From barry at python.org  Tue Jan  2 18:31:45 2007
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 12:31:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pickles begone
In-Reply-To: <C1BAD6F4.10C36%jwblist3@olympus.net>
References: <C1BAD6F4.10C36%jwblist3@olympus.net>
Message-ID: <881F917E-9BC8-4707-8758-7388D5A6E900@python.org>

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On Dec 29, 2006, at 5:30 PM, John W. Baxter wrote:

> On 12/29/06 2:17 PM, "Barry Warsaw" <barry at python.org> wrote:
>
>> I'm about to merge my SQLAlchemy branch to the trunk.  I'm happy
>> enough with where this is going to commit to this approach going
>> forward.
>
> [Loud cheering from the sidelines!!]

:)

BTW, I'm hoping there will be some adventurous folks willing to test  
out the trunk.  Don't use it for anything you care about, but at this  
point you should be able to export your MM2.1 lists and import them  
into the trunk.

- -Barry

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From fil at rezo.net  Tue Jan  2 18:40:05 2007
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 18:40:05 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pickles begone
In-Reply-To: <881F917E-9BC8-4707-8758-7388D5A6E900@python.org>
References: <C1BAD6F4.10C36%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<881F917E-9BC8-4707-8758-7388D5A6E900@python.org>
Message-ID: <20070102174003.GI17182@rezo.net>

> BTW, I'm hoping there will be some adventurous folks willing to test  
> out the trunk.  Don't use it for anything you care about, but at this  
> point you should be able to export your MM2.1 lists and import them  
> into the trunk.

A mini how-to would help me become adventurous again :)

How do I fetch the dev branch, what set of commands do I use to install
it and migrate a few lists. Nothing fancy, but precise urls and commands.

-- Fil


From barry at python.org  Tue Jan  2 18:53:38 2007
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 12:53:38 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pickles begone
In-Reply-To: <20070102174003.GI17182@rezo.net>
References: <C1BAD6F4.10C36%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<881F917E-9BC8-4707-8758-7388D5A6E900@python.org>
	<20070102174003.GI17182@rezo.net>
Message-ID: <BFB63873-2CF9-4798-ACD8-8C4D0C044084@python.org>

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On Jan 2, 2007, at 12:40 PM, Fil wrote:

>> BTW, I'm hoping there will be some adventurous folks willing to test
>> out the trunk.  Don't use it for anything you care about, but at this
>> point you should be able to export your MM2.1 lists and import them
>> into the trunk.
>
> A mini how-to would help me become adventurous again :)
>
> How do I fetch the dev branch, what set of commands do I use to  
> install
> it and migrate a few lists. Nothing fancy, but precise urls and  
> commands.

Good point.  I'll flesh things out in the wiki and will follow up  
here when that's ready.

- -Barry

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From barry at python.org  Wed Jan  3 00:30:43 2007
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 18:30:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pickles begone
In-Reply-To: <20070102174003.GI17182@rezo.net>
References: <C1BAD6F4.10C36%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<881F917E-9BC8-4707-8758-7388D5A6E900@python.org>
	<20070102174003.GI17182@rezo.net>
Message-ID: <DFA59B44-DE0A-4072-B6A1-BB6C2C67D46E@python.org>

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On Jan 2, 2007, at 12:40 PM, Fil wrote:

>> BTW, I'm hoping there will be some adventurous folks willing to test
>> out the trunk.  Don't use it for anything you care about, but at this
>> point you should be able to export your MM2.1 lists and import them
>> into the trunk.
>
> A mini how-to would help me become adventurous again :)
>
> How do I fetch the dev branch, what set of commands do I use to  
> install
> it and migrate a few lists. Nothing fancy, but precise urls and  
> commands.

Take a look at

http://wiki.list.org/x/ogI

and let me know what you think.

- -Barry

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From fil at rezo.net  Wed Jan  3 15:37:27 2007
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:37:27 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pickles begone
In-Reply-To: <DFA59B44-DE0A-4072-B6A1-BB6C2C67D46E@python.org>
References: <C1BAD6F4.10C36%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<881F917E-9BC8-4707-8758-7388D5A6E900@python.org>
	<20070102174003.GI17182@rezo.net>
	<DFA59B44-DE0A-4072-B6A1-BB6C2C67D46E@python.org>
Message-ID: <20070103143726.GP17182@rezo.net>

> >How do I fetch the dev branch, what set of commands do I use to install
> >it and migrate a few lists. Nothing fancy, but precise urls and commands.
> 
> Take a look at
> 
> http://wiki.list.org/x/ogI
> 
> and let me know what you think.

