From r.barrett at openinfo.co.uk Tue Jul 1 17:15:42 2003 From: r.barrett at openinfo.co.uk (Richard Barrett) Date: Tue Jul 1 11:18:24 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] [bug in mm2.1] mailmanctl doesn't set groups. Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030701160031.04c960a0@ext-proxy.ftel.co.uk> At 13:24 01/07/2003, Jonas Meurer wrote: >*** PGP Signature Status: unknown >*** Signer: Unknown, Key ID xE25F2102 >*** Signed: 01/07/2003 13:24:59 >*** Verified: 01/07/2003 15:13:06 >*** BEGIN PGP VERIFIED MESSAGE *** > > >hello, >the mailmanctl script doesn't set groups. >so when i run mailmanctl as root, i become list:list but still have the >groups that root has. that's a grave security bug. I think not. I believe you are mistaking the meaning of the output from the id command you are running. The group affiliations of the process do not mean that the uid in the output has privileges of those groups. Just try getting the code in the ArchRunner.py to modify a file owned by root with no write privileges for other when mailmanctl has ben started by root to see what I mean. The process will only have the privileges associated with the uid/euid and gid/egid. >a possible (and working) patch is attached. > > >bye > mejo > >ps: since the bug-reporting system at sourceforge doesn't work atm, i >report the bug to the two mailman lists. > >-- >Efficiency and progess is ours one more >Now that we have the Neutron bomb >It's nice and quick and clean and gets things done >Kill kill kill kill kill the poor tonight > > > mailmanctl.patch > > > >*** END PGP VERIFIED MESSAGE *** > >, > >List-Archive: >List-Post: >List-Help: >List-Subscribe: , > >Sender: mailman-users-bounces+r.barrett=openinfo.co.uk@python.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard Barrett http://www.openinfo.co.uk From r.barrett at openinfo.co.uk Tue Jul 1 19:11:21 2003 From: r.barrett at openinfo.co.uk (Richard Barrett) Date: Tue Jul 1 13:14:44 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] [bug in mm2.1] mailmanctl doesn't set groups. Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030701175732.044b0bb8@ext-proxy.ftel.co.uk> At 16:51 01/07/2003, Jonas Meurer wrote: >*** PGP Signature Status: unknown >*** Signer: Unknown, Key ID xE25F2102 >*** Signed: 01/07/2003 16:51:57 >*** Verified: 01/07/2003 17:56:42 >*** BEGIN PGP VERIFIED MESSAGE *** > >On 01/07/2003 Richard Barrett wrote: > > >the mailmanctl script doesn't set groups. > > >so when i run mailmanctl as root, i become list:list but still have the > > >groups that root has. that's a grave security bug. > > > > I think not. I believe you are mistaking the meaning of the output from > the > > id command you are running. The group affiliations of the process do not > > mean that the uid in the output has privileges of those groups. Just try > > getting the code in the ArchRunner.py to modify a file owned by root with > > no write privileges for other when mailmanctl has ben started by root to > > see what I mean. The process will only have the privileges associated with > > the uid/euid and gid/egid. > >ok, i believe that, You should not have because your first assessment looks to be correct. I tried it for real and found you were right. At a quick glance, it appears as though your proposed bug fix is the only convenient way of resolving using Python. Try again to put the fix into sourceforge bug collector for MM. >but it's still a bug. add user list (running >mailman) to a group (i.e. testgroup), and try to modify a file owned >by someone.testgroup with write privileges only for group (and user if >you want). >that's exactly why i found that bug. the user (list) that runs my external >archiver (lurker) has to be in group lurker. > >bye > mejo > >ps: i'm not subscribed to mailman-developers > >-- >Efficiency and progess is ours one more >Now that we have the Neutron bomb >It's nice and quick and clean and gets things done >Kill kill kill kill kill the poor tonight > > >*** END PGP VERIFIED MESSAGE *** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard Barrett http://www.openinfo.co.uk From Roger at compsoc.man.ac.uk Wed Jul 2 01:35:49 2003 From: Roger at compsoc.man.ac.uk (Roger Lynn) Date: Tue Jul 1 19:35:57 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] How hard would it be... Message-ID: <3F021AD5.9020102@compsoc.man.ac.uk> On Wed 25 Jun 2003 at 23:21, Marty Galyean wrote: > To put a button next to each message in the archives (labeled 'get'?) > that when clicked causes MM to send that message to the logged in > archive user as an email just as if it had been sent to them in > non-digest mode? > > This would be a good way for people who have 'no-mail' or 'digest' set > to reply occasionally to specific posts. And also to reply to a message > the user has already deleted locally. It would be really nice if this could also somehow work to enable non-subscribers browsing the archives to reply to specific posts (as I am doing now). I've no idea how this could be done though. The mailto: link in the archived messages includes a message-id, which I assume is to enable threading to work properly when that message is replied to. Unfortunately it contains the message-id of the previous message, ie the one the message being read is in reply to, so this can't work. It appears to be intended to be used as the In-Reply-To header for the new message, which would be incorrect, unless I have misunderstood the reason for it being there (which is quite likely). Roger From john at hdnet.org Wed Jul 2 13:29:18 2003 From: john at hdnet.org (John Kromodimedjo) Date: Wed Jul 2 01:29:12 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Developers in Thailand?? Message-ID: <200307020528.h625Sup08911@scan.ji-net.com> Hi all, Does anyone out there know somebody in Thailand that is developing in Mailman? Is it possible to use MySQL as Mailman main database? Thanks a million. John _________________________ John Kromodimedjo ICT Programme Officer Health and Development Networks Chiang Mai, Thailand From barry at python.org Thu Jul 3 03:35:38 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Wed Jul 2 22:35:39 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman Developers in Thailand?? In-Reply-To: <200307020528.h625Sup08911@scan.ji-net.com> References: <200307020528.h625Sup08911@scan.ji-net.com> Message-ID: <1057199698.13703.18.camel@anthem> On Wed, 2003-07-02 at 01:29, John Kromodimedjo wrote: > Does anyone out there know somebody in Thailand that is developing in > Mailman? Nope, but I'd love a Thai translation! Can you volunteer? > Is it possible to use MySQL as Mailman main database? Yes, although not out of the box. -Barry From barry at python.org Thu Jul 3 03:42:26 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Wed Jul 2 22:42:27 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] How hard would it be... In-Reply-To: <3F021AD5.9020102@compsoc.man.ac.uk> References: <3F021AD5.9020102@compsoc.man.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1057200108.13703.26.camel@anthem> On Tue, 2003-07-01 at 19:35, Roger Lynn wrote: > ld be really nice if this could also somehow work to enable > non-subscribers browsing the archives to reply to specific posts (as I am > doing now). I've no idea how this could be done though. > > The mailto: link in the archived messages includes a message-id, which I > assume is to enable threading to work properly when that message is replied > to. Unfortunately it contains the message-id of the previous message, ie the > one the message being read is in reply to, so this can't work. It appears to > be intended to be used as the In-Reply-To header for the new message, which > would be incorrect, unless I have misunderstood the reason for it being > there (which is quite likely). I'd love to see something like this, although I admit that hacking new features into Pipermail is very low on my list of priorities. I (still) encourage someone in the community stepping forward to "own" Pipermail and either make improvements, or investigate replacements using Zest and ArchNG ideas. For Mailman 3, I'm open to almost any option for the archiver component. -Barry From kmccann at bellanet.org Thu Jul 3 13:49:19 2003 From: kmccann at bellanet.org (Kevin McCann) Date: Thu Jul 3 08:49:20 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MySQL Support? Do tell! Message-ID: <1057236526.23123.542.camel@localhost.localdomain> Barry, you mentioned that Mailman can work with MySQL, just not "out of the box." Can you expound on this? Or can anyone else? I'm about to do a lot of R&D in this area and would like to tap into what other people know so far. Are we talking about data synching here, or is there a way to get Mailman to use MySQL to store its list config and membership data *instead* of these #&%^@! pickle files? If someone can paint me a picture I'd greatly appreciate it. Mailman + MySQL = :-) Best, Kevin From barry at python.org Thu Jul 3 14:26:09 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu Jul 3 09:26:11 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MySQL Support? Do tell! In-Reply-To: <1057236526.23123.542.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1057236526.23123.542.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1057238734.14001.63.camel@anthem> On Thu, 2003-07-03 at 08:48, Kevin McCann wrote: > Barry, you mentioned that Mailman can work with MySQL, just not "out of > the box." Can you expound on this? Or can anyone else? I'm about to do > a lot of R&D in this area and would like to tap into what other people > know so far. > > Are we talking about data synching here, or is there a way to get > Mailman to use MySQL to store its list config and membership data > *instead* of these #&%^@! pickle files? In MM2.1, all access to membership information is done through an interface, specified in MemberAdaptor.py. There's only one official implementation of this interface, the OldStyleMemberAdaptor.py that uses data attributes on the MailList object to store member information. Now, the idea is that you could write a different adaptor, to store and access the information in any other database. I've written a proof-of-concept for storing the member data in a BerkeleyDB. You need to use the MailList extension mechanism to get the write adaptor implementation associated with the MailList, but that all works. That's what I meant by "not out of the box". I claim it isn't a lot of work to write a MySQL backend -- it certainly wasn't too hard to write a BerkeleyDB backend. In MM3 (which I've begun to work on in my spare time), there will be several improvements in this regard. First, we won't tie the member database to MailList objects -- they'll be a layer of abstraction between them so we can fix the list-centric view of membership into a user-centric view (i.e. one login to rule them all :). Second, there will be additional interfaces (actually, I intend to define interfaces for all pluggable components). For example, the list configuration data will be accessed through an interface so even it can be stored in a database. Also, I intend to define the member interface so that some operations can be more efficiently performed in the implementation, rather than in the application. E.g. when the admindb page alphabetizes and chunks the member listing, IWBNI the member database could do something more efficient than just returning a container with every list member, so admindb could throw away 90% of them. FWIW, I have some working MM3 code, although I'm not checking stuff into the public cvs unti I have more of the directory layout and basic architecture working. It's just soooo much more convenient to have direct access to the CVS repository at this stage. I hope to have something reviewable soon, depending as always, on my available free time. If you want to drool though, I have working ZPT+Twisted web, backed by BerkeleyDB lists and member databases. It's raw and I can't send messages yet, but I think it's going to be really cool. :) -Barry From charlie at begeistert.org Thu Jul 3 20:47:00 2003 From: charlie at begeistert.org (Charlie Clark) Date: Thu Jul 3 13:44:31 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MySQL Support? Do tell! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030703194700.4857.32@wonderland.1057217074.fake> On 2003-07-03 at 18:02:33 [+0200], mailman-developers-request@python.org wrote: > Barry, you mentioned that Mailman can work with MySQL, just not "out of > the box." Can you expound on this? Or can anyone else? I'm about to do > a lot of R&D in this area and would like to tap into what other people > know so far. > > Are we talking about data synching here, or is there a way to get Mailman > to use MySQL to store its list config and membership data > *instead* of these #&%^@! pickle files? > > If someone can paint me a picture I'd greatly appreciate it. > > Mailman + MySQL = :-) Barry's explanation is pretty good but I think the integration with an ACID RDBMS is a little trickier than with BerkeleyDB and I think MySQL would not be a good choice for this. We have recently done our own RDBMS integration for a client and there are lots of pitfalls along the way, as Barry has hinted. Charlie From barry at python.org Thu Jul 3 19:13:46 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu Jul 3 14:13:48 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] MySQL Support? Do tell! In-Reply-To: <20030703194700.4857.32@wonderland.1057217074.fake> References: <20030703194700.4857.32@wonderland.1057217074.fake> Message-ID: <1057255992.15443.45.camel@yyz> On Thu, 2003-07-03 at 13:47, Charlie Clark wrote: > Barry's explanation is pretty good but I think the integration with an ACID > RDBMS is a little trickier than with BerkeleyDB and I think MySQL would not > be a good choice for this. We have recently done our own RDBMS integration > for a client and there are lots of pitfalls along the way, as Barry has > hinted. Well, Berkeley's kind of acidic, right? :) But yes, my goal for Mailman 3 is to remove as many of these pitfalls as we possibly can. -Barry From chuqui at plaidworks.com Mon Jul 7 23:49:45 2003 From: chuqui at plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Tue Jul 8 01:50:18 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Possible yahoogroups problem. Message-ID: well, I was promised more than once that yahoo security was going to contact me, and nobody ever did. Ohwell. here's the issue: it looks to me like someone's figured out Yahoo's confirmation protocol. First, we got (edited for brevity): > From: Yahoo! Groups > owner=lists.apple.com@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:13:36 AM US/Pacific > To: mailman-owner@lists.apple.com > Subject: Please confirm your request to join associated_secretarial > Reply-To: > confirm-s2-6n1LGtpWyFrKWHIUtg2mjc8G=Ss-mailman- > owner=lists.apple.com@yahoogroups.com > > Hello mailman-owner@lists.apple.com, > > We have received your request to join the associated_secretarial > group hosted by Yahoo! Groups, a free, easy-to-use community service. > > 1) Go to the Yahoo! Groups site by clicking on this link: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/i?i=6n1LGtpWyFrKWHIUtg2mjc8G-Ss&e=mailman- > owner%40lists%2Eapple%2Ecom obviously, our list server never requested to join the list, but if that were it, I'd have simply thrown this out and ignored it with all of the other spam and stuff like this. But then shortly thereafter, we got... > From: associated_secretarial Moderator > > Date: Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:15:33 AM US/Pacific > To: mailman-owner@lists.apple.com > Subject: Welcome to associated_secretarial > > > Hello, > > Welcome to the From the Eagle's Nest, a newsletter designed to help > you and your business to future successes. Great tips for those just > getting started and for established businesses. "Starting Out" , > "Cold Call Strategy", "Taping Tips" and "Working from Home" are just > some of the articles to look out for. The bi-weekly series addresses > the newer communications and technologies available for those who want > to "move with the times". With a genuine desire to help small > business, this newsletter is one you'll be glad you have in your > "Better Business Arsenal". > We unsubscribed immediately, of course, but the question is, how did that subscription get confirmed? I didn't do it. My associated didn't. So I'm worried that someone's figured out how to circumvent yahoo's confirmation process. I wanted to bring this up with Yahoo, but they evidently weren't interested. (and the reason I'm posting this to mailman-developers: just a general question, since I haven't had time to look it up myself: does the mailman confirmation process use an algorithm that could potentially be reverse engineered? If it happened to Yahoo, it could happen to Mailman. Even if it didn't happen to Yahoo, it could happen to other services if their confirmations can be predicted in some way. Anyone want to hazard a reason why it might NOT be a breach of yahoo's algorithm here? I'm just a bit worried that we're seeing a new phase where spammers have figured out how to get around these protections; if so, it also opens up mailing lists to be a new form of guided missile in attacks on people, something I'd rather avoid, thank you...) From barry at python.org Tue Jul 8 13:36:38 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Tue Jul 8 08:36:39 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Possible yahoogroups problem. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1057667764.1546.34.camel@anthem> On Tue, 2003-07-08 at 01:49, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > So I'm worried that someone's figured out how to circumvent yahoo's > confirmation process. I wanted to bring this up with Yahoo, but they > evidently weren't interested. Okay, so /that/ sucks. > (and the reason I'm posting this to mailman-developers: just a general > question, since I haven't had time to look it up myself: does the > mailman confirmation process use an algorithm that could potentially be > reverse engineered? If it happened to Yahoo, it could happen to > Mailman. Even if it didn't happen to Yahoo, it could happen to other > services if their confirmations can be predicted in some way. Short of a brute-force attack, I think it would be difficult. In the tradition of openness (and because it's all in the source anyway, as opposed to Yahoo's code -- yay for us :), here's what we do: When someone's subscription is held for approval, we generate the unique cookie by combining three pieces of information, and then sha hexdigesting the string representation of that data. If an attacker could figure out the string rep, they could hash it themselves and guess the cookie. The data we use: - the str() of the output of random.random() - the str() of the server's current time - the str() of the "content" and we concatenate these three strings together before hashing them. In the case of a subscription request, the content is a UserDesc instance, which has a repr like: (apologies for any line split) I'd think that because three of the UserDesc components come directly from the subscribee, it would be very difficult to guess the UserDesc repr, /aside/ from the difficulty of guessing the random float and timestamp. Given sha's hash security, I'd be inclined to think we're safe . An attacker could brute-force it, but I suspect you'd succumb to denial of service either in Mailman or in upstream tools long before the confirmation cookie was cracked. But maybe I'm missing an obvious hole, either in the cookie generation or somewhere else in the confirmation process. > Anyone want to hazard a reason why it might NOT be a breach of yahoo's > algorithm here? I'm just a bit worried that we're seeing a new phase > where spammers have figured out how to get around these protections; if > so, it also opens up mailing lists to be a new form of guided missile > in attacks on people, something I'd rather avoid, thank you...) BTW, is there something we can do to prevent Mailman addresses from getting subscribed to Yahoo! or other listservs? I'd rather not hardcode in Yahoo! brain damage, so I'm looking for a more principled approach. -Barry From Nigel.Metheringham at dev.InTechnology.co.uk Tue Jul 8 13:54:29 2003 From: Nigel.Metheringham at dev.InTechnology.co.uk (Nigel Metheringham) Date: Tue Jul 8 08:54:30 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Possible yahoogroups problem. In-Reply-To: <1057667764.1546.34.camel@anthem> References: <1057667764.1546.34.camel@anthem> Message-ID: <1057668864.7185.37.camel@angua.localnet> On Tue, 2003-07-08 at 13:36, Barry Warsaw wrote: > I'd think that because three of the UserDesc components come directly > from the subscribee, it would be very difficult to guess the UserDesc > repr, /aside/ from the difficulty of guessing the random float and > timestamp. Since it looks like the attacker in this case generated an initial subscribe request, and then the confirmation, he will have had access to the UserDesc data - after all its all from data he sent to them in the subscribe request. So it comes down to how good is the output of random.random() since the receipt time could be guessed within a few minutes giving a small number of hundreds of seconds to work with. Which means that effectively the effort to break the subscription cookie is 2 magnitudes (from say 100 seconds) greater than the difficulty of just guessing the output of random.random() > Given sha's hash security, I'd be inclined to think we're > safe . sha doesn't buy too much here given that so many components are known. > BTW, is there something we can do to prevent Mailman addresses from > getting subscribed to Yahoo! or other listservs? I'd rather not > hardcode in Yahoo! brain damage, so I'm looking for a more principled > approach. List-* headers? Nigel. -- [ Nigel Metheringham Nigel.Metheringham@InTechnology.co.uk ] [ - Comments in this message are my own and not ITO opinion/policy - ] From chris at apex-internet.com Mon Jul 7 20:48:05 2003 From: chris at apex-internet.com (Chris Szilagyi) Date: Tue Jul 8 09:11:47 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman eating up CPU Message-ID: <200307071948.h67Jm5S14806@mail.apex-internet.com> Hello, I've seen other posts on this problem but have not seen a solution yet. I've got Mailman 2.1 compiled and installed on a Red Hat 7.1 system all up to date. Also I'm using Python 2.2.2 from Red Hat's src rpm. The problem is with the mailman service eating up about 80-95% of the CPU at all times. This box is a test box and is not routing any mail. Has anybody found a solution to this problem??? Thanks for all feedback... -- Chris From jonas at freesources.org Tue Jul 1 15:24:59 2003 From: jonas at freesources.org (Jonas Meurer) Date: Tue Jul 8 09:14:02 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [bug in mm2.1] mailmanctl doesn't set groups. Message-ID: <20030701122459.GB947@freesources.org> Skipped content of type multipart/mixed-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20030701/3bf6ba1c/attachment-0001.bin From jonas at freesources.org Tue Jul 1 18:51:57 2003 From: jonas at freesources.org (Jonas Meurer) Date: Tue Jul 8 09:14:04 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] [bug in mm2.1] mailmanctl doesn't set groups. In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030701160031.04c960a0@ext-proxy.ftel.co.uk> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030701160031.04c960a0@ext-proxy.ftel.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030701155157.GB2009@freesources.org> On 01/07/2003 Richard Barrett wrote: > >the mailmanctl script doesn't set groups. > >so when i run mailmanctl as root, i become list:list but still have the > >groups that root has. that's a grave security bug. > > I think not. I believe you are mistaking the meaning of the output from the > id command you are running. The group affiliations of the process do not > mean that the uid in the output has privileges of those groups. Just try > getting the code in the ArchRunner.py to modify a file owned by root with > no write privileges for other when mailmanctl has ben started by root to > see what I mean. The process will only have the privileges associated with > the uid/euid and gid/egid. ok, i believe that, but it's still a bug. add user list (running mailman) to a group (i.e. testgroup), and try to modify a file owned by someone.testgroup with write privileges only for group (and user if you want). that's exactly why i found that bug. the user (list) that runs my external archiver (lurker) has to be in group lurker. bye mejo ps: i'm not subscribed to mailman-developers -- Efficiency and progess is ours one more Now that we have the Neutron bomb It's nice and quick and clean and gets things done Kill kill kill kill kill the poor tonight -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20030701/16261c25/attachment.bin From jonas at freesources.org Wed Jul 2 15:10:23 2003 From: jonas at freesources.org (Jonas Meurer) Date: Tue Jul 8 09:14:06 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] [bug in mm2.1] mailmanctl doesn't set groups. In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030701175732.044b0bb8@ext-proxy.ftel.co.uk> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030701175732.044b0bb8@ext-proxy.ftel.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030702121022.GB2147@freesources.org> On 01/07/2003 Richard Barrett wrote: > Try again to put the fix into sourceforge bug collector for MM. sorry, still doesn't work. i get an Error: "The requested URL could not be retrieved" (and much more output). bye mejo -- Efficiency and progess is ours one more Now that we have the Neutron bomb It's nice and quick and clean and gets things done Kill kill kill kill kill the poor tonight -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20030702/e06dd3ed/attachment.bin From marco_henriques at yahoo.com.br Mon Jul 7 11:55:14 2003 From: marco_henriques at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Marco=20Henriques?=) Date: Tue Jul 8 09:14:21 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Archive problem Message-ID: <20030707135514.84311.qmail@web40013.mail.yahoo.com> Hi ALL, I'm using Python 2.2.2 and Mailman 2.1 on a NetBSD 1.6 machine. I?m having trouble with Archive. My first message to my list is saved in /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/teste-l/2003-July.txt, the messages are still been send but no are save. And, my index.html file in /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/teste-l/ is empty. I see in my error log file the lines below: Jul 07 09:42:52 2003 (23058) Uncaught runner exception: unsupported format character '(' (0x28) at index 2 Jul 07 09:42:52 2003 (23058) Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 105, in _oneloop self._onefile(msg, msgdata) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 155, in _onefile keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 73, in _dispose mlist.ArchiveMail(msg) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 207, in ArchiveMail h.close() File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 306, in close self.write_TOC() File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 1008, in write_TOC toc.write(self.html_TOC()) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 701, in html_TOC accum.append(self.html_TOC_entry(a)) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 732, in html_TOC_entry textlink = templ % { File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 118, in sizeof out = _(' %(size)i bytes ') File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/i18n.py", line 78, in _ return _translation.gettext(s) % dict ValueError: unsupported format character '(' (0x28) at index 2 Jul 07 09:42:52 2003 (23058) SHUNTING: 1057581770.414556+d6c1ae52a492b811c605bafb6607164b0261267e Someone could help me ?!? Cheers, Marco _______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mais espa?o, mais seguran?a e gratuito: caixa postal de 6MB, antiv?rus, prote??o contra spam. http://br.mail.yahoo.com/ From michael.guo at yale.edu Fri Jul 4 21:01:19 2003 From: michael.guo at yale.edu (Michael Guo) Date: Tue Jul 8 09:14:27 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Hacking Mailman to Work with Central Authentication Message-ID: Our site has a Central Authentication Service (CAS) that enables single sign-on across webapps, and I've been tasked with the duty of modifying Mailman to work with that service. That way, list admins do not have to maintain separate usernames and passwords for Mailman and other webapps nor does Mailman itself have to worry about authenticating users properly. Basically, we need to modify Mailman such that list admins are confronted with the CAS login page rather than the normal Mailman login page that asks for the list administrator password. Mailman needs to check if the admin's logged in through CAS and if not, forward them to the login page. (This is Python code that we already have written.) If the admin's logged in, then Mailman needs to allow the admin access. We also then need to change the logout so that the admin is logged out of both Mailman and CAS (which is done by simply forwarding to a URL). What I'm having trouble with is figuring out where to stick this code! I've been looking through Mailman for a while, but the structure of the program isn't readily apparent to me. I would appreciate any pointers, advice, or war stories about how to get something like this working. For now, we aren't worrying about the subscriber side of login until there's the capability of single user sign-on. In fact, we're planning on completely removing this feature from production. However, we may work on it, time permitting, and contribute to the project, since this sort of feature is on the todo list. So in case my question was lost in all of that text, it basically is: where to start? What files probably need to be modified to handle this? Thank you. I appreciate any help that I can get. -- Michael Guo Email: michael.guo@yale.edu URL: http://michaelguo.com AIM: goorulz From charlie at begeistert.org Tue Jul 8 16:29:49 2003 From: charlie at begeistert.org (Charlie Clark) Date: Tue Jul 8 09:27:11 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Possible yahoogroups problem. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030708152949.1653.11@wonderland.1057652783.fake> On 2003-07-08 at 15:14:07 [+0200], mailman-developers-request@python.org wrote: > Anyone want to hazard a reason why it might NOT be a breach of yahoo's > algorithm here? I'm just a bit worried that we're seeing a new phase > where spammers have figured out how to get around these protections; if > so, it also opens up mailing lists to be a new form of guided missile in > attacks on people, something I'd rather avoid, thank you...) At the risk of stating the obvious: what if the list admin just changed the rules for subscription and subscribed you anyway? Charlie From claw at kanga.nu Tue Jul 8 10:45:33 2003 From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Tue Jul 8 09:45:39 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bugs in Mailman 2.1.2 In-Reply-To: Message from "John W. M. Stevens" of "Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:25:45 MDT." <20030630152545.GB30853@betelgeuse.us> References: <20030630152545.GB30853@betelgeuse.us> Message-ID: <19705.1057671933@kanga.nu> On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:25:45 -0600 John W M Stevens wrote: > TypeError: __init__() got an unexpected keyword argument 'errors' Install the Python email package. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From claw at kanga.nu Tue Jul 8 10:48:15 2003 From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Tue Jul 8 09:48:24 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] strange behavior with EXTERNAL_PUBLIC_ARCHIVER In-Reply-To: Message from Jonas Meurer of "Sat, 28 Jun 2003 18:16:55 +0200." <20030628161655.GP1205@freesources.org> References: <20030628161655.GP1205@freesources.org> Message-ID: <19754.1057672095@kanga.nu> On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 18:16:55 +0200 Jonas Meurer wrote: > why does user list member different lists in the two cases? same uid, > same gid, only the lists it members are different. Because Mailman is run by a server which was started as root and which then setuid'ed down to a lower privilege level. You need to fully understand how Unix UIDs are managed for processes. I recommend any of the standard security tracts on why services that run as root and then setuid to something less privileged are less secure than those that start at the lower security setting. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From claw at kanga.nu Tue Jul 8 10:50:43 2003 From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Tue Jul 8 09:50:52 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] strange behavior with EXTERNAL_PUBLIC_ARCHIVER In-Reply-To: Message from J C Lawrence of "Tue, 08 Jul 2003 09:48:15 EDT." <19754.1057672095@kanga.nu> References: <20030628161655.GP1205@freesources.org> <19754.1057672095@kanga.nu> Message-ID: <19883.1057672243@kanga.nu> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 09:48:15 -0400 J C Lawrence wrote: > On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 18:16:55 +0200 Jonas Meurer > wrote: >> why does user list member different lists in the two cases? same uid, >> same gid, only the lists it members are different. > Because Mailman is run by a server which was started as root and which > then setuid'ed down to a lower privilege level. Uhh, I should have read more carefully. My error, I was wrong. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From Nigel.Metheringham at dev.InTechnology.co.uk Tue Jul 8 16:00:27 2003 From: Nigel.Metheringham at dev.InTechnology.co.uk (Nigel Metheringham) Date: Tue Jul 8 11:00:28 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Possible yahoogroups problem. In-Reply-To: <1057674737.20039.13.camel@yyz> References: <1057667764.1546.34.camel@anthem> <1057668864.7185.37.camel@angua.localnet> <1057674737.20039.13.camel@yyz> Message-ID: <1057676422.7185.70.camel@angua.localnet> On Tue, 2003-07-08 at 15:32, Barry Warsaw wrote: > [Removing list-managers from the recipients] You took off mailman-developers too... I've put that one back. :-) > > On Tue, 2003-07-08 at 08:54, Nigel Metheringham wrote: > > Since it looks like the attacker in this case generated an initial > > subscribe request, and then the confirmation, he will have had access to > > the UserDesc data - after all its all from data he sent to them in the > > subscribe request. > > Except that in an email request, we auto-generate the password, so > there's a little more randomness there. I had missed that. > > So it comes down to how good is the output of random.random() since the > > receipt time could be guessed within a few minutes giving a small number > > of hundreds of seconds to work with. > > time.time() is a float with precision equal to the system clock > precision, probably closer to microseconds than 100s of secs on Linux > . So that means to guess the subscription cookie, given a mailed subscription, you need to guess:- * the account password - basically a few characters of base64, so say 2^24 (16 million) * time.time() - so the real clock resolution over 100 seconds - which is probably 5000 (50 (Hz) * 100) on older Linux, up to 102400 on more modern versions. [Load of assumptions here...] call it around 2^12 being conservative * random.random() - since its a stringified real I guess thats probably not much better than 10^6 (say 2^20). So that gives us around 2^56 for mailed requests, 2^32 for web requests (password is known - and the time is known better, maybe should reduce that by 2^7 or so). Thats a fair amount to attack. One thing that could be considered to protect ourselves against such attacks if there was a way of reducing the complexity to reasonable levels, would be to drop pending subscription requests after a couple (think of an appropriate number) of failed cookie cracking attempts. That of course transforms this into a denial of service attack :-( > > > BTW, is there something we can do to prevent Mailman addresses from > > > getting subscribed to Yahoo! or other listservs? I'd rather not > > > hardcode in Yahoo! brain damage, so I'm looking for a more principled > > > approach. > > > > List-* headers? > > I.e. never respond to messages with List-* headers? Probably > Precedence: bulk|junk|list too. Nigel. -- [ Nigel Metheringham Nigel.Metheringham@InTechnology.co.uk ] [ - Comments in this message are my own and not ITO opinion/policy - ] From barry at python.org Tue Jul 8 17:51:49 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Tue Jul 8 12:51:51 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Possible yahoogroups problem. In-Reply-To: <1057676422.7185.70.camel@angua.localnet> References: <1057667764.1546.34.camel@anthem> <1057668864.7185.37.camel@angua.localnet> <1057674737.20039.13.camel@yyz> <1057676422.7185.70.camel@angua.localnet> Message-ID: <1057683076.20039.28.camel@yyz> On Tue, 2003-07-08 at 11:00, Nigel Metheringham wrote: > One thing that could be considered to protect ourselves against such > attacks if there was a way of reducing the complexity to reasonable > levels, would be to drop pending subscription requests after a couple > (think of an appropriate number) of failed cookie cracking attempts. That's a good idea... > That of course transforms this into a denial of service attack :-( Which are always much harder to prevent. :/ -Barry From barry at python.org Tue Jul 8 17:54:29 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Tue Jul 8 12:54:31 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Possible yahoogroups problem. In-Reply-To: <1057676422.7185.70.camel@angua.localnet> References: <1057667764.1546.34.camel@anthem> <1057668864.7185.37.camel@angua.localnet> <1057674737.20039.13.camel@yyz> <1057676422.7185.70.camel@angua.localnet> Message-ID: <1057683237.20039.31.camel@yyz> On Tue, 2003-07-08 at 11:00, Nigel Metheringham wrote: > One thing that could be considered to protect ourselves against such > attacks if there was a way of reducing the complexity to reasonable > levels, would be to drop pending subscription requests after a couple > (think of an appropriate number) of failed cookie cracking attempts. > That of course transforms this into a denial of service attack :-( Oh whoops, I just realized that if you get the cookie wrong, you have no idea which subscription request they intended to confirm. sha has 160 bits of data in it and if you're off by one, you don't get a hit and we error out. But there's no way to match the sha hexdigest that you got in the confirmation attempt with one in the database of pending subscription requests. -Barry From mburton at jo.birdsense.com Tue Jul 8 21:46:41 2003 From: mburton at jo.birdsense.com (Mike Burton) Date: Tue Jul 8 23:47:04 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bugs in Mailman 2.1.2 In-Reply-To: <19705.1057671933@kanga.nu> Message-ID: <200378204641.251824@alfa> J C, I have the email package installed, but still get this error as well. Can you tell me the path that it should be on? It resides in the 2.2.2 python directory... Take care, Mike J C Lawrence wrote: >?On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:25:45 -0600 >?John W M Stevens ?wrote: >? >?>?TypeError: __init__() got an unexpected keyword argument 'errors' >? >?Install the Python email package. From Nigel.Metheringham at dev.intechnology.co.uk Wed Jul 9 10:16:42 2003 From: Nigel.Metheringham at dev.intechnology.co.uk (Nigel Metheringham) Date: Wed Jul 9 05:16:44 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Possible yahoogroups problem. In-Reply-To: <1057683237.20039.31.camel@yyz> References: <1057667764.1546.34.camel@anthem> <1057668864.7185.37.camel@angua.localnet> <1057674737.20039.13.camel@yyz> <1057676422.7185.70.camel@angua.localnet> <1057683237.20039.31.camel@yyz> Message-ID: <1057742197.1149.3.camel@rincewind.localnet> On Tue, 2003-07-08 at 17:53, Barry Warsaw wrote: > On Tue, 2003-07-08 at 11:00, Nigel Metheringham wrote: > > > One thing that could be considered to protect ourselves against such > > attacks if there was a way of reducing the complexity to reasonable > > levels, would be to drop pending subscription requests after a couple > > (think of an appropriate number) of failed cookie cracking attempts. > > That of course transforms this into a denial of service attack :-( > > Oh whoops, I just realized that if you get the cookie wrong, you have no > idea which subscription request they intended to confirm. sha has 160 > bits of data in it and if you're off by one, you don't get a hit and we > error out. But there's no way to match the sha hexdigest that you got > in the confirmation attempt with one in the database of pending > subscription requests. Of course - I had been thinking that you are confirming a subscription address so the sender address is used as a key, but that is not how it works. You can't reasonably shut off all confirmations if you get a number of failed confirmations, and expecting the sender address to be useful is not too good either so I guess there is no real way to do this. Nigel. -- Nigel Metheringham ...at home... they call this a day off :-) From marco_henriques at yahoo.com.br Wed Jul 9 10:44:15 2003 From: marco_henriques at yahoo.com.br (Marco Antonio Reis Henriques) Date: Wed Jul 9 08:44:23 2003 Subject: Fw: [Mailman-Developers] Archive problem Message-ID: <018501c34617$d07fbb90$38053d0a@MARHNTB> Hi, I'm writing from Brazil and I need some help from you. I'm still having problems when my list receives the first, second and third messages that doesn't shown in html archive interface, but the following messages are ok. I'm using Python 2.2.2 and Mailman 2.1 on a NetBSD 1.6 machine. I see in my error log file the lines below for the first, second and third messages received by my list: Jul 07 09:42:52 2003 (23058) Uncaught runner exception: unsupported format character '(' (0x28) at index 2 Jul 07 09:42:52 2003 (23058) Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 105, in _oneloop self._onefile(msg, msgdata) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 155, in _onefile keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 73, in _dispose mlist.ArchiveMail(msg) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 207, in ArchiveMail h.close() File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 306, in close self.write_TOC() File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 1008, in write_TOC toc.write(self.html_TOC()) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 701, in html_TOC accum.append(self.html_TOC_entry(a)) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 732, in html_TOC_entry textlink = templ % { File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 118, in sizeof out = _(' %(size)i bytes ') File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/i18n.py", line 78, in _ return _translation.gettext(s) % dict ValueError: unsupported format character '(' (0x28) at index 2 Jul 07 09:42:52 2003 (23058) SHUNTING: 1057581770.414556+d6c1ae52a492b811c605bafb6607164b0261267e > Hi ALL, > > I'm using Python 2.2.2 and Mailman 2.1 on a NetBSD 1.6 > machine. > > I?m having trouble with Archive. My first message to > my list is saved in > /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/teste-l/2003-July.txt, > the messages are still been send but no are save. And, > my index.html file in > /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/teste-l/ is empty. > I see in my error log file the lines below: > > Jul 07 09:42:52 2003 (23058) Uncaught runner > exception: unsupported format character '(' (0x28) at > index 2 > Jul 07 09:42:52 2003 (23058) Traceback (most recent > call last): > File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", > line 105, in _oneloop > self._onefile(msg, msgdata) > File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", > line 155, in _onefile > keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata) > File > "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line > 73, in _dispose > mlist.ArchiveMail(msg) > File > "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", > line 207, in ArchiveMail > h.close() > File > "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", > line 306, in close > self.write_TOC() > File > "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", > line 1008, in write_TOC > toc.write(self.html_TOC()) > File > "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", > line 701, in html_TOC > accum.append(self.html_TOC_entry(a)) > File > "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", > line 732, in html_TOC_entry > textlink = templ % { > File > "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", > line 118, in sizeof > out = _(' %(size)i bytes ') > File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/i18n.py", line 78, > in _ > return _translation.gettext(s) % dict > ValueError: unsupported format character '(' (0x28) at > index 2 > > Jul 07 09:42:52 2003 (23058) SHUNTING: > 1057581770.414556+d6c1ae52a492b811c605bafb6607164b0261267e > > > Someone could help me ?!? > > Cheers, > > Marco > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail > Mais espa?o, mais seguran?a e gratuito: caixa postal de 6MB, antiv?rus, prote??o contra spam. > http://br.mail.yahoo.