From lavendula6654 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 4 01:07:52 2007 From: lavendula6654 at yahoo.com (Elaine) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 16:07:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Edu-sig] Python class at Foothill College Message-ID: <377578.5567.qm@web31714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If you would like to learn Python, Foothill College is offering a course starting Wed. evening, 10 January, at the Middlefield campus on the corner of San Antonio and Middlefield Road in south Palo Alto. The course is designed for students who are already familiar with some type of programming. Here is the course description: CIS 68K "INTRODUCTION TO PYTHON PROGRAMMING" 5 Units This course will introduce students to the Python language and environment. Python is a portable, interpreted, object-oriented programming language that is often compared to Perl, Java, Scheme and Tcl. The language has an elegant syntax, dynamic typing, and a small number of powerful, high-level data types. It also has modules, classes, and exceptions. Meets Wednesday evenings, 6:00 - 9:40, 10 January - 28 March. If you would like to sign up for the class, please register beforehand by going to: http://www.foothill.fhda.edu/reg/index.php If you have questions, you can contact the instructor at: haightElaine at foothill.edu __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Jan 7 14:46:25 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 08:46:25 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] A Womens Perspective Message-ID: <45A0F9B1.4040403@optonline.com> Paragraph One, of Lisa Randall's recent book "Warped Passages" http://www.warpedpassages.com/ """ When I was a young girl, I loved the play and intellectual games in math problems or in books like Alice in Wonderland. But although reading was one of my favorite activities, books about science usually seemed more remote and less inviting to me - I never felt sufficiently engaged or challenged, the tone often seemed condescending to readers, overly worshipful of scientists, or boring. """ It seems to me that enough issues that have been touched upon here are embedded in this simple paragraph, that it is worth citing here. Women, math, women and , reading, condescension as anti-motivational, worshipful as anti-motivational. Certainly Lisa Randall is not Joe Average. It is also true that in my discourse with educators - about programming and such - - my views are often quickly discounted on the grounds that I am not representative - presumably smarter than - their students. And I always picture myself sitting in back of their class looking distracted, disinterested, and not very smart at all. Which, in fact, is generally where I could be found, and the pose in which I could be found. But I was there, in that pose, perhaps precisely because I was correctly understanding the atmosphere. In fact, being smart. Art From andre.roberge at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 20:36:06 2007 From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (Andre Roberge) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 15:36:06 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Pre-PEP was: The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000 In-Reply-To: <7528bcdd0612220803l5824dbdege7fb0cfcb4727cd4@mail.gmail.com> References: <7528bcdd0609131827q57966b8csf39b98920d5d0570@mail.gmail.com> <7528bcdd0612220803l5824dbdege7fb0cfcb4727cd4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7528bcdd0701071136v5b12a840v8d092ee8959366c2@mail.gmail.com> My apologies to those that feel annoyed I reply to one of my own post (on December 22), without any other intervenor in between. The pre-PEP has received some attention, including some positive one from GvR. Those interested to see his initial response can see it here: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2006-December/005249.html Then, on December 23, he wrote: --------------- BTW, can someone clean up and check in the proto-PEP and start working on an implementation or patch? Should be really simple. I'd like to see a patch for the refactoring tool (sandbox/2to3) as well. --Guido --------------- I take this as a very positive sign. Unfortunately, there appear to have been no follow-up since. Perhaps it is because it was so late in the year, and when everyone came back, the issue had been forgotten. In any event, I plan to go to Pycon 2007 and, if it hasn't been followed-up by then, do some lobbying on behalf of all those on edu-sig who have manifested their support for this issue in the past. Andr? P.S. Crunchy will be leading the way: I am planning to have support for input()/raw_input() in the next release, and the semantic will be that they will behave identically (i.e. return a string). It is already implemented for the embedded interpreter in svn. On 12/22/06, Andre Roberge wrote: > Hi all- > > I finally got the time to do a follow-up on python-3000 based on my original message on edu-sig. > > Those interested can look it up here: > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2006-December/005242.html > > As I don't subscribe to the python-3000 list, I probably won't do any follow-up; we'll see what comes out of the discussion. > > Andr? > > > On 9/13/06, Andre Roberge wrote: > > Hi-all, > > > > Having had a look at the discussion on the Python-3000 mailing list, I thought > > it was appropriate to write a draft PEP with the intent of eventually posting > > it on the Python 3000 list for "serious" discussion/future decision. > > > > > [snip] > From vceder at canterburyschool.org Sun Jan 7 20:49:47 2007 From: vceder at canterburyschool.org (Vern Ceder) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 14:49:47 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Pre-PEP was: The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000 In-Reply-To: <7528bcdd0701071136v5b12a840v8d092ee8959366c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <7528bcdd0609131827q57966b8csf39b98920d5d0570@mail.gmail.com> <7528bcdd0612220803l5824dbdege7fb0cfcb4727cd4@mail.gmail.com> <7528bcdd0701071136v5b12a840v8d092ee8959366c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45A14EDB.6080803@canterburyschool.org> Andr?, This is indeed good news and for my part seems to be the best solution. Thanks for putting together the proposal and lobbying on our behalf. See you at PyCon... :) Cheers, Vern Ceder Andre Roberge wrote: > My apologies to those that feel annoyed I reply to one of my own post > (on December 22), without any other intervenor in between. > > The pre-PEP has received some attention, including some positive one > from GvR. Those interested to see his initial response can see it > here: > > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2006-December/005249.html > > Then, on December 23, he wrote: > --------------- > BTW, can someone clean up and check in the proto-PEP and start working > on an implementation or patch? Should be really simple. I'd like to > see a patch for the refactoring tool (sandbox/2to3) as well. > > --Guido > --------------- > > I take this as a very positive sign. Unfortunately, there appear to > have been no follow-up since. Perhaps it is because it was so late in > the year, and when everyone came back, the issue had been forgotten. > In any event, I plan to go to Pycon 2007 and, if it hasn't been > followed-up by then, do some lobbying on behalf of all those on > edu-sig who have manifested their support for this issue in the past. > > Andr? > > P.S. Crunchy will be leading the way: I am planning to have support > for input()/raw_input() in the next release, and the semantic will be > that they will behave identically (i.e. return a string). It is > already implemented for the embedded interpreter in svn. > > On 12/22/06, Andre Roberge wrote: >> Hi all- >> >> I finally got the time to do a follow-up on python-3000 based on my original message on edu-sig. >> >> Those interested can look it up here: >> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2006-December/005242.html >> >> As I don't subscribe to the python-3000 list, I probably won't do any follow-up; we'll see what comes out of the discussion. >> >> Andr? >> >> >> On 9/13/06, Andre Roberge wrote: >>> Hi-all, >>> >>> Having had a look at the discussion on the Python-3000 mailing list, I thought >>> it was appropriate to write a draft PEP with the intent of eventually posting >>> it on the Python 3000 list for "serious" discussion/future decision. >>> >>> >> [snip] >> > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig -- This time for sure! -Bullwinkle J. Moose ----------------------------- Vern Ceder, Director of Technology Canterbury School, 3210 Smith Road, Ft Wayne, IN 46804 vceder at canterburyschool.org; 260-436-0746; FAX: 260-436-5137 From andre.roberge at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 02:36:53 2007 From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (Andre Roberge) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 21:36:53 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Crunchy news Message-ID: <7528bcdd0701071736p247a19a5pacddf4b8064fcab4@mail.gmail.com> Hi everyone, Over the holiday, Johannes and I have been working on complementary parts of crunchy and quite a bit of progress has been accomplished. While we are not quite ready to do a nicely packaged release (with updated documentation), I thought I should point out the existence of a new home and public svn repository from which it can be checked out. The url is http://code.google.com/p/crunchy/source If you are curious, feel free to check out the code, try it out, and give us some feedback. Crunchy has now evolved from a single program into a suite which consists of three main parts: Crunchy itself: Transform a specially marked-up html-based Python tutorial into an interactive tutorial viewed within a webbrowser (Firefox support) Crunchy has changed significantly since the last (0.7) release. Among the many changes, it now features a 'real' editor embedded in the browser. While doing the required markup to transform an html-based tutorial into a crunchy-ready one is pretty straightforward, a new tool has been developed that greatly facilitate the task. This new program is currently named Chewy. Both of these are in the branch labeled "andre" of the above mentioned svn repository, and are fully functional. I'm hoping to have something very close to a 1.0 version released for both Chewy and Crunchy by Pycon 2007. By then, the name *may* have changed to something "more serious". In Johannes's branch (johann), you can find the beginning of a server that could be used in a classroom environment. Its code name is Crispy (although you won't find a file by that name), and it is not yet doing anything really useful, but should in the near future. In addition, Johannes has has started to work on Crinkly, a sub-project of Crispy, designed to do automatic grading of student (doctest-based) assignments. This has not yet found its way in the repository. Andr? From jonah at ccnmtl.columbia.edu Mon Jan 8 16:32:24 2007 From: jonah at ccnmtl.columbia.edu (Jonah Bossewitch) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 10:32:24 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] reliefsim - a python-based educational simulation Message-ID: Hi, We (ccnmtl.columbia.edu) have an educational simulation written in python, that we have actually been able to successfully run on an OLPC dev board. At the moment, this program is not yet officially released, but if there is interest, I think I can work on getting it released under the GPL. Information about the game - http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/reliefsim/ Temporary access to the source until it is officially released - http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/draft/jonah/reliefsim/reliefsim.py and the instructions: http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/draft/jonah/reliefsim/ ReliefSimInstructionsv1.1.doc The game is taught in a curricular context, and there are lesson plans available too, as well as discussions of the underlying pedagogy and assessment. So, I have actually been able to successfully run this program on the OLPC dev board (it's a command line program using only core libraries) - the only catch was that using console shells would require tweaking the program, since it needs more rows and scrolling would be nice. So, anyone in this little python simulation? SJ over at OLPC mentioned that a proper xterm is a possibility for sugar, for just these scenarios, so perhaps this game could provide the impetus for landing that. best, /Jonah ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jonah Bossewitch Senior Technical Architect ccnmtl.columbia.edu jonah at ccnmtl dot columbia dot edu 212.854.1815 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Hello, > > FYI, concerning "Python and education" I saw this on the 'OLPC > commmunity-news' mailing list : > > """ > 7. > Python: Mamading Ceesay, who has been a long-time advocate of teaching > Python to children, has offered to curate a collection of > generative Python > games. He intends to get Pygames and Childsplay to run on the > laptops, and > to help others produce tutorials using the games to show children > how and > why to program. > """ > > source: > http://mailman.laptop.org/pipermail/community-news/2006-December/ > 000038.html > http://childsplay.sourceforge.net/ > > Also this Blog talks about the OLPC laptop and what can run on it: > > http://www.olpcnews.com/ > > francois -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20070108/29ea850f/attachment.html From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org Wed Jan 10 07:42:43 2007 From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 22:42:43 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Learning (some more) programming In-Reply-To: <45950C27.3090508@kurtz-fernhout.com> References: <45912F69.70008@optonline.com> <4593A9CD.809@kurtz-fernhout.com> <4594121F.6050007@colorstudy.com> <200612282227.15474.john.zelle@wartburg.edu> <45950C27.3090508@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: Paul D. Fernhout wrote: > Now, to go on the offensive here, Doug Engelbert and others clearly showed > even in the late 1960s and early 1970s that a set up with a chord > keyboard in one hand and a mouse in the other is much father than a full > keyboard and a mouse when using a typical computer application. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_keyset I quite doubt this. The "clearly showed" may be true for editing (mark-up and movement tasks), but as I recall the Augment group was quite frustrated that a fast typist could beat even a well-practiced chord-pad and mouser. The Referenced article claims w/o citation that "Engelbart proved that trained typists, after just a few hours of training, could perform more efficiently using a chord keyboard than a conventional QWERTY keyboard." From what I recall, this was not true for text entry, but was for commands and short phrases. It was the movement back and forth between the keyboard and mouse that killed the skilled typist, not the letter entry speed. The article is suspect, because it claims the chord-pad had 31=2**5-1 distinct chords, but really, it was 30=2**5-2; 0-0-0-0-0 (all up) cannot be entered, and 1-1-1-1-1 was reserved for "cancel that chord, I typo'ed (much as DEL was an over punch to erase a mistaken byte). If you used the mouse buttons with the chord-pad (which I think you did), you had access to 126=2**7-2 or 254=2**8-2 chords if you kept one mouse button out of the chord, enough for all of ASCII (Note the NUL and DEL would still be out, but old paper-tape rules dictated special uses for those characters as well). -- Scott David Daniels Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org From jeff at taupro.com Wed Jan 10 12:08:40 2007 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 05:08:40 -0600 Subject: [Edu-sig] Reminder: Early Bird Registration for PyCon Ending Soon Message-ID: <45A4C938.1030105@taupro.com> Greetings. As the co-chair for the upcoming Python conference, being held in Dallas (Addison) Texas, I want to remind folk to register before early bird registration prices end. The event is the fifth international Python Conference, being held Feb 23-25, 2007 at the Marriott-Quorum in Addison, with early-bird registration ending **Jan 15**. The conference draws approximately 400-500 attendees from diverse backgrounds such as scientists from national and medical labs, college/K-12 educators, web engineers and the myriad of IT developers and programming hobbyists. Those new to the Python language are welcome, and we're offering a half-day "Python 101" tutorial on the day before the conference, Thursday Feb 22 to help you get up to speed and better enjoy the rest of the conference. Some of the really cool talks are: - Easy creation of interactive tutorials - Good-bye Hello World: Rethinking Teaching with Python - Visual Python in a Computational Physics Course - Python for Students of the Modern World - pyweek: making games in 7 days - Keynote: The Power of Dangerous Ideas: Python and One Laptop per Child - Keynote: Premise: eLearning does not Belong in Public Schools - Creating games with Pygame on the GP2X - Keynote: The Importance of Programming Literacy Being run by the Python community as a non-profit event, the conference strives to be inexpensive, with registration being only $260 (or $195 if you register prior to Jan 15th), with a further discount for students. On the day before the conference we are running a full day of classroom tutorials (extra charge per class) and then after the conference is a free four-days of sprints, which are informal gatherings of programmers to work together in coding on various projects. Sprints are excellent opportunities to do agile pair-programming side-by-side with experienced programmers and make new friends. Other activities are lightning talks, which are 5-minute presentations to show off a cool technology or spread the word about a project, open space talks, which are spontaneous gatherings around a topic and, new this year, a Python Lab where experienced and novice programmers will work together to solve challenging problems and then present their solutions. The conference is also running four keynote talks by leaders in the programming field, with a special focus on education this year: "The Power of Dangerous Ideas: Python and One Laptop per Child" by Ivan Krstic, senior member of the One Laptop per Child project "Premise: eLearning does not Belong in Public Schools" by Adele Goldberg, of SmallTalk fame "Python 3000" by Guido van Rossum, creator of Python "The Importance of Programming Literacy" by Robert M. "r0ml" Lefkowitz, a frequent speaker at O'Reilly conferences I believe you will find the conference educational and enjoyable. More information about the conference along with the full schedule of presentations with abstracts, is available online: http://us.pycon.org/ Thanks for any help you can give in spreading the word, Jeff Rush Co-Chair PyCon 2007 From kirby.urner at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 21:59:33 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:59:33 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Fun lesson plan re 6174 Message-ID: Databased on the Math Forum, some gloss on this article in Plus: http://plus.maths.org/issue38/features/nishiyama/ My gloss thereon: http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=1520113&tstart=0 No Python code included, but highly suggested. I'm tempted to paste some here. Plus here's a somewhat related blog entry, if you're not feeling busy right now: http://controlroom.blogspot.com/2007/01/aguirre-wrath-of-god-movie-review.html Always a good place to catch up if curious what I've been up to. Feel free to point me to yours any time. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Jan 12 17:32:23 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:32:23 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Reminder: Early Bird Registration for PyCon Ending Soon In-Reply-To: <45A4C938.1030105@taupro.com> References: <45A4C938.1030105@taupro.com> Message-ID: <45A7B817.2000706@optonline.com> Jeff Rush wrote: > > The conference is also running four keynote talks by leaders in the > programming field, with a special focus on education this year: > > "The Power of Dangerous Ideas: Python and One Laptop per Child" > by Ivan Krstic, senior member of the One Laptop per Child project > > "Premise: eLearning does not Belong in Public Schools" > by Adele Goldberg, of SmallTalk fame > > "Python 3000" > by Guido van Rossum, creator of Python > > "The Importance of Programming Literacy" > by Robert M. "r0ml" Lefkowitz, a frequent speaker at O'Reilly conferences > Was going to stay quiet, but what the hell..... 3 of 4 keynotes touching directly on the subject of education. But none of them by educators. Which I think is telling. I like to think of Python and its community as potentially part of the solution, and not part of the problem. but it is sometimes quite difficult. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Jan 12 18:18:24 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:18:24 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Reminder: Early Bird Registration for PyCon Ending Soon In-Reply-To: <45A7B817.2000706@optonline.com> References: <45A4C938.1030105@taupro.com> <45A7B817.2000706@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45A7C2E0.2000601@optonline.com> Arthur wrote: > Jeff Rush wrote: > >>The conference is also running four keynote talks by leaders in the >>programming field, with a special focus on education this year: Jeff's wording is good and careful here. But it doesn't attempt to address the question of why anyone - even other programmers - would be particularly interested in hearing *keynotes* from people talking outside of their field of expertise. At least one of them does seem to address the question of *programming* education from the point of view of a professional programmer. OK with that. That's one out of 3. Art From andre.roberge at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 18:27:01 2007 From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (Andre Roberge) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 13:27:01 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Reminder: Early Bird Registration for PyCon Ending Soon In-Reply-To: <45A7C2E0.2000601@optonline.com> References: <45A4C938.1030105@taupro.com> <45A7B817.2000706@optonline.com> <45A7C2E0.2000601@optonline.com> Message-ID: <7528bcdd0701120927mf6202c5v1d2c73ed1466812f@mail.gmail.com> Arthur, You made some good points in this post and the previous one. Playing the devil's advocate to your position: can you think of any potential _keynote_ speaker that would have the education expertise and python knowledge to fit the bill and be interesting to a general audience? I can not think of any myself - granted, I haven't been around for that long. Andr? On 1/12/07, Arthur wrote: > Arthur wrote: > > Jeff Rush wrote: > > > >>The conference is also running four keynote talks by leaders in the > >>programming field, with a special focus on education this year: > > Jeff's wording is good and careful here. > > But it doesn't attempt to address the question of why anyone - even > other programmers - would be particularly interested in hearing > *keynotes* from people talking outside of their field of expertise. > > At least one of them does seem to address the question of *programming* > education from the point of view of a professional programmer. OK with > that. > > That's one out of 3. > > Art > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Jan 12 21:00:25 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 20:00:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Edu-sig] Reminder: Early Bird Registration for PyCon Ending Soon In-Reply-To: <7528bcdd0701120927mf6202c5v1d2c73ed1466812f@mail.gmail.com> References: <45A4C938.1030105@taupro.com> <45A7B817.2000706@optonline.com> <45A7C2E0.2000601@optonline.com> <7528bcdd0701120927mf6202c5v1d2c73ed1466812f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: From: Andre Roberge > Arthur, > > You made some good points in this post and the previous one. Playing > the devil's advocate to your position: can you think of any potential > _keynote_ speaker that would have the education expertise and python > knowledge to fit the bill and be interesting to a general audience? > I can not think of any myself - granted, I haven't been around for > that long. I think we have been hearing inordinately from a community outside of the Python community in recent get-to-togethers - so I am not sure why python knowledge is considered to be a requirement. I do think that hearing from the chief architect of the OLPC, presumably with deep Python knowledge and *on the subject of the architecture of OLPC* - is great. The issue being the *implementation of an architecture* - which is what progammers do. And there is good reason to presume this implementation presented some interesting challenges - dealing with resources limitations, for one. And how those challenges are being addressed should, presumably, be of general interest to a programming audience. So what (truly) surprises me most from Jeff's announcement is the title of that architect's talk. It sounds like an cool-aid invitation, not the technical talk I would have expected. As to "eLearning" I am 100% for it, or 100% against it - depending on how we are defining it. I am 100% against keeping that defintion vague. And tired of the tolerance for this vagueness. The whole story *is* this vagueness - ii.e. at least from one person's persective. That would be me. First generate support, and *then* define what we are supporting. Damn ass backwards. What I presonally would find more interesting and to the point, is something from the Scheme's community leadership. They have experience to draw upon of the kind that I think would be quite relevant to those in the Python education community. But presumably they are not enough of the moment....for a programming audience. Which of course ties back to why programmers' take on education might not be a particular interest - to a general audience. That would be me, again. Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 21:14:52 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:14:52 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Reminder: Early Bird Registration for PyCon Ending Soon In-Reply-To: References: <45A4C938.1030105@taupro.com> <45A7B817.2000706@optonline.com> <45A7C2E0.2000601@optonline.com> <7528bcdd0701120927mf6202c5v1d2c73ed1466812f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I could easily do a keynote as a practicing Python educator implementing a definite and specific curriculum with live teenagers (via SA @ OGI & PSU *). But there might be logistical problems. Does Southwest serve Dallas? I've recently been @ New Mexico Tech discussing Python & Matlab in the physics department, a part of the same investigation taken up by Dr. Bob Fuller (friend of Bruce Sherwood). Relevant blog entry: http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2006/12/window-on-physics.html Kirby * SA = SaturdayAcademy.org; OGI = Oregon Graduate Institute; PSU = Portland State University. From wescpy at gmail.com Sat Jan 13 00:01:57 2007 From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:01:57 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] ANN: Python training course, Feb 7-9, San Francisco Message-ID: <78b3a9580701121501v52ab23b1gd9103ca2db8a0197@mail.gmail.com> FINAL REMINDER... we still have some seats left! What: (Intensive) Intro to Python When: February 7-9, 2007 Where: San Francisco (SFO/San Bruno), CA, USA Web: http://cyberwebconsulting.com (click "Python Training" link) Need to get up-to-speed with Python as quickly as possible? Come join us in beautiful Northern California for another one of our rigorous Python training events! This is an intense introduction to Python directed towards those who have some proficiency in another high-level language. This course will take place in San Bruno right near the San Francisco International Airport. LOCALS: easy freeway (101/280/380) with lots of parking plus public transit (BART and CalTrain) access via the San Bruno stations, easily accessible from all parts of the Bay Area VISITORS: the hotel offers free shuttle to/from the airport, free high-speed internet, free breakfast and evening reception daily The cost is only $1095 (reg $1295) per attendee. Discounts are available for multiple registrations as well as students and teachers of secondary and post-secondary educational institutions. Registration will be opening soon for the next Intro and Advanced courses both taking place back-to-back in May 2007. See website for more details. hope to meet you soon! -- wesley - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001 http://corepython.com wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com python training and technical consulting cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca http://cyberwebconsulting.com From krstic at solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu Sat Jan 13 01:59:05 2007 From: krstic at solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu (=?UTF-8?B?SXZhbiBLcnN0acSH?=) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 01:59:05 +0100 Subject: [Edu-sig] Reminder: Early Bird Registration for PyCon Ending Soon Message-ID: <45A82ED9.3040500@solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu> [Sorry for the missing References headers; I was not previously subscribed to edu-sig.] Arthur wrote: > I do think that hearing from the chief architect of the OLPC, > presumably with deep Python knowledge and *on the subject of the > architecture of OLPC* - is great. The issue being the *implementation > of an architecture* - which is what progammers do. And there is good > reason to presume this implementation presented some interesting > challenges - dealing with resources limitations, for one. And how > those challenges are being addressed should, presumably, be of > general interest to a programming audience. > > So what (truly) surprises me most from Jeff's announcement is the > title of that architect's talk. It sounds like an cool-aid > invitation, not the technical talk I would have expected. Worry not, you're definitely getting a technical talk. There's plenty of cool tech to discuss and show off, and I don't intend to skip over any of it. But what we're doing at OLPC has much broader implications than just being a cool use of Python, and I think it'd be foolish to not talk about those. So the snappy title is there because it sounds more interesting, I hope, than 'OLPC and frobnicating the phase multiplexer with Python,' and also because it doesn't constrain me to _only_ discussing the technical bits. For what it's worth, I have been doing bits of teaching in various capacities over the past 5 or so years, and have even managed to get some awards shoved at me for it. So while I'm by no means a formal educator and don't have decades of experience behind me, I do think I'm not just waving my hands when I talk about education. Which I will. -- Ivan Krsti? | GPG: 0x147C722D From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Jan 13 03:57:54 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 21:57:54 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Reminder: Early Bird Registration for PyCon Ending Soon In-Reply-To: <45A82ED9.3040500@solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu> References: <45A82ED9.3040500@solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <45A84AB2.60304@optonline.com> Ivan Krsti? wrote: > [Sorry for the missing References headers; I was not previously > subscribed to edu-sig.] > I am thankful of your response. Because it is a response, a communication. If we decide that the technology provides a new infrastructure for communication that can be harnessed, and then deem to communicate only with the like-minded, similarly experienced, and the onboard, i.e. "peers" - seems to me we are missing most of the point. An eResponse ;) seems to me a demonstration of the courage of your convictions. And it gives me hope that you will be precise in your use of words when discussing the educational ideas that interest you and that you are working for and toward. I had been fearing an "eLearning" feel-good session, and its a long trip from NY for that. If I disagree - and I well might I would at least like to have a precise idea of what I am disagreeing with, and why. How does OLPC avoid communicating that it is OK to *not* understand - in any meaningful sense - the tools one uses, to children who can't be expected to understand the working of these tools in any meaningful sense? ..is an attempt to express in a sentence where my concern lies. FWIW. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Jan 13 21:14:18 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 15:14:18 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Reminder: Early Bird Registration for PyCon Ending Soon In-Reply-To: <45A84AB2.60304@optonline.com> References: <45A82ED9.3040500@solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu> <45A84AB2.60304@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45A93D9A.2040304@optonline.com> Arthur wrote: > How does OLPC avoid communicating that it is OK to *not* understand - in > any meaningful sense - the tools one uses, to children who can't be > expected to understand the working of these tools in any meaningful sense? > > ..is an attempt to express in a sentence where my concern lies. I know that intention had been quite the opposite. Reading, again the "Smalltalk and Children" section of Alan Kay's The Early History of Smalltalk http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/contrib/EarlyHistoryST.html#45 one sees Kay and Adele Goldberg (PyCon 2007) in the demystifition trenches. By my reading it is a story of the most honest kind of effort, with some successes but more re-alignment of expectations and disappointment. But them comes the essential disconnect. """ The reason, therefore, that many of us want children to understand computing deeply and fluently is that like literature, matematics, science, music, and art, it carries special ways of thinking about situations that in contra=st with other knowledge and other wasy of thinking critically boost our ability to understand our world. """ Yes, but we don't always get what we want...ala the preceding 12 paragraphs. No doubt it is possible to build an interface a child can handle, so that they make things happen on the machine - within severe limits, things they intend to make happen. Which is something. But where is the the same intellectual honesty that this piece exhibits in assessing whether what is occurring cognitively with such an interface is qualitatively related, in a meaningful sense, to what the initial intentions of the undertaking had been - understanding computing "deeply and fluently". And what is the tragedy in backing off the effort to do it for real, and with feeling, and with some hope of success - to 16 or 17, rather than insisting on 11 or 12. In the end, that simple adjustment covers a large swatch of my own particular problem. The problem with the alternative - in my view - is the harm to the climate. Most importantly, we are letting the 16 and 17 year olds off the hook. We have redefined "deeply and fluently" in a very unfortunate way, and then have to live with it. Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sun Jan 14 00:17:37 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 15:17:37 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Drafting a keynote Message-ID: Although I haven't been invited to keynote in Dallas -- although I did volunteer (given my considerable experience) -- I thought a next best thing would be to lead by example, and encourage other subscribers to draft little keynotey things that would give us a sense of the vision and/or mission and/or state of our snake in our schools, so to speak. I would cite my gigs with Saturday Academy of Silicon Forest, both with the police (George Heuston of HPD), and through Portland State, both outreaches to youth somewhat at risk of corruption and/or losing their way amidst a bewildering wilderness of mirrors. At the police station (West Precinct) we harped on the downside of the Internet, a haven for perps, pervs and predators, especially adult, plus a constant source of temptations, e.g. of pirated goods, which might only serve to get you in trouble with the authorities. But George was uncomfortable with this sustained negative note, all downsides and terrors, when boyz and girlz just wanna have fun with all the new toyz, so if there is *any* safe way to enjoy this bonanza, maybe the police could role model it? They brought in some hired guns: me, of 4D Solutions, and Jerritt Collord, then of linuxfund.org, and long time veteran of North Portland's open source scene (I'm more the old hippie, mostly cut my teeth on closed source offerings in Southeast, am now just getting my second wind, thanks in part to Free Geek and Ron Braithwaite). Jerritt's take was decidely different from the more negatory stuff. He really knew his engineering, and if packets weren't encrypted, and hogged the shared public air, well then he, as a member of said public, wasn't being all that sneaky or outside of his rights if he just opened a few. Sysadmins do the same, and know if wired or wireless dorms use more Bittorrent than Jabber, and which servers enjoy the most traffic. The packets themselves tend to tell you that, by design, as a part of the monitoring infrastructure, which is needed to pinpoint bottlenecks, as well as to cut down on hogging, abuse, taking unfair advantage of resources we share. So there we were, the first day of class, immediately into sniffing packets, thinking about packets, where they come from, where they go, what they do. Enter 'Warriors of the Net', a great cartoon intro, and which I highly recommend to school teachers in Texas, if at all interested in what we in Oregon are into. [pause to show excerpt, with big speaker surround sound, however they do it in Texas]. Anyway, the kids found this refreshing: real hackers hacking, not just lecturing on criminal pathologies. George sat in on a few classes and I think he could see where we weren't just training up a new generation of law breakers. We were showing off hacker culture as a highly ethical, and interested in sharing a growing stockpile of wealth that we ourselves create. We're not thieves. We *own* our code *and* choose to share it with peers. That's the message to youngsters in any case. We want 'em to grow up proud of their heritage. You can grow up to become a freedom loving hacker *and* be tough on crime, if that's what you'd like. Be like George for example, a computer forensics expert in charge of many a crime scene investigation, lots of FBI background. There's no contradiction here. Jerritt and I forked off in different directions after that class. He had a girlfriend in Montana, no obvious ties to Portland. Last we met, he was thinking about Japan. As a Portland native, I stuck with Saturday Academy and plodded on in a more academic vein, working in purer and purer forms of Python, with ever more math in the mix, sometimes to the exclusion of all else. Group theory, number theory, synergetics... burning the midnight oil. I was losing my Jerrittish side, given he wasn't around to reinforce it so directly. I missed the power of our HPD course, even though my more purist stuff got me gigs at Europython in Gothenburg, at the London Knowledge Lab, and as our BDFL's sidekick and Minister of Education at that Shuttleworth summit last April (I'm giving a talk on that meeting, check your program). [ pause to show excerpt of London Knowledge Lab talk -- on second thought, I don't think it's high rez enough. For printed copy, see these relevant links: http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2005/06/europython-2005.html http://www.bfi.org/pythonicmathematics ] Slowly, I've been building up that other side of my body, to where I can talk about Internet protocols, the stack, the heap, with some confidance and gusto. Dr. Sonnenfeld of New Mexico Tech was inspiring, reminding me of the relevance of the homespun, the down and dirty (he studies lightning), the importance of coming down from those mountain peaks on occasion. Dr. Bob Fuller, veteran of the Calculus Reform movement (largely successful) was likewise an inspiration, reminding me not to get lost in the clouds, over lattes in Oregon. This restored sense of balance gives my students more insights into the likes of Twisted, into the nuts and bolts of the Internet itself. Plone... Zope. I'm not being too prejudicial in my teaching them Python, not even in terms of their becoming computer scientists. That's for them to decide. I'm just here to show 'em some ropes, open some doors. wxPython, ODBC to MySQL, IronPython, Mailman... these all could be a "next step" for you, or maybe you're ready to teach them? We encourage peers teaching peers in our models, already the most tried and trusted vector for spreading a global geek culture. My "next step" has been in direction of VPython and its promise of easy OpenGL. Like Arthur on Edu-Sig, I see that Ruby is strong in this area, and Ruby toons (animated cartoons by or about Ruby) may well eclipse our snake's chances for more public exposure, if we don't act in concert. I'm thinking of rebranding my own Hypertoons [tm] to 'Anime on Rails' and invading the Japanese market, a pre-emptive strike. [pause for audience laughter ] Happily though, I think peaceful co-existence with RubyToons is the most likely outcome, just like we in Python Nation already enjoy good relations with our closest long time neighbor, the Republic of Perl. Now, I know you're all wondering about YouTube and Google, and how this all fits with Intel's Viiv. I'd say, on behalf of the Portland Knowledge Lab, that yes, the goal is open source, lots and lots of it, so you can download and splice stuff together with wild abandon, not feeling encumbered by the prospect of lawsuits left and right, because of the blanketly permissive copyrights and licenses we'll be providing as shielding. In this way, our ability to cut and paste video, as easily as we cut and paste source code, will grow by leaps and bounds, to the great advantage of a knowledge based economy such as our own, wherein screencasting, including mathcasting, is an essential ingredient in building up the alphanumeracy skills of our future workforce. However, YouTube and Google Video aren't currently high rez enough to make looking at source code anything but painful. So the challenge is to develop a multi-tiered system of video distribution, and yes, the higher the bandwidth the more likely it'll end up costing you something, if not in terms of actual dollars, then in terms of disk space or rebranding rights. Great works of art (like Valve's Half Life, like Cyan's Uru) still don't come cheaply, and we're happy to pay for it, by and large, including sometimes through Foundation support of the artists. How will Python fit in to our open source video economy? At least one thing is clear: it'll be a lot easier to teach effectively, as will be the other languages. The rest is up to the developers and/or curriculum writers (not always different people). If you like our snake, and want to build in some bindings to your product, open source or prioprietary, we hope you'll seriously consider doing so and follow through. Python, like any language, benefits from brand loyalty. Guido has never insulted our intelligence with a second rate offering. Or goal should be to continue his most excellent track record. Thank you and good afternoon. Kirby From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sun Jan 14 22:13:29 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:13:29 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Reminder: Early Bird Registration for PyCon Ending Soon In-Reply-To: References: <45A4C938.1030105@taupro.com> <45A7B817.2000706@optonline.com> <45A7C2E0.2000601@optonline.com> <7528bcdd0701120927mf6202c5v1d2c73ed1466812f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/07, kirby urner wrote: > I could easily do a keynote as a practicing Python educator > implementing a definite and specific curriculum with live > teenagers (via SA @ OGI & PSU *). But there might > be logistical problems. Does Southwest serve Dallas? More analysis on tap here: http://mail.geneseo.edu/pipermail/math-thinking-l/2007-January/001087.html plus a link to a more polished draft of my keynote, posted to comp.lang.python. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Jan 14 23:20:32 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 17:20:32 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] VCBuild files In-Reply-To: <4596B3BE.8040508@ncsu.edu> References: <45954CE5.7020804@ncsu.edu> <1167446734.3110.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4596044D.1060403@ncsu.edu> <1167492044.3110.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45968E10.20304@optonline.com> <1167501383.3110.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4596B3BE.8040508@ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <45AAACB0.4020907@optonline.com> Bruce, I have committed a new directory to vpython-core2 called VCBuild It contains concise instructions (VCBuild.txt), a cvisual solutions (cvisual.sln) file and project (.vcproj) files for booth_python, boost_thread, and sigc. It should allow you to do a build on Visual Sutdio 2005 C++ (either the free Express version or full-blown) - totally avoiding bjam. The common wisdom is that Python25 extensions for Windows should be built with VC++2003, but I haven't seen a problem yet, and I am hoping that since we are getting at Python via Boost we might be insulated from these kinds of issues. but am not sure, and could just as well add files for a VC2003 build for those who have access to it (there is no free version available now, ASAIK) I am hoping this will allow us to stay on the same page on Windows. And I am also trying to take the advice from an edu-sig participant (I think it was Scott David Daniels) that a sane build mechanism is important for attracting developers to a project, and I myself found the mingw/bjam combo a struggle. It works OK when you stick strictly to the script of INSTALL.txt, but for those of us who need to be a little closer to the whys and wherefores and what ifs, it was a struggle to get one's arms around coming into cold - particularly bjam. I have done some clean-up on the source, nothing too substantive, but I wanted to get to a VC++ build that would not be giving tons of warning messages. I have not committed those changes, pending your OK, so expect tons of warning messages. I am copying this to the edu-sig list, hoping someone out there might bite at it, and jump-in some. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Mon Jan 15 21:56:39 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel at optonline.net) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 20:56:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Edu-sig] Chomsky on Skinner Message-ID: Haven't been hardcore irrelevent for a few posts. Noam Chomsky (not in my pantheon) on B. F.Skinner (not in my pantheon) defending Athur Koestler (in my pantheon). Koestler's thoughts on Behaviorism expressed, I believe, in The Ghost in the Machine.... "he" is Skinner, the words are Chomsky's. """" Elsewhere, he accuses his critics of "emotional instability," citing comments of Arthur Koestler and Peter Gay to the effect that behaviorism is "a monumental triviality" marked by "innate na?vet?" and "intellectual bankruptcy" (p. 165). Skinner does not attempt to meet this criticism by presenting some relevant results that are not a monumental triviality. He is unable to perceive that objection to his "scientific picture of man" derives not from "extinction" of certain behavior or opposition to science, but from an ability to distinguish science from triviality and obvious error. """ Just liked the phrasing some. Full article... http://www.chomsky.info/articles/19711230.htm Art -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20070115/0d423766/attachment.htm From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Jan 17 15:15:26 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 09:15:26 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment Message-ID: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> Hate being the grunch. I hope the OLPC accomplishes everything it sets out to and more. What I suspect is that - having learnt something about complexity and dynamic systems from computers - that the most profound effects of the initiative will be unintended ones. Let's hope they are mostly good. Particularly given this, I don't understand the embedded need, as part of the process, to the compromise on some basic ideas - normally called science. We - on edu-sig - were trying to form some consensus on the need for empiricism around these issues. And in his own way, by my reading of events, my erstwhile friend Kirby was trying to suggest something along these lines during his participation at the Shuttleworth summit. Or - maybe more what he was suggesting - is that until there is empricial evidence that leads us in a certain and clear direction, best encourage the diversity of ideas. OLPC seem to represent very much a counter vision. Seems to me the OLPC has counter ideas on both empiricism *and* the diversity of ideas. Here is Nicholas Negroponte's reaction to the idea of bringing empricism to the party. http://www.olpcnews.com/implementation/plan/implementation_miracle.html So there will not be consensus, apparently, Art From bert at freudenbergs.de Wed Jan 17 16:17:55 2007 From: bert at freudenbergs.de (Bert Freudenberg) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:17:55 +0100 (MET) Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment In-Reply-To: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> Message-ID: <6716471B-DC0D-4196-B5AB-555E447484BC@freudenbergs.de> Hi Art, if you are interested in a serious discussion with OLPC, rather than just about OLPC, their open forum might be a better place than Python edu-sig. See http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo You might even get a response ;-) - Bert - Am Jan 17, 2007 um 15:15 schrieb Arthur: > > Hate being the grunch. I hope the OLPC accomplishes everything it > sets > out to and more. > > What I suspect is that - having learnt something about complexity and > dynamic systems from computers - that the most profound effects of the > initiative will be unintended ones. Let's hope they are mostly good. > > Particularly given this, I don't understand the embedded need, as part > of the process, to the compromise on some basic ideas - normally > called > science. > > We - on edu-sig - were trying to form some consensus on the need for > empiricism around these issues. > > And in his own way, by my reading of events, my erstwhile friend Kirby > was trying to suggest something along these lines during his > participation at the Shuttleworth summit. Or - maybe more what he was > suggesting - is that until there is empricial evidence that leads > us in > a certain and clear direction, best encourage the diversity of ideas. > > OLPC seem to represent very much a counter vision. > > Seems to me the OLPC has counter ideas on both empiricism *and* the > diversity of ideas. > > Here is Nicholas Negroponte's reaction to the idea of bringing > empricism > to the party. > > http://www.olpcnews.com/implementation/plan/ > implementation_miracle.html > > So there will not be consensus, apparently, > > > > Art > > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Jan 17 21:46:23 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel at optonline.net) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 20:46:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment In-Reply-To: <6716471B-DC0D-4196-B5AB-555E447484BC@freudenbergs.de> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> <6716471B-DC0D-4196-B5AB-555E447484BC@freudenbergs.de> Message-ID: Bert Freudenberg wrote:> Hi Art,> > if you are interested in a serious discussion with OLPC, rather than? > just about OLPC, their open forum might be a better place than Python? > edu-sig.> > See http://mailman.laptop.org/mailman/listinfo> > You might even get a response ;-)Heh, I just got one ;)I of course assume that the lack of response that I get hereis based on the fact that what I am saying is so well stated as to be incontrovertible.? And that thereare some X number of people simply nodding their headsin agreement. What's left to say ;)The possibility that I am perceived to be wandering so far from the topics this list in intended to discuss, or be perceived as so far off the bus - as a general matter - as to be hopeless to address has, of course, never occurred to me. Though conceivably if the keynotes of PyCon 2007, and EuroPython 2006,were otherwise, it might have. If it were otherwise, I might, in fact, at this stage of the game be limiting my posts here to the Grand Vpython Salvage Plan -? GTK, all the way - and trying to get some reaction to it and the concrete ideas and technical advice I might need to achieve it.But I am entitled to my say, my interest is more in the Python community than in OLPC, and I only hoping to suggest that thePython community's pride in its participation in that initiativeshould find its limits. We will give away the number of keynotes that the contract calledfor.? But working in the mailroom, I don't have the facts.Just trying to get the count ;)Art -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20070117/2f98756f/attachment.htm From kirby.urner at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 22:00:27 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 13:00:27 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment In-Reply-To: References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> Message-ID: > Grunch with a u is from Gander of Geese, saw some other funny ones, Oh drat sorry, meant Gaggle of Geese not Gander. This guy Haim (aka Zorro) on Math Forum always heckles me when I get that wrong. Here's an official government web page to help us out in the future: http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/about/faqs/animals/names.htm Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Wed Jan 17 22:06:19 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel at optonline.net) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 21:06:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment Message-ID: ----- Original Message -----From: kirby urner> I'll leave it to Arthur to nail down his affiliation.>I am not now, nor have I ever been.Art -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20070117/7616d0b5/attachment.html From krstic at solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu Wed Jan 17 22:54:18 2007 From: krstic at solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu (=?UTF-8?B?SXZhbiBLcnN0acSH?=) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:54:18 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment In-Reply-To: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45AE9B0A.5090004@solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu> Arthur wrote: > Particularly given this, I don't understand the embedded need, as part > of the process, to the compromise on some basic ideas - normally called > science. [...] Or - maybe more what he was > suggesting - is that until there is empricial evidence that leads us in > a certain and clear direction, best encourage the diversity of ideas. > OLPC seem to represent very much a counter vision. > Seems to me the OLPC has counter ideas on both empiricism *and* the > diversity of ideas. I don't think I can actually figure out what you're saying here. I am happy to have a discussion, but that requires understanding what's being discussed; please consider rephrasing your concerns in very simple, non-philosophical terms. -- Ivan Krsti? | GPG: 0x147C722D From kirby.urner at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 23:01:50 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:01:50 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment In-Reply-To: References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> Message-ID: On 1/17/07, ajsiegel at optonline.net wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: kirby urner > > > I'll leave it to Arthur to nail down his affiliation. > > > > I am not now, nor have I ever been. > > Art Hah, funny. Honk honk! <--- goose noise "AFLAK!" Kirby From pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com Thu Jan 18 01:33:13 2007 From: pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com (Paul D. Fernhout) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 19:33:13 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment ("Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools") In-Reply-To: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45AEC049.9000807@kurtz-fernhout.com> Art- It is funny to see the "learning just in case" educators crying out for more testing "just in case". Like the Albany Free School, or John Holt, or "The Hole in the Wall" project or various other success stories relating to "learning on demand" which the OLPC project supports did not exist. No amount of testing will ever be enough for those who use testing as a way to hold people back and keep them in a lower class. :-( From: http://www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt "The second lesson I teach is your class position. I teach that you must stay in class where you belong. I don't know who decides that my kids belong there but that's not my business. The children are numbered so that if any get away they can be returned to the right class. Over the years the variety of ways children are numbered has increased dramatically, until it is hard to see the human being plainly under the burden of numbers he carries. Numbering children is a big and very profitable business, though what the strategy is designed to accomplish is elusive. I don't even know why parents would allow it to be done to their kid without a fight. In any case, again, that's not my business. My job is to make them like it, being locked in together with children who bear numbers like their own. Or at the least endure it like good sports. If I do my job well, the kids can't even imagine themselves somewhere else because I've shown how to envy and fear the better classes and how to have contempt for the dumb classes. Under this efficient discipline the class mostly polices itself into good marching order. That's the real lesson of any rigged competition like school. You come to know your place." I don't in general disagree with the notion that empiricism and testing as part of either engineering or science can be useful. But there are still aspects of "garbage in / garbage out" when doing testing in relation to the testers' assumptions, methods, and biases. And testing can also be just a big waste of time if you test for the wrong things -- for example, what do higher test scores really prove about whether people will be happier or whether some part of society will be better off (economically or spiritually)? Consider, how do you test for character or imagination or virtue? And how do you test for people who won't put up with BS of taking too many tests or being asked to jump through too many hoops? :-) Historically, if you measure programmers on, say, lines of code, you may get a lot of lines of code but poorly running and hard to maintain programs. Same too for testing kids for grades -- maybe you get high graders but little else. Consider the goal of Computer Programming For Everybody -- to make people more comfortable and in control of their increasingly computerized environment -- it's hard to put a number on someone's sense the importance of that or when it has been reached. There is some fancy sounding statistical term for numbers not being connected with the reality you are interested in but I forget it off-hand. :-) On the larger issues, see this essay I recently wrote which supports Negroponte's position indirectly: "Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools" http://patapata.sourceforge.net/WhyEducationalTechnologyHasFailedSchools.html That essay could be considered supporting Alan Kay's suggestion that "the computer revolution hasn't happened yet". http://squeakland.org/school/HTML/essays/face_to_face.html Essentially I explore whether computer technology which enables "learning on demand" has made "learning just in case" compulsory education obsolete. --Paul Fernhout Arthur wrote: > Hate being the grunch. I hope the OLPC accomplishes everything it sets > out to and more. > > What I suspect is that - having learnt something about complexity and > dynamic systems from computers - that the most profound effects of the > initiative will be unintended ones. Let's hope they are mostly good. > > Particularly given this, I don't understand the embedded need, as part > of the process, to the compromise on some basic ideas - normally called > science. > > We - on edu-sig - were trying to form some consensus on the need for > empiricism around these issues. > > And in his own way, by my reading of events, my erstwhile friend Kirby > was trying to suggest something along these lines during his > participation at the Shuttleworth summit. Or - maybe more what he was > suggesting - is that until there is empricial evidence that leads us in > a certain and clear direction, best encourage the diversity of ideas. > > OLPC seem to represent very much a counter vision. > > Seems to me the OLPC has counter ideas on both empiricism *and* the > diversity of ideas. > > Here is Nicholas Negroponte's reaction to the idea of bringing empricism > to the party. > > http://www.olpcnews.com/implementation/plan/implementation_miracle.html > > So there will not be consensus, apparently, > > > > Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 21:54:10 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:54:10 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment In-Reply-To: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> Message-ID: On 1/17/07, Arthur wrote: > > Hate being the grunch. I hope the OLPC accomplishes everything it sets > out to and more. Urner butting in with irrelevant asides: Arthur may mean grinch if that means someone scroogey in a Dr. Seuss story about a selfish killjoy (happy ending though). Grunch with a u is from Gander of Geese, saw some other funny ones, but "of Giants", a double pun by Bucky on (a) corporations and (b) GRoss UNiversal Cash Heist, his scheme to steal all the money. I'll leave it to Arthur to nail down his affiliation. Kirby PS: I think I just figured out what OLPC means. Interesting terminology you guys use. From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Jan 18 02:17:23 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 20:17:23 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment ("Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools") In-Reply-To: <45AEC049.9000807@kurtz-fernhout.com> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> <45AEC049.9000807@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: <45AECAA3.6000808@optonline.com> Yes, Paul: School sucks. Any kid worth his salt knows that And yes Paul: The possibilities for meaningful testing are indeed limited. Are we influencing someone to be more or less creative, more or less independent, etc. Implicit in the design of any test is our values -i.e. for what are we testing. So that "empiricism" indeed is just another opportunity to ask tough questions. But at least its a structure in which to do so. But it leaves me nothing really much to argue with you about. I think we both understand the rules, just have somewhat different ideas about where to look for the exceptions to the rules. What I hear when I look over the Squeak shoulders is that of course we are not claiming that any of this is a substitute for an involved, caring, creative teacher working in a caring, creative environment. But given such a teacher in such an environment do you really suppose that Squeak, or the OLPC, or Python, or PyGeo, or PataPata is actually of much importance? I don't. My interest in computers and education is almost 180 degrees away. I am not convinced that they have any fundamental importance in the deliver of instruction. They are quite a worthy *subject* of instruction, however. I naively came to edu-sig thinking that was what everyone thought, and what we were to be about here. Art From pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com Thu Jan 18 05:37:09 2007 From: pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com (Paul D. Fernhout) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 23:37:09 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment (vs. Apprenticeship) In-Reply-To: <45AECAA3.6000808@optonline.com> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> <45AEC049.9000807@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45AECAA3.6000808@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45AEF975.7090506@kurtz-fernhout.com> Art- I think one issue is here is the difference between "apprenticeship" and "teaching". Perhaps there is a middle position of "mentoring" between those too, as "apprenticeship" can often be exploitive, plus take many years. One of the best ways to learn a skill (like programming) might be to be apprenticed to someone who does it to some useful end. For example, I learned much about computers in high school working (for pay, outside of school hours) for a teacher who had an educational computer company. He didn't teach me much directly, but he provide me documents and hardware and reasonable challenges and experiences and time which helped me grow as a software developer. Still, two other high school teachers provided me access to computers as well to a lesser extent, and I was also aided by my father's support of my earlier IC electronic hobby and subsequent computer activities, including buying a KIM-1, some books at a computer fair, and then a Commodore PET with printer and disk drive. It's hard to remember how difficult *access* was to computers in the USA way back when in the 1970s. But obviously that difficulty still exists in much of the world for many people. I am happy to agree that human apprenticeship (or even mentoring) is more powerful than a sink-or-swim approach of just connecting a kid with some technology or a "hole in the wall": http://www.hole-in-the-wall.com/ -- as far as learning effective skills as part of a larger liberal education including values and strategies. When I read of the experiences of many other programmers who grew up around, say, Palo Alto (Xerox) or Yorktown Heights (IBM), I can see the tremendous advantages they had being part of such cultures and being able to learn from others. Consider, for example, Bill Gates, who learned to write better code by reading the operating system code listings thrown in the dumpster at a computer center: http://www.dynamicobjects.com/d2r/archives/002646.html Not that he would extend that privilege to others, of course. Contrast that to me at the one time I went to a local computer users group meeting as a kid and the person with a print out of the FORTRAN source code for "Adventure" would not let me look at it. So, these people who were close to such industrial or adult activities had big advantages. When people are put in a role of being a "teacher", and they bring a personal enthusiasm for their subject, that enthusiasm can carry over into aspects of apprenticeship despite operating in a conventional classroom. Kirby U. here sounds like he does that. But, there is no realistic way a person can really have 30 apprentices, let alone 150 as is typical in high school (one teacher with five classes of thirty kids each). One or two apprentices is quite doable, even up to five, maybe. Much more than that, and at best you have a pipeline (like the one room schoolhouse) where the older apprentices teach the younger, as a sort of learning community. But the big difference is that with apprenticeship there is generally some easily measurable economic goal (or at least, someone one, the "master") who is assumed to be in a good position to judge the apprentices output in terms of usefulness or craft. This is not always the case, since obviously apprenticeships can go bad, and some acclaimed masters are that way for bad reasons. But in general, apprenticeship is how most people have learned most complex skills for most of history -- well, that coupled with trial-and-error coupled with reading. Learning skills mainly from books or lectures is likely a very recent thing. Listening to people stand and talk has a place in human society -- but it often is more by way of story telling and communicating history and values through entertaining story. So perhaps if one wants a coherent alternative to a constructivist vision of OLPC and Kay and Papert and so on -- perhaps pushing "apprenticeship" (like to learn Python) is a positive alternative? However, schools typically do not have apprenticeships, in part because of child labor laws intended to protect children but which sometimes may harm them. Gatto talks about this from his own experience hooking kids up with apprenticeships only by breaking the rules: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/4e.htm http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/5j.htm But he values other types of experience as well: http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/JohnTaylorGatto --Paul Fernhout Arthur wrote: > What I hear when I look over the Squeak shoulders is that of course we > are not claiming that any of this is a substitute for an involved, > caring, creative teacher working in a caring, creative environment. But > given such a teacher in such an environment do you really suppose that > Squeak, or the OLPC, or Python, or PyGeo, or PataPata is actually of > much importance? > > I don't. > > My interest in computers and education is almost 180 degrees away. > > I am not convinced that they have any fundamental importance in the > deliver of instruction. > > They are quite a worthy *subject* of instruction, however. > > I naively came to edu-sig thinking that was what everyone thought, and > what we were to be about here. From pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com Thu Jan 18 06:45:44 2007 From: pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com (Paul D. Fernhout) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 00:45:44 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment ("Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools") In-Reply-To: <45AECAA3.6000808@optonline.com> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> <45AEC049.9000807@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45AECAA3.6000808@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45AF0988.6020405@kurtz-fernhout.com> Art- More on the points you raised. Personally, if there is one thing I've learned from participating here on edusig and reading people's feedback (direct and between-the-lines) is that it is the compulsory aspect of pedagogy which I feel is the big problem, as that is what prevents the other possibilities from sorting themselves out as needed. Coherent arguments can be made for a range of educational experiences (both for all kids to sample and for specific kids to use in depth depending on their own strengths and weaknesses). Mentoring, tutoring, apprenticeship, educational simulations or other computer-mediated learning experiences, intensive workshops, open-ended constructivist tools, and even well crafted lectures or documents (pedagogically, in terms of a coherent progression of ideas) all have a role to play in a good education, or in learning a specific set of skills, like Python programming. What is the python reference manual after all, but a sort of lecture? :-) But, any pleasant or educational activity, when forced upon you, with no intrinsic interest on your part and no immediate utilitarian value, takes on a different dimension. Granted, a really good teacher who is very enthusiastic can sometimes produce excitement in the student or convey a sense of future worth -- but that is a stretch, and teachers then start having to become entertainers and salespeople instead of masters-of-craft or masters-of-presentation. The computer (including OLPC) makes a lot of things more possible in education of the masses by reducing the costs of search, distribution, communication, and availability of educational resources. Beyond that, it makes possible "learning on demand". That was the promise even when I was in high school in the 1970s. I could see it even then -- how much cheaper it would be to have a Commodore PET on everyone's desk and distribute cheaply copied cassette tapes instead of expensive text books, and then how you could also have CAI systems which let you progress at your own pace through material. But what I did not fully understand then was how the entire school system was essentially created to prevent people from progressing at their own pace (or leaving the class they were assigned) -- so no matter how cheap you made distributing a diversity of text books or related educational materials, schools would not want any but the standardized ones to be used at the standardized times. The point of conventional schooling was then ansd still is to produce a standard graded product, not amplify differences. As I point out in my previously linked essay "Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools" http://patapata.sourceforge.net/WhyEducationalTechnologyHasFailedSchools.html computers linked to the internet have revolutionized just about every area of life today related to information access and education -- except, ironically, schooling. I think there is a reason. Schools are *actively* in the way of everything the better side of the world wide web promises -- diversity, expression, disintermediation, innovation, etc. (Of course I see the online world as also a race between the dark side of surveillance & control versus expression & diversity, to see which will triumph). With cheap networked computers, a good lecture can reach a million minds. An educational simulation can reach a million mice. A constructivist toolkit can be in a million hands. All essentially for no additional cost. But more than that, a million kids (or adults) can make something interesting for just one or two other people, which adds up to a lot of experience making content, plus a lot of diverse content. And a million people can user VOIP to help with one-on-one learning over a meshwork. And the cost of admission to all that is about $100 per person globally. Granted the true cost is much higher when you consider infrastructure aspects, but even at, say, $1000 it is cheap compared to twelve years at $12K a year (= $144K ignoring interest) as is typical in the USA (as Gatto writes, you can buy a house for that -- and most kids would be better off getting a free house at age 18 than an increasingly worthless high school diploma). But you don't need all that technology -- you are right if it is your implication that a few concerned adults or older kids can provide much of that for any child, and have for much of human existence. It takes both a family and a village to raise a human being. Unfortunately, in the USA at least, much of that has been replaced with the compulsory classroom as an ersatz family and the TV as an ersatz village. Unfortunately, the compulsory and timetable aspects of what we have now (designed for turning rambunctious children into factory workers for 19th century style factories) prevent much real learning for happening in the school environment. And as Gatto points out, TV soaks up the rest of time, along with two-income or broken family issues which also consume a lot of time. http://www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt Clearly this issue is finally becoming mainstream though, both as shown both because I am finally aware of it :-) and also when you consider things like this recent national report: "To fix US schools, [bipartisan] panel says, start over" http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1215/p01s01-ussc.html Of course, they still look at the problem from an "economic competetiveness" aspect, ignoring the individual and his or her own personal experiences or quality of life. But even narrowly within the sphere of economic competitiveness, compulsory schooling is failing -- precisely because it continues to succeed at the aims for which is was institutes - it's just that the economy no longer needs many people to do repetitive factory jobs involving sitting in one place, which is the message in the medium of schooling. --Paul Fernhout Arthur wrote: > What I hear when I look over the Squeak shoulders is that of course we > are not claiming that any of this is a substitute for an involved, > caring, creative teacher working in a caring, creative environment. But > given such a teacher in such an environment do you really suppose that > Squeak, or the OLPC, or Python, or PyGeo, or PataPata is actually of > much importance? > > I don't. From pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com Thu Jan 18 06:47:55 2007 From: pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com (Paul D. Fernhout) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 00:47:55 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment ("Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools") In-Reply-To: <45AECAA3.6000808@optonline.com> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> <45AEC049.9000807@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45AECAA3.6000808@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45AF0A0B.8050803@kurtz-fernhout.com> Art- Even more on this point. I think this deeper issue relating to the nature of compulsory schooling shows why, after fiddling with teaching programming for a little while, schools don't do it much anymore. Programming is too disruptive a technology and places too many difficult demands on schools for it to fit in well into any compulsory schooling curriculum. And I mean disruptive in more sense than kids cracking into school networks or running illicit programs. Especially with today's toolkits and today's computer power, even just a year of serious programming education (like with Python and its libraries) has to undermine any individual's belief in the value of Microsoft's monopoly on OS and development tools, or the worth of RIAA's business model, or the value of copyright extensions and other scarcity creating regulations in a world of digital abundance, and so on. From a school's point of view, it is best to replace that all with Microsoft Certification training (seen a recently promoted on a sign outside a K-12 school) and an early message to young children that "sharing is wrong". See, for example: http://www.wired.com/news/digiwood/0,1412,64543,00.html From there: """ "We're trying to educate children at a very young age about the importance of protecting copyrighted works," said Diane Smiroldo, vice president of public affairs for the BSA. "It's important to start talking to them at a very young age about creative works online and what you can and can't share with your friends." ... "Kids may not have such fully formed ideas about how the world works," Bucholz said. "For older students, that stuff doesn't wash." He said once students develop critical thinking skills, read the news and learn about content owners suing their customers, for instance, it decreases the industry's ability to "take the moral high ground." """ [Note: I'm not suggesting people of any age do illegal things; I am just pointing out the current recently passed laws extending the scope and duration of copyright (and criminalizing copyright infringement) are ultimately undemocratic and antisocial as they serve only a narrow group of people (mainly large commercial content brokers) http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2002-10-07-oplede_x.htm and otherwise make information exchange much harder by promoting artificial scarcity out of a profit motive, and breaking the bargain whereby creative works (narrowly defined) enter the public domain after a reasonable time. This extension is becoming more and more problematical to justify considering that, for creative works, psychological studies tell us: "Creativity and intrinsic interest diminish if [a] task is done for gain", see: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/motivation.html For more on this general topic, see: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html which includes an explanation of how current draconian US copyright policies (including infringers now face more potential jail time for copying a few songs than for murder) are similar to those used in old Soviet Russia to suppress dissent. Ironically, Russia is now hostign one of the biggest thorsn in the side of RIAA, a company that sells cheap audio files worldwide and claims to do so legally under Russian law. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6199237.stm http://www.neowin.net/index.php?act=view&id=36590 ] But, the same is true of writing and critical thinking and art and music and history and industrial arts and democracy. All that stuff really has no place in a 19th century schooling model intended to produce mainly compliant workers, unquestioning consumers, and obedient soldiers. Learn to write business letters? Perhaps. A moving drama? No time. This is not to say there are not sometimes courses with those names (history, writing, democracy, etc.), or that even sometimes some of the true nature of those fields might sneak in to such classes. :-) But when teachers try to break out and really teach outside the box, consider what happened to Jaime Escalante: "Stand and Deliver Revisited -- The untold story behind the famous rise -- and shameful fall -- of Jaime Escalante, America's master math teacher. http://www.reason.com/news/show/28479.html "Escalante's open admission policy, a major reason for his success, also paved the way for his departure. Calculus grew so popular at Garfield that classes grew beyond the 35-student limit set by the union contract. Some had more than 50 students. Escalante would have preferred to keep the classes below the limit had he been able to do so without either denying calculus to willing students or using teachers who were not up to his high standards. Neither was possible, and the teachers union complained about Garfield's class sizes. Rather than compromise, Escalante moved on. ... This leaves would-be school reformers with a set of uncomfortable questions. Why couldn't Escalante run his classes in peace? Why were administrators allowed to get in his way? Why was the union imposing its "help" on someone who hadn't requested it? Could Escalante's program have been saved if, as Gradillas now muses, Garfield had become a charter school? What is wrong with a system that values working well with others more highly than effectiveness? Lyndon Johnson said it takes a master carpenter to build a barn, but any jackass can kick one down. In retrospect, it's fortunate that Escalante's program survived as long as it did. Had Garfield's counselors refused to let a handful of basic math students take algebra back in 1974, or had the janitor who objected to Escalante's early-bird ways been more influential, America's greatest math teacher might just now be retiring from Unisys. Gradillas has an explanation for the decline of A.P. calculus at Garfield: Escalante and Villavicencio were not allowed to run the program they had created on their own terms. In his phrase, the teachers no longer "owned" their program. He's speaking metaphorically, but there's something to be said for taking him literally." Rare exceptions excluded, I would suggest, following Gatto, http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/18t.htm that there is simply no room in conventional schools for real programming. If you want to teach real programming, or real math, or real writing, or anything else of real significance, you need to change the compulsory schools which were designed intentionally to prevent individual differentiation or true excellence. But the compulsory schools can not be changed (too many people have tried and failed). See: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/17b.htm "Control of the educational enterprise is distributed among at least these twenty-two players, each of which can be subdivided into in-house warring factions which further remove the decision-making process from simple accessibility. The financial interests of these associational voices are served whether children learn to read or not. ... Some of this political impasse grew naturally from a maze of competing interests, some grew from more cynical calculations with exactly the end in mind we see, but whatever the formative motives, the net result is virtually impervious to democratically generated change. No large change can occur in-system without a complicated coalition of separate interests backing it, not one of which can actually be a primary advocate for children and parents." So, indirectly according to Gatto, compulsory schools are in the way of "Computer Programming for Everybody" and so have to go. :-) You can of course, like Gatto, bend or break the rules and really teach, even in K-12 compulsory schools. I'm sure some here do so. But you can't do it within the formal system openly for very long or without the special case of an unusual boss higher up. Yes, maybe a few "gifted" classes might provide unusual opportunities -- but never to the masses, never to anyone who wants it, as Escalante's case shows, never to "everybody". Despite your legitimate reservations, OLPC at least offers a coherent alternative to, say, more of the same compulsory schooling. Maybe not the best alternative, granted, compared to a loving family and a caring village of real people that can help educate a child. But at least the ersatz family of other local OLPC owners and the ersatz village of the internet are likely better than the ersatz family of the compulsory classroom and the ersatz village of TV we have now raising most kids. At the very least it seems worth a try, given the current system clearly doesn't work anymore (see the previously linked report "To fix US schools, [bipartisan] panel says, start over"). http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1215/p01s01-ussc.html But I'll agree, it is, at best, a second choice, compared to involved people free to interact outside the confines of standardization-oriented compulsion. But to make that happen requires even deeper thought about, say, the nature of "work" and our economy, see for example: http://www.whywork.org/ We would need to remake an economic world where parents of young children are the most financially stressed people in our culture, when the opposite should be true if we really cared, as a society, about the next generation. The first few years of life are when most brain growth happens; that is when you get the biggest bang for the buck of time and resources invested with children. And those early years are probably best kept computer and TV free, see for example: http://www.openwaldorf.com/media.html http://www.waldorfhomeschoolers.com/media.htm The early brain is evolved to learn from manipulating physical objects, watching nature, having social interactions, moving around, and so on. Using computers takes away time from those early nurturing experiences. OLPC can do practically nothing positive for those ages -- other than, say, if parents used it to educate themselves about child rearing issues, or if it helped parents and neighbors work less so they had more time for interacting with young children, say, by running a matter replicator; see, for example: " 3D Printers To Build Houses" http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/15/0038259& "The robots are rigged to a metal frame, enabling them to shuttle in three dimensions and assemble the structure of the house layer by layer. The sole foreman on site operates a computer programmed with the designer's plans. Inspired by the inkjet printer, the technology goes far beyond the techniques already used for prefabricated homes." See also: http://www.reprap.org/bin/view/Main/WebHome http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/09/2239206 http://www.zcorp.com/products/printersdetail.asp?ID=2 So, beyond OLPC, we also need a personal fabricator per family (PFPF?) :-) Powered by Python of course. :-) http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2006-September/007306.html --Paul Fernhout Arthur wrote: > What I hear when I look over the Squeak shoulders is that of course we > are not claiming that any of this is a substitute for an involved, > caring, creative teacher working in a caring, creative environment. But > given such a teacher in such an environment do you really suppose that > Squeak, or the OLPC, or Python, or PyGeo, or PataPata is actually of > much importance? > > I don't. From pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com Thu Jan 18 07:41:23 2007 From: pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com (Paul D. Fernhout) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 01:41:23 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment ("Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools") In-Reply-To: <200701180541.l0I5fDqR012643@theraft.openend.se> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> <45AEC049.9000807@kurtz-fernhout.com> <200701180541.l0I5fDqR012643@theraft.openend.se> Message-ID: <45AF1693.50804@kurtz-fernhout.com> Laura- That's a good sentiment to use testing to see how we the tester is succeeding at communicating. I totally agree with the benefit to any presenter of feedback about whether the audience gets what they are trying to present. Refining presentations and presentation skills is important. On the other hand, textbook authors or other non-fiction authors refine their presentations all the time without "testing" readers. They use other means (peer review, editors, focus groups, direct feedback on previous editions by readers, and so on). Would you buy a non-fiction book if you knew after each chapter someone would quiz you for fifteen minutes so the author could maybe make that chapter better? As an adult, you'd probably buy another book. A seemingly short ten minute test of a class of thirty uses up 300 life minutes, or five life-hours. Does a presenter have any clear right to those five life hours per test? Perhaps those life-hours could be spent more productively (like directly by the presenter in refining their presentation in other ways?) Personally I love written tests, or at least used to; so how the individual student experiences a test might vary, depending in part on attitude (and also a variety of other factors). Also, consider, on a practical basis, what is most important to teach is often "attitude". That's why the suggestion is to only praise effort ("I saw you tried hard!") and, perhaps, incremental progress ("You're getting smarter every day!"). See for example: Five Reasons to Stop Saying "Good Job!" http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm In the case of "Computer Programming for Everybody" the right attitude probably includes thinking you can understand some software component, or replace it, or make it better. For example, one thing that in the 1980s used to mark a good UNIX systems administrator was a willingness to consult the "man" pages for new commands; that was the only common thing about them in one study. It did not really matter how much they could recall about any command on a test. How do you test for "attitude"? I would think most good teachers don't need a written test for attitude of a student -- and would not even trust a written test as they get a lot of feedback from reading body language. And they can get that body language feedback even while presenting (not afterwards). Sure, you can test skills perhaps. You can test "aptitude". But how do you really test "attitude" on a practical basis, other than by being in a person's life and watching them in a variety of situations? Of course, you could try to formalize this the way, say, a behavioral ecologist scores actions of monkeys in a troupe (one grooming behavior, one eating behavior, etc.) but is there really much value in that? It's not a very human way to relate to other humans. Sure, anthropologists may do it, but people trying to communicate and mentor? Seems like a bit of a distraction if done regularly. Consider Gatto's more general comment on testing here, to see where the slippery slope of numerical grading heads: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/18t.htm "[I recommend to measure] performance with individualized instruments. Standardized tests, like schools themselves, have lost their moral legitimacy. They correlate with nothing of human value and their very existence perverts curriculum into a preparation for these extravagant rituals. Indeed, all paper and pencil tests are a waste of time, useless as predictors of anything important unless the competition is rigged. As a casual guide they are probably harmless, but as a sorting tool they are corrupt and deceitful. A test of whether you can drive is driving. Performance testing is where genuine evaluation will always be found. There surely can?t be a normal parent on earth who doesn?t judge his or her child?s progress by performance." So, how about performance testing as an indicator kids are learning some specific skill? For computer programming for everyone, perhaps it could be to write a program that does some task, and watch them do it? This is the kind of continual feedback one gets on presentations based on working with kids in the computer lab afterwards. Also, does it really matter if kids are learning what anyone is specifically trying to teach them at the time? Why should it matter? Kids are "Learning all the Time", to quote John Holt: http://www.holtgws.com/learningalltheti.html http://www.amazon.com/Learning-Time-John-Caldwell-Holt/dp/0201550911 So what if they don't learn what you want them to know when you want them to know it? Surely, if the environment is interesting enough, they are learning something. The need to test to ensure learning is a denial of people as learning creatures, who learn in their own ways, on their own timetables. Does a library give you a grade for each visit? Does a museum? Does your web browser? Does anyone deny libraries or museums or web browsers can be educational, even without testing? Would you use any of them if they did grade your understanding of everything you looked based on some criterion of their own and reported those grades about you to unknown people, perhaps into some kind of credit-score like facility related to future employment? Testing is a step towards control; whether for good or bad in various situations is a more difficult question. And what becomes of the results in a digital world with a long memory is even more problematical. As long as kids are not *compelled* to be in a class, one way of knowing a teacher is losing his or her audience is to look at the number of empty seats. :-) But a packed classroom is obviously not the only indicator of quality (they might show up for ice cream sundaes too. :-) And also, a kid deciding a subject is not of interest for him or her at the moment may itself be a sign of learning. --Paul Fernhout Laura Creighton wrote: > If you do it properly, a purpose (and I believe the most important one) > of testing-the-students is to let the teacher know how well he or she is > doing her job. If they aren't learning what you are trying to teach, you > need to do something differently. From jan.ulrich at hasecke.com Thu Jan 18 08:47:56 2007 From: jan.ulrich at hasecke.com (Jan Ulrich Hasecke) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 08:47:56 +0100 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python.Camp Message-ID: <190C809F-4B2E-4251-9E22-318E368DE4BC@hasecke.com> Hi all! I am deeply impressed by the profund discussions about OLPC. When I look at the equiment of an ordinary school in Germany, it would be nice if UNESCO would give all pupils a low cost notebook with python installed to have a decent possibility to learn programming. ;-) A week ago I proposed in a local python group (Python User Group Cologne) to organize a Python Camp for Kids. It is not very clear what this will be, but I think it could be a kind of weekend course with living in a youth hostel or tents or just a intense course during two afternoons. The idea was born out of private experience. I cannot find a institution, where my son could improve his programming skills after the first steps. School just sucks. And I am not a programmer. Does anybody here ever organized such an event and can provide a checklist or some hints how to organize it? Mit freundlichen Gr??en Jan Ulrich Hasecke -- hasecke.com Business Communication Schubertstr. 4 42719 Solingen Tel.: 0212-2331483 From jan.ulrich at hasecke.com Thu Jan 18 08:52:14 2007 From: jan.ulrich at hasecke.com (Jan Ulrich Hasecke) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 08:52:14 +0100 Subject: [Edu-sig] Podcast, E-Mail-Course, Tele-Learning Message-ID: <2A0E7320-DEC8-40AD-84F2-6EE06881CE71@hasecke.com> Hi, are there any podcasts or other tele-learning platforms around to learn python? Mit freundlichen Gr??en Jan Ulrich Hasecke -- hasecke.com Business Communication Schubertstr. 4 42719 Solingen Tel.: 0212-2331483 From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Jan 18 14:51:59 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 08:51:59 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment In-Reply-To: References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45AF7B7F.5050703@optonline.com> kirby urner wrote: > Honk honk! <--- goose noise > > "AFLAK!" Talk about interesting terminology ;) Art From pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com Thu Jan 18 15:23:44 2007 From: pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com (Paul D. Fernhout) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:23:44 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment ("Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools") In-Reply-To: References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> <45AEC049.9000807@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45AECAA3.6000808@optonline.com> <45AF0988.6020405@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: <45AF82F0.6050302@kurtz-fernhout.com> Bert- Thanks for the kind words. Well, I would not agree with everything he has to say, but I would expect the Austrian Rudolf Steiner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Steiner http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Steiner [auf Deutsch] as the originator of the "Waldorf education" method http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_schools http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf-P%C3%A4dagogik [auf Deutch] might have written much in German? See here: http://www.sab.org.br/steiner/biogr-eng.htm From the English Waldorf link: "Waldorf education (also called Steiner education) is based upon the educational philosophy of Rudolf Steiner, and stems from his spiritual/religious philosophy anthroposophy. [1] [2] This sees child development as a process of the child's soul and spirit incarnating into a developing living, physical organism.[3] Waldorf education emphasizes an imaginative and holistic approach to education.[4] Spiritual values are central both to the curriculum [5] and to the training of teachers.[6] [7] [8] [9] Waldorf education is practiced in more than 900 [citation needed]established independent private Waldorf schools located in about sixty different countries, in "Waldorf-method" government-funded schools, in homeschooling environments; and in special education." Personally I'm not into Waldorf education as a big picture, but I like a lot of the parts, especially their stand against media for young kids. I'd say the same about the Montessori method too (the other big well known alternative). And then of course there is bablefish automatic translator, http://babelfish.altavista.com/ though it is obviously an awkward mechanical translation: http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=en_de&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.johntaylorgatto.com [That link translates a page on Gatto's site from English to German and continues to translate as you click on links; it breaks sometimes] See also: http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=en_de&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.johntaylorgatto.com%2funderground%2findex.htm http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=en_de&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.johntaylorgatto.com%2funderground%2ftoc1.htm It's really interesting to at least try bablefish; it seems a miracle it works at all; I've used it a couple of times for translating Spanish sites about programming -- it's a funny experience to suddenly have such a site in a different language make (some) sense.. All the best. --Paul Fenrhout Bert Freudenberg wrote: > Am Jan 18, 2007 um 6:45 schrieb Paul D. Fernhout: > >> so no matter how cheap you made distributing a >> diversity of text books or related educational materials, schools would >> not want any but the standardized ones to be used at the standardized >> times. The point of conventional schooling was then ansd still is to >> produce a standard graded product, not amplify differences. As I >> point out >> in my previously linked essay >> "Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools" >> http://patapata.sourceforge.net/ >> WhyEducationalTechnologyHasFailedSchools.html >> computers linked to the internet have revolutionized just about every >> area >> of life today related to information access and education -- except, >> ironically, schooling. I think there is a reason. Schools are *actively* >> in the way of everything the better side of the world wide web >> promises -- >> diversity, expression, disintermediation, innovation, etc. > > > > Hi Paul, > > I *very* much enjoy reading your thoughts on technology and education. > I wish they were in German, to be able to show them to people here ... > Do you know any German writer with similar views? > > - Bert - From pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com Thu Jan 18 15:37:18 2007 From: pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com (Paul D. Fernhout) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:37:18 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Edusig auf Deutsch [in German] using Babelfish In-Reply-To: References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> <45AEC049.9000807@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45AECAA3.6000808@optonline.com> <45AF0988.6020405@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: <45AF861E.5090202@kurtz-fernhout.com> Bert- Just for fun, here is a link through Babelfish for edusig auf Deutsch: :-) http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=en_de&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fmail.python.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2fedu-sig See for example: "[ Edu-Edu-sig ] Slashdot Artikel: Programmieren Zicklein Jedoch?" http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=en_de&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmail.python.org%2Fpipermail%2Fedu-sig%2F2006-April%2F006308.html Or January's posts: http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=en_de&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fmail.python.org%2fpipermail%2fedu-sig%2f2007-January%2fthread.html I'd be curious what a native German speaker had to say about the quality or usefulness of these automatic translations of edusig? Useful? Confusing? Useless? --Paul Fernhout Bert Freudenberg wrote: > Am Jan 18, 2007 um 6:45 schrieb Paul D. Fernhout: > >> so no matter how cheap you made distributing a >> diversity of text books or related educational materials, schools would >> not want any but the standardized ones to be used at the standardized >> times. The point of conventional schooling was then ansd still is to >> produce a standard graded product, not amplify differences. As I >> point out >> in my previously linked essay >> "Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools" >> http://patapata.sourceforge.net/WhyEducationalTechnologyHasFailedSchools.html >> computers linked to the internet have revolutionized just about every >> area >> of life today related to information access and education -- except, >> ironically, schooling. I think there is a reason. Schools are *actively* >> in the way of everything the better side of the world wide web >> promises -- >> diversity, expression, disintermediation, innovation, etc. > > > > Hi Paul, > > I *very* much enjoy reading your thoughts on technology and education. > I wish they were in German, to be able to show them to people here ... > Do you know any German writer with similar views? > > - Bert - From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Jan 18 15:37:40 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:37:40 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment ("Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools") In-Reply-To: <45AF82F0.6050302@kurtz-fernhout.com> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> <45AEC049.9000807@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45AECAA3.6000808@optonline.com> <45AF0988.6020405@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45AF82F0.6050302@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: <45AF8634.2060309@optonline.com> Paul D. Fernhout wrote: > Personally I'm not into Waldorf education as a big picture, but I like a > lot of the parts, especially their stand against media for young kids. I'd > say the same about the Montessori method too (the other big well known > alternative). How did we get to Waldorf??/ Interesting. The Alliance for Childhood is, I believe, affiliated """ New report says government and high-tech industry foist expensive and unproven technology on schools, hurting children and undermining real technology literacy """ http://www.allianceforchildhood.net/projects/computers/index.htm Looking for friends, I had just (like yesterday) reached out to a technology writer whose work I admire, and who I believe, is influenced by some of the thinking coming out of the Steiner folks. As it happens, I have admired and studied some of the work on projective geometry that somehow Steiner's thinking has provoked. OTOH, (and as I related to the writer who I reached out to) when this provoked me into attempting to read Steiner directly, I ran into a jaw-dropping no go. Not for me. Art > And then of course there is bablefish automatic translator, > http://babelfish.altavista.com/ > though it is obviously an awkward mechanical translation: > http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=en_de&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.johntaylorgatto.com > [That link translates a page on Gatto's site from English to German and > continues to translate as you click on links; it breaks sometimes] > See also: > http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=en_de&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.johntaylorgatto.com%2funderground%2findex.htm > http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=en_de&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.johntaylorgatto.com%2funderground%2ftoc1.htm > > It's really interesting to at least try bablefish; it seems a miracle it > works at all; I've used it a couple of times for translating Spanish sites > about programming -- it's a funny experience to suddenly have such a site > in a different language make (some) sense.. > > All the best. > > --Paul Fenrhout > > Bert Freudenberg wrote: > >>Am Jan 18, 2007 um 6:45 schrieb Paul D. Fernhout: >> >> >>> so no matter how cheap you made distributing a >>>diversity of text books or related educational materials, schools would >>>not want any but the standardized ones to be used at the standardized >>>times. The point of conventional schooling was then ansd still is to >>>produce a standard graded product, not amplify differences. As I >>>point out >>>in my previously linked essay >>> "Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools" >>>http://patapata.sourceforge.net/ >>>WhyEducationalTechnologyHasFailedSchools.html >>>computers linked to the internet have revolutionized just about every >>>area >>>of life today related to information access and education -- except, >>>ironically, schooling. I think there is a reason. Schools are *actively* >>>in the way of everything the better side of the world wide web >>>promises -- >>>diversity, expression, disintermediation, innovation, etc. >> >> >> >>Hi Paul, >> >>I *very* much enjoy reading your thoughts on technology and education. >>I wish they were in German, to be able to show them to people here ... >>Do you know any German writer with similar views? >> >>- Bert - > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > > From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Jan 18 15:52:17 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:52:17 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment In-Reply-To: <45AE9B0A.5090004@solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> <45AE9B0A.5090004@solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <45AF89A1.8070406@optonline.com> Ivan Krsti? wrote: > > I don't think I can actually figure out what you're saying here. I am > happy to have a discussion, but that requires understanding what's being > discussed; please consider rephrasing your concerns in very simple, > non-philosophical terms. > If it is any consolation, you are in good company. Guido has expressed from time to time frustration at trying to figure out what I am saying. And I have been accused of being "baroque" in my choice of language. Which I find strange because I think of myself as a schoolyard brawler. I separate the OLPC into 2 aspects: 1) a piece of hardware that is inexpensive, innovative in design, and with an Open Source infrastructure. 2) an embedded philosophy about technology and education. Let's just say I am very anxious to get my hands on both - just in very different senses of the phrase ;) Art From bert at freudenbergs.de Thu Jan 18 17:47:12 2007 From: bert at freudenbergs.de (Bert Freudenberg) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:47:12 +0100 (MET) Subject: [Edu-sig] Edusig auf Deutsch [in German] using Babelfish In-Reply-To: <45AF861E.5090202@kurtz-fernhout.com> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> <45AEC049.9000807@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45AECAA3.6000808@optonline.com> <45AF0988.6020405@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45AF861E.5090202@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: <25068F1C-040B-4DB8-9654-8CF58B164A3D@freudenbergs.de> It is hilariously funny at times, but pretty much useless, at least for philosophical discourse. - Bert - Am Jan 18, 2007 um 15:37 schrieb Paul D. Fernhout: > Bert- > > Just for fun, here is a link through Babelfish for edusig auf > Deutsch: :-) > http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent? > lp=en_de&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fmail.python.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo% > 2fedu-sig > > See for example: > "[ Edu-Edu-sig ] Slashdot Artikel: Programmieren Zicklein Jedoch?" > http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent? > lp=en_de&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmail.python.org%2Fpipermail%2Fedu-sig% > 2F2006-April%2F006308.html > > Or January's posts: > http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent? > lp=en_de&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fmail.python.org%2fpipermail%2fedu-sig% > 2f2007-January%2fthread.html > > I'd be curious what a native German speaker had to say about the > quality > or usefulness of these automatic translations of edusig? > Useful? Confusing? Useless? > > --Paul Fernhout > > Bert Freudenberg wrote: >> Am Jan 18, 2007 um 6:45 schrieb Paul D. Fernhout: >> >>> so no matter how cheap you made distributing a >>> diversity of text books or related educational materials, >>> schools would >>> not want any but the standardized ones to be used at the >>> standardized >>> times. The point of conventional schooling was then ansd still is to >>> produce a standard graded product, not amplify differences. As I >>> point out >>> in my previously linked essay >>> "Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools" >>> http://patapata.sourceforge.net/ >>> WhyEducationalTechnologyHasFailedSchools.html >>> computers linked to the internet have revolutionized just about >>> every >>> area >>> of life today related to information access and education -- except, >>> ironically, schooling. I think there is a reason. Schools are >>> *actively* >>> in the way of everything the better side of the world wide web >>> promises -- >>> diversity, expression, disintermediation, innovation, etc. >> >> >> >> Hi Paul, >> >> I *very* much enjoy reading your thoughts on technology and >> education. >> I wish they were in German, to be able to show them to people >> here ... >> Do you know any German writer with similar views? >> >> - Bert - From bert at freudenbergs.de Thu Jan 18 17:56:48 2007 From: bert at freudenbergs.de (Bert Freudenberg) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:56:48 +0100 (MET) Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment ("Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools") In-Reply-To: <45AF82F0.6050302@kurtz-fernhout.com> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> <45AEC049.9000807@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45AECAA3.6000808@optonline.com> <45AF0988.6020405@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45AF82F0.6050302@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: <35E1031A-8E41-4000-8883-95F1E7F13A62@freudenbergs.de> Thanks Paul, I know of Steiner, we have a son who went to a Waldorf school. We choose a Montessori school for our other kids, which I like much better. Anyway, I was specifically looking for someone both knowledgable in education *and* technology, and writing about the intersection of the two. - Bert - Am Jan 18, 2007 um 15:23 schrieb Paul D. Fernhout: > Bert- > > Thanks for the kind words. > > Well, I would not agree with everything he has to say, but I would > expect > the Austrian Rudolf Steiner > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Steiner > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Steiner [auf Deutsch] > as the originator of the "Waldorf education" method > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_schools > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf-P%C3%A4dagogik [auf Deutch] > might have written much in German? See here: > http://www.sab.org.br/steiner/biogr-eng.htm > From the English Waldorf link: > "Waldorf education (also called Steiner education) is based upon > the > educational philosophy of Rudolf Steiner, and stems from his > spiritual/religious philosophy anthroposophy. [1] [2] This sees child > development as a process of the child's soul and spirit incarnating > into a > developing living, physical organism.[3] Waldorf education > emphasizes an > imaginative and holistic approach to education.[4] Spiritual values > are > central both to the curriculum [5] and to the training of teachers. > [6] [7] > [8] [9] Waldorf education is practiced in more than 900 [citation > needed]established independent private Waldorf schools located in > about > sixty different countries, in "Waldorf-method" government-funded > schools, > in homeschooling environments; and in special education." > > Personally I'm not into Waldorf education as a big picture, but I > like a > lot of the parts, especially their stand against media for young > kids. I'd > say the same about the Montessori method too (the other big well known > alternative). > > And then of course there is bablefish automatic translator, > http://babelfish.altavista.com/ > though it is obviously an awkward mechanical translation: > http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent? > lp=en_de&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.johntaylorgatto.com > [That link translates a page on Gatto's site from English to German > and > continues to translate as you click on links; it breaks sometimes] > See also: > http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent? > lp=en_de&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.johntaylorgatto.com%2funderground% > 2findex.htm > http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent? > lp=en_de&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.johntaylorgatto.com%2funderground% > 2ftoc1.htm > > It's really interesting to at least try bablefish; it seems a > miracle it > works at all; I've used it a couple of times for translating > Spanish sites > about programming -- it's a funny experience to suddenly have such > a site > in a different language make (some) sense.. > > All the best. > > --Paul Fenrhout > > Bert Freudenberg wrote: >> Am Jan 18, 2007 um 6:45 schrieb Paul D. Fernhout: >> >>> so no matter how cheap you made distributing a >>> diversity of text books or related educational materials, >>> schools would >>> not want any but the standardized ones to be used at the >>> standardized >>> times. The point of conventional schooling was then ansd still is to >>> produce a standard graded product, not amplify differences. As I >>> point out >>> in my previously linked essay >>> "Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools" >>> http://patapata.sourceforge.net/ >>> WhyEducationalTechnologyHasFailedSchools.html >>> computers linked to the internet have revolutionized just about >>> every >>> area >>> of life today related to information access and education -- except, >>> ironically, schooling. I think there is a reason. Schools are >>> *actively* >>> in the way of everything the better side of the world wide web >>> promises -- >>> diversity, expression, disintermediation, innovation, etc. >> >> >> >> Hi Paul, >> >> I *very* much enjoy reading your thoughts on technology and >> education. >> I wish they were in German, to be able to show them to people >> here ... >> Do you know any German writer with similar views? >> >> - Bert - From kirby.urner at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 18:50:44 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:50:44 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment In-Reply-To: <45AF7B7F.5050703@optonline.com> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> <45AF7B7F.5050703@optonline.com> Message-ID: On 1/18/07, Arthur wrote: > kirby urner wrote: > > > Honk honk! <--- goose noise > > > > "AFLAK!" > > Talk about interesting terminology ;) > > Art > I maybe should've elaborated, when I talked about not having OLPC in my active namespace... We call our program CP4E, with an emphasis on the E (Everyone or Everybody). Doesn't mean you are required by law to give a fig about computer programming (CP), but does mean our curriculum writers have a responsibility to write for all levels, and that includes making assumptions about hardware and bandwidth availability. As someone who pushes NALB (No Adult...) in the Math Forum, you might see where I'm consistently moving into the adult registers [making voice sound deeper sound effect]. In concert with CP4E, I write for HP4E, a partially overlapping curriculum with a more geometrical spin (HP stands for HexaPent, a made up geek word, like "Gnu Math" and "Katrina Math"). Kirby From pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com Thu Jan 18 19:39:42 2007 From: pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com (Paul D. Fernhout) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 13:39:42 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment ("Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools") In-Reply-To: <35E1031A-8E41-4000-8883-95F1E7F13A62@freudenbergs.de> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> <45AEC049.9000807@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45AECAA3.6000808@optonline.com> <45AF0988.6020405@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45AF82F0.6050302@kurtz-fernhout.com> <35E1031A-8E41-4000-8883-95F1E7F13A62@freudenbergs.de> Message-ID: <45AFBEEE.1070505@kurtz-fernhout.com> I guess you have your work cut out for you then to write one. :-) Thanks for the comments on Babelfish. --Paul Fernhout P.S. I did find that John Holt's _How Children Learn_ has been translated to fourteen languages -- not sure what they are though: http://www.holtgws.com/johnholtpage.html You also might find this to have interesting links: http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingotherwise According to that: "Germany Although homeschooling is not legal in Germany at this time, there is a new web site for promoting respectful parenting and natural learning in Germany. Mit Kindern leben und lernen it's in German http://www.unschooling.de/ German Unschooling list Mostly ... German with a few Austrians and a handful of Dutch and English readers unerzogen at yahoogroups.de " Poking around at the unschooling.de URL, I found: http://www.leben-ohne-schule.de/deutschland.html I would think someone in there are bound to be links to people writing about technology and education in a German context, as there is some intersection. There are also some links here, of course, mostly to German news articles: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Germany Example: http://www.computerpartner.de/news/203352/ Then there is also "Skolelinux Germany": http://www.fsfeurope.org/projects/education/tgs/tagatschool8.en.html Might be some discussions related to that in German? A related wiki: http://wiki.skolelinux.de/ My German from school is very rusty, so I can't easily be of more help; sorry. I would think searching on "John Holt" for his later writings might get you some interesting things though. Also, one more thought: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sudbury_Schools "The following schools follow the Sudbury model of non-compulsory, democratic education, pioneered by Sudbury Valley School: [One in Leipzig, Germany] http://www.sudbury-hl.de/ " Maybe some links from there or people to talk to about technology and education (especially if you are anywhere around Leipzig, Germany)? I know that unschooling or homeschooling is generally not as available in Europe as in the USA, but I also think that alternative schools, like Montessori, Waldorf, or the Sudbury model are perhaps more common (as you yourself discovered already). Personally, I think the "Free school" model is the most workable compromise given today's society, and if I lived in Europe I would be thinking more about those. I'd even consider it if my family lived nearby one here in the USA. I guess there is something I can thank the USA's social conservative movement for -- homeschooling laws making unschooling possible. :-) I can't imagine how much fun it would be to teach Python in such a setting, where if the kids are working with you they are doing it out of genuine interest (even if it might not be long lasting). Those schools tend to expect more parental involvement in the schools, and I know if I sent a child to one, as a parent, I'd want to be offering Python (or Squeak) programming experiences to all the kids there as a volunteer. Bert Freudenberg wrote: > Thanks Paul, > > I know of Steiner, we have a son who went to a Waldorf school. We > choose a Montessori school for our other kids, which I like much better. > > Anyway, I was specifically looking for someone both knowledgable in > education *and* technology, and writing about the intersection of the two. From bert at freudenbergs.de Thu Jan 18 20:07:20 2007 From: bert at freudenbergs.de (Bert Freudenberg) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 20:07:20 +0100 (MET) Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment ("Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools") In-Reply-To: <45AFBEEE.1070505@kurtz-fernhout.com> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> <45AEC049.9000807@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45AECAA3.6000808@optonline.com> <45AF0988.6020405@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45AF82F0.6050302@kurtz-fernhout.com> <35E1031A-8E41-4000-8883-95F1E7F13A62@freudenbergs.de> <45AFBEEE.1070505@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: Am Jan 18, 2007 um 19:39 schrieb Paul D. Fernhout: > I guess you have your work cut out for you then to write one. :-) > > Thanks for the comments on Babelfish. > > --Paul Fernhout > > P.S. [... links ...] I'll have a look there. I was actually hoping for a personal recommendation, but if you don't have any, well, thanks anyway :) > I know that unschooling or homeschooling is generally not as > available in > Europe as in the USA, but I also think that alternative schools, like > Montessori, Waldorf, or the Sudbury model are perhaps more common > (as you > yourself discovered already). Personally, I think the "Free school" > model > is the most workable compromise given today's society, and if I > lived in > Europe I would be thinking more about those. I'd even consider it > if my > family lived nearby one here in the USA. I guess there is something > I can > thank the USA's social conservative movement for -- homeschooling laws > making unschooling possible. :-) Yes, homeschooling is actually illegal in Germany. > I can't imagine how much fun it would be to teach Python in such a > setting, where if the kids are working with you they are doing it > out of > genuine interest (even if it might not be long lasting). Those schools > tend to expect more parental involvement in the schools, and I know > if I > sent a child to one, as a parent, I'd want to be offering Python (or > Squeak) programming experiences to all the kids there as a volunteer. ... which is indeed exactly what my wife did (with some general assistance from me) in that free Montessori school :) - Bert - From francois.schnell at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 20:12:20 2007 From: francois.schnell at gmail.com (francois schnell) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 20:12:20 +0100 Subject: [Edu-sig] Podcast, E-Mail-Course, Tele-Learning In-Reply-To: <2A0E7320-DEC8-40AD-84F2-6EE06881CE71@hasecke.com> References: <2A0E7320-DEC8-40AD-84F2-6EE06881CE71@hasecke.com> Message-ID: <13a83ca10701181112qe6ad8f2q624855ffd4970218@mail.gmail.com> On 18/01/07, Jan Ulrich Hasecke wrote: > > Hi, Hello, are there any podcasts or other tele-learning platforms around to > learn python? I'm not sure about "tele-learning" but you can find lots of good tutorials here : http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide also "Python 411" is a nice podcast for your mp3 player: http://www.awaretek.com/python/index.html and some screencasts: http://showmedo.com/videos/python If you want e-mail help I really recommend this list : http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor It's a very supportive and friendly list (unlike the edu-sig list which is often more pathetic than pythonic to my taste) ;) francois Mit freundlichen Gr??en > Jan Ulrich Hasecke > > -- > hasecke.com Business Communication > Schubertstr. 4 > 42719 Solingen > Tel.: 0212-2331483 > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20070118/d4e05560/attachment.html From kirby.urner at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 20:34:17 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 11:34:17 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python.Camp In-Reply-To: <190C809F-4B2E-4251-9E22-318E368DE4BC@hasecke.com> References: <190C809F-4B2E-4251-9E22-318E368DE4BC@hasecke.com> Message-ID: > Does anybody here ever organized such an event and can provide a > checklist or some hints how to organize it? > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en > Jan Ulrich Hasecke Greetings Jan -- In Silicon Forest, though many woodsy camps are in radius, we prefer to hold weekend Python classes in an already well equipped university computer lab. We might try "retreat formats" as budgets permit, but for now that adds overhead (there's a cool facility near Black Butte my brother in law helped build that might serve). If you are successful, I will be interested to learn what logistical lessons were learned, starting with the Internet connectivity solution (the low-cost laptops, as you know, implement a P2P bridge network that gives outliers leap frog access to fat pipe termini -- that's how it's advertised in Cambodia anyway). The students, high or middle schoolers in the regular work week, suddenly get a more adult level intro to a lot of topics, thanks to our saturdayacademy.org. We've found Python alone doesn't make enough sense. Python in a math context (my earlier approach, still using) helps a lot. However, Python in the Internet context helps the most, meaning we talk a lot about the stack, packets, protocols, stuff like that, all of which I allude to in my Virtual Pycon Keynote Address (VPKA) discussed in more detail here: http://mail.geneseo.edu/pipermail/math-thinking-l/2007-January/001087.html Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Jan 18 21:33:49 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 15:33:49 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Podcast, E-Mail-Course, Tele-Learning In-Reply-To: <13a83ca10701181112qe6ad8f2q624855ffd4970218@mail.gmail.com> References: <2A0E7320-DEC8-40AD-84F2-6EE06881CE71@hasecke.com> <13a83ca10701181112qe6ad8f2q624855ffd4970218@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45AFD9AD.2070007@optonline.com> francois schnell wrote: > It's a very supportive and friendly list (unlike the edu-sig list which is > often more pathetic than pythonic to my taste) ;) More irony from francois, I have to assume. Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 00:36:21 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 15:36:21 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment (vs. Apprenticeship) In-Reply-To: <45AEF975.7090506@kurtz-fernhout.com> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> <45AEC049.9000807@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45AECAA3.6000808@optonline.com> <45AEF975.7090506@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: > Kirby U. here sounds like he does that. But, there is no realistic way a > person can really have 30 apprentices, let alone 150 as is typical in high > school (one teacher with five classes of thirty kids each). One or two > apprentices is quite doable, even up to five, maybe. Much more than that, > and at best you have a pipeline (like the one room schoolhouse) where the > older apprentices teach the younger, as a sort of learning community. This is very apropos actually, as through my work with saturdayacademy.org, a kid'll sometimes bubble up to my attention, as in need of special mentoring. Just a couple days ago the director was running a case by me, without giving a name. Based on prior experience, I guessed who we were talking about, though some kids in my more recent class might also be growing more frustrated as well, given they've pretty much exhausted what our curriculum has to offer a kid at that age (which is why we're scrambling to produce more). This also happended at winterhaven.pps.or.us, where my advice was sought on an 8 year old already partitioning a hard drive for the express purpose of testing multiple operating systems. Later (still age 8), he sshed from a classroom NT computer in the school intranet to his laptop via Putty, his borrowed IBM Thinkpad running a telnet server in Mandrake Linux. In the case of the older boy (age 15), I suggested to his dad that he think about OSCON 2007, which I'm also thinking to propose a talk for, but it involves a motorvehicle I haven't found yet (the SUV in New Mexico came close). Given OSCON happens locally, the boy could take TriMet, spending days mingling with the O'Reilly folks etc., very friendly, smart, plus local fauna like @ Stonehenge (more of a Perl shop, but that wouldn't be a barrier to this already-multilingual prodigy). If someone really insists on working with me personally, then I try to enlist their support in going back to the schools and recruiting, showing peers someone close to their own age, or younger, already mastering this that (or the other) gnu math topic (RSS, IM, SQL, VPython... MailMan, MoinMoin). This might happen virtually, i.e. a protege could show up for a few minutes on YouTube from time to time, introducing some geek topic of special interest, show how it's done. Others could then chime in with their offerings, using IRC to chat about their relative merits, pedagogical effectiveness and so on (much as older adults do, around their stuff). I've actually built a sort of business model around this process at myspace.com/4dstudios -- focusing on mathcasting as a subtype of screencasting (at various bandwidths and/or resolutions). Kirby From jasonic at nomadics.org Fri Jan 19 01:40:29 2007 From: jasonic at nomadics.org (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 09:40:29 +0900 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment (vs. Apprenticeship) In-Reply-To: References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> <45AEC049.9000807@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45AECAA3.6000808@optonline.com> <45AEF975.7090506@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: <45B0137D.90808@nomadics.org> kirby urner wrote: > This might happen virtually, i.e. a protege could show up for a few minutes > on YouTube from time to time, introducing some geek topic of special > interest, show how it's done. Others could then chime in with their > offerings, using IRC to chat about their relative merits, pedagogical > effectiveness and so on (much as older adults do, around their stuff). I've > actually built a sort of business model around this process at > myspace.com/4dstudios -- focusing on mathcasting as a subtype of > screencasting (at various bandwidths and/or resolutions). > ooh... *mathcasting* Nice one ! I like the sound of that Kirby. Jason From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 01:53:36 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:53:36 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment (vs. Apprenticeship) In-Reply-To: <45B0137D.90808@nomadics.org> References: <45AE2F7E.1010108@optonline.com> <45AEC049.9000807@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45AECAA3.6000808@optonline.com> <45AEF975.7090506@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45B0137D.90808@nomadics.org> Message-ID: On 1/18/07, Jason Cunliffe wrote: > ooh... *mathcasting* > Nice one ! > I like the sound of that Kirby. > > Jason Thanks Jason, though I make no claims to inventing the term. If you've spent much time on YouTube, you've started to build up a sense of the genre, at least in its early phase. Here's a link to some samples: http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=5481263&tstart=0 Kirby From jasonic at nomadics.org Fri Jan 19 01:57:20 2007 From: jasonic at nomadics.org (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 09:57:20 +0900 Subject: [Edu-sig] OT: calculating dodeca icosa solid assembly angles Message-ID: <45B01770.9080004@nomadics.org> I need to make some regular dodecahedrons and icossahedrons for sculptural project. Want to set up some jigs for mitre saw and saw table in my shop, to help me cut wood and plastic modules for making several prototypes at different sizes and and as for making casting molds etc. Repeat precision is the name of the game. Can anyone please point me to good info for angles and layout specs to do this? The most important data I am missing is the solid bevel angle each face should have for assembling dodecas and icosas respectively. Bonus request is if you can show me the [pythonic] math for calculating this simple angle. Thanks very much any suggestions, links etc. Jason From jmax at sfu.ca Fri Jan 19 01:42:49 2007 From: jmax at sfu.ca (John Maxwell) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:42:49 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation Message-ID: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> Hi, Over the past few years, I have been working on a historical study on Alan Kay's Dynabook vision and how it has played out over the past three and a half decades. This has been part of my PhD work in education at the University of BC -- as such, I am working from an educational perspective, rather than a compsci one. I recently (November 2006) finished the dissertation and successfully defended it, and so I'm posting this in the hopes that some of you will find some value in it. I've been reading this edu-sig list since its inception, and in the past 6 months or so I've noticed an enormous surge of interest in (and controversy around) Squeak and Alan Kay's Dynabook concept. I've been reading these discussions with great interest, as much of it touches directly on what I've been writing. While I haven't written about Python per se in my dissertation, it is implicitly there for the simple reason that Python has been my own language of choice for the past 4 or 5 years; much of what Paul Fernhout written recently about appreciating Smalltalk while still finding Python more practical is very close to my own experience. The entire work is roughly 300 pages. This link leads to a PDF of just under 2 megabytes. At some point, if I have some time, I want to break this out into some more granular web pages, but I'm already late in releasing it, so here it is in its entirety. You can find it (along with a brief abstract and ToC) at: http://thinkubator.ccsp.sfu.ca/Dynabook/dissertation I'm very interested in any comments you might have. - John Maxwell Canadian Centre for Studies in Publishing Simon Fraser University jmax at sfu.ca From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 03:27:09 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 18:27:09 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] OT: calculating dodeca icosa solid assembly angles In-Reply-To: <45B01770.9080004@nomadics.org> References: <45B01770.9080004@nomadics.org> Message-ID: > Bonus request is if you can show me the [pythonic] math for calculating > this simple angle. > > Thanks very much any suggestions, links etc. > Jason For the icosahedron, I think you should focus on the 20 almost-regular tetrahedra, with slices parallel to the bases (the 20 facets) defining the thin outer shell of your handsome wooden and/or plastic casement. Your bevel angle will be the dihedral angle between the base and any one of the three facets meeting at the apex ( = icosahedron center). The altitude of this almost-regular tetrahedron is now of concern. My rbf.py will have the Icosahedron in terms of its facets (tuples) and vertex vectors (a dictionary): IDLE 1.1 >>> import rbf Visual 2005-01-08 >>> someicosa = rbf.Icosa() >>> someicosa.vertices {'Q1': vector(-0.809016994374947, 0, 0.5), 'P1': vector(0.809016994374947, 0, 0.5), 'R1': vector(0, -0.5, 0.809016994374947), 'S1': vector(0, 0.5, -0.809016994374947), 'U1': vector(-0.809016994374947, 0, -0.5), 'T1': vector(0.809016994374947, 0, -0.5), 'V1': vector(0, -0.5, -0.809016994374947), 'W1': vector(-0.5, 0.809016994374947, 0), 'Y1': vector(0.5, -0.809016994374947, 0), 'X1': vector(-0.5, -0.809016994374947, 0), 'Z1': vector(0.5, 0.809016994374947, 0), 'O1': vector(0, 0.5, 0.809016994374947)} >>> someicosa.faces [('O1', 'Q1', 'W1'), ('O1', 'Z1', 'P1'), ('P1', 'R1', 'Y1'), ('R1', 'Q1', 'X1'), ('W1', 'S1', 'U1'), ('U1', 'X1', 'V1'), ('Y1', 'T1', 'V1'), ('Z1', 'T1', 'S1'), ('O1', 'P1', 'R1'), ('O1', 'Q1', 'R1'), ('O1', 'Z1', 'W1'), ('W1', 'S1', 'Z1'), ('Q1', 'W1', 'U1'), ('Q1', 'U1', 'X1'), ('Z1', 'P1', 'T1'), ('Y1', 'P1', 'T1'), ('R1', 'Y1', 'X1'), ('V1', 'Y1', 'X1'), ('T1', 'S1', 'V1'), ('U1', 'S1', 'V1')] So now I'll pick the first face, add the three edge vectors, and divide by 3, to get the vector going straight from ORIGIN (icosa center) to the center of one of its triangular faces. >>> altitude = (1/3.0) * (someicosa.vertices['O1'] + someicosa.vertices['Q1'] + someicosa.vertices['W1']) >>> altitude vector(-0.436338998124982, 0.436338998124982, 0.436338998124982) >>> dir(altitude) ['__abs__', '__add__', '__class__', '__delattr__', '__dict__', '__div__', '__doc__', '__getattribute__', '__getitem__', '__hash__', '__iadd__', '__idiv__', '__imul__', '__init__', '__instance_size__', '__isub__', '__itruediv__', '__len__', '__module__', '__mul__', '__neg__', '__new__', '__pos__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__rmul__', '__setattr__', '__setitem__', '__str__', '__sub__', '__truediv__', '__weakref__', 'astuple', 'clear', 'comp', 'cross', 'diff_angle', 'dot', 'mag', 'mag2', 'norm', 'proj', 'rotate', 'x', 'y', 'z'] >>> altitude.mag 0.75576131407617064 Next, I'll define the edge going from ORIGIN to a mid-edge on the surface: >>> sideline = (1/2.0) * (someicosa.vertices['O1'] + someicosa.vertices['Q1']) Their angle difference should give the 2nd angle of a right triangle, with the right angle where the tetrahedron's altitude meets the face center, the other leg being from this point to a mid Icosa edge on the surface, the hypotenuse being the above sideline. >>> altitude.diff_angle(sideline) 0.36486382811348295 >>> from math import degrees >>> 180 - 90 - degrees(0.36486382811348295) 69.09484255211072 >>> degrees(0.36486382811348295) 20.905157447889287 So I'm getting a bevel angle of like 69.1 degrees. This seems about right, because the corresponding dihedral angle for a *regular* tetrahedron is 70.53 degrees whereas here the "tent pole" is a little shorter, so the sides rise a little less steeply. http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Tetrahedron.html As another check, the sideline, plus an origin-vertex edge, plus a half edge on the surface (length = 1/2) should be a right triangle. Check: >>> sideline.mag2 + 0.5**2 0.90450849718747373 >>> someicosa.vertices['Q1'].mag2 0.90450849718747373 Edge length check: >>> (someicosa.vertices['Q1'] - someicosa.vertices['O1']).mag 1.0 Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Jan 19 04:09:44 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 22:09:44 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> Message-ID: <45B03678.80408@optonline.com> John Maxwell wrote: > I've been reading this edu-sig list since its inception sympathies. , and in the > past 6 months or so I've noticed an enormous surge of interest in > (and controversy around) Squeak and Alan Kay's Dynabook concept. what's the controversy? powerful and dangerous ideas. everyone agrees. Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 05:35:43 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 20:35:43 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> Message-ID: On 1/18/07, John Maxwell wrote: <> > http://thinkubator.ccsp.sfu.ca/Dynabook/dissertation > > I'm very interested in any comments you might have. > > > - John Maxwell Hi John -- I've read up through pg 20 of your intro thus far, to right before you launch into Alan's story. Since you track this list you probably know I was on the team representing Python at a Shuttleworth Foundation summit in Kensington last April, Alan Kay attending, Papert invited but as you know a tad elderly. There are so many ways to give an account of the early years of the computer revolution. Any thumbnail will be inadequate but mine is more like Neal Stephenson's in "In the beginning..." which goes to Morlocks and Eloi per H.G. Wells, much as you fork to experts and end-users (a mythology it looks like you're preparing to fight, which is heartening). The Morlocks needed free and open source and didn't get that with CP/M, DOS, OS/2, Windows, or Mac (up until OS X). In school they got it with Unix *if* on the team to play with (develop) Unix, e.g. at UC Berkeley, source of FreeBSD. Or they got it at IBM, internally, with VMS, APL or whatever. But once "on the outside" (no longer lucky enough to be in school or inside a large computer savvy corporation), a young Morlock penguin was "frozen out", kept away from her or his chief joy. With hardware getting ridiculously inexpensive, that *had* to change, and it did (I'm not a technological determinist, but I think it'd have taken forces way greater than SCO to quell the geek takeover of geekdom). So in my telling, the revolution hadn't really started yet in those early Wordstar and WordPerfect days. That was an office culture revolution, a change of equipment, but had little to do with real computing or computer science *except* where so-called power users were concerned, with their spreadsheet macros, with their xBase. I call that the "the bizapp revolution" and I lived through it first hand, could write a 300 page novel and/or autobio about it easy. Yawn. Actually, might be fun. Title "Have xBase Will Travel" -- to Bhutan even, both solo and later with my wife, Dawn Wicca, and her/our young Alexia (1980s). Anyway, you've picked an interesting topic: the trajectory of Alan Kay and his Dynabook concept (Prospero's Books to Shakespeare). Having met the man, I have to say he still intrigues me. We're very different animals he and I, but we managed to share beer together, and agree on many points, plus disagree amicably and/or reach a divergence of views on many more. So I plan to read on. Kirby From delza at livingcode.org Fri Jan 19 05:53:58 2007 From: delza at livingcode.org (Dethe Elza) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 20:53:58 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> Message-ID: Hi John, As a Vancouver Pythonista, do you ever come to the Python user group meetings? If not, would you like to? http://www.vanpyz.org/ (Ignore the notice that the next meeting will be October 3, they are generally on the first Tuesday of each month, but right now we're waiting for next month's speaker to confirm the date). --Dethe "The Brazilian government is definitely pro-law. But if law doesn't fit reality anymore, law has to be changed. That's not a new thing. That's civilisation as usual." --Gilberto Gil, Brazilian Minister of Culture From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Jan 19 14:10:42 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:10:42 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> Message-ID: <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> kirby urner wrote: > So in my telling, the revolution hadn't really started yet in > those early Wordstar and WordPerfect days. That was an > office culture revolution, a change of equipment, but had > little to do with real computing or computer science *except* > where so-called power users were concerned, with their > spreadsheet macros, with their xBase. Absolutely right, and importantly right. At least that is the story I *lived*, as well. I was a business spreadsheet guy until by some miracle I was able to install on my computer - for free - a powerful, see-through, big-boy operating system that was the standard fare of academics and scientists for decades. *THAT HAD NO INTERFACE* to speak of. That was not kidstuff, as was essentially everything else then available. And with it I could plug into what the academics and scientists had been doing, because that is a culture more about the sharing of ideas and the competition of ideas than about the selling of ideas. While Kay is a product, very much, of the corporate world - Apple, Disney, HP. It shows in everything he is about. You have hit the nail, pretty much on the head, on why I consider Kay a diversion. But it also means that to a good extent among the heroes of my story is the traditional academic world. I think of things like the Geometry Center at the University of Minnesota. The power of the operating system that had descended from the heavens and that I could install on my 386 was the power to rejoin that world, to not be frozen out of a world of thinking for thinking's sake. Which is why I balk at a Python conference that emphasizes matters of education and clumsily freezes out the academics. My *insistence* on certain things is that we are in fact talking about things *lived*, not imagined. The history with Kay at or near its epicenter is very much *not* the history I lived. I do not believe, in fact, it exists in the way the history is now being written. One doesn't need to be particularly perceptive to know what one lived. But the elders must tell the story, and must tell it right. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Jan 19 14:47:59 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:47:59 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45B0CC0F.6000406@optonline.com> Arthur wrote: > kirby urner wrote: > My *insistence* on certain things is that we are in fact talking about > things *lived*, not imagined. The history with Kay at or near its > epicenter is very much *not* the history I lived. Damn it, I hate when Kirby is not only right, but more thorough. There is another parallel story. The story of let's call it - office productivity. Seeing the fax machine come online. People interfacing with complex machines in simple ways. Producitivity. Getting stuff out-the-door. So we all get to eat. Not an unimportant story. Here the world of human-computer interface takes on its importance. And I don't think one can talk about the world of human-computer interface without talking about Kay. But this is edu-sig. And I don't think it is the story that is of central relevance here. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Jan 19 15:16:14 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 09:16:14 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: <45B0CC0F.6000406@optonline.com> References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> <45B0CC0F.6000406@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> Arthur wrote: > Here > the world of human-computer interface takes on its importance. And I > don't think one can talk about the world of human-computer interface > without talking about Kay. > > But this is edu-sig. > > And I don't think it is the story that is of central relevance here. Trying to peek below the surface, in the world of productivity, had and has a very simple definition: Wastng Time. There are Computer Guys for that. So things lead me to the world of the Computer Guys. And I sometimes get the impression that is just how they like things to be, and want things to remain. Art From bert at freudenbergs.de Fri Jan 19 15:16:53 2007 From: bert at freudenbergs.de (Bert Freudenberg) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:16:53 +0100 (MET) Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> Message-ID: <86FC73CD-B45E-4F38-903B-3D9FDEEB32D5@freudenbergs.de> Am Jan 19, 2007 um 14:10 schrieb Arthur: > And with it I could plug into what the academics and scientists had > been > doing, because that is a culture more about the sharing of ideas > and the > competition of ideas than about the selling of ideas. > > While Kay is a product, very much, of the corporate world - Apple, > Disney, HP. It shows in everything he is about. Now *that* is bordering on FUD. The research of Kay's group always was pretty much independend of their sponsors. Which product of Apple, Disney, or HP is based on Squeak? Uses Etoys? Etc.? The Squeak license was carefully crafted when they were leaving Apple to ensure openness of the base system *even* when your employer is, of all, Disney. Disney as a corporation surely abhors the idea of giving kids a creative tool. Nevertheless, this is precisely what they were working on (actually at Disney Imagineering, which is to Disney Corp. pretty much as Microsoft Research is to Microsoft). Implying that Kay's work as a scientist is somehow against sharing and competition of ideas is an insult. It's not a grass-roots movement like Linux, this is true. But that alone is not enough to put him into the "bad corporate marionette" corner either. You picked the wrong foe. - Bert - From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Jan 19 15:31:26 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 09:31:26 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: <86FC73CD-B45E-4F38-903B-3D9FDEEB32D5@freudenbergs.de> References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> <86FC73CD-B45E-4F38-903B-3D9FDEEB32D5@freudenbergs.de> Message-ID: <45B0D63E.5050004@optonline.com> Bert Freudenberg wrote: > > Implying that Kay's work as a scientist is somehow against sharing > and competition of ideas is an insult. It's not a grass-roots > movement like Linux, this is true. But that alone is not enough to > put him into the "bad corporate marionette" corner either. You picked > the wrong foe. You have "bad corporate marionette" corners, not I. I am a business man. And as I businesman I have never come across such a thing as corporate research group independant of its sponsor. Neither has Kay. Xerox, Apple, Disney and HP. Look at the Xerox story. There is history, and there is history as myth. You want FUD and provocation. I think Kay is managing the mythology around him, and has been from day one. And the fact that I *am* businessman, and *don't* have bad corporate marionette corners in perhaps why I think he is entitled to, and why I am entitled to debunk. Art From bert at freudenbergs.de Fri Jan 19 15:31:34 2007 From: bert at freudenbergs.de (Bert Freudenberg) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:31:34 +0100 (MET) Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> <45B0CC0F.6000406@optonline.com> <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> Message-ID: <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> Am Jan 19, 2007 um 15:16 schrieb Arthur: > Trying to peek below the surface, in the world of productivity, had > and > has a very simple definition: > > Wastng Time. > > There are Computer Guys for that. > > So things lead me to the world of the Computer Guys. And I sometimes > get the impression that is just how they like things to be, and want > things to remain. Then I do not understand at all why you are picking on Kay and Smalltalk/Squeak/Etoys. Peeking under the hood is *precisely* what this is about. In Squeak, you can inspect *every* UI object with a built-in, always-available tool, the "halo". Two clicks later, you're at the code, and if you know what you're doing, you can change every last bit of it, taking effect immediatelty. Now try that in about any other GUI - find the code that's behind *this* button and change it. Good luck. Btw, I hope that we might get a bit closer to this on the OLPC UI - at least it is running in Python, you have that "view source" key on the keyboard, so the necessary ingredients are there. It's just hard to get people to even *imagine* that something this powerful is actually doable. - Bert - From pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com Fri Jan 19 16:11:46 2007 From: pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com (Paul D. Fernhout) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:11:46 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> <45B0CC0F.6000406@optonline.com> <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> Message-ID: <45B0DFB2.7020104@kurtz-fernhout.com> Bert Freudenberg wrote: > Btw, I hope that we might get a bit closer to this on the OLPC UI - > at least it is running in Python, you have that "view source" key on > the keyboard, so the necessary ingredients are there. It's just hard > to get people to even *imagine* that something this powerful is > actually doable. While it is not progressing at the moment, check out the PataPata environment for Python I developed to see what is at least a proof-of-concept of this level of interaction in Python. http://patapata.sourceforge.net/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/patapata http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=165910 It allows one to browse and modify the code of a running world of objects (using either tk or Swing as the interface). The screencasts done by Francois Schnell showes an earlier version in action, see for example: http://francois.schnell.googlepages.com/patapata or: http://showmedo.com/videos/video?name=patapata_tkinter1_fSchnell I think if I took PataPata further, I might de-emphasize the prototype-oriented aspect of it in favor of classes, while still trying to retain PataPata's capability of having an "image" or "world of live objects" stored as Python scripts that rebuild the objects of interest. I would certainly emphasize any changes to Python needed to easily debug into a function, change it, and restart it (which is at the core of a lot of Smalltalk productivity). I had earlier made support for that for plain Python (mostly in Jython, posted to that list) but it would be nice to see such support much better integrated into the base Python -- as a PEP perhaps? (And this suport is a lot more fine-grained than module reloading...) I think making easy and widely available this support for easy debugging into a function and changing it and restarting all in a still running application would be of great value to anyone learning through tinkering with a Python-powered application (like an educational simulation). And it would increase Python programmer productivity when developing medium to large applications probably by a factor of at least 2X or 3X. --Paul Fernhout From pchase at sulross.edu Fri Jan 19 17:28:16 2007 From: pchase at sulross.edu (Peter Chase) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:28:16 -0600 Subject: [Edu-sig] [BULK] Re: Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> Message-ID: <45B0F1A0.9090604@sulross.edu> kirby urner wrote: > Title "Have xBase > Will Travel" -- to Bhutan even, both solo and later with my > wife, Dawn Wicca, and her/our young Alexia (1980s). > > Uh, Kirby, have you focused on your wife's last name? Maybe you should be careful with your fingernail clippings and the hair in your hairbrush. And those herbs in the kitchen... --A Friend From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 18:32:33 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 09:32:33 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] [BULK] Re: Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: <45B0F1A0.9090604@sulross.edu> References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0F1A0.9090604@sulross.edu> Message-ID: On 1/19/07, Peter Chase wrote: > kirby urner wrote: > > > Title "Have xBase > > Will Travel" -- to Bhutan even, both solo and later with my > > wife, Dawn Wicca, and her/our young Alexia (1980s). > > > > > Uh, Kirby, have you focused on your wife's last name? Nope, never, not in over twenty years. > Maybe you should > be careful with your fingernail clippings and the hair in your > hairbrush. And those herbs in the kitchen... > > --A Friend I taught her all she knows (just kidding). Kirby From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 18:43:36 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 09:43:36 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] OLPC vs. CP4E Message-ID: To further clarify the difference between OLPC and CP4E, I think the latter is much more willing to focus on living *in* your computing environment, such that the screens and speakers are integral within a media center that *is* also your house, and it's not like we don't eat, sleep and so on here as well. The Garden of Eden dome is currently a pillowdome with Tefzel pillows (J. Baldwin), with the freestanding structures in a garden or permaculture green house. I realize that's not what every one would want, but that's sort of the base object or template (the class). You can subclass from there to get most of our other options. In other words, instead of a DynaBook, we're into a DynaDome, have been for decades (check the literature). Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Jan 19 19:16:44 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 18:16:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> <45B0CC0F.6000406@optonline.com> <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> Message-ID: Bert Freudenberg wrote: > Am Jan 19, 2007 um 15:16 schrieb Arthur: > > Then I do not understand at all why you are picking on Kay and > Smalltalk/Squeak/Etoys. Peeking under the hood is *precisely* what > this is about. In Squeak, you can inspect *every* UI object with a > built-in, always-available tool, the "halo". Two clicks later, you're > at the code, and if you know what you're doing, you can change every > last bit of it, taking effect immediatelty. Now try that in about any > other GUI - find the code that's behind *this* button and change it. > Good luck. > In a world of ubiquitous Smalltalk there might be some sense to this story. Though I have never been motivated to follow that vision very far down its road. If I was forced to consider a ubiqitous something, and the decision was mine, and I would look at it carefully ;) But since the world of ubiqituous anything is not the world I live in, or want to live in, nor thinkwe should pretending there is, I dispute that Smalltalk/Squeak/Etoys visiion is one that offers transparency in any meaningful sense. I consider Pata/Pata, for example, an implementation of the Squeak vision of transparency, as a "for example". Very quirky vision. Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 20:52:58 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 11:52:58 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> <45B0CC0F.6000406@optonline.com> <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> Message-ID: On 1/19/07, ajsiegel at optonline.net wrote: > In a world of ubiquitous Smalltalk there might be some sense to this story. > Though I have never been motivated to follow that vision very far > down its road. > To Alan's credit, he long ago realized SmallTalk was not about to take the world by storm, *nor should it* i.e. it was a good first stab at something (helped give OO its first legs). Many a 2nd rate scholar would coast on what little in the way of a following Squeak/SmallTalk/Etoys has recruiting through the years, and keep riding that into the ground. Alan the Smalltalk Slayer, doesn't do that, which to me bespeaks a still nimble mind. He walks a tough talk. I think it's important to distinguish between Alan Kay himself, and those in his wake who still think SmallTalk is poised to make a come back (if "come back" is a word that applies). This goes to our earlier "dead languages" thread, which is actually a very interesting topic. Just because a language is "dead" doesn't mean it's no longer used or that we can't use new talent. On the contrary, ancient Sumerian is dead and you still can get lots of kudos and gigs if you learn it. Any volunteers to learn M? There're jobs at the VA they tell me. http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2006-September/006962.html Kirby From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 22:14:44 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:14:44 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] OLPC vs. CP4E In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: More remarks in my blog along these lines (with hyperlinks): http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2007/01/cp4e-versus-olpc.html Kirby On 1/19/07, kirby urner wrote: > To further clarify the difference between OLPC and CP4E, I think > the latter is much more willing to focus on living *in* your computing > environment, such that the screens and speakers are integral within > a media center that *is* also your house, and it's not like we don't > eat, sleep and so on here as well. The Garden of Eden dome is > currently a pillowdome with Tefzel pillows (J. Baldwin), with the > freestanding structures in a garden or permaculture green house. > I realize that's not what every one would want, but that's sort of the > base object or template (the class). You can subclass from there > to get most of our other options. In other words, instead of a DynaBook, > we're into a DynaDome, have been for decades (check the literature). > > Kirby > From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Jan 19 22:29:27 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:29:27 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> <45B0CC0F.6000406@optonline.com> <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> Message-ID: <45B13837.1070306@optonline.com> kirby urner wrote: > > Alan the Smalltalk Slayer, doesn't do that, which to me bespeaks > a still nimble mind. He walks a tough talk. You are giving me Alan's rap. Like you practice your rap. He talks a tough walk. Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 23:11:53 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 14:11:53 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: <45B13837.1070306@optonline.com> References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> <45B0CC0F.6000406@optonline.com> <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> <45B13837.1070306@optonline.com> Message-ID: On 1/19/07, Arthur wrote: > kirby urner wrote: > > > > > Alan the Smalltalk Slayer, doesn't do that, which to me bespeaks > > a still nimble mind. He walks a tough talk. > > You are giving me Alan's rap. Like you practice your rap. > So? What's wrong with practicing and/or sharing raps? Don't you have a rap? No need to practice? I like the way doctors and lawyers talk about "having a practice" as in "what else would one have?" A gaggle of geese. A practice of doctors. > He talks a tough walk. > > Art Anyway, what's the motivation have all of us come to any one unified opinion about this Alan Kay character? None, right? We each have our stories at the end of the day. What's important is to get on with CP4E and/or OLPC or whatever we're calling it. You distrust the crassly commercial. I think academics might be missing the boat. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Jan 19 23:50:49 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 17:50:49 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> <45B0CC0F.6000406@optonline.com> <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> <45B13837.1070306@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45B14B49.5050603@optonline.com> kirby urner wrote: > > You distrust the crassly commercial. I think academics might > be missing the boat. It's not a question, in my mind, as to who is or is not missing the boat. It is matter of process. The academic world has a well-vetted tradition in which to fit inquiry and the exploration of ideas of the kinds that are important here. It has evolved as it has evolved. If it could have evolved to have been less imperfect I see no systemic reason it would not have done so. It is less imperfect than alternatives I see. To assault this tradition in the name of geek culture is immature. To, as a teacher, attract the immature by being as they is irresponsible. Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 00:43:51 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:43:51 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: <45B14B49.5050603@optonline.com> References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> <45B0CC0F.6000406@optonline.com> <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> <45B13837.1070306@optonline.com> <45B14B49.5050603@optonline.com> Message-ID: > To assault this tradition in the name of geek culture is immature. > Dunno why you say "assault." Geek culture contributes to academia, is contributed to by academia, but is not synonymous with it -- otherwise the word'd be too redundant to keep alive. But it ("geek") seems to serve a purpose. I like the circusy origins. We've always had wandering caravans, not settled in any particular tower, ivory or otherwise. The people in them aren't necessarily unwise or inexperienced. > To, as a teacher, attract the immature by being as they is irresponsible. > > Art You haven't justified "assault". As a very academic type geek, I don't sense I've betrayed my University, nor 1879 Hall in particular. My standards have always been high. Kirby From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 05:25:39 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 20:25:39 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] OT: calculating dodeca icosa solid assembly angles In-Reply-To: References: <45B01770.9080004@nomadics.org> Message-ID: > For the icosahedron, I think you should focus on the 20 almost-regular > tetrahedra, with slices parallel to the bases (the 20 facets) defining the > thin outer shell of your handsome wooden and/or plastic casement. > I could do the same for the pentagonal dodeca if you like. Here's a start, but I end with a subtle bug, with discussion: >>> from rbf import Pentdodeca >>> mypd = Pentdodeca() >>> mypd.vertices {'a': vector(-0.5, 0.5, 0.5), 'c': vector(0.5, -0.5, 0.5), 'b': vector(0.5, 0.5, 0.5), 'e': vector(-0.5, 0.5, -0.5), 'd': vector(-0.5, -0.5, 0.5), 'g': vector(0.5, -0.5, -0.5), 'f': vector(-0.5, -0.5, -0.5), 'i': vector(0.309016994374947, 0, 0.809016994374947), 'h': vector(0.5, 0.5, -0.5), 'k': vector(0, 0.809016994374947, 0.309016994374947), 'j': vector(-0.309016994374947, 0, 0.809016994374947), 'm': vector(-0.809016994374947, 0.309016994374947, 0), 'l': vector(0, 0.809016994374947, -0.309016994374947), 'o': vector(0.809016994374947, 0.309016994374947, 0), 'n': vector(-0.809016994374947, -0.309016994374947, 0), 'q': vector(0, -0.809016994374947, 0.309016994374947), 'p': vector(0.809016994374947, -0.309016994374947, 0), 's': vector(0.309016994374947, 0, -0.809016994374947), 'r': vector(0, -0.809016994374947, -0.309016994374947), 't': vector(-0.309016994374947, 0, -0.809016994374947)} >>> mypd.faces [('o', 'p', 'c', 'i', 'b'), ('r', 'f', 'n', 'd', 'q'), ('n', 'f', 't', 'e', 'm'), ('e', 'l', 'k', 'a', 'm'), ('j', 'a', 'k', 'b', 'i'), ('q', 'd', 'j', 'i', 'c'), ('j', 'd', 'n', 'm', 'a'), ('p', 'g', 'r', 'q', 'c'), ('g', 's', 't', 'f', 'r'), ('k', 'l', 'h', 'o', 'b'), ('h', 'l', 'e', 't', 's'), ('h', 's', 'g', 'p', 'o')] >>> def addvects(shape, thelist): total = shape.vertices[thelist[0]] for vertex in thelist[1:]: total += shape.vertices[vertex] return total >>> altitude = addvects(mypd, ('o', 'p', 'c', 'i', 'b')) What you might not get from the above addvects, is that it messes with the actual vertex 'o' inside of mypd. This is because "to assign" means "to share a pointer with" (thus upping the reference count, staving off garbage collection). So in passing the polyhedron itself as the first parameter, and referencing into it with the first letter (string), makes 'total' subject to rebinding. With successive additions of vectors 'p', 'c', 'i' and 'b', the vector named 'o' gets updated. An ugly solution would be to do something with 'copy'. Copy has been tucked away in a separate module to make it less tempting. Better to think *with* the shared reference model than against it. A better solution would be to initialize 'total' as a fresh zero vector. Kirby From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 05:39:12 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 20:39:12 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] OT: calculating dodeca icosa solid assembly angles In-Reply-To: References: <45B01770.9080004@nomadics.org> Message-ID: > So ... passing the polyhedron itself as the first > parameter, and referencing into it with the first > letter (string), makes 'total' subject to rebinding. > With successive additions of vectors 'p', 'c', 'i' > and 'b', the vector named 'o' gets updated. To illustrate further: >>> newpd = Pentdodeca() >>> newpd.vertices['o'] vector(0.809016994374947, 0.309016994374947, 0) >>> def addvects(shape, thelist): total = shape.vertices[thelist[0]] for vertex in thelist[1:]: total += shape.vertices[vertex] return total >>> altitude = addvects(newpd, ('o', 'p', 'c', 'i', 'b')) >>> newpd.vertices['o'] vector(2.92705098312484, 0, 1.80901699437495) I'd consider this a bug. Also, we really need to go altitude = (1/5.0)*altitude if proceeding on the analogy of what we did for the tetrahedron guy. Then compute sideline as (1/2) of adjacent vertices, subtract the degree angle twixt sideline and altitude from 90 degrees to get the "bevel angle" (defined in terms of the a lid of the casement and its dihedral with a rib, where they meet mid edge). Kirby From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 06:08:24 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 21:08:24 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] OT: calculating dodeca icosa solid assembly angles In-Reply-To: References: <45B01770.9080004@nomadics.org> Message-ID: > I'd consider this a bug. > Not in Python mind you. In my logic, given the rules. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Jan 20 15:24:21 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:24:21 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> <45B0CC0F.6000406@optonline.com> <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> <45B13837.1070306@optonline.com> <45B14B49.5050603@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45B22615.7090408@optonline.com> kirby urner wrote: >> To assault this tradition in the name of geek culture is immature. >> > > Dunno why you say "assault." Geek culture contributes to academia, is > contributed to by academia, but is not synonymous with it -- otherwise > the word'd be too redundant to keep alive. Enjoyed following the story of Coxeter (Cambridge, Princeton, U of Toronto), and/vs Bucky (unaffiliated), followed initially from your blog. Recognize the clash of sensibilities some. And the side story: Seems that we might have more domes around if Bucky had more of an OpenSoruce sensibility and hadn't patented the triangle ;) And I suspect you might be less hostile sounding to academia if you were not incited by its inability to get to 4 when counting the dimension of apparent space. Let it go. Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 18:13:46 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:13:46 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: <45B22615.7090408@optonline.com> References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> <45B13837.1070306@optonline.com> <45B14B49.5050603@optonline.com> <45B22615.7090408@optonline.com> Message-ID: On 1/20/07, Arthur wrote: > kirby urner wrote: > >> To assault this tradition in the name of geek culture is immature. > >> > > > > Dunno why you say "assault." Geek culture contributes to academia, is > > contributed to by academia, but is not synonymous with it -- otherwise > > the word'd be too redundant to keep alive. > > Enjoyed following the story of Coxeter (Cambridge, Princeton, U of > Toronto), and/vs Bucky (unaffiliated), followed initially from your > blog. Recognize the clash of sensibilities some. > > And the side story: > > Seems that we might have more domes around if Bucky had more of an > OpenSoruce sensibility and hadn't patented the triangle ;) > > And I suspect you might be less hostile sounding to academia if you were > not incited by its inability to get to 4 when counting the dimension of > apparent space. > > Let it go. > > Art > Inability to get *under* 4 very easily... But yes, you're a top dog analyst and I like getting your viewpoint. I hope you stick around. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Jan 20 23:28:56 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 17:28:56 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> <45B13837.1070306@optonline.com> <45B14B49.5050603@optonline.com> <45B22615.7090408@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45B297A8.4010405@optonline.com> kirby urner wrote: > > Inability to get *under* 4 very easily... I mean to get around to trying the 4 view on for size. But in my world where regularity is a corner case, it might put me over the edge of the world and it will be on your conscience ;) Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Jan 21 15:25:42 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 09:25:42 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: <45B0DFB2.7020104@kurtz-fernhout.com> References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> <45B0CC0F.6000406@optonline.com> <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> <45B0DFB2.7020104@kurtz-fernhout.com> Message-ID: <45B377E6.3070908@optonline.com> Paul D. Fernhout wrote: > > I think making easy and widely available this support for easy debugging > into a function and changing it and restarting all in a still running > application would be of great value to anyone learning through tinkering > with a Python-powered application (like an educational simulation). And it > would increase Python programmer productivity when developing medium to > large applications probably by a factor of at least 2X or 3X. The interest in Python for the Squeak folks seems only that there is a larger and more dynamic community of folks devoted to its use and continued development. Somehow. The possibility that you should as a consequence transition, while here, to learning mode from teaching mode might, I would think might, occur to you. But you are in a community that accepts the rejection of empiricism, so I guess there is some amount of consistency in point-of-view. By all means, write the PEP. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Jan 21 18:04:09 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 12:04:09 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Coxeter Theory: The Cognitive Aspects Message-ID: <45B39D09.6040004@optonline.com> Speaking of Coxeter, teaching, learning, cognition, computers, GUIs the thoughts of a mathematics educator: Coxeter Theory: The Cognitive Aspects http://www.maths.manchester.ac.uk/~avb/pdf/coxeter.pdf Evenhanded enough. """ Section 10 Parsing, continued: do brackets matter? """ discusses some of what the author learned from the "progress" when the software he had used to teach grew a GUI interface. PyGeo has no option to create constructions via a GUI. If it did, it would be used, and any possible benefit that might be attained by using the software would be sabotaged. The reason I get crazy and make 17 consecutive posts in a row is that in fact I *am* an amateur in every sense of the word. The things that I am obsessed with not having swept under a rug are not things that are difficult or esoteric. They are there. They have mass. You can kick them. Ignoring them takes convolution. Too what end are we twisting things into knots? Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sun Jan 21 19:37:19 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:37:19 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Coxeter Theory: The Cognitive Aspects In-Reply-To: <45B39D09.6040004@optonline.com> References: <45B39D09.6040004@optonline.com> Message-ID: On 1/21/07, Arthur wrote: > Speaking of Coxeter, teaching, learning, cognition, computers, GUIs > > the thoughts of a mathematics educator: > > Coxeter Theory: The Cognitive Aspects > > http://www.maths.manchester.ac.uk/~avb/pdf/coxeter.pdf > > Evenhanded enough. Hey awesome paper, a definite keeper, thanks. Very Godel Escher Bachian in places. Reminds of Jay Kappraff's stuff as well (NJIT guy, never met even though lived in nearby Jersey City for a spell, had early intercourse with Network Nation's early infrastructure (Network Nation was an influential book)). In Bucky World, we start with some reflections in XYZ, of a MITE in one octant, eight of which (reflections + original) = One Coupler, a spacefilling unit of volume for us. Kirby From bert at freudenbergs.de Sun Jan 21 20:40:15 2007 From: bert at freudenbergs.de (Bert Freudenberg) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 20:40:15 +0100 (MET) Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: <45B377E6.3070908@optonline.com> References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> <45B0CC0F.6000406@optonline.com> <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> <45B0DFB2.7020104@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45B377E6.3070908@optonline.com> Message-ID: Am Jan 21, 2007 um 15:25 schrieb Arthur: > Paul D. Fernhout wrote: >> >> I think making easy and widely available this support for easy >> debugging >> into a function and changing it and restarting all in a still running >> application would be of great value to anyone learning through >> tinkering >> with a Python-powered application (like an educational >> simulation). And it >> would increase Python programmer productivity when developing >> medium to >> large applications probably by a factor of at least 2X or 3X. > > The interest in Python for the Squeak folks seems only that there is a > larger and more dynamic community of folks devoted to its use and > continued development. Actually, Squeak folks do fine. They're not flocking to Python, even though Paul (unfortunatly for us) left a few years ago. You may be confusing Alan Kay's reaching out to the Python community with what the Squeak community does. Two very different pairs of shoes. > Somehow. > > The possibility that you should as a consequence transition, while > here, > to learning mode from teaching mode might, I would think might, > occur to > you. We all are learners. I actually enjoy reading and learn from many of your posts. Likewise, the possibility that what Paul writes from his experience might actually be something for you to learn. I know it's hard to appreciate the advantages of a fully interactive and reflexive system unless you have actually used one. Paul has. > But you are in a community that accepts the rejection of > empiricism, so > I guess there is some amount of consistency in point-of-view. Repeating this over and over does not actually make it true. People in OLPC have been empirically studying working with kids and computers longer than anyone else. - Bert - From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Jan 21 21:46:28 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 15:46:28 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> <45B0CC0F.6000406@optonline.com> <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> <45B0DFB2.7020104@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45B377E6.3070908@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45B3D124.50800@optonline.com> Bert Freudenberg wrote: > > Actually, Squeak folks do fine. They're not flocking to Python, even > though Paul (unfortunatly for us) left a few years ago. You may be > confusing Alan Kay's reaching out to the Python community with what > the Squeak community does. >Two very different pairs of shoes. Heartening to hear. > > Repeating this over and over does not actually make it true. People > in OLPC have been empirically studying working with kids and > computers longer than anyone else. I have looked. But I have not found. I think what there is what comes after an acceptance - a radical acceptance - of ideas of technological determinism. Fine-tuning the inevitable. I like geometry, and now architectures can be built from a few axioms. Here it happens to matter, a lot, whether those axioms are true, and how true. I haven't seen that work, Sorry. I should get along great with Paul. I happen to be a big unschooling guy myself. I encouraged it for my own son, after school. Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sun Jan 21 23:03:49 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 14:03:49 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: <45B3D124.50800@optonline.com> References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> <45B0CC0F.6000406@optonline.com> <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> <45B0DFB2.7020104@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45B377E6.3070908@optonline.com> <45B3D124.50800@optonline.com> Message-ID: On 1/21/07, Arthur wrote: > I think what there is what comes after an acceptance - a radical > acceptance - of ideas of technological determinism. Fine-tuning the > inevitable. I think in the 1960s there might have been some determinism around a revolution, but when that didn't pan out, you have lots of nostalgia for "might have been futures", forking off from promising trends in the 1970s. By the 1980s, with the K-12 math writers pretty much turning their backs on computer languages, we're talking disaster zone and oblivion. Now I sense a contingent waiting in the wings, deus ex machina, willing to at least stage a comeback of computer languages in math teaching. But it's not so much SmallTalk behind the scenes as it used to be, if it ever was. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Jan 21 23:54:43 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 17:54:43 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0C352.3090503@optonline.com> <45B0CC0F.6000406@optonline.com> <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> <45B0DFB2.7020104@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45B377E6.3070908@optonline.com> <45B3D124.50800@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45B3EF33.8020704@optonline.com> kirby urner wrote: > Now I sense a contingent waiting in the wings, deus ex machina, willing > to at least stage a comeback of computer languages in math teaching. If and when the modest ideas of modest people can get heard. Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 00:03:58 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 15:03:58 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation In-Reply-To: <45B3EF33.8020704@optonline.com> References: <21B2B8CF-C550-4465-BB33-76AA5D2CEEE2@sfu.ca> <45B0CC0F.6000406@optonline.com> <45B0D2AE.1000900@optonline.com> <7177EA88-A795-4884-B1BA-A07474129272@freudenbergs.de> <45B0DFB2.7020104@kurtz-fernhout.com> <45B377E6.3070908@optonline.com> <45B3D124.50800@optonline.com> <45B3EF33.8020704@optonline.com> Message-ID: > If and when the modest ideas of modest people can get heard. > > Art > Tick tick tick... [nothing happening]. Hmmmm, seems to be a pattern here. :-D More open source analysis you might enjoy: http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2007/01/surveying-scene-synergeo-32124.html Kirby From kirby.urner at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 18:24:03 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 09:24:03 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Vpython -> video file on WinXP? Message-ID: So far, my trials with trial versions have proved unsuccessful. The opening frame of a VPython cartoon appears, but as changes to the picture occur, these fail to register with the vid-capturing software, regardless of selected frame rate. Maybe someone here has experience with this? If I find a solution, I will post it here also. My goal is to get my Hypertoons showcased on Youtube, other vids to follow. Kirby From kirby.urner at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 18:30:12 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 09:30:12 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Vpython -> video file on WinXP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My apologies, I should have checked the VPython FAQ first. http://www.vpython.org/FAQ.html Still, if anyone has a favorite solution, including one of those recommended in the FAQ, I'd welcome some clues. Kirby On 1/23/07, kirby urner wrote: > So far, my trials with trial versions have > proved unsuccessful. The opening frame > of a VPython cartoon appears, but as > changes to the picture occur, these > fail to register with the vid-capturing > software, regardless of selected frame > rate. > > Maybe someone here has experience > with this? If I find a solution, I will post > it here also. My goal is to get my > Hypertoons showcased on Youtube, > other vids to follow. > > Kirby > From kirby.urner at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 19:32:08 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:32:08 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Vpython -> video file on WinXP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, it's not YouTube yet, but still worth a look if you're into this kind of stuff. A rather large file but it starts streaming in Flash to give you something to fuss at while it finishes. http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/python/hypertoons/HypertoonCity/HypertoonCity.html Kirby On 1/23/07, kirby urner wrote: > My apologies, I should have checked the VPython FAQ first. > http://www.vpython.org/FAQ.html > > Still, if anyone has a favorite solution, including one of those > recommended in the FAQ, I'd welcome some clues. > > Kirby > > > On 1/23/07, kirby urner wrote: > > So far, my trials with trial versions have > > proved unsuccessful. The opening frame > > of a VPython cartoon appears, but as > > changes to the picture occur, these > > fail to register with the vid-capturing > > software, regardless of selected frame > > rate. > > > > Maybe someone here has experience > > with this? If I find a solution, I will post > > it here also. My goal is to get my > > Hypertoons showcased on Youtube, > > other vids to follow. > > > > Kirby > > > From kirby.urner at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 00:31:17 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:31:17 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Vpython -> video file on WinXP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/23/07, kirby urner wrote: > Well, it's not YouTube yet... And now it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Qzd0Uw-HCM 40 seconds, no sound. Camtasia Studio seems to be good tool for this job. Kirby From kirby.urner at gmail.com Thu Jan 25 02:57:28 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:57:28 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] GUI previews, other looking ahead Message-ID: Prototype GUI: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ODskdEPnQ (cute, but too narrowly focused on a few desktop operations) More the current state of the art for today's geeks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lawkc3jH3ws (kinda hyper) My evolving stump speech: http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=5498511&tstart=0 (no visuals) Vista preview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lh-AJS8sC8 (lotsa gadgets, pandering to "consumers") Kirby From peter at mapledesign.co.uk Thu Jan 25 11:05:49 2007 From: peter at mapledesign.co.uk (Peter Bowyer) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:05:49 +0000 Subject: [Edu-sig] GUI previews, other looking ahead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070125100533.035f2798@mapledesign.co.uk> At 01:57 25/01/2007, kirby urner wrote: >More the current state of the art for today's geeks: >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lawkc3jH3ws >(kinda hyper) And the state of the art for the future(?): http://brilliantdays.com/multi-touch/ Peter -- Maple Design - Web design and application development http://www.mapledesign.co.uk +44 (0)845 123 8008 From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Jan 25 13:54:55 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:54:55 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] GUI previews, other looking ahead In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070125100533.035f2798@mapledesign.co.uk> References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070125100533.035f2798@mapledesign.co.uk> Message-ID: <45B8A89F.4020700@optonline.com> Peter Bowyer wrote: > At 01:57 25/01/2007, kirby urner wrote: > >>More the current state of the art for today's geeks: >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lawkc3jH3ws >>(kinda hyper) > > > And the state of the art for the future(?): > http://brilliantdays.com/multi-touch/ My favorite quote: "There is actually a lot of math going on behind the scenes" So that's how they do it. Tricky ;) Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Thu Jan 25 16:30:04 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:30:04 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] OSCON 2005 talk (retrospective) Message-ID: ICYC (in case you're curious)... I went back and reviewed my entire OSCON 2005 talk in just 4 minutes in this just uploaded and blogged Google Video: http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2007/01/reviewing-my-oscon-2005-talk.html The Python angle is the presentation manager I'm showing I wrote on top of Pygame. Plus a lot of the graphics were generated with Python + POV-Ray (even Jython played a role). Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Thu Jan 25 17:32:35 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:32:35 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] OSCON 2005 talk (retrospective) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45B8DBA3.1080907@optonline.com> kirby urner wrote: > ICYC (in case you're curious)... > > I went back and reviewed my entire OSCON 2005 talk in just 4 minutes in > this just uploaded and blogged Google Video: You attending PyCon2007? Regrettably I am not. It came down to an matter of wardrobe. Always feeling it important to be appropriate, I realized that I no longer have the proper attire in which to attend an eLearning keynote. Things wear thin after some time. Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Thu Jan 25 18:03:13 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:03:13 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] OSCON 2005 talk (retrospective) In-Reply-To: <45B8DBA3.1080907@optonline.com> References: <45B8DBA3.1080907@optonline.com> Message-ID: > You attending PyCon2007? > > Regrettably I am not. > I sort of regret it too. Making do with that "virtual keynote", whatever screencasts. > It came down to an matter of wardrobe. > > Always feeling it important to be appropriate, I realized that I no > longer have the proper attire in which to attend an eLearning keynote. > > Things wear thin after some time. > > Art I have a huge wardrobe of irrelevant clothing. Plus some that matches my mood. Kirby From kirby.urner at gmail.com Thu Jan 25 22:14:36 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:14:36 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) Message-ID: So here're two simple vids, under 7 mins total, that I'm using to pitch Python to math teachers. Think of it as a new "blend" of ethnicities (more geek mixed in but still recognizably mathematical). http://controlroom.blogspot.com/2007/01/python-for-math-teachers.html Not high budget or anything. I want a typical viewer to think "wait a minute, I could do this too, and probably better than he does." Kirby From jeff at taupro.com Fri Jan 26 05:22:49 2007 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:22:49 -0600 Subject: [Edu-sig] OSCON 2005 talk (retrospective) In-Reply-To: <45B8DBA3.1080907@optonline.com> References: <45B8DBA3.1080907@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45B98219.7060808@taupro.com> Arthur wrote: > kirby urner wrote: >> ICYC (in case you're curious)... >> >> I went back and reviewed my entire OSCON 2005 talk in just 4 minutes in >> this just uploaded and blogged Google Video: > > You attending PyCon2007? > > Regrettably I am not. > > It came down to an matter of wardrobe. > > Always feeling it important to be appropriate, I realized that I no > longer have the proper attire in which to attend an eLearning keynote. > > Things wear thin after some time. It's a shame you are not attending PyCon this year. I would like to have met you and discussed education matters in a more communicative media than email. Me thinks your wardrobe is a bit like the Emperor's New Clothes, not thin from time. ;-) -Jeff From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Jan 26 13:38:18 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:38:18 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] OSCON 2005 talk (retrospective) In-Reply-To: <45B98219.7060808@taupro.com> References: <45B8DBA3.1080907@optonline.com> <45B98219.7060808@taupro.com> Message-ID: <45B9F63A.2080309@optonline.com> Jeff Rush wrote: > It's a shame you are not attending PyCon this year. I would like to > have met you and discussed education matters in a more communicative > media than email. Me thinks your wardrobe is a bit like the Emperor's > New Clothes, not thin from time. ;-) If it were that thin you wouldn't be missing much. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Jan 26 14:50:56 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:50:56 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45BA0740.4000206@optonline.com> kirby urner wrote: > > Not high budget or anything. I want a typical viewer to think > "wait a minute, I could do this too, and probably better than he does." How different would they look if that was not the effect you were going for ;) Kidding aside, I think you are touching on something important in this point. But in the end I think the written word will remain indefinitely the most level playing field, and - largely because of this fact - the most potent medium for the communication of ideas. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Jan 26 15:24:31 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:24:31 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: <45BA0740.4000206@optonline.com> References: <45BA0740.4000206@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45BA0F1F.50701@optonline.com> Arthur wrote: > > Kidding aside, I think you are touching on something important in this > point. > > But in the end I think the written word will remain indefinitely the > most level playing field, and - largely because of this fact - the most > potent medium for the communication of ideas. The more direct and on-topic point is that, yes, it is impossible to correlate technical depth with anything related to education outside of narrow limits of that technical depth - and even then it is touchy. This seems obvious. Except now. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Jan 26 15:58:15 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:58:15 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: <45BA0F1F.50701@optonline.com> References: <45BA0740.4000206@optonline.com> <45BA0F1F.50701@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45BA1707.3030309@optonline.com> Arthur wrote: > The more direct and on-topic point is that, yes, it is impossible to > correlate technical depth with anything related to education outside of > narrow limits of that technical depth - and even then it is touchy. > > This seems obvious. > > Except now. And within this, I think picking on children as a target is particularly problematic - precisely because expertise in the subject of the education of children is so hard to evaluate. Anyone can claim it. Even computer programmers. Art From krstic at solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu Fri Jan 26 16:25:17 2007 From: krstic at solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu (=?UTF-8?B?SXZhbiBLcnN0acSH?=) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:25:17 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: <45BA1707.3030309@optonline.com> References: <45BA0740.4000206@optonline.com> <45BA0F1F.50701@optonline.com> <45BA1707.3030309@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45BA1D5D.50102@solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu> Arthur wrote: > And within this, I think picking on children as a target is particularly > problematic - precisely because expertise in the subject of the > education of children is so hard to evaluate. Anyone can claim it. Even > computer programmers. If you're willing to discuss "picking on children," I think your best bet is to throw on a pair of jeans and a T-shirt and show up at PyCon, any offense to your fashion sense notwithstanding. I can't speak for the other two speakers, but I won't be talking about eLearning at all. Won't even mention it, really. -- Ivan Krsti? | GPG: 0x147C722D From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Jan 26 16:29:10 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:29:10 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: <45BA1707.3030309@optonline.com> References: <45BA0740.4000206@optonline.com> <45BA0F1F.50701@optonline.com> <45BA1707.3030309@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45BA1E46.2020903@optonline.com> Arthur wrote: > And within this, I think picking on children as a target is particularly > problematic - precisely because expertise in the subject of the > education of children is so hard to evaluate. Anyone can claim it. Even > computer programmers. Piaget is a theorist. Let's assume an excellent theorist. Let's assume the best there is. The leap that the computer is somehow central to an implementation of his ideas is an unnecessary, arbitrary, and somehow generally accepted leap. Very strange to me. It would seem to be more reasonable to start with a working assumption that in working with children we should be working with materials and objects that have immediacy and obviousness that computers do not and cannot have. To think that it is just a matter of rigging the interface correctly and it is all win/win form there - the word ridiculous happens to work for me. As with all matters with children, I claim no particular expertise. And am willing to be wrong. That is different from being willing to shut up until I am given a good reason to conclude that I am wrong. Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Jan 26 16:56:56 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:56:56 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: <45BA1E46.2020903@optonline.com> References: <45BA0740.4000206@optonline.com> <45BA0F1F.50701@optonline.com> <45BA1707.3030309@optonline.com> <45BA1E46.2020903@optonline.com> Message-ID: > It would seem to be more reasonable to start with a working assumption > that in working with children we should be working with materials and > objects that have immediacy and obviousness that computers do not and > cannot have. I think we could start with that assumption, yes. Young children need to be developing gross and fine motor skills, becoming coordinated in more important ways than sitting in front of a computer. Learning to walk, learning to run, that sort of thing (play ball, tie shoe laces...). My three videos synch at a different level. I'm presuming junior is ready for my Monkey and Dog talk because it's time for algebra already, and we're teaching the GCD, prime versus composite, other such concepts *already* at that age. And by now I think it's a waste of time and a disservice to them to not start with a computer language of some variety. In geek culture anyway, the computer is like the piano forte was (is?) to those Vienna types in whatever golden age. If you had any aspirations to being a part of "the scene" you needed some musical instrument skills. Plus you want to start exposure young enough to see if you have some child prodigies. You can't have child prodigies if you keep the computer locked up until they have beards. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Fri Jan 26 17:26:47 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:26:47 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: References: <45BA0740.4000206@optonline.com> <45BA0F1F.50701@optonline.com> <45BA1707.3030309@optonline.com> <45BA1E46.2020903@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45BA2BC7.4010802@optonline.com> kirby urner wrote: > Plus you want to start exposure young enough to see if you have some > child prodigies. You can't have child prodigies if you keep the computer > locked up until they have beards. I am not proposing keeping it locked up. I am making the modest proposal that we keep it in perspective. Do I have a problem with Squeak?? Not in the least. It would be inconsistent with everything I am trying to say to have a problem with a piece of software, especially one that is technically interesting by just about everyone's assessment. I have a problem with overreaching, Millennialist ideas and claims, Grand Fallooning and etc and etc. It happens, for whatever reason, that happens a lot surrounding Squeak. But it is not Squeak. I like it just as little when it happens surrounding Python, BTW. Art From driscollkevin at gmail.com Fri Jan 26 17:56:03 2007 From: driscollkevin at gmail.com (Kevin Driscoll) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:56:03 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87a8578e0701260856rc8317cdx6723b47a31649db2@mail.gmail.com> Screencasting a pythonic math lesson is a great idea. I think the demos you've posted demonstrate the power of the medium however I fear that it will be intimidating to non-programming math teachers. Perhaps a lesson on function composition would be a better starting place. Something difficult for students to grok that makes a lot of sense in a programming context. Kevin On 1/25/07, kirby urner wrote: > So here're two simple vids, under 7 mins total, that I'm using to > pitch Python to math teachers. > > Think of it as a new "blend" of ethnicities (more geek mixed in > but still recognizably mathematical). > > http://controlroom.blogspot.com/2007/01/python-for-math-teachers.html > > Not high budget or anything. I want a typical viewer to think > "wait a minute, I could do this too, and probably better than he does." > > Kirby > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Jan 26 18:02:32 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:02:32 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: <87a8578e0701260856rc8317cdx6723b47a31649db2@mail.gmail.com> References: <87a8578e0701260856rc8317cdx6723b47a31649db2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/26/07, Kevin Driscoll wrote: > Screencasting a pythonic math lesson is a great idea. I think the > demos you've posted demonstrate the power of the medium however I fear > that it will be intimidating to non-programming math teachers. Oh goody. They've been too slow to adapt anyway. Kirby From driscollkevin at gmail.com Fri Jan 26 18:04:49 2007 From: driscollkevin at gmail.com (Kevin Driscoll) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:04:49 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: References: <87a8578e0701260856rc8317cdx6723b47a31649db2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <87a8578e0701260904h6644e9cbq92036dcadeecc2d1@mail.gmail.com> My students are learning to create screencasts this week as part of a on-going "skillshare" project. Perhaps they can help out next term when they have some more Pythonic Confidence (tm). Kevin On 1/26/07, kirby urner wrote: > On 1/26/07, Kevin Driscoll wrote: > > Screencasting a pythonic math lesson is a great idea. I think the > > demos you've posted demonstrate the power of the medium however I fear > > that it will be intimidating to non-programming math teachers. > > Oh goody. > > They've been too slow to adapt anyway. > > Kirby > From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Jan 26 23:26:27 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:26:27 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: <45BA2BC7.4010802@optonline.com> References: <45BA0740.4000206@optonline.com> <45BA0F1F.50701@optonline.com> <45BA1707.3030309@optonline.com> <45BA1E46.2020903@optonline.com> <45BA2BC7.4010802@optonline.com> Message-ID: On 1/26/07, Arthur wrote: > kirby urner wrote: > > Plus you want to start exposure young enough to see if you have some > > child prodigies. You can't have child prodigies if you keep the computer > > locked up until they have beards. > > I am not proposing keeping it locked up. I am making the modest > proposal that we keep it in perspective. > The *sounds* modest, yes, plus leaves you free to critique any actual implementation of a perspective as immodest. Calling for perspective isn't really doing any work, is just being modest. *Providing* perspectives is the name of the game. > Do I have a problem with Squeak?? Not in the least. It would be > inconsistent with everything I am trying to say to have a problem with a > piece of software, especially one that is technically interesting by > just about everyone's assessment. I have a problem with overreaching, > Millennialist ideas and claims, Grand Fallooning and etc and etc. It > happens, for whatever reason, that happens a lot surrounding Squeak. > But it is not Squeak. And I have a problem with the status quo, 15-18 year olds getting practically zero exposure to geek culture in high school, to where by the time it's time to choose a career, so many are already turned off on that possibility, having absorbed lots of stereotypes, but never any Python. Yet when I teach kids in this age group this stuff, mixed with a lot of math, they often clamor for more (as do their parents, others guardians -- one of the dads sat through much of my last class actually). Geek culture is like a missing ingredient in their diet. Geek culture seems *good* in at least *small* doses. But right now, it's still *no* doses, pretty much across the board. Just a lot of stereotyping, misleading TV and movies. > I like it just as little when it happens surrounding Python, BTW. > > Art And I dislike it surrounding the pontificating used to justify Algebra I, Algebra II, Geometry, Pre-calc, Calc (in whatever order), all undisturbed fossils for the ages, no chance of any Python unless we jump through stupid hoops proving over and over we're not just full of snake oil (got some __ribs__ in here too). No, I prefer to go on the offensive. If we're talking hype, hollowness, stoopid waste of time, it's what's being rammed down their defenseless little throats day in and day out as a matter of unthinking routine. *Un*acceptable to not at least have a real *choice*. As a geek, I'm somewhat militant about it. My ethnicity deserves a place in the sun too. Kirby PS: http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/stickworks.html video has definite sound problems (gets quieter half way through). From jbloodworth at sc.rr.com Sat Jan 27 00:42:40 2007 From: jbloodworth at sc.rr.com (Jay Bloodworth) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:42:40 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Roommate Matching Algorithm Message-ID: <1169854960.3278.213.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi. This is perhaps a bit bit off topic as it is not related to using python for direct teaching and learning, but it is about using python for an actual project in an actual school. I'd like suggestions for an algorithm for "optimally" placing kids in rooming groups for a field study. The data I have for each student is an unordered list of four people he'd like to room with. I don't have a firm definition for "optimal" (open to suggestions), but I'm thinking of something like satisfying the following conditions, in order of priority. 1) Every student rooms with at least one person they requested. 2) The preference graphs for individual rooming groups are as complete as possible, i.e. groups that all mutually request is other should be identified by the algorithm where such exist. I have found several descriptions of matching algorithms on the web, but most have them have been for simply pairing items, not creating larger groups. Also, most assume we have rankings of all the other set members, not just a few identified as preferred. Suggestions? I have a couple of ideas, but I don't want to reinvent the wheel. I can be pretty generous with the definition of optimal - condition 1) is the only thing that is really mandatory. Lest anyone worry that automating this process is too impersonal, we will certainly do a sanity check on any list generated based on our knowledge of the kids, and jigger it where we deem it sensible. Thanks, Jay From andre.roberge at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 00:51:39 2007 From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (Andre Roberge) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 19:51:39 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Roommate Matching Algorithm In-Reply-To: <1169854960.3278.213.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1169854960.3278.213.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <7528bcdd0701261551g124f6972wd17ed6e08e0a9dec@mail.gmail.com> Could you provide a sample data set? Andr? On 1/26/07, Jay Bloodworth wrote: > Hi. This is perhaps a bit bit off topic as it is not related to using > python for direct teaching and learning, but it is about using python > for an actual project in an actual school. > > I'd like suggestions for an algorithm for "optimally" placing kids in > rooming groups for a field study. The data I have for each student is > an unordered list of four people he'd like to room with. I don't have a > firm definition for "optimal" (open to suggestions), but I'm thinking of > something like satisfying the following conditions, in order of > priority. > > 1) Every student rooms with at least one person they requested. > 2) The preference graphs for individual rooming groups are as complete > as possible, i.e. groups that all mutually request is other should be > identified by the algorithm where such exist. > > I have found several descriptions of matching algorithms on the web, but > most have them have been for simply pairing items, not creating larger > groups. Also, most assume we have rankings of all the other set > members, not just a few identified as preferred. > > Suggestions? I have a couple of ideas, but I don't want to reinvent the > wheel. I can be pretty generous with the definition of optimal - > condition 1) is the only thing that is really mandatory. Lest anyone > worry that automating this process is too impersonal, we will certainly > do a sanity check on any list generated based on our knowledge of the > kids, and jigger it where we deem it sensible. > > Thanks, > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Jan 27 01:21:52 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 19:21:52 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: References: <45BA0740.4000206@optonline.com> <45BA0F1F.50701@optonline.com> <45BA1707.3030309@optonline.com> <45BA1E46.2020903@optonline.com> <45BA2BC7.4010802@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45BA9B20.6040005@optonline.com> kirby urner wrote: > > The *sounds* modest, yes, plus leaves you free to critique any actual > implementation of a perspective as immodest. Calling for perspective > isn't really doing any work, is just being modest. *Providing* > perspectives > is the name of the game. PyGeo is interesting work. My efforts to assist in provding VPython a future(lead actually, since no one else has stepped up to the plate) is important work. Immodest enough for you. Feel better. > > Yet when I teach kids in this age group this stuff, mixed with a lot of > math, > they often clamor for more (as do their parents, others guardians -- one of > the dads sat through much of my last class actually). My intuition is that you are an excellent and intuitive teacher. Don't know for sure. > > Geek culture is like a missing ingredient in their diet. Geek culture > seems > *good* in at least *small* doses. But right now, it's still *no* doses, > pretty > much across the board. Just a lot of stereotyping, misleading TV and > movies. > > And I dislike it surrounding the pontificating used to justify Algebra > I, Algebra II, > Geometry, Pre-calc, Calc (in whatever order), all undisturbed fossils > for the ages, > no chance of any Python unless we jump through stupid hoops proving over > and > over we're not just full of snake oil (got some __ribs__ in here too). So much of the Grand Fallooning sounds like snake oil and *is* snake oil, that particularly those trained in mathematics - in the art of plausibility - will react, and over-react. We agree about everything, except that we disagree about everything as well. Art From lang at ms.chinmin.edu.tw Sat Jan 27 01:12:13 2007 From: lang at ms.chinmin.edu.tw (Greg Matheson) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:12:13 +0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Roommate Matching Algorithm In-Reply-To: <1169854960.3278.213.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1169854960.3278.213.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20070127001213.GE9945@ms.chinmin.edu.tw> On Fri, 26 Jan 2007, Jay Bloodworth wrote: > Hi. This is perhaps a bit bit off topic as it is not related to using > python for direct teaching and learning, but it is about using python > for an actual project in an actual school. The topic of classroom-management-related computing needs to be supported, I think. > I'd like suggestions for an algorithm for "optimally" placing kids in > rooming groups for a field study. > I have found several descriptions of matching algorithms on the web, but > most have them have been for simply pairing items, not creating larger > groups. Can you tweak them so that they first pair individuals and then pair pairs? > Also, most assume we have rankings of all the other set > members, not just a few identified as preferred. Do they break if you give all the dispreferred students the same zero? -- Greg Matheson Think globally. Act locally. Think one thing, do another. From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 02:23:18 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:23:18 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: <45BA9B20.6040005@optonline.com> References: <45BA0740.4000206@optonline.com> <45BA0F1F.50701@optonline.com> <45BA1707.3030309@optonline.com> <45BA1E46.2020903@optonline.com> <45BA2BC7.4010802@optonline.com> <45BA9B20.6040005@optonline.com> Message-ID: > PyGeo is interesting work. > Agreed. > My efforts to assist in provding VPython a future(lead actually, since > no one else has stepped up to the plate) is important work. > > Immodest enough for you. Feel better. > A little. But these are both esoteric back office enclave kinds of jobs, appreciated by an inner circle, but not getting out in front with a rhetoric. Do you think no rhetoric is required, or only that your role is not to provide it, only to kibbitz from the sidelines when others strut their stuff (e.g. Kay). > > And I dislike it surrounding the pontificating used to justify Algebra > > I, Algebra II, Geometry, Pre-calc, Calc (in whatever order), all > > undisturbed fossils for the ages, no chance of any Python unless > > we jump through stupid hoops proving over and over we're not just > > full of snake oil (got some __ribs__ in here too). > > So much of the Grand Fallooning sounds like snake oil and *is* snake > oil, that particularly those trained in mathematics - in the art of > plausibility - will react, and over-react. > > We agree about everything, except that we disagree about everything as well. > > Art Which is another back office job you have, to sing sweet canary songs as we dash down this or that mine shaft, looking for some door into summer. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Jan 27 11:24:53 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 05:24:53 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: <45BA1D5D.50102@solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu> References: <45BA0740.4000206@optonline.com> <45BA0F1F.50701@optonline.com> <45BA1707.3030309@optonline.com> <45BA1D5D.50102@solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <45BB2875.4080600@optonline.com> Ivan Krsti? wrote: > > If you're willing to discuss "picking on children," I think your best > bet is to throw on a pair of jeans and a T-shirt and show up at PyCon, > any offense to your fashion sense notwithstanding. I can't speak for the > other two speakers, but I won't be talking about eLearning at all. Won't > even mention it, really. Well there is another issue, in truth. Not totally irrelevant to the OLPC as it happens. The dates of PyCon2007 happen to fall over my son's birthday. He is off in the bush - teaching. But I am hoping there will be some effort to make contact with him on that day. Not sure I want to be out-of-town. You bring a kid up to learn how to take care of No. 1, and look what he does to you ;) Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Jan 27 13:20:36 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 07:20:36 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: References: <45BA0740.4000206@optonline.com> <45BA0F1F.50701@optonline.com> <45BA1707.3030309@optonline.com> <45BA1E46.2020903@optonline.com> <45BA2BC7.4010802@optonline.com> <45BA9B20.6040005@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45BB4394.2070109@optonline.com> kirby urner wrote: > > A little. But these are both esoteric back office enclave kinds of > jobs, appreciated by an inner circle, but not getting out in front > with a rhetoric. Do you think no rhetoric is required, or only that > your role is not to provide it, only to kibbitz from the sidelines when > others strut their stuff (e.g. Kay). I am trying to make the argument that strutting one's stuff in the way of Kay is counterproductive - even assuming one's goals are Kay's. My starting premise is that I am typical. In a somewhat atypical way, but typical nonetheless. In matters of education my ear is attuned to those having "inclination towards" kinds of ideas. It suggests to me a mature mind, with a scientific bent, in some touch with the state-of-the-art. Much confidence suggests pathology. To my ear, as audience. In the theater we call it "giving notes". Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 18:51:11 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:51:11 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: <45BB4394.2070109@optonline.com> References: <45BA0F1F.50701@optonline.com> <45BA1707.3030309@optonline.com> <45BA1E46.2020903@optonline.com> <45BA2BC7.4010802@optonline.com> <45BA9B20.6040005@optonline.com> <45BB4394.2070109@optonline.com> Message-ID: > Much confidence suggests pathology. > > To my ear, as audience. > > In the theater we call it "giving notes". > > Art I know what yer sayin', but I think we also need freaks (takes one to know one?) of various stripes, and get them in geekdom as anywhere, pretty much by definition. We've inherited Kay, we should find a way to "use" that momentum in some noncynical way (i.e. he appreciates it), to the extent his vector (trajectory) is on a path of real work potential from the standpoint of Python Nation. Now I realize the above begs a lot of questions (what's Python Nation pray tell? -- I always say "right next to the Republic of Perl"). But I think there's more to get from a synergy with Kay than a lot of fractiousness. He actually appreciates Python. He likes the language. He wrote a decent baby Logo in JavaScript while recovering from back surgery or one of those. He's not just a goof off. We oughta be able to work with the guy, is my attitude. Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Jan 27 19:38:06 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:38:06 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: References: <45BA0F1F.50701@optonline.com> <45BA1707.3030309@optonline.com> <45BA1E46.2020903@optonline.com> <45BA2BC7.4010802@optonline.com> <45BA9B20.6040005@optonline.com> <45BB4394.2070109@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45BB9C0E.6040106@optonline.com> kirby urner wrote: > We oughta > be able to work with the guy, is my attitude. I wouldn't begin to know how to participate in a discussion that he is engineering. The very fundamental ground rules of discourse within 412 miles of him are not acceptable to me. I have questions. He has answers. But they are not and will never be the answers to *my* questions. Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 19:47:25 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:47:25 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: <45BB9C0E.6040106@optonline.com> References: <45BA1E46.2020903@optonline.com> <45BA2BC7.4010802@optonline.com> <45BA9B20.6040005@optonline.com> <45BB4394.2070109@optonline.com> <45BB9C0E.6040106@optonline.com> Message-ID: On 1/27/07, Arthur wrote: > kirby urner wrote: > > We oughta > > be able to work with the guy, is my attitude. > > I wouldn't begin to know how to participate in a discussion that he is > engineering. The very fundamental ground rules of discourse within 412 > miles of him are not acceptable to me. And that's completely OK. There's no requirement any given two should get along. I just don't see the need to waste any time on whether Kay is inside or outside Python Nation. He's a VIP guest, perhaps a citizen by now. The law is unclear. Our BDFL wisely focuses on the language itself (over which he retains considerable power), and I advise the Minister of Education to keep the alliance going with our neighbor computer languages, as our common enemy is this cork in the bottle which keeps kids the prisoner of the personal calculator fanatics. They should have the choice to break free, and into the wilds of "gnu math" (an invented meme in geek culture). Kirby From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sat Jan 27 19:55:25 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:55:25 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: References: <45BA1E46.2020903@optonline.com> <45BA2BC7.4010802@optonline.com> <45BA9B20.6040005@optonline.com> <45BB4394.2070109@optonline.com> <45BB9C0E.6040106@optonline.com> Message-ID: <45BBA01D.7060102@optonline.com> kirby urner wrote: > I advise the Minister of > Education to keep the alliance going with our neighbor computer languages, > as our common enemy is this cork in the bottle which keeps kids the > prisoner of the personal calculator fanatics. They should have the choice > to break free, and into the wilds of "gnu math" (an invented meme in geek > culture). And I am advising otherwise, with much the same goal. Knowing that if the alternative presented to me, for my students, was the personal calculator, or constructivist voodoo of the Kayian flavor, they'd be stuck with the calculator. We need to disassociate, and be the Third Way. Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 20:25:20 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:25:20 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos) In-Reply-To: <45BBA01D.7060102@optonline.com> References: <45BA2BC7.4010802@optonline.com> <45BA9B20.6040005@optonline.com> <45BB4394.2070109@optonline.com> <45BB9C0E.6040106@optonline.com> <45BBA01D.7060102@optonline.com> Message-ID: > And I am advising otherwise, with much the same goal. Knowing that if > the alternative presented to me, for my students, was the personal > calculator, or constructivist voodoo of the Kayian flavor, they'd be > stuck with the calculator. I don't see those as the choices. Schools are free to experiment with computer languages however. I leave them to flounder, figure out what works best within whatever subculture. Waldorf will do it the Waldorf Way and so on. Silicon Forest ain't waiting for "broad agreement" to develop, duh. > We need to disassociate, and be the Third Way. > > Art I'm just not planning to waste any time fighting with Kay, haven't started, don't have plans to start. Kusasa type Python comes *after* an immersion phase, wherein kids (young adults by now) are mature enough to escape any one particular learning environment or operating system. They're not about to be bossed by any minor league tyrant (rebellious Morlocks in training that they be). I see plenty of room for greenfield development. I see no reason to kowtow -- but a little politeness doesn't hurt. We don't want to scare off the tourists. The Python Community has a reputation for openness and friendliness to newcomers. I'd like that to not change. ...Doesn't mean I tune out your canary songs. Kirby From andre.roberge at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 22:20:43 2007 From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (Andre Roberge) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:20:43 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Crunchy 0.8 release Message-ID: <7528bcdd0701271320n60c704c2g6ed2a2029ad4507c@mail.gmail.com> Version 0.8 of Crunchy has been released. It is available on http://code.google.com/p/crunchy/ Crunchy, the Interactive Python Tutorial Maker, is an application that transforms an ordinary html-based Python tutorial into an interactive session within a web browser. Currently, only Firefox is supported. Crunchy is developed and tested on Windows XP and Ubuntu Dapper Drake, but should work on any suitable windows or UNIX system. Three major improvements have been made since version 0.7 had been released. 1. New editor Instead of a simple html textarea, Crunchy now gives the option of using a "real" editor, namely EditArea (http://www.cdolivet.net/editarea/). EditArea support syntax coloring and allows loading and saving local Python files among other features. Within Crunchy, it is set up so that the tab key is translated into 4 spaces. 2. Language support Crunchy now supports English and French, through the use of ".po" files. When running Python code, some error messages have been adapted/translated. EditArea itself support more languages (currently: Danish, Dutch, English, French, German, Italian, Japanese, Polish, Portuguese). 3. Graphical tutorial converter. Crunchy uses some supplementary markup to transform html files into interactive tutorials. Whereas previous versions required a tutorial maker to edit an html file "by hand", version 0.8 includes a tutorial editor: with a few clicks, you can easily add to an html file the chosen interactive elements and options for Crunchy. In addition to the above major improvements, the code has been refactored significantly and a number of small bug fixes have been made. Crunchy will be demonstrated at the upcoming Pycon 2007. Andr? Roberge and Johannes Woolard. From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Jan 28 12:09:26 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 06:09:26 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] And... Message-ID: <45BC8466.8070007@optonline.com> thank you all for listening. Art From ajsiegel at optonline.net Sun Jan 28 14:20:40 2007 From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 08:20:40 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Brother, Can you Paradigm? Message-ID: <45BCA328.2010106@optonline.com> The subject line is Eric Raymond's title of an entry at http://armedndangerous.blogspot.com/2003_07_27_armedndangerous_archive.html I don't read a lot of Raymond, and don't consider myself a libertarian of his stripe, but a somwhat out-of-context quote I enjoyed from this article: """ There are some books so bad, but so plausible and influential, that periodically trashing them in public is almost an obligation. The really classic stinkeroos of this kind, like Karl Marx's Das Kapital, exert a weird kind of seduction on otherwise intelligent people long after their factual basis has been completely exploded. """ I don't think it possible to separate the special role that history held for the intellectual in Marxism, and the tendencies of those who considered themselves intellectuals to give his thinking undue weight. I think the same is true with Kayianism and the geek. Art From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sun Jan 28 18:26:16 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 09:26:16 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Brother, Can you Paradigm? In-Reply-To: <45BCA328.2010106@optonline.com> References: <45BCA328.2010106@optonline.com> Message-ID: Hey, thanks for the research and pointers. Please, any time. Eric and I appear to agree on this word "smooth" -- unless his position has changed some since 2003. I'm not a catastrophist, waiting for everything to "break down" so something "big" might happen. I'm more into "upgrade while getting work done" type scenarios -- processing in the background. I also read the article he cites, pointing out that "paradigm changes" are the exception, not the rule. Just look at operations research. Kirby On 1/28/07, Arthur wrote: > > The subject line is Eric Raymond's title of an entry at > > http://armedndangerous.blogspot.com/2003_07_27_armedndangerous_archive.html > > I don't read a lot of Raymond, and don't consider myself a libertarian > of his stripe, but a somwhat out-of-context quote I enjoyed from this > article: > > """ > There are some books so bad, but so plausible and influential, that > periodically trashing them in public is almost an obligation. The really > classic stinkeroos of this kind, like Karl Marx's Das Kapital, exert a > weird kind of seduction on otherwise intelligent people long after their > factual basis has been completely exploded. > """ > > I don't think it possible to separate the special role that history held > for the intellectual in Marxism, and the tendencies of those who > considered themselves intellectuals to give his thinking undue weight. > > I think the same is true with Kayianism and the geek. > > > Art > > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From kirby.urner at gmail.com Mon Jan 29 19:56:39 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:56:39 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Another Mathcast showing off Python's powers Message-ID: Jumping off from The Book of Numbers by Conway and Guy, we explore a proposition of Euclid's, that the Mth triangular number, the Ms being the Mersennes (as we call them today), is also a Perfect Number. The purpose of this clip is to demonstrate how Python might form a useful hybrid with various math topics, providing cross-training in two disciplines: mathematics and computer science. This is an approach I've long recommended, based on field experience as well as intuitive factors. http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/perfectnumbers.html Kirby -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20070129/5128d604/attachment.htm From drake at lclark.edu Tue Jan 30 23:45:58 2007 From: drake at lclark.edu (Peter Drake) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:45:58 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tkinter window behind IDLE under Mac OS X Message-ID: <75F1935D-4DC4-4CD7-9161-F46A1AA205E3@lclark.edu> Forgive me if this isn't the appropriate place to post... I'm trying to write a very simple set of graphics functions for use by my (non-CS-major) students. Playing with Tkinter, I wrote this: from Tkinter import * c = Canvas() c.pack() c.create_line(0, 0, 20, 30) mainloop() It does, as hoped, produce a window with a little diagonal line in it. The problem is that this window pops up BEHIND the IDLE window. Googling around, I've found several other people who have had this problem (especially under Mac OS X), but no solutions. Is there a workaround? I'd just as soon get rid of the "Console" window, too, but that's less important. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer, Peter Drake Assistant Professor of Computer Science Lewis & Clark College http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ From kirby.urner at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 00:26:21 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:26:21 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tkinter window behind IDLE under Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <75F1935D-4DC4-4CD7-9161-F46A1AA205E3@lclark.edu> References: <75F1935D-4DC4-4CD7-9161-F46A1AA205E3@lclark.edu> Message-ID: Hi Peter -- In general, developing with Tkinter from inside of IDLE doesn't work well, because IDLE itself is working a Tk mainloop and the two don't play well together (they both want to be "main"). You can still use IDLE as your text editor if you invoke your Tkinter-using code in another process, perhaps directly from a terminal window, e.g. simply by entering the name of the .py module -- assuming appropriate #! and/or other file association infrastructure. Kirby On 1/30/07, Peter Drake wrote: > > Forgive me if this isn't the appropriate place to post... > > I'm trying to write a very simple set of graphics functions for use > by my (non-CS-major) students. Playing with Tkinter, I wrote this: > > from Tkinter import * > > c = Canvas() > c.pack() > c.create_line(0, 0, 20, 30) > mainloop() > > It does, as hoped, produce a window with a little diagonal line in > it. The problem is that this window pops up BEHIND the IDLE window. > Googling around, I've found several other people who have had this > problem (especially under Mac OS X), but no solutions. Is there a > workaround? > > I'd just as soon get rid of the "Console" window, too, but that's > less important. > > Thanks in advance for any help you can offer, > > Peter Drake > Assistant Professor of Computer Science > Lewis & Clark College > http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20070130/fd12f19c/attachment.htm From drake at lclark.edu Wed Jan 31 01:10:07 2007 From: drake at lclark.edu (Peter Drake) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:10:07 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tkinter window behind IDLE under Mac OS X In-Reply-To: References: <75F1935D-4DC4-4CD7-9161-F46A1AA205E3@lclark.edu> Message-ID: <9E9D5F0B-618A-4351-B96C-11B5C6E331AE@lclark.edu> I tried running this directly from a terminal: #!/usr/local/bin/python from Tkinter import * c = Canvas() c.pack() c.create_line(0, 0, 20, 30) mainloop() Again, the Tk window pops up behind the terminal. What next? Is there some command to bring the window to the front? Peter Drake Assistant Professor of Computer Science Lewis & Clark College http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ On Jan 30, 2007, at 3:26 PM, kirby urner wrote: > > Hi Peter -- > > In general, developing with Tkinter from inside of IDLE doesn't > work well, > because IDLE itself is working a Tk mainloop and the two don't play > well > together (they both want to be "main"). > > You can still use IDLE as your text editor if you invoke your > Tkinter-using > code in another process, perhaps directly from a terminal window, e.g. > simply by entering the name of the .py module -- assuming appropriate > #! and/or other file association infrastructure. > > Kirby > > > On 1/30/07, Peter Drake wrote: Forgive me if > this isn't the appropriate place to post... > > I'm trying to write a very simple set of graphics functions for use > by my (non-CS-major) students. Playing with Tkinter, I wrote this: > > from Tkinter import * > > c = Canvas() > c.pack() > c.create_line(0, 0, 20, 30) > mainloop() > > It does, as hoped, produce a window with a little diagonal line in > it. The problem is that this window pops up BEHIND the IDLE window. > Googling around, I've found several other people who have had this > problem (especially under Mac OS X), but no solutions. Is there a > workaround? > > I'd just as soon get rid of the "Console" window, too, but that's > less important. > > Thanks in advance for any help you can offer, > > Peter Drake > Assistant Professor of Computer Science > Lewis & Clark College > http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From ernesto at dei.uc.pt Wed Jan 31 01:21:10 2007 From: ernesto at dei.uc.pt (Ernesto Costa) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 00:21:10 +0000 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tkinter window behind IDLE under Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <75F1935D-4DC4-4CD7-9161-F46A1AA205E3@lclark.edu> References: <75F1935D-4DC4-4CD7-9161-F46A1AA205E3@lclark.edu> Message-ID: <9693A111-7A78-4B4D-B8FC-8E6C9024ABDB@dei.uc.pt> Hi, The problem is related with using IDLE because it does not uses processes or threads. In Mac OS X I installed X11 and use DrPython (http://drpython.sourceforge.net/) or TexMate (http:// macromates.com/). They both work well. DrPython is great for teaching and TexMate is a terrific general editor for almost every language (LaTeX included...) in the planet and you also call the Python interpreter from within it. While DrPython runs on other platforms as well TexMate is for Mac OS X only. Ernesto Costa On 2007/01/30, at 22:45, Peter Drake wrote: > Forgive me if this isn't the appropriate place to post... > > I'm trying to write a very simple set of graphics functions for use > by my (non-CS-major) students. Playing with Tkinter, I wrote this: > > from Tkinter import * > > c = Canvas() > c.pack() > c.create_line(0, 0, 20, 30) > mainloop() > > It does, as hoped, produce a window with a little diagonal line in > it. The problem is that this window pops up BEHIND the IDLE window. > Googling around, I've found several other people who have had this > problem (especially under Mac OS X), but no solutions. Is there a > workaround? > > I'd just as soon get rid of the "Console" window, too, but that's > less important. > > Thanks in advance for any help you can offer, > > Peter Drake > Assistant Professor of Computer Science > Lewis & Clark College > http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig From andre.roberge at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 01:37:40 2007 From: andre.roberge at gmail.com (Andre Roberge) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:37:40 -0400 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tkinter window behind IDLE under Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <75F1935D-4DC4-4CD7-9161-F46A1AA205E3@lclark.edu> References: <75F1935D-4DC4-4CD7-9161-F46A1AA205E3@lclark.edu> Message-ID: <7528bcdd0701301637n2dc836bbt88429725ef331379@mail.gmail.com> Possible apologies on two accounts: 1. I don`t have an answer to your query (as a non-Mac user) 2. I want to suggest a totally different alternative which *might* be appropriate, especially since you are teaching non-CS majors... On 1/30/07, Peter Drake wrote: > Forgive me if this isn't the appropriate place to post... > > I'm trying to write a very simple set of graphics functions for use > by my (non-CS-major) students. Playing with Tkinter, I wrote this: > Trying to save you the trouble of writing your own simple set of graphics functions... Have you had a look at Crunchy? http://code.google.com/p/crunchy/ It's still in development. However, it does have built-in graphics functions available. If you're curious, start it (it should launch your webbrowser - only tested with Firefox, not Safari), then go to the menu Tutorials -> Using Crunchy (on top), and from the left menu that will be displayed, select Graphics: drawing. Also, you won't have a console window ;-) If you find this totally off-topic, please accept my apologies. Andr? > from Tkinter import * > > c = Canvas() > c.pack() > c.create_line(0, 0, 20, 30) > mainloop() > > It does, as hoped, produce a window with a little diagonal line in > it. The problem is that this window pops up BEHIND the IDLE window. > Googling around, I've found several other people who have had this > problem (especially under Mac OS X), but no solutions. Is there a > workaround? > > I'd just as soon get rid of the "Console" window, too, but that's > less important. > > Thanks in advance for any help you can offer, > > Peter Drake > Assistant Professor of Computer Science > Lewis & Clark College > http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig > From rmalouf at mail.sdsu.edu Wed Jan 31 01:49:53 2007 From: rmalouf at mail.sdsu.edu (Rob Malouf) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:49:53 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tkinter window behind IDLE under Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <9E9D5F0B-618A-4351-B96C-11B5C6E331AE@lclark.edu> References: <75F1935D-4DC4-4CD7-9161-F46A1AA205E3@lclark.edu> <9E9D5F0B-618A-4351-B96C-11B5C6E331AE@lclark.edu> Message-ID: <8C837829-0B4D-41C6-ACD0-F571120F9437@mail.sdsu.edu> Hi, Are you using pythonw (rather than python) to start the interpreter? --- Rob Malouf Department of Linguistics and Asian/Middle Eastern Languages San Diego State University On Jan 30, 2007, at 4:10 PM, Peter Drake wrote: > I tried running this directly from a terminal: > > #!/usr/local/bin/python > from Tkinter import * > c = Canvas() > c.pack() > c.create_line(0, 0, 20, 30) > mainloop() > > Again, the Tk window pops up behind the terminal. > > What next? Is there some command to bring the window to the front? > > Peter Drake > Assistant Professor of Computer Science > Lewis & Clark College > http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ > > > > > On Jan 30, 2007, at 3:26 PM, kirby urner wrote: > >> >> Hi Peter -- >> >> In general, developing with Tkinter from inside of IDLE doesn't >> work well, >> because IDLE itself is working a Tk mainloop and the two don't play >> well >> together (they both want to be "main"). >> >> You can still use IDLE as your text editor if you invoke your >> Tkinter-using >> code in another process, perhaps directly from a terminal window, >> e.g. >> simply by entering the name of the .py module -- assuming appropriate >> #! and/or other file association infrastructure. >> >> Kirby >> >> >> On 1/30/07, Peter Drake wrote: Forgive me if >> this isn't the appropriate place to post... >> >> I'm trying to write a very simple set of graphics functions for use >> by my (non-CS-major) students. Playing with Tkinter, I wrote this: >> >> from Tkinter import * >> >> c = Canvas() >> c.pack() >> c.create_line(0, 0, 20, 30) >> mainloop() >> >> It does, as hoped, produce a window with a little diagonal line in >> it. The problem is that this window pops up BEHIND the IDLE window. >> Googling around, I've found several other people who have had this >> problem (especially under Mac OS X), but no solutions. Is there a >> workaround? >> >> I'd just as soon get rid of the "Console" window, too, but that's >> less important. >> >> Thanks in advance for any help you can offer, >> >> Peter Drake >> Assistant Professor of Computer Science >> Lewis & Clark College >> http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Edu-sig mailing list >> Edu-sig at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig >> > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig From pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com Wed Jan 31 14:54:02 2007 From: pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com (Paul D. Fernhout) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 08:54:02 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Exploring visible mathematics with IMAGINE: Building new mathematical cultures with a powerful computational system Message-ID: <45C09F7A.1040306@kurtz-fernhout.com> Just came across this reference which might be of interest to people here: Ivan Kalas, Andrej Blaho: Exploring visible mathematics with IMAGINE: Building new mathematical cultures with a powerful computational system. Learning in School, Home and Community 2002: 53-64 http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~ley/db/indices/a-tree/k/Kalas:Ivan.html Link to the first few pages: http://books.google.com/books?id=6smPFdJQy1sC&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=exploring+visible+mathematics+with+imagine+building+new+mathematical+cultures+with+a+powerful+computational+system&source=web&ots=zH27OaC5dl&sig=WmPwNW7KL5szKw5SXHu3fzJDnl4#PPA53,M1 Abstract: "In our paper we explore how programmable pictures together with events, parallel independent processes and direct manipulation tools can be used for building powerful interactive elements and provide rich environments for exploring basic mathematical concepts. To visualize the concepts we use IMAGINE turtles, the shapes of which are specified in the Logo language. Thus we achieve high interactivity in the resulting microworlds. Children can easily create such objects, control them, combine, move, group, match, etc. We hope that new features of IMAGINE will inspire math teachers and developers to create new visible educational materials." From the book: _Learning in School, Home and Community: Ict for Early and Elementary Education_ "Schools, homes and communities, including after-care centres, resource centres and libraries, have increased and acquired more technologies, and a wider range of applications are being used. Research shows that students use ICT differently in each setting. School-based technology use is often viewed by students as routine and disconnected from their interests and abilities. Many teachers are hesitant as to how to teach about ICT and, at the same time, integrate ICT into subject-based learning. Parents and the community-at-large have goals that differ from the goals espoused by teachers and students. This volume highlights the concerns of all - students, teachers, parents, policy makers and the general public.Major themes in Learning in School, Home and Community: ICT for Early and Elementary Education include: *Teachers' and researchers' studies of ICT use in school, home and community. *National strategies and policies affecting ICT use in school, home and community. *ICT tools designed to promote learning and the optimal settings to promote learning. *School and community responses to ICT use that promote the integration of ICT for all members of the community. This volume contains the selected proceedings of the Working Conference on Learning with Technologies in School, Home and Community, which was sponsored by the International Federation for Information Processing (IFIP) and held June 30-July 5, 2002 in Manchester, United Kingdom. Contributions from experts around the world, working as teachers, teacher educators, researchers and government officials, make this volume an essential contribution to the development and implementation of ICT policies andprograms for schools, homes and communities." [Note: Personally I do not think computers an apropriate way for kids to spend much of their time before, say, age seven.] Related with online content: "Imagine? a new generation of Logo: programmable pictures" http://www.ifip.org/con2000/iceut2000/iceut12-05.pdf http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:64_IL0jHjlUJ:www.ifip.org/con2000/iceut2000/iceut12-05.pdf+%22programmable+pictures%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1 "In 2000 we completed the development of a new generation of Logo environments containing a radical combination of the direct manipulation interface and rich interactive programming language." Not open source it seems, and so had dropped by the wayside or become marginalized? --Paul Fernhout From kirby.urner at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 17:15:21 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 08:15:21 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tkinter window behind IDLE under Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <9E9D5F0B-618A-4351-B96C-11B5C6E331AE@lclark.edu> References: <75F1935D-4DC4-4CD7-9161-F46A1AA205E3@lclark.edu> <9E9D5F0B-618A-4351-B96C-11B5C6E331AE@lclark.edu> Message-ID: On 1/30/07, Peter Drake wrote: > I tried running this directly from a terminal: > > #!/usr/local/bin/python > from Tkinter import * > c = Canvas() > c.pack() > c.create_line(0, 0, 20, 30) > mainloop() > > Again, the Tk window pops up behind the terminal. c = Canvas() already creates a Tk window, but it's not active or in front. Is there a problem with minimizing the command window or moving it out of the way after mainloop()? With your mouse I mean? Control should return to terminal when you exit Tk mainloop. In terms of launching mytkinter.py directly from an icon, no command window, there oughta be a way on Mac. Kirby -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20070131/bb589f43/attachment.html From kirby.urner at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 17:20:14 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 08:20:14 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Python for Math Teachers Message-ID: I'm continuing with my series of mathcasts, having so far completed: getting started looking ahead classes and subclasses stickworks hypertoons! euclid IX:36 cryptography They tend to build on each other. The cryptography screencast is my longest to date, roughly 8 minutes: http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/rsa.html Requires your browser to handle embedded Flash although these are also all available on Google Video. Kirby -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20070131/c7cfed77/attachment.htm From mtobis at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 17:29:05 2007 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:29:05 -0600 Subject: [Edu-sig] Interest in Newby lecture at PyCon? Message-ID: I guess it's a bit late to try to put this together, but is there any interest in putting together a Python for Newbies presentation at PyCon for friends and family? I have a two-hour presentation I've given a few times, so it would not take much prep for me to do this. It has some nice features, in that it gives people the flavor of programming in just one session. best Michael Tobis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/attachments/20070131/ecb3ab3d/attachment.htm From drake at lclark.edu Wed Jan 31 18:01:00 2007 From: drake at lclark.edu (Peter Drake) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:01:00 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] Tkinter window behind IDLE under Mac OS X In-Reply-To: References: <75F1935D-4DC4-4CD7-9161-F46A1AA205E3@lclark.edu> <9E9D5F0B-618A-4351-B96C-11B5C6E331AE@lclark.edu> Message-ID: <597F8822-ADFD-4F8E-9B59-C98E8EB46C1E@lclark.edu> Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone! Some responses: DrPython: tempting, because I've used DrScheme in the past. It seems a bit of a pain to install X11, wxPython, and DrPython, though. I'd like these students to be able to do work on their own machines in addition to in the lab. Crunchy: doesn't look ripe yet, but worth keeping an eye on. Launching script from python or pythonw: the graphic window still pops up behind the terminal. It looks like the best bet is moving the IDLE window out of the way beforehand to make room for the graphics window. Peter Drake Assistant Professor of Computer Science Lewis & Clark College http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ On Jan 31, 2007, at 8:15 AM, kirby urner wrote: > > > On 1/30/07, Peter Drake wrote: > I tried running this directly from a terminal: > > #!/usr/local/bin/python > from Tkinter import * > c = Canvas() > c.pack() > c.create_line(0, 0, 20, 30) > mainloop() > > Again, the Tk window pops up behind the terminal. > > c = Canvas() already creates a Tk window, but it's not active or in > front. > > Is there a problem with minimizing the command window or moving > it out of the way after mainloop()? With your mouse I mean? Control > should return to terminal when you exit Tk mainloop. > > In terms of launching mytkinter.py directly from an icon, no command > window, there oughta be a way on Mac. > > Kirby > From vceder at canterburyschool.org Wed Jan 31 19:47:11 2007 From: vceder at canterburyschool.org (Vern Ceder) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:47:11 -0500 Subject: [Edu-sig] Interest in Newby lecture at PyCon? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C0E42F.9000200@canterburyschool.org> I don't know if we would have the newbies around who would benefit from the presentation, but I would be interested in getting at least an overview of your presentation. Is there any interest in having that sort of presentation be one of the main topics we discuss as a BOF? Maybe Michael could get us started with an outline of what he does and the rest could offer their apporoaches? Just thinking out loud here... Cheers, Vern Michael Tobis wrote: > I guess it's a bit late to try to put this together, but is there any > interest in putting together a Python for Newbies presentation at PyCon > for friends and family? > > I have a two-hour presentation I've given a few times, so it would not > take much prep for me to do this. It has some nice features, in that it > gives people the flavor of programming in just one session. > > best > Michael Tobis > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Edu-sig mailing list > Edu-sig at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig -- This time for sure! -Bullwinkle J. Moose ----------------------------- Vern Ceder, Director of Technology Canterbury School, 3210 Smith Road, Ft Wayne, IN 46804 vceder at canterburyschool.org; 260-436-0746; FAX: 260-436-5137 From wescpy at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 21:40:45 2007 From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:40:45 -0800 Subject: [Edu-sig] [PyCON-Organizers] Interest in Newby lecture at PyCon? In-Reply-To: <45C0E42F.9000200@canterburyschool.org> References: <45C0E42F.9000200@canterburyschool.org> Message-ID: <78b3a9580701311240h1119226ao28552054d59dcf2e@mail.gmail.com> On 1/31/07, Vern Ceder wrote: > I don't know if we would have the newbies around who would benefit from > the presentation, but I would be interested in getting at least an > overview of your presentation. > > Is there any interest in having that sort of presentation be one of the > main topics we discuss as a BOF? Maybe Michael could get us started with > an outline of what he does and the rest could offer their apporoaches? > Just thinking out loud here... i have given a BOF like this at conferences in the past, i.e., OSCON, SD, etc. i have both 1- , 2-, and 3-hour versions, and generally there is an audience for such a talk. good luck! -- wesley - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001 http://corepython.com wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com python training and technical consulting cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca http://cyberwebconsulting.com