[Mailman-Developers] mailman-developers@python.org

[moron]

On January 29, 2004 11:19 pm, Chuq Von Rospach wrote:
> Lots of research with end-users, studying their needs and researching
> the places that they struggle using these systems, and having designed
> and built a number of list servers over the years that are used by a
> wide range of users, not all of them geeks.

Howdy.  Again, how does including an extra header help the end user 
experience?  The original complaint was due to AOL being bass ackwards and 
somehow feeling that an email address in an arbitrary header was more 
"private" than the To field (which of course it is not).   In this scenario, 
the "customization" was simply to add the sender address back into the 
message which is hardly making the end experience any better (it should 
already be in something like "envelope-to" anyway).

How about something more concrete as to why this is such a great feature for 
something beyond a spam list? (I am *not* suggesting you are a spammer, just 
that customization would seem to be only really important for commercial 
mailouts which generally fall under the spam-brella).  

> different argument. you don't need that user data to unsubscribe from a
> usenet group.You do to unsubscribe from a list server.

The problem is AOL though, not Mailman.  Solution?  Switch to a real provider 
that uses RFC compliant software.  And be vocal as to why you are leaving.

> Not from the point of view we're talking about here, which is giving
> the user the info they need to operate the list properly.

The information they need is that AOL is running a broken SMTP server, no?

> With the exception of network traffic, it's actually pretty trivial
> stuff. No, I can't explain how I know, but I've been there, done that.
> The only huge cost is the network bandwidth change, which is at least
> 2X, and can be 5X, depending on your old configurations.

Ok though I have not seen evidence of this using Exim.  But a 2 to 5 times 
increase in bandwidth use is a lot.  The majority of traffic in the community 
server I look after at the moment is due to mail and we would definitely feel 
that.

> > Multiply that by a busy list (some of the ones I look
> > over are up to 150 - 200 a day sometimes) and it is still significant,
> > especially if binaries are involved.
> um, heh. Busy. (grin)

Well, it depends on membership of course and the total number of lists.  It's 
big enough for me to look after.

=)

But a 60,000+ member list on Mailman would suck due to the administration 
interface anyway.  

> >  I also wonder what effect it will have
> > on archiving
>
> none.

Are you sure of that?  I thought that Hypermail based its threading on message 
IDs which would be different in this case leading to far larger arrays and 
such to keep track of what article was connected to what.  I could see this 
having an exponential effect on the length to regenerate archives and for 
building indexes.  That could be a LOT of  RAM usage.  Any Hypermail gurus 
want to comment?  Am I flapping in the wind on this one?  

> Um, of course, the fact that users want html email is irrelevant. Lots
> of studies show they prefer the look of HTML to text, actually. Except
> in the more hard-core geek crews, but we aren't writing stuff here JUST
> for people who run mutt, right?

Hmm.  I have yet to see a case where HTML has helped readability and folks 
that use it seem to solely do so because it is there not because they are 
trying to impart meaning.  Some people like using their cell phones in 
theatres but that doesn't make it a postive feature.  When using webmail 
interfaces for example no one misses it that I have ever noticed.  As to the 
effect of HTML, even ignoring the obvious security and privacy nightmare it 
results in you still having horrific rendering problems depending on the 
exact path the message takes from sending client to viewing client.  Nothing 
like a missing table tag to make your message unviewable.  

> chuq (guess what I do for a living?)

Debate with me?

=)

Cheers

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