[Mailman-Developers] Has Mailman lost its way?

[Barry Warsaw]

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Hi David,

Thanks for the post.  As I hope you will soon see, I believe the  
Mailman projects is very much alive and kicking, and it is moving  
forward with a fairly clear plan.  Ultimately of course, that roadmap  
is subject to the constraints that many open source projects are also  
subject to, grand designs implemented between diaper changes, trading  
today's new feature or fix for falling ever farther behind in email,   
and convincing yourself that sleep is a Corportist plot.

On Mar 20, 2008, at 6:41 AM, David Lee wrote:

> Could I suggest that serious consideration be given to:
>
> 1. Freeze 2.1 now.  No new features. The only exception would be  
> security
> bug-fixes.  Nothing else.

This is happening.  When Mark releases 2.1.10, there will be no 2.1  
releases except for security or other serious bug fixes.

> 2. Freeze "new idea" development now.  Concentrate solely on  
> bugfixing the
> already implemented ideas.

Hmm.  Probably not realistic.  There's a huge backlog of good ideas  
waiting to get in.  Now is actually exactly the time to evaluate those  
and decide whether and where to implement them.

> 3. Decide whether 2.2 or 3.0 is the way of the near future.  The  
> reality
> is that neither of these has delivered anything to the real-world  
> end-user
> during two or more years.  Choose only one.  Freeze the other for  
> the time
> being, until the "chosen one" has been properly post-beta released.

I don't think this is going to happen.  Almost all new code for  
Mailman is today written by either Mark or myself.  This is not to  
dismiss all the fantastic contributions of other sorts by other  
people, nor to dismiss the huge number of patches available out on the  
'net.  But some of the things I've pushed for recently is specifically  
geared to getting more involvement from the community.  That's why I  
chose Bazaar as our dvcs.  I don't want patches, I want live branches  
that I can merge and review.

Both 2.2 and 3.0 are the future, but for different audiences.  I  
recognize that this means our limited resources are stretched even  
thinner, but I think it's justified.  Mailman 2.2 will be for those  
users who are happy (enough) with the 2.1 data model, and just want a  
few new features, a spruced up web u/i, and other modest but important  
improvements.  I consider Mailman 2.2 a critical project, and I am  
delighted that Mark will lead this effort.

While I will be involved in 2.2, and plan to be engaged in its design,  
I personally am spending my limited hacking time on 3.0.  Mailman 3 is  
the long promised solution to several architectural limitations in the  
MM2 series, and improving those aspects requires a bump to version 3.   
Mailman 3 also has a different focus.  It's trying to be at its core a  
mailing list delivery library, usable and easily integrated with a  
wide variety of applications and web frameworks.  Ultimately, Mailman  
3 will be usable just like 2 is, as a standalone turn-key system, but  
I think it's real power will be in its use as a component for more  
interesting systems.

Will 2.2 or 3.0 be released first?  I have no idea.

> 4. Whichever of the above is chosen, aim to start delivering betas  
> fast.
> Get something out there that you (the main developers) and we (some
> real-world end-users who can help bug-hunt) can get to work on,  
> knowing
> that our work will be productive in a foreseeable timescale.  Set the
> goal. Drive towards it, ignoring distractions.

Well, there is nothing stopping you from participating today.  I just  
released Mailman 3.0 alpha 1.  You can pull the code down, or branch  
from the Bazaar repository, start fixing bugs, implementing ideas and  
helping out.  You can push branches, request reviews, strive toward  
adoption in the core.  Soon, I expect we'll see some Mailman 2.2  
branches and alphas, and then you can do the same there.

This is a volunteer effort, on my and your part.  I've put my stake in  
the ground.  Where are you interesting in contributing?

> 5. For a few months, change the mindset away from development (yes,  
> I know
> we coders love it) and towards a firm, decisively-directed "release
> management" (to use ITIL-speak).
>
> Mailman used to be a leading product.  But it is slipping behind.
>
> We, the end-users, need some of that new code that's being lying  
> dormant,
> and (to an end-user) unuseable, during the last two years or so.
>
> Many of us, the enthusiastic real-world end-users, cannot  
> realistically
> commit to developing something for which there is no clear strategy.
> Give us a strategy, a roadmap with real, near-future dates on it,  
> then we
> can at least make local business cases to our local managements for  
> our
> taking part in beta trials.
>
> Let's get some new code out now as beta. There may be a sizeable  
> "TODO";
> there may be a sizeable "Known Problems".  But let's start releasing  
> betas
> soon, and concentrate all our limited efforts on that one common task.

It doesn't quite work that way.  Once you reach beta, features are  
frozen, and I think we're too early for that.  But we can have a  
vibrant alpha ecosystem right now, and if you're willing to  
participate, you can make a difference.  If that means you can't make  
a business case to your manager right now, then hack on it in your  
spare time.  Help us get to a point this year where we /can/ feature  
freeze and start releasing betas.  I would like nothing more than  
that, so that both you and I can begin to convince our managers to let  
us spend Real Work Time polishing and releasing.

> Otherwise, are we not in danger of following Majordomo into oblivion?

It's always possible, but I think unlikely.  You have it in your power  
to help avoid that fate.

> (Oh, and #1 on my own list is proper "virtual domains": the Jul/2005  
> paper
> mentioned that the code substantially existed.  But sadly it's never  
> come
> anywhere near a release schedule.  If we have a realistic beta-release
> schedule, then I can locally justify actively investing in bug- 
> hunting.)
>
> Sorry if that sounds harsh.  It is meant to be constructive.   
> (Honest!)

Proper virtual domains exist today, in Mailman 3.0a1.  Try it.  If  
there is anything stopping folks from participating, please let me  
know.  I'm very keen on helping remove barriers to participation.  But  
remember that Mark and I have jobs and families, other hobbies and  
lives.  Occasionally we like to eat and sleep too, so we develop the  
software when we can.  But I think we'd both welcome anybody who's  
interested getting more involved, in whatever way they want (it does  
not /have/ to be as a coder, as great contributions from Terri, Clytie  
and many others has proven).

I guess I need to sleep now.  Damn those Corportists!

Cheers,
- -Barry

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