From mwh at python.net  Mon Jan  9 10:53:02 2006
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 09:53:02 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] IRC meeting **TODAY**
Message-ID: <2mwth9ram9.fsf@starship.python.net>

>From http://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython/2006/IrcMeetings :

    We plan to have a meeting on Monday the 9th of January at 1700
    GMT+1 in the #europython channel on freenode.

I think that's still the plan.  Apologies for not sending this
reminder sooner.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  <glyph> "Fetch me my internet pants."
                                                -- from Twisted.Quotes

From hpk at trillke.net  Mon Jan  9 11:12:18 2006
From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:12:18 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] IRC meeting **TODAY**
In-Reply-To: <2mwth9ram9.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <2mwth9ram9.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <20060109101218.GX3134@solar.trillke.net>

On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 09:53 +0000, Michael Hudson wrote:
> >From http://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython/2006/IrcMeetings :
> 
>     We plan to have a meeting on Monday the 9th of January at 1700
>     GMT+1 in the #europython channel on freenode.
> 
> I think that's still the plan.  Apologies for not sending this
> reminder sooner.

I suggest the following topics: 

* brief posting about everyone's interest (to get a picture
  of why everyone attends)
* Detailed Status of Preparations at CERN (Benedikt)
* Track Planning / Chairs Status (Michael) 
* PR-considerations (Paul/Holger), mostly thinking about keynote-givers
* Timeline EuroPython 2006 (can someone prepare a proposal from past experiences?)
* schedule Next Meeting (early Feb?) 

Please feel free to comment/amend/add/delete from this list
before the meeting. 

I'd appreciate if we can keep the meeting to 60 minutes.
Let's rather do a couple of short meetings than a few long
lasting ones.   And no, i am not interested in moderating 
the meeting but would proably do it *this time* if enough 
people want me to :)  I actually suggest Aiste to do it, hehe.

cheers, 

    holger

From jacob at strakt.com  Mon Jan  9 14:13:47 2006
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:13:47 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] IRC meeting **TODAY**
In-Reply-To: <20060109101218.GX3134@solar.trillke.net>
References: <2mwth9ram9.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<20060109101218.GX3134@solar.trillke.net>
Message-ID: <200601091413.47793.jacob@strakt.com>

m?ndagen den 9 januari 2006 11.12 skrev holger krekel:
> On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 09:53 +0000, Michael Hudson wrote:
> > >From http://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython/2006/IrcMeetings :
> >
> >     We plan to have a meeting on Monday the 9th of January at 1700
> >     GMT+1 in the #europython channel on freenode.
> >
> > I think that's still the plan.  Apologies for not sending this
> > reminder sooner.
>
> I suggest the following topics:
>
> * brief posting about everyone's interest (to get a picture
>   of why everyone attends)
> * Detailed Status of Preparations at CERN (Benedikt)
> * Track Planning / Chairs Status (Michael)
> * PR-considerations (Paul/Holger), mostly thinking about keynote-givers
> * Timeline EuroPython 2006 (can someone prepare a proposal from past
> experiences?) * schedule Next Meeting (early Feb?)
>
> Please feel free to comment/amend/add/delete from this list
> before the meeting.
>
> I'd appreciate if we can keep the meeting to 60 minutes.
> Let's rather do a couple of short meetings than a few long
> lasting ones.   And no, i am not interested in moderating
> the meeting but would proably do it *this time* if enough
> people want me to :)  I actually suggest Aiste to do it, hehe.

I will probably not be able to attend the meeting, but I am still committed to 
do the following parts:

1. Provide the technical solution for registration, approval and publishing of 
talks.

2. Provide the technical solution for attendee registration.

3. Handle the printing of badges.

4. Make a handover of the conference program generation, giving whoever will 
do the generation the tools for extracting the correct information from the 
conference registration system and inserting it into the conference program 
generation system.

Items 1-3 are mostly doing an update and improvement to the system used last 
year. There are a few usability issues I would like to address and I would 
like to add the possibility of setting a password for people who wish to 
protect their personal information. There should also be a box to check if 
you don't want to be included in a list of attendees. Since we haven't had an 
opt-out before, we have been unable to give out details about attendees to 
other attendees, and there have been several people asking for such a list.

Jacob Hall?n

From nicolas.chauvat at logilab.fr  Mon Jan  9 16:34:57 2006
From: nicolas.chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:34:57 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] IRC meeting **TODAY**
In-Reply-To: <200601091413.47793.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <2mwth9ram9.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<20060109101218.GX3134@solar.trillke.net>
	<200601091413.47793.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <20060109153457.GC2331@crater.logilab.fr>

I will probably not be able to attend the meeting, but I am still committed to 
do the following parts:

* manage the science track [with help from other volunteers that
                            contacted me]

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances  

From gregweblists at googlemail.com  Mon Jan  9 18:07:35 2006
From: gregweblists at googlemail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gr=E9goire_Weber?=)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:07:35 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] PR: Get listed in a swiss OSS agenda (printed and
	electronic); deadline for printed version: 31.1.2006
Message-ID: <9fe139f50601090907x6e1f0537s@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everybody!

There is a so called "OSS Roadmap" (agenda with OSS events):

   http://www.ch-open.ch/sigs/ossroadmap/ (german only)

Partial translation to english:

   The association /ch/open (http://www.ch-open.ch) in corporation
   with IBM Switzerland (http://www.ibm.ch) will prepare a callendar
   (a so called OSS roadmap) with all Open Source activities in 2006.

   - There will be a printed version (deadline 31.1.2006)
   - and an electronic version (no deadlines)

If I get some help I can have a look we get registered for the print
version of this agenda.

We should really get listed there!

Gregoire

From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Mon Jan  9 18:42:52 2006
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 18:42:52 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Site europython 2006
In-Reply-To: <43C29BE6.6030807@nuxeo.com>
References: <43C29BE6.6030807@nuxeo.com>
Message-ID: <43C2A09C.1050400@ita.chalmers.se>


>jan 09 17:42:37 Aiste	mwh: who was responsible for webpage and other related things in the last conf?
>jan 09 17:42:38 *	dlk agrees with aiset - this is a hot topic  :-) 
>jan 09 17:42:52 Aiste	and who is interested in doing it this year?
>jan 09 17:42:56 dlk	Aiste:  it was jean-marc.
>jan 09 17:42:56 mwh	Aiste: i think jacob and laura did almost all of it
>jan 09 17:43:01 Aiste  :) 
>jan 09 17:43:03 mwh	content-wise, that is
>jan 09 17:43:10 dlk	we switched from Plone to CPS because no-one was happy with plone.
>jan 09 17:43:16 Aiste	content is somewhat separate from solution
>jan 09 17:43:27 pedronis	Bene: in what it is written?
>jan 09 17:43:32 dlk	and b fore that we swithced from something else to plone because none was happy with what was avialble then.
>jan 09 17:43:47 Aiste	ok, same situation this year as I can see
>jan 09 17:43:53 zopepaul	dlk: too bad the system won't write the words on the pages, as that's the real problem  :) 
>jan 09 17:43:54 Aiste	can we move the disscussion to mailing list
>jan 09 17:44:04 hpk	+1
>  
>

Hi,

As far as I can tell, the solution was a bit complex last year in that 3 
different solutions were involved:

- Strakt's own system for the registration to the conference, schedule 
planning and authors' bio and articles 
(http://www.python-in-business.org/ep2005/presentation.chtml).
- CPS for the site content, information about the conference 
(http://www.europython.org/)
- The wiki on python.org for user contributions (sprints, 
etc..http://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython2005)

/JM

From asouzaleite at gmx.de  Fri Jan  6 10:36:07 2006
From: asouzaleite at gmx.de (Aroldo Souza-Leite)
Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 10:36:07 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] talk slides Gothenburg 2005
Message-ID: <43BE3A07.8020204@gmx.de>

Hi,

could somebody upload my Gothenburg slides 2005 to

http://www.python-in-business.org/ep2005/alisttrack.chtml?track=694

(Zope 3 Common Criteria Certirification).

I've forgotten all instructions and passwords, sorry.


Thanks.


Aroldo.
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From benedikt.hegner at cern.ch  Mon Jan  9 18:49:18 2006
From: benedikt.hegner at cern.ch (Benedikt Hegner)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:49:18 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] preparations at CERN
Message-ID: <64361CA3-0C9B-4B70-98AC-0A0A5D323A78@cern.ch>

Hi all!

Some comments and information from the local organizers on epc2006:

Rooms and infrastructure:
- rooms are booked and confirmed.
- we prebooked open space for that and need to confirm it.
- we have prepared network for conference and sprints and some  
conference printers.
- for registraiton we need the MAC addresses of the laptops to make  
our live easier. The CERN IT is a little bit peculiar with that.
- at CERN you get access cards. I prepared special ones with the EPC  
logo. We have to fix the numbers of cards to print. No problem if  
there are to few - then we just get the normal ones.

Website:
- I propose using the INDICO software project funded by the EU. There  
is a group at CERN willing to support us. (http://indico.web.cern.ch/ 
indico/index.html). What's your opinion?

PR:
- we could print conference posters in our print shop but we need  
someone to design it.
- since you can get T-shirts at CERN and at every conference I  
propose conference coffee cups. I have plenty of conference shirts  
but I don't wear them at all.
- in the next CERN courier will be an article about Europython. (CERN  
courier is a journal which is read by most of the particle physicists)

Tracks and talks:
- Should we have a poster session?
- I would like to have a talk about CERN and the role of CERN in  
physics and computing science. Is there time for that?

Fees and registration:
- we have to decide the conference fees soon.
- if there are people from outside EU or Schengen needing  a visa  
they should register early enough that CERN has time to help with that.

That's all for the moment.

Cheers
Benedikt


-- 
Benedikt Hegner, DESY FLC
Notkestr. 85, D-22607 Hamburg
Office: 1d/38a
Phone: +49 (0)40 8998 1797
Fax:   +49 (0)40 8998 1812

at  CERN:
Office: 32/4b-20
Phone: +41 (0)22 767 6487
Fax:   +41 (0)22 782 8923




From jacob at strakt.com  Mon Jan  9 21:11:09 2006
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:11:09 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] talk slides Gothenburg 2005
In-Reply-To: <43BE3A07.8020204@gmx.de>
References: <43BE3A07.8020204@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <200601092111.09354.jacob@strakt.com>

fredagen den 6 januari 2006 10.36 skrev Aroldo Souza-Leite:
> Hi,
>
> could somebody upload my Gothenburg slides 2005 to
>
> http://www.python-in-business.org/ep2005/alisttrack.chtml?track=694
>
> (Zope 3 Common Criteria Certirification).
>
> I've forgotten all instructions and passwords, sorry.

Done.

Jacob

From mwh at python.net  Tue Jan 10 10:17:55 2006
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:17:55 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] PR: Get listed in a swiss OSS agenda (printed and
 electronic); deadline for printed version: 31.1.2006
In-Reply-To: <9fe139f50601090907x6e1f0537s@mail.gmail.com> (
	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gr=E9goire_Weber's_message_of?= "Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:07:35
	+0100")
References: <9fe139f50601090907x6e1f0537s@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2mirssqw58.fsf@starship.python.net>

Gr?goire Weber <gregweblists at googlemail.com> writes:

> Hi everybody!
>
> There is a so called "OSS Roadmap" (agenda with OSS events):
>
>    http://www.ch-open.ch/sigs/ossroadmap/ (german only)
>
> Partial translation to english:
>
>    The association /ch/open (http://www.ch-open.ch) in corporation
>    with IBM Switzerland (http://www.ibm.ch) will prepare a callendar
>    (a so called OSS roadmap) with all Open Source activities in 2006.
>
>    - There will be a printed version (deadline 31.1.2006)
>    - and an electronic version (no deadlines)
>
> If I get some help I can have a look we get registered for the print
> version of this agenda.
>
> We should really get listed there!

What needs to be done to make this happen?  It certainly sounds like a
good idea.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Slim Shady is fed up with your shit, and he's going to kill you.
                         -- Eminem, "Public Service Announcement 2000"

From benedikt.hegner at cern.ch  Tue Jan 10 10:35:21 2006
From: benedikt.hegner at cern.ch (Benedikt Hegner)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:35:21 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] PR: Get listed in a swiss OSS agenda (printed and
	electronic); deadline for printed version: 31.1.2006
In-Reply-To: <9fe139f50601090907x6e1f0537s@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9fe139f50601090907x6e1f0537s@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A3925A6C-3C1D-43F5-B168-079579FA6B1B@cern.ch>

Hi Gr?goire,

I can help with that. What do you need?

Harald - do you still have the german PR text from 2005?

Cheers
Benedikt



-- 
Benedikt Hegner, DESY FLC
Notkestr. 85, D-22607 Hamburg
Office: 1d/38a
Phone: +49 (0)40 8998 1797
Fax:   +49 (0)40 8998 1812

at  CERN:
Office: 32/4b-20
Phone: +41 (0)22 767 6487
Fax:   +41 (0)22 782 8923



On 09.01.2006, at 18:07, Gr?goire Weber wrote:

> Hi everybody!
>
> There is a so called "OSS Roadmap" (agenda with OSS events):
>
>    http://www.ch-open.ch/sigs/ossroadmap/ (german only)
>
> Partial translation to english:
>
>    The association /ch/open (http://www.ch-open.ch) in corporation
>    with IBM Switzerland (http://www.ibm.ch) will prepare a callendar
>    (a so called OSS roadmap) with all Open Source activities in 2006.
>
>    - There will be a printed version (deadline 31.1.2006)
>    - and an electronic version (no deadlines)
>
> If I get some help I can have a look we get registered for the print
> version of this agenda.
>
> We should really get listed there!
>
> Gregoire
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython


From nicolas.chauvat at logilab.fr  Tue Jan 10 12:55:54 2006
From: nicolas.chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:55:54 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Site europython 2006
In-Reply-To: <43C2A09C.1050400@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <43C29BE6.6030807@nuxeo.com> <43C2A09C.1050400@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <20060110115554.GD2054@logilab.fr>

Just for historical concerns...

On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 06:42:52PM +0100, Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
> >jan 09 17:43:10 dlk	we switched from Plone to CPS because no-one was happy with plone.

or rather, people willing to do the work did not know plone and did
not want to learn.

> >jan 09 17:43:32 dlk	and b fore that we swithced from something else to plone because none was happy with what was avialble then.

before that it was Zope and people willing to do the work thought it
would be easier with plone.

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances  

From paul at zope-europe.org  Tue Jan 10 13:22:49 2006
From: paul at zope-europe.org (Paul Everitt)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:22:49 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Site europython 2006
In-Reply-To: <20060110115554.GD2054@logilab.fr>
References: <43C29BE6.6030807@nuxeo.com> <43C2A09C.1050400@ita.chalmers.se>
	<20060110115554.GD2054@logilab.fr>
Message-ID: <156D8D40-5595-4BA8-B4CA-E01A83A5AA78@zope-europe.org>


Just to emphasize this point, history has shown that only a small  
number of people, namely the conference organizers, spend any non- 
negligible time working on *content* for the site.

As such, this organizer's group should be free to make any technology  
choice they want.  The idea that "if we had a better tool, people  
would write more" has proven itself to be wishful thinking.  People  
simply haven't been motivated to write content, IMO, and use the  
website technology as an excuse for lack of contribution.  (I'm as  
much to blame on this as anybody.)