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Mailman-Developers mailing list > Mailman-Developers@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers From chris at jellybaby.net Tue Jul 8 15:19:59 2003 From: chris at jellybaby.net (Chris Boulter) Date: Thu Jul 10 08:57:21 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data Message-ID: <20030708131959.GA83318@jellybaby.net> Hi, I'm hoping to use Mailman, but have a few requirements which may not be addressed 'out of the box'. In particular, I'm integrating with another system and would like to store the foreign system's user IDs in Mailman so that I can correlate our users with Mailman subscribers. This will then allow us to do things like replicate changes to users' email addresses, which they currently enter in the foreign system. I've considered using clone_member from the command line, but this seems like it might not be problem-free. For instance, a user could change his email address to match someone else's who's already subscribed to one or more lists, and then change it back, and thus hijack that user's identity (identifying only be email address, the users would become indistinguishable to us). Does Mailman support the storage of any sort of user metadata? If not, would it be easyish to add? I'm not terribly familiar with Python, but it looks like I could add attributes to a class and then have them persisted by Python's 'marshalling' into a (non-standard) Mailman database. Thanks, Chris -- Write friendlier email : http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mail/edit.html Certify your signature : http://sig.jellybaby.net/ [101f42d9ex623] From chris at jellybaby.net Tue Jul 8 15:19:59 2003 From: chris at jellybaby.net (Chris Boulter) Date: Thu Jul 10 08:57:22 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data Message-ID: <20030708131959.GA83318@jellybaby.net> Hi, I'm hoping to use Mailman, but have a few requirements which may not be addressed 'out of the box'. In particular, I'm integrating with another system and would like to store the foreign system's user IDs in Mailman so that I can correlate our users with Mailman subscribers. This will then allow us to do things like replicate changes to users' email addresses, which they currently enter in the foreign system. I've considered using clone_member from the command line, but this seems like it might not be problem-free. For instance, a user could change his email address to match someone else's who's already subscribed to one or more lists, and then change it back, and thus hijack that user's identity (identifying only be email address, the users would become indistinguishable to us). Does Mailman support the storage of any sort of user metadata? If not, would it be easyish to add? I'm not terribly familiar with Python, but it looks like I could add attributes to a class and then have them persisted by Python's 'marshalling' into a (non-standard) Mailman database. Thanks, Chris -- Write friendlier email : http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mail/edit.html Certify your signature : http://sig.jellybaby.net/ [101f42d9ex623] From donn at u.washington.edu Thu Jul 10 10:20:20 2003 From: donn at u.washington.edu (Donn Cave) Date: Thu Jul 10 12:20:50 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: <20030708131959.GA83318@jellybaby.net> Message-ID: <6665520B-B2F2-11D7-8E66-000A959133A8@u.washington.edu> On Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 06:19 AM, Chris Boulter wrote: > I'm hoping to use Mailman, but have a few requirements which may not be > addressed 'out of the box'. In particular, I'm integrating with another > system and would like to store the foreign system's user IDs in > Mailman so > that I can correlate our users with Mailman subscribers. This will then > allow us to do things like replicate changes to users' email addresses, > which they currently enter in the foreign system. > > I've considered using clone_member from the command line, but this > seems > like it might not be problem-free. For instance, a user could change > his > email address to match someone else's who's already subscribed to one > or > more lists, and then change it back, and thus hijack that user's > identity > (identifying only be email address, the users would become > indistinguishable > to us). Right. You need an extra database, user-id :: list :: role :: mailman-id (maybe you wouldn't need "role", we do because our external IDs authenticate also.) > Does Mailman support the storage of any sort of user metadata? If not, > would > it be easyish to add? I'm not terribly familiar with Python, but it > looks > like I could add attributes to a class and then have them persisted by > Python's 'marshalling' into a (non-standard) Mailman database. It isn't easyish to add. There are a boat-load of places where that extra user-ID needs to be carried around and accounted for in various ways. I think in the long run there will be enough interest in this that we'll see some support for it in Mailman, but at best I imagine it's a long way off. In your case, I'm wondering if some arrangement could be made so that email delivery unifies everything with "the foreign system", and your user just uses that ID as an email address. Put the final destination address in an LDAP database and have sendmail look it up. No changes to Mailman. Or is that what you're doing already? Well, anyway, without some real Python expertise I think you're better off working around Mailman than trying to make this kind of change to it. Donn Cave, University Computing Services, University of Washington donn@u.washington.edu From charlie at begeistert.org Thu Jul 10 20:00:10 2003 From: charlie at begeistert.org (Charlie Clark) Date: Thu Jul 10 12:59:38 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030710190010.4469.6@wonderland.1057827348.fake> On 2003-07-10 at 18:00:07 [+0200], mailman-developers-request@python.org wrote: > Hi, > > I'm hoping to use Mailman, but have a few requirements which may not be > addressed 'out of the box'. In particular, I'm integrating with another > system and would like to store the foreign system's user IDs in Mailman > so that I can correlate our users with Mailman subscribers. This will > then allow us to do things like replicate changes to users' email > addresses, which they currently enter in the foreign system. > > I've considered using clone_member from the command line, but this seems > like it might not be problem-free. For instance, a user could change his > email address to match someone else's who's already subscribed to one or > more lists, and then change it back, and thus hijack that user's identity > (identifying only be email address, the users would become > indistinguishable to us). > > Does Mailman support the storage of any sort of user metadata? If not, > would it be easyish to add? I'm not terribly familiar with Python, but it > looks like I could add attributes to a class and then have them persisted > by Python's 'marshalling' into a (non-standard) Mailman database. Any kind of cloning is bound to cause problems sooner or later. One thing would be to replace the Mailman database backend with another one and integrate via that. MembershipAdaptor makes this possible but you should be able to code in Python to do this. We've recently done this as have others, I believe. One think you might try is integrating Mailman with something like Zope and XUF which you can then use to integrate users. Just an idea. Charlie From chris at jellybaby.net Thu Jul 10 20:50:39 2003 From: chris at jellybaby.net (Chris Boulter) Date: Thu Jul 10 14:50:44 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: <6665520B-B2F2-11D7-8E66-000A959133A8@u.washington.edu> References: <20030708131959.GA83318@jellybaby.net> <6665520B-B2F2-11D7-8E66-000A959133A8@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <20030710185039.GA4297@jellybaby.net> On Thu 2003-07-10 09:20:20 -0700, Donn Cave wrote: > On Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 06:19 AM, Chris Boulter wrote: > >Does Mailman support the storage of any sort of user metadata? If not, > >would it be easyish to add? I'm not terribly familiar with Python, but it > >looks like I could add attributes to a class and then have them persisted > >by Python's 'marshalling' into a (non-standard) Mailman database. > > It isn't easyish to add. There are a boat-load of places where that extra > user-ID needs to be carried around and accounted for in various ways. I > think in the long run there will be enough interest in this that we'll see > some support for it in Mailman, but at best I imagine it's a long way off. Yes, I can imagine others might be also interested in storing data in addition to subscribers' email addresses - having external system UIDs would help with 'single sign-on' integration too, which I've seen discussed here. > In your case, I'm wondering if some arrangement could be made so that > email delivery unifies everything with "the foreign system", and your user > just uses that ID as an email address. Put the final destination address > in an LDAP database and have sendmail look it up. This sounds interesting. So you're suggesting that rather than storing email addresses of subscribers in Mailman, we store our external system UIDs, then have sendmail resolve those into email addresses just before the mail gets sent? This sounds neat, but wouldn't it break other parts of Mailman? Anything which compares the From address of an incoming email would break, so that would probably screw with moderation among lots of other things. I'll carry on thinking about it, but we might be able to just enforce a unique constraint on email addresses, so we know a given email address always refers to a particular user in our external system. Thanks for your help so far. Chris -- Write friendlier email : http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mail/edit.html Certify your signature : http://sig.jellybaby.net/ [101f42d9ex623] From barry at python.org Thu Jul 10 19:51:02 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu Jul 10 14:51:03 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: <20030708131959.GA83318@jellybaby.net> References: <20030708131959.GA83318@jellybaby.net> Message-ID: <1057863029.15764.60.camel@yyz> On Tue, 2003-07-08 at 09:19, Chris Boulter wrote: > Does Mailman support the storage of any sort of user metadata? If not, would > it be easyish to add? I'm not terribly familiar with Python, but it looks > like I could add attributes to a class and then have them persisted by > Python's 'marshalling' into a (non-standard) Mailman database. Donn and Charlie posted good responses. I'll just add two things: - I'm designing Mailman3's user database so that additional foreign information can be stored with Mailman's concept of a user. We'll see if this works out as planned. - You can "just add" attributes to the MailList object, e.g. via the extend.py machinery, and it will persist automatically, as long as the value is pickleable. Cheers, -Barry From chuqui at plaidworks.com Thu Jul 10 13:05:26 2003 From: chuqui at plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Thu Jul 10 15:05:34 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: <20030710185039.GA4297@jellybaby.net> Message-ID: <76D66686-B309-11D7-9C39-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 11:50 AM, Chris Boulter wrote: > Yes, I can imagine others might be also interested in storing data in > addition to subscribers' email addresses - having external system UIDs > would > help with 'single sign-on' integration too, which I've seen discussed > here. > >> In your case, I'm wondering if some arrangement could be made so that >> email delivery unifies everything with "the foreign system", and your >> user >> just uses that ID as an email address. Put the final destination >> address >> in an LDAP database and have sendmail look it up. > > This sounds interesting. So you're suggesting that rather than storing > email addresses of subscribers in Mailman, we store our external system > UIDs, then have sendmail resolve those into email addresses just > before the > mail gets sent? Personally, I wouldn't try to extend Mailman to do this. Instead, I'd set it up so Mailman could use external data sources easily, and allow people to write adaptors to fit into that. That way, users could write adaptors for their favorite system (php-nuke, slashcode, drupal, yada yada yada), where there's already an existing account management system in place, and let it manage the subscriptions and feed delivery data to mailman, and have mailman feed undeliverable data back to the system. you risk turning mailman into yet another CMS, rather than allowing mailman to interconnect with all of the existing CMS's... the latter is a much easier and more powerful task. If I were to do this, I'd find two volunteers, one running php-nuke, one running slashcode, and have them write the plug-ins for those CMSes while Barry wrote the interface they'd talk to, and once Mailman worked friendly with both of those, it'd likely work easily with any CMS. chuq (nope. haven't been thinking about doing that myself. nope. not me. Just shooting from the hip here) From davidb at pins.net Thu Jul 10 16:12:24 2003 From: davidb at pins.net (David Birnbaum) Date: Thu Jul 10 15:12:27 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: <76D66686-B309-11D7-9C39-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> References: <76D66686-B309-11D7-9C39-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > This sounds interesting. So you're suggesting that rather than storing > > email addresses of subscribers in Mailman, we store our external system > > UIDs, then have sendmail resolve those into email addresses just > > before the > > mail gets sent? > > Personally, I wouldn't try to extend Mailman to do this. Instead, I'd > set it up so Mailman could use external data sources easily, and allow > people to write adaptors to fit into that. I've been following related threads on this a bit, and I was wondering if it would be possible to implement an external mechanism that works via a fork() for those of us who don't speak Python. It's easy enough to add members to the list and remove them from an external source, but it would be really nice if we could have Mailman call a program of our choice, with some arguments/environment variable/STDIN whenver it reacts to a bounce or something similar like that, passing in the relevant information about which email address is being affected and what's being done to it. For our specific purposes, we just need to know when Mailman gets a bounce and disables someone - that way, the appropiate flags in our MySQL database can be adjusted. Cheers, David. From barry at python.org Thu Jul 10 20:19:39 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu Jul 10 15:19:40 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: <76D66686-B309-11D7-9C39-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> References: <76D66686-B309-11D7-9C39-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Message-ID: <1057864742.15764.70.camel@yyz> On Thu, 2003-07-10 at 15:05, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > you risk turning mailman into yet another CMS, rather than allowing > mailman to interconnect with all of the existing CMS's... the latter is > a much easier and more powerful task. ...and is /definitely/ the direction Mailman 3 is going in. > If I were to do this, I'd find two volunteers, one running php-nuke, > one running slashcode, and have them write the plug-ins for those CMSes > while Barry wrote the interface they'd talk to, and once Mailman worked > friendly with both of those, it'd likely work easily with any CMS. and/or Zope . Soon, I hope to have a strawman membership API for Mailman 3. Stay tuned... -Barry From donn at u.washington.edu Thu Jul 10 13:20:37 2003 From: donn at u.washington.edu (Donn Cave) Date: Thu Jul 10 15:21:08 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: <20030710185039.GA4297@jellybaby.net> Message-ID: <95F971FC-B30B-11D7-8E66-000A959133A8@u.washington.edu> On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 11:50 AM, Chris Boulter wrote: ... > Yes, I can imagine others might be also interested in storing data in > addition to subscribers' email addresses - having external system UIDs > would > help with 'single sign-on' integration too, which I've seen discussed > here. Right. With luck. >> In your case, I'm wondering if some arrangement could be made so that >> email delivery unifies everything with "the foreign system", and your >> user >> just uses that ID as an email address. Put the final destination >> address >> in an LDAP database and have sendmail look it up. > > This sounds interesting. So you're suggesting that rather than storing > email addresses of subscribers in Mailman, we store our external system > UIDs, then have sendmail resolve those into email addresses just > before the > mail gets sent? This sounds neat, but wouldn't it break other parts of > Mailman? Anything which compares the From address of an incoming email > would > break, so that would probably screw with moderation among lots of other > things. > > I'll carry on thinking about it, but we might be able to just enforce a > unique constraint on email addresses, so we know a given email address > always refers to a particular user in our external system. I think that might be what I meant. Say your site is zoo.org, and your ID in your external system is "cboulter". Set up a host y that references that data, so mail to cboulter@y.zoo.org forwards to chris@jellybaby.net. Use cboulter@y.zoo.org in Mailman. Voila'. If that made sense, I suppose you would already be doing it, but at any rate that was the idea. I only threw in "LDAP" to sound like I know what I'm talking about. Donn Cave, University Computing Services, University of Washington donn@u.washington.edu From barry at python.org Thu Jul 10 20:22:17 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu Jul 10 15:22:18 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: References: <76D66686-B309-11D7-9C39-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Message-ID: <1057864904.15764.74.camel@yyz> On Thu, 2003-07-10 at 15:12, David Birnbaum wrote: > It's easy enough to add members to the list and remove them from an > external source, but it would be really nice if we could have Mailman call > a program of our choice, with some arguments/environment variable/STDIN > whenver it reacts to a bounce or something similar like that, passing in > the relevant information about which email address is being affected and > what's being done to it. Ug. I think forking is too expensive. What I could imagine would be an XMLRPC backend against which you could write a server in your language of choice. Now, whether XMLRPC is more efficient than fork/popen/and friends, I don't know, but at least you won't have to worry about funny shell escapes and other nonsense. just-musing-ly y'rs, -Barry From kmccann at bellanet.org Thu Jul 10 20:31:43 2003 From: kmccann at bellanet.org (Kevin McCann) Date: Thu Jul 10 15:31:44 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: <76D66686-B309-11D7-9C39-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> References: <76D66686-B309-11D7-9C39-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Message-ID: <1057865437.23123.830.camel@localhost.localdomain> Chuq's right on the money here. I'd be happy to do stuff on the PHP interface side. This would allow connectivity with PHP-Nuke, Postnuke, Xaraya, and any other PHP-based CMS. Barry, continuing our recent conversation, I'd be happy to try to do something on the PHP side but I'll need to get some pointers on how to do things in a more elegant way than I had initially suggested - running $mailman/bin commands and parsing (yuck). - Kevin On Thu, 2003-07-10 at 15:05, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > Personally, I wouldn't try to extend Mailman to do this. Instead, I'd > set it up so Mailman could use external data sources easily, and allow > people to write adaptors to fit into that. That way, users could write > adaptors for their favorite system (php-nuke, slashcode, drupal, yada > yada yada), where there's already an existing account management system > in place, and let it manage the subscriptions and feed delivery data to > mailman, and have mailman feed undeliverable data back to the system. > > you risk turning mailman into yet another CMS, rather than allowing > mailman to interconnect with all of the existing CMS's... the latter is > a much easier and more powerful task. > > If I were to do this, I'd find two volunteers, one running php-nuke, > one running slashcode, and have them write the plug-ins for those CMSes > while Barry wrote the interface they'd talk to, and once Mailman worked > friendly with both of those, it'd likely work easily with any CMS. > > chuq (nope. haven't been thinking about doing that myself. nope. not > me. Just shooting from the hip here) > > > _______________________________________________ > Mailman-Developers mailing list > Mailman-Developers@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers From chuqui at plaidworks.com Thu Jul 10 13:37:19 2003 From: chuqui at plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Thu Jul 10 15:37:28 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: <1057864742.15764.70.camel@yyz> Message-ID: On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 12:19 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: >> friendly with both of those, it'd likely work easily with any CMS. > > and/or Zope . > Zope should be one of the interfaces, definitely, but I really think it's time Mailman is interfaced with some non-Python tools so it can play better with the world beyond Python. It'll help it become that much more accepted Out There... From chuqui at plaidworks.com Thu Jul 10 13:54:44 2003 From: chuqui at plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Thu Jul 10 15:54:52 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Possible yahoogroups problem. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5A6C9E1C-B310-11D7-9C39-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 12:35 PM, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > (Of course, watching the outgoing mail would make this attack easier > too. :-) ) > of course, if they're sniffing packets or otherwise intercepting content, the only thing that'll stop it is a phone call... carrier pigeon, maybe. My worry, of course, is that the e-mail community has had a tendency to see mail-back validation as the solution to many problems (and it is, just not as globally as some might hope) --- but I don't think the community has ever stopped to make sure those techniques were really secure in a formal way, or defined what it takes to be secure. the existance has been enough... (but then, there are all sorts of attack vectors in mail lists that haven't been properly addressed. If I want to mailbomb your inbox into a cinder, does it matter whether I subscribe you 50 busy mail lists, or simply shove 1,500 "if you want to confirm your subscription..." replies in via a forged address? Most servers will happily keep resending confirmations without rate limiting, so you don't even need to find 1500 lists... Ditto help and info messages, postmaster auto-bots, etc, etc... ) From barry at python.org Thu Jul 10 21:32:38 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu Jul 10 16:32:40 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1057869125.15764.89.camel@yyz> On Thu, 2003-07-10 at 15:37, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > Zope should be one of the interfaces, definitely, but I really think > it's time Mailman is interfaced with some non-Python tools so it can > play better with the world beyond Python. It'll help it become that > much more accepted Out There... Sure. MM3 will be much more toolkit oriented, with replaceable web components, user database, user interface, etc. The core code will always be Python, but I intend to write interfaces to all the pluggable stuff. The question is what the medium for pluggability is going to be. Python has good IPC support, including XMLRPC and ORB-ish interfaces. It's always going to be easiest to extend and embed in Python, but it should be possible to interface it with non-native applications. But how, and how much of that should come with the Mailman core? For example, I know a lot of people want to interface Mailman with PHP. I don't really know what that means though. Do you want to be able to write the entire web interface in PHP? If we defined a classic CGI interface to Mailman, would that be enough? E.g. "The privacy screen takes the following form variables: blah, foo, baz which must be a string, int, and a float respectively." That ought to be doable to some reasonable approximation. Interfacing a Python library with an external system has all the issues that any such system will have. How do you interface a C++ web application with a Perl U/I? I think we need to map out what components people want to replace, and then define mechanisms and interfaces for other things to be slotted in. I don't want to lose sight of the requirement for Mailman to be usable out of the box though. -Barry From barry at python.org Thu Jul 10 21:40:15 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu Jul 10 16:40:16 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Possible yahoogroups problem. In-Reply-To: References: <1057670346.1546.58.camel@anthem> Message-ID: <1057869582.15764.95.camel@yyz> On Thu, 2003-07-10 at 15:35, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > - Can random.random() run out of randomness? That is, if you bombard > the machine with requests that call random.random(), will it start > sending out predictable responses? Any pseudo random number generate can, right? Python 2.2's RNG has 45 bits of randomness, Python 2.3's 53 bits. The latter uses the Mersenne Twister algorithm which I'm told is the state of the art. > - What is the granularity of the server's current time? If it is > "seconds", this is becomes easily predictable to an attacker. Even if > it is "hundredths of seconds", that only means that the attacker has > to send one or two hundred attempts for each confirmation. Unless > Mailman notes "failed attempt to confirm a subscription", this could > be lost in the noise. Depends on the server OS. We probably only care about *nix systems, but I'm sure there's variability even within that family. On Linux, I believe there is a 1us resolution for time.time() which uses gettimeofday(). > - How many bits of the hash are used? I ask because many programs > that use hashes will not use the whole hash. We use all 160 bits of the sha hash. -Barry From barry at python.org Thu Jul 10 21:49:40 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu Jul 10 16:49:41 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Possible yahoogroups problem. In-Reply-To: <5A6C9E1C-B310-11D7-9C39-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> References: <5A6C9E1C-B310-11D7-9C39-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Message-ID: <1057870146.15764.106.camel@yyz> On Thu, 2003-07-10 at 15:54, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > My worry, of course, is that the e-mail community has had a tendency to > see mail-back validation as the solution to many problems (and it is, > just not as globally as some might hope) --- but I don't think the > community has ever stopped to make sure those techniques were really > secure in a formal way, or defined what it takes to be secure. the > existance has been enough... This is an excellent point, and I think deeper than the hash algorithm we use. I think we can make the hash generation unbreakable for all intents and purposes. Much more worrisome to me is the actual protocols we're using for confirmation. Case in point: MM2.1 supports the ability to encode the confirmation string in the envelope sender so all it takes is a reply to confirm. This is only implemented for a small handful of confirmation scenarios currently. It's frightening to enable that for e.g. subscription confirmations because of the widespread presence of broken vacation programs. E.g. if you know Chuq's vacation program will reply to Precedence:bulk messages, you just have to wait until he's out of the office for a few days to mailbomb subscribe him to hundreds of lists. Not good! Of course mail-backs tie into opt-in policies and anti-spam policies, as well as usability issues. Make it hard for people to get on or off the list and you'll get slammed (e.g. jwz's out-of-date rant :). > (but then, there are all sorts of attack vectors in mail lists that > haven't been properly addressed. If I want to mailbomb your inbox into > a cinder, does it matter whether I subscribe you 50 busy mail lists, or > simply shove 1,500 "if you want to confirm your subscription..." > replies in via a forged address? Most servers will happily keep > resending confirmations without rate limiting, so you don't even need > to find 1500 lists... Ditto help and info messages, postmaster > auto-bots, etc, etc... ) Yep, yep, yep. I want Mailman to be a good citizen as much as possible, while still being usable. It's a darn fine line sometimes. ;) -Barry From davidb at pins.net Thu Jul 10 18:37:02 2003 From: davidb at pins.net (David Birnbaum) Date: Thu Jul 10 17:37:04 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: <1057864904.15764.74.camel@yyz> References: <76D66686-B309-11D7-9C39-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> <1057864904.15764.74.camel@yyz> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Barry Warsaw wrote: > > It's easy enough to add members to the list and remove them from an > > external source, but it would be really nice if we could have Mailman call > > a program of our choice, with some arguments/environment variable/STDIN > > whenver it reacts to a bounce or something similar like that, passing in > > the relevant information about which email address is being affected and > > what's being done to it. > > Ug. I think forking is too expensive. What I could imagine would be an > XMLRPC backend against which you could write a server in your language > of choice. Now, whether XMLRPC is more efficient than fork/popen/and > friends, I don't know, but at least you won't have to worry about funny > shell escapes and other nonsense. Somewhat expensive, perhaps...BUT it has the advantage of being pretty quick to write and very simple for those who don't have the time, knowledge, or resources (#1 and #3, in my case) to build something more complicated. And, how many requests per second are really going to hit the server, in any case? Just a thought.... David. From barry at python.org Thu Jul 10 22:43:27 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu Jul 10 17:43:28 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: References: <76D66686-B309-11D7-9C39-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> <1057864904.15764.74.camel@yyz> Message-ID: <1057873374.15764.114.camel@yyz> On Thu, 2003-07-10 at 17:37, David Birnbaum wrote: > Somewhat expensive, perhaps...BUT it has the advantage of being pretty > quick to write and very simple for those who don't have the time, > knowledge, or resources (#1 and #3, in my case) to build something more > complicated. And, how many requests per second are really going to hit > the server, in any case? I'm not against a command line interface that meets your needs, if that's the most expedient way to hook Mailman up to foreign systems. I /would/ however like to have some requirements for that hookup so we can tailor the scripts to those specific needs. For example, the current crop of scripts in bin/ were written primarily to solve a problem that the human operator was having. That may not be the most efficient or useful interface for hooking two programs up. -Barry From chuqui at plaidworks.com Thu Jul 10 15:48:46 2003 From: chuqui at plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Thu Jul 10 17:48:54 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: <1057873374.15764.114.camel@yyz> Message-ID: <4844C100-B320-11D7-9C2B-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 02:42 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > > I'm not against a command line interface that meets your needs, if > that's the most expedient way to hook Mailman up to foreign systems. Here's how you implement it in five minutes: 1) disable all of the mailman web pages. 2) wherever you're storing your subscription data, set it to export a list of subscribed addresses once an hour, with whatever detail info (digest mode, etc) you wnat/need to give Mailman. 3) once an hour, lock the server, programmatically zero the subscriber list inside mailman and do a bulk load of each list, then unlock. 4) write a script that processes ~mailman/logs/bounce once a day and feeds bounce data back to the subscription management program. 5) modify the lists List-* and header/footer data to point to the subscription management as needed. At a simple level, you can do this stuff today. But it'd be nice if 2-4 were more granular and integrated, but you can, in fact, suck the guts out of Mailman and use it as a delivery tool only... From donn at u.washington.edu Thu Jul 10 16:04:06 2003 From: donn at u.washington.edu (Donn Cave) Date: Thu Jul 10 18:04:37 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: <4844C100-B320-11D7-9C2B-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Message-ID: <6C907C27-B322-11D7-8E66-000A959133A8@u.washington.edu> On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 02:48 PM, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: ... > 4) write a script that processes ~mailman/logs/bounce once a day and > feeds bounce data back to the subscription management program. That might be the key point - if the information he needs is in logs/bounce, then something can read that and do the MySQL flags as required. If that also means the web pages have to be disabled, subscriber lists reloaded, etc. -- that would also have to be done when using the proposed external interface program, true? I may have missed something, this thread took kind of an odd turn a couple of messages back and I'm not sure where I am. In any case, logging seems like a fine way to satisfy external interface needs when they're asynchronous. When they're synchronous, you have bigger problems anyway. Donn Cave, University Computing Services, University of Washington donn@u.washington.edu From davidb at pins.net Thu Jul 10 21:47:20 2003 From: davidb at pins.net (David Birnbaum) Date: Thu Jul 10 20:47:23 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: <1057873374.15764.114.camel@yyz> References: <76D66686-B309-11D7-9C39-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> <1057864904.15764.74.camel@yyz> <1057873374.15764.114.camel@yyz> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Barry Warsaw wrote: > > Somewhat expensive, perhaps...BUT it has the advantage of being pretty > > quick to write and very simple for those who don't have the time, > > knowledge, or resources (#1 and #3, in my case) to build something more > > complicated. And, how many requests per second are really going to hit > > the server, in any case? > > I'm not against a command line interface that meets your needs, if > that's the most expedient way to hook Mailman up to foreign systems. I > /would/ however like to have some requirements for that hookup so we can > tailor the scripts to those specific needs. For example, the current > crop of scripts in bin/ were written primarily to solve a problem that > the human operator was having. That may not be the most efficient or > useful interface for hooking two programs up. Hmmm...well, for this particular application, we pretty much need a simple way to link in to our main database when bounces occur. If I were to craft a quick and dirty interface, it might look like this: [command] -e(mail) 'email@address.com' -l(list) 'listname' -b(ounce) [ soft | hard ] and when a person gets removed (due to bounces, or anything else, I suppose): [command] -e(mail) 'email@address.com' -l(ist) 'listname' -u(nsubscribe) People can't subscribe directly to the list, we handle that elsewhere, so the mailing interface and such does not apply. So this would take care of my immediate needs. The other option as was suggested in the list, would be to write a script that tails the bounce or other logs, and handles things asynchronously that way. I'm considering that as an alternative that's also relatively straightforward to write. David. From Nigel.Metheringham at dev.InTechnology.co.uk Fri Jul 11 09:38:47 2003 From: Nigel.Metheringham at dev.InTechnology.co.uk (Nigel Metheringham) Date: Fri Jul 11 04:38:49 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Injection duplicate removal Message-ID: <1057912722.23197.9.camel@angua.localnet> Occasionally a subscriber on a list has some mail problem which results in multiple copies being sent out to the list. Now this is annoying when it happens to a personal address, when a list address gets bombed in this way its seriously annoying - and in some cases has been a real problem for the originator who gets 1000's of messages complaining about the multiple sendings :-) Would it be advantageous to have a duplicate filter within Mailman which maintains a database of the last n messages sent, holding the sender, subject and a body hash. Duplicates could then be bounced before list injection. This is working round someone elses set of bugs, but could be a useful list defence mechanism. However it will not solve the looping mail problem where a mail gets bigger each time round as something is prepended/appended to it. Nigel. -- [ Nigel Metheringham Nigel.Metheringham@InTechnology.co.uk ] [ - Comments in this message are my own and not ITO opinion/policy - ] From chris at jellybaby.net Fri Jul 11 10:47:15 2003 From: chris at jellybaby.net (Chris Boulter) Date: Fri Jul 11 04:47:22 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: <95F971FC-B30B-11D7-8E66-000A959133A8@u.washington.edu> References: <20030710185039.GA4297@jellybaby.net> <95F971FC-B30B-11D7-8E66-000A959133A8@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <20030711084715.GA40471@jellybaby.net> On Thu 2003-07-10 12:20:37 -0700, Donn Cave wrote: > I think that might be what I meant. Say your site is zoo.org, and your ID > in your external system is "cboulter". Set up a host y that references > that data, so mail to cboulter@y.zoo.org forwards to chris@jellybaby.net. > Use cboulter@y.zoo.org in Mailman. Voila'. If that made sense, I suppose > you would already be doing it, but at any rate that was the idea. I think we'd still have problems with incoming mail to Mailman. We'd have to set something up to rewrite From addresses to match what Mailman was expecting, so it could verify that users really are subscribed to mailing lists and such like. That might be doable though; I'll carry on thinking about it some more. Thanks for everyone's contributions. It seems like this is a bit of a hot topic! > I only threw in "LDAP" to sound like I know what I'm talking about. :-) -- Write friendlier email : http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mail/edit.html Certify your signature : http://sig.jellybaby.net/ [101f42d9ex623] From chris at jellybaby.net Fri Jul 11 10:57:11 2003 From: chris at jellybaby.net (Chris Boulter) Date: Fri Jul 11 04:57:21 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Storing additional user data In-Reply-To: <1057864904.15764.74.camel@yyz> References: <76D66686-B309-11D7-9C39-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> <1057864904.15764.74.camel@yyz> Message-ID: <20030711085710.GB40471@jellybaby.net> On Thu 2003-07-10 15:21:44 -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote: > On Thu, 2003-07-10 at 15:12, David Birnbaum wrote: > > It's easy enough to add members to the list and remove them from an > > external source, but it would be really nice if we could have Mailman call > > a program of our choice, with some arguments/environment variable/STDIN > > whenver it reacts to a bounce or something similar like that, passing in > > the relevant information about which email address is being affected and > > what's being done to it. > > Ug. I think forking is too expensive. What I could imagine would be an > XMLRPC backend against which you could write a server in your language > of choice. Now, whether XMLRPC is more efficient than fork/popen/and > friends, I don't know, but at least you won't have to worry about funny > shell escapes and other nonsense. An XML/SOAP-like interface would be nice! Listserv supports something it calls 'list exits', which are programs called in response to significant happenings (a bit of an old and crufty mechanism, but better than nothing). Their manual documents the 'exit points' they support. They all look quite obvious, but it might be of some use if something similar is being planned for Mailman3. Section 5.2 of their manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8e/developer/developer.pdf -- Write friendlier email : http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mail/edit.html Certify your signature : http://sig.jellybaby.net/ [101f42d9ex623] From marco_henriques at yahoo.com.br Fri Jul 11 11:48:30 2003 From: marco_henriques at yahoo.com.br (Marco Antonio Reis Henriques) Date: Fri Jul 11 09:48:43 2003 Subject: Fw: [Mailman-Developers] Archive problem Message-ID: <002b01c347b3$20ea2600$38053d0a@MARHNTB> Hi, I solved that problem. The interesting thing about this problem was that the first, second and third messages didn't appear in the archive html interface, only the following messages (forth, ...). Thanks for anyone that didn't help me. :-) Cheers, Marco ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marco Antonio Reis Henriques" To: Cc: ; Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 9:44 AM Subject: Fw: [Mailman-Developers] Archive problem > Hi, > > I'm writing from Brazil and I need some help from you. I'm still having > problems when my list receives the first, second and third messages that > doesn't shown in html archive interface, but the following messages are ok. > I'm using Python 2.2.2 and Mailman 2.1 on a NetBSD 1.6 machine. I see in my > error log file the lines below for the first, second and third messages > received by my list: > > Jul 07 09:42:52 2003 (23058) Uncaught runner exception: unsupported format > character '(' (0x28) at index 2 > Jul 07 09:42:52 2003 (23058) Traceback (most recent call last): > File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 105, in _oneloop > self._onefile(msg, msgdata) > File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 155, in _onefile > keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata) > File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 73, in _dispose > mlist.ArchiveMail(msg) > File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 207, in > ArchiveMail h.close() > File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 306, in close > self.write_TOC() > File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 1008, in > write_TOC toc.write(self.html_TOC()) > File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 701, in > html_TOC accum.append(self.html_TOC_entry(a)) > File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 732, in > html_TOC_entry textlink = templ % { > File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", line 118, in sizeof > out = _(' %(size)i bytes ') > File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/i18n.py", line 78, in _ return > _translation.gettext(s) % dict ValueError: unsupported format character '(' > (0x28) at index 2 > Jul 07 09:42:52 2003 (23058) SHUNTING: > 1057581770.414556+d6c1ae52a492b811c605bafb6607164b0261267e > > > > Hi ALL, > > > > I'm using Python 2.2.2 and Mailman 2.1 on a NetBSD 1.6 > > machine. > > > > I?m having trouble with Archive. My first message to > > my list is saved in > > /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/teste-l/2003-July.txt, > > the messages are still been send but no are save. And, > > my index.html file in > > /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/teste-l/ is empty. > > I see in my error log file the lines below: > > > > Jul 07 09:42:52 2003 (23058) Uncaught runner > > exception: unsupported format character '(' (0x28) at > > index 2 > > Jul 07 09:42:52 2003 (23058) Traceback (most recent > > call last): > > File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", > > line 105, in _oneloop > > self._onefile(msg, msgdata) > > File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", > > line 155, in _onefile > > keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata) > > File > > "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line > > 73, in _dispose > > mlist.ArchiveMail(msg) > > File > > "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", > > line 207, in ArchiveMail > > h.close() > > File > > "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", > > line 306, in close > > self.write_TOC() > > File > > "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", > > line 1008, in write_TOC > > toc.write(self.html_TOC()) > > File > > "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", > > line 701, in html_TOC > > accum.append(self.html_TOC_entry(a)) > > File > > "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", > > line 732, in html_TOC_entry > > textlink = templ % { > > File > > "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py", > > line 118, in sizeof > > out = _(' %(size)i bytes ') > > File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/i18n.py", line 78, > > in _ > > return _translation.gettext(s) % dict > > ValueError: unsupported format character '(' (0x28) at > > index 2 > > > > Jul 07 09:42:52 2003 (23058) SHUNTING: > > 1057581770.414556+d6c1ae52a492b811c605bafb6607164b0261267e > > > > > > Someone could help me ?!? > > > > Cheers, > > > > Marco > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > Yahoo! Mail > > Mais espa?o, mais seguran?a e gratuito: caixa postal de 6MB, antiv?rus, > prote??o contra spam. > > http://br.mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Mailman-Developers mailing list > > Mailman-Developers@python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers > > > _______________________________________________ > Mailman-Developers mailing list > Mailman-Developers@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers From adnankk at super.net.pk Tue Jul 15 01:58:01 2003 From: adnankk at super.net.pk (adnankk) Date: Mon Jul 21 13:23:43 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Non members Still post on member only List Message-ID: <3F130B49.22947798@super.net.pk> "Action to take for postings from non-members for which no explicit action is defined"=Hold, and All rules for Non-members are Blank, But still non-members mails are post without Approval. Below is the mail header which is Posted without approval on member only list. Received: (from root@localhost)by linux10847.dn.net (8.11.6/verio) id h6ED2Ok14997; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:02:24 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:02:24 -0400 Message-ID: <200307141302.h6ED2Ok14997@linux10847.dn.net> From: Bridges TV Subject: ISPAK:Sign Petition For Muslim TV Channel X-BeenThere: ispak@ispak.net.pk X-Mailman-Version: 2.1 Precedence: list X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: %\5!!5@j"!\'Y!!TGg!! Regards, Adnan Khan. From alain at xyz123.org Wed Jul 16 11:23:33 2003 From: alain at xyz123.org (Alain Lange at xyz123.org) Date: Mon Jul 21 13:24:04 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] looking for a developer Message-ID: Hello. I need someone who will set up Mailman on a server for me. It needs to have a MySQL backend so it can handle larger lists. I would also like the ability to collect more information about the users who sign up for the lists. First Name Last Name Address City State Zip Code Alain From auke.jilderda at philips.com Mon Jul 14 14:06:37 2003 From: auke.jilderda at philips.com (Auke Jilderda) Date: Mon Jul 21 13:24:18 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Howto implement an external archiver? Message-ID: <200307141306.37618.auke.jilderda@philips.com> Currently, GForge [1] servers have both web forums and mailinglists which I find confusing. I prefer to have one discussion channel that is accessible via web, mail, and news. The easiest way to do that is replacing Mailman's pipermail archiver with my own that would archive postings into the GForge's forums. (The way back, that is from forum to list, already exists.) I've been digging into Mailman a little to figure out how to replace the archiver but can't really find what I'm looking for: Exactly what do I need to do: Subclass from "Archiver" and implement the "ArchiveMail" method? Would be nice if you could point me in the right direction. Saves lots of time. :-) Auke -- Auke Jilderda, mailto:auke.jilderda@philips.com, phone: +31 40 2744791 Philips Research, Prof. Holstlaan 4, 5656 AA Eindhoven, The Netherlands http://pww.innersource.philips.com, http://pww.opensource.philips.com From fp at dataprogress.it Wed Jul 16 11:14:03 2003 From: fp at dataprogress.it (Francesco Porta) Date: Mon Jul 21 13:24:30 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers@python.org/msg05836.html Message-ID: I'm not sw developer, but i change only: file: /var/mailman/scripts/driver line68: immediate=1 in immediate=0. i've restarted mailman and... Mailman works, and works well. I don't know if it's correct, but it works. bye FP From imrankk at super.net.pk Tue Jul 15 01:56:00 2003 From: imrankk at super.net.pk (Imran Khan) Date: Mon Jul 21 13:25:01 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Non members Still post on member only List Message-ID: <3F130AD0.50B2BDA3@super.net.pk> "Action to take for postings from non-members for which no explicit action is defined"=Hold, and All rules for Non-members are Blank, But still non-members mails are post without Approval. Below is the mail header which is Posted without approval on member only list. Received: (from root@localhost) by linux10847.dn.net (8.11.6/verio) id h6ED2Ok14997; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:02:24 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:02:24 -0400 Message-ID: <200307141302.h6ED2Ok14997@linux10847.dn.net> From: Bridges TV Subject: ISPAK:Sign Petition For Muslim TV Channel X-BeenThere: ispak@ispak.net.pk X-Mailman-Version: 2.1 Precedence: list X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-SpamScore: ss X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: %\5!!5@j"!\'Y!!TGg!! Regards, Adnan Khan. From john at hosting365.ie Mon Jul 14 14:54:50 2003 From: john at hosting365.ie (John P. Looney) Date: Mon Jul 21 13:25:24 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] password API ? Message-ID: <1058190888.27208.4507.camel@cosimo.hosting365.ie> Hi, does anyone have a python snippet to rip a password out of the mailman list DB ? I'm trying to authenticate people to apache against their mailman passwords, but my lack of python is hampering me. Even a link with some snippets or examples would be excellent. john From juanen at metropoli2000.com Wed Jul 16 13:54:01 2003 From: juanen at metropoli2000.com (Juan Enrique =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F3mez?=) Date: Mon Jul 21 13:25:41 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bounce & Virgin Message-ID: <1058360037.9581.7.camel@amspoke> Hi! I have been investigating on the performance problems with this two daemons when using very big lists (more than 100k members), and in the strace debug, it seems that everytime a bounce is scored the mailman rewrites the entire database for the list?, is working this way mailman? Thanks in advance, -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Juan Enrique Gomez Perez |Metropoli2000 Networks, S.L. | Phone: +34 914250023 Fax: +34 914250136 | email: juan.enrique.gomez@metropoli2000.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- PGP Fingerprint: 6B39 3A2B A17B 1E8E CFFD FC14 678E 0A22 BD80 C486 Public Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xBD80C486 If this message hasn't a correct signature please notify it to juanen@metropoli2000.com. To get the public key please use the above url. Thanks for your help. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Esta parte del mensaje =?ISO-8859-1?Q?est=E1?= firmada digitalmente Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20030716/27bc5310/attachment.bin From mlucas at rice.edu Fri Jul 11 15:20:03 2003 From: mlucas at rice.edu (Mike Lucas) Date: Mon Jul 21 13:25:51 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman and a clustered mail server. Message-ID: <3F0F0DE3.7040603@rice.edu> We are setting up a new clustered/load balanced mail system using postfix. We want to run mailman as part of this cluster for all our mailing lists. My question is this, If we run mailman on just 1 box in this system and it does the web and script stuff. Is there a problem with it pointing to the rest of the cluster for the MTA part? Also if this is possible will mail commands still work or will we have to only use the web interface? Has anyone done any clustering of mailman? Any info would be great, Mike From moron at industrial.org Sat Jul 12 15:33:23 2003 From: moron at industrial.org (moron) Date: Mon Jul 21 13:25:58 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] running find_member as another user / CGI Message-ID: <1366414750.20030712143323@industrial.org> Howdy. I am currently trying to integrate a separate CGI system with Mailman and part of my goal is to be able to show what Mailman lists a user is subscribed to. "find_member" would be perfect except that it will only function properly when run as root or mailman (adding the sticky bit does not seem to help, at least under FreeBSD). The script fails when trying to read in the pickled list details due to permissions issues (obviously it is running without the needed group permissions) and I have as of yet not been able to make it run as needed. I am trying to avoid having to dump the entire address database to parse separately as a workaround. I thought that the CGI wrapper might be the solution but not being a C guru I am a bit confused what the wrapper actually does (I am not clear where the scriptname value is being looked for since it is not looking for them in "/bin"). So basically, I am looking for suggestions on how to either make "find_member" a bit more lenient on who can run it or how to invoke an equivalent to find_member via the CGI wrapper. Thanks for any suggestions (besides those on flying kites and learning about where the sun shines). =) -- ||. __,,_____________ codeGRUNT : .|| ||. < ___________/ moron : .|| ||. / /-' send EEEI news to : .|| ||. /___/ industrial & DIY culture : http://industrial.org .|| ||. narc : http://industrial.org/narc .|| From phoffman at imc.org Thu Jul 10 22:35:10 2003 From: phoffman at imc.org (Paul Hoffman / IMC) Date: Mon Jul 21 13:26:06 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Possible yahoogroups problem. In-Reply-To: <1057670346.1546.58.camel@anthem> References: <1057670346.1546.58.camel@anthem> Message-ID: At 9:19 AM -0400 7/8/03, Barry Warsaw wrote: >The data we use: > >- the str() of the output of random.random() >- the str() of the server's current time >- the str() of the "content" > >and we concatenate these three strings together before hashing them. I'm not sitting in front of the source code for Mailman right now (and I don't read Python), so this brings up a few questions. - Can random.random() run out of randomness? That is, if you bombard the machine with requests that call random.random(), will it start sending out predictable responses? - What is the granularity of the server's current time? If it is "seconds", this is becomes easily predictable to an attacker. Even if it is "hundredths of seconds", that only means that the attacker has to send one or two hundred attempts for each confirmation. Unless Mailman notes "failed attempt to confirm a subscription", this could be lost in the noise. - How many bits of the hash are used? I ask because many programs that use hashes will not use the whole hash. The answer to the above three (particularly the first) determines whether or not an attacker can sensibly forge confirmations. (Of course, watching the outgoing mail would make this attack easier too. :-) ) --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From phoffman at imc.org Fri Jul 11 11:27:01 2003 From: phoffman at imc.org (Paul Hoffman / IMC) Date: Mon Jul 21 13:26:09 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Possible yahoogroups problem. In-Reply-To: <1057869582.15764.95.camel@yyz> References: <1057670346.1546.58.camel@anthem> <1057869582.15764.95.camel@yyz> Message-ID: At 4:39 PM -0400 7/10/03, Barry Warsaw wrote: >On Thu, 2003-07-10 at 15:35, Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: > >> - Can random.random() run out of randomness? That is, if you bombard >> the machine with requests that call random.random(), will it start >> sending out predictable responses? > >Any pseudo random number generate can, right? Some PRNGs have failure modes which become easily predictable. These are almost always triggered when the source of random bits is exhausted. If you ask for too much randomness too quickly, you can start getting predictable data. Well-written PRNGs are smarter than this: they put out not-very-random but very-random-looking values, usually based on "hash of ( the last random value | current time | job number )". > Python 2.2's RNG has 45 >bits of randomness, Python 2.3's 53 bits. The latter uses the Mersenne >Twister algorithm which I'm told is the state of the art. Then this is sufficient. And so is 45 bits of randomness. > > - What is the granularity of the server's current time? If it is >> "seconds", this is becomes easily predictable to an attacker. Even if >> it is "hundredths of seconds", that only means that the attacker has >> to send one or two hundred attempts for each confirmation. Unless >> Mailman notes "failed attempt to confirm a subscription", this could >> be lost in the noise. > >Depends on the server OS. We probably only care about *nix systems, but >I'm sure there's variability even within that family. On Linux, I >believe there is a 1us resolution for time.time() which uses >gettimeofday(). As long as your random value has 45 bits of randomness (and none of those bits rely on the time!), then it doesn't matter how predictable your time value is. > > - How many bits of the hash are used? I ask because many programs >> that use hashes will not use the whole hash. > >We use all 160 bits of the sha hash. Good! In summary, assuming that the first answer above (about the pseudo-random number generator) is correct and it gives 45 bits of randomness at each invocation, there is no way that an attacker can attack the auto-responder without sending about 35 trillion messages. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From rhale at chex.co.uk Mon Jul 14 10:08:15 2003 From: rhale at chex.co.uk (Robert Hale) Date: Mon Jul 21 13:26:14 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] withlist & passwords Message-ID: Hiya I hope this is the right place to post this techie type question. My apologies if not. Python is new to me, and I was trying to avoid learning it - maybe I will have to! I have been using mailman for some time now and then decided to build a 'user' area on my website that is based on the same email addy and password that mailman uses. (Its my own box so I have root access) with version 2.0.13 I used the following - ./withlist -r cpw list_domain.com this gave a full list of email address and their passwords. with 2.1.2 this throws up errors I have worked out I can use - ./withlist -l -r checkpw list_domain.com email@address and this will return the password for a single user Are there any ideas on how I can make withlist return a list of all email address and passwords? (I was thinking of a small perl script to repeatedly call this foreach email address returned by ./list_members but that seems silly...) Thanks Robert From rob at ecommerce-magic.com Fri Jul 18 10:22:42 2003 From: rob at ecommerce-magic.com (Robert Anderson) Date: Mon Jul 21 13:26:19 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Really slow bounce processing Message-ID: <1058519775.19241.1558.camel@homer.ecommerce-magic.com> I have a rather large mailman mailing list (around 180,000 opt-in subs over 7-8 lists) have had system problems earlier in the week which shunted all bounce and subscriber requests because of corrupt pending lock file. Well I sorted out the problems but ended up with a HUGE amount of bounce requests to process (over 25,000). Problem is that the bounce processing is so slow. I have tried the following optimisations but can't get any more than 10 bounce requests processed per minute: - mounted locks directory under ramfs - mounted lists directory under ramfs (tried to see if it improved performance but it didn't so I changed it back) - removed all unessential disk writes (commented out a bunch of syslog's) - placed debugging code to test and readjust the order of the bounce processing code in BounceAPI.py to try the most used bounce processes first. - tried breaking down the large bounce directory into smaller batches to make sure the huge directory size wasn't killing the system. - redirected incoming bounce to "bounce_in" directory so I don't re-process the same addresses again and again. - Reduced lock timeout settings. - Sending out all new system messages using VERP as this seems to reduce the about of code to process future bounces. - tested and tried 1,2,4 and 8 bounce runner processes (locks and 100% CPU usage killed any parallelisation gains and I went back to 1 process) - Pulled my hair out!!! My system is a P4 2.0 GHZ with 1.5GB ram and 2x 7200 rpm HDD (lists folder on second disk to reduce i/o bottlenecks). Does anyone have any idea's on how to tune bounce processing to get through this backlog. I can imagine 5-10 bounce file processes per minute is right. I'm hoping I have missed some magical silver bullet that will fix all my problems. Any help, assistance, suggestion are very welcome. while I'm going to get all the bounces processed over the weekend, I'm not looking forward to the disabled reminder processing in a weeks time!!! Cheers -- Robert Anderson Webmaster http://www.Aarons-Jokes.com +64 21 808 525 From slave at codegrunt.com Sat Jul 12 15:36:09 2003 From: slave at codegrunt.com (slave@codegrunt.com) Date: Mon Jul 21 13:26:26 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] running find_member as another user / CGI Message-ID: <1336579880.20030712143609@industrial.org> Howdy. I am currently trying to integrate a separate CGI system with Mailman and part of my goal is to be able to show what Mailman lists a user is subscribed to. "find_member" would be perfect except that it will only function properly when run as root or mailman (adding the sticky bit does not seem to help, at least under FreeBSD). The script fails when trying to read in the pickled list details due to permissions issues (obviously it is running without the needed group permissions) and I have as of yet not been able to make it run as needed. I am trying to avoid having to dump the entire address database to parse separately as a workaround. I thought that the CGI wrapper might be the solution but not being a C guru I am a bit confused what the wrapper actually does (I am not clear where the scriptname value is being looked for since it is not looking for them in "/bin"). So basically, I am looking for suggestions on how to either make "find_member" a bit more lenient on who can run it or how to invoke an equivalent to find_member via the CGI wrapper. Thanks for any suggestions (besides those on flying kites and learning about where the sun shines). =) -- ||. __,,_____________ codeGRUNT : .|| ||. < ___________/ moron : .|| ||. / /-' send EEEI news to : .|| ||. /___/ industrial & DIY culture : http://industrial.org .|| ||. narc : http://industrial.org/narc .|| From fil at rezo.net Mon Jul 21 20:40:45 2003 From: fil at rezo.net (Fil) Date: Mon Jul 21 13:40:48 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Really slow bounce processing In-Reply-To: <1058519775.19241.1558.camel@homer.ecommerce-magic.com> References: <1058519775.19241.1558.camel@homer.ecommerce-magic.com> Message-ID: <20030721174045.GB25070@rezo.net> Yes, bounce processing is slow with Mailman; that's also what's making me stay with sympa for my bigger lists (180 000 subscribers too). The problem as I see it is that Mailman locks the list before it processes any bounce. Instead, I think, it should pre-process bounces without even opening the list db; then only post-process the bouncing addresse(s) against the real list. Easier said than done ;) > I have a rather large mailman mailing list (around 180,000 opt-in subs > over 7-8 lists) have had system problems earlier in the week which > shunted all bounce and subscriber requests because of corrupt pending > lock file. From barry at python.org Mon Jul 21 20:19:31 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon Jul 21 15:19:33 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bounce & Virgin In-Reply-To: <1058360037.9581.7.camel@amspoke> References: <1058360037.9581.7.camel@amspoke> Message-ID: <1058815137.2036.100.camel@yyz> On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 08:53, Juan Enrique G?mez wrote: > Hi! > > I have been investigating on the performance problems with this two > daemons when using very big lists (more than 100k members), and in the > strace debug, it seems that everytime a bounce is scored the mailman > rewrites the entire database for the list?, is working this way mailman? What version of Mailman please? -Barry From r.barrett at ftel.co.uk Mon Jul 21 21:40:14 2003 From: r.barrett at ftel.co.uk (Richard Barrett) Date: Mon Jul 21 15:40:34 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Howto implement an external archiver? In-Reply-To: <200307141306.37618.auke.jilderda@philips.com> Message-ID: <26604D3E-BBB3-11D7-B511-000A957C9A50@ftel.co.uk> On Monday, July 14, 2003, at 12:06 PM, Auke Jilderda wrote: > Currently, GForge [1] servers have both web forums and mailinglists > which > I find confusing. I prefer to have one discussion channel that is > accessible via web, mail, and news. The easiest way to do that is > replacing Mailman's pipermail archiver with my own that would archive > postings into the GForge's forums. (The way back, that is from forum > to > list, already exists.) > > I've been digging into Mailman a little to figure out how to replace > the > archiver but can't really find what I'm looking for: Exactly what do I > need to do: Subclass from "Archiver" and implement the "ArchiveMail" > method? > The two MM configuration variables PUBLIC_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER and PRIVATE_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER let you define commands which are called to handle mail to be archived instead of using the internal pipermail archiver. The comments in $prefix/Mailman/Defaults.py prior to the default definitions of these variables give more information. > Would be nice if you could point me in the right direction. Saves > lots of > time. :-) > > > Auke > > -- > Auke Jilderda, mailto:auke.jilderda@philips.com, phone: +31 40 2744791 > Philips Research, Prof. Holstlaan 4, 5656 AA Eindhoven, The Netherlands > http://pww.innersource.philips.com, http://pww.opensource.philips.com From barry at python.org Tue Jul 22 13:54:55 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Tue Jul 22 08:54:57 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Fwd: [Mailman-cabal] Linux Expo UK 2003 - .Org Village Free Space for Mailman] Message-ID: <1058878461.27675.31.camel@anthem> This sounds like an interesting opportunity to get some more Mailman exposure. I won't be able to attend, but if any of our UK or Euro friends are planning to, would you be willing to volunteer a little time at the booth? If so, please let me and Brian know (I don't know what all is involved, other than shouting at the top of your lungs every five minutes: "Mailman Rocks!" :) -Barry -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Brian Teeman Subject: [Mailman-cabal] Linux Expo UK 2003 - .Org Village Free Space for Mailman Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:48:18 +0100 (BST) Size: 3633 Url: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20030722/505cfa34/attachment.eml From juanen at metropoli2000.com Wed Jul 23 07:51:36 2003 From: juanen at metropoli2000.com (Juan Enrique =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F3mez?=) Date: Wed Jul 23 02:51:37 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bounce & Virgin In-Reply-To: <1058815137.2036.100.camel@yyz> References: <1058360037.9581.7.camel@amspoke> <1058815137.2036.100.camel@yyz> Message-ID: <1058943090.4902.1.camel@amspoke> El lun, 21-07-2003 a las 21:18, Barry Warsaw escribi?: With the latest stable 2.1.2 Thanks! > On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 08:53, Juan Enrique G?mez wrote: > > Hi! > > > > I have been investigating on the performance problems with this two > > daemons when using very big lists (more than 100k members), and in the > > strace debug, it seems that everytime a bounce is scored the mailman > > rewrites the entire database for the list?, is working this way mailman? > > What version of Mailman please? > > -Barry > -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Juan Enrique Gomez Perez |Metropoli2000 Networks, S.L. | Phone: +34 914250023 Fax: +34 914250136 | email: juan.enrique.gomez@metropoli2000.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- PGP Fingerprint: 6B39 3A2B A17B 1E8E CFFD FC14 678E 0A22 BD80 C486 Public Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xBD80C486 If this message hasn't a correct signature please notify it to juanen@metropoli2000.com. To get the public key please use the above url. Thanks for your help. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Esta parte del mensaje =?ISO-8859-1?Q?est=E1?= firmada digitalmente Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20030723/20af17d3/attachment.bin From rob at ecommerce-magic.com Wed Jul 23 11:18:33 2003 From: rob at ecommerce-magic.com (Robert Anderson) Date: Wed Jul 23 06:18:34 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] dual processor & large list perforance issues Message-ID: <1058955493.378.446.camel@homer.ecommerce-magic.com> What sort of performance gains can mailman expect from going from a single processor to a dual processor machine? I'm considering going from a P4 2.0GHz machine to a dual 2.0 GHz Xeon system (also going from ide to scsi hdd). My question is will mailman make use of the second processor with different processes? Say one processor could be used for serious bounce processing and the other for subscriber / unsubscribe requests and other functions? Or will all the locking on list files etc. negate the extra processor? Second question/comments: My total subscriber base in as of today 219,829 (announce only) and it seems to be killing my current machine. I'd like to be able to scale up to over 3 or 400,000 if needed. Am I perhaps being unrealistic about mailman's abilities to handle this? An idea occurred to me that perhaps the only way to stick with mailman and process large lists could be to split the volume up over multiple boxes. Everything else seems to be able to handle around 200,000 subscribers except bounce processing (ie MTA can pump out the messages no problems). It has been suggested Fil at Rezo that pre-processing the bounce messages without opening the lists and then only post-processing the bounces against the real lists could improve performance. Is this in keeping with plans for 3.0 or any other planned future release? If a change like this is likely to be accepted into CVS would any other large list users be interested in assisting with resources for someone to make the changes and submit them back into the mailman project? >From an economics per perspective the cost of ownership of additional box's to run mailman amounts to $1000's of dollars annually. If through a number of interested parties all making a small investment we can cut down of the need for extra machines AND help make mailman a better system then we have a big win-win. Anyone interested in discussing this further on or off list with me would be appreciated (including anybody who might be interested in the contract to do the work or any ideas of the feasibility / time the change could make) -- Robert Anderson Managing Director Ecommerce Magic Ltd http://www.ecommerce-magic.com +64 21 808 525 From juanen at metropoli2000.com Wed Jul 23 13:39:35 2003 From: juanen at metropoli2000.com (Juan Enrique =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F3mez?=) Date: Wed Jul 23 08:39:36 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bounce processing Message-ID: <1058963970.8414.1.camel@amspoke> Hi! I have been looking how works the bounce daemon, and i see thtat everytime it processes a bounce, it rewrites the list file complete, is this possible?, if so i think this is a crazyness cause in lists with 200k users, every bounce takes tooooo looong... thanks for the info. Best, -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Juan Enrique Gomez Perez |Metropoli2000 Networks, S.L. | Phone: +34 914250023 Fax: +34 914250136 | email: juan.enrique.gomez@metropoli2000.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- PGP Fingerprint: 6B39 3A2B A17B 1E8E CFFD FC14 678E 0A22 BD80 C486 Public Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xBD80C486 If this message hasn't a correct signature please notify it to juanen@metropoli2000.com. To get the public key please use the above url. Thanks for your help. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Esta parte del mensaje =?ISO-8859-1?Q?est=E1?= firmada digitalmente Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20030723/fdbefde6/attachment.bin From barry at python.org Wed Jul 23 13:46:10 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Wed Jul 23 08:46:11 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bounce processing In-Reply-To: <1058963970.8414.1.camel@amspoke> References: <1058963970.8414.1.camel@amspoke> Message-ID: <1058964336.29634.10.camel@anthem> On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 08:39, Juan Enrique G?mez wrote: > Hi! > > I have been looking how works the bounce daemon, and i see thtat > everytime it processes a bounce, it rewrites the list file complete, is > this possible?, if so i think this is a crazyness cause in lists with > 200k users, every bounce takes tooooo looong... Sorry folks, I've been very very busy lately (vacation, work demands, pylab upheavals, and the upcoming Python 2.3 release). I agree that the bounce processor should be improved to batch things better, and I'll see if I can work out the code for MM2.1.3 after Python 2.3 is released. I'll try to find some time to follow up / catch up on mailman-developers soon too. -Barry ObOptimistic: I was blissfully unconnected on my vacation and rather than read a big Harry Potter book, I took along my laptop. I made some nice progress on MM3 which I'll talk about soon! From les at 2pi.org Wed Jul 23 15:57:54 2003 From: les at 2pi.org (Les Niles) Date: Wed Jul 23 17:57:59 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailpasswds is brittle Message-ID: <200307232157.h6NLvsZ0038683@grumman.kjsl.com> I just ran into a problem with the monthly password reminders. They haven't been going out on some of our lists for several months. I was able to ignore this for quite a while under the theory that it would be fixed when we upgraded from a beta to a final version of mailman. Then we did the upgrade and there still weren't any reminders. Turns out one of the lists has a subscriber who has no password entry; this causes mlist.getMemberPassword() to throw an exception which is not caught, which in turn causes mailpasswds to abruptly exit at that point. For some reason cron didn't email me an exception traceback when this happened, but that's another issue. Anyway, I figured the right fix was to make mailpasswds a little more robust. Here's a patch against the 2.1.2 version, to catch these and possibly other exceptions and report them a little more verbosely. -les les@2pi.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- *** cron/mailpasswds.orig Wed Jun 25 10:28:40 2003 --- cron/mailpasswds Wed Jul 23 11:25:25 2003 *************** *** 136,152 **** for mlist in byhost[host]: listaddr = mlist.GetListEmail() for member in mlist.getMembers(): ! # The user may have disabled reminders for this list ! if mlist.getMemberOption(member, ! mm_cfg.SuppressPasswordReminder): ! continue ! # Group by the lower-cased address, since Mailman always ! # treates person@dom.ain the same as PERSON@dom.ain. ! password = mlist.getMemberPassword(member) ! optionsurl = mlist.GetOptionsURL(member) ! lang = mlist.getMemberLanguage(member) ! info = (listaddr, password, optionsurl, lang) ! userinfo.setdefault(member, []).append(info) # Now that we've collected user information for this host, send each # user the password reminder. for addr in userinfo.keys(): --- 136,159 ---- for mlist in byhost[host]: listaddr = mlist.GetListEmail() for member in mlist.getMembers(): ! try: ! # The user may have disabled reminders for this list ! if mlist.getMemberOption(member, ! mm_cfg.SuppressPasswordReminder): ! continue ! # Group by the lower-cased address, since Mailman always ! # treates person@dom.ain the same as PERSON@dom.ain. ! password = mlist.getMemberPassword(member) ! optionsurl = mlist.GetOptionsURL(member) ! lang = mlist.getMemberLanguage(member) ! info = (listaddr, password, optionsurl, lang) ! userinfo.setdefault(member, []).append(info) ! except: ! err='mailpasswds: Exception %s (member %s, list %s): %s'%\ ! (member, sys.exc_info()[0], mlist.internal_name(), \ ! sys.exc_info()[1]) ! print >> sys.stderr, err ! syslog('error', err) # Now that we've collected user information for this host, send each # user the password reminder. for addr in userinfo.keys(): From barry at python.org Thu Jul 24 03:09:58 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Wed Jul 23 22:09:59 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailpasswds is brittle In-Reply-To: <200307232157.h6NLvsZ0038683@grumman.kjsl.com> References: <200307232157.h6NLvsZ0038683@grumman.kjsl.com> Message-ID: <1059012562.11764.3.camel@anthem> Thanks Les. Note that this is already fixed in CVS (see mailpasswds 2.17), so it'll be part of MM2.1.3. I likely won't get that out until after Python 2.3 is released after the end of this month. Cheers, -Barry From mlucas at rice.edu Thu Jul 24 17:44:44 2003 From: mlucas at rice.edu (Mike Lucas) Date: Thu Jul 24 17:40:59 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Changing the default template for new lists. Message-ID: <3F20534C.1060508@rice.edu> Anyone know how to change the defualt setting for a new list when it is created using the newlist script. Mike From marisa at stat.umn.edu Thu Jul 24 18:56:38 2003 From: marisa at stat.umn.edu (Marisa Riviere) Date: Thu Jul 24 18:56:41 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] moderating with umbrella lists Message-ID: <20030724225638.5F6856CEA@muskrat.stat.umn.edu> I am running mailman 2.1.2. I needed to update to this version in order to have the option for: "List of non-member addresses whose postings should be automatically" working to allow users from my system to write to a set of lists without moderator's approval. My expression to filter users is: ^.*@stat.umn.edu Now that this works I am experimenting with "umbrella" lists. I set up the -owner option in all lists, umbrella list and sublists. Mail from people from my domain "cascades" well trough all the lists but mail from people from other domains which require moderator's action for the initial umbrella list seems to require moderator's action as well in all the sublists. I understand from the documentation that I can set up the lists in a way such that once I approve a messages from a user who is not in the .stat.umn.edu domain for the umbrella list, the messages should "cascade" to the others because of the CC and TO fields. But I can not get this to work! What am I doing wrong? Bellow is a description of my settings. In a set of lists nested as: umbrella | | umbrella1 umbrella2 | | | | people1 people2 people1 people2 I set in all lists the -owner notification option and include the sublists as members. In each sublist I have the field: "Must posts have list named in destination (to, cc) field (or be among the acceptable alias names, specified below)? " set to "Yes" I also set the umbrella list(s) names for each given sublist in: "Alias names (regexps) which qualify as explicit to or cc destination names for this list. " For example in the list called "people1" which For example in the list called "people1" which is a sublist of umbrella1 and umbrella2 this looks like: ^umbrella1@stat.umn.edu ^umbrella2@stat.umn.edu ^umbrella@stat.umn.edu I also did a try with ^.*@stat.umn.edu and without the ^ character, etc. etc. I hope I may be having a problem with how I define expressions for Phyton and I do not need to upgrade again! -- ;) Can any one please help me? Thank you. -- Marisa Riviere U of M - Statistics marisa@stat.umn.edu 612-624-5859 From Daniel.Buchmann at bibsys.no Fri Jul 25 07:32:15 2003 From: Daniel.Buchmann at bibsys.no (Daniel Buchmann) Date: Fri Jul 25 02:32:16 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Changing the default template for new lists. In-Reply-To: <3F20534C.1060508@rice.edu> References: <3F20534C.1060508@rice.edu> Message-ID: <1059114699.2432.2.camel@FORNAX.bibsys.no> On Thu, 2003-07-24 at 23:44, Mike Lucas wrote: > Anyone know how to change the defualt setting for a new list when it is > created using the newlist script. Default settings are specified in mm_cfg.py in the Mailman/ directory. See Defaults.py in the same directory for possible values. :) -Daniel -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20030725/909d083c/attachment.bin From mlucas at rice.edu Fri Jul 25 16:41:26 2003 From: mlucas at rice.edu (Mike Lucas) Date: Fri Jul 25 16:37:24 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] question about scripts. Message-ID: <3F2195F6.9040004@rice.edu> I was wondering is there is a good website with docs on the verious scripts that come with mailman? The ones I am currently working with are newlist, config_list and add_members. Mostly I am looking for a list of all the command line args for these and usage. Thanks, Mike From r.barrett at openinfo.co.uk Fri Jul 25 23:20:50 2003 From: r.barrett at openinfo.co.uk (Richard Barrett) Date: Fri Jul 25 17:21:02 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] question about scripts. In-Reply-To: <3F2195F6.9040004@rice.edu> Message-ID: On Friday, July 25, 2003, at 09:41 PM, Mike Lucas wrote: > I was wondering is there is a good website with docs on the verious > scripts that come with mailman? The ones I am currently working with > are newlist, config_list and add_members. Mostly I am looking for a > list of all the command line args for these and usage. > Cannot help with the website but you can always run these commands with the -h or --help option and they will print their usage. > Thanks, > > Mike From wes at greenfieldnetworks.com Fri Jul 25 15:28:04 2003 From: wes at greenfieldnetworks.com (Wesley T. Perdue) Date: Fri Jul 25 17:28:11 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] question about scripts. In-Reply-To: <3F2195F6.9040004@rice.edu> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030725142403.026a1008@mail.greenfieldnetworks-int.com> Mike, This site has a bit of info: http://www.list.org/site.html As well, add the option -h to any of those commands and you'll get verbose usage info. Finally, you can always check the source; Python is remarkably readable. Regards, Wes At 03:41 PM 7/25/2003 -0500, Mike Lucas wrote: >I was wondering is there is a good website with docs on the verious scripts that come with mailman? The ones I am currently working with are newlist, config_list and add_members. Mostly I am looking for a list of all the command line args for these and usage. > >Thanks, > >Mike From nneul at umr.edu Sat Jul 26 18:10:39 2003 From: nneul at umr.edu (Nathan Neulinger) Date: Sat Jul 26 13:10:40 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] moderating with umbrella lists In-Reply-To: <20030724225638.5F6856CEA@muskrat.stat.umn.edu> References: <20030724225638.5F6856CEA@muskrat.stat.umn.edu> Message-ID: <1059239415.26152.3.camel@nneul-laptop> I don't know how to do this with the base Mailman, but I did submit a patch that makes it real easy. It basically adds the ability to say "allow any members of list X to post to list Y". In the 'list of non-member...' and other similar boxes, it allows you to put '+@listname' to include the membership list in the box. It's dynamic, so it doesn't have to be updated when you add members to other lists. We'll be using this heavily when we migrate from ListServ since the lists here make heavy use of the send option and specifying other list names. As far as I know, nothing was ever done with the patch though. -- Nathan On Thu, 2003-07-24 at 17:56, Marisa Riviere wrote: > I am running mailman 2.1.2. I needed to update to this version > in order to have the option for: > > "List of non-member addresses whose postings should be automatically" > > working to allow users from my system to write to a set of lists > without moderator's approval. > > My expression to filter users is: > > ^.*@stat.umn.edu > > Now that this works I am experimenting with "umbrella" lists. > I set up the -owner option in all lists, umbrella list and > sublists. Mail from people from my domain "cascades" well trough > all the lists but mail from people from other domains which > require moderator's action for the initial umbrella list > seems to require moderator's action as well in all the sublists. > > I understand from the documentation that I can set up the lists > in a way such that once I approve a messages from a user who is > not in the .stat.umn.edu domain for the umbrella list, the > messages should "cascade" to the others because of the CC and TO fields. > > But I can not get this to work! What am I doing wrong? > > Bellow is a description of my settings. > > In a set of lists nested as: > > umbrella > | | > umbrella1 umbrella2 > | | | | > people1 people2 people1 people2 > > > I set in all lists the -owner notification option and include the > sublists as members. In each sublist I have the field: > > "Must posts have list named in destination (to, cc) field (or be among the > acceptable alias names, specified below)? " > > set to "Yes" > > I also set the umbrella list(s) names for each given sublist in: > > "Alias names (regexps) which qualify as explicit to or cc destination > names for this list. " > > For example in the list called "people1" which > > For example in the list called "people1" which > is a sublist of umbrella1 and umbrella2 this looks like: > > ^umbrella1@stat.umn.edu > ^umbrella2@stat.umn.edu > ^umbrella@stat.umn.edu > > I also did a try with > > ^.*@stat.umn.edu > > and without the ^ character, etc. etc. I hope I may be having a problem > with how I define expressions for Phyton and I do not need to upgrade > again! -- ;) > > Can any one please help me? Thank you. -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Nathan Neulinger EMail: nneul@umr.edu University of Missouri - Rolla Phone: (573) 341-4841 Computing Services Fax: (573) 341-4216 From jam at jamux.com Sat Jul 26 19:25:07 2003 From: jam at jamux.com (John A. Martin) Date: Sat Jul 26 18:25:12 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Expire information for Invitations and Confirmations Message-ID: <87oezh0vuk.fsf@athene.jamux.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I have submitted a bug asking for the Invitation and subscription Confirmation messages to contain information indicating when they expire. Folks seem to be confused when they return a stale response. jam -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQE/Iv/AUEvv1b/iXy8RAj7mAJwJw1RyVsUD/CUF2c4KT/srAjsdygCghC+0 h1Msx02qsJwkBRBhE+5oKqg= =pimU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From marco_henriques at yahoo.com.br Mon Jul 28 10:48:43 2003 From: marco_henriques at yahoo.com.br (Marco Antonio Reis Henriques) Date: Mon Jul 28 08:48:55 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] About unadvertised lists Message-ID: <013901c35506$9627c7a0$38053d0a@MARHNTB> Hi ALL ! Folks, how do I create an unadvertised list (a list that don't appear in the list info page) ? Cheers, Marco From john at hdnet.org Mon Jul 28 18:00:07 2003 From: john at hdnet.org (John Kromodimedjo) Date: Mon Jul 28 10:57:52 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Developers in Thailand In-Reply-To: <013901c35506$9627c7a0$38053d0a@MARHNTB> Message-ID: <000001c354ef$09f73a20$2401a8c0@PATTHAI> Hi all, I have posted this message once but never got a proper reply: Does anyone of you know MAILMAN DEVELOPERS in THAILAND? Thanks. John Kromodimedjo Health and Development Networks Chiang Mai, Thailand From kmccann at bellanet.org Mon Jul 28 16:30:48 2003 From: kmccann at bellanet.org (Kevin McCann) Date: Mon Jul 28 11:30:49 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Interfacing to Mailman data In-Reply-To: <1059362380.26800.64.camel@anthem> References: <1057239972.14001.70.camel@anthem> <1058208877.2231.34.camel@getz> <1059362380.26800.64.camel@anthem> Message-ID: <1059406192.1590.157.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi Barry, Hope you had a good vacation. A while ago I mentioned that I was interfacing with Mailman (via PHP) by issuing the /bin commands and parsing the results. As you pointed out, that may not be very efficient, but my rationale is that your scripts are doing the "behind the scenes" things which I want to rely on. A non-parsing but still relevant example: I think you do database locking when, say, creating a new list. For me, the extra process in firing up the /bin command is negligible. It would be nice to not have to parse unwieldy output, though. What about having interface-friendly versions of these commands? So, instead of executing the /bin/list_lists command and getting ... 6 matching mailing lists found: Administrivia - Discussions pertaining to cruciverb web site cruciverb-l - Crossword Constructors Discussion List cwml - Crossword Markup Language List Mailman - [no description available] BQ-Newsletter - The Broken Cue Newsletter Testing - [no description available] ... I could instead execute a different command and get a comma-delimited list: Administrivia,cruciverb-l,cwml,Mailman,BQ-Newsletter,Testing or, get more info if required, such as name, security, description, one record per line: Administrivia,0,Discussions pertaining to cruciverb web site cruciverb-l,0,Crossword Constructors Discussion List cwml,1,Crossword Markup Language List Mailman,0,[no description available] Newsletter,0,The Broken Cue Newsletter Testing,1,[no description available] And it would be most sublime to be able to issue the list_config command and have it work with stdin/stdout instead of files and using the same kind of delimited layout as shown above. I know you're a busy guy. So how can I help? I'm not a Python programmer yet but I'm willing to become one to get these kinds of things to happen. Could you help me get started by indicating what files I would need to copy and then modify to, say, create an interface-friendly version of list_lists? Best, Kevin McCann From mlucas at rice.edu Mon Jul 28 11:45:06 2003 From: mlucas at rice.edu (Mike Lucas) Date: Mon Jul 28 11:41:11 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] question about using the email interface. Message-ID: <3F254502.20709@rice.edu> Sorry for another dumb question, I am new to mailman and listservers in general. I was testing the moderation of a list and noticed that when the owner got a message saying that a new message was needing to be approved. It would not have the right subject or reply to fields for me to just hit the reply button and add "approved password" to the body. When i hit reply i have to then copy and paste the subject line from the attachment and the to field from the attacment also. So, my question is, where can i change this so it will let me just hit the reply button and either leave it as is to delete the mail or add Approved password to release it to the list. Thanks for the help, Mike From Dale at Newfield.org Mon Jul 28 12:42:32 2003 From: Dale at Newfield.org (Dale Newfield) Date: Mon Jul 28 11:43:05 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Interfacing to Mailman data In-Reply-To: <1059406192.1590.157.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1057239972.14001.70.camel@anthem> <1058208877.2231.34.camel@getz> <1059362380.26800.64.camel@anthem> <1059406192.1590.157.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jul 2003, Kevin McCann wrote: > I know you're a busy guy. So how can I help? Great--that's the whole point of the open source movement. If it doesn't do what you need, you are free to make modifications. If you feel your modifications would be generally useful, please consider donating them back to the commuity that provided the original tool. > I'm not a Python programmer yet but I'm willing to become one to get > these kinds of things to happen. Luckily python is a very easy langauge to learn. > Could you help me get started by indicating what files I would need to > copy and then modify to, say, create an interface-friendly version of > list_lists? Believe it or not, the answer to that question is the file named "list_lists" located in the bin directory. Good Luck! --- Dale Newfield "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, on the Statue of Liberty From terri at zone12.com Mon Jul 28 18:05:25 2003 From: terri at zone12.com (Terri Oda) Date: Mon Jul 28 17:01:28 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] question about using the email interface. In-Reply-To: <3F254502.20709@rice.edu> References: <3F254502.20709@rice.edu> Message-ID: <20030728210525.GF612@ostraya.zone12.com> On Mon, Jul 28, 2003 at 10:45:06AM -0500, Mike Lucas wrote: > So, my question is, where can i change this so it will let me just hit > the reply button and either leave it as is to delete the mail or add > Approved password to release it to the list. I do this by replying to the attachment rather than the sent message, but this may be a function of my mail program (mutt) that yours doesn't have. What are you using? Someone might be able to give you a similar shortcut. Terri From fil at rezo.net Tue Jul 29 00:06:37 2003 From: fil at rezo.net (Fil) Date: Mon Jul 28 17:06:41 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] question about using the email interface. In-Reply-To: <20030728210525.GF612@ostraya.zone12.com> References: <3F254502.20709@rice.edu> <20030728210525.GF612@ostraya.zone12.com> Message-ID: <20030728210637.GD15812@rezo.net> > > So, my question is, where can i change this so it will let me just hit > > the reply button and either leave it as is to delete the mail or add > > Approved password to release it to the list. > > I do this by replying to the attachment rather than the sent message, but > this may be a function of my mail program (mutt) that yours doesn't have. I do 'mutt' too on the attachment, but to my knowledge it is used in Mailman *only to refuse* the mail, not to accept it. To accept it you need to click on the web interface (and I think it's nice that way, except that the message you reply to in order to refuse a message is titled "confirm ..."). -- Fil From mlucas at rice.edu Mon Jul 28 17:42:08 2003 From: mlucas at rice.edu (Mike Lucas) Date: Mon Jul 28 17:38:14 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] question about using the email interface. In-Reply-To: <20030728210637.GD15812@rezo.net> References: <3F254502.20709@rice.edu> <20030728210525.GF612@ostraya.zone12.com> <20030728210637.GD15812@rezo.net> Message-ID: <3F2598B0.6040205@rice.edu> First, we have users using everything from Pine/mutt to Eudora/outlook and everything in between for mail clients. Second, the email that Mailman sends says you can use the reply to accept the message or delete it. the problem is that the message that mailman sends only says to reply to the message and either leave it unchanged to delete or add approved to accept the message. Nothing about having to do anything with the attachment or change the to field or subject line. So my questing is can we change what the email says or change the way it sends the email so a standard reply will work. If this is not clear our users will not be happy :(. Mike Lucas Sr. Systems Admin. Rice University Fil wrote: >>>So, my question is, where can i change this so it will let me just hit >>>the reply button and either leave it as is to delete the mail or add >>>Approved password to release it to the list. >> >>I do this by replying to the attachment rather than the sent message, but >>this may be a function of my mail program (mutt) that yours doesn't have. > > > I do 'mutt' too on the attachment, but to my knowledge it is used in Mailman > *only to refuse* the mail, not to accept it. To accept it you need to click > on the web interface (and I think it's nice that way, except that the > message you reply to in order to refuse a message is titled "confirm ..."). > > -- Fil > > > _______________________________________________ > Mailman-Developers mailing list > Mailman-Developers@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers From mikael.sjoblom at sr.se Tue Jul 22 16:04:36 2003 From: mikael.sjoblom at sr.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mikael=20Sj=F6blom?=) Date: Mon Jul 28 18:33:16 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Ang: [Mailman-Announce] [Fwd: [Mailman-cabal] Linux Expo UK 2003 - .OrgVillage Free Space for Mailman] (Semester) Message-ID: Hej Jag har semester till den 11 Augusti. Vid akuta ?rende kontakta Henrik St?hle From mikael.sjoblom at sr.se Tue Jul 22 16:04:36 2003 From: mikael.sjoblom at sr.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mikael=20Sj=F6blom?=) Date: Mon Jul 28 18:33:21 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Ang: [Mailman-Announce] [Fwd: [Mailman-cabal] Linux Expo UK 2003 - .OrgVillage Free Space for Mailman] (Semester) Message-ID: Hej Jag har semester till den 11 Augusti. Vid akuta ?rende kontakta Henrik St?hle >>> "mailman-developers@python.org" 07/22/03 14:54 >>> This sounds like an interesting opportunity to get some more Mailman exposure. I won't be able to attend, but if any of our UK or Euro friends are planning to, would you be willing to volunteer a little time at the booth? If so, please let me and Brian know (I don't know what all is involved, other than shouting at the top of your lungs every five minutes: "Mailman Rocks!" :) -Barry From Workonly3126 at aol.com Tue Jul 22 11:02:32 2003 From: Workonly3126 at aol.com (Workonly3126@aol.com) Date: Mon Jul 28 18:33:27 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Announce] [Fwd: [Mailman-cabal] Linux Expo UK 2003 - .Org Villag... Message-ID: <6f.3b0be5fb.2c4e9df8@aol.com> I have no idea what this is:)[Unable to display image]Jaimie 419-438-0877 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 7728 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20030722/fd1a2421/attachment-0002.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 59252 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/attachments/20030722/fd1a2421/attachment-0003.jpg From zeratul2 at wanadoo.es Tue Jul 22 20:26:54 2003 From: zeratul2 at wanadoo.es (Robert Millan) Date: Mon Jul 28 18:33:32 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bug in HTML parsing (in list archives) Message-ID: <20030722192654.GA828@aragorn> It seems that HTML links are not parsed properly by mailman for the list archives. In the following message (bug-grub): http://mail.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-grub/2003-07/msg00040.html There are two links but they point to the URL of the archived message itself instead of the real target of the link as intended by the mail author. -- Robert Millan From bah5576 at yahoo.fr Thu Jul 24 13:24:43 2003 From: bah5576 at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bah=20Alpha=20Amadou?=) Date: Mon Jul 28 18:33:36 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Announce] [Fwd: [Mailman-cabal] Linux Expo UK 2003 - .Org Village Free Space for Mailman] In-Reply-To: <1058878461.27675.31.camel@anthem> Message-ID: <20030724102443.22936.qmail@web41011.mail.yahoo.com> Hello I'm interested in your offer, please how you work in the expo. bye ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From ato at northwestern.edu Fri Jul 25 16:54:38 2003 From: ato at northwestern.edu (M Atakan Gurkan) Date: Mon Jul 28 18:33:40 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] question about scripts. In-Reply-To: <3F2195F6.9040004@rice.edu>; from mlucas@rice.edu on Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 03:41:26PM -0500 References: <3F2195F6.9040004@rice.edu> Message-ID: <20030725155438.A2941@chinook.phys.northwestern.edu> On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 03:41:26PM -0500, Mike Lucas wrote: > I was wondering is there is a good website with docs on the verious > scripts that come with mailman? The ones I am currently working with > are newlist, config_list and add_members. Mostly I am looking for a > list of all the command line args for these and usage. > > Thanks, > > Mike I don't know if you tried already, but --help option provides some information. ato From lists at RichRamos.com Sat Jul 26 14:30:21 2003 From: lists at RichRamos.com (Rich Ramos) Date: Mon Jul 28 18:33:43 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] LDAP authentication support Message-ID: <2147483647.1059226221@[10.0.2.5]> In looking through the archives I have seen much discussion on LDAP but nothing the really says if and when LDAP authentication will be integrated. This thread started talking about LDAP integration and turned into Barry saying that there would be some sort of CMS integration in 3.0. And there seems to be some kind of alpha version of LDAP member adaptor that allows for "population" of list membership from and LDAP server. However,... We currently have a Domino server and want to integrate it with Mailman mailing lists, but don't want users to have to keep two separate user ids and passwords. Any plans on integrating mailman with LDAP authentication? -Rich From brad.knowles at skynet.be Tue Jul 29 01:17:37 2003 From: brad.knowles at skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Mon Jul 28 18:33:49 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] question about using the email interface. In-Reply-To: <3F2598B0.6040205@rice.edu> References: <3F254502.20709@rice.edu> <20030728210525.GF612@ostraya.zone12.com> <20030728210637.GD15812@rezo.net> <3F2598B0.6040205@rice.edu> Message-ID: At 4:42 PM -0500 2003/07/28, Mike Lucas wrote: > So my questing is can we change what the email says or change the way > it sends the email so a standard reply will work. If this is not > clear our users will not be happy :(. "Standard Reply" from what program? Many MUAs are broken (especially those from Microsoft), and they will not do the correct thing pretty much no matter what. If you try to tune the list for a particular MUA, you usually end up breaking it for most everyone else. The mailman authors have gone to some fairly significant lengths to be as broadly compatible as possible. I'm not sure that this can be improved, unless you have a specific user community that you can afford to customize for, at the cost of anyone using anything else. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From barry at python.org Mon Jul 28 23:35:55 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon Jul 28 18:35:56 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Announce] [Fwd: [Mailman-cabal] Linux Expo UK 2003 - .Org Villag... In-Reply-To: <6f.3b0be5fb.2c4e9df8@aol.com> References: <6f.3b0be5fb.2c4e9df8@aol.com> Message-ID: <1059431718.32019.133.camel@yyz> On Tue, 2003-07-22 at 10:02, Workonly3126@aol.com wrote: > I have no idea what this is:)[Unable to display image]Jaimie 419-438-0877 > > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > Mailman-Developers mailing list > Mailman-Developers@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Wauugh! Sorry folks, I was too quick to approve a few messages. :( -Barry From claw at kanga.nu Mon Jul 28 20:33:00 2003 From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Mon Jul 28 19:33:04 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] LDAP authentication support In-Reply-To: Message from Rich Ramos of "Sat, 26 Jul 2003 13:30:21 PDT." <2147483647.1059226221@[10.0.2.5]> References: <2147483647.1059226221@[10.0.2.5]> Message-ID: <8293.1059435180@kanga.nu> On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 13:30:21 -0700 Rich Ramos wrote: > In looking through the archives I have seen much discussion on LDAP > but nothing the really says if and when LDAP authentication will be > integrated. Nobody has written either a patch or roster-plugin yet. Care to write one? -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From mch at cix.compulink.co.uk Tue Jul 29 02:02:00 2003 From: mch at cix.compulink.co.uk (Mike Holderness) Date: Mon Jul 28 20:02:22 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Hotmail - claims mail loop Message-ID: 'Scuse me asking in mailman-developers, but I think it's where I'm most likely to get an answer. I'm running a list on mailman 2.0.6 with what I think is a generic setup - it's on the machine of a small ISP and not under my control. [CC: support@gn.apc.org - who will be as interested as I to find out what's going on.] A subset of users@hotmail.com are generating error messages as below. I have looked in the archive and found the HellMail thread in mailman-users. But this list isn't set up like the one discussed there. It has: "Hide the sender of a message, replacing it..." = FALSE "Where are replies to list messages directed?" = This list A default-setting Hotmail account that I set up for testing received the welcome message and four subsequent messages OK, then bounced as recorded below. Hotmail claims a loop, but I see no evidence of one... though it does seem to be bouncing around a lot inside the ISP's machines. One odd thing is that there are 27 hotmail users subscribed, and only the 15 listed below are bouncing. Other lists that I run on the same host have the same settings as above and seemed to be getting through to hotmail last week, though they're much lower-traffic. Can someone who understand SMTP properly scan the following and provide me with a clue? Is the only answer to direct replies to the individual sender, and attempt to indoctrinate users with the resulting changes? (These are sub-editors - line-editors in Westpondian - so they're not all very good at precise readings when not paid so to be!) Mike Holderness -x------------------------------------------------------------------------ X-From_: uksubs-l-admin@gn.apc.org Mon Jul 28 20:55:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: uksubs-l-admin@seven.gn.apc.org Delivered-To: uksubs-l-admin@gn.apc.org From: postmaster@mail.hotmail.com To: uksubs-l-admin@gn.apc.org Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:54:50 -0700 Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gn.apc.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gn.apc.org Sender: uksubs-l-owner@gn.apc.org Errors-To: uksubs-l-owner@gn.apc.org X-BeenThere: uksubs-l@gn.apc.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.6 List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Sub-editors discuss terms, conditions and work List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gn.apc.org This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. Unable to deliver message to the following recipients, because the message was forwarded more than the maximum allowed times. This could indicate a mail loop. USER1@hotmail.com USER2@hotmail.com USER3@hotmail.com USER4@hotmail.com USER5@hotmail.com USER6@hotmail.com USER7@hotmail.com USER8@hotmail.com USER9@hotmail.com USERa@hotmail.com USERb@hotmail.com USERc@hotmail.com USERd@hotmail.com uksubstest@hotmail.com Reporting-MTA: dns;mc7-s1.law1.hotmail.com Received-From-MTA: dns;mc7-f40.law1.hotmail.com Arrival-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:54:50 -0700 Original-Recipient: Final-Recipient: rfc822;USER1@hotmail.com Action: failed Status: 4.4.6 Original-Recipient: Final-Recipient: rfc822;USER2@hotmail.com Action: failed Status: 4.4.6 Original-Recipient: Final-Recipient: rfc822;USER3@hotmail.com Action: failed Status: 4.4.6 Original-Recipient: Final-Recipient: rfc822;USER4@hotmail.com Action: failed Status: 4.4.6 Original-Recipient: Final-Recipient: rfc822;USER5@hotmail.com Action: failed Status: 4.4.6 Original-Recipient: Final-Recipient: rfc822;USER6@hotmail.com Action: failed Status: 4.4.6 Original-Recipient: Final-Recipient: rfc822;USER7@hotmail.com Action: failed Status: 4.4.6 Original-Recipient: Final-Recipient: rfc822;USER8@hotmail.com Action: failed Status: 4.4.6 Original-Recipient: Final-Recipient: rfc822;USER9@hotmail.com Action: failed Status: 4.4.6 Original-Recipient: Final-Recipient: rfc822;USERa@hotmail.com Action: failed Status: 4.4.6 Original-Recipient: Final-Recipient: rfc822;USERb@hotmail.com Action: failed Status: 4.4.6 Original-Recipient: Final-Recipient: rfc822;USERc@hotmail.com Action: failed Status: 4.4.6 Original-Recipient: Final-Recipient: rfc822;USERd@hotmail.com Action: failed Status: 4.4.6 Original-Recipient: Final-Recipient: rfc822;uksubstest@hotmail.com Action: failed Status: 4.4.6 Received: from mc7-f40.law1.hotmail.com ([65.54.253.47]) by mc7-s1.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); 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Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:35:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from Cathyforman@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.129.2eba33ce (4402) for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2003 14:35:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Cathyforman@aol.com Message-ID: <129.2eba33ce.2c56c6d6@aol.com> Subject: Re: [UkSubs] Late payments To: uksubs-l@gn.apc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gn.apc.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gn.apc.org Sender: uksubs-l-admin@gn.apc.org Errors-To: uksubs-l-admin@gn.apc.org X-BeenThere: uksubs-l@gn.apc.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.6 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: uksubs-l@gn.apc.org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Sub-editors discuss terms, conditions and work List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 14:35:02 EDT X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gn.apc.org Return-Path: uksubs-l-admin@gn.apc.org X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2003 19:54:12.0868 (UTC) FILETIME=[04873C40:01C35542] Message content was here -x------------------------------------------------------------------------ From claw at kanga.nu Mon Jul 28 22:17:58 2003 From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Mon Jul 28 21:18:02 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] draft-moore-auto-email-response-01 (fwd) Message-ID: <9919.1059441478@kanga.nu> From: Keith Moore Newsgroups: gmane.ietf.rfc822 Subject: draft-moore-auto-email-response-01 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:10:07 -0400 After over a year's delay, I've finally revised my recommendations for automatic email responders. I just sent them to the internet-draft folks (in both text and PDF for the ASCII-impaired). Or you can get the preprint at any of: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/I-D/draft-moore-auto-email-response-01.txt http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/I-D/draft-moore-auto-email-response-01.ps http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/I-D/draft-moore-auto-email-response-01.pdf I've tried to address the comments that were made when the -00 version came out (well, those I didn't totally disagree with :), but the changes are too numerous for me to summarize at this point. Keith From brad.knowles at skynet.be Tue Jul 29 03:17:18 2003 From: brad.knowles at skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Tue Jul 29 03:27:41 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Hotmail - claims mail loop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:02 AM +0100 2003/07/29, Mike Holderness wrote: > A default-setting Hotmail account > that I set up for testing received the welcome message and > four subsequent messages OK, then bounced as recorded below. > Hotmail claims a loop, but I see no evidence of one... > though it does seem to be bouncing around a lot inside > the ISP's machines. Note that MTAs have to look at the number of "Received:" headers that are on messages, and if the count is higher than a certain threshold, they will assume that there is a mail loop and bounce the message. Many MTAs place this threshold at around seventeen hops. It would seem to me that your ISP is screwing you around by the way they are passing around e-mail internally to their network. Get them to clean up their internal routing of e-mail, and this problem should go away. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Jul 29 22:58:58 2003 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Tue Jul 29 22:59:15 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Python 2.3 ? Message-ID: <20030730025858.GM1593@mrbill.net> Is it safe to upgrade to Python 2.3 from 2.2.2 with an existing MailMan installation without breaking things? Bill -- bill bradford mrbill@mrbill.net austin, texas From barry at python.org Wed Jul 30 06:59:11 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Wed Jul 30 01:59:12 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Python 2.3 ? In-Reply-To: <20030730025858.GM1593@mrbill.net> References: <20030730025858.GM1593@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <1059544715.11624.66.camel@anthem> On Tue, 2003-07-29 at 22:58, Bill Bradford wrote: > Is it safe to upgrade to Python 2.3 from 2.2.2 with an existing MailMan > installation without breaking things? I'm sad to say I haven't had a lick of time to thoroughly test this. I /think/ it should be okay, but I'm updating my personal servers now so I can eat my own dog food. -Barry From brad.knowles at skynet.be Wed Jul 30 19:05:41 2003 From: brad.knowles at skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Wed Jul 30 12:25:04 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd: [Mailman-Users] Bi-directional news gateway? Message-ID: Folks, I sent this to the mailman-users mailing list, and didn't get a useful answer. Is there someone on this list who may be more familiar with this issue? --- begin forwarded text Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:27:00 +0200 To: mailman-users@python.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bi-directional news gateway? Sender: mailman-users-bounces+brad=stop.mail-abuse.org@python.org Folks, Okay, question time. I've set up a bi-directional gateway with the newsgroup comp.protocols.time.ntp. I can post to the mailing list and have that go through to the newsgroup just fine. However, I subscribed myself to the mailing list, and I'm not getting any of the postings to the newsgroup sent to me. Is there a cron job that I've missed, or some other advice you can give me regarding the setup of bi-directional news gateways? Thanks! -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From barry at python.org Wed Jul 30 17:32:15 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Wed Jul 30 12:32:16 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd: [Mailman-Users] Bi-directional news gateway? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1059582699.30752.89.camel@yyz> On Wed, 2003-07-30 at 12:05, Brad Knowles wrote: > Is there a cron job that I've missed, or some other advice you > can give me regarding the setup of bi-directional news gateways? Yes. cron/gate_news is the script you need to run to pull stuff off the news server. -Barry From marco_henriques at yahoo.com.br Wed Jul 30 15:11:21 2003 From: marco_henriques at yahoo.com.br (Marco Antonio Reis Henriques) Date: Wed Jul 30 13:11:35 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fw: About unadvertised lists Message-ID: <01a301c356bd$9e4e5fd0$38053d0a@MARHNTB> Folks, I sent this to the mailman-users mailing list, and didn't get a useful answer. Is there someone on this list who may be more familiar with this issue? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marco Antonio Reis Henriques" To: Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 9:48 AM Subject: About unadvertised lists > Hi ALL ! > > Folks, how do I create an unadvertised list (a list that don't appear in the > list info page) ? > > Cheers, > > Marco > From chris at jellybaby.net Wed Jul 30 19:32:09 2003 From: chris at jellybaby.net (Chris Boulter) Date: Wed Jul 30 13:32:13 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fw: About unadvertised lists In-Reply-To: <01a301c356bd$9e4e5fd0$38053d0a@MARHNTB> References: <01a301c356bd$9e4e5fd0$38053d0a@MARHNTB> Message-ID: <20030730173209.GA51606@jellybaby.net> On Wed 2003-07-30 14:11:21 -0300, Marco Antonio Reis Henriques wrote: > I sent this to the mailman-users mailing list, and didn't get a > useful answer. Is there someone on this list who may be more > familiar with this issue? > > > Folks, how do I create an unadvertised list (a list that don't appear in > > the list info page) ? >From the Mailman web interface, go to the admin page for your list. Click 'Privacy options'. The first item on the list is 'Advertise this list when people ask what lists are on this machine?' and you can just set this to 'No'. Easy! If you're configuring Mailman from the command line, you could use bin/config_list and set the 'advertised' property to 0. If you want this to apply to all your lists by default, you could set the option for your whole site by editing Mailman's mm_cfg.py. Hope this helps. -- Write friendlier email : http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mail/edit.html Certify your signature : http://sig.jellybaby.net/ [101f42d9ex623] From chris at jellybaby.net Wed Jul 30 19:38:28 2003 From: chris at jellybaby.net (Chris Boulter) Date: Wed Jul 30 13:39:17 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Interfacing to Mailman data In-Reply-To: <1059406192.1590.157.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1057239972.14001.70.camel@anthem> <1058208877.2231.34.camel@getz> <1059362380.26800.64.camel@anthem> <1059406192.1590.157.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20030730173828.GB51606@jellybaby.net> On Mon 2003-07-28 11:29:52 -0400, Kevin McCann wrote: > A while ago I mentioned that I was interfacing with Mailman (via PHP) by > issuing the /bin commands and parsing the results. I get the feeling a lot of people are doing this. > What about having interface-friendly versions of these commands? So, > instead of executing the /bin/list_lists command and getting ... ... > ... I could instead execute a different command and get a > comma-delimited list. This would help with your parsing, but isn't as good as a proper API. Mailman 3 should address this problem, from Barry's postings in this thread: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2003-July/thread.html#15383 So, as the other poster who replied to your mail said, you could address the problem yourself and try to contribute your improvements, but it doesn't sound like they'll be useful for Mailman in the longer run. Incidentally, as far as list_lists goes, the --bare parameter will give you output which is more machine-friendly than the default. -- Write friendlier email : http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mail/edit.html Certify your signature : http://sig.jellybaby.net/ [101f42d9ex623] From kmccann at bellanet.org Wed Jul 30 19:12:04 2003 From: kmccann at bellanet.org (Kevin McCann) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:12:05 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Interfacing to Mailman data In-Reply-To: <20030730173828.GB51606@jellybaby.net> References: <1057239972.14001.70.camel@anthem> <1058208877.2231.34.camel@getz> <1059362380.26800.64.camel@anthem> <1059406192.1590.157.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20030730173828.GB51606@jellybaby.net> Message-ID: <1059588685.1590.208.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2003-07-30 at 13:38, Chris Boulter wrote: > On Mon 2003-07-28 11:29:52 -0400, Kevin McCann wrote: > > A while ago I mentioned that I was interfacing with Mailman (via PHP) by > > issuing the /bin commands and parsing the results. > > I get the feeling a lot of people are doing this. > > > What about having interface-friendly versions of these commands? So, > > instead of executing the /bin/list_lists command and getting ... > ... > > ... I could instead execute a different command and get a > > comma-delimited list. > > This would help with your parsing, but isn't as good as a proper API. > Mailman 3 should address this problem, from Barry's postings in this thread: > > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2003-July/thread.html#15383 Right. But it was from that thread in which I read the following: ====== that's the most expedient way to hook Mailman up to foreign systems. I /would/ however like to have some requirements for that hookup so we can tailor the scripts to those specific needs. For example, the current crop of scripts in bin/ were written primarily to solve a problem that the human operator was having. That may not be the most efficient or useful interface for hooking two programs up. -Barry ======= Which is what my post was based on. It sounded like there was going to be an effort to whip up some versions of the /bin commands that would do the kinds of things I was talking about. But Barry also indicated he wanted input with regard to the requirements. And I also know he's already got a lot on his plate. But I do sense that it's not just little ol' me that could benefit from a set of modified /bin commands. And I'd like to help in this exercise in any way I can. > So, as the other poster who replied to your mail said, you could address the > problem yourself and try to contribute your improvements, but it doesn't > sound like they'll be useful for Mailman in the longer run. Version 3 could be a long way away. I do need to take the other approach. If an API eventually comes to fruition, all the good, and I'll make the adjustments in my PHP app when that happens. > Incidentally, as far as list_lists goes, the --bare parameter will give you > output which is more machine-friendly than the default. Yes, I saw that. Unfortunately it does not return the list description, which I sometimes need. I'm going to dig in and see what I can get done and will certainly share ouptuts that might be of value to others.. Cheers, Kevin From brad.knowles at skynet.be Wed Jul 30 21:12:47 2003 From: brad.knowles at skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:14:28 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd: [Mailman-Users] Bi-directional news gateway? In-Reply-To: <1059582699.30752.89.camel@yyz> References: <1059582699.30752.89.camel@yyz> Message-ID: At 12:31 PM -0400 2003/07/30, Barry Warsaw wrote: >> Is there a cron job that I've missed, or some other advice you >> can give me regarding the setup of bi-directional news gateways? > > Yes. cron/gate_news is the script you need to run to pull stuff off the > news server. Ahh, okay. Must have missed that in the documentation or the FAQ. Trying this out now. I'll let you know how things go. Thanks! -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From marco_henriques at yahoo.com.br Wed Jul 30 18:28:10 2003 From: marco_henriques at yahoo.com.br (Marco Antonio Reis Henriques) Date: Wed Jul 30 16:28:23 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fw: About unadvertised lists References: <01a301c356bd$9e4e5fd0$38053d0a@MARHNTB> <20030730173209.GA51606@jellybaby.net> Message-ID: <05d901c356d9$1bed3bd0$38053d0a@MARHNTB> Sorry folks and specially Chris. I was betray by mailman translation from English to Portuguese . "Advertise this list when people ask what lists are on this machine?" in Portuguese is like "Inform this list when people ask what lists are on this machine?" in English and, from my agreement, inform is to notice every user in list about somebody trying get information about list from email command interface, for example. Anyway, sorry folks and thanks. Cheers, Marco ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Boulter" To: "Marco Antonio Reis Henriques" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:32 PM Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] Fw: About unadvertised lists > On Wed 2003-07-30 14:11:21 -0300, Marco Antonio Reis Henriques wrote: > > I sent this to the mailman-users mailing list, and didn't get a > > useful answer. Is there someone on this list who may be more > > familiar with this issue? > > > > > Folks, how do I create an unadvertised list (a list that don't appear in > > > the list info page) ? > > From the Mailman web interface, go to the admin page for your list. Click > 'Privacy options'. The first item on the list is 'Advertise this list when > people ask what lists are on this machine?' and you can just set this to > 'No'. Easy! > > If you're configuring Mailman from the command line, you could use > bin/config_list and set the 'advertised' property to 0. If you want this to > apply to all your lists by default, you could set the option for your whole > site by editing Mailman's mm_cfg.py. > > Hope this helps. > > -- > Write friendlier email : http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mail/edit.html > Certify your signature : http://sig.jellybaby.net/ [101f42d9ex623] From barry at python.org Wed Jul 30 21:33:05 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Wed Jul 30 16:33:06 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fw: About unadvertised lists In-Reply-To: <05d901c356d9$1bed3bd0$38053d0a@MARHNTB> References: <01a301c356bd$9e4e5fd0$38053d0a@MARHNTB> <20030730173209.GA51606@jellybaby.net> <05d901c356d9$1bed3bd0$38053d0a@MARHNTB> Message-ID: <1059597150.30752.130.camel@yyz> On Wed, 2003-07-30 at 16:28, Marco Antonio Reis Henriques wrote: > Sorry folks and specially Chris. > I was betray by mailman translation from English to Portuguese . > "Advertise this list when people ask what lists are on this machine?" in > Portuguese is like "Inform this list when people ask what lists are on this > machine?" in English and, from my agreement, inform is to notice every user > in list about somebody trying get information about list from email command > interface, for example. > Anyway, sorry folks and thanks. > > Cheers, > > Marco Marco, you might want to contact the mailman-i18n list, or the Portuguese translation team directly, to suggest an improvement here. -Barry From brad.knowles at skynet.be Thu Jul 31 00:45:05 2003 From: brad.knowles at skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Wed Jul 30 17:50:34 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd: [Mailman-Users] Bi-directional news gateway? In-Reply-To: <1059582699.30752.89.camel@yyz> References: <1059582699.30752.89.camel@yyz> Message-ID: At 12:31 PM -0400 2003/07/30, Barry Warsaw wrote: > Yes. cron/gate_news is the script you need to run to pull stuff off the > news server. Indeed. This did the trick. The mailing list questions@ntp.org is now working, as a bi-directional gateway to comp.protocols.time.ntp. Thanks again! -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From rb at islandnet.com Wed Jul 30 19:11:21 2003 From: rb at islandnet.com (Ron Brogden) Date: Wed Jul 30 21:11:28 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] a template "arrrgh...." In-Reply-To: <20030730025858.GM1593@mrbill.net> References: <20030730025858.GM1593@mrbill.net> Message-ID: Howdy. I just upgraded to the latest 2.1.2 stable source (I had been running the last beta previously). After upgrading, as expected all template files got stomped on so I set about recreating them as appropriate. After doing so however I have two stumpers which looking at the source code for the archiver (and various other files), I am stumped to solve. The first issue is that specifically "templates/en/options.html" does not seem to be honoured. It is either looking in the wrong place (wrong language maybe) or doing something completely unknown. I can change the template but it does not affect what the CGI scripts ultimately display. Looking at the code suggests that this should behave no differently than say, "listinfo.html" (which works fine) but damned if I can figure out why this is happening. The second issue which has me really embarrassed because I know I licked it once is that I cannot figure out where the headers for the archives are coming from. Sometime in the past I figured out how to change these but now the updated templates from "templates/en/" are not consulted when the archives get updated (i.e .when a new message comes in it uses an old template) nor can I find where this template lives. The source suggests that there may be some caching happening (going by class/function names) but I have not been able to narrow it down from there. I am guessing it they are either in a db file somewhere or outside the Mailman tree but I am lost finding 'em (grepping and running find has not been able to track them down). No errors show in the logs either for the record. Any suggestions on how to nail either of these frustrating template issues greatly appreciated. Cheers, Ron From brad.knowles at skynet.be Thu Jul 31 14:12:47 2003 From: brad.knowles at skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Thu Jul 31 07:13:21 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd: [Mailman-Users] Bi-directional news gateway? In-Reply-To: <1059582699.30752.89.camel@yyz> References: <1059582699.30752.89.camel@yyz> Message-ID: At 12:31 PM -0400 2003/07/30, Barry Warsaw wrote: > On Wed, 2003-07-30 at 12:05, Brad Knowles wrote: > >> Is there a cron job that I've missed, or some other advice you >> can give me regarding the setup of bi-directional news gateways? > > Yes. cron/gate_news is the script you need to run to pull stuff off the > news server. Okay, next question -- how do I auto-approve all posts coming from the newsgroup, while still applying the Privacy Options, Sender Filters to messages being sent via e-mail? -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From marco_henriques at yahoo.com.br Thu Jul 31 10:01:30 2003 From: marco_henriques at yahoo.com.br (Marco Antonio Reis Henriques) Date: Thu Jul 31 08:01:39 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Problems archving emails Message-ID: <00a701c3575b$7cd37860$38053d0a@MARHNTB> Hi Folks, When a user from a list send an e-mail with specific MIME format, this message is been saved like attachment and it didn't show in web interface files archive. The error log file show this: Jul 30 16:22:46 2003 (10639) uncaught archiver exception at filepos: 0 Jul 30 16:22:46 2003 (10639) Uncaught runner exception: [Errno 1] Operation not permitted: '/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/gncoc-l/attachments/20030730/e60f6c35' Jul 30 16:22:46 2003 (10639) Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 105, in _oneloop self._onefile(msg, msgdata) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 155, in _onefile keepqueued = self._dispose(mlist, msg, msgdata) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py", line 73, in _dispose mlist.ArchiveMail(msg) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 206, in ArchiveMail h.processUnixMailbox(f) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 544, in processUnixMailbox m = mbox.next() File "/usr/pkg/lib/python2.2/mailbox.py", line 34, in next return self.factory(_Subfile(self.fp, start, stop)) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Mailbox.py", line 79, in scrubber return mailbox.scrub(msg) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Mailbox.py", line 99, in scrub return self._scrubber(self._mlist, msg) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 185, in process url = save_attachment(mlist, part, dir, filter_html=0) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 300, in save_attachment makedirs(fsdir) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 294, in makedirs os.path.walk(dir, twiddle, None) File "/usr/pkg/lib/python2.2/posixpath.py", line 279, in walk func(arg, top, names) File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Scrubber.py", line 293, in twiddle os.chmod(dirname, 02775) OSError: [Errno 1] Operation not permitted: '/usr/local/mailman/archives/private/gncoc-l/attachments/20030730/e60f6c35' Jul 30 16:22:46 2003 (10639) SHUNTING: 1059592963.5881079+ac76b8c099a721b82bdb4ea4bc00e52f0665821e Someone could help me ?!? Thanks again. Cheers, Marco From charlie at begeistert.org Thu Jul 31 19:22:02 2003 From: charlie at begeistert.org (Charlie Clark) Date: Thu Jul 31 12:21:44 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] More efficient processing of unknown addresses possible? Message-ID: <20030731182202.9310.15@wonderland.1059642690.fake> Dear list, I was going through the bounce log and came across a few lines which made me scratch my head: Jul 30 19:09:55 2003 (16079) bounce message with non-members of mail-news: lucinda.healey@chhm.com Jul 30 19:24:15 2003 (16079) bounce message with non-members of mail-news: ".slob85"@hotmail.com checking the addresses indiviually I found that they were part of our lists. So I did some research (asked the local guru) who passed me following snippet. if not foundp: # It means an address was recognized but it wasn't an address # that's on any mailing list at this site. BAW: don't forward # these, but do log it. syslog('bounce', 'bounce message with non-members of %s: %s', listname, COMMASPACE.join(addrs)) Quite clearly to me the addresses in question need to be stripped() and unquoted when compared with existing addresses; it seems quoting is necessary for all addresses which begin or end in "." This might improve Mailman's bounce recognition considerably. There were other things I came across which might also be possible but would require considerably more complex to implement. I'm not very good with CVS or code in general so I would have to submit a function or module patch en bloc to someone who knows what to do with it. Charlie From rb at islandnet.com Thu Jul 31 14:16:21 2003 From: rb at islandnet.com (Ron Brogden) Date: Thu Jul 31 16:16:27 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] a template "arrrgh...." In-Reply-To: References: <20030730025858.GM1593@mrbill.net> Message-ID: On July 30, 2003 06:11 pm, you wrote: > Howdy. I just upgraded to the latest 2.1.2 stable source (I had been > running the last beta previously). After upgrading, as expected all > template files got stomped on so I set about recreating them as > appropriate. After doing so however I have two stumpers which looking at > the source code for the archiver (and various other files), I am stumped to > solve. Howdy. To follow up on my post, I noticed the following in Utils.py talking about how templates were looked for: # 1. the list-specific language directory # lists// # # 2. the domain-specific language directory # templates// # # 3. the site-wide language directory # templates/site/ # # 4. the global default language directory # templates/ Looking closer I see that some templates are used, some are not as the code base is still a tad inconsistent in that area. "options.html" is not being used in most cases because the code simply does not call up a template. "Cgi/options.py" only uses options.html in some cases (if you are not successful logging in, no template is used). The latest version of Mailman re-breaks cookies in Konqueror (the beta had fixed this) so I was actually getting the error page and not immediately noticing that this is handled differently in the code. So this is just a case of misleading behaviour / out of sync documentation I guess. Where I am still totally stumped though is for the archive templates. I simply do not understand why the templates are being ignored. Looking at HyperArch.py we have the following functions: def quick_maketext(templatefile, dict=None, lang=None, mlist=None): This seems to be where the templates are all parsed. Looking through it I see the following: template = _templatecache.get((templatefile, lang)) if template is None: # Use the basic maketext, with defaults to get the raw template template = Utils.maketext(templatefile, lang=lang, raw=1) _templatecache[(templatefile, lang)] = template So the first time through the template is loaded and from then on it sits in the global array _template. The main thing here is that the maketext call should be returning an error if it cannot load the template (which has been edited) but instead it does not and the generated archive pages do not match the templates as stored in the templates folder. Any ideas what gives here? Why are my templates being ignored for the archives? Cheers PS: I hate the lack of formal closure for if statements in Python (yes, I do like idiot mittens thank you very much). =) From r.barrett at openinfo.co.uk Thu Jul 31 22:58:44 2003 From: r.barrett at openinfo.co.uk (Richard Barrett) Date: Thu Jul 31 16:59:01 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] a template "arrrgh...." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 09:16 pm, Ron Brogden wrote: > On July 30, 2003 06:11 pm, you wrote: >> Howdy. I just upgraded to the latest 2.1.2 stable source (I had been >> running the last beta previously). After upgrading, as expected all >> template files got stomped on so I set about recreating them as >> appropriate. After doing so however I have two stumpers which >> looking at >> the source code for the archiver (and various other files), I am >> stumped to >> solve. > > Howdy. To follow up on my post, I noticed the following in Utils.py > talking > about how templates were looked for: > > # 1. the list-specific language directory > # lists// > # > # 2. the domain-specific language directory > # templates// > # > # 3. the site-wide language directory > # templates/site/ > # > # 4. the global default language directory > # templates/ > > Looking closer I see that some templates are used, some are not as the > code > base is still a tad inconsistent in that area. > > "options.html" is not being used in most cases because the code simply > does > not call up a template. "Cgi/options.py" only uses options.html in > some > cases (if you are not successful logging in, no template is used). > The > latest version of Mailman re-breaks cookies in Konqueror (the beta had > fixed > this) so I was actually getting the error page and not immediately > noticing > that this is handled differently in the code. > > So this is just a case of misleading behaviour / out of sync > documentation I > guess. > > Where I am still totally stumped though is for the archive templates. > I > simply do not understand why the templates are being ignored. Looking > at > HyperArch.py we have the following functions: > > def quick_maketext(templatefile, dict=None, lang=None, mlist=None): > > This seems to be where the templates are all parsed. Looking through > it I > see the following: > > template = _templatecache.get((templatefile, lang)) > if template is None: > # Use the basic maketext, with defaults to get the raw template > template = Utils.maketext(templatefile, lang=lang, raw=1) > _templatecache[(templatefile, lang)] = template > > So the first time through the template is loaded and from then on it > sits in > the global array _template. The main thing here is that the maketext > call > should be returning an error if it cannot load the template (which has > been > edited) but instead it does not and the generated archive pages do not > match > the templates as stored in the templates folder. > > Any ideas what gives here? Why are my templates being ignored for the > archives? > There is a known bug in MM 2.1.2 (and earlier 2.1.x) for which a patch is available. This patch has been folded into the CVS and should thus appear in the next release of MM (2.1.3?) but for the moment it is applicable to 2.1.2; see: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/ index.php?func=detail&aid=730769&group_id=103&atid=100103 > Cheers > > PS: I hate the lack of formal closure for if statements in Python > (yes, I do > like idiot mittens thank you very much). > They are formally closed by exdenting. Indentation is much cleaner than braces BEGIN/END etc, for indicating block structure, once you are used to it. > =) > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Barrett http://www.openinfo.co.uk From rb at islandnet.com Thu Jul 31 15:37:34 2003 From: rb at islandnet.com (Ron Brogden) Date: Thu Jul 31 17:37:40 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] a template "arrrgh...." In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On July 31, 2003 01:58 pm, you wrote: > There is a known bug in MM 2.1.2 (and earlier 2.1.x) for which a patch > is available. This patch has been folded into the CVS and should thus > appear in the next release of MM (2.1.3?) but for the moment it is > applicable to 2.1.2; see: > http://sourceforge.net/tracker/ > index.php?func=detail&aid=730769&group_id=103&atid=100103 Hello Richard. Thanks for the tip but now I have a new problem (ain't that always the case). =) I tried installing the patch but it seemed to have messed up the template parsing (I was suddenly left with unparsed tags such as "%(meta)s" everywhere. I quickly reverted back to the unmodified code but now it appears that this data has been physically cached somewhere so now I have the problem of not being able to clear out the stale cache. Any idea where this cache is stored? My archives will shortly be useless if I cannot catch this quickly (and a rebuild is nasty, nasty as this is a busy server). Arrrgh. =) Cheers From rb at islandnet.com Thu Jul 31 17:36:22 2003 From: rb at islandnet.com (Ron Brogden) Date: Thu Jul 31 19:36:29 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] more template shenanigans In-Reply-To: <42656828-C3AB-11D7-88C4-000A957C9A50@ftel.co.uk> References: <42656828-C3AB-11D7-88C4-000A957C9A50@ftel.co.uk> Message-ID: On July 31, 2003 04:03 pm, you wrote: > mailmanctl restart after making the code change. The cache is in > process memory and is freshly created on demand within each process > each time the mailman daemons or scripts are started. You will also > need to rebuild existing mail archives using bin/arch to get the > revised templates to affect existing HTML archive pages. Howdy. Ok, I now understand a bit more as to what is going on. I had forgotten that Mailman is now effectively resident and that these details would be sitting internally in the queue runner process. When stuff lingered around I figured there was a disk cache involved somewhere buried in the code. My bad. I think that the previous "fix" actually did work but I inadvertently came across a separate issue which obscured the real problem. The mangled template was a separate issue altogether (removing all language files would have made this a moot point anyway). Here goes. . . I have edited archtoc.html (as well as the other templates) to give the archive a unified look. After doing so, the archive templates no longer get parsed properly (i.e. none of the placeholders get replaced). Looking at the source, the only immediate candidate is the "%" symbol in some of the table tags (i.e. "width=100%") but I am not clear yet on how the conversions are done. I know that a dictionary is passed to maketext() which is used but what character exactly is screwing up the tag parsing I am unsure. I have now restored the stock templates while I troubleshoot but does anyone have any tips for trouble shooting a template that no longer parses? Thanks again for any help you can provide. Cheers, Ron From rb at islandnet.com Thu Jul 31 18:14:41 2003 From: rb at islandnet.com (Ron Brogden) Date: Thu Jul 31 20:14:48 2003 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] more template shenanigans In-Reply-To: <1B0FECCF-C3B2-11D7-88C4-000A957C9A50@openinfo.co.uk> References: <1B0FECCF-C3B2-11D7-88C4-000A957C9A50@openinfo.co.uk> Message-ID: On July 31, 2003 04:52 pm, you wrote: > To get a single % use %%. For example, running python from the command > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "", line 1, in ? > TypeError: not enough arguments for format string Thanks Richard, that was the ticket. Mailman wasn't recording any errors in the logs and since the template didn't even partially parse I was initially stumped (I was expecting a linear parsing as opposed to the crazy string / array / tuple handling stuff in Python as I am less familiar with that). Figures that my Python book would be at home the one day I could really use it. =) Now all is well, I just have to set aside several hours to rebuild the archives. Cheers -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Island Net AMT Solutions Group Inc. Telephone: 250 383-0096 1412 Quadra Street Toll Free: 1 800 331-3055 Victoria, B.C. Fax: 250 383-6698 V8W 2L1 E-Mail: support@islandnet.com Canada WWW: http://www.islandnet.com/ -----------------------------------------------------------------------------