From maickel.pandie at gmail.com  Tue Jun  3 11:20:38 2008
From: maickel.pandie at gmail.com (Maickel Pandie)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:20:38 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] How To change queue process method
Message-ID: <6a215fbe0806030220p274292b3l4eeeda88cefdeecc@mail.gmail.com>

I'm new in mailman

I had research about how fast MTA (postfix) can deliver a lot of email
from mailman.
The one that I want to change is queue process method from FIFO to
size based(sum of domain in the list x size of email),
I have a list that contain the sum of domain each mailing list.
I want Mailman prefer sending email that have less domain destination
and small size of email.

Can you tell me what file I have to edit so mailman can decide what
email is thrown to postfix first?

Sory my english is bad

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun  3 20:51:31 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:51:31 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] How To change queue process method
In-Reply-To: <6a215fbe0806030220p274292b3l4eeeda88cefdeecc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1830200806031151310781f991d12c@msapiro>

Maickel Pandie wrote:
>
>I had research about how fast MTA (postfix) can deliver a lot of email
>from mailman.
>The one that I want to change is queue process method from FIFO to
>size based(sum of domain in the list x size of email),
>I have a list that contain the sum of domain each mailing list.
>I want Mailman prefer sending email that have less domain destination
>and small size of email.
>
>Can you tell me what file I have to edit so mailman can decide what
>email is thrown to postfix first?


You would need to modify the Switchboard.files() method in module
Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py.

Think hard before you move away from FIFO queue processing. If your out
queue is not backlogged, it will essentially be processed FIFO in any
case because each time you look there will only be one or two entries
to process. If it is backlogged and you process in any but FIFO order,
you run the risk of leaving non-preferred entries unprocessed for very
long times.

Also, your specific strategy would penalize larger (perhaps more
popular) lists by delaying posts to those lists in favor of those to
smaller (perhaps obscure) lists. Is this really what you want to do?

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From iane at sussex.ac.uk  Wed Jun  4 12:34:40 2008
From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart)
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:34:40 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] How To change queue process method
In-Reply-To: <PC1830200806031151310781f991d12c@msapiro>
References: <PC1830200806031151310781f991d12c@msapiro>
Message-ID: <40A3F69CBE7F255A9F4E53F5@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>



--On 3 June 2008 11:51:31 -0700 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> Maickel Pandie wrote:
>>
>> I had research about how fast MTA (postfix) can deliver a lot of email
>> from mailman.
>> The one that I want to change is queue process method from FIFO to
>> size based(sum of domain in the list x size of email),
>> I have a list that contain the sum of domain each mailing list.
>> I want Mailman prefer sending email that have less domain destination
>> and small size of email.
>>
>> Can you tell me what file I have to edit so mailman can decide what
>> email is thrown to postfix first?
>
>
> You would need to modify the Switchboard.files() method in module
> Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py.
>
> Think hard before you move away from FIFO queue processing. If your out
> queue is not backlogged, it will essentially be processed FIFO in any
> case because each time you look there will only be one or two entries
> to process. If it is backlogged and you process in any but FIFO order,
> you run the risk of leaving non-preferred entries unprocessed for very
> long times.
>
> Also, your specific strategy would penalize larger (perhaps more
> popular) lists by delaying posts to those lists in favor of those to
> smaller (perhaps obscure) lists. Is this really what you want to do?

A better solution might be to configure Mailman to use more queue runners. 
We saw a massive performance increase when we did that, because a single 
large delivery would not hold up other quicker deliveries.

-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
x3148

From maickel.pandie at gmail.com  Fri Jun  6 10:23:57 2008
From: maickel.pandie at gmail.com (Maickel Pandie)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:23:57 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd:  How To change queue process method
In-Reply-To: <40A3F69CBE7F255A9F4E53F5@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
References: <PC1830200806031151310781f991d12c@msapiro>
	<40A3F69CBE7F255A9F4E53F5@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <6a215fbe0806060123i588a0956ld8a752e8b299beec@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Mark and Ian for your suggestion,
I want ask again,
1. Is queue runners like Incomingqueue runner so I have to make more
Incomingqueue runner?
2. How can I made more queue runners?
3. Can I make more queue pipe so incoming email is deliver to pipe
depend on their size and domain destination?
4 If I bombard my mailing list server using email stress test can I
make a lot of waiting process in queue?

Thanks

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ian Eiloart <iane at sussex.ac.uk>
Date: 2008/6/4
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] How To change queue process method
To: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>, Maickel Pandie
<maickel.pandie at gmail.com>, mailman-developers at python.org




--On 3 June 2008 11:51:31 -0700 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> Maickel Pandie wrote:
>>
>> I had research about how fast MTA (postfix) can deliver a lot of email
>> from mailman.
>> The one that I want to change is queue process method from FIFO to
>> size based(sum of domain in the list x size of email),
>> I have a list that contain the sum of domain each mailing list.
>> I want Mailman prefer sending email that have less domain destination
>> and small size of email.
>>
>> Can you tell me what file I have to edit so mailman can decide what
>> email is thrown to postfix first?
>
>
> You would need to modify the Switchboard.files() method in module
> Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py.
>
> Think hard before you move away from FIFO queue processing. If your out
> queue is not backlogged, it will essentially be processed FIFO in any
> case because each time you look there will only be one or two entries
> to process. If it is backlogged and you process in any but FIFO order,
> you run the risk of leaving non-preferred entries unprocessed for very
> long times.
>
> Also, your specific strategy would penalize larger (perhaps more
> popular) lists by delaying posts to those lists in favor of those to
> smaller (perhaps obscure) lists. Is this really what you want to do?

A better solution might be to configure Mailman to use more queue
runners. We saw a massive performance increase when we did that,
because a single large delivery would not hold up other quicker
deliveries.

--
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
x3148

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun  7 06:01:06 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:01:06 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd:  How To change queue process method
In-Reply-To: <6a215fbe0806060123i588a0956ld8a752e8b299beec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200806062101060015815fedd5@msapiro>

Maickel Pandie wrote:

>Thanks Mark and Ian for your suggestion,
>I want ask again,
>1. Is queue runners like Incomingqueue runner so I have to make more
>Incomingqueue runner?
>2. How can I made more queue runners?


For 1. and 2. read the section of Defaults.py under the heading

#####
# Qrunner defaults
#####

Since you started this thread by talking about optimizing delivery to
the outgoing MTA, I think you'd be most concerned with OutgoingRunner.


>3. Can I make more queue pipe so incoming email is deliver to pipe
>depend on their size and domain destination?


Incoming mail delivery is done by the MTA. Any splitting of incoming
mail beyond slicing IncomingRunner would need to be done by the MTA.


>4 If I bombard my mailing list server using email stress test can I
>make a lot of waiting process in queue?


Maybe, except the things that wait in the queues are messages. The
processes are the qrunners and their number is fixed..

You could also just stop Mailman, deliver a lot of mail and then start
Mailman.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun  7 23:46:50 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 14:46:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 2.1.11rc1 has been released
Message-ID: <484B01CA.5050908@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I am happy to announce the release of the first release candidate for
Mailman 2.1.11.

Mailman 2.1.11 is a cleanup of a few problems found since the release of
Mailman 2.1.10. It fixes the issue of shunted email subscribe requests
and a few minor issues. It updates the contrib/mmdsr script for some
2.1.10 and 2.1.11 log and error messages, and it adds a new cron to cull
and optionally archive old entries in the 'bad' and 'shunt' queues. See
the release notes at
<http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?group_id=103&release_id=605074>
for details.

Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and
e-newsletters. Mailman is used for all the python.org and
SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.

For more information, including download links, please see:

http://www.list.org
http://mailman.sf.net
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman

Note that since the 2.1.11rc1 tarball was prepared, a few issues
involving the Dutch, German, Korean, Russian, Spanish and traditional
Chinese translations have been corrected, so if you use any of these
languages, you probably will want to wait for the next candidate or
final release.

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFISwHKVVuXXpU7hpMRArmaAJ9c/7xc/jCcoqoEHQhPRKXZwpYtJgCaAwpQ
J4tf0KCCWNJGWr4CD+/+4yA=
=d8o8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From iane at sussex.ac.uk  Mon Jun  9 12:42:12 2008
From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 11:42:12 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd:  How To change queue process method
In-Reply-To: <6a215fbe0806060123i588a0956ld8a752e8b299beec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PC1830200806031151310781f991d12c@msapiro>
	<40A3F69CBE7F255A9F4E53F5@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
	<6a215fbe0806060123i588a0956ld8a752e8b299beec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F540E34CFAAD273F4F0023DF@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>



--On 6 June 2008 15:23:57 +0700 Maickel Pandie <maickel.pandie at gmail.com> 
wrote:

> Thanks Mark and Ian for your suggestion,
> I want ask again,
> 1. Is queue runners like Incomingqueue runner so I have to make more
> Incomingqueue runner?
yes
> 2. How can I made more queue runners?
For example, put this in Mailman/mm_cfg.py :

QRUNNERS = [
    ('ArchRunner',     4), # messages for the archiver
    ('BounceRunner',   4), # for processing the qfile/bounces directory
    ('CommandRunner',  4), # commands and bounces from the outside world
    ('IncomingRunner', 4), # posts from the outside world
    ('NewsRunner',     4), # outgoing messages to the nntpd
    ('OutgoingRunner', 4), # outgoing messages to the smtpd
    ('VirginRunner',   4), # internally crafted (virgin birth) messages
    ('RetryRunner',    4), # retry temporarily failed deliveries
    ]

the number must be a power of 2, so if you want to go higher, try 8 or 16. 
Perhaps it's only required for OutgoingRunner and RetryRunner.

The performance improvement that I saw after doing this was so huge that I 
can't believe it isn't standard. Essentially it means that one big delivery 
job doesn't block the rest of the lists.

> 3. Can I make more queue pipe so incoming email is deliver to pipe
> depend on their size and domain destination?

I don't know. It would depend on your MTA, and you haven't said what that 
is. If it isn't Exim, I can't help.

> 4 If I bombard my mailing list server using email stress test can I
> make a lot of waiting process in queue?

Probably not without queueing lots of mail to third party domains. You'd 
want to be very careful not to spam people.

> Thanks
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Ian Eiloart <iane at sussex.ac.uk>
> Date: 2008/6/4
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] How To change queue process method
> To: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>, Maickel Pandie
> <maickel.pandie at gmail.com>, mailman-developers at python.org
>
>
>
>
> --On 3 June 2008 11:51:31 -0700 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>
>> Maickel Pandie wrote:
>>>
>>> I had research about how fast MTA (postfix) can deliver a lot of email
>>> from mailman.
>>> The one that I want to change is queue process method from FIFO to
>>> size based(sum of domain in the list x size of email),
>>> I have a list that contain the sum of domain each mailing list.
>>> I want Mailman prefer sending email that have less domain destination
>>> and small size of email.
>>>
>>> Can you tell me what file I have to edit so mailman can decide what
>>> email is thrown to postfix first?
>>
>>
>> You would need to modify the Switchboard.files() method in module
>> Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py.
>>
>> Think hard before you move away from FIFO queue processing. If your out
>> queue is not backlogged, it will essentially be processed FIFO in any
>> case because each time you look there will only be one or two entries
>> to process. If it is backlogged and you process in any but FIFO order,
>> you run the risk of leaving non-preferred entries unprocessed for very
>> long times.
>>
>> Also, your specific strategy would penalize larger (perhaps more
>> popular) lists by delaying posts to those lists in favor of those to
>> smaller (perhaps obscure) lists. Is this really what you want to do?
>
> A better solution might be to configure Mailman to use more queue
> runners. We saw a massive performance increase when we did that,
> because a single large delivery would not hold up other quicker
> deliveries.
>
> --
> Ian Eiloart
> IT Services, University of Sussex
> x3148
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/iane%40sussex.a
> c.uk
>
> Security Policy:
> http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp



-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
x3148

From barry at python.org  Mon Jun  9 19:04:00 2008
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:04:00 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-checkins] Proposed merge of Small
	Fixes into Stable, maintained release series updated
In-Reply-To: <20080609160545.18137.78185.launchpad@canonical@gandwana.canonical.com>
References: <20080609160545.18137.78185.launchpad@canonical@gandwana.canonical.com>
Message-ID: <67A6E236-5F44-400A-8009-C3A97990463A@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jun 9, 2008, at 12:05 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> The proposal to merge Small Fixes into Stable, maintained release  
> series has been updated.
>
>    Status: Work in progress => Merged

Mark, I'm curious.  Are you looking for review of the merge proposals,  
or adding them for the record keeping?  I'm wondering because I'm  
happy to review any merge proposal you want (and would like to  
experiment with this feature).

- -Barry

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)

iQCVAwUBSE1igHEjvBPtnXfVAQL1NwP/S5VVvStK+SC34f+Khqec782Kav6u0Hnp
EtH/9XfgLxS/xfCIk5CsaSK+DvbXz3TJLHRZv3oQg7xAbI/rohWF5MuriANaDgYQ
PBEc8tBooYjWMZcyvIWPYqSA2hF6/blaRIyb1RUxXStIN67w8DDVyM3twAAxvf1a
ENfTaRVfDWA=
=rC84
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun  9 19:27:48 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 10:27:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-checkins] Proposed merge of Small
 Fixes into Stable, maintained release series updated
In-Reply-To: <67A6E236-5F44-400A-8009-C3A97990463A@python.org>
References: <20080609160545.18137.78185.launchpad@canonical@gandwana.canonical.com>
	<67A6E236-5F44-400A-8009-C3A97990463A@python.org>
Message-ID: <484D6814.8080804@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Barry Warsaw wrote:
| On Jun 9, 2008, at 12:05 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
|
|> The proposal to merge Small Fixes into Stable, maintained release
|> series has been updated.
|
|>    Status: Work in progress => Merged
|
| Mark, I'm curious.  Are you looking for review of the merge proposals,
| or adding them for the record keeping?  I'm wondering because I'm happy
| to review any merge proposal you want (and would like to experiment with
| this feature).

In the case of Andrew's Small Fixes branch, at least so far, I just want
to mark them as merged for record keeping. It seems that in order to
mark the branch as merged, there needs to be an open merge proposal
first, so that's what I've been doing.

In other cases I would be looking for review although I haven't really
given that much thought before now.

I guess one can tell that if I mark the proposal as merged within
minutes of proposing it, it was for the record only ;-)

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFITWgUVVuXXpU7hpMRAtH9AKCUtW9Xga8JHnvv76sB0oNhNFDKzACfR/4q
5hT4wfEg4ziT0oDDBBQ2Hlk=
=gfaB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From barry at python.org  Mon Jun  9 19:50:22 2008
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:50:22 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-checkins] Proposed merge of Small
	Fixes into Stable, maintained release series updated
In-Reply-To: <484D6814.8080804@msapiro.net>
References: <20080609160545.18137.78185.launchpad@canonical@gandwana.canonical.com>
	<67A6E236-5F44-400A-8009-C3A97990463A@python.org>
	<484D6814.8080804@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <DC3367A6-9123-49AB-A70C-0498739A931E@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jun 9, 2008, at 1:27 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> In the case of Andrew's Small Fixes branch, at least so far, I just  
> want
> to mark them as merged for record keeping. It seems that in order to
> mark the branch as merged, there needs to be an open merge proposal
> first, so that's what I've been doing.
>
> In other cases I would be looking for review although I haven't really
> given that much thought before now.
>
> I guess one can tell that if I mark the proposal as merged within
> minutes of proposing it, it was for the record only ;-)

That's what I thought. :)

Sounds good.  Eventually, I hope we get enough committers that we can  
do mutual reviews and I plan on asking for reviews of my own code as  
time goes on.  For now, our team is small, and I look at every  
revision that lands.  I hope you'll do the same for the code I'm  
committing!

