From faassen at vet.uu.nl  Tue Aug  5 15:57:50 2003
From: faassen at vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Tue Aug  5 08:57:55 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] progress?
Message-ID: <20030805125750.GA4781@vet.uu.nl>

Hey,

We don't seem to be making much progress lately. I guess everybody
is busy with vacations, but the 15 august 'deadline' is looming.

We need to have at least some basic ideas in place:

  * where will be go with the organization. If it is to be
    the PBF, I'd like to see a good case for it, answering the
    possible objections. If it's going to be something else, the
    same story (Denis? Dario?).

    Whatever route we go, we need to make our intentions clear to the
    world who may not be reading this list, so that people know what's
    going on.

  * location choice. How will be choose locations? In my mind, what we need 
    at least is concrete proposals for each location. Each proposal
    needs a general description, a list of advantages/drawbacks/problems to
    be solved/preconditions, and a preliminary idea of the budget. How we 
    end up choosing locations depends on the results of the first process
    as well.

Since we don't have much time for either, we need some form of rough
consensus at least to determine how we proceed. Do we have such a consensus?

What are the main stumbling blocks towards forming consensus about
both topics?

We had a bunch of meta-meta decisions about who decides
how we decide and such, possible technical solutions concerning
online voting, etc, etc, but I personally would very much like to 
avoid going through all that again, instead focusing on what consensus we 
have and what we need to work out still. 

It would be unfair to wait until the 15th of august until
the location choice just defaults, or worse yet, there is no location at all!

Regards,

Martijn


From mwh at python.net  Tue Aug  5 15:09:52 2003
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Tue Aug  5 09:09:59 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] progress?
In-Reply-To: <20030805125750.GA4781@vet.uu.nl> (Martijn Faassen's message of
	"Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:57:50 +0200")
References: <20030805125750.GA4781@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <2m4r0wqmhr.fsf@starship.python.net>

Martijn Faassen <faassen@vet.uu.nl> writes:

> Hey,
>
> We don't seem to be making much progress lately. I guess everybody
> is busy with vacations, but the 15 august 'deadline' is looming.

I was thinking similar thoughts.

> We need to have at least some basic ideas in place:
>
>   * where will be go with the organization. If it is to be
>     the PBF, I'd like to see a good case for it, answering the
>     possible objections. If it's going to be something else, the
>     same story (Denis? Dario?).
>
>     Whatever route we go, we need to make our intentions clear to the
>     world who may not be reading this list, so that people know what's
>     going on.

Yes.  Generally speaking, if the local organizers are prepared to be
almost all of the formal organization (as in the last two years) I
think we should let them.  OTOH, this shouldn't be enforced, either.
But I think it depends what they want.

>   * location choice. How will be choose locations? In my mind, what we need 
>     at least is concrete proposals for each location. 

Indeed.

>   Each proposal needs a general description, a list of
>   advantages/drawbacks/problems to be solved/preconditions, and a
>   preliminary idea of the budget. How we end up choosing locations
>   depends on the results of the first process as well.
>
> Since we don't have much time for either, we need some form of rough
> consensus at least to determine how we proceed. Do we have such a consensus?

I think some wilful ignoring of opinions might be necessary <wink>,
but I bet we can sort this out.

> What are the main stumbling blocks towards forming consensus about
> both topics?

Well, the location decision needs a clear laying out of the choices.
This means more work for the Gothenbourg people, I guess.

> It would be unfair to wait until the 15th of august until the
> location choice just defaults, or worse yet, there is no location at
> all!

Indeed!

Is Dario back from vacation yet?

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  The PROPER way to handle HTML postings is to cancel the article,
  then hire a hitman to kill the poster, his wife and kids, and fuck
  his dog and smash his computer into little bits. Anything more is
  just extremism.                                 -- Paul Tomblin, asr

From tom at aragne.com  Tue Aug  5 16:56:21 2003
From: tom at aragne.com (Tom Deprez)
Date: Tue Aug  5 09:52:18 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] progress?
References: <20030805125750.GA4781@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <011801c35b59$63053b10$897ba8c0@skullsplitter>

Funny, I wanted to write an email about the pressure of this topic this
evening. Now it isn't needed anymore :-)
Okay, I hope things get sorted out.

Regards,
Tom.

> Hey,
>
> We don't seem to be making much progress lately. I guess everybody
> is busy with vacations, but the 15 august 'deadline' is looming.
>
> We need to have at least some basic ideas in place:
>
>   * where will be go with the organization. If it is to be
>     the PBF, I'd like to see a good case for it, answering the
>     possible objections. If it's going to be something else, the
>     same story (Denis? Dario?).
>
>     Whatever route we go, we need to make our intentions clear to the
>     world who may not be reading this list, so that people know what's
>     going on.
>
>   * location choice. How will be choose locations? In my mind, what
>     we need at least is concrete proposals for each location. Each
>     proposal needs a general description, a list of
>     advantages/drawbacks/problems to be solved/preconditions, and a
>     preliminary idea of the budget. How we end up choosing locations
>     depends on the results of the first process as well.
>
> Since we don't have much time for either, we need some form of rough
> consensus at least to determine how we proceed. Do we have such a
> consensus?
>
> What are the main stumbling blocks towards forming consensus about
> both topics?
>
> We had a bunch of meta-meta decisions about who decides
> how we decide and such, possible technical solutions concerning
> online voting, etc, etc, but I personally would very much like to
> avoid going through all that again, instead focusing on what
> consensus we have and what we need to work out still.
>
> It would be unfair to wait until the 15th of august until
> the location choice just defaults, or worse yet, there is no location
> at all!
>
> Regards,
>
> Martijn
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython


From jacob at strakt.com  Fri Aug  8 06:47:36 2003
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Thu Aug  7 23:48:07 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] =?iso-8859-1?q?G=F6teborg?= proposal, draft
Message-ID: <200308080348.h783m3Kx018619@theraft.strakt.com>

This is a brief draft that I made a while ago. Laura and I have caught some 
bad illness in our travels and have been out of commission for 2 weeks now, 
so I'm sending this off without the editing it really needs, so that you all 
have a chance to see our intentions and plans before you need to decide.

Dar?o isn't explicitly mentioned in this, but he has seen the draft. I would 
consider it bad form to write him in without his approval of the text about 
his virtues.

Jacob Hall?n
_____________________________________________________________
We propose to hold EuroPython 2004 in G?teborg, Sweden during the
summer of 2004. We would like to know what times are the most
popular. To have access to our planned facilities, we should aim for
sometime between 7 June and 15 August.

We have the following items to consider in our proposal:

Experience
==========
Jacob Hall?n has arranged the Gothcon Games Convention for up to 1200
people for several years, has done banquets for over 80 people and has
in general done a lot of different arrangements for many
people. Europython is a small and manageable conference in comparison
with the other events.

Laura Creighton has several years of experience from renaissance
festivals and other events.

We have employees with similar experience and friends at Chalmers who
are interested in helping out. We also have contacts all over the
Python community, which should allow us to put together a broad team
of organisers.

Cheaper conference venue
========================
We aim to hold the conference at Chalmers University of Technology.
We do not currently have figures for costs, but they should be substantially
under what CEME charges.

More space
==========
We would probably have 3 large auditoriums and 2 smaller ones.

Better Aucoustics
=================
The rooms are regular lecture halls with good aucoustics. They do not
need any loudspeakers.

High speed Internet link
========================
Chalmers has more than enough capacity and we have enough equipment to
wire the whole conference.

Cheap accomodation
==================
AB Strakt has a contract with a company with tourist apartments for
letting rooms. Currently about EU 20/night for single and EU 30/night
for doubles. Walking distance from the conference venue.

Hotels often have very affordable summer prices. G?teborg is a great
magnet for exhibitions and conferences in winter.

Fairly good travel to G?teborg
==============================
Ryanair flies from Stanstead and Frankfurt Hahn. Virgin Express from
Brussels. Malm? Aviation from Nice. Stirling Airways from Spain and
Italy.
Connections with the more expensive airlines from all over Europe.
Ferries from Newcastle, Fredrikshavn and Kiel. Trains from Denmark,
Norway and all of Sweden.
Cheap buses from several places on the continent.

Good local transportation
=========================
Trams and buses run often. Airport buses are reasonably cheap and
frequent.

Food costs
==========
Lunch is cheap. Dinner ranges from reasonable to very expensive. We
have some very high quality restaurants in town. We would probably
want to arrange a conference dinner.

Alcohol
=======
Alcohol is fairly expensive in restaurants. A normal beer will be
about EU 3.

Water
=====
The tap water is not only drinkable, it tastes good.

Tourism
=======
Lots of things to do for spouses and families. Museums, nature,
amusement park, botanical garden, openair zoo... Combine the conference
with a vacation.

Sprint space
============
We will have sprint space available from the Friday before the conference.

Ideas
=====
Instructions to speakers on how to make better talks
	Font sizes
	Number of topics to cover
	Audience
	Focus
	Timing
Equipment testing sessions every day
Technical assistance desk
Openspace talks
Refereed paper track
Special events
	Consult the bots
	Small sessions with key people
Exhibitors/Product demonstrations
Reception
Speakers dinner
Tutorial day before the conference
Birds Of a Feather (BOF) sessions
Conference space open late for meetings and BOFs
Conference server - news, gossip, reports, copies of presentations,
collaborative development happening

To think about
==============
Clear names on badges
Speakers, crew and others clearly visible
Directions
Advertising and convincing people to come
Twist arms of interesting speakers
What keynotes would people like to hear?

Timing to consider
==================
Set dates for conference		late August
Book space				early September
Announcing the conference		September
Session chairs				done by 1 October
Session outline				October
Request for papers			1 November
Request for talks			January?
Publishing the programme		1 March
Registration deadlines
Cutoff date for cheap accomodation

Volunteers needed
=================
Session chairs
Web developers
Graphics designer
Special events organiser
Sponsor contact
Programme author

From jacob at strakt.com  Fri Aug  8 07:27:35 2003
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Fri Aug  8 00:28:07 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Comments on discussion and vote proposal
Message-ID: <200308080428.h784S1Kx019314@theraft.strakt.com>

I have just caught up with the discussion on the list, and I think the 
discussion has been very constructive. In summary, I would say that
almost everyone have the same goals, while the means of reaching them 
vary widely. 

I think it is obvious that we need to have some formal body that signs the 
contracts. Otherwise we are actually risking the economy of the individual 
volunteers who are arranging the conference, or the finances of the companies 
that back them. Really bad things can happen. With a non-profit organisation, 
your liability is limited to what the organisation owns.

In the choice between building a new non-profit organisation, or making a SIG 
under the PBF, there are arguments for and against each alternative. The one 
thing that speaks for the PBF is that all the formal work has already been 
done. Against is the fact that the PBF needs to excert some fiscal control 
over EPC, in order to keep the risk to the society and any other assets the 
society has to a minimum. A new organisation would be able to build its own 
rules but would also have to build its own infrastructure, with board, 
general assembly, bank accounts, accounting, auditing etc.

Personally, I think the two alternatives balance in attractiveness and I'm 
not advocating either one.

Speaking as the chairman of the PBF, I would welcome having the EPC as a SIG. 
While it would significantly increase the financial risk of the PBF, it would 
at the same time raise the profile of the PBF.

Now for something completely different! How to resolve the current issues of 
who gets to vote on A) which organisation form we should have and B) where 
the next EPC is to be held.

I propose that the 9 (?) track chairmen from last EPC get to vote and that 
they make the decision by simple majority. My rationale for this is that they 
are a clearly identifiable group, they are not directly linked to either of 
the proposed sites and they are the people who are most likely to make the 
better choice for the EPC. I know this excludes some people who have worked 
very hard for the EPC and who deserve a say. I'm asking all these people to 
trust the track chairmen to make the right choice for them.

Jacob

From tom at aragne.com  Fri Aug  8 12:18:39 2003
From: tom at aragne.com (Tom Deprez)
Date: Fri Aug  8 05:14:19 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Comments on discussion and vote proposal
References: <200308080428.h784S1Kx019314@theraft.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <010201c35d8e$0f0a7a70$897ba8c0@skullsplitter>

<snip>

> Now for something completely different! How to resolve the current
> issues of who gets to vote on A) which organisation form we should
> have and B) where the next EPC is to be held.
>
> I propose that the 9 (?) track chairmen from last EPC get to vote and
> that they make the decision by simple majority. My rationale for this
> is that they are a clearly identifiable group, they are not directly
> linked to either of the proposed sites and they are the people who
> are most likely to make the better choice for the EPC. I know this
> excludes some people who have worked very hard for the EPC and who
> deserve a say. I'm asking all these people to trust the track
> chairmen to make the right choice for them.

Yes, I think this is a good proposal for having the decission concerning
conference place on the right time (ie soon, if we want to have an
EP2004)

Tom.

> Jacob
>
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython


From magnus at thinkware.se  Sun Aug 10 04:32:53 2003
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=)
Date: Sat Aug  9 21:25:36 2003
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[EuroPython]_G=F6teborg_proposal,_draft?=
In-Reply-To: <200308080348.h783m3Kx018619@theraft.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030810030025.02107258@www.thinkware.se>

Nice to see something here at last!

At 05:47 2003-08-08 +0200, Jacob Hall?n wrote:
>Stirling Airways from Spain and Italy.

I think that's "Sterling Airways" for some strange reason.
(Danish spelling? :)

>Tourism
>=======
>Lots of things to do for spouses and families. Museums, nature,
>amusement park, botanical garden, openair zoo... Combine the conference
>with a vacation.

And...

The G?teborg concert hall is one of the best in the world
from an acoustic point of view. http://www.gso.se/

There are usually nice events in G?teborg in the summer.
If EPC2003 had been in G?teborg, you could have combined it
with a Bruce Springsteen concert. See e.g.
http://www.marcus.tillberg.net/bilder/bruce2003/

There is more about G?teborg at http://www.goteborg.com/

The bus/tram tickets are also valid (same price as inside town)
for trips with ferries in the south archipelago outside G?teborg.
Don't miss that!

A recent attraction is the replica of an old East Indies trading
ship that was recently launched. http://www.soic.se/

So be sure to stay a few extra days if EPC 2004 ends up in
G?teborg.


--
Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language 


From gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de  Mon Aug 11 09:43:33 2003
From: gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman)
Date: Mon Aug 11 02:44:04 2003
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[EuroPython]_G=F6teborg_proposal,_draft?=
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030810030025.02107258@www.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <2060CACB-CBC7-11D7-A4A2-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de>

Magnus Lyck?:

> If EPC2003 had been in G?teborg, you could have combined it
> with a Bruce Springsteen concert. See e.g.
> http://www.marcus.tillberg.net/bilder/bruce2003/

If I only had known that...

Dinu

--
Dinu C. Gherman
......................................................................
"If something is repeated over and over as obvious, the chances are
that it is obviously false." (Noam Chomsky)

From listmanager at lists.ZATZ.com  Sat Aug  9 11:11:07 2003
From: listmanager at lists.ZATZ.com (Computing Unplugged Magazine)
Date: Mon Aug 11 04:25:31 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Computing Unplugged - We review the Pocketop Keyboard
Message-ID: <E19m7za-00021A-00@mail.python.org>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20030809/3e82164a/attachment-0001.htm
From mwh at python.net  Mon Aug 11 11:43:40 2003
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug 11 05:43:42 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] europython issue tracker offline
Message-ID: <2mhe4or0kz.fsf@starship.python.net>

The starship is moving homes soon, as somewhat as a consequence of
this the tracker I set up is currently offline.

It should be back sometime in September.  If it's urgent, it can be
put back before then...

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  > Look I don't know.  Thankyou everyone for arguing me round in
  > circles.
  No need for thanks, ma'am; that's what we're here for.
                                    -- LNR & Michael M Mason, cam.misc

From mwh at python.net  Mon Aug 11 12:40:56 2003
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug 11 06:40:59 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Comments on discussion and vote proposal
In-Reply-To: <200308080428.h784S1Kx019314@theraft.strakt.com> (Jacob
	=?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n's?= message of "Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:27:35 +0200")
References: <200308080428.h784S1Kx019314@theraft.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <2m1xvsqxxj.fsf@starship.python.net>

Jacob Hall?n <jacob@strakt.com> writes:

> I propose that the 9 (?) track chairmen from last EPC get to vote and that 
> they make the decision by simple majority.

This seems reasonable to me.

According to http://europython.org/sessions/descriptions the track
chairs were:

Anna Ravenscroft
Moshe Zadka
Martijn Faassen
Michael Hudson
Tim Couper
Marc-Andre Lemburg
Nicolas Chauvat
Paul Everitt
Heimo Laukkanen

(This is an odd number, probably a good thing :-) 

How do we hold the vote?  A simple approach would be for everyone on
the above list to email me their preference and me to email the votes
to the voters and the results to this list.  Or someone else can take
this role (I'm not sure it would be a good idea to hold the vote in
public).

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  I don't remember any dirty green trousers.
                                             -- Ian Jackson, ucam.chat

From magnus at thinkware.se  Mon Aug 11 15:03:36 2003
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=)
Date: Mon Aug 11 07:56:18 2003
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[EuroPython]_G=F6teborg_proposal,_draft?=
In-Reply-To: <2060CACB-CBC7-11D7-A4A2-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030810030025.02107258@www.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030811132349.0526dc10@www.thinkware.se>

At 08:43 2003-08-11 +0200, Dinu Gherman wrote:
>Magnus Lyck?:
>>If EPC2003 had been in G?teborg, you could have combined it
>>with a Bruce Springsteen concert. See e.g.
>>http://www.marcus.tillberg.net/bilder/bruce2003/
>
>If I only had known that...

Do I sense a touch of irony here?

My point was just that G?teborg is a place worth visiting in
the summer, and there are absolutely no polar bears in the
streets!

As far as I know, events on Ullevi in June next year aren't
scheduled yet, so we can't plan after that... The UEFA cup
final is too early for EPC (May 19). :)


--
Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language 


From magnus at thinkware.se  Mon Aug 11 16:04:12 2003
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=)
Date: Mon Aug 11 08:56:55 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Comments on discussion and vote proposal
In-Reply-To: <2m1xvsqxxj.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <200308080428.h784S1Kx019314@theraft.strakt.com>
	<200308080428.h784S1Kx019314@theraft.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030811141330.05294e28@www.thinkware.se>

At 11:40 2003-08-11 +0100, Michael Hudson wrote:
> > I propose that the 9 (?) track chairmen from last EPC get to vote and that
> > they make the decision by simple majority.
>
>This seems reasonable to me.

Me too, but I'm a bit puzzled by the grave silence on this
list. If it means that people are still on vacation and not
reading their mail, we might have a lot of surprised people
in some time...

If there is a consensus that these nine can decide, I guess
it's up to them to ask for the information they feel that
they need to make up their minds.

>How do we hold the vote?  A simple approach would be for everyone on
>the above list to email me their preference and me to email the votes
>to the voters and the results to this list.  Or someone else can take
>this role

Fine with me. Are you referring to both votes now? Location
and organizational form?

For location, I guess it's clear that you have two options:
Charleroi and G?teborg. Voting about this seems simple enough,
and I guess it's the most pressing issue.

For EPC organization, we've heard several different suggestions,
from "do nothing" via PBF SIG to several types of legal bodies.
Of course, if a majority of the nine chosen ones agree on one of
the proposed alternatives, it's all fine, but if not, I guess you
need to make the decision making process a bit more sophisticated...


--
Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language 


From mwh at python.net  Mon Aug 11 15:05:21 2003
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug 11 09:05:28 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Comments on discussion and vote proposal
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030811141330.05294e28@www.thinkware.se> (Magnus
	=?iso-8859-1?q?Lyck=E5's?= message of "Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:04:12 +0200")
References: <200308080428.h784S1Kx019314@theraft.strakt.com>
	<200308080428.h784S1Kx019314@theraft.strakt.com>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030811141330.05294e28@www.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <2mbruwpcoe.fsf@starship.python.net>

Magnus Lyck? <magnus@thinkware.se> writes:

> At 11:40 2003-08-11 +0100, Michael Hudson wrote:
>> > I propose that the 9 (?) track chairmen from last EPC get to vote and that
>> > they make the decision by simple majority.
>>
>>This seems reasonable to me.
>
> Me too, but I'm a bit puzzled by the grave silence on this
> list. 

Me too.

> If it means that people are still on vacation and not reading their
> mail, we might have a lot of surprised people in some time...

True.  But there seemed to be wide agreement for an Aug 15 deadline,
which is fast approaching.

> If there is a consensus that these nine can decide, I guess
> it's up to them to ask for the information they feel that
> they need to make up their minds.

I'm not sure how we gauge consensus other than "post the idea to this
list and see if anyone yelps".

>>How do we hold the vote?  A simple approach would be for everyone on
>>the above list to email me their preference and me to email the votes
>>to the voters and the results to this list.  Or someone else can take
>>this role
>
> Fine with me. Are you referring to both votes now? Location
> and organizational form?

Ah.  I was just thinking about the location.  I think whoever ends up
being the local organizers should have input into the organization, as
they're the ones who'll have to deal with it most.  I got the
impression that if the con ended up in Charleroi again that Aragne
were prepared to take the financial burden again (I may have been
mistaken here).  If the G?teborg crowd are prepared to set up an
organization that could do so for many years to come, that's
wonderful, but it's a bonus.

> For location, I guess it's clear that you have two options:
> Charleroi and G?teborg. Voting about this seems simple enough,
> and I guess it's the most pressing issue.

That's the way it seems to me.

> For EPC organization, we've heard several different suggestions,
> from "do nothing" via PBF SIG to several types of legal bodies.
> Of course, if a majority of the nine chosen ones agree on one of
> the proposed alternatives, it's all fine, but if not, I guess you
> need to make the decision making process a bit more sophisticated...

Hmm, you're right.  What do other people think?  Prod, prod.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them
  the usual way.  This happens to us all the time with computers,
  and nobody thinks of complaining.                     -- Jeff Raskin

From tom at aragne.com  Mon Aug 11 20:27:44 2003
From: tom at aragne.com (Tom Deprez)
Date: Mon Aug 11 13:23:29 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Comments on discussion and vote proposal
References: <200308080428.h784S1Kx019314@theraft.strakt.com><200308080428.h784S1Kx019314@theraft.strakt.com><5.2.1.1.0.20030811141330.05294e28@www.thinkware.se>
	<2mbruwpcoe.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <008a01c3602d$e7597420$897ba8c0@skullsplitter>

>>>> I propose that the 9 (?) track chairmen from last EPC get to vote
>>>> and that they make the decision by simple majority.
>>>
>>> This seems reasonable to me.
>>
>> Me too, but I'm a bit puzzled by the grave silence on this
>> list.
>
As I told I agree on the fact that the track chairmen may vote. See
previous mail. On the other hand is kinda strange, but since the
decision has to be quick I see the point. I was trackchair last year,
but not this year, so it means I'm out :-).

I'm not planning to involve a lot in the discussions anymore. I'm a
little tired about the whole thing. It's a too much on/off
discussion/happening. The same as the last 2 years.

I'll read the discussion and perhaps involve a bit sometimes, but I
wan't respond to everything anymore.

Regards,
T.


From gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de  Tue Aug 12 14:53:10 2003
From: gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman)
Date: Tue Aug 12 07:53:15 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Comments on discussion and vote proposal
In-Reply-To: <2mbruwpcoe.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <8B9271FC-CCBB-11D7-9386-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de>

Michael Hudson:

> Hmm, you're right.  What do other people think?  Prod, prod.

I'm not sure how fair it is towards the track chairs of EPC 2002
to be excluded from this voting procedure? If the qualification
to vote is based on these people's merits then it would make me
wonder why this year's chairs merit more than last year's?

Dinu

--
Dinu C. Gherman
......................................................................
"There comes a point when we the people must demand more of our
elected officials than just showing up." (Arnold Schwarzenegger)


From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Tue Aug 12 16:00:32 2003
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Tue Aug 12 09:01:33 2003
Subject: Decision NOW (was Re: [EuroPython] Comments on discussion and vote
	proposal)
References: <8B9271FC-CCBB-11D7-9386-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <026901c360d1$b7293bb0$4bdf1081@WALTER>

From: "Dinu Gherman" <gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de>
> Michael Hudson:
>
> > Hmm, you're right.  What do other people think?  Prod, prod.
>
> I'm not sure how fair it is towards the track chairs of EPC 2002
> to be excluded from this voting procedure? If the qualification
> to vote is based on these people's merits then it would make me
> wonder why this year's chairs merit more than last year's?

I think that Jacob's proposal was not meant to be based on the merits or non
merits of a certain group of people; instead I think that this year's track
chairmen are an easy identifiable group that quickly can get organised and
agree on a vote for where the next EPC should be held, in the 3 days left of
the G?teborg deadline.

I really do not think it is necessary to start splitting hairs at the
moment. So far many, if not most, proposals that might lead to any decision
making have been met with various kinds of objections, leaving us as a
community with nothing to base future actions and decisions on.

So, what do we do now? We have a proposal from Jacob on how to decide the
location of the next EPC. The Deadline for G?teborg is 3 days from now.

I suggest that unless there is a counter-proposal (read: objections do not
count, counterprosals only need apply) we go ahead with Jacobs proposal AND
that the EPC 2003 Track chairmen reach a decision Real-Soon-Now(tm).

It would be a shame for a decision to be reached because a deadline expired.

/dario

<soapbox type="personal" value="0.02 Eur">
I would like to point out that this kind of situation is one that we as a
community will NEVER be able to progress from unless we decide as a
community how we want to be formalised. I still feel strongly about the need
of an independant community organisation behind the EPC, be it in the form
of a SIG of the PBF or as an "European Association of Python Users", or...
you get the idea. Financial issues aside, I think that we need to have a
formal body that will allow the community to MAKE DECISIONS in an acceptable
way. I think that the very failure of being able to reach concensus and make
decisions is fatal to the community as a whole.

Heck, even deciding on someone designated to collect yes/no voters by email
from people on the mailinglist would be enough. But I guess that even that
might divide the community: how to decide on who gets to collect the
votes?... :-p
</soapbox>

- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.


From mwh at python.net  Tue Aug 12 15:09:11 2003
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Tue Aug 12 09:09:16 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: Decision NOW
In-Reply-To: <026901c360d1$b7293bb0$4bdf1081@WALTER> (Dario
	=?iso-8859-1?q?Lopez-K=E4sten's?= message of "Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:00:32
	+0200")
References: <8B9271FC-CCBB-11D7-9386-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de>
	<026901c360d1$b7293bb0$4bdf1081@WALTER>
Message-ID: <2m65l3rpjc.fsf@starship.python.net>

Dario Lopez-K?sten <dario@ita.chalmers.se> writes:

> So, what do we do now? We have a proposal from Jacob on how to decide the
> location of the next EPC. The Deadline for G?teborg is 3 days from now.

Is this really hard?  I somehow doubt that there will be votes from a
quorum (whatever that is) of last years track chairs within three days.

I'll hassle via email.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  > Or can I sweep that can of worms under the rug?
  Please shove them under the garage.
   -- Greg Ward and Guido van Rossum mix their metaphors on python-dev

From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Tue Aug 12 16:18:50 2003
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Tue Aug 12 09:21:54 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: Decision NOW
References: <8B9271FC-CCBB-11D7-9386-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de><026901c360d1$b7293bb0$4bdf1081@WALTER>
	<2m65l3rpjc.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <028d01c360d4$4562ec30$4bdf1081@WALTER>

From: "Michael Hudson" <mwh@python.net>
>
>Dario Lopez-K?sten <dario@ita.chalmers.se> writes:
>> So, what do we do now? We have a proposal from Jacob on how to decide the
>> location of the next EPC. The Deadline for G?teborg is 3 days from now.
>
>Is this really hard?  I somehow doubt that there will be votes from a
>quorum (whatever that is) of last years track chairs within three days.

I don't know how hard the deadline is really. It was set by Jacob and Laura,
whose schedules are *way* more busy than mine, so that they had plenty of
time to plan ahead.

Speaking for Myself I could probably wait a bit more fo the decision to be
made, but I am starting to feel a bit frustrated about the whole issue, so I
am sticking to whatever deadline Jacob and Laura decide upon.

/dario
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.


From mwh at python.net  Tue Aug 12 15:22:35 2003
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Tue Aug 12 09:23:40 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: Decision NOW
In-Reply-To: <028d01c360d4$4562ec30$4bdf1081@WALTER> (Dario
	=?iso-8859-1?q?Lopez-K=E4sten's?= message of "Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:18:50
	+0200")
References: <8B9271FC-CCBB-11D7-9386-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de>
	<026901c360d1$b7293bb0$4bdf1081@WALTER>
	<2m65l3rpjc.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<028d01c360d4$4562ec30$4bdf1081@WALTER>
Message-ID: <2my8xzqack.fsf@starship.python.net>

Dario Lopez-K?sten <dario@ita.chalmers.se> writes:

> From: "Michael Hudson" <mwh@python.net>
>>
>>Dario Lopez-K?sten <dario@ita.chalmers.se> writes:
>>> So, what do we do now? We have a proposal from Jacob on how to decide the
>>> location of the next EPC. The Deadline for G?teborg is 3 days from now.
>>
>>Is this really hard?  I somehow doubt that there will be votes from a
>>quorum (whatever that is) of last years track chairs within three days.
>
> I don't know how hard the deadline is really. It was set by Jacob and Laura,
> whose schedules are *way* more busy than mine, so that they had plenty of
> time to plan ahead.

OK.

> Speaking for Myself I could probably wait a bit more fo the decision to be
> made, but I am starting to feel a bit frustrated about the whole issue,

Join the club.

> so I am sticking to whatever deadline Jacob and Laura decide upon.

Well, it's just that I doubt we'll be able to provoke a response out
of all the track chairs by Friday.  Maybe we will; dunno.  I've sent
them all an email, I'll see how many responses I get by tomorrow.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Never meddle in the affairs of NT. It is slow to boot and quick to
  crash.                                             -- Stephen Harris
               -- http://home.xnet.com/~raven/Sysadmin/ASR.Quotes.html

From gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de  Tue Aug 12 16:46:19 2003
From: gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman)
Date: Tue Aug 12 09:46:19 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: Decision NOW
In-Reply-To: <2m65l3rpjc.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <5A02BA6A-CCCB-11D7-9386-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de>

Dario Lopez-K?sten:

> I think that Jacob's proposal was not meant to be based on the merits 
> or non
> merits of a certain group of people; instead I think that this year's 
> track
> chairmen are an easy identifiable group that quickly can get organised 
> [...]

Well, I've been able to identify them below with a few clicks only...

Michael Hudson:

> Is this really hard?  I somehow doubt that there will be votes from a
> quorum (whatever that is) of last years track chairs within three days.

Some "data-mining" on the website reveals these two relevant pages
below, which you can compare to get at the conclusion that you only
have to ask Shae Erisson, Marc Poinot and Tom Deprez, as the others
do overlap with EPC 2003. Finding them is another issue, but what do
you expect from deadlines in the middle of vacation periods every-
where? ;-)

   http://www.europython.org/sessions/descriptions
   http://www.europython.org/2002/sessions/descriptions

Dinu

--
Dinu C. Gherman
......................................................................
"It is only in folk tales, children's stories, and the journals of in-
tellectual opinion that power is used wisely and well to destroy evil.
The real world teaches very different lessons, and it takes wilful and
dedicated ignorance to fail to perceive them. (Noam Chomsky)

From mwh at python.net  Tue Aug 12 15:54:58 2003
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Tue Aug 12 09:55:01 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: Decision NOW
In-Reply-To: <5A02BA6A-CCCB-11D7-9386-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de> (Dinu
	Gherman's message of "Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:46:19 +0200")
References: <5A02BA6A-CCCB-11D7-9386-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <2mptjbq8ul.fsf@starship.python.net>

Dinu Gherman <gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de> writes:

> Some "data-mining" on the website reveals these two relevant pages
> below, which you can compare to get at the conclusion that you only
> have to ask Shae Erisson, Marc Poinot and Tom Deprez, as the others
> do overlap with EPC 2003.

If they are still around and interested, they can be part of the party
too.  It doesn't seem Shae or Marc even attended this year, though.

> Finding them is another issue, but what do you expect from deadlines
> in the middle of vacation periods every- where? ;-)

Well, I didn't expect *everyone* to go silent all at once...

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  This is the fixed point problem again; since all some implementors
  do is implement the compiler and libraries for compiler writing, the
  language becomes good at writing compilers and not much else!
                                 -- Brian Rogoff, comp.lang.functional

From tom at aragne.com  Tue Aug 12 17:23:12 2003
From: tom at aragne.com (Tom Deprez)
Date: Tue Aug 12 10:23:49 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: Decision NOW
References: <8B9271FC-CCBB-11D7-9386-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de><026901c360d1$b7293bb0$4bdf1081@WALTER><2m65l3rpjc.fsf@starship.python.net><028d01c360d4$4562ec30$4bdf1081@WALTER>
	<2my8xzqack.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <021201c360dd$432e42d0$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be>

>> I don't know how hard the deadline is really. It was set by Jacob
>> and Laura, whose schedules are *way* more busy than mine, so that
>> they had plenty of time to plan ahead.
>
> OK.
>
>> Speaking for Myself I could probably wait a bit more fo the decision
>> to be made, but I am starting to feel a bit frustrated about the
>> whole issue,
>
> Join the club.

hehe, looks like I'm not the only one :-). Mmm, let's stop this negativism,
just look ahead.

>> so I am sticking to whatever deadline Jacob and Laura decide upon.
>
> Well, it's just that I doubt we'll be able to provoke a response out
> of all the track chairs by Friday.  Maybe we will; dunno.  I've sent
> them all an email, I'll see how many responses I get by tomorrow.

Yup, I'm afraid a quick response is out of the question, seeing how much
mails it requested the previous years.
Also, it is indeed in the middle of the summer vacations.

Regards,
Tom.


From tom at aragne.com  Tue Aug 12 17:34:23 2003
From: tom at aragne.com (Tom Deprez)
Date: Tue Aug 12 10:34:58 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: Decision NOW
References: <5A02BA6A-CCCB-11D7-9386-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de>
	<2mptjbq8ul.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <021c01c360de$d2fa4890$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be>

Oh no, I hope people didn't misinterpreted my mail.
I just want to be a little bit less active, since it looks like it all ends
up the same as the last 2 years. That is: some heavy discussions, silence
again some discussions, ... , at the end a lot people with a lot of nice
ideas, but too late. And at the conference, people a little bit annoyed
because some ideas aren't fullfullid.
I'm just keeping a low profile for the summer months and see where it will
end.

I don't think I want to vote. People might think I'm biased to one
particular place because I helped organise it twice.
So I rather would not like to vote, I rather leave it to the people not
directly connected to a place. I like both proposals, the one a little bit
more because it's easier for me and the fact that I would certainly know
that I would be able to be there EP2004. But that are personal benefits
which don't apply.

Whatever the decission may be, I'll try to help the most I can.

Tom.

Michael Hudson wrote:
> Dinu Gherman <gherman@darwin.in-berlin.de> writes:
>
>> Some "data-mining" on the website reveals these two relevant pages
>> below, which you can compare to get at the conclusion that you only
>> have to ask Shae Erisson, Marc Poinot and Tom Deprez, as the others
>> do overlap with EPC 2003.
>
> If they are still around and interested, they can be part of the party
> too.  It doesn't seem Shae or Marc even attended this year, though.
>
>> Finding them is another issue, but what do you expect from deadlines
>> in the middle of vacation periods every- where? ;-)
>
> Well, I didn't expect *everyone* to go silent all at once...
>
> Cheers,
> mwh
>
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython


From rev_anna_r at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 12 12:27:36 2003
From: rev_anna_r at yahoo.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Tue Aug 12 14:27:39 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: Decision NOW
In-Reply-To: <021c01c360de$d2fa4890$b36da8c0@uz.kuleuven.ac.be>
Message-ID: <20030812182736.39365.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Tom Deprez <tom@aragne.com> wrote:
> Oh no, I hope people didn't misinterpreted my mail.
> I just want to be a little bit less active, since it looks like it
> all ends
> up the same as the last 2 years. That is: some heavy discussions,
> silence
> again some discussions, ... , at the end a lot people with a lot of
> nice
> ideas, but too late. And at the conference, people a little bit
> annoyed
> because some ideas aren't fullfullid.

I think that's really the nature of the beast when you have a community
organized event. There will always be people who talk big then
disappear [gee - I wouldn't know anything about that.... ;-) ] and then
show up to bitch at the end. 

> I'm just keeping a low profile for the summer months and see where it
> will end.
> 
> I don't think I want to vote. People might think I'm biased to one
> particular place because I helped organise it twice.
> So I rather would not like to vote, I rather leave it to the people
> not
> directly connected to a place. I like both proposals, the one a
> little bit
> more because it's easier for me and the fact that I would certainly
> know
> that I would be able to be there EP2004. But that are personal
> benefits
> which don't apply.
> 
> Whatever the decission may be, I'll try to help the most I can.

I'm sure that whatever help you give will be quite valuable. You were
wonderful to work with for EPC2003. Regardless of what happens with
2004 for a venue, I hope that you'll continue to be involved, either
directly in Charleroi, or indirectly in Goteborg. 

Anna

From paul at eurozope.org  Tue Aug 12 21:27:46 2003
From: paul at eurozope.org (Paul Everitt)
Date: Tue Aug 12 14:27:44 2003
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[EuroPython]_G=F6teborg_proposal,_draft?=
In-Reply-To: <200308080348.h783m3Kx018619@theraft.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <ABA3FB18-CCF2-11D7-9172-003065C7DEAE@eurozope.org>


On Friday, Aug 8, 2003, at 05:47 Europe/Paris, Jacob Hall?n wrote:

> This is a brief draft that I made a while ago. Laura and I have caught 
> some
> bad illness in our travels and have been out of commission for 2 weeks 
> now,
> so I'm sending this off without the editing it really needs, so that 
> you all
> have a chance to see our intentions and plans before you need to 
> decide.
>
> Dar?o isn't explicitly mentioned in this, but he has seen the draft. I 
> would
> consider it bad form to write him in without his approval of the text 
> about
> his virtues.
>
> Jacob Hall?n
> _____________________________________________________________
> We propose to hold EuroPython 2004 in G?teborg, Sweden during the
> summer of 2004. We would like to know what times are the most
> popular. To have access to our planned facilities, we should aim for
> sometime between 7 June and 15 August.
>
> We have the following items to consider in our proposal:
>
> Experience
> ==========
> Jacob Hall?n has arranged the Gothcon Games Convention for up to 1200
> people for several years, has done banquets for over 80 people and has
> in general done a lot of different arrangements for many
> people. Europython is a small and manageable conference in comparison
> with the other events.
>
> Laura Creighton has several years of experience from renaissance
> festivals and other events.
>
> We have employees with similar experience and friends at Chalmers who
> are interested in helping out. We also have contacts all over the
> Python community, which should allow us to put together a broad team
> of organisers.
>
> Cheaper conference venue
> ========================
> We aim to hold the conference at Chalmers University of Technology.
> We do not currently have figures for costs, but they should be 
> substantially
> under what CEME charges.

I'm afraid I can't really vote with much confidence on a "should be" 
piece of data for such a critical matter.  Choices:

1) Somebody steps forward and agrees to make up the difference if this 
is wrong.

2) We provide a way out: if this proves wrong, we switch back.

Other choices to mitigate this risk?  After, finances are one of the 
major items, and venue is a major component of cost.

--Paul

From bea at webwitches.com  Tue Aug 12 20:21:13 2003
From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice)
Date: Tue Aug 12 15:21:14 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: Decision NOW
In-Reply-To: <5A02BA6A-CCCB-11D7-9386-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de>
References: <5A02BA6A-CCCB-11D7-9386-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <1060716098.2652.57.camel@snowblind.webwitches.com>

On Tue, 2003-08-12 at 15:46, Dinu Gherman wrote:

[snip]

> Some "data-mining" on the website reveals these two relevant pages
> below, which you can compare to get at the conclusion that you only
> have to ask Shae Erisson, Marc Poinot and Tom Deprez, as the others
> do overlap with EPC 2003. Finding them is another issue, but what do
> you expect from deadlines in the middle of vacation periods every-
> where? ;-)

[snip]

I happen to have found Shae, as he's sitting in the office next to mine.
Since I have been increasingly working with Zope over the last year or
two and hence thinking of coming to the next EPC, he's let me answer for
him/both of us. Neither he nor I were at the conference this year or
last year because we ended up moving to... the north of Sweden, where we
recently opened a company together. That kept us too busy.

The reasons he/I did not add our two cents in the past are:
a) because we obviously would like the conference to take place in
Sweden since we're new in the country and, as a former inhabitant of
Belgium, I _really_ don't like Charleroi
b) because our absence at the last two events makes a) totally
irrelevant to those who've done all the work up to now.

Shae does not expect to have a vote in the matter for the reasons
mentioned above. Be that as it may: if it takes place in Sweden next
year, I will volunteer some of my own organisational talent and I am
planning to attend.

bea


-- 
"... being married to a woman provided the man with a constant companion,
a friend in old age, an object to be loved and played with,
better than a dog anyhow". Charles Darwin.
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-++-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-++-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-++-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
B?atrice Fontaine - Webwitches
Fabriksgatan 7 - SE 96131 Boden
Tel +46 921 15045 GSM +46 70 640 2773
URL www.webwitches.com



From magnus at thinkware.se  Wed Aug 13 01:54:51 2003
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=)
Date: Tue Aug 12 18:50:59 2003
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[EuroPython]_G=F6teborg_proposal,_draft?=
In-Reply-To: <ABA3FB18-CCF2-11D7-9172-003065C7DEAE@eurozope.org>
References: <200308080348.h783m3Kx018619@theraft.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030812234441.02106688@www.thinkware.se>


>On Friday, Aug 8, 2003, at 05:47 Europe/Paris, Jacob Hall?n wrote:
>>We aim to hold the conference at Chalmers University of Technology.
>>We do not currently have figures for costs, but they should be substantially
>>under what CEME charges.

At 20:27 2003-08-12 +0200, Paul Everitt wrote:
>I'm afraid I can't really vote with much confidence on a "should be" piece 
>of data for such a critical matter.

Well, if the organizer promise to hold the conference at a
fee which isn't higher than the previous one, and offer at
least the same standard, that's really all we need to know. :)

Perhaps Jacob can explain what his plan is regarding finance.
Obviously, conference fees are supposed to pay for the event,
but will enough of the fees arrive in time to pay the bills
when they are due, and what happens if there is a deficit?

Actually, we haven't heard anything about the CEME costs as
far as I know, although I suppose we can expect about the same
fee and the same content as last year. Right?

For Chalmers, Dario presented a budget a month ago for a similar
(but smaller, ~140 people) event at Chalmers. As I remember, it
costed slightly more per person, but included warm lunches every
day and one dinner, and the speakers didn't pay for food. See
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2003-July/003381.html
If it scales proportionally, the cost seems close to Charleroi.

Would it be possible to get some kind of estimate from Chalmers
with very short notice? I guess we can assume 300-400 people,
so we need larger rooms than Dario proposed. I'm not at all sure
that we need fancier lunches than we had though. The lunch at
CEME was certainly more than what you would expect when you hear
"a sandwich" though... (At least the vegetarians were very happy!)

For those who'd like to look at the possible rooms at Chalmers,
there is a map here: http://www.chalmers.se/HyperText/Kartor.html :)

Something that I noticed, is that the largest lecture halls at
Chalmers are about the same size as the CEME Auditorium. How do
we handle events everybody wants to follow (like Guido's keynote)
if we get something like 400 people present? Would 40% sit in
other rooms and see Guido on the projection screen? Then it gets
a bit more complicated for people to ask questions etc, but if we
film Guido in one room, I guess we could film the audience in the
other room and project that behind Guido! :)


--
Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language 


From jacob at strakt.com  Wed Aug 13 06:11:16 2003
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Tue Aug 12 23:11:51 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] =?iso-8859-1?q?G=F6teborg?= proposal, draft
In-Reply-To: <ABA3FB18-CCF2-11D7-9172-003065C7DEAE@eurozope.org>
References: <ABA3FB18-CCF2-11D7-9172-003065C7DEAE@eurozope.org>
Message-ID: <200308130311.h7D3BjKx013806@theraft.strakt.com>

On Tuesday 12 August 2003 20.27, Paul Everitt wrote:
> > Cheaper conference venue
> > ========================
> > We aim to hold the conference at Chalmers University of Technology.
> > We do not currently have figures for costs, but they should be
> > substantially
> > under what CEME charges.
>
> I'm afraid I can't really vote with much confidence on a "should be"
> piece of data for such a critical matter.  Choices:

Even though I don't know the exact cost for the CEME facility, I can assure 
you that the Chalmers venue will be cheaper. Exactly by how much, I can't 
say, since I don't know the exact pricing for either one.
What I do have is Dar?os figures for his smaller conference and some old 
experience from renting space at Chalmers.
In the very unlikely event that Chalmers should prove to be more expensive 
than I expect, I have a few other options in the form of The Gothenburg 
University, Chalmers Lindholmen (Independent sub-unit of Chalmers) and a few 
commercial facilities in town. If I really put my mind to it, I could 
probably find us space for EU 1000-1500, but such a place would be fairly 
inconveniently located.

For Gothcon, we rent a whole school (3 buildings). We get to use them for 
3x24 hours plus setup and cleanup time. For this we pay about EU 
11/attendee. The price is high because we rent the place over Easter and the 
janitor who has to be available gets 12 times normal pay.

Budgeting events, from the Pypy sprint through banquets to conventions is 
something I do on a regular basis. I don't feel insecure about it.

Jacob Hall?n

From drtimcouper at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Aug 13 14:39:08 2003
From: drtimcouper at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Tim=20Couper?=)
Date: Wed Aug 13 08:39:43 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <E19mbc0-0007VG-00@mail.python.org>
Message-ID: <20030813123908.54871.qmail@web60006.mail.yahoo.com>

 So can we have a clear statement of the proposals on
which voting is to happen? I feel clear on 
Charleroi's strengths and weaknesses, but I'm unclear
as to the details of the G'berg facilities &
accommodation offerings, costs, etc to help the
decision.

Tim

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html

From magnus at thinkware.se  Thu Aug 14 02:20:28 2003
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=)
Date: Wed Aug 13 19:13:13 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <20030813123908.54871.qmail@web60006.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <E19mbc0-0007VG-00@mail.python.org>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030813212528.052f9008@www.thinkware.se>

At 13:39 2003-08-13 +0100, Tim Couper wrote:
>  So can we have a clear statement of the proposals on
>which voting is to happen? I feel clear on
>Charleroi's strengths and weaknesses, but I'm unclear
>as to the details of the G'berg facilities &
>accommodation offerings, costs, etc to help the
>decision.

Can you be more specific about your questions? It's not
easy to write a short text that will make you as familiar
with an unknown location as with a place you've visited
before...

Concerning costs, Jacob seems confident that he can do
something cheaper and better than CEME, but I understand
that people want something more substancial than a
statement like that. On one hand I understand that they
might want to have the freedom to maybe set a slightly
higher price than last year if they feel that they could
provide something significantly more attractive that way,
but on the other hand, a promise about not having higher
prices than last year (assuming a certain amount of
attendants) could maybe settle any uncertainty about this
issue, if we can't get actual prices from Chalmers.

As an old student at Chalmers, I can say that all rooms
at Chalmers (provided we don't sit in the underground
tunnels ;^) are much better than the smaller rooms at CEME,
concerning acoustics, ventilation, ability to view the
speaker from rear etc. The large lecture halls don't look so
different from the CEME auditorium but I never had problems
hearing the lecturers, and there were no microphones or
loudspeakers around, so the acoustics must be better. This
is probably the best technical university in Sweden, and
it's in good shape. See http://www.chalmers.se/

Of course, being there as a student and as a conference
visitor isn't quite the same. We were certainly not waited
on by the lecture halls! :) I don't know at all how the
coffee and lunch etc arrangements will work. (I know there
are a lot of pizzerias close by though, and pizza is cheap
in Sweden. :)

Being a first rate technical university, there are obviously
good internet connections etc. There is also a fine computer
society -- CD <http://www.cd.chalmers.se/> and as far as I
understand it could be possible to run sprints there. Considering
that several Strakt employees have member web pages at CD, I
don't assume that will be a problem...


Everything you need is within walking distance of the conference
location: the 20/30 EURO accomodations, the centre of the city,
the Liseberg amusement park, restaurants, shops, hotels. As I've
mentioned before, there are plenty of things to see in G?teborg,
so please book in a few more days than the conference. Besides a
great amusement park http://www.liseberg.se/ (for those who enjoy
roller coasters) and a world famous concert hall http://www.gso.se/ ,
it can offer:
  the finest collection of Nordic art,
     http://www.konstmuseum.goteborg.se/english/indeng.html
  the national science dicovery centre,
     http://www.universeum.se/
  the East Indiaman G?teborg (a newly built replica of a ship
  that sank 200 years ago),
     http://www.soic.se/
  the archipelago
     http://www.goteborg.com/templates/articel.asp?id=4079
  and many other things from jazz clubs to parks...

G?teborg used to be one of the world's foremost ship building
cities, and it's still the industrial hub of Scandinavia.
The shipyards have been replaced by the automotive industry
with Volvo and Saab and a lot of smaller hitech companies
around them, as well as various other companies like Saab
Ericsson Space (satellite electronics and antennas etc),
Hasselblad (the cameras used by the Apollo astronauts),
Ericsson (mainly military stuff here), Astra Zeneca (they
actually use Python) etc.

Chalmers is on a hill, and if you don't like to walk uphill
to get there, there are plenty of buses and trams to help you.
Taxis are fairly expensive, but rarely needed.

Concerning lodging, the 20/30 EURO (single/double) lodging
is in a student hostel, partly empty for the summer holidays.
In general, there are lots of conferences in G?teborg, but
not in the summer, so hotel prices are much lower then than
otherwise. There is the full range from youth hostels, via
a four-masted barque (Viking) to Hotel Gothia Towers or
Hotel Lorensberg, where the rock stars stay. Looking briefly
at hotels in G?teborg on the web, I find lots of hotels both
below and above the Charleroi prices, a few fairly close to
Chalmers, but I think Jacob and Laura knows this better. I
have family there, so I never stay at hotels... I would guess
that it's simple for the arrangers to negotiate reasonable
prices in the summer if the student hostel doesn't suit
everybody. (Come there in September or April, and the prices
will be at a completely different level...)

Other factors:

Almost everybody between ages 12-70 or so speak English well.
This means no problems with communication in buses, shops,
restaurants or in the streets. In general, people in G?teborg
are friendly and outgoing. (That sounds like a clich?, but
having lived both there and in other parts of Sweden, I clearly
notice the difference, and it's not just me, most swedes seem
to agree that it's a cosy place--at least in the summer.)

Buses and trams pass by Chalmers, and there are direct lines
to most relevant locations I can think of right now. The whole
city is one ticket zone, which means that for the same price as
going one stop, you can actually get on a boat and cross the
river, or even travel out to the south archipelago.

In general prices in Sweden aren't as high as they used to
be (and we aren't as rich as we used to be). Beer and wine in
bars and restaurants is more expensive than in Belgium, but in
general, people now come from neighbouring countries to Sweden
for shopping and as tourists, since lots of things are cheaper
here. To avoid too expensive beer, look here: :)
http://www2.aos.se/etc/barsbors/gbg.asp
The cheapest beer (at John L's Pub) just happen to be in the
Chalmers campus! Lucky us! There is also a nice night club on
campus, so we don't have to go far to relax...

Strakt actually has a restaurant guide on their site (www.strakt.com)
but it's missing important things like the veggie restaurants,
odd places like Garlic (where they even have garlic ice cream) and
a lot of other nice places.


--
Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language 


From tim at 2wave.net  Thu Aug 14 09:55:09 2003
From: tim at 2wave.net (Tim Couper)
Date: Thu Aug 14 03:51:12 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030813212528.052f9008@www.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <NDBBKILCLHLPDFKBLBPBCEIPCEAA.tim@2wave.net>

Hi Magnus

G'berg certainly is a great place! It is so good to hear such enthusiasm for
one's home city!

My primary concern was related to the availability of a facility with space
to run 3 tracks each with 100+ people therein and a room for 300-400 people
together. The original proposal was only for 100+ people and inadequate room
sizes. I could have missed an update on that though. :-).

Thanks

Tim

-----Original Message-----
From: Magnus Lyck? [mailto:magnus@thinkware.se]
Sent: 14 August 2003 00:20
To: tim@2wave.net
Cc: europython@python.org
Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Voting proposals


At 13:39 2003-08-13 +0100, Tim Couper wrote:
>  So can we have a clear statement of the proposals on
>which voting is to happen? I feel clear on
>Charleroi's strengths and weaknesses, but I'm unclear
>as to the details of the G'berg facilities &
>accommodation offerings, costs, etc to help the
>decision.

Can you be more specific about your questions? It's not
easy to write a short text that will make you as familiar
with an unknown location as with a place you've visited
before...

Concerning costs, Jacob seems confident that he can do
something cheaper and better than CEME, but I understand
that people want something more substancial than a
statement like that. On one hand I understand that they
might want to have the freedom to maybe set a slightly
higher price than last year if they feel that they could
provide something significantly more attractive that way,
but on the other hand, a promise about not having higher
prices than last year (assuming a certain amount of
attendants) could maybe settle any uncertainty about this
issue, if we can't get actual prices from Chalmers.

As an old student at Chalmers, I can say that all rooms
at Chalmers (provided we don't sit in the underground
tunnels ;^) are much better than the smaller rooms at CEME,
concerning acoustics, ventilation, ability to view the
speaker from rear etc. The large lecture halls don't look so
different from the CEME auditorium but I never had problems
hearing the lecturers, and there were no microphones or
loudspeakers around, so the acoustics must be better. This
is probably the best technical university in Sweden, and
it's in good shape. See http://www.chalmers.se/

Of course, being there as a student and as a conference
visitor isn't quite the same. We were certainly not waited
on by the lecture halls! :) I don't know at all how the
coffee and lunch etc arrangements will work. (I know there
are a lot of pizzerias close by though, and pizza is cheap
in Sweden. :)

Being a first rate technical university, there are obviously
good internet connections etc. There is also a fine computer
society -- CD <http://www.cd.chalmers.se/> and as far as I
understand it could be possible to run sprints there. Considering
that several Strakt employees have member web pages at CD, I
don't assume that will be a problem...


Everything you need is within walking distance of the conference
location: the 20/30 EURO accomodations, the centre of the city,
the Liseberg amusement park, restaurants, shops, hotels. As I've
mentioned before, there are plenty of things to see in G?teborg,
so please book in a few more days than the conference. Besides a
great amusement park http://www.liseberg.se/ (for those who enjoy
roller coasters) and a world famous concert hall http://www.gso.se/ ,
it can offer:
  the finest collection of Nordic art,
     http://www.konstmuseum.goteborg.se/english/indeng.html
  the national science dicovery centre,
     http://www.universeum.se/
  the East Indiaman G?teborg (a newly built replica of a ship
  that sank 200 years ago),
     http://www.soic.se/
  the archipelago
     http://www.goteborg.com/templates/articel.asp?id=4079
  and many other things from jazz clubs to parks...

G?teborg used to be one of the world's foremost ship building
cities, and it's still the industrial hub of Scandinavia.
The shipyards have been replaced by the automotive industry
with Volvo and Saab and a lot of smaller hitech companies
around them, as well as various other companies like Saab
Ericsson Space (satellite electronics and antennas etc),
Hasselblad (the cameras used by the Apollo astronauts),
Ericsson (mainly military stuff here), Astra Zeneca (they
actually use Python) etc.

Chalmers is on a hill, and if you don't like to walk uphill
to get there, there are plenty of buses and trams to help you.
Taxis are fairly expensive, but rarely needed.

Concerning lodging, the 20/30 EURO (single/double) lodging
is in a student hostel, partly empty for the summer holidays.
In general, there are lots of conferences in G?teborg, but
not in the summer, so hotel prices are much lower then than
otherwise. There is the full range from youth hostels, via
a four-masted barque (Viking) to Hotel Gothia Towers or
Hotel Lorensberg, where the rock stars stay. Looking briefly
at hotels in G?teborg on the web, I find lots of hotels both
below and above the Charleroi prices, a few fairly close to
Chalmers, but I think Jacob and Laura knows this better. I
have family there, so I never stay at hotels... I would guess
that it's simple for the arrangers to negotiate reasonable
prices in the summer if the student hostel doesn't suit
everybody. (Come there in September or April, and the prices
will be at a completely different level...)

Other factors:

Almost everybody between ages 12-70 or so speak English well.
This means no problems with communication in buses, shops,
restaurants or in the streets. In general, people in G?teborg
are friendly and outgoing. (That sounds like a clich?, but
having lived both there and in other parts of Sweden, I clearly
notice the difference, and it's not just me, most swedes seem
to agree that it's a cosy place--at least in the summer.)

Buses and trams pass by Chalmers, and there are direct lines
to most relevant locations I can think of right now. The whole
city is one ticket zone, which means that for the same price as
going one stop, you can actually get on a boat and cross the
river, or even travel out to the south archipelago.

In general prices in Sweden aren't as high as they used to
be (and we aren't as rich as we used to be). Beer and wine in
bars and restaurants is more expensive than in Belgium, but in
general, people now come from neighbouring countries to Sweden
for shopping and as tourists, since lots of things are cheaper
here. To avoid too expensive beer, look here: :)
http://www2.aos.se/etc/barsbors/gbg.asp
The cheapest beer (at John L's Pub) just happen to be in the
Chalmers campus! Lucky us! There is also a nice night club on
campus, so we don't have to go far to relax...

Strakt actually has a restaurant guide on their site (www.strakt.com)
but it's missing important things like the veggie restaurants,
odd places like Garlic (where they even have garlic ice cream) and
a lot of other nice places.


--
Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language


From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Aug 14 14:07:34 2003
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Thu Aug 14 07:08:38 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
References: <NDBBKILCLHLPDFKBLBPBCEIPCEAA.tim@2wave.net>
Message-ID: <013801c36254$437b6100$4bdf1081@WALTER>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Couper" <tim@2wave.net>
> Hi Magnus
>
> G'berg certainly is a great place! It is so good to hear such enthusiasm
for
> one's home city!
>
> My primary concern was related to the availability of a facility with
space
> to run 3 tracks each with 100+ people therein and a room for 300-400
people
> together. The original proposal was only for 100+ people and inadequate
room
> sizes. I could have missed an update on that though. :-).

*It was not a proposal*, it was a stationary example of an imagined
conference, based on the stuff I have helped put with preiously. The idea
was to give you some meat on the bones. Mulitpy it by 4 and you have the
rough economics of the conference as a whole. Obviously we would have to
find larger rooms, but that would be arrangeable.

BTW, what are the economic figures for having a conference in Charleroi?
There have been several observations of the lack of figures from G?teborg,
but I have seen none for Charleroi...

/dario


From magnus at thinkware.se  Thu Aug 14 17:19:20 2003
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=)
Date: Thu Aug 14 10:11:45 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <NDBBKILCLHLPDFKBLBPBCEIPCEAA.tim@2wave.net>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030813212528.052f9008@www.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>

At 08:55 2003-08-14 +0100, Tim Couper wrote:
>My primary concern was related to the availability of a facility with space
>to run 3 tracks each with 100+ people therein and a room for 300-400 people
>together. The original proposal was only for 100+ people and inadequate room
>sizes. I could have missed an update on that though. :-).

There is no 400 seat lecture hall in Chalmers as far as I know. There
are several of about the same size as the CEME auditorium though. If
we turn out to be many more people than this year, I suggest we have
keynotes in Stenhammarsalen, which is just a short downhill walk from
campus. It would be a nice end of the day, leading down to the heart
of the city. This hall costs about EUR 550 for two hours, and it has
390 seats. See http://www.gso.se/img/related_images/10610_large.jpg
I guess it would be the prettiest hall Guido ever held a speech in,
and it's less than 2 euro per visitor if we use it one day. Perhaps
we can affort 3 euro per visitor and use it two days?

As I mentioned before, another alternative would be to link two
halls next door to each other with a video link for the keynotes.

But neither of these options are needed unless we get a significant
increase in visitors compared to this year. That would obviously be
nice, but as far as I understood the number of visitors 2002 and 2003
were fairly stable. Of course, when the conference is in the same
place, some people are bound to think "I've already done that..."
how ever well done it is. With a new location we might attract a lot
of new people, and also get more people return from previous years...

If you look at the map that pops up from
http://www.chalmers.se/HyperText/Kartor.html and select HA1, HA2,
HA3 and HA4 (263+88+104+176 seats) you get a reasonable building,
especially if we could fit in HA1 for the keynotes. That would work
if we get the same amount of visitors as the previous years.

If we are too many for keynotes in HA1, we might as well use HC
(108+104+104+176) and have the keynotes arranged as noted above.
There are many other options as well though. For instance, HB has
room sizes 184+184+184+224 if we need even more seats. Just hover
over the lecture hall list and see the sizes, click to see the
locations on the map.

Actually, if you have a recent version of Apple Quicktime installed
and click on the QTVR button under the map, you will be able to
have a look inside HC4 by clicking on the Q that appears by the
HC halls. Almost like being there! While different in size, all these
lecture halls look similar (at least they did in my days).


--
Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language  


From mwh at python.net  Thu Aug 14 16:19:16 2003
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Thu Aug 14 10:19:20 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se> (Magnus
	=?iso-8859-1?q?Lyck=E5's?= message of "Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:19:20 +0200")
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030813212528.052f9008@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <2mn0ecpbiz.fsf@starship.python.net>

Magnus Lyck? <magnus@thinkware.se> writes:

> But neither of these options are needed unless we get a significant
> increase in visitors compared to this year. That would obviously be
> nice, but as far as I understood the number of visitors 2002 and 2003
> were fairly stable. Of course, when the conference is in the same
> place, some people are bound to think "I've already done that..."
> how ever well done it is. With a new location we might attract a lot
> of new people, and also get more people return from previous years...

I'm hoping that knowing the conference is going to happen getting on
for six months earlier than we did last year will allow a rather more
effective spreading of the word...

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
    FORD:  Just pust the fish in your ear, come on, it's only a
           little one.
  ARTHUR:  Uuuuuuuuggh!
                    -- The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, Episode 1

From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Thu Aug 14 17:50:33 2003
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Thu Aug 14 10:51:13 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030813212528.052f9008@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <003601c36273$6a5ce5e0$6400a8c0@WALTER>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Magnus Lyck?" <magnus@thinkware.se>
To: "Tim Couper" <tim@2wave.net>
Cc: <europython@python.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 4:19 PM
Subject: RE: [EuroPython] Voting proposals


> At 08:55 2003-08-14 +0100, Tim Couper wrote:
> >My primary concern was related to the availability of a facility with
space
> >to run 3 tracks each with 100+ people therein and a room for 300-400
people
> >together. The original proposal was only for 100+ people and inadequate
room
> >sizes. I could have missed an update on that though. :-).
>
> There is no 400 seat lecture hall in Chalmers as far as I know.

The conference Hall RUNAN has 450 seats, the seats ordered in
cinema-fashion, with a stage. The G?teborg FilmFestival uses Runan during
the festival to show movies.

There are 2 other large auditoriums adjacent to it (in the same building),
one with about 100
seats, one with about 200-250 seats, I do not recall very well. The only
large auditorium presented in my proposal was Runan and 2 smaller rooms that
take about 3-40 people that also are in the same building.

I was not able to attend any of the 2 lsat EPC's so I really don't know the
amount of a) parallel tracks, b) attendants per parallel track to expect.

...
>
> If you look at the map that pops up from
> http://www.chalmers.se/HyperText/Kartor.html and select HA1, HA2,
> HA3 and HA4 (263+88+104+176 seats) you get a reasonable building,
> especially if we could fit in HA1 for the keynotes. That would work
> if we get the same amount of visitors as the previous years.
>
> If we are too many for keynotes in HA1, we might as well use HC
> (108+104+104+176) and have the keynotes arranged as noted above.
> There are many other options as well though. For instance, HB has
> room sizes 184+184+184+224 if we need even more seats. Just hover
> over the lecture hall list and see the sizes, click to see the
> locations on the map.

These halls are within a 2-6 minute walking distance from Runan.

/dario



From jacob at strakt.com  Thu Aug 14 18:00:18 2003
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Thu Aug 14 11:00:53 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: Voting proposals
Message-ID: <200308141500.h7EF0mKx019365@theraft.strakt.com>

Magnus is actually wrong about the availability of large lecture halls at 
Chalmers.
In the new student union building there is "Runan" which seats 450. There is 
also the big restaurant that seats 600 eating people. I think the limit of 
what the fire safety authorities allow is 750.

Jacob

From magnus at thinkware.se  Thu Aug 14 23:18:14 2003
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=)
Date: Thu Aug 14 16:10:39 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <200308141500.h7EF0mKx019365@theraft.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814220652.020e3480@www.thinkware.se>

At 17:00 2003-08-14 +0200, Jacob Hall?n wrote:
>In the new student union building there is "Runan" which seats 450.

Aha. I heard about the new student union building, but I never
saw it IRL. I only looked at the Chalmers map, and that doesn't
show halls belonging to the student union... Well, then that's
no problem. (It's almost 13 years since I graduated. I can't
imagine where all those years went...but it would be fun to see
what happened to my Alma Mater...)


--
Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language 


From magnus at thinkware.se  Thu Aug 14 23:34:41 2003
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=)
Date: Thu Aug 14 16:27:05 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <2mn0ecpbiz.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030813212528.052f9008@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814221830.02124de0@www.thinkware.se>

At 15:19 2003-08-14 +0100, Michael Hudson wrote:
>I'm hoping that knowing the conference is going to happen getting on
>for six months earlier than we did last year will allow a rather more
>effective spreading of the word...

That's true. I also hope that it will attract both a lot of new
people from Chalmers, the G?teborg region, and from Scandinavia
in general (if it happens there). Maybe we'll fill Runan!

It would be great if we had, not only a time and a place, but also
speakers and a finished program earlier than this year. It's not
easy to sell something before there is any content to present. As
I remember, there was no substancial info about EPC 2003 on the
web site when the first announcements went out. Once the talks
started to materialize, there was plenty of stuff, but by the time
I felt that I needed to plan and make a decision, there was nothing
on the web site, and it was only because I was a mailing list
subscriber that I felt that I knew enough to decide to go. The
typical visitor won't be that involved.

If people start to register earlier it will also make it much
easier to plan, and the liquidity of EPC will be better.


--
Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language 


From magnus at thinkware.se  Thu Aug 14 23:42:48 2003
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=)
Date: Thu Aug 14 16:35:10 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <003601c36273$6a5ce5e0$6400a8c0@WALTER>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030813212528.052f9008@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814223540.0215f468@www.thinkware.se>

At 16:50 2003-08-14 +0200, Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:
>There are 2 other large auditoriums adjacent to it (in the same building),
>one with about 100
>seats, one with about 200-250 seats, I do not recall very well. The only
>large auditorium presented in my proposal was Runan and 2 smaller rooms that
>take about 3-40 people that also are in the same building.

I guess that means that it could actually be possible to have the
whole conference in the student union building! That would be
really cool! Although I haven't seen the new parts, I know that
the student union house (kyrkan etc) will have really good places
to meet people and discuss things in a pleasent environment.

But I should really let the people who actually to the work make
the planning themselves. It feels a bit frustrating to be 1000
km away... :(


--
Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language 


From magnus at thinkware.se  Fri Aug 15 00:00:46 2003
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=)
Date: Thu Aug 14 16:53:09 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <003601c36273$6a5ce5e0$6400a8c0@WALTER>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030813212528.052f9008@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814224305.02154bc8@www.thinkware.se>

At 16:50 2003-08-14 +0200, Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:
>I was not able to attend any of the 2 lsat EPC's so I really don't know the
>amount of a) parallel tracks, b) attendants per parallel track to expect.

There were about 300 attendants and three parallel tracks.
Runan + 100 + 200 places would probably be fine for the
three tracks even if we get 30% bigger than last year.

There was also a room where people could connect their
laptops to the internet, and another room where you
could recharge laptop batteries. One of the smaller
rooms you mentioned would be fine for this.

Between the halls where the tracks were held, there was
an open lounge, where people could mingle, where O'Reilly
books were sold and coffee and lunch served.

There was also an open terrace where people could sit and
have coffee and talk.

There are plans at http://www.europython.org/information/floorplan
and pictures at http://www.europython.org/other/photos



--
Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language 


From magnus at thinkware.se  Fri Aug 15 00:56:04 2003
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=)
Date: Thu Aug 14 17:48:28 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Tracks
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814235120.020e3bc8@www.thinkware.se>

We haven't really discussed how many tracks to
run in parellel during EPC2004, but I would
suggest that we do as this year, run two Python
and one Zope tracks. That is unless the Zope
community feel that they could fill two Zope
tracks. Personally I only have a marginal
interest in Zope, but lots of interest in most
other Python stuff, so it would feel very
frustrated if I had to miss out on more than
I did this time... :)


--
Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language 


From magnus at thinkware.se  Fri Aug 15 01:10:06 2003
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=)
Date: Thu Aug 14 18:02:29 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2003 attendents
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814235606.02127b60@www.thinkware.se>

I was wondering about the number of attendants this
year, to give some aid to next years arrangers.

As far as I understand, there were three categories
of people: Visitors, Guests and Crew. Visitors were
people who paid the full fee. Guests were speakers,
who only paid for food (EUR50).

As far as I understand, EPC2003 had almost exactly
300 people in total. Out of these I understand that
about 70 were guests and I guess just a handful
crew.

I assume Denis knows more details, such as how many
paid before the price went up etc.

I don't think we were ever more than 250 people in
the auditorium, so I guess not all people were there
all days. (Not just Moshe.)



--
Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language 


From faassen at vet.uu.nl  Fri Aug 15 02:02:12 2003
From: faassen at vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Thu Aug 14 19:02:17 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6tebor?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?g?= proposal, draft
In-Reply-To: <ABA3FB18-CCF2-11D7-9172-003065C7DEAE@eurozope.org>
References: <200308080348.h783m3Kx018619@theraft.strakt.com>
	<ABA3FB18-CCF2-11D7-9172-003065C7DEAE@eurozope.org>
Message-ID: <20030814230212.GA12002@vet.uu.nl>

Paul Everitt wrote:
> >We aim to hold the conference at Chalmers University of Technology.
> >We do not currently have figures for costs, but they should be 
> >substantially under what CEME charges.
> 
> I'm afraid I can't really vote with much confidence on a "should be" 
> piece of data for such a critical matter.  Choices:
> 
> 1) Somebody steps forward and agrees to make up the difference if this 
> is wrong.
> 
> 2) We provide a way out: if this proves wrong, we switch back.
> 
> Other choices to mitigate this risk?  After, finances are one of the 
> major items, and venue is a major component of cost.

What would help is to actually get some figures on what CEME charges,
and what Chalmers would charge.

I know Jacob has very good contacts within Chalmers, so presumably he
has some clue on what he's talking about, too.

Regards,

Martijn


From faassen at vet.uu.nl  Fri Aug 15 02:08:58 2003
From: faassen at vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Thu Aug 14 19:08:55 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: Decision NOW
In-Reply-To: <5A02BA6A-CCCB-11D7-9386-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de>
References: <2m65l3rpjc.fsf@starship.python.net>
	<5A02BA6A-CCCB-11D7-9386-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <20030814230858.GB12002@vet.uu.nl>

Dinu Gherman wrote:
> Some "data-mining" on the website reveals these two relevant pages
> below, which you can compare to get at the conclusion that you only
> have to ask Shae Erisson,

Shae was supposed to help me out and while he did so a little,
he couldn't make it to the conference and I ended up chairing the
two tracks by myself.

Regards,

Martijn


From faassen at vet.uu.nl  Fri Aug 15 02:31:08 2003
From: faassen at vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Thu Aug 14 19:31:04 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] voting, proposals
Message-ID: <20030814233108.GA12075@vet.uu.nl>

Hey,

I'm fine with the track chairs vote proposal, though I feel a
bit bad about leaving people out. It does have the advantage
of being straightforward if people agree on it.

We've seen plenty of discussions concerning Chalmers as a proposal,
including some budgetary numbers. I think it would be useful in
the decision process to see some of those numbers tallied up.

More importantly is the Charleroi proposal. There should be a
proposal of this, including some budgetary figures. Advantage for
Charleroi is that it doesn't need to prove itself so it may skimp
on some details that Chalmers needs to go into, but I think we should
at least see some side-by-side comparison. 

Not an argument of any kind, mind , but just a presentation on how both
venues intend to tackle issues like attendee amounts, budget, and various
other improvements. I know the Charleroi team has good ideas on that as 
well, so perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to repeat them. Chalmers
already has a thread, so let's discuss Charleroi in another thread
and let's keep the two threads somewhat distinct.

Then there is the deadline issue. We set the deadline for today;
what's Michael's status on the track chair tally? 

Steps before decision can be made would be:

  * get all track chairs involved on list. At least with an ping response
    to Michael.

  * reach consensus on list on this decision procedure. Perhaps some more 
    people could chip in saying it is okay. In particular I'd like to hear
    from Denis -- this really can't go through if Denis doesn't agree. If he
    doesn't then we will have to find an alternative together that satisfies
    him. I consider this essential.

  * consensus that enough information to make an informed decision has
    been supplied.

  * voting procedure on location. I trust Michael to tally the votes, so
    unless someone objects let's send our votes to him. If we need something 
    more formal then let's work it out soon.

Since reaching these steps takes a few days and not everybody may be
in email reach, I propose we arrange the vote by 1 week, to 
friday the 22nd of august. If Michael reports that still not everybody
is in by mid-next week, or if the track chairs consider insufficient
information has appeared on the list for an informed vote, we can always
decide to re-extend the deadline or change the procedure.

Immediately afterwards while the votes are still streaming in and the
entire world waits in suspense for the result, we should also consider
whether we go the PBF route or not (and if not what then). This will have
to be decided fairly soon as well for this to work out.

Regards,

Martijn


From listmanager at lists.ZATZ.com  Thu Aug 14 09:40:34 2003
From: listmanager at lists.ZATZ.com (ZATZ Publishing)
Date: Fri Aug 15 08:40:30 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] New ZATZ Product - Introducing Shoot The Messenger!
Message-ID: <E19ndsY-00005m-00@mail.python.org>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20030814/dea8b169/attachment-0001.htm
From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug 15 15:29:24 2003
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug 15 09:29:27 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814221830.02124de0@www.thinkware.se> (Magnus
	=?iso-8859-1?q?Lyck=E5's?= message of "Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:34:41 +0200")
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030813212528.052f9008@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030814221830.02124de0@www.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <2mhe4jnj63.fsf@starship.python.net>

Magnus Lyck? <magnus@thinkware.se> writes:

> At 15:19 2003-08-14 +0100, Michael Hudson wrote:
>>I'm hoping that knowing the conference is going to happen getting on
>>for six months earlier than we did last year will allow a rather more
>>effective spreading of the word...
>
> That's true. I also hope that it will attract both a lot of new
> people from Chalmers, the G?teborg region, and from Scandinavia
> in general (if it happens there). Maybe we'll fill Runan!
>
> It would be great if we had, not only a time and a place, but also
> speakers and a finished program earlier than this year.

Oh good grief, I hope so too.

Well, I'm not sure that we want the programme *entirely* fixed in
stone months & months in advance.

> It's not easy to sell something before there is any content to
> present.

We managed that this year :-) But yes.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  There are two ways of constructing a software design: one way is to
  make it so simple that there  are obviously no deficiencies and the
  other way  is to make it so complicated  that there are  no obvious
  deficiencies.                                      -- C. A. R. Hoare

From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug 15 15:30:21 2003
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug 15 09:30:23 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814235120.020e3bc8@www.thinkware.se> (Magnus
	=?iso-8859-1?q?Lyck=E5's?= message of "Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:56:04 +0200")
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814235120.020e3bc8@www.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <2mekznnj4i.fsf@starship.python.net>

Magnus Lyck? <magnus@thinkware.se> writes:

> We haven't really discussed how many tracks to
> run in parellel during EPC2004,

I think you might be getting a bit ahead of the game here...

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore,
  be regarded as a criminal offence.
           -- Edsger W. Dijkstra, SIGPLAN Notices, Volume 17, Number 5

From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug 15 15:45:24 2003
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug 15 09:45:26 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] voting, proposals
In-Reply-To: <20030814233108.GA12075@vet.uu.nl> (Martijn Faassen's message
	of "Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:31:08 +0200")
References: <20030814233108.GA12075@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <2mbrurniff.fsf@starship.python.net>

Martijn Faassen <faassen@vet.uu.nl> writes:

[...]
> Then there is the deadline issue. We set the deadline for today;
> what's Michael's status on the track chair tally? 

Not too good.  No response from Nicholas, Paul or Heimo.  Paul has
even posted here since I sent the ping...

>   * reach consensus on list on this decision procedure. Perhaps some more 
>     people could chip in saying it is okay. In particular I'd like to hear
>     from Denis -- this really can't go through if Denis doesn't agree. If he
>     doesn't then we will have to find an alternative together that satisfies
>     him. I consider this essential.

Yes, I would like to hear from Denis, too.  Maybe he's on vacation?

> Immediately afterwards while the votes are still streaming in and the
> entire world waits in suspense for the result, we should also consider
> whether we go the PBF route or not (and if not what then). This will have
> to be decided fairly soon as well for this to work out.

Yup.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  NUTRIMAT:  That drink was individually tailored to meet your
             personal requirements for nutrition and pleasure.
    ARTHUR:  Ah.  So I'm a masochist on a diet am I?
                    -- The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, Episode 9

From rev_anna_r at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 15 08:13:14 2003
From: rev_anna_r at yahoo.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Fri Aug 15 10:13:18 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] voting, proposals
In-Reply-To: <2mbrurniff.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <20030815141314.46603.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Michael Hudson <mwh@python.net> wrote:
> Martijn Faassen <faassen@vet.uu.nl> writes:
> 
> [...]
> > Then there is the deadline issue. We set the deadline for today;
> > what's Michael's status on the track chair tally? 
> 
> Not too good.  No response from Nicholas, Paul or Heimo.  Paul has
> even posted here since I sent the ping...

Well, I think we have time then to get the Charleroi proposal. 

> >   * reach consensus on list on this decision procedure. Perhaps
> some more 
> >     people could chip in saying it is okay. In particular I'd like
> to hear
> >     from Denis -- this really can't go through if Denis doesn't
> agree. If he
> >     doesn't then we will have to find an alternative together that
> satisfies
> >     him. I consider this essential.
> 
> Yes, I would like to hear from Denis, too.  Maybe he's on vacation?

Could be. I hope we hear from him soon too.
 
> > Immediately afterwards while the votes are still streaming in and
> the
> > entire world waits in suspense for the result, we should also
> consider
> > whether we go the PBF route or not (and if not what then). This
> will have
> > to be decided fairly soon as well for this to work out.
> 
> Yup.
> 
> Cheers,
> mwh

Thanks for being willing to handle the voting, Michael.

Anna

From huima at iki.fi  Fri Aug 15 19:19:02 2003
From: huima at iki.fi (Heimo Laukkanen)
Date: Fri Aug 15 11:13:25 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting and my other opinions
Message-ID: <3F3CF9E6.5080006@iki.fi>

I personally do not have any other opinion on the place for EPC - other 
than G?teborg is far closer to Finland than Charleroi. However I will 
participate no matter what, so my opinion should not count.

What should count is:

  1) Where is team able and willing to take the task - and carry out the 
full project till the end

  2) Where participants are able and willing to travel to with moderate 
costs

How much does it change the total costs ( travel + conference + 
accomodation + food ) for people coming from Germany ( most participants 
  2003 if I am correct ) to change the event to Sweden? Will it make any 
difference?

Whatever is the final choise, I will give my support and help to make 
the event a success. I just participated as an organizer in volunteer 
run event that gets more than 5000 participants, is 4 days long and 
there was program almost 24 h a day. Single most important reason for 
that event's success is the fact that it has an excellent project 
manager and very dedicated core team of organizers.

And that is what matters.

-huima



From gotcha at swing.be  Fri Aug 15 18:30:08 2003
From: gotcha at swing.be (Godefroid Chapelle)
Date: Fri Aug 15 11:32:02 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] voting, proposals
In-Reply-To: <2mbrurniff.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <20030814233108.GA12075@vet.uu.nl>
	<20030814233108.GA12075@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030815172832.025f39c0@pop.swing.be>

At 15:45 15/08/2003, Michael Hudson wrote:
> > Then there is the deadline issue. We set the deadline for today;
> > what's Michael's status on the track chair tally?
>
>Not too good.  No response from Nicholas, Paul or Heimo.  Paul has
>even posted here since I sent the ping...

Just wanted to let you all know that Paul will be back on the list ASAP.
He is currently really busy with ZEA work.
Hopefully, he'll be with us during the weekend.



> >   * reach consensus on list on this decision procedure. Perhaps some more
> >     people could chip in saying it is okay. In particular I'd like to hear
> >     from Denis -- this really can't go through if Denis doesn't agree. 
> If he
> >     doesn't then we will have to find an alternative together that 
> satisfies
> >     him. I consider this essential.
>
>Yes, I would like to hear from Denis, too.  Maybe he's on vacation?

I tried to find Denis by phone today, but august 15th is not working day in 
Belgium.. and France
which expalins I had no more chances with Nicolas.
--

Godefroid Chapelle

BubbleNet sprl
rue Victor Horta, 18 / 202
1348 Louvain-la-Neuve
Belgium

Tel + 32 (10) 459901

TVA 467 093 008
RC Niv 49849


From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug 15 17:43:37 2003
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug 15 11:43:40 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] voting, proposals
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030815172832.025f39c0@pop.swing.be> (Godefroid
	Chapelle's message of "Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:30:08 +0200")
References: <20030814233108.GA12075@vet.uu.nl>
	<20030814233108.GA12075@vet.uu.nl>
	<5.1.0.14.2.20030815172832.025f39c0@pop.swing.be>
Message-ID: <2m65kzncye.fsf@starship.python.net>

Godefroid Chapelle <gotcha@swing.be> writes:

[...]
> Just wanted to let you all know that Paul will be back on the list ASAP.
> He is currently really busy with ZEA work.
> Hopefully, he'll be with us during the weekend.
[...]
> I tried to find Denis by phone today, but august 15th is not working
> day in Belgium.. and France
> which expalins I had no more chances with Nicolas.

Oh, that's good to hear, in a way.

Thanks for the chasing!

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  The Oxford Bottled Beer Database heartily disapproves of the 
  excessive consumption of alcohol.  No, really.
                        -- http://www.bottledbeer.co.uk/beergames.html

From jacob at strakt.com  Fri Aug 15 20:50:48 2003
From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=)
Date: Fri Aug 15 13:51:22 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: Voting and other options
Message-ID: <200308151751.h7FHpHKx018107@theraft.strakt.com>

It is very hard to give any numbers for total costs, since so may parameters 
vary, but I'll try to make a decent example that I think reflects the cost 
for the typical Europython attendee.

I have made some very rough assumptions in this.

1. For the sake of fair comparison i have assumed that we have failed in our 
goal to make the conference cheaper, and set the same registration fee (the 
early bird one).

2. I have assumed that the person comes from a place that is not conveniently 
served by a low price airline and doubled the cost of getting to G?teborg as 
compared with the cost of getting to Charleroi.

3. The person wants a place to stay that has shower, gives you single 
occupancy, is close to the town and the venue. The Chareroi figure comes from 
my bill from Hotel Ibis. Breafast not included. 

4. I have assumed that the person eats breakfast at the place of accomodation.

5. I have assumed that the person stays 3 nights, arriving on the eve of the 
conference and leaves on the last day. Longer stays would certainly favour 
Gothenburg.

In my calculations, Gothenburg comes out as the cheaper alternative. The only 
way you can get Charleroi to become the cheaper alternative is by reducing 
the hotel cost. You can do that by staying at a very inconvenient location 
outside town.

This is only readable with a non-proportional font.
	Charleroi	Gothenburg
Conference	200	200
Travel	100	200
Food	55	55
Beer	20	40
Lodging	225	60
		
Total	600	555

Jacob

From faassen at vet.uu.nl  Fri Aug 15 21:47:44 2003
From: faassen at vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Fri Aug 15 14:47:43 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <2mhe4jnj63.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030813212528.052f9008@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030814221830.02124de0@www.thinkware.se>
	<2mhe4jnj63.fsf@starship.python.net>
Message-ID: <20030815184744.GA15268@vet.uu.nl>

Michael Hudson wrote:
> > That's true. I also hope that it will attract both a lot of new
> > people from Chalmers, the G?teborg region, and from Scandinavia
> > in general (if it happens there). Maybe we'll fill Runan!
> >
> > It would be great if we had, not only a time and a place, but also
> > speakers and a finished program earlier than this year.
> 
> Oh good grief, I hope so too.

Okay, let's go for that then.

> Well, I'm not sure that we want the programme *entirely* fixed in
> stone months & months in advance.

I agree there too. We should however formalize this period of grace
from the perspective of fairness and at least to make sure the
program is at least *semi* solid at some date. 

> > It's not easy to sell something before there is any content to
> > present.
> 
> We managed that this year :-) But yes.

Of course we have the content of the year before to help us there.
As long as it's clear there's continuity that will help people decide
too.

Note that Guido in an interview said there are so many conferences
he's invited to that he may have to dump some for the next year.
And it may be that the volunteer-organized conferences will have to compete
the most..

http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/python/2003/08/14/gvr_interview.html

an in particular this:

ORN: How many annual Python conferences are you aware of now? Can you still get to them all?

GvR: I think I'm going to have to start saying "no" to some. This year I've been to PyCon 2003 in Washington DC in March, then Python UK in Oxford, England the following month. EuroPython was in Charleroi, Belgium in June, and now we're at OSCON in Portland, Oregon, in July. That's four, and as far as I know all those four are planning to run again in 2004. I don't think that next year I'll be able to go to more than three of those.

ORN: What did you think of PyCon DC, Python UK and EuroPython in 2003? Were there any instructive differences?

GvR: They are all different, and the differences are very interesting. PyCon is the youngest, and the members of the organizing team were all people who hadn't done a Python conference before. You could tell that from some of the details. On the other hand, given that, I thought it was an excellent conference. I had a really good time, and I'm really glad that you're going to do it again next year.

Python UK was two days of tracks in a much larger conference, just like Python 11 has been a track here at OSCON. You get a much larger audience, and speakers have been paid to come, and can come in company time because it's a prestigious conference. So I think that the number of truly high-quality presentations at those two is somewhat higher from my perspective.

That said, I still think there were many excellent talks at PyCon and at EuroPython.

ORN: So there are two professional-style conferences, and two more community-oriented conferences?

GvR: Yes. PyCon definitely had a more grungy community atmosphere than EuroPython, because the EuroPython folks had done it before, and their price level is slightly higher.

ORN: Where will the next major Python conference be and when?

GvR: The next one that I'm aware of is PyCon 2004, and I hope it'll be in Washington DC in March next year, but you'd know more about that than I do.

Regards,

Martijn


From faassen at vet.uu.nl  Fri Aug 15 21:48:50 2003
From: faassen at vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Fri Aug 15 14:48:51 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Re: Decision NOW
In-Reply-To: <1060716098.2652.57.camel@snowblind.webwitches.com>
References: <5A02BA6A-CCCB-11D7-9386-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de>
	<1060716098.2652.57.camel@snowblind.webwitches.com>
Message-ID: <20030815184850.GB15268@vet.uu.nl>

Beatrice wrote:
> Be that as it may: if it takes place in Sweden next
> year, I will volunteer some of my own organisational talent and I am
> planning to attend.

That I consider to be an asset for the Sweden proposal, then. :)

Regards,

Martijn


From faassen at vet.uu.nl  Fri Aug 15 21:55:11 2003
From: faassen at vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Fri Aug 15 14:55:08 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting and my other opinions
In-Reply-To: <3F3CF9E6.5080006@iki.fi>
References: <3F3CF9E6.5080006@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <20030815185510.GC15268@vet.uu.nl>

Heimo Laukkanen wrote:
> I personally do not have any other opinion on the place for EPC - other 
> than G?teborg is far closer to Finland than Charleroi. However I will 
> participate no matter what, so my opinion should not count.

Well, I will participate too no matter where the location is, but that
doesn't mean I think my opinion shouldn't count. Anyway, as you follow up with
some considered opinions anyway I'm not worried you really believe yours 
shouldn't count. :)

> What should count is:
> 
>  1) Where is team able and willing to take the task - and carry out the 
> full project till the end
> 
>  2) Where participants are able and willing to travel to with moderate 
> costs

That's a good point to make.

> How much does it change the total costs ( travel + conference + 
> accomodation + food ) for people coming from Germany ( most participants 
>  2003 if I am correct ) to change the event to Sweden? Will it make any 
> difference?

That would be a good thing to evaluate. I expect it does make a difference
both in price and psychologically. It's easier to just jump in a car
from Germany to go to Belgium than a plane to fly to Sweden (though
if you're in the north there are ferry connections).

Then again, that would play in our favor too; Scandinavian countries may have 
less population but they're particularly high-tech in my experience. So
we will attract more locals.

We could compensate for perceived and real increased distance by putting
some information on cheap connections on the homepage. Could anyone
whip up some figures on this?

Regards,

Martijn


From bea at webwitches.com  Sat Aug 16 08:22:10 2003
From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice)
Date: Sat Aug 16 03:22:10 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting and my other opinions
In-Reply-To: <20030815185510.GC15268@vet.uu.nl>
References: <3F3CF9E6.5080006@iki.fi>  <20030815185510.GC15268@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <1061018552.1946.22.camel@snowblind.webwitches.com>

On Fri, 2003-08-15 at 20:55, Martijn Faassen wrote:

[snip]

> We could compensate for perceived and real increased distance by putting
> some information on cheap connections on the homepage. Could anyone
> whip up some figures on this?

Ryan Air (www.ryanair.com) fly G?teborg once every day from Frankfurt
Hahn (around 30 euro) and from London Stansted (around 40 euro). Advance
bookings online seem to reach until July 2004 for the moment.

bea



From magnus at thinkware.se  Sat Aug 16 13:27:33 2003
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=)
Date: Sat Aug 16 06:19:58 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting and my other opinions
In-Reply-To: <1061018552.1946.22.camel@snowblind.webwitches.com>
References: <20030815185510.GC15268@vet.uu.nl> <3F3CF9E6.5080006@iki.fi>
	<20030815185510.GC15268@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030816113000.0212c568@www.thinkware.se>


> > We could compensate for perceived and real increased distance by putting
> > some information on cheap connections on the homepage.

 From my location 1000km away from G?teborg, this is the kind of
work I could do for the conference. But we hardly need all the
details to decide location, right? The details won't be exactly
the same a year from now anyway. I certainly agree that it should
be on the Europython site when we start to advertise the event.

>Could anyone
> > whip up some figures on this?
>
>Ryan Air (www.ryanair.com) fly G?teborg once every day from Frankfurt
>Hahn (around 30 euro) and from London Stansted (around 40 euro). Advance
>bookings online seem to reach until July 2004 for the moment.

Except for Ryanair, there is also Sterling and Virgin to consider for
cheaper flights. I think it's easier for people to check their own
connections than to list a lot here. Brussels-G?teborg seems to be
67 euros with Virgin for instance.

http://www.sterlingticket.com/en/forside_en
http://www.virgin-express.com/home.html

This summer it's certainly been possible to get fairly cheap flights
with the mainstream airlines as well.

I assume people in Scandianavia know how to get to G?teborg, but of
course we can provide info on that as well. Stena Line runs ferries
to G?teborg from Fredrikshavn in Denmark and from Kiel in Germany.
There is also a Stena ferry from Gdynia to Sweden, but you have to
drive through Sweden. For those prepared to cross Sweden from east to
west by car, bus or train, there are also ferries from Turkuu, Helsinki,
Tallin, Riga, Klaipeda etc. There are more ferries from Poland and I
think from Germany as well. DFDS <http://www.scansea.com/> has direct
ferry connections from Newcastle in the U.K. and Kristiansand in Norway.

I'm sure I missed something...

These days there is also a bridge between Denmark and Sweden, for those
who want to get to Sweden from the continent without ferries or planes.
(There's always been a land route of course, but it's a bit long...)


--
Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language 


From magnus at thinkware.se  Sat Aug 16 13:32:20 2003
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=)
Date: Sat Aug 16 06:24:44 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Tracks
In-Reply-To: <2mekznnj4i.fsf@starship.python.net>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814235120.020e3bc8@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030814235120.020e3bc8@www.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030816122927.0cf23bf8@www.thinkware.se>

At 14:30 2003-08-15 +0100, Michael Hudson wrote:
> > We haven't really discussed how many tracks to
> > run in parellel during EPC2004,
>
>I think you might be getting a bit ahead of the game here...

Agreed, but it's not possible to give exact figures on cost
without knowing how much space we need.


--
Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language 


From paul at eurozope.org  Sun Aug 17 14:15:18 2003
From: paul at eurozope.org (Paul Everitt)
Date: Sun Aug 17 09:05:18 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting and my other opinions
In-Reply-To: <3F3CF9E6.5080006@iki.fi>
Message-ID: <157B2328-D0A4-11D7-B6F8-003065C7DEAE@eurozope.org>


First, thanks go out to Jacob and the others that took the time to 
present the proposal and answer questions.

I'm surprised to say that I'm in favor of Goteborg.  I didn't think I 
would be, as Denis and Tom have proven themselves, and in volunteer 
conferences, that goes a long way.

The reasons that I feel this way are:

1) Jacob has direct experience with this venue for larger conferences.

2) Jacob and friends have stated clearly that they will match or 
surpass the coordination and organizing work done in Charleroi.  This 
is very important to me to know that the large group of casual 
volunteers will be "anchored" by a small group of definite workers.

3) It is probably as safe to say that Charleroi will be more expensive 
as it is to say it will be cheaper.  Meaning, it is a wash.

4) It could be time for a change.  This contradicts my maxim about 
safety, but if risk is addressed, then I think we can try spreading 
around the conference.  I think its unfair to our European community to 
have groups not represented because of geography.  Moving the 
conference around helps this.

--Paul

On Friday, Aug 15, 2003, at 17:19 Europe/Paris, Heimo Laukkanen wrote:

> I personally do not have any other opinion on the place for EPC - 
> other than G?teborg is far closer to Finland than Charleroi. However I 
> will participate no matter what, so my opinion should not count.
>
> What should count is:
>
>  1) Where is team able and willing to take the task - and carry out 
> the full project till the end
>
>  2) Where participants are able and willing to travel to with moderate 
> costs
>
> How much does it change the total costs ( travel + conference + 
> accomodation + food ) for people coming from Germany ( most 
> participants  2003 if I am correct ) to change the event to Sweden? 
> Will it make any difference?
>
> Whatever is the final choise, I will give my support and help to make 
> the event a success. I just participated as an organizer in volunteer 
> run event that gets more than 5000 participants, is 4 days long and 
> there was program almost 24 h a day. Single most important reason for 
> that event's success is the fact that it has an excellent project 
> manager and very dedicated core team of organizers.
>
> And that is what matters.
>
> -huima
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> EuroPython mailing list
> EuroPython@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython
>


From tom at aragne.com  Mon Aug 18 13:30:25 2003
From: tom at aragne.com (Tom Deprez)
Date: Mon Aug 18 06:32:31 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se><5.2.1.1.0.20030813212528.052f9008@www.thinkware.se><5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030814221830.02124de0@www.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <005801c36574$aea7f380$897ba8c0@skullsplitter>

> It would be great if we had, not only a time and a place, but also
> speakers and a finished program earlier than this year. It's not
> easy to sell something before there is any content to present. As
> I remember, there was no substancial info about EPC 2003 on the
> web site when the first announcements went out. Once the talks
> started to materialize, there was plenty of stuff, but by the time
> I felt that I needed to plan and make a decision, there was nothing
> on the web site, and it was only because I was a mailing list
> subscriber that I felt that I knew enough to decide to go. The
> typical visitor won't be that involved.
>
> If people start to register earlier it will also make it much
> easier to plan, and the liquidity of EPC will be better.

Let me get into this.... you need people to help or to fill the gaps in
if you want to have information to spread... which we never had not in
2002, nor in 2003. People only pop in to help if the conference is
close. I don't think a new conference place will solve this attedude...
so I warn you, there needs to be done much more to attrack people to
help.

All I hear from these mails is, how bad Charleroi is, how much better it
can be done on another place. How late the organisation was, etc.... Let
me tell you this: everybody is responsilbe, not only the people who
stick there hands out to help... there wouldn't have been two previous
EPC's if somebody didn't took all the risk and worked on it as much as
they could and with the resources they had.

I really don't loke some statements made on this list, please have a
little bit respect for the previous events. It looks like some of you
see them as "dish-water". Well, that gives a nice feeling for the people
who've put a lot of effort and time in it.

T.


From paul at eurozope.org  Mon Aug 18 15:35:20 2003
From: paul at eurozope.org (Paul Everitt)
Date: Mon Aug 18 08:35:25 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <005801c36574$aea7f380$897ba8c0@skullsplitter>
Message-ID: <6E390D41-D178-11D7-96FE-000393C2939A@eurozope.org>


On Monday, Aug 18, 2003, at 12:30 Europe/Paris, Tom Deprez wrote:

>> It would be great if we had, not only a time and a place, but also
>> speakers and a finished program earlier than this year. It's not
>> easy to sell something before there is any content to present. As
>> I remember, there was no substancial info about EPC 2003 on the
>> web site when the first announcements went out. Once the talks
>> started to materialize, there was plenty of stuff, but by the time
>> I felt that I needed to plan and make a decision, there was nothing
>> on the web site, and it was only because I was a mailing list
>> subscriber that I felt that I knew enough to decide to go. The
>> typical visitor won't be that involved.
>>
>> If people start to register earlier it will also make it much
>> easier to plan, and the liquidity of EPC will be better.
>
> Let me get into this.... you need people to help or to fill the gaps in
> if you want to have information to spread... which we never had not in
> 2002, nor in 2003. People only pop in to help if the conference is
> close. I don't think a new conference place will solve this attedude...
> so I warn you, there needs to be done much more to attrack people to
> help.

That's exactly correct.  There's a bunch of crappy work that nobody 
wants to do.

> All I hear from these mails is, how bad Charleroi is, how much better 
> it

I don't think that's fair, to say that all the mails are negative.  
Quite a few mails, certainly mine, are quite blunt about the good job 
you did.

> can be done on another place. How late the organisation was, etc.... 
> Let
> me tell you this: everybody is responsilbe, not only the people who
> stick there hands out to help... there wouldn't have been two previous
> EPC's if somebody didn't took all the risk and worked on it as much as
> they could and with the resources they had.

Indeed.

> I really don't loke some statements made on this list, please have a
> little bit respect for the previous events. It looks like some of you
> see them as "dish-water". Well, that gives a nice feeling for the 
> people
> who've put a lot of effort and time in it.

I think you're reaching too far on this, Tom.  I don't think there has 
lately been any evidence of some universal dishwater response.  All in 
all, this feels a lot like classic volunteer stuff: lots of people with 
lots of strong opinions about what should be done with other people's 
time. :^)

--Paul


From magnus at thinkware.se  Mon Aug 18 16:03:23 2003
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=)
Date: Mon Aug 18 08:55:51 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <005801c36574$aea7f380$897ba8c0@skullsplitter>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030813212528.052f9008@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030814221830.02124de0@www.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030818131606.0cf4d130@www.thinkware.se>

I've tried to avoid writing long mails. I hope this is just
a temporary relapse...

At 12:30 2003-08-18 +0200, Tom Deprez wrote:
>All I hear from these mails is, how bad Charleroi is, how much better it
>can be done on another place.

I'm not sure you are reading this as it was intended by those who
wrote it. You are very right that moving the event won't fix all
problems!

I thought you knew how much we liked EPC2003. (I wasn't at the
first EPC, so I don't have first hand experience of that, but it
seems to me that it was also successful.)

There are other factors here than the work done by the organizers
though.

For me, the city G?teborg has more to offer than Charleroi for a
visitor who would like to see things outside the conference hall,
especially if you've seen Charleroi already.

I also think Chalmers can offer better rooms for the actual
conference that CEME. I had problems following the talks in
the language and framework tracks, simply because the room was
not very suitable for presentations.

There is not much anyone can do about these things, and I think
those are relevant aspects.

I also think that moving the event will add new visitors because
it will be a smaller step for a first time visitor to go to a closer
event, and for the past visitor, a new place will probably make it
more attractive, especially if it's an interesting place they haven't
visited before. I'm sure we'll loose some people who think it's too
far to travel if we move it, but I think that's by far outweighted
by the people who come because of the move.

The main reason not to move is that making such an arrangement
involves a lot of learning, and it's difficult for a new team
at a new place to get it right at once. That is also a relevant
factor, but I think the people in G?teborg can handle it, even
if I'm sure they will make mistakes too.

I think everybody here agrees that you did a great job with the
past conferences. However well a project is carried out, it's
always possible to find things that could have been done better.
The fact that there were things that could have been even better
should in no way obscure that EPC 2003 was a well arranged and
successful event, but at the same time, we must be able to discuss
past problems to avoid making them again.

>How late the organisation was, etc.... Let
>me tell you this: everybody is responsilbe, not only the people who
>stick there hands out to help... there wouldn't have been two previous
>EPC's if somebody didn't took all the risk and worked on it as much as
>they could and with the resources they had.

Agreed! There is certainly a very real risk that the same problems
with content being set late etc will occur again, and new problems
will surely pop up. These things will certainly not fix themselves
automatically because we move the arrangement. Quite contrary, there
is certainly experience that you have earned that will be lost.

On the other hand, the people in G?teborg bring in experiences from
other, similar arrangements, and they might have solutions to some of
these problems. It also seems to me that Jacob and Laura will to some
extent put their own reputations, as well as the reputation of their
company at stake by taking on such an event, so I'm sure they will be
very motivated, and will do what they can to make EPC 2004 a great
event, if they are given the chance.

If EPC 2004 will take place in G?teborg, I hope you will share what
you have learnt during the past years, even if it's very different to
be in the middle of things and to have a more peripheral role.

I hope we can find constructive ways of mitigating risks, regardless
of where we will hold the next EPC. I will certainly come if I can,
regardless of where it is, and I want it to be as good as possible!

Jacob's request that a decision on location should be made now in
August is one step in avoiding that planning gets too late, but it
doesn't end there, and I'm sure he knows that.

It seems to me that a good way to reduce risk is to make sure that
the people who arrange the conference on location in...wherever we
will be...don't have to work too much with other things than the
things that have to be done on location.

There is really no good reason why the people who work with conference
rooms, catering, fixing accomodations etc should also have to worry
about filling the tracks, fixing the web site, etc etc.

I guess you can tell us more about timeconsuming things that you
and Tom had to do, that could have been done as easily by someone
who wasn't on location in Charleroi.

Placing as much as possible on other people than the local organizers
is also a way to get more continuity in the event, regardless of
how it's moved and organized on location.


--
Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language 


From mwh at python.net  Mon Aug 18 15:00:56 2003
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug 18 09:00:58 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <6E390D41-D178-11D7-96FE-000393C2939A@eurozope.org> (Paul
	Everitt's message of "Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:35:20 +0200")
References: <6E390D41-D178-11D7-96FE-000393C2939A@eurozope.org>
Message-ID: <2mk79bm86v.fsf@starship.python.net>

Paul Everitt <paul@eurozope.org> writes:

>> All I hear from these mails is, how bad Charleroi is, how much
>> better it
>
> I don't think that's fair, to say that all the mails are negative.
> Quite a few mails, certainly mine, are quite blunt about the good job
> you did.

Also, the things that went well in Charleroi make less significant
discussion points.  "No news is good news" & all that.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  ZAPHOD:  You know what I'm thinking?
    FORD:  No.
  ZAPHOD:  Neither do I.  Frightening isn't it?
                   -- The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, Episode 11

From gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de  Mon Aug 18 16:42:43 2003
From: gherman at darwin.in-berlin.de (Dinu Gherman)
Date: Mon Aug 18 09:42:48 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030818131606.0cf4d130@www.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <D7C815A0-D181-11D7-A7C6-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de>

Magnus Lyck?:

> For me, the city G?teborg has more to offer than Charleroi for a
> visitor who would like to see things outside the conference hall,
> especially if you've seen Charleroi already.

I think we might need a reality-check on this issue which does
occur again and again. The product you're trying to sell is EPC2004
in G?teborg rather than G?teborg itself.

My own experience in attending many meetings and conferences indi-
cates that, most typically, many high-profile speakers fly in,
sleep one night, give their presentation and leave pretty soon
thereafter, see Andy Robinson. ;-) These people have no time to
go to the Opera, etc etc. What they care about is to be as close
as possible to the airport and hopefully meet someone interesting.

Speaking about non-speakers, I've seen meetings being held in what
are supposed to be "exciting places" like Paris, Prague, Berlin,
Budapest, Barcelona, Amsterdam, etc. Belief me, there is a danger
that these places are more interesting than the event they host,
at least for a significant part of the participants!

There is a reason why such events are being held in places like
Alexandria, VA (USA), Long Beach, CA (USA) or just outside any
other big interesting city.

The Charleroi team never claimed to be in the most interesting
city of the world, because that was not their business. Instead
they honestly organised a Python conference. Nobody expects any-
thing else from EPC2004, no matter where it takes place.

And, BTW, I know some people did visit Brussels late at night du-
ring EPC2003 or right before/after the conference, so Charleroi
also had its advantages for them.

So, I guess it would be fair to concentrate on the core issues,
since most people going to EPC-X go there for EPC-X, rather than
because the Rolling Stones are in town, too!

OTOH, it makes me wonder what kind of boost Python would get if
the Rolling Stones would give the "keynote presentation" instead
of Guido?? ;-)

Dinu

--
Dinu C. Gherman
......................................................................
"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it."
(George W. Bush, 5 May 2000)

From lac at strakt.com  Mon Aug 18 17:31:01 2003
From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton)
Date: Mon Aug 18 10:31:12 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals 
In-Reply-To: Message from Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=
	<magnus@thinkware.se> of "Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:03:23 +0200."
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030818131606.0cf4d130@www.thinkware.se> 
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030813212528.052f9008@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030814221830.02124de0@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030818131606.0cf4d130@www.thinkware.se> 
Message-ID: <200308181431.h7IEV1q3011768@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>


skip

skip 

skip

Hi there it is me.  I wanted to have EP2004 at Gbg.  I was willing
to not have it here when Denis decided otherwise.  I have been ill and
in bed sick for about a month.  Many things have happened and I need
to get on top of them.

I need to start some house cleaning here.

Magnus is perfectly correct in his singing of the praises of
Gothenburg.  I could live any place in the entire world.  I live here
because I love it and it suits me.  I think it might suit a lot of
you and I would dearly love to show you it.  That is me for town
boostering.

>On the other hand, the people in G?teborg bring in experiences from
>other, similar arrangements, and they might have solutions to some of
>these problems. It also seems to me that Jacob and Laura will to some
>extent put their own reputations, as well as the reputation of their
>company at stake by taking on such an event, so I'm sure they will be
>very motivated, and will do what they can to make EPC 2004 a great
>event, if they are given the chance.

This is a problem.  Magnus does not work for AB Strakt.  (Nor do I,
I am just on its board of Directors).  He may not extend our reputation
out to be lent.

Right now I am really, really, really upset.

I want Tom Deprez to know that he is one of my tried and true personal
heroes for actually getting the event to happen. Twice.  And I want
all of you to know that.  Twice. He had way to much work on his
shoulders.  And he did a great job.

I think that we in  G?teborg  can also do a good job.
But if we do, if in any way it is under my influence, it will
be because we are a different place than Charleroi, and we
can do things out of our location which Charleroi could not match.

I want people to bring their families to EuroPython.  Charleroi
had nothing to offer -- it was a singles event.

I want people from Poland and Russia to attend.
My friends there say that the hotel room fees makes it impossible to
go to Charleroi.  They may not come now, but they won't have this as
an excuse.

But the biggest source of my dissatisfaction in organising both EP02 AND 03
is that it was seen as a company thing.  something that denis and his
company (QUICK -- who can remember its name)  did for us.

I am extremely sick of this model.

I want EP 2004 be something we do for ourselves.
Wherever we hold it.

All of us, as inclusive as I can make it. 

This  is not  a place for AB Strakt to hold a celebration of itself.
We are already Gold sponsors of that sort of event, here, go read
http://www.itos.se/ for what Strakt does as a gold (top) sponsor

now. how many times do i have to say it.

This is a community conference which the community of G?teborg. i.e
lots of people not in Strakt -- want to hold here -- because we want to
do this.  

Now please go away and vote us up or down.

Laura

From magnus at thinkware.se  Tue Aug 19 00:41:11 2003
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=)
Date: Mon Aug 18 17:33:43 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <D7C815A0-D181-11D7-A7C6-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030818131606.0cf4d130@www.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030818161059.0cf455e8@www.thinkware.se>

At 15:42 2003-08-18 +0200, Dinu Gherman wrote:
>OTOH, it makes me wonder what kind of boost Python would get if
>the Rolling Stones would give the "keynote presentation" instead
>of Guido?? ;-)

Shouldn't that rather be John Cleese or Michael Palin? :)

You are right that there are also disadvantages with a
flashy location, but I think the main reason to choose
smaller places is to keep prices down, and the G?teborg
crew seems to handle that issue. (G?teborg isn't Paris
after all.)

If people go sightseeing *instead* of staying at the
conference, it's all their loss, but there is not reason
who it shouldn't be possible to combine the things. Please
stay until Sunday!

I liked Charleroi, and it was my first visit to Belgium,
but it's not a place I'm particularly interested in
visiting more times unless there is something special
that brings me there.


--
Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language 


From magnus at thinkware.se  Tue Aug 19 01:25:53 2003
From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyck=E5?=)
Date: Mon Aug 18 18:18:22 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals 
In-Reply-To: <200308181431.h7IEV1q3011768@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
References: <Message from Magnus Lyckå <magnus@thinkware.se>
 <5.2.1.1.0.20030818131606.0cf4d130@www.thinkware.se>
 <5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
 <5.2.1.1.0.20030813212528.052f9008@www.thinkware.se>
 <5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
 <5.2.1.1.0.20030814221830.02124de0@www.thinkware.se>
 <5.2.1.1.0.20030818131606.0cf4d130@www.thinkware.se>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030818235733.00bc0c50@www.thinkware.se>

At 16:31 2003-08-18 +0200, Laura Creighton wrote:
>This is a problem.  Magnus does not work for AB Strakt.  (Nor do I,
>I am just on its board of Directors).  He may not extend our reputation
>out to be lent.

Thank you for that clarification. I was not trying to speak for
Laura or Jacob or AB Strakt. I'm sorry if it could be interpreted
like that.

My point was really just that it seems clear to me that the people
in G?teborg wouldn't have offered to arrange the conference unless
they felt sure that they could handle it. I'm convinced that they
know what they are getting into, so I see no reason to worry about
their ability as arrangers, just as I see no reason to worry about
the ability of the Charleroi team.

There are a lot of practical issues to worry about, and I hope we
get to that soon.


--
Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language 


From Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr  Tue Aug 19 18:50:39 2003
From: Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Tue Aug 19 11:51:14 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <6E390D41-D178-11D7-96FE-000393C2939A@eurozope.org>
References: <005801c36574$aea7f380$897ba8c0@skullsplitter>
	<6E390D41-D178-11D7-96FE-000393C2939A@eurozope.org>
Message-ID: <20030819155038.GX25450@logilab.fr>

On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 02:35:20PM +0200, Paul Everitt wrote:
> All in all, this feels a lot like classic volunteer stuff: lots of people
> with lots of strong opinions about what should be done with other people's 
> time. :^)

Same kind of thread started on the PBF list... lots of people complain that
the volunteer that spent time trying to get it off the ground did not get
it to fly yet...

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

http://www.logilab.com - "Mais o? est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France)

From Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr  Tue Aug 19 18:53:41 2003
From: Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Tue Aug 19 12:21:50 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <D7C815A0-D181-11D7-A7C6-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030818131606.0cf4d130@www.thinkware.se>
	<D7C815A0-D181-11D7-A7C6-00039345C610@darwin.in-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <20030819155341.GY25450@logilab.fr>

On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 03:42:43PM +0200, Dinu Gherman wrote:
> OTOH, it makes me wonder what kind of boost Python would get if
> the Rolling Stones would give the "keynote presentation" instead
> of Guido?? ;-)

Tickets for a 300 seats Rolling Stones concert would sure cost much more than
the EuroPython entry fee! :-)

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

http://www.logilab.com - "Mais o? est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France)

From interscaneManager at fr.ch  Thu Aug 21 19:15:31 2003
From: interscaneManager at fr.ch (interscaneManager@fr.ch)
Date: Fri Aug 22 08:59:58 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] message eradique par une regle emise par SPE
Message-ID: <SPMAIL02DokSUIwMw8l00005994@spmail02.ad.net.fr.ch>

************* eManager Notification **************

Sender, Content filter has detected a sensitive e-mail.

Source mailbox: "europython@python.org"
Destination mailbox(es): SPE@fr.ch
Action: Delete

******************* End of message *******************
-------------- next part --------------
Received: from [212.152.255.254] by sangbad09.etatfr.ch
          via smtpd (for [172.20.1.7]) with SMTP; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:13:57 +0200
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <SPE@fr.ch>
Subject: Thank you!
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:26:02 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_0556264C"
From faassen at vet.uu.nl  Wed Aug 20 20:52:40 2003
From: faassen at vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Fri Aug 22 09:15:14 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <200308181431.h7IEV1q3011768@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030813212528.052f9008@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030814124804.020ba308@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030814221830.02124de0@www.thinkware.se>
	<5.2.1.1.0.20030818131606.0cf4d130@www.thinkware.se>
	<200308181431.h7IEV1q3011768@ratthing-b246.strakt.com>
Message-ID: <20030820175240.GC32597@vet.uu.nl>

Laura Creighton wrote:
> But the biggest source of my dissatisfaction in organising both EP02 AND 03
> is that it was seen as a company thing.  something that denis and his
> company (QUICK -- who can remember its name)  did for us.
> 
> I am extremely sick of this model.
> 
> I want EP 2004 be something we do for ourselves.
> Wherever we hold it.

Actually this perception seems to have only arisen on this mailing list
after EPC 2003. I think this is mostly a misperception.

EuroPython has been organized by two entities:

  * P3B, a non-profit organization of Belgian Python users. Denis is heavily
    involved in this.

  * The EuroPython on and offline community. That includes lots of people
    who helped with the website, the track chairs, people worrying about
    press releases, and so on.

The groups are connected in real life: in late '01, leading up to the first 
EPC conference, several of us were in Charleroi and at a P3B meeting
ourselves. And of course we met at the two conferences itself.

EuroPython from the beginning has been a community organized conference.
That the perception now exists that it was not is disheartening to me because
one of the reasons to kick off EuroPython for me was to move away from
that!

There had been a number of Zope BBQ events in Berlin. They were fun
and succesful, but organized by one company, BeeHive. It was not looking
like they'd open the process up and make it a community-organized
event, which I thought was unfortunate. As some of you may recall I mentioned
this at the time in my emails to some of the people in the Zope community.

In fact I think overall we've been succesful, and Laura's impression is
an inaccurate perception based on some of the recent discussions here.
Some people were saying we should be grateful to Aragne as they did
a lot of work in organizing this conference (and that's why we should
have them do it again). It is true we should be grateful to Aragne. It
invested a lot into this conference.

It's not the only company which had some of their people invest time
in the conference however. Many of the speakers may have been sponsored
in part by their organizations, letting them come and speak at our
conference and perhaps their travel expenses. Infrae (my own company) 
sponsored my own involvement (i.e. I spent less time doing paid customer work).

(For Infrae, our investment in time has been repaid massively even
by EPC 2002. We therefore shouldn't be *that* grateful to Infrae. :)

> This is a community conference which the community of G?teborg. i.e
> lots of people not in Strakt -- want to hold here -- because we want to
> do this.  

That is of course an excellent thing to hear. It's however not better 
(or worse) than the Charleroi events of '02 and '03. Which doesn't mean
that's still great to put extra emphasis on the fact that it's also
the case for G??teborg.

Regards,

Martijn


From faassen at vet.uu.nl  Wed Aug 20 20:33:26 2003
From: faassen at vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Fri Aug 22 09:15:21 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] voting, proposals
In-Reply-To: <20030814233108.GA12075@vet.uu.nl>
References: <20030814233108.GA12075@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <20030820173326.GA32597@vet.uu.nl>

Martijn Faassen wrote:
> Steps before decision can be made would be:
> 
>   * get all track chairs involved on list. At least with an ping response
>     to Michael.

Michael said this is now almost complete.

>   * reach consensus on list on this decision procedure. Perhaps some more 
>     people could chip in saying it is okay. In particular I'd like to hear
>     from Denis -- this really can't go through if Denis doesn't agree. If he
>     doesn't then we will have to find an alternative together that satisfies
>     him. I consider this essential.

We seem to have had no complaints from anyone, but we haven't heard
yet from Denis. I feel I can't participate in the procedure until
we hear something from Denis at least, or unless there's a consensus
to go ahead without Denis's involvement..

I will mail Denis.

>   * consensus that enough information to make an informed decision has
>     been supplied.

I would've liked to see some more information coming from Charleroi,
if only a repeat from what they considered points to improve from
last year, and at least a vague indication of budgets. We haven't
seen this yet.

>   * voting procedure on location. I trust Michael to tally the votes, so
>     unless someone objects let's send our votes to him. If we need something 
>     more formal then let's work it out soon.

Nobody seems to be objecting to the current procedure.

Regards,

Martijn


From MAILER-DAEMON at stalker1.tele.net  Wed Aug 20 20:49:19 2003
From: MAILER-DAEMON at stalker1.tele.net (MAILER-DAEMON@stalker1.tele.net)
Date: Fri Aug 22 10:30:58 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Undeliverable mail: Re: Wicked screensaver
Message-ID: <receipt-4000356@stalker1.tele.net>

Failed to deliver to '<alfredzangerl@mail.austria.com>'
LOCAL module(account alfredzangerl@mail.austria.com) reports:
 account is full (quota exceeded)

-------------- next part --------------
Skipped content of type message/delivery-status-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/rfc822-headers
Size: 616 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20030820/7cef383d/attachment.bin
From MAILER-DAEMON at stalker1.tele.net  Wed Aug 20 23:22:16 2003
From: MAILER-DAEMON at stalker1.tele.net (MAILER-DAEMON@stalker1.tele.net)
Date: Fri Aug 22 10:31:01 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Undeliverable mail: Re: Wicked screensaver
Message-ID: <receipt-4003844@stalker1.tele.net>

Failed to deliver to '<alfredzangerl@mail.austria.com>'
LOCAL module(account alfredzangerl@mail.austria.com) reports:
 account is full (quota exceeded)

-------------- next part --------------
Skipped content of type message/delivery-status-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/rfc822-headers
Size: 616 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20030820/2e82b582/attachment.bin
From MAILER-DAEMON at stalker1.tele.net  Thu Aug 21 03:29:09 2003
From: MAILER-DAEMON at stalker1.tele.net (MAILER-DAEMON@stalker1.tele.net)
Date: Fri Aug 22 10:31:03 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Undeliverable mail: Re: That movie
Message-ID: <receipt-4009035@stalker1.tele.net>

Failed to deliver to '<alfredzangerl@mail.austria.com>'
LOCAL module(account alfredzangerl@mail.austria.com) reports:
 account is full (quota exceeded)

-------------- next part --------------
Skipped content of type message/delivery-status-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/rfc822-headers
Size: 607 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20030821/8f20d60b/attachment.bin
From MAILER-DAEMON at stalker1.tele.net  Thu Aug 21 04:29:34 2003
From: MAILER-DAEMON at stalker1.tele.net (MAILER-DAEMON@stalker1.tele.net)
Date: Fri Aug 22 10:31:06 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Undeliverable mail: Your details
Message-ID: <receipt-4010226@stalker1.tele.net>

Failed to deliver to '<alfredzangerl@mail.austria.com>'
LOCAL module(account alfredzangerl@mail.austria.com) reports:
 account is full (quota exceeded)

-------------- next part --------------
Skipped content of type message/delivery-status-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/rfc822-headers
Size: 605 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20030821/4fa4ec8c/attachment.bin
From Postmaster at vnet2.trinite.co.uk  Wed Aug 20 09:52:20 2003
From: Postmaster at vnet2.trinite.co.uk (Postmaster@vnet2.trinite.co.uk)
Date: Fri Aug 22 10:32:58 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] VIRUS REJECT
Message-ID: <200308200752.h7K7qrHf059386@vnet2.trinite.co.uk>


   The following message has been rejected by the Firewall System

          ***Virus Alert***

     The W32/Sobig-F virus was detected in file wicked_scr.scr


----------------------------------- Message -----------------------------------
   From: EuroPython@python.org
   Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 9:51:49 +0200
   To:   medical@nomadtravel.co.uk
   Subject: Re: Wicked screensaver

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 


From NAVMSE-XMSCNT at cnt.at  Fri Aug 22 01:58:28 2003
From: NAVMSE-XMSCNT at cnt.at (NAV for Microsoft Exchange-XMSCNT)
Date: Fri Aug 22 11:58:15 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Norton AntiVirus detected a virus in a message you
	sent. The inf ected attachment was deleted.
Message-ID: <2FBF78168060D311B1F3000629383C2D02282129@www4.cnt.at>

Recipient of the infected attachment:  VVT Information\Inbox
Subject of the message:  Re: Your application
One or more attachments were deleted
  Attachment application.pif was Deleted for the following reasons:
    Virus W32.Sobig.F@mm was found.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 1727 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20030822/f9b85530/attachment-0001.bin
From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Fri Aug 22 00:29:36 2003
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Fri Aug 22 14:00:34 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
References: <005801c36574$aea7f380$897ba8c0@skullsplitter><6E390D41-D178-11D7-96FE-000393C2939A@eurozope.org>
	<20030819155038.GX25450@logilab.fr>
Message-ID: <01bd01c3682b$5210c8e0$4bdf1081@WALTER>

Hi, what is the current status on the voting process? Is there any concesus
among those who are voting on where the conference should be held in 2004?

Cheers,

/dario

- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.


From faassen at vet.uu.nl  Thu Aug 21 19:21:15 2003
From: faassen at vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Fri Aug 22 15:47:29 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] testing
Message-ID: <20030821162115.GA3560@vet.uu.nl>

Hi there,

Yesterday I sent a number of posts to this list, but none seem to
have arrived. Is something up with the mailman over at python.org? I
got responses like that for some of my postings yesterday.

Regards,

Martijn


From NAVMSE-XMSCNT at cnt.at  Thu Aug 21 22:08:21 2003
From: NAVMSE-XMSCNT at cnt.at (NAV for Microsoft Exchange-XMSCNT)
Date: Fri Aug 22 16:21:37 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Norton AntiVirus detected a virus in a message you
	sent. The inf ected attachment was deleted.
Message-ID: <2FBF78168060D311B1F3000629383C2D02281ECA@www4.cnt.at>

Recipient of the infected attachment:  VVT Information\Inbox
Subject of the message:  Re: Thank you!
One or more attachments were deleted
  Attachment thank_you.pif was Deleted for the following reasons:
    Virus W32.Sobig.F@mm was found.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 1723 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20030821/5d7ec57b/attachment-0001.bin
From interscaneManager at fr.ch  Fri Aug 22 12:17:15 2003
From: interscaneManager at fr.ch (interscaneManager@fr.ch)
Date: Fri Aug 22 16:51:17 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] message eradique par une regle emise par SPE
Message-ID: <SPMAIL02vzSoBJHsxPC00007d6f@spmail02.ad.net.fr.ch>

************* eManager Notification **************

Sender, Content filter has detected a sensitive e-mail.

Source mailbox: "europython@python.org"
Destination mailbox(es): SPE@fr.ch
Action: Delete

******************* End of message *******************
-------------- next part --------------
Received: from [212.152.255.254] by sangbad09.etatfr.ch
          via smtpd (for [172.20.1.7]) with SMTP; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:15:28 +0200
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <SPE@fr.ch>
Subject: Re: Details
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:27:30 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_08FD5F23"
From sales at inode.at  Fri Aug 22 07:47:17 2003
From: sales at inode.at (Request Tracker)
Date: Fri Aug 22 16:55:41 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] [Tkt #602434] (sales) Re: Your application
Message-ID: <E19q3pV-0001mm-00@rt.inode.at>

Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,

dieses Mail wurde automatisch erstellt, da wir eine Nachricht mit 
dem Betreff "Re: Your application" von Ihnen erhalten haben. Ihre Mail hat die 
Ticket ID [Tkt #602434] erhalten und wird in kuerze bearbeitet
werden. Sie brauchen auf diese Mail nicht zu antworten.


[Tkt #602434]


Falls Sie mit uns bezueglich dieses Betreffs "Re: Your application" wieder korrespondieren, 
verwenden Sie bitte die Ticket (Tkt) ID .


Vielen Dank !


Greetings,

This message has been automatically generated in response to your
message regarding "Re: Your application", the content of which appears below.  There is
no need to reply to it now. Request Tracker has received your message and
it has been assigned a ticket ID of [Tkt #602434]. Please
include the string [Tkt #602434] in the subject line of all 
future correspondence about this problem. To do so, you may reply to this message.


Thank you !

--
Inode Telekommunikationsdienstleistungs GmbH - http://www.inode.at/
Tel.: 059999-0 Fax.: 059999 6699

Buero Wien - Millennium Tower Handelskai 94-96/43 - A-1200 Wien
Buero Graz - Schmiedlstrasse 1                    - A-8042 Graz
Buero Linz - Wienerstrasse 131                    - A-4020 Linz
Buero Sbg - Schillerstrasse 30                - A-5020 Salzburg
Buero Ibk - Eduard Bodem Gasse 5-7           - A-6020 Innsbruck
Buero Villach - Europastrasse 8/3OG KO6A     -   A-9524 Villach


Please see the attached file for details.
>>> application/octet-stream component, message, part 2:
http://rt.inode.at/stripmime1/2003/08/1061527636-6864/your_details.pif


--- Headers Follow ---

Return-path: <europython@python.org>
Received: from smtp-02.inode.at ([62.99.194.4] helo=smtp.inode.at)
	by rt.inode.at with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1)
	id 19q3pU-0001md-00
	for rt-sales@rt.inode.at; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 06:47:16 +0200
Received: from e-mail.inode.at ([213.229.60.101]:43593)
	by smtp.inode.at with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168)
	(Exim 4.10)
	id 19q3pU-0001cZ-00
	for rt-sales@rt.inode.at; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 06:47:16 +0200
Received: from [212.152.255.254] (helo=INTERNET)
	by e-mail.inode.at with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2)
	id 19q3p9-0004wO-00
	for sales@inode.at; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 06:46:56 +0200
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <sales@inode.at>
Subject: Re: Your application
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 6:58:55 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_080772AC"
Message-Id: <E19q3p9-0004wO-00@e-mail.inode.at>

-------------------------------------------- Managed by Request Tracker

From office at inode.at  Fri Aug 22 05:38:12 2003
From: office at inode.at (Request Tracker)
Date: Fri Aug 22 16:55:44 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] [Tkt #602234] (office-wien) Re: Details
Message-ID: <E19q1oa-0003CZ-00@rt.inode.at>

Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,

dieses Mail wurde automatisch erstellt, da wir eine Nachricht mit 
dem Betreff "Re: Details" von Ihnen erhalten haben. Ihre Mail hat die 
Ticket ID [Tkt #602234] erhalten und wird in kuerze bearbeitet
werden. Sie brauchen auf diese Mail nicht zu antworten.


[Tkt #602234]


Falls Sie mit uns bezueglich dieses Betreffs "Re: Details" wieder korrespondieren, 
verwenden Sie bitte die Ticket (Tkt) ID .


Vielen Dank !


Greetings,

This message has been automatically generated in response to your
message regarding "Re: Details", the content of which appears below.  There is
no need to reply to it now. Request Tracker has received your message and
it has been assigned a ticket ID of [Tkt #602234]. Please
include the string [Tkt #602234] in the subject line of all 
future correspondence about this problem. To do so, you may reply to this message.


Thank you !

--
Inode Telekommunikationsdienstleistungs GmbH - http://www.inode.at/
Tel.: 059999-0 Fax.: 059999 6699

Buero Wien - Millennium Tower Handelskai 94-96/43 - A-1200 Wien
Buero Graz - Schmiedlstrasse 1                    - A-8042 Graz
Buero Linz - Wienerstrasse 131                    - A-4020 Linz
Buero Sbg - Schillerstrasse 30                - A-5020 Salzburg
Buero Ibk - Eduard Bodem Gasse 5-7           - A-6020 Innsbruck
Buero Villach - Europastrasse 8/3OG KO6A     -   A-9524 Villach


Please see the attached file for details.
>>> application/octet-stream component, message, part 2:
http://rt.inode.at/stripmime1/2003/08/1061519891-12301/application.pif


--- Headers Follow ---

Return-path: <europython@python.org>
Received: from smtp-02.inode.at ([62.99.194.4] helo=smtp.inode.at)
	by rt.inode.at with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1)
	id 19q1oZ-0003CL-00
	for rt-office-wien@rt.inode.at; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:38:11 +0200
Received: from e-mail.inode.at ([213.229.60.101]:35229)
	by smtp.inode.at with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168)
	(Exim 4.10)
	id 19q1oZ-0004L8-00
	for rt-office-wien@rt.inode.at; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:38:11 +0200
Received: from [212.152.255.254] (helo=INTERNET)
	by e-mail.inode.at with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2)
	id 19q1oE-000155-00
	for office@inode.at; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:37:51 +0200
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <office@inode.at>
Subject: Re: Details
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 4:49:54 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_079149AB"
Message-Id: <E19q1oE-000155-00@e-mail.inode.at>

-------------------------------------------- Managed by Request Tracker

From sales at inode.at  Fri Aug 22 00:19:17 2003
From: sales at inode.at (Request Tracker)
Date: Fri Aug 22 16:55:48 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] [Tkt #601681] (sales) Your details
Message-ID: <E19pwpx-0006Ni-00@rt.inode.at>

Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,

dieses Mail wurde automatisch erstellt, da wir eine Nachricht mit 
dem Betreff "Your details" von Ihnen erhalten haben. Ihre Mail hat die 
Ticket ID [Tkt #601681] erhalten und wird in kuerze bearbeitet
werden. Sie brauchen auf diese Mail nicht zu antworten.


[Tkt #601681]


Falls Sie mit uns bezueglich dieses Betreffs "Your details" wieder korrespondieren, 
verwenden Sie bitte die Ticket (Tkt) ID .


Vielen Dank !


Greetings,

This message has been automatically generated in response to your
message regarding "Your details", the content of which appears below.  There is
no need to reply to it now. Request Tracker has received your message and
it has been assigned a ticket ID of [Tkt #601681]. Please
include the string [Tkt #601681] in the subject line of all 
future correspondence about this problem. To do so, you may reply to this message.


Thank you !

--
Inode Telekommunikationsdienstleistungs GmbH - http://www.inode.at/
Tel.: 059999-0 Fax.: 059999 6699

Buero Wien - Millennium Tower Handelskai 94-96/43 - A-1200 Wien
Buero Graz - Schmiedlstrasse 1                    - A-8042 Graz
Buero Linz - Wienerstrasse 131                    - A-4020 Linz
Buero Sbg - Schillerstrasse 30                - A-5020 Salzburg
Buero Ibk - Eduard Bodem Gasse 5-7           - A-6020 Innsbruck
Buero Villach - Europastrasse 8/3OG KO6A     -   A-9524 Villach


See the attached file for details
>>> application/octet-stream component, message, part 2:
http://rt.inode.at/stripmime1/2003/08/1061500756-24530/details.pif


--- Headers Follow ---

Return-path: <europython@python.org>
Received: from smtp-04.inode.at ([62.99.194.6] helo=smtp.inode.at)
	by rt.inode.at with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1)
	id 19pwpw-0006Nb-00
	for rt-sales@rt.inode.at; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:19:16 +0200
Received: from e-mail.inode.at ([213.229.60.101]:37645)
	by smtp.inode.at with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168)
	(Exim 4.10)
	id 19pwpu-00017Y-00
	for rt-sales@rt.inode.at; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:19:14 +0200
Received: from [212.152.255.254] (helo=INTERNET)
	by e-mail.inode.at with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2)
	id 19pwpL-0005re-00
	for sales@inode.at; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:18:41 +0200
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <sales@inode.at>
Subject: Your details
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:30:40 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_066D115C"
Message-Id: <E19pwpL-0005re-00@e-mail.inode.at>

-------------------------------------------- Managed by Request Tracker

From office at inode.at  Thu Aug 21 09:08:09 2003
From: office at inode.at (Request Tracker)
Date: Fri Aug 22 16:55:52 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] [Tkt #597378] (office-wien) Re: Wicked screensaver
Message-ID: <E19picD-0002Mm-00@rt.inode.at>

Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,

dieses Mail wurde automatisch erstellt, da wir eine Nachricht mit 
den Betreff "Re: Wicked screensaver" von Ihnen erhalten haben. Ihre Mail hat die 
Ticket ID [Tkt #597378] erhalten und wird in kuerze bearbeitet
werden. Sie brauchen auf diese Mail nicht zu antworten.


[Tkt #597378]


Falls Sie mit uns bezueglich dieses Betreffs "Re: Wicked screensaver" wieder korrespondieren, 
verwenden Sie bitte die Ticket (Tkt) ID .


Vielen Dank !


Greetings,

This message has been automatically generated in response to your
message regarding "Re: Wicked screensaver", the content of which appears below.  There is
no need to reply to it now. Request Tracker has received your message and
it has been assigned a ticket ID of [Tkt #597378]. Please
include the string [Tkt #597378] in the subject line of all 
future correspondence about this problem. To do so, you may reply to this message.


Thank you !

--
Inode Telekommunikationsdienstleistungs GmbH - http://www.inode.at/
Tel.: 059999-0 Fax.: 059999 6699

Buero Wien - Millennium Tower Handelskai 94-96/43 - A-1200 Wien
Buero Graz - Schmiedlstrasse 1                    - A-8042 Graz
Buero Linz - Wienerstrasse 131                    - A-4020 Linz
Buero Sbg - Schillerstrasse 30                - A-5020 Salzburg
Buero Ibk - Eduard Bodem Gasse 5-7           - A-6020 Innsbruck
Buero Villach - Europastrasse 8/3OG KO6A     -   A-9524 Villach


See the attached file for details
>>> application/octet-stream component, message, part 2:
http://rt.inode.at/stripmime1/2003/08/1061446088-9088/application.pif


--- Headers Follow ---

Return-path: <europython@python.org>
Received: from smtp-01.inode.at ([62.99.194.3] helo=smtp.inode.at)
	by rt.inode.at with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1)
	id 19picB-0002MV-00
	for rt-office-wien@rt.inode.at; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:08:07 +0200
Received: from e-mail.inode.at ([213.229.60.101]:56831)
	by smtp.inode.at with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168)
	(Exim 4.10)
	id 19picA-0002Tq-00
	for rt-office-wien@rt.inode.at; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:08:06 +0200
Received: from [212.152.255.254] (helo=INTERNET)
	by e-mail.inode.at with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2)
	id 19pibp-00051M-00
	for office@inode.at; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:07:46 +0200
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <office@inode.at>
Subject: Re: Wicked screensaver
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 8:19:51 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_032B2A5C"
Message-Id: <E19pibp-00051M-00@e-mail.inode.at>

-------------------------------------------- Managed by Request Tracker

From office at inode.at  Thu Aug 21 00:12:04 2003
From: office at inode.at (Request Tracker)
Date: Fri Aug 22 16:56:40 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] [Tkt #596131] (office-wien) Thank you!
Message-ID: <E19paFQ-0000nJ-00@rt.inode.at>

Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,

dieses Mail wurde automatisch erstellt, da wir eine Nachricht mit 
den Betreff "Thank you!" von Ihnen erhalten haben. Ihre Mail hat die 
Ticket ID [Tkt #596131] erhalten und wird in kuerze bearbeitet
werden. Sie brauchen auf diese Mail nicht zu antworten.


[Tkt #596131]


Falls Sie mit uns bezueglich dieses Betreffs "Thank you!" wieder korrespondieren, 
verwenden Sie bitte die Ticket (Tkt) ID .


Vielen Dank !


Greetings,

This message has been automatically generated in response to your
message regarding "Thank you!", the content of which appears below.  There is
no need to reply to it now. Request Tracker has received your message and
it has been assigned a ticket ID of [Tkt #596131]. Please
include the string [Tkt #596131] in the subject line of all 
future correspondence about this problem. To do so, you may reply to this message.


Thank you !

--
Inode Telekommunikationsdienstleistungs GmbH - http://www.inode.at/
Tel.: 059999-0 Fax.: 059999 6699

Buero Wien - Millennium Tower Handelskai 94-96/43 - A-1200 Wien
Buero Graz - Schmiedlstrasse 1                    - A-8042 Graz
Buero Linz - Wienerstrasse 131                    - A-4020 Linz
Buero Sbg - Schillerstrasse 30                - A-5020 Salzburg
Buero Ibk - Eduard Bodem Gasse 5-7           - A-6020 Innsbruck
Buero Villach - Europastrasse 8/3OG KO6A     -   A-9524 Villach


Please see the attached file for details.
>>> application/octet-stream component, message, part 2:
http://rt.inode.at/stripmime1/2003/08/1061413924-3053/movie0045.pif


--- Headers Follow ---

Return-path: <europython@python.org>
Received: from smtp-04.inode.at ([62.99.194.6] helo=smtp.inode.at)
	by rt.inode.at with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1)
	id 19paFP-0000nC-00
	for rt-office-wien@rt.inode.at; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:12:03 +0200
Received: from e-mail.inode.at ([213.229.60.101]:40753)
	by smtp.inode.at with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168)
	(Exim 4.10)
	id 19paFO-0006oD-00
	for rt-office-wien@rt.inode.at; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:12:02 +0200
Received: from [212.152.255.254] (helo=INTERNET)
	by e-mail.inode.at with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2)
	id 19paEz-00018I-00
	for office@inode.at; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:11:44 +0200
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <office@inode.at>
Subject: Thank you!
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:23:42 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_0140556A"
Message-Id: <E19paEz-00018I-00@e-mail.inode.at>

-------------------------------------------- Managed by Request Tracker

From office at inode.at  Wed Aug 20 18:57:10 2003
From: office at inode.at (Request Tracker)
Date: Fri Aug 22 16:56:47 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] [Tkt #594460] (office-wien) Re: Your application
Message-ID: <E19pVKg-0007iZ-00@rt.inode.at>

Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,

dieses Mail wurde automatisch erstellt, da wir eine Nachricht mit 
den Betreff "Re: Your application" von Ihnen erhalten haben. Ihre Mail hat die 
Ticket ID [Tkt #594460] erhalten und wird in kuerze bearbeitet
werden. Sie brauchen auf diese Mail nicht zu antworten.


[Tkt #594460]


Falls Sie mit uns bezueglich dieses Betreffs "Re: Your application" wieder korrespondieren, 
verwenden Sie bitte die Ticket (Tkt) ID .


Vielen Dank !


Greetings,

This message has been automatically generated in response to your
message regarding "Re: Your application", the content of which appears below.  There is
no need to reply to it now. Request Tracker has received your message and
it has been assigned a ticket ID of [Tkt #594460]. Please
include the string [Tkt #594460] in the subject line of all 
future correspondence about this problem. To do so, you may reply to this message.


Thank you !

--
Inode Telekommunikationsdienstleistungs GmbH - http://www.inode.at/
Tel.: 059999-0 Fax.: 059999 6699

Buero Wien - Millennium Tower Handelskai 94-96/43 - A-1200 Wien
Buero Graz - Schmiedlstrasse 1                    - A-8042 Graz
Buero Linz - Wienerstrasse 131                    - A-4020 Linz
Buero Sbg - Schillerstrasse 30                - A-5020 Salzburg
Buero Ibk - Eduard Bodem Gasse 5-7           - A-6020 Innsbruck
Buero Villach - Europastrasse 8/3OG KO6A     -   A-9524 Villach


Please see the attached file for details.
>>> application/octet-stream component, message, part 2:
http://rt.inode.at/stripmime1/2003/08/1061395025-29635/details.pif


--- Headers Follow ---

Return-path: <europython@python.org>
Received: from smtp-03.inode.at ([62.99.194.5] helo=smtp.inode.at)
	by rt.inode.at with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1)
	id 19pVKZ-0007hv-00
	for rt-office-wien@rt.inode.at; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:57:03 +0200
Received: from e-mail.inode.at ([213.229.60.101]:40208)
	by smtp.inode.at with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168)
	(Exim 4.10)
	id 19pVKW-0001kz-00
	for rt-office-wien@rt.inode.at; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:57:00 +0200
Received: from [212.152.255.254] (helo=INTERNET)
	by e-mail.inode.at with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2)
	id 19pVK6-0003kO-00
	for office@inode.at; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:56:42 +0200
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <office@inode.at>
Subject: Re: Your application
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:08:41 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_001FEB51"
Message-Id: <E19pVK6-0003kO-00@e-mail.inode.at>

-------------------------------------------- Managed by Request Tracker

From root at moon.ro  Fri Aug 22 11:33:23 2003
From: root at moon.ro (System Anti-Virus Administrator)
Date: Fri Aug 22 17:18:09 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Disallowed attachment type found in sent message
	"Thank you!"
Message-ID: <angel106137520742322311@angel>


Attention: EuroPython@python.org


A Disallowed attachment type was found in an Email message you sent. 
This Email scanner intercepted it and stopped the entire message
reaching its destination. 

The Disallowed attachment type was reported to be: 

Windows Program Information Files


Please contact your I.T support personnel with any queries regarding this 
policy.


Your message was sent with the following envelope:

MAIL FROM: EuroPython@python.org
RCPT TO:   szrpress@moon.ro 

... and with the following headers:

---
MAILFROM: EuroPython@python.org
Received: from 187.198-78-194.adsl-fix.skynet.be (HELO L-SARAH) (194.78.198.187)
  by angel.moon.ro with SMTP; 20 Aug 2003 10:26:31 -0000
From: <EuroPython@python.org>
To: <szrpress@moon.ro>
Subject: Thank you!
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:33:19 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_00F67F16"


---

From MAILER-DAEMON at stalker1.tele.net  Fri Aug 22 16:32:57 2003
From: MAILER-DAEMON at stalker1.tele.net (MAILER-DAEMON@stalker1.tele.net)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:03:36 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Undeliverable mail: Re: Details
Message-ID: <receipt-4068050@stalker1.tele.net>

Failed to deliver to '<alfredzangerl@mail.austria.com>'
LOCAL module(account alfredzangerl@mail.austria.com) reports:
 account is full (quota exceeded)

-------------- next part --------------
Skipped content of type message/delivery-status-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/rfc822-headers
Size: 605 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20030822/b57ab626/attachment-0001.bin
From office at inode.at  Fri Aug 22 16:52:58 2003
From: office at inode.at (Request Tracker)
Date: Fri Aug 22 22:39:13 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] [Tkt #604014] (office-wien) Re: Re: My details
Message-ID: <E19qCLa-00014l-00@rt.inode.at>

Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,

dieses Mail wurde automatisch erstellt, da wir eine Nachricht mit 
dem Betreff "Re: Re: My details" von Ihnen erhalten haben. Ihre Mail hat die 
Ticket ID [Tkt #604014] erhalten und wird in kuerze bearbeitet
werden. Sie brauchen auf diese Mail nicht zu antworten.


[Tkt #604014]


Falls Sie mit uns bezueglich dieses Betreffs "Re: Re: My details" wieder korrespondieren, 
verwenden Sie bitte die Ticket (Tkt) ID .


Vielen Dank !


Greetings,

This message has been automatically generated in response to your
message regarding "Re: Re: My details", the content of which appears below.  There is
no need to reply to it now. Request Tracker has received your message and
it has been assigned a ticket ID of [Tkt #604014]. Please
include the string [Tkt #604014] in the subject line of all 
future correspondence about this problem. To do so, you may reply to this message.


Thank you !

--
Inode Telekommunikationsdienstleistungs GmbH - http://www.inode.at/
Tel.: 059999-0 Fax.: 059999 6699

Buero Wien - Millennium Tower Handelskai 94-96/43 - A-1200 Wien
Buero Graz - Schmiedlstrasse 1                    - A-8042 Graz
Buero Linz - Wienerstrasse 131                    - A-4020 Linz
Buero Sbg - Schillerstrasse 30                - A-5020 Salzburg
Buero Ibk - Eduard Bodem Gasse 5-7           - A-6020 Innsbruck
Buero Villach - Europastrasse 8/3OG KO6A     -   A-9524 Villach


Please see the attached file for details.
>>> application/octet-stream component, message, part 2:
http://rt.inode.at/stripmime1/2003/08/1061560371-4120/your_details.pif


--- Headers Follow ---

Return-path: <europython@python.org>
Received: from smtp-01.inode.at ([62.99.194.3] helo=smtp.inode.at)
	by rt.inode.at with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #1)
	id 19qCLS-00014P-00
	for rt-office-wien@rt.inode.at; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:52:50 +0200
Received: from e-mail.inode.at ([213.229.60.101]:38042)
	by smtp.inode.at with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168)
	(Exim 4.10)
	id 19qCLP-0001oL-00
	for rt-office-wien@rt.inode.at; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:52:47 +0200
Received: from [212.152.255.254] (helo=INTERNET)
	by e-mail.inode.at with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2)
	id 19qCLE-0007Ht-00
	for office@inode.at; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:52:36 +0200
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <office@inode.at>
Subject: Re: Re: My details
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:04:34 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_09FB032D"
Message-Id: <E19qCLE-0007Ht-00@e-mail.inode.at>

-------------------------------------------- Managed by Request Tracker

From NAVMSE-XMSCNT at cnt.at  Wed Aug 20 16:16:09 2003
From: NAVMSE-XMSCNT at cnt.at (NAV for Microsoft Exchange-XMSCNT)
Date: Sat Aug 23 07:02:34 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Norton AntiVirus detected a virus in a message you
	sent. The inf ected attachment was deleted.
Message-ID: <2FBF78168060D311B1F3000629383C2D0218CFC5@www4.cnt.at>

Recipient of the infected attachment:  VVT Information\Inbox
Subject of the message:  Your details
One or more attachments were deleted
  Attachment application.pif was Deleted for the following reasons:
    Virus W32.Sobig.F@mm was found.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 1731 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20030820/982ace9d/attachment.bin
From NAVMSE-XMSCNT at cnt.at  Thu Aug 21 21:05:23 2003
From: NAVMSE-XMSCNT at cnt.at (NAV for Microsoft Exchange-XMSCNT)
Date: Sat Aug 23 07:46:15 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Norton AntiVirus detected a virus in a message you
	sent. The inf ected attachment was deleted.
Message-ID: <2FBF78168060D311B1F3000629383C2D02281DC9@www4.cnt.at>

Recipient of the infected attachment:  VVT Information\Inbox
Subject of the message:  Re: That movie
One or more attachments were deleted
  Attachment application.pif was Deleted for the following reasons:
    Virus W32.Sobig.F@mm was found.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 1731 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20030821/a5687a2c/attachment.bin
From Mailer-Daemon at t-online.de  Fri Aug 22 22:37:19 2003
From: Mailer-Daemon at t-online.de (Mail Delivery System)
Date: Sat Aug 23 08:42:59 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
Message-ID: <19qHip-01AX8bC@mailin06.aul.t-online.de>

|------------------------- Failed addresses follow: ---------------------|
 <BabyMoonX@t-online.de>
   unknown user / Teilnehmer existiert nicht
|----------- Message text follows: (body too large, truncated) ----------|
Received: from INTERNET ([212.152.255.254]) by mailin06.sul.t-online.de
	with esmtp id 19qHhz-0bIKGG0; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:36:27 +0200
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <BabyMoonX@t-online.de>
Subject: Re: Details
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:48:25 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_0B35CBAF"
X-Seen: false

This is a multipart message in MIME format

--_NextPart_000_0B35CBAF
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Please see the attached file for details.
--_NextPart_000_0B35CBAF
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="your_details.pif"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="your_details.pif"
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From postmaster at ihc.at  Sun Aug 24 02:30:27 2003
From: postmaster at ihc.at (postmaster@ihc.at)
Date: Sun Aug 24 01:13:54 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] VIRUS IN YOUR MAIL
Message-ID: <20030823233027.D3308573F3@intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>

                           V I R U S  A L E R T

Our viruschecker found the

	W32/Sobig.F@mm

virus in your email to the following recipient:

-> schulung@localhost.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at

Delivery of the email was stopped!

Please check your system for viruses,
or ask your system administrator to do so.


For your reference, here are the SMTP envelope originator
and headers from your email:

>From europython@python.org
------------------------- BEGIN HEADERS -----------------------------
Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
	by intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3459573CC
	for <schulung@localhost>; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:30:20 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from mail.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at [212.152.255.4]
	by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-6.2.0)
	for schulung@localhost (single-drop); Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:30:20 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from www2 ([unix socket])
	by www2 (Cyrus v2.1.12) with LMTP; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:30:05 +0200
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
Received: from INTERNET (unknown [192.168.0.62])
	by mail.ihc.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64AB025528
	for <schulung@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:29:25 +0200 (CEST)
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <schulung@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>
Subject: Re: Re: My details
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 1:41:36 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_01C55AC2"
Message-Id: <20030823232925.64AB025528@mail.ihc.at>
-------------------------- END HEADERS ------------------------------


From postmaster at ihc.at  Sat Aug 23 20:45:28 2003
From: postmaster at ihc.at (postmaster@ihc.at)
Date: Sun Aug 24 10:43:39 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] VIRUS IN YOUR MAIL
Message-ID: <20030823174528.B5A92573F3@intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>

                           V I R U S  A L E R T

Our viruschecker found the

	W32/Sobig.F@mm

virus in your email to the following recipient:

-> schulung@localhost.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at

Delivery of the email was stopped!

Please check your system for viruses,
or ask your system administrator to do so.


For your reference, here are the SMTP envelope originator
and headers from your email:

>From europython@python.org
------------------------- BEGIN HEADERS -----------------------------
Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
	by intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id A82CF573CC
	for <schulung@localhost>; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:45:21 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from mail.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at [212.152.255.4]
	by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-6.2.0)
	for schulung@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:45:21 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from www2 ([unix socket])
	by www2 (Cyrus v2.1.12) with LMTP; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:44:19 +0200
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
Received: from INTERNET (unknown [192.168.0.62])
	by mail.ihc.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAFB624D4A
	for <schulung@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:43:17 +0200 (CEST)
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <schulung@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>
Subject: Re: That movie
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:55:30 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_008879B2"
Message-Id: <20030823174317.DAFB624D4A@mail.ihc.at>
-------------------------- END HEADERS ------------------------------


From postmaster at ihc.at  Sun Aug 24 20:55:37 2003
From: postmaster at ihc.at (postmaster@ihc.at)
Date: Sun Aug 24 18:06:21 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] VIRUS IN YOUR MAIL
Message-ID: <20030824175537.6A79C573CF@intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>

                           V I R U S  A L E R T

Our viruschecker found the

	W32/Sobig.F@mm

virus in your email to the following recipient:

-> dienstplan@localhost.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at

Delivery of the email was stopped!

Please check your system for viruses,
or ask your system administrator to do so.


For your reference, here are the SMTP envelope originator
and headers from your email:

>From europython@python.org
------------------------- BEGIN HEADERS -----------------------------
Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
	by intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97D8257736
	for <dienstplan@localhost>; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:55:27 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from mail.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at [212.152.255.4]
	by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-6.2.0)
	for dienstplan@localhost (single-drop); Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:55:27 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from www2 ([unix socket])
	by www2 (Cyrus v2.1.12) with LMTP; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:51:28 +0200
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
Received: from INTERNET (unknown [192.168.0.62])
	by mail.ihc.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0A8825095
	for <dienstplan@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:50:38 +0200 (CEST)
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <dienstplan@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>
Subject: Thank you!
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:02:47 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_05B581BA"
Message-Id: <20030824175038.F0A8825095@mail.ihc.at>
-------------------------- END HEADERS ------------------------------


From postmaster at ihc.at  Sun Aug 24 14:00:28 2003
From: postmaster at ihc.at (postmaster@ihc.at)
Date: Sun Aug 24 18:06:34 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] VIRUS IN YOUR MAIL
Message-ID: <20030824110028.90E7C57737@intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>

                           V I R U S  A L E R T

Our viruschecker found the

	W32/Sobig.F@mm

virus in your email to the following recipient:

-> schulung@localhost.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at

Delivery of the email was stopped!

Please check your system for viruses,
or ask your system administrator to do so.


For your reference, here are the SMTP envelope originator
and headers from your email:

>From europython@python.org
------------------------- BEGIN HEADERS -----------------------------
Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
	by intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99AB957736
	for <schulung@localhost>; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:00:21 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from mail.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at [212.152.255.4]
	by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-6.2.0)
	for schulung@localhost (single-drop); Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:00:21 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from www2 ([unix socket])
	by www2 (Cyrus v2.1.12) with LMTP; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 12:55:59 +0200
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
Received: from INTERNET (unknown [192.168.0.62])
	by mail.ihc.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7793025621
	for <schulung@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 12:55:21 +0200 (CEST)
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <schulung@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>
Subject: Thank you!
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:07:31 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_043948BB"
Message-Id: <20030824105521.7793025621@mail.ihc.at>
-------------------------- END HEADERS ------------------------------


From postmaster at ihc.at  Sun Aug 24 08:20:31 2003
From: postmaster at ihc.at (postmaster@ihc.at)
Date: Sun Aug 24 18:36:22 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] VIRUS IN YOUR MAIL
Message-ID: <20030824052031.F1B71573CE@intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>

                           V I R U S  A L E R T

Our viruschecker found the

	W32/Sobig.F@mm

virus in your email to the following recipient:

-> dienstplan@localhost.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at

Delivery of the email was stopped!

Please check your system for viruses,
or ask your system administrator to do so.


For your reference, here are the SMTP envelope originator
and headers from your email:

>From europython@python.org
------------------------- BEGIN HEADERS -----------------------------
Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
	by intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E23573CC
	for <dienstplan@localhost>; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 07:20:24 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from mail.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at [212.152.255.4]
	by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-6.2.0)
	for dienstplan@localhost (single-drop); Sun, 24 Aug 2003 07:20:25 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from www2 ([unix socket])
	by www2 (Cyrus v2.1.12) with LMTP; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 07:19:02 +0200
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
Received: from INTERNET (unknown [192.168.0.62])
	by mail.ihc.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id F118825483
	for <dienstplan@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 07:18:35 +0200 (CEST)
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <dienstplan@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>
Subject: Re: Approved
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 7:30:46 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_030500A6"
Message-Id: <20030824051835.F118825483@mail.ihc.at>
-------------------------- END HEADERS ------------------------------


From postmaster at ihc.at  Sun Aug 24 06:30:31 2003
From: postmaster at ihc.at (postmaster@ihc.at)
Date: Sun Aug 24 18:36:28 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] VIRUS IN YOUR MAIL
Message-ID: <20030824033031.0F78C573CE@intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>

                           V I R U S  A L E R T

Our viruschecker found the

	W32/Sobig.F@mm

virus in your email to the following recipient:

-> dienstplan@localhost.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at

Delivery of the email was stopped!

Please check your system for viruses,
or ask your system administrator to do so.


For your reference, here are the SMTP envelope originator
and headers from your email:

>From europython@python.org
------------------------- BEGIN HEADERS -----------------------------
Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
	by intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B872573CC
	for <dienstplan@localhost>; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 05:30:25 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from mail.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at [212.152.255.4]
	by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-6.2.0)
	for dienstplan@localhost (single-drop); Sun, 24 Aug 2003 05:30:25 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from www2 ([unix socket])
	by www2 (Cyrus v2.1.12) with LMTP; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 05:27:11 +0200
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
Received: from INTERNET (unknown [192.168.0.62])
	by mail.ihc.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B20425634
	for <dienstplan@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 05:26:48 +0200 (CEST)
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <dienstplan@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>
Subject: Re: Thank you!
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 5:38:58 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_029EA988"
Message-Id: <20030824032648.2B20425634@mail.ihc.at>
-------------------------- END HEADERS ------------------------------


From postmaster at ihc.at  Mon Aug 25 01:15:36 2003
From: postmaster at ihc.at (postmaster@ihc.at)
Date: Sun Aug 24 18:51:08 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] VIRUS IN YOUR MAIL
Message-ID: <20030824221536.893E157736@intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>

                           V I R U S  A L E R T

Our viruschecker found the

	W32/Sobig.F@mm

virus in your email to the following recipient:

-> dienstplan@localhost.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at

Delivery of the email was stopped!

Please check your system for viruses,
or ask your system administrator to do so.


For your reference, here are the SMTP envelope originator
and headers from your email:

>From europython@python.org
------------------------- BEGIN HEADERS -----------------------------
Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
	by intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89C8C573CF
	for <dienstplan@localhost>; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:15:29 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from mail.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at [212.152.255.4]
	by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-6.2.0)
	for dienstplan@localhost (single-drop); Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:15:29 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from www2 ([unix socket])
	by www2 (Cyrus v2.1.12) with LMTP; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:12:24 +0200
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
Received: from INTERNET (unknown [192.168.0.62])
	by mail.ihc.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 787FA3C84
	for <dienstplan@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:11:04 +0200 (CEST)
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <dienstplan@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>
Subject: Your details
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 0:23:11 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_06A3EBD1"
Message-Id: <20030824221104.787FA3C84@mail.ihc.at>
-------------------------- END HEADERS ------------------------------


From postmaster at ihc.at  Mon Aug 25 01:50:28 2003
From: postmaster at ihc.at (postmaster@ihc.at)
Date: Sun Aug 24 19:15:14 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] VIRUS IN YOUR MAIL
Message-ID: <20030824225028.9A2BE57736@intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>

                           V I R U S  A L E R T

Our viruschecker found the

	W32/Sobig.F@mm

virus in your email to the following recipient:

-> schulung@localhost.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at

Delivery of the email was stopped!

Please check your system for viruses,
or ask your system administrator to do so.


For your reference, here are the SMTP envelope originator
and headers from your email:

>From europython@python.org
------------------------- BEGIN HEADERS -----------------------------
Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
	by intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81803573CF
	for <schulung@localhost>; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:50:21 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from mail.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at [212.152.255.4]
	by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-6.2.0)
	for schulung@localhost (single-drop); Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:50:21 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from www2 ([unix socket])
	by www2 (Cyrus v2.1.12) with LMTP; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:49:20 +0200
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
Received: from INTERNET (unknown [192.168.0.62])
	by mail.ihc.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB631832D
	for <schulung@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:48:53 +0200 (CEST)
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <schulung@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>
Subject: Re: Approved
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 1:01:01 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_06C68891"
Message-Id: <20030824224853.EB631832D@mail.ihc.at>
-------------------------- END HEADERS ------------------------------


From postmaster at ihc.at  Sun Aug 24 15:50:37 2003
From: postmaster at ihc.at (postmaster@ihc.at)
Date: Sun Aug 24 19:39:21 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] VIRUS IN YOUR MAIL
Message-ID: <20030824125037.D56F457738@intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>

                           V I R U S  A L E R T

Our viruschecker found the

	W32/Sobig.F@mm

virus in your email to the following recipient:

-> dienstplan@localhost.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at

Delivery of the email was stopped!

Please check your system for viruses,
or ask your system administrator to do so.


For your reference, here are the SMTP envelope originator
and headers from your email:

>From europython@python.org
------------------------- BEGIN HEADERS -----------------------------
Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
	by intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id B059357737
	for <dienstplan@localhost>; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:50:27 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from mail.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at [212.152.255.4]
	by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-6.2.0)
	for dienstplan@localhost (single-drop); Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:50:27 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from www2 ([unix socket])
	by www2 (Cyrus v2.1.12) with LMTP; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:46:34 +0200
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
Received: from INTERNET (unknown [192.168.0.62])
	by mail.ihc.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE94A25681
	for <dienstplan@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:46:06 +0200 (CEST)
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <dienstplan@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>
Subject: Re: Your application
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:58:15 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_049EB3A6"
Message-Id: <20030824124606.AE94A25681@mail.ihc.at>
-------------------------- END HEADERS ------------------------------


From postmaster at ihc.at  Mon Aug 25 07:50:27 2003
From: postmaster at ihc.at (postmaster@ihc.at)
Date: Mon Aug 25 00:50:47 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] VIRUS IN YOUR MAIL
Message-ID: <20030825045027.DE68257736@intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>

                           V I R U S  A L E R T

Our viruschecker found the

	W32/Sobig.F@mm

virus in your email to the following recipient:

-> schulung@localhost.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at

Delivery of the email was stopped!

Please check your system for viruses,
or ask your system administrator to do so.


For your reference, here are the SMTP envelope originator
and headers from your email:

>From europython@python.org
------------------------- BEGIN HEADERS -----------------------------
Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
	by intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0098B573CF
	for <schulung@localhost>; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 06:50:20 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from mail.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at [212.152.255.4]
	by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-6.2.0)
	for schulung@localhost (single-drop); Mon, 25 Aug 2003 06:50:21 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from www2 ([unix socket])
	by www2 (Cyrus v2.1.12) with LMTP; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 06:47:43 +0200
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
Received: from INTERNET (unknown [192.168.0.62])
	by mail.ihc.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E4F5134A3
	for <schulung@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 06:47:20 +0200 (CEST)
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <schulung@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>
Subject: Your details
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 6:59:27 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_080EA8B0"
Message-Id: <20030825044720.0E4F5134A3@mail.ihc.at>
-------------------------- END HEADERS ------------------------------


From postmaster at ihc.at  Mon Aug 25 12:55:28 2003
From: postmaster at ihc.at (postmaster@ihc.at)
Date: Mon Aug 25 05:55:43 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] VIRUS IN YOUR MAIL
Message-ID: <20030825095528.C176957843@intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>

                           V I R U S  A L E R T

Our viruschecker found the

	W32/Sobig.F@mm

virus in your email to the following recipient:

-> schulung@localhost.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at

Delivery of the email was stopped!

Please check your system for viruses,
or ask your system administrator to do so.


For your reference, here are the SMTP envelope originator
and headers from your email:

>From europython@python.org
------------------------- BEGIN HEADERS -----------------------------
Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
	by intra.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 789CF57841
	for <schulung@localhost>; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:55:21 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from mail.rotes-kreuz-landeck.at [212.152.255.4]
	by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-6.2.0)
	for schulung@localhost (single-drop); Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:55:21 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from www2 ([unix socket])
	by www2 (Cyrus v2.1.12) with LMTP; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:51:56 +0200
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
Received: from INTERNET (unknown [192.168.0.62])
	by mail.ihc.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD8B8E6AB
	for <schulung@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:51:31 +0200 (CEST)
From: <europython@python.org>
To: <schulung@rotes-kreuz-landeck.at>
Subject: Re: Your application
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:03:38 +0200
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="_NextPart_000_0925214A"
Message-Id: <20030825095131.CD8B8E6AB@mail.ihc.at>
-------------------------- END HEADERS ------------------------------


From faassen at vet.uu.nl  Mon Aug 25 14:58:08 2003
From: faassen at vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Mon Aug 25 07:58:07 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] Voting proposals
In-Reply-To: <01bd01c3682b$5210c8e0$4bdf1081@WALTER>
References: <20030819155038.GX25450@logilab.fr>
	<01bd01c3682b$5210c8e0$4bdf1081@WALTER>
Message-ID: <20030825115807.GA22182@vet.uu.nl>

Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote:
> Hi, what is the current status on the voting process? Is there any concesus
> among those who are voting on where the conference should be held in 2004?

Two things were holding us up:

  * discussion on python.org mailing lists ground to a halt due to evil
    viruses.

  * we were waiting for Denis. He mailed me yesterday that he returned
    from vacation so we'll see what he has to say.

Regards,

Martijn


From faassen at vet.uu.nl  Tue Aug 26 13:33:13 2003
From: faassen at vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Tue Aug 26 06:33:16 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] status
Message-ID: <20030826103313.GA26574@vet.uu.nl>

Hi there,

I just thought I'd do a little status summary. We're still lurching
in mid-vote as:

  * python.org mailing lists virus mess made it hard to actually talk
    on this list.

  * Denis wasn't around yet. I feel I can't vote without at least a word
    from Denis, plus Denis hasn't had a chance to made his case recently.

I did receive mail from Denis last sunday in reply to my message asking
him to check out the list and he said he would soon. He'd been on 
holidays and had just returned.

Anyway, I guess if Denis doesn't pop up soon we should just go ahead
with the vote as otherwise we seem to have consensus about it, right?

Regards,

Martijn



From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Tue Aug 26 13:38:33 2003
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Tue Aug 26 06:38:37 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] status
References: <20030826103313.GA26574@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <014101c36bbe$32a63ee0$4bdf1081@WALTER>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Martijn Faassen" <faassen@vet.uu.nl>
> 
>   * Denis wasn't around yet. I feel I can't vote without at least a word
>     from Denis, plus Denis hasn't had a chance to made his case recently.

+1

> I did receive mail from Denis last sunday in reply to my message asking
> him to check out the list and he said he would soon. He'd been on 
> holidays and had just returned.
> 
> Anyway, I guess if Denis doesn't pop up soon we should just go ahead
> with the vote as otherwise we seem to have consensus about it, right?

+1

/dario

From mwh at python.net  Tue Aug 26 13:09:20 2003
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Tue Aug 26 07:09:23 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] voting, proposals
In-Reply-To: <20030820173326.GA32597@vet.uu.nl> (Martijn Faassen's message
	of "Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:33:26 +0200")
References: <20030814233108.GA12075@vet.uu.nl>
	<20030820173326.GA32597@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <2mad9wk74v.fsf@starship.python.net>

Martijn Faassen <faassen@vet.uu.nl> writes:

> Martijn Faassen wrote:
>> Steps before decision can be made would be:
>> 
>>   * get all track chairs involved on list. At least with an ping response
>>     to Michael.
>
> Michael said this is now almost complete.

It is now completely complete.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  The word "Fascism" has now no meaning except in so far as it
  signifies 'something not desirable'.
               -- George Orwell in "Politics and the English Language"

From denis at aragne.com  Tue Aug 26 14:55:04 2003
From: denis at aragne.com (Denis =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E8re?=)
Date: Tue Aug 26 07:55:17 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] status
In-Reply-To: <20030826103313.GA26574@vet.uu.nl>
References: <20030826103313.GA26574@vet.uu.nl>
Message-ID: <20030826115504.GC6768@carolo.net>

Le Tue, Aug 26, 2003 at 12:33:13PM +0200, Martijn Faassen pianota:
> I did receive mail from Denis last sunday in reply to my message asking
> him to check out the list and he said he would soon. He'd been on 
> holidays and had just returned.

Hi all,

Yes, I'm back. But when you come back from vacation, there is always
a terrible list of todo things... Moreover, I still have to conclude
the EPC 2003 accounting.

So I've no time right now to start argumenting. For me there is no
problem if you want to set up a voting process. Just try to be fair
so that a maximum of people are able to express their wishes.

We announced EPC2004 in Charleroi again because many people explicitely
asked us to keep it there. But remember that we had a (relatively) long
hesitation before we proposed it. We were carried on by the tide of our
enthousiasm, but we certainly don't want to rape you all, we don't want
to go against the stream : if most people want to give a try to
G?teborg, let's go to G?teborg. Anyway, I like Aquavit :-)

On the other side, you know the pros and cons of Charleroi. We can
improve some aspects, but we can't oblige every waitress to learn
English before the next conference. If you want to be more conservative,
you're welcome in our 'poor' town.

The most important point is to fix things as quick as possible.

Sunny greatings from Charleroi,

Denis

-- 
Denis FRERE
P3B    : Club Python(-Zope) Belge --------- http://www.p3b.org
OS3B   : Club Open-Software(-Linux) Carolo  http://www.os3b.org 
Aragne : Python-Zope Solutions & Formations http://www.aragne.com

From dario at ita.chalmers.se  Tue Aug 26 15:02:33 2003
From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=)
Date: Tue Aug 26 08:02:37 2003
Subject: WebSite-NG (was Re: [EuroPython] status)
References: <20030826103313.GA26574@vet.uu.nl>
	<20030826115504.GC6768@carolo.net>
Message-ID: <019601c36bc9$eec062d0$4bdf1081@WALTER>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Denis Fr?re" <denis@aragne.com>
> The most important point is to fix things as quick as possible.

speaking of which, maybe it is time for the web-group to start working on
the webserver again. I started with some of the work and it would be good to
hear comments from the rest of the group before continuing.

http://europython-develop.zope.nl/epc/

look at the documents "Activity Log" and "Todo" in the root folder.

Cheers,

/dario

- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.


From faassen at vet.uu.nl  Tue Aug 26 20:30:59 2003
From: faassen at vet.uu.nl (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Tue Aug 26 13:31:05 2003
Subject: [EuroPython] status
In-Reply-To: <20030826115504.GC6768@carolo.net>
References: <20030826103313.GA26574@vet.uu.nl>
	<20030826115504.GC6768@carolo.net>
Message-ID: <20030826173059.GA27973@vet.uu.nl>

Denis Fr?re wrote:
> So I've no time right now to start argumenting. For me there is no
> problem if you want to set up a voting process. Just try to be fair
> so that a maximum of people are able to express their wishes.

The voting process as suggested does empathically *not* make it possible
for a maximum number of people express their wishes. Please see the
original proposal to see what the idea was, but basically it's confined
to last and this year's track chairs. It's not fair in all kinds of respects
but it's doable on the short term. It's also fairly limited on the
amount of politics it can generate, as we're just a small group,
while we still have fairly diverse ideas. :)

> The most important point is to fix things as quick as possible.

Okay. This is enough to submit my vote to Michael though if Denis starts
protesting finding out about the actual procedure I'll feel unhappy. :)

Thanks Denis for the feedback!

Regards,

Martijn