From tim.one@home.com Mon Jan 1 00:13:12 2001 From: tim.one@home.com (Tim Peters) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 19:13:12 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] RE: [Python-Dev] Re: Most everything is busted In-Reply-To: <14926.34447.60988.553140@anthem.concentric.net> Message-ID: [Barry A. Warsaw] > There's a stupid, stupid bug in Mailman 2.0, which I've just fixed > and (hopefully) unjammed things on the Mailman end[1]. We're still > probably subject to the Postfix delays unfortunately; I think those > are DNS related, and I've gotten a few other reports of DNS oddities, > which I've forwarded off to the DC sysadmins. I don't think that > particular problem will be fixed until after the New Year. > > relax-and-enjoy-the-quiet-ly y'rs, I would have, except you appear to have ruined it: hundreds of msgs disgorged overnight and into the afternoon. And echoes of email to c.l.py now routinely come back in minutes instead of days. Overall, ya, I liked it better when it was broken -- jerk . typical-user-ly y'rs - tim From Dan.Mick@west.sun.com Mon Jan 1 02:56:15 2001 From: Dan.Mick@west.sun.com (Dan Mick) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 18:56:15 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Real Name Support References: <3A4B5393.A14AFF22@earlham.edu> Message-ID: <3A4FF1CF.C82C6371@west.sun.com> "Barry A. Warsaw" wrote: > a stupid, stupid bug Is anyone else thinking of Plan 9 from Outer Space right now? :) :) (BTW, Barry: 'marouni'?) From trooster@interstroom.nl Mon Jan 1 09:32:22 2001 From: trooster@interstroom.nl (Joris Trooster) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 10:32:22 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Monthly reminder Errors-To etc Message-ID: <006801c073d5$ce19cec0$0d00a8c0@dexter> If mailman sends the monthly reminders, the Return-Path, Sender, Errors-To and X-BeenThere header tags will be set to a 'random' mailinglist created on your system. Even if you have set up mailman with different virtual-hosts, another virtual host can be set in the mail header Sender. Have a look some relevant code of /yourpath/mailman/cron/mailpasswds : def mail_passwords(mlist, hosts): HandlerAPI.DeliverToUser(mlist, msg, {'_nolist': 1}) def main(): a_public_list = None for listname in Utils.list_names(): mlist = MailList.MailList(listname, lock=0) if not a_public_list and mlist.advertised: a_public_list = mlist if a_public_list: mail_passwords(a_public_list, hosts) And the comments in the code: "The list can be any random one - it is only used for the message delivery mechanism." You see that it is the first mailinglist created on your system that is used for setting the Return-Path, Sender, Errors-To, X-BeenThere headers in the monthly reminder messages. A quick solution is to change the code (at the end) in cron/mailpasswds to: ..... if a_public_list: # This line is added to set a custom Sender in het mailheader: a_public_list=MailList.MailList(mm_cfg.MONTHLY_SENDER, lock=0) a_public_list.Lock() try: mail_passwords(a_public_list, hosts) ..... And add to Mailman/mm_cfg.py : # Use this list as the Return-Path, Sender, Errors-To and X-BeenThere headers # for the monthly reminders. Be sure that this list exists!! MONTHLY_SENDER = 'defaultlist' It's just a quick work around. It should be better to have a separate Sender for the montly reminders (wish list for future versions!). Regards, Joris Trooster Netherlands John Martin wrote: - -------------- cut here ---->8 ---< head Return-Path: Delivered-To: jam@jamux.com Subject: lists.essential.org mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@venice.essential.org To: jam@essential.org Sender: ababa-admin@venice.essential.org Errors-To: ababa-admin@venice.essential.org X-BeenThere: ababa@lists.essential.org - ---- 8<------- cut here ----------> tail with the bogus envelope sender, "Errors-To" and header-sender presumably causing to be inundated with delivery error notices. Is this an error that has crept into my Mailman configuration, or is this what Mailman will do until the item on the To Do list is resolved? From jeffrey@thompsonic.com Mon Jan 1 15:30:10 2001 From: jeffrey@thompsonic.com (Jeffrey Thompson) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 10:30:10 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Typo in Software Generated Page Content Message-ID: <3A50A282.4BE2302A@thompsonic.com> I have located a typo in the pending admin decision: Administrative requests for mailing list: My-List I read: For each held posting, select the action to take by choosing one of Defer - Defer your decision until later. Use this if you just want to forward or preserve (see below) the message but not dispose of it yet. Approve - Approve the message and send it on to the list. Reject - Reject the message, sending a rejection notice to the sender. The original message is discarded. Discard - The original message is discarded with no rejection message being sent. This option is useful for spam. Turn on the Preserve option if you want to save a copy if this message for the site administrator. Should be: "... save a copy OF this message ..." that is part of the software, and you hopefully a developer will correct it. Jeffrey Thompson From claw@kanga.nu Mon Jan 1 19:44:56 2001 From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 11:44:56 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailing List Subscription Request (fwd) Message-ID: <21800.978378296@kanga.nu> V3 really needs to support something like the following: ------- Forwarded Message Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 14:40:22 -0500 To: claw@kanga.nu Subject: Mailing List Subscription Request From: general@securityspace.com Reply-To: general@securityspace.com Someone, possibly you, has requested that the address claw@kanga.nu be registered to receive daily news at www.securityspace.com. To complete the list subscription process, please go to: http://www.securityspace.com/secnews/confirm.html?email=claw@kanga.nu&code= Alternatively, if the above line was split by your browser, you may need to go directly to the URL http://www.securityspace.com/secnews/confirm.html and enter your email address and activation code If you do not wish to complete the registration, you don't need to do anything. Security News Services http://www.securityspace.com/ ------- End of Forwarded Message -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From barry@digicool.com Mon Jan 1 20:38:03 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 15:38:03 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailing List Subscription Request (fwd) References: <21800.978378296@kanga.nu> Message-ID: <14928.60075.85334.647411@anthem.concentric.net> >>>>> "JCL" == J C Lawrence writes: JCL> V3 really needs to support something like the following: I completely agree, and, if some of the things I've been playing with over the holidays pan out, it'll be easy to add this. -Barry From blitztec@bigpond.net.au Mon Jan 1 21:42:12 2001 From: blitztec@bigpond.net.au (blitztec@bigpond.net.au) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:42:12 +1000 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Feature request Message-ID: <20010102074212.A4108@bigpond.net.au> A really simple one, I'm currently doing this with procmail, but it would be nice if it could be built in to the mailman system itself. Similar to egroups or other servers running qmail's ezmlm software when I email mylist-subscribe@mydomain.com blank email, it converts it to a subscribe request same for mylist-unsubscribe@mydomain.com totally idiot proof for thoes users who can't even get a subscribe request right. Thanks >From Mitchell From info8@networkshosts.com Mon Jan 1 21:28:54 2001 From: info8@networkshosts.com (info8@networkshosts.com) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 16:28:54 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] You Can Boost Windows reliability!!!! Message-ID: Dear Windows User, Now you can boost the reliability of ordinary Windows ME, 95 and 98 to nearly the level of Windows NT or 2000, Microsoft's professional and industrial version of Windows. The new WinFix 4.4 is a very effective way to improve the reliability of Windows, because it makes Windows fault-tolerant and self-repairing. And WinFix is very safe, because it operates completely independent of Windows. http://www3.networkshosts.com/comph to find out more about WinFix, the safest, most effective way to keep you working, by keeping your PC working non-stop. Arlen Dixon, CEO Westwood Software Marketing * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This announcement is being sent to PC users who asked to be kept informed about new developments in Windows(tm) technology. To be removed from our mailing list, go to the Email-us page. OR To be removed mailto:remove@www3.networkshosts.com?Subject=REMOVE From jeffrey@thompsonic.com Mon Jan 1 22:44:06 2001 From: jeffrey@thompsonic.com (Jeffrey Thompson) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 17:44:06 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator Message-ID: <3A510836.8418A284@thompsonic.com> --------------E5782D7ECAE3851F80B388FA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On my mailing list I have a real trouble maker (currently removed). So, I was just thinking, whether I could ask one list member, whether he would be willing to moderate this man's postings. If we could flag individual members for approving other's messages, a half-moderator in a sense, then that would further reduce the work of the "full moderators" So, the question is: Could a person become a half-moderator, who can approve messages of a person flagged for message moderating, but who would not be a full moderator who can see all the members email addresses, archives, etc.? I don't have the time to do the moderating of all the messages. But at the same time, I don't want to open up the management of my entire list. There are lots of people with psychological problems for whom such a feature on a mailing list would be good, to have their "personal mentor" moderate their postings. What do you think? The alternative would be, let him send his messages to this person first, and after checking them, the other member sends them to the list. But do we have an option of "only receiving messages" but "not submitting messages to the list"? I can't remember to have seen that. That in itself might also be a good feature to add in general. Have separate address lists of "readers" and "writers" for the list. Usually writers would be readers too. I have seen that you can specify people who can send without being members, i.e. not receiving. But I would need it the other way around. Or did I just overlook that? Thanks for any help you can give, Jeffrey Thompson --------------E5782D7ECAE3851F80B388FA Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On my mailing list I have a real trouble maker (currently removed).
So, I was just thinking, whether I could ask one list member, whether he
would be willing to moderate this man's postings.

If we could flag individual members for approving other's messages,
a half-moderator in a sense, then that would further reduce the work of
the "full moderators"

So, the question is: Could a person become a half-moderator,
who can approve messages of a person flagged for message
moderating, but who would not be a full moderator who can
see all the members email addresses, archives, etc.?

I don't have the time to do the moderating of all the messages.
But at the same time, I don't want to open up the management
of my entire list.

There are lots of people with psychological problems for whom such a feature
on a mailing list would be good, to have their "personal mentor"
moderate their postings.

What do you think? The alternative would be, let him send his
messages to this person first, and after checking them, the other
member sends them to the list. But do we have an option of
"only receiving messages" but "not submitting messages to the list"?
I can't remember to have seen that.

That in itself might also be a good feature to add in general.
Have separate address lists of "readers" and "writers" for the list.
Usually writers would be readers too. I have seen that you can specify people who can
send without being members, i.e. not receiving. But I would
need it the other way around. Or did I just overlook that?

Thanks for any help you can give,

Jeffrey Thompson

--------------E5782D7ECAE3851F80B388FA-- From les@2pi.org Tue Jan 2 00:31:53 2001 From: les@2pi.org (Les Niles) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 16:31:53 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailing List Subscription Request (fwd) In-Reply-To: <21800.978378296@kanga.nu> (message from J C Lawrence on Mon, 01 Jan 2001 11:44:56 -0800) References: <21800.978378296@kanga.nu> Message-ID: <200101020031.QAA13315@mutiny.2pi.org> On Mon, 01 Jan 2001 11:44:56 -0800 J C Lawrence wrote: > >V3 really needs to support something like the following: If I understand what you're asking for -- a click-on-this-link mechanism for subscription confirmation -- there's a patch I submitted, #102018, that does it. The mail-it-in options are retained. -les From marouni@earlham.edu Tue Jan 2 04:06:40 2001 From: marouni@earlham.edu (Nicholas Marouf) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 23:06:40 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Real Name Support References: <3A4B5393.A14AFF22@earlham.edu> <3A4FF1CF.C82C6371@west.sun.com> Message-ID: <3A5153D0.7A2F88A6@earlham.edu> Happy New Year to all of you. For some reason I don't seem to have gotten Barry's? reply to the bug. We actually had our lovely Extreme switch die over christmas break. Can someone forward it to me. BTW: I checked the archives and didn't see it there either. Thanks Marouf Dan Mick wrote: > > "Barry A. Warsaw" wrote: > > > a stupid, stupid bug > > Is anyone else thinking of Plan 9 from Outer Space right now? :) :) > > (BTW, Barry: 'marouni'?) > -- Nicholas Marouf http://www.ramallahonline.com From jeffrey@thompsonic.com Tue Jan 2 04:30:12 2001 From: jeffrey@thompsonic.com (Jeffrey Thompson) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 23:30:12 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] NEW FEATURE SUGGESTION: Anonymous Administrators Message-ID: <3A515954.C0C36F48@thompsonic.com> Sometimes the moderators would prefer to be anonymous as well as the users on the mailing list. It might be a good feature to have anonymous administrators where you show the list as being administrated by: -admin@ I have hacked the code (the first time I looked at Python) to do it. I could send a diff to anyone who wants it. -- Jeffrey Thompson From mtearle@tearle.com Tue Jan 2 04:35:28 2001 From: mtearle@tearle.com (Mark Tearle) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:35:28 +0800 (WST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Debian packaging information Message-ID: Hi Just a quick question - is there a reason why the debian packaging information is not in the mailman CVS tree? Yours Mark -- Mark Tearle - mark@tearle.com "You howl and listen Listen and wait for the Echoes of angels who won't return" From jeffrey@thompsonic.com Tue Jan 2 05:06:11 2001 From: jeffrey@thompsonic.com (Jeffrey Thompson) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 00:06:11 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FEATURE REQUEST: Mailcmd Interface ... Pretty Please Message-ID: <3A5161C3.DF6C0833@thompsonic.com> --------------92A7250D38F129901E7898CD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a moderator from a country you have to pay by the minute to access the Internet. He would like an email admin interface because it's more expensive for him to do the web interface for routine tasks such as approving a post or adding or removing a list member. I have not tested what it means to have the whole list moderated, but I assume, that this is not just for "special people" but that all moderation is done via web interface. Now, that might be okay in the USA, where you have flat rates, no phone fees to access the internet. But in most other countries, we pay by the minute of online time. So, for nearly every admin outside North America, administration including moderating a mailing list via email will save a lot of money, because downloading is quick, but reading potentially large emails really costs time. Maybe you want to bring that to the attention of the mailman developers? Doing the settings of the list on the web is okay, but anything regular and time-intensive should be made possible to handle via email. The International users would appreciate developers doing the Mailcmd todo items sooner than rather than later, Thank you , Jeffrey Thompson --------------92A7250D38F129901E7898CD Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a moderator from a country you have to pay by the minute to
access the Internet. He would like an email admin interface because
it's more expensive for him to do the web interface for routine tasks such
as approving a post or adding or removing a list member.

I have not tested what it means to have the whole list moderated, but
I assume, that this is not just for "special people" but that all
moderation is done via web interface. Now, that might be okay in the USA,
where you have flat rates, no phone fees to access the internet.
But in most other countries, we pay by the minute of online time.
So, for nearly every admin outside North America, administration
including moderating a mailing list via email will save a lot of
money, because downloading is quick, but reading potentially large emails
really costs time. Maybe you want to bring that to the attention of
the mailman developers? Doing the settings of the list on the web is
okay, but anything regular and time-intensive should be made possible to
handle via email.

The International users would appreciate developers doing the Mailcmd todo items
sooner than rather than later,

Thank you ,

Downloading

Version -(2.0, +(2.0.1b1, released on -Nov 21 2000) +Jan 2 2001) is the current GNU release. It is available from the following mirror sites:

of "Tue, 02 Jan 2001 10:32:58 PST." References: <200101021650.JAA20997@mail.commercedata.com> Message-ID: <28429.978470157@kanga.nu> On Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:32:58 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > At 9:50 AM -0700 1/2/01, Dave Klingler wrote: >> This is a neat thread, because at this point (a big pile of >> queues) the work needed to throw the whole thing into a database >> is trivial. Chuq, Apple's EOF would let you build a Mailman >> analog in under an hour, btw! Faster and easier to maintain! > I was kinda thinking the same thing -- you start looking in terms > of messages and semaphores instead of a real queue manager. And > instead of moving messages among queues, you simply pass a token > around from place to place until mailman is done with it... Percisely. However we need to maintain the abstraction of Mailman from its underlieing queue implementation, be it really implemented by something like MQS, just index twiddles in an SQL DB, or movelments of files among specially named/located directories. If we keep the queue model and just provide plugins for the (few) queue manipulation points -- which really just sumes to "move message X from queueA to queueB -- then we pretty well get the rest for free. > Doing this in a decent database becomes really interesting (in a > fun way, not in a grind your teeth way) True. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From chuqui@plaidworks.com Tue Jan 2 21:25:51 2001 From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:25:51 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator In-Reply-To: <28429.978470157@kanga.nu> References: <200101021650.JAA20997@mail.commercedata.com> <28429.978470157@kanga.nu> Message-ID: At 1:15 PM -0800 1/2/01, J C Lawrence wrote: >Percisely. However we need to maintain the abstraction of Mailman >from its underlieing queue implementation, I wonder -- would it make more sense to suck all this back into mailman, and simply create widgets that export into MQS for things that are being distributed to it, the way we'd create a widget to hand a message off to the digester? what do we buy by not doing this? And is it worht the added complexity and overhead? -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) We're visiting the relatives. Cover us. From claw@kanga.nu Tue Jan 2 22:28:45 2001 From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 14:28:45 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Tue, 02 Jan 2001 13:25:51 PST." References: <200101021650.JAA20997@mail.commercedata.com> <28429.978470157@kanga.nu> Message-ID: <1656.978474525@kanga.nu> On Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:25:51 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > At 1:15 PM -0800 1/2/01, J C Lawrence wrote: >> Percisely. However we need to maintain the abstraction of >> Mailman from its underlieing queue implementation, > I wonder -- would it make more sense to suck all this back into > mailman, and simply create widgets that export into MQS for things > that are being distributed to it, the way we'd create a widget to > hand a message off to the digester? what do we buy by not doing > this? And is it worht the added complexity and overhead? I don't see the gain by going this way, and I do see considerable loss. You are suggesting moving back from a fine-grained granular system to a more monolithic/enclusive approach. The normal justifications for this are efficiency/performance (which doesn't apply here as we're discussing areas which are not performance bound) and ease of implementation (which is actually a false metric as all you are really trading is effort at design time for effort at implementation time) Monolithic seems simpler on the face of it because you don't have to define your data flowpaths and dependencies before hand and its easier to get away with fudging it later without having to have thought through the whole problem before hand. Or, in translation: Its easier to hack as you go along and to grow organically during development. I don't see that as a viable or even valuable quality. I also don't like tools that have grown that way. Yes, this can be handled with developer discipline, but that doen't tend to be the way that projects grow -- and Mailman needs to get beyond the point of Barry being the only one doing any heavy lifting. If we keep to the fine grained approach the componenets will tend to be smaller and simpler and easier to design, write, and debug. We're going to have think more in the beginning to define what the framework and data dependency models are -- that's a classic tradeoff of where you spend your intelligence and brain hurt: in the design or the in the implementation -- but the result should be something which can then be easily extended in consistent fashions (or hacked) without pain. Or, to turn this around: I'd like to see Mailman become more of a mail handling/automation toolkit which happens to have a default example application for mailing lists. If we go with the fine grained approach we should be able to do *really* intereting things in v4. Heck, done right we're talking about defining a/the basic architecture for how scalable mail processing/automation systems are built (remember those comments about hooking a CRM tool off the side?). -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From mtearle@tearle.com Wed Jan 3 04:07:01 2001 From: mtearle@tearle.com (Mark Tearle) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:07:01 +0800 (WST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Debian packaging information In-Reply-To: <14930.8722.241879.731205@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > >>>>> "MT" == Mark Tearle writes: > > MT> Just a quick question - is there a reason why the debian > MT> packaging information is not in the mailman CVS tree? > > Does it need to be? I don't personally do the packaging, but if it > would help packagers to include config files in the tree someplace, > then I'll include any relevant donated files. > > -Barry Does it need to be? Probably not, the Debian packaging system copes with upstream versions of programs. Does it help? Yes, one canonical source for the packaging information and is more likely to track the latest version. A example would be a lot of the GNOME programs that have the packaging files in their CVS trees. The reason I asked is that I was wanting to install the latest CVS version of mailman on my system when I was hacking on it the other day and have my machine end up suffering a bad case of /usr/local-itis. Yours Mark -- Mark Tearle - mark@tearle.com "You howl and listen Listen and wait for the Echoes of angels who won't return" From davek@mail.commercedata.com Wed Jan 3 05:02:04 2001 From: davek@mail.commercedata.com (Dave Klingler) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:02:04 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jan 02, 2001 10:32:58 AM Message-ID: <200101030502.WAA22303@mail.commercedata.com> > At 9:50 AM -0700 1/2/01, Dave Klingler wrote: > >This is a neat thread, because at this point (a big pile of queues) the > >work needed to throw the whole thing into a database is trivial. Chuq, > >Apple's EOF would let you build a Mailman analog in under an hour, btw! > >Faster and easier to maintain! > > I was kinda thinking the same thing -- you start looking in terms of > messages and semaphores instead of a real queue manager. And instead > of moving messages among queues, you simply pass a token around from > place to place until mailman is done with it... > > Doing this in a decent database becomes really interesting (in a fun > way, not in a grind your teeth way) I wonder how easy it would be to do sort of a Mailman-lite that would sit on top of PSQL or MySQL, although what you're talking about works nicely without a database until the message gets archived. With EOF it would just sort of happen. Huh. Okay...how to pull out the various Mailman functions and expose them so that some functions could be redirected to databases for big lists? What if incoming messages were appended to single files that each represented sort of a FIFO, with the filename/descriptor represented in a queue instance description somewhere, something like the class in my previous mail? Okay, then the various actions in the class could be filenames of executables that would perform the various functions of that object. THAT way, you could easily change a particular function by changing the script filename, and the script could be in any language, and could either be a call to a database or something else. Since everything's been abstracted and there are only a few list-types, you could easily keep an editable plaintext file that contained all your pseudo-class information. Now you've got an extremely flexible but very small group of scripts that fit together in an application but can be easily maintained and replaced as needed, which is what someone was talking about as a goal a few days back. I'm not sure I explained that very well, but basically the idea is to take the abstracted queue object structure I talked about before and just implement each "class description" as a plaintext file that carries the names of the executables that perform the various tasks. There are only a few queues anyway (other than the lists themselves) so it doesn't get messy in terms of the kinds of queues. So maybe a list instance (directory) now looks like this: Files in the Test List directory: incomingMessages.queue outgoingMessages.queue requests.queue config.db description various html files That description file is just a plain text file that lists the executables that perform various functions for the list instance, inherited from the parent class "template", and if you want to do something different with that list (like have partial owners, for instance) you can just "override" the names of the executables in the instance description. What do you think of that rant? Nothing like regular ol' textfiles for exposing the innards of a...er...program. Dave Klingler From barry@digicool.com Wed Jan 3 06:19:01 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:19:01 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Debian packaging information References: <14930.8722.241879.731205@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: <14930.50261.563403.435000@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "MT" == Mark Tearle writes: MT> Does it need to be? Probably not, the Debian packaging system MT> copes with upstream versions of programs. MT> Does it help? Yes, one canonical source for the packaging MT> information and is more likely to track the latest version. A MT> example would be a lot of the GNOME programs that have the MT> packaging files in their CVS trees. MT> The reason I asked is that I was wanting to install the latest MT> CVS version of mailman on my system when I was hacking on it MT> the other day and have my machine end up suffering a bad case MT> of /usr/local-itis. I've got no objections to including the appropriate packaging information, say in the misc/ directory. I won't maintain it, but if it's contributed and properly FSF assigned, I'll include it in the source distro (same for RPM or any other useful package manager config files). -Barry From barry@digicool.com Wed Jan 3 06:29:30 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:29:30 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator References: <3A510836.8418A284@thompsonic.com> <28419.978416306@kanga.nu> <3A51C4D1.DD1118F@thompsonic.com> Message-ID: <14930.50890.651974.983266@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "JT" == Jeffrey Thompson writes: JT> Cool concept there. I like that idea. And, also you could JT> further define a queue as containing sub-queues. In the case JT> of a "half-moderator" he would be monitoring part of a queue, JT> and would in effect moderate a sub-queue. So the larger queue JT> would contain all of the people subscribed, plus additional JT> sub-queues that are moderated seperately. This falls nicely in line with some of my holiday hacking on v3 ideas. I've got the concept of Rosters, which are just lists of users (which themselves contain email addresses) and can be attached to mailing lists either as delivery rosters (e.g. for membership), or owner/admin rosters, or moderator rosters. [Which leads me to re-iterate that I definitely think the admin role and the moderator role should be separated] I can see where a roster object might have predicates attached to it, or be associated with nodes in the state machine, so it could decide what to do with the message, e.g. send it on to it's members for approval, hold the message, etc. -Barry From barry@digicool.com Wed Jan 3 06:35:11 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:35:11 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator References: <3A51C4D1.DD1118F@thompsonic.com> <200101021650.JAA20997@mail.commercedata.com> Message-ID: <14930.51231.910361.341672@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "DK" == Dave Klingler writes: DK> I also tend to think in terms of Objective C, so my DK> pseudorambling mushes everything together. That's okay, I'm a closet, or perhaps I should say "reformed" NextStepper. I was using Objective-C way back in '86 or so. Anybody else remember Vici? :) -Barry From davek@mail.commercedata.com Wed Jan 3 05:44:30 2001 From: davek@mail.commercedata.com (Dave Klingler) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:44:30 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator In-Reply-To: <200101030502.WAA22303@mail.commercedata.com> from "Dave Klingler" at Jan 02, 2001 10:02:04 PM Message-ID: <200101030544.WAA22999@mail.commercedata.com> Arrrrrgggh. I wrote > Files in the Test List directory: > incomingMessages.queue > outgoingMessages.queue > requests.queue > config.db > description > various html files That's not supposed to be "outgoingMessages". That's supposed to be "archivedMessages.queue" or some darned silly thing. I go on these binges when my blood sugar gets low and I'm supposed to be doing something else, and then I'm like Coleridge and Xanadu; I can't remember what it was exactly that I was inspired to write. Oh well. Hope it made sense to somebody. [daveKlingler GoEat:grahamCrackers And:Milk FeedDogsPortionAsPercentage:50]; [daveKlingler sleep]; From claw@kanga.nu Wed Jan 3 05:51:04 2001 From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 21:51:04 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Debian packaging information In-Reply-To: Message from Mark Tearle of "Wed, 03 Jan 2001 12:07:01 +0800." References: Message-ID: <9550.978501064@kanga.nu> On Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:07:01 +0800 (WST) Mark Tearle wrote: > Does it help? Yes, one canonical source for the packaging > information and is more likely to track the latest version. A > example would be a lot of the GNOME programs that have the > packaging files in their CVS trees. I question this -- I've seen too many instances where a product advances more quickly than its packing files (which are not maintained by the authors/contributors) resulting in problems/misunderstandings. This is an especially small gain given the fact that given a CVS tree which is reasonably consistent with the cannonical packaged version, it it simple to port the package patch forward locally (I've done this many times). -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From claw@kanga.nu Wed Jan 3 05:53:54 2001 From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 21:53:54 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator In-Reply-To: Message from Dave Klingler of "Tue, 02 Jan 2001 22:02:04 MST." <200101030502.WAA22303@mail.commercedata.com> References: <200101030502.WAA22303@mail.commercedata.com> Message-ID: <9737.978501234@kanga.nu> On Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:02:04 -0700 (MST) Dave Klingler wrote: > Huh. Okay...how to pull out the various Mailman functions and > expose them so that some functions could be redirected to > databases for big lists? Have you read the previous traffic on V3? The system that Chuq and I have been disucssing to date supports this inherently. Much of the content in that thread is similar to what you wrote below and goes considerably further. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From davek@mail.commercedata.com Wed Jan 3 06:22:55 2001 From: davek@mail.commercedata.com (Dave Klingler) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 23:22:55 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator In-Reply-To: <9737.978501234@kanga.nu> from "J C Lawrence" at Jan 02, 2001 09:53:54 PM Message-ID: <200101030622.XAA23891@mail.commercedata.com> > On Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:02:04 -0700 (MST) > Dave Klingler wrote: > > > Huh. Okay...how to pull out the various Mailman functions and > > expose them so that some functions could be redirected to > > databases for big lists? > > Have you read the previous traffic on V3? The system that Chuq and > I have been disucssing to date supports this inherently. Much of > the content in that thread is similar to what you wrote below and > goes considerably further. It may be that when I read it I hadn't gotten very far into the Mailman package. I'll go back and read it again. I do remember that discussion, which is why I mentioned it, but I don't remember your solutions. Dave Klingler From gerald@impressive.net Wed Jan 3 07:26:46 2001 From: gerald@impressive.net (Gerald Oskoboiny) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 02:26:46 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailing List Subscription Request (fwd) In-Reply-To: <14928.60075.85334.647411@anthem.concentric.net>; from barry@digicool.com on Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:38:03PM -0500 References: <21800.978378296@kanga.nu> <14928.60075.85334.647411@anthem.concentric.net> Message-ID: <20010103022646.A31881@impressive.net> On Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:38:03PM -0500, Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > > >>>>> "JCL" == J C Lawrence writes: > > JCL> V3 really needs to support something like the following: > [ provide URLs for easy subscription confirmations ] > > I completely agree, and, if some of the things I've been playing with > over the holidays pan out, it'll be easy to add this. Great... definitely a nice feature. If you do add this, please make sure the actual confirmation step is done with an HTTP POST, not a GET, since using GET for this violates the HTTP protocol (GETting a URL must not have side effects like confirming an application, only POSTing should.) So the page displayed at the URL sent by email can display a trivial HTML form that says something like: Confirmation for subscription to list-foo [ Confirm ] where [ Confirm ] causes the form to be POSTed and the subscription to be confirmed. (Sorry if this advice seems premature, but I've seen various similar software get this wrong.) Further reading on GET vs POST for those who are interested: Forms: GET and POST http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/Input Axioms of Web architecture: Identity, State and GET http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Axioms#state HTTP 1.1 section 9.1: Safe and Idempotent Methods http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec9.html#sec9.1 HTML 4.01 section 17.13: Form submission http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#h-17.13 -- Gerald Oskoboiny http://impressive.net/people/gerald/ From dgc@uchicago.edu Wed Jan 3 09:23:34 2001 From: dgc@uchicago.edu (David Champion) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 03:23:34 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Quoting problem in 2.0 Message-ID: <20010103032334.Y4909@smack.uchicago.edu> There's a problem triggered when list admins enter addresses with double quotes: "foo@bar.biz" instead of foo@bar.biz These addresses are added - the quotes aren't stripped off - but they cannot be removed via the web interface, because then the quotes ARE stripped off. This is true for my 2.0 release installation. In my 1.0 rc2 installation, there's a further complication: it appears from the HTML output that mailman tried to subscribe all addresses in the current chunk. The quoted addresses can be removed via remove_members. I'll see about a patch for 2.0, but since Barry's talking about 2.0.1 I wanted to mention the problem quickly in case the solution is easy enough to throw in the pot. Seems that it would be. -- -D. dgc@uchicago.edu NSIT University of Chicago From dgc@uchicago.edu Wed Jan 3 09:26:56 2001 From: dgc@uchicago.edu (David Champion) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 03:26:56 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Quoting problem in 2.0 In-Reply-To: <20010103032334.Y4909@smack.uchicago.edu>; from dgc@uchicago.edu on Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 03:23:34AM -0600 References: <20010103032334.Y4909@smack.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <20010103032656.Z4909@smack.uchicago.edu> On 2001.01.03, in <20010103032334.Y4909@smack.uchicago.edu>, "David Champion" wrote: > There's a problem triggered when list admins enter addresses with > double quotes: > "foo@bar.biz" > instead of > foo@bar.biz > > These addresses are added - the quotes aren't stripped off - but they > cannot be removed via the web interface, because then the quotes ARE > stripped off. This is true for my 2.0 release installation. > > In my 1.0 rc2 installation, there's a further complication: it appears > from the HTML output that mailman tried to subscribe all addresses in s/subscribe/un& > the current chunk. > > The quoted addresses can be removed via remove_members. > > I'll see about a patch for 2.0, but since Barry's talking about 2.0.1 > I wanted to mention the problem quickly in case the solution is easy > enough to throw in the pot. Seems that it would be. > > -- > -D. dgc@uchicago.edu NSIT University of Chicago > > _______________________________________________ > Mailman-Developers mailing list > Mailman-Developers@python.org > http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers -- -D. dgc@uchicago.edu NSIT University of Chicago From barry@digicool.com Wed Jan 3 16:04:10 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:04:10 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Quoting problem in 2.0 References: <20010103032334.Y4909@smack.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <14931.19834.107810.489186@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "DC" == David Champion writes: DC> There's a problem triggered when list admins enter addresses DC> with double quotes: "foo@bar.biz" instead of foo@bar.biz DC> These addresses are added - the quotes aren't stripped off - DC> but they cannot be removed via the web interface, because then DC> the quotes ARE stripped off. This is true for my 2.0 release DC> installation. DC> In my 1.0 rc2 installation, there's a further complication: it DC> appears from the HTML output that mailman tried to subscribe DC> all addresses in the current chunk. DC> The quoted addresses can be removed via remove_members. DC> I'll see about a patch for 2.0, but since Barry's talking DC> about 2.0.1 I wanted to mention the problem quickly in case DC> the solution is easy enough to throw in the pot. Seems that DC> it would be. You're right it is a simple fix, see below. -Barry Index: admin.py =================================================================== RCS file: /cvsroot/mailman/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py,v retrieving revision 1.82 diff -u -r1.82 admin.py --- admin.py 2000/09/29 00:05:04 1.82 +++ admin.py 2001/01/03 16:02:26 @@ -22,6 +22,7 @@ import cgi import string import types +import rfc822 from Mailman import Utils from Mailman import MailList @@ -835,10 +836,13 @@ # # mass subscription processing for members category # + def clean_names(name): + return rfc822.unquote(string.strip(name)) + if cgi_info.has_key('subscribees'): name_text = cgi_info['subscribees'].value name_text = string.replace(name_text, '\r', '') - names = filter(None, map(string.strip, string.split(name_text, '\n'))) + names = filter(None, map(clean_names, string.split(name_text, '\n'))) send_welcome_msg = string.atoi( cgi_info["send_welcome_msg_to_this_batch"].value) digest = 0 From schorsch@schorsch.com Wed Jan 3 18:05:42 2001 From: schorsch@schorsch.com (Georg Mischler) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:05:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Quoting problem in 2.0 In-Reply-To: <14931.19834.107810.489186@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > > You're right it is a simple fix, see below. > While you're at it... The following is also a simple fix, which eliminates at least some of the "inexplicable" failures to create HTML archives: --- Mailbox.py Wed Jan 3 18:43:59 2001 +++ Mailbox.py Mon Dec 18 18:59:33 2000 @@ -27,7 +27,7 @@ class Mailbox(mailbox.UnixMailbox): # a better regexp than the Python 1.5.2 default _fromlinepattern = r'From \s*\S+\s+\w\w\w\s+\w\w\w\s+\d\d?\s+' \ - r'\d\d?:\d\d(:\d\d)?(\s+\S+)?\s+\d\d\d\d\s*$' + r'\d\d?:\d\d(:\d\d)?(\s+\S+)?\s+[+-]?\d\d\d\d\s*$' _regexp = re.compile(_fromlinepattern) def _isrealfromline(self, line): The rationale for this change is posted here: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2000-December/003518.html I discovered the web based CVS-access in the mean time, so I was now able to create a real patch against the most recent version. Have fun! -schorsch -- Georg Mischler -- simulations developer -- schorsch at schorsch.com +schorsch.com+ -- lighting design tools -- http://www.schorsch.com/ From barry@digicool.com Wed Jan 3 22:27:54 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:27:54 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Quoting problem in 2.0 References: <14931.19834.107810.489186@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: <14931.42858.361000.540012@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "GM" == Georg Mischler writes: GM> Barry A. Warsaw wrote: >> You're right it is a simple fix, see below. GM> While you're at it... The following is also a simple fix, GM> which eliminates at least some of the "inexplicable" failures GM> to create HTML archives: This doesn't seem right. From the referenced archive message, the change is supposed to add a hit for negative timezones, but that's /not/ what those last three \d's are trying to match. They're trying to match a four-digit year. It makes no sense to add an optional sign to the year matching field. If we wanted to be really correct about this, _isrealfromline() always return true because the pre-test already does the Right Thing in matching exactly line.startswith('From ') -- see [1]. I'd make that change, but it worries me because some earlier versions of Mailman did not properly >-mangle embedded From_ lines, so it /could/ break existing archives even worse. I'm not comfortable with this as a patch for 2.0.1. -Barry [1] http://home.netscape.com/eng/mozilla/2.0/relnotes/demo/content-length.html From schorsch@schorsch.com Wed Jan 3 23:12:04 2001 From: schorsch@schorsch.com (Georg Mischler) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:12:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Quoting problem in 2.0 In-Reply-To: <14931.42858.361000.540012@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > > >>>>> "GM" == Georg Mischler writes: > > GM> Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > > >> You're right it is a simple fix, see below. > > GM> While you're at it... The following is also a simple fix, > GM> which eliminates at least some of the "inexplicable" failures > GM> to create HTML archives: > > This doesn't seem right. From the referenced archive message, the > change is supposed to add a hit for negative timezones, but that's > /not/ what those last three \d's are trying to match. They're trying > to match a four-digit year. It makes no sense to add an optional sign > to the year matching field. As happens once in a while, I'm slightly confused now. My own experiments demonstrated to me that this change removes the problem, or at least that's what I think they demonstrated. The following is a typical "From " line as I often encounter them: >From schorsch@schorsch.com Thu Jun 10 13:09:41 1999 -0400 >From my understanding, this matches to the pattern like follows (whitespace inserted for clarity): 'From \s* \S+ \s+ \w\w\w \s+ \w\w\w \s+ \d\d? \s+ 'From schorsch@schorsch.com Thu Jun 10 \d\d?:\d\d(:\d\d)? (\s+ \S+)? \s+ [+-]? \d\d\d\d \s *$' 13 :09 :41 1999 - 0400 ' I must admit that I'm not completely sure why the \S (non whitespace) matching the year is grouped together with the preceding whitespace (hmmm... the year is probably optional?). But in any case, unless I'm missing something crucial, the above interpretation confirms my experiments exactly to the point. In my experience, the above real-life "From " header is matched by the modified pattern, but not by the original one. Thinking about it, it seems that the last 4*\d group matches *either* the year, *or* the time zone, depending on the existence of one of them. But even if this is the case, it shouldn't be a problem (except for potentially matching a negative year...) If it is actually the timezone that is optional, then the grouping might rather be needed there instead of with the year. Or is the pattern meant to match a line where the timezone comes before the year? We'd need to allow for both possibilities then. My suggestion to use the very robust parsedate_tz() function from rfc822.py instead starts to make more and more sense to me. Or am I hallucinating beyond repair here? -schorsch -- Georg Mischler -- simulations developer -- schorsch at schorsch.com +schorsch.com+ -- lighting design tools -- http://www.schorsch.com/ From marc_news@valinux.com Fri Jan 5 14:28:43 2001 From: marc_news@valinux.com (Marc MERLIN) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 06:28:43 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Mailman vs openwall patch In-Reply-To: <20010105145506.A2266@kami.vein.hu>; from dynax@kami.vein.hu on Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 02:55:06PM +0100 References: <20010105145506.A2266@kami.vein.hu> Message-ID: <20010105062843.A13291@marc.merlins.org> On Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 02:55:06PM +0100, Jozsa Kristof wrote: > Hello Marc, > > I'm running debian potato on one of my servers with the openwall patch. I've > tried to deploy Gergely Madarasz's official 2.0final-1 debian package (which > was originally for the latest debian: sid) and run it, but met with the > known openwall problem. > > I've grabbed the (hopefully) latest version of your patch from sourceforge, > but met immediately with some problems. Seems that I dont have either the > module named 'paths' either the Mailman python module which is needed for > the patch to run. Where can I get these? Is it possible to patch my binary The problem is that I wrote the securelinux_fix.py script to run from ~mailman/bin. As agreed with Barry, he put my script in a contrib directory to show that this was unsupported, but in the process that broke it because it won't run as is unless you copy it back in your ~mailman/bin/ tree and run it from there. Barry, would you have a suggestion about this? (or anyone else?) (Worst case, it can be documented by putting a README.securelinux_fix.py in the same directory. By the same token, it'd be awesome if README.LINUX could also document the securelinux_fix alternative) > mailman install from the deb package if I get these python modules > separately? I'd really like to avoid compiling mailman from a tarball *if* > it's possible. My script only patches python scripts in ~mailman/bin, it's a simple text edit, so no binaries involved or recompiles. Best, Marc -- Microsoft is to operating systems & security .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key From barry@digicool.com Fri Jan 5 15:53:35 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:53:35 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Mailman vs openwall patch References: <20010105145506.A2266@kami.vein.hu> <20010105062843.A13291@marc.merlins.org> Message-ID: <14933.60927.90492.658429@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "MM" == Marc MERLIN writes: MM> Barry, would you have a suggestion about this? (or anyone MM> else?) (Worst case, it can be documented by putting a MM> README.securelinux_fix.py in the same directory. By the same MM> token, it'd be awesome if README.LINUX could also document the MM> securelinux_fix alternative) Send me some text for README.LINUX and I'll be very happy to add it to that file! It should probably replace or extend the paragraph that already talks about secure_linux. -Barry From barry@digicool.com Fri Jan 5 17:31:41 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:31:41 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [ANNOUNCE] Mailman 2.0.1 Message-ID: <14934.1277.810270.449651@anthem.wooz.org> Hi folks, I've finally gotten the 2.0.1 release uploaded to SourceForge. This is a bug fix release only, see below for details. It's being distributed as a gzip'd tarball like usual, and also as a patchfile against the 2.0 source tree. If you grab the patchfile, you'll want to cd into your 2.0 source, and apply it like so: % patch -p1 < mailman-2.0-2.0.1.diff Note that you'll likely need GNU patch for this to work properly. Currently only http://mailman.sourceforge.net is updated, but the list.org and gnu.org sites should be updated soon. The release information on SF is at http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=19948 Enjoy, -Barry [From the NEWS file] 2.0.1 (03-Jan-2001) Bug fix release, namely fixes a buglet in bin/withlist affecting the -l and -r flags; also a problem that can cause qrunner to stop processing mail after disk-full events (SourceForge bug 127199). From scott-brown@home.com Sun Jan 7 02:50:06 2001 From: scott-brown@home.com (Scott Brown) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 21:50:06 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting wrapped up in wrapper Message-ID: <000f01c07854$8b87e960$0401a8c0@ibmpeers> Does wrapper only work for python modules or can I call other (ie, perl) modules from it? I've tried to pass thru wrapper into a perl script, but I've been getting (among other things) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Illegal command: /home/webmaster/readmsg.pl 554 "|/home/mailman/mail/wrapper /home/webmaster/readmsg.pl"... unknown mailer error 6 I've tried changing the pipe to "|perl /home/webmaster/readmsg.pl" - but perl cant read the script because it's got root:root permissions (I need them if I'm going to be updating /etc/aliases) I've also tried going straight to the "|/home/webmaster/readmsg.pl" - but I get a permissions error that I cant figure out since the script is set to set uid when executed (and as I mentioned, it is a root:root) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- sh: /home/webmaster/readmsg.pl: Permission denied 554 "|/home/webmaster/readmsg.pl"... unknown mailer error 126 Any help/experience/pointers to FAQs on passing off msgs from sendmail to perl scripts would be appreciated. (BTW: sendmail is an old 8.5 version... perl is 5.004 - and no, I cant upgrade either right now...) Thanks Scott. From barry@digicool.com Sun Jan 7 15:49:07 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:49:07 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting wrapped up in wrapper References: <000f01c07854$8b87e960$0401a8c0@ibmpeers> Message-ID: <14936.36851.680934.641911@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "SB" == Scott Brown writes: SB> Does wrapper only work for python modules or can I call other SB> (ie, perl) modules from it? Mailman's C wrapper is pretty much geared toward safely executing Python scripts without requiring those scripts themselves to be setuid or setgid. -Barry From gnu@gnu.org Sun Jan 14 00:50:05 2001 From: gnu@gnu.org (Free Software Foundation) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 19:50:05 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Fwd - Frm: Silvia@csdanet.org, Subj: URGENT HELP] Message-ID: <20010113195005.W21084@ebb.org> --ore3etO02sBxzSAO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We still get these sorts of messages, because people assume that the GNU link at the bottom of all Mailman lists is support. Do newer versions of mailman now say something like: Mailman is GNU software; you can find more about the GNU project in general at http://www.gnu.org. Note that GNU doesn't provide support, but you might find help in G= NU Service Directory. ----- Forwarded message from Silvia Ortiz ----- To: "'gnu@gnu.org'" From: Silvia Ortiz Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:54:24 -0500 Subject: URGENT HELP I am the administrator of all the cdmonline.org's mailing lists:=20 LAnegotiators@cdmonline.org GRILA@cdmonline.org negotiators@cdmonline.org CDMgroup@cdmonline.org However something happened that any of the passwords that I am using to manage these lists are working. Can you provide me with the current passwords? ASAP please I've been writing to this address mailman-owner@www.cdmonline.org but it has fatal errors and the mails get returned. Please help me Silvia Ortiz Business Development Director CSDA / CEDSA 1700 Connecticut Avenue, NW Suite 403 Washington, D.C. 20009 Tel. (202) 588-0155 Fax (202) 588-0756 silvia@csdanet.org, silvia@cdmonline.org www.csdanet.org www.cdmonline.org Protecting the environment makes business sense. TM ----- End forwarded message ----- --=20 Bradley M. Kuhn Free Software Foundation | Phone: +1-617-542-5942 59 Temple Place, Suite 330 | Fax: +1-617-542-2652 Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA | Web: http://www.gnu.org --ore3etO02sBxzSAO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6YPe953XjJNtBs4cRAinGAJ45UXK0i7f+YXhzyexxFpxx947XjwCbBYle nNNEiyNcE7XS7COU3GYTlyk= =it5d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ore3etO02sBxzSAO-- From bappell@eclectechs.com Wed Jan 17 16:50:21 2001 From: bappell@eclectechs.com (Brian) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:50:21 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] posting Message-ID: <012a01c080a5$946e7540$20f6abd0@valinet.com> Hi, I was wondering if you know of a way to change the e-mail address for posting messages. Thanks, Brian From marc_news@valinux.com Thu Jan 18 20:12:51 2001 From: marc_news@valinux.com (Marc MERLIN) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 07:12:51 +1100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] cookie feature request In-Reply-To: <20010114123741.C5599@tc.niof.net>; from rick@niof.net on Sun, Jan 14, 2001 at 12:37:41PM -0500 References: <20010114123741.C5599@tc.niof.net> Message-ID: <20010119071251.G1651@gandalf.linux.conf.au> On Sun, Jan 14, 2001 at 12:37:41PM -0500, Rick Pasotto wrote: > I've been bitten again. > > I normally run junkbuster so cookies are turned off. Can mailman check > for this situation and alert that cookies are not functioning instead of > just asking again for the name/password with no indication of why? Actually, better: I'm not a cookie expert, but I think that some cookies are saved on disk and other cookies (session cookies?) are kept in memory and lost when the browser is closed. Junkbuster does let session cookies through apparently. Would it be possible for mailman to issue a session cookie if the regular cookie didn't go through? Marc -- Microsoft is to operating systems & security .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key From marc_news@valinux.com Fri Jan 19 01:11:07 2001 From: marc_news@valinux.com (Marc MERLIN) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:11:07 +1100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Can HTML archiving be done asynchronously? Message-ID: <20010119121107.J888@gandalf.linux.conf.au> No luck on mailman-users, maybe someone here can help? ----- Forwarded message from Marc MERLIN ----- I've recently disabled HTML archiving on sourceforge's mailman because after some tests I found that on big lists, it looked like qrunner has to wait while the list archive is updated after each post. It's not a huge deal until you have lists with many posts, and at that time, updating the HTML pages takes a long time. Mailman is still doing the text archiving though, which is fast. Every night, mailman runs ~mailman/cron/nightly_gzip Is there a way to tell pipermail to update its web archives asynchronously, from cron too? Thanks Marc -- Microsoft is to operating systems & security .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key From Nigel.Metheringham@InTechnology.co.uk Fri Jan 19 09:31:14 2001 From: Nigel.Metheringham@InTechnology.co.uk (Nigel Metheringham) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:31:14 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] cookie feature request In-Reply-To: Message from Marc MERLIN of "Fri, 19 Jan 2001 07:12:51 +1100." <20010119071251.G1651@gandalf.linux.conf.au> Message-ID: marc_news@valinux.com said: > Junkbuster does let session cookies through apparently. Not to my knowlege. It certainly doesn't by default and I have never seen a config to do that. > Would it be > possible for mailman to issue a session cookie if the regular cookie > didn't go through? The mailman cookie is phrased so that it should never be saved to disk - ie it is a session cookie rather than a permanent. Nigel. -- [ Nigel Metheringham Nigel.Metheringham@InTechnology.co.uk ] [ Phone: +44 1423 850000 Fax +44 1423 858866 ] [ - Comments in this message are my own and not ITO opinion/policy - ] From edelrio@icm.csic.es Fri Jan 19 10:32:10 2001 From: edelrio@icm.csic.es (Evilio del Rio) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:32:10 +0100 (CET) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] So all you people that wanted autoreject...(It was: Re: Reject non-member postings.) In-Reply-To: <3A6767A7.96C262CC@west.sun.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Dan Mick wrote: > ... (cut from previous replies) >Evilio del Rio wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> Is there any way to configure a list to ALWAYS reject ANY non-member >> posting to a restricted list. I do not want them to be held for approval, >> just reject, full stop. > >Adding header patterns to SpamDetect.py is one way, although not trivial. >Adding "check for list membership" wouldn't be that hard, but it would >take some actual Python coding. I could see if I could hack something >like that up if there were sufficient interest. > >Proposal: a modification to SpamDetect.py to auto-reject, with no >reply message, mail from non-subscribers (on lists with "subscriber posting >only" set). Anyone besides Evilio dying for this? > ... >OK, well, this seems to work. I hacked up SpamDetect.py into a new >module, grabbed code from Hold.py to get the sender and look for the >member_posting_only option, and do a similar rejection trick to >SpamDetect >for throwing the message away. It also logs a message to >~mailman/logs/discard every time it rejects a non-subscriber post, so you >can see that it's working. >... > > ....give me some feedback on my solution. > Hi Mick, Thank you for your interest and your solution. I didn't test it yet because two reasons (correct me if I am wrong): a) It puts the rejection mode for all the site and not on a list-by-list basis. b) It conflicts with another patch to mailman (Hold.py) that we have here that converts the 'posters' setting into a regular expression (this was done to allow a members-posters-only meta-list). I think that the right way is: a) To create a setting for the lists called 'non_members_post_action' (or similar) with three possible values ('Hold for approval', 'Reject' and 'Discard'). b) To incorporate this action in the present message path (maybe this should be the caller of Hold.py) I would like to work on this but I would appreciare any help because I am not an expert in python. And maybe it's time to change this discussion to the developers list (so I post to it also). Tia, ________________________________________________________________ Evilio Jose del Rio Silvan Institut de Ciencies del Mar edelrio@icm.csic.es http://members.es.tripod.de/Evilio/ "Something touched me deep inside the day the music died" - D. McLean From esper@sherohman.org Fri Jan 19 16:58:52 2001 From: esper@sherohman.org (Dave Sherohman) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:58:52 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] cookie feature request In-Reply-To: <20010119071251.G1651@gandalf.linux.conf.au>; from marc_news@valinux.com on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 07:12:51AM +1100 References: <20010114123741.C5599@tc.niof.net> <20010119071251.G1651@gandalf.linux.conf.au> Message-ID: <20010119105852.E13530@sherohman.org> On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 07:12:51AM +1100, Marc MERLIN wrote: > Junkbuster does let session cookies through apparently. I use Junkbuster and have seen no evidence of this. It allows cookies to be set by sites I tell it are allowed to set them and no others. Period. > Would it be possible for mailman to issue a session cookie if the regular > cookie didn't go through? Based on the observed behaviour of Mailman, it appears to me that it uses session cookies only. (If I shut down Netscape and restart it, I have to log back in to Mailman. That's how session cookies act.) -- SGI products are used to create the 'Bugs' that entertain us in theatres and at home. - SGI job posting Geek Code 3.1: GCS d? s+: a- C++ UL++$ P++>+++ L+++>++++ E- W--(++) N+ o+ !K w---$ O M- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t 5++ X+ R++ tv b+ DI++++ D G e* h+ r y+ From Dan.Mick@west.sun.com Fri Jan 19 22:02:33 2001 From: Dan.Mick@west.sun.com (Dan Mick) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:02:33 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] So all you people that wanted autoreject...(Itwas: Re: Reject non-member postings.) References: Message-ID: <3A68B979.413C0806@west.sun.com> > I didn't test it yet because two reasons (correct me if I am wrong): > > a) It puts the rejection mode for all the site and not on a > list-by-list basis. True, although of course it's only lists with "member_posting_only" set. > b) It conflicts with another patch to mailman (Hold.py) that we > have here that converts the 'posters' setting into a regular expression > (this was done to allow a members-posters-only meta-list). Ah. I looked for a functional interface to determine "list member", but didn't find one; I guess the combination of patches would call for that. The danger of customizing software; didn't know you weren't running standard Mailman, of course. > > I think that the right way is: > > a) To create a setting for the lists called 'non_members_post_action' (or > similar) with three possible values ('Hold for approval', 'Reject' and > 'Discard'). > > b) To incorporate this action in the present message path (maybe this > should be the caller of Hold.py) Well, sure, but obviously this is a lot more work. Ah well. > I would like to work on this but I would appreciare any help because I am > not an expert in python. And maybe it's time to change this discussion to > the developers list (so I post to it also). From marc_news@valinux.com Sat Jan 20 01:33:02 2001 From: marc_news@valinux.com (Marc MERLIN) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 12:33:02 +1100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] cookie feature request In-Reply-To: ; from Nigel.Metheringham@InTechnology.co.uk on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:31:14AM +0000 References:

Message-ID: <20010120123302.C888@gandalf.linux.conf.au> On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:31:14AM +0000, Nigel Metheringham wrote: > > marc_news@valinux.com said: > > Junkbuster does let session cookies through apparently. > > Not to my knowlege. It certainly doesn't by default and I have never > seen a config to do that. Mmmh, then I have to figure out why junkbuster does let some cookies through when the from site definitely isn't in my allowed list of cookie sites (I had assume that junkbuster might allow cookies that aren't saved to disk) > > Would it be > > possible for mailman to issue a session cookie if the regular cookie > > didn't go through? > > The mailman cookie is phrased so that it should never be saved to disk > - ie it is a session cookie rather than a permanent. Ok, so I have another problem then, never mind about what I said :-) Marc -- Microsoft is to operating systems & security .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key From kozubal@uiuc.edu Tue Jan 23 22:17:27 2001 From: kozubal@uiuc.edu (Dan Kozubal) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:17:27 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailing list Message-ID: <000801c0858a$453ed2a0$34d97e82@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C08557.FA474E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable my address is catorres@uiuc.edu and i want to get out of a mailing list = i am in so please get me out-thank you ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C08557.FA474E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

my address is catorres@uiuc.edu and i want to = get out of a=20 mailing list i am in so please get me out-thank = you

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C08557.FA474E80-- From barry@digicool.com Tue Jan 23 22:48:42 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:48:42 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailing list References: <000801c0858a$453ed2a0$34d97e82@computer> Message-ID: <14958.2634.708933.741030@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "DK" == Dan Kozubal writes: DK> my address is catorres@uiuc.edu and i want to get out of a DK> mailing list i am in so please get me out-thank you You're not on any mailing list at python.org. There's nothing we can do. From jack@valko.org Wed Jan 24 04:07:53 2001 From: jack@valko.org (Jack Valko) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:07:53 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FW: using swish-e searching with mailman lists Message-ID: I posted this as a possible indexing solution for mailman archives. Is anyone else working on a search feature? J -----Original Message----- From: Jack Valko [mailto:jack@valko.org] Sent: 27 August, 2000 00:56 To: mailman-users@python.org Subject: using swish-e searching with mailman lists I've created a HOWTO on including SWISH-E searching into list archives. It's available at http://www.valko.org/mailmanswish-e/. The changes are rolled into my 1.1 installation, and I'll upgrade it to 2.0 as soon as it comes out of beta. Drop me a line if you have comments or questions, J From vmro-mnm@bredband.net Wed Jan 24 05:03:01 2001 From: vmro-mnm@bredband.net (VMRO-MNM) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 06:03:01 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] READ ABOUT MACEDONIA Message-ID: <000801c085c2$f09637a0$304670d5@bredbandsbolaget.se> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C085CB.4FE5F620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable READ ABOUT MACEDONIA! www.vmro-mnm.com=20 THE TRUTH ABOUT MACEDONIA AND THE MACEDONIAN NATION! Message From: The Macedonian Organization VMRO-MNM (Macedonian for the Macedonians). Tihs is not a commercial. This is about a nation that has suffered = deeply, a nation the world has forgotten about. The Macedoian nation has been robbed of its history, traditions, = culture, identity, land and so on. Everything the athenians, the = "bulgarians", the serbs and rhe "albanians" are writing is really = Macedonian. We Macedonians have suffered enough.We want to to show the = world our struggle for for justice. The media of the western world has never showed the truth about = Macedonia, only "propaganda news". This is the only wey for us to make our voices heard and to inform the = world. If you want to know the truth about Macedonia and the Macedonian nation, = please visit the web site: www.vmro-mnm.com=20 Alo "atina", "sofija", "belgrad" i "tirana" ovde MAKEDONIJA!=20 Hallo "athens", "sofija", "belgrad" and "tirana" here is MACEDONIA!=20 MAKEDONIJA NA MAKEDONCITE!=20 MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS!=20 JAS SUM MAKEDONEC A NE FYROMEC!=20 NIE SME MAKEDONCI A NE FYROMCI!=20 VECNO DA ZIVEE MAKEDONSKATA ZEMJA!=20 VECNO DA ZIVEE MAKEDONSKIOT NAROD!=20 LONG LIVE MACEDONIAN!=20 LONG LIVE THE MACEDONIAN NATION!=20 MACEDONIA BELONGS TO THE MACEDONIANS NO ONE ELSE. Ljupco Mircevski-Trepet President of the Organization VMRO-MNM=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C085CB.4FE5F620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

READ ABOUT MACEDONIA!=20 www.vmro-mnm.com=20

THE TRUTH ABOUT MACEDONIA AND THE MACEDONIAN NATION!

Message From:

The Macedonian = Organization VMRO-MNM (Macedonian for the Macedonians).

Tihs is not a commercial. This is about a = nation that has=20 suffered deeply, a nation the world has forgotten about.
The = Macedoian=20 nation has been robbed of its history, traditions, culture, identity, = land and=20 so on. Everything the athenians, the "bulgarians", the serbs and rhe = "albanians"=20 are writing is really Macedonian. We = Macedonians=20 have suffered enough.We want to to show the world our struggle for for=20 justice.

The media of the western world has never showed the = truth about=20 Macedonia, only "propaganda news".
This is the only wey = for us to=20 make our voices heard and to inform the world.

If you want to = know the=20 truth about Macedonia and the = Macedonian=20 nation, please visit the web site: www.vmro-mnm.com=20

Alo "atina", "sofija", "belgrad" i "tirana" ovde = MAKEDONIJA!=20
Hallo "athens", "sofija", "belgrad" and "tirana" here is = MACEDONIA!=20

MAKEDONIJA NA = MAKEDONCITE!=20
MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS!

JAS SUM MAKEDONEC A NE = FYROMEC!=20
NIE SME MAKEDONCI A NE FYROMCI!

VECNO DA ZIVEE MAKEDONSKATA = ZEMJA!=20
VECNO DA ZIVEE MAKEDONSKIOT NAROD!

LONG LIVE MACEDONIAN! =
LONG=20 LIVE THE MACEDONIAN NATION!

MACEDONIA BELONGS TO THE MACEDONIANS = NO ONE=20 ELSE.

Ljupco=20 Mircevski-Trepet
President of the Organization
VMRO-MNM=20

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C085CB.4FE5F620-- From ned@greatbridge.com Thu Jan 25 00:54:11 2001 From: ned@greatbridge.com (Ned Lilly) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 19:54:11 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] Re: 6 questions References: <20010124050103.CFCA1F1FD@mail.python.org> <3A6EF307.C5297213@nextra.at> <20010125110651.I20124@tertius.net.au> Message-ID: <3A6F7932.9E8956C1@greatbridge.com> Bek Oberin wrote: > Menega Sabidussi wrote: > > > 3. what must one do to enable "posting from the web"? > > Not possible. We've got that working in a prototype on our site, and will contribute the patch as soon as we clean it up. BTW, we're also looking at porting the message storage (and user info, etc) to a PostgreSQL backend. Has anybody else done anything along these lines? Regards, Ned Lilly VP Hacker Relations Great Bridge, LLC From tanner@real-time.com Thu Jan 25 20:20:06 2001 From: tanner@real-time.com (Bob Tanner) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:20:06 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pipermail, large archives and performance Message-ID: <20010125142006.A26567@real-time.com> I am wondering what that road map is for mailman. Meaning what are the new features slated for the future. What enhancements to current features are planned. I posted a feature enchancement to SF: http://sourceforge.net/bugs/?func=detailbug&bug_id=128127&group_id=103 And pipermail is really causing problems. I have an mbox file that is 1.92Gb in size and it takes almost 14 hours to process the qfiles. I believe this is because qrunner(?) has a difficult time processing such large files to generate the archives. Am I way off base here? Browsing the archives is another unpleasant task. I think pipermail(?) does not work well on files of this size either. Is there any plans for enhance/replace these problems? I am willing to put my coding skill to work to fix these issues if there is some road map to follow. Thanks. -- Bob Tanner | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.mn-linux.org | Fax : (952)943-8500 Key fingerprint = 6C E9 51 4F D5 3E 4C 66 62 A9 10 E5 35 85 39 D9 From barry@digicool.com Thu Jan 25 22:08:18 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 17:08:18 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pipermail, large archives and performance References: <20010125142006.A26567@real-time.com> Message-ID: <14960.41938.387529.808324@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "BT" == Bob Tanner writes: BT> I am wondering what that road map is for mailman. I've been swamped with other work, specifically Python 2.1a1 and "paying gig" assignments. :) OTOH, I have a big chunk of rough Mailman 2.1 code that I'm working on, specifically finishing up the i18n stuff and a complete reworking of the qrunner subsystem along the lines of stuff discussed last year. It needs more testing before I can start checking things in. I'd like to have something released by the Python conference in March, though that will realistically just be a beta of 2.1. I'm on the hook for giving a talk about I18N at the conference, so expect a big push to get all that working. :) I had hoped to rewrite the persistent storage subsystem using zodb, but that's not going to happen until I can finish up some zodb enhancements (part of that aforementioned "paying gig"). My goal is still to add at least the features described on the Mailman 2.1 wiki page: http://www.zope.org/Members/bwarsaw/MailmanDesignNotes/MailmanTwoDotOne Feel free to add you're own wish list to this page as a comment (which you should be able to do without logging into zope.org -- let me know if there are any problems with that). BT> And pipermail is really causing problems. I have an mbox file BT> that is 1.92Gb in size and it takes almost 14 hours to process BT> the qfiles. This will be improved in 2.1 because there will be a separate qrunner for the archiver. It won't be in the critical path for getting mail through the system. It won't help Pipermail itself -- for that I'm still looking for someone to "own" that subsystem. I want Mailman to include a bundled Python archiver to make it easy to "download-and-go", but I don't have time to concentrate on improving Pipermail itself. Jeremy's done a great job for 2.0 but it really could use a rewrite. BT> I am willing to put my coding skill to work to fix these BT> issues if there is some road map to follow. If you want to start looking at improving Pipermail and generalizing the interface b/w the archiver and Mailman, that would be way cool. -Barry From tanner@real-time.com Fri Jan 26 06:02:51 2001 From: tanner@real-time.com (Bob Tanner) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 00:02:51 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Verbose with qrunner? In-Reply-To: <14960.41938.387529.808324@anthem.wooz.org>; from barry@digicool.com on Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:08:18PM -0500 References: <20010125142006.A26567@real-time.com> <14960.41938.387529.808324@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: <20010126000251.A6600@real-time.com> Is there a way to make qrunner more verbose? I am trying to figure out why qrunner is not processing my qfile directory. -- Bob Tanner | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.mn-linux.org | Fax : (952)943-8500 Key fingerprint = 6C E9 51 4F D5 3E 4C 66 62 A9 10 E5 35 85 39 D9 From marc_news@valinux.com Fri Jan 26 06:16:36 2001 From: marc_news@valinux.com (Marc MERLIN) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:16:36 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pipermail, large archives and performance In-Reply-To: <20010125142006.A26567@real-time.com>; from tanner@real-time.com on Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 02:20:06PM -0600 References: <20010125142006.A26567@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20010125221636.B8618@marc.merlins.org> On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 02:20:06PM -0600, Bob Tanner wrote: > I am wondering what that road map is for mailman. > > Meaning what are the new features slated for the future. What enhancements to > current features are planned. > > I posted a feature enchancement to SF: > > http://sourceforge.net/bugs/?func=detailbug&bug_id=128127&group_id=103 > > And pipermail is really causing problems. I have an mbox file that is > 1.92Gb in size and it takes almost 14 hours to process the qfiles. > > I believe this is because qrunner(?) has a difficult time processing such > large files to generate the archives. Am I way off base here? You are absolutely correct, I did some testing with sending 1000 messages to a list, and time went from 4mn until I received the last message to more than one hour when I had HTML archiving enabled. For sourceforge, I felt we couldn't afford the slowdown and turned off HTML archiving. I've left the text archiving enabled as it shouldn't be the part that's the slowest. Ideally, it'd be nice if we could update the HTML archive off line, once an hour or so, but apparently that's not possible (I didn't get any answer back to my enquiring Email) Marc -- Microsoft is to operating systems & security .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key From barry@digicool.com Fri Jan 26 06:43:54 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 01:43:54 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Verbose with qrunner? References: <20010125142006.A26567@real-time.com> <14960.41938.387529.808324@anthem.wooz.org> <20010126000251.A6600@real-time.com> Message-ID: <14961.7338.484533.757385@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "BT" == Bob Tanner writes: BT> Is there a way to make qrunner more verbose? You can always add syslog() calls to the script to trace its progress (i.e. crappy but reliable ol' printf :) BT> I am trying to figure out why qrunner is not processing my BT> qfile directory. What version of Mailman are you running and how many files are in the qfile directory? You may need to upgrade to 2.0.1. -Barry From tanner@real-time.com Fri Jan 26 06:47:11 2001 From: tanner@real-time.com (Bob Tanner) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 00:47:11 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Verbose with qrunner? In-Reply-To: <14961.7338.484533.757385@anthem.wooz.org>; from barry@digicool.com on Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:43:54AM -0500 References: <20010125142006.A26567@real-time.com> <14960.41938.387529.808324@anthem.wooz.org> <20010126000251.A6600@real-time.com> <14961.7338.484533.757385@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: <20010126004711.B9352@real-time.com> Quoting Barry A. Warsaw (barry@digicool.com): > > >>>>> "BT" == Bob Tanner writes: > > BT> Is there a way to make qrunner more verbose? > > You can always add syslog() calls to the script to trace its > progress (i.e. crappy but reliable ol' printf :) > > BT> I am trying to figure out why qrunner is not processing my > BT> qfile directory. > > What version of Mailman are you running and how many files are in the > qfile directory? You may need to upgrade to 2.0.1. Running 2.0 5,000 and climbing. -- Bob Tanner | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.mn-linux.org | Fax : (952)943-8500 Key fingerprint = 6C E9 51 4F D5 3E 4C 66 62 A9 10 E5 35 85 39 D9 From tanner@real-time.com Fri Jan 26 06:49:16 2001 From: tanner@real-time.com (Bob Tanner) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 00:49:16 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pipermail, large archives and performance In-Reply-To: <20010125221636.B8618@marc.merlins.org>; from marc_news@valinux.com on Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 10:16:36PM -0800 References: <20010125142006.A26567@real-time.com> <20010125221636.B8618@marc.merlins.org> Message-ID: <20010126004916.C9352@real-time.com> Quoting Marc MERLIN (marc_news@valinux.com): > For sourceforge, I felt we couldn't afford the slowdown and turned off HTML > archiving. I've left the text archiving enabled as it shouldn't be the part > that's the slowest. I did not know you could do just text archiving. In 2.0, I don't see the option to archive just text. -- Bob Tanner | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.mn-linux.org | Fax : (952)943-8500 Key fingerprint = 6C E9 51 4F D5 3E 4C 66 62 A9 10 E5 35 85 39 D9 From barry@digicool.com Fri Jan 26 06:49:58 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 01:49:58 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Verbose with qrunner? References: <20010125142006.A26567@real-time.com> <14960.41938.387529.808324@anthem.wooz.org> <20010126000251.A6600@real-time.com> <14961.7338.484533.757385@anthem.wooz.org> <20010126004711.B9352@real-time.com> Message-ID: <14961.7702.104386.225371@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "BT" == Bob Tanner writes: BT> Running 2.0 BT> 5,000 and climbing. Oh you definitely want to apply the 2.0 -> 2.0.1 patch. It fixes the bug you're experiencing. You can get it from Sourceforge. See the NEWS file entry for details. -Barry From barry@digicool.com Fri Jan 26 06:56:02 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 01:56:02 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pipermail, large archives and performance References: <20010125142006.A26567@real-time.com> <20010125221636.B8618@marc.merlins.org> Message-ID: <14961.8066.494475.408958@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "MM" == Marc MERLIN writes: MM> Ideally, it'd be nice if we could update the HTML archive off MM> line, once an hour or so, but apparently that's not possible MM> (I didn't get any answer back to my enquiring Email) 2.1 should be much better here. First, the archiver will run out of a separate queue, and thus in a separate process. Second, you will probably be able to tune how frequently each separate qrunner process will run so you could make the archiver run once an hour if you want (this may be crude at first). The one trick that I haven't thought about yet is the list locking issues. I'm pretty sure that the archiver can do most of its work without locking the list, but I have to double check on that. If the archiver holds the list lock for a long time, it'll block any processing of new messages to the list, although it won't block the uploading of processed messages to the smtpd or nttpd -- those qrunners never acquire the list lock. experimental-ly y'rs, -Barry From claw@kanga.nu Fri Jan 26 07:17:15 2001 From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 23:17:15 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] Re: 6 questions In-Reply-To: Message from Ned Lilly of "Wed, 24 Jan 2001 19:54:11 EST." <3A6F7932.9E8956C1@greatbridge.com> References: <20010124050103.CFCA1F1FD@mail.python.org> <3A6EF307.C5297213@nextra.at> <20010125110651.I20124@tertius.net.au> <3A6F7932.9E8956C1@greatbridge.com> Message-ID: <13571.980493435@kanga.nu> On Wed, 24 Jan 2001 19:54:11 -0500 Ned Lilly wrote: > Bek Oberin wrote: >> Menega Sabidussi wrote: >> >> > 3. what must one do to enable "posting from the web"? >> >> Not possible. > We've got that working in a prototype on our site, and will > contribute the patch as soon as we clean it up. I currently do this by using MHonArc as an external archiver to generate PHP files of the messages, which then support the ability to post replies via the web. Its proven fairly popular with my list members. > BTW, we're also looking at porting the message storage (and user > info, etc) to a PostgreSQL backend. Has anybody else done > anything along these lines? I've toyed with it but haven't taken the leap. The PHP files that I have MHonArc creating are simple lists of variable assignments. It would be fairly easy to take these sets of variable assignments and use them as the source data for SQL INSERT commands. In fact I've played with a couple basic fault intolerant scripts to do this and they worked for as far as I was interested in taking them then. The really intersting stuff, which I was looking towards but never got as far as, was then dynamically building appropriately threaded and extracted-view indexes from the SQL side (you can get really interesting on that score). Note: MHonArc re-writes preciously archived messages to patch in forward pointers (threads etc) as relevant. This would need to be accounted for. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From john.read@newnet-marketing.de Fri Jan 26 14:01:43 2001 From: john.read@newnet-marketing.de (John Read) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:01:43 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] suggestions for i18n Message-ID: I suggested to Juan last week, who correctly said that I should mention it here, that it would be a great advantage for mailservers with different types of lists which require not only different languages but also different style of messages per list, if the message could be defined per list. I have a suggestion how this can be done very easily. If the function maketext (in Utils) had an addition parameter "list", it could first try to open the text file in mailman/list/"listname"/"lang". If the file is not there, then it could continue to take it from /mailman/templates/"lang" as you have coded it. This would mean that if the list manager wanted to put special messages in a list he can create them in the list/"listname"/"lang"/....... directory. The normal list manager would not notice any difference. This would be a great feature for us here as we have very different styles of lists which need deferent "tone" of messages. I have another question. In the v2.1 expected functions, you have listed the function to enter the full name. This leads onto a completely new set of possibilities with links into databases, and personalised mailings, etc. I can imagine that all these possibilities are too complex to fit into one program (mailman), but what about an simple API where the completed email (with associated data) could be presented to another application for further processing, eg filling fields in the email from a db. Applications could then designed separately by other groups, and slotted in required by the list managers. I could certainly help doing some coding. regards -- John Read NewNet Marketing Waldweg 15 83558 Maitenbeth Tel: +49-8076-8879818 Fax: +49-8076-8879819 From barry@digicool.com Fri Jan 26 16:41:10 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:41:10 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] suggestions for i18n References: Message-ID: <14961.43174.484490.221815@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "JR" == John Read writes: JR> I have a suggestion how this can be done very easily. If the JR> function maketext (in Utils) had an addition parameter "list", JR> it could first try to open the text file in JR> mailman/list/"listname"/"lang". If the file is not there, then JR> it could continue to take it from /mailman/templates/"lang" as JR> you have coded it. This would mean that if the list manager JR> wanted to put special messages in a list he can create them in JR> the list/"listname"/"lang"/....... directory. The normal list JR> manager would not notice any difference. That sounds like a good idea. JR> I have another question. In the v2.1 expected functions, you JR> have listed the function to enter the full name. This leads JR> onto a completely new set of possibilities with links into JR> databases, and personalised mailings, etc. I can imagine that JR> all these possibilities are too complex to fit into one JR> program (mailman), but what about an simple API where the JR> completed email (with associated data) could be presented to JR> another application for further processing, eg filling fields JR> in the email from a db. Applications could then designed JR> separately by other groups, and slotted in required by the JR> list managers. Here's how I would envision that. Let's say you had a list for which you wanted to do some extra prep work on messages before they were sent out. You would write a module for the Handlers directory which performed this prep work. This module would hid all the communication with the external service. Next, you'd figure out where in the normal message pipeline you want your special module to go. Now you have two choices: - you can add your module to the global pipeline, and only perform the work when you see a message destined for one of your special lists (the MailList object gets passed as a parameter to your module's process() function). - you can specialize your list's pipeline to include your new module. In 2.1 the main processing qrunner (IncomingRunner) looks in three places for a pipeline to process the message on: the message's metadata (used primarily for requeued messages), the MailList object's `pipeline' attribute, then the global pipeline. There probably won't be a convenient API for setting the list's pipeline at first, but it would be trivial to write a withlist script to add it. Make sense? -Barry From jcrey@uma.es Fri Jan 26 17:33:23 2001 From: jcrey@uma.es (Juan Carlos Rey Anaya) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 18:33:23 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] suggestions for i18n References: <14961.43174.484490.221815@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: <3A71B4E3.EAFEBD58@uma.es> "Barry A. Warsaw" wrote: > = > >>>>> "JR" =3D=3D John Read writes: > = > JR> I have a suggestion how this can be done very easily. If the > JR> function maketext (in Utils) had an addition parameter "list", > JR> it could first try to open the text file in > JR> mailman/list/"listname"/"lang". If the file is not there, then > JR> it could continue to take it from /mailman/templates/"lang" as > JR> you have coded it. This would mean that if the list manager > JR> wanted to put special messages in a list he can create them in > JR> the list/"listname"/"lang"/....... directory. The normal list > JR> manager would not notice any difference. > = > That sounds like a good idea. Received. Cheers -- = ___ / F \ [[[]]]] ( O O ) #----------------0000--(_)--0000---------------# | Juan Carlos Rey Anaya (jcrey@uma.es) | | Servicio Central de inform=E1tica | | Universidad de M=E1laga - Espa=F1a | #----------------------------------------------# # reynini@22x28.org pa los globeros :-) # #----------------------------------------------# From marc_news@valinux.com Fri Jan 26 19:20:12 2001 From: marc_news@valinux.com (Marc MERLIN) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:20:12 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Pipermail, large archives and performance In-Reply-To: <20010126004916.C9352@real-time.com>; from tanner@real-time.com on Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 12:49:16AM -0600 References: <20010125142006.A26567@real-time.com> <20010125221636.B8618@marc.merlins.org> <20010126004916.C9352@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20010126112012.E16403@marc.merlins.org> On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 12:49:16AM -0600, Bob Tanner wrote: > Quoting Marc MERLIN (marc_news@valinux.com): > > For sourceforge, I felt we couldn't afford the slowdown and turned off HTML > > archiving. I've left the text archiving enabled as it shouldn't be the part > > that's the slowest. > > I did not know you could do just text archiving. In 2.0, I don't see the > option to archive just text. ~mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py: # ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX #-1 - do not do any archiving # 0 - do not archive to mbox, use builtin mailman html archiving only # 1 - archive to mbox to use an external archiving mechanism only # 2 - archive to both mbox and builtin mailman html archiving - # use this to make both external archiving mechanism work and # mailman's builtin html archiving. the flat mail file can be # useful for searching, external archivers, etc. # ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX = 1 Marc -- Microsoft is to operating systems & security .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key From Dan Mick Fri Jan 26 23:36:28 2001 From: Dan Mick (Dan Mick) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:36:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] suggestions for i18n Message-ID: <200101262334.PAA26962@utopia.west.sun.com> > >>>>> "JR" == John Read writes: > > JR> I have a suggestion how this can be done very easily. If the > JR> function maketext (in Utils) had an addition parameter "list", > JR> it could first try to open the text file in > JR> mailman/list/"listname"/"lang". If the file is not there, then > JR> it could continue to take it from /mailman/templates/"lang" as > JR> you have coded it. This would mean that if the list manager > JR> wanted to put special messages in a list he can create them in > JR> the list/"listname"/"lang"/....... directory. The normal list > JR> manager would not notice any difference. > > That sounds like a good idea. That's exactly what my "per-list template" patch, which I've been reworking for every version since 2.0beta1, does. I figure the I18N stuff will completely make the patch invalid, but "first look in the list directory" is the easy poor-man's 'list-specific' hack. The only problem you had with it, Barry, as I remember, was the minor ugliness of "passing the list around to maketext". I ended up passing list._full_name just to keep *some* of the data abstraction in place, but was never really satisfied with the solution. Maybe there should be a "get list directory" method. From barry@digicool.com Fri Jan 26 23:38:32 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 18:38:32 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] suggestions for i18n References: <200101262334.PAA26962@utopia.west.sun.com> Message-ID: <14962.2680.864396.193100@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "DM" == Dan Mick writes: DM> That's exactly what my "per-list template" patch, which I've DM> been reworking for every version since 2.0beta1, does. I DM> figure the I18N stuff will completely make the patch invalid, DM> but "first look in the list directory" is the easy poor-man's DM> 'list-specific' hack. The only problem you had with it, DM> Barry, as I remember, was the minor ugliness of "passing the DM> list around to maketext". I ended up passing list._full_name DM> just to keep *some* of the data abstraction in place, but was DM> never really satisfied with the solution. Maybe there should DM> be a "get list directory" method. Ah, good, thanks for the reminder Dan. Okay, once the language stuff is solidified I'll look at your patch and work it in. -Barry From scott-brown@home.com Sun Jan 28 06:10:53 2001 From: scott-brown@home.com (Scott Brown) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 01:10:53 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Feature Request - Inbound MessageID tracking Message-ID: <000301c088f1$12993420$0401a8c0@ibmpeers> Ok - I dont know how widely useful this might be - but it would have saved my bacon today. I had a list get flooded by an upstream mail server that was stuck on sending a message to me. Every message that came in had the same messageID on it - and mailman dutifully kept pushing them out.... 200+ of them before I disabled the mailman list, and finally got the other server admin to clean up his machine. Would it be possible in the next release to get some sort of tracking on processed messages - tracking by incoming messageID - such that this sort of problem wouldnt be sent out to list subscribers? A message to the mailman-owner alias indicating the problem when it gets found should be sufficient to alert the admin to look into things. From barry@digicool.com Sun Jan 28 06:29:41 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 01:29:41 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Feature Request - Inbound MessageID tracking References: <000301c088f1$12993420$0401a8c0@ibmpeers> Message-ID: <14963.48213.234335.509501@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "SB" == Scott Brown writes: SB> Would it be possible in the next release to get some sort of SB> tracking on processed messages - tracking by incoming SB> messageID - such that this sort of problem wouldnt be sent out SB> to list subscribers? Yes, it's a good idea. Message ID's should be tracked for a short amount of time. -Barry From satyap@satya.virtualave.net Sun Jan 28 16:00:29 2001 From: satyap@satya.virtualave.net (Satya) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 21:30:29 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Feature Request - Inbound MessageID tracking In-Reply-To: <000301c088f1$12993420$0401a8c0@ibmpeers> Message-ID: On Jan 28, 2001 at 01:10, Scott Brown wrote: >sending a message to me. Every message that came in had the same messageID >on it - and mailman dutifully kept pushing them out.... 200+ of them before [snip] >Would it be possible in the next release to get some sort of tracking on >processed messages - tracking by incoming messageID - such that this sort I may have a suggestion for a temporary solution. There is a procmail (yes, procmail. Hear me out.) recipe to do exactly this. It involves piping through formail, collecting message-ids and comparing with a cache. I don't know how you could force each message through formail, except through some simple but non-trivial shell scripts. -- Satya. US-bound grad students! For pre-apps, see Reduce carbon dioxide emmissions - stop breathing From cpr@emsoftware.com Mon Jan 29 18:46:57 2001 From: cpr@emsoftware.com (Chris Ryland) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 10:46:57 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] suggestion for documentation Message-ID: <00ea01c08a23$f07aec10$6601a8c0@EM2> I can't check www.list.org right now, but if I remember correctly, during Mailman 2.0 installation, no note was made about Apache needing a Options FollowSymLinks which is required if such symlink following is turned off by default elsewhere in the Apache configuration file. I realize this is getting into pretty nebulous territory, but it might save someone some hair-pulling and is easy to mention. -- Cheers! Chris Ryland Em Software, Inc. www.emsoftware.com From bedmonds@antarcti.ca Mon Jan 29 17:45:25 2001 From: bedmonds@antarcti.ca (Brian Edmonds) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 09:45:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] make admin password sticky Message-ID: I would find it really handy if Mailman would set a special cookie when I authenticate to a list's admin page with the Mailman admin password, so that it would then let me in to all other lists without prompting for a password. I often go through a bunch of lists at a time clearing out the non-member spam posts from the admin approval queue, and it would be nice to not have to type passwords over and over. Brian. From darrell@grumblesmurf.net Mon Jan 29 19:10:23 2001 From: darrell@grumblesmurf.net (Darrell Fuhriman) Date: 29 Jan 2001 11:10:23 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Feature Request - Inbound MessageID tracking In-Reply-To: Satya's message of "Sun, 28 Jan 2001 21:30:29 +0530 (IST)" References: Message-ID: Satya writes: > comparing with a cache. I don't know how you could force each message > through formail, except through some simple but non-trivial shell scripts. Assuming you know how to set procmail up initially, it's pretty simple really, just change the alias for posting to the list to be simply the mailman user (which can't be aliased to anything else), then, in ~mailman/.procmailrc: MMHOME=/usr/local/mailman :0c * ^TOlistname@example.com { LISTNAME=listname PROCESSED=yes :0 Wh: msgid.lock.$LISTNAME | formail -D 8192 $HOME/msgid.cache.$LISTNAME :0 | $MMHOME/mail/wrapper post $LISTNAME } [repeat for each list] # when we reach this point, we should have been processed # by *something*. If we have, we can discard it, otherwise # let the admin look at it. :0 * PROCESSED ?? yes /dev/null :0 $DEFAULT I haven't tested this, though, so don't blame me if you break something. :) Anyhow, it should be included in mailman, yes. :) Darrell From satyap@satya.virtualave.net Tue Jan 30 01:27:31 2001 From: satyap@satya.virtualave.net (Satya) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 06:57:31 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Feature Request - Inbound MessageID tracking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2001 at 11:10, Darrell Fuhriman wrote: >Satya writes: >> comparing with a cache. I don't know how you could force each message >> through formail, except through some simple but non-trivial shell scripts. > >Assuming you know how to set procmail up initially, it's pretty >simple really, just change the alias for posting to the list to >be simply the mailman user (which can't be aliased to anything >else), then, in ~mailman/.procmailrc: Aye, there's the rub. Procmail, unless compiled with a certain config flag, hates group-writeable directories. Mailman wants its home directory writeable. Of course, this'll work if procmail is compiled with that flag or ~mailman is not mailman's installation directory. -- Satya. US-bound grad students! For pre-apps, see Standards are wonderful! So many to pick from! From darrell@grumblesmurf.net Tue Jan 30 06:54:34 2001 From: darrell@grumblesmurf.net (Darrell Fuhriman) Date: 29 Jan 2001 22:54:34 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Feature Request - Inbound MessageID tracking In-Reply-To: Satya's message of "Tue, 30 Jan 2001 06:57:31 +0530 (IST)" References: Message-ID: Satya writes: > flag, hates group-writeable directories. Mailman wants its home directory > writeable. Not really. Mine isn't, and never has been. All it really cares about is that the directories under ~mailman are group-writable. Darrell From satyap@satya.virtualave.net Tue Jan 30 11:41:31 2001 From: satyap@satya.virtualave.net (Satya) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 17:11:31 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Feature Request - Inbound MessageID tracking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2001 at 22:54, Darrell Fuhriman wrote: >Satya writes: >> flag, hates group-writeable directories. Mailman wants its home directory ^^^^ 'installation', of course. >> writeable. >Not really. Mine isn't, and never has been. All it really cares >about is that the directories under ~mailman are group-writable. [mailman]~$ chmod g-w ../mailman [mailman]~$ bin/check_perms directory must be at least 02775: /home/mailman Problems found: 1 Re-run as mailman (or root) with -f flag to fix [mailman]~$ bin/version Using Mailman version 2.0.1 [mailman]~$ Perhaps your installation directory is not ~mailman? In that case, procmail+mailman work fine. When I installed, I didn't know I should put the installation directory elsewhere. Can I now shift it to ~mailman/install ? -- Satya. US-bound grad students! For pre-apps, see Computer lie #1: you'll never use all that disk space. From darrell@grumblesmurf.net Tue Jan 30 17:38:52 2001 From: darrell@grumblesmurf.net (Darrell Fuhriman) Date: 30 Jan 2001 09:38:52 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Feature Request - Inbound MessageID tracking In-Reply-To: Satya's message of "Tue, 30 Jan 2001 17:11:31 +0530 (IST)" References: Message-ID: Satya writes: > [mailman]~$ chmod g-w ../mailman > [mailman]~$ bin/check_perms > directory must be at least 02775: /home/mailman > Problems found: 1 > Re-run as mailman (or root) with -f flag to fix > [mailman]~$ bin/version > Using Mailman version 2.0.1 > [mailman]~$ I know that's what it *claims* it needs. The reality is different. % ls -ld ~mailman drwxr-sr-x 18 mailman mailman 512 Oct 26 15:16 /usr/local/mailman/ Anyway, this discussion doesn't belong on -developers.... Darrell From tim.one@home.com Mon Jan 1 00:13:12 2001 From: tim.one@home.com (Tim Peters) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 19:13:12 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] RE: [Python-Dev] Re: Most everything is busted In-Reply-To: <14926.34447.60988.553140@anthem.concentric.net> Message-ID: [Barry A. Warsaw] > There's a stupid, stupid bug in Mailman 2.0, which I've just fixed > and (hopefully) unjammed things on the Mailman end[1]. We're still > probably subject to the Postfix delays unfortunately; I think those > are DNS related, and I've gotten a few other reports of DNS oddities, > which I've forwarded off to the DC sysadmins. I don't think that > particular problem will be fixed until after the New Year. > > relax-and-enjoy-the-quiet-ly y'rs, I would have, except you appear to have ruined it: hundreds of msgs disgorged overnight and into the afternoon. And echoes of email to c.l.py now routinely come back in minutes instead of days. Overall, ya, I liked it better when it was broken -- jerk . typical-user-ly y'rs - tim From Dan.Mick@west.sun.com Mon Jan 1 02:56:15 2001 From: Dan.Mick@west.sun.com (Dan Mick) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 18:56:15 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Real Name Support References: <3A4B5393.A14AFF22@earlham.edu> Message-ID: <3A4FF1CF.C82C6371@west.sun.com> "Barry A. Warsaw" wrote: > a stupid, stupid bug Is anyone else thinking of Plan 9 from Outer Space right now? :) :) (BTW, Barry: 'marouni'?) From trooster@interstroom.nl Mon Jan 1 09:32:22 2001 From: trooster@interstroom.nl (Joris Trooster) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 10:32:22 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Monthly reminder Errors-To etc Message-ID: <006801c073d5$ce19cec0$0d00a8c0@dexter> If mailman sends the monthly reminders, the Return-Path, Sender, Errors-To and X-BeenThere header tags will be set to a 'random' mailinglist created on your system. Even if you have set up mailman with different virtual-hosts, another virtual host can be set in the mail header Sender. Have a look some relevant code of /yourpath/mailman/cron/mailpasswds : def mail_passwords(mlist, hosts): HandlerAPI.DeliverToUser(mlist, msg, {'_nolist': 1}) def main(): a_public_list = None for listname in Utils.list_names(): mlist = MailList.MailList(listname, lock=0) if not a_public_list and mlist.advertised: a_public_list = mlist if a_public_list: mail_passwords(a_public_list, hosts) And the comments in the code: "The list can be any random one - it is only used for the message delivery mechanism." You see that it is the first mailinglist created on your system that is used for setting the Return-Path, Sender, Errors-To, X-BeenThere headers in the monthly reminder messages. A quick solution is to change the code (at the end) in cron/mailpasswds to: ..... if a_public_list: # This line is added to set a custom Sender in het mailheader: a_public_list=MailList.MailList(mm_cfg.MONTHLY_SENDER, lock=0) a_public_list.Lock() try: mail_passwords(a_public_list, hosts) ..... And add to Mailman/mm_cfg.py : # Use this list as the Return-Path, Sender, Errors-To and X-BeenThere headers # for the monthly reminders. Be sure that this list exists!! MONTHLY_SENDER = 'defaultlist' It's just a quick work around. It should be better to have a separate Sender for the montly reminders (wish list for future versions!). Regards, Joris Trooster Netherlands John Martin wrote: - -------------- cut here ---->8 ---< head Return-Path: Delivered-To: jam@jamux.com Subject: lists.essential.org mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@venice.essential.org To: jam@essential.org Sender: ababa-admin@venice.essential.org Errors-To: ababa-admin@venice.essential.org X-BeenThere: ababa@lists.essential.org - ---- 8<------- cut here ----------> tail with the bogus envelope sender, "Errors-To" and header-sender presumably causing to be inundated with delivery error notices. Is this an error that has crept into my Mailman configuration, or is this what Mailman will do until the item on the To Do list is resolved? From jeffrey@thompsonic.com Mon Jan 1 15:30:10 2001 From: jeffrey@thompsonic.com (Jeffrey Thompson) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 10:30:10 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Typo in Software Generated Page Content Message-ID: <3A50A282.4BE2302A@thompsonic.com> I have located a typo in the pending admin decision: Administrative requests for mailing list: My-List I read: For each held posting, select the action to take by choosing one of Defer - Defer your decision until later. Use this if you just want to forward or preserve (see below) the message but not dispose of it yet. Approve - Approve the message and send it on to the list. Reject - Reject the message, sending a rejection notice to the sender. The original message is discarded. Discard - The original message is discarded with no rejection message being sent. This option is useful for spam. Turn on the Preserve option if you want to save a copy if this message for the site administrator. Should be: "... save a copy OF this message ..." that is part of the software, and you hopefully a developer will correct it. Jeffrey Thompson From claw@kanga.nu Mon Jan 1 19:44:56 2001 From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 11:44:56 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailing List Subscription Request (fwd) Message-ID: <21800.978378296@kanga.nu> V3 really needs to support something like the following: ------- Forwarded Message Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 14:40:22 -0500 To: claw@kanga.nu Subject: Mailing List Subscription Request From: general@securityspace.com Reply-To: general@securityspace.com Someone, possibly you, has requested that the address claw@kanga.nu be registered to receive daily news at www.securityspace.com. To complete the list subscription process, please go to: http://www.securityspace.com/secnews/confirm.html?email=claw@kanga.nu&code= Alternatively, if the above line was split by your browser, you may need to go directly to the URL http://www.securityspace.com/secnews/confirm.html and enter your email address and activation code If you do not wish to complete the registration, you don't need to do anything. Security News Services http://www.securityspace.com/ ------- End of Forwarded Message -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From barry@digicool.com Mon Jan 1 20:38:03 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 15:38:03 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailing List Subscription Request (fwd) References: <21800.978378296@kanga.nu> Message-ID: <14928.60075.85334.647411@anthem.concentric.net> >>>>> "JCL" == J C Lawrence writes: JCL> V3 really needs to support something like the following: I completely agree, and, if some of the things I've been playing with over the holidays pan out, it'll be easy to add this. -Barry From blitztec@bigpond.net.au Mon Jan 1 21:42:12 2001 From: blitztec@bigpond.net.au (blitztec@bigpond.net.au) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:42:12 +1000 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Feature request Message-ID: <20010102074212.A4108@bigpond.net.au> A really simple one, I'm currently doing this with procmail, but it would be nice if it could be built in to the mailman system itself. Similar to egroups or other servers running qmail's ezmlm software when I email mylist-subscribe@mydomain.com blank email, it converts it to a subscribe request same for mylist-unsubscribe@mydomain.com totally idiot proof for thoes users who can't even get a subscribe request right. Thanks From Mitchell From info8@networkshosts.com Mon Jan 1 21:28:54 2001 From: info8@networkshosts.com (info8@networkshosts.com) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 16:28:54 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] You Can Boost Windows reliability!!!! Message-ID: Dear Windows User, Now you can boost the reliability of ordinary Windows ME, 95 and 98 to nearly the level of Windows NT or 2000, Microsoft's professional and industrial version of Windows. The new WinFix 4.4 is a very effective way to improve the reliability of Windows, because it makes Windows fault-tolerant and self-repairing. And WinFix is very safe, because it operates completely independent of Windows. http://www3.networkshosts.com/comph to find out more about WinFix, the safest, most effective way to keep you working, by keeping your PC working non-stop. Arlen Dixon, CEO Westwood Software Marketing * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This announcement is being sent to PC users who asked to be kept informed about new developments in Windows(tm) technology. To be removed from our mailing list, go to the Email-us page. OR To be removed mailto:remove@www3.networkshosts.com?Subject=REMOVE From jeffrey@thompsonic.com Mon Jan 1 22:44:06 2001 From: jeffrey@thompsonic.com (Jeffrey Thompson) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 17:44:06 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator Message-ID: <3A510836.8418A284@thompsonic.com> --------------E5782D7ECAE3851F80B388FA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On my mailing list I have a real trouble maker (currently removed). So, I was just thinking, whether I could ask one list member, whether he would be willing to moderate this man's postings. If we could flag individual members for approving other's messages, a half-moderator in a sense, then that would further reduce the work of the "full moderators" So, the question is: Could a person become a half-moderator, who can approve messages of a person flagged for message moderating, but who would not be a full moderator who can see all the members email addresses, archives, etc.? I don't have the time to do the moderating of all the messages. But at the same time, I don't want to open up the management of my entire list. There are lots of people with psychological problems for whom such a feature on a mailing list would be good, to have their "personal mentor" moderate their postings. What do you think? The alternative would be, let him send his messages to this person first, and after checking them, the other member sends them to the list. But do we have an option of "only receiving messages" but "not submitting messages to the list"? I can't remember to have seen that. That in itself might also be a good feature to add in general. Have separate address lists of "readers" and "writers" for the list. Usually writers would be readers too. I have seen that you can specify people who can send without being members, i.e. not receiving. But I would need it the other way around. Or did I just overlook that? Thanks for any help you can give, Jeffrey Thompson --------------E5782D7ECAE3851F80B388FA Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On my mailing list I have a real trouble maker (currently removed).
So, I was just thinking, whether I could ask one list member, whether he
would be willing to moderate this man's postings.

If we could flag individual members for approving other's messages,
a half-moderator in a sense, then that would further reduce the work of
the "full moderators"

I don't have the time to do the moderating of all the messages.
But at the same time, I don't want to open up the management
of my entire list.

There are lots of people with psychological problems for whom such a feature
on a mailing list would be good, to have their "personal mentor"
moderate their postings.

Thanks for any help you can give,

Jeffrey Thompson

I have not tested what it means to have the whole list moderated, but
I assume, that this is not just for "special people" but that all
moderation is done via web interface. Now, that might be okay in the USA,
where you have flat rates, no phone fees to access the internet.
But in most other countries, we pay by the minute of online time.
So, for nearly every admin outside North America, administration
including moderating a mailing list via email will save a lot of
money, because downloading is quick, but reading potentially large emails
really costs time. Maybe you want to bring that to the attention of
the mailman developers? Doing the settings of the list on the web is
okay, but anything regular and time-intensive should be made possible to
handle via email.

The International users would appreciate developers doing the Mailcmd todo items
sooner than rather than later,

Thank you ,

Jeffrey Thompson
--------------92A7250D38F129901E7898CD-- From claw@kanga.nu Tue Jan 2 06:18:26 2001 From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 22:18:26 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator In-Reply-To: Message from Jeffrey Thompson of "Mon, 01 Jan 2001 17:44:06 EST." <3A510836.8418A284@thompsonic.com> References: <3A510836.8418A284@thompsonic.com> Message-ID: <28419.978416306@kanga.nu> On Mon, 01 Jan 2001 17:44:06 -0500 Jeffrey Thompson wrote: > On my mailing list I have a real trouble maker (currently > removed). So, I was just thinking, whether I could ask one list > member, whether he would be willing to moderate this man's > postings. Ooooo! Iinteresting, private moderation queues -- I hadn't considered that. Doing that with the current Mailman design would be difficult or even downright painful. Given the modular architecture we've discussed so far for v3 this could be done by dropping in moderation modules that filtered which contents of the moderation queue were presented on some moderation login basis. You'd have to replace the moderation message listing modules obviously, and replace the account management modules so as to support the extra data/fields... Cute. > What do you think? The alternative would be, let him send his > messages to this person first, and after checking them, the other > member sends them to the list. But do we have an option of "only > receiving messages" but "not submitting messages to the list"? I > can't remember to have seen that. Taht doesn't exist currently, no, but you could fake it with a procmail filter sitting before the list which diverted posts that match some pattern. > That in itself might also be a good feature to add in general. > Have separate address lists of "readers" and "writers" for the > list. Usually writers would be readers too. I have seen that you > can specify people who can send without being members, i.e. not > receiving. But I would need it the other way around. Or did I just > overlook that? If we run with the abstracted UserAccount model which possesses one ore more EmailAddresses etc model we've discussed for v3 this works quite easily as it is email addresses which subscribe to lists, and accounts which post. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From claw@kanga.nu Tue Jan 2 06:20:06 2001 From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 22:20:06 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailing List Subscription Request (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message from Les Niles of "Mon, 01 Jan 2001 16:31:53 PST." <200101020031.QAA13315@mutiny.2pi.org> References: <21800.978378296@kanga.nu> <200101020031.QAA13315@mutiny.2pi.org> Message-ID: <28550.978416406@kanga.nu> On Mon, 1 Jan 2001 16:31:53 -0800 Les Niles wrote: > On Mon, 01 Jan 2001 11:44:56 -0800 J C Lawrence > wrote: >> V3 really needs to support something like the following: > If I understand what you're asking for -- a click-on-this-link > mechanism for subscription confirmation -- there's a patch I > submitted, #102018, that does it. The mail-it-in options are > retained. We should have all three supports: 1) Email confirm. 2) Visit URL to confirm. 3) Visit URL and enter account data to confirm. BTW: Nice job on the patch -- I should have a look at that. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From claw@kanga.nu Tue Jan 2 06:22:26 2001 From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 22:22:26 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Debian packaging information In-Reply-To: Message from Mark Tearle of "Tue, 02 Jan 2001 12:35:28 +0800." References: Message-ID: <28698.978416546@kanga.nu> On Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:35:28 +0800 (WST) Mark Tearle wrote: > Hi Just a quick question - is there a reason why the debian > packaging information is not in the mailman CVS tree? Because Mailman is not a Debian project, and the Debian Mailman packager is not directly affiliated with Mailman. Much list, say, XFree86, the Debian packager periodically grabs the distribution tarballs, patches them, and then builds a .deb. Do an apt-get source mailman to see the details. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From chuqui@plaidworks.com Tue Jan 2 06:26:00 2001 From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:26:00 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator In-Reply-To: <28419.978416306@kanga.nu> References: <3A510836.8418A284@thompsonic.com> <28419.978416306@kanga.nu> Message-ID: (one administrative note -- can we please NOT post to both -users and -developers? It's either a use issue, or a developer issue. posting to both simply wastes time and energy and bandwidth, and annoys the developers who have to plow through the same messages multiple times -- and accomplishes nothing useful.. choose a list and use it, don't shotgun a message to the universe hoping someone will notice.. thanks) At 10:18 PM -0800 1/1/01, J C Lawrence wrote: >Given the modular architecture we've discussed so far for v3 this >could be done by dropping in moderation modules that filtered which >contents of the moderation queue were presented on some moderation >login basis. You'd have to replace the moderation message listing >modules obviously, and replace the account management modules so as >to support the extra data/fields... Or you could simply create a concept of a named queue (moderator-chuq), attach a moderator to it, and build some way of defining regex values that would put messages in that queue. A regex of "From: lamer@foo.org" -> moderator-chuq would then take any incoming message and put it in any appropriate outgoing queue. Which, if you then generalize it, allows you to simply define ALL queues in terms of some kind of "owner" (which may be a function, a person or some other operation), and then you can make the mailman logic loop be nothing more than a state machine looking at messages and attaching them to queues based on the state definitions. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) We're visiting the relatives. Cover us. From jeffrey@thompsonic.com Tue Jan 2 12:08:50 2001 From: jeffrey@thompsonic.com (Jeffrey Thompson) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 07:08:50 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator References: <3A510836.8418A284@thompsonic.com> <28419.978416306@kanga.nu> Message-ID: <3A51C4D1.DD1118F@thompsonic.com> Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > (one administrative note -- can we please NOT post to both -users and > -developers? It's either a use issue, or a developer issue. posting > to both simply wastes time and energy and bandwidth, and annoys the > developers who have to plow through the same messages multiple times > -- and accomplishes nothing useful.. choose a list and use it, don't > shotgun a message to the universe hoping someone will notice.. thanks) Sorry I disagree. I am proposing new features that other users might be interested in. Users like to know about such things. Also, developers need to know new proposed features too, or else, how will they be implemented? I think in the case of "New Suggested Features" it makes sense to post to both groups. Maybe we need a New Suggested Features list? And then I wouldn't have to post to either :-) > Or you could simply create a concept of a named queue > (moderator-chuq), attach a moderator to it, and build some way of > defining regex values that would put messages in that queue. A regex > of "From: lamer@foo.org" -> moderator-chuq would then take any > incoming message and put it in any appropriate outgoing queue. > > Which, if you then generalize it, allows you to simply define ALL > queues in terms of some kind of "owner" (which may be a function, a > person or some other operation), and then you can make the mailman > logic loop be nothing more than a state machine looking at messages > and attaching them to queues based on the state definitions. Cool concept there. I like that idea. And, also you could further define a queue as containing sub-queues. In the case of a "half-moderator" he would be monitoring part of a queue, and would in effect moderate a sub-queue. So the larger queue would contain all of the people subscribed, plus additional sub-queues that are moderated seperately. -- Jeffrey Thompson From davek@mail.commercedata.com Tue Jan 2 16:50:27 2001 From: davek@mail.commercedata.com (Dave Klingler) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 09:50:27 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator In-Reply-To: <3A51C4D1.DD1118F@thompsonic.com> from "Jeffrey Thompson" at Jan 02, 2001 07:08:50 AM Message-ID: <200101021650.JAA20997@mail.commercedata.com> Jeffrey Thompson wrote: > Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > Which, if you then generalize it, allows you to simply define ALL > > queues in terms of some kind of "owner" (which may be a function, a > > person or some other operation), and then you can make the mailman > > logic loop be nothing more than a state machine looking at messages > > and attaching them to queues based on the state definitions. > Just peeping in from the outside, and from what little I've ferreted about how Mailman works: This is a neat thread, because at this point (a big pile of queues) the work needed to throw the whole thing into a database is trivial. Chuq, Apple's EOF would let you build a Mailman analog in under an hour, btw! Faster and easier to maintain! > Cool concept there. I like that idea. And, also you could further define > a queue > as containing sub-queues. In the case of a "half-moderator" he would be > monitoring > part of a queue, and would in effect moderate a sub-queue. So the larger > queue would > contain all of the people subscribed, plus additional sub-queues that are > moderated seperately. and then it gets more complicated, but maybe not. Now we have objects, each containing data (or pointers to a database somewhere) and code. If each queue object contains a specific function or functions for dealing with it then things begin to package up nicely and the architecture gets cleaner. Then you can have Class Queue { function insertEntry function deleteEntry function processQueue function mySpecialPurpose pointerToObject destinationQueue listpointer queueData } so that processQueue looks like { while queueData { mySpecialPurpose; if destinationQueue { [destinationQueue processQueue]; } } and a cron entry would just call things the way it does now, or in my case, another little daemon because my crond seems not to do what I tell it to do. The contents of the qfiles and lists directories merge together, maybe into a new qfiles directory because queues and lists are the same. Apologies for wasting your time/email bandwidth if all of this is nonsensical or irrelevant. I'm just now learning how Mailman works, so I seriously considered not sending the results of my enthusiasm to the list. I also tend to think in terms of Objective C, so my pseudorambling mushes everything together. *sniff* Hey, I wasn't going to spend time on this. I'll just get out of the way, then. Dave Klingler From barry@digicool.com Tue Jan 2 18:46:42 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:46:42 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Debian packaging information References: Message-ID: <14930.8722.241879.731205@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "MT" == Mark Tearle writes: MT> Just a quick question - is there a reason why the debian MT> packaging information is not in the mailman CVS tree? Does it need to be? I don't personally do the packaging, but if it would help packagers to include config files in the tree someplace, then I'll include any relevant donated files. -Barry From chuqui@plaidworks.com Tue Jan 2 18:32:58 2001 From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:32:58 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator In-Reply-To: <200101021650.JAA20997@mail.commercedata.com> References: <200101021650.JAA20997@mail.commercedata.com> Message-ID: At 9:50 AM -0700 1/2/01, Dave Klingler wrote: >This is a neat thread, because at this point (a big pile of queues) the >work needed to throw the whole thing into a database is trivial. Chuq, >Apple's EOF would let you build a Mailman analog in under an hour, btw! >Faster and easier to maintain! I was kinda thinking the same thing -- you start looking in terms of messages and semaphores instead of a real queue manager. And instead of moving messages among queues, you simply pass a token around from place to place until mailman is done with it... Doing this in a decent database becomes really interesting (in a fun way, not in a grind your teeth way) chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) We're visiting the relatives. Cover us. From claw@kanga.nu Tue Jan 2 21:15:57 2001 From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 13:15:57 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Tue, 02 Jan 2001 10:32:58 PST." References: <200101021650.JAA20997@mail.commercedata.com> Message-ID: <28429.978470157@kanga.nu> On Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:32:58 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > At 9:50 AM -0700 1/2/01, Dave Klingler wrote: >> This is a neat thread, because at this point (a big pile of >> queues) the work needed to throw the whole thing into a database >> is trivial. Chuq, Apple's EOF would let you build a Mailman >> analog in under an hour, btw! Faster and easier to maintain! > I was kinda thinking the same thing -- you start looking in terms > of messages and semaphores instead of a real queue manager. And > instead of moving messages among queues, you simply pass a token > around from place to place until mailman is done with it... Percisely. However we need to maintain the abstraction of Mailman from its underlieing queue implementation, be it really implemented by something like MQS, just index twiddles in an SQL DB, or movelments of files among specially named/located directories. If we keep the queue model and just provide plugins for the (few) queue manipulation points -- which really just sumes to "move message X from queueA to queueB -- then we pretty well get the rest for free. > Doing this in a decent database becomes really interesting (in a > fun way, not in a grind your teeth way) True. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From chuqui@plaidworks.com Tue Jan 2 21:25:51 2001 From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:25:51 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator In-Reply-To: <28429.978470157@kanga.nu> References: <200101021650.JAA20997@mail.commercedata.com> <28429.978470157@kanga.nu> Message-ID: At 1:15 PM -0800 1/2/01, J C Lawrence wrote: >Percisely. However we need to maintain the abstraction of Mailman >from its underlieing queue implementation, I wonder -- would it make more sense to suck all this back into mailman, and simply create widgets that export into MQS for things that are being distributed to it, the way we'd create a widget to hand a message off to the digester? what do we buy by not doing this? And is it worht the added complexity and overhead? -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) We're visiting the relatives. Cover us. From claw@kanga.nu Tue Jan 2 22:28:45 2001 From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 14:28:45 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Tue, 02 Jan 2001 13:25:51 PST." References: <200101021650.JAA20997@mail.commercedata.com> <28429.978470157@kanga.nu> Message-ID: <1656.978474525@kanga.nu> On Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:25:51 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > At 1:15 PM -0800 1/2/01, J C Lawrence wrote: >> Percisely. However we need to maintain the abstraction of >> Mailman from its underlieing queue implementation, > I wonder -- would it make more sense to suck all this back into > mailman, and simply create widgets that export into MQS for things > that are being distributed to it, the way we'd create a widget to > hand a message off to the digester? what do we buy by not doing > this? And is it worht the added complexity and overhead? I don't see the gain by going this way, and I do see considerable loss. You are suggesting moving back from a fine-grained granular system to a more monolithic/enclusive approach. The normal justifications for this are efficiency/performance (which doesn't apply here as we're discussing areas which are not performance bound) and ease of implementation (which is actually a false metric as all you are really trading is effort at design time for effort at implementation time) Monolithic seems simpler on the face of it because you don't have to define your data flowpaths and dependencies before hand and its easier to get away with fudging it later without having to have thought through the whole problem before hand. Or, in translation: Its easier to hack as you go along and to grow organically during development. I don't see that as a viable or even valuable quality. I also don't like tools that have grown that way. Yes, this can be handled with developer discipline, but that doen't tend to be the way that projects grow -- and Mailman needs to get beyond the point of Barry being the only one doing any heavy lifting. If we keep to the fine grained approach the componenets will tend to be smaller and simpler and easier to design, write, and debug. We're going to have think more in the beginning to define what the framework and data dependency models are -- that's a classic tradeoff of where you spend your intelligence and brain hurt: in the design or the in the implementation -- but the result should be something which can then be easily extended in consistent fashions (or hacked) without pain. Or, to turn this around: I'd like to see Mailman become more of a mail handling/automation toolkit which happens to have a default example application for mailing lists. If we go with the fine grained approach we should be able to do *really* intereting things in v4. Heck, done right we're talking about defining a/the basic architecture for how scalable mail processing/automation systems are built (remember those comments about hooking a CRM tool off the side?). -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From mtearle@tearle.com Wed Jan 3 04:07:01 2001 From: mtearle@tearle.com (Mark Tearle) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:07:01 +0800 (WST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Debian packaging information In-Reply-To: <14930.8722.241879.731205@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > >>>>> "MT" == Mark Tearle writes: > > MT> Just a quick question - is there a reason why the debian > MT> packaging information is not in the mailman CVS tree? > > Does it need to be? I don't personally do the packaging, but if it > would help packagers to include config files in the tree someplace, > then I'll include any relevant donated files. > > -Barry Does it need to be? Probably not, the Debian packaging system copes with upstream versions of programs. Does it help? Yes, one canonical source for the packaging information and is more likely to track the latest version. A example would be a lot of the GNOME programs that have the packaging files in their CVS trees. The reason I asked is that I was wanting to install the latest CVS version of mailman on my system when I was hacking on it the other day and have my machine end up suffering a bad case of /usr/local-itis. Yours Mark -- Mark Tearle - mark@tearle.com "You howl and listen Listen and wait for the Echoes of angels who won't return" From davek@mail.commercedata.com Wed Jan 3 05:02:04 2001 From: davek@mail.commercedata.com (Dave Klingler) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:02:04 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jan 02, 2001 10:32:58 AM Message-ID: <200101030502.WAA22303@mail.commercedata.com> > At 9:50 AM -0700 1/2/01, Dave Klingler wrote: > >This is a neat thread, because at this point (a big pile of queues) the > >work needed to throw the whole thing into a database is trivial. Chuq, > >Apple's EOF would let you build a Mailman analog in under an hour, btw! > >Faster and easier to maintain! > > I was kinda thinking the same thing -- you start looking in terms of > messages and semaphores instead of a real queue manager. And instead > of moving messages among queues, you simply pass a token around from > place to place until mailman is done with it... > > Doing this in a decent database becomes really interesting (in a fun > way, not in a grind your teeth way) I wonder how easy it would be to do sort of a Mailman-lite that would sit on top of PSQL or MySQL, although what you're talking about works nicely without a database until the message gets archived. With EOF it would just sort of happen. Huh. Okay...how to pull out the various Mailman functions and expose them so that some functions could be redirected to databases for big lists? What if incoming messages were appended to single files that each represented sort of a FIFO, with the filename/descriptor represented in a queue instance description somewhere, something like the class in my previous mail? Okay, then the various actions in the class could be filenames of executables that would perform the various functions of that object. THAT way, you could easily change a particular function by changing the script filename, and the script could be in any language, and could either be a call to a database or something else. Since everything's been abstracted and there are only a few list-types, you could easily keep an editable plaintext file that contained all your pseudo-class information. Now you've got an extremely flexible but very small group of scripts that fit together in an application but can be easily maintained and replaced as needed, which is what someone was talking about as a goal a few days back. I'm not sure I explained that very well, but basically the idea is to take the abstracted queue object structure I talked about before and just implement each "class description" as a plaintext file that carries the names of the executables that perform the various tasks. There are only a few queues anyway (other than the lists themselves) so it doesn't get messy in terms of the kinds of queues. So maybe a list instance (directory) now looks like this: Files in the Test List directory: incomingMessages.queue outgoingMessages.queue requests.queue config.db description various html files That description file is just a plain text file that lists the executables that perform various functions for the list instance, inherited from the parent class "template", and if you want to do something different with that list (like have partial owners, for instance) you can just "override" the names of the executables in the instance description. What do you think of that rant? Nothing like regular ol' textfiles for exposing the innards of a...er...program. Dave Klingler From barry@digicool.com Wed Jan 3 06:19:01 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:19:01 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Debian packaging information References: <14930.8722.241879.731205@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: <14930.50261.563403.435000@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "MT" == Mark Tearle writes: MT> Does it need to be? Probably not, the Debian packaging system MT> copes with upstream versions of programs. MT> Does it help? Yes, one canonical source for the packaging MT> information and is more likely to track the latest version. A MT> example would be a lot of the GNOME programs that have the MT> packaging files in their CVS trees. MT> The reason I asked is that I was wanting to install the latest MT> CVS version of mailman on my system when I was hacking on it MT> the other day and have my machine end up suffering a bad case MT> of /usr/local-itis. I've got no objections to including the appropriate packaging information, say in the misc/ directory. I won't maintain it, but if it's contributed and properly FSF assigned, I'll include it in the source distro (same for RPM or any other useful package manager config files). -Barry From barry@digicool.com Wed Jan 3 06:29:30 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:29:30 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator References: <3A510836.8418A284@thompsonic.com> <28419.978416306@kanga.nu> <3A51C4D1.DD1118F@thompsonic.com> Message-ID: <14930.50890.651974.983266@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "JT" == Jeffrey Thompson writes: JT> Cool concept there. I like that idea. And, also you could JT> further define a queue as containing sub-queues. In the case JT> of a "half-moderator" he would be monitoring part of a queue, JT> and would in effect moderate a sub-queue. So the larger queue JT> would contain all of the people subscribed, plus additional JT> sub-queues that are moderated seperately. This falls nicely in line with some of my holiday hacking on v3 ideas. I've got the concept of Rosters, which are just lists of users (which themselves contain email addresses) and can be attached to mailing lists either as delivery rosters (e.g. for membership), or owner/admin rosters, or moderator rosters. [Which leads me to re-iterate that I definitely think the admin role and the moderator role should be separated] I can see where a roster object might have predicates attached to it, or be associated with nodes in the state machine, so it could decide what to do with the message, e.g. send it on to it's members for approval, hold the message, etc. -Barry From barry@digicool.com Wed Jan 3 06:35:11 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:35:11 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator References: <3A51C4D1.DD1118F@thompsonic.com> <200101021650.JAA20997@mail.commercedata.com> Message-ID: <14930.51231.910361.341672@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "DK" == Dave Klingler writes: DK> I also tend to think in terms of Objective C, so my DK> pseudorambling mushes everything together. That's okay, I'm a closet, or perhaps I should say "reformed" NextStepper. I was using Objective-C way back in '86 or so. Anybody else remember Vici? :) -Barry From davek@mail.commercedata.com Wed Jan 3 05:44:30 2001 From: davek@mail.commercedata.com (Dave Klingler) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:44:30 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator In-Reply-To: <200101030502.WAA22303@mail.commercedata.com> from "Dave Klingler" at Jan 02, 2001 10:02:04 PM Message-ID: <200101030544.WAA22999@mail.commercedata.com> Arrrrrgggh. I wrote > Files in the Test List directory: > incomingMessages.queue > outgoingMessages.queue > requests.queue > config.db > description > various html files That's not supposed to be "outgoingMessages". That's supposed to be "archivedMessages.queue" or some darned silly thing. I go on these binges when my blood sugar gets low and I'm supposed to be doing something else, and then I'm like Coleridge and Xanadu; I can't remember what it was exactly that I was inspired to write. Oh well. Hope it made sense to somebody. [daveKlingler GoEat:grahamCrackers And:Milk FeedDogsPortionAsPercentage:50]; [daveKlingler sleep]; From claw@kanga.nu Wed Jan 3 05:51:04 2001 From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 21:51:04 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Debian packaging information In-Reply-To: Message from Mark Tearle of "Wed, 03 Jan 2001 12:07:01 +0800." References: Message-ID: <9550.978501064@kanga.nu> On Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:07:01 +0800 (WST) Mark Tearle wrote: > Does it help? Yes, one canonical source for the packaging > information and is more likely to track the latest version. A > example would be a lot of the GNOME programs that have the > packaging files in their CVS trees. I question this -- I've seen too many instances where a product advances more quickly than its packing files (which are not maintained by the authors/contributors) resulting in problems/misunderstandings. This is an especially small gain given the fact that given a CVS tree which is reasonably consistent with the cannonical packaged version, it it simple to port the package patch forward locally (I've done this many times). -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From claw@kanga.nu Wed Jan 3 05:53:54 2001 From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 21:53:54 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator In-Reply-To: Message from Dave Klingler of "Tue, 02 Jan 2001 22:02:04 MST." <200101030502.WAA22303@mail.commercedata.com> References: <200101030502.WAA22303@mail.commercedata.com> Message-ID: <9737.978501234@kanga.nu> On Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:02:04 -0700 (MST) Dave Klingler wrote: > Huh. Okay...how to pull out the various Mailman functions and > expose them so that some functions could be redirected to > databases for big lists? Have you read the previous traffic on V3? The system that Chuq and I have been disucssing to date supports this inherently. Much of the content in that thread is similar to what you wrote below and goes considerably further. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From davek@mail.commercedata.com Wed Jan 3 06:22:55 2001 From: davek@mail.commercedata.com (Dave Klingler) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 23:22:55 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] New Feature Request: A Half-Moderator In-Reply-To: <9737.978501234@kanga.nu> from "J C Lawrence" at Jan 02, 2001 09:53:54 PM Message-ID: <200101030622.XAA23891@mail.commercedata.com> > On Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:02:04 -0700 (MST) > Dave Klingler wrote: > > > Huh. Okay...how to pull out the various Mailman functions and > > expose them so that some functions could be redirected to > > databases for big lists? > > Have you read the previous traffic on V3? The system that Chuq and > I have been disucssing to date supports this inherently. Much of > the content in that thread is similar to what you wrote below and > goes considerably further. It may be that when I read it I hadn't gotten very far into the Mailman package. I'll go back and read it again. I do remember that discussion, which is why I mentioned it, but I don't remember your solutions. Dave Klingler From gerald@impressive.net Wed Jan 3 07:26:46 2001 From: gerald@impressive.net (Gerald Oskoboiny) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 02:26:46 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailing List Subscription Request (fwd) In-Reply-To: <14928.60075.85334.647411@anthem.concentric.net>; from barry@digicool.com on Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:38:03PM -0500 References: <21800.978378296@kanga.nu> <14928.60075.85334.647411@anthem.concentric.net> Message-ID: <20010103022646.A31881@impressive.net> On Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 03:38:03PM -0500, Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > > >>>>> "JCL" == J C Lawrence writes: > > JCL> V3 really needs to support something like the following: > [ provide URLs for easy subscription confirmations ] > > I completely agree, and, if some of the things I've been playing with > over the holidays pan out, it'll be easy to add this. Great... definitely a nice feature. If you do add this, please make sure the actual confirmation step is done with an HTTP POST, not a GET, since using GET for this violates the HTTP protocol (GETting a URL must not have side effects like confirming an application, only POSTing should.) So the page displayed at the URL sent by email can display a trivial HTML form that says something like: Confirmation for subscription to list-foo [ Confirm ] where [ Confirm ] causes the form to be POSTed and the subscription to be confirmed. (Sorry if this advice seems premature, but I've seen various similar software get this wrong.) Further reading on GET vs POST for those who are interested: Forms: GET and POST http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/Input Axioms of Web architecture: Identity, State and GET http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Axioms#state HTTP 1.1 section 9.1: Safe and Idempotent Methods http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec9.html#sec9.1 HTML 4.01 section 17.13: Form submission http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#h-17.13 -- Gerald Oskoboiny http://impressive.net/people/gerald/ From dgc@uchicago.edu Wed Jan 3 09:23:34 2001 From: dgc@uchicago.edu (David Champion) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 03:23:34 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Quoting problem in 2.0 Message-ID: <20010103032334.Y4909@smack.uchicago.edu> There's a problem triggered when list admins enter addresses with double quotes: "foo@bar.biz" instead of foo@bar.biz These addresses are added - the quotes aren't stripped off - but they cannot be removed via the web interface, because then the quotes ARE stripped off. This is true for my 2.0 release installation. In my 1.0 rc2 installation, there's a further complication: it appears from the HTML output that mailman tried to subscribe all addresses in the current chunk. The quoted addresses can be removed via remove_members. I'll see about a patch for 2.0, but since Barry's talking about 2.0.1 I wanted to mention the problem quickly in case the solution is easy enough to throw in the pot. Seems that it would be. -- -D. dgc@uchicago.edu NSIT University of Chicago From dgc@uchicago.edu Wed Jan 3 09:26:56 2001 From: dgc@uchicago.edu (David Champion) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 03:26:56 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Quoting problem in 2.0 In-Reply-To: <20010103032334.Y4909@smack.uchicago.edu>; from dgc@uchicago.edu on Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 03:23:34AM -0600 References: <20010103032334.Y4909@smack.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <20010103032656.Z4909@smack.uchicago.edu> On 2001.01.03, in <20010103032334.Y4909@smack.uchicago.edu>, "David Champion" wrote: > There's a problem triggered when list admins enter addresses with > double quotes: > "foo@bar.biz" > instead of > foo@bar.biz > > These addresses are added - the quotes aren't stripped off - but they > cannot be removed via the web interface, because then the quotes ARE > stripped off. This is true for my 2.0 release installation. > > In my 1.0 rc2 installation, there's a further complication: it appears > from the HTML output that mailman tried to subscribe all addresses in s/subscribe/un& > the current chunk. > > The quoted addresses can be removed via remove_members. > > I'll see about a patch for 2.0, but since Barry's talking about 2.0.1 > I wanted to mention the problem quickly in case the solution is easy > enough to throw in the pot. Seems that it would be. > > -- > -D. dgc@uchicago.edu NSIT University of Chicago > > _______________________________________________ > Mailman-Developers mailing list > Mailman-Developers@python.org > http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers -- -D. dgc@uchicago.edu NSIT University of Chicago From barry@digicool.com Wed Jan 3 16:04:10 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:04:10 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Quoting problem in 2.0 References: <20010103032334.Y4909@smack.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <14931.19834.107810.489186@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "DC" == David Champion writes: DC> There's a problem triggered when list admins enter addresses DC> with double quotes: "foo@bar.biz" instead of foo@bar.biz DC> These addresses are added - the quotes aren't stripped off - DC> but they cannot be removed via the web interface, because then DC> the quotes ARE stripped off. This is true for my 2.0 release DC> installation. DC> In my 1.0 rc2 installation, there's a further complication: it DC> appears from the HTML output that mailman tried to subscribe DC> all addresses in the current chunk. DC> The quoted addresses can be removed via remove_members. DC> I'll see about a patch for 2.0, but since Barry's talking DC> about 2.0.1 I wanted to mention the problem quickly in case DC> the solution is easy enough to throw in the pot. Seems that DC> it would be. You're right it is a simple fix, see below. -Barry Index: admin.py =================================================================== RCS file: /cvsroot/mailman/mailman/Mailman/Cgi/admin.py,v retrieving revision 1.82 diff -u -r1.82 admin.py --- admin.py 2000/09/29 00:05:04 1.82 +++ admin.py 2001/01/03 16:02:26 @@ -22,6 +22,7 @@ import cgi import string import types +import rfc822 from Mailman import Utils from Mailman import MailList @@ -835,10 +836,13 @@ # # mass subscription processing for members category # + def clean_names(name): + return rfc822.unquote(string.strip(name)) + if cgi_info.has_key('subscribees'): name_text = cgi_info['subscribees'].value name_text = string.replace(name_text, '\r', '') - names = filter(None, map(string.strip, string.split(name_text, '\n'))) + names = filter(None, map(clean_names, string.split(name_text, '\n'))) send_welcome_msg = string.atoi( cgi_info["send_welcome_msg_to_this_batch"].value) digest = 0 From schorsch@schorsch.com Wed Jan 3 18:05:42 2001 From: schorsch@schorsch.com (Georg Mischler) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:05:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Quoting problem in 2.0 In-Reply-To: <14931.19834.107810.489186@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > > You're right it is a simple fix, see below. > While you're at it... The following is also a simple fix, which eliminates at least some of the "inexplicable" failures to create HTML archives: --- Mailbox.py Wed Jan 3 18:43:59 2001 +++ Mailbox.py Mon Dec 18 18:59:33 2000 @@ -27,7 +27,7 @@ class Mailbox(mailbox.UnixMailbox): # a better regexp than the Python 1.5.2 default _fromlinepattern = r'From \s*\S+\s+\w\w\w\s+\w\w\w\s+\d\d?\s+' \ - r'\d\d?:\d\d(:\d\d)?(\s+\S+)?\s+\d\d\d\d\s*$' + r'\d\d?:\d\d(:\d\d)?(\s+\S+)?\s+[+-]?\d\d\d\d\s*$' _regexp = re.compile(_fromlinepattern) def _isrealfromline(self, line): The rationale for this change is posted here: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2000-December/003518.html I discovered the web based CVS-access in the mean time, so I was now able to create a real patch against the most recent version. Have fun! -schorsch -- Georg Mischler -- simulations developer -- schorsch at schorsch.com +schorsch.com+ -- lighting design tools -- http://www.schorsch.com/ From barry@digicool.com Wed Jan 3 22:27:54 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:27:54 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Quoting problem in 2.0 References: <14931.19834.107810.489186@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: <14931.42858.361000.540012@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "GM" == Georg Mischler writes: GM> Barry A. Warsaw wrote: >> You're right it is a simple fix, see below. GM> While you're at it... The following is also a simple fix, GM> which eliminates at least some of the "inexplicable" failures GM> to create HTML archives: This doesn't seem right. From the referenced archive message, the change is supposed to add a hit for negative timezones, but that's /not/ what those last three \d's are trying to match. They're trying to match a four-digit year. It makes no sense to add an optional sign to the year matching field. If we wanted to be really correct about this, _isrealfromline() always return true because the pre-test already does the Right Thing in matching exactly line.startswith('From ') -- see [1]. I'd make that change, but it worries me because some earlier versions of Mailman did not properly >-mangle embedded From_ lines, so it /could/ break existing archives even worse. I'm not comfortable with this as a patch for 2.0.1. -Barry [1] http://home.netscape.com/eng/mozilla/2.0/relnotes/demo/content-length.html From schorsch@schorsch.com Wed Jan 3 23:12:04 2001 From: schorsch@schorsch.com (Georg Mischler) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:12:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Quoting problem in 2.0 In-Reply-To: <14931.42858.361000.540012@anthem.wooz.org> Message-ID: Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > > >>>>> "GM" == Georg Mischler writes: > > GM> Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > > >> You're right it is a simple fix, see below. > > GM> While you're at it... The following is also a simple fix, > GM> which eliminates at least some of the "inexplicable" failures > GM> to create HTML archives: > > This doesn't seem right. From the referenced archive message, the > change is supposed to add a hit for negative timezones, but that's > /not/ what those last three \d's are trying to match. They're trying > to match a four-digit year. It makes no sense to add an optional sign > to the year matching field. As happens once in a while, I'm slightly confused now. My own experiments demonstrated to me that this change removes the problem, or at least that's what I think they demonstrated. The following is a typical "From " line as I often encounter them: From schorsch@schorsch.com Thu Jun 10 13:09:41 1999 -0400 From my understanding, this matches to the pattern like follows (whitespace inserted for clarity): 'From \s* \S+ \s+ \w\w\w \s+ \w\w\w \s+ \d\d? \s+ 'From schorsch@schorsch.com Thu Jun 10 \d\d?:\d\d(:\d\d)? (\s+ \S+)? \s+ [+-]? \d\d\d\d \s *$' 13 :09 :41 1999 - 0400 ' I must admit that I'm not completely sure why the \S (non whitespace) matching the year is grouped together with the preceding whitespace (hmmm... the year is probably optional?). But in any case, unless I'm missing something crucial, the above interpretation confirms my experiments exactly to the point. In my experience, the above real-life "From " header is matched by the modified pattern, but not by the original one. Thinking about it, it seems that the last 4*\d group matches *either* the year, *or* the time zone, depending on the existence of one of them. But even if this is the case, it shouldn't be a problem (except for potentially matching a negative year...) If it is actually the timezone that is optional, then the grouping might rather be needed there instead of with the year. Or is the pattern meant to match a line where the timezone comes before the year? We'd need to allow for both possibilities then. My suggestion to use the very robust parsedate_tz() function from rfc822.py instead starts to make more and more sense to me. Or am I hallucinating beyond repair here? -schorsch -- Georg Mischler -- simulations developer -- schorsch at schorsch.com +schorsch.com+ -- lighting design tools -- http://www.schorsch.com/ From marc_news@valinux.com Fri Jan 5 14:28:43 2001 From: marc_news@valinux.com (Marc MERLIN) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 06:28:43 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Mailman vs openwall patch In-Reply-To: <20010105145506.A2266@kami.vein.hu>; from dynax@kami.vein.hu on Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 02:55:06PM +0100 References: <20010105145506.A2266@kami.vein.hu> Message-ID: <20010105062843.A13291@marc.merlins.org> On Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 02:55:06PM +0100, Jozsa Kristof wrote: > Hello Marc, > > I'm running debian potato on one of my servers with the openwall patch. I've > tried to deploy Gergely Madarasz's official 2.0final-1 debian package (which > was originally for the latest debian: sid) and run it, but met with the > known openwall problem. > > I've grabbed the (hopefully) latest version of your patch from sourceforge, > but met immediately with some problems. Seems that I dont have either the > module named 'paths' either the Mailman python module which is needed for > the patch to run. Where can I get these? Is it possible to patch my binary The problem is that I wrote the securelinux_fix.py script to run from ~mailman/bin. As agreed with Barry, he put my script in a contrib directory to show that this was unsupported, but in the process that broke it because it won't run as is unless you copy it back in your ~mailman/bin/ tree and run it from there. Barry, would you have a suggestion about this? (or anyone else?) (Worst case, it can be documented by putting a README.securelinux_fix.py in the same directory. By the same token, it'd be awesome if README.LINUX could also document the securelinux_fix alternative) > mailman install from the deb package if I get these python modules > separately? I'd really like to avoid compiling mailman from a tarball *if* > it's possible. My script only patches python scripts in ~mailman/bin, it's a simple text edit, so no binaries involved or recompiles. Best, Marc -- Microsoft is to operating systems & security .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key From barry@digicool.com Fri Jan 5 15:53:35 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:53:35 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Mailman vs openwall patch References: <20010105145506.A2266@kami.vein.hu> <20010105062843.A13291@marc.merlins.org> Message-ID: <14933.60927.90492.658429@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "MM" == Marc MERLIN writes: MM> Barry, would you have a suggestion about this? (or anyone MM> else?) (Worst case, it can be documented by putting a MM> README.securelinux_fix.py in the same directory. By the same MM> token, it'd be awesome if README.LINUX could also document the MM> securelinux_fix alternative) Send me some text for README.LINUX and I'll be very happy to add it to that file! It should probably replace or extend the paragraph that already talks about secure_linux. -Barry From barry@digicool.com Fri Jan 5 17:31:41 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:31:41 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [ANNOUNCE] Mailman 2.0.1 Message-ID: <14934.1277.810270.449651@anthem.wooz.org> Hi folks, I've finally gotten the 2.0.1 release uploaded to SourceForge. This is a bug fix release only, see below for details. It's being distributed as a gzip'd tarball like usual, and also as a patchfile against the 2.0 source tree. If you grab the patchfile, you'll want to cd into your 2.0 source, and apply it like so: % patch -p1 < mailman-2.0-2.0.1.diff Note that you'll likely need GNU patch for this to work properly. Currently only http://mailman.sourceforge.net is updated, but the list.org and gnu.org sites should be updated soon. The release information on SF is at http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=19948 Enjoy, -Barry [From the NEWS file] 2.0.1 (03-Jan-2001) Bug fix release, namely fixes a buglet in bin/withlist affecting the -l and -r flags; also a problem that can cause qrunner to stop processing mail after disk-full events (SourceForge bug 127199). From scott-brown@home.com Sun Jan 7 02:50:06 2001 From: scott-brown@home.com (Scott Brown) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 21:50:06 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting wrapped up in wrapper Message-ID: <000f01c07854$8b87e960$0401a8c0@ibmpeers> Does wrapper only work for python modules or can I call other (ie, perl) modules from it? I've tried to pass thru wrapper into a perl script, but I've been getting (among other things) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Illegal command: /home/webmaster/readmsg.pl 554 "|/home/mailman/mail/wrapper /home/webmaster/readmsg.pl"... unknown mailer error 6 I've tried changing the pipe to "|perl /home/webmaster/readmsg.pl" - but perl cant read the script because it's got root:root permissions (I need them if I'm going to be updating /etc/aliases) I've also tried going straight to the "|/home/webmaster/readmsg.pl" - but I get a permissions error that I cant figure out since the script is set to set uid when executed (and as I mentioned, it is a root:root) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- sh: /home/webmaster/readmsg.pl: Permission denied 554 "|/home/webmaster/readmsg.pl"... unknown mailer error 126 Any help/experience/pointers to FAQs on passing off msgs from sendmail to perl scripts would be appreciated. (BTW: sendmail is an old 8.5 version... perl is 5.004 - and no, I cant upgrade either right now...) Thanks Scott. From barry@digicool.com Sun Jan 7 15:49:07 2001 From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:49:07 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Getting wrapped up in wrapper References: <000f01c07854$8b87e960$0401a8c0@ibmpeers> Message-ID: <14936.36851.680934.641911@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "SB" == Scott Brown writes: SB> Does wrapper only work for python modules or can I call other SB> (ie, perl) modules from it? Mailman's C wrapper is pretty much geared toward safely executing Python scripts without requiring those scripts themselves to be setuid or setgid. -Barry From gnu@gnu.org Sun Jan 14 00:50:05 2001 From: gnu@gnu.org (Free Software Foundation) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 19:50:05 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Fwd - Frm: Silvia@csdanet.org, Subj: URGENT HELP] Message-ID: <20010113195005.W21084@ebb.org> --ore3etO02sBxzSAO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We still get these sorts of messages, because people assume that the GNU link at the bottom of all Mailman lists is support. Do newer versions of mailman now say something like: Mailman is GNU software; you can find more about the GNU project in general at http://www.gnu.org. Note that GNU doesn't provide support, but you might find help in G= NU Service Directory. ----- Forwarded message from Silvia Ortiz ----- To: "'gnu@gnu.org'" From: Silvia Ortiz Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:54:24 -0500 Subject: URGENT HELP I am the administrator of all the cdmonline.org's mailing lists:=20 LAnegotiators@cdmonline.org GRILA@cdmonline.org negotiators@cdmonline.org CDMgroup@cdmonline.org However something happened that any of the passwords that I am using to manage these lists are working. Can you provide me with the current passwords? ASAP please I've been writing to this address mailman-owner@www.cdmonline.org but it has fatal errors and the mails get returned. Please help me Silvia Ortiz Business Development Director CSDA / CEDSA 1700 Connecticut Avenue, NW Suite 403 Washington, D.C. 20009 Tel. (202) 588-0155 Fax (202) 588-0756 silvia@csdanet.org, silvia@cdmonline.org www.csdanet.org www.cdmonline.org Protecting the environment makes business sense. TM ----- End forwarded message ----- --=20 Bradley M. Kuhn Free Software Foundation | Phone: +1-617-542-5942 59 Temple Place, Suite 330 | Fax: +1-617-542-2652 Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA | Web: http://www.gnu.org --ore3etO02sBxzSAO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6YPe953XjJNtBs4cRAinGAJ45UXK0i7f+YXhzyexxFpxx947XjwCbBYle nNNEiyNcE7XS7COU3GYTlyk= =it5d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ore3etO02sBxzSAO-- From bappell@eclectechs.com Wed Jan 17 16:50:21 2001 From: bappell@eclectechs.com (Brian) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:50:21 -0500 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] posting Message-ID: <012a01c080a5$946e7540$20f6abd0@valinet.com> Hi, I was wondering if you know of a way to change the e-mail address for posting messages. Thanks, Brian From marc_news@valinux.com Thu Jan 18 20:12:51 2001 From: marc_news@valinux.com (Marc MERLIN) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 07:12:51 +1100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] cookie feature request In-Reply-To: <20010114123741.C5599@tc.niof.net>; from rick@niof.net on Sun, Jan 14, 2001 at 12:37:41PM -0500 References: <20010114123741.C5599@tc.niof.net> Message-ID: <20010119071251.G1651@gandalf.linux.conf.au> On Sun, Jan 14, 2001 at 12:37:41PM -0500, Rick Pasotto wrote: > I've been bitten again. > > I normally run junkbuster so cookies are turned off. Can mailman check > for this situation and alert that cookies are not functioning instead of > just asking again for the name/password with no indication of why? Actually, better: I'm not a cookie expert, but I think that some cookies are saved on disk and other cookies (session cookies?) are kept in memory and lost when the browser is closed. Junkbuster does let session cookies through apparently. Would it be possible for mailman to issue a session cookie if the regular cookie didn't go through? Marc -- Microsoft is to operating systems & security .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key From marc_news@valinux.com Fri Jan 19 01:11:07 2001 From: marc_news@valinux.com (Marc MERLIN) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:11:07 +1100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Can HTML archiving be done asynchronously? Message-ID: <20010119121107.J888@gandalf.linux.conf.au> No luck on mailman-users, maybe someone here can help? ----- Forwarded message from Marc MERLIN ----- I've recently disabled HTML archiving on sourceforge's mailman because after some tests I found that on big lists, it looked like qrunner has to wait while the list archive is updated after each post. It's not a huge deal until you have lists with many posts, and at that time, updating the HTML pages takes a long time. Mailman is still doing the text archiving though, which is fast. Every night, mailman runs ~mailman/cron/nightly_gzip Is there a way to tell pipermail to update its web archives asynchronously, from cron too? Thanks Marc -- Microsoft is to operating systems & security .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key From Nigel.Metheringham@InTechnology.co.uk Fri Jan 19 09:31:14 2001 From: Nigel.Metheringham@InTechnology.co.uk (Nigel Metheringham) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:31:14 +0000 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] cookie feature request In-Reply-To: Message from Marc MERLIN of "Fri, 19 Jan 2001 07:12:51 +1100." <20010119071251.G1651@gandalf.linux.conf.au> Message-ID: marc_news@valinux.com said: > Junkbuster does let session cookies through apparently. Not to my knowlege. It certainly doesn't by default and I have never seen a config to do that. > Would it be > possible for mailman to issue a session cookie if the regular cookie > didn't go through? The mailman cookie is phrased so that it should never be saved to disk - ie it is a session cookie rather than a permanent. Nigel. -- [ Nigel Metheringham Nigel.Metheringham@InTechnology.co.uk ] [ Phone: +44 1423 850000 Fax +44 1423 858866 ] [ - Comments in this message are my own and not ITO opinion/policy - ] From edelrio@icm.csic.es Fri Jan 19 10:32:10 2001 From: edelrio@icm.csic.es (Evilio del Rio) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:32:10 +0100 (CET) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] So all you people that wanted autoreject...(It was: Re: Reject non-member postings.) In-Reply-To: <3A6767A7.96C262CC@west.sun.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Dan Mick wrote: > ... (cut from previous replies) >Evilio del Rio wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> Is there any way to configure a list to ALWAYS reject ANY non-member >> posting to a restricted list. I do not want them to be held for approval, >> just reject, full stop. > >Adding header patterns to SpamDetect.py is one way, although not trivial. >Adding "check for list membership" wouldn't be that hard, but it would >take some actual Python coding. I could see if I could hack something >like that up if there were sufficient interest. > >Proposal: a modification to SpamDetect.py to auto-reject, with no >reply message, mail from non-subscribers (on lists with "subscriber posting >only" set). Anyone besides Evilio dying for this? > ... >OK, well, this seems to work. I hacked up SpamDetect.py into a new >module, grabbed code from Hold.py to get the sender and look for the >member_posting_only option, and do a similar rejection trick to >SpamDetect >for throwing the message away. It also logs a message to >~mailman/logs/discard every time it rejects a non-subscriber post, so you >can see that it's working. >... > > ....give me some feedback on my solution. > Hi Mick, Thank you for your interest and your solution. I didn't test it yet because two reasons (correct me if I am wrong): a) It puts the rejection mode for all the site and not on a list-by-list basis. b) It conflicts with another patch to mailman (Hold.py) that we have here that converts the 'posters' setting into a regular expression (this was done to allow a members-posters-only meta-list). I think that the right way is: a) To create a setting for the lists called 'non_members_post_action' (or similar) with three possible values ('Hold for approval', 'Reject' and 'Discard'). b) To incorporate this action in the present message path (maybe this should be the caller of Hold.py) I would like to work on this but I would appreciare any help because I am not an expert in python. And maybe it's time to change this discussion to the developers list (so I post to it also). Tia, ________________________________________________________________ Evilio Jose del Rio Silvan Institut de Ciencies del Mar edelrio@icm.csic.es http://members.es.tripod.de/Evilio/ "Something touched me deep inside the day the music died" - D. McLean From esper@sherohman.org Fri Jan 19 16:58:52 2001 From: esper@sherohman.org (Dave Sherohman) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:58:52 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] cookie feature request In-Reply-To: <20010119071251.G1651@gandalf.linux.conf.au>; from marc_news@valinux.com on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 07:12:51AM +1100 References: <20010114123741.C5599@tc.niof.net> <20010119071251.G1651@gandalf.linux.conf.au> Message-ID: <20010119105852.E13530@sherohman.org> On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 07:12:51AM +1100, Marc MERLIN wrote: > Junkbuster does let session cookies through apparently. I use Junkbuster and have seen no evidence of this. It allows cookies to be set by sites I tell it are allowed to set them and no others. Period. > Would it be possible for mailman to issue a session cookie if the regular > cookie didn't go through? Based on the observed behaviour of Mailman, it appears to me that it uses session cookies only. (If I shut down Netscape and restart it, I have to log back in to Mailman. That's how session cookies act.) -- SGI products are used to create the 'Bugs' that entertain us in theatres and at home. - SGI job posting Geek Code 3.1: GCS d? s+: a- C++ UL++$ P++>+++ L+++>++++ E- W--(++) N+ o+ !K w---$ O M- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t 5++ X+ R++ tv b+ DI++++ D G e* h+ r y+ From Dan.Mick@west.sun.com Fri Jan 19 22:02:33 2001 From: Dan.Mick@west.sun.com (Dan Mick) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:02:33 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] So all you people that wanted autoreject...(Itwas: Re: Reject non-member postings.) References: Message-ID: <3A68B979.413C0806@west.sun.com> > I didn't test it yet because two reasons (correct me if I am wrong): > > a) It puts the rejection mode for all the site and not on a > list-by-list basis. True, although of course it's only lists with "member_posting_only" set. > b) It conflicts with another patch to mailman (Hold.py) that we > have here that converts the 'posters' setting into a regular expression > (this was done to allow a members-posters-only meta-list). Ah. I looked for a functional interface to determine "list member", but didn't find one; I guess the combination of patches would call for that. The danger of customizing software; didn't know you weren't running standard Mailman, of course. > > I think that the right way is: > > a) To create a setting for the lists called 'non_members_post_action' (or > similar) with three possible values ('Hold for approval', 'Reject' and > 'Discard'). > > b) To incorporate this action in the present message path (maybe this > should be the caller of Hold.py) Well, sure, but obviously this is a lot more work. Ah well. > I would like to work on this but I would appreciare any help because I am > not an expert in python. And maybe it's time to change this discussion to > the developers list (so I post to it also). From marc_news@valinux.com Sat Jan 20 01:33:02 2001 From: marc_news@valinux.com (Marc MERLIN) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 12:33:02 +1100 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] cookie feature request In-Reply-To: ; from Nigel.Metheringham@InTechnology.co.uk on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:31:14AM +0000 References: Message-ID: <20010120123302.C888@gandalf.linux.conf.au> On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:31:14AM +0000, Nigel Metheringham wrote: > > marc_news@valinux.com said: > > Junkbuster does let session cookies through apparently. > > Not to my knowlege. It certainly doesn't by default and I have never > seen a config to do that. Mmmh, then I have to figure out why junkbuster does let some cookies through when the from site definitely isn't in my allowed list of cookie sites (I had assume that junkbuster might allow cookies that aren't saved to disk) > > Would it be > > possible for mailman to issue a session cookie if the regular cookie > > didn't go through? > > The mailman cookie is phrased so that it should never be saved to disk > - ie it is a session cookie rather than a permanent. Ok, so I have another problem then, never mind about what I said :-) Marc -- Microsoft is to operating systems & security .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key From kozubal@uiuc.edu Tue Jan 23 22:17:27 2001 From: kozubal@uiuc.edu (Dan Kozubal) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:17:27 -0600 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailing list Message-ID: <000801c0858a$453ed2a0$34d97e82@computer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C08557.FA474E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable my address is catorres@uiuc.edu and i want to get out of a mailing list = i am in so please get me out-thank you ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C08557.FA474E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

my address is catorres@uiuc.edu and i want to = get out of a=20 mailing list i am in so please get me out-thank = you

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