 tags, and supplies an
interactive shell box.  "VLAM" -- very little added markup.

Crunchy "eats" HTML pages (good name then -- no Frog anymore).

This is an effective way to present a Python talk then:  write your
slides in HTML and run 'em through Crunchy.

"A regular Python interpreter inside the web browser".

Interpreter errors are intercepted and may be reprinted in different
languages (human languages).

By toggling the editor you get an embedded WYSIWYG editor.  You can
actually load and save files from your local tree in this system.  Go
ahead an launch any program in a separate process / window (Pyglet
demo -- bouncing balls).

Ian:  "Are you listening to this?"

Me:  (nodding) "yeah, writting about it".

He's showing a dynamically generated graph coming into the web page --
very AJAXy.

The doctest module helps with test-driven learning.  Very TDD (test
driven development).

Show double(arg) --> arg*2 working first, challenge page reader to
write the code in an editor box.  The doctests get applied (duck
typing -- you could pass the tests with a faux function I bet...).

PyWhip is moving in the same direction.

Using unittest is another option (instead of doctest).

Ian:  "this is very powerful!"

You can pick an analyzer, e.g. pyflakes, pychecker and analyze the
code.  There's a "code quality" measure, which varies depending on
which analyzer is chosen.

The "editarea" widget is really cool.  You can vary the size, go to
full page -- very capable.

Now he's showing stepping through with PDB, showing the local
namespace (in yellow the first time -- then white if it's "old", the
red if it changes).  There's also an output window.

Croquant (French for Crunchy) is a complement to Crunchy, an extension
of MoinMoin that adds the VLAM so when loading from a Croquant wiki,
you have Crunchy-ready content.

So Croquant is like a delivery tool, where the lesson plans
accumulate.  PyWhip is similar but more static (making the content
Wiki based is likely to promote organic growth).

Crunchy allows plugins (a talk in itself).  There's an experimental
turtle module (I knew there was a turtle in here somewhere -- glad to
see I'm not completely off the wall in remembering that).

He'd like to collaborate on some of the issues (security, user accounts...).

Crunchy is not meant as a main IDE so much as a learning tool,
reading/writing Python in classroom situations.

Q&A:  one of the A/V guys has a question (some of our A/V volunteers
are also Python developers -- others not).

Crunchy is designed to be used on your own machine (you the learner,
student, run Crunchy locally).

Great talk!  I'll definitely put a chip in the "green bucket".

Kirby

From macquigg at ece.arizona.edu  Fri Mar 27 18:26:02 2009
From: macquigg at ece.arizona.edu (David MacQuigg)
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 10:26:02 -0700
Subject: [Edu-sig] The Crunchy Way
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20090327094312.02d08390@mail.ece.arizona.edu>

At 11:30 AM 3/27/2009 -0500, kirby urner wrote:

>PyWhip is moving in the same direction.
>
>Using unittest is another option (instead of doctest).

So far, I've been able to get doctest to do anything I need in testing, even some fairly complex tests involving multiple functions, pre-test setup, post-test analysis, etc.  The unittest module feels more like a tool for professional programmers working on a big Java project.  Even with all that complex setup, you still need doctests, so you'll end up doing both.

doctest is cool, because the learning barrier is zero!  Test your function by calling it from the >>> prompt.  Cut and paste to the function's docstring, and your doctest is complete.

>So Croquant is like a delivery tool, where the lesson plans
>accumulate.  PyWhip is similar but more static (making the content
>Wiki based is likely to promote organic growth).

Not quite sure what you mean here.  Could you be more specific?

Anyone can contribute problems to PyWhip, including students.  I expect we will have a huge accumulation, and the final quality will be determined by how well we chose the best, and how well get these collections organized into a good learning sequence.

Currently PyWhip more like Citizendium than Wikipedia.  Teachers (editors) control the content.  We are talking about expanding this to allow anyone to be a teacher, and register a setup.  Students who select that setup, will then see whatever problems their teacher wants them to see.

-- Dave

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Fri Mar 27 19:52:53 2009
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:52:53 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] The Crunchy Way
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20090327094312.02d08390@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20090327094312.02d08390@mail.ece.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 12:26 PM, David MacQuigg
 wrote:

<< SNIP >>

>>So Croquant is like a delivery tool, where the lesson plans
>>accumulate. ?PyWhip is similar but more static (making the content
>>Wiki based is likely to promote organic growth).
>
> Not quite sure what you mean here. ?Could you be more specific?
>
> Anyone can contribute problems to PyWhip, including students. ?I expect we will have a huge accumulation, and the final quality will be determined by how well we chose the best, and how well get these collections organized into a good learning sequence.
>

Given I'm just taking notes here, I shouldn't claim to speak for
Andre, so I won't, but here's my own understanding:

Croquant is, like MoinMoin, a wiki framework anyone might download and
host anywhere, while Crunchy is a client-side program that again runs
on any compatible platform.  Crunchy is especially happy "eating"
Croquant's wiki pages (if marked up the right way).

In this model, there's no control over control, i.e. as with Python
itself there's no saying what people will do with it.  Anyone can
run/host either/both products.  Is PyWhip the same way?  Is the source
code in svn.  It's a closed source Google Appengine with a specific
URL, is how I look at it today.  Wrong model?

> Currently PyWhip more like Citizendium than Wikipedia. ?Teachers (editors) control the content. ?We are talking about expanding this to allow anyone to be a teacher, and register a setup. ?Students who select that setup, will then see whatever problems their teacher wants them to see.
>

Wikipedia is a specific (special case) implementation of the wiki
framework, so if PyWhip is like a *specific* wiki, then it's less like
Croquant?  Does PyWhip run the student code on the server or on the
client?  Sorry I'm unclear.

Andre was basically giving free publicity to PyWhip, spoke of it with
admiration, but wanted to explain how his own project with not quite
the same concept.  I'm still getting clear on the specific differences
myself, so any inaccuracies are mine.  Thanks in advance for
correcting any misconceptions I may had.

Kirby

> -- Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>

From aharrin at luc.edu  Fri Mar 27 19:54:50 2009
From: aharrin at luc.edu (Andrew Harrington)
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:54:50 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] Edu-sig at Pycon
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

More deatails on Friday night at Pycon:

* Dinner:  Leave from outside Ballroom FGH at 6:25PM

  Walk to 6:45 PM reservation at Maria's Mexican Restaurant, 9440 W Foster
Ave (straight south down River Road)
  Maria's is about 800 yards south of the hotel - easy walking distance.
  Inexpensive restaurant, mixed reviews, but local!
  Reservation is for 10 people.  Please add your name so I can get a better
count, or
  suggest something different!

  Attenders for Friday dinner:  Andy Harrington, Andr? Roberge, Vern Ceder,
Ian Benson, Kirby Urner, Simon Ruiz, Gregor Lingl, maybe massimo Di Pierro,
... ??

* Meeting at 8:30PM in McCarran Open Space room.  See the suggested  topics
on the BoF web page.

On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 10:43 PM, Andrew Harrington  wrote:

> Pycon attenders,
> Remember our dinner at 6:45PM Friday night!  If you have not already let me
> know you are coming, email me and/or make an entry on the BoF page
> http://us.pycon.org/2009/openspace/EduSig/
>
> --
> Andrew N. Harrington
>  Director of Academic Programs
>  Computer Science Department
>  Loyola University Chicago
>  512B Lewis Towers (office)
>  Snail mail to Lewis Towers 416
>  820 North Michigan Avenue
>  Chicago, Illinois 60611
>
> http://www.cs.luc.edu/~anh 
> Phone: 312-915-7982
> Fax:    312-915-7998
> gpd at cs.luc.edu for graduate administration
> upd at cs.luc.edu for undergrad administration
> aharrin at luc.edu as professor
>

-- 
Andrew N. Harrington
 Director of Academic Programs
 Computer Science Department
 Loyola University Chicago
 512B Lewis Towers (office)
 Snail mail to Lewis Towers 416
 820 North Michigan Avenue
 Chicago, Illinois 60611

http://www.cs.luc.edu/~anh
Phone: 312-915-7982
Fax:    312-915-7998
gpd at cs.luc.edu for graduate administration
upd at cs.luc.edu for undergrad administration
aharrin at luc.edu as professor
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From macquigg at ece.arizona.edu  Fri Mar 27 21:18:03 2009
From: macquigg at ece.arizona.edu (David MacQuigg)
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:18:03 -0700
Subject: [Edu-sig] The Crunchy Way
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20090327131741.02d08390@plus.pop.mail.yahoo.com>

At 03:34 PM 3/27/2009 -0300, Andre Roberge wrote:

>On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 2:26 PM, David MacQuigg <macquigg at ece.arizona.edu> wrote:
>>At 11:30 AM 3/27/2009 -0500, kirby urner wrote:
>>
>>>So Croquant is like a delivery tool, where the lesson plans
>>>accumulate.  PyWhip is similar but more static (making the content
>>>Wiki based is likely to promote organic growth).
>>
>>Not quite sure what you mean here.  Could you be more specific?
>>
>>Anyone can contribute problems to PyWhip, including students.  I expect we will have a huge accumulation, and the final quality will be determined by how well we chose the best, and how well get these collections organized into a good learning sequence.
>>
>>Currently PyWhip more like Citizendium than Wikipedia.  Teachers (editors) control the content.  We are talking about expanding this to allow anyone to be a teacher, and register a setup.  Students who select that setup, will then see whatever problems their teacher wants them to see.
>
>Since what I said in my talk is at the origin of Kirby's post, perhaps I should be the one to clarify.
>
>In my talk about Crunchy, I mentioned and showed (very superficially) both PyWhip and Croquant.  Croquant is a MoinMoin extension that allows to add additional markup which Crunchy can recognize and insert the requested interactive element (e.g. Python interpreter, doctest, unittest, editor, etc.) inside the browser window. Because Croquant == MoinMoin, it is a purely collaborative media where no one is the single author (with exclusive editing rights) of any example.  Someone setting a Croquant server could create a site where doctest-based problems would accumulate organically (like Wikedia).  But Croquant is static - you need to view it with Crunchy to have the interaction.
>
>PyWhip, by contrast, includes both the editing and interacting features in one app/site.  However, to use your expression, it is more like Citizendium than Wikipedia - which is essentially what I attempted to convey in my talk.

I think the essential question here is - should we allow one author to edit another's work, or preserve the original and ask the new author to submit a new problem, even if it just a minor edit of the original.  We're going with the latter for now, but at this point, anything is open for discussion.  If the new problem is a variation on the original, different numbers, etc., then we can include them both.  These are exercises.  Repetition is OK.  At some point we may want to limit the number of problems, but we are no where near that limit now.

If the new problem is a correction of some deficiency in the original - an ambiguous question, etc., then the original author has the option of including the correction in his original.  If the original author chooses not to include the correction, then the editors will have to decide whether to use the original or the corrected version.  There will never be a Wikipedia-style "edit war".

>And I did invite everyone (I would say over 100 people present) in my talk to go to PyWhip and contribute at least one problem!

Just so everyone understands, Andre is a contributor to PyWhip with full SVN access.  If there is any "competition" between PyWhip and Crunchy, it is entirely friendly.  I'm assuming all code will be available under GPL, but that is actually for Athar to decide, since he wrote it.  I think this answers Kirby's question in the next message.

99% of the value will be in the content, not the website coding.  Among the developers, I have proposed, and nobody has objected, that we use the Creative Commons license.  If this is acceptable, we will have something like this in a pop-up which appears when an author clicks SUBMIT:  
By clicking ACCEPT, you are certifying 
1) The problem you are submitting is your own work, or is a derivative 
work consistent with the original author's license. 
2) You agree that your submission will be licensed under the Creative 
Commons Attribution-Share Alike license http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0 
This means that others may modify and share your work under the same 
license. 
  [ACCEPT]  [DECLINE] 
-- Dave

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Fri Mar 27 21:44:07 2009
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:44:07 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] The Crunchy Way
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20090327131741.02d08390@plus.pop.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20090327131741.02d08390@plus.pop.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

As Andre remarked in his talk, PyWhip is still quite new, just
appeared in the last couple months.  I'm glad we're getting more of a
vision statement here from David, as that'll help any one of us
promote the site accurately.  My goal is to sustain a high degree of
realism.

Crunchy, to me, seems far more ambitious in scope.  You can evaluate
your code with a number of testers, there's the optional turtle
module, the editor goes into full page mode... it's not an IDE, as
Andre emphasized, but it's not just about writing code snippets
either.  Since it lives on your local machine, in your browser, you're
able to load and save files right there on your file tree, plus boot
up external threads (Pyglet demoed, VPython wouldn've worked just as
well no doubt).

Pywhip runs on a server, isn't about launching local processes or
accessing one's local file tree.  It doesn't go out over the web and
"eat" Python code segments in  tags.  It's more a
repository of challenges, submitted from various sources, to a client
looking for specific markup from external sites.

So:  apples and oranges in my book.  These initiatives are not aimed
to do the same thing.

Given the creative commons approach, I'm thinking it'd be easy to
translate any PyWhip repository into a Crunchy compatible wiki site.
Probably it'd be possible to go in the other direction just as easily.

Kirby

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Fri Mar 27 21:56:27 2009
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:56:27 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] The Crunchy Way
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20090327131741.02d08390@plus.pop.mail.yahoo.com>

Message-ID: 

On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 3:44 PM, kirby urner  wrote:

<< SNIP >>

> Pywhip runs on a server, isn't about launching local processes or
> accessing one's local file tree. ?It doesn't go out over the web and
> "eat" Python code segments in  tags. ?It's more a
> repository of challenges, submitted from various sources, to a client
> looking for specific markup from external sites.

Sorry:  "... more a repository of challenges, submitted from various
sources, [not] a client looking..."

I've been blogging about Pycon in addition to posting here.  We're
having an edu-sig dinner this evening, plus I think there's a BOF.
I'll try to capture some of the discussion.

Good seeing Jeff (he's pumped about teaching algebra with Python).

Steve Holden says "dunder" for "under under" (i.e. "double under")
e.g. "dunder init" means __init__.

He's now heard my alternative, so say "the init rib", i.e. we thing in
terms of a "__rib__ cage", referring to special names.  This is a
metaphoric approach, first unveiled in Vilnius.  Steve booted Wing IDE
and used "code folding" to show all the __ribs__ as one-liners --
makes the "backbone" all the more obvious.

Using these "creaturely" metaphors is a hallmark of the early
curriculum.  Ships also have ribs, reinforcing the idea that a class
is a blueprint for a kind of "container" (an object space, like a
namespace in terms of having a __dict__ and so forth).

One of the best talks so far in addition to Andre's (for me) was by
Jeff Rush, helping us sort out the differences between a "namespace"
and a "code object".  I blogged about the talk in a sort of short
hand, but it's the slides themselves that I'm looking forward to
seeing again, very enlightning.

http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2009/03/about-python-namespaces.html

I sat next to Jeff at the PSF meeting, yakked about how Portland and
Austin feel some affinity, because of the "Keep [ Portland | Austin ]
weird" campaigns.  I also confessed never having been to Austin.

http://controlroom.blogspot.com/2009/03/connected-campaigns.html

Kirby

From jeff at elkner.net  Fri Mar 27 23:59:53 2009
From: jeff at elkner.net (Jeff Elkner)
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 18:59:53 -0400
Subject: [Edu-sig] [OLPC-Chicago] OLPC/Sugar dinner this weekend - with
	Pycon guests!
In-Reply-To: <49CCF0D6.6040202@melchua.com>
References: <99c018c60903262126k127fcbf8hd31628e3307027b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<37fa1dfb0903270647p51b4f8a0r966c9ec9111ddfb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<49CCF0D6.6040202@melchua.com>
Message-ID: <37fa1dfb0903271559l1b1cf3ebtfae89f5181dc4323@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Mel,

I'll try to get you a count at our edu-sig dinner this evening.

Two questions:

1. Are we meeting for breakfast tomorrow?
2. Have you decided on a restaurant for tomorrow evening yet?

Please include Andrew Harrington in your reply, since he knows Chicago and
has been assuming the role of coordinating the edu-sig activities at the
conference.

Thanks!

jeff

On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Mel Chua  wrote:

> Jeff Elkner wrote:
>
>> Most of the educationally related talks will be given back-to-back this
>> morning, so we'll have the opportunity to gather the tribe.
>>
>
> Rock. If you can send-to-list a headcount (rough, even) before... noon
> tomorrow, that would rock. I plan on calling the restaurant after my lunch
> meetings, so knowing who'll be around would be cool. (And also let me stock
> up on browser tabs to preload in my XO in case we need info for reference
> while chatting.)
>
> So far I know Matt and I will be there, and am waiting for more "I'll be
> coming!" emails to fill in the other seats. ;)
>
> --Mel
>
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From jurgis.pralgauskis at gmail.com  Sat Mar 28 02:07:43 2009
From: jurgis.pralgauskis at gmail.com (Jurgis Pralgauskis)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 03:07:43 +0200
Subject: [Edu-sig] xturtle robocode idea?!
In-Reply-To: <49BF37DA.5010508@aon.at>
References: <34f4097d0903161721h60b3f859l5e4402f0cf2e769c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49BF37DA.5010508@aon.at>
Message-ID: <34f4097d0903271807h6f065cb0n94ff593e7ea77a7b@mail.gmail.com>

>> I've been searching around for python analogue of robocode...
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robocode
>> but then I thought xturte should be ideal for this:

I started a simple framework for it :)
https://launchpad.net/py-robocode/
http://files.akl.lt/users/jurgis/python/py-robocode/

> I'll look at this in the evening, or at most tomorrow evening.
Now You could look again :)

The implementation will need improvement anyway,
my thoughts are here
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~jurgis-pralgauskis/py-robocode/devel/annotate/head%3A/TODO.txt

What else could anyone propose?

From jeff at elkner.net  Sat Mar 28 14:26:51 2009
From: jeff at elkner.net (Jeff Elkner)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 09:26:51 -0400
Subject: [Edu-sig] OLPC/Sugar Saturday dinner...
Message-ID: <37fa1dfb0903280626n7d494166vf0f4b0209e418b8b@mail.gmail.com>

Mel Chua from OLPC and Sugar Labs will be dropping by PyCon this evening to
talk about what is going on with Sugar and OLPC.  We will meet in front of
the PyCon registration desk at 6:15 pm and head out to dinner.  I told her I
would try to round up other interested folks and make reservations for
dinner somewhere.

Two requests:

1. If you are interested, please reply to this message or let me know if you
see my in the halls at Pycon.
2. If you know a reasonable place to eat walking distance from the Hyatt,
please let me know.  If I don't hear anything I'll make a reservation at the
same Mexican place where we ate last night.

Thanks!

jeff
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From csev at umich.edu  Sat Mar 28 14:26:50 2009
From: csev at umich.edu (csev)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 08:26:50 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] Some URLs that I talked about Last Night at the BOF
Message-ID: 

Here is the URL for the AppEngine book:

http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596800697/

Here is the URL for my teaching site for the Google Book including  
some early drafts of the chapters:

www.appenginelearn.com

Here is the URL for my "Students Instructions for getting Python up  
and running" that we use across multiple courses at the University of  
Michigan.

www.pythonlearn.com

Here is the URL for my nascent Open Source Learning Management System  
written in Python/AppEngine

www.cloudcollab.com

Here is the URL for the "inverted learning management system" which  
uses JavaScript to inject the LMS into any web page that I showed to a  
few of you toward the end:

www.cloudsocial.com

Comments welcome.  Each of these is in various stages of maturity -  
mostly these are part time things that play with along with my students.

/Chuck Severance
www.dr-chuck.com

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Sat Mar 28 17:02:14 2009
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:02:14 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] OLPC/Sugar Saturday dinner...
In-Reply-To: <37fa1dfb0903280626n7d494166vf0f4b0209e418b8b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <37fa1dfb0903280626n7d494166vf0f4b0209e418b8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

I'm interested in this.  Good luck with that reservation.

FYI I blogged some of our BOF from last night, admittedly with various
personal biases (it's a blog post, not the New York Times, which is
completely unbiased as we all know (snicker)):

If others have blogged accounts or pages they'd like to see linked (I
need to add one to Crunchy, another to the edu-sig home page, which
we've agreed to delegate to Andre), just let me know.

http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2009/03/birds-of-feather.html

I don't know that we circulated anything to get all names and emails
of those present.  Oh well...

Kirby

2009/3/28 Jeff Elkner :
> Mel Chua from OLPC and Sugar Labs will be dropping by PyCon this evening to
> talk about what is going on with Sugar and OLPC.? We will meet in front of
> the PyCon registration desk at 6:15 pm and head out to dinner.? I told her I
> would try to round up other interested folks and make reservations for
> dinner somewhere.
>
> Two requests:
>
> 1. If you are interested, please reply to this message or let me know if you
> see my in the halls at Pycon.
> 2. If you know a reasonable place to eat walking distance from the Hyatt,
> please let me know.? If I don't hear anything I'll make a reservation at the
> same Mexican place where we ate last night.
>
> Thanks!
>
> jeff
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>
>

From jeff at elkner.net  Sat Mar 28 20:01:40 2009
From: jeff at elkner.net (Jeff Elkner)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 15:01:40 -0400
Subject: [Edu-sig] [OLPC-Chicago] OLPC/Sugar dinner this weekend - with
	Pycon guests!
In-Reply-To: <49CE71FB.4030207@melchua.com>
References: <99c018c60903262126k127fcbf8hd31628e3307027b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<37fa1dfb0903270647p51b4f8a0r966c9ec9111ddfb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<49CCF0D6.6040202@melchua.com>
	<37fa1dfb0903271559l1b1cf3ebtfae89f5181dc4323@mail.gmail.com>
	<49CE71FB.4030207@melchua.com>
Message-ID: <37fa1dfb0903281201n30fabc8at21565a4883fff64b@mail.gmail.com>

So far only Andre Roberge has confirmed that he will join us.  I did not
make reservations yet since if it only the three of us I don't think we will
need them.  I can't email the olpc-chicago list since it is subscribers only
(Andy, can you help with this please?).  My last email to that list bounced.

On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Mel Chua  wrote:

> Can you do me a favor since I'm about to not have net access, and email the
> olpc-chicago list with the location change? 847.970.8484 is my # in case
> anyone (on any list) has q's.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --Mel (RSI hates me atm)
>
> Jeff Elkner wrote:
>
>> Hi Mel,
>>
>> I'll try to get you a count at our edu-sig dinner this evening.
>>
>> Two questions:
>>
>> 1. Are we meeting for breakfast tomorrow?
>> 2. Have you decided on a restaurant for tomorrow evening yet?
>>
>> Please include Andrew Harrington in your reply, since he knows Chicago and
>> has been assuming the role of coordinating the edu-sig activities at the
>> conference.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> jeff
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Mel Chua > mel at melchua.com>> wrote:
>>
>>    Jeff Elkner wrote:
>>
>>        Most of the educationally related talks will be given
>>        back-to-back this morning, so we'll have the opportunity to
>>        gather the tribe.
>>
>>
>>    Rock. If you can send-to-list a headcount (rough, even) before...
>>    noon tomorrow, that would rock. I plan on calling the restaurant
>>    after my lunch meetings, so knowing who'll be around would be cool.
>>    (And also let me stock up on browser tabs to preload in my XO in
>>    case we need info for reference while chatting.)
>>
>>    So far I know Matt and I will be there, and am waiting for more
>>    "I'll be coming!" emails to fill in the other seats. ;)
>>
>>    --Mel
>>
>>
>>
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From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Sat Mar 28 20:06:54 2009
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 14:06:54 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] [OLPC-Chicago] OLPC/Sugar dinner this weekend - with
	Pycon guests!
In-Reply-To: <37fa1dfb0903281201n30fabc8at21565a4883fff64b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <99c018c60903262126k127fcbf8hd31628e3307027b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<37fa1dfb0903270647p51b4f8a0r966c9ec9111ddfb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<49CCF0D6.6040202@melchua.com>
	<37fa1dfb0903271559l1b1cf3ebtfae89f5181dc4323@mail.gmail.com>
	<49CE71FB.4030207@melchua.com>
	<37fa1dfb0903281201n30fabc8at21565a4883fff64b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

Hey Jeff, is this with reference to dinner this Saturday evening?

This was me replying in the affirmative earlier:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2009-March/009198.html

I'm heading downtown to catch the Buckminster Fuller exhibit at Museum
of Contemporary Art, maybe with Steve Holden, some Portland friends?
We shall see.

Sorry in advance if I've missed an event tonight.

Kirby

2009/3/28 Jeff Elkner :
> So far only Andre Roberge has confirmed that he will join us.? I did not
> make reservations yet since if it only the three of us I don't think we will
> need them.? I can't email the olpc-chicago list since it is subscribers only
> (Andy, can you help with this please?).? My last email to that list bounced.
>
> On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Mel Chua  wrote:
>>
>> Can you do me a favor since I'm about to not have net access, and email
>> the olpc-chicago list with the location change? 847.970.8484 is my # in case
>> anyone (on any list) has q's.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> --Mel (RSI hates me atm)
>>
>> Jeff Elkner wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Mel,
>>>
>>> I'll try to get you a count at our edu-sig dinner this evening.
>>>
>>> Two questions:
>>>
>>> 1. Are we meeting for breakfast tomorrow?
>>> 2. Have you decided on a restaurant for tomorrow evening yet?
>>>
>>> Please include Andrew Harrington in your reply, since he knows Chicago
>>> and has been assuming the role of coordinating the edu-sig activities at the
>>> conference.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> jeff
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Mel Chua >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> ? ?Jeff Elkner wrote:
>>>
>>> ? ? ? ?Most of the educationally related talks will be given
>>> ? ? ? ?back-to-back this morning, so we'll have the opportunity to
>>> ? ? ? ?gather the tribe.
>>>
>>>
>>> ? ?Rock. If you can send-to-list a headcount (rough, even) before...
>>> ? ?noon tomorrow, that would rock. I plan on calling the restaurant
>>> ? ?after my lunch meetings, so knowing who'll be around would be cool.
>>> ? ?(And also let me stock up on browser tabs to preload in my XO in
>>> ? ?case we need info for reference while chatting.)
>>>
>>> ? ?So far I know Matt and I will be there, and am waiting for more
>>> ? ?"I'll be coming!" emails to fill in the other seats. ;)
>>>
>>> ? ?--Mel
>>>
>>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>
>

From andre.roberge at gmail.com  Sun Mar 29 16:03:24 2009
From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (Andre Roberge)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 11:03:24 -0300
Subject: [Edu-sig] Updating the edu-sig page
Message-ID: <7528bcdd0903290703t65361110o88396ab34737a16c@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,

I have been given permission to edit the edu-sig page (
http://www.python.org/community/sigs/current/edu-sig/) on the official
Python web site.  Think of me as the Benevolent Edu-Sig Slave For Now,
answering to the community as to what changes you'd like to see being made
on that page.

So, I am looking for community input as to what kind of changes you'd like
to see. Before you go wild with suggestions, I'd like to share a some
observations and a suggestion.

1. Doing changes to that page involves an official commit to the svn
repository.  As other people might be monitoring changes, I don't want to
overwhelm them with tons of small commits.
2.a) There is a lot of material on that page that is duplicated (sometimes
poorly) with information that can be found elsewhere.  For example, the
section "Shells and Editors" contains links to
http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEditors and
http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments, in addition
to actual links to a few tools.
2.b) Note the "wiki" part of the two links mentioned in 2.a) above.  This
means that YOU can edit such pages, without having to send me an email with
you thoughts, waiting for me to act on it, worrying about me selectively
editing the information you submit, etc.

So, I am thinking that the edu-sig page should become a high level
description of what is available elsewhere and that a lot of the "meat"
should be actually hosted on wiki.python.org - which could be kept up to
date much more easily and much more effectively by the community as a whole.

Yours,

Andr?
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From guido at python.org  Sun Mar 29 17:44:07 2009
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 10:44:07 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] Updating the edu-sig page
In-Reply-To: <7528bcdd0903290703t65361110o88396ab34737a16c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7528bcdd0903290703t65361110o88396ab34737a16c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

2009/3/29 Andre Roberge :
> I have been given permission to edit the edu-sig page
> (http://www.python.org/community/sigs/current/edu-sig/) on the official
> Python web site.? Think of me as the Benevolent Edu-Sig Slave For Now,
> answering to the community as to what changes you'd like to see being made
> on that page.
>
> So, I am looking for community input as to what kind of changes you'd like
> to see. Before you go wild with suggestions, I'd like to share a some
> observations and a suggestion.
>
> 1. Doing changes to that page involves an official commit to the svn
> repository.? As other people might be monitoring changes, I don't want to
> overwhelm them with tons of small commits.

Please don't worry about this. Go wild. Do what's right for yourself
and the edu-sig community, please don't worry about people watching
the changes fly by. We're quite used to ignoring email out here. :-)

> 2.a) There is a lot of material on that page that is duplicated (sometimes
> poorly) with information that can be found elsewhere.? For example, the
> section "Shells and Editors" contains links to
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEditors and
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments, in addition
> to actual links to a few tools.

I like the idea of not having too much duplicate information (which
will inevitably get out of sync at some point), but at the same time I
would warn for trying to "normalize" this kind of information *too*
much. If commonly needed info is three clicks away, most people won't
have given up before finding it.

> 2.b) Note the "wiki" part of the two links mentioned in 2.a) above.? This
> means that YOU can edit such pages, without having to send me an email with
> you thoughts, waiting for me to act on it, worrying about me selectively
> editing the information you submit, etc.
>
> So, I am thinking that the edu-sig page should become a high level
> description of what is available elsewhere and that a lot of the "meat"
> should be actually hosted on wiki.python.org - which could be kept up to
> date much more easily and much more effectively by the community as a whole.

Beware though, wiki pages often go stale without anybody noticing for
a long time. Another problem with wikis is that well-meaning
contributors often insert duplicate information into different places,
which will just bewilder the readers. A good strategy to deal with
this is to have someone (or several people, if it's a large and active
wiki) who watches changes and occasionally cleans things up, perhaps
moving things around so that they are linked more logically, adding
cross-links, deleting outdated information, etc. Spam probably *won't*
be a big problem, except possibly for the wiki's front page (spammers
are lazy). Note that the wiki also has a mechanism that can send email
when a page is changed.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From guido at python.org  Sun Mar 29 18:25:18 2009
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 11:25:18 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] Some URLs that I talked about Last Night at the BOF
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

Thanks for posting all these links! And thanks to all who attended the
App Engine BOF at PyCon!

I only have some silly nits to add, which are just about what to call
the product.

First, please never refer to it as "The Google App Engine." It's the
product's name, so it's just "Google App Engine." (You don't refer to
Python as "the Python" do you? :-)

Next, if you can avoid it, don't use the abbreviation "GAE". If you
want to be brief, say "App Engine".

Finally, I sometimes see people call it "Google Apps Engine." This is
a conflation of "Google Apps" (a totally different Google product!)
and "App Engine."

Finally, if you have a choice, write "App Engine" rather than "AppEngine."