- -Barry

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)

iQCVAwUBSE1tXnEjvBPtnXfVAQK0hQP+KpMjLxjaR+g0sslJ0wpHQyjCMR1flvMM
d5OvRuU35pqV3RGFVnCaCD7pZ4dG6SRo1yX0G8KtJW/OqE/KV1aPJkJwVkBI08bP
bhU2ArvY4GB19ivi9xEzq7X6tPbYehbdbGsPyXLuPOT/3M+X8AzlMVSk5RV8XdQu
GzW4UpfOk8I=
=9a/l
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From maickel.pandie at gmail.com  Tue Jun 10 04:16:01 2008
From: maickel.pandie at gmail.com (Maickel Pandie)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:16:01 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd: Fwd: How To change queue process method
In-Reply-To: <F540E34CFAAD273F4F0023DF@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
References: <PC1830200806031151310781f991d12c@msapiro>
	<40A3F69CBE7F255A9F4E53F5@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
	<6a215fbe0806060123i588a0956ld8a752e8b299beec@mail.gmail.com>
	<F540E34CFAAD273F4F0023DF@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <6a215fbe0806091916y60713709g81a536741b2a3276@mail.gmail.com>

My MTA is postfix

Mark Sapiro wrote: "You could also just stop Mailman, deliver a lot of
mail and then start
Mailman."
Thanks I will try that

Question again:
1. am I right that all of new email who comes to the server are queued
in incoming queue by incomingrunner and the step is like this?
"new email"----->Incoming queue----->Outgoing queue----> MTA queue
                   ^                            ^                            ^
          Incomingrunner        Outgoingrunner               ?

2. in what queue to most posibility a long email queue will happen if
I do what Mark Sapiro suggested?

3. can I maintain what email is thrown first between Incoming queue to
Outgoing queue?

4. what runner should I edit if I want to make number 3 happen?

5. am I right that switchboard.py is always use when there are email
moving from one queue to another queue to maintain FIFO in all of
queue in mailman so if I want to change the FIFO I just have to edit
switcboard.py?

Please tell me if I wrong and give your suggestion? Thanks

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ian Eiloart <iane at sussex.ac.uk>
Date: 2008/6/9
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd:  How To change queue process method
To: Maickel Pandie <maickel.pandie at gmail.com>, mailman-developers at python.org




--On 6 June 2008 15:23:57 +0700 Maickel Pandie <maickel.pandie at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Mark and Ian for your suggestion,
> I want ask again,
> 1. Is queue runners like Incomingqueue runner so I have to make more
> Incomingqueue runner?

yes
>
> 2. How can I made more queue runners?

For example, put this in Mailman/mm_cfg.py :

QRUNNERS = [
  ('ArchRunner',     4), # messages for the archiver
  ('BounceRunner',   4), # for processing the qfile/bounces directory
  ('CommandRunner',  4), # commands and bounces from the outside world
  ('IncomingRunner', 4), # posts from the outside world
  ('NewsRunner',     4), # outgoing messages to the nntpd
  ('OutgoingRunner', 4), # outgoing messages to the smtpd
  ('VirginRunner',   4), # internally crafted (virgin birth) messages
  ('RetryRunner',    4), # retry temporarily failed deliveries
  ]

the number must be a power of 2, so if you want to go higher, try 8 or
16. Perhaps it's only required for OutgoingRunner and RetryRunner.

The performance improvement that I saw after doing this was so huge
that I can't believe it isn't standard. Essentially it means that one
big delivery job doesn't block the rest of the lists.

> 3. Can I make more queue pipe so incoming email is deliver to pipe
> depend on their size and domain destination?

I don't know. It would depend on your MTA, and you haven't said what
that is. If it isn't Exim, I can't help.

> 4 If I bombard my mailing list server using email stress test can I
> make a lot of waiting process in queue?

Probably not without queueing lots of mail to third party domains.
You'd want to be very careful not to spam people.

> Thanks
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Ian Eiloart <iane at sussex.ac.uk>
> Date: 2008/6/4
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] How To change queue process method
> To: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>, Maickel Pandie
> <maickel.pandie at gmail.com>, mailman-developers at python.org
>
>
>
>
> --On 3 June 2008 11:51:31 -0700 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
>
>> Maickel Pandie wrote:
>>>
>>> I had research about how fast MTA (postfix) can deliver a lot of email
>>> from mailman.
>>> The one that I want to change is queue process method from FIFO to
>>> size based(sum of domain in the list x size of email),
>>> I have a list that contain the sum of domain each mailing list.
>>> I want Mailman prefer sending email that have less domain destination
>>> and small size of email.
>>>
>>> Can you tell me what file I have to edit so mailman can decide what
>>> email is thrown to postfix first?
>>
>>
>> You would need to modify the Switchboard.files() method in module
>> Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py.
>>
>> Think hard before you move away from FIFO queue processing. If your out
>> queue is not backlogged, it will essentially be processed FIFO in any
>> case because each time you look there will only be one or two entries
>> to process. If it is backlogged and you process in any but FIFO order,
>> you run the risk of leaving non-preferred entries unprocessed for very
>> long times.
>>
>> Also, your specific strategy would penalize larger (perhaps more
>> popular) lists by delaying posts to those lists in favor of those to
>> smaller (perhaps obscure) lists. Is this really what you want to do?
>
> A better solution might be to configure Mailman to use more queue
> runners. We saw a massive performance increase when we did that,
> because a single large delivery would not hold up other quicker
> deliveries.
>
> --
> Ian Eiloart
> IT Services, University of Sussex
> x3148
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/iane%40sussex.a
> c.uk
>
> Security Policy:
> http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp



--
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
x3148

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun 10 06:52:25 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 21:52:25 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd: Fwd: How To change queue process
	method
In-Reply-To: <6a215fbe0806091916y60713709g81a536741b2a3276@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC187020080609215225079670c74ef5@msapiro>

Maickel Pandie wrote:

>My MTA is postfix
>
>Mark Sapiro wrote: "You could also just stop Mailman, deliver a lot of
>mail and then start
>Mailman."
>Thanks I will try that


Also, in the Mailman distribution there is tests/fblast.py which
delivers lots of mail to Mailman.


>Question again:
>1. am I right that all of new email who comes to the server are queued
>in incoming queue by incomingrunner and the step is like this?
>"new email"----->Incoming queue----->Outgoing queue----> MTA queue
>                   ^                            ^                            ^
>          Incomingrunner        Outgoingrunner               ?


No. New mail is piped by the MTA to the mail/mailman wrapper which
invokes one of the scripts in the scripts directory to put the message
in the appropriate queue. Mail to the list posting address invokes the
scripts/post script which queues the mail in the 'in' queue.

IncomingRunner processes the 'in' queue and in the normal case will
queue a message to be archived in the 'archive' queue and a message to
be delivered in the 'out' queue. ArchRunner processes the 'archive'
queue and adds messages to the archive. OutgoingRunner processes the
'out' queue and delivers messages via SMTP to the MTA.


>2. in what queue to most posibility a long email queue will happen if
>I do what Mark Sapiro suggested?


Messages will be queued in the 'in' queue and will remain there until
you start IncomingRunner.


>3. can I maintain what email is thrown first between Incoming queue to
>Outgoing queue?



It is strictly FIFO.


>4. what runner should I edit if I want to make number 3 happen?


As mentioned before in this thread
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2008-June/020207.html>
you would not edit a qrunner. You would edit the Switchboard.files()
method in module Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py to return the files in
the order you want.


>5. am I right that switchboard.py is always use when there are email
>moving from one queue to another queue to maintain FIFO in all of
>queue in mailman so if I want to change the FIFO I just have to edit
>switcboard.py?


Yes. The Switchboard class does all queueing and dequeueing and it is
the files() method which returns a list of files in a queue in the
order that they will be processed.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From amk at amk.ca  Tue Jun 10 14:19:54 2008
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:19:54 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Proposed merges
In-Reply-To: <67A6E236-5F44-400A-8009-C3A97990463A@python.org>
References: <67A6E236-5F44-400A-8009-C3A97990463A@python.org>
Message-ID: <20080610121954.GA7494@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>

On Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 01:04:00PM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> Mark, I'm curious.  Are you looking for review of the merge proposals,  
> or adding them for the record keeping?  I'm wondering because I'm  
> happy to review any merge proposal you want (and would like to  
> experiment with this feature).

To experiment with the feature, I've just submitted a merge request
for the bounce-analysis branch (for MM2.2):

https://code.launchpad.net/~amk/mailman/bounce-analysis

Feel free to reject it (or whatever you do to merge proposals) as part
of your experimenting.  My feelings won't be hurt.

--amk


From maickel.pandie at gmail.com  Wed Jun 11 02:01:44 2008
From: maickel.pandie at gmail.com (Maickel Pandie)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 07:01:44 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd: Fwd: Fwd: How To change queue process
	method
In-Reply-To: <PC187020080609215225079670c74ef5@msapiro>
References: <6a215fbe0806091916y60713709g81a536741b2a3276@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC187020080609215225079670c74ef5@msapiro>
Message-ID: <6a215fbe0806101701u731bfde9rd4e2b1b829beeed9@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, many thanks
I will try to edit switcboard.py first. If there any result I have, I
will post the result...
and if I get any problem I will ask for help again :)
Thanks for your guidance

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
Date: 2008/6/10
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd: Fwd: How To change queue process method
To: Maickel Pandie <maickel.pandie at gmail.com>, mailman-developers at python.org


Maickel Pandie wrote:

>My MTA is postfix
>
>Mark Sapiro wrote: "You could also just stop Mailman, deliver a lot of
>mail and then start
>Mailman."
>Thanks I will try that


Also, in the Mailman distribution there is tests/fblast.py which
delivers lots of mail to Mailman.


>Question again:
>1. am I right that all of new email who comes to the server are queued
>in incoming queue by incomingrunner and the step is like this?
>"new email"----->Incoming queue----->Outgoing queue----> MTA queue
>                   ^                            ^                            ^
>          Incomingrunner        Outgoingrunner               ?


No. New mail is piped by the MTA to the mail/mailman wrapper which
invokes one of the scripts in the scripts directory to put the message
in the appropriate queue. Mail to the list posting address invokes the
scripts/post script which queues the mail in the 'in' queue.

IncomingRunner processes the 'in' queue and in the normal case will
queue a message to be archived in the 'archive' queue and a message to
be delivered in the 'out' queue. ArchRunner processes the 'archive'
queue and adds messages to the archive. OutgoingRunner processes the
'out' queue and delivers messages via SMTP to the MTA.


>2. in what queue to most posibility a long email queue will happen if
>I do what Mark Sapiro suggested?


Messages will be queued in the 'in' queue and will remain there until
you start IncomingRunner.


>3. can I maintain what email is thrown first between Incoming queue to
>Outgoing queue?



It is strictly FIFO.


>4. what runner should I edit if I want to make number 3 happen?


As mentioned before in this thread
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2008-June/020207.html>
you would not edit a qrunner. You would edit the Switchboard.files()
method in module Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py to return the files in
the order you want.


>5. am I right that switchboard.py is always use when there are email
>moving from one queue to another queue to maintain FIFO in all of
>queue in mailman so if I want to change the FIFO I just have to edit
>switcboard.py?


Yes. The Switchboard class does all queueing and dequeueing and it is
the files() method which returns a list of files in a queue in the
order that they will be processed.

--
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From fil at rezo.net  Sun Jun 15 00:29:22 2008
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 00:29:22 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] my branch of Cgi/admin.py is now uptodate with
	2.1.11rc1
Message-ID: <bfc33ad70806141529u30113e6fx7e97ceff35b1cabe@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

as some of you know (Barry at least) I have a modified version of
Cgi/admin.py which allows me to use the web interface on a 200 000
members list. The standard admin.py break way below this point.  I
hadn't upgraded it for ages, but here is now a version that integrates
all changes (security fixes) that have been made on the official
branch.

I've tried to use bzr but no luck, versions seems incompatible between
the debian one (0.11) and the repo (0.15) , so I'm still doing it the
old way:
http://trac.rezo.net/trac/rezo/browser/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py

revision 93 is the integration of the security patches
revision 15 is my patch

I also have this idea that the Membership API lacks a search method;
it ain't good to query all addresses from the database and regexp them
one by one when we could ask the database to extract only those that
match. This is why I also have a modified MemberAdaptor.py

-- Fil

From fil at rezo.net  Sun Jun 15 00:59:18 2008
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 00:59:18 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] my branch of Cgi/admin.py is now uptodate
	with 2.1.11rc1
In-Reply-To: <bfc33ad70806141529u30113e6fx7e97ceff35b1cabe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bfc33ad70806141529u30113e6fx7e97ceff35b1cabe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bfc33ad70806141559x75347536h4676c04d98af2c96@mail.gmail.com>

> as some of you know (Barry at least) I have a modified version of
> Cgi/admin.py which allows me to use the web interface on a 200 000
> members list. The standard admin.py break way below this point.  I

And a reference to the "documentation":
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2005-November/018282.html

-- Fil

From fil at rezo.net  Sun Jun 15 01:56:54 2008
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 01:56:54 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce problem w/ 2.1.11rc1 and GMail
Message-ID: <bfc33ad70806141656v7470a9bas7c895e1539f4cf0f@mail.gmail.com>

Apparently I've got a problem with this release:  if I believe the
logs, the bounce processor seems unable to recognize bounces messages
coming from googlemail.com ;  logs/bounce is full of lines like:
Jun 15 01:52:46 2008 (3303) bounce message w/no discernable addresses:
<000e0cd286e21d95f3044fa917b5 at googlemail.com>

-- Fil

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jun 15 02:15:04 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 17:15:04 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce problem w/ 2.1.11rc1 and GMail
In-Reply-To: <bfc33ad70806141656v7470a9bas7c895e1539f4cf0f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200806141715040937f638d26d@msapiro>

Fil wrote:

>Apparently I've got a problem with this release:  if I believe the
>logs, the bounce processor seems unable to recognize bounces messages
>coming from googlemail.com ;  logs/bounce is full of lines like:
>Jun 15 01:52:46 2008 (3303) bounce message w/no discernable addresses:
><000e0cd286e21d95f3044fa917b5 at googlemail.com>


Bounce recognition in 2.1.11rc1 is the same as in all the 2.1.10 beta,
candidate and final releases.

It is possible that these are spam messages with a googlemail.com
message-id being sent directly to a list-bounces addresses. If
bounce_unrecognized_goes_to_list_owner is On, the list owner will get
a copy of the bounce and you can see if they are real bounces or spam.

If it is a real bounce, send it to me, and I'll update the recognizers.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From fil at rezo.net  Sun Jun 15 02:57:33 2008
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 02:57:33 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce problem w/ 2.1.11rc1 and GMail
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200806141715040937f638d26d@msapiro>
References: <bfc33ad70806141656v7470a9bas7c895e1539f4cf0f@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1870200806141715040937f638d26d@msapiro>
Message-ID: <bfc33ad70806141757s7a944dfxb76baaec355aea29@mail.gmail.com>

> Bounce recognition in 2.1.11rc1 is the same as in all the 2.1.10 beta,
> candidate and final releases.

Hi Mark,

in fact I was living with 2.1.6b (ouch!) up till today, and I had
disabled the bounce processors; I just upgraded tonight and am
checking logs and stuff...


> If it is a real bounce, send it to me, and I'll update the recognizers.

Seem real. I'm sending them to you.

Also, reading the code, I understand that the
.getDeliveryStatusChangeTime method is not used anywhere (except in
bin/export.py and Mailman/Commands/cmd_set.py); wouldn't it be
sensible to remove it altogether?

-- Fil

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jun 15 06:53:26 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 21:53:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce problem w/ 2.1.11rc1 and GMail
In-Reply-To: <bfc33ad70806141757s7a944dfxb76baaec355aea29@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008061421532600318ae0ed79@msapiro>

Fil wrote:
>
>in fact I was living with 2.1.6b (ouch!) up till today, and I had
>disabled the bounce processors; I just upgraded tonight and am
>checking logs and stuff...
>
>
>> If it is a real bounce, send it to me, and I'll update the recognizers.
>
>Seem real. I'm sending them to you.


Thanks. I have updated bzr at rev 1098 on the 2.1 branch. This patch to
SimpleWarning.py will recognize these delay warnings.

=== modified file 'Mailman/Bouncers/SimpleWarning.py'
--- Mailman/Bouncers/SimpleWarning.py   2007-11-12 05:40:15 +0000
+++ Mailman/Bouncers/SimpleWarning.py   2008-06-15 04:04:44 +0000
@@ -1,4 +1,4 @@
-# Copyright (C) 2001-2007 by the Free Software Foundation, Inc.
+# Copyright (C) 2001-2008 by the Free Software Foundation, Inc.
 #
 # This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
 # modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
@@ -49,6 +49,10 @@
     (_c('Delivery attempts will continue to be made'),
      _c('.+'),
      _c('(?P<addr>.+)')),
+    # Googlemail
+    (_c('THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY'),
+     _c('Message will be retried'),
+     _c(r'\s*(?P<addr>\S+@\S+)\s*')),
     # Next one goes here...
     ]



>Also, reading the code, I understand that the
>.getDeliveryStatusChangeTime method is not used anywhere (except in
>bin/export.py and Mailman/Commands/cmd_set.py); wouldn't it be
>sensible to remove it altogether?


The time is set by the setDeliveryStatus method. Since the time is
there, it seems reasonable to have a method to get it, even if it
isn't widely used.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From fil at rezo.net  Sun Jun 15 10:09:10 2008
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:09:10 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce problem w/ 2.1.11rc1 and GMail
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008061421532600318ae0ed79@msapiro>
References: <bfc33ad70806141757s7a944dfxb76baaec355aea29@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC18702008061421532600318ae0ed79@msapiro>
Message-ID: <bfc33ad70806150109k42771279w47768f4f10c9ad11@mail.gmail.com>

> Thanks. I have updated bzr at rev 1098 on the 2.1 branch. This patch to
> SimpleWarning.py will recognize these delay warnings.

Thanks a lot Mark.

I found another minor issue today: my name contains a "?", and when I
subscribe it is transformed into &#232; in the database. Why not. But
then it is presented to me everywhere on the web UI as &amp;#232;
which displays the code and not the character. I can live with that
but it's a bit ugly :-)

-- Fil

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 16 01:00:44 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 16:00:44 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Transformation of non-ascii characters -
	was: bounce problem w/ 2.1.11rc1 and GMail
In-Reply-To: <bfc33ad70806150109k42771279w47768f4f10c9ad11@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008061516004406878c12dddb@msapiro>

Fil wrote:
>
>I found another minor issue today: my name contains a "=E8", and when I
>subscribe it is transformed into &#232; in the database.


There may be an issue with your MemberAdaptor. With
OldStyleMemberships.py, accented characters are accepted and stored as
themselves in the usernames dictionary.


>Why not. But
>then it is presented to me everywhere on the web UI as &amp;#232;
>which displays the code and not the character. I can live with that
>but it's a bit ugly :-)


They are only displayed as &#ddd; in the web interface if the language
of the page is English. If the list's preferred language is e.g.,
French, they will display correctly in the admin interface, and if the
user's preferred language is e.g., French, they will display correctly
on the user's options page.

Granted, the conversion of &#232; to &amp;#232; is ugly, but it would
be hard to change. The conversion of \xe8 to &#232; is done by
Utils.uncanonstr() which will convert any character that can't be
encoded in the relevant character set (us-ascii for English) to the
&#ddd; form. Then, in order to protect against XSS attacks, values to
be displayed are passed through cgi.escape() which converts the & to
&amp;.

The real fix might be for cgi.escape() to be smarter :-)

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From fil at rezo.net  Mon Jun 16 09:21:32 2008
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:21:32 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Transformation of non-ascii characters -
	was: bounce problem w/ 2.1.11rc1 and GMail
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008061516004406878c12dddb@msapiro>
References: <bfc33ad70806150109k42771279w47768f4f10c9ad11@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC18702008061516004406878c12dddb@msapiro>
Message-ID: <bfc33ad70806160021n3188e489p5b3f2551605c1c1f@mail.gmail.com>

> There may be an issue with your MemberAdaptor. With
> OldStyleMemberships.py, accented characters are accepted and stored as
> themselves in the usernames dictionary.

Yes you are correct Mark, this escaping is done by MysqlMemberships.py

    def escape(self, value):
        # transforms accents into html entities (&#233;)
        # TODO: find out which language is current (here: uses iso-8859-1)
        value = Utils.uncanonstr(value)
        # addslashes before " and '
        return MySQLdb.escape_string(value)

the difficulty is that MySQLdb.escape_string crashes if given non-ascii text.

So I'm modifying MysqlMemberships.py (rev. 94) so that we canonstr()
back in getMemberName().
However it's a not ideal; I don't like that idea very much as it means
that inside the db it is stored as &#232;. Should probably be utf-8.

-- Fil

From fil at rezo.net  Mon Jun 16 10:01:29 2008
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:01:29 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce info not updating in MM 2.1.11rc1 +
	patch
Message-ID: <bfc33ad70806160101h6649534ej33ab1c399839b18e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

(always with MysqlMemberships.py)
I noticed that my bounce info stays in the database at level 1, even
when the logs say "current bounce score: 2.0"

In Mailman/Bouncer.py I think that two self.setBounceInfo(member,
info) are missing:

--- Mailman/Bouncer.save.py     2008-06-16 10:00:17.000000000 +0200
+++ Mailman/Bouncer.py  2008-06-16 10:00:43.000000000 +0200
@@ -137,6 +137,7 @@ class Bouncer:
             if lastbounce + self.bounce_info_stale_after < now:
                 # Information is stale, so simply reset it
                 info.reset(weight, day, self.bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings)
+                self.setBounceInfo(member, info)
                 syslog('bounce', '%s: %s has stale bounce info, resetting',
                        self.internal_name(), member)
             else:
@@ -144,6 +145,7 @@ class Bouncer:
                 # score and take any necessary action.
                 info.score += weight
                 info.date = day
+                self.setBounceInfo(member, info)
                 syslog('bounce', '%s: %s current bounce score: %s',
                        self.internal_name(), member, info.score)
             # Continue to the check phase below

-- Fil

From maickel.pandie at gmail.com  Mon Jun 16 09:25:21 2008
From: maickel.pandie at gmail.com (Maickel Pandie)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:25:21 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd: Fwd: How To change queue process
	method
In-Reply-To: <6a215fbe0806101701u731bfde9rd4e2b1b829beeed9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a215fbe0806091916y60713709g81a536741b2a3276@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC187020080609215225079670c74ef5@msapiro>
	<6a215fbe0806101701u731bfde9rd4e2b1b829beeed9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a215fbe0806160025k2d9eaa55k5deca40c41644091@mail.gmail.com>

Hi...

I have some problem here and I didn't know how to solve it.
I sent 1 message to milis_01 at milis.com (listname) and I record what
Switchboard.files() return to Runner.py:

1213621876.0387881+53028ae65697f5b1c06e9cf0f3b04ae1bb2ecfb1
1213621876.0387881+ad9a762eff62186e94d26fda95865243b6dc4069
1213621876.0387881+e7efb136c33f77e0674e03512860aadb23a2d605

>From Switchboard.enqueue() and Switchboard.files() I knew that
1213621876.0387881 is the rcvtime

What I asking are:

1. Why the digest (53028ae65697f5b1c06e9cf0f3b04ae1bb2ecfb1,
ad9a762eff62186e94d26fda95865243b6dc4069,
e7efb136c33f77e0674e03512860aadb23a2d605) are changing for same
message?

2. In Switchboard.files() Can I get listname from the digest/filebase? How?

2008/6/11 Maickel Pandie <maickel.pandie at gmail.com>:
> Ok, many thanks
> I will try to edit switcboard.py first. If there any result I have, I
> will post the result...
> and if I get any problem I will ask for help again :)
> Thanks for your guidance
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
> Date: 2008/6/10
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd: Fwd: How To change queue process method
> To: Maickel Pandie <maickel.pandie at gmail.com>, mailman-developers at python.org
>
>
> Maickel Pandie wrote:
>
>>My MTA is postfix
>>
>>Mark Sapiro wrote: "You could also just stop Mailman, deliver a lot of
>>mail and then start
>>Mailman."
>>Thanks I will try that
>
>
> Also, in the Mailman distribution there is tests/fblast.py which
> delivers lots of mail to Mailman.
>
>
>>Question again:
>>1. am I right that all of new email who comes to the server are queued
>>in incoming queue by incomingrunner and the step is like this?
>>"new email"----->Incoming queue----->Outgoing queue----> MTA queue
>>                   ^                            ^                            ^
>>          Incomingrunner        Outgoingrunner               ?
>
>
> No. New mail is piped by the MTA to the mail/mailman wrapper which
> invokes one of the scripts in the scripts directory to put the message
> in the appropriate queue. Mail to the list posting address invokes the
> scripts/post script which queues the mail in the 'in' queue.
>
> IncomingRunner processes the 'in' queue and in the normal case will
> queue a message to be archived in the 'archive' queue and a message to
> be delivered in the 'out' queue. ArchRunner processes the 'archive'
> queue and adds messages to the archive. OutgoingRunner processes the
> 'out' queue and delivers messages via SMTP to the MTA.
>
>
>>2. in what queue to most posibility a long email queue will happen if
>>I do what Mark Sapiro suggested?
>
>
> Messages will be queued in the 'in' queue and will remain there until
> you start IncomingRunner.
>
>
>>3. can I maintain what email is thrown first between Incoming queue to
>>Outgoing queue?
>
>
>
> It is strictly FIFO.
>
>
>>4. what runner should I edit if I want to make number 3 happen?
>
>
> As mentioned before in this thread
> <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2008-June/020207.html>
> you would not edit a qrunner. You would edit the Switchboard.files()
> method in module Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py to return the files in
> the order you want.
>
>
>>5. am I right that switchboard.py is always use when there are email
>>moving from one queue to another queue to maintain FIFO in all of
>>queue in mailman so if I want to change the FIFO I just have to edit
>>switcboard.py?
>
>
> Yes. The Switchboard class does all queueing and dequeueing and it is
> the files() method which returns a list of files in a queue in the
> order that they will be processed.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>

From barry at list.org  Mon Jun 16 17:54:05 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:54:05 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd: Fwd: How To change queue process
	method
In-Reply-To: <6a215fbe0806160025k2d9eaa55k5deca40c41644091@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a215fbe0806091916y60713709g81a536741b2a3276@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC187020080609215225079670c74ef5@msapiro>
	<6a215fbe0806101701u731bfde9rd4e2b1b829beeed9@mail.gmail.com>
	<6a215fbe0806160025k2d9eaa55k5deca40c41644091@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A6B97B5C-6C31-4137-803E-9D65A02EE958@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jun 16, 2008, at 3:25 AM, Maickel Pandie wrote:

> I have some problem here and I didn't know how to solve it.
> I sent 1 message to milis_01 at milis.com (listname) and I record what
> Switchboard.files() return to Runner.py:
>
> 1213621876.0387881+53028ae65697f5b1c06e9cf0f3b04ae1bb2ecfb1
> 1213621876.0387881+ad9a762eff62186e94d26fda95865243b6dc4069
> 1213621876.0387881+e7efb136c33f77e0674e03512860aadb23a2d605
>
>> From Switchboard.enqueue() and Switchboard.files() I knew that
> 1213621876.0387881 is the rcvtime
>
> What I asking are:
>
> 1. Why the digest (53028ae65697f5b1c06e9cf0f3b04ae1bb2ecfb1,
> ad9a762eff62186e94d26fda95865243b6dc4069,
> e7efb136c33f77e0674e03512860aadb23a2d605) are changing for same
> message?

Because the hash is calculated from the entire contents of the file,  
which includes the message's metadata dictionary.  That will change  
each time the message is re-queued.

> 2. In Switchboard.files() Can I get listname from the digest/ 
> filebase? How?

Nope.  That information is available in the metadata, but you have to  
dequeue the file in order to read it.

Cheers,
- -Barry

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)

iEYEARECAAYFAkhWjJ4ACgkQ2YZpQepbvXEJEwCdFw6o4MhGsheX+Mu8Pn11GW4N
vFMAnRARv78M+7YpwVxNJCoqIOoBt8/o
=9HdD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From thijs at debian.org  Mon Jun 16 17:55:26 2008
From: thijs at debian.org (Thijs Kinkhorst)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:55:26 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 2.1.11rc1 has been released
In-Reply-To: <484B01CA.5050908@msapiro.net>
References: <484B01CA.5050908@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <200806161755.28818.thijs@debian.org>

Hi Mark,

On Saturday 7 June 2008 23:46, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Note that since the 2.1.11rc1 tarball was prepared, a few issues
> involving the Dutch, German, Korean, Russian, Spanish and traditional
> Chinese translations have been corrected, so if you use any of these
> languages, you probably will want to wait for the next candidate or
> final release.

Do you have an approximate/rough timeline for the next candidate and final 
release? We're approaching a freeze stage in Debian so it would be useful for 
us to decide what to include and what not.


thanks,
Thijs
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 481 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20080616/d39e675e/attachment.pgp>

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun 17 02:48:23 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:48:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 2.1.11rc1 has been released
In-Reply-To: <200806161755.28818.thijs@debian.org>
Message-ID: <PC1870200806161748230843a8cf7d22@msapiro>

Thijs Kinkhorst wrote:
>
>Do you have an approximate/rough timeline for the next candidate and final
>release? We're approaching a freeze stage in Debian so it would be useful for
>us to decide what to include and what not.


My target is June 23 for the next release which I expect will be the
final unless something significant surfaces before then.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From fil at rezo.net  Tue Jun 17 08:59:46 2008
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:59:46 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce info not updating in MM 2.1.11rc1 +
	patch
In-Reply-To: <bfc33ad70806160101h6649534ej33ab1c399839b18e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bfc33ad70806160101h6649534ej33ab1c399839b18e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bfc33ad70806162359p13c66b72x37679621dcaed3eb@mail.gmail.com>

> (always with MysqlMemberships.py)
> I noticed that my bounce info stays in the database at level 1, even
> when the logs say "current bounce score: 2.0"
>
> In Mailman/Bouncer.py I think that two self.setBounceInfo(member,
> info) are missing:
>
> --- Mailman/Bouncer.save.py     2008-06-16 10:00:17.000000000 +0200
> +++ Mailman/Bouncer.py  2008-06-16 10:00:43.000000000 +0200
> @@ -137,6 +137,7 @@ class Bouncer:
>             if lastbounce + self.bounce_info_stale_after < now:
>                 # Information is stale, so simply reset it
>                 info.reset(weight, day, self.bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings)
> +                self.setBounceInfo(member, info)
>                 syslog('bounce', '%s: %s has stale bounce info, resetting',
>                        self.internal_name(), member)
>             else:
> @@ -144,6 +145,7 @@ class Bouncer:
>                 # score and take any necessary action.
>                 info.score += weight
>                 info.date = day
> +                self.setBounceInfo(member, info)
>                 syslog('bounce', '%s: %s current bounce score: %s',
>                        self.internal_name(), member, info.score)
>             # Continue to the check phase below

Hello,

After another day has passed, I can confirm that this patch allows
MysqlMemberships.py to be notified of the bounce scores.

-- Fil

From thijs at debian.org  Tue Jun 17 11:24:57 2008
From: thijs at debian.org (Thijs Kinkhorst)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:24:57 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 2.1.11rc1 has been released
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200806161748230843a8cf7d22@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200806161748230843a8cf7d22@msapiro>
Message-ID: <ba5ec250ab13cdf05b9994be9f81a327.squirrel@wm.kinkhorst.nl>

On Tue, June 17, 2008 02:48, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> Do you have an approximate/rough timeline for the next candidate and
>> final release? We're approaching a freeze stage in Debian so it would be
>> useful for us to decide what to include and what not.
>
>
> My target is June 23 for the next release which I expect will be the
> final unless something significant surfaces before then.

Excellent, thanks!


Thijs


From barry at list.org  Tue Jun 17 14:47:40 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:47:40 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce info not updating in MM 2.1.11rc1 +
	patch
In-Reply-To: <bfc33ad70806160101h6649534ej33ab1c399839b18e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bfc33ad70806160101h6649534ej33ab1c399839b18e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BC56C4F2-7791-4781-9C12-F0635F42A055@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jun 16, 2008, at 4:01 AM, Fil wrote:

> (always with MysqlMemberships.py)
> I noticed that my bounce info stays in the database at level 1, even
> when the logs say "current bounce score: 2.0"
>
> In Mailman/Bouncer.py I think that two self.setBounceInfo(member,
> info) are missing:
>
> --- Mailman/Bouncer.save.py     2008-06-16 10:00:17.000000000 +0200
> +++ Mailman/Bouncer.py  2008-06-16 10:00:43.000000000 +0200
> @@ -137,6 +137,7 @@ class Bouncer:
>             if lastbounce + self.bounce_info_stale_after < now:
>                 # Information is stale, so simply reset it
>                 info.reset(weight, day,  
> self.bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings)
> +                self.setBounceInfo(member, info)
>                 syslog('bounce', '%s: %s has stale bounce info,  
> resetting',
>                        self.internal_name(), member)
>             else:
> @@ -144,6 +145,7 @@ class Bouncer:
>                 # score and take any necessary action.
>                 info.score += weight
>                 info.date = day
> +                self.setBounceInfo(member, info)
>                 syslog('bounce', '%s: %s current bounce score: %s',
>                        self.internal_name(), member, info.score)
>             # Continue to the check phase below

This makes some sense.  I don't know anything about the  
MysqlMembership.py adapter, but unlike the pickle-based standard  
adapter, it probably needs this call to mark the object as modified so  
that it will be stored in the db on the next save.  The standard  
adapter doesn't need this, because it's just going to pickle whatever  
the current state is.

The patch is a bit icky, but probably useful and I don't think it can  
hurt the standard adapter.

- -Barry

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)

iEYEARECAAYFAkhXsmwACgkQ2YZpQepbvXE9RQCgnOJ4F5NEfXDA9oPoxhXMK+U5
7uUAnREdrThi0xFV3uFCx27PoiBv6Bvt
=w2D7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun 17 16:48:12 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 07:48:12 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce info not updating in MM 2.1.11rc1
 +	patch
In-Reply-To: <BC56C4F2-7791-4781-9C12-F0635F42A055@list.org>
References: <bfc33ad70806160101h6649534ej33ab1c399839b18e@mail.gmail.com>
	<BC56C4F2-7791-4781-9C12-F0635F42A055@list.org>
Message-ID: <4857CEAC.2030006@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Barry Warsaw wrote:
| On Jun 16, 2008, at 4:01 AM, Fil wrote:
|
|> (always with MysqlMemberships.py)
|> I noticed that my bounce info stays in the database at level 1, even
|> when the logs say "current bounce score: 2.0"
|
|> In Mailman/Bouncer.py I think that two self.setBounceInfo(member,
|> info) are missing:
|
|> --- Mailman/Bouncer.save.py     2008-06-16 10:00:17.000000000 +0200
|> +++ Mailman/Bouncer.py  2008-06-16 10:00:43.000000000 +0200
|> @@ -137,6 +137,7 @@ class Bouncer:
|>             if lastbounce + self.bounce_info_stale_after < now:
|>                 # Information is stale, so simply reset it
|>                 info.reset(weight, day,
|> self.bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings)
|> +                self.setBounceInfo(member, info)
|>                 syslog('bounce', '%s: %s has stale bounce info,
|> resetting',
|>                        self.internal_name(), member)
|>             else:
|> @@ -144,6 +145,7 @@ class Bouncer:
|>                 # score and take any necessary action.
|>                 info.score += weight
|>                 info.date = day
|> +                self.setBounceInfo(member, info)
|>                 syslog('bounce', '%s: %s current bounce score: %s',
|>                        self.internal_name(), member, info.score)
|>             # Continue to the check phase below
|
| This makes some sense.  I don't know anything about the
| MysqlMembership.py adapter, but unlike the pickle-based standard
| adapter, it probably needs this call to mark the object as modified so
| that it will be stored in the db on the next save.  The standard adapter
| doesn't need this, because it's just going to pickle whatever the
| current state is.
|
| The patch is a bit icky, but probably useful and I don't think it can
| hurt the standard adapter.


This was discussed at length in October, 1985 in the thread that begins
at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2005-October/018255.html>.

In particular, see my post at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2005-October/018261.html>
for an alternate patch which I thought was more complete. As I note in
that post, I was new to Mailman at that time and was reluctant to commit
that patch without additional input. In fact, I think I only acquired
commit privileges during the time of that thread.

In any case, I'll revisit it now for inclusion in 2.1.11.

/Mark

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFIV86sVVuXXpU7hpMRAnKCAKCkih1PjK4zET8zxYVSTd3PLyb/YQCgmAsj
yooXIoWOtwqsiJ6FDbf5IPA=
=Bnrm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From barry at list.org  Tue Jun 17 17:07:51 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:07:51 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce info not updating in MM 2.1.11rc1
	+	patch
In-Reply-To: <4857CEAC.2030006@msapiro.net>
References: <bfc33ad70806160101h6649534ej33ab1c399839b18e@mail.gmail.com>
	<BC56C4F2-7791-4781-9C12-F0635F42A055@list.org>
	<4857CEAC.2030006@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <FBED470E-320E-4E10-8140-DA119D38B395@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jun 17, 2008, at 10:48 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> This was discussed at length in October, 1985 in the thread that  
> begins
> at
> <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2005-October/018255.html 
> >.

Wow, it's shocking to realize how long I've been hacking on Mailman  
then! :)

> In particular, see my post at
> <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2005-October/018261.html 
> >
> for an alternate patch which I thought was more complete. As I note in
> that post, I was new to Mailman at that time and was reluctant to  
> commit
> that patch without additional input. In fact, I think I only acquired
> commit privileges during the time of that thread.
>
> In any case, I'll revisit it now for inclusion in 2.1.11.

Thanks Mark.
- -Barry

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)

iEYEARECAAYFAkhX00cACgkQ2YZpQepbvXE4bwCaAo6pZs1+ruYH6uo66hKnw4oT
C2AAn2uLa9VcG76EkFZs28wtuChvWI3Z
=jUrx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun 17 18:06:53 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:06:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce info not updating in MM 2.1.11rc1
 +	patch
In-Reply-To: <FBED470E-320E-4E10-8140-DA119D38B395@list.org>
References: <bfc33ad70806160101h6649534ej33ab1c399839b18e@mail.gmail.com>
	<BC56C4F2-7791-4781-9C12-F0635F42A055@list.org>
	<4857CEAC.2030006@msapiro.net>
	<FBED470E-320E-4E10-8140-DA119D38B395@list.org>
Message-ID: <4857E11D.4090904@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Barry Warsaw wrote:
| On Jun 17, 2008, at 10:48 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
|
|> This was discussed at length in October, 1985 in the thread that begins
|> at
|>
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2005-October/018255.html>.

|
|
| Wow, it's shocking to realize how long I've been hacking on Mailman
| then! :)


I have trouble with decades and centuries - I guess it's just an
unconscious desire to remain young forever ;)

/Mark

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFIV+EdVVuXXpU7hpMRAqseAJ9vMdEJMb70AsABIh9dTOZvBeU0yACfXlK0
7pLFHVXdh0EwdxycXVWJISU=
=ixUB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From barry at list.org  Tue Jun 17 19:31:55 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:31:55 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New FAQ
Message-ID: <7C24DBEE-5818-4561-8851-EC5DC2759D09@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi everybody,

I wanted to let you know that Terri Oda has written a nice script to  
turn the old FAQ wizard into FAQ entries on the wiki.  She and others  
have spent some time gardening, tweaking and updating the wiki FAQ and  
it is now ready to take over as our definitive FAQ.  Thanks Terri and  
everyone else who contributed to this effort!

We'll keep the old FAQ wizard around so that existing links will  
continue to work.  I've added a footer indicating that it is obsolete  
and pointing people at the wiki FAQ.  I've also disabled write access  
to the FAQ wizard.

Here's the new FAQ:

http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Frequently+Asked+Questions

There's also a link to this on the front page of the wiki:

http://wiki.list.org

Enjoy,
- -Barry

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)

iEYEARECAAYFAkhX9QwACgkQ2YZpQepbvXGDXQCgiBI4IXaBFgt9Wc+ZpjQc1zVN
LzkAnRnOiqHrnk5KdoD6brqhmxFHag8e
=2fZN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From stephen at xemacs.org  Tue Jun 17 22:17:33 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 05:17:33 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce info not updating in MM
	2.1.11rc1	+	patch
In-Reply-To: <FBED470E-320E-4E10-8140-DA119D38B395@list.org>
References: <bfc33ad70806160101h6649534ej33ab1c399839b18e@mail.gmail.com>
	<BC56C4F2-7791-4781-9C12-F0635F42A055@list.org>
	<4857CEAC.2030006@msapiro.net>
	<FBED470E-320E-4E10-8140-DA119D38B395@list.org>
Message-ID: <87zlpjrf36.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Barry Warsaw writes:

 > Wow, it's shocking to realize how long I've been hacking on Mailman  
 > then! :)

Isn't

    http://www.vimeo.com/1093745

even more impressive as proof of Barry's longevity, though!


From barry at list.org  Tue Jun 17 22:11:09 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:11:09 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce info not updating in MM 2.1.11rc1
	+	patch
In-Reply-To: <87zlpjrf36.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <bfc33ad70806160101h6649534ej33ab1c399839b18e@mail.gmail.com>
	<BC56C4F2-7791-4781-9C12-F0635F42A055@list.org>
	<4857CEAC.2030006@msapiro.net>
	<FBED470E-320E-4E10-8140-DA119D38B395@list.org>
	<87zlpjrf36.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <BBCD6859-B99A-41D1-B29C-D500909143A5@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jun 17, 2008, at 4:17 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> Barry Warsaw writes:
>
>> Wow, it's shocking to realize how long I've been hacking on Mailman
>> then! :)
>
> Isn't
>
>    http://www.vimeo.com/1093745
>
> even more impressive as proof of Barry's longevity, though!

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2008-June/080468.html

Kind of scared me a little too ;)

- -Barry

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)

iEYEARECAAYFAkhYGl0ACgkQ2YZpQepbvXGazQCfVLt/YJpwCC9Q2JBmadHx2yJY
ilgAnjMY6TlDFoNiJ9FZcPuA9zBKDn3y
=UEoy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From mark at msapiro.net  Tue Jun 17 22:37:57 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:37:57 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce info not updating in MM 2.1.11rc1 +
 patch
In-Reply-To: <4857CEAC.2030006@msapiro.net>
References: <bfc33ad70806160101h6649534ej33ab1c399839b18e@mail.gmail.com>
	<BC56C4F2-7791-4781-9C12-F0635F42A055@list.org>
	<4857CEAC.2030006@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <485820A5.7000409@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Mark Sapiro wrote:
|
| In particular, see my post at
|
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2005-October/018261.html>

|
| for an alternate patch which I thought was more complete. As I note in
| that post, I was new to Mailman at that time and was reluctant to commit
| that patch without additional input. In fact, I think I only acquired
| commit privileges during the time of that thread.
|
| In any case, I'll revisit it now for inclusion in 2.1.11.


See the attached Bouncer.patch.txt file for the current patch.

I think there are problems with Fil's patch posted here. In particular,
I think that when a user is disabled for bounce, the re-enable cookie
won't be stored in the bounce_info which I think is not too significant,
but I also think that the updated info.noticesleft in the
sendNextNotification() method is not saved which, if I am right will
mean that no bouncing member is ever unsubscribed - they just keep
getting periodic notices forever.

I think there was also a problem with my original patch in that it
didn't reset bounce info when a probe was sent, but I don't think this
is too significant.

I have tested this patch with OldStyleMemberships.py and it appears to
cause no regression. I also installed it in a production system using
OldStyleMemberships.py and will be monitoring that, but of course this
doesn't say anything about how it works with MysqlMemberAdaptor.py or
any other which saves bounce info outside the list instance.

Fil, I would appreciate your trying the attached patch instead of the
one you're using and reporting the results.

/Mark

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFIWCClVVuXXpU7hpMRAo57AJ9aYDnC+8YrysO3l8ecXvnBfB3lXACgpIqc
ERIX3ort5Ky1P1OX/7zCwv4=
=4LXA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: Bouncer.patch.txt
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20080617/3670563f/attachment-0001.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Bouncer.patch.txt.sig
Type: application/octet-stream
Size: 65 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20080617/3670563f/attachment-0001.obj>

From fil at rezo.net  Tue Jun 17 23:29:36 2008
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:29:36 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce info not updating in MM 2.1.11rc1 +
	patch
In-Reply-To: <485820A5.7000409@msapiro.net>
References: <bfc33ad70806160101h6649534ej33ab1c399839b18e@mail.gmail.com>
	<BC56C4F2-7791-4781-9C12-F0635F42A055@list.org>
	<4857CEAC.2030006@msapiro.net> <485820A5.7000409@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <bfc33ad70806171429k73594825y2a36bd7aebc0120b@mail.gmail.com>

> See the attached Bouncer.patch.txt file for the current patch.

patch applied; is there a way to accelerate time like in the vimeo
movie... or do I have to read the next four days of logs?  :)

-- Fil

From fil at rezo.net  Wed Jun 18 08:34:04 2008
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 08:34:04 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce info not updating in MM 2.1.11rc1 +
	patch
In-Reply-To: <bfc33ad70806171429k73594825y2a36bd7aebc0120b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bfc33ad70806160101h6649534ej33ab1c399839b18e@mail.gmail.com>
	<BC56C4F2-7791-4781-9C12-F0635F42A055@list.org>
	<4857CEAC.2030006@msapiro.net> <485820A5.7000409@msapiro.net>
	<bfc33ad70806171429k73594825y2a36bd7aebc0120b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bfc33ad70806172334n2a369cb1r979b119857fbc00e@mail.gmail.com>

>> See the attached Bouncer.patch.txt file for the current patch.

Seems to have been functioning as I had this morning this kind of logs

Jun 18 04:15:32 2008 (7299) listname: email at example.tld current bounce
score: 2.0
Jun 18 04:15:32 2008 (7299) listname: email at example.tld disabling due
to bounce score 2.0 >= 2.0
Jun 18 04:15:32 2008 (7299) listname: email at example.tld deleted after
exhausting notices

and those email addresses have been removed from the database

-- Fil

From fil at rezo.net  Wed Jun 18 14:48:30 2008
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:48:30 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bouncer
Message-ID: <bfc33ad70806180548g7771b804g839c28058e2289de@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

there are two things I don't like in bouncer.py algorithm

1. for a list that sends one message every week, it sortof fails as it
gets "clean" days in between (I think)

2. instead of removing the address I'd prefer we disable it
permanently (as an option)

I can probably cook a patch for #2., but I'm not sure what to do about #1.

-- Fil

From maickel.pandie at gmail.com  Wed Jun 18 16:25:18 2008
From: maickel.pandie at gmail.com (Maickel Pandie)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 21:25:18 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd: Fwd: Fwd: How To change queue process
	method
In-Reply-To: <6a215fbe0806180718g4ef36452ve7e22a035f24bf33@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a215fbe0806091916y60713709g81a536741b2a3276@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC187020080609215225079670c74ef5@msapiro>
	<6a215fbe0806101701u731bfde9rd4e2b1b829beeed9@mail.gmail.com>
	<6a215fbe0806160025k2d9eaa55k5deca40c41644091@mail.gmail.com>
	<A6B97B5C-6C31-4137-803E-9D65A02EE958@list.org>
	<6a215fbe0806180718g4ef36452ve7e22a035f24bf33@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a215fbe0806180725n5982c9cdx2225113c54b8baee@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Maickel Pandie <maickel.pandie at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 21:18:44 +0700
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd: Fwd: How To change queue process method
To: Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org>

Question again...

>> In Switchboard.files() Can I get listname from the digest/
>> filebase? How?
>
> Nope.  That information is available in the metadata, but you have to
> dequeue the file in order to read it.

1. Can you give me the example of dequeue metadata file to get the
listname of the message please? I need the listname of the message
because I made my own function to count how many domain as the
destination of the message and the input of that function is listname

2. Can you give me any suggestion how to get attachment file size from
each message?

3. Is there any function in mailman who can give me the size of the
message? What variable that I need to get the size of the message?
(filename, listname, filebase, or other variabel)

Many Thanks

2008/6/16, Barry Warsaw <barry at list.org>:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Jun 16, 2008, at 3:25 AM, Maickel Pandie wrote:
>
>> I have some problem here and I didn't know how to solve it.
>> I sent 1 message to milis_01 at milis.com (listname) and I record what
>> Switchboard.files() return to Runner.py:
>>
>> 1213621876.0387881+53028ae65697f5b1c06e9cf0f3b04ae1bb2ecfb1
>> 1213621876.0387881+ad9a762eff62186e94d26fda95865243b6dc4069
>> 1213621876.0387881+e7efb136c33f77e0674e03512860aadb23a2d605
>>
>>> From Switchboard.enqueue() and Switchboard.files() I knew that
>> 1213621876.0387881 is the rcvtime
>>
>> What I asking are:
>>
>> 1. Why the digest (53028ae65697f5b1c06e9cf0f3b04ae1bb2ecfb1,
>> ad9a762eff62186e94d26fda95865243b6dc4069,
>> e7efb136c33f77e0674e03512860aadb23a2d605) are changing for same
>> message?
>
> Because the hash is calculated from the entire contents of the file,
> which includes the message's metadata dictionary.  That will change
> each time the message is re-queued.
>
>> 2. In Switchboard.files() Can I get listname from the digest/
>> filebase? How?
>
> Nope.  That information is available in the metadata, but you have to
> dequeue the file in order to read it.
>
> Cheers,
> - -Barry
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkhWjJ4ACgkQ2YZpQepbvXEJEwCdFw6o4MhGsheX+Mu8Pn11GW4N
> vFMAnRARv78M+7YpwVxNJCoqIOoBt8/o
> =9HdD
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 18 17:24:48 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 08:24:48 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] How To change queue process method
In-Reply-To: <6a215fbe0806180725n5982c9cdx2225113c54b8baee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008061808244808120c2b5e9c@msapiro>

Maickel Pandie wrote:
>
>1. Can you give me the example of dequeue metadata file to get the
>listname of the message please? I need the listname of the message
>because I made my own function to count how many domain as the
>destination of the message and the input of that function is listname


You are creating a huge can of worms, however if you insist ...

In the files() method, you don't want to dequeue the message because
while that will get you the message and the metadata, it will also
remove the queue entry (actually rename it from .pck to .bak). I
suppose you could then rename the .bak back to .pck, but since files()
is really only in the business of preparing a list of entries to be
dequeued by a runner, I think it is best to read the pickle (if you
must) without dequeueing it in the files() method.

So you would do something like:

    msg = cPickle.load(fp)
    data = cPickle.load(fp)

Then the list name is data.get('listname')

>2. Can you give me any suggestion how to get attachment file size from
>each message?


You can look at the "Is the message too big?" code in
Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py.


>3. Is there any function in mailman who can give me the size of the
>message? What variable that I need to get the size of the message?
>(filename, listname, filebase, or other variabel)


With msg and data as above

    if data.get('_parsemsg'):
        size = len(msg)
    else:
        size = len(msg.as_string())


Ask yourself if the cost of all this extra work is not greater than
whatever you think you're going to save.
   
-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 18 17:29:54 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 08:29:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce info not updating in MM 2.1.11rc1 +
	patch
In-Reply-To: <bfc33ad70806172334n2a369cb1r979b119857fbc00e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008061808295406564e55e1c6@msapiro>

Fil wrote:

>>> See the attached Bouncer.patch.txt file for the current patch.
>
>Seems to have been functioning as I had this morning this kind of logs
>
>Jun 18 04:15:32 2008 (7299) listname: email at example.tld current bounce
>score: 2.0
>Jun 18 04:15:32 2008 (7299) listname: email at example.tld disabling due
>to bounce score 2.0 >= 2.0
>Jun 18 04:15:32 2008 (7299) listname: email at example.tld deleted after
>exhausting notices
>
>and those email addresses have been removed from the database


That's all good, but we also want to see a score increment.

Ideally, there would be a list with threshold greater than 2 and we
would see the score set to 1, increment to 2 and then increment to 3.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 18 18:09:26 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:09:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bouncer
In-Reply-To: <bfc33ad70806180548g7771b804g839c28058e2289de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC18702008061809092607184e55e1e8@msapiro>

Fil wrote:
>
>there are two things I don't like in bouncer.py algorithm
>
>1. for a list that sends one message every week, it sortof fails as it
>gets "clean" days in between (I think)


That's what bounce_info_stale_after is for. It should be set to
something around 14 for a list with one post a week.


>2. instead of removing the address I'd prefer we disable it
>permanently (as an option)


You can always set bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings to a really big
number :)

You could also not run cron/disabled.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From fil at rezo.net  Wed Jun 18 18:23:22 2008
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:23:22 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce info not updating in MM 2.1.11rc1 +
	patch
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008061808295406564e55e1c6@msapiro>
References: <bfc33ad70806172334n2a369cb1r979b119857fbc00e@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC18702008061808295406564e55e1c6@msapiro>
Message-ID: <bfc33ad70806180923g3f9f44d8u85060eec946f9043@mail.gmail.com>

> That's all good, but we also want to see a score increment.
>
> Ideally, there would be a list with threshold greater than 2 and we
> would see the score set to 1, increment to 2 and then increment to 3.

It seems that I have all kinds of results:
xxx already scored a bounce for date 18-Jun-2008
xxx current bounce score: 4.0  (and I checked in the database that is
it stored as bi_score=4)

on that list where the threshold is set to 2, adresses have been removed

if we follow one address we have

Jun 15 22:51:45 2008 (5324) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net bounce score: 1.0
Jun 15 23:21:47 2008 (5324) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net already
scored a bounce for date 15-Jun-2008
Jun 16 00:22:11 2008 (5324) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net current
bounce score: 2.0
Jun 16 00:52:16 2008 (5324) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net current
bounce score: 2.0
Jun 16 14:08:11 2008 (4700) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net current
bounce score: 2.0
Jun 16 14:23:15 2008 (4700) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net already
scored a bounce for date 16-Jun-2008
Jun 16 15:23:26 2008 (4700) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net already
scored a bounce for date 16-Jun-2008
Jun 16 15:53:40 2008 (4700) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net already
scored a bounce for date 16-Jun-2008
Jun 16 23:40:22 2008 (4700) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net already
scored a bounce for date 16-Jun-2008
Jun 17 07:15:43 2008 (12778) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net current
bounce score: 3.0
Jun 17 14:47:12 2008 (12778) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net already
scored a bounce for date 17-Jun-2008
Jun 17 15:32:29 2008 (12778) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net already
scored a bounce for date 17-Jun-2008
Jun 17 16:47:34 2008 (12778) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net already
scored a bounce for date 17-Jun-2008
Jun 17 17:02:34 2008 (12778) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net already
scored a bounce for date 17-Jun-2008
Jun 17 17:02:34 2008 (12778) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net already
scored a bounce for date 17-Jun-2008
Jun 17 17:17:35 2008 (12778) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net already
scored a bounce for date 17-Jun-2008
Jun 17 21:33:23 2008 (12778) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net already
scored a bounce for date 17-Jun-2008
Jun 17 21:48:25 2008 (12778) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net already
scored a bounce for date 17-Jun-2008
Jun 17 22:18:29 2008 (12778) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net already
scored a bounce for date 17-Jun-2008
Jun 17 22:48:37 2008 (12778) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net already
scored a bounce for date 17-Jun-2008
** Mark's patch applied **
Jun 18 18:05:53 2008 (7299) listname: xxxx.xxxxx at laposte.net current
bounce score: 4.0

that list's bounce_score_threshold is 5.0 so we'll see what happens
tomorrow  :-)

-- Fil

From mark at msapiro.net  Wed Jun 18 23:31:47 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:31:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce info not updating in MM 2.1.11rc1 +
	patch
In-Reply-To: <bfc33ad70806180923g3f9f44d8u85060eec946f9043@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200806181431470093dbb65c8c@msapiro>

Fil wrote:
>
>It seems that I have all kinds of results:
>xxx already scored a bounce for date 18-Jun-2008
>xxx current bounce score: 4.0  (and I checked in the database that is
>it stored as bi_score=4)


Thanks Fil. I'm sure it's good, but keep us posted.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From fil at rezo.net  Thu Jun 19 00:27:13 2008
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 00:27:13 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bounce info not updating in MM 2.1.11rc1 +
	patch
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200806181431470093dbb65c8c@msapiro>
References: <bfc33ad70806180923g3f9f44d8u85060eec946f9043@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC1870200806181431470093dbb65c8c@msapiro>
Message-ID: <bfc33ad70806181527l5c237fb5k1d5a32751e50af44@mail.gmail.com>

> Thanks Fil. I'm sure it's good, but keep us posted.

Someone just went through the threshold and got a delivery_status=4,
so I guess we're all good. Thanks

-- Fil

From maickel.pandie at gmail.com  Thu Jun 19 05:47:12 2008
From: maickel.pandie at gmail.com (Maickel Pandie)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:47:12 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] How To change queue process method
In-Reply-To: <PC18702008061808244808120c2b5e9c@msapiro>
References: <6a215fbe0806180725n5982c9cdx2225113c54b8baee@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC18702008061808244808120c2b5e9c@msapiro>
Message-ID: <6a215fbe0806182047w3bcd4216p194e7a3d75c4bdd8@mail.gmail.com>

I'm sory, but I have to do this research.
There is a case:
a lot of people using mailing list server to distribute many kind of
file to their group. The important things are a lot of group using
mailing list to distribute a big file but not urgent such as big
resolution picture, movie, etc. there also a group using mailing list
for work like distributing their report(pdf, doc, odt (small file))
and they need it to be delivered fast. The bandwidth is not so big to
deliver a lot of big file fast so I'm doing this research. This is my
kind of job now to research something like this despite this is not
important but I have to do it and make the report for the result.

Thanks for your help

2008/6/18 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
> Maickel Pandie wrote:
>>
>>1. Can you give me the example of dequeue metadata file to get the
>>listname of the message please? I need the listname of the message
>>because I made my own function to count how many domain as the
>>destination of the message and the input of that function is listname
>
>
> You are creating a huge can of worms, however if you insist ...
>
> In the files() method, you don't want to dequeue the message because
> while that will get you the message and the metadata, it will also
> remove the queue entry (actually rename it from .pck to .bak). I
> suppose you could then rename the .bak back to .pck, but since files()
> is really only in the business of preparing a list of entries to be
> dequeued by a runner, I think it is best to read the pickle (if you
> must) without dequeueing it in the files() method.
>
> So you would do something like:
>
>    msg = cPickle.load(fp)
>    data = cPickle.load(fp)
>
> Then the list name is data.get('listname')
>
>>2. Can you give me any suggestion how to get attachment file size from
>>each message?
>
>
> You can look at the "Is the message too big?" code in
> Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py.
>
>
>>3. Is there any function in mailman who can give me the size of the
>>message? What variable that I need to get the size of the message?
>>(filename, listname, filebase, or other variabel)
>
>
> With msg and data as above
>
>    if data.get('_parsemsg'):
>        size = len(msg)
>    else:
>        size = len(msg.as_string())
>
>
> Ask yourself if the cost of all this extra work is not greater than
> whatever you think you're going to save.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>
>

From maickel.pandie at gmail.com  Thu Jun 19 06:01:17 2008
From: maickel.pandie at gmail.com (Maickel Pandie)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:01:17 +0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] How To change queue process method
In-Reply-To: <6a215fbe0806182047w3bcd4216p194e7a3d75c4bdd8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a215fbe0806180725n5982c9cdx2225113c54b8baee@mail.gmail.com>
	<PC18702008061808244808120c2b5e9c@msapiro>
	<6a215fbe0806182047w3bcd4216p194e7a3d75c4bdd8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a215fbe0806182101w1fee91bak4527386f3337f8b8@mail.gmail.com>

Hi friend....

Do you have any suggestion what SMTP benchmark I can use except
Multimail2 to test Mailman+Postfix? Something that can return some
variabel not only sending a lot of email ?(This is for research and
not for spamming other)

Thanks

2008/6/19 Maickel Pandie <maickel.pandie at gmail.com>:
> I'm sory, but I have to do this research.
> There is a case:
> a lot of people using mailing list server to distribute many kind of
> file to their group. The important things are a lot of group using
> mailing list to distribute a big file but not urgent such as big
> resolution picture, movie, etc. there also a group using mailing list
> for work like distributing their report(pdf, doc, odt (small file))
> and they need it to be delivered fast. The bandwidth is not so big to
> deliver a lot of big file fast so I'm doing this research. This is my
> kind of job now to research something like this despite this is not
> important but I have to do it and make the report for the result.
>
> Thanks for your help
>
> 2008/6/18 Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
>> Maickel Pandie wrote:
>>>
>>>1. Can you give me the example of dequeue metadata file to get the
>>>listname of the message please? I need the listname of the message
>>>because I made my own function to count how many domain as the
>>>destination of the message and the input of that function is listname
>>
>>
>> You are creating a huge can of worms, however if you insist ...
>>
>> In the files() method, you don't want to dequeue the message because
>> while that will get you the message and the metadata, it will also
>> remove the queue entry (actually rename it from .pck to .bak). I
>> suppose you could then rename the .bak back to .pck, but since files()
>> is really only in the business of preparing a list of entries to be
>> dequeued by a runner, I think it is best to read the pickle (if you
>> must) without dequeueing it in the files() method.
>>
>> So you would do something like:
>>
>>    msg = cPickle.load(fp)
>>    data = cPickle.load(fp)
>>
>> Then the list name is data.get('listname')
>>
>>>2. Can you give me any suggestion how to get attachment file size from
>>>each message?
>>
>>
>> You can look at the "Is the message too big?" code in
>> Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py.
>>
>>
>>>3. Is there any function in mailman who can give me the size of the
>>>message? What variable that I need to get the size of the message?
>>>(filename, listname, filebase, or other variabel)
>>
>>
>> With msg and data as above
>>
>>    if data.get('_parsemsg'):
>>        size = len(msg)
>>    else:
>>        size = len(msg.as_string())
>>
>>
>> Ask yourself if the cost of all this extra work is not greater than
>> whatever you think you're going to save.
>>
>> --
>> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
>> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
>>
>>
>

From terri at zone12.com  Thu Jun 19 19:21:31 2008
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:21:31 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Web UI
Message-ID: <B2FCB8CD-6680-4996-A7EF-B203F6B35AB5@zone12.com>

A few days ago, a discussion of Mailman's web UI started on mailman- 
users: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ 
msg49681.html

Since this is more of a development effort than a users issue, we're  
moving continued discussion here.

I'll kick off the thread by answering a question:

> But how easy is it to actually improve the web UI?

Not very.  Not only is it tightly integrated, but any text change  
will have to go through all the many translators for various  
languages.  And then there's accessibility concerns, issues regarding  
any extra install requirements we might want to add (eg for  
templating systems), and the basic problem of building an interface  
that appeals to a rather large array of people... Changing the web UI  
is a big pain.

That said, I think this is a worthwhile endeavour, and we had  
previous discussed an improved web UI being a good goal for a 2.2  
release (we'll also need new UI for mm3, of course).  Just don't  
expect it to happen tomorrow or be a cakewalk.  This is not a project  
to take on lightly.


I've started up a wiki page here for us to capture ideas for an  
improved web UI:

http://wiki.list.org/x/RoBE


and being the self-interested person that I am, I'm going to try to  
generate some thoughts on my own idea here first ;)

I think we could benefit a fair bit from having a "simple" and an  
"expert" interface for the list administrators.  I had a number of  
replies both on and off list saying "yes!  please!" so I take it I'm  
not the only one who thinks this is a good idea.  My question to  
everyone is... what options would you deem essential in the "simple"  
interface?

  Terri


From cmpalmer at metalab.unc.edu  Thu Jun 19 19:48:18 2008
From: cmpalmer at metalab.unc.edu (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Crist=F3bal?= Palmer)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:48:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Web UI
In-Reply-To: <B2FCB8CD-6680-4996-A7EF-B203F6B35AB5@zone12.com>
References: <B2FCB8CD-6680-4996-A7EF-B203F6B35AB5@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <20080619174818.GC18617@garp.metalab.unc.edu>

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 01:21:31PM -0400, Terri Oda wrote:
>
> My question to everyone 
> is... what options would you deem essential in the "simple" interface?

* Membership management
 o add/remove members
 o adjust per-member digest settings
 o adjust per-member moderation
* Moderation
 o 3 PRESETS:
   announce-only list vs.
   moderated discussion vs.
   open discussion
* List Description
 o web landing page description
 o footer content
* Passwords
 o brain-dead obvious password reset procedure
   (we get a lot of tickets requesting a password reset)

Thanks for this...

Cheers,
-- 
Crist?bal Palmer
ibiblio.org systems administrator

From japruim at raoset.com  Thu Jun 19 20:23:02 2008
From: japruim at raoset.com (Jason Pruim)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:23:02 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Web UI
In-Reply-To: <B2FCB8CD-6680-4996-A7EF-B203F6B35AB5@zone12.com>
References: <B2FCB8CD-6680-4996-A7EF-B203F6B35AB5@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <8FFAB39B-1848-4661-BE2B-0019A9F57FC3@raoset.com>

Personally from my stand point, the only options that I can think of  
for a "simple" interface would be:

MAIN SITE ADMIN:
#1.	Create a new mailing list
#2.	Add Users to list
#3.	Manage digest/non digest options
#4.	Emergency moderation
#5.	Archives (Setting for public/private)

LIST ADMIN:
#1.	Manage subscriber list
#2.	Manage digest/non digest options
#3.	Emergency moderation
#4.	Archives (Public/private settings)


I think that's it... And then provide links to the advanced interface,  
Maybe have a "glossary" where you can go into and pull up all the  
settings and then click on it and link directly to it?

In fact... Depending on how the documentation is done, it might be  
possible to use that to grab the settings...


On Jun 19, 2008, at 1:21 PM, Terri Oda wrote:

> A few days ago, a discussion of Mailman's web UI started on mailman- 
> users: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/msg49681.html
>
> Since this is more of a development effort than a users issue, we're  
> moving continued discussion here.
>
> I'll kick off the thread by answering a question:
>
>> But how easy is it to actually improve the web UI?
>
> Not very.  Not only is it tightly integrated, but any text change  
> will have to go through all the many translators for various  
> languages.  And then there's accessibility concerns, issues  
> regarding any extra install requirements we might want to add (eg  
> for templating systems), and the basic problem of building an  
> interface that appeals to a rather large array of people... Changing  
> the web UI is a big pain.
>
> That said, I think this is a worthwhile endeavour, and we had  
> previous discussed an improved web UI being a good goal for a 2.2  
> release (we'll also need new UI for mm3, of course).  Just don't  
> expect it to happen tomorrow or be a cakewalk.  This is not a  
> project to take on lightly.
>
>
> I've started up a wiki page here for us to capture ideas for an  
> improved web UI:
>
> http://wiki.list.org/x/RoBE
>
>
> and being the self-interested person that I am, I'm going to try to  
> generate some thoughts on my own idea here first ;)
>
> I think we could benefit a fair bit from having a "simple" and an  
> "expert" interface for the list administrators.  I had a number of  
> replies both on and off list saying "yes!  please!" so I take it I'm  
> not the only one who thinks this is a good idea.  My question to  
> everyone is... what options would you deem essential in the "simple"  
> interface?
>
> Terri
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/japruim%40raoset.com
>
> Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
>

--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
11287 James St
Holland, MI 49424
www.raoset.com
japruim at raoset.com





From barry at list.org  Thu Jun 19 22:02:33 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:02:33 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Web UI
In-Reply-To: <B2FCB8CD-6680-4996-A7EF-B203F6B35AB5@zone12.com>
References: <B2FCB8CD-6680-4996-A7EF-B203F6B35AB5@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <7D8A90BB-AEE2-4BF7-9779-3FEDEA1CA783@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jun 19, 2008, at 1:21 PM, Terri Oda wrote:

> A few days ago, a discussion of Mailman's web UI started on mailman- 
> users: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/msg49681.html
>
> Since this is more of a development effort than a users issue, we're  
> moving continued discussion here.

Thanks for doing so Terri!

> I'll kick off the thread by answering a question:
>
>> But how easy is it to actually improve the web UI?
>
> Not very.  Not only is it tightly integrated, but any text change  
> will have to go through all the many translators for various  
> languages.  And then there's accessibility concerns, issues  
> regarding any extra install requirements we might want to add (eg  
> for templating systems), and the basic problem of building an  
> interface that appeals to a rather large array of people... Changing  
> the web UI is a big pain.
>
> That said, I think this is a worthwhile endeavour, and we had  
> previous discussed an improved web UI being a good goal for a 2.2  
> release (we'll also need new UI for mm3, of course).  Just don't  
> expect it to happen tomorrow or be a cakewalk.  This is not a  
> project to take on lightly.

All great points.

A couple of comments.  First, we're /somehow/ going to ease the  
translator problem.  This won't eliminate the problem, but I hope by  
bring up a Pootle server or adopting a FLOSS translation service we'll  
make it easier to get our interfaces translated.

Second, architecturally I really want to split the u/i so that it's  
not so tightly integrated.  Maki and Andrew are working on a  
privileged REST api to Mailman for controlling it in 2.2 and 3.0.  It  
is against this REST api that we should write the u/i, and it's my  
hope that we can design this API to be quite similar between the two  
branches.

> I've started up a wiki page here for us to capture ideas for an  
> improved web UI:
>
> http://wiki.list.org/x/RoBE
>
>
> and being the self-interested person that I am, I'm going to try to  
> generate some thoughts on my own idea here first ;)
>
> I think we could benefit a fair bit from having a "simple" and an  
> "expert" interface for the list administrators.  I had a number of  
> replies both on and off list saying "yes!  please!" so I take it I'm  
> not the only one who thinks this is a good idea.

Here's my +1 :)
- -Barry

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)

iEYEARECAAYFAkhau1kACgkQ2YZpQepbvXFqhwCfYL0wyZLhVyGC3IIP93apNJVg
09EAniqGtsCWCwkG3VRydOf3VNRy7rel
=kdMs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From barry at list.org  Thu Jun 19 23:36:30 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:36:30 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GPLv3
Message-ID: <966860EB-6431-4605-960E-3F40AA2C72C7@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

As you know, GNU Mailman has been an official GNU project for almost  
its entire life.

As such, our project receives certain benefits and has certain  
responsibilities.  One of our responsibilities is to adopt the  
standard GNU licensing regime.  This aligns with our goals for the  
project and so we do it gladly.

Last year, the Free Software Foundation released a significant update  
to the venerable GNU General Public License, called version 3 or  
GPLv3.  Recently, the FSF has been asking GNU projects in general, and  
GNU Mailman in particular to update to the GPLv3.  I think this is a  
good idea.  Briefly, compatibility with the Apache ASL 2.0 and the  
ability to exempt Python system libraries are two big benefits for us.

In talking with the FSF, we've agreed not to change Mailman 2.1 at  
all.  We will continue to release new Mailman 2.1 versions under the  
GPLv2, though hopefully after 2.1.11 there won't /be/ any more new 2.1  
releases ;).

Both Mailman 2.2 and 3.0 will be released under the GPLv3.  We've not  
made the changes to the source code yet, but we should do that soon.

I hope that you, our great Mailman community, will support this  
effort.  I don't think we need a big debate about the FSF, GNU or GPL  
here.  Long ago we committed to being a GNU project, and this is what  
the FSF wants all GNU projects to do.  I have less experience with the  
GPLv3 (as we all do!) but from my discussions and reading, I think the  
GPLv3 is a good license.  Please note that we are not planning to  
adopt the Affero GPLv3 even though Mailman has such a prominent web  
presence.

If you have a specific hardship with our adoption of GPLv3 for Mailman  
2.2 and 3.0, please let me know.  I may not be able to answer your  
questions, but we can bring in some official GNU and FSF people to  
help us address them.  I don't have a time frame for making the  
switch, but I'd like to do it soonish, and definitely before any next  
alpha release.

For more information, please see:

http://gplv3.fsf.org/
http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html

Cheers,
- -Barry

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)

iEYEARECAAYFAkha0V4ACgkQ2YZpQepbvXGydgCfXQ5VSeHcuPn9O/q4TInCW8ec
VjYAmgOBY5v/LKSih1PGGb8/MgrAigfq
=Oy7b
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From stephen at xemacs.org  Fri Jun 20 09:44:39 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 16:44:39 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers]  Web UI
In-Reply-To: <B2FCB8CD-6680-4996-A7EF-B203F6B35AB5@zone12.com>
References: <B2FCB8CD-6680-4996-A7EF-B203F6B35AB5@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <877ickr1nc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Terri Oda writes:

 > Not very.  Not only is it tightly integrated, but any text change  
 > will have to go through all the many translators for various  
 > languages.

Aha.  You beat me to that one.

I think that one way to deal with that, though, would be to simply
refactor the existing interface.  Unless Mailman does something very
weird, as I understand the implementation of gettext a strict
prohibition on changing the strings should allow you to use the same
translations.  Obviously the page would need to be retranslated,
though.

It should be possible to automatically create a database of many
useful translations even if they're not already in a gettext message
catalog by parsing the HTML.

Another possibility (which is not as attractive) is that I believe
that it's possible in gettext to change the template string but leave
it attached to the translation until the translation is updated.  This
obviously does depend on the translations being in a gettext message
catalog, though ... it won't work for page templates.

 > that appeals to a rather large array of people... Changing the web UI  
 > is a big pain.

Well, maybe we don't have to change it, just add a better one to it.
This probably requires some Deep Thinking, as there may be assumptions
that there's only one way to change an option buried in the interface
(in particular, the "changing the option here may cause other screens
to be out of date" kind of thing, but there may be more serious issues).

Sure, this could be done naively and just make things more complex,
but there may be ways to avoid that.

From iane at sussex.ac.uk  Fri Jun 20 13:05:55 2008
From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:05:55 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Web UI
In-Reply-To: <B2FCB8CD-6680-4996-A7EF-B203F6B35AB5@zone12.com>
References: <B2FCB8CD-6680-4996-A7EF-B203F6B35AB5@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <B7CC49C08458D9EECEF908F3@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>



--On 19 June 2008 13:21:31 -0400 Terri Oda <terri at zone12.com> wrote:

>
> I think we could benefit a fair bit from having a "simple" and an
> "expert" interface for the list administrators.  I had a number of
> replies both on and off list saying "yes!  please!" so I take it I'm not
> the only one who thinks this is a good idea.  My question to everyone
> is... what options would you deem essential in the "simple" interface?

List admin:
    Jason said:
    #1.	Manage subscriber list
        I think this needs bulk un/subscribe. Strong warnings about legal 
requirements should be present. Perhaps with localised links to guidance.
        Should also put individual moderation here. Perhaps some other 
options.
    #2.	Manage digest/non digest options
        I'm not sure this is absolutely required in a simple interface.
    #3.	Emergency moderation
        Yes!
    #4.	Archives (Public/private settings), navigate to archives, (maybe 
censor an archived message).

    Crist?bal added:
    #5 3 PRESETS:
        announce-only list vs.
        moderated discussion vs.
        open discussion
    #6 List Description
        web landing page description
        footer content

    I would add:
    #7 search for a list member.
    #8 Display/export entire membership list.
    #9 Add/remove a moderator
    #10 contact a system administrator to
        Request list removal,
        Request a new list, or
        Get help

Site admin:
----------
    site management (define lists, and list ownership, apply emergency 
moderation):
    #1 Display lists, with ownership and emergency moderation status.
        Perhaps sort/filter by owner or domain, style or moderation status, 
traffic.
    #2 Add a list with a preset style/change style.
    #3 Disable or Delete a list, and/or list archive.
    #4 Change a list owner or moderator.
    list management:
    #5 disable list features  (eg, to prevent the owner from changing 
footer content).
    #6 manage a list - with full feature set
    #7 become list owner - (so you can see the effect of disabling features)
-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
x3148

From barry at list.org  Fri Jun 20 15:10:47 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:10:47 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GPLv3
In-Reply-To: <966860EB-6431-4605-960E-3F40AA2C72C7@list.org>
References: <966860EB-6431-4605-960E-3F40AA2C72C7@list.org>
Message-ID: <8899992D-54B6-4DAC-95C3-9093250DE77F@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jun 19, 2008, at 5:36 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

> If you have a specific hardship with our adoption of GPLv3 for  
> Mailman 2.2 and 3.0, please let me know.  I may not be able to  
> answer your questions, but we can bring in some official GNU and FSF  
> people to help us address them.  I don't have a time frame for  
> making the switch, but I'd like to do it soonish, and definitely  
> before any next alpha release.

I have started a wiki page that we can use to collect and answer any  
issues with the switch.  I invite you to add your comments to this page:

http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/GPLv3

Cheers,
- -Barry

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)

iEYEARECAAYFAkhbrFcACgkQ2YZpQepbvXEBYACfRTbSyfl+Pc+Gv6NMH0Y3L0Cj
WggAoJ8dN/0/wYbTP76P3zh9CFEGU5LC
=+BjC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From barry at list.org  Fri Jun 20 16:24:01 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:24:01 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Calling all Mailman consultants
Message-ID: <0C4AB83D-1423-40EE-A086-DBC88B30F0EB@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi everybody,

I get asked all the time: will you set up my lists for pay?

I'm not interested or able to do this kind of work, but I always feel  
bad about turning people away without some pointers to other people.   
I've started a wiki page for those of you who might be interested in  
picking up some of this business.

http://wiki.list.org/display/COM/Mailman+consulting+services

This is different than the Mailman hosting page, but if you do both,  
it's okay to be on both lists!  If you perform these kinds of  
services, please do sign up on that page because I will be pointing  
people to it in the future.

Cheers,
- -Barry

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)

iEYEARECAAYFAkhbvYEACgkQ2YZpQepbvXGxXgCbBN+qAA2DXA7X0fCAg8yRPW6C
qV8Anil7gfCkCpfmO/qsd5T8zpFKU8ob
=kjOv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From fil at rezo.net  Fri Jun 20 19:48:14 2008
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:48:14 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] better logging of undiscernable bounces
Message-ID: <bfc33ad70806201048r3c2657acn5409041f889012b5@mail.gmail.com>

A very useful patch (against 2.1.11rc1)


--- Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.save.py  2008-06-20 19:34:51.000000000 +0200
+++ Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.py       2008-06-20 19:35:44.000000000 +0200
@@ -230,7 +230,8 @@ class BounceRunner(Runner, BounceMixin):
         # If that still didn't return us any useful addresses, then send it on
         # or discard it.
         if not addrs:
-            syslog('bounce', 'bounce message w/no discernable addresses: %s',
+            syslog('bounce', 'bounce message to %s w/no discernable
addresses: %s',
+                   mlist.internal_name(),
                    msg.get('message-id'))
             maybe_forward(mlist, msg)
             return


-- Fil
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: undiscernable.patch
Type: application/octet-stream
Size: 650 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20080620/870ec71c/attachment.obj>

From bob at nleaudio.com  Sat Jun 21 01:01:18 2008
From: bob at nleaudio.com (Bob Puff)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:01:18 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] better logging of undiscernable bounces
In-Reply-To: <bfc33ad70806201048r3c2657acn5409041f889012b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bfc33ad70806201048r3c2657acn5409041f889012b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080620230056.M3999@nleaudio.com>

Oh yeah!!! I did that one a while ago!

Bob


---------- Original Message -----------
From: Fil <fil at rezo.net>
To: "Mailman Developers" <mailman-developers at python.org>
Sent: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:48:14 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] better logging of undiscernable bounces

> A very useful patch (against 2.1.11rc1)
> 
> --- Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.save.py  2008-06-20 19:34:51.000000000 +0200
> 
> +++ Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.py       2008-06-20 
> 19:35:44.000000000 +0200 @@ -230,7 +230,8 @@ class 
> BounceRunner(Runner, BounceMixin):         # If that still didn't 
> return us any useful addresses, then send it on         # or discard 
> it.         if not addrs: -            syslog('bounce', 'bounce 
> message w/no discernable addresses: %s', +           
>  syslog('bounce', 'bounce message to %s w/no discernable addresses: 
> %s', +                   mlist.internal_name(),                    
> msg.get('message-id'))             maybe_forward(mlist, msg)         
>     return
> 
> -- Fil
------- End of Original Message -------


From barry at python.org  Sat Jun 21 04:06:10 2008
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:06:10 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] better logging of undiscernable bounces
In-Reply-To: <bfc33ad70806201048r3c2657acn5409041f889012b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bfc33ad70806201048r3c2657acn5409041f889012b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F501B3BD-DB61-4C52-A79B-DC34DAE00614@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jun 20, 2008, at 1:48 PM, Fil wrote:

> A very useful patch (against 2.1.11rc1)
>
>
> --- Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.save.py  2008-06-20  
> 19:34:51.000000000 +0200
> +++ Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.py       2008-06-20  
> 19:35:44.000000000 +0200
> @@ -230,7 +230,8 @@ class BounceRunner(Runner, BounceMixin):
>         # If that still didn't return us any useful addresses, then  
> send it on
>         # or discard it.
>         if not addrs:
> -            syslog('bounce', 'bounce message w/no discernable  
> addresses: %s',
> +            syslog('bounce', 'bounce message to %s w/no discernable
> addresses: %s',
> +                   mlist.internal_name(),
>                    msg.get('message-id'))
>             maybe_forward(mlist, msg)
>             return

Seems reasonable to me!
+1

- -Barry

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)

iQCVAwUBSFxiFXEjvBPtnXfVAQIb4wP7BJBzA2D/1CL2DEojxLVkOEOvrbPv5Z33
OisnDgmMYEYp6Ju6luJme7hRNfV/O1wLFvuGmC++s8P0u6Dm9fIyjt7bvoSN2Qb6
Ss5UhGuf7YoJZuwkAwcIlkUSpbtQWdaRU+TpWcBe8n8sUgiLPihlgTLYfnfOYfox
37QSpVRLvm8=
=E6rp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun 21 05:29:37 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:29:37 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] better logging of undiscernable bounces
In-Reply-To: <F501B3BD-DB61-4C52-A79B-DC34DAE00614@python.org>
References: <bfc33ad70806201048r3c2657acn5409041f889012b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<F501B3BD-DB61-4C52-A79B-DC34DAE00614@python.org>
Message-ID: <485C75A1.70907@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Barry Warsaw wrote:
| On Jun 20, 2008, at 1:48 PM, Fil wrote:
|
|> A very useful patch (against 2.1.11rc1)
|
|
|> --- Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.save.py  2008-06-20 19:34:51.000000000
|> +0200
|> +++ Mailman/Queue/BounceRunner.py       2008-06-20 19:35:44.000000000
|> +0200
|> @@ -230,7 +230,8 @@ class BounceRunner(Runner, BounceMixin):
|>         # If that still didn't return us any useful addresses, then
|> send it on
|>         # or discard it.
|>         if not addrs:
|> -            syslog('bounce', 'bounce message w/no discernable
|> addresses: %s',
|> +            syslog('bounce', 'bounce message to %s w/no discernable
|> addresses: %s',
|> +                   mlist.internal_name(),
|>                    msg.get('message-id'))
|>             maybe_forward(mlist, msg)
|>             return
|
| Seems reasonable to me!
| +1


My suggestion is a bit different. The patch is attached, but I'm not
completely sure about it.

I have changed Fil's log message from

'bounce message to %s w/no discernable addresses: %s'

to

'%s: bounce message w/no discernable addresses: %s'

This is both to make it more consistent with other bounce log messages
and to avoid mangling the existing string in case someone's log analysis
is looking for it.

The part I'm not sure about is adding the list name to the
'(forwarding|discarding) unrecognized' messages. One or the other of
these is always written immediately after the 'bounce message w/no
discernable addresses' message, so the list name isn't really required
since the list will be identifiable with the first change, and it may
even seem redundant, but I think it's more consistent to include it on
all the messages.

Other thoughts?

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFIXHWgVVuXXpU7hpMRArJoAKDQFTKTBbtBVFT4s7ZeZXwYZt6J1QCfVF3n
CRe+XfMTdYYaTJBstZ9e/+s=
=k8o+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: BounceRunner.patch.txt
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20080620/eb1f0ff3/attachment.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: BounceRunner.patch.txt.sig
Type: application/octet-stream
Size: 65 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20080620/eb1f0ff3/attachment.obj>

From stephen at xemacs.org  Sat Jun 21 07:50:57 2008
From: stephen at xemacs.org (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:50:57 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] better logging of undiscernable bounces
In-Reply-To: <485C75A1.70907@msapiro.net>
References: <bfc33ad70806201048r3c2657acn5409041f889012b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<F501B3BD-DB61-4C52-A79B-DC34DAE00614@python.org>
	<485C75A1.70907@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <87iqw3mj3y.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Mark Sapiro writes:
 > discernable addresses' message, so the list name isn't really required
 > since the list will be identifiable with the first change, and it may
 > even seem redundant, but I think it's more consistent to include it on
 > all the messages.

+1
+1

Consistency and (some) redundancy is good in logs.

From fil at rezo.net  Sat Jun 21 08:05:08 2008
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 08:05:08 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] better logging of undiscernable bounces
In-Reply-To: <485C75A1.70907@msapiro.net>
References: <bfc33ad70806201048r3c2657acn5409041f889012b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<F501B3BD-DB61-4C52-A79B-DC34DAE00614@python.org>
	<485C75A1.70907@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <bfc33ad70806202305m124b026ay83adb66c266aa023@mail.gmail.com>

> '%s: bounce message w/no discernable addresses: %s'

You are right it's more consistent

> The part I'm not sure about is adding the list name to the
> '(forwarding|discarding) unrecognized' messages. One or the other of
> these is always written immediately after the 'bounce message w/no
> discernable addresses' message, so the list name isn't really required
> since the list will be identifiable with the first change, and it may
> even seem redundant, but I think it's more consistent to include it on
> all the messages.

I agree; it will make grepping a listname much easier


-- Fil

From fil at rezo.net  Sat Jun 21 11:27:24 2008
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 11:27:24 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] needs explanation of the interaction between
	"site list" and bounces
Message-ID: <bfc33ad70806210227x419d155evc765466319fe5fca@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

(sorry to post here; I've been trying to re-subscribe to mailman-users
for two days, w/o luck, and I really need help -- can someone check
why I still can't post there?)

I'm looking for a description of the interactions between bounce
processing and the site list (mailman at ...) under 2.1.11rc1. It seems
to me that there is a case when the bounce processor doesn't recognize
a bounce, sends it to ??? which in turn generates an error like "you
are not allowed to post to the list mailman at ..."

thanks

-- Fil

From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun 21 22:10:53 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 13:10:53 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] needs explanation of the interaction
	between"site list" and bounces
In-Reply-To: <bfc33ad70806210227x419d155evc765466319fe5fca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PC1870200806211310530578d1481477@msapiro>

Fil wrote:
>
>I'm looking for a description of the interactions between bounce
>processing and the site list (mailman at ...) under 2.1.11rc1. It seems
>to me that there is a case when the bounce processor doesn't recognize
>a bounce, sends it to ??? which in turn generates an error like "you
>are not allowed to post to the list mailman at ..."


Here's the situation. Ordinarily, any unrecognized bounce may be
forwarded to the list owner depending on the list's
bounce_unrecognized_goes_to_list_owner setting. Nothing special here.

Where the site list comes in is not with unrecognized bounces per se.
It is involved with what happens when any message to the list owner
bounces.

Any message sent to the list-owner has an envelope sender set to the
sitelist-bounces address, so if a message sent to a list-owner
bounces, the bounce (assuming a conformant MTA is bouncing) goes to
the mailman-bounces at ... (or whatever the sitelist name is) address and
is handled as a bounce for that list. If it is recognized, it is
scored or discarded depending on whether or not the bounced address is
a member of the site list.

Now it gets tricky. If the bounce returned to the site list is
unrecognized and the sitelist is set to forward unrecognized bounces,
the bounce is forwarded. Now that forward may bounce too, so it is
sent with a special envelope from mailman-loop at ... (or whatever the
sitelist name is) so if it bounces, the bounce should be returned to
the loop address and every installation should have an alias

# The ultimate loop stopper address
mailman-loop: /usr/local/mailman/data/owner-bounces.mbox

to deliver these bounces to a mailbox.

There are certain other complications to avoid the loop that will
result if a list owner sets the list-bounces address as the 'owner'
address. This is avoided by looking for an X-BeenThere: header for the
list in the headers of the 'bounce'. The theory is that no real bounce
will have any X-BeenThere: header, so if this does, it came directly
from the list to the list-bounces address. In this case, it isn't
processed as a bounce, but is sent directly to the sitelist-owner with
envelope fron sitelist-loop.

There is no case where an unrecognized bounce should go to the site
list itself unless the sitelist is the owner of the sitelist or of the
list that sent the bounced message.

There are several comments (and of course the code itself) at the
beginning of BounceRunner._process() that give more detail.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun 21 22:36:20 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 13:36:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] needs explanation of the
	interactionbetween"site list" and bounces
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200806211310530578d1481477@msapiro>
Message-ID: <PC1870200806211336200593d1481465@msapiro>

Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>There are certain other complications to avoid the loop that will
>result if a list owner sets the list-bounces address as the 'owner'
>address. This is avoided by looking for an X-BeenThere: header for the
>list in the headers of the 'bounce'. The theory is that no real bounce
>will have any X-BeenThere: header, so if this does, it came directly
>from the list to the list-bounces address. In this case, it isn't
>processed as a bounce, but is sent directly to the sitelist-owner with
>envelope fron sitelist-loop.


Ooops. It isn't sent to sitelist-owner. It is sent to the site list.


>There is no case where an unrecognized bounce should go to the site
>list itself unless the sitelist is the owner of the sitelist or of the
>list that sent the bounced message.


Wrong!  If any message comes to bounce processing that is To: the
sitelist-bounces address (i.e., a bounce of a list-owner message or a
bounce of a message from the site list) or is for a list but has an
X-BeenThere header for that list, it will be sent to the site list
(not the site list owner) with envelope from sitelist-loop.

Note that this means that normal bounce processing doesn't work for the
site list. This shouldn't be a real hardship because members of the
site list should all be Mailman admins with good addresses anyway.

The problem that makes this necessary is that when a bounce arrives, we
can't really tell in every case where the original, bounced message
was sent or even if it is a real DSN.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From amanparnami at gmail.com  Sat Jun 21 11:27:34 2008
From: amanparnami at gmail.com (aman parnami)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:57:34 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Plugin to Geeklog
Message-ID: <f0084680806210227n595a9c5ey1088541089559066@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,
I, Aman Parnami, a Google SOC student working in Geeklog,
have been assigned the job of developing a Plugin to Geeklog
for integrating List/User Moderation,Subscription, Administration
etc. features of Mailman with Geeklog Project using REST Api.

An abstract of the project idea can be found at:
http://code.google.com/soc/2008/geeklog/appinfo.html?csaid=B75B38A30800A2E1

I am grateful for co-operation of Barry and Maki. I would love
to hear some suggestions/ideas from Mailman Community
on any thing remotely related to the idea briefed above.

I hope that if this project completes successfully, not only will
 the Geeklog community be benefited, it will pave the path for
use of Mailman with other such projects and thus increasing
it's user base.

Regards,
-- 
Aman Parnami
Computer Sc & Engg
Indian Institute of Technology Bombay

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jun 22 05:19:58 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:19:58 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] needs explanation of the interaction
 between "site list" and bounces
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200806211336200593d1481465@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200806211336200593d1481465@msapiro>
Message-ID: <485DC4DE.8020201@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

| Mark Sapiro wrote:
|>
|>There are certain other complications to avoid the loop that will
|>result if a list owner sets the list-bounces address as the 'owner'
|>address. This is avoided by looking for an X-BeenThere: header for the
|>list in the headers of the 'bounce'. The theory is that no real bounce
|>will have any X-BeenThere: header, so if this does, it came directly
|>from the list to the list-bounces address. In this case, it isn't
|>processed as a bounce, but is sent directly to the sitelist-owner with
|>envelope fron sitelist-loop.
|
|
| Ooops. It isn't sent to sitelist-owner. It is sent to the site list.


I've revisited this code in BounceRunner.py and recalled all the
misgivings I had the last time I looked at it.

Fil and I have been having an off-list exchange about some messages he
has seen from a Domino/Lotus server that appears to return a proper DSN
except several headers from the bounced message including the List-*
headers, Mailman-Version: and X-BeenThere: are included in the message
headers of the DSN itself (not just the part of the DSN that contains
the original message).  This triggered the loop detection logic and
mishandled the DSN.

I have now changed this code in two ways. I don't rely on X-BeenThere:
to detect a potential loop, and I do send these list-owner and looping
bounces to the site list owners rather than the site list.

A patch to BounceRunner.py incorporating these changes and the list-name
logging changes from the "better logging of undiscernable bounces"
thread is attached and will be in 2.1.11rc2 next week.

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFIXcTeVVuXXpU7hpMRAvotAKC9g0mhbVy0esNigcIhjHaG13+/BwCfcDB9
xZG9ZloQPLlE6eB/LhJCYU8=
=JBXr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: BounceRunner.patch2.txt
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20080621/237a9020/attachment.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: BounceRunner.patch2.txt.sig
Type: application/octet-stream
Size: 65 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20080621/237a9020/attachment.obj>

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jun 22 22:36:35 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:36:35 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] needs explanation of the interaction
 between "site list" and bounces
In-Reply-To: <485DC4DE.8020201@msapiro.net>
References: <PC1870200806211336200593d1481465@msapiro>
	<485DC4DE.8020201@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <485EB7D3.1060306@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Mark Sapiro wrote:
|
| I have now changed this code in two ways. I don't rely on X-BeenThere:
| to detect a potential loop, and I do send these list-owner and looping
| bounces to the site list owners rather than the site list.
|
| A patch to BounceRunner.py incorporating these changes and the list-name
| logging changes from the "better logging of undiscernable bounces"
| thread is attached and will be in 2.1.11rc2 next week.


And I've made yet another change. It turns out the the
BounceRunner.patch2.txt patch would fail to detect the unrecognized
bounce loop resulting from a list's owner being set to list-owner at ... or
list-admin@ ... if the list was in a virtual domain. The attached
BounceRunner.patch2.patch.txt corrects the previous patch to fix this
issue, and the attached BounceRunner.patch3.txt is a cumulative patch
starting with the logging changes.

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFIXrfTVVuXXpU7hpMRAlQjAKC/6VNvPGDAzJEhDPb9vr988eWidACcDGMl
UyaXqiXJUrjmg7+UPSK0BT4=
=34xR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: BounceRunner.patch2.patch.txt
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20080622/cc7d03df/attachment.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: BounceRunner.patch3.txt
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20080622/cc7d03df/attachment-0001.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: BounceRunner.patch2.patch.txt.sig
Type: application/octet-stream
Size: 65 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20080622/cc7d03df/attachment.obj>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: BounceRunner.patch3.txt.sig
Type: application/octet-stream
Size: 65 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20080622/cc7d03df/attachment-0001.obj>

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 23 21:48:47 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:48:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 2.1.11rc1 has been released
Message-ID: <485FFE1F.9090407@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I am happy to announce the release of the second release candidate for
Mailman 2.1.11.

Mailman 2.1.11 is a cleanup of a few problems found since the release of
Mailman 2.1.10. It fixes the issue of shunted email subscribe requests
and a few minor issues. It updates the contrib/mmdsr script for some
2.1.10 and 2.1.11 log and error messages, and it adds a new cron to cull
and optionally archive old entries in the 'bad' and 'shunt' queues. See
the release notes at
<http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?group_id=103&release_id=605074>
for details.

Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and
e-newsletters. Mailman is used for all the python.org and
SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.

For more information, including download links, please see:

http://www.list.org
http://mailman.sf.net
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman

At this point I anticipate releasing 2.1.11 final on June 30.  I am
currently waiting for some updates to the Brazilian Portuguese (pt-BR)
translation.  At this point, I expect that to be the only change from
2.1.11rc2 to 2.1.11 final.

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFIX/4fVVuXXpU7hpMRAvxcAKDTjfEJmwPy0qn240kIUiM90Xt0RQCePj1i
CkvCyaZtobyr01rJsae5Mik=
=GgXp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 23 21:58:49 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:58:49 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 2.1.11rc2 has been released
In-Reply-To: <485FFE1F.9090407@msapiro.net>
References: <485FFE1F.9090407@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <48600079.1000106@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Resending with the correct subject (2.1.11rc2, not 2.1.11rc1). Sorry for
any confusion.

Mark Sapiro wrote:
| I am happy to announce the release of the second release candidate for
| Mailman 2.1.11.
|
| Mailman 2.1.11 is a cleanup of a few problems found since the release of
| Mailman 2.1.10. It fixes the issue of shunted email subscribe requests
| and a few minor issues. It updates the contrib/mmdsr script for some
| 2.1.10 and 2.1.11 log and error messages, and it adds a new cron to cull
| and optionally archive old entries in the 'bad' and 'shunt' queues. See
| the release notes at
|
<http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?group_id=103&release_id=605074>

|
| for details.
|
| Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and
| e-newsletters. Mailman is used for all the python.org and
| SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.
|
| For more information, including download links, please see:
|
| http://www.list.org
| http://mailman.sf.net
| http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman
|
| At this point I anticipate releasing 2.1.11 final on June 30.  I am
| currently waiting for some updates to the Brazilian Portuguese (pt-BR)
| translation.  At this point, I expect that to be the only change from
| 2.1.11rc2 to 2.1.11 final.
|

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFIYAB5VVuXXpU7hpMRAnAeAJ46TsgBFSzJQOzNwgxftejVbit2bACfYdkc
n2tStuXTdGPmRQQ2IHh1Wjw=
=vk99
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From terri at zone12.com  Wed Jun 25 21:44:29 2008
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:44:29 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GNU Mailman Site Redesign
In-Reply-To: <901387E0-D87B-427F-9C6A-1018D8B0F42B@list.org>
References: <42a95f60803102010i47ea00ft4af82f46b4cdf1e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<901387E0-D87B-427F-9C6A-1018D8B0F42B@list.org>
Message-ID: <94C0A1E3-9222-4D6E-B0B5-10EA5157E81C@zone12.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Back in April, Satoshi Tanabe did a really nifty site redesign for  
Mailman.  Barry asked for a couple of changes, including a version  
which uses the current colour scheme, and before the discussion got  
sidetracked talking about wiki software.

I was needing a break from research this afternoon, so I tried to put  
together the things that came up:

http://terri.zone12.com/mm-website/

It's taking a lot of content from Satoshi Tanabe's original redesign,  
plus things from the original website and the wiki.  As far as I can  
tell, all the information from the original site is either there or  
linked (some of the docs are moved to the wiki).

I used the original site colours.  If you hate the beige, here's what  
the front page would like like with gray instead:

http://terri.zone12.com/mm-website/alt.html

So... thoughts?

If I don't hear any huge objections, I can set about taking those 7  
pages and replacing our current site with something a bit more  
modern. ;)  But I'd at least one person to sanity check it for me and  
see if anything got missed, or if there are broken links we need to  
update, etc.

  Terri

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin)

iD8DBQFIYqAdnB1cG1wafMARAg2pAKCGHFtXfjXTdaAz2fYDoM1PdEEP8ACgwEmD
batfRPd/33ASZ2azJop0Snk=
=lp2T
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From terri at zone12.com  Wed Jun 25 22:17:26 2008
From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:17:26 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GNU Mailman Site Redesign
In-Reply-To: <94C0A1E3-9222-4D6E-B0B5-10EA5157E81C@zone12.com>
References: <42a95f60803102010i47ea00ft4af82f46b4cdf1e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<901387E0-D87B-427F-9C6A-1018D8B0F42B@list.org>
	<94C0A1E3-9222-4D6E-B0B5-10EA5157E81C@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <CA6DB778-1771-46BC-8B0F-6271451E3378@zone12.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 25-Jun-08, at 3:44 PM, Terri Oda wrote:
> Back in April,

Err, my bad, it was actually March.  Clearly we're overdue for some  
action on this. ;)

  Terri

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin)

iD8DBQFIYqfWnB1cG1wafMARAgyUAJ9UkpaCWPU5G22CjYT0zwzubjDRBwCeJm+B
N7FIsexyRXEI6tX5CbqKgo0=
=pSFU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From fil at rezo.net  Thu Jun 26 09:40:13 2008
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:40:13 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] GNU Mailman Site Redesign
In-Reply-To: <CA6DB778-1771-46BC-8B0F-6271451E3378@zone12.com>
References: <42a95f60803102010i47ea00ft4af82f46b4cdf1e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<901387E0-D87B-427F-9C6A-1018D8B0F42B@list.org>
	<94C0A1E3-9222-4D6E-B0B5-10EA5157E81C@zone12.com>
	<CA6DB778-1771-46BC-8B0F-6271451E3378@zone12.com>
Message-ID: <bfc33ad70806260040q5cd89y79833f797d854a86@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Terri,

this is neat and simple, I like it :-)

I think the links color (light blue) is much too pale, and makes them
difficult to read against the white background




On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 10:17 PM, Terri Oda <terri at zone12.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 25-Jun-08, at 3:44 PM, Terri Oda wrote:
>>
>> Back in April,
>
> Err, my bad, it was actually March.  Clearly we're overdue for some action
> on this. ;)
>
>  Terri
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin)
>
> iD8DBQFIYqfWnB1cG1wafMARAgyUAJ9UkpaCWPU5G22CjYT0zwzubjDRBwCeJm+B
> N7FIsexyRXEI6tX5CbqKgo0=
> =pSFU
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> Searchable Archives:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/fil%40rezo.net
>
> Security Policy:
> http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
>



-- 
Fil

From jmhayes at speakeasy.net  Fri Jun 27 22:16:17 2008
From: jmhayes at speakeasy.net (Jordan Hayes)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:16:17 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Small bug/feature request in 2.1.11 RC2
Message-ID: <085901c8d892$a879ab70$0500120a@pavepaws>

This has been bugging me for a while now, and I finally tracked it down. 
In Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py (html_head, line 711) a little 
structure full of variables gets cobbled together for macro expansion in 
the templates; it includes the following variables:

 d = {"listname": html_quote(mlist.real_name, self.lang),
      "archtype": self.type,
      "archive":  self.volNameToDesc(self.archive),
      "listinfo": mlist.GetScriptURL('listinfo', absolute=1),
      "firstdate": quotetime(self.firstdate),
      "lastdate": quotetime(self.lastdate),
      "size": self.size,
      }

This gets sent to the expansion of archidxhead.html ... later, when 
archidxfoot.html is expanded (html_foot, line 678), the following 
variables get cobbled:

  d = {"lastdate": quotetime(self.lastdate),
       "archivedate": quotetime(self.archivedate),
       "listinfo": mlist.GetScriptURL('listinfo', absolute=1),
       "version": self.version,
       }

I have some changes that I've been using since Mailman 2.1.5 (that I've 
used to integrate swish-e) that try to reference %(listname)s in both 
archidx{head,foot}.html and it doesn't expand in the foot.

My belief is that all the variables should be available, but I'll settle 
for head and foot haveing the same ones; I'd even settle for just having 
listname available in foot :-)

/jordan 


From mark at msapiro.net  Sat Jun 28 01:58:32 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:58:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Small bug/feature request in 2.1.11 RC2
In-Reply-To: <085901c8d892$a879ab70$0500120a@pavepaws>
Message-ID: <PC1870200806271658320671c539097f@msapiro>

Jordan Hayes wrote:
>
>I have some changes that I've been using since Mailman 2.1.5 (that I've 
>used to integrate swish-e) that try to reference %(listname)s in both 
>archidx{head,foot}.html and it doesn't expand in the foot.
>
>My belief is that all the variables should be available, but I'll settle 
>for head and foot haveing the same ones; I'd even settle for just having 
>listname available in foot :-)


I understand. In fact, my todo list contains "Standard substitution
dictionary for templates."

Historically, the only substitutions available for any template are
those in the standard template. I know we can do better, but I wasn't
planning to attack this in the 2.1 branch. I can probably slip in
'listname' for archidxfoot.html, but I don't want to be inundated with
everyone's pet request.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From barry at list.org  Sat Jun 28 23:51:15 2008
From: barry at list.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:51:15 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Small bug/feature request in 2.1.11 RC2
In-Reply-To: <PC1870200806271658320671c539097f@msapiro>
References: <PC1870200806271658320671c539097f@msapiro>
Message-ID: <41D02DBA-2EBC-4ADA-8C81-DA10D68C08B2@list.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jun 27, 2008, at 7:58 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Historically, the only substitutions available for any template are
> those in the standard template. I know we can do better, but I wasn't
> planning to attack this in the 2.1 branch. I can probably slip in
> 'listname' for archidxfoot.html, but I don't want to be inundated with
> everyone's pet request.

+1
- -Barry

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)

iEYEARECAAYFAkhmslMACgkQ2YZpQepbvXH2EQCfTY2dzBN/9f83HBvs/cZEX3Tk
UxgAnjrGxYLRxD2wIL2wpf/vA0RHkJ5T
=RTw/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From vsant at hcs.harvard.edu  Sun Jun 29 04:25:10 2008
From: vsant at hcs.harvard.edu (Vivek Sant)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 22:25:10 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Web UI
Message-ID: <5653D107-1E23-426F-9F35-E64E36C183D4@hcs.harvard.edu>

Hi everyone,

My name is Vivek Sant, I am a rising sophomore at Harvard College. I  
am a member of the Harvard Computer Society, and among other things,  
we use Mailman to host approximately 3000 mailing lists for student  
groups. I wanted to start by saying thanks for a great product -  
we've been using Mailman successfully for several years. Recently, we  
decided to modify the user interface to make it easier to use, and to  
make it look nicer. As I've seen from the -users and -developers  
lists, it seems that there has been discussion lately about modifying  
the UI, and I'd be glad to help out in any manner possible.

For HCS' own instance of Mailman, I went ahead and changed up the UI,  
integrating CSS and generally making pages look much more visually  
appealing, and themed. If anyone is interested in seeing the changes  
I was able to make, check out <http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~vsant/mm/ 
mailman.html>. This page has comparison screenshots of a few  
representative pages where I did most of the work. I'd recommend  
looking at this page in Firefox/Camino, because Safari renders it  
badly and I've not checked with IE. If the screenshots look weird,  
open any image directly in the browser - they are "full-size." Also,  
I created a branch with bzr and its located at <http:// 
www.hcs.harvard.edu/~vsant/mm/mailman_stable_newGUI>, in case anyone  
feels like looking at my code changes.

I had to modify files all over the place in making these changes;  
files in templates/en, Mailman/, Mailman/Cgi, Mailman/Archive,  
Mailman/Gui, and interestingly, cgi-bin. I had to place a few files  
in cgi-bin, but in the bzr branch (I pulled this off of lp:mailman/ 
stable) it seems that cgi-bin scripts were created by the makefile,  
so I just created a cgi-bin folder in my branch saying that files in  
there (css, imgs etc) must be copied to the install dir's cgi-bin  
folder. There is a lot of code that creates links with a function  
like Link(label, href), and while it seems like great abstraction, it  
was a bit difficult for me to add something like say,  
class=cool_link. So I ended up ripping out some of those function  
calls and just building each link piece by piece.

So overall, I just wanted to introduce myself, describe what work I  
have done so far, and also say that I'd love to help out with UI  
redesign efforts this summer! Comments/suggestions about my design  
are, of course, welcome, as well as questions if I have been unclear.

Best regards,
Vivek

From fil at rezo.net  Sun Jun 29 15:53:23 2008
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:53:23 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Web UI
In-Reply-To: <5653D107-1E23-426F-9F35-E64E36C183D4@hcs.harvard.edu>
References: <5653D107-1E23-426F-9F35-E64E36C183D4@hcs.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <bfc33ad70806290653n2caa1307qb4e31e51180b43d0@mail.gmail.com>

> For HCS' own instance of Mailman, I went ahead and changed up the UI,
> integrating CSS and generally making pages look much more visually
> appealing, and themed. If anyone is interested in seeing the changes I was
> able to make, check out <http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~vsant/mm/mailman.html>.

Awesome !

-- Fil

From jmhayes at speakeasy.net  Sun Jun 29 20:07:15 2008
From: jmhayes at speakeasy.net (Jordan Hayes)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 11:07:15 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Another small bug in 2.1.11 RC2
Message-ID: <04bd01c8da12$fe07ce10$0500120a@pavepaws>

This seems to have crept in between 2.1.9 and 2.1.10:

% cd cron
% grep "#!" *
bumpdigests:#! @PYTHON@
checkdbs:#! @PYTHON@
cull_bad_shunt:#! @PYTHON@
disabled:#! @PYTHON@
gate_news:#! @PYTHON@
mailpasswds:#! @PYTHON@
nightly_gzip:#! @PYTHON@
senddigests:#! /usr/bin/python      <<----

So senddigest is broken if you redefine where your Python install is.

/jordan

From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jun 29 20:27:54 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 11:27:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Another small bug in 2.1.11 RC2
In-Reply-To: <04bd01c8da12$fe07ce10$0500120a@pavepaws>
Message-ID: <PC1870200806291127540515cd662339@msapiro>

Jordan Hayes wrote:

>This seems to have crept in between 2.1.9 and 2.1.10:
>
>% cd cron
>% grep "#!" *
>bumpdigests:#! @PYTHON@
>checkdbs:#! @PYTHON@
>cull_bad_shunt:#! @PYTHON@
>disabled:#! @PYTHON@
>gate_news:#! @PYTHON@
>mailpasswds:#! @PYTHON@
>nightly_gzip:#! @PYTHON@
>senddigests:#! /usr/bin/python      <<----
>
>So senddigest is broken if you redefine where your Python install is.


Ooops! - fixed for 2.1.11. Thanks for the report

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan


From mark at msapiro.net  Mon Jun 30 21:15:42 2008
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:15:42 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 2.1.11 final has been released.
Message-ID: <486930DE.6050202@msapiro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I am happy to announce the final release of the Mailman 2.1.11.

Mailman 2.1.11 is a cleanup of a few problems found since the release of
Mailman 2.1.10. It fixes the issue of shunted email subscribe requests
and a few minor issues. It updates the contrib/mmdsr script for some
2.1.10 and 2.1.11 log and error messages, and it adds a new cron to cull
and optionally archive old entries in the 'bad' and 'shunt' queues.

Mailman 2.1.11 has updates to several i18n translations.

A few bounce log messages now have the list name prepended.

There is a new Defaults.py|mm_cfg.py setting
ACCEPTABLE_LISTNAME_CHARACTERS with default value '[-+_.=a-z0-9]'.  This
Python regular expression character class specifies the characters
allowed in list names.  The motivation for this is the fact that
previously, a list named, e.g., xxx&yyy could be created and MTA aliases
generated that would cause the MTA to execute yyy as a command.  There
is a possible security issue  here, but it is not believed to be
exploitable in any meaningful way.

If anyone is concerned about the security issue and not ready to
upgrade, the mailman-2.1.11-listname-patch file contains a patch that
can be applied to Mailman 2.1.9 or 2.1.10 to add this feature.

See the release notes at
<http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?group_id=103&release_id=605074>
for more details.

Mailman is free software for managing email mailing lists and
e-newsletters. Mailman is used for all the python.org and
SourceForge.net mailing lists, as well as at hundreds of other sites.

For more information, including download links, please see:

http://www.list.org
http://mailman.sf.net
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman

Files in this release are:

mailman-2.1.11.tgz                <- The full release tarball

mailman-2.1.11.tgz.sig            <- GPG signature for the tarball

mailman-2.1.11-listname.patch     <- Patch to add new listname
~                                     validation to 2.1.9 or 2.1.10.
~                                     This patch is only applicable to
~                                     the older releases.

mailman-2.1.11-listname.patch.sig <- GPG signature for the patch

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFIaTDdVVuXXpU7hpMRApGpAKDXM56DmmpBY28+X6pN2sDpyyZltACgr3wm
ePBR1weSHPYd1ViPCTc/L8o=
=bV1I
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----