[EuroPython] Chat transcript April 26, 2002

[Guido van Rossum]

<faassen> shapr: I heard Jim say he might show up for the sprint @ europython.
<faassen> shapr: not confirmed yet, but I got that impression.
<faassen> shapr: I mentioned you in the whole sprint planning.
<shapr> really?
<shapr> spiffy :)
<faassen> shapr: not that I'm planning any sprint. other people are planning the sprint.
<faassen> shapr: yeah, I want you in the sprint. at the last sprint I sprinted with a guy who did all the pairing and I did all the programming. :)
<shapr> wow, thanks :)
<shapr> I should read over the zope3 code beforehand then
<faassen> shapr: anyway, Paul said..hmm..
<faassen> shapr: that's not a requirement. though it'll help, of course.
<guido> maybe it would be nice to do a python sprint too?
<faassen> guido: Laura, your favorite..
* shapr grins
<shapr> I'm looking forward to meeting her in person.
<faassen> guido: was interested in doing somekind of hacking session where business people could interact with hackers and have them hack up something useful in python in no time.
* faassen too.
<shapr> I'd love to show them jython compared to Java.
<guido> faassen: I *like* laura. she mentioned that to me too, but was disappointed that noone else showed interest.
<faassen> guido: us #python ircers have had a long fascination with Laura. and in fact I know her boyfriend, have known him for years. though only online. I was one of the people who advocated Python to him, and I think that's why she's here now in part, as he did to her. :)
<faassen> so I'm responsible, I admit it!
<faassen> guido: I like Laura too. :)
<faassen> guido: I also like to tease. :)
* guido thinks it's better to stick to the point of the meeting
<guido> my concern with laura's proposal...
<faassen> it's not yet the meeting.
<faassen> or is it? I guess it;s 14:30 now.
<guido> yes it is, it's 8:34 here.
<faassen> okay.
<shapr> maybe a pep-0042 sprint?
<faassen> where's Paul?
<shapr> want me to grab some europython attendees from #python?
<guido> ... my concern is that you don't know what kind of problems are proposed, and then you don't know if they are solvable. E.g. suppose someone comes with a hardware adaptation problem -- I'd have no clue...
<faassen> shapr: maybe not, let's keep it to planning..
<zifnabbe> well, Paul thought the irc chat wouldn't go on today. I just mailed him to tell we're at #europython
<shapr> ok
<faassen> guido: yeah, that's true.
<faassen> zifnabbe: I mean, I thought he mailed that whomever could make it would be here. Marc-Andre sort of threw some confusion in the works there for me too.
<faassen> and we'll definitely have another chat on monday as far as I can see. though perhaps 13:30 is better for me then.
<faassen> instead of 13:00
<shapr> hardware adaptation could be partially demonstrated by swig'ing a c lib maybe?
<faassen> guido: anyway, that's true. some preselection might be a good thing. Laura said she'd seen it work, though.
<guido> planning a chat is always a pain. you have to live with not everybody showing up.
<zifnabbe> yes, but I received a mail from him today, that I might could join the zope-web chat, since he thought the europython chat ... well, heck, perhaps I misread the mail
<faassen> dlk: you awake?
<guido> OK, then the other problem is, when to do that kind of sprint -- in parallel with the conference?
<faassen> oh, the zope sprint we were definitely planning *before* the conference.
<faassen> if there's to be a Hacker/Businesspeople cultural exchange, then that's not a sprint.
<faassen> and would need to be closer to the conference.
<faassen> a Python sprint in my opinion should run in parallel with the zope sprint before the conference. 
<zifnabbe> yup the zope sprint before the conference...
<faassen> though Paul was mentioning possibly having 2 separate zope sprints.
<guido> one's plenty.
<faassen> then again, we right now don't seem to have room anymore as Denis's location fell through. we can go to Godefroid's place and he can host about 8 people.
<faassen> guido: (one could for instance be UI centered and one could be code centered)
<zifnabbe> I'll have to talk again to Denis, to see what he could manage...
<faassen> zifnabbe: well, okay, but if we can possibly arrange the sprint without his managing then that'd be good. :)
<guido> faassen: but they'd still be competing with each other in terms of people
<zifnabbe> so, what's on the program list for this talk
--> NicolasC (~nico@aboukir-101-2-1-logilab.adsl.nerim.net) has joined #europython
<zifnabbe> faassen: you're right
<NicolasC> Hi folks.
<zifnabbe> Hi
<faassen> guido: Zope UI people versus Zope code people can be quite distinct, in my experience.
<faassen> NicolasC: hey!
<faassen> anyway, let'slook at the agenda here.
--> afayolle (~alf@aboukir-101-2-1-logilab.adsl.nerim.net) has joined #europython
<faassen> and let's do some preliminary discussion.
<NicolasC> so, are we to discuss the agenda at http://www.europython.org/draftwiki/ChatLogApr29 ?
<faassen> NicolasC: yeah, I was just going to paste that.
<faassen> I think we can't make final conclusions yet as that'd be unfair to the people that can only make it on monday.
<faassen> esp. Marc Andre.
<faassen> but we could do a sketch of a conclusion.
<guido> Well, we can come up with a very strong recommendation though.
* faassen agrees.
* NicolasC agrees too
<faassen> one thing that I just talked about with Andy Robinson on the phone..
<faassen> who is interested in doing the tutorial stuff..
<faassen> he said he can fill up the first half of the first day with those.
<faassen> that leaves us 2 days (2nd half of day 1, day 2, and first half of day 3)..
<faassen> for the main conference.
<faassen> as please note the conference ends (have to leave the building) by 13:00 day 3.
<guido> faassen: how many parallel tutorials is Andy planning?
<faassen> guido: I think two parallel sessions.
<guido> Topics?
<faassen> in general the assumption is that we have two things going on in paralle.
<NicolasC> it is ending by friday noon, but we could resume some talks informally after that
<guido> what are the tutorial topics that Andy proposed?
<faassen> NicolasC: yes, but we need to keep that out of the formal conference planning.w e'll have a *lot* of people around.
<guido> faassen: what are the tutorial topics that Andy proposed?
<NicolasC> For planned tutorials, see TutorialTrack in the wiki.
<faassen> guido:  yeah, yeah.
<faassen> guido: I'm answering, it's just I don't know the details. :)
<faassen> guido: not too many intro to python tutorials. he was interested in doing something reportlab.
<zifnabbe> but should we go for a full day of tutorials?
<faassen> he preferred a bunch of shorter tutorials.
<guido> are these paid tutorials?
<faassen> if it's Andy deciding..
<faassen> guido: they're part of the normal conference fare.
<faassen> then it's half a day of tutorials.
<faassen> guido: or do you mean the people giving the tutorials?
<guido> they why schedule them in a separate time slot?
<faassen> guido: well, my suggestion was to do them in paralle.
<faassen> guido: but other people seem to disagree on this.
* NicolasC doesn't
<guido> I'm not the boss here, but at O'Reilly, anything shorter than a half day goes in the regular program.
<faassen> I mean, my assumption was that we could run the tutorials in pralle.
<faassen> parallel.
<faassen> with the main sessions.
<faassen> I think we have enough room to do 3 sessions simultaneously.
--> bernhard (~bh@aktaia.intevation.org) has joined #europython
<faassen> zifnabbe: do you remember what Denis said on that? how many things we can do in parallel? at least 3, right?
<guido> Also, a ReportLab tutorial sounds like too much pushing one company's product -- no matter how good the project is.
<faassen> guido: well, that's not the only tutorial.
<faassen> guido: there's Python and XML, there's threading in Python.
<guido> faassen: please let us know what you know about what Andy proposed: which topics, how long 
<faassen> there's Python on Windows.
<faassen> guido: well, the wiki page has the stuff.
<faassen> http://europython.zope.nl/draftwiki/TutorialTrack
<faassen> as was pointed out before. :)
<guido> I didn't see that link before
<faassen> anyway, Andy has a Python on windows thing for hismelf.
<guido> I thought this was fresh from Andy's phone call (sorry)
<faassen> guido: okay, sorry to be less clear there.
<faassen> guido: it was.
<faassen> guido: but then NicolasC pointed out the wiki. :)
<faassen> and I went there.
<zifnabbe> faassen:as far as I remember, we can split the room in 4 compartments, but I don't know how big they are then...
<faassen> zifnabbe: should still be reasonably large.
<guido> the wiki has only 3 concrete proposals, and none of them very long -- could be mixed in with the rest of the conference program.
<faassen> guido: oh, sure, I am not arguing against it. :)
<guido> my recommendation: no separate tutorial time slot.
<faassen> sure, that was my recommendation too. ;)
<faassen> what do the others think?
<guido> note that changing the room dividers takes a lot of time (half hour) and makes a lot of noise in most places, so can only be done at lunch time or at night
<guido> also some places only allow the change to be made by their own personnel
<zifnabbe> so, for tutorials we also need to find some PC's. Internet connection? How many PC's?
<faassen> zifnabbe: depends on how they're planned.
<faassen> zifnabbe: anyway, that's not relevant right now.
<faassen> zifnabbe: up to Andy, but not part of the program chat.
<zifnabbe> Or are tutorials given with one big screen? ie just projected
<faassen> zifnabbe: I think that's the case.
<faassen> anyway, assuming we run the tutorials in parallel.
<zifnabbe> vote: no seperate tutorial time slot +1
<faassen> +1
<guido> zifnabbe: let's not do "hands-on" tutorials, the logistics are overwhelming. I've never done such thing at a conference.
<NicolasC> +1
<faassen> okay, let's just go with that for a bit.
<faassen> and see where we went up with the program. let's check out Dario's typical day.
<guido> people can bring their laptop, but it's best if the tutor doesn't depend on this. as a tutor you can show examples on your own laptop though (I always use IDLE with the font size set to 16 points -- works very well)
<faassen> http://europython.zope.nl/draftwiki/NewConferenceTimeTable
<zifnabbe> guido:ok. I was already thinking on the huge amount of logistics needed for that.
<faassen> we scratch anything needing huge logistics. :)
<faassen> anyway, next on the agenda is session timing. how long is a session, etc.
<faassen> here's the suggestion 35 minutes, 15 minutes discussion and 10 minutes transition.
<NicolasC> sounds good.
<faassen> hm. let's see.
<guido> what's more common is two 90 minute sessions with a half hour break in between, and 2 or 3 talks per session.
<faassen> in the schedule on the wiki page it looks like..
<faassen> 45 minutes for a sesion, and then short breaks of 15 minutes after that.
<zifnabbe> that means 60 minutes in total per talk... Isn't that too much?
<faassen> okay, let's just assume a session is 30 minutes, 10 minutes discussion (but this may vary per talk)
<faassen> hmm.
<guido> please, let's ask for mostly short talks (20-25 minutes max). most topics aren't that interesting after half an hour.
<zifnabbe> yup with Dario, we made a total of 45 minutes per talk (all included)
<faassen> with Dario, we did have breaks.
<faassen> though.
<guido> certain trusted experienced speakers can be given a 45 minute for an important topic (e.g. the tutorials)
<zifnabbe> yup, breaks of 15 minutes.
<faassen> zifnabbe: so that's your hour again. :)
<NicolasC> yesterday on the list we said that we may want attendees to have time to tour the stands in the hall...
<guido> a break every hour is too much IMO -- better have fewer, but longer breaks
<zifnabbe> breaks were needed for moving laptops, going from one track to another...
<faassen> yes, that was one motivation.
<NicolasC> should that happen between sessions or every two or three session ?
<faassen> anyway let's assume we have sessions of 40 minutes, including discussion.
<guido> within one 90-minute session, you can ask all three speakers to be prepped.
<zifnabbe> So, talks of 25 minutes + 15 minutes discussions?
<faassen> I think we shouldn't mandate discussions.
<faassen> I think we should just allot a slot for a talk.
<guido> also handy to have is a time for the speakers to test the configuration. this year at Python10 we discovered that the latest Dell 8100 laptops didn't work with Foretec's projectors... 
<faassen> and we'll just see how much time is left for a discussion, speaker can arrange that himself.
* guido feels ignored
<faassen> guido: you're not ignored.
<faassen> guido: you're dominating the discussion, in fact. ;)
<zifnabbe> Ok, so lets speak about 40 minutes in total or 35 minutes?
<faassen> we're just trying to get a handle on the requirements here. okay.
<guido> zifnabbe: have you seen my proposal for longer sessions? what do you think?
<zifnabbe> Which means we can set 2 talks before having a break...
<zifnabbe> guido: oops, no, where?
<guido> scroll back :-)
<guido> Summary: 90 minutes sessions with 3 25-minute talks
<NicolasC> if guido feels ignored, what should i feel ? :-)
<guido> NicolasC: you made a good point
<faassen> the stands thing is one of the motivations behind the breaks as currently standing.
<guido> what's the stands thing?
<NicolasC> what about 60 minutes sessions with 2 talks and 20 minutes breaks between sessions ?
<zifnabbe> yes, ok, but aren't 25 min too little? So almost no discussion possible. Or we just have the 5min PC switch as a possible extra discussion
<faassen> oh, there'll be some exhibitorrs or something. I don't think we'll have too many, but we need to keep them happy == people have time to visit them.
<guido> then use longer breaks between 90 minute sessions
<NicolasC> the 20 min between sessions could be used either to visit exhibitors or to discuss about the talks.
<zifnabbe> yup, since the small breaks won't bring too much people to stands either
<guido> plus in my experience lots of people leave sessions halfway anyway
<guido> ho long's planned for lunch break BTW?
<faassen> guido: see wiki page..hm..
<faassen> http://europython.zope.nl/draftwiki/NewConferenceTimeTable
<zifnabbe> 1.15
<NicolasC> Ok, another take at it:
<guido> how many people do we expect? what are the lunch logistics?
--> mwh (~mwh@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk) has joined #europython
<faassen> guido: the lunch logistics, if I recall from Denis..
<zifnabbe> lunch would be very simple
<NicolasC> 75 min sessions with 2 25 min talks + 10 min discussion + 5 more minutes to change speakers.
<faassen> zifnabbe: right.
<guido> zifnabbe: if you don't plan lunch very careful it wil become chaos.
<zifnabbe> ie no hot meals, just some clubs (bread with meat, vegetables, etc)
<NicolasC> speakers would have time to test equipment during the 30 min breaks between sessions
<guido> 300 people have to find a table, negotiate who sits with whom, grab their food, etc.
<faassen> NicolasC: so that's 35 minutes per talk (+ discussion), and then 5 minutes extra time to switchover in the middle.
<NicolasC> faassen: yes
<zifnabbe> wel, Denis promised he has the catering organised, ie we've hired the catering people of the conference centre
<guido> zifnabbe: prepared sandwiches sound good
<NicolasC> faassen: 35 min including discussion
<guido> make sure there's a veggie option!
<guido> better check with denis if he's checked with the catering folks about the timing.
<faassen> okay. let's just assume we have 35 minutes per talk, and they're in a block of 2 with 5 minutes in between, so that makes 75 minutes.
<NicolasC> i think guido's right about alk lenght.
<NicolasC> what can't fit in a half hour will only fit in half a day or more :-)
<faassen> if we assume that..what do we get?
<faassen> for a complete day schedule?
<faassen> I just want to see how that works out.
<zifnabbe> guido: thanks for telling the word, which I was searching for! ie sandwiches
<faassen> 90 minute blocks with 3 sessions seem to me a bit more cramped.
<NicolasC> i'm trying to write that down in the wiki.
<NicolasC> i'll point to it once done
<faassen> so I'm in favor of the 75 minutes one.
<faassen> NicolasC: great
<guido> faassen: yet, that's what we've always had at Python conferences and it's worked well there.
<shapr> I'd prefer 75 minute sessions also, more time for discussion.
<zifnabbe> guido: yes, that was in the discussion at the Berlin BBQ as well, veggie sandwiches should be available as well
<guido> advantage of 90 minutes is that you can have three 25 minute talks or two 40 minute talks
<faassen> guido: okay, then that might work as well. I guess we need a scenario for that then. :)
<faassen> guido: but Europeans are slow long boring speakers! :)
<zifnabbe> guido: ok noted, I'll talk to Denis
<faassen> guido: hm, that's right. I know you said that before, but I hadn't realized that fully yet.
<faassen> hm..
<faassen> Marc-Andre has planned his talks to be 45 minutes.
<faassen> I mean, the ones on the business track and such.
<faassen> that is, 35 minutes long with 10 minutes discussion.
<faassen> so that would fit in the 90 minute block.
<guido> Folks, I've got to go (I'm starving and need a shower :-).  I'll be there again Monday if it's at 14:30 your time, but not if earlier.
<faassen> guido: okay, thanks!
<guido> I'll keep my chat client running to extract the log though.
<guido> bye!
<shapr> bye guido!
<faassen> hm. so let's go to 3)..reallocate unused time in some tracks.
<faassen> sure, if there is a track sparse with talks I'm okay with moving it around, if everybody is okay with it.
<faassen> does anyone have fundamental objections there?
<NicolasC> beware: nothing's in the wiki for python+science, but people commited to come to talk
<faassen> NicolasC: oh, you mean we shouldn't depend on the wiki for shifting things around? :)
<NicolasC> i got the info from marc poinot today and will update the wiki after the chat ends
<zifnabbe> bye guido
<faassen> NicolasC: that's a good point. of course we won't commit to the wiki. that's the same for the Python hackers and Python application track.
<faassen> I have some people committed to come to a talk on both not yet in the wiki.
<zifnabbe> no objections
<faassen> (Alex Martelli, Christian Tismer, Armin Rigo, etc)
<faassen> anyway, perhaps we should leave 4 and 5 for the discussion monday.
<faassen> hm, phone here..
<NicolasC> i have a possible schedule in the NewConferenceTimeTable in the wiki, using 75 min sessions.
<NicolasC> what do you say ?
<zifnabbe> NicolasC: looks good
<faassen> i want the 90 checked too
<NicolasC> what will happen to the 45 min talk planned by MALemburg thought ?
<faassen> agree on phone now but 90 minutes better
<NicolasC> I'll go try 90 min
<zifnabbe> I'm called away, sorry have to leave
<-- zifnabbe (~Tom@adhemar.uz.kuleuven.ac.be) has left #europython
<NicolasC> faaseen: please go have a look at the time table in the wiki :-)
* dlk is back
<shapr> the 90 minute sessions looks good to me.
--- dlk has changed the topic to: PSU world domination planning meeting
* NicolasC thinks we could let track champions chose the schedule they want: lunch is about the same time for both
<NicolasC> anybody still in there ?
<shapr> I'm here,
<shapr> I'm trying to get the entire picture.
* NicolasC is thinking about stopping discussion for now and resuming on monday.
<faassen> me but on phone
<shapr> it looks like the PythonInBusiness track has several confirmed, and many more possibles in case someone bails out.
<shapr> the Zope track and the lightweight web services track are scheduled for the same time, it seems some web people might want to go to both (me)
<shapr> the TutorialTrack page looks a bit bare.
<NicolasC> shapr: andy robinson did not get much time to pretty-fy it
<shapr> I'd like to go to a ReportLab session.
<shapr> imho, it's an extension of the XML + Python tutorial.
<shapr> anyone else awake with comments or thoughts?
<shapr> How many talks are confirmed?
<NicolasC> reportlab tutorial is about pdf, not pyxml
<shapr> for me it's important to be able to turn a single XML source into HTML and PDF. I write e-learning stuff for a university.
<shapr> that's why it seems similar to me :)
* NicolasC is leaving for he has a lot other stuff to do.
<afayolle> you can use XSLT and XSLFO for that
<NicolasC> Bye folks, see you on monday.
<shapr> yah, I have to go back to work also.
<shapr> see you NicolasC!
<-- NicolasC has quit ("Client Exiting")
<afayolle> or you may want to go for reportlab
<afayolle> depends on what kind of things you wnat to transform.
--> spirou (~spirou@212.68.204.88) has joined #europython
<shapr> mostly my customers want me to turn e-learning content in ms word files into web pages that save the users answers.
<shapr> It appears that the discussion is adjourned till Monday.
<faassen> sorry, another phone call.
<guido> OK, I'll post the transcript now.

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)