--Paul

On Jan 10, 2006, at 12:55 PM, Nicolas Chauvat wrote:

> Just for historical concerns...
>
> On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 06:42:52PM +0100, Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
>>> jan 09 17:43:10 dlk	we switched from Plone to CPS because no-one  
>>> was happy with plone.
>
> or rather, people willing to do the work did not know plone and did
> not want to learn.
>
>>> jan 09 17:43:32 dlk	and b fore that we swithced from something  
>>> else to plone because none was happy with what was avialble then.
>
> before that it was Zope and people willing to do the work thought it
> would be easier with plone.
>
> -- 
> Nicolas Chauvat
>
> logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de  
> connaissances
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
>


From lac at strakt.com  Tue Jan 10 13:30:14 2006
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:30:14 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Site europython 2006
In-Reply-To: Message from Nicolas Chauvat <nicolas.chauvat@logilab.fr> 
	of "Tue,
	10 Jan 2006 12:55:54 +0100." <20060110115554.GD2054@logilab.fr> 
References: <43C29BE6.6030807@nuxeo.com> <43C2A09C.1050400@ita.chalmers.se>
	<20060110115554.GD2054@logilab.fr> 
Message-ID: <200601101230.k0ACUECC021815@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>


No, more correct the first time.  Many of the people who had used 
Plone the year before _hated_ it.  

Laura

In a message of Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:55:54 +0100, Nicolas Chauvat writes:
>Just for historical concerns...
>
>On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 06:42:52PM +0100, Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
>> >jan 09 17:43:10 dlk	we switched from Plone to CPS because no-one was h
>appy with plone.
>
>or rather, people willing to do the work did not know plone and did
>not want to learn.
>> >jan 09 17:43:32 dlk	and b fore that we swithced from something else to
> plone because none was happy with what was avialble then.
>
>before that it was Zope and people willing to do the work thought it
>would be easier with plone.
>
>-- 
>Nicolas Chauvat
>
>logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances 
> 
>_______________________________________________
>EuroPython mailing list
>EuroPython at python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython

From mwh at python.net  Tue Jan 10 13:40:52 2006
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:40:52 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] preparations at CERN
References: <64361CA3-0C9B-4B70-98AC-0A0A5D323A78@cern.ch>
Message-ID: <2moe2kp86j.fsf@starship.python.net>

Benedikt Hegner <benedikt.hegner at cern.ch> writes:

> Hi all!
>
> Some comments and information from the local organizers on epc2006:
>
> Rooms and infrastructure:
> - rooms are booked and confirmed.
> - we prebooked open space for that and need to confirm it.
> - we have prepared network for conference and sprints and some  
> conference printers.
> - for registraiton we need the MAC addresses of the laptops to make  
> our live easier. The CERN IT is a little bit peculiar with that.

People will whinge about this however we play it, but we should try to
make sure people are forewarned.

> Website:
> - I propose using the INDICO software project funded by the EU. There  
> is a group at CERN willing to support us. (http://indico.web.cern.ch/ 
> indico/index.html). What's your opinion?

Well, in principle the idea of having someone else do the work appeals
to me.  There are some obvious caveats though:

- is this something we can use for EP2007, ... ?

- does it basically work?  If hand-holding and baby-sitting are
  required, I'd rather hold the hand of software we wrote.

I'm also a little unsure what "using" this software involves.  Would
we install it on our own machine, or get some kind of account on a
machine at CERN?

> PR:
> - we could print conference posters in our print shop but we need  
> someone to design it.

Traditionally this sort of thing has been done by Vincent Maton but I
don't know if he's still around/willing to do this...

> - since you can get T-shirts at CERN and at every conference I  
> propose conference coffee cups. I have plenty of conference shirts  
> but I don't wear them at all.

Me too...

> - in the next CERN courier will be an article about Europython. (CERN  
> courier is a journal which is read by most of the particle physicists)
>
> Tracks and talks:
> - Should we have a poster session?

I'm not sure about this.  If I had something interesting I wanted to
present that didn't merit a full talk, I'd probably angle for a
lightning talk, not a poster.  But other opinions may vary.

> - I would like to have a talk about CERN and the role of CERN in  
> physics and computing science. Is there time for that?

I'm sure we can make time :)  Talk to Nicolas, I guess.

> Fees and registration:
> - we have to decide the conference fees soon.

How soon?  I guess timeline and budget should be very firmly on the
agenda for the next #europython meeting (which will be on the 23rd of
January, btw).  I would like to avoid having anything to do with the
budget :)

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  What the semicolon's anxious supporters fret about is the tendency
  of contemporary writers to use a dash instead of a semicolon and
  thus precipitate the end of the world.
                               -- Lynne Truss, "Eats, Shoots & Leaves"

From nicolas.chauvat at logilab.fr  Tue Jan 10 14:27:30 2006
From: nicolas.chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:27:30 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Site europython 2006
In-Reply-To: <200601101230.k0ACUECC021815@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
References: <43C29BE6.6030807@nuxeo.com> <43C2A09C.1050400@ita.chalmers.se>
	<20060110115554.GD2054@logilab.fr>
	<200601101230.k0ACUECC021815@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <20060110132730.GE2054@logilab.fr>

On Tue, Jan 10, 2006 at 01:30:14PM +0100, Laura Creighton wrote:
> 
> No, more correct the first time.  Many of the people who had used 
> Plone the year before _hated_ it.  

-1

but I completely agree with what paul said: let the people that do the
actual work use the tool they want.

what would be nice is that some kind soul finds a way to backup
content (wget ?) of older sites to make sure it stays available over
time. but as i can't, i won't complain if no one does.

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances  

From nicolas.chauvat at logilab.fr  Tue Jan 10 14:31:11 2006
From: nicolas.chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:31:11 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] preparations at CERN
In-Reply-To: <2moe2kp86j.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <64361CA3-0C9B-4B70-98AC-0A0A5D323A78@cern.ch>
	<2moe2kp86j.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <20060110133111.GF2054@logilab.fr>

> > - I would like to have a talk about CERN and the role of CERN in  
> > physics and computing science. Is there time for that?
> 
> I'm sure we can make time :)  Talk to Nicolas, I guess.

If talking in the Science track is fine with you, consider yourself
accepted as a speaker and please tell us everything we ever wish we
knew about Python at CERN :)

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances  

From aiste at pov.lt  Tue Jan 10 18:20:55 2006
From: aiste at pov.lt (Aiste Kesminaite)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:20:55 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] preparations at CERN
In-Reply-To: <64361CA3-0C9B-4B70-98AC-0A0A5D323A78@cern.ch>
References: <64361CA3-0C9B-4B70-98AC-0A0A5D323A78@cern.ch>
Message-ID: <43C3ECF7.9080402@pov.lt>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> Tracks and talks:
> - Should we have a poster session?

I have no strong opinion about that but would lean to the lightning
talks fulfilling this need.

One more thing related to tracks and talks -- there was a discussion
about changing track chairing format -- i.e. there was a suggestion to
not have one person who chairs the whole track during the conference but
rather have several people do it so no one would have to spend the whole
conference or most of it just in one track.

Taking care of choosing talks for a particular track prior to the
conference would still be done by one or a few people responsible for
that track.

What do people think about this change?

- --
Aiste Kesminaite
Managing director, Programmers of Vilnius
Phone: +370 6563 6462
Email: aiste at pov.lt
Web: www.pov.lt
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From benedikt.hegner at cern.ch  Tue Jan 10 18:31:22 2006
From: benedikt.hegner at cern.ch (Benedikt Hegner)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:31:22 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] preparations at CERN
In-Reply-To: <43C3ECF7.9080402@pov.lt>
References: <64361CA3-0C9B-4B70-98AC-0A0A5D323A78@cern.ch>
	<43C3ECF7.9080402@pov.lt>
Message-ID: <F3DAB62B-66C4-48A3-9D71-96A26232DC67@cern.ch>


On 10.01.2006, at 18:20, Aiste Kesminaite wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>> Tracks and talks:
>> - Should we have a poster session?
>
> I have no strong opinion about that but would lean to the lightning
> talks fulfilling this need.
>
> One more thing related to tracks and talks -- there was a discussion
> about changing track chairing format -- i.e. there was a suggestion to
> not have one person who chairs the whole track during the  
> conference but
> rather have several people do it so no one would have to spend the  
> whole
> conference or most of it just in one track.
>
> Taking care of choosing talks for a particular track prior to the
> conference would still be done by one or a few people responsible for
> that track.
>
> What do people think about this change?
+1

It's common for other conferences to split it up in that way. And it  
makes perfectly sense.

Cheers
Benedikt

From mwh at python.net  Tue Jan 10 18:43:19 2006
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:43:19 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] preparations at CERN
In-Reply-To: <43C3ECF7.9080402@pov.lt> (Aiste Kesminaite's message of "Tue,
	10 Jan 2006 19:20:55 +0200")
References: <64361CA3-0C9B-4B70-98AC-0A0A5D323A78@cern.ch>
	<43C3ECF7.9080402@pov.lt>
Message-ID: <2mk6d8ou6g.fsf@starship.python.net>

Aiste Kesminaite <aiste at pov.lt> writes:

>> Tracks and talks:
>> - Should we have a poster session?
>
> I have no strong opinion about that but would lean to the lightning
> talks fulfilling this need.
>
> One more thing related to tracks and talks -- there was a discussion
> about changing track chairing format -- i.e. there was a suggestion to
> not have one person who chairs the whole track during the conference but
> rather have several people do it so no one would have to spend the whole
> conference or most of it just in one track.
>
> Taking care of choosing talks for a particular track prior to the
> conference would still be done by one or a few people responsible for
> that track.
>
> What do people think about this change?

It makes sense to me.

In other news, I'd like to have an IRC meeting for people considering
being track chairs (in the before-the-conference sense) sometime in
the next couple of weeks.  As a strawman, I'd like to propose this
Friday (the 13th) at 1500 GMT (so 1600 for those on the continent).

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  MARVIN:  Oh dear, I think you'll find reality's on the blink again.
                   -- The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, Episode 12

From aiste at pov.lt  Tue Jan 10 18:56:06 2006
From: aiste at pov.lt (Aiste Kesminaite)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:56:06 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] preparations at CERN
In-Reply-To: <2mk6d8ou6g.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <64361CA3-0C9B-4B70-98AC-0A0A5D323A78@cern.ch>	<43C3ECF7.9080402@pov.lt>
	<2mk6d8ou6g.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <43C3F536.7050502@pov.lt>

> In other news, I'd like to have an IRC meeting for people considering
> being track chairs (in the before-the-conference sense) sometime in
> the next couple of weeks.  As a strawman, I'd like to propose this
> Friday (the 13th) at 1500 GMT (so 1600 for those on the continent).

I will be travelling this week and most likelly will not be online at
any predictable time. Any time from 18:00 GMT next Tuesday (the 17th) is
good for me.

-- 
Aiste Kesminaite
Managing director, Programmers of Vilnius
Phone: +370 6563 6462
Email: aiste at pov.lt
Web: www.pov.lt

From lac at strakt.com  Tue Jan 10 23:16:43 2006
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 23:16:43 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] preparations at CERN
In-Reply-To: Message from Aiste Kesminaite <aiste@pov.lt> 
	of "Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:20:55 +0200." <43C3ECF7.9080402@pov.lt> 
References: <64361CA3-0C9B-4B70-98AC-0A0A5D323A78@cern.ch>
	<43C3ECF7.9080402@pov.lt> 
Message-ID: <200601102216.k0AMGhKK010262@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>


My scientist friends are very used to poster sessions, and say they
like them.  If we expect CERN to draw a substantial number of 
scientists, this might be friendly.  Also, why either/or?  Have
posters _and_ give a lightning talk....

Laura

In a message of Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:20:55 +0200, Aiste Kesminaite writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>> Tracks and talks:
>> - Should we have a poster session?
>
>I have no strong opinion about that but would lean to the lightning
>talks fulfilling this need.
>
>One more thing related to tracks and talks -- there was a discussion
>about changing track chairing format -- i.e. there was a suggestion to
>not have one person who chairs the whole track during the conference but
>rather have several people do it so no one would have to spend the whole
>conference or most of it just in one track.
>
>Taking care of choosing talks for a particular track prior to the
>conference would still be done by one or a few people responsible for
>that track.
>
>What do people think about this change?
>
>- --
>Aiste Kesminaite
>Managing director, Programmers of Vilnius
>Phone: +370 6563 6462
>Email: aiste at pov.lt
>Web: www.pov.lt
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (Darwin)
>
>iD8DBQFDw+z2fK7m+cZVdY0RAjdnAJwIPqJxV1OVy3A4djSJsj7WwZ4R4gCfaGCQ
>wDmRAr2OfvHXjQgLzKsXi6c=
>=scmN
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>_______________________________________________
>EuroPython mailing list
>EuroPython at python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython

From asouzaleite at gmx.de  Wed Jan 11 08:14:06 2006
From: asouzaleite at gmx.de (Aroldo Souza-Leite)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:14:06 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] preparations at CERN
In-Reply-To: <2mk6d8ou6g.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <64361CA3-0C9B-4B70-98AC-0A0A5D323A78@cern.ch>	<43C3ECF7.9080402@pov.lt>
	<2mk6d8ou6g.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <43C4B03E.9000006@gmx.de>

Michael Hudson schrieb:

>Aiste Kesminaite <aiste at pov.lt> writes:
>
>  
>
>>>Tracks and talks:
>>>- Should we have a poster session?
>>>      
>>>
>>I have no strong opinion about that but would lean to the lightning
>>talks fulfilling this need.
>>
>>One more thing related to tracks and talks -- there was a discussion
>>about changing track chairing format -- i.e. there was a suggestion to
>>not have one person who chairs the whole track during the conference but
>>rather have several people do it so no one would have to spend the whole
>>conference or most of it just in one track.
>>
>>Taking care of choosing talks for a particular track prior to the
>>conference would still be done by one or a few people responsible for
>>that track.
>>
>>What do people think about this change?
>>    
>>
>
>It makes sense to me.
>
>In other news, I'd like to have an IRC meeting for people considering
>being track chairs (in the before-the-conference sense) sometime in
>the next couple of weeks.  As a strawman, I'd like to propose this
>Friday (the 13th) at 1500 GMT (so 1600 for those on the continent).
>
>Cheers,
>mwh
>
>  
>
I'm not sure I'll have learned how to hook myself onto this 
abovementioned IRC object till the next session, but I'll try.
In any case, if there is anything an utterly untechnical person could to 
in the preparation phase, I'm ready. For instance, taking care of the 
Education Track again would be allright with me, if there is going to be 
one.

Cheers,

Aroldo.

From paul at zope-europe.org  Wed Jan 11 09:57:02 2006
From: paul at zope-europe.org (Paul Everitt)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:57:02 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] preparations at CERN
In-Reply-To: <2mk6d8ou6g.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <64361CA3-0C9B-4B70-98AC-0A0A5D323A78@cern.ch>
	<43C3ECF7.9080402@pov.lt> <2mk6d8ou6g.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <7BE77D96-DCE9-4D1E-B9A3-401FDE23FA3D@zope-europe.org>


On Jan 10, 2006, at 6:43 PM, Michael Hudson wrote:

> Aiste Kesminaite <aiste at pov.lt> writes:
>
>>> Tracks and talks:
>>> - Should we have a poster session?
>>
>> I have no strong opinion about that but would lean to the lightning
>> talks fulfilling this need.
>>
>> One more thing related to tracks and talks -- there was a discussion
>> about changing track chairing format -- i.e. there was a  
>> suggestion to
>> not have one person who chairs the whole track during the  
>> conference but
>> rather have several people do it so no one would have to spend the  
>> whole
>> conference or most of it just in one track.
>>
>> Taking care of choosing talks for a particular track prior to the
>> conference would still be done by one or a few people responsible for
>> that track.
>>
>> What do people think about this change?
>
> It makes sense to me.