OK; I was able to follow the instructions to the point of doing configure;
make; make install. Here are my first glance/field notes:

I had to tweak permisions on logs/* to be able to launch bin/mailmanctl
start, as they had been created with g-w (the logs/ dir is correctly g+sxw)

then i was able to create a list by using bin/newlist; it did create
a directory in lists/listname at server/  (empty directory)

I found a sqlite db in data/mailman.db  (I understand that to use a MySQL db
I just need to create it and change the SQLAlchemy variable to reflect this
db??)

the web server launched ok on port 2580 (I guess I'll have to ProxyPass to
it from apache, which is fine).

It broke however when I tried to connect to it (put the list admin passwd,
and got :
         UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xe9 in position 207: ordinal not in range(128)

maybe because I chose "french" as default language (I then switched to
english, created another list, and got to the web ui)

tried to modify the list options thu the web ui and got

SQLError: (OperationalError) attempt to write a readonly database 'UPDATE
"List data" SET bounce_processing=? WHERE "Listdata".list_id = ?' [0, 2]


I haven't tried yet to convert an older list to the new system.


-- Fil


From tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp  Thu Jan  4 03:49:27 2007
From: tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp (Tokio Kikuchi)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 11:49:27 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pickles begone
In-Reply-To: <20070103143726.GP17182@rezo.net>
References: <C1BAD6F4.10C36%jwblist3@olympus.net>	<881F917E-9BC8-4707-8758-7388D5A6E900@python.org>	<20070102174003.GI17182@rezo.net>	<DFA59B44-DE0A-4072-B6A1-BB6C2C67D46E@python.org>
	<20070103143726.GP17182@rezo.net>
Message-ID: <459C6B37.8020703@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>

Hi Fil,

Fil wrote:

> tried to modify the list options thu the web ui and got
> 
> SQLError: (OperationalError) attempt to write a readonly database 'UPDATE
> "List data" SET bounce_processing=? WHERE "Listdata".list_id = ?' [0, 2]

Who and what is the owner and permission of data/mailman.db.  Are you 
accessing web ui via wsgi (HTTPRunner) or classic cgi?
> 
> 
> I haven't tried yet to convert an older list to the new system.
> 
> 
> -- Fil



-- 
Tokio Kikuchi, tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp
http://weather.is.kochi-u.ac.jp/

From fil at rezo.net  Thu Jan  4 10:55:00 2007
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 10:55:00 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pickles begone
In-Reply-To: <459C6B37.8020703@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
References: <C1BAD6F4.10C36%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<881F917E-9BC8-4707-8758-7388D5A6E900@python.org>
	<20070102174003.GI17182@rezo.net>
	<DFA59B44-DE0A-4072-B6A1-BB6C2C67D46E@python.org>
	<20070103143726.GP17182@rezo.net>
	<459C6B37.8020703@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20070104095500.GK17182@rezo.net>

> > tried to modify the list options thu the web ui and got
> > 
> > SQLError: (OperationalError) attempt to write a readonly database 'UPDATE
> > "List data" SET bounce_processing=? WHERE "Listdata".list_id = ?' [0, 2]
> 
> Who and what is the owner and permission of data/mailman.db.

fil at infora:~$ ls -al /usr/local/mailman22/data/
total 24
drwxrwsr-x  2 root    mailman 4096 2007-01-03 15:38 .
drwxrwsr-x 21 mailman mailman 4096 2007-01-03 15:02 ..
-rw-r--r--  1 root    mailman 9216 2007-01-03 15:38 mailman.db
-rw-rw----  1 mailman mailman    6 2007-01-03 15:33 master-qrunner.pid

so i guess it was the same persmission problem I had on logs/*


> Are you accessing web ui via wsgi (HTTPRunner) or classic cgi?

wsgi on localhost

-- Fil


From tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp  Thu Jan  4 11:29:09 2007
From: tkikuchi at is.kochi-u.ac.jp (=?UTF-8?B?6I+K5Zyw5pmC5aSr?=)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 19:29:09 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pickles begone
In-Reply-To: <20070104095500.GK17182@rezo.net>
References: <C1BAD6F4.10C36%jwblist3@olympus.net>	<881F917E-9BC8-4707-8758-7388D5A6E900@python.org>	<20070102174003.GI17182@rezo.net>	<DFA59B44-DE0A-4072-B6A1-BB6C2C67D46E@python.org>	<20070103143726.GP17182@rezo.net>	<459C6B37.8020703@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
	<20070104095500.GK17182@rezo.net>
Message-ID: <459CD6F5.2030000@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>

Fil wrote:
>>> tried to modify the list options thu the web ui and got
>>>
>>> SQLError: (OperationalError) attempt to write a readonly database 'UPDATE
>>> "List data" SET bounce_processing=? WHERE "Listdata".list_id = ?' [0, 2]
>> Who and what is the owner and permission of data/mailman.db.
> 
> fil at infora:~$ ls -al /usr/local/mailman22/data/
> total 24
> drwxrwsr-x  2 root    mailman 4096 2007-01-03 15:38 .
> drwxrwsr-x 21 mailman mailman 4096 2007-01-03 15:02 ..
> -rw-r--r--  1 root    mailman 9216 2007-01-03 15:38 mailman.db
> -rw-rw----  1 mailman mailman    6 2007-01-03 15:33 master-qrunner.pid
> 
> so i guess it was the same persmission problem I had on logs/*

logs and data and other writable directiory and files should be owned by 
mailman.  We should be able to check them with bin/check_perms.
> 
> 
>> Are you accessing web ui via wsgi (HTTPRunner) or classic cgi?
> 
> wsgi on localhost
> 

Group permission problems should be going away in wsgi and LMTP environment.

> -- Fil
> 


-- 
Tokio Kikuchi, tkikuchi@ is.kochi-u.ac.jp
http://weather.is.kochi-u.ac.jp/


From fil at rezo.net  Thu Jan  4 11:36:12 2007
From: fil at rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 11:36:12 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pickles begone
In-Reply-To: <459CD6F5.2030000@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
References: <C1BAD6F4.10C36%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<881F917E-9BC8-4707-8758-7388D5A6E900@python.org>
	<20070102174003.GI17182@rezo.net>
	<DFA59B44-DE0A-4072-B6A1-BB6C2C67D46E@python.org>
	<20070103143726.GP17182@rezo.net>
	<459C6B37.8020703@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
	<20070104095500.GK17182@rezo.net>
	<459CD6F5.2030000@is.kochi-u.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <20070104103611.GM17182@rezo.net>

> logs and data and other writable directiory and files should be owned by 
> mailman.  We should be able to check them with bin/check_perms.

Yep, it works. I thought make install would have set the permissions correctly 

-- Fil


From barry at python.org  Thu Jan  4 18:05:05 2007
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 12:05:05 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pickles begone
In-Reply-To: <20070103143726.GP17182@rezo.net>
References: <C1BAD6F4.10C36%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<881F917E-9BC8-4707-8758-7388D5A6E900@python.org>
	<20070102174003.GI17182@rezo.net>
	<DFA59B44-DE0A-4072-B6A1-BB6C2C67D46E@python.org>
	<20070103143726.GP17182@rezo.net>
Message-ID: <932FC4EA-104C-4883-A1CD-2DEA2F10C716@python.org>

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On Jan 3, 2007, at 9:37 AM, Fil wrote:

>>> How do I fetch the dev branch, what set of commands do I use to  
>>> install
>>> it and migrate a few lists. Nothing fancy, but precise urls and  
>>> commands.
>>
>> Take a look at
>>
>> http://wiki.list.org/x/ogI
>>
>> and let me know what you think.

Fil, thanks for taking a look.
> OK; I was able to follow the instructions to the point of doing  
> configure;
> make; make install. Here are my first glance/field notes:
>
> I had to tweak permisions on logs/* to be able to launch bin/ 
> mailmanctl
> start, as they had been created with g-w (the logs/ dir is  
> correctly g+sxw)

I didn't notice this before because my shell umask was already set to  
002, but if yours is set to e.g. 022, you'll get this problem.  I'm  
adding an explicit "os.umask(2)" to the Mailman initialization stuff  
so that by default everything will be group writable.  This fixes the  
log file permissions.

I'm not committing this change yet though because it doesn't solve  
the mailman.db permissions.  My guess is that somewhere in the  
SQLAlchemy, PySQLite, SQLite stack, the permissions or umask are  
getting forced.  I just need to figure out the right way to tell SA  
how to set the permissions when using the SQLite engine.

I'd also like to review and eliminate as many other umask setting  
stuff in Mailman as possible.  Ideally, we'd set the umask in  
initialize() and only if we need something other than 002 would we do  
another (temporary) umask.

> then i was able to create a list by using bin/newlist; it did create
> a directory in lists/listname at server/  (empty directory)

Yep it still does this because this is where it will store things  
like list-specific templates and such.  It may eventually go away,  
but for now it should be fine to exist and be empty.
> I found a sqlite db in data/mailman.db  (I understand that to use a  
> MySQL db
> I just need to create it and change the SQLAlchemy variable to  
> reflect this
> db??)

Should be, although I haven't tried it.  Once the SQLite engine works  
well enough I definitely plan on trying MySQL at least.

> the web server launched ok on port 2580 (I guess I'll have to  
> ProxyPass to
> it from apache, which is fine).

Yep, there are comments in Defaults.py about this.  We'll get this  
into the documentation asap.  One question I have is whether we  
should make this the /only/ (or only supported) way to run MM2.2?

> It broke however when I tried to connect to it (put the list admin  
> passwd,
> and got :
>          UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xe9  
> in position 207: ordinal not in range(128)
>
> maybe because I chose "french" as default language (I then switched to
> english, created another list, and got to the web ui)

Yikes.  The other thing I really want to do is to get our unicode  
story cleaned up.  Again, ideally, we'd convert all strings to and  
from their encodings at the edges of the system and only deal  
internally with unicode.  That's one reason why I'm using unicode  
columns in the SA tables.  I will try to reproduce this.

> tried to modify the list options thu the web ui and got
>
> SQLError: (OperationalError) attempt to write a readonly database  
> 'UPDATE
> "List data" SET bounce_processing=? WHERE "Listdata".list_id  
> = ?' [0, 2]

This will happen if the permissions on data/mailman.db are  
incorrect.  Try ensuring group write on that file and try again.

> I haven't tried yet to convert an older list to the new system.

Cool, again, your testing is much appreciated!
- -Barry

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From barry at python.org  Fri Jan  5 07:50:02 2007
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 01:50:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pickles begone
In-Reply-To: <20070103143726.GP17182@rezo.net>
References: <C1BAD6F4.10C36%jwblist3@olympus.net>
	<881F917E-9BC8-4707-8758-7388D5A6E900@python.org>
	<20070102174003.GI17182@rezo.net>
	<DFA59B44-DE0A-4072-B6A1-BB6C2C67D46E@python.org>
	<20070103143726.GP17182@rezo.net>
Message-ID: <2B30A059-DA22-4F2F-821C-9CF17A74D8C4@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jan 3, 2007, at 9:37 AM, Fil wrote:

> I had to tweak permisions on logs/* to be able to launch bin/ 
> mailmanctl
> start, as they had been created with g-w (the logs/ dir is  
> correctly g+sxw)

I think I solved the permission problems in r8131.  check_perms will  
complain more loudly than it should but everything else ought to work  
correctly now.  Working around SQLite's, er, feature of ignoring  
umask was fun.

> It broke however when I tried to connect to it (put the list admin  
> passwd,
> and got :
>          UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xe9  
> in position 207: ordinal not in range(128)
>
> maybe because I chose "french" as default language (I then switched to
> english, created another list, and got to the web ui)

I'll try to take a look at this at some point, but I think there's  
still a lot of unicode cleaning up to do.  This may be shallow  
though; we'll see.

Feel free to keep poking at it, and thanks! :)

- -Barry

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From barry at python.org  Sat Jan  6 06:20:06 2007
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 00:20:06 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-checkins] SF.net SVN: mailman:
	[8135] trunk/mailman/Mailman/database/listdata.py
In-Reply-To: <E1H33k0-0005Bb-1v@sc8-pr-svn1.sourceforge.net>
References: <E1H33k0-0005Bb-1v@sc8-pr-svn1.sourceforge.net>
Message-ID: <0D2F1A02-ACC3-4D40-B916-6326B6E6E381@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Excellent, thanks!  I'm /really/ going to have to figure out schema  
migration soon. ;)
- -Barry

On Jan 6, 2007, at 12:05 AM, tkikuchi at users.sourceforge.net wrote:

