From bwarsaw@beopen.com  Sun Oct  1 03:48:24 2000
From: bwarsaw@beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:48:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bug report
References: <00b501c02b2d$fe491920$6401a8c0@windows>
Message-ID: <14806.42488.3514.826412@anthem.concentric.net>

Long fixed in Mailman 2.0 beta series.


From jarrell@vt.edu  Sun Oct  1 04:46:07 2000
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:46:07 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] List-* header suggestion
In-Reply-To: <E13f2oH-0003WB-00@rioja.localnet>
References: <Message from Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com>
 <p04330103b5fa619f6859@[209.239.169.197]>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20000930234144.03b36a10@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 05:14 PM 9/29/00 +0100, Nigel Metheringham wrote:

>jarrell@vt.edu said:
>> Umm, the headers *are* folded.. In the very note that arrived from
>> you, they were folded that way.  Unless a friendly MTA on the way to
>> me folded them for me, or unfolded them for you... 
>
>
>chuqui@plaidworks.com said:
>> they aren't on my site, ron -- it' spossible you have an MTA that
>> *is* folding them for you. Does it do laundry, too?
>
>> Folding them would be a good idea, IMHO. 
>
>I see the ones on the mailman-* lists as folded.  I see the ones from 
>the exim lists (again Mailman 2.0beta6) as unfolded.  An MTA is playing 
>silly games with the headers which is normally the sort of gratuitous 
>fiddling that sendmail does... except the system that is playing games 
>appears to be a postfix one (I expected better from Wietse).

Ok... For the curious, in my case at least, it appears to be a sendmail 8.11 thing.
I posted a test message to a newsgroup which happens to be echoed by both my
production mailman server, and my test server.  They're running on identical os's, 
sendmail versions, etc.  In this case, both are still at 8.9.3 cause i haven't had the
time to upgrade them, and they're not broke :-).  But the headers weren't folded
from my copy from the test machine, and were from the production machine.
The difference being the production machine happens to be set to use a smarthost,
which I'd forgotten I did after the last time we moved our mail relay, and I wanted
to test it in a configuration where I owned both ends...  The mail relay runs 8.11.0.
So apparently 8.11.0 prettyfies the headers as they go by. All the headers; every
long header was wrapped with the "line break and whitespace" rfc wrapping.





From roy@lamrim.com  Sun Oct  1 07:01:32 2000
From: roy@lamrim.com (Roy Harvey)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:01:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Great Job!
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000930230132.008628c0@lamrim.com>

Dearest Cabal --

I just want to say that Mailman is a fantastic peice of engineering. Easy
to setup, clean documentation, awesome feature set -- WOW!

Sincerely,

Roy Harvey

roy@lamrim.com
http://www.lamrim.com/
Tibetan Buddhist Internet Radio



From bwarsaw@beopen.com  Sun Oct  1 15:43:33 2000
From: bwarsaw@beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 10:43:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Great Job!
References: <3.0.5.32.20000930230132.008628c0@lamrim.com>
Message-ID: <14807.19861.28294.880011@anthem.concentric.net>

Thanks very much!


From mentor@alb-net.com  Tue Oct  3 03:10:10 2000
From: mentor@alb-net.com (Mentor Cana)
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 22:10:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "download the full raw archive"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010022206280.5021-100000@alb-net.com>

Doesn't this link run contrary to the "obscure_addresses" Option?

Even if I have the obscure_addresses Option set to YES, the e-mail
addresses of public archives can be still harvested by various robots out
there.

later,
Mentor



From juergen.erhard@gmx.net  Tue Oct  3 00:04:40 2000
From: juergen.erhard@gmx.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=FCrgen_A=2E_Erhard=22?=)
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 01:04:40 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Itchy, and thus subscribing
In-Reply-To: <20000913015220.E14713@aphid.net> (message from Jeff Waugh on
 Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:52:20 +1100)
References: <20000913010959.A14713@aphid.net> <14782.17044.337048.929318@anthem.concentric.net> <20000913015220.E14713@aphid.net>
Message-ID: <03102000.1@wanderer.local.jae.ddns.org>

--pgp-sign-Multipart_Tue_Oct__3_01:04:33_2000-1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>>>>> "Jeff" =3D=3D Jeff Waugh <jdub@aphid.net> writes:

    >> Barry A. Warsaw wrote:
    >>=20
    >> It's not on the TODO list, because it's already in the codebase. :)
    >> Moderators can optionally forward a held message to any address they
    >> want.

    Jeff> *blush*

    Jeff> Tell me that's in the 2.0 releases and not 1.1... please! :)

Don't feel to bad, Barry probably borrowed Guido's time machine... ;-)

Bye, J

--=20
J=FCrgen A. Erhard    juergen.erhard@gmx.net   phone: (GERMANY) 0721 27326
     MARS: http://members.tripod.com/Juergen_Erhard/mars_index.html
                   The 80-20 rule for an NT project:
   20% time for real coding  --  80% time for working around NT bugs

--pgp-sign-Multipart_Tue_Oct__3_01:04:33_2000-1
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.3 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iEYEABECAAYFAjnZFIcACgkQN0B+CS56qs0TRgCfXzq6rBG5D/wJdmyqDxUCm3ic
9agAn0OaHFhSJ6yv/TljjJ/v8jp2Gqvx
=UGyt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--pgp-sign-Multipart_Tue_Oct__3_01:04:33_2000-1--


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Tue Oct  3 23:01:50 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:01:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] broken CVS!
Message-ID: <p04330122b60007b33216@[17.216.27.250]>

I just updated to the current CVS, and it's broken:

Traceback (innermost last):
   File "/home/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 85, in ?
     from Mailman import MailList
   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 45, in ?
     from Mailman.Archiver import Archiver
   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/__init__.py", line 17, in ?
     from Archiver import *
   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 33, in ?
     from Mailman import Mailbox
   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Mailbox.py", line 43
     <<<<<<< Mailbox.py
     ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax


-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

You seem a decent fellow. I hate to die.


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Tue Oct  3 23:08:05 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:08:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Cron <mailman@plaidworks> /usr/bin/python -S
 /home/mailman/cron/qrunner
In-Reply-To: <200010032201.e93M10r13238@plaidworks.com>
References: <200010032201.e93M10r13238@plaidworks.com>
Message-ID: <p04330123b60008e1791c@[17.216.27.250]>

Okay, I've tracked this down. Mailman had a probelm with the 
temporary patch I installed to fix the empty-archive thing, so it 
didn't patch in cleanly. when I updated to the CVS, the merge botched.

it's not a problem, if you installed the SECOND patch barry released, 
or didn't patch it at all.



At 3:01 PM -0700 10/3/00, Cron Daemon wrote:
>Traceback (innermost last):
>   File "/home/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 85, in ?
>     from Mailman import MailList
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 45, in ?
>     from Mailman.Archiver import Archiver
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/__init__.py", line 17, in ?
>     from Archiver import *
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 33, in ?
>     from Mailman import Mailbox
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Mailbox.py", line 43
>     <<<<<<< Mailbox.py
>     ^
>SyntaxError: invalid syntax

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

You seem a decent fellow. I hate to die.


From bwarsaw@beopen.com  Tue Oct  3 23:15:53 2000
From: bwarsaw@beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:15:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] broken CVS!
References: <p04330122b60007b33216@[17.216.27.250]>
Message-ID: <14810.23193.949608.60704@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    CVR> I just updated to the current CVS, and it's broken:

    CVR> Traceback (innermost last):
    CVR>    File "/home/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 85, in ?  from
    CVR> Mailman import MailList File
    CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 45, in ?  from
    CVR> Mailman.Archiver import Archiver File
    CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/__init__.py", line 17, in ?
    CVR> from Archiver import * File
    CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 33, in ?
    CVR> from Mailman import Mailbox File
    CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Mailbox.py", line 43 <<<<<<<
    CVR> Mailbox.py ^
    CVR> SyntaxError: invalid syntax

When you updated, did you see a file that got checked out with a `C'
status letter?  That means that something in your local version
conflicts with some changes in the master copy, and CVS can't resolve
it.  You have to resolve the conflicts manually.

-Barry


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Tue Oct  3 23:15:47 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:15:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] broken CVS!
In-Reply-To: <14810.23193.949608.60704@anthem.concentric.net>
References: <p04330122b60007b33216@[17.216.27.250]>
 <14810.23193.949608.60704@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <p04330124b6000afcf83d@[17.216.27.250]>

Yes -- it was an interim patch causing havoc.

gee, I think I'm learning python -- the hard way!


At 6:15 PM -0400 10/3/00, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:
>  >>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:
>
>     CVR> I just updated to the current CVS, and it's broken:
>
>     CVR> Traceback (innermost last):
>     CVR>    File "/home/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 85, in ?  from
>     CVR> Mailman import MailList File
>     CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 45, in ?  from
>     CVR> Mailman.Archiver import Archiver File
>     CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/__init__.py", line 17, in ?
>     CVR> from Archiver import * File
>     CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 33, in ?
>     CVR> from Mailman import Mailbox File
>     CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Mailbox.py", line 43 <<<<<<<
>     CVR> Mailbox.py ^
>     CVR> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
>
>When you updated, did you see a file that got checked out with a `C'
>status letter?  That means that something in your local version
>conflicts with some changes in the master copy, and CVS can't resolve
>it.  You have to resolve the conflicts manually.
>
>-Barry

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

You seem a decent fellow. I hate to die.


From Dan Mick <Dan.Mick@West.Sun.COM>  Tue Oct  3 23:20:16 2000
From: Dan Mick <Dan.Mick@West.Sun.COM> (Dan Mick)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:20:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] broken CVS!
Message-ID: <200010032219.PAA14252@utopia.west.sun.com>

> >>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:
> 
>     CVR> I just updated to the current CVS, and it's broken:
> 
>     CVR> Traceback (innermost last):
>     CVR>    File "/home/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 85, in ?  from
>     CVR> Mailman import MailList File
>     CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 45, in ?  from
>     CVR> Mailman.Archiver import Archiver File
>     CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/__init__.py", line 17, in ?
>     CVR> from Archiver import * File
>     CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 33, in ?
>     CVR> from Mailman import Mailbox File
>     CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Mailbox.py", line 43 <<<<<<<
>     CVR> Mailbox.py ^
>     CVR> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
> 
> When you updated, did you see a file that got checked out with a `C'
> status letter?  That means that something in your local version
> conflicts with some changes in the master copy, and CVS can't resolve
> it.  You have to resolve the conflicts manually.

Yeah, I hate that CVS is so silent about that.  I've taken to
doing "find . -type f | xargs grep '<<<<<'" every time I do
"cvs update" (in a script).  The stuff it leaves behind is *clearly*
not usable, so I think there should be a big huge warning when it
happens, and even an "invoke $EDITOR on the manual-merge-needy".
But that's me.




From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Tue Oct  3 23:21:10 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:21:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] broken CVS!
In-Reply-To: <200010032219.PAA14252@utopia.west.sun.com>
References: <200010032219.PAA14252@utopia.west.sun.com>
Message-ID: <p04330125b6000bf432da@[17.216.27.250]>

At 3:20 PM -0700 10/3/00, Dan Mick wrote:

>Yeah, I hate that CVS is so silent about that.  I've taken to
>doing "find . -type f | xargs grep '<<<<<'" every time I do
>"cvs update" (in a script).


good idea. Thanks, Dan. I made one other mistake -- I'm so used to 
having no problems that I dind't checkpoint either my lists or the 
source before updating. Oops. Fortunately, I *also* keep a generic, 
unpatched version of the source, so I was able to checkpoint that, do 
the CVS update, and then compare changes, which made the problem 
obvious.

Always, always, keep backups when hacking without a net. Or with a 
net. Nets fail, too. (grin)

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

You seem a decent fellow. I hate to die.


From bwarsaw@beopen.com  Wed Oct  4 06:59:09 2000
From: bwarsaw@beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 01:59:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] broken CVS!
References: <p04330122b60007b33216@[17.216.27.250]>
 <14810.23193.949608.60704@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p04330124b6000afcf83d@[17.216.27.250]>
Message-ID: <14810.50989.717090.300805@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    CVR> Yes -- it was an interim patch causing havoc.

    CVR> gee, I think I'm learning python -- the hard way!

You'll never look back! :)


From bwarsaw@beopen.com  Wed Oct  4 07:03:04 2000
From: bwarsaw@beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 02:03:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] broken CVS!
References: <200010032219.PAA14252@utopia.west.sun.com>
 <p04330125b6000bf432da@[17.216.27.250]>
Message-ID: <14810.51224.937111.279297@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    CVR> Always, always, keep backups when hacking without a net. Or
    CVR> with a net. Nets fail, too. (grin)

Heh.  I almost wasn't going to mention it, but I did a stupid thing
yesterday.  I accidently deleted my local working directory.  :(  Now,
I don't think I lost much because of course, there's a baseline in
CVS.  Fortunately the files I had changed but not yet checked in were
still in my XEmacs buffers, so I went to each and saved them out just
to be sure.  Like a big dummy, I didn't have the directories backed
up, so the one thing I lost is my extensive bounce collection, which I
use as a regression test. :(

Oh well.  Now if I could just get my zip drive working under Linux,
I'd be set.

-Barry


From thomas@xs4all.net  Wed Oct  4 07:33:31 2000
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:33:31 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] broken CVS!
In-Reply-To: <200010032219.PAA14252@utopia.west.sun.com>; from Dan.Mick@West.Sun.COM on Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 03:20:16PM -0700
References: <200010032219.PAA14252@utopia.west.sun.com>
Message-ID: <20001004083331.F12812@xs4all.nl>

On Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 03:20:16PM -0700, Dan Mick wrote:

> >     CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Mailbox.py", line 43 <<<<<<<

> Yeah, I hate that CVS is so silent about that.  I've taken to
> doing "find . -type f | xargs grep '<<<<<'" every time I do
> "cvs update" (in a script).  The stuff it leaves behind is *clearly*
> not usable, so I think there should be a big huge warning when it
> happens, and even an "invoke $EDITOR on the manual-merge-needy".
> But that's me.

It is pretty loud about it, actually. My cvs client shows 3 or 4 lines for
each failed merge ;) What I usually do, is 'cvs update' twice, so the 'C'
stands out more the second time. Alternatively, you can look for .#-files,
which CVS creates for conflicts.

-- 
Thomas Wouters <thomas@xs4all.net>

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From Ricardo Kustner <ricardo@rixhq.nu>  Thu Oct  5 09:13:58 2000
From: Ricardo Kustner <ricardo@rixhq.nu> (Ricardo Kustner)
Date: 05 Oct 2000 08:13:58 CEST
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] 2.0b6 & approval page forward function
Message-ID: <200010050608.IAA07313@smtp3.xs4all.nl>

Hi,

I noticed some odd behaviour of the forward function on the held-for-approval
page. It used to work in earlier betas, but it doesn't seem to work the same in
2.0b6.
When I approve a message and use the forward option, the message gets send only
once. There's no Subject prefix in the message I receive, so I _think_ it
doesn't get delivered to the rest of the list (which is probably true cause the
entry in logs/smtp talks about 1 recips). But the msg['Send-To'] header is
nowhere to be found in the message. 
Unfortunately, it looks like the message doesn't get delivered to the list,
even though i "approved" it too... but I have to test that some more to me 100%
positive it doesn't get delivered.
I'll look into it some more tonight, and if I have more details I'll submit a
bugreport on sourceforge... 

Ricardo.l

-- 
http://rixhq.nu

"You think that's air you're breathing?" -- Morpheus



From mailman-users@python.org, marc_news@valinux.com  Thu Oct  5 18:19:13 2000
From: mailman-users@python.org, marc_news@valinux.com (Marc MERLIN)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 10:19:13 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Using mailman with the secure-linux kernel patch
Message-ID: <20001005101913.M14681@marc.merlins.org>

[mailman-developers@python.org Cced in case they want to add my shell script to
the tree, but followup set to mailman-users@python.org]

I wanted to have mailman run on my servers that have the secure-linux kernel
patch. I ended up  writing a small shell script that  changed permissions so
that  scripts ran  as UID  mailman (by  making sure  that scripts  that lock
config.db do so with UID mailman).
I later realized that python doesn't  seem to have a suidpython wrapper like
perl does, so I  scrapped the shell script and attempted to  put a few lines
of python together to modify some scripts in mailman/bin so that they change
their uid  to mailman  if root  runs them  or complain  that they  can't run
unless their uid is mailman.

Please let  me know if  I forgot  to chmod or  modify other files  that lock
config.db:
binfilestopatch= ( 'add_members', 'check_db', 'clone_member', 'config_list',
'move_list', 'newlist', 'remove_members', 'rmlist', 'sync_members',
'update', 'withlist' )

It'd  be  nice  if  that  script  were  included  as  unsupported  with  the
mailman tree  so that people  who really want  to have the  protections from
secure-linux, can still run mailman.
If someone needs to make minor modifications to the script before including
it, I'm cool with that.

Thanks,
Marc

~mailman/bin/fix_perms.securelinux
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
#! /usr/bin/env python
#
# Copyright (C) 1998,1999,2000 by the Free Software Foundation, Inc.
#
# This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
# modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
# as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2
# of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
# 
# This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
# but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
# MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
# GNU General Public License for more details.
# 
# You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
# along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software 
# Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA.

"""If you use  Solar Designer's secure-linux patch, it prevents  a process from
linking (hard link) to a file it  doesn't own. As a result mailman has to be
changed so that the whole tree is owned by mailman, and the CGIs and some of
the programs in the  bin tree (the ones that lock  config.db files) are SUID
mailman.
The idea  is that config.db files  have to be  owned by the mailman  UID and
only touched by programs that are UID mailman.
 
If you  have to  run check_perms -f,  make sure to  also run  %(PROGRAM) -f,
which applies the necessary permission fixes
 
As a  result, to  prevent anyone from  running priviledged  mailman commands
(since the  scripts are suid), binary  commands that are changed  to be SUID
are also unreadable and unrunable by people who aren't in the mailman group.
This shouldn't affect  much since most of those commands  would fail work if
you weren't part of the mailman group anyway.

Marc <marcsoft@merlins.org>/<marc_bts@valinux.com> 2000/10/04
"""

import sys
import os
import paths
import re

# Those are the programs that we patch so that they insist being run under the
# mailman uid or as root.
binfilestopatch= ( 'add_members', 'check_db', 'clone_member', 'config_list', 'move_list', 'newlist', 'remove_members', 'rmlist', 'sync_members', 'update', 'withlist' )

def main():
    binpath=paths.prefix+'/bin/'
    droplib=binpath+'CheckFixUid.py'

    if len(argv)<2 or argv[1] != "-f":
	print __doc__
	sys.exit(1)

    if not os.path.exists(droplib):
	print "Creating "+droplib
	fp=open(droplib, 'w', 0644)
	fp.write("""import sys
import pwd
import os

class CheckFixUid:
    mailmanuid=pwd.getpwnam("mailman")[2]
    if os.geteuid() == 0:
	os.setuid(mailmanuid)
    if os.geteuid() != mailmanuid:
	print "You need to run this script as root or mailman because it was configured to run\non a linux system with the secure-linux patch which restricts hard links"
	sys.exit()
""")
	fp.close
    else:
	print "Skipping creation of "+droplib


    print "Making cgis setuid mailman"
    os.system('chmod 6755 '+paths.prefix+'/cgi-bin/*')

    print "Making mail wrapper setuid mailman"
    os.system('chmod 6755 '+paths.prefix+'/mail/wrapper')

    print "Ensuring that all config.db fiels are owned by Mailman"
    os.system('chown mailman.mailman '+paths.prefix+'/lists/*/config.db*')

    print "Patching mailman scripts to change the uid to mailman"

    for script in binfilestopatch:
	filefd=open(script, "r")
	file=filefd.readlines()
	filefd.close()

	patched=0
	try:
	    file.index("import CheckFixUid\n")
	    print "Not patching "+script+", already patched"
	except ValueError:
	    file.insert(file.index("import paths\n")+1, "import CheckFixUid\n")
	    for i in range(len(file)-1, 0, -1):
		object=re.compile("^([	 ]*)main\(").search(file[i])
		if object:
		    print "Patching "+script
		    file.insert(i, object.group(1)+"CheckFixUid.CheckFixUid()\n")
		    patched=1
		    break

	    if patched==0:
		print "Warning, file "+script+" couldn't be patched.\nIf you use it, mailman may not function properly"
	    else:
		filefd=open(script, "w")
		filefd.writelines(file)
	    
main(sys.argv)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Microsoft is to software what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
 
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ (friendly to non IE browsers)
Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key and other contact information


From bwarsaw@beopen.com  Thu Oct  5 20:12:21 2000
From: bwarsaw@beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 15:12:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] another weird mailman problem.
References: <p0433010cb5f6b30e6482@[17.216.27.250]>
Message-ID: <14812.53909.397213.773618@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    CVR> This just showed up in my logs...

---
Sep 26 13:07:01 2000 (6974) Bhawks-l: lvymay@worldnet.fr - exceeded limits
Sep 26 13:07:01 2000 (6974) Bhawks-l: disabled lvymay@worldnet.fr
Sep 26 13:07:01 2000 (6974) Bouncer exception: body
Sep 26 13:07:01 2000 (6974) Traceback (innermost last):
   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/BouncerAPI.py", line 65, in ScanMessages
     mlist.RegisterBounce(addr, msg)
   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Bouncer.py", line 141, in RegisterBounce
     self.HandleBouncingAddress(addr, msg)
   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Bouncer.py", line 236, in HandleBouncingAddress
     text = text + \
AttributeError: body

----

    CVR> I don't remember seeing this one before.

I just fixed that. :/

-Barry


From bwarsaw@beopen.com  Thu Oct  5 20:44:57 2000
From: bwarsaw@beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 15:44:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] List-* header suggestion
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20000929103025.02fd8940@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <p04330103b5fa619f6859@[209.239.169.197]>
Message-ID: <14812.55865.21561.78516@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    CVR> they aren't on my site, ron -- it' spossible you have an MTA
    CVR> that *is* folding them for you. Does it do laundry, too?

    CVR> Folding them would be a good idea, IMHO.

Me too.  Here's the patch.

-Barry

-------------------- snip snip --------------------
Index: CookHeaders.py
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/mailman/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py,v
retrieving revision 1.15
diff -u -r1.15 CookHeaders.py
--- CookHeaders.py	2000/09/25 13:40:19	1.15
+++ CookHeaders.py	2000/10/05 19:42:51
@@ -17,6 +17,7 @@
 """Cook a message's Subject header.
 """
 
+import string
 import re
 import urlparse
 from Mailman import mm_cfg
@@ -115,6 +116,11 @@
     # one copy of each, and we want to be sure it's ours.
     for h, v in headers.items():
         del msg[h]
+        # Wrap these lines if they are too long.  78 character width probably
+        # shouldn't be hardcoded.  The adding of 2 is for the colon-space
+        # separator.
+        if len(h) + 2 + len(v) > 78:
+            v = string.join(string.split(v, ', '), ',\n\t')
         msg[h] = v
     #
     # Always delete List-Archive header, but only add it back if the list is


From bwarsaw@beopen.com  Thu Oct  5 21:05:05 2000
From: bwarsaw@beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:05:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "download the full raw archive"
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010022206280.5021-100000@alb-net.com>
Message-ID: <14812.57073.817910.35800@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "MC" == Mentor Cana <mentor@alb-net.com> writes:

    MC> Doesn't this link run contrary to the "obscure_addresses"
    MC> Option?

Yup, but so does the old downloadable archive link, so I don't think
this change /increases/ the spam harvesting potential.

    MC> Even if I have the obscure_addresses Option set to YES, the
    MC> e-mail addresses of public archives can be still harvested by
    MC> various robots out there.

I'm not sure what to do about it.  The links are useful and since the
files are intended to be MUA-ready, munging the addresses is
inconvenient.  I guess if the list admin is really worried about
harvesting, she'll make the archives private and force access through
the authentication page.

Not a great position to take, I admit.

-Barry


From bwarsaw@beopen.com  Thu Oct  5 21:05:05 2000
From: bwarsaw@beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:05:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re: [Mailman-Developers] "download the full raw archive"
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010022206280.5021-100000@alb-net.com>
Message-ID: <14812.57073.817910.35800@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "MC" == Mentor Cana <mentor@alb-net.com> writes:

    MC> Doesn't this link run contrary to the "obscure_addresses"
    MC> Option?

Yup, but so does the old downloadable archive link, so I don't think
this change /increases/ the spam harvesting potential.

    MC> Even if I have the obscure_addresses Option set to YES, the
    MC> e-mail addresses of public archives can be still harvested by
    MC> various robots out there.

I'm not sure what to do about it.  The links are useful and since the
files are intended to be MUA-ready, munging the addresses is
inconvenient.  I guess if the list admin is really worried about
harvesting, she'll make the archives private and force access through
the authentication page.

Not a great position to take, I admit.

-Barry

------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users maillist  -  Mailman-Users@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users



From dgc@uchicago.edu  Thu Oct  5 21:14:32 2000
From: dgc@uchicago.edu (David Champion)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 15:14:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: "download the full raw archive"
In-Reply-To: <14812.57073.817910.35800@anthem.concentric.net>; from bwarsaw@beopen.com on Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 04:05:05PM -0400
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010022206280.5021-100000@alb-net.com> <14812.57073.817910.35800@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <20001005151432.S18564@smack.uchicago.edu>

On 2000.10.05, in <14812.57073.817910.35800@anthem.concentric.net>,
	"Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw@beopen.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure what to do about it.  The links are useful and since the
> files are intended to be MUA-ready, munging the addresses is
> inconvenient.  I guess if the list admin is really worried about
> harvesting, she'll make the archives private and force access through
> the authentication page.
> 
> Not a great position to take, I admit.

I think it's a fine position to take, as long as there's a way for the
concerned administrator to block access.  I'm disappointed when I can't
obtain virginal mbox archives of a list, and authenticating access is a
perfectly good solution to the harvester problem.

Maybe, as a compromise, the text and mbox links should be authenticated
even when the archives are private?                                    

-- 
 -D.	dgc@uchicago.edu	NSIT	University of Chicago


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Thu Oct  5 21:21:30 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 13:21:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "download the full raw archive"
In-Reply-To: <14812.57073.817910.35800@anthem.concentric.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010022206280.5021-100000@alb-net.com>
 <14812.57073.817910.35800@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b6029235c5f6@[17.216.27.227]>


>Yup, but so does the old downloadable archive link, so I don't think
>this change /increases/ the spam harvesting potential.
>
>     MC> Even if I have the obscure_addresses Option set to YES, the
>     MC> e-mail addresses of public archives can be still harvested by
>     MC> various robots out there.
>
>I'm not sure what to do about it.


I'm putting all of my archives, search engine, etc, behind a security 
realm. They'll have to know where to find the acct/password, and type 
it in.

That shuts out all of the automated harvesters. If someone wants to 
manually come in try to harvest, you need to depend on being able to 
recognize it happening and deal with it on a case by case basis, but 
then, if you have an individual harvesting, they can always quietly 
subscribe to the lists and harvest the e-mail stream you deliver to 
them, -- and you'll never know it's happening.

so I don't worry about the manual harvester. First, it rarely 
happens. Second, if they have a clue you'll never catch them. Third, 
few have a clue and they're easy to find. And fourth, that kind of 
person is very rare. I'm worried about (a) keeping email addresses 
out of the global search engines where most harvesting happens, and 
(b) closing out the automated spider harvesters that do 99% of the 
rest of the harvesting.

and if you think about it, you can't find, much less stop, a 
harvester that subscribes to lists and sucks e-mail off the list 
server, so that's the most secure you can make a mail list. It makes 
no sense to try to make your archives MORE secure than you can make 
the list itself. So I focus on dealing wtih indiviual harvesters by 
alarms on suspicious activity in the archives, and let passwords lock 
out the bots, and that, to me, is about as good as you can expect, 
because it's as secure as your list itself is.

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

You seem a decent fellow. I hate to die.


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Thu Oct  5 21:21:30 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 13:21:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re: [Mailman-Developers] "download the full raw archive"
In-Reply-To: <14812.57073.817910.35800@anthem.concentric.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010022206280.5021-100000@alb-net.com>
 <14812.57073.817910.35800@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b6029235c5f6@[17.216.27.227]>


>Yup, but so does the old downloadable archive link, so I don't think
>this change /increases/ the spam harvesting potential.
>
>     MC> Even if I have the obscure_addresses Option set to YES, the
>     MC> e-mail addresses of public archives can be still harvested by
>     MC> various robots out there.
>
>I'm not sure what to do about it.


I'm putting all of my archives, search engine, etc, behind a security 
realm. They'll have to know where to find the acct/password, and type 
it in.

That shuts out all of the automated harvesters. If someone wants to 
manually come in try to harvest, you need to depend on being able to 
recognize it happening and deal with it on a case by case basis, but 
then, if you have an individual harvesting, they can always quietly 
subscribe to the lists and harvest the e-mail stream you deliver to 
them, -- and you'll never know it's happening.

so I don't worry about the manual harvester. First, it rarely 
happens. Second, if they have a clue you'll never catch them. Third, 
few have a clue and they're easy to find. And fourth, that kind of 
person is very rare. I'm worried about (a) keeping email addresses 
out of the global search engines where most harvesting happens, and 
(b) closing out the automated spider harvesters that do 99% of the 
rest of the harvesting.

and if you think about it, you can't find, much less stop, a 
harvester that subscribes to lists and sucks e-mail off the list 
server, so that's the most secure you can make a mail list. It makes 
no sense to try to make your archives MORE secure than you can make 
the list itself. So I focus on dealing wtih indiviual harvesters by 
alarms on suspicious activity in the archives, and let passwords lock 
out the bots, and that, to me, is about as good as you can expect, 
because it's as secure as your list itself is.

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

You seem a decent fellow. I hate to die.

------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users maillist  -  Mailman-Users@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users



From R.Barrett@ftel.co.uk  Fri Oct  6 15:20:03 2000
From: R.Barrett@ftel.co.uk (Richard Barrett)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 15:20:03 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Virtual Host handling in listinfo.py
Message-ID: <v04220800b6038aae1a1b@[172.16.3.104]>

In what follows I am referring to code in the file 
Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py in the 2.0beta6 release of Mailman. I'm 
working with Apache/1.3.12 (Unix) which may influence your judgement 
about my arguments.

Sorry if what follows is too long but I found it useful to fully 
analyse my own thinking on the topic. Red face for me if the issue is 
well known to you all.

The code I'm concerned with is in the function 
FormatListinfoOverview. It deals with the situation when 
mm_cfg.VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW is true and computation is done to 
detemine which advertised mail lists should be returned when the URI 
/mailman/listinfo/ is being responded to. The relevant bits of the 
code are as follows:

     def FormatListinfoOverview(error=None):
         ...
         <snip>
         ...
         http_host = os.environ.get('HTTP_HOST', os.environ.get('SERVER_NAME'))
         port = os.environ.get('SERVER_PORT')
         # strip off the port if there is one
         if port and http_host[-len(port)-1:] == ':'+port:
             http_host = http_host[:-len(port)-1]
         if mm_cfg.VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW and http_host:
             host_name = http_host
         else:
             host_name = mm_cfg.DEFAULT_HOST_NAME
         ...
         <snip>
         ...
         for n in names:
             if mlist.advertised:
                 if mm_cfg.VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW and \
                         http_host and \
                         string.find(http_host, mlist.web_page_url) == -1 and \
                         string.find(mlist.web_page_url, http_host) == -1:
                     # List is for different identity of this host - skip it.
                     continue

                 else:
                     advertised.append(mlist)
         ...
         <snip>


There is a flaw in this code in the way that it strips the port 
number from the http_host variable but I'll come on to that below.

As best I can judge the purpose of considering the value of the 
environment variable HTTP_HOST (if available) instead of just using 
the SERVER_NAME value is to try and deduce a virtual host's server 
name in cirumstances when the web server has not. For instance:

1. Typically VirtualHost directives in httpd.conf will have been 
defined using FQDN, for example:

     NameVirtualHost 192.168.1.1
     <VirtualHost bert.my.co.uk>
         ServerName bert.my.co.uk
     </VirutalHost>
     <VirtualHost fred.my.co.uk>
         ServerName fred.my.co.uk
     </VirutalHost>

2. The virtual hosts will have associated ServerName directives whose 
values are used to set SERVER_NAME.

3. If a user on the local network uses a URL which does not fully 
quality the servers domain name, e.g. http://fred/mailman/listinfo/, 
then the VirtualHost directive is not correlated by the web server 
and the SERVER_NAME will not be set to fred.my.co.uk but to some 
other value depending on type and order of the VirtualHost directives 
in httpd.conf, bert.my.co.uk in this example.

4. In these circumstances, the cunning code above will ignore the 
SERVER_NAME value and match the fred value in HTTP_HOST.

I do not think this trick in the FormatListinfoOverview function is 
the right way to overcome this problem. If you want to match both 
partial and fully qualified domain names to a virtual host then two 
VirtualHost directives should be used in httpd.conf, for example:

     NameVirtualHost 192.168.1.1
     <VirtualHost bert.my.co.uk>
         ServerName bert.my.co.uk
     </VirutalHost>
     <VirtualHost fred.my.co.uk>
         ServerName fred.my.co.uk
     </VirutalHost>
     <VirtualHost fred>
         ServerName fred.my.co.uk
     </VirutalHost>

By doing this both web server and listinfo.py reach the same 
conclusion by the same route. I am saying that, in principle, the 
problem, which is generic to the way the web server is operating, 
should be solved by setting up the correct virtual host definitions 
in httpd.conf not by second guessing the virtual host setup in 
listinfo.py. listinfo.py should only consider the value of 
SERVER_NAME and not even look at HTTP_HOST. My proposed changes to 
the FormatListinfoOverview function are:

cut here-vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
diff -r -c2 mailman-2.0beta6.stock/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py 
mailman-2.0beta6.listinfo1/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py
*** mailman-2.0beta6.stock/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py	Wed Aug  2 
00:10:41 2000
--- mailman-2.0beta6.listinfo1/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py	Fri Oct  6 
14:22:44 2000
***************
*** 59,73 ****
       "Present a general welcome and itemize the (public) lists for this host."

!     # XXX We need a portable way to determine the host by which we are being
!     #     visited!  An absolute URL would do...
!     http_host = os.environ.get('HTTP_HOST', os.environ.get('SERVER_NAME'))
!     port = os.environ.get('SERVER_PORT')
!     # strip off the port if there is one
!     if port and http_host[-len(port)-1:] == ':'+port:
!         http_host = http_host[:-len(port)-1]
!     if mm_cfg.VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW and http_host:
! 	host_name = http_host
!     else:
! 	host_name = mm_cfg.DEFAULT_HOST_NAME

       doc = Document()
--- 59,63 ----
       "Present a general welcome and itemize the (public) lists for this host."

!     http_host = host_name = os.environ.get('SERVER_NAME')

       doc = Document()
cut here-^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Even if you do not agree with my first conclusion, please read on.]

Which brings me on to the problem that started me looking at this 
whole issue; what happens when SSH's port forwarding is used to make 
the browser/web connection? For example:

1. I'm dialling in to my favorite ISP from home using my laptop. In 
order to then connect to our internal-access-only Mailman web server 
through our corporate firewall, I have to use SSH's port forwarding.

2. I set up port forwarding so that any connection to local port 8081 
on my laptop is forwarded to fred.my.co.uk:80 by the firewall machine.

3. I give my browser the URL http://localhost:8081/mailman/listinfo/.

4. The HTTP request is forwarded satisfactorily to fred.my.co.uk:80 
with the URI being /mailman/listinfo/.

5. Because mm_cfg.VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW is true, listinfo.py proceeds 
to tell me there are no advertised mail lists on host localhost:8081. 
Well, I knew that.

This is because of two flaws in the FormatListinfoOverview function:

1. In trying to remove the port number from the end of the string 
value of HTTP_HOST, the code assumes that the length of the port 
number is equal to the length of the SERVER_PORT environment 
variable's value. In the case of my example this is assumption is 
wrong: the port number at the end of HTTP_HOST is 4 characters 
('8081') and the SERVER_PORT is 2 characters long ('80').

2. Even with this first flaw corrected, the code still fails to 
recognise the circumstances because it is analysing HTTP_HOST and 
extracting the value 'localhost'. But the ip number of this value 
does not even match the SERVER_ADDR environment variable's value, 
which is a dead giveaway.

This problem disappears if virtual host definition in httpd.conf is 
used instead of trickery involving HTTP_HOST in listinfo.py.

So also does a similar problem which occurs if the explicit ip number 
of the server is used in the URL given to the browser, instead of the 
server's domain name, assuming no ip-based virtual host has been 
defined in httpd.conf to map the ip number to an acceptable 
ServerName.

OK, so you do not agree with my contention that listinfo.py should 
not consider HTTP_HOST because it might break a bunch of existing 
Mailman installations. In that case, the following changes to the 
FormatListinfoOverview function avoid my problems. The position here 
is that if:

either - The ip number of the HTTP_HOST doesn't match the SERVER_ADDR.

or - The URL contains the server's ip number rather than its name.

then the code behaves as if the browser didn't supply an HTTP Host header:

cut here-vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
diff -r -c2 mailman-2.0beta6.stock/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py 
mailman-2.0beta6.listinfo2/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py
*** mailman-2.0beta6.stock/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py	Wed Aug  2 
00:10:41 2000
--- mailman-2.0beta6.listinfo2/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py	Fri Oct  6 
15:06:31 2000
***************
*** 22,25 ****
--- 22,26 ----
   import os
   import string
+ import socket

   from Mailman import mm_cfg
***************
*** 62,72 ****
       #     visited!  An absolute URL would do...
       http_host = os.environ.get('HTTP_HOST', os.environ.get('SERVER_NAME'))
-     port = os.environ.get('SERVER_PORT')
       # strip off the port if there is one
!     if port and http_host[-len(port)-1:] == ':'+port:
!         http_host = http_host[:-len(port)-1]
!     if mm_cfg.VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW and http_host:
   	host_name = http_host
       else:
   	host_name = mm_cfg.DEFAULT_HOST_NAME

--- 63,77 ----
       #     visited!  An absolute URL would do...
       http_host = os.environ.get('HTTP_HOST', os.environ.get('SERVER_NAME'))
       # strip off the port if there is one
!     if http_host:
!         http_host = string.split(http_host, ':')[0]
!     host_ip = socket.gethostbyname(http_host)
!     server_ip = os.environ.get('SERVER_ADDR')
!     if mm_cfg.VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW and http_host and \
!             host_ip == server_ip and \
!             host_ip != http_host:
   	host_name = http_host
       else:
+ 	http_host = None
   	host_name = mm_cfg.DEFAULT_HOST_NAME
cut here-^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I have yet to post either of these above patches to sourceforge. I 
would appreciate a sanity check on my thinking and any rebuttal of my 
arguments or constructive comments. RSVP
------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Barrett, PostPoint 30,         e-mail:r.barrett@ftel.co.uk
Fujitsu Telecommunications Europe Ltd,      tel: (44) 121 717 6337
Solihull Parkway, Birmingham Business Park, B37 7YU, England
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759
------------------------------------------------------------------


From mentor@alb-net.com  Tue Oct  3 03:10:10 2000
From: mentor@alb-net.com (Mentor Cana)
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 22:10:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] "download the full raw archive"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010022206280.5021-100000@alb-net.com>

Doesn't this link run contrary to the "obscure_addresses" Option?

Even if I have the obscure_addresses Option set to YES, the e-mail
addresses of public archives can be still harvested by various robots out
there.

later,
Mentor


------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users maillist  -  Mailman-Users@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users



From Ricardo Kustner <ricardo@rixhq.nu>  Sat Oct  7 12:23:33 2000
From: Ricardo Kustner <ricardo@rixhq.nu> (Ricardo Kustner)
Date: 07 Oct 2000 11:23:33 CEST
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] 2.0b6 & approval page forward function
In-Reply-To: <200010050608.IAA07313@smtp3.xs4all.nl>
References: <200010050608.IAA07313@smtp3.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <200010070917.LAA01220@smtp3.xs4all.nl>

>  Unfortunately, it looks like the message doesn't get delivered to the list,
>  even though i "approved" it too... but I have to test that some more to me 100%
>  positive it doesn't get delivered.
>  I'll look into it some more tonight, and if I have more details I'll submit a
>  bugreport on sourceforge... 

FYI... i just submitted this as bugreport #116311 on sourceforge...

Ricardo.
-- 
http://rixhq.nu

"You think that's air you're breathing?" -- Morpheus



From jh@rsi.pl  Sun Oct  8 12:14:58 2000
From: jh@rsi.pl (Jerzy Hodor)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 13:14:58 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug in CookHeaders.py
Message-ID: <01b901c03118$ff3df300$d27bcdc3@pc.rsi.pl>

   Hello,

I have just discovered a bug in Mailman 2.0beta6. When you set up a list to
post replies to list, and user receives confirmation note about subsciption,
the CookHandlers module trashes content of  'Reply-To' field. Accordingly to
comments in this code there is wrong written condition in it.You should
change it from:
    if not fasttrack or msg.get('reply-to'):
to:
    if not fasttrack or not msg.get('reply-to'):
or even to cleaner form:
    if not (fasttrack and msg.get('reply-to')):

Here is diff -uNr of CookHeaders.py.orig CookHeaders.py

<---------cut here
--- CookHeaders.py.orig Sun Oct  8 12:53:40 2000
+++ CookHeaders.py      Sun Oct  8 12:54:30 2000
@@ -79,7 +79,7 @@
     # or if there is already a reply-to set.  If the user has set
     # one we assume they have a good reason for it, and we don't
     # second guess them.
-    if not fasttrack or msg.get('reply-to'):
+    if not fasttrack or not msg.get('reply-to'):
         # Set Reply-To: header to point back to this list
         if mlist.reply_goes_to_list == 1:
             msg['Reply-To'] = mlist.GetListEmail()
<---------cut here

Hope this helps developing your great program!
Sincerely yours,

--
Jerzy Hodor

PS. Yes, I have posted this bug and patch on sourceforge :-)



From jam@jamux.com  Mon Oct  9 13:47:28 2000
From: jam@jamux.com (John A. Martin)
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 08:47:28 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] X-Mailman-Version: header field
Message-ID: <20001009124728.AC4D548031@athene.jamux.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Will there be an option or an easy edit to not use the
"X-Mailman-Version:" header field?

It might be nice to have a ./configure option something like
"--paranoid-advertiser" for those whose policy is to not advertise the
specific version of daemons and the like.  --paranoid-advertiser would
not use the X-Mailman-Version header field , would not have the
version number in the logo on the web pages, and would not otherwise
advertise the version number.

Presumably anybody smart enough to be paranoid would also be
thoughtful enough to mention the version where appropriate when
seeking help and so forth.  :-)

	jam

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.3 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: OpenPGP encrypted mail preferred.  See <http://www.gnupg.org/>

iEYEARECAAYFAjnhvcoACgkQUEvv1b/iXy9ukACfUfCP2nsoxa5UEtL7YSndpFld
gV8AnjFJzJUacNqeInEONJfyjDmVo0Wm
=mJty
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From jafo@tummy.com  Mon Oct  9 20:23:24 2000
From: jafo@tummy.com (Sean Reifschneider)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 13:23:24 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] QMail patches submitted to sourceforge
Message-ID: <20001009132324.H1076@tummy.com>

Since SourceForge doesn't allow any lengthy descriptions of patches, let
me describe them here.

Patch ID 101660: Fixing some information in the README.QMAIL file.

Patch ID 101845: Changed calling line in qmail-to-mailman.py program
to include "preline" call.  Added an entry in FAQ on why archiving
doesn't work for QMail.

Patch ID 101846: Added a default entry "MTA_TYPE", which can be used
to trigger MTA-specific actions in other code.  This is a port forward
of the patch I submitted last year, which I believe was dropped.  
Defaults.py.in auto-detects QMail and sets MTA_TYPE accordingly.  Changes
"newlist" to output QMail specific text.

Patch ID 101847: A contrib program which does log rotation and mails any
messages in "errors" or "smtp-failures" to mailman owner.  This is
another patch I submitted last year which I believe was dropped.

Enjoy,
Sean
-- 
 Hell hath no fury, like a file-system scorned.  -- Sean Reifschneider, 1998
Sean Reifschneider, Inimitably Superfluous <jafo@tummy.com>
tummy.com - Linux Consulting since 1995. Qmail, KRUD, Firewalls, Python


From thomas@xs4all.net  Mon Oct  9 21:19:59 2000
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:19:59 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] QMail patches submitted to sourceforge
In-Reply-To: <20001009132324.H1076@tummy.com>; from jafo@tummy.com on Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:23:24PM -0600
References: <20001009132324.H1076@tummy.com>
Message-ID: <20001009221959.O12812@xs4all.nl>

On Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:23:24PM -0600, Sean Reifschneider wrote:
> Since SourceForge doesn't allow any lengthy descriptions of patches, let
> me describe them here.

Actually, it does... Just add a comment to them, after submitting them.
(Submit them, view them, add text in the comment window, submit.)

-- 
Thomas Wouters <thomas@xs4all.net>

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From minsk_mobile@mail.ru  Tue Oct 10 19:56:34 2000
From: minsk_mobile@mail.ru (Kleniksky Artiom)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:56:34 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] software
Message-ID: <009a01c032eb$d04a2f80$3bd09ec2@ef>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0097_01C0330D.569B8CC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="koi8-r"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear sirs,=20

  My name is Artiom Kleniksky, i am private  businessman  and  work in =
sphere of  telecommunications in Belarus. Presently  I  revise the =
direction of its activity and begin to work of software development!

  On given  moment  I  have  the big interest  in reception of order on =
software production, any level to difficulties. At  reception  of order =
for 5 days I am ready to give answer about possibility of its =
realization.

  I  am ready to guarantee the quality and periods of performances =
order. The Payment expect the transfer of cheque on my name on  fact of =
performance of order. For first time a downpayment for performance work =
is not required.

  I  certain  that  we with  can  find  the general interests and shall =
cooperation to future!=20

  I wait any offers from you!

  My e-mail:minsk_mobile@mail.ru=20
  GSM: +375-296-500-950=20
=20
  With best regards
  Artiom Kleniksky=20


------=_NextPart_000_0097_01C0330D.569B8CC0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="koi8-r"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dkoi8-r" http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>Dear sirs,=20
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>&nbsp; My name is =
Artiom=20
Kleniksky, i am private&nbsp; businessman&nbsp; and&nbsp; work in sphere =

of&nbsp; telecommunications in Belarus. Presently&nbsp; I&nbsp; revise =
the=20
direction of its activity and begin to work of software=20
development!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>&nbsp; On =
given&nbsp; moment&nbsp;=20
I&nbsp; have&nbsp; the big interest&nbsp; in reception of order on =
software=20
production, any level to difficulties. At&nbsp; reception&nbsp; of order =
for 5=20
days I am ready to give answer about possibility of its=20
realization.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>&nbsp; I&nbsp; am =
ready to=20
guarantee the quality and periods of performances order. The Payment =
expect the=20
transfer of cheque on my name on&nbsp; fact of performance of order. For =
first=20
time a downpayment for performance work is not required.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>&nbsp; I&nbsp; =
certain&nbsp;=20
that&nbsp; we with&nbsp; can&nbsp; find&nbsp; the general interests and =
shall=20
cooperation to future! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>&nbsp; I wait any =
offers from=20
you!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>&nbsp; My <A=20
href=3D"mailto:e-mail:minsk_mobile@mail.ru">e-mail:minsk_mobile@mail.ru</=
A>=20
<BR>&nbsp; GSM: +375-296-500-950 <BR>&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp; With best=20
regards<BR>&nbsp; Artiom Kleniksky=20
<BR></FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0097_01C0330D.569B8CC0--



From steffen@asta.uni-wuppertal.de  Wed Oct 11 00:53:34 2000
From: steffen@asta.uni-wuppertal.de (Steffen Bardolatzi)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 01:53:34 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman-Bug with faked spam headers and some suggestions new features
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010110059160.828-100000@steffensdomaine.dyndns.org>

This looks like a nasty bug ...


We are running Mailman for some time now - one of the liste is a
"half-open" one with these settings:

- everyone can post
- bccs to the list are not permitted (to avoid spams, works fine)
- some alias-names for some users who regulary post to a different
adress but bcc to our's


Recently a spam message with a visible to-entry in the mail header
arrived here: "To: <>" in the fields displayed by mail clients.

This caused to log Mailman Beta 6 the following files into the error-
logfile:

Oct 08 23:53:01 2000 (25258) Delivery exception: read-only character 
buffer, None
Oct 08 23:53:01 2000 (25258) Traceback (innermost last):
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/HandlerAPI.py", line 82, in
do_pipeline
    func(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py", line 173, in process
    if mlist.require_explicit_destination and \
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 1208, in HasExplicitDest
    addr = string.lower(addr)
TypeError: read-only character buffer, None


... these lines were repeated each *2* minutes for more than 10 hours
(until I deleted the db-, and msg-file in the qfiles directory).
The original msg-file time was exactly the one of the first log in the
log file. In this *first* log I could read something like "implicit
header..." followed by the endlessly repeated actual error-log above.


-------------------------------


In addition to this here are some more minior bugs:

- In case some e-mails are sent with qp-7bit-code the archiver does
*not* covert them back into the acutal 8 bit characters - which makes it
more diffucult to read the postings in the archive unless you are get
used to qp-coding. As for 8 bit characters it works fine.
Some of the affected mail clients are Pegasus und Outlook
Express (according to some header analyses on an unregular bases).
E-Mails are send just fine with no problems.

- In case some people send M$-attachments the archive does not
interpret this mime code and displays if just as if it was plain text.
A nice *new* feature was if there was displayed a link for
non-text-files like: download this file.

- It would be fine if the archive would *not* display both the text
and html code (in source code) if some people send a message with html
*and* txt - the default might be *only* to render the html part
readable (as e.g. done my pine).
In general it would be fine if the archive was mime-aware ... there are
too many users out there who have not yet learnt to send e-mails in
plain text.

- In case there are packet losses and timeouts during processing some
admin-(mail)-requests Mailman does recognize the changes but does
endlessly attempt to load the updated admin-requests site.


-------------------------------------------


- sugestion for a new feature:

I was told to disable the unsubscribe-funktion for a special list: I
edited the list option's site *and* disabled the request e-mail adress
(else I had to filter out unsubscribe in the subject and body with
procmail or so).
So far this works fine *but* has been some work.
Therefore a switch like: "unsubscribe  yes  no" would be a good idea -
maybe on a per-list bases in the mydefauls.py-file.


Thanks in advance and thaks for such a great mailing list manager!


PS.: I hope it's ok if I send it to mailman-users and
mailman-developers and sorry about the length.
Anyway Mailman seems to get better with each Beta version.




From mogul@gelatinous.com  Wed Oct 11 18:55:21 2000
From: mogul@gelatinous.com (Bret Mogilefsky)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:55:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] snews note and nntp configuration suggestion
Message-ID: <20001011105521.A29990@gelatinous.com>

Hello.

I'm trying to set up Mailman 2.0b4 to gateway our secure newsgroups to a
mailing list per group.  The first thing I notice is that there's no
support for snews (NNTP over SSL), presumably because SSL is a whole
new can of worms.  The second thing I notice is that there's no way
way to specify the port that should be used on the news host.  The
third thing I notice is that the same news username/password are used
for all mailing lists.  Consider the following information/suggestions.

The first problem should be easy to solve using stunnel
(http://www.stunnel.org). I can set up a wrapper on the Mailman host
that forwards NNTP over SSL to the remote server.  Assuming I can
specify the port I'm using to forward, everything should work.  This
should probably be documented somewhere in case people are tempted to
complain about the lack of SSL support as I was about to.

Second problem, no port.  Well, open_newsgroup() in gate_news passes parameters to nntplib.NNTP() for the username and password; why not pass the port as well?  I set this up as NNTP_PORT in Defaults.py and overrode it in my mmcfg.py, then hacked open_newsgroup() to use it.  Simple enough, BUT...

Third problem, the same username/password are used for all gated lists.  This seems an oversight in my opinion.  Consider for example SourceForge, where there are thousands of lists associated with various projects, each under the administration of that project.  It's really not useful for the list admin to be able to specify the news host and group, but not the port, username, and password.  All of these parameters should be configurable per list.  Great, so I should add those fields to the mlist structure... 

But at this point I burst out in tears and hide my face in shame because I'm really unfamiliar with Python and I don't know anything about how the web interface is being generated and I'm afraid to do any more hacks than what I've already described without seriously mucking things up.  Can someone help?  Is it too late to get this change into 2.0?

Thanks for your patience,

Bret
mogul at playstation.sony.com


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Mon Oct 16 06:44:27 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 22:44:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] UI glitch in templates/listinfo.html
Message-ID: <p0433011bb610451859e0@[209.239.169.197]>

Found a UI glitch in templates/listinfo.html:

                 <tr><td>Would you like to receive list mail batched in a daily
                     digest?
                 </td><td><MM-Undigest-Radio-Button> No
                     <MM-Digest-Radio-Button>  Yes
                 </TD></tr>

which is the section that prints out digest selections.

If you turn off digests (for instance, an announce lists), you get 
the question, followed by No Yes and no buttons. Very confusing for 
the end user, and tripped me up for about ten minutes before I 
figured it out.

The best way (I guess) to handle this is to not print the message at 
all if digests are disabled for a list, but the quick and dirty hack 
would be to have those button variables return a string of N/A or 
something -- ugly, but at least the user would know it's not 
broken....

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From fil@bok.net  Tue Oct 17 08:57:00 2000
From: fil@bok.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:57:00 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] default privacy settings
Message-ID: <20001017095700.A14340@orwell.bok.net>

We live in a very privacy-reduced world, isn't it? Wouldn't it help if
GNU/Mailman was by default shipped with 

    DEFAULT_PRIVATE_ROSTER = 2

...and let administrators reverse that if they wish ?



From fil@bok.net  Tue Oct 17 09:06:08 2000
From: fil@bok.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:06:08 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] choose options that appear on the roster
Message-ID: <20001017100608.A14436@orwell.bok.net>

Would it be possible to make this list of roster options a DEFAULT by LIST
(or by SERVER) so as to simplify the admin interface ?


Mailman/Cgi/admin.py:
        for opt in ("hide", "nomail", "ack", "notmetoo", "plain"):



From forster@fmi.uni-passau.de  Tue Oct 17 09:53:32 2000
From: forster@fmi.uni-passau.de (Michael Forster)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:53:32 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mail commands help text
Message-ID: <JFEHKPKDDKIMOOHNLDIJGEDBCBAA.forster@fmi.uni-passau.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

2.0beta6: When I send a "help" to xylist-request I get a help message
containing the following:

    subscribe [password] [digest-option] [address=<address>]
        Subscribe to the mailing list.  Your password must be given to
        unsubscribe or change your options.  When you subscribe to the
- -->     list, you'll be reminded of your password periodically.
        'digest-option' may be either: 'nodigest' or 'digest' (no
        quotes!)  If you wish to subscribe an address other than the
        address you send this request from, you may specify
        "address=<email address>" (no brackets around the email
        address, no quotes!)

even if I set the "Send monthly password reminders" option to "No".

This is wrong, isn't it?

Mike

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>

iQA/AwUBOewFfceYjj0YYPBiEQLacgCfeemhWP98YzP3wuf73uquedHcpEoAnjEV
F33FsqCC7ZqjVnn4lJ93PvF3
=A+5d
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From Global786@aol.com  Tue Oct 17 23:25:16 2000
From: Global786@aol.com (Global786@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 18:25:16 EDT
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] website
Message-ID: <5e.2088f9f.271e2bcc@aol.com>

I wonder if you could help me in the following matters.


1.  can you or someone help improve my websight which I could 
edit/add/delete- items myself.  please go to my site below to know my 
business.
                  www.globalcatering.co.uk

2.  I wish to enter into e-commerce- can you or someone help me to achieve 
this.

3.  is there a way to obtain e-mailing lists to create a database on my  
computer to enable me to inform people re special offers.


thank you,

I await your reply.

best regards
altaf shaikh.


From plasma@prosa.it  Wed Oct 18 15:40:40 2000
From: plasma@prosa.it (Cristian Prevedello)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:40:40 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman-cmd
Message-ID: <20001018164040.A12171@wien.prosa.it>

I've written few lines of python to manage from the command line some
aspects of mailman.

You can find these scripts at
ftp://ftp.prosa.it/pub/people/plasma/mailman-cmd-0.1.tar.gz

This is the first release. They are ugly, very very few userfriendly, but
they their work.

Suggestions and contributions are welcome.

-- 
Cristian Prevedello, System Administrator, Linuxcare Italia spa
+39.049.804.3.411 tel, +39.049.803.6.484 fax
plasma@linuxcare.it, http://www.linuxcare.com/
Linuxcare. Support for the revolution.


From mtran@bmedesign.com  Wed Oct 18 20:00:21 2000
From: mtran@bmedesign.com (mike tran)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:00:21 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Help with mailman installation
Message-ID: <39EDF345.3BCEDA3A@bmedesign.com>

I followed the instruction on INSTALL  mailman, but i still have problem
with making it work.  When I point my browser to
http://localhost/mailman/  I get a message "you do not have permission
to view mailman on this server"  When i ran ./configure i used the
--with-cgi-gid=nobody --with-mail-gid=nobody .  We use Apache as our Web
Server.  Any suggestion is appreciated.

Mike



From fil@bok.net  Thu Oct 19 10:50:04 2000
From: fil@bok.net (Fil)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:50:04 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] a patch to get the subscriber's email address in subscribeack.txt
Message-ID: <20001019115004.H8005@orwell.bok.net>

I'm sorry I can't get to sourceforge. Here's a small but useful patch to be
able to use %(name)s in subscribeack.txt so as to write an answer looking
like

"Welcome to the YYYY mailin list. Your address <%(name)s> has been added
succesfully...." where %(name)s is the email of the subscriber. 

I hope you can retain this patch in the official distrib.

btw, why write 'name' when it's actually an email ;)



*** Mailman/Deliverer.py.old    Mon Oct 16 19:14:43 2000
--- Mailman/Deliverer.py        Thu Oct 19 11:30:30 2000
*************** your membership administrative address, 
*** 55,60 ****
--- 55,61 ----
               'listinfo_url': self.GetScriptURL('listinfo', absolute=1),
               'optionsurl'  : self.GetOptionsURL(name, absolute=1),
               'password'    : password,
+              'name'        : name,
               })
          if digest:
              digmode = ' (Digest mode)'


From mailman-users@python.org  Thu Oct 19 18:35:14 2000
From: mailman-users@python.org (Marc MERLIN)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:35:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Using mailman with the secure-linux kernel patch
In-Reply-To: <20001005101913.M14681@marc.merlins.org>; from marc_news@valinux.com on Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 10:19:13AM -0700
References: <20001005101913.M14681@marc.merlins.org>
Message-ID: <20001019103514.E7447@marc.merlins.org>

[mailman-developers@python.org  Cced in  case  they want  to  add my  python
script to the tree, but followup set to mailman-users@python.org]
 
On Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 10:19:13AM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> I wanted to have mailman run on my servers that have the secure-linux kernel
> patch. I ended up  writing a small shell script that  changed permissions so
> that  scripts ran  as UID  mailman (by  making sure  that scripts  that lock
> config.db do so with UID mailman).
> I later realized that python doesn't  seem to have a suidpython wrapper like
> perl does, so I  scrapped the shell script and attempted to  put a few lines
> of python together to modify some scripts in mailman/bin so that they change
> their uid  to mailman  if root  runs them  or complain  that they  can't run
> unless their uid is mailman.

My old version forgot to do a chown mailman before chmod 4755. Duh!

The new version, which I'm not pasting here again fixes this:
https://sourceforge.net/patch/?func=detailpatch&patch_id=101812&group_id=103

If you try out this script on your system, please drop me a line by Email to
let me know if all works fine for you

Thanks,
Marc
-- 
Microsoft is to operating systems & security ....
                                      .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
  
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   |   Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key


From barry@wooz.org  Fri Oct 20 06:36:08 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 01:36:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] X-Mailman-Version: header field
References: <20001009124728.AC4D548031@athene.jamux.com>
Message-ID: <14831.55752.277248.836045@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "jam" == John A Martin <jam@jamux.com> writes:

    jam> Will there be an option or an easy edit to not use the
    jam> "X-Mailman-Version:" header field?

No.  But...

    jam> Presumably anybody smart enough to be paranoid would also be
    jam> thoughtful enough to mention the version where appropriate
    jam> when seeking help and so forth.  :-)

...or grep the source code for where those version numbers are added.
It's easy to remove them, for example, by commenting out the lines in
Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py and Mailman/htmlformat.py (hint, grep
for mm_cfg.VERSION).

-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Fri Oct 20 07:17:21 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 02:17:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] QMail patches submitted to sourceforge
References: <20001009132324.H1076@tummy.com>
Message-ID: <14831.58225.127134.412756@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "SR" == Sean Reifschneider <jafo@tummy.com> writes:

    SR> Since SourceForge doesn't allow any lengthy descriptions of
    SR> patches, let me describe them here.

It does, actually, but you have to first submit the patch, then visit
it again and add a comment.  I wish you could add the comment on the
initial patch submission.

    SR> Patch ID 101660: Fixing some information in the README.QMAIL
    SR> file.

Applied.

    SR> Patch ID 101845: Changed calling line in qmail-to-mailman.py
    SR> program to include "preline" call.  Added an entry in FAQ on
    SR> why archiving doesn't work for QMail.

Applied.

    SR> Patch ID 101846: Added a default entry "MTA_TYPE", which can
    SR> be used to trigger MTA-specific actions in other code.  This
    SR> is a port forward of the patch I submitted last year, which I
    SR> believe was dropped.  Defaults.py.in auto-detects QMail and
    SR> sets MTA_TYPE accordingly.  Changes "newlist" to output QMail
    SR> specific text.

Applied, but slightly modified.

    SR> Patch ID 101847: A contrib program which does log rotation and
    SR> mails any messages in "errors" or "smtp-failures" to mailman
    SR> owner.  This is another patch I submitted last year which I
    SR> believe was dropped.

Please re-upload this, but since it's a new file don't submit it as
diff output.  Just upload the entire new file.

Thanks,
-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Fri Oct 20 07:29:45 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 02:29:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman-Bug with faked spam headers and some suggestions new features
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010110059160.828-100000@steffensdomaine.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <14831.58969.17198.42077@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "SB" == Steffen Bardolatzi <steffen@asta.uni-wuppertal.de> writes:

    SB> This looks like a nasty bug ...

    SB> Oct 08 23:53:01 2000 (25258) Delivery exception: read-only
    SB> character buffer, None Oct 08 23:53:01 2000 (25258) Traceback
    SB> (innermost last): File
    SB> "/var/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/HandlerAPI.py", line 82, in
    SB> do_pipeline
    SB>     func(mlist, msg, msgdata) File
    SB> "/var/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py", line 173, in process
    SB> if mlist.require_explicit_destination and \ File
    SB> "/var/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 1208, in
    SB> HasExplicitDest addr = string.lower(addr)
    SB> TypeError: read-only character buffer, None

This will be fixed in rc1.

-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Fri Oct 20 07:29:45 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 02:29:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman-Bug with faked spam headers and some suggestions new features
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010110059160.828-100000@steffensdomaine.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <14831.58969.17198.42077@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "SB" == Steffen Bardolatzi <steffen@asta.uni-wuppertal.de> writes:

    SB> This looks like a nasty bug ...

    SB> Oct 08 23:53:01 2000 (25258) Delivery exception: read-only
    SB> character buffer, None Oct 08 23:53:01 2000 (25258) Traceback
    SB> (innermost last): File
    SB> "/var/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/HandlerAPI.py", line 82, in
    SB> do_pipeline
    SB>     func(mlist, msg, msgdata) File
    SB> "/var/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py", line 173, in process
    SB> if mlist.require_explicit_destination and \ File
    SB> "/var/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 1208, in
    SB> HasExplicitDest addr = string.lower(addr)
    SB> TypeError: read-only character buffer, None

This will be fixed in rc1.

-Barry

------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users maillist  -  Mailman-Users@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users



From midnight@the-oasis.net  Sat Oct 21 18:47:06 2000
From: midnight@the-oasis.net (Phil Barnett)
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 13:47:06 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CVS
Message-ID: <39F19E5A.16270.7C1816F@localhost>

I asked on mailman-users and got no definative answer, and I have 
searched the mailman home page and everything it leads me to, 
but I can't find any place where the CVS is tarballed and ready to 
ftp.

Is there such a place?

Does anyone have any objection to my creating a CVS tarball on a 
daily basis and providing this service (assuming it is not already 
being done somewhere...)?


-- 
              Phil Barnett  mailto:midnight@the-oasis.net
                       WWW  http://www.the-oasis.net/
                  FTP Site  ftp://ftp.the-oasis.net


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 23 01:27:58 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:27:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CVS
References: <39F19E5A.16270.7C1816F@localhost>
Message-ID: <14835.34318.543121.178265@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "PB" == Phil Barnett <midnight@the-oasis.net> writes:

    PB> I asked on mailman-users and got no definative answer, and I
    PB> have searched the mailman home page and everything it leads me
    PB> to, but I can't find any place where the CVS is tarballed and
    PB> ready to ftp.

    PB> Is there such a place?

    PB> Does anyone have any objection to my creating a CVS tarball on
    PB> a daily basis and providing this service (assuming it is not
    PB> already being done somewhere...)?

Do you want to create a tarball of the working code, or the
repository?  If the latter, here's basically the cron script I run:

-------------------- snip snip --------------------
#! /bin/sh
cd archives
rooturl="http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cvstarballs"
/usr/local/bin/wget $rooturl/mailman-cvsroot.tar.gz
-------------------- snip snip --------------------

This would be a good thing to do, both as a service to the community,
and as a backup should SF ever go away.

-Barry


From midnight@the-oasis.net  Mon Oct 23 04:56:04 2000
From: midnight@the-oasis.net (Phil Barnett)
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 23:56:04 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CVS daily tarball
In-Reply-To: <14835.34318.543121.178265@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <39F37E94.11291.F1569B1@localhost>

On 22 Oct 2000, at 20:27, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

> 
> >>>>> "PB" == Phil Barnett <midnight@the-oasis.net> writes:
> 
>     PB> I asked on mailman-users and got no definative answer, and I
>     PB> have searched the mailman home page and everything it leads me
>     PB> to, but I can't find any place where the CVS is tarballed and
>     PB> ready to ftp.
> 
>     PB> Is there such a place?
> 
>     PB> Does anyone have any objection to my creating a CVS tarball on
>     PB> a daily basis and providing this service (assuming it is not
>     PB> already being done somewhere...)?
> 
> Do you want to create a tarball of the working code, or the
> repository?  If the latter, here's basically the cron script I run:
> 
> -------------------- snip snip --------------------
> #! /bin/sh
> cd archives
> rooturl="http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cvstarballs"
> /usr/local/bin/wget $rooturl/mailman-cvsroot.tar.gz
> -------------------- snip snip --------------------

Thanks, but I really wanted to go a step farther than that if I'm going 
to automate it.

So, here's the scoop...

Each Sunday morning at 2am, I completely remove my copy and 
grab a fresh copy of the entire CVS repository from SourceForge.

Every morning at 3am, I get a refresh. After each refresh, I create 
two files, one gzip and one bzip.

I keep both files for three days, so after we get rolling, there should 
always be 6 files in the directory.

You can reach these CVS files at:

ftp://ftp.linuxceptional.com/mailman

Today, there is:

ftp://ftp.linuxceptional.com/mailman/mailman-dev-001022.tar.gz
ftp://ftp.linuxceptional.com/mailman/mailman-dev-001022.tar.bz2

You may include this location in your documentation. I'll leave it 
running for the foreseeable future.

Enjoy!


-- 
              Phil Barnett  mailto:midnight@the-oasis.net
                       WWW  http://www.the-oasis.net/
                  FTP Site  ftp://ftp.the-oasis.net


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 23 05:46:43 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 00:46:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CVS daily tarball
References: <14835.34318.543121.178265@anthem.concentric.net>
 <39F37E94.11291.F1569B1@localhost>
Message-ID: <14835.49843.307178.590425@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "PB" == Phil Barnett <midnight@the-oasis.net> writes:

    PB> Each Sunday morning at 2am, I completely remove my copy and
    PB> grab a fresh copy of the entire CVS repository from
    PB> SourceForge.

I don't have time at the moment to look at thise, but do you mean you
do a fresh "cvs co" each time?  That means you get the working files
and not the repository (all the ,v files).  The former is good for end
users, the later is a safeguard for developers.

-Barry


From midnight@the-oasis.net  Mon Oct 23 06:12:51 2000
From: midnight@the-oasis.net (Phil Barnett)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 01:12:51 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CVS daily tarball
In-Reply-To: <14835.49843.307178.590425@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <39F39093.14248.F5BB754@localhost>

On 23 Oct 2000, at 0:46, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

> 
> >>>>> "PB" == Phil Barnett <midnight@the-oasis.net> writes:
> 
>     PB> Each Sunday morning at 2am, I completely remove my copy and
>     PB> grab a fresh copy of the entire CVS repository from PB>
>     SourceForge.
> 
> I don't have time at the moment to look at thise, but do you mean you
> do a fresh "cvs co" each time?  That means you get the working files
> and not the repository (all the ,v files).  The former is good for end
> users, the later is a safeguard for developers.

Not a copy of the repository, but a complete checkout.

Once a week:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

#!/bin/bash

export 
CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous@cvs.mailman.sourceforge.net:/cvs
root/mailman

cd /usr/local/plesk/apache/vhosts/linuxceptional.com/current_cvs
rm -r -f mailman
cvs checkout -P mailman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Daily:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

#!/bin/bash

export 
CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous@cvs.mailman.sourceforge.net:/cvs
root/mailman

if [ -d 
/usr/local/plesk/apache/vhosts/linuxceptional.com/current_cvs/mail
man ]; then

  cd 
/usr/local/plesk/apache/vhosts/linuxceptional.com/current_cvs/mail
man

  cvs update -A -P -d -R
  # fix up the permissions
  find . -type d | xargs chmod 755
  find . -type f | xargs chmod 644

fi

cd /usr/local/plesk/apache/vhosts/linuxceptional.com/current_cvs

DATE=`date +%y%m%d`
PREVDATE=`date +%y%m%d --date '1 day ago'`
PREVDATE2=`date +%y%m%d --date '2 days ago'`
PREVDATE3=`date +%y%m%d --date '3 days ago'`

rm mailman-dev-$PREVDATE3.tar.gz
rm mailman-dev-$PREVDATE3.tar.bz2

tar --gzip  -cpf mailman-dev-$DATE.tar.gz  mailman
tar --bzip2 -cpf mailman-dev-$DATE.tar.bz2 mailman

rm -f ../ftp/mailman/mailman-dev*

cp -p mailman-dev* ../ftp/mailman

cd /usr/local/plesk/apache/vhosts/linuxceptional.com/ftp/mailman
chown -R linux.pleskcln *
chmod 644 *

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



-- 
              Phil Barnett  mailto:midnight@the-oasis.net
                       WWW  http://www.the-oasis.net/
                  FTP Site  ftp://ftp.the-oasis.net


From claw@kanga.nu  Tue Oct 24 03:55:33 2000
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 19:55:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Security
Message-ID: <5263.972356133@kanga.nu>

Barry,

A week or so ago (right about the time I dissappeared) I had a drive
die on the system I run Mailman from.  I thought replacing the drive
and restoring its contents from backups would be enough.  It wasn't.
It turns out that in dieing several other filesystems were corrupted
in various odd and inelegant fashions (encluding both my tripwire DB
and its backup sod it).

This has left me in an odd position:

  If I post to a specific list, or approve a held post for that
list, there is an 80% chance that this will crash the machine
(compleat lock, no interrupts, no useful log entries.

  This is reproducable.  I've done it a great many times -- enough
to wish I had a watchdog card in that machine.  Its also rather
scary -- Mailman is running as a non-privileged user after all.

As part of the recovery I've re-installed every single binary on the
entire system (encluding Python et al).  The one thing I haven't
reinstalled is Mailman (v1.1).  I also haven't dissembled or rebuilt
the config.db's for the crashing lists.

Interested in the relevant files?  I'll be saving everything off (of
course), but I doubt I'll have time in the near future to disect
this.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                               Other: coder@kanga.nu
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/        Keys etc: finger claw@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From barry@wooz.org  Tue Oct 24 04:03:47 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (barry@wooz.org)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:03:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Security
References: <5263.972356133@kanga.nu>
Message-ID: <14836.64531.975278.770422@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "JCL" == J C Lawrence <claw@kanga.nu> writes:

    JCL> A week or so ago (right about the time I dissappeared) I had
    JCL> a drive die on the system I run Mailman from.  I thought
    JCL> replacing the drive and restoring its contents from backups
    JCL> would be enough.  It wasn't.  It turns out that in dieing
    JCL> several other filesystems were corrupted in various odd and
    JCL> inelegant fashions (encluding both my tripwire DB and its
    JCL> backup sod it).

    JCL> This has left me in an odd position:

    JCL>   If I post to a specific list, or approve a held post for
    JCL> that list, there is an 80% chance that this will crash the
    JCL> machine (compleat lock, no interrupts, no useful log entries.

    JCL>   This is reproducable.  I've done it a great many times --
    JCL> enough to wish I had a watchdog card in that machine.  Its
    JCL> also rather scary -- Mailman is running as a non-privileged
    JCL> user after all.

    JCL> As part of the recovery I've re-installed every single binary
    JCL> on the entire system (encluding Python et al).  The one thing
    JCL> I haven't reinstalled is Mailman (v1.1).  I also haven't
    JCL> dissembled or rebuilt the config.db's for the crashing lists.

    JCL> Interested in the relevant files?  I'll be saving everything
    JCL> off (of course), but I doubt I'll have time in the near
    JCL> future to disect this.

I'm not sure what I can do, because I currently have no way of running
Mailman 1.1.  I could take your files and upgrade them to 2.0 and see
what happens, but I'd be surprised if I get the same hard crash.

As you say, Mailman isn't doing anything special and has no special
privs.  How could that crash or hang your system?  Maybe it's tripping
a bug in your MTA, web server, or OS.  What flavors and versions of
those do you run?

Very odd.

-Barry


From Dan Mick <Dan.Mick@West.Sun.COM>  Tue Oct 24 04:09:01 2000
From: Dan Mick <Dan.Mick@West.Sun.COM> (Dan Mick)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:09:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Security
Message-ID: <200010240307.UAA24779@utopia.west.sun.com>

>   If I post to a specific list, or approve a held post for that
> list, there is an 80% chance that this will crash the machine
> (compleat lock, no interrupts, no useful log entries.

What do you mean "crash the system"?  Panic and coredump?  Hang?
Crash mailman/python and everything else is still up?

If panic/coredump, some time spent in cursory kernel coredump
analysis is warranted to point a finger at a culprit.  Being a kernel
developer, I'm biased, but when people say "crash the machine"
that's what I think of.  Is that what you mean?



From claw@kanga.nu  Tue Oct 24 04:28:21 2000
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:28:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Security
In-Reply-To: Message from barry@wooz.org
 of "Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:03:47 EDT." <14836.64531.975278.770422@anthem.concentric.net>
References: <5263.972356133@kanga.nu>  <14836.64531.975278.770422@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <6527.972358101@kanga.nu>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:03:47 -0400 (EDT) 
barry  <barry@wooz.org> wrote:

> I'm not sure what I can do, because I currently have no way of
> running Mailman 1.1.  

I would of course be willing to prove my entire install, plus the
(Debian) package it was installed from

> I could take your files and upgrade them to 2.0 and see what
> happens, but I'd be surprised if I get the same hard crash.

Aye, that's an artificial and not very revealing test.

> As you say, Mailman isn't doing anything special and has no
> special privs.  How could that crash or hang your system?  Maybe
> it's tripping a bug in your MTA, web server, or OS.  What flavors
> and versions of those do you run?

Apache: 1.3.12
Exim: 3.10
Linux kernels: 2.2.10, 2,2,12, 2,2,16 2.2.16+ReiserFS, 2.4.0-test9 or
               2.4.0-test9+ReiserFS 

I'm certain the bug is not in Apache as it also occurs on post
passing straight to the list without going thru moderation.  It is
possible it is in Exim, tho I'd be extremely surprised.  For one
I've reinstalled all binaries from known good sources, and have
MD5ed all Exim files against both known good sources and the copies
installed on other happily running machines.  It is also unlikely
that the bug is in the kernel as I've reproduced the problem with
kernels built on other (untouched) machines and then installed on
the offending machine, and on kernels built locally from
cryptographically verified source balls.  

> Very odd.

Precisely.

As a total aside: I've become quite fond of ReiserFS.  I didn't have
it running previously to these problems, and only installed it when
I started crashing multiple times a day (while trying to figure out
why).  Its been a real life and time saver.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                               Other: coder@kanga.nu
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/        Keys etc: finger claw@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From claw@kanga.nu  Tue Oct 24 04:31:29 2000
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:31:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Security
In-Reply-To: Message from Dan Mick <Dan.Mick@West.Sun.COM>
 of "Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:09:01 PDT." <200010240307.UAA24779@utopia.west.sun.com>
References: <200010240307.UAA24779@utopia.west.sun.com>
Message-ID: <6580.972358289@kanga.nu>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:09:01 -0700 (PDT) 
Dan Mick <Dan.Mick@West.Sun.COM> wrote:

>> If I post to a specific list, or approve a held post for that
>> list, there is an 80% chance that this will crash the machine
>> (compleat lock, no interrupts, no useful log entries).

> What do you mean "crash the system"?  Panic and coredump?  Hang?
> Crash mailman/python and everything else is still up?

As stated: compleat lock, no interrupts being serviced, no log
entries.  Basically: utterly indistinguishable from a powered off
machine other than by power consumption.  No KB, no met, no stack,
no video (well, a slight grayish diffuse glow actually), nuttin'.

> If panic/coredump, some time spent in cursory kernel coredump
> analysis is warranted to point a finger at a culprit.  Being a
> kernel developer, I'm biased, but when people say "crash the
> machine" that's what I think of.  Is that what you mean?

Nope.  No panics, no cores, just one big wedgie.

These are among the reasons this whole thing fits the description of
"odd".

-- 
J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                               Other: coder@kanga.nu
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/        Keys etc: finger claw@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From barry@wooz.org  Tue Oct 24 04:31:51 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (barry@wooz.org)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:31:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Security
References: <5263.972356133@kanga.nu>
 <14836.64531.975278.770422@anthem.concentric.net>
 <6527.972358101@kanga.nu>
Message-ID: <14837.679.527309.949419@anthem.concentric.net>

You might try upgrading to Python 2.0, built from source.  Maybe
Mailman tickles something in Python that tickles something in the
kernel.

Aside from that, trying to figure out exactly which chunk of Python
code is causing the crash is the next thing to do.  I'm afraid that if
you're not getting tracebacks, you'll have to liberally sprinkle the
code with prints to track this down.

-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Tue Oct 24 04:34:18 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (barry@wooz.org)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:34:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Security
References: <200010240307.UAA24779@utopia.west.sun.com>
 <6580.972358289@kanga.nu>
Message-ID: <14837.826.957348.115293@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "JCL" == J C Lawrence <claw@kanga.nu> writes:

    JCL> As stated: compleat lock, no interrupts being serviced, no
    JCL> log entries.  Basically: utterly indistinguishable from a
    JCL> powered off machine other than by power consumption.  No KB,
    JCL> no met, no stack, no video (well, a slight grayish diffuse
    JCL> glow actually), nuttin'.

Here's another thought.  Are you running on an SMP machine?  I believe
there have been reports of older versions of Python having problems
when threads and SMPs are mixed.  Have you enabled the threading
delivery in SMTPDirect?  Turning that off, or upgrading to Python 2.0
(which I believe has fixed the problems I vaguely recall) might do the
trick.

-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Tue Oct 24 04:39:38 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (barry@wooz.org)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:39:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Security
References: <5263.972356133@kanga.nu>
 <14836.64531.975278.770422@anthem.concentric.net>
 <6527.972358101@kanga.nu>
Message-ID: <14837.1146.187349.831441@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "JCL" == J C Lawrence <claw@kanga.nu> writes:

    JCL> Apache: 1.3.12 Exim: 3.10 Linux kernels: 2.2.10, 2,2,12,
    JCL> 2,2,16 2.2.16+ReiserFS, 2.4.0-test9 or 2.4.0-test9+ReiserFS

BTW, my development platform is basically a stock RH6.1 kernel 2.2.12,
Apache 1.3.12, Postfix 19991231, Python 2.0.

-Barry


From claw@kanga.nu  Tue Oct 24 04:50:28 2000
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:50:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Security
In-Reply-To: Message from barry@wooz.org
 of "Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:31:51 EDT." <14837.679.527309.949419@anthem.concentric.net>
References: <5263.972356133@kanga.nu> <14836.64531.975278.770422@anthem.concentric.net> <6527.972358101@kanga.nu>  <14837.679.527309.949419@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <7675.972359428@kanga.nu>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:31:51 -0400 (EDT) 
barry  <barry@wooz.org> wrote:

> You might try upgrading to Python 2.0, built from source.  Maybe
> Mailman tickles something in Python that tickles something in the
> kernel.

<sigh>  I'm not keen on that as it perturbs the base condition.

> Aside from that, trying to figure out exactly which chunk of
> Python code is causing the crash is the next thing to do.  I'm
> afraid that if you're not getting tracebacks, you'll have to
> liberally sprinkle the code with prints to track this down.

Quite.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                               Other: coder@kanga.nu
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/        Keys etc: finger claw@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Tue Oct 24 04:44:45 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:44:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Security
In-Reply-To: <14836.64531.975278.770422@anthem.concentric.net>
References: <5263.972356133@kanga.nu>
 <14836.64531.975278.770422@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <p04330102b61ab5cf7d3a@[17.216.27.202]>

At 11:03 PM -0400 10/23/00, barry@wooz.org wrote:


>     JCL>   If I post to a specific list, or approve a held post for
>     JCL> that list, there is an 80% chance that this will crash the
>     JCL> machine (compleat lock, no interrupts, no useful log entries.
>
>     JCL>   This is reproducable.


>I'm not sure what I can do, because I currently have no way of running
>Mailman 1.1.  I could take your files and upgrade them to 2.0 and see
>what happens, but I'd be surprised if I get the same hard crash.

I sincerely doubt Barry would see it, because I'd be willing to bet 
dinner it's a bad block on the disk, and it's lodged in one of the 
files (probably the .db file) attached to that list.

i'd do a surface test of that disk and see if it finds problems. I'd 
give it 90% chance it will. This just screams "bad block!" at me.

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From claw@kanga.nu  Tue Oct 24 04:52:20 2000
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:52:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Security
In-Reply-To: Message from barry@wooz.org
 of "Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:34:18 EDT." <14837.826.957348.115293@anthem.concentric.net>
References: <200010240307.UAA24779@utopia.west.sun.com> <6580.972358289@kanga.nu>  <14837.826.957348.115293@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <7733.972359540@kanga.nu>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:34:18 -0400 (EDT) 
barry  <barry@wooz.org> wrote:

>>>>>> "JCL" == J C Lawrence <claw@kanga.nu> writes:

JCL> As stated: compleat lock, no interrupts being serviced, no log
JCL> entries.  Basically: utterly indistinguishable from a powered
JCL> off machine other than by power consumption.  No KB, no met, no
JCL> stack, no video (well, a slight grayish diffuse glow actually),
JCL> nuttin'.

> Here's another thought.  Are you running on an SMP machine?  

Yes.

> I believe there have been reports of older versions of Python
> having problems when threads and SMPs are mixed.  Have you enabled
> the threading delivery in SMTPDirect?  Turning that off, or
> upgrading to Python 2.0 (which I believe has fixed the problems I
> vaguely recall) might do the trick.

What I find most odd is taht I've processed several hundreds of
thousands of messages thu this exact setup without fail (200 day
uptime, half dozen lists, etc) and yet now its unhappy roughly 80%
of the time.  Something lese is odd I suspect.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                               Other: coder@kanga.nu
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/        Keys etc: finger claw@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From claw@kanga.nu  Tue Oct 24 04:57:23 2000
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:57:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Security
In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com>
 of "Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:44:45 PDT." <p04330102b61ab5cf7d3a@[17.216.27.202]>
References: <5263.972356133@kanga.nu> <14836.64531.975278.770422@anthem.concentric.net>  <p04330102b61ab5cf7d3a@[17.216.27.202]>
Message-ID: <7868.972359843@kanga.nu>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:44:45 -0700 
Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> wrote:

> I sincerely doubt Barry would see it, because I'd be willing to
> bet dinner it's a bad block on the disk, and it's lodged in one of
> the files (probably the .db file) attached to that list.

This was one of my early thoughts as well, but the fact that the
behaviour continues after I've the partitions on the system and
reformatted them with new filesystems (ReiserFS as versus Ext2FS)
rather suggests this isn't it.

> i'd do a surface test of that disk and see if it finds
> problems. I'd give it 90% chance it will. This just screams "bad
> block!" at me.

<nod> That, and the frequent crash rate was one of the things that
prompted me to put ReiserFS on.  Before I'd figured that quite a bit
had been messed up by the dieing drive I'd been seeing signs that
several filesystems were unhealthy at the filesystem level.  So I
did surface checks, restored all the files, got crashes, did new
surface checks and went to a new filesystem, rolled everything back
and go crashes...

-- 
J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                               Other: coder@kanga.nu
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/        Keys etc: finger claw@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From dan@feld.cvut.cz  Tue Oct 24 08:38:56 2000
From: dan@feld.cvut.cz (Dan Ohnesorg)
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:38:56 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Security
In-Reply-To: <6527.972358101@kanga.nu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010240916190.19146-100000@poli.feld.cvut.cz>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2000, J C Lawrence wrote:

> I'm certain the bug is not in Apache as it also occurs on post
> passing straight to the list without going thru moderation.  It is
> possible it is in Exim, tho I'd be extremely surprised.  For one
> I've reinstalled all binaries from known good sources, and have
> MD5ed all Exim files against both known good sources and the copies
> installed on other happily running machines.  It is also unlikely
> that the bug is in the kernel as I've reproduced the problem with
> kernels built on other (untouched) machines and then installed on
> the offending machine, and on kernels built locally from
> cryptographically verified source balls.  

I am running mailman from the beginning of mailman developing (John Viegas
version, Im not sure if the name is correct, but cheers John). It runs on
SMP machine and I have never such a problem. I have seen problems with
forking of sendmail into 1000 processes while delivering messages in big
(500 members) lists after comminting pending request. It is normal and I
have solving it by changing the parametr, whichwas called like number of
delivering processes.
But my kernel was never confused from this like Yours. I would say, Your
memory chips are wrong. User space program can never corupt filesystem. 

cheers
dan



-- 
                    ________________________________________
DDDDDD             
DD   DD                Dan Ohnesorg, supervisor on POWER     
DD  OOOO               Dan@feld.cvut.cz
DD OODDOO              Dep. of Power Engineering
DDDDDD OO              CTU FEL Prague, Bohemia
   OO  OO              work: +420 2 24352785;+420 2 24972109
    OOOO               home: +420 311 679679;+420 311 679311
                    ________________________________________

Spatril jsem ji tak jak ji panbuh stvoril.
  A stal se ateistou.




From fil@bok.net  Tue Oct 24 10:41:19 2000
From: fil@bok.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:41:19 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bug in confirmation mesaage headers
Message-ID: <20001024114119.A8818@orwell.bok.net>

A bug :  the confirmation message (aka verify.txt) headers are bad in
2.0b6

List-Subscribe: <../listinfo/listname>, ...
List-Unsubscribe: <../listinfo/listname>, ...





From fil@bok.net  Tue Oct 24 10:55:02 2000
From: fil@bok.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:55:02 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bug in confirmation mesaage headers
In-Reply-To: <20001024114119.A8818@orwell.bok.net>; from fil@bok.net on Tue, Oct 24, 2000 at 11:41:19AM +0200
References: <20001024114119.A8818@orwell.bok.net>
Message-ID: <20001024115502.B8818@orwell.bok.net>

Here's the patch :

*** Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py     2000/10/06 21:06:28     1.16
--- Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py     2000/10/24 09:53:10
*************** def process(mlist, msg, msgdata):
*** 100,115 ****
          listid = mlist.description + ' ' + listid
      requestaddr = mlist.GetRequestEmail()
      subfieldfmt = '<%s>, <mailto:%s?subject=%ssubscribe>'
!     listinfo = mlist.GetScriptURL('listinfo')
      #
      # TBD: List-Id is not in the RFC, but it was in an earlier draft so we
      # leave it in for historical reasons.
      headers = {
          'List-Id'         : listid,
          'List-Help'       : '<mailto:%s?subject=help>' % requestaddr,
          'List-Unsubscribe': subfieldfmt % (listinfo, requestaddr, 'un'),
          'List-Subscribe'  : subfieldfmt % (listinfo, requestaddr, ''),
          'List-Post'       : '<mailto:%s>' % mlist.GetListEmail(),
          }
      #
      # First we delete any pre-existing headers because the RFC permist only
--- 100,115 ----
          listid = mlist.description + ' ' + listid
      requestaddr = mlist.GetRequestEmail()
      subfieldfmt = '<%s>, <mailto:%s?subject=%ssubscribe>'
!     listinfo = mlist.GetScriptURL('listinfo', absolute=1)
      #
      # TBD: List-Id is not in the RFC, but it was in an earlier draft so we
      # leave it in for historical reasons.
      headers = {
          'List-Id'         : listid,
          'List-Help'       : '<mailto:%s?subject=help>' % requestaddr,
          'List-Unsubscribe': subfieldfmt % (listinfo, requestaddr, 'un'),
          'List-Subscribe'  : subfieldfmt % (listinfo, requestaddr, ''),
          'List-Post'       : '<mailto:%s>' % mlist.GetListEmail(),
          }
      #
      # First we delete any pre-existing headers because the RFC permist only


* Fil (fil@bok.net) écrivait :
> 
> A bug :  the confirmation message (aka verify.txt) headers are bad in
> 2.0b6
> 
> List-Subscribe: <../listinfo/listname>, ...
> List-Unsubscribe: <../listinfo/listname>, ...


From ckolar@admin.aurora.edu  Tue Oct 24 15:51:11 2000
From: ckolar@admin.aurora.edu (Christopher Kolar)
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:51:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] b6, postfix/qrunner super disaster
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001024092309.0345f550@admin.aurora.edu>

Hi all.  I know that one man's disaster is another man's chuckle at an 
incompetent amateur system administrator, but here goes.

I am running 2b6 under Mandrake 7.1 using postfix as an MTA.  Last Thursday 
I posted a note to a small mail list but the note never showed up.  I 
posted to the users list on that matter.  First off I addressed the locking 
problem and deleted the locks/ files.  That did not solve the problem, so I 
then looked at the smtp log and saw that Mm was trying to send the message, 
but was getting a return of:
         host not found
when trying to send the 20 copies of the message.  I messed around with it, 
and saw qrunner trying to resend the message every minute, and figured that 
it must be a temporary DNS problem with my ISP and left it alone.  During 
this process I monitored both the normal qrunner cron operations and also 
tried to manually push the queue by evoking the qrunner command line that 
is found in the cron file.

Then I left for four days in San Francisco.

When I got back I discovered that I had 20 new sworn enemies.  Sunday 
morning, as if by magic, the mail actually got delivered, 1400 copies of 
it.  Now I realize that I may have done something really stupid along the 
way, but I also think that it may be worthwhile to figure out what 
happened.  I am wondering if qrunner got the error message and kept the 
item in qfiles, but postfix also deferred delivery of the message and kept 
it in the MTA mqueue -- growing by one copy a minute until the server was 
able to successfully find the recipients' hosts.

If anyone would like to do some forensics on this I would be happy to share 
log file data, both from Mailman and the regular mail log.  Thanks in 
advance for thinking about this problem and what the cause of it may have been.

--chris

--
/////\\\\\/////\\\\\
  Christopher G. Kolar
    Director, Department of Instructional Technology
    Aurora University, Aurora, Illinois
  ckolar@admin.aurora.edu  --  www.aurora.edu/~ckolar
         [PGP Public Key ID: 0xC6492C72]



From claw@kanga.nu  Wed Oct 25 19:14:40 2000
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:14:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Security
In-Reply-To: Message from Dan Ohnesorg <dan@feld.cvut.cz>
 of "Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:38:56 +0200." <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010240916190.19146-100000@poli.feld.cvut.cz>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010240916190.19146-100000@poli.feld.cvut.cz>
Message-ID: <11722.972497680@kanga.nu>

On Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:38:56 +0200 (CEST) 
Dan Ohnesorg <dan@feld.cvut.cz> wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Oct 2000, J C Lawrence wrote:
>> I'm certain the bug is not in Apache as it also occurs on post
>> passing straight to the list without going thru moderation.  It
>> is possible it is in Exim, tho I'd be extremely surprised.  For
>> one I've reinstalled all binaries from known good sources, and
>> have MD5ed all Exim files against both known good sources and the
>> copies installed on other happily running machines.  It is also
>> unlikely that the bug is in the kernel as I've reproduced the
>> problem with kernels built on other (untouched) machines and then
>> installed on the offending machine, and on kernels built locally
>> from cryptographically verified source balls.

> I am running mailman from the beginning of mailman developing
> (John Viegas version, Im not sure if the name is correct, but
> cheers John). 

As have I.

> It runs on SMP machine and I have never such a problem. 

Ditto.  I currently have various versions of Mailman running on
three SMP systems without problems.  The fact that this particular
(other) SMP system is having Mailman problems does not seem related
to SMP.

> I have seen problems with forking of sendmail into 1000 processes
> while delivering messages in big (500 members) lists after
> comminting pending request. 

This is a common MTA configuration issue, most often seen with QMail
FWLIW.  MTA tuning, especially as mail volumes grow, is a bit of an
art.  There was some interesting discussion on this area between Me
and Chug on this list a couple months back you might want to look
at.

> But my kernel was never confused from this like Yours. I would
> say, Your memory chips are wrong. User space program can never
> corupt filesystem.

It is possible I have bad RAM.  It seems rather unlikely however
(see below),

You are missing data from the beginning of the thread.

I had a disk die (it held various mail archives).  In dieing it not
only took down the system, but also succeeded in trashing various
bits of other filesystems on other devices.  Among the files trashed
were the tripwire database and its backups.  This was not apparent
when I replaced the drive and restored all relevant files from
known-good/secure backups.

Given the new drive, the system remained unstable, crashing
frequently (uptime measured in single digit hours).  This is as
compared to a previous uptime of near 200 days.

I then replaced every binary on the system from original verified
packages, encluding the kernel (built a new kernel locally from
cryptographicslly signed and checked sources, using a new
hand-checked .config).

Crashes continued and seemed to be coincident with mail travelling
thru Mailman, either thru the weba approval process, or direct
through to the exploder (no approval)

The MTA at this point appeared to be happy.  Several tens of
thousands of messages a day travel through that system, and were
successfully passing through the system between crashes (my
secondary MXes were dumping mail onto the system at a rate of well
over 2K messages per minute upon rebooting from an extended crash --
which the system took quite happily).  All crashes were observed to
be time coincident with Mailman mail activities.

Suspecting bad disk blocks and potentially other hidden filesystem
troubles I then replaced all filesystems (except / and /boot) on the
system with journalling filesystems (ReiserFS), doing a surface
check on all partitions before putting the new filesystems on.  I
again replaced every binary on the system from confirmed correct
packages, and built a new kernel on a known secure machine from
crypographically signed and checked sources.  Additionally I double
checked by doing MD5Sum signature comparisons of key binaries on the
target system, with specific attention paid the the mail system,
against a known secure system.  They matched perfectly.  

Finally I ran a semi-burn-in on the system: leaving it over night
continuously building kernels AND using SCP to send those kernels to
and from a remote box (to hit the network stack) with MD5 checks on
each end AND sending an average of 25K mail messages per minute to a
another system on the local net (100base-T connected).  The next
morning there was not a single error in any file, all SCP copies had
compleated without error, all MD5 checks were passed, and neither
MTA listed any problems (the messages themselves were
bit-bucketted).

I then rolled the box back into production.

Crashes continued.

They also continued after building a new kernel on the target
machine -- from similarly verified sources (needed a slight tweak).

I then replaced mailman from known good sources.

Crashes continued.

I've now removed all bytecoded files in the Mailman installation.
Additionally I've hand unrolled and re-rolled the config.db for one
of the lists that appears to be creating troubles.  The unrolled DB
looked good.  Additionally, as I had in excess of 30K messages in my
MTA spool pending delivery to assorted unresponsive remote systems
and I suspected that a corrupted queue file might have been causing
problems with Exim (which does briefly run as a privileged user), I
hand moved all spool entries from the target system to another
known-stable/secure system.

We'll see what happens now.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                               Other: coder@kanga.nu
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/        Keys etc: finger claw@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From jasonr@aristotle.bomis.com  Wed Oct 25 21:40:04 2000
From: jasonr@aristotle.bomis.com (Jason Richey)
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:40:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Posts by "Posters" not archived
Message-ID: <20001025154004.D23290@aristotle.bomis.com>

Is this the regular (desired) behaviour?

When someone who is listed as a "Poster" posts to a list, it is not
archived. 

I am running 2.0beta2.  I apologize if this has already been
addressed.


-- 
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr@aristotle.bomis.com>



From Nigel.Metheringham@VData.co.uk  Thu Oct 26 18:26:12 2000
From: Nigel.Metheringham@VData.co.uk (Nigel Metheringham)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:26:12 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] htdig indexing
Message-ID: <E13oqn6-0007nY-00@rioja.localnet>

This is a multipart MIME message.

--==_Exmh_7713113640
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I've been playing with Richard's htdig indexing patches for mailman 
(they are in the patches set for 2.0beta6 on sourceforge).  I've 
finally got it working to my satisfaction just as I'm about to be away 
for a bit so I am rushing this out now....

I have not looked at 2.0rc1 so I don't know whether the indexer patches 
went into that.

The enclosed patch makes the following changes:-

  1. Turns off the index/noindex additions to the TOC files
     since they are already marked with the META tags as noindex
     and the combination appeared to be confusing htdig and making
     the indexes less useful.

  2. Changes the URLs used to match the web urls for the list
     (previously tended to use the machine hostname instead).

You can see the effect at
	http://www.exim.org/pipermail/exim-users/

[which is an invitation for it to stop working]

Patch attached is relative to Richard's 2 patches - ie apply both of 
his ones *first*.

	Nigel.


--==_Exmh_7713113640
Content-Type: application/x-patch ; name="index-finalisation.patch"
Content-Description: index-finalisation.patch
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="index-finalisation.patch"
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--==_Exmh_7713113640
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

[ - Opinions expressed are personal and may not be shared by VData - ]
[ Nigel Metheringham                  Nigel.Metheringham@VData.co.uk ]
[ Phone: +44 1423 850000                         Fax +44 1423 858866 ]

--==_Exmh_7713113640--




From Moneymaker67@aol.com  Fri Oct 27 07:09:57 2000
From: Moneymaker67@aol.com (Moneymaker67@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:09:57 EDT
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] (no subject)
Message-ID: <5d.27618c3.272a7635@aol.com>

HI,WHAT'S UP ? WITH JON ?   THINK FUZZY NAVELS ARE ROYALTIES
THEY ARE SO GOOD LIKE LYRICS THEY ARE SO EASY .IT BRINGS LOTS OF
LUCK , LOTS OF GOOD AND IT DON'T MATTER TO ME ANYMORE WHAT GOES 
ON I'M WELL KNOWN NOW ,GUESS I'LL BE SOMEBODY BECAUSE I NEVER 
GAVE UP , I'VE COME TO FAR TO GIVE UP NOW . WELL YOU TAKE CARE 
I'M BETTER THAN I'VE EVER BEEN , I FEEL NOTHING ANYMORE.
GUESS WRITTING HAS THAT EFFECT ON SOMEONE.
                                                                              
   SEFFNERPLUM
                                                                    JON LORD 
HELLO 


From joe@apollo.wuacc.edu  Fri Oct 27 15:00:40 2000
From: joe@apollo.wuacc.edu (Joe Hewitt)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:00:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding elements to config.db
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010270853130.944-100000@apollo.wuacc.edu>

I've been moving a number of our lists to mailman in recent days and the
question about additional data to qualify subscribers has come up.

Some listowners want to know who the subscriber is and what their role is.
All are working the legal community and more sensitive about such matters 
than the normal human.

So the question is: can I or should I add new elements like username or
userrole to config.db?  What are the ramifications?  

And can I define new variables in the needed programs of Mailman?

I must confess that I'm still using Mailman 1.1. Could I address my
problem with Mailman 2.x?

Any insights are appreciated.


 Joe Hewitt joe@apollo.wuacc.edu



From barry@wooz.org  Fri Oct 27 19:54:08 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 14:54:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bug in confirmation mesaage headers
References: <20001024114119.A8818@orwell.bok.net>
Message-ID: <14841.53072.597144.457759@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "F" == Fil  <fil@bok.net> writes:

    F> A bug : the confirmation message (aka verify.txt) headers are
    F> bad in 2.0b6

    | List-Subscribe: <../listinfo/listname>, ...
    | List-Unsubscribe: <../listinfo/listname>, ...

    F> Here's the patch :

Thanks.  Applied.
-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Fri Oct 27 20:40:35 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:40:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] b6, postfix/qrunner super disaster
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001024092309.0345f550@admin.aurora.edu>
Message-ID: <14841.55859.226402.488206@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CK" == Christopher Kolar <ckolar@admin.aurora.edu> writes:

    CK> I am wondering if qrunner got the error message and kept the
    CK> item in qfiles, but postfix also deferred delivery of the
    CK> message and kept it in the MTA mqueue -- growing by one copy a
    CK> minute until the server was able to successfully find the
    CK> recipients' hosts.

You're using SMTPDirect.py right?  Let's look at how deliver() works:

- It tries to create an smtplib.SMTP instance, passing in the hostname
  and port that you've specified in mm_cfg.py (or inherited from
  Defaults.py).

  This step could raise a socket.error or a general SMTPException.
  The assumption is that if that happens, the MTA never got the
  message and essentially delivery failed for all recipients.

- Next, the SMTP.sendmail() method is called to sent the message text
  to the list of recipients.  One of two things could happen here:

  a. an SMTPRecipientsRefused is raised, meaning that some but not all
     of the recipients had delivery problems.  The exception object
     has an attribute which contains the failing recipients.  The
     assumption here is that delivery failed to those recipients.

  b. the sendmail() method could return a list of failed recipients
     similar to (a) above.

- Each failed recipient has a corresponding error code describing why
  that recipient failed.  Each failed recipient is processed in turn:

  a. If the error code is >= 500 but <> 552, then the failure is
     deemed permanent according to RFC 821 and DRUMS.  That address is
     RegisterBounce()'d and discarded.

  b. Otherwise the failure is deemed temporary, so Mailman remembers
     the address for retry.

- If there are any retryable addresses, the message remains in the
  qfiles queue and retried with the temmporary failure recipients.

So, the only thing I can guess at is that Postfix is returning a
temporary failure code for recipients which it still tries to do
delivery.  Simon Coggins reports similar symptoms with sendmail, but
I've never seen them, and I suspect that the situation causing these
must be pretty rare.

So that's the idea behind SMTPDirect.py, but I still don't know enough
to understand what's causing the dups.  Could it be some
misunderstanding of the RFC 821 error codes?

-Barry


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Sat Oct 28 08:18:54 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 00:18:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] fyi -- possible problem with mailman
Message-ID: <p04330103b6202dcaf7b0@[209.239.169.197]>

haven't had a chance to debug this, but.. It looks like mailman (b6) 
has a problem if it's processing the queue and it can't connect to 
it's SMTP host.

On the system I just upgraded, my SMTP would start rejecting messages 
because of load. And I'm seeing lots of zero length files come in 
because of it. They seem to be related.

I'll sniff more details when I get a chance, but I'm definitely 
seeing a rash of zero length files being sent to (as far as I can 
tell) the admin of the list, and it seems to be tied to this. I 
think...

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From steffen@wflin3.asta.uni-wuppertal.de  Sat Oct 28 19:29:22 2000
From: steffen@wflin3.asta.uni-wuppertal.de (Steffen Bardolatzi)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 20:29:22 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug in Mailman Beta 6?
Message-ID: <20001028202922.A7164@wflin3.asta.uni-wuppertal.de>

We got the following error log:

Oct 25 16:31:00 2000 (4885) Bouncer exception: body
Oct 25 16:31:00 2000 (4885) Traceback (innermost last):
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/BouncerAPI.py", line 65, in
ScanMessages
    mlist.RegisterBounce(addr, msg)
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncer.py", line 141, in RegisterBounce
    self.HandleBouncingAddress(addr, msg)
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncer.py", line 236, in HandleBouncingAddress
    text = text + \
AttributeError: body

... in combination with:


Oct 25 16:31:00 2000 (4885) unknownlist:  - unknownuser@domain.ext
exceeded limits
Oct 25 16:31:00 2000 (4885) Alleasr: disabled
unknownuser@domian.ext

[hosts and e-mail address anonymized]


Obviously, disabling of an adress due to more than the allowed number of
bounces causes this error message.


Does this bug is going to be fixed in mailman 2.0 final?


Thanks in advance.


From Dan.Mick@west.sun.com  Sat Oct 28 20:08:26 2000
From: Dan.Mick@west.sun.com (Dan Mick)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:08:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug in Mailman Beta 6?
References: <20001028202922.A7164@wflin3.asta.uni-wuppertal.de>
Message-ID: <39FB242A.A820E307@west.sun.com>

I remember an attempt at a fix, and it looks like your version of Bouncer.py is not
up-to-date (don't see a version in your message).  I think it's fixed.

Steffen Bardolatzi wrote:
> 
> We got the following error log:
> 
> Oct 25 16:31:00 2000 (4885) Bouncer exception: body
> Oct 25 16:31:00 2000 (4885) Traceback (innermost last):
>   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/BouncerAPI.py", line 65, in
> ScanMessages
>     mlist.RegisterBounce(addr, msg)
>   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncer.py", line 141, in RegisterBounce
>     self.HandleBouncingAddress(addr, msg)
>   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncer.py", line 236, in HandleBouncingAddress
>     text = text + \
> AttributeError: body
> 
> ... in combination with:
> 
> Oct 25 16:31:00 2000 (4885) unknownlist:  - unknownuser@domain.ext
> exceeded limits
> Oct 25 16:31:00 2000 (4885) Alleasr: disabled
> unknownuser@domian.ext
> 
> [hosts and e-mail address anonymized]
> 
> Obviously, disabling of an adress due to more than the allowed number of
> bounces causes this error message.
> 
> Does this bug is going to be fixed in mailman 2.0 final?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers@python.org
> http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers


From ctambour@hotmail.com  Sun Oct 29 04:55:37 2000
From: ctambour@hotmail.com (craig tamboury)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 04:55:37 GMT
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Feature/Forum
Message-ID: <F10kcJse1fTvOSQeSOz00002f67@hotmail.com>

     Hi. I'm looking for a Feature/Forum for the following topic that I can 
be directed to or find out if one can be created. "Rights VS Regulation", 
"Do we really write the Law?" "Beyond Politics" "Just what is Radical 
Reform?" something along those lines.

Also this 3,172 word doc. is too long for most newspaper sections. I think 
it qualifies as being "newsworthy" in a part the "Fourth Estate" and I can't 
find anyone to "Mail" it to. Any feedback or re-direction would be greatly 
appreciated. My kid's soccer listserver turned out to be very helpful in 
directing Field Sriping/Score Card/etc. info but I'm not entirely sure what 
role the Developers at python play.                                     
Thanks


     Able adamz, leader of The Civil-American War, understands The Rule of 
Law and swears to uphold & defend the facts in the Declaration of 
Independence and the process of the Constitution. 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
     Thirteen years ago in April, this announcement was not allowed to run 
in the Argus Courier Newspaper in Petaluma under the Announcement section in 
the Classified ads.
     Previous paid announcement were:
     2-27-1985: Able adamz is running for President this next election.
     3-18-1987: Able adams is now acting President of these 50 United 
States, Leader of
    The Civil-American War.
      3-30 1987: Able adamz, Leader of the Civil American War, pledges 
allegiance to the Democracy of these 50 United States of America and to the 
Republic for which it stands, one Nation, Indivisible with Liberty and 
Justice for all.
      They had a policy not to run anything containing an address at which 
the person did not live. Two letters were then mailed.  One addressed "Able 
adamz/1600 Pennsylvania Ave." & one labeled "1600 Pennsylvania Ave."  They 
were both returned stamped "Returned for Better Address".  After telling the 
Editor there was no address contained in the announcement and it was a 
"Right" to have it run, he said he wasn't going to debate about freedom of 
the press.  He said it was his newspaper and suggested to have it carried in 
an UNDERGROUND newspaper.  After a few non-productive calls to the ACLU it 
became apparent there was no interest to pursue the issue.
     At that time the most common definition of the word "Politician" had 
all ready changed from its original meaning "Politico/Legislative 
Representative" to "Someone who misused words for political gain".  Today it 
is synonymous with "Scumbag; A person who knowingly misrepresents issues for 
personal/political gain/power and self-esteem".
     We are legislating/programming the limits of our legal behavior in the 
form of what we call law.  We humans have been doing this 
legislating/proclaiming/mandating for THOUSANDS of years.  Democracy is over 
1,000 years old. Working Republics are older than that.
    Over two hundred years ago when equality and individual rights were 
written into the foundation of our American Government, we changed forever 
the idea that Aristocracies or Armies were the only way to protect the 
people of a Nation.  Protecting the Rights/Property/Liberty etc. of the 
individual through the enforcement of law protects the borders in which that 
individual lives as well.
     50 States, 50 sets of laws, 1 Nation?
      The American Revolution was fought mostly just NOT to be ruled by 
someone else. Specifically King George/England.  What kind of "Rule" we 
would win for ourselves was a dream containing bits and parts of other 
governments that painted a picture of something different to everyone.
     The world changing concepts of our now:  Check and Balance System, 
Separation of Church and State, Rights, Equality, Liberty etc. all rolled 
into one, are argueably due to sheer luck, trying to meet a deadline, mental 
exhaustion after a War and the right people being at the right place at the 
right time.  The latter through their own determination.
     The American Civil War was fought on a narrower focus:  "There is no 
backing out!".
     The protections our forefathers gave us will ALWAYS apply to the people 
and soil for which it was intended.  A Nation called America.  I personally 
still get goosebumps thinking about what these events have meant to mankind.
     WWII, without argument, was defending against world domination.  Due to 
the arrival of mass communication and the formation of Political alliances, 
there was no ignoring the procession of War Machines that were changing the 
sovereignty of countries so fast and indiscriminately that sides formed as a 
matter of default. Neutrality was as ineffective as the League of Nations.  
Good ideas, but unrealistic to rely on to defend your borders under the 
circumstances.
     The United States was not fighting for independence from an unjust 
Ruler nor to stop Secession nor to come to the aid of Countries that 
couldn't defend themselves (Korean /Viet Nam Conflict).  We were fighting 
for our very survival in a World without an all powerful referee or "Rule 
Book".
      History tells us that Empires of the past have controlled vast areas 
of what we call "Civilization" for considerable amounts of time but it is 
obvious that none could meet the needs of controlling different cultures of 
people.
     "Civilized", is how the people of a Nation/Society/Empire/Tribe act 
toward one another.  Possessions, wealth, table manners, technology, 
advanced education are irrelevant factors when gauging the "Peacefulness" of 
a society.
          This is where "The Law" comes in.
     Written Law may not be necessary in today's "Tribal" (Rural/Low 
technology) societies where oral tradition and living off the land are the 
way of life but it has been a part of almost every society bigger than "A 
handful" for over 3,000 years.
     Since the end of WWII, the United State along with the rest of the 
world has been working on the Rule Book (International Law) through the 
United Nations.  The clear-cut intent is to reduce the chance of War between 
Nations through education, co-operation & The Rule of Law (A determination 
of the applicable rule as distinguished from the finding of fact). Like our 
Check & Balance System, the U.N. has a World Court, Peace Keeping Troops and 
a Legislative Body. This is as much as we can do outside America, but what 
about inside?
     American Law (of our own making) which is mandating the legal limits of 
our behavior is based on our Rights to pursue our liberties in society VS. 
our responsibility to respect (not infringe upon) the Rights of others.  
This appears to be the first premise of our program. The "Source Code" from 
which we can see the difference between Right (our Rights) and Wrong (Legal 
infringements upon others).  [NOTE- if this program/software can be 
proprietary in nature, I hereby claim it in the name of Able adamz lest some 
claim jumper beats me to the Patent/Copyright office. Amen].  At this level 
of the program it appears you have the Right to Pursue your way in life 
(Work/Leisure/Interests) until one of your actions result in the 
infringement of the Rights of another (Victim).
      Example: Driving down the road with the right of way you get hit by a 
car not having the right of way.  Some of the" Applicable Rules" that come 
into play now are Vehicle Code & Insurance Code. If more facts emerge 
(Injury or Death to passengers, Under the influence, Drag racing) more 
"Applicable Rules" apply (Criminal Codes, Manslaughter, etc).  That is how 
simple the use of the "Rule of Law" is to understand.  Regardless of how 
many facts are involved, it just tells you to match them up with the 
"Applicable Rules" broken.
     Even though we know they are still developing, children as young/old as 
5 or 6 are expected to know certain things that are "Wrong" to do. Taking, 
hitting, saying mean untrue things about someone, scratching paint off the 
neighbor's car with a nail they found, throwing their candy wrapper on the 
ground or peeing in somebody's pool.  By 12 to 14 years young/old, we have 
explained, iterated and re-iterated these "Wrong" things at home & school.  
"I didn't know that" becomes a response un-believed. Possibly a lie? When 
they hit 18/Adulthood these "Wrongs" described become Theft, Battery, 
Slander, Littering and Polluting, all punishable by "Fines" and or "Jail 
time". "I didn't know that" becomes "Ignorance of the Law is no excuse". 
What happened to the formal Training & Testing we give for "Every Other" 
subject we teach in school?
     Without argument, learning to "Be a Good Citizen", is implied as a part 
of the "Educational Process". Raising/lowering the "American/State" flags, 
saying the "Pledge of Allegiance", playing "The Star Spangled Banner" & 
"Mandatory Attendance" are reminders.
     "Learning" to be a good citizen is just that. Taking a Subject/Life 
Skill that is "Now and always will be" necessary to be understood in the 
course of your everyday life and "Teaching" it in a way so we can gauge the 
level of comprehension.
     To the best of my knowledge, there is no "Curriculum" or "Standard of 
Comprehension" in this Subject/Life Skill called "Citizenship/The Law".
     "How a Bill Becomes a Law" and any of the other "Processes" of how 
Government works is a more "Specialized" subject matter. "Voting" is a more 
"Practical" subject. A Candidate/Initiative is proposed. Voters inform 
themselves of their choices. Voters vote. Majority (Highest Percentage, Over 
2/3's, etc.) Rules win. Simple. This may happen 2 or 3 times a year. Knowing 
the "Electoral College" is what really elects the President and the "Popular 
Vote" is virtually useless/worthless, is a trivial Game Show question. It 
only comes up once every 4 years.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Now is the time to explain how the text of this Article/Document ties 
in to "The Civil-American War" (As opposed to the American Civil War of 
1864) & the proposed "Take Over of America".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
      "The Civil-American War" is the "Un-Declared" War that is most closely 
associated with the "Peace Movement" & the "Human Rights" cause.
     It is a battle to incorporate the "Apparent" "First Premise/Source 
Code/Liberty Within Responsibility" into the real "Rule Book" of America. 
The limits by which we can proceed in a "Civilized" society are:

                                       RULES OF ENGAGEMENT:

Rule #1. -  No Littering
                  No Fighting
                  No Theft or Destruction of Property

     As "Littering/Polluting" on a large scale comes full circle & ties into 
"Destruction of Property", this is a "Closed Set" of "Rules" that represents 
infringements upon others.
     The general range of  "Fighting" starts with Accosting (Speaking to 
someone/stranger on the street first/impeding the progress of) to "Battery" 
(Grabbing someone when you speak to them/Striking), Assault, Rape, 
Manslaughter & ending at the ultimate; Murder.
     "Theft" includes: Stealing/Burglary/Robbery & Fraud/ Embezzlement/White 
Collar Crime; "Taking something that is not yours to take".
     "Destruction of Property" is "Causing the need of repair/replacement to 
the property     of another, either Personal, Shared or Public.
     These "Rules" appear to be "The Law" in a nutshell.
Rule # 2. -Recognize Law as it is written. Change/Amend/Reform as needed.

     The choices one makes within the legal limits of the "Rules/Law" are 
"Moral & Ethical" standards. "Morals" associated with Religious convictions 
& "Ethics" associated with Business/Fair Play".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                        ISSUES:
      3 issues that "The Civil-American War" represents are easy to 
understand & are based on "Non-Compliance" to the "First Premise & the "Rule 
of Law"".
     Corporate Responsibility.
      The Business Vehicle called a "Corporation" has been granted the 
"Rights" of an "Individual" to facilitate its function as 
Manufacturer/Producer/Employer of goods and services that used to be done by 
"Government" in areas regarding the publics "Right of Use". Transportation & 
Communication are 2 examples.
     The "Limited Responsibility" afforded to the CEO/Administrators of the 
"Corporation" acts to "Distance" the "Direct Responsibility" of the 
CEO/Administrators from having to appear every time a Grievance/Lawsuit 
against them is brought before a "Court of Law". This is akin to the 
"President of the United States" having to appear in "Court" every time the 
"Government" is sued. In both cases, it "Obviously Could" lead to the 
disruption of  "Services Provided" in the "Publics Right of Use" by 
disrupting managements Communication/Decision Making process.  In "No Way" 
does it relieve the "Corporation" from "Any Liability" that it may cause.
     "Fine & or imprisonment".
    The "Corporation" in today's society can be viewed as a "Juggernaut War 
Machine" indiscriminately gobbling up "Sovereign" businesses through 
"Hostile Take Over" with "Monopolistic" intent causing sides to be formed by 
default.  "Neutrality" and the "Better Business Bureau" are good ideas, but 
unrealistic under the circumstances.
     What people want spelled out in "Legal Language" is: If a "Corporation" 
is found to "Know About" and then "Cover Up" safety issues in the "Products 
or Services" they provide and "Death" results due to those safety issues, a 
"REAL HUMAN(s)" will be "FACING THE FAMILY & FRIENDS in a "Court of Law" 
while being tried as an alleged "Criminal" for Negligence/Manslaughter/etc. 
just like an owner/operator or individual would be. The too often, "MONETARY 
COMPENSATION ONLY WITH NO ADMISSION OF GUILT" settlement scenario does not 
satisfy the demands of the "First Premise & the "Rule of Law""
     The Leader of a Country can be tried for "War Crimes" even though 
"Protecting the interests of my citizens" is his defense. Corporation. 
Stockholders?
    VICTIMLESS CRIME: States can't control "Rights" granted a citizen 
through "Prohibition" (by prohibiting them). Personal Drug use, Trading for 
Sex & Gambling are 3 common areas. Regulating (Not in the view of the 
Public, Operating a Motorized Vehicle, Under the age of 18/21, Zoning, etc.) 
is the Maximum Limitation allowed. (See American Civil War).

     DEATH PENALTY/SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES/DETERRENT:
     If you litter, you can go back & pick-up. If you pollute, you can go 
back & clean up. If you steal, you can give back & when you destroy you can 
repair/replace. Some injuries can heal & medical expenses can be paid.
     Killing is the taking of a life. Life is non replaceable. Even if we 
clone that individual, the original "Heart" &  "Soul" is gone forever.
     The "Death Penalty" is "NOT" on the books to be a "Deterrent". When we 
sentence someone to "Death", it is for the "PERSON(s)" they "MURDERED". We 
even say something like "For the crime of murder in the first degree, the 
State sentences you to Death by Lethal Injection/electrocution/Firing 
Squad/etc. We do not say "If it were up to me I'd sentence you to "Life 
Imprisonment Without the Possibility of Parole" but we are making a 
sacrifice/example out of you. Sorry for the heavy-handedness"
    "Special Circumstances" is a "Recent" condition to consider for 
"Sentencing Purposes". Even if we agree that "By taking someone else's life 
you must give up yours in return", the problem with the "Death Penalty" is, 
we have killed "INNOCENT" citizens.  We have proven this. And we can't take 
it back.
      "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" may be enough to take away someone's 
"Liberty" for "Years" to "Life", but the 100% accuracy needed to "Justify" 
Killing in "My" name or "Your" name simply does not exist. A "Civilized" 
society does not gamble with "Non Replaceable" lives.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        THE TAKE OVER OF AMERICA

     The Declaration of  "The Civil-American War" is not "Against" the 
"Current Administration". It is about "Officially Recognizing" the line that 
has been drawn in the sand that represents the differences in the "United 
States" over what our "Basic Rights" are. "Rights" are an "Either/Or" 
proposition. It is about "Legislating" those "Rights" through our only 
"Official" " Congress & Senate" to be enforced by our "Executive Branch" and 
"IF" need be, decided by our "Judicial Branch". The "Battle" is the 
understanding that by accepting (opting in) to the "Rules of Engagement" we 
have limited our "Course of Action", but we "ARE" no less, trying to oust 
from a "Position of Power", "Anyone" (Politician/Moron) who is "Against" the 
successful accomplishment of this goal. Rhetorical Debate is the "Only" way 
to "Prove" the pen is mightier than the sword. A "Bloodless Coup" (A sudden 
shift in Power without disruption) is more along the "Gist" of what it 
means. The outcome of "Life & Death" decisions being made on a daily basis 
in this Country would "Substantially" be different. The shift of time/money 
spent NOT violating (Arresting/Prosecuting under current Law) our "Rights" 
would be "Substantial".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   "SUPPORTING THE WAR EFFORT/SALES PITCH"

     To say your vote doesn't "Directly Elect" the President is a "Fact". 
The tally of the "Electoral Votes" does.  Frankly, it seems pretty 
useless/worthless to make people even count that check/ box/line except:
     "Worth" has a monetary value. If the "Average American" made $30,000 
year for a 50-week, 40hr, 8hr a day job, it comes out to roughly 3 cents a 
minute. A minute is more than enough time to check or write-in a vote for 
the "Presidency"(most choices usually have a "vice" attached to them).
      "Use" has a value. While your "Ballot" vote doesn't "Directly Elect" 
the President, it shows who you "Supported".
     This "Support" can be gauged on a percentage scale in relation to all 
the "Candidates".                      Your "Ballot" vote is also "Done in 
Secret".
     Nobody knows if you "Really" voted for whom you said you would.
      You can write-in A-b-l-e/a-d-a-m-z to show your "Support", no one need 
ever know & "It can't affect the outcome of the election", especially if 
you've voted for some "Crazy Nut/Politician".
     In this age of "The Billionaire", isn't it amazing the "Real" power and 
value "3 Lincoln Head Pennies" still hold? They may not buy you a pack of 
"Life Savers" anymore but they certainly can go a long way toward "Buying" 
the "Forum" for a more level "Playing Field" under the "Rules/Law".
     If you were to give 3 cents to your "Political Party", they wouldn't 
spend the time or effort to hold their hand out for it.
     If you give 3 cents to Able adamz, you would be told, "Save your money, 
it isn't needed. (Campaign Reform?)
      If you give the "Value", "in 3 cents/sense of your time", by writing 
in "Able adamz", on your "American Ballot", "This next Election", you have 
"Officially Recognized" the "Civil-American War" by showing your "Support".  
"Using" your Useless, Worthless, Popular, Throw Away Ballot vote in this 
fashion will bring a "Focus" to "Issues" which admittedly, shouldn't be 
expected to "Shut Down" the daily Administrative Responsibilities in 
carrying out the functions of "Enforcing the Law" the way it is written, but
     The "Urgency" of this Article/Document could be viewed as "Timeless" 
since "This Next Election" is always "Just around the Corner"' but 
"Timeless" it is not.
      "When", not "If", the "Electoral College" process of selecting the 
President is abandoned in favor of "Direct Vote", you will "Never Again" 
have the opportunity to "Use" your vote (For a Leader selected from 
Political Party choice through Proxy- see Politician) to "Focus" on 
unresolved "Issues" that lie in the "Source Code" of our "American Program".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                       PERSPECTIVE
     The above "Grievances" seem to come with a "Resolution" included or 
implied. It is "Disjointed at times. All loose ends have not been tied 
together. Forward-looking statements are minimal. The "forum" for "Issues" 
means "Web Site" for information and stricter "Moderators" in T.V./College 
Rhetorical Debate.  Some sentences could be better understood if they were 
supported by a paragraph and that paragraph by a full chapter.  The use of 
"Without Argument", "Fact", "Prove", "Program", "Definition", "History tells 
us", etc. can all be argued. The reference to "Law" as a "Software Program 
was conveyed, but the difference between "First Premise" and "Source Code" 
need more clarity.  Over all it could be understood by your average 12 year 
old with little help.
     One person can only "Paint a Picture" with words to try and make him 
understood.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SIGNED:
Able adamz
Leader of the Civil-American War-By Default
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.



From ctambour@hotmail.com  Sun Oct 29 05:03:01 2000
From: ctambour@hotmail.com (craig tamboury)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 05:03:01 GMT
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd: Mailman-Developers -- confirmation of subscription -- request 321634
Message-ID: <F310cMvnamiODNFYHpZ00002ca3@hotmail.com>

confirm 321634


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.



From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Mon Oct 30 00:22:57 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:22:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my new install...
Message-ID: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>

This is more a cautionary tale then a real problem, but it brings up 
a couple of issues to chew on.

I started having major problems with mailman when I brought 
lists.apple.com live (I'll have more to say about this site later, 
since there are a couple of things I need to look into more fully 
before I core-dump on that install...)

The main problem was that I was getting huge numbers of messages to 
the -admin addresses that were blank. Zero. First, I thought it was a 
corrupted list database. then I thought it was a corrupted request 
database. Then I thought it was a corrupted message in the qfile dir 
that was causing corrupted messages to multiply. Then I didn't know 
what to think, so I just started taking the syste apart piece by 
piece and running qfile messages through ONE AT A TIME to see where 
the probelm came from. My favorite way ot spend a weekend, that's for 
sure... (grin)

End result -- one minor configuration error in the mailer. One of the 
hostnames I use wasn't set up as a local name, so sendmail kept 
erroring out trying to talk to itself in one special case. But the 
bigger issue was -- the system was doing exactly what I told it to do.

I use demime to strip incoming e-mail to the text part. this works 
really pretty well. At some point, however, instead of just attaching 
demime to the posting and -request address, I also added it to the 
admin address.

Most incoming bounces now are in MIME format. End result: they come 
to the -admin address, the mime gets stripped, and an empty message 
results. Since it's no longer a bounce message, it gets sent to the 
admin. load in a fairly dirty subscriber list and start sending 
messages -- and you get 10K blank message in your mailbox in the 
morning.

Cautionary note: after you double-check all your configuration files 
for problems, make syure you double-check all the custom stuff you 
did that you did it right. The "good" thing about this particular 
problem is that while I was busy mailbombing myself and my admins all 
weekend fighting this beast, to the end user, the site worked fine... 
If you HAVE to have problems, problems that arne't visible to the end 
user are preferable...

But it brings up a couple of issues I see with qrunner.

first, it seems like qrunner re-stats the qfiles dir and reloads its 
idea of what needs to be run. This creates a problem when you have 
lots of messages, since it's not processing things FIFO --  I found 
that some older messages were simply NEVER being run, because however 
qrunner was choosing messages out of qfiles, it wasn't choosing them. 
On a busy system, this can be a problem. I suggest instead that 
qrunner start up, grab the list of messages to run, and run them, 
oldest first, then exit. Let the next Qrunner handle what comes in in 
the meantime. That way, things are run more of a FIFO, and you don't 
get into the lost-stepchild queue file problem.

second, qrunner isn't good at letting me know what it's doing. If I'm 
trying to figure out what it's processing, it's not telling me. When 
trying to debug a possible corrupted file, that's a real hassle. It'd 
be nice if it put something in qfiles that told me what fileset it 
was working on, just so I can whack at it if I need to.

all in all, it's been a, um, fun weekend. But I now have demime doing 
what it's supposed to be doing, and it is working a LOT better. And 
it explains (in retrospeect) why, knowing the subscriber lists were 
dirty, I wasn't seeing very many bounces... (grumble. That should 
have been a hint. Hindsight is fun...)

*now* it's stable... (I think)

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From claw@kanga.nu  Mon Oct 30 00:47:11 2000
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:47:11 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my new install...
In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com>
 of "Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:22:57 PST." <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
Message-ID: <29318.972866831@kanga.nu>

On Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:22:57 -0800 
Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> wrote:

> Be just, and fear not.

Sheesh, you're having more fun than I am.  (Very nice job on the
site there BTW)  

Latest status from me on the security stuff -- which happily points
away from Mailman and Python:

I started out by installing a firmware-based watchdog that would
auto-reboot the system when it locked (these are the references to
IPMI and EMP (Intel-specific things) -- basically the mainboard
firmware, running out of ASICs and not off the CPU, will hit the
power reset line if it doesn't get touched every 30 seconds).

I have been driving myself silly trying to figure out what is
causing the instability with Kanga.Nu, and getting nowhere.  There's
36Gig of disk on that box and I've near bit-walked thru every byte
in there.  A few minutes ago I opened a dozen plus terms on the box,
all tailing various logfiles or spinning on displaying various
system stats (mostly /proc stuff), plus an extra term on the
localhost pinging the target to see (nearly) exactly it went down
(if it did).  I then approved two posts for posting on a ~1K member
list.  The posts went thru Mailman, hit the MTA, were fully received
by the MTA, everything was looking normal and the queue runners were
busy delivering copies and every stat and logfile on the system
looked happy.

Then the ping stopped.  Every system stat I was reporting on
(memory, everything) looked good -- but the machine was down.
Reading thru the dozen or so terms and what they were reporting as
of the instant the box died revealed, well, nothing.  Everything
looked very very good -- except for the fact that it was now dead.

A few minutes later, after some time for the EMP watchdog to kick in
(30 seconds), and the longest POST in recorded history (Intel
Nightshade MB has a multi-minute-long POST that cannot be
shortened), back up it popped.

I'm now thinking that I may have bad memory in the box.  Certainly
physical RAM failure on one of the upper sticks could account for
such seemingly spontaneous locks.  

Oh joy.  I just love hardware problems.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                               Other: coder@kanga.nu
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/        Keys etc: finger claw@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 30 16:24:57 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:24:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] forwarded message from Guido van Rossum
Message-ID: <14845.41177.597122.785738@anthem.concentric.net>

Return-Path: <python-dev-admin@python.org>
Delivered-To: bwarsaw@mail.wooz.org
Received: from dinsdale.python.org (dinsdale.python.org [132.151.1.21])
	by mail.wooz.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44C7D35C1
	for <barry@wooz.org>; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:40:18 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from dinsdale.python.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by dinsdale.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 66E701D076; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:40:30 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: python-dev@python.org
Received: from cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com (cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com [24.15.191.133])
	by dinsdale.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 4B95B1D145; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:39:18 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com (IDENT:guido@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
	by cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05020;
	Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:42:42 -0500
Message-Id: <200010280142.UAA05020@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com>
Errors-To: python-dev-admin@python.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Help: <mailto:python-dev-request@python.org?subject=help>
List-Post: <mailto:python-dev@python.org>
List-Subscribe: <http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev>,
	<mailto:python-dev-request@python.org?subject=subscribe>
List-Id: Python core developers <python-dev.python.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev>,
	<mailto:python-dev-request@python.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/>
From: Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org>
Sender: python-dev-admin@python.org
To: python-list@python.org (Python mailing list),
	python-announce-list@python.org, python-dev@python.org
Subject: [Python-Dev] PythonLabs Team Moves to Digital Creations
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:42:42 -0500
X-BeenThere: python-dev@python.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6

To all Python users and developers:

Less than half a year ago, I moved with my team to BeOpen.com, in the
hope of finding a new permanent home for Python development.  At
BeOpen, we've done several good things for Python, such as moving the
Python and Jython development process to SourceForge, and the
successful release of Python 2.0.

Unfortunately, BeOpen.com's original plans for PythonLabs didn't work
out as hoped, and we weren't able to reach mutual agreement on
workable alternative plans -- despite trying for months.

I am proud to have found a new home for my entire team: starting
today, Tim Peters, Barry Warsaw, Jeremy Hylton, Fred Drake and myself
are working for Digital Creations.  We will be spending part of our
time on core Python development (including Jython and Mailman) and
part of our time on Python infrastructure improvements that also
benefit Zope.

Python will remain Open Source; Digital Creations has no desire to
monetize or brand the Python language or specific Python
distributions.  All future work we do on Python as Digital Creations
employees will be owned by a non-profit organization yet to be
created.  We think of this new organization as the Python Software
Foundation.  In the meantime (while the PSF is under construction) I
will own such copyrights personally.

We're excited to be working for Digital Creations: they are one of the
oldest companies active in the Python community, one of the companies
most committed to Python, and they have a great product!  Plus, we
know they have deep financial backing.  We trust that Digital
Creations will provide a stable home for Python for many years.

Digital Creations has also offered to take over hosting of the
python.org and starship sites.  On behalf of the Python community,
we're grateful for this support of the two prime community sites for
Python, and we expect to be implementing the transitions shortly.

These are exciting times for the PythonLabs team -- and also for
Python and its community.  Mainstream successes for Python are showing
up everywhere, and we're proud to be a part of such a smart and
friendly community.  A great year lies ahead!

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 30 16:24:57 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:24:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] forwarded message from Guido van Rossum
Message-ID: <14845.41177.597122.785738@anthem.concentric.net>

Return-Path: <python-dev-admin@python.org>
Delivered-To: bwarsaw@mail.wooz.org
Received: from dinsdale.python.org (dinsdale.python.org [132.151.1.21])
	by mail.wooz.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44C7D35C1
	for <barry@wooz.org>; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:40:18 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from dinsdale.python.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by dinsdale.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 66E701D076; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:40:30 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: python-dev@python.org
Received: from cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com (cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com [24.15.191.133])
	by dinsdale.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 4B95B1D145; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:39:18 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com (IDENT:guido@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
	by cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05020;
	Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:42:42 -0500
Message-Id: <200010280142.UAA05020@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com>
Errors-To: python-dev-admin@python.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Help: <mailto:python-dev-request@python.org?subject=help>
List-Post: <mailto:python-dev@python.org>
List-Subscribe: <http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev>,
	<mailto:python-dev-request@python.org?subject=subscribe>
List-Id: Python core developers <python-dev.python.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev>,
	<mailto:python-dev-request@python.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/>
From: Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org>
Sender: python-dev-admin@python.org
To: python-list@python.org (Python mailing list),
	python-announce-list@python.org, python-dev@python.org
Subject: [Python-Dev] PythonLabs Team Moves to Digital Creations
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:42:42 -0500
X-BeenThere: python-dev@python.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6

To all Python users and developers:

Less than half a year ago, I moved with my team to BeOpen.com, in the
hope of finding a new permanent home for Python development.  At
BeOpen, we've done several good things for Python, such as moving the
Python and Jython development process to SourceForge, and the
successful release of Python 2.0.

Unfortunately, BeOpen.com's original plans for PythonLabs didn't work
out as hoped, and we weren't able to reach mutual agreement on
workable alternative plans -- despite trying for months.

I am proud to have found a new home for my entire team: starting
today, Tim Peters, Barry Warsaw, Jeremy Hylton, Fred Drake and myself
are working for Digital Creations.  We will be spending part of our
time on core Python development (including Jython and Mailman) and
part of our time on Python infrastructure improvements that also
benefit Zope.

Python will remain Open Source; Digital Creations has no desire to
monetize or brand the Python language or specific Python
distributions.  All future work we do on Python as Digital Creations
employees will be owned by a non-profit organization yet to be
created.  We think of this new organization as the Python Software
Foundation.  In the meantime (while the PSF is under construction) I
will own such copyrights personally.

We're excited to be working for Digital Creations: they are one of the
oldest companies active in the Python community, one of the companies
most committed to Python, and they have a great product!  Plus, we
know they have deep financial backing.  We trust that Digital
Creations will provide a stable home for Python for many years.

Digital Creations has also offered to take over hosting of the
python.org and starship sites.  On behalf of the Python community,
we're grateful for this support of the two prime community sites for
Python, and we expect to be implementing the transitions shortly.

These are exciting times for the PythonLabs team -- and also for
Python and its community.  Mainstream successes for Python are showing
up everywhere, and we're proud to be a part of such a smart and
friendly community.  A great year lies ahead!

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev

------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users maillist  -  Mailman-Users@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users



From Nigel.Metheringham@VData.co.uk  Mon Oct 30 16:50:31 2000
From: Nigel.Metheringham@VData.co.uk (Nigel Metheringham)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:50:31 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Feature request - open list with non-member posts marked
Message-ID: <E13qI8l-0007gG-00@rioja.localnet>

This came up on the reiserfs list:-

hans@reiser.to said:
> One other thing we could consider doing is tagging all emails from
> nonsubscribers specially so that people can choose whether to filter
> them out.

Its an interesting idea - an open list but with an additional tag 
(ideally an optional subject munging - except that would tend to 
propagate into future postings from members too - and a header added or 
changed so that filters could recognise it)

[I'm not necessarily hugely keen on this, but its an interesting idea 
which merits further discussion and maybe adding to a future features 
list.

	Nigel.
-- 
[ - Opinions expressed are personal and may not be shared by VData - ]
[ Nigel Metheringham                  Nigel.Metheringham@VData.co.uk ]
[ Phone: +44 1423 850000                         Fax +44 1423 858866 ]




From thomas@xs4all.net  Mon Oct 30 18:20:05 2000
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 19:20:05 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] forwarded message from Guido van Rossum (fwd)
Message-ID: <20001030192005.F12812@xs4all.nl>

Anyone else notice something weird about the mail below ? It was sent by
Guido to python-dev, where Barry picked it up from and sent it to both
mailman-developers and mailman-users. I am only subscribed to
mailman-developers, and I got it twice. What's more, the second mail seems
to have gone to mailman-developers *through* mailman-users. Notice the extra
list-sig at the obttom of the mail, and extra [listname] in the subject.

Bug in Mailman ? ;-P

----- Forwarded message from "Barry A. Warsaw" <barry@wooz.org> -----

Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:24:57 -0500 (EST)
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Sender: mailman-developers-admin@python.org
To: catholic.org@catholicnet.org.uk
Cc: mailman-developers@python.org
Cc: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] forwarded message from Guido van Rossum

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:42:42 -0500
From: Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org>
Sender: python-dev-admin@python.org
To: python-list@python.org (Python mailing list),
	python-announce-list@python.org, python-dev@python.org
Subject: [Python-Dev] PythonLabs Team Moves to Digital Creations

To all Python users and developers:

[[ .. snip .. ]]

_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev

------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users maillist  -  Mailman-Users@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users


_______________________________________________
Mailman-Developers mailing list
Mailman-Developers@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Thomas Wouters <thomas@xs4all.net>

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Mon Oct 30 18:55:54 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 10:55:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] User feedback on www.lists.apple.com (round one)
Message-ID: <p04330100b6237a83a062@[209.239.169.197]>

it's monday, so users are starting to weigh in on the ugpraded 
server. For the most part, it's pretty positive.

with one exception. they hate the text digest format. And in fact, 
one user pointed out (correctly, it seems) that it's not conformant 
with the digest RFC:

	<http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1153.txt>

Looks like mailman as it's set up doesn't use a conformant separator, 
and doesn't order header lines properly to the RFC.

Also, I've had a number of requests to bump the volume number. That 
one is pretty badly hidden (it seems to be in Mailman/MailList.py). 
That really needs to be made configurable through Defaults.PY, as 
should (IMHO) the  separator (which is hidden in  Handers/ToDigest.py 
as MIME_NONSEPARATOR.

it'd be Really Nice, also, if there were some programmatic way to 
bump the volume, so it could be stuffed into cron and run at 0:00 
1/1/*. And, to be honest, volume numbers need to (eventually) be 
per-list...

These are primarily cosmetic issues, but I really think most of them 
need to be looked at before 2.0 ships. Per-list volumes is beyond the 
scope of this release, but the rest need to be looked at, especally 
since the Mailman digest format breaks everyone's 
digest-auto-processors (and yes, MIME digests are the real answer, 
but not everyone is ready for them yet, and there's no reason to 
arbitrarily break things...0

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 30 20:38:29 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:38:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] User feedback on www.lists.apple.com (round one)
References: <p04330100b6237a83a062@[209.239.169.197]>
Message-ID: <14845.56389.347563.392271@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    CVR> it's monday, so users are starting to weigh in on the
    CVR> ugpraded server. For the most part, it's pretty positive.

Cool!

    CVR> with one exception. they hate the text digest format. And in
    CVR> fact, one user pointed out (correctly, it seems) that it's
    CVR> not conformant with the digest RFC:

    CVR> 	<http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1153.txt>

    CVR> Looks like mailman as it's set up doesn't use a conformant
    CVR> separator, and doesn't order header lines properly to the
    CVR> RFC.

Right on both counts.

    CVR> Also, I've had a number of requests to bump the volume
    CVR> number. That one is pretty badly hidden (it seems to be in
    CVR> Mailman/MailList.py).  That really needs to be made
    CVR> configurable through Defaults.PY, as should (IMHO) the
    CVR> separator (which is hidden in Handers/ToDigest.py as
    CVR> MIME_NONSEPARATOR.

    CVR> it'd be Really Nice, also, if there were some programmatic
    CVR> way to bump the volume, so it could be stuffed into cron and
    CVR> run at 0:00 1/1/*. And, to be honest, volume numbers need to
    CVR> (eventually) be per-list...

Actually, they are per-list.  The attributes are mlist.volume and
mlist.next_digest_number.  It's easier at this point to add a small
cron script to do the bumping, which I've attached below, and will
include in 2.0 final.

As far as fixing the plain text digest format to be RFC 1153
compliant, I agree it should be done.  But to do it right requires
more changes than I'm comfortable with for 2.0 final.  I've put it on
the TODO list and will fix it for 2.1.

[Aside: I use XEmacs/VM as my primary MUA and it groks the plain
digest format just fine, so I've never seen this problem!  Think you
can get all your users to "upgrade" their MUAs? :) ]

-Barry

-------------------- snip snip --------------------cron/bumpdigests
#! /usr/bin/env python
#
# Copyright (C) 1998,1999,2000 by the Free Software Foundation, Inc.
#
# This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
# modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
# as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2
# of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
# 
# This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
# but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
# MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
# GNU General Public License for more details.
# 
# You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
# along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software 
# Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA.

"""Increment the digest volume number and reset the digest number to zero.

Usage: %(PROGRAM)s [options] [listname ...]

Options:

    --help/-h
        Print this message and exit.

The lists named on the command line are bumped.  If no list names are given,
all lists are bumped.
"""

import sys
import getopt

import paths
from Mailman import MailList
from Mailman import Utils
from Mailman import Errors

# Work around known problems with some RedHat cron daemons
import signal
signal.signal(signal.SIGCHLD, signal.SIG_DFL)

PROGRAM = sys.argv[0]



def usage(code, msg=''):
    print __doc__ % globals()
    if msg:
        print msg
    sys.exit(code)



def main():
    try:
        opts, args = getopt.getopt(sys.argv[1:], 'h', ['help'])
    except getopt.error, msg:
        usage(1, msg)

    for opt, arg in opts:
        if opt in ('-h', '--help'):
            usage(0)

    if args:
        listnames = args
    else:
        listnames = Utils.list_names()

    if not listnames:
        print 'Nothing to do.'
        sys.exit(0)

    for listname in listnames:
        try:
            # be sure the list is locked
            mlist = MailList.MailList(listname)
        except Errors.MMListError, e:
            usage(1, 'No such list: %s' % listname)
        try:
            mlist.volume = mlist.volume + 1
            mlist.next_digest_number = 1
        finally:
            mlist.Save()
            mlist.Unlock()



if __name__ == '__main__':
    main()


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 30 20:59:58 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:59:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my new install...
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
Message-ID: <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    CVR> first, it seems like qrunner re-stats the qfiles dir and
    CVR> reloads its idea of what needs to be run.

It shouldn't.  As soon as it enters main(), it does a listdir() of the
qfiles dir.  Once it's processed everything it sees in that listing,
it exits.  qrunner can exit sooner if a few kludgey resource
management parameters are exceeded, but a single invocation of qrunner
should never list the directory a second time.

It /could/ be that if you've just got tons of messages in the queue
and Mailman has a hard time keeping up, files that are unlucky enough
to always show up at the end of the directory listing will never get
processed.
    
    CVR> This creates a problem when you have lots of messages, since
    CVR> it's not processing things FIFO -- I found that some older
    CVR> messages were simply NEVER being run, because however qrunner
    CVR> was choosing messages out of qfiles, it wasn't choosing them.

If you see files that are never getting run, and you don't think
you're seeing problem above, do a dumpdb of the corresponding .db
file.  If you see a `pipeline' entry, say with SMTPDirect in the
pipeline, chances are you're getting errors in that delivery module
and Mailman's keeping it on the queue.  Check logs/smtp for details.

    CVR> second, qrunner isn't good at letting me know what it's
    CVR> doing.

A sin of much of the system currently.  I hope I can revamp and
improve the logging facility for 2.1.

-Barry


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Mon Oct 30 21:04:16 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 13:04:16 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my new
 install...
In-Reply-To: <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]>

At 3:59 PM -0500 10/30/00, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

>It shouldn't.  As soon as it enters main(), it does a listdir() of the
>qfiles dir.  Once it's processed everything it sees in that listing,
>it exits.  qrunner can exit sooner if a few kludgey resource
>management parameters are exceeded, but a single invocation of qrunner
>should never list the directory a second time.
>
>It /could/ be that if you've just got tons of messages in the queue
>and Mailman has a hard time keeping up, files that are unlucky enough
>to always show up at the end of the directory listing will never get
>processed.

Okay, interesting. it sure seemed like stuff was hanging out from run 
to run, but the system was having a few issues at the time, so it 
could have been erro related as well.


>If you see files that are never getting run, and you don't think
>you're seeing problem above, do a dumpdb of the corresponding .db
>file.  If you see a `pipeline' entry, say with SMTPDirect in the
>pipeline, chances are you're getting errors in that delivery module
>and Mailman's keeping it on the queue.  Check logs/smtp for details.

ah, that probably explains it. There were circumstances where the 
SMTP host started rejecting due to load, and those probably cascaded.

That seems to open up mailman to duplicate deliveries, FWIW. I think 
I ran into the same issue here Chris Kolar did...


-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 30 21:11:18 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (barry@wooz.org)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:11:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my new
 install...
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]>
Message-ID: <14845.58358.917069.840811@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    CVR> ah, that probably explains it. There were circumstances where
    CVR> the SMTP host started rejecting due to load, and those
    CVR> probably cascaded.

    CVR> That seems to open up mailman to duplicate deliveries,
    CVR> FWIW. I think I ran into the same issue here Chris Kolar
    CVR> did...

Can you explain in more detail what "SMTP host started rejecting due
to load" means?  Do you mean the socket connect failed, or the SMTP
server returned error codes, or something else.

I ask because I have a simple Python smtpd for testing and if I can
configure it to reproduce exactly the error conditions your seeing
with sendmail, I can try to debug the dups problem.  I'd /really/ like
to do that before 2.0 final goes out, since others are seeing this
problem too (mostly sendmail users it seems though).

Thanks,
-Barry


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Mon Oct 30 21:13:05 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 13:13:05 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] glitch in new bumpdigests tool
Message-ID: <p0433010cb62394ca1d56@[17.216.27.202]>

Barry:


lists.apple.com 249# ~chuq/bumpdigests
Traceback (innermost last):
   File "/export/home/chuq/bumpdigests", line 35, in ?
     import paths
ImportError: No module named paths


-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From ddickey@wamnet.com  Mon Oct 30 21:28:53 2000
From: ddickey@wamnet.com (Dan A. Dickey)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:28:53 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my newinstall...
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]> <14845.58358.917069.840811@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <39FDE815.D5A7C514@wamnet.com>

barry@wooz.org wrote:
> 
> >>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:
> 
>     CVR> ah, that probably explains it. There were circumstances where
>     CVR> the SMTP host started rejecting due to load, and those
>     CVR> probably cascaded.
> 
>     CVR> That seems to open up mailman to duplicate deliveries,
>     CVR> FWIW. I think I ran into the same issue here Chris Kolar
>     CVR> did...
> 
> Can you explain in more detail what "SMTP host started rejecting due
> to load" means?  Do you mean the socket connect failed, or the SMTP
> server returned error codes, or something else.
> 
> I ask because I have a simple Python smtpd for testing and if I can
> configure it to reproduce exactly the error conditions your seeing
> with sendmail, I can try to debug the dups problem.  I'd /really/ like
> to do that before 2.0 final goes out, since others are seeing this
> problem too (mostly sendmail users it seems though).
> 
> Thanks,
> -Barry

I'm not sure if this is relevant or not, but I did report some time
ago a problem in python's smtplib.py that leaked fd's, and brought
about a bug in MailList.py (Mailman 1.1).
As far as I'm aware, this bug was not fixed in Mailman's copy of
smtplib.py,
nor in the new version of Python.  It lost file descriptors when
sendmail
quit accepting connections due to too high of a load.
	-Dan

-- 
Dan A. Dickey
ddickey@wamnet.com


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Mon Oct 30 21:31:19 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 13:31:19 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my newinstall...
In-Reply-To: <39FDE815.D5A7C514@wamnet.com>
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]>
 <14845.58358.917069.840811@anthem.concentric.net>
 <39FDE815.D5A7C514@wamnet.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010eb62399071ccd@[17.216.27.202]>

At 3:28 PM -0600 10/30/00, Dan A. Dickey wrote:
>
>I'm not sure if this is relevant or not, but I did report some time
>ago a problem in python's smtplib.py that leaked fd's, and brought
>about a bug in MailList.py (Mailman 1.1).
>As far as I'm aware, this bug was not fixed in Mailman's copy of
>smtplib.py,
>nor in the new version of Python.  It lost file descriptors when
>sendmail
>quit accepting connections due to too high of a load.
>	-Dan

and when you run out of fd's, you get an error attempting to connect 
and exit. I'll bet that's it, Dan.

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 30 21:34:23 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:34:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] glitch in new bumpdigests tool
References: <p0433010cb62394ca1d56@[17.216.27.202]>
Message-ID: <14845.59743.507124.379121@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    | lists.apple.com 249# ~chuq/bumpdigests
    | Traceback (innermost last):
    |    File "/export/home/chuq/bumpdigests", line 35, in ?
    |      import paths
    | ImportError: No module named paths

Ah sorry.  You need to drop that in $prefix/cron.

-Barry


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Mon Oct 30 21:37:59 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 13:37:59 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] glitch in new bumpdigests tool
In-Reply-To: <14845.59743.507124.379121@anthem.concentric.net>
References: <p0433010cb62394ca1d56@[17.216.27.202]>
 <14845.59743.507124.379121@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <p04330110b6239aa97f73@[17.216.27.202]>

At 4:34 PM -0500 10/30/00, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

>Ah sorry.  You need to drop that in $prefix/cron.

thanks. that did it.

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 30 21:52:39 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (barry@wooz.org)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:52:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my newinstall...
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]>
 <14845.58358.917069.840811@anthem.concentric.net>
 <39FDE815.D5A7C514@wamnet.com>
 <p0433010eb62399071ccd@[17.216.27.202]>
Message-ID: <14845.60839.987095.914578@anthem.concentric.net>

Okay, let me try to reproduce this.  I guess I don't even need my
smtpd.py :)

@anthem[[~/projects/mailman:1073]]% telnet localhost 9999
Trying 127.0.0.1...
telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: Connection refused

-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 30 22:33:04 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (barry@wooz.org)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 17:33:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my newinstall...
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]>
 <14845.58358.917069.840811@anthem.concentric.net>
 <39FDE815.D5A7C514@wamnet.com>
 <p0433010eb62399071ccd@[17.216.27.202]>
Message-ID: <14845.63264.757040.80907@anthem.concentric.net>

I'm still having trouble reproducing dups.  I set SMTPPORT=9999 in
mm_cfg.py, sent a bunch of messages into the system, and manually ran
cron/qrunner a bunch of times.  They all fail as expected (connection
refused), and I see the log messages in smtp/post, exactly as I
expect.  The .db files look right -- they all have entries for
`pipeline' which start with SMTPDirect.py.

I comment out the SMTPPORT, re-run qrunner and all the messages go
through exactly once.

;(

Any other ideas?  Do you see any other relevant messages in any of the
other log files?

-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Tue Oct 31 05:36:58 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 00:36:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding elements to config.db
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010270853130.944-100000@apollo.wuacc.edu>
Message-ID: <14846.23162.253433.280661@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "JH" == Joe Hewitt <joe@apollo.wuacc.edu> writes:

    JH> So the question is: can I or should I add new elements like
    JH> username or userrole to config.db?  What are the
    JH> ramifications?

You could, sure.  I think the hardest part will be keeping the various
data structures in sync.  It shouldn't affect Mailman's operation,
except perhaps to slow it down (because there's more data to marshal
and unmarshal).

    JH> And can I define new variables in the needed programs of
    JH> Mailman?

Not sure what you're asking here.  It's easy to add attributes to the
list objects, and Mailman's infrastructure will just happily persist
them.

    JH> I must confess that I'm still using Mailman 1.1. Could I
    JH> address my problem with Mailman 2.x?

Sure, why not?

-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Tue Oct 31 06:08:40 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 01:08:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug in Mailman Beta 6?
References: <20001028202922.A7164@wflin3.asta.uni-wuppertal.de>
 <39FB242A.A820E307@west.sun.com>
Message-ID: <14846.25064.361397.731039@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "DM" == Dan Mick <Dan.Mick@west.sun.com> writes:

    DM> I remember an attempt at a fix, and it looks like your version
    DM> of Bouncer.py is not up-to-date (don't see a version in your
    DM> message).  I think it's fixed.

Yes, it should be fixed in 2.0rc1.

-Barry


From ddickey@wamnet.com  Tue Oct 31 15:50:25 2000
From: ddickey@wamnet.com (Dan A. Dickey)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 09:50:25 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my newinstall...
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]>
 <14845.58358.917069.840811@anthem.concentric.net>
 <39FDE815.D5A7C514@wamnet.com> <p0433010eb62399071ccd@[17.216.27.202]>
Message-ID: <39FEEA41.DD840F34@wamnet.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------3D3D106F4EC8D41A8A1F6716
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Chuq Von Rospach wrote:
> At 3:28 PM -0600 10/30/00, Dan A. Dickey wrote:
> >I'm not sure if this is relevant or not, but I did report some time
> >ago a problem in python's smtplib.py that leaked fd's, and brought
> >about a bug in MailList.py (Mailman 1.1).
> >As far as I'm aware, this bug was not fixed in Mailman's copy of
> >smtplib.py,
> >nor in the new version of Python.  It lost file descriptors when
> >sendmail
> >quit accepting connections due to too high of a load.
> >       -Dan
> 
> and when you run out of fd's, you get an error attempting to connect
> and exit. I'll bet that's it, Dan.

I won't bet on it, but I will go so far as to say it has a possibility.

barry@wooz.org wrote:
> I'm still having trouble reproducing dups.  I set SMTPPORT=9999 in
> mm_cfg.py, sent a bunch of messages into the system, and manually ran
> cron/qrunner a bunch of times.  They all fail as expected (connection
> refused), and I see the log messages in smtp/post, exactly as I
> expect.  The .db files look right -- they all have entries for
> `pipeline' which start with SMTPDirect.py.
> 
> I comment out the SMTPPORT, re-run qrunner and all the messages go
> through exactly once.
> 
> ;(
> 
> Any other ideas?  Do you see any other relevant messages in any of the
> other log files?

Running out of fd's is somewhat of a problem.  It was a bit tricky
to find - since, once you are out of fds - you can't really open up
a file to drop a log message into it.

Bleah.  I was just looking around for my patches so I could attach them,
and I'm sorry for a bit of misinformation - the problem is not in
MailList.py; that was a different change I made to Mailman.
The problem is indeed directly in smtplib.py.
The patch I made to it to fix the fd leak problem is attached.
If this fixes the problem, you win your bet Chuq.  :)
	-Dan

P.S. - Please keep in mind that this patch was against
pythonlibs/smtplib.py
from Mailman 1.1.  I have yet to move up to 2.0 (waiting for it to
become stable).
P.P.S - Yes, this bug and patch needs to get to the Python group.
  Sooner the better I'd say.

-- 
Dan A. Dickey
ddickey@wamnet.com
--------------3D3D106F4EC8D41A8A1F6716
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;
 name="smptlib.fdleak.patch"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="smptlib.fdleak.patch"

*** pythonlib/smtplib.py.orig	Thu Dec  9 08:48:44 1999
--- pythonlib/smtplib.py	Mon Apr 24 10:09:28 2000
***************
*** 213,219 ****
          if not port: port = SMTP_PORT
          self.sock = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
          if self.debuglevel > 0: print 'connect:', (host, port)
!         self.sock.connect(host, port)
          (code,msg)=self.getreply()
          if self.debuglevel >0 : print "connect:", msg
          return (code,msg)
--- 213,224 ----
          if not port: port = SMTP_PORT
          self.sock = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
          if self.debuglevel > 0: print 'connect:', (host, port)
! 	try:
!             self.sock.connect(host, port)
! 	except:
! 	    if self.debuglevel > 0: print 'connect failed, raising sock.error'
! 	    self.close()
! 	    raise socket.error, "connect failed"
          (code,msg)=self.getreply()
          if self.debuglevel >0 : print "connect:", msg
          return (code,msg)

--------------3D3D106F4EC8D41A8A1F6716--



From barry@wooz.org  Tue Oct 31 15:56:58 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (barry@wooz.org)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 10:56:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my newinstall...
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]>
 <14845.58358.917069.840811@anthem.concentric.net>
 <39FDE815.D5A7C514@wamnet.com>
 <p0433010eb62399071ccd@[17.216.27.202]>
 <39FEEA41.DD840F34@wamnet.com>
Message-ID: <14846.60362.67176.863415@anthem.concentric.net>

How about this patch instead?  If it looks good to you, I'll add it to
pythonlib/smtplib.py and upload it to the Python project's patch
manager.

-Barry

-------------------- snip snip --------------------
Index: smtplib.py
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/python/python/dist/src/Lib/smtplib.py,v
retrieving revision 1.29
diff -u -r1.29 smtplib.py
--- smtplib.py	2000/09/01 06:40:07	1.29
+++ smtplib.py	2000/10/31 15:55:51
@@ -214,7 +214,11 @@
         if not port: port = SMTP_PORT
         self.sock = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
         if self.debuglevel > 0: print 'connect:', (host, port)
-        self.sock.connect((host, port))
+        try:
+            self.sock.connect((host, port))
+        except socket.error:
+            self.close()
+            raise
         (code,msg)=self.getreply()
         if self.debuglevel >0 : print "connect:", msg
         return (code,msg)


From ddickey@wamnet.com  Tue Oct 31 16:24:55 2000
From: ddickey@wamnet.com (Dan A. Dickey)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 10:24:55 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my newinstall...
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]>
 <14845.58358.917069.840811@anthem.concentric.net>
 <39FDE815.D5A7C514@wamnet.com>
 <p0433010eb62399071ccd@[17.216.27.202]>
 <39FEEA41.DD840F34@wamnet.com> <14846.60362.67176.863415@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <39FEF257.E90796AE@wamnet.com>

barry@wooz.org wrote:
> How about this patch instead?  If it looks good to you, I'll add it to
> pythonlib/smtplib.py and upload it to the Python project's patch
> manager.

Looks good to me.	-Dan

-- 
Dan A. Dickey
ddickey@wamnet.com


From barry@wooz.org  Tue Oct 31 16:40:14 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (barry@wooz.org)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 11:40:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my newinstall...
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]>
 <14845.58358.917069.840811@anthem.concentric.net>
 <39FDE815.D5A7C514@wamnet.com>
 <p0433010eb62399071ccd@[17.216.27.202]>
 <39FEEA41.DD840F34@wamnet.com>
 <14846.60362.67176.863415@anthem.concentric.net>
 <39FEF257.E90796AE@wamnet.com>
Message-ID: <14846.62958.267146.938544@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "DAD" == Dan A Dickey <ddickey@wamnet.com> writes:

    >> How about this patch instead?  If it looks good to you, I'll
    >> add it to pythonlib/smtplib.py and upload it to the Python
    >> project's patch manager.

    DAD> Looks good to me. -Dan

Cool, done.


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Tue Oct 31 18:12:19 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 10:12:19 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] My admins speak out...
Message-ID: <p04330100b624bba50293@[209.239.169.197]>

Okay, my admins on www.lists.apple.com have had a chance ot dig out 
from the upgrade, and are starting to speak out...

And they ALL want an option to auto-reject mail sent from unsubscribed users.

Barry, can we squeeze something like this into 2.0? (he says, 
doubting it...) technically, it shouldn't be too tough, from a quick 
glance.

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From barry@wooz.org  Tue Oct 31 22:05:14 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:05:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] My admins speak out...
References: <p04330100b624bba50293@[209.239.169.197]>
Message-ID: <14847.16922.165312.701739@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    CVR> Okay, my admins on www.lists.apple.com have had a chance ot
    CVR> dig out from the upgrade, and are starting to speak out...

    CVR> And they ALL want an option to auto-reject mail sent from
    CVR> unsubscribed users.

    CVR> Barry, can we squeeze something like this into 2.0? (he says,
    CVR> doubting it...) technically, it shouldn't be too tough, from
    CVR> a quick glance.

No it shouldn't be too tough, but no it's too late to go into 2.0.
Here's a quick sketch of a hack though (untested).

If you want to make this list-specific, use bin/withlist to set an
attribute on the lists that should have this behavior.  Let's call it
`auto_reject':

-------------------- snip snip --------------------autoreject.py
def autoreject(m):
    m.auto_reject = 1
    m.Save()
-------------------- snip snip --------------------
% python bin/withlist -r autoreject -l mylist


Now, in Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py find the stanza where NonMemberPost
is raised.  Change the hold_for_approval line to something like:

    if getattr(mlist, 'auto_reject', 0):
        raise DiscardMessage
    else:
	hold_for_approval(mlist, msg, msgdata, NonMemberPost)

Doing the GUI is a bit more work, and it would be nice if each of the
hold conditions could be optionally discarded, so that's another
reason to wait and do it right for 2.1.

-Barry


From Dan Mick <Dan.Mick@West.Sun.COM>  Tue Oct 31 23:13:05 2000
From: Dan Mick <Dan.Mick@West.Sun.COM> (Dan Mick)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 15:13:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] My admins speak out...
Message-ID: <200010312311.PAA19920@utopia.west.sun.com>

>     if getattr(mlist, 'auto_reject', 0):
>         raise DiscardMessage

Very nice; had no idea that one little exception is all it
takes.

Is there anything similarly-simple to generate a generic bounce
message and discard, or is that all "call some reply method
and then raise DiscardMessage"?



From bwarsaw@beopen.com  Sun Oct  1 03:48:24 2000
From: bwarsaw@beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:48:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bug report
References: <00b501c02b2d$fe491920$6401a8c0@windows>
Message-ID: <14806.42488.3514.826412@anthem.concentric.net>

Long fixed in Mailman 2.0 beta series.


From jarrell@vt.edu  Sun Oct  1 04:46:07 2000
From: jarrell@vt.edu (Ron Jarrell)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:46:07 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] List-* header suggestion
In-Reply-To: <E13f2oH-0003WB-00@rioja.localnet>
References: <Message from Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com>
 <p04330103b5fa619f6859@[209.239.169.197]>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20000930234144.03b36a10@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>

At 05:14 PM 9/29/00 +0100, Nigel Metheringham wrote:

>jarrell@vt.edu said:
>> Umm, the headers *are* folded.. In the very note that arrived from
>> you, they were folded that way.  Unless a friendly MTA on the way to
>> me folded them for me, or unfolded them for you... 
>
>
>chuqui@plaidworks.com said:
>> they aren't on my site, ron -- it' spossible you have an MTA that
>> *is* folding them for you. Does it do laundry, too?
>
>> Folding them would be a good idea, IMHO. 
>
>I see the ones on the mailman-* lists as folded.  I see the ones from 
>the exim lists (again Mailman 2.0beta6) as unfolded.  An MTA is playing 
>silly games with the headers which is normally the sort of gratuitous 
>fiddling that sendmail does... except the system that is playing games 
>appears to be a postfix one (I expected better from Wietse).

Ok... For the curious, in my case at least, it appears to be a sendmail 8.11 thing.
I posted a test message to a newsgroup which happens to be echoed by both my
production mailman server, and my test server.  They're running on identical os's, 
sendmail versions, etc.  In this case, both are still at 8.9.3 cause i haven't had the
time to upgrade them, and they're not broke :-).  But the headers weren't folded
from my copy from the test machine, and were from the production machine.
The difference being the production machine happens to be set to use a smarthost,
which I'd forgotten I did after the last time we moved our mail relay, and I wanted
to test it in a configuration where I owned both ends...  The mail relay runs 8.11.0.
So apparently 8.11.0 prettyfies the headers as they go by. All the headers; every
long header was wrapped with the "line break and whitespace" rfc wrapping.





From roy@lamrim.com  Sun Oct  1 07:01:32 2000
From: roy@lamrim.com (Roy Harvey)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:01:32 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Great Job!
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000930230132.008628c0@lamrim.com>

Dearest Cabal --

I just want to say that Mailman is a fantastic peice of engineering. Easy
to setup, clean documentation, awesome feature set -- WOW!

Sincerely,

Roy Harvey

roy@lamrim.com
http://www.lamrim.com/
Tibetan Buddhist Internet Radio



From bwarsaw@beopen.com  Sun Oct  1 15:43:33 2000
From: bwarsaw@beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 10:43:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Great Job!
References: <3.0.5.32.20000930230132.008628c0@lamrim.com>
Message-ID: <14807.19861.28294.880011@anthem.concentric.net>

Thanks very much!


From mentor@alb-net.com  Tue Oct  3 03:10:10 2000
From: mentor@alb-net.com (Mentor Cana)
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 22:10:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "download the full raw archive"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010022206280.5021-100000@alb-net.com>

Doesn't this link run contrary to the "obscure_addresses" Option?

Even if I have the obscure_addresses Option set to YES, the e-mail
addresses of public archives can be still harvested by various robots out
there.

later,
Mentor



From juergen.erhard@gmx.net  Tue Oct  3 00:04:40 2000
From: juergen.erhard@gmx.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=FCrgen_A=2E_Erhard=22?=)
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 01:04:40 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Itchy, and thus subscribing
In-Reply-To: <20000913015220.E14713@aphid.net> (message from Jeff Waugh on
 Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:52:20 +1100)
References: <20000913010959.A14713@aphid.net> <14782.17044.337048.929318@anthem.concentric.net> <20000913015220.E14713@aphid.net>
Message-ID: <03102000.1@wanderer.local.jae.ddns.org>

--pgp-sign-Multipart_Tue_Oct__3_01:04:33_2000-1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>>>>> "Jeff" =3D=3D Jeff Waugh <jdub@aphid.net> writes:

    >> Barry A. Warsaw wrote:
    >>=20
    >> It's not on the TODO list, because it's already in the codebase. :)
    >> Moderators can optionally forward a held message to any address they
    >> want.

    Jeff> *blush*

    Jeff> Tell me that's in the 2.0 releases and not 1.1... please! :)

Don't feel to bad, Barry probably borrowed Guido's time machine... ;-)

Bye, J

--=20
J=FCrgen A. Erhard    juergen.erhard@gmx.net   phone: (GERMANY) 0721 27326
     MARS: http://members.tripod.com/Juergen_Erhard/mars_index.html
                   The 80-20 rule for an NT project:
   20% time for real coding  --  80% time for working around NT bugs

--pgp-sign-Multipart_Tue_Oct__3_01:04:33_2000-1
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.3 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iEYEABECAAYFAjnZFIcACgkQN0B+CS56qs0TRgCfXzq6rBG5D/wJdmyqDxUCm3ic
9agAn0OaHFhSJ6yv/TljjJ/v8jp2Gqvx
=UGyt
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--pgp-sign-Multipart_Tue_Oct__3_01:04:33_2000-1--


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Tue Oct  3 23:01:50 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:01:50 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] broken CVS!
Message-ID: <p04330122b60007b33216@[17.216.27.250]>

I just updated to the current CVS, and it's broken:

Traceback (innermost last):
   File "/home/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 85, in ?
     from Mailman import MailList
   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 45, in ?
     from Mailman.Archiver import Archiver
   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/__init__.py", line 17, in ?
     from Archiver import *
   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 33, in ?
     from Mailman import Mailbox
   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Mailbox.py", line 43
     <<<<<<< Mailbox.py
     ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax


-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

You seem a decent fellow. I hate to die.


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Tue Oct  3 23:08:05 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:08:05 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Cron <mailman@plaidworks> /usr/bin/python -S
 /home/mailman/cron/qrunner
In-Reply-To: <200010032201.e93M10r13238@plaidworks.com>
References: <200010032201.e93M10r13238@plaidworks.com>
Message-ID: <p04330123b60008e1791c@[17.216.27.250]>

Okay, I've tracked this down. Mailman had a probelm with the 
temporary patch I installed to fix the empty-archive thing, so it 
didn't patch in cleanly. when I updated to the CVS, the merge botched.

it's not a problem, if you installed the SECOND patch barry released, 
or didn't patch it at all.



At 3:01 PM -0700 10/3/00, Cron Daemon wrote:
>Traceback (innermost last):
>   File "/home/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 85, in ?
>     from Mailman import MailList
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 45, in ?
>     from Mailman.Archiver import Archiver
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/__init__.py", line 17, in ?
>     from Archiver import *
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 33, in ?
>     from Mailman import Mailbox
>   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Mailbox.py", line 43
>     <<<<<<< Mailbox.py
>     ^
>SyntaxError: invalid syntax

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

You seem a decent fellow. I hate to die.


From bwarsaw@beopen.com  Tue Oct  3 23:15:53 2000
From: bwarsaw@beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:15:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] broken CVS!
References: <p04330122b60007b33216@[17.216.27.250]>
Message-ID: <14810.23193.949608.60704@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    CVR> I just updated to the current CVS, and it's broken:

    CVR> Traceback (innermost last):
    CVR>    File "/home/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 85, in ?  from
    CVR> Mailman import MailList File
    CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 45, in ?  from
    CVR> Mailman.Archiver import Archiver File
    CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/__init__.py", line 17, in ?
    CVR> from Archiver import * File
    CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 33, in ?
    CVR> from Mailman import Mailbox File
    CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Mailbox.py", line 43 <<<<<<<
    CVR> Mailbox.py ^
    CVR> SyntaxError: invalid syntax

When you updated, did you see a file that got checked out with a `C'
status letter?  That means that something in your local version
conflicts with some changes in the master copy, and CVS can't resolve
it.  You have to resolve the conflicts manually.

-Barry


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Tue Oct  3 23:15:47 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:15:47 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] broken CVS!
In-Reply-To: <14810.23193.949608.60704@anthem.concentric.net>
References: <p04330122b60007b33216@[17.216.27.250]>
 <14810.23193.949608.60704@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <p04330124b6000afcf83d@[17.216.27.250]>

Yes -- it was an interim patch causing havoc.

gee, I think I'm learning python -- the hard way!


At 6:15 PM -0400 10/3/00, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:
>  >>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:
>
>     CVR> I just updated to the current CVS, and it's broken:
>
>     CVR> Traceback (innermost last):
>     CVR>    File "/home/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 85, in ?  from
>     CVR> Mailman import MailList File
>     CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 45, in ?  from
>     CVR> Mailman.Archiver import Archiver File
>     CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/__init__.py", line 17, in ?
>     CVR> from Archiver import * File
>     CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 33, in ?
>     CVR> from Mailman import Mailbox File
>     CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Mailbox.py", line 43 <<<<<<<
>     CVR> Mailbox.py ^
>     CVR> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
>
>When you updated, did you see a file that got checked out with a `C'
>status letter?  That means that something in your local version
>conflicts with some changes in the master copy, and CVS can't resolve
>it.  You have to resolve the conflicts manually.
>
>-Barry

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

You seem a decent fellow. I hate to die.


From Dan Mick <Dan.Mick@West.Sun.COM>  Tue Oct  3 23:20:16 2000
From: Dan Mick <Dan.Mick@West.Sun.COM> (Dan Mick)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:20:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] broken CVS!
Message-ID: <200010032219.PAA14252@utopia.west.sun.com>

> >>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:
> 
>     CVR> I just updated to the current CVS, and it's broken:
> 
>     CVR> Traceback (innermost last):
>     CVR>    File "/home/mailman/cron/qrunner", line 85, in ?  from
>     CVR> Mailman import MailList File
>     CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 45, in ?  from
>     CVR> Mailman.Archiver import Archiver File
>     CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/__init__.py", line 17, in ?
>     CVR> from Archiver import * File
>     CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/Archiver.py", line 33, in ?
>     CVR> from Mailman import Mailbox File
>     CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Mailbox.py", line 43 <<<<<<<
>     CVR> Mailbox.py ^
>     CVR> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
> 
> When you updated, did you see a file that got checked out with a `C'
> status letter?  That means that something in your local version
> conflicts with some changes in the master copy, and CVS can't resolve
> it.  You have to resolve the conflicts manually.

Yeah, I hate that CVS is so silent about that.  I've taken to
doing "find . -type f | xargs grep '<<<<<'" every time I do
"cvs update" (in a script).  The stuff it leaves behind is *clearly*
not usable, so I think there should be a big huge warning when it
happens, and even an "invoke $EDITOR on the manual-merge-needy".
But that's me.




From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Tue Oct  3 23:21:10 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:21:10 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] broken CVS!
In-Reply-To: <200010032219.PAA14252@utopia.west.sun.com>
References: <200010032219.PAA14252@utopia.west.sun.com>
Message-ID: <p04330125b6000bf432da@[17.216.27.250]>

At 3:20 PM -0700 10/3/00, Dan Mick wrote:

>Yeah, I hate that CVS is so silent about that.  I've taken to
>doing "find . -type f | xargs grep '<<<<<'" every time I do
>"cvs update" (in a script).


good idea. Thanks, Dan. I made one other mistake -- I'm so used to 
having no problems that I dind't checkpoint either my lists or the 
source before updating. Oops. Fortunately, I *also* keep a generic, 
unpatched version of the source, so I was able to checkpoint that, do 
the CVS update, and then compare changes, which made the problem 
obvious.

Always, always, keep backups when hacking without a net. Or with a 
net. Nets fail, too. (grin)

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

You seem a decent fellow. I hate to die.


From bwarsaw@beopen.com  Wed Oct  4 06:59:09 2000
From: bwarsaw@beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 01:59:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] broken CVS!
References: <p04330122b60007b33216@[17.216.27.250]>
 <14810.23193.949608.60704@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p04330124b6000afcf83d@[17.216.27.250]>
Message-ID: <14810.50989.717090.300805@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    CVR> Yes -- it was an interim patch causing havoc.

    CVR> gee, I think I'm learning python -- the hard way!

You'll never look back! :)


From bwarsaw@beopen.com  Wed Oct  4 07:03:04 2000
From: bwarsaw@beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 02:03:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] broken CVS!
References: <200010032219.PAA14252@utopia.west.sun.com>
 <p04330125b6000bf432da@[17.216.27.250]>
Message-ID: <14810.51224.937111.279297@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    CVR> Always, always, keep backups when hacking without a net. Or
    CVR> with a net. Nets fail, too. (grin)

Heh.  I almost wasn't going to mention it, but I did a stupid thing
yesterday.  I accidently deleted my local working directory.  :(  Now,
I don't think I lost much because of course, there's a baseline in
CVS.  Fortunately the files I had changed but not yet checked in were
still in my XEmacs buffers, so I went to each and saved them out just
to be sure.  Like a big dummy, I didn't have the directories backed
up, so the one thing I lost is my extensive bounce collection, which I
use as a regression test. :(

Oh well.  Now if I could just get my zip drive working under Linux,
I'd be set.

-Barry


From thomas@xs4all.net  Wed Oct  4 07:33:31 2000
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:33:31 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] broken CVS!
In-Reply-To: <200010032219.PAA14252@utopia.west.sun.com>; from Dan.Mick@West.Sun.COM on Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 03:20:16PM -0700
References: <200010032219.PAA14252@utopia.west.sun.com>
Message-ID: <20001004083331.F12812@xs4all.nl>

On Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 03:20:16PM -0700, Dan Mick wrote:

> >     CVR> "/home/mailman/Mailman/Mailbox.py", line 43 <<<<<<<

> Yeah, I hate that CVS is so silent about that.  I've taken to
> doing "find . -type f | xargs grep '<<<<<'" every time I do
> "cvs update" (in a script).  The stuff it leaves behind is *clearly*
> not usable, so I think there should be a big huge warning when it
> happens, and even an "invoke $EDITOR on the manual-merge-needy".
> But that's me.

It is pretty loud about it, actually. My cvs client shows 3 or 4 lines for
each failed merge ;) What I usually do, is 'cvs update' twice, so the 'C'
stands out more the second time. Alternatively, you can look for .#-files,
which CVS creates for conflicts.

-- 
Thomas Wouters <thomas@xs4all.net>

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From Ricardo Kustner <ricardo@rixhq.nu>  Thu Oct  5 09:13:58 2000
From: Ricardo Kustner <ricardo@rixhq.nu> (Ricardo Kustner)
Date: 05 Oct 2000 08:13:58 CEST
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] 2.0b6 & approval page forward function
Message-ID: <200010050608.IAA07313@smtp3.xs4all.nl>

Hi,

I noticed some odd behaviour of the forward function on the held-for-approval
page. It used to work in earlier betas, but it doesn't seem to work the same in
2.0b6.
When I approve a message and use the forward option, the message gets send only
once. There's no Subject prefix in the message I receive, so I _think_ it
doesn't get delivered to the rest of the list (which is probably true cause the
entry in logs/smtp talks about 1 recips). But the msg['Send-To'] header is
nowhere to be found in the message. 
Unfortunately, it looks like the message doesn't get delivered to the list,
even though i "approved" it too... but I have to test that some more to me 100%
positive it doesn't get delivered.
I'll look into it some more tonight, and if I have more details I'll submit a
bugreport on sourceforge... 

Ricardo.l

-- 
http://rixhq.nu

"You think that's air you're breathing?" -- Morpheus



From mailman-users@python.org, marc_news@valinux.com  Thu Oct  5 18:19:13 2000
From: mailman-users@python.org, marc_news@valinux.com (Marc MERLIN)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 10:19:13 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Using mailman with the secure-linux kernel patch
Message-ID: <20001005101913.M14681@marc.merlins.org>

[mailman-developers@python.org Cced in case they want to add my shell script to
the tree, but followup set to mailman-users@python.org]

I wanted to have mailman run on my servers that have the secure-linux kernel
patch. I ended up  writing a small shell script that  changed permissions so
that  scripts ran  as UID  mailman (by  making sure  that scripts  that lock
config.db do so with UID mailman).
I later realized that python doesn't  seem to have a suidpython wrapper like
perl does, so I  scrapped the shell script and attempted to  put a few lines
of python together to modify some scripts in mailman/bin so that they change
their uid  to mailman  if root  runs them  or complain  that they  can't run
unless their uid is mailman.

Please let  me know if  I forgot  to chmod or  modify other files  that lock
config.db:
binfilestopatch= ( 'add_members', 'check_db', 'clone_member', 'config_list',
'move_list', 'newlist', 'remove_members', 'rmlist', 'sync_members',
'update', 'withlist' )

It'd  be  nice  if  that  script  were  included  as  unsupported  with  the
mailman tree  so that people  who really want  to have the  protections from
secure-linux, can still run mailman.
If someone needs to make minor modifications to the script before including
it, I'm cool with that.

Thanks,
Marc

~mailman/bin/fix_perms.securelinux
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
#! /usr/bin/env python
#
# Copyright (C) 1998,1999,2000 by the Free Software Foundation, Inc.
#
# This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
# modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
# as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2
# of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
# 
# This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
# but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
# MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
# GNU General Public License for more details.
# 
# You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
# along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software 
# Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA.

"""If you use  Solar Designer's secure-linux patch, it prevents  a process from
linking (hard link) to a file it  doesn't own. As a result mailman has to be
changed so that the whole tree is owned by mailman, and the CGIs and some of
the programs in the  bin tree (the ones that lock  config.db files) are SUID
mailman.
The idea  is that config.db files  have to be  owned by the mailman  UID and
only touched by programs that are UID mailman.
 
If you  have to  run check_perms -f,  make sure to  also run  %(PROGRAM) -f,
which applies the necessary permission fixes
 
As a  result, to  prevent anyone from  running priviledged  mailman commands
(since the  scripts are suid), binary  commands that are changed  to be SUID
are also unreadable and unrunable by people who aren't in the mailman group.
This shouldn't affect  much since most of those commands  would fail work if
you weren't part of the mailman group anyway.

Marc <marcsoft@merlins.org>/<marc_bts@valinux.com> 2000/10/04
"""

import sys
import os
import paths
import re

# Those are the programs that we patch so that they insist being run under the
# mailman uid or as root.
binfilestopatch= ( 'add_members', 'check_db', 'clone_member', 'config_list', 'move_list', 'newlist', 'remove_members', 'rmlist', 'sync_members', 'update', 'withlist' )

def main():
    binpath=paths.prefix+'/bin/'
    droplib=binpath+'CheckFixUid.py'

    if len(argv)<2 or argv[1] != "-f":
	print __doc__
	sys.exit(1)

    if not os.path.exists(droplib):
	print "Creating "+droplib
	fp=open(droplib, 'w', 0644)
	fp.write("""import sys
import pwd
import os

class CheckFixUid:
    mailmanuid=pwd.getpwnam("mailman")[2]
    if os.geteuid() == 0:
	os.setuid(mailmanuid)
    if os.geteuid() != mailmanuid:
	print "You need to run this script as root or mailman because it was configured to run\non a linux system with the secure-linux patch which restricts hard links"
	sys.exit()
""")
	fp.close
    else:
	print "Skipping creation of "+droplib


    print "Making cgis setuid mailman"
    os.system('chmod 6755 '+paths.prefix+'/cgi-bin/*')

    print "Making mail wrapper setuid mailman"
    os.system('chmod 6755 '+paths.prefix+'/mail/wrapper')

    print "Ensuring that all config.db fiels are owned by Mailman"
    os.system('chown mailman.mailman '+paths.prefix+'/lists/*/config.db*')

    print "Patching mailman scripts to change the uid to mailman"

    for script in binfilestopatch:
	filefd=open(script, "r")
	file=filefd.readlines()
	filefd.close()

	patched=0
	try:
	    file.index("import CheckFixUid\n")
	    print "Not patching "+script+", already patched"
	except ValueError:
	    file.insert(file.index("import paths\n")+1, "import CheckFixUid\n")
	    for i in range(len(file)-1, 0, -1):
		object=re.compile("^([	 ]*)main\(").search(file[i])
		if object:
		    print "Patching "+script
		    file.insert(i, object.group(1)+"CheckFixUid.CheckFixUid()\n")
		    patched=1
		    break

	    if patched==0:
		print "Warning, file "+script+" couldn't be patched.\nIf you use it, mailman may not function properly"
	    else:
		filefd=open(script, "w")
		filefd.writelines(file)
	    
main(sys.argv)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Microsoft is to software what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
 
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ (friendly to non IE browsers)
Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key and other contact information


From bwarsaw@beopen.com  Thu Oct  5 20:12:21 2000
From: bwarsaw@beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 15:12:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] another weird mailman problem.
References: <p0433010cb5f6b30e6482@[17.216.27.250]>
Message-ID: <14812.53909.397213.773618@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    CVR> This just showed up in my logs...

---
Sep 26 13:07:01 2000 (6974) Bhawks-l: lvymay@worldnet.fr - exceeded limits
Sep 26 13:07:01 2000 (6974) Bhawks-l: disabled lvymay@worldnet.fr
Sep 26 13:07:01 2000 (6974) Bouncer exception: body
Sep 26 13:07:01 2000 (6974) Traceback (innermost last):
   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/BouncerAPI.py", line 65, in ScanMessages
     mlist.RegisterBounce(addr, msg)
   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Bouncer.py", line 141, in RegisterBounce
     self.HandleBouncingAddress(addr, msg)
   File "/home/mailman/Mailman/Bouncer.py", line 236, in HandleBouncingAddress
     text = text + \
AttributeError: body

----

    CVR> I don't remember seeing this one before.

I just fixed that. :/

-Barry


From bwarsaw@beopen.com  Thu Oct  5 20:44:57 2000
From: bwarsaw@beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 15:44:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] List-* header suggestion
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20000929103025.02fd8940@vtserf.cc.vt.edu>
 <p04330103b5fa619f6859@[209.239.169.197]>
Message-ID: <14812.55865.21561.78516@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    CVR> they aren't on my site, ron -- it' spossible you have an MTA
    CVR> that *is* folding them for you. Does it do laundry, too?

    CVR> Folding them would be a good idea, IMHO.

Me too.  Here's the patch.

-Barry

-------------------- snip snip --------------------
Index: CookHeaders.py
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/mailman/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py,v
retrieving revision 1.15
diff -u -r1.15 CookHeaders.py
--- CookHeaders.py	2000/09/25 13:40:19	1.15
+++ CookHeaders.py	2000/10/05 19:42:51
@@ -17,6 +17,7 @@
 """Cook a message's Subject header.
 """
 
+import string
 import re
 import urlparse
 from Mailman import mm_cfg
@@ -115,6 +116,11 @@
     # one copy of each, and we want to be sure it's ours.
     for h, v in headers.items():
         del msg[h]
+        # Wrap these lines if they are too long.  78 character width probably
+        # shouldn't be hardcoded.  The adding of 2 is for the colon-space
+        # separator.
+        if len(h) + 2 + len(v) > 78:
+            v = string.join(string.split(v, ', '), ',\n\t')
         msg[h] = v
     #
     # Always delete List-Archive header, but only add it back if the list is


From bwarsaw@beopen.com  Thu Oct  5 21:05:05 2000
From: bwarsaw@beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:05:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "download the full raw archive"
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010022206280.5021-100000@alb-net.com>
Message-ID: <14812.57073.817910.35800@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "MC" == Mentor Cana <mentor@alb-net.com> writes:

    MC> Doesn't this link run contrary to the "obscure_addresses"
    MC> Option?

Yup, but so does the old downloadable archive link, so I don't think
this change /increases/ the spam harvesting potential.

    MC> Even if I have the obscure_addresses Option set to YES, the
    MC> e-mail addresses of public archives can be still harvested by
    MC> various robots out there.

I'm not sure what to do about it.  The links are useful and since the
files are intended to be MUA-ready, munging the addresses is
inconvenient.  I guess if the list admin is really worried about
harvesting, she'll make the archives private and force access through
the authentication page.

Not a great position to take, I admit.

-Barry


From bwarsaw@beopen.com  Thu Oct  5 21:05:05 2000
From: bwarsaw@beopen.com (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:05:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re: [Mailman-Developers] "download the full raw archive"
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010022206280.5021-100000@alb-net.com>
Message-ID: <14812.57073.817910.35800@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "MC" == Mentor Cana <mentor@alb-net.com> writes:

    MC> Doesn't this link run contrary to the "obscure_addresses"
    MC> Option?

Yup, but so does the old downloadable archive link, so I don't think
this change /increases/ the spam harvesting potential.

    MC> Even if I have the obscure_addresses Option set to YES, the
    MC> e-mail addresses of public archives can be still harvested by
    MC> various robots out there.

I'm not sure what to do about it.  The links are useful and since the
files are intended to be MUA-ready, munging the addresses is
inconvenient.  I guess if the list admin is really worried about
harvesting, she'll make the archives private and force access through
the authentication page.

Not a great position to take, I admit.

-Barry

------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users maillist  -  Mailman-Users@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users



From dgc@uchicago.edu  Thu Oct  5 21:14:32 2000
From: dgc@uchicago.edu (David Champion)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 15:14:32 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: "download the full raw archive"
In-Reply-To: <14812.57073.817910.35800@anthem.concentric.net>; from bwarsaw@beopen.com on Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 04:05:05PM -0400
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010022206280.5021-100000@alb-net.com> <14812.57073.817910.35800@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <20001005151432.S18564@smack.uchicago.edu>

On 2000.10.05, in <14812.57073.817910.35800@anthem.concentric.net>,
	"Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw@beopen.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure what to do about it.  The links are useful and since the
> files are intended to be MUA-ready, munging the addresses is
> inconvenient.  I guess if the list admin is really worried about
> harvesting, she'll make the archives private and force access through
> the authentication page.
> 
> Not a great position to take, I admit.

I think it's a fine position to take, as long as there's a way for the
concerned administrator to block access.  I'm disappointed when I can't
obtain virginal mbox archives of a list, and authenticating access is a
perfectly good solution to the harvester problem.

Maybe, as a compromise, the text and mbox links should be authenticated
even when the archives are private?                                    

-- 
 -D.	dgc@uchicago.edu	NSIT	University of Chicago


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Thu Oct  5 21:21:30 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 13:21:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] "download the full raw archive"
In-Reply-To: <14812.57073.817910.35800@anthem.concentric.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010022206280.5021-100000@alb-net.com>
 <14812.57073.817910.35800@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b6029235c5f6@[17.216.27.227]>


>Yup, but so does the old downloadable archive link, so I don't think
>this change /increases/ the spam harvesting potential.
>
>     MC> Even if I have the obscure_addresses Option set to YES, the
>     MC> e-mail addresses of public archives can be still harvested by
>     MC> various robots out there.
>
>I'm not sure what to do about it.


I'm putting all of my archives, search engine, etc, behind a security 
realm. They'll have to know where to find the acct/password, and type 
it in.

That shuts out all of the automated harvesters. If someone wants to 
manually come in try to harvest, you need to depend on being able to 
recognize it happening and deal with it on a case by case basis, but 
then, if you have an individual harvesting, they can always quietly 
subscribe to the lists and harvest the e-mail stream you deliver to 
them, -- and you'll never know it's happening.

so I don't worry about the manual harvester. First, it rarely 
happens. Second, if they have a clue you'll never catch them. Third, 
few have a clue and they're easy to find. And fourth, that kind of 
person is very rare. I'm worried about (a) keeping email addresses 
out of the global search engines where most harvesting happens, and 
(b) closing out the automated spider harvesters that do 99% of the 
rest of the harvesting.

and if you think about it, you can't find, much less stop, a 
harvester that subscribes to lists and sucks e-mail off the list 
server, so that's the most secure you can make a mail list. It makes 
no sense to try to make your archives MORE secure than you can make 
the list itself. So I focus on dealing wtih indiviual harvesters by 
alarms on suspicious activity in the archives, and let passwords lock 
out the bots, and that, to me, is about as good as you can expect, 
because it's as secure as your list itself is.

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

You seem a decent fellow. I hate to die.


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Thu Oct  5 21:21:30 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 13:21:30 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re: [Mailman-Developers] "download the full raw archive"
In-Reply-To: <14812.57073.817910.35800@anthem.concentric.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010022206280.5021-100000@alb-net.com>
 <14812.57073.817910.35800@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b6029235c5f6@[17.216.27.227]>


>Yup, but so does the old downloadable archive link, so I don't think
>this change /increases/ the spam harvesting potential.
>
>     MC> Even if I have the obscure_addresses Option set to YES, the
>     MC> e-mail addresses of public archives can be still harvested by
>     MC> various robots out there.
>
>I'm not sure what to do about it.


I'm putting all of my archives, search engine, etc, behind a security 
realm. They'll have to know where to find the acct/password, and type 
it in.

That shuts out all of the automated harvesters. If someone wants to 
manually come in try to harvest, you need to depend on being able to 
recognize it happening and deal with it on a case by case basis, but 
then, if you have an individual harvesting, they can always quietly 
subscribe to the lists and harvest the e-mail stream you deliver to 
them, -- and you'll never know it's happening.

so I don't worry about the manual harvester. First, it rarely 
happens. Second, if they have a clue you'll never catch them. Third, 
few have a clue and they're easy to find. And fourth, that kind of 
person is very rare. I'm worried about (a) keeping email addresses 
out of the global search engines where most harvesting happens, and 
(b) closing out the automated spider harvesters that do 99% of the 
rest of the harvesting.

and if you think about it, you can't find, much less stop, a 
harvester that subscribes to lists and sucks e-mail off the list 
server, so that's the most secure you can make a mail list. It makes 
no sense to try to make your archives MORE secure than you can make 
the list itself. So I focus on dealing wtih indiviual harvesters by 
alarms on suspicious activity in the archives, and let passwords lock 
out the bots, and that, to me, is about as good as you can expect, 
because it's as secure as your list itself is.

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

You seem a decent fellow. I hate to die.

------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users maillist  -  Mailman-Users@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users



From R.Barrett@ftel.co.uk  Fri Oct  6 15:20:03 2000
From: R.Barrett@ftel.co.uk (Richard Barrett)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 15:20:03 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Virtual Host handling in listinfo.py
Message-ID: <v04220800b6038aae1a1b@[172.16.3.104]>

In what follows I am referring to code in the file 
Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py in the 2.0beta6 release of Mailman. I'm 
working with Apache/1.3.12 (Unix) which may influence your judgement 
about my arguments.

Sorry if what follows is too long but I found it useful to fully 
analyse my own thinking on the topic. Red face for me if the issue is 
well known to you all.

The code I'm concerned with is in the function 
FormatListinfoOverview. It deals with the situation when 
mm_cfg.VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW is true and computation is done to 
detemine which advertised mail lists should be returned when the URI 
/mailman/listinfo/ is being responded to. The relevant bits of the 
code are as follows:

     def FormatListinfoOverview(error=None):
         ...
         <snip>
         ...
         http_host = os.environ.get('HTTP_HOST', os.environ.get('SERVER_NAME'))
         port = os.environ.get('SERVER_PORT')
         # strip off the port if there is one
         if port and http_host[-len(port)-1:] == ':'+port:
             http_host = http_host[:-len(port)-1]
         if mm_cfg.VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW and http_host:
             host_name = http_host
         else:
             host_name = mm_cfg.DEFAULT_HOST_NAME
         ...
         <snip>
         ...
         for n in names:
             if mlist.advertised:
                 if mm_cfg.VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW and \
                         http_host and \
                         string.find(http_host, mlist.web_page_url) == -1 and \
                         string.find(mlist.web_page_url, http_host) == -1:
                     # List is for different identity of this host - skip it.
                     continue

                 else:
                     advertised.append(mlist)
         ...
         <snip>


There is a flaw in this code in the way that it strips the port 
number from the http_host variable but I'll come on to that below.

As best I can judge the purpose of considering the value of the 
environment variable HTTP_HOST (if available) instead of just using 
the SERVER_NAME value is to try and deduce a virtual host's server 
name in cirumstances when the web server has not. For instance:

1. Typically VirtualHost directives in httpd.conf will have been 
defined using FQDN, for example:

     NameVirtualHost 192.168.1.1
     <VirtualHost bert.my.co.uk>
         ServerName bert.my.co.uk
     </VirutalHost>
     <VirtualHost fred.my.co.uk>
         ServerName fred.my.co.uk
     </VirutalHost>

2. The virtual hosts will have associated ServerName directives whose 
values are used to set SERVER_NAME.

3. If a user on the local network uses a URL which does not fully 
quality the servers domain name, e.g. http://fred/mailman/listinfo/, 
then the VirtualHost directive is not correlated by the web server 
and the SERVER_NAME will not be set to fred.my.co.uk but to some 
other value depending on type and order of the VirtualHost directives 
in httpd.conf, bert.my.co.uk in this example.

4. In these circumstances, the cunning code above will ignore the 
SERVER_NAME value and match the fred value in HTTP_HOST.

I do not think this trick in the FormatListinfoOverview function is 
the right way to overcome this problem. If you want to match both 
partial and fully qualified domain names to a virtual host then two 
VirtualHost directives should be used in httpd.conf, for example:

     NameVirtualHost 192.168.1.1
     <VirtualHost bert.my.co.uk>
         ServerName bert.my.co.uk
     </VirutalHost>
     <VirtualHost fred.my.co.uk>
         ServerName fred.my.co.uk
     </VirutalHost>
     <VirtualHost fred>
         ServerName fred.my.co.uk
     </VirutalHost>

By doing this both web server and listinfo.py reach the same 
conclusion by the same route. I am saying that, in principle, the 
problem, which is generic to the way the web server is operating, 
should be solved by setting up the correct virtual host definitions 
in httpd.conf not by second guessing the virtual host setup in 
listinfo.py. listinfo.py should only consider the value of 
SERVER_NAME and not even look at HTTP_HOST. My proposed changes to 
the FormatListinfoOverview function are:

cut here-vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
diff -r -c2 mailman-2.0beta6.stock/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py 
mailman-2.0beta6.listinfo1/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py
*** mailman-2.0beta6.stock/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py	Wed Aug  2 
00:10:41 2000
--- mailman-2.0beta6.listinfo1/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py	Fri Oct  6 
14:22:44 2000
***************
*** 59,73 ****
       "Present a general welcome and itemize the (public) lists for this host."

!     # XXX We need a portable way to determine the host by which we are being
!     #     visited!  An absolute URL would do...
!     http_host = os.environ.get('HTTP_HOST', os.environ.get('SERVER_NAME'))
!     port = os.environ.get('SERVER_PORT')
!     # strip off the port if there is one
!     if port and http_host[-len(port)-1:] == ':'+port:
!         http_host = http_host[:-len(port)-1]
!     if mm_cfg.VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW and http_host:
! 	host_name = http_host
!     else:
! 	host_name = mm_cfg.DEFAULT_HOST_NAME

       doc = Document()
--- 59,63 ----
       "Present a general welcome and itemize the (public) lists for this host."

!     http_host = host_name = os.environ.get('SERVER_NAME')

       doc = Document()
cut here-^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Even if you do not agree with my first conclusion, please read on.]

Which brings me on to the problem that started me looking at this 
whole issue; what happens when SSH's port forwarding is used to make 
the browser/web connection? For example:

1. I'm dialling in to my favorite ISP from home using my laptop. In 
order to then connect to our internal-access-only Mailman web server 
through our corporate firewall, I have to use SSH's port forwarding.

2. I set up port forwarding so that any connection to local port 8081 
on my laptop is forwarded to fred.my.co.uk:80 by the firewall machine.

3. I give my browser the URL http://localhost:8081/mailman/listinfo/.

4. The HTTP request is forwarded satisfactorily to fred.my.co.uk:80 
with the URI being /mailman/listinfo/.

5. Because mm_cfg.VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW is true, listinfo.py proceeds 
to tell me there are no advertised mail lists on host localhost:8081. 
Well, I knew that.

This is because of two flaws in the FormatListinfoOverview function:

1. In trying to remove the port number from the end of the string 
value of HTTP_HOST, the code assumes that the length of the port 
number is equal to the length of the SERVER_PORT environment 
variable's value. In the case of my example this is assumption is 
wrong: the port number at the end of HTTP_HOST is 4 characters 
('8081') and the SERVER_PORT is 2 characters long ('80').

2. Even with this first flaw corrected, the code still fails to 
recognise the circumstances because it is analysing HTTP_HOST and 
extracting the value 'localhost'. But the ip number of this value 
does not even match the SERVER_ADDR environment variable's value, 
which is a dead giveaway.

This problem disappears if virtual host definition in httpd.conf is 
used instead of trickery involving HTTP_HOST in listinfo.py.

So also does a similar problem which occurs if the explicit ip number 
of the server is used in the URL given to the browser, instead of the 
server's domain name, assuming no ip-based virtual host has been 
defined in httpd.conf to map the ip number to an acceptable 
ServerName.

OK, so you do not agree with my contention that listinfo.py should 
not consider HTTP_HOST because it might break a bunch of existing 
Mailman installations. In that case, the following changes to the 
FormatListinfoOverview function avoid my problems. The position here 
is that if:

either - The ip number of the HTTP_HOST doesn't match the SERVER_ADDR.

or - The URL contains the server's ip number rather than its name.

then the code behaves as if the browser didn't supply an HTTP Host header:

cut here-vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
diff -r -c2 mailman-2.0beta6.stock/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py 
mailman-2.0beta6.listinfo2/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py
*** mailman-2.0beta6.stock/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py	Wed Aug  2 
00:10:41 2000
--- mailman-2.0beta6.listinfo2/Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py	Fri Oct  6 
15:06:31 2000
***************
*** 22,25 ****
--- 22,26 ----
   import os
   import string
+ import socket

   from Mailman import mm_cfg
***************
*** 62,72 ****
       #     visited!  An absolute URL would do...
       http_host = os.environ.get('HTTP_HOST', os.environ.get('SERVER_NAME'))
-     port = os.environ.get('SERVER_PORT')
       # strip off the port if there is one
!     if port and http_host[-len(port)-1:] == ':'+port:
!         http_host = http_host[:-len(port)-1]
!     if mm_cfg.VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW and http_host:
   	host_name = http_host
       else:
   	host_name = mm_cfg.DEFAULT_HOST_NAME

--- 63,77 ----
       #     visited!  An absolute URL would do...
       http_host = os.environ.get('HTTP_HOST', os.environ.get('SERVER_NAME'))
       # strip off the port if there is one
!     if http_host:
!         http_host = string.split(http_host, ':')[0]
!     host_ip = socket.gethostbyname(http_host)
!     server_ip = os.environ.get('SERVER_ADDR')
!     if mm_cfg.VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW and http_host and \
!             host_ip == server_ip and \
!             host_ip != http_host:
   	host_name = http_host
       else:
+ 	http_host = None
   	host_name = mm_cfg.DEFAULT_HOST_NAME
cut here-^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I have yet to post either of these above patches to sourceforge. I 
would appreciate a sanity check on my thinking and any rebuttal of my 
arguments or constructive comments. RSVP
------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Barrett, PostPoint 30,         e-mail:r.barrett@ftel.co.uk
Fujitsu Telecommunications Europe Ltd,      tel: (44) 121 717 6337
Solihull Parkway, Birmingham Business Park, B37 7YU, England
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759
------------------------------------------------------------------


From mentor@alb-net.com  Tue Oct  3 03:10:10 2000
From: mentor@alb-net.com (Mentor Cana)
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 22:10:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] "download the full raw archive"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010022206280.5021-100000@alb-net.com>

Doesn't this link run contrary to the "obscure_addresses" Option?

Even if I have the obscure_addresses Option set to YES, the e-mail
addresses of public archives can be still harvested by various robots out
there.

later,
Mentor


------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users maillist  -  Mailman-Users@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users



From Ricardo Kustner <ricardo@rixhq.nu>  Sat Oct  7 12:23:33 2000
From: Ricardo Kustner <ricardo@rixhq.nu> (Ricardo Kustner)
Date: 07 Oct 2000 11:23:33 CEST
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] 2.0b6 & approval page forward function
In-Reply-To: <200010050608.IAA07313@smtp3.xs4all.nl>
References: <200010050608.IAA07313@smtp3.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <200010070917.LAA01220@smtp3.xs4all.nl>

>  Unfortunately, it looks like the message doesn't get delivered to the list,
>  even though i "approved" it too... but I have to test that some more to me 100%
>  positive it doesn't get delivered.
>  I'll look into it some more tonight, and if I have more details I'll submit a
>  bugreport on sourceforge... 

FYI... i just submitted this as bugreport #116311 on sourceforge...

Ricardo.
-- 
http://rixhq.nu

"You think that's air you're breathing?" -- Morpheus



From jh@rsi.pl  Sun Oct  8 12:14:58 2000
From: jh@rsi.pl (Jerzy Hodor)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 13:14:58 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug in CookHeaders.py
Message-ID: <01b901c03118$ff3df300$d27bcdc3@pc.rsi.pl>

   Hello,

I have just discovered a bug in Mailman 2.0beta6. When you set up a list to
post replies to list, and user receives confirmation note about subsciption,
the CookHandlers module trashes content of  'Reply-To' field. Accordingly to
comments in this code there is wrong written condition in it.You should
change it from:
    if not fasttrack or msg.get('reply-to'):
to:
    if not fasttrack or not msg.get('reply-to'):
or even to cleaner form:
    if not (fasttrack and msg.get('reply-to')):

Here is diff -uNr of CookHeaders.py.orig CookHeaders.py

<---------cut here
--- CookHeaders.py.orig Sun Oct  8 12:53:40 2000
+++ CookHeaders.py      Sun Oct  8 12:54:30 2000
@@ -79,7 +79,7 @@
     # or if there is already a reply-to set.  If the user has set
     # one we assume they have a good reason for it, and we don't
     # second guess them.
-    if not fasttrack or msg.get('reply-to'):
+    if not fasttrack or not msg.get('reply-to'):
         # Set Reply-To: header to point back to this list
         if mlist.reply_goes_to_list == 1:
             msg['Reply-To'] = mlist.GetListEmail()
<---------cut here

Hope this helps developing your great program!
Sincerely yours,

--
Jerzy Hodor

PS. Yes, I have posted this bug and patch on sourceforge :-)



From jam@jamux.com  Mon Oct  9 13:47:28 2000
From: jam@jamux.com (John A. Martin)
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 08:47:28 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] X-Mailman-Version: header field
Message-ID: <20001009124728.AC4D548031@athene.jamux.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Will there be an option or an easy edit to not use the
"X-Mailman-Version:" header field?

It might be nice to have a ./configure option something like
"--paranoid-advertiser" for those whose policy is to not advertise the
specific version of daemons and the like.  --paranoid-advertiser would
not use the X-Mailman-Version header field , would not have the
version number in the logo on the web pages, and would not otherwise
advertise the version number.

Presumably anybody smart enough to be paranoid would also be
thoughtful enough to mention the version where appropriate when
seeking help and so forth.  :-)

	jam

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.3 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: OpenPGP encrypted mail preferred.  See <http://www.gnupg.org/>

iEYEARECAAYFAjnhvcoACgkQUEvv1b/iXy9ukACfUfCP2nsoxa5UEtL7YSndpFld
gV8AnjFJzJUacNqeInEONJfyjDmVo0Wm
=mJty
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From jafo@tummy.com  Mon Oct  9 20:23:24 2000
From: jafo@tummy.com (Sean Reifschneider)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 13:23:24 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] QMail patches submitted to sourceforge
Message-ID: <20001009132324.H1076@tummy.com>

Since SourceForge doesn't allow any lengthy descriptions of patches, let
me describe them here.

Patch ID 101660: Fixing some information in the README.QMAIL file.

Patch ID 101845: Changed calling line in qmail-to-mailman.py program
to include "preline" call.  Added an entry in FAQ on why archiving
doesn't work for QMail.

Patch ID 101846: Added a default entry "MTA_TYPE", which can be used
to trigger MTA-specific actions in other code.  This is a port forward
of the patch I submitted last year, which I believe was dropped.  
Defaults.py.in auto-detects QMail and sets MTA_TYPE accordingly.  Changes
"newlist" to output QMail specific text.

Patch ID 101847: A contrib program which does log rotation and mails any
messages in "errors" or "smtp-failures" to mailman owner.  This is
another patch I submitted last year which I believe was dropped.

Enjoy,
Sean
-- 
 Hell hath no fury, like a file-system scorned.  -- Sean Reifschneider, 1998
Sean Reifschneider, Inimitably Superfluous <jafo@tummy.com>
tummy.com - Linux Consulting since 1995. Qmail, KRUD, Firewalls, Python


From thomas@xs4all.net  Mon Oct  9 21:19:59 2000
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:19:59 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] QMail patches submitted to sourceforge
In-Reply-To: <20001009132324.H1076@tummy.com>; from jafo@tummy.com on Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:23:24PM -0600
References: <20001009132324.H1076@tummy.com>
Message-ID: <20001009221959.O12812@xs4all.nl>

On Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:23:24PM -0600, Sean Reifschneider wrote:
> Since SourceForge doesn't allow any lengthy descriptions of patches, let
> me describe them here.

Actually, it does... Just add a comment to them, after submitting them.
(Submit them, view them, add text in the comment window, submit.)

-- 
Thomas Wouters <thomas@xs4all.net>

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From minsk_mobile@mail.ru  Tue Oct 10 19:56:34 2000
From: minsk_mobile@mail.ru (Kleniksky Artiom)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:56:34 +0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] software
Message-ID: <009a01c032eb$d04a2f80$3bd09ec2@ef>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0097_01C0330D.569B8CC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="koi8-r"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear sirs,=20

  My name is Artiom Kleniksky, i am private  businessman  and  work in =
sphere of  telecommunications in Belarus. Presently  I  revise the =
direction of its activity and begin to work of software development!

  On given  moment  I  have  the big interest  in reception of order on =
software production, any level to difficulties. At  reception  of order =
for 5 days I am ready to give answer about possibility of its =
realization.

  I  am ready to guarantee the quality and periods of performances =
order. The Payment expect the transfer of cheque on my name on  fact of =
performance of order. For first time a downpayment for performance work =
is not required.

  I  certain  that  we with  can  find  the general interests and shall =
cooperation to future!=20

  I wait any offers from you!

  My e-mail:minsk_mobile@mail.ru=20
  GSM: +375-296-500-950=20
=20
  With best regards
  Artiom Kleniksky=20


------=_NextPart_000_0097_01C0330D.569B8CC0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="koi8-r"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dkoi8-r" http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>Dear sirs,=20
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>&nbsp; My name is =
Artiom=20
Kleniksky, i am private&nbsp; businessman&nbsp; and&nbsp; work in sphere =

of&nbsp; telecommunications in Belarus. Presently&nbsp; I&nbsp; revise =
the=20
direction of its activity and begin to work of software=20
development!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>&nbsp; On =
given&nbsp; moment&nbsp;=20
I&nbsp; have&nbsp; the big interest&nbsp; in reception of order on =
software=20
production, any level to difficulties. At&nbsp; reception&nbsp; of order =
for 5=20
days I am ready to give answer about possibility of its=20
realization.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>&nbsp; I&nbsp; am =
ready to=20
guarantee the quality and periods of performances order. The Payment =
expect the=20
transfer of cheque on my name on&nbsp; fact of performance of order. For =
first=20
time a downpayment for performance work is not required.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>&nbsp; I&nbsp; =
certain&nbsp;=20
that&nbsp; we with&nbsp; can&nbsp; find&nbsp; the general interests and =
shall=20
cooperation to future! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>&nbsp; I wait any =
offers from=20
you!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>&nbsp; My <A=20
href=3D"mailto:e-mail:minsk_mobile@mail.ru">e-mail:minsk_mobile@mail.ru</=
A>=20
<BR>&nbsp; GSM: +375-296-500-950 <BR>&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp; With best=20
regards<BR>&nbsp; Artiom Kleniksky=20
<BR></FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0097_01C0330D.569B8CC0--



From steffen@asta.uni-wuppertal.de  Wed Oct 11 00:53:34 2000
From: steffen@asta.uni-wuppertal.de (Steffen Bardolatzi)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 01:53:34 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman-Bug with faked spam headers and some suggestions new features
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010110059160.828-100000@steffensdomaine.dyndns.org>

This looks like a nasty bug ...


We are running Mailman for some time now - one of the liste is a
"half-open" one with these settings:

- everyone can post
- bccs to the list are not permitted (to avoid spams, works fine)
- some alias-names for some users who regulary post to a different
adress but bcc to our's


Recently a spam message with a visible to-entry in the mail header
arrived here: "To: <>" in the fields displayed by mail clients.

This caused to log Mailman Beta 6 the following files into the error-
logfile:

Oct 08 23:53:01 2000 (25258) Delivery exception: read-only character 
buffer, None
Oct 08 23:53:01 2000 (25258) Traceback (innermost last):
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/HandlerAPI.py", line 82, in
do_pipeline
    func(mlist, msg, msgdata)
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py", line 173, in process
    if mlist.require_explicit_destination and \
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 1208, in HasExplicitDest
    addr = string.lower(addr)
TypeError: read-only character buffer, None


... these lines were repeated each *2* minutes for more than 10 hours
(until I deleted the db-, and msg-file in the qfiles directory).
The original msg-file time was exactly the one of the first log in the
log file. In this *first* log I could read something like "implicit
header..." followed by the endlessly repeated actual error-log above.


-------------------------------


In addition to this here are some more minior bugs:

- In case some e-mails are sent with qp-7bit-code the archiver does
*not* covert them back into the acutal 8 bit characters - which makes it
more diffucult to read the postings in the archive unless you are get
used to qp-coding. As for 8 bit characters it works fine.
Some of the affected mail clients are Pegasus und Outlook
Express (according to some header analyses on an unregular bases).
E-Mails are send just fine with no problems.

- In case some people send M$-attachments the archive does not
interpret this mime code and displays if just as if it was plain text.
A nice *new* feature was if there was displayed a link for
non-text-files like: download this file.

- It would be fine if the archive would *not* display both the text
and html code (in source code) if some people send a message with html
*and* txt - the default might be *only* to render the html part
readable (as e.g. done my pine).
In general it would be fine if the archive was mime-aware ... there are
too many users out there who have not yet learnt to send e-mails in
plain text.

- In case there are packet losses and timeouts during processing some
admin-(mail)-requests Mailman does recognize the changes but does
endlessly attempt to load the updated admin-requests site.


-------------------------------------------


- sugestion for a new feature:

I was told to disable the unsubscribe-funktion for a special list: I
edited the list option's site *and* disabled the request e-mail adress
(else I had to filter out unsubscribe in the subject and body with
procmail or so).
So far this works fine *but* has been some work.
Therefore a switch like: "unsubscribe  yes  no" would be a good idea -
maybe on a per-list bases in the mydefauls.py-file.


Thanks in advance and thaks for such a great mailing list manager!


PS.: I hope it's ok if I send it to mailman-users and
mailman-developers and sorry about the length.
Anyway Mailman seems to get better with each Beta version.




From mogul@gelatinous.com  Wed Oct 11 18:55:21 2000
From: mogul@gelatinous.com (Bret Mogilefsky)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:55:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] snews note and nntp configuration suggestion
Message-ID: <20001011105521.A29990@gelatinous.com>

Hello.

I'm trying to set up Mailman 2.0b4 to gateway our secure newsgroups to a
mailing list per group.  The first thing I notice is that there's no
support for snews (NNTP over SSL), presumably because SSL is a whole
new can of worms.  The second thing I notice is that there's no way
way to specify the port that should be used on the news host.  The
third thing I notice is that the same news username/password are used
for all mailing lists.  Consider the following information/suggestions.

The first problem should be easy to solve using stunnel
(http://www.stunnel.org). I can set up a wrapper on the Mailman host
that forwards NNTP over SSL to the remote server.  Assuming I can
specify the port I'm using to forward, everything should work.  This
should probably be documented somewhere in case people are tempted to
complain about the lack of SSL support as I was about to.

Second problem, no port.  Well, open_newsgroup() in gate_news passes parameters to nntplib.NNTP() for the username and password; why not pass the port as well?  I set this up as NNTP_PORT in Defaults.py and overrode it in my mmcfg.py, then hacked open_newsgroup() to use it.  Simple enough, BUT...

Third problem, the same username/password are used for all gated lists.  This seems an oversight in my opinion.  Consider for example SourceForge, where there are thousands of lists associated with various projects, each under the administration of that project.  It's really not useful for the list admin to be able to specify the news host and group, but not the port, username, and password.  All of these parameters should be configurable per list.  Great, so I should add those fields to the mlist structure... 

But at this point I burst out in tears and hide my face in shame because I'm really unfamiliar with Python and I don't know anything about how the web interface is being generated and I'm afraid to do any more hacks than what I've already described without seriously mucking things up.  Can someone help?  Is it too late to get this change into 2.0?

Thanks for your patience,

Bret
mogul at playstation.sony.com


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Mon Oct 16 06:44:27 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 22:44:27 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] UI glitch in templates/listinfo.html
Message-ID: <p0433011bb610451859e0@[209.239.169.197]>

Found a UI glitch in templates/listinfo.html:

                 <tr><td>Would you like to receive list mail batched in a daily
                     digest?
                 </td><td><MM-Undigest-Radio-Button> No
                     <MM-Digest-Radio-Button>  Yes
                 </TD></tr>

which is the section that prints out digest selections.

If you turn off digests (for instance, an announce lists), you get 
the question, followed by No Yes and no buttons. Very confusing for 
the end user, and tripped me up for about ten minutes before I 
figured it out.

The best way (I guess) to handle this is to not print the message at 
all if digests are disabled for a list, but the quick and dirty hack 
would be to have those button variables return a string of N/A or 
something -- ugly, but at least the user would know it's not 
broken....

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From fil@bok.net  Tue Oct 17 08:57:00 2000
From: fil@bok.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:57:00 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] default privacy settings
Message-ID: <20001017095700.A14340@orwell.bok.net>

We live in a very privacy-reduced world, isn't it? Wouldn't it help if
GNU/Mailman was by default shipped with 

    DEFAULT_PRIVATE_ROSTER = 2

...and let administrators reverse that if they wish ?



From fil@bok.net  Tue Oct 17 09:06:08 2000
From: fil@bok.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:06:08 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] choose options that appear on the roster
Message-ID: <20001017100608.A14436@orwell.bok.net>

Would it be possible to make this list of roster options a DEFAULT by LIST
(or by SERVER) so as to simplify the admin interface ?


Mailman/Cgi/admin.py:
        for opt in ("hide", "nomail", "ack", "notmetoo", "plain"):



From forster@fmi.uni-passau.de  Tue Oct 17 09:53:32 2000
From: forster@fmi.uni-passau.de (Michael Forster)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:53:32 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mail commands help text
Message-ID: <JFEHKPKDDKIMOOHNLDIJGEDBCBAA.forster@fmi.uni-passau.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

2.0beta6: When I send a "help" to xylist-request I get a help message
containing the following:

    subscribe [password] [digest-option] [address=<address>]
        Subscribe to the mailing list.  Your password must be given to
        unsubscribe or change your options.  When you subscribe to the
- -->     list, you'll be reminded of your password periodically.
        'digest-option' may be either: 'nodigest' or 'digest' (no
        quotes!)  If you wish to subscribe an address other than the
        address you send this request from, you may specify
        "address=<email address>" (no brackets around the email
        address, no quotes!)

even if I set the "Send monthly password reminders" option to "No".

This is wrong, isn't it?

Mike

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>

iQA/AwUBOewFfceYjj0YYPBiEQLacgCfeemhWP98YzP3wuf73uquedHcpEoAnjEV
F33FsqCC7ZqjVnn4lJ93PvF3
=A+5d
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From Global786@aol.com  Tue Oct 17 23:25:16 2000
From: Global786@aol.com (Global786@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 18:25:16 EDT
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] website
Message-ID: <5e.2088f9f.271e2bcc@aol.com>

I wonder if you could help me in the following matters.


1.  can you or someone help improve my websight which I could 
edit/add/delete- items myself.  please go to my site below to know my 
business.
                  www.globalcatering.co.uk

2.  I wish to enter into e-commerce- can you or someone help me to achieve 
this.

3.  is there a way to obtain e-mailing lists to create a database on my  
computer to enable me to inform people re special offers.


thank you,

I await your reply.

best regards
altaf shaikh.


From plasma@prosa.it  Wed Oct 18 15:40:40 2000
From: plasma@prosa.it (Cristian Prevedello)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:40:40 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] mailman-cmd
Message-ID: <20001018164040.A12171@wien.prosa.it>

I've written few lines of python to manage from the command line some
aspects of mailman.

You can find these scripts at
ftp://ftp.prosa.it/pub/people/plasma/mailman-cmd-0.1.tar.gz

This is the first release. They are ugly, very very few userfriendly, but
they their work.

Suggestions and contributions are welcome.

-- 
Cristian Prevedello, System Administrator, Linuxcare Italia spa
+39.049.804.3.411 tel, +39.049.803.6.484 fax
plasma@linuxcare.it, http://www.linuxcare.com/
Linuxcare. Support for the revolution.


From mtran@bmedesign.com  Wed Oct 18 20:00:21 2000
From: mtran@bmedesign.com (mike tran)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:00:21 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Help with mailman installation
Message-ID: <39EDF345.3BCEDA3A@bmedesign.com>

I followed the instruction on INSTALL  mailman, but i still have problem
with making it work.  When I point my browser to
http://localhost/mailman/  I get a message "you do not have permission
to view mailman on this server"  When i ran ./configure i used the
--with-cgi-gid=nobody --with-mail-gid=nobody .  We use Apache as our Web
Server.  Any suggestion is appreciated.

Mike



From fil@bok.net  Thu Oct 19 10:50:04 2000
From: fil@bok.net (Fil)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:50:04 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] a patch to get the subscriber's email address in subscribeack.txt
Message-ID: <20001019115004.H8005@orwell.bok.net>

I'm sorry I can't get to sourceforge. Here's a small but useful patch to be
able to use %(name)s in subscribeack.txt so as to write an answer looking
like

"Welcome to the YYYY mailin list. Your address <%(name)s> has been added
succesfully...." where %(name)s is the email of the subscriber. 

I hope you can retain this patch in the official distrib.

btw, why write 'name' when it's actually an email ;)



*** Mailman/Deliverer.py.old    Mon Oct 16 19:14:43 2000
--- Mailman/Deliverer.py        Thu Oct 19 11:30:30 2000
*************** your membership administrative address, 
*** 55,60 ****
--- 55,61 ----
               'listinfo_url': self.GetScriptURL('listinfo', absolute=1),
               'optionsurl'  : self.GetOptionsURL(name, absolute=1),
               'password'    : password,
+              'name'        : name,
               })
          if digest:
              digmode = ' (Digest mode)'


From mailman-users@python.org  Thu Oct 19 18:35:14 2000
From: mailman-users@python.org (Marc MERLIN)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:35:14 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Using mailman with the secure-linux kernel patch
In-Reply-To: <20001005101913.M14681@marc.merlins.org>; from marc_news@valinux.com on Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 10:19:13AM -0700
References: <20001005101913.M14681@marc.merlins.org>
Message-ID: <20001019103514.E7447@marc.merlins.org>

[mailman-developers@python.org  Cced in  case  they want  to  add my  python
script to the tree, but followup set to mailman-users@python.org]
 
On Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 10:19:13AM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> I wanted to have mailman run on my servers that have the secure-linux kernel
> patch. I ended up  writing a small shell script that  changed permissions so
> that  scripts ran  as UID  mailman (by  making sure  that scripts  that lock
> config.db do so with UID mailman).
> I later realized that python doesn't  seem to have a suidpython wrapper like
> perl does, so I  scrapped the shell script and attempted to  put a few lines
> of python together to modify some scripts in mailman/bin so that they change
> their uid  to mailman  if root  runs them  or complain  that they  can't run
> unless their uid is mailman.

My old version forgot to do a chown mailman before chmod 4755. Duh!

The new version, which I'm not pasting here again fixes this:
https://sourceforge.net/patch/?func=detailpatch&patch_id=101812&group_id=103

If you try out this script on your system, please drop me a line by Email to
let me know if all works fine for you

Thanks,
Marc
-- 
Microsoft is to operating systems & security ....
                                      .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
  
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   |   Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key


From barry@wooz.org  Fri Oct 20 06:36:08 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 01:36:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] X-Mailman-Version: header field
References: <20001009124728.AC4D548031@athene.jamux.com>
Message-ID: <14831.55752.277248.836045@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "jam" == John A Martin <jam@jamux.com> writes:

    jam> Will there be an option or an easy edit to not use the
    jam> "X-Mailman-Version:" header field?

No.  But...

    jam> Presumably anybody smart enough to be paranoid would also be
    jam> thoughtful enough to mention the version where appropriate
    jam> when seeking help and so forth.  :-)

...or grep the source code for where those version numbers are added.
It's easy to remove them, for example, by commenting out the lines in
Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py and Mailman/htmlformat.py (hint, grep
for mm_cfg.VERSION).

-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Fri Oct 20 07:17:21 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 02:17:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] QMail patches submitted to sourceforge
References: <20001009132324.H1076@tummy.com>
Message-ID: <14831.58225.127134.412756@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "SR" == Sean Reifschneider <jafo@tummy.com> writes:

    SR> Since SourceForge doesn't allow any lengthy descriptions of
    SR> patches, let me describe them here.

It does, actually, but you have to first submit the patch, then visit
it again and add a comment.  I wish you could add the comment on the
initial patch submission.

    SR> Patch ID 101660: Fixing some information in the README.QMAIL
    SR> file.

Applied.

    SR> Patch ID 101845: Changed calling line in qmail-to-mailman.py
    SR> program to include "preline" call.  Added an entry in FAQ on
    SR> why archiving doesn't work for QMail.

Applied.

    SR> Patch ID 101846: Added a default entry "MTA_TYPE", which can
    SR> be used to trigger MTA-specific actions in other code.  This
    SR> is a port forward of the patch I submitted last year, which I
    SR> believe was dropped.  Defaults.py.in auto-detects QMail and
    SR> sets MTA_TYPE accordingly.  Changes "newlist" to output QMail
    SR> specific text.

Applied, but slightly modified.

    SR> Patch ID 101847: A contrib program which does log rotation and
    SR> mails any messages in "errors" or "smtp-failures" to mailman
    SR> owner.  This is another patch I submitted last year which I
    SR> believe was dropped.

Please re-upload this, but since it's a new file don't submit it as
diff output.  Just upload the entire new file.

Thanks,
-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Fri Oct 20 07:29:45 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 02:29:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman-Bug with faked spam headers and some suggestions new features
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010110059160.828-100000@steffensdomaine.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <14831.58969.17198.42077@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "SB" == Steffen Bardolatzi <steffen@asta.uni-wuppertal.de> writes:

    SB> This looks like a nasty bug ...

    SB> Oct 08 23:53:01 2000 (25258) Delivery exception: read-only
    SB> character buffer, None Oct 08 23:53:01 2000 (25258) Traceback
    SB> (innermost last): File
    SB> "/var/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/HandlerAPI.py", line 82, in
    SB> do_pipeline
    SB>     func(mlist, msg, msgdata) File
    SB> "/var/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py", line 173, in process
    SB> if mlist.require_explicit_destination and \ File
    SB> "/var/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 1208, in
    SB> HasExplicitDest addr = string.lower(addr)
    SB> TypeError: read-only character buffer, None

This will be fixed in rc1.

-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Fri Oct 20 07:29:45 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 02:29:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman-Bug with faked spam headers and some suggestions new features
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010110059160.828-100000@steffensdomaine.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <14831.58969.17198.42077@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "SB" == Steffen Bardolatzi <steffen@asta.uni-wuppertal.de> writes:

    SB> This looks like a nasty bug ...

    SB> Oct 08 23:53:01 2000 (25258) Delivery exception: read-only
    SB> character buffer, None Oct 08 23:53:01 2000 (25258) Traceback
    SB> (innermost last): File
    SB> "/var/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/HandlerAPI.py", line 82, in
    SB> do_pipeline
    SB>     func(mlist, msg, msgdata) File
    SB> "/var/mailman/Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py", line 173, in process
    SB> if mlist.require_explicit_destination and \ File
    SB> "/var/mailman/Mailman/MailList.py", line 1208, in
    SB> HasExplicitDest addr = string.lower(addr)
    SB> TypeError: read-only character buffer, None

This will be fixed in rc1.

-Barry

------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users maillist  -  Mailman-Users@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users



From midnight@the-oasis.net  Sat Oct 21 18:47:06 2000
From: midnight@the-oasis.net (Phil Barnett)
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 13:47:06 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CVS
Message-ID: <39F19E5A.16270.7C1816F@localhost>

I asked on mailman-users and got no definative answer, and I have 
searched the mailman home page and everything it leads me to, 
but I can't find any place where the CVS is tarballed and ready to 
ftp.

Is there such a place?

Does anyone have any objection to my creating a CVS tarball on a 
daily basis and providing this service (assuming it is not already 
being done somewhere...)?


-- 
              Phil Barnett  mailto:midnight@the-oasis.net
                       WWW  http://www.the-oasis.net/
                  FTP Site  ftp://ftp.the-oasis.net


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 23 01:27:58 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:27:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CVS
References: <39F19E5A.16270.7C1816F@localhost>
Message-ID: <14835.34318.543121.178265@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "PB" == Phil Barnett <midnight@the-oasis.net> writes:

    PB> I asked on mailman-users and got no definative answer, and I
    PB> have searched the mailman home page and everything it leads me
    PB> to, but I can't find any place where the CVS is tarballed and
    PB> ready to ftp.

    PB> Is there such a place?

    PB> Does anyone have any objection to my creating a CVS tarball on
    PB> a daily basis and providing this service (assuming it is not
    PB> already being done somewhere...)?

Do you want to create a tarball of the working code, or the
repository?  If the latter, here's basically the cron script I run:

-------------------- snip snip --------------------
#! /bin/sh
cd archives
rooturl="http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cvstarballs"
/usr/local/bin/wget $rooturl/mailman-cvsroot.tar.gz
-------------------- snip snip --------------------

This would be a good thing to do, both as a service to the community,
and as a backup should SF ever go away.

-Barry


From midnight@the-oasis.net  Mon Oct 23 04:56:04 2000
From: midnight@the-oasis.net (Phil Barnett)
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 23:56:04 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CVS daily tarball
In-Reply-To: <14835.34318.543121.178265@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <39F37E94.11291.F1569B1@localhost>

On 22 Oct 2000, at 20:27, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

> 
> >>>>> "PB" == Phil Barnett <midnight@the-oasis.net> writes:
> 
>     PB> I asked on mailman-users and got no definative answer, and I
>     PB> have searched the mailman home page and everything it leads me
>     PB> to, but I can't find any place where the CVS is tarballed and
>     PB> ready to ftp.
> 
>     PB> Is there such a place?
> 
>     PB> Does anyone have any objection to my creating a CVS tarball on
>     PB> a daily basis and providing this service (assuming it is not
>     PB> already being done somewhere...)?
> 
> Do you want to create a tarball of the working code, or the
> repository?  If the latter, here's basically the cron script I run:
> 
> -------------------- snip snip --------------------
> #! /bin/sh
> cd archives
> rooturl="http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cvstarballs"
> /usr/local/bin/wget $rooturl/mailman-cvsroot.tar.gz
> -------------------- snip snip --------------------

Thanks, but I really wanted to go a step farther than that if I'm going 
to automate it.

So, here's the scoop...

Each Sunday morning at 2am, I completely remove my copy and 
grab a fresh copy of the entire CVS repository from SourceForge.

Every morning at 3am, I get a refresh. After each refresh, I create 
two files, one gzip and one bzip.

I keep both files for three days, so after we get rolling, there should 
always be 6 files in the directory.

You can reach these CVS files at:

ftp://ftp.linuxceptional.com/mailman

Today, there is:

ftp://ftp.linuxceptional.com/mailman/mailman-dev-001022.tar.gz
ftp://ftp.linuxceptional.com/mailman/mailman-dev-001022.tar.bz2

You may include this location in your documentation. I'll leave it 
running for the foreseeable future.

Enjoy!


-- 
              Phil Barnett  mailto:midnight@the-oasis.net
                       WWW  http://www.the-oasis.net/
                  FTP Site  ftp://ftp.the-oasis.net


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 23 05:46:43 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 00:46:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CVS daily tarball
References: <14835.34318.543121.178265@anthem.concentric.net>
 <39F37E94.11291.F1569B1@localhost>
Message-ID: <14835.49843.307178.590425@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "PB" == Phil Barnett <midnight@the-oasis.net> writes:

    PB> Each Sunday morning at 2am, I completely remove my copy and
    PB> grab a fresh copy of the entire CVS repository from
    PB> SourceForge.

I don't have time at the moment to look at thise, but do you mean you
do a fresh "cvs co" each time?  That means you get the working files
and not the repository (all the ,v files).  The former is good for end
users, the later is a safeguard for developers.

-Barry


From midnight@the-oasis.net  Mon Oct 23 06:12:51 2000
From: midnight@the-oasis.net (Phil Barnett)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 01:12:51 -0400
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] CVS daily tarball
In-Reply-To: <14835.49843.307178.590425@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <39F39093.14248.F5BB754@localhost>

On 23 Oct 2000, at 0:46, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

> 
> >>>>> "PB" == Phil Barnett <midnight@the-oasis.net> writes:
> 
>     PB> Each Sunday morning at 2am, I completely remove my copy and
>     PB> grab a fresh copy of the entire CVS repository from PB>
>     SourceForge.
> 
> I don't have time at the moment to look at thise, but do you mean you
> do a fresh "cvs co" each time?  That means you get the working files
> and not the repository (all the ,v files).  The former is good for end
> users, the later is a safeguard for developers.

Not a copy of the repository, but a complete checkout.

Once a week:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

#!/bin/bash

export 
CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous@cvs.mailman.sourceforge.net:/cvs
root/mailman

cd /usr/local/plesk/apache/vhosts/linuxceptional.com/current_cvs
rm -r -f mailman
cvs checkout -P mailman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Daily:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

#!/bin/bash

export 
CVSROOT=:pserver:anonymous@cvs.mailman.sourceforge.net:/cvs
root/mailman

if [ -d 
/usr/local/plesk/apache/vhosts/linuxceptional.com/current_cvs/mail
man ]; then

  cd 
/usr/local/plesk/apache/vhosts/linuxceptional.com/current_cvs/mail
man

  cvs update -A -P -d -R
  # fix up the permissions
  find . -type d | xargs chmod 755
  find . -type f | xargs chmod 644

fi

cd /usr/local/plesk/apache/vhosts/linuxceptional.com/current_cvs

DATE=`date +%y%m%d`
PREVDATE=`date +%y%m%d --date '1 day ago'`
PREVDATE2=`date +%y%m%d --date '2 days ago'`
PREVDATE3=`date +%y%m%d --date '3 days ago'`

rm mailman-dev-$PREVDATE3.tar.gz
rm mailman-dev-$PREVDATE3.tar.bz2

tar --gzip  -cpf mailman-dev-$DATE.tar.gz  mailman
tar --bzip2 -cpf mailman-dev-$DATE.tar.bz2 mailman

rm -f ../ftp/mailman/mailman-dev*

cp -p mailman-dev* ../ftp/mailman

cd /usr/local/plesk/apache/vhosts/linuxceptional.com/ftp/mailman
chown -R linux.pleskcln *
chmod 644 *

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



-- 
              Phil Barnett  mailto:midnight@the-oasis.net
                       WWW  http://www.the-oasis.net/
                  FTP Site  ftp://ftp.the-oasis.net


From claw@kanga.nu  Tue Oct 24 03:55:33 2000
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 19:55:33 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Security
Message-ID: <5263.972356133@kanga.nu>

Barry,

A week or so ago (right about the time I dissappeared) I had a drive
die on the system I run Mailman from.  I thought replacing the drive
and restoring its contents from backups would be enough.  It wasn't.
It turns out that in dieing several other filesystems were corrupted
in various odd and inelegant fashions (encluding both my tripwire DB
and its backup sod it).

This has left me in an odd position:

  If I post to a specific list, or approve a held post for that
list, there is an 80% chance that this will crash the machine
(compleat lock, no interrupts, no useful log entries.

  This is reproducable.  I've done it a great many times -- enough
to wish I had a watchdog card in that machine.  Its also rather
scary -- Mailman is running as a non-privileged user after all.

As part of the recovery I've re-installed every single binary on the
entire system (encluding Python et al).  The one thing I haven't
reinstalled is Mailman (v1.1).  I also haven't dissembled or rebuilt
the config.db's for the crashing lists.

Interested in the relevant files?  I'll be saving everything off (of
course), but I doubt I'll have time in the near future to disect
this.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                               Other: coder@kanga.nu
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/        Keys etc: finger claw@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From barry@wooz.org  Tue Oct 24 04:03:47 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (barry@wooz.org)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:03:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Security
References: <5263.972356133@kanga.nu>
Message-ID: <14836.64531.975278.770422@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "JCL" == J C Lawrence <claw@kanga.nu> writes:

    JCL> A week or so ago (right about the time I dissappeared) I had
    JCL> a drive die on the system I run Mailman from.  I thought
    JCL> replacing the drive and restoring its contents from backups
    JCL> would be enough.  It wasn't.  It turns out that in dieing
    JCL> several other filesystems were corrupted in various odd and
    JCL> inelegant fashions (encluding both my tripwire DB and its
    JCL> backup sod it).

    JCL> This has left me in an odd position:

    JCL>   If I post to a specific list, or approve a held post for
    JCL> that list, there is an 80% chance that this will crash the
    JCL> machine (compleat lock, no interrupts, no useful log entries.

    JCL>   This is reproducable.  I've done it a great many times --
    JCL> enough to wish I had a watchdog card in that machine.  Its
    JCL> also rather scary -- Mailman is running as a non-privileged
    JCL> user after all.

    JCL> As part of the recovery I've re-installed every single binary
    JCL> on the entire system (encluding Python et al).  The one thing
    JCL> I haven't reinstalled is Mailman (v1.1).  I also haven't
    JCL> dissembled or rebuilt the config.db's for the crashing lists.

    JCL> Interested in the relevant files?  I'll be saving everything
    JCL> off (of course), but I doubt I'll have time in the near
    JCL> future to disect this.

I'm not sure what I can do, because I currently have no way of running
Mailman 1.1.  I could take your files and upgrade them to 2.0 and see
what happens, but I'd be surprised if I get the same hard crash.

As you say, Mailman isn't doing anything special and has no special
privs.  How could that crash or hang your system?  Maybe it's tripping
a bug in your MTA, web server, or OS.  What flavors and versions of
those do you run?

Very odd.

-Barry


From Dan Mick <Dan.Mick@West.Sun.COM>  Tue Oct 24 04:09:01 2000
From: Dan Mick <Dan.Mick@West.Sun.COM> (Dan Mick)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:09:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Security
Message-ID: <200010240307.UAA24779@utopia.west.sun.com>

>   If I post to a specific list, or approve a held post for that
> list, there is an 80% chance that this will crash the machine
> (compleat lock, no interrupts, no useful log entries.

What do you mean "crash the system"?  Panic and coredump?  Hang?
Crash mailman/python and everything else is still up?

If panic/coredump, some time spent in cursory kernel coredump
analysis is warranted to point a finger at a culprit.  Being a kernel
developer, I'm biased, but when people say "crash the machine"
that's what I think of.  Is that what you mean?



From claw@kanga.nu  Tue Oct 24 04:28:21 2000
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:28:21 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Security
In-Reply-To: Message from barry@wooz.org
 of "Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:03:47 EDT." <14836.64531.975278.770422@anthem.concentric.net>
References: <5263.972356133@kanga.nu>  <14836.64531.975278.770422@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <6527.972358101@kanga.nu>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:03:47 -0400 (EDT) 
barry  <barry@wooz.org> wrote:

> I'm not sure what I can do, because I currently have no way of
> running Mailman 1.1.  

I would of course be willing to prove my entire install, plus the
(Debian) package it was installed from

> I could take your files and upgrade them to 2.0 and see what
> happens, but I'd be surprised if I get the same hard crash.

Aye, that's an artificial and not very revealing test.

> As you say, Mailman isn't doing anything special and has no
> special privs.  How could that crash or hang your system?  Maybe
> it's tripping a bug in your MTA, web server, or OS.  What flavors
> and versions of those do you run?

Apache: 1.3.12
Exim: 3.10
Linux kernels: 2.2.10, 2,2,12, 2,2,16 2.2.16+ReiserFS, 2.4.0-test9 or
               2.4.0-test9+ReiserFS 

I'm certain the bug is not in Apache as it also occurs on post
passing straight to the list without going thru moderation.  It is
possible it is in Exim, tho I'd be extremely surprised.  For one
I've reinstalled all binaries from known good sources, and have
MD5ed all Exim files against both known good sources and the copies
installed on other happily running machines.  It is also unlikely
that the bug is in the kernel as I've reproduced the problem with
kernels built on other (untouched) machines and then installed on
the offending machine, and on kernels built locally from
cryptographically verified source balls.  

> Very odd.

Precisely.

As a total aside: I've become quite fond of ReiserFS.  I didn't have
it running previously to these problems, and only installed it when
I started crashing multiple times a day (while trying to figure out
why).  Its been a real life and time saver.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                               Other: coder@kanga.nu
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/        Keys etc: finger claw@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From claw@kanga.nu  Tue Oct 24 04:31:29 2000
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:31:29 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Security
In-Reply-To: Message from Dan Mick <Dan.Mick@West.Sun.COM>
 of "Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:09:01 PDT." <200010240307.UAA24779@utopia.west.sun.com>
References: <200010240307.UAA24779@utopia.west.sun.com>
Message-ID: <6580.972358289@kanga.nu>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:09:01 -0700 (PDT) 
Dan Mick <Dan.Mick@West.Sun.COM> wrote:

>> If I post to a specific list, or approve a held post for that
>> list, there is an 80% chance that this will crash the machine
>> (compleat lock, no interrupts, no useful log entries).

> What do you mean "crash the system"?  Panic and coredump?  Hang?
> Crash mailman/python and everything else is still up?

As stated: compleat lock, no interrupts being serviced, no log
entries.  Basically: utterly indistinguishable from a powered off
machine other than by power consumption.  No KB, no met, no stack,
no video (well, a slight grayish diffuse glow actually), nuttin'.

> If panic/coredump, some time spent in cursory kernel coredump
> analysis is warranted to point a finger at a culprit.  Being a
> kernel developer, I'm biased, but when people say "crash the
> machine" that's what I think of.  Is that what you mean?

Nope.  No panics, no cores, just one big wedgie.

These are among the reasons this whole thing fits the description of
"odd".

-- 
J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                               Other: coder@kanga.nu
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/        Keys etc: finger claw@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From barry@wooz.org  Tue Oct 24 04:31:51 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (barry@wooz.org)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:31:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Security
References: <5263.972356133@kanga.nu>
 <14836.64531.975278.770422@anthem.concentric.net>
 <6527.972358101@kanga.nu>
Message-ID: <14837.679.527309.949419@anthem.concentric.net>

You might try upgrading to Python 2.0, built from source.  Maybe
Mailman tickles something in Python that tickles something in the
kernel.

Aside from that, trying to figure out exactly which chunk of Python
code is causing the crash is the next thing to do.  I'm afraid that if
you're not getting tracebacks, you'll have to liberally sprinkle the
code with prints to track this down.

-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Tue Oct 24 04:34:18 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (barry@wooz.org)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:34:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Security
References: <200010240307.UAA24779@utopia.west.sun.com>
 <6580.972358289@kanga.nu>
Message-ID: <14837.826.957348.115293@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "JCL" == J C Lawrence <claw@kanga.nu> writes:

    JCL> As stated: compleat lock, no interrupts being serviced, no
    JCL> log entries.  Basically: utterly indistinguishable from a
    JCL> powered off machine other than by power consumption.  No KB,
    JCL> no met, no stack, no video (well, a slight grayish diffuse
    JCL> glow actually), nuttin'.

Here's another thought.  Are you running on an SMP machine?  I believe
there have been reports of older versions of Python having problems
when threads and SMPs are mixed.  Have you enabled the threading
delivery in SMTPDirect?  Turning that off, or upgrading to Python 2.0
(which I believe has fixed the problems I vaguely recall) might do the
trick.

-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Tue Oct 24 04:39:38 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (barry@wooz.org)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:39:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Security
References: <5263.972356133@kanga.nu>
 <14836.64531.975278.770422@anthem.concentric.net>
 <6527.972358101@kanga.nu>
Message-ID: <14837.1146.187349.831441@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "JCL" == J C Lawrence <claw@kanga.nu> writes:

    JCL> Apache: 1.3.12 Exim: 3.10 Linux kernels: 2.2.10, 2,2,12,
    JCL> 2,2,16 2.2.16+ReiserFS, 2.4.0-test9 or 2.4.0-test9+ReiserFS

BTW, my development platform is basically a stock RH6.1 kernel 2.2.12,
Apache 1.3.12, Postfix 19991231, Python 2.0.

-Barry


From claw@kanga.nu  Tue Oct 24 04:50:28 2000
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:50:28 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Security
In-Reply-To: Message from barry@wooz.org
 of "Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:31:51 EDT." <14837.679.527309.949419@anthem.concentric.net>
References: <5263.972356133@kanga.nu> <14836.64531.975278.770422@anthem.concentric.net> <6527.972358101@kanga.nu>  <14837.679.527309.949419@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <7675.972359428@kanga.nu>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:31:51 -0400 (EDT) 
barry  <barry@wooz.org> wrote:

> You might try upgrading to Python 2.0, built from source.  Maybe
> Mailman tickles something in Python that tickles something in the
> kernel.

<sigh>  I'm not keen on that as it perturbs the base condition.

> Aside from that, trying to figure out exactly which chunk of
> Python code is causing the crash is the next thing to do.  I'm
> afraid that if you're not getting tracebacks, you'll have to
> liberally sprinkle the code with prints to track this down.

Quite.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                               Other: coder@kanga.nu
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/        Keys etc: finger claw@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Tue Oct 24 04:44:45 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:44:45 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Security
In-Reply-To: <14836.64531.975278.770422@anthem.concentric.net>
References: <5263.972356133@kanga.nu>
 <14836.64531.975278.770422@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <p04330102b61ab5cf7d3a@[17.216.27.202]>

At 11:03 PM -0400 10/23/00, barry@wooz.org wrote:


>     JCL>   If I post to a specific list, or approve a held post for
>     JCL> that list, there is an 80% chance that this will crash the
>     JCL> machine (compleat lock, no interrupts, no useful log entries.
>
>     JCL>   This is reproducable.


>I'm not sure what I can do, because I currently have no way of running
>Mailman 1.1.  I could take your files and upgrade them to 2.0 and see
>what happens, but I'd be surprised if I get the same hard crash.

I sincerely doubt Barry would see it, because I'd be willing to bet 
dinner it's a bad block on the disk, and it's lodged in one of the 
files (probably the .db file) attached to that list.

i'd do a surface test of that disk and see if it finds problems. I'd 
give it 90% chance it will. This just screams "bad block!" at me.

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From claw@kanga.nu  Tue Oct 24 04:52:20 2000
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:52:20 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Security
In-Reply-To: Message from barry@wooz.org
 of "Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:34:18 EDT." <14837.826.957348.115293@anthem.concentric.net>
References: <200010240307.UAA24779@utopia.west.sun.com> <6580.972358289@kanga.nu>  <14837.826.957348.115293@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <7733.972359540@kanga.nu>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:34:18 -0400 (EDT) 
barry  <barry@wooz.org> wrote:

>>>>>> "JCL" == J C Lawrence <claw@kanga.nu> writes:

JCL> As stated: compleat lock, no interrupts being serviced, no log
JCL> entries.  Basically: utterly indistinguishable from a powered
JCL> off machine other than by power consumption.  No KB, no met, no
JCL> stack, no video (well, a slight grayish diffuse glow actually),
JCL> nuttin'.

> Here's another thought.  Are you running on an SMP machine?  

Yes.

> I believe there have been reports of older versions of Python
> having problems when threads and SMPs are mixed.  Have you enabled
> the threading delivery in SMTPDirect?  Turning that off, or
> upgrading to Python 2.0 (which I believe has fixed the problems I
> vaguely recall) might do the trick.

What I find most odd is taht I've processed several hundreds of
thousands of messages thu this exact setup without fail (200 day
uptime, half dozen lists, etc) and yet now its unhappy roughly 80%
of the time.  Something lese is odd I suspect.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                               Other: coder@kanga.nu
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/        Keys etc: finger claw@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From claw@kanga.nu  Tue Oct 24 04:57:23 2000
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:57:23 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Security
In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com>
 of "Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:44:45 PDT." <p04330102b61ab5cf7d3a@[17.216.27.202]>
References: <5263.972356133@kanga.nu> <14836.64531.975278.770422@anthem.concentric.net>  <p04330102b61ab5cf7d3a@[17.216.27.202]>
Message-ID: <7868.972359843@kanga.nu>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:44:45 -0700 
Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> wrote:

> I sincerely doubt Barry would see it, because I'd be willing to
> bet dinner it's a bad block on the disk, and it's lodged in one of
> the files (probably the .db file) attached to that list.

This was one of my early thoughts as well, but the fact that the
behaviour continues after I've the partitions on the system and
reformatted them with new filesystems (ReiserFS as versus Ext2FS)
rather suggests this isn't it.

> i'd do a surface test of that disk and see if it finds
> problems. I'd give it 90% chance it will. This just screams "bad
> block!" at me.

<nod> That, and the frequent crash rate was one of the things that
prompted me to put ReiserFS on.  Before I'd figured that quite a bit
had been messed up by the dieing drive I'd been seeing signs that
several filesystems were unhealthy at the filesystem level.  So I
did surface checks, restored all the files, got crashes, did new
surface checks and went to a new filesystem, rolled everything back
and go crashes...

-- 
J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                               Other: coder@kanga.nu
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/        Keys etc: finger claw@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From dan@feld.cvut.cz  Tue Oct 24 08:38:56 2000
From: dan@feld.cvut.cz (Dan Ohnesorg)
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:38:56 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Security
In-Reply-To: <6527.972358101@kanga.nu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010240916190.19146-100000@poli.feld.cvut.cz>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2000, J C Lawrence wrote:

> I'm certain the bug is not in Apache as it also occurs on post
> passing straight to the list without going thru moderation.  It is
> possible it is in Exim, tho I'd be extremely surprised.  For one
> I've reinstalled all binaries from known good sources, and have
> MD5ed all Exim files against both known good sources and the copies
> installed on other happily running machines.  It is also unlikely
> that the bug is in the kernel as I've reproduced the problem with
> kernels built on other (untouched) machines and then installed on
> the offending machine, and on kernels built locally from
> cryptographically verified source balls.  

I am running mailman from the beginning of mailman developing (John Viegas
version, Im not sure if the name is correct, but cheers John). It runs on
SMP machine and I have never such a problem. I have seen problems with
forking of sendmail into 1000 processes while delivering messages in big
(500 members) lists after comminting pending request. It is normal and I
have solving it by changing the parametr, whichwas called like number of
delivering processes.
But my kernel was never confused from this like Yours. I would say, Your
memory chips are wrong. User space program can never corupt filesystem. 

cheers
dan



-- 
                    ________________________________________
DDDDDD             
DD   DD                Dan Ohnesorg, supervisor on POWER     
DD  OOOO               Dan@feld.cvut.cz
DD OODDOO              Dep. of Power Engineering
DDDDDD OO              CTU FEL Prague, Bohemia
   OO  OO              work: +420 2 24352785;+420 2 24972109
    OOOO               home: +420 311 679679;+420 311 679311
                    ________________________________________

Spatril jsem ji tak jak ji panbuh stvoril.
  A stal se ateistou.




From fil@bok.net  Tue Oct 24 10:41:19 2000
From: fil@bok.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:41:19 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bug in confirmation mesaage headers
Message-ID: <20001024114119.A8818@orwell.bok.net>

A bug :  the confirmation message (aka verify.txt) headers are bad in
2.0b6

List-Subscribe: <../listinfo/listname>, ...
List-Unsubscribe: <../listinfo/listname>, ...





From fil@bok.net  Tue Oct 24 10:55:02 2000
From: fil@bok.net (Fil)
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:55:02 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bug in confirmation mesaage headers
In-Reply-To: <20001024114119.A8818@orwell.bok.net>; from fil@bok.net on Tue, Oct 24, 2000 at 11:41:19AM +0200
References: <20001024114119.A8818@orwell.bok.net>
Message-ID: <20001024115502.B8818@orwell.bok.net>

Here's the patch :

*** Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py     2000/10/06 21:06:28     1.16
--- Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py     2000/10/24 09:53:10
*************** def process(mlist, msg, msgdata):
*** 100,115 ****
          listid = mlist.description + ' ' + listid
      requestaddr = mlist.GetRequestEmail()
      subfieldfmt = '<%s>, <mailto:%s?subject=%ssubscribe>'
!     listinfo = mlist.GetScriptURL('listinfo')
      #
      # TBD: List-Id is not in the RFC, but it was in an earlier draft so we
      # leave it in for historical reasons.
      headers = {
          'List-Id'         : listid,
          'List-Help'       : '<mailto:%s?subject=help>' % requestaddr,
          'List-Unsubscribe': subfieldfmt % (listinfo, requestaddr, 'un'),
          'List-Subscribe'  : subfieldfmt % (listinfo, requestaddr, ''),
          'List-Post'       : '<mailto:%s>' % mlist.GetListEmail(),
          }
      #
      # First we delete any pre-existing headers because the RFC permist only
--- 100,115 ----
          listid = mlist.description + ' ' + listid
      requestaddr = mlist.GetRequestEmail()
      subfieldfmt = '<%s>, <mailto:%s?subject=%ssubscribe>'
!     listinfo = mlist.GetScriptURL('listinfo', absolute=1)
      #
      # TBD: List-Id is not in the RFC, but it was in an earlier draft so we
      # leave it in for historical reasons.
      headers = {
          'List-Id'         : listid,
          'List-Help'       : '<mailto:%s?subject=help>' % requestaddr,
          'List-Unsubscribe': subfieldfmt % (listinfo, requestaddr, 'un'),
          'List-Subscribe'  : subfieldfmt % (listinfo, requestaddr, ''),
          'List-Post'       : '<mailto:%s>' % mlist.GetListEmail(),
          }
      #
      # First we delete any pre-existing headers because the RFC permist only


* Fil (fil@bok.net) écrivait :
> 
> A bug :  the confirmation message (aka verify.txt) headers are bad in
> 2.0b6
> 
> List-Subscribe: <../listinfo/listname>, ...
> List-Unsubscribe: <../listinfo/listname>, ...


From ckolar@admin.aurora.edu  Tue Oct 24 15:51:11 2000
From: ckolar@admin.aurora.edu (Christopher Kolar)
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:51:11 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] b6, postfix/qrunner super disaster
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001024092309.0345f550@admin.aurora.edu>

Hi all.  I know that one man's disaster is another man's chuckle at an 
incompetent amateur system administrator, but here goes.

I am running 2b6 under Mandrake 7.1 using postfix as an MTA.  Last Thursday 
I posted a note to a small mail list but the note never showed up.  I 
posted to the users list on that matter.  First off I addressed the locking 
problem and deleted the locks/ files.  That did not solve the problem, so I 
then looked at the smtp log and saw that Mm was trying to send the message, 
but was getting a return of:
         host not found
when trying to send the 20 copies of the message.  I messed around with it, 
and saw qrunner trying to resend the message every minute, and figured that 
it must be a temporary DNS problem with my ISP and left it alone.  During 
this process I monitored both the normal qrunner cron operations and also 
tried to manually push the queue by evoking the qrunner command line that 
is found in the cron file.

Then I left for four days in San Francisco.

When I got back I discovered that I had 20 new sworn enemies.  Sunday 
morning, as if by magic, the mail actually got delivered, 1400 copies of 
it.  Now I realize that I may have done something really stupid along the 
way, but I also think that it may be worthwhile to figure out what 
happened.  I am wondering if qrunner got the error message and kept the 
item in qfiles, but postfix also deferred delivery of the message and kept 
it in the MTA mqueue -- growing by one copy a minute until the server was 
able to successfully find the recipients' hosts.

If anyone would like to do some forensics on this I would be happy to share 
log file data, both from Mailman and the regular mail log.  Thanks in 
advance for thinking about this problem and what the cause of it may have been.

--chris

--
/////\\\\\/////\\\\\
  Christopher G. Kolar
    Director, Department of Instructional Technology
    Aurora University, Aurora, Illinois
  ckolar@admin.aurora.edu  --  www.aurora.edu/~ckolar
         [PGP Public Key ID: 0xC6492C72]



From claw@kanga.nu  Wed Oct 25 19:14:40 2000
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:14:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Security
In-Reply-To: Message from Dan Ohnesorg <dan@feld.cvut.cz>
 of "Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:38:56 +0200." <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010240916190.19146-100000@poli.feld.cvut.cz>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010240916190.19146-100000@poli.feld.cvut.cz>
Message-ID: <11722.972497680@kanga.nu>

On Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:38:56 +0200 (CEST) 
Dan Ohnesorg <dan@feld.cvut.cz> wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Oct 2000, J C Lawrence wrote:
>> I'm certain the bug is not in Apache as it also occurs on post
>> passing straight to the list without going thru moderation.  It
>> is possible it is in Exim, tho I'd be extremely surprised.  For
>> one I've reinstalled all binaries from known good sources, and
>> have MD5ed all Exim files against both known good sources and the
>> copies installed on other happily running machines.  It is also
>> unlikely that the bug is in the kernel as I've reproduced the
>> problem with kernels built on other (untouched) machines and then
>> installed on the offending machine, and on kernels built locally
>> from cryptographically verified source balls.

> I am running mailman from the beginning of mailman developing
> (John Viegas version, Im not sure if the name is correct, but
> cheers John). 

As have I.

> It runs on SMP machine and I have never such a problem. 

Ditto.  I currently have various versions of Mailman running on
three SMP systems without problems.  The fact that this particular
(other) SMP system is having Mailman problems does not seem related
to SMP.

> I have seen problems with forking of sendmail into 1000 processes
> while delivering messages in big (500 members) lists after
> comminting pending request. 

This is a common MTA configuration issue, most often seen with QMail
FWLIW.  MTA tuning, especially as mail volumes grow, is a bit of an
art.  There was some interesting discussion on this area between Me
and Chug on this list a couple months back you might want to look
at.

> But my kernel was never confused from this like Yours. I would
> say, Your memory chips are wrong. User space program can never
> corupt filesystem.

It is possible I have bad RAM.  It seems rather unlikely however
(see below),

You are missing data from the beginning of the thread.

I had a disk die (it held various mail archives).  In dieing it not
only took down the system, but also succeeded in trashing various
bits of other filesystems on other devices.  Among the files trashed
were the tripwire database and its backups.  This was not apparent
when I replaced the drive and restored all relevant files from
known-good/secure backups.

Given the new drive, the system remained unstable, crashing
frequently (uptime measured in single digit hours).  This is as
compared to a previous uptime of near 200 days.

I then replaced every binary on the system from original verified
packages, encluding the kernel (built a new kernel locally from
cryptographicslly signed and checked sources, using a new
hand-checked .config).

Crashes continued and seemed to be coincident with mail travelling
thru Mailman, either thru the weba approval process, or direct
through to the exploder (no approval)

The MTA at this point appeared to be happy.  Several tens of
thousands of messages a day travel through that system, and were
successfully passing through the system between crashes (my
secondary MXes were dumping mail onto the system at a rate of well
over 2K messages per minute upon rebooting from an extended crash --
which the system took quite happily).  All crashes were observed to
be time coincident with Mailman mail activities.

Suspecting bad disk blocks and potentially other hidden filesystem
troubles I then replaced all filesystems (except / and /boot) on the
system with journalling filesystems (ReiserFS), doing a surface
check on all partitions before putting the new filesystems on.  I
again replaced every binary on the system from confirmed correct
packages, and built a new kernel on a known secure machine from
crypographically signed and checked sources.  Additionally I double
checked by doing MD5Sum signature comparisons of key binaries on the
target system, with specific attention paid the the mail system,
against a known secure system.  They matched perfectly.  

Finally I ran a semi-burn-in on the system: leaving it over night
continuously building kernels AND using SCP to send those kernels to
and from a remote box (to hit the network stack) with MD5 checks on
each end AND sending an average of 25K mail messages per minute to a
another system on the local net (100base-T connected).  The next
morning there was not a single error in any file, all SCP copies had
compleated without error, all MD5 checks were passed, and neither
MTA listed any problems (the messages themselves were
bit-bucketted).

I then rolled the box back into production.

Crashes continued.

They also continued after building a new kernel on the target
machine -- from similarly verified sources (needed a slight tweak).

I then replaced mailman from known good sources.

Crashes continued.

I've now removed all bytecoded files in the Mailman installation.
Additionally I've hand unrolled and re-rolled the config.db for one
of the lists that appears to be creating troubles.  The unrolled DB
looked good.  Additionally, as I had in excess of 30K messages in my
MTA spool pending delivery to assorted unresponsive remote systems
and I suspected that a corrupted queue file might have been causing
problems with Exim (which does briefly run as a privileged user), I
hand moved all spool entries from the target system to another
known-stable/secure system.

We'll see what happens now.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                               Other: coder@kanga.nu
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/        Keys etc: finger claw@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From jasonr@aristotle.bomis.com  Wed Oct 25 21:40:04 2000
From: jasonr@aristotle.bomis.com (Jason Richey)
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:40:04 -0500
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Posts by "Posters" not archived
Message-ID: <20001025154004.D23290@aristotle.bomis.com>

Is this the regular (desired) behaviour?

When someone who is listed as a "Poster" posts to a list, it is not
archived. 

I am running 2.0beta2.  I apologize if this has already been
addressed.


-- 
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr@aristotle.bomis.com>



From Nigel.Metheringham@VData.co.uk  Thu Oct 26 18:26:12 2000
From: Nigel.Metheringham@VData.co.uk (Nigel Metheringham)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:26:12 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] htdig indexing
Message-ID: <E13oqn6-0007nY-00@rioja.localnet>

This is a multipart MIME message.

--==_Exmh_7713113640
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I've been playing with Richard's htdig indexing patches for mailman 
(they are in the patches set for 2.0beta6 on sourceforge).  I've 
finally got it working to my satisfaction just as I'm about to be away 
for a bit so I am rushing this out now....

I have not looked at 2.0rc1 so I don't know whether the indexer patches 
went into that.

The enclosed patch makes the following changes:-

  1. Turns off the index/noindex additions to the TOC files
     since they are already marked with the META tags as noindex
     and the combination appeared to be confusing htdig and making
     the indexes less useful.

  2. Changes the URLs used to match the web urls for the list
     (previously tended to use the machine hostname instead).

You can see the effect at
	http://www.exim.org/pipermail/exim-users/

[which is an invitation for it to stop working]

Patch attached is relative to Richard's 2 patches - ie apply both of 
his ones *first*.

	Nigel.


--==_Exmh_7713113640
Content-Type: application/x-patch ; name="index-finalisation.patch"
Content-Description: index-finalisation.patch
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="index-finalisation.patch"
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--==_Exmh_7713113640
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

[ - Opinions expressed are personal and may not be shared by VData - ]
[ Nigel Metheringham                  Nigel.Metheringham@VData.co.uk ]
[ Phone: +44 1423 850000                         Fax +44 1423 858866 ]

--==_Exmh_7713113640--




From Moneymaker67@aol.com  Fri Oct 27 07:09:57 2000
From: Moneymaker67@aol.com (Moneymaker67@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:09:57 EDT
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] (no subject)
Message-ID: <5d.27618c3.272a7635@aol.com>

HI,WHAT'S UP ? WITH JON ?   THINK FUZZY NAVELS ARE ROYALTIES
THEY ARE SO GOOD LIKE LYRICS THEY ARE SO EASY .IT BRINGS LOTS OF
LUCK , LOTS OF GOOD AND IT DON'T MATTER TO ME ANYMORE WHAT GOES 
ON I'M WELL KNOWN NOW ,GUESS I'LL BE SOMEBODY BECAUSE I NEVER 
GAVE UP , I'VE COME TO FAR TO GIVE UP NOW . WELL YOU TAKE CARE 
I'M BETTER THAN I'VE EVER BEEN , I FEEL NOTHING ANYMORE.
GUESS WRITTING HAS THAT EFFECT ON SOMEONE.
                                                                              
   SEFFNERPLUM
                                                                    JON LORD 
HELLO 


From joe@apollo.wuacc.edu  Fri Oct 27 15:00:40 2000
From: joe@apollo.wuacc.edu (Joe Hewitt)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:00:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding elements to config.db
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010270853130.944-100000@apollo.wuacc.edu>

I've been moving a number of our lists to mailman in recent days and the
question about additional data to qualify subscribers has come up.

Some listowners want to know who the subscriber is and what their role is.
All are working the legal community and more sensitive about such matters 
than the normal human.

So the question is: can I or should I add new elements like username or
userrole to config.db?  What are the ramifications?  

And can I define new variables in the needed programs of Mailman?

I must confess that I'm still using Mailman 1.1. Could I address my
problem with Mailman 2.x?

Any insights are appreciated.


 Joe Hewitt joe@apollo.wuacc.edu



From barry@wooz.org  Fri Oct 27 19:54:08 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 14:54:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] bug in confirmation mesaage headers
References: <20001024114119.A8818@orwell.bok.net>
Message-ID: <14841.53072.597144.457759@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "F" == Fil  <fil@bok.net> writes:

    F> A bug : the confirmation message (aka verify.txt) headers are
    F> bad in 2.0b6

    | List-Subscribe: <../listinfo/listname>, ...
    | List-Unsubscribe: <../listinfo/listname>, ...

    F> Here's the patch :

Thanks.  Applied.
-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Fri Oct 27 20:40:35 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:40:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] b6, postfix/qrunner super disaster
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001024092309.0345f550@admin.aurora.edu>
Message-ID: <14841.55859.226402.488206@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CK" == Christopher Kolar <ckolar@admin.aurora.edu> writes:

    CK> I am wondering if qrunner got the error message and kept the
    CK> item in qfiles, but postfix also deferred delivery of the
    CK> message and kept it in the MTA mqueue -- growing by one copy a
    CK> minute until the server was able to successfully find the
    CK> recipients' hosts.

You're using SMTPDirect.py right?  Let's look at how deliver() works:

- It tries to create an smtplib.SMTP instance, passing in the hostname
  and port that you've specified in mm_cfg.py (or inherited from
  Defaults.py).

  This step could raise a socket.error or a general SMTPException.
  The assumption is that if that happens, the MTA never got the
  message and essentially delivery failed for all recipients.

- Next, the SMTP.sendmail() method is called to sent the message text
  to the list of recipients.  One of two things could happen here:

  a. an SMTPRecipientsRefused is raised, meaning that some but not all
     of the recipients had delivery problems.  The exception object
     has an attribute which contains the failing recipients.  The
     assumption here is that delivery failed to those recipients.

  b. the sendmail() method could return a list of failed recipients
     similar to (a) above.

- Each failed recipient has a corresponding error code describing why
  that recipient failed.  Each failed recipient is processed in turn:

  a. If the error code is >= 500 but <> 552, then the failure is
     deemed permanent according to RFC 821 and DRUMS.  That address is
     RegisterBounce()'d and discarded.

  b. Otherwise the failure is deemed temporary, so Mailman remembers
     the address for retry.

- If there are any retryable addresses, the message remains in the
  qfiles queue and retried with the temmporary failure recipients.

So, the only thing I can guess at is that Postfix is returning a
temporary failure code for recipients which it still tries to do
delivery.  Simon Coggins reports similar symptoms with sendmail, but
I've never seen them, and I suspect that the situation causing these
must be pretty rare.

So that's the idea behind SMTPDirect.py, but I still don't know enough
to understand what's causing the dups.  Could it be some
misunderstanding of the RFC 821 error codes?

-Barry


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Sat Oct 28 08:18:54 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 00:18:54 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] fyi -- possible problem with mailman
Message-ID: <p04330103b6202dcaf7b0@[209.239.169.197]>

haven't had a chance to debug this, but.. It looks like mailman (b6) 
has a problem if it's processing the queue and it can't connect to 
it's SMTP host.

On the system I just upgraded, my SMTP would start rejecting messages 
because of load. And I'm seeing lots of zero length files come in 
because of it. They seem to be related.

I'll sniff more details when I get a chance, but I'm definitely 
seeing a rash of zero length files being sent to (as far as I can 
tell) the admin of the list, and it seems to be tied to this. I 
think...

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From steffen@wflin3.asta.uni-wuppertal.de  Sat Oct 28 19:29:22 2000
From: steffen@wflin3.asta.uni-wuppertal.de (Steffen Bardolatzi)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 20:29:22 +0200
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug in Mailman Beta 6?
Message-ID: <20001028202922.A7164@wflin3.asta.uni-wuppertal.de>

We got the following error log:

Oct 25 16:31:00 2000 (4885) Bouncer exception: body
Oct 25 16:31:00 2000 (4885) Traceback (innermost last):
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/BouncerAPI.py", line 65, in
ScanMessages
    mlist.RegisterBounce(addr, msg)
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncer.py", line 141, in RegisterBounce
    self.HandleBouncingAddress(addr, msg)
  File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncer.py", line 236, in HandleBouncingAddress
    text = text + \
AttributeError: body

... in combination with:


Oct 25 16:31:00 2000 (4885) unknownlist:  - unknownuser@domain.ext
exceeded limits
Oct 25 16:31:00 2000 (4885) Alleasr: disabled
unknownuser@domian.ext

[hosts and e-mail address anonymized]


Obviously, disabling of an adress due to more than the allowed number of
bounces causes this error message.


Does this bug is going to be fixed in mailman 2.0 final?


Thanks in advance.


From Dan.Mick@west.sun.com  Sat Oct 28 20:08:26 2000
From: Dan.Mick@west.sun.com (Dan Mick)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:08:26 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug in Mailman Beta 6?
References: <20001028202922.A7164@wflin3.asta.uni-wuppertal.de>
Message-ID: <39FB242A.A820E307@west.sun.com>

I remember an attempt at a fix, and it looks like your version of Bouncer.py is not
up-to-date (don't see a version in your message).  I think it's fixed.

Steffen Bardolatzi wrote:
> 
> We got the following error log:
> 
> Oct 25 16:31:00 2000 (4885) Bouncer exception: body
> Oct 25 16:31:00 2000 (4885) Traceback (innermost last):
>   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncers/BouncerAPI.py", line 65, in
> ScanMessages
>     mlist.RegisterBounce(addr, msg)
>   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncer.py", line 141, in RegisterBounce
>     self.HandleBouncingAddress(addr, msg)
>   File "/var/mailman/Mailman/Bouncer.py", line 236, in HandleBouncingAddress
>     text = text + \
> AttributeError: body
> 
> ... in combination with:
> 
> Oct 25 16:31:00 2000 (4885) unknownlist:  - unknownuser@domain.ext
> exceeded limits
> Oct 25 16:31:00 2000 (4885) Alleasr: disabled
> unknownuser@domian.ext
> 
> [hosts and e-mail address anonymized]
> 
> Obviously, disabling of an adress due to more than the allowed number of
> bounces causes this error message.
> 
> Does this bug is going to be fixed in mailman 2.0 final?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mailman-Developers mailing list
> Mailman-Developers@python.org
> http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers


From ctambour@hotmail.com  Sun Oct 29 04:55:37 2000
From: ctambour@hotmail.com (craig tamboury)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 04:55:37 GMT
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Feature/Forum
Message-ID: <F10kcJse1fTvOSQeSOz00002f67@hotmail.com>

     Hi. I'm looking for a Feature/Forum for the following topic that I can 
be directed to or find out if one can be created. "Rights VS Regulation", 
"Do we really write the Law?" "Beyond Politics" "Just what is Radical 
Reform?" something along those lines.

Also this 3,172 word doc. is too long for most newspaper sections. I think 
it qualifies as being "newsworthy" in a part the "Fourth Estate" and I can't 
find anyone to "Mail" it to. Any feedback or re-direction would be greatly 
appreciated. My kid's soccer listserver turned out to be very helpful in 
directing Field Sriping/Score Card/etc. info but I'm not entirely sure what 
role the Developers at python play.                                     
Thanks


     Able adamz, leader of The Civil-American War, understands The Rule of 
Law and swears to uphold & defend the facts in the Declaration of 
Independence and the process of the Constitution. 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
     Thirteen years ago in April, this announcement was not allowed to run 
in the Argus Courier Newspaper in Petaluma under the Announcement section in 
the Classified ads.
     Previous paid announcement were:
     2-27-1985: Able adamz is running for President this next election.
     3-18-1987: Able adams is now acting President of these 50 United 
States, Leader of
    The Civil-American War.
      3-30 1987: Able adamz, Leader of the Civil American War, pledges 
allegiance to the Democracy of these 50 United States of America and to the 
Republic for which it stands, one Nation, Indivisible with Liberty and 
Justice for all.
      They had a policy not to run anything containing an address at which 
the person did not live. Two letters were then mailed.  One addressed "Able 
adamz/1600 Pennsylvania Ave." & one labeled "1600 Pennsylvania Ave."  They 
were both returned stamped "Returned for Better Address".  After telling the 
Editor there was no address contained in the announcement and it was a 
"Right" to have it run, he said he wasn't going to debate about freedom of 
the press.  He said it was his newspaper and suggested to have it carried in 
an UNDERGROUND newspaper.  After a few non-productive calls to the ACLU it 
became apparent there was no interest to pursue the issue.
     At that time the most common definition of the word "Politician" had 
all ready changed from its original meaning "Politico/Legislative 
Representative" to "Someone who misused words for political gain".  Today it 
is synonymous with "Scumbag; A person who knowingly misrepresents issues for 
personal/political gain/power and self-esteem".
     We are legislating/programming the limits of our legal behavior in the 
form of what we call law.  We humans have been doing this 
legislating/proclaiming/mandating for THOUSANDS of years.  Democracy is over 
1,000 years old. Working Republics are older than that.
    Over two hundred years ago when equality and individual rights were 
written into the foundation of our American Government, we changed forever 
the idea that Aristocracies or Armies were the only way to protect the 
people of a Nation.  Protecting the Rights/Property/Liberty etc. of the 
individual through the enforcement of law protects the borders in which that 
individual lives as well.
     50 States, 50 sets of laws, 1 Nation?
      The American Revolution was fought mostly just NOT to be ruled by 
someone else. Specifically King George/England.  What kind of "Rule" we 
would win for ourselves was a dream containing bits and parts of other 
governments that painted a picture of something different to everyone.
     The world changing concepts of our now:  Check and Balance System, 
Separation of Church and State, Rights, Equality, Liberty etc. all rolled 
into one, are argueably due to sheer luck, trying to meet a deadline, mental 
exhaustion after a War and the right people being at the right place at the 
right time.  The latter through their own determination.
     The American Civil War was fought on a narrower focus:  "There is no 
backing out!".
     The protections our forefathers gave us will ALWAYS apply to the people 
and soil for which it was intended.  A Nation called America.  I personally 
still get goosebumps thinking about what these events have meant to mankind.
     WWII, without argument, was defending against world domination.  Due to 
the arrival of mass communication and the formation of Political alliances, 
there was no ignoring the procession of War Machines that were changing the 
sovereignty of countries so fast and indiscriminately that sides formed as a 
matter of default. Neutrality was as ineffective as the League of Nations.  
Good ideas, but unrealistic to rely on to defend your borders under the 
circumstances.
     The United States was not fighting for independence from an unjust 
Ruler nor to stop Secession nor to come to the aid of Countries that 
couldn't defend themselves (Korean /Viet Nam Conflict).  We were fighting 
for our very survival in a World without an all powerful referee or "Rule 
Book".
      History tells us that Empires of the past have controlled vast areas 
of what we call "Civilization" for considerable amounts of time but it is 
obvious that none could meet the needs of controlling different cultures of 
people.
     "Civilized", is how the people of a Nation/Society/Empire/Tribe act 
toward one another.  Possessions, wealth, table manners, technology, 
advanced education are irrelevant factors when gauging the "Peacefulness" of 
a society.
          This is where "The Law" comes in.
     Written Law may not be necessary in today's "Tribal" (Rural/Low 
technology) societies where oral tradition and living off the land are the 
way of life but it has been a part of almost every society bigger than "A 
handful" for over 3,000 years.
     Since the end of WWII, the United State along with the rest of the 
world has been working on the Rule Book (International Law) through the 
United Nations.  The clear-cut intent is to reduce the chance of War between 
Nations through education, co-operation & The Rule of Law (A determination 
of the applicable rule as distinguished from the finding of fact). Like our 
Check & Balance System, the U.N. has a World Court, Peace Keeping Troops and 
a Legislative Body. This is as much as we can do outside America, but what 
about inside?
     American Law (of our own making) which is mandating the legal limits of 
our behavior is based on our Rights to pursue our liberties in society VS. 
our responsibility to respect (not infringe upon) the Rights of others.  
This appears to be the first premise of our program. The "Source Code" from 
which we can see the difference between Right (our Rights) and Wrong (Legal 
infringements upon others).  [NOTE- if this program/software can be 
proprietary in nature, I hereby claim it in the name of Able adamz lest some 
claim jumper beats me to the Patent/Copyright office. Amen].  At this level 
of the program it appears you have the Right to Pursue your way in life 
(Work/Leisure/Interests) until one of your actions result in the 
infringement of the Rights of another (Victim).
      Example: Driving down the road with the right of way you get hit by a 
car not having the right of way.  Some of the" Applicable Rules" that come 
into play now are Vehicle Code & Insurance Code. If more facts emerge 
(Injury or Death to passengers, Under the influence, Drag racing) more 
"Applicable Rules" apply (Criminal Codes, Manslaughter, etc).  That is how 
simple the use of the "Rule of Law" is to understand.  Regardless of how 
many facts are involved, it just tells you to match them up with the 
"Applicable Rules" broken.
     Even though we know they are still developing, children as young/old as 
5 or 6 are expected to know certain things that are "Wrong" to do. Taking, 
hitting, saying mean untrue things about someone, scratching paint off the 
neighbor's car with a nail they found, throwing their candy wrapper on the 
ground or peeing in somebody's pool.  By 12 to 14 years young/old, we have 
explained, iterated and re-iterated these "Wrong" things at home & school.  
"I didn't know that" becomes a response un-believed. Possibly a lie? When 
they hit 18/Adulthood these "Wrongs" described become Theft, Battery, 
Slander, Littering and Polluting, all punishable by "Fines" and or "Jail 
time". "I didn't know that" becomes "Ignorance of the Law is no excuse". 
What happened to the formal Training & Testing we give for "Every Other" 
subject we teach in school?
     Without argument, learning to "Be a Good Citizen", is implied as a part 
of the "Educational Process". Raising/lowering the "American/State" flags, 
saying the "Pledge of Allegiance", playing "The Star Spangled Banner" & 
"Mandatory Attendance" are reminders.
     "Learning" to be a good citizen is just that. Taking a Subject/Life 
Skill that is "Now and always will be" necessary to be understood in the 
course of your everyday life and "Teaching" it in a way so we can gauge the 
level of comprehension.
     To the best of my knowledge, there is no "Curriculum" or "Standard of 
Comprehension" in this Subject/Life Skill called "Citizenship/The Law".
     "How a Bill Becomes a Law" and any of the other "Processes" of how 
Government works is a more "Specialized" subject matter. "Voting" is a more 
"Practical" subject. A Candidate/Initiative is proposed. Voters inform 
themselves of their choices. Voters vote. Majority (Highest Percentage, Over 
2/3's, etc.) Rules win. Simple. This may happen 2 or 3 times a year. Knowing 
the "Electoral College" is what really elects the President and the "Popular 
Vote" is virtually useless/worthless, is a trivial Game Show question. It 
only comes up once every 4 years.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Now is the time to explain how the text of this Article/Document ties 
in to "The Civil-American War" (As opposed to the American Civil War of 
1864) & the proposed "Take Over of America".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
      "The Civil-American War" is the "Un-Declared" War that is most closely 
associated with the "Peace Movement" & the "Human Rights" cause.
     It is a battle to incorporate the "Apparent" "First Premise/Source 
Code/Liberty Within Responsibility" into the real "Rule Book" of America. 
The limits by which we can proceed in a "Civilized" society are:

                                       RULES OF ENGAGEMENT:

Rule #1. -  No Littering
                  No Fighting
                  No Theft or Destruction of Property

     As "Littering/Polluting" on a large scale comes full circle & ties into 
"Destruction of Property", this is a "Closed Set" of "Rules" that represents 
infringements upon others.
     The general range of  "Fighting" starts with Accosting (Speaking to 
someone/stranger on the street first/impeding the progress of) to "Battery" 
(Grabbing someone when you speak to them/Striking), Assault, Rape, 
Manslaughter & ending at the ultimate; Murder.
     "Theft" includes: Stealing/Burglary/Robbery & Fraud/ Embezzlement/White 
Collar Crime; "Taking something that is not yours to take".
     "Destruction of Property" is "Causing the need of repair/replacement to 
the property     of another, either Personal, Shared or Public.
     These "Rules" appear to be "The Law" in a nutshell.
Rule # 2. -Recognize Law as it is written. Change/Amend/Reform as needed.

     The choices one makes within the legal limits of the "Rules/Law" are 
"Moral & Ethical" standards. "Morals" associated with Religious convictions 
& "Ethics" associated with Business/Fair Play".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                        ISSUES:
      3 issues that "The Civil-American War" represents are easy to 
understand & are based on "Non-Compliance" to the "First Premise & the "Rule 
of Law"".
     Corporate Responsibility.
      The Business Vehicle called a "Corporation" has been granted the 
"Rights" of an "Individual" to facilitate its function as 
Manufacturer/Producer/Employer of goods and services that used to be done by 
"Government" in areas regarding the publics "Right of Use". Transportation & 
Communication are 2 examples.
     The "Limited Responsibility" afforded to the CEO/Administrators of the 
"Corporation" acts to "Distance" the "Direct Responsibility" of the 
CEO/Administrators from having to appear every time a Grievance/Lawsuit 
against them is brought before a "Court of Law". This is akin to the 
"President of the United States" having to appear in "Court" every time the 
"Government" is sued. In both cases, it "Obviously Could" lead to the 
disruption of  "Services Provided" in the "Publics Right of Use" by 
disrupting managements Communication/Decision Making process.  In "No Way" 
does it relieve the "Corporation" from "Any Liability" that it may cause.
     "Fine & or imprisonment".
    The "Corporation" in today's society can be viewed as a "Juggernaut War 
Machine" indiscriminately gobbling up "Sovereign" businesses through 
"Hostile Take Over" with "Monopolistic" intent causing sides to be formed by 
default.  "Neutrality" and the "Better Business Bureau" are good ideas, but 
unrealistic under the circumstances.
     What people want spelled out in "Legal Language" is: If a "Corporation" 
is found to "Know About" and then "Cover Up" safety issues in the "Products 
or Services" they provide and "Death" results due to those safety issues, a 
"REAL HUMAN(s)" will be "FACING THE FAMILY & FRIENDS in a "Court of Law" 
while being tried as an alleged "Criminal" for Negligence/Manslaughter/etc. 
just like an owner/operator or individual would be. The too often, "MONETARY 
COMPENSATION ONLY WITH NO ADMISSION OF GUILT" settlement scenario does not 
satisfy the demands of the "First Premise & the "Rule of Law""
     The Leader of a Country can be tried for "War Crimes" even though 
"Protecting the interests of my citizens" is his defense. Corporation. 
Stockholders?
    VICTIMLESS CRIME: States can't control "Rights" granted a citizen 
through "Prohibition" (by prohibiting them). Personal Drug use, Trading for 
Sex & Gambling are 3 common areas. Regulating (Not in the view of the 
Public, Operating a Motorized Vehicle, Under the age of 18/21, Zoning, etc.) 
is the Maximum Limitation allowed. (See American Civil War).

     DEATH PENALTY/SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES/DETERRENT:
     If you litter, you can go back & pick-up. If you pollute, you can go 
back & clean up. If you steal, you can give back & when you destroy you can 
repair/replace. Some injuries can heal & medical expenses can be paid.
     Killing is the taking of a life. Life is non replaceable. Even if we 
clone that individual, the original "Heart" &  "Soul" is gone forever.
     The "Death Penalty" is "NOT" on the books to be a "Deterrent". When we 
sentence someone to "Death", it is for the "PERSON(s)" they "MURDERED". We 
even say something like "For the crime of murder in the first degree, the 
State sentences you to Death by Lethal Injection/electrocution/Firing 
Squad/etc. We do not say "If it were up to me I'd sentence you to "Life 
Imprisonment Without the Possibility of Parole" but we are making a 
sacrifice/example out of you. Sorry for the heavy-handedness"
    "Special Circumstances" is a "Recent" condition to consider for 
"Sentencing Purposes". Even if we agree that "By taking someone else's life 
you must give up yours in return", the problem with the "Death Penalty" is, 
we have killed "INNOCENT" citizens.  We have proven this. And we can't take 
it back.
      "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" may be enough to take away someone's 
"Liberty" for "Years" to "Life", but the 100% accuracy needed to "Justify" 
Killing in "My" name or "Your" name simply does not exist. A "Civilized" 
society does not gamble with "Non Replaceable" lives.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        THE TAKE OVER OF AMERICA

     The Declaration of  "The Civil-American War" is not "Against" the 
"Current Administration". It is about "Officially Recognizing" the line that 
has been drawn in the sand that represents the differences in the "United 
States" over what our "Basic Rights" are. "Rights" are an "Either/Or" 
proposition. It is about "Legislating" those "Rights" through our only 
"Official" " Congress & Senate" to be enforced by our "Executive Branch" and 
"IF" need be, decided by our "Judicial Branch". The "Battle" is the 
understanding that by accepting (opting in) to the "Rules of Engagement" we 
have limited our "Course of Action", but we "ARE" no less, trying to oust 
from a "Position of Power", "Anyone" (Politician/Moron) who is "Against" the 
successful accomplishment of this goal. Rhetorical Debate is the "Only" way 
to "Prove" the pen is mightier than the sword. A "Bloodless Coup" (A sudden 
shift in Power without disruption) is more along the "Gist" of what it 
means. The outcome of "Life & Death" decisions being made on a daily basis 
in this Country would "Substantially" be different. The shift of time/money 
spent NOT violating (Arresting/Prosecuting under current Law) our "Rights" 
would be "Substantial".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   "SUPPORTING THE WAR EFFORT/SALES PITCH"

     To say your vote doesn't "Directly Elect" the President is a "Fact". 
The tally of the "Electoral Votes" does.  Frankly, it seems pretty 
useless/worthless to make people even count that check/ box/line except:
     "Worth" has a monetary value. If the "Average American" made $30,000 
year for a 50-week, 40hr, 8hr a day job, it comes out to roughly 3 cents a 
minute. A minute is more than enough time to check or write-in a vote for 
the "Presidency"(most choices usually have a "vice" attached to them).
      "Use" has a value. While your "Ballot" vote doesn't "Directly Elect" 
the President, it shows who you "Supported".
     This "Support" can be gauged on a percentage scale in relation to all 
the "Candidates".                      Your "Ballot" vote is also "Done in 
Secret".
     Nobody knows if you "Really" voted for whom you said you would.
      You can write-in A-b-l-e/a-d-a-m-z to show your "Support", no one need 
ever know & "It can't affect the outcome of the election", especially if 
you've voted for some "Crazy Nut/Politician".
     In this age of "The Billionaire", isn't it amazing the "Real" power and 
value "3 Lincoln Head Pennies" still hold? They may not buy you a pack of 
"Life Savers" anymore but they certainly can go a long way toward "Buying" 
the "Forum" for a more level "Playing Field" under the "Rules/Law".
     If you were to give 3 cents to your "Political Party", they wouldn't 
spend the time or effort to hold their hand out for it.
     If you give 3 cents to Able adamz, you would be told, "Save your money, 
it isn't needed. (Campaign Reform?)
      If you give the "Value", "in 3 cents/sense of your time", by writing 
in "Able adamz", on your "American Ballot", "This next Election", you have 
"Officially Recognized" the "Civil-American War" by showing your "Support".  
"Using" your Useless, Worthless, Popular, Throw Away Ballot vote in this 
fashion will bring a "Focus" to "Issues" which admittedly, shouldn't be 
expected to "Shut Down" the daily Administrative Responsibilities in 
carrying out the functions of "Enforcing the Law" the way it is written, but
     The "Urgency" of this Article/Document could be viewed as "Timeless" 
since "This Next Election" is always "Just around the Corner"' but 
"Timeless" it is not.
      "When", not "If", the "Electoral College" process of selecting the 
President is abandoned in favor of "Direct Vote", you will "Never Again" 
have the opportunity to "Use" your vote (For a Leader selected from 
Political Party choice through Proxy- see Politician) to "Focus" on 
unresolved "Issues" that lie in the "Source Code" of our "American Program".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                       PERSPECTIVE
     The above "Grievances" seem to come with a "Resolution" included or 
implied. It is "Disjointed at times. All loose ends have not been tied 
together. Forward-looking statements are minimal. The "forum" for "Issues" 
means "Web Site" for information and stricter "Moderators" in T.V./College 
Rhetorical Debate.  Some sentences could be better understood if they were 
supported by a paragraph and that paragraph by a full chapter.  The use of 
"Without Argument", "Fact", "Prove", "Program", "Definition", "History tells 
us", etc. can all be argued. The reference to "Law" as a "Software Program 
was conveyed, but the difference between "First Premise" and "Source Code" 
need more clarity.  Over all it could be understood by your average 12 year 
old with little help.
     One person can only "Paint a Picture" with words to try and make him 
understood.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SIGNED:
Able adamz
Leader of the Civil-American War-By Default
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.



From ctambour@hotmail.com  Sun Oct 29 05:03:01 2000
From: ctambour@hotmail.com (craig tamboury)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 05:03:01 GMT
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Fwd: Mailman-Developers -- confirmation of subscription -- request 321634
Message-ID: <F310cMvnamiODNFYHpZ00002ca3@hotmail.com>

confirm 321634


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.



From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Mon Oct 30 00:22:57 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:22:57 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my new install...
Message-ID: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>

This is more a cautionary tale then a real problem, but it brings up 
a couple of issues to chew on.

I started having major problems with mailman when I brought 
lists.apple.com live (I'll have more to say about this site later, 
since there are a couple of things I need to look into more fully 
before I core-dump on that install...)

The main problem was that I was getting huge numbers of messages to 
the -admin addresses that were blank. Zero. First, I thought it was a 
corrupted list database. then I thought it was a corrupted request 
database. Then I thought it was a corrupted message in the qfile dir 
that was causing corrupted messages to multiply. Then I didn't know 
what to think, so I just started taking the syste apart piece by 
piece and running qfile messages through ONE AT A TIME to see where 
the probelm came from. My favorite way ot spend a weekend, that's for 
sure... (grin)

End result -- one minor configuration error in the mailer. One of the 
hostnames I use wasn't set up as a local name, so sendmail kept 
erroring out trying to talk to itself in one special case. But the 
bigger issue was -- the system was doing exactly what I told it to do.

I use demime to strip incoming e-mail to the text part. this works 
really pretty well. At some point, however, instead of just attaching 
demime to the posting and -request address, I also added it to the 
admin address.

Most incoming bounces now are in MIME format. End result: they come 
to the -admin address, the mime gets stripped, and an empty message 
results. Since it's no longer a bounce message, it gets sent to the 
admin. load in a fairly dirty subscriber list and start sending 
messages -- and you get 10K blank message in your mailbox in the 
morning.

Cautionary note: after you double-check all your configuration files 
for problems, make syure you double-check all the custom stuff you 
did that you did it right. The "good" thing about this particular 
problem is that while I was busy mailbombing myself and my admins all 
weekend fighting this beast, to the end user, the site worked fine... 
If you HAVE to have problems, problems that arne't visible to the end 
user are preferable...

But it brings up a couple of issues I see with qrunner.

first, it seems like qrunner re-stats the qfiles dir and reloads its 
idea of what needs to be run. This creates a problem when you have 
lots of messages, since it's not processing things FIFO --  I found 
that some older messages were simply NEVER being run, because however 
qrunner was choosing messages out of qfiles, it wasn't choosing them. 
On a busy system, this can be a problem. I suggest instead that 
qrunner start up, grab the list of messages to run, and run them, 
oldest first, then exit. Let the next Qrunner handle what comes in in 
the meantime. That way, things are run more of a FIFO, and you don't 
get into the lost-stepchild queue file problem.

second, qrunner isn't good at letting me know what it's doing. If I'm 
trying to figure out what it's processing, it's not telling me. When 
trying to debug a possible corrupted file, that's a real hassle. It'd 
be nice if it put something in qfiles that told me what fileset it 
was working on, just so I can whack at it if I need to.

all in all, it's been a, um, fun weekend. But I now have demime doing 
what it's supposed to be doing, and it is working a LOT better. And 
it explains (in retrospeect) why, knowing the subscriber lists were 
dirty, I wasn't seeing very many bounces... (grumble. That should 
have been a hint. Hindsight is fun...)

*now* it's stable... (I think)

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From claw@kanga.nu  Mon Oct 30 00:47:11 2000
From: claw@kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:47:11 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my new install...
In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com>
 of "Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:22:57 PST." <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
Message-ID: <29318.972866831@kanga.nu>

On Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:22:57 -0800 
Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> wrote:

> Be just, and fear not.

Sheesh, you're having more fun than I am.  (Very nice job on the
site there BTW)  

Latest status from me on the security stuff -- which happily points
away from Mailman and Python:

I started out by installing a firmware-based watchdog that would
auto-reboot the system when it locked (these are the references to
IPMI and EMP (Intel-specific things) -- basically the mainboard
firmware, running out of ASICs and not off the CPU, will hit the
power reset line if it doesn't get touched every 30 seconds).

I have been driving myself silly trying to figure out what is
causing the instability with Kanga.Nu, and getting nowhere.  There's
36Gig of disk on that box and I've near bit-walked thru every byte
in there.  A few minutes ago I opened a dozen plus terms on the box,
all tailing various logfiles or spinning on displaying various
system stats (mostly /proc stuff), plus an extra term on the
localhost pinging the target to see (nearly) exactly it went down
(if it did).  I then approved two posts for posting on a ~1K member
list.  The posts went thru Mailman, hit the MTA, were fully received
by the MTA, everything was looking normal and the queue runners were
busy delivering copies and every stat and logfile on the system
looked happy.

Then the ping stopped.  Every system stat I was reporting on
(memory, everything) looked good -- but the machine was down.
Reading thru the dozen or so terms and what they were reporting as
of the instant the box died revealed, well, nothing.  Everything
looked very very good -- except for the fact that it was now dead.

A few minutes later, after some time for the EMP watchdog to kick in
(30 seconds), and the longest POST in recorded history (Intel
Nightshade MB has a multi-minute-long POST that cannot be
shortened), back up it popped.

I'm now thinking that I may have bad memory in the box.  Certainly
physical RAM failure on one of the upper sticks could account for
such seemingly spontaneous locks.  

Oh joy.  I just love hardware problems.

-- 
J C Lawrence                                 Home: claw@kanga.nu
---------(*)                               Other: coder@kanga.nu
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/        Keys etc: finger claw@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 30 16:24:57 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:24:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] forwarded message from Guido van Rossum
Message-ID: <14845.41177.597122.785738@anthem.concentric.net>

Return-Path: <python-dev-admin@python.org>
Delivered-To: bwarsaw@mail.wooz.org
Received: from dinsdale.python.org (dinsdale.python.org [132.151.1.21])
	by mail.wooz.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44C7D35C1
	for <barry@wooz.org>; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:40:18 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from dinsdale.python.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by dinsdale.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 66E701D076; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:40:30 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: python-dev@python.org
Received: from cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com (cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com [24.15.191.133])
	by dinsdale.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 4B95B1D145; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:39:18 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com (IDENT:guido@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
	by cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05020;
	Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:42:42 -0500
Message-Id: <200010280142.UAA05020@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com>
Errors-To: python-dev-admin@python.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Help: <mailto:python-dev-request@python.org?subject=help>
List-Post: <mailto:python-dev@python.org>
List-Subscribe: <http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev>,
	<mailto:python-dev-request@python.org?subject=subscribe>
List-Id: Python core developers <python-dev.python.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev>,
	<mailto:python-dev-request@python.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/>
From: Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org>
Sender: python-dev-admin@python.org
To: python-list@python.org (Python mailing list),
	python-announce-list@python.org, python-dev@python.org
Subject: [Python-Dev] PythonLabs Team Moves to Digital Creations
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:42:42 -0500
X-BeenThere: python-dev@python.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6

To all Python users and developers:

Less than half a year ago, I moved with my team to BeOpen.com, in the
hope of finding a new permanent home for Python development.  At
BeOpen, we've done several good things for Python, such as moving the
Python and Jython development process to SourceForge, and the
successful release of Python 2.0.

Unfortunately, BeOpen.com's original plans for PythonLabs didn't work
out as hoped, and we weren't able to reach mutual agreement on
workable alternative plans -- despite trying for months.

I am proud to have found a new home for my entire team: starting
today, Tim Peters, Barry Warsaw, Jeremy Hylton, Fred Drake and myself
are working for Digital Creations.  We will be spending part of our
time on core Python development (including Jython and Mailman) and
part of our time on Python infrastructure improvements that also
benefit Zope.

Python will remain Open Source; Digital Creations has no desire to
monetize or brand the Python language or specific Python
distributions.  All future work we do on Python as Digital Creations
employees will be owned by a non-profit organization yet to be
created.  We think of this new organization as the Python Software
Foundation.  In the meantime (while the PSF is under construction) I
will own such copyrights personally.

We're excited to be working for Digital Creations: they are one of the
oldest companies active in the Python community, one of the companies
most committed to Python, and they have a great product!  Plus, we
know they have deep financial backing.  We trust that Digital
Creations will provide a stable home for Python for many years.

Digital Creations has also offered to take over hosting of the
python.org and starship sites.  On behalf of the Python community,
we're grateful for this support of the two prime community sites for
Python, and we expect to be implementing the transitions shortly.

These are exciting times for the PythonLabs team -- and also for
Python and its community.  Mainstream successes for Python are showing
up everywhere, and we're proud to be a part of such a smart and
friendly community.  A great year lies ahead!

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 30 16:24:57 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:24:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] forwarded message from Guido van Rossum
Message-ID: <14845.41177.597122.785738@anthem.concentric.net>

Return-Path: <python-dev-admin@python.org>
Delivered-To: bwarsaw@mail.wooz.org
Received: from dinsdale.python.org (dinsdale.python.org [132.151.1.21])
	by mail.wooz.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44C7D35C1
	for <barry@wooz.org>; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:40:18 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from dinsdale.python.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by dinsdale.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 66E701D076; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:40:30 -0400 (EDT)
Delivered-To: python-dev@python.org
Received: from cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com (cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com [24.15.191.133])
	by dinsdale.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 4B95B1D145; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:39:18 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com (IDENT:guido@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
	by cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05020;
	Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:42:42 -0500
Message-Id: <200010280142.UAA05020@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com>
Errors-To: python-dev-admin@python.org
Precedence: bulk
List-Help: <mailto:python-dev-request@python.org?subject=help>
List-Post: <mailto:python-dev@python.org>
List-Subscribe: <http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev>,
	<mailto:python-dev-request@python.org?subject=subscribe>
List-Id: Python core developers <python-dev.python.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev>,
	<mailto:python-dev-request@python.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/>
From: Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org>
Sender: python-dev-admin@python.org
To: python-list@python.org (Python mailing list),
	python-announce-list@python.org, python-dev@python.org
Subject: [Python-Dev] PythonLabs Team Moves to Digital Creations
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:42:42 -0500
X-BeenThere: python-dev@python.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6

To all Python users and developers:

Less than half a year ago, I moved with my team to BeOpen.com, in the
hope of finding a new permanent home for Python development.  At
BeOpen, we've done several good things for Python, such as moving the
Python and Jython development process to SourceForge, and the
successful release of Python 2.0.

Unfortunately, BeOpen.com's original plans for PythonLabs didn't work
out as hoped, and we weren't able to reach mutual agreement on
workable alternative plans -- despite trying for months.

I am proud to have found a new home for my entire team: starting
today, Tim Peters, Barry Warsaw, Jeremy Hylton, Fred Drake and myself
are working for Digital Creations.  We will be spending part of our
time on core Python development (including Jython and Mailman) and
part of our time on Python infrastructure improvements that also
benefit Zope.

Python will remain Open Source; Digital Creations has no desire to
monetize or brand the Python language or specific Python
distributions.  All future work we do on Python as Digital Creations
employees will be owned by a non-profit organization yet to be
created.  We think of this new organization as the Python Software
Foundation.  In the meantime (while the PSF is under construction) I
will own such copyrights personally.

We're excited to be working for Digital Creations: they are one of the
oldest companies active in the Python community, one of the companies
most committed to Python, and they have a great product!  Plus, we
know they have deep financial backing.  We trust that Digital
Creations will provide a stable home for Python for many years.

Digital Creations has also offered to take over hosting of the
python.org and starship sites.  On behalf of the Python community,
we're grateful for this support of the two prime community sites for
Python, and we expect to be implementing the transitions shortly.

These are exciting times for the PythonLabs team -- and also for
Python and its community.  Mainstream successes for Python are showing
up everywhere, and we're proud to be a part of such a smart and
friendly community.  A great year lies ahead!

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev

------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users maillist  -  Mailman-Users@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users



From Nigel.Metheringham@VData.co.uk  Mon Oct 30 16:50:31 2000
From: Nigel.Metheringham@VData.co.uk (Nigel Metheringham)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:50:31 +0000
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Feature request - open list with non-member posts marked
Message-ID: <E13qI8l-0007gG-00@rioja.localnet>

This came up on the reiserfs list:-

hans@reiser.to said:
> One other thing we could consider doing is tagging all emails from
> nonsubscribers specially so that people can choose whether to filter
> them out.

Its an interesting idea - an open list but with an additional tag 
(ideally an optional subject munging - except that would tend to 
propagate into future postings from members too - and a header added or 
changed so that filters could recognise it)

[I'm not necessarily hugely keen on this, but its an interesting idea 
which merits further discussion and maybe adding to a future features 
list.

	Nigel.
-- 
[ - Opinions expressed are personal and may not be shared by VData - ]
[ Nigel Metheringham                  Nigel.Metheringham@VData.co.uk ]
[ Phone: +44 1423 850000                         Fax +44 1423 858866 ]




From thomas@xs4all.net  Mon Oct 30 18:20:05 2000
From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 19:20:05 +0100
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] forwarded message from Guido van Rossum (fwd)
Message-ID: <20001030192005.F12812@xs4all.nl>

Anyone else notice something weird about the mail below ? It was sent by
Guido to python-dev, where Barry picked it up from and sent it to both
mailman-developers and mailman-users. I am only subscribed to
mailman-developers, and I got it twice. What's more, the second mail seems
to have gone to mailman-developers *through* mailman-users. Notice the extra
list-sig at the obttom of the mail, and extra [listname] in the subject.

Bug in Mailman ? ;-P

----- Forwarded message from "Barry A. Warsaw" <barry@wooz.org> -----

Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:24:57 -0500 (EST)
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Sender: mailman-developers-admin@python.org
To: catholic.org@catholicnet.org.uk
Cc: mailman-developers@python.org
Cc: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] forwarded message from Guido van Rossum

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:42:42 -0500
From: Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org>
Sender: python-dev-admin@python.org
To: python-list@python.org (Python mailing list),
	python-announce-list@python.org, python-dev@python.org
Subject: [Python-Dev] PythonLabs Team Moves to Digital Creations

To all Python users and developers:

[[ .. snip .. ]]

_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev

------------------------------------------------------
Mailman-Users maillist  -  Mailman-Users@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users


_______________________________________________
Mailman-Developers mailing list
Mailman-Developers@python.org
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Thomas Wouters <thomas@xs4all.net>

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Mon Oct 30 18:55:54 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 10:55:54 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] User feedback on www.lists.apple.com (round one)
Message-ID: <p04330100b6237a83a062@[209.239.169.197]>

it's monday, so users are starting to weigh in on the ugpraded 
server. For the most part, it's pretty positive.

with one exception. they hate the text digest format. And in fact, 
one user pointed out (correctly, it seems) that it's not conformant 
with the digest RFC:

	<http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1153.txt>

Looks like mailman as it's set up doesn't use a conformant separator, 
and doesn't order header lines properly to the RFC.

Also, I've had a number of requests to bump the volume number. That 
one is pretty badly hidden (it seems to be in Mailman/MailList.py). 
That really needs to be made configurable through Defaults.PY, as 
should (IMHO) the  separator (which is hidden in  Handers/ToDigest.py 
as MIME_NONSEPARATOR.

it'd be Really Nice, also, if there were some programmatic way to 
bump the volume, so it could be stuffed into cron and run at 0:00 
1/1/*. And, to be honest, volume numbers need to (eventually) be 
per-list...

These are primarily cosmetic issues, but I really think most of them 
need to be looked at before 2.0 ships. Per-list volumes is beyond the 
scope of this release, but the rest need to be looked at, especally 
since the Mailman digest format breaks everyone's 
digest-auto-processors (and yes, MIME digests are the real answer, 
but not everyone is ready for them yet, and there's no reason to 
arbitrarily break things...0

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 30 20:38:29 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:38:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] User feedback on www.lists.apple.com (round one)
References: <p04330100b6237a83a062@[209.239.169.197]>
Message-ID: <14845.56389.347563.392271@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    CVR> it's monday, so users are starting to weigh in on the
    CVR> ugpraded server. For the most part, it's pretty positive.

Cool!

    CVR> with one exception. they hate the text digest format. And in
    CVR> fact, one user pointed out (correctly, it seems) that it's
    CVR> not conformant with the digest RFC:

    CVR> 	<http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1153.txt>

    CVR> Looks like mailman as it's set up doesn't use a conformant
    CVR> separator, and doesn't order header lines properly to the
    CVR> RFC.

Right on both counts.

    CVR> Also, I've had a number of requests to bump the volume
    CVR> number. That one is pretty badly hidden (it seems to be in
    CVR> Mailman/MailList.py).  That really needs to be made
    CVR> configurable through Defaults.PY, as should (IMHO) the
    CVR> separator (which is hidden in Handers/ToDigest.py as
    CVR> MIME_NONSEPARATOR.

    CVR> it'd be Really Nice, also, if there were some programmatic
    CVR> way to bump the volume, so it could be stuffed into cron and
    CVR> run at 0:00 1/1/*. And, to be honest, volume numbers need to
    CVR> (eventually) be per-list...

Actually, they are per-list.  The attributes are mlist.volume and
mlist.next_digest_number.  It's easier at this point to add a small
cron script to do the bumping, which I've attached below, and will
include in 2.0 final.

As far as fixing the plain text digest format to be RFC 1153
compliant, I agree it should be done.  But to do it right requires
more changes than I'm comfortable with for 2.0 final.  I've put it on
the TODO list and will fix it for 2.1.

[Aside: I use XEmacs/VM as my primary MUA and it groks the plain
digest format just fine, so I've never seen this problem!  Think you
can get all your users to "upgrade" their MUAs? :) ]

-Barry

-------------------- snip snip --------------------cron/bumpdigests
#! /usr/bin/env python
#
# Copyright (C) 1998,1999,2000 by the Free Software Foundation, Inc.
#
# This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
# modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
# as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2
# of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
# 
# This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
# but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
# MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
# GNU General Public License for more details.
# 
# You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
# along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software 
# Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA.

"""Increment the digest volume number and reset the digest number to zero.

Usage: %(PROGRAM)s [options] [listname ...]

Options:

    --help/-h
        Print this message and exit.

The lists named on the command line are bumped.  If no list names are given,
all lists are bumped.
"""

import sys
import getopt

import paths
from Mailman import MailList
from Mailman import Utils
from Mailman import Errors

# Work around known problems with some RedHat cron daemons
import signal
signal.signal(signal.SIGCHLD, signal.SIG_DFL)

PROGRAM = sys.argv[0]



def usage(code, msg=''):
    print __doc__ % globals()
    if msg:
        print msg
    sys.exit(code)



def main():
    try:
        opts, args = getopt.getopt(sys.argv[1:], 'h', ['help'])
    except getopt.error, msg:
        usage(1, msg)

    for opt, arg in opts:
        if opt in ('-h', '--help'):
            usage(0)

    if args:
        listnames = args
    else:
        listnames = Utils.list_names()

    if not listnames:
        print 'Nothing to do.'
        sys.exit(0)

    for listname in listnames:
        try:
            # be sure the list is locked
            mlist = MailList.MailList(listname)
        except Errors.MMListError, e:
            usage(1, 'No such list: %s' % listname)
        try:
            mlist.volume = mlist.volume + 1
            mlist.next_digest_number = 1
        finally:
            mlist.Save()
            mlist.Unlock()



if __name__ == '__main__':
    main()


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 30 20:59:58 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:59:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my new install...
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
Message-ID: <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    CVR> first, it seems like qrunner re-stats the qfiles dir and
    CVR> reloads its idea of what needs to be run.

It shouldn't.  As soon as it enters main(), it does a listdir() of the
qfiles dir.  Once it's processed everything it sees in that listing,
it exits.  qrunner can exit sooner if a few kludgey resource
management parameters are exceeded, but a single invocation of qrunner
should never list the directory a second time.

It /could/ be that if you've just got tons of messages in the queue
and Mailman has a hard time keeping up, files that are unlucky enough
to always show up at the end of the directory listing will never get
processed.
    
    CVR> This creates a problem when you have lots of messages, since
    CVR> it's not processing things FIFO -- I found that some older
    CVR> messages were simply NEVER being run, because however qrunner
    CVR> was choosing messages out of qfiles, it wasn't choosing them.

If you see files that are never getting run, and you don't think
you're seeing problem above, do a dumpdb of the corresponding .db
file.  If you see a `pipeline' entry, say with SMTPDirect in the
pipeline, chances are you're getting errors in that delivery module
and Mailman's keeping it on the queue.  Check logs/smtp for details.

    CVR> second, qrunner isn't good at letting me know what it's
    CVR> doing.

A sin of much of the system currently.  I hope I can revamp and
improve the logging facility for 2.1.

-Barry


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Mon Oct 30 21:04:16 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 13:04:16 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my new
 install...
In-Reply-To: <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]>

At 3:59 PM -0500 10/30/00, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

>It shouldn't.  As soon as it enters main(), it does a listdir() of the
>qfiles dir.  Once it's processed everything it sees in that listing,
>it exits.  qrunner can exit sooner if a few kludgey resource
>management parameters are exceeded, but a single invocation of qrunner
>should never list the directory a second time.
>
>It /could/ be that if you've just got tons of messages in the queue
>and Mailman has a hard time keeping up, files that are unlucky enough
>to always show up at the end of the directory listing will never get
>processed.

Okay, interesting. it sure seemed like stuff was hanging out from run 
to run, but the system was having a few issues at the time, so it 
could have been erro related as well.


>If you see files that are never getting run, and you don't think
>you're seeing problem above, do a dumpdb of the corresponding .db
>file.  If you see a `pipeline' entry, say with SMTPDirect in the
>pipeline, chances are you're getting errors in that delivery module
>and Mailman's keeping it on the queue.  Check logs/smtp for details.

ah, that probably explains it. There were circumstances where the 
SMTP host started rejecting due to load, and those probably cascaded.

That seems to open up mailman to duplicate deliveries, FWIW. I think 
I ran into the same issue here Chris Kolar did...


-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 30 21:11:18 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (barry@wooz.org)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:11:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my new
 install...
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]>
Message-ID: <14845.58358.917069.840811@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    CVR> ah, that probably explains it. There were circumstances where
    CVR> the SMTP host started rejecting due to load, and those
    CVR> probably cascaded.

    CVR> That seems to open up mailman to duplicate deliveries,
    CVR> FWIW. I think I ran into the same issue here Chris Kolar
    CVR> did...

Can you explain in more detail what "SMTP host started rejecting due
to load" means?  Do you mean the socket connect failed, or the SMTP
server returned error codes, or something else.

I ask because I have a simple Python smtpd for testing and if I can
configure it to reproduce exactly the error conditions your seeing
with sendmail, I can try to debug the dups problem.  I'd /really/ like
to do that before 2.0 final goes out, since others are seeing this
problem too (mostly sendmail users it seems though).

Thanks,
-Barry


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Mon Oct 30 21:13:05 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 13:13:05 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] glitch in new bumpdigests tool
Message-ID: <p0433010cb62394ca1d56@[17.216.27.202]>

Barry:


lists.apple.com 249# ~chuq/bumpdigests
Traceback (innermost last):
   File "/export/home/chuq/bumpdigests", line 35, in ?
     import paths
ImportError: No module named paths


-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From ddickey@wamnet.com  Mon Oct 30 21:28:53 2000
From: ddickey@wamnet.com (Dan A. Dickey)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:28:53 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my newinstall...
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]> <14845.58358.917069.840811@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <39FDE815.D5A7C514@wamnet.com>

barry@wooz.org wrote:
> 
> >>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:
> 
>     CVR> ah, that probably explains it. There were circumstances where
>     CVR> the SMTP host started rejecting due to load, and those
>     CVR> probably cascaded.
> 
>     CVR> That seems to open up mailman to duplicate deliveries,
>     CVR> FWIW. I think I ran into the same issue here Chris Kolar
>     CVR> did...
> 
> Can you explain in more detail what "SMTP host started rejecting due
> to load" means?  Do you mean the socket connect failed, or the SMTP
> server returned error codes, or something else.
> 
> I ask because I have a simple Python smtpd for testing and if I can
> configure it to reproduce exactly the error conditions your seeing
> with sendmail, I can try to debug the dups problem.  I'd /really/ like
> to do that before 2.0 final goes out, since others are seeing this
> problem too (mostly sendmail users it seems though).
> 
> Thanks,
> -Barry

I'm not sure if this is relevant or not, but I did report some time
ago a problem in python's smtplib.py that leaked fd's, and brought
about a bug in MailList.py (Mailman 1.1).
As far as I'm aware, this bug was not fixed in Mailman's copy of
smtplib.py,
nor in the new version of Python.  It lost file descriptors when
sendmail
quit accepting connections due to too high of a load.
	-Dan

-- 
Dan A. Dickey
ddickey@wamnet.com


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Mon Oct 30 21:31:19 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 13:31:19 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my newinstall...
In-Reply-To: <39FDE815.D5A7C514@wamnet.com>
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]>
 <14845.58358.917069.840811@anthem.concentric.net>
 <39FDE815.D5A7C514@wamnet.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010eb62399071ccd@[17.216.27.202]>

At 3:28 PM -0600 10/30/00, Dan A. Dickey wrote:
>
>I'm not sure if this is relevant or not, but I did report some time
>ago a problem in python's smtplib.py that leaked fd's, and brought
>about a bug in MailList.py (Mailman 1.1).
>As far as I'm aware, this bug was not fixed in Mailman's copy of
>smtplib.py,
>nor in the new version of Python.  It lost file descriptors when
>sendmail
>quit accepting connections due to too high of a load.
>	-Dan

and when you run out of fd's, you get an error attempting to connect 
and exit. I'll bet that's it, Dan.

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 30 21:34:23 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:34:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] glitch in new bumpdigests tool
References: <p0433010cb62394ca1d56@[17.216.27.202]>
Message-ID: <14845.59743.507124.379121@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    | lists.apple.com 249# ~chuq/bumpdigests
    | Traceback (innermost last):
    |    File "/export/home/chuq/bumpdigests", line 35, in ?
    |      import paths
    | ImportError: No module named paths

Ah sorry.  You need to drop that in $prefix/cron.

-Barry


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Mon Oct 30 21:37:59 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 13:37:59 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] glitch in new bumpdigests tool
In-Reply-To: <14845.59743.507124.379121@anthem.concentric.net>
References: <p0433010cb62394ca1d56@[17.216.27.202]>
 <14845.59743.507124.379121@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <p04330110b6239aa97f73@[17.216.27.202]>

At 4:34 PM -0500 10/30/00, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

>Ah sorry.  You need to drop that in $prefix/cron.

thanks. that did it.

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 30 21:52:39 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (barry@wooz.org)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:52:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my newinstall...
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]>
 <14845.58358.917069.840811@anthem.concentric.net>
 <39FDE815.D5A7C514@wamnet.com>
 <p0433010eb62399071ccd@[17.216.27.202]>
Message-ID: <14845.60839.987095.914578@anthem.concentric.net>

Okay, let me try to reproduce this.  I guess I don't even need my
smtpd.py :)

@anthem[[~/projects/mailman:1073]]% telnet localhost 9999
Trying 127.0.0.1...
telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: Connection refused

-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Mon Oct 30 22:33:04 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (barry@wooz.org)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 17:33:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my newinstall...
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]>
 <14845.58358.917069.840811@anthem.concentric.net>
 <39FDE815.D5A7C514@wamnet.com>
 <p0433010eb62399071ccd@[17.216.27.202]>
Message-ID: <14845.63264.757040.80907@anthem.concentric.net>

I'm still having trouble reproducing dups.  I set SMTPPORT=9999 in
mm_cfg.py, sent a bunch of messages into the system, and manually ran
cron/qrunner a bunch of times.  They all fail as expected (connection
refused), and I see the log messages in smtp/post, exactly as I
expect.  The .db files look right -- they all have entries for
`pipeline' which start with SMTPDirect.py.

I comment out the SMTPPORT, re-run qrunner and all the messages go
through exactly once.

;(

Any other ideas?  Do you see any other relevant messages in any of the
other log files?

-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Tue Oct 31 05:36:58 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 00:36:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Adding elements to config.db
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010270853130.944-100000@apollo.wuacc.edu>
Message-ID: <14846.23162.253433.280661@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "JH" == Joe Hewitt <joe@apollo.wuacc.edu> writes:

    JH> So the question is: can I or should I add new elements like
    JH> username or userrole to config.db?  What are the
    JH> ramifications?

You could, sure.  I think the hardest part will be keeping the various
data structures in sync.  It shouldn't affect Mailman's operation,
except perhaps to slow it down (because there's more data to marshal
and unmarshal).

    JH> And can I define new variables in the needed programs of
    JH> Mailman?

Not sure what you're asking here.  It's easy to add attributes to the
list objects, and Mailman's infrastructure will just happily persist
them.

    JH> I must confess that I'm still using Mailman 1.1. Could I
    JH> address my problem with Mailman 2.x?

Sure, why not?

-Barry


From barry@wooz.org  Tue Oct 31 06:08:40 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 01:08:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Bug in Mailman Beta 6?
References: <20001028202922.A7164@wflin3.asta.uni-wuppertal.de>
 <39FB242A.A820E307@west.sun.com>
Message-ID: <14846.25064.361397.731039@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "DM" == Dan Mick <Dan.Mick@west.sun.com> writes:

    DM> I remember an attempt at a fix, and it looks like your version
    DM> of Bouncer.py is not up-to-date (don't see a version in your
    DM> message).  I think it's fixed.

Yes, it should be fixed in 2.0rc1.

-Barry


From ddickey@wamnet.com  Tue Oct 31 15:50:25 2000
From: ddickey@wamnet.com (Dan A. Dickey)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 09:50:25 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my newinstall...
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]>
 <14845.58358.917069.840811@anthem.concentric.net>
 <39FDE815.D5A7C514@wamnet.com> <p0433010eb62399071ccd@[17.216.27.202]>
Message-ID: <39FEEA41.DD840F34@wamnet.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------3D3D106F4EC8D41A8A1F6716
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Chuq Von Rospach wrote:
> At 3:28 PM -0600 10/30/00, Dan A. Dickey wrote:
> >I'm not sure if this is relevant or not, but I did report some time
> >ago a problem in python's smtplib.py that leaked fd's, and brought
> >about a bug in MailList.py (Mailman 1.1).
> >As far as I'm aware, this bug was not fixed in Mailman's copy of
> >smtplib.py,
> >nor in the new version of Python.  It lost file descriptors when
> >sendmail
> >quit accepting connections due to too high of a load.
> >       -Dan
> 
> and when you run out of fd's, you get an error attempting to connect
> and exit. I'll bet that's it, Dan.

I won't bet on it, but I will go so far as to say it has a possibility.

barry@wooz.org wrote:
> I'm still having trouble reproducing dups.  I set SMTPPORT=9999 in
> mm_cfg.py, sent a bunch of messages into the system, and manually ran
> cron/qrunner a bunch of times.  They all fail as expected (connection
> refused), and I see the log messages in smtp/post, exactly as I
> expect.  The .db files look right -- they all have entries for
> `pipeline' which start with SMTPDirect.py.
> 
> I comment out the SMTPPORT, re-run qrunner and all the messages go
> through exactly once.
> 
> ;(
> 
> Any other ideas?  Do you see any other relevant messages in any of the
> other log files?

Running out of fd's is somewhat of a problem.  It was a bit tricky
to find - since, once you are out of fds - you can't really open up
a file to drop a log message into it.

Bleah.  I was just looking around for my patches so I could attach them,
and I'm sorry for a bit of misinformation - the problem is not in
MailList.py; that was a different change I made to Mailman.
The problem is indeed directly in smtplib.py.
The patch I made to it to fix the fd leak problem is attached.
If this fixes the problem, you win your bet Chuq.  :)
	-Dan

P.S. - Please keep in mind that this patch was against
pythonlibs/smtplib.py
from Mailman 1.1.  I have yet to move up to 2.0 (waiting for it to
become stable).
P.P.S - Yes, this bug and patch needs to get to the Python group.
  Sooner the better I'd say.

-- 
Dan A. Dickey
ddickey@wamnet.com
--------------3D3D106F4EC8D41A8A1F6716
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;
 name="smptlib.fdleak.patch"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="smptlib.fdleak.patch"

*** pythonlib/smtplib.py.orig	Thu Dec  9 08:48:44 1999
--- pythonlib/smtplib.py	Mon Apr 24 10:09:28 2000
***************
*** 213,219 ****
          if not port: port = SMTP_PORT
          self.sock = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
          if self.debuglevel > 0: print 'connect:', (host, port)
!         self.sock.connect(host, port)
          (code,msg)=self.getreply()
          if self.debuglevel >0 : print "connect:", msg
          return (code,msg)
--- 213,224 ----
          if not port: port = SMTP_PORT
          self.sock = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
          if self.debuglevel > 0: print 'connect:', (host, port)
! 	try:
!             self.sock.connect(host, port)
! 	except:
! 	    if self.debuglevel > 0: print 'connect failed, raising sock.error'
! 	    self.close()
! 	    raise socket.error, "connect failed"
          (code,msg)=self.getreply()
          if self.debuglevel >0 : print "connect:", msg
          return (code,msg)

--------------3D3D106F4EC8D41A8A1F6716--



From barry@wooz.org  Tue Oct 31 15:56:58 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (barry@wooz.org)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 10:56:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my newinstall...
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]>
 <14845.58358.917069.840811@anthem.concentric.net>
 <39FDE815.D5A7C514@wamnet.com>
 <p0433010eb62399071ccd@[17.216.27.202]>
 <39FEEA41.DD840F34@wamnet.com>
Message-ID: <14846.60362.67176.863415@anthem.concentric.net>

How about this patch instead?  If it looks good to you, I'll add it to
pythonlib/smtplib.py and upload it to the Python project's patch
manager.

-Barry

-------------------- snip snip --------------------
Index: smtplib.py
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/python/python/dist/src/Lib/smtplib.py,v
retrieving revision 1.29
diff -u -r1.29 smtplib.py
--- smtplib.py	2000/09/01 06:40:07	1.29
+++ smtplib.py	2000/10/31 15:55:51
@@ -214,7 +214,11 @@
         if not port: port = SMTP_PORT
         self.sock = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
         if self.debuglevel > 0: print 'connect:', (host, port)
-        self.sock.connect((host, port))
+        try:
+            self.sock.connect((host, port))
+        except socket.error:
+            self.close()
+            raise
         (code,msg)=self.getreply()
         if self.debuglevel >0 : print "connect:", msg
         return (code,msg)


From ddickey@wamnet.com  Tue Oct 31 16:24:55 2000
From: ddickey@wamnet.com (Dan A. Dickey)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 10:24:55 -0600
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my newinstall...
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]>
 <14845.58358.917069.840811@anthem.concentric.net>
 <39FDE815.D5A7C514@wamnet.com>
 <p0433010eb62399071ccd@[17.216.27.202]>
 <39FEEA41.DD840F34@wamnet.com> <14846.60362.67176.863415@anthem.concentric.net>
Message-ID: <39FEF257.E90796AE@wamnet.com>

barry@wooz.org wrote:
> How about this patch instead?  If it looks good to you, I'll add it to
> pythonlib/smtplib.py and upload it to the Python project's patch
> manager.

Looks good to me.	-Dan

-- 
Dan A. Dickey
ddickey@wamnet.com


From barry@wooz.org  Tue Oct 31 16:40:14 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (barry@wooz.org)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 11:40:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my newinstall...
References: <p04330108b6226c4aed50@[209.239.169.197]>
 <14845.57678.16903.961396@anthem.concentric.net>
 <p0433010bb623924a869c@[17.216.27.202]>
 <14845.58358.917069.840811@anthem.concentric.net>
 <39FDE815.D5A7C514@wamnet.com>
 <p0433010eb62399071ccd@[17.216.27.202]>
 <39FEEA41.DD840F34@wamnet.com>
 <14846.60362.67176.863415@anthem.concentric.net>
 <39FEF257.E90796AE@wamnet.com>
Message-ID: <14846.62958.267146.938544@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "DAD" == Dan A Dickey <ddickey@wamnet.com> writes:

    >> How about this patch instead?  If it looks good to you, I'll
    >> add it to pythonlib/smtplib.py and upload it to the Python
    >> project's patch manager.

    DAD> Looks good to me. -Dan

Cool, done.


From chuqui@plaidworks.com  Tue Oct 31 18:12:19 2000
From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 10:12:19 -0800
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] My admins speak out...
Message-ID: <p04330100b624bba50293@[209.239.169.197]>

Okay, my admins on www.lists.apple.com have had a chance ot dig out 
from the upgrade, and are starting to speak out...

And they ALL want an option to auto-reject mail sent from unsubscribed users.

Barry, can we squeeze something like this into 2.0? (he says, 
doubting it...) technically, it shouldn't be too tough, from a quick 
glance.

-- 
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)

Be just, and fear not.


From barry@wooz.org  Tue Oct 31 22:05:14 2000
From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:05:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] My admins speak out...
References: <p04330100b624bba50293@[209.239.169.197]>
Message-ID: <14847.16922.165312.701739@anthem.concentric.net>

>>>>> "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> writes:

    CVR> Okay, my admins on www.lists.apple.com have had a chance ot
    CVR> dig out from the upgrade, and are starting to speak out...

    CVR> And they ALL want an option to auto-reject mail sent from
    CVR> unsubscribed users.

    CVR> Barry, can we squeeze something like this into 2.0? (he says,
    CVR> doubting it...) technically, it shouldn't be too tough, from
    CVR> a quick glance.

No it shouldn't be too tough, but no it's too late to go into 2.0.
Here's a quick sketch of a hack though (untested).

If you want to make this list-specific, use bin/withlist to set an
attribute on the lists that should have this behavior.  Let's call it
`auto_reject':

-------------------- snip snip --------------------autoreject.py
def autoreject(m):
    m.auto_reject = 1
    m.Save()
-------------------- snip snip --------------------
% python bin/withlist -r autoreject -l mylist


Now, in Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py find the stanza where NonMemberPost
is raised.  Change the hold_for_approval line to something like:

    if getattr(mlist, 'auto_reject', 0):
        raise DiscardMessage
    else:
	hold_for_approval(mlist, msg, msgdata, NonMemberPost)

Doing the GUI is a bit more work, and it would be nice if each of the
hold conditions could be optionally discarded, so that's another
reason to wait and do it right for 2.1.

-Barry


From Dan Mick <Dan.Mick@West.Sun.COM>  Tue Oct 31 23:13:05 2000
From: Dan Mick <Dan.Mick@West.Sun.COM> (Dan Mick)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 15:13:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] My admins speak out...
Message-ID: <200010312311.PAA19920@utopia.west.sun.com>

>     if getattr(mlist, 'auto_reject', 0):
>         raise DiscardMessage

Very nice; had no idea that one little exception is all it
takes.

Is there anything similarly-simple to generate a generic bounce
message and discard, or is that all "call some reply method
and then raise DiscardMessage"?