+1 from me also.  Track chair does preparation beforehand, track  
hosts manage presentations the day of the conference.

> In other news, I'd like to have an IRC meeting for people considering
> being track chairs (in the before-the-conference sense) sometime in
> the next couple of weeks.  As a strawman, I'd like to propose this
> Friday (the 13th) at 1500 GMT (so 1600 for those on the continent).

I'll be traveling that day, FWIW.

--Paul


From mwh at python.net  Wed Jan 11 11:17:23 2006
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:17:23 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] preparations at CERN
In-Reply-To: <43C3F536.7050502@pov.lt> (Aiste Kesminaite's message of "Tue,
	10 Jan 2006 19:56:06 +0200")
References: <64361CA3-0C9B-4B70-98AC-0A0A5D323A78@cern.ch>
	<43C3ECF7.9080402@pov.lt> <2mk6d8ou6g.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<43C3F536.7050502@pov.lt>
Message-ID: <2mbqyjt6fg.fsf@starship.python.net>

Aiste Kesminaite <aiste at pov.lt> writes:

>> In other news, I'd like to have an IRC meeting for people considering
>> being track chairs (in the before-the-conference sense) sometime in
>> the next couple of weeks.  As a strawman, I'd like to propose this
>> Friday (the 13th) at 1500 GMT (so 1600 for those on the continent).
>
> I will be travelling this week and most likelly will not be online at
> any predictable time. Any time from 18:00 GMT next Tuesday (the 17th) is
> good for me.

So it seems that this week isn't a good time for the meeting, and the
latter half of next week is not good for the PyPyers because of our
review.  This pushes the track chair chat back beyond the next general
meeting, so let's talk about it there.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Worryingly, DEFUN appears to be a function that removes all the
  fun from something: after using it all your code is converted 
  to C++.                              -- Tim Bradshaw, comp.lang.lisp

From mwh at python.net  Wed Jan 11 11:24:12 2006
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:24:12 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] preparations at CERN
In-Reply-To: <43C4B03E.9000006@gmx.de> (Aroldo Souza-Leite's message of
	"Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:14:06 +0100")
References: <64361CA3-0C9B-4B70-98AC-0A0A5D323A78@cern.ch>
	<43C3ECF7.9080402@pov.lt> <2mk6d8ou6g.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<43C4B03E.9000006@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <2m7j97t643.fsf@starship.python.net>

Aroldo Souza-Leite <asouzaleite at gmx.de> writes:

> I'm not sure I'll have learned how to hook myself onto this 
> abovementioned IRC object till the next session, but I'll try.
> In any case, if there is anything an utterly untechnical person could to 
> in the preparation phase, I'm ready. For instance, taking care of the 
> Education Track again would be allright with me, if there is going to be 
> one.

If by "taking care" you mean going and finding talks, that sounds
great!

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  <Aardappel> this "I hate c++" is so old
  <dash> it's as old as C++, yes
                                                -- from Twisted.Quotes

From gregweblists at googlemail.com  Fri Jan 13 09:39:10 2006
From: gregweblists at googlemail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gr=E9goire_Weber?=)
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:39:10 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] PR: Get listed in a swiss OSS agenda (printed and
	electronic); deadline for printed version: 31.1.2006
In-Reply-To: <A3925A6C-3C1D-43F5-B168-079579FA6B1B@cern.ch>
References: <9fe139f50601090907x6e1f0537s@mail.gmail.com>
	<A3925A6C-3C1D-43F5-B168-079579FA6B1B@cern.ch>
Message-ID: <9fe139f50601130039o39b9ee49i@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Benedikt,

May you (as German :-) ) read the instructions on the following page
(or just fill out the form):

    http://www.ch-open.ch/sigs/ossroadmap/

If there are problems, just send me an e-mail. I know the responsible
for this service.

I may also post the event. Crucial for the event to attract as much
people as possible is to have a good description text (max 500 chars).

Gregoire

2006/1/10, Benedikt Hegner <benedikt.hegner at cern.ch>:
> Hi Gr?goire,
>
> I can help with that. What do you need?
>
> Harald - do you still have the german PR text from 2005?
>
> Cheers
> Benedikt
>
>
>
> --
> Benedikt Hegner, DESY FLC
> Notkestr. 85, D-22607 Hamburg
> Office: 1d/38a
> Phone: +49 (0)40 8998 1797
> Fax:   +49 (0)40 8998 1812
>
> at  CERN:
> Office: 32/4b-20
> Phone: +41 (0)22 767 6487
> Fax:   +41 (0)22 782 8923
>
>
>
> On 09.01.2006, at 18:07, Gr?goire Weber wrote:
>
> > Hi everybody!
> >
> > There is a so called "OSS Roadmap" (agenda with OSS events):
> >
> >    http://www.ch-open.ch/sigs/ossroadmap/ (german only)
> >
> > Partial translation to english:
> >
> >    The association /ch/open (http://www.ch-open.ch) in corporation
> >    with IBM Switzerland (http://www.ibm.ch) will prepare a callendar
> >    (a so called OSS roadmap) with all Open Source activities in 2006.
> >
> >    - There will be a printed version (deadline 31.1.2006)
> >    - and an electronic version (no deadlines)
> >
> > If I get some help I can have a look we get registered for the print
> > version of this agenda.
> >
> > We should really get listed there!
> >
> > Gregoire
> > _______________________________________________
> > EuroPython mailing list
> > EuroPython at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
>
>

From benedikt.hegner at cern.ch  Mon Jan 16 11:03:22 2006
From: benedikt.hegner at cern.ch (Benedikt Hegner)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:03:22 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] europython website
Message-ID: <5E9A623C-8AC2-446F-899D-A64634449D86@cern.ch>

Hi all,

sorry, it is a little bit late but I was quite busy the last days.  
Let me answer Michael's questions about Indico:
This software was used before for other conferences and needs  
definitely no hand-holding or baby-sitting. The features are for  
example timetables, call for abstracts, registration, printing and  
everything related to the background work for track chairs  
(scheduling tracks, shifting talks, rejecting talks etc.). This  
software is free software (GPL), available as a package and yes - it  
can be used for the next conferences. It is not a big task to  
transfer a full conference (with talks, papers etc.) to another  
server. One major point - it is supported by a responsive developer  
group.
We already have a running Europython test site at CERN ( http:// 
indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=44 ). In principle we have  
nothing more to do than to use it. (I can create all needed accounts)

So I propose the following:
programme, timetables, registration, call for abstracts and all the  
work the track chairs have to do should be done with the Indico  
solution. All other information like travel information, sponsors,  
public relation stuff can be put on a more or less simple CMS without  
fancy features. We have already some information prepared and need to  
fill it in somewhere. Personally I prefer Plone but I am happy with  
every other out-of-the-box solution.

As Paul said - let's this year focus on content.

Cheers
Benedikt


-- 
Benedikt Hegner, DESY FLC
Notkestr. 85, D-22607 Hamburg
Office: 1d/38a
Phone: +49 (0)40 8998 1797
Fax:   +49 (0)40 8998 1812

at  CERN:
Office: 32/4b-20
Phone: +41 (0)22 767 6487
Fax:   +41 (0)22 782 8923




From mwh at python.net  Mon Jan 16 11:13:15 2006
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 10:13:15 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] europython website
In-Reply-To: <5E9A623C-8AC2-446F-899D-A64634449D86@cern.ch> (Benedikt
	Hegner's message of "Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:03:22 +0100")
References: <5E9A623C-8AC2-446F-899D-A64634449D86@cern.ch>
Message-ID: <2macdwqy4k.fsf@starship.python.net>

Benedikt Hegner <benedikt.hegner at cern.ch> writes:

> Hi all,
>
> sorry, it is a little bit late but I was quite busy the last days.  
> Let me answer Michael's questions about Indico:
> This software was used before for other conferences and needs  
> definitely no hand-holding or baby-sitting. The features are for  
> example timetables, call for abstracts, registration, printing and  
> everything related to the background work for track chairs  
> (scheduling tracks, shifting talks, rejecting talks etc.). This  
> software is free software (GPL), available as a package and yes - it  
> can be used for the next conferences. It is not a big task to  
> transfer a full conference (with talks, papers etc.) to another  
> server. One major point - it is supported by a responsive developer  
> group.

This is all good -- I'd attempted to install it and failed and
attempting to email the user group bounced, so I was getting a bit
discouraged...

> We already have a running Europython test site at CERN ( http:// 
> indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=44 ). In principle we have  
> nothing more to do than to use it. (I can create all needed accounts)

Looks fine to me.  Something I didn't see in the parts of indico I
looked at was anything to do with submitting talks, though.

> So I propose the following:
> programme, timetables, registration, call for abstracts and all the  
> work the track chairs have to do should be done with the Indico  
> solution. All other information like travel information, sponsors,  
> public relation stuff can be put on a more or less simple CMS without  
> fancy features. We have already some information prepared and need to  
> fill it in somewhere. Personally I prefer Plone but I am happy with  
> every other out-of-the-box solution.

You seem to have a start on this information in the indico instance
already -- is there a need for another CMS?

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  The only problem with Microsoft is they just have no taste.
              -- Steve Jobs, (From _Triumph of the Nerds_ PBS special)
                                and quoted by Aahz on comp.lang.python

From benedikt.hegner at cern.ch  Mon Jan 16 11:22:50 2006
From: benedikt.hegner at cern.ch (Benedikt Hegner)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:22:50 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] europython website
In-Reply-To: <2macdwqy4k.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <5E9A623C-8AC2-446F-899D-A64634449D86@cern.ch>
	<2macdwqy4k.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <E793868A-DCC2-4BF2-8AAA-F0CD8BF9E967@cern.ch>

Hello Michael,

>
> This is all good -- I'd attempted to install it and failed and
> attempting to email the user group bounced, so I was getting a bit
> discouraged...
Hmm.... what's the address you've tried?

>> We already have a running Europython test site at CERN ( http://
>> indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=44 ). In principle we have
>> nothing more to do than to use it. (I can create all needed accounts)
>
> Looks fine to me.  Something I didn't see in the parts of indico I
> looked at was anything to do with submitting talks, though.
It's in there but not  accessible for the public.

>> So I propose the following:
>> programme, timetables, registration, call for abstracts and all the
>> work the track chairs have to do should be done with the Indico
>> solution. All other information like travel information, sponsors,
>> public relation stuff can be put on a more or less simple CMS without
>> fancy features. We have already some information prepared and need to
>> fill it in somewhere. Personally I prefer Plone but I am happy with
>> every other out-of-the-box solution.
>
> You seem to have a start on this information in the indico instance
> already -- is there a need for another CMS?
Yes and no - for the sprints I would like to have a wiki which is not  
possible in Indico as far as I know.


Cheers
Benedikt





From mwh at python.net  Mon Jan 16 11:37:31 2006
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 10:37:31 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] europython website
In-Reply-To: <E793868A-DCC2-4BF2-8AAA-F0CD8BF9E967@cern.ch> (Benedikt
	Hegner's message of "Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:22:50 +0100")
References: <5E9A623C-8AC2-446F-899D-A64634449D86@cern.ch>
	<2macdwqy4k.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<E793868A-DCC2-4BF2-8AAA-F0CD8BF9E967@cern.ch>
Message-ID: <2m64okqx04.fsf@starship.python.net>

Benedikt Hegner <benedikt.hegner at cern.ch> writes:

> Hello Michael,
>
>>
>> This is all good -- I'd attempted to install it and failed and
>> attempting to email the user group bounced, so I was getting a bit
>> discouraged...
> Hmm.... what's the address you've tried?

project-indico-usergroup at cern.ch, from http://indico.web.cern.ch/indico/user_group.html

>>> We already have a running Europython test site at CERN ( http://
>>> indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=44 ). In principle we have
>>> nothing more to do than to use it. (I can create all needed accounts)
>>
>> Looks fine to me.  Something I didn't see in the parts of indico I
>> looked at was anything to do with submitting talks, though.
> It's in there but not  accessible for the public.

Well, the way previous EuroPython's have gone is to put out a call for
papers and invite submissions from the public.  A goodly fraction of
talks actually result from the track chairs going and finding them, of
course, but open submission is important, I think.

>>> So I propose the following:
>>> programme, timetables, registration, call for abstracts and all the
>>> work the track chairs have to do should be done with the Indico
>>> solution. All other information like travel information, sponsors,
>>> public relation stuff can be put on a more or less simple CMS without
>>> fancy features. We have already some information prepared and need to
>>> fill it in somewhere. Personally I prefer Plone but I am happy with
>>> every other out-of-the-box solution.
>>
>> You seem to have a start on this information in the indico instance
>> already -- is there a need for another CMS?
> Yes and no - for the sprints I would like to have a wiki which is not  
> possible in Indico as far as I know.

OK.  Wikis are easy -- python.org has one, for starters...

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Hiro dicks about with his computer, naturally.  Being stranded 
  on a life raft in the Pacific is a perfect venue for a hacker.
                                        -- Snow Crash, Neal Stephenson

From mal at egenix.com  Wed Jan 18 12:22:43 2006
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:22:43 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] preparations at CERN
In-Reply-To: <43C3ECF7.9080402@pov.lt>
References: <64361CA3-0C9B-4B70-98AC-0A0A5D323A78@cern.ch>
	<43C3ECF7.9080402@pov.lt>
Message-ID: <43CE2503.7050005@egenix.com>

> One more thing related to tracks and talks -- there was a discussion
> about changing track chairing format -- i.e. there was a suggestion to
> not have one person who chairs the whole track during the conference but
> rather have several people do it so no one would have to spend the whole
> conference or most of it just in one track.
> 
> Taking care of choosing talks for a particular track prior to the
> conference would still be done by one or a few people responsible for
> that track.
> 
> What do people think about this change?

FWIW: We've done that for the Python Framework track last year
and it worked out great.

The only question that came up was how to treat the track chairs
vs. the hosts with respect to the conference fee. We chose to
simply sign up as speaker or standard attendee (most hosts were
speakers).

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Jan 18 2006)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try mxODBC.Zope.DA for Windows,Linux,Solaris,FreeBSD for free ! ::::

From mal at egenix.com  Wed Jan 18 12:28:10 2006
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:28:10 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] preparations at CERN
In-Reply-To: <64361CA3-0C9B-4B70-98AC-0A0A5D323A78@cern.ch>
References: <64361CA3-0C9B-4B70-98AC-0A0A5D323A78@cern.ch>
Message-ID: <43CE264A.4050107@egenix.com>

Benedikt Hegner wrote:
> Hi all!
> 
> Some comments and information from the local organizers on epc2006:

Could you remind us on the dates ?

Thanks,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Jan 18 2006)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try mxODBC.Zope.DA for Windows,Linux,Solaris,FreeBSD for free ! ::::

From benedikt.hegner at cern.ch  Wed Jan 18 12:32:07 2006
From: benedikt.hegner at cern.ch (Benedikt Hegner)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:32:07 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] preparations at CERN
In-Reply-To: <43CE264A.4050107@egenix.com>
References: <64361CA3-0C9B-4B70-98AC-0A0A5D323A78@cern.ch>
	<43CE264A.4050107@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <2F4D359D-5036-4960-9521-D4355DA8010A@cern.ch>

Mon 3 July to Wed 5 July.
And the sprints are from 30 June to 9 July.

Cheers
Benedikt


> Benedikt Hegner wrote:
>> Hi all!
>>
>> Some comments and information from the local organizers on epc2006:
>
> Could you remind us on the dates ?
>
> Thanks,
> --  
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> eGenix.com
>
> Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Jan 18  
> 2006)
>>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http:// 
>>>> www.egenix.com/
>>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http:// 
>>>> zope.egenix.com/
>>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http:// 
>>>> python.egenix.com/
> ______________________________________________________________________ 
> __
>
> ::: Try mxODBC.Zope.DA for Windows,Linux,Solaris,FreeBSD for  
> free ! ::::


From mal at egenix.com  Wed Jan 18 12:46:19 2006
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:46:19 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] preparations at CERN
In-Reply-To: <2F4D359D-5036-4960-9521-D4355DA8010A@cern.ch>
References: <64361CA3-0C9B-4B70-98AC-0A0A5D323A78@cern.ch>	<43CE264A.4050107@egenix.com>
	<2F4D359D-5036-4960-9521-D4355DA8010A@cern.ch>
Message-ID: <43CE2A8B.3070002@egenix.com>

Benedikt Hegner wrote:
> Mon 3 July to Wed 5 July.
> And the sprints are from 30 June to 9 July.

Thank you !

> Cheers
> Benedikt
> 
> 
>> Benedikt Hegner wrote:
>>> Hi all!
>>>
>>> Some comments and information from the local organizers on epc2006:
>>
>> Could you remind us on the dates ?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -- Marc-Andre Lemburg
>> eGenix.com
>>
>> Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Jan 18 2006)
>>>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>
>> ::: Try mxODBC.Zope.DA for Windows,Linux,Solaris,FreeBSD for free ! ::::

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Jan 18 2006)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try mxODBC.Zope.DA for Windows,Linux,Solaris,FreeBSD for free ! ::::

From mwh at python.net  Mon Jan 23 11:04:31 2006
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:04:31 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] irc meeting this afternoon
Message-ID: <2m1wyzntu8.fsf@starship.python.net>

I believe we agreed to have an irc meeting in #europython at 1700
central european time tonight.  I intend to be there but first I have
to work out how to get past the firewall at the PyPy sprint...

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
[1] If you're lost in the woods, just bury some fibre in the ground
    carrying data. Fairly soon a JCB will be along to cut it for you
    - follow the JCB back to civilsation/hitch a lift.
                                               -- Simon Burr, cam.misc

From benedikt.hegner at cern.ch  Mon Jan 23 16:54:56 2006
From: benedikt.hegner at cern.ch (Benedikt Hegner)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:54:56 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] local organizers update
Message-ID: <BC38D11C-6789-4561-B774-7CF040A8980F@cern.ch>

Hi all,

before the meeting just some information.

Keynote speakers:
Would you be interested in a keynote about World Wide Grid? This was  
one of the ideas we had when discussing this topic in our meeting.  
For the people who asked: Tim Berners-Lee is to expensive for us  
(think alone of the travel costs from USA).

Conference dinner proposal:

Rillettes de saumon sur saladine
Supreme de poulet ?provencale?
Entremet aux fruits
****
Terrine de Rouget
Longe de veau rotie au Noilly Prat
Salade de fruits rouges
****
Salade estivale (jambon cru/melon)
Cornet de truite aux petits legumes
Foret noire
****
Garniture de saison selon le choix

No proposal for the vegetarian menu yet.

Budget breakdown:
lunch will not be included for several reasons. The prices for lunch  
have a wide range. From simple sandwich to a full blown lunch  
everything is possible. Providing coupons we would limit for example  
in Restaurant 1 the choice to the standard menus Proton, Neutron  
(what else should meals for physicists be named after ;-)) and  
vegetarian. And because we will not get any rebates (too bad) we  
decided to exclude lunch from the conference fee.

So what's included then:
- a personal folder with information about the conference, the site...
- coffee breaks (coffee, tee, croissant, juice, water, biscuits)
- drink
- conference dinner
- access cards (yes. we probably have to pay for stupid plastic cards  
to access the cern area)
- guided tour to one of the big experiment areas for 100 participants.
- some infrastructure (e.g. a room with terminals for people without  
a portable)

This makes in total costs of roughly 65 Euro per Person. Could be 2  
Euros more or less. Some items are not yet clear. I know - it's a lot

Then we have the expenses for Keynote speakers and grants for some  
speakers. Extrapolated from the numbers I got for last year  it's  
about 8000 Euro.
With a low estimate of 250 participants that would make (together  
with 1000 printed stuff, 1000 reserve) about 25,000 Euro to finance  
the conference at the local site.

My conservative idea for the fees (new/old):
50/70 Euro for Speakers (yes. cheaper than our costs per person.  
Otherwise it would be more expensive than last year if you think of  
the lunch.)
Students
65/100 Euro (early bird)
100/150 Euro (normal)
150/200 Euro (at door)
Other participants:
120/160 Euro (early bird)
190/220 Euro (normal)
240/270 Euro (at door)

I based my calculation on these numbers:
20 staff
60 Speakers
75 early birds
60 Normal
25 early bird students
10 students

If we scale this up to 300 participants the fees could be reduced a lot.

Website:
A simple but nice looking website for PR about europython in general,  
with some information about the past conferences and a link to the  
new one. I will help with the content (which is already there in parts).
All other information is on our local website at CERN. But there we  
are a little bit limited in matters of eye-candy layouts. That's the  
reason why I think we need such a website.

Deadlines:
We have to discuss the deadlines for talk submission, early birds,  
normal registration etc. And we need a deadline for announcing the  
conference.

Official Europython Society stuff:
Would it make sense to open a bank account somewhere in a country  
with the Euro? The next conference will probably be in another "Euro- 
Country". Now with an account in Sweden it will be a conversion from  
Euro to Swedish Crowns, then back to Euro and some Swiss francs.  
That's waste of money.

That's all for the moment. Waiting for your comments :-)

Cheers
Benedikt





From mwh at python.net  Mon Jan 23 17:33:46 2006
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:33:46 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] local organizers update
In-Reply-To: <BC38D11C-6789-4561-B774-7CF040A8980F@cern.ch> (Benedikt
	Hegner's message of "Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:54:56 +0100")
References: <BC38D11C-6789-4561-B774-7CF040A8980F@cern.ch>
Message-ID: <2mk6cqnbth.fsf@starship.python.net>

Benedikt Hegner <benedikt.hegner at cern.ch> writes:

> My conservative idea for the fees (new/old):
> 50/70 Euro for Speakers (yes. cheaper than our costs per person.  
> Otherwise it would be more expensive than last year if you think of  
> the lunch.)

We had absolutely loads of speakers last year, which is fun in some
ways but hurt the bottom line.  I think we should feel free to charge
them more (PyCon charges speakers full price, and doesn't seem short
of talks.  I'm not sure we should go that far).

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Strangely enough  I saw just such a beast at  the grocery store
  last night. Starbucks sells Javachip. (It's ice cream, but that
  shouldn't be an obstacle for the Java marketing people.)
                                         -- Jeremy Hylton, 29 Apr 1997

From paul at zope-europe.org  Mon Jan 23 17:41:40 2006
From: paul at zope-europe.org (Paul Everitt)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:41:40 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] local organizers update
In-Reply-To: <2mk6cqnbth.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <BC38D11C-6789-4561-B774-7CF040A8980F@cern.ch>
	<2mk6cqnbth.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <078D8930-8DDE-4FD4-91B1-F2DB9E69F412@zope-europe.org>


On Jan 23, 2006, at 5:33 PM, Michael Hudson wrote:

> Benedikt Hegner <benedikt.hegner at cern.ch> writes:
>
>> My conservative idea for the fees (new/old):
>> 50/70 Euro for Speakers (yes. cheaper than our costs per person.
>> Otherwise it would be more expensive than last year if you think of
>> the lunch.)
>
> We had absolutely loads of speakers last year, which is fun in some
> ways but hurt the bottom line.  I think we should feel free to charge
> them more (PyCon charges speakers full price, and doesn't seem short
> of talks.  I'm not sure we should go that far).

I agree with your point.  Equally, we have some people that put in  
talk submissions not because they plan to do a good job on their  
talk, but rather they just want a lower fee.  Negative incentive. :^)

--Paul

From mwh at python.net  Mon Jan 23 18:06:09 2006
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:06:09 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] Track Chair meeting 31st January
Message-ID: <2mfynenabi.fsf@starship.python.net>

As discussed in today's more general IRC meeting, I'd like to have a
meeting on the #europython channel on freenode at 5pm centraol
european time to discuss issues to do with the chairing of tracks
(chairing of tracks in the before-conference sense).

Basically, we should talk about which tracks we want, what we will
call them and who will coordinate the process of finding talks for
them.  If you are interested in this latter role, please attend.

Ideally, after this meeting we'd be able to write a Call For Papers.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
    . <- the point                                your article -> .
    |------------------------- a long way ------------------------|
                                       -- Christophe Rhodes, ucam.chat

From hpk at trillke.net  Mon Jan 23 18:19:48 2006
From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:19:48 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] #europython minutes 23rd January 2006
Message-ID: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>

Hi folks, 

here are my brief notes/minutes about the EuroPython meeting 
today, hope i got everything correctly.   Next Meeting is 

    6th February 2006, 5pm CET  (60 minutes max) 

and will be moderated by Aiste - send her or the europython
list your agenda topics. 

cheers, 

    holger


EuroPython Orga Meeting 23rd January 2006 
----------------------------------------------

Time & Location: #europython 23rd Jan 2006, 5pm-6pm CET 

Attendees: Paul Everitt, Michael Hudson, Benedikt Hegner, 
           Holger Krekel (moderation), Aiste Kesminaite, 
           Jacob Hallen, Alexander Schremm (xorAxAx), 
           Christian Scholz (MrTopf), Harald Armin Massa (ghum)

the meeting was ad-hoc moderated by holger. 

* Discussion about "Zope" track

  Paul suggests to go for a "Web Frameworks Track" instead 
  of limiting it to Zope.  He thinks that this should
  help to get more cross-pollination going within the 
  python web framework communities.  There would likely
  be a quota on Zope talks then.  The ideas were welcomed 
  by the attendees and will likely be followed up 
  on the mailing list and on the upcoming track chair 
  meeting. 
   
* conference fees 
  Benedikt sent a mail to the EuroPython list short before
  the meeting about price calculations.  Apart from the 
  fact that a some people want higher speaker prices 
  the prices are reasonable.  The fee calculations should
  be decided upon at the next EuroPython Meeting. 

* deadlines 
  The meeting came up with the following rought timeline: 

  15th February  Call for Proposals 
  March          Opening online Registration (Payment issue pending!) 
  31st March     Deadline for proposal submissions
  30th April     Prelininary Program with accepted talks 
  19th May       Closing Early Bird registration 

* Renaming EuroPython to Pycon idea 
  Holger mentions the idea of renaming EuroPython to Pycon. 
  The idea is generally welcomed but a number of people think 
  that we should not tackle this for 2006.  Everybody agrees
  that heading for some more discussions with organisers 
  from non-europe Python conferences e.g. at Pycon 2006 
  makes sense.  The guiding idea is to have a worldwide 
  naming/context umbrella for Python conferences. 

* next dates: 
 
  31st January 5pm Track-Chair Meeting (moderation + agenda: Michael) 
  6th February 5pm  EuroPython Meeting  (moderation + agenda: Aiste)


somewhat open topics: 

* decision/procedures on conference software (favourite seems
  to be Benedikt's CERN solution for now)
* followup on payment procedures/accounts (IBAN + Creditcard
  payment possibilities desired)
* Website ???

From nicolas.chauvat at logilab.fr  Mon Jan 23 18:34:04 2006
From: nicolas.chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:34:04 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] #europython minutes 23rd January 2006
In-Reply-To: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
Message-ID: <20060123173404.GN2067@logilab.fr>

On Mon, Jan 23, 2006 at 06:19:48PM +0100, holger krekel wrote:
> * Renaming EuroPython to Pycon idea 
>   Holger mentions the idea of renaming EuroPython to Pycon. 

-1*10

>   The idea is generally welcomed but a number of people think 
>   that we should not tackle this for 2006.  Everybody agrees
>   that heading for some more discussions with organisers 
>   from non-europe Python conferences e.g. at Pycon 2006 
>   makes sense. 

+1

>  The guiding idea is to have a worldwide 
>  naming/context umbrella for Python conferences. 

Why would that be necessary ? IMHO, having two names for two very
distinct events is perfect. At the moment you know that PyCon means US
and EuroPython means Europe. I would welcome PyAsia or LatinaPy,
etc. and try to get there. But if every Python Conference is named
PyCon, you'll have:

A: Will I meet you at PyCon 2007 ?
B: Which one, the one in Europe or the one in the US ?
A: EuroPyCon.

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances  

From paul at zope-europe.org  Mon Jan 23 18:44:50 2006
From: paul at zope-europe.org (Paul Everitt)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:44:50 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] #europython minutes 23rd January 2006
In-Reply-To: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
Message-ID: <E6038AEF-C9A9-4721-802C-812D4AAAF593@zope-europe.org>


On Jan 23, 2006, at 6:19 PM, holger krekel wrote:

> * Discussion about "Zope" track
>
>   Paul suggests to go for a "Web Frameworks Track" instead
>   of limiting it to Zope.  He thinks that this should
>   help to get more cross-pollination going within the
>   python web framework communities.  There would likely
>   be a quota on Zope talks then.  The ideas were welcomed
>   by the attendees and will likely be followed up
>   on the mailing list and on the upcoming track chair
>   meeting.

To add some more background on this point, Zope would like to be less  
of an island in the Python community.  I think Zope has much to  
offer, especially in Zope 3, where interesting parts can be used in  
isolation.  I also think Zope has lots to gain from Python and other  
Python web frameworks.  There's tons of exciting stuff going on in  
the Python web frameworks space.

Finally, I think Python itself is facing strong competition in Python  
web frameworks.  We (the Python web frameworks) should recognize this  
and work together more to tell a better story.

Having a Zope mini-event inside the EuroPython main event has worked  
well for a number years.  I think times have changed, though, and we  
should all hang out together and listen to what the others have to  
offer.

--Paul

From paul at zope-europe.org  Mon Jan 23 18:47:51 2006
From: paul at zope-europe.org (Paul Everitt)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:47:51 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] #europython minutes 23rd January 2006
In-Reply-To: <E6038AEF-C9A9-4721-802C-812D4AAAF593@zope-europe.org>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
	<E6038AEF-C9A9-4721-802C-812D4AAAF593@zope-europe.org>
Message-ID: <93E07978-AA13-4C61-9D81-F4B10FF5BCF1@zope-europe.org>


Oops...

On Jan 23, 2006, at 6:44 PM, Paul Everitt wrote:

>
> On Jan 23, 2006, at 6:19 PM, holger krekel wrote:
>
>> * Discussion about "Zope" track
>>
>>   Paul suggests to go for a "Web Frameworks Track" instead
>>   of limiting it to Zope.  He thinks that this should
>>   help to get more cross-pollination going within the
>>   python web framework communities.  There would likely
>>   be a quota on Zope talks then.  The ideas were welcomed
>>   by the attendees and will likely be followed up
>>   on the mailing list and on the upcoming track chair
>>   meeting.
>
> To add some more background on this point, Zope would like to be less
> of an island in the Python community.  I think Zope has much to
> offer, especially in Zope 3, where interesting parts can be used in
> isolation.  I also think Zope has lots to gain from Python and other
> Python web frameworks.  There's tons of exciting stuff going on in
> the Python web frameworks space.
>
> Finally, I think Python itself is facing strong competition in Python

^^^^ Omit the second "Python".