--Guido

On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 8:26 AM, csev  wrote:
> Here is the URL for the AppEngine book:
>
> http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596800697/
>
> Here is the URL for my teaching site for the Google Book including some
> early drafts of the chapters:
>
> www.appenginelearn.com
>
> Here is the URL for my "Students Instructions for getting Python up and
> running" that we use across multiple courses at the University of Michigan.
>
> www.pythonlearn.com
>
> Here is the URL for my nascent Open Source Learning Management System
> written in Python/AppEngine
>
> www.cloudcollab.com
>
> Here is the URL for the "inverted learning management system" which uses
> JavaScript to inject the LMS into any web page that I showed to a few of you
> toward the end:
>
> www.cloudsocial.com
>
> Comments welcome. ?Each of these is in various stages of maturity - mostly
> these are part time things that play with along with my students.
>
> /Chuck Severance
> www.dr-chuck.com
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From csev at umich.edu  Mon Mar 30 04:21:38 2009
From: csev at umich.edu (csev)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:21:38 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig] Some URLs that I talked about Last Night at the BOF
In-Reply-To: 
References: 

Message-ID: <8332BD87-97D6-4CE7-9021-B20CB3C7E31B@umich.edu>

Guido,

Thanks for the comments - I edited the web sites using the terminology  
you suggest below.

Thankfully we had already gone through the O'Reilly book with a fine  
tooth comb and used the exact terminology you suggest below - I just  
had not gone back and cleaned up my web sites.

I have at least one more review of the book before it hits the  
printers so I will look closely to see if I have any extra "the's"  :)

/Chuck

On Mar 29, 2009, at 11:25 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:

> Thanks for posting all these links! And thanks to all who attended the
> App Engine BOF at PyCon!
>
> I only have some silly nits to add, which are just about what to call
> the product.
>
> First, please never refer to it as "The Google App Engine." It's the
> product's name, so it's just "Google App Engine." (You don't refer to
> Python as "the Python" do you? :-)
>
> Next, if you can avoid it, don't use the abbreviation "GAE". If you
> want to be brief, say "App Engine".
>
> Finally, I sometimes see people call it "Google Apps Engine." This is
> a conflation of "Google Apps" (a totally different Google product!)
> and "App Engine."
>
> Finally, if you have a choice, write "App Engine" rather than  
> "AppEngine."
>
> --Guido

From punch at msu.edu  Mon Mar 30 18:54:20 2009
From: punch at msu.edu (punch at msu.edu)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 12:54:20 -0400
Subject: [Edu-sig] Suggestions for edu web site
Message-ID: <20090330125420.99451f7u4oyrep18@mail.msu.edu>

?Hi, 

I have to admit I am mostly a lurker on this page and don't post, but 

after my wonderful experience at Pycon 09 I was emboldened to be more 

active. Great experience! 

I should think that the three primary points to make on the web page are: 

1) Where is python not being used in education. I think redirecting 

people to other universities who are using python would be most helpful. 

2) Any evidence that can be presented that Python is helpful in 

education. I can point to the paper that Enbody and I presented at Pycon 

and SIGCSE but there must be others like that. This can be used by 

others to try and get Python into their curriculum 

3) Index to resources (books, slides, problem sets, tutorials) that 

education folks would find helpful. 

The IDE's, shells, libraries should be referenced but not maintained 

here since we will not keep up with it as well. 

My (first) two cents worth. Nice to meet folks at Pycon and I hope to be 

more active in this group as a result of that nice experience. 

? ? ? ? >>>bill<<< 
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From goldwamh at slu.edu  Tue Mar 31 00:24:03 2009
From: goldwamh at slu.edu (Michael H. Goldwasser)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:24:03 -0500
Subject: [Edu-sig]  Suggestions for edu web site
In-Reply-To: <20090330125420.99451f7u4oyrep18@mail.msu.edu>
References: <20090330125420.99451f7u4oyrep18@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <18897.18051.513621.827370@Michael-Goldwassers-Computer.local>

On Monday March 30, 2009, punch at msu.edu wrote: 

>    1) Where is python not being used in education. I think redirecting 
>    
>    people to other universities who are using python would be most helpful. 

I'm sure this was a Freudian slip, but for now I think we'll need to
stick to listing places where python is being used, rather than those
places where it is not being used.  In ten years, who knows...

More sincerely, I'd like to echo Bills list of the three categories
for inclusion on the edu page (links to schools/courses, academic
papers, teaching resources).  I also share his views on the enjoyment
of the interactions at Pycon.  It was a pleasure to meet so many
contributors in person.

With regard,
Michael

       +-----------------------------------------------
       | Michael Goldwasser
       | Associate Professor
       | Dept. Mathematics and Computer Science
       | Saint Louis University
       | 220 North Grand Blvd.
       | St. Louis, MO 63103-2007
       |
       | Office: Ritter Hall 6
       | Email:  goldwamh at slu.edu
       | URL:    http://cs.slu.edu/~goldwasser
       | Phone:  (314) 977-7039
       | Fax:    (314) 977-1452

From andre.roberge at gmail.com  Tue Mar 31 01:03:57 2009
From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (Andre Roberge)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 20:03:57 -0300
Subject: [Edu-sig] Suggestions for edu web site
In-Reply-To: <18897.18051.513621.827370@Michael-Goldwassers-Computer.local>
References: <20090330125420.99451f7u4oyrep18@mail.msu.edu>
	<18897.18051.513621.827370@Michael-Goldwassers-Computer.local>
Message-ID: <7528bcdd0903301603j76557d41j141339d8d03b2b59@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Michael H. Goldwasser wrote:

>
> On Monday March 30, 2009, punch at msu.edu wrote:
>
> >    1) Where is python not being used in education. I think redirecting
> >
> >    people to other universities who are using python would be most
> helpful.
>
> I'm sure this was a Freudian slip, but for now I think we'll need to
> stick to listing places where python is being used, rather than those
> places where it is not being used.  In ten years, who knows...
>
> More sincerely, I'd like to echo Bills list of the three categories
> for inclusion on the edu page (links to schools/courses, academic
> papers, teaching resources).  I also share his views on the enjoyment
> of the interactions at Pycon.  It was a pleasure to meet so many
> contributors in person.
>

I certainly can see why we'd want to include both "academic papers" and
"teaching resources" as categories on the edu-sig page.

As for "schools and courses", I have been wondering if doing so would not
have a negative effect unless we had a fairly large number of places to link
(as per comment above)...  In any event, let's start collecting data:

Institution  -   Courses

Saint Louis University (link?) - courses: ??  (link to online calendar would
be appreciated)

Andr?

> With regard,
> Michael
>
>       +-----------------------------------------------
>       | Michael Goldwasser
>       | Associate Professor
>       | Dept. Mathematics and Computer Science
>       | Saint Louis University
>       | 220 North Grand Blvd.
>       | St. Louis, MO 63103-2007
>       |
>       | Office: Ritter Hall 6
>       | Email:  goldwamh at slu.edu
>       | URL:    http://cs.slu.edu/~goldwasser
>       | Phone:  (314) 977-7039
>       | Fax:    (314) 977-1452
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>
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From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Tue Mar 31 07:43:17 2009
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:43:17 -0700
Subject: [Edu-sig] thoughts on edu-sig HTML page
Message-ID: 

Here's some of my thinking re the edu-sig page, which I managed up to
the time python.org converted from cvs to svn.

For those not at Pycon, a core theme was a plan to shift the tectonic
plate (platform) yet again, to either bzr or hg.  Perhaps the decision
has been made by now, as Guido was encouraging.  I favor hg but for
reasons unrelated to software so probably not relevant.

Regarding the page itself:  I hope it will continue serving as a
recruiting tool for bringing "fresh blood" to edu-sig this discussion
group.  Drawing more people into the conversation, the threads, is a
worthy end in itself.

I hope Andre will *not* feel he's been tasked with managing some
infernal list of "all schools using Python" because:

(a) that quickly becomes one of those thankless "list management jobs" and

(b) it actually backfires if you're trying to spread Python, because a
static list implies we know everything that's going on, whereas a
truly dynamic spread pattern will leave us clueless and in the dust a
lot of the time (how many schools in China, clued about FOSS...).**
Also...

(c) many of these schooling functions are internal to a company in
some private sector context i.e. edu-sig should stay friendly to
engineer trainers tasked with andragogy within a more corporate
setting, so are we going to track those schools as well? (O'Reilly
School of Technology comes to mind, a hybrid in offering academic
certification -- let's call it the University of Phoenix demographic
for shorthand perhaps?).

I'm wondering if (c) is the more controversial point in that it's (i)
adult-centric (there's maybe a bias on edu-sig to think we're bound by
a shared interest in "computer programming for children" as if adults
aren't our business) and (ii) not exclusively academic (there's maybe
a bias on edu-sig that academia has some automatic edge when it comes
to teaching (whereas the circus has always competed with skool)).

But fortunately, (a) and (b) build my case irrespective of (c), so we
can shelve those points for backstage discussion.

I just don't want Andre to get stuck with some onerous janitorial duty
that's unnecessary to our growth and ongoing prosperity as a
community.

Finally, I think it's really cool that a whole PhD thesis was done on
this very mail list, and I hope we keep a link to it (back to the
opening "recuiting for edu-sig" meme).

In terms of where to find on-line resources that will help you learn
Python really effectively and quickly, I'd say lets point to trade
book sites, text book sites, and some places like ShowMeDo e.g. I've
got my six 'Python for Math Teachers' etc.,

Kirby

** Given how students come up to me because I'm wearing some Python
decal and say they've been exposed through there school, respect the
language, I'd say realistically speaking there's too much going on to
pretend to track.  edu-sig is not air traffic control.

From lac at openend.se  Tue Mar 31 09:11:19 2009
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:11:19 +0200
Subject: [Edu-sig] thoughts on edu-sig HTML page
In-Reply-To: Message from kirby urner  of "Mon,
	30 Mar 2009 22:43:17 PDT."

References:  
Message-ID: <200903310711.n2V7BJTK008106@theraft.openend.se>

Maybe what we need, more, is a list of who is on the list who is
teaching courses in python.  If we did this in a wiki, and asked people
to put a date by their names we could mitigate the problem of 
wikis going stale a bit.  (They's still go stale, but at least
you would get some sort of warning when you looked something up.)
Combining this with 'what they have to share' and 'what they are
looking for' and 'what their specialties are' might make this a
useful list.

just an idea,
Laura

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Tue Mar 31 15:53:42 2009
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 06:53:42 -0700
Subject: [Edu-sig] thoughts on edu-sig HTML page
In-Reply-To: <200903310711.n2V7BJTK008106@theraft.openend.se>
References: 

	<200903310711.n2V7BJTK008106@theraft.openend.se>
Message-ID: 

I'm all for wikis, more mutable, less a bottleneck.  They sometimes
become sprawling (and that's not a "bad thing" necessarily).  A
wonderful tool, thank you Ward Cunningham.

And because edu-sig the page (about 8.5 x 11 or so, if printed?) is so
concise and to the point, we've got the main Wiki we know about
covered (at python.org itself right?).

I definitely look for ways to promote my Pythonic Math sequence (e.g.
through Saturday Academy in April) and imagine many others would
welcome such recruiting opportunities i.e. "recruiting" should very
much be in the picture here somewhere, and without a need to pay the
big bucks for a listing (low barriers to the spread of Pythonic memes
means you're not trying to become a "language lawyer" complete with
powers to exclude competition simply on the basis of some high
monetary barrier to entering -- that'd be completely antithetical to
what the FOSS bosses have been building -- our liberal / noob-friendly
bazaar).

Anyway, +1 Laura's reminding of Wikis, which Andre doesn't have to
worry about (except which to link to).

Kirby

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Laura Creighton  wrote:
> Maybe what we need, more, is a list of who is on the list who is
> teaching courses in python. ?If we did this in a wiki, and asked people
> to put a date by their names we could mitigate the problem of
> wikis going stale a bit. ?(They's still go stale, but at least
> you would get some sort of warning when you looked something up.)
> Combining this with 'what they have to share' and 'what they are
> looking for' and 'what their specialties are' might make this a
> useful list.
>
> just an idea,
> Laura
>
>

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Tue Mar 31 16:20:12 2009
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 07:20:12 -0700
Subject: [Edu-sig] more about Pycon
Message-ID: 

Here's a major theme of Pycon for me, something I learned:

ACID-compliant SQL is a wonderful tool and many Python APIs backend
into those to great positive benefit.

However, with cloud and network programming, there's inherent
asynchrony and sometimes "eventual consistency" is all you need, i.e.
that "right now and always" flavor of ACID is something you're willing
to trade away (called "dropping ACID") in exchange for other benefits.

So the age of network programming with widely distributed server
architectures is taking us into a post-SQL world, not in the sense
that SQL is going away, but in the sense that it's definitely not the
best answer to every prayer.

Deciding which non-SQL tools you might need and which Python APIs go
with it is as much a twisting tree as the SQL world's is.  I think
this is a good focus for user groups, as been of ours in Portland (not
just in Python circles, but like in Admirers of JavaScript, another
group meeting at CubeSpace I've joined).

Here's one of my blog write-ups:
http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2009/03/patterns-in-python.html

I also wanted to again express my appreciation for Jeff Rush's talk,
which I'm going to study a lot more.  Steve Holden's segment on the
difference between iterators and iterables and how to turn the latter
into the former was also a paradigm of clear teaching (that guy is a
master).

My blog post around Jeff's talk is sort of "student notes" in style,
gives the idea but the slides are what you really want to check out
(adding link):
http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2009/03/about-python-namespaces.html

Speaking of Wikis, I'd love to see one of those VLAM enabled ones
linked from edu-sig and have our edu-sig community submit to it as a
sandbox or playground (in addition to supporting PyWHIP etc.).

Kirby

From punch at msu.edu  Tue Mar 31 16:45:35 2009
From: punch at msu.edu (punch at msu.edu)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 10:45:35 -0400
Subject: [Edu-sig] thoughts on HTML page
Message-ID: <20090331104535.888316rpygg0ccy7@mail.msu.edu>

Thank you to Michael for catching my (perhaps hopeful) miscue. Yes, I  
did indeed mean to list places where python is being taught. Andre  
opined that perhaps the list might be too short, making it look like  
Python is behind. There is a link in the Python  
wiki?http://wiki.python.org/moin/SchoolsUsingPython which lists a  
number of schools, though it is very out of date and lacks many links.  
It seems to indicate there are enough places to?have a substantial list.

However, how to get a good list and maintain it? Perhaps Laura's idea  
of a wiki where individuals can stand up for their course and other  
institutions they know about. That would keep the work load down. We  
could extract what we need from that occasionally for a nice  
presentation.

Ditto for papers/slides and ed resources.

We might also try to recruit people from institutions to be part of  
the group and maintain their local information.

Question remains, how to organize so the load isn't all on Andre.

    >>>bill<<<

From andre.roberge at gmail.com  Tue Mar 31 17:01:40 2009
From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (Andre Roberge)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 12:01:40 -0300
Subject: [Edu-sig] thoughts on HTML page
In-Reply-To: <20090331104535.888316rpygg0ccy7@mail.msu.edu>
References: <20090331104535.888316rpygg0ccy7@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <7528bcdd0903310801h1fcf11bclf5a728af34841b5d@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 11:45 AM,  wrote:

SNIP

> Question remains, how to organize so the load isn't all on Andre.
>

I really appreciate the concern (expressed by others as well).  :-)

Here's what I hope to achieve before Sunday.

1. I will create a temporary copy of the current edu-sig page for comparison
purpose - on the www.python.org site
2. I will write a first draft of the new page (with a link to the copy of
the old one for comparison).  I will aim to find the right balance between
having the right number of direct links to specific web sites (for example:
Guido van Robot at http://gvr.sourceforge.net) that would be of immediate
potential interest to educators, and links to pages containing collections
of links (e.g. for editors & IDEs, schools, colleges and universities
offering Python courses, etc.) and create the relevant stub page (if they do
not already exist) on wiki.python.org where everyone could add links of
interest.
3. I will make an announcement on this list whenever I make some significant
changes to the edu-sig page.

Until I do this, I might not comment on any further suggestion that you make
on this list; however, rest assured that I am reading every message and will
try to incorporate suggestions into a coherent whole.

Andr?

>
>   >>>bill<<<
>
> _______________________________________________
> Edu-sig mailing list
> Edu-sig at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>
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From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Tue Mar 31 17:03:51 2009
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 08:03:51 -0700
Subject: [Edu-sig] more economics of Python...
Message-ID: 

Two things I got feedback on, actually three:

(0) linking increasing FOSS mastery in schools to more merit pay, with
already-employed teachers getting time to learn on the job (called
"inservice") is a likely model, charters an easier place to start
where inertia runs high

(1) having bevy of numerate FOSS-trained faculty run more of an
inhouse stack, with students apprenticing, leaving records (school
lore), is a side-benefit of getting these new competencies, shows
teachers applying their skills daily (good role modeling, more than
just making Moodles)

(2) Pycon is committed to a private sector business track but could
spin off a more academic incarnation.  Jeff Rush and I were yakking
about marketing something like:

T-Shirt:

class Edu(Pycon):
   where = "in Portland, 2010"
   def __init__(self, me):
       self.me = me

>>> lucky_me = Edu("registered!")
>>> lucky_me.where
'in Portland, 2011'

i.e. we could do an EduPycon at a college campus someplace (instead of
a hotel).  Pacific University?  No need to wait for Portland (a FOSS
capital).

Gregor, sorry to miss your talk on the turtle module.

Ian Benson, Steve Holden and I managed to take in the Bucky Fuller
exhibit on Sunday, though we went through pretty quickly, given Ian
and I both had planes to catch.  I bought a museum membership, maybe
will make it again before it closes in June?

http://coffeeshopsnet.blogspot.com/2009/03/greetings-from-chicago.html

Thinking more about (0), there's this tendency to want to escape high
school teaching if the skills get that good i.e. when I was doing grad
school courses towards becoming a high school math teacher (which
happened later that year), a lot of the students at St. Peter's
College were going the other direction i.e. increasing technology
skills to move on from teaching (too much burnout, not enough academic
freedom, too low status).

New charter designs could fix a lot of these problems e.g. LEP High
blends in an entrepreneurship model wherein seniors start apprenticing
and/or running their own prototype businesses.

This keeps the teachers actively engaged in a more private sector
mindset, means bridging Pycon and EduPycon shouldn't be that hard.

Small wrinkle is the state teachers' union (or some minority within
it) hates LEP High because it makes everyone else look bad, in terms
of its using Edubuntu, teaching more relevant tracks, emphasis on
early college enrollment etc. (not unlike Matsu District AK in that
regard).

Moves by the board to close it down are only serving to draw attention
to the contrast, i.e. has the potential to backfire big time.

The Obama Administration is already on record in support of
charter-driven reforms so this is not some traditional "labor democrat
versus aristocracy" puzzle (LEP High mostly serves underprivileged, is
a bona fide public school when it some to philosophy, recruitment,
emphasis on citizenship (in the sense of developing skills for
participation in democracy)).

Anyway, not wanting to bore ya'll with a lot of local politics, just
thinking out loud about the "FOSS API" in our school systems i.e.
where is the interface and how is it shaped?  I expect we'll explore
this at OS Bridge in June, among other venues.  Maybe think about
coming?  Portland is a great town and we have a 400 room hotel we'd
like to put you in. :)  Last day for early bird registration and/or
talk submission is today though.

Kirby

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Tue Mar 31 17:04:12 2009
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 08:04:12 -0700
Subject: [Edu-sig] more economics of Python...
Message-ID: 