From iane at sussex.ac.uk  Tue Dec  1 14:05:15 2009
From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 13:05:15 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM 3 alpha 4: UnicodeWarning
In-Reply-To: <4B143B8C.6050009@msapiro.net>
References: <20091129230304.GF24444@state-of-mind.de>
	<EC1955FB05045B93C42D90C9@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
	<4B143B8C.6050009@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <E94C3A6FC402DB43E4670EB8@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>



--On 30 November 2009 13:39:24 -0800 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> Ian Eiloart wrote:
>>
>> I got a unicode warning, too. Running alpha4 with python26 on OSX 10.5.
>> I didn't have Pyrex installed, and got warnings during the build
>> process. Don't know if that's related.
>
>
> It's different from Patrick's warning.
>
> In your case, the issue appears to be the non-ascii character (0xe2
> a-circumflex) in the name of the
> /Users/iane/Downloads ?/ directory

Ah. Good spot. That's ? alt-8 on an Apple keyboard. The character 
prevents my backup client backing up the directory. Wouldn't happen in a 
production environment. Thanks, Mark.

>
>>  File "/Users/iane/Downloads
>> ?/mailman-3.0.0a4/src/mailman/tests/test_bounces.py", line 193, in
>> test_SMTP32_failure
>>    with open(os.path.join(MSGDIR, 'postfix_01.txt')) as fp:
>>  File
>> "/opt/local/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/lib/python2
>> .6/posixpath.py", line 70, in join
>>    path += '/' + b
>> UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xe2 in position 22:
>> ordinal not in range(128)
>
> Presumably MSGDIR has the same "/Users/iane/Downloads
> ?/mailman-3.0.0a4/" prefix.



-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
01273-873148 x3148
For new support requests, see http://www.sussex.ac.uk/its/help/

From barry at python.org  Wed Dec  2 04:52:08 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 22:52:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MM 3 alpha 4: UnicodeWarning
In-Reply-To: <C189E7E2-B9EB-4752-A424-5FB0A2C1D010@python.org>
References: <20091129230304.GF24444@state-of-mind.de>
	<EC1955FB05045B93C42D90C9@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
	<C189E7E2-B9EB-4752-A424-5FB0A2C1D010@python.org>
Message-ID: <20052883-71D2-4FCD-B50E-7E73E5F958EE@python.org>

On Nov 30, 2009, at 5:56 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

> I'm not exactly sure how to fix this yet, but I'll try to see if I  
> can reproduce it locally.

I've decided I'm not going to worry about this. :)

-Barry

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From iane at sussex.ac.uk  Fri Dec  4 11:08:34 2009
From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart)
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 10:08:34 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3.0 alpha 4
In-Reply-To: <1086C8AD-5F5E-49B4-889F-3E1BF68891DD@python.org>
References: <1086C8AD-5F5E-49B4-889F-3E1BF68891DD@python.org>
Message-ID: <CFCC95C0A69B94522CF06801@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>



--On 29 November 2009 15:01:49 -0500 Barry Warsaw <barry at python.org> wrote:

> I'm happy to announce the release of Mailman 3.0 alpha 4.
>

The build instructions in src/mailman/docs/ALPHA.txt say that you can run 
bin/test before they go on to describe configuring mailman. I found I had 
to make a configuration file, and use "bin/test -C <CONFIGPATH>" for the 
tests to pass.


-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
01273-873148 x3148
For new support requests, see http://www.sussex.ac.uk/its/help/

From rsk at gsp.org  Mon Dec  7 03:03:58 2009
From: rsk at gsp.org (Rich Kulawiec)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 21:03:58 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Proposed: remove address-obfuscation
	code	from Mailman 3
In-Reply-To: <D759FA84-534F-4346-997B-87CB55EF2DF8@list.org>
References: <20090824143731.GA1949@gsp.org>
	<8763cc316y.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
	<D759FA84-534F-4346-997B-87CB55EF2DF8@list.org>
Message-ID: <20091207020358.GA2178@gsp.org>

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 06:39:29AM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> So you can explain why, in theory and in practice, obfuscation doesn't
>> work.  But the user base will (stubbornly, if you like) refuse to
>> accept your logic.
>
> As usual, Stephen hits the nail on the head.
>
> I can't disagree with much in Rich's post, and yet it's likely that  
> we'll still obfuscate and/or conceal email addresses in the archives  
> because users will demand it.  You can and should educate them, but this 
> is not a battle I wish to fight because I think we can't win it.

I've thought this over for quite some time (obviously), and have done
some homework elsewhere to ascertain whether both Stephen's and your
(Barry's) comments are accurate.  They are. Very much so.

There now exists a "cargo cult" mentality which insists that obfuscation
has some anti-spam/security value, in spite of overwhelming evidence and
experience that conclusively proves it has none whatsoever. 

(As an aside, not to either of you but in response to other comments
in the thread, I'm well aware of the concept of defense-in-depth and
practiced it years before the term became common.  But for any measure to
be part of defense-in-depth, it must first qualify as a defense, albeit
perhaps a weak or half-hearted one.  Address obfuscation obviously fails
to clear this bar, even as low as it's set.)

I don't know how to dispell this widely-shared delusion.  It may not be
possible, at least in the near future.  And it's probably not the role
of Mailman's (or any other software package's) developers to tackle this
issue; there's only so much policy that can be promulgated by code.

I think perhaps the best that can be done is to insert a statement in
Mailman's documentation indicating that this measure is provided for
people who want to use it, but that it really has zero value.  Whether or
not y'all want to do that is of course up to you, but I think at least
a nod to reality in the documentation might get some of the better
mail system admins to at least start thinking about the issue.  And maybe
that's the best that can be done for now.

---Rsk

From barry at python.org  Wed Dec  9 18:01:29 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 12:01:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Anybody looking for an insane project?
Message-ID: <36FB266C-454A-4233-8DD0-DBC33FB0471D@python.org>

If anybody is looking for something cool, crazy, and experimental to work on for Mailman 3, I have am idea that would fun to explore if I had more free time.

I wonder if RFC 3028[1] could be useful in Mailman.  This RFC defines the Sieve language for mail filtering.  I seem to recall that there's a Python implementation of it, but atm I cannot find it.  It's probably most appropriate for advanced users, but perhaps the new web ui could provide some simple access to the more common actions.

Some places where it would be useful:

* list admins for filtering out off-topic posts
* site admins for filtering out known spammers
* a better user-defined topic selection machinery
* users for defining which of their registered addresses to deliver to

I'm sure we'd think of lots more cool and wacky ways to use this if we had it.

So, who'd like to take up the challenge?

-Barry

[1] http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3028.html


From dave at aasv.org  Wed Dec  9 21:35:25 2009
From: dave at aasv.org (David Brown)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 15:35:25 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Anybody looking for an insane project?
In-Reply-To: <36FB266C-454A-4233-8DD0-DBC33FB0471D@python.org>
References: <36FB266C-454A-4233-8DD0-DBC33FB0471D@python.org>
Message-ID: <003701ca790f$24981f20$6dc85d60$@org>

RFC 5228 seems to obsolete RFC 3028. Okay, I think I found the project here:
http://sieve.info/

The most python-y thing I could find is on their servers page; they list
pysieved (Python Managesieve Server) but the link 404s. Looks like the
programmer's site is still running, though... looks like you could get the
files here: http://woozle.org/~neale/gitweb.cgi?p=pysieved;a=tree  This
doesn't appear to be an implementation of the sieve *language*, though...
it's a script management tool. 

Would it be necessary to implement the sieve language in Python or would it
be possible to just use one of the existing C libraries? (libSieve is under
LGPL)

Dave
--
David Brown
dave at aasv.org ; webmaster at aasv.org


-----Original Message-----
From: mailman-developers-bounces+dave=aasv.org at python.org
[mailto:mailman-developers-bounces+dave=aasv.org at python.org] On Behalf Of
Barry Warsaw
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 12:01 PM
To: Mailman Developers
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Anybody looking for an insane project?

If anybody is looking for something cool, crazy, and experimental to work on
for Mailman 3, I have am idea that would fun to explore if I had more free
time.

I wonder if RFC 3028[1] could be useful in Mailman.  This RFC defines the
Sieve language for mail filtering.  I seem to recall that there's a Python
implementation of it, but atm I cannot find it.  It's probably most
appropriate for advanced users, but perhaps the new web ui could provide
some simple access to the more common actions.

Some places where it would be useful:

* list admins for filtering out off-topic posts
* site admins for filtering out known spammers
* a better user-defined topic selection machinery
* users for defining which of their registered addresses to deliver to

I'm sure we'd think of lots more cool and wacky ways to use this if we had
it.

So, who'd like to take up the challenge?

-Barry

[1] http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3028.html

_______________________________________________
Mailman-Developers mailing list
Mailman-Developers at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Searchable Archives:
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
Unsubscribe:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/dave%40aasv.org

Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9


From barry at python.org  Wed Dec  9 21:57:23 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 15:57:23 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Anybody looking for an insane project?
In-Reply-To: <003701ca790f$24981f20$6dc85d60$@org>
References: <36FB266C-454A-4233-8DD0-DBC33FB0471D@python.org>
	<003701ca790f$24981f20$6dc85d60$@org>
Message-ID: <7FC98D7A-EDCA-4A7C-8E39-5304896B4859@python.org>

On Dec 9, 2009, at 3:35 PM, David Brown wrote:

> RFC 5228 seems to obsolete RFC 3028. Okay, I think I found the project here:
> http://sieve.info/

Hi Dave, thanks for the update and link.

> The most python-y thing I could find is on their servers page; they list
> pysieved (Python Managesieve Server) but the link 404s. Looks like the
> programmer's site is still running, though... looks like you could get the
> files here: http://woozle.org/~neale/gitweb.cgi?p=pysieved;a=tree  This
> doesn't appear to be an implementation of the sieve *language*, though...
> it's a script management tool. 
> 
> Would it be necessary to implement the sieve language in Python or would it
> be possible to just use one of the existing C libraries? (libSieve is under
> LGPL)

I think either would be fine.  If there were a pure-Python implementation of the language, we could possibly consider enabling it by default.  With a Python extension module talking to libSieve, we might want to make it optional.  But it's probably way too early to make that decision.

Mostly I'm trying to see if anybody would be interested in doing a little exploration hacking along these lines.  If so, I will of course help you get started; ideally, you'd hack together a Bazaar branch that pulled in the appropriate libraries and did Something Cool with them just as a proof-of-concept.

-Barry


From p at state-of-mind.de  Wed Dec  9 22:02:47 2009
From: p at state-of-mind.de (Patrick Ben Koetter)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 22:02:47 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Anybody looking for an insane project?
In-Reply-To: <7FC98D7A-EDCA-4A7C-8E39-5304896B4859@python.org>
References: <36FB266C-454A-4233-8DD0-DBC33FB0471D@python.org>
	<003701ca790f$24981f20$6dc85d60$@org>
	<7FC98D7A-EDCA-4A7C-8E39-5304896B4859@python.org>
Message-ID: <20091209210247.GB3459@state-of-mind.de>

* Barry Warsaw <barry at python.org>:
> On Dec 9, 2009, at 3:35 PM, David Brown wrote:
> 
> > RFC 5228 seems to obsolete RFC 3028. Okay, I think I found the project here:
> > http://sieve.info/
> 
> Hi Dave, thanks for the update and link.
> 
> > The most python-y thing I could find is on their servers page; they list
> > pysieved (Python Managesieve Server) but the link 404s. Looks like the
> > programmer's site is still running, though... looks like you could get the
> > files here: http://woozle.org/~neale/gitweb.cgi?p=pysieved;a=tree  This
> > doesn't appear to be an implementation of the sieve *language*, though...
> > it's a script management tool. 
> > 
> > Would it be necessary to implement the sieve language in Python or would it
> > be possible to just use one of the existing C libraries? (libSieve is under
> > LGPL)
> 
> I think either would be fine.  If there were a pure-Python implementation of
> the language, we could possibly consider enabling it by default.  With a
> Python extension module talking to libSieve, we might want to make it
> optional.  But it's probably way too early to make that decision.

Are we talking Cyrus' libSieve? If we are, I might throw in that the Dovecot
project used the library for a while and turned to a complete new selfmade
implementation. I don't recall the reasons, but I think it would be worth
asking Timo, the man behind Dovecot.

p at rick


> Mostly I'm trying to see if anybody would be interested in doing a little
> exploration hacking along these lines.  If so, I will of course help you get
> started; ideally, you'd hack together a Bazaar branch that pulled in the
> appropriate libraries and did Something Cool with them just as a
> proof-of-concept.
> 
> -Barry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/p%40state-of-mind.de
> 
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9

-- 
state of mind
Digitale Kommunikation

http://www.state-of-mind.de

Franziskanerstra?e 15      Telefon +49 89 3090 4664
81669 M?nchen              Telefax +49 89 3090 4666

Amtsgericht M?nchen        Partnerschaftsregister PR 563


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec 14 20:35:13 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:35:13 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 2.1.13rc1 released
Message-ID: <4B269371.2070102@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I am happy to announce the first release candidate of Mailman 2.1.13.

Mailman 2.1.13 is a bug fix release and contains a new localization for
the Asturian language.

Python 2.4 is the minimum supported, but Python 2.5.or 2.6 is recommended.

See the changelog at <https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/2.1.13rc1> for
more details.

Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and
e-newsletters. Mailman is used for all the python.org and
SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.

For more information, please see:

http://www.list.org
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman

Mailman 2.1.13 can be downloaded from

https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/
http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/

Note to translators:

The mailman.pot is up to date in this release and has been merged with
the individual message catalogs. If possible, please review your
translations and submit any changes before December 21 if you want to
get them in the 2.1.13 final release.

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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From FUNK.Gabor at hunetkft.hu  Mon Dec 21 00:53:13 2009
From: FUNK.Gabor at hunetkft.hu (Gabor FUNK)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 00:53:13 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman-Developers list's welcome mail
	formatting errors
Message-ID: <26F98F9CDF4E4ECDBAEAFE58B3CACF1D@M2007>

Hi list,

Just subscribed.
I take this broken recently or noone read or cared to report that this 
list's welcome mail have some "problems".

Header says, it is:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
[so it is not my mailer broken]

but body contains "&lt;"-s instead of "<"-s.
">"-s seems to be ok.

some quotes:
find out more information about this list at
&lt;http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users>.  Most
...
There is also an announce-only mailing list mailman-announce (see
&lt;http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-announce>), and a
...
Project page at &lt;http://sf.net/projects/mailman>.  You might also
want to check out the Mailman home page at &lt;http://www.list.org/>.
..
You might want to start by reading the Mailman FAQ (see
&lt;http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py>).  Also check out the
searchable archives at
&lt;http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/>.

etc...


g. 


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Dec 21 05:56:14 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 20:56:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman-Developers list's welcome
	mailformatting errors
In-Reply-To: <26F98F9CDF4E4ECDBAEAFE58B3CACF1D@M2007>
Message-ID: <PC1952009122020561401251a93b50b@msapiro>

Gabor FUNK wrote:
>
>Just subscribed.
>I take this broken recently or noone read or cared to report that this 
>list's welcome mail have some "problems".
>
>Header says, it is:
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>[so it is not my mailer broken]
>
>but body contains "&lt;"-s instead of "<"-s.
>">"-s seems to be ok.


Thank you for your report. This was an artifact of an old HTML
sanitizing method used to protect the web interface from XSS attacks.

I have corrected that portion of the welcome message and also updated
some other old information. The new list specific portion of the
welcome is now as follows:


Welcome to the Mailman-Developers at python.org mailing list! This list
is for discussion of the Mailman mailing list management system.  It
is open to people interested in improving the usability of the system,
including end users as well as mailing list managers and development
coders.  All new subscribers are moderated to ensure that the list
stays on topic.

There is a separate mailing list for people interested in discussion
regarding configuring and using the system -- mailman-users.  You can
find out more information about this list at
<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users>.  Most first
time posts that are rejected by the moderators are rejected because
they belong on -users.  Please do not send posts about
using/configuring mailman to -dev, only posts about developing belong
on -dev.

There is also an announce-only mailing list mailman-announce (see
<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-announce>), and a
mailing list for following the developers Bazaar checkins as they're
issued, see
<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-checkins>.  The
listinfo page includes (brief) instructions for hooking up to the
Bazaar repository over the net, for read-only access to the active
development tree.

If you want to report a bug in Mailman, scan previously reported bugs,
submit patches, etc., please start with the Launchpad Mailman Project
page at <https://launchpad.net/mailman/>.  You might also want to
check out the Mailman home page at <http://www.list.org/>.

You might want to start by reading the Mailman FAQ (see
<http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3>).  Also check out the searchable
archives at
<http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/>.


Note that this list is closed to postings from non-subscribers, and
that all posts made to the list will be publicly archived.

In order to protect the integrity of the list archives, we do not
routinely agree to remove or obscure posts that are in the archives.
We only do this in exceptional circumstances such as if someone has
posted personal/private information about someone else, or an
obviously private e-mail has accidentally been posted to the list.


Please remember to use mailman-users for posts regarding configuring
and using mailman, posts that are not regarding development.


The Mailman Security Policy is detailed in FAQ 1.27 at
<http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9>.

Before posting any messages to this mailing list, please make sure
that you have read and understood this policy.


-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Dec 22 20:02:18 2009
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:02:18 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 2.1.13 released
Message-ID: <4B3117BA.9080108@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I am happy to announce the final release  of Mailman 2.1.13.

Mailman 2.1.13 is a bug fix release and contains a new localization for
the Asturian language.

Python 2.4 is the minimum supported, but Python 2.5.or 2.6 is recommended.

See the changelog at <https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/2.1.13> for
more details.

Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and
e-newsletters. Mailman is used for all the python.org and
SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.

For more information, please see:

http://www.list.org
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman

Mailman 2.1.13 can be downloaded from

https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/
http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/

- -- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

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