--Paul

> web frameworks.  We (the Python web frameworks) should recognize this
> and work together more to tell a better story.
>
> Having a Zope mini-event inside the EuroPython main event has worked
> well for a number years.  I think times have changed, though, and we
> should all hang out together and listen to what the others have to
> offer.
>
> --Paul
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
>


From tziade at nuxeo.com  Mon Jan 23 19:13:35 2006
From: tziade at nuxeo.com (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Tarek_Ziad=E9?=)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:13:35 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] #europython minutes 23rd January 2006
In-Reply-To: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
Message-ID: <43D51CCF.6000105@nuxeo.com>

holger krekel wrote:

>* Renaming EuroPython to Pycon idea 
>  Holger mentions the idea of renaming EuroPython to Pycon. 
>  The idea is generally welcomed but a number of people think 
>  that we should not tackle this for 2006.  Everybody agrees
>  that heading for some more discussions with organisers 
>  from non-europe Python conferences e.g. at Pycon 2006 
>  makes sense.  The guiding idea is to have a worldwide 
>  naming/context umbrella for Python conferences. 
>  
>
-1 unless it's named EuroPycon

The worldwide naming/context is already present: Python (or Pycon)
This would be very confusing imo to have two events with the very same name

Tarek

-- 
Tarek Ziad? | Nuxeo R&D (Paris, France)
CPS Plateform : http://www.cps-project.org
mail: tziade at nuxeo.com | tel: +33 (0) 6 30 37 02 63
You need Zope 3 - http://www.z3lab.org/


From hpk at trillke.net  Mon Jan 23 19:48:51 2006
From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:48:51 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] #europython minutes 23rd January 2006
In-Reply-To: <43D51CCF.6000105@nuxeo.com>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
	<43D51CCF.6000105@nuxeo.com>
Message-ID: <20060123184851.GC13417@solar.trillke.net>

On Mon, Jan 23, 2006 at 19:13 +0100, Tarek Ziad? wrote:
> holger krekel wrote:
> 
> >* Renaming EuroPython to Pycon idea 
> >  Holger mentions the idea of renaming EuroPython to Pycon. 
> >  The idea is generally welcomed but a number of people think 
> >  that we should not tackle this for 2006.  Everybody agrees
> >  that heading for some more discussions with organisers 
> >  from non-europe Python conferences e.g. at Pycon 2006 
> >  makes sense.  The guiding idea is to have a worldwide 
> >  naming/context umbrella for Python conferences. 
> >  
> >
> -1 unless it's named EuroPycon
> 
> The worldwide naming/context is already present: Python (or Pycon)
> This would be very confusing imo to have two events with the very same name

We didn't yet motivate the idea much here on the list
and neither at the meeting.  Basically it's an idea that relates to
PR/marketing.  Having Pycon US, Pycon Europe, Pycon Brasil etc. 
would show that Python has a world wide connected developer community.
It's certainly not about having the exactly same name.  Btw, people
already expressed at the meeting that they would only consider it 
if the US guys would append some regional suffix as well. 

Anyway, let's not go wild at the idea for 2006 unless we want
to definitely exclude the consideration at all ... but that
didn't appear so at todays #europython meeting, at least.  
Actually the "Zope" webframework renaming was supposed 
to be the thread-spawning discussion :)  

cheers, 

    holger

From js at aixtraware.de  Mon Jan 23 20:27:51 2006
From: js at aixtraware.de (Joachim Schmitz)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:27:51 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] #europython minutes 23rd January 2006
In-Reply-To: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
Message-ID: <43D52E37.8060607@aixtraware.de>

holger krekel wrote:
> Hi folks, 
<snipp>

> somewhat open topics: 
> 
> * decision/procedures on conference software (favourite seems
>   to be Benedikt's CERN solution for now)

I can offer to port my conference-product, which was used for EPC2002,
to EPC2004 to CPS. The Call-for proposals part can be ready 15.2.2006.

> * followup on payment procedures/accounts (IBAN + Creditcard
>   payment possibilities desired)

Independent which conference system will be used I can offer to
integrate the WorldPay-Creditcard system which was used on all EPC's
into whatever registration system is used, as long it is WEB-based.

> * Website ???
Wouldn't it be best to reuse the WEB-site from last year. Certainly,
there has to be a lokal administrator for it.


-- 
Mit freundlichen Gr??en                                Joachim Schmitz
......................................................................
AixtraWare eK ..Joachim Schmitz ..www.aixtraware.de ..t: +49-2464-8851
H?sgenstr. 33a .....d-52457 Aldenhoven .............f: +49-2464-905163

From asouzaleite at gmx.de  Wed Jan 25 08:29:49 2006
From: asouzaleite at gmx.de (Aroldo Souza-Leite)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 08:29:49 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Python conference software
In-Reply-To: <43D52E37.8060607@aixtraware.de>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
	<43D52E37.8060607@aixtraware.de>
Message-ID: <43D728ED.8010805@gmx.de>

Hi list,

a Python software solution for the Europython conference would be cool. 
If there is someone (Joachim Schmitz) prepared to configure it using the 
experience of the last conferences, it seems to me that this little bit 
of Python sectarianism won't keep us from concentrating on the 
conference content. 
Joachim, if you think I can help more than disturb in any task, please 
tell me.

Cheers.

Aroldo.

Joachim Schmitz schrieb:

>holger krekel wrote:
>  
>
>>Hi folks, 
>>    
>>
><snipp>
>
>  
>
>>somewhat open topics: 
>>
>>* decision/procedures on conference software (favourite seems
>>  to be Benedikt's CERN solution for now)
>>    
>>
>
>I can offer to port my conference-product, which was used for EPC2002,
>to EPC2004 to CPS. The Call-for proposals part can be ready 15.2.2006.
>
>  
>
>>* followup on payment procedures/accounts (IBAN + Creditcard
>>  payment possibilities desired)
>>    
>>
>
>Independent which conference system will be used I can offer to
>integrate the WorldPay-Creditcard system which was used on all EPC's
>into whatever registration system is used, as long it is WEB-based.
>
>  
>
>>* Website ???
>>    
>>
>Wouldn't it be best to reuse the WEB-site from last year. Certainly,
>there has to be a lokal administrator for it.
>
>
>  
>


From mwh at python.net  Wed Jan 25 10:16:47 2006
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:16:47 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] Python conference software
In-Reply-To: <43D728ED.8010805@gmx.de> (Aroldo Souza-Leite's message of
	"Wed, 25 Jan 2006 08:29:49 +0100")
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
	<43D52E37.8060607@aixtraware.de> <43D728ED.8010805@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <2mpsmglla8.fsf@starship.python.net>

Aroldo Souza-Leite <asouzaleite at gmx.de> writes:

> Hi list,
>
> a Python software solution for the Europython conference would be cool. 
> If there is someone (Joachim Schmitz) prepared to configure it using the 
> experience of the last conferences, it seems to me that this little bit 
> of Python sectarianism won't keep us from concentrating on the 
> conference content. 

FWIW, CERN's indico conference software is written in Python too (and
is open source, gpl I believe).  I also failed in my attempt to
install it, though...

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  CLiki pages can be edited by anybody at any time. Imagine the most
  fearsomely comprehensive legal disclaimer you have ever seen, and
  double it                        -- http://ww.telent.net/cliki/index

From jacob at strakt.com  Wed Jan 25 17:38:57 2006
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob Hallen)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:38:57 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Python conference software
In-Reply-To: <2mpsmglla8.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
	<43D728ED.8010805@gmx.de> <2mpsmglla8.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <200601251738.57132.jacob@strakt.com>

onsdag 25 januari 2006 10.16 skrev Michael Hudson:
> Aroldo Souza-Leite <asouzaleite at gmx.de> writes:
> > Hi list,
> >
> > a Python software solution for the Europython conference would be cool.
> > If there is someone (Joachim Schmitz) prepared to configure it using the
> > experience of the last conferences, it seems to me that this little bit
> > of Python sectarianism won't keep us from concentrating on the
> > conference content.
>
> FWIW, CERN's indico conference software is written in Python too (and
> is open source, gpl I believe).  I also failed in my attempt to
> install it, though...

When making the choice of registration software, there are some rather 
important points to consider.

1. The software has to work on the day we start taking registrations.

This may sound self evident, but we have had problems in the past. Using 
something that has been tested saves a lot of grief.

2. The software needs to do a good job in supporting all the actors using the 
system. This means that speakers and attendees should have an easy time 
registering. The track chairs should be able to view and handle all the talks 
in their tracks. The schedulers needs to have support for scheduling. The 
registration administrators must have access to many different views and a 
powerful search interface. Last year I was able to place a payment by 
searching for all attendees from the UK who had ordered a T-shirt and for 
whom a payment was not yet registered. There were many other such incidents 
where the search interface saved many hours of work.

3. Producing quality outputs is essential. There are 3 major products and some 
minor ones needed.

a) Invoices.

You must be able to produce invoices in accordance with legal requirements. 
The smallest amount of work for the organisers is generated if attendees can 
print their own invoices. Don't expect everyone to manage to print an invoice 
at registration. You need an interface so they can come back and make a 
separate printout. They need fields for entering an organisation number and 
other reference information on the invoice. You must put the attendee 
information in a place that is not part of the address fields, or some 
organisations will complain. You must have complete payment information on 
invoices.

b) Badges.

A lot of work went into making name tags that are actually readable and that 
contain useful information. I decided to go for name, organisation, email 
address and country (plus attendee category) as useful information to put on 
the badge. Email address was made in a smaller and harder to read print, 
because I wanted that bit of information to be a bit harder to access. If the 
badge holder wants to give it out, he/she can point to the badge.

All the major fields require scaling, as some individuals have very long names 
or organisation names, while most people have reasonably short ones. 
Adjusting everyone for the longest names means that everyone gets badges that 
are impossible to read.

c) Programme

Making a printable programme with all necessary content is not a trivial 
exercise. So far we have been relying on the software of Reportlab for this 
task. It has the nice feature of allowing each attendee to print a customised 
programme.

d) Statistics

You should be able to generate statistics lengthwise and crosswise. How many 
staff, track chairs, speakers, students, early birds, on-sites, no-shows, 
people from different countries etc.

e) Talk materials

You need places to store these and make them available to attendees and to the 
general public.


Moving to a solution that doesn't support these things would be a regression, 
as would having a registration procedure that does not build on the lessons 
we have learned in previous years of Europython. Getting it right was 
actually hard work.

This said, I'll be just as happy not doing registration with the CAPS system, 
as it would require a bit of work from me. However, I think that the CAPS 
system encapsulates the lessons we have learned in a way that the other 
proposals are unlikely to do.

For the website with information about the conference, what we had the last 2 
years was hopelessly over-engineered. There is need for some fairly advanced 
templating, which allows for the display of banner ads, unified dropdown 
menus and such, but the content management behind has really been in the way 
of collaborative work on the website. The ideal solution from my horizon 
would be a very small directory tree with a simple include mechanism and 
files written in either xhtml or Rest. The webserver would handle the 
includes, the Rest translations and finally fill in the dynamic content 
before serving up a webpage. Doing Plone or CPS for handling a site of about 
25 web pages is as impractical as shooting mosquitos with an anti-aircraft 
gun.

Jacob Hall?n

From steve at canonical.com  Wed Jan 25 17:51:43 2006
From: steve at canonical.com (Steve Alexander)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 18:51:43 +0200
Subject: [EuroPython] Python conference software
In-Reply-To: <200601251738.57132.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>	<43D728ED.8010805@gmx.de>
	<2mpsmglla8.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<200601251738.57132.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <43D7AC9F.9060206@canonical.com>


> For the website with information about the conference, what we had the last 2 
> years was hopelessly over-engineered. There is need for some fairly advanced 
> templating, which allows for the display of banner ads, unified dropdown 
> menus and such, but the content management behind has really been in the way 
> of collaborative work on the website. The ideal solution from my horizon 
> would be a very small directory tree with a simple include mechanism and 
> files written in either xhtml or Rest. The webserver would handle the 
> includes, the Rest translations and finally fill in the dynamic content 
> before serving up a webpage. Doing Plone or CPS for handling a site of about 
> 25 web pages is as impractical as shooting mosquitos with an anti-aircraft 
> gun.

The Ubuntu linux distribution has recently moved its website from Plone
to a MoinMoin wiki, with some customized moin style files.

I think a MoinMoin wiki meets the basic needs you outlined above.

-- 
Steve Alexander

From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Wed Jan 25 19:29:18 2006
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:29:18 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Python conference software
In-Reply-To: <200601251738.57132.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>	<43D728ED.8010805@gmx.de>
	<2mpsmglla8.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<200601251738.57132.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <43D7C37E.9040003@ita.chalmers.se>

Jacob Hallen wrote:

>
>This said, I'll be just as happy not doing registration with the CAPS system, 
>as it would require a bit of work from me. However, I think that the CAPS 
>system encapsulates the lessons we have learned in a way that the other 
>proposals are unlikely to do.
>
>For the website with information about the conference, what we had the last 2 
>years was hopelessly over-engineered. There is need for some fairly advanced 
>templating, which allows for the display of banner ads, unified dropdown 
>menus and such, but the content management behind has really been in the way 
>of collaborative work on the website. The ideal solution from my horizon 
>would be a very small directory tree with a simple include mechanism and 
>files written in either xhtml or Rest. The webserver would handle the 
>includes, the Rest translations and finally fill in the dynamic content 
>before serving up a webpage. Doing Plone or CPS for handling a site of about 
>25 web pages is as impractical as shooting mosquitos with an anti-aircraft 
>gun.
>
>Jacob Hall?n
>  
>

There are 120 pages on the current europython site (not 25). Doing that 
on a wiki with banners, menus, ... is not completely as trivial as you 
suggest (see for instance what you'll get with a wiki 
http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon2006 )

Concerning registration most conferences I've attended handled 
registration via email or via fax (cf 
http://www.python.org/pycon/2006/register.html) or via simple HTML/CGI 
forms. They certainly use some desktop software to organize talks, 
attendees, schedules, but I don't see the value of doing this through 
the web. It is definitely overkill and cumbersome as it proved out to be 
during last year's conference.

/JM

From jacob at strakt.com  Thu Jan 26 15:17:21 2006
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob Hallen)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:17:21 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Python conference software
In-Reply-To: <43D7C37E.9040003@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
	<200601251738.57132.jacob@strakt.com>
	<43D7C37E.9040003@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <200601261517.21868.jacob@strakt.com>

onsdag 25 januari 2006 19.29 skrev Jean-Marc Orliaguet:
> Jacob Hallen wrote:
> >This said, I'll be just as happy not doing registration with the CAPS
> > system, as it would require a bit of work from me. However, I think that
> > the CAPS system encapsulates the lessons we have learned in a way that
> > the other proposals are unlikely to do.
> >
> >For the website with information about the conference, what we had the
> > last 2 years was hopelessly over-engineered. There is need for some
> > fairly advanced templating, which allows for the display of banner ads,
> > unified dropdown menus and such, but the content management behind has
> > really been in the way of collaborative work on the website. The ideal
> > solution from my horizon would be a very small directory tree with a
> > simple include mechanism and files written in either xhtml or Rest. The
> > webserver would handle the includes, the Rest translations and finally
> > fill in the dynamic content before serving up a webpage. Doing Plone or
> > CPS for handling a site of about 25 web pages is as impractical as
> > shooting mosquitos with an anti-aircraft gun.
> >
> >Jacob Hall?n
>
> There are 120 pages on the current europython site (not 25). Doing that
> on a wiki with banners, menus, ... is not completely as trivial as you
> suggest (see for instance what you'll get with a wiki
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon2006 )

I count 25 distinct pages that are viewable by visitors to the site, plus a 
few off-site links. I don't know what the other 95 pages do. They seem to be 
overhead to me.

I'm not suggesting that building the website is completely trivial.I'm saying 
that the solutions we have seen so far have made the job more difficult than 
it needs to be. Laura Creighton and I were the main content providers both 
for the 2005 and the 2004 conferences. We found that Plone imposed a number 
of limitations on the overall look of the website, and that it had a 
cumbersome interface for entering content. CPS fixed the limitations of the 
overall look, but imposed arbitrary limitations on page design (for instance, 
I could not scale pictures as I liked). It also has a workflow model that is 
unsuitable for close collaboration on individual pages,as you are supposed to 
develop pages in your own sandbox and then publish them. We ended up building 
everything in the published space and giving full privileges to everything to 
everyone wanting to do any modifications. 
 
> Concerning registration most conferences I've attended handled
> registration via email or via fax (cf
> http://www.python.org/pycon/2006/register.html) or via simple HTML/CGI
> forms. They certainly use some desktop software to organize talks,
> attendees, schedules, but I don't see the value of doing this through
> the web. It is definitely overkill and cumbersome as it proved out to be
> during last year's conference.

For these conferences, how did they produce badges? How did they produce 
invoices? How much time did they spend on handling administrative matters? 
How many problems tracking payments did they have? What sort of organisation 
did they have backing the conference (perhaps that organisation already had 
an accounting system and a secretary doing a whole lot of typing)? Did they 
actually take into account the individual preferences of the attendees, or 
did they just create a schedule on speculation? Were the organisers, each 
with his own needs for information, spread over a whole continent? How did 
they distribute proceedings? How much did their overheads cost?

What did you consider to be cumbersome with the handling of talks and 
scheduling during last years conference?

Jacob Hall?n

From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Jan 26 15:22:24 2006
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:22:24 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Python conference software
In-Reply-To: <200601261517.21868.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
	<200601251738.57132.jacob@strakt.com>
	<43D7C37E.9040003@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200601261517.21868.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <43D8DB20.6020708@ita.chalmers.se>

Jacob Hallen wrote:

>onsdag 25 januari 2006 19.29 skrev Jean-Marc Orliaguet:
>  
>
>>Jacob Hallen wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>This said, I'll be just as happy not doing registration with the CAPS
>>>system, as it would require a bit of work from me. However, I think that
>>>the CAPS system encapsulates the lessons we have learned in a way that
>>>the other proposals are unlikely to do.
>>>
>>>For the website with information about the conference, what we had the
>>>last 2 years was hopelessly over-engineered. There is need for some
>>>fairly advanced templating, which allows for the display of banner ads,
>>>unified dropdown menus and such, but the content management behind has
>>>really been in the way of collaborative work on the website. The ideal
>>>solution from my horizon would be a very small directory tree with a
>>>simple include mechanism and files written in either xhtml or Rest. The
>>>webserver would handle the includes, the Rest translations and finally
>>>fill in the dynamic content before serving up a webpage. Doing Plone or
>>>CPS for handling a site of about 25 web pages is as impractical as
>>>shooting mosquitos with an anti-aircraft gun.
>>>
>>>Jacob Hall?n
>>>      
>>>
>>There are 120 pages on the current europython site (not 25). Doing that
>>on a wiki with banners, menus, ... is not completely as trivial as you
>>suggest (see for instance what you'll get with a wiki
>>http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon2006 )
>>    
>>
>
>I count 25 distinct pages that are viewable by visitors to the site, plus a 
>few off-site links. I don't know what the other 95 pages do. They seem to be 
>overhead to me.
>
>I'm not suggesting that building the website is completely trivial.I'm saying 
>that the solutions we have seen so far have made the job more difficult than 
>it needs to be. Laura Creighton and I were the main content providers both 
>for the 2005 and the 2004 conferences. We found that Plone imposed a number 
>of limitations on the overall look of the website, and that it had a 
>cumbersome interface for entering content. CPS fixed the limitations of the 
>overall look, but imposed arbitrary limitations on page design (for instance, 
>I could not scale pictures as I liked). It also has a workflow model that is 
>unsuitable for close collaboration on individual pages,as you are supposed to 
>develop pages in your own sandbox and then publish them. We ended up building 
>everything in the published space and giving full privileges to everything to 
>everyone wanting to do any modifications. 
> 
>  
>

Images are scaled down to a certain limit to avoid breaking the page's 
design, the size might have been increased at will.

Concerning the workflow, you misunderstood how it works hence you draw 
hasty conclusions. You are not supposed to create documents "in your own 
sandbox". Documents are created inside common workspaces. Contributors 
who have access to the workspaces can share documents as on a wiki, 
before publishing them.


>>Concerning registration most conferences I've attended handled
>>registration via email or via fax (cf
>>http://www.python.org/pycon/2006/register.html) or via simple HTML/CGI
>>forms. They certainly use some desktop software to organize talks,
>>attendees, schedules, but I don't see the value of doing this through
>>the web. It is definitely overkill and cumbersome as it proved out to be
>>during last year's conference.
>>    
>>
>
>For these conferences, how did they produce badges? How did they produce 
>invoices? How much time did they spend on handling administrative matters? 
>How many problems tracking payments did they have? What sort of organisation 
>did they have backing the conference (perhaps that organisation already had 
>an accounting system and a secretary doing a whole lot of typing)? Did they 
>actually take into account the individual preferences of the attendees, or 
>did they just create a schedule on speculation? Were the organisers, each 
>with his own needs for information, spread over a whole continent? How did 
>they distribute proceedings? How much did their overheads cost?
>
>What did you consider to be cumbersome with the handling of talks and 
>scheduling during last years conference?
>
>Jacob Hall?n
>  
>

I don't know how others do, they certainly use excel, MS word.

I got the impression that it was an alpha version which was running last 
year, considering all the manual fixes that were done once the 
registration had opened. The security was very low since anyone could 
edit other's presentations.

I'm simply saying that all the manual work that you did to get the 
system running might as well been spent on some desktop application 
instead. You may have spent more time building and fixing the system 
than the time that would have been needed to do the administrative work.

/JM

From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Jan 26 15:56:51 2006
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:56:51 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Python conference software
In-Reply-To: <200601261517.21868.jacob@strakt.com>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>	<200601251738.57132.jacob@strakt.com>	<43D7C37E.9040003@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200601261517.21868.jacob@strakt.com>
Message-ID: <43D8E333.3060000@ita.chalmers.se>


uh, this discussion, IMNSHO, is rapidly becoming non-interesting. And I 
am a bit upset at seeing the same discussion popup again and again.

So, can we please just decide on what software to use? I am not 
interested in, at least as I perceive it, this covert blame-game that is 
currently going on.

What happened, happende, let's not let it happen again. The problems we 
had we had were had for specific reasons - most of them had nothing to 
do with the technology.

Bottom line: is the software ready or not?

We need NOT to integrate the website with INFORMATION on the conference 
with any other conference reg.system, automated or manual. I've managed 
larger conferences that EPC without any automated systems. ust a website 
with info (edicted with a texteditor).

So, how much time do folks that have interests in EPC using their 
software need to set up working environments so that the rest of us can 
evaluate?

Perhaps there are more people than just Strakt and CERN interested in 
having their software evaluated?

We need to have a decision on this soon. And please - let's keep the 
requirements at a sensible and practical level.

Is 10 days enough time for the interested parties to set their systems up?

/dario

-- 
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.
Lyrics applied to programming & application design:
"emancipate yourself from mental slavery" - redemption song, b. marley

From lac at strakt.com  Thu Jan 26 20:29:41 2006
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 20:29:41 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Python conference software
In-Reply-To: Message from =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=
	<dario@ita.chalmers.se> of "Thu,
	26 Jan 2006 15:56:51 +0100." <43D8E333.3060000@ita.chalmers.se> 
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
	<200601251738.57132.jacob@strakt.com>
	<43D7C37E.9040003@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200601261517.21868.jacob@strakt.com>
	<43D8E333.3060000@ita.chalmers.se> 
Message-ID: <200601261929.k0QJTfEm004936@theraft.strakt.com>

In a message of Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:56:51 +0100, Dario Lopez-K?sten writes:
>
>uh, this discussion, IMNSHO, is rapidly becoming non-interesting. And I 
>am a bit upset at seeing the same discussion popup again and again.
>
>So, can we please just decide on what software to use? I am not 
>interested in, at least as I perceive it, this covert blame-game that is 
>currently going on.

This is not blame.  This is a complete and unreconciable difference of
opinion as to what is desirable in the way to do work.  There is an
important difference.  There is a reason why Python has dozens and
dozens of webframeworks and workflow systems.  People who start off
using any one often end up really unhappy because the design of the
system does not match the way that they want to structure the work.
And when they get really unhappy, they go off and write their own
system.

>What happened, happende, let's not let it happen again. The problems we 
>had we had were had for specific reasons - most of them had nothing to 
>do with the technology.

They had everything to do with the technology, and whether the
technology made it possible for them to do what it was they wanted to
do in the way that they wanted to do it, or whether some things
'just couldn't be done' or 'were easier to do manually' and so on
and so forth.  These are the very working conditions that make people
decide that one technology does not suit their needs and go get, or
write another one.

But given our diverse community, it is not surprising that we cannot
find a fit which suits everybody.  Consider CherryPy, to pick
something that we aren't using, and as far as I know are not
considering using, so should not unduly stress people out.  I have
heard both of these comments about CherryPy's likeness to PHP.  It is
'a major strength that allows people to work in ways they prefer and
enjoy', or 'an abomination, like the PHP it resembles, that makes it
working with it an intolerable experience'.  There is no hope in
getting these two reviewers to meet in some happy middle.  You might,
if you worked hard at it, create a work experience that both of them
dislike, but pleasing them both is impossible.

There is a reason why we have so many webframeworks, and that does
not reflect badly on us.  People really, really, really do care about
how they work, and really prefer to do things in ways that other people
hate.  Indeed, the same feature _often_ works that way.  

>Bottom line: is the software ready or not?
>
>We need NOT to integrate the website with INFORMATION on the conference 
>with any other conference reg.system, automated or manual. I've managed 
>larger conferences that EPC without any automated systems. ust a website 
>with info (edicted with a texteditor).

What is relevant is whether the people who plan to manage EP2006 want
integration, most definitely do not want integration, or do not care.

>So, how much time do folks that have interests in EPC using their 
>software need to set up working environments so that the rest of us can 
>evaluate?

I think that, should there be any evaluation to be done, only the
people who have already planned to do a lot of work in organising the
conference should do it.  Otherwise we risk getting a system based on
the needs and desires of irrelevant people.

So if CERN is full of people who are already familiar with the
CERN system and prefer to use it because it is what they know and are
familiar with, then that would be reason enough for me to conclude
they should use it.  My problem is that so far I haven't heard from
any knowledgable CERN system people.  The people who were pushing
it, were doing so, despite being unfamiliar with it.  This is 
Proof by 'it must work, lots of people have used it'.

But if there is one thing we have figured out, in enormous detail, is
that 'working for lots of people' does not imply 'working for you' or
even 'having what you would consider the most elementary and 
necessary features implemented'.  People implement features in 
accordance to what they consider 'essential' and the variation 
among different tools is large.

>Perhaps there are more people than just Strakt and CERN interested in 
>having their software evaluated?
>
>We need to have a decision on this soon. And please - let's keep the 
>requirements at a sensible and practical level.

This is the problem.  What one person considers 'an unreasonable
requirement' somebody else considers 'an essential requirement'.

>
>Is 10 days enough time for the interested parties to set their systems up
>?
>
>/dario

What I would like to see is a discussion, or a report, or something
from the CERN Europython organising team as to what it is that they
want, in freatures, usability, whatever-.  Now it may be that they are
feeling inhibited in discussing it, because they would in general
discuss this in French.  I'd say, discuss or post it in French.  I'd
just like to make sure that you know what you want, ahead of time,
and, should you prefer to use one system or another, that you have
some reason for using it beyond 'it was developed here and we feel we
have to use it' or 'why not?', or 'somebody told me it was cool'.

Because I have already gone through the 'we should use some system
because somebody else likes it' route.  And the 'I never thought about
it much, but surely any system would work in some reasonable way, they
way I consider reasonable ... it ought to have the appropriate
capabilities, even though I have never used it, just because' route.
This is an invitation to an unbelievable amount of stress.  You can
make yourself sick over this.  I want to spare you all this agony.

I really and truly believe that the conference organisers should use a
system they like and enjoy using. If you don't have a candidate,
possibly because you have never used a system and you want to go try
the Strakt system, to see if you like it, then we can set something
up.  If you already have some other system you know and love, this is
fine with me too.

The other thing this report would be useful for is to locate: 'who
besides Benedikt is organising this thing'?  Even with track chairs,
Europython is way to much work for one person to handle the 'onsite
preparation details'.  If Benedikt needs help, then we need to hear
about this as soon as possible.

take care all,
Laura




From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Jan 26 21:30:37 2006
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:30:37 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Python conference software
In-Reply-To: <200601261929.k0QJTfEm004936@theraft.strakt.com>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>	<200601251738.57132.jacob@strakt.com>	<43D7C37E.9040003@ita.chalmers.se>	<200601261517.21868.jacob@strakt.com>	<43D8E333.3060000@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200601261929.k0QJTfEm004936@theraft.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <43D9316D.1090402@ita.chalmers.se>

Laura Creighton wrote:

> .....
>
>
>But given our diverse community, it is not surprising that we cannot
>find a fit which suits everybody.  Consider CherryPy, to pick
>something that we aren't using, and as far as I know are not
>considering using, so should not unduly stress people out.  I have
>heard both of these comments about CherryPy's likeness to PHP.  It is
>'a major strength that allows people to work in ways they prefer and
>enjoy', or 'an abomination, like the PHP it resembles, that makes it
>working with it an intolerable experience'.  There is no hope in
>getting these two reviewers to meet in some happy middle.  You might,
>if you worked hard at it, create a work experience that both of them
>dislike, but pleasing them both is impossible.
>
>There is a reason why we have so many webframeworks, and that does
>not reflect badly on us.  People really, really, really do care about
>how they work, and really prefer to do things in ways that other people
>hate.  Indeed, the same feature _often_ works that way.  
>  
>


But finding a framework that pleases everyone has never been the goal. 
The important point has been to get a site up and running that 
*visitors* are pleased with. That Plone's or CPS' workflow model do not 
fit your frame of mind is of very little interest.

we had a student who came one afternoon and created the "getting around 
g?teborg" pages 
(http://www.europython.org/sections/location/getting_around_the_g/bp_to_ep) 
and it took 5 minutes before he could start using the software.

Which is why I still don't understand what you are bitching about 
concerning the site .. If you can't learn different ways of working with 
software than the ones you are used with, then I would say that it is a 
problem of yours in the first place. 

/JM

 

From cs at comlounge.net  Thu Jan 26 22:01:15 2006
From: cs at comlounge.net (Christian Scholz)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:01:15 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Python conference software
In-Reply-To: <43D9316D.1090402@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>	<200601251738.57132.jacob@strakt.com>	<43D7C37E.9040003@ita.chalmers.se>	<200601261517.21868.jacob@strakt.com>	<43D8E333.3060000@ita.chalmers.se>	<200601261929.k0QJTfEm004936@theraft.strakt.com>
	<43D9316D.1090402@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <43D9389B.60108@comlounge.net>

Hi!

Just a note from sort of an outsider..

I don't know what actually went wrong with the systems used before
(though I would be interested in what sort of things these systems could
not provide. But this only via PM to not bloat this thread).
But IMHO things should calm down here again. I think most of the systems
can be tailored in a way that a) the editors can work with them and b)
the visitors can use. The latter should be even more subject to some
designer/visual communicator than to a programmer. The programmer should
just make it fit. Speaking of the first thing in an ideal situation
there should be some analysis before in what they need and so on.

As it seems that Benedikt (and who else?) proposed their system as they
are used to it I don't see any problem in why not just using it.
Information about the conference in general never seemed that much and
can in the worst case simply be done in simple HTML. But again here
should these people decide who actually do the editing. As stated above
I think that the appearance to the visitor should be tweakable with
nearly every system. And somehow combining different system should also
be no problem (e.g. using some Apache rewrite rules, iframes or whatever).

So it might be of interest

a) who will actually be providing the information
b) what system do they prefer to use and (if no system is preferred)
c) what are the requirements

maybe also

d) what system parts must be there? (information, registering, talk
database etc.)

Don't know if that mail helps but I was just wondering that choosing the
system for the website is the main problem ;-)

-- christian

--
Christian Scholz/COM.lounge
cs at comlounge.net
http://mrtopf.tv
http://comlounge.net
http://dev.comlounge.net


From lac at strakt.com  Thu Jan 26 23:01:39 2006
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:01:39 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Python conference software
In-Reply-To: Message from Jean-Marc Orliaguet <jmo@ita.chalmers.se> of "Thu,
	26 Jan 2006 21:30:37 +0100." <43D9316D.1090402@ita.chalmers.se> 
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
	<200601251738.57132.jacob@strakt.com>
	<43D7C37E.9040003@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200601261517.21868.jacob@strakt.com>
	<43D8E333.3060000@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200601261929.k0QJTfEm004936@theraft.strakt.com>
	<43D9316D.1090402@ita.chalmers.se> 
Message-ID: <200601262201.k0QM1d7p011360@theraft.strakt.com>

In a message of Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:30:37 +0100, Jean-Marc Orliaguet writes:
>Laura Creighton wrote:
>
>> .....
>>
>>
>>But given our diverse community, it is not surprising that we cannot
>>find a fit which suits everybody.  Consider CherryPy, to pick
>>something that we aren't using, and as far as I know are not
>>considering using, so should not unduly stress people out.  I have
>>heard both of these comments about CherryPy's likeness to PHP.  It is
>>'a major strength that allows people to work in ways they prefer and
>>enjoy', or 'an abomination, like the PHP it resembles, that makes it
>>working with it an intolerable experience'.  There is no hope in
>>getting these two reviewers to meet in some happy middle.  You might,
>>if you worked hard at it, create a work experience that both of them
>>dislike, but pleasing them both is impossible.
>>
>>There is a reason why we have so many webframeworks, and that does
>>not reflect badly on us.  People really, really, really do care about
>>how they work, and really prefer to do things in ways that other people
>>hate.  Indeed, the same feature _often_ works that way.  
>>  
>>
>
>
>But finding a framework that pleases everyone has never been the goal. 
>The important point has been to get a site up and running that 
>*visitors* are pleased with. That Plone's or CPS' workflow model do not 
>fit your frame of mind is of very little interest.

You see, this is a fundamental point of disagreement.  In my frame of
reference, the tools that matter most are the tools that are used by
the conference organisers to organise the conference.  Then come the
tools that help people produce content.  Then come usability issues
for the webvisitors, including, but not restricted to the tools that
make the website searchable.  If all of these work well, the visitors
will get an experience which they enjoy, without being aware of where
the work has gone into making the experience enjoyable.

On the other hand, if the way of working is too hard, or too unpleasant,
then the people who were signed up to do it will go away or do less or
be busy with other problems in the workflow to get involved with more
complicated things.  The visitors will be unhappy, but in a way that
'putting the website first' will not address.

>we had a student who came one afternoon and created the "getting around 
>g?teborg" pages 
>(http://www.europython.org/sections/location/getting_around_the_g/bp_to_e
>p) 
>and it took 5 minutes before he could start using the software.

yes. This is one of my great failures.  There were supposed to be
six of them.  But 1 dropped out for unknown reasons, and the
other 4 all cited 'I don't want to use this software' as a
reason why they just mailed me what they could, and left things in
my lap.

This happened a lot.  People who were supposed to find things
'easier to use than pure Zope' found them 'restrictive enough
that I would prefer not to'.  Europython potential volunteers
apparantly contain a set of people who like to take things 
exactly as they are handed to them, and those who find that
computing is all about 'the customising of life to suit'.

>Which is why I still don't understand what you are bitching about 
>concerning the site .. If you can't learn different ways of working with 
>software than the ones you are used with, then I would say that it is a 
>problem of yours in the first place. 
>
>/JM

yes, I understand this.  But the problem isn't that I 'cannot learn
different ways' as might be witnessed by all the work I have done no
matter what system.  My problem is not that I cannot do it, but that
I cannot get the functionality I want out of it to make the
experience pleasant.  Or efficient.  

I am also a LISP programmer bigot.  I completely reject the
notion of separating 'code' from 'data'.  I am also an emacs rather
than vi person.  I hate the notion of modes altogether, which I
believe is related to my notion that the separation of code from 
data is evil, but am not certain.

That I expect more from a system than what I get,
and I expect different from a system from what I get, does not
imply 'oh she could get it if only she knew it better' but
instead that the whole goals of the system are different than
the ones I have in my mind when	I wanted one.

My experience in using Plone exactly matches the person who was
unhappy she they bought an automobile when she really wanted a
motorboat believing what she was told that 'after all they are both
transportation'.  It doesn't mean that Plone makes a bad automobile.
It does mean that the conversion of an automobile into 'something that
floats' will not be easy.

What I want to ensure is that the next organising body, should it
want a thing that floats, gets one that does so.  Or whatever the
heck it is that it wants.  What I want to destroy is the idea that
'pretty much any system will be ok, because they do not matter
a lot'.

Laura

From nicolas.chauvat at logilab.fr  Thu Jan 26 23:22:09 2006
From: nicolas.chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:22:09 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Python conference software
In-Reply-To: <43D9316D.1090402@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
	<200601251738.57132.jacob@strakt.com>
	<43D7C37E.9040003@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200601261517.21868.jacob@strakt.com>
	<43D8E333.3060000@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200601261929.k0QJTfEm004936@theraft.strakt.com>
	<43D9316D.1090402@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <20060126222209.GA15416@crater.logilab.fr>

On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 09:30:37PM +0100, Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
> Which is why I still don't understand what you are bitching about 
> concerning the site .. If you can't learn different ways of working with 
> software than the ones you are used with, then I would say that it is a 
> problem of yours in the first place. 

I am sure that you realize calling other people names is not helping.

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances  

From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Jan 26 23:11:33 2006
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:11:33 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Python conference software
In-Reply-To: <200601262201.k0QM1d7p011360@theraft.strakt.com>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
	<200601251738.57132.jacob@strakt.com>
	<43D7C37E.9040003@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200601261517.21868.jacob@strakt.com>
	<43D8E333.3060000@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200601261929.k0QJTfEm004936@theraft.strakt.com>
	<43D9316D.1090402@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200601262201.k0QM1d7p011360@theraft.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <43D94915.20308@ita.chalmers.se>

Laura Creighton wrote:

>In a message of Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:30:37 +0100, Jean-Marc Orliaguet writes:
>  
>
>>
>>But finding a framework that pleases everyone has never been the goal. 
>>The important point has been to get a site up and running that 
>>*visitors* are pleased with. That Plone's or CPS' workflow model do not 
>>fit your frame of mind is of very little interest.
>>    
>>
>
>You see, this is a fundamental point of disagreement.  In my frame of
>reference, the tools that matter most are the tools that are used by
>the conference organisers to organise the conference.  Then come the
>tools that help people produce content.  Then come usability issues
>for the webvisitors, including, but not restricted to the tools that
>make the website searchable.  If all of these work well, the visitors
>will get an experience which they enjoy, without being aware of where
>the work has gone into making the experience enjoyable.
>
>On the other hand, if the way of working is too hard, or too unpleasant,
>then the people who were signed up to do it will go away or do less or
>be busy with other problems in the workflow to get involved with more
>complicated things.  The visitors will be unhappy, but in a way that
>'putting the website first' will not address.
>
>  
>

This does not seem very professional from those who are saying that they 
want to contribute in the first place. If you sign up to do a job, you 
can't just blame it on the software as an excuse for not doing what you 
said you would be willing to do.
 
Providing software is not the same thing as getting commitment from 
contributors.
 

>>we had a student who came one afternoon and created the "getting around 
>>g?teborg" pages 
>>(http://www.europython.org/sections/location/getting_around_the_g/bp_to_e
>>p) 
>>and it took 5 minutes before he could start using the software.
>>    
>>
>
>yes. This is one of my great failures.  There were supposed to be
>six of them.  But 1 dropped out for unknown reasons, and the
>other 4 all cited 'I don't want to use this software' as a
>reason why they just mailed me what they could, and left things in
>my lap.
>
>  
>

This is the problem with volunteering, and open-source projects in 
general: you are free to quit when things are no longer fun.

You should be made it clear that the job was not about evaluating 
software but about using it.

>This happened a lot.  People who were supposed to find things
>'easier to use than pure Zope' found them 'restrictive enough
>that I would prefer not to'.  Europython potential volunteers
>apparantly contain a set of people who like to take things 
>exactly as they are handed to them, and those who find that
>computing is all about 'the customising of life to suit'.
>
>  
>

The solution is about setting rules. If some people consider that 
organizing a conference is mainly about trying different frameworks 
maybe they should consider doing something else as a hobby?

>>Which is why I still don't understand what you are bitching about 
>>concerning the site .. If you can't learn different ways of working with 
>>software than the ones you are used with, then I would say that it is a 
>>problem of yours in the first place. 
>>
>>/JM
>>    
>>
>
>yes, I understand this.  But the problem isn't that I 'cannot learn
>different ways' as might be witnessed by all the work I have done no
>matter what system.  My problem is not that I cannot do it, but that
>I cannot get the functionality I want out of it to make the
>experience pleasant.  Or efficient.  
>
>I am also a LISP programmer bigot.  I completely reject the
>notion of separating 'code' from 'data'.  I am also an emacs rather
>than vi person.  I hate the notion of modes altogether, which I
>believe is related to my notion that the separation of code from 
>data is evil, but am not certain.
>
>That I expect more from a system than what I get,
>and I expect different from a system from what I get, does not
>imply 'oh she could get it if only she knew it better' but
>instead that the whole goals of the system are different than
>the ones I have in my mind when	I wanted one.
>
>My experience in using Plone exactly matches the person who was
>unhappy she they bought an automobile when she really wanted a
>motorboat believing what she was told that 'after all they are both
>transportation'.  It doesn't mean that Plone makes a bad automobile.
>It does mean that the conversion of an automobile into 'something that
>floats' will not be easy.
>
>What I want to ensure is that the next organising body, should it
>want a thing that floats, gets one that does so.  Or whatever the
>heck it is that it wants.  What I want to destroy is the idea that
>'pretty much any system will be ok, because they do not matter
>a lot'.
>
>Laura
>  
>

I agree, but if you are supposed to use a piece of paper and a pen to 
write an essay, are you going to complain about how bad the tools were 
for writing and how much better a typewriter would have been as an 
excuse for not having written the essay?

/JM


From nicolas.chauvat at logilab.fr  Fri Jan 27 00:02:22 2006
From: nicolas.chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:02:22 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Python conference software
In-Reply-To: <43D94915.20308@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
	<200601251738.57132.jacob@strakt.com>
	<43D7C37E.9040003@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200601261517.21868.jacob@strakt.com>
	<43D8E333.3060000@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200601261929.k0QJTfEm004936@theraft.strakt.com>
	<43D9316D.1090402@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200601262201.k0QM1d7p011360@theraft.strakt.com>
	<43D94915.20308@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <20060126230222.GF15416@crater.logilab.fr>

On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 11:11:33PM +0100, Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
> I agree, but if you are supposed to use a piece of paper and a pen to 
> write an essay, are you going to complain about how bad the tools were 
> for writing and how much better a typewriter would have been as an 
> excuse for not having written the essay?

In this case she got her company to provide the software she needed to
do the job. I do not call that an "excuse for not writing the essay".

Whoever does the work choses the tools. If CPS gets dropped then so be
it. Plone was dropped before it (and *I*', among others, had spent
time with it) and pure Zope was dropped before that (and *I*, among
others, had spent time as well).  EuroPython happened whatever tool
got used. I am sure it will happen again this year even if the
organizers decide to work with Dreamweaver[*].

Oh, and actually what Jacob was proposing (rest documents stored in
svn and turned to html) was far from stupid, but since he is not the
one scheduled to do the work he does not get to chose either :)

Could this stop now? Could we let Benedikt and whoever is commited to
take care of the site go ahead with what they want to use?

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances  

*: I was told some people actually make web sites with it.

From asouzaleite at gmx.de  Fri Jan 27 08:13:52 2006
From: asouzaleite at gmx.de (Aroldo Souza-Leite)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 08:13:52 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Python conference software
In-Reply-To: <20060126230222.GF15416@crater.logilab.fr>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>	<200601251738.57132.jacob@strakt.com>	<43D7C37E.9040003@ita.chalmers.se>	<200601261517.21868.jacob@strakt.com>	<43D8E333.3060000@ita.chalmers.se>	<200601261929.k0QJTfEm004936@theraft.strakt.com>	<43D9316D.1090402@ita.chalmers.se>	<200601262201.k0QM1d7p011360@theraft.strakt.com>	<43D94915.20308@ita.chalmers.se>
	<20060126230222.GF15416@crater.logilab.fr>
Message-ID: <43D9C830.3000508@gmx.de>

Hi list,

every now and then in his or her life every serious-minded carpenter has 
to face a quarrel in the inner family about their own living-room 
furniture.

Of course the ones who need (or perhaps need not) a conference org tool 
for the next round have absolute priority and should urgently state what 
they want - the rest of us abide. But I learned a lot from this 
discussion. As a result I think the Python community is beautiful even 
in moments of pain. The only form of suffering that sanctifies is honesty.


Cheers,

Aroldo.


From jmo at ita.chalmers.se  Fri Jan 27 09:36:46 2006
From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:36:46 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Python conference software
In-Reply-To: <20060126230222.GF15416@crater.logilab.fr>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
	<200601251738.57132.jacob@strakt.com>
	<43D7C37E.9040003@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200601261517.21868.jacob@strakt.com>
	<43D8E333.3060000@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200601261929.k0QJTfEm004936@theraft.strakt.com>
	<43D9316D.1090402@ita.chalmers.se>
	<200601262201.k0QM1d7p011360@theraft.strakt.com>
	<43D94915.20308@ita.chalmers.se>
	<20060126230222.GF15416@crater.logilab.fr>
Message-ID: <43D9DB9E.8000202@ita.chalmers.se>

Nicolas Chauvat wrote:

>On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 11:11:33PM +0100, Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:
>  
>
>>I agree, but if you are supposed to use a piece of paper and a pen to 
>>write an essay, are you going to complain about how bad the tools were 
>>for writing and how much better a typewriter would have been as an 
>>excuse for not having written the essay?
>>    
>>
>
>In this case she got her company to provide the software she needed to
>do the job. I do not call that an "excuse for not writing the essay".
>
>Whoever does the work choses the tools. If CPS gets dropped then so be
>it. Plone was dropped before it (and *I*', among others, had spent
>time with it) and pure Zope was dropped before that (and *I*, among
>others, had spent time as well).  EuroPython happened whatever tool
>got used. I am sure it will happen again this year even if the
>organizers decide to work with Dreamweaver[*].
>
>Oh, and actually what Jacob was proposing (rest documents stored in
>svn and turned to html) was far from stupid, but since he is not the
>one scheduled to do the work he does not get to chose either :)
>
>Could this stop now? Could we let Benedikt and whoever is commited to
>take care of the site go ahead with what they want to use?
>
>  
>

FYI, you missed the point.
My comments were not about the tools; it was about commitment from 
participants.

I have no suggestion whatsoever concerning the tools that are going to 
be used this year:

Participants propose the solutions they like, and once a solution has 
been selected by a common agreement (as it was done on IRC during a 
meething in december las year), the contributors should get in 
"contribution mode", not in the "I-don't-like-the-software" mode or in 
the "I'm-going-to-evalute-the-workflow" mode.

Organizing a conference is not about evaluating or selling software.


/JM



From jacob at strakt.com  Sat Jan 28 18:59:06 2006
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:59:06 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] Python conference software
In-Reply-To: <43D9DB9E.8000202@ita.chalmers.se>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
	<20060126230222.GF15416@crater.logilab.fr>
	<43D9DB9E.8000202@ita.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <200601281859.08263.jacob@strakt.com>

fredagen den 27 januari 2006 09.36 skrev Jean-Marc Orliaguet:

> FYI, you missed the point.
> My comments were not about the tools; it was about commitment from
> participants.
>
> I have no suggestion whatsoever concerning the tools that are going to
> be used this year:
>
> Participants propose the solutions they like, and once a solution has
> been selected by a common agreement (as it was done on IRC during a
> meething in december las year), the contributors should get in
> "contribution mode", not in the "I-don't-like-the-software" mode or in
> the "I'm-going-to-evalute-the-workflow" mode.
>
> Organizing a conference is not about evaluating or selling software.

My comments were about my experiences from last year. They are of course 
subjective, but I think it was important for the organisers of this years 
conference to know what worked well, what problems I encountered and what 
sort of things they are expected to produce. Having these things show up as 
nasty surprises late in the process is not a good thing. For instance, we had 
to manually make invoices for all people who wanted one at Europython 2004. 
This turned out to be about 200 people and each invoice took about 5 minutes, 
adding up to about 16 hours of staff time at the conference.

Benedikt and the other organisers have to make a decision on what software to 
use. I think they should do so with as much information about the problem to 
solve as well as the alternatives they have in order to be able to make the 
best decision.

From a personal standpoint, my offer to put more work into the CAPS system in 
order to improve on what we had last year still stands, should the organisers 
decide that they want to use this solution. If they go down a different 
route, I will be happy to respond to questions, but I will not not put 
efforts into building another system to suit Europython.

Jacob Hall?n

From mal at egenix.com  Sat Jan 28 23:21:04 2006
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 23:21:04 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] #europython minutes 23rd January 2006
In-Reply-To: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
Message-ID: <43DBEE50.8080108@egenix.com>

holger krekel wrote:
> * Renaming EuroPython to Pycon idea 
>   Holger mentions the idea of renaming EuroPython to Pycon. 
>   The idea is generally welcomed but a number of people think 
>   that we should not tackle this for 2006.  Everybody agrees
>   that heading for some more discussions with organisers 
>   from non-europe Python conferences e.g. at Pycon 2006 
>   makes sense.  The guiding idea is to have a worldwide 
>   naming/context umbrella for Python conferences. 

I like the idea.

Note that http://www.pycon.org/ already hints to such setup
and indeed, you'll find the US event under http://us.pycon.org/
since that was the idea behind the pycon.org domain.

Pointing eu.pycon.org to a PyCon Europe site would be easy
as well. Dito for e.g. PyCon Asia, PyCon Brazil, etc.

If you do intend to go down this route, you should probably
contact the PSF since it will probably have to give you the
OK to use the name (which I'm sure won't be a problem at all).

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Jan 28 2006)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try mxODBC.Zope.DA for Windows,Linux,Solaris,FreeBSD for free ! ::::

From hpk at trillke.net  Tue Jan 31 09:12:37 2006
From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:12:37 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] #europython minutes 23rd January 2006
In-Reply-To: <E6038AEF-C9A9-4721-802C-812D4AAAF593@zope-europe.org>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
	<E6038AEF-C9A9-4721-802C-812D4AAAF593@zope-europe.org>
Message-ID: <20060131081237.GW13417@solar.trillke.net>

On Mon, Jan 23, 2006 at 18:44 +0100, Paul Everitt wrote:
> On Jan 23, 2006, at 6:19 PM, holger krekel wrote:
> 
> > * Discussion about "Zope" track
> >
> >   Paul suggests to go for a "Web Frameworks Track" instead
> >   of limiting it to Zope.  He thinks that this should
> >   help to get more cross-pollination going within the
> >   python web framework communities.  There would likely
> >   be a quota on Zope talks then.  The ideas were welcomed
> >   by the attendees and will likely be followed up
> >   on the mailing list and on the upcoming track chair
> >   meeting.
> 
> To add some more background on this point, Zope would like to be less  
> of an island in the Python community.  I think Zope has much to  
> offer, especially in Zope 3, where interesting parts can be used in  
> isolation.  I also think Zope has lots to gain from Python and other  
> Python web frameworks.  There's tons of exciting stuff going on in  
> the Python web frameworks space.
> 
> Finally, I think Python itself is facing strong competition in Python  
> web frameworks.  We (the Python web frameworks) should recognize this  
> and work together more to tell a better story.

As you know this sounds good to me.  Let me add that i think that
it would be nice to reach outside the Python Web Frameworks 
development worlds - not so much thinking about Ruby on Rails 
but about Seaside (http://seaside.st) and possibly other approaches 
that leverage language features not existing in Python.  Inviting
people from those communities (or having a "PyPy possibilities workshop"
within the web track for that matter) may help to divert some 
"island" or competition thinking within Python webframework land :) 

cheers, 

    holger

From mwh at python.net  Tue Jan 31 10:59:43 2006
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:59:43 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] track chair meeting today #europython 1700 central
	european time
Message-ID: <2mk6cghg4w.fsf@starship.python.net>

As previously threatened, I'd like to hold a meeting of people wanting
to chair a track at this year's EuroPython tonight.  Ideally after
this meeting we'll know what tracks we are going to have and who's
going to chair them and be in a fit state to write a call for papers.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Famous remarks are very seldom quoted correctly.
                                                    -- Simeon Strunsky

From alexandre.fayolle at logilab.fr  Tue Jan 31 11:20:57 2006
From: alexandre.fayolle at logilab.fr (Alexandre Fayolle)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:20:57 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] track chair meeting today #europython 1700 central
	european time
In-Reply-To: <2mk6cghg4w.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <2mk6cghg4w.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <20060131102057.GF22539@crater.logilab.fr>

On Tue, Jan 31, 2006 at 09:59:43AM +0000, Michael Hudson wrote:
> As previously threatened, I'd like to hold a meeting of people wanting
> to chair a track at this year's EuroPython tonight.  Ideally after
> this meeting we'll know what tracks we are going to have and who's
> going to chair them and be in a fit state to write a call for papers.

Hi, 

Nicolas Chauvat intends to chair the 'Python in the Scientific Computing
domain' as he did for the previous editions of EPC. Unfortunately, he
won't be able to attend today's meeting, because he is busy on Logilab's
booth at Solution Linux 2006 in Paris which has started today.  

-- 
Alexandre Fayolle                              LOGILAB, Paris (France).
http://www.logilab.com   http://www.logilab.fr  http://www.logilab.org
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From asouzaleite at gmx.de  Tue Jan 31 11:33:17 2006
From: asouzaleite at gmx.de (Aroldo Souza-Leite)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:33:17 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] track chair meeting today #europython 1700 central
 european time
In-Reply-To: <2mk6cghg4w.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <2mk6cghg4w.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <43DF3CED.1010407@gmx.de>

Hi Michael,

again I don't know if I'll be at the meeting tonight, but I'm still 
applying for the Education Track, including, of course, the necessary 
jobs in the conference foreground ( looking for people, papers, etc).


Regards,

Aroldo.

Michael Hudson schrieb:

>As previously threatened, I'd like to hold a meeting of people wanting
>to chair a track at this year's EuroPython tonight.  Ideally after
>this meeting we'll know what tracks we are going to have and who's
>going to chair them and be in a fit state to write a call for papers.
>
>Cheers,
>mwh
>
>  
>


From mwh at python.net  Tue Jan 31 18:09:45 2006
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:09:45 +0000
Subject: [EuroPython] track chair meeting today #europython 1700 central
 european time
In-Reply-To: <2mk6cghg4w.fsf@starship.python.net> (Michael Hudson's message
	of "Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:59:43 +0000")
References: <2mk6cghg4w.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <2macdcgw86.fsf@starship.python.net>

Michael Hudson <mwh at python.net> writes:

> As previously threatened, I'd like to hold a meeting of people wanting
> to chair a track at this year's EuroPython tonight.  Ideally after
> this meeting we'll know what tracks we are going to have and who's
> going to chair them and be in a fit state to write a call for papers.

OK, the upshot of this was indeed a list of tracks and chairs,
something like this:

 holger/bea d - agile
 aiste/bea f - social skills
 nicolas - science
 paul/godefroid - zope/web
 samuele - python language and libraries
 john pinner/harald? - business again
 aroldo/lac - education/neophytes
 lac - misfits
 armin/carl - refereed papers

If your one of these people I'd like you to add a description of your
track to

    http://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython/2006/TrackDescriptions

within the next week (or email me or the list if the wiki doesn't like
you for some reason).

In addition, there are a few questions:

(1) What are the sizes and numbers of the rooms we've reserved?  I
    know I've seen this somewhere, I just forget where that was.

(2) How seriously do we want to run tutorials?  Charging extra, doing
    them on a separate day and splitting the costs with the giver of
    the tutorial or just a couple of long-ish talks on the first
    morning?  If we want to take them seriously, we could do with
    finding some energetic person to take care of them.

(3) I read in an old-ish maik that "CERN are interested in a strong
    science track and a strong neophytes track."  Is there someone at
    CERN who can help with making sure this happens?  I guess this
    means to some extent coordination with Nicolas and a marketing
    effort to find scientists who can give interesting talks and
    finding out what they want to learn about :)

The current plan calls for the CFP to go out on the 15th of February,
a little more than two weeks time.  Is this still on course?  I think
so, modulo website stuff...

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  It's an especially annoying American buzzword for "business use, 
  as opposed to consumer, research, or educational use".
                                    -- Tim Peters defines "enterprise"

From benedikt.hegner at cern.ch  Tue Jan 31 18:27:31 2006
From: benedikt.hegner at cern.ch (Benedikt Hegner)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 18:27:31 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] track chair meeting today #europython 1700 central
	european time
In-Reply-To: <2macdcgw86.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <2mk6cghg4w.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<2macdcgw86.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <364E261B-CEBC-4721-9C78-4AEC2F380FF1@cern.ch>

Hi all,

> (1) What are the sizes and numbers of the rooms we've reserved?  I
>     know I've seen this somewhere, I just forget where that was.
we have four rooms and open space for posters. The main auditorium is  
340. The others are about 100 plus space for two more rows.

> (2) How seriously do we want to run tutorials?  Charging extra, doing
>     them on a separate day and splitting the costs with the giver of
>     the tutorial or just a couple of long-ish talks on the first
>     morning?  If we want to take them seriously, we could do with
>     finding some energetic person to take care of them.
>
> (3) I read in an old-ish maik that "CERN are interested in a strong
>     science track and a strong neophytes track."  Is there someone at
>     CERN who can help with making sure this happens?  I guess this
>     means to some extent coordination with Nicolas and a marketing
>     effort to find scientists who can give interesting talks and
>     finding out what they want to learn about :)
One of us here in Geneva will help Nicolas with the Science Track.  
And I have already some possible speakers  in mind.

Cheers
Benedikt

From paul at zope-europe.org  Tue Jan 31 19:25:28 2006
From: paul at zope-europe.org (Paul Everitt)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:25:28 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] track chair meeting today #europython 1700 central
	european time
In-Reply-To: <2macdcgw86.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <2mk6cghg4w.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<2macdcgw86.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <96925124-B059-4DCB-B99B-D5159A9A713B@zope-europe.org>


On Jan 31, 2006, at 6:09 PM, Michael Hudson wrote:
> (2) How seriously do we want to run tutorials?  Charging extra, doing
>     them on a separate day and splitting the costs with the giver of
>     the tutorial or just a couple of long-ish talks on the first
>     morning?  If we want to take them seriously, we could do with
>     finding some energetic person to take care of them.

I totally agree.  The gap between "I think that's a must-do idea!"  
and "I volunteer to make it happen" is rather large. :^)

IMO, 50% of the tutorial givers approach is as a much-longer  
presentation.  It takes some good oversight to make sure the audience  
gets its money worth.

--Paul



From nicolas.chauvat at logilab.fr  Tue Jan 31 20:46:05 2006
From: nicolas.chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 20:46:05 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] #europython minutes 23rd January 2006
In-Reply-To: <20060131081237.GW13417@solar.trillke.net>
References: <20060123171948.GB13417@solar.trillke.net>
	<E6038AEF-C9A9-4721-802C-812D4AAAF593@zope-europe.org>
	<20060131081237.GW13417@solar.trillke.net>
Message-ID: <20060131194605.GC1644@crater.logilab.fr>

On Tue, Jan 31, 2006 at 09:12:37AM +0100, holger krekel wrote:
> but about Seaside (http://seaside.st) and possibly other approaches 
> that leverage language features not existing in Python. 

Sounds interesting. Do you have time to share pointers ?

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances  

From nicolas.chauvat at logilab.fr  Tue Jan 31 20:50:26 2006
From: nicolas.chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 20:50:26 +0100
Subject: [EuroPython] track chair meeting today #europython 1700 central
	european time
In-Reply-To: <364E261B-CEBC-4721-9C78-4AEC2F380FF1@cern.ch>
References: <2mk6cghg4w.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<2macdcgw86.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<364E261B-CEBC-4721-9C78-4AEC2F380FF1@cern.ch>
Message-ID: <20060131195026.GD1644@crater.logilab.fr>

On Tue, Jan 31, 2006 at 06:27:31PM +0100, Benedikt Hegner wrote:
> One of us here in Geneva will help Nicolas with the Science Track.  
> And I have already some possible speakers  in mind.

Nice. It is always better not to be the only one looking for speakers.

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances