingnowhere.org -- ``Bernard: It's another of those irregular verbs. I hold confidential briefings, you leak, he's been charged under section 2A of the Official Secrets Act. '' From stephen at xemacs.org Sat Apr 3 06:16:40 2010 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 13:16:40 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM3 WUI :: Memberships Management In-Reply-To: <20100402173635.GR2886@amyl.org.uk> References: <20100401180351.GO2886@amyl.org.uk> <87ljd6r429.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20100402173635.GR2886@amyl.org.uk> Message-ID: <874ojtqifr.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Adam McGreggor writes: > Inspired by , here's > my annotated mock-up screen-shot: > > Looks good as a rough cut. What I worry about is that there are a lot of options, and maybe a lot of classes that site owners or even list owners might want to differentiate. The notes on the diagram will be helpful there, I think. > (I think my photostream's been marked as safe, again. Damned Burning > Man/Nowhere[1] photos.) heh heh heh. From dandrews at visi.com Mon Apr 5 01:34:28 2010 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 18:34:28 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain In-Reply-To: <87d3yiqy54.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <19380.59053.115216.36861@montanaro.dyndns.org> <87d3yiqy54.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: At 11:25 PM 4/1/2010, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: >David Andrews writes: > > > Some other list software, I believe, has a feature that sends out a > > canned message once a month, such as list rules. I would like to see > > this in MM3 > >-1. This is mission creep. A cron job will serve perfectly well. > >Something that assists in setting up such cron jobs (and/or >generalizes to whatever weirdness Windows does instead of cron jobs) >would be good as a contrib module, of course. > I disagree, not everyone who runs a list has access to the command line, and/or the means or ability to set up a Cron Job, so something through the Web UI would be useful! Dave From stephen at xemacs.org Mon Apr 5 04:53:49 2010 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 11:53:49 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain In-Reply-To: References: <19380.59053.115216.36861@montanaro.dyndns.org> <87d3yiqy54.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <87pr2epq2q.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> David Andrews writes: > I disagree, not everyone who runs a list has access to the command > line, and/or the means or ability to set up a Cron Job, so something > through the Web UI would be useful! Of course it would be useful to people who are using platforms that were designed to make Mailman use painful. Nevertheless, Mailman's mission is "providing the best possible mailing list manager", not "providing poor emulations of everything that Unix does that Windows and cPanel do not". Supporting these Misfeatured Platforms already takes up a lot of time. It's like sharpening the claw end of a hammer head: the more such features we add, the more people will take up up using hammers to drive screws. It's still better to spend the $1 (or $15, if you go Snap-On) for the screwdriver. If Mailman can do it *better* than cron, that would be another matter. That point is arguable, but my personal preference would be to provide a generic feature that both cron and other possible schedulers could take advantage of. Alternatively, if this feature can be provided easily as a side effect of something Mailman already has to do, that would be good, too -- as long as it's not a step onto the slippery slope of mission creep. From skip at pobox.com Mon Apr 5 13:15:45 2010 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 06:15:45 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain In-Reply-To: References: <19380.59053.115216.36861@montanaro.dyndns.org> <87d3yiqy54.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <19385.50785.704973.154094@montanaro.dyndns.org> [ on the topic of the demise of the monthly mailing ] I haven't followed MM3 discussions closely, but if there is some sort of extension capability or programmatic API it might be useful to provide a demonstration of how to reproduce the defunct monthly mailing using such an interface. Is MM3 far enough along to be running somewhere that one could experiment? Skip From skip at pobox.com Mon Apr 5 13:18:20 2010 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 06:18:20 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain In-Reply-To: <87pr2epq2q.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <19380.59053.115216.36861@montanaro.dyndns.org> <87d3yiqy54.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87pr2epq2q.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <19385.50940.178665.737147@montanaro.dyndns.org> Stephen> If Mailman can do it *better* than cron, that would be another Stephen> matter. That point is arguable, but my personal preference Stephen> would be to provide a generic feature that both cron and other Stephen> possible schedulers could take advantage of. In fact, it is quite easy to argue that with a programmatic interface and access to cron my "spread out the pain" request is better implemented there. The monthly mailing becomes a daily mailing which only sends reminder notices to a fraction of the users. Skip From barry at list.org Mon Apr 5 16:52:52 2010 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 10:52:52 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain In-Reply-To: References: <19380.59053.115216.36861@montanaro.dyndns.org> <87d3yiqy54.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <20100405105252.17e56c1f@heresy> On Apr 04, 2010, at 06:34 PM, David Andrews wrote: >At 11:25 PM 4/1/2010, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: >>David Andrews writes: >> >> > Some other list software, I believe, has a feature that sends out a >> > canned message once a month, such as list rules. I would like to see >> > this in MM3 >> >>-1. This is mission creep. A cron job will serve perfectly well. >> >>Something that assists in setting up such cron jobs (and/or >>generalizes to whatever weirdness Windows does instead of cron jobs) >>would be good as a contrib module, of course. >> >I disagree, not everyone who runs a list has access to the command >line, and/or the means or ability to set up a Cron Job, so something >through the Web UI would be useful! This could potentially be a third-party add-on to the wui, but I don't think it belongs in the core Mailman project. Mailman certainly shouldn't be adding any functionality that duplicates cron. -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From barry at list.org Mon Apr 5 16:55:31 2010 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 10:55:31 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain In-Reply-To: <19385.50785.704973.154094@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <19380.59053.115216.36861@montanaro.dyndns.org> <87d3yiqy54.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <19385.50785.704973.154094@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20100405105531.2764a37f@heresy> On Apr 05, 2010, at 06:15 AM, skip at pobox.com wrote: >I haven't followed MM3 discussions closely, but if there is some sort of >extension capability or programmatic API it might be useful to provide a >demonstration of how to reproduce the defunct monthly mailing using such an >interface. Yes to both, though the passwords are no longer stored in plaintext so the monthly reminder can't be a *password* reminder. You could definitely do a monthly subscription reminder slash membership probe. The nice thing is that because folks can register multiple emails under one account, you should be able to send one message w/CCs I think to each person. >Is MM3 far enough along to be running somewhere that one could experiment? Yes, certainly for this. Let us know how it goes! -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stephen at xemacs.org Tue Apr 6 09:33:48 2010 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 16:33:48 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain In-Reply-To: <19385.50940.178665.737147@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <19380.59053.115216.36861@montanaro.dyndns.org> <87d3yiqy54.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87pr2epq2q.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <19385.50940.178665.737147@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <87k4slox0j.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> skip at pobox.com writes: > Stephen> If Mailman can do it *better* than cron, that would be another > Stephen> matter. That point is arguable, but my personal preference > Stephen> would be to provide a generic feature that both cron and other > Stephen> possible schedulers could take advantage of. > > In fact, it is quite easy to argue that with a programmatic interface and > access to cron my "spread out the pain" request is better implemented > there. "There" being in Mailman itself? Or in cron? (It's not obvious to me whether Mailman could do this better internally or not; of course I'd try to do it in cron before looking for a feature in Mailman, but Jack's mileage would vary, I'm sure. :-) > The monthly mailing becomes a daily mailing which only sends > reminder notices to a fraction of the users. Indeed, or weekly, or even 4x daily, and providing that kind of flexibility of timing is something that cron has a lot of existing support for. OTOH, somebody still has to write the code to manage the partial lists. However, that code might be useful for other purposes (eg, if a user who refers to the member list page often wants it split into 4 equal-sized pages rather than 27 pages of wildly varying size). (The above is what I mean by "generic features", and an example of how they might be applied.) From skip at pobox.com Tue Apr 6 12:30:10 2010 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 05:30:10 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM feature request - spread out the pain In-Reply-To: <87k4slox0j.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <19380.59053.115216.36861@montanaro.dyndns.org> <87d3yiqy54.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87pr2epq2q.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <19385.50940.178665.737147@montanaro.dyndns.org> <87k4slox0j.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Message-ID: <19387.3378.887039.96995@montanaro.dyndns.org> >> In fact, it is quite easy to argue that with a programmatic interface >> and access to cron my "spread out the pain" request is better >> implemented there. Stephen> "There" being in Mailman itself? Or in cron? (It's not Stephen> obvious to me whether Mailman could do this better internally Stephen> or not; of course I'd try to do it in cron before looking for a Stephen> feature in Mailman, but Jack's mileage would vary, I'm Stephen> sure. :-) In cron via a web services api of some sort. >> The monthly mailing becomes a daily mailing which only sends reminder >> notices to a fraction of the users. Stephen> Indeed, or weekly, or even 4x daily, and providing that kind of Stephen> flexibility of timing is something that cron has a lot of Stephen> existing support for. OTOH, somebody still has to write the Stephen> code to manage the partial lists. However, that code might be Stephen> useful for other purposes (eg, if a user who refers to the Stephen> member list page often wants it split into 4 equal-sized pages Stephen> rather than 27 pages of wildly varying size). (The above is Stephen> what I mean by "generic features", and an example of how they Stephen> might be applied.) In my original post I wrote the selector I would use to determine which day of the month an email was to get a notice: ord(email[0]) % 28 + 1 Assuming you can pull the current list members from an API you select those whose first letter matches the current day of the month. (*) Now, as to actually performing this experiment, I find starting up Mailman a rather high barrier simply because you have to create and populate a mailing list. How do people generally go about doing that? Do you just create a bunch of dummy aliases which map to a single address? Skip (*) In the Apocryphal Bible we find these extra two verses: Genesis 2 ... 4 And on the 29th, 30th and 31st days of the month the Moderator rested from all the labors to which he had been assigned by the Administrator. 5 And the Administrator blessed the 29th, 30th and 31st days of the month and sanctified them by pulling a beer from the cooler. From barry at list.org Thu Apr 8 23:44:13 2010 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 17:44:13 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Logo contest voting is open! Message-ID: <20100408174413.06155797@heresy> Hello everyone. Earlier this year, we announced the contest for a new GNU Mailman logo. We received over 30 entries from many talented artists, and we thank all of them for their generous contribution. The Mailman Steering Committee has narrowed the selection down to 5 finalists, and we have identified a decent free internet voting site. With that, I'd like to announce the opening of the community driven poll for the new GNU Mailman logo! Vote here: http://bit.ly/cUpAA2 The poll will remain open until Friday May 7, 2010 at 2200 UTC. Please participate by ranking the logos from most favorite (1) to least favorite (5). While the voting software will prevent double votes, I have confidence that this community will also be good citizens and play fairly. You will have to enable JavaScript to properly interact with the voting site. GNU Mailman is free software so of course you may forward this announcement to other interested mailing lists. We invite anyone in the free software and open source communities to participate in the vote. Thanks again to all of our great artists, and to you for your continued support. If you have any questions, please do ask. Cheers, -Barry (on behalf of the GNU Mailman Steering Committee) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From amk at amk.ca Mon Apr 12 19:50:23 2010 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 13:50:23 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Puzzling doubled-period bug Message-ID: <20100412175023.GA5541@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net> I've run into a puzzling problem that I can't yet reproduce: our Mailman installation sometimes doubles periods in the HTML portion of a message, sometimes breaking a link or image as a result. Does anyone recall seeing this before? For example, here's the difference between the HTML before it's sent and after it's received: -> diff old new 60c60 < ational_Conference.gif" alt=3D"2010 National Conference" width=3D"235" = --- > ational_Conference..gif" alt=3D"2010 National Conference" width=3D"235" = 105c105 < must-attend conference.

--- > must-attend conference..

The first hunk is a change to an IMG SRC, so it breaks the display. These are the only two changes in an HTML file that is hundreds of lines long. Not every '.' is doubled, and '.' isn't even special to quoted-printable encoding, so this is very puzzling. Does this description sound even vaguely familiar to anyone? Searches of the Launchpad bug tracker (and bugs.python.org) didn't turn up anything apparently relevant. I'll be chasing this down, since it might be a bug in Mailman, our customization of Mailman, our spam filtering, or in Python 2.5.0's email package, binascii module, or somewhere like that. (For historical reasons, we're stuck with Python 2.5.0, so possibly this is fixed in 2.5.4). --amk From mark at msapiro.net Mon Apr 12 20:26:36 2010 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:26:36 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Puzzling doubled-period bug In-Reply-To: <20100412175023.GA5541@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net> Message-ID: A.M. Kuchling wrote: >I've run into a puzzling problem that I can't yet reproduce: our >Mailman installation sometimes doubles periods in the HTML portion of >a message, sometimes breaking a link or image as a result. Does >anyone recall seeing this before? I've never seen this that I recall. Look at section 4.5.2 of RFC 2821 (or the same section 4.5.2 of RFC 5321). While this doesn't seem relevant to your example, it's the only thing I can think of that doubles periods. Possibly, the lines in the message are long and some MTA is breaking them for transmission and a line just happens to get broken so it begins with a period which is doubled, but somehow the receiver doesn't see the line break and doesn't undouble the period. The fact that this only occurs in HTML is additionally suggestive of long lines being involved. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From barry at list.org Mon Apr 12 23:07:44 2010 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 17:07:44 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Puzzling doubled-period bug In-Reply-To: <20100412175023.GA5541@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net> References: <20100412175023.GA5541@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net> Message-ID: <20100412170744.449627b4@heresy> On Apr 12, 2010, at 01:50 PM, A.M. Kuchling wrote: >I've run into a puzzling problem that I can't yet reproduce: our >Mailman installation sometimes doubles periods in the HTML portion of >a message, sometimes breaking a link or image as a result. Does >anyone recall seeing this before? Like Mark, I've never heard of this before. -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: not available URL: