From p at state-of-mind.de  Wed Feb  4 20:27:59 2009
From: p at state-of-mind.de (Patrick Ben Koetter)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 20:27:59 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] buildout problems solved
In-Reply-To: <E1BA567A-37F7-413D-B7D9-A05A08C0184B@list.org>
References: <080072FA-23E2-4C63-9178-9A7F67DD65D3@list.org>
	<20090128192521.GG13793@state-of-mind.de>
	<9DBF0DCE-E435-4096-A820-F480F3340E53@list.org>
	<20090128194328.GA15214@state-of-mind.de>
	<CB911700-7786-4801-B801-B6FAF6AACAA1@list.org>
	<20090129062912.GA27146@state-of-mind.de>
	<E1BA567A-37F7-413D-B7D9-A05A08C0184B@list.org>
Message-ID: <20090204192759.GA30245@state-of-mind.de>

* Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org>:
> Nope, I did.  It's a bug, but I only have 32 bit machines available to  
> me.  Still, I'll try to work up a fix. Stay tuned.
>
> In the meantime, this should not be a show stopper bug for you.  Just  
> ignore these failures and have at it!

A small fix now you've moved the sources to src/:

# diff docs/ALPHA.txt.orig docs/ALPHA.txt
68c68
<     For now though, start by looking through mailman/config/schema.cfg.
---
>     For now though, start by looking through src/mailman/config/schema.cfg.


p at rick

-- 
state of mind
Agentur f?r Kommunikation, Design und Softwareentwicklung

Patrick Koetter            Tel: 089 45227227
Echinger Strasse 3         Fax: 089 45227226
85386 Eching               Web: http://www.state-of-mind.de

Amtsgericht M?nchen        Partnerschaftsregister PR 563

From barry at list.org  Wed Feb  4 20:48:19 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 14:48:19 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] buildout problems solved
In-Reply-To: <20090204192759.GA30245@state-of-mind.de>
References: <080072FA-23E2-4C63-9178-9A7F67DD65D3@list.org>
	<20090128192521.GG13793@state-of-mind.de>
	<9DBF0DCE-E435-4096-A820-F480F3340E53@list.org>
	<20090128194328.GA15214@state-of-mind.de>
	<CB911700-7786-4801-B801-B6FAF6AACAA1@list.org>
	<20090129062912.GA27146@state-of-mind.de>
	<E1BA567A-37F7-413D-B7D9-A05A08C0184B@list.org>
	<20090204192759.GA30245@state-of-mind.de>
Message-ID: <F5AB583B-7BAF-45B3-9642-872D96B1E5E1@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Feb 4, 2009, at 2:27 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:

> * Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org>:
>> Nope, I did.  It's a bug, but I only have 32 bit machines available  
>> to
>> me.  Still, I'll try to work up a fix. Stay tuned.
>>
>> In the meantime, this should not be a show stopper bug for you.  Just
>> ignore these failures and have at it!
>
> A small fix now you've moved the sources to src/:
>
> # diff docs/ALPHA.txt.orig docs/ALPHA.txt
> 68c68
> <     For now though, start by looking through mailman/config/ 
> schema.cfg.
> ---
>>    For now though, start by looking through src/mailman/config/ 
>> schema.cfg.

Thanks!  Fixed in r6679.

Barry

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From p at state-of-mind.de  Wed Feb  4 21:15:23 2009
From: p at state-of-mind.de (Patrick Ben Koetter)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 21:15:23 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fail to create a list with MM3 ALPHA
Message-ID: <20090204201523.GD30245@state-of-mind.de>

I am having problems creating a mailing list with MM3 ALPHA.

Here's what I have done so far:

I created a config that overrides src/mailman/config/schema.cfg.

Then I started mailmanctl:

# /var/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -C /etc/mailman/mailman.cfg start
Warning!  You may encounter permission problems.
Starting Mailman's master qrunner.

mailmanctl is created the necessacry directory structure in /var/lib/mailman/:

# ls -1 /var/lib/mailman/
archives
bin
data
etc
ext
lists
locks
logs
messages
qfiles
spam


It seems to run well:

# ps axf | grep mailman
16215 pts/0    S+     0:00                  \_ grep mailman
16164 ?        Ss     0:00 /usr/local/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/master -C /etc/mailman/mailman.cfg
16167 ?        S      0:00  \_ /usr/local/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=retry:0:1 -s -C /etc/mailman/mailman.cfg
16168 ?        S      0:00  \_ /usr/local/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=out:0:1 -s -C /etc/mailman/mailman.cfg
16169 ?        S      0:00  \_ /usr/local/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=bounces:0:1 -s -C /etc/mailman/mailman.cfg
16170 ?        S      0:00  \_ /usr/local/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=command:0:1 -s -C /etc/mailman/mailman.cfg
16171 ?        S      0:00  \_ /usr/local/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=pipeline:0:1 -s -C /etc/mailman/mailman.cfg
16172 ?        S      0:00  \_ /usr/local/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=lmtp:0:1 -s -C /etc/mailman/mailman.cfg
16173 ?        S      0:00  \_ /usr/local/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=in:0:1 -s -C /etc/mailman/mailman.cfg
16174 ?        S      0:00  \_ /usr/local/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=virgin:0:1 -s -C /etc/mailman/mailman.cfg
16175 ?        S      0:00  \_ /usr/local/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=news:0:1 -s -C /etc/mailman/mailman.cfg
16176 ?        S      0:00  \_ /usr/local/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=archive:0:1 -s -C /etc/mailman/mailman.cfg


Then I try to create a list:

# /var/lib/mailman/bin/create_list -C /etc/mailman/mailman.cfg mailman at mailman.state-of-mind.de
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/var/lib/mailman/bin/create_list", line 18, in <module>
    mailman.bin.create_list.main()
  File "/root/mailman/src/mailman/bin/create_list.py", line 93, in main
    options = ScriptOptions()
  File "/root/mailman/src/mailman/options.py", line 80, in __init__
    self.add_options()
  File "/root/mailman/src/mailman/bin/create_list.py", line 47, in add_options
    super(ScriptOptions, self).add_options()
  File "/root/mailman/src/mailman/options.py", line 131, in add_options
    type='unicode', help=_('The mailing list name'))
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.6/optparse.py", line 1004, in add_option
    raise TypeError, "invalid arguments"
TypeError: invalid arguments


What should I do?

Thanks,

p at rick


-- 
state of mind
Agentur f?r Kommunikation, Design und Softwareentwicklung

Patrick Koetter            Tel: 089 45227227
Echinger Strasse 3         Fax: 089 45227226
85386 Eching               Web: http://www.state-of-mind.de

Amtsgericht M?nchen        Partnerschaftsregister PR 563

From barry at list.org  Wed Feb  4 21:31:57 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 15:31:57 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fail to create a list with MM3 ALPHA
In-Reply-To: <20090204201523.GD30245@state-of-mind.de>
References: <20090204201523.GD30245@state-of-mind.de>
Message-ID: <6EFD80D7-EC1B-406A-90AA-583BA0D8D379@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Feb 4, 2009, at 3:15 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:

> I am having problems creating a mailing list with MM3 ALPHA.
>
> Then I try to create a list:
>
> # /var/lib/mailman/bin/create_list -C /etc/mailman/mailman.cfg mailman at mailman.state-of-mind.de
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "/var/lib/mailman/bin/create_list", line 18, in <module>
>    mailman.bin.create_list.main()
>  File "/root/mailman/src/mailman/bin/create_list.py", line 93, in main
>    options = ScriptOptions()
>  File "/root/mailman/src/mailman/options.py", line 80, in __init__
>    self.add_options()
>  File "/root/mailman/src/mailman/bin/create_list.py", line 47, in  
> add_options
>    super(ScriptOptions, self).add_options()
>  File "/root/mailman/src/mailman/options.py", line 131, in add_options
>    type='unicode', help=_('The mailing list name'))
>  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.6/optparse.py", line 1004, in add_option
>    raise TypeError, "invalid arguments"
> TypeError: invalid arguments
>
>
> What should I do?

I'll try to fix this later today.  The problem is that I've enabled  
unicode literals in all the source files, but Python's standard  
optparse.py module does not allow unicode options (I consider this a  
bug in the module, may or may not get fixed for Python 2.6). The  
solution is to wrap the option specs in str().

The other problem is that the command line scripts are not well  
tested.  Eventually I'll add unit tests for those.

Barry

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From barry at python.org  Thu Feb  5 05:37:29 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 23:37:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fail to create a list with MM3 ALPHA
In-Reply-To: <20090204201523.GD30245@state-of-mind.de>
References: <20090204201523.GD30245@state-of-mind.de>
Message-ID: <3F384719-127D-457F-B969-2F652803B032@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Feb 4, 2009, at 3:15 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:

> # /var/lib/mailman/bin/create_list -C /etc/mailman/mailman.cfg mailman at mailman.state-of-mind.de
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "/var/lib/mailman/bin/create_list", line 18, in <module>
>    mailman.bin.create_list.main()
>  File "/root/mailman/src/mailman/bin/create_list.py", line 93, in main
>    options = ScriptOptions()
>  File "/root/mailman/src/mailman/options.py", line 80, in __init__
>    self.add_options()
>  File "/root/mailman/src/mailman/bin/create_list.py", line 47, in  
> add_options
>    super(ScriptOptions, self).add_options()
>  File "/root/mailman/src/mailman/options.py", line 131, in add_options
>    type='unicode', help=_('The mailing list name'))
>  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.6/optparse.py", line 1004, in add_option
>    raise TypeError, "invalid arguments"
> TypeError: invalid arguments

Fixed in r6680.
Barry

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From barry at list.org  Thu Feb  5 17:48:12 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 11:48:12 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fail to create a list with MM3 ALPHA
In-Reply-To: <056F7D4C76FA029AA13DCD91@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
References: <20090204201523.GD30245@state-of-mind.de>
	<6EFD80D7-EC1B-406A-90AA-583BA0D8D379@list.org>
	<056F7D4C76FA029AA13DCD91@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <5206971D-CAC3-49A8-AF89-48F8A57AC4CF@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Feb 5, 2009, at 7:59 AM, Ian Eiloart wrote:

> I think this is holding me up on my lmtp code. I need to be able to  
> write a test that allows me to create a list, add a member, and  
> change the member's posting permissions. All so that the lmtp server  
> can reject the message if the sender doesn't have permission to post  
> to the list.

Using the command line scripts in the test is not the right way to do  
that.  There are internal APIs for all that stuff.  See some of the  
existing doctests.

The command line scripts should be a thin wrapper around the internal  
APIs, mostly to do option parsing and a bit of setup.  Some of the  
older scripts haven't been updated yet, but that's the design  
principle I'm shooting for.

Barry

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From iane at sussex.ac.uk  Thu Feb  5 13:59:35 2009
From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 12:59:35 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fail to create a list with MM3 ALPHA
In-Reply-To: <6EFD80D7-EC1B-406A-90AA-583BA0D8D379@list.org>
References: <20090204201523.GD30245@state-of-mind.de>
	<6EFD80D7-EC1B-406A-90AA-583BA0D8D379@list.org>
Message-ID: <056F7D4C76FA029AA13DCD91@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>


>>
>> What should I do?
>
> I'll try to fix this later today.  The problem is that I've enabled
> unicode literals in all the source files, but Python's standard
> optparse.py module does not allow unicode options (I consider this a bug
> in the module, may or may not get fixed for Python 2.6). The solution is
> to wrap the option specs in str().
>
> The other problem is that the command line scripts are not well tested.
> Eventually I'll add unit tests for those.

I think this is holding me up on my lmtp code. I need to be able to write a 
test that allows me to create a list, add a member, and change the member's 
posting permissions. All so that the lmtp server can reject the message if 
the sender doesn't have permission to post to the list.

> Barry
>
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>
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> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/iane%40sussex.a
> c.uk
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9



-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
x3148

From iane at sussex.ac.uk  Fri Feb  6 12:14:48 2009
From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 11:14:48 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fail to create a list with MM3 ALPHA
In-Reply-To: <5206971D-CAC3-49A8-AF89-48F8A57AC4CF@list.org>
References: <20090204201523.GD30245@state-of-mind.de>
	<6EFD80D7-EC1B-406A-90AA-583BA0D8D379@list.org>
	<056F7D4C76FA029AA13DCD91@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
	<5206971D-CAC3-49A8-AF89-48F8A57AC4CF@list.org>
Message-ID: <EFBEA7684253C92C39CD42C5@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>



--On 5 February 2009 11:48:12 -0500 Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Feb 5, 2009, at 7:59 AM, Ian Eiloart wrote:
>
>> I think this is holding me up on my lmtp code. I need to be able to
>> write a test that allows me to create a list, add a member, and
>> change the member's posting permissions. All so that the lmtp server
>> can reject the message if the sender doesn't have permission to post
>> to the list.
>
> Using the command line scripts in the test is not the right way to do
> that.  There are internal APIs for all that stuff.  See some of the
> existing doctests.

Ah, fair point. I should have engaged my brain first. Actually, our tests 
do use the API. I'll shut up now, and take a closer look at why they're not 
working.

>
> The command line scripts should be a thin wrapper around the internal
> APIs, mostly to do option parsing and a bit of setup.  Some of the older
> scripts haven't been updated yet, but that's the design principle I'm
> shooting for.
>
> Barry
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)
>
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> =7LPX
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
x3148

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Feb  6 20:39:51 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 11:39:51 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 2.1.12rc2 released.
Message-ID: <498C9207.8000405@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I am happy to announce the second release candidate of Mailman 2.1.12.

Since 2.1.12rc1 there have been a few bug fixes and updates to the Dutch
and Catalan translations.

Mailman 2.1.12 is a minor bug fix and Python 2.6 compatibility release.

The minimum Python for this release is Python 2.4 and it is compatible
with Python through 2.6. The previous Mailman releases are not
compatible with Python 2.6.

See the release notes at
<https://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=653108&group_id=103>
for more details.

Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and
e-newsletters. Mailman is used for all the python.org and
SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.

For more information, including download links, please see:

http://www.list.org
http://mailman.sf.net
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman


Note to translators:

The mailman.pot is up to date in this release and has been merged with
the individual message catalogs. If possible, please review your
translations and submit any changes before February 20 if you want to
get them in the 2.1.12 final release.

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From barry at list.org  Mon Feb  9 00:12:33 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 18:12:33 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER
Message-ID: <FD75378C-AF1C-4C12-A913-4172D9250CFD@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Does anybody set USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER to Yes these days?

I'm considering removing the equivalent of this from Mailman 3.0 and  
I'd like to know if that would be a hardship for anyone.  If you don't  
know what this value is (which in Mailman 2 lives in Defaults.py),  
then you probably won't miss its demise in Mailman 3.

This flag controls whether the Sender: header is considered before the  
From: header for purposes of trying to determine the email address of  
the message's author.  At one time in the distant past, this flag was  
added because it was observed that some MTAs put the RFC 2821 MAIL  
FROM value into this header, and this was considered less spoofable  
than the From: header.  I think these assumptions are outdated and  
this workaround is either unnecessary or hurts more than it helps.

BTW, the default value is No, which tells Mailman to use the From:  
header first.  I propose hardwiring that default value.

Let me know if this would cause you pain.

Barry

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From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Feb  9 00:49:58 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 15:49:58 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER
In-Reply-To: <FD75378C-AF1C-4C12-A913-4172D9250CFD@list.org>
Message-ID: <PC18702009020815495803755323d571@msapiro>

Barry Warsaw wrote:

>Does anybody set USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER to Yes these days?


There are potential issues with this with umbrella lists. Perhaps
Mailman 3 will handle these differently, but here is the issue.

There are two message methods, get_sender() and get_senders().
USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER only affects get_sender(). With
USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER false, get_sender() returns the first address
found in From:, Sender: and unixfrom (envelope sender). With
USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER true, the order is Sender:, From: and unixfrom, so
it doesn't even really do what it claims.

get_senders() returns a list of addresses found in those headers
defined in SENDER_HEADERS. The default searches From:, unixfrom,
Reply-To: and Sender: in that order and returns all addresses found.

The Moderate handler first checks the get_senders() list to see if any
address is a list member. The first hit determines whether the post is
from a moderated member. If there are no hits, Moderate goes on the
search *_these_nonmembers for the one address returned by get_sender()

The potential issue is if you want posts to the umbrella list to be
accepted by the child lists without being held, one technique is to
put the umbrella's listname-bounces address in accept_these_nonmembers
of the children, and this requires USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER to be true in
order to work.

There are other ways to accomplish this that don't require
USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER. E.g. subscribing the umbrella's listname-bounces
address to the child lists with delivery (and password reminders)
disabled; using appropriate @listname entries in
accept_these_nonmembers, or making the umbrella anonymous and putting
the umbrella's posting address in the children's
accept_these_nonmembers.

Some of this is in the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/boA9>.


>I'm considering removing the equivalent of this from Mailman 3.0 and  
>I'd like to know if that would be a hardship for anyone.  If you don't  
>know what this value is (which in Mailman 2 lives in Defaults.py),  
>then you probably won't miss its demise in Mailman 3.
>
>This flag controls whether the Sender: header is considered before the  
>From: header for purposes of trying to determine the email address of  
>the message's author.  At one time in the distant past, this flag was  
>added because it was observed that some MTAs put the RFC 2821 MAIL  
>FROM value into this header, and this was considered less spoofable  
>than the From: header.  I think these assumptions are outdated and  
>this workaround is either unnecessary or hurts more than it helps.


I agree that the use of USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER as an anti-spoof is
outdated, particularly because it doesn't even come into play for the
member/nonmember decision.


>BTW, the default value is No, which tells Mailman to use the From:  
>header first.  I propose hardwiring that default value.
>
>Let me know if this would cause you pain.


I think it will impact some users with umbrella lists depending on how
(or if) umbrella lists are handled in Mailman 3.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From barry at list.org  Mon Feb  9 01:10:07 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 19:10:07 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER
In-Reply-To: <PC18702009020815495803755323d571@msapiro>
References: <PC18702009020815495803755323d571@msapiro>
Message-ID: <4785A76E-FB4C-4404-ACE9-A682493B435E@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi Mark,

On Feb 8, 2009, at 6:49 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Barry Warsaw wrote:
>
>> Does anybody set USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER to Yes these days?
>
>
> There are potential issues with this with umbrella lists. Perhaps
> Mailman 3 will handle these differently, but here is the issue.

MM3 should implement the functionality of umbrella lists quite  
differently.  My plan is to use roster composition instead.

> There are two message methods, get_sender() and get_senders().
> USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER only affects get_sender(). With
> USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER false, get_sender() returns the first address
> found in From:, Sender: and unixfrom (envelope sender). With
> USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER true, the order is Sender:, From: and unixfrom, so
> it doesn't even really do what it claims.

Indeed.  Strike one!

BTW, I am thinking about replacing get_sender() with a `sender`  
attribute, which would return the first non-false value from the  
`senders` attribute.  This latter is the new get_senders().  `senders`  
takes its cue from a configurable list of headers (which can include  
the envelope sender) and simply returns a list of all the email  
addresses found in the specified headers.

> The potential issue is if you want posts to the umbrella list to be
> accepted by the child lists without being held, one technique is to
> put the umbrella's listname-bounces address in accept_these_nonmembers
> of the children, and this requires USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER to be true in
> order to work.

Yep.  It's very unfortunate that USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER is a system-wide  
configuration.  Strike two!

> I agree that the use of USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER as an anti-spoof is
> outdated, particularly because it doesn't even come into play for the
> member/nonmember decision.

Strike three. :)

>> BTW, the default value is No, which tells Mailman to use the From:
>> header first.  I propose hardwiring that default value.
>>
>> Let me know if this would cause you pain.
>
> I think it will impact some users with umbrella lists depending on how
> (or if) umbrella lists are handled in Mailman 3.

Cool, thanks for this message.  The use case of composite mailing  
lists is an important driver for separating out the concept of a  
roster in MM3, and I expect that we'll have direct support for this  
without all the nasty workarounds or problems described in the FAQ.   
It's not there yet, but it is planned, and shouldn't need to rely on  
the envelope sender for posting permissions and such.

Barry

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From iane at sussex.ac.uk  Mon Feb  9 11:43:55 2009
From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 10:43:55 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER
In-Reply-To: <FD75378C-AF1C-4C12-A913-4172D9250CFD@list.org>
References: <FD75378C-AF1C-4C12-A913-4172D9250CFD@list.org>
Message-ID: <EE7D49C55DE2E1CFBAD612CB@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>

I'm not sure whether I do use it, but I think I should.

Most of our list users are in our own domain. That domain certainly is less 
spoofable in the envelope, because we don't accept mail from our domain 
unless it's been through our servers. We don't get spam with sussex.ac.uk 
in the envelope sender domain.

With SPF records now widely published, including by several large free 
email service providers, it's certainly within the power of sites to 
validate the envelope sender address of much of their inbound email. Losing 
this facility now would be a great shame.

I certainly don't see how having the option can do much harm.

It might be worth adding code to support BATV, if it isn't there already.

--On 8 February 2009 18:12:33 -0500 Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Does anybody set USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER to Yes these days?
>
> I'm considering removing the equivalent of this from Mailman 3.0 and I'd
> like to know if that would be a hardship for anyone.  If you don't know
> what this value is (which in Mailman 2 lives in Defaults.py), then you
> probably won't miss its demise in Mailman 3.
>
> This flag controls whether the Sender: header is considered before the
> From: header for purposes of trying to determine the email address of the
> message's author.  At one time in the distant past, this flag was added
> because it was observed that some MTAs put the RFC 2821 MAIL FROM value
> into this header, and this was considered less spoofable than the From:
> header.  I think these assumptions are outdated and this workaround is
> either unnecessary or hurts more than it helps.
>
> BTW, the default value is No, which tells Mailman to use the From: header
> first.  I propose hardwiring that default value.
>
> Let me know if this would cause you pain.
>
> Barry
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkmPZuIACgkQ2YZpQepbvXHsbQCgl78AxhkBTbATQbV7jab+P8a+
> F10An3skXX9Am4+BOk8gCqNaNiiVU1Vg
> =Ddit
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/iane%40sussex.a
> c.uk
>
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9



-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
x3148

From iane at sussex.ac.uk  Mon Feb  9 11:47:21 2009
From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 10:47:21 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER
In-Reply-To: <4785A76E-FB4C-4404-ACE9-A682493B435E@list.org>
References: <PC18702009020815495803755323d571@msapiro>
	<4785A76E-FB4C-4404-ACE9-A682493B435E@list.org>
Message-ID: <31B3A5331229151082CFC426@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>


>> I agree that the use of USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER as an anti-spoof is
>> outdated, particularly because it doesn't even come into play for the
>> member/nonmember decision.
>
> Strike three. :)
>

Our LMTP code is intended to make this decision before the message headers 
are even seen. Perhaps that makes the whole USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER option 
redundant.

-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
x3148

From barry at list.org  Tue Feb 10 21:59:10 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:59:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER
In-Reply-To: <EE7D49C55DE2E1CFBAD612CB@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
References: <FD75378C-AF1C-4C12-A913-4172D9250CFD@list.org>
	<EE7D49C55DE2E1CFBAD612CB@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <19699723-90D0-4BC7-B37C-CBF1FDC86B22@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Feb 9, 2009, at 5:43 AM, Ian Eiloart wrote:

> I'm not sure whether I do use it, but I think I should.
>
> Most of our list users are in our own domain. That domain certainly  
> is less spoofable in the envelope, because we don't accept mail from  
> our domain unless it's been through our servers. We don't get spam  
> with sussex.ac.uk in the envelope sender domain.
>
> With SPF records now widely published, including by several large  
> free email service providers, it's certainly within the power of  
> sites to validate the envelope sender address of much of their  
> inbound email. Losing this facility now would be a great shame.
>
> I certainly don't see how having the option can do much harm.
>
> It might be worth adding code to support BATV, if it isn't there  
> already.

MM3 does not yet support this.

So, I've landed a branch that gets rid of the MM3 equivalent to  
USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER, but it will still be possible to consider the  
MAIL FROM or Sender addresses in preference to From, if you wanted  
to.  I've implemented a site admin definable header lookup scheme so  
you can define the order that headers are considered.  By default it's  
From:, MAIL FROM, Reply-To, Sender.  This is a global order just like  
U_E_S was.

Barry

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From barry at list.org  Tue Feb 10 22:03:08 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:03:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER
In-Reply-To: <31B3A5331229151082CFC426@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
References: <PC18702009020815495803755323d571@msapiro>
	<4785A76E-FB4C-4404-ACE9-A682493B435E@list.org>
	<31B3A5331229151082CFC426@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <5DEB9C3D-88AF-4D03-B011-B963F35B4FD0@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Feb 9, 2009, at 5:47 AM, Ian Eiloart wrote:

>
>>> I agree that the use of USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER as an anti-spoof is
>>> outdated, particularly because it doesn't even come into play for  
>>> the
>>> member/nonmember decision.
>>
>> Strike three. :)
>>
>
> Our LMTP code is intended to make this decision before the message  
> headers are even seen. Perhaps that makes the whole  
> USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER option redundant.

I think so too.  How's that coming along?

Barry

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From barry at list.org  Wed Feb 11 15:04:18 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:04:18 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] PyCon 2009 sprint
Message-ID: <0CD888D5-73F0-4819-B303-FC1B5D757AA1@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

It's that time of year again!  Pycon 2009 is just around the corner.   
The conference is at the end of March in Chicago.  I'm planning on  
being there for both the conference and the sprints, and Patrick  
Koetter and his colleagues are flying in for probably one day of  
sprinting on Mailman 3.

If you're interested in joining us, I've created a sprint page on the  
wiki:

http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/PyCon+Sprint+2009

and I will fill this in as more information is available.  This year  
I'd like to concentrate on the admin REST server for MM3, and if  
there's time the web u/i.  I'll give a brief tour of MM3 as well.

I hope you can join us.
Barry

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From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Feb 20 19:40:44 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:40:44 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug in Mailman version 2.1.12rc1
In-Reply-To: <7F0AA25C9B1706448E8B73DFDD109B3106D1C0AB@EXCHANGE.TIGR.ORG>
Message-ID: <PC18702009022010404402658e62eef5@msapiro>

Goodman, William wrote: 
> 
>Feb 20 13:10:50 2009 admin(19709):
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>admin(19709): [----- Mailman Version: 2.1.12rc1 -----]
>admin(19709): [----- Traceback ------]
>admin(19709): Traceback (most recent call last):
>admin(19709):   File "/opt/software/mailman/scripts/driver", line 112,
>in run_main
>admin(19709):     main()
>admin(19709):   File "/opt/software/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py",
>line 164, in main
>admin(19709):     process_form(mlist, doc, cgidata)
>admin(19709):   File "/opt/software/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py",
>line 773, in process_form
>admin(19709):     comment = msgdata.get('rejection_notice', _('[No
>explanation given]'))
>admin(19709): AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'get'


This is Bug #325016 <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/325016>.
It was fixed in 2.1.12rc2.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Feb 20 20:04:36 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:04:36 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug in Mailman version 2.1.12rc1
In-Reply-To: <7F0AA25C9B1706448E8B73DFDD109B3106D1C0AC@EXCHANGE.TIGR.ORG>
Message-ID: <PC187020090220110436017145ab838f@msapiro>

Goodman, William wrote:
>
>I cannot perform an upgrade at this point when I was at the link it
>said:
>"The merge of line 773 from 2.1 to 2.2 rev 1027 implies it is recent
>code in 2.1." 
>what's the fix? in the /mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py ?

The relevant info about the fix in the bug report is

Related branches
 ~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1 (Mature)

    Fixed at rev. 1166.

You can see the changes at
<http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/revision/1166>.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From barry at list.org  Fri Feb 20 23:11:33 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:11:33 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] PyCon 2009 sprint
Message-ID: <5A051EA2-D695-4DBC-B62B-58875E4A19C3@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I've updated the Mailman sprint page for PyCon 2009:

http://wiki.list.org/x/XgB0

If you're attending PyCon this year and want to get your hands dirty  
with Mailman 3, please sign up!

Barry

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From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Feb 21 04:10:27 2009
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 12:10:27 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers]  PyCon 2009 sprint
In-Reply-To: <5A051EA2-D695-4DBC-B62B-58875E4A19C3@list.org>
References: <5A051EA2-D695-4DBC-B62B-58875E4A19C3@list.org>
Message-ID: <87fxi85vto.fsf@xemacs.org>

Barry Warsaw writes:

 > If you're attending PyCon this year and want to get your hands dirty  
 > with Mailman 3, please sign up!

For me it's, ah, "inordinately expensive" to get there.  Will there be
an IRC channel and virtual whiteboards, etc?


From barry at list.org  Sat Feb 21 15:32:59 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 09:32:59 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] PyCon 2009 sprint
In-Reply-To: <87fxi85vto.fsf@xemacs.org>
References: <5A051EA2-D695-4DBC-B62B-58875E4A19C3@list.org>
	<87fxi85vto.fsf@xemacs.org>
Message-ID: <7798B6B9-AE57-419B-99AB-90A35ECEA86B@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Feb 20, 2009, at 10:10 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> Barry Warsaw writes:
>
>> If you're attending PyCon this year and want to get your hands dirty
>> with Mailman 3, please sign up!
>
> For me it's, ah, "inordinately expensive" to get there.  Will there be
> an IRC channel and virtual whiteboards, etc?

Bummer.  But if there's interest, then yes I think we can at least do  
irc.  What are you thinking about when  you say "virtual whiteboard"?   
Google docs?

Barry

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From p at state-of-mind.de  Mon Feb 23 16:20:46 2009
From: p at state-of-mind.de (Patrick Ben Koetter)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:20:46 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] PyCon 2009 sprint: Webinterface
Message-ID: <20090223152046.GH18852@state-of-mind.de>

Barry,

I am collecting information for my work on the MM3 Webinterface while we meet
at PyCon 2009 sprint.

So far I have found the "Summer of Code summary"
<http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/2006/08/20/Summer+of+Code+summary>.

Any other information/writing I should collect and read before we meet?

I also believe I had seen a page where you (?) had noted a link for a design
you favoured, but I can't find it. Can you post the link or come up with a
list of sites you like? (Not that we weren't able to develop design. I just
want to get an idea.).

Thanks,

p at rick

-- 
state of mind
Agentur f?r Kommunikation, Design und Softwareentwicklung

Patrick Koetter            Tel: 089 45227227
Echinger Strasse 3         Fax: 089 45227226
85386 Eching               Web: http://www.state-of-mind.de

Amtsgericht M?nchen        Partnerschaftsregister PR 563

From barry at python.org  Mon Feb 23 22:57:31 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:57:31 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-checkins] [Branch
	~mailman-administrivia/mailman-administrivia/admin] Rev
	43:	Updates for 2.1.12 release.
In-Reply-To: <20090223214524.6374.63017.launchpad@loganberry.canonical.com>
References: <20090223214524.6374.63017.launchpad@loganberry.canonical.com>
Message-ID: <3E8A87AB-535A-4DAF-B9E8-7FF5C9533943@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Feb 23, 2009, at 4:45 PM, noreply at launchpad.net wrote:

> ------------------------------------------------------------
> revno: 43
> committer: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
> branch nick: admin
> timestamp: Mon 2009-02-23 13:27:11 -0800
> message:
>  Updates for 2.1.12 release.
> modified:
>  www/index.ht
>  www/index.html

pushed to gnu.org

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From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Feb 24 00:25:07 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:25:07 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 2.1.12 final released.
Message-ID: <49A33053.5090702@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I am happy to announce the final release of Mailman 2.1.12.

Since 2.1.12rc2 there have been a few bug fixes, the Polish translation
has been updated and a couple of items have been added to the contrib
directory.

Mailman 2.1.12 is a minor bug fix and Python 2.6 compatibility release.

The minimum Python for this release is Python 2.4 and it is compatible
with Python through 2.6. The previous Mailman releases are not
compatible with Python 2.6.

See the release notes at
<https://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=653108&group_id=103>
for more details.

Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and
e-newsletters. Mailman is used for all the python.org and
SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.

For more information, including download links, please see:

http://www.list.org
http://mailman.sf.net
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From barry at list.org  Tue Feb 24 00:54:01 2009
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:54:01 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Announce] Mailman 2.1.12 final
	released.
In-Reply-To: <49A33053.5090702@msapiro.net>
References: <49A33053.5090702@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <AC63326F-75F1-467A-8B0A-2C53D065C7A4@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Feb 23, 2009, at 6:25 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> I am happy to announce the final release of Mailman 2.1.12.

Thanks Mark!
Barry

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