From p at state-of-mind.de  Mon Jun  1 23:25:14 2009
From: p at state-of-mind.de (Patrick Ben Koetter)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:25:14 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
Message-ID: <20090601212514.GG5037@state-of-mind.de>

We, the Python.org postmasters, received about 2.200 bounces at Mailman day
from monthly password reminders that did not reach the recipient.

Ralf said such bounces do not increase a mailing list members bounce score.
Is this correct? If it is, can we add such behaviour to the MM3 feature list?
Any objections?

p at rick

-- 
state of mind
Digitale Kommunikation

http://www.state-of-mind.de

Franziskanerstra?e 15      Telefon +49 89 3090 4664
81669 M?nchen              Telefax +49 89 3090 4666

Amtsgericht M?nchen        Partnerschaftsregister PR 563


From barry at list.org  Tue Jun  2 00:04:21 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:04:21 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
In-Reply-To: <20090601212514.GG5037@state-of-mind.de>
References: <20090601212514.GG5037@state-of-mind.de>
Message-ID: <779CE739-0280-4F7D-8C70-AD94B9418EB8@list.org>

On Jun 1, 2009, at 5:25 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:

> We, the Python.org postmasters, received about 2.200 bounces at  
> Mailman day
> from monthly password reminders that did not reach the recipient.
>
> Ralf said such bounces do not increase a mailing list members bounce  
> score.
> Is this correct? If it is, can we add such behaviour to the MM3  
> feature list?
> Any objections?

I believe that's right because the password reminders come from the  
site list.  Because of the mailing list silos in MM2.x, it's not  
feasible to map those onto all the lists the email address could be a  
member of.

Remember that monthly reminders are a thing of the past.  They won't  
be in MM3 and IIRC, they've already been removed from the MM2.2 tree  
also.

-Barry

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From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun  2 00:09:28 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:09:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
In-Reply-To: <20090601212514.GG5037@state-of-mind.de>
Message-ID: <PC192200906011509280406d12be772@msapiro>

Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:

>We, the Python.org postmasters, received about 2.200 bounces at Mailman day
>from monthly password reminders that did not reach the recipient.
>
>Ralf said such bounces do not increase a mailing list members bounce score.
>Is this correct? If it is, can we add such behaviour to the MM3 feature list?


The reminders go away in Mailman 3.0 as does the site list, so the
problem goes away.

See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/aICB> for a description of the
issues and why this is happening.

I agree that 2200 bounces is a huge number to deal with manually. I'm
willing to work with you to find a way to deal with these
programmatically if you wish.

Just incrementing the bounce score for such a user on all lists of
which she is a member will not work, because as the FAQ notes, her
list delivery is probably disabled so the only bounces are the
password reminder, and likely, last month's bounce is stale when this
one arrives.

Removing the member from all lists is often the right thing, but
consider a member who is actually active on lists, but bounces
un-whitelisted mail and forgets to whitelist the site list. Then the
password reminder bounces and he is removed from all lists.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From p at state-of-mind.de  Tue Jun  2 00:40:35 2009
From: p at state-of-mind.de (Patrick Ben Koetter)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 00:40:35 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
In-Reply-To: <PC192200906011509280406d12be772@msapiro>
References: <20090601212514.GG5037@state-of-mind.de>
	<PC192200906011509280406d12be772@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20090601224034.GH5037@state-of-mind.de>

* Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
> Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:
> 
> >We, the Python.org postmasters, received about 2.200 bounces at Mailman day
> >from monthly password reminders that did not reach the recipient.
> >
> >Ralf said such bounces do not increase a mailing list members bounce score.
> >Is this correct? If it is, can we add such behaviour to the MM3 feature list?
> 
> 
> The reminders go away in Mailman 3.0 as does the site list, so the
> problem goes away.

Fine.

> See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/aICB> for a description of the
> issues and why this is happening.
> 
> I agree that 2200 bounces is a huge number to deal with manually. I'm
> willing to work with you to find a way to deal with these
> programmatically if you wish.

Thanks for the offer. Ralf already took care of it and he's not the kind of
guy to use his hands if a script can do it. I haven't asked, but I guess he
used some awk magic...


> Just incrementing the bounce score for such a user on all lists of
> which she is a member will not work, because as the FAQ notes, her
> list delivery is probably disabled so the only bounces are the
> password reminder, and likely, last month's bounce is stale when this
> one arrives.
> 
> Removing the member from all lists is often the right thing, but
> consider a member who is actually active on lists, but bounces
> un-whitelisted mail and forgets to whitelist the site list. Then the
> password reminder bounces and he is removed from all lists.

Yes, I understand that very well. My mail was more about "doing the right
thing" than about what exactly should be done.

Since the cause will be removed the problem should be gone in MM3.

p at rick

-- 
state of mind
Digitale Kommunikation

http://www.state-of-mind.de

Franziskanerstra?e 15      Telefon +49 89 3090 4664
81669 M?nchen              Telefax +49 89 3090 4666

Amtsgericht M?nchen        Partnerschaftsregister PR 563


From chris at zankel.net  Tue Jun  2 04:30:05 2009
From: chris at zankel.net (Chris Zankel)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 19:30:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Creating a new mailing list - Bug in
	Mailman version 2.1.5
In-Reply-To: <4A248BD5.1030509@tensilica.com>
References: <4A248BD5.1030509@tensilica.com>
Message-ID: <4A248EAD.2070402@zankel.net>

Hi Piet,

Yes, I had the same error. Nevertheless, the mailing list itself was 
created but not the aliases entries in /etc/aliases. I simply created 
them manually (copying them from one of the other ones). That seemed to 
have worked.

-Chris

Piet Delaney wrote:
> Hi Christian:
> 
>   I tried creating a new mailing list for xocd and got the error
> shown below. You recently created new mailing list, so I thought
> you might know about this land mine that I just stepped on while
> using the std gui interface:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>     http://lists.linux-xtensa.org/mailman/create
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Bug in Mailman version 2.1.5
> 
> We're sorry, we hit a bug!
> 
> Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem.
> Printing of traceback and other system information has been
> explicitly inhibited, but the webmaster can find this
> information in the Mailman error logs.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> The admin web page mentions having proper authority.
> Is it possibly that I just don't know the List creators
> (authentication) password?
> 
> BTW, any thoughts on the openembedded effort we discussed earlier?
> 
> I'm wrapping up some work on AES and hope to get back to submitting
> xtensa kernel patches for xtensa as a part time project.
> 
> -piet


From karlis.repsons at gmail.com  Mon Jun  1 10:09:33 2009
From: karlis.repsons at gmail.com (=?utf-8?q?K=C4=81rlis_Repsons?=)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 08:09:33 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] a question about documentation
Message-ID: <200906010809.33731.Karlis.Repsons@gmail.com>

Hello,
could someone let me know about how was mailman-install.pdf manual generated?
CC to me...
K.

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Mon Jun  1 23:34:18 2009
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:34:18 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
In-Reply-To: <20090601212514.GG5037@state-of-mind.de>
References: <20090601212514.GG5037@state-of-mind.de>
Message-ID: <20090601213418.GJ5375@charite.de>

* Patrick Ben Koetter <p at state-of-mind.de>:
> We, the Python.org postmasters, received about 2.200 bounces at Mailman day
> from monthly password reminders that did not reach the recipient.

These were VERPified, thus could easily be matched to the original
recipient. A retarded task I did manually.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt
  Gesch?ftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk
  Charit? - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
  Campus Benjamin Franklin
  Hindenburgdamm 30 | D-12200 Berlin
  Tel. +49 30 450 570 155 | Fax: +49 30 450 570 962
  Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de | http://www.charite.de

From pdelaney at tensilica.com  Tue Jun  2 04:17:57 2009
From: pdelaney at tensilica.com (Piet Delaney)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 19:17:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Creating a new mailing list - Bug in Mailman
	version 2.1.5
Message-ID: <4A248BD5.1030509@tensilica.com>

Hi Christian:

   I tried creating a new mailing list for xocd and got the error
shown below. You recently created new mailing list, so I thought
you might know about this land mine that I just stepped on while
using the std gui interface:
---------------------------------------------------------------
	http://lists.linux-xtensa.org/mailman/create
---------------------------------------------------------------
Bug in Mailman version 2.1.5

We're sorry, we hit a bug!

Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem.
Printing of traceback and other system information has been
explicitly inhibited, but the webmaster can find this
information in the Mailman error logs.
---------------------------------------------------------------
The admin web page mentions having proper authority.
Is it possibly that I just don't know the List creators
(authentication) password?

BTW, any thoughts on the openembedded effort we discussed earlier?

I'm wrapping up some work on AES and hope to get back to submitting
xtensa kernel patches for xtensa as a part time project.

-piet

From bob at nleaudio.com  Tue Jun  2 06:16:39 2009
From: bob at nleaudio.com (Bob Puff)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 00:16:39 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] very large lists
Message-ID: <20090602041336.M82171@nleaudio.com>

Hi gang,

I have a customer who wants a one-way distribution list set up that will
handle millions of recipients... like 10 million.  It is a double opt-in, and
its not spam.. <g>

I'm thinking this is probably too much for MM 2 to handle.  Will MM3 be able
to scale to this size?  

If anyone has suggestions for me for current software that can do this, feel
free to email me off-list.  Bounce processing is important, as is user management.

Bob


From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Tue Jun  2 07:08:05 2009
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:08:05 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
In-Reply-To: <779CE739-0280-4F7D-8C70-AD94B9418EB8@list.org>
References: <20090601212514.GG5037@state-of-mind.de>
	<779CE739-0280-4F7D-8C70-AD94B9418EB8@list.org>
Message-ID: <20090602050805.GB20033@charite.de>

* Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org>:

> I believe that's right because the password reminders come from the site 
> list.  Because of the mailing list silos in MM2.x, it's not feasible to 
> map those onto all the lists the email address could be a member of.
>
> Remember that monthly reminders are a thing of the past.  They won't be in 
> MM3 and IIRC, they've already been removed from the MM2.2 tree also.

What else is there to remind the users?

From terri at zone12.com  Tue Jun  2 06:51:08 2009
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 00:51:08 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] a question about documentation
In-Reply-To: <200906010809.33731.Karlis.Repsons@gmail.com>
References: <200906010809.33731.Karlis.Repsons@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A24AFBC.2070000@zone12.com>

K?rlis Repsons wrote:
> Hello,
> could someone let me know about how was mailman-install.pdf manual generated?
> CC to me...

All the pdfs are generated from LaTeX files (.tex) that can be found in 
the source tree under... uh.. probably doc/ or maybe admin/doc.  Look 
for mailman-install.tex.  There may be a makefile there too, otherwise 
you can use latex to generate a pdf (texi2pdf or latex --output=pdf 
depending on your installation)

That said, I'm trying to keep the most recent documents in the wiki now, 
  with the plan to eventually phase out the latex, so you may wish to 
use the wiki as the source in the future.

  Terri

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Tue Jun  2 07:10:09 2009
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:10:09 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
In-Reply-To: <PC192200906011509280406d12be772@msapiro>
References: <20090601212514.GG5037@state-of-mind.de>
	<PC192200906011509280406d12be772@msapiro>
Message-ID: <20090602051009.GC20033@charite.de>

* Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:

> See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/aICB> for a description of the
> issues and why this is happening.

Yes, that's why
 
> I agree that 2200 bounces is a huge number to deal with manually. I'm
> willing to work with you to find a way to deal with these
> programmatically if you wish.

I already scripted that
 
> Just incrementing the bounce score for such a user on all lists of
> which she is a member will not work, because as the FAQ notes, her
> list delivery is probably disabled so the only bounces are the
> password reminder, and likely, last month's bounce is stale when this
> one arrives.

Ahhh. Good point.

> Removing the member from all lists is often the right thing, but
> consider a member who is actually active on lists, but bounces
> un-whitelisted mail and forgets to whitelist the site list. Then the
> password reminder bounces and he is removed from all lists.

Hm. I guess they'll have to live with that :)

From iane at sussex.ac.uk  Tue Jun  2 11:49:39 2009
From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:49:39 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] very large lists
In-Reply-To: <20090602041336.M82171@nleaudio.com>
References: <20090602041336.M82171@nleaudio.com>
Message-ID: <23B86786C892B6311E49EEB7@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>



--On 2 June 2009 00:16:39 -0400 Bob Puff <bob at nleaudio.com> wrote:

> Hi gang,
>
> I have a customer who wants a one-way distribution list set up that will
> handle millions of recipients... like 10 million.  It is a double opt-in,
> and its not spam.. <g>
>
> I'm thinking this is probably too much for MM 2 to handle.  Will MM3 be
> able to scale to this size?
>
> If anyone has suggestions for me for current software that can do this,
> feel free to email me off-list.  Bounce processing is important, as is
> user management.

You've not specified the problem very clearly. How frequently do you expect 
to send messages to this list? Do you have several lists? How urgent are 
the messages? Do they need to be delivered in the space of a few minutes, 
hours, or days?

If you don't need personalised messages, then you can do the VERP in your 
MTA. That should make it much more feasible. Configure Mailman with several 
parallel queue runners to prevent messages to large lists from holding up 
messages to small lists.



>
> Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/iane%40sussex.a
> c.uk
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9



-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
01273-873148 x3148
For new support requests, see http://www.sussex.ac.uk/its/help/

From barry at list.org  Tue Jun  2 13:08:12 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:08:12 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] a question about documentation
In-Reply-To: <4A24AFBC.2070000@zone12.com>
References: <200906010809.33731.Karlis.Repsons@gmail.com>
	<4A24AFBC.2070000@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <928F50B6-ECE4-4CF0-8ACD-8EA012C32EC3@list.org>

On Jun 2, 2009, at 12:51 AM, Terri Oda wrote:

> That said, I'm trying to keep the most recent documents in the wiki  
> now,  with the plan to eventually phase out the latex, so you may  
> wish to use the wiki as the source in the future.

This is a great plan, thanks Terri.  Note that wiki pages can be  
turned into PDF, IIRC. Any text based file system documentation we  
include going forward should probably be in restructured text (reST)  
format, since there are now excellent toolchains available to turn  
this into good printed and online documentation (Sphinx).  I think we  
can now claim reST is the standard documentation format for Python  
code.  All of MM3's doctests are in reST for example.

-Barry

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From barry at list.org  Tue Jun  2 13:09:55 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:09:55 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
In-Reply-To: <20090602050805.GB20033@charite.de>
References: <20090601212514.GG5037@state-of-mind.de>
	<779CE739-0280-4F7D-8C70-AD94B9418EB8@list.org>
	<20090602050805.GB20033@charite.de>
Message-ID: <A5C0E23E-611D-4923-A929-BEF7608AE019@list.org>

On Jun 2, 2009, at 1:08 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:

> * Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org>:
>
>> I believe that's right because the password reminders come from the  
>> site
>> list.  Because of the mailing list silos in MM2.x, it's not  
>> feasible to
>> map those onto all the lists the email address could be a member of.
>>
>> Remember that monthly reminders are a thing of the past.  They  
>> won't be in
>> MM3 and IIRC, they've already been removed from the MM2.2 tree also.
>
> What else is there to remind the users?

There isn't anything I think.  Are you asking because you think the  
monthly reminders still have a valid use case?  I'd love to keep them  
killed off since I think the headache they introduce (especially for  
admins) far outweighs any benefit to users.

-Barry

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From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Tue Jun  2 13:12:30 2009
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 13:12:30 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
In-Reply-To: <A5C0E23E-611D-4923-A929-BEF7608AE019@list.org>
References: <20090601212514.GG5037@state-of-mind.de>
	<779CE739-0280-4F7D-8C70-AD94B9418EB8@list.org>
	<20090602050805.GB20033@charite.de>
	<A5C0E23E-611D-4923-A929-BEF7608AE019@list.org>
Message-ID: <20090602111230.GE27404@charite.de>

* Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org>:

>> What else is there to remind the users?
>
> There isn't anything I think.  Are you asking because you think the  
> monthly reminders still have a valid use case?  I'd love to keep them  
> killed off since I think the headache they introduce (especially for  
> admins) far outweighs any benefit to users.

Pro: They could be used to weed out undeliverables on low traffic
     announce lists
     
Con: they add unwanted traffic for low traffic announce lists     
     headache for admins




From iane at sussex.ac.uk  Tue Jun  2 14:11:20 2009
From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 13:11:20 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
In-Reply-To: <A5C0E23E-611D-4923-A929-BEF7608AE019@list.org>
References: <20090601212514.GG5037@state-of-mind.de>
	<779CE739-0280-4F7D-8C70-AD94B9418EB8@list.org>
	<20090602050805.GB20033@charite.de>
	<A5C0E23E-611D-4923-A929-BEF7608AE019@list.org>
Message-ID: <F5AF6AE56B09F04894ED19F5@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>



--On 2 June 2009 07:09:55 -0400 Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org> wrote:

>
> There isn't anything I think.  Are you asking because you think the
> monthly reminders still have a valid use case?  I'd love to keep them
> killed off since I think the headache they introduce (especially for
> admins) far outweighs any benefit to users.

Of course, site admins ought to be able to disable them or change the 
default for the site, specific lists or users. List admins should be able 
to disable them or change the default for their lists, or specific users. 
Users should be able to disable them or enable them per list (where they're 
permitted to).

The use case. If I'm changing an email address - eg moving jobs, I'll set 
up forwarding for a while, and change my subscriptions accordingly. If I 
don't get a message from a list before the old account is disabled, then I 
stop getting mail from that list. There must be other use cases.

-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
01273-873148 x3148
For new support requests, see http://www.sussex.ac.uk/its/help/

From bob at nleaudio.com  Tue Jun  2 16:11:44 2009
From: bob at nleaudio.com (Bob Puff)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:11:44 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] very large lists
In-Reply-To: <23B86786C892B6311E49EEB7@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
References: <20090602041336.M82171@nleaudio.com>
	<23B86786C892B6311E49EEB7@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <20090602140540.M72030@nleaudio.com>




---------- Original Message -----------
From: Ian Eiloart <iane at sussex.ac.uk>
To: Bob Puff <bob at nleaudio.com>, Mailman-Developers at python.org
Sent: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:49:39 +0100
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] very large lists

> --On 2 June 2009 00:16:39 -0400 Bob Puff <bob at nleaudio.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hi gang,
> >
> > I have a customer who wants a one-way distribution list set up that will
> > handle millions of recipients... like 10 million.  It is a double opt-in,
> > and its not spam.. <g>
> >
> > I'm thinking this is probably too much for MM 2 to handle.  Will MM3 be
> > able to scale to this size?
> >
> > If anyone has suggestions for me for current software that can do this,
> > feel free to email me off-list.  Bounce processing is important, as is
> > user management.
> 
> You've not specified the problem very clearly. How frequently do you 
> expect to send messages to this list? Do you have several lists? How 
> urgent are the messages? Do they need to be delivered in the space 
> of a few minutes, hours, or days?

Hi Ian,

The problem I've seen is that with the "large" lists I have now (up to
10,000), python is the dominate process taking up time.  I recall there being
some discussion about how the list data files are locked during bounce
processing, preventing parallel processes from doing much.

I'm not sure its physically possible to deliver a million emails in a matter
of a few minutes or even a few hours, unless its a bot-net! :-)  Even on a
100mb link, I would expect more on the order of many hours.  Messages would be
sent at a maximum of one per week.
 
> If you don't need personalised messages, then you can do the VERP in 
> your MTA. That should make it much more feasible. Configure Mailman 
> with several parallel queue runners to prevent messages to large 
> lists from holding up messages to small lists.

What and where would be the config statement specifying the number of queue
runners?

Bob


From iane at sussex.ac.uk  Tue Jun  2 17:37:55 2009
From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 16:37:55 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] very large lists
In-Reply-To: <20090602140540.M72030@nleaudio.com>
References: <20090602041336.M82171@nleaudio.com>
	<23B86786C892B6311E49EEB7@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
	<20090602140540.M72030@nleaudio.com>
Message-ID: <2A3FAB9FA374DDFE1A7D254F@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>



--On 2 June 2009 10:11:44 -0400 Bob Puff <bob at nleaudio.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> ---------- Original Message -----------
> From: Ian Eiloart <iane at sussex.ac.uk>
> To: Bob Puff <bob at nleaudio.com>, Mailman-Developers at python.org
> Sent: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:49:39 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] very large lists
>
>> --On 2 June 2009 00:16:39 -0400 Bob Puff <bob at nleaudio.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi gang,
>> >
>> > I have a customer who wants a one-way distribution list set up that
>> > will handle millions of recipients... like 10 million.  It is a double
>> > opt-in, and its not spam.. <g>
>> >
>> > I'm thinking this is probably too much for MM 2 to handle.  Will MM3 be
>> > able to scale to this size?
>> >
>> > If anyone has suggestions for me for current software that can do this,
>> > feel free to email me off-list.  Bounce processing is important, as is
>> > user management.
>>
>> You've not specified the problem very clearly. How frequently do you
>> expect to send messages to this list? Do you have several lists? How
>> urgent are the messages? Do they need to be delivered in the space
>> of a few minutes, hours, or days?
>
> Hi Ian,
>
> The problem I've seen is that with the "large" lists I have now (up to
> 10,000), python is the dominate process taking up time.  I recall there
> being some discussion about how the list data files are locked during
> bounce processing, preventing parallel processes from doing much.

If your messages aren't personalised, you can do the verp in your MTA. Then 
your Mailman server could deliver one message per recipient _domain_, 
instead of one per recipient. And, if you're out of server resource, you 
could build a cluster. If it's CPU bound, then multiple queue runners may 
help if you have multiple processor cores.

We got huge improvements delivering mail when we introduced parallel q 
runners. Our problem was that delivery to small but time sensitive lists 
was held up when someone sent mail to a large list. So, it still takes a 
while to deliver to a large list, but other jobs aren't held up.


> I'm not sure its physically possible to deliver a million emails in a
> matter of a few minutes or even a few hours, unless its a bot-net! :-)
> Even on a 100mb link, I would expect more on the order of many hours.
> Messages would be sent at a maximum of one per week.

Well, you didn't say that your client wasn't gmail, for example!
>> If you don't need personalised messages, then you can do the VERP in
>> your MTA. That should make it much more feasible. Configure Mailman
>> with several parallel queue runners to prevent messages to large
>> lists from holding up messages to small lists.
>
> What and where would be the config statement specifying the number of
> queue runners?

we have this, in mm_cfg.py:

# Which queues should the qrunner master watchdog spawn?  This is a list of
# 2-tuples containing the name of the qrunner class (which must live in a
# module of the same name within the Mailman.Queue package), and the number 
of
# parallel processes to fork for each qrunner.  If more than one process is
# used, each will take an equal subdivision of the hash space.

# BAW: Eventually we may support weighted hash spaces.
# BAW: Although not enforced, the # of slices must be a power of 2

QRUNNERS = [
    ('ArchRunner',     4), # messages for the archiver
    ('BounceRunner',   4), # for processing the qfile/bounces directory
    ('CommandRunner',  4), # commands and bounces from the outside world
    ('IncomingRunner', 4), # posts from the outside world
    ('NewsRunner',     4), # outgoing messages to the nntpd
    ('OutgoingRunner', 32), # outgoing messages to the smtpd
    ('VirginRunner',   4), # internally crafted (virgin birth) messages
    ('RetryRunner',    4), # retry temporarily failed deliveries
    ]


>
> Bob
>



-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
01273-873148 x3148
For new support requests, see http://www.sussex.ac.uk/its/help/

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun  3 05:02:43 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 20:02:43 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] a question about documentation
In-Reply-To: <4A24AFBC.2070000@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <PC1922009060220024301080aa60c17@msapiro>

Terri Oda wrote:
>
>All the pdfs are generated from LaTeX files (.tex) that can be found in 
>the source tree under... uh.. probably doc/ or maybe admin/doc.


Just a technical note - the .tex files haven't been included in the
last few Mailman releases. The entire documentation package is
available at
<https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-administrivia/mailman-administrivia/admin>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun  3 05:46:19 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 20:46:19 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Creating a new mailing list - Bug in
	Mailmanversion 2.1.5
In-Reply-To: <4A248BD5.1030509@tensilica.com>
Message-ID: <PC192200906022046190514dea52b55@msapiro>

Piet Delaney wrote:
>
>   I tried creating a new mailing list for xocd and got the error
>shown below. You recently created new mailing list, so I thought
>you might know about this land mine that I just stepped on while
>using the std gui interface:
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>	http://lists.linux-xtensa.org/mailman/create
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>Bug in Mailman version 2.1.5
>
>We're sorry, we hit a bug!
>
>Please inform the webmaster for this site of this problem.
>Printing of traceback and other system information has been
>explicitly inhibited, but the webmaster can find this
>information in the Mailman error logs.
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>The admin web page mentions having proper authority.
>Is it possibly that I just don't know the List creators
>(authentication) password?


That wouldn't be the reason for the "bug", even in ancient 2.1.5.

If you're posting to Mailman Developers because you want help or to
report the "bug", please provide the full log entry from Mailman's
error log.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun  3 06:31:25 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:31:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] very large lists
In-Reply-To: <2A3FAB9FA374DDFE1A7D254F@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <PC192200906022131250827b01c5cd4@msapiro>

Ian Eiloart wrote:
>
>We got huge improvements delivering mail when we introduced parallel q 
>runners. Our problem was that delivery to small but time sensitive lists 
>was held up when someone sent mail to a large list. So, it still takes a 
>while to deliver to a large list, but other jobs aren't held up.


It is only partly true that other jobs are not held up. When you slice
a qrunner, you don't get "one queue/many servers". You get "many
queues/many servers" any specific message still has a 1/n chance of
being behind one with a long service time.

I note that you have 32 outgoing runner slices, so it's probably rare
that a message is waiting in the same queue slice as the one to 10,000
recipients, but it can happen.


Bob,

As far as the millions of recipients is concerned, with a default
Mailman 2.x. the size of the lists/LISTNAME/config.pck is going to be
huge. I think you'd need to break it into several subset lists and an
umbrella. I also think you'd want to investigate alternate
MemberAdaptors, although the MySQL ones (see thread at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2008-September/020363.html>
are the only ones I am aware of that support bounce processing.

With some changes like this, it might be feasable in Mailman 2.1/2.2.
This is somewhat uncharted territory, all though 100K lists are not
unheard of.  See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/NoA9>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun  3 06:50:31 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:50:31 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
In-Reply-To: <20090602051009.GC20033@charite.de>
Message-ID: <PC192200906022150310967dea52d26@msapiro>

Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
>
>* Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
>
>> Removing the member from all lists is often the right thing, but
>> consider a member who is actually active on lists, but bounces
>> un-whitelisted mail and forgets to whitelist the site list. Then the
>> password reminder bounces and he is removed from all lists.
>
>Hm. I guess they'll have to live with that :)

OK, but FYI, here's perhaps a better reason direct from BounceRunner

 XXX We used to classify bounces to the site list as bounce events
 for every list, but this caused severe problems.  Here's the
 scenario: aperson at example.com is a member of 4 lists, and a list
 owner of the foo list.  example.com has an aggressive spam filter
 which rejects any message that is spam or contains spam as an
 attachment.  Now, a spambot sends a piece of spam to the foo list,
 but since that spambot is not a member, the list holds the message
 for approval, and sends a notification to aperson at example.com as
 list owner.  That notification contains a copy of the spam.  Now
 example.com rejects the message, causing a bounce to be sent to the
 site list's bounce address.  The bounce runner would then dutifully
 register a bounce for all 4 lists that aperson at example.com was a
 member of, and eventually that person would get disabled on all
 their lists.  So now we ignore site list bounces.  Ce La Vie for
 password reminder bounces.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From skip at pobox.com  Wed Jun  3 15:12:02 2009
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 08:12:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
In-Reply-To: <779CE739-0280-4F7D-8C70-AD94B9418EB8@list.org>
References: <20090601212514.GG5037@state-of-mind.de>
	<779CE739-0280-4F7D-8C70-AD94B9418EB8@list.org>
Message-ID: <18982.30370.314247.863121@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Barry> Remember that monthly reminders are a thing of the past.  They
    Barry> won't be in MM3 and IIRC, they've already been removed from the
    Barry> MM2.2 tree also.

Thank you.  As the person who maintains the mail.python.org spam filters the
volume of held messages I have to wade through is huge around the first of
the month because of bouncing reminders.

Skip

From p at state-of-mind.de  Wed Jun  3 15:43:23 2009
From: p at state-of-mind.de (Patrick Ben Koetter)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 15:43:23 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
In-Reply-To: <18982.30370.314247.863121@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <20090601212514.GG5037@state-of-mind.de>
	<779CE739-0280-4F7D-8C70-AD94B9418EB8@list.org>
	<18982.30370.314247.863121@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20090603134323.GD4194@state-of-mind.de>

* skip at pobox.com <skip at pobox.com>:
> 
>     Barry> Remember that monthly reminders are a thing of the past.  They
>     Barry> won't be in MM3 and IIRC, they've already been removed from the
>     Barry> MM2.2 tree also.
> 
> Thank you.  As the person who maintains the mail.python.org spam filters the
> volume of held messages I have to wade through is huge around the first of
> the month because of bouncing reminders.

I will definitely miss Mailman Day. ;)

p at rick

-- 
state of mind
Digitale Kommunikation

http://www.state-of-mind.de

Franziskanerstra?e 15	   Telefon +49 89 3090 4664
81669 M?nchen              Telefax +49 89 3090 4666

Amtsgericht M?nchen        Partnerschaftsregister PR 563

From nico at tekNico.net  Tue Jun  2 15:39:26 2009
From: nico at tekNico.net (Nicola Larosa)
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 15:39:26 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
In-Reply-To: <A5C0E23E-611D-4923-A929-BEF7608AE019@list.org>
References: <20090601212514.GG5037@state-of-mind.de>	<779CE739-0280-4F7D-8C70-AD94B9418EB8@list.org>	<20090602050805.GB20033@charite.de>
	<A5C0E23E-611D-4923-A929-BEF7608AE019@list.org>
Message-ID: <4A252B8E.4010105@tekNico.net>

Barry Warsaw wrote:
> Are you asking because you think the monthly reminders still have a
> valid use case?  I'd love to keep them killed off since I think the
> headache they introduce (especially for admins) far outweighs any
> benefit to users.

Being on by default is a headache for users too. Every time I subscribe
to a mailing list, I have to go into settings just to disable the damn thing.

Should you reintroduce them in MM3, please set them off by default.
Thanks. :-)

-- 
Nicola Larosa - http://www.tekNico.net/
(the 1:30AM bossanova guitar player ;-) )


From barry at list.org  Thu Jun  4 14:11:12 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 08:11:12 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
In-Reply-To: <F5AF6AE56B09F04894ED19F5@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
References: <20090601212514.GG5037@state-of-mind.de>
	<779CE739-0280-4F7D-8C70-AD94B9418EB8@list.org>
	<20090602050805.GB20033@charite.de>
	<A5C0E23E-611D-4923-A929-BEF7608AE019@list.org>
	<F5AF6AE56B09F04894ED19F5@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <8A1C1BA3-E2B6-4081-AE54-1E525B75C7A0@list.org>

On Jun 2, 2009, at 8:11 AM, Ian Eiloart wrote:

> The use case. If I'm changing an email address - eg moving jobs,  
> I'll set up forwarding for a while, and change my subscriptions  
> accordingly. If I don't get a message from a list before the old  
> account is disabled, then I stop getting mail from that list. There  
> must be other use cases.

I hope that we can address this through two new "features".  First,  
you'll be able to associate multiple email addresses with your  
account, and if one starts bouncing, Mailman can just flip over to the  
next enabled one on your list.  Second, you'll be able to get password  
resets (not reminders -- the passwords will now be encrypted!) just  
like for every other site you're on.  Of course, I also plan to  
support OpenID so you won't have to remember a bazillion passwords.

There is the case where you just don't remember you're on a mailing  
list until it's too late (i.e. your old email has expired).  Once you  
remember this, you should be able to log into your account, e.g. via  
OpenID, and associate a new email address with it, then verify it and  
get your deliveries working again.

-Barry

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From barry at list.org  Thu Jun  4 14:13:00 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 08:13:00 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
In-Reply-To: <PC192200906022150310967dea52d26@msapiro>
References: <PC192200906022150310967dea52d26@msapiro>
Message-ID: <EACB6749-A363-4745-BB5D-AB7418EE9C4A@list.org>

On Jun 3, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> XXX We used to classify bounces to the site list as bounce events
> for every list, but this caused severe problems.  Here's the
> scenario: aperson at example.com is a member of 4 lists, and a list
> owner of the foo list.  example.com has an aggressive spam filter
> which rejects any message that is spam or contains spam as an
> attachment.  Now, a spambot sends a piece of spam to the foo list,
> but since that spambot is not a member, the list holds the message
> for approval, and sends a notification to aperson at example.com as
> list owner.  That notification contains a copy of the spam.  Now
> example.com rejects the message, causing a bounce to be sent to the
> site list's bounce address.  The bounce runner would then dutifully
> register a bounce for all 4 lists that aperson at example.com was a
> member of, and eventually that person would get disabled on all
> their lists.  So now we ignore site list bounces.  Ce La Vie for
> password reminder bounces.

I hope we've all learned by now never to bounce spam back to the  
"original" sender!

-Barry

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From barry at list.org  Thu Jun  4 14:13:51 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 08:13:51 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
In-Reply-To: <20090603134323.GD4194@state-of-mind.de>
References: <20090601212514.GG5037@state-of-mind.de>
	<779CE739-0280-4F7D-8C70-AD94B9418EB8@list.org>
	<18982.30370.314247.863121@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<20090603134323.GD4194@state-of-mind.de>
Message-ID: <E4C9918B-B06B-466B-AD62-111E096CA7C0@list.org>

On Jun 3, 2009, at 9:43 AM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:

> * skip at pobox.com <skip at pobox.com>:
>>
>>    Barry> Remember that monthly reminders are a thing of the past.   
>> They
>>    Barry> won't be in MM3 and IIRC, they've already been removed  
>> from the
>>    Barry> MM2.2 tree also.
>>
>> Thank you.  As the person who maintains the mail.python.org spam  
>> filters the
>> volume of held messages I have to wade through is huge around the  
>> first of
>> the month because of bouncing reminders.
>
> I will definitely miss Mailman Day. ;)

Y'know, if we could only make those fun and viral, we'd all be rich! :)

-Barry

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From barry at list.org  Thu Jun  4 14:14:49 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 08:14:49 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
In-Reply-To: <4A252B8E.4010105@tekNico.net>
References: <20090601212514.GG5037@state-of-mind.de>	<779CE739-0280-4F7D-8C70-AD94B9418EB8@list.org>	<20090602050805.GB20033@charite.de>
	<A5C0E23E-611D-4923-A929-BEF7608AE019@list.org>
	<4A252B8E.4010105@tekNico.net>
Message-ID: <8755BFF5-1B2F-42CE-8F00-3B5088F36FF9@list.org>

On Jun 2, 2009, at 9:39 AM, Nicola Larosa wrote:

> Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> Are you asking because you think the monthly reminders still have a
>> valid use case?  I'd love to keep them killed off since I think the
>> headache they introduce (especially for admins) far outweighs any
>> benefit to users.
>
> Being on by default is a headache for users too. Every time I  
> subscribe
> to a mailing list, I have to go into settings just to disable the  
> damn thing.
>
> Should you reintroduce them in MM3, please set them off by default.
> Thanks. :-)

Indeed.  But I think they should stay dead.

> Nicola Larosa - http://www.tekNico.net/
> (the 1:30AM bossanova guitar player ;-) )

Which was excellent btw! :)

-Barry

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From iane at sussex.ac.uk  Fri Jun  5 10:46:36 2009
From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart)
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 09:46:36 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] monthly password reminder bounce reaction
In-Reply-To: <EACB6749-A363-4745-BB5D-AB7418EE9C4A@list.org>
References: <PC192200906022150310967dea52d26@msapiro>
	<EACB6749-A363-4745-BB5D-AB7418EE9C4A@list.org>
Message-ID: <FF25331E36FBB702DBA021EB@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>



--On 4 June 2009 08:13:00 -0400 Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org> wrote:

>
> I hope we've all learned by now never to bounce spam back to the
> "original" sender!
>

Except when you have a positive spf lookup result. In which case the 
"original" sender probably is in a position to stop spamming you.



-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
01273-873148 x3148
For new support requests, see http://www.sussex.ac.uk/its/help/

From brad at shub-internet.org  Sun Jun  7 23:08:42 2009
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 16:08:42 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] openID enabled mailman
In-Reply-To: <68779e050906071014s65115496ncf94b2c675efccb9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <68779e050906071014s65115496ncf94b2c675efccb9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A2C2C5A.9080709@shub-internet.org>

on 6/7/09 12:14 PM, Malveeka Tewari said:

> I want to know if there's already an openID enabled version of
> mailman available And what files would I need to make changes to
> include openID support in mailman

The OpenID project uses Mailman themselves, and they have hacked it to 
allow OpenID logins.  They even shared with us the code that they have. 
  I took a look at trying to bring this into the main codebase, and I 
was not able to figure out how to do that -- when they put in OpenID, 
they broke everything else, and I could never figure out how to get the 
two to co-exist at the same time.

IMO, this may be a better question to ask on their mailing lists, or to 
ask the people who maintain their mailing lists.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From malveeka at gmail.com  Sun Jun  7 19:14:20 2009
From: malveeka at gmail.com (Malveeka Tewari)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 19:14:20 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] openID enabled mailman
Message-ID: <68779e050906071014s65115496ncf94b2c675efccb9@mail.gmail.com>

Hi

I am working on implementing openID server for the mailman setup I am
running.
I have started using mailman only recently and need help/feedback on my
approach.

We want to provide the list users an option whether or not to have enable
openID.
 On the "" page, the users will see an option for

1. Enable/Disable openID login for your subscription
2. Sign in with existing openID login for your subscription

*1. Enable/Disable openID login for your subscription* *account*
For enabling and diabling the openID feature, the users login their
subscribed accounts as they do now for changing any of the subcription
options.
On this page if they enable the openID feature, they recieve an automated
reply with their openID identifier.

The password for the openID identifier is the same as that for the
subscription accounts. If they change their subscription passwords, their
openID password gets changed too.

*2. Sign in with existing openID login*
The user gets redirected to a page where it enters it's openID identifer and
the password and can now manage its account settings with the openID
identifier. This authentication and further logging, modification of
subscription configurations will be handled by the openID server.

As I understand, the *changes that need to be made to the existing mailman
code* include the following:

Changing the MemberAdaptor.py and UserDesc.py for including information
whether or not openID identifier is enabled for a paricular user.
Propogating changes made to openID-identified-accounts to the subscription
configurations.
Changing the webpage interfaces for provinding and allowing users to access
these options

I want to know if there's already an openID enabled version of mailman
available
And what files would I need to make changes to include openID support in
mailman

Thanks
Malveeka

From davidoff at lindenlab.com  Sat Jun 13 01:43:50 2009
From: davidoff at lindenlab.com (Andrew Davidoff)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:43:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Global accept_these_nonmembers?
Message-ID: <7468C852-9BDC-4FE1-A771-E861D599EA45@lindenlab.com>

Hello All,

Is there any reason something like DEFAULT_ACCEPT_THESE_NONMEMBERS  
hasn't been pushed up into MailList.py?  It would be handy for me to  
apply such a default, though I realize I may be in the minority.  I am  
considering applying a small patch to support this, but would like to  
know if something like this might be implemented in the future by your  
team.

I communicated briefly with msapiro in #mailman on freenode and it  
sounded like some work on mailman 3 (styles / templates) might be an  
area this would fall into.  This email is mostly a follow up to see if  
any one else has any thoughts on this.

Thanks.
Andrew Davidoff

From barry at list.org  Sat Jun 13 02:36:33 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:36:33 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Global accept_these_nonmembers?
In-Reply-To: <7468C852-9BDC-4FE1-A771-E861D599EA45@lindenlab.com>
References: <7468C852-9BDC-4FE1-A771-E861D599EA45@lindenlab.com>
Message-ID: <85772267-0E26-44E0-A2E6-E0318296E961@list.org>

On Jun 12, 2009, at 7:43 PM, Andrew Davidoff wrote:

> Is there any reason something like DEFAULT_ACCEPT_THESE_NONMEMBERS  
> hasn't been pushed up into MailList.py?  It would be handy for me to  
> apply such a default, though I realize I may be in the minority.  I  
> am considering applying a small patch to support this, but would  
> like to know if something like this might be implemented in the  
> future by your team.
>
> I communicated briefly with msapiro in #mailman on freenode and it  
> sounded like some work on mailman 3 (styles / templates) might be an  
> area this would fall into.  This email is mostly a follow up to see  
> if any one else has any thoughts on this.

Things are different in MM3 (there are none of the _nonmembers  
attributes), but they way it's designed now, you'll have similar  
functionality and it can be tied to the mailing list.

-Barry

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From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Jun 13 12:03:53 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 19:03:53 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers]  openID enabled mailman
In-Reply-To: <68779e050906071014s65115496ncf94b2c675efccb9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <68779e050906071014s65115496ncf94b2c675efccb9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87iqj0wiuu.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Malveeka Tewari writes:

 > 2. Sign in with existing openID login for your subscription
 > 
 > *1. Enable/Disable openID login for your subscription* *account*
 > For enabling and diabling the openID feature, the users login their
 > subscribed accounts as they do now for changing any of the subcription
 > options.
 > On this page if they enable the openID feature, they recieve an automated
 > reply with their openID identifier.
 > 
 > The password for the openID identifier is the same as that for the
 > subscription accounts. If they change their subscription passwords, their
 > openID password gets changed too.

I don't understand what you're trying to do.  The whole point of open
ID is delegating authorization to a third party.  If you want, you can
provide that service as well, but once you've enabled OpenID, you
shouldn't need a password for Mailman.  In fact, the Mailman password
should be disabled, as it is certainly less secure than OpenID at this
point in time.

 > I want to know if there's already an openID enabled version of
 > mailman available

The OpenID project has OpenID-enabled Mailman lists, but according to
Brad Knowles in the process of adapting Mailman to OpenID they broke a
lot of other features, and integrating their changes is non-trivial.

From malveeka at gmail.com  Sat Jun 13 12:43:26 2009
From: malveeka at gmail.com (Malveeka Tewari)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 12:43:26 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] openID enabled mailman
In-Reply-To: <87iqj0wiuu.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <68779e050906071014s65115496ncf94b2c675efccb9@mail.gmail.com>
	<87iqj0wiuu.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <68779e050906130343q5ba71fa4r87b5c43f3a438aaf@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Stephen

Thanks for your reply.
W want to implement the OpenID Provider for the mailman set up we are
running on our servers.
The idea is to use OpenID with mailman to provide single sign on for our
other user accounts like our wiki etc.
Our focus is on providing Single Sign On but we do not want to delegate
authentication to a third party. Hence we want to implement OpenID provider
for our Mailman service. and OpenID relying party for our wiki etc.

Now for the OpenID provider we may choose to have new passwords or use the
mailman passwords. For ease of users, we want to use the mailman passwords
for the OpenID provider.

I hope I have conveyed what I am trying to do. I will be thankful for any
suggestions

Thanks
Malveeka

On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org>wrote:

> Malveeka Tewari writes:
>
>  > 2. Sign in with existing openID login for your subscription
>  >
>  > *1. Enable/Disable openID login for your subscription* *account*
>  > For enabling and diabling the openID feature, the users login their
>  > subscribed accounts as they do now for changing any of the subcription
>  > options.
>  > On this page if they enable the openID feature, they recieve an
> automated
>  > reply with their openID identifier.
>  >
>  > The password for the openID identifier is the same as that for the
>  > subscription accounts. If they change their subscription passwords,
> their
>  > openID password gets changed too.
>
> I don't understand what you're trying to do.  The whole point of open
> ID is delegating authorization to a third party.  If you want, you can
> provide that service as well, but once you've enabled OpenID, you
> shouldn't need a password for Mailman.  In fact, the Mailman password
> should be disabled, as it is certainly less secure than OpenID at this
> point in time.
>
>  > I want to know if there's already an openID enabled version of
>  > mailman available
>
> The OpenID project has OpenID-enabled Mailman lists, but according to
> Brad Knowles in the process of adapting Mailman to OpenID they broke a
> lot of other features, and integrating their changes is non-trivial.
>

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Jun 13 13:37:51 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:37:51 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users]  openID enabled mailman
In-Reply-To: <68779e050906130343q5ba71fa4r87b5c43f3a438aaf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <68779e050906071014s65115496ncf94b2c675efccb9@mail.gmail.com>
	<87iqj0wiuu.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<68779e050906130343q5ba71fa4r87b5c43f3a438aaf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87hbykwei8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Malveeka Tewari writes:

 > Our focus is on providing Single Sign On but we do not want to delegate
 > authentication to a third party. Hence we want to implement OpenID provider
 > for our Mailman service.

I don't think this is a good idea.  Mailman is designed to deliver
single messages to multiple parties, which it does very well, and to
manage member lists, which it does tolerably well for many purposes.
It is not designed to keep secrets.  You may not now particularly
care, but it could be very annoying later if you decide you want more
security and need to switch your system.

Better to put your provider in a separate place from Mailman, and have
Mailman rely on and trust only your provider.  You could do them on
the same host if necessary but in the long run you might want to have
the provider on a dedicated host, depending on how serious you become
about security.

 > and OpenID relying partyOD for our wiki etc.
 > 
 > Now for the OpenID provider we may choose to have new passwords or use the
 > mailman passwords. For ease of users, we want to use the mailman passwords
 > for the OpenID provider.

Again, Mailman is not very secure.  In the default configuration,
passwords are mailed out in cleartext over non-secure channels (and
even so-called secure mail is pretty tricky -- it's much easier to
secure a web application).  The passwords are also stored in the
clear.  This means that if you want to set up OpenID for existing
users by transferring their passwords, it should be possible (I don't
know how offhand, though).

I don't recommend that, either.  Normally, people don't care that much
as there's not much damage that can be done via a mailing list, except
spamming, and most lists have additional defenses against that.  But
you plan to rely on these passwords to secure multiple services,
making the value of cracking one that much higher.  I would ask my own
users to set new passwords in this situation.

Of course, all these issues depend on a lot of factors.  You may have
better security than the default for the Internet in place, or much
more careful users, etc.


From malveeka at gmail.com  Sat Jun 13 16:16:15 2009
From: malveeka at gmail.com (Malveeka Tewari)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 16:16:15 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] openID enabled mailman
In-Reply-To: <4A2C2C5A.9080709@shub-internet.org>
References: <68779e050906071014s65115496ncf94b2c675efccb9@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A2C2C5A.9080709@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <68779e050906130716g2efc888cu1b219ce7de10c7e7@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Brad,

Can I also take a look at the code that the OpenID folks sent you?
It'll be great if you can send me any pointers to that code.
I asked on their mailing lists too but haven't received any promising
response.

Looking at the code might give me an idea about how to start implementing
openID support fr the mailman setup I am running,

Thanks
Malveeka

On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:08 PM, Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>wrote:

> on 6/7/09 12:14 PM, Malveeka Tewari said:
>
>  I want to know if there's already an openID enabled version of
>> mailman available And what files would I need to make changes to
>> include openID support in mailman
>>
>
> The OpenID project uses Mailman themselves, and they have hacked it to
> allow OpenID logins.  They even shared with us the code that they have.  I
> took a look at trying to bring this into the main codebase, and I was not
> able to figure out how to do that -- when they put in OpenID, they broke
> everything else, and I could never figure out how to get the two to co-exist
> at the same time.
>
> IMO, this may be a better question to ask on their mailing lists, or to ask
> the people who maintain their mailing lists.
>
> --
> Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
> LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>
>

From brad at shub-internet.org  Sat Jun 13 19:25:08 2009
From: brad at shub-internet.org (Brad Knowles)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 12:25:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] openID enabled mailman
In-Reply-To: <68779e050906130716g2efc888cu1b219ce7de10c7e7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <68779e050906071014s65115496ncf94b2c675efccb9@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4A2C2C5A.9080709@shub-internet.org>
	<68779e050906130716g2efc888cu1b219ce7de10c7e7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A33E0F4.7020508@shub-internet.org>

on 6/13/09 9:16 AM, Malveeka Tewari said:

> Can I also take a look at the code that the OpenID folks sent you?
> It'll be great if you can send me any pointers to that code.
> I asked on their mailing lists too but haven't received any promising
> response.

They never made any attempt to build an OpenID provider in Mailman.  All 
they did was hack in some OpenID Relyer code, and in the process they 
broke any other kind of authentication.

Mailman is the wrong place to put an OpenID provider.  That needs to go 
somewhere else, and then you can put in code that allows Mailman to be 
an OpenID Relyer.

> Looking at the code might give me an idea about how to start implementing
> openID support fr the mailman setup I am running,

I really don't think so.  They and you seem to have very different ideas 
as to where the OpenID provider code should go.

-- 
Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

From barry at list.org  Wed Jun 17 13:13:46 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 07:13:46 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] openID enabled mailman
In-Reply-To: <4A33E0F4.7020508@shub-internet.org>
References: <68779e050906071014s65115496ncf94b2c675efccb9@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4A2C2C5A.9080709@shub-internet.org>
	<68779e050906130716g2efc888cu1b219ce7de10c7e7@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A33E0F4.7020508@shub-internet.org>
Message-ID: <7725B8CE-9039-426F-972B-23749ED86087@list.org>

On Jun 13, 2009, at 1:25 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:

> Mailman is the wrong place to put an OpenID provider.  That needs to  
> go somewhere else, and then you can put in code that allows Mailman  
> to be an OpenID Relyer.

Well put, and I could not agree more.

What would be very helpful would be adding the necessary support to  
Mailman 2.2 and 3 so that it can be a relying party, and perhaps we  
can finally deprecate or kill off the stupid user passwords.

-Barry

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From raffenet at mcs.anl.gov  Thu Jun 18 21:00:54 2009
From: raffenet at mcs.anl.gov (Kenneth Raffenetti)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:00:54 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] should i be able to set a default
	accept_these_nonmembers?
Message-ID: <4A3A8EE6.4010307@mcs.anl.gov>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I recently had a request to make it so a Mailman domain I had setup
would include a default set of email addresses in the
accept_these_nonmembers field of each list.  I thought it was a
reasonable request as these people are responsible essentially all
things in that domain.  Default.py and mm_cfg.py are not currently setup
to allow this.

Does anyone think this is a reasonable feature request?

Thanks,
Ken Raffenetti
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From adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk  Fri Jun 19 19:19:29 2009
From: adam-mailman at amyl.org.uk (Adam McGreggor)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 18:19:29 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] should i be able to set a default
	accept_these_nonmembers?
In-Reply-To: <4A3A8EE6.4010307@mcs.anl.gov>
References: <4A3A8EE6.4010307@mcs.anl.gov>
Message-ID: <20090619171929.GF12458@amyl.org.uk>

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 02:00:54PM -0500, Kenneth Raffenetti wrote:
> I recently had a request to make it so a Mailman domain I had setup
> would include a default set of email addresses in the
> accept_these_nonmembers field of each list.  I thought it was a
> reasonable request as these people are responsible essentially all
> things in that domain.  Default.py and mm_cfg.py are not currently setup
> to allow this.
> 
> Does anyone think this is a reasonable feature request?

Yes, and no.

Yes, in that I can see some advantages/cases where it may be useful to
this, but no for a couple of reasons/prejudices:

    (a) if something's worthy of a list's attention, the poster
        should have the courtesy to be a member of the list (assuming
        these are other people, not, say, functional aliases, or
        whatever);
    (b) i'd imagine this may be a case of cross-posting. Which
        infuriates me. (How about having one list for everyone that
        needs to be on it, and if appropriate send *those* list's
        messages to other lists?)

In my instances, after creating new lists, i subscribe a series of
address (+ trusted domains) to the list -- or rather my list-creating
and configuring script does that for me (I like to do some
customizations with withlist: and am quite lazy.).


-- 
``Odd things, animals.
  Dogs look up to you. Cats look down to you.
  Only pigs see you as an equal.'' (Churchill)

From raffenet at mcs.anl.gov  Mon Jun 22 17:24:21 2009
From: raffenet at mcs.anl.gov (Kenneth Raffenetti)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:24:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] should i be able to set a default
	accept_these_nonmembers?
In-Reply-To: <20090619171929.GF12458@amyl.org.uk>
References: <4A3A8EE6.4010307@mcs.anl.gov> <20090619171929.GF12458@amyl.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4A3FA225.5080006@mcs.anl.gov>

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Adam McGreggor wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 02:00:54PM -0500, Kenneth Raffenetti wrote:
>> I recently had a request to make it so a Mailman domain I had setup
>> would include a default set of email addresses in the
>> accept_these_nonmembers field of each list.  I thought it was a
>> reasonable request as these people are responsible essentially all
>> things in that domain.  Default.py and mm_cfg.py are not currently setup
>> to allow this.
>>
>> Does anyone think this is a reasonable feature request?
> 
> Yes, and no.
> 
> Yes, in that I can see some advantages/cases where it may be useful to
> this, but no for a couple of reasons/prejudices:
> 
>     (a) if something's worthy of a list's attention, the poster
>         should have the courtesy to be a member of the list (assuming
>         these are other people, not, say, functional aliases, or
>         whatever);
>     (b) i'd imagine this may be a case of cross-posting. Which
>         infuriates me. (How about having one list for everyone that
>         needs to be on it, and if appropriate send *those* list's
>         messages to other lists?)
> 
> In my instances, after creating new lists, i subscribe a series of
> address (+ trusted domains) to the list -- or rather my list-creating
> and configuring script does that for me (I like to do some
> customizations with withlist: and am quite lazy.).
> 
> 
I considered setting up a quick wrapper to do this from the command-line
(in fact I did something similar to retroactively add addresses to all
the lists), but that would only work for those of us using the CLI.  We
generally hand off list creation to our helpdesk staffers, whom we
prefer use the web interface rather than give elevated privileges on the
actual server.

Ken
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From framstag at rus.uni-stuttgart.de  Sun Jun 28 13:02:07 2009
From: framstag at rus.uni-stuttgart.de (Ulli Horlacher)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 13:02:07 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] connecting F*EX and mailman
Message-ID: <20090628110207.GG30240@fex.rus.uni-stuttgart.de>


Perhaps you are interested:

I have written a mailman authentification CGI for F*EX
(Frams' Fast File Exchange http://fex.rus.uni-stuttgart.de/)

The F*EX adminstrator can enable mailman mailing lists for using F*EX.
The mailing list user then can use F*EX for sending arbitrary big files to
any other user.

You can see such a F*EX mailman authentification on
http://fex.rus.uni-stuttgart.de:8080/mma

-- 
Ullrich Horlacher              Server- und Arbeitsplatzsysteme
Rechenzentrum                  E-Mail: horlacher at rus.uni-stuttgart.de
Universitaet Stuttgart         Tel:    ++49-711-685-65868
Allmandring 30                 Fax:    ++49-711-682357
70550 Stuttgart (Germany)      WWW:    http://www.rus.uni-stuttgart.de/