From gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de Tue Jul 1 12:29:21 2003 From: gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 13:29:21 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Thanks / slides / image rights Message-ID: <4282B8FF-ABB7-11D7-AE14-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> Hi all, to Tom, Denis and all the rest deeply involved: thanks for an even greater follow-up conference!! It's been a pleasure to be there, again! To the track chairmen and speakers: I'd really like to see us collect (or send) the respective presentations in PDF format, so they can be hooked up on the website, very soon. Martijn, I'll send you mine later today... BTW, I'm writing a conference report and they want a nice picture to print. As I've made only four myself, I dare ask if anybody would just give me permission to use any of his/hers (to be con- firmed via private email - I promise a copy of the German paper issue in exchange and your name being mentioned), or if the or- ganizers would like to put some candidate pictures in some visible corner of the site explaining something like "these can be used for free for articles etc."? Big thanks! Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman ...................................................................... "Dans la vie, il n'y a pas de solutions. Il y a des forces en marche: il faut les cr=E9er, et les solutions suivent." (Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry)= From duncan@grisby.org Tue Jul 1 13:00:10 2003 From: duncan@grisby.org (Duncan Grisby) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:00:10 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Thanks / slides / image rights In-Reply-To: Message from Dinu Gherman of "Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:29:21 +0200." <4282B8FF-ABB7-11D7-AE14-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: <200307011200.h61C0AD01273@grisby.dyndns.org> On Tuesday 1 July, Dinu Gherman wrote: > BTW, I'm writing a conference report and they want a nice picture > to print. As I've made only four myself, I dare ask if anybody > would just give me permission to use any of his/hers (to be con- > firmed via private email - I promise a copy of the German paper > issue in exchange and your name being mentioned), or if the or- > ganizers would like to put some candidate pictures in some visible > corner of the site explaining something like "these can be used > for free for articles etc."? If anyone wants to use any of the photos I took, they're welcome to do so, as long as I am credited. If you need a higher resolution version, just ask and I'll send it to you. Dinu, I tried to email you directly, but your mail server bounced it, claiming I'm blacklisted. I don't know why. Cheers, Duncan. -- -- Duncan Grisby -- -- duncan@grisby.org -- -- http://www.grisby.org -- From Tom Deprez" Message-ID: <014801c34009$e9b2ac30$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> Hi Dinu, > to Tom, Denis and all the rest deeply involved: thanks for an even > greater follow-up conference!! It's been a pleasure to be there, > again! Thanks. We're glad you liked the conference. > To the track chairmen and speakers: I'd really like to see us > collect (or send) the respective presentations in PDF format, so > they can be hooked up on the website, very soon. Martijn, I'll > send you mine later today... Yep, more and more slides end up at the website. I just uploaded Guido's aswell. > BTW, I'm writing a conference report and they want a nice picture > to print. As I've made only four myself, I dare ask if anybody > would just give me permission to use any of his/hers (to be con- > firmed via private email - I promise a copy of the German paper > issue in exchange and your name being mentioned), or if the or- > ganizers would like to put some candidate pictures in some visible > corner of the site explaining something like "these can be used > for free for articles etc."? I haven't made the pictures, but I think that the pictures made by us, can be used without a problem. Mainly Jean-François and François took those pictures. Would it be possible to receive a copy of that German paper too? Regards, Tom. From denis@aragne.com Wed Jul 2 23:24:46 2003 From: denis@aragne.com (Denis =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E8re?=) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 00:24:46 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython 2004 [Was: Thank you all - where do we do the same thing next year?] In-Reply-To: <3EFCA6FD.3010107@iki.fi> References: <200306290903.38564.sf@fermigier.com> Message-ID: <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> Le Fri, Jun 27, 2003 at 09:20:13PM +0100, Heimo Laukkanen pianota: > Questions: > > - Where next year? Hi folks, After having slept a few nights on the EPC-2003, we have made up our minds : yes, we will organize the 2004 edition again ! Those of you with whom we discussed the point know that we had some reserve about it : that represents a significant time investment and moreover we can't even follow the talks we would like to hear. :-) But we are very motivated by your warm presence (that's always a great pleasure to have you all with us in Charleroi for a few days) and by the fact that we think that we can do much better. One of the parameters that we didn't care enough about (both first editions) is the time everything takes. Ask Zeomega : we received their poster only today, a bit late to expose it during the event... :-) So we also decided to begin early, i.e. now ! Starting now will permit us to invite a few stars, not only known in the Python community but also in the "outside world". If we want to make Python grow, we must attract people who aren't already convinced about Python. Starting now will permit us to have much more press contacts. So it will be much more interressant for all of you who want some publicity. Hence, it will allow us to get more sponsoring too. More sponsoring meaning more comfort for everyone. We will improve everything : - yes, Christian, we'll have HUGE names on the badges ;-) - yes Heimo, we can set up more hubs and wifi ! Other points ? Ask for what you want and we'll try to provide. We will also ask you to get involved earlier : very early talk submission and very early registration (don't forget that if we succeed in attracting more people, hotel booking may become a concern). So, we won't let you sleep until the next spring this time. Let's make 2004 the year of the big growth ! Have fun with Python, Denis, Tom and the whole team. -- Denis FRERE P3B : Club Python(-Zope) Belge --------- http://www.p3b.org OS3B : Club Open-Software(-Linux) Carolo http://www.os3b.org Aragne : Python-Zope Solutions & Formations http://www.aragne.com From huima@iki.fi Wed Jul 2 23:56:02 2003 From: huima@iki.fi (Heimo Laukkanen) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 01:56:02 +0300 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EuroPython 2004 [Was: Thank you all - where do we do the same thing next year?] In-Reply-To: <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> References: <200306290903.38564.sf@fermigier.com> <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> Message-ID: <3F036302.2090102@iki.fi> Denis Frère wrote: > After having slept a few nights on the EPC-2003, we have made up our > minds : yes, we will organize the 2004 edition again ! Excellent. When I put news to Zopezen about Zopetrack slides, I will also publicize this so that people can give ideas and comments also there, if they don't read these lists. > Other points ? Ask for what you want and we'll try to provide. - More open spaces, free time to the schedule so that people can have discussions - Some evening program, for example on thursday - so that most of the people - for example just within the tracks - would gather for dinner. - More sprints before the conference - Free beer I just wonder that isn't there in Charleroi any business that would be interested to get to support this large group of people and get them to come into their restaurants or whatever. > We will also ask you to get involved earlier : very early talk > submission and very early registration (don't forget that if we succeed > in attracting more people, hotel booking may become a concern). This is actually something that could be helped with 'community' - ie. if people near Charleroi would be able to take a person or two to sleep at their house and naturally get something in return. I mean it is always much more fun to really meet new people and spend time with them, rather than see another standard hotel room. And/or if it would be possible to get something for low budget travelers - students etc., it could make a huge difference. A very good idea is to match people together and rent apartments / houses for a week. I heard atleast from one very succesfull project like this - and witnessed also in Paris how this kind of approach brings people together and is extremely fun. Naturally there would need to be people to organise and point people to right directions. -huima From denis@aragne.com Thu Jul 3 00:37:00 2003 From: denis@aragne.com (Denis =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E8re?=) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 01:37:00 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EuroPython 2004 In-Reply-To: <3F036302.2090102@iki.fi> References: <200306290903.38564.sf@fermigier.com> <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> <3F036302.2090102@iki.fi> Message-ID: <20030702233700.GA26688@carolo.net> Le Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 01:56:02AM +0300, Heimo Laukkanen pianota: > - More open spaces, free time to the schedule so that people can have > discussions > > - Some evening program, for example on thursday - so that most of the > people - for example just within the tracks - would gather for dinner. > > - More sprints before the conference > > - Free beer For that point, at least, we are assured to get some satisfaction : last year Chimay provided us with some beer and some cheese. This year the sales representative has changed and we were not in time to find an arrangement. But in 2004, they will be there again: they promised and I won't let him forget us. > I just wonder that isn't there in Charleroi any business that would be > interested to get to support this large group of people and get them to > come into their restaurants or whatever. This year, the Eden Brasserie opened specially for us. But don't expect a restaurant to give free meals, even if the group is large enough. What would be their interest then ? > >We will also ask you to get involved earlier : very early talk > >submission and very early registration (don't forget that if we succeed > >in attracting more people, hotel booking may become a concern). > > This is actually something that could be helped with 'community' - ie. > if people near Charleroi would be able to take a person or two to sleep > at their house and naturally get something in return. I mean it is > always much more fun to really meet new people and spend time with them, > rather than see another standard hotel room. The Python community in Charleroi is not so wide. And if I take my case as an example, I spent only a couple of hours home every night : if you wanted to meet me, you'd better have a beer in a pub than sleeping in my home. :-) > And/or if it would be possible to get something for low budget travelers > - students etc., it could make a huge difference. A very good idea is to > match people together and rent apartments / houses for a week. I heard > atleast from one very succesfull project like this - and witnessed also > in Paris how this kind of approach brings people together and is > extremely fun. In 2002, we managed to get a sport center where about 40 of us have slept. But I can remember it was another big amount of time in setting up a small website with pictures, answering mails, getting the payments, etc. cf. http://europython.p3b.org/adeps There is a another nice possibility : we could rent a whole center where 120 persons could sleep (dormitories). That's not very far (about 10 km), it's in the wood, next to a sport track, there is an auditorium, plenty of space, a huge kitchen, ... We could have common evening activities, extra presentations, but then we should know early enough that many people are interested, we can't rent this kind of place for 10 students. Are there 100 people ready to book before Xmas or someone who wants to take the financial risk ? That's why I was saying that we have to start now. Everything is possible if YOU want and act now. Good night, Denis -- Denis FRERE P3B : Club Python(-Zope) Belge --------- http://www.p3b.org OS3B : Club Open-Software(-Linux) Carolo http://www.os3b.org Aragne : Python-Zope Solutions & Formations http://www.aragne.com From ghum@gmx.net Thu Jul 3 07:21:45 2003 From: ghum@gmx.net (Harald Armin Massa) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 08:21:45 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EuroPython 2004 References: <200306290903.38564.sf@fermigier.com> <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> <3F036302.2090102@iki.fi> <20030702233700.GA26688@carolo.net> Message-ID: <004501c3412b$61d64f60$642aa8c0@tog2> Denis, great news that you're willing to organize the next europython! An additional idea: a "social skills" track and the possibility to do real workshops. "social interaction" would mean: - presentation skills - negotiation skills - dealing with suits - selling - especially Python In discussions after my talks I often heard about challanges to "sell" Python to customers, projectleaders, managers... this track would deal with the non-technical way of negotiating. I hope this mailinglist is the correct place to discuss this issue? Harald From kit blake Thu Jul 3 08:08:30 2003 From: kit blake (kit blake) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 09:08:30 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: [ez] Re: EuroPython 2004 In-Reply-To: <20030702233700.GA26688@carolo.net> References: <200306290903.38564.sf@fermigier.com> <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> <3F036302.2090102@iki.fi> <20030702233700.GA26688@carolo.net> Message-ID: <20030703070830.GA8672@smtp2.v2.nl> Denis et al, > After having slept a few nights on the EPC-2003, we have made up our > minds : yes, we will organize the 2004 edition again ! You've made a lot of people happy with that decision. I heard a lot of discussion about "where next year?" but no 'takers'. It's so much work. This year it was clear to see how much you guys learned. Everything went so smoothly, and resulted in a terrific conference. If EPC-2004 is in Charleroi, I'll look forward to an even more impressive event. And the Chimay. kit . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Infrae . . . kit blake . . . infrae.com . t +31 10 243 7051 Hoevestraat 10 . 3033 GC Rotterdam . NL . f +31 10 243 7052 From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Thu Jul 3 09:16:48 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:16:48 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython 2004 [Was: Thank you all - where do we do the same thing next year?] In-Reply-To: <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> References: <200306290903.38564.sf@fermigier.com> <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> Message-ID: <20030703081647.GF21163@logilab.fr> On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 12:24:46AM +0200, Denis Frère wrote: > We will also ask you to get involved earlier : very early talk > submission and very early registration (don't forget that if we succeed > in attracting more people, hotel booking may become a concern). Speaking of talks, I think we should improve their quality. I suggest we use a more formal review process. If you want attendees to be happy, you can not have them listen for half an hour and not learn more than what's on the first page of the web site. More details : - we set up the new europython site using a CMS (i.e. Plone) - we create a new content type that describes a talk and a specific workflow associated with it - people that want to speak register themselves on the site then they create "talk" elements and submit them - talk chairmen can get the list of talks and accept the submissions and work with the speakers to improve the talks by reviewing the slides and/or papers - even better, slides are reviewed by many people, as it was the case at PyCon. The workflow of a talk could be : private (author is writing description) | | submit \|/ submitted (chairman has to review proposal) | | accept (chairman accepts proposal) \|/ writing (auhor is writing paper/slides) | /|\ | submit | feedback \|/ | review (chairman and others are reviewing the talk) | | publish (chairman accepts paper/slides and schedule the talk) \|/ published The goals are to make sure that : 1. all talks are ready several weeks *before* the conference. Writing slides on the train or on the plane always leads to bad quality talks 2. talks are consistent and focused. A review process is the basics of any serious conference. It is not meant to reject more people of make the reviewers feel powerful, but to make sure that everyone got a chance to improve the quality of his presentation by discussion his material with someone before presenting it to a wider audience. Another point is that we may want to have shorter talks in general and more time left intentionally free for open discussion, projects, coding, etc. I think that 30 min (including questions) is the right duration. If it can not be made to fit in 30 min, it is most probably because it deserves 1h30 (like a tutorial and "What's new in Python 2.x"). Offering 15 more minutes only permits to be too long on certain parts and have the audience lose interest for some time. One last suggestion : a "Commercial Track" where companies doing business with Python could present their commercial offerings and products. Having this distinct from the other tracks would prevent us from being tempted to slip "commercials" into other presentations and would allow python companies to make sure that the community knows what they're doing and selling (and I don't think this is the case at this point). I volunteer to help with setting up Plone if the organizers (Denis and friends) want help for that, and I'm ready to organize "Python in Science" for EP'04. -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From Tom Deprez" <200306290903.38564.sf@fermigier.com> <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> <20030703081647.GF21163@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <00d901c34144$2d2d9750$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> > I volunteer to help with setting up Plone if the organizers (Denis > and friends) want help for that, and I'm ready to organize "Python in > Science" for EP'04. Cool. Yes the idea was to look if we could change the website to a CMS. (Probably Plone) I'm not totally sure if a conference website must be in CMS. I'm not sure what kind of extra values a CMS website gives for a conference website. But it is an idea we certainly wanted to look at, more exactly, wanted to try out. (but, I wanted to take a brake for a short moment, before looking into that) More things: * the site surely needs to be easy portable for next conferences as well. Even better, there should be no need for portability. It should be useable without a problem each year * it might be good to have an object 'speaker' as well. This could be usefull for enquetes about how good someone found your talks. -> these values can be usefull for the speaker as for the next conference. ... * more things to come. Regards, Tom. From Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de Thu Jul 3 10:17:14 2003 From: Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de (Andrew Smart) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:17:14 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Social Skills Track In-Reply-To: <004501c3412b$61d64f60$642aa8c0@tog2> Message-ID: SGksDQoNCmFzIHlvdSBtYXkga25vdyBJIGhhdmUgbWFkZSBhIHRhbGsgYWJvdXQgIkdlZWtzLCBU ZWFtcyAmIGh1bWFuIGZhY3RvciIuDQoNCkknbSB3aWxsaW5nIHRvIG1ha2UgbW9yZSB0YWxrcyBs aWtlIHRoYXQgb24gYSBzb2NpYWwgc2tpbGxzIHRyYWNrIG9uIA0KdGhlIG5leHQgRVBDLiANCg0K SSdtIGFsc28gYWJsZSB0byBpbnZpdGUgc29tZSByZWFsIGV4cGVyaWVuY2VkIHNwZWNpYWxpc3Rz IGZvciB0ZWFtIA0KZGV2ZWxvcG1lbnQgYW5kIHByb2plY3QgbGVhZGVycyB0byB0YWxrIGFib3V0 IHByb2plY3QgbWFuYWdlbWVudA0KYW5kIHN1Y2guDQoNCkkgdGhpbmsgdGhpcyB3b3VsZCBiZSBm aXR0aW5nIGluIHRoZSBpZGVhIG9mIFB5dGhvbjoNCi0+IG5vdCBvbmx5ICJ0ZWNoIHRhbGsiIA0K YnV0IGFsc28gDQotPiAid2hhdCB5b3UgbmVlZCB0byBnZXQgUHl0aG9uIHByb2plY3RzIHRvIGZs eSIuIA0KDQpUaGUgRVBDIGNvbWVzIHRoZW4gd2l0aCAiYmF0dGVyaWVzIGluY2x1ZGVkIi4NCg0K SG93IGRvZXMgdGhpcyBzb3VuZD8NCg0KSSB3b3VsZCBldmVuIGJlIHdpbGxpbmcgdG8gYmUgdHJh Y2sgY2hhaXJtYW4gOi0pDQoNCkFuZHJldw0K From Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de Thu Jul 3 10:22:01 2003 From: Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de (Andrew Smart) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:22:01 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Next EPC: budget for organizers In-Reply-To: <20030703070830.GA8672@smtp2.v2.nl> Message-ID: SGksDQoNCkkgc3VnZ2VzdCB0aGF0IHdlIGluY2x1ZGUgYW4gYnVmZmVyIG9mDQpleHRyYSBtb25l eSB3aGljaCB3aWxsIGJlIGdpdmVuIHRvIHRoZQ0KKGxvY2FsKSBvcmdhbml6ZXJzIGZvciB0aGUg dGltZSBhbmQgZWZmb3J0DQp0aGV5IGludmVzdCBpbnRvIHRoZSBjb25mZXJlbmNlLg0KDQpXaXRo b3V0IHRoZW0gdGhlIEVQQyB3b3VsZG4ndCBiZSBkaXNjdXNzaW5nDQp0aGUgbmV4dCB5ZWFyLg0K DQpJZiBldmVyeSBwYXJ0aWNpcGFudCBwYXlzIDIuNSBFdXJvIG1vcmUgaXQgDQp3b3VsZCBnaXZl IDc1MD8gRXVyb3MsIHdoaWNoIGlzIGEgYmFkIHBheQ0KZm9yIHRoZSBob3VycywgYnV0IGF0IGxl YXN0IHNvbWUgc29ydCBvZg0Kc2F5aW5nICJ0aGFuayB5b3UiLg0KDQpPZiBjb3Vyc2Ugc29tZSBy dWxlcyBmb3IgdGhlIGRpc3RyaWJ1dGlvbiANCm9mIHRoZSBtb25leSBzaG91bGQgYmUgZml4ZWQg dG8gcHJldmVudA0KdW5oYXBweSBkaXNjdXNzaW9ucy4NCg0KSSB0aGluayB0aGUgbW9uZXkgc2hv dWxkIGJlIGdpdmVuIHRvIHRoZQ0KcGVvcGxlIHdoaWNoIGFyZSBoZWF2aWx5IGludm9sdmVkLCBz cGVuZGluZw0KbW9yZSB0aGFuIHNvbWUgaG91cnMgYnV0IGRheXMgb3Igd2Vla3Mgb2YNCndvcmsu DQoNCkFuZHJldw== From gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de Thu Jul 3 10:28:42 2003 From: gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:28:42 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Proceedings (Was: EuroPython 2004) In-Reply-To: <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> Message-ID: Denis Fr=E8re: > After having slept a few nights on the EPC-2003, we have made up our > minds : yes, we will organize the 2004 edition again ! Great news!! > Those of you with whom we discussed the point know that we had some > reserve about it : that represents a significant time investment and > moreover we can't even follow the talks we would like to hear. :-) One helpful measure to help with this is an idea I discussed with several people already: make it mandatory for speakers to write exactly one page of text only describing the topic they're suppos- ed to present (in advance). It helps conference visitors, non-vi- sitors as well as speakers to choose and prepare a topic. Using RestructuredText this is very easy to collect automatically into some kind of proceedings, thereby adding value, quality and a souvenir to such events! We can even put it in the conference brochure, too, which should make it even more valuable as an in- strument for dealing with PR and the press. Regards, Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman ...................................................................... "Experience is one thing you can't get for nothing." (Oscar Wilde) From gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de Thu Jul 3 10:50:47 2003 From: gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:50:47 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Slides format Message-ID: Hi again, I just sniffed into the slides collection available so far, and I can see five entries in a power-prietary format which would either require me to buy new hard- and/or software to read the respective slides or to start hunting some free viewer appli- cation which probably doesn't exist anyway on my platform... :-( It would be *much* simpler to provide these simply in a cross- platform, free, portable document format, wouldn't it? Here's the page I'm referring to: http://europython.org/sessions/talks/slidespapers Regards, Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman ...................................................................... "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." (Mark Twain) From Tom Deprez" Message-ID: <011201c34149$507fd9c0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> Dinu Gherman wrote: > Hi again, > > I just sniffed into the slides collection available so far, and > I can see five entries in a power-prietary format which would > either require me to buy new hard- and/or software to read the > respective slides or to start hunting some free viewer appli- > cation which probably doesn't exist anyway on my platform... :-( > > It would be *much* simpler to provide these simply in a cross- > platform, free, portable document format, wouldn't it? Here's > the page I'm referring to: > > http://europython.org/sessions/talks/slidespapers Go ahead transform them if you're able to, or someoen else. We'll upload the crossplatform documents if they are send to us Regards, Tom. From mal@lemburg.com Thu Jul 3 11:22:29 2003 From: mal@lemburg.com (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 12:22:29 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython 2004 [Was: Thank you all - where do we do the same thing next year?] In-Reply-To: <20030703081647.GF21163@logilab.fr> References: <200306290903.38564.sf@fermigier.com> <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> <20030703081647.GF21163@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <3F0403E5.7010205@lemburg.com> Nicolas Chauvat wrote: > One last suggestion : a "Commercial Track" where companies doing > business with Python could present their commercial offerings and products. > Having this distinct from the other tracks would prevent us from being > tempted to slip "commercials" into other presentations and would allow > python companies to make sure that the community knows what they're doing > and selling (and I don't think this is the case at this point). I don't see any problem with having commercial presentations integrated in all tracks. It makes the tracks more diverse and interesting, IMHO. Also, if you have a special business interest, the "Python in Business" track is your friend. -- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Software directly from the Source (#1, Jul 03 2003) >>> Python/Zope Products & Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ >>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/ ________________________________________________________________________ 2003-07-01: Released mxODBC.Zope.DA for FreeBSD 1.0.6 beta 1 From magnus@thinkware.se Thu Jul 3 12:03:11 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 13:03:11 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: [ez] Re: EuroPython 2004 In-Reply-To: <20030703070830.GA8672@smtp2.v2.nl> References: <20030702233700.GA26688@carolo.net> <200306290903.38564.sf@fermigier.com> <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> <3F036302.2090102@iki.fi> <20030702233700.GA26688@carolo.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030703113243.01fa41e8@www.thinkware.se> At 09:08 2003-07-03 +0200, kit blake wrote: >You've made a lot of people happy with that decision. I heard a lot >of discussion about "where next year?" but no 'takers'. You missed that? The AB Strakt people in G=F6teborg, Sweden (Laura Creighton and Jacob Hall= =E9n etc) has offered to do it there. It was discussed in the auditorium during Friday afternoon I think. (I guess you were in the Zope track.) Jacob and Ronny Wikh (who is also a cofounder of Strakt) have many years of experience in making these kinds of arrangements, and as far as I understand, they have all the contacts they need for conference location, sprints, catering, cheap lodging etc. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language=20 From mwh@python.net Thu Jul 3 12:47:22 2003 From: mwh@python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 12:47:22 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython 2004 In-Reply-To: <20030703081647.GF21163@logilab.fr> ("Nicolas Chauvat"'s message of "Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:16:48 +0200") References: <200306290903.38564.sf@fermigier.com> <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> <20030703081647.GF21163@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <2m3chnrfw5.fsf@starship.python.net> "Nicolas Chauvat" writes: > On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 12:24:46AM +0200, Denis Fr=E8re wrote: >> We will also ask you to get involved earlier : very early talk >> submission and very early registration (don't forget that if we succeed >> in attracting more people, hotel booking may become a concern). > > Speaking of talks, I think we should improve their quality. I suggest > we use a more formal review process. If you want attendees to be happy, > you can not have them listen for half an hour and not learn more than > what's on the first page of the web site. Hmm. Were the talks so bad this year? I got the impression that quite a few people were first time speakers who (hopefully) won't make the same mistakes again. I'm not sure how the "over long introduction" problem is solved by a review, either. > More details : > > - we set up the new europython site using a CMS (i.e. Plone) Here when you say "we" I hope you mean, at least partly, "I". I can probably find some time to do website maintenance, but I do *not* have the time (or, frankly, the inclination) to become a Plone wizard first. If the site is usuable (on the admin side!) by a plone novice, and there is a sufficient number of Plone experts to=20 a) build the site b) maintain the site then, sure go for it! But please, please make sure there are enough people who *will* have the time to admin the site, not just enough people who *promise* to have enough time to admin the site -- if logilab get a big rush on and the site goes rudderless, that would be bad. (Forgive me if I'm overstressing this...) [proposed workflow] Sounds good. > The goals are to make sure that : > > 1. all talks are ready several weeks *before* the conference. Writing sli= des > on the train or on the plane always leads to bad quality talks For some reason here I feel like saying "and the slides will be delivered by flying pig" :-) It's a goal to aim for, though. [...] > I volunteer to help with setting up Plone if the organizers (Denis > and friends) want help for that, and I'm ready to organize "Python > in Science" for EP'04. I'll do my bit for the Python Language again. While we have some enthusiasm and energy left over from the con, is someone capable of rearranging the website to the point of putting the current content under /2003/ and putting a note on the front page saying (roughly) "planning for EP2004 has already started! go [here] for info on the 2003 event"? (and perhaps next year's content should *start* under /2004/... stable URLs are good). My Zope abilities in no way stretch to this, unfortunately. Cheers, M. --=20 Finding a needle in a haystack is a lot easier if you burn down the haystack and scan the ashes with a metal detector. -- the Silicon Valley Tarot (another one nicked from David Rush) From magnus@thinkware.se Thu Jul 3 12:53:42 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 13:53:42 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Wish list for Europython 2004 In-Reply-To: <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> References: <3EFCA6FD.3010107@iki.fi> <200306290903.38564.sf@fermigier.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030703034302.01fa3530@www.thinkware.se> I'd like to thank both Denis, Tom and the other people who worked with Europython, as well as the speakers and all the other people who attended. It was a great pleasure to meet you all face to face, having used software and read lots of emails etc from many of you. I had a great time, and met a lot of new people! I really hope that I will be able to attend next year as well. I'd also like to thank you for how well the catering worked, especially for us vegetarians. (I hope it worked well for the rest as well, of course. :) Since next year is up, I thought I'd bring up some things that I would really like for Europython 2004--whereever it will take place. The major issue --------------- * Better acustics and ventilation. The auditorium was decent, both from sound and air point of view, but room A wasn't as good, and room B was rather poor. It is tiresome to listen all day to people speaking about rather complicated things in a language that is foreign to both the speaker and the listener, and the poor acustics and bad air in the end of a session made it harder for me to follow a number of sessions. Microphones and loudspeakers are a poor substitute for good acustics, and they should certainly not be needed in a correctly built room of the size of room A or B. The amplified sound is more tiresome to listen to, and time is lost due to technical problems with microphones etc. I guess this is not a trivial thing to "fix" if we are to stay in the same place. I don't know if there are other rooms at CEME that would fit better. This was the only really significant problem I had with Europython. As I said, I'm generally very pleased. Minor issues ------------ * Oops, why isn't my presentation on the screen? (Alterntatively, why is only 61% visible.) Would it be possible to set up some kind of "test your laptop" rig, so that people could verify that their presentation could be displayed in the projector before they actually had an audience impatiently waiting for them? :) Maybe it would be enough with a 800x600 VGA monitor standing somewhere, that they could connect to? They need to check that external monitor is enabled, and adjust their screen to the resolution of the projector's, which I assume is 800x600. Right? Obviously it would be best if they got a chance to test in the room where they were to hold the presentation, or in another equivalent room, but I guess that's impossible with the tight schedules and human nature... * Computer rooms It was often difficult to get internet access, and I'd like to see more sprints in conjunction to Europython 2004. It would be convenient if they could take place in or near the conference location. * Budget lodging The hotel cost is significant for an event like this. It would be good if we could find cheaper accomodations, but 10 km out in the woods is not quite perfect... * Location It would obviously be perfect if lodging, conference and town centre (i.e. entertainment) was all in walking distance. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From mwh@python.net Thu Jul 3 12:49:09 2003 From: mwh@python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 12:49:09 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Slides format In-Reply-To: (Dinu Gherman's message of "Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:50:47 +0200") References: Message-ID: <2mznjvq18q.fsf@starship.python.net> Dinu Gherman writes: > Hi again, > > I just sniffed into the slides collection available so far, and > I can see five entries in a power-prietary format which would > either require me to buy new hard- and/or software to read the > respective slides or to start hunting some free viewer appli- > cation which probably doesn't exist anyway on my platform... :-( AIUI, not all installs of powerpoint have the PDF exporting bits. If someone has the necessary bits, feel free to download the .ppts convert to PDF and bug the track chair to upload that instead. > It would be *much* simpler to provide these simply in a cross- > platform, free, portable document format, wouldn't it? So, well, no, not simpler. Better, yes. Cheers, M. -- : Giant screaming pieces of excrement, they are. I have a feeling that some of the people in here have a MUCH more exciting time relieving themselves than I do. -- Mike Sphar & Dave Brown, asr From mwh@python.net Thu Jul 3 12:53:59 2003 From: mwh@python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 12:53:59 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EuroPython 2004 In-Reply-To: <20030702233700.GA26688@carolo.net> (Denis =?iso-8859-1?q?Fr=E8re's?= message of "Thu, 3 Jul 2003 01:37:00 +0200") References: <200306290903.38564.sf@fermigier.com> <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> <3F036302.2090102@iki.fi> <20030702233700.GA26688@carolo.net> Message-ID: <2mwuezq10o.fsf@starship.python.net> Denis Fr=E8re writes: >> And/or if it would be possible to get something for low budget travelers= =20 >> - students etc., it could make a huge difference. A very good idea is to= =20 >> match people together and rent apartments / houses for a week. I heard=20 >> atleast from one very succesfull project like this - and witnessed also= =20 >> in Paris how this kind of approach brings people together and is=20 >> extremely fun. > > In 2002, we managed to get a sport center where about 40 of us have > slept. But I can remember it was another big amount of time in setting > up a small website with pictures, answering mails, getting the payments, > etc.=20 > cf. http://europython.p3b.org/adeps If we could get this again, that would be wonderful (from my POV). > There is a another nice possibility : we could rent a whole center where > 120 persons could sleep (dormitories). That's not very far (about 10=20 > km), it's in the wood, next to a sport track, there is an auditorium, > plenty of space, a huge kitchen, ... We could have common evening > activities, extra presentations, but then we should know early enough > that many people are interested, we can't rent this kind of place for > 10 students. Are there 100 people ready to book before Xmas or someone > who wants to take the financial risk ? Wow. That would be cool, but I can see why it's a risk. I would say that the chance of 100 people booking by Xmas is (roughly) nil. OTOH, come conference time, I would have thought it likely to be pretty popular. Assuming 100 people slept there, what kind of cost per person per night are we looking at? Cheers, M. --=20 ZAPHOD: You know what I'm thinking? FORD: No. ZAPHOD: Neither do I. Frightening isn't it? -- The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, Episode 11 From Tom Deprez" <200306290903.38564.sf@fermigier.com><20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net><20030703081647.GF21163@logilab.fr> <2m3chnrfw5.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <018a01c3415b$02920820$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> > While we have some enthusiasm and energy left over from the con, is > someone capable of rearranging the website to the point of putting the > current content under /2003/ and putting a note on the front page > saying (roughly) "planning for EP2004 has already started! go [here] > for info on the 2003 event"? (and perhaps next year's content should > *start* under /2004/... stable URLs are good). As told. I'll look at it after a short break. So if nobody does it before it will be done after a break. T. From denis@aragne.com Thu Jul 3 13:23:30 2003 From: denis@aragne.com (Denis) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 14:23:30 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EuroPython 2004 In-Reply-To: <2mwuezq10o.fsf@starship.python.net> References: <200306290903.38564.sf@fermigier.com> <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> <3F036302.2090102@iki.fi> <20030702233700.GA26688@carolo.net> <2mwuezq10o.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <20030703122330.GH24379@carolo.net> Le Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 12:53:59PM +0100, Michael Hudson pianota: > > cf. http://europython.p3b.org/adeps > > If we could get this again, that would be wonderful (from my POV). That's one possibility. In 2003 we were too late to book it. > Assuming 100 people slept there, what kind of cost per > person per night are we looking at? The price is about 2000 EUR/day (I would have to check if it's still accurate) --> 20/EUR/pers/day Of course, there is much more than just a place to sleep. Cost could be spread on more heads : those willing to use the auditorium (300 places), those willing to have a community dinner, etc. Denis -- Denis FRERE P3B : Club Python(-Zope) Belge --------- http://www.p3b.org OS3B : Club Open-Software(-Linux) Carolo http://www.os3b.org Aragne : Python-Zope Solutions & Formations http://www.aragne.com From magnus@thinkware.se Thu Jul 3 15:06:43 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 16:06:43 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython 2004 In-Reply-To: <2m3chnrfw5.fsf@starship.python.net> References: <20030703081647.GF21163@logilab.fr> <200306290903.38564.sf@fermigier.com> <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> <20030703081647.GF21163@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030703154031.01f94ff8@www.thinkware.se> At 12:47 2003-07-03 +0100, Michael Hudson wrote: >"Nicolas Chauvat" writes: > > Speaking of talks, I think we should improve their quality. I suggest > > we use a more formal review process. If you want attendees to be happy, > > you can not have them listen for half an hour and not learn more than > > what's on the first page of the web site. > >Hmm. Were the talks so bad this year? I got the impression that >quite a few people were first time speakers who (hopefully) won't make >the same mistakes again. There will be new first time speakers next year... I didn't think it was so bad. I can't compare with last year since I wasn't there, but this was more or less what I expected from the written program, and of course, that affected my choice of talks to follow. It's clear that many presenters were unused to their role. There are many things to consider, from details while talking such as holding the microphone still, trying to articulate a little extra, avoiding speaking to quickly, facing the audience, repeating questions from the audience and not fiddling with pens etc, to lots of issues in the preparation, such as what to write in the presentation and what to say etc. (Just saying what it says on the presentation is usually not a good idea.) Anne Ravencroft's "Perils of Pauline" talk is certainly relevant for presenters to a large degree. It did seem to me that most speakers did follow the schedule fairly well. Unless you have rehersed or have a lot of prior experience, it's not so easy to know whether your slides will take five minutes or one hour to present, so I do think that everybody had made an effort to prepare. I'm sure many of the speakers would be helped by some kind of speaking course, but that's not really a subject for Europython, although, if we plan to have a "social skills" track, I assume we could place such things there, and thus improve the long term speaker quality. There will always be first time speakers though... Might there be some other way we can help speakers prepare? Are there good on-line resources that we can refer them to? I think the combination of lacking speaker skills and the poor sound and air in particularly room B is a problem. Perhaps it's better if all the poor speakers get to use the auditorium? Seriously, if we feel fresher, and if we can hear clearly what people say, it's much easier to absorb whatever content there is in a talk, even if it's far from perfect. I do hope that we won't have that bunker-like echoing room B next year. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From magnus@thinkware.se Thu Jul 3 15:33:12 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 16:33:12 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Slides format In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030703163122.01fe23d0@www.thinkware.se> At 11:50 2003-07-03 +0200, Dinu Gherman wrote: >It would be *much* simpler to provide these simply in a cross- >platform, free, portable document format, wouldn't it? As far as I understood, Armin Rigo's PyPy presentation was written in PyGame. When do we get to see a .tgz of that on the EuroPython site? :) -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From rev_anna_r@yahoo.com Thu Jul 3 15:32:59 2003 From: rev_anna_r@yahoo.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 07:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [EuroPython] Re: [ez] Re: EuroPython 2004 In-Reply-To: <20030703070830.GA8672@smtp2.v2.nl> Message-ID: <20030703143259.74084.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> --- kit blake wrote: > Denis et al, > > After having slept a few nights on the EPC-2003, we have made up > our > > minds : yes, we will organize the 2004 edition again ! > > You've made a lot of people happy with that decision. I heard a lot > of discussion about "where next year?" but no 'takers'. It's so > much work. Great decision! > This year it was clear to see how much you guys learned. Everything > went so smoothly, and resulted in a terrific conference. If EPC-2004 > is in Charleroi, I'll look forward to an even more impressive event. > And the Chimay. As a non-beer drinker (I'm allergic to hops, unfortunately), someone else will have to get my Chimay. I'll just have to stick with coffee and juice and water, unless someone decides that cider is a good idea... ;-) I am looking forward to the conference next year. I'm headed to a long-standing science fiction convention tomorrow and then off to OSCon. After that, I'll be glad to help with organizing next year (including maybe some ideas I picked up at the conventions). Two immediate ideas spring to mind on registration: 1. Supporting registration - a small portion of the registration amount paid in advance by those who want to attend but don't know if they'll be able to. If they are able to attend, they pay the remainder at the door (at the earlybird rates) and if not, the supporting amount is extra money to support the convention. 2. This means, closing early bird earlier to allow organizers to prepare things properly. It also means you should have a bigger "at the door" jump - and at-the-door starts at least one week prior to the conference. 3. Okay, well, no one expects the Spanish Inquisition... Allow people to check-in/register the night before - for some pre-arranged amount of time at the CEME on Tuesday evening, or at the Business Hotel on Tuesday evening. Encourage speakers, especially, to get registered on Tuesday night. 4. Some kind of brief "hardware orientation" for track chairs - so we have some idea how to work the microphones and beamers etc etc. BTW - I love the idea of the "soft skills" track. 5. Okay, so once I start, it's hard to stop... ;-) Have a chance for people from various countries to meet- briefly but organized in some fashion fairly early so that they can start networking more in their country. This could be run by the "soft skills" track chair. Okay - I'm done now. See some of you at OSCon. It was a pleasure meeting everyone! Anna From lac@strakt.com Thu Jul 3 16:57:40 2003 From: lac@strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 17:57:40 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython 2004 In-Reply-To: Message from Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?= of "Thu, 03 Jul 2003 16:06:43 +0200." <5.2.1.1.0.20030703154031.01f94ff8@www.thinkware.se> References: <20030703081647.GF21163@logilab.fr> <200306290903.38564.sf@fermigier.com> <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> <20030703081647.GF21163@logilab.fr> <5.2.1.1.0.20030703154031.01f94ff8@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <200307031557.h63FveOs018112@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Thu, 03 Jul 2003 16:06:43 +0200, Magnus Lyckå writes: >At 12:47 2003-07-03 +0100, Michael Hudson wrote: >>"Nicolas Chauvat" writes: >> > Speaking of talks, I think we should improve their quality. I suggest >> > we use a more formal review process. If you want attendees to be happ >y, >> > you can not have them listen for half an hour and not learn more than >> > what's on the first page of the web site. >> >>Hmm. Were the talks so bad this year? I got the impression that >>quite a few people were first time speakers who (hopefully) won't make >>the same mistakes again. >I'm sure many of the speakers would be helped by some kind of speaking >course, but that's not really a subject for Europython, although, if we >plan to have a "social skills" track, I assume we could place such things >there, and thus improve the long term speaker quality. There will always >be first time speakers though... > >Might there be some other way we can help speakers prepare? Are there >good on-line resources that we can refer them to? I just know about this talk, Conference Presentatin Judo http://search.cpan.org/src/MJD/txt2slides/Example-2/notes.html which was written by popular Perl speaker M. J. Dominus. I think it is good reading, though you shouldn't expect to agree with him about everthing. (I think Americans have a larger tolerance for bathroom humour, for instance, than will work here.) The idea is to understand why it is that you disagree with him. Just thinking this through is a good exercise. I think that the problem of having people preparing at the last minute could be largely solved if you set aside plenty of space for 'OpenSpace' -- i.e. 30 minute talks that you don't have to prepare for. Then, if the Track chairs don't get a paper before such-and-such a date, then they instruct the author that it is too late for them to have a regular slot, but that they should give it as an OpenSpace talk. Speaking of dates -- When do we want to have this thing? I, for one would like it a lot later so that it does not conflict with Mid-Summer. (21st June, for those of you living in countries where it is not the number one holiday of the year.) 3rd or 4th week in August would suit me. (week 33 34 or 35). Laura From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Thu Jul 3 15:33:31 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 16:33:31 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython 2004 In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030703154031.01f94ff8@www.thinkware.se> References: <20030703081647.GF21163@logilab.fr> <200306290903.38564.sf@fermigier.com> <20030702222445.GC11865@carolo.net> <20030703081647.GF21163@logilab.fr> <5.2.1.1.0.20030703154031.01f94ff8@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <20030703143331.GT21163@logilab.fr> On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 04:06:43PM +0200, Magnus Lyckå wrote: > At 12:47 2003-07-03 +0100, Michael Hudson wrote: > >"Nicolas Chauvat" writes: > >> Speaking of talks, I think we should improve their quality. I suggest > >> we use a more formal review process. If you want attendees to be happy, > >> you can not have them listen for half an hour and not learn more than > >> what's on the first page of the web site. > > > >Hmm. Were the talks so bad this year? I got the impression that > >quite a few people were first time speakers who (hopefully) won't make > >the same mistakes again. > > There will be new first time speakers next year... > > I didn't think it was so bad. I can't compare with last year since I wasn't > ... > I'm sure many of the speakers would be helped by some kind of speaking > course, but that's not really a subject for Europython, although, if we > plan to have a "social skills" track, I assume we could place such things > there, and thus improve the long term speaker quality. There will always > be first time speakers though... I was not talking about the people presenting the slides but about the content of the slides. As I said, I think that going to EuroPython should enable the audience to learn more about a project than the information available from the first page of the web site. I'm not suggesting that we teach people to become showmen, but just that we help speakers make sure the content of their talk is well built, relevant, focused, comprehensive, etc. -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From magnus@thinkware.se Thu Jul 3 18:05:34 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 19:05:34 +0200 Subject: Fwd: Re: [EuroPython] Wish list for Europython 2004 Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030703190453.01fbedc8@www.thinkware.se> I assume this was for the mailing list: >Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 07:46:10 -0700 (PDT) >From: Anna Ravenscroft >Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Wish list for Europython 2004 >To: Magnus "Lyck=E5" > >--- Magnus Lyck=E5 wrote: > > > > * Computer rooms > > > > It was often difficult to get internet access, > >More wireless points would be helpful with that. > > > * Budget lodging > > > > The hotel cost is significant for an event like this. It would be > > good if > > we could find cheaper accomodations, but 10 km out in the woods is > > not > > quite perfect... > >10 km out in the woods would be fine IFF there is a shuttle arranged >for people to get there and back again for conference and dinner. Not >hourly or anything but something... and I don't mean Tom driving back >and forth in his car... ;-) > >Anna -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language=20 From denis@aragne.com Thu Jul 3 18:09:06 2003 From: denis@aragne.com (Denis =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E8re?=) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 19:09:06 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython 2004 : Dates In-Reply-To: <200307031557.h63FveOs018112@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <20030703170906.GM24379@carolo.net> Le Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 05:57:40PM +0200, Laura Creighton pianota: > > Speaking of dates -- When do we want to have this thing? I, for one > would like it a lot later so that it does not conflict with Mid-Summer. > (21st June, for those of you living in countries where it is not the > number one holiday of the year.) 3rd or 4th week in August would suit > me. (week 33 34 or 35). It seems that we are going toward 3rd week of May. August is still holiday for many of us and there could be problems to have the last organization weeks during July-Augustus period. It doesn't seem that it would conflict with some other big event. Better sooner than later. :-) Denis -- Denis FRERE P3B : Club Python(-Zope) Belge --------- http://www.p3b.org OS3B : Club Open-Software(-Linux) Carolo http://www.os3b.org Aragne : Python-Zope Solutions & Formations http://www.aragne.com From faassen@vet.uu.nl Thu Jul 3 22:36:38 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 23:36:38 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? Message-ID: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> Hey, Just a comment, but I thought we're deciding rather *rapidly* on EuroPython 2004... I thought at least a cooling down period of more than a week before making *and announcing* a new decision would have been in order.. This gives people hardly the chance to even offer other locations even if we call for them. I for one had no clue that this decision was to be taken right now. Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Thu Jul 3 22:59:26 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 23:59:26 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> Martijn Faassen wrote: > Just a comment, but I thought we're deciding rather *rapidly* on EuroPython > 2004... My mail archive is not entirely complete, so I had to look through the web archives to even find Denis's announcement, made last night. (perhaps it hasn't arrived here yet? weird) Anyway, I just wanted to express my displeasure in stronger wording. Anyway, *who* made the decision to hold EP 2004 in Charleroi again next year? I just see an announcement by Denis (and "Tom and the whole team") on the mailing list. Apparently members of the europython mailing list or the irc channel do not seem to be included in this team. Track chairs do not appear to be even consulted, and what happened to those who offered alternate locations? I'm upset by this proceeding, this is *seriously* bad communication, completely unilateral a thoroughly inauspicious start. I recall that in 2002 we had a discussion about the new location; moving to another place or stay in Charleroi. The decision was made then to stay in Charleroi for another year, to bootstrap the conference, but that the year *after* we'd consider alternate locations. And then instead of actually talking about other locations, this is just handed to us less than a week after the conference actually *ends*? Geez people! It's nice that you are volunteering but what were you thinking? I hope this premature announcement can be retracted and some actual discussion can take place first. This really really sucks. Regards, Martijn From mal@lemburg.com Thu Jul 3 23:06:19 2003 From: mal@lemburg.com (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 00:06:19 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <3F04A8DB.8050107@lemburg.com> Martijn Faassen wrote: > Hey, > > Just a comment, but I thought we're deciding rather *rapidly* on EuroPython > 2004... I thought at least a cooling down period of more than a week > before making *and announcing* a new decision would have been in order.. This > gives people hardly the chance to even offer other locations even if > we call for them. I for one had no clue that this decision was to be taken > right now. Actually, Tim Couper did a poll at the conference (just before Guido's keynote) and the majority welcomed to have EPC 2004 in Charleroi again. I think that a very wise decision and would like to thank Tom and Denis for stepping up again; this time hopefully budgeting for their time expenses as well :-) EPC 2005/2006 will probably be too big for the CEME in Charleroi anyway, so there are still plenty of opportunities for other conference chairs to jump in and organize the event somewhere else, e.g. in The Netherlands, Sweden, France or Italy. Instead of discussing the location for EPC 2004, you should start discussing how to get new people interested in the conference. This year's event had only about 10-20% new attendees (according to the poll done by Tim). This tells me that we're not reaching out to the greater IT public enough. Perhaps LinuxWorld UK will change that a bit; if it does we should probably try to piggyback a few Python tracks on other conferences as well and then point interested people to the annual EuroPython event. Anyway, just an idea, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Software directly from the Source (#1, Jul 03 2003) >>> Python/Zope Products & Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ >>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/ ________________________________________________________________________ 2003-07-01: Released mxODBC.Zope.DA for FreeBSD 1.0.6 beta 1 From mal@lemburg.com Thu Jul 3 23:12:10 2003 From: mal@lemburg.com (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 00:12:10 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <3F04AA3A.3020301@lemburg.com> Martijn Faassen wrote: > Martijn Faassen wrote: > >>Just a comment, but I thought we're deciding rather *rapidly* on EuroPython >>2004... > ... > This really really sucks. To the contrary: It's great to have a decision this early :-) I also don't see a problem in having more than one event per year, so if other people are willing to invest their time, that would only further the reach of Python in Europe. -- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Software directly from the Source (#1, Jul 04 2003) >>> Python/Zope Products & Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ >>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/ ________________________________________________________________________ 2003-07-01: Released mxODBC.Zope.DA for FreeBSD 1.0.6 beta 1 From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Thu Jul 3 23:04:50 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 00:04:50 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <20030703220450.GC15649@logilab.fr> On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 11:36:38PM +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: > Hey, > > Just a comment, but I thought we're deciding rather *rapidly* on EuroPython > 2004... I thought at least a cooling down period of more than a week > before making *and announcing* a new decision would have been in order.. This > gives people hardly the chance to even offer other locations even if > we call for them. I for one had no clue that this decision was to be taken > right now. Since our belgian friends spent a lot of time organizing the first two events, I have no problem with them having the final word on the "we keep or we let go" topic. Having EP'04 in Charleroi for the last time will also give us another year to get a more formal organization in place, like a europython association or something. This would be the place where to offer new locations and have a vote take place to make a decision in a democratic way, rather than install a python mafia that decides who does what. I know that the PSU would destroy such a mafia in no time, but since the PSU does not exist. An idea could be that after next year, the people willing to host the conference will candidate as a board. Then every person that attended europython before will get one vote. The board that is elected gets to take care of the association and host the conference the following year. Just an idea... -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From faassen@vet.uu.nl Thu Jul 3 23:29:41 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 00:29:41 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <3F04AA3A.3020301@lemburg.com> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <3F04AA3A.3020301@lemburg.com> Message-ID: <20030703222941.GA12723@vet.uu.nl> M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > Martijn Faassen wrote: > >Martijn Faassen wrote: > > > >>Just a comment, but I thought we're deciding rather *rapidly* on > >>EuroPython > >>2004... > >... > >This really really sucks. > > To the contrary: It's great to have a decision this early :-) No, it really sucks to decide unilaterally so quickly. The decision making process is thoroughly opaque, and a day-long comment period before announcing it to the world is too short. > I also don't see a problem in having more than one event per year, > so if other people are willing to invest their time, that would > only further the reach of Python in Europe. There is not room for two European python conferences in a single year. Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Thu Jul 3 23:37:43 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 00:37:43 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030703220450.GC15649@logilab.fr> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703220450.GC15649@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <20030703223743.GB12723@vet.uu.nl> Nicolas Chauvat wrote: > Since our belgian friends spent a lot of time organizing the first two events, I spent a lot of time organizing the first two events too. So did you for that matter. That doesn't mean we can just happily announce whatever we like to the world about the next conference. I'm grateful and happy about all the spent effort, but this is not the way to do it. > I have no problem with them having the final word on the "we keep or we let go" > topic. I do. > Having EP'04 in Charleroi for the last time Last time? Oh, in '04 they'll just announce it'll be there again in '05 a week after the conference ends, not a problem. I don't have this in writing I think, but I do recall comments like 'the last time' about *this* year's conference as well. > will also give us another > year to get a more formal organization in place, Why can't we get a more formal organization in place now? Do you think you will have the time to organize this in 2004 but not this year? Who will be doing this? I think this conference is in bad need for a more formal organization *right now* actually, as this kind of unilateral decision making sucks. > like a europython association > or something. This would be the place where to offer new locations and have > a vote take place to make a decision in a democratic way, rather than > install a python mafia that decides who does what. If we can't be democratic right now we can at least be more open about the decision making process! Where the conference will be organized depends in a large measure on who is willing to do the local organization, fine. I appreciate all the efforts of local organization that were done at Charleroi. If they are offering to organize the conference in Charleroi next year, that is a wonderful offer. I for one am more in favor of having the conference move around if possible, and I understood at the conference at least two other options were under consideration; Gothenburg and London. Somehow these options must've been silently dropped at some point very recently? > I know that the PSU would > destroy such a mafia in no time, but since the PSU does not exist. I don't care about bringing humor into this matter right now, sorry. Maybe later. > An idea could be that after next year, the people willing to host the > conference will candidate as a board. Then every person that attended > europython before will get one vote. The board that is elected gets to > take care of the association and host the conference the following year. I think we shouldn't wait until next year. A more transparent decision making process is extremely obviously needed *right now*. Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Thu Jul 3 23:54:54 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 00:54:54 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <3F04A8DB.8050107@lemburg.com> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <3F04A8DB.8050107@lemburg.com> Message-ID: <20030703225454.GC12723@vet.uu.nl> M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > Actually, Tim Couper did a poll at the conference (just before Guido's > keynote) and the majority welcomed to have EPC 2004 in Charleroi again. Well, I couldn't count the 'votes', perhaps Tim could. I didn't recall the majority being against London or Goteburg either. This was an extremely informal poll, and this kind of thing tends to be biased towards the locals who can more easily attend anyway. If the decision was made based on this poll, I missed any documentation of such a thing. I cannot find much information on what led to this decision at all, in fact. > I think that a very wise decision and would like to thank Tom and > Denis for stepping up again; this time hopefully budgeting for their > time expenses as well :-) A very wise decision to pull off a stunt like this? You must have a severely different concept of wisdom than I do. But I guess I should remind you of it when someone announces something in your name to the world without your input. ("We decided to hold EPC2004 again in Charleroi"; I didn't decide any such thing, and I still wonder who exactly did besides Denis and Tom). I'm offended by the way you just seem to wave away my complaints, as if nothing rather odd has taken place. You could at least acknowledge a serious breakdown of communication! The most unfortunate thing of all is that my objectionS makes me seem ungrateful as to the organizing efforts last year and this year... Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Fri Jul 4 00:26:20 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 01:26:20 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030703223743.GB12723@vet.uu.nl> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703220450.GC15649@logilab.fr> <20030703223743.GB12723@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <20030703232620.GA13006@vet.uu.nl> Martijn Faassen wrote: [Nicolas] > > I have no problem with them having the final word on the "we keep or we let go" > > topic. > > I do. To expand on that: I of course have no objections to them saying "No". Of course by offering such and with the experience they have, their offer should receive serious consideration as well. I also debate that what occured was anything like a 'final word'; the first I knew about things was a newsitem on www.europython.org. Even if I believed in the hereditary right of conference organization this is hardly a 'final word' in a discussion. One of the reasons I got involved with EuroPython was because at the time the European Zope meetings were organized by a single company. While these were fun and succesful events, I felt the community should have more input on it. EuroPython so far was at least a lot more open and inclusive, though much improvement can yet be made. Currently we however appear to be heading in the opposite direction. Anyway, now I'll try to calm down and stop arguing and go to sleep instead... :( I'll try to be more constructive tomorrow. Regards, Martijn From magnus@thinkware.se Fri Jul 4 01:09:07 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 02:09:07 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <3F04A8DB.8050107@lemburg.com> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030704002956.01f85300@www.thinkware.se> First of all, I'm happy and thankful that the guys in Charleroi are offering to do this once more, and I certainly don't want to cause any bad feelings, but I do think that Martijn is right. I don't think Denis and Tom should decide on their own where next years Europython should be held. Actually, I don't really think Denis and Tom thinks that either. I assume that they are open to other alternatives, but that they assumed that noone else will be very interested in taking over the arrangement unless they say that they don't want to do it again. But I should not put words in their mouths. I assume they will explain what they meant. Francis Glassborow certainly had a point about the time it takes to learn how to organize such an event, and that it might be problematic to move it every year, but even if only these guys have arranged Europython so far, there might be other people, at other places, who have solid experience and all needed contacts, from having made other, similar arrangements. I think we should look into the different options together, and make a well informed decision when we have the facts needed to do that. I certainly don't want to rule out Charleroi, but I don't want to rule out every other option either. In the present situation, I imagine that other prospective organizers might be sitting silent to avoid causing conflicts, and while that is understandable, it's also unfortunate. With more options, we have a better chance to make next years event even better. Right? Denis mentioned at the conference that he felt that some kind of formal organization would be good, and I think that might be right. Not just to lend more credibility to the arrangers of the conference, but to make sure that the decision making process and the administration of the conference is transparent and correct. At 00:06 2003-07-04 +0200, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: >Actually, Tim Couper did a poll at the conference (just before Guido's >keynote) and the majority welcomed to have EPC 2004 in Charleroi again. That was very arbitrary and not really a proper foundation for a decision. Sure, if most people had objected, that would be a good reason to *not* have it in Charleroi again, but the fact that a majority could imagine having it in Charleroi again doesn't automatically make that the best choice. Tim also asked whether people would *not* come to G=F6teborg (I think he asked about Stockholm first) as a location, and very few hands went up as I could see. But those polls don't mean very much. There was no proper presentaion of any alterative to Charleroi. The audience had no chance to really know what the pros and cons with the different alternatives would be. The questions were also asked differently about the different alternatives. >I think that a very wise decision and would like to thank Tom and >Denis for stepping up again; Maybe this is a cultural difference that we have to bridge, but while I didn't react quite as strongly as Martijn, I basically felt what he expressed. That is not how I'm used to see decisions being made, and it's not how I like to see a decision process work. Considering that they did such a great job, I certainly think that it's very reasonable that they arrange it again if they offer to do that, but I do feel that it should be something we can discuss openly on the mailing list, comparing pros and cons if there are different options. For instance, I consider two of the three rooms at CEME to be below expected standard, and if another arranger could provide really good rooms, where it's easier to hear what the speakers say, and where the oxygen level is still at 21% in the end of a session, that would be a big plus in my book. As I said--I think Denis, Tom and the others did a great job, but I'm sure others can do a great job as well, and I guess there are other places where it's easier to satisfy all the wishes we might have for an even better Europython 2004. Finally, it's nice to see a new place. Going to a conference like this in the summer is not just the conference. If I have to travel for days (which I have from northern Sweden more or less regardless of location) I'd like to see something more than the inside of a conference center, and from that perspective I would perfer to go to a new place rather than to go to Charleroi again. Personally, G=F6teborg wouldn't be a better option from that point of view, since I lived there until six years ago, and go there every year anyway, but in general it's a relevant factor. Will people really be very excited about going to Charleroi again for a third time? The town isn't very exciting. Would it be more fun going somewhere else, or is it the other way around, that they like to come back? >this time hopefully budgeting for their >time expenses as well :-) I see a smiley, but it doesn't look like a funny joke to me. If Marc-Andre is suggesting that the arrangers make money on this event, I'd certainly like to see some competing offers and a possibility to select whatever gives more bang for the bucks. >EPC 2005/2006 will probably be too big for the CEME in Charleroi >anyway, so there are still plenty of opportunities for other >conference chairs to jump in and organize the event somewhere >else, e.g. in The Netherlands, Sweden, France or Italy. > >Instead of discussing the location for EPC 2004, you should start >discussing how to get new people interested in the conference. > >This year's event had only about 10-20% new attendees (according >to the poll done by Tim). That doesn't seem to match the numbers I heard. (70% of the attendants were there last year as well is what I heard from ... someone.) Anyway, I do think that Marc-Andre has a point here. We should try to attract more people to EPC 2004. From this point of view this years arrangement was no big success. I think it would be great if we could try to get web site, schedule and presentations settled a bit earlier. When the first announcements went out, the only content on the web site referred to last years conference, and it was more or less when early bird registration ended that the program started to settle. As a consultant, I certainly need to decide about trips like this at least two months ahead to have a chance to make things work with my customers. I think the numbers on regional distribution for EPC 2003 that was published are interesting, see http://www.europython.org/news/newsEntries/20030628/ It's clear that people coming from a place close to Charleroi attended to a higher degree than people living further away. On one hand, one might imagine that we might loose a significant part of the Belgian attendees if they suddenly have to take a plane instead of their car to reach the conference, but on the other hand, with a new location we are probably more likely to get more people from *that* region, and it seems those who have come to Europython before are more likely to come again. Perhaps moving the arrangement around a bit will help us spread both the EuroPython conference and awareness about Python in general to more places. I do think that the EuroPython conference might have an impact on awareness about Python in the place where the conference is held, so moving it could help spread awareness about Python. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language=20 From stephan.richter@tufts.edu Fri Jul 4 01:29:15 2003 From: stephan.richter@tufts.edu (Stephan Richter) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 20:29:15 -0400 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <3F04A8DB.8050107@lemburg.com> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <3F04A8DB.8050107@lemburg.com> Message-ID: <200307032029.15789.stephan.richter@tufts.edu> On Thursday 03 July 2003 18:06, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > This year's event had only about 10-20% new attendees (according > to the poll done by Tim). This tells me that we're not reaching out to > the greater IT public enough. Perhaps LinuxWorld UK will change > that a bit; if it does we should probably try to piggyback a > few Python tracks on other conferences as well and then point > interested people to the annual EuroPython event. This can be at least partially be accounted for by using the same location. Changing venue locations regularly is a necessity for growth. Also, I think Martijn speaks with some experience from the EuroZope community, where we also changed locations after two years, because people wanted it somewhere else; different locations allows new people to come, because their time and financial investment might be lower. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training From magnus@thinkware.se Fri Jul 4 01:46:47 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 02:46:47 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC as a Python promotor Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030704020910.01f7a3b0@www.thinkware.se> The more I think about it, the more I feel that EPC could be a way to spread the word, and to promote Python in the region where it takes place. I'd like those who consider arranging EPC 200X or who live in the area where someone else will arrange it to think about this. How can we use the conference to spread the word about Python and Zope in that region? Should the conference have a different content to make this possible? What other marketing efforts should one make to stir up more interest in Python, Zope and the EuroPython conference? What markets are most interesting? The public sector? Finance? Industry? Science and Education? I'll use G=F6teborg as an example, since it's been considered and I used to live there. For instance, Andrew Dalke told me that he's working with Python at AstraZeneca in G=F6teborg. If we would arrange EPC in G=F6teborg (some year), it might be a good idea to try to market it at AstraZeneca, and to get some of their people to attend, or maybe even to make some kind of presentation? Maybe AstraZeneca would see it as a place to market themselves? If they would like to sponsor the event, they would both lend some authority to Python and increase the budget a bit. There are also Python and Zope users at the universities in G=F6teborg. It should be possible to get some impact here, beyond the people who follow comp.lang.python.announce etc. There are also lots of companies such as Volvo, Ericsson, SKF and Hasselblad that might show an interest, and I'm sure the people who would be involved in arranging EPC in G=F6teborg would know a lot of other places where EPC could help create or extend the awareness of Python. The public sector is trying to embrace open source and trying to find new ways to create more with less. They should be an ideal target for Python marketing. I think something like EPC could help there as well. The more we raise awareness and interest in python, the better for all of us... (Regardless of what Harald Armin Massa said in his lightning talk. ;) -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language=20 From denis@aragne.com Fri Jul 4 02:37:39 2003 From: denis@aragne.com (Denis) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 03:37:39 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> Le Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 11:59:26PM +0200, Martijn Faassen pianota: > Martijn Faassen wrote: > > Just a comment, but I thought we're deciding rather *rapidly* on EuroPython > > 2004... > > [...] Anyway, I just wanted to express my displeasure in stronger > wording. > [...] > This really really sucks. I shouldn't have read my mails just before to go to sleep... now, I feel I have to answer as soon as possible. I'm tired and the poor English language will suffer even more than usually. We had a lot of discussions about this during the conference. We, i.e. Tom and me, were hesitating when people were asking us to do it again in Charleroi (while EuroPython is still maturing). The advices were almost always the same : "Do it again excepted if you don't want to do it again". I even asked Guido's advice (after all, he is the benevolent dictator). He used the words : "Don't change a winning team...". So, we asked for a few nights reflexion. And my thought was that if we work well enough, it will be the last year we can hold EPC in Charleroi. We will soon saturate the CEME and the hotel possibilities in that small town. I hesitated to use the word 'apotheosis' because I feel that 2004 could be a last great success in Charleroi, and then EPC will need a bigger welcoming town. I took the decision to announce it because two year experiences shows the same pattern : 1. long silence and inaction 2. long discussion threads when decisions begin to be declared 3. a big frightening silence (yes it's frightening when you're taking the financial responsability) 4. a frenetic run to achieve something rather honourable. I will propose you all to have a look at your archives. Here is what I was asking on the 19/11/2002 : ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: [EuroPython] Report 2002 - proposal 2003 - 2004 From: Denis Frère To: EuroPython main Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 04:50:44 +0100 [...] For the rest, I would like to propose something : the one who wants to organize the EPC 2004 should work very tightly with us on the 2003 edition so that the relay will be soft. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ There are two main parts in the conference : the 'theoretical' one (programs) and the 'practical' one (real world tasks). For the first part, track chairmen did a good job : I didn't stick my nose in the program (though I sometimes think I should do). But for the second part, no local team candidate showed up. So, I don't quite understand why there should be any last minute turnaround. I would like to conclude for today and go to sleep : I don't want to fight against my friends (and will it or not, Martijn, I count you among them). I just want to fight to make Python "10 times bigger" (TM Paul Everitt) The biggest obstacle in reaching our goal with both first EPC editions was that we started far too late. If we don't start now, it will be too late again in 2004. I don't want to loose our precious time for 2004 by starting now a call for candidates, discuss the candidatures, set up a pool, etc. But I would be glad to do such a thing for 2005. For me, candidates should not only declare themselves, but work hard on one year edition if they are volunteering for the next one. So, again, I propose to candidates for 2005 to declare themselves *now*, to build a candidature file, and to earn the decision in showing us how motivated they are : there is plenty of 'real world tasks' that can be accomplished from anywhere in the world, no need to be in the local team for most of these. If you show me that the majority of people who did work on EPC 2002 and 2003 (I say 'work', not 'talk') reject this proposal, I'm ready to drop the baby right now. But hurry up, I already invited some people to be our keynote speakers and I almost signed for the CEME (there is a discount when you book enough in advance). Gosh, I thought I had understood Francis Glasborough... :-( Denis -- Denis FRERE P3B : Club Python(-Zope) Belge --------- http://www.p3b.org OS3B : Club Open-Software(-Linux) Carolo http://www.os3b.org Aragne : Python-Zope Solutions & Formations http://www.aragne.com From mal@lemburg.com Fri Jul 4 09:33:25 2003 From: mal@lemburg.com (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 10:33:25 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> Message-ID: <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> Denis wrote: > If you show me that the majority of people who did work on EPC 2002 and > 2003 (I say 'work', not 'talk') reject this proposal, I'm ready to drop > the baby right now. But hurry up, I already invited some people to be > our keynote speakers and I almost signed for the CEME (there is a > discount when you book enough in advance). Please don't drop the ball. Just because one or two verbose people oppose the decision making process doesn't mean that all the rest have the same feelings. Besides, there will be many years to come, so there are plenty of opportunities for other organizers in other parts of Europe. Would be nice if the candidates for the next events would step forward. I know that Strakt has offered to do an event in Sweden and there were other proposals from people in Z=FCrich and even Tunesia (nice beaches, but outside Europe). I also wouldn't mind spending a few days in Prague, Budapest or Italy (hint, hint). We could even do it in D=FCsseldorf, but you wouldn't like the pricing structure :-) > Gosh, I thought I had understood Francis Glasborough... :-( You did :-) --=20 Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Software directly from the Source (#1, Jul 04 2003) >>> Python/Zope Products & Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ >>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/ ________________________________________________________________________ 2003-07-01: Released mxODBC.Zope.DA for FreeBSD 1.0.6 beta 1 From lac@strakt.com Fri Jul 4 09:47:16 2003 From: lac@strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 10:47:16 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: Message from "Nicolas Chauvat" of "Fri, 04 Jul 2003 00:04:50 +0200." <20030703220450.GC15649@logilab.fr> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703220450.GC15649@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <200307040847.h648lGOs021141@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Fri, 04 Jul 2003 00:04:50 +0200, "Nicolas Chauvat" writes: >On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 11:36:38PM +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: > >An idea could be that after next year, the people willing to host the >conference will candidate as a board. Then every person that attended >europython before will get one vote. The board that is elected gets to >take care of the association and host the conference the following year. > >Just an idea... > >-- >Nicolas Chauvat The problem with holding a vote _at the conference_ is that it excludes those who disliked the current venue (or the current time) enough to not bother attending, and it selects for those who are only interested _if they can sleep in their own beds at night_ whose beds happen to be close by. All this favours the encumbant, and may be significant. Laura From magnus@thinkware.se Fri Jul 4 10:09:50 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 11:09:50 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> References: <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030704035639.01f01870@www.thinkware.se> At 03:37 2003-07-04 +0200, Denis wrote: >For the first part, track chairmen did a good job : I didn't stick my >nose in the program (though I sometimes think I should do). >But for the second part, no local team candidate showed up. So, I don't >quite understand why there should be any last minute turnaround. I don't understand what you mean by "last minute turnaround". As far as I understand, there was an offer from G=F6teborg to arrange next years EuroPython. It seems to me that they spoke quite a bit about that in Charleri, and I though you were present at some time when Laura and I talked about it, but my memory might be playing tricks here. The Strakt people have been involved in arranging similar events for many years. I first met Jacob Hall=E9n in 1982. At that time the event he was involved with was maybe similar in size to EuroPython, but it grew a lot, and he had a central role in those arrangements for many years. I don't know how much he's involved these days, but that event still happens every year (since 1977), and it gathers about 1000 visitors each year now. Over the years, several other people at AB Strakt have worked with the arrangement of this event as well. (I was really surprised last year when I found out that these guys where python programmers now.) I don't know Dario Lopez-K=E4sten, but I think the Strakt people do, and he obviously has prior experience in arrangine conferences at Chalmers as well. I understand that they believe that they can arrange EPC, and that large parts of the arrangements are prepared. Jacob even quoted exact prices for inexpensive lodging at a central place in G=F6teborg, on walking distance from the planned location. They had plans for exact locations of the talks, as well as for sprints etc. I guess it's better that someone at Strakt explains what they are planning though. >I don't want to fight against my friends (and will it or not, Martijn, I >count you among them). >I just want to fight to make Python "10 times bigger" (TM Paul Everitt) Agreed! >The biggest obstacle in reaching our goal with both first EPC editions >was that we started far too late. If we don't start now, it will be too >late again in 2004. I agree that it's good to get started soon, but I don't see that there is a problem to let this take a week or two. >I don't want to loose our precious time for 2004 by starting now a call >for candidates, discuss the candidatures, set up a pool, etc. There have been two offers to arrange EPC 2004: Oxford and G=F6teborg. This was openly discussed on the mailing list in late April. M-A Lemburg wrote that "Tim Couper told me about the possibility to do such an event in or near Oxford, UK, using college factilities." See http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2003-April/002879.html I heard no clear reiteration of that in Charleroi. If Tim is eager, he's very subtle... Dario Lopez-K=E4sten offered to arrange it at Chalmers, the technical university in G=F6teborg, and a very suitable location for EPC. See http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2003-April/002894.html Considering what you are writing now, I suppose there could have been more communication than there have been, but you can't expect everybody to be aware of what you wrote in a single email in November last year, or that they should absolutely agree. Noone commented on that proposal in November or later as far as I can see in the archives, and I don't understand how you are thinking if you imagine that there was some kind of decision or consensus about your idea of a close collaboration between the 2003 and 2004 arrangers, or that those who have offered to do 2004 has somehow not lived up to expectations. It seems to me that they are much further ahead in their planning not than you were a year ago. What happened was that Marc-Andre basically ended the discussion on April 29 by saying "Great ! Let's discuss this at in 58 days :-)" http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2003-April/002901.html I can't see that you objected against that. Noone object to that then, and if you felt that a more clear and formal dicussion about EPC 2004 should have taken place in or before Charleroi, you certainly had the chance to do that. >But I >would be glad to do such a thing for 2005. For me, candidates should not >only declare themselves, but work hard on one year edition if they are >volunteering for the next one. Having done the same job well before is certainly a good way to show ones worth, but there are other ways to show dedication and capability. We're after all talking about the company where Alex Martelli, Laura Creighton and Jacob Hall=E9n works... I trust that they *will* do it if they offer to do it. At least Alex have been an appreciated contributor to EuroPython this year. I seem to have seen a lot of involvement from Laura as well. Laura and Jacob were obviously very busy negotiating with Andy Robinson's ReportLab during EuroPython which you might have heard, and they have also started to build up the Python Business Forum during the time since last EuroPython. As far as I understand, they were very involved in the PyPy sprint just before EuroPython. They also run one of the major Python companies, and for instance, they sponsored the UK Python conference at the ACCU Conference. Right now I suppose they might be on their way to OSCON, where at least Alex and Laura will talk during next week. One big advantage for Jacob and the others at Strakt is that they already have all the contacts they need to arrange this in G=F6teborg. That is an advantage in G=F6teborg, but it doesn't mean that they would be able to offer more than anyone else for an arrangement in Charleroi or any other place. I don't see that they would be more or less capable of fixing the conference in G=F6teborg if they have been involved more with this years EuroPython web site etc. I doubt that they will offer to do EPC2004 if their proposal would be considered hostile though. I'm sure they have much better things to do than to fight over this. I feel a bit sad now, because I feel that the preparations for 2004 have gotten a poor start this way. G=F6teborg could have been a great place to host Europython 2004. Not that Chareroi is bad, but I honestly think G=F6teborg could have been even better. This is not because the Strakt people would do a better job than the Aragne people, but because the conference rooms would be better, sprints could run in the same locations, there would be 20 Euro rooms on walking distance from the conference, and the city of G=F6teborg would also be on walking distance from the conference, with all it has to offer, from Scandiavias best amusement park for the playful, one of the worlds best concert halls for the musical, the nice southern archipelago that can be reached with a plain "bus" ticket etc etc. Sure, it's further to travel if you live in Belgium or France, but Ryanair flies there from London, Frankfurt and Glasgow, as well as most other major airlines. There are ferries from UK, Denmark and Germany directly to G=F6teborg, and so on. We also have common root with many of you. Wallonians built the city in the 17th century (to defend us against the Danes) and later, the trade and industry was dominated by people from the U.K, especially Scotland. Actually, the church next to which Rob Roy is buried is an exact copy of the church that brewer master Carneige built for his workers in the G=F6teborg harbour. After all, if you're a Scotsman and have paid the architect...why not build one more copy of the church in your old home village... -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language=20 From Tom Deprez" <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704002956.01f85300@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <00c101c3420c$07437cd0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> >> this time hopefully budgeting for their >> time expenses as well :-) > > I see a smiley, but it doesn't look like a funny joke to me. If > Marc-Andre is suggesting that the arrangers make money on this > event, I'd certainly like to see some competing offers and a > possibility to select whatever gives more bang for the bucks. Gosh.... this idea makes me cry. Do people really think we earn money on organising it? Really forget it, you don't. It's even possible you loose money. Aragne took the risk twice and the first year they last money, this year they were break even. I've spend each day for several mounts around 2-3 hours mailing each other (getting people to work, reminding people of promises they did, ...) , IRC, contacting, writing, website and hell it seems I forget a lot of things (that's good I guess, I don't want to be reminded on some). None of them are payed and yes, there are far better ways to spend your hours... So if people even think somebody of the organisators earn money on this, well.... I don't know. You just have to be stupid to even want to do something like helping in such an event. Ieck... the idea alone that people think we earn money, really I'm to emotionaly evolved in this. Be sure of this: I will not do this again, certainly not in that amount and next year. For the other points, I think the mail of Denis gives a good point of our view on it. For now I don't want to react on it. It all is too early for me. But if people would like to organise a poll on this subject, go ahead, please do. I'm only afraid that the poll will result in: 1. too less reaction 2. two fronts of people, like it is now. people who like the decision and others who hate the decision. 3. At the end no outcome and any decision will give a whole bunch of unhappy people. If a clear decision comes out (and reasonable on time) I'm just a happy man. Another point. Yes, EPC has to move around Europe. I was even one of the people telling it should. And I still believe it. But as Francis told us, you need volunteers for that. It is also good that people willing to organise the next are very active in the conference the year before. This for the continuity. And last, we hope that EPC becomes so big the CEME won't be an option anymore. Enough said at the moment, I need to rethink this all over. T. From magnus@thinkware.se Fri Jul 4 10:45:48 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 11:45:48 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <00c101c3420c$07437cd0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704002956.01f85300@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030704113718.01fc4018@www.thinkware.se> At 11:09 2003-07-04 +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: >Do people really think we earn money on organising it? No, and I don't think it's really reasonable. I hope that it has given you experience and contacts that will be useful for you in the future though. I was trying to understand what Marc-Andre meant. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From magnus@thinkware.se Fri Jul 4 12:08:21 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 13:08:21 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> References: <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030704111214.01f6acc8@www.thinkware.se> At 10:33 2003-07-04 +0200, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: >Please don't drop the ball. I agree that Denis and Tom shouldn't "drop the ball", but I think we should be open to alternatives. I would be very happy if they would reformulate their "decision" to arrange EPC 2004 to an "offer" to arrange EPC 2004 and let us look at this together with alternatives for maybe two weeks or so. I think it would be awful if there was some kind of split among the people who work for Europython. I felt very welcome in Charleroi, and I really enjoyed what Denis, Tom and the others had made, so it's painful to write these emails, it really is, but in a year from now, I hope we will all be happy that we didn't make a premature decision now. Sometimes email feel like a really poor way of communication. If we had been sitting face to face, I don't think it would be clear to all all involved that this is nothing personal, but that we think differently about how to decide things like that, and I think it's reasonable that we do that, and that it's important that we can solve this in an open and constructive way. There was obviously an offer from G=F6teborg to arrange 2004, and I think it will lead to some bad feelings that might shadow next years event if this option isn't even discussed. There are pros and cons with every alternative. Maybe G=F6teborg is to far away for too many people? Maybe there are other disadvantages? Perhaps it is better to wait for 2005? I think the least we can do is to have a look at a proposal, instead of rushing to a decision. I agree that this shouldn't take too long. I share Denis' worries that preparations for next year could get late again. As I said before, this might be a cultural thing. In different places, we have different ways of arriving at conclusions and we find different methods more or less acceptable. With a mixed group like this, I guess we have to work that out somehow. I think it has to take some time. For the future it might be good if we could decide on some kind of decision making process, so that we don't have to argue about points of order. The G=F6teborg alternative was proposed in april, and Marc-Andre the one who suggested that we should let that issue rest until we came to Charleroi. It was discussed there, but not a lot, which is under- standable, since everybody was busy with the current events. I heard Laura and Jacob state clearly that they were prepared to do it though. They were certainly more clear about their ambition than Denis was then. >Would be nice if the candidates for the next events would step >forward. Agreed. Even if Laura and Jacob have been verbal about this I'd like to see a clear statement to the mailing list about it. If nothing else, it's good to have the propsal in the mailing list archives. If there are other solid offers I'd like to see them as well of course. >>Gosh, I thought I had understood Francis Glasborough... :-( > >You did :-) But he isn't running Europython, and I bet he didn't have half the relevant experience of the G=F6teborg team when he started doing the ACCU conference. It also seems he's doing this more or less on his own. With the people in G=F6teborg, I think the effort would survive even if (touch wood) someone would be hit by a bus. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language=20 From faassen@vet.uu.nl Fri Jul 4 12:46:33 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 13:46:33 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> Message-ID: <20030704114633.GA14604@vet.uu.nl> Denis wrote: > Le Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 11:59:26PM +0200, Martijn Faassen pianota: > > Martijn Faassen wrote: > > > Just a comment, but I thought we're deciding rather *rapidly* on Eu= roPython > > > 2004...=20 > >=20 > > [...] Anyway, I just wanted to express my displeasure in stronger > > wording. > > [...] > > This really really sucks. >=20 > I shouldn't have read my mails just before to go to sleep... now, I fee= l > I have to answer as soon as possible. I'm tired and the poor English > language will suffer even more than usually. >=20 > We had a lot of discussions about this during the conference. We, i.e. > Tom and me, were hesitating when people were asking us to do it again i= n > Charleroi (while EuroPython is still maturing). The advices were almost > always the same : "Do it again excepted if you don't want to do it=20 > again". Odd, nobody seemed to bring up the topic to me. All I know about it was when Tim Couper did the informal poll and two alternate locations had apparently come up. > I even asked Guido's advice (after all, he is the benevolent dictator). > He used the words : "Don't change a winning team...". Guido as far as I'm aware has nothing to do with our conference organizat= ion. I thought *I* was part of the team, but nobody seem to have inquired after my opinion. > So, we asked for a few nights reflexion. And my thought was that if we > work well enough, it will be the last year we can hold EPC in Charleroi. > We will soon saturate the CEME and the hotel possibilities in that smal= l > town. I hesitated to use the word 'apotheosis' because I feel that 2004 > could be a last great success in Charleroi, and then EPC will need a > bigger welcoming town. We've already had two opportunities in Charleroi. Other locales have had zero opportunities, and this decision seems to force this for 2004 as wel= l. > I took the decision to announce it because two year experiences shows > the same pattern : > 1. long silence and inaction > 2. long discussion threads when decisions begin to be declared > 3. a big frightening silence (yes it's frightening when you're taking > the financial responsability) > 4. a frenetic run to achieve something rather honourable. I recall a certain #europython IRC channel where a bunch of us hung out for *months* almost daily. I also recall I had to go through Tom to barely get a message out of you. I recall a certain=20 issue tracker which to my knowledge was not actively used by you, but by = which we tried to manage matters. If you'd like to hear more noise in this 'big frightening silence' all yo= u had to do is actually join the irc channel or participate in the issue=20 tracker and we'd have been happy to talk to you. > I will propose you all to have a look at your archives. Here is what I > was asking on the 19/11/2002 : >=20 > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - > Subject: [EuroPython] Report 2002 - proposal 2003 - 2004 > From: Denis Fr=E8re > To: EuroPython main > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 04:50:44 +0100 >=20 > [...] >=20 > For the rest, I would like to propose something : the one who wants to > organize the EPC 2004 should work very tightly with us on the 2003 > edition so that the relay will be soft. >=20 > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - Did any call go out to the public about participating in 2004?=20 Note that at least Laura Creighton was there in many of our IRC sessions, and she's in Gotenburg. Perhaps she missed this single message in november of 2002. :) > There are two main parts in the conference : the 'theoretical' one > (programs) and the 'practical' one (real world tasks). >=20 > For the first part, track chairmen did a good job : I didn't stick my > nose in the program (though I sometimes think I should do).=20 > But for the second part, no local team candidate showed up. So, I don't > quite understand why there should be any last minute turnaround. With this kind of communication I'm not surprised no one took action! If you want to recruit another team you'd better make some actual noise about it. I had not the faintest idea that this meant that then the whole organization would default to Charleroi again. Nobody announced this to my knowledge. If you had been clear about this perhaps matters would have been different, but one email is frequently not enough to reach peop= le. > I would like to conclude for today and go to sleep : >=20 > I don't want to fight against my friends (and will it or not, Martijn, = I > count you among them).=20 > I just want to fight to make Python "10 times bigger" (TM Paul Everitt) >=20 > The biggest obstacle in reaching our goal with both first EPC editions > was that we started far too late. If we don't start now, it will be too > late again in 2004. This incredible sense of urgency displayed less than a *week* after the conference ended is misplaced. It's fine to plan ahead of time, but=20 this doesn't mean we should throw all deliberation or openness of process out of the window. > I don't want to loose our precious time for 2004 by starting now a call > for candidates, discuss the candidatures, set up a pool, etc. Again, this incredible sense of urgency is misplaced and cannot be used as an excuse. > But I > would be glad to do such a thing for 2005. For me, candidates should no= t > only declare themselves, but work hard on one year edition if they are > volunteering for the next one. This notification came too late. You can't seriously claim that one=20 minimal message in November about this is sufficient to inform people. This can not now be a reason to force a 2004 decision. > So, again, I propose to candidates for 2005 to declare themselves *now*= , No, candidates for 2004 should declare themselves. In fact, I thought two candidates had already declared themselves. Again a rather insane sense of urgency is displayed, asking that candiates for *2005* declare themselves now, five minutes after the conference ended, in 2003. This is= not=20 the olympic games.=20 > to build a candidature file, and to earn the decision in showing us how > motivated they are : there is plenty of 'real world tasks' that can be > accomplished from anywhere in the world, no need to be in the local tea= m > for most of these. > If you show me that the majority of people who did work on EPC 2002 and > 2003 (I say 'work', not 'talk') reject this proposal, I'm ready to drop > the baby right now. The thing at issue is not the 2005 and transition proposal. The thing at issue is the unilateral action concerning 2004. You now lay on *me* the burden to find people who are opposed to this, while *you* took the unilateral action. It should have been *your* burden to make sure this was discussed openly, as you made this decision and forced it on us. It is now my responsibility to protest loudly. [telling me to hurry] This is misplaced urgency; I'm supposed to hurry as *you* think you have = to act=20 right now? I think you should *definitely* cool down after this conference for a whi= le, as you're still caught up in the urgency of the conference organization after it already ended. Give it a while to gain some perspective, please? Regards, Martijn From mal@lemburg.com Fri Jul 4 12:57:16 2003 From: mal@lemburg.com (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 13:57:16 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030704113718.01fc4018@www.thinkware.se> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704002956.01f85300@www.thinkware.se> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704113718.01fc4018@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <3F056B9C.6060703@lemburg.com> Magnus Lyck=E5 wrote: > At 11:09 2003-07-04 +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: >=20 >> Do people really think we earn money on organising it? >=20 > No, and I don't think it's really reasonable. I hope that > it has given you experience and contacts that will be > useful for you in the future though. >=20 > I was trying to understand what Marc-Andre meant. I meant that Tom and Denis should add proper compensation for their invested time to the conference budget, just like a professional organizer would. You as consultant should know that good work needs good pay and I can't really understand your position in suggesting that Tom and Denis should continue to do their job for free. Talking at a conference is one thing, organizing a track another, but making the whole event happen is on a completely different scale. Even more if you take on huge financial risks. --=20 Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Software directly from the Source (#1, Jul 04 2003) >>> Python/Zope Products & Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ >>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/ ________________________________________________________________________ 2003-07-01: Released mxODBC.Zope.DA for FreeBSD 1.0.6 beta 1 From faassen@vet.uu.nl Fri Jul 4 12:58:16 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 13:58:16 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> Message-ID: <20030704115816.GB14604@vet.uu.nl> M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > Denis wrote: > >If you show me that the majority of people who did work on EPC 2002 and > >2003 (I say 'work', not 'talk') reject this proposal, I'm ready to drop > >the baby right now. But hurry up, I already invited some people to be > >our keynote speakers and I almost signed for the CEME (there is a > >discount when you book enough in advance). > > Please don't drop the ball. Just because one or two verbose > people oppose the decision making process doesn't mean that > all the rest have the same feelings. Just because you claim this doesn't mean 'all the rest' have the same feelings as *you* either. Naturally most people don't even *know* about this whole matter right now. I will again state that I am displeased by your casual waving away of my objections by turning me into part of "just one or two verbose people". > Besides, there will be many years to come, so there are > plenty of opportunities for other organizers in other parts of > Europe. Not if this is the way the organization makes decisions. The organization is in trouble if this turns into a common pattern. Regards, Martijn From lac@strakt.com Fri Jul 4 13:03:52 2003 From: lac@strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 14:03:52 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: Message from "M.-A. Lemburg" of "Fri, 04 Jul 2003 10:33:25 +0200." <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> Message-ID: <200307041203.h64C3qOs021784@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Fri, 04 Jul 2003 10:33:25 +0200, "M.-A. Lemburg" writes: >Would be nice if the candidates for the next events would step >forward. I know that Strakt has offered to do an event in Sweden and >there were other proposals from people in Zürich and even Tunesia >(nice beaches, but outside Europe). I also wouldn't mind spending a >few days in Prague, Budapest or Italy (hint, hint). Correction: there are people in Gothenburg who would like to organise having EuroPython here. Only some of us work for Strakt. I think the original proposal came from Dario Lopez-K?sten at Chalmers. Laura From faassen@vet.uu.nl Fri Jul 4 13:17:15 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 14:17:15 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <00c101c3420c$07437cd0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704002956.01f85300@www.thinkware.se> <00c101c3420c$07437cd0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> Message-ID: <20030704121715.GC14604@vet.uu.nl> Tom Deprez wrote: > > Marc-Andre is suggesting that the arrangers make money on this > > event, I'd certainly like to see some competing offers and a > > possibility to select whatever gives more bang for the bucks. > > Gosh.... this idea makes me cry. Do people really think we earn money on > organising it? I don't read his suggestion that way. What Marc-Andre meant was that the organizers *deserve* to budget their time as it is as you describe a lot of work. This can be discussed, but of course if this is decided on the transparency of the decision making process becomes even more important. This was the intent of Magnus' message. [snip] > For the other points, I think the mail of Denis gives a good point of > our view on it. For now I don't want to react on it. It all is too early > for me. Yes, it is all too soon for me too. I rather exploded last night when I saw this had happened. I am now left to argue with people who I like and did hard work with, but I feel it as my responsibility to actually object. :( > But if people would like to organise a poll on this subject, go > ahead, please do. I'm not suggesting a poll as such. I'm suggesting we withdraw the current decision and have some proper discussion about it first. We need to dispassionately review the alternatives. We need to strive for actual consensus. We need to make sure that the people who *should* know about this (i.e the people active in organizing the conferences previously, and the people who are proposing to be active for 2004 as well). If we reach a consensus on the location, then so much for the better. If not we will have to come up with a better way to make a decision, but whatever the outcome at least people will feel they have been heard. > I'm only afraid that the poll will result in: > > 1. too less reaction > 2. two fronts of people, like it is now. people who like the decision > and others who hate the decision. What we have now is people who make the decision and people who *object to the process of making this decision*. We who object to the process of the decision obviously have another motive; we would prefer the conference to move around. If we wanted it to stay in Charleroi we might not have objected so strenuously. But this does not take away from my primary objection -- the quality of the decision making itself, not the quality of the decision. If it is decided to be Charleroi again in an open process, I can feel relaxed and participate. This was not an open process and I feel upset and not very prone to help. :( > 3. At the end no outcome and any decision will give a whole bunch of > unhappy people. You misunderstand the nature of this discussion. This is not about the decision, but the matter in how it was reached and announced to world. > If a clear decision comes out (and reasonable on time) I'm just a happy > man. Me too. > Another point. Yes, EPC has to move around Europe. I was even one of the > people telling it should. And I still believe it. But as Francis told > us, you need volunteers for that. You also need people to give any volunteers a chance. You are a saint so you may not believe it, but sometimes one needs to *push* volunteers into action. Actually with the experience you had with EuroPython I suspect you fully understand. :) > It is also good that people willing to > organise the next are very active in the conference the year before. > This for the continuity. I've helped to organize EuroPython for 2 years now, and I am willing to help for the 3rd year as well (but not like this! I feel the bad guy, and I don't want to be!). I'm sure you would do the same, as well as Denis, and most others. I do not think continuity is in danger. Regards, Martijn From mwh@python.net Fri Jul 4 13:17:34 2003 From: mwh@python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 13:17:34 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> (Denis's message of "Fri, 4 Jul 2003 03:37:39 +0200") References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> Message-ID: <2mfzlmpjtt.fsf@starship.python.net> I've tried to read this thread slowly and dispassionately, which hasn't been totally easy. I think it's wonderful that we're thinking seriously about EP2004 *now*. I hope this results in a better con. However. Denis writes: > If you show me that the majority of people who did work on EPC 2002 and > 2003 (I say 'work', not 'talk') reject this proposal, I'm ready to drop > the baby right now. But hurry up, I already invited some people to be > our keynote speakers and I almost signed for the CEME (there is a > discount when you book enough in advance). Denis, do you understand why Martijn is a bit frustrated by this repsonse? You've appeared in a cloud of smoke with a plan -- a perfectly reasonable plan, to my mind -- with no hint of where it came from. Cheers, M. -- incidentally, asking why things are "left out of the language" is a good sign that the asker is fairly clueless. -- Erik Naggum, comp.lang.lisp From dario@ita.chalmers.se Fri Jul 4 13:47:08 2003 From: dario@ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 14:47:08 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704002956.01f85300@www.thinkware.se> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704113718.01fc4018@www.thinkware.se> <3F056B9C.6060703@lemburg.com> Message-ID: <000b01c3422a$6137c390$6500a8c0@WALTER> From: "M.-A. Lemburg" > >Magnus Lyckå wrote: >> At 11:09 2003-07-04 +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: >> >>> Do people really think we earn money on organising it? >> >> No, and I don't think it's really reasonable. I hope that >> it has given you experience and contacts that will be >> useful for you in the future though. >> >> I was trying to understand what Marc-Andre meant. > >I meant that Tom and Denis should add proper compensation for >their invested time to the conference budget, just like a >professional organizer would. > >You as consultant should know that good work needs good pay and >I can't really understand your position in suggesting that Tom >and Denis should continue to do their job for free. > If organising the EuroPython Conferences deteriorates into a way for those involved to make a buck, I am not interested in participating. I don't give a 2 öre about statements like "good work needs good pay". Maybe I am a special case (not likely) but to me good work is good work regardless of whether it pays off or not, and bad work is to be avoided. Now, if this is about compensating some individuals for the extraordinarly hard/good work they have done and the time they have devoted **because they suffered a loss that was not expected**, ie. consulting work that was delayed, forced unpayed vacation from normal day work because of the amount of conference work involved, etc., then that is perfectly allright by me. I am in a fortunate position to be able to do such work as organising conferences without needing to have to get reimbursed for my time: I have a normal day job and I can devote evenings and weekends and some times an odd hour or two during a normal workday to do conference work. I know that others do not have the possiblity. Now to the question of how it gets decide who gets compensated: I wonder what kind of entity EuroPython (EP) really is. * Is it a user group? * Is it an Interest Group of Commercial Entities to promote Python? * Is it the informal organising committee of the EP conferences? The kind of entity that EP turns out to be will reflect on how decisions of compensating involved parties will be made and what kind of transparency exists in the organisation. Anyone can shed some light on this? /dario - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de Fri Jul 4 13:51:25 2003 From: gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 14:51:25 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030704115816.GB14604@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <38C1581E-AE1E-11D7-92DC-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> I suggest all you combatants take a rest from this silly flame war and stop spoiling the memories of everybody who attended EPC2002/3! Please do and enjoy the weekend to come to clear up your minds and come back with fresh ideas about the future of promoting Python on European conferences! Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman ...................................................................... "La seule mani=E8re de parler de rien est d'en parler comme si c'=E9tait quelque chose, tout comme la seule mani=E8re de parler de Dieu est d'en parler comme s'il =E9tait un homme." (Samual Beckett) From dario@ita.chalmers.se Fri Jul 4 13:59:56 2003 From: dario@ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 14:59:56 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <200307041203.h64C3qOs021784@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <001601c3422c$2ad8c770$6500a8c0@WALTER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laura Creighton" > > Correction: there are people in Gothenburg who would like to organise > having EuroPython here. Only some of us work for Strakt. I think the > original proposal came from Dario Lopez-K?sten at Chalmers. > Yes, and despite my previous message I am still interested in helping to organise it here, if it is in the same non-profit spirit as it has been conducted up to now. However, the them of this discussion (or flemawar as someone put it) seems not to be the venue of the conference, but rather how decisions are made. For this reason I really really think that the issue of what kind of orgnasisation EuroPython is, is an important one to answer. When this happens, we will not have more opportunuties to discuss how decisions are made, because it will be perfectly clear and in the open how decisions are made, by whom and with what authority. Cheers, /dario - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From magnus@thinkware.se Fri Jul 4 14:12:43 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 15:12:43 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <3F056B9C.6060703@lemburg.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030704113718.01fc4018@www.thinkware.se> <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704002956.01f85300@www.thinkware.se> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704113718.01fc4018@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030704141119.01eeffd0@www.thinkware.se> At 13:57 2003-07-04 +0200, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: >I meant that Tom and Denis should add proper compensation for >their invested time to the conference budget, just like a >professional organizer would. It seems you meant just what I feared, despite the smiley, and I stand by what I said. I appreciate the moral support you are showing them. I also appreciate what they did, and I certainly hope that they will have a solid economy, but I don't think this is the way to achieve that. I hope Europython has given Aragne a lot of attention that will turn into business in time. We can obviously consider several ways of arranging a conference such as EPC. For me it's completely clear that if the people who host the conference want to run it as a commercial event, I insist that there should be some competition and proper procurement procedures. I don't like monopolies. And with all respect for Denis, Tom and the others: they are *not* professional conference arrangers, and I hope they don't want to become that either. If we wanted to run this as a purely commercial event, there are others that have much more routine in doing such things. Frankly, if someone is to be paid at resonable rates for the hours they spend, I'd prefer that it's someone who does this all the time, someone who is an expert on this very field, and don't need to discover how to do it as they do it. Having done something twice does not make you a professional. I wouldn't suggest that you hire me as a car mechanic for the rates I charge as a programmer, even if I have fixed cars now and then. One thing that we must understand is the power and energy that comes when someone is doing things out of passion and engagement, when they do something just because they like it. This doesn't always mix well with payment I'm afraid. It *can* work, but if money is involved, there is a much bigger risk that people continue to take on tasks when the spark has been lost, and that doesn't work very well. It's completely clear to me that money won't *create* this power and energy. I certainly assume that the other people who will have to work unpaid for EPC will want the financial dealings of the hosting organization to be clear and open, if they can even consider doing it at all. Somehow, it's very different if we're all in the same boat, or if "some animals are more equal than others" as Orwell put it. If EuroPython is to stay a community event, it's imperative that we separate the decision making from the profit making. If we pay people to work with it, it can't be the people who are getting paid that calls the shots. Then it won't be a community event. >You as consultant should know that good work needs good pay and >I can't really understand your position in suggesting that Tom >and Denis should continue to do their job for free. I'm amazed to hear such a statement from someone who is involved in open source software development. Do I dare to use mxDateTime any more? :) You don't charge anyone for answering emails at the db-sig mailing list, do you? I actually think I've spent about as much time answering email on the tutor mailing list last year as Denis spent on arranging Europython. I'm guessing widly, but I'm sure it's much, much more time than any of the track chairmen spent on their tracks. I can't charge money for that. On the other hand, it's actually led to some contacts that in turn led to some income for me. I also learnt a lot that I think has made me a better professional. You can't bill for ever hour you spend working. Sometimes we must sow so that we can harvest later. Some of the seeds we sow won't grow. That's life. >Talking at a conference is one thing, organizing a track >another, but making the whole event happen is on a completely >different scale. Even more if you take on huge financial >risks. I can certainly agree with the last part. It's not reasonable that Denis or Aragne takes on a big finacial risk arranging this. That is something entirely different than to get paid for time spent. I think the solution to that would be some kind of legal body that stands behind Europython. I don't think this is quite the right time to decide about that though. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From magnus@thinkware.se Fri Jul 4 14:38:38 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 15:38:38 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030704121715.GC14604@vet.uu.nl> References: <00c101c3420c$07437cd0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704002956.01f85300@www.thinkware.se> <00c101c3420c$07437cd0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030704151819.01fb15f8@www.thinkware.se> At 14:17 2003-07-04 +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: >I don't read his suggestion that way. What Marc-Andre meant was that the >organizers *deserve* to budget their time as it is as you describe >a lot of work. This can be discussed, but of course if this is decided >on the transparency of the decision making process becomes even more >important. This was the intent of Magnus' message. Martijn is channeling me correctly. >I'm not suggesting a poll as such. I'm suggesting we withdraw the current >decision and have some proper discussion about it first. We need to >dispassionately review the alternatives. We need to strive for >actual consensus. We need to make sure that the people who *should* >know about this (i.e the people active in organizing the conferences >previously, and the people who are proposing to be active >for 2004 as well). Agreed. For me, there are a lot of practical things to consider. Am I the only one who feels that it was more difficult to listen to talks in "Salle Polyvalente B" than in the "Auditorium"? Such practical matters such as acustics and ventilation are important to me. It's nice to go to Belgium, meet nice people (even if I might get inte flamewars with them on he mailing lists ;) and drink Chimay. Still, if I feel that it's difficult to hear what people are saying, and if I'm bothered about bad air in the end of the sessions, this is a significant drawback for me. By the way, a severe disadvantage with G=F6teborg is that the local brewer (Pripps) produces beer that is closer to cats piss than to the wonderful belgian Trappist Beer. (Can you please bring a truck load of Chimay to G=F6teborg? :) >If we reach a consensus on the location, then so much for the better. >If not we will have to come up with a better way to make a decision, >but whatever the outcome at least people will feel they have been heard. Agreed. And I think we can reach a consensus if we just let it take some time and all try to do our best to find constructive solutions. I've made some concrete suggestions about what I felt could be improved in Charleroi. If these things can be solved I'll be happy to sample the Trappist offerings next year too, and hope that we'll do G=F6teborg in 2005. I do think it would be nice if my old hometown would host Europython, but 2005 might be even better. By then I might have moved back there from the horrible polar regions where I live now. In the end, I think we all want EPC 2004 to be as successful as possible, and conflicts won't achieve that. I think we all want to try to pull in the same direction, but we got an unsynchronized start it seems. I hope that can be fixed. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language=20 From rev_anna_r@yahoo.com Fri Jul 4 14:48:52 2003 From: rev_anna_r@yahoo.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 06:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <38C1581E-AE1E-11D7-92DC-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: <20030704134852.39168.qmail@web12306.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dinu Gherman wrote: > I suggest all you combatants take a rest from this silly flame war > and stop spoiling the memories of everybody who attended EPC2002/3! > > Please do and enjoy the weekend to come to clear up your minds and > come back with fresh ideas about the future of promoting Python > on European conferences! Hear Hear! FWIW - Minicon, the largest science fiction convention in the world for 30 years running at 3000 people (excepting Worldcon), is run by an all-volunteer community group. No one gets compensated monetarily (although they do take a little of the proceeds to throw a "volunteers-only party" after the event). Even they take a month off after each convention before gearing up again for the next year. It's called "perspective". Recuperate from last year and avoid burnout... And I'm headed today to one of their offshoots, called Convergence and then to OSCON. So PLEASE don't make any major decisions in the next week? I'd very much like to be involved in EP2004, but I'd like to take a little time to savor the successes of EP2003 (which *all* of us, particularly Tom Deprez, worked on hard). Anna From gotcha@swing.be Fri Jul 4 14:50:42 2003 From: gotcha@swing.be (Godefroid Chapelle) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 15:50:42 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <38C1581E-AE1E-11D7-92DC-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> References: <20030704115816.GB14604@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030704154410.01faeb60@pop.swing.be> At 14:51 4/07/2003, Dinu Gherman wrote: >I suggest all you combatants take a rest from this silly flame war >and stop spoiling the memories of everybody who attended EPC2002/3! > >Please do and enjoy the weekend to come to clear up your minds and >come back with fresh ideas about the future of promoting Python >on European conferences! > >Dinu I really second Dinu on that... Please, Denis and Tom, do feel how much your work has been appreciated (and all others which more than helped you two) and let others time to take the relay. Please, Martijn and Magnus, do understand that your questions about decision process have been heard. Please, Dario, Laura, (and other people wanting to volunteer for EPC2004), stand up and tell about it quickly... as I think that EPC2003 team leaders have a good point at insisting that a decision needs to be taken : I'd propose August 15th as a not breakable deadline. -- Godefroid Chapelle BubbleNet sprl rue Victor Horta, 18 / 202 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve Belgium Tel + 32 (10) 459901 TVA 467 093 008 RC Niv 49849 From faassen@vet.uu.nl Fri Jul 4 14:55:22 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 15:55:22 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <001601c3422c$2ad8c770$6500a8c0@WALTER> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <200307041203.h64C3qOs021784@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <001601c3422c$2ad8c770$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <20030704135521.GB15090@vet.uu.nl> Dario Lopez-K=E4sten wrote: > However, the theme of this discussion (or flemawar as someone put it) s= eems > not to be the venue of the conference, but rather how decisions are mad= e. > For this reason I really really think that the issue of what kind of > orgnasisation EuroPython is, is an important one to answer. I agree. I think the most constructive thing that can be done now is to spend some time getting a clear organization in place. Planning for EP 2004 is important and it's great it's happening now, but it's not desparately urgent at this stage either and some details can wait until the organization is more or less in place. I'm willing to commit some of my time in helping to found such an=20 organization. If not everybody hates my guts now. :) Regards, Martijn From magnus@thinkware.se Fri Jul 4 15:07:17 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 16:07:17 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <001601c3422c$2ad8c770$6500a8c0@WALTER> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <200307041203.h64C3qOs021784@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030704153852.02016e30@www.thinkware.se> At 14:59 2003-07-04 +0200, Dario Lopez-K=E4sten wrote: >Yes, and despite my previous message I am still interested in helping to >organise it here, if it is in the same non-profit spirit as it has been >conducted up to now. Great, I hope that Dario and the others in G=F6teborg can present a more concrete proposal about it fairly soon so that we know what a conference there would be like. I assume a conference in Charleroi next year would basically be like this year. I'd be curious to hear what the Aragne people think they could improve though. It seems only one verbose person ;) objects to that non-profit spirit, and he's already stated that it would be all to expensive to arrange the conference on his turf, so I don't think that is a problem. >However, the them of this discussion (or flemawar as someone put it) seems >not to be the venue of the conference, but rather how decisions are made. >For this reason I really really think that the issue of what kind of >orgnasisation EuroPython is, is an important one to answer. Today there is no formal Europython entity as far as I understand. This was something Denis described as a problem when we talked in Charleroi. >When this happens, we will not have more opportunuties to discuss how >decisions are made, because it will be perfectly clear and in the open how >decisions are made, by whom and with what authority. I had a thought that it might be practical to make EuroPython into a SIG under the Python Business Foundation. That requires that the board of the PBF will agree to do that of cource. If it means that PBF take a financial risk, there might also be a need for an extra general assembly to get the support of the PBF members. The problem with this suggestion is that a few in the G=F6teborg team happen to be in the PBF board, e.g. the Chairman, Jacob Hall=E9n. If there is a feeling of a dispute between proponents of G=F6teborg and Charleroi, this might be concidered a problem. Personally I feel that both Jacob and Laura have enough integrity, and above all, a passion for the Python community and the growth of Python in Europe, that they will do what is best, even if it's not always what they'd personally desire. One could also imagine that deciding on location is left to the SIG, and that the board stays out of that--but in the end, it's that board that is responsible for finance etc before the members, so they can't wash their hands if the SIG causes a financial disaster. A definite disadvantage with putting EPC under PBF is that I, as auditor of the PBF, will have much more work with next years auditing if all bills for Europython will be included. :( Hm... Maybe it was a bad suggestion from the beginning... ;) -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language=20 From mal@lemburg.com Fri Jul 4 15:17:45 2003 From: mal@lemburg.com (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 16:17:45 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030704153852.02016e30@www.thinkware.se> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <200307041203.h64C3qOs021784@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704153852.02016e30@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <3F058C89.5020106@lemburg.com> Just one last word: after this heated debate is over, we'll be at the same point we were earlier this year. The usual suspects will have come up with tons of great proposals, no one will have actually picked up the flag and it's Tom and Denis organizing EPC 2004 again (provided they still feel like doing another one at that point, which I'd doubt). Strange kind of "community" this is :-/ Now where's that fast forward button... -- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Software directly from the Source (#1, Jul 04 2003) >>> Python/Zope Products & Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ >>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/ ________________________________________________________________________ 2003-07-01: Released mxODBC.Zope.DA for FreeBSD 1.0.6 beta 1 From magnus@thinkware.se Fri Jul 4 15:23:31 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 16:23:31 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030704134852.39168.qmail@web12306.mail.yahoo.com> References: <38C1581E-AE1E-11D7-92DC-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030704160732.01f81188@www.thinkware.se> At 06:48 2003-07-04 -0700, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: >Even they take a month off after each convention before gearing up >again for the next year. It's called "perspective". Recuperate from >last year and avoid burnout... Right. When people talk about productivity and creativity, the concept of flow comes up now and then. I think it was Kent Beck who wrote in a book about Extreme Programming that one of the advantages with pair programming is that it prevents flow! It might be surprising to cite that as an advantage, but anyone who tries to do test-first programming know that it's difficult (or impossible?) to combine with flow. There is certainly a contradiction between flow and adrenaline rushes on one hand, and on perspective and reflexion on the other. Besides the recuperation, it's probably a good idea to let the experiences from one conference settle properly, and use that experience in planning the next. If we decide on a routine where we start planning EPC n one month after EPC n-1, people will have 11 months to prepare if it's always at the same time of the year. That should certainly be enough if people get going as soon as the decision has been made. >And I'm headed today to one of their offshoots, called Convergence and >then to OSCON. So PLEASE don't make any major decisions in the next >week? Agreed. At least Laura will go to OSCON as well, and I think we should let her think about that, as well as about answering my questions about software patents etc. :) At 15:50 2003-07-04 +0200, Godefroid Chapelle wrote: >I'd propose August 15th as a not breakable deadline. Is this OK with the Charleroi team? Or is it too late if you want to make various reservations? -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From faassen@vet.uu.nl Fri Jul 4 15:10:46 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 16:10:46 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] (no subject) Message-ID: <200307041410.QAA14619@dgkm.vet.uu.nl> @vet.uu.nl Cc: europython@python.org Subject: Re: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? Message-ID: <20030704141046.GB15348@vet.uu.nl> References: <20030704115816.GB14604@vet.uu.nl> <5.1.0.14.2.20030704154410.01faeb60@pop.swing.be> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030704154410.01faeb60@pop.swing.be> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Martijn Faassen Godefroid Chapelle wrote: > At 14:51 4/07/2003, Dinu Gherman wrote: > >I suggest all you combatants take a rest from this silly flame war > >and stop spoiling the memories of everybody who attended EPC2002/3! > > > >Please do and enjoy the weekend to come to clear up your minds and > >come back with fresh ideas about the future of promoting Python > >on European conferences! > > > >Dinu > > I really second Dinu on that... I agree with Dinu completely, except that the decision was already announced to the world yesterday on www.europython.org, which is how I found out about all this in the first place. Is it possible to take that notice down at least? I will then be able to enjoy my weekend too. I was already fully prepared to do so not thinking much about EP except to enjoy the photographs and to post some slides online, until I ran into said news item. Regards, Martijn From dario@ita.chalmers.se Fri Jul 4 15:29:57 2003 From: dario@ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 16:29:57 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <200307041203.h64C3qOs021784@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704153852.02016e30@www.thinkware.se> <3F058C89.5020106@lemburg.com> Message-ID: <007f01c34238$be840230$6500a8c0@WALTER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "M.-A. Lemburg" > Just one last word: after this heated debate is over, we'll be at > the same point we were earlier this year. The usual suspects will > have come up with tons of great proposals, no one will have actually > picked up the flag and it's Tom and Denis organizing EPC 2004 again > (provided they still feel like doing another one at that point, which > I'd doubt). > > Strange kind of "community" this is :-/ > > Now where's that fast forward button... > -- *sigh* Later today, I will put up a sample budget with real figures for a conference I am helping to organise later this year. I am not sure that it will be suitable for EuroPython, but it is a start. I really must say that the hard part is not the venue. It's getting hold of people that will provide content. And of course picking up sponsors. In any event, I hope that it will be a start, no matter where the conference can be held. Should I send the budget to the list or to specific people? /dario - going out to play with his kids - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From stephan.richter@tufts.edu Fri Jul 4 16:03:29 2003 From: stephan.richter@tufts.edu (Stephan Richter) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 11:03:29 -0400 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <3F056B9C.6060703@lemburg.com> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704113718.01fc4018@www.thinkware.se> <3F056B9C.6060703@lemburg.com> Message-ID: <200307041103.30831.stephan.richter@tufts.edu> On Friday 04 July 2003 07:57, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > Magnus Lyck=E5 wrote: > > At 11:09 2003-07-04 +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: > >> Do people really think we earn money on organising it? > > > > No, and I don't think it's really reasonable. I hope that > > it has given you experience and contacts that will be > > useful for you in the future though. > > > > I was trying to understand what Marc-Andre meant. > > I meant that Tom and Denis should add proper compensation for > their invested time to the conference budget, just like a > professional organizer would. > > You as consultant should know that good work needs good pay and > I can't really understand your position in suggesting that Tom > and Denis should continue to do their job for free. Huh? Organizing a conference is a community contribution like I contribute= =20 time to develop Zope 3 or organize writing a community book (I have done tw= o=20 of them so far).=20 And I think Tom and Denis agree with this. While most of us are consultants= ,=20 there is an intrinsic interest for all of us to see Python grow, so the tim= e=20 investment is like advertisement costs. > Talking at a conference is one thing, organizing a track > another, but making the whole event happen is on a completely > different scale. Even more if you take on huge financial > risks. =46inancial risk can be spread by finding sponsors and/or financial trustee= s.=20 The Linux Tag, e.V. is a very good example for this. Regards, Stephan =2D-=20 Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training From faassen@vet.uu.nl Fri Jul 4 16:06:40 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 17:06:40 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] let's all enjoy the weekend :) Message-ID: <20030704150640.GB15877@vet.uu.nl> Hey, The news item from europython.org was taken down by Tom (thanks Tom), and I hope Godefroid's proposal about a deadline will be accepted. After a period of cooling down, let's start up the following discussions: * the venue decision process. Let's weigh the alternatives for a bit. I hope some of the reasonable people who told us all to calm down can take the lead in guiding this discussion along. * a more formal organization that can help us with clearing up responsibility, risk, and transparent decision making. I'll send a mail to start off this discussion if nobody more experienced steps up on this. Regards, Martijn From stephan.richter@tufts.edu Fri Jul 4 16:05:59 2003 From: stephan.richter@tufts.edu (Stephan Richter) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 11:05:59 -0400 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030704121715.GC14604@vet.uu.nl> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <00c101c3420c$07437cd0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030704121715.GC14604@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <200307041105.59821.stephan.richter@tufts.edu> On Friday 04 July 2003 08:17, Martijn Faassen wrote: > > For the other points, I think the mail of Denis gives a good point of > > our view on it. For now I don't want to react on it. It all is too early > > for me. > > Yes, it is all too soon for me too. I rather exploded last night when > I saw this had happened. I am now left to argue with people who I like > and did hard work with, but I feel it as my responsibility to actually > object. :( Yes, it is good to do that. :-) I guess we both learned from the EuroZopeCon disaster. ;-) Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training From stephan.richter@tufts.edu Fri Jul 4 16:34:31 2003 From: stephan.richter@tufts.edu (Stephan Richter) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 11:34:31 -0400 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030704141119.01eeffd0@www.thinkware.se> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030704113718.01fc4018@www.thinkware.se> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704141119.01eeffd0@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <200307041134.31826.stephan.richter@tufts.edu> On Friday 04 July 2003 09:12, Magnus Lyck=E5 wrote: > I think the solution to that would be some kind of legal body > that stands behind Europython. I don't think this is quite the > right time to decide about that though. I am glad you brought this up. When EuroZope grew, I really believed that=20 creating a legal body would be helpful, since companies could easily deduct= =20 donations from their income, we could officially get government (country an= d=20 EU based) support and so on...=20 So we created the e.V.=20 Today I think it was probably one of my biggest mistakes I inserted into a= =20 community ever. The legal body destroyed the community, because the= =20 community felt that the "official officers" had to do now all the managemen= t.=20 This really hurts in an anarchistical system. (I don't feel like elaboratin= g=20 on this.) On the other hand the German Zope User Group (DZUG) did a bit=20 better; but this is because there are a couple of people that do most of th= e=20 organizational tasks, so it is less community driven. So my suggestion: Just leave the organization up to a loosely held communit= y.=20 It is more fun this way. A discussion with strong feelings being expressed = is=20 just part of the game. Regards, Stephan =2D-=20 Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training From Tom Deprez" <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <200307041203.h64C3qOs021784@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <001601c3422c$2ad8c770$6500a8c0@WALTER> <20030704135521.GB15090@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <01fa01c34247$ffc15f40$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> Just to inform: > I agree. I think the most constructive thing that can be done now is > to spend some time getting a clear organization in place. Planning for > EP 2004 is important and it's great it's happening now, but it's not > desparately urgent at this stage either and some details can wait > until the organization is more or less in place. Mmm, it is urgent, since otherwise we end up in the same situation like last year and that's something I don't want to have anymore. But correct, it can wait a month or so. > I'm willing to commit some of my time in helping to found such an > organization. If not everybody hates my guts now. :) As a matter of fact, Denis is already putting resources and money in this since before EPC2003. He has contacted lawyers (who have experience in the open-source world) for advice. As a matter of fact a lawyer already responded, but due to the conference busyness it wasn't possible to work further on it. More info on this when he has enough information on this to share to the world and to inform volunteers and ask for advice to the community... Should he informed you earlier about this? I don't think so, since first someone has to gather all the right information. On the other hand I think he informed several people about this informally (when the topic of the discussion went in that direction). PS. It's nice to hear some old voices again which were very silent the last months/year Sigh... community efforts are hard :-) Regards, Tom. From faassen@vet.uu.nl Fri Jul 4 17:23:31 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 18:23:31 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <01fa01c34247$ffc15f40$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <200307041203.h64C3qOs021784@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <001601c3422c$2ad8c770$6500a8c0@WALTER> <20030704135521.GB15090@vet.uu.nl> <01fa01c34247$ffc15f40$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> Message-ID: <20030704162331.GA16442@vet.uu.nl> Tom Deprez wrote: [we agree that good planning is urgent, but desperately urgent] > > I'm willing to commit some of my time in helping to found such an > > organization. If not everybody hates my guts now. :) > [Denis gathering information about conference organization] I think I do recall previous talk about this. It's good news and looking forward to more information. Regards, Martijn From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Fri Jul 4 19:50:15 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 20:50:15 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030703223743.GB12723@vet.uu.nl> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703220450.GC15649@logilab.fr> <20030703223743.GB12723@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <20030704185015.GC23684@logilab.fr> On Fri, Jul 04, 2003 at 12:37:43AM +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: > > I have no problem with them having the final word on the "we keep or we let go" > > topic. > > I do. I understand that you learning it from the website was felt as a bad surprise. I have being trying to get Strakt folks and Denis and Andy Robinson to discuss this for the whole conference, which is why I was already aware that it may end up in Charleroi again. I agree that opening the discussion would have helped. > > will also give us another > > year to get a more formal organization in place, > > Why can't we get a more formal organization in place > now? Do you think you will have the time to organize this in 2004 but > not this year? Who will be doing this? I think this conference is in bad > need for a more formal organization *right now* actually, as this kind of > unilateral decision making sucks. Fine. Let's do it... > > I know that the PSU would > > destroy such a mafia in no time, but since the PSU does not exist. > > I don't care about bringing humor into this matter right now, sorry. Maybe > later. :-P > I think we shouldn't wait until next year. A more transparent decision > making process is extremely obviously needed *right now*. I've always been in favour of transparent decision making processes. Could you suggest one or comment on the one I suggested? -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Fri Jul 4 19:53:16 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 20:53:16 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <200307040847.h648lGOs021141@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703220450.GC15649@logilab.fr> <200307040847.h648lGOs021141@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <20030704185316.GD23684@logilab.fr> On Fri, Jul 04, 2003 at 10:47:16AM +0200, Laura Creighton wrote: > In a message of Fri, 04 Jul 2003 00:04:50 +0200, "Nicolas Chauvat" writes: > >On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 11:36:38PM +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: > > > >An idea could be that after next year, the people willing to host the > >conference will candidate as a board. Then every person that attended > >europython before will get one vote. The board that is elected gets to > >take care of the association and host the conference the following year. > > > >Just an idea... > > > >-- > >Nicolas Chauvat > > The problem with holding a vote _at the conference_ is that it > excludes those who disliked the current venue (or the current time) > enough to not bother attending, and it selects for those who are > only interested _if they can sleep in their own beds at night_ whose > beds happen to be close by. All this favours the encumbant, and may > be significant. That's a drawback. Would "people that attended one of the conferences that took place in the last three years" be better? I think we need to have the voice of actual participants weight more than the one of "I'd come if..." participants that will be hundreds on usenet. -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Fri Jul 4 20:03:49 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 21:03:49 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <000b01c3422a$6137c390$6500a8c0@WALTER> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704002956.01f85300@www.thinkware.se> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704113718.01fc4018@www.thinkware.se> <3F056B9C.6060703@lemburg.com> <000b01c3422a$6137c390$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <20030704190348.GF23684@logilab.fr> On Fri, Jul 04, 2003 at 02:47:08PM +0200, Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote: > From: "M.-A. Lemburg" > > > > >Magnus Lyckå wrote: > >> At 11:09 2003-07-04 +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: > >> > >>> Do people really think we earn money on organising it? > >> > >> No, and I don't think it's really reasonable. I hope that > >> it has given you experience and contacts that will be > >> useful for you in the future though. > >> > >> I was trying to understand what Marc-Andre meant. > > > >I meant that Tom and Denis should add proper compensation for > >their invested time to the conference budget, just like a > >professional organizer would. > > > > >You as consultant should know that good work needs good pay and > >I can't really understand your position in suggesting that Tom > >and Denis should continue to do their job for free. > > > > If organising the EuroPython Conferences deteriorates into a way for those > involved to make a buck, I am not interested in participating. > > I don't give a 2 öre about statements like "good work needs good pay". Maybe > I am a special case (not likely) but to me good work is good work regardless > of whether it pays off or not, and bad work is to be avoided. > > Now, if this is about compensating some individuals for the extraordinarly > hard/good work they have done and the time they have devoted **because they > suffered a loss that was not expected**, ie. consulting work that was > delayed, forced unpayed vacation from normal day work because of the amount > of conference work involved, etc., then that is perfectly allright by me. I agree. If we get to compensate the organizers for part of their loss, I wish it to be like "my company spends X EUR for me working one day, I spent Y days working on the conference, my company could get reimbursed for X*Z EUR (Z<=Y)". But transforming the organizers into professionals is in my opinion a very bad idea, for many rather obvious reasons (we're doing software, not events, who will decide how much is payed to the organizers, etc.) -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Fri Jul 4 20:06:43 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 21:06:43 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030704141119.01eeffd0@www.thinkware.se> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030704113718.01fc4018@www.thinkware.se> <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704002956.01f85300@www.thinkware.se> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704113718.01fc4018@www.thinkware.se> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704141119.01eeffd0@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <20030704190643.GG23684@logilab.fr> On Fri, Jul 04, 2003 at 03:12:43PM +0200, Magnus Lyckå wrote: > ... A lot of things one can only agree with. > I think the solution to that would be some kind of legal body > that stands behind Europython. I don't think this is quite the > right time to decide about that though. The time is as good as any. -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From faassen@vet.uu.nl Fri Jul 4 20:28:25 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 21:28:25 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030704185316.GD23684@logilab.fr> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703220450.GC15649@logilab.fr> <200307040847.h648lGOs021141@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <20030704185316.GD23684@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <20030704192825.GA17145@vet.uu.nl> Nicolas Chauvat wrote: > That's a drawback. Would "people that attended one of the conferences > that took place in the last three years" be better? Perhaps you can pay membership fees to some organization and gain voting rights that way. Membership fees to give the organization some steady cash flow and to at least present a minimal barrier so that only those truly interested in this will be able to vote. > I think we need to have the voice of actual participants weight more than > the one of "I'd come if..." participants that will be hundreds on usenet. Agreed; a membership construction can accomplish this. Regards, Martijn From magnus@thinkware.se Fri Jul 4 22:07:36 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 23:07:36 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <01fa01c34247$ffc15f40$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <200307041203.h64C3qOs021784@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <001601c3422c$2ad8c770$6500a8c0@WALTER> <20030704135521.GB15090@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030704214548.01f959c8@www.thinkware.se> At 18:18 2003-07-04 +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: >As a matter of fact, Denis is already putting resources and money in >this since before EPC2003. He has contacted lawyers (who have experience >in the open-source world) for advice. As a matter of fact a lawyer >already responded, but due to the conference busyness it wasn't possible >to work further on it. Is the intent to make this a commercial company or a non-profit organization? (In Sweden I think it's unheard of that a lawyer is involved to form a small non-profit organization, so this sounds a bit odd to me, but maybe that's just Sweden being unusually uncomplicated in this regard--or the Swedish people being unusually used to organizing themselves in clubs and associations.) To me it would be very odd to make a commercial company that relies on lots of work by unpaid people. I would like to know where Europython is heading, or rather, where Denis wants it to head now. As I see it, we can have a community conference, much like today, where people work unpaid, or on salary by their normal employer if the employer decides to sponsor the event in that way. Fees basically cover conference rooms, catering and other direct expenses, but not any salaries to the involved people from the Python community. The other option would be an entirely commercial event, where the fees should cover all the work done by the arrangers. That will probably raise the conference fee to around 500 euros per day, at least that's a fairly typical fee here. You all know these types of things I guess. I think the event would need to be bigger than today though, and I honestly don't think that will happen if fees jump up like that. I've been attending many big community based events, some that were in the same location every year, and others that rotated all over Sweden. In all successful cases, there have been some continuity, with at least partly the same people being involved over the years. In the case of rotating events, there have been some central staff that has assisted the local arrangers, and probably some local members that have done it before (15 years earlier or so...) I imagine it might be trickier to rotate it between countries, and since we don't have any "staff", the local arrangers would be more left on their own. If the hosts of the event have prior experience from arranging similar events, this might not be a problem, but I'm not sure how often we will be able to find such people. It is very fortunate that both Dario and several Strakt people have prior (and as I understand completely independent) experience of arranging these kinds of events at Chalmers University of Technology. I don't know how likely it is that we will be able to find such people in a new spot every year or every other year. Obviously, an event like Europython consists of several parts. It should hopefully not be so difficult to get some continuity in things like taking care of a web site, or chairing a track. I assume the tricky part will be the local arrangements, with conference rooms, catering etc etc, since this will have to involve a whole new set of people when the event moves to a new location. (I don't think ther will ever be Europython nomads. ;) I suppose some parts, such as marketing and sponsoring have both local and "global" aspects. Hm... I think I've left the subject I started with and ventured into something else. Again! Oh well, I'll stop here. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From Tom Deprez" <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <200307041203.h64C3qOs021784@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <001601c3422c$2ad8c770$6500a8c0@WALTER> <20030704135521.GB15090@vet.uu.nl> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704214548.01f959c8@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <004401c342e0$9c827a10$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> Who said it would become a commercial company? I don't know where you all are heading in this discussion. I thought this discussion was going on about the place where EPC2004 would go on. I, nor Denis have reacted much in this flame war, although our names were frequently used. So I don't know where these other ideas come from... Let me tell you this: we are not in the money for it. Gosh, how many times do we have to tell you this. No, EPC will be a non-profit organisation. And I'm sure Denis will inform everybody about it and ask for help before it will be set up. It doesn't mean that your an eg open-source company that you don't have to look out for laws and that's the time you ask advice at a person who has experience in it. In my idea a lawyer with open-source knowledge (over whole Europe) is a good idea. And no it is not the idea to make a commercial conference. And no we don't earn money from it. Please stop making assumptions. If you do, don't mention somebodies name in it until you're sure about it. This can only result in more misunderstandings and make good dicussions in the next weeks even more difficult. Tom. Lyckå wrote: > At 18:18 2003-07-04 +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: >> As a matter of fact, Denis is already putting resources and money in >> this since before EPC2003. He has contacted lawyers (who have >> experience in the open-source world) for advice. As a matter of fact >> a lawyer already responded, but due to the conference busyness it >> wasn't possible to work further on it. > > Is the intent to make this a commercial company or a > non-profit organization? (In Sweden I think it's unheard > of that a lawyer is involved to form a small non-profit > organization, so this sounds a bit odd to me, but maybe > that's just Sweden being unusually uncomplicated in this > regard--or the Swedish people being unusually used to > organizing themselves in clubs and associations.) > > To me it would be very odd to make a commercial company > that relies on lots of work by unpaid people. > > I would like to know where Europython is heading, or rather, > where Denis wants it to head now. > > As I see it, we can have a community conference, much like today, > where people work unpaid, or on salary by their normal employer > if the employer decides to sponsor the event in that way. > > Fees basically cover conference rooms, catering and other > direct expenses, but not any salaries to the involved people > from the Python community. > > The other option would be an entirely commercial event, where > the fees should cover all the work done by the arrangers. That > will probably raise the conference fee to around 500 euros per > day, at least that's a fairly typical fee here. You all know > these types of things I guess. I think the event would need to > be bigger than today though, and I honestly don't think that > will happen if fees jump up like that. > > I've been attending many big community based events, some that > were in the same location every year, and others that rotated > all over Sweden. In all successful cases, there have been some > continuity, with at least partly the same people being involved > over the years. In the case of rotating events, there have been > some central staff that has assisted the local arrangers, and > probably some local members that have done it before (15 years > earlier or so...) > > I imagine it might be trickier to rotate it between countries, > and since we don't have any "staff", the local arrangers would > be more left on their own. If the hosts of the event have > prior experience from arranging similar events, this might not > be a problem, but I'm not sure how often we will be able to > find such people. It is very fortunate that both Dario and > several Strakt people have prior (and as I understand completely > independent) experience of arranging these kinds of events at > Chalmers University of Technology. > > I don't know how likely it is that we will be able to find such > people in a new spot every year or every other year. Obviously, > an event like Europython consists of several parts. It should > hopefully not be so difficult to get some continuity in things > like taking care of a web site, or chairing a track. I assume > the tricky part will be the local arrangements, with conference > rooms, catering etc etc, since this will have to involve a whole > new set of people when the event moves to a new location. (I > don't think ther will ever be Europython nomads. ;) I suppose > some parts, such as marketing and sponsoring have both local and > "global" aspects. > > Hm... I think I've left the subject I started with and ventured > into something else. Again! Oh well, I'll stop here. From magnus@thinkware.se Sat Jul 5 12:42:31 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 13:42:31 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <004401c342e0$9c827a10$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <200307041203.h64C3qOs021784@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <001601c3422c$2ad8c770$6500a8c0@WALTER> <20030704135521.GB15090@vet.uu.nl> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704214548.01f959c8@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030705131101.01f062b8@www.thinkware.se> At 12:31 2003-07-05 +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: >Who said it would become a commercial company? If you read what I wrote, you can see that I asked an open question. The only person I've seen suggest commercialization of this is Marc- Andre Lemburg. I've been involved in many non-profit organizations in Sweden, and lawyers where never involved. That's why I asked. I'm happy with your answer so far. >I, nor Denis have reacted much in this flame war, although our names >were frequently used. I'm not emotional about this. I want concrete and practical answers. Is there anything aggresive in the mail I wrote that you responded to now? If you think so, I'm really sorry, that was certainly not my intention. >Let me tell you this: we are not in the money for it. Gosh, how many >times do we have to tell you this. No, EPC will be a non-profit >organisation. And I'm sure Denis will inform everybody about it and ask >for help before it will be set up. Great! I assume he won't set it up at all unless there is some general understanding that this is the right way to go. It seems that we all agree that EPC won't stay in Charleroi and in the hands of Aragne for ever. I'm not at all sure that who will take over this arrangement later will want to carry the burden of a legal body that might not be needed. I think it's important that we use the experience from all the people in this mailing list, who have been involved in things like EuroZope or other similar arrangements. It's not until you have tried working in a certain way that you can know that it really works. I understand that you have seen problems in arranging EPC without a logal entity behind it, but it's not until you've tried to do it *with* a legal body behind it that you can know if the new problems that leads to weigh less that the problems it might possibly solve. >It doesn't mean that your an eg open-source company that you don't have >to look out for laws and that's the time you ask advice at a person who >has experience in it. In my idea a lawyer with open-source knowledge >(over whole Europe) is a good idea. It's always good to get consultation from other people. At least in Sweden, lawyers are very expensive though... >And no it is not the idea to make a commercial conference. And no we >don't earn money from it. It seems everybody except Marc-Andre agree then. >Please stop making assumptions. There will be much less guessing and assumptions if the discussion and planning is more open. If you and Denis start to plan big changes for Europython without discussing it with the other people on the mailing list, you can bet that there will be rumours, guessing and people sending private emails in little fractions etc. Please be as open as possible with your plans and ideas. Talk to the rest of us before you head along in some new direction. I'm sure that's the best way to avoid these communication problems. >If you do, don't mention somebodies name >in it until you're sure about it. This can only result in more >misunderstandings and make good dicussions in the next weeks even more >difficult. I think only Denis and you can dispell these misunderstandings. I'm happy you started, and I hope you will continue to share your ideas openly. I can understand that this can be problematic as well. People have all sorts of wild ideas, and some will offer to do this and that, and then just disappear. But I still think it's better to have an open discussion about this, even if it heats up sometimes. I'm frankly very happy about the progress and clarifications we have gotten these last days, and I hope we can make this work in a constructive way. I'm sorry if I've hurt someone, I could probably be more diplomatic at times, but I assure you that I just want what is best for EPC. > Lyck=E5 wrote: > > At 18:18 2003-07-04 +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: > >> As a matter of fact, Denis is already putting resources and money in > >> this since before EPC2003. He has contacted lawyers (who have > >> experience in the open-source world) for advice. As a matter of fact > >> a lawyer already responded, but due to the conference busyness it > >> wasn't possible to work further on it. > > > > Is the intent to make this a commercial company or a > > non-profit organization? (In Sweden I think it's unheard > > of that a lawyer is involved to form a small non-profit > > organization, so this sounds a bit odd to me, but maybe > > that's just Sweden being unusually uncomplicated in this > > regard--or the Swedish people being unusually used to > > organizing themselves in clubs and associations.) > > > > To me it would be very odd to make a commercial company > > that relies on lots of work by unpaid people. > > > > I would like to know where Europython is heading, or rather, > > where Denis wants it to head now. > > > > As I see it, we can have a community conference, much like today, > > where people work unpaid, or on salary by their normal employer > > if the employer decides to sponsor the event in that way. > > > > Fees basically cover conference rooms, catering and other > > direct expenses, but not any salaries to the involved people > > from the Python community. > > > > The other option would be an entirely commercial event, where > > the fees should cover all the work done by the arrangers. That > > will probably raise the conference fee to around 500 euros per > > day, at least that's a fairly typical fee here. You all know > > these types of things I guess. I think the event would need to > > be bigger than today though, and I honestly don't think that > > will happen if fees jump up like that. > > > > I've been attending many big community based events, some that > > were in the same location every year, and others that rotated > > all over Sweden. In all successful cases, there have been some > > continuity, with at least partly the same people being involved > > over the years. In the case of rotating events, there have been > > some central staff that has assisted the local arrangers, and > > probably some local members that have done it before (15 years > > earlier or so...) > > > > I imagine it might be trickier to rotate it between countries, > > and since we don't have any "staff", the local arrangers would > > be more left on their own. If the hosts of the event have > > prior experience from arranging similar events, this might not > > be a problem, but I'm not sure how often we will be able to > > find such people. It is very fortunate that both Dario and > > several Strakt people have prior (and as I understand completely > > independent) experience of arranging these kinds of events at > > Chalmers University of Technology. > > > > I don't know how likely it is that we will be able to find such > > people in a new spot every year or every other year. Obviously, > > an event like Europython consists of several parts. It should > > hopefully not be so difficult to get some continuity in things > > like taking care of a web site, or chairing a track. I assume > > the tricky part will be the local arrangements, with conference > > rooms, catering etc etc, since this will have to involve a whole > > new set of people when the event moves to a new location. (I > > don't think ther will ever be Europython nomads. ;) I suppose > > some parts, such as marketing and sponsoring have both local and > > "global" aspects. > > > > Hm... I think I've left the subject I started with and ventured > > into something else. Again! Oh well, I'll stop here. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language=20 From andy@reportlab.com Sat Jul 5 14:43:55 2003 From: andy@reportlab.com (Andy Robinson) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 13:43:55 -0000 (GMT) Subject: [EuroPython] How to decide locations in future In-Reply-To: <20030704115816.GB14604@vet.uu.nl> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <20030704115816.GB14604@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <2204.12.103.69.101.1057412635.squirrel@webmail.pair.com> Martijn Faassen said: > M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > Not if this is the way the organization makes decisions. The > organization is in trouble if this turns into a common pattern. > I just tuned in after 2 days of transatlantic travel and am very sorry to see this has got so messy. But it's easy to see why with hindsight, and I am sure there is a nice way out of it. Nobody set out the decision making process for where to hold next year's because, as we all know, nobody is in charge of the EuroPython "organisation". There was plenty of dscussion on locations in the corridors and at least one attempt at a public decision, which is as good as it can get in this situation. So let's put all the blame on "nobody" and concentrate on refining our procedure for next time. The most helpful thing in promoting an event is a clear decision on dates and location. The best way to achieve this is to do it at each conference. So I suggest that in future, anyone wanting to "bid" starts doing so on the list about 15 months before, and all candidates present their case in a session before the keynote. Then we have a show of hands. Others could vote by proxy on the list with a deadline of lunchtime that day so there is time to count. Whoever winds has a whole year to plan and their advance publicity is already done. A common topic in the corridors was 'where is next year'. Tim asked for a public show of hands (I think, I missed it). Francis made a very strong and reasoned case for keeping it where it is. Lots of people enjoy it in Belgium and there is a precedent for having European institutions there. I also believe Denis and friends deserve one more try, in which their own business can get some payback (in terms of recognition as the primary Python firm within Belgium, better-shared workload and maybe add-ons like an industry day or tutorials to make them some money), and in which we can all have a really smooth, optimal event with all the bugs worked out. Going forward, I believe that contenders should launch their bids about 13 months out (plenty of time to discuss on the lists and get facts and pictures on a web site), make a presentation for their own location before the keynote, and decide it with a clear show of hands. The only alternative I see is to try and appoint some NEUTRAL committee who have no plans to host an event (I'll happily be on that) and let contenders fly us out, wine us and dine us and bribe us like the Olympic Committee..... Also, since we are aiming for May 2003, what's wrong with having one in Goteburg (*sorry about accents, on American internet PC) in say November or December this year? A smaller event six months out of phase is the perfect way to make your case for a big one, and who knows, maybe it would be just as big and we could have two? I could definitely handle two such events per year and see it as very good for the Python economy. I will finish by saying that I felt something very exciting this year: there is a real Python 'economy' in Europe, with real firms and customers making connections at EuroPython. First time for me was fun but not commercially justifiable; from now on I regard it as commercially essential. I would welcome anything up to 4 python events each year, in a range of sizes, and as you know am trying to arrange one. Let's have a whole series in all locations and sizes... Best Regards, Andy Robinson From ghum@gmx.net Sat Jul 5 16:11:15 2003 From: ghum@gmx.net (Harald Armin Massa) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 17:11:15 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] How to decide locations in future References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <20030704115816.GB14604@vet.uu.nl> <2204.12.103.69.101.1057412635.squirrel@webmail.pair.com> Message-ID: <000801c34307$aeb47540$642aa8c0@tog2> I am +1 for Andys suggestion, I think we should vote on Andys suggestion now. Harald From magnus@thinkware.se Sat Jul 5 17:00:37 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 18:00:37 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Future EPC evaluation form Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030705174318.02030350@www.thinkware.se> I just though about something else (for a change ;). I thought I'd post it now (despite the current chaos) since I'll forget if I don't. (I probably will anyway, but we'll see...) In the future, it might be good to have some kind of evaluation questionaire, to get a better picture of what we need to improve for the next conference. (There are always things to improve...) I think this should be a paper that should be handed out to the visitors, and requested back in the end of the conference. There could also be a web form for those who forgot to hand in their paper. Skipping the paper and just using a web form would mean less manual work I guess, but I suspect it would lead to much fewer answers. It's also good if people can make comments freely. It would probably be a good thing if the form looked the same from year to year, both to get some kind of continuity, to be able to see how the current evaluation differs from the "usual", and to avoid inventing the wheel over and over. Talking about not inventing wheels: Does anyone have some suitable conference evaluation for that we can steal? -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de Sat Jul 5 17:55:30 2003 From: gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 18:55:30 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] The future is now (Was: Future EPC evaluation form) In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030705174318.02030350@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <7C85E6A2-AF09-11D7-8094-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> Magnus Lyck=E5: > Talking about not inventing wheels: Does anyone have > some suitable conference evaluation for that we can > steal? I want to be be brief, hence: http://www.google.com/search?&q=3D%22conference+evaluation+form%22 Perhaps also of relevance: http://www.ecoop.org/Handbook/HowTo.pdf And then, the future is now, so why not make a form for EPC2003, as long as the memory of people who attended is still fresh enough? (An excellent opportunity for people who might want to contribute to EPC2003 after the event, maybe. And to any potential takers: be aware that clear, neutral and useful forms are as much of a science or art as you want them to be!) Dinu PS: Note that I won't continue this thread within the next 24 hrs... -- Dinu C. Gherman ...................................................................... "Genius is born, not paid." (Oscar Wilde) From faassen@vet.uu.nl Sat Jul 5 18:19:50 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 19:19:50 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] How to decide locations in future In-Reply-To: <000801c34307$aeb47540$642aa8c0@tog2> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <20030704115816.GB14604@vet.uu.nl> <2204.12.103.69.101.1057412635.squirrel@webmail.pair.com> <000801c34307$aeb47540$642aa8c0@tog2> Message-ID: <20030705171950.GA19621@vet.uu.nl> Harald Armin Massa wrote: > I am +1 for Andys suggestion, > > I think we should vote on Andys suggestion now. I saw Andy make a whole range of suggestions concerning both next year's location and location decisions in general. What suggestion are you referring to? It would be a bad idea to vote now in my opinion. I suggest we give this whole debate about both decision making and the location choice itself a few weeks time. Let's set a deadline for the various decision, in particular location choice. Let's make a few announcements so that those who are interested can join in; many are still recovering from this conference and not ready for this yet (I certainly wasn't!). If you force a vote (on a whole long email message no less) now this will devolve into another flamewar; everybody will feel forced to put in their points as quickly as possible and that's wrong and will only lead to more ill feeling. Thanks, Martijn From magnus@thinkware.se Sat Jul 5 19:15:49 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 20:15:49 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Two EPC in 2004? :) In-Reply-To: <2204.12.103.69.101.1057412635.squirrel@webmail.pair.com> References: <20030704115816.GB14604@vet.uu.nl> <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <20030704115816.GB14604@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030705193703.02006dd0@www.thinkware.se> At 13:43 2003-07-05 +0000, Andy Robinson wrote: >Also, since we are aiming for May 2003, what's wrong with having one in >Goteburg (*sorry about accents, on American internet PC) in say November >or December this year? A smaller event six months out of phase is the >perfect way to make your case for a big one, and who knows, maybe it would >be just as big and we could have two? I could definitely handle two such >events per year and see it as very good for the Python economy. I guess the people in G=F6teborg should talk for themselves, but I understand that their current plans assume that it's summer vacations at Chalmers University of Technology, and for cheap lodging that the student hostels are also (partly) empty. Besides, I'd much rather have people visit the wonderful summer G=F6teborg, than the boring, gray and rainy November G=F6teborg. Don't expect umbrellas to help there. The rain is almost horizontal. In November I think we should have an event much further south... I'm not convinced that there is room for two Python conferences in Europe as Andy suggests, but if I'm wrong, I think we'd need to place them closer in time (unless Charleroi would like to make an arrangement in November or December. I guess Chimay tastes as good all seasons! :) Maybe it could be possible to have something like G=F6teborg in June and Charleroi in September, or Charleroi in May and G=F6teborg in August? I guess the Charleroi arrangement is not bound to a particular season? But I'm not sure this is too much. I don't think I would go to both if they were that close. It depends on my clients etc, and I don't have a clear enough crystal ball, but I would probably skip one. I assume that the same is true for many others, both speakers, track chairs and visitors. On the other hand, I'm sure there are people in and around Belgium that won't travel all the way to G=F6teborg in any case and vice versa. Perhaps it's better with two arrangements with 150-200 people each, than one that has 250-300 people? What do the people who have been more involved think? Is it viable to run two Python conferences in Europe only three months apart? What proportion of people who spoke or helped as track chairs etc could work with both? Or would it be ok to run Charleroi much further away from the summer? Maybe as early as March or as late at November? Then there could be a five month gap, and I think that would be much better than three months between. March might be close though...and personally I'd be very happy to get away from the boring climate in northern Sweden in November for some great company, interesting talks and lots of Chimay. Actually, the more I think about it, the better it sounds! :) -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language=20 From lac@strakt.com Sun Jul 6 08:49:12 2003 From: lac@strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 09:49:12 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] How to decide locations in future In-Reply-To: Message from "Harald Armin Massa" of "Sat, 05 Jul 2003 17:11:15 +0200." <000801c34307$aeb47540$642aa8c0@tog2> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <20030704115816.GB14604@vet.uu.nl> <2204.12.103.69.101.1057412635.squirrel@webmail.pair.com> <000801c34307$aeb47540$642aa8c0@tog2> Message-ID: <200307060749.h667nCfa008412@theraft.strakt.com> In a message of Sat, 05 Jul 2003 17:11:15 +0200, "Harald Armin Massa" writes: >I am +1 for Andys suggestion, > >I think we should vote on Andys suggestion now. > >Harald > >_______________________________________________ >EuroPython mailing list >EuroPython@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython I don't think that anybody in Gothenburg is interested in putting on a small local convention in Novemeber. Not only will the university need the venue at this time, but there is not enough time to produce a high-quality conference. Laura From lac@strakt.com Sun Jul 6 09:39:08 2003 From: lac@strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 10:39:08 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Future EPC evaluation form In-Reply-To: Message from Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?= of "Sat, 05 Jul 2003 18:00:37 +0200." <5.2.1.1.0.20030705174318.02030350@www.thinkware.se> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030705174318.02030350@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <200307060839.h668d8fa009598@theraft.strakt.com> The problem with the idea of 'the same sort of form every year' is that it presumes the same sort of conference every year (and that you got the correct questions down at the first conference). The problem is that rather than trying to find 'a place where we can have a conference like we had last year' we might be better off trying experiments to find better forms of EuroPython to suit our community. For instance, I think that the papers were, on the whole, not very good. I think that they were better in the Science track. This may be because Scientists are more prepeared for this sort of thing, and we would improve by training our speakers more. But I think that the problem is more fundamental. The model for what we are doing is a 'Scientific conference'. This is the model most technical gatherings have used. But what most of us are doing is not very scientific. The Hackers conferences (at least when I was involved in running them, many years ago) took a different approach. We decided we had only a tiny appetite for people standing up in front of us talking to us. So such things had to be arranged only at the site, as people signed up for rooms where they intended to speak. Even when this happened, things were more like an open discussion and there was less of a speaker/audience split. Instead, we brought one heck of a lot of power, and let everybody come with truck and bus loads of gear, and, 24 hours a day, all conference long, there were solid demonstrations of 'look at the cool stuff I did' ... 'here! look! you can play with it too'. But we rented a summer camp off season and stayed there, making all our meals on site, which made 'sleep when you like, hack when you like' practical. Other conferences I have organised to publicise Open Source (and our independent consulting companies) were different again. We invited a host of people from industry and government to listen to our craftily (and group prepared) series of lectures on 'what is Open Source'. But from my point of view, the exciting thing was that first thing, first day, from the floor, we took real computer problems which people at the conference would like solved. Thus, while some of us were busy teaching/indoctrinating the suits, the rest of us were coding like crazy, trying to produce miracles in 2 days. I think that if you produce a standard form, you will structure all future conferences to try to 'beat the form'. This often tends to limit creativity. People try to incrementally improve on what they had before when it would be more fun to run a different sort of conference altogether. Laura From magnus@thinkware.se Sun Jul 6 12:03:01 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 13:03:01 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Future EPC evaluation form In-Reply-To: <200307060839.h668d8fa009598@theraft.strakt.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030705174318.02030350@www.thinkware.se> <5.2.1.1.0.20030705174318.02030350@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030706111235.0202fe78@www.thinkware.se> At 10:39 2003-07-06 +0200, Laura Creighton wrote: >I think that if you produce a standard form, you will structure all >future conferences to try to 'beat the form'. This often tends to >limit creativity. People try to incrementally improve on what they >had before when it would be more fun to run a different sort of >conference altogether. I doubt the arrangers would take the evaluation form *that* seriously, but I guess you have a point. If we always use the same form, the arrangers might not be able to measure if *their* idea about a good conference worked as intended. There are some aspects of a conference like EPC that are relevant every year. Perhaps the form should have some general questions that stay more or less the same from year to year, and another part, determined by the current organizers to verify if it seems to have fulfilled the goals *they* set up for the conference. The interest in this evaluation will vary between organizers, but I think it would be useful to always get *some* questions asked. I think questions like: "Was it easy to find information about the conference?", "Why did you come?" or "Do you plan to come to EPC next year as well?" could appear every year without spoiling the creativity for the arrangers. Some things are always important, and some questions might help us remember these things. The general part of the conference will also change a bit over time, but I think it's good to have some continuity there. An evaluation form could have a similar role to unit tests in XP. A tool that helps you understand what it is you want to achieve before you do it, and a way to see if you did afterwards... In contrast to unit tests, we can't expect 100% OK results, but I think it's useful to learn what was considered strong and weak points. I hope people are creative and clever enough to figure out when to just make incremental improvements, and when to make more drastic changes. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From stephan.richter@tufts.edu Sun Jul 6 13:50:59 2003 From: stephan.richter@tufts.edu (Stephan Richter) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 08:50:59 -0400 Subject: [EuroPython] Future EPC evaluation form In-Reply-To: <200307060839.h668d8fa009598@theraft.strakt.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030705174318.02030350@www.thinkware.se> <200307060839.h668d8fa009598@theraft.strakt.com> Message-ID: <200307060850.59437.stephan.richter@tufts.edu> On Sunday 06 July 2003 04:39, Laura Creighton wrote: > Instead, we brought one heck of a lot of power, and let everybody come > with truck and bus loads of gear, and, 24 hours a day, all conference > long, there were solid demonstrations of 'look at the cool stuff I > did' ... =A0'here! look! you can play with it too'. =A0But we rented a > summer camp off season and stayed there, making all our meals on site, > which made 'sleep when you like, hack when you like' practical. Jim mentioned to me the desire to have a Hackers-like conference for Zope m= any=20 times and I think it would be really cool. I think the Rotterdam Sprintatho= n =20 was probably the closest to that the Python/Zope community has done. I thin= k=20 it is worth a try to run a conference like that. I for one never go for the= =20 talks anyways, since I know most of the technology I am interested in=20 anyways. I only go to conferences to meet people and update myself about so= me=20 new developments. So for me a coding conference would be a million times mo= re=20 interesting and worth my money! I realize that we also have business people= =20 at the conference, but as you said, we could prepare talks for them - but t= he=20 true advantage is that they can see the productivity of our technologies. A= ll=20 good in my opinion. BTW, I like your second suggestion as well. Regards, Stephan =2D-=20 Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training From stephan.richter@tufts.edu Sun Jul 6 14:02:51 2003 From: stephan.richter@tufts.edu (Stephan Richter) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 09:02:51 -0400 Subject: [EuroPython] Future EPC evaluation form In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030706111235.0202fe78@www.thinkware.se> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030705174318.02030350@www.thinkware.se> <5.2.1.1.0.20030706111235.0202fe78@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <200307060902.51989.stephan.richter@tufts.edu> On Sunday 06 July 2003 07:03, Magnus Lyck=E5 wrote: > The general part of the conference will also change a bit over > time, but I think it's good to have some continuity there. I agree, but the cuninuity is that there will be a conference every year. t= he=20 form can change if correctly announce. BTW, I have to add something to my previous mail: If you ask all the people= =20 that attended both the Rotterdam Sprintathon and the EPC 2003 (I think that= =20 probably most people from Rotterdam were at EPC) which "conference" was=20 better I think most would say that from a technical point of view, the=20 Sprintathon was much cooler, but it was of course nice to see the bigger=20 community at EPC. Maybe we really should make this survey. A list of people that attended the= =20 sprintathon are at http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ ComponentArchitecture/InfraeSprintathon Regards, Stephan =2D-=20 Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training From m@moshez.org Sun Jul 6 14:28:05 2003 From: m@moshez.org (Moshe Zadka) Date: 6 Jul 2003 13:28:05 -0000 Subject: [EuroPython] Weekends, Locations and Decisions Message-ID: <20030706132805.12234.qmail@green.zadka.com> I took Dinu's advice, and cooled off during the weekend. The weekend here is now over, so I want to present my perspective. God willing, I would like to be at EPC04, and maybe chair a track [Either the Python Applications track or a short Twisted track]. For that, I will have to be in Europython. I enjoyed myself greatly in EPC03, but that is not a tremendous feat -- I have yet to be in a conference I did not enjoy, and with the amazing people there, it would have been hard to make one I would not enjoy :) That said, many of the things in the immediate vicinity of the conference were truly annoying. The one which stood up the most is language problems. While everybody in the conference spoke perfect [or near perfect] English, that zone ended about ten meters outside the conference center. Everywhere else, it was French only. The waiters and waitresses in Eden, which reportedly was opened just for the conference, did not speak a word of English. The same was true, AIUI, just about everywhere else. Having stayed a day after the conference in Charleroi, and not knowing English, has emotionally scarred me forever. So, if at all possible, I would like EPC04 to be just about anywhere else where I can expect *some* support for English-only speakers. I realize this may seem like a small point to some people, but some of us are really frustrated about this. This ties in to an important point -- Australia. Being far from anyplace else, EPC04 has a chance to become the popular intl. Australian conference, instead of PyCon. Being in a place which does not favour English speakers will probably be a guarantee that this will not happen. The next point I want to make regards the idea of two European conferences. Now, some of you may not know it, but ACCU also hosts a Python UK conference. It was horribly managed this year, but hopefully be somewhat better announced next year. This means there are already two European conferences, and what people are discussing now is actually a *3rd* conference, which will try to vie with EPC for the "official European conference". I can't presume to talk for Guido, but there is a non-trivial chance he'll only be able [for various reasons] to go to one of them. The last thing I want to see is a fight for "which con gets Guido", and I have even less desire to see the other con dying when everyone presents papers at the con Guido will go to. Regarding the poll: yes, the answers were very biased by the questions. There was no way to indicate "I'm not sure, but the chances of going to a conference in Goterburg are higher than one in Charleroi". However, there is a useful way to repeat the poll, if we want to: Tom D. has e-mails of all conference attendees, right? Just send them an e-mail with a unique ID and pointing to a website with a poll. This will insure the results won't be faked by people who would not go to a conference in Europe. Sadly, this will also insure the results won't be faked by people who would not go to a conference in Chareloroi, too :) To sum up: EPC is great, though I preferred it move someplace else. I doubt two EPCs is workable. Polling is more difficult than it seems, the only truly unbiased poll is seeing how many people arrive to a conference. -- Moshe Zadka -- http://moshez.org/ Buffy: I don't like you hanging out with someone that... short. Riley: Yeah, a lot of young people nowadays are experimenting with shortness. Agile Programming Language -- http://www.python.org/ From jacob@strakt.com Sun Jul 6 21:27:52 2003 From: jacob@strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 22:27:52 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Europython 2004 Message-ID: <200307062028.h66KS5fa026791@theraft.strakt.com> I have a few comments on the ongoing debate. I will be as brief as I can. 1. I made an offer of holding Europython 2004 in G=F6teborg together with= Laura=20 Creighton, and with the knowledge that Dar=EDo at Chalmers University of=20 Technology was interested in co-hosting the event. The offer from me personally is only open until 15 August. After that, we= =20 have moved past the date when things need to get started. Naturally, it i= s=20 quite possible to start later, but then you pay a price in the form of mo= re=20 work, lost reserve time and lowered ambitions. I'm not speaking for Laura or Dar=EDo. I'm sure they will state their own= =20 positions. 2. It is quite obvious that Europython lacks the procedures and decision=20 mechanisms necessary for sustaining and developing the event. Whoever makes the decision needs to consider a number of things which I d= on't=20 think have been anywhere near adeqately investigated. * What was the actual outcome of the latest conference. * What options do we have for next year. What are the actual contents and= =20 consequences of the possible alternatives. What are the actual conents of= =20 each proposition. * What are the long term consequences of each choice. 3. If I would engage myself in the creation of the infrastructure that is= =20 needed, this could be construed as lobbying for a specific alternative, s= o I=20 will keep out of the matter. The important thing is that we get a known=20 procedure for making the important decisions and a decision about Europyt= hon=20 2004 according to this procedure. Jacob Hall=E9n From denis@aragne.com Mon Jul 7 13:44:40 2003 From: denis@aragne.com (Denis =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E8re?=) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 14:44:40 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process Message-ID: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> Hi all, I've followed the good advice : close my mailbox for the week-end and come back with calm and serenity after the week-end. First of all, I would like to apologize for not having discussed the point with Martijn before announcing EPC 2004. Indeed, we discussed a lot during the conference, Tim even came with this quite publicly, but as a matter of fact, I didn't ask Martijn's advice. And after the conference, while being still 'warm', encouraged by some (biased) advices, I couldn't refrain my juvenile enthousiasm. :-) Sorry Martijn. Second, I think that everybody will agree now that this fuss comes from one main reason : we don't have defined the way of how decisions are taken. That was the enlightened conclusion of some of you (Martijn, Jacob, Andy, ...) As Tom told you, I've been looking for a way of formalizing 'the EuroPython Team', because I do believe that we cannot take any decision informally after exchanging a few mails on this list, and also because we shouldn't let the whole responsability of such a conference on one single head. Legally, we could set up a quick association, taking any example bylaws. But it won't help much if we don't define our policies in the bylaws. I also wanted the best for EuroPython and hence, I've taken advice from a well known layer in our belgian free software community. He proposes an International Non Profit Association : that's something rather recent here and should be fit for our case. Unfortunately, it will take some time, no so much because of the administrative delay, but because we will have to clearly define what we want to achieve with the association, and how we will manage this. Of course, I wouldn't set up that association without your consentment and participation, Martijn. I'm not eager at formalism (you may have noticed), I also think that imagination comes out from some sort of chaos : formalizing things could freeze some bright ideas and sometimes refrain our enthousiasm. But I see no way out without a superior shared authority. For the rest, I won't write again all the same stuff. Andy's mail expresses well what I would write. (Don't focus on the two possible meetings, that's another story). Here is a copy of the parts I fully support : > Nobody set out the decision making process for where to hold next year's > because, as we all know, nobody is in charge of the EuroPython > "organisation". There was plenty of dscussion on locations in the > corridors and at least one attempt at a public decision, which is as good > as it can get in this situation. So let's put all the blame on "nobody" > and concentrate on refining our procedure for next time. > > The most helpful thing in promoting an event is a clear decision on dates > and location. The best way to achieve this is to do it at each > conference. So I suggest that in future, anyone wanting to "bid" starts > doing so on the list about 15 months before, and all candidates present > their case in a session before the keynote. Then we have a show of hands. > Others could vote by proxy on the list with a deadline of lunchtime that > day so there is time to count. Whoever winds has a whole year to plan and > their advance publicity is already done. > > A common topic in the corridors was 'where is next year'. Tim asked for a > public show of hands (I think, I missed it). Francis made a very strong > and reasoned case for keeping it where it is. Lots of people enjoy it in > Belgium and there is a precedent for having European institutions there. > > [...] > Going forward, I believe that contenders should launch their bids about 13 > months out (plenty of time to discuss on the lists and get facts and > pictures on a web site), make a presentation for their own location before > the keynote, and decide it with a clear show of hands. > > The only alternative I see is to try and appoint some NEUTRAL committee > who have no plans to host an event (I'll happily be on that) and let > contenders fly us out, wine us and dine us and bribe us like the Olympic > Committee..... Regards, Denis -- Denis FRERE P3B : Club Python(-Zope) Belge --------- http://www.p3b.org OS3B : Club Open-Software(-Linux) Carolo http://www.os3b.org Aragne : Python-Zope Solutions & Formations http://www.aragne.com From denis@aragne.com Mon Jul 7 13:48:56 2003 From: denis@aragne.com (Denis =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E8re?=) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 14:48:56 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> Message-ID: <20030707124856.GB1167@carolo.net> Le Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 02:44:40PM +0200, Denis Frère pianota: > > I've taken advice from a well known layer Please, read "lawyer" of course... :-) Denis -- Denis FRERE P3B : Club Python(-Zope) Belge --------- http://www.p3b.org OS3B : Club Open-Software(-Linux) Carolo http://www.os3b.org Aragne : Python-Zope Solutions & Formations http://www.aragne.com From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Mon Jul 7 13:22:54 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 14:22:54 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030704153852.02016e30@www.thinkware.se> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <200307041203.h64C3qOs021784@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704153852.02016e30@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <20030707122253.GC22999@logilab.fr> On Fri, Jul 04, 2003 at 04:07:17PM +0200, Magnus Lyckå wrote: > I had a thought that it might be practical to make EuroPython > into a SIG under the Python Business Foundation. That's a possible option. What do people on this list think about this? AFAIK, EuroPython was organized in 2002 and 2003 by Python Bleu Blanc Belge (P3B) a non-profit organisation created in Charleroi and dedicated to... growing Python in the area. One solution would be to create another distinct entity and transfer everything to it. One solution would be to use the PBF and create a SIG. They are others of course. If we take that route of setting up a PBF SIG to get a formal organisation for EP04, an immeidate benefit would be that we could move to the next topic that is "constitution", or "what kind of rules do we want to apply to our community: how do we chose the location, who is responsible for what, etc." > That requires that the board of the PBF will agree to do that of cource. As a member of the board I would. I want to repeat my question to end this message : What do people on this list think about the "EP04 as a PBF SIG" option ? -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From mwh@python.net Mon Jul 7 14:32:30 2003 From: mwh@python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 14:32:30 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] How to decide locations in future In-Reply-To: <2204.12.103.69.101.1057412635.squirrel@webmail.pair.com> ("Andy Robinson"'s message of "Sat, 5 Jul 2003 13:43:55 -0000 (GMT)") References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <20030704115816.GB14604@vet.uu.nl> <2204.12.103.69.101.1057412635.squirrel@webmail.pair.com> Message-ID: <2madbqo429.fsf@starship.python.net> "Andy Robinson" writes: > Also, since we are aiming for May 2003, what's wrong with having one in > Goteburg (*sorry about accents, on American internet PC) in say November > or December this year? Practicality. We organised EP2003/Charleroi in just a few months, and the point of discussing things now is to not have to go through that again... Cheers, M. -- 8. A programming language is low level when its programs require attention to the irrelevant. -- Alan Perlis, http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html From mwh@python.net Mon Jul 7 15:42:33 2003 From: mwh@python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 15:42:33 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Two EPC in 2004? :) In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030705193703.02006dd0@www.thinkware.se> (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?q?Lyck=E5's?= message of "Sat, 05 Jul 2003 20:15:49 +0200") References: <20030704115816.GB14604@vet.uu.nl> <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <20030704115816.GB14604@vet.uu.nl> <5.2.1.1.0.20030705193703.02006dd0@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <2m7k6uo0ti.fsf@starship.python.net> Magnus Lyck=E5 writes: > What do the people who have been more involved think? Is it > viable to run two Python conferences in Europe only three > months apart? What do *I* think? I do not think it is viable. Cheers, M. --=20 (ps: don't feed the lawyers: they just lose their fear of humans) -- Peter Wood, comp.lang.lisp From faassen@vet.uu.nl Mon Jul 7 16:31:27 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 17:31:27 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> Message-ID: <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> Denis Fr=E8re wrote: > I've followed the good advice : close my mailbox for the week-end and > come back with calm and serenity after the week-end. >=20 > First of all, I would like to apologize for not having discussed the > point with Martijn before announcing EPC 2004. Thanks for the apology; I appreciate it very much, but if you are just apologizing to me this is beside the point I've been trying to make. But from this mail I unstand it's at least in a large part directed to just me, as you keep mentioning my name. :) I do want to let any implication be there though that I was arguing for=20 myself only; if it had just been me I'd not have made all this noise. I care about EuroPython and the EuroPython team; I felt this was damaged.= =20 For me it's easier to just hop in the train to Charleroi in 2004 than alm= ost any other location. I do not feel that just doing so without at least some deliberation among this group is in the best interest of any of us though, including myself. > Indeed, we discussed a > lot during the conference, Tim even came with this quite publicly, but > as a matter of fact, To make matters clear on this too, as I personally recall this occasion; it's been quoted a lot to mean almost anything, just like any statistics, so let me bend it to my particular point of view too: He asked the crowd whether people were going to not show up if it were to be held in location X, Y, or Z. Raise your hand if you won't show up. I didn't raise my hand 3 times; I'll do my best to show up wherever it is held in Europe, of course. I didn't recall lots of people raising their hands in any case, but then I didn't do a count. This is *not* the same at all in my mind to actually discussing the choic= e itself, just to get some data on how the various locations might matter. > I didn't ask Martijn's advice. > And after the conference, while being still 'warm', encouraged by some > (biased) advices, I couldn't refrain my juvenile enthousiasm. :-) > Sorry Martijn. and sorry everybody else who didn't think this was the optimal thing to do (to announce it; asking my advice only matters to *me*), I hope and assume. > Second, I think that everybody will agree now that this fuss comes > from one main reason : we don't have defined the way of how decisions > are taken. I also was rather shocked as I believed we at least had the standard of fair, wide and open communication in our making of decisions, if nothing else. > That was the enlightened conclusion of some of you (Martijn, > Jacob, Andy, ...)=20 >=20 [setting up an association for EuroPython] It's very good that you've been taking these steps! Thanks. We're all eag= er to learn more about this, I'm sure. > Here is a copy of the parts I fully support : >=20 > [blaming nobody] > > The most helpful thing in promoting an event is a clear decision on d= ates > > and location. The best way to achieve this is to do it at each > > conference. So I suggest that in future, anyone wanting to "bid" sta= rts > > doing so on the list about 15 months before, and all candidates prese= nt > > their case in a session before the keynote. Then we have a show of h= ands. > > Others could vote by proxy on the list with a deadline of lunchtime = that > > day so there is time to count. Whoever winds has a whole year to pla= n and > > their advance publicity is already done. I think this voting procedure needs to be worked so it's fair and not biased towards 'locals' who may often be motivated to vote for something nearby. I still think a membership system is still preferable, where members can vote. Conference attendees will becom= e automatic members for the next N years, perhaps. Others can become a memb= er for a moderate price.=20 Another quibble is the timing; being caught up in both the preparation fo= r the conference this year and the whole voting story for the *coming* year may be too distracting at that point. It's hard to say. I don't=20 know how other organizations deal with this. Anyway, Andy's procedure is still much better than what we have now, of course. :) > > A common topic in the corridors was 'where is next year'. Tim asked = for a > > public show of hands (I think, I missed it). Francis made a very str= ong > > and reasoned case for keeping it where it is. Lots of people enjoy it= in > > Belgium and there is a precedent for having European institutions the= re. * Francis is happily quoted by everybody when he says the conference sho= uld stay in one place, but then Andy proceeds with saying=20 'why not two conferences?' (which I do note Denis did not quote, so this is only to Andy). Francis also made a case for just one conferenc= e a year. This rather weakens Andy's argument. :) =20 I can list my case for having EuroPython move around elsewhere. * Lots of people will enjoy it elsewhere too. * Let's keep the EU out of it. There's plenty of wrangling in the EU about where EU institutions should be too! We're a haven of agreement compared to the EU.. > > [...] > > Going forward, I believe that contenders should launch their bids abo= ut 13 > > months out (plenty of time to discuss on the lists and get facts and > > pictures on a web site), make a presentation for their own location b= efore > > the keynote, and decide it with a clear show of hands. Discussing on the list 1 month before the conference itself doesn't seem to be like a good idea, we're rather busy with more important stuff, i.e. the conference next month. The presentation of alternate locations needs to be made on the web. I=20 also suggest the actual vote is done online and after the conference is over, so that people can ponder it over for a bit and people who=20 couldn't make this year's conference can perhaps read a few conference reports. This makes it much more fair procedure than having 'second rank'= =20 voters on some mailing list somewhere. > > The only alternative I see is to try and appoint some NEUTRAL committ= ee > > who have no plans to host an event (I'll happily be on that) and let > > contenders fly us out, wine us and dine us and bribe us like the Olym= pic > > Committee..... That's not the only alternative. A membership system is another, and can be combined with this. Let's please not bring this down to two=20 alternatives straight away while there are obviously a ton of variations. Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Mon Jul 7 16:32:51 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 17:32:51 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Two EPC in 2004? :) In-Reply-To: <2m7k6uo0ti.fsf@starship.python.net> References: <20030704115816.GB14604@vet.uu.nl> <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <20030704115816.GB14604@vet.uu.nl> <5.2.1.1.0.20030705193703.02006dd0@www.thinkware.se> <2m7k6uo0ti.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <20030707153251.GB26613@vet.uu.nl> Michael Hudson wrote: > Magnus Lyck=E5 writes: >=20 > > What do the people who have been more involved think? Is it > > viable to run two Python conferences in Europe only three > > months apart? >=20 > What do *I* think? I do not think it is viable. >=20 I agree completely with this. Not viable at all at this stage. Regards, Martijn From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Mon Jul 7 16:47:23 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 17:47:23 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <20030707154723.GS22999@logilab.fr> On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 05:31:27PM +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: > > > The only alternative I see is to try and appoint some NEUTRAL committee > > > who have no plans to host an event (I'll happily be on that) and let > > > contenders fly us out, wine us and dine us and bribe us like the Olympic > > > Committee..... > > That's not the only alternative. A membership system is another, and > can be combined with this. Let's please not bring this down to two > alternatives straight away while there are obviously a ton of variations. As you started doing, I suggest we start writing down the alternatives we have and build on that. Let's make sure the discussion does not go in circles from now on. Could someone step up and take care of writing down the different proposal and putting them up on a website ? I, for sure, can't do this, even if this is much needed. A (very) quick summary : - candidates : Denis and friends in Charleroi Strakt and friends in Goteburg Andy and friends in UK - decision process andy: make offer 13 month in advance. ask conference attendees to wave hands martijn: membership system and online vote nicolas(me): past years attendees get one vote (online vote) - formal organisation denis: international non-profit nicolas(me): PBF SIG (I will elaborate later) I probably forgot something althought I read all my mail today, which proves we need to write down and sum things up properly. Please someone step up and take over from this point. Thanks. -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Mon Jul 7 15:58:35 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 16:58:35 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Two EPC in 2004? :) In-Reply-To: <2m7k6uo0ti.fsf@starship.python.net> References: <20030704115816.GB14604@vet.uu.nl> <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <20030704115816.GB14604@vet.uu.nl> <5.2.1.1.0.20030705193703.02006dd0@www.thinkware.se> <2m7k6uo0ti.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <20030707145835.GQ22999@logilab.fr> On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 03:42:33PM +0100, Michael Hudson wrote: > Magnus Lyckå writes: > > > What do the people who have been more involved think? Is it > > viable to run two Python conferences in Europe only three > > months apart? > > What do *I* think? I do not think it is viable. I also think that one EuroPython per year is more than enough, both for the attendees and for the organizing staff. This should not prevent local events to be set up, but I think it would be a mistake for example to organize a french Python event and to send invitations and announcements everywhere in Europe. If it is to be held in the north of France, people from belgium may join, in the south, people from north of Spain or Italy, etc. but trying to organize in France a Python event targeted at everyone everywhere would be a mistake in my opinion, since this is the job of EuroPython. Replace France with any other european country and my opinion still holds. -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From faassen@vet.uu.nl Mon Jul 7 17:17:14 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 18:17:14 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030707122253.GC22999@logilab.fr> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <200307041203.h64C3qOs021784@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704153852.02016e30@www.thinkware.se> <20030707122253.GC22999@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <20030707161714.GA27068@vet.uu.nl> Nicolas Chauvat wrote: > On Fri, Jul 04, 2003 at 04:07:17PM +0200, Magnus Lyck=E5 wrote: > > I had a thought that it might be practical to make EuroPython > > into a SIG under the Python Business Foundation. >=20 > That's a possible option. What do people on this list think about this? To rattle off some possible objections to this: One possible objection to PBF is that it is at least in its name business oriented, which may not sit well with institutions and random hackers. Another possible objection is that Zope has another organizational structure, and EuroPython is also a large Zope event. I don't know how well the PBF works at present to be able to support this either; I haven't had time to invest in BPF so far. Can they carry the risk, etc. Might there not be a conflict of interest at least for 200= 4=20 concerning G=F6tenburg? Regards, Martijn From lac@strakt.com Mon Jul 7 17:40:32 2003 From: lac@strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 18:40:32 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: Message from "Nicolas Chauvat" of "Mon, 07 Jul 2003 17:47:23 +0200." <20030707154723.GS22999@logilab.fr> References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <20030707154723.GS22999@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <200307071640.h67GeWq3027603@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Mon, 07 Jul 2003 17:47:23 +0200, "Nicolas Chauvat" writes: >A (very) quick summary : > >- candidates : > > Denis and friends in Charleroi > Strakt and friends in Goteburg And I repeat, the Göteborg offer comes from the larger Python community of Göteborg, and not from Strakt. I think that the idea that a community conference is something that a COMPANY gives a community is distinctly wrong. It ought to be something which we give ourselves. > Andy and friends in UK I thought it was Tim Cooper who was offering. >Please someone step up and take over from this point. Thanks. Not me, I have a plane to catch. Laura > >-- >Nicolas Chauvat > >http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (Fr >ance) > >_______________________________________________ >EuroPython mailing list >EuroPython@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Mon Jul 7 17:34:32 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 18:34:32 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030707161714.GA27068@vet.uu.nl> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <200307041203.h64C3qOs021784@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704153852.02016e30@www.thinkware.se> <20030707122253.GC22999@logilab.fr> <20030707161714.GA27068@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <20030707163431.GU22999@logilab.fr> On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 06:17:14PM +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: > Nicolas Chauvat wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 04, 2003 at 04:07:17PM +0200, Magnus Lyckå wrote: > > > I had a thought that it might be practical to make EuroPython > > > into a SIG under the Python Business Foundation. > > > > That's a possible option. What do people on this list think about this? > > To rattle off some possible objections to this: > > One possible objection to PBF is that it is at least in its name > business oriented, which may not sit well with institutions and > random hackers. But then when I claim that EuroPython is not a business oriented event and should acknowledge its "ahckers talk to hackers" nature, people (including you) tell me that this is false and good business contacts were made at EP02 and 03... And a name is only a name anyway... my idea does not include the renaming of the conference to Python Business Conference :-) > Another possible objection is that Zope has another > organizational structure, and EuroPython is also a large Zope event. I hardly see the point, unless you think it is worth reviving the "should not we name it EuroPythonZope conference?" thread that took place on this mailing list a year and a half ago. > I don't know how well the PBF works at present to be able to support > this either; I haven't had time to invest in BPF so far. Can they carry > the risk, etc. The bylaws of the PBF were designed to offer the possibility to support such efforts. The way it could work is the following : PBF members form a EuroPython SIG. The SIG organizes itself as it wishes, including electing its own board. The SIG reports to the board of the PBF. The SIG takes its own decisions, decides on its own membership costs, can accept as SIG members people that are not members of the PBF (as this is already the case for the PIT-SIG), etc. As you can see, PBF SIGs can be made quite independent from the PBF, while still avoiding to duplicate the cumbersome work of creating an official structure, opening bank accounts, etc. Moreover, the PBF already has its own server and could easily host the resources necessary for web site, mailing list, etc. (but I'm not trying either to prevent Amaze from going on sponsoring EP as they've been doing so far). > Might there not be a conflict of interest at least for 2004 > concerning Götenburg? I trust Jacob and Laura not to try to use their positions as board members to influence a decision that would be taken by the EuroPython SIG members. And thinking about it, I hardly see any way in which they could use their positions as board members... everything would be done in the open and it's not like they have the right to fire or reject the persons there. And even if it were the case, the whole PBF would be discredited and our efforts so far wasted. Does that answer enough of your questions to make a PBF SIG appear like a valid solution ? -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Mon Jul 7 18:03:38 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:03:38 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <200307071640.h67GeWq3027603@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <20030707154723.GS22999@logilab.fr> <200307071640.h67GeWq3027603@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <20030707170338.GV22999@logilab.fr> On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 06:40:32PM +0200, Laura Creighton wrote: > In a message of Mon, 07 Jul 2003 17:47:23 +0200, "Nicolas Chauvat" writes: > > > > >A (very) quick summary : > > > >- candidates : > > > > Denis and friends in Charleroi > > Strakt and friends in Goteburg > > And I repeat, the Göteborg offer comes from the larger Python community > of Göteborg, and not from Strakt. I think that the idea that a > community conference is something that a COMPANY gives a community > is distinctly wrong. It ought to be something which we give ourselves. > > > Andy and friends in UK > > I thought it was Tim Cooper who was offering. This proves again that we have to write things down in a single place to avoid any further misunderstanding and bad interpretations of what was said. My apologies for the above mistakes. -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de Mon Jul 7 18:15:18 2003 From: gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:15:18 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Two EPC in 2004? :) In-Reply-To: <20030707145835.GQ22999@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <94F94624-B09E-11D7-8438-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> Nicolas Chauvat: > I also think that one EuroPython per year is more than enough, both > for the attendees and for the organizing staff. Well, it doesn't have to be the same staff! If some folks would like to organise the yearly Intergalactic Pythonista Conference - why not?! If there are enough Aliens speaking English well enough to have the event on planet Earth, go for it! ;-) Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman ...................................................................... "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it." (Oscar Wilde) From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Mon Jul 7 18:22:34 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:22:34 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Two EPC in 2004? :) In-Reply-To: <94F94624-B09E-11D7-8438-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> References: <20030707145835.GQ22999@logilab.fr> <94F94624-B09E-11D7-8438-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: <20030707172234.GW22999@logilab.fr> On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 07:15:18PM +0200, Dinu Gherman wrote: > Nicolas Chauvat: > > >I also think that one EuroPython per year is more than enough, both > >for the attendees and for the organizing staff. > > Well, it doesn't have to be the same staff! If some folks would like > to organise the yearly Intergalactic Pythonista Conference - why not?! > If there are enough Aliens speaking English well enough to have the > event on planet Earth, go for it! ;-) You have a point for the staff. It does not have to be the same. My concern with more than one EP per year is that my main interest in EP it the opportunity to meet with everyone in a single place. I don't have time to travel to different places many times per year to attend to different Python events in order to get a chance to meet with everyone. The critical mass factor is responsible in a large part for the success of the conference. You go because you know everyone will go and this is the occasion to easily meet with everyone. If you have many EP conferences, chances are you'll end up with small ones and a bigger one. See my previous e-mail: let's keep EP the big one and have local conferences for those that want it. But sending out the message that "there are several EP conference per year" is IMHO a very bad idea that could destroy our fragile successes of EP02 and EP03. -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de Mon Jul 7 18:30:51 2003 From: gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:30:51 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Two EPC in 2004? :) In-Reply-To: <20030707172234.GW22999@logilab.fr> Message-ID: Nicolas Chauvat: > My concern with more than one EP per year is that my main interest in > EP > it the opportunity to meet with everyone in a single place. I don't > have time > to travel to different places many times per year to attend to > different > Python events in order to get a chance to meet with everyone. > > The critical mass factor is responsible in a large part for the > success of > the conference. You go because you know everyone will go and this is > the > occasion to easily meet with everyone. > > If you have many EP conferences, chances are you'll end up with small > ones > and a bigger one. See my previous e-mail: let's keep EP the big one and > have local conferences for those that want it. But sending out the > message > that "there are several EP conference per year" is IMHO a very bad > idea that > could destroy our fragile successes of EP02 and EP03. Well well, I'd also like to have only one good newspaper to read exactly what I'm interested in and only one good TV programme to broadcast the movies I like most, etc. Fact is, it ain't gonna happen anytime, soon... :-/ Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman ...................................................................... "The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple." (Oscar Wilde) From mwh@python.net Mon Jul 7 18:41:41 2003 From: mwh@python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 18:41:41 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Two EPC in 2004? :) In-Reply-To: <20030707172234.GW22999@logilab.fr> ("Nicolas Chauvat"'s message of "Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:22:34 +0200") References: <20030707145835.GQ22999@logilab.fr> <94F94624-B09E-11D7-8438-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> <20030707172234.GW22999@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <2my8zamdyi.fsf@starship.python.net> "Nicolas Chauvat" writes: > On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 07:15:18PM +0200, Dinu Gherman wrote: >> Nicolas Chauvat: >> >> >I also think that one EuroPython per year is more than enough, both >> >for the attendees and for the organizing staff. >> >> Well, it doesn't have to be the same staff! If some folks would like >> to organise the yearly Intergalactic Pythonista Conference - why not?! >> If there are enough Aliens speaking English well enough to have the >> event on planet Earth, go for it! ;-) > > You have a point for the staff. It does not have to be the same. While true, there wasn't exactly an over abundance of people wanting to be staff at EP2003. Cheers, M. who wishes he had more useful things to say about organisation -- 42. You can measure a programmer's perspective by noting his attitude on the continuing vitality of FORTRAN. -- Alan Perlis, http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html From Tom Deprez" Message-ID: <014301c344b2$7a676610$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> [snip] > Regarding the poll: yes, the answers were very biased by the > questions. > There was no way to indicate "I'm not sure, but the chances of going > to > a conference in Goterburg are higher than one in Charleroi". However, > there is a useful way to repeat the poll, if we want to: Tom D. has > e-mails of all conference attendees, right? Just send them an e-mail > with a unique ID and pointing to a website with a poll. This will > insure the results won't be faked by people who would not go to a conference > in Europe. Sadly, this will also insure the results won't be faked by > people who would not go to a conference in Chareloroi, too :) No problem, we've a list. So, if somebody wants to setup a poll, people can be informed about it. I've to catch up with several other things before I would be able to set up a poll. Regards, Tom. From gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de Mon Jul 7 19:57:48 2003 From: gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 20:57:48 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030707163431.GU22999@logilab.fr> Message-ID: Nicolas Chauvat: > PBF members form a EuroPython SIG. > > The SIG organizes itself as it wishes, including electing its own > board. > > The SIG takes its own decisions, decides on its own membership costs, > can accept as SIG members people that are not members of the PBF (as > this > is already the case for the PIT-SIG), etc. > > As you can see, PBF SIGs can be made quite independent from the PBF, > while > still avoiding to duplicate the cumbersome work of creating an official > structure, opening bank accounts, etc. Isn't all this suggesting that the SIG could be part of anything else, too, like being a sibling of the Distutils-SIG, say? For me the essential thing is that such a group has a working format and a list of people with responsibilities visibly attached to their names. Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman ...................................................................... "How is the world ruled and led to war? Diplomats lie to journalists and believe these lies when they see them in print." (Karl Kraus) From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Mon Jul 7 20:01:04 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:01:04 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: References: <20030707163431.GU22999@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <20030707190104.GB8540@logilab.fr> On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 08:57:48PM +0200, Dinu Gherman wrote: > Nicolas Chauvat: > > >PBF members form a EuroPython SIG. > > > >The SIG organizes itself as it wishes, including electing its own > >board. > > > >The SIG takes its own decisions, decides on its own membership costs, > >can accept as SIG members people that are not members of the PBF (as > >this > >is already the case for the PIT-SIG), etc. > > > >As you can see, PBF SIGs can be made quite independent from the PBF, > >while > >still avoiding to duplicate the cumbersome work of creating an official > >structure, opening bank accounts, etc. > > Isn't all this suggesting that the SIG could be part of anything > else, too, like being a sibling of the Distutils-SIG, say? > > For me the essential thing is that such a group has a working format > and a list of people with responsibilities visibly attached to their > names. Hmmm. It also needs a bank account. A list will not go all the way. -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From faassen@vet.uu.nl Mon Jul 7 20:15:10 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:15:10 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Two EPC in 2004? :) In-Reply-To: <94F94624-B09E-11D7-8438-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> References: <20030707145835.GQ22999@logilab.fr> <94F94624-B09E-11D7-8438-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: <20030707191510.GA28734@vet.uu.nl> Dinu Gherman wrote: > Nicolas Chauvat: > > >I also think that one EuroPython per year is more than enough, both > >for the attendees and for the organizing staff. > > Well, it doesn't have to be the same staff! If some folks would like > to organise the yearly Intergalactic Pythonista Conference - why not?! > If there are enough Aliens speaking English well enough to have the > event on planet Earth, go for it! ;-) Having *two* staffs while we already have trouble with one? :) Perhaps the aliens can pull it off, but in reality this seems rather unrealistic and counterproductive. You'd be competing, and it would create a lot of confusion. I'm not even sure Andy himself finds this a realistic alternative if he considers it a bit more. Let's just accept that we'll have to work together! Regards, Martijn From Tom Deprez" <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> > I think this voting procedure needs to be worked so it's fair and not > biased towards 'locals' who may often be motivated to vote for > something nearby. I still think a membership system is > still preferable, where members can vote. Conference attendees will > become automatic members for the next N years, perhaps. Others can > become a member for a moderate price. Mmm, I'm not in favor of a membership system. Look at the failure of EuroZope. How many people did register them as a member? I know I did, but I think there were only a few. Also, the donation setup at EuroPython didn't gave lot's of result, while it also clearly states that the donations will be used for the future of EuroPython. All this gives me the idea that payed memberships just don't work. However, the idea of making conference attendees a member is a nice idea. That could be possible. Regards, Tom. From gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de Mon Jul 7 20:33:54 2003 From: gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:33:54 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] More inspiration from LinuxTag Message-ID: http://www.linuxtag.org/2003/en/conferences/free.html Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman ...................................................................... "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." (Arthur C. Clarke) From Tom Deprez" For those interested: Amaze upgraded the old instance of europython to Zope 2.6.1. I installed CMF 1.3.1 and Plone 1.0.3. Revamp the website? Now it's time to volunteer. Nicolas Chauvat already volunteerd, somebody else? Regards, Tom. From magnus@thinkware.se Mon Jul 7 22:26:18 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 23:26:18 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <20030707170338.GV22999@logilab.fr> References: <200307071640.h67GeWq3027603@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <20030707154723.GS22999@logilab.fr> <200307071640.h67GeWq3027603@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030707231824.01fd5988@www.thinkware.se> At 19:03 2003-07-07 +0200, Nicolas Chauvat wrote: > > > Andy and friends in UK > > > > I thought it was Tim Cooper who was offering. > >This proves again that we have to write things down in a single place >to avoid any further misunderstanding and bad interpretations of what >was said. My apologies for the above mistakes. There is a mail in the list archives where M-A Lemburg says that Tim Couper (sic) has mentioned the possibility of running it in or near Oxford. http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2003-April/002879.html That's the only UK offer I saw. Did he mention anything in Charleroi? Are you here Tim? -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From magnus@thinkware.se Tue Jul 8 00:27:28 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:27:28 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC as a PBF SIG In-Reply-To: References: <20030707163431.GU22999@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030707232842.02047dc0@www.thinkware.se> At 20:57 2003-07-07 +0200, Dinu Gherman wrote: >Isn't all this suggesting that the SIG could be part of anything >else, too, like being a sibling of the Distutils-SIG, say? No. The problem is that there is no formal legal entity behind EuroPython. The Distutils-SIG can't sign a contract. Neither can "the Europython community". Today, someone else--a company or a person--has to take on this responsibility, and that means that someone is taking a financial risk, and contractors might not trust you as a customer when what was supposed to be "The Europython Conference" turned out to by a private person, or some completely different company when it's time to write contracts. The Python Business Forum can sign contracts, since it's a legal entity. It can also open bank accounts, borrow money, pay salaries etc etc. It's basically allowed to do anything that a company can do--except make a steady profit... At 18:34 2003-07-07 +0200, Nicolas Chauvat wrote: >The SIG takes its own decisions, decides on its own membership costs, >can accept as SIG members people that are not members of the PBF (as this >is already the case for the PIT-SIG), etc. > >As you can see, PBF SIGs can be made quite independent from the PBF, while >still avoiding to duplicate the cumbersome work of creating an official >structure, opening bank accounts, etc. The SIG itself can't sign contracts though. It would be the Python Business Foundation that had to sign contracts for renting conference rooms, catering etc. According to the bylaws, the board can delegate the right to sign contracts within limited issues to for instance a SIG chairman, but the board is still fully responsible for the PBF's economy etc. This means that the PBF board might get in danger if it gives the SIG completely free hands. As the current auditor for the Python Business Forum, I can say right away that I would not recommend the General Assembly to grant the board discharge from liability if they had given the SIG free hands, and the SIG caused a finacial disaster for the PBF. The board, and the board alone, is responsible for the economy and actions of the PBF between the General Assemblies where the members meet to decide over these things. A EuroPython SIG within the PBF can certainly have a large degree of independance, as long as it doesn't jeopardize the PBF, but if the PBF is about to take some kind of financial risk, such as renting conference rooms (and maybe noone shows up for the conference) the board must feel confident that they are doing something reasonable. It might still end up being a disaster, and as long as the board can show that they did their job, and made a reasonable assessment of the situation (which eventually turned out to be wrong) it's ok. It's not good of course, but shit happens. But the board can't say: "We didn't care, since the SIG is running EPC. We just gave the EPC SIG chairman a warrant to sign contracts regarding the conference and then we let them handle all those things." I assume each warrant issued by the board will have clear limits and routines to follow up how it's used. If the EuroPython organisation is to be *completely* independent from everybody else, such as the PBF board, it really needs to be a legal entity on its own. I'm curious to hear more about this "International Non Profit Association" thingie from Denis, but I still feel that a PBF SIG might be just the right level of formality. >I trust Jacob and Laura not to try to use their positions as board members >to influence a decision that would be taken by the EuroPython SIG members. Agreed. I'm sure that both Jacob and Laura values the trust and respect of the Python community much more than the chance to organize a conference in G=F6teborg. I'm also sure they want EPC to work out as well as possible, wherever it takes place. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language=20 From magnus@thinkware.se Tue Jul 8 01:42:03 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 02:42:03 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Sharing EPC financial risk Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708012733.01ffe8b8@www.thinkware.se> The discussion about formalizing EPC made me think of something else... It seems reasonable to me that we who run Python-related companies could share some limited risk for the EPC between ourselves. If many of us chip in, the worst case cost for each one of us should still be fairly small. Has anything like this been in play for the past events? I guess some kind of sponsor agreement, where sponsors pay a nominal fee for some kind of exposure (like the ads in the brochure &c) could be combined with a possibly higher cost in the case of a financial loss for the conference. I'm not sure about tax deductability for a pure loss coverage guarantee. After all, to be tax deductable, an expence should benefit the company making the payment. I'm pretty sure it's ok if the risk premium is made part of a sponsoring agreement where a PR benefit is included though. I guess it would be easier to construct such a joint risk sharing system if there was some formal organization that could be a contractual partner. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From dario@ita.chalmers.se Tue Jul 8 03:06:13 2003 From: dario@ita.chalmers.se (=?Windows-1252?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 04:06:13 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC as an EuroPython Association SIG Message-ID: <16b501c344f5$81eb8cc0$6500a8c0@WALTER> Hello, actually I shouldn't be writing this letter now, because it is too late (1.41 in the morning), but here goes anyway. My impressions, my observations, my analysis. I may be wrong - in which case I beg of you to correct me so that we can summarise the state of affairs so far and how we ought to move forward. My personal impression is the EPC is THE conference of the EuroPython community. It is community work, and as such it is performed in an ad hoc way. So far it seems clear that a) the EPC 2003 was a success and b) the success was because of those who invested time and effort organsising the event - often far more time and effort than was expected. For this we are all gratefull. It is also clear that so far, volunteering to organise the EPC means, worst case, a big personal financial and cerdibility risk, because there is no legal entity behind the EPC taking all the heat - just a bunch of individuals trying to make a conference. This, in general, makes organising the EPC a risky business on many levels. The shortcomings of the way the EPC has been organised so far, make themselves apparent when it relates to issues that lie outside the practicalities of organising the event itself. The discussion started off with the way it was decided where the next conference was to be held - that decision was made in the ad hoc spirit of the way the EPC was organised. A brief discussion of how/if to re-imburse those working with the EPC conference took, again rasing questions of how suc things are decided, by what authority, etc. Then a great deal of time was spent in presenting alternatives of the EPC location - making apparent once more the lack of structured ways to collect information and make such decisions. Now, lately there is discussion of how to make the EPC a SIG under an organised body, such as the PBF - making the EP community a SIG under the PBF has been suggested, as well. All of the above, imho, should lead us to the obvious conclusion: we need to formalise the way the EuroPython Community organises itself. For various reasons, we need the structure and strength that a formal entity can give us. Simply put, we need a EuroPython Association, formalised in a similar manner to how PBF is, to back up and sponsor the activities of the EP community - specifically backing up the EPC, it being the largest event of the EP community to date. There are some valid objectiona to build a formal entity, and EuroZope has ben pointed out as an example of such an entity not working to it's full potential. However, I think that there are other reasons for EuroZope not working, among them the fact that EuroPython pretty much covers a lot of Zope-land, and also the fact, that it, at least for me personally, is not clear what kind of work EuroZope is supposed to do. Several of the activities listed this year relate to Zope being promoted at various fairs in Europe. In my personal opinion, EuroZope had a bad start with various important bits of information being availabe in German only, many references being made for a German speaking audience only, something which was brought up on the mailinglist as well. It is also very difficult to become a member of EuroZope; the link on the site is dead: http://www.eurozope.de/EuroDe/Members. (this is not bashing EuroZope and those working in it - I appreciate first hand the difficulties in running a community user group from current personal experience) Conferences usually are a, if not the, main event of many communities, and there simply is not enough space for both a large Zope conference in Europe as well as an equally large Python conference. People would have to choose which one to attend, thus diluting the amount of participants for each. Note that this is also my argument against having more than one Europe-wide Python conference - we simply are not large enough, at least not yet. There is no reason why this should happen to an EPA. With regard to the objection that if we have an EPA people will fall back and wait for the board to do all the work: I would like to point out that that is exaclty the situation now anyway - I didn't exactly notice the organisers of EPC beating off hoards of volunteers with a stick... still it works because there are those that think this kind of work is fun. We also have one crucial valuable thing regarding the EPC - it has it's own momentum, almost giving it a life of it's own. So, I really think it is time to form an EuroPython Association. I would *very* much like to know the details of the work Denis have carried out in this regard. I personally do not think that we need to go thru the trouble of making it an International Association. Indeed, I sincerely would prefer that we set up it up modelled after the PBF - either resembling or making it an actual Swedish non-profit society - which is has the advantages of being both less buerocratic and faster to setup while still being a legally valid non-profit in an EU-country. I spent the weekend writing the bylaws of an imagined EuroPython Association. Further I propose that, at the forming of the EPA, the EPC be immediately constituted as a SIG under the EPA and immediately set to work on realising the EPC 2004. Why not form the EPC as a PBF SIG? Becausae it think that the EPA and the PBF have different goals that complement each other. If we want to keep the EPC a community event, then it should be under the EPA. The only thing required to form an EPA based on the above, is to announce a meeting, hold the meeting and elect a board, form the sig, and presto. Denis - how does this fit into the work you have done? /dario - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. PS: For those that want to look at the bylaws I constructed as proposal, you are welcome to look at this url: http://www.ita.chalmers.se/~dario/europython/ep_bylaws_proposal.txt From dario@ita.chalmers.se Tue Jul 8 03:17:19 2003 From: dario@ita.chalmers.se (=?Windows-1252?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 04:17:19 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC as an EuroPython Association SIG References: <16b501c344f5$81eb8cc0$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <16c001c344f7$0f123c10$6500a8c0@WALTER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dario Lopez-Kästen" of Tech. > > PS: For those that want to look at the bylaws I constructed as proposal, you > are welcome to look at this url: > > http://www.ita.chalmers.se/~dario/europython/ep_bylaws_proposal.txt > and i forgot to mention: these bylaaws are largely based on/stolen from ;) the PBF byalaws (from which I shamelessly stole all english terminology), with some additional stuff from other bylaws that I have writen previously. Credit where credit is due :-) /dario From gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de Tue Jul 8 05:43:17 2003 From: gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 06:43:17 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EPC as a PBF SIG In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030707232842.02047dc0@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: Magnus Lyck=E5: > [obvious stuff deleted] You missed my point. I wasn't saying a legal body would not be use- ful. I only said I can't see why an existing legal body, PBF/PSF... would make any of its SIGs "more legal" than a more legal SIG w/o the legal body around it, given that quite some of Nicolas' argu- ments indicated a complete independance of the respected body and SIG apart from things like a bank account. Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman ...................................................................... "The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple." (Oscar Wilde) From Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de Tue Jul 8 09:08:17 2003 From: Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de (Andrew Smart) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 10:08:17 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC organisational structure In-Reply-To: <007f01c34238$be840230$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: SGkgZm9sa3MsDQoNCndlIGhhZCBvbmNlIHRoaXMgc29ydCBvZiBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIGFib3V0IHRo ZSANCm9yZ2FuaXNhdGlvbmFsIHN0cnVjdHVyZSBvZiB0aGUgRVBDLg0KDQpTaW5jZSBQM0IgdG9v ayB0aGUgcmlzayB3ZSBkaWRuJ3QgZGVjaWRlIG9uIHRoYXQNCmlzc3VlIHdoaWNoIGlzIG5vdyBh Z2FpbiBvbiB0aGUgZGVzay4gT25lIG9mDQp0aGUgc2lkZSBlZmZlY3RzIG9mIHRoaXMgZGlzY3Vz c2lvbiB3YXMgdGhlDQpmb3VuZGluZyBvZiB0aGUgUEJGLg0KDQpUaGUgZGlmZmVyZW50IHBvc3Np YmlsaXRpZXMgYW5kIG9waW5pb25zIG1heSBiZSANCmZvdW5kIGluIHRoZSBsaXN0IGFyY2hpdmVz LCBJJ20gc3VyZS4NCg0KQmVzaWRlcyBmb3JtaW5nIHNvbWUgbm9uLXByb2ZpdCBvcmdhbmlzYXRp b24gSQ0Kc3VnZ2VzdCB0byBmb3JtIGEgZXVyb3BlYW4gbWFya2V0aW5nIGFzc29jaWF0aW9uDQoo dGhlIHRleHQgaXMgYSBjb3B5ICYgcGFzdGUgZnJvbSBhIG1haWwgDQpJJ3ZlIHdyaXR0ZW4gb25j 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THV4ZW1idXJnDQogRmF4OiArMzUyLzI5MjkgNDI2NzANCg0KIEV1cm9w5GlzY2hlIEtvbW1pc3Np b24NCiBTZWtyZXRhcmlhdCB2b24gSGVycm4gUmVpbmhhcmQgU2NodWx0ZS1CcmF1Y2tzIC0gR0Qg WFhJSUkvQS8xDQogUnVlIGRlIGxhIExvaSAyMDAsIEFOIDgwDQogQi0xMDQ5IEJy/HNzZWwNCiAo RmF4ICszMi4yLjI5NS45Ny44NCkNCg0KVGhlIGxhdyBhYm91dCBFV0lWIGluIEJlbGdpdW0gaXMg YmFzZWQgb246DQogLSBsYXcgZnJvbSAxMi43Ljg5IGFib3V0IHRoZSBpbnRyb2R1Y3Rpb24gb2Yg RVdJViANCiAtIHJlZ3VsYXRpb24gOC8xOTg5IGRhdGluZyAzMS44Ljg5IGFib3V0IHRheGVzDQog DQpUaGUgbGluayAoMTA1IEdlcm1hbiBwYWdlcykNCmh0dHA6Ly9ldXJvcGEuZXUuaW50L2NvbW0v ZW50ZXJwcmlzZS9saWJyYXJ5L2xpYi1lbnRyZXByZW5ldXJzaGlwL2RvYy9nZWllL2hhbmRia2Rl LnBkZg0KDQpBbmRyZXc= From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Tue Jul 8 08:44:26 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 09:44:26 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC as a PBF SIG In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030707232842.02047dc0@www.thinkware.se> References: <20030707163431.GU22999@logilab.fr> <5.2.1.1.0.20030707232842.02047dc0@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <20030708074426.GA32647@logilab.fr> On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 01:27:28AM +0200, Magnus Lyckå wrote: > At 20:57 2003-07-07 +0200, Dinu Gherman wrote: > >Isn't all this suggesting that the SIG could be part of anything > >else, too, like being a sibling of the Distutils-SIG, say? > > No. The problem is that there is no formal legal entity behind > EuroPython. The Distutils-SIG can't sign a contract. Neither can > "the Europython community". > > ... > > >I trust Jacob and Laura not to try to use their positions as board members > >to influence a decision that would be taken by the EuroPython SIG members. > > Agreed. I'm sure that both Jacob and Laura values the trust and respect > of the Python community much more than the chance to organize a conference > in Göteborg. I'm also sure they want EPC to work out as well as possible, > wherever it takes place. Well said... and for once, it wasn't that long a message ;-) -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From dario@ita.chalmers.se Tue Jul 8 09:18:02 2003 From: dario@ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 10:18:02 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython website References: <01bc01c344bf$6d4449a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> Message-ID: <170001c34529$731ef450$6500a8c0@WALTER> I can help out too. I need to get my hands dirty with Plone anyway :-) Is there a plan? /dario ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Deprez" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:38 PM Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython website > For those interested: > > Amaze upgraded the old instance of europython to Zope 2.6.1. I installed > CMF 1.3.1 and Plone 1.0.3. > Revamp the website? > > Now it's time to volunteer. > Nicolas Chauvat already volunteerd, somebody else? > > Regards, > Tom. From tim@2wave.net Tue Jul 8 09:26:35 2003 From: tim@2wave.net (=?iso-8859-1?q?Tim=20Couper?=) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 09:26:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <20030707193216.7119.14741.Mailman@mail.python.org> Message-ID: <20030708082635.49574.qmail@web60001.mail.yahoo.com> My London question from the front was merely to gauge a difference. However, I'm not a great believer in such samples (as the no. that wouldn't go to G'burg was about 20, and London 1, but then, as Alex M. correctly pointed out, the question is "of those of you that are NOT here, who would go to G'burg/London/...") In the UK, we're up to our eyes in python UK and now Linuxworld and probably have enough python events to keep us going next year (esp. as Linuxworld has been postponed till February 2004) I wonder, though, whether the propogation of Python would be better/just as well served at this time by focussing on & encouraging national/regional groups. Our experience with the UK group is most encouraging. It seems to me, for example, that there would be more French participation in the python community (in the sense of nembers attending conferences) if there was a python France conference. However national/regional conferences aren't as large as continental, and it does require there to be a critical mass of interested players. Sounds to me like there is such a critical mass in Sweden, so how about a python Scandanavia conference? FWIW I'm reminded of a friend who led the disaster recovery work after an earthquake in Latin America. What he wanted was the US Army to provide small Heuy-size helicopters so he could move personnel and resources around. They sent Chinooks because they were more visible and therefore "better" - but were not what was best. We're a bit in the same mode - Europython is the big Chinook, but I think we need to spread the word locally in our Hueys - and clearly in the Python case we do need both! Tim >A (very) quick summary : > >- candidates : > > Denis and friends in Charleroi > Strakt and friends in Goteburg And I repeat, the Göteborg offer comes from the larger Python community of Göteborg, and not from Strakt. I think that the idea that a community conference is something that a COMPANY gives a community is distinctly wrong. It ought to be something which we give ourselves. > Andy and friends in UK I thought it was Tim Cooper who was offering. >Please someone step up and take over from this point. Thanks. Not me, I have a plane to catch. Laura > >-- >Nicolas Chauvat > __________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html From tom@aragne.com Tue Jul 8 09:53:43 2003 From: tom@aragne.com (Tom Deprez) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 10:53:43 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Sharing EPC financial risk References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708012733.01ffe8b8@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <00c901c3452e$6f62e470$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> > It seems reasonable to me that we who run Python-related > companies could share some limited risk for the EPC between > ourselves. If many of us chip in, the worst case cost for > each one of us should still be fairly small. > > Has anything like this been in play for the past events? Interesting approach... yes, it has been in play in the past events (eg 2003)... but not many companies jumped in... it even turned out that P3B had to pay the loss in money. This year even less companies were interested. Even, though some sponsorship/donation systems were set-up (that didn't require much money from a company), almost nothing was received (only from 1 company). This all concludes to me that nobody in the python world really wants to pay for things like this (see last 2 EPC years). If now at a sudden they would, it would make me happy, but I would also have a bitter feeling. > I guess some kind of sponsor agreement, where sponsors > pay a nominal fee for some kind of exposure (like the > ads in the brochure &c) could be combined with a possibly > higher cost in the case of a financial loss for the > conference. hehe, forget it. Nobody wants to sponsor... look at last EPC conferences. And I don't think you would get any sponsor when you tell them: thanks for the add, but know that it might get higher if the conference goes down. (They wouldn't even pay for the add, if they knew the conference could fail...) > I'm not sure about tax deductability for a pure loss > coverage guarantee. After all, to be tax deductable, an > expence should benefit the company making the payment. I'm > pretty sure it's ok if the risk premium is made part of a > sponsoring agreement where a PR benefit is included though. > > I guess it would be easier to construct such a joint risk > sharing system if there was some formal organization that > could be a contractual partner. Also see the Zope-Europe association, how hard it is form them to get some company members. This all sounds nice in theory, but in practice it doesn't. Everytime when money gets involved it doesn't work, which in my feeling is very pitty. T. From tom@aragne.com Tue Jul 8 10:12:33 2003 From: tom@aragne.com (Tom Deprez) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:12:33 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC as an EuroPython Association SIG References: <16b501c344f5$81eb8cc0$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <00d701c34531$10c69670$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> [snip] > My personal impression is the EPC is THE conference of the EuroPython > community. It is community work, and as such it is performed in an ad > hoc way. yup. > So far it seems clear that a) the EPC 2003 was a success and b) the > success was because of those who invested time and effort organsising > the event - often far more time and effort than was expected. For > this we are all gratefull. yup. > It is also clear that so far, volunteering to organise the EPC means, > worst case, a big personal financial and cerdibility risk, because > there is no legal entity behind the EPC taking all the heat - just a > bunch of individuals trying to make a conference. This, in general, > makes organising the EPC a risky business on many levels. yup. > The shortcomings of the way the EPC has been organised so far, make > themselves apparent when it relates to issues that lie outside the > practicalities of organising the event itself. > The discussion started off with the way it was decided where the next > conference was to be held - that decision was made in the ad hoc > spirit of the way the EPC was organised. In a matter of fact I'm glad this decision was made... Otherwise we would have ended up just like last year. I'm almost sure that if there wasn't a message, nobody would have opened their mouth before december. And remember that the python community of sweden proposal will only last till 14 august (cfr. Mail of Jacob). Which I think is a very good idea to put a time-limit on such. This only shows their professionalism. > A brief discussion of how/if to re-imburse those working with the EPC > conference took, again rasing questions of how suc things are > decided, by what authority, etc. > > Then a great deal of time was spent in presenting alternatives of the > EPC location - making apparent once more the lack of structured ways > to collect information and make such decisions. > > Now, lately there is discussion of how to make the EPC a SIG under an > organised body, such as the PBF - making the EP community a SIG under > the PBF has been suggested, as well. > [snip] > > Why not form the EPC as a PBF SIG? Becausae it think that the EPA and > the PBF have different goals that complement each other. If we want > to keep the EPC a community event, then it should be under the EPA. > > The only thing required to form an EPA based on the above, is to > announce a meeting, hold the meeting and elect a board, form the sig, > and presto. Now this is were I'm a little bit afraid of. Making an EPA very quickly. This will only result (imho) to problems later on. I would urge people not to quickly in setting such things up. The only urgent thing at the moment is: 'Who will handle the conference this year and where will it be done?'. For this, there isn't an EPA needed (the last to EPC's could also do without it). Correct, the EPA is needed, but it doesn't mind when it is formed during the year, it doesn't have to be finished for EPC2004. Remember the decision of EPC2004 needs to be given soon. > Denis - how does this fit into the work you have done? Regards, Tom. From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Tue Jul 8 10:16:12 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:16:12 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython website In-Reply-To: <170001c34529$731ef450$6500a8c0@WALTER> References: <01bc01c344bf$6d4449a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <170001c34529$731ef450$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <20030708091612.GL32647@logilab.fr> On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 10:18:02AM +0200, Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote: > I can help out too. I need to get my hands dirty with Plone anyway :-) > > Is there a plan? I created http://europython-develop.zope.nl/2004 and an account for you. I'll send account info in another e-mail. I will make not effort at design, I'm just bad at it. I'll focus on features and functionnalities and let others handle appearance. I know how to deal with it in Plone though, so feel free to ask. -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From tom@aragne.com Tue Jul 8 10:21:14 2003 From: tom@aragne.com (Tom Deprez) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:21:14 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython website References: <01bc01c344bf$6d4449a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <170001c34529$731ef450$6500a8c0@WALTER> <20030708091612.GL32647@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <010401c34532$47a5b7b0$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> Nicolas Chauvat wrote: > On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 10:18:02AM +0200, Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote: >> I can help out too. I need to get my hands dirty with Plone anyway :- >> ) >> >> Is there a plan? > > I created http://europython-develop.zope.nl/2004 and an account for > you. > > I'll send account info in another e-mail. > > I will make not effort at design, I'm just bad at it. I'll focus on > features and functionnalities and let others handle appearance. I know > how to deal with it in Plone though, so feel free to ask. I would suggest to keep the design as it is. I'll look in how we can convert it to Plone. But not right away (as told), I even put too much time in responding to all these mails. T. From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Tue Jul 8 10:21:19 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:21:19 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Sharing EPC financial risk In-Reply-To: <00c901c3452e$6f62e470$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708012733.01ffe8b8@www.thinkware.se> <00c901c3452e$6f62e470$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> Message-ID: <20030708092119.GM32647@logilab.fr> On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 10:53:43AM +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: > Everytime when money gets involved it doesn't work, which in my feeling is > very pitty. Money is meant to buy things, not to be given away. There are exchanges for which money is not the right approach. Companies will be willing to contribute some time to conferences, some code to free software and not money to either one... -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From dario@ita.chalmers.se Tue Jul 8 10:28:37 2003 From: dario@ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:28:37 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Sharing EPC financial risk References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708012733.01ffe8b8@www.thinkware.se> <00c901c3452e$6f62e470$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> Message-ID: <172301c34533$4f917fd0$6500a8c0@WALTER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Deprez" To: ; "Magnus Lyckå" Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Sharing EPC financial risk > This all concludes to me that nobody in the python world really wants to pay > for things like this (see last 2 EPC years). If now at a sudden they would, > it would make me happy, but I would also have a bitter feeling. [..snip..] > > hehe, forget it. Nobody wants to sponsor... look at last EPC conferences. > And I don't think you would get any sponsor when you tell them: thanks for > the add, but know that it might get higher if the conference goes down. > (They wouldn't even pay for the add, if they knew the conference could > fail...) Here are two suggestions: 1) The loss of an EPC shoudl be inherited from previous events, so that if any EPC turns a profit, then that should go to cover the loss from previous year. This of course suggests some sort of continutity of the entity behind the EPC... (nudge, nudge... ;). 2) There has to active chasing of companies to support an event such as this. Companies will not themselves pay if thet can avoid it. The failure fo Python companies to sponsor an event like EPC can be interpreted this way: the companies are not that large, they usually operate in a limited geographic area and simply do not have the money/commercial interest to invest in sponsoring an event like EPC. Perhaps it simply is that the Python companies are too smallish and the Python market not big enough yet to attract big sponsorships like the way, say an Oracle conference would. This should lead us to ask the following: is it too expensive for small python companies to sponor an conference? Probably yes, which means that we have to find new ways of getting sponsored, offer different packages, lower the prices, accept other means of sponshorship... If we see that sponsorship of the event is not what we expect, then we need to ask companies what if and how they would like to contribute, and meet halfways - after all, a little sponsorship is better than none at all :) BTW, did we ask companies like IBM to sponsor an EPC? Any hardware companies, like Dell, Compaq or HP? We could ride on the Linux bandwagon and get sponsorship that way... > > I guess it would be easier to construct such a joint risk > > sharing system if there was some formal organization that > > could be a contractual partner. > > Also see the Zope-Europe association, how hard it is form them to get some > company members. > This all sounds nice in theory, but in practice it doesn't. > Everytime when money gets involved it doesn't work, which in my feeling is > very pitty. Right, but let's not get overwhelmed by the apparent failures of others - it doesn't mean that that will happen to us. BTW, I am sure that Zope-Europe will turn around sooner or later. /dario - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From tom@aragne.com Tue Jul 8 10:30:39 2003 From: tom@aragne.com (Tom Deprez) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:30:39 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Sharing EPC financial risk References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708012733.01ffe8b8@www.thinkware.se> <00c901c3452e$6f62e470$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <20030708092119.GM32647@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <011e01c34533$987ddd60$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> Nicolas Chauvat wrote: > On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 10:53:43AM +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: >> Everytime when money gets involved it doesn't work, which in my >> feeling is very pitty. > > Money is meant to buy things, not to be given away. > > There are exchanges for which money is not the right approach. > Companies will be willing to contribute some time to conferences, > some code to free software and not money to either one... Right, you hit the hammer on the nail.... which means: ideas which require money from the community (be it companies or members) are mostly deemed to fail. (or it must give a great benefit and I'm not sure if a conference like EPC (at the moment), or a membership website will give that benefit) Regards, Tom. From dario@ita.chalmers.se Tue Jul 8 10:36:17 2003 From: dario@ita.chalmers.se (=?Windows-1252?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:36:17 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC as an EuroPython Association SIG References: <16b501c344f5$81eb8cc0$6500a8c0@WALTER> <00d701c34531$10c69670$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> Message-ID: <172601c34534$61a49da0$6500a8c0@WALTER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Deprez" > > The discussion started off with the way it was decided where the next > > conference was to be held - that decision was made in the ad hoc > > spirit of the way the EPC was organised. > > In a matter of fact I'm glad this decision was made... Otherwise we would > have ended up just like last year. > I'm almost sure that if there wasn't a message, nobody would have opened > their mouth before december. yeah, probably :) > > The only thing required to form an EPA based on the above, is to > > announce a meeting, hold the meeting and elect a board, form the sig, > > and presto. > > Now this is were I'm a little bit afraid of. Making an EPA very quickly. > This will only result (imho) to problems later on. > I would urge people not to quickly in setting such things up. ok, but I would like to know what we are waiting for... is there an insecurity of what we want such an organisation to do? What problems do you foresee might occur if we went along with forming hte organisation now? If we look at my proposition for bylaws, are they unclear wrt the purpose of such an organsiation? If there are doubts, I suggest that we need to discuss them, now. > The only > urgent thing at the moment is: 'Who will handle the conference this year and > where will it be done?'. >For this, there isn't an EPA needed (the last to > EPC's could also do without it). Correct, the EPA is needed, but it doesn't > mind when it is formed during the year, it doesn't have to be finished for > EPC2004. yeah, the last 2 EPC managed with out a formal EPA, but they alse lead to the current discussion. Also, the lack Also, an EPA behind the EPC gives EPC more credibility. > Remember the decision of EPC2004 needs to be given soon. /dario - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From dario@ita.chalmers.se Tue Jul 8 10:37:29 2003 From: dario@ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:37:29 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Sharing EPC financial risk References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708012733.01ffe8b8@www.thinkware.se> <00c901c3452e$6f62e470$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <20030708092119.GM32647@logilab.fr> <011e01c34533$987ddd60$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> Message-ID: <172e01c34534$8ca4eaa0$6500a8c0@WALTER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Deprez" > > Right, you hit the hammer on the nail.... which means: ideas which require > money from the community (be it companies or members) are mostly deemed to > fail. > > (or it must give a great benefit and I'm not sure if a conference like EPC > (at the moment), or a membership website will give that benefit) will it harm? (not being sarcastic, just curious of your point of view) > Regards, > Tom. /dario From tom@aragne.com Tue Jul 8 10:40:46 2003 From: tom@aragne.com (Tom Deprez) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:40:46 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Sharing EPC financial risk References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708012733.01ffe8b8@www.thinkware.se> <00c901c3452e$6f62e470$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <172301c34533$4f917fd0$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <012701c34535$01fbac80$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> > Here are two suggestions: > > 1) The loss of an EPC shoudl be inherited from previous events, so > that if any EPC turns a profit, then that should go to cover the loss > from previous year. This of course suggests some sort of continutity > of the entity behind the EPC... (nudge, nudge... ;). > > 2) There has to active chasing of companies to support an event such > as this. Companies will not themselves pay if thet can avoid it. > > The failure fo Python companies to sponsor an event like EPC can be > interpreted this way: the companies are not that large, they usually > operate in a limited geographic area and simply do not have the > money/commercial interest to invest in sponsoring an event like EPC. > Perhaps it simply is that the Python companies are too smallish and > the Python market not big enough yet to attract big sponsorships like > the way, say an Oracle conference would. This idea we got too. ie Python companies are too small at the moment. > This should lead us to ask the following: is it too expensive for > small python companies to sponor an conference? Probably yes, which > means that we have to find new ways of getting sponsored, offer > different packages, lower the prices, accept other means of > sponshorship... If we see that sponsorship of the event is not what > we expect, then we need to ask companies what if and how they would > like to contribute, and meet halfways - after all, a little > sponsorship is better than none at all :) Mmm, I don't think the sponsorships could even be set lower. Is 200 Euro too much for even a small company? Ie in sponsorships through money I mean. Of course companies can sponsor by giving resources (which will end up at much higher values if you count them as hours of work) > BTW, did we ask companies like IBM to sponsor an EPC? Any hardware > companies, like Dell, Compaq or HP? We could ride on the Linux > bandwagon and get sponsorship that way... Yes, as I'm right on my talks with Denis. Denis did mad contacts with IBM and such. Of course, I'm sure more companies could have been addressed, but it is a community driven conference. If there were people with a good contact at one of such companies and they wanted to help EPC, I'm sure those people already tried to speak their contacts or forwarded these contacts to EPC. >>> I guess it would be easier to construct such a joint risk >>> sharing system if there was some formal organization that >>> could be a contractual partner. >> >> Also see the Zope-Europe association, how hard it is form them to >> get some company members. >> This all sounds nice in theory, but in practice it doesn't. >> Everytime when money gets involved it doesn't work, which in my >> feeling is very pitty. > > Right, but let's not get overwhelmed by the apparent failures of > others - it doesn't mean that that will happen to us. > > BTW, I am sure that Zope-Europe will turn around sooner or later. Of course, but I just want to say here that it isn't easy as it looks like. People need to keep this in mind and then at the end it is still the practice which needs to done. Tom From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Tue Jul 8 10:42:36 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:42:36 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Sharing EPC financial risk In-Reply-To: <011e01c34533$987ddd60$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708012733.01ffe8b8@www.thinkware.se> <00c901c3452e$6f62e470$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <20030708092119.GM32647@logilab.fr> <011e01c34533$987ddd60$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> Message-ID: <20030708094236.GP32647@logilab.fr> On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 11:30:39AM +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: > >> Everytime when money gets involved it doesn't work, which in my > >> feeling is very pitty. > > > > Money is meant to buy things, not to be given away. > > > > There are exchanges for which money is not the right approach. > > Companies will be willing to contribute some time to conferences, > > some code to free software and not money to either one... > > Right, you hit the hammer on the nail.... which means: ideas which require > money from the community (be it companies or members) are mostly deemed to > fail. I have many ideas for python's development that would require money from the community. Will you give me money for me to develop the tools, modules, etc. that would be great to have? How often do you give 100 EUR to some poor give in the street that would need it much more than you do ? -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From gotcha@swing.be Tue Jul 8 10:44:55 2003 From: gotcha@swing.be (Godefroid Chapelle) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 11:44:55 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC as an EuroPython Association SIG In-Reply-To: <00d701c34531$10c69670$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> References: <16b501c344f5$81eb8cc0$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030708114035.01f48450@pop.swing.be> At 11:12 8/07/2003, Tom Deprez wrote: >Now this is were I'm a little bit afraid of. Making an EPA very quickly. >This will only result (imho) to problems later on. >I would urge people not to quickly in setting such things up. The only >urgent thing at the moment is: 'Who will handle the conference this year and >where will it be done?'. For this, there isn't an EPA needed (the last to >EPC's could also do without it). Correct, the EPA is needed, but it doesn't >mind when it is formed during the year, it doesn't have to be finished for >EPC2004. > >Remember the decision of EPC2004 needs to be given soon. I want to second those really pragmatic thoughts of Tom (which has _done_ a lot for EPC 2002 and 2003). We need to make a decision quickly. Can I ask the Goteborg people to present their proposal to the EPC community (ie people following this list) ? So that we can avoid to go over their time limit of August 14th. >Regards, >Tom. -- Godefroid Chapelle BubbleNet sprl rue Victor Horta, 18 / 202 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve Belgium Tel + 32 (10) 459901 TVA 467 093 008 RC Niv 49849 From tom@aragne.com Tue Jul 8 11:00:54 2003 From: tom@aragne.com (Tom Deprez) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:00:54 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Sharing EPC financial risk References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708012733.01ffe8b8@www.thinkware.se> <00c901c3452e$6f62e470$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <20030708092119.GM32647@logilab.fr> <011e01c34533$987ddd60$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <172e01c34534$8ca4eaa0$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <014401c34537$d20ab220$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> >> Right, you hit the hammer on the nail.... which means: ideas which >> require money from the community (be it companies or members) are >> mostly deemed to fail. >> >> (or it must give a great benefit and I'm not sure if a conference >> like EPC (at the moment), or a membership website will give that >> benefit) > > will it harm? (not being sarcastic, just curious of your point of > view) no, it won't harm. I only don't like to do things which end up in nothing :-). But hey if others want to create it, no poblem. I only hope these people know that this work could be a waste of time and that they don't get demotivated by it. I'm not talking here concerning the new EPC website. That needs to be done. I'm more negative about setting up a membership system which allows members to pay. But it's obvious this won't be possible until a legal EPA is made or people are willing to trust an already existing non-profit organisation like PBF or P3B. Regards, Tom. From magnus@thinkware.se Tue Jul 8 11:10:34 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 12:10:34 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Sharing EPC financial risk In-Reply-To: <012701c34535$01fbac80$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708012733.01ffe8b8@www.thinkware.se> <00c901c3452e$6f62e470$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <172301c34533$4f917fd0$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708115618.01efbc08@www.thinkware.se> At 11:40 2003-07-08 +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: >Mmm, I don't think the sponsorships could even be set lower. Is 200 Euro too >much for even a small company? No, I don't think so. Personally, I wanted to visit an EPC and see what it was like before I got more involved, either personally or financially. (As usual I was unable to be quiet on the mailing list though... :) I've never been to any other Python conference, so this was the first time I met the community at large in real life. It was a great personal experience, and from the impressions I got, I also think that it has a definite business value for me. The way I feel right now, I think it makes sense for Thinkware AB to be a EPC sponsor in 2004, but things can change rapidly for a one man company, so it's difficult to say for certain a year before... A one man company is typically over-booked (and then it's difficult to contribute time) or under-booked (and then it might be difficult to contribute money)... It might also have shifted focus quite a bit... -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From tom@aragne.com Tue Jul 8 11:15:23 2003 From: tom@aragne.com (Tom Deprez) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:15:23 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Sharing EPC financial risk References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708012733.01ffe8b8@www.thinkware.se> <00c901c3452e$6f62e470$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <20030708092119.GM32647@logilab.fr> <011e01c34533$987ddd60$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <20030708094236.GP32647@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <014e01c34539$d82cc150$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> >>> There are exchanges for which money is not the right approach. >>> Companies will be willing to contribute some time to conferences, >>> some code to free software and not money to either one... >> >> Right, you hit the hammer on the nail.... which means: ideas which >> require money from the community (be it companies or members) are >> mostly deemed to fail. > > I have many ideas for python's development that would require money > from the community. Will you give me money for me to develop the > tools, modules, etc. that would be great to have? Mmm, I don't know where this discussion is going to. I already fully agree with you... > How often do you give 100 EUR to some poor give in the street that > would need it much more than you do ? Although I don't think your last examples can be companered with a conference T. From denis@aragne.com Tue Jul 8 12:07:21 2003 From: denis@aragne.com (Denis =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E8re?=) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 13:07:21 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC as an EuroPython Association SIG In-Reply-To: <16b501c344f5$81eb8cc0$6500a8c0@WALTER> References: <16b501c344f5$81eb8cc0$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <20030708110721.GC17456@carolo.net> Le Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 04:06:13AM +0200, Dario Lopez-Kästen pianota: (I'm adding these lines after I wrote the mail : though I'm answering to Dario, this is not personal for him. Through Dario, I'm speaking to all of you who feel concerned and answering to various previous mails). > It is also clear that so far, volunteering to organise the EPC means, worst > case, a big personal financial and cerdibility risk, because there is no > legal entity behind the EPC taking all the heat - just a bunch of > individuals trying to make a conference. This, in general, makes organising > the EPC a risky business on many levels. Not so risky nowadays, the risk was much higher when we didn't know how many visitors we could have. Now, we have a rather good idea, we have had two 'live' market studies. But this is another story, let's keep to the topic. > [...] > All of the above, imho, should lead us to the obvious conclusion: we need to > formalise the way the EuroPython Community organises itself. For various > reasons, we need the structure and strength that a formal entity can give > us. As Tom said : a formal entity is not the urgent point if it doesn't define the way of decision making in its bylaws. For example, now, we would have to decide if we need a formal organisation/association and if yes, which one (at least 3 kinds have been proposed). But how shall we decide on that first point ? Everybody runs and the first one to come back with any legal entity rules ? PBF has been created this way, almost the same way as we announced EPC2004 : quickly, after a few informal discussions, no real vote, ... The quickest on the ball has won. Will you do the same here ? I could also say that the formal entity exists : you know it, it's P3B. Just become members of P3B and everything is fine. We just have to rename it EPA if you want. (That's not my actual proposition, but that is one possible proposition too). So the point is : how shall we democratically decide what is democracy in a EP association. How shall we decide on the decision process without having a decision process defined ? Hackers love recursive games don't they ? > The only thing required to form an EPA based on the above, is to > announce a meeting, hold the meeting and elect a board, form the sig, > and presto. Perhaps that you'll also need the acceptance of your rules by that vaguely defined community. I also would like to ask that you (all) don't exclude too many people because : - they are on hollidays for the moment - they are working hard and don't follow the mailing-list - they have no time to keep chatting - they haven't read all Magnus's mails yet ;-) - they are not very fluent with English and don't dare to step in the discussion - etc. English fluency, for example, is a tyranic rule we have to live with. I can remember some of you, Democrats, killing softly another guy who couldn't defend his point smartly enough because of the language knowledge (lack of ...). See how the Greeks are poorly represented in our european association. Happy those who are fluent enough, for the other ones : "Vae victis" (that's Latin). Conclusion : democracy is a difficult exercise. We'll have to find a real *consensus* for having a good start. I guess we aren't done with it before some time, but in the end, I'm glad our announce led to the discussion. Denis -- Denis FRERE P3B : Club Python(-Zope) Belge --------- http://www.p3b.org OS3B : Club Open-Software(-Linux) Carolo http://www.os3b.org Aragne : Python-Zope Solutions & Formations http://www.aragne.com From magnus@thinkware.se Tue Jul 8 12:15:02 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 13:15:02 +0200 Subject: Finding sponsors, was: Re: [EuroPython] Sharing EPC financial risk In-Reply-To: <00c901c3452e$6f62e470$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708012733.01ffe8b8@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708114738.01fd6b70@www.thinkware.se> At 10:53 2003-07-08 +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: >This all concludes to me that nobody in the python world really wants to pay >for things like this (see last 2 EPC years). If now at a sudden they would, >it would make me happy, but I would also have a bitter feeling. Python companies are growing, and the EPC is getting more important. Perhaps it will get more interesting to be a sponsor. Andy Robinson recently wrote: "I felt something very exciting this year: there is a real Python 'economy' in Europe, with real firms and customers making connections at EuroPython. First time for me was fun but not commercially justifiable; from now on I regard it as commercially essential." AB Strakt is now sponsoring other events, so there are obviously European Python companies with a marketing budget. See http://www.strakt.com/news.html Of course, it depends on what goals these companies have, what they are looking for, and what they think EPC can offer. For instance, Secret Labs is a Swedish company making money on Python development, but their main customers are organizations that work with meteorological information. Will they find their customers at EPC? Hardly... Would they benefit from visibility at EPC anyway? Maybe? Perhaps they need to help to see that... Strakt seems to view the public sector as a good source of customers for them. Will they find those customers at EPC? Perhaps not. On the other hand, there might well be other potential business partners there. Jacob and Laura obviously knows EPC very well, but for many companies it might take some kind of sales effort to mke them consider sponsoring the EPC. Of course, you can't put a lot of hours to convince a company to pay EUR 200...but maybe someone can formulate a decent way to sell these sponsorship ideas to others. Dario talked about finding sponsors, so I guess he has some experience of this. >Also see the Zope-Europe association, how hard it is form them to get some >company members. >This all sounds nice in theory, but in practice it doesn't. It's always possible to fail, that doesn't mean that the fundamental idea is flawed. Considering how often software development projects fail, it's easy to draw the conclusion that software development is in general a flawed concept. I doesn't work! We know this isn't true. It's quite possible to succeed in software development, and it's quite possible to fail. As professional software developers, we're typcally not qute as good at finding sponsors etc as we are at developing software. I guess we have to learn... Perhaps we need to think more about how sponsoring can create a value for the sponsors, and a little less about how we can get money. I think we will get money if we can provide a value. I'm not sure providing value means that sponsorships are in any way different than today, but I think we need to look at them from the sponsors perspective. What is the value for them? How can we convey that? Perhaps we can change some part of the EPC so that it gets better for both sponsors and visitors? -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From magnus@thinkware.se Tue Jul 8 16:35:03 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 17:35:03 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EPC as a PBF SIG In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030707232842.02047dc0@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708133647.02022d70@www.thinkware.se> At 06:43 2003-07-08 +0200, Dinu Gherman wrote: >You missed my point. I wasn't saying a legal body would not be use- >ful. I only said I can't see why an existing legal body, PBF/PSF... >would make any of its SIGs "more legal" than a more legal SIG w/o >the legal body around it, given that quite some of Nicolas' argu- >ments indicated a complete independance of the respected body and >SIG apart from things like a bank account. All legal entities besides the very smallest (such as one man companies) use some kind of limited delegation of rights. A SIG under the PBF is just like a design department at Ford Corporation. Of course it matters that they are part of a legal entity. They will be able to buy office supplies and get invoices ent to them etc. They will have a limited budget and clear rules deciding what they can buy on their own accord, and when they have to raise the issue to Ford management etc. They are not fully independant, but they have the means needed to handle their own day to day business dealings. I already wrote about delegation of rights, and it's in the PBF by-laws. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From dario@ita.chalmers.se Tue Jul 8 16:35:05 2003 From: dario@ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 17:35:05 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC as an EuroPython Association SIG References: <16b501c344f5$81eb8cc0$6500a8c0@WALTER> <20030708110721.GC17456@carolo.net> Message-ID: <176701c34566$814f8980$6500a8c0@WALTER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denis Frère" > Le Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 04:06:13AM +0200, Dario Lopez-Kästen pianota: > > (I'm adding these lines after I wrote the mail : though I'm answering to > Dario, this is not personal for him. Through Dario, I'm speaking to all > of you who feel concerned and answering to various previous mails). ok > > All of the above, imho, should lead us to the obvious conclusion: we need to > > formalise the way the EuroPython Community organises itself. For various > > reasons, we need the structure and strength that a formal entity can give > > us. > > As Tom said : a formal entity is not the urgent point if it doesn't > define the way of decision making in its bylaws. Have you actually read my proposal for bylaws? > > For example, now, we would have to decide if we need a formal > organisation/association and if yes, which one (at least 3 kinds have > been proposed). But how shall we decide on that first point ? > Everybody runs and the first one to come back with any legal entity > rules ? no, a good idea to do this would be to follow the procedure for gathering the General Assembly as outlined in the proposed bylaws... though I must say that what you are describing pretty much sums up the situation we have/are heading towards today, at least when it relates to EPC. > PBF has been created this way, almost the same way as we announced > EPC2004 : quickly, after a few informal discussions, no real vote, ... > The quickest on the ball has won. Will you do the same here ? actually, I am very curious at this statement: exactly what of what I said gave you that impression? > I could also say that the formal entity exists : you know it, it's P3B. > Just become members of P3B and everything is fine. We just have to > rename it EPA if you want. (That's not my actual proposition, but that > is one possible proposition too). if so, this would be a very good example of your own objection: "Everybody runs and the first one to come back with any legal entity rules", > > So the point is : how shall we democratically decide what is democracy > in a EP association. How shall we decide on the decision process without > having a decision process defined ? Hackers love recursive games don't > they ? porbably hackers do, but like I said above: just follow the procedure for gathering the General Assembly as outlined in the proposed bylaws. > > The only thing required to form an EPA based on the above, is to > > announce a meeting, hold the meeting and elect a board, form the sig, > > and presto. > > Perhaps that you'll also need the acceptance of your rules by that > vaguely defined community. again: just follow the procedure for gathering the General Assembly as outlined in the proposed bylaws. I ask again have you actually read them? > I also would like to ask that you (all) don't exclude too many people > because : > - they are on hollidays for the moment > - they are working hard and don't follow the mailing-list > - they have no time to keep chatting > - they haven't read all Magnus's mails yet ;-) > - they are not very fluent with English and don't dare to step in the > discussion > - etc. Good point. Lets follow the procedure outlined in the proposed, but with a wider time frame, so that everybody gets a chance to catch up on the mails. Even better, lets have a preparatory meeting first to see if there is enough interst in actually forming an EPA. If so, lets then make the the world know that we intend to form an EPA, decide on a date of the formation meeting in, for instance late august, so that all that are interested in forming the EPA have a fair chance of discussing the form, the bylaws, write proposals of bylaws changes, nomitea to the board, etc. Really, how hard can it be? > > English fluency, for example, is a tyranic rule we have to live with. > I can remember some of you, Democrats, killing softly another guy who > couldn't defend his point smartly enough because of the language > knowledge (lack of ...). See how the Greeks are poorly represented in > our european association. Happy those who are fluent enough, for the > other ones : "Vae victis" (that's Latin). Exactly the same can be said about any random language, say... French , though I suspect that it will be easier to find bi-lingual people, where one of the languages is english, outside the domain of the Frech-speaking parts of Europe. FYI, I am rally getting severly annoyed at what I percieve as insinuations that the very mentioning of the formation of an EPA is anti-democratic. WE didn't go astray and unilateraly decided where the next EPC would be held, who would be orgnasing it and then told the world about it, WE haven't unilateraly gone and consulted national lawyers regadring the formalisation of EPC. I mean, isn't the very fact that we are havign this discussion in the first place the *very sign* of a democratic process? > Conclusion : democracy is a difficult exercise. Damed right it is. QED. >We'll have to find a > real *consensus* for having a good start. I guess we aren't done with > it before some time, but in the end, I'm glad our announce led to the > discussion. of what? where the next EPC is to be held (aka the "important and pragmatic" thing to decide)? Or the actual discussion of a) how things are to be decided, by whom and by what authority, b) the formalisation of that deciding process? /dario From dario@ita.chalmers.se Tue Jul 8 16:35:54 2003 From: dario@ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 17:35:54 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC as an EuroPython Association SIG References: <16b501c344f5$81eb8cc0$6500a8c0@WALTER> <20030708110721.GC17456@carolo.net> Message-ID: <176801c34566$9e9b3b60$6500a8c0@WALTER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denis Frère" > Le Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 04:06:13AM +0200, Dario Lopez-Kästen pianota: > > (I'm adding these lines after I wrote the mail : though I'm answering to > Dario, this is not personal for him. Through Dario, I'm speaking to all > of you who feel concerned and answering to various previous mails). ok > > All of the above, imho, should lead us to the obvious conclusion: we need to > > formalise the way the EuroPython Community organises itself. For various > > reasons, we need the structure and strength that a formal entity can give > > us. > > As Tom said : a formal entity is not the urgent point if it doesn't > define the way of decision making in its bylaws. Have you actually read my proposal for bylaws? > > For example, now, we would have to decide if we need a formal > organisation/association and if yes, which one (at least 3 kinds have > been proposed). But how shall we decide on that first point ? > Everybody runs and the first one to come back with any legal entity > rules ? no, a good idea to do this would be to follow the procedure for gathering the General Assembly as outlined in the proposed bylaws... though I must say that what you are describing pretty much sums up the situation we have/are heading towards today, at least when it relates to EPC. > PBF has been created this way, almost the same way as we announced > EPC2004 : quickly, after a few informal discussions, no real vote, ... > The quickest on the ball has won. Will you do the same here ? actually, I am very curious at this statement: exactly what of what I said gave you that impression? > I could also say that the formal entity exists : you know it, it's P3B. > Just become members of P3B and everything is fine. We just have to > rename it EPA if you want. (That's not my actual proposition, but that > is one possible proposition too). if so, this would be a very good example of your own objection: "Everybody runs and the first one to come back with any legal entity rules", > > So the point is : how shall we democratically decide what is democracy > in a EP association. How shall we decide on the decision process without > having a decision process defined ? Hackers love recursive games don't > they ? porbably hackers do, but like I said above: just follow the procedure for gathering the General Assembly as outlined in the proposed bylaws. > > The only thing required to form an EPA based on the above, is to > > announce a meeting, hold the meeting and elect a board, form the sig, > > and presto. > > Perhaps that you'll also need the acceptance of your rules by that > vaguely defined community. again: just follow the procedure for gathering the General Assembly as outlined in the proposed bylaws. I ask again have you actually read them? > I also would like to ask that you (all) don't exclude too many people > because : > - they are on hollidays for the moment > - they are working hard and don't follow the mailing-list > - they have no time to keep chatting > - they haven't read all Magnus's mails yet ;-) > - they are not very fluent with English and don't dare to step in the > discussion > - etc. Good point. Lets follow the procedure outlined in the proposed, but with a wider time frame, so that everybody gets a chance to catch up on the mails. Even better, lets have a preparatory meeting first to see if there is enough interst in actually forming an EPA. If so, lets then make the the world know that we intend to form an EPA, decide on a date of the formation meeting in, for instance late august, so that all that are interested in forming the EPA have a fair chance of discussing the form, the bylaws, write proposals of bylaws changes, nomitea to the board, etc. Really, how hard can it be? > > English fluency, for example, is a tyranic rule we have to live with. > I can remember some of you, Democrats, killing softly another guy who > couldn't defend his point smartly enough because of the language > knowledge (lack of ...). See how the Greeks are poorly represented in > our european association. Happy those who are fluent enough, for the > other ones : "Vae victis" (that's Latin). Exactly the same can be said about any random language, say... French , though I suspect that it will be easier to find bi-lingual people, where one of the languages is english, outside the domain of the Frech-speaking parts of Europe. FYI, I am rally getting severly annoyed at what I percieve as insinuations that the very mentioning of the formation of an EPA is anti-democratic. WE didn't go astray and unilateraly decided where the next EPC would be held, who would be orgnasing it and then told the world about it, WE haven't unilateraly gone and consulted national lawyers regadring the formalisation of EPC. I mean, isn't the very fact that we are havign this discussion in the first place the *very sign* of a democratic process? > Conclusion : democracy is a difficult exercise. Damed right it is. QED. >We'll have to find a > real *consensus* for having a good start. I guess we aren't done with > it before some time, but in the end, I'm glad our announce led to the > discussion. of what? where the next EPC is to be held (aka the "important and pragmatic" thing to decide)? Or the actual discussion of a) how things are to be decided, by whom and by what authority, b) the formalisation of that deciding process? Like I said: How hard can it be? /dario From faassen@vet.uu.nl Tue Jul 8 17:16:25 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 18:16:25 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> Message-ID: <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> Tom Deprez wrote: > > I think this voting procedure needs to be worked so it's fair and not > > biased towards 'locals' who may often be motivated to vote for > > something nearby. I still think a membership system is > > still preferable, where members can vote. Conference attendees will > > become automatic members for the next N years, perhaps. Others can > > become a member for a moderate price. > > Mmm, I'm not in favor of a membership system. Look at the failure of > EuroZope. How many people did register them as a member? I know I did, > but I think there were only a few. I think the failure of EuroZope shouldn't be seen as proving this can't work. Things can be managed differently. And if only 10 people become member, then those 10 people get to vote, that's fine too. Though it would be fine if people who visit the conference automatically become members too. > Also, the donation setup at > EuroPython didn't gave lot's of result, while it also clearly states > that the donations will be used for the future of EuroPython. The finances of EuroPython are currently dramatically untransparent. :) > All this > gives me the idea that payed memberships just don't work. > However, the idea of making conference attendees a member is a nice > idea. That could be possible. The paid membership is just to: * allow people to become member even if they haven't visited a conference yet. * stop people from being able to vote without having done *anything*. Regards, Martijn From tom@aragne.com Tue Jul 8 17:20:31 2003 From: tom@aragne.com (Tom Deprez) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 18:20:31 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <01dc01c3456c$da6e92d0$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> > The finances of EuroPython are currently dramatically untransparent. > :) If you want information on that, ask Denis about it, since I never did or will do any finances, so I can't give it to you. I'm sure Denis will be able to give everybody a clean overview of the balance of the conference. Regards, T. From faassen@vet.uu.nl Tue Jul 8 18:01:14 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 19:01:14 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC as an EuroPython Association SIG In-Reply-To: <20030708110721.GC17456@carolo.net> References: <16b501c344f5$81eb8cc0$6500a8c0@WALTER> <20030708110721.GC17456@carolo.net> Message-ID: <20030708170114.GD832@vet.uu.nl> Denis Fr=E8re wrote: [problems with setting up an association] > Conclusion : democracy is a difficult exercise. We'll have to find a > real *consensus* for having a good start. I guess we aren't done with > it before some time, but in the end, I'm glad our announce led to the > discussion. Hopefully we're working towards such a consensus. Already we are doing tremendously much better at communicating and consensus building than last week, so we're making good progress. Anything transparent, even a dictatorship, is better than a situation where nobody really knows where responsibility is. I've = always wished that weren't the case, but I noticed that in situations where responsibility is unclear saying "just get along and use your common sens= e" unfortunately was not enough, and people *asked* for clearer rules. Now I seem to be one of those people asking it myself. I'm a disgrace among anarchists. :) Mind I'm not proposing a dictatorship. A foundation with clear rules on how to become a member and how people become decisionmakers (with final decisions on who is on the board to the membership, and other things like conference location as well) is flexible and transparent enough though. If later on changes are necessary the mechanisms are there. Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Tue Jul 8 18:15:26 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 19:15:26 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <20030708082635.49574.qmail@web60001.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030707193216.7119.14741.Mailman@mail.python.org> <20030708082635.49574.qmail@web60001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030708171525.GE832@vet.uu.nl> Tim Couper wrote: > I wonder, though, whether the propogation of Python > would be better/just as well served at this time by > focussing on & encouraging national/regional groups. > Our experience with the UK group is most encouraging. > It seems to me, for example, that there would be more > French participation in the python community (in the > sense of nembers attending conferences) if there was a > python France conference. In fact such a thing existed/exists associated with the Free Software meeting in, Bourdeoux, I think. There was an event in 2001 and I think also in 2002, though the latter competed with EuroPython. Perhaps it's not exactly the same thing, as it was more international in focus than just France. (note that the competition with EuroPython was friendly; I talked to Marc Poinot in advance). In Germany there's DZUG which has organized several events. Not Python but Zope, but hey, we're in the same community. :) > However national/regional conferences aren't as large > as continental, and it does require there to be a > critical mass of interested players. Sounds to me like > there is such a critical mass in Sweden, so how about > a python Scandanavia conference? This is all well and good, but we shouldn't dilute EuroPython itself. Both you and Andy have suggested this, but to me it sounds like: Well, why don't you go off and organize your own thing and leave us alone? It would be great too, a local event! They're *not* proposing hold a scandinavean event, they've proposed to organize EuroPython. Let's think about that. I'm sure they will also organize a local event if they're so minded. Mind, I'm sure that wasn't your and Andy's intent, and I agree local events are very useful, and perhaps eventually we can do something like that under the EuroPython flag as well, but right now the EuroPython flag needs to find a solid base for its flagpole. Regards, Martijn From magnus@thinkware.se Tue Jul 8 18:21:37 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 19:21:37 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <01dc01c3456c$da6e92d0$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708192057.02051478@www.thinkware.se> At 18:20 2003-07-08 +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: >I'm sure Denis will be able to give everybody a clean overview of the >balance of the conference. I'm sure this is good background information for whoever will arrange in 2004, 2005 or whatever... -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From faassen@vet.uu.nl Tue Jul 8 18:16:48 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 19:16:48 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Two EPC in 2004? :) In-Reply-To: References: <20030707172234.GW22999@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <20030708171648.GF832@vet.uu.nl> Dinu Gherman wrote: > Well well, I'd also like to have only one good newspaper to read > exactly what I'm interested in and only one good TV programme to > broadcast the movies I like most, etc. Fact is, it ain't gonna > happen anytime, soon... :-/ Two good European Python Conferences in one year is not going to happen anytime soon either. :) Let's focus on the one we have. Regards, Martijn From magnus@thinkware.se Tue Jul 8 18:22:07 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 19:22:07 +0200 Subject: Why EPC org. was: Re: [EuroPython] EPC as an EuroPython Association SIG In-Reply-To: <20030708110721.GC17456@carolo.net> References: <16b501c344f5$81eb8cc0$6500a8c0@WALTER> <16b501c344f5$81eb8cc0$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030708132350.0202e4a0@www.thinkware.se> At 13:07 2003-07-08 +0200, Denis Fr=E8re wrote: >For example, now, we would have to decide if we need a formal >organisation/association and if yes, which one (at least 3 kinds have >been proposed). But how shall we decide on that first point ? >Everybody runs and the first one to come back with any legal entity >rules ? First of all we must know what our goals are! Why do we want to formulate EPC? What's wrong with running it like today? Perhaps we can agree on some answer to that? Deciding how to organize ourself before we know why is certainly premature optimization! Wow! I was short this time! :) -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language=20 From faassen@vet.uu.nl Tue Jul 8 18:25:07 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 19:25:07 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly? In-Reply-To: <20030707163431.GU22999@logilab.fr> References: <20030703213637.GA12161@vet.uu.nl> <20030703215926.GA12352@vet.uu.nl> <20030704013739.GH27467@carolo.net> <3F053BD5.60703@lemburg.com> <200307041203.h64C3qOs021784@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20030704153852.02016e30@www.thinkware.se> <20030707122253.GC22999@logilab.fr> <20030707161714.GA27068@vet.uu.nl> <20030707163431.GU22999@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <20030708172507.GG832@vet.uu.nl> Nicolas Chauvat wrote: > On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 06:17:14PM +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: > > Nicolas Chauvat wrote: > > > On Fri, Jul 04, 2003 at 04:07:17PM +0200, Magnus Lyck=E5 wrote: > > > > I had a thought that it might be practical to make EuroPython > > > > into a SIG under the Python Business Foundation. > > >=20 > > > That's a possible option. What do people on this list think about t= his? > >=20 > > To rattle off some possible objections to this: > > > > One possible objection to PBF is that it is at least in its name > > business oriented, which may not sit well with institutions and > > random hackers. >=20 > But then when I claim that EuroPython is not a business oriented event > and should acknowledge its "ahckers talk to hackers" nature, people > (including you) tell me that this is false and good business contacts > were made at EP02 and 03... I never said we should not acknowledge 'hackers talks to hackers' for EuroPython, I've always been adamant not to make this a business only event. And yes, good business contacts were made. That's the point. One of the strengths of EuroPython in my mind is=20 that it is a vehicle for both -- business and hackers. Since I myself and you as well are entrepreneur/hackers EuroPython is perfect for us. I suspect this is the case for a large fraction of the audience; I th= ink disproportionally many Python hackers in Europe are also entrepreneurs. Certainly I saw far more of them at EuroPython than I did at PyCon. Note that the PBF is not a bad organization for this either, but I was just worrying it might put off some of the other people who are *not* in business but at some university, for instance. [snip] > > Another possible objection is that Zope has another > > organizational structure, and EuroPython is also a large Zope event. >=20 > I hardly see the point, unless you think it is worth reviving the > "should not we name it EuroPythonZope conference?" thread that took > place on this mailing list a year and a half ago. No, the point is that there are Zope organizations, such as Zope Europe. How do the PBF and Zope Europe work together would for instance be a question. [snip] > Does that answer enough of your questions to make a PBF SIG appear like > a valid solution ? I've always said it was a possible solution, I'm just listing possible objections. I'm just not sure yet, and I guess I would need to study the bylaws, the existing organization, and think some more to decide for myse= lf. Regards, Martijn From denis@aragne.com Tue Jul 8 18:29:52 2003 From: denis@aragne.com (Denis =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E8re?=) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 19:29:52 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC as an EuroPython Association SIG In-Reply-To: <176701c34566$814f8980$6500a8c0@WALTER> References: <16b501c344f5$81eb8cc0$6500a8c0@WALTER> <20030708110721.GC17456@carolo.net> <176701c34566$814f8980$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <20030708172952.GA20761@carolo.net> Le Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 05:35:05PM +0200, Dario Lopez-Kästen pianota: > > > > As Tom said : a formal entity is not the urgent point if it doesn't > > define the way of decision making in its bylaws. > > Have you actually read my proposal for bylaws? Not as attentively as I should have. Sorry, I'm still at work. > > I could also say that the formal entity exists : you know it, it's P3B. > > Just become members of P3B and everything is fine. We just have to > > rename it EPA if you want. (That's not my actual proposition, but that > > is one possible proposition too). > > if so, this would be a very good example of your own objection: "Everybody > runs and the first one to come back with any legal entity rules", No, here it's a de facto situation, not a new one. Moreover I wrote that it was not my meaning. > FYI, I am rally getting severly annoyed at what I percieve as insinuations > that the very mentioning of the formation of an EPA is anti-democratic. I don't say so. I just say : look out to not change one non­democratic situation to another one. > WE didn't go astray and unilateraly decided where the next EPC would be > held, Nor did I. We much discussed on place. As a matter of fact, Martijn missed it, but most of the "staff" knew about it and explained their point of view. That's not enough to be perfect, but I can't stand the word 'unilateraly', that's unfair and mean. > WE haven't unilateraly gone and consulted national lawyers regadring the > formalisation of EPC. So, now I'll be damned because I asked for a professional *advise* ! :-( If I did so, it's well because I've been believing since the beginning that an EPA is needed. > I mean, isn't the very fact that we are havign this discussion in the first > place the *very sign* of a democratic process? That's right. All this discussion is a good thing. I'm also glad to hear from you. We didn't meet since the last Berlin Zope BBQ. Just keep positive. I'm not the devil. I have no bad intentions. I dare think that I don't deserve such flames. > > [...] but in the end, I'm glad our announce led to the discussion. > > of what? > > where the next EPC is to be held (aka the "important and pragmatic" thing to > decide)? > > Or the actual discussion of a) how things are to be decided, by whom and by > what authority, b) the formalisation of that deciding process? I was essentially thinking to the last part of your alternative, both point a and b. Now, I have to leave you for the whole evening : today is my wife's birthday. See you soon. Kind regards, Denis -- Denis FRERE P3B : Club Python(-Zope) Belge --------- http://www.p3b.org OS3B : Club Open-Software(-Linux) Carolo http://www.os3b.org Aragne : Python-Zope Solutions & Formations http://www.aragne.com From dario@ita.chalmers.se Tue Jul 8 18:47:03 2003 From: dario@ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 19:47:03 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC as an EuroPython Association SIG References: <16b501c344f5$81eb8cc0$6500a8c0@WALTER> <20030708110721.GC17456@carolo.net> <176701c34566$814f8980$6500a8c0@WALTER> <20030708172952.GA20761@carolo.net> Message-ID: <179501c34578$f127df20$6500a8c0@WALTER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denis Frère" > > > WE haven't unilateraly gone and consulted national lawyers regadring the > > formalisation of EPC. > > So, now I'll be damned because I asked for a professional *advise* ! :-( > If I did so, it's well because I've been believing since the beginning > that an EPA is needed. ... > > Just keep positive. I'm not the devil. I have no bad intentions. I dare > think that I don't deserve such flames. You are right, you don't deserve this and I sincerely apologise (note to self: never send mails when angry about something). /dario From Tom Deprez" <170001c34529$731ef450$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <01f301c34582$ca5aa8f0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote: > I can help out too. I need to get my hands dirty with Plone anyway :-) > > Is there a plan? Not yet. Nicolas has started on something. For the rest I'm planning to mimic the design. What I really would like is that the site can be used for all years to come. Nicolas, is there a reason why you used 2004 as an id ? Would it be possible to make one root plone and give the objects (eg news, talks, sessions ...) a property of year? Regards, Tom. From gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de Tue Jul 8 20:13:11 2003 From: gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:13:11 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <20030708171525.GE832@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <376AC45E-B178-11D7-99E6-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> Martijn Faassen: > Mind, I'm sure that wasn't your and Andy's intent, and I agree > local events are very useful, and perhaps eventually we can > do something like that under the EuroPython flag as well, but > right now the EuroPython flag needs to find a solid base for its > flagpole. As I told Nicolas via private email already, we should not be think- ing along the poles Europen vs. local. Nobody ever defined what local should mean? National, regional, municipal? Did EPC not happen in a local city? It did! I really start getting the impression that there are be more organi- sers than attendees for the next "big thing" (tm) event. And quite frankly, I don't care what a new team wants to call it, Pan-European, Old World, Northern Hemisphere or-whatever-else Python Assembly is fine to me. But it is hard for me to understand why people here are so scared of having more than one big event? Instead of talking the only (success- ful) one we had to death, why can't we just have a tiny bit of com- petition and have more than one great event?? After all, isn't Paul Everit always talking us into making Python ten times bigger? Wasn't Guido saying there can never be enough Python books? Why should one Python Conference for 350 million Eu- ropeans per year be enough?? Those who've never organised a big Python conference: go ahead and do it! I'll be glad to be there! So far, I have seen that Denis and Tom (and a big rest of a group of people who are mostly silent on this list) were able to make it happen twice, which is a good indi- cator to me for a Hattrick success next year! Taking-a-rest-for-a-while-from-this-list'ly, Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman ...................................................................... "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something." (Plato) From dario@ita.chalmers.se Tue Jul 8 22:55:50 2003 From: dario@ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 23:55:50 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython website References: <01bc01c344bf$6d4449a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <170001c34529$731ef450$6500a8c0@WALTER> <01f301c34582$ca5aa8f0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> Message-ID: <17a801c3459b$b206e6b0$6500a8c0@WALTER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Deprez" > > Not yet. > > Nicolas has started on something. > For the rest I'm planning to mimic the design. > > What I really would like is that the site can be used for all years to > come. ok, I am working on that. > > Nicolas, is there a reason why you used 2004 as an id ? > Would it be possible to make one root plone and give the objects (eg > news, talks, sessions ...) a property of year? uh... it seems I just (accidentally actually) changed the ID from 2004 to epc. /dario From tismer@tismer.com Wed Jul 9 02:52:42 2003 From: tismer@tismer.com (Christian Tismer) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 03:52:42 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Two EPC in 2004? :) In-Reply-To: <20030708171648.GF832@vet.uu.nl> References: <20030707172234.GW22999@logilab.fr> <20030708171648.GF832@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <3F0B756A.9090606@tismer.com> Martijn Faassen wrote: > Dinu Gherman wrote: > >>Well well, I'd also like to have only one good newspaper to read >>exactly what I'm interested in and only one good TV programme to >>broadcast the movies I like most, etc. Fact is, it ain't gonna >>happen anytime, soon... :-/ > > > Two good European Python Conferences in one year is not going to > happen anytime soon either. :) Let's focus on the one we have. Dear Martijn, I read you claiming such absolute, nobody-try-to-contradict-me style statements, not for the first time during the last week's messages. This is really quite new to me. Thought I knew you. Anyway, it would be quite encouraging to prove you wrong. Just say it again. You know how the "it's impossible" thing works with me. heh, what's so bad about it? cheers -- chris -- Christian Tismer :^) Mission Impossible 5oftware : Have a break! Take a ride on Python's Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a : *Starship* http://starship.python.net/ 14109 Berlin : PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/ work +49 30 89 09 53 34 home +49 30 802 86 56 pager +49 173 24 18 776 PGP 0x57F3BF04 9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619 305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04 whom do you want to sponsor today? http://www.stackless.com/ From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Wed Jul 9 09:04:14 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 10:04:14 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython website In-Reply-To: <01f301c34582$ca5aa8f0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> References: <01bc01c344bf$6d4449a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <170001c34529$731ef450$6500a8c0@WALTER> <01f301c34582$ca5aa8f0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> Message-ID: <20030709080414.GG12986@logilab.fr> On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 08:57:31PM +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: > Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote: > > I can help out too. I need to get my hands dirty with Plone anyway :-) > > > > Is there a plan? > > Not yet. > > Nicolas has started on something. > For the rest I'm planning to mimic the design. > > What I really would like is that the site can be used for all years to > come. > > Nicolas, is there a reason why you used 2004 as an id ? that's what I came up with... it could be changed. > Would it be possible to make one root plone and give the objects (eg > news, talks, sessions ...) a property of year? It would. I suggest we write down some of our requirements for the web site, then implement them. I've started a todo list, can we build on that ? -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Wed Jul 9 09:00:20 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 10:00:20 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <376AC45E-B178-11D7-99E6-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> References: <20030708171525.GE832@vet.uu.nl> <376AC45E-B178-11D7-99E6-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: <20030709080020.GE12986@logilab.fr> On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 09:13:11PM +0200, Dinu Gherman wrote: > But it is hard for me to understand why people here are so scared of > having more than one big event? Instead of talking the only (success- > ful) one we had to death, why can't we just have a tiny bit of com- > petition and have more than one great event?? As I said in private e-mail: because it does not work that way. If their is competition, one of the two will kill the other one. In the worst case, both will die. The community *is* to small to reach critical mass for two events. The winner will probably want to be called EuroPython or Pan-European Python or whatever, but we'll be back to step one: a single event. What we have been saying is "instead of competition, we want cooperation". This does not exclude the possibility of having a second event when the community will be bigger, but at the moment, this would be a waste of the fragile things we have built with EP02 and EP03. I'm starting to think that it boils down to more fundamental opinions and views on life... doesn't it? -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Wed Jul 9 08:49:20 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 09:49:20 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC as an EuroPython Association SIG In-Reply-To: <176701c34566$814f8980$6500a8c0@WALTER> References: <16b501c344f5$81eb8cc0$6500a8c0@WALTER> <20030708110721.GC17456@carolo.net> <176701c34566$814f8980$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <20030709074920.GB12986@logilab.fr> On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 05:35:05PM +0200, Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote: > I mean, isn't the very fact that we are havign this discussion in the first > place the *very sign* of a democratic process? Yes. But in order to make it look more like an ideal (I did not say current) democracy than like a roman republic, we'll have to make sure that the ones that talk are not the only ones who decide. And as any community, we'll need to decide on a rule that defines who is in and wsho is out. So here is an important question: who is part of our "demos" in our case ? -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Wed Jul 9 08:52:56 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 09:52:56 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <20030709075256.GD12986@logilab.fr> On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 06:16:25PM +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: > it would be fine if people who visit the conference automatically > become members too. > > The paid membership is just to: > > * allow people to become member even if they haven't visited a > conference yet. > > * stop people from being able to vote without having done *anything*. Sounds like valid points... -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From tom@aragne.com Wed Jul 9 09:25:58 2003 From: tom@aragne.com (Tom Deprez) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 10:25:58 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython website References: <01bc01c344bf$6d4449a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <170001c34529$731ef450$6500a8c0@WALTER> <01f301c34582$ca5aa8f0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030709080414.GG12986@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <007401c345f3$b9a0d2c0$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> > I suggest we write down some of our requirements for the web site, > then implement them. I've started a todo list, can we build on that ? Yup. Ok. T. From dario@ita.chalmers.se Wed Jul 9 09:26:23 2003 From: dario@ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 10:26:23 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython website References: <01bc01c344bf$6d4449a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <170001c34529$731ef450$6500a8c0@WALTER> <01f301c34582$ca5aa8f0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030709080414.GG12986@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <180701c345f3$c8641ec0$6500a8c0@WALTER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolas Chauvat" To: "Tom Deprez" Cc: "Dario Lopez-Kästen" ; ; Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 10:04 AM Subject: Re: [EuroPython] EuroPython website > On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 08:57:31PM +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: > > Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote: > > > I can help out too. I need to get my hands dirty with Plone anyway :-) > > > > > > Is there a plan? > > > > Not yet. > > > > Nicolas has started on something. > > For the rest I'm planning to mimic the design. > > > > What I really would like is that the site can be used for all years to > > come. > > > > Nicolas, is there a reason why you used 2004 as an id ? > > that's what I came up with... it could be changed. I allready did that inadvertedly yesterday, when I was trying the site, it is now called "epc" and the new url is http://europython-develop.zope.nl/epc/ > > > Would it be possible to make one root plone and give the objects (eg > > news, talks, sessions ...) a property of year? > > It would. I started out doing this yesterday night as well, trying to create folders on the site, that would reflect "site structure" that cen be used w/o too much effort coming years. It is just ideas I had in my head, so I am not sure if they will work for what we edn up in the end. I made a new logo.jpg as well, by erasing the "Conference 2003" text from the old logo and adding text to make it abit bigger (with the logo only, there was too much whitespace left). This can of course be changed, it is part of the testing I did yesterday. I also started om a mockup of "About EPC" texts which I think is missing from the current EuroPython site. It would be nice if we had some real texts there later on. > > I suggest we write down some of our requirements for the web site, then > implement them. I've started a todo list, can we build on that ? Yes, of course. I'll write down my ideas there. /darui From dario@ita.chalmers.se Wed Jul 9 09:49:09 2003 From: dario@ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 10:49:09 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython website References: <01bc01c344bf$6d4449a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <170001c34529$731ef450$6500a8c0@WALTER> <01f301c34582$ca5aa8f0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030709080414.GG12986@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <180b01c345f6$f6362200$6500a8c0@WALTER> Hello again. I also created a document id:log, title:Activity Log, that we can use to keep track of changes to the website. Cheers, /dario From gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de Wed Jul 9 10:54:40 2003 From: gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:54:40 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: [Pyobjc-dev] A question of concience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5B9DD94C-B1F3-11D7-99E6-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> Just van Rossum: > Ronald Oussoren wrote: > >> There is one problem with this change: backward compatibility. If >> we'd apply this change, we might break code that currently uses >> methods like getNumberOfRows:columns:. The current users might also >> use code that wouldn't break, like this: >> rows, cols = obj.getNumberOfRows_columns_()[1:] >> >> I'd rather not break backward compatibility, but this change would >> increase the useability of PyObjC. Any opinions? > > +1 on the breakage. Hey, we're only at 1.0b1 ;-) The fact we didn't > hear > complains about this before seems to indicate these kinds of methods > aren't being used much yet. In fact, for RegexPlor I'm using the following without even having run into getNumberOfRows_columns_: cols = mat.numberOfColumns() rows = mat.numberOfRows() As long as everything is nicely documented: go ahead! Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman ...................................................................... "I hope we get to the bottom of the answer. It's what I'm interested to know." (George W. Bush, 26 Apr. 2000) From gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de Wed Jul 9 10:59:40 2003 From: gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:59:40 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: [Pyobjc-dev] A question of concience In-Reply-To: <5B9DD94C-B1F3-11D7-99E6-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: <0E93F000-B1F4-11D7-99E6-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> Sorry folks, wrong list... need to swap this one more entirely out of my main memory...! ;-) Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman ...................................................................... "We spent a lot of time talking about Africa, as we should. Africa is a nation that suffers from incredible disease." (George W. Bush, 14 Jun. 2001) From mwh@python.net Wed Jul 9 12:15:46 2003 From: mwh@python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 12:15:46 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <20030709075256.GD12986@logilab.fr> ("Nicolas Chauvat"'s message of "Wed, 9 Jul 2003 09:52:56 +0200") References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> <20030709075256.GD12986@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <2mel10lzml.fsf@starship.python.net> "Nicolas Chauvat" writes: > On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 06:16:25PM +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: >> it would be fine if people who visit the conference automatically >> become members too. >> >> The paid membership is just to: >> >> * allow people to become member even if they haven't visited a >> conference yet. >> >> * stop people from being able to vote without having done *anything*. > > Sounds like valid points... Certainly. We could also count the membership fee as a partial payment for the conference, I guess. Cheers, M. -- Slim Shady is fed up with your shit, and he's going to kill you. -- Eminem, "Public Service Announcement 2000" From Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de Tue Jul 8 10:12:05 2003 From: Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de (Andrew Smart) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:12:05 +0200 Subject: AW: [EuroPython] EPC organisational structure In-Reply-To: <002d01c3452f$0ee4f010$0100a8c0@Bonn.Thiel.DE> Message-ID: SGksDQoNCnVwZGF0ZWQgbGlua3MgdG8gRUVJRyAvIEVXSVY6DQoNCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cucmV2ZW51 ZS5pZS9wZGYvcGFydDQzLnBkZg0KDQpodHRwOi8vd3d3LmJjZW50cmFsLmNvLnVrL21hcmtldGlu Zy9hYnJvYWQvZXVmYXEvV2hhdF9BcmVfRWVpZ3MuYXNwDQoNCkJvdGggYXJlIGVuZ2xpc2guDQoN CkFuZHJldw0K From tim@2wave.net Wed Jul 9 13:52:13 2003 From: tim@2wave.net (=?iso-8859-1?q?Tim=20Couper?=) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 13:52:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <20030708171525.GE832@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <20030709125213.39846.qmail@web60006.mail.yahoo.com> --- Martijn Faassen wrote: > This is all well and good, but we shouldn't dilute > EuroPython > itself. Both you and Andy have suggested this, but > to me it sounds > like: > > Well, why don't you go off and organize your own > thing and leave us > alone? It would be great too, a local event! > I'm sorry if it sounded like that. It was not my intent whatsoever. We DO need a European pyevent, (and I'll support it wherever it is!).I was partially responding to the discussion about whether we should have 2 such events per annum, and at the same time just stirring up some thoughts about what each of us can do regionally to grow the community. However, I recognise that discussing this issue in the Europython group may be the wrong place. Sorry for any offence caused. > They're *not* proposing hold a scandinavean event, > they've proposed > to organize EuroPython. Let's think about that. I'm > sure they > will also organize a local event if they're so > minded. > Yep > Mind, I'm sure that wasn't your and Andy's intent, > and I agree > local events are very useful, and perhaps eventually > we can > do something like that under the EuroPython flag as > well, but > right now the EuroPython flag needs to find a solid > base for its > flagpole. > Tim __________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html From andy@reportlab.com Wed Jul 9 17:17:06 2003 From: andy@reportlab.com (Andy Robinson) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 17:17:06 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Sharing EPC financial risk In-Reply-To: <172301c34533$4f917fd0$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: > BTW, did we ask companies like IBM to sponsor an EPC? Any hardware > companies, like Dell, Compaq or HP? We could ride on the Linux bandwagon and > get sponsorship that way... This is a good suggestion and since OSCON has most of these exhibiting and speaking, I will try it out on a few of them today and tomorrow.... - Andy From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Wed Jul 9 17:34:39 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 18:34:39 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <2mel10lzml.fsf@starship.python.net> References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> <20030709075256.GD12986@logilab.fr> <2mel10lzml.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <20030709163439.GB16116@logilab.fr> On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 12:15:46PM +0100, Michael Hudson wrote: > "Nicolas Chauvat" writes: > > > On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 06:16:25PM +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: > >> it would be fine if people who visit the conference automatically > >> become members too. > >> > >> The paid membership is just to: > >> > >> * allow people to become member even if they haven't visited a > >> conference yet. > >> > >> * stop people from being able to vote without having done *anything*. > > > > Sounds like valid points... > > Certainly. We could also count the membership fee as a partial > payment for the conference, I guess. even better. Please someone summarize all these things before they get lot in the mail flood. -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From faassen@vet.uu.nl Wed Jul 9 17:58:25 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 18:58:25 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <376AC45E-B178-11D7-99E6-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> References: <20030708171525.GE832@vet.uu.nl> <376AC45E-B178-11D7-99E6-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: <20030709165825.GA6377@vet.uu.nl> Dinu Gherman wrote: > But it is hard for me to understand why people here are so scared of > having more than one big event? Instead of talking the only (success- > ful) one we had to death, why can't we just have a tiny bit of com- > petition and have more than one great event?? No, we cannot. We do not have the resources. We really really don't. We just manage to make EuroPython work as a conference barely scraping by with half an organisation. We're not *ready* to have multiple ones that are competing. Note (referring to what you say later in your mail) is that *I* have helped to organize a Python conference twice now. I think I know what I am talking about. > After all, isn't Paul Everit always talking us into making Python > ten times bigger? Wasn't Guido saying there can never be enough > Python books? Why should one Python Conference for 350 million Eu- > ropeans per year be enough?? Paul is talking about making Zope 10 times bigger, not Python. I'm sure we would like multiple conferences, but let's not use the possibility of multiple events as an *excuse* to say "Hey, you alternate location proposal people, hey what, you can do a local conference too, you don't *have* to offer an alternate proposal!". And is there another reason to discuss this at this point? People who want to organize some other conference will do so, witness the case of Python-UK. The US has 1.5 Python conferences currently -- PyCon, which got 200 people there this year, and OSCON, which is hard to estimate as Python is an appendage to a larger event. The US has at least a tradition of Python conferences, we're now thinking about conference #3 for Europe. With Python-UK in fact I think this year we are more or less equivalent to the US in this amount of activity. I think we've come a long way but to claim we can *double* this any time soon is rather optimistic! > Those who've never organised a big Python conference: go ahead and > do it! I'll be glad to be there! So far, I have seen that Denis and > Tom (and a big rest of a group of people who are mostly silent on > this list) were able to make it happen twice, which is a good indi- > cator to me for a Hattrick success next year! This is an unfair summary of what happened in 2002 and 2003. I will skip over the things I am to credit for. Anyway, after the whole EuroPython process got started up in 2001, a bunch of us (Denis, Tom, many P3B people, myself, Joachim Schmidt and others) had a rl meeting in Charleroi in december of 2001. MAL helped a lot with organizing the conference closer to the target. This year we got slightly more organized and got an issue tracker as well as an irc channel, as well as a better management system on the website. Many of us were on the irc channel for daily meetings. Track chairs interacted with the speakers by email and through the website. It's all very fine to credit Tom and Denis where credit is due, and truly they deserve a lot of credit. I am getting rather frustrated however that no credit seems to be assigned to anyone else (yes, including myself). Without quite a few other people the conference in 2002 and 2003 the conference would not have been possible. Regards, Martijn From magnus@thinkware.se Wed Jul 9 18:25:36 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:25:36 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Sharing EPC financial risk In-Reply-To: References: <172301c34533$4f917fd0$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030709190501.073fee70@www.thinkware.se> At 17:17 2003-07-09 +0100, Andy Robinson wrote: > > BTW, did we ask companies like IBM to sponsor an EPC? Any hardware > > companies, like Dell, Compaq or HP? We could ride on the Linux bandwagon >and > > get sponsorship that way... > >This is a good suggestion and since OSCON has most of these >exhibiting and speaking, I will try it out on a few of them >today and tomorrow.... Great! Considering how much Python stuff IBM has on its web site (in DeveloperWorks and AlphaWorks), it seem likely that they would be interested. (I got 289 hits for Python at IBM DeveloperWorks.) HP has also shown interest in Python, for instance with sourceforge.net/projects/pysol/ (but that seems to be fairly dead...) -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From faassen@vet.uu.nl Wed Jul 9 18:30:43 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:30:43 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <01dc01c3456c$da6e92d0$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> <01dc01c3456c$da6e92d0$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> Message-ID: <20030709173043.GC6377@vet.uu.nl> Tom Deprez wrote: > > The finances of EuroPython are currently dramatically untransparent. > > :) > > If you want information on that, ask Denis about it, since I never did or > will do any finances, so I can't give it to you. > I'm sure Denis will be able to give everybody a clean overview of the > balance of the conference. I suppose it might be better than than I thought as it would be in the books of the P3B. Still as transparancy should be clearer than 'Mail Denis'. I guess the statutes of P3B are online somewhere in French? Anyway, the current state is what it is, and P3B of course carried a lot of the risk too, so fair's fair. I just hope we can move to a clearer system where any member of the EuroPython organization can have an overview if he or she so desires. Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Wed Jul 9 18:38:56 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:38:56 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <20030709125213.39846.qmail@web60006.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030708171525.GE832@vet.uu.nl> <20030709125213.39846.qmail@web60006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030709173856.GD6377@vet.uu.nl> Tim Couper wrote: > I was partially > responding to the discussion about whether we should > have 2 such events per annum, and at the same time > just stirring up some thoughts about what each of us > can do regionally to grow the community. However, I > recognise that discussing this issue in the Europython > group may be the wrong place. It *is* probably the right place, but perhaps not the right time. I *hope* the EuroPython organization can grow into something that can support multiple Python related events in Europe. This could be local events, or events with a different focus (participation in trade shows), or sprints, or maybe even eventually multiple bigger conferences per year. Right now I am of the opinion however that we should first get our bases in order before we can branch out. This is why I respond to the whole discussion of multiple events as rather premature at this point, and also unfortunate, as it distracts attention from what I think are the real problems at hand now. But yes, of course there are of course a lot of possibilities and opportunities for EuroPython. Regards, Martijn From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Wed Jul 9 19:00:43 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 20:00:43 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <20030709173856.GD6377@vet.uu.nl> References: <20030708171525.GE832@vet.uu.nl> <20030709125213.39846.qmail@web60006.mail.yahoo.com> <20030709173856.GD6377@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <20030709180042.GG16116@logilab.fr> On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 07:38:56PM +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: > I *hope* the EuroPython organization can grow into something that > can support multiple Python related events in Europe. This could be > local events, or events with a different focus (participation > in trade shows), or sprints, or maybe even eventually multiple > bigger conferences per year. Which is also a goal of the PBF... If we agree that duplicating work on european-wide conferences would be bad, do we really want to duplicate work in european-wide associations ? If the general feeling is that the PBF belongs to a small group of people and is not open enough, that's very sad, but as a secretary of the board, I'd rather resign, have everyone interested in promoting Python and organizing conferences join and then elect a new board. Remember that even if a good number of us are a mix between technical people and entrepreneurs, this does not mean that we have six clones working with us. One can only do his share. Why would we lose time and energy having ten different official bodies? One for Zope, one for Python, one for conferences, one for BBQs... I thought the goal was to join forces? Even if we were to join forces, we would still be ridiculously small and inefficient compared to the professionals doing marketing for big entities like IBM, MS, Sun, etc. The bigs players are the ones shaping the market. If we want to grow our share a bit, I do not think we can afford too much division. There is a large overlap between the different efforts trying to promote Python and at the moment, I can only see very few organisation of these efforts. If we can do it for software, I see no reason why we could not do it for promoting Python! -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From Tom Deprez" <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> <01dc01c3456c$da6e92d0$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <20030709173043.GC6377@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <010101c34648$058815a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> > > If you want information on that, ask Denis about it, since I never did or > > will do any finances, so I can't give it to you. > > I'm sure Denis will be able to give everybody a clean overview of the > > balance of the conference. > > I suppose it might be better than than I thought as it would be in the > books of the P3B. Still as transparancy should be clearer than > 'Mail Denis'. I guess the statutes of P3B are online somewhere in > French? > > Anyway, the current state is what it is, and P3B of course carried > a lot of the risk too, so fair's fair. I just hope we can move > to a clearer system where any member of the EuroPython organization can have > an overview if he or she so desires. So you would like to have the balance on eg a website? Interesting idea. But I've seen nowhere a conference which does that. Also PBF doesn't do that. What is the problem with the fact that somebody -when he/she's interested- just mails the organisation in charge of the bookkeeping? In this case it was P3B of which Denis is the chairman. Later it will be 'something else', when everybody has discussed and voted. Dough, It would be possible (eg like a company is supposed to do which is on the Bourse, eg annual report). Eg downloadable as pdf. This might be a good idea (although I'm not completely sure, since I'm not specialist in any of these things) It doesn't mean that if the statutes are in french, the EuroPython balance would be in french too. As I believe, P3B wasn't build with a international idea in mind, it was build to promote Python in Belgium (and then I even think more in the french speaking part), so it's normal, the statutes were written in french. I don't know what you mean with: 'P3B of course carried a lot of the risk too, so fair's fair.' It looks like you want to say that it is fair they keep it behind closed doors? I don't think you have to think like that. P3B is very open and I'm sure you can get all the information you want from their members. P3B was used as a conference host, since it was a non-profit organisation and was ideal for hosting the 2 EuroPython conferences. Aragne could have been used too, but that's just something Denis didn't wanted, since he wanted to have a clear distinction of the too and be as transparent as possible. (I do hope that I'm totally right here. Denis, please correct me if I'm wrong). Meaning: I think it is as transparent as it possibly can get. the whole conference is handled by a non-profit organisation. All income-outcome are handled by this organisation. No commercial company has been involved. So, back to my comment: 'Just ask and I'm sure you get it'. Perhaps it could be published on the website as well, but that's just a minor thing I guess. T. From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Wed Jul 9 19:30:53 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 20:30:53 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <010101c34648$058815a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> <01dc01c3456c$da6e92d0$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <20030709173043.GC6377@vet.uu.nl> <010101c34648$058815a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> Message-ID: <20030709183053.GI16116@logilab.fr> On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 08:27:35PM +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: > So you would like to have the balance on eg a website? Interesting idea. > But I've seen nowhere a conference which does that. Also PBF doesn't do > that. Accounting information was made public at the annual meeting in Charleroi. I would have no objection in making them available to the members on the website. If you were part of the PBF (or are you?) you could probably suggest that to the board. Sorry, just feel I have to defend the PBF here... e-mail is such a bad communication channel for this kind of discussion when everyone is saying "hey, but look over there, isn't that bad?". -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From Tom Deprez" <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> <01dc01c3456c$da6e92d0$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <20030709173043.GC6377@vet.uu.nl> <010101c34648$058815a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030709183053.GI16116@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <001d01c34652$bdc283d0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> Nicolas Chauvat wrote: > On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 08:27:35PM +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: >> So you would like to have the balance on eg a website? Interesting >> idea. But I've seen nowhere a conference which does that. Also PBF >> doesn't do that. > > Accounting information was made public at the annual meeting in > Charleroi. I would have no objection in making them available to the > members on the website. If you were part of the PBF (or are you?) you > could probably suggest that to the board. Well, it wasn't my idea to accuse PBF of something. I had no bad intention (or what so ever) behind that comment at all. > Sorry, just feel I have to defend the PBF here... e-mail is such a bad > communication channel for this kind of discussion when everyone is > saying "hey, but look over there, isn't that bad?". Euhm, yes, my idea as well. But again, I didn't wanted to attack PBF at all. It was just a way to tell that there are several cases which are very transparent, but that you sometimes just have to ask for the information (The following is not directed to Nicolas, but in general) I'm almost close to stop with this whole shebang. I feel sometimes attacked on some points which are dear to me (sometimes myself). I guess that it was not the intention (I hope, otherwise I don't quiet agree), but it feels as if it was the intention. The only mistake I see we did was announcing about EPC2004, which was wrong, I agree, but on some points to exaggerated: we were too enthousiastic of the last conference and we did had conversations with several people concerning that topic (so it didn't fell completely out of the air for everybody) and there was even a misunderstanding on one point. Heck, I even missed several of the discussions about it and I think also an official one. I'm sorry for those people we didn't talked at the conference and gave a bad feeling about it. It was never our intention to hurt people. Also if I've hurt people with some of my comments, this really isn't my intention. It's just my bad expression of feelings. Email is just not good for discussions like this. However, now I've a bad feeling and some conversations/flames I don't understand at all or see a connection with that one thing we did wrong. So, yes, I'm starting to think if it is all worthwhile for myself. I'm not planning to be very responsive in the next weeks. If I can manage, which I'm not sure about, since it can itch a lot sometimes (see EPC2003). Anyway, I recall here again, know that the offer of Götenborg EPC2004 is only valid until August 14th (If I understood it correctly). So know that decisions have to be made in the near future. Tom. From faassen@vet.uu.nl Wed Jul 9 20:48:16 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 21:48:16 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <20030709180042.GG16116@logilab.fr> References: <20030708171525.GE832@vet.uu.nl> <20030709125213.39846.qmail@web60006.mail.yahoo.com> <20030709173856.GD6377@vet.uu.nl> <20030709180042.GG16116@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <20030709194816.GA7577@vet.uu.nl> Nicolas Chauvat wrote: > On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 07:38:56PM +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: > > I *hope* the EuroPython organization can grow into something that > > can support multiple Python related events in Europe. This could be > > local events, or events with a different focus (participation > > in trade shows), or sprints, or maybe even eventually multiple > > bigger conferences per year. > > Which is also a goal of the PBF... > > If we agree that duplicating work on european-wide conferences would be > bad, do we really want to duplicate work in european-wide associations ? That is of course a good point. Though you could split the interests of the two in saying EuroPython is more about conferences and the like. Anyway, more cooperation with the PBF is certainly extremely desirable; we'll have to see what kind of support there is for which level of cooperation. One difference is that EuroPython is European in focus, while the PBF presumably is more world-wide, though it may be dominated by Europeans at the moment. Another possible difference is that EuroPython is coming from the direction of conferences so far. If it indeed starts to overlap with the PBF that would be bad, though. [snip] > Remember that even if a good number of us are a mix between technical people > and entrepreneurs, this does not mean that we have six clones working with > us. One can only do his share. Why would we lose time and energy having > ten different official bodies? One for Zope, one for Python, one for > conferences, one for BBQs... I thought the goal was to join forces? Even > if we were to join forces, we would still be ridiculously small and > inefficient compared to the professionals doing marketing for big entities > like IBM, MS, Sun, etc. I agree fully with what you express here, I just don't know what the solution should be. We need to balance the interests of the various groups and the positive advantages of some diversity with the desire not to dilute our people, our time, and our energies. Anyway, at least we're having dialog between the nebulous entity that is EuroPython and the PBF now, let's continue! I hope Paul Everitt will chip in as well for Zope Europe.. Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Wed Jul 9 21:05:15 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 22:05:15 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <010101c34648$058815a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> <01dc01c3456c$da6e92d0$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <20030709173043.GC6377@vet.uu.nl> <010101c34648$058815a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> Message-ID: <20030709200515.GB7577@vet.uu.nl> Tom Deprez wrote: [snip] > So you would like to have the balance on eg a website? Interesting idea. > But I've seen nowhere a conference which does that. Also PBF doesn't do > that. >From its statutes, to be found here: http://www.python-in-business.org/about/bylaws the PBF does the following: 1. At the annual meeting of the General Assembly the following items of business must be on the agenda: ... * Presentation of a budget by the outgoing board * Acceptance of budget and decision on membership fees for the upcoming year so the members do get access to the budget, every year, at the general assembly. How the budget is presented is not specified. > What is the problem with the fact that somebody -when he/she's > interested- just mails the organisation in charge of the bookkeeping? In > this case it was P3B of which Denis is the chairman. Later it will be > 'something else', when everybody has discussed and voted. The problem is that it is not transparent. The P3B works for now, but since I and many others of the *organizers* are not even a member of that organization that is clearly not ideal. If 'something else' gets to replace it I certainly want something in the statutes about presentation of the budget to the members. [snip] > It doesn't mean that if the statutes are in french, the EuroPython > balance would be in french too. > As I believe, P3B wasn't build with a international idea in mind, it was > build to promote Python in Belgium (and then I even think more in the > french speaking part), so it's normal, the statutes were written in > french. Of course, I'm not complaining about the P3B at all. The present situation is. It has served us well enough, though it was not fair to either the P3B or to the other organizers in all respects. Anyway, now we're discussing how we should proceed. > I don't know what you mean with: 'P3B of course carried a lot of the > risk too, so fair's fair.' > It looks like you want to say that it is fair they keep it behind closed > doors? I don't think you have to think like that. P3B is very open and > I'm sure you can get all the information you want from their members. All I tried to express is that I am *not* agitating against the P3B or what happened before. That is as it is, and there is no fault. What I am doing is suggesting steps to improve matters for everybody involved. This involves a clearer procedure including a clearer procedure concerning the budget. > P3B was used as a conference host, since it was a non-profit > organisation and was ideal for hosting the 2 EuroPython conferences. > Aragne could have been used too, but that's just something Denis didn't > wanted, since he wanted to have a clear distinction of the too and be as > transparent as possible. (I do hope that I'm totally right here. Denis, > please correct me if I'm wrong). I agree that was a good decision by Denis, and again, I am very grateful to both Denis and Aragne. Unfortunately there are also some problems which have come out (unless of course everybody agrees I'm just talking crap and I should shut up, but I assume at least some other organizers agree with me that we can improve matters here :), so we're mapping out steps on how to best proceed. > Meaning: I think it is as transparent as it possibly can get. If you have to explain to us in an email that you don't quite know and that I should mail Denis, this is not as transparent as it can get. :) > the whole > conference is handled by a non-profit organisation. All income-outcome > are handled by this organisation. No commercial company has been > involved. This is good. But I'm not a member of P3B, and it wasn't made clear to me that I should've become a member! If we decide P3B is the vehicle for future EuroPython activities, I will certainly join up and argue with others involved to do the same. > So, back to my comment: 'Just ask and I'm sure you get it'. Perhaps it > could be published on the website as well, but that's just a minor thing > I guess. I'm not asking for it to be published to the world. Anyway, the whole question about how we should be able to get to this information indicates that something can be improved concerning responsibilities and clarity. I dare to assume that actually Denis agrees with me that a new vehicle for EuroPython would be desirable. :) Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Wed Jul 9 21:06:47 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 22:06:47 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <20030709183053.GI16116@logilab.fr> References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> <01dc01c3456c$da6e92d0$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <20030709173043.GC6377@vet.uu.nl> <010101c34648$058815a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030709183053.GI16116@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <20030709200646.GC7577@vet.uu.nl> Nicolas Chauvat wrote: > On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 08:27:35PM +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: > > So you would like to have the balance on eg a website? Interesting idea. > > But I've seen nowhere a conference which does that. Also PBF doesn't do > > that. [snip explanation of how it works with the PBF by Nicolas] And I, not (yet, shame on me) member of the PBF, was able to find out by looking at your statutes, and explain this to Tom. *That* is what I mean by transparancy. Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Wed Jul 9 23:27:23 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 00:27:23 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <001d01c34652$bdc283d0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> <01dc01c3456c$da6e92d0$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <20030709173043.GC6377@vet.uu.nl> <010101c34648$058815a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030709183053.GI16116@logilab.fr> <001d01c34652$bdc283d0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> Message-ID: <20030709222722.GA8206@vet.uu.nl> Tom Deprez wrote: > I'm almost close to stop with this whole shebang. Ugh, sorry for the contribution to that. Good thing you're only "almost close", not "close". :) > I feel sometimes > attacked on some points which are dear to me (sometimes myself). I can sympathize a lot with this. I have felt the same thing in this discussion, and it's a very ugly feeling. :( > I guess that it was not the intention (I hope, otherwise I don't quiet agree), It never was my intention to attack persons. My intentions are: * have open discussion about the location before we announce it (we still don't have the options with benefits/risks listed clearly yet, but this discussion is starting to take place) * advocate that the conference has to move around Europe, if possible. (I've been advocating this since we started EuroPython back in 2001, and will continue to do so in the above discussion) * have a discussion on how we decide things and where responsibility lies (we're currently having this discussion). * help to actually improve matters in the form of either creating some association or joining an existing one. * try to repair the damage I've unintentionally caused by my vehement protests and arguing so we can all work together as friends. (I'm working on it... :) I also have the intention to defend myself when I feel personally attacked, which can happen in this emotional discussion. I've been trying to keep my more aggressive defense off-list however. :) > but it feels as if it was the intention. I'm truly sorry if you felt my attention was personal attack. It was not. > The only mistake I see we did > was announcing about EPC2004, which was wrong, I agree, but on some > points to exaggerated: > we were too enthousiastic of the last conference > and we did had conversations with several people concerning that topic > (so it didn't fell completely out of the air for everybody) and there > was even a misunderstanding on one point. This was my interpretation; you were enthusiastic from the conference just over and there was some communication at the conference itself (though I did not participate). This is perfectly understandable. If you understand that I was upset to see the announcement as well, then we're all in the clear and we can move on. > Heck, I even missed several of > the discussions about it and I think also an official one. If there was an official discussion it was not announced and I did not know of it. > I'm sorry for > those people we didn't talked at the conference and gave a bad feeling > about it. It was never our intention to hurt people. Also if I've hurt > people with some of my comments, this really isn't my intention. It's > just my bad expression of feelings. Email is just not good for > discussions like this. I fully understand it was an unintentional mistake. The mistake has since been corrected, so I'm trying to move on past this one. Yes, email is not optimal. We could talk on irc or arrange a phonecall if you'd like to talk things over. I'd like to clear up bad feelings if I can help it at all. Regards, Martijn From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Thu Jul 10 09:25:29 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:25:29 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <20030709194816.GA7577@vet.uu.nl> References: <20030708171525.GE832@vet.uu.nl> <20030709125213.39846.qmail@web60006.mail.yahoo.com> <20030709173856.GD6377@vet.uu.nl> <20030709180042.GG16116@logilab.fr> <20030709194816.GA7577@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <20030710082529.GB27229@logilab.fr> On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 09:48:16PM +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: > PBF now, let's continue! I hope Paul Everitt will chip in as well > for Zope Europe.. Yes, I would very much like Paul to chip in and give his opinion, as he might now be thinking that the "One paid person is enough for Zope Europe" idea may be difficult to achieve. I think that a lot of the marketing material needed for Zope is valuable for Python and the other way around is true. I would love to see coopperation in this domain. Please note that I am not advocating "everyone rallies to the PBF and we are done". Having several different organisations (PBF, EuroZope, Zope Europe, etc.) spring up proves that : * an actual need is felt for such things * the time has come * the community is big enough * there are a enough people willing to push things forward that way Now some say "start local", like Python-UK or EuroZope and others try to "start global", like PBF, Zope Europe and EuroPython. Others are doing very valuable work on their own too, see pythonology.org for example. My question is: how do we get the most out of this positive situation? -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From Tom Deprez" <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> <01dc01c3456c$da6e92d0$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <20030709173043.GC6377@vet.uu.nl> <010101c34648$058815a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030709200515.GB7577@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <005701c346c5$184284a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> > This is good. But I'm not a member of P3B, and it wasn't made clear to > me that I should've become a member! If we decide P3B is the vehicle > for future EuroPython activities, I will certainly join up and argue > with others involved to do the same. Euhm, if you read all the previous emails, then you know it was never the intention to have P3B as the 'vehicle' for EP. It was used, because there wasn't anything else. It is clear that some other 'vehicle' needs to be used. I'm just telling that some comments concerning P3B were unfair (eg only french etc). So my previous mail wasn't at all a way to convince people to use P3B, it was just a defense on some comments about P3B. And now I stop before even more confusion is introduced. Tom. From Tom Deprez" <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> <01dc01c3456c$da6e92d0$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <20030709173043.GC6377@vet.uu.nl> <010101c34648$058815a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030709183053.GI16116@logilab.fr> <20030709200646.GC7577@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <006201c346c5$1b7b8f90$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> > [snip explanation of how it works with the PBF by Nicolas] > > And I, not (yet, shame on me) member of the PBF, was able to find > out by looking at your statutes, and explain this to Tom. *That* is > what I mean by transparancy. Let me explain this once more: 1. I don't want that P3B is used as a vehicle by EP. 2. P3B is transparent, but it is in french. That's nothing wrong with it, it was just build for another purpose and that's what I'm trying to say... I just defend it because it has helped us a lot the last 2 years. T. From paul@eurozope.org Thu Jul 10 11:10:24 2003 From: paul@eurozope.org (Paul Everitt) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:10:24 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <20030710082529.GB27229@logilab.fr> Message-ID: I have no idea what happened to my europython traffic. I'm resubscribed now, and I have the joy of using pipermail to catch up on a massive conversation. :^) On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 10:25 Europe/Paris, Nicolas Chauvat wrote: > On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 09:48:16PM +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: >> PBF now, let's continue! I hope Paul Everitt will chip in as well >> for Zope Europe.. > > Yes, I would very much like Paul to chip in and give his opinion, as he > might now be thinking that the "One paid person is enough for Zope > Europe" > idea may be difficult to achieve. I think that a lot of the marketing > material needed for Zope is valuable for Python and the other way > around > is true. I would love to see coopperation in this domain. Regarding EuroZope (note: not the same as Zope Europe aka ZEA, but that's a different story), I think that it could have been more successful. However, it lacked the small number of people willing to do the crappy work. DZUG (German Zope User Group) seems to have this. Zope Europe isn't a volunteer organization. This means that I'm a candidate for doing the crappy work. :^) And it's true that a lot of what I'm doing has overlap in Python. However, I'm kinda ruthless about message focus and scope creep. > Please note that I am not advocating "everyone rallies to the PBF and > we > are done". Having several different organisations (PBF, EuroZope, Zope > Europe, > etc.) spring up proves that : > > * an actual need is felt for such things > > * the time has come > > * the community is big enough > > * there are a enough people willing to push things forward that way This is a reasonable analysis. I think there's another important point as well. These organizations *follow* the volunteers, rather than lead them. Meaning, if you write the bylaws and start the organization before you see proof of commitment, and see the patterns of participation, you'll have a dead organization. It's like the old story about sidewalks on campuses. Don't pave them when building the campus. Wait to see where people walk, then pave over the walkpaths. > Now some say "start local", like Python-UK or EuroZope and others try > to "start global", like PBF, Zope Europe and EuroPython. Others are > doing > very valuable work on their own too, see pythonology.org for example. I'll assert that neither of your second two examples are global. Zope Europe sure isn't (though there is an increasing need for a "voice of the community" organization). PBF would dilute itself too far if it was "global" (IMO). Again, we look at the situation and see who has proven willing to do what. We then use this as the starting point and grow from there. > My question is: how do we get the most out of this positive situation? This is a really good point. I know some strong words were raised, but all in all, this is a supremely constructive thread. And it's better that it happened now, rather than under time pressure later. Some observations: 1) Bylaws should follow enthusiasm, not lead. Mentioned above. I remember Michael McLay and I writing up a massive constitution after the first Python conference at NIST. It was a preposterous and useless exercise. 2) Do the least formality you can possibly get away with. Really, the true problem isn't lack-of-a-formal-organization. The problem is that few people will consistently volunteer time to do the crappy work. What Tom and Denis/Aragne did is astonishing. Considering the *nature* of the tasks, I'd say they contributed more than everybody else put together. 3) Likewise, we can't escape the "man in the middle" effect. There's a certain element of cat herding which requires someone who never shuffles these tasks to the bottom of the priority list. In a group of volunteers, people come and go at odd intervals. When they show up, somebody has to be there for them to plug into and get caught up. 4) About sponsorship, I think we are seeing the crowd effect. The book "The Tipping Point" talks about this. In NYC, 38 people watched a woman get stabbed on a sidewalk. None of them called the cops. When asked, they all said they thought someone else would. Whereas, if you know you're the only witness, you're vastly more likely participate. We might want to consider an ultimatum: we'll cancel the conference if 20 companies don't pledge 200 euros to cover losses. I have a list of all the Zope companies. :^) 5) New venues must be given an opportunity to prove that they're viable. But these candidates must also be treated skeptically. Fronting the money, the loyal few doing the crappy work, avoiding mistakes that we've already learned from...any other candidates must do much more than an expression of interest, IMO. If they are too busy to make a two page proposal in the next month, then this probably answers the question. --Paul From faassen@vet.uu.nl Thu Jul 10 12:37:17 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:37:17 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <005701c346c5$184284a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> <01dc01c3456c$da6e92d0$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <20030709173043.GC6377@vet.uu.nl> <010101c34648$058815a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030709200515.GB7577@vet.uu.nl> <005701c346c5$184284a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> Message-ID: <20030710113717.GA10145@vet.uu.nl> Tom Deprez wrote: > > This is good. But I'm not a member of P3B, and it wasn't made clear to > > me that I should've become a member! If we decide P3B is the vehicle > > for future EuroPython activities, I will certainly join up and argue > > with others involved to do the same. > > Euhm, if you read all the previous emails, then you know it was never > the intention to have P3B as the 'vehicle' for EP Yes, of course I know this. This is my point. P3B is not the vehicle for EP, except as a temporary solution. It is wonderful that this happened. But it's not perfect, as P3B is evidently *not* the final vehicle. > It was used, because > there wasn't anything else. It is clear that some other 'vehicle' needs > to be used. We are in complete agreement. I have probably been superfluous in pointing out the why's too often, and will do more so in this mail. Any advocate of change will need to show why a new situation would be better, but that does not necesarily mean that the previous situation is to be condemned. The previous situation can be an essential step towards the improvement being advocated. A rocket dumps its stages as it flies into orbit, but that does not mean the stages were never necesary. > I'm just telling that some comments concerning P3B were > unfair (eg only french etc). This was not a complaint about the P3B. The P3B is *not* a perfect vehicle, as it's Belgian in nature and the statutes naturally enough are not in a language we can all speak. You seem to agree with me, so I am at a loss why we're having this debate at all. > So my previous mail wasn't at all a way to > convince people to use P3B, it was just a defense on some comments about > P3B. Please give me some credit for understanding you; I knew perfectly you were not advocating we all use the P3B. :) I at least never was trying to attack P3B. P3B is great, and wonderful, and if I were in Belgium I would join. The problem is that I am not in Belgium and I'd like to have the feeling that I know what's going on, and what I should do to be able to take part in decision making, having helped to organize EP in 2002 and 2003. Currently the answer is mostly 'ask Denis'. That's great, and I have trusted Denis on this for 2 years and the only complaints I've had are a few minor quibbles before this recent debate on the location (and that mistake was amended quickly). This is a great record for Denis and for P3B, as well as yourself. I'll present the following as a personal case as I cannot speak for others, though I hope others also may feel similar things. But it would not be fair to either me or Denis to let the present situation continue indefinitely. Denis because he'll get all the blame while doing most of the work, and me as I've done *some* of the work and the only thing I get for it is long arguments on this mailing list. I'd like to at least been given the option to shoulder some of the responsibility together with others, if the community so decides. I'd also like to know if nobody cares about my contributions so I can spend my time more productively on something else. This can all be arranged clearly if we have some organization to work with. I could step forward to be on a board or commission and members can then vote me in, or out. As a member I can at least vote, so if the organization screws up I get to share the blame. :) Anyway, I'm probably saying things you already consider obvious; in that case my apologies for having taken your time. Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Thu Jul 10 12:38:49 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:38:49 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <006201c346c5$1b7b8f90$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> <01dc01c3456c$da6e92d0$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <20030709173043.GC6377@vet.uu.nl> <010101c34648$058815a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030709183053.GI16116@logilab.fr> <20030709200646.GC7577@vet.uu.nl> <006201c346c5$1b7b8f90$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> Message-ID: <20030710113849.GB10145@vet.uu.nl> Tom Deprez wrote: > > > [snip explanation of how it works with the PBF by Nicolas] > > > > And I, not (yet, shame on me) member of the PBF, was able to find > > out by looking at your statutes, and explain this to Tom. *That* is > > what I mean by transparancy. > > Let me explain this once more: > > 1. I don't want that P3B is used as a vehicle by EP. > 2. P3B is transparent, but it is in french. > That's nothing wrong with > it, it was just build for another purpose and that's what I'm trying to > say... I just defend it because it has helped us a lot the last 2 years. I agree with you completely on both points, see my previous mail. Regards, Martijn From magnus@thinkware.se Thu Jul 10 12:59:40 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:59:40 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: <010101c34648$058815a0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> References: <20030707124440.GA1167@carolo.net> <20030707153126.GA26613@vet.uu.nl> <01a101c344be$7422f970$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> <20030708161625.GB832@vet.uu.nl> <01dc01c3456c$da6e92d0$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be> <20030709173043.GC6377@vet.uu.nl> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030710100200.073e3e30@www.thinkware.se> At 20:27 2003-07-09 +0200, Tom Deprez wrote: >So you would like to have the balance on eg a website? Interesting idea. >But I've seen nowhere a conference which does that. Also PBF doesn't do >that. As newly appointed auditor of PBF, I've just started to look at these things, and while I didn't explicitly mention the web site, I've suggested a format for an annual financial statement, and talked about the importance of this information being available for all members, and it should certainly be sent to every member before the yearly General Assembly. This year there was just an oral presentation at the General Assembly, but the only transactions were membership payments, so it was not a very complicated report... I still think it should be done in writing in due time before the meeting, but PBF is still in its infancy. With a light weight organization, we can't expect any online accounting system to be updated daily, but I think it would be good with an open budget and information ASAP if there is any significant deviation from that. >What is the problem with the fact that somebody -when he/she's >interested- just mails the organisation in charge of the bookkeeping? In >this case it was P3B of which Denis is the chairman. Later it will be >'something else', when everybody has discussed and voted. If there is a formal EPC organization, it should obviously report about its financial status to all it's members/owners before it's general assembly or whatever the equivalent might be called. >Meaning: I think it is as transparent as it possibly can get. Maybe there is a problem here that some information is available inside P3B, and other information is in the mailing list and so on. For those involved in both P3B and EuroPython, it's not a problem, but for those outside P3B, it isn't transparent. I guess this could get clearer if there was some kind of formal EuropPython organization for all of us who are involved. Maybe P3B *could* become that, I'm open to all alternatives, but it isn't that today. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From magnus@thinkware.se Thu Jul 10 14:07:50 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:07:50 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC mobile or static? Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030710140642.02049898@www.thinkware.se> Complelety disregarding where EPC 2004 will take place: What do people think about the location of future EuroPythons in general? Should we try to keep them in the same place, year after year, as Francis Glassborough suggested? Should we strive to move them around to different countries in Europe? If we move them around, should we aim to move each year, or every other year or every fifth year or what? Should we formalize these things in some way? E.g. should we state that one location can't hold Europython for more than two years in a row, or perhaps vice versa require that those who arrange it should be prepared to do so for at least three years? Or should we disregard the issues of previous location when we decide where to place it? I'm not really suggesting anything here. I just want us to try to find some common view on this issue. I see advantages with both a more static and a more dynamic approach, even if I personally believe in moving it around. I guess I could be proven wrong, but I'd like us to think about these issues in principle, regardless of the current options. I think it's generally better to base concrete decisions on some underlying principles rather than vice versa... I really think we are very happy to be in a situation where there are able and interested people in two separate locations who want to arrange EPC. I fear that there will by years when we have to struggle to find one candidate... -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From Tom Deprez" Message-ID: <00e501c346e7$025ee8f0$897ba8c0@skullsplitter> I would like to summarise it like this: * EPC should move around in Europe (this was the initial idea) But only when: 1. There are people willing to do it somewhere else 2. People who are willing to do it have proved themselfs they can handle it (have time & experience) It is probably part 2 which should be formalized somewhere on which points the organsiations willing to organise have to prove themself they are capable of: eg: - previous organisations - amount of people - amount of time - proof-of-concept And then there is of course the 'system' when we've the luxory more than one group of people what to organise it. With 'system' I mean the decision factor on which to chose. Their are lots of factors: - voting - comfort - travel - place - amount of expected visitors - special motivations (like one time opportunities) - ... Tom. Magnus Lyckå wrote: > Complelety disregarding where EPC 2004 will take place: > > What do people think about the location of future EuroPythons > in general? > > Should we try to keep them in the same place, year after > year, as Francis Glassborough suggested? > > Should we strive to move them around to different countries > in Europe? > > If we move them around, should we aim to move each year, > or every other year or every fifth year or what? > > Should we formalize these things in some way? E.g. should > we state that one location can't hold Europython for more > than two years in a row, or perhaps vice versa require that > those who arrange it should be prepared to do so for at least > three years? Or should we disregard the issues of previous > location when we decide where to place it? > > I'm not really suggesting anything here. I just want us to > try to find some common view on this issue. I see advantages > with both a more static and a more dynamic approach, even if > I personally believe in moving it around. I guess I could be > proven wrong, but I'd like us to think about these issues in > principle, regardless of the current options. I think it's > generally better to base concrete decisions on some underlying > principles rather than vice versa... > > I really think we are very happy to be in a situation where > there are able and interested people in two separate > locations who want to arrange EPC. I fear that there will by > years when we have to struggle to find one candidate... From andy@reportlab.com Thu Jul 10 16:59:08 2003 From: andy@reportlab.com (Andy Robinson) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:59:08 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Sharing EPC financial risk In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030709190501.073fee70@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: > Great! > > Considering how much Python stuff IBM has on its web site (in > DeveloperWorks and AlphaWorks), it seem likely that they would > be interested. (I got 289 hits for Python at IBM DeveloperWorks.) > > HP has also shown interest in Python, for instance with > sourceforge.net/projects/pysol/ (but that seems to be fairly > dead...) It's DEFINITELY dead, it died on Jan 19 2000. The HP project behind that (which actually funded Python's Unicode development in late 1999) was supposed to be ReportLab's first big contract and the relevant HP department was scrapped and moved to Java just before we started. The 3 lead developers all quit too. But I have some other intros to HP I can exploit, not for a few weeks though. - Andy From mwh@python.net Thu Jul 10 17:16:36 2003 From: mwh@python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:16:36 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC mobile or static? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030710140642.02049898@www.thinkware.se> (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?q?Lyck=E5's?= message of "Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:07:50 +0200") References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030710140642.02049898@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <2m8yr6mk63.fsf@starship.python.net> Just my opinions: Magnus Lyck=E5 writes: > Complelety disregarding where EPC 2004 will take place: > > What do people think about the location of future EuroPythons > in general? It should move around. > Should we strive to move them around to different countries > in Europe? Eh, if it's going to move, it should probably move countries :-) > Should we formalize these things in some way? No. Cheers, M. --=20 The "of course, while I have no problem with this at all, it's surely too much for a lesser being" flavor of argument always rings hollow to me. -- Tim Peters, 29 Apr 1998 From mwh@python.net Thu Jul 10 17:23:08 2003 From: mwh@python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:23:08 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Re: EuroPython decision process In-Reply-To: (Paul Everitt's message of "Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:10:24 +0200") References: Message-ID: <2m65mamjv7.fsf@starship.python.net> Paul Everitt writes: > I have no idea what happened to my europython traffic. I'm > resubscribed now, and I have the joy of using pipermail to catch up on > a massive conversation. :^) Glad to have you back :-) > 1) Bylaws should follow enthusiasm, not lead. Mentioned above. I > remember Michael McLay and I writing up a massive constitution > after the first Python conference at NIST. It was a preposterous > and useless exercise. Heh. > 2) Do the least formality you can possibly get away with. Really, the > true problem isn't lack-of-a-formal-organization. The problem is > that few people will consistently volunteer time to do the crappy > work. Hear hear! > 3) Likewise, we can't escape the "man in the middle" effect. There's > a certain element of cat herding which requires someone who never > shuffles these tasks to the bottom of the priority list. In a > group of volunteers, people come and go at odd intervals. When > they show up, somebody has to be there for them to plug into and > get caught up. > > 4) About sponsorship, I think we are seeing the crowd effect. The > book "The Tipping Point" talks about this. In NYC, 38 people > watched a woman get stabbed on a sidewalk. None of them called the > cops. When asked, they all said they thought someone else would. > Whereas, if you know you're the only witness, you're vastly more > likely participate. This is an effect with much wider relavence than corporate sponsorship of course -- "ask not what your conference can do for you, but rather what you can do for your conference" :-) We need to emphasize that we want people to be involved in helping for the con, and we need a pile of small jobs that people with half an hour to spare here and there can do. Drafting/proofing/translating press releases is one such, and something that didn't really get enough attention this year. Cheers, M. -- Worryingly, DEFUN appears to be a function that removes all the fun from something: after using it all your code is converted to C++. -- Tim Bradshaw, comp.lang.lisp From andy@reportlab.com Fri Jul 11 16:23:53 2003 From: andy@reportlab.com (Andy Robinson) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 16:23:53 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC mobile or static? In-Reply-To: <2m8yr6mk63.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: > > What do people think about the location of future EuroPythons > > in general? > > It should move around. IMHO not too often. Even O'Reilly tends to alternate among just 2-3 locations over many years. First time for an organizing team in a new place is always a risk. If the same team has already organised other events in the place (which is sort-of true for Goteborg, I understand), it is less of a risk. - Andy From faassen@vet.uu.nl Fri Jul 11 19:34:29 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 20:34:29 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC mobile or static? In-Reply-To: References: <2m8yr6mk63.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <20030711183429.GA17426@vet.uu.nl> Andy Robinson wrote: > > > What do people think about the location of future EuroPythons > > > in general? > > > > It should move around. > > IMHO not too often. A problem with saying 'not too often' more formally means that each location would need to make a multi-year commitment. It is great if that is possible but we'd miss out on many great locations if we actually require this. We do need to consider ways to mitigate the risk of moving around, though. There are a number of other conferences that seem to happen in a new location each year; I wonder what kind of construction they have. I imagine they are frequently professionally organized, which also mitigates the risk somewhat. If EPC had a budget for that we may do the same, but I doubt we'll have a sizeable enough budget for the forseeable future to be able to afford much in the way of professional organization. If the professionally organized IPC conferences barely made money at the amount of money they charged I don't hold out that much hope for our more low-budget format unless we grow an awful lot bigger in amount of attendees. If we have truly committed volunteers and an efficient organization it may be possible for at least some of them to sweep into the location at least once before the conference proper early on to scout out the terrain and arrange some matters, and arrive at the conference location a few days earlier for last minute stuff. It may actually be within our budget to compensate these volunteers for some of their expenses. It may also sometimes be possible to combine this with a business trip. It may in the end turn out we will settle on 2 or 3 locations for EPC too. This is fine, as long as we have a clear way for any location to make a bid and get at least considered. Regards, Martijn From magnus@thinkware.se Sat Jul 12 22:17:35 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 23:17:35 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EEIG Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030712225626.01fa94a0@www.thinkware.se> Andrew Smart suggested that EuroPython should be formed as a European Economic Interest Grouping (EEIG). The best reference I found for what that is is: http://europa.eu.int/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l26015.htm It is my understanding, that the EEIG is intended more for temporary, commercial joint ventures between compnaies in different EU countries. It's my understanding that it would *not* suit us for EuroPython. My main concern is this: "As a counterweight to the contractual freedom which is at the basis of the EEIG and the fact that members are not required to provide a minimum amount of capital, each member of the EEIG has unlimited joint and several liability for its debts." This means that if the next EuroPython ends with a big debt that the new EuroPython organisation can't pay, its creditors can approach *any* member of the EuroPython organisation, and demand that he/she/it pays the whole debt. That might be you...or me... I don't really want to be a member of such an organisation. (Shrug!) Not that I think that the EuroPython organizers would do a bad job, but I'm not willing to bet my family's economy on it. I think we must have an organisation that is an *independent* legal entity, that can have profits, debts and taxes of its own. I'm curious to hear more about the "International Non Profit Association" that Denis mentioned. Perhaps that will be a better fit. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de Sun Jul 13 13:25:48 2003 From: Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de (Andrew Smart) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 14:25:48 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Building up a structure Message-ID: Hi folks, simple question: Is the community willing to build up a structure for the EPC? This means: - most of the EPC interested people have to become members of "something" - there has to be some voting on decisions - some the EPC interested people are going to be elected to implement the decisions - cash has to flow - either in some sort of membership fees or for visiting the EPC (what kind of fee is choosen would be one of the decisions to vote for). If there is a common understanding on this question (most of the people say yes to most of the questions) THEN the questions of the legal body arises. Not before. Andrew From Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de Sun Jul 13 13:25:48 2003 From: Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de (Andrew Smart) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 14:25:48 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EEIG In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030712225626.01fa94a0@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: europython-admin@python.org wrote: > Andrew Smart suggested that EuroPython should be formed > as a European Economic Interest Grouping (EEIG). > > The best reference I found for what that is is: > http://europa.eu.int/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l26015.htm > > It is my understanding, that the EEIG is intended more for > temporary, commercial joint ventures between compnaies in > different EU countries. It's my understanding that it would > *not* suit us for EuroPython. > > My main concern is this: > > "As a counterweight to the contractual freedom which is at > the basis of the EEIG and the fact that members are not > required to provide a minimum amount of capital, each member > of the EEIG has unlimited joint and several liability for its > debts." > > This means that if the next EuroPython ends with a big debt that > the new EuroPython organisation can't pay, its creditors can > approach *any* member of the EuroPython organisation, and demand > that he/she/it pays the whole debt. That might be you...or me... > > I don't really want to be a member of such an organisation. (Shrug!) > Not that I think that the EuroPython organizers would do a bad job, > but I'm not willing to bet my family's economy on it. I think we > must have an organisation that is an *independent* legal entity, > that can have profits, debts and taxes of its own. > > > I'm curious to hear more about the "International Non Profit > Association" that Denis mentioned. Perhaps that will be a better > fit. Hi Magnus, EEIGs have the option to limit the potential risk for every possible member, meaning certain members don't have to risk their personal economy for the EPC. Risk sharing is a topic also for non-profit-organisations. In Germany the risk sharing for the commonly used "e.V." is the same: every member is liable for the debts of the "Verein" in case of bancruptcy. I believe that in the hard case of bancruptcy this is true for all (non-) profit organisations. If else it would open the door for any sort of criminal or unkind behaeviour. Most people don't know that or tend to ignore the fact. A EEIG is a own legal body, BTW. And it IS used for non-profit purposes, and _people_ can be members. And, as I said, it would depend on the rules of the EEIG if people who aren't legally members of the EEIG would have a vote for certain decissions. I think it is a difference between collecting votes for deciscions like "where will be the next EPC" and collecting votes for formal procedures of the EEIG. But I won't argue the case for the EEIG for long. As far as I know there is no other way based on _european_ law to form a legal body besides founding a european based share-based company. All other options would include to form a national based legal body in one of the countries of one of the EPC members. Respective national laws would have to be followed. The PBF uses the very open swedish law which restricts nearly nothing as far as I now. Besides the legal body the basic discussion is about to form any sort of structure. And this is the main point currently, I think. Andrew From Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de Sun Jul 13 13:37:54 2003 From: Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de (Andrew Smart) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 14:37:54 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Motives and interests build structures Message-ID: I think we should differentiate between the different interests and motives of the people and companies involved into the EPC activities. It is important to think about the interests and motives, because we need to build up a structure which focuses on that. Else the people won't participate. Currently the basic common interest is implicit throu the way the EPC happened. If we want a structure, we have to make it explicit. I see several typical interests: Company interests: - some companies are developing software based on Python (including Zope, Plone etc.) and want to sell this to the community. -> Therefore they show up and make some marketing on the EPC, also getting feedback about the pros and cons of their products. - some companies are interested to support the community, because their business is based on community efforts products and are depending on the community to get the products developed. -> They show up and connect to the community, caring about the relationships. - some companies are not dependent on Python or community products but have stratetic interests in Python or community products. Or they want to be present in the community for other interests. Or they just believe in Python ;-) Or they love the Belgium beer and the sandwiches of the EPC. -> they show up, talk to people and get the community vibes. - some companies may be potential customers and want to talk to the community or the companies. Personal interests: - Python developers try to catch up the newest stuff, try to learn something. - Python developers try to connect to companies to get contracts. - People are interested in meeting people, caring about relationships, want to build new ones. - People are interested in technologies, want to learn something new. - The PBF people use the occasion to meet in front of the building ;-) - The ZopeEurope/EuroZope people use the occasion to meet in hot rooms above locations with curios names like "Eden". ;-)) - Some people are interested in giving talks about their stuff I surely missed some interests/motives... Andrew From paul@eurozope.org Sun Jul 13 13:50:47 2003 From: paul@eurozope.org (Paul Everitt) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 14:50:47 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Building up a structure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sunday, Jul 13, 2003, at 14:25 Europe/Paris, Andrew Smart wrote: > Hi folks, > > simple question: > > Is the community willing to build up a structure for the EPC? Why don't we just use the PBF? --Paul From Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de Sun Jul 13 14:02:11 2003 From: Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de (Andrew Smart) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 15:02:11 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Structure prototypes Message-ID: To support the discussion I give you two ideas about potential structures. Basicly the difference between both is the way risk and work is shared. Structure type A: ----------------- The companies and persons with commercial interest form a legal body and share the risk. If there are enough companies (which is given fact in my opinion) and people they can easily split and share the risk. If there are any debts the members should share the debts and write it off as marketing expenses. Beeing a company owner myself this is one of my views. I spend 500 Euros for the last EPC because Python and the relationships give me a stratetic option I won't like to loose. And I'm not even earning money with selling Python products or consultancy. How about your company which is based on Python or Python products. Is investing 500 Euros a year to much asked for investing into the future of your company or your revenues? Yes, every one can have a hard discussion with me about that... Open issues: - who is going to do work? The community won't participate that much, because they say this sort of EPC is commercial, so it is a problem for the companies. So basicly this falls back to the companies, thus costing money. - how is the community included in the decision making? I think this can be handled with proper communication and intelligent ways of including the community. The community would get a vital EPC with solid (financal) background and organisation and has to pay the price of having a "commercialized" EPC. Structure type B: ----------------- The community shares the risk. Meaning: a legal body has to be formed where most of the participants/organizers have to be members. Companies can be included in some sort of sponsoring, other organisations as well. The risks/potential debts are financed throu some sort of membership fees, the conference itself as well throu entrance fees. Would be the "ideal" structure, but has the problem of all democratic organisations: who is _willing_ to do the work? How can we get most of the more-or-less passive (in the way of beeing activly involved in the EPC organisation) of the community people to sign up to such legal body? Why should they? One way would be to have reduced entry fees for EPC "members" instead of "normal" visitors. From Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de Sun Jul 13 14:09:17 2003 From: Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de (Andrew Smart) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 15:09:17 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Voting structure on the web Message-ID: Hi folks, I would like to have some "serious" voting on several EPC topics. I think about something like - everyone who is on the EPC mailing list gets a mail with a link and a one-time-login for a vote - people who aren't interested in voting can signal this throu an additional link Do we have some sort of infrastructre on this? Or has anyone already done such stuff? Andrew From magnus@thinkware.se Mon Jul 14 00:32:43 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 01:32:43 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Structure prototypes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030713233054.01fb5f58@www.thinkware.se> At 15:02 2003-07-13 +0200, Andrew Smart wrote: >To support the discussion I give you two ideas about potential >structures. I would certainly prefer a community based approach for EPC. I hope that I'll see concrete proposals from both G=F6teborg and Charleroi, so that we have some kind of basis for our discussions of what financial risks etc we are talking about. Dario said he'd post a budget. I assume it's fairly easy for Denis to present a budget for an EPC in Charleroi, considering that he has done it twice. Unless we know something about actual costs, I feel that these discussions about financial risks etc seem very hypothetical. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language=20 From magnus@thinkware.se Mon Jul 14 00:30:38 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 01:30:38 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] EEIG In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030712225626.01fa94a0@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030713145334.01f9dd48@www.thinkware.se> At 14:25 2003-07-13 +0200, Andrew Smart wrote: >Risk sharing is a topic also for non-profit-organisations. Of course. If for instance a Swedish non-profit wants a bank loan, it's typical that some people or companies will have to put up personal security. The bank won't lend it money without solid security. This is not a problem unless we plan to borrow money... To me this seems much better than the unlimited liability of an EEIG. We can take a limited financial risk--if and when it's needed. >And, as I said, it would depend on the rules of the EEIG if >people who aren't legally members of the EEIG would have a vote >for certain decissions. I think it's important to have an organisation where someone who wants to work with Europython can become a "real" member without even a very small risk of personal financial ruin. Regardless of internal rules regarding covering losses in an EEIG, a creditor can demand unpaid bills to be paid in full by any member. Internal rules are not his problem. Every member is responsible. *I* might be forced to pay in full and then make sure that I get money back from other members (who might now be bancrupt, dead or whatever). If I don't pay, the enforcement service might sell my house and my car, and I will have severe problems getting credit (and a new wife) for years... >All other options would include to form a national based legal body >in one of the countries of one of the EPC members. Respective >national laws would have to be followed. National laws always have to be followed. Since the EEIG can't have its own profits or losses, and can't pay it's own tax, all members will have to handle this for their own piece of the EPC economy. This means a duplication of work, and the society would have to supply the paperwork needed to satisfy every members national laws... :( In case of a non-profit, a member pay a membership fee, get a receipt for that, and that's it. All trouble with profits and taxes are handled by the society, following the laws of one country. It seems this is the least complicated solution we can get. Of course, we will still need a way to cover losses... I don't have a silver bullet solution for that I'm afraid. :( >The PBF uses the very open swedish law which restricts nearly >nothing as far as I now. Obviously, Swedish tax laws apply. There are also rules about accounting practice etc for large non-profits. We won't be close to that. I'll elaborate if anyone wants to know more. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From magnus@thinkware.se Mon Jul 14 01:53:39 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 02:53:39 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Voting structure on the web In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030713234348.01fadbc0@www.thinkware.se> At 15:09 2003-07-13 +0200, Andrew Smart wrote: >I would like to have some "serious" voting on several EPC topics. It seems to me that we need a common understanding rather than some kind of majority votes. Premature decisions will just split the community, and weaken EuroPython. What would such "votes" mean? Would they just be seen as an expression of opinion, or should they be deciding in some way? If we "vote" without agreeing on what the consequences of the voting will be, the vote won't solve anything. Who gets the right to formulate the questions and to decide when it's time to vote? Who is bound by these "decisions"? Who is responsible for the way things are handled? What ways are there to correct problems in the process that answers these questions? Some kind of formal organisation with proper bylaws and members have a much better way of dealing with questions like this than a mailing list. I hope we can agree on a way to create such an organisation. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From dario@ita.chalmers.se Mon Jul 14 09:19:33 2003 From: dario@ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:19:33 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Structure prototypes References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030713233054.01fb5f58@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <007401c349e0$a7b84840$6500a8c0@WALTER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Magnus Lyckå" > >I would certainly prefer a community based approach for EPC. me too. >I hope that I'll see concrete proposals from both Göteborg and >Charleroi, so that we have some kind of basis for our discussions >of what financial risks etc we are talking about. > >Dario said he'd post a budget. I assume it's fairly easy for Denis >to present a budget for an EPC in Charleroi, considering that he >has done it twice. In communications with Laura and Jacob nearly two weeks ago, I was asked to postpone the posting the budget until we had a clearer view of what the event would encompass. Jacob and Laura have some very interesitng ideas of how the EPC culd be arranged here in Göteborg. I have sent a trimmed budget of an event my User Group (not python related) will host in mid-September, so they have some current numbers to work with. >Unless we know something about actual costs, I feel that these >discussions about financial risks etc seem very hypothetical. Here are some **extremely** rough numbers just to give you an example, based on an **imagined** conference event: 3-day conference ----------------- Venue: 2 rooms for ~30-40 people 1 large room (cimena-like) for about 300 people 1 large area for exibition/mingle space Food: 1 lunch every day (real lunch, not sandwiches) 1 coffe+sandwich before lunch 1 coffee+cookie after lunch Big dinner day 2 Other: 1 small gift to speakers. Sponsors: No sponsors No exhibitors, Total costs: ~27.000 Euros exkl VAT + ~2000 Euros for any unexpected costs Participants: 25 speakers @ 0 Euro (no fee for speakers) 6 organisers @ 0 Euro (no fee for organisers) 110 participants @ 250 Euros each + VAT Total earnings: ~27.500 Euros exkl VAT VAT: 25% in Sweden If we are to sponsor speakers with hotel or travel, we NEED to have sponsors or exhibitors with real money. I need to talk to the Laura and Jacob about what we want to do, because depending of what kind of conference we want to have, the costs might change a lot, depending on the amount of space, if we want to host sprints... This will surely affect the costs, ie. sprints need rooms, etc. Like I said, these are are idealistic numbers, and they may change a lot; I am sure I have underestimated the costs for rooms, especially if we need to arrange sprints that require rooms. I will be away from a computer startign tomorrow for 2 weeks (I'll be abroad on vacation with my family) so I'll be able to read mail again from August 30. (If I can manage to sneak my laptop as part of the luggage, there is a small chance I might be able to read mail from the hotel ;-). Anyway, I hope this will give you a rough estimate of the mount of money required for an event *I* could come up with. Cheers, /dario _______________________________________________ EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Mon Jul 14 11:11:50 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:11:50 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Voting structure on the web In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030713234348.01fadbc0@www.thinkware.se> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030713234348.01fadbc0@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <20030714101150.GB22660@logilab.fr> On Mon, Jul 14, 2003 at 02:53:39AM +0200, Magnus Lyckå wrote: > Some kind of formal organisation with proper bylaws and members > have a much better way of dealing with questions like this than > a mailing list. PBF anyone ? -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From magnus@thinkware.se Mon Jul 14 11:30:35 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:30:35 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Structure prototypes In-Reply-To: <007401c349e0$a7b84840$6500a8c0@WALTER> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030713233054.01fb5f58@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030714122927.01f4c2c8@www.thinkware.se> At 10:19 2003-07-14 +0200, Dario Lopez-K=E4sten wrote: >I will be away from a computer startign tomorrow for 2 weeks (I'll be= abroad >on vacation with my family) so I'll be able to read mail again from August >30. That's two *very* long weeks! Shall we assume that you meant July 30? -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language=20 From magnus@thinkware.se Mon Jul 14 11:31:43 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:31:43 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Voting structure on the web In-Reply-To: <20030714101150.GB22660@logilab.fr> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030713234348.01fadbc0@www.thinkware.se> <5.2.1.1.0.20030713234348.01fadbc0@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030714123115.01ed6cc8@www.thinkware.se> At 12:11 2003-07-14 +0200, Nicolas Chauvat wrote: >PBF anyone ? I don't quite understand the question. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From dario@ita.chalmers.se Tue Jul 15 08:00:52 2003 From: dario@ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:00:52 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Structure prototypes References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030713233054.01fb5f58@www.thinkware.se> <5.2.1.1.0.20030714122927.01f4c2c8@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <002301c34a9e$d4400740$6500a8c0@WALTER> From: "Magnus Lyckå" At 10:19 2003-07-14 +0200, Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote: >I will be away from a computer startign tomorrow for 2 weeks (I'll be abroad >on vacation with my family) so I'll be able to read mail again from August >30. > >That's two *very* long weeks! Shall we assume that you meant July 30? uhmm... yes, that is what I meant. I guess my Subconscious Self manifested it self :-) /dario -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From dario@ita.chalmers.se Tue Jul 15 09:47:36 2003 From: dario@ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:47:36 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Voting structure on the web References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030713234348.01fadbc0@www.thinkware.se> <5.2.1.1.0.20030713234348.01fadbc0@www.thinkware.se> <5.2.1.1.0.20030714123115.01ed6cc8@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <003601c34aad$bd63fc70$6500a8c0@WALTER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Magnus Lyckå" > At 12:11 2003-07-14 +0200, Nicolas Chauvat wrote: > >PBF anyone ? > > I don't quite understand the question. > I think he meant that PBF would be a good candidate to be the formal body that would take EPC under it's wings. I guess it would be OK, though I fear that a) this might not be within the scope of activities of the PBF (this is just a guess from reading the bylaws) and b) since the PBF is not a community oriented society - on the contrary it is a society with a rather well-defined target group: companies doing commercial work with Python - this perhaps would have a dampening effect on the "communitiveness" of the EPC. Again this is a guess. Nevertheless I do think that some sort of formal/legal body is needed to make it easier to make more EPC's in the future I must say that I am still a little surprised at the fact we have somehow seem to have reached some sort of ad-hoc concensus that the EPC needs the backing of a more formal body, while at the same time the very idea of creating such a body **with a community focus** seems unacceptable to most - this is the impression I have from the postings to the mailinglist. A loose community based on a mailinglist is not enoguh for this, and as I mentioned above, my personal feeling is that the EPC, while no doubt being important to the PBF, probably should not be, so to speak, "in the hands" of it. I think there is a case for a low-profile but nevertheless formalised society of European Python users that, among its more important activities, is responsible for nurturing and taking care of the EPC. Anyways, these were my personal ramblings - I off to vacation. Happy summer to all :-) /dario - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de Tue Jul 15 12:54:40 2003 From: Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de (Andrew Smart) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:54:40 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Who is "the community" & voting In-Reply-To: <003601c34aad$bd63fc70$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: Hi, I think one of the key questions is: Who is the community, after all? All members on the mailing list? All visitors? All organisators? One of my ideas was to use some sort of qualified voting to get at least a small part of the community to show up and say "yes, I am / I want to be a community member. My participation will be at least to vote on decissions." How we are else going to "count votes"? Just make a decission based on the people which are most activily writting mails? Andrew From Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de Tue Jul 15 13:04:42 2003 From: Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de (Andrew Smart) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:04:42 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Voting structure on the web In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030713234348.01fadbc0@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: europython-admin@python.org wrote: > At 15:09 2003-07-13 +0200, Andrew Smart wrote: >> I would like to have some "serious" voting on several EPC topics. > > It seems to me that we need a common understanding rather than > some kind of majority votes. Premature decisions will just split > the community, and weaken EuroPython. First the question should have been: for what kind of votes you are going to use this voting system? I think we should have some common understanding who the community is after all. This would be the first step. Or what kind of "common" understanding you may get for an unaccountend mass of people which most of don't participate activily on the list? Just because the people won't replay doesn't mean they are supporting the ideas exchanged on the list. If some small group here on the list makes the basic decissions there is also a fair change that it will split the community. > What would such "votes" mean? Would they just be seen as an > expression of opinion, or should they be deciding in some way? > > If we "vote" without agreeing on what the consequences of the > voting will be, the vote won't solve anything. > > Who gets the right to formulate the questions and to decide when > it's time to vote? Who is bound by these "decisions"? Who is > responsible for the way things are handled? What ways are there > to correct problems in the process that answers these questions? > > Some kind of formal organisation with proper bylaws and members > have a much better way of dealing with questions like this than a > mailing list. > > I hope we can agree on a way to create such an organisation. The problem is to "bootstraping" the whole thing, on either way. A voting system with some sort of authentication would be a good tool for any kind of decission making. My question was: is there a good tool out there? I didn't say: I want votes on this or that. My first question would be: Are you willing to register as a "member of the EPC community"? If the answer is "yes" then please register on the voting system. Then "we" can continue to build up the thing. If someone has an idea, a proposal etc. it will be discussed between this people and the community can get involved by asking them. Andrew From Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de Tue Jul 15 13:11:07 2003 From: Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de (Andrew Smart) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:11:07 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Structure prototypes In-Reply-To: <007401c349e0$a7b84840$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Magnus Lyckå" >> >> I would certainly prefer a community based approach for EPC. > > me too. I'm fine with both approaches. Every type has its pro's and con's. But I have to be convinced that "the community" is willing and able to organize themself in a way which makes the next EPC possible. The last both events has been "on the shoulders" of some few peoples, who made a terrific job and two beatiful conferences. If we talk about "community" then my impression is that the weight is going to be put on more shoulders, at least considering the risks. I fear the passing the organisational structure in the hand of an anonymus group of people will cause the effect that many people don't feal responsible for the success. And having a organisational structure the last organisers will - with any right - give away the responsibility to said organisation. What happens then? Who is going to take the lead? Of what? Andrew From denis@aragne.com Tue Jul 15 14:51:11 2003 From: denis@aragne.com (Denis =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E8re?=) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:51:11 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Voting structure on the web In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030713234348.01fadbc0@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <20030715135111.GB19932@carolo.net> Le Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 02:04:42PM +0200, Andrew Smart pianota: > > First the question should have been: for what kind of votes you are > going to use this voting system? > > I think we should have some common understanding who the community > is after all. Indeed, I was pleased to see some fundamental questions arising in the previous mails : who is the community, what are our aims, ... For me, your approach is good. > Just because the people won't replay doesn't mean they are supporting > the ideas exchanged on the list. Obviously. > > I hope we can agree on a way to create such an organisation. > > The problem is to "bootstraping" the whole thing, on either way. > > A voting system with some sort of authentication would be a good > tool for any kind of decission making. > > My question was: is there a good tool out there? The best tool I know of is Glasnost see http://glasnost.entrouvert.org/downloading I don't know if there is an English doc yet, but it's pure Python. Denis -- Denis FRERE P3B : Club Python(-Zope) Belge --------- http://www.p3b.org OS3B : Club Open-Software(-Linux) Carolo http://www.os3b.org Aragne : Python-Zope Solutions & Formations http://www.aragne.com From fpeters@entrouvert.be Tue Jul 15 15:34:09 2003 From: fpeters@entrouvert.be (Frederic Peters) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:34:09 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Voting structure on the web In-Reply-To: <20030715135111.GB19932@carolo.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030713234348.01fadbc0@www.thinkware.se> <20030715135111.GB19932@carolo.net> Message-ID: <20030715143409.GB4198@entrouvert.be> Hello Denis, hello to the whole EuroPython crew. > Le Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 02:04:42PM +0200, Andrew Smart pianota: > > The problem is to "bootstraping" the whole thing, on either way. > > > > A voting system with some sort of authentication would be a good > > tool for any kind of decission making. > > > > My question was: is there a good tool out there? Denis Frère wrote : > The best tool I know of is Glasnost > see http://glasnost.entrouvert.org/downloading > I don't know if there is an English doc yet, but it's pure Python. Thanks Denis. There is not yet English documentation (we only got a first release of the French docs early July, not yet translated). I can set up an installation fairly quickly if you need one or provide assistance if you want to install it on your server (it's not difficult provided the server runs Debian (either woody or sid)). I'm off to Oslo from tomorrow evening to the end of the week but should have net access. Regards, Frederic From andy@reportlab.com Tue Jul 15 15:57:58 2003 From: andy@reportlab.com (Andy Robinson) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:57:58 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] Voting structure on the web In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030714123115.01ed6cc8@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: > At 12:11 2003-07-14 +0200, Nicolas Chauvat wrote: > >PBF anyone ? > > I don't quite understand the question. He is suggesting to use the PBF instead of a new EEIG or whatever. I agree with this 100%. There is absolutely no point having a separate structure. It already has a bank account and legal status. The PBF can have "Special Interest Groups" with their own fees, membership rules and whatever. So the PBF could have a 'EuroPython-SIG' and any voting structure it wanted - decisions about conferences need not be limited to PBF members. And if there were, say, 3 key people not in the PBF, it's cheaper and easier to give them membership than to create a whole separate organisation. - Andy From paul@eurozope.org Tue Jul 15 15:54:47 2003 From: paul@eurozope.org (Paul Everitt) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:54:47 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Voting structure on the web In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <46EEEAD2-B6D4-11D7-A376-000393C2939A@eurozope.org> +1 --Paul On Tuesday, Jul 15, 2003, at 16:57 Europe/Paris, Andy Robinson wrote: >> At 12:11 2003-07-14 +0200, Nicolas Chauvat wrote: >>> PBF anyone ? >> >> I don't quite understand the question. > > He is suggesting to use the PBF instead of a new > EEIG or whatever. I agree with this 100%. There > is absolutely no point having a separate structure. > It already has a bank account and legal status. > > The PBF can have "Special Interest Groups" with their > own fees, membership rules and whatever. So the PBF could > have a 'EuroPython-SIG' and any voting structure it wanted > - decisions about conferences need not be limited to > PBF members. And if there were, say, 3 key people not in > the PBF, it's cheaper and easier to give them membership > than to create a whole separate organisation. > > - Andy > > > > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Tue Jul 15 16:26:05 2003 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:26:05 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Voting structure on the web In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030714123115.01ed6cc8@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <20030715152605.GD11172@logilab.fr> On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 03:57:58PM +0100, Andy Robinson wrote: > The PBF can have "Special Interest Groups" with their > own fees, membership rules and whatever. So the PBF could > have a 'EuroPython-SIG' and any voting structure it wanted > - decisions about conferences need not be limited to > PBF members. And if there were, say, 3 key people not in > the PBF, it's cheaper and easier to give them membership > than to create a whole separate organisation. Even better: SIG members need not be members of the PBF. This is already the case for the PIT SIG. -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France) From magnus@thinkware.se Wed Jul 16 02:10:52 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 03:10:52 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Voting structure on the web In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030713234348.01fadbc0@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030715210218.01ec2878@www.thinkware.se> At 14:04 2003-07-15 +0200, Andrew Smart wrote: >First the question should have been: for what kind of votes you are >going to use this voting system? Fair enough, but whatever questions plan to bring up, I think you are putting the cart in front of the horse if you set up some kind of technical voting system without a formal structure in place. You can ask people on a mailing list what their opinions are, or what they plan to do, so some kind of "polls" might take place, but voting requires a system. A vote is supposed to be an "act of power", not just an expression of opinions, and that requires some kind of governing rules, or it will just invite conflicts. But maybe you used the word "vote" in a wider meaning than I interpreted it? >If some small group here on the list makes the basic decissions there >is also a fair change that it will split the community. Agreed. But if the people who makes their voices heard on the list all agree, and noone opposes them on the list, I think that the others have given their silent approval or showed that they don't care. >The problem is to "bootstraping" the whole thing, on either way. But a technical solution for collecting votes can't solve the bootstrap problem. Collecting votes is simple. That's not the issue. Who has the right to formulate the questions? Who has the right to speak? Who has the right to say: "Enough said, we must vote now!" Who should interpret the votes? Who can vote? When is it right to put an issue to the vote? Who is bound by the result of the vote? To what degree? For how long? What can be done if results of votes are ignored? There are plenty of questions that overshadow the issue of counting votes. Unless the bigger questions are handled, there is no way to get credibility in a voting. Partly, the questions I placed above are handled by bylaws, but not all. For an organisation to be effective, we need to share a common goal, be open and understand each other. If we succeed in that, vote counting will be rare... -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de Wed Jul 16 06:18:10 2003 From: Andrew.Smart@smart-knowhow.de (Andrew Smart) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 07:18:10 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Voting structure on the web In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030715210218.01ec2878@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: europython-admin@python.org wrote: > At 14:04 2003-07-15 +0200, Andrew Smart wrote: >> First the question should have been: for what kind of votes you are >> going to use this voting system? > > Fair enough, but whatever questions plan to bring up, I think you > are putting the cart in front of the horse if you set up some kind > of technical voting system without a formal structure in place. I was asking "where is the horse and where is the cart?" > Agreed. But if the people who makes their voices heard on the list > all agree, and noone opposes them on the list, I think that the others > have given their silent approval or showed that they don't care. But you don't know if you have the silent approval, thats my point. So you can get ahead with 10 people and find yourself isolated without knowing. >> The problem is to "bootstraping" the whole thing, on either way. > > But a technical solution for collecting votes can't solve the > bootstrap problem. Collecting votes is simple. That's not the > issue. Who has the right to formulate the questions? Who has the > right to speak? Who has the right to say: "Enough said, we must > vote now!" Who should interpret the votes? Who can vote? When is > it right to put an issue to the vote? Who is bound by the result > of the vote? To what degree? For how long? What can be done if > results of votes are ignored? If you start a new democracy one of the first things you have to do is - define who is going to be allowed to vote (say: a phyisical area, boundaries, ages or so) - to register all possible voters The first step is more or less anarchy. If there is no structure, you don't have a structure. Point. So you can not use a structure to build up the structure. Point. If you talk about "bylaws" and "vote rules" you oversee in my opinion that you need to get enough people to accept this organisation to use the rules. But: the whole discussion is about founding this organisation. So you can not say "our" laws are the "bylaws" because currently no one is member of anything. To get the people to be member you'll have to found the stuff, and without anything you can not apply the bylaws or discussion rules. So "we" have to agree on procedures how to discuss about and how to found this organisation, and for this you need some voting tool. You need both: a horse and a cart to get off the ground. On way would be: "what the heck" and found with a few friends the EPC non-profit-organisation, announce it and try to use this organisation. Problem: you'll be ahead of the community and may cause the split you mentioned above. Andrew From mwh@python.net Wed Jul 16 11:38:17 2003 From: mwh@python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:38:17 +0100 Subject: [EuroPython] thoughts Message-ID: <2mwueipxie.fsf@starship.python.net> I have a feeling this talk of legal structures and decision procedures may somewhat be missing the point. The "EPC community", as I see it, has one (1) decision to make: Whether to hold the next EuroPython conference in Gothenbourg or Charleroi. (I don't think that there are any other serious contenders for location). _Everything_ else should be pretty much up to those who do the work, especially the local organizers but also to some extent the track chairs. It would be nice if these workers' discussions were open and others could contribute, but I strongly believe that the only real mandate to make decisions comes from willingness to do the work they imply. I also would stronly like the question mentioned above to be answered not by some kind of vote, but by consensus. I don't want the would-be local organizers who don't end up hosting the con to feel they've "lost", for all sorts of reasons. There was an unofficial deadline of August the 15th mentioned, and I *really* think we should stick to this, but AFAICT we're no closer to a decision than we were a fortnight ago. And finally, while I can see pros and cons of both the proposed locations, my own thoughts come out near as dammit to even. So that's not much of a discussion starter :-) What do others think? (Please place honesty over even-handedness...) Cheers, M. -- ZAPHOD: OK, so ten out of ten for style, but minus several million for good thinking, eh? -- The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, Episode 2 From paul@eurozope.org Wed Jul 16 14:24:45 2003 From: paul@eurozope.org (Paul Everitt) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:24:45 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] thoughts In-Reply-To: <2mwueipxie.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: On Wednesday, Jul 16, 2003, at 12:38 Europe/Paris, Michael Hudson wrote: > I have a feeling this talk of legal structures and decision procedures > may somewhat be missing the point. > > The "EPC community", as I see it, has one (1) decision to make: > > Whether to hold the next EuroPython conference in Gothenbourg or > Charleroi. I agree, this is the subject at hand. > (I don't think that there are any other serious contenders for > location). I agree on this also. The threshold should be pretty high for being a contender. We shouldn't let "wouldn't it be cool if" get muddled into the equation. > _Everything_ else should be pretty much up to those who do the work, > especially the local organizers but also to some extent the track Hurray! +1000. > chairs. It would be nice if these workers' discussions were open and > others could contribute, but I strongly believe that the only real > mandate to make decisions comes from willingness to do the work they > imply. Another thousand. :^) "Ok, so I do most of the crappy work for no money, and in fact I put my own money down as a deposit, and some distributed group of voters that only participate for voting tell me what to do?" Smells a bit gamey to me. :^) > I also would stronly like the question mentioned above to be answered > not by some kind of vote, but by consensus. I don't want the would-be > local organizers who don't end up hosting the con to feel they've > "lost", for all sorts of reasons. I completely agree. Just because we don't have formal bylaws doesn't mean we have anarchy. We know how to do the rough consensus thing for software. Hmm, maybe somebody should write a PEP for EPC2004. :^) We need a process that makes sure voices get heard and establishes buy-in amongst the groups that matter. We also need a process with a known conclusion. > There was an unofficial deadline of August the 15th mentioned, and I > *really* think we should stick to this, but AFAICT we're no closer to > a decision than we were a fortnight ago. I'm in favor of this process also. By August 15th, any alternatives to Charleroi should have a feasible plan emailed to this list. > And finally, while I can see pros and cons of both the proposed > locations, my own thoughts come out near as dammit to even. So that's > not much of a discussion starter :-) What do others think? (Please > place honesty over even-handedness...) Now that we've all agreed to the process...:^) we can start voicing our opinions. I think that Charleroi is a success and should be considered the incumbent. If someone else proposes a serious alternative that measures up well, then I'll probably support it. I will be vocally against moving for the sake of moving. --Paul From magnus@thinkware.se Wed Jul 16 14:43:13 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:43:13 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] thoughts In-Reply-To: <2mwueipxie.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030716145952.01fa4548@www.thinkware.se> At 11:38 2003-07-16 +0100, Michael Hudson wrote: >I have a feeling this talk of legal structures and decision procedures >may somewhat be missing the point. > >The "EPC community", as I see it, has one (1) decision to make: > > Whether to hold the next EuroPython conference in Gothenbourg or > Charleroi. This is certainly the one issue that can't wait... >I also would stronly like the question mentioned above to be answered >not by some kind of vote, but by consensus. I don't want the would-be >local organizers who don't end up hosting the con to feel they've >"lost", for all sorts of reasons. I agree completely! >And finally, while I can see pros and cons of both the proposed >locations, my own thoughts come out near as dammit to even. So that's >not much of a discussion starter :-) What do others think? (Please >place honesty over even-handedness...) Perhaps we should discuss more about what we want a really good EuroPython conference to be like. What qualities are important? In particular, what qualities that have to do with the location are important? The costs? Lodging? Getting there and moving around? The location--entertainment, sights, weather etc? The conference facilities: * Rooms (comfort, climate, acoustics etc) * Internet connections? * more? Sprint facilities? I'm sure there are other questions I'm sure people care about... If we are more concrete about what we want, it might be easier to figure out how well the different alternatives will work. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From magnus@thinkware.se Wed Jul 16 15:58:17 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:58:17 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <2mwueipxie.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030716154417.01f9b548@www.thinkware.se> At 15:24 2003-07-16 +0200, Paul Everitt wrote: >By August 15th, any alternatives to Charleroi should have a feasible plan= =20 >emailed to this list. Yes. I'm sure both Dario and the people at Strakt have lots of ideas, but the people on the list aren't mind readers. :) I think they need to visualize it better for people on the list to understand what EPC in G=F6teborg would be like. I also think it would be good if people on the list, especially those who feel sceptical about G=F6teborg, could ask questions, and explain what they want to know. It's easier to give the right answers if the questions are known... What are people concerned about? Prices? Communications? Conference facilities? The crews experience or commitment? Dario sent a rough budget, but that was for a conference with 100 attendants, and here we are rather talking about 250-300 people, so I assume we need one room with place for around 300, and two more with room for maybe 100 each? The Charleroi auditorium has 280 places. How many seats were there in rooms 1 and 2? (I think it's reasonable to plan for three rooms with parallel venues as we had this year.) -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language=20 From magnus@thinkware.se Wed Jul 16 15:59:15 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:59:15 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <2mwueipxie.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030716165839.01f9b128@www.thinkware.se> At 15:24 2003-07-16 +0200, Paul Everitt wrote: >By August 15th, any alternatives to Charleroi should have a feasible plan >emailed to this list. Of course, unless the plan for Charleroi is to be identical to this year, some kind of description of planned changes for EPC2004 in Charleroi would be nice too. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From faassen@vet.uu.nl Wed Jul 16 23:14:37 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 00:14:37 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Building up a structure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030716221437.GA8127@vet.uu.nl> Andrew Smart wrote: > This means: > - most of the EPC interested people have to become members of "something" > - there has to be some voting on decisions > - some the EPC interested people are going to be elected to implement the > decisions > - cash has to flow - either in some sort of membership fees or > for visiting the EPC (what kind of fee is choosen would be one of the > decisions to vote for). > > If there is a common understanding on this question (most of the people > say yes to most of the questions) THEN the questions of the legal body > arises. Yup, I'd say yes to those points. Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Wed Jul 16 23:18:06 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 00:18:06 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Motives and interests build structures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030716221806.GB8127@vet.uu.nl> Andrew Smart wrote: [snip motives] > I surely missed some interests/motives... This is a good effort. Many of these reasons, both personal and commercial, I share. I guess this defines someone who is willing to help out with the organization -- so many reasons exist. I mainly try to avoid long meetings on the PBF or Zope Europe, partially as I'm tired out already during the day.. :) Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Wed Jul 16 23:23:18 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 00:23:18 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Structure prototypes In-Reply-To: <007401c349e0$a7b84840$6500a8c0@WALTER> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030713233054.01fb5f58@www.thinkware.se> <007401c349e0$a7b84840$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <20030716222318.GC8127@vet.uu.nl> Dario Lopez-K=E4sten wrote: > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Magnus Lyck=E5" > > > >I would certainly prefer a community based approach for EPC. >=20 > me too. Me as well. This is speaking to someone who co-owns a company that depends on Python and Zope, too. I think it can still be that case that people who have business interests step up and do a large amount of the work. The community *is* a business interest. [snip] > I will be away from a computer startign tomorrow for 2 weeks (I'll be a= broad > on vacation with my family) so I'll be able to read mail again from Aug= ust > 30. (If I can manage to sneak my laptop as part of the luggage, there i= s a > small chance I might be able to read mail from the hotel ;-). I hope this meant 'july 30'. :) Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Wed Jul 16 23:30:56 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 00:30:56 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Structure prototypes In-Reply-To: References: <007401c349e0$a7b84840$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <20030716223056.GD8127@vet.uu.nl> Andrew Smart wrote: > But I have to be convinced that "the community" is willing and able > to organize themself in a way which makes the next EPC possible. > > The last both events has been "on the shoulders" of some few peoples, > who made a terrific job and two beatiful conferences. If we talk about > "community" then my impression is that the weight is going to be > put on more shoulders, at least considering the risks. The group of active organizers for this year (and the number probably was a bit bigger last year, but not much bigger) involved around 15-20 people, I think. We've had 9 track chairs, some of whom were also active in other organization. We had 5 (not sure here?) people active locally, including Denis. Then there are people like Tom and Joachim Schmitz. I'm probably forgetting others now in a shameful fashion! > I fear the passing the organisational structure in the hand of an > anonymus group of people will cause the effect that many people don't > feal responsible for the success. This was of course an important problem we had this year and last year. > And having a organisational structure > the last organisers will - with any right - give away the responsibility > to said organisation. I'm not sure I parse this line. Hopefully the current organizers will continue on helping out with the new organization. Or actually *being* the organization is likely more correct. :) > What happens then? Who is going to take the lead? Of what? That's a good question. I think this can at least in part be answered by a kind of membership system, assuming the members will be smart enough to vote in the right people. :) Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Wed Jul 16 23:34:58 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 00:34:58 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Who is "the community" & voting In-Reply-To: References: <003601c34aad$bd63fc70$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <20030716223458.GE8127@vet.uu.nl> Andrew Smart wrote: > I think one of the key questions is: > > Who is the community, after all? > > All members on the mailing list? Not this, I'd say. > All visitors? "Probably" > All organisators? Definitely. I made an earlier suggestion to make the organization consist of members. Someone is a member if they: * pay a certain fee. This doesn't need to be a high fee. and possibly we can also institute the following rule: * if someone visited a EuroPython conference less than N years ago, this person is a member/gets a vote. This means that all visitors are members. > How we are else going to "count votes"? What about that proposal? Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Wed Jul 16 23:49:21 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 00:49:21 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Voting structure on the web In-Reply-To: <20030715152605.GD11172@logilab.fr> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030714123115.01ed6cc8@www.thinkware.se> <20030715152605.GD11172@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <20030716224921.GF8127@vet.uu.nl> [PBF advocacy] Well, I'll just summarize a few of the points against, as some people seem to have missed them in earlier threads. Financial/responsibility: * PBF board will hold responsibility for the budget. * Conference budget likely will far outweigh that of the current PBF. * PBF board will therefore need to exercise the purse strings carefully. * PBF board is not controlled by the EuroPython SIG members. This issue is to my mind the more important one. The PBF board in particular and the PBF members (who may have nothing to do with EuroPython as they may be in, say, Australia) will have an influence on the EPC organization that may not be desired. And more community perception oriented: * PBF stands for 'Python Business Forum' and the purpose is to organize and promote the interests of *companies*. * This could discourage some people who do not participate in a company, for instance those who work at an institution, as well as those who are Python enthusiasts without Python jobs. * The Python community is larger than those who people who control/influence their companies. * EuroPython is a conference for this community; it's not a Python Business Conference (this is a track and what business that goes on is important, but so is the diversity among attendees). Note that I'm just summarizing some of the feelings that I and others have; this doesn't mean I in particular am proposing any of these as clinching arguments *against* the PBF. I'd just like to see better arguments *for* using the PBF than just saying they already have an organization and a bankroll. To make this a bit more clear, I'll ask a slightly naughty question: Why is nobody proposing we become part of the P*S*F (The Python Software Foundation)? This after has an organization and a bankroll, and also has in its mission statement the following: * Publicizes, promotes the adoption of, and facilitates the ongoing development of Python-related technology and educational resources. This includes, but is not limited to, maintaining a public web site, planning Python conferences, and offering grants to Python-related open source projects. Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Wed Jul 16 23:55:20 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 00:55:20 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Voting structure on the web In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030715210218.01ec2878@www.thinkware.se> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030713234348.01fadbc0@www.thinkware.se> <5.2.1.1.0.20030715210218.01ec2878@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <20030716225520.GG8127@vet.uu.nl> Magnus Lyck=E5 wrote: [snip good points] > Partly, the questions I placed above are handled by bylaws, but not > all. For an organisation to be effective, we need to share a common > goal, be open and understand each other. If we succeed in that, vote > counting will be rare... I think these are good points. You can complain that then nobody voted for the bylaws and a cabal set them up, but yes, this is a bootstrapping issue and this is how one commonly bootstraps such a thing. * You form a consensus that such an organization is necessary. * You propose a structure for it. * If most people seem to be of one mind on it still, you take a risk and create it.=20 * People join up. * People vote according to the rules, and can vote to *change the rules= *. (the rules allow this) * The organization evolves. If you do it badly one way or the other, people will vote with their feet and not join up or leave it.=20 We're not so stupid that we cannot set up a reasonably fair set of bylaws; there are precendents, after all. Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Thu Jul 17 00:07:07 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:07:07 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Voting structure on the web In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030715210218.01ec2878@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <20030716230707.GH8127@vet.uu.nl> Andrew Smart wrote: > > Agreed. But if the people who makes their voices heard on the list > > all agree, and noone opposes them on the list, I think that the others > > have given their silent approval or showed that they don't care. > > But you don't know if you have the silent approval, thats my point. > So you can get ahead with 10 people and find yourself isolated without > knowing. You put up a proposal. You announce it widely. You ask people to comment. If people object, you adjust. If people don't and you get some positive responses, you decide to take a chance and go ahead. You could take a poll along the way, but this doesn't make it more fair and democratic if it's unclear who sets up the poll and the questions, and who gets to vote. A poll is then just another tool to gauge interest, and we may use this if this is deemed important. Just look at the poll comp.lang.python came up with for the conditional expression for an example on how voting itself can take a wrong turn without a system in place. (they designed the voting system along with the options to vote for, and it was *complicated*, undemocratically designed, and didn't allow one to vote 'no'. The main good thing about it was that it had many options, so it was inclusive there). [snip] > If you start a new democracy one of the first things you have to > do is > - define who is going to be allowed to vote (say: a phyisical > area, boundaries, ages or so) > - to register all possible voters > > The first step is more or less anarchy. If there is no structure, > you don't have a structure. Point. So you can not use a structure > to build up the structure. Point. So let's discuss this structure before we worry about a vote? > If you talk about "bylaws" and "vote rules" you oversee in my opinion > that you need to get enough people to accept this organisation to use > the rules. But: the whole discussion is about founding this > organisation. So you can not say "our" laws are the "bylaws" because > currently no one is member of anything. To get the people to be > member you'll have to found the stuff, and without anything you > can not apply the bylaws or discussion rules. So far I can follow this. > So "we" have to agree > on procedures how to discuss about and how to found this organisation, > and for this you need some voting tool. I disagree with this. The procedure to decide on a good structure is *not* the use of a voting tool. How you set up a good structure is a free and open discussion and the formation of a rough consensus. Magnus already asked the questions; who is going to come up with the votes, where will the vote be announced, who will interpret the vote? Answer: we need a rough consensus on this. So let's form this consensus and come up with some rules on the vote. Then perhaps we can find members and have a vote. The point is not about voting though; it's about getting a transparent organization to work. Voting is a means to accomplish this, not a goal. > You need both: a horse and > a cart to get off the ground. > > On way would be: "what the heck" and found with a few friends > the EPC non-profit-organisation, announce it and try to use this > organisation. Problem: you'll be ahead of the community and may > cause the split you mentioned above. The answer on how to bootstrap things can *only* be a considered 'what the heck'. How do you avoid running ahead of the community? You announce the intention to form the organization first. You give people time to respond. This allows interested members of the community to come and participate. Regards, Martijn From magnus@thinkware.se Thu Jul 17 00:13:48 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:13:48 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Voting structure on the web In-Reply-To: <20030716224921.GF8127@vet.uu.nl> References: <20030715152605.GD11172@logilab.fr> <5.2.1.1.0.20030714123115.01ed6cc8@www.thinkware.se> <20030715152605.GD11172@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030717010301.01faff48@www.thinkware.se> At 00:49 2003-07-17 +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: >[PBF advocacy] > >Well, I'll just summarize a few of the points against, as some people >seem to have missed them in earlier threads. > >Financial/responsibility: > > * PBF board will hold responsibility for the budget. > > * Conference budget likely will far outweigh that of the current PBF. > > * PBF board will therefore need to exercise the purse strings > carefully. > > * PBF board is not controlled by the EuroPython SIG members. Agreed. A EPC SIG under PBF can't be truly independent. I'm don't really think this will be a problem in practice though. It's easy to get a EPC SIG started, and if it turns out to cause problems, I'm sure we can create an independent entity. Naturally, there is a worst case scenario where being part of PBF becomes an acute problem in the middle of EPC preparations, but that seems a bit far fetched for me. It seems obvious to me that PBF would loose very much by causing problems for EPC. >This issue is to my mind the more important one. The PBF board >in particular and the PBF members (who may have nothing to do >with EuroPython as they may be in, say, Australia) will have >an influence on the EPC organization that may not be desired. But if you look at the current PBF board members, you see a very big overlap with EPC people. To me that is a reason not to form a second organisation. It's would be a bit like all of us just changed hats. PBF and EPC is fairly close to being the same people. The PBF general assembly takes place at EPC, and a majority of the board members are on this mailing list. All board members live in Europe, and Aragne, eGenix, Tim Couper etc are all members. >Why is nobody proposing we become part of the P*S*F Because PSF has much more focus on USA, and much less overlap with the EuroPython community? -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From faassen@vet.uu.nl Thu Jul 17 00:14:25 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:14:25 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] thoughts In-Reply-To: <2mwueipxie.fsf@starship.python.net> References: <2mwueipxie.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <20030716231425.GI8127@vet.uu.nl> Michael Hudson wrote: > I have a feeling this talk of legal structures and decision procedures > may somewhat be missing the point. > > The "EPC community", as I see it, has one (1) decision to make: > > Whether to hold the next EuroPython conference in Gothenbourg or > Charleroi. > > (I don't think that there are any other serious contenders for > location). I think there are two other points where a structure can help and where unclarity right now exists: * transparancy of the budget * who is responsible for the important decisions (such as location, but this is not the only thing. Imagine I was organizing the conference and announced we were going to have a C++ and a Java track) > _Everything_ else should be pretty much up to those who do the work, > especially the local organizers but also to some extent the track > chairs. It would be nice if these workers' discussions were open and > others could contribute, but I strongly believe that the only real > mandate to make decisions comes from willingness to do the work they > imply. I agree that the mandate should go to those who are willing to do the work and are capable of doing the work. A more formal structure can help in making this mandate clear; this mandate goes to the elected board (which may delegate). Of course people who are not willing to do the work should not stand for election. People who are not deemed to respresent the interests well enough can also be voted out. Generally it's not all that formal, but the idea that you *can* have a voice if you want to is important; just like I like having the feeling I can dive into the Python source code if I really want to, even though normally I don't have to. Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Thu Jul 17 00:21:19 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:21:19 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] thoughts In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030716165839.01f9b128@www.thinkware.se> References: <2mwueipxie.fsf@starship.python.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20030716165839.01f9b128@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <20030716232119.GJ8127@vet.uu.nl> Magnus Lyck=E5 wrote: > At 15:24 2003-07-16 +0200, Paul Everitt wrote: > >By August 15th, any alternatives to Charleroi should have a feasible p= lan=20 > >emailed to this list. >=20 > Of course, unless the plan for Charleroi is to be identical > to this year, some kind of description of planned changes > for EPC2004 in Charleroi would be nice too. A budget would also be nice, so we can compare feasibility on those grounds as well. Of course if we don't have a more formal organization nobody really has the right to ask for any budget, and what happens if we have two vocal blocks who both want the another location? This is why we really need a more formal organization, folks.. The thing I objected to most in the beginning was *not* the choice of Charleroi as a location for EPC 2004. What I objected to was the unclear process by which this choice had been made and announced. We really need at least an idea of what this process will be like before we can even know what a 'decision' means! I don't want to replace Denis and Tom=20 with "an assortment of active people and people on the mailing list".=20 Regards, Martijn From magnus@thinkware.se Thu Jul 17 00:28:04 2003 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:28:04 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Who is "the community" & voting In-Reply-To: <20030716223458.GE8127@vet.uu.nl> References: <003601c34aad$bd63fc70$6500a8c0@WALTER> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030717011445.01fe9270@www.thinkware.se> At 00:34 2003-07-17 +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: > * if someone visited a EuroPython conference less than N years > ago, this person is a member/gets a vote. This means that all visitors > are members. I'd like to adjust this item to something like "If someone attended the previous EuroPython conference, this person does not have to pay a membership fee to be a member." I think membership in an organisation should always be the result of an active decision by the member. In Sweden, members of labour unions have been collectively made members of the Socialdemocratic Party, and until not long ago, people where automatically made members of the Swedish state church at birth if a parent was a member. I think this has made most thinking Swedes a bit allergic to all suggestions of automatic membership... It's fine with me that paying the conference fee will mean that membership in the EPC society will be for free the next year, and that EPC visitors are *invited* to become members, but I think it's important that no person or organisation becomes a member without actively stating that they want that. I think that is important both for the EPC society and for the members. No person should feel that "these guys claim that they represent me, and I didn't say I wanted that". Also, the society should not have members that just ended up members by default, but don't really care about the community. -- Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyckå), magnus@thinkware.se Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language From faassen@vet.uu.nl Sat Jul 19 00:38:27 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 01:38:27 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Voting structure on the web In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030717010301.01faff48@www.thinkware.se> References: <20030715152605.GD11172@logilab.fr> <5.2.1.1.0.20030714123115.01ed6cc8@www.thinkware.se> <20030715152605.GD11172@logilab.fr> <5.2.1.1.0.20030717010301.01faff48@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <20030718233827.GA20868@vet.uu.nl> Magnus Lyck=E5 wrote: > At 00:49 2003-07-17 +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: > >This issue is to my mind the more important one. The PBF board > >in particular and the PBF members (who may have nothing to do > >with EuroPython as they may be in, say, Australia) will have > >an influence on the EPC organization that may not be desired. >=20 > But if you look at the current PBF board members, you see a very > big overlap with EPC people. To me that is a reason not to form > a second organisation. It's would be a bit like all of us just > changed hats. PBF and EPC is fairly close to being the same > people. The PBF general assembly takes place at EPC, and a > majority of the board members are on this mailing list. All board > members live in Europe, and Aragne, eGenix, Tim Couper etc are all > members. Yes, but it's not in the PBF statutes that it should support Python in Europe in particular. This is slightly bothersome. > >Why is nobody proposing we become part of the P*S*F >=20 > Because PSF has much more focus on USA, and much less overlap > with the EuroPython community? That's not in the statutes of the PSF either. :) Any EuroPython organization will have to be explicitly European in nature. This may work as part of the PBF as I think most of my=20 objections are perceptual and formal in nature, and not so much that the people won't be able to get along. On the other hand, these issues may come to bite us eventually. Then again, spinning the thing off at a later stage remains a possibility. So I dunno. Regards, Martijn From faassen@vet.uu.nl Sat Jul 19 00:39:53 2003 From: faassen@vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 01:39:53 +0200 Subject: [EuroPython] Who is "the community" & voting In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030717011445.01fe9270@www.thinkware.se> References: <003601c34aad$bd63fc70$6500a8c0@WALTER> <5.2.1.1.0.20030717011445.01fe9270@www.thinkware.se> Message-ID: <20030718233953.GB20868@vet.uu.nl> Magnus Lyck=E5 wrote: > At 00:34 2003-07-17 +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: > > * if someone visited a EuroPython conference less than N years > > ago, this person is a member/gets a vote. This means that all visi= tors > > are members. [snip]=20 > It's fine with me that paying the conference fee will mean > that membership in the EPC society will be for free the next > year, and that EPC visitors are *invited* to become members, > but I think it's important that no person or organisation > becomes a member without actively stating that they want that. Makes sense, sounds fine to me. > I think that is important both for the EPC society and for the > members. No person should feel that "these guys claim that they > represent me, and I didn't say I wanted that". Also, the society > should not have members that just ended up members by default, > but don't really care about the community. Agreed. Good points. Regards, Martijn