From gupta.chandan1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 11 10:00:19 2013 From: gupta.chandan1 at gmail.com (Chandan Gupta) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 14:45:19 +0545 Subject: [Idle-dev] joining/contributing to idle development Message-ID: <9A3FFC8918D4474FACE27F671C6BA199@gmail.com> Hello Idle development team, I would like to know how can I start contributing to Idle development ? is it free/open source development project ? I was wondering about few features missing in IDLE and couldn't stop myself to mailing here. I look forward to hearing from you people. Reagrds, -- Chandan Gupta -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.ancel at danfoss.com Tue Mar 19 11:35:14 2013 From: c.ancel at danfoss.com (Ancel Christophe) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 10:35:14 +0000 Subject: [Idle-dev] 2.7.3 IDLE window not in colour Message-ID: Hi, I lost the colors after first Save As of Program. Impossible to get back colors with the Options/IDLE. On a HP computer with Windows 7. Can you help ? Regards, Christophe ANCEL [cid:image003.jpg at 01CE2495.D2701190] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17042 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: From nad at acm.org Thu Mar 21 02:50:03 2013 From: nad at acm.org (Ned Deily) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 18:50:03 -0700 Subject: [Idle-dev] 2.7.3 IDLE window not in colour References: Message-ID: In article , Ancel Christophe wrote: > I lost the colors after first Save As of Program. Impossible to get back > colors with the Options/IDLE. > > On a HP computer with Windows 7. Try saving the file with a .py extension. -- Ned Deily, nad at acm.org From tjreedy at udel.edu Thu Mar 21 10:49:45 2013 From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 05:49:45 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] joining/contributing to idle development In-Reply-To: <9A3FFC8918D4474FACE27F671C6BA199@gmail.com> References: <9A3FFC8918D4474FACE27F671C6BA199@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/11/2013 5:00 AM, Chandan Gupta wrote: > Hello Idle development team, > > I would like to know how can I start contributing to Idle development ? Look as some bits of the Python developer guide. http://docs.python.org/devguide/index.html start by ignoring the stuff about hg and cloning and focus on the stuff about the tracker. Also go to bugs.python.org, get familiar a bit, register. On the search page, selects Components: IDLE, hit return, and look at a few issues. > is it free/open source development project ? Yes. > I was wondering about few features missing in IDLE and couldn't stop > myself to mailing here. You can see is there is already an issue for a feature you are interested in. Either scan the list of titles the above search returned (about 100) or go back and enter a keyword in addition to Components: idle. If you do not see an issue, try discussing here, but be patient. -- Terry Jan Reedy From tjreedy at udel.edu Thu Mar 21 10:50:43 2013 From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 05:50:43 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] 2.7.3 IDLE window not in colour In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/20/2013 9:50 PM, Ned Deily wrote: > In article > , > Ancel Christophe wrote: > >> I lost the colors after first Save As of Program. Impossible to get back >> colors with the Options/IDLE. >> >> On a HP computer with Windows 7. > > Try saving the file with a .py extension. With Python 3.3, the .py is automatic, but not yet in other versions. -- Terry Jan Reedy From katie.fulton at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 15:34:39 2013 From: katie.fulton at gmail.com (Katie Cunningham) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 10:34:39 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves Message-ID: I recently taught a class on Raspberry Pis at PyCon, with IDLE as our IDE. After two days of being immersed in the 2.7 IDLE, I decided that I'd like to join up with the efforts to improve IDLE for earlier versions. Then I got a jerk comment on my blog post about the class. Is that the sort of tone I can expect in this group? Because I'd love to help, but I have zero patience for dealing with that sort of attitude. Katie Cunningham From interstar at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 15:36:21 2013 From: interstar at gmail.com (phil jones) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 11:36:21 -0300 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No, I'd say that's definitely not acceptable in this community. Was it related to this list? phil On 21 March 2013 11:34, Katie Cunningham wrote: > I recently taught a class on Raspberry Pis at PyCon, with IDLE as our > IDE. After two days of being immersed in the 2.7 IDLE, I decided that > I'd like to join up with the efforts to improve IDLE for earlier > versions. > > Then I got a jerk comment on my blog post about the class. > > Is that the sort of tone I can expect in this group? Because I'd love > to help, but I have zero patience for dealing with that sort of > attitude. > > Katie Cunningham > _______________________________________________ > IDLE-dev mailing list > IDLE-dev at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev From katie.fulton at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 15:37:40 2013 From: katie.fulton at gmail.com (Katie Cunningham) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 10:37:40 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It pointed to this list, telling me to join up. Here's the text in full: Too bad people exaggerate like hell -- especially in blog posts ;-). I use IDLE almost daily and it works for me, especially with some of the more recent fixes. I have worked on IDLE issues on and off for over a year. But I have no idea what *you* think is 'broken as hell'. Given your experience teaching with IDLE, I would be very interested in knowing what you think are the top 3 or so outstanding issues. As well as here, you could also post to the idle-dev list, http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev, which is mirrored as gmane.org newsgroup gmane.comp.python.idle. You did not specify which Python version you used, but since 3.3.0 there have been about 30 patches pushed. I hope to see than many again in not too many months. You are welcome to join us to help make that happen. On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 10:36 AM, phil jones wrote: > No, I'd say that's definitely not acceptable in this community. > > Was it related to this list? > > phil > > On 21 March 2013 11:34, Katie Cunningham wrote: >> I recently taught a class on Raspberry Pis at PyCon, with IDLE as our >> IDE. After two days of being immersed in the 2.7 IDLE, I decided that >> I'd like to join up with the efforts to improve IDLE for earlier >> versions. >> >> Then I got a jerk comment on my blog post about the class. >> >> Is that the sort of tone I can expect in this group? Because I'd love >> to help, but I have zero patience for dealing with that sort of >> attitude. >> >> Katie Cunningham >> _______________________________________________ >> IDLE-dev mailing list >> IDLE-dev at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev From rovitotv at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 16:06:00 2013 From: rovitotv at gmail.com (Todd Rovito) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 11:06:00 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Katie, I don't think Terry was being a jerk maybe a bit of a smart butt which I find humorous at times. Of course all of this is subjective but I don't think Terry meant to be a jerk. Please feel free to contribute!!!! We would very much like your input on what you think is broken with IDLE and try to learn from your educational experience at PyCon. Over the last few days we have had some good discussions on the IDLE development process over on python-dev email list. In addition Terry and I put together a PEP a few weeks ago to try and speed up IDLE development (http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0434/). Python has an excellent developers guide (http://docs.python.org/devguide/) to get started. The Python development community is very supportive with a Python mentorship email list (http://pythonmentors.com/) that is very helpful. I hope you will contribute, thanks! On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 10:37 AM, Katie Cunningham wrote: > It pointed to this list, telling me to join up. Here's the text in full: > > Too bad people exaggerate like hell -- especially in blog posts ;-). > > I use IDLE almost daily and it works for me, especially with some of > the more recent fixes. I have worked on IDLE issues on and off for > over a year. But I have no idea what *you* think is 'broken as hell'. > > Given your experience teaching with IDLE, I would be very interested > in knowing what you think are the top 3 or so outstanding issues. As > well as here, you could also post to the idle-dev list, > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev, which is mirrored as > gmane.org newsgroup gmane.comp.python.idle. > > You did not specify which Python version you used, but since 3.3.0 > there have been about 30 patches pushed. I hope to see than many > again in not too many months. You are welcome to join us to help make > that happen. > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 10:36 AM, phil jones wrote: >> No, I'd say that's definitely not acceptable in this community. >> >> Was it related to this list? >> >> phil >> >> On 21 March 2013 11:34, Katie Cunningham wrote: >>> I recently taught a class on Raspberry Pis at PyCon, with IDLE as our >>> IDE. After two days of being immersed in the 2.7 IDLE, I decided that >>> I'd like to join up with the efforts to improve IDLE for earlier >>> versions. >>> >>> Then I got a jerk comment on my blog post about the class. >>> >>> Is that the sort of tone I can expect in this group? Because I'd love >>> to help, but I have zero patience for dealing with that sort of >>> attitude. >>> >>> Katie Cunningham >>> _______________________________________________ >>> IDLE-dev mailing list >>> IDLE-dev at python.org >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev > _______________________________________________ > IDLE-dev mailing list > IDLE-dev at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev From kw at codebykevin.com Thu Mar 21 16:11:27 2013 From: kw at codebykevin.com (Kevin Walzer) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 11:11:27 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514B231F.7010500@codebykevin.com> Hi Katie, On 3/21/13 10:37 AM, Katie Cunningham wrote: > It pointed to this list, telling me to join up. Here's the text in full: > > Too bad people exaggerate like hell -- especially in blog posts ;-). > > I use IDLE almost daily and it works for me, especially with some of > the more recent fixes. I have worked on IDLE issues on and off for > over a year. But I have no idea what *you* think is 'broken as hell'. > > Given your experience teaching with IDLE, I would be very interested > in knowing what you think are the top 3 or so outstanding issues. As > well as here, you could also post to the idle-dev list, > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev, which is mirrored as > gmane.org newsgroup gmane.comp.python.idle. > > You did not specify which Python version you used, but since 3.3.0 > there have been about 30 patches pushed. I hope to see than many > again in not too many months. You are welcome to join us to help make > that happen. I can't speak for the list, but I'll offer my own two cents. I realize that this comment, coming after your enthusiastic discussion of your experience teaching kids at PyCON (what a wonderful thing! good for you!), comes on a sour note. But I'm not quite clear on what in this post constitutes bad behavior, unless it's the mildly sarcastic opening sentence (which echoes your own phrasing). The poster, Terry Reedy (who, I believe, is one of the regular IDLE developers, and thus might take comments that IDLE is "broken as hell" more to heart than most would) disagrees with your characterization, asking you for examples of what you think is broken in IDLE (since your blog post didn't offer any), notes that work is ongoing on IDLE and a lot of bug fixes have been committed, and concludes with a polite invitation to join the IDLE list and contribute. There's been a lot of talk on Twitter and in the blogosphere in recent weeks about examples of overly aggressive, hostile, and even misogynistic comments by some male developers to female developers. Such behavior has no place in the developer world and needs to be called out for the bullshit that it is. But the comment under discussion doesn't strike me as an example of it. (I realize you didn't make an explicit reference to this broader context, but your reference to the commenter being a "jerk" made me wonder. If I'm misreading you here, please accept my apologies in advance.) I hope you decide to stick around and join the list, and also contribute some code. In general the discussions here are very cordial, and it's a supportive community. And those of us who use IDLE (and occasionally contribute patches, etc.) would certainly welcome the help! Best, Kevin -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com From gdsimoes87 at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 16:30:43 2013 From: gdsimoes87 at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Guilherme_Sim=F5es?=) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 12:30:43 -0300 Subject: [Idle-dev] Google Summer of Code Message-ID: Hi, everybody! I am a student at the University of S?o Paulo where I study Pure Mathematics and plan to graduate next year. I have experience in Python and successfully completed MIT's 6.00x course (Introduction to Computer Science and Programming). I am interested in applying for Google Summer of Code this year, but although there is some great projects at the wiki, I want to work on something else. I think IDLE could be improved a lot with some effort (three months of work is sufficient) and I want to try working on that as a project. IDLE is very important in education as a first IDE for thousands of students and it's a shame that it does not do a better job. I wonder if the Python community has any interest in this idea and, if it has, if someone can recommend me a mentor. I sent a similar email to soc2013-general at python.org, but maybe this list is more appropriate for this message. Thanks, Guilherme Sim?es -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tjreedy at udel.edu Fri Mar 22 07:16:12 2013 From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 02:16:12 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/21/2013 10:37 AM, Katie Cunningham wrote: Katie, name-calling, which you did on your blog, and came close to here, is not accepted in the Python development community. You wrote, with respect to IDLE, on a line by itself, without a smiley, with blank lines around it, so no one could miss it, the following. " Too bad it's broke as hell. " http://therealkatie.net/blog/2013/mar/19/pycon-2013-young-coders/ A couple of days ago, a Python developer who strongly dislikes IDLE started a thread on the pydev (Python developer) list which started with quoting the lines before your negative comment and ended with it, leaving out the line after. He went on to say that IDLE is quirky, ugly, badly maintained, useless, a disgrace to Python, and should be quarantined in a separate repository. Others chimed in, like #5 on your blog, 'yeah, IDLE is broken', etcetera, etcetera, and opined that IDLE should not be quarantined but should be removed from Python altogether. Whatever your intent, your comment was used as ammunition to block IDLE improvement, at least for this week. Perhaps you can understand now why I did not think it very funny. ---- Now, what was my supposed crime? First, I parodied your comment. People *do* make exaggerated comments in blogs to get attention. > Too bad people exaggerate like hell -- especially in blog posts ;-). Second, I let you know that I was ignorant of what you might have actually meant, in any detail. > I use IDLE almost daily and it works for me, especially with some of > the more recent fixes. I have worked on IDLE issues on and off for > over a year. But I have no idea what *you* think is 'broken as hell'. Third, I invited you here to enlighten me as to your priorities for improving IDLE. There are numerous IDLE issue I could work on. I gave you a chance to influence my priorities. Let me ask it differently. Based on your experience, what IDLE issue most gets in the way of kids just starting out with IDLE and Python? > Given your experience teaching with IDLE, I would be very interested > in knowing what you think are the top 3 or so outstanding issues. As > well as here, you could also post to the idle-dev list, > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev, which is mirrored as > gmane.org newsgroup gmane.comp.python.idle. Fourth, I let you know that IDLE has been actively improved, and hopefully will be again, which means a) that any released version you might be using is obsolete* and b) that 'soon' will be is a good time for others to join in on improving it. > You did not specify which Python version you used, but since 3.3.0 > there have been about 30 patches pushed. I hope to see than many > again in not too many months. You are welcome to join us to help make > that happen. * You said on your blog 2.7, which was last released as 2.7.3 last April. That means it does not have the fix I committed last summer to fix the problem of IDLE sometimes crashing when one typed '('. That was broken. I would even agree with 'broken as hell' with respect to that particular issue. The fix should be in the 2.7.4 release in about a week. -- Terry Jan Reedy From katie.fulton at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 12:16:06 2013 From: katie.fulton at gmail.com (Katie Cunningham) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 07:16:06 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So... wait. Before we continue: You're angry because someone used a line on my blog to state his dissatisfaction with IDLE? I'm to blame for starting a conversation about IDLE's issues? Fair or not, the impression I get from most of the people I talk to is that they believe IDLE is an abandoned project. When I tell other Python developers that I use IDLE to teach, they look concerned and list off other tools I should be using instead. Perhaps that's not fair. Perhaps it's a problem of outreach, and letting people know that IDLE is still being worked upon. You didn't lose a week to me making a snarky comment. You lost a week because people really, truly think that nothing is happening in the IDLE world, and many are embarrassed by it. On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 2:16 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: > On 3/21/2013 10:37 AM, Katie Cunningham wrote: > > Katie, name-calling, which you did on your blog, and came close to here, is > not accepted in the Python development community. > > You wrote, with respect to IDLE, on a line by itself, without a smiley, with > blank lines around it, so no one could miss it, the following. > " > > Too bad it's broke as hell. > > " > http://therealkatie.net/blog/2013/mar/19/pycon-2013-young-coders/ > > A couple of days ago, a Python developer who strongly dislikes IDLE started > a thread on the pydev (Python developer) list which started with quoting the > lines before your negative comment and ended with it, leaving out the line > after. He went on to say that IDLE is quirky, ugly, badly maintained, > useless, a disgrace to Python, and should be quarantined in a separate > repository. Others chimed in, like #5 on your blog, 'yeah, IDLE is broken', > etcetera, etcetera, and opined that IDLE should not be quarantined but > should be removed from Python altogether. > > Whatever your intent, your comment was used as ammunition to block IDLE > improvement, at least for this week. Perhaps you can understand now why I > did not think it very funny. > > ---- > Now, what was my supposed crime? > > First, I parodied your comment. People *do* make exaggerated comments in > blogs to get attention. > > >> Too bad people exaggerate like hell -- especially in blog posts ;-). > > > Second, I let you know that I was ignorant of what you might have actually > meant, in any detail. > > >> I use IDLE almost daily and it works for me, especially with some of >> the more recent fixes. I have worked on IDLE issues on and off for >> over a year. But I have no idea what *you* think is 'broken as hell'. > > > Third, I invited you here to enlighten me as to your priorities for > improving IDLE. There are numerous IDLE issue I could work on. I gave you a > chance to influence my priorities. Let me ask it differently. Based on your > experience, what IDLE issue most gets in the way of kids just starting out > with IDLE and Python? > > >> Given your experience teaching with IDLE, I would be very interested >> in knowing what you think are the top 3 or so outstanding issues. As >> well as here, you could also post to the idle-dev list, >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev, which is mirrored as >> gmane.org newsgroup gmane.comp.python.idle. > > > Fourth, I let you know that IDLE has been actively improved, and hopefully > will be again, which means a) that any released version you might be using > is obsolete* and b) that 'soon' will be is a good time for others to join in > on improving it. > > >> You did not specify which Python version you used, but since 3.3.0 >> there have been about 30 patches pushed. I hope to see than many >> again in not too many months. You are welcome to join us to help make >> that happen. > > > * You said on your blog 2.7, which was last released as 2.7.3 last April. > That means it does not have the fix I committed last summer to fix the > problem of IDLE sometimes crashing when one typed '('. That was broken. I > would even agree with 'broken as hell' with respect to that particular > issue. The fix should be in the 2.7.4 release in about a week. > > -- > Terry Jan Reedy > > > _______________________________________________ > IDLE-dev mailing list > IDLE-dev at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev From katie.fulton at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 13:46:08 2013 From: katie.fulton at gmail.com (Katie Cunningham) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 08:46:08 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> Message-ID: Thank you, Doug! Is there any sort of design documentation around IDLE? Because that might be a great place to start. Perhaps there are a few simple things we can tweak that will make the shell more shell-like, including key bindings and more color schemes (a suggestion someone else made that I love). I'd love to see more people talking about IDLE in a positive way. Katie On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Douglas S. Blank wrote: > Hello everyone! > > As someone who cares deeply both about open source software and getting > more diverse groups of people into computing, I appreciate the details of > unfolding story. First, I think that we call all agree on a few points: > > * all software can be made better > * open source software is put together by volunteers > * there aren't enough female voices in this community > * diversity is a good thing---it allows us to see issues from other > perspectives > * we all want a good IDE for Python > > If I can jump in, I'd like to suggest that we all now work on a way forward. > > 1. Are IDLE sources on github? That would make it easy to fork and fix. > 2. Perhaps IDLE could use a steering committee, composed of people from > all walks of life > 3. Perhaps IDLE will not satisfy all these groups of users. What then? > Options? Let 1000 IDLE's bloom? > 4. Is the design of IDLE correct? Or is a reboot in order? > > I very much appreciate everyone's honest discussion so far, and hope that > we can work out the issues---a similar situation occurred at PyCon > (perhaps not ironically) [1], but I hope that we can work out the problems > in a constructive way here. > > Thanks! > > -Doug > > [1] - > http://venturebeat.com/2013/03/21/breaking-adria-richards-fired-by-sendgrid-for-outting-developers-on-twitter/ > > -- > Douglas S. Blank > Associate Professor, Computer Science, Bryn Mawr College > http://cs.brynmawr.edu/~dblank (610)526-6501 > From katie.fulton at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 14:45:04 2013 From: katie.fulton at gmail.com (Katie Cunningham) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 09:45:04 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> Message-ID: Neat project! Do we have an actual UX or design person in the group? Because if we don't, getting one may help us frame some of these questions. On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Douglas S. Blank wrote: >> Thank you, Doug! >> >> Is there any sort of design documentation around IDLE? Because that >> might be a great place to start. Perhaps there are a few simple things >> we can tweak that will make the shell more shell-like, including key >> bindings and more color schemes (a suggestion someone else made that I >> love). I'd love to see more people talking about IDLE in a positive >> way. >> >> Katie > > You're welcome! And to keep the ball rolling on IDLE design, I'll admit > that I have been working on an IDLE-inspired IDE. Here is a screenshot: > > http://calicoproject.org/Image:CalicoWindow.gif > > (Calico isn't completely compatible with regular, old Python, as the goals > of the system are a little different than IDLE's. For example, Calico > supports a number of other languages in the Shell, including Scheme, > Basic, Logo, and allows the languages to interoperate.) > > I mention this only because we have wrestled with the question: what would > be better than IDLE?, and this is what we came up with so far. It has > tabs, and a single window; It doesn't run Python in a separate process; > color syntax highlighting; some support for tab-completion. > > But we believe in the IDLE Philosophy... our version: keep it simple, but > allow it to "scale-up pedagogically". (But we do have built-in chat, and > many other education-only features, so it isn't as simple as IDLE). > > -Doug > > >> On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Douglas S. Blank >> wrote: >>> Hello everyone! >>> >>> As someone who cares deeply both about open source software and getting >>> more diverse groups of people into computing, I appreciate the details >>> of >>> unfolding story. First, I think that we call all agree on a few points: >>> >>> * all software can be made better >>> * open source software is put together by volunteers >>> * there aren't enough female voices in this community >>> * diversity is a good thing---it allows us to see issues from other >>> perspectives >>> * we all want a good IDE for Python >>> >>> If I can jump in, I'd like to suggest that we all now work on a way >>> forward. >>> >>> 1. Are IDLE sources on github? That would make it easy to fork and fix. >>> 2. Perhaps IDLE could use a steering committee, composed of people from >>> all walks of life >>> 3. Perhaps IDLE will not satisfy all these groups of users. What then? >>> Options? Let 1000 IDLE's bloom? >>> 4. Is the design of IDLE correct? Or is a reboot in order? >>> >>> I very much appreciate everyone's honest discussion so far, and hope >>> that >>> we can work out the issues---a similar situation occurred at PyCon >>> (perhaps not ironically) [1], but I hope that we can work out the >>> problems >>> in a constructive way here. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> -Doug >>> >>> [1] - >>> http://venturebeat.com/2013/03/21/breaking-adria-richards-fired-by-sendgrid-for-outting-developers-on-twitter/ >>> >>> -- >>> Douglas S. Blank >>> Associate Professor, Computer Science, Bryn Mawr College >>> http://cs.brynmawr.edu/~dblank (610)526-6501 >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> IDLE-dev mailing list >> IDLE-dev at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev >> From kw at codebykevin.com Fri Mar 22 15:01:15 2013 From: kw at codebykevin.com (Kevin Walzer) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 10:01:15 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> Message-ID: <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> On 3/22/13 9:45 AM, Katie Cunningham wrote: > Neat project! > > Do we have an actual UX or design person in the group? Because if we > don't, getting one may help us frame some of these questions. I don't think so. This community mainly attracts developers, not UX specialists or designers. I'm curious about the purpose of "re-envisioning" IDLE. It has always been adequate for my needs--a simple IDE. The Python shell is useful for working out snippets of code, and the text editor is workable enough for me. While bugs do crop up from time to time, they are usually fixed--fixed faster if one is able to contribute a patch, as I do when I'm able. But I don't consider IDLE in any way "broken": what leads you to such a conclusion? --Kevin -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com From katie.fulton at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 15:09:54 2013 From: katie.fulton at gmail.com (Katie Cunningham) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 10:09:54 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> Message-ID: You'd be surprised re: designers and UX. There's quite a few in the Python community, but many assume that they have nothing to give to core. I'd love to pull some of them in! As for IDLE, some of my problems stem from having a shell-like environment that doesn't act like a shell. Up arrow moves my cursor? I get history through clicking? Why does the Python shell have dots to indicate a block, but IDLE doesn't? Also, parts of the interface don't seem to scale well as you change the font size. I think we need to step away from a few people that say 'it works for me' and ask 'how can we make it work for the community?' On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Kevin Walzer wrote: > On 3/22/13 9:45 AM, Katie Cunningham wrote: >> >> Neat project! >> >> Do we have an actual UX or design person in the group? Because if we >> don't, getting one may help us frame some of these questions. > > > I don't think so. This community mainly attracts developers, not UX > specialists or designers. > > I'm curious about the purpose of "re-envisioning" IDLE. It has always been > adequate for my needs--a simple IDE. The Python shell is useful for working > out snippets of code, and the text editor is workable enough for me. While > bugs do crop up from time to time, they are usually fixed--fixed faster if > one is able to contribute a patch, as I do when I'm able. > > But I don't consider IDLE in any way "broken": what leads you to such a > conclusion? > > --Kevin > > > -- > Kevin Walzer > Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin > http://www.codebykevin.com > http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com > _______________________________________________ > IDLE-dev mailing list > IDLE-dev at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev From kw at codebykevin.com Fri Mar 22 15:26:43 2013 From: kw at codebykevin.com (Kevin Walzer) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 10:26:43 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> Message-ID: <514C6A23.1050105@codebykevin.com> On 3/22/13 10:09 AM, Katie Cunningham wrote: > You'd be surprised re: designers and UX. There's quite a few in the > Python community, but many assume that they have nothing to give to > core. I'd love to pull some of them in! OK, seems like a worthy goal. This question is motivated by genuine curiosity: what do UX specialists do, exactly? What are their skill sets? Do they code, do they prototype stuff in Photoshop, etc? What can they contribute to Python development? My experience with UX specialists/designer is limited to using open-source icon sets in my apps, so I don't know much about the work UX specialists do, and would like to learn more. > As for IDLE, some of my problems stem from having a shell-like > environment that doesn't act like a shell. Up arrow moves my cursor? I > get history through clicking? Why does the Python shell have dots to > indicate a block, but IDLE doesn't? Also, parts of the interface don't > seem to scale well as you change the font size. "Up arrow moves cursor": that's the expected behavior of the Tk text widget on which IDLE is based. I for one would find it very jarring to see this behavior changed. > > I think we need to step away from a few people that say 'it works for > me' and ask 'how can we make it work for the community?' Before we can do that, however, we need to agree on what the problems are. You consider the behavior of the up arrow in IDLE a bug; I consider it a feature. Another logistical problem to be aware of: if IDLE is to be kept in the core, then any revisions to it must be based on its current UI toolkit, Tkinter. IDLE inherits a lot of Tkinter's default behaviors. Changing IDLE's GUI library would be an entirely different conversation (one that crops up annually on c.l.py, it seems). If you move IDLE outside the core or fork it, then you have a lot more freedom to experiment. Of course, my own preferences may not be representative of everyone's, and I'm certainly not going to have sour grapes if a consensus emerges to overhaul IDLE in these directions. I always have Emacs to fall back on. :-) --Kevin -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com From katie.fulton at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 15:34:47 2013 From: katie.fulton at gmail.com (Katie Cunningham) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 10:34:47 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: <514C6A23.1050105@codebykevin.com> References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514C6A23.1050105@codebykevin.com> Message-ID: UX people help make apps more intuitive by thinking about a user is experiencing an application. What are their assumptions? What do they notice? How do they explore the application? How is information grouped in the interface? Some are also designers, but a fair number are also developers. I'm a version of a UX person (I do accessibility work), but I mostly sling code for a living. I've also known a few who only do UX. "Up arrow moves cursor" has confused every Python developer I've put IDLE in front of. It might be time to rethinking including it, or at least letting us have options for the different behaviors. I would be much more likely to open IDLE if it mimicked my shell more. A good place to start might be taking the average Python developer and investigating what they expect from something like IDLE and moving from there. On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Kevin Walzer wrote: > On 3/22/13 10:09 AM, Katie Cunningham wrote: >> >> You'd be surprised re: designers and UX. There's quite a few in the >> Python community, but many assume that they have nothing to give to >> core. I'd love to pull some of them in! > > > OK, seems like a worthy goal. > > This question is motivated by genuine curiosity: what do UX specialists do, > exactly? What are their skill sets? Do they code, do they prototype stuff in > Photoshop, etc? What can they contribute to Python development? > > My experience with UX specialists/designer is limited to using open-source > icon sets in my apps, so I don't know much about the work UX specialists do, > and would like to learn more. > > >> As for IDLE, some of my problems stem from having a shell-like >> environment that doesn't act like a shell. Up arrow moves my cursor? I >> get history through clicking? Why does the Python shell have dots to >> indicate a block, but IDLE doesn't? Also, parts of the interface don't >> seem to scale well as you change the font size. > > > "Up arrow moves cursor": that's the expected behavior of the Tk text widget > on which IDLE is based. I for one would find it very jarring to see this > behavior changed. > > >> >> I think we need to step away from a few people that say 'it works for >> me' and ask 'how can we make it work for the community?' > > > Before we can do that, however, we need to agree on what the problems are. > You consider the behavior of the up arrow in IDLE a bug; I consider it a > feature. > > Another logistical problem to be aware of: if IDLE is to be kept in the > core, then any revisions to it must be based on its current UI toolkit, > Tkinter. IDLE inherits a lot of Tkinter's default behaviors. Changing IDLE's > GUI library would be an entirely different conversation (one that crops up > annually on c.l.py, it seems). If you move IDLE outside the core or fork it, > then you have a lot more freedom to experiment. > > Of course, my own preferences may not be representative of everyone's, and > I'm certainly not going to have sour grapes if a consensus emerges to > overhaul IDLE in these directions. I always have Emacs to fall back on. :-) > > > --Kevin > > -- > Kevin Walzer > Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin > http://www.codebykevin.com > http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com From kw at codebykevin.com Fri Mar 22 15:42:10 2013 From: kw at codebykevin.com (Kevin Walzer) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 10:42:10 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514C6A23.1050105@codebykevin.com> Message-ID: <514C6DC2.3090303@codebykevin.com> On 3/22/13 10:34 AM, Katie Cunningham wrote: > UX people help make apps more intuitive by thinking about a user is > experiencing an application. What are their assumptions? What do they > notice? How do they explore the application? How is information > grouped in the interface? > > Some are also designers, but a fair number are also developers. I'm a > version of a UX person (I do accessibility work), but I mostly sling > code for a living. I've also known a few who only do UX. Thank you for clarifying this. That helps. K -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com From guido at python.org Fri Mar 22 15:44:32 2013 From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 07:44:32 -0700 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514C6A23.1050105@codebykevin.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 7:34 AM, Katie Cunningham wrote: > UX people help make apps more intuitive by thinking about a user is > experiencing an application. What are their assumptions? What do they > notice? How do they explore the application? How is information > grouped in the interface? > > Some are also designers, but a fair number are also developers. I'm a > version of a UX person (I do accessibility work), but I mostly sling > code for a living. I've also known a few who only do UX. > I've worked with many such people during my career. Some are very good and can make a huge difference for a product. > "Up arrow moves cursor" has confused every Python developer I've put > IDLE in front of. It might be time to rethinking including it, or at > least letting us have options for the different behaviors. I would be > much more likely to open IDLE if it mimicked my shell more. > I agree. I am probably to blame for the original behavior -- I am using the shell in Emacs a lot, where up arrow does what it does in IDLE, and you use Meta-P (I think, only my fingers know it :-) instead. But the shell behavior in a regular terminal window is probably more familiar at this point. We constrain the Tk text widget in various ways, so if we can do this Id say go for it. -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sdaniels at submitnet.net Fri Mar 22 15:52:58 2013 From: sdaniels at submitnet.net (Scott Daniels) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 07:52:58 -0700 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> Message-ID: <514C704A.3000609@submitnet.net> On 03/22/2013 07:09 AM, Katie Cunningham wrote: > Why does the Python shell have dots to indicate a block, but IDLE doesn't? When you cut a portion of the block, you can paste it directly (without having to edit out dots). -Scott From gdsimoes87 at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 15:59:08 2013 From: gdsimoes87 at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Guilherme_Sim=F5es?=) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 11:59:08 -0300 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: <514C704A.3000609@submitnet.net> References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514C704A.3000609@submitnet.net> Message-ID: 2013/3/22 Scott Daniels > > Why does the Python shell have dots to indicate a block, but IDLE doesn't? >> > When you cut a portion of the block, you can paste it directly (without > having to edit out dots). > > Maybe paste should be smart enough to automatically remove the dots. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From katie.fulton at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 16:00:04 2013 From: katie.fulton at gmail.com (Katie Cunningham) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 11:00:04 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514C704A.3000609@submitnet.net> Message-ID: It seems like that should be doable (and would be a feature OVER the shell) Also, thank you, Guido, for weighing in! On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 10:59 AM, Guilherme Sim?es wrote: > > > > 2013/3/22 Scott Daniels >> >> >>> Why does the Python shell have dots to indicate a block, but IDLE >>> doesn't? >> >> When you cut a portion of the block, you can paste it directly (without >> having to edit out dots). >> > > > Maybe paste should be smart enough to automatically remove the dots. > > _______________________________________________ > IDLE-dev mailing list > IDLE-dev at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev > From forman.simon at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 19:23:29 2013 From: forman.simon at gmail.com (Simon Forman) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 11:23:29 -0700 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> Message-ID: On 3/22/13, Katie Cunningham wrote: > You'd be surprised re: designers and UX. There's quite a few in the > Python community, but many assume that they have nothing to give to > core. I'd love to pull some of them in! > > As for IDLE, some of my problems stem from having a shell-like > environment that doesn't act like a shell. Up arrow moves my cursor? I > get history through clicking? Why does the Python shell have dots to > indicate a block, but IDLE doesn't? Also, parts of the interface don't > seem to scale well as you change the font size. > > I think we need to step away from a few people that say 'it works for > me' and ask 'how can we make it work for the community?' > In the my-two-cents dept. I've used IDLE professionally for about a decade. It has it's warts and bugs but it beats e.g. Eclipse for my purposes. However... One of the biggest things you (meaning me) get used to is the fact that the "shell" is just a thin layer over a Tk Text widget, and not a proper shell at all. I find when I need "heavy-duty" shell stuff I drop down to IPython in a real terminal. There was some idea of integrating IPython with IDLE at some point but I don't know the details or history. Certainly having a more shell-like shell is a very worthy goal in my opinion. :) What I'd really like to see though (and would be able to contribute to) would be making the internals of IDLE into more of an educational, uh, project. What I mean is, wouldn't it be great if we could use IDLE itself to learn about writing good Python programs? It's the sort of project that many budding hackers cut teeth on: a text editor with programming support. Not only could IDLE serve as a model code project, but this would make it easier to modify and play with the way it works. Warm regards all, ~Simon -- "The history of mankind for the last four centuries is rather like that of an imprisoned sleeper, stirring clumsily and uneasily while the prison that restrains and shelters him catches fire, not waking but incorporating the crackling and warmth of the fire with ancient and incongruous dreams, than like that of a man consciously awake to danger and opportunity." --H. P. Wells, "A Short History of the World" From sdaniels at submitnet.net Fri Mar 22 19:59:22 2013 From: sdaniels at submitnet.net (Scott Daniels) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 11:59:22 -0700 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> Message-ID: <514CAA0A.3080405@submitnet.net> On 03/22/2013 11:23 AM, Simon Forman wrote: > What I'd really like to see though (and would be able to contribute > to) would be making the internals of IDLE into more of an educational, > uh, project. What I mean is, wouldn't it be great if we could use IDLE > itself to learn about writing good Python programs? Here, here. Find ways to pull design components out of the core and make them pluggable. The goal would be to use data-driven displays, so that A user could save (and easily share) their color/font schemes. From katie.fulton at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 20:00:54 2013 From: katie.fulton at gmail.com (Katie Cunningham) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 15:00:54 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: <514CAA0A.3080405@submitnet.net> References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514CAA0A.3080405@submitnet.net> Message-ID: I'd love to see this as an educational project! Does anyone else here besides me blog? It could be an interesting way to: - Expose the process of working in an existing project - Demystify committing to core - Promote IDLE - Get feedback from the community On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 2:59 PM, Scott Daniels wrote: > On 03/22/2013 11:23 AM, Simon Forman wrote: >> >> What I'd really like to see though (and would be able to contribute to) >> would be making the internals of IDLE into more of an educational, uh, >> project. What I mean is, wouldn't it be great if we could use IDLE itself to >> learn about writing good Python programs? > > Here, here. Find ways to pull design components out of the core and make > them pluggable. > The goal would be to use data-driven displays, so that A user could save > (and easily share) their color/font schemes. > > > _______________________________________________ > IDLE-dev mailing list > IDLE-dev at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev From Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu Fri Mar 22 16:46:50 2013 From: Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu (Bruce Sherwood) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 09:46:50 -0600 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514C704A.3000609@submitnet.net> Message-ID: Pardon my obtuseness, but I don't understand what the issue is concerning "up arrow moves cursor". The behavior of up arrow looks the same to me in IDLE, Eclipse, Word, and Notepad++, though I don't use Emacs. Bruce Sherwood -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From katie.fulton at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 20:37:13 2013 From: katie.fulton at gmail.com (Katie Cunningham) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 15:37:13 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514C704A.3000609@submitnet.net> Message-ID: This is in the shell environment. If you're in the Python shell, generally the up arrow gives you your history, which is convenient for those of us that are butterfingers (or who want to experiment). In the text editor, 'up' should still move the cursor up. On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Bruce Sherwood wrote: > Pardon my obtuseness, but I don't understand what the issue is concerning > "up arrow moves cursor". The behavior of up arrow looks the same to me in > IDLE, Eclipse, Word, and Notepad++, though I don't use Emacs. > > Bruce Sherwood > > _______________________________________________ > IDLE-dev mailing list > IDLE-dev at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev > From guido at python.org Fri Mar 22 20:37:40 2013 From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 12:37:40 -0700 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514C704A.3000609@submitnet.net> Message-ID: It's what up arrow does in a terminal window when using shell or Python (with readline support enabled). The IDLE interactive session resembles this context more than it resembles an editable text window. On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Bruce Sherwood wrote: > Pardon my obtuseness, but I don't understand what the issue is concerning > "up arrow moves cursor". The behavior of up arrow looks the same to me in > IDLE, Eclipse, Word, and Notepad++, though I don't use Emacs. > > Bruce Sherwood > > _______________________________________________ > IDLE-dev mailing list > IDLE-dev at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev > -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) From felix at traction.de Fri Mar 22 21:07:42 2013 From: felix at traction.de (Felix Tendler) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 21:07:42 +0100 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514C6A23.1050105@codebykevin.com> Message-ID: <514CBA0E.4040103@traction.de> On 22.03.2013 15:44, Guido van Rossum wrote: > > "Up arrow moves cursor" has confused every Python developer I've put > IDLE in front of. It might be time to rethinking including it, or at > least letting us have options for the different behaviors. I would be > much more likely to open IDLE if it mimicked my shell more. > > > I agree. I am probably to blame for the original behavior -- I am > using the shell in Emacs a lot, where up arrow does what it does in > IDLE, and you use Meta-P (I think, only my fingers know it :-) > instead. But the shell behavior in a regular terminal window is > probably more familiar at this point. When I first used IDLE these two things drove me mad. Somehow I was too lazy to change it and got used to it. Now I can not live without this behavior. Alt-p and alt-n for previous/next command is so much more comfy because you do not have to move all the way to the up arrow key. And there is a perfect use for "Up arrow moves cursor": after an error go two (or more, depending on the level) lines up and activate "goto file/line" via a hotkey. There is no faster way to go to the source of a problem. I made an idleX extension but had no luck getting it on the idleX site so far: http://ehc.ac/p/idlex/discussion/general/thread/b238d358/ And the moral of the story: please make any changes to the work flow optional! Felix -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From guido at python.org Fri Mar 22 21:16:09 2013 From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 13:16:09 -0700 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: <514CBA0E.4040103@traction.de> References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514C6A23.1050105@codebykevin.com> <514CBA0E.4040103@traction.de> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Felix Tendler wrote: > And the moral of the story: please make any changes to the work flow > optional! "Every change breaks someone's workflow." http://xkcd.com/1172/ -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) From rovitotv at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 21:21:17 2013 From: rovitotv at gmail.com (Todd Rovito) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 16:21:17 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514C704A.3000609@submitnet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 3:37 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: > It's what up arrow does in a terminal window when using shell or > Python (with readline support enabled). The IDLE interactive session > resembles this context more than it resembles an editable text window. > > On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Bruce Sherwood wrote: >> Pardon my obtuseness, but I don't understand what the issue is concerning >> "up arrow moves cursor". The behavior of up arrow looks the same to me in >> IDLE, Eclipse, Word, and Notepad++, though I don't use Emacs. FYI....the issue about the arrow keys in IDLE shell is actually in the bug tracker and even has a patch. http://bugs.python.org/issue2704 I have not personally tested the patch but it was created by Roger Serwy which means their is a high probability it is a high quality patch. So if people want this functionality we should test it and provide feedback on the issue tracker. Now that Roger has commit privileges he can commit it once he knows that it has been tested by multiple people on multiple platforms. Note that Roger's patch is an extension which means it can be turned on or off based on people's preference. This bug provides a great example many of the issues that IDLE has actually have a patch in the issue tracker but nobody has actually committed them for various reasons. In fact the issue above has been in the issue tracker since 2008! My hope is that the renewed interest in IDLE over the last few days can inspire several people to simply test these patches and provide feedback to the Python core developers to be committed then the issues can be put to bed. From Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu Fri Mar 22 21:35:35 2013 From: Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu (Bruce Sherwood) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 14:35:35 -0600 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514CAA0A.3080405@submitnet.net> Message-ID: (Thanks, Katie and Guido, for explaining about up arrow referring to the shell.) I've been busy with other matters during the last few years, so the following concerns about IDLE development may, I hope, no longer be a problem. In the Google Summer of Code 2009 I mentored Guilherme Polo, who made a number of very important contributions to IDLE. This was a project approved by the Python community, and there were assurances that Polo's improvements would become part of the IDLE distributed with official downloads of Python. Alas, as far as I can tell this didn't happen, apparently because there was no well-defined path for updating IDLE. So my first concern is whether it is now the case that if important improvements are made, is there any chance they would make it into the official Python distributions. What is the situation today? Secondly, to check on the current status, I just installed Python 3.3.0 on Windows and Mac and tried out IDLE. On Windows, judging from the "Configure IDLE" menu option, IDLE apparently lacks (at least) two significant features of Polo's work, one vitally important for a large population of student users. On the Mac, clicking on the Preferences menu option (for configuring IDLE) causes a crash, but I assume the situation is similar to that on Windows. Among many improvements, Polo implemented a feature that if there is an execution error in a spawned program that creates a window, the shell with the error message comes forward of that window so that you see the error, with an IDLE preference for invoking this behavior. The shell does come in front of the edit window in the case of an execution error, but at least in older versions of IDLE if running the program creates a new window, and that window covers the shell window, an execution error doesn't bring the shell window forward. I couldn't immediately think of a way to test this in a newly installed Python 3.3.0, but unless this behavior is now the default and therefore there's no need for a preference setting, presumably this feature isn't in the currently distributed IDLE. Why is this feature important? Every year thousands of engineering and science students who take the required college introductory physics course and use the textbook "Matter and Interactions" (matterandinteractions,org) write Python programs to model physical systems, using the VPython 3D programming environment (vpython.org). Very few of these college students have ever written a computer program before, and the language (Python), the 3D aspects (VPython), and the program editor (IDLE) must be extraordinarily easy to learn and use, because in a physics course, where computational modeling is vitally important, it isn't feasible to teach a lot of computer science. It is an experimental fact of life that these students typically make all of the relevant windows, including the 3D graphics window (based on OpenGL), huge. When an execution error occurs, the program of course stops, and the students tend to sit there wondering why the animation has stopped, because the shell window with its error message is hidden behind the graphics window. After 12 years deployment of VPython, I can say that it's easier to improve IDLE than to modify student behavior. Incidentally, VPython is downloaded about 60,000 times per year, and about 10,000 of those downloads occur at the start of the two US college semesters, clearly by students who use VPython in their classes. VPython is also used by researchers who need an easy programmatic access to making 3D animations. For a recent example, see http://astronomia.udea.edu.co/ chelyabinsk-meteoroid/ I'll mention that the shell is irrelevant for the students, except of course for print outputs and error messages. The students are writing full programs in the edit window (with preferences set to bring up an edit window, not a shell window). Another significant feature of Polo's work that still hasn't made it into IDLE is the preference option to permit not having to save the program at all, something that makes a surprisingly big difference for experimentation. Programmers who like playing experimenting in the shell have the luxury of just typing and running, but programmers who like writing short full programs in the edit window and hitting F5 to run are inconveniently interrupted by the current IDLE in being required to save the program somewhere, which interrupts the train of thought. Polo added a preference to IDLE to permit running without ever saving the program (with of course a warning if you kill the editor without saving). Because I considered these improvements and various bug fixes carried out by Polo to be so important, yet there seemed to be no way to get IDLE updated, starting in 2009 I reluctantly have included his work under the name of VIDLE (VPython version of IDLE) within the VPython installers. Stepping up a level, it's preaching to the choir in this forum, but removing IDLE (with or without improvements) is a terrible idea. Expert programmers could care less, because they'll use Eclipse or Emacs or even vi. It's really really important that upon installing Python you can start work immediately with a good colorizing editor, even if you're a complete novice. Bruce P.S. A couple of related news items: Assisted by Steve Spicklemire, I've made a major change in the architecture of VPython so that it is now based on wxPython, the cross-platform GUI library. This has made it possible to eliminate almost all of the old platform-dependent code, which was written in C++, and replace it with pure Python code. Among many other advantages, this makes it possible for VPython to run on 64-bit Mac Python, where VPython must necessarily be based on Cocoa, whereas VPython had been based on Carbon. Unfortunately the Python 3.x version of wxPython ("Phoenix") isn't quite ready for prime time, so the new version of VPython is currently available only for Python 2.7. Also, inspired by the easy-to-use VPython API, which has made it feasible for programming novices to write Python programs that generate real-time navigable 3D animations, with David Scherer I created GlowScript ( glowscript.org) which runs in a browser using WebGL, with programs written in JavaScript or CoffeeScript. There's a Python program that helps convert a VPython program to a GlowScript program. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interstar at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 00:20:05 2013 From: interstar at gmail.com (phil jones) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 20:20:05 -0300 Subject: [Idle-dev] IDLE Dev 2013 Message-ID: Hmmm ... this all sounds distinctly deja vu ... if I understand correctly, the curse and blessing of IDLE is that it's part of the official Python distribution and so you have to become a "python developer" to engage with it. What, I think, most enthusiastic newcomers like Katie are looking for is something like "the IDLE project" with its own repository (preferably git, because that's what people use these days), easy forking / merging. A dedicated responsible team for IDLE etc. We've had IDLEfork, we've had VIDLE, IDLEx and as Bruce points out, things never seem to get back into the official Python-bundled version of IDLE. Maybe as Todd points out, that's because not enough volunteers offer to test. But I'd like to raise the suggestion that the biggest problem with IDLE is still the development workflow itself. If it's not broke, at least it's not up to the expectations of today's developers. I remember being surprised that IDLE lacks a developers' front-page of the kind that something like Github gives you. (Eg. see this thread from 2011 : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/idle-dev/2011-December/003105.html ). To quote Roger Serwy : > The IDLE code is included with the standard library. It can be found in the Mercurial repository referenced at http://docs.python.org/devguide/ > I agree that the wiki should include this information. Indeed ... er .. what wiki? And notice that that link makes no reference at all to IDLE. Nor does http://docs.python.org/devguide/faq.html. While http://docs.python.org/2/library/idle.html still has no information for developers. I'd suggest that someone who wants to look at the IDLE source and potentially tinker with it doesn't want to have to check out the whole Python source. Or search through documentation that seems to be about something completely different. We need an IDLE project, with a "getting started for IDLE developers" page. And an address (The idle-python and python-idle domains are available in all com, org and net variants - I'm happy to buy one and donate to the project if that will help.) This is not about quarantining IDLE or removing it from the standard distro. It's about giving it an identity that people can engage with rather than it being hidden within the rest of the python. I know it's easy to criticise from the side-lines and the core volunteer developers are busy. But I'd bet that if the little energy that was available for IDLE was focussed initially on making the project more accessible and friendly to potential new developers / testers, I think the effort would pay back. Phil BTW : I take Terry's point (http://mail.python.org/pipermail/idle-dev/2011-December/003109.html) that versions of IDLE need to be locked to versions of Python. But it seems to me you could still ensure that, while giving IDLE its own repository. Eg. just use a "branch" of the IDLE repo for each version of Python. Sure, someone would still have to test that version XYZ branch 2.75 of IDLE still worked with python 2.75, but at least everyone else working on On 22 March 2013 17:35, Bruce Sherwood wrote: > (Thanks, Katie and Guido, for explaining about up arrow referring to the > shell.) > > I've been busy with other matters during the last few years, so the > following concerns about IDLE development may, I hope, no longer be a > problem. > > In the Google Summer of Code 2009 I mentored Guilherme Polo, who made a > number of very important contributions to IDLE. This was a project approved > by the Python community, and there were assurances that Polo's improvements > would become part of the IDLE distributed with official downloads of Python. > Alas, as far as I can tell this didn't happen, apparently because there was > no well-defined path for updating IDLE. So my first concern is whether it is > now the case that if important improvements are made, is there any chance > they would make it into the official Python distributions. What is the > situation today? > > Secondly, to check on the current status, I just installed Python 3.3.0 on > Windows and Mac and tried out IDLE. On Windows, judging from the "Configure > IDLE" menu option, IDLE apparently lacks (at least) two significant features > of Polo's work, one vitally important for a large population of student > users. On the Mac, clicking on the Preferences menu option (for configuring > IDLE) causes a crash, but I assume the situation is similar to that on > Windows. > > Among many improvements, Polo implemented a feature that if there is an > execution error in a spawned program that creates a window, the shell with > the error message comes forward of that window so that you see the error, > with an IDLE preference for invoking this behavior. The shell does come in > front of the edit window in the case of an execution error, but at least in > older versions of IDLE if running the program creates a new window, and that > window covers the shell window, an execution error doesn't bring the shell > window forward. I couldn't immediately think of a way to test this in a > newly installed Python 3.3.0, but unless this behavior is now the default > and therefore there's no need for a preference setting, presumably this > feature isn't in the currently distributed IDLE. > > Why is this feature important? Every year thousands of engineering and > science students who take the required college introductory physics course > and use the textbook "Matter and Interactions" (matterandinteractions,org) > write Python programs to model physical systems, using the VPython 3D > programming environment (vpython.org). Very few of these college students > have ever written a computer program before, and the language (Python), the > 3D aspects (VPython), and the program editor (IDLE) must be extraordinarily > easy to learn and use, because in a physics course, where computational > modeling is vitally important, it isn't feasible to teach a lot of computer > science. > > It is an experimental fact of life that these students typically make all of > the relevant windows, including the 3D graphics window (based on OpenGL), > huge. When an execution error occurs, the program of course stops, and the > students tend to sit there wondering why the animation has stopped, because > the shell window with its error message is hidden behind the graphics > window. After 12 years deployment of VPython, I can say that it's easier to > improve IDLE than to modify student behavior. > > Incidentally, VPython is downloaded about 60,000 times per year, and about > 10,000 of those downloads occur at the start of the two US college > semesters, clearly by students who use VPython in their classes. VPython is > also used by researchers who need an easy programmatic access to making 3D > animations. For a recent example, see > http://astronomia.udea.edu.co/chelyabinsk-meteoroid/ > > I'll mention that the shell is irrelevant for the students, except of course > for print outputs and error messages. The students are writing full programs > in the edit window (with preferences set to bring up an edit window, not a > shell window). > > Another significant feature of Polo's work that still hasn't made it into > IDLE is the preference option to permit not having to save the program at > all, something that makes a surprisingly big difference for experimentation. > Programmers who like playing experimenting in the shell have the luxury of > just typing and running, but programmers who like writing short full > programs in the edit window and hitting F5 to run are inconveniently > interrupted by the current IDLE in being required to save the program > somewhere, which interrupts the train of thought. Polo added a preference to > IDLE to permit running without ever saving the program (with of course a > warning if you kill the editor without saving). > > Because I considered these improvements and various bug fixes carried out by > Polo to be so important, yet there seemed to be no way to get IDLE updated, > starting in 2009 I reluctantly have included his work under the name of > VIDLE (VPython version of IDLE) within the VPython installers. > > Stepping up a level, it's preaching to the choir in this forum, but removing > IDLE (with or without improvements) is a terrible idea. Expert programmers > could care less, because they'll use Eclipse or Emacs or even vi. It's > really really important that upon installing Python you can start work > immediately with a good colorizing editor, even if you're a complete novice. > > Bruce > > P.S. A couple of related news items: Assisted by Steve Spicklemire, I've > made a major change in the architecture of VPython so that it is now based > on wxPython, the cross-platform GUI library. This has made it possible to > eliminate almost all of the old platform-dependent code, which was written > in C++, and replace it with pure Python code. Among many other advantages, > this makes it possible for VPython to run on 64-bit Mac Python, where > VPython must necessarily be based on Cocoa, whereas VPython had been based > on Carbon. Unfortunately the Python 3.x version of wxPython ("Phoenix") > isn't quite ready for prime time, so the new version of VPython is currently > available only for Python 2.7. > > Also, inspired by the easy-to-use VPython API, which has made it feasible > for programming novices to write Python programs that generate real-time > navigable 3D animations, with David Scherer I created GlowScript > (glowscript.org) which runs in a browser using WebGL, with programs written > in JavaScript or CoffeeScript. There's a Python program that helps convert a > VPython program to a GlowScript program. > > _______________________________________________ > IDLE-dev mailing list > IDLE-dev at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev > From rovitotv at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 04:33:24 2013 From: rovitotv at gmail.com (Todd Rovito) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 23:33:24 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514C6A23.1050105@codebykevin.com> Message-ID: Katie and Guido, On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote: > On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 7:34 AM, Katie Cunningham > wrote: >> "Up arrow moves cursor" has confused every Python developer I've put >> IDLE in front of. It might be time to rethinking including it, or at >> least letting us have options for the different behaviors. I would be >> much more likely to open IDLE if it mimicked my shell more. > > > I agree. I am probably to blame for the original behavior -- I am using the > shell in Emacs a lot, where up arrow does what it does in IDLE, and you use > Meta-P (I think, only my fingers know it :-) instead. But the shell behavior > in a regular terminal window is probably more familiar at this point. > > We constrain the Tk text widget in various ways, so if we can do this Id say > go for it. As I mentioned earlier in the day issue 2704 had a almost ready to go patch for Python 3.4: http://bugs.python.org/issue2704 I made three minor changes to it and now I have a nice IDLE shell (as Katie had described) that allows me to use the arrow keys and Meta-P/Meta-N!!!! In addition you can turn off the extension via the options menu then use the arrow keys to move around the shell. This gives us the best of both worlds and is simply brilliant. Roger Serwy had done the heavy lifting with the original extension which was added three years ago! So far I have only tested on Mac OS X and with Python 3.4 the more people we get to test the issue the higher probability a Python core developers will make the commit. From katie.fulton at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 17:18:42 2013 From: katie.fulton at gmail.com (Katie Cunningham) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:18:42 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514C6A23.1050105@codebykevin.com> Message-ID: Is there any way that we can get this functionality into a 2.7 build as well? Most of the books out there for teaching Python (for ill or good) are still under 2.7+. That change sounds great, though! I'll have to check it out on my other machines. I have Mint 11 and Windows 7 / 8 rolling around here. I'll get my Ubuntu updated as well. I've had a few designers/UX people contact me about wanting to pitch in and take a look at the interface (Julia Elman and Kenneth Love). Not bad for a tweet late on a Friday! On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Todd Rovito wrote: > Katie and Guido, > > On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote: >> On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 7:34 AM, Katie Cunningham >> wrote: >>> "Up arrow moves cursor" has confused every Python developer I've put >>> IDLE in front of. It might be time to rethinking including it, or at >>> least letting us have options for the different behaviors. I would be >>> much more likely to open IDLE if it mimicked my shell more. >> >> >> I agree. I am probably to blame for the original behavior -- I am using the >> shell in Emacs a lot, where up arrow does what it does in IDLE, and you use >> Meta-P (I think, only my fingers know it :-) instead. But the shell behavior >> in a regular terminal window is probably more familiar at this point. >> >> We constrain the Tk text widget in various ways, so if we can do this Id say >> go for it. > As I mentioned earlier in the day issue 2704 had a almost ready to go > patch for Python 3.4: > http://bugs.python.org/issue2704 > > I made three minor changes to it and now I have a nice IDLE shell (as > Katie had described) that allows me to use the arrow keys and > Meta-P/Meta-N!!!! In addition you can turn off the extension via the > options menu then use the arrow keys to move around the shell. This > gives us the best of both worlds and is simply brilliant. Roger Serwy > had done the heavy lifting with the original extension which was added > three years ago! So far I have only tested on Mac OS X and with > Python 3.4 the more people we get to test the issue the higher > probability a Python core developers will make the commit. From rovitotv at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 18:54:26 2013 From: rovitotv at gmail.com (Todd Rovito) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 13:54:26 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514C6A23.1050105@codebykevin.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Katie Cunningham wrote: > Is there any way that we can get this functionality into a 2.7 build > as well? Most of the books out there for teaching Python (for ill or > good) are still under 2.7+. That change sounds great, though! I'll > have to check it out on my other machines. I have Mint 11 and Windows > 7 / 8 rolling around here. I'll get my Ubuntu updated as well. I just tested the patch on 2.7 with Mac OS X and it works great with no changes. Testing on Windows would be a big help because I try to stay away from Windows as I am a Unix super freak. I do have Windows but it makes me shudder just to boot it up :-) Additionally I will add to the patch changes needed to update the documentation. The Python 3.4 documentation for IDLE is now synced for the time being between the IDLE's web page and IDLE's help file but that is not the case for Python 2.7 :-( All we can do is upload the patch and test it on all the major platforms but actually convincing a Python core developer to make the commit is always the challenge especially with Python 2.7 because generally it only gets bug fixes. Terry Reedy and I created PEP-434 (Python Enhancement Proposal) in an attempt to get "Enhancement Exception for All Branches" for IDLE. I feel like the PEP is close to approval. Please feel free to provide feedback on PEP-434!!!! PEP-434 is here: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0434/ We updated PEP-434 recently to reflect some comments from this thread and another thread about IDLE on Python-dev so watch for updates. > I've had a few designers/UX people contact me about wanting to pitch > in and take a look at the interface (Julia Elman and Kenneth Love). > Not bad for a tweet late on a Friday! The more help the better that is for sure!!!! I especially have no designer/UX skills so I would appreciate it the help. Thanks! From francismb at email.de Sun Mar 24 18:56:27 2013 From: francismb at email.de (francis) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 18:56:27 +0100 Subject: [Idle-dev] PEP 434 IDLE Enhancement Exception for All Branches Message-ID: <514F3E4B.7020006@email.de> Hi all, I've just checked the PEP 434, here my 2 cents: From reading the PEP is not clear to me how far the backporting relaxation on applying enhancements can go (2.7, 2.6, ??). I thing there's a small typo: [...] So if we were to adopt the 'code = doc' --> philosopy <-- in the absence of detailed [?] Regards, Francis From rovitotv at gmail.com Sun Mar 24 22:25:00 2013 From: rovitotv at gmail.com (Todd Rovito) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 17:25:00 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] PEP 434 IDLE Enhancement Exception for All Branches In-Reply-To: <514F3E4B.7020006@email.de> References: <514F3E4B.7020006@email.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 1:56 PM, francis wrote: > Hi all, > I've just checked the PEP 434, here my 2 cents: Francis, Thanks for the excellent feedback! > From reading the PEP is not clear to me how far the backporting relaxation > on applying enhancements can go (2.7, 2.6, ??). When we wrote the PEP we didn't want to mention any specific version because version numbers will change in the future. The title of the PEP does state "IDLE Enhancement Exception for all Branches" but it is up the author and core developers to make those back ported patches. I personally don't think people will go further back than 2.7 but if the PEP gets accepted then it would be possible to go back as far as the author wants too. > I thing there's a small typo: > [...] So if we were to adopt the 'code = doc' --> philosopy <-- in the > absence of detailed [?] Thanks for the typo correction!!!! From ether.joe at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 00:29:53 2013 From: ether.joe at gmail.com (Sean Felipe Wolfe) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 16:29:53 -0700 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514C6A23.1050105@codebykevin.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 10:54 AM, Todd Rovito wrote: > Terry Reedy and > I created PEP-434 (Python Enhancement Proposal) in an attempt to get > "Enhancement Exception for All Branches" for IDLE. I feel like the > PEP is close to approval. Please feel free to provide feedback on > PEP-434!!!! PEP-434 is here: > http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0434/ > > We updated PEP-434 recently to reflect some comments from this thread > and another thread about IDLE on Python-dev so watch for updates. Todd, when you ask for feedback on the PEP, is there a feedback/voting mechanism we can use? Should I login and place a vote somewhere? Or were you talking about feedback in email form on this list? Forgive me I am a bit of a noob :P From rovitotv at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 01:47:56 2013 From: rovitotv at gmail.com (Todd Rovito) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 20:47:56 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514C6A23.1050105@codebykevin.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Sean Felipe Wolfe wrote: > Todd, when you ask for feedback on the PEP, is there a feedback/voting > mechanism we can use? Should I login and place a vote somewhere? Or > were you talking about feedback in email form on this list? Email feedback please via the list, then myself or Terry takes that feedback and creates another version of the PEP. The PEP process is explained in here http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0001. For all things Python Guido van Rossum is the final decision maker. But since Mr. van Rossum is often busy a pep can have a BDFL-Delegate for this case it is Mr. Nick Coghlan. The process is outlined here http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0001/#pep-review-resolution. > Forgive me I am a bit of a noob :P No problem I am fairly new to the process myself. Thanks for your input I appreciate it! From tjreedy at udel.edu Tue Mar 26 22:21:05 2013 From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 17:21:05 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514CAA0A.3080405@submitnet.net> Message-ID: On 3/22/2013 4:35 PM, Bruce Sherwood wrote: > On the Mac, clicking on the Preferences > menu option (for configuring IDLE) causes a crash, Fixed last October, http://bugs.python.org/issue15853 > but I assume the situation is similar to that on Windows. I am not sure what you mean. The above issue was mac only. > Among many improvements, Polo implemented a feature that if there is an > execution error in a spawned program that creates a window, the shell > with the error message comes forward of that window so that you see the > error, with an IDLE preference for invoking this behavior. The shell > does come in front of the edit window in the case of an execution error, > but at least in older versions of IDLE if running the program creates a > new window, and that window covers the shell window, an execution error > doesn't bring the shell window forward. I couldn't immediately think of > a way to test this in a newly installed Python 3.3.0, but unless this > behavior is now the default and therefore there's no need for a > preference setting, presumably this feature isn't in the currently > distributed IDLE. Did G.Polo ever attach a patch to an issue? I do not remember seeing one like this.. > Another significant feature of Polo's work that still hasn't made it > into IDLE is the preference option to permit not having to save the > program at all, something that makes a surprisingly big difference for > experimentation. Programs have to be saved in something the user process can read. The issue is making this automatic if one wishes. There is already an option to autosave after saving a file once. I use a 'tem.py' file in my miscellaneous python scripts directory. Since I use it often, it is usually near the top of the 'Recent files' list, making it almost as easy to open as a new file. So I never see anything about saving unless I decide to SaveAs. With that trick, I effectively have the nosave edit, run, view output cycle already. I agree, it is very nice. gpolo is nosy on 59 closed issues, 31 open issues. I did not see any about running without explicit saving. > Because I considered these improvements and various bug fixes carried > out by Polo to be so important, yet there seemed to be no way to get > IDLE updated, starting in 2009 ... I think 2009 is about when Kurt Kaiser tapered off his IDLE work. 30 patches were pushed from last October to January. IDLE work is currently frozen waiting for PEP434 to be accepted. If and when it is, I will start committing and pushing more patches. -- Terry Jan Reedy From tjreedy at udel.edu Tue Mar 26 22:26:39 2013 From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 17:26:39 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] PEP 434 IDLE Enhancement Exception for All Branches In-Reply-To: <514F3E4B.7020006@email.de> References: <514F3E4B.7020006@email.de> Message-ID: On 3/24/2013 1:56 PM, francis wrote: > From reading the PEP is not clear to me how far the backporting > relaxation on applying enhancements can go (2.7, 2.6, ??). Only to versions in normal maintenance bugfix mode -- 2.7 and 3.3 -- and the one future version -- 3.4. Anything older either gets security fixes only or no fixes. > I thing there's a small typo: > [...] So if we were to adopt the 'code = doc' --> philosopy <-- in the > absence of detailed [?] That should get fixed. -- Terry Jan Reedy From ggpolo at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 23:15:39 2013 From: ggpolo at gmail.com (Guilherme Polo) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 19:15:39 -0300 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> <514C642B.6030506@codebykevin.com> <514CAA0A.3080405@submitnet.net> Message-ID: Hello, 2013/3/26 Terry Reedy : > On 3/22/2013 4:35 PM, Bruce Sherwood wrote: > >> On the Mac, clicking on the Preferences >> menu option (for configuring IDLE) causes a crash, > > > Fixed last October, http://bugs.python.org/issue15853 > > >> but I assume the situation is similar to that on Windows. > > I am not sure what you mean. The above issue was mac only. > Please note that Bruce is talking about much earlier patches, adjustments, etc. The fact that the same issue was (possibly) posted as a dupe last year is highlighting the fact that IDLE is lacking attention, and this is known for a long time already. > >> Among many improvements, Polo implemented a feature that if there is an >> execution error in a spawned program that creates a window, the shell >> with the error message comes forward of that window so that you see the >> error, >> ... > > > Did G.Polo ever attach a patch to an issue? I do not remember seeing one > like this.. > I sincerely no longer remember if such ticket was created in bugs.python.org. There was another site, which is offline (for some time) now, that contained and tracked all the relevant fixes, improvements, etc. I believe most of them were simultaneously added in bugs.python.org, but the new features were not. The reasoning for that was very simple: not even relevant bug fixes were being commited, so we decided that new features would attract even less interest since they were likely to introduce more bugs. Note that I could have committed the patches myself, I believe I still can if no one revoked my committer access. But I had some very bad experience with other committer(s) pointing out my name for problems unrelated to what I was committing, and that was largely the reason I lost interest in committing anything. By the way, Martin von L?wis is an exceptional opposite example of that, and I feel bad for basically abandoning IDLE after his support. > >> Another significant feature of Polo's work that still hasn't made it >> into IDLE is the preference option to permit not having to save the >> program at all, something that makes a surprisingly big difference for >> experimentation. > > > Programs have to be saved in something the user process can read. The issue > is making this automatic if one wishes. There is already an option to > autosave after saving a file once. I use a 'tem.py' file in my miscellaneous > python scripts directory. Since I use it often, it is usually near the top > of the 'Recent files' list, making it almost as easy to open as a new file. > So I never see anything about saving unless I decide to SaveAs. With that > trick, I effectively have the nosave edit, run, view output cycle already. I > agree, it is very nice. > > gpolo is nosy on 59 closed issues, 31 open issues. I did not see any about > running without explicit saving. This is in the bag of the "new features", which most likely were not included in bugs.python.org for the previous reasons. > >> Because I considered these improvements and various bug fixes carried >> out by Polo to be so important, yet there seemed to be no way to get >> IDLE updated, starting in 2009 ... > > > I think 2009 is about when Kurt Kaiser tapered off his IDLE work. 30 patches > were pushed from last October to January. IDLE work is currently frozen > waiting for PEP434 to be accepted. If and when it is, I will start > committing and pushing more patches. > > -- > Terry Jan Reedy > -- -- Guilherme H. Polo Goncalves From mynamehere42 at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 03:33:08 2013 From: mynamehere42 at gmail.com (Sarah) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 22:33:08 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] Idle test suite Message-ID: <51525A64.4010700@gmail.com> Hi there! Could someone tell me if there's an Idle test suite and, if so, how I would go about running it? I've written a patch and want to test it. Thanks! -Sarah From roger.serwy at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 03:41:40 2013 From: roger.serwy at gmail.com (Roger Serwy) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 21:41:40 -0500 Subject: [Idle-dev] Idle test suite In-Reply-To: <51525A64.4010700@gmail.com> References: <51525A64.4010700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51525C64.6020106@gmail.com> Hi Sarah, At present there are no formal unit tests for IDLE. There is an open issue about unit testing that can be found here: http://bugs.python.org/issue15392 What does your patch do? There might be an open issue that could use it, or you might be able to open a new issue and submit your patch. - Roger On 03/26/2013 09:33 PM, Sarah wrote: > Hi there! > > Could someone tell me if there's an Idle test suite and, if so, how I > would go about running it? > > I've written a patch and want to test it. > > Thanks! > -Sarah > _______________________________________________ > IDLE-dev mailing list > IDLE-dev at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev From roger.serwy at gmail.com Fri Mar 29 04:51:46 2013 From: roger.serwy at gmail.com (Roger Serwy) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 22:51:46 -0500 Subject: [Idle-dev] A plan to fix IDLE while waiting for PEP434 Message-ID: <51550FD2.6060402@gmail.com> Hi Everyone, There are 107 open issues against IDLE presently in the bug tracker. Here is a list of 31 issues that deal with actual bugs in IDLE. These are not enhancements, new features, user-interface annoyances, or anything requiring a change to how the user interacts with IDLE (with the arguable exceptions of 14105 and 14146). Let's fix these issues while we wait on PEP434. We still need a unit test framework for IDLE as listed in 15392. Full unit testing would require a significant refactoring of parts of IDLE. I am willing to accept extensive manual testing for an issue as sufficient reason to apply a patch, but if a very simple test can be written then let's write it with the hope of later incorporating it into a framework. Here are some simple problems to fix: 5492 Error on leaving IDLE with quit() or exit() under Linux 6649 idlelib/rpc.py missing exit status on exithook 6698 IDLE no longer opens only an edit window when configured to do so 8900 IDLE crashes if Preference set to At Startup -> Open Edit Window 13179 IDLE uses common tkinter variables across all editor windows 13495 IDLE: Regressions - Two ColorDelegator instances loaded and -e no longer edits new files. 14254 IDLE - shell restart during readline does not reset readline 16655 IDLE list.append calltips test failures 16887 IDLE - tabify/untabify applied when clicking Cancel Debugger issues: 14105 Breakpoints in debug lost if line is inserted; IDLE 14146 IDLE: source line in editor doesn't highlight when debugging 15347 IDLE - does not close if the debugger was active 15348 IDLE - shell becomes unresponsive if debugger windows is closed while active. Calltip issues: 7883 CallTips.py _find_constructor does not work 16630 IDLE: Calltip fails if __getattr__ raises exception Keybinding issues: 4765 IDLE fails to "Delete Custom Key Set" properly 6092 IDLE: Changed Shortcuts don't show up in menu 6739 IDLE window won't start or show up after assgining new key in options v2.5.2 and 3.1.1 11437 IDLE crash on startup with typo in config-keys.cfg 12387 IDLE save keyboard shortcut problem 1080387 Making IDLE Themes and Keys Config more Robust File Completion issues: 14937 IDLE's deficiency in the completion of file names (Python 32, Windows XP) 16198 IDLE - tabbing in a string always brings up file completion window sys.stderr == None errors: 12274 "Print window" menu on IDLE aborts whole application 13582 IDLE and pythonw.exe stderr problem 14576 IDLE: closes when writing warnings on Windows 15363 Idle/tkinter ~x.py 'save as' fails. closes idle Others: 8231 Unable to run IDLE without write-access to config directory 14440 Close background process if IDLE closes abnormally. 15862 IDLE not working when due to wrong Hard Drive point of os.path.expanduser 17224 can not open idle in python 2.7.3 Let's do this. - Roger From rovitotv at gmail.com Fri Mar 29 06:14:20 2013 From: rovitotv at gmail.com (Todd V Rovito) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 01:14:20 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] A plan to fix IDLE while waiting for PEP434 In-Reply-To: <51550FD2.6060402@gmail.com> References: <51550FD2.6060402@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6F0ABCC2-02C4-4F93-A762-66503E4647E6@gmail.com> On Mar 28, 2013, at 11:51 PM, Roger Serwy wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > There are 107 open issues against IDLE presently in the bug tracker. Here is a list of 31 issues that deal with actual bugs in IDLE. These are not enhancements, new features, user-interface annoyances, or anything requiring a change to how the user interacts with IDLE (with the arguable exceptions of 14105 and 14146). Let's fix these issues while we wait on PEP434. > > We still need a unit test framework for IDLE as listed in 15392. Full unit testing would require a significant refactoring of parts of IDLE. I am willing to accept extensive manual testing for an issue as sufficient reason to apply a patch, but if a very simple test can be written then let's write it with the hope of later incorporating it into a framework. > Count me in, thanks for providing a list now I know where to start. On the unit tests it is difficult to know what to write without an existing framework but I will give it a try. From rovitotv at gmail.com Fri Mar 29 20:39:39 2013 From: rovitotv at gmail.com (Todd Rovito) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 15:39:39 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] Latest Version of PEP-434 IDLE Enhancement Exception for All Branches Message-ID: The latest version just got posted, thanks for all the feedback! http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0434/ Please feel free to provide additional feedback or concerns.... Changes in the latest version: -Corrected the use of GUI acronym -Fixed spelling error with the word philosophy -Added a new paragraph in the Motivation section to recast the PEP to making "start with IDLE" the recommended teaching experience, and then focus on making that experience awesome. -Re-numbered the references From ncoghlan at gmail.com Sat Mar 30 02:25:28 2013 From: ncoghlan at gmail.com (Nick Coghlan) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 11:25:28 +1000 Subject: [Idle-dev] Latest Version of PEP-434 IDLE Enhancement Exception for All Branches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 5:39 AM, Todd Rovito wrote: > The latest version just got posted, thanks for all the feedback! > http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0434/ This looks good to me, so I will accept it and mark it as Active in the PEP index (and send the appropriate announcement to python-dev). I also double-checked with Guido whether or not he wanted to pronounce on this one himself, and he was happy for me to do it :) Cheers, Nick. > > Please feel free to provide additional feedback or concerns.... > > Changes in the latest version: > -Corrected the use of GUI acronym > -Fixed spelling error with the word philosophy > -Added a new paragraph in the Motivation section to recast the PEP to > making "start with IDLE" the recommended teaching experience, and then > focus on making that experience awesome. > -Re-numbered the references -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan at gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia From rovitotv at gmail.com Sat Mar 30 17:59:45 2013 From: rovitotv at gmail.com (Todd Rovito) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 12:59:45 -0400 Subject: [Idle-dev] Latest Version of PEP-434 IDLE Enhancement Exception for All Branches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 9:25 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote: > This looks good to me, so I will accept it and mark it as Active in > the PEP index (and send the appropriate announcement to python-dev). I > also double-checked with Guido whether or not he wanted to pronounce > on this one himself, and he was happy for me to do it :) > Thank you Nick!!!!! I appreciate your support, we will all work together to make IDLE the best Python learning environment. Personally I think this PEP will make it much easier for us to quickly cleanup IDLE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dblank at cs.brynmawr.edu Fri Mar 22 14:17:56 2013 From: dblank at cs.brynmawr.edu (Douglas S. Blank) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 13:17:56 -0000 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> Hello everyone! As someone who cares deeply both about open source software and getting more diverse groups of people into computing, I appreciate the details of unfolding story. First, I think that we call all agree on a few points: * all software can be made better * open source software is put together by volunteers * there aren't enough female voices in this community * diversity is a good thing---it allows us to see issues from other perspectives * we all want a good IDE for Python If I can jump in, I'd like to suggest that we all now work on a way forward. 1. Are IDLE sources on github? That would make it easy to fork and fix. 2. Perhaps IDLE could use a steering committee, composed of people from all walks of life 3. Perhaps IDLE will not satisfy all these groups of users. What then? Options? Let 1000 IDLE's bloom? 4. Is the design of IDLE correct? Or is a reboot in order? I very much appreciate everyone's honest discussion so far, and hope that we can work out the issues---a similar situation occurred at PyCon (perhaps not ironically) [1], but I hope that we can work out the problems in a constructive way here. Thanks! -Doug [1] - http://venturebeat.com/2013/03/21/breaking-adria-richards-fired-by-sendgrid-for-outting-developers-on-twitter/ -- Douglas S. Blank Associate Professor, Computer Science, Bryn Mawr College http://cs.brynmawr.edu/~dblank (610)526-6501 From dblank at cs.brynmawr.edu Fri Mar 22 14:32:23 2013 From: dblank at cs.brynmawr.edu (Douglas S. Blank) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 13:32:23 -0000 Subject: [Idle-dev] /me waves In-Reply-To: References: <37361.76.98.23.30.1363955747.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> Message-ID: <37536.76.98.23.30.1363959137.squirrel@cs.brynmawr.edu> > Thank you, Doug! > > Is there any sort of design documentation around IDLE? Because that > might be a great place to start. Perhaps there are a few simple things > we can tweak that will make the shell more shell-like, including key > bindings and more color schemes (a suggestion someone else made that I > love). I'd love to see more people talking about IDLE in a positive > way. > > Katie You're welcome! And to keep the ball rolling on IDLE design, I'll admit that I have been working on an IDLE-inspired IDE. Here is a screenshot: http://calicoproject.org/Image:CalicoWindow.gif (Calico isn't completely compatible with regular, old Python, as the goals of the system are a little different than IDLE's. For example, Calico supports a number of other languages in the Shell, including Scheme, Basic, Logo, and allows the languages to interoperate.) I mention this only because we have wrestled with the question: what would be better than IDLE?, and this is what we came up with so far. It has tabs, and a single window; It doesn't run Python in a separate process; color syntax highlighting; some support for tab-completion. But we believe in the IDLE Philosophy... our version: keep it simple, but allow it to "scale-up pedagogically". (But we do have built-in chat, and many other education-only features, so it isn't as simple as IDLE). -Doug > On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Douglas S. Blank > wrote: >> Hello everyone! >> >> As someone who cares deeply both about open source software and getting >> more diverse groups of people into computing, I appreciate the details >> of >> unfolding story. First, I think that we call all agree on a few points: >> >> * all software can be made better >> * open source software is put together by volunteers >> * there aren't enough female voices in this community >> * diversity is a good thing---it allows us to see issues from other >> perspectives >> * we all want a good IDE for Python >> >> If I can jump in, I'd like to suggest that we all now work on a way >> forward. >> >> 1. Are IDLE sources on github? That would make it easy to fork and fix. >> 2. Perhaps IDLE could use a steering committee, composed of people from >> all walks of life >> 3. Perhaps IDLE will not satisfy all these groups of users. What then? >> Options? Let 1000 IDLE's bloom? >> 4. Is the design of IDLE correct? Or is a reboot in order? >> >> I very much appreciate everyone's honest discussion so far, and hope >> that >> we can work out the issues---a similar situation occurred at PyCon >> (perhaps not ironically) [1], but I hope that we can work out the >> problems >> in a constructive way here. >> >> Thanks! >> >> -Doug >> >> [1] - >> http://venturebeat.com/2013/03/21/breaking-adria-richards-fired-by-sendgrid-for-outting-developers-on-twitter/ >> >> -- >> Douglas S. Blank >> Associate Professor, Computer Science, Bryn Mawr College >> http://cs.brynmawr.edu/~dblank (610)526-6501 >> > _______________________________________________ > IDLE-dev mailing list > IDLE-dev at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev > From premiumtelco.com at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 11:29:54 2013 From: premiumtelco.com at gmail.com (premiumtelco) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 10:29:54 -0000 Subject: [Idle-dev] multiple Python versions and testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1364033606708-5011434.post@n6.nabble.com> If I could interject an opinion in here, I would have to admit I have changed my mind about this topic. This is due to your persuasive words and sound commentary. Thank you for sharing. * premium rate telephone numbers * * Visit Here * * premiumtelco.com * ----- premium rate numbers Click Here premiumtelco -- View this message in context: http://python.6.n6.nabble.com/multiple-Python-versions-and-testing-tp1965201p5011434.html Sent from the Python - idle-dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.