From barry at list.org Tue Sep 2 15:49:26 2008 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 09:49:26 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Tracker migration to Launchpad Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 We're planning on migrating the current SourceForge trackers for the Mailman project to Launchpad, this Thursday at 1200 UTC. Expect the conversion to take several hours. The SF trackers will still be available during the conversion, though I will try to remove as much write access to them as possible. Please be aware that any changes that occur to SF issues during the conversion will be lost. I'll send another announcement when the conversion is complete. Cheers, - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEUEARECAAYFAki9RGYACgkQ2YZpQepbvXHVzgCYpzfBr9n7WwGqoBRyIRXiqTA2 4wCeLCg5VfMH79n6JJh23Cu+UxccGbk= =UBTV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From barry at list.org Fri Sep 5 22:27:04 2008 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 16:27:04 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Tracker migration to Launchpad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0148B39D-5F05-44D2-A18C-1980E331CF81@list.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sep 2, 2008, at 9:49 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > We're planning on migrating the current SourceForge trackers for the > Mailman project to Launchpad, this Thursday at 1200 UTC. Expect the > conversion to take several hours. > > The SF trackers will still be available during the conversion, > though I will try to remove as much write access to them as > possible. Please be aware that any changes that occur to SF issues > during the conversion will be lost. > > I'll send another announcement when the conversion is complete. This is now complete, and the SourceForge trackers have been disabled. From now on, please use Launchpad for all bug reports. https://launchpad.net/mailman Let me know if you have any problems... and enjoy! - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkjBlhgACgkQ2YZpQepbvXFKBwCgoQ2/GRMvWT5I1zH1aDxCkXp3 J7kAoKAOOUF2wyTF/PuzZ3wePyb6yhPV =PQS+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mark at msapiro.net Sun Sep 7 22:11:35 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 13:11:35 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Enabling topics with only one topic:can'texclude topic? In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: <48C43577.5070908@msapiro.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Barry Warsaw wrote: > On Aug 24, 2008, at 12:02 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > >> Note there would either have to be a special case where no subscribed >> topics and "Do you want to receive messages that do not match any >> topic filter? = No" means receive all messages, or change it to a >> 3-way option - "only subscribed topics", "subscribed topics + no >> topic" or "all messages" - and migrate the setting appropriately. > > This one makes the most sense to me. I think it will be easiest to > explain to users as well. I have made a first cut at implementing this. It still uses the ReceiveNonmatchingTopics user option behind the scenes, but it presents the 3-way option to the user. This is in the branch at lp:~msapiro/mailman/topics. The specific changes are at http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/topics/revision/1007 Comments are welcome. - -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) iD8DBQFIxDV2VVuXXpU7hpMRAsvkAJ421H2fAJpvG+rcF/yINKS+rQQZCgCcC0LA v2yEOreeF5jsnaayPDciaMI= =UEKk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From barry at list.org Tue Sep 16 23:17:41 2008 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 17:17:41 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Tracker migration to Launchpad In-Reply-To: <0148B39D-5F05-44D2-A18C-1980E331CF81@list.org> References: <0148B39D-5F05-44D2-A18C-1980E331CF81@list.org> Message-ID: <60FA0ED2-4A5A-4109-A8D9-F1CE92165167@list.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sep 5, 2008, at 4:27 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > On Sep 2, 2008, at 9:49 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > >> We're planning on migrating the current SourceForge trackers for >> the Mailman project to Launchpad, this Thursday at 1200 UTC. >> Expect the conversion to take several hours. >> >> The SF trackers will still be available during the conversion, >> though I will try to remove as much write access to them as >> possible. Please be aware that any changes that occur to SF issues >> during the conversion will be lost. >> >> I'll send another announcement when the conversion is complete. > > This is now complete, and the SourceForge trackers have been > disabled. From now on, please use Launchpad for all bug reports. > > https://launchpad.net/mailman > > Let me know if you have any problems... and enjoy! Some people pointed out that incoming links to existing tracker issues no longer worked. This broke when people referred to patches or bugs on the SF site. I've re-enabled the SF trackers, however it is not possible to make them read-only. I've settled for putting a big header on the tracker pages pointing people to the Launchpad bug tracker at https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman Do not submit new issues or comments to SF. We will ignore them. I hope this helps though! Cheers, - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkjQInUACgkQ2YZpQepbvXHXAACfflt904lW2rMB7TAYJMcOSQUd Kk4AoJwzRHNHG/jE17mpP6geVkAgxOrY =SlbS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From grabner at icg.tugraz.at Thu Sep 18 12:30:40 2008 From: grabner at icg.tugraz.at (Markus Grabner) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:30:40 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] (old) bug in gate_news Message-ID: <200809181230.40491.grabner@icg.tugraz.at> Hi! As requested in http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/devs.html, I would like to note that I noticed a bug in gate_news (mailman-2.1.11), for which a fix has been proposed a couple of years ago. I applied this fix, and it solved the problem for me, so I suggest that this fix goes into the next mailman release if the developers don't see potential problems with it. More details are here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/265941 Kind regards, Markus -- Markus Grabner - Computer Graphics and Vision Graz University of Technology, Inffeldgasse 16a/II, 8010 Graz, Austria Phone: +43/316/873-5041, Fax: +43/316/873-5050 WWW: http://www.icg.tugraz.at/Members/grabner From barry at list.org Fri Sep 19 17:12:28 2008 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 11:12:28 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-checkins] [Branch ~mailman-coders/mailman/2.2] Rev 1007: Since Mailman 2.1.1, 2.0.x outstanding subscription and held message In-Reply-To: <20080919150721.17561.76859.launchpad@forster.canonical.com> References: <20080919150721.17561.76859.launchpad@forster.canonical.com> Message-ID: <8B1CFC7D-E659-48F9-B7FE-E98C4958A489@list.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sep 19, 2008, at 11:07 AM, noreply at launchpad.net wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------------ > revno: 1007 > committer: Mark Sapiro > branch nick: 2.2 > timestamp: Fri 2008-09-19 08:03:18 -0700 > message: > Since Mailman 2.1.1, 2.0.x outstanding subscription and held message > requests have not been migrated properly. This is fixed. > Bug #266106 (sf998384). Wow. Thanks for fixing this Mark! - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkjTwV0ACgkQ2YZpQepbvXEVnQCfZhY8th9AtNoVlZk1YrKNvqM/ Q58AoILZJWxKVIXtjqk8vepQ6qYxvDEz =NWoB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mark at msapiro.net Fri Sep 19 23:00:00 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 14:00:00 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] (old) bug in gate_news In-Reply-To: <200809181230.40491.grabner@icg.tugraz.at> Message-ID: Markus Grabner wrote: > > As requested in http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/devs.html, I would >like to note that I noticed a bug in gate_news (mailman-2.1.11), for which a >fix has been proposed a couple of years ago. I applied this fix, and it >solved the problem for me, so I suggest that this fix goes into the next >mailman release if the developers don't see potential problems with it. > >More details are here: >https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/265941 I suggest the attached patch (gate_news.patch.txt) rather than the one in the bug report. There could be errors such as a bad nntp_host for a particular list that will throw socket.error. If we're going to not allow one list's configuration to abort processing (a good thing I think), we need to continue on socket.error too. Thoughts? -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: gate_news.patch.txt URL: From morgan.s.reed at gmail.com Thu Sep 25 23:28:06 2008 From: morgan.s.reed at gmail.com (Morgan Reed) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 07:28:06 +1000 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting Started with Mailman Development Message-ID: Hi All, I'm currently looking at creating a fork of mailman to add support for GPG encrypted mailing lists, however given that mailman is a rather complex beast I'm having trouble figuring out where to start. Can somebody direct me to a good structural overview of how all the bits and pieces of mailman fit together? Thanks in advance, Morgan From joostvb-mailman-developers at mdcc.cx Fri Sep 26 13:36:16 2008 From: joostvb-mailman-developers at mdcc.cx (Joost van Baal) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 13:36:16 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting Started with Mailman Development In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080926113616.GA1732@bruhat.mdcc.cx> Hi Morgan, Op Fri 26 Sep 2008 om 07:28:06 +1000 schreef Morgan Reed: > > I'm currently looking at creating a fork of mailman to add > support for GPG encrypted mailing lists FYI: Such a patch exists. Thanks to the NLnet foundation, it's currently under development. See http://non-gnu.uvt.nl/mailman-ssls/ for more information. Bye, Joost -- irc:joostvb@{OFTC,freenode} ? http://mdcc.cx/ ? http://ad1810.com/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 835 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From kyrian-list at ore.org Fri Sep 26 13:59:46 2008 From: kyrian-list at ore.org (Kyrian (list)) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 12:59:46 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "Orignal" MySQL Member Adaptor - 1.71 Message-ID: <48DCCEB2.5030304@ore.org> All, I finally managed to find some vestige of free time after midnight (hardly the best time to be coding...) recently, and accordingly put out a new version of my MySQL MemberAdaptor. I have no time, and little motivation (no customers wanting to use it at the present time) to test it, so I haven't, but you're welcome to try it out. It should according to the docs I found, provided I've applied them correctly, fix the non-ASCII character encoding problems (I've relied on the assertions about list members to cover that angle, and just checked encoding on the 'user supplied' parameters to various function calls). Now would be a good time for someone to send me a Python language reference book ;-) However since I've changed development environment since the last version, it's possible that various things have gone wrong (certainly the version numbering has gone mad between RCS and CVS/Eclipse), so don't do it in a production environment. I've put it here, as version 1.71, whatever that might actually mean: http://www.orenet.co.uk/opensource/MailmanMysql/ Incidentally, since Fil seems to be taking all the credit for what I started I think he should actually put a proper credit in there for me, linking to my business website at http://www.orenet.co.uk/ rather than the vague passing mentions that are in the docs/code of his version of the system at the present time. With luck I will be able to coax one of my customers into 'sponsoring' further development of the MySQL Adaptor with proper integration into Mailman in a sane way that is agreed by everyone instead of (as seems to be the case from what little of this list I have had time to read) just going off on its own sweet way and reducing the likelyhood of acceptance into the main code base of Mailman, but I am not sure how that will go. If anyone else wants to sponsor my time to code this thing better and further, then just email me. Best of luck with it, whatever happens. More updates in whichever year I manage to find spare/free time. Yours Sincerely, Kev Green. From fil at rezo.net Fri Sep 26 17:32:51 2008 From: fil at rezo.net (Fil) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:32:51 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "Orignal" MySQL Member Adaptor - 1.71 In-Reply-To: <48DCCEB2.5030304@ore.org> References: <48DCCEB2.5030304@ore.org> Message-ID: > Incidentally, since Fil seems to be taking all the credit for what I > started I think he should actually put a proper credit in there for me, > linking to my business website at http://www.orenet.co.uk/ rather than > the vague passing mentions that are in the docs/code of his version of > the system at the present time. I'm sorry if I did anything not appropriate. From what you see in the code http://trac.rezo.net/trac/rezo/browser/Mailman/MySQLMemberAdaptor/MysqlMemberships.py it seems that the mention you require is there. Please tell me how to make it better and I will correct it. More to the point, I fixed a few issues and added some features. Do you plan to take these into account in "your" version? If not we are necessarily "forking" this piece of code, regrettably, because I need "my" version in production. -- Fil From kyrian-list at ore.org Fri Sep 26 19:48:38 2008 From: kyrian-list at ore.org (kyrian (List)) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 18:48:38 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "Orignal" MySQL Member Adaptor - 1.71 In-Reply-To: References: <48DCCEB2.5030304@ore.org> Message-ID: <48DD2076.2070307@ore.org> Fil wrote: >> Incidentally, since Fil seems to be taking all the credit for what I >> started I think he should actually put a proper credit in there for me, >> linking to my business website at http://www.orenet.co.uk/ rather than >> the vague passing mentions that are in the docs/code of his version of >> the system at the present time. >> > > I'm sorry if I did anything not appropriate. From what you see in the code > http://trac.rezo.net/trac/rezo/browser/Mailman/MySQLMemberAdaptor/MysqlMemberships.py > it seems that the mention you require is there. Yes, that's good, although it's just a copy from my original code ;-) > Please tell me how to make it better and I will correct it. > "real people" don't read source code, if you can, something in the README as well would be good for me, thanks. > More to the point, I fixed a few issues and added some features. Do > you plan to take these into account in "your" version? If not we are > necessarily "forking" this piece of code, regrettably, because I need > "my" version in production. > That wasn't what I was on about. Don't get me wrong here, I want the same as everyone else; excellent quality SQL support integrated into Mailman. (note SQL, not MySQL, as a portable backend system is not used by my original adaptor [it's using the MySQL-specific MYSQLdb?] or I believe your fork of it!?), and I don't mind that you have snarfed my code and extended it in your own way, I'm glad of it. I'd just like a credit that 'real' users might actually read ;-) In order for that to happen, and for either version to be incorporated into Mailman 'proper', an agreement needs to be reached (and I may be out of date here, and one already has) betwen you, perhaps me, and the core mailman developers about how to solve at least the following: - The conflict between the old pickle way of doing things of iterating over a get-singular-record method numerous times rather than a grab-multiple-records-and-return-in-the-right-format which is more the way SQL works effectively. Whether that's a rewrite, or some way of overriding the existing methods to implement them better, I don't know. Perhaps I can look into this soon. Any hints from the core guys? - The two pages of suggested patches and extra changes to the core of mailman, eg. the CGI's and how everything should be merged together. - Implementation of getMembersMatching() - You *CAN* do regexps in mysql ;-) Although perhaps that would necessitate use of a mysql version check at instantiation time, or in the ping() function? That is what I *don't* like about your patch, I appreciate you needed to solve certain problems to get it going, but in doing so, I figured you have made it less able to integrate into the Mailman core, which is why I didn't just point everyone to your version, and kept mine as-is until I found some time for it. I really like the 'extend.py' method you came up with because it's waaay better than my method of importing the thing, and your documentation is probably better than mine, too. I note that you are in France (according to whois), which isn't impossibly far from London, where I am, perhaps we can get our heads together on this directly, after all France is the home of Kronenburg, which is a good reason for me to go there. I'm afraid I can't think of any others apart from Mailman and Kronenburg, though ;-) K. PS. Is Trac really as good as people seem to think it is? I've not started using it, but I certainly like the *look* of it? -- Kev Green, aka Kyrian. E: kyrian@ore.org WWW: http://kyrian.ore.org/ Linux/Security Contractor/LAMP Coder/ISP, via http://www.orenet.co.uk/ DJ via http://www.hellnoise.co.uk/ From mark at msapiro.net Fri Sep 26 20:02:05 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:02:05 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "Orignal" MySQL Member Adaptor - 1.71 In-Reply-To: <48DD2076.2070307@ore.org> Message-ID: kyrian (List) wrote: >Fil wrote: >>> Incidentally, since Fil seems to be taking all the credit for what I >>> started I think he should actually put a proper credit in there for me, >>> linking to my business website at http://www.orenet.co.uk/ rather than >>> the vague passing mentions that are in the docs/code of his version of >>> the system at the present time. >>> >> >> I'm sorry if I did anything not appropriate. From what you see in the code >> http://trac.rezo.net/trac/rezo/browser/Mailman/MySQLMemberAdaptor/MysqlMemberships.py >> it seems that the mention you require is there. >Yes, that's good, although it's just a copy from my original code ;-) I'm guilty of referring to "Fil's MySQLMemberAdaptor" in various list postings. I'll try to be more careful in the future. [...] > >In order for that to happen, and for either version to be incorporated >into Mailman 'proper', an agreement needs to be reached (and I may be >out of date here, and one already has) betwen you, perhaps me, and the >core mailman developers about how to solve at least the following: > >- The conflict between the old pickle way of doing things of iterating >over a get-singular-record method numerous times rather than a >grab-multiple-records-and-return-in-the-right-format which is more the >way SQL works effectively. Whether that's a rewrite, or some way of >overriding the existing methods to implement them better, I don't know. >Perhaps I can look into this soon. Any hints from the core guys? Mailman 3 supports a real user database back end. Barry has been doing all the work on this, and I'm not up to speed having spent all my time on 2.1/2.2, so I can't comment intelligently on details, but that's where we're headed. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From kyrian-list at ore.org Fri Sep 26 20:50:20 2008 From: kyrian-list at ore.org (kyrian (List)) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:50:20 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "Orignal" MySQL Member Adaptor - 1.71 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48DD2EEC.6090204@ore.org> >> Yes, that's good, although it's just a copy from my original code ;-) >> > I'm guilty of referring to "Fil's MySQLMemberAdaptor" in various list > postings. I'll try to be more careful in the future. Thanks. I'm not really sure what naming convention I would prefer, apart from just getting fully functional and suitably fast SQL support in there somehow. ISTR Python 'pickles' and similar methods were what caused a low-memory server of mine to take 3+ hours to upgrade using Yum, so personally I guess I'd like to dispose of them from Mailman ;-) >> - The conflict between the old pickle way of doing things of iterating >> over a get-singular-record method numerous times rather than a >> grab-multiple-records-and-return-in-the-right-format which is more the >> way SQL works effectively. Whether that's a rewrite, or some way of >> overriding the existing methods to implement them better, I don't know. >> Perhaps I can look into this soon. Any hints from the core guys? >> > Mailman 3 supports a real user database back end. Barry has been doing > all the work on this, and I'm not up to speed having spent all my time > on 2.1/2.2, so I can't comment intelligently on details, but that's > where we're headed. > Ok, well I did a quick check, but could not find a download link on any Wiki's or Sourceforge. I've subscribed to the MM3 developers list, though. I hope it's not too high traffic... Can someone tell me where to download the MM3 source as-is, or which source repository/tags to use to get hold of it so I can put my 2p in should I notice anything that could help, or find time to code anything in? Also, since there does not appear to be anything firm in regards a release schedule for MM3, I'd appreciate your input on how (just the name of the function I would need to override/rewrite would be enough) I might accomplish better integration for a "grab-multiple-records-and-return-in-the-right-format" method of getting member records, so I can see if there's a way to sanely do so in MM2.2. I can't even remember if the MySQL Adaptor works with 2.1 or not?? No doubt I could find it given time and picking through code, but I'd appreciate a pointer... It is quite strange, perhaps, but I suddenly have a lot more Mailman-motivation than I've had in a long while. Perhaps because I am bored stiff of PHP web development! ;-) K. -- Kev Green, aka Kyrian. E: kyrian@ore.org WWW: http://kyrian.ore.org/ Linux/Security Contractor/LAMP Coder/ISP, via http://www.orenet.co.uk/ DJ via http://www.hellnoise.co.uk/ From mark at msapiro.net Fri Sep 26 22:57:31 2008 From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 13:57:31 -0700 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "Orignal" MySQL Member Adaptor - 1.71 In-Reply-To: <48DD2EEC.6090204@ore.org> Message-ID: kyrian (List) wrote: > >Ok, well I did a quick check, but could not find a download link on any >Wiki's or Sourceforge. I've subscribed to the MM3 developers list, >though. I hope it's not too high traffic... The code is all on Launchpad. The main 3.0 development branch is at . This is in the wiki at The MM3 developers list is essentially dead. Look at [...] > >Also, since there does not appear to be anything firm in regards a >release schedule for MM3, I'd appreciate your input on how (just the >name of the function I would need to override/rewrite would be enough) I >might accomplish better integration for a >"grab-multiple-records-and-return-in-the-right-format" method of getting >member records, so I can see if there's a way to sanely do so in MM2.2. The main MemberAdaptor methods for getting members are getRegularMemberKeys and getDigestMemberKeys. >I can't even remember if the MySQL Adaptor works with 2.1 or not?? No >doubt I could find it given time and picking through code, but I'd >appreciate a pointer... > >It is quite strange, perhaps, but I suddenly have a lot more >Mailman-motivation than I've had in a long while. Perhaps because I am >bored stiff of PHP web development! ;-) > >K. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan From barry at list.org Fri Sep 26 23:09:41 2008 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:09:41 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting Started with Mailman Development In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sep 25, 2008, at 5:28 PM, Morgan Reed wrote: > I'm currently looking at creating a fork of mailman to add > support for GPG encrypted mailing lists, however given that mailman is > a rather complex beast I'm having trouble figuring out where to start. > > Can somebody direct me to a good structural overview of how all the > bits and pieces of mailman fit together? There isn't a good architecture document, but there should be, probably captured in the code or on the wiki. Your best bet is to dig in and ask lots of questions here. Mailman 3 is being developed pretty religiously using test-driven development and doctests, which are testable documentation -- but documentation first. It doesn't provide a good overview, but it does provide good documentation on the specific components. However, Mailman 3's architecture is different than Mailman 2.x in some significant ways. In some ways (e.g. the queue runners) it's very similar though. - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkjdT5UACgkQ2YZpQepbvXFL6QCdHy0pMvbgY36uXZLchPZhLsJ7 sYkAn07sKK/QVLhQuw8h00nYedv0Pb0v =etrq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From barry at list.org Fri Sep 26 23:10:08 2008 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:10:08 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting Started with Mailman Development In-Reply-To: <20080926113616.GA1732@bruhat.mdcc.cx> References: <20080926113616.GA1732@bruhat.mdcc.cx> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sep 26, 2008, at 7:36 AM, Joost van Baal wrote: > Op Fri 26 Sep 2008 om 07:28:06 +1000 schreef Morgan Reed: >> >> I'm currently looking at creating a fork of mailman to add >> support for GPG encrypted mailing lists > > FYI: Such a patch exists. Thanks to the NLnet foundation, it's > currently under development. See http://non-gnu.uvt.nl/mailman-ssls/ > for more information. Maybe this code could be hosted on Launchpad as a Bazaar branch? - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkjdT7AACgkQ2YZpQepbvXG35ACgoBhxeXU+bV6wfpjUUPzBQoDt oJ8An2kQ5Uqk91x+3/UJcS6Y9ow6YJBJ =Q/o+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From barry at list.org Fri Sep 26 23:45:58 2008 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:45:58 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "Orignal" MySQL Member Adaptor - 1.71 In-Reply-To: <48DD2076.2070307@ore.org> References: <48DCCEB2.5030304@ore.org> <48DD2076.2070307@ore.org> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sep 26, 2008, at 1:48 PM, kyrian (List) wrote: > Don't get me wrong here, I want the same as everyone else; excellent > quality SQL support integrated into Mailman. (note SQL, not MySQL, > as a portable backend system is not used by my original adaptor > [it's using the MySQL-specific MYSQLdb?] or I believe your fork of > it!?), and I don't mind that you have snarfed my code and extended > it in your own way, I'm glad of it. I'd just like a credit that > 'real' users might actually read ;-) Note that Mailman 3 is backed by the Storm ORM . Storm supports SQLite, MySQL and PostgreSQL out of the box, and it is my intent that MM3 should support all three out of the box, with either a simple configuration setting or at most a plugin written against documented and supported APIs. All the current tests use SQLite since that comes with Python 2.5. I would welcome developers to download and try the code, and to submit branches or patches that improve the compatibility with MySQL or PostgreSQL. I personally have not tried it with either database. > In order for that to happen, and for either version to be > incorporated into Mailman 'proper', an agreement needs to be reached > (and I may be out of date here, and one already has) betwen you, > perhaps me, and the core mailman developers about how to solve at > least the following: IMO, Mailman 2.2 should not change the pickle-based approach to persistency. I also think we should be careful about changing any APIs to the data model that MM2 uses internally. Mark is an excellent programmer and tests the code very well, but I always cringe when I think about how few unit tests there are in the MM2.x code base. That's another mistake of mine that I'm trying to correct in MM3. Mailman 3 also uses Zope interfaces heavily, and the code is careful to be written against these formal interfaces. In theory this should mean that it doesn't matter whether the data persists in a supported database, LDAP, Excel spreadsheet or flat files, with a properly written implementation of those interfaces, it should Just Work. Such implementations should be easily hooked into MM3 via its documented plugin interface. I'm soon going to be undertaking a bit of reorganization of the code. I want to make it absolutely clear what is core functionality and what is add-on. For example, pickup of email, moderation decisions, munging operations, and delivery are all core functionality. Email commands, RESTful admin control, command line operation, web interface are all add-ons. A little bit of reorganization will make that more clear, and I intend to release the next alpha once the core is functional. > - The conflict between the old pickle way of doing things of > iterating over a get-singular-record method numerous times rather > than a grab-multiple-records-and-return-in-the-right-format which is > more the way SQL works effectively. Whether that's a rewrite, or > some way of overriding the existing methods to implement them > better, I don't know. Perhaps I can look into this soon. Any hints > from the core guys? I hope the MM3 APIs are much more efficient for this. > - The two pages of suggested patches and extra changes to the core > of mailman, eg. the CGI's and how everything should be merged > together. I'm not quite sure what you're asking for here. > - Implementation of getMembersMatching() - You *CAN* do regexps in > mysql ;-) Although perhaps that would necessitate use of a mysql > version check at instantiation time, or in the ping() function? Can you explain what this is used for? In MM3, the core membership construct is the 'roster'. The interesting thing is that a roster is just a database query (for the SQL backend), so you could define any number of queries to answer various membership questions. > I note that you are in France (according to whois), which isn't > impossibly far from London, where I am, perhaps we can get our heads > together on this directly, after all France is the home of > Kronenburg, which is a good reason for me to go there. I'm afraid I > can't think of any others apart from Mailman and Kronenburg, > though ;-) Aside: I'm going to be in London the last two weeks of October, and while it'll be very work focussed, I'd love to arrange a meet-up with any UK Mailman hackers. - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkjdWBYACgkQ2YZpQepbvXG9FQCfWPD5nlkiIju2aUz0MXkUxVxq QMMAn3awr3PVSosJjgEjRx3qOThi6VgP =lja4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From barry at list.org Fri Sep 26 23:48:26 2008 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:48:26 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "Orignal" MySQL Member Adaptor - 1.71 In-Reply-To: <48DD2EEC.6090204@ore.org> References: <48DD2EEC.6090204@ore.org> Message-ID: <48050CA7-BAE9-41C7-873C-839BE042F3BA@list.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sep 26, 2008, at 2:50 PM, kyrian (List) wrote: > ISTR Python 'pickles' and similar methods were what caused a low- > memory server of mine to take 3+ hours to upgrade using Yum, so > personally I guess I'd like to dispose of them from Mailman ;-) Pickles were a great way to do persistency in Python... in 1996! > Can someone tell me where to download the MM3 source as-is, or which > source repository/tags to use to get hold of it so I can put my 2p > in should I notice anything that could help, or find time to code > anything in? Mark provided the links (thanks!). Let us know if you're still having trouble finding things. - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkjdWKoACgkQ2YZpQepbvXFBiwCeI8T0vGAFZ/vYPYEOpojSwuqd HcQAn3E4GIJTcsHXwzBmg/P02MZDbzXB =JxOe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From barry at list.org Fri Sep 26 23:49:12 2008 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:49:12 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "Orignal" MySQL Member Adaptor - 1.71 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93B16861-A3F1-4F9C-B216-08203578B582@list.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sep 26, 2008, at 4:57 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: > The MM3 developers list is essentially dead. Look at > I'd totally forgotten about that list. Any objections if I just delete it (keeping the archives of course)? - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkjdWNgACgkQ2YZpQepbvXHNdACdEmqkjq/lrWSZ6VvY0ixptskM /UMAnAgtOEh52n7NHo+YKYBWYuFnhevt =Zsle -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From pabs3 at bonedaddy.net Sat Sep 27 05:10:11 2008 From: pabs3 at bonedaddy.net (Paul Wise) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 11:10:11 +0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting Started with Mailman Development In-Reply-To: References: <20080926113616.GA1732@bruhat.mdcc.cx> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 5:10 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > Maybe this code could be hosted on Launchpad as a Bazaar branch? What about merging it into the 2.2 or 3.0 branches? Also: Indymedia did a summary of encrypted mailing list options in 2006: http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/listwork/2006-February/0203-uh.html -- bye, pabs http://bonedaddy.net/pabs3/ From barry at list.org Sat Sep 27 05:22:49 2008 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 23:22:49 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting Started with Mailman Development In-Reply-To: References: <20080926113616.GA1732@bruhat.mdcc.cx> Message-ID: <7570A486-8AD0-487A-BCDE-E7193F6971F6@list.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sep 26, 2008, at 11:10 PM, Paul Wise wrote: > On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 5:10 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > >> Maybe this code could be hosted on Launchpad as a Bazaar branch? > > What about merging it into the 2.2 or 3.0 branches? > > Also: Indymedia did a summary of encrypted mailing list options in > 2006: > > http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/listwork/2006-February/0203-uh.html If there were branches on Launchpad that were ready for review, I'd be happy to take a look at them. They should definitely include tests and documentation, and a description of the design should probably be added to the wiki. - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkjdpwkACgkQ2YZpQepbvXEpVACeKWtU5Z3YSFBKUomT2jJ/0ScA J3YAn2tdB5+31FJG1iV0XdL7aFKsbU7h =xjeU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From barry at list.org Sat Sep 27 05:23:38 2008 From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 23:23:38 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] (old) bug in gate_news In-Reply-To: <200809181230.40491.grabner@icg.tugraz.at> References: <200809181230.40491.grabner@icg.tugraz.at> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sep 18, 2008, at 6:30 AM, Markus Grabner wrote: > As requested in http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/devs.html, I > would > like to note that I noticed a bug in gate_news (mailman-2.1.11), for > which a > fix has been proposed a couple of years ago. I applied this fix, and > it > solved the problem for me, so I suggest that this fix goes into the > next > mailman release if the developers don't see potential problems with > it. > > More details are here: > https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/265941 BTW, I've updated the devs.html page so that it contains the up-to- date information on the move to Launchpad. - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkjdpzoACgkQ2YZpQepbvXFYpwCfUquorE4X1Jn/9mYcMqhtZ/Zy sX4AnRpSgYa8DIeuZOhHZDoNkkD513cl =f8qg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From pabs3 at bonedaddy.net Sat Sep 27 05:26:37 2008 From: pabs3 at bonedaddy.net (Paul Wise) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 11:26:37 +0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting Started with Mailman Development In-Reply-To: <7570A486-8AD0-487A-BCDE-E7193F6971F6@list.org> References: <20080926113616.GA1732@bruhat.mdcc.cx> <7570A486-8AD0-487A-BCDE-E7193F6971F6@list.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > If there were branches on Launchpad that were ready for review, I'd be happy > to take a look at them. They should definitely include tests and > documentation, and a description of the design should probably be added to > the wiki. Perhaps Joost can comment on how ready this is: https://code.launchpad.net/~joostvb/mailman/2.1-pgp-smime -- bye, pabs http://bonedaddy.net/pabs3/ From fil at rezo.net Sat Sep 27 09:43:22 2008 From: fil at rezo.net (Fil) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 09:43:22 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "Orignal" MySQL Member Adaptor - 1.71 In-Reply-To: <48DD2076.2070307@ore.org> References: <48DCCEB2.5030304@ore.org> <48DD2076.2070307@ore.org> Message-ID: Hi Kev, I've added the proper URLs in the README. As for further developments I'll have to pass, as I'll be switchwing to MM3 before I have time to develop more that small fixes to Mailman and/or this adapter. > PS. Is Trac really as good as people seem to think it is? I've not started > using it, but I certainly like the *look* of it? I do like SVN/trac, yes, I use it quite extensively with a few big projects and it's working great. -- Fil From stephen at xemacs.org Sat Sep 27 10:21:16 2008 From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 17:21:16 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "Orignal" MySQL Member Adaptor - 1.71 In-Reply-To: <48DD2076.2070307@ore.org> References: <48DCCEB2.5030304@ore.org> <48DD2076.2070307@ore.org> Message-ID: <87iqsif18j.fsf@xemacs.org> kyrian (List) writes: > PS. Is Trac really as good as people seem to think it is? I've not > started using it, but I certainly like the *look* of it? Well, the MacPorts people switched to Trac advertising it as "our wonderful new Trac", and indeed for the first year I wondered how to use it, especially for searching bugs. I ended up simply ignoring all courtesy, and submitted everything as a new bug and let the core devs classify them or find dupes. The number of dupes I've run into suggests that's what everybody does on MacPorts. :-( At this point that Trac has gotten somewhat better, but I would say that when you start up you probably need to pay careful attention to configuration, especially to priming it with useful searches. From kyrian-list at ore.org Sat Sep 27 15:11:05 2008 From: kyrian-list at ore.org (Kyrian (List)) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 14:11:05 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MySQL Member Adaptor(s) - Various comments. In-Reply-To: References: <48DCCEB2.5030304@ore.org> <48DD2076.2070307@ore.org> Message-ID: <48DE30E9.30501@ore.org> Apologies for any confusion cause by posting by CC to this list, while emailing people directly. I was mainly responding to Fil, CC the list. Fil wrote: > I've added the proper URLs in the README. > Thanks. > As for further developments I'll have to pass, as I'll be switchwing > to MM3 before I have time to develop more that small fixes to Mailman > and/or this adapter. > I think this is about the right way to go about things. I were you, I would be inclined incorporate the small-ish character set fixes I've put into my code (or something like them, given it's as yet untested) into your fork of the MySQL Member Adaptor for MM2.x... I'm "considering" pointing people from my own download location to your version at this point, FWIW. Others wrote variously... About MM2 code: Thanks, I will poke around in "getRegularMemberKeys and getDigestMemberKeys" to see if I can see a sane method of integration happening 'in band'. I can see where Fil is coming from a bit more having poked around his Trac archive, and it's probably not as much of an issue as I imagined where he's diverged from existing MM structure. If I have it right, the only really significant "out of band" change is that he's basically just replaced the search backend for the admin pages to optimise fetching data on multiple list members at once, which I knew from the start would suck badly given the way the API worked 'in band'. The remainder of those changes seem to be docs, cosmetics and add-ons. Some diff patches wouldn't go amiss though I suppose for more sane application of the changes, which is not so dependent on precise MM version. About MM3 resources: Thanks, these will be noted in my Wiki for whenever I find time to look at it. And about Trac: Thanks, err, about the same response there, either Wiki or Brain. Last but by no means least, about beer in london: Certainly, there are many worthy pubs in central london which would be ideal. Probably best worked out offlist between any interested parties, though. I guess the main questions are: types of beer, preferences for type of establishment, noise levels, music, etc? K. -- Kev Green, aka Kyrian. E: kyrian@ore.org WWW: http://kyrian.ore.org/ Linux/Security Contractor/LAMP Coder/ISP, via http://www.orenet.co.uk/ DJ via http://www.hellnoise.co.uk/ From kyrian-list at ore.org Sat Sep 27 16:07:00 2008 From: kyrian-list at ore.org (Kyrian (List)) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 15:07:00 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Analysis of MM2.x Admin slowness with, (not "because of") MySQL adaptor(s). Message-ID: <48DE3E04.6060000@ore.org> Folks, Okay, I've actually picked through the code (both the MySQL adaptor and Fil's code) on this one and made a couple of observations, and I think I've definitively found the culprit here. We're looking at Mailman/Cgi/admin.py here. Lines 871 onwards, for between 5 and 20 lines depending on whether you're looking at Fil's modified code or the distributed version. This is the case (although different code surrounds the offending bits) up to and including the latest 2.1.11 version, and of course only if I read the Python right ;-) First pass of the code suggested that Fil's code was a bit wide of the mark, although it would work for searches. This is because the patched code only uses his getMembersMatching() method if we are not given an empty search string (and the code uses the same search method of getMembers() with an empty string as a defined search string), so listing all members in order with Fil's code will be missing the "names" array, and be fast, but my original will populate the "names" array, and be cripplingly slow for large lists. This, however is not the source of the problem. Fil's code seems to only call his getMembersMatching() method to populate the 'all' array, and disregards the users "names" array, which is populated in the normal version. I don't suppose he's bothered about people's 'real name' values ;-) This is the root cause of the problem, because it's doing a foreach-type loop through all the members retrieved by getMembers() to get their names individually, rather than making a single database call to get them all, which would seem to be the cause of the slowness. It is even noted by Barry that this bit of code sucks: # BAW: There's got to be a more efficient way of doing this! names = [mlist.getMemberName(s) or '' for s in all] Therefore I would propose a change to admin.py that calls a member adaptor's mlist.getAllMemberNames() if it exists/is implemented, otherwise defaults to doing the aforementioned instead, which is ok for pickles. The obvious caveat is that getAllMemberNames() MUST return members in the same order as the getMembers() function or it'll cause funny things to happen. As long as we know what to sling into the SQL 'ORDER BY' that'll be fine though. I'd assume ordering by lower case address is the way it happens by default?? I suppose you could just move that offending line of code into a getAllMemberNames() function in OldStyleMemberships.py too though? This would allow SQL to do its thing in two shots (once for names, and once for addresses) rather than loads of individual user queries (once for addresses, loads of times for names), and remove the bottleneck, while also minimising the required mangling of core code. It would also allow backward compatibility, just *very slow* backward compatibility by not calling the new method in the adaptor ;-) Comments? K. -- Kev Green, aka Kyrian. E: kyrian@ore.org WWW: http://kyrian.ore.org/ Linux/Security Contractor/LAMP Coder/ISP, via http://www.orenet.co.uk/ DJ via http://www.hellnoise.co.uk/ From joostvb-mailman-developers at mdcc.cx Sun Sep 28 12:46:28 2008 From: joostvb-mailman-developers at mdcc.cx (Joost van Baal) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 12:46:28 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting Started with Mailman Development In-Reply-To: References: <20080926113616.GA1732@bruhat.mdcc.cx> Message-ID: <20080928104628.GR11325@bruhat.mdcc.cx> Op Fri 26 Sep 2008 om 05:10:08 -0400 schreef Barry Warsaw: > On Sep 26, 2008, at 7:36 AM, Joost van Baal wrote: >> Op Fri 26 Sep 2008 om 07:28:06 +1000 schreef Morgan Reed: >>> >>> I'm currently looking at creating a fork of mailman to add >>> support for GPG encrypted mailing lists >> >> FYI: Such a patch exists. Thanks to the NLnet foundation, it's >> currently under development. See http://non-gnu.uvt.nl/mailman-ssls/ >> for more information. > > Maybe this code could be hosted on Launchpad as a Bazaar branch? FWIW: It is: http://non-gnu.uvt.nl/mailman-pgp-smime/ links to https://code.launchpad.net/~joostvb/mailman/2.1-pgp-smime . Bye, Joost -- irc:joostvb@{OFTC,freenode} ? http://mdcc.cx/ ? http://ad1810.com/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 835 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From joostvb-mailman-developers at mdcc.cx Sun Sep 28 12:50:21 2008 From: joostvb-mailman-developers at mdcc.cx (Joost van Baal) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 12:50:21 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman-pgp-smime (was: Re: Getting Started with Mailman Development) In-Reply-To: References: <20080926113616.GA1732@bruhat.mdcc.cx> Message-ID: <20080928105021.GS11325@bruhat.mdcc.cx> Op Sat 27 Sep 2008 om 11:10:11 +0800 schreef Paul Wise: > On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 5:10 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > > > Maybe this code could be hosted on Launchpad as a Bazaar branch? > > What about merging it into the 2.2 or 3.0 branches? That'd be _very_ useful indeed. I myself however don't have the time to do that... > Also: Indymedia did a summary of encrypted mailing list options in 2006: > http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/listwork/2006-February/0203-uh.html The bottom of http://non-gnu.uvt.nl/mailman-pgp-smime/ has an overview I made in march 2008, using the Indymedia one. Thanks, Bye, Joost -- irc:joostvb@{OFTC,freenode} ? http://mdcc.cx/ ? http://ad1810.com/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 835 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From joostvb-mailman-developers at mdcc.cx Sun Sep 28 13:09:12 2008 From: joostvb-mailman-developers at mdcc.cx (Joost van Baal) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 13:09:12 +0200 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman-pgp-smime (was: Re: Getting Started with Mailman Development) In-Reply-To: References: <20080926113616.GA1732@bruhat.mdcc.cx> <7570A486-8AD0-487A-BCDE-E7193F6971F6@list.org> Message-ID: <20080928110912.GT11325@bruhat.mdcc.cx> Op Sat 27 Sep 2008 om 11:26:37 +0800 schreef Paul Wise: > On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > > > If there were branches on Launchpad that were ready for review, I'd be happy > > to take a look at them. They should definitely include tests and > > documentation, and a description of the design should probably be added to > > the wiki. > > Perhaps Joost can comment on how ready this is: > > https://code.launchpad.net/~joostvb/mailman/2.1-pgp-smime It's not yet ready for review. Currently, development is planned for the 2.1-branch only. Early 2009 the code is ready for review, see the roadmap in http://non-gnu.uvt.nl/mailman-pgp-smime/TODO.PGP-SMIME for details. Barry: thanks for offering to take a look, I'll get back to you later. Bye, Joost -- irc:joostvb@{OFTC,freenode} ? http://mdcc.cx/ ? http://ad1810.com/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 835 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From thomas at tmfconsulting.net Mon Sep 29 16:14:56 2008 From: thomas at tmfconsulting.net (Thomas M Foley) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 10:14:56 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Looking for Help Message-ID: <83EAD167-BFC0-4925-B1E3-A813996CFAEF@tmfconsulting.net> I have a client who is looking to move to an In-House mailing system. They are currently using a commercial web company called vertical response, http://www.verticalresponse.com. They would like some assistance in developing some back end tools and interface to do tacking on their mailings. If someone out there is interested in working with us on this project, please let me know. You can call my office or send me back an email. The client is ready to move forward and any help would be appreciated. I would prefer to go with Mailman on this project. I think it can handle what they want to do, but I just need help on the backend and interface. Thanks in advance. Thomas M Foley TMF Consulting LLC 212.473.2325 O thomas at tmfconsulting.net