From blalor@hcirisc.cs.binghamton.edu Thu Feb 1 17:01:17 2001 From: blalor@hcirisc.cs.binghamton.edu (Brian Lalor) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:01:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] encrypting list reminders Message-ID: I'm not subscribed to the list; please CC me on any replies. The topic of plaintext passwords sent out each month as part of the reminder process came up on the GnuPG mailing list today. The below conversation extolls the virtues of this method and how it balances the user experience and ease of administration with the insecurity of the method. I'd like to suggest that encryption of the password reminders be implemented. It would be as "simple" as grafting in GnuPG with mailman and keeping the user's public key and associated key id stored along with their email address. This would allow mailman to encrypt these administriva and have the best of all worlds. Additionally, messages could be signed automatically; this could be *all* messages sent from the list, or just administrative messages. The more I think about it, the better this idea is! :-) B _____________________________________________________________________________ B r i a n L a l o r blalor@hcirisc.cs.binghamton.edu http://hcirisc.cs.binghamton.edu/~blalor Spam me not. To get my pgp key, put "get pgp key" in the subject of your message My Dad used to say I have deceptive quickness. I'm slower than I look. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:44:28 -0600 (CST) From: Frank Tobin To: Dan Harkless Cc: gnupg-users@gnupg.org Subject: Re: gnupg.org mailing list memberships reminder Dan Harkless, at 18:58 -0800 on Wed, 31 Jan 2001, wrote: Gotta love a mailing list devoted to email security that sends your password to you in cleartext once a month whether you like it or not. I assume there's still no way to turn this off in mailman? (I last asked a few years ago.) First of all, the mailing list is not devoted to email security. Anyone who thinks OpenPGP is limited to email needs to re-think what it's good for. When it comes to public mailing lists, the most important thing is to have the least frustration for the end users and easiest management for the administration. While it does have the offset of lowering security, I feel that in the end it provides for a much better experience of the majority of end-users and administration to have monthly reminders. There are multiple levels of security, and your email-subscriptions to public mailing lists should really rank way down at the bottom of the list. -- Frank Tobin http://www.uiuc.edu/~ftobin/ _______________________________________________ Gnupg-users mailing list Gnupg-users@gnupg.org http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users From marc_news@valinux.com Thu Feb 1 20:05:33 2001 From: marc_news@valinux.com (Marc MERLIN) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:05:33 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Little bug in Mailman/Default.py Message-ID: <20010201120533.A24356@marc.merlins.org> The comments say: # 0 means do nothing # 1 means disable and send admin a report, # 2 means nuke'em (remove) and send admin a report, # 3 means nuke 'em and don't report (whee:) DEFAULT_AUTOMATIC_BOUNCE_ACTION = 2 The problem is that the comments are incorrect, 2 is actually disable and don't notify me I'm changing this to 3 (which really is nuke'm and send admin a report), but now I have the following problem: Due to a mail problem, the archiver Email address for sourceforge bounced for a little while. While we thought it caused the address to be unsubscribed from some lists, we simply mass-resubscribed the address to all the lists. Turns out that the address was simply disabled, so we didn't fix anything and it's still disabled and many lists have been losing archives for about a month now :-( I am looking at unsubscribing the archiver Email from all the lists and then resubscribing it, but is there some script that would allow me to easily switch subscriber's flags from the command line (test and set would be ideal although dumpdb already kind of allows me to test) Thanks Marc -- Microsoft is to operating systems & security .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key From mentor@alb-net.com Thu Feb 1 21:22:52 2001 From: mentor@alb-net.com (Mentor Cana) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:22:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] minor archive problem after upgrade.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think it is true that the "reply_goes_to_list" decides(indirectly) if the sender's e-mail is displayed in the archives or the list e-mail addresses [as described below]. Actually, my experiment showed that if the Reply-To: field is present in the messages it is used to set the addresses in the archives. Given that "reply_goes_to_list" will set Reply-To: to list's address, that is the address to show up in the archives. Question: Is this as per design? My understanding is that the "reply_goes_to_list" should not be the deciding maker on whether sender's e-mail address shows in the archives or not. There are other setting to decide about this. Any comments?! thanks, Mentor On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, at 08:42, D.J. Atkinson wrote: > I'd guess it's related to the setting of "reply_goes_to_list" [General > Options page of the list admin interface, described as "Where are replies > to list messages directed?"] If this is set so that replies default to the > sender, the archive shows the sender's email address. If the default > reply goes to the list, the archive shows the list address. It seemed > pretty consistent across the lists I checked. > > On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Phydeaux wrote: > > >On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, at 04:42, Michael Dunston wrote: > > > I recently upgraded both Mailman (2.0b5 -> 2.0) and Python (1.42 -> 2.0) > > > and just noticed that the HTML archives are being created differently. > > > > > > In the old system, the individual HTML archived messages listed the > > > poster's name and email address at the top of the page. For all messages > > > after the upgrade, this is now being created as the poster's name with > > > the list address (instead of the user's email). > > > > > > it was: Tom Smith tsmith@domain.com > > > now is: Tom Smith list@listaddress.com > > > > > > Is this normal? Can anyone offer any insight into this? Thanks in > > > advance for any enlightenment. > > > >IMHO this is NOT just an upgrade problem... > > > >I have the same problem on one of my lists, and I am using Python 2.0 > >and initially installed Mailman 2.0 and then upgraded to 2.01. Only one > >of my numerous lists suffers from this problem. I tried wiping out the > >archives and each time they get recreated with the same problem. > > > >I just tried creating a new, test, list and it seems to function fine (I > >used the default options). Does anyone have any idea what is wrong here? > > > >reb > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------ > >Mailman-Users maillist - Mailman-Users@python.org > >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > > > > -- > o o o o o o o . . . _______ > o _____ _____ ____________________ ____] D D [_||___ > ._][__n__n___|DD[ [ \_____ | D.J. Atkinson | | dj@pcisys.net | > >(____________|__|_[___________]_|__________________|_|_______________| > _/oo OOOO OOOO oo` 'ooooo ooooo` 'o!o o!o` 'o!o o!o` > -+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+- > Visit my web page at http://www.pcisys.net/~dj > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Mailman-Users maillist - Mailman-Users@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > From claw@kanga.nu Fri Feb 2 04:43:14 2001 From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 20:43:14 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] encrypting list reminders In-Reply-To: Message from Brian Lalor of "Thu, 01 Feb 2001 12:01:17 EST." References: Message-ID: <13810.981088994@kanga.nu> On Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:01:17 -0500 (EST) Brian Lalor wrote: > Additionally, messages could be signed automatically; this could > be *all* messages sent from the list, or just administrative > messages. > The more I think about it, the better this idea is! :-) Great! When will your patch be ready> -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From jeb@ocha.net Fri Feb 2 22:20:43 2001 From: jeb@ocha.net (Jeb Bateman) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:20:43 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug: X-BeenThere on admin messages In-Reply-To: <20010202170125.71497F068@mail.python.org>; from mailman-developers-request@python.org on Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 12:01:25PM -0500 References: <20010202170125.71497F068@mail.python.org> Message-ID: <20010202142043.D26901@rye> [I don't remember seeing this on the current to-do or bug lists the last time I checked; but if it is already there please disregard...] The problem is that if someone mistakenly sends a message to the -admin address when it was supposed to be the list, I would like to just bounce (resend) their message to the list address. However, when I did this today, the message was *silently discarded* by Mailman (not held for approval, or logged anywhere). I found out this is because all List headers are also included in -admin; specifically the following... X-BeenThere: friends@buyorganic.org I edited the message before resending again, removing all the list headers, and it went through fine. Isn't that X-BeenThere header false, since it's only been to -admin? And does it make sense to included all the List headers in -admin messages anyway? Thanks, -jeb From john.read@newnet-marketing.de Sat Feb 3 16:19:43 2001 From: john.read@newnet-marketing.de (John Read) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 17:19:43 +0100 Subject: WG: [Mailman-Developers] Bug: X-BeenThere on admin messages Message-ID: hello, I am surprised about this request. I have always seen the function of the -admin address for mails entering mailman as THE specific interface to the administrator. If they are bounced to the normal address, you have removed this administrator interface, and subscribers cannot reach him any more. >>>The problem is that if someone mistakenly sends a message to the >>>-admin address when it was supposed to be the list, I would like to >>>just bounce (resend) their message to the list address. However, when >>>I did this today, the message was *silently discarded* by Mailman (not >>>held for approval, or logged anywhere). regards john read -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: mailman-developers-admin@python.org [mailto:mailman-developers-admin@python.org]Im Auftrag von Jeb Bateman Gesendet: Freitag, 2. Februar 2001 23:21 An: mailman-developers@python.org Betreff: [Mailman-Developers] Bug: X-BeenThere on admin messages [I don't remember seeing this on the current to-do or bug lists the last time I checked; but if it is already there please disregard...] The problem is that if someone mistakenly sends a message to the -admin address when it was supposed to be the list, I would like to just bounce (resend) their message to the list address. However, when I did this today, the message was *silently discarded* by Mailman (not held for approval, or logged anywhere). I found out this is because all List headers are also included in -admin; specifically the following... X-BeenThere: friends@buyorganic.org I edited the message before resending again, removing all the list headers, and it went through fine. Isn't that X-BeenThere header false, since it's only been to -admin? And does it make sense to included all the List headers in -admin messages anyway? Thanks, -jeb _______________________________________________ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers From jrsamples@earthlink.net Mon Feb 5 15:26:02 2001 From: jrsamples@earthlink.net (jrsamples@earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 07:26:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] BE A MILLIONAIRE IN LESS THAN A YEAR! Message-ID: <200102051526.HAA23572@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Jerome Kedrowski 3710 W. St Germain #239 St. Cloud, MN 56301 Email jrsamples@earthlink.net February 3, 2001 This really is worth your valuable time, so... PLEASE PRINT THIS NOW FOR READING AT YOUR LEASURE, YOU WILL NOT REGREAT IT. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dear Friend, You can earn $50,000 or more in next the 90 days sending E-mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details. Is there a catch? NO!!! There is no catch. Just send your emails; and, You will be on your way to financial freedom. AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TELEVISION: Thank you for your time and Interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news Lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below to see, if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless, and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results of this show have been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing, much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of lately. You will understand once you experience it. "HERE IT IS BELOW." ================================================ *** Print This Now (IF YOU HAVE NOT already done it) for Future Reference *** The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days! Please read the enclosed Program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEYMAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This Multi-level e-mail order-marketing program work perfectly, 100% of EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW! The longer you wait, the more savvy people will be taking your business using e-mail. Get what is rightfully yours. Program yourself for success and dare to think BIG. MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the U.S., 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics have show that 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. You may have heard this story before, but over the summer, Donald Trump made an appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and dead-panned his response "That's why I'm sitting up here; and, you are all sitting out there!" With network marketing, you have two sources of income. Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made by people you introduce to the business. Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. It means investing time or money once and getting paid again and again and again. In network marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others. The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re- read everything and gave some thought and study to it. My name is Jonathan Rourke. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER FINANCIALLY!!! In mid December of 1997, I received this program via e-mail. Six months prior to receiving this program, I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they would work or not. One claimed that I would make a million dollars in one year... it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it! But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT !!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further into debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. But like most of you I was still a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800- 725-2161 24-hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the program was LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT." Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my time on-line. The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any money for printing to send out the program, and because all of my orders are fulfilled via e-mail, the only expense is my time. I am telling you like it is. I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me. In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. Your goal is to "RECEIVE at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" My first step in making $50,000 in 90 days was done. By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal is to "RECEIVE AT LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By March 1, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much-needed new car. Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!!! Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. It won't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money! In order for this program to work, you must meet your goal of 20+ orders for REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!! If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! Sincerely, Jonathan Rourke PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME! ------------------------------------------------------ A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: By the time you have read the enclosed program, you may have concluded that an amateur could not have created such a legal program that works. Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for 10 years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rates...because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. I should also point out that I would not see a penny of this money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over 4 MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices that do this program and several other programs here and over seas. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of them! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! ****************************************************** THINK ABOUT IT: Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA ****************************************************** HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ INSTRUCTIONS: This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use up to $50,000 or more in the next 90 days. Before you say, "BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store, or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere: This is what you MUST do: 1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). * For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! * When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four reports. You will need all four reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. * Within a few days, you will receive, via e-mail, each of the four reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of available reports. b. After you've ordered the four reports, take this Advertisement and remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their $50,000! c. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. f. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! Copy and paste method works well. 3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the Instruction portion of this letter. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20). You obviously already have an Internet Connection and e-mail is FREE! To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the 4 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much, much more. There are two primary methods of building your downline: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. Using a good list, the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 0.5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 people mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That amounts to 10,000 each of $5 bills for you in CASH MONEY!!! Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000+ $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF-SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an Internet connection and e- mail is FREE !!! REPORT #2 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing, tell you where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists. METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the Internet will EASILY get a larger response). Also, assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results Below (same as email example): 1st level-your 10 members with $5.........$50 2nd level-10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100).......$500 3rd level-10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000) $5,000 4th level-10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10k) $50,000 THIS TOTALS ---------------------------$55,550 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruits 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! ------------------------------------------ AVAILABLE REPORTS ------------------------------------------ *** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** Notes: - ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHEQUES NOT ACCEPTED - ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL - Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper (IF NOT MORE SO THAT THE BILL CAN'T BE SEEN AGAINST LIGHT) - On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your name & postal address (as return address in case the post office encounters problems). PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ______________________________________________________ REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet." ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: JEROME KEDROWSKI 3710 W. ST GERMAIN APT. 239 ST. CLOUD, MN 56301 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet." RAF CALUS 4295 MARTIN DRIVE BOULDER, CO 80305 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet." ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: JEANNE QUINN 1119 PORTSMOUTH AVE GREENLAND, NH 03840 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet." ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: DONNA MARSH 10520 CAMINITO RIMINI SAN DIEGO, CA 92129 ______________________________________________________ About 50,000 new people get online every month! ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. * Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: * When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICES ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question..... DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE (except for bulk mailing cost)! 4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $20 AND BULK MAILING COST INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! 7. THIS PROGRAM WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER. ******* T E S T I M O N I A L S ******* This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. Steven Bardfield, Portland, OR ****************************************************** My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program, I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me! Within two weeks, she had received over 50 responses. Within 45 days, she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked! I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Jody in her "hobby." I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to MLM. Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL ****************************************************** The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in. Charles Morris, Esq. *************************************************** Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders! For awhile, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return. Paige Willis, Des Moines, IA ************************************************** I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program. Eleven months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!!! I made more than $41,000 on the first try!! Violet Wilson, Johnstown, PA **************************************************** This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money. The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity. Good luck and happy spending! Kerry Ford, Centerport, NY *************************************************** ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS POWERFUL RESULTS ______________________________________________________ FOR YOUR INFORMATION: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1- (800)827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. IT IS TOTALLY UP TO YOU HOW!!! CAN YOU HANDLE SUCCESS AND ALL THAT MONEY??? ___________________________________________________________ Under Bills.1618 Title III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered spam as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. This is a one time e-mail transmission. No request for removal is necessary Sincerely, Jerome Kedrowski From jamest@math.ksu.edu Mon Feb 5 21:55:12 2001 From: jamest@math.ksu.edu (James Thompson) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:55:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Approval system Message-ID: Hello, I'm trying to hack e-mail based message approval into mailman (like majordomo's system) I've managed to alter the system to include copies of the mail to be approved with the notice to the list admin. I've also discovered that the Approved: header does work. However I'm seeing the following issues..... Majordomo must be manipulating the headers of a message a bit. The mail clients elm and pine both add a space between the mails headers and the first line of the message body. (as required) However majordomo seems to deal with this and still accept the Approved: password if it is the first line of the message body followed by a blank line. Also - IIRC when a message is approved majordomo seems to substitute the original headers from the initial pre-approved message. So the admin isn't retyping that initial information over again. I'm willing and (hopefully :) able to work on email based approvals for mailman but really don't care to waste my time if others have a better solution in the works or have no interest in it. Or if it's already being developed by others I could lend a hand as I'm dying to get rid of majordomo ASAP. Thanks, James ->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->---<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-< James Thompson 138 Cardwell Hall Manhattan, Ks 66506 785-532-0561 Kansas State University Department of Mathematics ->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->---<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-< From trey@anvils.org Tue Feb 6 17:17:56 2001 From: trey@anvils.org (Trey Valenta) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:17:56 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Feature request: daily rate limitting Message-ID: <20010206171756.16321.qmail@zipcon.net> Greetings: Appologies if this has already been discussed, but some of us think the ability to have a daily message throttle limit would be nice in mailman. The idea would be that any messages over the limit would be shoved into a digest for all subscribers who aren't already subscribed in digest mode. Thanks, trey -- trey valenta trey@anvils.org seattle (maybe a) random quote--v To err is human, to moo bovine. From jeb@freequotes.com Tue Feb 6 18:39:57 2001 From: jeb@freequotes.com (Jeb Bateman) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 10:39:57 -0800 Subject: WG: [Mailman-Developers] Bug: X-BeenThere on admin messages In-Reply-To: ; from john.read@newnet-marketing.de on Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 05:19:43PM +0100 References: Message-ID: <20010206103957.A30007@rye> On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 05:19:43PM +0100, John Read wrote: > I am surprised about this request. I have always seen the function > of the -admin address for mails entering mailman as THE specific > interface to the administrator. If they are bounced to the normal > address, you have removed this administrator interface, and > subscribers cannot reach him any more. Of course... I didn't mean the bouncing of -admin would be automatic. (I just got a message to -admin which should have been sent to the list, and resent it manually; that's all.) The bug is basically that Mailman silently discards this email because of the incorrect X-BeenThere header in -admin messages... > >>>The problem is that if someone mistakenly sends a message to the > >>>-admin address when it was supposed to be the list, I would like to > >>>just bounce (resend) their message to the list address. However, when > >>>I did this today, the message was *silently discarded* by Mailman (not > >>>held for approval, or logged anywhere). -jeb PS: Sorry for the delay replying. I was out of town for a few days. From hssuh@csns.snu.ac.kr Wed Feb 7 00:55:53 2001 From: hssuh@csns.snu.ac.kr (Hwansoo Suh) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:55:53 +0900 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Possible bug in the archives. Message-ID: <20010207095553.A16146@csns.snu.ac.kr> I'm running mailman on a Red-hat 6.2 based system. And I have a problem with the archives of the mailman. If the number of articles in the archive is odd, subjects of messages are displayed fine. But if the # of messages in the archive is even, MIME-encoded subjects are displayes just as the mime-code. Well, I guess if you're using single-byte character codes, it'll be all OK. But for some people who uses double-byte character codes and using MIME encoding on the subject line, the subjects are all junks of HEX code like =?EUC-KR?Q?=B9=DD=B5=B5=C3....blahblah.. I guess there's a problem with the Pipermail 0.05 Does anyone know a solution to work out this problem? Thanks in advance. From jeb@ocha.net Wed Feb 7 01:49:31 2001 From: jeb@ocha.net (Jeb Bateman) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:49:31 -0800 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Approval system In-Reply-To: ; from jamest@math.ksu.edu on Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 03:55:12PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20010206174931.E30138@rye> On Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 03:55:12PM -0600, James Thompson wrote: > I'm trying to hack e-mail based message approval into mailman (like > majordomo's system) I've managed to alter the system to include copies of > the mail to be approved with the notice to the list admin. I've also > discovered that the Approved: header does work. I was browsing the -users archives today, and found it mentioned somewhere that Approve.py (or something) already appears to check for an Approved: header, but it didn't work in testing. I haven't checked myself, but that might be the quickest way to work this out... > Majordomo must be manipulating the headers of a message a bit. Yeah, majordomo's approved line can be in the body, which may be easy, but error prone toward revealing a password to the list, (IIRC). A much more elegant solution would be for Mailman to simply include a confirmation number (like subscribe confirmations) in the subject of messages to be approved, and then the admin could simply reply to approve them (since they're already kept in the ~/data directory anyway -- Mailman doesn't need a clean copy). > I'm willing and (hopefully :) able to work on email based approvals for > mailman but really don't care to waste my time if others have a better > solution in the works or have no interest in it. It's not a big enough problem for me to work on at the moment myself, but good luck... Eventually, I would like to see a general verfy wrapper in Mailman like Listar has, which would make user passwords optional, (since I don't think people want more passwords), and allows admins to edit moderated postings, etc. Also, by the way, does anyone know why Mailman uses TEXTAREA fields to display postings in the approval interface? You can't edit them, so why not just wrap them in 
 tags to read/approve?  (In fact, the
textarea fields create a false impression that they *are* editable...)

-jeb



From Dan Mick   Wed Feb  7 01:50:45 2001
From: Dan Mick  (Dan Mick)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:50:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Approval system
Message-ID: <200102070148.RAA07906@utopia.west.sun.com>

> Also, by the way, does anyone know why Mailman uses TEXTAREA fields to
> display postings in the approval interface?  You can't edit them, so
> why not just wrap them in 
 tags to read/approve?  (In fact, the
> textarea fields create a false impression that they *are* editable...)

textareas give you scrolling, which is useful when the message you're
rejecting has, for example, a 1MB MIME-encoded attachment.  



From jeb@ocha.net  Wed Feb  7 03:08:37 2001
From: jeb@ocha.net (Jeb Bateman)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:08:37 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Approval system
In-Reply-To: <200102070148.RAA07906@utopia.west.sun.com>; from dmick@utopia.west.sun.com on Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 05:50:45PM -0800
References: <200102070148.RAA07906@utopia.west.sun.com>
Message-ID: <20010206190837.A30241@rye>

On Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 05:50:45PM -0800, Dan Mick wrote:

> textareas give you scrolling, which is useful when the message you're
> rejecting has, for example, a 1MB MIME-encoded attachment.  

Except that Mailman already cuts the content down to a pretty short
max size in the texarea anyway, so this would never be an issue...

Also, reading separate scrolling windows is cumbersome compared to
scrolling the main browser window, and takes *more* screen space for
very short messages, not to mention the difficulty in Lynx :( 
Most efficient could be a very concise:


Date:
From:
Subject: These already above?
< Link to full message text >

Configurable
first few 
lines...



Regards,
-jeb


From Dan Mick   Wed Feb  7 03:20:49 2001
From: Dan Mick  (Dan Mick)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:20:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Approval system
Message-ID: <200102070318.TAA13959@utopia.west.sun.com>

> > textareas give you scrolling, which is useful when the message you're
> > rejecting has, for example, a 1MB MIME-encoded attachment.  
> 
> Except that Mailman already cuts the content down to a pretty short
> max size in the texarea anyway, so this would never be an issue...

Not my Mailman.  (That's configurable.)
 
> Also, reading separate scrolling windows is cumbersome compared to
> scrolling the main browser window, and takes *more* screen space for
> very short messages, not to mention the difficulty in Lynx :( 
> Most efficient could be a very concise:
> 
> 
> Date:
> From:
> Subject: These already above?
> < Link to full message text >
> 
> Configurable
> first few 
> lines...
> 


but seeing the exact full headers is very useful to figuring out
the real disposition of the message, at least to me.  *all* headers,
plus *all* message text, is a useful thing (to me).  Yeah, if you
just wanted a few lines, the current display uses more space...but
that quickly turns to a false economy, IMO.



From claw@kanga.nu  Wed Feb  7 06:49:52 2001
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 22:49:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Approval system
In-Reply-To: Message from Jeb Bateman 
 of "Tue, 06 Feb 2001 19:08:37 PST." <20010206190837.A30241@rye>
References: <200102070148.RAA07906@utopia.west.sun.com>  <20010206190837.A30241@rye>
Message-ID: <11331.981528592@kanga.nu>

On Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:08:37 -0800 
Jeb Bateman  wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 05:50:45PM -0800, Dan Mick wrote:
>> textareas give you scrolling, which is useful when the message
>> you're rejecting has, for example, a 1MB MIME-encoded attachment.

> Except that Mailman already cuts the content down to a pretty
> short max size in the texarea anyway, so this would never be an
> issue...

The extent that Mailman excerpts the messages it displays is
configurable in mm_cfg.py (I set the limit to 1Gig so that messages
are generally not truncated).  The use of TEXTAREAs allows even a
larger number of messages to be presented for moderator review
withing a visually smaller and more easily navigable web page.

> Also, reading separate scrolling windows is cumbersome compared to
> scrolling the main browser window, and takes *more* screen space
> for very short messages, not to mention the difficulty in Lynx :(
> Most efficient could be a very concise:

I don't disagree -- I also prefer the previous approach, but
understand the more common-case reasons in support of the current
approach.   Frankly, I currently SSH into my list boxes and
run XEmacs across all the held messages before hitting them with the
web moderation interface.  It sucks, badly, but it works (I do a lot
of editing of member posts on a couple of my lists).

I've been idly hacking on a patch which would make edits to a
message in the text area (given that the entire message was
displayed there) be effected on the final message that is cast (ie
moderators get editing rights).  Progress is slow tho as I've not
been able to spend much time on it (an hour every other week leads
to most of that hour being spent figuring out where you got to last
time).

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From George F. Nemeyer" 

Please, please, please, please include a list posting filter configuration
option to have Mailman (politely)  reject mail posted in HTML.  Bounce the
message with a note to post only in plain text, possibly with a blurb on
how to do it with common mailers/browsers. 

You will gain the undying gratitude of countless frustrated mail list
managers, admins, and readers alike; and you will be saving equally
countless number of excess posts by irate readers pleading
with/admonishing clueless users and the threads thus generated.

This could likely be the single most useful feature Mailman could have:
o  Save bandwidth.
o  Save nerves.
o  Save storage space.
o  Keep out nasty scripts.
o  Promote member harmony.

If by some miracle this is already there someplace, you may slap me silly
and point me to where it is.  Running 2.0beta6 currently.

George Nemeyer
Tigerden Internet Services





From Nigel.Metheringham@InTechnology.co.uk  Mon Feb 12 10:55:24 2001
From: Nigel.Metheringham@InTechnology.co.uk (Nigel Metheringham)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:55:24 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Simplified moderation interface
Message-ID: 

I was away at a conference at the end of last week, not carrying a 
computer or similar, but I did have a Palm and an IRDA capable phone.

This combination is capable of moderating Mailman lists, as long as the 
total number of messages for moderation is at most 3.... after that it 
is unable to handle the size of form data that results (also the 
interface falls apart somewhat because the radio buttons and labels 
become dissociated).

I'm wondering about the possibilities of making am optional slightly 
simpler interface - more like the older Mailman 1 version - where there 
aren't the large text boxes that get submitted back.

Just a thought - this happens pretty rarely for me, and is certainly no 
major issue.

	Nigel.
-- 
[ Nigel Metheringham           Nigel.Metheringham@InTechnology.co.uk ]
[ Phone: +44 1423 850000                         Fax +44 1423 858866 ]
[ - Comments in this message are my own and not ITO opinion/policy - ]




From barry@digicool.com  Mon Feb 12 14:45:16 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:45:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Simplified moderation interface
References: 
Message-ID: <14983.63228.754566.451@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "NM" == Nigel Metheringham
>>>>>  writes:

    NM> I'm wondering about the possibilities of making am optional
    NM> slightly simpler interface - more like the older Mailman 1
    NM> version - where there aren't the large text boxes that get
    NM> submitted back.

I really want to augment the approval workflow with email.  There's a
lot of people for whom moderating through the web is a pain (myself
included :).  I don't think it would be too difficult to come up with
a workable email moderation scheme.

-Barry


From Cenjsh@mstore.cen.hw.ac.uk  Tue Feb 13 08:42:35 2001
From: Cenjsh@mstore.cen.hw.ac.uk (Cenjsh@mstore.cen.hw.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:42:35 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Archives Error
Message-ID: <3A88F37A.BF4AD4FD@mstore.cen.hw.ac.uk>

We tried to run Archive (under Mailman V2.0Beta5) running on Red Hat
Linux V7.0 with the following error message. I'd appreciate it very much
if any of you could shed some light on it. Many thanks. Error message is
as follows:

Bug in Mailman version 2.0beta5

We're sorry, we hit a bug!

If you would like to help us identify the problem, please email a copy
of this page to the webmaster for this site with a
description of what happened. Thanks!

Traceback:

Traceback (innermost last):
  File "/home/mailman/scripts/driver", line 91, in run_main
    module = getattr(pkg, scriptname)
AttributeError: archives





Python information:

     Variable
                                           Value
 sys.version
                 1.5.2 (#1, Aug 25 2000, 09:33:37) [GCC 2.96 20000731
(experimental)]
 sys.executable
                 /usr/bin/python
 sys.prefix
                 /usr
 sys.exec_prefix
                 /usr
 sys.path
                 /usr
 sys.platform
                 linux-i386




Environment variables:

       Variable

Value
 DOCUMENT_ROOT
                      /home/mailman/
 SERVER_ADDR
                      137.195.148.74
 HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING
                      gzip
 SERVER_PORT
                      80
 PATH_TRANSLATED
                      /home/mailman/public/test/
 REMOTE_ADDR
                      137.195.148.47
 SERVER_SOFTWARE
                      Apache/1.3.12 (Unix) (Red Hat/Linux) mod_ssl/2.6.6
OpenSSL/0.9.5a mod_perl/1.24
 GATEWAY_INTERFACE
                      CGI/1.1
 HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE
                      en
 REMOTE_PORT
                      1969
 SERVER_NAME
                      rm13pc3.cen.hw.ac.uk
 HTTP_CONNECTION
                      Keep-Alive
 HTTP_USER_AGENT
                      Mozilla/4.75 [en] (WinNT; U)
 HTTP_ACCEPT_CHARSET
                      iso-8859-1,*,utf-8
 HTTP_ACCEPT
                      image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg,
image/pjpeg, image/png, */*
 REQUEST_URI
                      /mailman/archives/public/test/
 PATH
                      /sbin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin
 QUERY_STRING
 SERVER_PROTOCOL
                      HTTP/1.0
 PATH_INFO
                      /public/test/
 HTTP_HOST
                      rm13pc3.cen.hw.ac.uk
 REQUEST_METHOD
                      GET
 SERVER_SIGNATURE
                      Apache/1.3.12 Server at rm13pc3.cen.hw.ac.uk Port
80
 SCRIPT_NAME
                      /mailman/archives
 SERVER_ADMIN
                      root@localhost
 SCRIPT_FILENAME
                      /home/mailman/cgi-bin/archives
 PYTHONPATH
                      /home/mailman
 HTTP_COOKIE

test:admin=280200000069c2f1883a732800000063373035363634663833333264623636356537656336626332663361366632303965363261633537

---
Jongky Harlim
Computing Services, Heriot-Watt University,
Riccarton, Edinburgh EH14 4AS
Phone: +44 (0)131-451-3268   Fax: +44 (0)131-451-3261
Email: J.S.Harlim@hw.ac.uk



From claw@kanga.nu  Tue Feb 13 17:50:37 2001
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:50:37 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Simplified moderation interface
In-Reply-To: Message from barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
 of "Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:45:16 EST." <14983.63228.754566.451@anthem.wooz.org>
References:   <14983.63228.754566.451@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <7394.982086637@kanga.nu>

On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:45:16 -0500 
Barry A Warsaw  wrote:

> I really want to augment the approval workflow with email.
> There's a lot of people for whom moderating through the web is a
> pain (myself included :).  I don't think it would be too difficult
> to come up with a workable email moderation scheme.



I've been looking at this, and have loosely come to the following
design:

  -- MessageIDs are used to uniquely identify held mesasges, and are
     used in commands to manipulat manipulate the held queue.  Of
     course that means that Mailman will have locally generate and
     add messageID's to any messages received without them (not a
     big problem).

  -- Moderator commands are just messages sent to the -request
     address and targetted at the MessageIDs, something like (using
     the messageID of the message I'm replying to as an
     example):

       approve 14983.63228.754566.451@anthem.wooz.org password bubba
       reject  14983.63228.754566.451@anthem.wooz.org password bubba
       All text found until next recognised command or "QUIT"
       command is used as reason for rejection.  QUIT processing is
       necessary for those cases where the MTA adds a signature to
       evern message (eg my lawyer's system adds a disclaimer to
       every outbound message).
       discard 14983.63228.754566.451@anthem.wooz.org password bubba

  -- A couple simple extentions of the above allow more useful
     features.  First, to get a copy of a message held on the queue:

       send 14983.63228.754566.451@anthem.wooz.org password bubba

     Second, to post an edited copy of a message, just resend the
     edited version of the held message back to the list
     (bounce/redirect) with an Approve:  header:

       Approve: bubba
       Delivery-date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:38:04 -0800
       Received: from localhost [127.0.0.1] 
       	by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian))
       	id 14SjOu-0004BQ-00; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:38:04 -0800
       Delivered-To: claw@kanga.nu
       Received: from kanga.nu [64.1.167.214]
       	by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.5.3)
       	for claw@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:38:04 -0800 (PST)
       Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212])
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       	for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:37:30 -0800 (PST)
       Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] 
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       To: some_list@domain
       Subject: testing
       Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:37:30 -0800
       Message-ID: <15013.982085850@kanga.nu>
       From: J C Lawrence 

       This is the edited message which will be posted.  Any message
       found in the queue which has the same messageID as this
       message will be silently deleted.  Prior to broadcasting this
       message, Mailman will replace the Approve: header with the
       following header:

         X-Moderated: This message has been edited by the list moderator.

       This sentence marks the end of the replacement edited
       message that would be broadcast to the list.
     
-- 
J C Lawrence                                       claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From barry@digicool.com  Thu Feb 15 02:57:12 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:57:12 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
Message-ID: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>

Folks,

As you've probably guessed, I've been quite busy with other things[*]
lately.  But I /have/ been working on Mailman in my spare time.  I'm
now ready to check in some significant changes.  They seem to work
although they've only gone through limited testing, and I have not
even converted my own sites to using this snapshot.  Mostly I want to
checkpoint my CVS and give others a chance to play with the new stuff
and give feedback.

These are mostly architectural changes to the mail delivery subsystem,
along many of the lines that were discussed last year.  My next step
is to finish integrating the I18N stuff.  I'll probably work toward a
release after that and leave rewriting the web subsystem until the
following release.  I'm shooting for a working alpha 2.1 before the
Python conference early next month.

First, all messages internally are now mimelib.Message objects instead
of rfc822.Message objects.  In case you don't know, I've been working
on the side on a spanking new, from scratch Python package to better
handle RFC1341 (MIME) and RFC822 style messages.  I'm pretty happy
with it, and just released version 0.2.  If you plan to run the newest
snapshot of Mailman, you will need to download and install
mimelib-0.2.  For more information see

    http://barry.wooz.org/software/pyware.html

Installation is very easy due to Greg Ward's wonderful distutils
package.  Don't worry though, Mailman 2.1 will come bundled with
mimelib.

As an aside, take a look at ToDigest.py to see how much cleaner
creating MIME and RFC1153 digests is now!  Oh yeah, did I mention our
plain text digests are now RFC1153 compliant? :)

The second major change is the splitting of the qfiles queue into
several sub-queues.  Right now I've got incoming, outgoing, news,
archiver, and `virgin' queues (the latter being for messages conceived
internally by Mailman).  Here's how messages flow in the system:

(mailman) ------> qfiles/virgin -------+
                                       |
                                       v
smtpd ----------+--> qfiles/in -+-> qfiles/out -> smtp
                |               |
cron/gate_news -+               +-> qfiles/news -> nntpd
                                |
				+-> qfiles/arch -> (archiver)

Each qfile directory has an associated qrunner (e.g. IncomingRunner,
OutgoingRunner, NewsRunner, ArchRunner, VirginRunner) which is managed
by a master watchdog (the transformed cron/qrunner).  This is the
third major change: qrunner is now a long running process.  If it
finds that one of its subrunners has exited, it will restart it.  Thus
each subrunner needs no lock, although the master does hold a lock.

Further, it is possible (although as yet not fully tested), to create
more than one qrunner per qfile subdirectory.  It is best to create
2^N such qrunners, since the hash space will be divided up among the
parallel runners.  This should be random enough to allow for improved
performance on clusters or multiproc machines without a lot of
complicated coordination machinery.

This arrangement has another benefit: you could replace any of the
qrunners with your own processes to clear the queues.  The only one
that probably /has/ to be the Mailman qrunner is qfiles/in since
that's what performs the "moderate and munge" phase of message
disposal, and it is the only queue which requires a list lock (well,
ArchRunner does currently, but that's an artifact of the
implementation).  E.g. I could see a completely independent runner for
qfiles/arch to interface with external archivers, or a better, more
highly parallelized runner for the qfiles/out queue.

Notes: the NewsRunner may not work.  I can't tell if my new ISP is
just refusing postings, requires some authorization I'm not aware of,
or if the runner is actually broken.  I'll fix that later.  Also,
there is no separate BounceRunner yet, although there will be.  I know
some of you have thought about other queues, and I don't think it
would be too difficult to squeeze those in.

Each message in the queue is represented by two files, a .msg file
which is simply the plain text of the message in RFC822+envelope
format, and a .db file, the format of which is configurable on a
per-site basis.  Three formats are currently supported, Python
marshals, `ascii' (plaintext key/value pairs), and "bsddb native",
which are hash files as written by the default Python bsddb module.
It isn't difficult to add additional file formats.

Hmm, other than that, there's a few more bounce detectors.  Also, I'm
ditching the crufty md5/crypt munging of passwords and opting for an
sha1 hash always.  However, to support backwards compatibility
(i.e. the list passwords are not kept in plain text), if the sha hash
of the response doesn't match the challenge, we try crypt as a
fallback.

Remember, Python 2.0 is required!

Enjoy,
-Barry

[*] Primarily the Python 2.1 alpha releases, spending a week on a
company retreat, getting ready for the Python conference in Long Beach
March 5-8, and working on "paying gig" stuff, primarily a Berkeley DB
storage implementation for the Zope Object Database.  Anybody else
coming to the Python conference?


From John Morton   Thu Feb 15 03:53:12 2001
From: John Morton  (John Morton)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:53:12 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <200102150353.QAA24100@vesta.plain.co.nz>

On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:57:12 -0500 Barry A. Warsaw  wro=
te:

> Hmm, other than that, there's a few more bounce detectors.  Also, I'm
> ditching the crufty md5/crypt munging of passwords and opting for an
> sha1 hash always.  However, to support backwards compatibility
> (i.e. the list passwords are not kept in plain text), if the sha hash
> of the response doesn't match the challenge, we try crypt as a
> fallback.

Might as well add code to convert the password from the depreciated form
to the current default if one of the fallback methods succeeds, then set
the fallbacks to cascade over crypt, MD5 and plaintext. This way, you can
quitely change to a more trusted hash should your current default
eventually be broken.

John.




From barry@digicool.com  Thu Feb 15 03:59:15 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:59:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <200102150353.QAA24100@vesta.plain.co.nz>
Message-ID: <14987.21523.917175.768718@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "JM" == John Morton  writes:

    JM> Might as well add code to convert the password from the
    JM> depreciated form to the current default if one of the fallback
    JM> methods succeeds, then set the fallbacks to cascade over
    JM> crypt, MD5 and plaintext. This way, you can quitely change to
    JM> a more trusted hash should your current default eventually be
    JM> broken.

No can do.  crypt()'s a one-way hash and Mailman doesn't store the
cleartext password (for the list), so there's no way to recover it in
order to convert.

I've thought about storing the list password in the clear.  This would
allow a mail-back option for list owners, but requires for stricter
security in the file system (since the list passwords can be snooped
from the database).

-Barry


From andrewm@connect.com.au  Thu Feb 15 04:12:49 2001
From: andrewm@connect.com.au (Andrew McNamara)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:12:49 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:59:15 CDT."
 <14987.21523.917175.768718@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <20010215041249.667D22870A@wawura.off.connect.com.au>

>    JM> Might as well add code to convert the password from the
>    JM> depreciated form to the current default if one of the fallback
>    JM> methods succeeds, then set the fallbacks to cascade over
>    JM> crypt, MD5 and plaintext. This way, you can quitely change to
>    JM> a more trusted hash should your current default eventually be
>    JM> broken.
>
>No can do.  crypt()'s a one-way hash and Mailman doesn't store the
>cleartext password (for the list), so there's no way to recover it in
>order to convert.

You could convert on the fly: when the user validates correctly, you
temporarily have the clear-text password, and could convert it from
crypt to md5 at this point.

 ---
Andrew McNamara (System Architect)

connect.com.au Pty Ltd
Lvl 3, 213 Miller St, North Sydney, NSW 2060, Australia
Phone: +61 2 9409 2117, Fax: +61 2 9409 2111


From barry@digicool.com  Thu Feb 15 04:28:13 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:28:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.21523.917175.768718@anthem.wooz.org>
 <20010215041249.667D22870A@wawura.off.connect.com.au>
Message-ID: <14987.23261.943503.23584@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "AM" == Andrew McNamara  writes:

    AM> You could convert on the fly: when the user validates
    AM> correctly, you temporarily have the clear-text password, and
    AM> could convert it from crypt to md5 at this point.

Good point!  Dang, why didn't I think of that? :)

-Barry


From John Morton   Thu Feb 15 04:44:59 2001
From: John Morton  (John Morton)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:44:59 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: Re[2]: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14987.21523.917175.768718@anthem.wooz.org>
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <200102150353.QAA24100@vesta.plain.co.nz>,
 <14987.21523.917175.768718@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <200102150444.RAA28736@vesta.plain.co.nz>

On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:59:15 -0500 Barry A. Warsaw  wro=
te:

>=20
> >>>>> "JM" =3D=3D John Morton  writes:
>=20
>     JM> Might as well add code to convert the password from the
>     JM> depreciated form to the current default if one of the fallback
>     JM> methods succeeds, then set the fallbacks to cascade over
>     JM> crypt, MD5 and plaintext. This way, you can quitely change to
>     JM> a more trusted hash should your current default eventually be
>     JM> broken.
>=20
> No can do.  crypt()'s a one-way hash and Mailman doesn't store the
> cleartext password (for the list), so there's no way to recover it in
> order to convert.

Indeed - that's why I was talking about doing it when one of the fallback
methods for authenicating the password succeeds. The list admin has just
supplied you with a password, and you know it's correct because you've
just successfully compared the crypted version (or whatever) with the one
stored. Might as well take the default hash of the password and store that
at the same time.

> I've thought about storing the list password in the clear.  This would
> allow a mail-back option for list owners, but requires for stricter
> security in the file system (since the list passwords can be snooped
> from the database).

Have the site administrator make the call by allowing them to set the
default password storage method themselves, and if it happens to be set
to plain text, have the mail-back option available. This might require
tagging the passwords with their method of encoding, but it should be
possible to convert existing passwords without too much trouble.

Of course, the documentation should recommend SHA-1 is (probably) better
than MD5, which is better than crypt, and that a plaintext password
installation should take special care to protect the mailman install from
snooping.

John




From John Morton   Thu Feb 15 04:50:09 2001
From: John Morton  (John Morton)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:50:09 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: Re[2]: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <20010215041249.667D22870A@wawura.off.connect.com.au>
References: <20010215041249.667D22870A@wawura.off.connect.com.au>
Message-ID: <200102150450.RAA29188@vesta.plain.co.nz>

On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:12:49 +1100 Andrew McNamara =
 wrote:

> >    JM> Might as well add code to convert the password from the
> >    JM> depreciated form to the current default if one of the fallback
> >    JM> methods succeeds, then set the fallbacks to cascade over
> >    JM> crypt, MD5 and plaintext. This way, you can quitely change to
> >    JM> a more trusted hash should your current default eventually be
> >    JM> broken.
> >
> >No can do.  crypt()'s a one-way hash and Mailman doesn't store the
> >cleartext password (for the list), so there's no way to recover it in
> >order to convert.
>=20
> You could convert on the fly: when the user validates correctly, you
> temporarily have the clear-text password, and could convert it from
> crypt to md5 at this point.

That's what I meant :-) Not my day for clarity, it seems.

John



From claw@kanga.nu  Thu Feb 15 05:49:06 2001
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:49:06 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: Message from barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
 of "Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:59:15 EST." <14987.21523.917175.768718@anthem.wooz.org>
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org> <200102150353.QAA24100@vesta.plain.co.nz>  <14987.21523.917175.768718@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <30691.982216146@kanga.nu>

On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:59:15 -0500 
Barry A Warsaw  wrote:

> I've thought about storing the list password in the clear.  This
> would allow a mail-back option for list owners, but requires for
> stricter security in the file system (since the list passwords can
> be snooped from the database).

Don't go there.  The way to handle this, for both asmin and user
passwords is that either an admin or a user may request a new
password, whereupon a confirm token is emailed to their address with
the confirm token embedded in an URL.  They can then visit the URL
thus having (marginally) demonstrated that they are who they say
they are, and set a *NEW* password.

Note: Do not disable the current password prior to the confirm URL
being visited or else the feature can be used as a DoS tool.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From jeb@ocha.net  Thu Feb 15 17:45:10 2001
From: jeb@ocha.net (Jeb Bateman)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:45:10 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org> <200102150353.QAA24100@vesta.plain.co.nz>  <14987.21523.917175.768718@anthem.wooz.org> <30691.982216146@kanga.nu>
Message-ID: <3A8C1594.EB04E634@ocha.net>

J C Lawrence wrote:
> 
> Don't go there.  The way to handle this, for both asmin and user
> passwords is that either an admin or a user may request a new
> password, whereupon a confirm token is emailed to their address with
> the confirm token embedded in an URL.  They can then visit the URL
> thus having (marginally) demonstrated that they are who they say
> they are, and set a *NEW* password.

Exactly.  I'm tired of user passwords being stored in plain text.  It
makes me nervous about security.  Here's an idea...  Mailman's random
passwords can be stored in plain text, no big deal.  However, when a
user specifies their *own* password, that is stored in crypt (or sha1,
if the string is reasonably short).  The authentication code simply
checks the crypted hash of the supplied password first, and then falls
back to a plain text check.  Thus, password reminders still work, since
they simply send the hash of a user's password, and explain that either
the hash or the original password will work...

Some users may even prefer to authenticate with the hash, since it
avoids sending their original password across the net.  (Anyway, I think
I'll work on this for my own sites, at least...)

Thanks,
-jeb

PS: I'm also working on fixing Patch #102426, which is unreliable even
with the necessary string.lower that john reed noted.  It should call a
function to get the list directory path, but is the mlist object
available from maketext(?)


From claw@kanga.nu  Thu Feb 15 17:52:55 2001
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:52:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: Message from Jeb Bateman 
 of "Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:45:10 PST." <3A8C1594.EB04E634@ocha.net>
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org> <200102150353.QAA24100@vesta.plain.co.nz> <14987.21523.917175.768718@anthem.wooz.org> <30691.982216146@kanga.nu>  <3A8C1594.EB04E634@ocha.net>
Message-ID: <27713.982259575@kanga.nu>

On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:45:10 -0800 
Jeb Bateman  wrote:


> Some users may even prefer to authenticate with the hash, since it
> avoids sending their original password across the net.  (Anyway, I
> think I'll work on this for my own sites, at least...)

There's a reason I run Mailman's web interface under SSL...

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From scott-brown@home.com  Thu Feb 15 23:59:17 2001
From: scott-brown@home.com (Scott Brown)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:59:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bounce questions
Message-ID: <005f01c097ab$4eeb0200$0401a8c0@ibmpeers>

Two questions:

1.	Whats the difference between a "first" and a "first fresh" in the bounce
log?

2.	And how do I clear the bounce stats for a list??




From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 00:39:55 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:39:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010215193828.07341ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

Yay.  Got python2.0 to compile finally by giving up db support altogether.

Now on to upgrading the test mailman box.

BTW, Barry, the INSTALL file needs to be updated to say that 2.0 is
required, it still calls for 1.5.2, with "Python 2.0 should be fine"...




From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 00:53:40 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:53:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010215195100.0739e5c0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

Ok, I might have missed some previous discussion, cause I've been buried in other 
projects, and only vaugely paying attention to mailman recently. (I've kept mailman-developers,
just haven't actually read each message recently.)  So I might have missed a comment on
something I need to do...

But should 2.1a1 at least mostly work "out of the box" by just checking out the sources,
and doing the usual config make install set?  Because the listinfo display isn't rendering
the %(hostname)s construct anymore, it shows up on the web page.  Plus, there seems to
be a whole buncha templates missing; the admin loging script wants the stuff in the templates/en
directory, which doesn't exist on my machine (and wasn't created by the installer)...

-Ron



From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 01:35:03 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:35:03 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010215201212.02d81ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

And in other news, here in early adopters hell :-)...

Ok, figuring, what the hell, it couldn't hurt, I copied all the .txt and .html files from templates
into a new templates/en directory.  This at least got me the forms back (although
listinfo still won't render %(hostname))

Unfortunately, now, it won't take my admin password anymore.  I tried resetting it,
just in case, with mmsitepass (which, btw, bitches about getpass failing, which I don't
remember happening before, but might have).  mmsitepass does re-write adm.pw, then
complains that the password change failed (and no, it doesn't work on the web form.)
I tried deleting adm.pw, and sure enough, it creates a new one, with a 41 character
hex string in it, then tells me that the password change failed.

Ah, I see why.  In CheckSiteAdminPassword we do a 

challenge = fp.read()[-1]

The comment says this strips off the newline.  Now, my python is week, but doesn't
that actually return *just* the newline.  So naturally the hexdigest of the original
password doesn't match the hexdigest of a \012...

So, shouldn't that be 
challenge = fp.read()[0:-1]

?




From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 01:47:26 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:47:26 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010215204144.02f75ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

More in the wonderful world of 2.1...

Ok, gate_news doesn't work for me right now because python is
invoked -S, so it can't find mimelib to import Parser from.  Should
I have dropped another copy of it in Mailman/pythonlib after installing
it?

BTW, my previous fix to Utils.py fixed the password problem.  The
system lets me into the admin page now.  However, GetConfigInfo goes
blammo...

Traceback:
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/home/mailman/scripts/driver", line 105, in run_main
    main()
  File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 144, in main
    FormatConfiguration(doc, mlist, category, category_suffix, cgidata)
  File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 298, in FormatConfiguration
    form.AddItem(FormatOptionsSection(category, mlist, cgi_data))
  File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 315, in FormatOptionsSection
    options = GetConfigOptions(mlist, category)
  File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 953, in GetConfigOptions
    return mlist.GetConfigInfo()[category]
  File "../Mailman/MailList.py", line 361, in GetConfigInfo
    config_info['general'] = [
ValueError: list.index(x): x not in list



From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 04:30:32 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:30:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215193828.07341ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.44264.751105.178523@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> Yay.  Got python2.0 to compile finally by giving up db support
    RJ> altogether.

Cool.

    RJ> Now on to upgrading the test mailman box.

    RJ> BTW, Barry, the INSTALL file needs to be updated to say that
    RJ> 2.0 is required, it still calls for 1.5.2, with "Python 2.0
    RJ> should be fine"...

Ah, I fixed it in the README but forgot the INSTALL file.  Thanks!



From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 04:34:21 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:34:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215195100.0739e5c0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.44493.174145.627848@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> But should 2.1a1 at least mostly work "out of the box" by just
    RJ> checking out the sources, and doing the usual config make
    RJ> install set?

Probably not.  At the very least you will need to download and install
mimelib:

    http://barry.wooz.org/software/Code/mimelib-0.2.tar.gz

When things get more stable, I'll definitely be bundling mimelib with
Mailman, and hope eventually to get it in the Python standard
library.

Other than that, you really need to consider the current CVS snapshot
an alpha.  The i18n patches are probably not complete, and other
modules may have bugs in them.
    
    RJ> Because the listinfo display isn't rendering the
    RJ> %(hostname)s construct anymore, it shows up on the web page.
    RJ> Plus, there seems to be a whole buncha templates missing; the
    RJ> admin loging script wants the stuff in the templates/en
    RJ> directory, which doesn't exist on my machine (and wasn't
    RJ> created by the installer)...

Yes, I need to fix the installation procedures for setting up the
multilingual support.  I haven't yet done any fresh installs to see
where things are broken.

I'm really glad you're taking a look though!

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 04:43:08 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:43:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215201212.02d81ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.45020.132847.794516@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> And in other news, here in early adopters hell :-)...

Mwah, ha, ha!

    RJ> Ok, figuring, what the hell, it couldn't hurt, I copied all
    RJ> the .txt and .html files from templates into a new
    RJ> templates/en directory.  This at least got me the forms back
    RJ> (although listinfo still won't render %(hostname))

Hmm, it works for me, although I haven't done a fresh install yet.

    RJ> Ah, I see why.  In CheckSiteAdminPassword we do a

    RJ> challenge = fp.read()[-1]

    RJ> The comment says this strips off the newline.  Now, my python
    RJ> is week, but doesn't that actually return *just* the newline.
    RJ> So naturally the hexdigest of the original password doesn't
    RJ> match the hexdigest of a \012...

    | So, shouldn't that be 
    | challenge = fp.read()[0:-1]

Darn, good catch.  That should be "fp.read()[:-1]" -- you don't need
the start index if it's 0.  I just checked in a patch.

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 04:45:41 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:45:41 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215201212.02d81ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.45173.531482.934269@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> I tried resetting it, just in case, with mmsitepass (which,
    RJ> btw, bitches about getpass failing, which I don't remember
    RJ> happening before, but might have).

I bet you didn't enable the termios module when you built Python 2.0.
Fortunately, Python 2.1 is going to be /much/ better about building a
batteries-included interpreter, so stuff like this should go away.
Still, I'm not going to require Python 2.1.  Just edit your
Modules/Setup file to enable termios and your getpass should work.

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 04:50:46 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:50:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215204144.02f75ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.45478.57009.227108@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> Ok, gate_news doesn't work for me right now because python is
    RJ> invoked -S, so it can't find mimelib to import Parser from.
    RJ> Should I have dropped another copy of it in Mailman/pythonlib
    RJ> after installing it?

No, look at the bottom of Defaults.py.  It's suppose to `hack your
path' by appending your Python's default site-packages directory onto
the end of sys.path.  This is normally something that "import site"
does automatically, but the -S flag disables doing the implicit import
of site (because it slows things down considerably and most of the
stuff in site you don't need).

Put this before the import of mimelib.Parser in gate_news:

print >> sys.stderr, sys.path

And look at the last directory on sys.path.  It should be a directory
that contains the mimelib directory.  If not, there's a problem
someplace; either in the distutils install of mimelib, or in the
sys.path hack in Defaults.py.

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 04:53:19 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:53:19 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215204144.02f75ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.45631.157333.90269@anthem.wooz.org>

    | Traceback:
    | Traceback (most recent call last):
    |   File "/home/mailman/scripts/driver", line 105, in run_main
    |     main()
    |   File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 144, in main
    |     FormatConfiguration(doc, mlist, category, category_suffix, cgidata)
    |   File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 298, in FormatConfiguration
    |     form.AddItem(FormatOptionsSection(category, mlist, cgi_data))
    |   File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 315, in FormatOptionsSection
    |     options = GetConfigOptions(mlist, category)
    |   File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 953, in GetConfigOptions
    |     return mlist.GetConfigInfo()[category]
    |   File "../Mailman/MailList.py", line 361, in GetConfigInfo
    |     config_info['general'] = [
    | ValueError: list.index(x): x not in list

Darn, this looks familiar.  I seem to remember seeing this while I was
working on things a few weeks ago, but I don't remember what I did to
fix it.  I guess it's time for me to try a fresh install and see
what's busted.

:/

-Barry


From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 05:10:35 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:10:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14988.45478.57009.227108@anthem.wooz.org>
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215204144.02f75ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216000922.04dbeec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 11:50 PM 2/15/01 -0500, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

>>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:
>
>    RJ> Ok, gate_news doesn't work for me right now because python is
>    RJ> invoked -S, so it can't find mimelib to import Parser from.
>    RJ> Should I have dropped another copy of it in Mailman/pythonlib
>    RJ> after installing it?
>
>No, look at the bottom of Defaults.py.  It's suppose to `hack your
>path' by appending your Python's default site-packages directory onto
>the end of sys.path.  This is normally something that "import site"
>does automatically, but the -S flag disables doing the implicit import
>of site (because it slows things down considerably and most of the
>stuff in site you don't need).
>
>Put this before the import of mimelib.Parser in gate_news:
>
>print >> sys.stderr, sys.path

Chuckle.... Ok, now that I know how it's supposed to work, it's obvious why
it doesn't :-).

Move the "from mimelib.Parser import Parser" to *after* the block of code
that loads the Mailman defaults :-).  I.e. don't depend on the hacked path until
after you hacked it...




From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 05:18:21 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:18:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14988.45020.132847.794516@anthem.wooz.org>
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215201212.02d81ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216001520.02cf3c30@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 11:43 PM 2/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>    RJ> Ok, figuring, what the hell, it couldn't hurt, I copied all
>    RJ> the .txt and .html files from templates into a new
>    RJ> templates/en directory.  This at least got me the forms back
>    RJ> (although listinfo still won't render %(hostname))
>
>Hmm, it works for me, although I haven't done a fresh install yet.

Ok, I ought to be doing this in diffs, but that's the wrong machine/window..
But the solution to this problem is line 76 of listinfo.py.  You're setting
variables called "host_name" in the preceding 4-5 lines, then using
the %(hostname)s construct.  If you change it to %(host_name)s,
gosh it works.  

However, given that a quick survey shows it's hostname elsewhere
in the templates, changing the variables, rather than the substitution
string, is probably the correct answer.  In that particular module, however,
it's used as host_name a dozen times...  In my local copy I just did a 
global substitute of host_name for hostname, for cross-module consistency
sake...




From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 05:25:33 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:25:33 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14988.45173.531482.934269@anthem.wooz.org>
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215201212.02d81ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216002445.051504c0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 11:45 PM 2/15/01 -0500, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

>>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:
>
>    RJ> I tried resetting it, just in case, with mmsitepass (which,
>    RJ> btw, bitches about getpass failing, which I don't remember
>    RJ> happening before, but might have).
>
>I bet you didn't enable the termios module when you built Python 2.0.
>Fortunately, Python 2.1 is going to be /much/ better about building a
>batteries-included interpreter, so stuff like this should go away.
>Still, I'm not going to require Python 2.1.  Just edit your
>Modules/Setup file to enable termios and your getpass should work.

And, like magic... Jeez, that's the third time I had to regenerate python
today because I figured out that I really probably did need that option module..



From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 05:32:01 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:32:01 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14988.45631.157333.90269@anthem.wooz.org>
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215204144.02f75ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216003013.04de6c50@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 11:53 PM 2/15/01 -0500, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

>    | Traceback:
>    | Traceback (most recent call last):
>    |   File "/home/mailman/scripts/driver", line 105, in run_main
>    |     main()
>    |   File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 144, in main
>    |     FormatConfiguration(doc, mlist, category, category_suffix, cgidata)
>    |   File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 298, in FormatConfiguration
>    |     form.AddItem(FormatOptionsSection(category, mlist, cgi_data))
>    |   File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 315, in FormatOptionsSection
>    |     options = GetConfigOptions(mlist, category)
>    |   File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 953, in GetConfigOptions
>    |     return mlist.GetConfigInfo()[category]
>    |   File "../Mailman/MailList.py", line 361, in GetConfigInfo
>    |     config_info['general'] = [
>    | ValueError: list.index(x): x not in list
>
>Darn, this looks familiar.  I seem to remember seeing this while I was
>working on things a few weeks ago, but I don't remember what I did to
>fix it.  I guess it's time for me to try a fresh install and see
>what's busted.

Hmm.. Would it be pissed because you're trying to load the preferred _language
settings for a list that was created before those values were in the structure?

Ah-yup.  Just created a new list, and it works fine; the old lists all blow up.
When make install did the make update, it should probably have convered all
the config.db's to the new structure.



From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 06:01:02 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:01:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215201212.02d81ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216002445.051504c0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.49694.915624.227937@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> And, like magic... Jeez, that's the third time I had to
    RJ> regenerate python today because I figured out that I really
    RJ> probably did need that option module..

Fun, fun!


From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 06:02:12 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:02:12 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215204144.02f75ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216000922.04dbeec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.49764.946978.113709@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> Chuckle.... Ok, now that I know how it's supposed to work,
    RJ> it's obvious why it doesn't :-).

    RJ> Move the "from mimelib.Parser import Parser" to *after* the
    RJ> block of code that loads the Mailman defaults :-).  I.e. don't
    RJ> depend on the hacked path until after you hacked it...

Freakin' Duh. :)  Okay, now I /know/ it's time for sleep.


From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 06:25:45 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:25:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] latest checkins
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216012336.04e5dec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

Ok, Barry, the latest checkins solved the missing en file problem.
(I deleted my en dir after I saw what you were doing.)

w.r.t the comment about long term solutions, wouldn't the right move
be for 2.1 to install an en directory, and load it with the english
files?  I would presume that mailman will ship, eventually, with
all the various language files that are contributed back, so why
should en be any different?  That way there's no real need to
special case, since the install porocedure will correctly build the
directory.



From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 06:33:01 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:33:01 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215201212.02d81ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216001520.02cf3c30@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.51613.152623.631858@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> However, given that a quick survey shows it's hostname
    RJ> elsewhere in the templates, changing the variables, rather
    RJ> than the substitution string, is probably the correct answer.

Indeed.  Thanks.

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 06:39:29 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:39:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] latest checkins
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216012336.04e5dec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.52001.7008.133652@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> w.r.t the comment about long term solutions, wouldn't the
    RJ> right move be for 2.1 to install an en directory, and load it
    RJ> with the english files?

Probably so.

    RJ> I would presume that mailman will ship, eventually, with all
    RJ> the various language files that are contributed back, so why
    RJ> should en be any different?  That way there's no real need to
    RJ> special case, since the install porocedure will correctly
    RJ> build the directory.

I'm not sure I want to ship other languages with the base Mailman
distro.  There are three reasons.  First, the language catalogs will
increase the size of the distro, although it that may not be big
enough to matter.  Second, and more important, is that the language
catalogs may have a different release schedule than the core system.
I.e. new languages will be donated and existing languages will be
updated on the translator's time frame.  I'd like to not tie language
specifics to the core system.  Third, I think very few sites are going
to need all the available languages.  I can certainly see that many
sites will need one, perhaps two languages, but not all.

I'm not 100% on this though, so convincing arguments are welcome!  But
right now I see shipping the core Mailman distro with English support
only, but making it extremely simple to download and install a new
language.

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 06:54:34 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:54:34 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215204144.02f75ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216003013.04de6c50@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.52906.47297.734630@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> Ah-yup.  Just created a new list, and it works fine; the old
    RJ> lists all blow up.  When make install did the make update, it
    RJ> should probably have convered all the config.db's to the new
    RJ> structure.

Except that I bumped the DATA_FILE_VERSION in Version.py to 23 so when
any old list (i.e. with a self.data_version < 23) is loaded, it should
have gotten the preferred_language attribute set to
mm_cfg.DEFAULT_SERVER_LANGUAGE.

confused-and-sleepy y'rs,
-Barry


From hypnose@t-online.de  Fri Feb 16 08:46:50 2001
From: hypnose@t-online.de (guenter wessling)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:46:50 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] core with intl language setups
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010216094650.007abd60@pop.btx.dtag.de>

Hi, Barry, hi all,
pretty new to the list. Great program - thanks for all the work.

Question of understanding:
where is the "bingo" in language diffs ?
I mean: the text of the admin pages, which remains in English if I
translate all the "templates", is it hard-coded in python (someone on the
intl.-list told me) or is it to be found somewhere in the mailman-files
(.py or whereever) ?

guenter



>I'm not sure I want to ship other languages with the base Mailman
>distro.  There are three reasons.  First, the language catalogs will
>increase the size of the distro, although it that may not be big
>enough to matter.  Second, and more important, is that the language
>catalogs may have a different release schedule than the core system.
>I.e. new languages will be donated and existing languages will be
>updated on the translator's time frame.  I'd like to not tie language
>specifics to the core system.  Third, I think very few sites are going
>to need all the available languages.  I can certainly see that many
>sites will need one, perhaps two languages, but not all.
>
>I'm not 100% on this though, so convincing arguments are welcome!  But
>right now I see shipping the core Mailman distro with English support
>only, but making it extremely simple to download and install a new
>language.
>
>-Barry
>
>
guenter wessling (hypnose@t-online.de)


From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 21:15:45 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:15:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

Jeez, Barry, that itty-bitty change you made last night to not 
import _ into the namespace by default broke a *lot* of things...

I was trying to use config_list, and had to edit several modules
to do a from Mailman.i18n import _...
Digester.py
Archiver.py
GatewayManager.py
MailList.py

(Of course, just my luck, MailList.py blows up the same place the admin
page blows up on a bad list, line 362 in GetConfigInfo, with the
same "ValueError: list.index(x): x not in list" error...)

I expect there's more places that need to do the import, Those are just the
first few.

Oh, and something about the HTMLFormatter change last night broke newlang,
I haven't had a chance to look at that since 4am.



From thomas@xs4all.net  Fri Feb 16 22:00:37 2001
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:00:37 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>; from jarrell@vt.edu on Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 04:15:45PM -0500
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20010216230037.O4924@xs4all.nl>

On Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 04:15:45PM -0500, Ron Jarrell wrote:
> Jeez, Barry, that itty-bitty change you made last night to not 
> import _ into the namespace by default broke a *lot* of things...

> I was trying to use config_list, and had to edit several modules
> to do a from Mailman.i18n import _...
> Digester.py
> Archiver.py
> GatewayManager.py
> MailList.py

A quick grep through a fresh tree gives me this handy (for Barry and for
those that run pre-alpha Mailmans on production machines :-) list:

+./Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py
+./Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py
+./Mailman/Bouncer.py
+./Mailman/Deliverer.py
+./Mailman/Digester.py
+./Mailman/Errors.py
+./Mailman/GatewayManager.py
+./Mailman/ListAdmin.py
+./Mailman/MailCommandHandler.py
+./Mailman/MailList.py
+./Mailman/htmlformat.py
+./Mailman/Cgi/admin.py
+./Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py
+./Mailman/Cgi/edithtml.py
+./Mailman/Cgi/handle_opts.py
+./Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py
+./Mailman/Cgi/options.py
+./Mailman/Cgi/private.py
+./Mailman/Cgi/roster.py
+./Mailman/Cgi/subscribe.py
+./Mailman/Handlers/Acknowledge.py

(That's done using:
find . -type f -print | xargs grep -l '[^_a-zA-Z0-9]_(' > list
find . -type f -print | xargs fgrep -l 'import _' | diff -u - list | fgrep +
and ignoring the .gz files.)

It's probably safe to assume that anything that imports gettext needs to be
modified to import _ explicitly, but I'll let Barry draw that conclusion :-)

-- 
Thomas Wouters 

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 22:11:29 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:11:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216162624.03247700@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216164232.03293950@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 04:15 PM 2/16/01 -0500, I wrote: 
>Jeez, Barry, that itty-bitty change you made last night to not 
>import _ into the namespace by default broke a *lot* of things... 
> 
>I was trying to use config_list, and had to edit several modules 
>to do a from Mailman.i18n import _...
Add Bouncer.py to that.

W.r.t my newlang problems..

Since I deleted the templates/en dir I had created to test the fallback, newlang wouldn't
work, because there's no en directory to copy to the new list...  It needs to catch the fact
that ok_langs is empty before the loop that prints which languages were installed runs,
otherwise the status message looks stupid :-).

Perhaps instead of saying "language not supported" it say "No template directory for
language." Particularly since that's the only check; it doesn't matter if the language is
defined or not in Defaults, and, in fact, if it's NOT defined there, you can still install
support for it with newlang, you just can't tell mailman to use it later.  (Which means,
come to think of it, that in a perfect world newlang would check the supported languages
array out of Defaults as well as looking for the directory...)

Newlang also has a nasty habit of leaving the list locked if anything goes wrong.

w.r.t your comment about needing to look at the call to HTMLFormatter. You do
need to init it, because mlist._template_path is used by it, and by newlang, and it's
*not* defined in MailList; HTMLFormatter adds it to the object when it runs.  The
reason it's broken, however, which came to me in a blinding flash of "duh", is that 
we instantiate an mlist for the list we're looking at, but do the initvars on "list", not 
"mlist"... So on newlang line 86 change list to mlist.

BTW, there's going to be either a very smart update procedure needed, or a lot of
verbiage in the Readme... Or both.  People need to install EN support into
each list they own.  Which they can do by hand, or with newlang.  However, if
newlang does it, it'll populate the files from the template directory.  Now, because
all lists default to en, they'll be using *those* templates, which might differ from the
one that are installed in the list.  (Which, is, of course, a regular occupational hazard
of updating mailman, but there's a new twist.)  So those templates, which haven't
been changed by anyone, won't be used anymore, without admins being any the wiser
unless they pay attention.  

Two things need to happen in an upgrade, order optional.  Each list needs an "en" subdir,
and all the templates in the list dir need to move to the en dir.  Also, all the templates, as usual,
need to be checked by hand against the new versions.  (Luckily, so far, the only difference 
between any of mine, and the defaults is the revision number in the comment.)

If everyone was running an english version, I'd say just have update move *.html, installing
a new headfoot.html, since that seems to be new,  into an en dir for each list, then print the
standard warning to go compare configurations.  Anyone that's already done any language
changes though will find their local language sitting in the english subdir... Either way, there's 
copius notage in the readme necessary to explain where things are going and why...





From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 23:36:04 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:36:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Ah-HAH!
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216182559.05f30de0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

I found the damn error causing tracebacks in MailList from "ValueError: list.index(x): x not in list."

I was right that it was in the languages section, because that's the only place in MailList we call
index.  I had to unravel the language support though.

While it's building the options list which will be handed off to the cgi form, it's trying
to create the "pretty" names for the languages installed on that list.  At line 352
we do

langs = self.GetAvailableLanguages()

(where self is the current MailList).  GetAvailableLanguages brute force just walks the
directory and looks for subdirs, by calling Utils.GetDirectories(self._full_path).  If there's
a subdir, it's a language.  (Which means don't be creating subdirs under lists; mailman will
think you've added a new language.  I'm thinking the template dir should be listname/templates/language
so as to avoid confusion...)

If there are no subdirs, then there are no languages.  langs is set to [].

at line 381, in the monolithic setting of the config_info['general'] block, we have:

 ('preferred_language', mm_cfg.Select,
	     (langs, map(_, map(Utils.GetLanguageDescr, langs)),
	      langs.index(self.preferred_language)), 0,
             _("Default language for this list."),
             _("All messages not related to an specific user will be displayed in this language.")),

Since self.preferred_language is forced to en on every new list, when we do the
langs.index(self.preferred_language), in this scenario, well, gosh, taking an index of something
not in the list is bad, since we're doing nothing to catch any possible exceptions...

So the short term workaround, for me, is to make sure all the lists have en installed.
Ideally the code needs to cope with a missing language cleanly.  This, I guess, makes it
more important for the update proc to forcibly install *something* in a new en directory
for any list that doesn't have one.

-Ron



From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 23:38:02 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:38:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] newlang
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216183735.05f33410@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

Oh, yea... newlang just never unlocks the list.  Period.  Not just when there's an error.



From jarrell@vt.edu  Sat Feb 17 02:19:00 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:19:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
In-Reply-To: <20010216230037.O4924@xs4all.nl>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216211533.04a80cc0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 11:00 PM 2/16/01 +0100, Thomas Wouters wrote:
>A quick grep through a fresh tree gives me this handy (for Barry and for
>those that run pre-alpha Mailmans on production machines :-) list:

Ok, I went in and put in the appropriate import in all those modules except
pipermail, which has it's own internal definition of _, and one other
which was importing all of the i18n module anyway.

Barry, just in case you haven't done it, and it helps you, I uploaded a patch 
to 103852, which is a diff against my current snapshot; it's all the imports, plus
the typo in newlang.



From jarrell@vt.edu  Sat Feb 17 03:32:55 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:32:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216211533.04a80cc0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
References: <20010216230037.O4924@xs4all.nl>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216223214.02ed6060@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

rmlang has the same problem lang did.

:98s/list/m&/

:-)



From jarrell@vt.edu  Sat Feb 17 04:03:08 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:03:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] kind of working :-).
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216230121.04a38ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

I'm calling it quits for tonight, but I did manage to get a message through, after
starting up the new queue runner process.  Also managed to get it to blow chunks,
because I created a list, then deleted it, before queuerunner managed to deliver
the notice to the owner.  It wasn't happy.  Haven't looked at the code yet..

Feb 16 22:58:25 2001 (9814) qrunner watchdog detected subprocess exit
    (pid: 9823, sig: 0, sts: 1, class: Mailman.Queue.VirginRunner.VirginRunner, 
slice 0 of 1)
    restarting
Feb 16 22:58:25 2001 (9824) error opening list: test2

Feb 16 22:58:25 2001 (9824) Uncaught runner exception: There is no variable name
d 'filebase'
Feb 16 22:58:25 2001 (9824) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 92, in __oneloop
    self.__onefile(msg, msgdata)
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 118, in __onefile
    'Dequeuing message destined for missing list: %s' %
NameError: There is no variable named 'filebase'



From jarrell@vt.edu  Sat Feb 17 04:05:01 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:05:01 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Oh yea
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216230425.02ec6ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

Almost forgot - Barry, qrunner's getopt doesn't actually know what the -b argument is...



From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Sat Feb 17 07:15:33 2001
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:15:33 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug in mailman 2.0
Message-ID: 

Ran into a fun but in 2.0 the other day. A European user kept having his
messages held in the moderator queue for not being subscribed, even though
he was.

Turns out his From was encoded:

From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F8rgen?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_?=
  =?iso-8859-1?Q?N=F8rgaard?= 


And mailman can't handle this, even though it's perfectly legal. It can't
find the address to properly validate it as subscribed.....

Chuq

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome 
[ =  = ]
Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you.

"He doesn't have ulcers, but he's a carrier."



From thomas@xs4all.net  Sat Feb 17 10:26:31 2001
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:26:31 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216211533.04a80cc0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>; from jarrell@vt.edu on Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 09:19:00PM -0500
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> <20010216230037.O4924@xs4all.nl> <5.0.2.1.2.20010216211533.04a80cc0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20010217112631.P4924@xs4all.nl>

On Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 09:19:00PM -0500, Ron Jarrell wrote:
> At 11:00 PM 2/16/01 +0100, Thomas Wouters wrote:
> >A quick grep through a fresh tree gives me this handy (for Barry and for
> >those that run pre-alpha Mailmans on production machines :-) list:

> Ok, I went in and put in the appropriate import in all those modules except
> pipermail, which has it's own internal definition of _, and one other
> which was importing all of the i18n module anyway.

Note that that isn't enough. 'from module import *' doesn't import names
starting with a _, and _ does start with a _. I can't find which module
you're talking about, though, so maybe you mean that it does 'from module
import spam, parrot, ham, creosote, voom, _, bucket', which would work.

-- 
Thomas Wouters 

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From scranefield@infoscience.otago.ac.nz  Sun Feb 18 20:57:03 2001
From: scranefield@infoscience.otago.ac.nz (Stephen Cranefield)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:57:03 +1300
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Feature request: Make bookmarks into archives work better
Message-ID: <3A90371F.95E14C59@infoscience.otago.ac.nz>

I subscribe to a number of mailing lists on a site that uses mailman
and I would like to be able to reference in a paper a message in the
archives of one of the lists.  The archives are for members only but
anyone can join the list.

The problem is that entering the URL for an individual message 
results in a login page and there is no information on that
page about how to subscribe to the list.  Is it possible to add a
link from the log-in page for a list to the subscription page?

Secondly, after a successful login, the result is the top-level
archive page for the list - the URL for the individual message
has been ignored.  Is it possible to fix this so the actual URL
that was entered is remembered?

- Stephen


From jcrey@uma.es  Mon Feb 19 09:46:11 2001
From: jcrey@uma.es (Juan Carlos Rey Anaya)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:46:11 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Ah-HAH!
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216182559.05f30de0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3A90EB63.1B6AEEEA@uma.es>

Ron Jarrell wrote:
>
> (where self is the current MailList).  GetAvailableLanguages brute forc=
e just walks the
> directory and looks for subdirs, by calling Utils.GetDirectories(self._=
full_path).  If there's
> a subdir, it's a language.  (Which means don't be creating subdirs unde=
r lists; mailman will
> think you've added a new language.  I'm thinking the template dir shoul=
d be listname/templates/language
> so as to avoid confusion...)
> =

I have written that code supposing there is a hirarchy under templates
like
templates/en
         /es
         /it
like we described so long ago in mailman developers
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/1999-May/001084.html

Cheers
-- =

                          ___
                         / F \
                        [[[]]]]
                        ( O O )
   #----------------0000--(_)--0000---------------#
   |    Juan Carlos Rey Anaya (jcrey@uma.es)      |
   |      Servicio Central de inform=E1tica         |
   |       Universidad de M=E1laga - Espa=F1a         |
   #----------------------------------------------#
   #      reynini@22x28.org   pa los globeros :-) #
   #----------------------------------------------#


From gob@multi.com.uy  Mon Feb 19 13:29:49 2001
From: gob@multi.com.uy (Gustavo Olaza)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:29:49 -0300 (UYT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Translate Mailman to spanish
Message-ID: 

Hi!
I'm going to use the Mailman software soon.  Thank you!.  But previously,
i need to translate it to spanish.  I downloaded the sources of
Mailman recently from ftp.gnu.org and seek the way of do the translation
in the best form, to leave this work available to other people.
What i must do for this?
Could anyone of you help me?

Thanks again,

;-)
Gustavo Olaza



From jarrell@vt.edu  Mon Feb 19 20:55:13 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:55:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Ah-HAH!
In-Reply-To: <3A90EB63.1B6AEEEA@uma.es>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216182559.05f30de0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010219155306.02b721b0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 10:46 AM 2/19/01 +0100, you wrote:
>Ron Jarrell wrote:
>>
>> (where self is the current MailList).  GetAvailableLanguages brute force just walks the
>> directory and looks for subdirs, by calling Utils.GetDirectories(self._full_path).  If there's
>> a subdir, it's a language.  (Which means don't be creating subdirs under lists; mailman will
>> think you've added a new language.  I'm thinking the template dir should be listname/templates/language
>> so as to avoid confusion...)
>> 
>I have written that code supposing there is a hirarchy under templates
>like
>templates/en
>         /es
>         /it
>like we described so long ago in mailman developers
>http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/1999-May/001084.html

Yea the ~mailman/templates directory is like that.  What I meant was the per-list
language support.  It should probably be ~mailman/lists/listname/template/XX, or
maybe template is the wrong word here.  Regardless, given that the code just
assumes any subdirs are languages, to prevent administrators from accidentally
getting hoist on their own petard, there probably should be a designated place
they go...



From jarrell@vt.edu  Mon Feb 19 20:51:46 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:51:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
In-Reply-To: <20010217112631.P4924@xs4all.nl>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216211533.04a80cc0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <20010216230037.O4924@xs4all.nl>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216211533.04a80cc0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010219155035.02b77ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 11:26 AM 2/17/01 +0100, you wrote:
>On Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 09:19:00PM -0500, Ron Jarrell wrote:
>> At 11:00 PM 2/16/01 +0100, Thomas Wouters wrote:
>> >A quick grep through a fresh tree gives me this handy (for Barry and for
>> >those that run pre-alpha Mailmans on production machines :-) list:
>
>> Ok, I went in and put in the appropriate import in all those modules except
>> pipermail, which has it's own internal definition of _, and one other
>> which was importing all of the i18n module anyway.
>
>Note that that isn't enough. 'from module import *' doesn't import names
>starting with a _, and _ does start with a _. I can't find which module
>you're talking about, though, so maybe you mean that it does 'from module
>import spam, parrot, ham, creosote, voom, _, bucket', which would work.

Errors.py just says "import Mailman.i18n"  So that means it's not importing
_?  Can it use it explicitly?  Because what it does is a "rejection=Mailman.i18n._('text')"



From jarrell@vt.edu  Mon Feb 19 20:58:43 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:58:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] NewsRunner
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010219155732.06794d50@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

Needs do import syslog before using it to log...



From thomas@xs4all.net  Tue Feb 20 08:40:09 2001
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:40:09 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010219155035.02b77ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>; from jarrell@vt.edu on Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 03:51:46PM -0500
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216211533.04a80cc0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> <20010216230037.O4924@xs4all.nl> <5.0.2.1.2.20010216211533.04a80cc0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> <20010217112631.P4924@xs4all.nl> <5.0.2.1.2.20010219155035.02b77ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20010220094006.A13911@xs4all.nl>

On Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 03:51:46PM -0500, Ron Jarrell wrote:

> >> Ok, I went in and put in the appropriate import in all those modules except
> >> pipermail, which has it's own internal definition of _, and one other
> >> which was importing all of the i18n module anyway.

> >Note that that isn't enough. 'from module import *' doesn't import names
> >starting with a _, and _ does start with a _. I can't find which module
> >you're talking about, though, so maybe you mean that it does 'from module
> >import spam, parrot, ham, creosote, voom, _, bucket', which would work.

> Errors.py just says "import Mailman.i18n"  So that means it's not
> importing _?  Can it use it explicitly?  Because what it does is a
> "rejection=Mailman.i18n._('text')"

Yes, that works, too. 

-- 
Thomas Wouters 

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From fil@rezo.net  Tue Feb 20 09:14:49 2001
From: fil@rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:14:49 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
Message-ID: <20010220101449.A11895@orwell.bok.net>

Dear mailman-coders

You recently changed all calls like
    write('(locked)', file=sys.stderr)
to
    print >> sys.stderr, _('(locked)')

but the latter will not compile on my machine. Am I missing something?

Here's what I get when I call almost every program in mailman/bin:
> ./withlist 
  File "./withlist", line 128
    print >> sys.stderr, _(__doc__)
           ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax




-- Fil



From ralph@inputplus.demon.co.uk  Tue Feb 20 09:52:46 2001
From: ralph@inputplus.demon.co.uk (Ralph Corderoy)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:52:46 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: Message from Fil 
 of "Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:14:49 +0100." <20010220101449.A11895@orwell.bok.net>
Message-ID: <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>

Hi Fil,

> You recently changed all calls like
>     write('(locked)', file=sys.stderr)
> to
>     print >> sys.stderr, _('(locked)')
> 
> but the latter will not compile on my machine. Am I missing something?

I'd guess that your version of Python isn't recent enough to have the
new `>>' for I/O redirection.

Sorry, but I don't know what version you'd require.


Ralph.



From fil@rezo.net  Tue Feb 20 10:18:54 2001
From: fil@rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:18:54 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>; from ralph@inputplus.demon.co.uk on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 09:52:46AM +0000
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20010220111854.A12500@orwell.bok.net>

But I have :
Python 1.5.2 (#0, Dec 27 2000, 14:53:01)  [GCC 2.95.2 20000220 (Debian
GNU/Linux)] on linux2
Copyright 1991-1995 Stichting Mathematisch Centrum, Amsterdam



@ Ralph Corderoy (ralph@inputplus.demon.co.uk) :
> 
> Hi Fil,
> 
> > You recently changed all calls like
> >     write('(locked)', file=sys.stderr)
> > to
> >     print >> sys.stderr, _('(locked)')
> > 
> > but the latter will not compile on my machine. Am I missing something?
> 
> I'd guess that your version of Python isn't recent enough to have the
> new `>>' for I/O redirection.
> 
> Sorry, but I don't know what version you'd require.
> 
> 
> Ralph.
> 

-- Fil



From fil@rezo.net  Tue Feb 20 10:47:50 2001
From: fil@rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:47:50 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>; from ralph@inputplus.demon.co.uk on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 09:52:46AM +0000
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>

> > You recently changed all calls like
> >     write('(locked)', file=sys.stderr)
> > to
> >     print >> sys.stderr, _('(locked)')
> > 
> > but the latter will not compile on my machine. Am I missing something?
> 
> I'd guess that your version of Python isn't recent enough to have the
> new `>>' for I/O redirection.
> 
> Sorry, but I don't know what version you'd require.

Indeed it seems that python 1.52 does not accept the new calls. The error is
not here with python2.

miel:~/mailman# python2
Python 2.0 (#0, Jan 11 2001, 10:52:15) 
[GCC 2.95.2 20000220 (Debian GNU/Linux)] on linux2
Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> print >> sys.stderr, "toto"
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "", line 1, in ?
NameError: There is no variable named 'sys'
>>> 


miel:~/mailman# python
Python 1.5.2 (#0, Dec 27 2000, 14:53:01)  [GCC 2.95.2 20000220 (Debian
GNU/Linux)] on linux2
Copyright 1991-1995 Stichting Mathematisch Centrum, Amsterdam
>>> print >> sys.stderr, "toto"
  File "", line 1
    print >> sys.stderr, "toto"
           ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax


-- Fil



From dan.mick@west.sun.com  Tue Feb 20 10:59:56 2001
From: dan.mick@west.sun.com (Dan Mick)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:59:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <3A924E2C.E4A6B9FF@west.sun.com>


"Barry A. Warsaw" wrote:
	.
	.
	.
> Remember, Python 2.0 is required!
	.
	.
	.
> 
> Enjoy,
> -Barry


This would explain the >> issues, Fil...


From thomas@xs4all.net  Tue Feb 20 11:39:22 2001
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:39:22 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>; from fil@rezo.net on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 11:47:50AM +0100
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>
Message-ID: <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 11:47:50AM +0100, Fil wrote:
> > > You recently changed all calls like
> > >     write('(locked)', file=sys.stderr)
> > > to
> > >     print >> sys.stderr, _('(locked)')
> > > 
> > > but the latter will not compile on my machine. Am I missing something?
> > 
> > I'd guess that your version of Python isn't recent enough to have the
> > new `>>' for I/O redirection.
> > 
> > Sorry, but I don't know what version you'd require.

> Indeed it seems that python 1.52 does not accept the new calls.

You mean Python 1.5.2, not 1.52. There is a difference, even though 1.52
will probably never exist :)

> The error is not here with python2.

The README clearly states what version of Python you need to run Mailman.
It currently says:

    Mailman requires Python 2.0 or greater, which can be downloaded
    from [...]

Future versions will probably require Python 2.1 ;)

-- 
Thomas Wouters 

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From fil@rezo.net  Tue Feb 20 11:50:13 2001
From: fil@rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:50:13 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>; from thomas@xs4all.net on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:39:22PM +0100
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net> <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net>

@ Thomas Wouters (thomas@xs4all.net) :
> The README clearly states what version of Python you need to run Mailman.
> It currently says:
> 
>     Mailman requires Python 2.0 or greater, which can be downloaded
>     from [...]
> 
> Future versions will probably require Python 2.1 ;)

All right. But. I've installed python2 with Debian, and mailman does not
know how to use it (Debian installs python2 as /usr/bin/python2, and
/usr/bin/env python points to the python1x version.)

But this must be a debian issue ;)

-- Fil



From thomas@xs4all.net  Tue Feb 20 11:54:31 2001
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:54:31 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net>; from fil@rezo.net on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:50:13PM +0100
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net> <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl> <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net>
Message-ID: <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:50:13PM +0100, Fil wrote:
> @ Thomas Wouters (thomas@xs4all.net) :
> > The README clearly states what version of Python you need to run Mailman.
> > It currently says:
> > 
> >     Mailman requires Python 2.0 or greater, which can be downloaded
> >     from [...]
> > 
> > Future versions will probably require Python 2.1 ;)

> All right. But. I've installed python2 with Debian, and mailman does not
> know how to use it (Debian installs python2 as /usr/bin/python2, and
> /usr/bin/env python points to the python1x version.)

So either point 'python' to 'python2', or change all scripts to point to the
right python executable.

> But this must be a debian issue ;)

Partly, yes. 

-- 
Thomas Wouters 

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From fil@rezo.net  Tue Feb 20 12:06:42 2001
From: fil@rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:06:42 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl>; from thomas@xs4all.net on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:54:31PM +0100
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net> <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl> <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net> <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <20010220130641.A419@orwell.bok.net>

> So either point 'python' to 'python2', or change all scripts to point to the
> right python executable.

Well I hoped 
./configure --with-mail-gid=65534 --with-python=/usr/bin/python2 
would do it. 

> > But this must be a debian issue ;)
> Partly, yes. 

The explanation is here; python2.0 does not have the right license for
Debian. Consequence: mailman is currently not compatible with debian.

http://lists.debian.org/debian-python-0102/msg00028.html

-- Fil



From thomas@xs4all.net  Tue Feb 20 12:14:01 2001
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:14:01 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <20010220130641.A419@orwell.bok.net>; from fil@rezo.net on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:06:42PM +0100
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net> <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl> <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net> <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl> <20010220130641.A419@orwell.bok.net>
Message-ID: <20010220131401.N13855@xs4all.nl>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:06:42PM +0100, Fil wrote:
> > So either point 'python' to 'python2', or change all scripts to point to the
> > right python executable.

> Well I hoped 
> ./configure --with-mail-gid=65534 --with-python=/usr/bin/python2 
> would do it. 

It should, probably, but it doesn't work for the scripts in bin/... Not sure
why that is. Barry ?

> > > But this must be a debian issue ;)
> > Partly, yes. 

> The explanation is here; python2.0 does not have the right license for
> Debian. Consequence: mailman is currently not compatible with debian.

That's not the reason for the python<->python2 difference, or at least
shouldn't be. If the licence isn't right, python2 shouldn't be distributed
at all ;) The name change is to avoid breakage in running scripts, because
of a few subtle changes in python 2.0.

-- 
Thomas Wouters 

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From mats@laplaza.org  Tue Feb 20 13:38:52 2001
From: mats@laplaza.org (mats@laplaza.org)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:38:52 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010219155035.02b77ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <200102201344.GAA19532@elvis.laplaza.org>

Ron Jarrell  said:

> At 11:26 AM 2/17/01 +0100, you wrote:
> >On Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 09:19:00PM -0500, Ron Jarrell wrote:
> >> At 11:00 PM 2/16/01 +0100, Thomas Wouters wrote:
> >> >A quick grep through a fresh tree gives me this handy (for Barry and for
> >> >those that run pre-alpha Mailmans on production machines :-) list:
> >
> >> Ok, I went in and put in the appropriate import in all those modules 
except
> >> pipermail, which has it's own internal definition of _, and one other
> >> which was importing all of the i18n module anyway.
> >
> >Note that that isn't enough. 'from module import *' doesn't import names
> >starting with a _, and _ does start with a _. I can't find which module
> >you're talking about, though, so maybe you mean that it does 'from module
> >import spam, parrot, ham, creosote, voom, _, bucket', which would work.
> 
> Errors.py just says "import Mailman.i18n"  So that means it's not importing
> _?  Can it use it explicitly?  Because what it does is a 
"rejection=Mailman.i18n._('text')"


Not a problem.  The _ restriction only applies to

from module import *

since that form brings in everything from the module
into the /current/ namespace.  Using

import module

there's no namespace pollution, so no need to restrict
what's brought in.

Mats


From claw@kanga.nu  Tue Feb 20 16:56:48 2001
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:56:48 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: Message from Fil 
 of "Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:50:13 +0100." <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net>
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net> <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>  <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net>
Message-ID: <2498.982688208@kanga.nu>

On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:50:13 +0100 
Fil   wrote:

> All right. But. I've installed python2 with Debian, and mailman
> does not know how to use it (Debian installs python2 as
> /usr/bin/python2, and /usr/bin/env python points to the python1x
> version.)

> But this must be a debian issue ;)

Move your /etc/alternatives pointer.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 20 17:20:27 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:20:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
References: 
 <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>
 <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <14994.42843.580459.669272@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "TW" == Thomas Wouters  writes:

    TW> The README clearly states what version of Python you need to
    TW> run Mailman.  It currently says:

    >> Mailman requires Python 2.0 or greater, which can be downloaded
    >> from [...]

Yup, I've announced that requirement long ago.  Python 2.0 has too
many great features (and bug fixes!) to ignore.

    TW> Future versions will probably require Python 2.1 ;)

I'm going to try to avoid that, if possible, especially since Python
2.1 isn't even in beta testing yet!

>>>>> "F" == Fil   writes:

    F> All right. But. I've installed python2 with Debian, and mailman
    F> does not know how to use it (Debian installs python2 as
    F> /usr/bin/python2, and /usr/bin/env python points to the
    F> python1x version.)

Two things.  You can use the --with-python configure option to choose
which Python executable gets compiled into the source.  Second, add a
symlink somewhere on your $PATH so that your shell finds
/usr/bin/python2 before wherever python1.x is installed.

>>>>> "F" == Fil   writes:

    F> The explanation is here; python2.0 does not have the right
    F> license for Debian. Consequence: mailman is currently not
    F> compatible with debian.

    F> http://lists.debian.org/debian-python-0102/msg00028.html

Two comments, which I'm not directing at the Debian folks because they
need to make their own decisions, and because I don't know who at
Debian to direct these to.

First, I don't buy the backwards compatibility argument.  Yes, some
code broke, but it was broken anyway (people using undocumented APIs).
The broken code is easily fixed.

Second, while the Python 1.6 license (which is included by value in
Python 2.0) is /technically/ incompatible with the GPL, it is in
spirit compatible.  The incompatibility really is a technicality of
the license language and not of philosophy, and I'm very confident
that an agreement between the FSF and CNRI will allow a release of
Python 1.6.1 (and hence Python 2.0.1) with this technicality erased.
Don't ask me about an ETA on that; if I had any influence over the
process at all, it would have happened a long time ago.  The FSF and
CNRI are like the proverbial rock and hard place, and we're the ones
stuck in the middle.

All that having been said, I specifically asked RMS if he had any
problems with me basing future Mailman releases on Python 2.0.  He
said he did not.

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 20 17:22:11 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:22:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
References: 
 <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>
 <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>
 <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl>
 <20010220130641.A419@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220131401.N13855@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <14994.42947.407042.519724@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "TW" == Thomas Wouters  writes:

    TW> It should, probably, but it doesn't work for the scripts in
    TW> bin/... Not sure why that is. Barry ?

Because the scripts in bin/ use the "/usr/bin/env python" trick.  You
need a symlink from "python -> python2" somewhere earlier in your
$PATH.

I'm not enthusiastic about changing this in the Mailman source, since
I'm disappointed at Debian's decision.

-Barry


From fil@rezo.net  Tue Feb 20 17:29:33 2001
From: fil@rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:29:33 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <14994.42947.407042.519724@anthem.wooz.org>; from barry@digicool.com on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:22:11PM -0500
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net> <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl> <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net> <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl> <20010220130641.A419@orwell.bok.net> <20010220131401.N13855@xs4all.nl> <14994.42947.407042.519724@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <20010220182933.B9562@orwell.bok.net>

@ Barry A. Warsaw (barry@digicool.com) :
> 
> >>>>> "TW" == Thomas Wouters  writes:
> 
>     TW> It should, probably, but it doesn't work for the scripts in
>     TW> bin/... Not sure why that is. Barry ?
> 
> Because the scripts in bin/ use the "/usr/bin/env python" trick.  You
> need a symlink from "python -> python2" somewhere earlier in your
> $PATH.

Well: I've symlinked /usr/bin/python to /usr/bin/python2, and another error
pops up : does mailman need some python libraries which are not in
python2-base ?

miel:~# /home/mailman/bin/newlist 
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/home/mailman/bin/newlist", line 56, in ?
    from Mailman import MailList
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 34, in ?
    from mimelib.address import getaddresses
ImportError: No module named mimelib.address



From thomas@xs4all.net  Tue Feb 20 17:39:28 2001
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:39:28 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <14994.42843.580459.669272@anthem.wooz.org>; from barry@digicool.com on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:20:27PM -0500
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net> <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl> <14994.42843.580459.669272@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <20010220183928.Q13855@xs4all.nl>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:20:27PM -0500, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

> First, I don't buy the backwards compatibility argument.  Yes, some
> code broke, but it was broken anyway (people using undocumented APIs).
> The broken code is easily fixed.

That is not something you can sell very easily, Barry. From the perspective
of providing a service to a lot of third parties, with at best a varying
cluelevel, upgrading is a very scary thing. I may seem very conservative on
python-dev, wrt. backwards compatibility, but I assure you I'm quite the
radical compared to some people, and compared to myself when considering
upgrades on production platforms :)

For instance, because we run webservers that serve over 10k domains, I am
very cautious in upgrading Apache, PHP or GD-lib on those machines. Yet
every time I do it, after careful consideration, I 'break' some websites
that were conciously or unconciously depending on a bug in some piece of
that software, or linked to a fixed version of a library, or using an
obsolete API. They might have been wrong in doing so, but from their
perspective it's very simple: it worked, *we* changed something, and now it
no longer works.

Nevertheless I do think Debian is going a bit over the wall in this case,
since they have a very clear distinction between stable, testing and
unstable trees. They could certainly switch python to python2 in the
unstable tree, since it'll be some time before that tree is going into
testing, and more yet before it's stable. It may have something to do with
the missing readline support in python2, though -- the disabling of modules
people might depend on falls under backwards compatibility again :)

-- 
Thomas Wouters 

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From thomas@xs4all.net  Tue Feb 20 17:43:01 2001
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:43:01 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <14994.42947.407042.519724@anthem.wooz.org>; from barry@digicool.com on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:22:11PM -0500
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net> <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl> <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net> <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl> <20010220130641.A419@orwell.bok.net> <20010220131401.N13855@xs4all.nl> <14994.42947.407042.519724@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <20010220184301.R13855@xs4all.nl>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:22:11PM -0500, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

> >>>>> "TW" == Thomas Wouters  writes:

>     TW> It should, probably, but it doesn't work for the scripts in
>     TW> bin/... Not sure why that is. Barry ?

> Because the scripts in bin/ use the "/usr/bin/env python" trick.  You
> need a symlink from "python -> python2" somewhere earlier in your
> $PATH.

But why provide the --with-python configure option if you end up having to
have python in your path after all ? It would make more sense if it allowed
pointing to a working python anywhere. I can think of several situations
where that might be desirable, for security or debugging purposes, and only
one of them is "because I run debian" :-)

-- 
Thomas Wouters 

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From ralph@inputplus.demon.co.uk  Tue Feb 20 17:54:25 2001
From: ralph@inputplus.demon.co.uk (Ralph Corderoy)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:54:25 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: Message from Fil 
 of "Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:29:33 +0100." <20010220182933.B9562@orwell.bok.net>
Message-ID: <200102201754.RAA01952@inputplus.demon.co.uk>

Hi Fil,

> Well: I've symlinked /usr/bin/python to /usr/bin/python2, and another error
> pops up : does mailman need some python libraries which are not in
> python2-base ?
> 
> ...
> ImportError: No module named mimelib.address

Yep, Barry's new mimelib.

    http://www.wooz.org/users/barry/software/mimelib/index.html


Ralph.



From gjp@in-addr.com  Tue Feb 20 18:13:08 2001
From: gjp@in-addr.com (Gary Palmer)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:13:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Archiver options
Message-ID: <42771.982692788@in-addr.com>

Hi,

Is there any way of turning off specific archive index options?
e.g. keep threads and author, but disable date and subject?

Thanks,

Gary


From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 20 18:17:23 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:17:23 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
References: 
 <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>
 <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>
 <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl>
 <20010220130641.A419@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220131401.N13855@xs4all.nl>
 <14994.42947.407042.519724@anthem.wooz.org>
 <20010220182933.B9562@orwell.bok.net>
Message-ID: <14994.46259.520948.790531@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "F" == Fil   writes:

    F> Well: I've symlinked /usr/bin/python to /usr/bin/python2, and
    F> another error pops up : does mailman need some python libraries
    F> which are not in python2-base ?

Yes, I thought my announcement of the Big Changes included a pointer
to mimelib.  It is not yet integrated, but will be for a future
release.

    http://barry.wooz.org/software/pyware.html

-Barry


From jarrell@vt.edu  Tue Feb 20 20:44:09 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:44:09 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] -checkins broken?
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010220154317.03312640@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

Something wrong with mailman-checkins?  A whole buncha stuff got checked in,
which fixed several of the things I'd noticed (although I'd already made those
changes locally), but I didn't see a thing from the checkins list...



From jarrell@vt.edu  Tue Feb 20 20:41:44 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:41:44 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <20010220182933.B9562@orwell.bok.net>
References: <14994.42947.407042.519724@anthem.wooz.org>
 
 <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>
 <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>
 <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl>
 <20010220130641.A419@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220131401.N13855@xs4all.nl>
 <14994.42947.407042.519724@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010220153937.02fee470@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 06:29 PM 2/20/01 +0100, Fil wrote:

>Well: I've symlinked /usr/bin/python to /usr/bin/python2, and another error
>pops up : does mailman need some python libraries which are not in
>python2-base ?
>
>miel:~# /home/mailman/bin/newlist 
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "/home/mailman/bin/newlist", line 56, in ?
>    from Mailman import MailList
>  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 34, in ?
>    from mimelib.address import getaddresses
>ImportError: No module named mimelib.address

If you're gonna run alpha code, you really need to read the developers list;
Barry pointed out quite clearly early on that you needed Python 2.0,
*and* you needed his mimelib module which wasn't in the mailman
tree yet, and gave the website to get it from.  There's a bunch of
problems with 2.1 right now, and if you've been noticing over the
last few days there's been a flurry of bug reports and patches 
(mostly from me, as I slam into them :-)), so it's a little more of a
"hands on" release (not surprising, since it's an alpha.)  In fact,
until the next round of checkins happens, it mostly wont work
at all without the patches I recently posted.



From jarrell@vt.edu  Tue Feb 20 21:54:07 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:54:07 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] -checkins broken?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010220154317.03312640@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010220165252.03279cb0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 03:44 PM 2/20/01 -0500, you wrote:

>Something wrong with mailman-checkins?  A whole buncha stuff got checked in,
>which fixed several of the things I'd noticed (although I'd already made those
>changes locally), but I didn't see a thing from the checkins list...

Sigh.  Never mind.  I gotta pay more attention.  I'm sitting here staring at
the CVS display, which is telling me the damned things are locally "M"odified,
and my sleep starved brain is telling me "They were 'P'atched again??"




From scott-brown@home.com  Tue Feb 20 22:36:11 2001
From: scott-brown@home.com (Scott Brown)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:36:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] COMPLETELY Virtual mailing lists....
Message-ID: <004801c09b8d$8724be00$0401a8c0@ibmpeers>

Has anyone been able to completely virtualize the mailing lists under
mailman v2?

I'm not talking about the improvements made in v2....  I mean having
multiple domains be able to have the SAME list name.  Unless I've missed
something, right now they're limited to being unique per machine.  I know I
can do this now with foo_LISTA and bar_LISTA - but thats just cludgy when
the users want LISTA as the name...

My gut instinct is to have all the file access routines store their info
under a directory named after the virtual host.  I'm not sure how simply
this could be done as I've not looked tooo deeply into the guts of it, but
if the file references are all dealt with via common routines, it couldnt be
that hard could it?

so in ($prefix)/mailman/lists there would be

		foo.com/somelistname
		foo.com/LISTA
		bar.com/someotherlistname
		bar.com/LISTA

Obviously, the mail receiver post script would need to look at who the mail
was addressed to in order to be able to deal with the appropriate list....
probably some extra things in the webpage generation as well.

Is this a pipe dream??




From kambiz@colltech.com  Tue Feb 20 22:47:11 2001
From: kambiz@colltech.com (Kambiz Aghaiepour)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:47:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Fwd: URGENT: Something in message is breaking mailman!]
Message-ID: <3A92F3EF.66784F9C@collectivetech.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------411069A381CA9810B284F32A
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I sent this to mailman-users and now I'm sending this to you to see if anyone
has any insight into this.

Actually, I've been able to track this down to a problem in the python library
mimetools.py.  The message that causes problems has a header as such:

Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status
        boundary="-------=_2EF51FF1.3FFF45E0"

And if you notice, the report-type value is not terminated with a ';'
character. As a result, the value gets set to:

    "delivery-status
        boundary=...."

So when ~mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/Netscape.py  (or whatever) goes to run (in
the process routine):

   boundary = msg.getparam('boundary')

it gets back None which gets pushed onto the stack.  Later, when str is popped
off the stack python fails because it can't do a string operation on None.

If you look at the mimetools.py in the python library, and look at the
parsetype method of the Message class, you'll see that the problem is in the
assumption that each of the variable declarations in the Content-Type: header
of the mime encoded message are always terminated by a semicolon.  Just as a
test, I hand modified the message in the qfiles directory and change the above
Content-Type: header to read:

Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
        boundary="-------=_2EF51FF1.3FFF45E0"

and the message was processed.  So, what is the fix?  Occasionally, a message
will come back and end up in the qfiles directory that has the header as
described above. As a result, qrunner fails (errors out) and NONE of the email
on the system is processed.  This is a critical problem.  Could you please
help out with this?

Thanks
Kambiz

ps. Please reply directly to me, as I am not on this list. Thanks

-- 
\o__O  o    -=<  Kambiz Aghaiepour - (919)593-1964   >=-    o   o
  \_  /|\   -=<  Senior Consultant - The Collective  >=-   //\ //\
   |\  |\   -=<  mailto:kambiz@collectivetech.com    >=-    //  //
  / /  |/   -=<  http://www.collectivetech.com/      >=-    |\  ||
--------------411069A381CA9810B284F32A
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Message-ID: <3A91E65D.E1697BA5@colltech.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:37:01 -0500
From: Kambiz Aghaiepour 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: URGENT: Something in message is breaking mailman!
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------1B82DA4AF17B451A26B7C01E"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------1B82DA4AF17B451A26B7C01E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

We are running mailman-2.0.1 under Red Hat Linux 6.2.  Python is version
1.5.2.  For some reason that I can't figure the following message is
breaking qrunner and if ever such a message should end up in the qfiles
directory, ALL list processing comes to a stand still (why?!!).  It
would be nice if mailman would file "bad" messages that cause problems
into a different directory for future examination.  Anyhow, please
excuse the .tgz attachment (gzip compressed tar file containing a .msg
and a .db file).  Additionally, I have attached the error file from
~mailman/logs.  Something odd is going on in multipart.py and I don't
know python at all so I was hoping someone on the list can figure out
what's going on.  Maybe you can somehow reproduce the problem.  Thanks
for your attention.

Kambiz

-- 
\o__O  o   Kambiz Aghaiepour, RHCE  -    Phone: (919) 524-7423   o   o
  \_  /|\  Collective Technologies  |\|  Pager: (800) 946-4646  //\ //\
   |\  |\  -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-  | | -=-=-=-  Pin# 1412622 =- //  //
  / /  |/ mailto:kambiz@colltech.com  | http://www.colltech.com  |\  ||
--------------1B82DA4AF17B451A26B7C01E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;
 name="error"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="error"

Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243): Traceback (innermost last):
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):   File "/usr/share/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 283, in ?
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):      kids = main(lock)
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):   File "/usr/share/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 252, in main
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):      keepqueued = dispose_message(mlist, msg, msgdata)
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):   File "/usr/share/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 121, in dispose_message
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):      if BouncerAPI.ScanMessages(mlist, mimemsg):
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/BouncerAPI.py", line 59, in ScanMessages
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):      addrs = func(msg)
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/Netscape.py", line 62, in process
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):      more = mfile.next()
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/multifile.py", line 121, in next
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):      while self.readline(): pass
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/multifile.py", line 93, in readline
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):      if marker == self.section_divider(sep):
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/multifile.py", line 157, in section_divider
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):      return "--" + str
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243): TypeError :  illegal argument type for built-in operation 
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253): Traceback (innermost last):
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):   File "/usr/share/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 283, in ?
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):      kids = main(lock)
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):   File "/usr/share/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 252, in main
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):      keepqueued = dispose_message(mlist, msg, msgdata)
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):   File "/usr/share/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 121, in dispose_message
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):      if BouncerAPI.ScanMessages(mlist, mimemsg):
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/BouncerAPI.py", line 59, in ScanMessages
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):      addrs = func(msg)
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/Netscape.py", line 62, in process
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):      more = mfile.next()
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/multifile.py", line 121, in next
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):      while self.readline(): pass
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/multifile.py", line 93, in readline
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):      if marker == self.section_divider(sep):
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/multifile.py", line 157, in section_divider
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):      return "--" + str
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253): TypeError :  illegal argument type for built-in operation 
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256): Traceback (innermost last):
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):   File "/usr/share/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 283, in ?
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):      kids = main(lock)
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):   File "/usr/share/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 252, in main
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):      keepqueued = dispose_message(mlist, msg, msgdata)
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):   File "/usr/share/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 121, in dispose_message
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):      if BouncerAPI.ScanMessages(mlist, mimemsg):
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/BouncerAPI.py", line 59, in ScanMessages
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):      addrs = func(msg)
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/Netscape.py", line 62, in process
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):      more = mfile.next()
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/multifile.py", line 121, in next
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):      while self.readline(): pass
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/multifile.py", line 93, in readline
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):      if marker == self.section_divider(sep):
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/multifile.py", line 157, in section_divider
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):      return "--" + str
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256): TypeError :  illegal argument type for built-in operation 


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2sD48Ytcsizb4gJe/3R/sF51lxtd7W8Ej85s6KrMT7cCU3L1xHA5gPt4O5DRB3cZx8JDjuF9
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/Oabq+Ht286gh+v4gz6rzmBQ5FCkMGKI6Fd3nsBeWdlpVX5EWO6W00wk9lVAgecIiZGZkENP
wCWD8lFGecjv8BXMeQG54CkeqRIupGmK81IyQQZdqQ0ulCVOyGEKmZVXytPyvim2m/GkkhQZ
V+oGoPBMKffgYfkaxyd8ixzkmXHM03SOnIIon55U6g4KP0SdcZzKD/ArziUJIe9pXh5oVLc0
qmvu70CLU+heDZvvoyTgdzn2fz/E+nQCF2PI+YE8msiPjJFZNAkFmhBPhFGA0QyNvw8aNaPJ
R1ngVCiHxDtexAHkUgs0P5UjY+OkoeIsKJ84KunDEdyLJk2KtvwBQyJnrBL7b1mjrKzUx2DK
VULe8JRVHghZnKKmRHYpgvT784j8tJINJfSR3pVfamvLaRkKkeZes7kO2pqLP0qWS3J+bq7m
G/n6fKQohPy3//64ox3taEc72tGOdrSjHe1oRzv6PvQvj/X8OwAoAAA=
--------------411069A381CA9810B284F32A--



From ashley@pcraft.com  Tue Feb 20 22:47:14 2001
From: ashley@pcraft.com (Ashley M. Kirchner)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:47:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] COMPLETELY Virtual mailing lists....
References: <004801c09b8d$8724be00$0401a8c0@ibmpeers>
Message-ID: <3A92F3F2.B35E7110@pcraft.com>

Scott Brown wrote:

> Has anyone been able to completely virtualize the mailing lists under
> mailman v2?

    Depends on how 'virtual' your setup is, and I suspect, it also depends on
the MTA.

    I have three domains sitting on one machine and mailman installed for each
one (meaning, three copies of mailman).  Each vhost has it's own web address,
and crontask.  And I can have the same list name under all three vhosts and it
works.

    lists.yeehaw.net    -> test-list@...
    lists.diarist.net   -> test-list@...  (these don't actually exist)
    lists.pcraft.net    -> test-list@...

    I run sendmail as my MTA, and using its virtusertable feature, combined with
aliases, each list knows where to go, what to do and what domain to use.

    I have lists that exist on two, or all three domains, same name.  And I have
lists that only exists on one of those domains.  It works like a charm....for
ME!  Doesn't mean it'll do the same for you.

    AMK4

--
W |
  |  I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere.
  |____________________________________________________________________
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Ashley M. Kirchner    .   303.442.6410 x130
  SysAdmin / Websmith                           .     800.441.3873 x130
  Photo Craft Laboratories, Inc.             .        eFax 248.671.0909
  http://www.pcraft.com                  .         3550 Arapahoe Ave #6
  .................. .  .  .     .               Boulder, CO 80303, USA




From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 20 23:23:52 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:23:52 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Fwd: URGENT: Something in message is breaking mailman!]
References: <3A92F3EF.66784F9C@collectivetech.com>
Message-ID: <14994.64648.127065.55403@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "KA" == Kambiz Aghaiepour  writes:

    KA> Actually, I've been able to track this down to a problem in
    KA> the python library mimetools.py.  The message that causes
    KA> problems has a header as such:

    | Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status
    |         boundary="-------=_2EF51FF1.3FFF45E0"


    KA> And if you notice, the report-type value is not terminated
    KA> with a ';' character. As a result, the value gets set to:

I'd call this a bug in the Netscape.py bounce detector, not in
mimetools.py.  The reason is that your message is not compliant with
the MIME RFC 1341, which requires the semi-colon separator between
parameters.  It is correct that rfc822.Message.getparam('boundary')
returns None in this case.

What's broken is that Netscape.py should make sure the boundary is not
None before it tries to use pass it to mimetools.

Here's a patch against Mailman 2.0.1.
-Barry

-------------------- snip snip --------------------
Index: Netscape.py
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/mailman/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/Netscape.py,v
retrieving revision 1.5
diff -u -r1.5 Netscape.py
--- Netscape.py	2000/06/20 05:40:36	1.5
+++ Netscape.py	2001/02/20 23:23:06
@@ -51,6 +51,8 @@
     if msg.getmaintype() <> 'multipart':
         return None
     boundary = msg.getparam('boundary')
+    if boundary is None:
+        return None
     msg.fp.seek(0)
     mfile = multifile.MultiFile(msg.fp)
     mfile.push(boundary)


From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 20 23:32:20 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:32:20 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] COMPLETELY Virtual mailing lists....
References: <004801c09b8d$8724be00$0401a8c0@ibmpeers>
 <3A92F3F2.B35E7110@pcraft.com>
Message-ID: <14994.65156.727101.701298@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "AMK" == Ashley M Kirchner  writes:

    AMK>     I have three domains sitting on one machine and mailman
    AMK> installed for each one (meaning, three copies of mailman).
    AMK> Each vhost has it's own web address, and crontask.  And I can
    AMK> have the same list name under all three vhosts and it works.

That's the commonly accepted practice for "full-virtual" operation.  I
don't plan on improving this situation until I get a Real Database
under Mailman.

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 20 23:42:59 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:42:59 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
References: 
 <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>
 <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>
 <14994.42843.580459.669272@anthem.wooz.org>
 <20010220183928.Q13855@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <14995.259.349861.2217@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "TW" == Thomas Wouters  writes:

    TW> That is not something you can sell very easily, Barry. From
    TW> the perspective of providing a service to a lot of third
    TW> parties, with at best a varying cluelevel, upgrading is a very
    TW> scary thing. I may seem very conservative on python-dev,
    TW> wrt. backwards compatibility, but I assure you I'm quite the
    TW> radical compared to some people, and compared to myself when
    TW> considering upgrades on production platforms :)

Upgrading sucks.  It always breaks something, and the only way to
avoid that is to never upgrade!  But I can appreciate the sentiment.
I think it was Jakob Neilsen who said, when he was talking about the
rate that users upgrade their browsers, that it takes about 2 years to
get the majority of users to upgrade to a new version.  If Python
adoption follows the same curve, I suspect that we'll still see
significant Python 1.5.2 usage for another 18 months or so. :}

    TW> Nevertheless I do think Debian is going a bit over the wall in
    TW> this case, since they have a very clear distinction between
    TW> stable, testing and unstable trees. They could certainly
    TW> switch python to python2 in the unstable tree, since it'll be
    TW> some time before that tree is going into testing, and more yet
    TW> before it's stable.

I don't keep up on Debian release procedures, but that sounds like the
right approach to me.
    
    TW> It may have something to do with the missing readline support
    TW> in python2, though -- the disabling of modules people might
    TW> depend on falls under backwards compatibility again :)

And now we're back to the licensing issues.  Which suck worse than
anything else.  I'd rather be debating the merits of indentation for
blocking with a devote obfuscated C code hacker than sit in another
room with lawyers debating licenses.

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 20 23:45:45 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:45:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
References: 
 <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>
 <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>
 <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl>
 <20010220130641.A419@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220131401.N13855@xs4all.nl>
 <14994.42947.407042.519724@anthem.wooz.org>
 <20010220184301.R13855@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <14995.425.827078.100793@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "TW" == Thomas Wouters  writes:

    TW> But why provide the --with-python configure option if you end
    TW> up having to have python in your path after all ? It would
    TW> make more sense if it allowed pointing to a working python
    TW> anywhere. I can think of several situations where that might
    TW> be desirable, for security or debugging purposes, and only one
    TW> of them is "because I run debian" :-)

Mostly because I didn't want to have .in files for every script in
bin/.  It didn't occur to me that a distro would rename the Python
executable to something other than `python'.  It might be time to
autoconf templatize those bin/ scripts.

-Barry


From scott-brown@home.com  Wed Feb 21 00:21:24 2001
From: scott-brown@home.com (Scott Brown)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:21:24 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] COMPLETELY Virtual mailing lists....
In-Reply-To: <14994.65156.727101.701298@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <006901c09b9c$3a117540$0401a8c0@ibmpeers>

> >>>>> "AMK" == Ashley M Kirchner  writes:
>
>     AMK>     I have three domains sitting on one machine and mailman
>     AMK> installed for each one (meaning, three copies of mailman).
>     AMK> Each vhost has it's own web address, and crontask.  And I can
>     AMK> have the same list name under all three vhosts and it works.
>
> That's the commonly accepted practice for "full-virtual" operation.  I
> don't plan on improving this situation until I get a Real Database
> under Mailman.
>

Isnt that kinda wasteful of system resources?  (I'm from a mainframe
background back in the days where 1meg of memory was a huge untapped
resource)

I mean - three copies of sendmail - each consuming 'x' bytes of main memory
+ swapped isnt very much - but if I've got 200+ domains on a server (I
dont - but I hope to one day ;-) then thats 200x the minimum memory
footprint that I want to give up to a routine that *could* be instantiated
just once.

Anyways - if that's "full-virtual" - then how about a
"little-bit-better-virtualization-than-currently-exists-without-breaking-the
-system-and-without-going-bald-virtualization" ;-)

Does the potential of what I mentioned - having the main data repositories
for a list all prefixed inside of mailman by  "foo.com/" exist??? Is the
underlaying structure of mailman laid out to minimize these changes if I
went ahead and started to patch them myself?

Or am I dreaming of a utopia that can not exist?




From scott-brown@home.com  Wed Feb 21 00:33:05 2001
From: scott-brown@home.com (Scott Brown)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:33:05 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] RE: [Mailman-Users] COMPLETELY Virtual mailing lists....
In-Reply-To: <3A92F3F2.B35E7110@pcraft.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c09b9d$dbceae60$0401a8c0@ibmpeers>

> Depends on how 'virtual' your setup is, and I suspect, it
> also depends on the MTA.

A single instance of sendmail (8.5.5) deals with all my virtual domains...
and hands off to the lists as defined by /etc/aliases (after the incoming
mail has been mashed into the resulting list name)

> I have three domains sitting on one machine and mailman
> installed for each one (meaning, three copies of mailman).

For a small number of hosts, I could deal with that... but I intend to
increase my number of virts.

> Each vhost has it's own web address, and crontask.  And I
> can have the same list name under all three vhosts and it
> works.

Eeek... I wasnt hoping to go that far... I was thinking more like one
central mailman process (like exists now) with the unique data stores
segmented by virtual host.

> I run sendmail as my MTA, and using its virtusertable
> feature, combined with aliases, each list knows where
> to go, what to do and what domain to use.

What I've got right now is a pseudo virtusertable setup (it's a leased
server - setup like the servers that the company I'm leasing from sets up
their own...) that hands off to /etc/aliases

so inbound mail to listname@virtualhost1.com

	--> listname (in /etc/aliases)

		--> | ../post listname

But of course, since listname in /etc/aliases is unique to the box, I'm
unable to assign that to another domain that may want that name as well.

Thats why I originally was prefixing the list name with the domain... but
thats ugly when you get

	thislongdomainname.com_help@thislongdomainname.com


OR am I just missing the boat somewhere??



From jarrell@vt.edu  Wed Feb 21 01:54:37 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:54:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] COMPLETELY Virtual mailing lists....
In-Reply-To: <006901c09b9c$3a117540$0401a8c0@ibmpeers>
References: <14994.65156.727101.701298@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010220205230.030bc950@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 07:21 PM 2/20/01 -0500, Scott Brown wrote:
>Isnt that kinda wasteful of system resources?  (I'm from a mainframe
>background back in the days where 1meg of memory was a huge untapped
>resource)
>
>I mean - three copies of sendmail - each consuming 'x' bytes of main memory
>+ swapped isnt very much - but if I've got 200+ domains on a server (I
>dont - but I hope to one day ;-) then thats 200x the minimum memory
>footprint that I want to give up to a routine that *could* be instantiated
>just once.

You did mean "mailman" where you put "sendmail" up there, right?
Because sendmail certainly has all the virtual hosting built in already, no
need to have multiple daemons running.  (In fact, I'm not sure how you
would; you need some kind of master that figured out what port the "other"
sendmail was on...)

Remember that much of the system will end up in shared memory anyway.
It's not as bad as it sounds.  None of this stuff stays resident anyway (well,
not until the 2.1 qrunner...)



From kambiz@colltech.com  Wed Feb 21 14:18:13 2001
From: kambiz@colltech.com (Kambiz Aghaiepour)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:18:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Fwd: URGENT: Something in message is breaking
 mailman!]
References: <3A92F3EF.66784F9C@collectivetech.com> <14994.64648.127065.55403@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <3A93CE25.B52087FC@collectivetech.com>

Simple!  Thanks. That does the trick. Now I need to send the postmaster of the
site generating the broken headers an email letting them know of the problem.

Do you think this change in Netscape.py will be made permanently for future
releases of Mailman?

Kambiz

"Barry A. Warsaw" wrote:
> 
> >>>>> "KA" == Kambiz Aghaiepour  writes:
> 
>     KA> Actually, I've been able to track this down to a problem in
>     KA> the python library mimetools.py.  The message that causes
>     KA> problems has a header as such:
> 
>     | Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status
>     |         boundary="-------=_2EF51FF1.3FFF45E0"
> 
>     KA> And if you notice, the report-type value is not terminated
>     KA> with a ';' character. As a result, the value gets set to:
> 
> I'd call this a bug in the Netscape.py bounce detector, not in
> mimetools.py.  The reason is that your message is not compliant with
> the MIME RFC 1341, which requires the semi-colon separator between
> parameters.  It is correct that rfc822.Message.getparam('boundary')
> returns None in this case.
> 
> What's broken is that Netscape.py should make sure the boundary is not
> None before it tries to use pass it to mimetools.
> 
> Here's a patch against Mailman 2.0.1.
> -Barry
> 
> -------------------- snip snip --------------------
> Index: Netscape.py
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /cvsroot/mailman/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/Netscape.py,v
> retrieving revision 1.5
> diff -u -r1.5 Netscape.py
> --- Netscape.py 2000/06/20 05:40:36     1.5
> +++ Netscape.py 2001/02/20 23:23:06
> @@ -51,6 +51,8 @@
>      if msg.getmaintype() <> 'multipart':
>          return None
>      boundary = msg.getparam('boundary')
> +    if boundary is None:
> +        return None
>      msg.fp.seek(0)
>      mfile = multifile.MultiFile(msg.fp)
>      mfile.push(boundary)

-- 
\o__O  o    -=<  Kambiz Aghaiepour - (919)593-1964   >=-    o   o
  \_  /|\   -=<  Senior Consultant - The Collective  >=-   //\ //\
   |\  |\   -=<  mailto:kambiz@collectivetech.com    >=-    //  //
  / /  |/   -=<  http://www.collectivetech.com/      >=-    |\  ||


From barry@digicool.com  Wed Feb 21 04:13:00 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:13:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14995.16460.287020.272723@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> Jeez, Barry, that itty-bitty change you made last night to not
    RJ> import _ into the namespace by default broke a *lot* of
    RJ> things...

I did that on purpose! :)  Explicit is better than implicit.

>>>>> "TW" == Thomas Wouters  writes:

    TW> It's probably safe to assume that anything that imports
    TW> gettext needs to be modified to import _ explicitly, but I'll
    TW> let Barry draw that conclusion :-)

Actually, Mailman.i18n._() tries to improve on gettext._ by adding the
new sys._getframe() hack to make the marked strings more succinct.  In
other words, where you'd have to write (using gettext as _):

    _('The list %(listname)s has %(membercnt)s non-digest members' %
      {'listname' : mlist.real_name(),
       'membercnt': count_of_non_digest_members(mlist),
       })

You can now write:

    listname = mlist.real_name()
    membercnt = count_of_non_digest_members(mlist)
    _('The list %(listname)s has %(membercnt)s non-digest members')

You have to use string-dict interpolation because the order of words
may be different in different languages.  But it seems ridiculous to
have to write the varnames twice as in the first example (the second
looks worse than it is in practice, because usually the variables you
want to interpolate into the string are already present as local
variables or arguments).

Most modules therefore will "from Mailman.i18n import _" but Errors.py
skips the from...import style to avoid circular imports.

BTW, thanks for the patch Ron.  I've just applied it and will now
review it, but checking in the changes may have to wait.  Seems SF is
refusing my ssh pubkey at the moment.

-Barry


From marc_news@valinux.com  Wed Feb 21 04:34:57 2001
From: marc_news@valinux.com (Marc MERLIN)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:34:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <14994.42843.580459.669272@anthem.wooz.org>; from barry@digicool.com on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:20:27PM -0500
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net> <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl> <14994.42843.580459.669272@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <20010220203457.C4554@magic.merlins.org>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:20:27PM -0500, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:
>     F> The explanation is here; python2.0 does not have the right
>     F> license for Debian. Consequence: mailman is currently not
>     F> compatible with debian.
> 
>     F> http://lists.debian.org/debian-python-0102/msg00028.html
> 
> Two comments, which I'm not directing at the Debian folks because they
> need to make their own decisions, and because I don't know who at
> Debian to direct these to.
> 
> First, I don't buy the backwards compatibility argument.  Yes, some
> code broke, but it was broken anyway (people using undocumented APIs).
> The broken code is easily fixed.

You're right and that's not it.
For instance  bash2 wasn't fully  compatible with  bash1, but while  Red Hat
never had the balls  to push bash2 as default bash,  debian did, even though
it broke a few things that were really errors in the user scripts.

The problem is that if the license  was categorized as non free according to
Debian's free  software guidelines, they  fork the  package so that  you can
decide to run python from debian main, or python2 from non-free.
Had they called python2, python, there would  have been no way for a user to
keep the  'free' python if  he/she had non-free  in his/her list  of package
sources.

This is merely a packaging issue.

Marc

PS: don't flame me about what's free  or non free, I know nothing about this
specific  issue, I'm  just explaining  what  the technical  reasons for  the
package split would be.
-- 
Microsoft is to operating systems & security ....
                                      .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
  
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   |   Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key


From barry@digicool.com  Wed Feb 21 04:37:17 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:37:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
References: 
 <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>
 <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>
 <14994.42843.580459.669272@anthem.wooz.org>
 <20010220203457.C4554@magic.merlins.org>
Message-ID: <14995.17917.807172.930808@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "MM" == Marc MERLIN  writes:

    MM> PS: don't flame me about what's free or non free, I know
    MM> nothing about this specific issue, I'm just explaining what
    MM> the technical reasons for the package split would be.

Thanks, very helpful!

-Barry


From claw@kanga.nu  Wed Feb 21 06:33:38 2001
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:33:38 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Direct injection into hold queue
Message-ID: <13260.982737218@kanga.nu>

I've come up with a slightly non-standard need:

  I need to able to side-line messages in the hold queue (basically
  take them out of the queue without approving/rejecting/discarding
  them), and to later put them back into the hold queue so I can
  then do whatever to them.

Is there an elegant way to do this (I didn't see anything obvious)?

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From barry@digicool.com  Wed Feb 21 14:59:47 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:59:47 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Fwd: URGENT: Something in message is breaking
 mailman!]
References: <3A92F3EF.66784F9C@collectivetech.com>
 <14994.64648.127065.55403@anthem.wooz.org>
 <3A93CE25.B52087FC@collectivetech.com>
Message-ID: <14995.55267.510346.407099@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "KA" == Kambiz Aghaiepour  writes:

    KA> Simple!  Thanks. That does the trick. Now I need to send the
    KA> postmaster of the site generating the broken headers an email
    KA> letting them know of the problem.

Cool.

    KA> Do you think this change in Netscape.py will be made
    KA> permanently for future releases of Mailman?

If there is a 2.0.2 release, it'll be part of it.  The patch is
unnecessary for 2.1.

-Barry


From chris@greatbridge.com  Wed Feb 21 13:32:44 2001
From: chris@greatbridge.com (Chris Ryan)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:32:44 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman + PostgreSQL
Message-ID: <3A93C37C.7A3928C4@greatbridge.com>

Hello all,

	I've been using Mailman on our web site for open source development of
"serious business software." http://www.greatbridge.org/. We are
interested in seeing Mailman have a PostgreSQL database back end (and
further in the future PHP front end web tools.)  I have been given
permission to start working on this as soon as I have completed my
current project (should be done this week).

	I've started to familiarize myself with the general flow of Mailman. I
have not had a chance to get into the current data handling classes but,
correct me if i'm wrong, I believe modifying the code to use a database
should be fairly contained. In the process of doing this I want to do
everything in a such a manner that is best for contributing back to the
Mailman project.

	Any feedback anyone can offer on this subject would be wonderful.
Thanks in advance.

Chris Ryan
chris@greatbridge.com


From ricardo@rixhq.nu  Wed Feb 21 19:51:49 2001
From: ricardo@rixhq.nu (Ricardo Kustner)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:51:49 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman + PostgreSQL
In-Reply-To: <3A93C37C.7A3928C4@greatbridge.com>; from chris@greatbridge.com on Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 08:32:44AM -0500
References: <3A93C37C.7A3928C4@greatbridge.com>
Message-ID: <20010221205149.B20988@rix.rixhq.nu>

On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 08:32:44AM -0500, Chris Ryan wrote:
> 	I've been using Mailman on our web site for open source development of
> "serious business software." http://www.greatbridge.org/. We are
> interested in seeing Mailman have a PostgreSQL database back end (and
> further in the future PHP front end web tools.)  I have been given
> permission to start working on this as soon as I have completed my
> current project (should be done this week).
> 	I've started to familiarize myself with the general flow of Mailman. I
> have not had a chance to get into the current data handling classes but,
> correct me if i'm wrong, I believe modifying the code to use a database
> should be fairly contained. In the process of doing this I want to do
> everything in a such a manner that is best for contributing back to the
> Mailman project.

I think it would be great if you could start this up... but please consider creating
the database interface in such a way that it should be easy replace it with
other database engines (LDAP, mysql and anything else available in Python).
If you check out the archives, this has been discussed before but as far as I
know we didn't see any real results yet... 
Btw, if you look at the Mailman designnotes you can see that the centralizeddatabase
has been planned for 3.0 ... maybe it's a good moment to start discussing it anyway.

Ricardo.

--


From John Morton   Wed Feb 21 22:02:43 2001
From: John Morton  (John Morton)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:02:43 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman + PostgreSQL
In-Reply-To: <3A93C37C.7A3928C4@greatbridge.com>
References: <3A93C37C.7A3928C4@greatbridge.com>
Message-ID: <200102212202.LAA30429@vesta.plain.co.nz>

On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:32:44 -0500 Chris Ryan  wrote=
:

> Hello all,
>=20
> =09I've been using Mailman on our web site for open source development of
> "serious business software." http://www.greatbridge.org/. We are
> interested in seeing Mailman have a PostgreSQL database back end (and
> further in the future PHP front end web tools.)  I have been given
> permission to start working on this as soon as I have completed my
> current project (should be done this week).
>=20
> =09I've started to familiarize myself with the general flow of Mailman. I
> have not had a chance to get into the current data handling classes but,
> correct me if i'm wrong, I believe modifying the code to use a database
> should be fairly contained. In the process of doing this I want to do
> everything in a such a manner that is best for contributing back to the
> Mailman project.
>=20
> =09Any feedback anyone can offer on this subject would be wonderful.
> Thanks in advance.

Rather than hack in postgreSQL support directly, it's probably a better
idea to wrap the whole data storage system in an abstraction layer,
provide a couple of standard implementations (ie pickled objects and the
postgreSQL system you're looking into to) and allow people to integrate
their own storage system to suit their needs. Personally I want to place
Mailman's data into a ZODB so I can get seemless Zope intergration.=20

Zpatterns might be a good place to start, as far as a data abstraction
layer goes.

http://www.zope.org/Members/pje/Wikis/ZPatterns/HomePage

John






From davek@mail.commercedata.com  Wed Feb 21 23:20:40 2001
From: davek@mail.commercedata.com (Dave Klingler)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:20:40 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman + PostgreSQL
In-Reply-To: <200102212202.LAA30429@vesta.plain.co.nz> from "John Morton" at Feb 22, 2001 11:02:43 AM
Message-ID: <200102212320.QAA02618@mail.commercedata.com>

Hi Chris.  

On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:32:44 -0500 Chris Ryan  wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> 	I've been using Mailman on our web site for open source development of
> "serious business software." http://www.greatbridge.org/. We are
> interested in seeing Mailman have a PostgreSQL database back end (and
> further in the future PHP front end web tools.)  I have been given
> permission to start working on this as soon as I have completed my
> current project (should be done this week).

I think that's very cool.  I've been trying to work toward that myself.  I
brought up Mailman on a virtfs machine (virtfs is a script package that uses
chroot to create virtual servers) last month in conjunction with two websites
based on PHP, PostgreSQL, and Perl.  The finished product was a bear to get
working, and I'm hoping to go back and replace a fair portion of it with a 
PHP/Postgres backend.  Mailman is not very friendly to chrooted environments
because the configuration information is hard-coded into so many different
scripts.

My suggestion would be to use an abstraction layer similar to the one that
Tim Perdue uses on SourceForge with PHP, if not the one he actually uses.
Tim was able to switch SourceForge and PHPBuilder over from MySQL to 
Postgres pretty quickly, and I found that impressive.

I haven't begun this process yet.  I'll be interested to follow what you're
doing, and maybe at some point I'll be able to help out.  Chuq has also 
mentioned working on a database backend, possibly with Apple's Enterprise
Object Frameworks.

I've thought about just working my way through the scripts in the cgi-bin
directory, giving them all the same names and arguments but rewriting them
in PHP or Python to use Postgres instead.  I hate to mix PHP with Python, but 
PHP does seem to work very nicely for web apps.  I'd just be grateful to have 
it all working reliably instead of breaking every time I need to change 
something.  I've got something going on right now that causes my webscripts
to go off to lunch without leaving anything in the error log.  Darn it.
  
> 	I've started to familiarize myself with the general flow of Mailman. I
> have not had a chance to get into the current data handling classes but,
> correct me if i'm wrong, I believe modifying the code to use a database
> should be fairly contained. In the process of doing this I want to do
> everything in a such a manner that is best for contributing back to the
> Mailman project.

There's a nice list of all the PHP Postgres functions at 
www.php.net/manual/en/ref.pgsql.php (in about the middle of the page).  I had
looked at that list and thought that it made a nice start for an abstraction
layer, whether written in PHP or Python.

Good luck!
Dave Klingler


From barry@digicool.com  Wed Feb 21 23:33:20 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:33:20 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216164232.03293950@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14996.20544.297076.343250@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> Since I deleted the templates/en dir I had created to test the
    RJ> fallback, newlang wouldn't work, because there's no en
    RJ> directory to copy to the new list...  It needs to catch the
    RJ> fact that ok_langs is empty before the loop that prints which
    RJ> languages were installed runs, otherwise the status message
    RJ> looks stupid :-).

Okay, I've fixed those in my working copy.

    RJ> Perhaps instead of saying "language not supported" it say "No
    RJ> template directory for language."

Good point, I've made that change.
    
    RJ> Newlang also has a nasty habit of leaving the list locked if
    RJ> anything goes wrong.

Arg!  Okay, I've added the necessary armor to it and rmlang (although
I'm not sure the list needs to be locked for rmlang).

    RJ> w.r.t your comment about needing to look at the call to
    RJ> HTMLFormatter. You do need to init it, because
    RJ> mlist._template_path is used by it, and by newlang, and it's
    RJ> *not* defined in MailList; HTMLFormatter adds it to the object
    RJ> when it runs.

I'm not sure why _template_dir is a temporary attribute (i.e. starts
with an _ so it doesn't persist).  Seems to me the proper fix is to
either make _template_dir a permanent attribute, or simply access it
via a method and calculate it on the fly.  Actually, in light of the
below, that might be the right thing.
    
    RJ> People need to install EN support into each list they own.
    RJ> Which they can do by hand, or with newlang.

    RJ> Anyone that's already done any language changes though will
    RJ> find their local language sitting in the english
    RJ> subdir... Either way, there's copius notage in the readme
    RJ> necessary to explain where things are going and why...

We have to make it so that if a MM2.0 user upgrades and never cares
about multilingual support, things Just Keep Working without anything
more they explicitly need to do.

This means either our upgrade script sets things up minimally, or we
make sure everything falls back to the existing templates if en is
never installed.  Your second point implies then that if they've made
their own language mods to those templates, that language will be the
default (and the list config will look a bit strange when it says that
they're using English as the default language).

Any opinions?  Do we need to create the en subdir upon upgrade or can
we use any existing templates as a fallback?

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Wed Feb 21 23:33:39 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:33:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216211533.04a80cc0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14996.20563.478487.947229@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> Barry, just in case you haven't done it, and it helps you, I
    RJ> uploaded a patch to 103852, which is a diff against my current
    RJ> snapshot; it's all the imports, plus the typo in newlang.

Thanks, that does help!


From jarrell@vt.edu  Wed Feb 21 23:53:40 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:53:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
In-Reply-To: <14996.20544.297076.343250@anthem.wooz.org>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216164232.03293950@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010221185038.02d37130@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 06:33 PM 2/21/01 -0500, you wrote:

>Any opinions?  Do we need to create the en subdir upon upgrade or can
>we use any existing templates as a fallback?

Well, if we install the "en" directory, the other problems won't happen (ref. the
other message I posted where I tracked down why GetConfig was blowing up
on my older lists; it tries to do an index on a null list, because there are no
subdirs on the list).  I'm thinking it's cleaner to just force the template files
into an en directory.  Technically, the current officially supported language
is english, so that's not bad.  Even if they made their existing files be swahili,
they'll still work, they'll just show up as english.  People who have been hacking
in their own language support probably are smart enough to look at the readme
for a comment about adding new languages, or can figure it out...



From barry@digicool.com  Thu Feb 22 00:03:13 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:03:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216164232.03293950@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010221185038.02d37130@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14996.22337.657025.978147@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    >> Any opinions?  Do we need to create the en subdir upon upgrade
    >> or can we use any existing templates as a fallback?

    RJ> Well, if we install the "en" directory, the other problems
    RJ> won't happen (ref. the other message I posted where I tracked
    RJ> down why GetConfig was blowing up on my older lists; it tries
    RJ> to do an index on a null list, because there are no subdirs on
    RJ> the list).

I've got a workaround for that but still, you might be right to just
force an `en' subdir on upgrade.

-Barry


From alessio@sevenseas.org  Thu Feb 22 09:31:13 2001
From: alessio@sevenseas.org (Alessio Bragadini)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:31:13 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-i18n] Testing multilanguages
In-Reply-To: <14996.20544.297076.343250@anthem.wooz.org>; from barry@digicool.com on Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 06:33:20PM -0500
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> <5.0.2.1.2.20010216164232.03293950@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> <14996.20544.297076.343250@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <20010222113113.N702@abulafia.sevenseas.org>

We are all very excited (well, at least my friends and me are :-)
about the i18n features upcoming. Since most of the translations are
complete, how can we help? Is it possible to test them? Not only
because we cannot wait (as usual) but mainly because it could be
useful to add some extra eyes on it.

Sorry if it's a FAQ, I've been on the list only for a while.

-- 
Alessio F. Bragadini		alessio@sevenseas.org

La Citta` Invisibile: notizie e dibattiti per i cittadini della Rete
http://www.citinv.it


From claw@kanga.nu  Thu Feb 22 18:54:47 2001
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:54:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman + PostgreSQL
In-Reply-To: Message from Chris Ryan 
 of "Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:32:44 EST." <3A93C37C.7A3928C4@greatbridge.com>
References: <3A93C37C.7A3928C4@greatbridge.com>
Message-ID: <30049.982868087@kanga.nu>

On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:32:44 -0500 
Chris Ryan  wrote:

> Hello all, I've been using Mailman on our web site for open source
> development of "serious business software." 
> http://www.greatbridge.org/. We are interested in seeing Mailman
> have a PostgreSQL database back end (and further in the future PHP
> front end web tools.)  I have been given permission to start
> working on this as soon as I have completed my current project
> (should be done this week).

I would start out by reading the traffic among Chuq, Barry, and I at
the end of last year and early this year on proposed V3
architectures.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From Alok.Malik@metamorgs.com  Mon Feb 26 12:43:08 2001
From: Alok.Malik@metamorgs.com (Alok Malik)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:13:08 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] confirm 227131
Message-ID: <3BB00261FED5D41183FD00104B93C2604D6A91@exdel01.del.mgsl.com>

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C09FF1.AC06B7B0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"


------_=_NextPart_001_01C09FF1.AC06B7B0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"






confirm 227131





------_=_NextPart_001_01C09FF1.AC06B7B0--


From darrell@grumblesmurf.net  Mon Feb 26 22:24:40 2001
From: darrell@grumblesmurf.net (Darrell Fuhriman)
Date: 26 Feb 2001 14:24:40 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] two thoughts on the archiver
Message-ID: 

In 2.0.1 pipermail.py takes any user-included Reply-To header and
uses that the address of the sender in the archives.

In other words, if I post a message to list that looks like this:

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:03:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Darrell Fuhriman 
Subject: something really neat!
To: moderated-list@grumblesmurf.net
Reply-To: not-moderated-list@elsewhere.com

in the Archives, this gets re-written to be:

Darrell Fuhriman 

I maintain that this behavior is incorrect.

For instance, I just started a moderated, announce-only list.  I
would like to give the poster the option of redirecting followups
for discussion to another list.

I'm happy to write a patch to change the behavior, but I'd like
to know what folks think the correct behavior should be.

I think that including the Reply-To as a separate header is the
appropriate thing to do, but I'm soliciting other opinions.

Secondly, archiving is a big old pig and slows down list
processing.  Would it be possible to re-write the code so that
the archiver forks off?  Once again, I'm willing to do it, but I
want to make sure that people will be happy with the design.

Darrell


From barry@digicool.com  Mon Feb 26 22:29:37 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:29:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] two thoughts on the archiver
References: 
Message-ID: <15002.55505.808803.310440@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "DF" == Darrell Fuhriman  writes:

    DF> In 2.0.1 pipermail.py takes any user-included Reply-To header
    DF> and uses that the address of the sender in the archives.

    DF> In other words, if I post a message to list that looks like
    DF> this:

    | Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:03:03 -0800 (PST)
    | From: Darrell Fuhriman 
    | Subject: something really neat!
    | To: moderated-list@grumblesmurf.net
    | Reply-To: not-moderated-list@elsewhere.com

    DF> in the Archives, this gets re-written to be:

    DF> Darrell Fuhriman 

    DF> I maintain that this behavior is incorrect.

Agreed.

    DF> For instance, I just started a moderated, announce-only list.
    DF> I would like to give the poster the option of redirecting
    DF> followups for discussion to another list.

    DF> I'm happy to write a patch to change the behavior, but I'd
    DF> like to know what folks think the correct behavior should be.

I think that it should use the address provided in the From: line.  A
patch would be great.

    DF> I think that including the Reply-To as a separate header is
    DF> the appropriate thing to do, but I'm soliciting other
    DF> opinions.

    DF> Secondly, archiving is a big old pig and slows down list
    DF> processing.  Would it be possible to re-write the code so that
    DF> the archiver forks off?  Once again, I'm willing to do it, but
    DF> I want to make sure that people will be happy with the design.

No need.  Things are going to be much different in 2.1.  Archiving is
no longer in the critical path for general list delivery.

-Barry


From seidl@vex.cs.colorado.edu  Tue Feb 27 15:17:10 2001
From: seidl@vex.cs.colorado.edu (Matthew Seidl)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:17:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug/Request for change
Message-ID: <200102271517.f1RFHBI00536@vex.cs.colorado.edu>

Over the weekend one of the uesers on one of my lists had both their
DNS servers go down.  This means that any attempt to deliver mail to
them had a 4 minute DNS failure timeout.

This went fine, till about 5 messages for them accumulated in the
qfiles directory.  Then each qrunner that started up would try those 5
messages first, fail, and exceed its 15 minutes of runtime.  This
cycle would repeat forever.

It seems to me that qrunner should at least try messages in a most
recent first order, instead of oldest first.  But that might still
lead to starvation of some messages in the queue.

A better approach would be for the qrunner to leave a file around that
said where in the queue it had gotten to, so the next qrunner process
could start on the next message in the queue.  This should lead to the
whole queue being serviced before any elements are serviced a second
time.  Does this make sense?

I'm too new to mailman and python to take a stab at this myself, but I
wanted to report the bug.  If others agree that its a bug, and no one
else takes a shot at it, I might.  But it will require some
non-trivial modifications to qrunner I believe.

-=- Matthew L. Seidl 		email: seidl@cs.colorado.edu                =-=
=-= Graduate Student 			Project . . . What Project?	    -=-
-=- http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~seidl/Home.html          -Morrow Quotes     =-=
=-= http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~seidl/lawsuit                               -=-


From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 27 15:26:31 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:26:31 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug/Request for change
References: <200102271517.f1RFHBI00536@vex.cs.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <15003.50983.82107.47925@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "MS" == Matthew Seidl  writes:

    MS> It seems to me that qrunner should at least try messages in a
    MS> most recent first order, instead of oldest first.  But that
    MS> might still lead to starvation of some messages in the queue.

The easiest fix is to add a `shuffle' (random-ish sort) of the files
found in the qfile directory.  If you're using Python 2.0, you could
add a couple of lines to main() in qrunner to call random.shuffle() on
the files returned by os.listdir().  random.shuffle() isn't in Python
1.5.2 though, so if you're using that version, you'll need to grow
your own.

Although Mailman 2.1 will work very different in many ways, it will
utilize random.shuffle() to improve the chances that at least every
file will get an equal look.

-Barry


From chris@greatbridge.com  Tue Feb 27 15:56:04 2001
From: chris@greatbridge.com (Chris Ryan)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:56:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Problems with latest CVS version
Message-ID: <3A9BCE14.7471B94A@greatbridge.com>

I setup the latest of mailman from cvs yesterday and I'm having some
difficulty getting it all working.

My first problem was with /scripts/mailcmd on line 49:

print >> sys.stderr 'Mailman error: mailcmd got bad listname: %s\n%s' \

                   ^ -- missing comma after sys.stderr

I also had a problem with the mimelib import where everything worked
from from the command line but wouldn't work from the cron or when
sendmail called the wrapper commands. I fixed this by creating a soft
link:
$ ln -s /usr/local/lib/python2.0/site-packages/mimelib
/home/mailman/Mailman/mimelib

The problem I'm currently having now is also in mailcmd and mailowner
with the following error:

mailcmd(12300):   File "/home/mailman/scripts/mailcmd", line 69, in ?
mailcmd(12300):      main()
mailcmd(12300):   File "/home/mailman/scripts/mailcmd", line 53, in main
mailcmd(12300):      msg = Message.Message(sys.stdin)
mailcmd(12300): TypeError :  too many arguments; expected 1, got 2

I looked into it and found that Mailman.Message.Message inherited from
mimelib.Message.Message had __init__(self) and no other means of parsing
the actual message. I would think that somewhere Parser should be used
to parse the message but I'm not sure where or how to maintain the
Mailman.Message.Message functionality that was added in the inheritance.

Does anyone know how this should be fixed or what I did wrong? I have
the latest of mimelib 0.2 installed.

Chris Ryan
chris@greatbridge.com


From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 27 16:00:27 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:00:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Problems with latest CVS version
References: <3A9BCE14.7471B94A@greatbridge.com>
Message-ID: <15003.53019.618520.413213@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "CR" == Chris Ryan  writes:

    CR> Does anyone know how this should be fixed or what I did wrong?
    CR> I have the latest of mimelib 0.2 installed.

I'd say wait until the next huge round of checkins.  I've got lots of
fixes for cvs problems waiting in the wings.

-Barry


From chris@greatbridge.com  Tue Feb 27 16:51:16 2001
From: chris@greatbridge.com (Chris Ryan)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:51:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Problems with latest CVS version
References: <3A9BCE14.7471B94A@greatbridge.com> <15003.53019.618520.413213@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <3A9BDB04.1259673D@greatbridge.com>

Do you have a timeframe on when the next big commit is going to be?

Thanks in advance.

Chris Ryan
chris@greatbridge.com

"Barry A. Warsaw" wrote:
> 
> >>>>> "CR" == Chris Ryan  writes:
> 
>     CR> Does anyone know how this should be fixed or what I did wrong?
>     CR> I have the latest of mimelib 0.2 installed.
> 
> I'd say wait until the next huge round of checkins.  I've got lots of
> fixes for cvs problems waiting in the wings.
> 
> -Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 27 16:54:19 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:54:19 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Problems with latest CVS version
References: <3A9BCE14.7471B94A@greatbridge.com>
 <15003.53019.618520.413213@anthem.wooz.org>
 <3A9BDB04.1259673D@greatbridge.com>
Message-ID: <15003.56251.42126.146665@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "CR" == Chris Ryan  writes:

    CR> Do you have a timeframe on when the next big commit is going
    CR> to be?

Sometime today or tomorrow.


From claw@kanga.nu  Wed Feb 28 03:11:30 2001
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:11:30 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug/Request for change
In-Reply-To: Message from Matthew Seidl 
 of "Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:17:10 MST." <200102271517.f1RFHBI00536@vex.cs.colorado.edu>
References: <200102271517.f1RFHBI00536@vex.cs.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <2618.983329890@kanga.nu>

On Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:17:10 -0700 
Matthew Seidl  wrote:

> Over the weekend one of the uesers on one of my lists had both
> their DNS servers go down.  This means that any attempt to deliver
> mail to them had a 4 minute DNS failure timeout.

> This went fine, till about 5 messages for them accumulated in the
> qfiles directory.  Then each qrunner that started up would try
> those 5 messages first, fail, and exceed its 15 minutes of
> runtime.  This cycle would repeat forever.

> It seems to me that qrunner should at least try messages in a most
> recent first order, instead of oldest first.  But that might still
> lead to starvation of some messages in the queue.

You are attempting to solve problems with an incoprrectly configured
MTA by changing Mailman.  REconfigure your MTA to not do DNS
verifications on messages received from your list server (likely
localhost).

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From blalor@hcirisc.cs.binghamton.edu  Thu Feb  1 17:01:17 2001
From: blalor@hcirisc.cs.binghamton.edu (Brian Lalor)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:01:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] encrypting list reminders
Message-ID: 

I'm not subscribed to the list; please CC me on any replies.

The topic of plaintext passwords sent out each month as part of the
reminder process came up on the GnuPG mailing list today.  The below
conversation extolls the virtues of this method and how it balances the
user experience and ease of administration with the insecurity of the
method.

I'd like to suggest that encryption of the password reminders be
implemented.  It would be as "simple" as grafting in GnuPG with mailman
and keeping the user's public key and associated key id stored along with
their email address.  This would allow mailman to encrypt these
administriva and have the best of all worlds.

Additionally, messages could be signed automatically; this could be *all*
messages sent from the list, or just administrative messages.

The more I think about it, the better this idea is! :-)

B

_____________________________________________________________________________
B r i a n  L a l o r                         blalor@hcirisc.cs.binghamton.edu
http://hcirisc.cs.binghamton.edu/~blalor     Spam me not.
   To get my pgp key, put "get pgp key" in the subject of your message

My Dad used to say I have deceptive quickness.  I'm slower than I look.



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:44:28 -0600 (CST)
From: Frank Tobin 
To: Dan Harkless 
Cc: gnupg-users@gnupg.org
Subject: Re: gnupg.org mailing list memberships reminder

Dan Harkless, at 18:58 -0800 on Wed, 31 Jan 2001, wrote:

    Gotta love a mailing list devoted to email security that sends your password
    to you in cleartext once a month whether you like it or not.  I assume
    there's still no way to turn this off in mailman?  (I last asked a few years
    ago.)

First of all, the mailing list is not devoted to email security.  Anyone
who thinks OpenPGP is limited to email needs to re-think what it's good
for.

When it comes to public mailing lists, the most important thing is to have
the least frustration for the end users and easiest management for the
administration.  While it does have the offset of lowering security, I
feel that in the end it provides for a much better experience of the
majority of end-users and administration to have monthly reminders.

There are multiple levels of security, and your email-subscriptions to
public mailing lists should really rank way down at the bottom of the
list.

-- 
Frank Tobin		http://www.uiuc.edu/~ftobin/

_______________________________________________
Gnupg-users mailing list
Gnupg-users@gnupg.org
http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users



From marc_news@valinux.com  Thu Feb  1 20:05:33 2001
From: marc_news@valinux.com (Marc MERLIN)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:05:33 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Little bug in Mailman/Default.py
Message-ID: <20010201120533.A24356@marc.merlins.org>

The comments say:
# 0 means do nothing
# 1 means disable and send admin a report,
# 2 means nuke'em (remove) and send admin a report,
# 3 means nuke 'em and don't report (whee:)
DEFAULT_AUTOMATIC_BOUNCE_ACTION = 2

The problem  is that the comments  are incorrect, 2 is  actually disable and
don't notify me

I'm changing this to 3 (which really is nuke'm and send admin a report), but
now I have the following problem:
Due to  a mail problem, the  archiver Email address for  sourceforge bounced
for  a  little  while. While  we  thought   it  caused  the  address  to  be
unsubscribed from some lists, we simply mass-resubscribed the address to all
the lists.

Turns out  that the address was  simply disabled, so we  didn't fix anything
and it's still disabled and many lists have been losing archives for about a
month now :-(

I am looking at unsubscribing the archiver Email from all the lists and then
resubscribing it,  but is there  some script that  would allow me  to easily
switch subscriber's flags from the command line (test and set would be ideal
although dumpdb already kind of allows me to test)

Thanks
Marc
-- 
Microsoft is to operating systems & security ....
                                      .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
  
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   |   Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key


From mentor@alb-net.com  Thu Feb  1 21:22:52 2001
From: mentor@alb-net.com (Mentor Cana)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:22:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] minor archive problem after upgrade..
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I think it is true that the "reply_goes_to_list" decides(indirectly) if the
sender's e-mail is displayed in the archives or the list e-mail addresses [as
described below]. Actually, my experiment showed that if the Reply-To:
field is present in the messages it is used to set the addresses in the
archives. Given that "reply_goes_to_list" will set Reply-To: to list's
address, that is the address to show up in the archives.

Question: Is this as per design? My understanding is that the
"reply_goes_to_list" should not be the deciding maker on whether sender's
e-mail address shows in the archives or not. There are other setting to
decide about this.

Any comments?!

thanks,
Mentor

On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, at 08:42, D.J. Atkinson wrote:
> I'd guess it's related to the setting of "reply_goes_to_list"  [General
> Options page of the list admin interface, described as "Where are replies
> to list messages directed?"] If this is set so that replies default to the
> sender, the archive shows the sender's email address.  If the default
> reply goes to the list, the archive shows the list address.  It seemed
> pretty consistent across the lists I checked.
>
> On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Phydeaux wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, at 04:42, Michael Dunston wrote:
> > > I recently upgraded both Mailman (2.0b5 -> 2.0) and Python (1.42 -> 2.0)
> > > and just noticed that the HTML archives are being created differently.
> > >
> > > In the old system, the individual HTML archived messages listed the
> > > poster's name and email address at the top of the page.  For all messages
> > > after the upgrade, this is now being created as the poster's name with
> > > the list address (instead of the user's email).
> > >
> > >     it was: Tom Smith tsmith@domain.com
> > >     now is: Tom Smith list@listaddress.com
> > >
> > > Is this normal?  Can anyone offer any insight into this?   Thanks in
> > > advance for any enlightenment.
> >
> >IMHO this is NOT just an upgrade problem...
> >
> >I have the same problem on one of my lists, and I am using Python 2.0
> >and initially installed Mailman 2.0 and then upgraded to 2.01. Only one
> >of my numerous lists suffers from this problem.  I tried wiping out the
> >archives and each time they get recreated with the same problem.
> >
> >I just tried creating a new, test, list and it seems to function fine (I
> >used the default options). Does anyone have any idea what is wrong here?
> >
> >reb
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------
> >Mailman-Users maillist  -  Mailman-Users@python.org
> >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> >
>
> --
>        o o o o o o o . . .                                  _______
>       o         _____ _____        ____________________ ____] D D [_||___
>    ._][__n__n___|DD[ [     \_____  |  D.J. Atkinson   | | dj@pcisys.net |
>   >(____________|__|_[___________]_|__________________|_|_______________|
>   _/oo OOOO OOOO oo` 'ooooo ooooo` 'o!o            o!o` 'o!o         o!o`
> -+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+-
> Visit my web page at http://www.pcisys.net/~dj
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Mailman-Users maillist  -  Mailman-Users@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
>



From claw@kanga.nu  Fri Feb  2 04:43:14 2001
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 20:43:14 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] encrypting list reminders
In-Reply-To: Message from Brian Lalor 
 of "Thu, 01 Feb 2001 12:01:17 EST." 
References: 
Message-ID: <13810.981088994@kanga.nu>

On Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:01:17 -0500 (EST) 
Brian Lalor  wrote:

> Additionally, messages could be signed automatically; this could
> be *all* messages sent from the list, or just administrative
> messages.

> The more I think about it, the better this idea is! :-)

Great!  When will your patch be ready>

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From jeb@ocha.net  Fri Feb  2 22:20:43 2001
From: jeb@ocha.net (Jeb Bateman)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:20:43 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug: X-BeenThere on admin messages
In-Reply-To: <20010202170125.71497F068@mail.python.org>; from mailman-developers-request@python.org on Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 12:01:25PM -0500
References: <20010202170125.71497F068@mail.python.org>
Message-ID: <20010202142043.D26901@rye>

[I don't remember seeing this on the current to-do or bug lists the
last time I checked; but if it is already there please disregard...]

The problem is that if someone mistakenly sends a message to the
-admin address when it was supposed to be the list, I would like to
just bounce (resend) their message to the list address.  However, when
I did this today, the message was *silently discarded* by Mailman (not
held for approval, or logged anywhere).

I found out this is because all List headers are also included in
-admin; specifically the following...

X-BeenThere: friends@buyorganic.org

I edited the message before resending again, removing all the list
headers, and it went through fine.  Isn't that X-BeenThere header
false, since it's only been to -admin?  And does it make sense to
included all the List headers in -admin messages anyway?

Thanks,
-jeb



From john.read@newnet-marketing.de  Sat Feb  3 16:19:43 2001
From: john.read@newnet-marketing.de (John Read)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 17:19:43 +0100
Subject: WG: [Mailman-Developers] Bug: X-BeenThere on admin messages
Message-ID: 

hello,
I am surprised about this request. I have always seen the function
of the -admin address for mails entering mailman as THE specific
interface to the
administrator. If they are bounced to the normal address, you have
removed this administrator interface, and subscribers cannot reach
him any more.
>>>The problem is that if someone mistakenly sends a message to the
>>>-admin address when it was supposed to be the list, I would like to
>>>just bounce (resend) their message to the list address.  However, when
>>>I did this today, the message was *silently discarded* by Mailman (not
>>>held for approval, or logged anywhere).


regards
john read


-----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
Von: mailman-developers-admin@python.org
[mailto:mailman-developers-admin@python.org]Im Auftrag von Jeb Bateman
Gesendet: Freitag, 2. Februar 2001 23:21
An: mailman-developers@python.org
Betreff: [Mailman-Developers] Bug: X-BeenThere on admin messages


[I don't remember seeing this on the current to-do or bug lists the
last time I checked; but if it is already there please disregard...]

The problem is that if someone mistakenly sends a message to the
-admin address when it was supposed to be the list, I would like to
just bounce (resend) their message to the list address.  However, when
I did this today, the message was *silently discarded* by Mailman (not
held for approval, or logged anywhere).

I found out this is because all List headers are also included in
-admin; specifically the following...

X-BeenThere: friends@buyorganic.org

I edited the message before resending again, removing all the list
headers, and it went through fine.  Isn't that X-BeenThere header
false, since it's only been to -admin?  And does it make sense to
included all the List headers in -admin messages anyway?

Thanks,
-jeb


_______________________________________________
Mailman-Developers mailing list
Mailman-Developers@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers



From jrsamples@earthlink.net  Mon Feb  5 15:26:02 2001
From: jrsamples@earthlink.net (jrsamples@earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 07:26:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] BE A MILLIONAIRE IN LESS THAN A YEAR!
Message-ID: <200102051526.HAA23572@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

Jerome Kedrowski
3710 W. St Germain #239
St. Cloud, MN 56301
Email jrsamples@earthlink.net



February 3, 2001


This really is worth your valuable time, so...
PLEASE PRINT THIS NOW FOR READING AT YOUR LEASURE, YOU WILL NOT REGREAT IT.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear Friend, 

You can earn $50,000 or more in next the 90 days sending E-mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details. 
Is there a catch? NO!!! There is no catch. Just send your emails; and, You will be on your way to financial 
freedom. 

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TELEVISION: 

Thank you for your time and Interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news Lately. 

Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire 
show to the investigation of the program described below to see, if it really can make people money. 

The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. 
Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the 
program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless, and fun way to make some extra 
money at home. 

The results of this show have been truly remarkable. 
So many people are participating that those involved are doing, much better than ever before. 
Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of lately. 
You will understand once you experience it. 

"HERE IT IS BELOW." 
================================================ 
*** Print This Now (IF YOU HAVE NOT already done it) for Future Reference *** 

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with 
VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 

If you would like to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days! Please read the enclosed Program...THEN 
READ IT AGAIN!!! 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 


THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEYMAKING OPPORTUNITY. 

It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have 
to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've 
been waiting for, THIS IS IT! 

Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This Multi-level e-mail order-marketing 
program work perfectly, 100% of EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of 
this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW! 

The longer you wait, the more savvy people will be taking your business using e-mail. Get what is 
rightfully yours. Program yourself for success and dare to think BIG. 

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard 
Business School, and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% 
and 65% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's. 

This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the U.S., 20% (100,000) made their 
fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics have show that 45 people become 
millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. 

You may have heard this story before, but over the summer, Donald Trump made an appearance on the 
David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to start over from 
scratch. Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good network marketing company and get to 
work. 

The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and dead-panned his response 
"That's why I'm sitting up here; and, you are all sitting out there!" 

With network marketing, you have two sources of income. 

Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made by people you 
introduce to the business. 

Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. 
It means investing time or money once and getting paid again and again and again. In network marketing, it 
also means getting paid for the work of others. 

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-
read everything and gave some thought and study to it. 




My name is Jonathan Rourke. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years 
down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own 
business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends, 
and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to 
make ends meet. 

I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. AT THAT 
MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share the experience in hopes that 
this will change your life FOREVER FINANCIALLY!!! 

In mid December of 1997, I received this program via e-mail. Six months prior to receiving this program, I 
had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, 
in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial 
investment was too much for me to risk to see if they would work or not. One claimed that I would make a 
million dollars in one year... it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it! 

But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they 
just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT !!! After reading it several times, to make 
sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON. 

I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further into debt. After I got a pencil and 
paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. But like most of you I was still a little skeptical 
and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-
725-2161 24-hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the program was LEGAL and 
NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT." 

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my time on-line. The great thing about e-mail is 
that I don't need any money for printing to send out the program, and because all of my orders are fulfilled 
via e-mail, the only expense is my time. I am telling you like it is. I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I 
promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me. 

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13, I had received 26 
orders for REPORT #1. Your goal is to "RECEIVE at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. 
IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" 
My first step in making $50,000 in 90 days was done. 


By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal is to "RECEIVE AT LEAST 100+ 
ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE 
YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL." 
Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By March 1, of 
my e-mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day. 

I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much-needed new car. Please take time to read the attached 
program, 
IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!!! Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. 
This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your 
name in a different place. It won't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money! 

In order for this program to work, you must meet your goal of 20+ orders for REPORT #1, and 100+ orders 
for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!! 

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or 
risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial 
security. 

If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own 
business, consider this a sign. I DID! 

Sincerely, Jonathan Rourke 

PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S
AWESOME! 
------------------------------------------------------
A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: 

By the time you have read the enclosed program, you may have concluded that an amateur could not have 
created such a legal program that works. 

Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for 10 years. Then in 1979 my business 
began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't 
working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced 
the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. 

I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rates...because many of you know from first 
hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.


The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. 
Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the 
ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The 
traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to 
that. 

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO 
RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you 
have ever imagined. 

I should also point out that I would not see a penny of this money, nor anyone else who has provided a 
testimonial for this program. I have already made over 4 MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the 
program after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices that do this program and 
several other programs here and over seas. 

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well 
as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the 
people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of them! Remember 
though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. 

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially 
independent, 
IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! 

******************************************************

THINK ABOUT IT:

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY 
THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the 
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money!
You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders 
come in. IT WORKS! 

Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA 

******************************************************


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU 
THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ 

INSTRUCTIONS: 

This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% 
EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use up to $50,000 or more in the next 90 days. 

Before you say, "BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly 
legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build 
our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to 
recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS 
COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it 
privately in your own home, store, or office. 

This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere: 

This is what you MUST do: 

1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). 

* For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & 
NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, YOUR NAME & RETURN 
ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. 

MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE 
IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! 

* When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four reports. You will need all four reports 
so that you can save them on your computer and resell them.

* Within a few days, you will receive, via e-mail, each of the four reports. 
Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will 
order them from you. 

2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their 
sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out 
on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't 
work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. 

a. Look below for the listing of available reports. 



b. After you've ordered the four reports, take this Advertisement and remove the name and address under 
REPORT #4. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their $50,000! 

c. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4.

d. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.

e. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. 

f. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. 

Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! Copy and paste method works well. 

3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO 
changes to the Instruction portion of this letter. 

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20). You obviously already 
have an Internet Connection and e-mail is FREE! 

To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the 4 reports you purchase will provide you 
with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails, where to find thousands of 
free classified ads and much, much more. 

There are two primary methods of building your downline: 

METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL 

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see 
how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also 
assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. Using a good list, the response could be much better. 
Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with 
this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT 
#1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 
0.5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. 

Those 100 people mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 
orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The 0.5% 
response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That amounts to 10,000 each of $5 bills for you in CASH 
MONEY!!! 

Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000+ $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!! 

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO 
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! 
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF-SENT OUT 100,000 
PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your 
cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-
mail is FREE !!! 

REPORT #2 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing, tell you where to obtain free bulk e-mail 
software and where to obtain e-mail lists. 

METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 

1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. 
Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 
people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the Internet will EASILY get a larger 
response). Also, assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members. 

Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results Below (same as email example): 

1st level-your 10 members with $5.........$50 
2nd level-10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100).......$500 
3rd level-10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000) $5,000 
4th level-10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10k) $50,000 

THIS TOTALS ---------------------------$55,550 

Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruits 10 people each. Think for a 
moment what would happen if they got 20 people to 
participate! Most people get 100's of participants! 

THINK ABOUT IT! 

For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS 
PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with 
YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! 


------------------------------------------ 
AVAILABLE REPORTS 
------------------------------------------ 

*** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** 

Notes: 

- ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT 
CHEQUES NOT ACCEPTED 
- ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL 
- Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper
(IF NOT MORE SO THAT THE BILL CAN'T BE SEEN AGAINST LIGHT) 
- On one of those sheets of paper, include: 
(a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, 
(b) your e-mail address, and 
(c) your name & postal address (as return address in case the post office encounters problems). 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: 
______________________________________________________ 
REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet." 

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

JEROME KEDROWSKI
3710 W. ST GERMAIN APT. 239
ST. CLOUD, MN 56301
______________________________________________________ 
REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail 
on the Internet." 

RAF CALUS
4295 MARTIN DRIVE
BOULDER, CO 80305
______________________________________________________ 
REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the
Internet." 

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

JEANNE QUINN
1119 PORTSMOUTH AVE
GREENLAND, NH 03840
______________________________________________________ 
REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel
Marketing and the Internet." 

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

DONNA MARSH
10520 CAMINITO RIMINI
SAN DIEGO, CA 92129
______________________________________________________ 



About 50,000 new people get online every month! 

******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* 

* TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. 

* Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: 

* When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. 

* ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICES ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. 

* Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE 
SUCCESSFUL! 

* ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! 

******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* 

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: 

If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or sending e-mails 
until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you 
don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. 

Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is 
already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! 

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: 

Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. 
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you 
want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or 
continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate 
from this business! 

Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one 
question..... DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? 
If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 

1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 

2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 

3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE (except for 
bulk mailing cost)! 

4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO 
DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 

5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $20 AND BULK MAILING COST INVESTMENT IS 
YOUR TIME! 

6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! 

7. THIS PROGRAM WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER. 

******* T E S T I M O N I A L S ******* 

This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your 
name in a different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income. I'm living proof that it 
works. It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you. If you do 
choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. 

Steven Bardfield, Portland, OR 
******************************************************

My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. 
Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program, I grumbled to Jody about 
receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and 
percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and 
jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her 
when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me!

Within two weeks, she had received over 50 responses. 
Within 45 days, she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked! I was sure that I had it all 
figured and that it wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Jody in her "hobby." I did have seven 
more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to MLM. 

Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL 
******************************************************


The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, 
and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I 
checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money 
required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in. 

Charles Morris, Esq. 
***************************************************

Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But 
conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I 
wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my 
medium-size post office box crammed with orders! 
For awhile, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money 
this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where 
people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return. 

Paige Willis, Des Moines, IA 
**************************************************

I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of 
course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another 
program. Eleven months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!!! I made more than $41,000 on the 
first try!! 

Violet Wilson, Johnstown, PA 
****************************************************

This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the 
beach and live off the interest on our money. The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if 
you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity. Good luck and 
happy spending! 

Kerry Ford, Centerport, NY 
***************************************************
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD 
TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! 

NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS POWERFUL RESULTS 
______________________________________________________ 



FOR YOUR INFORMATION: 

If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is 
handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1-
(800)827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free 
help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements.

IT IS TOTALLY UP TO YOU HOW!!! 
CAN YOU HANDLE SUCCESS AND ALL THAT MONEY??? 



___________________________________________________________
Under Bills.1618 Title III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered spam as the 
sender includes contact information and a method of removal. This is a one time e-mail transmission. No 
request for removal is necessary





Sincerely,


Jerome Kedrowski





From jamest@math.ksu.edu  Mon Feb  5 21:55:12 2001
From: jamest@math.ksu.edu (James Thompson)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:55:12 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Approval system
Message-ID: 

Hello,

I'm trying to hack e-mail based message approval into mailman (like
majordomo's system)  I've managed to alter the system to include copies of
the mail to be approved with the notice to the list admin.  I've also
discovered that the Approved: header does work.  However I'm seeing the
following issues.....

Majordomo must be manipulating the headers of a message a bit.  The mail
clients elm and pine both add a space between the mails headers and the
first line of the message body.  (as required)  However majordomo seems to
deal with this and still accept the Approved: password if it is the first
line of the message body followed by a blank line.

Also - IIRC when a message is approved majordomo seems to substitute the
original headers from the initial pre-approved message.  So the admin
isn't retyping that initial information over again.

I'm willing and (hopefully :) able to work on email based approvals for
mailman but really don't care to waste my time if others have a better
solution in the works or have no interest in it.  Or if it's already being
developed by others I could lend a hand as I'm dying to get rid of
majordomo ASAP.

Thanks,
James

->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->---<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<
James Thompson    138 Cardwell Hall  Manhattan, Ks   66506    785-532-0561 
Kansas State University                          Department of Mathematics
->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->---<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<




From trey@anvils.org  Tue Feb  6 17:17:56 2001
From: trey@anvils.org (Trey Valenta)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:17:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Feature request: daily rate limitting
Message-ID: <20010206171756.16321.qmail@zipcon.net>

Greetings:

Appologies if this has already been discussed, but some of us think the
ability to have a daily message throttle limit would be nice in mailman.
The idea would be that any messages over the limit would be shoved into
a digest for all subscribers who aren't already subscribed in digest
mode.

Thanks,
trey

-- 
trey valenta trey@anvils.org seattle     (maybe a) random quote--v
To err is human, to moo bovine.


From jeb@freequotes.com  Tue Feb  6 18:39:57 2001
From: jeb@freequotes.com (Jeb Bateman)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 10:39:57 -0800
Subject: WG: [Mailman-Developers] Bug: X-BeenThere on admin messages
In-Reply-To: ; from john.read@newnet-marketing.de on Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 05:19:43PM +0100
References: 
Message-ID: <20010206103957.A30007@rye>

On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 05:19:43PM +0100, John Read wrote:
> I am surprised about this request. I have always seen the function
> of the -admin address for mails entering mailman as THE specific
> interface to the administrator. If they are bounced to the normal
> address, you have removed this administrator interface, and
> subscribers cannot reach him any more.

Of course... I didn't mean the bouncing of -admin would be automatic.
(I just got a message to -admin which should have been sent to the
list, and resent it manually; that's all.)

The bug is basically that Mailman silently discards this email because
of the incorrect X-BeenThere header in -admin messages...

> >>>The problem is that if someone mistakenly sends a message to the
> >>>-admin address when it was supposed to be the list, I would like to
> >>>just bounce (resend) their message to the list address.  However, when
> >>>I did this today, the message was *silently discarded* by Mailman (not
> >>>held for approval, or logged anywhere).

-jeb

PS: Sorry for the delay replying.  
I was out of town for a few days.


From hssuh@csns.snu.ac.kr  Wed Feb  7 00:55:53 2001
From: hssuh@csns.snu.ac.kr (Hwansoo Suh)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:55:53 +0900
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Possible bug in the archives.
Message-ID: <20010207095553.A16146@csns.snu.ac.kr>

I'm running mailman on a Red-hat 6.2 based system.
And I have a problem with the archives of the mailman.

If the number of articles in the archive is odd, subjects
of messages are displayed fine.
But if the # of messages in the archive is even, MIME-encoded subjects
are displayes just as the mime-code.

Well, I guess if you're using single-byte character codes, it'll be all OK.
But for some people who uses double-byte character codes and using MIME
encoding on the subject line, the subjects are all junks of HEX code like
=?EUC-KR?Q?=B9=DD=B5=B5=C3....blahblah..

I guess there's a problem with the Pipermail 0.05

Does anyone know a solution to work out this problem?

Thanks in advance.


From jeb@ocha.net  Wed Feb  7 01:49:31 2001
From: jeb@ocha.net (Jeb Bateman)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:49:31 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Approval system
In-Reply-To: ; from jamest@math.ksu.edu on Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 03:55:12PM -0600
References: 
Message-ID: <20010206174931.E30138@rye>

On Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 03:55:12PM -0600, James Thompson wrote:
> I'm trying to hack e-mail based message approval into mailman (like
> majordomo's system)  I've managed to alter the system to include copies of
> the mail to be approved with the notice to the list admin.  I've also
> discovered that the Approved: header does work.

I was browsing the -users archives today, and found it mentioned
somewhere that Approve.py (or something) already appears to check for
an Approved: header, but it didn't work in testing.  I haven't checked
myself, but that might be the quickest way to work this out...

> Majordomo must be manipulating the headers of a message a bit.

Yeah, majordomo's approved line can be in the body, which may be easy,
but error prone toward revealing a password to the list, (IIRC).

A much more elegant solution would be for Mailman to simply include a
confirmation number (like subscribe confirmations) in the subject of
messages to be approved, and then the admin could simply reply to
approve them (since they're already kept in the ~/data directory
anyway -- Mailman doesn't need a clean copy).

> I'm willing and (hopefully :) able to work on email based approvals for
> mailman but really don't care to waste my time if others have a better
> solution in the works or have no interest in it.  

It's not a big enough problem for me to work on at the moment myself,
but good luck...  Eventually, I would like to see a general verfy
wrapper in Mailman like Listar has, which would make user passwords
optional, (since I don't think people want more passwords), and allows
admins to edit moderated postings, etc.

Also, by the way, does anyone know why Mailman uses TEXTAREA fields to
display postings in the approval interface?  You can't edit them, so
why not just wrap them in 
 tags to read/approve?  (In fact, the
textarea fields create a false impression that they *are* editable...)

-jeb



From Dan Mick   Wed Feb  7 01:50:45 2001
From: Dan Mick  (Dan Mick)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:50:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Approval system
Message-ID: <200102070148.RAA07906@utopia.west.sun.com>

> Also, by the way, does anyone know why Mailman uses TEXTAREA fields to
> display postings in the approval interface?  You can't edit them, so
> why not just wrap them in 
 tags to read/approve?  (In fact, the
> textarea fields create a false impression that they *are* editable...)

textareas give you scrolling, which is useful when the message you're
rejecting has, for example, a 1MB MIME-encoded attachment.  



From jeb@ocha.net  Wed Feb  7 03:08:37 2001
From: jeb@ocha.net (Jeb Bateman)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:08:37 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Approval system
In-Reply-To: <200102070148.RAA07906@utopia.west.sun.com>; from dmick@utopia.west.sun.com on Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 05:50:45PM -0800
References: <200102070148.RAA07906@utopia.west.sun.com>
Message-ID: <20010206190837.A30241@rye>

On Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 05:50:45PM -0800, Dan Mick wrote:

> textareas give you scrolling, which is useful when the message you're
> rejecting has, for example, a 1MB MIME-encoded attachment.  

Except that Mailman already cuts the content down to a pretty short
max size in the texarea anyway, so this would never be an issue...

Also, reading separate scrolling windows is cumbersome compared to
scrolling the main browser window, and takes *more* screen space for
very short messages, not to mention the difficulty in Lynx :( 
Most efficient could be a very concise:


Date:
From:
Subject: These already above?
< Link to full message text >

Configurable
first few 
lines...



Regards,
-jeb


From Dan Mick   Wed Feb  7 03:20:49 2001
From: Dan Mick  (Dan Mick)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:20:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Approval system
Message-ID: <200102070318.TAA13959@utopia.west.sun.com>

> > textareas give you scrolling, which is useful when the message you're
> > rejecting has, for example, a 1MB MIME-encoded attachment.  
> 
> Except that Mailman already cuts the content down to a pretty short
> max size in the texarea anyway, so this would never be an issue...

Not my Mailman.  (That's configurable.)
 
> Also, reading separate scrolling windows is cumbersome compared to
> scrolling the main browser window, and takes *more* screen space for
> very short messages, not to mention the difficulty in Lynx :( 
> Most efficient could be a very concise:
> 
> 
> Date:
> From:
> Subject: These already above?
> < Link to full message text >
> 
> Configurable
> first few 
> lines...
> 


but seeing the exact full headers is very useful to figuring out
the real disposition of the message, at least to me.  *all* headers,
plus *all* message text, is a useful thing (to me).  Yeah, if you
just wanted a few lines, the current display uses more space...but
that quickly turns to a false economy, IMO.



From claw@kanga.nu  Wed Feb  7 06:49:52 2001
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 22:49:52 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Approval system
In-Reply-To: Message from Jeb Bateman 
 of "Tue, 06 Feb 2001 19:08:37 PST." <20010206190837.A30241@rye>
References: <200102070148.RAA07906@utopia.west.sun.com>  <20010206190837.A30241@rye>
Message-ID: <11331.981528592@kanga.nu>

On Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:08:37 -0800 
Jeb Bateman  wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 05:50:45PM -0800, Dan Mick wrote:
>> textareas give you scrolling, which is useful when the message
>> you're rejecting has, for example, a 1MB MIME-encoded attachment.

> Except that Mailman already cuts the content down to a pretty
> short max size in the texarea anyway, so this would never be an
> issue...

The extent that Mailman excerpts the messages it displays is
configurable in mm_cfg.py (I set the limit to 1Gig so that messages
are generally not truncated).  The use of TEXTAREAs allows even a
larger number of messages to be presented for moderator review
withing a visually smaller and more easily navigable web page.

> Also, reading separate scrolling windows is cumbersome compared to
> scrolling the main browser window, and takes *more* screen space
> for very short messages, not to mention the difficulty in Lynx :(
> Most efficient could be a very concise:

I don't disagree -- I also prefer the previous approach, but
understand the more common-case reasons in support of the current
approach.   Frankly, I currently SSH into my list boxes and
run XEmacs across all the held messages before hitting them with the
web moderation interface.  It sucks, badly, but it works (I do a lot
of editing of member posts on a couple of my lists).

I've been idly hacking on a patch which would make edits to a
message in the text area (given that the entire message was
displayed there) be effected on the final message that is cast (ie
moderators get editing rights).  Progress is slow tho as I've not
been able to spend much time on it (an hour every other week leads
to most of that hour being spent figuring out where you got to last
time).

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From George F. Nemeyer" 

Please, please, please, please include a list posting filter configuration
option to have Mailman (politely)  reject mail posted in HTML.  Bounce the
message with a note to post only in plain text, possibly with a blurb on
how to do it with common mailers/browsers. 

You will gain the undying gratitude of countless frustrated mail list
managers, admins, and readers alike; and you will be saving equally
countless number of excess posts by irate readers pleading
with/admonishing clueless users and the threads thus generated.

This could likely be the single most useful feature Mailman could have:
o  Save bandwidth.
o  Save nerves.
o  Save storage space.
o  Keep out nasty scripts.
o  Promote member harmony.

If by some miracle this is already there someplace, you may slap me silly
and point me to where it is.  Running 2.0beta6 currently.

George Nemeyer
Tigerden Internet Services





From Nigel.Metheringham@InTechnology.co.uk  Mon Feb 12 10:55:24 2001
From: Nigel.Metheringham@InTechnology.co.uk (Nigel Metheringham)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:55:24 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Simplified moderation interface
Message-ID: 

I was away at a conference at the end of last week, not carrying a 
computer or similar, but I did have a Palm and an IRDA capable phone.

This combination is capable of moderating Mailman lists, as long as the 
total number of messages for moderation is at most 3.... after that it 
is unable to handle the size of form data that results (also the 
interface falls apart somewhat because the radio buttons and labels 
become dissociated).

I'm wondering about the possibilities of making am optional slightly 
simpler interface - more like the older Mailman 1 version - where there 
aren't the large text boxes that get submitted back.

Just a thought - this happens pretty rarely for me, and is certainly no 
major issue.

	Nigel.
-- 
[ Nigel Metheringham           Nigel.Metheringham@InTechnology.co.uk ]
[ Phone: +44 1423 850000                         Fax +44 1423 858866 ]
[ - Comments in this message are my own and not ITO opinion/policy - ]




From barry@digicool.com  Mon Feb 12 14:45:16 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:45:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Simplified moderation interface
References: 
Message-ID: <14983.63228.754566.451@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "NM" == Nigel Metheringham
>>>>>  writes:

    NM> I'm wondering about the possibilities of making am optional
    NM> slightly simpler interface - more like the older Mailman 1
    NM> version - where there aren't the large text boxes that get
    NM> submitted back.

I really want to augment the approval workflow with email.  There's a
lot of people for whom moderating through the web is a pain (myself
included :).  I don't think it would be too difficult to come up with
a workable email moderation scheme.

-Barry


From Cenjsh@mstore.cen.hw.ac.uk  Tue Feb 13 08:42:35 2001
From: Cenjsh@mstore.cen.hw.ac.uk (Cenjsh@mstore.cen.hw.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:42:35 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Archives Error
Message-ID: <3A88F37A.BF4AD4FD@mstore.cen.hw.ac.uk>

We tried to run Archive (under Mailman V2.0Beta5) running on Red Hat
Linux V7.0 with the following error message. I'd appreciate it very much
if any of you could shed some light on it. Many thanks. Error message is
as follows:

Bug in Mailman version 2.0beta5

We're sorry, we hit a bug!

If you would like to help us identify the problem, please email a copy
of this page to the webmaster for this site with a
description of what happened. Thanks!

Traceback:

Traceback (innermost last):
  File "/home/mailman/scripts/driver", line 91, in run_main
    module = getattr(pkg, scriptname)
AttributeError: archives





Python information:

     Variable
                                           Value
 sys.version
                 1.5.2 (#1, Aug 25 2000, 09:33:37) [GCC 2.96 20000731
(experimental)]
 sys.executable
                 /usr/bin/python
 sys.prefix
                 /usr
 sys.exec_prefix
                 /usr
 sys.path
                 /usr
 sys.platform
                 linux-i386




Environment variables:

       Variable

Value
 DOCUMENT_ROOT
                      /home/mailman/
 SERVER_ADDR
                      137.195.148.74
 HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING
                      gzip
 SERVER_PORT
                      80
 PATH_TRANSLATED
                      /home/mailman/public/test/
 REMOTE_ADDR
                      137.195.148.47
 SERVER_SOFTWARE
                      Apache/1.3.12 (Unix) (Red Hat/Linux) mod_ssl/2.6.6
OpenSSL/0.9.5a mod_perl/1.24
 GATEWAY_INTERFACE
                      CGI/1.1
 HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE
                      en
 REMOTE_PORT
                      1969
 SERVER_NAME
                      rm13pc3.cen.hw.ac.uk
 HTTP_CONNECTION
                      Keep-Alive
 HTTP_USER_AGENT
                      Mozilla/4.75 [en] (WinNT; U)
 HTTP_ACCEPT_CHARSET
                      iso-8859-1,*,utf-8
 HTTP_ACCEPT
                      image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg,
image/pjpeg, image/png, */*
 REQUEST_URI
                      /mailman/archives/public/test/
 PATH
                      /sbin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin
 QUERY_STRING
 SERVER_PROTOCOL
                      HTTP/1.0
 PATH_INFO
                      /public/test/
 HTTP_HOST
                      rm13pc3.cen.hw.ac.uk
 REQUEST_METHOD
                      GET
 SERVER_SIGNATURE
                      Apache/1.3.12 Server at rm13pc3.cen.hw.ac.uk Port
80
 SCRIPT_NAME
                      /mailman/archives
 SERVER_ADMIN
                      root@localhost
 SCRIPT_FILENAME
                      /home/mailman/cgi-bin/archives
 PYTHONPATH
                      /home/mailman
 HTTP_COOKIE

test:admin=280200000069c2f1883a732800000063373035363634663833333264623636356537656336626332663361366632303965363261633537

---
Jongky Harlim
Computing Services, Heriot-Watt University,
Riccarton, Edinburgh EH14 4AS
Phone: +44 (0)131-451-3268   Fax: +44 (0)131-451-3261
Email: J.S.Harlim@hw.ac.uk



From claw@kanga.nu  Tue Feb 13 17:50:37 2001
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:50:37 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Simplified moderation interface
In-Reply-To: Message from barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
 of "Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:45:16 EST." <14983.63228.754566.451@anthem.wooz.org>
References:   <14983.63228.754566.451@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <7394.982086637@kanga.nu>

On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:45:16 -0500 
Barry A Warsaw  wrote:

> I really want to augment the approval workflow with email.
> There's a lot of people for whom moderating through the web is a
> pain (myself included :).  I don't think it would be too difficult
> to come up with a workable email moderation scheme.



I've been looking at this, and have loosely come to the following
design:

  -- MessageIDs are used to uniquely identify held mesasges, and are
     used in commands to manipulat manipulate the held queue.  Of
     course that means that Mailman will have locally generate and
     add messageID's to any messages received without them (not a
     big problem).

  -- Moderator commands are just messages sent to the -request
     address and targetted at the MessageIDs, something like (using
     the messageID of the message I'm replying to as an
     example):

       approve 14983.63228.754566.451@anthem.wooz.org password bubba
       reject  14983.63228.754566.451@anthem.wooz.org password bubba
       All text found until next recognised command or "QUIT"
       command is used as reason for rejection.  QUIT processing is
       necessary for those cases where the MTA adds a signature to
       evern message (eg my lawyer's system adds a disclaimer to
       every outbound message).
       discard 14983.63228.754566.451@anthem.wooz.org password bubba

  -- A couple simple extentions of the above allow more useful
     features.  First, to get a copy of a message held on the queue:

       send 14983.63228.754566.451@anthem.wooz.org password bubba

     Second, to post an edited copy of a message, just resend the
     edited version of the held message back to the list
     (bounce/redirect) with an Approve:  header:

       Approve: bubba
       Delivery-date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:38:04 -0800
       Received: from localhost [127.0.0.1] 
       	by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian))
       	id 14SjOu-0004BQ-00; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:38:04 -0800
       Delivered-To: claw@kanga.nu
       Received: from kanga.nu [64.1.167.214]
       	by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.5.3)
       	for claw@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:38:04 -0800 (PST)
       Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212])
       	by bush.kanga.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5356E19A9F
       	for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:37:30 -0800 (PST)
       Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] 
       	by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian))
       	id 14SjOM-0003uB-00; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:37:30 -0800
       To: some_list@domain
       Subject: testing
       Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:37:30 -0800
       Message-ID: <15013.982085850@kanga.nu>
       From: J C Lawrence 

       This is the edited message which will be posted.  Any message
       found in the queue which has the same messageID as this
       message will be silently deleted.  Prior to broadcasting this
       message, Mailman will replace the Approve: header with the
       following header:

         X-Moderated: This message has been edited by the list moderator.

       This sentence marks the end of the replacement edited
       message that would be broadcast to the list.
     
-- 
J C Lawrence                                       claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From barry@digicool.com  Thu Feb 15 02:57:12 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:57:12 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
Message-ID: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>

Folks,

As you've probably guessed, I've been quite busy with other things[*]
lately.  But I /have/ been working on Mailman in my spare time.  I'm
now ready to check in some significant changes.  They seem to work
although they've only gone through limited testing, and I have not
even converted my own sites to using this snapshot.  Mostly I want to
checkpoint my CVS and give others a chance to play with the new stuff
and give feedback.

These are mostly architectural changes to the mail delivery subsystem,
along many of the lines that were discussed last year.  My next step
is to finish integrating the I18N stuff.  I'll probably work toward a
release after that and leave rewriting the web subsystem until the
following release.  I'm shooting for a working alpha 2.1 before the
Python conference early next month.

First, all messages internally are now mimelib.Message objects instead
of rfc822.Message objects.  In case you don't know, I've been working
on the side on a spanking new, from scratch Python package to better
handle RFC1341 (MIME) and RFC822 style messages.  I'm pretty happy
with it, and just released version 0.2.  If you plan to run the newest
snapshot of Mailman, you will need to download and install
mimelib-0.2.  For more information see

    http://barry.wooz.org/software/pyware.html

Installation is very easy due to Greg Ward's wonderful distutils
package.  Don't worry though, Mailman 2.1 will come bundled with
mimelib.

As an aside, take a look at ToDigest.py to see how much cleaner
creating MIME and RFC1153 digests is now!  Oh yeah, did I mention our
plain text digests are now RFC1153 compliant? :)

The second major change is the splitting of the qfiles queue into
several sub-queues.  Right now I've got incoming, outgoing, news,
archiver, and `virgin' queues (the latter being for messages conceived
internally by Mailman).  Here's how messages flow in the system:

(mailman) ------> qfiles/virgin -------+
                                       |
                                       v
smtpd ----------+--> qfiles/in -+-> qfiles/out -> smtp
                |               |
cron/gate_news -+               +-> qfiles/news -> nntpd
                                |
				+-> qfiles/arch -> (archiver)

Each qfile directory has an associated qrunner (e.g. IncomingRunner,
OutgoingRunner, NewsRunner, ArchRunner, VirginRunner) which is managed
by a master watchdog (the transformed cron/qrunner).  This is the
third major change: qrunner is now a long running process.  If it
finds that one of its subrunners has exited, it will restart it.  Thus
each subrunner needs no lock, although the master does hold a lock.

Further, it is possible (although as yet not fully tested), to create
more than one qrunner per qfile subdirectory.  It is best to create
2^N such qrunners, since the hash space will be divided up among the
parallel runners.  This should be random enough to allow for improved
performance on clusters or multiproc machines without a lot of
complicated coordination machinery.

This arrangement has another benefit: you could replace any of the
qrunners with your own processes to clear the queues.  The only one
that probably /has/ to be the Mailman qrunner is qfiles/in since
that's what performs the "moderate and munge" phase of message
disposal, and it is the only queue which requires a list lock (well,
ArchRunner does currently, but that's an artifact of the
implementation).  E.g. I could see a completely independent runner for
qfiles/arch to interface with external archivers, or a better, more
highly parallelized runner for the qfiles/out queue.

Notes: the NewsRunner may not work.  I can't tell if my new ISP is
just refusing postings, requires some authorization I'm not aware of,
or if the runner is actually broken.  I'll fix that later.  Also,
there is no separate BounceRunner yet, although there will be.  I know
some of you have thought about other queues, and I don't think it
would be too difficult to squeeze those in.

Each message in the queue is represented by two files, a .msg file
which is simply the plain text of the message in RFC822+envelope
format, and a .db file, the format of which is configurable on a
per-site basis.  Three formats are currently supported, Python
marshals, `ascii' (plaintext key/value pairs), and "bsddb native",
which are hash files as written by the default Python bsddb module.
It isn't difficult to add additional file formats.

Hmm, other than that, there's a few more bounce detectors.  Also, I'm
ditching the crufty md5/crypt munging of passwords and opting for an
sha1 hash always.  However, to support backwards compatibility
(i.e. the list passwords are not kept in plain text), if the sha hash
of the response doesn't match the challenge, we try crypt as a
fallback.

Remember, Python 2.0 is required!

Enjoy,
-Barry

[*] Primarily the Python 2.1 alpha releases, spending a week on a
company retreat, getting ready for the Python conference in Long Beach
March 5-8, and working on "paying gig" stuff, primarily a Berkeley DB
storage implementation for the Zope Object Database.  Anybody else
coming to the Python conference?


From John Morton   Thu Feb 15 03:53:12 2001
From: John Morton  (John Morton)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:53:12 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <200102150353.QAA24100@vesta.plain.co.nz>

On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:57:12 -0500 Barry A. Warsaw  wro=
te:

> Hmm, other than that, there's a few more bounce detectors.  Also, I'm
> ditching the crufty md5/crypt munging of passwords and opting for an
> sha1 hash always.  However, to support backwards compatibility
> (i.e. the list passwords are not kept in plain text), if the sha hash
> of the response doesn't match the challenge, we try crypt as a
> fallback.

Might as well add code to convert the password from the depreciated form
to the current default if one of the fallback methods succeeds, then set
the fallbacks to cascade over crypt, MD5 and plaintext. This way, you can
quitely change to a more trusted hash should your current default
eventually be broken.

John.




From barry@digicool.com  Thu Feb 15 03:59:15 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:59:15 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <200102150353.QAA24100@vesta.plain.co.nz>
Message-ID: <14987.21523.917175.768718@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "JM" == John Morton  writes:

    JM> Might as well add code to convert the password from the
    JM> depreciated form to the current default if one of the fallback
    JM> methods succeeds, then set the fallbacks to cascade over
    JM> crypt, MD5 and plaintext. This way, you can quitely change to
    JM> a more trusted hash should your current default eventually be
    JM> broken.

No can do.  crypt()'s a one-way hash and Mailman doesn't store the
cleartext password (for the list), so there's no way to recover it in
order to convert.

I've thought about storing the list password in the clear.  This would
allow a mail-back option for list owners, but requires for stricter
security in the file system (since the list passwords can be snooped
from the database).

-Barry


From andrewm@connect.com.au  Thu Feb 15 04:12:49 2001
From: andrewm@connect.com.au (Andrew McNamara)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:12:49 +1100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:59:15 CDT."
 <14987.21523.917175.768718@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <20010215041249.667D22870A@wawura.off.connect.com.au>

>    JM> Might as well add code to convert the password from the
>    JM> depreciated form to the current default if one of the fallback
>    JM> methods succeeds, then set the fallbacks to cascade over
>    JM> crypt, MD5 and plaintext. This way, you can quitely change to
>    JM> a more trusted hash should your current default eventually be
>    JM> broken.
>
>No can do.  crypt()'s a one-way hash and Mailman doesn't store the
>cleartext password (for the list), so there's no way to recover it in
>order to convert.

You could convert on the fly: when the user validates correctly, you
temporarily have the clear-text password, and could convert it from
crypt to md5 at this point.

 ---
Andrew McNamara (System Architect)

connect.com.au Pty Ltd
Lvl 3, 213 Miller St, North Sydney, NSW 2060, Australia
Phone: +61 2 9409 2117, Fax: +61 2 9409 2111


From barry@digicool.com  Thu Feb 15 04:28:13 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:28:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.21523.917175.768718@anthem.wooz.org>
 <20010215041249.667D22870A@wawura.off.connect.com.au>
Message-ID: <14987.23261.943503.23584@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "AM" == Andrew McNamara  writes:

    AM> You could convert on the fly: when the user validates
    AM> correctly, you temporarily have the clear-text password, and
    AM> could convert it from crypt to md5 at this point.

Good point!  Dang, why didn't I think of that? :)

-Barry


From John Morton   Thu Feb 15 04:44:59 2001
From: John Morton  (John Morton)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:44:59 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: Re[2]: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14987.21523.917175.768718@anthem.wooz.org>
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <200102150353.QAA24100@vesta.plain.co.nz>,
 <14987.21523.917175.768718@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <200102150444.RAA28736@vesta.plain.co.nz>

On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:59:15 -0500 Barry A. Warsaw  wro=
te:

>=20
> >>>>> "JM" =3D=3D John Morton  writes:
>=20
>     JM> Might as well add code to convert the password from the
>     JM> depreciated form to the current default if one of the fallback
>     JM> methods succeeds, then set the fallbacks to cascade over
>     JM> crypt, MD5 and plaintext. This way, you can quitely change to
>     JM> a more trusted hash should your current default eventually be
>     JM> broken.
>=20
> No can do.  crypt()'s a one-way hash and Mailman doesn't store the
> cleartext password (for the list), so there's no way to recover it in
> order to convert.

Indeed - that's why I was talking about doing it when one of the fallback
methods for authenicating the password succeeds. The list admin has just
supplied you with a password, and you know it's correct because you've
just successfully compared the crypted version (or whatever) with the one
stored. Might as well take the default hash of the password and store that
at the same time.

> I've thought about storing the list password in the clear.  This would
> allow a mail-back option for list owners, but requires for stricter
> security in the file system (since the list passwords can be snooped
> from the database).

Have the site administrator make the call by allowing them to set the
default password storage method themselves, and if it happens to be set
to plain text, have the mail-back option available. This might require
tagging the passwords with their method of encoding, but it should be
possible to convert existing passwords without too much trouble.

Of course, the documentation should recommend SHA-1 is (probably) better
than MD5, which is better than crypt, and that a plaintext password
installation should take special care to protect the mailman install from
snooping.

John




From John Morton   Thu Feb 15 04:50:09 2001
From: John Morton  (John Morton)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:50:09 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: Re[2]: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <20010215041249.667D22870A@wawura.off.connect.com.au>
References: <20010215041249.667D22870A@wawura.off.connect.com.au>
Message-ID: <200102150450.RAA29188@vesta.plain.co.nz>

On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:12:49 +1100 Andrew McNamara =
 wrote:

> >    JM> Might as well add code to convert the password from the
> >    JM> depreciated form to the current default if one of the fallback
> >    JM> methods succeeds, then set the fallbacks to cascade over
> >    JM> crypt, MD5 and plaintext. This way, you can quitely change to
> >    JM> a more trusted hash should your current default eventually be
> >    JM> broken.
> >
> >No can do.  crypt()'s a one-way hash and Mailman doesn't store the
> >cleartext password (for the list), so there's no way to recover it in
> >order to convert.
>=20
> You could convert on the fly: when the user validates correctly, you
> temporarily have the clear-text password, and could convert it from
> crypt to md5 at this point.

That's what I meant :-) Not my day for clarity, it seems.

John



From claw@kanga.nu  Thu Feb 15 05:49:06 2001
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:49:06 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: Message from barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
 of "Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:59:15 EST." <14987.21523.917175.768718@anthem.wooz.org>
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org> <200102150353.QAA24100@vesta.plain.co.nz>  <14987.21523.917175.768718@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <30691.982216146@kanga.nu>

On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:59:15 -0500 
Barry A Warsaw  wrote:

> I've thought about storing the list password in the clear.  This
> would allow a mail-back option for list owners, but requires for
> stricter security in the file system (since the list passwords can
> be snooped from the database).

Don't go there.  The way to handle this, for both asmin and user
passwords is that either an admin or a user may request a new
password, whereupon a confirm token is emailed to their address with
the confirm token embedded in an URL.  They can then visit the URL
thus having (marginally) demonstrated that they are who they say
they are, and set a *NEW* password.

Note: Do not disable the current password prior to the confirm URL
being visited or else the feature can be used as a DoS tool.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From jeb@ocha.net  Thu Feb 15 17:45:10 2001
From: jeb@ocha.net (Jeb Bateman)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:45:10 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org> <200102150353.QAA24100@vesta.plain.co.nz>  <14987.21523.917175.768718@anthem.wooz.org> <30691.982216146@kanga.nu>
Message-ID: <3A8C1594.EB04E634@ocha.net>

J C Lawrence wrote:
> 
> Don't go there.  The way to handle this, for both asmin and user
> passwords is that either an admin or a user may request a new
> password, whereupon a confirm token is emailed to their address with
> the confirm token embedded in an URL.  They can then visit the URL
> thus having (marginally) demonstrated that they are who they say
> they are, and set a *NEW* password.

Exactly.  I'm tired of user passwords being stored in plain text.  It
makes me nervous about security.  Here's an idea...  Mailman's random
passwords can be stored in plain text, no big deal.  However, when a
user specifies their *own* password, that is stored in crypt (or sha1,
if the string is reasonably short).  The authentication code simply
checks the crypted hash of the supplied password first, and then falls
back to a plain text check.  Thus, password reminders still work, since
they simply send the hash of a user's password, and explain that either
the hash or the original password will work...

Some users may even prefer to authenticate with the hash, since it
avoids sending their original password across the net.  (Anyway, I think
I'll work on this for my own sites, at least...)

Thanks,
-jeb

PS: I'm also working on fixing Patch #102426, which is unreliable even
with the necessary string.lower that john reed noted.  It should call a
function to get the list directory path, but is the mlist object
available from maketext(?)


From claw@kanga.nu  Thu Feb 15 17:52:55 2001
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:52:55 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: Message from Jeb Bateman 
 of "Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:45:10 PST." <3A8C1594.EB04E634@ocha.net>
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org> <200102150353.QAA24100@vesta.plain.co.nz> <14987.21523.917175.768718@anthem.wooz.org> <30691.982216146@kanga.nu>  <3A8C1594.EB04E634@ocha.net>
Message-ID: <27713.982259575@kanga.nu>

On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:45:10 -0800 
Jeb Bateman  wrote:


> Some users may even prefer to authenticate with the hash, since it
> avoids sending their original password across the net.  (Anyway, I
> think I'll work on this for my own sites, at least...)

There's a reason I run Mailman's web interface under SSL...

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From scott-brown@home.com  Thu Feb 15 23:59:17 2001
From: scott-brown@home.com (Scott Brown)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:59:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bounce questions
Message-ID: <005f01c097ab$4eeb0200$0401a8c0@ibmpeers>

Two questions:

1.	Whats the difference between a "first" and a "first fresh" in the bounce
log?

2.	And how do I clear the bounce stats for a list??




From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 00:39:55 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:39:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010215193828.07341ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

Yay.  Got python2.0 to compile finally by giving up db support altogether.

Now on to upgrading the test mailman box.

BTW, Barry, the INSTALL file needs to be updated to say that 2.0 is
required, it still calls for 1.5.2, with "Python 2.0 should be fine"...




From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 00:53:40 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:53:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010215195100.0739e5c0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

Ok, I might have missed some previous discussion, cause I've been buried in other 
projects, and only vaugely paying attention to mailman recently. (I've kept mailman-developers,
just haven't actually read each message recently.)  So I might have missed a comment on
something I need to do...

But should 2.1a1 at least mostly work "out of the box" by just checking out the sources,
and doing the usual config make install set?  Because the listinfo display isn't rendering
the %(hostname)s construct anymore, it shows up on the web page.  Plus, there seems to
be a whole buncha templates missing; the admin loging script wants the stuff in the templates/en
directory, which doesn't exist on my machine (and wasn't created by the installer)...

-Ron



From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 01:35:03 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:35:03 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010215201212.02d81ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

And in other news, here in early adopters hell :-)...

Ok, figuring, what the hell, it couldn't hurt, I copied all the .txt and .html files from templates
into a new templates/en directory.  This at least got me the forms back (although
listinfo still won't render %(hostname))

Unfortunately, now, it won't take my admin password anymore.  I tried resetting it,
just in case, with mmsitepass (which, btw, bitches about getpass failing, which I don't
remember happening before, but might have).  mmsitepass does re-write adm.pw, then
complains that the password change failed (and no, it doesn't work on the web form.)
I tried deleting adm.pw, and sure enough, it creates a new one, with a 41 character
hex string in it, then tells me that the password change failed.

Ah, I see why.  In CheckSiteAdminPassword we do a 

challenge = fp.read()[-1]

The comment says this strips off the newline.  Now, my python is week, but doesn't
that actually return *just* the newline.  So naturally the hexdigest of the original
password doesn't match the hexdigest of a \012...

So, shouldn't that be 
challenge = fp.read()[0:-1]

?




From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 01:47:26 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:47:26 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010215204144.02f75ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

More in the wonderful world of 2.1...

Ok, gate_news doesn't work for me right now because python is
invoked -S, so it can't find mimelib to import Parser from.  Should
I have dropped another copy of it in Mailman/pythonlib after installing
it?

BTW, my previous fix to Utils.py fixed the password problem.  The
system lets me into the admin page now.  However, GetConfigInfo goes
blammo...

Traceback:
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/home/mailman/scripts/driver", line 105, in run_main
    main()
  File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 144, in main
    FormatConfiguration(doc, mlist, category, category_suffix, cgidata)
  File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 298, in FormatConfiguration
    form.AddItem(FormatOptionsSection(category, mlist, cgi_data))
  File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 315, in FormatOptionsSection
    options = GetConfigOptions(mlist, category)
  File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 953, in GetConfigOptions
    return mlist.GetConfigInfo()[category]
  File "../Mailman/MailList.py", line 361, in GetConfigInfo
    config_info['general'] = [
ValueError: list.index(x): x not in list



From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 04:30:32 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:30:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215193828.07341ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.44264.751105.178523@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> Yay.  Got python2.0 to compile finally by giving up db support
    RJ> altogether.

Cool.

    RJ> Now on to upgrading the test mailman box.

    RJ> BTW, Barry, the INSTALL file needs to be updated to say that
    RJ> 2.0 is required, it still calls for 1.5.2, with "Python 2.0
    RJ> should be fine"...

Ah, I fixed it in the README but forgot the INSTALL file.  Thanks!



From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 04:34:21 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:34:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215195100.0739e5c0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.44493.174145.627848@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> But should 2.1a1 at least mostly work "out of the box" by just
    RJ> checking out the sources, and doing the usual config make
    RJ> install set?

Probably not.  At the very least you will need to download and install
mimelib:

    http://barry.wooz.org/software/Code/mimelib-0.2.tar.gz

When things get more stable, I'll definitely be bundling mimelib with
Mailman, and hope eventually to get it in the Python standard
library.

Other than that, you really need to consider the current CVS snapshot
an alpha.  The i18n patches are probably not complete, and other
modules may have bugs in them.
    
    RJ> Because the listinfo display isn't rendering the
    RJ> %(hostname)s construct anymore, it shows up on the web page.
    RJ> Plus, there seems to be a whole buncha templates missing; the
    RJ> admin loging script wants the stuff in the templates/en
    RJ> directory, which doesn't exist on my machine (and wasn't
    RJ> created by the installer)...

Yes, I need to fix the installation procedures for setting up the
multilingual support.  I haven't yet done any fresh installs to see
where things are broken.

I'm really glad you're taking a look though!

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 04:43:08 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:43:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215201212.02d81ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.45020.132847.794516@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> And in other news, here in early adopters hell :-)...

Mwah, ha, ha!

    RJ> Ok, figuring, what the hell, it couldn't hurt, I copied all
    RJ> the .txt and .html files from templates into a new
    RJ> templates/en directory.  This at least got me the forms back
    RJ> (although listinfo still won't render %(hostname))

Hmm, it works for me, although I haven't done a fresh install yet.

    RJ> Ah, I see why.  In CheckSiteAdminPassword we do a

    RJ> challenge = fp.read()[-1]

    RJ> The comment says this strips off the newline.  Now, my python
    RJ> is week, but doesn't that actually return *just* the newline.
    RJ> So naturally the hexdigest of the original password doesn't
    RJ> match the hexdigest of a \012...

    | So, shouldn't that be 
    | challenge = fp.read()[0:-1]

Darn, good catch.  That should be "fp.read()[:-1]" -- you don't need
the start index if it's 0.  I just checked in a patch.

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 04:45:41 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:45:41 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215201212.02d81ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.45173.531482.934269@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> I tried resetting it, just in case, with mmsitepass (which,
    RJ> btw, bitches about getpass failing, which I don't remember
    RJ> happening before, but might have).

I bet you didn't enable the termios module when you built Python 2.0.
Fortunately, Python 2.1 is going to be /much/ better about building a
batteries-included interpreter, so stuff like this should go away.
Still, I'm not going to require Python 2.1.  Just edit your
Modules/Setup file to enable termios and your getpass should work.

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 04:50:46 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:50:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215204144.02f75ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.45478.57009.227108@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> Ok, gate_news doesn't work for me right now because python is
    RJ> invoked -S, so it can't find mimelib to import Parser from.
    RJ> Should I have dropped another copy of it in Mailman/pythonlib
    RJ> after installing it?

No, look at the bottom of Defaults.py.  It's suppose to `hack your
path' by appending your Python's default site-packages directory onto
the end of sys.path.  This is normally something that "import site"
does automatically, but the -S flag disables doing the implicit import
of site (because it slows things down considerably and most of the
stuff in site you don't need).

Put this before the import of mimelib.Parser in gate_news:

print >> sys.stderr, sys.path

And look at the last directory on sys.path.  It should be a directory
that contains the mimelib directory.  If not, there's a problem
someplace; either in the distutils install of mimelib, or in the
sys.path hack in Defaults.py.

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 04:53:19 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:53:19 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215204144.02f75ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.45631.157333.90269@anthem.wooz.org>

    | Traceback:
    | Traceback (most recent call last):
    |   File "/home/mailman/scripts/driver", line 105, in run_main
    |     main()
    |   File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 144, in main
    |     FormatConfiguration(doc, mlist, category, category_suffix, cgidata)
    |   File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 298, in FormatConfiguration
    |     form.AddItem(FormatOptionsSection(category, mlist, cgi_data))
    |   File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 315, in FormatOptionsSection
    |     options = GetConfigOptions(mlist, category)
    |   File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 953, in GetConfigOptions
    |     return mlist.GetConfigInfo()[category]
    |   File "../Mailman/MailList.py", line 361, in GetConfigInfo
    |     config_info['general'] = [
    | ValueError: list.index(x): x not in list

Darn, this looks familiar.  I seem to remember seeing this while I was
working on things a few weeks ago, but I don't remember what I did to
fix it.  I guess it's time for me to try a fresh install and see
what's busted.

:/

-Barry


From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 05:10:35 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:10:35 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14988.45478.57009.227108@anthem.wooz.org>
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215204144.02f75ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216000922.04dbeec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 11:50 PM 2/15/01 -0500, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

>>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:
>
>    RJ> Ok, gate_news doesn't work for me right now because python is
>    RJ> invoked -S, so it can't find mimelib to import Parser from.
>    RJ> Should I have dropped another copy of it in Mailman/pythonlib
>    RJ> after installing it?
>
>No, look at the bottom of Defaults.py.  It's suppose to `hack your
>path' by appending your Python's default site-packages directory onto
>the end of sys.path.  This is normally something that "import site"
>does automatically, but the -S flag disables doing the implicit import
>of site (because it slows things down considerably and most of the
>stuff in site you don't need).
>
>Put this before the import of mimelib.Parser in gate_news:
>
>print >> sys.stderr, sys.path

Chuckle.... Ok, now that I know how it's supposed to work, it's obvious why
it doesn't :-).

Move the "from mimelib.Parser import Parser" to *after* the block of code
that loads the Mailman defaults :-).  I.e. don't depend on the hacked path until
after you hacked it...




From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 05:18:21 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:18:21 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14988.45020.132847.794516@anthem.wooz.org>
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215201212.02d81ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216001520.02cf3c30@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 11:43 PM 2/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
>    RJ> Ok, figuring, what the hell, it couldn't hurt, I copied all
>    RJ> the .txt and .html files from templates into a new
>    RJ> templates/en directory.  This at least got me the forms back
>    RJ> (although listinfo still won't render %(hostname))
>
>Hmm, it works for me, although I haven't done a fresh install yet.

Ok, I ought to be doing this in diffs, but that's the wrong machine/window..
But the solution to this problem is line 76 of listinfo.py.  You're setting
variables called "host_name" in the preceding 4-5 lines, then using
the %(hostname)s construct.  If you change it to %(host_name)s,
gosh it works.  

However, given that a quick survey shows it's hostname elsewhere
in the templates, changing the variables, rather than the substitution
string, is probably the correct answer.  In that particular module, however,
it's used as host_name a dozen times...  In my local copy I just did a 
global substitute of host_name for hostname, for cross-module consistency
sake...




From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 05:25:33 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:25:33 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14988.45173.531482.934269@anthem.wooz.org>
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215201212.02d81ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216002445.051504c0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 11:45 PM 2/15/01 -0500, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

>>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:
>
>    RJ> I tried resetting it, just in case, with mmsitepass (which,
>    RJ> btw, bitches about getpass failing, which I don't remember
>    RJ> happening before, but might have).
>
>I bet you didn't enable the termios module when you built Python 2.0.
>Fortunately, Python 2.1 is going to be /much/ better about building a
>batteries-included interpreter, so stuff like this should go away.
>Still, I'm not going to require Python 2.1.  Just edit your
>Modules/Setup file to enable termios and your getpass should work.

And, like magic... Jeez, that's the third time I had to regenerate python
today because I figured out that I really probably did need that option module..



From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 05:32:01 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:32:01 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
In-Reply-To: <14988.45631.157333.90269@anthem.wooz.org>
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215204144.02f75ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216003013.04de6c50@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 11:53 PM 2/15/01 -0500, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

>    | Traceback:
>    | Traceback (most recent call last):
>    |   File "/home/mailman/scripts/driver", line 105, in run_main
>    |     main()
>    |   File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 144, in main
>    |     FormatConfiguration(doc, mlist, category, category_suffix, cgidata)
>    |   File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 298, in FormatConfiguration
>    |     form.AddItem(FormatOptionsSection(category, mlist, cgi_data))
>    |   File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 315, in FormatOptionsSection
>    |     options = GetConfigOptions(mlist, category)
>    |   File "../Mailman/Cgi/admin.py", line 953, in GetConfigOptions
>    |     return mlist.GetConfigInfo()[category]
>    |   File "../Mailman/MailList.py", line 361, in GetConfigInfo
>    |     config_info['general'] = [
>    | ValueError: list.index(x): x not in list
>
>Darn, this looks familiar.  I seem to remember seeing this while I was
>working on things a few weeks ago, but I don't remember what I did to
>fix it.  I guess it's time for me to try a fresh install and see
>what's busted.

Hmm.. Would it be pissed because you're trying to load the preferred _language
settings for a list that was created before those values were in the structure?

Ah-yup.  Just created a new list, and it works fine; the old lists all blow up.
When make install did the make update, it should probably have convered all
the config.db's to the new structure.



From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 06:01:02 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:01:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215201212.02d81ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216002445.051504c0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.49694.915624.227937@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> And, like magic... Jeez, that's the third time I had to
    RJ> regenerate python today because I figured out that I really
    RJ> probably did need that option module..

Fun, fun!


From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 06:02:12 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:02:12 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215204144.02f75ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216000922.04dbeec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.49764.946978.113709@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> Chuckle.... Ok, now that I know how it's supposed to work,
    RJ> it's obvious why it doesn't :-).

    RJ> Move the "from mimelib.Parser import Parser" to *after* the
    RJ> block of code that loads the Mailman defaults :-).  I.e. don't
    RJ> depend on the hacked path until after you hacked it...

Freakin' Duh. :)  Okay, now I /know/ it's time for sleep.


From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 06:25:45 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:25:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] latest checkins
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216012336.04e5dec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

Ok, Barry, the latest checkins solved the missing en file problem.
(I deleted my en dir after I saw what you were doing.)

w.r.t the comment about long term solutions, wouldn't the right move
be for 2.1 to install an en directory, and load it with the english
files?  I would presume that mailman will ship, eventually, with
all the various language files that are contributed back, so why
should en be any different?  That way there's no real need to
special case, since the install porocedure will correctly build the
directory.



From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 06:33:01 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:33:01 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215201212.02d81ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216001520.02cf3c30@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.51613.152623.631858@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> However, given that a quick survey shows it's hostname
    RJ> elsewhere in the templates, changing the variables, rather
    RJ> than the substitution string, is probably the correct answer.

Indeed.  Thanks.

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 06:39:29 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:39:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] latest checkins
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216012336.04e5dec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.52001.7008.133652@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> w.r.t the comment about long term solutions, wouldn't the
    RJ> right move be for 2.1 to install an en directory, and load it
    RJ> with the english files?

Probably so.

    RJ> I would presume that mailman will ship, eventually, with all
    RJ> the various language files that are contributed back, so why
    RJ> should en be any different?  That way there's no real need to
    RJ> special case, since the install porocedure will correctly
    RJ> build the directory.

I'm not sure I want to ship other languages with the base Mailman
distro.  There are three reasons.  First, the language catalogs will
increase the size of the distro, although it that may not be big
enough to matter.  Second, and more important, is that the language
catalogs may have a different release schedule than the core system.
I.e. new languages will be donated and existing languages will be
updated on the translator's time frame.  I'd like to not tie language
specifics to the core system.  Third, I think very few sites are going
to need all the available languages.  I can certainly see that many
sites will need one, perhaps two languages, but not all.

I'm not 100% on this though, so convincing arguments are welcome!  But
right now I see shipping the core Mailman distro with English support
only, but making it extremely simple to download and install a new
language.

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Fri Feb 16 06:54:34 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:54:34 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010215204144.02f75ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216003013.04de6c50@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14988.52906.47297.734630@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> Ah-yup.  Just created a new list, and it works fine; the old
    RJ> lists all blow up.  When make install did the make update, it
    RJ> should probably have convered all the config.db's to the new
    RJ> structure.

Except that I bumped the DATA_FILE_VERSION in Version.py to 23 so when
any old list (i.e. with a self.data_version < 23) is loaded, it should
have gotten the preferred_language attribute set to
mm_cfg.DEFAULT_SERVER_LANGUAGE.

confused-and-sleepy y'rs,
-Barry


From hypnose@t-online.de  Fri Feb 16 08:46:50 2001
From: hypnose@t-online.de (guenter wessling)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:46:50 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] core with intl language setups
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010216094650.007abd60@pop.btx.dtag.de>

Hi, Barry, hi all,
pretty new to the list. Great program - thanks for all the work.

Question of understanding:
where is the "bingo" in language diffs ?
I mean: the text of the admin pages, which remains in English if I
translate all the "templates", is it hard-coded in python (someone on the
intl.-list told me) or is it to be found somewhere in the mailman-files
(.py or whereever) ?

guenter



>I'm not sure I want to ship other languages with the base Mailman
>distro.  There are three reasons.  First, the language catalogs will
>increase the size of the distro, although it that may not be big
>enough to matter.  Second, and more important, is that the language
>catalogs may have a different release schedule than the core system.
>I.e. new languages will be donated and existing languages will be
>updated on the translator's time frame.  I'd like to not tie language
>specifics to the core system.  Third, I think very few sites are going
>to need all the available languages.  I can certainly see that many
>sites will need one, perhaps two languages, but not all.
>
>I'm not 100% on this though, so convincing arguments are welcome!  But
>right now I see shipping the core Mailman distro with English support
>only, but making it extremely simple to download and install a new
>language.
>
>-Barry
>
>
guenter wessling (hypnose@t-online.de)


From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 21:15:45 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:15:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

Jeez, Barry, that itty-bitty change you made last night to not 
import _ into the namespace by default broke a *lot* of things...

I was trying to use config_list, and had to edit several modules
to do a from Mailman.i18n import _...
Digester.py
Archiver.py
GatewayManager.py
MailList.py

(Of course, just my luck, MailList.py blows up the same place the admin
page blows up on a bad list, line 362 in GetConfigInfo, with the
same "ValueError: list.index(x): x not in list" error...)

I expect there's more places that need to do the import, Those are just the
first few.

Oh, and something about the HTMLFormatter change last night broke newlang,
I haven't had a chance to look at that since 4am.



From thomas@xs4all.net  Fri Feb 16 22:00:37 2001
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:00:37 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>; from jarrell@vt.edu on Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 04:15:45PM -0500
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20010216230037.O4924@xs4all.nl>

On Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 04:15:45PM -0500, Ron Jarrell wrote:
> Jeez, Barry, that itty-bitty change you made last night to not 
> import _ into the namespace by default broke a *lot* of things...

> I was trying to use config_list, and had to edit several modules
> to do a from Mailman.i18n import _...
> Digester.py
> Archiver.py
> GatewayManager.py
> MailList.py

A quick grep through a fresh tree gives me this handy (for Barry and for
those that run pre-alpha Mailmans on production machines :-) list:

+./Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py
+./Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py
+./Mailman/Bouncer.py
+./Mailman/Deliverer.py
+./Mailman/Digester.py
+./Mailman/Errors.py
+./Mailman/GatewayManager.py
+./Mailman/ListAdmin.py
+./Mailman/MailCommandHandler.py
+./Mailman/MailList.py
+./Mailman/htmlformat.py
+./Mailman/Cgi/admin.py
+./Mailman/Cgi/admindb.py
+./Mailman/Cgi/edithtml.py
+./Mailman/Cgi/handle_opts.py
+./Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py
+./Mailman/Cgi/options.py
+./Mailman/Cgi/private.py
+./Mailman/Cgi/roster.py
+./Mailman/Cgi/subscribe.py
+./Mailman/Handlers/Acknowledge.py

(That's done using:
find . -type f -print | xargs grep -l '[^_a-zA-Z0-9]_(' > list
find . -type f -print | xargs fgrep -l 'import _' | diff -u - list | fgrep +
and ignoring the .gz files.)

It's probably safe to assume that anything that imports gettext needs to be
modified to import _ explicitly, but I'll let Barry draw that conclusion :-)

-- 
Thomas Wouters 

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 22:11:29 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:11:29 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216162624.03247700@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216164232.03293950@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 04:15 PM 2/16/01 -0500, I wrote: 
>Jeez, Barry, that itty-bitty change you made last night to not 
>import _ into the namespace by default broke a *lot* of things... 
> 
>I was trying to use config_list, and had to edit several modules 
>to do a from Mailman.i18n import _...
Add Bouncer.py to that.

W.r.t my newlang problems..

Since I deleted the templates/en dir I had created to test the fallback, newlang wouldn't
work, because there's no en directory to copy to the new list...  It needs to catch the fact
that ok_langs is empty before the loop that prints which languages were installed runs,
otherwise the status message looks stupid :-).

Perhaps instead of saying "language not supported" it say "No template directory for
language." Particularly since that's the only check; it doesn't matter if the language is
defined or not in Defaults, and, in fact, if it's NOT defined there, you can still install
support for it with newlang, you just can't tell mailman to use it later.  (Which means,
come to think of it, that in a perfect world newlang would check the supported languages
array out of Defaults as well as looking for the directory...)

Newlang also has a nasty habit of leaving the list locked if anything goes wrong.

w.r.t your comment about needing to look at the call to HTMLFormatter. You do
need to init it, because mlist._template_path is used by it, and by newlang, and it's
*not* defined in MailList; HTMLFormatter adds it to the object when it runs.  The
reason it's broken, however, which came to me in a blinding flash of "duh", is that 
we instantiate an mlist for the list we're looking at, but do the initvars on "list", not 
"mlist"... So on newlang line 86 change list to mlist.

BTW, there's going to be either a very smart update procedure needed, or a lot of
verbiage in the Readme... Or both.  People need to install EN support into
each list they own.  Which they can do by hand, or with newlang.  However, if
newlang does it, it'll populate the files from the template directory.  Now, because
all lists default to en, they'll be using *those* templates, which might differ from the
one that are installed in the list.  (Which, is, of course, a regular occupational hazard
of updating mailman, but there's a new twist.)  So those templates, which haven't
been changed by anyone, won't be used anymore, without admins being any the wiser
unless they pay attention.  

Two things need to happen in an upgrade, order optional.  Each list needs an "en" subdir,
and all the templates in the list dir need to move to the en dir.  Also, all the templates, as usual,
need to be checked by hand against the new versions.  (Luckily, so far, the only difference 
between any of mine, and the defaults is the revision number in the comment.)

If everyone was running an english version, I'd say just have update move *.html, installing
a new headfoot.html, since that seems to be new,  into an en dir for each list, then print the
standard warning to go compare configurations.  Anyone that's already done any language
changes though will find their local language sitting in the english subdir... Either way, there's 
copius notage in the readme necessary to explain where things are going and why...





From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 23:36:04 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:36:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Ah-HAH!
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216182559.05f30de0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

I found the damn error causing tracebacks in MailList from "ValueError: list.index(x): x not in list."

I was right that it was in the languages section, because that's the only place in MailList we call
index.  I had to unravel the language support though.

While it's building the options list which will be handed off to the cgi form, it's trying
to create the "pretty" names for the languages installed on that list.  At line 352
we do

langs = self.GetAvailableLanguages()

(where self is the current MailList).  GetAvailableLanguages brute force just walks the
directory and looks for subdirs, by calling Utils.GetDirectories(self._full_path).  If there's
a subdir, it's a language.  (Which means don't be creating subdirs under lists; mailman will
think you've added a new language.  I'm thinking the template dir should be listname/templates/language
so as to avoid confusion...)

If there are no subdirs, then there are no languages.  langs is set to [].

at line 381, in the monolithic setting of the config_info['general'] block, we have:

 ('preferred_language', mm_cfg.Select,
	     (langs, map(_, map(Utils.GetLanguageDescr, langs)),
	      langs.index(self.preferred_language)), 0,
             _("Default language for this list."),
             _("All messages not related to an specific user will be displayed in this language.")),

Since self.preferred_language is forced to en on every new list, when we do the
langs.index(self.preferred_language), in this scenario, well, gosh, taking an index of something
not in the list is bad, since we're doing nothing to catch any possible exceptions...

So the short term workaround, for me, is to make sure all the lists have en installed.
Ideally the code needs to cope with a missing language cleanly.  This, I guess, makes it
more important for the update proc to forcibly install *something* in a new en directory
for any list that doesn't have one.

-Ron



From jarrell@vt.edu  Fri Feb 16 23:38:02 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:38:02 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] newlang
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216183735.05f33410@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

Oh, yea... newlang just never unlocks the list.  Period.  Not just when there's an error.



From jarrell@vt.edu  Sat Feb 17 02:19:00 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:19:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
In-Reply-To: <20010216230037.O4924@xs4all.nl>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216211533.04a80cc0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 11:00 PM 2/16/01 +0100, Thomas Wouters wrote:
>A quick grep through a fresh tree gives me this handy (for Barry and for
>those that run pre-alpha Mailmans on production machines :-) list:

Ok, I went in and put in the appropriate import in all those modules except
pipermail, which has it's own internal definition of _, and one other
which was importing all of the i18n module anyway.

Barry, just in case you haven't done it, and it helps you, I uploaded a patch 
to 103852, which is a diff against my current snapshot; it's all the imports, plus
the typo in newlang.



From jarrell@vt.edu  Sat Feb 17 03:32:55 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:32:55 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216211533.04a80cc0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
References: <20010216230037.O4924@xs4all.nl>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216223214.02ed6060@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

rmlang has the same problem lang did.

:98s/list/m&/

:-)



From jarrell@vt.edu  Sat Feb 17 04:03:08 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:03:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] kind of working :-).
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216230121.04a38ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

I'm calling it quits for tonight, but I did manage to get a message through, after
starting up the new queue runner process.  Also managed to get it to blow chunks,
because I created a list, then deleted it, before queuerunner managed to deliver
the notice to the owner.  It wasn't happy.  Haven't looked at the code yet..

Feb 16 22:58:25 2001 (9814) qrunner watchdog detected subprocess exit
    (pid: 9823, sig: 0, sts: 1, class: Mailman.Queue.VirginRunner.VirginRunner, 
slice 0 of 1)
    restarting
Feb 16 22:58:25 2001 (9824) error opening list: test2

Feb 16 22:58:25 2001 (9824) Uncaught runner exception: There is no variable name
d 'filebase'
Feb 16 22:58:25 2001 (9824) Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 92, in __oneloop
    self.__onefile(msg, msgdata)
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py", line 118, in __onefile
    'Dequeuing message destined for missing list: %s' %
NameError: There is no variable named 'filebase'



From jarrell@vt.edu  Sat Feb 17 04:05:01 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:05:01 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Oh yea
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216230425.02ec6ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

Almost forgot - Barry, qrunner's getopt doesn't actually know what the -b argument is...



From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Sat Feb 17 07:15:33 2001
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:15:33 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug in mailman 2.0
Message-ID: 

Ran into a fun but in 2.0 the other day. A European user kept having his
messages held in the moderator queue for not being subscribed, even though
he was.

Turns out his From was encoded:

From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F8rgen?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_?=
  =?iso-8859-1?Q?N=F8rgaard?= 


And mailman can't handle this, even though it's perfectly legal. It can't
find the address to properly validate it as subscribed.....

Chuq

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome 
[ =  = ]
Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you.

"He doesn't have ulcers, but he's a carrier."



From thomas@xs4all.net  Sat Feb 17 10:26:31 2001
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:26:31 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216211533.04a80cc0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>; from jarrell@vt.edu on Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 09:19:00PM -0500
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> <20010216230037.O4924@xs4all.nl> <5.0.2.1.2.20010216211533.04a80cc0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20010217112631.P4924@xs4all.nl>

On Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 09:19:00PM -0500, Ron Jarrell wrote:
> At 11:00 PM 2/16/01 +0100, Thomas Wouters wrote:
> >A quick grep through a fresh tree gives me this handy (for Barry and for
> >those that run pre-alpha Mailmans on production machines :-) list:

> Ok, I went in and put in the appropriate import in all those modules except
> pipermail, which has it's own internal definition of _, and one other
> which was importing all of the i18n module anyway.

Note that that isn't enough. 'from module import *' doesn't import names
starting with a _, and _ does start with a _. I can't find which module
you're talking about, though, so maybe you mean that it does 'from module
import spam, parrot, ham, creosote, voom, _, bucket', which would work.

-- 
Thomas Wouters 

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From scranefield@infoscience.otago.ac.nz  Sun Feb 18 20:57:03 2001
From: scranefield@infoscience.otago.ac.nz (Stephen Cranefield)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:57:03 +1300
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Feature request: Make bookmarks into archives work better
Message-ID: <3A90371F.95E14C59@infoscience.otago.ac.nz>

I subscribe to a number of mailing lists on a site that uses mailman
and I would like to be able to reference in a paper a message in the
archives of one of the lists.  The archives are for members only but
anyone can join the list.

The problem is that entering the URL for an individual message 
results in a login page and there is no information on that
page about how to subscribe to the list.  Is it possible to add a
link from the log-in page for a list to the subscription page?

Secondly, after a successful login, the result is the top-level
archive page for the list - the URL for the individual message
has been ignored.  Is it possible to fix this so the actual URL
that was entered is remembered?

- Stephen


From jcrey@uma.es  Mon Feb 19 09:46:11 2001
From: jcrey@uma.es (Juan Carlos Rey Anaya)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:46:11 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Ah-HAH!
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216182559.05f30de0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3A90EB63.1B6AEEEA@uma.es>

Ron Jarrell wrote:
>
> (where self is the current MailList).  GetAvailableLanguages brute forc=
e just walks the
> directory and looks for subdirs, by calling Utils.GetDirectories(self._=
full_path).  If there's
> a subdir, it's a language.  (Which means don't be creating subdirs unde=
r lists; mailman will
> think you've added a new language.  I'm thinking the template dir shoul=
d be listname/templates/language
> so as to avoid confusion...)
> =

I have written that code supposing there is a hirarchy under templates
like
templates/en
         /es
         /it
like we described so long ago in mailman developers
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/1999-May/001084.html

Cheers
-- =

                          ___
                         / F \
                        [[[]]]]
                        ( O O )
   #----------------0000--(_)--0000---------------#
   |    Juan Carlos Rey Anaya (jcrey@uma.es)      |
   |      Servicio Central de inform=E1tica         |
   |       Universidad de M=E1laga - Espa=F1a         |
   #----------------------------------------------#
   #      reynini@22x28.org   pa los globeros :-) #
   #----------------------------------------------#


From gob@multi.com.uy  Mon Feb 19 13:29:49 2001
From: gob@multi.com.uy (Gustavo Olaza)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:29:49 -0300 (UYT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Translate Mailman to spanish
Message-ID: 

Hi!
I'm going to use the Mailman software soon.  Thank you!.  But previously,
i need to translate it to spanish.  I downloaded the sources of
Mailman recently from ftp.gnu.org and seek the way of do the translation
in the best form, to leave this work available to other people.
What i must do for this?
Could anyone of you help me?

Thanks again,

;-)
Gustavo Olaza



From jarrell@vt.edu  Mon Feb 19 20:55:13 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:55:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Ah-HAH!
In-Reply-To: <3A90EB63.1B6AEEEA@uma.es>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216182559.05f30de0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010219155306.02b721b0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 10:46 AM 2/19/01 +0100, you wrote:
>Ron Jarrell wrote:
>>
>> (where self is the current MailList).  GetAvailableLanguages brute force just walks the
>> directory and looks for subdirs, by calling Utils.GetDirectories(self._full_path).  If there's
>> a subdir, it's a language.  (Which means don't be creating subdirs under lists; mailman will
>> think you've added a new language.  I'm thinking the template dir should be listname/templates/language
>> so as to avoid confusion...)
>> 
>I have written that code supposing there is a hirarchy under templates
>like
>templates/en
>         /es
>         /it
>like we described so long ago in mailman developers
>http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/1999-May/001084.html

Yea the ~mailman/templates directory is like that.  What I meant was the per-list
language support.  It should probably be ~mailman/lists/listname/template/XX, or
maybe template is the wrong word here.  Regardless, given that the code just
assumes any subdirs are languages, to prevent administrators from accidentally
getting hoist on their own petard, there probably should be a designated place
they go...



From jarrell@vt.edu  Mon Feb 19 20:51:46 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:51:46 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
In-Reply-To: <20010217112631.P4924@xs4all.nl>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216211533.04a80cc0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <20010216230037.O4924@xs4all.nl>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216211533.04a80cc0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010219155035.02b77ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 11:26 AM 2/17/01 +0100, you wrote:
>On Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 09:19:00PM -0500, Ron Jarrell wrote:
>> At 11:00 PM 2/16/01 +0100, Thomas Wouters wrote:
>> >A quick grep through a fresh tree gives me this handy (for Barry and for
>> >those that run pre-alpha Mailmans on production machines :-) list:
>
>> Ok, I went in and put in the appropriate import in all those modules except
>> pipermail, which has it's own internal definition of _, and one other
>> which was importing all of the i18n module anyway.
>
>Note that that isn't enough. 'from module import *' doesn't import names
>starting with a _, and _ does start with a _. I can't find which module
>you're talking about, though, so maybe you mean that it does 'from module
>import spam, parrot, ham, creosote, voom, _, bucket', which would work.

Errors.py just says "import Mailman.i18n"  So that means it's not importing
_?  Can it use it explicitly?  Because what it does is a "rejection=Mailman.i18n._('text')"



From jarrell@vt.edu  Mon Feb 19 20:58:43 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:58:43 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] NewsRunner
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010219155732.06794d50@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

Needs do import syslog before using it to log...



From thomas@xs4all.net  Tue Feb 20 08:40:09 2001
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:40:09 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010219155035.02b77ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>; from jarrell@vt.edu on Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 03:51:46PM -0500
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216211533.04a80cc0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> <20010216230037.O4924@xs4all.nl> <5.0.2.1.2.20010216211533.04a80cc0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> <20010217112631.P4924@xs4all.nl> <5.0.2.1.2.20010219155035.02b77ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20010220094006.A13911@xs4all.nl>

On Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 03:51:46PM -0500, Ron Jarrell wrote:

> >> Ok, I went in and put in the appropriate import in all those modules except
> >> pipermail, which has it's own internal definition of _, and one other
> >> which was importing all of the i18n module anyway.

> >Note that that isn't enough. 'from module import *' doesn't import names
> >starting with a _, and _ does start with a _. I can't find which module
> >you're talking about, though, so maybe you mean that it does 'from module
> >import spam, parrot, ham, creosote, voom, _, bucket', which would work.

> Errors.py just says "import Mailman.i18n"  So that means it's not
> importing _?  Can it use it explicitly?  Because what it does is a
> "rejection=Mailman.i18n._('text')"

Yes, that works, too. 

-- 
Thomas Wouters 

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From fil@rezo.net  Tue Feb 20 09:14:49 2001
From: fil@rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:14:49 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
Message-ID: <20010220101449.A11895@orwell.bok.net>

Dear mailman-coders

You recently changed all calls like
    write('(locked)', file=sys.stderr)
to
    print >> sys.stderr, _('(locked)')

but the latter will not compile on my machine. Am I missing something?

Here's what I get when I call almost every program in mailman/bin:
> ./withlist 
  File "./withlist", line 128
    print >> sys.stderr, _(__doc__)
           ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax




-- Fil



From ralph@inputplus.demon.co.uk  Tue Feb 20 09:52:46 2001
From: ralph@inputplus.demon.co.uk (Ralph Corderoy)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:52:46 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: Message from Fil 
 of "Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:14:49 +0100." <20010220101449.A11895@orwell.bok.net>
Message-ID: <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>

Hi Fil,

> You recently changed all calls like
>     write('(locked)', file=sys.stderr)
> to
>     print >> sys.stderr, _('(locked)')
> 
> but the latter will not compile on my machine. Am I missing something?

I'd guess that your version of Python isn't recent enough to have the
new `>>' for I/O redirection.

Sorry, but I don't know what version you'd require.


Ralph.



From fil@rezo.net  Tue Feb 20 10:18:54 2001
From: fil@rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:18:54 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>; from ralph@inputplus.demon.co.uk on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 09:52:46AM +0000
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20010220111854.A12500@orwell.bok.net>

But I have :
Python 1.5.2 (#0, Dec 27 2000, 14:53:01)  [GCC 2.95.2 20000220 (Debian
GNU/Linux)] on linux2
Copyright 1991-1995 Stichting Mathematisch Centrum, Amsterdam



@ Ralph Corderoy (ralph@inputplus.demon.co.uk) :
> 
> Hi Fil,
> 
> > You recently changed all calls like
> >     write('(locked)', file=sys.stderr)
> > to
> >     print >> sys.stderr, _('(locked)')
> > 
> > but the latter will not compile on my machine. Am I missing something?
> 
> I'd guess that your version of Python isn't recent enough to have the
> new `>>' for I/O redirection.
> 
> Sorry, but I don't know what version you'd require.
> 
> 
> Ralph.
> 

-- Fil



From fil@rezo.net  Tue Feb 20 10:47:50 2001
From: fil@rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:47:50 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>; from ralph@inputplus.demon.co.uk on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 09:52:46AM +0000
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>

> > You recently changed all calls like
> >     write('(locked)', file=sys.stderr)
> > to
> >     print >> sys.stderr, _('(locked)')
> > 
> > but the latter will not compile on my machine. Am I missing something?
> 
> I'd guess that your version of Python isn't recent enough to have the
> new `>>' for I/O redirection.
> 
> Sorry, but I don't know what version you'd require.

Indeed it seems that python 1.52 does not accept the new calls. The error is
not here with python2.

miel:~/mailman# python2
Python 2.0 (#0, Jan 11 2001, 10:52:15) 
[GCC 2.95.2 20000220 (Debian GNU/Linux)] on linux2
Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> print >> sys.stderr, "toto"
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "", line 1, in ?
NameError: There is no variable named 'sys'
>>> 


miel:~/mailman# python
Python 1.5.2 (#0, Dec 27 2000, 14:53:01)  [GCC 2.95.2 20000220 (Debian
GNU/Linux)] on linux2
Copyright 1991-1995 Stichting Mathematisch Centrum, Amsterdam
>>> print >> sys.stderr, "toto"
  File "", line 1
    print >> sys.stderr, "toto"
           ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax


-- Fil



From dan.mick@west.sun.com  Tue Feb 20 10:59:56 2001
From: dan.mick@west.sun.com (Dan Mick)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:59:56 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Big checkins a'comin'!
References: <14987.17800.75342.229800@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <3A924E2C.E4A6B9FF@west.sun.com>


"Barry A. Warsaw" wrote:
	.
	.
	.
> Remember, Python 2.0 is required!
	.
	.
	.
> 
> Enjoy,
> -Barry


This would explain the >> issues, Fil...


From thomas@xs4all.net  Tue Feb 20 11:39:22 2001
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:39:22 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>; from fil@rezo.net on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 11:47:50AM +0100
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>
Message-ID: <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 11:47:50AM +0100, Fil wrote:
> > > You recently changed all calls like
> > >     write('(locked)', file=sys.stderr)
> > > to
> > >     print >> sys.stderr, _('(locked)')
> > > 
> > > but the latter will not compile on my machine. Am I missing something?
> > 
> > I'd guess that your version of Python isn't recent enough to have the
> > new `>>' for I/O redirection.
> > 
> > Sorry, but I don't know what version you'd require.

> Indeed it seems that python 1.52 does not accept the new calls.

You mean Python 1.5.2, not 1.52. There is a difference, even though 1.52
will probably never exist :)

> The error is not here with python2.

The README clearly states what version of Python you need to run Mailman.
It currently says:

    Mailman requires Python 2.0 or greater, which can be downloaded
    from [...]

Future versions will probably require Python 2.1 ;)

-- 
Thomas Wouters 

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From fil@rezo.net  Tue Feb 20 11:50:13 2001
From: fil@rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:50:13 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>; from thomas@xs4all.net on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:39:22PM +0100
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net> <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net>

@ Thomas Wouters (thomas@xs4all.net) :
> The README clearly states what version of Python you need to run Mailman.
> It currently says:
> 
>     Mailman requires Python 2.0 or greater, which can be downloaded
>     from [...]
> 
> Future versions will probably require Python 2.1 ;)

All right. But. I've installed python2 with Debian, and mailman does not
know how to use it (Debian installs python2 as /usr/bin/python2, and
/usr/bin/env python points to the python1x version.)

But this must be a debian issue ;)

-- Fil



From thomas@xs4all.net  Tue Feb 20 11:54:31 2001
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:54:31 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net>; from fil@rezo.net on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:50:13PM +0100
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net> <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl> <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net>
Message-ID: <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:50:13PM +0100, Fil wrote:
> @ Thomas Wouters (thomas@xs4all.net) :
> > The README clearly states what version of Python you need to run Mailman.
> > It currently says:
> > 
> >     Mailman requires Python 2.0 or greater, which can be downloaded
> >     from [...]
> > 
> > Future versions will probably require Python 2.1 ;)

> All right. But. I've installed python2 with Debian, and mailman does not
> know how to use it (Debian installs python2 as /usr/bin/python2, and
> /usr/bin/env python points to the python1x version.)

So either point 'python' to 'python2', or change all scripts to point to the
right python executable.

> But this must be a debian issue ;)

Partly, yes. 

-- 
Thomas Wouters 

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From fil@rezo.net  Tue Feb 20 12:06:42 2001
From: fil@rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:06:42 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl>; from thomas@xs4all.net on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:54:31PM +0100
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net> <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl> <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net> <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <20010220130641.A419@orwell.bok.net>

> So either point 'python' to 'python2', or change all scripts to point to the
> right python executable.

Well I hoped 
./configure --with-mail-gid=65534 --with-python=/usr/bin/python2 
would do it. 

> > But this must be a debian issue ;)
> Partly, yes. 

The explanation is here; python2.0 does not have the right license for
Debian. Consequence: mailman is currently not compatible with debian.

http://lists.debian.org/debian-python-0102/msg00028.html

-- Fil



From thomas@xs4all.net  Tue Feb 20 12:14:01 2001
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:14:01 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <20010220130641.A419@orwell.bok.net>; from fil@rezo.net on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:06:42PM +0100
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net> <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl> <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net> <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl> <20010220130641.A419@orwell.bok.net>
Message-ID: <20010220131401.N13855@xs4all.nl>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:06:42PM +0100, Fil wrote:
> > So either point 'python' to 'python2', or change all scripts to point to the
> > right python executable.

> Well I hoped 
> ./configure --with-mail-gid=65534 --with-python=/usr/bin/python2 
> would do it. 

It should, probably, but it doesn't work for the scripts in bin/... Not sure
why that is. Barry ?

> > > But this must be a debian issue ;)
> > Partly, yes. 

> The explanation is here; python2.0 does not have the right license for
> Debian. Consequence: mailman is currently not compatible with debian.

That's not the reason for the python<->python2 difference, or at least
shouldn't be. If the licence isn't right, python2 shouldn't be distributed
at all ;) The name change is to avoid breakage in running scripts, because
of a few subtle changes in python 2.0.

-- 
Thomas Wouters 

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From mats@laplaza.org  Tue Feb 20 13:38:52 2001
From: mats@laplaza.org (mats@laplaza.org)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:38:52 -0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010219155035.02b77ec0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <200102201344.GAA19532@elvis.laplaza.org>

Ron Jarrell  said:

> At 11:26 AM 2/17/01 +0100, you wrote:
> >On Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 09:19:00PM -0500, Ron Jarrell wrote:
> >> At 11:00 PM 2/16/01 +0100, Thomas Wouters wrote:
> >> >A quick grep through a fresh tree gives me this handy (for Barry and for
> >> >those that run pre-alpha Mailmans on production machines :-) list:
> >
> >> Ok, I went in and put in the appropriate import in all those modules 
except
> >> pipermail, which has it's own internal definition of _, and one other
> >> which was importing all of the i18n module anyway.
> >
> >Note that that isn't enough. 'from module import *' doesn't import names
> >starting with a _, and _ does start with a _. I can't find which module
> >you're talking about, though, so maybe you mean that it does 'from module
> >import spam, parrot, ham, creosote, voom, _, bucket', which would work.
> 
> Errors.py just says "import Mailman.i18n"  So that means it's not importing
> _?  Can it use it explicitly?  Because what it does is a 
"rejection=Mailman.i18n._('text')"


Not a problem.  The _ restriction only applies to

from module import *

since that form brings in everything from the module
into the /current/ namespace.  Using

import module

there's no namespace pollution, so no need to restrict
what's brought in.

Mats


From claw@kanga.nu  Tue Feb 20 16:56:48 2001
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:56:48 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: Message from Fil 
 of "Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:50:13 +0100." <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net>
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net> <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>  <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net>
Message-ID: <2498.982688208@kanga.nu>

On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:50:13 +0100 
Fil   wrote:

> All right. But. I've installed python2 with Debian, and mailman
> does not know how to use it (Debian installs python2 as
> /usr/bin/python2, and /usr/bin/env python points to the python1x
> version.)

> But this must be a debian issue ;)

Move your /etc/alternatives pointer.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 20 17:20:27 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:20:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
References: 
 <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>
 <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <14994.42843.580459.669272@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "TW" == Thomas Wouters  writes:

    TW> The README clearly states what version of Python you need to
    TW> run Mailman.  It currently says:

    >> Mailman requires Python 2.0 or greater, which can be downloaded
    >> from [...]

Yup, I've announced that requirement long ago.  Python 2.0 has too
many great features (and bug fixes!) to ignore.

    TW> Future versions will probably require Python 2.1 ;)

I'm going to try to avoid that, if possible, especially since Python
2.1 isn't even in beta testing yet!

>>>>> "F" == Fil   writes:

    F> All right. But. I've installed python2 with Debian, and mailman
    F> does not know how to use it (Debian installs python2 as
    F> /usr/bin/python2, and /usr/bin/env python points to the
    F> python1x version.)

Two things.  You can use the --with-python configure option to choose
which Python executable gets compiled into the source.  Second, add a
symlink somewhere on your $PATH so that your shell finds
/usr/bin/python2 before wherever python1.x is installed.

>>>>> "F" == Fil   writes:

    F> The explanation is here; python2.0 does not have the right
    F> license for Debian. Consequence: mailman is currently not
    F> compatible with debian.

    F> http://lists.debian.org/debian-python-0102/msg00028.html

Two comments, which I'm not directing at the Debian folks because they
need to make their own decisions, and because I don't know who at
Debian to direct these to.

First, I don't buy the backwards compatibility argument.  Yes, some
code broke, but it was broken anyway (people using undocumented APIs).
The broken code is easily fixed.

Second, while the Python 1.6 license (which is included by value in
Python 2.0) is /technically/ incompatible with the GPL, it is in
spirit compatible.  The incompatibility really is a technicality of
the license language and not of philosophy, and I'm very confident
that an agreement between the FSF and CNRI will allow a release of
Python 1.6.1 (and hence Python 2.0.1) with this technicality erased.
Don't ask me about an ETA on that; if I had any influence over the
process at all, it would have happened a long time ago.  The FSF and
CNRI are like the proverbial rock and hard place, and we're the ones
stuck in the middle.

All that having been said, I specifically asked RMS if he had any
problems with me basing future Mailman releases on Python 2.0.  He
said he did not.

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 20 17:22:11 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:22:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
References: 
 <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>
 <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>
 <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl>
 <20010220130641.A419@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220131401.N13855@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <14994.42947.407042.519724@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "TW" == Thomas Wouters  writes:

    TW> It should, probably, but it doesn't work for the scripts in
    TW> bin/... Not sure why that is. Barry ?

Because the scripts in bin/ use the "/usr/bin/env python" trick.  You
need a symlink from "python -> python2" somewhere earlier in your
$PATH.

I'm not enthusiastic about changing this in the Mailman source, since
I'm disappointed at Debian's decision.

-Barry


From fil@rezo.net  Tue Feb 20 17:29:33 2001
From: fil@rezo.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:29:33 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <14994.42947.407042.519724@anthem.wooz.org>; from barry@digicool.com on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:22:11PM -0500
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net> <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl> <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net> <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl> <20010220130641.A419@orwell.bok.net> <20010220131401.N13855@xs4all.nl> <14994.42947.407042.519724@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <20010220182933.B9562@orwell.bok.net>

@ Barry A. Warsaw (barry@digicool.com) :
> 
> >>>>> "TW" == Thomas Wouters  writes:
> 
>     TW> It should, probably, but it doesn't work for the scripts in
>     TW> bin/... Not sure why that is. Barry ?
> 
> Because the scripts in bin/ use the "/usr/bin/env python" trick.  You
> need a symlink from "python -> python2" somewhere earlier in your
> $PATH.

Well: I've symlinked /usr/bin/python to /usr/bin/python2, and another error
pops up : does mailman need some python libraries which are not in
python2-base ?

miel:~# /home/mailman/bin/newlist 
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/home/mailman/bin/newlist", line 56, in ?
    from Mailman import MailList
  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 34, in ?
    from mimelib.address import getaddresses
ImportError: No module named mimelib.address



From thomas@xs4all.net  Tue Feb 20 17:39:28 2001
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:39:28 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <14994.42843.580459.669272@anthem.wooz.org>; from barry@digicool.com on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:20:27PM -0500
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net> <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl> <14994.42843.580459.669272@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <20010220183928.Q13855@xs4all.nl>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:20:27PM -0500, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

> First, I don't buy the backwards compatibility argument.  Yes, some
> code broke, but it was broken anyway (people using undocumented APIs).
> The broken code is easily fixed.

That is not something you can sell very easily, Barry. From the perspective
of providing a service to a lot of third parties, with at best a varying
cluelevel, upgrading is a very scary thing. I may seem very conservative on
python-dev, wrt. backwards compatibility, but I assure you I'm quite the
radical compared to some people, and compared to myself when considering
upgrades on production platforms :)

For instance, because we run webservers that serve over 10k domains, I am
very cautious in upgrading Apache, PHP or GD-lib on those machines. Yet
every time I do it, after careful consideration, I 'break' some websites
that were conciously or unconciously depending on a bug in some piece of
that software, or linked to a fixed version of a library, or using an
obsolete API. They might have been wrong in doing so, but from their
perspective it's very simple: it worked, *we* changed something, and now it
no longer works.

Nevertheless I do think Debian is going a bit over the wall in this case,
since they have a very clear distinction between stable, testing and
unstable trees. They could certainly switch python to python2 in the
unstable tree, since it'll be some time before that tree is going into
testing, and more yet before it's stable. It may have something to do with
the missing readline support in python2, though -- the disabling of modules
people might depend on falls under backwards compatibility again :)

-- 
Thomas Wouters 

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From thomas@xs4all.net  Tue Feb 20 17:43:01 2001
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:43:01 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <14994.42947.407042.519724@anthem.wooz.org>; from barry@digicool.com on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:22:11PM -0500
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net> <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl> <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net> <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl> <20010220130641.A419@orwell.bok.net> <20010220131401.N13855@xs4all.nl> <14994.42947.407042.519724@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <20010220184301.R13855@xs4all.nl>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:22:11PM -0500, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

> >>>>> "TW" == Thomas Wouters  writes:

>     TW> It should, probably, but it doesn't work for the scripts in
>     TW> bin/... Not sure why that is. Barry ?

> Because the scripts in bin/ use the "/usr/bin/env python" trick.  You
> need a symlink from "python -> python2" somewhere earlier in your
> $PATH.

But why provide the --with-python configure option if you end up having to
have python in your path after all ? It would make more sense if it allowed
pointing to a working python anywhere. I can think of several situations
where that might be desirable, for security or debugging purposes, and only
one of them is "because I run debian" :-)

-- 
Thomas Wouters 

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From ralph@inputplus.demon.co.uk  Tue Feb 20 17:54:25 2001
From: ralph@inputplus.demon.co.uk (Ralph Corderoy)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:54:25 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: Message from Fil 
 of "Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:29:33 +0100." <20010220182933.B9562@orwell.bok.net>
Message-ID: <200102201754.RAA01952@inputplus.demon.co.uk>

Hi Fil,

> Well: I've symlinked /usr/bin/python to /usr/bin/python2, and another error
> pops up : does mailman need some python libraries which are not in
> python2-base ?
> 
> ...
> ImportError: No module named mimelib.address

Yep, Barry's new mimelib.

    http://www.wooz.org/users/barry/software/mimelib/index.html


Ralph.



From gjp@in-addr.com  Tue Feb 20 18:13:08 2001
From: gjp@in-addr.com (Gary Palmer)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:13:08 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Archiver options
Message-ID: <42771.982692788@in-addr.com>

Hi,

Is there any way of turning off specific archive index options?
e.g. keep threads and author, but disable date and subject?

Thanks,

Gary


From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 20 18:17:23 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:17:23 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
References: 
 <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>
 <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>
 <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl>
 <20010220130641.A419@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220131401.N13855@xs4all.nl>
 <14994.42947.407042.519724@anthem.wooz.org>
 <20010220182933.B9562@orwell.bok.net>
Message-ID: <14994.46259.520948.790531@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "F" == Fil   writes:

    F> Well: I've symlinked /usr/bin/python to /usr/bin/python2, and
    F> another error pops up : does mailman need some python libraries
    F> which are not in python2-base ?

Yes, I thought my announcement of the Big Changes included a pointer
to mimelib.  It is not yet integrated, but will be for a future
release.

    http://barry.wooz.org/software/pyware.html

-Barry


From jarrell@vt.edu  Tue Feb 20 20:44:09 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:44:09 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] -checkins broken?
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010220154317.03312640@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

Something wrong with mailman-checkins?  A whole buncha stuff got checked in,
which fixed several of the things I'd noticed (although I'd already made those
changes locally), but I didn't see a thing from the checkins list...



From jarrell@vt.edu  Tue Feb 20 20:41:44 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:41:44 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <20010220182933.B9562@orwell.bok.net>
References: <14994.42947.407042.519724@anthem.wooz.org>
 
 <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>
 <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>
 <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl>
 <20010220130641.A419@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220131401.N13855@xs4all.nl>
 <14994.42947.407042.519724@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010220153937.02fee470@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 06:29 PM 2/20/01 +0100, Fil wrote:

>Well: I've symlinked /usr/bin/python to /usr/bin/python2, and another error
>pops up : does mailman need some python libraries which are not in
>python2-base ?
>
>miel:~# /home/mailman/bin/newlist 
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "/home/mailman/bin/newlist", line 56, in ?
>    from Mailman import MailList
>  File "/home/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 34, in ?
>    from mimelib.address import getaddresses
>ImportError: No module named mimelib.address

If you're gonna run alpha code, you really need to read the developers list;
Barry pointed out quite clearly early on that you needed Python 2.0,
*and* you needed his mimelib module which wasn't in the mailman
tree yet, and gave the website to get it from.  There's a bunch of
problems with 2.1 right now, and if you've been noticing over the
last few days there's been a flurry of bug reports and patches 
(mostly from me, as I slam into them :-)), so it's a little more of a
"hands on" release (not surprising, since it's an alpha.)  In fact,
until the next round of checkins happens, it mostly wont work
at all without the patches I recently posted.



From jarrell@vt.edu  Tue Feb 20 21:54:07 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:54:07 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] -checkins broken?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010220154317.03312640@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010220165252.03279cb0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 03:44 PM 2/20/01 -0500, you wrote:

>Something wrong with mailman-checkins?  A whole buncha stuff got checked in,
>which fixed several of the things I'd noticed (although I'd already made those
>changes locally), but I didn't see a thing from the checkins list...

Sigh.  Never mind.  I gotta pay more attention.  I'm sitting here staring at
the CVS display, which is telling me the damned things are locally "M"odified,
and my sleep starved brain is telling me "They were 'P'atched again??"




From scott-brown@home.com  Tue Feb 20 22:36:11 2001
From: scott-brown@home.com (Scott Brown)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:36:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] COMPLETELY Virtual mailing lists....
Message-ID: <004801c09b8d$8724be00$0401a8c0@ibmpeers>

Has anyone been able to completely virtualize the mailing lists under
mailman v2?

I'm not talking about the improvements made in v2....  I mean having
multiple domains be able to have the SAME list name.  Unless I've missed
something, right now they're limited to being unique per machine.  I know I
can do this now with foo_LISTA and bar_LISTA - but thats just cludgy when
the users want LISTA as the name...

My gut instinct is to have all the file access routines store their info
under a directory named after the virtual host.  I'm not sure how simply
this could be done as I've not looked tooo deeply into the guts of it, but
if the file references are all dealt with via common routines, it couldnt be
that hard could it?

so in ($prefix)/mailman/lists there would be

		foo.com/somelistname
		foo.com/LISTA
		bar.com/someotherlistname
		bar.com/LISTA

Obviously, the mail receiver post script would need to look at who the mail
was addressed to in order to be able to deal with the appropriate list....
probably some extra things in the webpage generation as well.

Is this a pipe dream??




From kambiz@colltech.com  Tue Feb 20 22:47:11 2001
From: kambiz@colltech.com (Kambiz Aghaiepour)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:47:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Fwd: URGENT: Something in message is breaking mailman!]
Message-ID: <3A92F3EF.66784F9C@collectivetech.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------411069A381CA9810B284F32A
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I sent this to mailman-users and now I'm sending this to you to see if anyone
has any insight into this.

Actually, I've been able to track this down to a problem in the python library
mimetools.py.  The message that causes problems has a header as such:

Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status
        boundary="-------=_2EF51FF1.3FFF45E0"

And if you notice, the report-type value is not terminated with a ';'
character. As a result, the value gets set to:

    "delivery-status
        boundary=...."

So when ~mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/Netscape.py  (or whatever) goes to run (in
the process routine):

   boundary = msg.getparam('boundary')

it gets back None which gets pushed onto the stack.  Later, when str is popped
off the stack python fails because it can't do a string operation on None.

If you look at the mimetools.py in the python library, and look at the
parsetype method of the Message class, you'll see that the problem is in the
assumption that each of the variable declarations in the Content-Type: header
of the mime encoded message are always terminated by a semicolon.  Just as a
test, I hand modified the message in the qfiles directory and change the above
Content-Type: header to read:

Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
        boundary="-------=_2EF51FF1.3FFF45E0"

and the message was processed.  So, what is the fix?  Occasionally, a message
will come back and end up in the qfiles directory that has the header as
described above. As a result, qrunner fails (errors out) and NONE of the email
on the system is processed.  This is a critical problem.  Could you please
help out with this?

Thanks
Kambiz

ps. Please reply directly to me, as I am not on this list. Thanks

-- 
\o__O  o    -=<  Kambiz Aghaiepour - (919)593-1964   >=-    o   o
  \_  /|\   -=<  Senior Consultant - The Collective  >=-   //\ //\
   |\  |\   -=<  mailto:kambiz@collectivetech.com    >=-    //  //
  / /  |/   -=<  http://www.collectivetech.com/      >=-    |\  ||
--------------411069A381CA9810B284F32A
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Message-ID: <3A91E65D.E1697BA5@colltech.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:37:01 -0500
From: Kambiz Aghaiepour 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: URGENT: Something in message is breaking mailman!
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------1B82DA4AF17B451A26B7C01E"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------1B82DA4AF17B451A26B7C01E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

We are running mailman-2.0.1 under Red Hat Linux 6.2.  Python is version
1.5.2.  For some reason that I can't figure the following message is
breaking qrunner and if ever such a message should end up in the qfiles
directory, ALL list processing comes to a stand still (why?!!).  It
would be nice if mailman would file "bad" messages that cause problems
into a different directory for future examination.  Anyhow, please
excuse the .tgz attachment (gzip compressed tar file containing a .msg
and a .db file).  Additionally, I have attached the error file from
~mailman/logs.  Something odd is going on in multipart.py and I don't
know python at all so I was hoping someone on the list can figure out
what's going on.  Maybe you can somehow reproduce the problem.  Thanks
for your attention.

Kambiz

-- 
\o__O  o   Kambiz Aghaiepour, RHCE  -    Phone: (919) 524-7423   o   o
  \_  /|\  Collective Technologies  |\|  Pager: (800) 946-4646  //\ //\
   |\  |\  -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-  | | -=-=-=-  Pin# 1412622 =- //  //
  / /  |/ mailto:kambiz@colltech.com  | http://www.colltech.com  |\  ||
--------------1B82DA4AF17B451A26B7C01E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;
 name="error"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="error"

Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243): Traceback (innermost last):
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):   File "/usr/share/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 283, in ?
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):      kids = main(lock)
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):   File "/usr/share/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 252, in main
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):      keepqueued = dispose_message(mlist, msg, msgdata)
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):   File "/usr/share/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 121, in dispose_message
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):      if BouncerAPI.ScanMessages(mlist, mimemsg):
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/BouncerAPI.py", line 59, in ScanMessages
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):      addrs = func(msg)
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/Netscape.py", line 62, in process
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):      more = mfile.next()
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/multifile.py", line 121, in next
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):      while self.readline(): pass
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/multifile.py", line 93, in readline
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):      if marker == self.section_divider(sep):
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/multifile.py", line 157, in section_divider
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243):      return "--" + str
Feb 19 22:03:00 2001 qrunner(10243): TypeError :  illegal argument type for built-in operation 
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253): Traceback (innermost last):
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):   File "/usr/share/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 283, in ?
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):      kids = main(lock)
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):   File "/usr/share/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 252, in main
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):      keepqueued = dispose_message(mlist, msg, msgdata)
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):   File "/usr/share/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 121, in dispose_message
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):      if BouncerAPI.ScanMessages(mlist, mimemsg):
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/BouncerAPI.py", line 59, in ScanMessages
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):      addrs = func(msg)
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/Netscape.py", line 62, in process
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):      more = mfile.next()
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/multifile.py", line 121, in next
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):      while self.readline(): pass
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/multifile.py", line 93, in readline
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):      if marker == self.section_divider(sep):
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/multifile.py", line 157, in section_divider
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253):      return "--" + str
Feb 19 22:03:15 2001 qrunner(10253): TypeError :  illegal argument type for built-in operation 
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256): Traceback (innermost last):
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):   File "/usr/share/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 283, in ?
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):      kids = main(lock)
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):   File "/usr/share/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 252, in main
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):      keepqueued = dispose_message(mlist, msg, msgdata)
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):   File "/usr/share/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 121, in dispose_message
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):      if BouncerAPI.ScanMessages(mlist, mimemsg):
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/BouncerAPI.py", line 59, in ScanMessages
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):      addrs = func(msg)
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/Netscape.py", line 62, in process
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):      more = mfile.next()
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/multifile.py", line 121, in next
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):      while self.readline(): pass
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/multifile.py", line 93, in readline
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):      if marker == self.section_divider(sep):
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/multifile.py", line 157, in section_divider
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256):      return "--" + str
Feb 19 22:03:22 2001 qrunner(10256): TypeError :  illegal argument type for built-in operation 


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From ashley@pcraft.com  Tue Feb 20 22:47:14 2001
From: ashley@pcraft.com (Ashley M. Kirchner)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:47:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] COMPLETELY Virtual mailing lists....
References: <004801c09b8d$8724be00$0401a8c0@ibmpeers>
Message-ID: <3A92F3F2.B35E7110@pcraft.com>

Scott Brown wrote:

> Has anyone been able to completely virtualize the mailing lists under
> mailman v2?

    Depends on how 'virtual' your setup is, and I suspect, it also depends on
the MTA.

    I have three domains sitting on one machine and mailman installed for each
one (meaning, three copies of mailman).  Each vhost has it's own web address,
and crontask.  And I can have the same list name under all three vhosts and it
works.

    lists.yeehaw.net    -> test-list@...
    lists.diarist.net   -> test-list@...  (these don't actually exist)
    lists.pcraft.net    -> test-list@...

    I run sendmail as my MTA, and using its virtusertable feature, combined with
aliases, each list knows where to go, what to do and what domain to use.

    I have lists that exist on two, or all three domains, same name.  And I have
lists that only exists on one of those domains.  It works like a charm....for
ME!  Doesn't mean it'll do the same for you.

    AMK4

--
W |
  |  I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere.
  |____________________________________________________________________
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Ashley M. Kirchner    .   303.442.6410 x130
  SysAdmin / Websmith                           .     800.441.3873 x130
  Photo Craft Laboratories, Inc.             .        eFax 248.671.0909
  http://www.pcraft.com                  .         3550 Arapahoe Ave #6
  .................. .  .  .     .               Boulder, CO 80303, USA




From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 20 23:23:52 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:23:52 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Fwd: URGENT: Something in message is breaking mailman!]
References: <3A92F3EF.66784F9C@collectivetech.com>
Message-ID: <14994.64648.127065.55403@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "KA" == Kambiz Aghaiepour  writes:

    KA> Actually, I've been able to track this down to a problem in
    KA> the python library mimetools.py.  The message that causes
    KA> problems has a header as such:

    | Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status
    |         boundary="-------=_2EF51FF1.3FFF45E0"


    KA> And if you notice, the report-type value is not terminated
    KA> with a ';' character. As a result, the value gets set to:

I'd call this a bug in the Netscape.py bounce detector, not in
mimetools.py.  The reason is that your message is not compliant with
the MIME RFC 1341, which requires the semi-colon separator between
parameters.  It is correct that rfc822.Message.getparam('boundary')
returns None in this case.

What's broken is that Netscape.py should make sure the boundary is not
None before it tries to use pass it to mimetools.

Here's a patch against Mailman 2.0.1.
-Barry

-------------------- snip snip --------------------
Index: Netscape.py
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/mailman/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/Netscape.py,v
retrieving revision 1.5
diff -u -r1.5 Netscape.py
--- Netscape.py	2000/06/20 05:40:36	1.5
+++ Netscape.py	2001/02/20 23:23:06
@@ -51,6 +51,8 @@
     if msg.getmaintype() <> 'multipart':
         return None
     boundary = msg.getparam('boundary')
+    if boundary is None:
+        return None
     msg.fp.seek(0)
     mfile = multifile.MultiFile(msg.fp)
     mfile.push(boundary)


From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 20 23:32:20 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:32:20 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] COMPLETELY Virtual mailing lists....
References: <004801c09b8d$8724be00$0401a8c0@ibmpeers>
 <3A92F3F2.B35E7110@pcraft.com>
Message-ID: <14994.65156.727101.701298@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "AMK" == Ashley M Kirchner  writes:

    AMK>     I have three domains sitting on one machine and mailman
    AMK> installed for each one (meaning, three copies of mailman).
    AMK> Each vhost has it's own web address, and crontask.  And I can
    AMK> have the same list name under all three vhosts and it works.

That's the commonly accepted practice for "full-virtual" operation.  I
don't plan on improving this situation until I get a Real Database
under Mailman.

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 20 23:42:59 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:42:59 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
References: 
 <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>
 <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>
 <14994.42843.580459.669272@anthem.wooz.org>
 <20010220183928.Q13855@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <14995.259.349861.2217@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "TW" == Thomas Wouters  writes:

    TW> That is not something you can sell very easily, Barry. From
    TW> the perspective of providing a service to a lot of third
    TW> parties, with at best a varying cluelevel, upgrading is a very
    TW> scary thing. I may seem very conservative on python-dev,
    TW> wrt. backwards compatibility, but I assure you I'm quite the
    TW> radical compared to some people, and compared to myself when
    TW> considering upgrades on production platforms :)

Upgrading sucks.  It always breaks something, and the only way to
avoid that is to never upgrade!  But I can appreciate the sentiment.
I think it was Jakob Neilsen who said, when he was talking about the
rate that users upgrade their browsers, that it takes about 2 years to
get the majority of users to upgrade to a new version.  If Python
adoption follows the same curve, I suspect that we'll still see
significant Python 1.5.2 usage for another 18 months or so. :}

    TW> Nevertheless I do think Debian is going a bit over the wall in
    TW> this case, since they have a very clear distinction between
    TW> stable, testing and unstable trees. They could certainly
    TW> switch python to python2 in the unstable tree, since it'll be
    TW> some time before that tree is going into testing, and more yet
    TW> before it's stable.

I don't keep up on Debian release procedures, but that sounds like the
right approach to me.
    
    TW> It may have something to do with the missing readline support
    TW> in python2, though -- the disabling of modules people might
    TW> depend on falls under backwards compatibility again :)

And now we're back to the licensing issues.  Which suck worse than
anything else.  I'd rather be debating the merits of indentation for
blocking with a devote obfuscated C code hacker than sit in another
room with lawyers debating licenses.

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 20 23:45:45 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:45:45 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
References: 
 <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>
 <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>
 <20010220125013.B18603@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220125431.M13855@xs4all.nl>
 <20010220130641.A419@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220131401.N13855@xs4all.nl>
 <14994.42947.407042.519724@anthem.wooz.org>
 <20010220184301.R13855@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <14995.425.827078.100793@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "TW" == Thomas Wouters  writes:

    TW> But why provide the --with-python configure option if you end
    TW> up having to have python in your path after all ? It would
    TW> make more sense if it allowed pointing to a working python
    TW> anywhere. I can think of several situations where that might
    TW> be desirable, for security or debugging purposes, and only one
    TW> of them is "because I run debian" :-)

Mostly because I didn't want to have .in files for every script in
bin/.  It didn't occur to me that a distro would rename the Python
executable to something other than `python'.  It might be time to
autoconf templatize those bin/ scripts.

-Barry


From scott-brown@home.com  Wed Feb 21 00:21:24 2001
From: scott-brown@home.com (Scott Brown)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:21:24 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] COMPLETELY Virtual mailing lists....
In-Reply-To: <14994.65156.727101.701298@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <006901c09b9c$3a117540$0401a8c0@ibmpeers>

> >>>>> "AMK" == Ashley M Kirchner  writes:
>
>     AMK>     I have three domains sitting on one machine and mailman
>     AMK> installed for each one (meaning, three copies of mailman).
>     AMK> Each vhost has it's own web address, and crontask.  And I can
>     AMK> have the same list name under all three vhosts and it works.
>
> That's the commonly accepted practice for "full-virtual" operation.  I
> don't plan on improving this situation until I get a Real Database
> under Mailman.
>

Isnt that kinda wasteful of system resources?  (I'm from a mainframe
background back in the days where 1meg of memory was a huge untapped
resource)

I mean - three copies of sendmail - each consuming 'x' bytes of main memory
+ swapped isnt very much - but if I've got 200+ domains on a server (I
dont - but I hope to one day ;-) then thats 200x the minimum memory
footprint that I want to give up to a routine that *could* be instantiated
just once.

Anyways - if that's "full-virtual" - then how about a
"little-bit-better-virtualization-than-currently-exists-without-breaking-the
-system-and-without-going-bald-virtualization" ;-)

Does the potential of what I mentioned - having the main data repositories
for a list all prefixed inside of mailman by  "foo.com/" exist??? Is the
underlaying structure of mailman laid out to minimize these changes if I
went ahead and started to patch them myself?

Or am I dreaming of a utopia that can not exist?




From scott-brown@home.com  Wed Feb 21 00:33:05 2001
From: scott-brown@home.com (Scott Brown)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:33:05 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] RE: [Mailman-Users] COMPLETELY Virtual mailing lists....
In-Reply-To: <3A92F3F2.B35E7110@pcraft.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c09b9d$dbceae60$0401a8c0@ibmpeers>

> Depends on how 'virtual' your setup is, and I suspect, it
> also depends on the MTA.

A single instance of sendmail (8.5.5) deals with all my virtual domains...
and hands off to the lists as defined by /etc/aliases (after the incoming
mail has been mashed into the resulting list name)

> I have three domains sitting on one machine and mailman
> installed for each one (meaning, three copies of mailman).

For a small number of hosts, I could deal with that... but I intend to
increase my number of virts.

> Each vhost has it's own web address, and crontask.  And I
> can have the same list name under all three vhosts and it
> works.

Eeek... I wasnt hoping to go that far... I was thinking more like one
central mailman process (like exists now) with the unique data stores
segmented by virtual host.

> I run sendmail as my MTA, and using its virtusertable
> feature, combined with aliases, each list knows where
> to go, what to do and what domain to use.

What I've got right now is a pseudo virtusertable setup (it's a leased
server - setup like the servers that the company I'm leasing from sets up
their own...) that hands off to /etc/aliases

so inbound mail to listname@virtualhost1.com

	--> listname (in /etc/aliases)

		--> | ../post listname

But of course, since listname in /etc/aliases is unique to the box, I'm
unable to assign that to another domain that may want that name as well.

Thats why I originally was prefixing the list name with the domain... but
thats ugly when you get

	thislongdomainname.com_help@thislongdomainname.com


OR am I just missing the boat somewhere??



From jarrell@vt.edu  Wed Feb 21 01:54:37 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:54:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] COMPLETELY Virtual mailing lists....
In-Reply-To: <006901c09b9c$3a117540$0401a8c0@ibmpeers>
References: <14994.65156.727101.701298@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010220205230.030bc950@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 07:21 PM 2/20/01 -0500, Scott Brown wrote:
>Isnt that kinda wasteful of system resources?  (I'm from a mainframe
>background back in the days where 1meg of memory was a huge untapped
>resource)
>
>I mean - three copies of sendmail - each consuming 'x' bytes of main memory
>+ swapped isnt very much - but if I've got 200+ domains on a server (I
>dont - but I hope to one day ;-) then thats 200x the minimum memory
>footprint that I want to give up to a routine that *could* be instantiated
>just once.

You did mean "mailman" where you put "sendmail" up there, right?
Because sendmail certainly has all the virtual hosting built in already, no
need to have multiple daemons running.  (In fact, I'm not sure how you
would; you need some kind of master that figured out what port the "other"
sendmail was on...)

Remember that much of the system will end up in shared memory anyway.
It's not as bad as it sounds.  None of this stuff stays resident anyway (well,
not until the 2.1 qrunner...)



From kambiz@colltech.com  Wed Feb 21 14:18:13 2001
From: kambiz@colltech.com (Kambiz Aghaiepour)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:18:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Fwd: URGENT: Something in message is breaking
 mailman!]
References: <3A92F3EF.66784F9C@collectivetech.com> <14994.64648.127065.55403@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <3A93CE25.B52087FC@collectivetech.com>

Simple!  Thanks. That does the trick. Now I need to send the postmaster of the
site generating the broken headers an email letting them know of the problem.

Do you think this change in Netscape.py will be made permanently for future
releases of Mailman?

Kambiz

"Barry A. Warsaw" wrote:
> 
> >>>>> "KA" == Kambiz Aghaiepour  writes:
> 
>     KA> Actually, I've been able to track this down to a problem in
>     KA> the python library mimetools.py.  The message that causes
>     KA> problems has a header as such:
> 
>     | Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status
>     |         boundary="-------=_2EF51FF1.3FFF45E0"
> 
>     KA> And if you notice, the report-type value is not terminated
>     KA> with a ';' character. As a result, the value gets set to:
> 
> I'd call this a bug in the Netscape.py bounce detector, not in
> mimetools.py.  The reason is that your message is not compliant with
> the MIME RFC 1341, which requires the semi-colon separator between
> parameters.  It is correct that rfc822.Message.getparam('boundary')
> returns None in this case.
> 
> What's broken is that Netscape.py should make sure the boundary is not
> None before it tries to use pass it to mimetools.
> 
> Here's a patch against Mailman 2.0.1.
> -Barry
> 
> -------------------- snip snip --------------------
> Index: Netscape.py
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /cvsroot/mailman/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/Netscape.py,v
> retrieving revision 1.5
> diff -u -r1.5 Netscape.py
> --- Netscape.py 2000/06/20 05:40:36     1.5
> +++ Netscape.py 2001/02/20 23:23:06
> @@ -51,6 +51,8 @@
>      if msg.getmaintype() <> 'multipart':
>          return None
>      boundary = msg.getparam('boundary')
> +    if boundary is None:
> +        return None
>      msg.fp.seek(0)
>      mfile = multifile.MultiFile(msg.fp)
>      mfile.push(boundary)

-- 
\o__O  o    -=<  Kambiz Aghaiepour - (919)593-1964   >=-    o   o
  \_  /|\   -=<  Senior Consultant - The Collective  >=-   //\ //\
   |\  |\   -=<  mailto:kambiz@collectivetech.com    >=-    //  //
  / /  |/   -=<  http://www.collectivetech.com/      >=-    |\  ||


From barry@digicool.com  Wed Feb 21 04:13:00 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:13:00 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14995.16460.287020.272723@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> Jeez, Barry, that itty-bitty change you made last night to not
    RJ> import _ into the namespace by default broke a *lot* of
    RJ> things...

I did that on purpose! :)  Explicit is better than implicit.

>>>>> "TW" == Thomas Wouters  writes:

    TW> It's probably safe to assume that anything that imports
    TW> gettext needs to be modified to import _ explicitly, but I'll
    TW> let Barry draw that conclusion :-)

Actually, Mailman.i18n._() tries to improve on gettext._ by adding the
new sys._getframe() hack to make the marked strings more succinct.  In
other words, where you'd have to write (using gettext as _):

    _('The list %(listname)s has %(membercnt)s non-digest members' %
      {'listname' : mlist.real_name(),
       'membercnt': count_of_non_digest_members(mlist),
       })

You can now write:

    listname = mlist.real_name()
    membercnt = count_of_non_digest_members(mlist)
    _('The list %(listname)s has %(membercnt)s non-digest members')

You have to use string-dict interpolation because the order of words
may be different in different languages.  But it seems ridiculous to
have to write the varnames twice as in the first example (the second
looks worse than it is in practice, because usually the variables you
want to interpolate into the string are already present as local
variables or arguments).

Most modules therefore will "from Mailman.i18n import _" but Errors.py
skips the from...import style to avoid circular imports.

BTW, thanks for the patch Ron.  I've just applied it and will now
review it, but checking in the changes may have to wait.  Seems SF is
refusing my ssh pubkey at the moment.

-Barry


From marc_news@valinux.com  Wed Feb 21 04:34:57 2001
From: marc_news@valinux.com (Marc MERLIN)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:34:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
In-Reply-To: <14994.42843.580459.669272@anthem.wooz.org>; from barry@digicool.com on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:20:27PM -0500
References:  <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk> <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net> <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl> <14994.42843.580459.669272@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <20010220203457.C4554@magic.merlins.org>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:20:27PM -0500, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:
>     F> The explanation is here; python2.0 does not have the right
>     F> license for Debian. Consequence: mailman is currently not
>     F> compatible with debian.
> 
>     F> http://lists.debian.org/debian-python-0102/msg00028.html
> 
> Two comments, which I'm not directing at the Debian folks because they
> need to make their own decisions, and because I don't know who at
> Debian to direct these to.
> 
> First, I don't buy the backwards compatibility argument.  Yes, some
> code broke, but it was broken anyway (people using undocumented APIs).
> The broken code is easily fixed.

You're right and that's not it.
For instance  bash2 wasn't fully  compatible with  bash1, but while  Red Hat
never had the balls  to push bash2 as default bash,  debian did, even though
it broke a few things that were really errors in the user scripts.

The problem is that if the license  was categorized as non free according to
Debian's free  software guidelines, they  fork the  package so that  you can
decide to run python from debian main, or python2 from non-free.
Had they called python2, python, there would  have been no way for a user to
keep the  'free' python if  he/she had non-free  in his/her list  of package
sources.

This is merely a packaging issue.

Marc

PS: don't flame me about what's free  or non free, I know nothing about this
specific  issue, I'm  just explaining  what  the technical  reasons for  the
package split would be.
-- 
Microsoft is to operating systems & security ....
                                      .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
  
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   |   Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key


From barry@digicool.com  Wed Feb 21 04:37:17 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:37:17 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] print >> sys.stderr does not compile
References: 
 <200102200952.JAA03312@inputplus.demon.co.uk>
 <20010220114750.A17642@orwell.bok.net>
 <20010220123922.B13911@xs4all.nl>
 <14994.42843.580459.669272@anthem.wooz.org>
 <20010220203457.C4554@magic.merlins.org>
Message-ID: <14995.17917.807172.930808@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "MM" == Marc MERLIN  writes:

    MM> PS: don't flame me about what's free or non free, I know
    MM> nothing about this specific issue, I'm just explaining what
    MM> the technical reasons for the package split would be.

Thanks, very helpful!

-Barry


From claw@kanga.nu  Wed Feb 21 06:33:38 2001
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:33:38 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Direct injection into hold queue
Message-ID: <13260.982737218@kanga.nu>

I've come up with a slightly non-standard need:

  I need to able to side-line messages in the hold queue (basically
  take them out of the queue without approving/rejecting/discarding
  them), and to later put them back into the hold queue so I can
  then do whatever to them.

Is there an elegant way to do this (I didn't see anything obvious)?

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From barry@digicool.com  Wed Feb 21 14:59:47 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:59:47 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Fwd: URGENT: Something in message is breaking
 mailman!]
References: <3A92F3EF.66784F9C@collectivetech.com>
 <14994.64648.127065.55403@anthem.wooz.org>
 <3A93CE25.B52087FC@collectivetech.com>
Message-ID: <14995.55267.510346.407099@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "KA" == Kambiz Aghaiepour  writes:

    KA> Simple!  Thanks. That does the trick. Now I need to send the
    KA> postmaster of the site generating the broken headers an email
    KA> letting them know of the problem.

Cool.

    KA> Do you think this change in Netscape.py will be made
    KA> permanently for future releases of Mailman?

If there is a 2.0.2 release, it'll be part of it.  The patch is
unnecessary for 2.1.

-Barry


From chris@greatbridge.com  Wed Feb 21 13:32:44 2001
From: chris@greatbridge.com (Chris Ryan)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:32:44 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman + PostgreSQL
Message-ID: <3A93C37C.7A3928C4@greatbridge.com>

Hello all,

	I've been using Mailman on our web site for open source development of
"serious business software." http://www.greatbridge.org/. We are
interested in seeing Mailman have a PostgreSQL database back end (and
further in the future PHP front end web tools.)  I have been given
permission to start working on this as soon as I have completed my
current project (should be done this week).

	I've started to familiarize myself with the general flow of Mailman. I
have not had a chance to get into the current data handling classes but,
correct me if i'm wrong, I believe modifying the code to use a database
should be fairly contained. In the process of doing this I want to do
everything in a such a manner that is best for contributing back to the
Mailman project.

	Any feedback anyone can offer on this subject would be wonderful.
Thanks in advance.

Chris Ryan
chris@greatbridge.com


From ricardo@rixhq.nu  Wed Feb 21 19:51:49 2001
From: ricardo@rixhq.nu (Ricardo Kustner)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:51:49 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman + PostgreSQL
In-Reply-To: <3A93C37C.7A3928C4@greatbridge.com>; from chris@greatbridge.com on Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 08:32:44AM -0500
References: <3A93C37C.7A3928C4@greatbridge.com>
Message-ID: <20010221205149.B20988@rix.rixhq.nu>

On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 08:32:44AM -0500, Chris Ryan wrote:
> 	I've been using Mailman on our web site for open source development of
> "serious business software." http://www.greatbridge.org/. We are
> interested in seeing Mailman have a PostgreSQL database back end (and
> further in the future PHP front end web tools.)  I have been given
> permission to start working on this as soon as I have completed my
> current project (should be done this week).
> 	I've started to familiarize myself with the general flow of Mailman. I
> have not had a chance to get into the current data handling classes but,
> correct me if i'm wrong, I believe modifying the code to use a database
> should be fairly contained. In the process of doing this I want to do
> everything in a such a manner that is best for contributing back to the
> Mailman project.

I think it would be great if you could start this up... but please consider creating
the database interface in such a way that it should be easy replace it with
other database engines (LDAP, mysql and anything else available in Python).
If you check out the archives, this has been discussed before but as far as I
know we didn't see any real results yet... 
Btw, if you look at the Mailman designnotes you can see that the centralizeddatabase
has been planned for 3.0 ... maybe it's a good moment to start discussing it anyway.

Ricardo.

--


From John Morton   Wed Feb 21 22:02:43 2001
From: John Morton  (John Morton)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:02:43 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman + PostgreSQL
In-Reply-To: <3A93C37C.7A3928C4@greatbridge.com>
References: <3A93C37C.7A3928C4@greatbridge.com>
Message-ID: <200102212202.LAA30429@vesta.plain.co.nz>

On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:32:44 -0500 Chris Ryan  wrote=
:

> Hello all,
>=20
> =09I've been using Mailman on our web site for open source development of
> "serious business software." http://www.greatbridge.org/. We are
> interested in seeing Mailman have a PostgreSQL database back end (and
> further in the future PHP front end web tools.)  I have been given
> permission to start working on this as soon as I have completed my
> current project (should be done this week).
>=20
> =09I've started to familiarize myself with the general flow of Mailman. I
> have not had a chance to get into the current data handling classes but,
> correct me if i'm wrong, I believe modifying the code to use a database
> should be fairly contained. In the process of doing this I want to do
> everything in a such a manner that is best for contributing back to the
> Mailman project.
>=20
> =09Any feedback anyone can offer on this subject would be wonderful.
> Thanks in advance.

Rather than hack in postgreSQL support directly, it's probably a better
idea to wrap the whole data storage system in an abstraction layer,
provide a couple of standard implementations (ie pickled objects and the
postgreSQL system you're looking into to) and allow people to integrate
their own storage system to suit their needs. Personally I want to place
Mailman's data into a ZODB so I can get seemless Zope intergration.=20

Zpatterns might be a good place to start, as far as a data abstraction
layer goes.

http://www.zope.org/Members/pje/Wikis/ZPatterns/HomePage

John






From davek@mail.commercedata.com  Wed Feb 21 23:20:40 2001
From: davek@mail.commercedata.com (Dave Klingler)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:20:40 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman + PostgreSQL
In-Reply-To: <200102212202.LAA30429@vesta.plain.co.nz> from "John Morton" at Feb 22, 2001 11:02:43 AM
Message-ID: <200102212320.QAA02618@mail.commercedata.com>

Hi Chris.  

On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:32:44 -0500 Chris Ryan  wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> 	I've been using Mailman on our web site for open source development of
> "serious business software." http://www.greatbridge.org/. We are
> interested in seeing Mailman have a PostgreSQL database back end (and
> further in the future PHP front end web tools.)  I have been given
> permission to start working on this as soon as I have completed my
> current project (should be done this week).

I think that's very cool.  I've been trying to work toward that myself.  I
brought up Mailman on a virtfs machine (virtfs is a script package that uses
chroot to create virtual servers) last month in conjunction with two websites
based on PHP, PostgreSQL, and Perl.  The finished product was a bear to get
working, and I'm hoping to go back and replace a fair portion of it with a 
PHP/Postgres backend.  Mailman is not very friendly to chrooted environments
because the configuration information is hard-coded into so many different
scripts.

My suggestion would be to use an abstraction layer similar to the one that
Tim Perdue uses on SourceForge with PHP, if not the one he actually uses.
Tim was able to switch SourceForge and PHPBuilder over from MySQL to 
Postgres pretty quickly, and I found that impressive.

I haven't begun this process yet.  I'll be interested to follow what you're
doing, and maybe at some point I'll be able to help out.  Chuq has also 
mentioned working on a database backend, possibly with Apple's Enterprise
Object Frameworks.

I've thought about just working my way through the scripts in the cgi-bin
directory, giving them all the same names and arguments but rewriting them
in PHP or Python to use Postgres instead.  I hate to mix PHP with Python, but 
PHP does seem to work very nicely for web apps.  I'd just be grateful to have 
it all working reliably instead of breaking every time I need to change 
something.  I've got something going on right now that causes my webscripts
to go off to lunch without leaving anything in the error log.  Darn it.
  
> 	I've started to familiarize myself with the general flow of Mailman. I
> have not had a chance to get into the current data handling classes but,
> correct me if i'm wrong, I believe modifying the code to use a database
> should be fairly contained. In the process of doing this I want to do
> everything in a such a manner that is best for contributing back to the
> Mailman project.

There's a nice list of all the PHP Postgres functions at 
www.php.net/manual/en/ref.pgsql.php (in about the middle of the page).  I had
looked at that list and thought that it made a nice start for an abstraction
layer, whether written in PHP or Python.

Good luck!
Dave Klingler


From barry@digicool.com  Wed Feb 21 23:33:20 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:33:20 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216164232.03293950@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14996.20544.297076.343250@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> Since I deleted the templates/en dir I had created to test the
    RJ> fallback, newlang wouldn't work, because there's no en
    RJ> directory to copy to the new list...  It needs to catch the
    RJ> fact that ok_langs is empty before the loop that prints which
    RJ> languages were installed runs, otherwise the status message
    RJ> looks stupid :-).

Okay, I've fixed those in my working copy.

    RJ> Perhaps instead of saying "language not supported" it say "No
    RJ> template directory for language."

Good point, I've made that change.
    
    RJ> Newlang also has a nasty habit of leaving the list locked if
    RJ> anything goes wrong.

Arg!  Okay, I've added the necessary armor to it and rmlang (although
I'm not sure the list needs to be locked for rmlang).

    RJ> w.r.t your comment about needing to look at the call to
    RJ> HTMLFormatter. You do need to init it, because
    RJ> mlist._template_path is used by it, and by newlang, and it's
    RJ> *not* defined in MailList; HTMLFormatter adds it to the object
    RJ> when it runs.

I'm not sure why _template_dir is a temporary attribute (i.e. starts
with an _ so it doesn't persist).  Seems to me the proper fix is to
either make _template_dir a permanent attribute, or simply access it
via a method and calculate it on the fly.  Actually, in light of the
below, that might be the right thing.
    
    RJ> People need to install EN support into each list they own.
    RJ> Which they can do by hand, or with newlang.

    RJ> Anyone that's already done any language changes though will
    RJ> find their local language sitting in the english
    RJ> subdir... Either way, there's copius notage in the readme
    RJ> necessary to explain where things are going and why...

We have to make it so that if a MM2.0 user upgrades and never cares
about multilingual support, things Just Keep Working without anything
more they explicitly need to do.

This means either our upgrade script sets things up minimally, or we
make sure everything falls back to the existing templates if en is
never installed.  Your second point implies then that if they've made
their own language mods to those templates, that language will be the
default (and the list config will look a bit strange when it says that
they're using English as the default language).

Any opinions?  Do we need to create the en subdir upon upgrade or can
we use any existing templates as a fallback?

-Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Wed Feb 21 23:33:39 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:33:39 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216211533.04a80cc0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14996.20563.478487.947229@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    RJ> Barry, just in case you haven't done it, and it helps you, I
    RJ> uploaded a patch to 103852, which is a diff against my current
    RJ> snapshot; it's all the imports, plus the typo in newlang.

Thanks, that does help!


From jarrell@vt.edu  Wed Feb 21 23:53:40 2001
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:53:40 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
In-Reply-To: <14996.20544.297076.343250@anthem.wooz.org>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216164232.03293950@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010221185038.02d37130@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 06:33 PM 2/21/01 -0500, you wrote:

>Any opinions?  Do we need to create the en subdir upon upgrade or can
>we use any existing templates as a fallback?

Well, if we install the "en" directory, the other problems won't happen (ref. the
other message I posted where I tracked down why GetConfig was blowing up
on my older lists; it tries to do an index on a null list, because there are no
subdirs on the list).  I'm thinking it's cleaner to just force the template files
into an en directory.  Technically, the current officially supported language
is english, so that's not bad.  Even if they made their existing files be swahili,
they'll still work, they'll just show up as english.  People who have been hacking
in their own language support probably are smart enough to look at the readme
for a comment about adding new languages, or can figure it out...



From barry@digicool.com  Thu Feb 22 00:03:13 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:03:13 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] i18n imports
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010216164232.03293950@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010221185038.02d37130@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <14996.22337.657025.978147@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "RJ" == Ron Jarrell  writes:

    >> Any opinions?  Do we need to create the en subdir upon upgrade
    >> or can we use any existing templates as a fallback?

    RJ> Well, if we install the "en" directory, the other problems
    RJ> won't happen (ref. the other message I posted where I tracked
    RJ> down why GetConfig was blowing up on my older lists; it tries
    RJ> to do an index on a null list, because there are no subdirs on
    RJ> the list).

I've got a workaround for that but still, you might be right to just
force an `en' subdir on upgrade.

-Barry


From alessio@sevenseas.org  Thu Feb 22 09:31:13 2001
From: alessio@sevenseas.org (Alessio Bragadini)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:31:13 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-i18n] Testing multilanguages
In-Reply-To: <14996.20544.297076.343250@anthem.wooz.org>; from barry@digicool.com on Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 06:33:20PM -0500
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010216161254.0301b8f0@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> <5.0.2.1.2.20010216164232.03293950@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> <14996.20544.297076.343250@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <20010222113113.N702@abulafia.sevenseas.org>

We are all very excited (well, at least my friends and me are :-)
about the i18n features upcoming. Since most of the translations are
complete, how can we help? Is it possible to test them? Not only
because we cannot wait (as usual) but mainly because it could be
useful to add some extra eyes on it.

Sorry if it's a FAQ, I've been on the list only for a while.

-- 
Alessio F. Bragadini		alessio@sevenseas.org

La Citta` Invisibile: notizie e dibattiti per i cittadini della Rete
http://www.citinv.it


From claw@kanga.nu  Thu Feb 22 18:54:47 2001
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:54:47 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman + PostgreSQL
In-Reply-To: Message from Chris Ryan 
 of "Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:32:44 EST." <3A93C37C.7A3928C4@greatbridge.com>
References: <3A93C37C.7A3928C4@greatbridge.com>
Message-ID: <30049.982868087@kanga.nu>

On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:32:44 -0500 
Chris Ryan  wrote:

> Hello all, I've been using Mailman on our web site for open source
> development of "serious business software." 
> http://www.greatbridge.org/. We are interested in seeing Mailman
> have a PostgreSQL database back end (and further in the future PHP
> front end web tools.)  I have been given permission to start
> working on this as soon as I have completed my current project
> (should be done this week).

I would start out by reading the traffic among Chuq, Barry, and I at
the end of last year and early this year on proposed V3
architectures.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From Alok.Malik@metamorgs.com  Mon Feb 26 12:43:08 2001
From: Alok.Malik@metamorgs.com (Alok Malik)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:13:08 +0530
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] confirm 227131
Message-ID: <3BB00261FED5D41183FD00104B93C2604D6A91@exdel01.del.mgsl.com>

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C09FF1.AC06B7B0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"


------_=_NextPart_001_01C09FF1.AC06B7B0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"






confirm 227131





------_=_NextPart_001_01C09FF1.AC06B7B0--


From darrell@grumblesmurf.net  Mon Feb 26 22:24:40 2001
From: darrell@grumblesmurf.net (Darrell Fuhriman)
Date: 26 Feb 2001 14:24:40 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] two thoughts on the archiver
Message-ID: 

In 2.0.1 pipermail.py takes any user-included Reply-To header and
uses that the address of the sender in the archives.

In other words, if I post a message to list that looks like this:

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:03:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Darrell Fuhriman 
Subject: something really neat!
To: moderated-list@grumblesmurf.net
Reply-To: not-moderated-list@elsewhere.com

in the Archives, this gets re-written to be:

Darrell Fuhriman 

I maintain that this behavior is incorrect.

For instance, I just started a moderated, announce-only list.  I
would like to give the poster the option of redirecting followups
for discussion to another list.

I'm happy to write a patch to change the behavior, but I'd like
to know what folks think the correct behavior should be.

I think that including the Reply-To as a separate header is the
appropriate thing to do, but I'm soliciting other opinions.

Secondly, archiving is a big old pig and slows down list
processing.  Would it be possible to re-write the code so that
the archiver forks off?  Once again, I'm willing to do it, but I
want to make sure that people will be happy with the design.

Darrell


From barry@digicool.com  Mon Feb 26 22:29:37 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:29:37 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] two thoughts on the archiver
References: 
Message-ID: <15002.55505.808803.310440@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "DF" == Darrell Fuhriman  writes:

    DF> In 2.0.1 pipermail.py takes any user-included Reply-To header
    DF> and uses that the address of the sender in the archives.

    DF> In other words, if I post a message to list that looks like
    DF> this:

    | Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:03:03 -0800 (PST)
    | From: Darrell Fuhriman 
    | Subject: something really neat!
    | To: moderated-list@grumblesmurf.net
    | Reply-To: not-moderated-list@elsewhere.com

    DF> in the Archives, this gets re-written to be:

    DF> Darrell Fuhriman 

    DF> I maintain that this behavior is incorrect.

Agreed.

    DF> For instance, I just started a moderated, announce-only list.
    DF> I would like to give the poster the option of redirecting
    DF> followups for discussion to another list.

    DF> I'm happy to write a patch to change the behavior, but I'd
    DF> like to know what folks think the correct behavior should be.

I think that it should use the address provided in the From: line.  A
patch would be great.

    DF> I think that including the Reply-To as a separate header is
    DF> the appropriate thing to do, but I'm soliciting other
    DF> opinions.

    DF> Secondly, archiving is a big old pig and slows down list
    DF> processing.  Would it be possible to re-write the code so that
    DF> the archiver forks off?  Once again, I'm willing to do it, but
    DF> I want to make sure that people will be happy with the design.

No need.  Things are going to be much different in 2.1.  Archiving is
no longer in the critical path for general list delivery.

-Barry


From seidl@vex.cs.colorado.edu  Tue Feb 27 15:17:10 2001
From: seidl@vex.cs.colorado.edu (Matthew Seidl)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:17:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug/Request for change
Message-ID: <200102271517.f1RFHBI00536@vex.cs.colorado.edu>

Over the weekend one of the uesers on one of my lists had both their
DNS servers go down.  This means that any attempt to deliver mail to
them had a 4 minute DNS failure timeout.

This went fine, till about 5 messages for them accumulated in the
qfiles directory.  Then each qrunner that started up would try those 5
messages first, fail, and exceed its 15 minutes of runtime.  This
cycle would repeat forever.

It seems to me that qrunner should at least try messages in a most
recent first order, instead of oldest first.  But that might still
lead to starvation of some messages in the queue.

A better approach would be for the qrunner to leave a file around that
said where in the queue it had gotten to, so the next qrunner process
could start on the next message in the queue.  This should lead to the
whole queue being serviced before any elements are serviced a second
time.  Does this make sense?

I'm too new to mailman and python to take a stab at this myself, but I
wanted to report the bug.  If others agree that its a bug, and no one
else takes a shot at it, I might.  But it will require some
non-trivial modifications to qrunner I believe.

-=- Matthew L. Seidl 		email: seidl@cs.colorado.edu                =-=
=-= Graduate Student 			Project . . . What Project?	    -=-
-=- http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~seidl/Home.html          -Morrow Quotes     =-=
=-= http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~seidl/lawsuit                               -=-


From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 27 15:26:31 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:26:31 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug/Request for change
References: <200102271517.f1RFHBI00536@vex.cs.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <15003.50983.82107.47925@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "MS" == Matthew Seidl  writes:

    MS> It seems to me that qrunner should at least try messages in a
    MS> most recent first order, instead of oldest first.  But that
    MS> might still lead to starvation of some messages in the queue.

The easiest fix is to add a `shuffle' (random-ish sort) of the files
found in the qfile directory.  If you're using Python 2.0, you could
add a couple of lines to main() in qrunner to call random.shuffle() on
the files returned by os.listdir().  random.shuffle() isn't in Python
1.5.2 though, so if you're using that version, you'll need to grow
your own.

Although Mailman 2.1 will work very different in many ways, it will
utilize random.shuffle() to improve the chances that at least every
file will get an equal look.

-Barry


From chris@greatbridge.com  Tue Feb 27 15:56:04 2001
From: chris@greatbridge.com (Chris Ryan)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:56:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Problems with latest CVS version
Message-ID: <3A9BCE14.7471B94A@greatbridge.com>

I setup the latest of mailman from cvs yesterday and I'm having some
difficulty getting it all working.

My first problem was with /scripts/mailcmd on line 49:

print >> sys.stderr 'Mailman error: mailcmd got bad listname: %s\n%s' \

                   ^ -- missing comma after sys.stderr

I also had a problem with the mimelib import where everything worked
from from the command line but wouldn't work from the cron or when
sendmail called the wrapper commands. I fixed this by creating a soft
link:
$ ln -s /usr/local/lib/python2.0/site-packages/mimelib
/home/mailman/Mailman/mimelib

The problem I'm currently having now is also in mailcmd and mailowner
with the following error:

mailcmd(12300):   File "/home/mailman/scripts/mailcmd", line 69, in ?
mailcmd(12300):      main()
mailcmd(12300):   File "/home/mailman/scripts/mailcmd", line 53, in main
mailcmd(12300):      msg = Message.Message(sys.stdin)
mailcmd(12300): TypeError :  too many arguments; expected 1, got 2

I looked into it and found that Mailman.Message.Message inherited from
mimelib.Message.Message had __init__(self) and no other means of parsing
the actual message. I would think that somewhere Parser should be used
to parse the message but I'm not sure where or how to maintain the
Mailman.Message.Message functionality that was added in the inheritance.

Does anyone know how this should be fixed or what I did wrong? I have
the latest of mimelib 0.2 installed.

Chris Ryan
chris@greatbridge.com


From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 27 16:00:27 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:00:27 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Problems with latest CVS version
References: <3A9BCE14.7471B94A@greatbridge.com>
Message-ID: <15003.53019.618520.413213@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "CR" == Chris Ryan  writes:

    CR> Does anyone know how this should be fixed or what I did wrong?
    CR> I have the latest of mimelib 0.2 installed.

I'd say wait until the next huge round of checkins.  I've got lots of
fixes for cvs problems waiting in the wings.

-Barry


From chris@greatbridge.com  Tue Feb 27 16:51:16 2001
From: chris@greatbridge.com (Chris Ryan)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:51:16 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Problems with latest CVS version
References: <3A9BCE14.7471B94A@greatbridge.com> <15003.53019.618520.413213@anthem.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <3A9BDB04.1259673D@greatbridge.com>

Do you have a timeframe on when the next big commit is going to be?

Thanks in advance.

Chris Ryan
chris@greatbridge.com

"Barry A. Warsaw" wrote:
> 
> >>>>> "CR" == Chris Ryan  writes:
> 
>     CR> Does anyone know how this should be fixed or what I did wrong?
>     CR> I have the latest of mimelib 0.2 installed.
> 
> I'd say wait until the next huge round of checkins.  I've got lots of
> fixes for cvs problems waiting in the wings.
> 
> -Barry


From barry@digicool.com  Tue Feb 27 16:54:19 2001
From: barry@digicool.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:54:19 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Problems with latest CVS version
References: <3A9BCE14.7471B94A@greatbridge.com>
 <15003.53019.618520.413213@anthem.wooz.org>
 <3A9BDB04.1259673D@greatbridge.com>
Message-ID: <15003.56251.42126.146665@anthem.wooz.org>

>>>>> "CR" == Chris Ryan  writes:

    CR> Do you have a timeframe on when the next big commit is going
    CR> to be?

Sometime today or tomorrow.


From claw@kanga.nu  Wed Feb 28 03:11:30 2001
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:11:30 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug/Request for change
In-Reply-To: Message from Matthew Seidl 
 of "Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:17:10 MST." <200102271517.f1RFHBI00536@vex.cs.colorado.edu>
References: <200102271517.f1RFHBI00536@vex.cs.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <2618.983329890@kanga.nu>

On Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:17:10 -0700 
Matthew Seidl  wrote:

> Over the weekend one of the uesers on one of my lists had both
> their DNS servers go down.  This means that any attempt to deliver
> mail to them had a 4 minute DNS failure timeout.

> This went fine, till about 5 messages for them accumulated in the
> qfiles directory.  Then each qrunner that started up would try
> those 5 messages first, fail, and exceed its 15 minutes of
> runtime.  This cycle would repeat forever.

> It seems to me that qrunner should at least try messages in a most
> recent first order, instead of oldest first.  But that might still
> lead to starvation of some messages in the queue.

You are attempting to solve problems with an incoprrectly configured
MTA by changing Mailman.  REconfigure your MTA to not do DNS
verifications on messages received from your list server (likely
localhost).

-- 
J C Lawrence                                       claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--