> Revision: 8135
>           http://svn.sourceforge.net/mailman/?rev=8135&view=rev
> Author:   tkikuchi
> Date:     2007-01-05 21:05:11 -0800 (Fri, 05 Jan 2007)
>
> Log Message:
> -----------
> Add post_id in list data schema.
>
> Modified Paths:
> --------------
>     trunk/mailman/Mailman/database/listdata.py
>
> Modified: trunk/mailman/Mailman/database/listdata.py
> ===================================================================
> --- trunk/mailman/Mailman/database/listdata.py	2007-01-05 22:01:43  
> UTC (rev 8134)
> +++ trunk/mailman/Mailman/database/listdata.py	2007-01-06 05:05:11  
> UTC (rev 8135)
> @@ -122,6 +122,7 @@
>          Column('pass_mime_types',                                
> PickleType),
>          Column('password',                                       
> Unicode),
>          Column('personalize',                                    
> Integer),
> +        Column('post_id',                                        
> Integer),
>          Column('preferred_language',                             
> Unicode),
>          Column('private_roster',                                 
> Boolean),
>          Column('real_name',                                      
> Unicode),
>
>
> This was sent by the SourceForge.net collaborative development  
> platform, the world's largest Open Source development site.
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-checkins mailing list
> Mailman-checkins at python.org
> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman- 
> checkins/barry%40python.org
>

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From mail at joachim-breitner.de  Mon Jan 22 22:42:11 2007
From: mail at joachim-breitner.de (Joachim Breitner)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:42:11 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Self-Approve Link in Member-Only error messages
Message-ID: <1169502131.5545.5.camel@otto.ehbuehl.net>

Hello,

a lot of mailing lists have posting only available to members just to
prevent spam. For these lists there should be an option that adds a link
to the ?Your message is held...? notification that will allow the
message to go through, just like the link to delete it, or the check in
the subscription handshake. This would reduce work for the list
administrator and be more friendly to the casual poster.

In http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=407530 it was argued
that spammers would then soon start to learn to ?click? this link. I
disagree though that this feature will indeed open the gates to
spammers: If they figure out how to activate a link in a confirmation
message, they will figure out how to subscribe anyways. 

Alternatively, a message to a members-only mailing list could
automatically trigger a subscribe challenge that, if acted upon, not
only subscribes the sender, but also approves the held-back message.

What do you think?

Greetings,
Joachim

-- 
Joachim "nomeata" Breitner
  mail: mail at joachim-breitner.de | ICQ# 74513189 | GPG-Key: 4743206C
  JID: joachimbreitner at amessage.de | http://www.joachim-breitner.de/
  Debian Developer: nomeata at debian.org

From iane at sussex.ac.uk  Tue Jan 23 12:26:42 2007
From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 11:26:42 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Self-Approve Link in Member-Only error
 messages
In-Reply-To: <1169502131.5545.5.camel@otto.ehbuehl.net>
References: <1169502131.5545.5.camel@otto.ehbuehl.net>
Message-ID: <BA05F2C2D68C878187C39C61@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>



--On 22 January 2007 22:42:11 +0100 Joachim Breitner 
<mail at joachim-breitner.de> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> a lot of mailing lists have posting only available to members just to
> prevent spam. For these lists there should be an option that adds a link
> to the ?Your message is held...? notification that will allow the
> message to go through, just like the link to delete it, or the check in
> the subscription handshake. This would reduce work for the list
> administrator and be more friendly to the casual poster.
>
> In http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=407530 it was argued
> that spammers would then soon start to learn to ?click? this link. I
> disagree though that this feature will indeed open the gates to
> spammers: If they figure out how to activate a link in a confirmation
> message, they will figure out how to subscribe anyways.
>
> Alternatively, a message to a members-only mailing list could
> automatically trigger a subscribe challenge that, if acted upon, not
> only subscribes the sender, but also approves the held-back message.
>
> What do you think?
>

Well, some people may think this is useful. It should be possible for a 
list owner or a site owner to disable it, though.

-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex

From dan at thecsl.org  Thu Jan 25 02:13:10 2007
From: dan at thecsl.org (Dan MacNeil)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 20:13:10 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Self-Approve Link in Member-Only error
	messages
In-Reply-To: <1169502131.5545.5.camel@otto.ehbuehl.net>
References: <1169502131.5545.5.camel@otto.ehbuehl.net>
Message-ID: <45B80426.8030903@thecsl.org>

Joachim Breitner wrote:
> Alternatively, a message to a members-only mailing list could
> automatically trigger a subscribe challenge that, if acted upon, not
> only subscribes the sender, but also approves the held-back message.

I often miss stuff but near as I can tell this would be a bad thing. Joe
Job/backscatter wise.

Zombie soliders 1-n send email on behalf of joe at job.com to list-
L at lists.foo.org.

Worst case, list-L sends N subscribe challenges to joe.

Likely case, Joe gets a (1) challenge and clicks "this is spam", thefore
making it harder for nancy at job.com to get her list emails.

Best case, Joe gets (1) subscribe challenge and ignores it.

From dan at thecsl.org  Thu Jan 25 13:51:40 2007
From: dan at thecsl.org (Dan MacNeil)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:51:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Self-Approve Link in Member-Only
	error	messages
In-Reply-To: <1169718532.4119.2.camel@otto.ehbuehl.net>
References: <1169502131.5545.5.camel@otto.ehbuehl.net>	
	<45B80426.8030903@thecsl.org>
	<1169718532.4119.2.camel@otto.ehbuehl.net>
Message-ID: <45B8A7DC.7020600@thecsl.org>

> Am Mittwoch, den 24.01.2007, 20:13 -0500 schrieb Dan MacNeil:
>> Joachim Breitner wrote:
>>> Alternatively, a message to a members-only mailing list could
>>> automatically trigger a subscribe challenge that, if acted upon, not
>>> only subscribes the sender, but also approves the held-back message.

Dan writes:
>> I often miss stuff but near as I can tell this would be a bad thing. Joe
>> Job/backscatter wise.

[examples snipped]

> Joachim writes:
> Currently, Joe would get N messages telling him that he is not
> subscribed. If he marks these as spam we get the same result, don?t we?
> Thus adding a ?self-approve mail? link or a ?subscribe? link to this
> message this scenario is not any more likely.

Is this is true if the moderator has  clicked "Discard" rather than
"Hold" or "Reject" ?

If not, I'd argue the current setup is imperfect.



From mail at joachim-breitner.de  Thu Jan 25 10:48:52 2007
From: mail at joachim-breitner.de (Joachim Breitner)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:48:52 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Self-Approve Link in Member-Only
	error	messages
In-Reply-To: <45B80426.8030903@thecsl.org>
References: <1169502131.5545.5.camel@otto.ehbuehl.net>
	<45B80426.8030903@thecsl.org>
Message-ID: <1169718532.4119.2.camel@otto.ehbuehl.net>

Hi,

Am Mittwoch, den 24.01.2007, 20:13 -0500 schrieb Dan MacNeil:
> Joachim Breitner wrote:
> > Alternatively, a message to a members-only mailing list could
> > automatically trigger a subscribe challenge that, if acted upon, not
> > only subscribes the sender, but also approves the held-back message.
> 
> I often miss stuff but near as I can tell this would be a bad thing. Joe
> Job/backscatter wise.
> 
> Zombie soliders 1-n send email on behalf of joe at job.com to list-
> L at lists.foo.org.
> 
> Worst case, list-L sends N subscribe challenges to joe.
> 
> Likely case, Joe gets a (1) challenge and clicks "this is spam", thefore
> making it harder for nancy at job.com to get her list emails.
> 
> Best case, Joe gets (1) subscribe challenge and ignores it.

Currently, Joe would get N messages telling him that he is not
subscribed. If he marks these as spam we get the same result, don?t we?
Thus adding a ?self-approve mail? link or a ?subscribe? link to this
message this scenario is not any more likely.

Greetings,
Joachim

-- 
Joachim "nomeata" Breitner
  mail: mail at joachim-breitner.de | ICQ# 74513189 | GPG-Key: 4743206C
  JID: joachimbreitner at amessage.de | http://www.joachim-breitner.de/
  Debian Developer: nomeata at debian.org

From iane at sussex.ac.uk  Mon Jan 29 11:40:56 2007
From: iane at sussex.ac.uk (Ian Eiloart)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:40:56 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Self-Approve Link in
 Member-Only	error	messages
In-Reply-To: <1169718532.4119.2.camel@otto.ehbuehl.net>
References: <1169502131.5545.5.camel@otto.ehbuehl.net>
	<45B80426.8030903@thecsl.org>
	<1169718532.4119.2.camel@otto.ehbuehl.net>
Message-ID: <D79EA167CEC387E6D2BF9846@lewes.staff.uscs.susx.ac.uk>



--On 25 January 2007 10:48:52 +0100 Joachim Breitner 
<mail at joachim-breitner.de> wrote:

>
> Currently, Joe would get N messages telling him that he is not
> subscribed. If he marks these as spam we get the same result, don?t we?
> Thus adding a ?self-approve mail? link or a ?subscribe? link to
> this message this scenario is not any more likely.

Only if list owners are stupid enough to use the "reject" feature. I advise 
all my list owners to use "discard and notify" instead. I'd like to have 
proper SMTP time rejection, but - failing that - the notifications of 
discarded messages should include at least the sender email address, so 
that something useful can be done with false positives.

> Greetings,
> Joachim



-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex